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At Boshoff from CRC Church shows us how Pharisees went about “Honoring” God

At Boshoff from CRC Church shows us how Pharisees went about “Honoring” God

At BoshoffThe recent invitation to debate sent to Mr. At Boshoff by Dion Knoesen was as a result of the below notice sent out by CRC, to their members and undersigned by Mr. Boshoff.

This notice was dated 16 November 2010 with the Subject: “Honour God”

We wish to state the reason for the intended debate with Mr. Boshoff.  We hope to either persuade Mr. Boshoff to give heed to proper rendering of the Scriptures for his own benefit and also to benefit those who are under his shepherding.

1Ti 4:16    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

On the CRC website it s mentioned that Mr. Boshoff studied at “A Bible College” for three years fulltime. Unfortunately no name is given to this Bible College.

In the last paragraph on this webpage the it says the following:

“He has been described as focussed, passionate and fervent in his hunger for the Word of God and explosive in his dynamic teaching of it. His positively dynamic and practical messages are equaled in their refreshing relevancy to their bold authenticity and doctrinal accuracy. “

When looking exegetically into his notice “Honour God” we have to question his “authenticity and doctrinal accuracy.”

For informative purposes the quoted Scriptures by Mr. Boshoff is discussed below in RED

As Paul wrote:

Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

—————–

Email sent out from CRC Church to it’s congregation:

From: CRC Christian Church
Sent: 16 November 2010 01:00 PM

Honour God

“Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19

The two most important books in your life are the Bible and your cheque “book”. The Bible is the revelation of God’s love for us and our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God.

In Joshua 7 we read about the only place where Israel failed when they crossed into the Promised Land. The only place where Israel suffered defeat because they tampered with the gold and silver (the devoted things) that belonged to God.

Your tithe is Holy to God. Lev 27:30. There are two principles that dominate throughout the Old and New Testament: First fruits get given first and; seed time and harvest. It is God’s purpose that should drive us to give.

In Acts 5 we read about Ananias and Sapphira that financially stood in the way of God’s purpose and suffered great calamity. God does not curse you; your actions open your life to either failure or success.

Does Jesus endorse tithing? Of course He does. In both Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42; Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing. When you tithe you shouldn’t even see that 10 percent. It’s God’s. Also we read in Heb 7 that tithing was before the law. It was a part of the Abrahamic covenant that still exists and is fulfilled in Jesus. He tithed to Malchizedek (high priest) 430 years before before Moses came with the law.

Your allegiance, your tithe, should be given to the church where you are planted. Mal 3 speaks about the coming of Jesus and actually the Holy Spirit. In this we see that we should bring the tithe to the “storehouse” which is your church. Give to God what is God’s. It is God who should be honoured first because He is the source of all your income. Matt 22:17-21

We work to build the kingdom of God, we shouldn’t work to meet our own needs. People can frustrate the work of God by withholding resources. Let’s evaluate ourselves and rectify places where maybe we’ve neglected to honour God with our finances. If you start today it is never too late.

This past week-end we saw 470 people giving their lives to Jesus. We are here to possess the Promised Land. Thank you to every one of you for working hard throughout the year and inviting your world to CRC.

We had a fantastic harvest event in Cape Town last week. We saw the entire auditorium filled to the max. Ps. Aidan and Sharon are doing a great work in that city. I believe many good things are still heading our way in Cape Town.

They have begun to lay the foundations for the Pretoria Building Project. We are so excited to see how things come together as we follow the instructions of God. As we are now in the time when we have to pay the contractors large sums of money every month, I urge you to give the money you pledged or whatever extra the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

If you still want to contribute please e-mail finance[at]crc.org.za

The Kids’ Party is only a week away. Please take part in this as we are going to make the day special for over 15 000 underprivileged children. If you would like to volunteer or make a donation please contact 051-xxx xxxx.

Be Blessed,

At Boshoff

—————–

A Critique on how to “Honor God” written by At Boshoff – Critique notes in red


“Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19 (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:   It is utterly disappointing to notice that Eccl. 10:19 is cited and interpreted in the way At Boshoff has done so in his notice to the congregation at CRC.

When reading what King Solomon wrote in the book of Ecclesiastes the basic understanding and proper rendering of the Scripture quoted is in fact quite the opposite, as indicated here by Mr. Boshoff.

The passage in context from the first verse (In fact the first chapter of Ecclesiastes) has to do with what the foolish do and the evils resulting from their actions in this world, which also includes verse 10.

Solomon’s message is one of vanity to all that are under the sun, which includes “Money is the answer to all things” What Solomon actually means in writing this is that man’s trust in money which according to man answers all things, is vanity. Their trust and security should be in God and not in money.

It is vanity of fools who rely on their money for all things instead of God.

Psa 62:8  Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.

Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

Psa 62:10  Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

Psa 62:11  God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.

Mar 10:24  And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

1Ti 6:17  Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life

Why do so many pastors not put their faith in God but rather exploit the people, after all they are always accusing those who do not have money as being without faith – yet when they need the money they rely on the people instead of their faith??

The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.]

The two most important books in your life are the Bible and your cheque “book”. The Bible is the revelation of God’s love for us and our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Where is this revelation in the Bible, that our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God??

The revelation I find is that our love for the Lord Jesus, is to keep His commandments not the love of filthy lucre. Our love is manifested in our obedience to Him, our trust in Him alone not in mammon and riches.

There are only two important books and that is the Bible and having your name written in the Book of Life.]

In Joshua 7 we read about the only place where Israel failed when they crossed into the Promised Land. The only place where Israel suffered defeat because they tampered with the gold and silver (the devoted things) that belonged to God. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Ouch!!! First of all it was not Israel who “tampered with the gold and silver” but one man named Achan the son of Camri who had stolen some of the spoils of looted booty of Jericho. (This also had nothing to do with his own money, silver or gold or any of his personal belongings which is referred to here Mr. Boshoff in quoting Joshua 7 for gaining money from New Testament congregants.)

Yes, Israel as a corporate entity was punished as result of the theft by Achan, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the personal wealth individuals were given by God, which were then somehow to the interpretation of this part of Scripture withheld from God.

Firstly this was in disobedience to God, because God placed a ban on personal gain from the looted goods.

Secondly theft was the cause of the punishment – taking things not given to you by God.

Thirdly it was the covetousness of Achan that was addressed in the punishment. Covetousness is what God warns us against throughout the Scriptures.

A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.

To be under the shepherding of someone who does not understand context and doctrine or does understand context and twists it out of context, is not promoted by Scripture:

1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]

Your tithe is Holy to God. Lev 27:30. There are two principles that dominate throughout the Old and New Testament: First fruits get given first and; seed time and harvest. It is God’s purpose that should drive us to give. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Some more doctrines lacking regarding the tithe very applicable to the Old Testament. Using this one verse for the purpose of tithing is not sufficient and there were many tithing’s applicable not just one. To understand this tithe there were basically 4 types of tithing in the Old Testament ONLY

a) The tithe to the Levites. Deut.14: 27.

The Levites were the “government” of Israel and due to them not having a share in the land allocated to the rest of the tribes, those allocated land were to use of their produce to give to the Levites.

b) The tithe of the Levites to the Zadokites. Neh.10: 38.

Now this is where Malachi is used to place unnecessary burdens on believers today.

First of all, tithings were purely laws given in the Torah or Old Testament. So commanding and condemning people to tithe today by quoting Malachi 10, is basically going back to the Torah or the Law, putting congregants back under the law.

Secondly the Scriptures used below to state that Jesus endorses tithing are totally out of context with regard to tithing and God’s Word in fact it refers to this as works by the Pharisees to justify themselves, something God loathes. In Fact God says woe to them that tithe! – will explain when we discuss these passages.

Thirdly when Malachi 3:10 is read and understood in context it refers to the tithe in a) above, the tithe in Deut 14:27 which was received from the tribes and given to the Levites. The Levites in turn were to skim off a tithe from this tithe (Neh10:38) to give to the priests attending to temple duties. So it was the Levites who were robbing God not the people.

It is interesting when reading the “Works Of Josephus” the Sadducees were the rich of the day who were using the tithes to enrich themselves. Josephus admits to this as he himself was a Sadducee.

Historically it is proven that the Sadducees were extremely rich due to the financial contributions by ordinary people who were forced to pay tribute.

There is no new thing under the son. Today’s Sadducees and Pharisees apply the same rule. The flock enriches them as result of their own rendering and contortions of Scripture.

The clergy were robbing God of tithes not the people, hence the rebuke to them in Malachi 10.

Have any of the Malachi 10 promoters ever read the following to any of their congregations?

Mic 3:10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.

Mic 3:11  The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

Mic 3:12  Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

The third type of tithe:

c) The tithe toward the annual Holy Days. Deut. 14: 22 – 26.

3 Times a year the Israelites were to attend Holy Feasts at Jerusalem and for this they needed to set aside a tithe of their harvests etc. If they were too far from Jerusalem they could sell the targeted tithed articles and turn it into money. This they would spend upon themselves and the Levites once they arrive in Jerusalem.

d) The tithe to the less fortunate. Deut.14: 28 – 29.

This is also a tithe to obviously assist the needy in the Old Testament.

Although a tithe in the New Testament is never mentioned in this regard there are many Scriptures which clearly say that the needy ought to be cared for.

When one searches for the word “Tithe” in the New Testament there are  two references one in Matt. 23:23 and the other in Luke 11:42 which notably is quoted by Mr. Boshoff and will be discussed.]

In Acts 5 we read about Ananias and Sapphira that financially stood in the way of God’s purpose and suffered great calamity. God does not curse you; your actions open your life to either failure or success. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Who is man that he is able to stand in the way of God’s purpose? Is God dependant on man?

Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

It is agreeable that one’s actions open you to success or failure, but to use Acts 5 as yardstick for failure and success is totally out of context.

I know of many people struggling financially who humbly adores God and has extreme credence in the Lord Jesus, but who realize that their own actions caused their calamity. Those being poor and suffering financially in this life without rejecting the Lord Jesus who are willing to endure to the end will be first in the Kingdom.

Although there are certain quotations by the MHCC I do not fully agree with the MHCC renders the following understanding with regard to Ananias and Sapphira which I could not have worded better:

The sin of Ananias and Sapphira was, that they were ambitious of being thought eminent disciples, when they were not true disciples. Hypocrites may deny themselves, may forego their worldly advantage in one instance, with a prospect of finding their account in something else. They were covetous of the wealth of the world, and distrustful of God and his providence. They thought they might serve both God and mammon. They thought to deceive the apostles. The Spirit of God in Peter discerned the principle of unbelief reigning in the heart of Ananias. But whatever Satan might suggest, he could not have filled the heart of Ananias with this wickedness had he not been consenting. The falsehood was an attempt to deceive the Spirit of truth, who so manifestly spoke and acted by the apostles. The crime of Ananias was not his retaining part of the price of the land; he might have kept it all, had he pleased; but his endeavouring to impose upon the apostles with an awful lie, from a desire to make a vain show, joined with covetousness. But if we think to put a cheat upon God, we shall put a fatal cheat upon our own souls. How sad to see those relations who should quicken one another to that which is good, hardening one another in that which is evil! And this punishment was in reality mercy to vast numbers. It would cause strict self-examination, prayer, and dread of hypocrisy, covetousness, and vain-glory, and it should still do so. It would prevent the increase of false professors. Let us learn hence how hateful falsehood is to the God of truth, and not only shun a direct lie, but all advantages from the use of doubtful expressions, and double meaning in our speech.]

Does Jesus endorse tithing? Of course He does. In both Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42; Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing. When you tithe you shouldn’t even see that 10 percent. It’s God’s. Also we read in Heb 7 that tithing was before the law. It was a part of the Abrahamic covenant that still exists and is fulfilled in Jesus. He tithed to Malchizedek (high priest) 430 years before before Moses came with the law. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Is Mr. Boshoff rightfully dividing the Word here?

To understand Matthew 23:23 effectively one needs to read from verse 1!

These were the Words of the Lord Jesus Himself. The Lord Jesus was warning against the Pharisees and rebuked them for putting credence or weight to their tithes. The Lord Jesus says in Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Lord Jesus most certainly does not say that tithing is the most basic thing in this Scripture. In fact He says woe to those that tithe and ignore the important things that God wants. The Lord Jesus in fact says that it is NOT the most basic thing. He says the “weightier” matters are more basic than the tithe.

Luke 11:42 Again out of context and basically the same rebuke goes out to the Pharisees who promoted and relied on tithing as the basic thing at the time of the Temple in Jerusalem.

I do not find: “Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing” What I do find is another rebuke to the Pharisees and Scribes who felt very secure in basic tithing: Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! For ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

What I have found in CRC when I used to go there was that they were promoting security in tithing, but the more important and weightier matters such as keeping the Lords commandments in our love for Him, I personally never heard in any sermon by Mr. Boshoff.

Is this not precisely why the Lord Jesus in His Word rebukes the Pharisees?

In Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 the focus is more on the “weightier” matters than the tithe.

A very repetitive part of Scripture used by Mr. Boshoff is Hebrews 7

Gen: 14:18: And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the highest God.

Gen: 14:19: And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Gen: 14:20: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand.  And he gave him tithes of all.

This is to “prove” that tithing was established before the time of Moses, the Torah or law and that tithes have to be given to the priest. To find out what the Melchizedek tithe meant one has to not only read this passage, but also read on to verses 22 & 23.

From verse 18 – 20 it is clear that this was not Abraham’s belongings which were tithed, but rather the booty or loot he had gathered from conquering the enemy.

Gen:14:22: And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Gen: 14:23: That I will not take from a thread even to a shoe latchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

Although he gave away 10% of the booty, he stated that he did not even want any of it, because it was not his.

It is also interesting to note that this was a ONCE OFF event, which never took place again.

Ninety percent and more of Scripture quoted for the purposes of pleading for tithes are taken out of context today. God says let few be teachers, because those teachers teaching the flock will be held accountable for what they teach.

A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.

James:3:1: My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.]

Your allegiance, your tithe, should be given to the church where you are planted. Mal 3 speaks about the coming of Jesus and actually the Holy Spirit. In this we see that we should bring the tithe to the “storehouse” which is your church. Give to God what is God’s. It is God who should be honoured first because He is the source of all your income. Matt 22:17-21 (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Reading Mal 10 from verse 1 rather suggests that the audience addressed by God were the priests as already discussed. The “storehouse” is definitely not the New Testament church. The New Testament church is the bride of Christ and not a building built with brick and mortar.]

We work to build the kingdom of God, we shouldn’t work to meet our own needs. People can frustrate the work of God by withholding resources. Let’s evaluate ourselves and rectify places where maybe we’ve neglected to honour God with our finances. If you start today it is never too late.

[Note:  The Lord Jesus calls for heed to doctrine rather than finances and I do hope that Mr. Boshoff would rather be obedient to the Lord in the weightier matters.]

This past week-end we saw 470 people giving their lives to Jesus. We are here to possess the Promised Land. Thank you to every one of you for working hard throughout the year and inviting your world to CRC.

[Note:  Figures do not impress God. One such an example is: Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The quote Mr. Boshoff uses in Matthew 23 was discussed already and to conclude, using this verse as a basis for endorsing tithing is basically in support of what the Pharisees promoted – That Mr. Boshoff is teaching here and to the congregation is absolutely the same what the Pharisees were doing.

What is important however and of grave concern, are the proselytes made by CRC. This is also found in Matthew 23 the chapter in which the verse occurs that Mr. Boshoff uses to preach the diametric opposite to what the Lord Jesus says in this chapter: Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16  Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?]

We had a fantastic harvest event in Cape Town last week. We saw the entire auditorium filled to the max. Ps. Aidan and Sharon are doing a great work in that city. I believe many good things are still heading our way in Cape Town.

[Note:  I suppose it is not worth mentioning all those pastors and lay persons who have left CRC and would like to see Mr. Boshoff repent of his ways.]

They have begun to lay the foundations for the Pretoria Building Project. We are so excited to see how things come together as we follow the instructions of God. As we are now in the time when we have to pay the contractors large sums of money every month, I urge you to give the money you pledged or whatever extra the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

If you still want to contribute please e-mail finance@crc.org.za

The Kids’ Party is only a week away. Please take part in this as we are going
to make the day special for over 15 000 underprivileged children. If you would like to volunteer or make a donation please contact 051-525 2883.

[Note:  It is agreeable that feeding under privileged Children is a very good work, yet the concern remains what these poor children are being fed spiritually when such doctrine as discussed here is being preached.

Hitler once said that if the hearts of the children are won, the next generation will be won.

It is also fact the “Church” of Rome has built a multitude of schools and hospitals and proclaims ex-Cathedra that winning the minds of children before age 7 will ensure that they will be won permanently for the Mother “Church”.  I see the same happening at CRC so feeding children is an outward appearance coaxing them into a greater deception of being taught wrong doctrine

Remember what James wrote; if the correct faith is dead the works mean nothing.

It is the correct doctrine that will ensure the correct faith – this is why the works may be more detrimental to the children in the longer term.]

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491 comments to At Boshoff from CRC Church shows us how Pharisees went about “Honoring” God

  • Chris

    Hi there,

    Was under the rule of At himself, the headquarters for this wicked sect, in Bloemfontein South Africa. Thankfully God showed me the Truth, His Truth, through human instruments. This for me is very well and good, but what of the billions being misled, in the name of our Messiah? It is for them that I feel sorrow, even though it is their responsibility to seek the Truth of the Word it sickens me that men such as the likes above mentioned roam free like a lion to deceive like a serpent whilst wearing sheep’s wool… Maybe he teaches this at his mighty men conferences? To be like a lion? yes he does.

    However it is not only him or his sect that deceives, the charismatics, catholics, Calvinists and all the other sects share the same principles. I will paste an article I wrote to shed light on this, they are all side of the same coin …

    The article as follows :

    This article is built on fact and fact alone, not my own opinions on a situation. If at any time you need confirmation on any of the information I have given below, all you need to do is request it and I will be happy to give you meaty and lengthy evidence.

    Definitions of terms:

    Dominionism – The teaching of the doctrine that states that Israel has now replaced the church, because natural Israel has been cut off from God. This is also know as Replacement Theology. The result of this teaching means that all promises made to Abraham are now promised to the Church. Another outcome is that for Jesus to return, all the lives on earth need to be saved ( A great Revival ). This sect believes that a special group of people will take over the world, because we are the living in the millennium spoken about in revelation, that Jesus is ruling the planet as we speak. This dominion is obtained by finding high rankings in the media, economy, political agenda and so forth. (5 fold ministry)

    Amillennialism – In Latin when the ‘a’ is applied before the word it means “no”, so this then means no millennium. Again, this sect believes that the millennium is not literal and that Jesus is ruling the earth right now from Heaven as He sits next to God’s right hand. All that is necessary for Jesus to return is that a great revival occurs that everyone may live of the principles of the Bible.Catholics as well as the reformed as well as the dominionist each share appraisals in these theologies.

    Calvinist – Believe in the predestined choice God made of who He would send to Heaven, good boy list bad boy list, believe in the elect (selected of God), hearers and the sinners. They use the acronym TULIP as a reference for what they believe see : (http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/10/13/unconditional-election-and-total-depravity-are-gnostic-teachings/ )

    The denominations of the large religious groups of the world at state :

    The Charismatic movement(namely the happy chappies) – The foundation of this group is set on emotional splendor, good music, good visuals and basically the “love of God” in everyones lives, about what God can do for you in your life. It is safe to say that the majority of these churches thrive on sensationalism (sign and wonders), with apparent pastors performing “miracles”, calling on the Holy Spirit and transferring in to his/her congregation which goes against scripture. (Ex. 30:32-33) This can also be called what they cal transferal of the anointing. Bible warns against signs and wonders (2Th 2:9) ( The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.)

    There is no doubt that these groups teach a doctrine of prosperity and what God can do for you emotionally and especially financially, with teachers like Creflo dollar, At boshoff, Rod Parsley and many more that teach you should receive prosperity from God financially or else you do not have Faith and do not walk and talk like a true Christian. This is only obtained and God only really has favor on your life if you give them the money in faith, this is complete and utter hogwash. In fact the Bible speaks about how possessions do not make a man.(1 Timoty 6:10) (Luke 12:14-16) (Luke 14:33)

    Similarity :

    To get back to the topic at hand, these smooth talkers also believe that there is going to be a great revival and that we need to get ready for this, as the world will be saved. “Pastors” speak it over the congregation, world, country and often say how they for see a great revival for God. This is contradictory to what the Bible teaches, that in the end times there will be a great falling away. Now as important as it is to win souls, these heads are speaking directly against the Word of God.( 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;)(2 Thess. 2:3)

    To obtain this revival they use key Dominionistic principles, that there has to be a great revival for Jesus to return – there is going to be a great revival. Secondly that the promises to Abraham concerning protection and prosperity is to the Church not Israel, which is why they teach that God blesses u if you bless the church. Another similarity is the fact that these Charismatic movements use the media, economic, socio-economic and political grounds to obtain this revival. In example :

    Media – TBN is only 1 of several 24 hour broadcasting centers for this false doctrine. There are massive satellite organizations(churchs) all around the world that broadcast their contorted message etc…

    Economic – These very large charismatic movers rake in millions if not billions of Rands/Dollars each month with their telethons and monthly tithing gigs. Another great fund raiser is there products of holiness (dvd’s, holy clothes etc..) as well as the massive conferences they have, this should be free of charge as the bible instructs.(Matt. 10:7-10)(Luke 10:4-7) Their luxurious home, cars and lifestyle in general is proof that they do not give a large portion of this to the poor as they should. (Deut. 14: 22-26).

    Socio-Economic – With their message of apparent good news and even better living they head into the poor areas and attempt to help these people with food and the good message, how ever this is short lived as that food is only temporary just as the false Gospel they are teaching. This is merely a campaign to win the vote of these people nothing more nothing less. If they genuinely cared about these people they would sell their large houses and go into mission stations etc….(Luke 14:33)

    Political – “Pastors” with the likes of Rhema have let politicians such as Jacob Zuma speak to his congregation and has shown a general fellowship with the man. This is going back to feudalism where the state and church were once one. Speakers such Albert Mohler have sign the Manhattan Treaty, which is tired into the UN, which states all the principles of “unity through diversity” (one world order).

    Important to note even though they won’t admit to it, it is clear that the Charismatic movement do not care enough for the instructions of the scripture that they have contorted it and even have members and heads of the congregation, that commit adultery and several other sins. HEAD OF THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT, contorting the scripture. They often put themselves on the same level as Jesus, ordering Him and His Holy Spirit around like waiters.

    Calvinism(Reformed church) – Believe that everyone has already been preordained to either go to heaven(elect) or to Hell(Sinners) and that all that is need for Jesus to return is that all the principles of the Bible are followed by everyone on the planet, whether it is the right doctrine or not. (see the link above). against scripture (Rom 8:7-8) That Christ only died for a certain group.against scripture (John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:19)

    They incorporate Amillennialism which again means that we are living in the millennium that Jesus is ruling from heaven, this means that all that all is needed is for people to follow principles of the Bible, even though these principles might be contorted and there is no urgency for these people to believe in Jesus for their gain into heaven.(as if these elect have been regenerated, they automatically go to heaven). This is why John Calvin enforced a very strict moral code onto his city, even though most of these decision where made by a council, that decide which is acceptable and which is not. He would burn people alive and execute them in several ways.against scripture (Matt. 15:9)

    This is why the Deutsch reformed and other reformed churches have councils who decide what goes and what does not. They have accepted homosexuality and along with it a mound of other sinful things according to the Bible. . This can be seen in methodist, Charismatic, Catholic and other sects of “Christianity”, whereby they contort the Word to suit their own vendettas. against scripture (Matt. 15:9). They follow what man says and not what God says.

    Dominionistic :

    Media: There has been a decrease of the number of youth that flock to Calvinism or the reformed movement, this is why it was necessary to repackage and repack it, to seem more vibrant. The new movement is called Neo-Reformed or New Calvinist. Mark Driscoll created T-shirts of Jesus as a DJ and several other blaspheming T-shirts. People with the likes of Louis Giglio, John Piper, Albert Mohler and many more now catch a gullible youth with smooth talking and visuals.

    Political: John Calvin was a student of Augustine, Augustine used an emerged state and church system (which is ideal if the doctrine is sound), emerged pagan holidays with Christian ones such as Christmas and easter. This is where Calvinism has its roots or motive for political agenda. It is just a matter of time.The Vatican is also stating to plant its roots in politics once again, just as before. Catholics.

    important note : Contort Scripture and create their own laws just as Charismatic, seek one large revival which goes against the Word of God and believe that all promises whether it is financial or protective is unto them, even though we as Christians do get favour, it is not the same promises promised to Israel.

    Catholic: The Catholic subject could literally be it’s own topic, however just for the purposes of these comparisons I will just scratch the surface of their doctrine.

    Dominionistic :

    Political: The Vatican for years already is quite a powerful force when it comes to politics, whether it comes to the Pope meeting with huge politicians, other religious groups or being part of the G-8. It is irrefutable that the Vatican have immense power when it comes to politics.

    Mikhail Garbachev (member of the soviet union) – ” Pope John paull || played a major political role in the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe… The event in Eastern Europe would not have been possible without the presence of the pope… which he knew how to play on the world scene”

    Alexander Haig(member of the CIA) – “The Vatican’s information was absolutly better and quicker than our in every respect”

    There are many many more.

    Economy: “The unique, noncommercial economy of Vatican City is supported financially by contributions (known as Peter’s Pence) from Roman Catholics throughout the world, the sale of postage stamps and tourist mementos, fees for admission to museums, and the sale of publications.

    The incomes of lay workers are sensibly better than those of their counterparts who work in the city of Rome. Living standards may be different, at least in their public evidence, due to particular sober lifestyle required.

    The Vatican also conducts worldwide financial activities, the Istituto per le Opere di Religione (also known with the acronym IOR and wrongly known as the Vatican Bank). This Institute has an ATM with instructions in Latin, possibly the only such ATM in the world.

    A souvenir shop on the roof of St. Peter’s Basilica

    The Vatican has often been accused by critics of being excessively wealthy, as in Avro Manhattan’s The Vatican Billions. However, the papal state has previously run budget deficits and obtains much of its money from international donations such as Peter’s Pence.

    In response to demands by activists that the Vatican should sell its artistic artifacts and give them to the poor, Cardinal Paul Josef Cordes asserted that the Church has the duty to conserve the works of art in the name of the Italian state and cannot sell them.” – Wikipedia

    This I believe is only the start of all their finances.

    Media: The Vatican hits news articles nearly every day, there are world wide broadcasts of all their annual ceremonies as people flock to the Vatican. How ever when the media try to expose these wicked men, they retaliate : .

    According to the Bible there will be a great falling away from the True Gospel, in the end times so we observe this today. Whether your part of the Charismatics, Catholics or Calvinists your still part of the same coin. Still believing in the same doctrine. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3)

    There is so much more information I would love to share with you all, several more similarities that all these devious sects share. They are parts of the same engine that drive the motor towards the end. So I encourage you to find you own Truth. (John 17:17)

    If it’s not the catholics that pray to mary to undermine Jesus as Lord and Saviour, the charismatics that put themselves on the same level as Jesus, Muslims that deny Jesus as Saviour, Satanists that pray to lucifer or the Jewish folk that also deny Jesus as Lord and Saviour it’s all relatively the same.

  • Moemsie

    Brilliant!! Thanks!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Chris

    Well you can sign up on the right hand side and join our little community that will give you opportunity to communicate with people (privately) or however you want. So if anyone wants to ask you anything they can send you a private message through the community. Also people looking for fellowship can find it this way.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Moemsie

    Oh that community thingie, I built just for you :) no really – the day you came online the day I started planning how to meet your guys needs. So join and hopefully you meet people who live near you!

  • Chris

    Hi Deborah, Moemsie

    Thank you so much will be sure to sign up right away

    God speed

  • MICHAEL ABDO

    Hi i agree with your statement.I was in CRC for three years ,was made overseer over all the cell groups.My wife and my self gave over R30,000 + for there(crc ) building project cash (receipt i still have).When we were financially sound.But when we were in financial need .THE PASTERS RUSSEL ,and JJ were aware of our situation they did not even send us a food parcel .I sent Ps At a personal facebook message ,by which he deleted me from his facebook ,his son also wanted to beat me up for “attacking” his father.they then just took away my cell goup and handed it over to one of my cell group member.For they told me not to touch GOD,S ANOINTED.THIS “church ” is just a poncy scheme.A farce! in one year they went on holiday 4 times ,Switzerland,Israel,Australia (2)and are on holiday again,number 5.BUT I DO PRAY FOR PASTER AT AND THE CHURCH MEMBERS SO THAT THERE EYES MIGHT BE OPENED

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    That’s the one!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael Abdo

    Religious white collar crime! That’s it. Because they go under the name of ‘religion’ they can get away with day light robbery.

  • Dion

    Hi everyone! Since At Boshoff has thus far not responded to my September 2010 invitation to debate issues around the doctrine he stands for, I bought one of his two books today to study – hopefully to learn something about his doctrine… After having read the 1st two chapters I have discovered that At truly believes what he preaches and that money is the driving force in his life, not God. I so much wish to meet with him to talk about fully submitting to the will of God as opposed to the drivel he believes (ie. God wants to bless you with wealth)and the drivel he preaches. I noted that he is not at all a skilled writer (either that or his copywriter is weak) and that he does not really know how to get his point accross – he repeats the same thing over and over and over without saying anything from a Biblical perspective and when he refers to Scripture he wraps thruth with so much error, it makes me want to cry because nothing contained in the 1st two chapters of his book “Live a YES! life”, refers to being born again like Jesus and the Apostles spoke of. Everything so far suggests that the reader should “come to Jesus who can’t wait to make you rich and bless you with everything you’ve ever wanted…”
    At if you truly were interested in preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost and to those who are truly searching, please stop preaching the lies which you so strongly believe – you are mislead and you are misleading many, and for this you are going to be held personally accountable! Please, stop your lies!
    If by chance any readers of this Blog know At, please let him know that many thousands are waiting for him to take a stand for his doctrine and that the safest and most balanced platform he could trust in is the public platform to which I am hereby again inviting him to attend. To those who may wish to share their CRC experiences with me, please leave your message here and I shall contact you. My brother in the Lord Chris,will also welcome your information/experiences contributions on all issues CRC.
    Greetings.
    PS. Hi Deborah, I trust you are well!

  • The best book I have ever read on the subject of tithing is “Tithing: Low-Realm, Obsolete & Defunct” by Matthew Narramore. I originally read it on his website, but liked it so much that I went and bought a copy.

    His website is: http://tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing/ and you can also get it from Amazon. If you have ever fallen victim to the tithe-teachers this is a scriptural study of giving from a biblical Christian perspective.

    I gave a copy to a brother, at a church we used to attend, and was declared a false-teacher at the next deacon’s meeting! Subsequently we were asked not to come back, but they still wanted us to keep our kids in their school!

    You expect the world to be angry when we talk about Jesus, but sometimes persecution comes from surprising directions!

    The pharisees don’t like it when you take a stand for truth!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dion

    I r well :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dan

    You can’t come back but you must keep your kids at their school (re: school fees I guess) lol. Funny.

  • antonio

    Thanx Chris, well documented …… i will always remember one phrase ….>> we will all be held accountable and will stand before our Lord, holy Son of God ….

  • Chris

    Hi Antonio and Michael

    To Antonio – It is a pleasure, but all praise has to go to God, for He is the One that gave us His Truth, without it we would be just like the rest.

    Michael – I went to school with At’s son, or at least was in the same school he was in, he does not fall far from the tree I can bare testimony to this. An aura of arrogance and no sense of urgency to stay on the narrow path could be picked up from any stance while observing his ethos or characteristics. Isn’t this another contradicting paradox when it comes to At’s morals and stance as “pastor” over a congregation? Titus 1:5-10, If At can’t rule over his own household correctly how does he plan to do so over a whole congregation?

    These are upsetting thoughts to the current members of the congregation, it is a sensitive topic and so when we approach them we have to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.Matthew 10:16 Harmless – Akéraios – Without any mixture of deceit.
    Wise – Phrónimos – to use practical wisdom in relations to others – to be sensible

    What these men are doing can not be silenced by our mouths any longer, which is why this site is so great in exposing a lie for a lie, calling a spade a spade. . .

  • Burning Lamp

    Debs, this goes off topic for this thread, but I feel I must issue a warning to anyone who might cruise over to Dan’s site. There is much that is good, but there is a dangerous and destructive agenda afoot over there and I would advise steering clear of it.
    One of Dan’s major issues is distorting Scripture to defend and thereby promote the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Why he feels the need to do this as a believer is beyond me. Does he love his fermented beverages so much he is obsessed with defending the practice of imbibing? Does he feel it is essential to the happiness and well-being of the believer?
    He seems to ignore the overriding principle of caring about the welfare of others over our own desires. The carnage on the road, domestic abuse, child abuse, sexual sin, and the list goes on and on. Just yesterday I heard that the major cause of fatal accidents in our state was NOT due to drunk drivers, but by those who had been drinking “moderately”. It only takes ONE drink to make one an impaired driver.
    The liquor industry is wicked and is a major tool of Satan. Sadly, most pastors won’t address the issue for fear of being too legalistic. He posts a series of correspondence he had with a pastor on this issue. Dan would have done well to take this pastor’s wise counsel but instead he spurns it.
    The Bible tells us we are not to engage in any activity that could cause someone to stumble. Anyone with a brain knows that no one sets out to become addicted to alcohol. Our witness and example are important. Parents who set the example of drinking in the home are courting disaster. I grew up in an alcoholic home and I thank God that He gave me a hatred for the stuff so I never was tempted in that way. But the damage it did to my home and childhood are still with me.
    Dan uses Matthew 11:19 to prove his point and say that Jesus drank fermented wine. This is a derogatory reference to Jesus for his association with the lower class and non believers. It was an ACCUSATION. Jesus was FALSELY accused of being a winebibber it never said Jesus was drinking the hard stuff.
    Jesus would never have made fermented wine at the wedding feast. Fermentation is a form of spoilage, a result of the fall. Our Savior would never have created something that had deteriorated – it was the very best grape juice, possibly what will be served at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Does Dan think we will be having fermented wine in heaven? Jesus would NEVER have contributed to getting anyone intoxicated.
    “Thus saith the Lord, as the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants’ sakes, that I may not destroy them all.” Isaiah 65:8 When the juice of the grape is still “in the cluster” God calls it “wine” and it is obviously NOT fermented. One must look closely at the Word –the word “wine” can mean either fermented or not fermented.
    Dan, you have NOT rightly divided the Word on this issue and you are playing right into Satan’s hand. May the Lord open your eyes so that you will not lose your reward.

  • Burning Lamp

    Regarding the topic of tithing, I do feel this is often misrepresented and misunderstood. God is a God of order. Yes, we are not under law, but grace in the New Covenant. However, to completely disregard the CONCEPT of tithing is like throwing the baby out with the bath.

    Personally, in our home we have decided a certain % of our income that is SET ASIDE for the Lord from the beginning. That is the baseline of sorts. That does not mean there is a limit or legalistic rule. It is merely a GUIDE to giving. Giving should NOT be helter-skelter – God likes plans and so should we. We should consider giving to be important enough to have a plan.

    Too often people who abandon the CONCEPT of orderly giving get sloppy about it and this is not God-honoring and may not even get around to giving anything at all. In my view God intends for us to SET ASIDE His portion and give Him first place in our finances.

    We plan other aspects of our finances or least responsible people do, should we do less for our Lord?

    Just asking the question……..I am suspicious of those who totally discount the CONCEPT of the tithe. Maybe this should be another whole topic for another day and another thread. I seem to be hijacking threads today, but I thought it was important to respond since it was brought up on this thread.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Tithing in the NT defined is GIVING joyfully. If one wants to give joyfully a set % and expects nothing in return…then perfectly fine. Others would then say to give joyfully a set amount but they expect 10 fold in return… wrong.

  • Burning Lamp

    You are so right. The key is the joyful part. I can give joyfully as I set aside a certain % to the Lord as a first fruit. It gives me great joy to do so. It also gives me great joy to give beyond that as the Spirit leads.

    The Lord owns ALL we have, and I think He is pleased when we put Him first before everything else and set aside His portion from the get-go. That requires forethought and sense of purpose. I don’t see that as legalistic if it is done out of gratitude and respect for our Lord. It all lies in the motives of the heart.

  • Talita

    Dion,
    I was leader at the womans ministry in Pretoria. We started an outreach and nursery school under the CRC banner. Sadly CRC did not contribute even R1-00. Everything had to come from donations and from the leaders’ pockets – and it had to be above our tithes – this was made very clear!.
    Nyretta was never part of the outreach, but when we organised the German TV station to do a documentary – as part of a soccer sponsorship drive, Guess who was first to be there? Yip, Ps Nyretta!,… and the true workers were shifted to the background, and was not even allowed there on the day. The cameraman of the news station got very upset with Nyretta, and told her that this program is not about her – or her church, but about the people and children of the community. What an embarrassment!
    The saddest part for me, is that the volunteer that ended up running the outreach project – at that stage battled financially, and was selling newspapers on the street corners – all whilst the pastors wanted to take all the glory, and not paying this woman for her efforts. Sad, isnt it?

    Bottomline – the Christmas parties, outreaches and projects that I have been involved with – the majority, and in some instances all of the money came from donations. Makes me think where does the tithes go to? and what about the offerings? As far as I know they do not support missionaries either.
    I believe that God will reveal His Truth to the CRC congregation soon, I just hope for their sakes that it is in this life, while they still have time to repent. (Some of Ps At’s teachings was that we did not have to fear the Lord, nor ask for forgiveness for our sins daily..)

  • Michael

    Talitha,Chris,Deon,Dan and Michael A…what an abomination…it is really so so bad.At Boshoff and CRC are imposters and are wolves in sheeps clothing…all their wicked, lying deeds MUST be exposed.
    This is our Christian duty.

  • donna

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    Debs, this goes off topic for this thread, but I feel I must issue a warning to anyone who might cruise over to Dan’s site. There is much that is good, but there is a dangerous and destructive agenda afoot over there and I would advise steering clear of it.
    One of Dan’s major issues is distorting Scripture to defend and thereby promote the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Why he feels the need to do this as a believer is beyond me. Does he love his fermented beverages so much he is obsessed with defending the practice of imbibing? Does he feel it is essential to the happiness and well-being of the believer?
    He seems to ignore the overriding principle of caring about the welfare of others over our own desires. The carnage on the road, domestic abuse, child abuse, sexual sin, and the list goes on and on. Just yesterday I heard that the major cause of fatal accidents in our state was NOT due to drunk drivers, but by those who had been drinking “moderately”. It only takes ONE drink to make one an impaired driver.
    The liquor industry is wicked and is a major tool of Satan. Sadly, most pastors won’t address the issue for fear of being too legalistic. He posts a series of correspondence he had with a pastor on this issue. Dan would have done well to take this pastor’s wise counsel but instead he spurns it.
    The Bible tells us we are not to engage in any activity that could cause someone to stumble. Anyone with a brain knows that no one sets out to become addicted to alcohol. Our witness and example are important. Parents who set the example of drinking in the home are courting disaster. I grew up in an alcoholic home and I thank God that He gave me a hatred for the stuff so I never was tempted in that way. But the damage it did to my home and childhood are still with me.
    Dan uses Matthew 11:19 to prove his point and say that Jesus drank fermented wine. This is a derogatory reference to Jesus for his association with the lower class and non believers. It was an ACCUSATION. Jesus was FALSELY accused of being a winebibber it never said Jesus was drinking the hard stuff.
    Jesus would never have made fermented wine at the wedding feast. Fermentation is a form of spoilage, a result of the fall. Our Savior would never have created something that had deteriorated – it was the very best grape juice, possibly what will be served at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Does Dan think we will be having fermented wine in heaven? Jesus would NEVER have contributed to getting anyone intoxicated.
    “Thus saith the Lord, as the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants’ sakes, that I may not destroy them all.” Isaiah 65:8 When the juice of the grape is still “in the cluster” God calls it “wine” and it is obviously NOT fermented. One must look closely at the Word –the word “wine” can mean either fermented or not fermented.
    Dan, you have NOT rightly divided the Word on this issue and you are playing right into Satan’s hand. May the Lord open your eyes so that you will not lose your reward.

    I read a good article on wine and it was interesting to note that there is two different words used for wine, one is for formented and the other is for unformented, and the one for unformented was the word used for when Jesus attended the wedding.
    I used to drink and today I think it is TOTALLY WRONG to drink alcohol of any kind for any reason…..God totally set me free when I became a Christian and I have never touched a drink since….that was nearly 10 years ago. I don’t allow it in my house, and I do not agree with Christians using alcohol. There is not ONE good reason to drink anything that has alcohol in it~!~!~ Those who teach others to sin are or cause others to fall risk getting themselves into deep trouble with God, they have to realize that.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    donna

    >> I read a good article on wine and it was interesting to note that there is two different words used for wine, one is for formented and the other is for unformented, and the one for unformented was the word used for when Jesus attended the wedding.
    I used to drink and today I think it is TOTALLY WRONG to drink alcohol of any kind for any reason…..God totally set me free when I became a Christian and I have never touched a drink since….that was nearly 10 years ago. I don’t allow it in my house, and I do not agree with Christians using alcohol. There is not ONE good reason to drink anything that has alcohol in it~!~!~ Those who teach others to sin are or cause others to fall risk getting themselves into deep trouble with God, they have to realize that.

    I totally agree

  • Burning Lamp

    It would be great to see Dan come over and comment. He is doing a huge disservice to the Body of Christ – thank you for your comments Donna – praise God you broke free.

  • Nathan

    Dion wrote:

    Hi everyone! Since At Boshoff has thus far not responded to my September 2010 invitation to debate issues around the doctrine he stands for, I bought one of his two books today to study – hopefully to learn something about his doctrine… After having read the 1st two chapters I have discovered that At truly believes what he preaches and that money is the driving force in his life, not God. I so much wish to meet with him to talk about fully submitting to the will of God as opposed to the drivel he believes (ie. God wants to bless you with wealth)and the drivel he preaches. I noted that he is not at all a skilled writer (either that or his copywriter is weak) and that he does not really know how to get his point accross – he repeats the same thing over and over and over without saying anything from a Biblical perspective and when he refers to Scripture he wraps thruth with so much error, it makes me want to cry because nothing contained in the 1st two chapters of his book “Live a YES! life”, refers to being born again like Jesus and the Apostles spoke of. Everything so far suggests that the reader should “come to Jesus who can’t wait to make you rich and bless you with everything you’ve ever wanted…”
    At if you truly were interested in preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost and to those who are truly searching, please stop preaching the lies which you so strongly believe – you are mislead and you are misleading many, and for this you are going to be held personally accountable! Please, stop your lies!
    If by chance any readers of this Blog know At, please let him know that many thousands are waiting for him to take a stand for his doctrine and that the safest and most balanced platform he could trust in is the public platform to which I am hereby again inviting him to attend. To those who may wish to share their CRC experiences with me, please leave your message here and I shall contact you. My brother in the Lord Chris,will also welcome your information/experiences contributions on all issues CRC.
    Greetings.

    PS. Hi Deborah, I trust you are well!

    Dear Reader.

    Couldnt agree more with the comments on given post.

    The Lord clearly states in 1Tim 6 3-5. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the doctrine that accords with Godliness he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with diputes and arguments over words, from which comes envy, strife, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Fron such withdraw yourself. now godliness with contentment is great gain.

    I write as i find it heartbreaking that the truth has become so tainted with a spirit of vein glory. In the picture God gave us of the Isrealites journey out of egypt( a type of the world) we must not forget that God did not bring them out of Egypt to take them to the promised land, He led them out to worship Him in the desert. The desert is a type of being in lack, call it financially, where only enough is to survive. This period, season, was there to prepare their souls for the revelation of Christ (Salvation), the mountain. Yet the hearts of the Isrealites was set upon the promised Land therefore they failed in prepairing their hearts for when God wanted to reveal Himself, yet they drank into the same Spiritual rock which was Christ but the word(salvation) was not received by faith. Consequintly they fled running 60 miles into the desert coming back asking for rules to serve God by, then the law came and God said in my wrath I swear they would never enter My rest.
    There is much teaching going on posessing the promised Land, but we shouldn’t be quick to forget that the next couple of thousand of years is the teaching of the Hebrews living in the shadow they did not posess the reality(Heaven)

    Now my question is if converts are tought to keep their focus on the promised land (earthly inheritance) are they going to succeed in pressing into Jesus to prepare their souls so the Spirit of true Glory can posess their souls? or are they going to suffer the same condemnation as the Hebrews.

    The whole of New testament scripture is focused on taking our eyes of the world, and if doing so the Spirit strips your mind of the spirit of vein glory and its only then when Truth is found in scripture, God came to take us out of the world and to sanctify us to translate us into His Kingdom of light of which only one experience of it will consume you on such a high level that you WILL loose all earthly interest exept bringing thruth to the people. Only then will you be fit to reign the earth with Christ. Phill 3 17-21 Bretheren join in following my example and note who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I tell you often, and now even tell you weeping that they are enemies of the cross of Christ; WHOSE END IS DESTRUCTION, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is their shame-who sets their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven from which we so eagerly wait for the savior our Lord Jesus Christ who will transform our lowly bodies that it may be conformed unto His glorious body(the body of righteousness) by the working by which He is able to subdue all things to Himself.

    1John2 Do not love the world or the things in world. If anyone loves the world the love of the Father is not in him. For all thats in the world-the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life- is not of the FAther but is of the world.

    Now love is the bond of perfection, if the abiding love of God is not in the soul the purification power of faith in Christ is inoperative, the cross is denying the world and seeking to be translated to the kingdom of heaven, the core message of what Jesus came to preach. But love being the ingredient by which it is done. Love and humility opens up the mysteries of faith , knowledge of truth that opens up the door of life. If converts are pushed towards earthly inheritance arent they then getting led away from the love of God?

    FAith is the substance of things hoped for the evedinece of things not seen( Heb 11) A huge account is then given on all the patriarchs of faith and I want to lift out Abraham the father of faith. This teaching of faith is preached as an application of envisioning a earthly want and keeping it in mind until it happens, yet if one take a look at Heb11 16 but now they desire the better the heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God.
    One can clearly see hereby what Abraham was believing God for, the heavenly country. He was focused on the mountain.

    Dear people Christ is the promised land, He is the one we should behold in singularity of mind hardship is the way in which the soul is prepared for truth. Don’t bent to the golden image, and if you dont and you get thown into the fiery furnace by the enemy do not be afraid for you will see Jesus standing with you so the flames will not hurt you at all.

    What does it help a man to gain the whole world and loose his soul?

    To those desiples of Christ suffering lack James tells us that God chose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him. Keep the faith expect the heavenly and you WILL be pleasantly surprised.

    People we need to love God with all our hearts, minds, soul, body and strength. A beholding(continual meditation or thinking) of any earthly desire contitutes to Idolitry and any such will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    Lets make sure and absolute dilligence of seeking truth and dont be misled with empty words, the eternal life of your soul is at stake. Cry out for truth and He will teach you all you need to know, He is and will always be the most loving teacher.

    Love you all! Remember we are all part of the same body, love one another with a pure heart, If you heart one another you heart yourself.

    Would like to hear from you Dion. I was also in CRC for a couple of years and God pulled me out with force. Yet my wish is not to crucify Pastor Att but I have great concern for the people.
    GRACE AND PEACE!

    Nathan

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nathan

    Thank you so much for you comment. Wonderful.

  • Chris

    I will never call At Boshoff a “pastor” because he is no pastor in a real sense and does not qualify as one. A wolf in sheep’s clothing yes!

    Due to the seriousness of the topic and the very obvious contorting of the Scriptures for gain of financial benefit it is worthy to quote Paul:
    Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    Cor 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    I have had to comfort many of his victims – people who had lost most if not all of their possessions, but worst of all their faith.
    It is extremely sad that those who have fallen victim to At Boshoff normally end up so incredibly broken.

    These people were all good enough when they tithed their 10% (Which by the way is not Biblical) and have additionally given offerings and free will offerings and the Lord knows what else taken from them as result of contorted Scriptures, but as soon as these people had a need the pastor turned a cold shoulder and ignored them – as in the case of Michael Abdo above. (Michael you were extremely unlucky wit CRC I know of people who were given some dented tins of bake beans, a broken sugar container and other limited rejects which was sourced from supermarkets.)

    I myself was in financial trouble while at CRC. Many of the pastors came to pray yet no relief whatsoever from CRC – that is not a church because the true body of Christ always suffers with the rest of the body. What does it benefit anyone if you pray for them and give nothing to sustain the brother or sister in the Lord.

    Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    Now it is At that preaches those in need have a lack of faith, hence their financial shortcoming but again we understand quite the opposite from Scripture – it is those with resources who do not assist the hurting believers materially, that are without faith.

    The last case I dealt with was not much different from the others I have had to council .The symptoms of the victims are always more or less the same:
    1. Broken homes where the husband or wife need to go and work in other cities and where children are sent away as the parents do not have the means to care for them anymore.
    2. Divorce or possibilities of this.
    3. The onset of substance abuse like alcohol to escape the hurt.
    4. Many of them consider suicide and possibly have gone that route.
    5. Normally these people will not want to hear anything about Christianity again
    6. Most importantly, all of the victims I have spoken to have told me that they find it hard to believe that there is a God after they had been let down and bankrupted.

    Now if this is the fruit and eventuality of CRC causing people to turn from God, one may only shudder realising who is the author of such fruits.

    Come out of her my people says the Lord Jesus!

    In support of Dion I would also want to ask people who have been hurt to contact us on this blog.

    I know of many people who would not want to because they are to scared and or they think it is unbiblical.

    In my possession I have an e-mail of someone who was At Boshoff’s right hand man for 7 years and I quote him:
    “You must remember I was next to him for 7 years and I know him in all his devious ways. I have seen situations where even violence was threatened.
    My office was known as the crying room and a place for damaged staff to be strengthened.” Also “Even as Luther believed that Rome was the seat of Satan, I hold similar opinions regarding that little kingdom up the road from you.”
    And
    “With most of us who got hurt in this manner , it was because we trusted and were therefore loyal beyond measure. Betrayal was never even a considered a thought by those who served and because of this, we never saw it coming from above. There were quite a bunch of us who suffered in this way. Some are in Cape Town, some in Pretoria , many in Bloem and even some in the UK. Even last year, when yet another vile lie from the devil came out against me from his messenger in a meeting with a pastor from UK, I was unmoved. This lie was exposed to the man who informed me and who has removed himself from further relationship with the Bloem Church. ”

    Please come out of the closet, we could not care less about At Boshoff except for his repentance and his salvation but remember the Scripture:
    Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
    Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
    Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

    Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.

    If At Boshoff refuses to listen then at least let us do something to stop other brothers and sisters in Christ from being abused, hurt and destroyed.

    We would like to hear from you and your support will not go unnoticed by the Lord Jesus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    I totally agree, people need to come out and speak up. Nothing to be afraid of, nothing at all. Paul warned against 8 people in the bible, he wrote letters about these people to others and forewarned them to be careful.

  • MICHAEL ABDO

    Hi to all, thanks to all your comments .All the time i thought i was alone.That maybe i was out of line and out of touch with this new modern gospel preaching.What i was reading in the Holy Scriptures just did not correspond with AT,S teachings.
    I posted this article on my facebook profile to friends of friends ,knowing that it will reach quite a few crc members.Which it did and i got some serious backlash from guys very close to At and his associates.
    SEE same comments from these guys

    Hi Michael Anthony,
    JJ Jackson commented on your link.
    JJ wrote: “One of the reasons many people will never turn to Jesus is because of the internal fighting in Christian circles. People trying to be more righteous when we have it already. Think before you put something so spiteful on facebook; is this helping expand the kingdom, or cause other religions to laugh at us while millions will end up going to hell. ”

    See the comment thread

    Reply to this email to comment on this link.

    Thanks,
    The Facebook Team

    facebook
    Hi Michael Anthony,
    Andre Lombard commented on your link.
    Andre wrote: “Who appointed you to become THE CHERIFF of tha Church,send me your appointment letter,rather mind your own business in your own small world you living in…..”

    See the comment thread

    Reply to this email to comment on this link.

    Thanks,
    The Facebook Team See Comment

    Hi Michael Anthony,
    Leriche Beneke commented on your link.
    Leriche wrote: “Slave vir Christus..? O e is n “follower en dissipel van Jesus” en michael my vriend ek weet wat die bybel se van toets als elke ding,spirit,preacher ens. En almal kan n fout maak,die feit en waarheid is,dat mense met jou mentaliteit so gefokus is op ander se foute en op comments soos bogenoemde wat jy van ons pastoor maak,dat jy nie die koningkryk van Jesus bou nie,ek sal voorstel,jy bid eerder vir jy broer AS hy dan n fout gemaak het in die slilte agter jou deure,i.p.v om dit n publieke ding op FB te maak,plaas honor jy hom vir al wat hy al vir God se koningkryk gedoen het,en hoeveel mense se lewens hy al geraak het,ek was my hele lewe lank in kerke,maar nooit n verhouding met God gehad nie,tot ek in Crc gekom het. Maar aan die ander kant michael,as daar nie mense is soos jy wat kritiek gee en die foute SOEK in ons kerk nie,weet ons,ons groei nie,want kritiek en opinies soos joune wys dat ons kerk groei en ons doen goed reg,dis hoe satan kerke aanval,en in die laaste tyd soos jy sal weet in die bybel staan broer sal teen broer draai,so ons verwag optredes soos joune,want ons weet ons lewe in die eindtyd. Ek stel voor jy sit iets op FB wat Christene sterker sal maak en saam sal staan,i.p.v om foute by ander te soek en negatiewe kommentaar te gee. Jesuslove Leriche”

    See the comment thread

    Reply to this email to comment on this link.

    Thanks,
    The Facebook Team See Comment

    The sad part is that some of these people have become so blind to the deception and lies of At Boshoff.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    Nope you are not alone. I have received a few emails from a few people who were in dia-straits because of this mans teaching. Chris would like to contact you via email, can I give him your email address?

  • MICHAEL ABDO

    Deborah yes you may.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    Thank you, I emailed it to Chris. You should be hearing from him shortly! :) Yippeeeee

  • Chris

    Michael Abdo your inserts with regard to your ex – CRC “friends is absolutely not uncommon. As always they refuse to address the issue and rather attack the person.

    An invitation was sent to At Boshoff to participate in a debate regarding the doctrine he teaches and those who agree with him may also join in the debate. Unfortunately no response has yet been received do partake in this debate not from At or admirers!

    It is very obvious that they always bark at a distance yet when it boils down to factual Biblical debate the only thing you hear is the sound of silence!

    First come to the table for the debate then speak out against a person – but they will never do this – it was and is so in America and it will be so in South Africa.

    “Who appointed you to become THE CHERIFF of that Church……….” is a common phrase or spirit speaking from Rhema. We were asked some years back “Who appointed you to become Generals………” Well if they had noticed and had enough Biblical knowledge they would realise that there are MANY Scriptures teaching Christians to judge, discern and to react against other gospels contrary to the Gospel taught by the Lord Jesus and Paul.

    So as an answer to these absurd questions – if our action on discernment is from the Gospel, coincides with the Gospel and the Gospel is revealed by the Holy Spirit then the Gospel and the Holy Spirit gives believers the authority to an appointment over heresy and fake gospels.

    There is at least one comment that I find partly agreeable on and that is that non-Christians will find these arguments amusing as well as to their advantage to promote their own religions of which the Muslims do to promote Islam – which is unfortunate.

    On the other hand the falseness of cults such as CRC are also constantly used by these same people in the same manner for the same purpose.

    Being a Christian in the true sense of Biblical Christianity requires of us to expose the works contrary to the Gospel and to avoid such gospels and to shut the mouths of those who teach false gospels for the sake of gain.

    Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

    Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.

    Etcetera……..etcetera……….etcetera!

    Thank you Michael Abdo and the others who are willing to obey the Gospel of the Lord Jesus and to mark those who have another gospel teaching things they aught not to for filthy lucre, to avoid them and to stop their mouths who subvert houses teaching things for gain.

    You are welcome to post this on Facebook as well.

  • Meg

    I found that I was wrong about judging others,(see
    EDITED: URL REMOVED ), and I apologized of that. I learned that judging about others about people’s teaching and I found that all people are not perfect about their teachings but they teaching the true Gospel and I should not have no business judging them. Only God’s words are is perfect. Also I should not have no business judging other false preachers but I hope that the ture Gospel will save them. I should be use discernment, but not judging them. If somebody read some of my previous posts about me judging other people and offened by it, I say I apologized for it I hope that you forgive me for it. This is my last time posting my comments here and I whish you the best. I’m moving on.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Meg

    Wow have you only been lied too. Of course you can judge others, in fact the bible COMMANDS IT! The difference is this:

    As Christians We Must Judge Righteously

    As Christians we do not judge a person’s life, i.e., sin, because we are all sinners (Matt 7:1)., we judge righteously according to the Word of God. The Bible commands us to judge fellow Christians teachings and their fruit. Those in the church we are to judge according to the Word of God. Those outside of the church we show them the error of their ways, preach the gospel to them and then leave them in God’s hands. We are also commanded to judge/test their teachings/doctrine to make sure it is correct and that it ties up with scripture.

    There are many verses in the bible where we are told to JUDGE/TEST:

    ———–

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 (Amplified Bible)

    21But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.

    ———–

    Matthew 7:15-20 (Amplified Bible)

    15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.

    16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?

    17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.

    18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].

    19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.

    20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

    ———–

    1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (Amplified Bible)

    12What [business] of mine is it and what right have I to judge outsiders? Is it not those inside [the church] upon whom you are to pass disciplinary judgment [passing censuring sentence on them as the facts require]?

    13God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside. Drive out that wicked one from among you [expel him from your church].

    ———–

    1 Corinthians 14:29 (Amplified Bible)

    29 So let two or three prophets speak [those inspired to preach or teach], while the rest pay attention and weigh and discern what is said.

    ———–

    John 7:24 (Amplified Bible)

    24Be honest in your judgment and do not decide at a glance (superficially and by appearances); but judge fairly and righteously.

    ———–

    Titus 1:9-16 (Amplified Bible)

    9He must hold fast to the sure and trustworthy Word of God as he was taught it, so that he may be able both to give stimulating instruction and encouragement in sound (wholesome) doctrine and to refute and convict those who contradict and oppose it [showing the wayward their error].

    10For there are many disorderly and unruly men who are idle (vain, empty) and misleading talkers and self-deceivers and deceivers of others. [This is true] especially of those of the circumcision party [who have come over from Judaism].

    11Their mouths must be stopped, for they are mentally distressing and subverting whole families by teaching what they ought not to teach, for the purpose of getting base advantage and disreputable gain.

    12One of their [very] number, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, hurtful beasts, idle and lazy gluttons.

    13And this account of them is [really] true. Because it is [true], rebuke them sharply [deal sternly, even severely with them], so that they may be sound in the faith and free from error,

    14[And may show their soundness by] ceasing to give attention to Jewish myths and fables or to rules [laid down] by [mere] men who reject and turn their backs on the Truth.

    15To the pure [in heart and conscience] all things are pure, but to the defiled and corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are defiled and polluted.

    16They profess to know God [to recognize, perceive, and be acquainted with Him], but deny and disown and renounce Him by what they do; they are detestable and loathsome, unbelieving and disobedient and disloyal and rebellious, and [they are] unfit and worthless for good work (deed or enterprise) of any kind.

    ———–

    1 John 4 (Amplified Bible)

    1BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test) the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Meg

    Do Not Tolerate Wicked People

    To Christians facing hardships, told not to question these liars; don’t lose heart. Jesus knows what we are going through – keep standing strong.

    The below scripture:

    Clearly tells us we are not to tolerate wicked men
    Clearly tells us we are to TEST (1 John 4:1-6)
    Clearly tells us we are to CRITICALLY APPRAISE
    Jesus warns us about these so called ‘apostles’ who are nothing but liars and impostors.
    We are told to MARK those who cause division (Romans 16:17-18)

    Revelation 2:2-3 (Amplified Bible)
    2 I know your industry and activities, laborious toil and trouble, and your patient endurance, and how you cannot tolerate wicked [men] and have tested and critically appraised those who call [themselves] apostles (special messengers of Christ) and yet are not, and have found them to be impostors and liars.
    3 I know you are enduring patiently and are bearing up for My name’s sake, and you have not fainted or become exhausted or grown weary.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Meg

    Mark Them Which Cause Division

    Romans 16:17-18 (King James Version)
    17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
    18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

  • Burning Lamp

    Meg, if after that you are not convinced, may God have mercy upon you. I suppose if you see someone being attacked by a wolf you would stand by and watch? It is the same thing with a spiritual wolf who is out to get the sheep. You only care about yourself Meg – you watch out for yourself and forget the rest of your brethren who are ravaged and damaged because you stayed silent and didn’t try to warn them.

    Please think about that Meg!!

  • Chris

    Hi Debs, the study of judge not and the different Greek meanings like Ankrino, Diakrino, Krino, Krites, Hupokrites, Kritikos, Krites etcetera really helped me in discerning the whole truth regarding not judging in the body of Christ His Bride.

    In context of what you said above to help Meg understand is absolutely correct. I do hope others will see the effectiveness of this topic.

    It is the teaching of weak Christians which lead to a non-critical attitude. This is a tool and great deception used by Satan to make believers undiscerning hence the apostasy the Bride of Christ becomes victim to in the last days as shown in 1Tim4 and 2 Tim3.
    It will be those not discerned with discernment that will easily follow wrong doctrine and ultimately the beast of Rev.13.
    These are harsh things to say, but one cannot avoid what is written in the Word of the Lord.
    Keep watch as the time draws to a close in the last days more so because in the last days the deception will be of such nature that it is possible for even the elect to be misled.

    Most of the Christians have aready fallen prey to the ecumenical concept of synergy. All together under the authority of Rhema, C.Peter Wagner’s NAR, Rick Warren, Buchan, etcetera, etcetera.

    We are not all perfect, but our doctrine should be, making us more perfect. Right doctrine will pead to right conduct and holiness is the will of God in our lives.

    1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
    1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
    1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
    1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
    1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
    1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
    1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> We are not all perfect, but our doctrine should be, making us more perfect. Right doctrine will pead to right conduct and holiness is the will of God in our lives.

    I could not have said that better. Wow. I like that a lot!

    Thanks Chris for everything :)

  • Burning Lamp

    Thanks Chris – I hope that Meg takes heed to your words and comes out of her deluded state. One of the first verses false teachers and their defenders trot out is the old “touch not My anointed” to insult our holy God thinking He has anointed false teachers to spread their lies.

    The more lies believed, the more believe lies and the more lies are freely told and accepted. What a neat way for Satan to get people on board thinking they are being so kind and loving. Rubbish, trash and dung!!!

  • Rudi

    I have also had some negative and sad memories of CRC Bloem. This was back in the day when the likes of At was walking around with that pathetic mullet of his and walking up and down the stage preaching in his wannabe american accent. My attitude towards At and CRC and eventually institutional church in general was actually caused by a preacher that was preaching there at the time. Her name was Charlotte Cronk (Deborah, do you have any info of her?). Originally from Texas I think but I see on her website she has an office here in Bfn as well. At the time the Toronto Blessing (or rather Deception) was surfacing all over the world and here it was no different. I mean, people were rofling all over the place. it was at this point that she was saying that if you can’t experience this so called blessing then it means you are not really saved and needs some sort of deliverance. She even proved it with scripture from the Bible. I cant remember which scripture it was, too long ago. But she probably ripped it out of context like they all do.
    For years I thought that something was wrong with me and eventually I completely stopped going to church all together. By the grace of God I learnt that questioning things in the institutional church isn’t a sin and we are actually the Church. We have finally been released from churchianity.
    Thanks for all the info and help I can get from this website.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Email from David
    Sent: 04 January 2011 10:09 AM
    Subject: CRC

    —————-

    Good morning

    I hope to see the preachers from CRC, Rhema, Hatfield, Lewende Woord, Doxa Deo, and others with the same name-it-and-claim-it doctrine accept that gentleman’s invitation to debate doctrinal issues. I also gave many thousands because I was tought from a very young age to give money to the church if I wanted more in return.

    When I was in deep financial trouble some years back, and I wanted to meet with the senior pastor at the Herlewing Sentrum church in Pretoria’s Roseville suburb, I was told he’s too busy I should see the junior pastor, with whom I met and it was clear to me that he was pertrified of the senior pastor. I was told to go home and pray and fast and follow a 50 day christian growth plan and on the 50th day I would be victorious and receive what I’ve prayed for. I had to complete the program to be victorious and I had to record my spiritual growth at the end of every day.

    I did all that and attended church more than ever, expecting to get back more than I gave. I drew cash from my creditcards on my way to church on just about every occassion I attended church and even I dipped more into my overdraft, I took money from where-ever I could just to pay into the church so that I could get the 30/60/100 fold returns I was told the Bible says I would get. I truly believed the church was right in what it tought me.

    I only got myself deeper in debt because when the returns did not come, I feared that I was giving too little so I increased my giving from my credit cards and my overdraft. I got dismayed and believed that the God I ran to was not interested in me or my problems; The God they were preaching about loved me SO MUCH, but he was not giving me anything because there was still too much sin in my life and my faith was not enough. I was devastated to learn these things and I became concerned because I had no-one to help me find and get rid of the sins in me and help me increase the faith I needed, but I had no-one and the pastor was too busy with all his meetings.

    No-one from this church, not anyone, not at any time, sat me down and explained sin and repentance to me. No-one from this church ever spent time with me to explain that God wanted me to repent; God wanted me and not money and offerings. The silver and the gold of the world belongs to God, why would He ask me to give to Him that which belongs to Him anyway? To this day, no-one has ever called me to find out why I stopped attending church; to ask about how my spiritual growth plan was doing; to sit down and explain this spiritual growth plan and its significance when I was not even born again. No one ever tried to pray with me to accept Jesus into my life.

    I simply went to church when I knew I was heading for financial demise and I went there and not the bank manager, because I was tought and sincerely believed that church is where one goes to when you’re in the cactus. Church will get you out! Church has formulae and spiritual laws that one can be tought the use of and when applied, you’re a winner! Church had formulae teaching that faith is a force that worked for God when He made the universe which guarantees that this force can work for me when I speak it and then whatever I spoke, this will come true if I also release my faith at the moment I speak the words of prosperity or healing or even raising someone from the dead.

    Well.., I lost everything I had and I had to start over again. I became a friend to someone who prayed for me over many years without me knowing about it and he lead to to the cross. I learnt that whatever CRC, Rhema, Hatfield, Lewende Woord, Doxa Deo, Herlewings Sentrum, and their ilk preaches is very far removed from the Biblical christianity.

    I know now that the leaders of these churches are deluded and blind to the Bible’s truth. They honestly and fervently believe the things they preach, because they were tought the things they belive.., just like I once honestly believed the same lies, they now and still believe the same lies. It is going to require a miracle to have these church leaders accept Dion’s invitation to publically debate their doctrine, and although I believe God still performs miracles, I am more inclined to believe that God, who is slow to anger, would rather this public debate be one of which the invitation is being publically argued about on blogs like this one so that there could be storms in tea-cups and accusations flown about and issues be stirred in people’s hearts and tempers be flared and attacks and defenses and counter attacks be made, so that the seed is planted to the point where more and more people in general could become aware of the current public spat, so that someone, in their inner being, hopefully many “someones”, hopefully “someones” from the churches I mentioned in here, where these “someones” start asking themselves ” should I not make my own investigations into God’s word and make my personal investigations a real and highly focused and intensive study of God’s word to determine whether the accusations against the doctrine of prosperity and so on has Biblical value…”.

    Hopefully these “someones” from those churches will learn the meaning of the word “eisogesis” and when they discover it means “reading a meaning into the text” they would begin to question their pastors more about the sunday lesson which he built on verse so-and-so from book so-and-so. Hopefully these “someones” would get to know the meaning of the word “exegesis” and when they discover it means “deriving the meaning out of the text” they would begin to open their eyes by way of allowing the Holy Spirit to work in them so that they could learn more from and about the word of God by studying it themselves as opposed to leaving their brains at the door when they enter that building they call church.

    Hopefully these “someones” would learn that not every one who “attacks” their pastor or his doctrine is trying to show how “smart” they are or trying to seek the limelight or because they’re “jealous” of the socalled spiritual successes the pastor has achieved and so on. (I am told that At Boshoff recently spent considerable time during three of his sermons telling the congregation how he’s being attacked by people “jealous” over his spiritual success. If this is true, is it not sad that not one of the “someones” in the congregation has noticed how At soeaks of “his” successes and God is not mentioned?).

    In closing, I wish for any intervention under the guidance and wisdom of God through His Holy Spirit, that could take place where thousands of the “someones” I speak of would have blindness fall from their eyes just like the Bible says.

    I support your call for the public debate Dion and Chris and Michale Abdo, and Talita and Dan and Deborah and others who support it equally but are too afraid to have their names mentioned when it really would help to fight the scourge and the dreg coming from church pulpits in South Africa.

    Every word spoken by the pulpit pimps will be something they will have to explain to God one day. Every word of support eminating from the mouths of the blind supporters of these pulpit pimps; these pulpit charletons; these pulpit whoremungers, every word of support given will have to be accounted for one day. In stead of investigating whether the truth is spoken or not, before jumping straight into defending the so called pastors, is something seriously required in today’s church, seriously needed as part of the very basics of discernment, it is something God demands of every one who claims to be His disciples.., but sadly, what do you hear..? ” Don;t judge others…”

    So sad when those who defend their pastors do not even know how to judge or what to judge so that the Holy Spirit could help them to discern so that they’re not being lead by the nose; not having the wool pulled over their eyes, so that they could quickly learn the difference between false teachers and prohpets and real ones;

    Go Chris! Go Dion! Go you fearful one who are afraid of being named! Stand together and fight for what the Bible says is the truth! Go all you “someones” still stuck in the churches that are leading you into more blindness.., open your eyes! In staed of getting upset, get down on your knees and ask for guidance. Read your Bibles to learn more truth.. “exegesis” not “eisogesis”. Read the other verses too. Ask your pastor to explain his teachings in totality, taking the rest of the chapter into account; taking the historical background of the book into account; taking the intended audience at that time into account. Ask your pastor to clearly show where the Bible says that the church you go to, has replaced Israel of the Bible; where in the Bible does it prove that God’s kingdom is already established on earth here and now. Ask him to explain if the Kingdom of God is already established here on earth now as you and I sit here on this day, why is it that Jesus is not here with us as the Bible says He should be?

    Sadly, many “someones” still stuck in the churches mentioned herein, do not even knwo what they believe, why they believe it, why they serve God, How God expects His followers to show their faith, how they are to live a life seperated or what this means…

    Sad.., so very, very sad that when they had the time and the opportunity to study for themselves like the Bereans did to see “if it was indeed so..” these “someones” in these churches elected to blindlym follow the pastor just because he sounds so good at what he preaches; just because he “would not lie to me would he?”; just because they find it easier to be told than to read it themselves.

    Sad.., so very, very sad that they will burn in hell one day; they and those who tought them the dreg they so willingly believe.

    ———————-

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rudi

    Are you not the same person who came on here a few months ago and gave me a REAL hard time and I ended up deleting all your comments? You have the same email address as the previous RUDI. Impossible to be a co-incidence.

  • Rudi

    Hi Deborah

    yes that was me with a chip on my shoulder. I have not been on this site for a while due to many different reasons. I have always valued the info I get here and therefore returned a few weeks ago. I understand your passion and respect it. Next time I’ll ask for an explanation rather than giving you a hard time! I promise!

    Ps. Did I really give you such a hard time? ;-)

  • Chris

    Burning Lamp, yes the “touch not God’s anointed……………..” this I have heard many times, but we need to discern a bit here. If At is God’s anointed then why is he teaching things diametrically opposite to God’s Word?
    I would think that teaching opposing the Bible should be void of revelation. Now if one teaches against God’s Word there may be two reasons: ONE – due to Biblical ignorance or TWO – due to purposely doing so. In the first instance there is hope but doing so purposely ??????????
    If the anointing is in CRC then why are so many people getting hurt there?
    I would think anointing would go hand in hand with the fruits of the Spirit???
    Concerning this phrase – it was mentioned regarding David and Saul at the cave in Engedi where David could have killed Saul but he did not…………but it did not stop David from speaking against Saul.
    The same with us – Speaking against those who teach false doctrine is speaking out against false teachers, not the anointed of God, but we do know that vengeance belongs to God hence Christians not called to act revengefully or physically.
    The purpose of speaking against heresy is primary to correct, rebuke and warn – this is Biblical.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rudi

    You know what the problem was, really? I was having a very tough time dealing with 3 people who were trying to get me to stop my blog, or take it over for their purposes. These people befriended me and when the time came called me a sinner for not believing in Predestination and taking a stand against Calvinism. I must apologise – I to be honest thought you were one of them (under another username). You picked the wrong day to comment and worse your topic of choice was exactly what these people were charging me with. I am so sorry. Now I really do feel like a chop. PS; I sent you an email, errrrr please ignore it hahaha.

  • Rudi

    Deborah

    I made a study of Calvinism, TULIP and predestination about a year ago. That is the very last thing I would want you to accept, preach or endorse!
    I havent received any mail, maybe you left out the dot in the first part of the mail?
    Anywho, to come back to my request earlier, do you have any info re Charlotte Cronk? I see she is friends with Kim Clements and that already has a few alarm lights going off but thought you might have some more info. I also see some people on this blog mention Doxa Deo. This was the last institutional church my wife and I attended before finally giving up on churchianity. I have heard many a scary story of their visionary leader, Alan Platt. Do you have any posts or info on him / Doxa Deo? I know you are stuck in the bush somewhere in dark Africa so when you have time in between the beautiful sunsets and early morning makorro trips I would like to hear what you know!
    Enjoy your last few days and safe journey’s!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rudi

    I have heard of Charlotte Cronk. I have not heard of Alan Plattt. But gimme time and I will have articles up on all of those you mention. I am happy you don’t want me to endorse Calvinism. Made my day!

    I will be back home soon, so yes, I will get cracking then. My signal strength is very weak here. When the sky gets cloudy my signal disappears… I say no more.

    Welcome Rudi :)

  • Michael

    What I have read here…ie letter from David and those guys that have been affected by CRC,At Boshoff and his gang brings back very bad memories…don’t worry these charlatans are far from being annointed…on the contrary they are agents of darkness,deceipt,theft and scullduggery…in fact this term “Gods annointed” does not apply to man and nobody can claim this as it is vanity of the highest degree…we the truly saved are all equal in the eyes of the Lord…there is no respecter of persons…God simply loves us in an indescribable way.
    It is so evil to manipulate a believer of his money by these sickening methods…getting into debt leads to dishonesty and sin. God certainly does not use the mammon monetry system to get His will done. This is so evil and a huge lie from the pit of hell itself. Being poor is not a sin. The only way God answers your needs is if you are honest and work your best to His glory He will answer your needs accurately…excess and indulgence (spoiling) is not a blessing but a trap from the evil rulers under Satan.

  • Michael

    Chris stated…We are not all perfect, but our doctrine should be, making us more perfect. Right doctrine will pead to right conduct and holiness is the will of God in our lives.

    Excellent summing up of what this blog is all about…Deb’s take encouragement that the Lord is in this work.What you have been called to do is not easy but very testing…taking on the forces of hell and Satan and the multitude of evil spirits that are very prevailent in the church today…this is real spiritual warfare and yes Deb’s you are never going to be popular but take heart neither was the Lord Jesus Christ.
    I have been a child of God for many years and became also hooked and involved in the charismatic movement but by the grace of God never felt comfortable with preachers like Benny Hinn,Creflo Dollar,Hagan,and Ray McCauley etc. The warning lights have been flashing for too long now…Deb’s it was your blog that God has used to bring me back into correct doctrinal focus…thank you for your courage and commitment…a rare quality today and what has happened is that God is using you so that many souls that are drifting into the traps of Satan will be snatched from the pit. Keep going Deb’s …this is quality work…scriptures obeyed need to be engraved in every true believers heart.

  • Dion

    Hi Deborah,
    I am glad to learn you’re somewhere under African sky soaking up the sun. You should stay a while longer my friend, because this year may be a togh one… Rest well my sister.

  • Burning Lamp

    Michael, thank you for your encouraging words for Debs and all others who are standing for truth in such a dark world. This is a difficult and mostly unappreciated ministry but you have demonstrated from personal testimony that it impacted you and snatched you from the fire. Thanks for sharing!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    Your comment brings tears to my eyes – Thank you so much. I’ve known you for a good 2 years now I would say (on the blog) , and I’ve watched you improve day by day, month by month -this is what brings a huge smile to my face.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you Dion.

    I have unfortunately returned back to civilization. But I have a bag packed for ’emergencies’, when things get tough again, I’ll drag my husband (who wont resist lol) back out into the bush. Ahhh the joys and wonders of Africa. I would not trade it in for the world. Except for when Jesus comes to take us home soon, cos I know what He has install for me far outweighs the bushveld lol.

  • I do not know who this guy in your article is, and I do not care. It seems your whole existence is on tearing other Christian teachers down. You are on the attack against Christianity. Are you a muslim?

    Divide and conquer eh?

    As Christians, we should not be attacking each other. The holier-than-thou attitude is no different than the way pharisees conducted themselves.

    No I am not a new age or emergent church believer. But I bet you accuse me of such….it’s a good thing my salvation is dependent upon Christ and not upon you. If it were up to you, I would be condemned to hell….I’m sure of it.

  • santie

    hope you enjoyed your holiday – i am interested in seeing your comments on doxa deo et al. i also had a very unpleasent experience as i actually worked for one of them. do not question, disagree or dare to differ. My bible is the word of God and He says to me all i need to know in there – all i have to do is listen (quietly!or i may miss it) Their actions do not match their words or His word. one arguement was over taking money from Lotto to do projects. The justifications given of why my Heavenly father would want me to have and use the proceeds of gambling were so funny if they were not so sad. ” if i found a lotto ticket on the ground and picked it up then God wanted me to have it” (never consider the other side wants to see if you will fall for it!)
    anyway i look forward to this article with great anticipation.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Molon

    It’s apparent you can’t tell the different between good and evil. At Boschoff is NOT a Christian. If he was a Christian he would be preaching the Gospel TRUTH and would not be stealing money from people.

    I see you have a similar problem with Chuck Missler – (see comment here) You think he is a Christian as well…. when it’s clear he is not.

    The bible speaks about people like you: Isaiah 5:20-21 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and clever in their own sight!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    santie

    My holiday was just great, thank you. I actually drove past a doxa deo church yesterday and spoke to my husband about it. I’ve put it down on my list of articles to write. I pray the Holy Spirit has comforted you through your unpleasant experience at this church. But have you noticed that these experiences make us stronger for Jesus?

  • Michael

    Molon commented…
    I do not know who this guy in your article is, and I do not care. It seems your whole existence is on tearing other Christian teachers down. You are on the attack against Christianity. Are you a muslim?

    There is something terribly wrong with somebody claiming to be a Christian who does NOT CARE about the souls of men and women. In fact your statement reflects that you need to repent…

    You are showing the true state of your your soul…defending men and not scriptures and the love of the truth and then contradicting yourself.
    Your statement …”Are you a muslin” is childish,absurb and downright nasty.
    What you have said also shows you are untruthful and insincere. You have no hatred of wrong and have proved that you judged Debs…totally out of context thereby proving that you judge incorrectly and contradict yourself.
    This blog is CERTAINLY NOT about bringing persons down…it is about defending the truth in the scriptures.
    The Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross to take away our sin.
    To continue in life claiming to know Christ and not hating sin…lies.untruths,dishonesty,greed etc,shows you have not understood why Christ had to die.
    How can you be so indifferent to sin if it caused all that the cross at Calvary represents. My friend you need to take a deep look at your life and if you have not died to the “old man” then you are not saved.

  • Rudi

    Santie

    Santie, you wrote:

    i actually worked for one of them. do not question, disagree or dare to differ

    You are SOOOOOOOO right about this!! Although I wasn’t on their payroll, I might as well have been! They even said so! It got to the point that I was so busy with their churchianity and speaking their christianese that I lost what it was really all about.
    I was so busy struggling through their presentations every Sunday morning, not understanding half of it and diagreeing with the rest of it. I left home on a Sunday morning 6 o’clock, leaving my wife and baby daughter at home because the Pastor (the main dude) tells you to keep your child quiet if he or she dares to make a noise. I was in charge of the R150,000-00 sound system and was responsible for switching off all the sound equipment, which meant I only returned home by 13:00. When I started talking about things, raising my concerns, I was accused of not wanting to work for God and my wife apparently suffered from post natal depression. I was asked why I only come to church when I am on duty (I was off once a month). I asked them which church they are referring to. The answer? Braam’s church.(Deborah – feel free to edit this name out but I am through protecting identities.) Not Jesus’s church!!
    Don’t dare to mention Israels name either. Not unless you mean the church of cause. I am not sure off all of them but replacement theology is very popular here. God’s holy people have been replaced by their church.
    On their website it says in big fat bold letters, The Doxa Deo Way (not God’s way?!?!). Their vision? Establishing God’s reign in 12 cities. Since when do we need to establish Gods reign ANYWHERE? Since when does God need us to do that anyway? Doesn’t this sound like Dominionism?
    And the nonsence they preach about tithing will make the likes of At Boshoff very proud! In fact I know they will because they frequently organise trips to Oom Angus and last year when Rodney ‘Holy Ghost Bartender’ Howard-Brown went to Roebert’s church (River Ministries) in East London, they organised a minibus for the trip from PE as well. These false prophets are all endorsed by At as well.
    I also know some of them took leave from work to sit and listen to Tod Bentley’s antics on GodTV.
    I can go on and on but I’m afraid I might sound like a whinge. What I’m trying to say is that Doxa is about controlling people and even the Holy Spirit with their programs and schedules. When a friend of mine asked if the Praise & Worship (he was in the team) can be longer, they told him that the P&W team should produce a better product. We need to take a stand and confront these false prophets. Face to face.

    Molon Labe you wrote:

    I do not know who this guy in your article is, and I do not care

    Why are you on this blog? I mean, what was the aim of your visit? Did you stumble upon it by accident or were you looking for something? If you dont know At Boshoff why are you defending him? Have you ever been to CRC Bfn? Have you ever listened to the nonsense he sells? Some of us have and out of our concern for fellow believers we want to warn them.

    Deborah

    Welcome back to civilisation! Oh, and yes, we have grown. In fact, while I was in Doxa, it felt like I was stuck. Luckily God sent me others to help me understand that I wasn’t alone and to help me understand and grow in the real Jesus.

    God Bless!!

  • Chris

    Molon, you need to study the Scripture a little more in detail. The Lord said if we love Him we will keep his commandments. Read the Bible not the Message or very new translations they are false – read what the commandments of God are the New Testament -n keeping them you will love the Lord.

    Many of these commandments are to be critical in our evaluation of preachers -simply because there are those who look like ministers of light who infiltrate the chucrc to corrupt it.

    It looks as if you have some knowledge regarding the emerging church and that you disprove of it.

    At Boshoff and CRC is part of the emerging church – which you obviously do not agree with. Are you not contradicting yourself here?

    Concerning holiness and saying that those who point out error have a hollier than thou attitude – well Paul, Peter, James, John, Luke etc had the same attitude and we are to be immitaters of them – the Scriptures say.

    After all the will of God is your sanctification 1 Thess 4 – and this sanctification is nothing less than a growth in holiness.

    If you think holiness is not achievable consider the Greek “Hagios” which simply menas to seperate yourself from something that is wrong – that is holiness and it is a command in th Scriptures. Without holiness you will not enter the Kingdom.

    So in your excersising your godliness you need to break with many ungoldly errors – this is growth in grace.

    This is exactly why people need to be warned against error and false prophets etc.

    As Paul wrote to Timothy: 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

  • Reading many of the comments leaves me very concerned by what is happening in the “church” arenas in the world, especially in the USA which has found its way into our country. No doubt we are living in the closing days of which Jesus warned us to guard against deception.We certainly need discernment more than ever now as we see every one doing their own thing. Humility is greatly conspicious by its abscence as we see the flambouyancy and commercialising of the Gospel. And its all done in the name of our precious Lord and Saviour. Men who mount the podiums and stages with all their degrees i.e Titles such as Doctors, Bishops, Reverends, Pastors, Dominees,Rabbi,s Apostles etc. whilst Jesus said to call no man by title, for we are all brethren. A Bishop, Pastor etc. is just another Elder which are all ministries, not titles. Jesus became the son of man by example, “took upon him the form of a servant and humbled himself and became obedient, even to the death of the cross” There will be some great dissapointments one day. It is best to start over and examine where we stand as workmen when we divide the word of truth.
    Paul has warned how certain men will come and preach. This is very important (2Cor.14:13)Quote;
    “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And marvel not; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is NO GREAT THING IF HIS MINISTERS ALSO BE TRANSFORMED AS THE MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS” unquote(That’s scary)
    I hope my comments have been edifying. I am a senior citizen who have been following Jesus for just on fifty years by his grace. I was fortunate to have found Salvation as a young man.
    I have become very aware of how we sould conduct our vocation in life and for the Lord to “teach me to number my days and to apply my heart unto wisdom” (Ps.90:12)
    May the Lord grant us wisdom and grace.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Desmond

    Thanks for your comment. And you are 100% correct. I wish everyone stuck in the church system would start over and re-examine what they have been taught just to make sure it’s true or not. But no one even reads their bibles, so the chances of that happening is zero. Very sad.

  • Thanks Deborah, The scripture is our home base to establish truth. Solomon said “there is a way that seems right unto a man” Prov.14:12. So true! We all think we are right until God proves us wrong. The secret is to accept it without debate. That’s humility, and then faith comes into action. Many ride on a high horse until it bolts and then we fall very hard. Its best to get off it while we can.
    The same applies in our Spiritual lives.
    I give voice to many things that’s occurring in our world today. For a free copy of my book “The Road Ahead” Please write to P.O. Box 3147 Jefreys Bay 6330.

  • anon

    I visited CRC Cape Town since last year and have discovered that 90% of their sermons as well as the focus in cell groups is on wealth and prosperity. One evening the pastor said if we don’t tithe we will bring a curse on ourselves. They also like to play a video where they threaten “not to tithe = robbing God”. If I argue that my giving money to the poor and to needy family mambers constitutes my tithe, then they very legalistically disagree and say that charity is over and above the tithe and that the tithe must go directly to the church (the storehouse). This begs the question: if they are then not using the tithes for charity, what are they using them for? I have found the general atmosphere to be very autocratic and nobody is allowed to question anything. As soon as you question anything, you get parrot fashion answers as everyone has been brainwashed with the same doctrine. At Boschoff recommends that congregants read books by Fred Price who is a false preacher of the prosperity gospel. Oh yes, and At Boshoff’s spiritual father was apparently once upon a time none other than Ray MaCauley…another big prosperity gospel preacher. There is also a sense of spiritual pride amongst certain leaders…because the focus is on becoming “super-spiritual giants” and the bigger your faith the bigger your reward. Of course if you are poor and sick, then according to them it means that your faith is lacking and you are not spiritually mature enough. One of the leaders said that the aim of CRC is to get every member to be so attractive to the outside world by becoming prosperous due to attending the church that this will attract more people to join CRC. They have clearly lost the focus of the Great Commission of Jesus Christ: which is not to make the church bigger and wealthier and more comfortable in our church pews, BUT TO GO OUT AND MAKE DISCPLES, HEAL THE SICK, SET THE CAPTIVES FREE, SPREAD THE GOOD NEWS!

  • Michael

    At Boshoff conducted the funeral service of Reuben Kruger a famous Springbok rugby player who was part of the SA team that won the World Cup in 1995…most of team attended the funeral service including Francois Pienaar and other Springboks that came later…Gary Teichman.
    This is what worries me that a man of such suspect and questionable doctrines has exposure to such influential gatherings…rather like Ray Macauley and Hansie Cronje during the Kings Commission. It is sad because they are peers and mentors to our youth that are so easily impressionable.
    I am a great rugby and cricket fan and see many of the sporting heroes falling victims to sin that is so leniently winked and by-passed in influential charismatic circles…another one Jonty Rhodes (a confessing born-again Christian and an old boy of my old school) who left his covenant spouse to shack up in Cape Town with some young woman. Joost van der Westhuizen got caught up with a similar act of adultery.
    Why is the church so terribly weak and cowardly and indifferent to blatant sin when it sullies the Son of God. We need tough, no-compromise and out-spoken Christian leaders to confront and admonish this type of thing.
    None of us is sinless but it is unacceptable that people that claim to love Christ flaunt openly and do such terrible things that even shock the unbelievers and chase souls so far away from the One who came to die for our sins.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    I believe At Boshoff is being groomed to replace Ray Macauley.

    The sports teams of SA are through and through caught up in Latter Rain teaching and that is what why profess to the public as being Christian when it’s not – hence the fruits are rotten.

  • Chris

    Hi Debs, I agree that uncle Attie will take over from Ray. It is sad to see how most people follow follow Ray and At, as Rev. 13 says – all the world will fall prey to the beast.
    Keep up the good work – I know what you are doing is a lonely watch up in the tower where the wind and rain is.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    Today the wind and rain is a bit extra strong… but I’ll be ok. Thank you for everything!

  • Chris

    Hi Debs, no problem. I realize that the race you are running is not easy and I pray that you will have someone to help.

  • Dion

    Hi Debs, long time no speak. You’re such a blessing to so many and you must continue standing strong in the faith… no matter how tough or how lonely or how scary.., you must stand strong. If you wanna call me feel free my sister.
    PS. Hi there Chris!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Dion

    Thank you for your comment. I really appreciate it.

  • Sipho Mnyakeni

    Wow. To the website admin. Thanks for daring. I have been having sessions on my facebook, commenting on teh church related issues and sychopants of these false teachers will swallow you live because they prefer to defend the SERMON rather than the WORD. I ma glad just under my nose is such a ministry. I hope we can interact and continue to sound a warning alarm to the church. I ma in Bloemfontein at a campus based church. At the core of my teaching is TEST ALL THINGS and the Pastor is NOT THE BOSS Jesus is.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Sipho

    I am very happy that you are happy :) Thank you for your comment! If you are interested Chris is in Bloemfontein as well. Can you please give me an email address that I can give to him so you can communicate?

  • anon

    I like the comment by Sipho that the pastor is not the boss, but Jesus is!

    I had an experience at CRC where I was just a visitor and I kept being pressurised by someone in the leadership to join the church and being told that I must submit to the authority that God has placed over me…….even though I was just a visitor! Does anyone know if there is any validity in the idea that one is under the “covering” of the church leadership/the church that one is a member of? To me it felt more like manipulation and control. I told them that I am visiting different churches because I am still trying to find out where God wants me to be situated (because I actually have a calling on my life – but I did not tell them about my calling because they keep on telling me I can’t get more involved in programs until I am more spiritually mature!).

    I also told them that I do not believe in the prosperity gospel as this is not the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Which then begs the question…….who or what are they really worshipping and praying to in that church? … A false altar??

    They also endorse word-faith/positive confession theology (which I think just results in many people lying because they are not allowed to state anything negative even when they are sick or poor or sad). Another thing that made me uncomfortable there is the way they teach people to pray in tongues…I was told to babble along and make up words…I don’t think this is the true gift of speaking in tongues. It doesn’t seem that people are being led by the Spirit when praying in tongues (but I could be wrong).

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Yeah isn’t that just the coolest saying ever…

    >> the pastor is not the boss, but Jesus is!

  • Robbie

    Hi Debs.

    Anon re:Covering

    Old John Bevere (and N.A.R.) effort following his book “UNDER COVER” in

    More and more people are becoming concerned with the rise of this theology because it has led to spiritual abuse, controlling church leadership and spiritual shipwreck.

    http://coveringandauthority.com/

  • Dion

    Hi Debs, Hope you’re still standing strong my sister. Saw Chris yesterday; gave me a book written by Nick Maartens. Book is a must read unfortunately only in Afrikaans. Many people on your blog will greatly benefit if they attend a few Sunday Morning services at a local Pretoria based Fellowship called “Tekiah” meaning “a call to repentance”. Many of their questions will be answered by the Fellowship Pastor Louis Reyneke. Also at Elijah Ministries in JHB – Pastor there is PJ Contat. If they want they can contact me to arrange directions etc. You’re welcome to call when you need to Debs. Chris said he’ll talk to you later… Hang in there… till the end…

  • michael barnard

    my hart is so sore for you guys

    its sad how you despize a church that is making such a profound impact on South Africa and bringing Gods magnificent love to the masses

    here is a word for you guys:
    MAT 23 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”

    are YOU Mr Dion Knoesen prepared to go out and make desiples of many nations as the bible comands us to do ??????? or is it easyer to just sit and “Critique” wherever YOU find offence

    yes i give money to the church not becase im forced to do so but because i have purposed it in my hart to give to expand Gods kingdom what is the big deal

    im sorry you guys are so hurt

    i pray that our God blesses you abundently in all you put your hand to and that he may shine his glorios love apon you more then ever before !!!!!!

    no church is perfect but lets work together to make it stronger not devide it

  • Robbie

    Michael,

    I can’t believe you quote Matt 23 and still are “forced” to give money to your church.

    Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    And you dare call Dion a Pharisee?

    God does not want your favours (money)Michael… He wants your heart… and He wants you to get the truth..
    Keep on reading.

  • Chris

    Michael, you really need to study the Word in depth.
    Have you read the article “Honor God” at the beginning of these comments to see how At Boshoff contorts Scripture to suck money from congregants?
    Read the article and address the issue then read Matt. 23 again and hopefully you would see that At is the Pharisee and not Dion.
    Why has At Boshof fand his pastors not responded to the invitation to participate in the debate.
    By the way you are welcome to join forces with At Boshoff to attend and support him the debate – but alas I already know that such request will never be met.
    It is a pity that many Christians are not even schooled in the milk let alone the meat.
    I always hear the same clichés – the church is not perfect – well according to the Scripture the doctrine of the church should be – sinless not totally but increasingly sinless yes – holiness is an obedient growth.
    The fact is that we are not talking about being perfectly sinless, but we are talking about being perfect in doctrine.
    Sort out doctrine then your Christian church will be much better off.
    These pastors are teaching worldliness – something Jesus condemns completely.
    I’d rather listen to Jesus than to At.

  • Unknown

    Hi All,

    Came across the website tonight and obviously started reading the comments as well as the article quoted at the beginning. My wife and I have been attending CRC Pretoria for almost 3 years. At first we enjoyed the church and it came to a point where I could not wait to hear AT preach..then suddenly, my wife started to loose interest in the church. We went through a rough patch financially, spoke to one of the pastors(not mentioning names) and never heard from them again, this was in the time I was a cell leader. I focussed on God to bring us through this patch, which happened at the end of the day. Praise the Lord!!!!Then it started, hearing every Sunday how we need to give more money(tithe) as we are busy expanding the Kingdom(new building project) because that is the vision God gave him. Then we started questioning them…how do you expand the Kingdom by building a bigger church..Isn’t expanding the Kingdom of God doing things like supporting the poor in the name of Jesus( I might be missing the plot here), or talking to people about how God changed your life or what HE did in your life? Sharing? Finding lost souls, ministering and praying from them? Isn’t expanding the Kingdom of God taking the R120 million and helping the poor and feeding the hungry and giving to the people who does not have anywhere to go? Building or refurbishing hotels or buildings and opening kitchens to feed the people who does not have an income and teach them the Gospels, teach them about Jesus, about God, about the Bible? Tithing into these people as a non-profit organization? I migjt be wrong, but that’s the way I see it..please correct me if I am wrong

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Unknown

    You are not wrong ;) What happened to you is that you landed in the clutches of a cult – to put it bluntly. In fact the Kingdom of God has already come is JESUS CHRIST ;) We don’t need to establish the Kingdom of God on earth for God before Jesus Christ returns.

    Can I ask you to please read this article:
    and then this article: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/04/13/the-manifest-sons-of-god-belief-of-angus-buchan/
    and then this article:
    and then this article:
    and then this article: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/12/16/false-foundation-of-five-fold-ministry/
    and then this article: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/10/06/the-gnostic-roots-of-the-latter-rainword-of-faith-movement/
    and then this article: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/01/17/are-prophets-for-today-or-has-prophecy-ceased/

  • anon

    I agree with “unknown”

    The church is not a building, WE are the church because the Holy Spirit lives inside us. We should be modeling Jesus’ ministry when He was on earth…..which was to preach the good news, heal the sick, set free the oppressed, etc etc. Jesus’s ministry did NOT focus on prosperity and on teaching people how to become wealthy or blessed by tithing. Jesus did not even teach people how to have a church hierarchy. Jesus’s ministry did NOT teach financial prosperity but rather spiritual prosperity. Jesus Himself WORKED as a carpenter, and His ministry was FREE. CRC’s focus is on getting people to tithe so they can expand their church where congregants fill their comfortable pews every sunday….but congregants are not taught how to become disciples and how to go out into the world to fulfil the great commission and to continue Jesus’s ministry.

    CRC focuses very heavily on financial prosperity…tithing and sowing a seed brings a reutnr etc. My husband also got caught in the trap of tithing even though he did not have a regular income….instead of putting the little bits of money that came in here and there into his savings he gave them to the church and as a result there where months where we almost couldn’t pay the rent. I do believe that charity starts at home and that we should be paying our rent/feeding our children/paying off our debt/helping our unemployed parents before paying for a church building. I am pretty sure that Jesus would not condemn us for sorting out our own living situation first – and I highly doubt that CRC would ever have helped us out when we couldn’t pay the rent or put food on the table.

    To me these churches like CRC operate like a huge pyramid scheme where we are all the suckers at the bottom who are keeping them going and enriching the leadership. The prosperity gospel only works for those who are sitting right at the top! Why don’t the leaders sow or tithe a million rand and get a 10-fold return in order to build their next church building? Why are they using our tithes (which they obtain through emotional manipulation by threatening that we will get cursed if we don’t tithe and that we are robbing God if we don’t tithe)? Why don’t they prove to us how their laws of sowing financial seeds work with their own money?

  • anon

    Sorry – typing error in the first row of paragraph 2:
    CRC focuses very heavily on financial prosperity…tithing and sowing a seed brings a RETURN etc

  • SSBG

    Hi Dion, will you please send me contact details/directions of “Tekiah” fellowship in Pretoria? My and my family are looking for a place to worship where the “unadulterated” gospel of the good news is preached.
    Thank you, SSBG (sinner saved by grace)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    SSBG

    I will give Dion your email address so he can contact you :)

  • FOOLS!!!!!!!

    What a bunch of rubbish….I just can’t believe that people will put so much energy into slandering anyone. You are guys are all so pathetic. ALL AUTHORITY IS FROM GOD!!!!!!
    If a pastor is wrong God will take care of him.
    If Satan is called the accuser of the brethren,I’ll so far as to say that this blog is demonic!!!! Bunch of self-righteous christians who will never amount to anything…
    You bunch of brood vipers!!!!!!!!!!
    Just like the Pharisees who saw the works of God with their own eyes yet accused Jesus of being a worker of Satan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    YOu people are slandering a man of God!!!!!!!!!!!
    YOu will all give account for the words you have written on this blog.
    You guys are all such a sad bunch of people!!!
    If you have nothing positve to say…then shut up

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    FOOLS!!!!!!!!

    I can only imagine that is someone from CRC, lol – 3 guesses anyone?

  • Michael b

    no rebuttel this time Deborah …….. LOL

  • anon

    @ “FOOLS”

    Actually the statement that all authority is from God should not be thrown around so carelessly. There are many many many false ministries made of false pastors, false evangelists, false prophets, false apostles, and false people. Jesus even warns us about this and we are instructed to test everything and to use discernment. The “authority” behind these false minsistries is only satan himself….sent to deceive the very elect…..and NOT God. And these false ministers who are preaching another gospel are going to have to answer to Jesus, and He may very possibly say “get away from me you evildoers, for I do not know you…..” (Mattthew 7 vs 22). The prosperity gospel is another gospel, it is not the true and pure gospel of Jesus Christ.

    If nobody blows the trumpet to warn people and expose deception, then people’s spiritual wellbeing could be in danger!

    I am sure that CRC also does a lot of good as they have a focus on saving the lost at any cost, and they do have some charity involvement. But at the same time if there is deception in a ministry then it means that there is some involvement of evil spirual forces because satan is the master of deception……and this is where people’s spiritual wellbeing is in danger.

    Why doesnt CRC accept the offer of public debate by Dion Knoesen?

  • Robbie

    Chances are all three guesses will be right… since the name is plural?…

    Hi Debs!.. so good to see you

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Robbie

    Yes, I am happy to see me too ;) although not totally ok :(

  • anon

    @ “FOOLS”

    Another thought…..If you were oppressed under the leadership of Hitler, Robert Mugabe, or Idiamin, and your very life was in danger, would you still submit because of your belief that “all authority is from God”?

    Where does the authority of other religious leaders such as the prophet Mohammed, the leaders of the Jehova’s Witnesses, and the Hindu swamis come from?

  • lilly

    In my opinion, it is not where you worship God that is important, it is whether you are truely saved.

    I don’t think any Church out there is 100% perfect, not one. I am a committed CRC member and very proud to say it. I tith, i give my offering, i give my plege. I believe in sowing a seed and i have many times experienced the wonder of return.

    CRC is the only church were i truly found God. Where i felt the presence of God. I have had my doubts, but it was because of slanderers. I do not serve people, pastors or anyone. I serve God with my deeds, my money and my time. I believe that GOD sees our hearts and He knows our deeds. LET HIM DEAL WITH WHOMEVER IS MISLEADING PEOPLE.

    So i should wander looking for the perfect church then?? NOBODY ON THIS CHURCH IS PERFECT, NOBODY. SO LET HIM THAT IS WITHOUT SIN THROW THE FIRST STONE. GOD IS THE ONLY JUDGE.

  • lilly

    correction, nobody on this EARTH is perfect.

  • Paul

    Anon. The god of this world is Satan (otherwise how could he have offered it to the Messiah) but he cannot do anything unless he runs past God. God allows it but I am not sure that I would use the word authority rather than allowing it.
    False religions like Judaism and Islam and murderous leaders like Hitler and Malema come from Satan as he is their god.
    2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

  • Paul

    FOOLS!!!!!!!
    If a pastor is wrong, we are exhorted to correct him once or twice and if he does not change then we must walk away from him. Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    How can you say that people on this site will never amount to anything, do you know us and our successes?
    Your anger gets the best of you, the truth hurts doesn’t it!

    Exposing heresy is not “Slander”, it is required of us. 2Cor 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

    If I was Deborah, I would look forward to the day when she has to “give account for the words she has written on this blog”. Most people just sit back and let Satan have his way! As Burcke said, “For evil to triumph all it takes is for good men to do nothing.”

    Thank you for saying “You guys are all such a sad bunch of people!!!” because this proves that this blog is succeeding, otherwise there would only be praises; as Scripture says, people will hate us because of Jesus.”

    If you have nothing positive to say then shut up (there are 11 negative things in your rant!) Since when are people to say only positive things, that is psychobabel; it is positive to confront heresy and evil!

  • Paul

    Hi Deborah.
    What is the reason that all of my recent comments have never been published? Everything that I said is Scriptural.

  • John Stander

    Hi Debs. Long time no talk, but trust you are much better.

    While reading throught the comments I noticed that Charlotte Cronk was mentioned. “Big Mama” Charlotte and her son John (now deceased) came to Mafikeng about 10 years or so ago and tried to start a “church” here. After her son passed away, Charlotte seemed to move on and nothing more was heard of her. Their message was very much prosperity oriented (“everybody loves a new car” was one of John’s slogans), but I think they found Mafikeng to be “slim pickings” because Rhema and Hatfield affiliate branches (a less charitable colleague of mine calls them franchises) had already been here since the early eighties and ninties.

    I am commenting because the cancer discussed above i.e.the prosperity doctrine ( and its attendant ” dont touch the Lord’s anointed” garbage) is doing very well here. The latest I hear is that the pastor at one of the “branches” is not satified with a wooden pulpit and is insisting on a perspex one. He (a new boy on the show) also wants the church to replace his Corolla with a Merc. And so it goes.

    We discussed this at Bible study and I am becoming more and more convinced that if only people would take the time to read their Bibles they would not have to take or would not ever be taken in by this rubbish. I cannot understand why so many Christians are willing to have a second hand relationship with their Lord.

    I hold no brief for Eugene Peterson’s Message,(indeed I have problems with many parts of his paraphrase), but the sentiments he expresses in the introduction to his book, that many church going professing Christians couldn’t be less interested in the Bible seems to be correct.

    I wonder what the solution is ? The prosperity cancer seems therefore to be a self imposed doctrinal disease – and of course it is so, so attractive.

    Before I send this, one further question. One of the previous contributors said (if I remember correctly), that new translations of the Bible are not to be trusted for some reason or another. Accepting that paraphrases are exactly that i.e. paraphrases (and dangerous in their possible effect because a doctrinal belief can so easily be incorporated and propogated therin), I have always thought that the recent (last 70 years or so) discoveries of both old and new testament manuscripts have assisted in the translation of the original text. I therefore have no problem with my New American Standard Bible and I find the Amplified useful.

    Should I be using the King James Version ? And if so, why?

    Regards

    John

    PS Debs: Don’t think AT and co. do tuna and viennas do you ?

  • Rudi

    HI Debs

    havent chatte din a while and just checked in again. i see you mentioned in one of the posts above that you can give contact details of someone in Bloem. Can I have it as well? Thanks!

  • Rudi

    dont worry! found Chris from Bfn!

  • CRC for ever( Sthembile Foko)

    Ok………. Dion or what ever your name is, if you think you are so hollier that all of us ” wolves in sheep skin” then I would like to see you try and do what MY PASTOR (and I dare call him that) does. I love Pastor Att and Nyeretta and I stand firmly for what they belive in . Im glad that those of you who claimed to be victims have left our mists. You may condemn all you want, Its your right but do not publicly humiliate someones husband, someone’s father in public like that. Tell me, should you have this debate with PASTOR ATT (how sweet that sounds) will Jesus himself come down to pick the winner? NO! Give it up, My Pastor, is too busy doing the work of God, than to have to dance to the beat of the likes of you. As for the one who accused the pastor’s son of wanting to attack him…. LOL Ja! that was a good one, you must be really tinny for david to scare you or a really Gigantic liar. So I will tell you whats going to happen: You guys are going to continue to put our church down and make us look bad, then we are going to continue Lifting up Gods name and winning souls and building family churches (one Church many locations).

  • Chris

    Anon, God will send a delusion to those who do not obey and keep to the truth. Look at how many places in the Scriptures God sends lying spirits etcetera to judge and test people. When these tests come the ignorant will not be aware that God Himself has sent a delusion, a lying spirit etcetera. I suppose that they would most probably rebuke or “bind” these spirits in the name of the Lord while the Lord actually sent them.

  • Chris

    If At Boshoff was so enlightened with so much revelation knowledge as he himself claims to have as well as all his supporters, why doesn’t he take up the challenge to debate publically.
    It is obvious from his teachings of which the one on tithing here is proof of his being unlearned in the Scriptures. In 1 Corinthians 14:24 the Greek word for unlearned is “Idiotes” In English “Idiot”.
    In 2 Peter 3:16 the word for unlearned in Greek is “Amathes” meaning unskilled, illiterate. The obvious synonym to this refers to “Idiotes” once again.
    Now we have to wonder who the “Fools” are………..Mmmmmmmmm????

  • kgosi

    I have personally been rescued by the Ministry of CRC, the church is doing wonders in South Africa and I will be a fool to allow some disgruntled people who will not submit anywhere to have influence on me. Ps At is called by God and jealousy has gripped you guys. Call me blind or anything, but had this man not obeyed the call of God in his life, I don’t think I would be where I am now. I hope you guys will pray, repent and be planted under some recognised leadership and will really submit that under that ministry to win souls other than sitting in your offices and spewing vile ‘mgozi’ about Pastor At Boshoff, God bless u.

  • kgosi

    CRC is changing lives of people and a sanctuary for the lost and saints, growing exponentially and building structure all over the place. I think Pastor Boshoff must be doing something right and if there are mistakes,did you take time to pray for him,or is your self righteous doctrine so important that everyone can go to hell. And hey, how many church members does this ‘ministry of mgozi’ have? I thought so.

  • freedom

    do these “men of God” do this deliberately? do they really plan on deceiving people or are they merely deceived themselves? CRC sounds like an Old Testament Levitical Priesthood set-up

    @FOOLS! * did you know that the Word of God warns us from calling one another that?

    Murder Begins in the Heart

    Matthew5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

    **FOOL* I beg of you to discern and to test all spirits, the truth shall set you free and PLEASE DO NOT LEAD PEOPLE ASTRAY in your preaching/leading of them. Repent now before it is too late! please!-does it feel good to take from poor people and enrich yourselves? does it feel good to expect people to give until it hurts? ***the widow with the 2 mites…is such an amazing place in the bible where Jesus first rebukes the Pharisees for taking from widows THEN in the next chapter – Jesus watches over the offering and sees the Pharisees doing it again…lets read that piece of scripture in context can we? Jesus ends off in saying that the widow gave MORE than all the Pharisees because she gave everything then it ends right there. It seems as though many preachers love using that scripture in order to justify themselves stealing from poor people. like you say Dion – it is sad!

    I notice something interesting in the CRC slogan “win the lost at any cost” ….ANY cost….pretty scary because I read the Word in Acts 2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

    ^notice: the Lord added….no one was forced, begged, coaxed or dragged!

    Keep it simple and preach the truth!

    be blessed folk and let us search the scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Ghost at all times!

  • Mo

    Hi, I found that this is the only web that expose the wrongs in CRC and its teaching as far as I know. I live in London, UK. Someone I know goes to CRC London. At that time, we were friends (not anymore, sadly)and challenged him with what I found ‘questionable’. He took it serious in the first place but later on seemed to judge that I was just dividing the body of Christ. The church is big and lots of young people (20-30s). The worship music was just like a ‘gig’. They rent a cinema in a dome for Sunday service. Nobody around me was opening the Bible (it was so dark so you cannot read the Bible anyway because it is cinema). I accessed to their sermons. It is not entirely wrong but there is hardly any explanation of context of the bible they are talking about. I can smell ‘word faith theology’ here and there. As almost no context, I am confused what this preacher wanted to say from the scriptures. They focus on the number of people (the physical size of the church) under the banner of ‘reach the lost at any cost’. But I wonder if they really come to the Lord with genuine understanding of the salvation (not just being saved from financial or relational problems). I just don’t understand including this guy, why so many 20-30, even 40 single Christian people are attracted to this church regardless of such a poor teaching. I posted my honest comment of confusion on their sermon online, they always immediately put a comment like ‘this preaching is life changing’ or ‘awesome preaching’ with many stars to rate higher….but again, no explanation or comment how awesome from the Bible what so ever……..I just want to ask you guys….why so many young people are attracted to such a church based on a wrong / poor teaching??? I now they say like ‘dream big because God is big’ or ‘be positive to get your life positive and successful’. Sounds it is not entirely wrong, but living in this end time, ‘success’ is not physical…..You may not get promoted, you may lose things that you used to afford but He takes us to the spiritual place where we couldn’t see in the life surrounded by stuff. Am I wrong? I wanted to see more sermons in this church but there is no public access to the teaching resources unless you register to this church…..I don’t understand why they do this, though……anyway, I smell something fishy from this church but no one says anything and seems very attractive to those young professionals. Is this the same in South Africa?

  • Michelle

    Well, I am glad I found this website. I now will no longer feel guilty about not wanting to attend any church.

    I have belonged to two church groups in my 43 years of life and in both cases the relationship ended badly, leaving me doubting my Father’s love.
    Consequently, I have avoided regular church attendance for over 10 years now.
    Fortunately, these bad incidents did not turn me away from the Lord, but certainly from church organisations.

    Thank-you for this insight into what is happening in churches today…

  • Chris

    Khosi, please look at the origin opf this topic. Do you agree how At Boshoff contorts the Scripture as he did above?

    Our war is not against flesh and blood but against the spiritual messages being spoken.

    At Boshoff is a deciever!

    I have just learnt of another of his pastors this morning who has jumped off this CRC Titanic headed for disaster.

    The Bible is clear – it is not about quantity by aboutl doctrinal quality. You will know them by their fruits and their fruits is not quantity – go read Galatians.

    Read Matthew 23 – like the pharisees make converts twice the sons of the devil so does AT Boshoff. They like to be seen in the market places, they like to sit in the front rows of the synagogue in reserved seats.

    Yes, we do pray God to have mercy on At, but we do not support his devilish doctrine. We will however accept him as a brother after he repents – God willing.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    Chris!!! Please phone me. I never answered the last time cos my dog chewed my cell phone as flat as a pancake (wish I was joking). So I could see you calling but I could not answer the phone lol. I’m using my husbands phone now, but I can’t access my contacts – so you need to phone me :) dankie dankie thank you.

    [Edited: Thank you for calling. Yippeee]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    I’ve been ill for a good 3 months :) and have not been approving comments. But I am back now, and your comments have been approved.

  • Mo

    Michel, This website is not for convincing you don’t have to go to church. You should be a part of church. I imagine you get hurt in church from some sort of conflict or offence, but it is at the same time the process we learn ‘how to love’. Of course you need to be careful if the church teaches the Bible properly and accurately, otherwise you will be misled and lose the truth. We are all imperfect. We sometimes step on other’s foot. But the Bible says; forgive, as Christ forgave us. It is sometimes hard and we tend to claim our ‘justice’. But Christ helps us to move from justice to mercy. I pray that you find a good Bible teaching church you can enjoy. However, do not get me wrong. Again, we need to address errors and stick to what is right in the Bible. Judgment is nothing wrong, though it doesn’t mean pointing your finger at somebody to slander or damage. You need to judge if it is safe before crossing the road, don’t you? You would warn your friend not to cross the road when a car is coming to hit him? We all need to judge…otherwise we keep being run over by cars!

    Going back to ‘church’, all believers are consisting of a body of Christ. We are the church. I have an experience that I got hurt from a brother who goes to church with a wrong doctrine but attracted to their social cultures (namely, CRC). I pointed out some wrongs and dangers in their teachings but he really couldn’t get my point. He also didn’t (doesn’t?) Know Christian principle of ‘relationships’ either because no body taught him. It is in a sense understandable because he doesn’t get proper, deeper teaching of the Bible in the environment where the church mainly teach only work hard for church and be always positive to be successful for the church to be physically big. I was so sad to see this brother grabs everything appeals to his eyes including secular ideas due to lack of spiritual equipment. I have been praying for him. At the same time, I repented my wrongs as well. I struggled to forgive him with what he did although he apologized after pointing out what was wrong. I won’t go for the details because I decided to love him continually though I have lost the friendship due to this. Love covers the multitudes of sins. I decided not to bring what so ever he did anymore and see him as if nothing happened, which actually, I have done today. Love is dying to ourselves, which exactly Jesus Christ did for us.

    You need fellowship with fellow Christians to support you. And someone will need you for help. We need to serve and build up each other. I put some scriptures that will help you to understand this need.

    Philippians 2:1-4 “If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose, Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.”

    Hebrews 10:24-25 “And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

    Ephesians 4:29-32 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

    Probervs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

    Proverbs 18:1 A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; He rages against all wise judgment.

    You can take time as much as you like to search for a church. I pray that you will be healed from the hurt and can walk again with Him. Satan will laugh when we are deceived to believe we don’t have to go to church. We all need to be in the body. We need to learn how to forgive. If you pray to Jesus, He will help you what you should do and guide you to the right church, He will. Some churches are deceived badly and all churches are exposed to this deception to one extent to another. That’s why we need to be equipped with good Bible knowledge so that we can easily detect the false. And we need to belong to the body of Christ to be fully functioned and exercise and experience His love.

    Hope this helps.

    With love and prayer.

    Mo

  • Paul

    Deborah.
    Sorry, I read of your illness after I posted my comment about not approving them. Just happy that your ar well now.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks and Nooooo Problem Paul :)

  • kgosi

    Chris wrote:

    Khosi, please look at the origin opf this topic. Do you agree how At Boshoff contorts the Scripture as he did above?
    Our war is not against flesh and blood but against the spiritual messages being spoken.
    At Boshoff is a deciever!
    I have just learnt of another of his pastors this morning who has jumped off this CRC Titanic headed for disaster.
    The Bible is clear – it is not about quantity by aboutl doctrinal quality. You will know them by their fruits and their fruits is not quantity – go read Galatians.
    Read Matthew 23 – like the pharisees make converts twice the sons of the devil so does AT Boshoff. They like to be seen in the market places, they like to sit in the front rows of the synagogue in reserved seats.
    Yes, we do pray God to have mercy on At, but we do not support his devilish doctrine. We will however accept him as a brother after he repents – God willing.

    How many people out there are going to hell whilst we christians play our “perfect religion” games, Pastor Boshoff is on the right track, he is populating heaven at the expense of hell, and yes that sounds more like Christianity to me. Your efforts to discredit this man of God will not work, discern your own hearts and make right b4 its late.

  • Chris

    Kgosi, Again who must I believe At Boshoff or the Lord Jesus Christ! Look at the doctrine aboove which your dear pastor teaches the opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles taught. Who is wrong At Boshoff, Peter, Paul or the Lord Jesus………Mmmmmmmmm?

    Go study the Bible and find out who brings the truth and sound revelation.

    May God be with you

  • SSBG

    Kgosi, There are many scriptures that teach the opposite of what At Boshoff and all the prosperity teachers teach – take some time and go make a study of scripture and if you ask the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart and reveal the real truth to you, you will have to agree that they are deceivers and false teachers. The first scripture I suggest to get you going is 1 Tim 6:3-10

  • kathy

    My experience with CRC is something to be addressed. With regards to Doctrinal Issues, as well as the so called “Praise and Worship” this is all just not so biblical. When it comes to the Pure and Unadulterated Word of God they have no clue in this matter. There is also no such thing as a Praise and Worship in the Bible. Lets not follow the Doctrine’s of men as they are doctrines of Devils, but lets follow the Commandments and Ordinances of God. Worship is not what they make it out to be, but Worship in the Bible at every place you see it people fell on their faces in the Presence of Angels as John did on the Isle of Patmos, showing utmost Reverence and Fear of God, thats what we should do, not what these so called “churches” are doing.

  • Concerned

    It is difficult to find a church that is totally Gospel based. Where can I worship in Bfn then that is “safe”

  • Chris De Wet

    A note to concerned. Biblically speaking there is only one Church, the Bride of Christ. The Lord adds daily to that Church.

    Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Different SAVED and DOCTRINALLY stable congregations make out THE CHURCH.

    If you are serious to join such a group which is also in touch with other similar groups in Bloemfontein, please let me know and allow Deborah to obtain your contact details.

    Debs please then pass it to me and I will make sure to discuss the matter with “Concerned”.

    May the Lord lead you in this matter.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Concerned

    I have forwarded your email address to Chris, please expect an email from him. Don’t worry he is ‘safe’ ;)

  • Recovering

    It’s been a year to date since I left CRC BFN. It’s good to see that I am not the only victim who realised the brutality of this organised religion. I can only pray that God will open the eyes of the true believers who are still committed to this church. I believe everything that is done in secret will be exposed eventually. As a young black professional it was easy to fall prey to the attractiveness of the gospel ‘sold’ by this church.
    I almost lost everything but by the grace of God my eyes were opened to the deceit going on in this CULT. I haven’t attended any church ever since due to the trauma I experienced upon realisation that CRC is not of GOD. I can only be grateful that I did not lose my faith in the living God.
    Deborah, please forward my e-mail to Chris, thanks.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Recovering

    Jesus protected you all the way, even though you were in this church. And you came out the other end more knowledgeable though didn’t you? ;) Your eyes are bigger than ever and you hear the Holy Spirits voice as clear as day :) It’s actually wonderful when we come out of these things, when we look back and see how Jesus was looking after us.

    I will forward it on to him, expect him to contact you soon.

  • Concerned

    Thank you Chris and Deb for your reply. I will definitely keep my eyes peeled, guard my heart & pray that I’ll be protected from any form of deceit. I would like to know what your opinion it concerning IFCC.

  • Chris De Wet

    Concerned ,my situation was that of getting involved with too many orginizations rather tahn with Scripture itself.
    One thing is for sure and that is the more you know the Scriptures the quicker your discernment.
    As my friends used to say in Afrikaans “My kop raas” (My head is noisy) and that is due to being confused by every doctrine.
    This is why Paul and Jesus said that we should stick with the doctrine of Christ and no other, because God is not the author of confusion.
    I eventually became so annoyed by this one’s then that one’s preaching that I decided to stay at home and study the Bible first.
    When sports fishermen catch a Marlyn it only jumps a couple of times then it dives into the depths of the ocean. This they call sounding.
    Well this is what I decided to do when things became to noisy. I withdrew and looked and studied into the Scriptures prayerfully for some years – especially the New Testament as this is the era we are living in now and it is specific to the Church.
    The result was that whenever someone would say something which did not gel with what the Scriptures taught me I would simply ignore it.
    It takes the confusion away.
    My suggestion would be for you to do the same. Then go and look what IFCC is all about using the Word of God to discern for you, you should then decide. It has a better impact than someone telling you that there is a problem for with example IFCC.
    May the Lord help you in this.

  • Rudi

    Debs, can you please pass my details to Chris de Wet? I am in desperate need of fellowship with likeminded christians here in Bloem. Cheers!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Rudi

    I have emailed him your email address. He will contact you soon. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, I’ve had one problem after another this side.

  • Martin

    Well, decide for yourself how to serve God. Why must Gods house be the smallest place in town? In midrand the moslems buils now a 220mil mosk. But when Christians are asked to give, then all hell breaks lose.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Martin

    Wow, apparently you don’t read your bible. This is what the bible says regarding having the smallest place in town.

    1 Timothy 6:8-10 “8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

    1 Corinthians 5:11-13 “11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
    12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.””

    What does covetous mean? Greedy of gain

    And how dare you compare Christianity to Islam. That is like saying you want what Satan had. When Satan temped Jesus in the desert what did Jesus say to Satan when Satan offered Jesus the world?

    Matthew 4:1-11 “8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

    10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

    11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

    I think you should go now Martin and rethink your Islamianity.

  • Robbie

    LOL Debs… is that a new one?

    Islamianity, Islamicity, Islaminism, Islamica…

    But serious now Martin

    Act 7:48 – 49 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord:

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Robbie

    Islamianity is like Islam and Christianity and stuff combined hahaha ;P

  • Robbie

    Oh…lol – you mean chrislam?…

    I guess the Emergents will soon share/swap pulpits with them.
    Question: Am I right when I say that Emergents and NAR’s are closely “related”?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Robbie

    Yes, Chrislam lol, that’s what I meant. haha

    >> Am I right when I say that Emergents and NAR’s are closely “related”?

    Absolutely, NAR’s actually reference Emergent’s teaching very often and incorporate their teaching into theirs especially regarding ‘meditation’. For example, Elza Meyer who is NAR (and Angus Buchan’s buddy) references Rob Bell. I found that book of hers (the English one, I am almost finished reading it ‘again’) I will write an article on it soon.

  • Petrus du Toit

    I had a good chuckle at how fickle christians can be . At Boshoff turned my life around after I came to a preaching at CRC Cape Town . The Holy Spirit flows through the church on a Sunday , so thick you can almost feel it .

    I have from there turned from an alcoholic to a christian . I’m currently in bible school studying minstry . Just 5 months after giving my heart to the lord I have been baptised in water and in the spirit .

    So now if he did this in my life and in plenty others lives what’s so wrong with that ? We have been given a mission at church , to bring five people to get saved during the year . We just had a mate from england give his life to christ . All this happened in the CRC building . Is this a bad thing ? Sorry the guy saved my life for christ and I love him for that .

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Petrus

    >> At Boshoff turned my life around

    At turned your life around?

    >> Sorry the guy saved my life for christ and I love him for that

    At saved your life for Christ? And you love At for that?

    So basically At Boshoff is your saviour and Jesus is just someone you end up following? No wonder you can’t tell the different between false teaching and the truth.

    I am not sure what kind of gospel you were taught at CRC but the bible is clear on who our Saviour is and that is Jesus Christ.

    Who is Jesus Christ? The Bible tells us that Jesus is God in the flesh, God in human form (see John 1:1, 14). God came to earth to teach us, heal us, correct us, forgive us—and die for us! Jesus Christ is God, the Creator, the sovereign Lord. Have you accepted this Jesus?

    Not the Jesus that At Boshoff has presented you. The one who rakes in millions of rands at the expense of poor people. The one who preaches ANOTHER GOSPEL that contradicts the Word of God.

    What is a Savior, and why do we need a Savior? The Bible tells us that we have all sinned; we have all committed evil acts (Romans 3:10-18). As a result of our sin, we deserve God’s anger and judgment. The only just punishment for sins committed against an infinite and eternal God is an infinite punishment (Romans 6:23; Revelation 20:11-15). That is why we need a Savior!

    And no, it’s not At Boshoff! At Boshoff has nothing to do with anything regarding your salvation. It is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ ALONE.

    Jesus Christ came to earth and died in our place. Jesus’ death was an infinite payment for our sins (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins (Romans 5:8). Jesus paid the price so that we would not have to. Jesus’ resurrection from the dead proved that His death was sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. That is why Jesus is the one and only Savior (John 14:6; Acts 4:12)! Are you trusting in Jesus as your Savior?

    It seems you are trusting in At Boshoff instead! At Boshoff did not die for you, nor can he forgive you. He is just a man – nothing else. You owe everything to Jesus Christ. The fact that you even bring a man into the equation regarding your salvation shows there is a serious problem.

    Is Jesus your “personal” Savior? Many people view Christianity as attending church, performing rituals, and/or not committing certain sins. That is not Christianity. True Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Accepting Jesus as your personal Savior means placing your own personal faith and trust in Him. No one is saved by the faith of others. No one is forgiven by doing certain deeds. The only way to be saved is to personally accept Jesus as your Savior, trusting in His death as the payment for your sins and His resurrection as your guarantee of eternal life (John 3:16). Is Jesus personally your Savior?

    Please read this and for your sake I beg you to get out of that church and seek Jesus Christ in your own home, (no middle man called At Boshoff necessary).

  • Michael

    Petrus…Deb’s is right…it is only Jesus and He alone saves…that is from our sin.

    Patronising a man, a teaching or a belief or a way of worship is idol or icon worship…it appears harmless to those recently saved but is so spiritually dangerous and cancerous in our relationship with God and those around us.

    Parrotising preachers and teachers is a common method of Satan (appearing and appealing) as an angel of light to deceive people (even the elect).

    DO NOT LISTEN TO MAN BUT SEEK OUT SCRIPTURES PRAYERFULLY, SINCERELY and STUDIOUSLY for yourself and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT will lead into the truth.

    Cults like the Mormons (the Church of the Latter Day Saints) were started by men like Smith…who claimed interaction with God in word and vision but it was all lies and led people down the road to destruction…if you listen to men and women who claim to be messengers from God run the other way. The scriptures are complete and there is no further need for man to contaminate them with additions or subtractions.

  • Petrus du Toit

    I wonder why the personal attack . I wonder if you’re aware that it shows weakness which generally indicates that you have an incling that you might be wrong .

    You love pulling out a few words and using that completely out of context as you do with At’s . I was expecting an intelectual response but I got an attack , sorry if I offended you but maybe I should’ve let the truth and only the real truth hit you .

    Dont bother posting this as I wont be visiting your website again . I will be leading people and winning people for christ and do that through his ministry .

    These attacks by the evil ( which you proved you were by the way you responded ) wont set me back and soul by soul will be won .

    Have a great day

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Petrus

    That was not an attack at all Petrus, no where did I attack you, I pointed out the ‘obvious’ and my reply was an attempt to try get you to open your eyes to the truth – why are you following a man instead of Jesus Christ the Son of God. – those were your words, and God holds us accountable for what we say.

    I preach the truth to you and you say that its evil? But they preach lies at CRC and you call it truth.

    Go figure.

    I pray if the Holy Spirit is working in your life, that He chastises you on this matter…and that you come to know that deep down something is wrong with CRC and you need to get out – Seek Jesus Christ at your home through sincere prayer.

    You are welcome back here anytime – we make sure we always present SOUND DOCTRINE!

  • Beverley

    Poor Deborah

    With some of these ‘christians’ you can’t win. What you must pray is that the Lord drops a brick on their head to wake them up. That is what happened to me!! Love

    In His Grip
    Beverley

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bev

    Hope it wasn’t a real brick LOL?

  • die kleinhond

    Shame you guys obviously have huge problems in the giving department and the faith department. Trying to rationalize your way out of giving to the church. Seems to me that it is you and not the members of CRC who has trouble letting go of their finances.

  • Dude

    So, I just read the entire article and every comment in one sitting.

    Very interesting, but extremely ineffective.

    I am what you might consider to be ‘the enemy’.
    My job is to help organizations become super movements.
    I charge these organizations (regardless of their belief systems) massive amounts of money to teach them the brief summary I am about to give you.

    If you wanted to find me in the Bible, you would probably call me ‘Eli’.
    I have raised many ‘Samuels’ who have trained many ‘Davids’ and ‘Sauls’ and in doing so, I came close to losing my own soul.
    Take heed to my words below if you want a fighting chance.

    The power of any super movement lies in an art known as ‘social engineering’.

    Biblical differences aside (humor me for a second): If you guys want to make a true impact with your Acts 17:11 approach to Christianity, I would like to suggest the following:

    1) Drape the arguments in love.
    That Kgosi fellow made an earnest statement with a very sweet spirit. You could discern his loyal and loving character from a mile off.
    Your response was perfect in letter, perfect in law but drenched in frustration thus completely ineffective.

    Social engineers are never driven by frustration. Frustration is a great motivator and an epic illuminator of purpose but a terrible communication platform.

    In essence, you need to be the ‘Sheep among Wolves’ here! ‘Wise as serpents but harmless as doves’. The bible might be useful for correcting, but it will never be a can of whupass to opened up on those you feel are misled. This is simply not its design. I know you like the ‘expel’ bit but make sure you have sown seed for the ‘restore’ bit too.

    Ok, I feel your hackles rise and your self preservation instinct kick in about now, just chill, this is a friendly message.

    Let me quickly explain what you are up against.

    Social engineering is an art employed by Fortune 500 companies on a corporate scale. It was initially exclusively utilized by con-artists but the necessary science in understanding the insecurities of the ‘mark’ proved to be an invaluable weapon for the masters of mass indoctrination. Thus writers like Robert Greene found a voice and a platform to preach the art of manipulation.
    I encourage you to research the subject in detail. Eye opening stuff!

    Propaganda, repeated slogans and focus domination are all very powerful tools of the social engineer. Focus creates blindness in all but the area of focus and shining a bright light into those tightly slit eyes will do nothing but infuriate the patient you intend to cure.
    Your current strategy is shine a mag light into the eyes of the focus blind and then what? “Your entire belief system is a lie, have a nice day”?
    People still need someone to follow and it has to be an accessible human. “Follow ME as I follow Christ”.
    (I sincerely hope there is something far greater awaiting those you aim to rescue when they start following you.)

    Once you shine that light, there needs to be a beacon of love, hope and acceptance flashing in the distance so that those you have rescued may have something to stumble towards in the inevitable fallout and rejection that follows turning ones back on a super movement.

    2)None on this site have the ability to take on monstrous movements. You are simply out-resourced and as you have surely noted via the comments, you aint saving anyone from the seas of ‘apostasy’ (thought you might like that word).

    All you are currently doing is drawing like minded, somewhat frustrated, somewhat embittered allies who have zero fight left in them to vent(a healthy practice) and re-enforce their disillusionment and insecurities.

    I assume your ambition with this site is to warn your target audience of danger and rescue them no?
    Bring sight to the blind, set the captives free and all that?

    Well, let us then on to:

    3) Discipleship
    What you need is a fresh army, armed to the teeth with your (indeed) version of the Gospel. A movement that sweeps across the nation and changes lives from house to house like in the new testament.
    A movement that is propaganda free, despot free and, well, free. (no charge).
    Something that allows you to breath the fresh, perfumed air of forgiveness and release.
    Something so liberating that it breaks the chains of bitterness and opens the floodgates of your potential without fear of judgement, rejection or rebuke.

    Now heed my words:
    The targets of your frustration (Movement leaders) will never take your challenge seriously.

    Nay, social engineering is the art of focus control and if the eye of Sauron looks in this direction then so too shall the minions. Any social engineer with half a brain knows that.
    You are flatulating against a very powerful wind dear friends.
    No super movement leader will engage you because bringing any kind of attention to you will cause division in their ranks.
    Right now you are but one of a thousand voices shouting in the wind, ignored like the yapping noises of a hundred caged animals at the SPCA. You are nothing more than background noise, justified and explained away as fanatics, bitter all.

    Now you might say; “But, but, God is on my side!” and I might agree (were I not a student of strategy).

    Herewith the facts:
    God sends rain down upon both the righteous and the unrighteous.
    Gravity, lift and thrust work for Hitler as well as they worked for Christ – there is zero discrimination in the application of Gods physical, spiritual or natural laws.

    The law of focus happens to be one of them: That upon which you focus becomes your master; To master your fellow man, be the architect of his focus.
    (Social engineering 101).
    This very same strategy can be found in the most powerful tactical command in the history of effective leadership.

    “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    The focus direction there is on the pure, unfettered teachings of Jesus – This is very effective social engineering.

    “But I already have a home church”. If your Home church discusses things like the content of this blog, you are already lost. The words of Christ, not the weaknesses of man are the rock upon which His church is built.
    Sort out the speck in your own eye, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling! get that part right, preach his love and you will see thousands flock from the super movement to join yours.
    There has never and will never be a greater social engineer than God. His strategy is flawless.
    Start home churches like crazy, we currently plant one a day with more than 80 000 across the world in 5 years with no brand and no leader other than each home church leader.
    Whatever you focus upon becomes your master. Choose something with life. This blog reeks of death.

    Right.
    You would fall on your back if you knew what people pay for this stuff.

    I offer it to you as a gift, use it, lose it, whatever.

    Warm regards.
    Eli

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dude

    LOL and seriously, LOL,

    >> If you wanted to find me in the Bible, you would probably call me ‘Eli’.

    If I looked for you in the Bible I would probably find a character similar to yours called ‘Satan’

    So what yer saying is…

    Jesus must have especially lacked social engineering skills when he “..went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves (Matthew 21:12) or
    his disciples must have lacked social engineering skills when Jesus told his disciples “…whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. (Matthew 10:14)

  • Chris

    Halllooooo there Debs!!!!!

    I have read some of the comments regarding the article on At Boshoff.

    It is a pity that some commentators accuse you of becoming personal yet in saying that and accusing you of that, unbeknown to them they have just transgressed the same offence instead of discussing the doctrine it becomes a personal issue.

    What I find interesting is that Petrus mentioned that the Holy Spirit flows through the church on Sunday and it is so thick that one can feel it. The Bible teaches that we as the Bride of Christ is the Church and The Church is not made with brick and mortar.

    When the Lord Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father He said that He will leave His Holy Spirit to all believers who obey Him and that He in this regard will never leave or forsake us as His church. I am glad that I have the Holy Spirit in and with me all the time and that I do not have to go to the church to be filled. Biblically understood it is not the church that gives the Holy Spirit but God.

    I am also thankful to the Lord that His promise is sufficient for me not having to go somewhere to get filled with the Spirit but that He will never leave or forsake me. (I can’t help but wonder what spirit it is that the believer is filled with at a church when the believer should already have the Spirit of the Lord .It can only be the Zeitgeist or the spirit of the age which also proclaims a doctrine foreign to that of the Lord Jesus.)

    Admittedly I also was born again while in a cult of which CRC played a big role. But It was the conviction of God’s Word that saved me. Not the pastor. Not only that I was also saved out of it. One can only get saved out of a cult into the Body of the Lord Jesus.

    I can understand the zeal Petrus has for studying further- the first love is something that must not cool down. Yet it is of concern what He will be studying and where.
    The Bible was made for babes to understand and God will reveal it to the babes by His Spirit. You do not need Bible college especially CRC’ heresy.

    What I find very concerning is that the arguments above do not address doctrine at all in regard to the topic at hand were it is abundantly clear that Mr. Boshoff contorts Scripture out of context to gain money from the people. Is this maybe because of a lack of knowledge or is it because of a delusion God has sent?

    Tithing was a part of the law –Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

    Now if tithers want to go back under the law that is fine – but not with the Lord. These pastors constantly preach freedom from the Law yet they themselves put people back under that law with the burden of tithing – especially those who can really not afford it.

    Tithing in the New Testament is mentioned with regard to the Temple which was still active in the time before the death and resurrection of the Lord.

    The Lord Jesus Himself said when speaking about the destruction of the Temple that He will raise it up in three days – meaning His Body – eventually His people the Church alsol which is not made with brick and mortar. So if someone wants to give any sort of assistance to the Body or the Church give it to those in need – the Temple no longer exists – nore does tithing per definition of the Temple, but giving does.

    I personally know MANY people who have lost a lot of money and have even been bankrupted due to this type of tithing heresy promoted by those who love money and worldliness which is an abomination to the Lord.

    All I can pray for is that Petrus will study the Scriptures prayerfully to receive his own revelation and not that of someone who claims to receive the only revelation. Remember we all as believers are anointed to receive revelation and if your revelation is in line with the teachings of the Scriptures and not that of the pastor, you will have to make a choice between the pastor and the Holy Ghost.

    ————–

    As for die Kleinhond – who seems to be supporting AT Boshoff’s departments of giving and faith is surely as a small dog barking up the wrong tree instead of looking at the Tree Of Life.

    We are not saying that the “giving department????” must be neglected……If you have so much and can give more than 10% you should seriously consider it because the money is not yours at any rate all belongs to God. When you do give, give it to the Church which is the body of believers in need and to spend it on spreading the gospel, not the organization give it to the living bricks of the Body of the Lord who are in need. The living church is not an organization but an organism.

    As for the faith remark – well I can only presume that it must mean that when you give you must sow in faith so you can receive a hundred fold back, especially if At Boshoff’s gospel is supported.

    In the first instance this 100 fold back concerns believers who lost their homes, parents etc etc due to their faith in Christ. What they gained was a 100 fold parents, homes etc etc AND persecution . This means that they in a fashion of the universe, gained eternal homes and families while even being persecuted for their faith. They could enter any home of any believer and be received in love and have a home with a new born again family. This is still so today – or it should be – but I know of few believers today that will accommodate other believers – it is easier to give a tithe to enrich the organization and the pastor – yet the flock of the Lord is suffering – no wonder the Lord made the statement if He will find faith when he returns – speaking of faith!

    Jesus said: Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. ( I prefer the Teaching of Jesus to that of the prosperity teachers who mean this means you will become rich – well then you will also have to have more literal natural mothers and fathers which is impossible funny the persecution part they never quote!)

    Many people seem to think that their faith will bring them prosperity…..Mmmmm lets see……. I personally know believers who are currently being persecuted for their belief in Jesus……..I know MANY who have lost their lives for the Lord………currently as we sit so safely there are many being jailed, tortured and killed for their faith in the Lord. This is true faith – no prosperity in that is there?

    Thinking that faith MUST bring prosperity is a phrase known as “Having faith in faith”

    The word “prosperity” does not feature ONCE in the New Testament only Once do we find the word “prosper” and that is in 3 John where John greets Gauis and wishes him well in regards to his health, soul and living circumstances – but there is no proclamation to prosperity like Crefflo Dollar or At Boshoff etcetera has and promotes. (Ps 73 the rich will have their day of judgment There are more warnings in the Scripture to rich living than blessings.)

    All I can say is that I pray that I trust that the people who have this type of distorted view of faith will think carefully about the Prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostles, disciples and believers of the New Testament up until now who made the ultimate sacrifice for their faith, by loosing their lives instead of prosperity and gaining worldliness.
    Maybe Matthew, Paul, Peter, James etc etc who were martyred as well as The Lord Himself did not have the proper anointing in faith required as the new apostles, prophets, pastors of today???

    It is enlightening to study the Hebrew word “Emunah” or even the Greek “Pisteo” in getting a very pure perspective of faith.

    The faith proclaimed today is that the church will conquer and have the victory for the return of the Lord Jesus. Well the problem is that the Lord returns with the victorious church and not for a victorious church. ( Luk 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.) The Lord returns after the church has been raptured then He as the Ancient of days will restore everything.

    In the above verse it is clear that a wedding takes place with the church before the Lord returns.

    The Prophet Daniel describes this as follow:
    Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

    But first:
    The Antichrist must rule – by conquering the saints – Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; (This is happening increasingly in our time as more and more believers are killed for their faith and godliness increases.)
    The book of Revelation teaches us: Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    How will the Beast and the anti-Christ prevail against the saint and deceive them to follow him?

    Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    (The word for peace in this verse in the King James version and by Hebrew definition also means prosperity)

    The New Testament says: 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (This looks like Jesus on the white horse but it is not)

    Ezekiel 13:10 -16 also warns of this.

    Only after this: will the saints with the return from the wedding possess the Kingdom:

    Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Only AFTER the Ancient of days come back will the victorious church possess the Kingdom.

    To say that the victorious church has already possessed the kingdom of this world is Satanic understanding. Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this world.

    Believers who think that prosperity and possession of the kingdom is now are deceived and have failed the test and temptation Jesus overcame when tested by Satan.

    Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
    Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
    Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
    Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

    Obedient believers are already part of the Kingdom – but it is not yet possessed by them. This is like a pregnant woman with a healthy baby in the womb. She is about to give birth to the child but the child is not out of the womb yet. The saints are sure of the possession but it will only happen when the Lord conquers Satan.

    But let us stick with the topic – Look at what At says and what Jesus says – then decide who you would like to follow.

    I know Who I will follow – definitely not At – I did at one stage – but the Lord fetched me and I know just by looking at the increase in lawlessness as Jesus said would happen that His Kingdom is to come and is not of this world.

  • Chris

    Brilliant the stuff about social engineering.

    Jesus must have lacked the skills of social engineering when he rebuked the pharisees and corrected Peter and others.

    Luke, Paul, Peter James and John etcetera followed Jesus’s example in His lack of social engineering skills when they corrected, excamunicated warned and rebuked the false teachers and prophets so rife in the Bible.

  • Dion

    Dude, Your comments confirm just how empty you are of Biblical truth and how full you are of yourself! Anyone who places any real value to your arguments in favour of social engineering with Jesus (as implied by your silly and unfounded comments) being one of the principal engineers, must be a space cadette like you my friend…

    There are some of us who will continue praying for people like you who think their new age space cadette theories will save them. You are the one who should heed God’s call to repentance as opposed to the continuous belief you have placed in your so-called knowledge and social engineering expertise. I would love to debate you on your new age rubbish but unfortunately, like so many so-called hot-shots like you, this will not take place because they and I’m almost certain so will you, always find a reason not to turn up at scheduled meetings for the purpose, especially when you know that TV cameras and sound will be involved so as to ensure that the world gets to see just how great a fool one must be to believe what you believe, especially when compared to Biblical truth.

    As you sit there behind your impressive desk trying hard to impress any audience with your stupidity which you call wisdom, know this my friend: One day soon, you will stand before His throne of judgment and your shaking knees shall also bow and acknowledge Him as God; unfortunately, unless you come to Biblical repentance sooner than now, it may then be too late for you. Stop glowing in your wisdom which in reality is no kore than self deception; stop trying to impress yourself with what you claim is truth for you; start a REAL research project and study the Bible (even if you do so to “prove” it as just another social engineering tool),and hopefully you will find (as many others have) that God is alive and well and He loves you so much that He does not want you to spend eternity without Him. Even if you were the only sinner that ever lived, He would still have paid the price He paid so that you can be saved.

    Take a bite of this my friend and chew on it; come on.., let’s see if you have the guts you think (and want the world to believe) you have and consider this short unimpressive yet challenging note.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you Chris!!!!

  • Dion

    Petrus my dear dear friend, If you only knew of the great number of people who have suffered as a direct result of having followed pulpit money preachers like At Boshoff (in his case yes, many from his own BFN based congregation have suffered and suffered extensively), then you would perhaps learn that unless you are able to provide Mr Boshoff with your money at a regular and constant basis, you are of no use to him and his personal objectives.

    Why not request a public meeting with him and ask him to explain what your money buys for him and his cronies? Why not be a real man and demand such a public meeting with him? Come on I challenge you to do this! He has been ducking and diving my invitation to meet on a public platform for almost two years now; I wonder why…perhaps you, as one of his loyal followers could convince him to meet so as to suggest that those who speak out against his false teachings “could be put in their place”.

    Is such a public platform not a good, solid, sure platform form him to use to ensure that people like me for example, could be addressed in our continuous attack of the great muscleman? Please take up my challenge and ask your money preacher to respond to some questions so many wish to pose to him…please I beg of you, please. You see my friend, he never will respond. He does not have the courage of his conviction… Sadly, it seems that neither have you. Or am I wrong?

  • Werner

    Dude,

    I believe you when you state that ‘people pay allot for this stuff’. The world indeed pays allot for folly and tickling of the ears…

    Like Rick Warren & Co, you mix worldly pop-psychology, marketing and business with the Word of God. This blog (correct me if I’m wrong Debs), are not a social-friendly, seeker-friendly site. It’s also not to promote what we believe to be the truth of God, it’s rather to promote as you rightly stated, the Acts 17:11 approach, and only God and His Word can be and is Truth…hence these posts only confirm what already transpires in the Word of God.

    We are not interested in starting a movement or an army – but to live out Jude 1:3! I’m involved in strategy myself, and from a professional and secular point of view ‘social engineering’ does not belong in the work or business environment as it’s tactics involve manipulating people, exploiting human vulnerabilities, and influencing groups of people. These tactics border on CULT like methods and techniques; you will be welcomed by promoting your pop-psychology to Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.

    True social engineering in a sense is being able to measure ecology by means of standardised scientific based assessment scales; based on FACTS – help individuals, groups, and organisations to make their OWN choices by giving them a holistic view of their social-anthropology. Since you’re not able or qualified to perform the above mentioned; please do not continue to psychologise, manipulate and brain-wash individuals into your thinking.

    Reading a few books at the local store does not make one an expert in sociology, but reading a few books at the local supermarket on pseudoscience, and believing that you are an expert = ignoramus, bungler, cretin, and dullard!

  • Willem

    Ps At this and Ps At that….that is the only thing you guys can complain about. You quote scriptures and point fingers..I’d just like to know how much money did you collect for the poor in public? How many people have you introduced to Jesus? This man of God doesn’t care what you are thinking/saying about him, he is busy leading +/- 49,000 people and if every single person asks him a question online, when will he get time for me or people like me? How many lives are you changing while complaining and moaning about his holidays ect….if you want to ask him something, you know where he is on Sundays.

    I don’t care, he can be on holiday 24/7, he has done enough for someone else to take over and keep it going. Why can’t he be blessed with holidays / cars / whatever? Or would you like him to suffer for everything CRC has accomplished? Have you ever been on holiday? Do you own a car?

    It doesn’t matter how much money you give to a church or to people in need, keep your money for all I care….it’s between you and God. I like to give my 10% (or whatever) and to go to church because it is one thing the devil can’t take from me. If they didn’t build churches, I wouldn’t be where I am today. I don’t know much about the Bible, honestly, I just choose to give money to help other people like me (and if mine is used for food or a plane ticket to where ever – I don’t give a shit)

    Just one question (and it doesn’t matter if no one answers it because I won’t be back to read the reply as I stumbled upon your “website” by accident): If Ps At is such a bad person and CRC such a bad church, why has God done nothing to stop him? Why do people keep giving their lives for Christ (even the few that doesn’t become members eg. my mother, my friends)

    Ps At doesn’t rule me and he keeps reminding in church that he’s just a man like us, maybe if you went more you would have heard this. It is NOT about what you can get/have on earth, if your not happy, talk to God about it, why moan in public (behind your computer…you know where the churches are) If they didn’t keep asking for money, how many churches would be build/rented or how many prisoners would be listening to someone to change their lives? That prisoner that gets saved might be the one that is not going to kill your wife/husband.

    I’m a sinner, just like any human, but as a new man saved by Christ I’m shaking my head at you self centered words and I will be praying for you. Do yourself a favor and take the Bible out of your ass…and since I’m still in a struggle to leave my old ways, here is something from my past: (and before anyone quotes a scripture, I know it, but still..) Go fuck yourself

    Kind regards,
    A young man that loves Jesus!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    William

    Well now, ain’t that just nice of you. Fantastic calling card!

    A product of At Boshoff’s ‘saved‘ church goers – I shudder to think how many more there are like you. I suppose its expected that you will turn out like this because you don’t know your bible – all you need to do is go to a church, tithe and do good works to be ‘saved‘ by At Boshoff

  • Dion

    Hi Deborah!

    I notice how defensive At Boshoff’s followers are and how their true colors are now being exposed also. We can do no more than pray for these unfortunate blind who are led by the blind.

    I wish some of them would heed my constant invitation to convince At and his cronies to meet upon a public platform to debate their doctrine and their theology.

    Clearly, their current doctrine determines their idea of theology as opposed to the way it should be.

    Oh how sad it is to learn day-by-day just how much the world is deceived and how much they need God in their lives.

    Hold fast my friend.., hold fast.

    Regards.
    Ps. I note that Petrus and Dude have now gone quiet….., or have my hopes gone a little too high?

  • Robbie

    Williamc
    Product of At?… great “testimony” William… for you and AT. Oh and no need to explain your lack of biblical knowledge. It is evident in your comment and interpretation what you think the Gospel should be..

    Why do people curse and swear? – one reason: authority. People want to sound forceful and authoritative when they speak, so they spice their speech up with all sorts of catchy little “power words”. Unfortunately, such words always dishonor God, the Bible, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Friend, TRUTH is all of the authority you need. Just read and compare the truth here as it is revealed in God’s Word and you’ll have no use for “Christian cursing”.

    Remember: “But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.” (Mat. 12:36)

    Ephesians 5:4 – Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.

    Ephesians 4:29 – Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

    Colossians 3:8-10 – But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

    Colossians 4:6 – Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

    Colossians 3:8 – But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.

    Matthew 12:37 – For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    Philippians 4:8 – Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

    And then there is holy living… but let us take one subject at a time – we will do holy living next time.

  • Werner

    Shame Willem,

    You do not love Jesus – you love yourself! Grow-up little boy!

    Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
    ——————————————————————————–
    Job 5:3 I myself have seen a fool taking root, but suddenly his house was cursed.
    ——————————————————————————–
    Psalm 37:35 I have seen a wicked and ruthless man flourishing like a green tree in its native soil,
    ——————————————————————————–
    Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
    ——————————————————————————–
    Jeremiah 3:10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense,” declares the LORD.
    ——————————————————————————–
    Jeremiah 11:17 The LORD Almighty, who planted you, has decreed disaster for you, because the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done evil and provoked me to anger by burning incense to Baal.
    ——————————————————————————–
    Jeremiah 45:4 [The LORD said,] “Say this to him: ‘This is what the LORD says: I will overthrow what I have built and uproot what I have planted, throughout the land.
    ——————————————————————————–
    Ezekiel 17:5 “‘He took some of the seed of your land and put it in fertile soil. He planted it like a willow by abundant water,
    ——————————————————————————–
    Ezekiel 33:31 My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to listen to your words, but they do not put them into practice. With their mouths they express devotion, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain.

    God never spoke of quantity rather quality, so why do you mention 49 000+ people, this has no significance? Error + Error = HERESY!

    And, please, why does God not stop him? Why does God not stop rapes, murders etc? Go figure, we live in a fallen world my boy, so don’t try to justify the unjustly with questions you do not know the answer too.

    Read your Bible and get saved!

  • Beverley

    Hi Deborah
    What my Mom always said about people who talk like this is ….that they are just low class. He thinks he is saved writing like this … you go figure!!

    Anyhow they don’t understand what is going on. Why? because they don’t want to. Talk about ignorance is bliss. They love all this ‘happy clappy’, I am much more precious, holy, saved than you. Besides I tithe and do some good works and come out of church on Sundays feeling such a ‘happy chappy’. I just know I am going to the right church, even if I swear like a rubbish.

    Here is the test they should try. Go to your Pastor and tell him you are broke and could the church please give/lend you some of that money. Just until you come right and are ‘blessed’ like him.

    See what I mean about dropping a ‘brick’. But in this case it is more like a tank.

    Beverley
    In His Grip

  • Chris

    Willem

    You seem to be throwing stones in a bush without really knowing what you are doing. To make a statement to the effect of how much money we collected from the public for the poor shows exactly what the problem is…….. you have no idea!

    You have absolutely no clue as to what we have given personally, not relying on begging from the public, but from our own hard work to earn a keep. We do not rely on heavy shepherding from the flock who are self in need, instead we give to God’s flock who are in need. In Many such instances we have given to those who lost a lot of money due to tithing to CRC. Where were you to help your own flock when they sought the protection and help from your pastor and did not get any help….Mmmm?

    No! We had to help your crippled flock, not you!!!! Where were you???

    You are absolutely correct in saying that we quote Scriptures – well that is the authority on which we rely. Jesus is our authority and it is ONLY by His Word that we preach and warn.

    How many lives are we changing……… well you will have no idea as Jesus is the Saviour and only He knows by the seeds we have planted and others have given water too. God is the one who brings the increase not me, not you and most assuredly not At Boshoff.

    One thing is for certain and that is through the grace of God that MANY who were in a cult like CRC have tested the Scriptures we have quoted hence MANY have come out of CRC – PRAISE THE LORD! So there goes your bad attitude towards quoting from Scripture.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with who has a car etc. All I deduce from this is that you live in your own little world and need to wake up and realise there are other true believers who have more money that your pastor, but this is not by what a person is measured by. Go Read Luke 12:13-21 and don’t be an aggressive ignoramus.

    You ask that if CRC is so bad why does God allow it to go on………well Satan has been around from before CRC and God has not stopped him yet…… but the day of judgement is closer than what you think…..you had better gain knowledge very soon by studying the Scriptures.

    Having said that – you and your pastor may still have time to repent, unfortunately this grace seems not to extend to Lucifer.

    I am quite glad that you have admitted that you are a new believer…… I can now understand that you are not yet able to be on meat…….but my prayer is that you will go study your Bible.

    To render bad concepts towards God’s Holy Word as you have done here is blasphemy and I do really pray that you will prayerfully read the Holy Writ and be in a position to expound the Scriptures which will complete your salvation.

    1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Do not flatter yourself and brag about before you were saved and think that will intimidate anyone……you will be amazed who you are trying to scare……but we do not walk as murderers, drunkards etc anymore.

    You are by your own admission still a baby not even understanding the milk and you are totally ill equipped to fight the good fight so put on the armour first otherwise you are going to get hurt – spiritually speaking.

    What is of concern here is that the sheep (you) are protecting the wolf in sheep’s clothing (At Boshoff) who is the supposed shepherd who should be protecting the sheep.

    Where is the Shepherd in all of this????? Instead of going on holiday he should be out contending for the faith and take up the challenge to debate (we have requested this from At Boshoff numerous times) or must the sheep and little lambs, that is in your case Willem, protect the shepherd????

    Debs I will not be answering little babes like this anymore as it is a total waste of time they have absolutely no Scriptural sense and in fact a person like Willem who still uses a worldly way of arguing makes me wonder if he in fact was saved as the fruit of the Spirit as well as the Word of the Lord is absent in his efforts.

    The only thing we can pray for is for these people who so fervently protect their pastor will with the same fervency study the Scriptures.

    2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

    P.S. I can understand that a fowl word might come accidentally to some, which is bad enough, but to actually take the time to print these words shows you what the result is of salvation in CRC. You should keep these postings as it should be a deterrent to those who want to get” saved” there.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    If I was At Boshoff I would tell his church to not speak on his behalf because they prove that he is a false teacher.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    Thanks for your fantastic reply to Willem.

    I hope he comes back to read it. Let’s pray that if there is any Holy Spirit conviction in his life, the Holy Spirit convicts him to come back and read the replies. He needs sound teaching in his life because he sure as nuts is not getting it at CRC.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Dion

    It’s terrible isn’t it. And all we can do is pray for them. That their blind eyes are opened to the truth.

    The world is so deceived and it’s getting worse and worse and worse to the point that the gospel of Jesus Christ isn’t even preached anymore – its all GOOD WORKS instead. Good works has become the benchmark to prove ones salvation. If it makes you feel good, then then you must be following Jesus, therefore you must be ‘saved’. It’s all in the heart.

    I think Dude and Petrus are not coming back but then again, I’ve spoken too soon sometimes lol.

  • Robbie

    I agree with Debs, Chris…
    I though of David slaying Goliath for blaspheming God’s army.

    yea ok… i thought of a sling and a pebble too

  • Chris

    Yip something comes to mind – Salvation Terminator starring Arnold Schwatzernegger or rather Salvation CRC starring At Boshoff.

  • Beverley

    Robbie – I am all for the sling and pebble … right on!! Terminator is great as well, as long as we get the job done. I thought dropping a brick on their head was a good idea, but now I pefer the above ideas.

    Beverley
    In His Grip

  • Chris

    The contention regarding the doctrine of Mr. Boshoff is not to be taken lightly. There are many who have lost a much when realizing what CRC and Rhema really is about, but often too late.

    There are many, fortunately not all, but many who after getting hurt in CRC who have been so disappointed that they blame God for what has happened.
    It is due to the seriousness of blaming God after such big disappointment that I would like to call those who got hurt back to follow the Lord Jesus.

    Understandably some without the proper understanding may react by blaming God, after all God is love so how is it then that God has allowed this deception in those who have such a zeal for goodness and His love?

    As Paul wrote concerning Israel: Rom 10:1- 3 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    This righteousness of God is only revealed in the Gospel: Rom 1:16 -17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Having the righteousness of God being revealed in the Gospel it is obvious that we should study this Gospel and give credence to the doctrine in this Gospel then ONLY do the just live by faith. That now is where faith is identified and understood.

    Our faith is not faith in positive thinking as the world sees it (We should however follow the Biblical way with a correct rendering of positive attitude), but our faith and faithfulness is revealed in the pages of the Holy Word. The more you study the more you realise your errors and the more the Word leads you.

    Even those who then have a zeal for God as in Romans 10, but not according to knowledge are in danger of deception. As Jesus warned the Pharisees: Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    In the pages of the Bible there are many warnings to take heed against deceivers, false prophets, teachers etc. who are out to mislead God’s flock. If this misleading was not possible then the warnings the Lord and His Apostles gave us are in vain.

    If these deceivers were not to increase in the latter days then the Lord has lied to us which is impossible with God.

    In fact if we do not obey the Lord God’s Word and we do not love the Truth which is His Word a deception is inevitable; 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Salvation continues after you have been saved – the Lord promised that He will continue a good work in those who are saved but obviously freedom comes to those who CONTINUE in the Word and obey the Word.

    Yes, and the Lord Jesus also said that when He leaves us the Comforter He (The Spirit) will lead us into all that is true – but then we need to follow His Spirit and be obedient.

    Interestingly His Spirit is the Words spoken by Him – Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    So the more obedient you are to His Word the more the Spirit will lead you – No wonder the Psalms teach us that His word is a lamp to our feet – hence being guided by His Spirit.

    If we are not lead by this Lamp we WILL go astray AND SOME OTHER SPIRIT WILL BE LEADING US!!

    Remember the Lord gives His Spirit to those who are obedient: Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Those who are rebelliously disobedient will have another Spirit leading them; Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    The Lord has given us the Scriptures which is the true prophetic Word and in this Word He has warned us to study the Word and obey the Word to be able to walk in righteousness and in truth.

    So if we have not studied the whole Council of the Lord, obeyed this Council and then were mislead, we dare not blame God but ourselves – we were forewarned by Him.

    If you are in a congregation where a pastor has backslidden or fallen but has a repentant heart, restore him in meekness, but if he is rebellious and has no repentant heart and does not listen to righteous council withdraw from such.

    My heart’s desire is for Christians who were hurt by “churches” and pastors to return to the pages of the Bible, because in them you will find the Lord’s guidance which will when obeyed lead you righteously away from error to set you free in the Truth.

    My plea is for those who rejected their faith as result of getting hurt by others to return to Jesus the only true Shepherd.

    May God’s grace be extended to you and heal you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> There are many, fortunately not all, but many who after getting hurt in CRC who have been so disappointed that they blame God for what has happened. It is due to the seriousness of blaming God after such big disappointment that I would like to call those who got hurt back to follow the Lord Jesus

    Indeed, we can’t blame God for the evils of men for it is Satan who is behind all that is evil.

    And I speak from experience, just when I got saved, I didn’t know the Word of God at all, I met a ‘church’ and it is here where I lost a LOT of money to a ‘smooth talking so-called godly man’. When I realised what had happened, I NEVER once thought to blame God, no… My reverence for Jesus Christ to not turn my back on Him was far greater than the astounding amount of money that I lost. I got on my knees and asked Jesus for help.

    You see God had been warning me the whole time, but I didn’t listen to Him. He was there for me all the way waiting for me to wake up and LISTEN TO HIM. It was my fault.

    Now it’s a lesson learnt like non other.

  • Starlight

    CRC’s motto is bothersome to me: “I WILL, I CAN”. it sounds like they still need to do a lot of ‘dying to self’.

  • Beverley

    Deborah the same thing happened to me and my family.
    But I was so angry after that I cried out to Lord and said “What is wrong with those people, why did You let me find and stay in that church”.

    A still small voice said to me … “because YOU loved it so, you had itching ears”. I sulked for something like 8 years I was hurt, confused and really, really angry. I had been so duped and ofcourse it was all God fault. What now!

    Eventually I came around after a wonderful man brought me correct teaching that also pointed out about wolves in sheep’s clothing. All that kept coming to me was …”so did you learn anything, from your experience”. I was so set free.

    I believe that it had to happen, it was all part of a learning curve. Now I just thank God, He allowed it to happen. I keep asking God why am I so blessed, why am I able to see so much when others are so blind. I now believe I had to learn, walk through the fire so to speak, to get to where I am today.
    I believe many people will be challenged in this way, the thing is will they turn away and follow the real Jesus. This is the test.

    Beverley
    In His Grip

  • MICHAEL

    HI THERE FELLOW BELIEVERS,

    GOING THROUGH ALL THE COMMENTS AGAIN, IT BOGGLES MY MIND HOW ALL THESE SAVED PEOPLE STAND UP BUT HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORD OF GOD. I WAS ALWAYS CONCERNED WITH THE FALSE PROPHETS AND THERE ARE MANY, BUT THEN THIS VERSE CAME TO MIND

    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

    THE THEY ARE CHURCH MEMBERS, CONGREGATION, PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH THAT ARE LOST GATHER FOR THEMSELVES THE AT BOSHOFF’S. RAY MCAULEYS, ECT.

    THANKS FOR GOOD WORK YOU GUYS ARE DOING.MAY GOD BLESS AND REWARD YOU GREATLY.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bevelery

    >> I keep asking God why am I so blessed, why am I able to see so much when others are so blind. I now believe I had to learn, walk through the fire so to speak, to get to where I am today.

    That is a very good question. Why is it that some like you and I and many others out there can see the truth (sometimes it takes a while, but eventually we do see) and then there are others who just refuse. Is it because back then, deep down we really did love Jesus Christ unlike others who refused the truth? Is it that our love for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is for real where others love is not.

    Something I have been thinking about lately… why do some love Jesus and hear the truth and others dont…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Michael

  • Redeemed

    God always has a remnant. My faith walk took a detour many years ago into the so-called charismatic renewal which included some WoF and the old PTL Club which hindsight showed me was an ecumenical mish-mash straight from the pit.Why did I see the light while others who I tried to pull from the fire did not? I know folks who remained were genuinely saved, but they would not accept the hard facts and the truth.

    One has to have a love for the truth above all else and I think that is where many go astray. Yes, Bev we should consider ourselves blessed in a humble way that we were delivered from the snares of the enemy. The years you spent in the desert prepared you for the lonely road you must travel if you truly follow God and Him alone.

    I am thankful for the work that the Lord has called Deborah to as it is so needed today, not only to try and reach the deceived, but to provide encouragement to those who count the cost and take the lonely road rather than the one most traveled. It helps us realize that although we are lonely, we are not alone in the world. Often we feel disconnected and although we cling to our Saviour’s promise never to leave us or forsake us, we still feel the slings and arrows of the enemy and those who hate us for our stand for truth. It makes us long ever the more for our Lord to come for us. But until then we must press on and run the race set before us. At times I feel as if I am crawling rather than running! :-)

  • Robbie

    >>>… why do some love Jesus and hear the truth and others don’t…<<<

    Must have something to do with a narrow road and a very small gate Debs.

  • Dion

    Michael my friend,

    Pursuant to your comment the other day, this is what Lord Francis Bacon had to say in his life (1561 to 1626) “Men prefer to believe what they prefer to be true…” Then there was a certain Edmund Spencer and English poet who said :”There is a principle which is against all information, which is proof against all argument and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance, that principle is condemnation before investigation…”

    Is it not heartbreaking and gutwrenchingly true of those who defend false prophets like At Boshaff and his ilk, locally and internationally? Deborah, Chris and so many others like them should be carried on our shoulders and should be supported in the work they’re doing in defending the Truth. They will one day get their reward from God I know, but while we are able to support and encourage them in their very demanding task, we should.

    You too my brother, should be encouraged to defend the Faith and stand strong and endure to the very end when God will welcome you into His presence in heaven!

    Keep your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face….

  • Momlovesu

    Hi Deborah,

    My theory on why others don’t want to “hear” the truth is because it will require an action on their part. Most prefer to “go along to get along” because the other option is to confront and be persecuted. In this way they are only serving man, not God. What they don’t realize is the amazing growth in their walk with Jesus Christ they can experience when they defend HIM instead of worrying about their earthly comforts. As hard as it is I can think of no greater honor than to defend my Lord and Savior. Our society today pushes post modernism so much, we mistakenly think it applies even within the walls of our own churches.

    Thank you for your website. I just used your vast amount of information to discuss a couple topics my college aged son asked me this weekend. You are a blessing to my family.

  • Marion

    The answer to WHY “…because THEY received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thes. 2:10b-12)

    Secondly, it also takes humility. Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.” (Matt. 18:17) If we are proud, and “have all the answers” and no need to confess that we don’t and are in need of the teaching of the Spirit who leads us into ALL truth – well – “When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom. The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them.” (Prov. 11:2,3)

  • hilola

    at least Benny Hinn is carrying the great mandate of going to all nations preaching the gospel.Instilling fear and confusion to people poinitng false prophets,,who does it help?the gospel is good news yes Jesus said it to warn those already saved those who actually received the good news.Who are you helping with all this?Would a sinner come to Jesus through this?

  • Werner

    The reason why some cannot see nor hear the truth is because of judgement!

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

    Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

    Whatever THEY want, believe and see, is what THEY will receive!

    Be careful what you wish for, it might become true!

  • Trisha

    I was asking myself similar questions as to why I was so blessed as to have had my eyes opened to the real gospel and been shepherded by Him out of the harlot church, when others who seemed sincere and were doing their best to serve God were continuing to labour with a false gospel. I was no better than these folks, and they were no worse than me. Maybe there is more to it, however, the only difference I could find was the suffering I had experienced in my life. In other words, a little thing called a cross!!! Only by having the veil of our flesh torn through the carrying of a cross, the crucifixion of our flesh nature, is it possible to enter into the kingdom of God. In other words by walking the same narrow Way that Jesus walked, and this is what it means to follow Him. Crossless Christianity is not what we have received from the apostles and prophets, Christianity without a cross is merely another religion that uses His name and gets off onto all kinds of tangents.

  • Michael

    Marion wrote;
    Secondly, it also takes humility. Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.” (Matt. 18:17) If we are proud, and “have all the answers” and no need to confess that we don’t and are in need of the teaching of the Spirit who leads us into ALL truth – well – “When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom. The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them.” (Prov. 11:2,3)

    So very true but actually Marion this is not secondary but primarly as the FIRST sin and beginning of man’s fall was and IS PRIDE in all it’s ugly disguises.

    Man hates criticism…hates to be told where they are wrong…hates correction…hates discipline…prefers lies and flattery to truth as it strokes the ego and boosts self confidence.

    Self worship is the new god of this generation…the late Whitney Houston made a a big hit…”The greatest love of all”…ie to love yourself.
    Children are educated that way…discipline has gone and ego, overconfidence is over irrigated and we have a self-cented indifferent, undisciplined irresponsible society.
    This is one of the signs of the last days as prophesied in the Word of God.

  • Hester

    @ Momlovesu. You said “My theory on why others don’t want to “hear” the truth is because it will require an action on their part. Most prefer to “go along to get along” because the other option is to confront and be persecuted.” Exactly!! but the other side of the coin is also, one has to admit to oneself that you were wrong. Wow! How difficult that is! because I use to have all the “right” arguments lined up in terms of what I have learnt at ‘church’ and then suddenly I had to realise but that was not the TRUTH at all! I found myself suddenly thinking what DO I believe now? And then came the hard work, digging in the Word of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me and daily walking that road. Walking in the Spirit as opposed to the flesh is a constant, second by second reminder of who we represent and we’d better be prepared for much ‘pruning’ and laying down of self. Ouch!!

  • Marion

    Michael…you’re so right, in order to receive the love of the truth, one needs to put receive it as a child…in humility…

  • Trisha

    In seeing the false gospels and many deceptions, it seems to my observation at least that the common denominator between them all lies in the fact that the sheep are feeding on the words of man rather than the words of God. Man coming between God and His sheep – clergy-laity division, in other words. In still other words: religious Babylon – which we are called to come out of. (I haven’t read every single post in their entirety, so my apologies if I’m repeating what others have mentioned.)

  • Michael

    I have noticed a tendency in the falling “church” today and all the individuals and groups represented therein the abuse of the truth…truth can only be absolute but the mystics and cults believe in a “false” truth albeit it is probably true to them…at least relatively so. Emergents,universalists,humanists, mystics,cults, dominionists, false gospel, false religion with all it’s visions,signs,wonders,extraordinary experiences,prophesies,utterances,trances, being slain and drunk in the spirit etc,etc are relative truth to those who have been indocrinated to believe in these things albeit that they have no specific credentials in relating to written scripture. Bible scripture on the otherhand can only be the absolute truth for the absolute true Christian…the bible is either absolutely correct or it is absolutely false…the same applies to Jesus of Nazareth…He is either the absolutely true Son Of God and is everything He claimed to be or if not the biggest charlatan of all…there are NO half-measures.
    Each person and culture has developed their own definition of what right or wrong is. This theory is morally unacceptable because it implies an act can be right for someone even if it is cruel, hateful or harmful. Culture or ones personal preference does not dictate what is right or wrong. Neither can religions, for each area may have its own religion that came down to them from previous generations. There must be a greater standard, one that is more correct and more sure for us to live by. Otherwise we are left to invent our own opinions that will change in time because of our culture.

    The definition of Relative truth- Truth that is true at only one time and at one place. It’s true to some people and not to others. It’s true now but it may not have been true in the past and it may not be again in the future, it’s always subject to change. It is also subject to perspective of people

    The definition of absolute truth-Whatever is true at one time and at one place is true at all time’s and at all places. What is true for one person is true for all person’s. Truth is true whether we believe it or not. Truth is discovered or it is revealed, it is not invented by a culture or by religious men.

    There are absolutes, all of reality proves this. What we find is that the Christian world view is the most consistent with reality. There is truth and there is falsehood one cannot find what they are wrong in unless they have an ultimate standard. God believes in objective truth because he is that standard. The difference is that as Christians we believe God determines what is true and right which he has instructed in the Bible. Those who hold to the relative position believe man does and he can change as he wills.

    EX: of absolutes – we all need air to breathe, to live we all need food and water. this is true for all people everywhere at all times. Gravity works the same everywhere here on the planet.

    EX: one cannot be dry and wet at the same time. Something cannot be true and not true at the same time, one must be false or both, but both cannot be true. One cannot go forward and backward at the same time. One cannot live in the past and the future at the same time. Time goes forward it cannot go backward. No one is getting younger instead of older. You cannot have two Mts. Without a valley. You cannot have a stick with one end. You cannot be asleep and awake at the same time.

    EX: George Washington was America’s first president but he no longer is. His being the first president of the US was true for all time and for all people in all places. There will never be a place at any time this is not true. He can never be the 20th president, So it is an absolute truth but for his time.

    Believing something that is not true.

    What is true for one person is true for all people-If the ancients people believed the earth was flat it is true for all men at all times and places. It will never be false that ancient man believed the earth was flat. It may not actually be true that the earth is flat, but it is true they believed this. So this is truth for their time, but that is not a description of absolute truth. If one only believes it to be true then they are not making a truth claim. Belief statements are not truth statements, one is simply declaring their belief. Such as If someone said I can fly. To you that belief may be true, but not the statement itself. Truth is to be a justifiable belief. It needs to be proven at least logically and agree with reality.

    A religious ex. God cannot exist and not exist at the same time. Only one of these views is true, because we are dealing with reality. They are contradictory and the world should be consistent with reality.

    Relativism cannot be true- claims of relativism depend on which vantage point the observer stands from. Relativism cannot be true- claims of relativism depend on which vantage point the observer stands from. If your standing on the right side or the left side it all becomes the perspective of the viewer. One could actually say an event did not occur from their vantage point while others experienced it.

    If relativism were true then the universe could contain actual contradictory conditions and truths, which is impossible. Opposites cannot both be true, its contradictory and denies the laws of non contradiction. This law is undeniable, you can’t not use it without using it and you can’t deny it without using it, so its literally undeniable. Contradictions both cannot be true at the same time so the relative view is false. Ex. If relativism is true than to an atheist God does not exist, but to a believer he also does exist. Opposites cannot both be true. If relativism is true then nothing could be true. Why? For one cannot claim that it is an absolute truth, that something is only relative truth for him. This is like saying I’m absolutely certain everything is relative. Then everything isn’t relative if he is absolutely certain. But if everything is relative to each different person, to this one , and that one , ad infinitum, then its not true at all and everyone is believing falsehood. If relativism were true you can never be mistaken or wrong or learn anything. Because its true to me at that time and it may not be another time , by my own standard even if I’m wrong its true. You can only find out what is wrong if something is true. There has to be a ultimate standard of measure that is truth.

    The problem lies in the root of relativism, that there is no absolute truth.

    EX: 2 + 2= 4. But what if someone told you it was 5, 2 +2 always equals 4, someone comes along and says it’s now 5. You can change it, but it would not be consistent to truth and reality. For something to be true it must be true before, true now, and true in the future. Truth does not change . Because it’s absolute , especially when it comes to God. What if you learned 2 + 2 your whole life were 5 does that make it true? Or were you taught falsely. For one to learn their must be truth, absolutes or all education is a farce. You’d be ever learning and not coming to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim3:7) So if you took 10 years of college education at the end you’d be right back where you started and the no better for it. Because what you knew when you started, which was a state of ignorance on the subjects you were going to become educated on, 10 years later did not progress you in the pursuit of learning.

    The Greek philosopher Protagoras said “man is the measure of all things.” This means each person can decide there own standard for right and wrong living. What is morally right for me, may be wrong for another. this is the essence of relativism.

    This means cruelty and hate can be right for someone to practice. If society practiced this we would self destruct. Our culture has community values that are shared to protect harm to others.

    If all truth is relative than would you feel safe to let your child play with a child molester since that is his truth. Would you allow someone who does human sacrifices befriend your family? Obviously relative truth can sometimes be harmful.

    How do we find out if what we believe is relative or absolute?

    There are standards we all use each and every day in science, mathematics. We calculate a space shots by using mathematics . In construction we measure what we cut so it will fit the blueprints of what is being built. All these transfer over into different languages and cultures but we share it as universal. These are not absolute truths since we can change them and still share together the same measurements but they are a standard that we all operate in. But their are other laws if violated have drastic consequences. It doesn’t matter what country your in or what race you are or what religion you practice if you fall off a building you will hit the ground the same. So gravity is a universal principle for man. the same would be for deep sea pressure. if you go down to quick or too far you get the bends. These are natural laws we are to respect or we can be see drastic results. Nature can’t be changed ,like mathematics it is constant adhering to laws because nature was made by the creator.

    We can’t test truth by our feelings. You can’t feel error, but you can use your mind to think truth. You cannot distinguish good and evil by your feelings because evil (sin) feels good.

    Truth is not the opposite of falsehood it is the absence of falsehood. Evil is not just the opposite of good, it is the absence of good. To decide that something is evil means one must have a standard of truth. Whether it is the Bibles or their own they are living by someone’s standards.

    Our society has become self deciding what is good, humanism is trying to do what is right without God in the equation. The humanist doesn’t need religion because he is confident that the heart of man is basically good. Even though humanism as an “ism” shares many common practical values with Christianity (ethics?), but the humanistic concept of “good” is on a collision course with Jesus’ view of “good.” The humanist’s standard of goodness must be low enough for the average person to be able to meet it requirements consistently. God’s standard of goodness is perfection. This is why a humanist must make his own standard otherwise he will be unable to meet it. And of course that can all change in a whim. Although humanism can make the world better in some respects its standards still are relative to the culture and time. For example many things were given in the past as cures for sicknesses would be rejected today as harmful. But at the time it was with good intentions. So humanism has no cure for evil nor can it explain it. Christ who is God and the ultimate good is the only answer.

    “The heart is deceitfully wicked,( incurably sick). (Jer. 17:9). God the creator is the only one capable of fixing what is broken in man. We need a touch from a divine agency the great physician himself. Their is only one universal remedy to restore our alienation from God and cleanse us from guilt. God has given mankind the blood of Christ as the cure to remove the innate problem of sin. No other religion claims to solve the sin factor because they don’t believe it exists, this includes the humanist. Their remedy is education and ethics. I don’t believe this is the answer, some of the most depraved people in the world are well educated with Ph.D.s. If one educates a thief, you only increase his capacity to steal, education is not the solution. Neither can we make a sinner look any better with solutions from man. We don’t need a cover-up for our falling short, but an uncovering to see our sin that separates us from God.

    When we see our sickness and how desperate we are in need of his cleansing from sin. Then we are open to the truth that is found in only one place.

    What Jesus does is from the inside out, what man does is from the outside which can never affect our fallen nature inside. Humanism like religion gives us rules and regulations to live by, only Jesus reforms us from the inside.

  • Dion

    Hester my friend, You are spot on with your assessment and comment iro Nomlovesu! THAT is where the real problem lies. People do not really know God for Who He is and what He did for them. They do not know enough of Him so as to know ALL of Him as revealed in His Word (His attributes is usually a good place to start),they only know the “love” part and the ABBA Father part the latter of which they consider a license that “allows” them to see Him as their “Daddy” their “pal” their “go-to-man in time of need of selfish earthly things” so therefore, they do not see His righteousness, His holiness, His absolutely non-negotiable standards and for this reason they will not see their own depraved sinful condition from which they have to repent. This repentance has to be in line with what God’s Word says repentance is all about. Getting to that very necessary point of ackowledging who and what you are compared to who and what God wants you to be so that He could have His way in your life, and for His glory.., THAT is where the problem lies. If only people could know that THAT very necessary point in life is where the TOTAL solution lies also! If man does not get to KNOW WHO God is, man will not see his desperate and serious need for repentance. How sad is that! Bless you my friend and Bless you too Deborah my dear sister!

  • First Timer

    Went to CRC Pretoria first time today, what I heard is the property portfolio needs additional R60 Million. Rich and poor should please pull together and make this happen.

  • Sarah

    Doxa Deo and CRC are nothing more than cults masquerading as Christianity….

  • I would like to share a letter on the Internet from egypt. I have a Christian website http://www.christianonnet.com for Christian networking, and there are always new updates about terrible events in egypt. I have promised the writer that she is anonymous, but she hopes that the world is about to react.
    Hi Tom
    What happened during the elections was that the Muslims brotherhood pressured the simple Muslim families in order to vote for the… Paid them money, told them in mosques that supporting the liberal party is like wanting the Christians to take over the country, and told them that if they don’t vote for the Muslim brotherhood they are doomed for hell. See, 60 % of the Egyptian community is illiterate but they are the majority and they tend to believe anything they are told if referenced from the Quran. I also heard from several people that they were piling up tons of voting papers right after the elections and burning them! To others watching from the outside, we seemed to have a real democratic procedure here… But we didn’t. Also, the Muslim brotherhood (MB) and the Salafists succeeded in changing the attitude of the simple Muslim families to turn against the Christians. We are today considered by most of them strangers in our own country. If one Muslim testifies (in truth or lie) against any Christian, that Christian is doomed! That’s how things are here in Egypt today. What is worse, Muslims kidnap teenage girls and young women, rape them, and force them into becoming Muslims. If they refuse, they are beaten up and tortured until they give in or until the die. It’s not much different than the persecution at the time of the Romans except that those who have money are very much able to buy way out. Unfortunately, only those who live here experience this and know much more about it than most people who live in the developed world. Nonetheless, I am glad that the truth is starting to spread… Even if slowly.
    Please pray for the Christians here. Thanks. and God Bless You all

  • I got this web page from my pal who shared with me on the topic of this site and now
    this time I am browsing this web site and reading very informative posts here.

  • Karel

    I have a question Jesus says in Matt 7:16 that you will recognize false prophets by their fruit, but At Boshoff has built a large church led hundreds of thousands of people to Christ and is truly blessed in everything he does and in all areas of his life. Is this not good fruit? Although I am not a member of CRC I prefer to follow Luke 6:37 and not to judge any man lest I be judged if there is something wrong with At’s interpretation of the Bible the Lord will be the one to tell him once we get to heaven but it is not our place to decide that our interpretation is without flaw and judge a man according to that. So people are you 100% sure that your doctrine is 100% correct cause if your not I would think twice about taking on other people’s doctrine as with whatever measure you measure it will be measured back to you.

  • Rofhi

    Hi Guys,

    Do i still have to continue to pay my tithes?

  • Lynne

    Regarding hilola’s comment: If Benny Hinn were preaching Gospel yes, but if a false prophet/teacher is going to ends of earth & preaching falseness & even possibly using deception and/or occult power he/she is not in Christ & you should not want to partake of their sins by defending them. Pointing & warning of false teaching & then sharing what is genuine & true is the way to go. I dont know if this iste does it…just tuned in but saw the comment & know that Benny Hinn is not! May God bless & may God guide you & the whole Church in all things.

  • Chris

    Karel, Yes you are correct in saying that people are to be recognized according to their fruits. The fruits however are commonly misunderstood as quantity rather than quality. Galatians tells us what the fruits are: Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    Be very careful to recognize quantity in numbers as good fruits. The Lord Himself said that the way is narrow and few will find this road, especially in the last days where there will be an apostasy or falling away from the truth.

    In fact be very wary of large numbers – the Bible warns us that this will not be the case in the last days.
    In fact it would seem as if he is leading many people to the Lord – read Matt. 23 to see where some were converted into. I was at CRC and I know for a fact based on sound doctrine that At Boshoff is misleading people due to a doctrine totally foreign to that of the apostles – one simply has to read the Bible and compare it to what Boshoff teaches.

    Bringing another gospel within the perimeters of doctrinal error will mislead those who do not have enough Biblical discernment to be able to distinguish truth from error.

    Yes and you are totally correct to say that At Boshoff has built a large church. This is not the church where the Lord Jesus is the head but rather At Boshoff.

    How in the precious Name of the Lord can anyone build a church or the church. This is only done by God. At Boshoff cannot “build” the bride of Christ only the Lord Jesus Christ has this divine ability.

    In acts 2 we read clearly: Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Karel, one simply cannot take one verse out of the Bible and say that that is gospel you need to look at the context and quoting Luke 6:37 to mean one ought not to judge at all. The word used in Luke means to condemn or punish unfairly without righteous judgment.

    Look at John 7:24 the Lord Jesus Himself gave instruction to judge righteously Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    Paul said to the congregation at Corinth it was a shame that they lacked judgment amongst themselves: 1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

    I personally have the same sentiment as Paul in the “church” today. People lack judging themselves and the congregation. This is exactly why the church is in the mess it is in today a lack of judgment will lead to a lack in discipline which will have the effect of a morally weak and bad church and sinful church. A church with absolutely no discernment at all.

    In 1Tim 5:20 we read that one who sins should be rebuked publically so others will fear. Just look at the multitude of verses in the Bible condoning rebukes. How then will anyone be in a position to rebuke if he is not able to judge first?

    We are instructed to watch out for false teachers and prophets – how will this be possible if we are called not to judge?

    There are plenteous instances in the Bible where we are instructed to judge – but it has to be righteous.

    Concerning doctrine: One has to make sure that you do not formulate your own doctrine. People were astonished at the doctrine of the Lord Jesus. This He left us in His Word and we need to know and learn and abide by His doctrine. Paul calls everyone to be of one mind – so nobody may interpret the Bible as he or she wants to otherwise we will not be of the same mind.
    If we find that the likes of At Boshoff has brought a foreign doctrine and would want to debate him in public he a=has a perfect opportunity to defend that doctrine and to prove others wrong – so why has he not responded? Because he does not have the Biblical knowledge to do so!
    Correct Doctrine is extremely vital to the survival and wellbeing of the church.
    As Paul instructed Timothy: 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

  • Chris

    Hi Rofhi, You can pay anything you want to, just make sure it is not to make your pastor rich. The church is supposed to consist of persons who are saved. Some of these dear people lack in many ways. To give to the body of Christ is a necessary command according to James: 1Jn_3:17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

    Giving to BELIEVERS who are in need is giving to the church. The church is made up of persons not brick and mortar.

    But tithing is to be under the law and the law is done away with in Christ. You do NOT pay tithes which are forced on you as result of Malachi 10. What about the previous verses in Malachi where the Lord is also unhappy because they offer faulty animals as sacrifices. Does this now mean we also have to offer spotless animals as sacrifices??? – that is done away with in Jesus once and for all.

    People and so called theologians using Malachi 10 as a means to extract money from God’s precious flock are misled and Scripturally ignorant. Hence our endeavours to debate them but they NEVER pitch up and if they do they become silent.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> the property portfolio needs additional R60 Million. Rich and poor should please pull together and make this happen.

    Unbelievable. There should be a special giant tax for churches who earn mega-bucks as they con the flock.

  • Albert

    may I ask what can be done to stop CRC?

  • Chris

    Albert. This is the way things are supposed to be going in the last days before the return of the Lord. There will be many false teachers, prophets and Christs.

    First there must be a falling away from the truth – 2 Thess. 2:3 plus these people who follow these clowns are at the time in history when they will not endure sound doctrine but will heap up to themselves teachers while having itching ears and turn away their ears from truth – 2Tim 4 We also read about this in 1Tim 4 and 2Tim 3.

    what is fact however is that not only these false pastors are to blame, but the very people who have the itching ears who keep these wolves fed and hunting.

  • New To CRC

    I am told through CRC members UK that the only way my soul can be saved is by bieng baptised. Is this true because I have noticed a very cult like fashion of worship, membership format etc which is where my concern lies.

    I have been baptised as a baby, confirmed as a youth and have always attended church. My believe is in Christ and in the holy bible. I try to live my life as a believer but I know that as a human I am not without sin. I endeauvor to instill Christian values in my childrens upbringing.

    I have no problem with tithing/giving to the church as long as it is used for the purpose it is intended which is to benefit those in need and to spread the gospel.

    However there is something about CRC that does not sit well with me and I can’t place it or am I just sceptical about the way they proclaim the word.

  • Albert

    “new to CRC” hmm Pst Thabo is by far more cunning with words and preaching than even At from the mother church. I know the UK CRC very well- and even most of the members. I know a lot of their believes, some are very good and some are very dangerous. I have seen families torn apart by Thabo asking even members (and a pastor i know) to cut away from family because they are not in Gods will- well as far as Thabo was concerned. To be honest with you i do not want to just point fingers and blame it on the end times as Chris, and i do not want to speak with bitterness about these things as it seems Deborah does, but i do want to speak truth about what i know and what i saw with my own eyes. Maybe it will give you a fuller picture of how things are done in CRC or maybe not- that will be your choice. Email me at [email removed] and ill be happy to chat with you some more…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Albert

    >> To be honest with you i do not want to just point fingers and blame it on the end times as Chris, and i do not want to speak with bitterness about these things as it seems Deborah does,

    What you just did there, that is called SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS buddy! So you can warn others but we can’t, because you are “special”.

    Don’t comment again, you are blacklisted

  • Chris

    New to CRC.

    There are many discussions on water baptisms.

    What is of importance is that having been baptizedin and confirmed when still an infant bears no value at all.

    What is of value is your re-birth which can only happen when one is old enough to make a choice for the Lord after repentance – infant baptism does not include this as an infant is unable to make that decision and knows not of what to repent of.

    After this there are instructions to be baptised in water – but your salvation does not depend on water baptism – water baptism in this sense takes the place of the Lord’s redemptive work on the cross which is the crux of the gospel. Anything in its place becomes idolatary!(Baptism becomes an idol if it takes the place of salvation by Chris alone)

    When the thief on the cross accepted the Lord Jesus for Who the Lord was……the Lord Jesus did not tell the thief to climb down from the cross to be baptized in water first before he would qualify to be in Paradise with the Lord.

    Your waetr baptism after salvation of your soul is an outward testimony of being dead to sin and coming out of the water a testimony to your resurrection as a new creature in the Lord Jesus.

    Yes, and nobody is completely sinless after salvation, but one WILL need to run the race of holiness in obedience to the ordinances of the Lord and continue to strive and exercise unto holiness.

    As concerning being a new convert to CRC I am not even going to advise a cautious approach by giving an orange light on a very busy and demonic intersection. The light there is RED.

    Come out of that cult and follow the Lord Jesus. God adds those who are saved to valid and true church. No man can add you to this church and you yourself cannot add yourself to this church.

    Read: Acts 2:47 – Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    The big deception is that people are being baptised and confirmed into something called the church – this is works by man and not grace by faith in the Lord where the Lord adds one to His Church, His Bride.

    Remember many are called but few are chosen!!

    I pray that the Lord will make you see this precious truth.

  • Chris

    Albert
    Please quote Scripture when you make statements like you did regarding Deborah and I.

    You will notice that I quoted Scripture – so this is not me as Chris speaking but the inspired Word of the Scriptures.

    My opinions mean nothing that is why I would not say what I “think” as I stand in judgment of the Lord.

    Be careful not to use your own ideas – use that which is written otherwise you will have to answer to God!

  • New To CRC

    Thank you for your insight and comments.

    I will pray for the Lords guidance.

  • Chris

    New to CRC.

    It is accepted to pray to the Lord for guidance but please also rember that the Lord has given us His Word and His Word is a Lamp unto our feet. His Spirit will also lead us into all the truth.

    That is if we know His Word, then become obedient to His Word – then only will we be guided by the Lord.

    I pray that you will study His Word then have the power of the Holy Ghost to do what the Word says.

    May the Lord keep you

  • Dean

    What amuses me is people get saved through a ministry and we have a certain cats choir that bashes the work of God and think they know it all. my guess is you lot have been offended by the church and never grown past your own noses. I was saved in crc pretoria 7yrs ago, and now serve God in a foreign country (not sent by crc and now serve in a different local body). praise God for At Boshoff’s obedience, if he wasn’t obedient, myself and my family and many friends would not know Jesus. I still listen to many of At’s sermons. At’s obedience has had a huge impact on my life and my minstry in the middle east and all this while he is not even aware of it. the last time i spoke to At Boshoff was 5yrs ago. Muslims are coming to faith and being discipled by some one, myself, who got saved in crc. But hey i guess this is the work of the devil?? one thing i know is Jesus is very much present at crc. but you lot on this sight clearly do not know what Jesus thinks of his universal church. rev 3: 14-22 might help, Jesus says “i stand at the door and knock”. Jesus wasn’t even in this church, he was at the door knocking, yet still addressed it as a church (his body) in verse 14. So before you slander ANY church, think twice.

  • Chris

    Quoting Gre Gordon

    Asking the Father in Secret

    Never in the history of Christianity [have so many preachers used their sermons to beg] for money. Is God broke? God says “blessed are the poor,” we say in our twisted days “blessed are the rich.” God says “godliness with contentment is great gain,” we say in our materialistic age “godliness is great financial gain!” As I am writing this article there are 1000s of T.V. preachers begging for money. There are 10,000s of people opening envelopes and emails [from] ministries pleading for financial support. What a travesty that the first impression of the mind of unbelievers in North America is that Christianity is about money.

    I admit personally in my life and ministry there were times where I asked for financial support and went against my conscience in that matter. I do believe there is reason and balance and it will vary from ministry to ministry of making some need known. But I do feel the best and most excellent way is to serve God and ask the Father in secret for your needs.

    –Greg Gordon (Editor of Old Paths magazine)

  • Chris

    Dean.
    I can understand your frustration because I was also in favour of At Boshoff as well as in CRC for some time. If anyone questioned At Boshoff or CRC I was not happy and thought that those who came up against At, did so without proper discernment and was not to judge.

    However after investigating At Boshoff’s teaching and comparing it with Scripture I was taken aback by the differences and the opposing sermons At had conducted in CRC. I simply had to decide between At Boshoff’s rendering of the Gospel versus that which the Lord Jesus, Paul, Peter James, John etcetera taught.

    I do not blame you for mentioning how amazed you are at the multitudes that – get saved – at CRC but as Paul wrote to the Galatians especially chapter 3:1 where Paul asks the Galatian congregation who has bewitched them (The word “bewitched” in the Greek is ‘Baskaino’ meaning fascinated or amazed) I was also amazed and fascinated by all the “saved” there.

    I would want to caution you however that salvation comes by hearing the Word or the Gospel and clearly At is teaching a foreign gospel as you would have noticed at the beginning of this discussion.

    What I still find amusing is that everyone who stands up for At Boshoff regarding this article has never defended the contortion of the Scriptures above y At – Biblically that is – to investigate At’s interpretation versus sound exegesis.

    Your accusation that people who stand up for the truth “have not grown past their own noses” is unfounded because it is the Scriptures that led us away from At, CRC etcetera. I would caution you in this regard, because you are not slandering us as such but the Scriptures and what the Lord Jesus taught us through His Word.

    You are welcome to invite Boshoff and to join him to debate the matter on camera – but then again this will not happen.

    Yes and how often have I heard that people were saved by At Boshoff in CRC. Well the Scriptures are clear and that is that salvation is only through Christ and Him alone. The question is what are people getting saved into – my opinion is the same rubbish as mentioned in Matt23. (I have personally counselled many people who had gotten extremely hurt there. In fact I have correspondence from senior pastors who were once very close to At who calls CRC the seat of Satan…………Again the question arises – with such false and counterfeit doctrine…… where are people saved into?

    You mention that At is obedient and I presume to the Lord………..well if this is the case whay does he teach so many opposing doctrines to that of the Bible…..the Lord’s Word that is either ignorance and hopefully that only and at worst it could be rebellion if done on purpose………I pray the latter is not the case.

    If you are of mind that At Boshoff is obedient and preaching the truth , have to caution you on the grounds of: James 3:1 NOT MANY [of you] should become teachers (self-constituted censors and reprovers of others), my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people; thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation].

    Please do not feel that you are someone special because you reach out to Muslims many of us do the same – only difference is that we do not make converts twice the sons of the devil as the Lord warns the Pharisees in Matt23.

    Sound Hermeneutics is of utmost importance when reaching out and caring for the unsaved and saved – something that is at NORM not evident in CRC!!

    I think you accusation that our perception of the universal church is lacking needs to be investigatet a little more by you – go study Revelation 3:14 -22 carefully and you will find that the church the Lord is knocking at to let him in is a materialistic church who say that they are rich and blessed – this is CRC the very church you think is correct.

    I Quote the Lord: Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
    Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
    Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    This is what the last church dis[pensation looks like before the Lord’s eminent return……..this is now……..this is close and this is CRC!

    My prayer is that you investigate the Scriptures vs At’s gospel of prosperity and materialism the rich and materialistic CRC and that the Lord grant you eye salve to see as he did with me and so many others then you will see that our sight is well beyond our noses.

    Remember we are willing to conduct an open debate in public and with cameras – is At availible?

  • Dean

    ok buffalo bill. you will have your portion with the divisive. As for crc, they will continue to be blessed, grow and multiply. As for me (who has no part in crc), your so called wisdom and comments are water off a ducks back. Good thing we have been warned about people like you.

  • Chris

    Dean
    Please put your “boldness” where your mouth is into practice. Come and do the debate in public and on camera -you and At Boshoff and any of CRC’s senior or Rhema’s senior pastors.
    If you however come alone please consider bringing someone of senior authority with you as you are clearly ignorant and we will need someone with a little more – so perceived by yourself- with clout to effectively do the debate.
    It is easy to sit and comment but to contend for the faith like Paul did and we are willing to do is not for the faint hearted like yourself – come on the invitation is here!
    Please forward this invitation to them as we had already done so and have heard not squeak accept from the mice on this blog who are also too weak to step out and debate.

    As your comments reflect – nothing said and nothing done……………??????

  • Dean

    You my friend need to take a good look in the mirror.

    Do you fail to notice that u started this ridiculous blog in 2010? nearly two yrs later ur sitting behind the pc still demanding ur debate?

    i hope u wont be here in another two years or 20yrs! at least i wont, as this is my last reply. about ur invitation,

    1) i live in the middle east (or did u ignorantly forget? coz u too wrapped up in the affairs of ur emotions?), i certainly wont be waisting money, time, effort on ur baseless claims
    2) even if i was in SA, id be doing just what AT and the rest of CRC is doing… ignoring u and keep building the kingdom.

    After all of this u still “ignorantly” assume i am connected to crc? either u cannot read or ur just too wrapped in ur purposeless affairs. snap out of it and go and do something, the church doesn’t need u to go and investigate every body and seek the “false prophets”.

    We were given the Holy Spirit for that and the gift of discernment. I suggest you allow God to tell the believers where they should and should not be. when did it become your job? get over ur offenses, stop dividing the church.

    u have 1 of two choices (1- write back about all ur garbage of debating and criticizing everybody like u been doing from the word go, and then do this for the next 20yrs OR
    2- Get over ur offenses like the rest of those who were offended by crc, including myself, bless the church (ur personal enemy, as Christ demands of us from scripture), and move on with ur life. all the best, bye.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dean

    Actually this blog has been around for a longgggggg time just under different hosting providers and different names and plans to be around until Jesus comes back to fetch His Bride :)

    >> After all of this u still “ignorantly” assume i am connected to crc?

    Well you speak about it like you were AT’s bestest friend and if you were to meet him again he would throw his arms around you and hug you like in Spartacus did his friend in the move Spartacus lol.

    >> We were given the Holy Spirit for that and the gift of discernment.

    Yes we are, but some people have a false spirit and can’t tell the wood from the trees. Also Christians are to encourage, teach, exhort, rebuke one another through the Word of God.

    Jesus exposed false teachers, the disciples exposed false teachers and we do the same today. Anyone who does not want false teachers exposed must be questioned, like yourself as to why you want the wolf to get away with murder.

    We are not offended by At or the CRChurch, we are offended by the FALSE TEACHINGS they preach because they mock and insult JESUS CHRIST and His children of God, and these false teachings enslave people and send people straight to hell.

    We do not believe in Kingdom Now theology Deon, YES we preach the gospel that people will be saved and also come out of cults like CRC, but we believe in a Millennial reign with Jesus Christ, not a Kingdom now to be built by Christians (which is unbiblical).

  • Chris

    Hi Debs,

    Ditto – a clear lack of knowledge on Dean’s side. I will not be going further with this – no theological sence in this person and absolutely no discernment whatsoever.

    Blessings there to you Debs.

  • Andre

    Hello. Who are you people? I went to At Boshoff’s CRC in Welkom on Wednesday (2nd time, 1st time was almost a year ago and he then did the money thing) Personally I didn’t feel closer to my God or felt anyting actually. I even took 2 people with because they are my friends and it was a harvesting event. They felt the same. Problem is, I was invited there by friends and they like the place. We have had strong dissagreements about CRC the past 2 days and I said I will follow up on it. So then I found you guys here. I know AB is zealous and driven but have suspissions about what drives him (like you I am pretty sure it is the Rands). I know I do not feel what I am supposed to in CRC but the service is twisty and fast and the music is disruptive actually. Praise was difficult under mega singers, massive sound and overbearing drums. I need to get my friends out of there quick but need to know more about AB. Does he own other bussinesses, properties? Does he use politics to further the church, his (AB’s)ambitions?

    I haven’t read all of your blog yet, time issue today, but will tomorrow. Again – how do I get my friends out of there. They are good people and know the bible well but perhaps a bit gullable.

  • Andre

    This is for Deborah (don’t have your e-mail)

    WOW. Okay I now read all of it. I really would like to contribute to the discussions and I am very very happy with the full way in which the gospel is interpreted. I do not want to attack anyone. I know oom At is wrong, he knows he is wrong (anyone with that much money from spreading the Gospel and knowing the Gospel knows he is wrong). I liked “DUDE”s comments, although it is futile to try and link it to the bible but social engineering (mass manipulation) is how sects operate – and politics and the entire marketing industry. I think “DUDE” did you a favour by showing people how they work and that it is not based on scripture and they are playing them. That is where the Devil is strong, in marketing because he just keeps hammering on what we see around us, on what we know. If God had to advertise heaven people would join churches for the bennifits and not because of His love, so He doesn’t market it, plus He Won already.

    Can I please just say that I think you are doing something great and brave but please do not get involved in silly battles that pulls you away from the war. The Holy Spirit will finish what he lead us to start, we must not stop being lead by him. He doesn’t only have one person all the time. I am bubbling with excitement so this communication isn’t structured too well, but I had to say that. And another thing: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. Please reply soonest and I pray that we all move closer to God’s truth amidst all these inaccuracies and blatant lies. The lies started small but over centuries they ammassed to where they are now, so they are deeply entrenched.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andre

    I am not sure if I was supposed to post your comment… oh well :) THANK YOU!!! And you are so right about being bogged down in silly battles, it’s something I am working on preventing ;) There are lots of things I have come to realise over the long run of this blog, and one is to cut short those who are only in it to argue. The truth is the truth, end of story. Then there are the few that need genuine Christian love and some good truth preached to them.

    Yes, ‘Dude’ did me a favour all right, there are lots of people who do me lots of favours on this blog by commenting and in doing so help me expose their own false teaching. That’s the only reason why I allow the comments section. The ‘followers’ help me expose their false teachers by explaining in their own words the nonsense they believe. So when ‘seeking’ Christians come alone, guided by the Holy Spirit, Christians who are being called by God to come out of this evil Babylonian (Vatican)’Christianity’ they will read these things, ‘get the fright of their lives’ and realise what they have been following all along and remove themselves from ‘HER’ Rev 18:4 “Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.” (Gen 19:12; Isa 48:20; Isa 52:11; Jer 51:6; Jer 51:45; 2Cor 6:17)

    So thank you for your comment, Andre. I am excited that you are excited!!

  • Andre

    No worries Deborah. The more time I have to think the more I realise this guy is devouring people’s time with God and pulling them away from reason. The bible can be complicated if you make it so but he is happy with people doing that, because then they listen to his simple explaination. He focusses on the words and not the message. Enough about him. THere is no reward for exposing him but God will be happy if we get people away from there. Praying is the start. The battle is with the spirits, not the people. Please give me your e-mail. By the way, I am not a stand up citizen and have my faults and I don’t try to hide them, so if anyone wants to point fingers, go ahead, I know I am human. I love my God, He is bigger than we can ever explain or immagine, I love my neighbour as much as I love myself(well I try very hard). I had a dream years ago where Jesus came to earth on a big white horse. He rode it straight THROUGH the moon when it got in the way and it broke up like dirt. That was awesome. He was not angry either :)

    Will talk again
    Use all the armour
    Andre

  • Hanelie

    Andre wrote:
    I do not want to attack anyone. I know oom At is wrong, he knows he is wrong (anyone with that much money from spreading the Gospel and knowing the Gospel knows he is wrong).

    Oh, you just touched on the very things that have been on my mind lately. 1. Those are the false teachers: the ones who know they are wrong. Sometimes, it is clear who they are. Sometimes not. Oh, and the money thing. I listened to the beginning of the Joyce Meyer audio clip yesterday – up to the point where the presenter spoke about her multi-million dollar ministry. Then my hair just rose. Have we forgotten how the early church operated?

    That is where the Devil is strong, in marketing because he just keeps hammering on what we see around us, on what we know.

    Oh yes. Words create reality – if you see/hear something often enough, you might just start believing it. There’s an Afrikaans word for it which is quite descriptive: “afstomping”. Not sure what it would be in English: numbing?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andre

    >> Here is no reward for exposing him but God will be happy if we get people away from there.

    You hit the nail on the head there Andre. I take no joy in exposing false teachers, but I take tremendous joy when people are set free from doctrines that have kept them captive because of the work God has called me to do. I do not hate or even dislike anyone, but I do immensely hate the words that come out of these peoples mouths that lead people straight to hell. These are soul matters, people’s lives hang in the balance, and this is why I will continue to fight the good fight (against principalities of evil) because 1) I love Jesus Christ more than anything and 2) I love my neighbour as much as I love myself (well I also try very hard lol), therefor I preach the gospel that SAVES to them.

  • Andre

    AMEN AMEN AMEN Let it be just so. Hope that your blessings are multiplied.

  • Andre

    Reply to Hanelie

    Yes Afstomping is reg. But in general and this age I think people want to be fed where it comes to the bible too, so in stead of reading the bible they prefer SOMEONE read it too them and that the same SOMEONE should explain it. We need to pray more too. Many people pray out of earthly need and some out of want but we need to pray for insight, for ourselves and the members of those churches. If He is for us, who can be against us?

    Use all the armour

  • Hanelie

    Andre wrote:

    But in general and this age I think people want to be fed where it comes to the bible too, so in stead of reading the bible they prefer SOMEONE read it too them and that the same SOMEONE should explain it.

    Oh, absolutely. I was there too. I am only now, day by day, realising how many lies I accepted as “truth” (and how that had impacted my growth and walk with Christ) because I delegated my responsibility for Christian growth to others.

  • Andre

    Hi Deborah (can I call you Debs too, much shorter. I will go by And if you want)

    You know I just deleted a long discription of what I saw in CRC today. It made me sound like someone who finds fault with everything. All I know is that receiving the Holy Spirit is a tremendous turning point in your life and it is joyous and filled with emotions hard to keep in. At the very least the most composed person will have a very big smile on his face. You just received the HOLY SPIRIT. People got called forward today to have the Holy Spirit prayed to them, they fainted in a peculiar way, got laid down gently, got covered with a blanket (so what, some may say) but then they stood up groggy and returned to their seats less … , well just less than the way they walked to the front. No joy. Plus everyone else went on with bussiness as usual, asif the Holy Spirit is received so many times that it is less notable than the coffee served after the sermon (and there was no coffee!)

    Ag nee man mense. You are more excited when telling people about how many people received the Holy Spirit than actually receiving Him.

    This is my personal opinion which I write by choice. I do not aim to offend or to tempt. If it works for the folks in CRC then it works for them but don’t let the numbers of the place fool you. For those people who found God in CRC, don’t think I am saying it is not possible because it is written that where two or more are gathered in His name, there He is also. All the evil and the lies and bad guys in the world will last only milli seconds against the Almighty God. So please be careful that you honor and exalt GOD and not CRC. Your choice.

    Talking to my friends tomorrow.

  • Andre

    By the way (to anyone who thinks I am nuts)

    I hate accusing people and get no joy from it, so take your own time and just read about the unholy spirit, Kundalini or something like that. it is on this blog somewhere.

    Here is it: The Biblical Holy Spirit vs.The False Unholy Spirit of Fire

  • Mariana

    i just came across this site and was intrigued when i saw crc’s name.

    i was a member and leader in crc for 10 years.i was still an innocent student in bloemfontein and didnt really know better.as i grew up and grew closer to God,i started to dissagree more with the vision At has for the church.one night i was sitting in one of the leaders meetings and at was talking about money..and he asked,do we all know where all of our tithes go to..and his answer was as he was pointing to the newly builed stage..our tithes went into building a new stage for the church so that it would look good on tv.i was feeling both mad and upset..because i tithe to build into the Kingdom of God and NOT to build a new stage!!!there were a few nights i couldnt sleep and i thought i was under satans attack!i felt like i was being wrong not agreeing with the vision..meanwhile it was the Holy Spirit opening my eyes and He was busy pulling me away from the deceiption.there was also an incedant where i needed some spiritual guidance.i was under spiritual attack and i just wanted someone to pray with me.so i made an appointment with uncle sid,at’s dad in law.it was an hour appointment and for 5 minutes we talked about what i was experiencing and for the rest of the hour he told me to loose more weight because i am one of the pretties woman in church but i am just carring arroud too much weight.for crc are all about woman must look like a supermodel.

    well,i thank God that He opened my heart and eyes to the truth.

    I always had a passion for america and i always knew i wanted to go to america.since i was a teenager i told my friends that i am going to marry to an american man.and after being single and waiting on God for 7 years i met my american husband,and am now living in california.

    we are part of a calvary chapel church.and i have read some stuff about chuck smith on this site.but i must say,i have learned more about Jesus and His grace in this 9 months ive been here now than what i have ever learned in crc..oh and i was a leader at doxa deo also for 3 years.

    for the first time i am learning the Word and not some crap a pastor teaches to please his congregation.

    our calvary chapel pastor said the other day,as long as he is the shephard of this church,Jesus will be the centre and focus point.no weird teaching will be taught,no weird books or strange things like laughing in the spirit and falling over.

    it feels like i finally found what i was looking for spiritually my whole life!i learn..i get taught so that i can teach..as the bible says,freely you recieve and freely you give.

    as far as crc and doxa deo are concerned..i just let them be.i still have alot of hurt,but i needed to forgive so that i can be free.

    i think about that passage in the bible where the disciples went to Jesus saying oh look at those people casting demons out in Jesus’s Name but they werent really for Jesus the just used His Name for their own gain. and Jesus just said..let them be.

    you know,He knows everything.and for us who know Him and the truth..let us freely give what we have recieved!i thank God that we all have been set free from the deceiption. God has bigger and better plans for us!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mariana

    Thank you for your story.

    I just have one question for you. You as a born again child of God have the Holy Spirit abiding in you, and the Bible says of the Holy Spirit..

    John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

    Why are you solely relying on another man, this pastor, (who says he is preaching the truth, when is could very well be not – just saying) when you could be opening your bible at home, and reading the bible, studying the bible with the best teacher EVER – the Holy Spirit given to you by God?

    The bible says 2Tim 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

    If you are being led astray by men’s teachings, it’s because you like being spoon fed by the pastor instead of rightly dividing the Word of God yourself with the guidance of the Holy Spirit – that is what He is there for.

    Do you take the pastors sermon and go and check/study the bible to see if what he preached is actually the truth? – and this can only be done if you have an intimate knowledge of God’s Word to start of with. Otherwise you will be back to square one, lapping up everything the pastor says because well he said he is OK, so therefore you must believe him. Just because people are not falling over and laughing in his church, does not necessarily mean he is preaching the truth and nothing but the truth.

    Think about it, what is really lacking in your life Mariana? The Holy Spirit is awakening you, He wants you to spend time with Him studying God’s Word learning the fundamental truths of God’s Words so that when you see false teaching being spoken you can spot it quickly.

  • Hanelie

    ^^To Deborah: Amen. God keeps reminding me of that, and it is the desire of my heart to know His Word intimately. Also to know Him intimately. But, am I the only one sometimes finding the Bible really difficult to understand? Some days it just breaks open. Some days not. I wish I understood more of the things I read here (language, context etc.). I read recently that text without context is pretext (for someone else’s pet doctrine). Don’t I know that: I feel as if I was brought up on a doctrine of single verses. Sometimes it helps if someone can fill in some of those blanks. And, then there’s the issue of different translations. I read Luke 9:55-56 in about 7 different translations last night, because it differed so much from one to the other. Who to trust? As I said earlier: the Lord keeps reminding me that I can only trust the Holy Spirit in me.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hanelie

    >> But, am I the only one sometimes finding the Bible really difficult to understand? Some days it just breaks open. Some days not.

    You are not the only one, and this is why we have genuinely great men of God who have gone before us who have figured out all the hard parts for us lil’ peeps. When I get stuck I refer to these great men of God, to help fill in the blanks but there too I don’t just jump in and trust, I listen for the Holy Spirit’s agreement or disagreement on things.

    I will email you quick.

  • Hanelie

    Thank you, Deborah! You know where we were in the Bible this morning (reading through the Gospels): Luke 16. One of those amazing times when things just fell open, as if the Lord was saying to me that I can trust Him (Of course, I can). I almost gasped when I came to verses 27-31 (the conversation between the rich man and Abraham):

    Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

  • Chris

    Hanelie – thank you so much for your candid input regarding CRC. Very few people will stand up for the truth to testify that the Lord has set them free from this cult.

    Do not be discouraged when you sometimes do not seem to grasp the in depth meaning of parts of the Scripture – the Lord gives us only a certain amount of manna daily.

    You will also experience difficulties in getting rid of certain Scriptural perceptions – perceptions which formed as result of your longer term involvement with the demonic contortion of doctrine in CRC. Doxa Deo in many of its doctrine does not really differ from CRC.

    There are perceptions that people seem to receive the Holy Spirit in places where another doctrine is preached – well I doubt this because we are saved, born again, by the WORD 1Pet.1:23, 1Tim4:16, 2Tim.3:15 and many more verses.

    So do we receive the Holy Spirit – through the ministering of the faith. (The Afrikaans is clearer; Dit alleen wil ek van julle weet: het julle die Gees ontvang uit die werke van die wet of uit die prediking van die geloof? – see Gal3:2 for this truth.

    Then the LORD gives the Holy Spirit to those who are obedient Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    People seem to think where people fall over backwards in CRC they are saved – where is that in the Bible? Everyone who had a divine encounter fell on their faces in worship and adoration – those falling backward was under God’s judgment!

    This poses a serious question; if it is through ministering of the faith and obedience that people receive the Holy Ghost – what spirit are those receiving who fall backwards under a ministry of false doctrine by disobedient preachers??

    I have heard plenty similar testimonies of leaders who were in CRC who eventually came out and realised how little they actually knew regarding the Scriptures – hence current leadres having no fervour to a debate doctrine.

    A word of encouragement Haneli – stay in the pure unadulterated Word of the LORD and He will with time reveal more and more to you. Remember those who have will receive more and those who do not have even that which they have will be taken away.

    If you continue in His Word His truth will set you free.

  • Osito

    Bible: Malachi 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me. But you say, how have we robbed You? In tithes and offerings.”

    Crc: 3:8 “Will a man rob At? Yet you have robbed At. But you say, how have we robbed At? In tithes and offerings.”

    My appologies but this is how it looks to me. If you choose a career as a pastor for God, you choose a career were you are happy to earn a
    average salary. Being a pastor is a career to get so rich it bring confusen like I allready seen happend in crc. It opens the door for anti-christ
    to choose this tipe of career for the money, i mean any one who does not beleave there is any god wil easily preach the word of God for that
    tipe of salery.

    You see i think we choose to look for the rich and famouse, because maby that is were our harts is, instead to look for what the Bible
    say is the best. 2 Corinthians 2:17 “For we are not like many, adulterating the word of God for profit,but as out of sincerity, but as out of
    God, before God we speak in Christ.”

    See on passover i was in crc and even then when i thought it is time to praise God for His love for us givin his Son, they used the oppertunity to focus on
    tithing and pleging money for crc.

    The best for me was when i walk in there and the big poster saying “The future is in our hands” thought the future was was in God’s hands, but maby
    thats just me!

    I ask the leaders questions and for every question i ask it took them about 4-5 mounths to answer back if they do, then i told them, they just dont care
    or dont have an answer or dont want us to know the truth. Now they tell me i must not ask the church for answers i must pray and ask God.

    For example they say you can pray untill you turn blue, if you want finacial blessings you must tithe but if you tithe you must not expect any thing back,
    this is very confusing to me.

    Then i told them but you tell me to test God for they uses the scripture:( Malachi 3:10 “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse,
    that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty,
    “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.”

    So i ask them how do i test God if i dont expect any thing back?
    There answer: “the word test must actually be trust.”
    I dont know but it sound foolish for me to change the Word of God to fit your teaching.

    I wanted to know the truth, but didnt receive any reasonable answers regarding tithing back from there leaders, for they tell me now i m
    under attack and must ask God for answers and they will pray for me.
    They all have deserted me after they told me from the start that they were responsible for my sole.

    Any person out there from crc that can give advise, thats how i got to this block because i was looking for the answers myself.

  • Chris

    Osito.

    If you are from Bloemfontein you are welcome to meet with me so as to show you how foolish CRC and it’s pastor’s teachings are.

    For now search in this website under Tithing and you will find all the answers. It is a long document but explains everything!

    Should you have more questions after reading through the document please feel free to correspond with me.

  • Osito

    Hi Chris,

    unfortunatly i stay in Pretoria, it would have been nice to speak to you. l m glad to see that there are still people that are willing to listen because every time i speak to one of the leaders here, they just dont answer me or when i corner them they tell me i am deceived by the devil. I just would like it if they all have a debate on this isues here to reveal the truth, because someone must be wrong or maybe both sides are wrong. It just makes me wonder about the side that does nt wants to debate on these subjects, dont they care about the other people or are they hiding something from there own, “something” that they are afraid might come out? “THE TRUTH”

  • Chris

    Hallo Osito.

    Both sides are not wrong only one side and that is CRC and it’s pastors, otherwise the Bible and recorded history is also wron which is impossible.

    The pastors in CRC will alwatys attack the person instead of debating fact. They realise that they are unable to counter fact and truth hence the easiest way out through personal attack and badmouthing people by condemnation.

    They are hiding many things – for example tithing claimed from people to make themselves rich and in very many cases to the expense of poor people.

    That is why so many wise are leaving CRC – truth alwas sets one free.

  • Osito

    Hallo Chris,

    I have read the tithing part and thought i m going to try and prove you wrong, at this point i have no idea were to start. All your facts seems prety good to me. Yesterday i was thinking that if you can speak negativity on someone, isnt it then possible if you are in a church that tells you every sonday that if you dont tithe you are cursed that they speak a curse on to you, if you dont tithe in that church?

  • Osito

    Let s see, CRC tells you that if you dont tithe to crc you or your children or your money or whatever are cursed!
    CRC uses Malachi 3:8-9.

    Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf; because it is written, Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree.”

    God has died for us so we can not be cursed, if we have faith in Him.
    So are you under a curse if you dont tithe?

    So how can you be cursed?

    Galatians 3:10 “For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed is everone who does not continue in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

    Now if you can be cursed, you are of the law not of faith.So if you tithe, not to be cursed, it will not keep you from being cursed if you dont keep the entire law. Thats going to be one tought one to keep.

    Galatians 3:12 “But the law is not of faith, yet, He who does them shall live becuase of them.”

    (Galatians 3:12) show us it s good to live according to the law, but does not say under the law, then you will be cursed.

    Now my qeustion is, CRC tells you you will be cursed if you dont tithe, are they a church without faith? Because faith and curse dont fit together. And then the best is, they put this all together in one receipe, “if someone is broke they are cursed, they cursed because they do not have faith, they dont have faith because they dont tithe.”

    Telling there people they must have faith but with faith they can still be cursed. mmmh? And then when they themself dont have the faith in God to provide money, telling there people lies! You are under a CURSE or give us your MONEY!

    Now if you need money for God purpose, thats not for your own luxury s,ask, dont scare people to give. I dont think God will prove that.Scare them!!!

  • Chris

    Osito, Good for you man! You hit the nail right on the head!

    It is good and pleasing to see people realise the truth.

    Blessings

  • Osito

    Thanks Chris for your reply and your concern. Blessings to all Gods children and that they will not just stand blind and go on there feeling like Isaac whent on his feeling.

    Gen 27:22 “And Jacob came near to Isaac his father. And he felt him and said, The voice is Jacob s voice, but the hands are Esau hands.”
    23 “And he did not recognize him, because his hands were hairy like his brother Esau s hands; so he blessed him.”

    People trust there feeling bypass Gods word, I hope people will start research and learn from the Bible.

    Eph 4:14″That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error,”

    And blessings to every one standing for the truth of God s word.

  • Anon

    I want to prove to someone that the doctrine should be perfect from scripture, please help?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Anon

    Well, prove away then..

  • Chris

    Anon. read through the New Testament. On this site there is a teaching on tithing – read that and compare it with the Bible.

  • tienerma

    Hallo daar,
    Hoop almal verstaan Afrikaans..So beland my 16 jarige dogter by CRC en verander in n ongelooflike gedetermineerde opregte Christen..baie positief..skielik begin agressie indien ek enige vrae vrae oor At en sy oortuigings (waarvan ek ten sterkste verskil) So kom ek op die blog af en praat met haar . Sy stem saam dat sy nie deur al die doen en lates van CRC (At) saamstem nie, maar wel voel sy het n pesoonlike doel en dit sa uit haar voorbeeld aan ander getuig..sy vra welwaarom almal wat op die blog skryf nie enigsins iets aan die situasie doen nie…? ?? wat antwoord ek…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    tiernerma

    You have come to the right place, and there are people here who can help you (that speak Afrikaans :)

    1) Firstly to your daughter, people are converted to “TRUE Christianity” through hearing the Word of God, not by being a good example to others. Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    2) Why are we not saying anything on the blog? Well this article that Chris de Wet wrote on CRC is a huge article showing how AT Boshoff twists the Word of God to suit his own needs. Chris and another guy Deon have repeatedly asked At Bochoff for a DEBATE and AT refuses. At will not debate because he does not know the bible and is afraid he will be made out to be the false teacher that he is.
    3) If you have any specific issues with At’s preaching, let us know what they are and I will do my best to write articles on the topics, if I have not already.

  • Chris De Wet

    Hallo Tiernerma. Indien jy in Blemfontein woonagtig is, is ek bereid om jou te ontmoet. Jy kan vir Deborah vra vir my besonderhede indien jy so voel – dan kan ons praat.

    Jesus groete

  • Osito

    Hi Chris,

    is there really a pyramid scheme for the building project at crc pretoria?

  • Chris

    Hi Osito,

    I am not aware of a pyramid sceme but will not be surprised if there are some. My current knowledge regarding the doctrine tought there is enough to obey the Bible, to stay away and have nothing to do with them

  • Wordwakker

    [deleted]

  • Dan Forgiven

    & here I was looking for a fast little 2seater German car when i found a SLK55AMG with registration number CRC000… and I thought it might have belonged to Mr Boshoff, so I googled it and it brought me here…

    Anyway, maybe while you guys are good at the whole website/SEA/forum/blog thing, why not create a blog for testimonies like dead raised blind see, deaf hear lame walk etc.

    Be extremely blessed
    Daniel

    [Edited by DTW: We have a page were people that have been raised fro the dead can come and tell us their story, but it appears they are all so terribly selfish and don’t want to give Jesus any praise, that no one has bothered to come forward]
    Please have a look at: Have You or a Loved One Been Raised From the Dead?
    Please read: Can Satan Heal?
    And MOST IMPORTANTLY: The Biblical Holy Spirit vs.The False Unholy Spirit of Fire

  • Micheline

    Chris (8 February, 2012 at 4:13 pm) said to Willem:

    “…..How many lives are we changing……… well you will have no idea as Jesus is the Saviour and only He knows by the seeds we have planted and others have given water too. God is the one who brings the increase not me, not you and most assuredly not At Boshoff….”

    Well, let me tell you dear William – DTW did not save me, nor did they change me –that ONLY Jesus did, BUT they DID lead me to go to Jesus, they DID help me to take that first step and you know what, they themselves didn’t even know about it.

    That is why I believe DTW are the ones doing the REAL work of God as they are not counting heads, they leave that up to God. They are ONLY giving it as it is, no frills and no bells, JUST THE TRUTH.

    What I love about DTW is that they expect NOTHING from you, apart from studying scripture as it is written. They don’t ask for money to maintain their wonderful website; they don’t ask you to pay before you can view the information; they don’t give you juice DIY titbits and then market their latest book; no “special offers” for “this Month ONLY”…..it is all for free with lotsa love and hours and hours of dedication.

    Today I am thankful to God for finding this website. They have answered some of my questions and certainly helped me to find my SAVIOUR.

    DTW, although I love all of you, ALL THE GLORY GOES TO JESUS, He is “da BOSS”.
    (from a previous poster…just loved that expression, great to use when speaking to youngsters)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Micheline

    I didn’t know, but I am so excited! You have made my day! :) YAY! And I praise my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for giving me the strength every day to come on this website and tell the truth no matter what and answer questions to the best of my ability as I am guided by the Holy Spirit in the hopes that people hear the Holy Spirit speaking to them and obey Him; that soft gentle whisper telling them the truth as they search the Word of God themselves. All the Glory goes to Jesus.

    And if ever I were to falter, do not follow me (like these other people do with their teachers/preachers etc), follow Jesus (the ONE who saved you and sealed you till the end). Sometimes I myself am a bit confused on certain issues and I will say so (but then I am diligently studying trying to figure out the answer – sometimes it takes me months of research to get to the bottom of things) so that I can in all honesty publish the truth and nothing but the truth.

  • Redeemed

    Micheline, what a wonderful testimony of the LORD’s grace and how He has used this site to minister to you. DTW is like an oasis in a desert of mindless drivel and lies and I too am grateful for it!

  • Truthful Conversation

    Well said Micheline! I am soooo happy for you. I too have gained so much knowledge from Debs and DTW. I only ‘belong’ to two websites where I read and comment, and I know that the Lord helped me to find both blogs.

    Believe me when I say that I would hassle both blog authors if I don’t agree with them on something they said, or I do not understand a particular subject.. I question everything and I do sometimes go to VISIT other discernment sites to contrast and compare.

    My trust is in the Lord, not DTW..but I praise God for Debs and John, and their work and faithfulness.

  • Micheline

    Redeemed, AMEN to that!!!

    Apart from reading DTW, I also read alot of what Prof. Johan Malan is producing. I met a wonderful lady in the beginning of the year at a birthday breakfast. Taking note of her enthusiasm for God was unavoidable and impossible to ignore…and yes, she made me feel jealous for what she has. (She translates some of Prof. Malans’ works into English). I’m so grateful to have met her, even if it was only for about 10 minutes.

    Isn’t it amazing how God let us meet the RIGHT people at the RIGHT time in our lives, people that can make a difference if we are listening. I must have been ready for the TRUTH because, Oh my, I’m so “hungry” for more.

  • Osito

    Hi everyone, can someone please help me?
    The people of crc keeps going back to Malachi 3:10 and tell me but God say we must tithe. Im not with crc any more but my wife love crc and At and she beleave that our 2 year old dauther must belong to crc.
    And i beleave it s the Holy Spirit that keeps warning me agains crc and they all think i deceive because they tell me the Holy Spirit let them to crc.
    And the way I see it At would not mind taking my little dauther pocket money.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Osito

    Please read: Tithing – Are you really robbing God if you don’t? It contains info regarding Malachi 3:10

  • nanu

    Hi Chris

    Will you kindly advise on the place of worship. honestly
    Speaking though been attending there for just over a decade, been critical of most of the teachings. Problem is that I’m still looking for a place of worship. Pls provide the address.

    Thanking you in anticipation

    Regards

  • Anonymous

    You are not allowed to attend a CRC dreamweek for free. You always have to buy a ticket. If you don’t buy a ticket you will not be allowed in.

    Since when do you have to buy a ticket to go to Church? Since when is the Church a cinema? I personally wrote to At in 2011 and told him that it is wrong to ask money and he ignored this as dreamweek 2012 asked money.

    So poor people will never be able to attend dreamweek. Some people cannot even afford to buy a bread! Shame on you Pastor!! You give my Country a bad name!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Anonymous

    Have you ever thought that going to this ‘Dreamweek’ is actually detrimental to one’s spiritual wellbeing and that not having a ticket is a blessing by God?

  • Osito

    Now watch this, I ask one of CRC s top leaders to tell me in 1 COR 13:8-13 when does tongues cease.

    1 Cor 13:”8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

    11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love”.

    The aswer I got after 4 days: when you run away from God the gifts cease.

    And that top leaders must lead people to the truth.
    What has run away to do with the “perfect” in verse 10?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Osito

    >> The aswer I got after 4 days: when you run away from God the gifts cease.

    Oh my word…. that is just… *silence*

  • Osito

    I just wonder, CRC uses robert morris teaching video s on tithing, then i believe that CRC agree with roberts teachings. Does CRC then uses the same principles of paying the people s money back after 1 year if they are not fully satisfied?

  • Osito

    We helped a person that is a member at CRC for about 2 mounths, gave him food and place to stay Because he has no income. I tried to help him get on his feet with his dream and to get help for him at CRC because he has a drug problem. The leaders told me that it is to expencive to help this person and that the church wont pay to help him.

    Then i send CRC a message that one of there members is getting lost and needs help or the church might loose a sole. I gave them the persons name. Ask them why they dont want to help this person with “LOST AT ANY COST” and ask CRC for reply. Gave them my e-mail and phone number.

    Never heard of CRC.

  • Pat Grey

    Hi to all,
    I started of by reading the article “At Boshoff from CRC Church shows us how Pharisees went about “Honoring” God” and then read all of the comments and answers that followed. I was intrigued. I am also currently a member of CRC, not Bloemfontein and am experiencing an increased sense of disquiet within me as time goes on. I really thought that there was something wrong with me. Thank you Chris, Deborah and others for persuing truth and not being afraid to tell it like it is.

    God bless you

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Pat

    Yes, we all think there is something wrong with us until we listen to the Holy Spirit telling us its not us, it’s them! I am glad you left. Finding a new church in SA is difficult I can tell you that much. There are some that seem OK but dig deeper and find that things are not ok, and then their claws come out too attack you.

  • Osito

    Hi Pat

    Welcome, you will see if you read the article s here and then go test it on the crc leaders, ask them question. I did, they got mad at me, lied to me, took mounths to get back at me(“they are very very busy”), told me i am demon posessed, never answer some questions, was not allowed to ask the questions in homesell for there was new people. One leader made time for me for +- 10-15 min then he had to go visit a friend, that was the last as well. I told them it is writen in the Bible and they told me i am the only one in the world that understand it like that, i m confused. They dont want to discuss things that does not fit CRC teachings in the Bible.

    Now test this article s as well, as the Bible say test every spirit, and feel free to ask questions. It s nice to have people carering to answer our questions.

    May God bless you in the truth and the Holy Spirit lead you.

  • Flower

    Hi Mo, I used to be in CRC in the UK and although I am grateful that God rescued me after 7 years of running from Him, I saw many young people hurt, manipulated and controlled. Grace is not part of what CRC preach. This cult is causing people to hate God or completely lose faith. We must all pray for eyes to be opened.

  • Truth

    Everything CRC stands for is wrong, I have a loved one that got pulled into this cult, I need help getting her out. It’s going to be the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. This cult is wrong I went to to the “church” were we sat in a tent and watched tv basically, and I feared for my life seeing people talking in tongues made my cry, they actually thought I got the Holy Spirit or some cr*p they believe in. I can’t let this go on and I want to put a stop to this load of nonsense.

    At, as jy hierdie boodskap lees ek wil net se jy is ‘n [edited by DTW: swear word removed] en jy gan Hell toe!!!!
    At, if you are reading this, this is my message to you I hope that you get what you deserve for doing this to so many people you are destroying lives.

  • Roro

    [delete – you call yourself a Christian but the words that come out your mouth are of an unbeliever]

  • Tiisetso

    Hi there, since you are an expert in exposing false prophets, I was kindly asking if you could go through my blog and read what I preach.

    I’m asking you to do so because I dont want to be one of the false prophets in this world, so I stand to be corrected at all times.

    And i’m just wondering, do you go to church? Or do you have your own church? Cause it seems as if everybody who preaches the gospel in your case is a false prophet.

    Please understand, I am young, a spiritual baby too, only got born again 13 months ago, and perhaps you might not take me seriously since you are so experienced.

    In any case, heres my website [Edited:website-removed]

    God bless you!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Tiisetso

    >> Cause it seems as if everybody who preaches the gospel in your case is a false prophet.

    I love it when people ask this question because it amazes me how little they think before they speak. Seriously? Do you know how many pastors there are in the world? Millions and Millions, I have spoken of a mere handfull. So no, EVERYBODY is not a false teacher.

    >> And i’m just wondering, do you go to church? Or do you have your own church?

    I do not have my own church, I belong to the church aka Bride of Jesus Christ, just like every other born again Christian does in the world. Do you not realise that the CHURCH is not a building but the Bride of Jesus? Inside a church building you can have a congregation of 1000 church goers all proclaiming to be Christian and only 100 are truly born again and belong to the church of Jesus that He built.

    I see you are caught in the CRC church, I don’t need to look at your blog to know that there will be a problem if your pastor is AT Boshoff and CRC is your church. You just have to read all the comments under this article to see that.

    I’ll take you very seriously if you take me very seriously and don’t insult me off the bat.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Tiisetso

    So I did as you asked and I went to look at your website, I see that you are not preaching the gospel of Jesus but instead incorporating biblical scripture into your stories that you write about your every day life. Your blog is like one big movie of who you are right down to some very intimate details that I don’t believe a Christian should be speaking about on the internet and then using scripture to back up your lasciviousness, is just totally wrong.

    I would recommend you study the bible and find out what the Word of God says and why scripture can’t just be used out of context the way you use it. I ask you nicely to please read the following:

    See chapters: 01 – Charge That To My Account
    See chapters: 02 – The Way To The City
    See chapters: 03 – Will a Loving God Permit Anyone to be Eternally Lost?
    See chapters: 04 – Dreams that Will Never Come True
    See chapters: 05 – The Chains of Sin
    See chapters: 06 – The Sinless One Made Sin
    See chapters: 07 Transgression Forgiven
    See chapters: 08 – The Greatest Text in the Bible
    See chapters: 09 – How to Become a Child of God
    See chapters: 10 – Anathema Maranatha
    See chapters: 11 – Inside the Veil and Outside the Camp
    See chapters: 12 – Peace by Christ Jesus

    You will find that the information presented in the above chapters are a far cry from what At Boshoff will ever preach. Please read them.

  • Sharon

    Deborah, I have no clue who or what CRC (Corrupt Roman Catholicism? :o)) But we have plenty of these False Prophets here in America. They teach little Bible (they twist) and love your check book. Do I tithe and give offerings at my church? Yes, of course. But my church doesn’t “make merchandise” of us.

    John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
    2Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

  • S

    Serious people, if you spend half the time helping other people instead of blogging you might change something in the world!! open your eyes, there are more serious problems in the world than this…grow up!!

    And the money thing…The “God loves you” to a kid on the street is good, but he is still going to sleep hungry!! So yes, money does answer things!! The bless me bless you is not going to get the job done!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    S

    >> Serious people, if you spend half the time helping other people

    Well thank you S, we are helping people, we help thousands of people all day long.

    As for the rest of your comment, we are going to help you now, we request that you read you start reading your bible, because clearly it’s something that you have not done yet.

    A Pastor that steals money though tithes by constantly begging and lording over the congregation, and then using some of it as a smoke screen by helping people is NOT Biblical.

  • CRC Member

    [deleted – you question my salvation? I delete your comments. The articles states CLEARLY what the problems are with CRC, I will not repeat them.]

  • CRC Member

    [delete]

  • CRC Member

    [deleted – I have a bad feeling about you too]

  • CRC Member

    [delete]

  • CRC Member

    Truth wrote:

    Everything CRC stands for is wrong, I have a loved one that got pulled into this cult, I need help getting her out. It’s going to be the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. This cult is wrong I went to to the “church” were we sat in a tent and watched tv basically, and I feared for my life seeing people talking in tongues made my cry, they actually thought I got the Holy Spirit or some cr*p they believe in. I can’t let this go on and I want to put a stop to this load of nonsense.

    At, as jy hierdie boodskap lees ek wil net se jy is ‘n [edited by DTW: swear word removed] en jy gan Hell toe!!!!
    At, if you are reading this, this is my message to you I hope that you get what you deserve for doing this to so many people you are destroying lives.

    Tonques are in the Bible, so I do not know what your problem is?
    Its an awesome gift to receive.

    You are welcome to take me on on this topic with bible scripture, but I know you will not, you are scared I show the truth and then expose your strange doctrine.

    CRC is an awesome Church with Godly Vision to win the lost, to spread the Gospel and to make disciples.

    What is wrong with that? Please dont refer me to your previous doctine as they are poorly structured and make no sense at all since you twist the words to suit your needs.

    Do you not think you will be better of to listen to the call of Jesus and spread the Gospel and make disciples.

    and {delete me once again}

    Blessings and love in Jesus

  • S

    Thank you for the reply Deborah.

    I’m sure everyone knows the bible and can throw scripture left and right as they like. I had a friend that was addicted to drugs, started dealing to feed his addiction. He lost his family and kids. Long story short, he is born again, reconnected with his kids, has a good friend relationship with his ex-wife again. This is the grace of God that made this possible. How can you now want to go say CRC is all about money and the Pastor stealing money? How do you put a price on a father reconnecting with his two kids again? What God bless’ cannot be cursed, if Pastors were stealing money the church would have closed its doors 10+ years ago already and that is clearly not happening. God is not fooled or mocked. Do yourself a favour and have a look at CRC Pakistan. Its one of the most dynamic churches ever, the people are on fire for God, turning their worlds upside down to win people over for Him.

    God plants you in a church, there is not a right and wrong church. We are all on the same mission, to expand the kingdom. Wherever you are planted, I pray that you make a big impact. Run your race, not looking and criticizing your neighbour.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CRC Member

    >> You are welcome to take me on on this topic with bible scripture, but I know you will not, you are scared I show the truth and then expose your strange doctrine.

    If you care to SEARCH this blog, which you are to lazy to do you will find all the answers to your questions, and if you READ the comments you will find that your answers have ALREADY been answered. I am tired of your insults and ‘dares’, hence I am deleting your comments.

    There is a Keywords / Categories section to our right in Alphabetical order, search for Tongues and find the article on Tongues with all the scripture to back up that tongues as CEASED.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    S

    >> I’m sure everyone knows the bible and can throw scripture left and right as they like.

    Thanks, I try my best, this is what the bible commands of us, I am sorry you don’t want too know scripture as well and insult those that do know scipture.

    >> I had a friend that was addicted to drugs, started dealing to feed his addiction. He lost his family and kids. Long story short, he is born again, reconnected with his kids, has a good friend relationship with his ex-wife again. This is the grace of God that made this possible. How can you now want to go say CRC is all about money and the Pastor stealing money? How do you put a price on a father reconnecting with his two kids again? What God bless’ cannot be cursed, if Pastors were stealing money the church would have closed its doors 10+ years ago already and that is clearly not happening. God is not fooled or mocked. Do yourself a favour and have a look at CRC Pakistan. Its one of the most dynamic churches ever, the people are on fire for God, turning their worlds upside down to win people over for Him.

    So what you are saying is that your friend went to a false religion (aka false christian gospel church) and was converted by a false spirit because that is what Satan does he comes to us as an angel of light 2 Corinthians 11:14 “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” and he was healed of his drugs, Satan can heal:
    and he gets this FIRE you speak about see here The Biblical Holy Spirit vs.The False Unholy Spirit of Fire.

    Do you see why it’s soooooo important to know your bible?

    >> God plants you in a church, there is not a right and wrong church. We are all on the same mission, to expand the kingdom. Wherever you are planted, I pray that you make a big impact. Run your race, not looking and criticizing your neighbour.

    You speak about expanding the kingdom, for who? Yes, a Future Kingdom, but Not a Kingdom Now We are in the last days, the anti-Christ is here, waiting to be exposed, the church as it stands is no longer a ‘christian church’ but a church for the anti-christ with an anti-christ FALSE ‘holy spirit’ that LEADS you to ANOTHER Jesus, NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

    I am making an impact, I am warning the small few that will listen that what is going on is not of God, but actually the Roman Catholic Church (a Pagan Babylonian religion) that has swept the world by storm, they come under disguise under the title Vatican II. So what you have is the Vatican and the Catholic church and then Vatican II and their Evangelization program with churches like CRC and TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) and every other church out there.

    You do not realise it but you are friend is following a Catholic doctrine and so are you and so is everyone else.

    Do you agree that Catholic doctrine is of God?

    Mystery Babylon
    Vatican Fulfulls Biblical Prophecy (Rev 13, 17 and 18) – The False Prophet

  • Thomas Lessing

    CRC Member wrote:

    Tonques are in the Bible, so I do not know what your problem is?
    Its an awesome gift to receive.

    Indeed, tongues are in the Bible. Many things are in the Bible. Adultery is there, murder is there, idolatry is also there and so we can go on and on.

    Some years ago a Zulu attended a church service in Kwa-Zulu Natal. For the very first time in his life he encountered something he had never seen and heard before. People were falling down backward; some were speaking in tongues; others were making strange noises like animals, and so on. At first he wanted to leave because what he heard from those who spoke in tongues distressed him. Nonetheless, he decided to stay and to speak to the preacher after the service.

    When they had finished their service, the young man went to the preacher and said: “Do you know what some of your church members said when they spoke in those tongues?” “No,” replied the preacher, “but we believe it must be of God because He is blessing us with so many wonderful things in our church. Alcoholics have been delivered from their addiction; marriages are healed; people are being born again; fornicators have abandoned their old lifestyle; our finances are strong and many more.”

    The young man continued, “I know the lingo they spoke very well. It is an old dialect I learnt from childhood and they blasphemed, cursed and defiled God’s holy Name and character in the most vile manner. I doubt whether that was from God. Would he empower and inspire someone to do that? I doubt it. It must be of the devil, wouldn’t you agree?”

    How can you say tongues is an awesome gift? The word “awesome” means “inspiring an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, or fear; causing or inducing awe: an awesome sight. Showing or characterized by reverence, admiration, or fear; exhibiting or marked by awe.” There is only one gift that fits this description – Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. I presume you speak in tongues but have you received Jesus yet? And if you have, would you mind telling us how you received Him?

  • S

    Thanks for the insight. I have never once read where Jesus bible bashed any unbeliever. All He did was give them love, love and more love. The only way you would win me over if you were doing it with love, not by criticizing or pointing out what I’m doing wrong. This is not biblical at all.

    Its great to know the bible by heart, it another thing to live it. The greatest command it to love your neighbour, that is clearly not happening over here!! Love people everyday and live beyond yourself, you will find yourself loving people even when you do not agree with what they believe in. This is how you can change your world.

  • Robbie

    In English please?

  • ANTON

    Hello , got some email some time ago … and now visited your site … I have dear friends in Jesus at this At Boshoffs church in Milnerton ..and i think they have also via the children been sucked into this funny affair ..have read many of the posts and i was scary and sad to see how people get hurt , how they only wake up much later … and was shocked to hear pretoria crc needs another 60 mil for the church .. this is nogal rof ..real american mega church bucks pressure …. bye almal ……. keep to your prayers and be still before the Lord …

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    S

    >> I have never once read where Jesus bible bashed any unbeliever

    Where are we bashing an unbeliever? You making stuff up as you go along I see.

    Do you know what love is? Let me explain it to you: LOVE is PREACHING THE GOSPEL :) That is right.

    The bible says.

    Mark 12:30-31 “30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.”

    Yes we love our neighbour, we love others, as Christians we do not kill, we do not hurt others, we help others, WE LOVE OUR NEIGHBOUR BY PREACHING THE GOSPEL TRUTH TO THEM – What GREATER love is that. Be sure, no unbeliever will be saved by the good works or pie in the sky love, the gospel must be presented – this is love. To bring someone to genuine salvation in Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus Christ did, he sat with sinners and they accepted Him as Lord and Saviour, those however who did not want to know Him, curse at Him and wanted to hurt Him.

    Now look what the bible says:

    2 John 1:6 “6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.”

    Look what Jesus says:

    John 15:10 “If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”

    S, if I don’t point out what you are doing wrong how on earth are you to know you are on the wrong path? The path is narrow and very few find it – did you know that? This is what the bible says, not me. I am trying to help you here, not condemn you.

    Matthew 7:13-14 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Now look at your first comment to me, you said the whole world is changing to follow this ‘Jesus’ yet look at what the bible says above? Very few people are going to find Him!

    So what is going on S, what exactly is going on in this world of ours that people are going crazy about? Yet the bible tells us the EXACT OPPOSITE will happen in the last days we are currently in (The days of Noah).

    Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    What were the Days of Noah like? It was so evil, soooo evil that God did not even blink an eye to destroy earth with a flood. And look at how many genuine Christians there were, only Noah and his family. This is what is happening again, right now…

    In the Bible history repeats it’s over and over.

    S. This blog is all about love, love for people. We preach the truth. You think we are being nasty, but we are not. The WORDS OF GOD are powerful and must be spoken, the bible says:

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    If you are searching your heart because of these words that are spoken to you, do not get upset, instead reason with them and learn instead.

    Right now, I believe the Holy Spirit is speaking to you, tugging at your heartstrings. You will hear the truth on this website, so stick around if you want :) It’s all your choice at the end of the day – you have free will.

    >> Its great to know the bible by heart, it another thing to live it.

    I do not know the bible off by heart, but I try my best to know what I know. And I know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour and I stand up for the gospel truth, no matter what or who thinks they can come and attack it and try change it into something that is falsified that leads people to hell.

  • Dan

    Hi Debs, that’s a beautiful reply. I hope S will stay and read some more. A few years ago I was searching and the Holy Spirit guided me to this site. A lot of things I didn’t (still don’t) understand, but I am saved today, by the grace of God – thanks to this site. Stay awhile S.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Dan

    Love you so much my dear brother!! :) There is so much I don’t understand as well, but I am eager to figure it out.

    I really pray S does stay and I really hope he does listen to that gentle whisper of the Holy Spirit drawing him to a place where he accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. What a wonderful day that will be, and the Angels in heaven will rejoice.

  • Desmond

    Dion Knoesen’s argument relating PS At Boshoff is fair, however lets ask ourselves is this effective? Allot of time was dedicated to a problem but our Almighty God is a God of solutions. I refuse to believe Jesus will thank us one day for complaining about a specific pastor spreading doubt and causing division. In fact, this is a characteristic of satan himself(demon meaning destroyer, they break down what God builds up).

    Whether this pastor is anointed by God or not, lets not mimic demons but mimic Jesus Christ who is LOVE.We could be spending time saving souls, encouraging people by sharing this great love that was given to us freely by our precious Jesus Christ as a result EXPANDING the the kingdom of God which pleases Him.Do not worry about irrelevant matter’s. The beautiful Holy Spirit is a big boy He can handle any situation as HE finishes ALL God’s work on earth.Jesus says reserve all judgement for me as for you “LOVE”.

    I’m truly sorry for all the families who have suffered and people who were hurt by this pastor but just like the world cannot give us joy so it shouldn’t rob us of our joy.We must remember he too is just a man and for better or worse a brother.Many come to salvation through crc(which is dependent on the individuals heart and not the pastors agenda). So lets chill the mighty Shepard is more than capable of looking after His own sheep! Is he not the most powerful force in all the universe? WOW praise Jesus!!!

    As for us, lets find it in our hearts to forgive him and move on to things of value.Loving others with the love we have received as sons and daughters of the Almighty God!building up not breaking down. I want you to meditate on this statement by John Wesley(mighty man of God) as i close “I value things only by the price they gain in eternity”… Are we furnishing our mansions in Heaven or are we sleeping on the floor for eternity? Be blessed and stay blessed in Jesus mighty name!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Desmon

    It would do you well to read this article: Love Covers All Transgressions

  • Desmond

    Thank you for the article Deborah your passion for God’s people excites me. I have taken it to heart!Coming from a mutual point of view in this debate it just seems logical that we as brothers should do some research on the author’s who feed us with information as this might tell another story. As the bible says “we will be known by our fruit we produce” so I urge readers to see what the author’s are doing for God’s kingdom because many can say but few are willing to do.

    God has ignited me with a passion for His kingdom much like you Deborah… Not to drift off point, the reason i posted was because it hurts me to see so many brothers arguing about matters that take our focus off of Jesus Christ.For He is the way the truth and the life…forever amen

  • Desmond

    sisters as well…hahaha sorry ladies

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Desmond

    Thank you for reading the article :)

    It hurts me to see so much false teaching out there and people mocking and abusing Jesus Christ and trampling on His glourous and precious Name. It hurts me to see people being spoon fed false teaching and will ultimately damn then to hell where they will burn for eternity. Eternity means forever. It hurts me that people who call themselves Christians say they are Christians but yet do nothing about the state of the church that it’s currentlty in – The GREAT APOSTASY as prophecied in the Bible, but sit idly and allow satan to run rampant over your neighbour that they ‘proclaim’ to love.

    Do you know what love is Desmond? Love is preaching the unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ to people that they may be snatched from the fires of hell in to Jesus’s mighty hands. This is love. Love is fighting for the truth at all costs. Love is standing up for Jesus Christ no matter what. Love is making sure the church opens their eyes to the wolves that are trying to rip their hearts right out of their sockets. This is love Desmond.

    Please read the following articles if you will :
    Yes, a Future Kingdom, but Not a Kingdom Now
    The Biblical Holy Spirit vs.The False Unholy Spirit of Fire

  • Phil

    I was away from the website for a few months and it is interesting to read some of the “new” comments on the same old stuff. We must stop referring to At Boshoff as a Christian, he is not! He is misleading thousands!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Welcome back Phil, at least someone understands! There are so few.

  • Boet

    I still can not see how people still fall for this crowd. You should see the absolute stuff up of the way people are treated here at CRC Perth that is under At Boshoff. Francis Webster thinks he is untouchable too. Telling people to go before hearing what they have to say. If you not going to be his little puppet on a string you must find somewhere else to go. his true colours come out every single time someone confronts him with the Truth.

    Big drive for money so he can sit on his butt and not work. His puppets are hysterical too it is not what the bible says it’s more like what Francis says. (Joke) He can not even keep his own marriage together but the way he talks and be little’s people he has to get real. People who know the Truth are leaving fast. No body is sin free or perfect but you can be a Christian about the way you live and treat people.

    Real Christian leaders should act like loving and caring Christians. May God really show the people the Truth soon enough.

  • Confused

    “A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose. – See more at: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/12/16/at-boshoff-from-crc-church-shows-us-how-pharisees-went-about-honoring-god/#sthash.CZhTZnR1.dpuf

    Please give scripture that state just that.

    Thanks

    C

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Confused

    I don’t think that the person who wrote the article should have used the words ‘mammon’ instead they should have said money. I never noticed that until now.

    2 Corinthians 9:7 “Every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver.”

    Romans 12:8 ” Or he that exhorts, on exhortation: he that gives, let him do it with simplicity; he that rules, with diligence; he that shows mercy, with cheerfulness.”

    Matthew 6:1-3
    1 “Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven.
    2 Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward.
    3 But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

  • Gerhard

    Thank you Deborah for the effort and dedication you have put into this site – also glad to see that you reconciled with Malan.
    I am trying to put faces to names commenting and contributing specifically on the CRC issues mentioned here, since I spent many years there – as videographer and photographer (not staff).Club Riot might ring a bell with some of you (96 -98).
    I did the whole bibleschool thing, evangelised like crazy and went everywhere on my black chopper motorbike.
    I eventually married one of the worship leaders (Pst At married us), did the 5 days a week thing (while running my own business), got the prophesies, word, vision, homework and more etc etc.
    There were a genuine love for God and great fellowship amongst everyone I got to know – Pst Gary Brydon outreaches on Hoffmann Square, and a lot of realworld change which has faded my memory by now.
    Then things changed.
    I cannot recall specific times, but do remember a feverishness rising up with building projects making way for feeding schemes, visions and donations destined for rehabilitation centres, youth centres etc were abolished (which I had a vision for, designed and spent my last bit of living energy trying to materialise) – all for a greater vision – which suddenly were exclusive, as to opposed to a unifying inclusive love for the lost and the body of Christ.
    More things changed……and before you knew it – the first (true) love had disappeared.
    The vision board (mend the nets) did not seem to be lived by.
    I got lost again.
    And I am SO GLAD I did.
    Taking responsibility fot your relationship with Christ is not always easy – it means seeing things for what they are – and yourself for who you are.
    Pride, narcissism, the love of money (that apparently answers all things – haha!!) are vices not so easily recognised (but easily duplicated) and can be hidden in acts of councelling, works, prosperity (for the Lord’s work of course :-) )
    Thank God for hardships, one on ones in the mirror and broken hearts – it shakes us from ugly things and into a real relationship with Him – one of love and not desperation expecting Him to be our Genie in a bottle doing what we say (confessions and all that nonsense)
    There was a time when things were real, and humble people were doing what Jesus would do.
    It makes me sad to realise the damage done is in disregard of the truth.
    The TRUTH heals – I hope it is not too late for the CRC franchise – and many of their leaders that were once dear to me.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Gerhard

    >> I hope it is not too late for the CRC franchise

    An entire franchise can never be of God. Today, those who are true are leaving because God is calling them OUT of false churches

    The CRC church’s foundations are not based on the Word of God but based on Satan’s foundations hence it started off on what you thought was Godly, but dwindled into something awful – what we have today.

  • Gerhard

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Gerhard

    >> I hope it is not too late for the CRC franchise

    An entire franchise can never be of God. Today, those who are true are leaving because God is calling them OUT of false churches

    The CRC church’s foundations are not based on the Word of God but based on Satan’s foundations hence it started off on what you thought was Godly, but dwindled into something awful – what we have today.

    Hi Deborah,
    I agree with your sentiment regarding the false foundations.
    It became apparent to me that not all was well, when I saw mini- me’s been made, who had competetive spirits gunning for significance and personal gain – been taken up into leadership.
    Sure the cell-based system flourished – and drew more of similarly thinking people, also the youth grew, being fed a new approach that signified dynamism and boldness. Something that were new to the South African culture at the time.It was refreshing and brought to life many people from atheist / calvinistic / agnostic backgrounds to start contemplating a loving real God, and a Jesus that wishes a personal relationship with mankind.
    It is unfortunately there where Satan is best at working deception – neartruths that looks like the real thing – and it is an effective catchnet for the new at Christianity eager to learn person.
    Growth fortunately requires hard work, dedication and asking the right questions – which is why members from these type of churhes simply do not grow as the bondage becomes evident.
    Jesus said His joke is light!
    A new culture of deception based calvinism has been created – by multitudes not taking responsibility for their own spiritual growth, and relying on an arrogant method program to fulfill their never to be fullfilled long awaited “breaktrough”.
    This instills a false perception of Jesus coming for an already established prosperous church – Totally unscriptual!It only encourages works – and like you pointed out: a new vow to Satan.
    These type of platforms are the breeding ground for (unsuspecting)followers of the new world order Antichrist.
    I fully agree that by exposing false teaching is not a sign of hatred or vindictiveness or bitterness or whatever such people are attributed to have – in fact is is exactly the opposite – only a true love for the truth and those wishing to be affected and set free is at stake here – and that includes all leadership under such strongholds.
    Deborah – Would you please explain your thinking on “An entire franchise can never be of God”?
    I did use the franchise word originally as a bit of a wry derogatory comment ….

    Regards

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Gerhard

    >> Deborah – Would you please explain your thinking on “An entire franchise can never be of God”?
    I did use the franchise word originally as a bit of a wry derogatory comment ….

    Ohhhhhhh sorry I misunderstood you there – me bad ;) I’m not having a good day today, I think I am going to call it quits for today… try again tomorrow :)

  • Osito

    It s simple, i ask some leaders of CRC a question and it took them +- 3 to 4 mounths to came back with some kind of answer. Then the people told me that i ask the wrong people because the leaders doesnt have the ability to answer that tipe of questions. So i whent and ask a CRC pastor this qeustion: Please explain to me verse 18 of(mark 16:16-18).”16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
    At Boshoff use verse 16-17 as prove that every saved christian wil speak in tongue. At Boshoff left out verse 18 as prove on his quoted.
    It s been 3 days, still no reply on that question from one of CRC s pastors.

  • A brother in Christ

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Hi Pat

    Yes, we all think there is something wrong with us until we listen to the Holy Spirit telling us its not us, it’s them! I am glad you left. Finding a new church in SA is difficult I can tell you that much. There are some that seem OK but dig deeper and find that things are not ok, and then their claws come out too attack you.

  • A brother in Christ

    Hi Deborah

    I have read most of the above article about CRC and have the following thoughts about it all:

    While I agree that we need to righteously judge as was stated earlier in the article, I also feel that we cannot solely rely on other peoples opinions to discern biblical teaching (be it from whichever church group or pastor) for us, BUT in fact we need to test the teachings according to the Word of God, and in prayer, relying on the Holy Spirit to council us and guide us. The moment we solely follow and rely on one person’s opinion about the true doctrine of the Word of God, we fall in the same trap as THAT which is warned about in the article above. So I am not saying what DTW is wrong or right, but purely: “take what DTW is saying, take what CRC is teaching, pray about it, and allow the ONLY TRUE AUTHORITY ON THOS WHOLE SUBJECT – The Holy Spirit, to guide you as an individual reading this. I leave the following scripture with you the reader to meditate on:

    “But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: “ As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way. I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.” (Romans 14:10-23 NKJV)

  • To A brother in Christ.

    Romans 14:10-23 does not say Christians should never judge (discern, evaluate) between right and wrong. In fact, Paul who wrote the book of Romans also said:

    But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him]. (1 Corinthians 21:15)

    In Romans 14 Paul does not deal with judgment in terms of discerning or evaluating doctrine but with food and certain days. Some Christians have no qualms with eating all things, including meat, whilst others are vegetarians for fear of the meat having been offered to idols. Similarly some keep certain days whilst others don’t. The judgment in this case relates to a looking down or despising your brother or sister who do not eat certain foods and keeps certain days.

    Discernment or evaluating doctrine in the light of Scripture is another kettle of fish. In fact, if we do not discern according to God’s will we are being downright disobedient because many passages in Scripture exhort us to discern and evaluate doctrine. Why? Because of the following reasons:

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2 Jn 1:9)

    Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (Jas 5:19-20)

  • A brother in Christ

    Hi Thomas. Accepted. Thanks for your explanation. I still say that we are to go and experience for ourselves what these men of God are teaching, and comparing it to scripture, while allowing the Holy Spirit to speak into our hearts and lead us as to whether we should sit under any man of God’s teaching or not. Not allowing us to be swept away and influenced by emotions and feeling of other people in making a decision for or against any particular congregation or pastor. You are correct in what you are saying about discernment and the scripturs quoted. We are actually agreeing on the matter.

  • A brother in Christ wrote:

    Hi Thomas. Accepted. Thanks for your explanation. I still say that we are to go and experience for ourselves what these men of God are teaching, and comparing it to scripture, while allowing the Holy Spirit to speak into our hearts and lead us as to whether we should sit under any man of God’s teaching or not. Not allowing us to be swept away and influenced by emotions and feeling of other people in making a decision for or against any particular congregation or pastor. You are correct in what you are saying about discernment and the scripturs quoted. We are actually agreeing on the matter.

    What you said above is very dangerous. Today’s religion/spirituality is to a very large extent based on experience and not faith (Hebrews 10:38). Experience is something that our flesh (carnal nature) just loves to pursue. People want to experience health, wealth and prosperity. They want to experience phenomena like slain in the spirit and speaking in tongues. Listen to this:

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.(2Ti 4:3-4)

    Experiencing something like, for in stance, slain in the Spirit, cannot tell you whether it is right or wrong. Why? Because experience has to do with what your heart tells you. What does the Bible say about your heart?

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jer 17:9)

    If We don’t know our own hearts, how are we going to discern whether something is right or wrong. Oh, OK, we must allow the Holy Spirit to speak into our hearts. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will only tell us things He has heard form Him. It means that the Holy Spirit will never say anything that is contrary to the Word of God because He speaks through the Word. Therefore, we are to study the Bible and learn to rightly divide the Word of God through the leading of the Spirit and not experience. Experience is going to lead you up the garden path smack bang into deception.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    A b in C

    >> I still say that we are to go and experience for ourselves what these men of God are teaching, and comparing it to scripture,

    Well run along then, seriously go experience this man for yourself, (apparently the words he speaks don’t count, you need to experience him) go experience this man out for yourself then come back here and tell me I am wrong.

  • truthseeker

    Hi there. Could you put me in contact with some former members of CRC? I feel like I need to compare some notes. Thanks very much in advance.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    truthseeker

    Can you do me a favour? Can you scan through all the comments under this article and pin point all the ex-CRC members for me and place their names in a comment. I will them look up their email addresses and contact them and give them your email address and ask them to kindly contact you. I know there are a lot of comments sorry!

  • truthseeker

    Hi Deborah,I would like to chat to Chris and Mariana, if possible. Thanks again.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    truthseeker

    I emailed Mariana for you and gave her your email address. Let’s hope she replies. I unfortunately can’t give you Chris’ contact details.

  • truthseeker

    100% Deborah, appreciated.

  • Pastor's Wife

    I stumbled upon this website and was saddened by the posts that have been made here. Jesus was all about love and He reminded us to love our neigbours and pray for our enemies. My greatest breakthroughs have occurred when I have prayed for someone that I disagree with. Ephesians 4:1-3 “Therefore I, a prisoner for serving the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of your calling, for you have been called by God. Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowances for each other’s faults because of your love. Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.”

  • Pastor’s Wife wrote

    I stumbled upon this website and was saddened by the posts that have been made here. Jesus was all about love and He reminded us to love our neigbours and pray for our enemies. My greatest breakthroughs have occurred when I have prayed for someone that I disagree with. Ephesians 4:1-3 “Therefore I, a prisoner for serving the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of your calling, for you have been called by God. Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowances for each other’s faults because of your love. Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.”

    There is a big difference between “faults” and falling into doctrinal error.

    Don’t you know that you are going to be held accountable for others who have fallen into doctrinal error whom you could have warned but didn’t?

    Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand. So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. (Eze 33:1-7)

    You may not be a watchman of Israel but you are one of your own household. Would’nt you warn you kids when thay go astray and have all kinds of wrong friends who encourage them to take drugs and indulge in all kinds of sexual activities. You won’t? Then you don;t love them. To fall into wrong doctrine is worse than sexual sin. It is spiritual adultery.

  • Ronald

    Chris wrote:

    Hi there,

    Was under the rule of At himself, the headquarters for this wicked sect, in Bloemfontein South Africa. Thankfully God showed me the Truth, His Truth, through human instruments. This for me is very well and good, but what of the billions being misled, in the name of our Messiah? It is for them that I feel sorrow, even though it is their responsibility to seek the Truth of the Word it sickens me that men such as the likes above mentioned roam free like a lion to deceive like a serpent whilst wearing sheep’s wool… Maybe he teaches this at his mighty men conferences? To be like a lion? yes he does.

    However it is not only him or his sect that deceives, the charismatics, catholics, Calvinists and all the other sects share the same principles. I will paste an article I wrote to shed light on this, they are all side of the same coin …

    The article as follows :

    This article is built on fact and fact alone, not my own opinions on a situation. If at any time you need confirmation on any of the information I have given below, all you need to do is request it and I will be happy to give you meaty and lengthy evidence.

    Definitions of terms:

    Dominionism – The teaching of the doctrine that states that Israel has now replaced the church, because natural Israel has been cut off from God. This is also know as Replacement Theology. The result of this teaching means that all promises made to Abraham are now promised to the Church. Another outcome is that for Jesus to return, all the lives on earth need to be saved ( A great Revival ). This sect believes that a special group of people will take over the world, because we are the living in the millennium spoken about in revelation, that Jesus is ruling the planet as we speak. This dominion is obtained by finding high rankings in the media, economy, political agenda and so forth. (5 fold ministry)

    Amillennialism – In Latin when the ‘a’ is applied before the word it means “no”, so this then means no millennium. Again, this sect believes that the millennium is not literal and that Jesus is ruling the earth right now from Heaven as He sits next to God’s right hand. All that is necessary for Jesus to return is that a great revival occurs that everyone may live of the principles of the Bible.Catholics as well as the reformed as well as the dominionist each share appraisals in these theologies.

    Calvinist – Believe in the predestined choice God made of who He would send to Heaven, good boy list bad boy list, believe in the elect (selected of God), hearers and the sinners. They use the acronym TULIP as a reference for what they believe see : (http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/10/13/unconditional-election-and-total-depravity-are-gnostic-teachings/ )

    The denominations of the large religious groups of the world at state :

    The Charismatic movement(namely the happy chappies) – The foundation of this group is set on emotional splendor, good music, good visuals and basically the “love of God” in everyones lives, about what God can do for you in your life. It is safe to say that the majority of these churches thrive on sensationalism (sign and wonders), with apparent pastors performing “miracles”, calling on the Holy Spirit and transferring in to his/her congregation which goes against scripture. (Ex. 30:32-33) This can also be called what they cal transferal of the anointing. Bible warns against signs and wonders (2Th 2:9) ( The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.)

    There is no doubt that these groups teach a doctrine of prosperity and what God can do for you emotionally and especially financially, with teachers like Creflo dollar, At boshoff, Rod Parsley and many more that teach you should receive prosperity from God financially or else you do not have Faith and do not walk and talk like a true Christian. This is only obtained and God only really has favor on your life if you give them the money in faith, this is complete and utter hogwash. In fact the Bible speaks about how possessions do not make a man.(1 Timoty 6:10) (Luke 12:14-16) (Luke 14:33)

    Similarity :

    To get back to the topic at hand, these smooth talkers also believe that there is going to be a great revival and that we need to get ready for this, as the world will be saved. “Pastors” speak it over the congregation, world, country and often say how they for see a great revival for God. This is contradictory to what the Bible teaches, that in the end times there will be a great falling away. Now as important as it is to win souls, these heads are speaking directly against the Word of God.( 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;)(2 Thess. 2:3)

    To obtain this revival they use key Dominionistic principles, that there has to be a great revival for Jesus to return – there is going to be a great revival. Secondly that the promises to Abraham concerning protection and prosperity is to the Church not Israel, which is why they teach that God blesses u if you bless the church. Another similarity is the fact that these Charismatic movements use the media, economic, socio-economic and political grounds to obtain this revival. In example :

    Media – TBN is only 1 of several 24 hour broadcasting centers for this false doctrine. There are massive satellite organizations(churchs) all around the world that broadcast their contorted message etc…

    Economic – These very large charismatic movers rake in millions if not billions of Rands/Dollars each month with their telethons and monthly tithing gigs. Another great fund raiser is there products of holiness (dvd’s, holy clothes etc..) as well as the massive conferences they have, this should be free of charge as the bible instructs.(Matt. 10:7-10)(Luke 10:4-7) Their luxurious home, cars and lifestyle in general is proof that they do not give a large portion of this to the poor as they should. (Deut. 14: 22-26).

    Socio-Economic – With their message of apparent good news and even better living they head into the poor areas and attempt to help these people with food and the good message, how ever this is short lived as that food is only temporary just as the false Gospel they are teaching. This is merely a campaign to win the vote of these people nothing more nothing less. If they genuinely cared about these people they would sell their large houses and go into mission stations etc….(Luke 14:33)

    Political – “Pastors” with the likes of Rhema have let politicians such as Jacob Zuma speak to his congregation and has shown a general fellowship with the man. This is going back to feudalism where the state and church were once one. Speakers such Albert Mohler have sign the Manhattan Treaty, which is tired into the UN, which states all the principles of “unity through diversity” (one world order).

    Important to note – even though they won’t admit to it, it is clear that the Charismatic movement do not care enough for the instructions of the scripture that they have contorted it and even have members and heads of the congregation, that commit adultery and several other sins. HEAD OF THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT, contorting the scripture. They often put themselves on the same level as Jesus, ordering Him and His Holy Spirit around like waiters.

    Calvinism(Reformed church) – Believe that everyone has already been preordained to either go to heaven(elect) or to Hell(Sinners) and that all that is need for Jesus to return is that all the principles of the Bible are followed by everyone on the planet, whether it is the right doctrine or not. (see the link above). against scripture (Rom 8:7-8) That Christ only died for a certain group.against scripture (John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:19)

    They incorporate Amillennialism which again means that we are living in the millennium that Jesus is ruling from heaven, this means that all that all is needed is for people to follow principles of the Bible, even though these principles might be contorted and there is no urgency for these people to believe in Jesus for their gain into heaven.(as if these elect have been regenerated, they automatically go to heaven). This is why John Calvin enforced a very strict moral code onto his city, even though most of these decision where made by a council, that decide which is acceptable and which is not. He would burn people alive and execute them in several ways.against scripture (Matt. 15:9)

    This is why the Deutsch reformed and other reformed churches have councils who decide what goes and what does not. They have accepted homosexuality and along with it a mound of other sinful things according to the Bible. . This can be seen in methodist, Charismatic, Catholic and other sects of “Christianity”, whereby they contort the Word to suit their own vendettas. against scripture (Matt. 15:9). They follow what man says and not what God says.

    Dominionistic :

    Media: There has been a decrease of the number of youth that flock to Calvinism or the reformed movement, this is why it was necessary to repackage and repack it, to seem more vibrant. The new movement is called Neo-Reformed or New Calvinist. Mark Driscoll created T-shirts of Jesus as a DJ and several other blaspheming T-shirts. People with the likes of Louis Giglio, John Piper, Albert Mohler and many more now catch a gullible youth with smooth talking and visuals.

    Political: John Calvin was a student of Augustine, Augustine used an emerged state and church system (which is ideal if the doctrine is sound), emerged pagan holidays with Christian ones such as Christmas and easter. This is where Calvinism has its roots or motive for political agenda. It is just a matter of time.The Vatican is also stating to plant its roots in politics once again, just as before. Catholics.

    important note : Contort Scripture and create their own laws just as Charismatic, seek one large revival which goes against the Word of God and believe that all promises whether it is financial or protective is unto them, even though we as Christians do get favour, it is not the same promises promised to Israel.

    Catholic: The Catholic subject could literally be it’s own topic, however just for the purposes of these comparisons I will just scratch the surface of their doctrine.

    Dominionistic :

    Political: The Vatican for years already is quite a powerful force when it comes to politics, whether it comes to the Pope meeting with huge politicians, other religious groups or being part of the G-8. It is irrefutable that the Vatican have immense power when it comes to politics.

    Mikhail Garbachev (member of the soviet union) – ” Pope John paull || played a major political role in the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe… The event in Eastern Europe would not have been possible without the presence of the pope… which he knew how to play on the world scene”

    Alexander Haig(member of the CIA) – “The Vatican’s information was absolutly better and quicker than our in every respect”

    There are many many more.

    Economy: “The unique, noncommercial economy of Vatican City is supported financially by contributions (known as Peter’s Pence) from Roman Catholics throughout the world, the sale of postage stamps and tourist mementos, fees for admission to museums, and the sale of publications.

    The incomes of lay workers are sensibly better than those of their counterparts who work in the city of Rome. Living standards may be different, at least in their public evidence, due to particular sober lifestyle required.

    The Vatican also conducts worldwide financial activities, the Istituto per le Opere di Religione (also known with the acronym IOR and wrongly known as the Vatican Bank). This Institute has an ATM with instructions in Latin, possibly the only such ATM in the world.

    A souvenir shop on the roof of St. Peter’s Basilica

    The Vatican has often been accused by critics of being excessively wealthy, as in Avro Manhattan’s The Vatican Billions. However, the papal state has previously run budget deficits and obtains much of its money from international donations such as Peter’s Pence.

    In response to demands by activists that the Vatican should sell its artistic artifacts and give them to the poor, Cardinal Paul Josef Cordes asserted that the Church has the duty to conserve the works of art in the name of the Italian state and cannot sell them.” – Wikipedia

    This I believe is only the start of all their finances.

    Media: The Vatican hits news articles nearly every day, there are world wide broadcasts of all their annual ceremonies as people flock to the Vatican. How ever when the media try to expose these wicked men, they retaliate : .

    According to the Bible there will be a great falling away from the True Gospel, in the end times so we observe this today. Whether your part of the Charismatics, Catholics or Calvinists your still part of the same coin. Still believing in the same doctrine. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3)

    There is so much more information I would love to share with you all, several more similarities that all these devious sects share. They are parts of the same engine that drive the motor towards the end. So I encourage you to find you own Truth. (John 17:17)

    If it’s not the catholics that pray to mary to undermine Jesus as Lord and Saviour, the charismatics that put themselves on the same level as Jesus, Muslims that deny Jesus as Saviour, Satanists that pray to lucifer or the Jewish folk that also deny Jesus as Lord and Saviour it’s all relatively the same.

  • Ronald

    Hi! My apologies! I tried leaving a comment and ended up re-submitting Chris’ article from 2010! I sincerely apologise as it was a mistake while figuring out how this is done. I am actually trying to reach Chris and like minded people especially the writer of the article of ‘criticism’ of Pastor ‘At’. Please contact me at the given email address on how I could exchange correspondence with them. Thank you and God bless. Ronald

  • Belinde

    Chris could you please contact me on my email adress..
    (x crc member)

  • goodenough

    I am a member of CRC and i am more blessed than ever. its a shame people like yall try and bring down the name of a man that is trying to help us all. reading this article just shows there are just people that need to be saved.

    Shame on all of you for trying to break him. i assure you all CRC will take over, to win the lost at ant cost!

    Some day, most of you here will be saved.

  • goodenough

    Maybe you would like to tell us how you were saved?

  • I believe in God

    I have always wondered why there werent any articles on the ‘corruption’ or cult like effect of this church. My family has known At since before he became the At from crc, pre crc At was somewhat of a troubled youngster. But i am not here to judge someone’s past. However i have had too many people fall into the “trap” that i believe is CRC.

    It truly is as if these people worship At and not God. All of what has been said in the article as well as most of the comments are true. They are also targeting the young successful/up and coming sports stars of The country, brainwashing them into believing that if they join and tithe they will become successful etc etc….sadly and funny enough most of these “planet shakers” as they call them have long fallen off the path of success they were on.
    It baffles me to think how they are getting away with this and how they fool older intelligent people into believing at’s word is gospel.

    When a family member who was a journalist tried to reach At for commentary on an article (not related to this, but of a different nature) around 2009, all doors were shut in her face and she was very readily removed from his property/the church property which was larger than most rural townships in the free state. She later heard he had already left on his private helicopter anyway.
    I might be wrong but someone who is doing God’s work should not be so invested in worldly things whilst people around him are suffering.

    But before i continue “personally attacking” a man i actually do know enough of to critique fairly, as i see thats frowned upon by crc members on here.

    I am mostly worried for friends who are followers of this man/church. People who are investing more money and time into this church than they are willing to pay to their own families who are in need. If im not mistaken the Bible says that one should first care for those closest to you before tithing.

    I am on your side and will do as much i can to help put an end to this

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    I believe in God

    CRC is a cult through and through, AT teaches his followers to never question anything, just do as he says. He used verses from the bible to trap people into his church and places then under bondage. People think they are free under the CRC church, but they are not. They are not allowed to think biblically. People are pushed into bible schools at CRC where they are brainwashed with AT’s version of what the bible means. The Jesus that AT preaches is a false Jesus, one that lies and is only concerned with money.

    The only way to help people is for articles to be written and people to read them and pray the Holy Spirit is speaking to them that their eyes are opened and they hear the truth.

  • osito

    Me and my wife is now divorced as at boshoff was the only pastor from God for her and no other church than crc was right except rema and so on. I think they live in a dream world as At said this is the year of prosperity for his members. I ve seen a lot of sorrow in some members that i know, the one even start drinking allot 3 days ago because of depression have not seen prosperity, same as last year. Sorry for my english. They declared stuff in God s name that never happened and these are leaders of crc. My ex wife told me she will never marry a man again that is not in that church of her. I dont trust these pastors, sorry, if they know that the ring At boshoff has on his finger thats probably worth what i need to make a living for me and my little girl put of so much people that wants to beleave in God, why do they still go on against Matt.6:19 and call them self the lost at any cost, or might that just count for the members of crc not the pastors.

  • osito

    Ek het altyd daarvan gehou as ek in die kerk is om duidelikheid te kry oor iets wat ek nie heeltemal verstaan nie, toe kom At en se in sy preek as jy nie saam stem met als wat ek se nie dan moet jy vir jou n ander kerk gaan kry. Ek voel darm dat ek half die reg gehad het om vrae te kan vrae met al die geld wat ek in daardie kerk gesit het, ja wel tenminste sit daar elke sondag seker iemand lekker sag op een van die stoele wat ek betaal het!

  • osito,

    ‘n Pastoor of a predikant wat nie in nederige ootmoed homself blootstel aan Bybelse kritiek nie, is nie ‘n volgeling van Jesus nie.

    Neem my juk op julle en leer van My, want Ek is sagmoedig en nederig van hart, en julle sal rus vind vir julle siele. (Mat 11:29)

    At is ‘n valse leermeester. Ek sou al lanal padgegee het as ek jy was.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Osito

    >> Me and my wife is now divorced as at boshoff was the only pastor from God for her and no other church than crc was right except rema and so on. I think they live in a dream world as At said this is the year of prosperity for his members. I ve seen a lot of sorrow in some members that i know, the one even start drinking allot 3 days ago because of depression have not seen prosperity, same as last year. Sorry for my english. They declared stuff in God s name that never happened and these are leaders of crc. My ex wife told me she will never marry a man again that is not in that church of her. I dont trust these pastors, sorry, if they know that the ring At boshoff has on his finger thats probably worth what i need to make a living for me and my little girl put of so much people that wants to beleave in God, why do they still go on against Matt.6:19 and call them self the lost at any cost, or might that just count for the members of crc not the pastors.

    That is absolutely terrible Osito. I feel your pain. I pray that Jesus Christ gives you the strength to carry on and keep standing up for the truth. Pray for your ex-wife Osito, pray her eyes are opened up to the truth of God’s word, that she finds the REAL Jesus Christ of the bible and pray that after this she comes back to you. That would be wonderful. Pray Osito don’t stop.

  • osito

    I think the idols is one of the main answers for this church, like pierre speis and the star that sings on dream weak this year. I can see the excitement on there faces that these stars are in the same church. It s like how can it be wrong if they are in crc. Dont get me wrong i dont judge peirre spies!

  • osito

    “Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19. (They make a feast for laughter, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything. I gave my best to work out this phrase and for me it is, that this massage is sarcastic. The “and” part in the sentence, dis soos om iemand te andwoord, en n piesang boom dra appels. Sarcastic. The sentence in this letter starts without the “and”, why? And wine might make life merry yes, but i think it tells you in sarcastic that it will not bring you anywhere. I only quote this if this letter is for real from crc.

  • Brit

    Mo wrote:

    Hi, I found that this is the only web that expose the wrongs in CRC and its teaching as far as I know. I live in London, UK. Someone I know goes to CRC London. At that time, we were friends (not anymore, sadly)and challenged him with what I found ‘questionable’. He took it serious in the first place but later on seemed to judge that I was just dividing the body of Christ. The church is big and lots of young people (20-30s). The worship music was just like a ‘gig’. They rent a cinema in a dome for Sunday service. Nobody around me was opening the Bible (it was so dark so you cannot read the Bible anyway because it is cinema). I accessed to their sermons. It is not entirely wrong but there is hardly any explanation of context of the bible they are talking about. I can smell ‘word faith theology’ here and there. As almost no context, I am confused what this preacher wanted to say from the scriptures. They focus on the number of people (the physical size of the church) under the banner of ‘reach the lost at any cost’. But I wonder if they really come to the Lord with genuine understanding of the salvation (not just being saved from financial or relational problems). I just don’t understand including this guy, why so many 20-30, even 40 single Christian people are attracted to this church regardless of such a poor teaching. I posted my honest comment of confusion on their sermon online, they always immediately put a comment like ‘this preaching is life changing’ or ‘awesome preaching’ with many stars to rate higher….but again, no explanation or comment how awesome from the Bible what so ever……..I just want to ask you guys….why so many young people are attracted to such a church based on a wrong / poor teaching??? I now they say like ‘dream big because God is big’ or ‘be positive to get your life positive and successful’. Sounds it is not entirely wrong, but living in this end time, ‘success’ is not physical…..You may not get promoted, you may lose things that you used to afford but He takes us to the spiritual place where we couldn’t see in the life surrounded by stuff. Am I wrong? I wanted to see more sermons in this church but there is no public access to the teaching resources unless you register to this church…..I don’t understand why they do this, though……anyway, I smell something fishy from this church but no one says anything and seems very attractive to those young professionals. Is this the same in South Africa?

    I think the people in CRC London are simply brainwashed that the devil is outside their church and will attack them if they ever leave. They love the friendships also in that place. They are like family.

  • Brit

    Hey guys here is one of the sermons of CRC London. I need your comments please.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Brit

    I will have a look, gimme some time.

  • Brit

    here is another one also

  • osito

    I was so mad today, still kind of is. I put my trust in one of crc s pastors to answer some of my questions and ask him to keep this confidential and not to tell anyone that i am asking him questions. He told me he will not tell anyone he will keep it just between me and him. And today he just led it out to my ex wife.
    He calls himself a pastor and betrayed me.
    For me this is one of the worst things you can do to someone, and that from a pastor. I really feel sorry for the people in that church that put all their trust in crc s pastor!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    osito

    Why did you go to a CRC pastor of all pastors and ask him questions? Should it not have been obvious to you that the person would not keep your questions silent? The man is a false preacher first and foremost which means second he is not going to be truthful or reliable.

  • GetALife

    Hi Guys…I have not seen anything of this sort before. Never seen “Christians” bad mouth another in such a way. Not sure what everyone is on about when it comes to money…I had the privilege listening to one of my heroes in the ministry, Ps. Tommy Barnett.

    A man serving for over 60 years in the ministry personally said, you need money to do things for Gods kingdom. You can pray till you blue, but the people who open their pockets “cheque books” are filling hungry stomachs, building a dream center for the homeless, drug addicts, etc…Unfortunately the government does not do this, the church has to. How do you guys propose this be done without a cheque book?

    I suggest to stop gossiping and start spreading the good news…this is by no means good news!

  • GetALife wrote;

    A man serving for over 60 years in the ministry personally said, you need money to do things for Gods kingdom

    Rubbish!

    After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. (Luke 10:1-4).

    And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. (Luke 22:35).

    No, they are not filling the poor’s stomachs. They are filling their own pockets and purchasing huge mansions, the biggest cars and jets etc. to enrich themselves.

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (2 Pe 2:1-3)

    Wake up, they are stealing your money.

    Joyce Meyer endorses Tommy Barenett which tells it all. Do you also believe you are sinless, a god with a little “g” and that Jesus went to hell where He was tortured for three days and three nights to secure man’s salvation? If you do, you’re on the wrong track. Get off and come back to Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, who does not teach you how to accomplish your dreams in half an hour but makes you a totally new creation. That’s the Good News and not the garbage Tommy Barnett and Joyce Meyer teach.

    Are you saved?

    .

  • Robbie

    When the Calling becomes a career.
    I agree… Rubbish!

  • Boity

    lol Thomas..how is a church building a place like dream center filling pastors pockets? i mean people at dream center dont pay a dime for their stay there and the food they get there…or do you maybe suppose it’s all just a manna from heaven? you sound mad at the world and super offended….God so help you with all that bitterness in you….you quote the Bible left right and center butu still not getting what it’s all about….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Boity

    CRC is a false church, preaching a false gospel. The pastor runs it like a business. Most money goes to line his pockets, the rest he of course uses to carry on building his empire. Just because dream centre pays for people to stay there and for food does not mean the money that is used to run the place was acquired by biblical means! Fleecing your congregation for money day in and day out it not biblical, comprende?

  • Boity

    Deborah
    i respect everyone…what they are about in life isnt any of my business…but if At, Tommy Barnett and them are doing something positive to impact and change the world for the better..then their “wrongs” i dont care about. God will be the judge, if like you guys are say their doctrine is false, since they know the Word.

    and one question Debs.. you know we Christians, to many that aren’t saved yet, we are a “walking bible”…the life we lead and things we say are sometimes just what they need to hear to get to a point where they say they want to know this Jesus we serve for themselves…but if we Christians talk like this about other Christians…how is that helping one who is at the moment reluctant about being a follower of Jesus?…i need clarity on that please

  • Boity wrote:

    i respect everyone…what they are about in life isnt any of my business.

    Your very first sentence reveals what you think of Jesus Christ and his Gospel. Nowhere in the entire Bible are we told that Christians should not make it their business when others are deceived and led astray by false teachers and their false doctrines. I can quote you many passages in Scripture that command us to make it our business. In fact, if you do not make it your business you probably are not saved and do not love Jesus Christ, his Gospel and your fellowmen.

    Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)

    Nowhere in the entire Bible are we taught to do “something positive to impact the world for the better.” It again reveals your ignorace in regard to Jesus Christ’s mission to the world. He did not come to make a positive contribution to the world and to make it a better place. He came to seek and to save lost sinners (Luke 19:10). That means that He came to translate us out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his Son (Colossians 1:13). The devil is still the god of this world and neither you nor At Boshoff or Tommy Barnett can change it into something better. The sooner you realize this, the better for you.

    Are you saved?