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Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased?

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased?

FalseProphets Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased?No, there are no prophets today because genuine Prophets are mentioned in the Bible – they were the foundations of the church and secondly the gift of prophecy has ceased.

The office of Prophet and Apostle was temporary…

and only necessary for the church before the completion of the Bible.  The actual foundation of the church was built UPON the Prophets and Apostles (with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone).

Ephesians 2:19-22

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,20 having been built ON THE FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

The role of the prophet in the Old Testament was to foretell the future and truths about God and the coming of His Son Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was the LAST and GREATEST Prophet

Hebrews 1:1-2

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

The gift of prophecy has ceased.

1 Corinthians 13 (Amp)

8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).

10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded)

The ‘perfect’ spoken about in verse 10 above is the Bible itself.  Here we are told that when the Bible would be written and complete, prophecy would no longer be needed, neither would tongues for that matter as the Bible is Perfect in every way and the church will use the Bible instead because it contains all the prophecy you need.

But someone might say,” but what about 1 Corinthians 14:3 where it speaks about prophesying.

Well let me explain.

1 Corinthians 14:3 (AMP)

3 But [on the other hand], the one who prophesies [who interprets the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching] speaks to men for their upbuilding and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation.

This is not prophecy spoken by a Prophet my dear readers, this is the gift of inspired preaching and teaching that results in edification, exhortation, and encouragement.  This is FORTH TELLING of the truth of the Word of God, not FORETELLING the future.

Once again do you see how just the smallest twisting of scripture can create an entire false religion and lead millions upon millions of people astray.

Today we have millions of false prophets running around telling churches that they have ‘heard from the Lord, this’, or ‘God has told them, that” but they speak from their own imaginations.

Jeremiah 23:16

16 Thus says the LORD of hosts:   “ Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you.   They make you worthless;   They speak a vision of their own heart,  Not from the mouth of the LORD.

Jeremiah 14:14

14 And the LORD said to me, “The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart.

Sometimes some of these false prophets prophecies come true, but it’s not due to the fact that they are Godly men or woman, oh no!  Many of these prophets dabble in occultism and Satan can make things go his way that they correspond with the said prophecy. In fact you find prophets in all religions.  Satan is also not stupid, his intelligence far exceeds mans and he knows how to play mankind and get them right where he wants them.   A so called prophet within todays ‘Christian’ circles is non other than a soothsayer and they are an abomination unto the Lord.

Deuteronomy 18:9-13

9 “When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations.10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fireor one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.

pixel Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased?

81 comments to Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased?

  • Donna

    Deb,

    [EDITED by DTW: Removed text not applicable to this topic]

    Please read the following information re the GREEK in 1 Cor. 13:8. If you are really looking for truth, then I don’t see how you can deny this important & necessary presentation re the tenses in the GREEK translations.

    Here are the definitions of the words in 1 Cor.13:8 for you & your readers in their proper GREEK tenses.

    IF THERE ARE TONGUES, THEY WILL CEASE: eite glossai, pausontai; (3PFMI): (1Cor 13:1; 12:10,28, 29, 30; 14:39; Acts 2:4; 19:6 )

    Tongues (1100) (glossa) in the NT is used literally to refer to the tongue as a part of the body, and figuratively to refer to speech (1Jn 3:18, in Lxx of Pr 25:25, Pr 31:26) particular languages or dialect as spoken by people group (Acts 2:11 referring to the language of Cretans and Arabs, in Lxx of Ge 11:7 where God confused man’s language at Babel because they had the same language Ge 11:6 and self-centered motives Ge 11:4).

    Glossa – 50x in 47v in the NAS – Mk. 7:33, 35; 16:17; Lk. 1:64; 16:24; Acts 2:3f, 11, 26; 10:46; 19:6; Rom. 3:13; 14:11; 1 Co. 12:10, 28, 30; 13:1, 8; 14:2, 4, 5, 6, 9, 13, 14, 18, 19, 22, 23, 26, 27, 39; Phil. 2:11; Jas. 1:26; 3:5f, 8; 1 Pet. 3:10; 1 Jn. 3:18; Rev. 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 16:10; 17:15. NAS = tongue(25), tongues(25).

    Cease (3973) (pauo [word study] from which we get English “pause”) means to cause something or someone to cease from some activity or state and so to come to an end. Paul’s point is that all three of these supernatural gifts (and perhaps other supernatural gifts as well) will eventually become unnecessary, the timing of this cessation being one which is quite controversial (See notes below by David Guzik and the link to John MacArthur which seem to be at opposite ends of the interpretative spectrum regarding cessation of tongues).

    Tongues (with the same figurative meaning) are mentioned again in the next chapter 15x in 14verses (1 Cor 14:2, 4, 5, 6, 9, 13, 14, 18, 19, 22, 23, 26, 27, 39)

    David Guzik comments on this somewhat controversial section discussing first that…

    That which is perfect (in 1Co 13:10) – Paul says when that which is perfect has come, then the gifts will be “discontinued.” But what is that which is perfect? Though some who believe the miraculous gifts ceased with the apostles say it refers to the completion of the New Testament, they are wrong. Virtually all commentators are agreed that which is perfect is when we are in the eternal presence of the Perfect One, when we are with the Lord forever either through the return of Christ or graduation to the eternal. The Greek word for perfect is telos. Considering the way the New Testament uses telos in other passages, it certainly seems to be speaking about the coming of Jesus (1Co 1:8; 15:24; James 5:11; Rev 20:5, 7; 21:6; 22:13).

    Many who believe the miraculous gifts ended with the apostles (such as John MacArthur – For Dr MacArthur’s view see his series of sermons on the miraculous gifts) claim since the verb will cease is not in the passive, but in the middle voice, it could be translated, tongues will stop by themselves. Their analysis sounds scholarly, but is disregarded by virtually all Greek scholars.

    Even if this translation is correct, it does nothing to suggest when tongues will cease. John MacArthur claims, “tongues ceased in the apostolic age and that when they stopped, they stopped for good.” But this passage doesn’t tell us “tongues will stop by themselves,” and it tells us tongues will cease only when that which is perfect has come.

    John Calvin was one who thought the will cease spoke of the eternal state. “But when will that perfection come? It begins, indeed, at death, because then we put off many weaknesses along with the body.” (Calvin)

    In his use of will fail and will cease and will vanish away, Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is not trying to say that prophecies, tongues, and knowledge have different fates. He is simply writing well, saying the same thing in three different ways. They will end, but love never fails.

    “There is virtually no distinction between the two Greek verbs that describe the termination of both prophecies and tongues. True, the verb with prophecies is in the passive voice (believers are the implied agents), while the verb with tongues is interpreted as the active voice. The difference is only a stylistic change and nothing more.” (Kistemaker) (David Guzik. The Enduring Word Commentary on 1Corinthians 13)

    IF THERE IS KNOWLEDGE, IT WILL BE DONE AWAY: eite gnosis, katargethesetai. (3SFPI): (Jeremiah 49:7; Hebrews 8:13)

    Knowledge (1108) (gnosis, root word gnos – see below) in simple terms is the possession of information of what is known. Gnosis describes the comprehension or intellectual grasp of something. Gnosis refers to knowledge gained by experience in contrast to intuitive knowledge. Gnosis is an “experiential knowledge,” and not a mere passing acquaintance.

    The English dictionary definition states that knowledge is the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association. It describes an acquaintance with or understanding of something (the NT uses of gnosis most often referring to spiritual/divine knowledge). Knowledge is the clear and certain perception of that which exists. Knowledge describes information and/or skills acquired through experience. Knowledge is that which is or can be known and applies to facts or ideas acquired by study, investigation, observation, or experience.

    Gnosis can also stand for the content of what is known or what one knows (as in Ro 2:20, Ro 15:14, 1Co 1:5, 8:1, 7, 10, 11, 2Co 11:6). Some say that gnosis is “fragmentary knowledge” as contrasted with epignosis [word study] (which reflects a fuller participation of the learner in acquiring and “experiencing” the knowledge or gnosis).

    The Greek root word is reflected in the basic English word “know” (which is an English form of the root word, gnos). More clearly this root gnos is seen in such words as “ignorance” (of knowing), “agnostic” (one who claims that God is unknowable), and the word Gnosticism which Webster defines as “the the thought and practice especially of various cults of late pre-Christian and early Christian centuries distinguished by the conviction that matter is evil and that emancipation comes through gnosis.” The current “New Age Movement” manifests many of the characteristics of ancient Gnosticism.

    The difference between knowledge and wisdom is said to be that knowledge is the understanding of truth, whereas wisdom is the ability to apply what truth has been learned.

    The Homan Treasury of Key Bible Words has an insightful comment on the difference between oida (eido) knowledge and gnosis (and the corresponding verb ginosko) knowledge noting that…

    The Greeks had two words for knowing, oida and ginosko (the noun form of which is gnosis). Oida, related to the Greek word for “seeing,” denotes “perception” and “absolute knowledge.” Once something is known, it is known for good—nothing can be added to it. ginosko (gnosis) denotes “inceptive and ongoing knowledge.” It designates ongoing, personal knowledge, which implies a relationship between the person who knows and the person who is known (Ed: Which is why many definitions of gnosis refer to it as “experiential” knowledge). (Gnosis) knowledge can grow and mature. By way of illustration, we can “know” (oida) someone’s name immediately, but it will take a lifetime to really “know” (ginosko/gnosis) that person. (Holman Treasury of Key Bible Words: 200 Greek and 200 Hebrew Words Defined and Explained)

    Hiebert in his comments on 2Peter says that gnosis

    speaks of a practical knowledge that admits of expansion and enables its possessor to discern between right and wrong in facing the duties of life. In order to maintain a balance, practical intelligence and moral insight must govern a resolute and aggressive faith. This knowledge stands over against the spurious “knowledge” of the false teachers (described in 2Peter). The cure for false knowledge is not less knowledge but a knowledge characterized by moral insight. The operation of such knowledge distinguishes the believer’s conduct from his former life in spiritual ignorance (1Pe 1:14-note).

    Some scholars state that gnosis is a knowledge which may be concerned with the intellect without affecting the character. Wayne Barber offers a parallel thought in his discussion of the two varieties of gnosis in Scripture, human and spiritual gnosis.

    (1) HUMAN GNOSIS (cp GNOSTICISM) = These men were in the church but as 1Jn 2:19 teaches “They went out from us, but they were not really of us”. The Gnostics claimed one could find knowledge apart from God. (and they were right…just check out any encyclopedia.) But the gnosis that directs a believer’s life is found only in God’s Word. This is not to say that we don’t need human gnosis (e.g., instruction on how to drive a car or program your VCR!) but the believer puts a priority on the Biblical variety of knowledge in order to live that they might be equipped to live the Christian life. We need Spiritual Gnosis and/or spiritual revelation from God in order to live this supernatural “Christ” life (Shift the letters in Christian and you have “A” ” “Christ” “In”!). Human gnosis allowed the people to go to church, to not feel bad about sin, not to even have to obey and yet to still be called “religious”! We see this “human gnosis” in many churches today. Another synonym for gnosis is humanism, an ancient “-ism” that has not changed much since the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. Remember that whatever gnosis you are inputting into your mind, will determine the quality of your behavior and conduct. What you believe will show itself in how you behave.

    (2) SPIRITUAL GNOSIS = that which comes from knowing and experiencing Christ through obedience to His Word. Remember that the only way you will receive this spiritual gnosis is by being sold out to Him. In John 7:17 Jesus declared that…

    If any man is willing (thelema [word study]) to do His will, he shall know (ginosko – know by experience) of the teaching (doctrine = didache [word study]), whether it is of God, or whether I speak from Myself.

    This verse teaches a powerful principle: if you ”do” (obey) the teaching, then (and only then) will you really “know” the teaching! How many people do you know that really have spiritual “gnosis”? Be careful! Don’t look at how much a person knows about the Bible. Look at their walk and it won’t take you thirty seconds to determine whether or not they have true spiritual knowledge or whether they are walking in human wisdom.

    Here is a Scriptural Example that helps us understand the difference between human and spiritual gnosis. In Philippians 3 Paul had just given his ”pedigree” and warned the Philippians to beware of the dogs, etc and that he put no confidence in the flesh (), although Paul had a right to ”brag” humanly speaking in his fleshly achievements.

    Phil 3:8 “More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing (KJV = of the knowledge or gnosis) [Paul is not talking about knowing Him in the sense of experience. He's talking about the "finished product" of the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. And Paul was no slouch but he was still willing to discount it all for this great value!] Christ Jesus my Lord for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ…”

    What is the principle? Paul counted them lost before he lost them. This is part of the call to be a disciple…they were willing to leave everything to follow Jesus (see Mt 4:20,22, 10:37, Lk 14:27, 14:33) Paul put aside everything in his life for the gnosis or knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. How was he going to get it? By counting everything as loss, by losing it. Then selling out totally to this knowledge, he experienced it as he walked in absolute obedience to Christ. This is a beautiful picture of how you get gnosis….this is something that only comes when you’re walking in the light (the “FM frequency” of Christianity). How many people do you know who are living on the “AM Band”?(Adapted from notes from a lecture by Dr Wayne Barber)

    Renn summarizes gnosis as a word that is…

    concerned primarily with human knowledge. Lk 1:77; 11:52; Ro 15:14; 1Co 8:7; 12:8 express the knowledge of salvation. Ro 2:20 refers to knowledge gained from the law. Ro 11:33; 2Co 4:6; 10:5 mention human knowledge of God; and 2Co 2:14; Php 3:8; 2Pe 3:18 speak of the knowledge of Christ. A number of references point to knowledge in an unspecified way (e.g., Ro 15:14; 1Cor. 13:2, 8; 2Co 6:6; 8:7; Ep 3:19; 2Pe 1:5, 6). 1Co 14:6 speaks of spiritual truth, and Col 2:3 cites knowledge that is derived from Christ. (Expository Dictionary of Bible Words: Word Studies for Key English Bible Words Based on the Hebrew and Greek Texts)

    Vincent (commenting on 1Ti 6:20) states that

    Gnosis (knowledge) was the characteristic word of the Gnostic school, the most formidable enemy of the Church of the second century. The Gnostics claimed a superior knowledge peculiar to an intellectual caste. According to them, it was by this philosophic insight, as opposed to faith, that humanity was to be regenerated. Faith was suited only to the rude masses, the animal-men. The intellectual questions which occupied these teachers were two; to explain the work of creation, and to account for the existence of evil. Their ethical problem was how to develop the higher nature in the environment of matter which was essentially evil. In morals they ran to two opposite extremes—asceticism and licentiousness. The principal representatives of the school were Basilides, Valentinus, and Marcion. Although Gnosticism as a distinct system did not reach its full development until about the middle of the second century, foreshadowings of it appear in the heresy at which Paul’s Colossian letter was aimed. It is not strange if we find in the Pastoral Epistles, allusions pointing to Gnostic errors; but, as already remarked, it is impossible to refer these allusions to any one definite system of error” (Word Studies)

    Gnosis – 29x in 28v in the NAS (Notice where the majority of uses of gnosis are found! 16x in letters to one church!) – Lk. 1:77; 11:52; Ro 2:20; 11:33; 15:14; 1Co 1:5; 8:1, 7, 10, 11; 12:8; 13:2, 8; 14:6; 2Co 2:14; 4:6; 6:6; 8:7; 10:5; 11:6; Ep 3:19; Php 3:8; Col 2:3; 1Ti 6:20; 1Pe 3:7; 2Pe 1:5, 6; 3:18 and is rendered in the NAS as knowing(1), knowledge(27), understanding way(1).

    Luke 1:77 To give to His people the knowledge of salvation by the forgiveness (aphesis) of their sins,

    Comment: This context refers to spiritual gnosis regarding salvation, specifically revealing that forgiveness of sins is the heart of salvation. God saves sinner from separation from Him and from eternal hell only by atoning for and forgiving their sins. {For more on forgiveness see studies of the main words – Forgive (grant, freely give, bestow) (5483) charizomai ; Forgive (863) aphiemi; Forgiveness (859) aphesis}

    Luke 11:52 “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key (the correct interpretation of God’s word) of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered (koluo [word study] = cut off, restrained, prevented) those who were entering.”

    Comment: This context also refers to spiritual gnosis regarding salvation. Legalistic teaching always takes away the key to this vital gnosis. Not only does legalism keep one from (to extend the metaphor of a “key”) opening the door of salvation initially (Jn 10:9) but also hinders the proper use of the gnosis which is vital to daily living of the supernatural in Christ (2Co 5:7, Gal 5:7, 3:1, 2, 3)

    Leon Morris adds that “Instead of opening up the treasures of knowledge, the lawyers closed them fast. They turned the Bible into a book of obscurities, a bundle of riddles which only the experts could understand. And the experts were so pleased and preoccupied with the mysteries they had manufactured that they missed the wonderful thing that God was saying. They neither entered themselves nor allowed others to enter. There were ordinary people on their way to the knowledge of God until these teachers turned them away.” (Tyndale New Testament Commentaries)

    Romans 2:20-note a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment (morphosis [word study] = an outline or sketch) of knowledge and of the truth

    Comment: Here gnosis refers to “divine” (spiritual) gnosis, knowledge of God’s desire for man as laid out in His law which is “holy and righteous and good.” (Ro 7:12-note)

    Romans 11:33-note Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

    Romans 15:14-note And concerning you, my brethren, I myself also am convinced that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able also to admonish one another.

    MacArthur comments: He is not, of course, speaking of broad human knowledge but of the deep knowledge of God’s truth in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Believers in this church were doctrinally sound. They were well on their way to “attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Col. 2:2, 3). Virtue and truth, here referred to as goodness and knowledge, are inseparable. (MacArthur, J: Romans 9-16. Chicago: Moody Press or Logos or Wordsearch)

    1 Corinthians 1:5 that in everything you were enriched (ploutos = wealth, richness, possessions and gives us our English plutocrat, “a very wealthy person”!) in Him (in Christ), in all speech and all (all that was necessary to live this Christian life = nothing lacking) knowledge,

    Comment: Speech refers to outward expression and gnosis refers to inward comprehension. As Albert Barnes says this gnosis refers to “the knowledge of Divine truth. They had understood the doctrines which they had heard, and had intelligently embraced them.” In short, they had apprehended the gnosis which related to “the great and deep things of God”. And since they had “all speech”, they had the . ability which God had given them to communicate this spiritual gnosis to others. This reference to speech and knowledge also alludes to the spiritual gifts with which the Corinthians were so richly endowed (cp 1Co 1:7, 2Co 8:7).

    1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge (in context this spiritual gnosis refers to an understanding of the true nature of idol worship) makes arrogant (literally “blows up” or puffs up, inflates obviously speaking of one’s pride! The corresponding noun refers to a pair of bellows!), but love edifies…7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled….10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.

    Comment: We often hear the aphorism “A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.” True but here Paul says that an abundance of “spiritual gnosis” can also be a dangerous thing, for it creates in the “gnosis bearer” a sense of superiority in spiritual matters. To have love without knowledge is not good, but spiritual gnosis without love is equally tragic for it makes one proud and self-satisfied.

    John MacArthur has a helpful, pithy comment on the self “inflating” effect of gnosis – The truly well–rounded Christian thinks and acts in two ways: conceptually and relationally. He has the ability to understand biblical truths (Ed: “spiritual gnosis”) and the ability to relate them to people, to himself, and to others. He has knowledge plus love, because love is the medium through which truth is to be communicated. “Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ” (Ep 4:15-note). Knowledge by itself brings arrogance, not maturity. Division in the church may be caused by problems of behavior as well as problems of doctrine. When some believers insist on exercising their liberty without regard for the feelings and standards of fellow believers, the church is weakened and frequently divided.

    1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

    1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing….8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

    1 Corinthians 14:6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

    2 Corinthians 2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge (spiritual gnosis, gnosis of the gospel, the way of salvation) of Him in every place.

    2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge (spiritual gnosis brings supernatural light into a lost person’s soul so that in this context the gnosis alludes to the Good News of Christ, the light of the world Jn 8:12, cp Paul’s experience Acts 8:3, 4, 5, 6) of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 6:6 in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love,

    2 Corinthians 8:7 But just as you abound in everything, in faith and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also.

    2 Corinthians 10:5-note We are destroying (kathaireo [word study]) speculations (logismos [word study]) and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

    Comment: This is a key verse with which all believers should be fully conversant. The key aspect of this passage is found in the phrase “against the knowledge of God”. Spiritual warfare is not an ethereal battle with unseen demons per se (i.e., not a power struggle), but instead is a truth struggle, a battle over gnosis, the spiritual gnosis of God (as found in the Scriptures) versus the false, lying gnosis (including human gnosis as described above) of the evil one (cp Jn 8:44). Logically, it follows that the “battlefield” for this spiritual warfare is our mind! MacArthur given an added description of specious gnosis noting that “In 1Cor 3:20, he (Paul) called them the useless reasonings of the worldly wise —all the anti-biblical ideologies, false religions, and pseudo gospels spawned by Satan. Paul knew those fortresses well, having lived his entire life before his conversion in one of them. He was a zealous follower of the Judaism of his day, which had turned from its Old Testament roots and become a ritualistic system of works-righteousness.” (2Corinthians Commentary)

    2 Corinthians 11:6 But even if I am unskilled in speech, yet I am not so in knowledge; in fact, in every way we have made this evident to you in all things.

    Ephesians 3:19-note and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

    Wuest comments on the “experiential” aspect of gnosis in the context of this verse writing that…”This love surpasses knowledge, gnosis, “experiential knowledge.”

    That is, no matter how much the saint experiences of the love of Christ, yet there are oceans of love in the great heart of God that have not been touched by his experience.

    One is reminded of the words of that saint of old who penned the following lines on the walls of his cell regarding the love of God;

    Could we with ink the ocean fill,
    And were the skies of parchment made,
    Were every stalk on earth a quill,
    And every man a scribe by trade,
    To write the love of God above,
    Would drain the ocean dry.
    Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
    Though stretched from sky to sky. (AMEN!)
    (Revel in the words of this great hymn = The Love of God by Frederick Lehman)

    The saints are to have an experiential knowledge (gnosis) of the love of God “in order that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.” (Wuest, K. S. Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Eerdmans or Logos or Wordsearch)

    Philippians 3:8-note More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

    Colossians 2:3-note in whom are hidden (Apokruphos means hidden from the common gaze, and therefore secret.) all (no exceptions!) the treasures of wisdom (sophia [word study]) and knowledge.

    Comment: The word hidden is apokruphos which means hidden from the common gaze, and therefore secret. The Gnostics (or similar false teachers) in Colossae believed that a great mass of elaborate knowledge was necessary for salvation. That knowledge they set down in their books which they called apokruphos (our English apocrypha) because this gnosis was barred from “ordinary” men. Paul is saying,

    “You Gnostics have your gnosis hidden from ordinary people, but Christians also have our gnosis, the difference being that our gnosis is not hidden in unintelligible books but is hidden in Christ and therefore open to all men by grace through faith.”

    The truth of Christianity is not a secret gnosis which is hidden but, praise the Lord, a “secret gnosis” which is revealed.

    1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge ” (false or “anti-God” gnosis)–

    1 Peter 3:7-note You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way (According to gnosis = With an intelligent recognition of the nature of the marriage relation), as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

    2 Peter 1:5-note Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,

    2 Peter 3:18-note but grow (present imperative = make it the habitual practice of your life to keep on growing) in the grace and knowledge (gnosis) of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (cp Col 2:3). To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

    Gnosis – 42x in the non-apocryphal Septuagint – 1Sa 2:3; 1 hr 4:10; Esth 4:17; Ps 19:2; 73:11; 94:10; 119:66; 139:6; Prov 2:6; 8:9f, 12; 9:6; 13:16, 19; 16:7; 19:23; 21:11; 22:20f; 27:21; 29:7; 30:3; Eccl 1:16, 17, 18; 2:21, 26; 7:12; 8:6; 9:10; 12:9; Isa 11:2; Jer 10:14; 40:14; 51:17; Dan 2:30; Hos 4:6; 10:12; Mal 2:7

    The use of gnosis in Hosea presents an immutable principle highlighting the importance of genuine, Biblical spiritual gnosis…

    Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Lxx = gnosis). Because you have rejected knowledge (Lxx = epignosis), I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

    Here is another Lxx use of gnosis which presents an immutable, vitally important principle (one that all pastors would do well to carefully heed)…

    Malachi 2:7 “For the lips of a priest should preserve (Lxx = phulasso [word study] = to guard as does a military sentry!) knowledge (Lxx = gnosis), and men should seek instruction from his mouth; for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

    Compare – Ecclesiastes 12:9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge (Lxx = gnosis); and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.

    Here are some other uses of gnosis in the Lxx…

    1Sa 2:3 “Boast no more so very proudly, Do not let arrogance come out of your mouth; For the LORD is a God of knowledge (Lxx = gnosis), And with Him actions are weighed.

    Psalm 119:66 Teach me good discernment and knowledge (Lxx = gnosis), For I believe in Your commandments.

    Spurgeon: Teach me good judgment and knowledge. Again he begs for teaching, as in verse 64, and again he uses God’s mercy as an argument. Since God had dealt well with him, he is encouraged to pray for judgment to appreciate the Lord’s goodness. Good judgment is the form of goodness which the godly man most needs and most desires, and it is one which the Lord is most ready to bestow. David felt that he had frequently failed in judgment in the matter of the Lord’s dealings with him: from want of knowledge he had misjudged the chastening hand of the heavenly Father, and therefore he now asks to be better instructed, since he perceives the injustice which he had done to the Lord by his hasty conclusions. He means to say — Lord, thou didst deal well with me when I thought thee hard and stern, be pleased to give me more wit, that I may not a second time think so ill of my Lord.

    A sight of our errors and a sense of our ignorance should make us teachable. We are not able to judge, for our knowledge is so sadly inaccurate and imperfect; if the Lord teaches us knowledge we shall attain to good judgment, but not otherwise. The Holy Ghost alone can fill us with light, and set the understanding upon a proper balance: let us ardently long for His teachings, since it is most desirable that we should be no longer mere children in knowledge and understanding.

    For I have believed thy commandments. His heart was right, and therefore he hoped his head would be made right. He had faith, and therefore he hoped to receive wisdom. His mind had been settled in the conviction that the precepts of the word were from the Lord, and were therefore just, wise, kind, and profitable; he believed in holiness, and as that belief is no mean work of grace upon the soul, he looked for yet further operations of divine grace. He who believes the commands is the man to know and understand the doctrines and the promises. If in looking back upon our mistakes and ignorance we can yet see that we heartily loved the precepts of the divine will, we have good reason to hope that we are Christ’s disciples, and that he will teach us and make us men of good judgment and sound knowledge. A man who has learned discernment by experience, and has thus become a man of sound judgment, is a valuable member of a church, and the means of much edification to others. Let all who would be greatly useful offer the prayer of this verse:

    “Teach me good judgment
    and knowledge.”

    Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge (Lxx = gnosis) and understanding.

    Proverbs 8:10 “Take my instruction and not silver, and knowledge (Lxx = gnosis) rather than choicest gold.

    Proverbs 21:11 When the scoffer is punished, the naive becomes wise; But when the wise is instructed, he receives knowledge (Lxx = gnosis).

    Charles Bridges comments: The wise, though already taught of God; through his daily teaching thankfully receives increasing knowledge (gnosis). (Pr 1:5.) Among his most fruitful lessons are the instructions of the rod–instructions (mark the difference of the term)–not punishment. Often does the teaching rod seal the teaching law (Ed: the spiritual gnosis). (Bridges, C. Commentary on Proverbs)

    Ecclesiastes 2:26 For to a person who is good in His sight He has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, while to the sinner He has given the task of gathering and collecting so that he may give to one who is good in God’s sight. This too is vanity and striving after wind.

    Comment: Divine gnosis is a gift of God, bestowed on those who are good, not because they merit it but because God is gracious to give good gifts to His children. The unrighteous “worldly wise” person is devoid of divine spiritual gnosis.

    Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

    Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

    Jeremiah 10:14 Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge (Lxx = gnosis); Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; For his molten images are deceitful, And there is no breath in them.

    Jeremiah 51:17 All mankind is stupid, devoid of knowledge (Lxx = gnosis); Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, For his molten images are deceitful, And there is no breath in them.

    Pulpit Commentary notes that this knowledge…

    shall be only annulled in the sense of earthly knowledge, which shall be a star disappearing in the light of that heavenly knowledge which shall gradually broaden into the perfect day. (The Pulpit Commentary: New Testament; Old Testament; Ages Software or Logos)

    Done away (2673) (katargeo – see above) means that it will be abolished. This however is not knowledge in general (which will become perfect) but the gift of knowledge.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Donna

    I know all this stuff. I’ve read and studied all angles believe me. Now if you believe this to be true that there are genuine prophets around. Would you mind letting me know of one?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Donna

    I have studied this avenue believe me. I study all angles before I post an article. Just because John MacArthur’s name is mentioned in this document is not gonna make me look twice at what I have written.

    >> That which is perfect (in 1Co 13:10) – Paul says when that which is perfect has come, then the gifts will be “discontinued.” But what is that which is perfect? Though some who believe the miraculous gifts ceased with the apostles say it refers to the completion of the New Testament, they are wrong. Virtually all commentators are agreed that which is perfect is when we are in the eternal presence of the Perfect One, when we are with the Lord forever either through the return of Christ or graduation to the eternal. The Greek word for perfect is telos. Considering the way the New Testament uses telos in other passages, it certainly seems to be speaking about the coming of Jesus (1Co 1:8; 15:24; James 5:11; Rev 20:5, 7; 21:6; 22:13).

    Wrong. “Perfect” is translated from the Greek [teleion], meaning, according to Thayer’s LEXICON, “brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness.” In the Arndt-Gingrich LEXICON the word is described as, “having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect.” It is important to note that this word is an ADJECTIVE and not a NOUN. Some have taught, in error, that “that which is perfect” refers to Jesus. But even in our English language we never refer to a person as a ”that.” In Greek or English “that” is neuter gender. Christ is not referred to as “that” but as “who.”

    Now let’s look at “that which is perfect” in its context: 1 Cor. 13:9-12, “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known.”

    “That which is perfect (COMPLETE)” is the COMPLETION of that which is in part. We KNOW “in part” and we PROPHESY “in part” refers to the proclamation of the gospel by divine will as the apostles were teaching by the use of spiritual gifts. When Jesus promised to guide the apostles into “all truth ” (John 6:13) it was not done all at once. During the first century these inspired men were each revealing the parts of the whole gospel as the Lord was revealing it to them through the Holy Spirit (via spiritual gifts). It was not until almost the close of the first century that the whole had been revealed.

    Paul gives us an illustration. When a child grows up (matures) and becomes full grown, he puts away that which is childish. “I spoke as a child” – immature thoughts and ideas; “understood as a child” – lacking in knowledge; “I thought as a child” – reasoning based upon limited knowledge and understanding. He compared it to trying to see one’s face in a dark and smoky glass compared to the reality of face to face.

    The purpose of spiritual gifts was both so that the ones who were preaching the gospel would have the exact message from God to proclaim, and that the ones who were the listeners would know this revelation was from God and not man (read 1 Corinthians 2:1-5). Paul said that his “message and preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.”

    Don’t ever wish you could go back to that time when they had spiritual gifts. Don’t ever think that we have less than they did then. We have the PERFECT revelation from God. Desiring “spiritual gifts” is to desire to go back to looking through the “dark glass.”

    Spiritual gifts ceased because their need ceased. Some died instantly. The spiritual gifts of prophecies and knowledge was “done away” [katargeo]. When God finished His gospel to us there was no more need for those spiritual gifts. These spiritual gifts stopped because God stopped revealing. His message was complete. Some spiritual gifts lingered for awhile and died of their own accord. The spiritual gift of tongues would “cease” [pauomai], or stop by itself. One would assume that when the last person died who had the spiritual gift of tongues, that spiritual gift died also.

    Spiritual gifts were never meant to last forever. While the church was in its infancy they were needed. But the church became full grown. God, as in all of those things He created miraculously, gave the church all that it needed to continue to reproduce after itself. That’s why today, when you plant the “seed,” the word of God (Luke 8:11) in fertile soil (the heart of the honest man, Luke 8:15) the fruit that is produced is simply a Christian.

    Now Donna…

    1) If you believe there are still genuine Prophets today, please give me the name of one?
    2) Is the bible not COMPLETE and PERFECT? ;)
    3) Do you believe in EXTRA biblical revelation – gnosis? Do you want to experience more knowledge than can be found in the Bible?
    4) Tongues – http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/07/18/speaking-in-tongues/

  • Smuggler

    Hi Deb’s

    I agree, the office of the Prophet does not exist any more and Prophesy as in “Salvation, predicting and clarifying the future” have ceased.

    Just look at this:
    Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
    Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Jesus said that he came to fulfill the WORD of GOD. Jesus being the WORD OF GOD thus fulfills prophesy. If we still had “prophets” today it would mean thet Jesus did not “complete” his work here on earth and that would make Jesus a liar.
    Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    I believe that we, believers, are a “living prophesy” as prophesied and fulfilled in Jesus…
    Just think . . .if there would be still “prophets” operating today in would mean that we as the “first born” are not “complete” and will have to be “born again and again and again . . to keep up with prophesy… !!! Ok, maybe this is to simplified but i mean, nothing will be SURE because “new things” would be “prophesied” and it be “shifting the goal post” again and again.
    Actually, this is exactly what is happening in the churches today – False prophets announcing new ways to get to heaven . . .

    Everything that we need to know has already been said and recorded. Done Job!
    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    I do believe that we can sometimes “speak” or use scripture in a situation to edify, support en build fellow believers BUT that is not prophesy.

    Prophecy regarding the ceasing of prophecy . . .
    Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
    Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
    Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
    Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
    Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Smuggler

    >> and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    And what is the testimony of Jesus? The Bible :)

    >> nothing will be SURE because “new things” would be “prophesied” and it be “shifting the goal post” again and again. Actually, this is exactly what is happening in the churches today – False prophets announcing new ways to get to heaven . . .

    EXACTLY!!!

    Satan knows that knowledge is a real killer – because he can add to and take away from God’s PERFECT WORD. And you are 100% correct that Jesus came to fulfill the Word of God.

    >> I do believe that we can sometimes “speak” or use scripture in a situation to edify, support en build fellow believers BUT that is not prophesy

    Absolutely, but this is totally different to being a Prophet.

    I know that people like to quote that verse about, 1 Thessalonians 5:19-20 “19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies.”, but it is speaking about the Prophets of the time and those who were put there to look over the church, to build the foundation.

  • Burning Lamp

    I believe the Bible teachese there is currently a “gift of prophecy” BUT it does NOT mean predicting the future. The BIBLE has ALL the answers!! End of story! However, the gift of prophecy today is the FORTHTELLING of the truth of the Word for particular situations. It NEVER goes beyond the Word of God, but rather expounds the Word. I think this may be where some folks who think there are prophets and apostles today get confused.

    Also “discerning of spirits” enters into the picture. There are those in the Church that can smell a phony or a wolf a mile away and have the urgency to warn the sheep. It has always been my understanding from teaching and Bible study that these work together.

    I hope I have not created confusion here, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit does impart giftings to believers for service today, but anything to do with extra-biblical revelation is NOT for today. The Bible is perfect and complete and nothing further is needed as to the foretelling of future events. Anyone who engages in doing so is a false prophet.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    >> I believe the Bible teachese there is currently a “gift of prophecy” BUT it does NOT mean predicting the future. ….. the gift of prophecy today is the FORTHTELLING of the truth of the Word for particular situations.

    I think I explained that already in the article re: 1 Corinthians 14:3 ;) I made a small amendment to the article to make it more clear and added your words “This is FORTH TELLING of the truth of the Word of God, not FORETELLING the future.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Matthias

    So I am wrong and YOU are right? May the Holy Spirit GIVE YOU A MORE humble spirit.

    >> find many examples of genuine visions, which still occur in our time, for example in the revivals in indonesia, among the Zulus etc.

    That will be that day.

  • Matthias

    Dear Deborah,

    I am NOT claiming, that I have looked at everything. I am refering to your attitude of “I looked at all of this”. And I am NOT saying or insinuating that I am right and you are wrong. I refer to your attitude of you having allegedly “looked at all of this” and you now seem to believe that you are right and everybody else is wrong, who disagrees with you. This is the exact opposite of a humble spirit in my opinion.

    Could you please explain your comment: “That will be that day.”

    I don’t understand what you mean.

    I change my opinion very often and will continue to do so in the future, because I do NOT know everything, not by a long shot. In my experience do people who think they know everything about any specific topic shut out the Holy Spirit to reveal to them further truth.

    May God bless you,
    Matthias

  • Donna

    I believe as BL as expressed in his comment on Jan. 18, 4:06 PM & also as Deb as expressed in her comment on Jan. 18, 4:14 PM. That is what I really meant. Never meant that I believed in anything extra biblical or that I or anyone needs to go to see a prophet b/c we can hear from the Lord ourselves. The gifts I do believe in as for today, tho.

    Also, I never said that I didn’t believe in the catching away (rapture) of the saints to join the Lord. I simply do not believe that those are alive at the Lord’s coming will be snatched away before tribulation.

  • Burning Lamp

    Matthias, I agree with Debs – dispensationalism is not a trap – it is rightly dividing the Word of God. Without it confusion reigns – with it, there is order and understanding to the Scriptures.

    Putting one’s faith in visions is not only dangerous, but foolish. The Lord has given us His Holy Spirit to teach us and lead and guide us through His Word and as we seek Him with all our heart. Remember, Mormonism was established on a vision.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Donna

    Ahhhh okie dokie. That makes more sense.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Matthias

    Well Matthias IF I HAVE LOOKED AT EVERYTHING regarding a certain subject then low and behold dude, I HAVE. My word, what’s wrong with you people. If you are right, then prove me wrong! Go ahead buddy, PROVE ME WRONG. And I got to know what I know on this subject through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and when there is more to reveal He will show me.

    The words, “That will be the day” means…. “nonsense”, “rubbish”. I live in Africa, there are no visions in the African community that one can ever call Godly. I don’t know why they need visions, when they have the bible, in their own official languages.

  • Matthias

    [DELETED by DTW: Comments like 'Not even God can correct you' are totally out of line and makes me wonder what spirit speaks through you. DO NOT COMMENT ON THIS BLOG AGAIN]

  • Brilliant article. I actually wrote and teach the same lesson. Of course I come across many who disagree and want to get into arguments about it all.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Gerhard

    Thanks a mil. Now I just pray people listen because it will save them so much trouble in the end.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Linda

    What part of my article didn’t you understand? Secondly, this is NOT an article about the RAPTURE, if you want to discuss that please go here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/01/06/the-rapture-an-article-to-knock-your-socks-off/ and

  • Burning Lamp

    Thanks for the anwer Debs – you are right, this is hijacking this thread and needs to be taken under the correct thread about the Rapture. Apparently this is a hot button for you Donna. Donna, please go to the Rapture thread and read it thoroughly and then come back. See you over at the Rapture thread. Please read it carefully first. Also, please read the info at this link for verses regarding the imminent return of Christ and give feedback over at the Rapture thread.

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Harry_Ironside/not_wrath_but_rapture.htm

  • Eric von Anderseck (leader of cult) – Comment removed due to extreme nature of false teaching – See this article for more info: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/02/28/mystery-christ-blowing-his-trumpet-at-mossel-bay-has-been-identified/

  • Apostle Eric vonAnderseck

    Eric von Anderseck (leader of cult) – Comment removed due to extreme nature of false teaching – See this article for more info: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/02/28/mystery-christ-blowing-his-trumpet-at-mossel-bay-has-been-identified/

  • Dan

    Brilliant! This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for posting.

  • sylesa

    But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or

    that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
    Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
    Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is

    the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be

    afraid of him. If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
    Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other

    gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
    Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your

    God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice,

    and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
    Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn

    you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house

    of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put

    the evil away from the midst of thee.
    Deu 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy

    friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou

    hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
    Deu 13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee,

    from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
    Deu 13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither

    shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
    Deu 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and

    afterwards the hand of all the people.
    Deu 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from

    the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
    Deu 13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you

  • Helen

    Hi Deborah, There is NO BIBLICAL passages that refer to cessationism, How would you interpret the whole of 1 Corinthians 14? Paul clearly says to desire spiritual gifts, in v 1, and as for the verse regarding the following,

    8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

    9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).

    10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded)

    Means that when Christ returns and we are made perfect THEN the gifts will cease!

    How else is God able to communicate with us? Jesus sent the Holy spirit so we can call upon him to hear God’s voice, That the medium in which we hear God. I know we have the Bible as God’s spoken word, I know the Bible is God’s truth. If what we “hear” from God isn’t matching with scripture we can reject it, if what we receive does match scripture we can accept it.

    James ch1v5 says “if any of you lack wisdom let him ASK of God, that giveth to ALL MEN liberally , and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him” (KJV)

    So that says God is able to speak to us directly through the holy spirit words of wisdom we ask for. When we are stuck.

    If you think all supernatural gifts have ceased then you might as well say the supernatural gift of the holy spirit has creased as well and the supernatural gift of redemption and grace! COME ON! let us use our heads! Ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation, discernment and wisdom!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Helen

    >> Means that when Christ returns and we are made perfect THEN the gifts will cease!

    BLLLLEEEEEEP! Wrong. That which is perfect is the bible :) read the comments ABOVE where I explain this MORE CLEARLY.

  • anastasis

    Let me offer a comment:

    For the sake of argument, let’s take the view that the Bible is unclear and so there could be prophets today.

    Fine. But if this is the case, we’d expect to see genuine cases where people prophesy things that come true. And we don’t see any, either in church history or the present day.

    Ditto for speaking in tongues and healing.

    It is a valid and accepted theological approach to use tradition, experience, and reason in situations where we have to choose between multiple possible interpretations of scripture. And this all suggests cessationism. It’s not certain, but it’s more likely than not.

    Cessationism, for the sake of Helen, is the view that certain miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit existed to for a short period prior to the completion of the New Testament. It’s got nothing to do with salvation.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    anastasis

    >> But if this is the case, we’d expect to see genuine cases where people prophesy things that come true. And we don’t see any, either in church history or the present day.

    Exactly.

  • Helen

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Helen>> Means that when Christ returns and we are made perfect THEN the gifts will cease!BLLLLEEEEEEP! Wrong. That which is perfect is the bible :) read the comments ABOVE where I explain this MORE CLEARLY.

    What makes you think that which is made perfect refers to the bible?
    That which is made perfect NOT that which is perfect! Made perfect- The Bible is perfect the word of God, so how could it be made perfect? maybe I’m being thick here !

    Don’t get all silly and go Wrong blllleeep like a child ! We are adults not childern! Sorry to sound all cranky but I hate it when people do that! It is not necessary. I don’t do it to you!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Helen

    I told you to READ THE COMMENTS ABOVE where it’s EXPLAINED very very CLEARLY why. If you don’t want to scroll up and read the exegesis as to why it’s NOT Christ, but the BIBLE, then please, don’t.
    And I am sorry that you don’t have a sense of humour. BLEEEP!

  • PASTOR MARK CHINCHEN

    IF THAY HAVE ENDED THEN WHY NOT EVANGELISTS WHY NOT TEACHERS WE HAVE THE TEACHER THE HOLY GHOST JUST ASKING

  • Matthew

    Do you guys think it important to also consider the prophesies in Zechariah 12-13:6 which talk about prophesy ceasing “in that day”?

  • Martin Horan

    The answer to Pastor Mark Chinchen’s comment, which is a fair enough question, is rather simple: because God tells us so in the Bible! The prophets were until John, according to Jesus Himself [Luke 16:16]. Are we going to argue with Him?
    I have heard many prophecies given by people claiming to speak for God. I can’t remember one, whether for a single person or the church or the world at large, to come true. As they were spoken in the Name of the Lord, those who spoke them were false prophets.
    Benny Hinn set a date when God would destroy all the homosexuals in California. The date he gave passed years ago. California’s still full of homosexuals. Of course, maybe Hinn was actually correct and the rest of us are simply hallucinating. But I don’t think so.
    If Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John, that’s good enough for me.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Martin

    Oh yes indeed… :)

    Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

  • granvil

    Hi All

    @Deborah: I am a cessationist, definately, the scripture teaches that the gifts will end, just not at the time you think it will end. Did Paul not write in 1 Cor 1v7 “…that you would come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”? This text explains the term in 1Cor 13v10. The scriptures cannot contradict itself, and context determines meaning. The text in 1 Cor 1v7 and “until that which is perfect is come” is the same event as both these texts speak of the gifts, and both these texts indicate a time of ceasing, written by the same writer, to the same audience, a couple of chapters apart. It is as if the Holy Spirit through Paul preempts the controversy over the timing of the cessation of the gifts, and gives us the answer in no uncertain terms before the question, so to speak. Don’t you just love the bible!
    Now having said that, am I happy about how most misuse the gifts no, but niether was Paul, he never denied the gifts its place, he just wrote what he did to make sure it is done decently and in order. In fact he again says that we should covet to prophecy and forbid not the speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14 v38). And he writes this as a command of the Lord, And what does he say to those who would despise it “Let those who want to be ignorant, be ignorant!” Classic! I love the scriptures!

    In Christ
    g.

  • Just to share my thoughts.. Continuing to read the 1 Cor 13, it says.. And only three things remain, faith Hope and love. If perfection refers to Second coming of Christ.. There will be more confusion.. When Christ comes, Hope and Faith is not necessary as we are already seeing what we believe and the promise has already come.
    Remember that every knee will bow when He comes as we will all witness Gods glory.

  • Dr. Calvin

    Dear Deborah and dear Martin Horan,
    I do not agree with your argument based on your deduction of Luke 16: 16.
    « The answer to Pastor Mark Chinchen’s comment, which is a fair enough question, is rather simple: because God tells us so in the Bible! The prophets were until John, according to Jesus Himself [Luke 16:16]. Are we going to argue with Him?…»

    Can we discuss this other proclamation made by Jesus when John the Baptist ministry had already ended:
    Matt 23:34 — New International Version (©1984)
    « Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.»
    You also agree with me that the book of Revelation is a book of prophecy, which is not ”less prophetical” than the book of Esaiah.
    Yet, my dears, the author of Revelation, John the apostle, lived and exercised this prophetical ministry by the end of the first century, many decades after John the Baptist and Jesus had gone.
    Now, tell me how you put Matt 23:34 and the book of Revelation together with what you are claiming !
    The shame of our christianity to day, is the fact that people try to teach on topics that they don’t know or know very little.
    I was trying to see a bit more into what Deborah wants to teach in her article, but I was suddently choked by the fact that in stead of correcting you Martin Horan, she reacts to your argumentation by saying this:
    « Oh yes indeed… :
    Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” »

    Does Deborah just want people who support her with any kind of argument, or people who present the truth accurately from a profound and consistent knowledge of the topic ?
    Please see below, the same verse of Matt 23:34 in almost all the translations: Our lord is clearly calling them PROPHETS, and John the apostle was clearly just one of them. Then, if you are humble, then you will agree that that you need the Holy Spirit to help you understand what the Lord was saying in Luke 16:16.

    MATTHEW 23:34

    New International Version (©1984)
    Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    “Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    “That is why I am sending you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will whip in your synagogues and persecute from town to town.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    Because of this behold, I am sending to you Prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will murder and you will crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and you will persecute them from city to city

    GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    I’m sending you prophets, wise men, and teachers of the Scriptures. You will kill and crucify some of them. Others you will whip in your synagogues and persecute from city to city.

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    American King James Version
    Why, behold, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you whip in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    American Standard Version
    Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:

    Darby Bible Translation
    Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them ye will kill and crucify, and some of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will persecute from city to city;

    English Revised Version
    Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    Wherefore behold, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them ye will kill and crucify, and some of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    Weymouth New Testament
    “For this reason I am sending to you Prophets and wise men and Scribes. Some of them you will put to death–nay, crucify; some of them you will flog in your synagogues and chase from town to town;

    World English Bible
    Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city;

    Young’s Literal Translation
    ‘Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city;

    In Conclusion:
    whether there are still prophets today is some other debate. Whether their writings can become part of the holy Bible is out of question. But to say that God has not sent any prophet after John the Baptist and Jesus, this is a misunderstanding of Luke 16:16, creating a clear contradiction with what the above verse in Matt 23:34 says and with the book of Revelation. Yet, I am not saying that all those who claim to be prophets today are prophets.

  • Jake

    As far as I understand it, prophecy is not always about new redemptive revelation, otherwise there would be no need for it after Christ (Christ is the final redemptive revelation. However, there was prophecy after Christ which was never added to scripture (Acts 21:8).

    Anyway, it’s a bit presumptuous and prideful to be discussing this issue as if it is clear from scripture. Scholars disagree – men who have studied the languages and passages for many years. Let’s not be divided as brothers and sisters over such a topic. Just because you don’t know of prophets does not mean they don’t exist. We must base our beliefs on doctrine, not experience. Likewise, just because you think you’ve met a prophet and been prophesied over doesn’t mean they do exist.

  • Can someone please explain the other half of Jesus’ declaration?

    The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luke 16:16, KJV)

    If you’re trying to say that after John the Baptist there were no more prophets, then does that mean there is no more law as well? And if so, then how do you reconcile Jesus’ very next statement as well as what he said in Matthew?

    And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. (Luke 16:17, KJV)

    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18, KJV)

    Obviously heaven and earth haven’t yet passed away so…?

    Also, how would you tie in the first part of his declaration with the second? Since that time (after John the Baptist), the kingdom of God is preached and every man presses into it?

  • Gabriela

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    anastasis
    >> But if this is the case, we’d expect to see genuine cases where people prophesy things that come true. And we don’t see any, either in church history or the present day.
    Exactly.

    David Wilkerson´s 1974 book, The Vision. Almost every prophesy on that book has been fufilled and some are on their way, things that were thought impossible for that time.David Wilkerson was one of the most Godly men of our time.

    Just a thought: why would Jesus warn us of false prophets if supposedly there are no real prophets in our time? wouldn´t he just have said beware of prophets? I think “when the perfect comes” refers to our transformation from these mortal bodies into eternal life with Christ in his kindgdom where prophesy won’t be needed. Isn´t everytime we receive an instruction from God about a certain direction to take, a prophesy? Or you don´t believe God speaks to his people still?

    God bless!

  • Colin Ford

    I happened upon this site through a link.

    I must confess that I haven’t read any of David Wilkerson’s prophecies, although I understand that many call him a false prophet. Sound Christian.com/Rapture Ready describe him as an accredited false prophet. I may add that I am NOT a believer in the pre-tribulation rapture.
    As I understand the Lord Jesus Christ’s words in Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 etc, He warns us against deception and false prophets (we have them by the bucket load!). He never once tells us to listen to another prophet.(The canon was closed after the book of Revelation).
    As said above God has spoken to us in these last days through the Lord Jesus Christ (Heb 1.2). The book of Revelation penned by John was, as my bible reveals to me God’s last revelation to mankind in this ‘Age of Grace’ or ‘Times of the gentiles’ that we are now in before the coming Day of the Lord and glorious Millennial reign.

    We all have access to the Abiding Word of God and we can read the OT Prophets/NT prophetic Word in order to make sense of what is going on in this wicked world-there are many Christians that do this.
    God tells us to ‘take heed’ of the prophetic Word- 2 Peter 1.19.

    There were false prophets aplenty in Israel of old, how many more are there today in this Christian era?!

    If only these self styled ‘prophets and teachers would’ take heed of James 3.1.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Gabriela

    1st) David Wilkerson had many FALSE PROPHECIES – That makes him a false prophet.
    2nd) Wilkerson taught Latter Rain Manifest Sons of God teachings; He promoted five-fold restoration of prophets and apostles and an especially “holy” company of the Church taking the world for Christ before Christ can return.
    3rd) At David Wilkersons Mount Zion School of Ministry there is a woman by the name of President Catherine and she bases her ‘spirituality’ on the New Age teachings of a woman by the names of Hannah Hurnard and her teachings are taught at Mount Zion’s. David Wilkerson got a lot of his ‘spiritual filling’ from Hannah Hurnard’s teachings as well.

    New Age Teachings And Book Reviews Exploring Hannah’s Spreading Heresy A Book Review of, Hinds’ Feet, –Hannah Hurnard [ ]

    A Book Review of, Mountains of Spices, –Hannah Hurnard

    A Book Review of, Hungry for More of Jesus, — Dave Wilkerson. http:/i-Plus.net/thorpe/Zion/Hungry.htm

    David Wilkerson is forward Hannah’s Quaker Theology of personal suffering unto inner purification.
    Hannah, New Age and Beyond! A Book Review of, Eagles’ Wings, –Hannah Hurnard Incredible!

    A Book Review of, The Inner Man, –Hannah Hurnard Unthinkable!

    What others are saying about Hannah Hurnard’s heresy. http://www.pfo.org/high-pla.htm and

    Lastly

    >> Or you don´t believe God speaks to his people still?

    Yes, he speaks to his children via the Holy Spirit who points you to the Word of God (Jesus Christ)

    Hebrews 1:2

    “2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;” (Heb 1.2)

  • simp

    Some people set themselves up as God. They think they are always right. They think they know it all.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    simp

    The Word of God is always right and my article is based on the Word of God.

  • David

    Hello. I have looked over some of your articles (a lot which are interesting) but couldn’t help but ask for explanations on this one. In the article it says Jesus was the last and greatest, of course I don’t have any problems with him being the greatest but if one looks in acts 13:1 (AMP), it reads “Now in the church (assembly) at Antioch there were prophets (inspired interpreters of the will and purposes of God) and teachers: Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger [Black], Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.” This means that there were prophets after Christ’s ascension, of course I still don’t believe that all prophets are real today. Appreciate your intentions and hope you can provide and answer soon. God bless you all.

  • David

    Hello again. Forgot to mention one more thing that wasn’t in the article but was on the comments. They talked about Luke 16:16 saying that “there were the Law and the Prophets”, if I learned anything about detail and the Bible, its the capitalization. When it says prophet, its a prophet. When it says the Prophet, its Lord Jesus. When its says the Prophets, its the scrolls of the old testament prophets. The last comment was more of a question but this one is more of a statement, but when Jesus said this, he was already telling the people about grace. “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17) and then Romans 6:14 says, “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” This shows us that is why Jesus said “were”. It really didn’t have anything to do with prophets themselves. Thanks again for taking your time to read this. God bless you!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    David

    The ending of prophets and Apostles has got nothing to do with Christ’s ascension, but with the completion of writing the Word of God (the Bible) which is none other than Jesus in written Word.

    1 Corinthians 13:8 (amp) ”Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].”

    Jesus Christ =Truth = The Word of God (in written from)

    Paul says that LOVE never fails and this leads us to the 1 commandment that Jesus spoke about in

    and Jesus said
    Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
    Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

    If you love Jesus with all your heart and all your soul, you will automatically love your neighbor and preach the Truth to them. The two are mutually inclusive. You can’t love Jesus and not want to love your neighbour (preach the Gospel to Him) and vice versa.

    2 John 1:5 “And now I beseech you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
    2 John 1:6 “And this is love, that we walk after His commandments. This is the commandment, That, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.”

    Revelation 22:18 ”if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”.

    In those days Paul and the other Apostles wrote and prophesied in part – in other words they did not know everything until it was give to them by the Holy Spirit.

    Paul said in…

    1 Corinthians 13:8-11 (amp); “9For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect). 10But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded). 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.

    The perfect = The Word of God

    Truth = The Word of God

    Jesus Christ = Truth

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    David

    >> one more thing that wasn’t in the article but was on the comments. They talked about Luke 16:16 saying that “there were the Law and the Prophets”, if I learned anything about detail and the Bible, its the capitalization. When it says prophet, its a prophet. When it says the Prophet, its Lord Jesus. When its says the Prophets, its the scrolls of the old testament prophets.

    The KJV 1611 says lower lace ‘law’ and upper case ‘P’.

    Luke 16:16 The law and the Prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Matt 11:12-13)

    This simply means that the ministry of John the Baptist ushered in a new dispensation or era. The old dispensation was coming to an end and would end at the cross of Jesus Christ. In the meantime the Kingdom of God was preached and people were invited to repentance and faith. Many tried to press in, but in reality (like today) were not children of the Kingdom (they were false). Only a new birth, being born again, only through regeneration, as Jesus explained to Nicodemus in (Joh 3:3) can one only ever enter the Kingdom of God.

    So no Words which God has spoken can fail, ever, in fulfillment, no matter how people react to the Gospel proclemation. All the demands of the law must be met either by those who come under it’s condemnation, or by Jesus Christ who came in Grace to bear the sinners curse on the cross for the whole world. God’s Word was to be carried out even to the crucifying of His own Begotten Son when He took the repentant sinner’s place.

    And then came the written Word of God (Jesus Christ in Written Word, understandable by born again Christians only through the Holy Spirit)

    Does thateth maketh senseth? :)

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Debs,
    Can you reply to Dr Calvin’s comment http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/01/17/are-prophets-for-today-or-has-prophecy-ceased/#comment-218464.

    He is a friend of mine of the pentecostal-charismatic denomination I used to be member of. I sent him this article about the cessation of the offices of apostles and prophets, and he was kind enough to read it and initiate a discussion about it with you and Martin Horan.

  • David

    Lol maketh senseth. Funny. Anyways I didn’t mean to say Christ’s ascension had anything to do with the apostles and prophets but merely wanted to know that since in the article it was written that Christ was the last prophet on Earth how in acts it has multiple times where it refers to prophets Acts (11:27, 13:1, 15:32, 21:10) so I understand what you say with the whole word of God being truth. For the response to Luke 16:16, I understand that the new era was coming in with the sacrifice made on the cross, was just making a clarification that they referred to the old testament. Thanks and God bless.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    No problem, I will get to it, (I dunno why I missed it). Sorry, I usually answer everyone 99% of the time.

  • David

    One more thing that I didn’t add because I didn’t know where it was at the time but in Revelations 2:2 (KJV)”I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars.”

    Question is why would the scripture even mention testing the apostles if they were supposedly stopped a long time ago? If apostles continue then how can all the ministries function except for the prophets?

    Revelations 11:3,6,10 (KJV)”3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”

    “6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”

    “10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.”

    Question is that if the word says prophecy will be done away with and there is no mention of it coming back, then how can it be here at the end times? If these two witnesses are called prophets, then what stops the ministry from being active today? These two have to be new prophets because even if people want to say its the return of old testament prophets then it would be the same case as when Jesus called John the baptist the Elijah which was to come (Matthew 17:12-13)

    If Jesus says in Matthew 5:18 (KJV) “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

    Then how is it possible for the scripture to be what does away with the prophets if it is still around when these prophets appear?

    Very interested in hearing ur response to this and the last comment about the prophets mentioned in acts. Please get around to it whenever possible I know its a bombardment out of nowhere but I really do want to see which point of view is right so the body can move on forward in peace and unity. God bless you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    David

    You quote…

    Rev 2:2 “I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:”

    Believers in the days of Ephesus could not bear those who were evil. (again this was before the Word of God was had been written and closed) That little Ephesian Church were loyal to the truth. They tried those who claimed to be apostles, and if they found they were deceivers they refused them as liars. So there were many people in those days who claimed to be Apostles but were NOT, just like today. But since the Bible has been written, God has made it easier for us to spot a fake because he has stopped the office of Apostle and Prophet for the Church Dispensation. Anyone who elevates themselves to that level needs to be questioned. Simple. We have teachers and preachers and then the Holy Spirit who guides us into ALL TRUTH.

    You quote…

    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
    Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

    This is during the tribulation. The two witnesses are none other than Elijah and Moses sent back to earth by God specifically for the GREAT Tribulation and they will preach and prophecy to Israel for 3 and a half years only and then the anti-Christ will kill them. There will also be 144,000 Jews Sealed by God during the Tribulation who will have power to preach as well.

    You need to please read this to get a correct biblical perspective of the Church dispensation and the time of the tribulation (Time set aside for Israel):
    This article explains Joel 2 and Acts:
    Your Sons Your Daughters Will Prophesy, But Not Yet… and
    And then please read this because you need to understand Kingdom Now theology: Yes a Future Kingdom, but not a Kingdom Now

    I think it’s about time you go and study scripture for yourself because clearly you do not know your bible at all, because I get the feeling you are trying to catch me out and I am sorry to say that is not going to happen.

  • David

    Well sorry if it seemed to come off that way. Really don’t mean to offend but got to say the fact that you say I clearly don’t know the bible does hurt especially since I have seen the articles you refer to and read the other perspectives, please do not have pride in your knowledge, others do research as well. I really did want to come to a point where the questions can be answered to know if you were right or wrong, but have to say there are some questions still not answered. At this point it would be redundant to continue though so thank you for your time and God bless.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    David

    >> You said in your previous comment, “Very interested in hearing ur response to this and the last comment about the prophets mentioned in acts. Please get around to it whenever possible I know its a bombardment out of nowhere but I really do want to see which point of view is right so the body can move on forward in peace and unity.”

    I felt like you were testing me and trying to catch me out by this statement, “Very interested in hearing ur response to this” I mean really? And then “I know its a bombardment out of nowhere” like I have never heard this type of question before? like ‘ha ha you got me now’…

    I am doing my best here to help you and you seem to be trying to catch me out for the sake of peace and unity? Peace and unity with who?

    All the answers are in the BIBLE David, but it would appear you have now found it redundant to continue to find the answers…all because I said that is clear you don’t know your bible, what a cop-out.

    The bible says:

    2Tim 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

  • David

    That is why I apologized because I didn’t mean for there to be a miscommunication. I was giving a bombardment to questions that support the opposing side of the article to see what your counter argument would be. I didn’t mean for it to sound as if I caught you in anything, I merely said that since you hadn’t responded to the previous comment and didn’t mean to impose. As for your cop-out response, I didn’t mean give up completely, but rather continue searching on my own. What sense would it make to give up over something so childish? I will continue searching, no worries. I know your doing your best and maybe you have just had a lot of aggressive writers which is what had you see it that way. Again, I didn’t mean to, a lot of your articles are interesting. Have a great day and God bless you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    David

    OK, I understand. I apologize as well. Please do carry on asking me questions, that is what I am here for.

  • David

    Thanks. Do you have an article on the James Holmes shooting and how the illuminati planned it? Its something I learned about recently and wondered if you knew about it yet. If not I recommend checking lil wayne’s “still my homie” video (of course I don’t listen to hip hop but someone told me about it which caught my attention). There is a lot of symbolism behind it but the ending is what I think you will find really surprising.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    David

    No I had not heard that one, what I had figured out was that this guy who did the shooting was kinda possessed by The Joker. Even his hair was dyed red.

  • Hanelie

    I’ve visited this thread numerous times, praying for clarity: wisdom, discernment. Then, this morning, I read Luke 16:16, and decided to return here again. And, for the first time, it made sense – I understood what Deborah meant in her explanation of 1 Cor 14:3. I think it is well summarized in the following words (transcription of a sermon) of David Legge:

    A literal translation of 1 Corinthians 14 and verse 3 is this: ‘This gift of prophecy was for edification, for encouragement, and for consolation’. You may have the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and I do not minimise anyone’s experience of God the Holy Spirit – for I do not want to put the sovereign God into a box – but let me say this: generally God does not speak to us immediately today. God speaks to us ‘mediately’, through a medium. The Spirit of God who has inspired these pages for our benefit, when God wants to speak to you He will not bypass or contradict His own inspired word by His Holy Spirit. Now listen: there are no apostles today, there are no prophets today, but what we do have is the apostle’s doctrine and the word of prophecy – we have the word of God.

    In that light, we can proclaim it all we like – and that’s what astounds me: we have a greater gift than the prophets had in their day! Yet many men want to call themselves prophets, and prophesy this, that and the other, and miss the mark many of the time – when we have the definite, absolute, authoritative word of God, and if we preach and proclaim it we’ll never go wrong! That is New Testament prophecy today, for the way in which we prophesy is to take the word of God and to preach it! The old puritan got it right when he wrote the book: ‘The Art Of Prophesying’ – he was speaking about how to preach the word of God, how to prophesy: to proclaim the word of God abroad! We have a warning from the word of God in Revelation 22, that if we add to the prophecy of God’s word, of God’s prophecy, if we take away from it, we run the danger of losing our own souls!

    We have no need of people foretelling the future. None. What had been bugging me is that God had certainly used people (prophets, I thought) to show me the way, the Truth as it really is in the Bible. That was the first thing He did – return me to the Bible (that which religion had systematically undermined for me, telling me I could not really believe all of it). But, I understand now that these “prophets” who had shown me the way, were just teaching from the Word.

    Isn’t the massive following of modern day prophets enough evidence that they are not prophets?

  • Hanelie

    Oh, and maybe I can just add the following (same source as above), because it made me think of so much of what I have read and learned here.

    I believe that we have caved in to the pressure today of the spirit of tolerance in our society. I really do, I believe we’re afraid! We’re afraid of the world and what they’ll do, we’re afraid of what our family and our friends will say: ‘He’s shoving religion down my throat again’ – and we cave in. We are caught, as the word of God says, ‘in the snare that is the fear of man’. We have listened to the prophets of modern evangelism who tell you not to speak of hell but of a ‘lost eternity’, to speak not of sin but of ‘mistakes’, to preach not the shed blood of Christ but only a ‘giving of a life for others’, to preach not a life of holiness but a ‘life of wholeness and happiness’ – it’s very subtle, isn’t it? But then we wonder why the light isn’t shining into the darkness. God, give us a fearless, fiery, fervent band of preachers and proclaimers and Christians who will resist unto blood, striving against sin!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hannelie

    You got it:)

    >> Isn’t the massive following of modern day prophets enough evidence that they are not prophets?

    You are so right, and the bible warned that this would happen.

  • Redeemed

    What impresses me most about all of this is that we are being given just a glimpse of what will be unleashed after the Church is taken out of this world. It is being held back for now and those who believe Christians will go through the GT are underestimating the intense onslaught of evil that will be enjoying full freedom to come out with full force. It is beyond our imagination!

    I do believe that many of these messages are subliminal, designed to condition the minds of mankind. It may serve a dual purpose as well – to send signals to those who are “in the know”.

    The evil that is to come will most likely have a facade of benevolence in the beginning for those who are in chaos and grasping at straws.
    The Bible indicates such.

    We are seeing much confusion that seems to be escalating, even amongst Christians. I do think that eschatology is a major key and many have been deceived and detoured away from the truth. How one perceives what the Bible says about endtime events is quite consequential. Not regarding salvation, but in one’s effectiveness as a believer and one’s priorities as we near the end of time as we know it.

    Some will see the events described here and be filled with anticipation and encouraged to reach the lost and walk circimspectly before the Lord and be ready for His return. Others will become fearful and filled with dread and seek to prepare in fleshly ways. They may consider the former group as ill-prepared and being set up for destruction. This is part of the endtime confusion of the enemy.

    That is not the topic of this thread, but it is related. All I can say brethren and sisteren lol is keep looking up – your Redemption draws nigh. Don’t let anyone rob you of the Blessed Hope.

  • Robbie

    Debs/Hanelie

    Just used that very same phrase (massive followers of false prophets as evidence)

    Kids running after Mr. Clement
    I am going to imitate Benni Hinn:
    “… if only I could find the verse in the Bible that says… “beware of discerners and watchmen!”

    arrggggggghhhhhhh

    Thanks, I feel better now…

  • Hector

    Prophets do not exist today. The gift of prophecy is active today only to confirm what has been written in the Word of God. In my opinion the office of the prophet would be the modern preacher,teacher and pastor of a congretation which speaks the Word of God according to the SCripture which is the fullfilment of all prophecies.

  • Carm

    I like quoting scripture, because that’s what got me out of the charismatic movement and the NAR. I was in a para-church ministry that went very weird and very NAR (or rather, I just suddenly woke up and realised that I’m in a cult). Eph 2:20 started milling in my mind and I suddenly realised that the old testament prophets and new testament apostles formed the foundation of the church, with Christ as corner-stone of course… that’s a biggie for me because I was raised in the 1980s WOF movement (which made me a bit of an outcast in Dutch-Reformed SA). But I realised that if you bring in a new prophetic and new apostolic, then you are laying down a new foundation… which is different from that foundation which was laid down for us 2000 ago… for a different church… with a different Jesus.

    Anyways, it takes God to open your eyes… and that can only happen if you have any regard for the authority of Scripture. God got me back on track about the authority of Scripture (above visions, audible voices and angels), after I prayed and asked what is important to Him and what He wants me to focus on (at that time I was at the cutting-edge of ignorance), and He gave me Psalm 138:2 “For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.”

  • Marc Collins

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Helen

    >> Means that when Christ returns and we are made perfect THEN the gifts will cease!

    BLLLLEEEEEEP! Wrong. That which is perfect is the bible :) read the comments ABOVE where I explain this MORE CLEARLY.

    How do we explain Acts 13 where there are prophets after Christ ascended? Just asking… Maybe I’ve misunderstood…

  • Truth Preacher

    [deleted - I am not a cessationist, you go to Jesus Christ directly for healing, etc. Nor am I a Calvinist]

  • Jaco du Preez

    Debora

    You say that the perfect is the Bible?

    You also say that there are no prophets, can you please explain Ephesians 4:10-15 then? He gave prophets, apostles, evangelists, pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints and then uses the word Till, so does that not then mean that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers will be there until we all come unto a perfect man (us)?

    Is the perfect that Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 13 not what is referred to in Eph 4:13, we that come to perfection, that we will be like Him, “unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” a perfect man.

    Because then we will see as in 1 Cor 13:12 states – For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I KNOW EVEN AS ALSO I AM KNOWN.

    Face to face: when you look into a mirror you see your own face. If Christ is the perfect mirror of God and I see face to face in Him, will I not see who I am in Him. And I will see face to face when I am like Him, “unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”.

    What would be your thoughts on this?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jaco du Preez

    Please read the article again, you didn’t read it properly. Regarding 1 Corinthians 13 you are not reading it correctly.

  • louise

    For much of my life I had spoken in tongues and had supported the Charismatic movement, so essentially the office of the prophet had to be for today. I was encouraged by the Holy Spirit to study Gods word for myself. The word of God came alive and it breathed life into my dead brain cells. Oh how I spend many a day crying as I had been one of those many Christians who had spoken in tongues etc. Now I had to go to my family and tell them that i was a phoney and that whatever I had spoken was false. I had accepted all those teachings and now i had to undo years of false teachings. Thats fine as God was in control and when you know God is in control you have that deep inner peace and you smile through it all. The office of the prophet was for the foundation of the church and it ceased once the written Word had been made perfect. One of the issues that helped me put this matter to bed was the issue of prophets. I looked around THE WORLD and saw no fruit of a true prophet and that included Dave Wilkinson who I had once looked upon as a great man of God and he slipped up. He should have been stoned but thats another topic. The men of today who dare call themselves prophets hardly live the live found in the Old Testament that those men of God lived. I had to compare them and there was no comparison. Something was terrible wrong with that picture. So where are the prophets for today and who are they. I could not find one who could fit that bill. We have lowered the standard of Gods word by claiming that prophets are for today and we have stopped fearing God as they did way back. Too often we have been told that God is our “Big Daddy” and he just wants to put us on his lap and give us a big teddy bear hug. Oh no people we have taken the wrong turn in the road. Where is our reverence. Now thinking back when I heard a prophet speak in the church what lacked was that deep deep reverence and too often by the time we had gotten into the car the words of the so called prophet had been forgotten. Why. Because it was not from God. When God speaks he does it through his word and the Holy Spirit. Period. And whats more you will sit up and take notice.

    Copied and Pasted…..Students of the Bible face a particular challenge with 1 Corinthians 13:10 where Paul wrote, “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”
    Some suggest that Paul was referring to the second coming of Christ while others say he meant the completion of scripture.

    A Church Divided

    Let’s begin with an overview of Paul’s letter to the Corinthian church. At the heart of all of their problems was the problem of division. Paul addressed that issue at the very start of his letter (1 Corinthians 1:11). As he continued, he pointed out a number of things which had either led to divisions among them or had been the result of their divisiveness.

    For instance, they were divided over favorite preachers (1 Corinthians 1:12). They were divided because of their lack of concern for the poor (1 Corinthians 11:18-20). They were divided by their competition of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12). Other smaller contentions existed as well.

    Aside from their failure to deal with the sin among them (1 Corinthians 5), their core problem was that of division.

    A Lesson on Love

    Having that in mind, we come to the passage in question. In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul dealt with the issue of spiritual gifts. He taught them that different gifts were given in order that all members of the Lord’s body could function together as one.

    It’s not surprising that Paul would next address the importance of love (or charity) in 1 Corinthians 13. First, he taught that those gifts which the Corinthians so valued were worthless without love (1 Corinthians 13:1-3). Second, he explained love (1 Corinthians 13:4-7). Third, he illustrated the supremacy of love (1 Corinthians 13:8-13).

    Keep in mind, Paul’s primary objective was to teach the Corinthians to embrace this unifying love. The latter part of the chapter was not meant to be an exception. He wanted them to understand the significance of love as well as their need to grow in understanding and perspective.

    Tongues, Prophecy, and Knowledge

    Paul said that love will never become inefficient while prophecies will become inefficient, tongues will come to an end, and knowledge will become void (1 Corinthians 13:8). According to verse 10, this will happen when that which is perfect is come.

    Perhaps we can already see the difficulty in formulating a timeline based on this passage. Paul encouraged prophecy and discouraged tongues in the very next chapter (1 Corinthians 14:1). In other words, Paul suggested that the end of tongues had come or was coming shortly while there was no end in sight for prophecy. Furthermore, at what point—either after the completion of scripture or after the second coming of Christ—would knowledge become void?

    Some insight into the words Paul used there might be helpful. By prophecy, he could have been referring to the gift of divine revelation or he could have been referring to the reiteration of God’s word such as pastors and teachers do today. By knowledge, he used the word, gnosis, which implies a general knowledge as opposed to an intellectual knowledge (epistemon) or a deeper, precise knowledge (epignosis).

    Obviously, prophecy by divine revelation came to an end at the completion of the Bible. However, prophecy by reiteration will not come to an end until the second coming of Christ. That term is not particularly helpful in discerning verse 10. Instead, let’s focus on knowledge.

    Time to Grow Up

    Skipping verse 10 for now, consider what Paul wrote next. In verse 11, he used himself as an example of one who was once childish in his understanding but later became a man. In verse 12, he explained how we do not see clearly but eventually clarity does come. If we consider those verses in light of one another, it is apparent that Paul was talking about growing in maturity.

    If the knowledge he spoke of before means a general or basic understanding, then he was simply encouraging the pursuit of epignosis or a far more mature knowledge. As a matter of fact, Paul wrote in the next chapter, “Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men” (1 Corinthians 14:20).

    Paul apparently felt that the Corinthians were in need of two basic things: love and a deeper understanding.

    That Which is Perfect

    Getting back to the verse in question, what is that which is perfect? Perfect is translated from the Greek word, teleios. It could have a variety of implications so context is key to defining it. In the next chapter, as quoted before, Paul wanted them to be men in their understanding. The word, men, was translated from the exact same word as perfect in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

    In short, Paul’s statement in verse 10 was relatively vague and likely did not allude to any particular event such as the completion of scripture or the second coming of Christ. He simply meant that once they had grown up in their spiritual understanding, they would see the importance of love and the foolishness of competing with one another in the use of spiritual gifts (especially tongues).

    Prophecies would “fail” when their understanding of God’s truth matured. Tongues would “cease” when they grasped the deeper realities of God’s truth. Knowledge would “vanish” as it gave way to a far more profound knowledge of God’s truth.

    Does 1 Corinthians 13:10 have any reference at all to the completion of scripture or the second coming of Christ? Perhaps both. The Bible is full of parallel lessons or teachings with a wide array of implications.

    I wish to leave this with you.

    The church is in trouble as people want the signs and wonders. The bible warned us that this generation seeks after signs and wonders. They want the experience but they don’t want to do the leg work which is to study the word for themselves. Once you begin to study seeking Gods truth the word is opened to you and its like peeling away the many layers. I have had so many “Eureka” moments .

  • Miriam Franklin – End Times Prophetic Words ‘Prophetess’ a Fraud? « Discerning the World

    [...] these visions from because they were not from God.  Please read here on prophecy/visions:  Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? At one point there were some other people running her website and I tried to comment, telling [...]

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