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Your Sons and Your Daughters Will Prophesy, But Not Yet…

Your Sons and Your Daughters Will Prophesy, But Not Yet...

Your Sons and Your Daughters Will ProphesyActs 2:17:   17 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams”

Thank you to Let us Reason Ministries for giving me permission to post their article:

Are we seeing the Latter Rain that the book of Joel predicted?

There are three facets to keep in mind to have a correct interpretation of (Acts 2:17) which refers to (Joel 2,3).

  1. Time                   
  2. Place               
  3. Recipients

All three need to be accurate to determine if in fact it this outpouring has taken place.

  1. Time–   this occurs in the tribulation period near the end, so it is impossible for this to be happening now.
  2. Place–  It begins in Israel specifically Mt. Zion (Jerusalem).
  3. Recipients–   It is to the Jewish people primarily for them to be saved. If this is not taking place with all three elements then it has not happened as the Scripture records and it is not fulfilled prophecy.

Latter Rain adherents have a movement that believes in a last day’s revival unlike any other in history. This revival is for the church.  They incorrectly apply eschatological passages specifically for Israel to the church. The common mistake is taking the scripture in (Acts 2:17) which says: ‘God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh,’ to substantiate what is happening in the new revivals today. This is not the meaning of this verse and cannot be applied today for the above mentioned reasons.

If we go back to the book of (Joel 2:28-32), we find that the timing of these events are just before the great and dreadful Day of the Lord, which is the day he comes back (Armageddon). The location where this takes place is the land of Israel. The people being referred to are the Jews. Peter himself is in Jerusalem and speaking to the Jews at Pentecost. (Joel 3 states: ‘for behold in those days and in that time...’ It then goes on to speak of Armageddon and judgement). This is also mentioned earlier in (Joel 2:10-11). So we see that this is speaking specifically to the Jewish nation concerning a future event. What Peter is referring to in (Acts 2) does not include all of what is to happen in (Joel 2). It is partial fulfilment at Peters time and a complete fulfilment will be at a later date. There is a main similarity that Peter explains, to say this is what Joel spoke of- it has to do with the pouring out of the Spirit (a manifestation of the Spirit among the Jewish brethren).

 

We should also notice that Peter quotes Joel, mentioning that the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood-red: ‘Blood and pillars of smoke before the coming of the great and terrible Day of the Lord’. This is referring to a specific time – a future event. Those at Pentecost were experiencing a glimpse, a taste of what would happen by the Spirit at the end of the tribulation period, which would bring revival to Israel as a nation.

All of the book of Joel is uniquely linked to the national salvation of the Jews preceding Christ’s return it is referring to the Tribulation period. In (Joel 2:23), we find the phrase ‘the latter rain’ that has been used and is still being ascribed to revival: ‘Be glad then you children of Zion and rejoice in the Lord your God, for He has given you the former rain faithfully and He will cause the rain to come down for you. The former rain and the latter rain is in September, the first month of the fall feast days (Joel 2:24). “The threshing floor shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil.’   The fall feast days begin in September in the Jewish calendar, it is a harvest time.

In (Joel 2:27), the phrase ‘former rain’ is used in the spring, and the ‘latter Rain’ denotes the autumn. Joel is saying that at this time, both of these rains will occur together. God will pour out His provisions on their crops, thereby giving Israel abundance and restoring the material blessings to their nation which will prove that God is with them again, and that their shame has been removed. The meaning conveyed here is physical rain needed to restore wheat, wine, and oil. What’s even more important is that the latter rain is in the first month. In Israel you have two rainy seasons called the former and later rain. At the end of the spring rain you had a harvest that was for grain, at the end of the Autumn season you had a harvest which was for fruit. But you also have a long hot summer in Israel. Israel basically has two seasons Israel is agriculturally reliant on its water supply because it doesn’t rain in summer. To understand this now spiritually. The former rain, the latter rain are two rains and they correspond to the 7 feast days given in (Lev 23). In the first portion, the former rain, 4 feasts of Israel were fulfilled in the spring season by Jesus’ first coming, the last feast was Pentecost. The last three feasts come after the summer season of planting. They will be completed by his 2nd coming, as He literally comes to earth to bring his kingdom and rule to the nations.

The clock is now stopped and we are in the time of the Gentiles and it corresponds to the summer period on the Jewish calendar, the in between time of planting for the last harvest. It is a time of working and plowing the ground getting the land ready for the next harvest. The rain comes and stops, the rain comes in the beginning and in the end the 2nd rain is greater because it is both the former season and latter season together. Many Jews were saved in the beginning of the Church and many more will be saved in the end as (Romans 11) says. This is the spiritual application of former and latter of the two rains. It is the latter rain that is so abundant that it is like two seasons put together. This Spirit is poured out on Israel. On Pentecost three thousand were saved at this first harvest, after this he says (Joel 2:28), He pours out His Spirit on all flesh. What flesh? Specifically Israel’s for their salvation. The Spirit is poured out and all of Israel will be saved. In (Acts 2):  The words ‘your sons, your daughters, your old men, and your young men’ are all referring to the fact that God is speaking to Israel then and also in the future. When Peter quoted this, it was to the Jews who were there in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. The future fulfilment also refers to the Jews in Israel. This is not applied to the unsaved Gentiles but to all the flesh of Israel (Rom. 11:25).

(Zech 12:10):  “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son.

The timing of this event is in the tribulation (Joel 2:31) before the great and awesome day of the Lord. In (Rev 6:12) it relates this event with the sixth seal of the tribulation. (Joel 2:31) it is the remnant that calls upon his name.

(Joel 3:1) says “in those days” and “at that time.” This describes the time period which ends with Armageddon, as all the nations are gathered into the valley of Meggido for judgement. In (Joel 3:12-15) he enters into judgement which is found in (Rev 14:18). In (Joel 3:13) he puts in the sickle for the harvest (also found in Rev 19:15).  In (Joel 3:15) the sun and moon grow dark and the stars become dim (also found in Matt 24:29, Rev 6:12 ). It is in these days that the complete fulfilment will occur.

The only way one can apply this to any revival today in the church is to spiritualize or allegorize this passage, removing it from its intended context. Which is exactly what we find these teachers for the new revival doing, as they apply it to themselves. Joel’s book is about the tribulation period and Israel, so there is no justification for putting his prophecy as being fulfilled before the tribulation or toward the Church today.

Source:   http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp100.htm

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49 comments to Your Sons and Your Daughters Will Prophesy, But Not Yet…

  • Riana Boshoff

    Would like to know more about the Kwasiza-Bantu-, Worcester-(Murray’s)and Welsh-‘Outpourings’/ ‘Revivals’.
    Thank you and appreciate!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Riana

    Will let you know tomorrow. From what I know about Kwasiza Bantu some really powerful stuff went on there, people raised from the dead (so the story was told).

    If anyone else has any info as well, please assist. dankie dankie thank you.

  • Riana Boshoff

    Thank you Deborah, for your reply & looking forward to more info on those matters!
    I have another concern & need discernment on it. Years ago while busy reading a book on prayer by Andrew Murray, something happened to me: I went into ‘heavenly realms’, experiencing a joy, fulness, contentment & a peace surpassing understanding – it lasted for six weeks.. I thought it was from the Holy Spirit, but gaining more knowledge about Andrew M’s life being a mystic & a Free Mason, I ‘m wondering now what was the force behind my experience?! And behind the ‘revival’ in 1860 at Worcester, Cape. Facts on his life report that Andrew M. was influenced greatly by many books written by mystics, like Madame Jeanne Gyon & Brother Lawrence, with R Cathlic background (the other christ)& practising contemplative prayer (kundalini), living a live of ‘mindlesness’, etc.
    -As we know, all the Murrays were FM, even Murray Senior from Graaf Reinet. Andrew’s brother John Murray, was one of the founders of the Dutch Reformed Theologian Seminary on Stellenbosch. The symbols in and on these buildings, churches, logos, etc. symbolises the ‘Queen of Heaven’ & Free Mason-occultism.
    Question is now: with what kind of ROOTS & FOUNDATIONS are we sitting with in our lives in SA???!!! Is THAT one of the reasons why we are SO OPEN to all of these contemplative-, emergent-, Eastern-mysticism-, non-Scripture-, occultism-, etc. religious movements/influences..?!
    Another thing that is troubling me is: MANY churches & ministries are praying that THESE SAME ‘revivals’, like the 1860-Cape, TB Joshua, Toronto, Assuza-street, William Branham, Kathryn Kulmann, etc. etc. will come to their congregations, NOT KNOWING that it were false & misleading workings from the ‘unholy spirit/kundalini spirit’!!
    We NEED a lot of discernment & knowledge on these matters. If you have the time to study all of these OUTPOURINGS, false or TRUE, PLEASE write about it on your WEB?
    Kind Regards!

  • Riana Boshoff

    ‘Your comment is awaiting moderation’? – does it mean that I have to shorten it & how many lines? R.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Riana

    Oh my goodness gracious me.

    Well what happened to you was in no way from God and it clearly shows just how powerful the false ‘holy spirit’ is. Um, if you want to know more about the type of experience you had you can read up on the 7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras article I wrote. There you will see what actually happened to you or get a good idea of what happened to you. And is happening to Christians all over the world, millions daily.

    Once the third eye or 6th Chakra is opened on your forehead you will see clearly through ‘gods’ eyes (this is the eye of Horus) or the eye in the triangle in the pyramid. The focus of ALL occultism. As the Emergents like Ron Martoia so nicely put it when he spoke with Stephan Joubert in JHB a few months ago: take off your lenses and put on new ones, see through new eyes.

    Once this spiritual awakening happens to you the new picture of the world around you will look like a Coca Cola advert, but in fact you may as well have a black plastic packet over your head because you are now blind to the REALITY of what is really going on and everything now just becomes…. relevant.

    You know, you have opened up a whole new can of worms for me here lol. I started my research on false revivals starting from overseas and slowly but slowly over the last 1.5 years I felt God direct me to start looking at South Africa – and with all my research on what was happening overseas I felt I was rather equipped to do that. But this deception is spread so far and so wide and so deep that I feel like I just don’t have enough time in my life to cover it all.

    From Angus Buchan I have been researching my way backward i.e., back to the USA and he lands directly in the hands of the New Apostolic Reformation (Latter Rainer’s) and during my journeys into research land have comes across some seriously hectic stuff that makes Kobus van Rensburg look quite tame and rather ‘powerless’ in his healing ‘gifts’.

    I have found names of people who went to the William Branham revival that was held in Durban and of course as usual witnessed miracles galore take place.

    Then I read and heard from someone about Kwasiza Bantu and that apparently during one of the services a massive strong wind came out of no where and blew through the building or tent they were in (obviously took this as being the Holy Spirit). Healings where seen, apparently many Africans came to the Lord, witchdoctors were even saved apparently. And then the person who was raised from the dead – Not sure if anyone actually saw it, but the women (I think it was) had died and then came alive.

    Then there is a guy who claims his birth was prophesied by William Branham to be a great prophet in SA. And this guy well… I have yet to write anything about him because he is just scary and he gives such little info about himself – also connected to the NAR in the USA – in fact I can link him and some guy he is prepping to be a great prophet in SA right into the hands of Patricia King from Extreme Prophetic (associated to Todd ‘Bam Bam’ Bentley)

    We also have John G. Lake and John Alexander Dowie (a faith healer) who helped founded the Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa in SA back in the late 1800’s with some other guys (from South Africa) I forget their names now…anyhow their congregation was predominantly Zionist (not Zionism)

    John G Lake started up “Healing Rooms” and became a full blown ‘divine healing’ preacher
    John Alexander Dowie founded the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church
    Less than 50% of the members where black and disagreed with some of the teachings because it clashed with African ancestral and cultural traditions.
    So you found many splinter groups formed; African Independent Churches

    And can you just imagine which church splinter came out of this lot – especially from the Christian Catholic Apostolic side? None other than the Zion Christian Church ZCC with ol’ Barnabas Lekganyane.

    John G Lake had a MASSIVE ministry in SA and helped to spread this Latter Rain rubbish. In fact thanks to him we can ‘probably’ say that this is how Latter Rain teaching crept into the Black community in South Africa and possibly spread from there. Of course it can only get worse when you combine Latter Rain teaching with African witchcraft.

    Now you have that Curry Blake guy coming over from the USA part of John G Lakes heresies sorry I mean legacy and preaching at Kobus van Rensburg’s palace I mean church.

    Because I have spent a lot of time researching Lake I didn’t even get to look at Andrew Murry and now you tell me about the revival in 1860 at Worcester, Cape. I didn’t even know about that one. lol

    I think I am going to cry. haha. That was long before John G Lake came here. William Branham was here in the 1950’s. So I need to look back even further than that.

    Can someone please lend me a 2nd brain and a few extra pairs of hands and give me another 12 hours in a day.

    Anyhow, looking at what I’ve read above, you will notice that Catholicism is the CORE of all these false doctrines.

    Riana if you would like, and you have information that you would like to give me (in an already nice typed out format) I will gladly publish it here! If you have tons of stuff in a nicely typed out format I will gladly publish all of it. I have piles and piles of documents and paper and about a billion saved urls with info and nothing is nicely typed out.

    Everything you have said above is a huge concern and what you say is absolutely 100% true. This country went down the drain 100 years ago already and no one noticed. The DRC were primed from the beginning to accept RCC teaching. When some in the DRC are now sitting up and taking notice and wondering what on earth their pastor is now preaching, they are bewildered and the leave and where do they go? They go to Oom Angus.

    It’s a disaster…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Riana

    No it means I had not read it yet and approved it :) But you can now read my long reply.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Riana

    Oh I also forgot to mention that before the 1800’s you had the French Prophets in the 1700’s who spread revival in France and did the tongues, shaking, prophesying, the works, even children would roll their eyes back in their heads and speak languages never heard of before for lie hours on end. Definitely not Godly.

  • Riana Boshoff

    Thanks Deborah, for all these pieces of the bigger puzzle!! I will love to help with researchwork – it will only take time to get all the information and as English is my second language, you have to help! (:
    To most of us as believers because we LOVE our SAVIOR, Y’SHUA H, the TRUE JESUS CHRIST of the TRUE SCRIPTURES, the BIBLE, and because we LOVE our fellowmen, we have an URGENTCY to see that ALL of us WILL COME TO THE TRUTH THAT SETS US FREE!!!
    WE PRAISE and HONOR HIM! R.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Riana

    Thank you! And of course I will help, don’t worry about that. Do take your time though in getting it all correct and in order. There is another lady who is on a holiday right now that might know about the Worcester revival. Will see.

  • cecilia

    Riana, ek is ook Afrikaans, maar redelik met engelse vertaalwerk. jy kan by DTW my e-mail kry of sy kan dit pos en ek sal help vertaal. taalprobleme is die minste van die eiertjies in die miernes. onthou net om jou navorsing in al hierdie dinge, DEEGLIK te balanseer met skriflesing en gebed. en probeer om ALTYD alles wat jy lees, na te vors in die Woord van God ook. anders kan jy prooi val van heel tyd kennis versamel en nie tyd vir Bybel lees en gebed nie.
    cecilia

  • Riana Boshoff

    Cecilia, BAIE DANKIE vir hierdie UITERS belangrike raad wat jy vir my deurgee!! VADER het dieselfde ding vir my kom bevestig gisteraand. Ek het skielik SO opgewonde begin raak toe ek begin terugdink aan my verlede en vir die eerste keer regtig besef deur HOEVEEL ondervindinge ek al gegaan het, plekke waar ek was en HOE die Heilige Gees my oe vir onSkriftuurlike en misleidende dinge oopgemaak het!
    n Mens kan NET ONDERSKEI as jy in die Woord en deur gebed NABY Jesus Christus bly soos jy tereg gese het en as jou hart skoon is. Hoe FYN is die lyn nie in alles nie en as dit nie vir SY GENADE is en mekaar se HULP om perspektief te bly behou nie, kan ons net so maklik wanbegrippe ontwikkel en self in die misleiding ingetrek word.
    Daarom sal ek graag jou eposadres wil he, nie net vir my taalprobleem nie maar as n klankbord om REG te sien, te hoor en te bemerk tov die Skrif. Persoonlik is daar ook SOVEEL vrae op my eie gemoed wat ek vir julle wil vra, en dit sal ek dan seker deur jou persoonlike eposadres kan doen?
    Ek sal eers DV hier in middel Januarie kan begin. Soms is ons op n plaas wat ver afgelee is, met min beskikbare bronne vir navorsing en baie swak internet-opvangs. Skryfwerk is vir my totaal n nuwe veld, maar sal baie graag daarmee wil begin, veral op hierdie gebied. Dit sal stadig, tree vir tree moet gaan en altyd in die vertroue dat dit nie net bloot kennisinligting sal wees nie, maar woorde wat lewe bring in die lig van die Skrif.
    Dankie vir die geleentheid! Baie seen vir julle! R.

  • cecilia

    Vrede vir jou Riana! intussen kan jy begin om jou kinders te leer wat die “ware leer van die Godsaligheid” is. die Jesus van die Bybel. Die korrekte leer aangaande Jesus, eniggebore (nie enigste-gebore nie) Seun van God, geleef as mens, gely, gekruisig & gesterf, begrawe, opgestaan, opgevaar en sal weer net so kom…. soos Paulus sê:
    1 Corinthians 2:2 (King James Version)

    2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    for your holiday time:
    Galatians 5:1
    Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    cecilia

  • Riana Boshoff

    Deborah and Cecilia

    I have found many articles on the 1860-revival on the Net. See Google Search: ‘1860 Revival Worcester Andrew Murray’.
    On this there are also other writings on different world-revivals. See the article ‘Revival fires: Stirring accounts of Christian-revivals around the World’ – Andrew Murray 1860, Maria Woodworth-Etter Ohio USA 1880, Evan Roberts Wales 1904, and others.

    After reading some of these info, I have some questions you must please help me with?

    1. Would God in HIS SOVEREIGNITY still bring revivals forth even in our day?

    2. If the answer is yes, how will one discern between the True and the false? In some of these information you see that the TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST was central before or during the events, as well as prayer and REPENTANCE from sin, good fruit and holy lives following.
    In other so called ‘revivals’ like Toronto, Brownsville and Lakeland, the above did not play a major role. The manisfestations were clearly occultic.

    3. Can it happen that a TRUE revival starts off with the Holy Spirit, but at a later stage the counterfeit can come in and mislead the people further on?

    4. Can the outward manifestations of the True and false, look alike? Is it just discernable by those with the gift of Discernment by the Holy Spirit?

    5. Will God only favor Jews, and not Gentiles, by giving only them this special supernatural Holy Spirit outpouring like in the Book of Joel, John the Baptist’s revival, Pentecost and other events in Acts and just before the second coming of Christ? Not in our dispensation at all?

    6. Will God in His GRACE and mercy override the following facts and still bring TRUE revival in the next circumstances:

    a. That the Murrays were Free Masons (satanic society)?
    b. The Dutch Reformed buildings,logos and pulpets, have Free Mason, Queen of Heaven/Sunworship and other occultic symbols in or on it and many Egyptian Obelisks in their churchyards and on their graves, espially at the Worcester-, Wellington-, Cape Town-, Aberdeen- and Graaff Reinet Churches? And most churches in SA.
    c. That the Dutch Reformed Churches and the Murrays, took part in the (occultic) ‘sacrament of baptism’ (the sprinkling of water on the babies foreheads), which is unScriptural, coming from the Baal/Sungod/Roman Cath.-traditions and in that action binding their children to demons?

    Thank you for more discerning insight from you when you have the time to reply?

    Kind regards, R.

    Ps. The YWAM-college at Worcester are experiencing many manifestations in the past years??

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Riana

    1. Would God in HIS SOVEREIGNITY still bring revivals forth even in our day?

    Nope, the bible says very few will find faith – so these revivals are 100% false leading people to the anti-Christ

    2. If the answer is yes, how will one discern between the True and the false? In some of these information you see that the TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST was central before or during the events, as well as prayer and REPENTANCE from sin, good fruit and holy lives following.

    Exactly, how do you discern? Well this will again prove that my answer to your 1st question is No, because when we DISCERN what they preach it contradicts scripture. And the Holy Spirit will also tell you something is wrong. Also they never preach about genuine repentance of sin (and the it’s always a group repentance type of thing) and they never preach the full message on salvation. Half a gospel = no gospel. Also you are reading a second hand account from someone who does or does not know, or thinks he actually knows what the Gospel is supposed to be but doesn’t – so he tells is like he sees, and how he sees it is not the truth. Just like Angus tells you he preaches the truth, all his followers will say the same thing. Imagine it was one of them who wrote an article on this lot, and somene read it in 100 years time. They would be asking the same questions now. hopefully lol.

    2a. In other so called ‘revivals’ like Toronto, Brownsville and Lakeland, the above did not play a major role. The manisfestations were clearly occultic.

    This is where the deception STARTED back in those days. 80 years ago you could go to a revival and people would get saved no doubt about it. But the underlying doctrine (metaphysical cult / gnostic teaching) were hidden. But at the same time the spirit of error was passed onto the people at these revivals. There was ‘another’ holy spirit that would do his thing to those who were open to receive it. As the years have gone buy more and more people have been baptised by this false spirit, some were delivered from it and repented, others loved the error. It just grew and grew and grew. Now everything and everyone is under it’s spell. I just love it when a pastor can say how many people were saved at a revival eh? Psychic? Pathological liar? More like it. How many people were saved? really? we will never know. Judging by what we have today I would say very few.

    3. Can it happen that a TRUE revival starts off with the Holy Spirit, but at a later stage the counterfeit can come in and mislead the people further on?

    I would say no. Reason: If the revival revolved around genuine preaching of the gospel and the Holy Spirit working in the lives of the people at the revival and then something happened that the pastor left, and someone else took over and this pastor was completely clueless – the whole thing will die down and dwindle away.

    However if a revival is started from a counterfeit spirit it grows massive and huge and people are supposedly saved by the gazillions. And as one dies off another one starts. Someone is always there to carry off the anointing and go start another fire elsewhere. If you look at all the revivals going on in the world right now you would think everyone would be saved by the end of next week. But the world just seems to be getting worse and worse…hmmm…

    Also very very important to remember and that is The Holy Spirit does not live outside of a person, he dwells inside and he does not leave and then come back and leave and come back every time someone plonks over from being slain in the spirit, and then gets ‘bammed’ by Todd Bentley with ‘another’ anointing and then get’s swept off their feet by Benny Hinn and then the day comes and you are baptised and you pop up out of the water signing in strange tonuges.

    Also I can’t find one place in scripture where any of the disciples preached at massive gatherings or stadiums. I do know they were in prison most of the time. The spreading of the gospel was a one on one basis. They preached to a small group who wanted to listen to what they were saying. A few got saved, they went off and got another 1 saved and so it went. I did not get saved at a revival. My mother did not get saved at a revival, neither my grandparents. I gave my life to Jesus in my living room by myself. It’s all a big show as far as I am concerned.

    I would say that if 50,000 people raised their hands in the air, prayed the ‘sinners prayer’ and repented of their sin and it all looked so sincere, the pastor will tell you that 10,000 people got saved. I would honestly say that maybe 5 (I am being generous here) got genuinely saved. The rest? Nope, because the message that was preached was false and these people came not because they want to change, they came because maybe they hoped something would happen and just like that make them think differently and not want to be part of the world. The other 5 were seeking the truth from the begnning and even though the minister preached nonsense, in their heart they knew the truth because of the Holy Spirit speaking to them and during the service they were saved – not becuase of the so called revival or the great potato pastor, NO, they were saved because they in their hearts sought after the truth. You will also find that they never went back to another Angus gathering again lol. So quite frankly I think there is no such thing as a revival. End of Story.

    4. Can the outward manifestations of the True and false, look alike? Is it just discernable by those with the gift of Discernment by the Holy Spirit?

    No, because if we study the bible we will see that the Holy Spirit never actually did anything like what the counterfeit is doing. If you are born again you have the Holy Spirit abiding in you. All born again Christians can discern, because the Holy Spirit guides you can councils you – he tells you what is wrong and confirms with scripture that what you are thinking is on the right track.

    5. Will God only favor Jews, and not Gentiles, by giving only them this special supernatural Holy Spirit outpouring like in the Book of Joel, John the Baptist’s revival, Pentecost and other events in Acts and just before the second coming of Christ? Not in our dispensation at all?

    Nope, why do we need signs and wonders when we already have the Holy Spirit? This is the Latter Rain Manifest Sons of God teaching LIE. That the Holy Spirit disappeared and was not seen again until 1947 (or something stupid like that). Biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard.

    We have the Word of God which is everything we need – WHAT A MIRACLE BOOK! And we have the Holy Spirit – HE IS JESUS CHRIST, HE IS GOD’S SPIRIT- what more do you want? The Jews have been spiritually cut off from God for the last 2000+ years because of their disobedience – they have never heard the Holy Spirits gentle whisper. So when their time comes God gives them signs and wonders, in fact the Jews are so stubborn God sends Elijah and Moses (2 witnesses) in the end to PROVE to the Jews that Jesus Christ is in fact their Messiah. It will have to take 2 of the greatest prophets to shake these guys awake.

    You know why gentiles seek after signs and wonders looking back the OT and Acts. It’s because they have NO idea what salvation means. They are empty, so they have to seek other ways to try hear or see God. I do not need signs and wonders, nor tongues. I have been miraculously healed once, just by me praying and begging God to heal me and He did. No one prayed for me or laid hands on me. I know that I am saved, I gave up my life for Jesus Christ and He saved me from the occult. In fact the bible says that those who seek after signs and wonders are a wicked generation. Wicked, meaning they are NOT saved, because if they were they would not be looking for signs and wonders. Hmmm…say no more.

    6. Will God in His GRACE and mercy override the following facts and still bring TRUE revival in the next circumstances:

    a. That the Murrays were Free Masons (satanic society)?
    b. The Dutch Reformed buildings,logos and pulpets, have Free Mason, Queen of Heaven/Sunworship and other occultic symbols in or on it and many Egyptian Obelisks in their churchyards and on their graves, espially at the Worcester-, Wellington-, Cape Town-, Aberdeen- and Graaff Reinet Churches? And most churches in SA.
    c. That the Dutch Reformed Churches and the Murrays, took part in the (occultic) ‘sacrament of baptism’ (the sprinkling of water on the babies foreheads), which is unScriptural, coming from the Baal/Sungod/Roman Cath.-traditions and in that action binding their children to demons?

    No, salvation is for an individual, per individual. Not a group thing. If a person involved in a/b/c comes to know Jesus because they want to stop sinning, and they repent in the most sincerest of ways they will be saved. There are many people in the DRC who are now seeing the wood from the trees as to what is going on there and they are genuinely saved people. Are the rest of the congregation saved? Are they still sitting there while 5 got up and left? Question the ones that remain. Do they know who Jesus is? If so why are they sitting there listening to rubbish.

    Thank you for more discerning insight from you when you have the time to reply?

    Kind regards, R.

    Ps. The YWAM-college at Worcester are experiencing many manifestations in the past years??

    I have no idea… but that would not surprise me because YWAM are hectic apostolic and prophetic

  • Riana Boshoff

    Deborah

    Thank you for pouring yourself out in writing on all the different subjects on your web, and taking SO much time answering my questions to the full!!
    I have a lot to go and think about, never seeing it quite in this way before! At the moment many things are flashing through my mind: Jesus preaching to 5 thousand and Peter to 3 thousand at a time (personally I prefer the small group); the laying on of hands for the baptism of the Holy Spirit to come ON the believers (Holy Spirit IN them already) for the equiping to be witnesses; the shaking of the building in Acts; Paul speaking in tongues more than others to strengthen himself; the urgent need for the gifts of the Holy Spirit even in OUR day, aswell as the work of the Five Fold ministries to equip and build the believers up; the following of miracles and wonders after the preaching of the Gospelmessage especially for the heathen people in our day who also desperately need the gentle whisper of the Holy Spirit as the Jews also need that! But I am listening to what you are saying and are open to receive seeds of the TRUTH.
    You have wonderfully said: ‘What do we NEED MORE than JESUS CHRIST, and to KNOW HIM’? I love the simplicity of the way you see and experience it! All the sweating and striving in our church programmes are in vain.. All the craving and the obsessions around ‘revival’ and ‘sensation’ putting ourselves into bondage again and taking away the focus of our true calling!

    TO LIVE IS CHRIST! Thank you again! Riana.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Riana

    Let me help you further:

    Jesus preaching to 5 thousand and Peter to 3 thousand at a time (personally I prefer the small group);

    Remember now that Jesus was preaching to Jews and the 3000 Peter preached too were Jews as well (not gentiles). This is also prophecy for what is to come when God pours out his spirit on them in the last days. Remember now too that Israel is going to be under heavy pressure. Does God not tell the people of Israel that when the time comes the are to stop what they are doing, take nothing with them and run for a shelter prepared for them (hidden in a mountain). If this was for the gentiles as well… I feel that they would have an unfair advantage because I now need to catch a flight to Israel to go hide there too LOL. Do you see how stupid this latter rain doctrine is? If the Church has replace Israel when do you plan on moving there so you can get to that mountain in time.

    the laying on of hands for the baptism of the Holy Spirit to come ON the believers (Holy Spirit IN them already) for the equiping to be witnesses;

    Exactly. When one is born again there are no fireworks. And chances are you already had the Holy Spirits speaking to you gently your whole life, but the individual just refused to listen. When that person finally comes to genuine repentance, and is then genuinely saved the holy spirit comes to abide in them and THAT is just the most wonderful moment ever.

    But a relationship with Jesus is something YOU have to work at. You want to change your ways to please God. The more you want to know and love Jesus Christ and study His word the more the Holy Spirit guides you and convicts you. When you sin, He convicts you like non ones business. When I write, I know that my thinking and reasoning is the Holy Spirit speaking through me to you. And you have the Holy Spirit now saying to you (or maybe not – I am speaking in general here, not directed at you)…yes, that is right, or that is wrong – He will point you to ALWAYS go and look at scripture to see what the truth is. (At the same time being caught up in deception and getting out of it is not a 5 minute counselling session and drum rolls you are now free) Nope, you gotta go through the normal process a human goes through when someone steals your bag and wallet for instance. You feel cheated, lied too, and you’ve lost a lot of money to a scam, and then lastly you feel foolish for getting caught up in nonsense. Well let me say, thousands of people are going through this. But the Holy Spirit is there, gently telling you to just obey Him from now on and you will experience true peace and learn to recognise His voice as He speaks louder and clearer as you draw closer into that relationship with Jesus Christ the Son of God. Signs and wonders? pfffff… stupid useless trivial waste of time.

    the shaking of the building in Acts; Paul speaking in tongues more than others to strengthen himself;

    Yip, the Holy Spirit came on the Disciples in a strong way, to prepare them for what they needed to do. They had to go out and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to nations where Jesus had not been. Jesus only preached in a certain area and no further than that. So the Holy Spirit came over them and bestowed on them gifts and temporary gifts (like tongues). The Disciples needed the strength to go out and face adversity second to none. They were all tortured and murdered in the end for their great commission. And the gift of tongues (an earthly language) would surface when they came across someone who’s language they did not understand. So now the disciples could preach the gospel to them. And at the same time another temporary gift was bestowed on another to interpret! Miracles took place and the believer believed and was saved. He ran off with the Holy Spirit abiding in him and preached to another, and another.

    Of course just as today many refused to listen even back then. The apostles/disciples all died in the most terrible of ways. But during this time the Gospels were written as God instructed them and once completed the Bible (canon) was then closed. God said… Do not add or take away from my Word, not one dot or tittle. That means there is NOTHING new that God wanted us to know about. Evey thing to EQUIP us is in His World, and to help us we have the Holy Spirit. And signs and wonders ceased (like tongues for instance). We don’t need it, the bible has been translated into many different languages, and people can be saved without even having read the Bible – just like what happened to me, never read the bible, no signs and wonders, I just came to a point (took a few years) where I realised how disgusting and sinful I was and sought after Jesus Christ to save me. I knew that no one could help me but Him.

    And just as it is today, it was back then that born again Christians would go out and preach the gospel. With regards to other miracles, we go DIRECTLY to Jesus Christ for out needs, we pray directly to Him for our healing. Of course yes you can get people to pray for you – BUT you need to make sure that those who pray for you are genuinely saved. Can you imagine having an unbeliever pray to his god (who he thinks is Jesus Christ but is not) over you? Even Paul said don’t let just anyone lay hands on you, make sure they are of God.

    the urgent need for the gifts of the Holy Spirit even in OUR day,

    Another Latter Rain lie. The gift IS the Holy Spirit who comes to abide in you when one is born again and with the Holy Spirit comes good fruit. But again, important to remember. The Holy Spirit is inside you! Also remember we do not SAVE people, GOD saves people. You can stand on your head and blow your socks off and people will just refuse Jesus Christ – nothing you can do – it’s the way it’s meant to be, because GOD knows their heart.

    as well as the work of the Five Fold ministries to equip and build the believers up;

    Another Latter Rain lie. The Word of God builds us up and the Holy Spirit guides us, gives us council, convicts us of sin, and brings us all into remembrance of the awesomeness of who Jesus Christ IS in our lives.. When you are born again you are equipped as you have the Bible and the Holy Spirit who will tell you when you are wrong. This 5 fold ministry thing is so taken out of context. For these people who like to use this, they use it to build a hierarchy, where instructions are then pushed down from the top to the little undiscerning people eat the bottom. Well I got news for you. All born again Christians are equal, we are all on the same level, we are all children of God. And the Holy Spirit guides each Christian into the SAME truth. One person will not get a better answer than another from the Holy Spirit because they are more special. No, the same message for all, the Holy Spirit will never contradict Himself either. So if you hear 2 contradicting teachings, one is not Holy Spirit inspired. The church will tell you that in order to prove they are speaking the truth all they need is to get a few people in to collaborate that the pastor is speaking the truth. When in fact you should have gone to the Bible and sought your witnesses (verses) from there, and sure as nuts they would be found wanting.

    the following of miracles and wonders after the preaching of the Gospel message especially for the heathen people in our day who also desperately need the gentle whisper of the Holy Spirit as the Jews also need that!

    Everyone is heathen no matter who you are until you become a born again Christian, even Jews are heathen since they have not accepted Jesus Christ the Son of God into their lives.

    Jesus said that after He would ascend to heaven He would send the Holy Spirit. And that the Word of God would be written down and would be a RECORD as to what took place while Jesus walked this earth. Heathens of today DO have the Holy Spirit speak to them (no signs and wonders needed). The individual has two choices. Listen or don’t. We have free will.
    But it also goes a lot deeper than this too. WE DO NO KNOW THE HEARTS OF MEN. GOD knows what’s there and He knows who will listen and who wont.

    This is not predestination where God picked people that they would be saved before they were born. Nope, it’s that God knows the future and He knows who will accept Him and who won’t because He knows their heart. Will some people never hear the Holy Spirit speaking to them? I think so, for their hearts are so hardened and wicked that nothing will change them. All God has commanded of us is to preach the gospel, nothing else. And if they refuse to listen you are to dust your feet off and walk on. We do not save people. God does.

    Another very important thing to remember. When Jesus was on earth He performed miracles left right and centre, but it got to a point where He kinda stopped because the people were coming to Him for the miracles and not coming to HIM. There were even times when a crowd would move in and Jesus took one look at them and turned around and walked away. He didn’t even preach to them. So we have to ask the question. Do signs and wonders help bring people to Jesus Christ? No. Jesus Himself has shown us that this is not so.

  • cecilia

    Riana, DTW said it to me once and it took me 1 week (if I remember correctly?) to do what I’m gonna advice you to do now:

    All your questions will be answered, and confusion will take a run IF YOU – STOP EVERYTHING, ask the Holy Spirit to help you sort out truth from error, then your only obligation is TO CHOOSE TRUTH, DISCARD ERROR.

    from there onward it was literally “easy pie” to discern the voice of Holy Spirit almost immediately concerning things that are not of Him….
    it’s worth the try! You’re gonna save yourself a lot of worrying, confusion, questions, etc. and you’ll be able to fully focus on God, His Word, His will (for you…) and the message He wants YOU to carry out to others…
    Keep standing then
    cecilia

  • cecilia

    what I left out and actually wanted to say is, “you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free” – meaning:

    Through the Word of God you know the truth;
    things opposing or not found in the Word of God is Error.
    Because truth set you free, you don’t need to understand Error for it to be Error. Error is not Truth.
    (hope it makes sense…)
    when I came to the place where I had to choose, Holy Spirit gave me these verses:
    (because I was doing exactly this)
    2 Timothy 3:7
    Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    and

    2 Timothy 4:17-19 (King James Version)
    17Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

    18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    after I chose to let go (forcefully making my mind subject to the mind of Christ) of ALL my past experiences, manner of doing + speaking + thinking and all that, Father God now brings me times where I can search and research; BUT the difference is, always in the back of my mind – can I draw a line through to what the Word of God has to say about this?

    So yes, you don’t have to stop being interested, studying, researching etc. But it must move to the last available space on your life’s calender….
    Time is precious, time is short, time is running out…
    cecilia

  • Riana Boshoff

    Cecilia

    I will do as you say, thank you for your advice and concern!
    I’m still battling with a few things: How much of the written Word, of the Old Testament and the New, can we practical apply to our lives today? Where does it say for instance that the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the work of the 5 fold ministries will pass away after the Bible was completed? If people, like NAR and others, have messed these things up and we notice the error and bad fruit from it, do we have the right to throw the baby with the bathwater out? If we can only get into touch and have a taste of Holy Spirit inspired apostolic work, if we can only hear and taste true prophecies right from our Father’s heart, being build up by pure Wordteachings, being lead by committed and caring pastors and hear the Good News preached unhiped-up by compassionate evangelists; will that not be a different story, in bigger or smaller groups? Miracles, signs and wonders has it’s definite place in God’s plans, untill today I believe. Sensation must never be the thing or our focus, but Christ-Himself! And I believe that it’s the system, the church that has it’s roots in Roman C, that is soo messed up. If we as believers can get to the place that we will start to function on the blueprint of the book of Acts, purely and rightful inspired by the Holy Spirit according to the examples of the apostles in the Word, it will be a totally different story: we will stand amaze by God’s love, life and power; the salvation and deliverance in our own lives! We just haven’t tasted yet…!! NAR must never be our plumline, but the written Word, made alive by the Holy Spirit and written down on the tables of our hearts. Jesus Christ is the Life within us, and He has many facets of doing His will and ways in and through us, His body, His beautiful Bride awaiting Him!
    Leaving on holiday with the family. I will be thinking on all the info from Deborah and you! Appreciate all of your time corresponding with me! May Father’s grace, joy and favor be with you! R.

  • cecilia

    all of us who “came out of the system who has it’s roots in the RCC” HAVE TO repent and renounce all the practices and believes we allowed in our lives previously. then go back to the Word of God as the only main source, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we will find the answers.

    >> “Where does it say for instance that the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the work of the 5 fold ministries will pass away after the Bible was completed?”

    see article: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/12/16/false-foundation-of-five-fold-ministry/
    cecilia

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you C, I was gonna post there link here and then forgot.

  • cecilia

    >> “If we as believers can get to the place that we will start to function on the blueprint of the book of Acts”
    I totally believe that we should not “function” on ANY ‘blueprint’ of ANY book in the Bible, nor outside the bible! We should LIVE according to the Holy Spirit of God indwelling us, and this is THE GOD who knows what is written in His Word, and He works through the Holy Spirit in our lives to LIVE a life that will reflects His Word; the Word (Bible) will confirm what the Holy Spirit is teaching us and He will lead us into all truth. We are not supposed to mimic out the times of the Bible writers or those who lived way back then, but rely on God and listen, through prayer and reading of the Word; and He will guide us through His Holy Spirit in our world today where each of us live…

    I believe it is because people in churches and movements tried (and is still trying to) to act out the acts/happenings of/in the Bible (NOT compelled in the first place by the Holy Spirit), that many things have gone way-wire.

    Many religious movements have this same doing: they use religious books to teach (would-be) followers, and THEN compare it to the Word of God (Bible). and it should be the other way around….
    I could be corrected ? ….
    cecilia

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    C

    >> NOT compelled in the first place by the Holy Spirit

    That’s it

    It’s not Holy Spirit inspired. Their structure is based on false doctrine therefore nothing on a false foundation can be biblical. Every born again Christian is equal and we all have the Word of God at our disposal. There is nothing new under the sun for us to know as it is all written in the Word of God. There are preachers and teachers etc. But Apostles and Prophets? What for?

    I tell you what for. They can’t handle the fact that this position was filled and completed after scripture was written. It’s called placing oneself on a pedestal and wanting to ADD TO and TAKE AWAY from scripture.

    If you go and look at all these so called apostles and prophets, not one of them is genuine. Not one, and there are thousands of them. All little philosophers in their own right with new knowledge and each one’s message is different to the other.

  • cecilia

    now there’s the buzz word DTW:

    philosophy = make sense of something / Word of God / God
    If it doesn’t make sense – alter it, bend it – because aren’t we suppose to ‘understand’ the God we worship / serve?
    (that’s these ‘alternative’s’ arguing, not applicable on real Bible believing Christians – I hope…)

    may I take the time to just say: I’m praying for all those who know me – that FatherGod will keep you save during this madness holiday season; and walk the old year out and the new year in and throughout with you – gently guiding you to THE truth, and after that, gently lead you to tell others THE way…

    blessings! cecilia

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Francois

    You have clairvoyance. Just because your dreams and visions come true does not mean it’s of God. Does this so called gift you have bother you?

    Do your visions and dreams lead people to true salvation and make them pick up their bibles and study the bible ONLY? Or does your ‘gift’ make people believe in the paranormal?

    The Bible tells us that each and every Born again Christian has the Holy Spirit abiding in them who councils them, leads them into ALL truth, tells them what is right and what is wrong. The Holy Spirit will always send a person directly to the Word of God for answers and not to a person who can fortune-tell.

    Please do not see what I am saying to you as an insult. There is nothing wrong with you mentally. You need to seek Jesus Christ and He will remove this from you. You do not even need to seek so called ‘deliverance’ from other people to help you.

    Because you have believed Satan’s lie that what you have is from God, you have disobeyed God. But this problem can be solved and that is by simply coming before Jesus Christ in ALL earnest, in ALL sincerity and asking Him into your life. You need to be truly born again, saved by Jesus Christ and your sin washed away by the Blood of Jesus Christ – you will me made new, a new person in Jesus.

    I would like you to go and read this article Francois and come to accept Jesus Christ TOTALLY, 100% into your life. Get rid of this demonic affliction. You are not possessed! Don’t mistake oppression by demonic forces that you are possessed. If you have ever accepted Jesus Christ into you life but you were never really that sincere it’s about time you get sincere with Jesus Christ.

    God speaks to you through the Bible and the Holy Spirit who is convicting you RIGHT NOW that what is happening to you is not of God. You know deep down it’s not right.

    So Francois, let Jesus Christ the Son of God renew your mind, let Him into your life, (and only He can renew your mind) and become a child of God.

    No where on my website do I condone the supernatural. I lived a terrible life prior to being truly saved Francois. You are not the only one who had demonic oppression but when I was truly saved I was set free. (I did not have what you have, but I saw stuff that I should not have seen). God removed this from me and I am free.

    You have a choice now, do you want to be free from this bondage you are under and come before Jesus Christ and ask forgiveness for your sin; for everything you have done in your life, for accepting that this so called gift you have is from Him when it is not? You are facing a spiritual battle as Satan will do his best right now to try convince you that this gift is from God to keep you under his control. You can tell him to leave you alone once and for all by accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour and REPENTING OF ALL YOUR SIN.

    PS, Sort your life out with God first Francois. Asking Jesus to forgive you for ALL your sin (and name your sin in your prayer (you know what is right and what is wrong) to show Jesus how sincere you are) is all you need to do to come into a genuine saving relationship with Him. Acknowledge once and for all that these dreams and visions are not from Him and He will deliver you. And please do not go seek help at a church, do not let anyone lay hands on you, just go sit on your couch and ask Jesus into your life and repent – repentance is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. Jesus needs to know you are sincere.

    And just remember one thing, once you are genuinely saved, if Satan tries to sneak back into your life, ignore him and ask Jesus for forgiveness and ask Jesus to help you in your walk with Him. Prayer is a conversation with Jesus. It’s an intimate one on one prayer/conversaton with Jesus where you just let Him know how you feel and how you want HIM to come into your life and how you want HIM to control your life. You love Him, you revere Him as your Lord and Saviour, He is your King, and if you disobey Him and seek after things that He tells you to stay away from, you will pay the price for your sin on earth. Eg, if you steal you will get into trouble? right? If you play with fire you will get burnt right? If you have a recurring dream and you think it just might come true again, you are falling back into satans trap. But the moment you come back to Him and ask Him to forgive you He forgives IMMEDIATELY – but you WILL WANT TO CHANGE YOUR WAYS. If you don’t want to change but keep asking God to forgive you, then it’s kinda pointless, right? Like having a friend who always hurts you, treats you badly or ignores you, but insists they are your friend – it’s clear they are not your friend.

    Get sincere Francois. You know what’s going on in your heart. Find Jesus Christ, and remove Satan out of your life once and for all. Oh and lastly ask Jesus to forgive you for all the people you prophesied too. And if you see these people again, tell them that you are sorry for what you did, that it was not from God and tell them why. They then have the choice to seek God on the matter – just as you are doing right now.

    Anymore questions, you can comment again. Also remember, many people read this and there is someone out there in the same position as you, and your situation and my reply will help someone out there who is struggling with the same oppression.

  • Grant C

    Francois

    Ek het net gou kom inloer by hierdie bladsy, en my oog vang toe jou skrywe. Ek wil nie graag enigiets bylas tot wat Deborah hierbo geskryf het nie. Haar advies oor hierdie onderwerp is in die kol en Bybels korrek.

    Ek wil net noem dat indien daar meer sulke advies beskikbaar gestel was deur die kerke vandag, sou baie minder mense so swaar gebukkend gewees het onder die vreeslike verdrukking, misleiding en skuld wat Satan, deur verkeerde leringe, verlore mense onder plaas.

    Seenwense vir jou!

  • Robbie

    Hoor hoor Grant!

    Francois!!

    Giam hier! baie welkom

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Grant

    >> Ek wil net noem dat indien daar meer sulke advies beskikbaar gestel was deur die kerke vandag…

    That’s it. They do not tell you this at all. They will come up with all sorts of other stuff to lead you in every other direction instead of genuine repentance with Jesus Christ who will deliver you – if one is sincere of course.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Francois I am not going to post your comment. [EDITED: It was out of common decency from my part that I did not want to post your comment, but you have requested I post you comment, so I have posted your comment – see above: 2010/05/04 at 7:33pm. Everything in this comment below still applies]

    All I am going to say to you is, if you are REALLY sincere you WILL ask God for genuine forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ.
    This is what I am going to say to you based on just two thing you said in your comment.

    You said, “….focus on repentance and conversion of sin before being saved. Just another church or dogma.” Um, there is your problem Francois, you refuse to ask God for forgiveness of your sin and CHANGE YOUR WAYS. If you don’t want to change your ways there is nothing anyone can do for you. Only Jesus Christ can help you. You will not be able to change your lifestyle by your own power and this is what you are trying to do. Your life is a mess because of your own doing, no anyone else’s. And no, living in sin…”or thinking I can attain a standard of living that will make me acceptable before God” is just wrong. You want to live in sin and have God accept your sin. Your openness to me is not going to change how you want to live your life. And saying that you don’t go looking for strange things, that they just seem to find you is ridiculous. Because of your willingness to want to live a sinful life and liking the ideas of certain things you have automatically opened yourself and welcomed Satan into your life. You don’t want to give up your sinful life Francois. You like the life you are living. You speak about repentance but you at the same time are not really sorry.

    Francois, this is my prayer for you. That you come to genuine repentance and have the Holy Spirit come to abide in you that you are genuinely saved and that you will want to change your ways because of the Holy Spirit guiding you and leading you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Francois

    I did not put your comment online simply because I did not want the public to know your personal life details. I thought out of common decency I would keep your life details out of the public eye. But if you want, I will put it online. Actually no, I am going to remove both your comments and leave mine to you as a reminder. No one knows who you are and no one needs to know who you are. Jesus is the most important ONE in your LIFE and HE knows who you are and what’s in your heart.

    If praying that you sort out your life with Jesus Christ is being judgemental then Francois, I don’t know. You wanted advice from a biblical perspective, and I gave you advice. You do what you want with it.

    I pray again Francois that you listen to God once and for all and sort your life out.

  • Francois Marais

    Deborah

    I have continued reading about what I might have been involved in and it was wrong and could most definitely been demonic even. I will have to pray for forgiveness of those serious sins. And ask God to remove all curses that might have been brought upon me.

    I am busy sorting my life out. Think I need to pray for these things (sins)first and then ask God to help me in the way forward. Dealing with my divorce, business, life etc.

    I don’t believe that I will be excluded from heaven because of any sins that God might not want to forgive for there is nothing that God will not forgive.

    And I plan to walk away from those sins. Wish smoking could be easy. I will have to ask God to help me with that one and all other sins yes. Still I do not think these sins will keep me out of Heaven but there are consequences of these sins and yes I want to make God happy or honor Him trough obedience.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Francois

    You wont be excluded from Heaven Francois. You need the peace of Jesus Christ in your life and currently you don’t have that. And yes, only Jesus can help you. There is a difference between willingly wanting to sin and coming into a relationship with Jesus Christ were you ask Him to control your life totally where you will give up these sins because the Holy Spirit will convict you of these things and HELP you stop.

    We will never be perfect while on this earth Francois. I will never judge anyone; you know what is going on in your life and Jesus knows what is going on in your heart. Let Him and only Him guide you. And you will know the difference between the Holy Spirit’s voice and another spirit. God will always give you a SOUND mind. Sometimes Satan gives us a semi-sound mind but it always turns into turmoil again.

    God already knows what’s happening to you. He knew before you even realised it. Now He wants you to obey Him. When you come to the point in your life Francois where you really want to stop smoking God will deliver you. You started smoking because of rebellion in your life.

    Think about it like this. You have a friend. You do something wrong that your friend asked you not to do. This hurt your friend. Will you say sorry or will you ignore your friends feelings? Now, let’s say that you say sorry. Will you do it again? Let’s say you do it again. Your friend loves you and you hurt this person even more. Will you come to this person and ask forgiveness again? This person will forgive you because they love you. Did you ask for forgiveness because you love this person too? Or because you want something from this person and your friendship is actually one sided? Just as you would ask your fellow neighbours forgiveness for things you have done wrong (even the smallest things) how much more so will get on your knees before JESUS CHRIST (for the smallest of smallest things) and ask JESUS Christ forgiveness? Think about it.

    But there will come a time when your friend will ignore you because you repeatedly hurt the person over and over and over again (this is called perpetual sin – a willingness to do bad). Now your friends patience can last quite long and will give you time and time again to redeem yourself- God’s love for you is greater and His patience can last you most of your life time (let’s hope it’s not a short life time) – however there will come a time when He will give you over to your sin. because He knows you have no intention of changing, even the ‘small’ sins. You can’t play with God either.

    You will be ok Francois! Just let Jesus Christ into your life. You are going through a tough time right now, but everything will be ok IF you obey Jesus.

  • Francois Marais

    After reading this blog and the letusreason blog and thinking about the new age stuff and the whole charismatic movement and what it has done to me personally over the last 30 years I am very angry. i think i need a break from any religion. even if people tell me sweet things like i need a relationship with Jesus etc. sounds nice but a relationship is a two way thing. you talk and the other person talks. thats where the charismatics are one up on the others with all new and fancy stuff (Outside the Bible). It really has messed with my head and I now feel free like I have never felt in my life. The Charismatic Movement and there stuff is so way way more dangerous and destructive than what people realise. I will just be angry for a few more days and then I will be ok but no more dream books and funny new age stuff. Nothing! Thanks for your blog and the work you do!

  • Burning Lamp

    Francois, it is ok to be angry at the error, a righteous anger because it tramples on God’s precious truth. But don’t stay there. Move on to discover the truth of the Word and the freedom you have in Christ. Read the good articles on this blog about true salvation, read a GOOD Bible translation and camp on that for awhile. Be assured of your salvation and rest in that. Trust the Lord to help you day by day through the challenges you are facing. Don’t try to take it all on at once – step by step He will lead you. Resist the enemy and he will flee. Thank God you have turned a corner and are headed in the right direction.

  • Amanda

    Francois

    God has spoken to us through His Word and through His Son. You absolutely have to break from religion. On top of that I want to encourage you to do a couple of things. Consider it carefully and reject what is not right.

    1. Feed on the Word. Just read it straight. No hidden meanings or secret messages.
    2. Download a few sermons. Listen to it critically. If they pass the test, feed on it. If it does not, reject it and refuse to listen to a preacher who will not give you the Law and the Gospel. Remember, “faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” (Rom 10:17) You can try any of the sermons here – Holy Trinity Lutheran Church, pastor Cwirla and here – Faith Lutheran Church. You will hear the difference.
    3. Once you have fought off starvation, listen to a few of Chris Rosebrough’s podcasts to learn discernment. Chris takes his time to go to the Bible, read it in context and explain what it means. You will be astounded at what is being taught out there.
    4. Don’t let anybody take you captive again. The Bible is the sole authority. Cling to that and go it alone if you have to.
    5. Let us know how you get on?

  • Elmarie A

    Francois Marais

    The Charismatic Movement and there stuff is so way way more dangerous and destructive than what people realise. I will just be angry for a few more days and then I will be ok but no more dream books and funny new age stuff. Nothing! Thanks for your blog and the work you do!

    The deceipt has crawled into just about all denominations. One cannot attend any church with safety any longer.

  • Burning Lamp

    Amanda, isn’t Chris Rosborough a Calvinist? Is it wise to direct someone who is trying to sort out their spiritual life to someone who is following false doctrine themselves? Just wondering…………..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp / Amanda

    Lutheran I think. I think it’s better when sending someone to read someone’s stuff that we always give a warning attached. I am beginning to learn this lesson slowly…

    Does Chris Roseborough still think Mark Driscoll is ok? We know this was a while ago that this happened. Has he changed his mind.

    I realised that what happens is we read stuff from long ago, not realising what we read was not 100% ok. We forget, we become complaisant to go back and check to make sure things are still ok. Perfect example is Johan Malan. What he says is great, but the eternal security thing bothers me big time.

    Another example is Roger Oakland – his book Faith Undone contained very good facts, but he associates and has recently released a DVD (I think it is) with Chuck Missler. How can he be miss-led on the alien/bible code thing? So I watch and see what will transpire there…

  • Burning Lamp

    Roger Oakland has been inactive ever since his accident in Canada that left him with serious injury bleeding on the brain. I think it has been about a year. Last I heard he still has impaired vision and is homebound. I would withhold any comments about Roger at this time and allow him to heal.

    He does have a DVD on his site with several speakers including Missler. I doubt if Roger has knowledge of Missler’s dive into darkness. I wouldn’t judge Roger on this basis until he is back into circulation and gets up to speed on all the info. Roger is a courageous defender of the faith and I can’t see him going along with this if he was well.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp

    Re- Roger, that is very very true. This is why we have to wait and see. I don’t judge the guy, gosh if I could help him I would.

  • Burning Lamp

    We sure do need to have Roger back in the saddle. May we all agree that the Lord will retore him to health and use him mightily again. He truly is a living sacrifice. He wore himself down physically with all his travels and was at the farm to refresh as he loved to do the farm work. His assistant has had serious health problems as well but has been able to at least keep the website going.

  • Francois Marais

    thanks to everyone for your concerns and advice. I am not so angry anymore. Will read this stuff posted above and recommended further reading etc. Will report follow up.

  • Peter

    DELETED

    Peter, you are welcome to make comments. However, we only except the Bible as authoritative. Extra-Biblical revelation to support a position will not be posted. Admin.

  • William

    So I agree that we are to read the word of God literally and not try to find some cosmic meaning in it. So if I read the bible literally that what does mark 16:17,18 say? what about John 14:12? Its funny how when it comes to anything else we are to read the bible literally except those particular verses. Jesus himself said these things, and we know he cannot lie so please explain it to me. Who was Jesus referring to in these verses?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    William

    We are to read the bible literally, spiritually and contextually – ALL THE TIME! So I have no idea what you are speaking about.

  • Martin Horan

    Thanks for posting the above article regarding prophesying, Deborah.
    I’ve listened to personal prophecies from people and was dubious on hearing them. I’ve seen through time that they haven’t materialized. But even if they had done it’s still not proof in itself as being of God. The Bible tells us that sometimes false prophets can “prophesy” correctly. Flukes do happen.
    Sometimes I was stuck when when people would quote Acts 2:17 to back their position. I knew somehow that it was being quoted out of context but couldn’t prove it. Dave Hunt’s been a great help in getting me to see how these false prophets and false preachers work. In the past I did fall for some of their stuff. So I know how convincing they can be.
    But as the above article dealt particularly with Act 2:17 it was a real eye-opener for me.
    So thanks so much for putting on that teaching from the Let Us Reason Ministries on your blog.
    It’s excellent. It’s hit the nail on the head. Now I know how to stop those “sins and wonders” merchants in their tracks.
    Thank you again.

  • Dr.H.Davis

    If the ‘latter rain’ people could just read the Bible clearly. The kingdom was being presented as in Acts 2 to Israel.It was to last from AD 30 when Christ was presented to Israel and end in 70 AD when Israel rejected,finally,Jesus as the Messiah and God’s Only Son.Forty years the number of testing! This was fufilled by Micah in 7:15 as your ‘coming out of Egypt’ or 40 years. Or that God would show them ‘miracles’which He did through the Apostles-30 AD to 70 AD 40 years and the destruction of Jerusalem.
    Now ALL will be ‘fulfilled’ which word Peter does NOT use in quoting Joel in Acts 2 during the 1,000 year Reign of Christ on earth.Mighty healings and raising the dead,etc.,will be daily events by God’s people during this glorious Reign.See Isa.

  • LF Humire

    [deleted – I’ve given you the CORRECT BIBLICAL interpretation of scripture, I did not want you to come back with the most bizarre twisted version to date]

  • melanie

    Good job Deborah!

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