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False Foundation of Five-Fold Ministry

False Foundation of Five-Fold Ministry

Five Fold Ministry - © Discerningtheworld.com - Fair use Copyright, Please credit and link to www.discerningtheworld.com if you use this image.FALSE FOUNDATION BUILT BY MEN

Christian Research Institute Journal

The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry

by Robert M. Bowman, Jr.

from the Viewpoint column of the Christian Research Journal, Fall 1987, page 31. The Editor-in-Chief of the Christian Research Journal is Elliot Miller.

It has recently become popular to speak of “the five-fold ministry,” a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal “Restoration” movement and its offshoot, “kingdom now” teaching, claims that one of the things which God is “restoring” to the church is this five-fold ministry. The sole prooftext used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13, which states that Christ gave “some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,…until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God.” The word “until,” it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers. However, it is the “building up” of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: “And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith…” The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in “equipping the saints” was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.

Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has “been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20) and that Christ’s mystery concerning the church was “revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit” (3:5). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.

The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; Luke 1:1-4; 1 Cor. 9:1). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet. 1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2, 14-16; Jude 3-4, 17). Peter and Jude did not say, “Listen to the apostles living today,” but instead urged believers to “remember what the apostles said.”

I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6; cf. 1:1), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas’s replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26).

There are other senses in which the word “apostle” is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were “apostles of the churches” (2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25). These “apostles” had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as “apostles,” were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage.

Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the “foundation” laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of “prophecy,” since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 11:4-5; 12:10; 13:2, 8-9; 14:1-6, 20-33; 1 Thess. 5:20), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called “prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32,37). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of “prophet” which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29). It is this office of “prophet,” not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.

Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the world “apostle” to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to “apostles” in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.

On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

The teachers of the “five-fold ministry,” in seeking to “restore” a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.

—–

End of document, CRJ0009A.TXT (original CRI file name),
“The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry”
release A, September 6, 1993
R. Poll, CRI

© Copyright 1993 by the Christian Research Institute.

Source:   http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0009a.html

—–

More...

29 comments to False Foundation of Five-Fold Ministry

  • Lydia Emery

    Dear One:
    As an ‘unexpert’ in biblical exegesis may I suggest that the existence of the false apostle/prophet movement in no way changes the Word of God. Rather it validates it.
    The Ephesians 4:11 states how God designed the church.
    The counterfeit copying of the true does not negate the true.
    We need the true Holy Ghost to discern the difference.
    Praise the Lord Jesus Christ at all times and may He give us all much discernment in these last and terribly deceptive days.
    Needing more of HIM,
    Lydia Emery

  • JB

    I still am looking for scripture which states that God “Took Away” these offices after they were “Given”. Since I have found none, that would make it clear that these offices should be in operation today.

    To deny God’s Word is heresy to God himself, regardless of what people say or think.

    For anyone to Truly have a walk with Jesus and declare a Five-Fold Ministry is not for today is NOT WALKING WITH CHRIST. Beware.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    JB

    No, they have not been taken away, but the first 2, prophets and Apostles have been fulfilled (commissioned by Jesus Christ Himself). You now have the HOLY SPIRIT, teachers, preachers, etc. If you have a problem with the Holy Spirit being ones councilor, THE ONE who guides us into truth, then maybe you are standing in heresy.

    Love your threatening remark at the end, that’s not very Christian like.

  • Dorothy

    This whole concept of the five-fold ministries seems to be an avenue by which a self-declared apostle or prophet can step into a church and create trouble. Isn’t this what some of the other false leaders in past “christian” history have done….???
    As true followers of Christ, let us not elevate ourselves to any place which does not honor and glorify the Lord.
    “For whoever is least among you all is the greatest.” Luke 9: 47

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dorothy

    And trouble they have caused. The entire church is a cesspool thanks to these people.

  • Kingstrust

    Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ

    Whilst I can see what the author of this articles is saying, I think that there may be some confusion over the following statement made – I quote from the article; “Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the “foundation” laid in the first-century church.”

    When Christ ascended He gave gifts unto men and these gifts of the ascended Christ were as mentioned in Ephesians 4, that is the five fold gift ministries of the ascended Christ.

    This is confirmed in 1 Corinthians 12:27-29 (King James Version) which says, “Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?” Which one of these would be excluded or are exclusively for the 1st century church?

    This is speaking of God’s plan for the church and it clearly speaks of the apostles and prophets. In the context of 1 Corinthians 12, we cannot simply remove apostles and prophets from the five fold ministry. I do wholeheartedly agree however, that the ministry of the apostles and prophets in today’s church is to set the members of the body on that foundation which has been laid by the apostles and prophets of old and of which Christ is the chief cornerstone. There is no other foundation man can lay and we need to earnestly contend for this faith and for the foundation which, as so rightly stated, never changes.

    What we clearly see today however, is that there are many who title themselves as prophets and apostles and who use this title to lay other foundations and to come up with new forms of doctrine and supposed revelation, none of which can be confirmed by the Word of God. At the same time there are those that also use the Holy Spirit as justification for their very false doctrines etc.

    There is no scriptures which would support the comment made in a reply to this article, I quote; “You now have the HOLY SPIRIT, teachers, preachers, etc.” This cannot be substantiated and confirmed in the Word of God and there is no reference which would say that these ministries are now no longer applicable and that the Holy Spirit has replaced these ministries. In fact, the apostles and prophets are mentioned in the same chapter as the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12.

    The Holy Spirit offers an additional 9 gifts, but this is a completely different subject. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is not a ministry at all, but rather it empowers the believer to more effectively fulfill that measure and gifting which we have in Christ and to truly be led in all truth and righteousness in the gifts which have been given unto men.

    I also can’t see how we can bring Ephesians 4 into a prophetic context as this was not a prophecy at all, but a letter to the Ephesians. So the apostle and prophet ministries mentioned in Eph 4 are not something that can be fulfilled such as the crucifixion of Christ, which was prophesied and then clearly came to pass.

    The five fold gift ministries are ongoing and will be there for the perfecting of the saints until we meet our Saviour on that beautiful day. The reason is that we will only be perfect once we meet our Savior. Up until then, we will need all five ministries of the ascended Christ in order for the true and full edification and unity of the Body of Christ. In fact, it is when the five fold ministries are not clearly evident or when we try and place too much emphasis on this ministry or that ministry or on the man or when we try to see which ministry we have, placing more emphasis on the man than the ministry that we see many sheep being led astray.

    When we just walk in simple obedience to the truth of the Word of God, then we will see this mystery unfolding before us and we will know that we have been set free by the truth.

    1 Corinthians 1:25-27 says,
    “Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”

    God is the author of the Bible and He is not the author of confusion. Surely the Word of God is not about needing a degree to understand it. Understanding comes by revelation not human understanding and knowledge. Salvation is for the whosoever and the Word of God is for all to understand through the power of the spirit of Christ in us and the the Holy Spirit which will lead and guide us into all truth.

    The church desperately needs watchmen in today’s age. May God continue to bless the wonderful work you are doing for His kingdom.

    Yours in Christ
    Kings Trust Ministries

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kings Trust Ministries

    Let me help you out a bit….

    Ephesians 2:19-20: 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

    Ephesians 2:20 says that the church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. The foundation has already been laid and thus the foundation laying function of the Prophets cease to exist.

    1 Corinthians 13:8-10: 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

    That ‘perfection’ has come with the finished cannon of the Bible and thus prophecies have now ceased. The Apostles and Prophets laid the foundations for us – we have the Word of God. We only need preachers and teachers – the Holy Spirit in each born again individual teaches us and leads us into all truth as well.

  • Kingstust

    No problem
    Carry on the good work then
    1 Corinthians 13:12
    1 Corinthians 14

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kingstrust

    No really…there is more… if you look at the hebrew and greek words for prophesy in 1 Corinthians 14 you find out that, SURPRISE!! that they are not talking about PROPHETS and PROPHESY BUT…. the gift of being able to interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching

    1 Corinthians 14:1 1 EAGERLY PURSUE and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching).

    So Prophesy (Prophets) and tongues speaking ceased, but the gift of inspired preaching and teaching has remained :) Ain’t that just lovely.

  • 1 Cor 14:29-33
    “So Prophesy (Prophets) and tongues speaking ceased, but the gift of inspired preaching and teaching has remained :) Ain’t that just lovely.”

    “Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.”
    “For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.”

    I am fully aware that it is not referring to future prophesy, but prophets and apostles play a role in the church because God has set them in the church in accordance with 1 Cor 12:27-31. There is no reference or scripture that would say that they are now no longer applicable today.

    Anyway I imagine you have many others to help out in the full revelation of the truth, so I will not keep you out of doing so.

    God Bless

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kingstrust

    >> but prophets and apostles play a role in the church because God has set them in the church in accordance with 1 Cor 12:27-31. There is no reference or scripture that would say that they are now no longer applicable today.

    What’s the point of having them there if all of genuine prophecy and apostleship has been done away with? Twiddle their thumbs? What is their role EXACTLY? Who appoints these PROPHETS and APOSTLES? Certainly not Jesus.

  • Let me help you out a bit…since you are still battling to find the scripture reference.

    You say, “What’s the point of having them there if all of genuine prophecy and apostleship has been done away with? Twiddle their thumbs? What is their role EXACTLY?”

    The point would remain the same as mentioned in Ephesians 4:12-16:
    “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

    Not much time for thumb twiddling here.

    “Who appoints these PROPHETS and APOSTLES? Certainly not Jesus.”
    Who appoints the teachers and preachers that you refer to? Based on the your appointment theory, who would then appoint teachers and preachers? Are these not too the gifts of the ascended Christ? Are gifts appointed or given unto man?

    No really…there is more…
    The last time I checked what the definition of a gift was, it said:
    1. something given; a present
    2. a special aptitude, ability, or power; talent

    So then, in Ephesians 4:8 you find out that, SURPRISE!! “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.”

    Now what is really lovely, is that the whole of 1 Corinthians 12 still applies today. Not only the first half concerning the spiritual gifts (there is that word gift again) but the second half of the chapter as well where we read from verse 27-30 “Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church,first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?”

    Where is the scripture that would say that this is not relevant in the church today? Who defines what is relevant for the church today or not? Once again, where exactly is the scripture that would say that there are only teachers and preachers today?

    So the gifts are given by the ascended Christ, the five fold gifts, and then there are the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit. And God sets all of these in place in the church and it is all confirmed in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

    Isn’t it just lovely to know that the Word of God is not about debating or trying to put a point of view across, but it is about what is written and that we, as members in particular of the Body of Christ, can with confidence rely on the divinely inspired Word of Truth which never changes and not on mans wisdom, intellect and knowledge.

    Once again, may God richly bless the wonderful work you are doing
    God Bless

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kingstrust

    Actually, I think eveything that I need to say has already been said in the article. I have no idea why I am repeating myself.

    1) All prophets pointed to Jesus Christ
    2) Jesus Christ is the last prophet
    3) Jesus Christ appointed Apostles who were given power to go out into the world and start the great commission. Since the BIBLE has been written we do not need Apostles and Prophets anymore!
    4) Tongues has CEASED http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/07/18/speaking-in-tongues/
    5) Healing is done by going directly to Jesus Christ in prayer and not a man who claims to have healing ‘powers’: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/12/08/can-satan-heal/

  • Nor do I have an idea why you are repeating yourself?

  • Marky Mark

    Deborah is correct.

  • Burning Lamp

    Kingstrust, Deborah repeats because you simply don’t get it. Take a deep breath and concentrate. Then she won’t have to repeat. I am sure she gets real tired of it and doesn’t like it anymore than you do.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Very tired, very very tired of having to repeat myself ESPECIALLY when the info is already there. (bangs head on desk)

  • Ryan

    Really amazing how Christians can argue amongst themselves when there is so much work to do. Il rather go outside and win souls for God…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ryan

    Clearly you don’t understand what’s happening here then do you? I thought not.

  • Return2Sender

    Well done Kingstrust

    Do you detect a rebellious spirit coming against you..

    Now watch it come against me, as they do not believe in gifts they would not know how the spirit of discerning of spirits works.

    God Bless you Kinstrust

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    *lets ALL remain really quiet and not say a word*

  • axlotle

    Although I do not necessarily agree with your point of view Deborah, it always amazes me how proponents of Five Fold Ministry fail to make their point through an appeal to scripture can readily they dismiss you comments smacking of a self righteous, puffed up spiritual pride. This is more sickening than their doctrine which may or may not be injurious to the church. By the way Return2sender – there is no discernment apart from the word. Spirits are discerned by whether they profess error or truth as laid out in the scriptures, not by a gut feeling, a liver shiver, or ecstatic trance. Hence why certain Christians debate points of theological and biblical difference. They are (hopefully)in a spirit of humility trying to arrive at the best possible understanding of the teaching of the whole of scripture through interaction with the community of Gods people. The community within which God meant for us to learn and grow.

    Return2Sender wrote:

    Well done Kingstrust
    Do you detect a rebellious spirit coming against you..
    Now watch it come against me, as they do not believe in gifts they would not know how the spirit of discerning of spirits works.
    God Bless you Kinstrust

  • anon

    Has anyone here heard of Apostle Les Crause who has founded Apostolic Ministries International (AMI – which is an online 5-fold ministry training school?!?!?

    Some aspects about this 5-fold ministry training school are bothering me:
    1) Jesus taught His disciples for FREE
    2) At AMI they charge exhorbitant prices for their books and e-downloads
    3) It appears to be a family business with numerous prophets and apostles within one
    family running the ministry/school……(I don’t recall this type of thing
    happening in the Bible, where a husband and wife are both apostles and prophets,
    and so are all their children…..)In such instances, how do we know if they didn’t
    all end up being lecturers at the training school because they needed jobs/salaries?
    4) At AMI a student can be ordained as a prophet or apostle only by the leadership of
    that ministry (what are the chances of deception there?!?! One can only
    wonder….especially in light of point number 3 above)
    5) Apostle Les Crause has apparently changed his name to Bill Yinaire (Billionaire –
    get it?!?!) in faith that God will make him rich….He says if Abraham can do
    it, then so can he….Only thing is that God gave Abraham a new name, Abraham
    didn’t give himself a new name…Les Crause has also had new revelation of a new 5-
    fold Business Calling which he has added onto the 5-fold ministry. The basis for
    this “Business calling” looks very much like the prosperity gospel. Although it
    seems to be disguised by the motive of releasing worldly money to advance the
    Kingdom of God.

    Their website looks fancy and they have a lot of information on it. But the above points bother me. Am I wrong? Has anybody else heard of them? I am only wondering because there seem to be so many false ministries out there nowadays and discernment is crucial. Especially when we are talking about the prophetic….Sorry if I have offended anyone. Looking forward to some feedback!

  • Duane

    I see, Anon, that nobody has responded with your requested feedback. I just discovered this website and feel compelled to answer you somehow. I have not heard of this so-called apostle, but judging by what you have said, I believe without a doubt that they are not legit. I believe that the offices of the apostle and prophets have ceased based on Ephesians 2:20 & I Cor. 3:11. Apostles in the strictest sense of the word were necessary for the establishing of the first century church and the completing of the canon of Scripture. In a more loose sense of the term, a missionary could be considered an apostle because the literal definition of apostle is “one sent with authority.” God sent the original apostles to establish the church. He can also through others, send someone to another part of the world to preach or evangelize. However, God will give NO ONE the ability to restart or reinvent the church like the NAR(New Apostolic Reformation) claims to do. Those people are heretics!!!
    Nobody can be trained to be an apostle. It is a gift, a calling given by God Himself, not a family appointed job description.
    Same is true of prophets. God used them to speak words to fulfill what was yet to be written down in scripture as future events—some of which have happened since the Bible was written and some which are yet to be fulfilled like nearly the entire Book of Revelation.
    I distinguish between the GIFT of prophecy and apostleship/modern day evangelist or missionary and the OFFICE of the prophet and the apostle. Clearly no one today can claim those two offices as job titles or create a stage show or revenue from self-appointed revelations of grand delusion. However, that is not to say that God can’t still today allow prophecies to be spoken for the edification of a person/persons if what is spoken aligns with the written Word of God which is the absolute standard for any and all so-called spoken revelation.
    The debate rages regarding I Cor.13:8 When will these gifts disappear. Some believe they have with the closing of the biblical canon. I believe the gifts are still active today, but they are simply that— GIFTS which God gives arbitrarily to individuals at various times in various places unexpectedly—without regard for making a show, a spectacle, or a career out of it. Those that use their supposed OFFICE to get rich at the expense of God’s people are abusing whatever gift they think the have and are UTTERLY DESPICABLE. If I start naming names, this post will get too long, which it already is. Hope this helps answer your question.

  • Jay

    I respect all of you guys opinion with regard to the “fivefold ministry.” Some may say that there is no need for fivefold ministry others say Les Crause is a quack; neither is true. One thing to keep in mind is that ministy is a business. Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, being in ministry f/t can be challenging financially(all that said in a very soft tone and with love). When you have administrators to pay, utilities, equipment, fees incurred when self publishing, travel, children, mortgage, food for your family, feeding the poor out of your own storehouse (these days not many people are donating to ministries for the poor, cause many have found themselves in the poor house), money for your own continuing education so you can continue to spiritually feed others, the list goes on. The finances for these things have to come from somewhere. We are not living in Jesus’ day, nor in the country he resided and neither of the cities to which he traveled.

    We live in not just america but in north america, more specifically the united states of america, where capitalism rules. Unless you are already financially secure try running a ministry/business full-time continually paying for things out of your pocket and see how long your vision last, see how long you can maintain payroll and take care of your family. It takes finances my friends. Brothers and sisters investigate beyond viewing Les’s website. Buy a book, make use of the practical projects in each one.

    I was homeless in 2008 when I moved to Greensboro N.C. AMI’s teaching changed my life! I was so thrilled when I got my first book from them and started applying the principles. I was depressed, suicidal, hungry, hopeless, but I stepped out on faith and God opened the door for me to start purchasing a book here, a book there and eventually different courses. I signed up for there daily devotions and that’s what helped me to make it through each day. I’m telling you if I did not have those teachings I would’ve either killed somebody, myself or both. Its not just theory in those books, its very practical stuff, that if you let it sink in your spiritual life will change. My finances changed as well but that was only after I fully developed my relationship with the Lord and saught the kingdom first. I was doing it in reverse which is why my life was screwed up.

    As far as his family being prophetic, your children have whatever spiritual giftings you have, its matter of if you’re gonna help them develop it. As far as his wife being prophetic, I mean if you ask God for something specific in a spouse, would it not be possible for him to give you a spouse that has all the qualities you ask for? Or at the very least someone who has a teachable spirit and would allow God to use you to train them in their latent gifts and talents, whatever they may be.

    MY LOVING FRIENDS PLEASE KNOW THIS ABOUT AMI…….ONE OF THE CORE TEACHINGS ON THE PROPHETIC IS THIS: PROPHECY IS LESS ABOUT RUNNING AROUND GIVEN “A WORD” TO SOMEBODY, ITS ABOUT DECREEING. WHEN GOD SHOWS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT SOMEBODY, DON’T GO RUNNING UP TO PEOPLE OR TRYING TO SHOW BOAT IN FRONT OF THE CHURCH; RATHER BEGIN TO PRAY AND DECREE THAT WHATEVER ITS IS COMES TO FRUITION IN THE PERSON’S LIFE; OR IF THE LORD SHOWS YOU SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO SOMEONE DON’T GO RUN UP TO SOMEBODY AND SAY “SAY HEY GOD SHOWED ME YOU GONNA GET IN AN ACCIDENT BECOME PARALYZE ETC”, THAT BRINGS FEAR AND THAT IS NOT OF THE LORD, RATHER YOU TAKE YOUR AUTHORITY AS A PROPHET AND YOU SPEAK AGAINST WHAT IT IS THE ENEMY WANTS TO DO TO THEM. LESS ABOUT PROPHISYING TO PEOPLE AND MORE ABOUT USING YOUR AUTHORITY TO DECREE. REMEMBER THAT IF NOTHING ELSE.

    ON ANOTHER NOTE, THE NEED DOES STILL EXIST FOR PROHPHETS/APOSTLES. THERE FAKE ONES OUT THERE THOUGH, BUT LES ISN’T ONE. PEOPLE STILL NEED DIRECTION, AND THE SAD FACT IS MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH HAVE NOT DEVELOPED AN EAR TO HEAR GOD FOR THEMSELVES (I SHOULD KNOW, I WAS ONE OF THEM) SO THEY EITHER RUN TO A PSYCHIC LOOKING FOR THEIR LIFE PURPOSE OR SOME WITCH DOCTOR TO HELP BRING LUCK INTO THEIR LIVES; AND THEN ASK FOR FORGIVENESS LATER. PROPHETS ARE NEEDED TO HELP IDENTIFY GIFT AND CALLINGS IN PEOPLES LIVES THAT THE PERSON MAY NOT KNOW EVEN EXIST OR MAY KNOW BUT NOT SURE THAT’S HOW GOD WANTS THEM TO FUNCTION IN MINISTRY/BUSINESS. SO SOMEONE WITH PROPHETIC INSIGHT CAN IDENTIFY THE GIFT OR TALENT AND POINT THEM IN THE DIRECTION WHERE THEY CAN CULTIVATE IT.

    I BROUGHT MY MOTHER BOOKS FROM AMI AND MY GIRLFRIEND AND WE HAVE ALL BENEFITTED TREMENDOUSLY. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THEIR MINISTRY CALL ME PERSONALLY. WE ARE NOT GOING TO REMONSTRATE OVER WHETHER OR NOT LES AND HIS FAMILY ARE LEGIT OR IF PROPHETIC MINISTRY IS NECCESSARY, BUT I WILL BE WILLINGLY TO SHARE IN LOVE WHAT I’VE LEARNED. 919-683-1283 ASK FOR JAY. OR YOU CAN JUST DO THE MATURE THING AND CALL AMI PERSONALLY(WHICH COULD’VE EASILY BEEN DONE BEFORE POSTING ANYTHING) AND ASK THE FRIENDLY STAFF ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE ABOUT PROPHETIC MINISTRY, BUT DON’T CALL WANTING TO ARGUE OR WITH A COMBATIVE SPIRIT, ASK IN SINCERITY, CURIOUSITY AND SPEAK WITH LOVE IN YOUR VOICE, NOT CONTEMPT. THEY WILL HELP.

    KIND REGARDS
    JAY

  • anon

    As far as I know an apostle and a prophet do not necessarily have to be in a full time ministry. There are many true apostles and prophets who have decided not to use the gospel or their sGod-given gifts to make a living, and they have a job to pay their bills and do their ministry part time. In any case, Jesus Christ taught his disciples everything for free – He did not charge them money for teaching them how to teach, preach, heal, pray etc. And our highest ministry example should always be Jesus Christ. Jesus and His disciples also carried out their entire ministry for free. They never charged for any ministry, whether it was teaching, prophecy, healing, prayer, or counselling. Even today Jesus Christ would teach and lead His true chosen prophets and apostles for free….there is no need for a ministry to teach people how to become apostles and prophets. Yes, they do need to have a sound knowledge of the Bible…but that is different to the actual spiritual gifting of a prophet or an apostle which can only occur through the Holy Spirit.

  • anon

    Thank you Duane, I thought your answer was very good.

    Further comments regarding my other response: I would like to clarify that I do think it is important for ministers and even prophets and apostles to receive mentorship, but I do not think that those called to be apostles and prophets should have to pay someone to train them.

    Further comments about AMI/Les Crause: Let me clarify that I have nothing against them personally. I am merely concerned about possible deception in that ministry. As with so many ministries out there today, it is possible that they have mixed truth with error. And that is dangerous because if the Spirit of Truth is not in a ministry then there are other deceiving spirits there. I have no problem being corrected if I am wrong. But WHY do people always get emotional and defensive about the ministers whom they follow? Is it because they are concerned that they might find out they were deceived all this time? Don’t you think it is more important to defend Jesus and the unadulterated gospel than ministers?

    Further comments about AMI:
    1) They invented a 5-fold business calling (this is unscriptural)
    2) They promote the use of positive confession/word of faith techniques which are used by the prosperity gospel. This is not the true gospel of Jesus Christ. While I do see God as our father in heaven who loves us, He is not a giant casino slot machine in the sky who spews out blessings as we demand. Let us also remember Jesus and his disciples had a hard life here on earth….Jesus was hated, persecuted, nearly killed by herod, beaten, and crucified. His disciples were persecuted, Peter and Paul were in prison, Stephen was stoned to death, Peter was crusified upside down, TImothy had illnesses, Paul had a thorn in his flesh (we don’t know what it was)……And let us not forget about that great tribulation prophesied about in the book of revelations – yippeee, we are all really looking forward to that time of blessing and abundance! You won’t be able to confess that away with hope, faith, and love!
    3) When you ask them questions they don’t give you answers, they tell you to buy their book to find the answer.
    4) You are not allowed to question anything….you have to stick strictly to their doctrine. For example: they will say that poverty is from the devil. If you argue that your poverty is your own fault because you chose a career that pays badly, they won’t see the common sense about the physical and structural limitations in this world and the system we live in, and will continue to say poverty is from the devil because their doctirne is that everything that is not blessing is from the devil (even a glass falling off your kitchen counter is a sign of a curse according to them).

    Lastly I would like to validate that my comments about AMI are from my experience with them while I studied a course through them, and that is how I have come to see how they operate. I am not a prophet but was doing a course about prayer. I would also like to add that I came under heavy spiritual attack while I was doing this course (my course lecturer was allegedly a prophet)…when I shared with the lecturer about the spiritual attacks I was told that this was the way that God was giving me practical training about spiritual warfare. Once Jesus opened my eyes I became aware of the link between my involvement with them and the attacks…I discontinued the course and the spiritual attacks stopped.

    Dodgy if you ask me…

  • Shanda

    Wow, reading these comments has really been an opener for me & it is affirmation of the importance of studying the bible. To study: to apply one’s mind purposefully to the acquisition of knowledge or understanding of (a subject); to examine closely, to scrutinize.

    I believe that living in the United States of America in the 21st century and with English as our primary language, we are challenged with knowing truth because:
    1. English is not the original language of the bible. It was written in Hebrew, Aramic, & Greek.
    2. The bible was translated from these languages into Latin by the Catholich Church and then further translated from Latin to English. This definitely lends to things being misinterpreted.
    3. A lot of believers are ignorant of Hebrew & Greek culture, & of the original languages.
    4. The Catholic Church did not include all books of the bible that we read today & have altered information. For example, a “bishop” is a man created position and the Catholic Church believes bishops are the successors of apostles as according to Catholicism, apostles no longer exist!!!

    Whether it is believing or not believing in apostles, prophets, gifts of the Spirit, etc.; it would behoove ALL of US to “investigate, examine” the bible through doing a lot of historical research so that we understand the original languages, the culture of that time, which leads to understanding why scripture was written to whom it was addressed to & who said it. May I also suggest that ALL of US study the Catholic Church as a lot of modern beliefs that are not biblical but man created derived out of Catholicism including the current hierarchial structure of most denominations!!!

    To reach a conclusion that apostles and prophets no longer exist just based on quoting two scriptures is insufficient. Investigating, researching, reading…all lead to a deeper knowledge of the bible then some of the surface answers we give. Let’s not forget revelatory knowledge, which comes through Holy Spirit illuminating scripture.

    May our love for Christ draw us closer to Him & let it burn a deeper passion for the pursuit of truth and revelation.

    In Christ,
    Shanda

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Maresu

    I am sorry but you are talking absolute nonsense. You are not a little god. Read this article to understand scripture PROPERLY. The Bible says, “I said, You are gods” – But is this entirely true?

    —————
    FRENCH

    Maresu

    Je suis désolé, mais vous parlez non-sens absolu. Vous n’êtes pas un petit dieu. Lisez cet article pour comprendre l’Ecriture CORRECTEMENT. The Bible says, “I said, You are gods” – But is this entirely true?

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