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Mystery Babylon

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MysteryBabylon Mystery BabylonMystery Babylon, Part I

By Hunt, Dave – Jul 1, 1993

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets,…how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Luke:13:34

I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore…With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication….I saw a woman…And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT….[She was] drunken with the blood of the saints, and…of the martyrs of Jesus….[She] is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth [and is built on] seven hills [i.e., Rome]. Revelation:17:1-6,18

Jerusalem and Rome! How different and yet how similar are these ancient (and current) rivals for worldwide spiritual leadership! Both figured so largely in Christ’s crucifixion and the persecution of the early church. Both are destined by God also to play dominant roles in the final events prophesied in Scripture. Antichrist will rule the world from Rome’s fabled throne of the Caesars, revived as the seat of the new world order. This “Wicked [one]” (2 Thes:2:8) will be embraced by Israel as her Messiah (Jn:5:43) when he brings peace to the Middle East and allows the temple to be rebuilt. That the stage for these coming events is already set seemed apparent to the participants in last month’s video making tour of Israel and Rome. [Emphasis added]

The fate of Jerusalem has been inextricably intertwined with that of Rome ever since they joined in unholy alliance to reject and crucify the Lord of glory (Acts:2:23; 1 Cor:2:8). That uneasy partnership was shattered with Jerusalem’s destruction by Rome’s legions in A.D. 70, foretold both by Daniel (9:26) and Jesus (Mat:24:2). The Roman Empire must be revived, for one day its armies will belong to Daniel’s “prince that shall come”—i.e., Antichrist––and will seek to destroy Jerusalem again.

The woman in Revelation 17 can only be Rome/Vatican City. No other city built on seven hills wields such authority, exchanging ambassadors with nations . Nor does any other city claim to represent Christ, and thus no other could stand accused of spiritual fornication due to unholy alliances with earth’s rulers. Neither can any other city rival the blood of both Jews and Christians which pagan Rome and later the Vatican have shed. Thomas Hobbes perceptively said, “The Papacy is…the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof.”

“In the midst of the [70th] week [seven-year tribulation]” (Dan:9:27), Antichrist will forbid further sacrifices, place his image in the temple and demand to be worshiped as God. Israel will object, bringing the armies of the entire world, under Antichrist, against her to effect a “final solution” to the Jewish problem. Accompanied by the saints of all ages in their resurrected and/or glorified bodies, Christ will intervene. Destroying Antichrist and his armies, Israel’s Messiah, at last recognized and accepted by her, will rule the world from David’s throne in Jerusalem.

Such prophecies remain hidden from Israel. The spiritual blindness of the vast majority in that land was both apparent and incomprehensible to those on our recent tour. How true is Christ’s sorrowful pronouncement: “this [rebellious (Ps:78:8), faithless and perverse (Mat:17:17), evil and adulterous (12:39, 16:4), etc.] generation [of vipers (12:34)] shall not pass, till all these things [i.e., all the prophesied signs] be fulfilled” (24:34). Only after all prophesied events have occurred (which must precede and foreshadow the Second Coming), and Christ comes visibly in power and glory to rescue her in the midst of Armageddon, will Israel at last believe (Zec:12:10). Then shall be fulfilled Christ’s words: “he that endureth to the end shall be saved” (Mat:10:22); and Paul’s: “all Israel [that have survived to the end] shall be saved” (Rom:11:26).

How astonishing it is that stubborn unbelief should persistently characterize the descendants of Abraham, the father of the faithful (Rom:4:11-16)!

“[B]lindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles…” (Rom:11:25). More than 30 percent of Israel’s Jews are atheists. Although that figure is high compared with many other countries (10 percent in the USA and Ireland, 20 percent in Italy), it is even higher among kibbutz dwellers. This communal lifestyle of Marxist origins breeds atheism. We were told by our host on a visit to a kibbutz in Galilee that out of 300 kibbutzim throughout Israel only about 15 were “religious,” atheism being the faith of all of the others, including his own.

Politely but pointedly, I asked how Israel could assert any better claim to that land than the Arabs, if God did not give it to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for “an everlasting possession” (Gen:17:8; 48:4; Ex 6:8; Joel:3:2). He had no answer. I then reminded him that Israel’s children study their history from the Bible, and asked how that Book could be 100 percent accurate when it comes to ancient names, places and events and yet 100 percent wrong about the God who its authors claim inspired their writings. Again no answer.

Interviews in the streets for the videos we shot revealed that most Israelis (including even some atheists) do expect the Messiah. Yet they have no biblical understanding of who He might be––or that the prophets said Messiah would be “cut off [killed]” (Isa:53:8; Dan:9:26, etc.) and thereafter Jerusalem and the temple destroyed (9:26)! When asked how they would recognize the Messiah, nearly all responded, “He will bring peace.” What a setup for Antichrist, of whom it is said, “By peace shall [he] destroy many” (Dan:8:25)! Sadly, the worst destruction in Israel’s history, “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer:30:7), lies ahead.

Evidence of the conquering Roman presence from Christ’s day and from Crusader times is found everywhere. Ancient ruins, neglected and even destroyed when the Arabs were in control, are being expertly restored by the Jews. A Roman presence of another nature continues in Israel to this day: the Catholicized “holy” places, where events in Jesus’ life and death allegedly took place. Rome’s presence is seen and felt also in the throngs of Catholic pilgrims who come for the indulgences and special favors from God which they’ve been taught attach to physical places and relics. One has the impression that this land is still theirs. After all, didn’t the Crusaders conquer it for Holy Mother Church?

Each holy place is marked (and marred) by the inevitable church constructed upon it. In these shrines, candles (purchase price depending upon size) burn continuously. Robed priests appear periodically at altars to repeat incantations unknown to Christ and the apostles. Reverently the faithful cross themselves and join in ceremonies believed to convey special grace because performed at a sacred site. Israel needs the money the pilgrims bring. Yet one senses an uneasy truce between Jews, who disown their own who believe in Him, and Catholics, who come to see where Jesus was crucified by Jews, forgetting the Vatican’s long persecution and slaughter of Jesus’ Jewish brethren.

The Christian church, after being granted recognition and freedom by Constantine, soon became the persecutor of all those who did not submit to its doctrines. Like Islam a few centuries later, Christianity was imposed upon the entire populace of Europe under the threat of torture and death. Christ told His disciples that whosoever would be the greatest must be the servant of all. Instead, the popes aspired to be masters of the world. Church and state joined in adulterous partnership to expand the “Holy Roman Empire” by enforcing conversion with the sword.

Persecution of Jews commenced in earnest after the popes, taking advantage of the power vacuum left when the empire fell to the barbarians, began to rule not just as ecclesiastical leaders of the church but as secular kings. Papal armies fought to expand “the Kingdom of God.” The Jews’ plight––in the name of Jesus the Jew–– soon became far more grievous under the alleged Christian church than it had ever been at the hands of pagan rulers. In Vicars of Christ, Jesuit historian Peter de Rosa writes of those early days:

[Catholicism] will become the most persecuting faith the world has ever seen. They will persecute the race from which Peter––and Jesus––sprang…[and] order in Christ’s name all those who disagree with them to be tortured, and sometimes crucified over fire. They will make an alliance between throne and altar; they will insist that…the throne (the state) impose the Christian [Roman Catholic] religion on all its subjects.

A major target of conquest became “the Holy Land,” which had already been claimed by “Saint” Helena. Constantine was the father of the new Church and Helena was honored as its mother. Even before it was conferred upon Mary, the title “Mother of God” was given to Helena as the Emperor’s mother. (Every Roman emperor was worshiped as God.) This “mother of the church” journeyed to the Holy Land to buy relics and to build churches upon alleged sites of key events involving our Lord.

The Roman Catholic Church began to believe it had replaced Israel as God’s chosen people. That land, promised by God to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, now belonged, for new and holier reasons, to “Christian” Rome, the new Zion. The pagan empire had become the Holy Roman Empire, the “Kingdom of God” on earth. The hope of its revival was the dream of all Europe during the Middle Ages––a goal which will be accomplished at last by Antichrist. The revived Roman Empire over which he will rule, with enthusiastic Vatican support as in the past, will encompass the entire world.  [Emphasis added]

Without rancor we must face the facts concerning the Holy Roman Empire to understand what its revival will mean. Pagans had blamed every disaster upon Christians. Now the Church blamed all on the Jews. Accused of causing the Black Death, Jews were rounded up and hanged, burned and drowned by the thousands in revenge. Although now and then a pope sought to ameliorate their condition, there was no place for “Christ crucifiers” in God’s Holy Kingdom. More than 100 anti-Semitic documents were published by the Roman Catholic Church between the sixth and twentieth centuries. Anti-Semitism had become official Church doctrine. To this day, the Vatican has never conceded Israel’s right to exist and wants Jerusalem to be, not in Jewish hands, but under international control.  [Emphasis added]

To raise an army for the First Crusade, Pope Urban II promised instant entrance into heaven without purgatory for all who fell in that great cause. The knights and knaves who responded with enthusiasm to that deceitful promise left a trail of plunder, mayhem, and murder on their way to Jerusalem, where they slaughtered all Arabs and Jews. One of their first acts after their triumphal entry into Jerusalem was to herd the Jews into the synagogue and set it ablaze. On their way to the Holy Land, the Crusaders gave the Jews the choice of baptism or death. De Rosa recounts:

In the year 1096 half of the Jews of Worms were slaughtered as the Crusaders passed through the town. The rest fled to the bishop’s residence for protection. He agreed to save them, on condition that they asked to be baptized. The Jews retired to consider their decision. When the doors of the audience chamber were opened, all 800 Jews inside were dead. Some were decapitated; fathers had killed their babes before turning their knives on their wives and themselves; a groom had slain his bride. The first century tragedy of Masada was repeated everywhere in Germany and, later, throughout France.

Sincere followers of Christ, too, were slain by the hundreds of thousands for attempting to follow the Bible instead of Rome. What these victims suffered from Holy Mother Church is a story sad beyond belief for both persecuted and persecutors. The Inquisitors were caught in a web from which there was no escape, for the papacy did indeed “reign over the kings of the earth.” No doubt many of the zealots who carried out papal decrees were sincere. The civil authorities, moreover, feared excommunication should they fail to fulfill the Inquisitors’ demands. The facts speak volumes.

Heretics (those who felt bound by conscience to follow God’s Word) were committed to the flames because the popes believed that the Bible forbade Christians to shed blood. Victims of the Inquisition exceeded by hundreds of thousands the number of Christians (and Jews) who had been martyred under pagan Roman emperors. Catholic apologists try in vain to absolve their Church of responsibility, arguing that the sentence of death was carried out by civil authorities. Yet this transference to the “secular arm” was required by the Church’s canon law, and at the tribunal where heretics were condemned the Inquisitor’s throne was higher than that of the magistrate. The prisoner was allowed to know neither the charge against him nor the identity of his accusers. No one was ever acquitted. Torture often made the pitiful victims willing to confess to anything. Will Durant reminds us of Pope Clement V’s rebuke of King Edward II’s leniency:

We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land. But no state law can override [the Church's] canon law, our law. Therefore I command you at once to submit those men to torture.

The medieval Inquisition had flourished for centuries when, in 1542, Pope Paul III gave it permanent status as the first of Rome’s Sacred Congregations, the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Inquisition. Known more recently as the Holy Office, its name was changed in 1967 to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith––quite appropriate, inasmuch as public burnings were known as autos-da-fé, or acts of faith. The Office operates today from the Palace of the Inquisition adjacent to St. Peter’s. The Grand Inquisitor is Cardinal Ratzinger, who reports to Pope John Paul II.  [Emphasis added]

Before he became Pope Paul IV in 1555, Inquisitor-General John Peter Carafa had converted a house at his own expense into a fully equipped torture chamber for eliciting confessions from the accused. He denounced any who tolerated heretics and declared, “If my own father were a heretic, I would personally gather the wood to burn him.” During his brief pontificate the population of Rome was decimated almost by half, with Jews the main victims. Under Paul IV, marriage between a Christian and a Jew was punishable by death. Hitler claimed only to be carrying out what the popes and Church councils had already decreed. [Emphasis added]

Paul IV forced Jews to sell their properties, confined them to ghettos, treated them as slaves and reduced them to the status of ragpickers. Pope Gregory XIII declared that the guilt of Jews in rejecting and crucifying Christ “only grows deeper with successive generations, entailing perpetual slavery.”  Later popes, such as Benedict XIV, Pius VII, Leo XII, Pius VIII, Gregory XVI, Pius IX, et al., continued the persecution of Jews. Pope Pius XII knew very well that the Nazis were systematically exterminating Jews. Yet he never spoke a public word against the Holocaust, because to do so would have condemned his own Church. This silence, historians agree, encouraged Hitler and added to the unspeakable genocide.

Jerusalem has its Yad Vashem (Holocaust Museum) to keep ever before the world’s conscience the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler. By contrast, there is no memorial to the untold multitudes of both Jews and Christians murdered by Holy Mother Church and now forgotten. De Rosa reminds us that Pope John Paul II “knows the church was responsible for persecuting Jews, for the Inquisition, for slaughtering heretics by the thousands, for reintroducing torture into Europe as part of the judicial process. But he has to be careful [not to apologize]. The doctrines responsible for those terrible things still underpin his position .” (Emphasis added)   The Vatican has never repented of these crimes against humanity and God. Of these indisputable facts many of today’s evangelical leaders seem willingly ignorant. TBC

source:  http://www.thebereancall.org/content/mystery-babylon-part-i

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Mystery Babylon, Part II

By Hunt, Dave – Aug 1 1993

And in the days of these [ten] kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed….Daniel:2:44

After this I saw…a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible…and it had ten horns….And the ten horns…are ten kings….Daniel:7:7,24

And…behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns….Revelation:12:3

And I…saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns….Revelation:13:1

I saw a woman sit[ting] upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns….And the ten horns…are ten kings….Revelation:17:3, 12

Of all the prophecies in the Bible, Revelation 17 is the most astonishing. It culminates a series of visions of four world empires, the fourth to be revived in the “last days” and ruled by Antichrist through ten subordinate “kings”—a series of visions which began 600 years earlier in Daniel 2 with Nebuchadnezzar’s image. The image’s “head of gold” was the first world empire, the Babylonian; the “breast and arms of silver” pictured the succeeding Medo-Persian Empire; next was the Grecian represented by “belly and thighs of brass”; and finally the “legs of iron, and feet [with ten toes signifying ten kings] part of iron and part of clay” depicted the fourth world empire arising out of Rome.

Daniel’s prophecy (continued in Chapters 7-12) foretold accurate details of coming world empires which we can’t enumerate. Apropos of our subject, however, the image’s two legs foretold the Roman Empire’s division into East and West. And so it happened, first politically; centuries later, religiously. Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy (which in July [1993] again gained control of religion in Russia) remain divided to this day. They will, however, be reunited as the core of Antichrist’s new world religion.

In a second vision, the four world empires were seen as beasts. The fourth had ten horns, representing, like the ten toes on the image, “ten kings” (Dan:7:24) yet to arise. The ancient Roman Empire was never ruled by a coalition of ten kings; yet so it must be when “the God of heaven sets up [his] kingdom.” Thus the Roman Empire must be revived in that form.

God’s millennial kingdom will not (as many are teaching) result from a gradual takeover of the world by the church but through a sudden catastrophic intervention by Christ from heaven. He is the stone “cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet…the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold [were] broken to pieces…and the stone…became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth” (2:34-35). Christ’s sudden intervention at Armageddon is also presented by Paul: “And then shall that Wicked [Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall…destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thes:2:8-10).  The same event is found in Zechariah 12-14, Revelation 19 and elsewhere.

The Bible ignores other empires, some of which have been larger than the four above. Why? They won’t be revived. For centuries the seat of world power was Egypt. There were great dynasties in China, Genghis Khan’s far-ranging Mongolian empire, and vast Mayan and Aztec kingdoms in Central and South America. The Arabs once controlled most of North Africa, the Middle East and much of Europe. These empires will not rise again. The United States has been the dominant industrial and military force for 50 years, but that dominance cannot continue. The prophecies are clear: the Roman Empire will be revived, with Antichrist’s seat in Western Europe and the world religion’s headquarters in Rome.

In addition to the revived Roman Empire, the ten-horned beast also depicts Satan (the “great red dragon”) and a satanically empowered man(Rev:13:4-8)
—the coming world ruler, or Antichrist. Yet it wasn’t so much the sight of this terrifying beast that took John’s breath away, but the woman who was riding him: “ MYSTERY, BABYLON .”  Babylon is not a country but a city (certainly not the United States). Nor is it the city Saddam is rebuilding in Iraq, for that historic Babylon, in ruins for 2,300 years, obviously does not meet the five criteria. Nor are there two Babylons (a spiritual one and a commercial one) shown in Revelation 17 and 18. They are one and the same.

Babylon was built around the ruins of the Tower of Babel, which, we noted in June, represented the false religion of human effort in opposition to salvation by grace through faith in Christ. It was the satanically inspired attempt to establish man as his own God. Babel’s antichrist paganism remained as the unifying factor linking the four successive world empires. And so it must be revived with the Roman Empire.

Like Nimrod at Babel, the Caesars presided over the pagan priesthood and were worshiped as God. All who refused to bow down before the emperor’s image in recognition of his deity were slain––a practice which will be reestablished under Antichrist (Rev:13:8,14-15). Most astonishing of all, “Christianity” must merge with Babel’s antichrist paganism to form the new world religion! That insight was a major reason for John’s amazement.  [Emphasis added]

That a gorgeously clad woman was holding the reins astride such a terrifying, world-devouring beast was incredible. The woman’s identity, however, staggered John far more. Beneath the erotic attire, flashy jewelry and impudent gaze there was a haunting familiarity. It couldn’t be! How had Christ’s chaste bride become this brazen whore? What alchemy had transformed that small, despised flock of humble followers of the Lamb into this notorious prostitute toasting Satan with the blood of the martyrs in a golden cup! How could the church, hated and persecuted by the world, as Christ had said she would be––how could she have become this Machiavellian despot that reigned over the kings of the earth?  [Emphasis added]

History authenticates John’s vision. The blood of the martyrs was the seed of a heavenly minded church without earthly ambition, a church whose members, increased to about 10 percent of the Roman Empire, were oppressed by the world and periodically slaughtered. Then, in AD 313, freedom from persecution came unexpectedly and suddenly under Constantine. Unfortunately, what seemed like a gift from God was a trap laid by Satan. It set the stage for an apostasy that would last more than a millennium––and is now gathering renewed momentum.

When he gave Christianity official status alongside paganism, Constantine, as emperor and “Pontifex Maximus” over the pagan priesthood known as the Pontifical College, became the de facto head of the Christian Church. As such he invented and took the title “Vicar of Christ.” Coming from the Latin vicarius , vicar means “in the place of.” Its Greek equivalent is anti . Thus the popes’ title, “Vicar of Christ,” literally means “Antichrist”—the one who pretends to be Christ. [Emphasis added]

For centuries, Protestant creeds identified the popes as antichrists. That label surely applies to the paganized Christianity over which the popes have presided as Constantine’s successors. Succeeding him also as head of Rome’s Pontifical College, the popes retain to this day the related pagan title “Pontifex Maximus.” Undoubtedly, however, the Antichrist will be the new Constantine—head of the new world order—with the Roman pontiff his right-hand man.  [Emphasis added]

Constantine, the first “Vicar of Christ,” did indeed prove to be an antichrist. Not a genuine Christian, he had no concern for doctrine but only for religious unity in his empire. The original ecumenist, he convened the first Ecumenical Council, the Council of Nicea, in AD 325, set the agenda and presided over it as Charlemagne would over the Council of Chalon 500 years later during his attempt to revive the Roman Empire. Though all such attempts failed, the popes gave the Empire continuity in religion and wielded supreme secular authority as well. Historian R. W. Southern reminds us,  [Emphasis added]

…there was in Rome a single spiritual and temporal authority [the papacy] exercising powers which in the end exceeded those that had ever lain within the grasp of a Roman Emperor.

To John’s utter amazement, he saw that the church Christ had founded would metamorphose into “that city…on seven hills…that rules over the kings of the earth”!  Picture, for example, the humbled emperor Henry IV waiting barefoot in the snows at Canossa to make his peace with Pope Gregory VII in 1077!  As noted last month, no other city in the world except Vatican City “rules over kings” and meets the other four criteria which identify the woman in Revelation 17. In the July 3, 1992 National Catholic Reporter (NCR) a Catholic priest confesses, “The church…was subverted by the ambitions of such men as [Popes] Gregory VII, Innocent III and Boniface VII [and many others] into a politico-ecclesiastical institution wielding totalitarian power in both sacred and secular fields.” Historian Walter James elaborates:

The Papacy controlled the gateway to heaven which all the faithful, including their rulers, hoped earnestly to enter….[I]t gave the Popes a moral authority which has never been wielded since. A Pope like Innocent III held all Europe in his net….

If that seven-headed beast with ten horns, the revived Roman Empire, is to appear, then the “woman” must hold the reins once again. While the Roman Catholic Church, since the Reformation, saw its supreme power challenged, it has regained much. The Vatican is a sovereign state like any nation. It exchanges ambassadors with the world’s nations and participates in international politics. The NCR boasts, “No other church has such privileged access” to top political gatherings.  [Emphasis added]

John Paul II has emerged as the world’s most respected and influential leader. Though papal power is not wielded as overtly as during the Middle Ages, yet the Pope still “rules over the kings of the earth.” Presidents Bush and Gorbachev consulted with the Pope at least once a week. President Reagan solicited the Pope’s help against communism. Using Poland as a base, agents of the Vatican worked with the CIA to bring down communism and the Berlin Wall. These amazing events, Gorbachev later confessed, could not have occurred without John Paul II.

Ecumenism is essential in creating a “Christianity” which embraces all religions. Psychology plays a major ecumenical role by providing common faith, language and ritual for everyone from atheists, cultists and occultists to Roman Catholics and evangelicals. Today the Reformation is seen as a semantic misunderstanding, its vital issues blurred or ignored. There is a growing cooperation between the National Association of Evangelicals and Roman Catholics, according to Jack White, NAE president. Even leading cult experts whitewash Rome’s heresies. Chuck Colson’s (like Billy Graham’s) embrace of Catholicism and acceptance of the Templeton Prize is one more shocking example of the growing ecumenism among evangelical leaders which is preparing the way for Antichrist. (See “Q&A” for further clarification.) Nor could a more apt pope than John Paul II have arrived upon the scene at this crucial hour.  [Emphasis added]

The centuries-long involvement of Roman Catholicism in pagan/occultic practices has led naturally to its present marriage to the New Age. Rome has made it clear that the disciplining of New Age priest Matthew Fox is for failure to submit to the hierarchy but not for his horrendous heresies (“ News Alerts.” ) Fox continues as a priest with a huge following among Catholics. The involvement in Eastern mysticism of tens of thousands of priests, nuns, and laity is condoned by the Vatican.

We have documented the accelerating secular acceptance of New Age “spirituality” such as Nancy Reagan’s obsession with astrology and President Reagan’s submission to astrological guidance and his own superstitions. Matters have only gotten worse with the new administration. Bill and Hillary Clinton’s and Al Gore’s commitment to an amoral, humanistic and New Age agenda is well known. That all three claim to be “Christians” fits the fact that the world religion will be an antichrist “Christianity.”

Time magazine recently had a picture of Hillary Clinton with eyes closed, head reverently bowed, as a North American Indian shaman performed a ritual over her. Concluding a recent speech, Hillary declared, “Let us be willing to remold society by redefining what it means to be a human being in the twentieth century, moving into a new millennium.” Yes, the Clintons intend to “remold society” and to “redefine what it means to be a human being”!

Part of that remolding involves promoting ungodly lifestyles. The consequences are devastating and worsening. Raw statistics condemn the Clintons’ encouragement of homosexuality. The median age of death for married heterosexual men is nearly twice that of homosexuals: 75 compared with 39. Only 1 percent of homosexuals live beyond age 65. The average age of death for married women is 79 compared with 45 for lesbians ( Christian News, 1/13/92). Secular studies have demonstrated that living together before marriage increases the likelihood of divorce––exactly the opposite of what those who engage in “safe sex” imagine ( The Baptist Challenge, 10/92).

Our world is fast ripening for God’s judgment. Consider a simple comparison between the seven leading problems in “Christian” America’s schools in the 1940s and the 1990s. Fifty years ago the worst problems faced by teachers and administrators were 1) talking in class, 2) chewing gum, 3) making noise, 4) running in halls, 5) cutting in line, 6) dress code violations, 7) littering. Today they are 1) drug abuse, 2) alcohol abuse, 3) pregnancy, 4) suicide, 5) rape, 6) robbery, 7) assault. How revealing!

Everywhere youth is bombarded not only with evil but with persuasively presented antichrist philosophies. A recent TV series began with Indiana Jones as a boy in India going to the Theosophical Society to meet founder Annie Besant. There he was introduced to Jidhu Krishnamurti, the “chosen world leader”; he then was taken to various Hindu and Buddhist temples. Christianity was degraded and Jesus was put on the level of all other “religious leaders.” Behold an even more insidious effort by George Lucas to indoctrinate the West into shamanism than even the Star Wars series of films!

Christians face two dangers: 1) becoming so immunized to apostasy that it seems normal and no longer alarming; 2) becoming discouraged and deciding that there is no use in standing up to such overwhelming evil. Yes, the stage is set for Antichrist. He will take over the world. False “Christianity” will deceive billions. The Bible says so. We will not save the world or even America. But we can rescue countless individuals through prayer, godly example and the proclamation of the gospel. Let us do so!  [Emphasis added] TBC

source:  http://www.thebereancall.org/content/mystery-babylon-part-ii

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78 comments to Mystery Babylon

  • Truthful Conversation

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I see the Pope has resigned…interesting.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    TC

    What I find so FUNNY is that I knew this was going to happen over a year ago, yet the Vatican claim ‘SURPRISE’ (they say they had ‘no idea’) errrr… like, really?

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Now, onto the subject of the article.

    Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    I believe that this verse identifies MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, The Great Whore, as THE Mother of ALL Abominations of the earth.

    Now, the Bible clearly identifies Roman Catholicism as being MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, The Great Whore, THE Mother of ALL Abominations of the earth.

    That being established, I find it NOT surprising (as seems to be the case with the author of this article) that Calvinism is nothing more that one of the millions Daughters of the Great Whore.
    Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Calvinism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnessism, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, you-name-it (all the -ism, ALL the abominations of the earth): They all have but one Mother, Mystery, Babylon the Great.

    For example, follow this link to see how Rome started Islam (not an endorsement, use discernment at all times. It might not be all truth, but it only corroborates Rev 17:5. Comic book “The Prophet”
    by Alberto Rivera) http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/0117_allinone.asp

  • Redeemed

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul (Continue in His Word) wrote:

    Now, onto the subject of the article.
    Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.I believe that this verse identifies MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, The Great Whore, as THE Mother of ALL Abominations of the earth.
    Now, the Bible clearly identifies Roman Catholicism as being MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, The Great Whore, THE Mother of ALL Abominations of the earth.
    That being established, I find it NOT surprising (as seems to be the case with the author of this article) that Calvinism is nothing more that one of the millions Daughters of the Great Whore.
    Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Calvinism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnessism, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, you-name-it (all the -ism, ALL the abominations of the earth): They all have but one Mother, Mystery, Babylon the Great.
    For example, follow this link to see how Rome started Islam (not an endorsement, use discernment at all times. It might not be all truth, but it only corroborates Rev 17:5. Comic book “The Prophet”
    by Alberto Rivera) http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/0117_allinone.asp

    All the “isms” listed certainly come from the same source, HOWEVER, there is a MAJOR difference!

    The pagan religions and the cults are much more easily recognized as such. But the error of Calvinism/Reformed is MUCH more subtle and so easily missed by so many. That makes it much more dangerous!

    Even so-called discerners who readily expose false teachers but miss the greater deception of Calvinism/Reformed. They link to and fellowship with share platforms with “discerners” who are Calvinist as if it doesn’t matter!

    The viciousness and rancor and downright hatred that emanates from the Calvinist/Reformed community toward those who question their doctrine is astounding! This is one of the most evil doctrines of all because it contains an element of truth, but damning lies.

    Also, the link to Chick Publications should carry a disclaimer. Some of their tracts are fine, but others are not helpful and even detrimental. There are much better sources.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Yeah I would not trust anything from Chick publications – dodgy dodgy dodgy!

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed wrote:

    Also, the link to Chick Publications should carry a disclaimer. Some of their tracts are fine, but others are not helpful and even detrimental. There are much better sources.

    I was careful to put a disclaimer in (“not an endorsement, use discernment at all times.”) before the link in case you didn’t notice.
    For example, it appears from the comic that Alberto does not believe in the rapture.

  • Redeemed

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul (Continue in His Word) wrote:

    Redeemed wrote:
    Also, the link to Chick Publications should carry a disclaimer. Some of their tracts are fine, but others are not helpful and even detrimental. There are much better sources.I was careful to put a disclaimer in (“not an endorsement, use discernment at all times.”) before the link in case you didn’t notice.
    For example, it appears from the comic that Alberto does not believe in the rapture.

    Paul, anytime anyone gives a link as a reference for the reader, it does not matter if it is stated that it is “not an endorsement”. If a reliable source is not available, we should not send someone to a site that might cause them to stumble. I see some discernment sites that do this and it is risky business.

    You call Deborah to task for printing an article and proceed to pick the author to pieces, but apparently you frequent the Chick site. Looks like a mixed message.

  • Marion

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Oh Carolyn…you are right…about comment #161 leaving you choking; it’s almost unbelievable, isn’t it? [Edited: this comment stems from comments made here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/03/13/dave-hunt-and-the-book-the-power-of-the-spirit/#comments

    Your Scripture reference, Matt. 13:27-31 I would agree with in this…we cannot KNOW who the true wheat is; those who we may think of as tares, might actually be weak wheat. When it comes to preachers/teachers/prophets, we have, however, been given guidelines for discerning those who would work evil amongst us, wolves, and wolves in sheep’s clothing. These seem to me to be somewhat different.

    Unfortunately, there are those who obviously think I wrote what I did lightly. Not so…it is with a heart filled with grief, born from a journey from deception through the shock and horror of the truth, which has given way over the past 3 years to righteous anger; knowing others must be warned. I have clearly seen SOME of the devils schemes and tactics and am burdened to share those things with the brethren, out of love for them, and our ONLY Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. So allow me to share where this has all come from.

    My story: Three and one/half years ago, I read Roger Oakland’s “Faith Undone” and Warren Smith’s “A Wonderful Deception.” GOD used these books of “false teachers” to open my eyes to the deception that had worked it’s way into my church’s and my own life…Rick Warren and “The Purpose Driven Life.” It was these books that showed the extensive, behind the scenes alliances of various “christian” groups with the new age and other anti-christ ideologies….causing me to ask, “what’s going on here?” I did my own checking and was able to confirm the facts of what these men had reported. I asked the Lord, “how did this happen?” (will answer that later – it is the place of safety) I was in a deep depression for three months. When the Lord rescued me from my despair, I began to wonder about those whose preaching/books, etc. had influenced my Christian life. I researched them all and did LOTS of reading…and was shocked to find they were all corrupt…finding one, led to another, and another and another…the utter shock and overwhelming depth of deception only led to more and more digging…of all kinds. Here’s an example…David Jeremiah (CNP), (Brannon Howse worldview weekend speaker), pastor of Shadow Mountain Community Church (previously pastored by Tim LaHaye (CNP) http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.com/2009/11/david-jeremiah-and-his-all-seeing-eye.html

    Due to some bewildering email exchanges with Roger Oakland, I realized I was “trusting” him, and had never “looked into” him. Who is he…really? (I asked him, and never got an answer) I had neglected to look into the very ones who were doing the “warning” because they were the “good guys”…right? I thought I was beyond being surprised by anything…I was wrong. In November 2011 who Roger was became apparent, as well as Michael Hoggard, another deceiver (these are documented on Deb’s site under the Roger Oakland tag). No one knows the agony I suffered, as night and day, I sought the Lord and with horror, continued to research. To sarcastically comment that perhaps I had never been mistaken or deceived was an unexpected blow, especially from one who I’m sure has suffered through the same horrors that research brings, as we not only learn ourselves, but consider the impact on the thousands of lost and saved alike! I have merely shared with others the heart-wrenching research I have done, birthed from a place of deep pain, shock, and yes, HUMILITY. Without humility we cannot know the truth…this begins with admitting our weakness, error and sin before a Holy God, and asking “is this possibly true…have I been deceived?” “please show me the truth”…a good and Holy God, who THEN…is able to cleanse, and GRACIOUSLY and TENDERLY teach and rebuild…because upon my firm foundation of Jesus Christ, there had been many that I had allowed to “build” into my life.

    The Apostle Paul said, “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    Also OF YOUR OWN selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
    Therefore WATCH, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn EVERY ONE NIGHT AND DAY with tears.” (Acts 20:29-31) (caps mine)

    I ask this…if that was the danger to the church, in it’s infancy…just WHAT do we think the enemy has been able to accomplish in 2000 years? Yes, Carolyn…the reality of it all is absolutely MIND-NUMBING!

    You ask, “Is there any one left to listen to?” After Paul’s warning, here’s what he said:
    “And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the WORD OF HIS GRACE, WHICH IS ABLE TO BUILD YOU UP, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.” (Acts 20:32) (caps mine)

    We are deceived because we esteem the words of men ABOUT the Bible above or even, instead of, the Word of God alone.
    Why are “worldview” conferences able to deceive? If we want a “Christian worldview”, all we need to do is open our Bibles. But God’s people have become a lazy people, preferring to be spoon-fed…by men…and we don’t REALLY know who they are. There are no shortage of those who presume to want to tell Christians how to think and what to believe. This is dangerous. Those held out as “godly” teachers of the word, may not be…that pronouncement cannot be made, save by the great Judge and God our Father. But we have been given ways that we may find out WHO desires to teach (and lead) us, and we MUST BEWARE. We are told many times in the Word of God…”be not deceived.”

    Where can we learn? I can share what the Lord has shown me, something we all know, really:
    (caps mine)
    “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not LIVE by bread alone, BUT BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the MOUTH OF GOD.” (Matt 4:4)

    “THY word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psalm 119:105)

    “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
    But HIS DELIGHT is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate DAY and NIGHT.
    And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.” (Psalm 1:1-4)

    Peter exhorts us:
    “AS newborn babes, DESIRE the sincere milk OF THE WORD, that ye may grow thereby;
    IF so be ye have tasted that THE LORD IS GRACIOUS.” (1 Peter 2:2-3)

    In 2 Tim 3 Paul talks about the perilous times coming in the last days.
    After he warns…”But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.” (2Tim. 3:13)
    He says, “But continue thou in the things which thou has learned and has been assured of, knowing of whom thou has learned them;
    And that from a child thou HAST KNOWN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS:
    That the man of God MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED unto good works.” (2 Tim. 3:14-17)

    Jesus said, “Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
    And she had a sister called Mary, which ALSO SAT AT JESUS’ FEET, and HEARD HIS WORD.
    BUT Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to hm, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
    And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou are careful and troubled about many thingas:
    BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL; AND MARY HEATH CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM HER.” (Luke 10:38-42)

    May we be able to say with Jeremiah, “THY WORDS were found, and I did eat them; and THY WORD was unto me the JOY AND REJOICING OF MINE HEART: for I am called by THY NAME, O LORD God of hosts.” (Jer. 15:16)

    PS…may I share something else I’ve learned? Since I’ve asked the Lord to show me the places I have been deceived, with error taught by men, He has been faithful. May I encourage you…take a look at EVERYTHING you have been taught and think you KNOW regarding your faith in Jesus Christ. SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES ALONE! Apart from the sure foundation of the true gospel, EVERYTHING ought be open to re-examination in light of the millennia of deception at work. We have been taught to see the Scriptures through various templates which are not Scriptural, or to divide the word in ways that are not “rightly.” We ALL have been taught LIES. I am not about to share any of what I’ve uncovered; some teachings have been affirmed…others…not so much; the understanding of MANY things, is quite honestly…WRONG. There is much “unravelling” to do, and I do not have all the answers packaged up neatly and tied with a bow; anyone who thinks they do, is seriously mistaken. I seek only God’s truth, and from Him alone. In fact, the unravelling, has only led to more questions…which I take to Him, and in His time…understanding comes.
    (hint: “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” is not the Roman Catholic Church…study out the words, “harlot, harlots, harlot’s, whore, whoredoms”…Rev. 17:18 says “she” is a city…”she” is not Rome…what do you see?…you will be puzzled…you will have more questions…as do I)

    “I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that NO LIE is of the truth. (1 Jn. 2:21) (think Law, Boehme)

    “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is TRUTH, and is no LIE, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. ” (1 Jn. 2:27)

    “And we know that we are of God, AND THE WHOLE WORLD LIETH IN WICKEDNESS.
    And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may KNOW him that is true, and we are IN HIM that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1Jn. 5:19-20)

    “But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
    Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
    And of some have compassion, making a difference:
    And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
    Now UNTO HIM THAT IS ABLE to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    To the ONLY WISE GOD our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.” (Jude 20-25)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion

    >> (hint: “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” is not the Roman Catholic Church…study out the words, “harlot, harlots, harlot’s, whore, whoredoms”…Rev. 17:18 says “she” is a city…”she” is not Rome…what do you see?…you will be puzzled…you will have more questions…as do I)

    Really??? So who do you claim it is then? I am interested to hear this because I know there are people who claim otherwise…

  • Marion

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs…regarding Mystery Babylon…do the study…see what you find. GOD through the prophets, is the one who CLEARLY states who “she” is. If the voice from heaven says, “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” (Rev. 18:4-5)…then SURELY it is important for us to recognize her. No?

    It is understandable how the RCC and Rome can be mistaken for “her”, and that is where we have been “taught” to look.

    I say, it is past time for God’s people, in light of EXTENSIVE corruption and deception, to forget “teachers”, and to search out these matters for themselves in the Scriptures ALONE. You are asking me for answers…instead of looking for yourself…do the study…it’s a small one, will take no time at all. What do YOU see?

    We are exhorted to “Study to shew thyself approved UNTO GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth.” (2 Tim. 2:15)(caps mine)

    I will give more Scripture to look into…for those who bother to seek for themselves and see what is there…but no answers…I’m still searching myself. You say, “I know there are people who claim otherwise…” I no longer care what “people” claim. I am only interested in shewing myself approved unto God. I seek the truth, and will stand alone, if no one join me.

    Believe me (or not)…we have ALL been massively deceived…and don’t even see it. STUDY!

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Is Marion saying that “she”, the city, is THE CITY that everyone of us reading this is, by now I suppose, having in mind?
    Please explain Marion. Explain. I too am interested to hear this.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    We know that Babylon is present day Irak (or part of it)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion

    I do not need to do a study to find out that it’s not, as I know for a fact (THROUGH STUDY) it’s the Vatican and all it’s worth, are you implying it’s JERUSALEM? Because there is a terrible false gospel out there that stipulates just this.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Surely Rome or the Vatican or litteral Babylon are not mentioned in Bible prophecy as “whore” or “harlot”.

    From my search, the OT prophecy that seems closest to the whore of Rev 17 is Nahum 3:4:
    —–
    Nah 3:4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.
    Nah 3:5 Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame.
    Nah 3:6 And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock.
    Nah 3:7 And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence shall I seek comforters for thee?
    Nah 3:8 Art thou better than populous No, that was situate among the rivers, that had the waters round about it, whose rampart was the sea, and her wall was from the sea?
    Nah 3:9 Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength, and it was infinite; Put and Lubim were thy helpers.
    Nah 3:10 Yet was she carried away, she went into captivity: her young children also were dashed in pieces at the top of all the streets: and they cast lots for her honourable men, and all her great men were bound in chains.
    —–
    Now, we know that Nahum prophesies on Nineveh (Nah 1:1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.)

    Marion: Is it Nineveh? What is present day Nineveh?

    Other “cities” that are called “whore” or “harlot” in OT prophecies are Jerusalem, Tyre, Samaria, Judah and Israel.
    (I thought if I would add Babylon to this list, that would make exactly 7 “cities”. We know that the whore sits on seven mountains)

    P.S.

    The Lord recently opened my eyes to see that my Gravatar was promoting Intel Corp, who by the way just joined ranks with other major corporations to pressure the US Supreme Court to Constitutionalize the so-called marriage for sodomites (see

    Therefore I had to change the Gravatar image I’ve been using for more than 17 years. Thank you Lord for your patience in leading us into truth.

  • Redeemed

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    John Chingford has posted this to his section on YouTube regarding Revelation 17. This is most interesting and fully answers the question as far as I am concerned.

  • Carolyn

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Just some thoughts:

    @ Redeemed : Mystery Babylon….excellent video on the Great Whore by John Chingford. There are other possibilities, one being America…which I submit for consideration: [EDIT: URL REMOVED]

    I think that Rome embodies the ecumenical, religious aspect of Mystery Babylon but there is the political/economic (merchants of the earth, seaports, etc) that doesn’t fit the Vatican.

  • Marion

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed, Carolyn and John…Regarding the statement, “Mystery Babylon….excellent video on the Great Whore by John Chingford. There are other possibilities, one being America…which I submit for consideration.”

    It needs to be addressed that the video by John, who rightly condemns the idea of the Bible containing “codes” in the works of others…claims in that video that the book of Revelation uses “codes, ” amongst other devices to get the message across. Surely, we can agree that the use of symbolism is present, but not “codes.” I do not believe that the Apostle John, who had been boiled in oil and survived and was exiled to Patmos, would shrink from declaring the plain truth of God as it was revealed to him; fearing man and death was “not his thing.”

    When God issues the command to “come out of her. (“that great city” Rev. 17:18; the great whore, Mystery Babylon, Rev. 17: 4-6) my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” (Rev. 18:4); I believe it is understood that His people will know who that is…because she has been identified in SCRIPTURE. This is a command that God expects us to obey…we can’t be guessing!

    There are claims of Rome and even American has been submitted for consideration. Rather than looking on “appearances”, kindly show me ANY SCRIPTURE that backs up these theories. “She” is identified in Scripture…which I had challenged the readers to find. But, rather than being a “workman that needeth not be ashamed” and “rightly dividing the word of TRUTH”…you have directed God’s people to the works and opinions of men, no matter the sincerity of the effort; this is not what the Bereans were commended for. Let me say, I do believe Rome/papacy is a primary player in this end-time drama…beast/anti-christ, possibly…but Rome (RCC) CANNOT be the “beast kingdom” AND the “whore”…the “beast” destroys the “whore” (Rev. 17:16).

    DO THE STUDY…look up, in context, through the Scriptures, “harlot”, “harlot’s”, “whore”, “whoredoms” “adultery”…WHAT DO YOU SEE? The Scriptures tell us plainly…there are no secrets.

    Here are a few other important Scriptures to get you started.

    Revelation17 through 19:3
    Ezekiel chapter 8
    Ezekiel chapter 16
    Jeremiah 2 – 3:3
    and finally…what did Jesus say?….
    Luke 13:34-35

    What do the Scriptures say?

    BTW…doing a short study of the phrase “that great city” or “the great city” in the book of Revelation…is…a revelation!

    Once you’ve done the research, I’m willing to talk about it.
    I’m not here to give anyone answers or my opinion, or tell you what I’ve found; but to encourage all to get into the Word, yourself – the answers ARE there! When you see it, it will encourage you to keep on digging; have your own mind convinced by the Word and the Spirit, rather than being “children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Eph. 4:14)…children are “spoon-fed”. Sometimes, answers will only create more questions, whereby if you dig, you will find those answers as well. Some may not bother, convinced they know it all and can’t possibly STILL be deceived about anything; that is sad…(so I thought at one time also)…because “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” (James 4:6b) Those who seek the truth will find the treasure they are looking for.

    ENJOY your time in the Word!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion

    So it’s clear that you see Jerusalem as being a whore, the harlot, the ‘she’ of Revelation. I asked you this before and you refused to answer me, because I know where you are going with this.

    Tell me, is Jerusalem going to be totally destroyed during the tribulation? Is God going to destroyed Jerusalem (His Holy City) with fire from heaven the same way He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? (Revelation 18:18; 16:17-21)

    Revelation 18:9-19
    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

  • Redeemed

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I feel the need to correct something that I must have not make clear. The video I mentioned posted to Youtube was not BY John Chingford, but POSTED there by him. I am not sure who the gentleman is in the video.

    I thought he backed up what he said with Scripture.

    Marion, I will take a closer look as you suggested, but I do believe that not all is revealed to us and some things will remail a mystery until they are unveiled. What we need to know will be evident to the discerning.

  • Redeemed

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion, I have read the scriptures you listed. But they only create a bigger question because they seem to be lifted out of context and selected to specifically drive your obvious point that Jerusalem is harlot of Revelation.

    And your final reference to the words of Jesus truly reveal the inaccuracy of your view.
    He was speaking of Jerusalem, but it was a different time, not current history. Jerusalem is a city precious to the Lord. He instructs us to pray for peace there. Yes, He has allowed it to be utterly destroyed by invading forces, but that does not support the view that Jerusalem is the city of Revelation 17.

    There are factions today who make Israel out to be a villain and their hands are certainly not clean, but they are not the ones who are the aggressors, but rather the defenders against the foes who are killing masses of people.

    How do you interpret Ezekiel 16: 60-63?

    Is the lens through which you view the history of God’s dealing with His people dispensational or otherwise? Marion, that is an important key.

    I fail to comprehend how a study of the Scriptures can lead one to narrow their scope when the entire world is involved with many nations and certainly the blasphemies of the Roman Catholic Church far outweigh those of the Jewish people as rebellious as they have been throughout history. Have you studied the bloody history of Rome and considered the vast influence she holds in not only the religious world, but the economic as well?

    I realize I have not been as throrough in the response as I would like, but time constraints don’t permit me to go deeper at this point.I am certainly not a Bible scholar or teacher, but certain things are clear to me. But hopefully this has raised enough to chew on for a bit.

  • Carolyn

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion, please listen. There are many Bible centred teachers who have also studied and prayerfully considered what they are teaching. The moment we become isolated, separating ourselves for special revelation is the moment we become fair game for deceiving spirits. Check out some of the cult leaders and cult followers who have been convinced by autonomous revelation and you will see that they thought themselves above other Christians because of special divine wisdom or revelation. We compare, we humble ourselves, we pray and we discern truth. Even you are developing your own brand of strange teachings, teachings by man/woman by what you are suggesting. Get back to the word in context and fellowship with other believers. No man/woman is an island. Accepting our own propensity to error is the first step in the right direction.

  • Redeemed

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn wrote:

    Just some thoughts:
    @ Redeemed : Mystery Babylon….excellent video on the Great Whore……There are other possibilities, one being America…which I submit for consideration: [EDIT: URL REMOVED]

    YIKES! Carolyn, I went to this article and then to the Redmoon Rising site referenced. WHAT A BUNCH OF BUNK – CRAZINESS! I would hate to see anyone go to this link – Debs, I would disable the hyperlink. They are into all kinds of weird stuff – books about the 2nd coming of the antichrist – healing rooms, it goes on and on. Speaking of healing rooms, this is something that our own personal physician, a well-meaning compassionate Christian promotes to his patients.

    Their hypothesis that the U.S. is Babylon I have heard before from others and after looking into them and their sites, they are kooks. I would not suggest anyone seriously consider that opinion. Not saying that the U.S. does not have a role, but this is global and the power of the U.S. is dwindling, rather than increasing.

    There are many things in Revelation that are not clear and we have to trust the Lord that He reveals only what we really need to know. Perhaps he wants us to keep our focus on the truths that are so clear in the Word and just know that there will be strange things come upon the earth and leave it at that. There is a tendency to get caught up in signs and wonders and the website referenced is a wide portal to same.

    Carolyn, your rebuke to Marion was well said about special revelation. Without rightly dividing the Word, one can get off on tangents that are harmful and not helpful. Our main concern should be holding fast to the truth, snatching people from the fire and sharing the Gospel, knowing the time is short and keeping uppermost in our minds the imminent return of our Lord. These are indeed perilous times.

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Hi Redeemed, Carolyn, Marion et al.

    Just to clarify. The video I posted was NOT my video. I do not know who the speaker is. Probably 90 plus % I agree with everything he said. My only reservation is some of his choice of words, such as “codes”. However, the purpose of the video was to illustrate that the Roman organisation IS the whore mentioned in Revelation NO QUESTION. The article in which I posted the link to that video went to great lengths to prove this. The video was just placed within the article to support the argument.

    You can read the evidence why the Catholic church fulfils the whole of scripture OT and NT within these links:

    [removed] As well as the 2 videos shown on that article please check out the other 2 links contained within it.

    Please also check out this other article which goes to big lengths to illustrate how ONLY Rome satisfies FULLY all the prophesies about the whore [removed]

  • Carolyn

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed…Babylon is Satan’s system of religion that rules the world’s economic and political spheres. Always has. The many faces of the Isis, has shown up worldwide with the same face, different names…today in the world nothing is as it seems so it will be difficult to see all the details until prophecy is fulfilled…then we’ll see just how accurate it really was. So what is the city that get’s burned? Don’t know for sure, but New York seems a good possibility from my perspective…but that’s a topic for another day.

    Ya…everyone and everything seems to be connected to the absurd, the weird and the apostate or the bad, the good and the ugly. If we go anywhere on the internet, we must have our guard up. Everything must be carefully assessed in the light of Scripture.

    My caution to Marion was because I care about her. We are all gullible sheep needing to be reminded that the wolves are circling and the deceptive spirits are waiting to guide. It takes a lifetime to learn and discern. There are no fast tracks to the Christian walk of faith. No special conduits of revelation except false ones. God guides those who patiently seek him, endure through hardship and faithfully follow Him in Spirit and in Truth.

  • Marion

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn, Redeemed…I’m glad you took the time to do some reading.
    However your claim that Scripture was taken out of context to prove a point is erroneous. These were only SOME Scriptures. There are many…did you do the harlot study? What we are to do is not just look around the world around us to define Scripture…i.e. Catholic Church/Rome/Papacy. But we are to compare Scripture with Scripture. The Bible is truth and prophecy from beginning to end. It is a complete picture of the will and work of God…it is not a “divided” work. There is CONTINUITY! There are CONNECTIONS!

    ALSO your charge of “special revelation” is false…I clearly stated that I was merely studying out the Scripture…ALL of Scripture. I receive no “special revelation” and have never claimed to have.

    Notice the ideas, themes, words, descriptors of the verses below; they are connected…even across time, from Old Testament through the New. They cannot be denied or ignored. However, they can, through sophistry be explained away. I prefer to allow the Word to speak; for Scripture to DEFINE Scripture:

    Jesus said, “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
    And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them IN THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS.
    Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which KILLED THE PROPHETS.
    Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    Wherefore behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them YE SHALL KILL and CRUCIFY; and SOME OF THEM SHALL YE SCOURGE IN YOUR SYNAGOGUES, AND PERSECUTE them from city to city.
    That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the BLOOD of RIGHTEOUS Abel unto the BLOOD of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom YE SLEW between the temple and the altar.
    Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, THOU THAT KILLEST THE PROPHETS, AND STONEST THEM WHICH ARE SENT UNTO THEE, how often would I have gathered thy children together , even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not?
    Behold, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE.
    For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Matt 23:29-39)

    When Jesus said, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which KILLEST THE PROPHETS, AND STONEST THEM THAT ARE SENT UNTO THEE, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brook under her wings, and ye would not? Behold, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 13:34-35) (caps mine)

    can you not see that He was talking about MYSTERY Babylon who is described here…

    “And the woman was arryed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
    And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
    And I saw the woman DRUNKEN with the BLOOD OFF THE SAINTS, and WITH THE BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS OF JESUS:…”(Rev. 27:4-6a) (caps mine in verse 6)

    Again in Rev. …for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS; for God hath AVENGED YOU ON HER.” (Rev. 18:19b-20) (caps mine)

    …”for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And IN HER was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, AND OF SAINTS, AND OF ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.” (Rev. 19:23b-24) (caps mine)

    “And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory , and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    For true and righteous are his judgments: for HE HEATH JUDGED THE GREAT WHORE, WHICH DID CORRUPT THE EARTH WITH HER FORNICATION, and hath AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS SERVANTS AT HER HAND.” (Rev. 19:1-30) (caps mine)

    There are not verses used out of context…remember I said to read IN CONTEXT…BUT…these snippets are pulled out to emphasize the fact that the Scripture expose Jerusalem as the harlot is what the Scriptures are teaching, by it’s very clear and precise use of word and descriptors; these Scriptures and related and connected.

    In Jeremiah’s words from the Lord directed to Jerusalem (Jer 2:2), the Lord has Jeremiah tell “her”…”Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou has not been lien with. In the ways has thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou has polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
    Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and THOU HADST A WHORE’S FOREHEAD, thou refusedst to be ashamed.” (Jer. 3:2-3) Please DO read the rest of the chapter…

    NOWHERE in Scripture is any other CITY (notice the great whore is a city – Rev. 17:18) said to have a “harlot’s forehead.”
    NOWHERE in Scripture is Rome called (identified) a harlot.
    NOWHERE in Scripture is any other city held responsible and condemned for the blood of the prophets and ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH.

    Rather than studying out the Scriptures regarding these matters, your argument falls back on “men” and the “dispensational” viewpoint and teachings. In my Christian experience I have been “brought up” in the “dispensational tradition.” BUT dispensationalism is a man-made system for dividing the Scriptures, which is not infallible…it was NOT given to us by God as truth in His Scriptures… and ALL of Christiandom has been taught to use this “system” and this “method of interpretation” to “divide the Word of truth”…I do not rely on this or any other “template” through which I am “told” I “ought to” “interpret Scripture.” Your comments imply that The Holy Spirit is not adequate to enlighten the people of God. I believe in the sufficienty of Scripture to enable one to have understanding through the simple reading, and comparing Scripture with Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit. If you would like to prove me wrong…please do so…with SCRIPTURE…not the words, ideas, or systems of men, whose teachings have spread like leaven, which have been accepted without question.

    It was while seeking end-time understanding, and not simply reading Revelation, that I went to the Old Testament for clarity. Each “testament” sheds light upon the other. How many of us have been “taught” to more or less disregard the Old Testament as relevant for us in this “age of grace?” Hence, we can only put together some of the “puzzle” when some of the pieces are “not so important”…we then will never see the “whole picture.”

    BESIDES…IS it such a stretch that Jerusalem is the “whore” and will be destroyed? (there is a “new” one waiting in the heavens – Rev. 21) After all, the anti-christ shall deceive many upon the earth, so much so, that the Jews will see him as their long-awaited “messiah”…AND…just WHERE is he going to set up that kingdom do you suppose? He will USE Jerusalem and then he will be used to destroy her (just another of her idolatries…having rejected the TRUE Messiah for another) (Rev. 17:16)

    AGAIN…do your own study…we MUST put aside and examine EVERYTHING we thought we knew, and see if it is so.
    Study out throughout the Scriptures, “harlot”, “harlot’s”, “whore”, “whoredom/s”, even “adultery”.
    Study out in the Book of Revelation, “the great city”, “that great city”.

    Forget what all the “they” say…
    WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURES???

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Hi Carolyn,

    You said “I think that Rome embodies the ecumenical, religious aspect of Mystery Babylon but there is the political/economic (merchants of the earth, seaports, etc) that doesn’t fit the Vatican.”

    Why would it not fit the Vatican? It actually more-so fits the Vatican than any other nominees. Just do a google maps search on “vatican city” and notice how very close it is to the Sea. It is closer to the sea than Jerusalem is, much closer to the sea than Babylon is, or any other suggested country. It PERFECTLY fits the description of:

    “For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.” Rev 18:17-19

    If you look at the map, you can easily visualise the merchants of the sea clearly seeing the smoke of the vatican city rising up, as they look from their ships.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion

    >> BESIDES…IS it such a stretch that Jerusalem is the “whore” and will be destroyed? (there is a “new” one waiting in the heavens – Rev. 21) After all, the anti-christ shall deceive many upon the earth, so much so, that the Jews will see him as their long-awaited “messiah”…AND…just WHERE is he going to set up that kingdom do you suppose? He will USE Jerusalem and then he will be used to destroy her (just another of her idolatries…having rejected the TRUE Messiah for another) (Rev. 17:16)

    Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? Just asking. Because they too believe the Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem and they too believe it’s not such a big stretch of the imagination to think so because there is a NEW one waiting in the heavens.

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Hi Marion

    In your study, did you notice that Nineveh was ALSO called “the great City”?

    Jonah 1:2
    Jonah 3:2
    Jonah 4:11

    Whenever scripture repeats something 3 times it is usually because an important point is being made. What is God telling us? God is surely showing that a gentile City can also be considered as great. Nineveh was similar to Nimrod and his kingdom and was the centre of idolatry and mystery religion (received from Babylon). It was a symbol of God’s future judgement of a similar type set up of a city (country) based on pagan worship. Nineveh was spared because of repentance, but the whore of Revelation will NOT be spared. There is no other country existing nor ever has been that has been birthed in idolatry such as the Vatican City (which has actually been given recognition as a separate country in its own right and is (as I am informed) the eighth hill of Rome, but part of Rome.

    The Vatican City is clearly an illustration of the “great City” Nineveh.

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion,

    You said:

    “”for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And IN HER was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, AND OF SAINTS, AND OF ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.” (Rev. 19:23b-24) (caps mine)”

    Please advise when Jerusalem was EVER responsible for “ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH”. But ….. The Catholic institution DOES DOES DOES fulfil those words throughout the dark ages. Please do not just read part of verses or passages but pleae consider EVERYTHING within the verses. If a part of it does not qualify Jerusalem then you cannot apply any of it to Jerusalem.

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    cont….

    Besides, Jesus said “you will not see me again UNTIL you say “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”. Many books of the Bible (a large study all of its own) state that a time will come when Israel will be restored as a nation and its people “look upon me whom they have pierced and mourn for HIM”.

    Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Romans 9-11 ALL talk about this time when the time of the GENTILES comes to an end and the Jews receive their messiah. Jesus stated the word “UNTIL” meaning that there WILL be a time when the inhabitants of Jerusalem WILL repent. Jesus never said that Jerusalem would be destroyed eternally. In fact the OT tells that there will be a “desolation of many generations” for Jerusalem and Israel BUT that it would rise again in latter times. We are never told that the whore of Revelation will EVER be restored again.

    The Bible is full of promises by God that He will NEVER fully reject His people but would FINALLY restore them fully by His mercy.

    Therefore, it is nonsensical (Scripturally speaking) to draw any conclusion that the verses in Revelation are referring to Jerusalem’s destruction. However, context will show that Vatican city (like Nineveh) DOES have all the hallmarks of a gentile great city.

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Matrion,

    One other thing:

    Mystery Babylon is referring to Babylonic religion which is a religion of mysticism, codes, symbolism and mysteries with hidden messages. When the people were spread globally after the dividing of tongues (at Babel) they spread this mystery religion whereever they went. It showed up in Babylon, Persia, Greece and then in Rome. Finally this mystery religion became “christianised” through the gnostics (followers of that religion).

    Paul had to warn the (Jewish and gentile) church that the “mystery of iniquity” was ALREADY at work amongst them, 2 thes 2:7

    Jerusalem nor Israel has EVER been likened to the Babylonic Mystery religion. Whereas, the Catholic Institution is DEFINITELY linked to “mystery religion” following “christianised” Babylonic pagan worship.

  • Marion

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs…a JWb..hahaha…NOOOOOOO way! (I’m not up on their theology, don’t know, or care, what they think about anything – to tell you the truth).

    Carolyn…you said, “Babylon is Satan’s system of religion that rules the world’s economic and political spheres. Always has.”

    However, Scripture says “she” is “that great city.” I would be able to see Rome/Vatican/Papacy as the “beast” system comprised of kings, etc., per Rev. 17.

    John…you are correct about the references to Ninevah also being referred to as “the great city”, obviously there were several cities in Biblical times known to be “great”…

    BUT…WHAT one “great city” is referred to THROUGHOUT the Book of Revelation?…esp. Rev. 11:7-8, speaking of the 2 witnesses (see full context from verse 1-14); “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.” I ask…WHAT CITY IS THAT?

    You ask, “Please advise when Jerusalem was EVER responsible for “ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH” BTW…I didn’t say it…God did in the OT Scriptures posted above, and Jesus did in the NT Scriptures, also posted above, and it was repeated by the angel in Revelation, as well as the “great voice of much people n heaven” (Rev. 19:1-3).

    It can be said, yes, that the Catholic church has fulfilled such a bloody bill as well, and couldn’t we also say those devoted to Islam…so then…IF SCRIPTURE identifies Jerusalem as the one from whence all this came, might we need to examine the origins of just such religions (I said everything for me is on the table to look into…please let us all look together and continue this discussion}.

    Since, as the Spirit of God revealed to Ezekiel the idolatry and abominations in the temple at Jerusalem in Ezekiel chapter 8…

    let’s not forget God’s repeated judgments against Jerusalem for her “whoredomes” and “idolatries” throughout all of her history…that He might bring her back in repentance…(I’ve been in the OT mostly for the past year, studying the history of “Israel”, her judgments and her rebellion – sometimes she repented…sometimes not, and the resulting judgment upon Jerusalem and many of her cities.)

    we need to recall where that “sun worship” came from…their captivity initially in Egypt, reinforced in Babylon…(the great “mystery” is that Babylon would be present in the temple of the Lord!) In fact, the Word of God tells us that this worship of the false gods by the people of God began in the wilderness, after God’s great deliverance of them from Egypt. This can be found in Acts 7:34-53…please read).

    Move ahead centuries…Jesus came, fulfilling the prophecies of the promised Messiah…the religious leaders rejected Him, inciting the masses (except for the disciples) to call for His death. Who did Jesus say these Pharisees were, and what did He say to them? “Ye SERPENTS, ye generation of VIPERS, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (Matt. 23:33) “YE are of your FATHER the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a MURDERER from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a LIAR and the father of it.” (John 8:44) (caps mine)

    Afterward, came the persecution of the Christians starting with the death of Stephen. In the early church, Paul taught that…”And that because of FALSE BRETHREN unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us INTO BONDAGE:” (Gal. 2:4)

    Who might these “false brethren” be? Jesus said to the angel of the church in Smyrna, “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which SAY THEY ARE JEWS, AND ARE NOT, but are the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN.” (Rev. 2:9) (caps mine)…and He said to the angel of the church in Philadelphia, “Behold, I will make them of the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, which SAY THEY ARE JEWS, and ARE NOT, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.” (Rev. 3:9)…remember the vision of Ezekiel 8…the goings on in the temple…WOW…take a good look at Ezek. 22:17-31…in fact, a reading of the Book of Ezekiel is well worth it!

    “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: BUT HE IS A JEW, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and NOT in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Rom. 2:28-29) (caps mine). The synagogue of Satan was comprised of the unbelieving Jews.

    These are the ones which the Apostle Paul warned, “For I know this, that after my departing shall GRIEVOUS WOLVES enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    Also of your OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
    Therefore WATCH, and REMEMBER, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.” (Acts 20:29-31) The “ravening wolves” are also mentioned in the Ezek. 22:17-31 passage above, as well.

    Did not these false brethren, grievous wolves try to bring their pagan, idolatrous ways into the true church of God?…BUT those who KNEW the Word – the truth – rejected them…BUT…what of those who accepted this “paganized ‘christianity'” or should we say “christianized ‘paganism'”? (I don’t know) We can see the results in the Roman Catholic Church and all the other falsely called ‘christian” sects and cults; i.e. Christmas/Easter, just to name a few! THESE are the daughters of the “harlot.” However, I believe out of this infiltration, in order that Christianity might be destroyed, at the least, corrupted…the RCC “system” is the beast that arose from this…it being a socio/political/religious “system,”(a kingdom diverse, different from the rest, told of in Daniel…a kingdom not just political). However, this is my thinking, which could be wrong, and as you can see, I have no Scripture to support the RCC being the “beast” or the “anti-christ.” It does appear to be so, but NOT the “harlot”…the identity of the harlot is clearly supported by Scripture, as I have laid out.

    SO THEN…might it be understood, that the roots of all the false systems that have spread out and about Christianity are JERUSALEM?…Old Testament and New Testament,as the prophets and Jesus have said?

    Again, this is not “special revelation” in any way. When I asked God, in humility to show me what lies I have believed and to show me the truth, acknowledging that I (as all) am vulnerable to deception, because He has warned us so…it was through the study of the Word of God…HE opened up His word to me, and showed me much (and continues…as there is MUCH deception in the churches)…this is not “special revelation”…this is called “answers to prayers.”

    STILL PRAYING!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion

    Actually the Vatican is a sovereign country and the Pope is actually considered the King.

    As John said,

    “It actually more-so fits the Vatican than any other nominees. Just do a google maps search on “vatican city” and notice how very close it is to the Sea. It is closer to the sea than Jerusalem is, much closer to the sea than Babylon is, or any other suggested country. It PERFECTLY fits the description of:

    “For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.” Rev 18:17-19

    If you look at the map, you can easily visualise the merchants of the sea clearly seeing the smoke of the vatican city rising up, as they look from their ships.”

    You said,

    “let’s not forget God’s repeated judgments against Jerusalem for her “whoredomes” and “idolatries” throughout all of her history…that He might bring her back in repentance…(I’ve been in the OT mostly for the past year, studying the history of “Israel”, her judgments and her rebellion – sometimes she repented…sometimes not, and the resulting judgment upon Jerusalem and many of her cities.)”

    Yes and lets NOT forget that God gave mercy to His people right after that for repenting! You quote verses to show us how bad Jerusalem has been, but you fail to show us the verses where God grants mercy and forgiveness to them.

    The last 2000+ years Jerusalem has NOT been a killing people, and Jerusalem WILL NOT BE killing Jews and Saints during the Tribulation! HOWEVER the Babylonian religion that the Pharisees followed that flowed into the Roman Catholic Religion is what we are dealing with and HAS BEEN, murdering Jews and Christians for hundreds of years and will again during the Tribulation.

    You need to understand that the Roman Catholic church did not just pop out of thin air, it was crafted and orchestrated as a MYSTERY religion to COMBAT Christianity. Roman Catholic roots stems from the same Babylonian religion that Israel was condemned for by God because they too started to follow after strange Babylonian god’s and goddesses. The Queen of Heaven is the same Mary in the RC church.

    It is not Jerusalem that is the city that is the problem, it is the Vatican – the CITY that is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to God and Jesus Christ His Son and the Saints and the Jews.
    The one who has 2 billion followers and not counting all these so called other APOSTATE Christian churches out there, and the VATICAN is DEAD SET against JERUSALEM and wishes they could wipe it off the face of the planet. The Vatican hates Jews and born again Christians alike.

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion,

    I knew you would bring up the verse that states “Sodom and Egypt”. I had my reply waiting.

    Remember Jesus said “when you do these things to the least of my servants, you do it UNTO ME”. Where were MOST of the apostles killed and MOST of the infant church martyred? Was it Jerusalem or Rome? Paul said in Phil 3:10 “that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death

    Paul is saying that his death would be similar to the death of Jesus because he had become so united in fellowship with Jesus that (in a sense) Jesus died with him in Rome.

    The book of Revelation states that Egypt and Sodom was a “figurative” place. It represented cities/countries that opposed God’s purposes. Jerusalem partially opposed their messiah – especially the Jewish leadership (thousands upon thousands of Jews, didn’t,though). Rome reached a point where in its ENTIRETY it sought to destroy all believers. Jesus called the church His body and effectively those who destroy the body of Christ (believers) are actually seeking to destroy Him.

    So, Jesus effectively died in Rome through His people who were dying because Jesus suffered for ALL time (past, present and future) on the cross and for ALL time has suffered in ALL things like us. “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin” Hebrews 4:15

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion,

    You stated that the OT and Revelation mentioned that Jerusalem was responsible for the deaths of saints globally. Actually, reading the verses you quoted there is NO verses from the OT making that statement. What you quote above is actually ASSUMING that it is referring to Jerusalem. Please show CLEAR verses which specifically state that Jerusalem was responsible for the deaths of prophets and saints OUTSIDE Israel. The ones you have quoted DO NOT say those things. In the verses from Revelation it says that the “whore” is responsible. You have ONLY implied it is Jerusalem, but you do not have any HARD FACTS. The verses in Revelation DOES NOT state who the whore is.

    Agreed that Jerusalem was called a whore in the OT but it doesn’t follow that the “whore” ALWAYS means Jerusalem. What about Hosea who was told to marry a whore which was a picture of how the Lord would accept Israel (Jerusalem) a whore back to Himself by overlooking all its past sins. Please read the whole of chapter 1 of Hosea.

    Notice these words especially:

    “Yet the number of the children of Israel
    Shall be as the sand of the sea,
    Which cannot be measured or numbered.
    And it shall come to pass
    In the place where it was said to them,
    ‘You are not My people,’[d]
    There it shall be said to them,
    ‘You are sons of the living God.’
    11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
    Shall be gathered together,
    And appoint for themselves one head;
    And they shall come up out of the land,
    For great will be the day of Jezreel! “

  • Marion

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs…the swiftness of your response “hints” that PERHAPS, rather than examining the Scriptures posted, and thinking them through thoroughly, which takes time and searching, you provide a knee-jerk response, based on what you (and many others), think you “know” to be true; but maybe it isn’t true. Is there perhaps a “defensive” posture you are taking, due to bias, rather than seeking and learning (since none of us have “arrived”)…I don’t know…not a judgment…just asking? I know it is difficult to consider information that has not entered the realm of possibility, and we are prone to off-handedly dismiss it (I’m telling on myself here), ESPECIALLY when it is the COMMON, POPULAR understanding that has been promoted within the Christian world (secular as well). Gotta ask…what’s wrong with THAT picture?

    The focus of the discussion has been on “how does the Bible reveal to us the identity of the ‘harlot’ mentioned in Revelation.”
    So the focus of the Scriptures I have shared, has been those Scriptures that describe said “harlot” in relation to her evil influences and blood-guiltiness…which remains upon her because of her state of unbelief. You correctly mention God’s continued call to repentance and mercy, when the people turned to Him from their idols. However, upon the rejection of Messiah…the ULTIMATE idolatry and blood-guiltiness, it remains upon her in her continued state of “unbelief.” As I encouraged the readers and commenters to read the Book of Ezekiel, (Isaiah and Jeremiah have lots to say in this regard as well) those other aspects will be seen…God’s mercy and grace. BUT…again, for the sake of the present discussion, I did not focus there. This, of course, is not an exhaustive discussion on all the truths involved surrounding Jerusalem and all the questions that will be engendered when one recognizes that “she” is the “harlot”. And MANY new questions surface, which reflect we have had a poor understanding of MANY truths!

    Perhaps you failed to notice that I wrote…

    “let’s not forget God’s repeated judgments against Jerusalem for her “whoredomes” and “idolatries” throughout all of her history…that He might bring her back in repentance…(I’ve been in the OT mostly for the past year, studying the history of “Israel”, her judgments and her rebellion – sometimes she repented…sometimes not, and the resulting judgment upon Jerusalem and many of her cities.)”

    When “she” turned from her idols in repentance she was shown the “mercy of God.”

    Remember…it is in this last final judgment against “her” for all the already mentioned, and continued betrayals of the love of the God showered upon her, through her unbelief, and when the heavens are opened and they “look upon Him whom they have pierced”, alnog with all the world, that the “remnant will be saved.”

    With the continued discussion of “Rome” being the “harlot”…where are ANY Scriptures that identify this to be true…
    NOWHERE is she called a “harlot”, are her “idolatries” “adulteries” or “whoredoms” mentioned. Why? Because “she” (Rome) is not the city that has had the “love of God set upon her” that she might “betray” Him, and the great mercy and lovingkindnesses that He had relentless showered upon her. God DOES NOT EXPECT faithfulness form the heathen. AND, as you correctly point out, the Vatican is a “country”…it is a sovereign nation, with a king…(beast/anti-christ?)…it is NOT a “city.”

    In fact, NOWHERE in the Old Testament is “Rome”, “Roman” or “Romans” mentioned.
    There is no “witness” to Rome as such in the Scriptures; in the OT, nor in the NT is “she” (Rome) referred to as a “harlot”.

    Consider the principle set forth in Deut. 19:15 “ONE witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for ANY SIN in ANY SIN that he sinneth: at the mouth of TWO witnesses, or at the mouth of THREE witnesses, shall the matter be stablished.”

    Jesus reiterated this principle here: “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
    BUT if he will not hear thee, then take with thee ONE or TWO MORE, that in the mouth of TWO or THREE witnesses every word may be established.” (Matt. 18:15-16)…see verse 17 for full context.

    The identity of the “harlot” of Revelation 17-19:2 has been “established” by the “witness” of MANY prophets, according to the Word of God and by Jesus, Himself. This meets the “witness” criteria given us in Scripture. We may have difficulty with all the questions that will come about because of such…it is true…BUT…there are NO OTHER WITNESSES.

  • Redeemed

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I echo John & Debs comments.

    I don’t hear Israel calling for all religions to unite, do you Marion? In fact, they are at odds with the surrounding countries that are Muslim. While the Vatican seeks to build bridges and they even have the worship of Mary in common and many Muslims take pilgrimages to the Marian sites. And now we hear rumblings of the Pope calling for the uniting of all faiths. It should be clear that the verses Marion quoted are not referring to Jerusalem.

    And to me is the even greater question of should speculation about this be a major priority for believers? Those who honor truth know that the Romish system is corrupt as well as other religions. They are enemies of the Gospel. Our focus should be declaring the truth to a lost world and defending it to the growing number of confused Christians who are listening to the wrong voices.

    We know the time is short and we are to be about our Father’s business, whatever He has called us to do to redeem the time. And we need to defend sound doctrine as it is being assaulted as never before. Bible verses are being twisted like pretzels and taken out of context and we need to stand firm and rightly divide the Word. Not everyone will listen, but we have to do what we can to stem the tide of drifting into false teaching and false concepts and downright lies.

    I do not doubt for a moment Marion’s sincerity and we are just trying to reason together.

  • Redeemed

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion, I did not see where you addressed the Scriptures I asked you about.

    How do you interpret

    Ezekiel 16: 60-63?

    60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. 61Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. 62And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: 63That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion

    Do these Mysterious Babylonian rites belong to the RCC/Vatican or to Jerusalem?

    The Origin of Babylon’s Religion

    Ancient records indicate that Nimrod had a wife named Semiramis who was the founder and first high priestess of the Babylonian mystery religion. She gave birth to a son named Tammuz, whom she claimed was conceived miraculously. This son was considered savior of his people and in effect was the first false Messiah—a counterfeit of Genesis 3:15 and God’s promise of a Savior. The son was to have been killed by a wild beast, but brought back to life.

    The religious system of Semiramis had many secret rites in the worship of its idols. These were called mysteries (secrets) into which new members had to be initiated. When the initiates were initiated they were given a cup containing a mysterious drink made of wine, honey, water and flour. This represented the doctrines of the cult, but these also made the participant intoxicated and prepared for what the participant was about to see, hear and do. These rites involved consecrated male and female prostitution and the most sordid sexual immorality carried out in connection with its idolatrous worship. The fornication is both physical and spiritual (Rev. 17:2-5).

    The rites incorporated the worship of the mother (who was called “the queen of heaven”) and the child. While the rites varied, and the idol images often varied from country to country as the cult spread from one location to another, they all contained one central feature, the worship of the goddess mother and her child. Often the names changed, but no matter where you went, pictures and images of a mother with a child in her arms were found. (See the study on Rev. 14.)

    The religious system which began in Babel (or Babylon), became the mother, the source of all pagan religions of the world. This is the reason she is called “Mother of Harlots” (Rev. 17:5). This system spread to Greece, Egypt, Italy, Phoenicia, Israel, India, Asia Minor and Europe. Canaan was full of this iniquity and is one of the reasons God commanded Israel to destroy its inhabitants. Their failure to do so led to Israel’s own downfall and involvement with the Babylonian system.

    Babylonianism Today

    But what about the present? Now we come to information which will link the past with the present and help us to identify Babylonianism today. This will also help us to identify the religious city of 17:18 which, because of its Babylonianism, is symbolically called Babylon.

    Linked with the central mystery of Babylon—the worship of the mother and child—were many other lesser mysteries which will have many familiar sounds. These include:

    The Doctrine of Purgatory
    The doctrine of purgatorial purification after death was seen first in pagan Babylonianism. It involved the same extortion and theft of the poor to get the dead cleansed and into a higher state. Prayers and supplications were offered by the priest but only after great fees were collected.204

    The Doctrine of Extreme Unction
    In the pagan Babylonian system the dying were anointed for their last journey. This was done in the name of Bee?l-samen, “lord of heaven” and “lord of oil,” the anointed one.205 In James 5 anointing, by contrast, is to be done medicinally, with a view to health, not death.

    The Doctrine of Festivals of Ancient Babylonianism
    Yule Day
    Yule means “infant,” thus, the day of birth. In Egypt the son of Isis, the Egyptian title for the queen of heaven, was to have been born at the end of December. Long before they were introduced to Christianity, Anglo Saxons celebrated a “Yule Day” and this was preceded by “A Mother’s Night.” The Sabaeans of Arabia likewise celebrated a birth festival on the 24th of December. This was the birth of their moon god, “Lord Moon” which in the East was called “Meni” (Isa. 65:11). A special tree and a yule log were both involved with this festival. The yule log represented Nimrod, the dead stock of Nimrod, cut down by his enemies, and the tree represented Nimrod come to life.

    March 25
    Long before the birth of Christ pagan Rome honored Cybele, the mother of the Babylonian Messiah, with a special day, March 25th, nine months before December 25th. Today in Rome this is called “the Annunciation of Mary.”

    Easter
    Easter was another name for Astarte or Istar, which were other names for the queen of heaven. This festival in ancient Babylonianism was a 40-day weeping period for Tammuz just prior to the festival of Astarte (or Istar or Easter), who was said to have received her son back from the dead; for it was taught that he was slain by a wild beast (boar). To him the egg was sacred, depicting the mystery of resurrection.

    Fifteen hundred years before Christ the hot cross buns of Good Friday were used in the worship of the queen of heaven, the goddess of Easter. They were even called “the boun,” i.e., “bun” (Jer. 7:18). They were first offered, then later eaten.

    The egg can be traced back to the fable of the mystic egg of the Babylonians. “An egg of wondrous size” is said to have fallen from heaven into the River Euphrates. The fishes rolled it to the bank where the doves having settled upon it, hatched it. Out came Venus who afterwards was called the Assyrian goddess or Astarte, the queen of heaven. So the egg first was a symbol of Astarte or Easter, the queen of heaven.

    Thus you can see the background for lent, the 40-day period prior to Easter, and the Easter festival. Some simply adopted the egg and applied it to the resurrection of Christ. In the very early church there was the celebration of the Passover on Friday before the resurrection, but it was not called Easter.

    The Nativity of John the Baptist
    One of the grand and original festivals of Tammuz, the child of Semiramis, was observed in June. In fact, June was called by his name in some places. Other periods had been devoted to the commemoration of the death and reviving of the Babylonian god for various reasons in different countries, but the month of Tammuz appears to have been the primitive date of this festival. As a result, this date and festival still had a firm hold on the people in various parts of the Roman world, so the papacy came up with a solution. John the Baptist was born six months before Christ, which according to their festival for Christ’s birth was December 25, so June would be John’s birth month. One of their many sacred names for Tammuz was Oannes. This was just perfect because in Latin, the sacred language of the church, John was Joannes. Thus, this festival was continued and suited both Christians and pagans alike.

    The Feast of Assumption
    This is the teaching that Mary saw no corruption, but was in body and soul carried up to heaven and is now invested with all power of heaven and earth. This too, goes back to Babylonian mystery.

    The Doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration
    This doctrine of Rome did not come out of mistaken use of Scriptures such as Acts 2:38, but from Babylon itself. The baptism was by immersion and was a part of the initiation rites of Babylonianism. It was a rather rough process along with the other parts of the initiation and if one survived, then he was admitted to the knowledge of the mysteries. It took real courage to submit to these rites. The motivation, please note, was regeneration and pardon of all sins! Babylonianism spread all over the world and it touched all nations. Thus, as you would expect, baptismal regeneration was even found in Mexico before Roman Catholic missionaries ever arrived, as well as in India and among our Anglo ancestors.

    The Sign of the Cross
    The sign of the cross as used in Rome, did not originate with Christianity as many assume, but came right out of mystery Babylon. It represented the mystic Tau, the letter “T” and the initial for the name Tammuz. (see here for picture:

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion

    Also how do you interpret:

    “And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.” (Ezekiel 36:18-24)

    “Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.” (Ezekiel 37:11)

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion,

    You said “In fact, NOWHERE in the Old Testament is “Rome”, “Roman” or “Romans” mentioned”

    Did you read my article [removed]

    If you did, did you read it thoroughly? That article tackles the whole question about Rome.

    The above statement of yours shows how little you know the OT. How can the OT mention Rome if the OT writings were Ccompleted BEFORE the Roman empire came into being? The last book of the OT was written towards the end of the Persian empire (just before the Greek empire). The book of Daniel, Nehemiah and Ezra highlights this. But the unknown 4th beast was prophesied to appear directly after the Greek empire. Who was that 4th beast Marion?

    Therefore, indirectly Rome IS mentioned. Daniel gives us details about Rome (in his book). The Book of Revelation gives us further information about this 4th beast with 7 heads which contained 10 horns (10 kings). Since when could Jerusalem be considered as a beast with 7 heads and 10 kings? Even if Jerusalem has 7 hills, it DOES not have 10 kings. It did have kings but MANY MANY more than ten. Only Rome fulfils this. Rome is a CITY but within that city has a COUNTRY (vatican city). As I tried to show in my article the 8th head (arising in latter times) is part of the 7 (as explained in the book of Revelation)

    Also, Marion,

    Rev 17:18 says “The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth”.

    Since when has Jerusalem ruled over the kings of the earth? However, the Catholic institution HAS ruled over the kings of the earth!!! Jerusalem (during the Solomonic empire) may have ruled over a number of kings, but NEVER the kings of ALL THE EARTH.

    Then what about Revelation 17:5 “This title was written on her forehead:
    “MYSTERY,
    BABYLON THE GREAT,
    THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
    AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

    Again, that DOES NOT fit Jerusalem, but it DOES fit how the religion of Babylon filled the Earth with its influence after the people were scattered from the tower of Babel. The catholic institution has always been seeking to re-establish the Babylonic religion and bring the whole world back into the tower of Babel scenario, ie global governance.

    I will now show you an excerpt from my article which will show how ludicrous it is to try and match Jerusalem to the whore.

    To be Continued …..

  • John Chingford

    [Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Continued:

    As promised, here is an excerpt from my article:

    7) Daniel 2:32-33
    The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.

    Here Daniel refers to 5 empires (remember he does not relate to Egyptian and Assyrian empires because they were in the past). The 5 empires are likened to a human body: head, chest and arms, belly and thighs, legs and feet = 5 parts. Therefore this 5th empire is effectively the 7th as contained in Revelation 13 and 17. This 5th empire (feet) is a mixture of iron and clay. Daniel explains that the iron represents the 4th empire Rome, but the 5th also contains iron = Rome. The 5th (ie, 7th) empire will contain Rome but also includes a different element = clay. We know that God made man out of clay and therefore clay represents mankind. Could this mean that this final empire will be democratic?

    Therefore, the 7th head of Revelation 17 is this empire containing something of the Roman empire or its influence.

    8) Revelation 17:9-11, Revelation 17:18, Revelation 17:5
    The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

    The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth

    This title was written on her forehead:
    MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
    AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    If the woman (the whore) was the great city, what city was she? Well it says she represented Babylon. But …. It says “Mystery”. Babylonic religion was a religion of mysteries full of imagery and symbolism. This city was located with 7 hills. Babylon was not surrounded by 7 hills. Rome has always been known as the City on 7 hills. Also, Revelation 13 and 17 are clearly talking about the Roman empire. It says that the 7 heads are seven hills and also 7 kings. The seven hills represent Rome and the culmination of the 7 kings or the 4th and final beast (as described earlier) is a final Roman empire. Then we read that there is an eighth king. During the time when chapter 17 was written it says that the beast “once was and now is not” but will rise at the end. This must mean that the 7th head will be when the full embodiment and power of that beast will be unleashed. The 6th head of the original empire was not the full embodiment of the beast (with all its unlimited power) until the time of the 7th head.

    What we are also told is that there is an eighth. “The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven” This excellently explains the Vatican City. It is part of Rome but yet a separate country in its own right, with its own separate political powers. It is set on Vatican Hill which is part of Rome but is not under the Political authority of Rome. It has its (eighth) own hill.

    This could be why Revelation 17 links hills and kings together and says it belongs to the 7, ie is part of Rome. Not only does this re-emphasise that the prostitute (woman) is Rome but actually Vatican City. She rides upon the political power of the Roman Empire being, part of it but separate.

    So the Roman empire (the 6th head and the 4th beast) continued on throughout history. History tells us that though the Roman Empire fell it didn’t really fall but became much weakened and actually continued its influence through the ROMAN Catholic institution. Throughout the “dark ages” the Vatican basically was effectively the ruling power throughout the empire.

    The seventh head (empire) would be a re-emergence (revival) of that political power combined with the Babylonic influence of the Vatican. It will not last long as it will be brittle, won’t be able to co-exist properly.

    So Revelation 17 verses: 5, 9-11 and 18 only make sense if they are relating to Vatican City (The Roman Catholic Institution) and their Mystery religion which has ruled over the kings of the whole Earth.

    9) Revelation 17:15
    The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

    This clearly explains what the seas or waters are. The Vatican sits over multitudes throughout the Earth “peoples, multitudes, nations and languages”

  • Redeemed

    Dave Hunt obviously did his due diligence in studying the Word and imparting truth.

    The newly elected Pope is noted for his humanitarian efforts. It will be interesting to watch this all develop. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will not be alarmed, just alert.

    POPE URGES ALL RELIGIONS TO UNITE FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE

    http://www.voanews.com/content/pope-justice/1625457.html

    He even includes those with NO religion!

  • John Chingford

    Hi Marion

    You said “I have no Scripture to support the RCC being the “beast” or the “anti-christ.” It does appear to be so, but NOT the “harlot”…the identity of the harlot is clearly supported by Scripture, as I have laid out.”

    If you are accepting that the beast MAY be the Catholic system,but still hold to Jerusalem being the whore, then let me ask you; how do you account for the “woman riding the beast”? Since when has Jerusalem rid on the bacxk of the Catholic system?

    You mentioned that the catholic system came out of Jerusalem. If that was correct (which it is not) then that would mean that the beast is riding the woman. Can’t you see how silly that sounds? It simply DOES NOT ADD UP.

    The harlot has always been understood as “false religion (a system of idolatry, having “many” lovers). At the time the Book of Revelation was written, gnosticism (babylonic religion) had infiltrated the church. John “foresaw” the culmination of this harlot religion as riding the beast. The beast is NOT the woman. The woman rides the beast. They are 2 distinct entities. My article above goes to great lengths to explain this distinction, the cathol;ic babylonic system USING political power/authority to achieve its global bjectives. That CAN NEVER be said about Jerusalem.

  • John Chingford

    Cont….

    Jerusalem has NEVER ridden that 4th beast. As shown above, the 4th beast is the Roman Empire. This 4th beast had 7 heads and 10 horns. If it was true that the woman who rode that beast was Israel, then it would mean that Israel (in the future) would have to be in cooperation with Rome. We see no indication of this in the NT. Jerusalem was always in total opposition to Rome until Jerusalem fell in AD70. Jerusalem could not have ridden the beast system during those 2000 years of exile because it was controlled by the gentiles.

    In recent times – since 1948, Jerusalem again emerged as a Jewish state. Has it ever (during these 65 years) embraced other religions? NO! It has stood strong on its own feet, trying to retain its own unique sovereignty independent of the beast system. It cannot be considered as “riding” upon the political force of the beast. In fact the beast has always opposed Israel. It was nothing other than a DIVINE MIRACULOUS act of God that Israel became a nation again and it is ONLY because of God who promised to bring the Jews back to their Land from all the nations of the world.

    They have come back in the hardness of their hearts. That was prophesied many times in the OT but specifically by Ezekiel through chapters 36 to 39. In Ezekiel it says that they would first return in hardness of heart, then God would deal with them in their Land showing Himself to be HOLY in their site. He stated that a time would come when God would take away their stony heart (after the return, whilst in the Land) and bring them to repentance and acceptance of their messiah Jesus “they will look upon ME who they have pierced and mourn for HIM”. Jesus said, “you will no longer see ME until you say ‘blessed is HE who comes in the name of the Lord’ “. That WILL happen during the gog and magog wars as a third of Israel (that remains) will cry out to God and receive a heart of flesh.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    If Roman Catholicism was foisted by unbelieving Jews of the Synagogue of Satan who infiltrated the church of Rome in their attempt to destroy Bible believing Christianity(which they started doing from Jerusalem), as Marion comment’s seems to imply (and I’ve read other sources that allege the same thing) THEN both theories are correct: the “whore” could well be Jerusalem (Talmudic Judaism of the Synagogue of Satan) AND her daughter Rome.

    The daughter must needs be after the image of her mother.
    Just my fifty cents.

  • Carolyn

    Redeemed, after you stop rolling your eyes, you can read this, putting away your preconceived ideas. Try to read with discernment.
    While I agree that Rome is part of Mystery Babylon, she is not it. This is one place I have to disagree with Dave Hunt.
    Debs, Marion, John and Redeemed, and others:
    This 5 part series is something that I’ve been reading little by little. I do not endorse the man or the teachings but I do endorse his research on the Mystery Babylon, I agree with most of his connections and interpretations of Scripture. Although I can’t at the moment discuss due to personal issues, I will offer this for review. There are 5 parts to this study and here is part 5 with the symbology and history behind them which lines up with Scripture. In my estimation, the author proved how the Masons (Mystery Babylon) has embedded itself into the Catholic Church, into Israel (Kabbalist), into the Christian Church and into America. So that is how they are all connected…by the idolatry of Isis/Osiris.

    [edited by DTW: URL REMOVED < -- if you dig deeper you will find out the author is a guy called Stewart Best who thinks Satan is God with a Capital G"]

    John Part 1 answers your question to me about seaports. The land, the end time nation representing Babylon is much bigger than the Vatican, Rome or Italy. This series answers why I believe that America is the end time Babylon.

    [edited: URL REMOVED - same Stewart Best guy]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    No, the CITY is not Jerusalem and to think so is borderline anti-semetic.

    Just because some Jews followed after Babylonian teachings does not in any way make Jerusalem evil. Marion and you (Paul) are now following after the strange teachings of the Merovingian bloodline and the lost tribe of Dan.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, I stopped rolling my eyes and in fact had to put them back in the sockets after reading what you posted here. You have the audacity to tell me to use discernment and set aside preconceived ideas?

    Well Carolyn, I waded through all the garbage of the links you sent and I smelled a very odious rat, but needed to do some searching to unearth him.

    I really question your wisdom Carolyn. Did you do your due diligence before swallowing this “America is Babylon” swill before regurgitating it to others?

    Did you investigate the author and find out where he is coming from? Do you know who Stewart Best is?

    He made this statement:

    Stewart Best asserts that all Christians must have a supernatural experience with another aspect of Christ “that was not in operation during his visit with us” before they can know they have been regenerated. He says a “hidden aspect of Christ brings union and salvation.” According to Best, regeneration is to “experience the reality of the inner essence of Christ.”

    This greatly alarmed me! He is a false teacher of the most vile, occultic kind. I am utterly shocked at the depth of the evil connected to this man! He preaches a false gospel with the “hook” of people searching for answers to prophecy just like yourself.

    Carolyn, I issue this stern rebuke out of love and concern for the sheep who could be misled and to give you opportunity to rectify this serious error.

  • Marion

    All:
    I have carefully read over every comment and question posted on this thread. What I HAVE observed are arguments propped up by “articles, links, books, men, and human reasoning.” I have used Scripture, and will continue to do so..you are familiar with the phrase…’Sola Scriptura’…no?…if not, it means ‘Scripture alone.’ And to your next obvious question…NO…I do not “follow” Luther or Calvin. Jesus asked me to “come, follow me”…I said, “yes.” I am now ready to respond, and this will be my last; so please bear with me.

    —————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
    John Chingford said (see March 21 for full comment):
    “Remember Jesus said, ‘when you do these things to the least of my servant, you do it UNTO ME.’ Where were MOST of the apostles killed and MOST of the infant church martyred? Was it Jerusalem or Rome? Paul said in Phil. 3:10 ‘that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death.’
    Paul is saying that his death would be similar to the death of Jesus because he had become so united in fellowship with Jesus that (in a sense) Jesus died with him in Rome. So Jesus effectively died in Rome, through His people who were dying because Jesus suffered for ALL time…on the cross for ALLtime has suffered in ALL things like us.”
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

    WOW!! REALLY??? Is this “special revelation?” Perhaps you don’t remember that “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.” (Heb. 10:10)??? Paul stated that HE would be conformed to the death of CHRIST. You state that CHRIST’S death would be conformed to PAUL’S…OURS?? So much so that you now add to the word of God which explicity states Jesus died in Jerusalem and ‘in a sense’ He now DIES (again) with Paul in ROME??? Paul NEVER inferred such a thing!! What kind of blasphemy is this???

    BLASPHEMY:
    1. profane or contemptuous speech, writing, or action concerning God or anything held as divine
    2. any remark or action held to be irreverent or disrespectful

    What will you not do to “make” your case? I find myself wondering…were all the “discerners” asleep for that one?? This is pure sophistry!!

    SOPHISTRY:
    1. unsound or misleading but clever, plausible and subtle arguments or reasoning; sophism
    1. the methods or practices of the Sophists

    SOPHIST:
    3. any person practicing clever, specious reasoning

    SPECIOUS:
    1. seeming to be good, sound, correct, LOGICAL, etc. without REALLY being so; plausible but not genuine
    2. pleasing to the SIGHT
    (Webster’s New World Dictionary, 2nd college edition) (caps mine)

    John: Do I read your blog? In a word…NO!

    Debs: Merovingian Bloodline nonsense? I care not for “fables.”
    Borderline anti-Semitic??…using such labels are an attempt to “shut down” an open and honest examination of the facts…where has any “hatred” been expressed??
    IF however, as I put forth, God’s own Word is teaching ideas that our sensibilites find “distasteful”, or hard to comprehend…what are we to do? Present a lie that we prefer? Call God’s Word a lie? Neither choice is acceptable. If we are God’s people, we MUST simply believe His Word…comparing Scripture with Scripture, examining parallel passages.

    “For precept MUST be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line; HERE a little and THERE a little: (Is. 28:10) (caps mine)…to carefully do so, is not using Scripture out of context.

    As long as men and women of God lean on their “own understanding” and the “imaginations of their hearts”, looking OUT into the world, to what they can “see” and put together, from the “natural plane”, to the “wisdom”, words and musings of men (and there are FAR too many “lying in wait to deceive”), we will not have “eyes to see, ears to hear, or hearts to understand” the truth plainly written before our eyes…our vision being obscured, with confusion the result, being “tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;” (Eph.4:14b) The things of God are “spiritually discerned.” (see 1 Cor. 2:1-16) We MUST look into Scripture to understand Scripture and our world. We cannot look into the world to understand Scripture, and to guide our interpretation, running our eyes to and fro throughout the world to lend credence to our conclusions.

    As a jury examines the evidence in a court of law, who are REQUIRED (as difficult as that may be) to “lay aside” their own ideas, opinions, biases, conclusions and the opinions and verdicts of others and are REQUIRED to simply examine the evidence set before them and the testimony of the witnesses (hearsay “evidence” is inadmissible)…

    SO WE… in the same way, the people of God, are to be TRUE Bereans; to simply look to the Word of God…He has spoken…Himself, through the prophets, His own dear Son, and the apostles. He has provided the truth, the “evidence” if you will…the written Word of God, along with the eye witnesses. We are to examine these alone. Nothing else. No other opinions, conclusions, alternative “scenarios” are allowed.

    Through the examination of Scripture, and the testimony of the witnesses, I have shared what I have learned, using only SOME of the myriads of supporting Scriptures…no outside observations (what my eyes might see, and thereby deceive me), no other books, no other men. If you have not been able to “see” what is there from these few Scriptures, any more I can give will not help. I am not the one who gives sight to the blind.

    I don’t understand all the hows and whys of all the questions being asked…I have enough of my own…I ask the Lord for truth. I don’t need all those questions answered…I need only believe what He has said. As I believe…He gives more light. It’s simple, really.

    Rather than demanding of me to answer your questions related to what Jesus has spoken…why not DEMAND of Jesus…”just when was ‘Jerusalem’ responsible” for this, that, and the other things…(is this not what the Pharisees did? – just asking)…rather than just believe His word?

    All I know is:

    Jesus said, “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of teh prophets and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
    And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS.
    Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them WHICH KILLED THE PROPHETS.
    Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    Wherefore behold, I send UNTO YOU PROPHETS, and WISE MEN, and SCRIBES: and some of them YE SHALL KILL and CRUCIFY; and some of them shall ye SCOURGE in your synagogues, and PERSECUTE them from city to city:
    That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the BLOOD of RIGHTEOUS Abel unto the BLOOD of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye SLEW between the TEMPLE and the ALTAR.
    Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, THOU that KILLEST THE PROPHETS, and STONEST THEM WHICH ARE SENT UNTO THEE, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not?
    Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE.” (Matt. 23:29-39) (caps mine)

    The evidence has been presented, the witnesses have spoken…the chiefest of them…THE LORD JESUS CHRIST…has spoken…either you believe Him… or not…there is nothing left to say.
    The ALMIGHTY GOD has made His case.

    “Study to shew THYSELF approved UNTO GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth. But shun PROFANE and VAIN babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.” (2 Tim. 2:15-16) (caps mine)

  • Carolyn

    Redeemed: Could I have direct quotes and link(s) to what you are saying please. I did not get that from anything I read. He has a clear message of salvation throughout the 5 part series that I read through before posting. I’m wondering where I missed all the references you are talking about. Clearly, my intention is not to mislead anyone. From: http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/america_babylon.htm

    “Does it not seem odd to you that America, the GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD, the greatest evangelical nation; that took the Gospel of Christ to the four corners of the world; THE RICHEST NATION ON THE EARTH, who has given more aid to nations than any other; THE NATION TO HAVE WON TWO MAJOR WORLD WARS and many others; IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE? That God would forget a nation that has been central to the survival of Israel in this age? Not even in a cryptic way?

    That is like saying God is blind in one eye, and cannot see out of the other! It is accusing God of utter negligence! But it is not God who is NEGLIGENT. It is not God who FORGOT AMERICA in prophecy. It is not God who failed to paint a picture that was obvious to those that wanted to find it. IT IS NOT GOD, BUT THE FALSE PROPHETS OF AMERICA WHO HAVE UTTERLY FAILED THEIR FLOCK. They are DECEIVED, AND THUS ARE DECEIVERS AND HYPOCRITES, FOR THEY LEAD MILLIONS TO ETERNAL RUIN.

    God told the citizens of BABYLON THE GREAT, AMERICA, exactly what would happen in America, and pointed a finger directly at the CHRISTIAN SHEPHERDS. Why do you suppose that God would do that? Why would He pick a specific group and lay the blame right at their feet? Because it is GOD’S PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE ANTICHRIST NATION, THE NATION THAT SPAWNS ANTICHRIST. Remember that antichrist rises in DECEPTION.

    “My people (Christians) hath been LOST SHEEP

    (UNSAVED, UNREGENERATE – HELL BOUND):

    THEIR SHEPHERDS

    (THE CHRISTIAN CLERGY, THE EVANGELISTS, THE PREACHERS, THE TEACHERS)

    HAVE CAUSED THEM TO GO ASTRAY,..(Jeremiah 50:6).

    The shepherds of God’s people in Babylon America embrace a FALSE SALVATION GOSPEL (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1-3), which leads MILLIONS into eternal ruin. Their salvation Gospel is an UTTERLY FALSE GOSPEL. It is “sugar-coated”, and an ALL POSITIVE GOSPEL. That is what Jeremiah means when he says: “they have turned them AWAY on the MOUNTAINS; they have gone from MOUNTAIN TO HILL, they have FORGOTTEN THEIR RESTING PLACE.”

    God fights His wars IN THE VALLEY. True salvation lies IN THE VALLEY. If you refuse the VALLEY EXPERIENCE (THE NEGATIVE ASPECTS OF THE SALVATION DOCTRINE) you will never FIND YOUR RESTING PLACE. Jesus said you MUST PICK UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW HIM. Babylon’s gospel of salvation HAS NO CROSS, NO DEATH OF SELF, AND THEREFORE NO TRUE LIFE. It is an utterly false salvation doctrine. IT SWEEPS THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICAN CHRISTIANS INTO ETERNAL HELLFIRE. That is why God says they ARE LOST SHEEP. They ARE lost, LOST FOREVER.”

    Redeemed, what is not true from this excerpt? Part 1

  • Carolyn

    Redeemed, I made it clear that I was not endorsing anything else he wrote, as I have not specifically read much by him. I was presenting an article that I felt was well organized and Scripturally/historically based. Show me something in the article that is misrepresenting truth.

    Are you not doing the same thing that Paul was doing with Dave Hunt? and other writers? Digging up something besides the topic at hand and diverting all the attention onto something else that they are teaching? Yes, Dave Hunt was teaching a divine union with God which is Platonic and Gnostic and wrong. And Stewart Best may have some wrong teachings. I was only considering what he said in this 5 point article. And I said that I agree with most (not all) of his connections. The biggest and most important point he is making is how the Masonic, Occultic agenda is fulfilling prophecy. Also I did not find anything contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ in this series.

    And that was my point as well. If you want to trash the whole idea because you don’t agree with something you found in his links…I will accept that. But really, it’s a bit unfair to Paul then, because he was right about Dave and others.

  • Carolyn

    Redeemed, last thing…my comment about rolling your eyes was only meant to lighten things up a bit…momentarily, of course, as it is a rather serious subject. But my apologies if it was offensive to you. Reading over my comment, I could see how you could read into my comment a haughty attitude that wasn’t my feeling/intention at the time. Sorry.

  • Carolyn

    Marion: you said, “ALSO your charge of “special revelation” is false…I clearly stated that I was merely studying out the Scripture…ALL of Scripture. I receive no “special revelation” and have never claimed to have.”

    Yes, the Word is all we need and the Holy Spirit is our teacher. It’s our assumptions that are the problem and we don’t even realize we’re making them. So that’s why we have a safeguard in listening to a broad spectrum of orthodox teachers. It keeps us safe from tunnel vision. No one teacher has everything right. And that’s a good thing because then we’d follow the teacher. One teacher has some insights and another teacher may be wrong about some things and totally, awesomely right about most things. So we gradually gain perspective. No one is exempt from making mistakes, especially me…

  • Carolyn

    Debs…this comment could replace the comment above that I made at 7:32 pm on the 27th as I have changed the link to just a pdf file. That way we’re not linking to someone named Robert Howard who is linked to Stewart Best…it gets complicated…and confusing.

    Redeemed: Could I have direct quotes and link(s) to what you are saying please. I did not get that from anything I read. He has a clear message of salvation throughout the 5 part series that I read through before posting. I’m wondering where I missed all the references you are talking about. Clearly, my intention is not to mislead anyone. From: http://www.markswatson.com/BAB.pdf

    “Does it not seem odd to you that America, the GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD, the greatest evangelical nation; that took the Gospel of Christ to the four corners of the world; THE RICHEST NATION ON THE EARTH, who has given more aid to nations than any other; THE NATION TO HAVE WON TWO MAJOR WORLD WARS and many others; IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE? That God would forget a nation that has been central to the survival of Israel in this age? Not even in a cryptic way?

    That is like saying God is blind in one eye, and cannot see out of the other! It is accusing God of utter negligence! But it is not God who is NEGLIGENT. It is not God who FORGOT AMERICA in prophecy. It is not God who failed to paint a picture that was obvious to those that wanted to find it. IT IS NOT GOD, BUT THE FALSE PROPHETS OF AMERICA WHO HAVE UTTERLY FAILED THEIR FLOCK. They are DECEIVED, AND THUS ARE DECEIVERS AND HYPOCRITES, FOR THEY LEAD MILLIONS TO ETERNAL RUIN.

    God told the citizens of BABYLON THE GREAT, AMERICA, exactly what would happen in America, and pointed a finger directly at the CHRISTIAN SHEPHERDS. Why do you suppose that God would do that? Why would He pick a specific group and lay the blame right at their feet? Because it is GOD’S PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE ANTICHRIST NATION, THE NATION THAT SPAWNS ANTICHRIST. Remember that antichrist rises in DECEPTION.

    “My people (Christians) hath been LOST SHEEP

    (UNSAVED, UNREGENERATE – HELL BOUND):

    THEIR SHEPHERDS

    (THE CHRISTIAN CLERGY, THE EVANGELISTS, THE PREACHERS, THE TEACHERS)

    HAVE CAUSED THEM TO GO ASTRAY,..(Jeremiah 50:6).

    The shepherds of God’s people in Babylon America embrace a FALSE SALVATION GOSPEL (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1-3), which leads MILLIONS into eternal ruin. Their salvation Gospel is an UTTERLY FALSE GOSPEL. It is “sugar-coated”, and an ALL POSITIVE GOSPEL. That is what Jeremiah means when he says: “they have turned them AWAY on the MOUNTAINS; they have gone from MOUNTAIN TO HILL, they have FORGOTTEN THEIR RESTING PLACE.”

    God fights His wars IN THE VALLEY. True salvation lies IN THE VALLEY. If you refuse the VALLEY EXPERIENCE (THE NEGATIVE ASPECTS OF THE SALVATION DOCTRINE) you will never FIND YOUR RESTING PLACE. Jesus said you MUST PICK UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW HIM. Babylon’s gospel of salvation HAS NO CROSS, NO DEATH OF SELF, AND THEREFORE NO TRUE LIFE. It is an utterly false salvation doctrine. IT SWEEPS THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICAN CHRISTIANS INTO ETERNAL HELLFIRE. That is why God says they ARE LOST SHEEP. They ARE lost, LOST FOREVER.”

    Redeemed, what is not true from this excerpt? Part 1

  • John Chingford

    Hi Carolyn, Marion, Paul

    I have been monitoring my blog over the last 8 or 9 days to see if anyone visited it DIRECTLY via the DTW site through my links and read the articles I listed above, as related to this subject. According to my blog records, only 1 person has visited my blog via the DTW route (and not necessarily to read the important article relating to Mystery Babylon).

    Just wondering why only one person has visited. If you raised the issue are you not prepared to consider what other contributors (on this blog,who have studied the subject in great detail) have to say?

    As NO-ONE has replied to any of my last comments above I am rather disappointed.

    Just in case you didn’t notice my links, I post them here again:

    [removed]

    Also, here is my article PROVING how unique Israel STILL iS and how God MIRACULOUSLY brought the Jews back to the Land after 2000 years (as Isaiah 61 told us “the desolation of many generations” being restored – note: 70 years exile was just ONE generation not MANY generations).

    [removed]

  • Marion

    OOOps…I’m sorry Debs…I missed it…my comment is up…please delete the one I just sent today.
    I am glad to see you back!

  • Marion

    Debs…new comment from me (I know you know what I mean)…don’t want to confuse the issue.

    JOHN: No need for disappointment. I actually did respond to the comments posted before Deb’s was off-line.

    You and all others can find my response dated 3/26/13 above.

    That said, I’m done!

  • Marion

    Debs…I mistakenly thought my comment dated 3/27 was posted. On a second look, it is still awaiting moderation. Yet, comments dated after it are up. Have you overlooked this is some way? Thanx.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marion

    Yes I am back! Thank you :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marion

    Nope, it’s approved, give it some time to appear.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn wrote:

    Redeemed, I made it clear that I was not endorsing anything else he wrote, as I have not specifically read much by him. I was presenting an article that I felt was well organized and Scripturally/historically based. Show me something in the article that is misrepresenting truth.
    Are you not doing the same thing that Paul was doing with Dave Hunt? and other writers? Digging up something besides the topic at hand and diverting all the attention onto something else that they are teaching? Yes, Dave Hunt was teaching a divine union with God which is Platonic and Gnostic and wrong. And Stewart Best may have some wrong teachings. I was only considering what he said in this 5 point article. And I said that I agree with most (not all) of his connections. The biggest and most important point he is making is how the Masonic, Occultic agenda is fulfilling prophecy. Also I did not find anything contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ in this series.
    And that was my point as well. If you want to trash the whole idea because you don’t agree with something you found in his links…I will accept that. But really, it’s a bit unfair to Paul then, because he was right about Dave and others.

    Carolyn, I don’t have adequate time right now to address your questions regarding Stewart Best. I will get back on that.

    However, you are comparing oranges to apples with Paul and Dave Hunt and me and Stewart Best. You are incorrect to state that Paul had a legitimate beef with Dave Hunt. Hunt was exonerated, plain and simple. Mattere settled. Paul made false accusations that were countered and cleared up.

    Your statement: Yes, Dave Hunt was teaching a divine union with God which is Platonic and Gnostic and wrong. Dave Hunt did NOT teach a Gnostic and Platonic gospel. That is a lie from the pit of hell. Sorry to be so strong, but I do not want to dredge up what has already been settled. Dave just passed away about 4 days ago and God will be His judge. But that statement is a false accusation. If you were familiar with Dave’s statement on the Gospel you would realize that.

    I accept your apology as to the sarcasm with rolling the eyes. It did seem to be a snarky comment that could not have been taken as a friendly jab. I think I know a friendly jab when I see one.

    I will be back in regards to Stewart Best. I am not mistaken about him and by giving any credibility to him it could cause someone to stumble.

  • Carolyn

    Marion, here’s an excerpt from Stewart Best Part 2…because Stewart Best says it best. God is not finished with Israel. He will have the last say…there is still the time of Jacob’s trouble, the last 7 year period of Daniel’s 70 weeks…but then it will be time for Christ to set up his throne in Jerusalem.

    You can read this and decide for yourself. I won’t argue. If you already have your mind made up that Israel is scheduled for annihilation forever and forever, the Scripture says differently….and here it is:

    “The Supreme Court of the United States TWICE ruled that America WAS A CHRISTIAN NATION. The 1891 decision was very clear about what that meant. We can easily prove that BABYLON IS PORTRAYED AS A PRETRIBULATIONAL AND TRIBULATION NATION, which means IT IS A NATION WITHIN THE CHURCH AGE, thus UNDER THE NEW COVENANT. If a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, then that person is GRAFTED INTO THE NATION ISRAEL, and becomes part of the heritage of God. It cannot be otherwise, something Paul confirmed:

    “For there

    IS NO DIFFERENCE

    between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him

    (Romans 10:12).”

    Under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, which is a NEW HEART VIA REGENERATION, there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile. ALL COME INTO THE NEW COVENANT VIA THE SAME WAY: REBIRTH.

    “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,

    lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;

    that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL,

    until the FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN

    (Romans 11:25).”

    What are the Gentiles brought INTO? What do they COME INTO? ISRAEL! They become part of ISRAEL, VIA THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM, THE FAITH OF CHRIST (THE SAME FAITH THEY BOTH HAD). They enter into ISRAEL, INTO GOD’S PEOPLE, via the NEW COVENANT.

    “And if some of the branches be broken off,

    and thou, being a WILD OLIVE TREE, wert GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM,

    and WITH THEM PARTAKEST

    OF THE ROOT AND FATNESS OF THE OLIVE TREE;

    (Romans 11:17).”

    The Christian, says Paul, is GRAFTED INTO THE OLIVE TREE OF ISRAEL. They become partakers of ISRAEL. They become the HERITAGE OF GOD, GOD’S PEOPLE. If they are God’s people, THEN THEY ARE PART OF GOD’S PROGRAM, and if part of the program, will they be a part of God’s blessings?

    “Boast NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES.

    But if thou boast,

    THOU BEAREST NOT THE ROOT, BUT THE ROOT THEE

    (Romans 11:18).”

    Paul warns Christians against boasting against Israel, or to word it another way, TO NOT RUN ISRAEL DOWN SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY REJECT CHRIST. Do not sit there and point a finger at Israel, or hate Israel, or the Jew, because, says Paul, THEY ARE THE ROOT, AND THEY BEAR YOU, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

    There are many groups in America that HATE THE JEW. They claim all sorts of things against the Jew. They speak of a ZIONIST CONSPIRACY; they speak OF THE EVIL OF THE JEWS. They claim Israel is FALSE, and that God has UTTERLY CAST OFF ISRAEL, AND ALL OF THE PROMISES MADE TO ISRAEL HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED OVER TO THE CHURCH. Many of them even go so far as to say that Paul did not realize what was happening, and that Paul’s comments and theology are in grave error!! There are those who claim America is in fact comprised of ISRAEL’S LOST 10 TRIBES, and is in fact ISRAEL itself!! They accomplish this by taking all of the prophecies concerning MILLENNIAL ISRAEL, and applying them to America in this age, which she does fulfill!! However, it is a perversion of Scripture, and a DENIAL OF THE COVENANTS OF GOD.

    God did not forever cast off Israel. He merely put Israel upon a shelf for their rejection of Christ. Paul says so: “BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.” It means what it says. The key word there is UNTIL. There is a time coming in which the ABRAHAMIC, PALESTINIAN, AND OTHER COVENANTS WILL BE RESTORED BACK TO ISRAEL.

    One of the key parts of the grand delusion is THE DENIAL OF ISRAEL having a RIGHT TO THE COVENANTS OF GOD. The antichrist forces REPUDIATE THAT CLAIM, AND APPROPRIATE FOR THEMSELVES ALL OF THE COVENANTS. In their own ways and delusions, they claim they ARE ISRAEL. They claim they ARE THE REAL JEWS. This falsehood, this utter delusion, comes during the CHURCH AGE, and it comes from WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH!!

    That is a crucial point, for Christ Himself mentions them, and tells us that these “CHRISTIANS” who claim they are JEWS (ISRAEL), but ARE NOT, are under a rank deception, and full of hatred. He forces them to bow at the foot of REAL CHRISTIANS.

    “BEHOLD, I WILL MAKE THEM OF THE

    SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, WHICH SAY

    THEY ARE JEWS,

    AND

    ARE NOT,

    BUT

    DO LIE;

    BEHOLD, I WILL MAKE THEM TO COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE THY FEET, AND TO KNOW THAT I HAVE LOVED THEE (Revelation 3:9).”

    This comment was made to the Church of Philadelphia, the TRUE CHURCH OF THE LAST DAYS, A CHURCH CHRIST LOVED. This is a direct statement from Jesus Christ that during the latter times of the Church age, a MOVEMENT WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH ITSELF, will come AND SWEEP THE LAND. These so called “Christians” will claim THEY ARE JEWS, THE REAL JEWS!! They claim theyARE ISRAEL, THE REAL ISRAEL, and that they are the INHERITORS of all of the covenants of God, and that the REAL JEWS are liars, frauds, and impostors. They will, because they think they are THE TRUE JEWS, and they attempt to SET UP A KINGDOM OF GOD UPON EARTH, AND THEY PERVERT PROPHECY TO DO IT.

    They are LIARS, SAID CHRIST. AND THEY ARE FULL OF HATRED, and they ESPOUSE DOCTRINES THAT ARE AT THEIR ROOT WHITE SUPREMACIST! They hate not only the Jew, but they hate all other races not their own, as well as anyone who does not agree with their antichrist theology. THESE PEOPLE have various “ways” in which they make this claim. There are many dedicated and sincere Christians caught up in these movements, but they should remove themselves from them as fast as they can. Christ says these so called Christians, WHICH THEY ARE NOT, will BE FORCED TO BOW AND WORSHIP AT THE FOOT OF THE TRUE CHRISTIANS, WHO HAD TRUE LOVE IN THEIR HEART, NOT ONLY FOR THE JEWS, BUT FOR ALL PEOPLES OF THE WORLD.

    These groups claim in one form or another that they REPLACE ISRAEL, AND THE JEWS, AND THUS THEY BECOME THE TRUE JEWS, and THEY ALONE have the right to rule the world, and force their edicts upon everyone else. This is NOT TO SAY that Zionism, a movement of SOME (BUT NOT ALL) OF THE RICH MEN OF THE EARTH, does not make the same claim, for it does. That they try to bring about their one world government is a fact, for Isaiah 26 says they do, AND FAIL. This is not to say there are not high placed RICH Jews who are evil to their core and who are attempting to bring about a ZIONIST KINGDOM UPON EARTH, in which all other NON-JEWS are merely “animals”. All one has to do is read the Jewish Babylonian Talmud and other like works to find that out. Jeremiah 24 speaks of them as “evil figs”, so evil in fact, that they went beyond anything seen on planet earth! GOD WILL DESTROY THEM ALL IN HIS GOOD TIME. “Revenge is mine, saith the Lord.”

    But EVIL HEARTS are not the special privilege of some rich Jews, whites, or rich men of any race. THE EVIL HEART IS WITHIN ALL MEN, and the true conspirators ARE THE UNREGENERATE RICH MEN OF THE EARTH, OF ALL RACES, COLORS AND CREEDS.”

  • Carolyn

    John, I am aware of these teachings so I don’t have to read them again. I know we differ in our conclusions and of course the Catholic Church plays its part. It just does not fulfill all the parameters that are clearly defined in Scripture for Babylon the Great. I just cannot make the Vatican fit…

    I’m still wondering about the second beast that comes up out of the earth (a specific region)…the false prophet. Still pondering that one….could it be the pope? or the prophet Muhammed? or an assimilation of some sort….? Still room for some supernatural configurations and transformations by Lucifer and his New World Order.

    Revelation 16:12-14
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
    12 The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw three foul spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. 14 These are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

    The only thing I know for sure is that God’s Word is 100 percent accurate and history will once again bear this out. As for our speculations…time will tell…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marion

    John said: John Chingford said (see March 21 for full comment):
    “Remember Jesus said, ‘when you do these things to the least of my servant, you do it UNTO ME.’ Where were MOST of the apostles killed and MOST of the infant church martyred? Was it Jerusalem or Rome? Paul said in Phil. 3:10 ‘that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death.’
    Paul is saying that his death would be similar to the death of Jesus because he had become so united in fellowship with Jesus that (in a sense) Jesus died with him in Rome. So Jesus effectively died in Rome, through His people who were dying because Jesus suffered for ALL time…on the cross for ALLtime has suffered in ALL things like us.”

    You said: “WOW!! REALLY??? Is this “special revelation?” Perhaps you don’t remember that “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.” (Heb. 10:10)??? Paul stated that HE would be conformed to the death of CHRIST. You state that CHRIST’S death would be conformed to PAUL’S…OURS?? So much so that you now add to the word of God which explicity states Jesus died in Jerusalem and ‘in a sense’ He now DIES (again) with Paul in ROME??? Paul NEVER inferred such a thing!! What kind of blasphemy is this???”

    No Marion, John is scripturally RIGHT. This is not special revelation. Calling him a blasphemer because you do not understand this verse is where I draw the line. Go and study your scripture properly. John is NOT saying Jesus’s death would be conformed to ours, NOR does he say that Christ died AGAIN. Jesus said, ‘when you do these things to the least of my servant, you do it UNTO ME.’

    Understand this one and for all, JERUSELEM is NOT RESPONSIBLE until deaths to Christians and Jews alike, and JERUSALEM IS NOT RESPONSIBLE MYSTERY BABYLON. Yes there are be Jews following the Babalonian religion today, but the CITY with the most impact is the VATICAN and ROMAN CATHOLICISM.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Sorry Carolyn, but the USA aint that MYSTERY BABYLON either, just like Austrailia, or any country in Europe for that matter (barring the Rome). South Africa too declared that it was a Christian nation many years ago and now they are wanting to put stickers on Jewish products (basically informing people not to buy). Oh my!!! South Africa is Mystery Babylon!!!

    To deny that it’s the Vatican is just plain silly.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, I will not stand for you to quote and promote a FALSE TEACHER. Stewart Best is not only a false teacher, but he promotes an unbiblical methodology counterfeit “gospel” that is OCCULTIC & DEMONIC!

    Stewart is explicitly clear in his teaching that Christians enter into their subconscious mind or human spirit on their journey to “authentic” regeneration:
    Notice therefore that ONE MUST LEAVE THE OUTER COURT, THE OUTER VISUAL AND CONSCIOUS RELIGIOUS WORSHIP AND PRAISE AND SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM IT ALL AND ENTER INTO THEIR SUBCONSCIOUS INNER COURT. They must journey through the regions of the hidden man, the playground of Satan and his demons, THE REALM OF THE SPIRIT. As they journey through this region, they will be exposed to the REAL TRUTH OF THEIR DESTITUTE HEART.
    (Quoted from Dark Light Series Chapter Heart and Soul) bold emphasis added
    http://libertytothecaptives.net/stewart_best_narrow_way_doc.html

    His website and media productions are chock full of garbage, including the “America is Babylon” nonsense.

    Carolyn, you are treading on serious ground here. You have been bewitched!
    You reject a brother who takes the Scriptures seriously and rightly divides them and instead embrace this guy who is obviously a sandwich short of a picnic.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, just to further show your horrible mistake in promoting Stewart Best, he, like his co-kook, James Lloyd who shares his “America is Babylon” nonsense, believes in an alien invasion, the return of hte Nephilim, a FALSE teaching!! This guy is off the charts! Please do your due diligence and then come back and clear this up by owning the mistake. We all have made them and the important thing is that we are not guilty of causing others to stumble.

    This is NOT an endorsemenet of this site, but it fully EXPOSES both Lloyd and Best for what they are:

    new Stewart Best & Todd Bentley Agree on “White Light”
    Debunking Dark Light: The Two Hearts of Man

    Summation of What I Intend to Prove in the Debunking Dark Light Articles

    Debunking Dark Light: Stewart Best Teaches Initiation Equals Regeneration

    Stewart Best Says Faith Has Nothing to Do With Regeneration

    Debunking Dark Light: Oneness With God–Occult Counterpart to the New Birth

    Stewart Best and The Book of Zero Options: Satan is God With a Capital G?

    Stewart Best: The Book of Zero Options: New Age Descriptions For the Bible

    Article #3 IF The Bible is True, God Will Verify Himself?

    Stewart Best and Left Behind: Antichrist Parallels

    Occult Terminology/Teachings in Stewart Best’s Dark Light Book

    New Age Gospel of Stewart Best

    James Lloyd warning new!

    Stewart Best’s Narrow Way Occult Methodology: Conscious Connection With One’s Human Spirit

    “Narrow Way” That Leads to the New Age

    [edited - no links?]

  • Carolyn

    Redeemed, with respect, you are still not accepting my apology at face value, since you are attributing an unkind spirit to what I said when there was none intended.

    As for Stewart Best, I have been to his site, read some of his articles (not all) but certainly enough to know that his salvation message is that we come to Christ by being born again. His idea about the dark light is that many have come to God through a different gospel that is no gospel at all and even if they do miracles or do good works or go to daily confessionals at the Catholic Church and even if they were baptized in the Church, without the rebirth, the light in them is dark and it will not benefit them.

    I won’t be calling Stewart Best names any time soon, just as I won’t be saying mean things about you or Debs. If I was to get my information about Debs from someone else’s discernment site, taking phrases out of context, I could come up with some very distorted views on people’s opinions of her teaching. However, I have read the material and the salvation message she presents for myself, therefore I cannot condemn her as a heretic. As we have agreed in past comments, discernment is not an excuse to hate and attack each other, but a chance to expose the deception that masquerades as truth.

    Also discussed is the fact that we have differences of opinion and are at different stages in our Christian walk. We have not all reached the stage of maturity that the Lord is taking us to. We’re still on the journey. We have seen from past experience, the tongue can be used for good or for evil. It is, as James says, a restless evil full of deadly poison when we allow bitterness or malice to control us. My prayer is that God keep me humble and obedient to Christ’s command to love even those that hate me.

    Debs, I read Dave Hunt’s book on the Woman Ride’s the Beast a few years back. Then I read Richard Coombe’s “America the Babylon”. As expressed in an earlier post, I cannot make the Vatican fit the criteria laid out for Babylon the Great. Some things would fit but much doesn’t fit. Recently, I have become more sure that America is indeed the Woman riding some form of the UN Beast and that it’s Freemason counterparts operating through Catholicism, the Apostate Church and the ruling elite of the New World Order will work together to bring Lucifer’s agenda to full realization. There is still some supernatural mystery to the whole operation. With respect, I don’t believe we can easily dismiss America. Just so, we cannot easily dismiss Islam but not sure what the final alliance will look like. Things are changing at such a rapid pace, we can only see the partial picture. The only thing that remains unchanged and unshaken is the Word of God.

    Anyhow, I remain watchful, as instructed by our Lord. And hopefully, we remain agreed on the things that matter…the true gospel.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Okay… you can think that the USA is Mystery Babylon :) lol. But I will pray that your eyes get pointed back to the Vatican soon ;)

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, I DID accept your apology. But I believe sincerely that you have stepped into a carefully laid trap and because Best shares your view of “America is Babylon” you have settled into his nest.

    Very dangerous and serious mistake sister. Only a quick perusal of his website reveals how far out in left field he is. If you can’t see that, I have a very deep concern for you and am only trying to help you.

    Best is embedded with James Lloyd’s organization and Lloyd is a well-documented kook. Best is not clearly stating the Gospel, but is putting a mystical, New Age type spin on it. Very spooky stuff.

    You follow him at your peril and my exhortation was motivated by love and concern, not a desire to argue. But of course you are free to follow anyone you choose. I do pray that you will discern and won’t be leading others into this black hole.

    You seem hung up on determining just who “Babylon” is, definitely a “back burner” topic when compared to the importance of sound biblical doctrine. Stewart Best is more concerned with promoting strange ideas than with sound biblical doctrine.

    This site promotes sound biblical doctrine and you would be hard pressed to find fault with that. In fact, people like Best are outed here and warnings sounded to protect the precious flock of the Lord. The flock needs to be protected from those of Best’s ilk. In fact, the Bible instructs us to do just that.

  • John Chingford

    Marion

    You said:

    “WOW!! REALLY??? Is this “special revelation?” Perhaps you don’t remember that “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.” (Heb. 10:10)??? Paul stated that HE would be conformed to the death of CHRIST. You state that CHRIST’S death would be conformed to PAUL’S…OURS?? So much so that you now add to the word of God which explicity states Jesus died in Jerusalem and ‘in a sense’ He now DIES (again) with Paul in ROME??? Paul NEVER inferred such a thing!! What kind of blasphemy is this???”

    You then went on to describe that you thought me to be a “devious, unsound, irreverent, contemptuous” person, simply because of ONE piece of scripture interpretation of mine. You also said “John: Do I read your blog? In a word…NO!”

    The truth is that you completely twisted what I ACTUALLY said by leaving out an important section to “deviously, unsoundly, disrespectfully, contemptuously” twist what I said to make me look really bad in the sight of all Debs readers worldwide!!! It is very rude/impolite/dismissive (not that much Christian grace shown by you) to dismiss me as a person so eagerly and decide to totally reject my blog WITHOUT EVEN LOOKING AT IT ??????

    Regarding your accusation of me being a blasphemer because of an interpretation I gave on just ONE passage of scripture. It was not a new “secret revelation” given to me but describing a very popular well known interpretation given by other scholars of the Bible. I was simply trying to show that there WAS an explanation available to the verses you quoted as a rebuttal to your argument. Whether our interpretation is right or wrong, it STILL remains that there IS a plausible argument that cannot be ignored.

    Let us NOW look at what I ACTUALLY said AND NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OUT and see if it was as blasphemous as you are trying to make me look:

    “Remember Jesus said “when you do these things to the least of my servants, you do it UNTO ME”. Where were MOST of the apostles killed and MOST of the infant church martyred? Was it Jerusalem or Rome? Paul said in Phil 3:10 “that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death

    Paul is saying that his death would be similar to the death of Jesus because he had become so united in fellowship with Jesus that (in a sense) Jesus died with him in Rome.

    The book of Revelation states that Egypt and Sodom was a “figurative” place. It represented cities/countries that opposed God’s purposes. Jerusalem partially opposed their messiah – especially the Jewish leadership (thousands upon thousands of Jews, didn’t ,though). Rome reached a point where in its ENTIRETY it sought to destroy all believers. Jesus called the church His body and effectively those who destroy the body of Christ (believers) are actually seeking to destroy Him.

    So, Jesus effectively died in Rome through His people who were dying because Jesus suffered for ALL time (past, present and future) on the cross and for ALL time has suffered in ALL things like us. “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin” Hebrews 4:15”

    Marion you said:
    “You state that CHRIST’S death would be conformed to PAUL’S…OURS?? NO I DID NOT!!!” Show me where I said that. Where did you get the idea that I was suggesting such a blasphemy????

    Let me show you what I was ACTUALLY saying:

    Notice Paul said “that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the ,fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death” Philippians 3:10

    I was trying to show that if we (like the apostle Paul) become so filled with the Holy Spirit, so in tune with God and arrive at the place where we can also say “I am crucified with Christ” Gal 2:20 and “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price:” 1 Cor 6:19-20

    Then we are also in that same place where WE TOO (like Paul) are being conformed to the death of Christ. Jesus stated in Matthew 25:40 “Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

    Jesus identifies Himself with us and with our pain being a high priest who has also been touched with OUR infirmity “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin”. Hebrews 4:15

    When His people suffer, HE suffers with us, being the perfect intercessor. So when His people are being martyred surely Jesus (who said “behold I am with you until the very end”) is there with us as we are dying for Him. Therefore (IN A VERY REAL SENSE – or “figuratively” [i.e symbolically]) He is being placed on the cross again, by the haters of Christ, when they kill His servants for upholding His Name.

    Of course, the death of Jesus was TOTALLY unique and CANNOT be repeated as it is a once for all time sacrifice for our sins. ONLY Jesus could die for our sins. Our death cannot replicate the death of Christ, BUT we can enter into the fellowship of His sufferings by dying as martyrs. When we do so, we are dying as Christ’s representatives/ambassadors and therefore the Christ haters are trying to kill Jesus, all over again by killing us. The Book of Revelation states “where Christ FIGURATIVELY died. The key word is “FIGURATIVE” which means symbolic of.

    It DOES NOT state where He physically died but rather where He figuratively died, doesn’t it? Therefore, it is not conclusively referring to Jerusalem but probably referring to Rome.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marion

    Something I have learnt to do on this blog is apologize a lot for making mistakes, I would ask the same of you, to please apologize to John.

  • Redeemed

    Marion, I too hope that you will see how you unjustly leveled unwarranted attacks and accusations against a brother in Christ who has taken the time to rightly divide the Word of God and share it.

    You display an attitude of pride in that you state that you would not ever read John’s blog. Why not Marion? Perhaps if you did you might learn something. But you have passed judgment on John’s heart by calling him a blasphemer and other vicious names. God holds us accountable for falsely accusing our brothers and sisters in Christ. Yes, exhort and rebuke, but this is beyond the pale. Marion, do you realize how very serious this is?

    For your own sake Marion, I hope and pray that you will humble yourself and apologize to John. He has adequately explained himself and deserves a response.

  • John Chingford

    Marion

    Now that a further 5 weeks has gone by, I come to 2 conclusions. Either you are unwilling to retract from your accusation by apologising or you have not revisited this blog and not seen my above replies. I choose to believe the latter. Please know that IF you do visit this blog again and DO open up this page that I am very happy to accept your apology. However (for your own sake) it would be a nice humble thing to actually do this publicly (in the light of your serious public accusation).

  • John Chingford

    Marion

    If you would prefer to write to me by email (instead) then please feel free to do so. You can find my email address on the left hand side of my blog under the sub heading “my contact details”. My blog address is:

    http://www.watchmanforjesus.blogspot.co.uk/

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Marion

    Yes it would be nice if you could/would apologize to John. Thanks :)

  • Debra

    I have been reading all the comments on the: “Mystery Babylon” article. If you do some research on who basically owns and controls the Vatican, it should shed some light on this subject. Mystery Babylon the Great Catholic or Jewish?
    Thank you for all the time and work that goes into this
    web site and the sincere desire to seek the truth concerning to all things pertaining to God and His Word. (It is a very rare thing to find in these last days.)

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