Torben Søndergaard – Last Reformation of Lies

Torben Søndergaard - Last ReformationThere is a Danish Pastor called Torben Søndergaard doing the rounds and I’ve been asked 3 times now what I think of him.  It’s time to do an article on this guy.

I received a comment from a Discerning the World reader who said:

“I have just found this page recently and I find it very interesting. It confuses me right now, but hopefully it will clear up later, when I read more. So I would like to ask you about a danish evangelist Torben Sondergaard.   Here is a link to his youtube page:  https://www.youtube.com/user/DanishEvangelist

What do you think is it Kundalini?”

So off I went to analyse the following video: Last Reformation

A Baptism unto Repentance

A few things really stick out for me in this video, but don’t run away after reading the below, stick around to the end of article for the best of this man’s doctrine.

  • In the video at 1:13 min they say you get baptised (in water) FOR THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS – this is 100% not biblical.  Let’s see why:

(Acts 19:4)  “Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

John the Baptist’s baptism in water was a baptism of repentance, but when Jesus Came, you are to be spiritually baptised into the One and only Baptism of Jesus Christ.

“And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 2:38).

When you are genuinely born again you prayed to Jesus Christ and you repented to Jesus Christ and ask Him for forgiveness of all your sins and because of this you are automatically spiritually baptized into the One and only Baptism of the Jesus Christ, there after the Holy Spirit will come to abide in you permanently.

  •  Baptism in water was for Jewish unbelievers. We are gentiles and we believe solely by faith and we do not need to be baptized in water.  It is very important for the Pentecostal/Charismatic/Apostolic and Prophetic/Hebrew Roots Movement to baptize people in water:
    • These pastors believe they are part of the Apostolic succession (the same as the Catholic Church) and today’s so called Christian church is supposed to be part of the false doctrine of the lost tribes of Israel and we apparently need to ‘realize’ this and be part of the Last Reformation that the Vatican is raising so as to enter and take over Jerusalem with their one world religion.
    • Baptizing you in water is a way of taking you back to the Hebrew way of doing things, and you push Jesus Christ completely out of the picture as the One who forgives you of your sin, instead the immersion in water is what forgives you instead.

(Matthew 3:11-12)  John the Baptist says: “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ”

(John 1:33)  “And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

What’s the point of us being baptised in water? When you are born again you are automatically SPIRITUALLY baptised by Jesus Christ onto the One and Only baptism there is, where after the Holy Spirit comes to live in you. Now you go and dunk yourself in a swimming pool, a bath tub? For what? As a work? To complete your salvation? For forgiveness of sin?  No.

I found another video of Torben Søndergaard:

A Torben Søndergaard hijack with a gospel of non repentance

Torben Søndergaard hijacks you on the spot, does a willy nilly prayer with you, lays hands on you in the street, or dunks you under water at a baptism, a demon manifests (but does not actually leave), and then he lays hands on you again and forces that Spirit of FIRE into you until you speak in tongues, which according to Torben Søndergaard proves you are now truly saved.  According to the doctrine of Pentecostalism, if you can’t speak in tongues, then you are not saved.   See here:  Pentecostalism

This “The Last Reformation” Torben speaks about is none other than the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) / Latter Rain Movement.  It is actually part and parcel of the Hebrew Roots Movement as well, all bound together in a nice Roman Catholic purple ribbon.  All these false movements intertwine like a thorny bush.

Steps to a ‘Torben salvation’:

  1. Ask to pray for a person, any person, hijack them in the street or a store if necessary, and lay your lands on them if possible.
  2. Torben Søndergaard prays in tongues over the person – one can only shudder as to what demonic entity he is communicating with.
  3. Person will mostly manifest a demon (Satan has to put on a show after all).
  4. Person screams, rolls around on the floor etc, and demon supposedly flees.  However the person is shocked at the manifestation and will genuinely believe they are free from any demonic affliction when in fact they are not.
  5. Torben Søndergaard now has to force his ‘false Holy Spirit of Fire’ onto the person to get them to RECEIVE the Spirit of Fire (another demonic entity).
  6. Spirit of FIRE enters person and they start to speak in tongues, convulse, jerk, have visions, etc.
  7. Person now worships God, praises Jesus, and is ‘Torben born again’ due to the fact that they can now speak in gibberish tongues.

The Full Gospel

The term ‘Full Gospel’ (Pentecostalism) does not mean ‘the full gospel of the bible’, but the full gospel of all so called Christian faiths mingled into one, including Calvinism – this is why it’s so easy for someone to fall from Pentecostalism into Calvinism (NG Kerk) and Calvinism back into Pentecostalism because the doctrine of ELECTION is present in both movements.  And ‘full gospel’ is exactly what you will see Torben’s Last Reformation is all about… as he takes bits and pieces from every so called Christian doctrine and mingles them together.

What does Torben Søndergaard believe?

Torben Søndergaard is part of the Oneness Pentecostal sect.  He believes he is a self appointed apostle with a “Last Reformation” belief system.  He claims that “about 90 percent of all the people, that he or others in his team pray for, are healed”.  [8]  Lack of healing is caused by a lack of faith which is Word of Faith doctrine to the core.

Søndergaard has created his own little belief system by “taking a little from some different” denomination,[16] for example, baptismal regeneration from the Catholics, speaking in tongues as the sign of baptism in the Holy Spirit from the Pentecostals, believer’s baptism as Baptists, and baptism to Jesus Christ not using the Trinitarian formula as Oneness Pentecostals.

Contrary to almost any other Christian denomination, he teaches that salvation for a Christian is completed through baptism in water not using the Trinitarian formula,[19] as well as through baptism in the Holy Spirit with the manifestation of speaking in tongues, often saying “dadadaadadadaa.”[20] [21][22][23][24] He also teaches that just as Jesus received the Holy Spirit through water baptism, it is through baptism that a Christian receives the Holy Spirit.  Søndergaard regards receiving the Holy Spirit as having substituted receiving Jesus.[25]

Torben has visions and receives a book from God

Søndergaard claims to receive visions of Heaven and Hell directly from God. According to Torben Søndergaard, God made him time travel back to before he was born as a confirmation[27].

After fasting for 40 days Torben Søndergaard also believes that God revealed a self-help book for him,[28] saying “I will give you one chapter each day”.[29]

Todd Bentley and Torben Søndergaard’s Last Reformation

In 2003, Torben Søndergaard invited the controversial tele-evangelist and faith healer Todd Bentley to Denmark[34]. According to people present, Todd Bentley said:

“In the Bible, in John 5 provides a healing outpouring – the Pool of Bethesda, which means an outpouring of grace. The Bible says that a quantity of sick, blind, lame and crippled came to this place, the pool of Bethesda… “[35][36]

In 2015, Torben Søndergaard quoted this as a prediction of Torben Søndergaard’s own work in Denmark:

“10 years ago, a man came from the US to Denmark with a prophetic word to us our country. The word was that Denmark would become known as the Pool of Bethesda. That is a place where the sick could experience salvation and healing. He said that it would not only be one or two places, but it would be all over the country. Yes, no matter where you came in Denmark, there would be people who would ask for one and set one free… Yes, I believe we are seeing the fulfilment of the word that sounded over Denmark.” [35][37]

You can read more about Torben here!

Torben Søndergaard tries to explain Speaking in Tongues the Torben way:

…and acknowledges the Catholic Church from 1:42 in the video.

Charismatic Catholics at Mass all Speaking in Tongues.

If Pentecostalism believes that speaking in tongues is evidence of salvation:

  • Are they saying that Roman Catholics who speak in tongues are born again as well?

Many Christians will fall into deception because of this ‘speaking in tongues’ phenomenon and the Spirit of Fire that accompanies speaking in tongues.  Many genuine Christians will think they are missing out on something special if they don’t speak in gibberish – that God favours those who speak in tongues more than those who don’t. I mean let’s get serious now, how many of you reading this article thought to yourself, “why do they get this gift and I don’t? I want to speak to God in an unknown language as well!”  It’s called jealously, wanting something that someone else has (all be it unbiblical and totally ungodly).  And this sin of ‘jealousy‘ among other sins such as wanting the ‘power‘ to speak to God in an unknown language that makes the believer feel that because he/she can now speak in tongues they are on another spiritual level or more powerful than those who can’t, and don’t tell me you have never thought of this!  Because you will be lying to yourself and worst of all God Himself.

Torben says himself at 6:44 into the ‘Speaking in Tongues video‘ above that speaking in tongues is an amazing gift that EVERYONE should have because if you are not baptised in the Holy Spirit well according to Torben you are not saved, and that speaking in tongues is an amazing tool God has given us to come into a strong prayer life and relationship with him

So if you don’t speak in tongues you are:

  1. Not saved.
  2. Not spiritual enough.
  3. Have a weak personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or don’t have a relationship with Jesus Christ at all.
  4. Your prayers in your native language are so weak Jesus Christ does not even hear them, that’s why God prefers you to speak to Him in a prayer language instead.
  5. Or worst, you are possibly even demon possessed according to Torben and this is what is blocking the ‘false Holy Spirit’ from entering you and baptising you in FIRE.

Torben Søndergaard even speaks about people being baptised multiple times;  two, three and even four times in the following video, and he quotes Acts 19 to back up this teaching. He says that people that were baptised by John the Baptist needed to be baptised again by the Holy Spirit.  Torben in that instance yes, because their baptism was a baptism unto repentance, now they had to be baptised by the Holy Spirit into believing in Christ Jesus.  Today believer’s are not baptised John the Baptist and there is no need to be re-baptised over and over and over again – they either believe by FAITH in Jesus Christ the Son of God or they don’t.   Let’s have a look at Acts 19 shall we to see what the Bible has to say, not what Torben has to say:

Acts 19:1-7 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said to them, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And they said to him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said to them, To what then were you baptized? And they said, To John’s baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

As we can see, being baptised by the Holy Spirit in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ doesn’t involve any laying on of hands, just BELIEVING.  Paul needed these disciples to preach in the area and therefore laid hands on them and the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues (earthly languages) and prophesied.  So TWO SEPERATE things happened here; 1) they were baptised by the Holy Spirit just by BELIEVING in Jesus Christ – no signs and wonders 2) Paul then needed them to go out and preach and he laid hands on them to speak in tongues (earthly languages) and prophecy.  After the time of the book of Acts came to an end, speaking in tongues and prophecy ceased.

1 Corinthians 13:8  “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”

The FIRE that is called down from heaven in the last days by the Antichrist and his ‘ministers of righteousness’ (2 Corinthians 11:15) will lead to the wild fire spread of speaking in tongues.

Rev 13:13  “13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men”

The fire that is called down from heaven by the beast that being the Roman Catholic church is 1) spiritual/demonic which leads to a satanic awakening and 2) the Antichrist himself will call down actual fire from heaven in the sight of men.

CONCLUSION

Be careful, God will warn you many times that playing with FIRE is dangerous, and in the end will hand you over to the delusion you begged and pleaded for because you refuse to repent.

2 Thess 2:7-12   “7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

For all those caught up in this demonic mess and want to be set free please read this article:   Seeking Salvation or Deliverance?

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

51 Responses

  1. Ken says:

    Hi, 2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    Who do you think “he that letteth” is and “the mystery of iniquity” is?

  2. Hi Ken

    Actually let’s ask you, since you unsubscribed from DTW. Who do you think “he that letteth” is and “the mystery of iniquity” is?

  3. Ken says:

    Hi Debra I unsubscribed because when I came back to see if my comment was still there it wasn’t so I figured that I must not have checked off One of the boxes and the reason why my comment wasn’t posted anymore. So I resubscribed when I saw your answer.
    I never could figure this one out and wondered why Paul was being secretive about it so I did some research and it didn’t take long in my opinion to clear it up from what someone else suggested and I tend to agree that Paul didn’t want to unnecessarily bring trouble to the believers by alerting the Roman government that it was they “who letteth” until letteth is taken away making room for the rise of that wicked one which I knew was the antichrist. As you know the anti christ eventually infiltrated the Roman church when Emperor Constantine supposedly became a believer in Christ. And that’s when pagan Idols were introduced into the church and many years after maybe about 425 ad the Vatican And it’s spokesperson the antichrist papacy was born.
    Your thoughts?

  4. Hi Ken

    Ahhhh ok, phewwww, I was expecting a huge lambasting from Torben’s followers so I was expecting the worst when I woke up this morning. Thank you for your kind reply to my comment. :friends:

    You said “Paul didn’t want to unnecessarily bring trouble to the believers by alerting the Roman government”

    Even Jesus Christ when being questioned by the pharisees who were trying so desperately to get him arrested said:

    (Mark 12:17) “And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.”

    We must realise that the Roman Church (mystery Babylon) was there from the very beginning, 2 Thessalonians 2:7 “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work” since the time of Babylon, and can be spoken about in past, present and future tense, it can be spoken about as a government, a beast system, a computer system, as a new world order, as a religion or multiple religions, it can be seen as an individual, or many individuals all over the world with their followers. Many nations have been ruled by antichrists as the centuries have gone by (even Kim Jong Un is an antichrist over North Korea – he actually believes he is Jesus Christ).

    (1 John 2:18) “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

    And just as there are many rulers all over the world who are antichrist, there are the followers from each and every non Christian religion who are themselves antichrist.

    (2 John 1:7) “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

    (1 John 2:22) “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”

    But at the start of the Tribulation the whole world will be ruled by The Antichrist that man of lawlessness in (2 Thessalonians 2:1–12) who will come on the world scene at the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

    Then we have The False Prophet (let’s not forget about him) and the beast system that will control everyone (that being the internet) just as there was a system to control everyone during Roman times where you could not buy or sell without providing a stamped paper by the Caesar where it stated you had pledging allegiance to Caesar and worshiped him as God), then we have the Vatican (and every organisation that works with it) as it builds up it’s One World Religion (made up of many antichrist world regions) which once again make up mystery Babylon.

    (Matthew 24:21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    You said “As you know the anti christ eventually infiltrated the Roman church when Emperor Constantine supposedly became a believer in Christ.”

    I believe that the Roman Catholic church were pagan from the word go, even St Peter’s church is not the Apostle Peter but Simon Peter Magus the magician (Peter never ever went to Rome). It was Emperor Constantine who was pagan and supposedly converted to Christianity because his mother Helena was supposedly Christian – so he took Pagan Roman and made it Christian, when the emperor became a Christian it meant that the Roman empire became Christian, or should we say Catholic…and the persecution of Jews continued by Rome (disguised as Christianity)…

  5. Oopsie, another one of those guys who never read their Bibles, except the parts that supposedly support their false teachings.

    A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Matthew 16:4).

    Signs and wonders are no longer given to prod people into believing the Gospel (like it was done with the Jews who were always looking for a sign – 1 Corinthians 1:22-25; 14:22). I am sure those who look for signs don’t want Jesus to leave and depart from them. Yet they persist in their false doctrines. How foolish can you get?

  6. Edmund says:

    Torben, like Bentley and many others, have another spirit, which is not Holy Spirit, and they deceive many people (2 Cor 11:4; 13). The greatest need of believers today is discernment, which is lacking even among many church leaders.
    Now, my beloved Deborah, let me tell you that “cessationism” is utterly false and is a doctrine of demons and not a doctrine of Christ. God has not stopped working, and He is still the same, yesterday, today and forever (Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8; John 14:12; Mark 16:17-18). This false doctrine has led to so many dead churches across Europe, America and other parts of the world, and many churches that are still standing are like dead men walking! Instead of crying, “cessationism,” we should repent and ask the Lord to restore His gifts to the church.
    You need to learn a lesson from a guy near you in South Africa, whose name is Erlo Stegen. After 12 years of fruitless labor among the Zulus, he felt like a cessationist, until the Lord showed up mightily to transform his ministry. Go there now, to see for yourself what the Lord is doing among the Zulus!!

  7. Edmund says:

    Tom, if you guys think God has stopped working signs and miracles, good for you, but this is not a doctrine of Christ! Is it any wonder churches that believe in “cessationism” are like cemeteries, just like their seminaries, dead, without life and without power?

  8. You seem to be one of the members of this wicked and adulterous generation who is forever seeking after signs and wonders, and if they don’t get it, they can’t believe.

  9. Dear Edmund

    Oh dear, it seems you think that because one believes what the LIVING WORD OF GOD says that tongues and prophecy (foretelling the future) has ceased that God, His WORD and His church are dead. We are not cessationists Edmund. I’ve been convicted of my sinful life, was born again and baptised by the Holy Spirit (miracle), I prayed DIRECTLY to Jesus Christ and He delivered me from smoking (miracle) and at the same time Jesus Christ healed my lungs. I never asked for healing, But HE healed me (miracle). And since then I’ve had miracles happen in my life (that I don’t seek after or ask for) where God looks after me in ways I can’t comprehend. God and HIS WORD are ALIVE.

    I feel sorry for you, forever seeking a sign, and if you don’t get one I wonder what you will do Edmund?

    You said “He is still the same, yesterday, today and forever”

    Yes He is! :smile: Now please tell me why no one spoke tongues in the Old Testament?

    Regarding Erlo Stegen, yes I’ve heard he has created himself a multi-million Rand enterprise aQuelleSA spring-water off the hard work of poor congregants. He lives in luxury while the congregants have to work for the mission service only and are not allowed to earn money elsewhere to support their families. Sounds like a cult to me. So much so that Erlo Stegen says that to depeart from his mission is ungodly, he says:

    “That is why it is madness when suddenly somebody departs. For a person to leave revived Christians is senseless. If he says that God leads him out, the devil is his god. Christians who are of one heart and one soul and then one does not work together- don’t have anything to do with such a person; until he acknowledges his senseless deed and repents.” —https://www.ksb-alert.com/evidence-for-a-doctrine-of-exclusion-at-ksb/

  10. Edmund says:

    [DELETED by DTW – You appear to be very very confused, Azuza Street revival was a legitimate move of God? Seriously? I tell you what, go and cause confusion elsewhere.]

  11. Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest prophet of all time. (Matthew 11:11). Yet, he never performed miracles; he never spoke in tongues; he never slew people in the spirit. I was waiting for Edmund to accuse me of cessationism, but you, Debs, have done a splendid job. That’s more or less what I would have answered him.

  12. Goodoesgood says:

    I don’t know about Torben, but whoever wrote this article doesn’t seem to be a very good person. The negativity is tangible.

  13. Goodoesgood

    The “The negativity is tangible.”?? Do you see the colour of my Aura as well?

    Here is a positive message for you:

    Matthew 4:17 “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

  14. Ian says:

    Deborah, (I forgot to tick the agree box and it came back with no comment; all the boxes were in red so I decided to rewrite – just in caase there seems to be a double comment (similar not identical).

    The comment in the above post needs to be addressed…
    “Baptism in water was for Jewish unbelievers. We are gentiles and we believe solely by faith and we do not need to be baptized in water.”…
    it is not Scriptural.
    Whose opinion is that in the quote?
    Jesus commanded His disciples to make disciples in all nations and to baptize them. Matt 28
    Philip baptized Gentiles – Acts 8
    Peter baptized Gentiles – Acts 10
    Paul baptized Gentiles – Acts 19 – 1 Cor 1.

    Faith is not a passive thing. It is dynamic and active just like the Word of God – for both the Word and faith in Jesus Christ are from Jesus. He gives us His faith through hearing with spiritual ears His words.
    Biblical faith is dead if it has no works.
    Paul points out what kind of works he dismisses – ‘works of Law’ (of Moses). He says this 6 times in Galatians and once in Romans.
    The list of faithful in Heb 11 were people of faith – acting on God’s word.
    Abel believed God and proved it by offering up the acceptable sacrifice. It was God’s work.
    Naoh would not have been saved if he had just believed and did not build. God was in the building.
    Abraham had to offer up his son not just hear God’s word and passively believe. It was God’s work – His command – not Abraham’s idea.
    Gideon could not have set Israel free if he had not done what God required. God was working and Gideon joined in with active faith.

    The people Jesus told their faith had healed them, did things – that was the faith – it was demonstrable. They yelled out louder when told to shut up; they pressed in more even though the crowd was thick, they returned to thank Jesus when the others just sailed on.
    When God is in the act, then it is not a human initiiated work but God’s work.
    It says of Jesus – that He was obedient even to the death on the cross – that was His faith in His Father and His Word – obedience.

    Jesus command to baptize in water was for Jews and Gentiles.

  15. Hi Ian. May I ask, were you baptized with a little water or lots and lots of water? Would you say today’s water is holier than the water John the Baptist used? Why is water not mentioned in the baptism John the Baptist described Jesus would initiate? Let me remind you what Paul wrote.

    For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (1 Corinthians 1:17).

    Oops. Naughty Paul of Tarsus. He disobeyed Jesus. Can you believe it? Shame on you, Paul!

  16. Ian says:

    Tom
    When I was baptized in water I was fully immersed in the water in the Name of the Lord as per Matthew 28. I was a believer in Jesus Christ though quite young about ten years and I remember the place – I have the date somewhere written down. Believers are to be baptized according to the command of Jesus Christ.

    You ask – ” Why is water not mentioned in the baptism John the Baptist described Jesus would initiate?”
    John was right – he was prophesying concerniing our Lord Jesus Christ – who would baptize in the Holy Ghost anad with fire. But this was to take place after His ascension at which time He would send the promise of the Father – which Jesus spoke about during His life time on earth.
    But this does not negate anything.

    We also read in John 4 – “Then when the Lord knew that the Pharisees heard that Jesus made more disciples and baptized more than John (though truly Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), John 4:1-2.

    Here we have two facts.
    1. John bar Zebedee says that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John.
    2. John says that it was really the disciples that did the baptizing rather than Jesus.
    Is this a contradiction? No.
    It is recorded that Herod beheaded John the baptizer. Mark 6:16. Herod even says so himself. But in actual fact it was not Herod’s hands that beheaded John but a soldier. Is there a contradiction? No.
    Herod delegated the task to his subordinate. But Herod recognized that it was he who did it because he gave the command.
    God charges David with murder of Uriah. But it was not David’s hands that killed Uriah. But David had issued the order. It is all a matter of heart condition and delegation according to authority. The bucks stops with the one who gives the order. And this was the case with Jesus and those baptized by Him – that is His disciples. The disciples would not have baptized anybody if Jesus had not commanded them to do so – you would agree with that wouldn’t you?
    That being the case it is right to think that Jesus baptized people by virtue of the fact that He would have ordered His disciples to do so. He gets the honour for all things that we do according to His command.

    As I had said – Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize in water those they were to disciple in the word and way of the Lord.

    Paul did not disobey Jesus. Paul makes it plain in the opening remarks of hs first letter to Corinthian believers that he did baptize some people. That is a fact. But this was not an act of disobedience. Jesus did not say to him – “You shall not baptize anyone”. If He had – Paul would not have baptized one single person such was his love for his Lord.
    Paul chose not to baptize any more than he had because he did not want Christians to follow him in a cultish way….as some do today – look how many disciples WE (I) have got!! Even so, that was an issue he did address in his letter.

    When Paul says he was not sent to baptize – he is not talking about a command forbidding him to do so. He is speaking about his main focus – to preach. If Paul had have been commanded NOT to baptize anyone – he would not have baptized one single person. And he would not have been party to anyone with him baptizing anyone – not Silas to Timothy or Barnabas. Paul was the chief speaker – the leader if you like and there is no doubt in my mind that he delegated the task of baptizing, to others like Barnabas and Silas etc.

    Many use the argument that Jesus saved the repentant thief on the cross with no mention of baptism – as proof conclusive that baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
    This is an ignorant conclusion.
    The thief was under heavy Roman guard and even if it could possibly have happened it would never have happened under their watch – they would have lost their lives for dereliction of duty.
    The simple facts are:
    Jesus could not baptize – He wa nailed to the cross.
    The disciples could not, would not baptize because they had been all scattered as sheep; though John was there as a possible baptizer, the whole work of evangelizing had come to a stop because of the world shattering event taking place on Golgotha.
    What Jesus said to the thief who repented is an example for all those facing imminent death – it being fully imnpossible for them to submit to getting baptized. God is merciful and does not impose on those who are completely unable to be baptized such as the thief, to be baptized. God is not unreasonable or unjust.

    Baptizing people according to the command of Jesus Christ does not make the preaching of the gosple of christ of no effect. The whole matter of water baptism is wholly connected to Jesus death, His burial and His resurrection. Paul explains that in his letters – Romans 6, Galaitans 3:23-27; Colossians 2:10-13; 3:1-3; 1 Cor 10:1-4
    There is a beautiful picture of all this in Exodus 14. What happened for Israel is a picture of what happens for us through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize from all nations those who believed in Him – Jew and Gentile. That is good enough for me brother.

  17. HI Ian,
    I was baptized as a little baby with the sprinkling of water on my forehead. Must I be baptized again by immersion? By the way, in which church were you baptized by immersion?

    You are wrong, you know. Jesus did, in fact, baptize the thief on the cross, despite the fact that He was nailed to the cross. You yourself provided the proof.

  18. Dear Ian

    If a person is baptised in a Calvinist church does that make that person a Christian, after all they have followed Jesus’ command and obeyed Him to be baptised?

    I have a strong suspicion you are a Calvinist!

  19. Hi Ian

    You said “We also read in John 4 – “Then when the Lord knew that the Pharisees heard that Jesus made more disciples and baptized more than John (though truly Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), John 4:1-2.”

    Pray tell why did Jesus Christ Himself not baptise anyone any water and left it upto his 12 disciples to baptise thousands upon thousands of people? You would think if water baptism was a COMMAND by Jesus Christ Himself He would have done it, but He didn’t because genuine baptism is spiritual. No amount of immersion in water be it in the sea, a river, a dam, a bath or a teeny weeny stream is going to save you. That is why the THIEF on the cross was BAPTIZED (no physical water, but spiritual water) the moment he truly believed!

    You said “I forgot to tick the agree box and it came back with no comment; all the boxes were in red so I decided to rewrite”

    I think you are lying, you too said before in another comment that you were receiving a message from Sucuri which I checked up on. I emailed you telling you they said the message you got was because you were attempting a hack on DTW – and you never responded to my email.

    I am blocking you.

    You are so honest in following the commandment to be baptised yet you are DISHONEST when it comes to trying funny tricks with this website. If baptism causes you to be dishonest then I think you need to RETHINK your salvation and forget about the date your were dunked in water as clearly baptism for you is equated to the date you were supposedly saved.

    PS: Do I sound angry? Right you are. And every right I have to be upset, considering what you have been trying to do to this website through your little hacking attempts.

  20. mario says:

    Ian wrote:

    Tom
    When I was baptized in water I was fully immersed in the water in the Name of the Lord as per Matthew 28. I was a believer in Jesus Christ though quite young about ten years and I remember the place – I have the date somewhere written down. Believers are to be baptized according to the command of Jesus Christ.

    You ask – ” Why is water not mentioned in the baptism John the Baptist described Jesus would initiate?”
    John was right – he was prophesying concerniing our Lord Jesus Christ – who would baptize in the Holy Ghost anad with fire. But this was to take place after His ascension at which time He would send the promise of the Father – which Jesus spoke about during His life time on earth.
    But this does not negate anything.

    We also read in John 4 – “Then when the Lord knew that the Pharisees heard that Jesus made more disciples and baptized more than John (though truly Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), John 4:1-2.

    Here we have two facts.
    1. John bar Zebedee says that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John.
    2. John says that it was really the disciples that did the baptizing rather than Jesus.
    Is this a contradiction? No.
    It is recorded that Herod beheaded John the baptizer. Mark 6:16. Herod even says so himself. But in actual fact it was not Herod’s hands that beheaded John but a soldier. Is there a contradiction? No.
    Herod delegated the task to his subordinate. But Herod recognized that it was he who did it because he gave the command.
    God charges David with murder of Uriah. But it was not David’s hands that killed Uriah. But David had issued the order. It is all a matter of heart condition and delegation according to authority. The bucks stops with the one who gives the order. And this was the case with Jesus and those baptized by Him – that is His disciples. The disciples would not have baptized anybody if Jesus had not commanded them to do so – you would agree with that wouldn’t you?
    That being the case it is right to think that Jesus baptized people by virtue of the fact that He would have ordered His disciples to do so. He gets the honour for all things that we do according to His command.

    As I had said – Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize in water those they were to disciple in the word and way of the Lord.

    Paul did not disobey Jesus. Paul makes it plain in the opening remarks of hs first letter to Corinthian believers that he did baptize some people. That is a fact. But this was not an act of disobedience. Jesus did not say to him – “You shall not baptize anyone”. If He had – Paul would not have baptized one single person such was his love for his Lord.
    Paul chose not to baptize any more than he had because he did not want Christians to follow him in a cultish way….as some do today – look how many disciples WE (I) have got!! Even so, that was an issue he did address in his letter.

    When Paul says he was not sent to baptize – he is not talking about a command forbidding him to do so. He is speaking about his main focus – to preach. If Paul had have been commanded NOT to baptize anyone – he would not have baptized one single person. And he would not have been party to anyone with him baptizing anyone – not Silas to Timothy or Barnabas. Paul was the chief speaker – the leader if you like and there is no doubt in my mind that he delegated the task of baptizing, to others like Barnabas and Silas etc.

    Many use the argument that Jesus saved the repentant thief on the cross with no mention of baptism – as proof conclusive that baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
    This is an ignorant conclusion.
    The thief was under heavy Roman guard and even if it could possibly have happened it would never have happened under their watch – they would have lost their lives for dereliction of duty.
    The simple facts are:
    Jesus could not baptize – He wa nailed to the cross.
    The disciples could not, would not baptize because they had been all scattered as sheep; though John was there as a possible baptizer, the whole work of evangelizing had come to a stop because of the world shattering event taking place on Golgotha.
    What Jesus said to the thief who repented is an example for all those facing imminent death – it being fully imnpossible for them to submit to getting baptized. God is merciful and does not impose on those who are completely unable to be baptized such as the thief, to be baptized. God is not unreasonable or unjust.

    Baptizing people according to the command of Jesus Christ does not make the preaching of the gosple of christ of no effect. The whole matter of water baptism is wholly connected to Jesus death, His burial and His resurrection. Paul explains that in his letters – Romans 6, Galaitans 3:23-27; Colossians 2:10-13; 3:1-3; 1 Cor 10:1-4
    There is a beautiful picture of all this in Exodus 14. What happened for Israel is a picture of what happens for us through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize from all nations those who believed in Him – Jew and Gentile. That is good enough for me brot

  21. mario says:

    HI
    ONLY JEWS WERE CRUCIFIED NO GENTILES COULD BE CRUCIFIED ROMAN LAW
    SO THE TWO AT THE CROSS COULD HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED BEFORE THEY LANDED ON THE CROSS?

  22. mario.

    So, they were saved before they were crucified, that’s if it is true that you can only be baptized after you had been saved. So Jesus’ words to the criminal who had remorse for his sins on the cross and only got saved when Jesus said to him, “Today, you will be with me in Paradise” was null and void and meant nothing because he was already saved and baptized before he was crucified.

  23. Mario says:

    Hi
    If water baptism was repenting from their sibs what happened if they sinned after their water baptism

  24. Mario.

    You did a jolly good job to explain that the baptism Jesus’ disciples had been doing was actually Jesus Himself doing it, in the same way, Paul delegated the baptism of believers to some of the other disciples and, therefore, did not baptize himself, as you said. Where is the evidence of this in the Bible? Let’s assume the disciples were commanded to baptize newly born believers among the nations with water – in the very same way John the Baptist baptized the Jews. Wouldn’t that make John the Baptist a liar who said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Matthew 3:11-12).

    If your premise is true that Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize with water (Matthew 28:19-20), they would merely have been continuing the baptism of John which is unworthy of the baptism of Jesus. The very act of preaching the Gospel unto salvation to the nations and their response in faith to the Gospel is the very act of being baptized into his body. The moment sinners believe, they are baptized into Jesus. That’s why Paul said, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?” (Romans 6:3). Could the water baptism of John the Baptist baptize anyone into Jesus Christ’s death? If that were possible, we would never have needed Jesus Christ and his cross.

  25. Mario.

    I’m sorry, but I don’t understand your question. Would you mind elaborating a little more?

  26. Rebekah says:

    Hi, just wanted to say that this website led me astray one time – fooled me once shame on me – fooled me twice, shame on you – anyway, what I wanted to say is that in Acts 2:38 the word in NIV is forgiveness of sins but in KJV is the remission of sins – so both mean the same thing are are both biblical. Which shows the the author is perhaps not the most dedicated student of the word. I would definitely reconsider the article. No offense. But just so you know, both are right. Acts 2:38 being baptised in water for the remission of sins is translated the same as the forgiveness of sins so that point (the first point made against Torben Sondergards and TLR is already in error). Blessings xxo. Rebekah

  27. Where does Acts 2:38 say “baptized in water”? In both the KJV and NIV it says, “baptized in the Name of Jesus.” How dare you say that the author of the Bible (the Holy Spirit) is not a dedicated student?

  28. Dear Rebekah

    Wow… Let’s just fill in your own words in Acts 2:36 why don’t you. No wonder you get mislead so easily. You can’t read. :read:

  29. Paul B says:

    Peter, after seeing gentiles filled with Holy Ghost (Acts 10:44+) asks, (v47) “‭‭Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?‭”
    The Ethiopian eunuch asks Philip (Acts 8:36, “And as they went on ‭their‭ way, they came unto a certain water: and the ‭eunuch‭ said, See, ‭here is‭ water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?‭”
    These two examples of water baptism occurred after Jesus ascension. If water is not necessary then why these verses? Why would Jesus’ Apostles promote such unnecessary practices?
    Then explain how baptism in Romans says it’s symbolic of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection if it’s baptism in the Holy Ghost?
    It appears baptism was meant to be in water and the filling of the Holy Ghost accompanies it, just like Jesus’ baptism but unlike all the other baptisms performed by John.
    Comparing scriptures gives a complete picture.

  30. Hi Paul B

    Yep! As you said in your other comment, we should avoid and also expose ALL false teachers. Was Paul a false teacher who said Jesus did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel? You said in one of your posts,

    Then explain how baptism in Romans says it’s symbolic of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection if it’s baptism in the Holy Ghost?

    It appears baptism was meant to be in water and the filling of the Holy Ghost accompanies it, just like Jesus’ baptism but unlike all the other baptisms performed by John.

    Comparing scriptures gives a complete picture.

    Where in Romans does it say that water baptism is symbolic of Christ’s death burial and resurrection? It was John the Baptist who instituted water baptism unto repentance. “Unto repentance” means that the Jews (there were no gentiles among those whom he baptized) needed to change their minds about their Messiah, Jesus Christ, and his gospel. The word “metanoia” used for repentance means to change your mind for the better, the better being faith in Jesus Christ. If, as you say, water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Spirit go hand in hand, then those whom John baptized must also have been filled with the Holy Spirit. Moreover, if your claim that water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Spirit accompany one another, then Paul who was not sent to baptize, must have deprived people of the Holy Ghost.

    Yes, there were instances when Peter and Philippe baptized gentiles in water, but they were exceptions which I shall explain to you later when I have more time. By the way, did Ananias baptize Paul by immersion in water? Can you prove it to me from Scripture, seeing that you yourself said “Comparing scriptures gives a complete picture.” Is there any evidence in Scripture that the twelve apostles were baptized in water?

    Deborah replied:

    Acts 10:44-48 (KJV)
    44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    If we look at the all the above verses in its entirety it’s clear that Peter was travelling with Jews (those who were of the circumcision) who were against Gentiles being baptised. At the time of empowering believers with speaking in tongues etc, Peter tells the Jews, “who are we as Jews to deny Gentiles from being baptised to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost to speak in tongues and be a witness to all the nations?” Notice the word “water’ (v47) above does not denote actual water, it was a spiritual baptism of laying of on hands to receive the Holy Spirit. Until such time as the canon was complete, the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit to receive the gift of speaking in tongues, healing and prophecy would remain. After the Word of God was compete these gifts would cease.

  31. Bro. Nick says:

    I do thank you very much for this Biblically sound article of WARNING about the Danish “antichrist” evangelist Torben Sondergaard.
    – And it is my Biblical understanding that the Biblical Prophetic WARNING written in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 [AV] is very applicable to him – and about him and his ‘ministries’:
    For such are FALSE APOSTLES, DECEITFUL WORKERS,
    TRANSFORMING THEMSELVES INTO the apostles of Christ.
    And no marvel;
    FOR Satan HIMSELF IS TRANSFORMED INTO an angel of light.
    Therefore it is no great thing if HIS MINISTERS ALSO BE TRANSFORMED AS the ministers of righteousness;
    whose end shall be according to their works.
    .
    AND – “the Lord Jesus Christ” personally WARNED in Matthew 12:39 [AV] that: “An evil and adulterous generation SEEKETH AFTER A SIGN”
    .
    — The only point that I disagree with you is about ‘Water Baptism’
    .
    – 1) – ‘Water Baptism’ has NOTHING to do with – AND IS NOT necessary for ‘Biblical Salvation’
    – For that occurred WHEN I did that which is written in Romans 10:9-11 [AV]:
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
    and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
    thou shalt be saved.
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
    and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    .
    – For I had “received the Holy Ghost” when I was truly “saved”
    – As “it is written” in Ephesians 4:5-6 [AV]:
    One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    .
    So – ‘Water Baptism’ was ONLY my public acknowledgment that I am indeed – ONLY ‘By Grace Through Faith’ – a truly Biblically “saved” and “born again” “believeth” follower of “the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”
    – For “it is written” in Romans 1:16-17 [AV]:
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
    for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
    to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
    as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    .
    I would very much appreciate your comment(s) – for my ONLY desire is to Biblically correct – Acts 17:11 + 2 Timothy 2:15 + Philippians 2:12 [AV]
    .
    – NOTE CAPITALization of “the words of the Lord” are mine – for EMPHASIS – Bro. Nick

  32. Bro. Nick wrote:

    “So – ‘Water Baptism’ was ONLY my public acknowledgment that I am indeed – ONLY ‘By Grace Through Faith’ – a truly Biblically “saved” and “born again” “believeth” follower of “the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    If water baptism (John the Baptist’s baptism) has no value whatsoever in salvation, what benefit does it have? You, like so many others, say that it was your way of publically confessing your faith in Jesus? What about Bro. Paul who was baptized in Ananias’ house? He only had one person present at his baptism and no public audience to bear witness to his new-found faith in Jesus. What about the martyrs in the book of Revelation where it says, “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by their water baptism, and they loved not their lives unto the death.” (Revelation 12:11).

    Ironically you refer to Romans 1:16-17 (AV) to substantiate water baptism as a public means to bear witness to your salvation. And yet the word “baptism” is nowhere to be seen in that passage. How many unbelievers do you think, who witnessed your public acknowledgment of your faith through water baptism, may have thought, “Oh, I too am baptized and can relate to Nick’s experience of salvation, because I believe water baptism saves.” I’ve had many people say to me when I ask them how they were saved, “I am baptized.” “Oh!” I would say then, “in how much water.” The same old answer is, “I was fully immersed in water.”

    I know a woman who forced her husband to go to church with her and be baptized because she believes water baptism saves.

  33. Joy Gasser says:

    Good day, we came across your website and was at first very impressed but there are some very important things that we just cannot agree with. One of them is the importance of baptism (baptidzo – full immersion). We also do not agree with this article about Torben Sondergaard. We don’t think you are being fair at all, since you are not correct in what you say about what he believe. He does NOT say baptism saves you, but that you have to be born again and then you have to bury the old man in the water baptism. Paul spoke about the “water grave”. Jesus said in Joh.3 We have to be born from water and spirit. Any way not going to debate this with you. But if you really want to know what Torben stands for rather go and listen [REMOVED by DTW]. He does not agree at all with the Roman Catholic Church and he also warns against false holy spirit (kundalini etc.) [URL removed by DTW]

  34. Joy Gasser

    You said “Any way not going to debate this with you”

    That’s fine you are not willing to listen anyhow.

    You said “He does not agree at all with the Roman Catholic Church and he also warns against false holy spirit (kundalini etc.)”

    That’s interesting because he is a Lutheran (Roman Catholic) and everything he does is 100% Kundalini.

    I warned a couple of years ago that that false Christian church would come out speaking against the Kundalini spirit in order to try distance themselves from all the evil that was taking place within their circus tents (called ‘church’). The idea was to make people believe they are against it. And looks like you and man others have fallen for their lies. Andrew Strom was the first person to do this, a supposed ex-NAR who spoke out against Kundalini. But nothing has changed, it’s still the SAME filthy unholy spirit in operation trapping souls destined for hell.

  35. Bee says:

    I think that maybe before discerning the world, maybe it will be interesting to learn to discern what is inside you.
    I have seen a lot of anger, a lot of “I know better than you” which is pride, and if it is this the holy spirit, I don’t want it.
    You seem to know a lot of things about the scriptures and it is fine but if you don’t know how to let it goes into your heart, it has no value.
    I think that you should think twice before saying that others have kundaliny spirit because you don’t know how does God see you.
    Be careful before insulting others.

  36. Bee,

    Do you believe you are saved because you’d been completely immersed in lots of water?

  37. Anders H. Erichsen says:

    How do you ever connect that to the Hebrew root movement….

  38. Hi Anders,

    Here’s an eye-opener.

  39. Anders Erichsen says:

    But the HRM is just people going back to the Torah and the Festivals, the Sabbath and food laws and the rest reading and studying the Scriptures – so I don’t know how you connect it with anything of that sort.

    Rejecting the Pagan Traditions not found in the Bible turning to Biblical Feasts found in the Bible and the Sabbath and all the rest.

    So, to just put some video out…. When the movement itself is big, and people trying to learn and return to Scripture is just unfair and wrong. Jesus was a Jew, he kept the Torah and there is nothing wrong to try to keep, guard and protect what our Master himself did – as Disciples of our Master we should become more like him as time goes.

    So… I don’t get why you would attack a group that just try there best to become more like Jesus. If anything they are called Judaizers but as Jesus was a Jew and we his disciples I don’t see any issue with that – but I do see a problem people clinging to traditions and festivals of Rome.

    Brother
    Anders Erichsen

  40. Anders Erichsen says:

    And regards of this guy in the video – this would not be anyone I would listen to. We go by the Bible and that’s the main thing by many people in the HRM, to try to get back to it and learn from the Scriptures. Like New2Torah has some great stuff, and you eat the meat and spit out the bones like everything else out there.
    Like I don’t agree with man made traditions like Channakah or Purim – they are not found in the Torah so I don’t concern myself of learning them. But beside that – there is a ocean of information on the feasts found in the Torah, the festivals of Jehovah.
    Again, eat the meat and spit out the Bones.

    The same thing one would do with everything else, like the reformers, that had some good stuff but they also had things they got wrong. They where returning to scripture and had to begin relearning a lot of things and begin putting out the inherited leaven.

    Brother
    Anders Erichsen

  41. Anders Erichsen

    I suggest you stop chewing the meat and spitting out the bones and rather do what Jesus commanded you to do, that’s if you want to be like Him. He said through Paul: “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. (Gal 5:9)” You cannot remove the leaven that teaches water baptism saves lost sinners and still maintain the lump that allegedly remains untouched by the leaven. By the way, who decides what is the meat and what are the bones? If you believe that water baptism has salvific qualities then you are actually not eating meat and spitting out the bones; you are drinking the poison that oozes from the fangs of the snake, or is it DRAGON?

    We all get things wrong sometimes. However, whosoever gets the doctrine of redemption/regeneration/salvation wrong cannot claim to be saved. Jesus plus something else, like water baptism, speaking in tongues to allegedly receive the Spirit is another Jesus who cannot save.

  42. Anders Erichsen wrote:

    Jesus was a Jew, he kept the Torah and there is nothing wrong to try to keep, guard and protect what our Master himself did – as Disciples of our Master we should become more like him as time goes.

    No! that’s where you are wrong. Jesus did not keep the Law, guard it and try to protect it. He fulfilled it. (Matthew 5:17-20). Had He merely come to keep the Law, as you said, He would never have been able to save anyone. Now I can see why you are so confused.

    You wrote:

    So… I don’t get why you would attack a group that just try there best to become more like Jesus.

    Once again, you are wrong. Jesus did not fulfill the Law so that we may try (put in some effort) to be like Him in keeping the Law. That’s called WORKS of the flesh that have no benefit whatsoever. Paul of Tarsus diligently tried to be like his Lord but failed dismally again and again because he realized there was nothing good in his flesh.

  43. Anders Erichsen says:

    I have to disagree with a lot of what you say – so I’ll take my bed and walk, bye.

  44. Anders.

    Do you agree that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law?

  45. Dear Anders Erichsen

    You said “Again, eat the meat and spit out the Bones.”

    Looks like you are eating more bone and spitting out the meat.

  46. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Received an email:
    Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2019 13:37
    Subject: Re: Torben

    Hi Deborah

    I received this link from one of my friends and I was wondering if you’ve watched it and if so, your thoughts.

  47. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Hi there

    Alrighty then, this goes back to a discussion I had with Tom Lessing a few days about ‘Christian’ persecution around the world.

    First off I would like to say, what has happened to Torben in Denmark is shocking to say the least, but it is indeed a sign of the times.

    However, Torben is part of the Latter Rain movement hiding behind the Lutheran Church (which by the way never exited from the Roman Catholic – Luther tried very hard to separate, but he never did. This is why it was so easy for the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic church to merge again on Luther’s 500 year birthday recently.) There is a tremendous amount of persecution going on in the world, so called ‘Christian’ persecution. When you go and investigate these Christians that have been persecuted you will find out that 95% of the time if not more, they are Catholic.

    So what’s happening? Everyone of ‘faith’ has been lumped into the category of being a Christian, this includes ALL false doctrines. The end game is to push everyone to unite, join hands against ‘Christian’ persecution, and in doing so join hands with a One World Religion. For example when the Notre-Dame church burnt down in France, all Christians (Pentecostal and Catholic alike) the world over cried, “what a travesty, Christian churches are being attacked”. Not one person mentioned that the church of Notre-Dame was Catholic. Charisma Magazine had articles on the burning down of the church and spoke about the increase in persecution worldwide, but never once mentioned that it was Roman Catholic. People from the Elijah List started to prophecy that because the churches are burning in France, God was going to counteract by bringing down ‘fire’ from heaven over France and radically change the people to Christians.

    Satan is right now persecuting anyone who professed to believe in a ‘Jesus’ figure. Satan does not care who he destroys to further his end game. That is to unite all in a one world religion.

    Torben has been attacked by anti-Christian people who believe Torben to be a Christian. These people who attacked him are only doing Satan’s bidding.

    Torben speaks of miracles in the USA of a person giving them $50,000. A miracle indeed, but there is no proof that it was God that gave Torben that money. In order to keep a person entwined in false teaching Satan has to play games with you. He will persecute you and then help you out of persecution, and Torben remains in his false teaching as he believes God is helping him, when it’s not God at all.

    It is none other than false doctrine that leads to following ANOTHER Christ. It is this false Christ who is helping Torben during this traumatic time of his life. Torben is going to make a really big name for himself in the USA.

  48. To Deborah.

    What you have said and described here is the mirror image, if you will, of what happened centuries ago in the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine, who called himself Vicarius Christi (The Vicar of Christ – “Pope”, “Papa”). When the persecution-wearied church under Nero and his predecessors suffered some of the most excruciating tortures imaginable, she was “salvaged” from persecution and immediately introduced to ecumenism by Constantine. He supposedly became a Christian in 313 A.D which afforded him the deadliest weapon ever to be wielded against the church – ecumenism, unity, and oneness, even with pagan religions. Whilst he became the Head of the Christian Church, he remained the head of the pagan religions in Rome.

    Buddhism is deemed to be the most compassionate, peace-loving and helpful religion in the world. Not any more. That has changed. During Pope Francis’ August 27 2017 address in St. Peter’s Square, he condemned attacks against Myanmar’s largely Muslim Rohingya community.

    “Sad news has come about the persecution of a religious minority, our Rohingya brothers,” said Francis. “I would like to express all my nearness to them. And let us all ask the Lord to save them and to raise up men and women of goodwill in their aid, who will give them their full rights.”

    Note carefully, he called the Muslims his brothers. Like Constantine of old, he too resides over pagan religions as their great Saviour whilst he sits on the Vatican seat in Rome as the Vicar of Christ, and at the same time as the Great Saviour of Christendom. Of course, there is a great deal of persecution among true Christians but you hardly ever hear of it in the mainstream media. Whenever it does report, it is always persecution against Roman Catholics.

    Torben, one can see in the video, is really heartbroken and sincere about the persecution he suffered in Denmark. However, one can be sincere and yet sincerely wrong, as seen from his NAR meetings. Indeed, he is devastated by his experience but shouldn’t he be more concerned about his own “persecution” (deception) of children and grownups with his NAR false teachings? Jesus said, “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.” {(Matthew 12:39). The New Reformation NAR movement with its so-called signs and wonders is evil, Jesus Himself said. Who knows, perhaps Jesus Christ is the one who is allowing Torben’s ministry to be destroyed so that he may find the truth and start to preach the unadulterated Word of God instead of a lot of NAR lies that are misleading people all over the world.

    What is more dangerous – to be persecuted or to mislead and deceive millions of people through the NAR deception and lead them to a Christless eternity in hell?

  49. Hi Tom

    Thanks for the reply.

    You said “Who knows, perhaps Jesus Christ is the one who is allowing Torben’s ministry to be destroyed so that he may find the truth and start to preach the unadulterated Word of God instead of a lot of NAR lies that are misleading people all over the world.”

    One can only pray.

    You said “What is more dangerous – to be persecuted or to mislead and deceive millions of people through the NAR deception and lead them to a Christless eternity in hell?”

    One is a persecution that is visible, that can be reported on by the news. The other is invisible persecution by Satan on the church through doctrines of demons. Once a person dies, no one know how the false doctrine infiltrated their beliefs that in the end lead them straight to hell – no news can report on the untold numbers of people who have lost their souls to Satan.

  50. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    A very important point to make regarding Water Baptism: Water Baptism is being used as an initiation into a church and their doctrine. Hands are laid on a person as they are immersed under water. We all know what happens when hand are laid on someone don’t we? Yip, we become a partaker of their sins. In other words, a transference of demonic spirits can take place.

    1 Timothy 5:22 “Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.”

    All people joining the Seventh Day Adventist church are expected to be baptised in water. Are they now truly saved as they symbolically went through the actions representing Christ’s death burial and resurrection? Mormons need to be baptised in water as well when they join the church, are they too now saved because they obeyed the gospel to be immersed in water?

    Much of the Latter Day Saint theology of baptism was established during the early Latter Day Saint movement founded by Joseph Smith. Baptism must be by immersion and is for the remission of sins (meaning that through baptism, past sins are forgiven), and occurs after one has shown faith and repentance. Latter Day Saint baptism does not purport to remit any sins other than personal ones, as adherents do not believe in original sin. Baptisms also occur only after an “age of accountability” which is defined as the age of eight years.[2] The theology thus rejects infant baptism.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_in_Mormonism

    Let’s take it one step further, are all people who get baptised in water in a Calvinist church now truly saved because they were immersed in water?

    In Reformed theology, baptism is the sacrament of initiation into the visible church, or body of people who publicly claim faith in Christ. Baptism also signifies regeneration and remission of sin. Reformed Christians believe that the children of those who express faith in Christ should be baptized. Because baptism is believed to be beneficial only to those who have faith in Christ, infants are baptized on the basis of the promise of faith which will come to fruition later in life. [Emphasis added]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_baptismal_theology

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