I am writing this article because I do not think that Dr. Chuck Missler is being at all honest with us as to what he really believes and who he ‘works’ for. For some unknown reason Chuck Missler is ‘protected’ in that he seems to be able to get away with all sorts of false prophecy and publishing books on ‘extra biblical’ occult subjects with no one battering an eyelid.
His resume (freely available on the internet) is profound in that Chuck’s interests, companies and world plans all seem to tie in with what he himself tries to expose as bad in his books.
Chuck Missler is not an expert on prophecy, he is helping to orchestrate Biblical prophecy by aiding and abetting the One World Order.
I will let you review the below information and you can ask yourself the question; “Why is a born again Christan ‘serving the people’ by connecting the world via 3 satellites and helping to establish the African Union with a One World Currency?”
I know I am going to get some serious slack for this article, but someone has to say something. And seeing as though I have nothing to lose, let me be that person. In my research I have noted some highly recommended pastors support Chuck Missler, some even have their their books being published on Koinonia House Europe.
I sincerely pray that these pastors that I myself love very much, take heed of what I have written here and re-evaluate their position regarding what the Bible says about false teachers and how it’s even possible for the elect to be deceived.
There are many things that I myself have fallen prey too and sometimes it’s been difficult for me to want to believe I was fooled. I am no one special, but I do my utter best to listen to the Holy Spirit’s warnings and I ask Jesus for forgiveness of these things and rectify my errors so that I do not lead people astray.
It sometimes takes a donkey (or a parrot in this case) to come along and show us something that was so glaringly obvious.
Dr. Charles ‘Chuck’ Missler: (Information below in no particular order)
Chuck and Nancy Missler established Koinonia House in 1973
Chuck Missler also has close ties with Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel (where he preached) which was founded by The Jesus People
Close friend to Hal Lindsey (broadcasts shows on
Trinity Broadcasting Network). Hal Lindsey who had a show on TBN for years had his show removed by TBN in December 2005 because of his criticism against Islam. As of Feb 2007 he was back on TBN hosting his show, “The Hal Lindsey Report”. — http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17439/hal-lindsey
Pat Matrisciana is a director of Chuck Missler’s Koinonia House. Matrisciana also founded Campus Crusade for Christ with Bill Bright
Dr.William Welty was appointed to the board of Directors of Koinonia House on 24 October 2009, which creates, develops, and distributes materials to stimulate, encourage, and facilitate serious study of the Bible as the inerrant Word of God. Koinonia House is located in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho and was founded by Dr. Charles Missler.
Chuck Missler supporter of the Bible Code which is Gematria/Numerology -
literal Qabalah. Book: Hidden Treasures – Chuck Missler highlights many of the trademark discoveries of hidden messages within the Biblical texts that will challenge and excite you! A ‘must read’ for every thinking seeker of truth and serious inquirer of reality. — http://khouse.org.uk/chuck_books.html
On TBN’s 12/29/99 ‘Praise the Lord’ program which Hal Lindsey and Cliff Ford, hosted. One of their guests was Chuck Missler. Missler said he was there for the purpose of endorsing TBN’s movie, The Omega Code, and promoting his own new book on the Code. The Omega Code movie did NOT promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but rather gave credence to the latest big lie — that there are hidden messages in the Bible when one uses the letters as an acrostic puzzle. This is the latest blasphemy sweeping through the professing church — using the Bible as a tool for divination.” –Biblical Discernment Ministries
Occult fascination with UFO’s. Alien Encounters: This book confronts the issues surrounding the sightings of UFOs and alien abductions and offers answers to many of the most pertinent questions. — http://www.alienencounters.com
Dr. Charles W. “Chuck” Missler’s Curriculum Vitae:
Member of a globalist group since 1998, the Council For National Policy (CNP).
Established the first international industrial computer network in 1966 while working at Ford Motor Company.
Founded a computer networking organisation later acquired by Automatic Data Processing (NYSE) to became its Network Services Division. Consultant to the Board of Directors of Rockwell International for corporate acquisitions. Pioneer in computer technologies, participation in the development of some of the most top-secret military systems, including the Stealth bomber, anti-submarine warfare, worked with William E. Simon, former Secretary of Treasury on a strategically sensitive ultraviolet laser project, partnered with Boeing on P-3 upgrade, CEO for Advanced developments for Department of Defense and other deeply classified customers, Global Positioning Satellite systems, Director of Applied Devices Corporation for data processing support services for international oil industry, state lotteries, etc.
Owner of The Phoenix Group, Inc., – 1989
Personally funded the first microchip implementation of the Data Encryption Standard (DES)
Gave false prophecy of Y2K where 2 videos were released by Chuck Missler and John Ankerberg with advertisting title: “The Coming Y2K Computer Crisis Will threaten Anyone Whose Faith is Not in God!”. This ‘false prophecy’ is very peculiar considering his unbelievable resume regarding anything computer orientated. Why would someone who is a genius in the computing field say such a stupid thing.
Partnership with company that will soon launch 3 Satellites that will connect the entire world in the year 2014.
Helping establish the African Union currency called the Auric™ Currency.
Participated in over 100 business ventures as a principal, strategic adviser, or turnaround specialist. Ford Motor Company, TRW, Western Digital Corporation, as well as U.S. and foreign governments.
Missler was Senior participant in highly classified projects serving the intelligence community and the Department of Defense.
Not so long ago Chuck Missler was at the:
God’s News Behind the News International Prophecy Conference 2000 – Orlando Florida, 5-8 April 2000
The prophets were: Jack and Rexella Van Impe, Morris Cerullo, Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, Perry Stone, John Bevere, Ray Brubaker, Joe Van Koevering, Zola Levitt, Chuck Missler, J.R.Church, Gary Kah, and Bill Cloud.
The Quantum Leap II Conference – July 19-21 2007
- Hosted by: The Gateway Christian Fellowship with speakers from The Elijah List, etc:
- David van Koevering (The Elijah List, New Age Occultist) – As a visionary, his gift is the insight to see, and by this observation to cause, and then define and communicate what he saw to others.
- Chuck Missler (Chuck was encouraged by his close friend Hal Lindsey to pursue his long-time love of teaching the Bible on a full-time basis. Hal Lindsey regular on TBN.)
- JoAnn McFatter (The Elijah List- New Age Occultist),
- Steve Swanson – Worship and Arts Director of Extreme Prophetic run by Patricia King (both The Elijah List- New Age Occultists).
- Previous speakers at Quantum Leap I Conference included: Kansas City Prophet Bob Jones along with Mike and Kari Browning.
‘Quantum Leap’ is a popular new age idea of man’s spiritual evolution from human to divine.
“Barbara Marx Hubbard” wrote apologist Brooks Alexander, “has a similar event that she calls a planetary Pentecost. She explains to us that at this time, a ‘quantum leap’ in the evolution of mankind will occur as revealed to her by ‘the Christ’: ‘At the moment of cosmic contact, I will appear to you both through inner experience and through external communication on your mass media.’ Hubbard says, at this time when ‘the divisions of the religions would be over…We would each know that God is within us…If all who feel we are connected to each other, to nature and to God join in a planetary Pentecost, we shall be transformed in this lifetime.’ (Barbara Marx Hubbard and the Armageddon Alternative,” SCP Journal, Vol. 19:2/3, 1995, p. 49).”
Jackie Alnor from Apostasy Alert tried to contact Chuck Missler on why he attend this conference but did not receive a reply from him. http://www.apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/quantum.htm
Chuck Missler of Koinonia House sponsored: The Malta Expedition - 2004, ‘Exclusive Archaeological Cruise Event’ .
Tourists sailed to the islands of Patmos, Malta and Crete with excursions to Ephesus and Athens, where they visited the Acropolis, Parthenon and Mars Hill. Two days were spent on the island of Malta, where the tour visited the Palace of the Grand Master of the Knights of Malta!
At Valetta the tour will also visit an ancient Tarxien temple. ‘Tarxien’ means ‘huge stone’ which describes those used for the numerous prehistoric temples on Malta. The World Monuments Fund is trying to help protect these temples. In Lady of the Beasts: The Goddess and Her Sacred Animals, Buffie Johnson informs that Malta was renown for its temples and monuments to the Mother Goddess
Rockwell International:
A multifaceted company that worked in the manufacturing arena for defense and space industries. Rockwell International are Freemason/Illuminati.
The building that was originally built for Rockwell International was designed in the shape of a Ziggurat; a stepped pyramid in the style of ancient Babylonia. However they did not occupy the building and it became the regional branch office of the federal government, housing some National Archives material and other miscellaneous government documents.
Ziggurat
An ancient Mesopotamian temple tower consisting of a lofty pyramidal structure built in successive stages with outside staircases and a shrine at the top. [1] Form of temple common to the Sumerians, Babylonians and Assyrians. [2]
SWANsat: The Super-Wide Area Network Satellite
“People Serving People”
SWANsat’s satellite services will begin in 2014.
The SWANsat Project will place a constellation of three high-powered satellites into operation: One spacecraft will serve Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and western Asia. One spacecraft will serve North, Central, and South America. One spacecraft will serve central and east Asia, Australia, New Zealand, and the central Pacific. When operated together, all three spacecraft will provide coverage of the entire globe, except for polar areas.” – www.swansat.com
Dr. Charles W. “Chuck” Missler is a special advisor to the SWANsat™ project. –www.swansat.com/about_us_cmissler.htm
Introducing the World’s First Inflation-Proof
Gold and Silver Standard Offered as Part of SWANsat’s
Modern Marshall Plan for the African Union
Learn how SWANsat™ can help stabilize the world’s economy through the proposed gold-backed Auric™ currency. — http://www.swansat.com/index.htm
African Union Gold Currency – AURic™
Dr. Welty is a founding member of the Global Settlement Foundation (GSF), a Geneva-based, independent, international non-profit organization that provides finality of settlement for global trade. The GSF System includes the GSF, duly appointed prime dealers, foundation members, lawful processes, and 
deliverable units. These trade in a cryptographically neutral marketplace. In the Global Standard™, one Global™ is defined as 0.1 gram of gold by mass deliverable as 0.999 or better fine gold, and includes retail delivery of 0.9999 pure gold 1 Kg bars marked 10,000 Globals, high value coins designed for circulation and low value coins and notes. All circulating physical Globals contain at least 70% of the face value amount of gold with the balance stored in the GSF vaults. Counterfeits are impossible without the gold content. GSF enables the physical and lawful processes that facilitate creation and movement of goods and services, including the necessary infrastructure to allow entrepreneurs and investors who use Globals to create and use a real-capital stock market that allows the pricing function in the marketplace to price risk. The genius of the west – lawful real-money stock markets – has now again returned to the service of mankind. — http://www.williamwelty.com/about_us.htm
In early June 2005 we began a feasibility study regarding formation of mySWANbank, a proposed banking service for SWANsat™ users. Our mySWANbank service will be operated in conjunction with SWANsat’s affiliated Banque de Commerce Internationale. – http://swansatfoundation.com/milestones.htm
—————- Other Resources: [1] www.merriam-webster.com [2] www.encyclopedia.com/html/z1/ziggurat.asp —————-
Thanks, I think your right. I do believe strongly that the “sons of God” were fallen angels and that the bible substantiates that the angels mated with human women. Other than that I don’t trust the guy either. Good article.
WOW! Praise the Lord you have Discernment on Chuck Missler! Right on, and you didn’t even go into the half of it! I’m passing this article along immediately. Got here via Twitter. I’m following you there my twitter name is @mijadedios I do know that there are some finally waking up to the fact that Chuck Missler is as you rightly claim, a ‘false teacher.’ Whether he set out that way in the beginning I don’t know for sure. I do know that he has been straying from the truth for some time and as of late has gone off the deep end. Fear not fellow brother/sister in Christ, there are some who are aware of it and are steering clear of his false teachings. As you know there are more with itching ears that desire to be tickled than it seems the contrary but we are out here! Keep doing the good work. God Bless!
@ mijadedios, yeah I’ve seen your name on twitter.
Thank you for your comment. You say I didn’t even go into half of it, what’s the other half? lol
Deborah, excellent research! When the Chuckster showed up with the Apostolic bunch in Idaho several years ago and I watched him disgrace the name of Christ livestreaming, I knew the wheels were coming off. He has always considered himself to be an intellectual. Years ago when my eyes started glazing over after listening to him for 5 minutes I assumed it was because his rhetoric was way over my head. Now I know it was the Holy Spirit tuning him out. He has enjoyed such popularity in many forums, a staple in Calvary Chapel conferences. I certainly hope that comes to a screeching halt along with Gayle “I Love Blasphemy – The Shack” Erwin. It is almost as if someone has sucked out their brain and replaced it with bubblewrap. Really not funny – tragic. But sometimes one has to maintain a sense of humor to be able to withstand the apostasy that just seems to deepen daily.
Keep up the good work!
I’m so glad you posted this article. People squirm only slightly when I start calling out the Brian McLaren’s and the Rob Bell’s, the Beth Moore’s and the Max Lucado’s, but when you start talking about the Chuck’s, or Heaven-forbid, Dave Hunt (who is becoming increasingly undiscerning to the point that I will no longer read his posts), people really start to get angry. Recently, I came across some interesting info that proved a strong connection between the “beloved” Tim LaHaye and Sun Myung Moon (the Moonies- unitarian universalists). I also traced LaHaye’s mysterious free-mason symbology artwork on his books. There were many (religious leaders) on this list that were connected to Moon- including Hal Lindsey. When I start sharing that info with people- there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Great comments. The deal is, is that Missler is serving TWO masters, one he pretends to serve, Christ, the other the God of this World who is spearheading the New World Order with his minions, the Illuminati. You see this up and down the Evangelical spectrum… when will people wake up and realize that all of popular Christianity is controlled by New World Order operatives, intelligence agencies, freemasons, dissociative Illuminati personalities and subversives.
After all, we should not be surprised… the Bible states that the Whole World is under the control of the Wicked One.
mom4truth
Thank you for your comment. The ministers I referred too, 1 of them specifically shcoked me. I am going to email this article to these ministers and hope and pray they think long and hard about what is going on.
I think there is a lot we don’t know, and when we find out will be shocked. When all this info starts to come out people are either going to listen to the Holy Spirit or side with the false spirit. I think we are living in a time where there is no longer time to sit back and take your time in deciding what’s Biblically sound and what is not. The gentle voice of the Holy Spirit is speaking loud and clear if fact He is speaking louder and louder because time is running out. It’s cut and dry decision making at the moment. You are either for Jesus Christ or you are not.
I am excited about the times we are living in because Jesus is coming back SOON; it’s scary times too because many many people who were sound have somehow tripped and fallen onto the wide path and boy did they only choose the wrong time to do so – because now they have minimal time to make up their minds and get back to Jesus Christ before it’s too late.
Burning Lamp
Thank you. When I work up with morning and came to check the comments I closed my eyes with my hand over my eyes with one finger to the side *like when watching a scary movie* expecting to have been blown to smithereens by air to surface missiles designed by Chuck Missler with his name printed on the side. lol
But then I see these comments and I am like jumping for joy. Thank you.
Of course I am still in my 2m cement thick bunker though with only my head sticking out prepared for possible strikes. But tis cool cos I’ll just stick my head back in. My bunker of course is Jesus who promised He would protect His children.
>> It is almost as if someone has sucked out their brain and replaced it with bubblewrap.
I keep saying the world has turned into a bunch of zombies. I honestly feel like I am living on another planet sometimes. Then again we are in this world but not off this world when we are born again. But more so in these times we are living in it’s become apparently clear that I am no longer of this world.
joe
>> when will people wake up and realize that all of popular Christianity is controlled by New World Order operatives
I have no idea, but I hope they wake up soon cos there is not much time left to sit and contemplate which side of the fence they want to be, in other words following strange teachings instead of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
What I have noticed is that people really do think that you can compromise and get away with it. Jesus said many will preach in HIS NAME and He will say, “I do not know you, depart from me”.
Deborah DTW
Great article. Well done!!. Thank you for your hard work. Yip, just goes to show. It is so so difficult to follow man’s teachings and trust upon it. We can only trust the Word of God, the Bible and watch and pray.
Blessings
Mom4truth wrote:
Dave Hunt (who is becoming increasingly undiscerning to the point that I will no longer read his posts),
Could you please cite examples? I have received Dave’s and T.A. McMahon’s newsletters and updates for many years. I usually pick up on anything offbase and I have not detected anything. Dave who is elderly and has been suffering physically still continues to be faithful to serve the Lord. If you know of something I would appreciate particulars. Otherwise, this can be construed as a false accusation. I am NOT one to idolize people no matter who they are, but Dave has always deserved respect for his courage in taking many unpopular stands. Ditto for his partner, T.A. Please clarify.
Burning Lamp
Can’t help you much on this one, will have to wait for mom4truth to tell us what she knows.
I emailed Dave Hunt and asked him if there are any concerns on their side with Chuck Missler. I was pointed to a November 2009 newsletter Q&A where some of Missler’s teachings were addressed.
Chuck and Nancy Missler book titled: Kingdom, Power, and Glory…
——————
From THE BEREAN CALL
http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8167
Question: Someone sent me a copy of a book by Chuck and Nancy Missler titled Kingdom, Power, and Glory: The Overcomer’s Handbook, and I found it rather troubling. I have a lot of respect for Chuck and his ministry, but this really threw me. Have you had an opportunity to review the book? I’d like to get another opinion to help me decide whether or not I’m understanding what the book is saying.
Response: We, too, have great respect for Chuck and consider him a good friend. Nevertheless, the book he co-authored with his wife, Nancy, has, in our view, serious doctrinal errors. The main thesis they present is that born-again believers fall into two categories: “overcomers” and “carnal Christians.” When both stand before Jesus at His judgment seat for rewards, those saved carnal Christians (whose lives have produced few, if any, good works) will be relegated to a place of outer darkness during the Millennium when overcoming Christians will rule and reign with Christ.
The Misslers claim support for their view by interpreting verses in Matthew 24 as applying to true believers though they be carnal Christians. Those verses declare that the lord of “that evil servant…shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (vv. 48-51). The authors interpret as metaphors the language describing the punishments listed by Jesus, thereby softening the consequences. Even so, one is still left with a purgatory-like condition for believers. How does a believer know he or she will not be cast into outer darkness, “in the darkened courtyard outside the light of the Holy Place” (Missler, p. 198), where “there is going to be much ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’”? The Misslers tell us “it is impossible for us to know who is carnal and who is spiritual. Only God knows the truth. We are not to judge! That’s God’s business at the Bema Seat.”
In truth, all of the verses that refer to “outer darkness” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth” are directed by Jesus at Jews who have, or will have, rejected Him, their Messiah. Applying any of the consequences to believers does serious harm to the gospel. At the very least, it implies punishment of sin for the believer, which he must suffer and somehow expiate during his time in outer darkness. Exactly how that’s to be accomplished we’re not told. At worst, like the purgatory of Roman Catholicism, the carnal Christian must pay for something that the blood of Christ did not cover.
In addition to the implications regarding the gospel, it grieves me deeply that the Misslers’ book may spread anxiety and fear among evangelicals, much like I had as a Roman Catholic. I knew I had punishments awaiting me, even if I made it to purgatory. Being delivered from that fear when I put my faith in the One who paid the full penalty for my sins, my heart joyfully rested in His words: “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:1-2). There are many, many other verses that clearly show that Jesus will never separate Himself nor cast the believer away from Himself. We have His blessed assurance.
A number of brothers and I have discussed our concerns personally with Chuck about Kingdom, Power, and Glory through conference calls and emails. To date, Chuck’s position is: “Nan and I believe it to be the most important work of our lifetime.”
Burning Lamp-
I would agree with you that Dave Hunt has a wonderful collection of articles and posts with regard to the emerging church/contemplative movement. I have long appreciated his stance. In fact, I still do receive his newsletter, although I engage it with much discernment because of a couple of things…A while ago I read an interview transcript between he and T.A. where he stated his concerns about Rick Warren after describing him as a true brother in Christ. That was the first time my radar went up, and I began to read with more discernment. I have noticed a frightening trend- not many discernment ministries have been willing to call Warren what he really is- a wolf in sheep’s clothing, save Eric Barger and a few others. I see more that call him “misguided”in his attempts but with “good intentions”. Wrong! Warren is a partner in the global apostate movement. His “intentions” are leading many to Hell. Bob Dewaay leads a great discernment ministry and he commonly wrote of Warren’s dangers, but after a closed-door meeting with Warren at Warren’s church (on Warren’s dime), he emerged claiming that while he and Warren disagreed on some issues, they agreed on the fundamentals of the faith. The contents of this meeting were never made public. A similar thing occurred with Chuck Smith at Costa Mesa, along with the other “emerging” partner, Greg Laurie, who referred to Warren as a fellow brother. It almost seems as of the false spirit leading Warren is quite charismatic and wooing-fooling even seemingly sound leaders.
I then noticed in the Q&A section of The Berean Call newsletter that Hunt was challenged on his promotion of A.W. Tozer. If you trace Tozer you will notice he quotes and promotes Catholic mystics and promotes a prayer practice that is eerily familiar to Lectio Devina. Dave Hunt was very defensive of this, saying, “TBC does not condone Tozer when he quotes those with whom we have serious theological disagreement (and with whom, we are sure, he would also disagree). Moreover, instances of such quotes are so few in his many, many volumes that it’s clear they were in no way significant to his teaching.” His defense of Tozer’s prayer practice I found too defensive to be coherent. In his “this isn’t a promotion of Christmas” Christmas newsletter (yes, Christmas is a pagan celebration), he offered up Tozer books to place around the little pagan tree.
The above posted article DTW regarding Missler struck me only after seeing his reluctance to necessarily call out or, better yet, call off a “brother” who is following in the footsteps of apostasy. I see so many brethren who are making the daily hard-call to get rid of books, videos, and teachings by those who are joining the apostate ranks to “come out from among them” but I see a reluctance on the part of many leaders to say, “While we consider(ed) them a brother at one time, their move into apostasy has regrettably forced us to resign our support of them.” Instead you will often hear, “We don’t agree with some of the things they’re saying, but all in all it’s probably fine.” It seems dangerous to me.
If those whom I look to to remain faithful in these dark days show a lack or even disregard of discernment, it puts me on heightened awareness about their words.
We cannot be so arrogant to think that those “we follow” will be safe forever. I have been so wounded to see so many I highly respected promoting mysticism, and have quickly learned that NO ONE is immune. May God give us the grace to see clearly in the dark.
mom4truth
I have to agree with you on all the things you said in your comment. I too read the Towzer newsletter. And anyone who says that Rick Warren is ok by any measuring stick is having a serious discernment problem. The man is so blatantly false. He oozes ecumenicism.
In my email to Dave Hunt I referred him to my article after he referred me to the above newsletter. I hope he has read mine as I explained to him that my article was about SWANsat and the EURic African Union Currency. Will wait and see what transpires.
A little leaven spoils the whole batch, so a little unity with people who are preaching false teaching spoils everything they stand for. As I said in my article above. There are other ministers whom I love and have relied on for sound biblical truth that are ‘good friends’ with Chuck Missler and after seeing their names, it has really confused me and hurt me. Hurt me more so that I do not want them to be deceived.
These ministers know who they are, and I really do pray that after reading this article they really think about who they are dealing with – they need to investigate further too and not just take my word for it. As it is Chuck Smith has been called on many things that are unsavoury regarding false teaching – this alone should be enough to raise the temperature for anyone thinking that Chuck Missler is ok.
Michael
I am sure you are still reading this blog. What do you have to say about this article?
Deborah
>>I emailed Dave Hunt and asked him if there are any concerns on their side with Chuck Missler. I was pointed to a November 2009 newsletter Q&A where some of Missler’s teachings were addressed.<<
Thanks for this info.
I didn’t realize until reading your article Chuck Smith’s connection to The Jesus People USA. I recently came across a blog post about their 2006 Cornerstone gathering that will give you chills. The fact that Smith was affiliated with this movement should stun us all…
http://www.lightingthewayworldwide.org/DaysoftheDead-Cornerstone.htm
mom4truth
yeessssss, I was going to write another article on that ‘The Jesus People’ but thanks for the info. Saved me time. Thank you.
I thought you would find that article chilling. Are you familiar with “Prophecy Expert” Dr. David Reagan of Lamb and Lion Ministries? I just got an interesting article from him and I think it’s time we keep our eye out:
http://www.mom4truth.com/an-open-letter-to-dr-david-reagan-of-lamb-and-lion-ministries/
I’ll let you know if I receive a response.
I believe that Dave Hunt has called out Rick Warren, emergent and mysticism, etc. On the Tozer issue, there are concerns, but Tozer has come out strongly for discernment. I am much more concerned about people who endorse C.S. Lewis and the Narnia movies. Let’s pray for Dave – he is elderly and slowly recovering from surgeries. T.A. has had some serious health challenges recently also.
I do believe that Dave will call out Missler when he is fully informed. Dave is gracious and gentle, but when he comes out he is direct. I certainly hope he does so with Missler.
Another one that seems to be made of Teflon is Gayle Erwin. He comes out with a ringing endorsement of The Shack and he is still a star attraction at Calvary Chapel conferences. Go figure. Another thing – why are some many reluctant to call out Chuck Smith and Greg Laurie for endorsing Rick Warren? The silence is deafening. It seems that political correctness has done a number on the Church. Rebukes don’t have to be harsh, but they should be respectful and gentle, but none at all is unacceptable. What people don’t realize is that it is the loving thing to do. One can only wonder what the dead guys like Moody, Ironside, J.R. Rice, etc. would say in regards to the condition of the Church today?
I agree that we are seeing more and more delusion amongst leadership in churches and ministries. This calls for more and more vigilance and there seems to be less and less of it. People don’t want to hear about negatives. Unity at any cost.
But the Lord predicted exactly what we are seeing today. We just have to remain faithful, contend earnestly for the faith and leave the results to God. There will always be someone who will listen. We must remember to pray for our pastors and leaders to be kept from deception and to warn their flocks.
Burning Lamp
Thank you for your answer. And you are so right. There are many ministers out there who have helped me (unbeknown to them) over the last few years in finding the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I want them to get back to the land of the living and realise that there are people out there who have truly been saved through their obedience to God and preaching the truth. And now starting compromise for the sake of what I do not know, is very very damaging.
>> Chuck Smith and Greg Laurie for endorsing Rick Warren
Absolutely. What is with all these well known pastors endorsing Rick Warren. You have John Piper who has Mark Driscoll on his team o’ youth-snatchers and Mark Driscoll was invited to share a stage with Rick warren – John Piper seemed cool with that.
>> I am much more concerned about people who endorse C.S. Lewis and the Narnia movies.
Totally. This has been something that I have found bewildering since I got saved. Before I was saved I knew of C.S. Lewis as being non Christian. When I get saved and I start studying the Bible and researching I find practically everyone quoting him as some kind of Christian hero. And I am like, ‘you got to be kidding?’. The exact same with JRR Tolkien. I can’t for one second understand how people can for one second think he was Christian. When I was unsaved Lord of the Rings was on the top 10 list of any atheists/occultists/unbelievers book list.
Yet, ask any Emergent ‘Christian’ type thinking person what falls into their top ten all time favourite books and Lord of the Rings will be there.
Great Christian pastors are under huge spiritual attack right now and I think it’s now become time where we the sheep need to come to the aid of our pastors and pray for them, speak to them – show them that because of the times we are in they will more so come under attack. The wolves slither up to them to befriend them under very very conniving pretences and that is to destroy their ministry and disillusion the people who do look up to them.
My husband and I went to visit friends yesterday and we spoke non stop for a record number of hours lol, and many many topics arose and one of them was about CONFUSION. Everyone is becoming so confused and the confusion that is being created by Satan is getting worse and worse by the day. It’s getting tough, really really tough, to keep your eyes wide open and not doze off for a 5 minute nap, cos during that time the most amazing things yet shocking things happen. In fact I think I am growing eyes in the back of my head LOL.
We are currently busy debunking your whole article about Chuck Missler and checking up on all the links and allegations you made…Quite serious ones – I might add…
To date, Michael Anthony has been one of the participants on this blog with the most Biblical balanced views and has truly put Biblical discernment towards each article written and published on this website. We find it rather alarming that on the topic which he warned you not to enter, you did not take heed and still published this extremely one sided article, which we found, is really a reflection of your own opinions, thoughts and interpretations of C Missler’s work -some of which it is clear you don’t understand and hence label as heresy.
Interesting that MA has seemingly decided not to continue contributing towards this blog – could it be because he has found, as have we, that you tend to disregard anyone’s opinion that doesn’t agree with you? Is that showing true discernment or is it exposing the fact that you have built your own dominion where what you say rules and where you won’t allow another’s sound opinion that might put you to error? It is every Christians responsibility to examine all things and then only make an informed decision or voice an intellectual opinion, but not before. This is extremely important if you are in a position where many Christians follow and read whatever you post. You cannot afford to publish own opinions or ideas.
On a personal note (which you can edit out if you would want to), we personally know MA and know that he is a true God fearing, God honouring and a gentleman. You, on the other hand, we’re not so sure of, seeing what you have done and how you’ve handled this current article as well as many others. He did offer to find out information directly from Calvary and Missler, before you published this article, as he knows the relevant people well. You chose to disregard this information from the source itself, ie Chuck Missler. You are only interested in publishing tabloid-like articles that will attract much of the same people as yourself – people not searching for the truth but for sensationalism.
Exposing error and heretics is correct. Beating the sheep on the other hand – be very aware of this. We will all give account of everything we did, regardless of our escatology. In this it creates humility, love, kindness, meekness and grace.
If you are interested in common sense, good discernment, non-tabloid like information, we can continue to discuss the Chuck Missler allegations.
I must let you know, and I’m speaking on behalf of many sound and good grounded South Africans Christians living abroad, that South Africa is riddled with heretics, false prophets, senstive seeking preachers, unlike any other ‘Christian’ country in the world. The problem here, is the people having difficulty to spot the sheep ie people and preachers.
This quote from A W Towzer made me realise that he knew that there are problems in the church and heeded warnings to us.
A REMINDER FROM A.W. TOZER ABOUT WRONG IDEAS ABOUT GOD
“Wrong ideas about God are not only the fountain from which the polluted waters of idolatry flow; they are themselves idolatrous. The idolater simply imagines things about God and acts as if they were true.
Perverted notions about God soon rot the religion in which they appear. The long career of Israel demonstrates this clearly enough, and the history of the Church confirms it. So necessary to the Church is a lofty concept of God that when that concept in any measure declines, the Church with her worship and her moral standards decline along with it. The first step down for any church is taken when it surrenders its high opinion of God…”
- A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy (HarperCollins: San Francisco), 1961, p. 4.
link for above.
http://www.spiritual-research-network.com/theshack.html
Andre/Michael/Whoever
I don’t give a hoot as to what you say. Bring more manly backup if you feel it necessary to take me down – but please do it gently, I bruise easily.
>> We find it rather alarming that on the topic which he warned you not to enter
I find it rather alarming that there has to be a WARNING for speaking the truth.
Btw, I take your words as being threatening.
Deborah
No don’t take it out of context….. What was meant in the context it was written was: When you beat the sheep ie: Chuck Missler do your home work properly!! You had the oppertunity to find out the answers to your accusations before you published the article
No one was threatened and no one is trying to take you down from your own built castle
Andre, please note:
Deborah said to Michael: I am sure you are still reading this blog. What do you have to say about this article?
I have no idea who Michael is, but if he chose not to respond that is not her fault. It seems that your remarks are insulting and condemning to a sister in Christ. You have no right to judge her heart or motives. If you wish to defend Chuck Missler, please do so. I for one do not consider this blog to be tabloidish and sensationalist. I am open to hearing what you have to say if it is truthful and nonslanted. Just be careful that you do not set up any man as an idol-there is a fine line between respect and idolization. No one is immune to deception. I think you would be hard put to defend Chuck’s fraternizing with the Apostolic Dominionist crowd. I hope I speak for others on this blog – we want to be fair and no one wishes to entertain false accusations. We are interested in truth. I assume that you share that desire and will share particulars with us as to where you believe the article is false.
Grace and peace to you.
Burning Lamp
Little bit of History. Michael Angelo used to comment on this site and was very pleasant. I then posted an article on the rapture here “The Rapture – An Article to Knock Your Socks Off “. During the conversation Michael mentioned Chuck Missler and I said that I am going to be honest and say that I don’t think he is as good as he makes out to be.
—————————
Michael Anthony
January 26th, 2010 at 10:15 pm
Edna,
Another Chuck Missler fan. And I thought I was the only one left.
—————————
Deborah (Discerning the World)
January 29th, 2010 at 10:35 am
Elmarie and Michael
Ok, I have to say this because you know well we are not here to lead people astray.
I have done a lot of research on Chuck Missler and he is not one bit ok. Just because someone teaches the rapture does not make then ‘Christian’. Just as someone can teach about Christ but does not make them Christian. Satan is not stupid. Michael you know that you look at the whole council of God before you make a conclusion that someone is really preaching the FULL gospel of Jesus Christ or not. You can’t just look at someone’s dispensation views and think they must be ok because they believe in a rapture.
I will post an article about this very very soon………
————————
Michael Anthony
January 29th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Debs,
I would not go down that route – I have listened to Chuck’s commentary on at least 12 books of the bible (that is the whole books) and have found not a single thing that I could say is suspect. If you are talking about the Y2K thing and the cosmic code thingymajik, the latter is highly misunderstood. The former; he has admitted to making mistakes and apologized.
I have read some of the common critiques of his teachings on the Internet, most of them are highly unbalanced and others just make up accusations. Either that or they don’t understand Chuck’s [very] indepth approach to bible teaching. Chuck teaching style is not everybody’s cup of tea.
On this one we highly disagree, unless you can come up with something explosive. For far I have not see any radioactive signs on his teachings.
—————————
Deborah (Discerning the World)
January 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am
Michael
I will go down this route. Because I am not going to critique the Y2K thing or his fascination with occult teaching and UFOS. No. It’s far worse than that. And yes we all make mistakes and we repent and then we change our ways.
You don’t have to agree with me, just let me write the article and then you can take it from there. It’s going to take me while to get too, probably have it up by Sunday evening or Monday. I am going on holiday so will be ‘missing in action’ again for periods of time.
In the mean time just relax like you are at the beach too ahha.
—————————-
I then left to go on holiday to the coast for 2 weeks. during the time I took all my latests findings and wrote the article offline. Before I published the article however things wents way off when Michael suddenly sided with Emergents ‘thinkers’ from another website. This website (PPP)wrote an article about my site based on an article that Michael wrote that I posted on my website for Michael here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/01/02/heresy-hunters-apologists-and-humourless-satirists Anyhow, near the end of the comments, Michael pops up and says I am an accuser of the brethren for an article I wrote on Rick Warren here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/01/04/rick-warren-gets-2-4m-in-donations Rick Warren a brethren? I think not. You can read the entire change in Michael’s attitude in the comments section of the “heresy hunters apologists….” article link above. Anyhowwww… and then my blog as per Michael just became trashy and stuff and the Emergents were more articulate and intellectual and he found more common ground with them.
Michael had already jumped ship into emergent seas before I even got around to posting the article on Chuck Missler.
So after posting this article I commented and asked Michael to give his thoughts cos he said he was open to hearing out what I had to say (see comments above) Instead ‘Andre’ appears to speak on Michaels ‘behalf’ and gives a raving review on Michael’s intelligence and Christian gentleman nature and in the process insults me (this is not the first time he has used that kinda wording as I mentioned above) and threatens me. And I really do see that comment as threatening and so have a few others who have emailed me quite concerned.
‘Andre’ wants to debunk my information. Well he must go ahead. The problem is, this information comes directly from Chuck Misslers website SWANsat where Chuck Missler put his curriculum vitae up for all to see. His same CV info is on the aliens website too which is Chucks website. The information I have quoted (which is supposed to be tabloidish) are actually Chuck Misslers words.
Another thing is if Chuck Missler has apologised for the Cosmic Code thing, WHY does he still promote the Bible Code and sell his cosmis code books? Why is he still hanging with Hal Lindsey, why has Dave Hunt already spoken with Missler re his latest book about being completely wrong in many many ways (http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8167).
I thought when you repented of something the idea was to stop doing it. So repenting and then carrying on doing the same thing is not an apology or genuine repentance.
And the reason I mentioned the Y2K thing was not really about the prophecy being false per se (because Chuck did apologised for this), it was more the fact that why would someone so clued up in computers say something so rediculous – I was approaching his Y2K thing from another angle. The main focus of this article is SWANsat and the AURic currency. Chuck Missler is a very intelligent, in fact a brilliant man but he is not one bit kosher.
Andre or is that Michael
The answers are clear to see on SWANsat and the establishment of the EURic currency. And you are very threatening Michael. And by the hatred that exudes from your comments it’s clear that there is something really sinister going on.
I have nothing more to say to you.
André
Now I am alarmed! What is going to happen to DTW?
Now I am confused. DWT is berated for publishing her opinion, but others are allowed to have opinions?
Now I am offended.
André, you say you speak “on behalf of many sound and good grounded South Africans Christians living abroad” and that the “problem here, is the people having difficulty to spot the sheep ie people and preachers”. No, that is not the problem. Oh, wait. You only spotted one sheep among us and presumably dismissed the rest of us as sensation seekers not interested in the truth.
Do you speak emergent?
Deborah,
I decided to check back and see how the comments were going! I too have experienced personal attacks for ‘warning’ others on an article I wrote. No worries there will always be those who feel they have to defend ‘men’ and are unwilling to see the deception that is right in front of their eyes. There will be those who having itching ears desire and heap on for themselves teachers…you know the verse. Anyway. Don’t even give ppl like that response time. I mean there are those who venture only to pull you out far enough to attack. There are some who have honest questions or need reproof but then there are swine we should keep our pearls from if ya know what I mean! Blessings to you and I’ll keep checking this blog. I sometimes don’t update mine as often because of dealing with stuff like this! lol. oh well, it’s a small price to pay for such a great and awesome gift!
Hi Deborah (PLEASE DON’T PRINT)
I just want to say that i think you do a great job at DTW. I only disagreed on the Chuck Missler story and truly believe he is a sheep. Sorry for how this has become! I don’t often(if ever) go on blogs etc and i guess this proved that i shouldn’t
I might not be as polished,tacktfull or experienced in bringing myself over on text and the feeling being brought over is not what i really intend for
There is nothing sinister and i’m not M.A only a friend. My name is as my email says: Andre Steyn, i live in Australia en ek is n afrikaanse boer seun.
I honestly don’t know if M.A still reads your blog and sincierly regret dragging his name into what i have created. If i can humbly ask you to please delete all my mail that i mentioned his name. I would hate for him to see this
I will stay off this site to prevent another mistake
Take care and God bless you!!!!!!!
[EDITED: I have edited your private details out of this comment]
mijadedios
That’s exactly the problem. This keeps me from updating my blog. I have had so many people tell me this before and do I listen? Nooope. Thank you for your encouragement.
Andre
Thank you for you comment. I am going to post your comment. I have edited your personal details out from your comment.
A few things here:
1) You should know that Michael is not his real name, so deleting all your comments mentioning Michael’s name is pointless. Or is Michael his real name. Who knows. I don’t care to be honest.
2) You have been conversing with Michael about my blog for a long time otherwise you would not have known to come here so quickly.
3) Michael was already commenting in the plural when he said “On this one we highly disagree” so he knows you have commented.
4) No one can see your email address and I surely have no intention of emailing you or your friend for that matter.
5) How did you know that Michael requested I forward my info to him first and told me not to post the information either way. You said, “He did offer to find out information directly from Calvary and Missler, before you published this article, as he knows the relevant people well.”
6) Andre, you lie like a cheap watch.
7) In case you need to know the address of the Satellite company again, it’s called SWANsat and the African Union currency is called the AURic currency. You should see that the Zimbabwe coin looks like. I wonder what the South African one looks like. Anyhow it’s spelt S W A N S A T and A U R I C. And as much as you refuse to acknowledge this exists you can always just go to http://www.swansat.com. And you can get there by going to google and in the address type http://www.swansat.com. And if you have trouble doing that, type Charles Missler into google and then Swansat comes up within the top 10 on google on the front page. There is also a monthly magazine about swansat explaining everything.
8) The end.
Deborah,
The “we” mentioned in my first email [edited: you mean comment] was me and my friend Michelle. Michelle also has commented on your blog before. We both live in Australia.
[EDITED: The we I mentioned was not where you said 'we' but where Michael said in his comment, "On this one we highly disagree, unless you can come up with something explosive. For far I have not see any radioactive signs on his teachings." - read properly before you make any more mistakes]
Hmmmm my 2c worth.
One thing is very clear to me. DTW is not taking on CM on a personal basis, she is simply giving us a clear warning, to heed, to the cracks found in his teachings. The cracks are clear to me. It is obvious those who choose to follow CM teachings cannot say one day we did not know!! We are all just mere humans and we all can fall.
I can say for one i was not even aware of the cracks unitl this posting. Dtw thank you for doing what you are doing only out of LOVE for your fellow Christians and those still seeking Jesus.
Do people even realize how hard it must be for DTW to keep a Biblical balance on the articles posted. True discernment is not about attacking anybody in person. It’s purely to take note off the warnings.
DTW I thank you for your LOVE IN JESUS.
Deborah,
The reason i asked you not to print my msg is because this is a public blog and i know that. But we are also individuals and more importantly we are christians and sometimes to show mercy and grace we have to make it personal. Making it public would be self rightous and that’s my reason for saying “don’t print”
For what bennifit is it if we sit with a wealth of knowledge and yet we can’t even show each other grace. I’m sure you understand this but to emphasise it more maybe listen to a few Paul Washer sermons and you’ll perfectly know what i mean
I gave my personal details just to show i’m not M.A…..not for any other reasons
I know that is not his real name. But it does not matter.My apology was sent not for the people but for you and him.It doesn’t matter to me what people think but the people involved. I unknowing to him have dragged him into this and i just needed to clarify that. I don’t know if you have true friends but if you do you would know what i mean.We(me and M.A.) have spoken about this blog before but not much was said as this really isn’t important
“i lie like a cheap watch” ….. God bless you!
Remember: For a woman to be in leadership is like for a man to be rich…. a double portion of flesh to fight off….. I know you probably know this but it’s good to emphasise it again so we know where the enemy will attack. I praise the Lord for woman in those positions but it comes with great responsibility!
Andre
Andre
Making your apology public would be self-righteous? bbwahhahaa. LOL. Pull another one. You should have thought about all of this before insulting me, trashing my blog, threatening me, and lying. And Michael has no need to be angry with you because he has already said the same things about me and this blog that you have said in your first comment. If Michael gets angry with you that would just be so non-Christian-like. You both speak from the same spirit. As for the rest of your comment….well… I say no more. From now on I will delete all your comments.
Sjoe, some heated comments going around here and some sort of division between old friends…always sad.
Debs, I wish I had the right scriptures to back you in your battles but alas (as you know), I am still a new reborn Christian only beginning to read and understand the Word of my Lord and Savior. For me its clear as daylight when reading your article about Chuck Missler so I will not buy his books or follow his teachings, period. I do not need a Chuck Missler to find salvation.
I might be very wrong on this and if I am please tell me so. But I honestly try to listen to the words of Jesus. One passage I looked up…
Matthew 11:25-30
I need to get to my point… I believe that we as humans try to understand and explain God’s Word with human Wisdom. Everyone has a new revelation, a new take on the Word. Jesus tells us to learn from Him and that is what I am going to do. Honestly if someone like Chuck Missler end up being genuine and not false it does not matter. For I will not be judged on whose human teaching I followed on earth.
Anyhow, Debs, for me as a baby Christian, I thank you for your website. See there is allot of intellectual and expert Bible theologians here on the web. I cannot compete in knowledge with them, but sites like yours help me to watch out, stand strong and ignore potential false messages. So thank you. God bless and know that even though some might “hate” you for what you are doing, know there is others out here that support you, love you in Christ, pray for you and stand with you.
God Bless
Pieter
It seems that you have quite a bit of negativity surrounding your articles Debz. I on the other hand completely commend you on your hard work and sacrifice it must take to do such intensive research.
I pray that peoples eyes will be opened by what you write. Just a pity that even Jesus Himself said that even the “elect would be deceived”.
Carry on Debz.
I HAVE A QUESTION. IF ALL THESE MEN AND CHURCHES AND PEOPLE ARE WRONG WHO IS RIGHT.
I need fellowship so much. I am starving for it. Who can I trust to teach me the word.
Yes, I read my bible but its fellowship I desire. HELP ME PLEASE BEFORE I GO CRAZY.
”
Could THIS be the exact reason why you didn’t want DTW to post your comment? now I assume André would apply the good lesson to “learn” from his mistakes? (of which the bigger one is to cover up…)
Very interesting: when this DVD about the planets came out first, me and my dad watched it together. My dad left the room (angry) about a quarter into screening – why? he said “this man is promoting the creation and not the Creator.” I did not see it from that point of view, but after finishing the DVD I felt “incomplete” (though it DID end with the cross in the sky!). what remained in my thoughts afterwards was the sounds that the planets (& stars) make and not thoughts about God. (well, that was just my observance, in my simple plain words).
Pieter
Thank you and don’t worry you will be upto scratch in no time. God has given us the internet with so much info available – the problem is decifering what is true and what it false. But when born again the Holy Spirit quickly shows you which is true and He will lead you.
louise
You are going to have to 1) come to the realisation that this is going to be impossible in these times because all churches are corrupt. 2) I believe God has given us the internet for a reason. 3) Who are you to trust to teach you the word? The Holy Spirit of course and your desire to do your own study.
Andre
Stop spamming my blog. It immediately falls into my spam section and is deleted automatically. And using a different username and email address is not going to solve your problem(s).
Gerard Willemse: a friendly word – her name is Debs, with an “s” nor a “z”. Jesus removed the lightning flash when He saved her! …… just wanted to say….
cecilia
Louise
The one who will preach the Law straight and hard to convict you of your sin. The one who will send you home with the sweetness of the Gospel, not a to-do list. The one who will preach about the Christ, who lived a perfect life for you, and not about the Christian who should try really, really hard not to mess up the ‘second chance’. Read Todd Wilken’s “The Listener’s Guide to the Pulpit.” [DTW, could you help me out with the link, please?]
Feed on good sermons available on the Internet. Gobble it up, even. Try Faith Lutheran Church and Holy Trinity Lutheran Church.
Louise, I know what you are saying. Pray and do not compromise. Keep your eyes and ears open, but know that you will make far more enemies that friends. Don’t waste time trying DR churches. Seek out only the best. Be prepared to go it alone if that is what you are called to do. Don’t go crazy. What is happening is what we have been warned about in the Bible.
C
LOL – lightening flash, where do you come up with this stuff. That was funny.
Gerard, you can keep the z – lookz cool haha
[EDITED: Sorry C I have no idea what I did here, but I went into to edited your urls and I deleted the whole lot and saved by accident. It had a link to "a listeners guide to the pulpit" pdf and another was to sermon index. I have the 'listeners guide to the pulpit' article on my site, the other url I dunno what that was...sorry]
it’s fine D! I for one, am one of those people who belief that God is in control; so if He didn’t want my comment to be here, that’s it. it will be in your article anyways! keep standing then!
C
Ag nee, what I wanted was for you to go and find the url of the sermon index you posted and re post it. I didn’t really explain that did I. Sorry. So if you can remember what it was please post it again.
Louise…
Where do you live ? Only give your Province for now.
I do know of a few fellowships around the country where they teach TRUTH and try to live the Word.
Deborah…
Have you considered to maybe have a small section somewhere on your blog where we can “submit” fellowships or other ministries that we believe is kosher, on the condition that they should be willing to be submitted to some “checking-out” if required. (a checklist maybe..)
I do believe there are more people like Louise who is searching for TRUE teaching and fellowship.
Hi Cecilia
a friendly word – brother to sister
This blog is not the Bible and we as commentators and contributors are not the Apostles writing the perfect Word of God. We are just Children of God following the Spirit of God and we can and may make mistakes. God allows for that.
Ps 103:13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;
Ps 103:14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
Awesome scripture hey ?
Now,if Spirit of God lays something on your heart and your first effort gets thwarted do you stop ? Aren’t we suppose to persevere until we overcome or until God tells us not to pursue this further?
You DID post those URL’s because you believed that we or someone on the blog might need them. Amen?
Come on then, stand your ground and deliver the “goods” … someone on this blog needs them!
You commented:
>> I for one, am one of those people who belief that God is in control; so if He didn’t want my comment to be here, that’s it. <<
Did God tell you NOT to put those URLs again?
I agree that God is in control BUT you still have a will and a responsibility towards God to use it under the guidance of His Spirit. We must not be like jellyfish and not pursue that we believe God wants us to do just because we failed or got "tripped-up" on the first attempt.
Lets not be taken for a ride or get "tripped-up" by a "mischievous" finger on a "naughty non-compliant" mouse in the hands of a confused -I have no idea what I did here- lady with a "block"…oops! I mean blog! ;-)
I, myself also had this "way of thought" until God showed me the root of it – Calvinism.
Yep, that's where I got "infected" with this faulty way of thinking. It stems from the Calvinist doctrine of predestination that says: "What will be will be and I can do nothing about it".
By the way, the Muslims also has this way of thought. It is called: Insha'Allah. They also have made this into a law that they must obey.
I have an very interesting Video by Jacob Prasch that compares Calvinism to the Muslim faith and the similarities are quote something…
Cellia, I value your comments and I enjoy the way you "play" with some of the "naughty" commentators here.
Keep it up !
Blessings
Jean
>> Lets not be taken for a ride or get “tripped-up” by a “mischievous” finger on a “naughty non-compliant” mouse in the hands of a confused -I have no idea what I did here- lady with a “block”…oops! I mean blog! ;-)
You know, you almost sound like I actually ‘feel’ right now. Poep tired, exhausted and a nervous wreck.
I can do that. I’ll open a post for it tomorrow call it, “looking for genuine Christian fellowship?”
Deborah
>>You know, you almost sound like I actually ‘feel’ right now. Poep tired, exhausted and a nervous wreck.<<
I can understand the "Poep tired" and the "exhausted" part BUT I don't see you lying under the sea on the the seabed shivering and shaking . . . THAT'S a nervous wreck ! :-)
You have nothing top be nervous about ! BUT I bet you this guy does…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2tSlXq2wz4&feature=player_embedded
Look at this video and you will see him acting VERY cool to some investigating questions…
BUT just picture him before GOD one day . . .
NOW THAT WILL BE A DISPLAY OF A NERVOUS WRECK !!!!!!
ouch! no Jean: fact – I did not save my comment (my mistake!); and because of THAT and that alone, I put that answer do Deborah. actually, I can be very stubborn sometimes… but this time, after been in bed with flue 4 a week, I am exhausted and knew that Deborah is gonna put the article and will have at least one link. but here’s the other link:
http://www.christsiouxfalls.org/media/Wilken%20-%20A%20Listener%27s%20Guide%20to%20the%20Pulpit%20with%20Bible%20refs.pdf
and then:
http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/01/04/a-listeners-guide-to-the-pulpit/
I had a problem though: and did post a question on the 2nd blog: wanted to know what translation they’ve been using.
Maybe Jean can help (or help find out?)
Oh, just received answer back!
Hello Cecilia, thanks for stopping by.
I checked a few of the passages and they all seem to be the English Standard Version (ESV). Concordia Publishing House do a superb ESV-based study bible, called the Lutheran Study Bible:
http://cph.org/t-tlsb.aspx
end of comment answer quote.
Oh Jean…. I don’t play…. might do some “talk around the bush” like they do… but I don’t play… even if it’s just because it’s one of the New once’s favorite pastimes and a word they frequently use when they toy toy with DTW’s articles and comments!
you actually gave me a good “chuckle”… lol
I tend to agree that Missler is starting to lose his wheels; calling him out as a heretic and liar is a bit far, through, IMHO. Second, I think it’s quite funny that you use Dave Hunt’s dislike of Missler’s latest book as a reason against Missler, and yet you would agree with Missler’s book that we are saved by grace alone, and not by works. If you’re saved by grace alone, then you’re saved by grace alone. You don’t get it by works, you don’t keep it by works, and you don’t prove it by works. Any of these three are simply putting works into the game through the front door or the back door.
I’ve not read Dr. Missler’s book, but I’ve read many others in this area, and find the pure Calvinist position logically contradictory and untenable. So, I’m not so quick to judge anyone on the basis of soteriology any longer. In fact, one of the first things I’ve learned in Seminary is that few people have a readily classifiable view, and it’s probably not the wisest thing in the world to jump down someone’s throat on this score, or to call them a heretic on this front. It’s best to listen, learn, and disagree quietly and with dignity, rather than with screaming and much affront.
I think Dr. Missler is just getting a bit older, watching his ministry decline from its heights, and pulling in people he probably shouldn’t be pulling in to try and build it back up. Mylon Lefevre did the same thing, and Billy Graham, and many others, I think. He’s getting bad advice, I’m afraid, at this point. So, warning taken, but don’t toss out the watermelon with the seeds, or there won’t be anything good left to eat in the entire world.
Russ
Russ
>> calling him out as a heretic and liar is a bit far
Where did I call him an heretic or a liar? Good grief. I said he was not good, I also said that he is not kosher. But then again, the more I research the more I am beginning to wonder what we should class him under. Using Bible Code divination? You tell me what the Bible has to say about this.
>> I think it’s quite funny that you use Dave Hunt’s dislike of Missler’s latest book as a reason against Missler
I think it’s quite funny too, because I did not use Dave Hunt as a reason. – and if you READ all the comments properly – it’s clear that Dave Hunt in no way dislikes Missler. You are making stuff up here. The reason I used his name was because others asked me if Dave Hunt had said anything, which he has and I posted the newsletter.
>> and yet you would agree with Missler’s book that we are saved by grace alone, and not by works. If you’re saved by grace alone, then you’re saved by grace alone. You don’t get it by works, you don’t keep it by works, and you don’t prove it by works. Any of these three are simply putting works into the game through the front door or the back door.
I wont agree with Misslers book. Yes I agree that we are saved by grace alone. Basically you are saying that because Chuck is saved by grace alone that he can now go out and disobey the Holy Spirit in his life and lead people astray? Once saved always saved only counts when one was genuinely saved in the first place.
>> it’s probably not the wisest thing in the world to jump down someone’s throat on this score, or to call them a heretic on this front. It’s best to listen, learn, and disagree quietly and with dignity, rather than with screaming and much affront.
Screaming? I never scream, maybe make like little shrills but that’s it. lol. Amazing what you get taught at seminary – to just keep quiet at all costs. Second it is every born again believes task to test and warn others. If one doesn’t feel the necessity to do this then where is the love for ones brothers and sisters in Jesus who’s souls are hanging in the balance because of this man. Do you not understand that we are actually talking about peoples lives here when someone ministers falsely? Do you not understand that there is the HOLY SPIRIT who councils ALL born again Christians and keeps us on the right track – If Chuck is doing the opposite to the Word of God, then where is the Holy Spirit in His life?
>> I think Dr. Missler is just getting a bit older,
The Holy Spirit is the ONLY ONE, He is Jesus Christ, He is God that WILL keep you on the straight and narrow so to say he’s getting older does not quite cut it. There is not an expirary age limit attached to being faithful to Jesus Christ.
>>watching his ministry decline from its heights, and pulling in people he probably shouldn’t’t be pulling in to try and build it back up.
Well if that is the case, which I do not think it is, that’s a lovely reason for carrying on deceiving people, instead of stopping – getting back in line with God’s Word. What should be more important, 1) making sure you preached the Truth with nothing added or taken away or 2) allowing in wolves to get the business up and running again. Hmmm
>> but don’t toss out the watermelon with the seeds, or there won’t be anything good left to eat in the entire world.
And I will toss out an entire LOAF because of a smidgen of leaven. The Word of God is the BREAD of Life. What on earth do you want to eat of in this world?
“Once saved always saved only counts when one was genuinely saved in the first place.”
And which of your works of vitriol and self-righteous anger prove you were saved in the first place? Thank God I don’t eat that deadly spiritual diet every day. If you can only prove you were “saved in the first place” through your works, then no-one is saved.
Of course, I’m certain you’ll anything I say and twist it completely, as you’ve done above. Twisting people’s words is a hard habit to break, isn’t it?
Russ
Russ
Gee talk about twisting my words. What a nasty reply that was. I know who is speaking through you and it’s not Jesus Christ. You speak with a forked tongue.
If you think that being TRUTHFULL and ABIDING IN THE WORD OF GOD and FOLLOWING THE GOSPLE OF JESUS CHRIST and REPENTANCE OF SIN is a GOOD WORK then…
Matthew 16:23
23 But He [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Matthew 4:10
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”
Being saved by GRACE includes OBEYING THE WORD OF GOD, REPENTANCE OF SIN, LIVING A HOLY LIFE THROUGH THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT FOLLOWING EVIL WICKED TEACHINGS, ABIDING IN ALL THINGS THAT ARE GOOD AND RUNNING AWAY FROM ALL THINGS THAT ARE EVIL.
Now I’m Satan himself? You really do like to call people names, don’t you? Now I know why I got out of the heresy hunting business years ago. It was eating me up inside, making me mad all the time, looking at people searching for that one little thing that would prove how wrong they are, looking for any reason at all to tear them down, to destroy, to rip someone apart. Guilt by association, guilt by the slip of a tongue, whatever–I was always seeking out some reason to condemn, to find that one piece of “fruit” that didn’t fit, and proved, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that someone “wasn’t really a Christian.”
Come out of it. Your constant anger isn’t making you any healthier; you’ll just end up hating yourself before it’s over with. And if you’re going to post my comments, post the whole thing, not the part that you think makes you look good.
(Not that it matters, I won’t be back to read your blog after you’ve stooped to calling me Satanic.)
Russ
Russ
I never said you were Satan, I said the spirit speaking through you is not of Jesus . You can insult me, but I cant quote biblical scripture to get you to stop insulting me. Well you said you won’t come back to read this blog, and that’s because the Word of God cuts like a double edged sword.
Have you come before Jesus and asked Him to forgive you of all your sins; you have done, thought and said, and have you turned away from them? – as Jesus commanded you to do in His Word with the help, council and guidance of the Holy Spirit that abides in you when you are truly saved.
Do you have conviction of the sin in your life? If not, then you need Jesus Christ in you life. You follow after men like Chuck Missler and make idols of these people, you make him out to be a god. If you are genuinely saved you will know that what I am saying now is Biblical and you will want to come before Jesus Christ and humbly ask for forgiveness.
You can insult me and call me names and pick and choose your words to suit your own version of what you want the gospel of Jesus Christ to be but you can’t no matter how you try, change what God expects of you as His Child. A obedient child obeys their Father and when they do wrong they say sorry and He forgives His child immediately.
I am not angry, you are the angry one, and being shown the truth but refusing to believe in the truth is what eats you up inside. The conviction in your life by the Holy Spirit speaking to you is what is bothering you. and cutting you up. You know Russ, you know fully well which side you are taking or chosen… and you know what, you still have the choice to listen to the Holy Spirit speaking to you or you can carry on and ignore Him. Will you listen to Him? Will you ignore Him? Will you listen to Him? Will you ignore Him? It’s alllllll upto you.
I don’t want an apology from you, but I would love you to go to Jesus and ask for forgives for everything in your life that opposes Him. You are either for Jesus are against Him.
You know your heart Russ. You know…
Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
I think it’s about time I post this email I sent to lighthousetrails. I have no idea if this email was forwarded on. I hope it was.
This article has really caused a problem for a lot of people. Unfortunately the truth does hurt, even me. I am not immune to the shocks I face on a daily basis of things I believed to be true and turned out to be false. But you know what? I come before Jesus DAILY, my Lord and Saviour and I say I am sorry and I change my ways and stop following lies.
If people don’t want to accept the truth then do not make your problems mine. This article and everything on my blog is for those WHO WANT TO FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST TO THE LETTER OF HIS WORD. This blog is not for people who could not care about the truth.
Insult me if you will, I don’t care. But I will carry on warning for people’s souls are hanging in the balance here. Time is running out – soon people are going to be screaming and shouting out of sheer horror of what is going to take place in this ‘LOVING’ world our ours, cursing, because they think no one warned them. Yet Jesus spoke to you daily and warned you to change your ways and YOU REFUSED, YOU by your OWN FREE WILL CHOSE to IGNORE HIM.
Email sent to lighthousetrails.com:
On 22 February 2010 00:08
—————
Hi David,
I am writing to you with love and for the sake of genuine Christians looking after one another. I am hoping you can forward this email onto everyone at lighthouse trails. And if they can forward it onto other genuine Christians so they can be warned.
I wrote this article Dr. Chuck Missler, SWANsat and the Auric™ Currency a few days ago and while doing my research I came across a name or 2 of pastors who I have looked up to because of their obedience to God hence their preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ. But was shocked to find their names associated with Missler. Can I tell you that I cried? Yip, I cried.
Please can I ask that you urgently review what I have written and prayerfully seek God regarding the issue. I am now even starting to get threats on my blog and 2 threats via email because of my article.
But I will not back down because I stand for Jesus Christ. We are living in terrible times where great ministers are falling on the way side by finding common ground with false teachers.
I think of all the articles I have researched to write non have hurt me more than this one, because of pastors that I love are associating with someone that promotes the Bible Code and now SWANsat and African Union Auric currency.
I just want pastors who are sincere to not be fooled by Missler. We are all fooled by people, everyone, but the Holy Spirit will warn us, but then it’s left up to you to decided what to do. There are so few great men to listen too, we have to keep our pastors safe.
Please, please, please keep your life on the straight and narrow for Jesus Christ. Time is running out.
I have already emailed Dave Hunt from BereanCall my article.
Thanks
Deborah
————–
And do I still cry? Yes! I find this to be the saddest article I have ever written because I know how many people are not going to listen to the truth and the PROOF I have given regarding Chuck Missler. Men are more important than Jesus Christ.
Jesus warns us that choosing our earthly family over Him will be disastrous, how much more so will He tell you to depart from Him for siding with a man that is not even your biological flesh and blood.
Matthew 10:32-33 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 10:34-39 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.”
Luke 12:49-53 “49 I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism* to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father* against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.”
Romans 1:20-21: “Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.”
John 1:10-13 “He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. He came to his own home, and his own people received him not. But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God.”
The LOVE that is spoken of today is the LOVE of the World NOT love for Jesus Christ the SON OF GOD who is the one you should be bowing before not Chuck Missler.
Regarding Guilt by Association: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/02/14/do-not-let-him-into-your-home/ It’s very simple to overcome.
Russ
I see the church you pastor does not believe in repentance of sin as an ongoing part of ones relationship with Jesus Christ: http://www.victoryinchristcommunitychurch.org. You are Emergent.
Deb-
My heart breaks as I read your words with absolute shared emotion. My eyes are filled with tears to know that you, along with so many, including myself, have been so viciously attacked for daring to speak out in this darkened world. I added a link to a blog I posted about David Reagan and his using a mystic to illustrate his advice toward subjective leading a few comments up, and I have since been treated so poorly by his Gargoyle gate-keepers. It encouraged me to read what mijadedios said above about not throwing our pearls before swine. And, as good and Holy as it feels to be the righteous voice, according to Scripture, sometimes their hateful rhetoric stings. That is why I feel so blessed to have found this blog- it encourages me in the fight. My husband giggles when he reads our dialogue because he says you are my SA counter-part. Thank you for your continued strength.
I see that you sent a letter to lighthouse trails. I look forward to seeing their response. I have emailed them with my concerns, specifically, with the above mentioned issues with Dave Hunt and they never replied. I used to dialogue with them regularly through email/phone, but I don’t receive responses anymore. I also emailed them because I took issue with a post Roger Oakland had on Christmas. He dismissed the fact that Christmas is pagan simply by saying, “Is it possible to become so pure and righteous in this world that one can no longer live in this world?…If you take the position you are going to set all things right, you will be considered right off. Unbelievers will think you have lost your mind.” He ends by saying, “Don’t stop celebrating Christmas to make yourself more righteous than others. If you do, forget about telling your lost neighbor about Jesus Christ the rest of the year.” So, now my Christian witness is comromised if I DON’T celebrate a Roman Catholic/Pagan holiday? Tell me where I can find that in the Bible. I DON’T THINK SO! And, yet again, I can’t get a response from them.
With your contributer ‘Russ’- I laugh, albeit sadly. When he mentioned something about being in seminary, I knew immediately he was emergent. A person is pure UNTIL these lovely seminaries get their apostate claws into people. People love to tout that they come from a seminary to lend themselves credibility, as if they are more grounded in Truth because they paid someone to explain the Bible to them, but I pretty much run the other direction when someone starts blabbing about their seminary credentials.
mom4truth
Thank you. I wrote that earlier this morning and had to take the rest of the day off just to pray and thank Jesus for everything He has done for me and will continue to do for me as He promised in His Word. There is nothing greater than the comfort of the Holy Spirit in onces life, knowing Jesus is with you every moment of every day and that we can enter the presence of our heavenly Father, the most glorious place anyone would ever want to be and kneel before Him in utter most reverence and worship.
I was stuck in traffic today on my way back home and I just sobbed, thinking of this article and 1 person in sepecific. The thought broke my heart that he might be persuaded at the moment, but I pray he sees what is going on. He is one tough puppy and I know he will realise what’s happened.
You know, I can understand if no one knew about Chuck Misslers satellite escapades but knowing he believes the Bible Code and the UFO stuff is something I am just really struggling to comprehend in my mind how anyone could miss that? How does Chuck get it right that he can convince even great ministers that what ‘he’ knows is true and biblical? Apparently he is pretty good at it. So 10/10 for Chuck on that one.
I dunno. I am going to have to take my focus off this and place it onto – ah that’s a surprise for tomorrow. Got a fantastic email with some fantastical’ false teaching.
Oh wait it is tomorrow. It’s now 02:20am in the morning… Ok, I shall depart, tomorrow is another long day.
Thanks again mom4truth, official USA-counter part.
When Africa becomes the “United States of Africa”, then I can officially say that we both live in the USA. I’ll send you my only Auric gold coin when they are minted. I say my only ‘one’ cos by then Africa will be in the same situation Greece is sitting in now. Having created mass debt that Africa will never be able to repay, EU will take over because Africa is just not pulling it’s weight. My little gold coin will be under my pillow, so I will post it to you for safe keeping. Oh hold on, I will need to pay for the postage with my gold coin. Hmmmm. Scrap that thought. lol
Ok, it’s 6:30am, sleep is not on my side today and I have just seen that http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/links.htm has linked me as an international site on theirs. Oh here I go again *crying*. Sinus headache here I come. I am just way to emotional for this right now. This is why I have a blog lol. I can hide my puffy eyes and runny nose.
All I want from those at lighthouse trails and elsewhere is to be careful, be extra vigilant. Each day that goes by you have to listen to the Holy Spirit more and more and more. It’s now a time where the whole Armour of God HAS to be put on 24/7. And there is NO COMMON GROUND with men who seek common ground.
Please pray for ALL good men of God who are being under attack and being deceived right now as the enemy slithers in closer – that they obey JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD, over piddly little earthly men who come bearing an array of degrees and doctorates and ‘services’ that oppose God, who are there to deceive and drag our pastors down with them.
I said that it’s time that the little sheep surround our pastors. Oh how I would love to illustrate the picture I have in my head lol. Maybe today I will try come up with something.
Regarding Chuck I have asked the Holy Spirit to show me if he has any error. I have not as yet come across anything he has said which will make me run away. I have a few negatives about him personally, which I dont need to discuss here. I never take mans word for it. I listen, then seek the truth through the word and the holy spirit. If I find error I leave it alone. This method has taken me through Rhema, which I ran out when GOD said through his word “Come Out Of Her My People” a teaching I was listening to from John Mcaurthur. I shall heed the warning from this site but I shall leave it up to GOD to show me as I seek only his truth. I dont care to place man, Pastors or Preachers on any level. God always answers my prayers. Thank you. I do not attend any church as error lurks in every corner. Instead we have home fellowship and we have no leader but the Holy Spirit. Neither do we Tithe but God shows me who to bless by that quiet small voice I have.
louise
Did you actually read my article?
I printed it out for tonights study reading. I go through realms of paper. Trust me
The person in whom we get our Chuck tapes from did not wish to meet us, or could not and still does not. It gets posted from his home to ours. Sometimes one is really impatient so we have to wait.
Can you recommend anyone else who we can support by listening to their tape ministry. We long for true fellowship. Thank you
I was sorry to see negative comments about Dave Hunt and LHT. Guys, can I exhort you to extend grace to these discernment ministries? We all need correction from time to time and when the critics who reject reality of error slice and dice us it is tough, but when we start to throw darts at each other, that is truly sad.
I don’t know what LHT did, somehow I missed that. But look at the courageous stands they take and the heat and hate they receive on a daily basis. If there is correction, keep it in the family and admonish with tenderness as did the Apostle Paul.
We are never going to agree on every single point. Take the observance of Christmas for instance. Some are very convicted in this area and abstain as they should, others choose to celebrate a holiday that is part of the fabric of society and use it to reach out to the lost.
This is different from Halloween that is clearly occultic.
The same goes with Resurrection Sunday. This is an area which we should reserve judgment. Follow your own convictions, but allow others liberty to follow theirs. To castigate Roger Oakland for his comments about Christmas is quite frankly, nitpicking. Roger has taken courageous stands for truth at great personal expense. And now he has been down for the count from a terrible accident and is still in the recovery process and is not able to be in ministry. To discount his ministry over this is short-sighted. Also, his assistant has gone through a horrible time with a brain tumor. Right now the ministry is limping along as best it can. We need to pray for these men who have sacrificed much for the sake of the truth.
Also, Dave Hunt who is in advanced years and poor health continues to faithfully write books and press on. T.A. has had serious health challenges the past couple of years. I have found his work to be very helpful except for a couple of very minor areas.
I do not believe that Dave is defending Missler. Dave weighs his words. Perhaps he is reaching out behind the scenes to correct. Let’s not be hasty to judge. Yes, hold him to account, but remember his advanced years and health challenges. Let’s pray for him and for Roger and others who are under attack.
As for LHT they are under constant attack and we need to hold them up in prayer and lovingly and gently edify them. We all need that from each other on the discernment team. These are perilous times and we can’t afford division in the discernment ranks.
Grace and peace to all!
Burning Lamp
From my side the comments are not negative about Dave Hunt and LHT. But there are one or 2 ministers who are involved with Chuck and I pray with all my heart they realise what’s happened. This is why we have to look after one another. Times have changed and we the little sheep need to help them. They need our help and I hope they are willing to let up help them. In the last days the Bible says that the man of lawlessness will wear the saints down. And this is exactly what is happening.
And yes, we always discern between those who are blatantly erroneous vs those who are genuine men of God who are under attack. We all make mistakes. I am so far from not making mistakes it’s quite ridiculous. In fact I am an accident looking for a place to happen lol.
I really admire all at Lighthousetrails for all they do on a daily basis. They stick to the Word of God like no one’s business and it’s awesome to know I can go there and get excellent information. And yeah sometimes there are topics that are very difficult to handle, like Christmas. I still celebrate Christmas day, but I don’t do the tree, and I do buy pressies for everyone. I know that the 25th is pagan. But in my heart, Christmas day is a day just like any other day created by God. I like it because of the delicious food we make for lunch hahaha. Like Easter – Never once bothered about Easter, I know Jesus died for me and was resurrected. But come Easter here in SA they make these little marshmallow chocolate coated easter eggs and oh boy, are they only good stuff.
Anyhow that’s my 2 cents for the day. I am tired. 3 hours sleep last night. I need to cook dinner for my starving husband. Hmmm I just noticed this comment seem to revolved around food.
Burning Lamp-
To start off, Debs isn’t just saying they are off on a little issue, she is concerned that they are promoting wolves amongst the sheep. I also emailed them about some of the concerns I had with Dave Hunt. Not on a “get em’” mission, but just asking if they were aware and to see if and how they were handling it. It’s not some little family issue, as you state, but if they are departing, even in subtle ways, we have to question that. I’m sure you would agree that Deborah would never handle them harshly, or more importantly, in an un-Scriptural manner, so why so much concern about a simple letter asking questions?
Did you actually read the quotes Roger Oakland made in the Christmas article? Take the idea of Christmas out of the fold, just briefly, and examine the quotes in light of themselves: He asks if we can become so pure and righteous that we can no longer live in this world. So, am I to assume that we should give up pursuing purity and righteousness, as we are compelled by the Lord Himself, simply because we can never attain perfection? Why should I not do everything in my human power to live unblemished from the world? IN the world, not OF it, right? I happen to live IN a world that, when I take my very young children to the grocery store from Oct to Jan, they are exposed to Halloween AND Christmas items, but the choice becomes mine if I choose to engage it and become OF the world. I cannot eliminate the pagan aspects of society, but by the grace of Christ, I can choose whether I engage them!
Further, Oakland takes the completely un-biblical stance that if we try to do things so right, the unbelievers of the world will think we’ve lost our mind. Since when are we to live parallel with the world in order to accommodate the comforts of the unbelieving of the community? “The message of the cross is FOOLISHNESS to those who are perishing, but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God!” 1 Cor 1:18. Couldn’t his argument be made over any decision we make not to partake in society’s sins? If we choose not to own a TV or go to the movies, people may think we’re out of touch, and that we’ve lost our minds, “For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I SHOULD not be a servant of Christ.” Gal 1:10 My decision to pursue Holiness is for the glory of Christ, to improve my testimony in a world craving Truth, craving something different than the status quo- looking for a Christian who actually lives the Word. And I certainly don’t care if unbelievers think I’m weird! What most Christians don’t realize that by partaking in these pagan practices, we confuse the world. Jews don’t understand Christians that celebrate the pagan holidays of Christmas/Easter because they know the truth of their origins. The Lord drove them out of their land because of the spiritual adultery- swearing by the Lord, yet adopting the vain traditions of man. Instead of maintaining their purity, they simply began to partake in the pagan practices, customs, and holiday’s of the pagan nations that surrounded them. You can go to many Wiccan sites and see that they often times mock Christians around Christmas for our ignorance on its true origins. Do we not think that compromises our testimony?
Further, Oakland says that if we choose not to participate in Christmas, we lose our right to share the gospel with our “neighbors” any other day of the year. How does that make sense? We have 365 days a year to share the gospel of Christ, but we have successfully convinced ourselves that we need to adopt the Festival of Saturnalia to strengthen our testimony? Imagine a church that dared say, “We don’t subscribe to the pagan practices of Babylon, nor the equally as offensive practices of the Roman Catholic harlot religion, but only Truth. And here, 365 days a year, that’s what you’ll get- not some culturally-tailored message to accommodate the unbelievers of our community.” If I ever started a church, that would be my motto!
So, you say it “castigates” Oakland to question his un-Scriptural comments and that it is nit-picking. Okay. I will nit-pick the tar out of someone who is clearly violating Scripture with his man-made opinion. Nothing he says is Scriptural! And if he can nit-pick Scripture, than I will use Scripture to nit-pick his opinions.
You also say it is short-sighted to discount a ministry for this reason. Well, if said ministry is forming opinions not absolutely grounded and contracted from Scripture, it seems to me that they discount themselves. Second of all, I find it interesting that discernment ministries will clearly point out the connections of the emergent church and the contemplative spirituality movement to the Roman Catholic Church, in fact, there are books out that speak of all road’s leading to Rome. A book authored by Oakland himself, warns of that trend. We can watch the Protestant churches of today beginning to adopt all of the trends of the RC Church- Stations of the Cross, vain prayer repetitions, candles, incense, even Mary-veneration and we are warned against this, but yet, we think God will simply wink if we partake in their pagan traditions/holidays because the greeting card companies say it’s okay? Or because, “Every body else is doing it!” This mass-following ideology is exactly why masses are falling into deception- because they find power in numbers, but yet Scripture gives examples of people who stood alone in their community, against the grain, to follow God. It seems to me Scripture exhorts us that we should avoid mass consumption to follow the narrow way that leads to everlasting life.
In regards to the celebration of Christmas, when God says in Rev 18, after having clearly defined in Rev 17 and 18 the harlot religion, to, “Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues,” he is saying do not participate in her behaviors, nor in her traditions, or we will, in turn, receive of her plagues! Acts 17:30 says,”And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.” We don’t get to live a life of ignorance if we want to truly deny ourselves, pick up our crosses, and follow Christ- we must repent of behaviors we could once claim ignorance of, and walk in the light of Truth. I hear many Christians say Halloween is clearly wrong, but Christmas is questionable. Halloween AND Christmas come from the same pagan backgrounds. One Satan has succeeded in fooling only the majority of the masses in, the other he has convinced the multitudes. I’m sure you can tell which is which. Satan masquerades as an angel of light- he won’t just use the pitchfork holiday to deceive God’s people! Eph. 5:11, “But have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them!”
Burning Lamp, that is 2 posts where you point out the physical ailments of the leaders spoken of, and also the elderly age. I appreciate your compassion, but find it lacking Scriptural support. I don’t mean this to be trite, but Noah was 600 years old when he built the ark! And he only lived another 350 years after the flood. So he was OLD, but even in the age context of his time, he was WAY over mid-way and God called him “just” and “perfect in his generations”, saying, he “walked with God”- meaning he separated himself from the wickedness of his culture and followed the Lord. The same is said of Enoch. It said he lived 365 years, and he “walked with God.” Job was afflicted with health issues and never once gave into the temptation to compromise in his faith. The Lord promises us he would give us the strength to endure temptations (trials). Romans 5 gives us a clear description of the benefit of trials. Further, Proverbs tells us, “The hoary (gray) head is a crown of glory, if it be found in the way of righteousness.” Gray hair is a crown of glory to those who have walked in righteousness- age does not mean your testimony or Scriptural truths should be compromised! I hear a lot of people using age to explain away Billy Graham’s comments- and I say False! Age doesn’t deceive! Rather, we should be MORE grounded in truth at the end of our lives!
What I hope you and others like you, who view it as a negative to call out wrong teaching from even those we’ve come to know and love, is that it is only negative if we neglect to say something. Scripture tells us that if we really love our children, we will discipline them, right? But yet, our perverse generation has people convinced that we show our love by letting them get away with whatever they want. God’s kingdom is different. He knows growth can only happen if we are willing to hold each other accountable. Think about Paul and Peter (Galatians). By your definition, Paul should have left Peter alone simply because he always had said the right things- afterall, he was a disciple of Christ Himself. But Paul, out of love for the disciples, out of love for Christ’s church, and mostly, for the love of Christ Himself, Paul confronted Peter, and the other disciples, who dared teach a different gospel. It was because of love for the Truth! We must speak out against wrong or false teaching! Why? Because we claim allegiance to Christ, and Christ alone. Again I proclaim Eph. 5:11.
I do agree that we should be praying daily for discernment ministries and any other pastor we see traveling the wide road, but this “feel-good” message of, “Poor babies- just leave them alone” comes not from Scripture…With Russ and the many others I see come on here at every turn to defend the leaders they think are fine against the righteous way we are to call them out, I say, “Get thee behind me, Satan…”
mom4truth
I have to totally agree with you. Age is not a factor, nor health for that matter. Paul was 90, under immense persecution, and got it right first time, all the time.
And as much as I pray for these ministers to get back on track. If they don’t I will have to say something. As a born again Christian we are compelled to speak out and warn others. And Chuck is a perfect example of ‘apologising’ but not changing his ways. So for these other ministers to fix what they have said and made ‘friends’ with, all they need to do is fix the problem but correcting what they said, removing these ‘friends’ from their lives who will ultimately destroy them and not do it again < — That’s the crux of the matter – not doing it again and listening to the Holy Spirit on such important matters as this.
I have noticed a trend where many speak out against WoF but are blind to Emergent Transformation/Reformation and then the opposite where they speak out against the Emergent movement and WoF but still have ties with people who are not ok and are deceivers.
I think many do not realise that this Transformation movement is part and parcel of the WoF which grew into the Apostolic and Prophetic movement which is now the Transformation/Reformation movement (can we call these people New Calvinists?) and that the Transformations movement is just another name for the Emergent movement with different terminology and less intense in Roman Catholic practices, but as time goes by it will all come together and everyone will have been caught up into Vatican II.
New Calvinists is the new name for people who have taken a bit from WoF, the Apostolic, the Prophetic, moved into Transformation/Reformation (Unity of all ‘Christian’ faiths) and a little bit of Emergence without even knowing it and within all these lies a great deal of New Age teaching and practices that will push everyone into a New World ‘Christ-ian’ consciousness. In fact it’s happened already and no one even knows it. They call it ‘Love’.
So as much as we the little sheep need to help our ministers stay on track and warn them too for they are not immune to the lies of this world – if they don’t listen they will need to be asked outright why they have changed their stance.
Mom,
if you knew me you would know that I take a very strong stand for truth – I respect no man/woman/person over the Word of God. I have seen teacher after teacher, pastor after pastor who I have respected fall into apostasy. I do not for a minute believe that Dave Hunt and T.A. Macmahon fall into that category. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based on their faithful service in defense of the faith and the truth. We all make mistakes or are you the exception? I am not excusing Dave because of his age – but I do respect him and realize that it may take him a little longer to respond. He is always very careful to get his facts straight. I think I owe him for the many ways he defends the faith and takes horrendous heat for doing so. He is one of the few who has dared to expose Billy Graham.
Are you aware of what a devious teaching Calvinism is for instance? He took this on when no one else had the courage to do so and got raked over the coals for it.
Now Roger Oakland. Perhaps you would like to take a walk in his shoes. You are ready to throw out all the good work he has done for the Lord because of some remarks he made about Christmas? I know a good number of godly men of God who celebrate Christmas – you should read John R. Rice’s little book I Love Christmas and see how he expounds on it and answers the concerns about the paganism. This is NOT something to cause division. If you are so particular then you would have to throw out your calendar because all the names have pagan roots.
Roger Oakland is one of the most courageous and remarkable men of God of our time. He has been the butt of jokes from others who call themselves Christian. Then he suffered a terrible accident that left his brain disabled and he is still recovering. Talk about kicking someone when they are down!
You would discount someone’s ministry because they suggest that a Christian could celebrate Christmas and use it for God’s glory? Are you condemning every believer who celebrates Christmas or Easter as sinning? You certainly have the right to your convictions, but please don’t judge so harshly those who have not reached that conclusion. This happens to be something you feel strongly about and that is fine. If you are convicted about it you should act accordingly.
Personally, I use the Christmas custom to share our testimony of what the Lord has done in the past year with those we only contact once a year. I have a friend who gets vehement if anyone mentions Christmas. This does nothing for the cause of Christ!.Opportunities abound to give witness of the Lord and share the Gospel. We demonstrate the true meaning of Christmas as a witness to our neighbors. It opens the door to be able to witness. This is a holiday that neither you or I can change. Trust me, I am just as much against pagan influence as you are. But there are much more sinister and sneaky forces at work that we often miss while dwelling on the obvious.
We have to pick our battles. There are countless abberant teachings and false teachers and religions. There are many errors. We have to choose the ones we take on.
Bottom line, I am going to cut Dave and T.A. some slack and let them deal with the Missler issue. Perhaps there is something going on behind the scenes we don’t know about. I am just saying let’s not be so quick to criticize. Dave has been a living sacrifice for the Lord as has T.A. If he falls into deception I will be the first to call him out.
Burning Lamp
>> Are you aware of what a devious teaching Calvinism is for instance? He took this on when no one else had the courage to do so and got raked over the coals for it.
That is very true and that is why we have so many baptists leading the emergent front lines. Many thought (as did I) that last year (lol) a baptist church was the savest place to go too. Errrr…. my bad.
>> Roger Oakland is one of the most courageous and remarkable men of God of our time.
I know, that is why I love him very much. I didn’t know how severe his accident was. Let us pray that during this time he recovers well because I know (well I say “I know”, but it’s more just like me praying) that he has still has a lot to do.
Watch and pray is what Jesus told us to do regarding His return and the same applies to people we know and have come to love and respect as wonderful men of God. Just watch, and keep watching and praying. We say things sometimes and it comes out the wrong way. But we keep watching. And we listen to the Holy Spirit speaking to us. We can’t take matters into our own hands either so to say, when we are born again we have the Holy Spirit in us who identifies born again Christians with eachother. But…when these little ‘errors’ somehow become more blatant that is when we put out our first BIG question mark.
Take notice, well it’s something I have noticed anyhow. When a man is genuinely losing the plot he loses it fast. Sometimes you don’t even get time to ask, ‘hey that’s not right…’ because he’s already sipping tea with Rick Warren.
Let’s keep everyone in our prayers, watch and pray.
PS, Christmas is 9 months plus a few days away. I will be more than welcome to send y’all my address as to where pressies can go.
Deborah,
Great post on Missler. He’s definitely an anti-Christian globalist.
Thanks Bob. And boy what a shocker is was
A comment from me on this. Chuck Missler is promoted by some discerning christians as you say. I’ve never understood why. He seems to be into some very strange stuff (UFOs and all that) which has nothing to do with Biblical faith.
I thought that Deborah’s second paragraph was particularly perceptive (Chuck’s teachings fitting in with his business interests). This is a standard marketing practice found not just in the world, but also in some less than scrupulous branches of the church. You create fear (where none previously existed) and sell a product that takes away the fear.
Worldly example 1: there are lots of burglars around and your home could be next, but buy an alarm system from me and they’ll choose another house.
Worldly example 2: your business could be prosecuted if it’s health and safety paperwork isn’t up to scratch, but buy my book and you’ll be able to do it all.
Church example 1: you find it hard to understand the Bible and may risk going off the path of sound doctrine (which could put your salvation in doubt), but everything I preach is 100% correct so subscribe to my weekly teaching tapes and I’ll explain it all to you.
Church example 2: the end-times are coming, christians will be persecuted and be unable to buy food unless they have the mark of the beast, but buy my book and I’ll show you how to be self-sufficient.
So I take a very dim view of this sort of thing.
Andrew
My husband said to me the other night. “Expert says: There will be a nuclear explosion on the one side of the world, rush out and buy canned food, especially tuna fish. The guy with the finger on the nuclear bomb button just so happens to own the cannery and the largest tuna fishing company in the world.”
This is exactly what they did with the financial crisis. Create a fear and then add THEIR solution. In fact this is what is happening in SA at the moment. A lot of fear is being created amongst the people so the EU/UN can help us out with their solution.
Saul was a Roman citizen by birth, of Tarsus, a student of Gamaliel, circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the stock of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to him, those he counted loss for Christ.
Paul could converse in the theology, religion, politics, poetry and history and culture and mythology of his day. When Paul spoke in Acts 17: 17-33, he spoke of “THE UNKNOWN GOD”, and by doing it Paul spoke to them of Christ resurrected.
Can you discuss the topics of our day and bring to mind Christ resurrected?
Today any conversation with any person, anywhere at anytime, could result in approaching the dreaded three topics: sex, religion and politics. What does the word of truth say about those subjects? Can you rightly divide the word of truth on these three subjects and bring to mind Christ resurrected? II Timothy 2:15
If those three subjects become uncomfortable, the subject might well become any other number of odd topics. UFO’s, Atlantis, King Arthur, Black holes, sports, global finances, dog training, everything from Super Novae, to radiometric dating, evolution, movies, to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and any endless number of subjects from witchcraft to automobile racing and comparative religion are possible.
You can choose your own list. I guarantee that if you live in this world with humans who are still breathing and still possessing the ability to speak, odd subjects will come up, and unless you hide your belief in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, you will be asked to explain the hope that lies within you. At that critical place you will make a decision. You will either share from the wealth of your personal opinion or if you have been diligent and studied, you will do your best to explain it from the word of God.
You decide what is preferable. God will decide what he thinks is best.
I wonder how many actually read Acts 17:11 before listening to Chuck Missler? It is the cornerstone of his approach. Get the people to check it out themselves. Make up your own mind and be diligent. Read and study, and test and prove.
Matthew 24:15 Read it. Mark 13:14 Read it. Jesus says whoever reads it, let them understand! There is no way around this one!
That means you!
Can you understand it?
If you cannot understand the importance of Daniel chapter 9, I suggest you get yourself a little free time and learn to understand it. If Jesus is your King and Lord, why would you resist his words in the middle of his personal teaching on the “sign of his coming”, and “the end of the world”.
There are many excellent commentaries and books on the subject. Read a bunch of them and as many as you can until you are reasonably familiar and understand it. Barnhouse and Walvoord are very good and very readable. The Coming Prince, by Anderson is excellent and a gem but sometimes is a little difficult. Understand that there are different opinions within the context of scripture, learn them and then submit your work to God as one who needs not be ashamed.
If you want multi media I suggest Chuck Missler and his Daniel DVD’s. If you cannot afford it, you can find the sections on Daniel 9, online on Youtube
or Google video for free. They are excellent.
Whatever way you do it, learn the material. Do not cheat yourself.
Everything points us in only one direction.
HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD
jlbriem
Firstly, I have no idea what you are speaking about in 3/4 of your comment. But if you want to HEAR about Jesus Christ, there is this book called the Bible. It’s very affordable. And in that way you will never be cheated by the likes of Chuck Missler.
Deborah (Discerning the World):
I always want to hear about Jesus and I have Bibles. What makes you think that Chuck Missler would cheat me?
Hmm! 1/4 only, I shall try to clear that up! If I walk around the issue a bit, please be patient with me. You copy and paste large amounts of data into your website.
Acts 17:10, Acts 17:11. If I am going to act like a Berean it will take me sometime to actually go through all the references you include. I guess I need to clear up a few points before I can explain what is meant in my comments which you kindly allowed in your website.
Thanks for the using software in your website which shows scripture verses when the cursor is placed on it. It will save me some time typing out the verses. I think technology is great. Some people do not.
Romans 14:14 Technology can be a great thing and is not unclean of itself. Romans 14:22 If you thought that technology was evil and still used it, you would condemn yourself and not be happy. Romans 14:23
You have a computer and have a website. You allow it. Be happy in faith before God.
Romans 14:17 The Kingdom of God is not meat and drink.
Is it evil according to the word of God to have a computer and a website? It is an acceptable and yet difficult question. I know people who think that because so much of the computer and internet is used for pornography, the technology itself is evil. Are we evil for being online or for using technology in general?
How do you prove or disprove the question with scripture?
We both accept technology even though the word computer and website are nowhere in the text of scripture. That is a fact. How does a person get past this point and still do what is legal and acceptable in their life before God.
How do you do it?
This is how I do it!
In Romans 14:17, I allow myself the liberty before God for “meat and drink”, to be a kind of substitute for computers and websites and technology in general. I trust the Lord to understand and not be displeased. Jeremiah 10:23, Jeremiah 10:24 In my life I trust the Lord to be gentle in all those areas not clearly specified in scripture and yet still a part of my life. Micah 6:8 always applies when there is any doubt.
Romans 14:14 Technology can be a great thing and is not unclean of itself.
Accusing anyone of heresy because you think that a certain technology such as SWANsat is bad and that involvement with it by itself is evil, is contrary to the spirit of the text. Was the inventor of television evil because Revelation 11:9 says that “they … shall SEE their dead bodies…”.
I think not. It may not be television at all. What you imply is your personal business but to call your personal opinion about Chuck Missler a violation of Christian law is unacceptable. If you have clear proof that they intend SWANsat for evil and knowingly express that fact, show it. If you do not, than it is nothing more than your opinion and a shallow one at that.
That is my first point!
My point is not simple but then neither is the Book of Romans. Issues of the law concerning devotional matters, personal and private matters, or public actions are difficult in themselves.
You make very serious public accusations and judgments in the name of Christ about people and groups in your website without consistent documentation. Some of the groups are clearly nonscriptural and are not Christian by their own words. Some of them are clearly professing Christ resurrected and declaring him as Lord and King and you still declare them heretics. You make declarations on legal issues and act like an apologist.
If you want to act like a lawyer you should expect to be treated like one. Hiding behind a phrase like,”be gentle, I bruise easily” does not work in a secular non believing courthouse and we as Christians should live by a higher standard of ethics anyway. But you seem to relish the power you have to delete and the proxy authority you use because it is your website. If you cannot make an explanation for your positions, what you do is nothing but gossip and slander, even if it is hid behind mountains of copied and pasted things. Having a group of people who agree with you through constant postings does not change anything. Even the unbelieving world understands the concepts of slander and misrepresentation and allows for civil penalties under the law.
You make unsupported and silly statements sometimes. Here is one. Rockwell International:
A multifaceted company that worked in the manufacturing arena for defense and space industries. Rockwell International are Freemason/Illuminati.
Please note the webpage. (http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM5MXN_Chet_Holifield_Federal_Building_AKA_The_Ziggurat_Building_Laguna_Niguel_CA)
I lived in Southern California. I remember finding this building while driving around looking for a place to eat. I have seen it and I have been on the property. There was no security or fenced enclosure; it was empty and unoccupied for years. Whoever built it lost a lot of money. No conspiracy here. The government got the office space cheap. Rockwell left the building long before the government started using it.
Rockwell International are the people who built the Space Shuttle. Good job and a job well done. They are people like you and me, working hard and feeding their families. Over 78,000 employees*. Some of them, and I mean Rockwell Employees, may be Shriners and drive the little clown cars in parades but to make them all Freemasons/ Illuminati shows that you understand neither. It demeans you and insults them.
* http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Rockwell-International-Corporation-Company-History.html
Not so long ago Chuck Missler was at the:
God’s News Behind the News International Prophecy Conference 2000 – Orlando Florida, 5-8 April 2000
Do you have a copy of his message delivered on that day? You have no link to it. WHY NOT? If you cannot judge him on what he said, what are you judging him for? Are you judging him for hidden secret things that only you know?
Are you implying that simply by being there he was guilty of something? If that kind of logic is used, we should never preach to the sinners because just being around them makes us guilty of heresy by absorption. If you are talking about something you know, say it and document it. Statements without support when you talk about people are called gossip. When it defames a person it is called slander. Truthful statements are never considered slanderous or gossip.
You have taken the time to include a reference:
Jackie Alnor from Apostasy Alert tried to contact Chuck Missler on why he attend this conference but did not receive a reply from him. http://www.apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/quantum.htm
Lets look at what she said about Chuck Missler and include every comment.
1. Chuck Missler: “Chuck was encouraged by his close friend Hal Lindsey to pursue his long-time love of teaching the Bible on a full-time basis. Chuck had spent over twenty-five years teaching the Word of God under Pastor Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. Koinonia House was soon formed, with the mission to encourage people to seriously study the Bible as the inerrant Word of God” (Answer: all true )
2. With the exception of Chuck Missler, the speakers sound like a bunch of spiritual alchemists who think they can make angels appear, change reality by the power of their own words, and impart power to others. (Answer: Chuck is the exception and the others are weird and unscriptural by Jackie Alnor’s definition. I no nothing about them at all. I have listened to Chuck Missler and he documents his comments and makes them available to check and research. )
3. But how did Jones get replaced by Chuck Missler in this conference? He stands out as one coming from an entirely different camp than the others. He has ministered in Calvary Chapel circles for decades while the Kansas City Prophets element in the church has always been suspect to any Bible-believing Calvary Chapel leader (Answer: He got lucky and I suspect that they were unused to hearing someone preach Christ Resurrected and that salvation comes only through the shed blood of Jesus. I would think that most of them regretted his attendance.)
4. Maybe they just recognize some of the common ground they share with Missler who has toyed with the mystical realm in some of his books and teachings on Y2K, “Cosmic Codes – Hidden Messages From the Edge of Eternity,” and “Alien Encounters.” (Answer: The titles are probably why he got in the door. What he thinks and teaches about those subjects is completely different than the other speakers. Where in these lessons does he not preach Christ crucified and ressurected? Y2K was a serious technical problem with computers and timekeeping and had nothing to do with spiritual things. By the grace of God the best case scenario happened at Y2K. Nothing happened. Many people were worried, I was not. Chuck Missler did not write the Torah! Underlying structure in the Torah is there. It is not the DaVinci or the Omega code of the movies. Ask an orthodox Jew if he knows anything about it. Nothing is unclean of itself and if you do not like the titles that is your problem. Talking about odd issues is not criminal. If he is scripturally wrong, quote the mistakes and make your point. If you do not listen to what he says but judge only by the title of the lesson it is simply foolishness. We all can speculate on weird things without sinning before God, and if we do sin we have an Advocate to speak for us before the Father, Jesus Christ.)
5. I attempted to contact Missler for his comments, but he did not reply to my emails and his staff intercepted my phone calls and wouldn’t patch me through. I couldn’t get any further than Missler’s assistant Gordon McDonald. He seemed unfamiliar with Gateway or Elijah List but brushed off my concerns with the statement that Missler does not turn down any requests for him to speak as long as he is given liberty to say what he wants to say. He dismissed all of my objections that Missler sharing the stage with mystics and false prophets could stumble many young believers who could assume Missler’s involvement was an endorsement of any and all teaching and actions that might occur. Since the names Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel were used in the advertising, could this be a ploy to draw in unsuspecting Christians to a gathering where deceiving spirits are welcome?
(Answer: He does not have to reply to Jackie personally and not talking to her is not proof of a conspiracy. For all she knows he could have been in New Zealand and unavailable over the phone. She did talk to someone and was not satisfied. The fact that Gordon is unfamiliar with Gateway and Elijah list means nothing. I am unfamiliar with them as well. It is probably a good thing. It is not for Jackie to be the judge of where Chuck Missler goes or what he says. He is an educated, experienced and bible believing Christian. “could this be a ploy”? Jackie does not know if it is a ploy so the comment is meaningless and just speculation and conjecture. She cannot know. Who is she to judge the intentions of a man before God without any proof of any kind.)
6. So the question remains: Will Missler speak up against these dark teachings when he takes the platform or will he go on as if they’re all one big happy family? If anyone can attend Quantum Leap-2, please report back so that leaders in Calvary Chapels who are booking their next pastors conferences will know whether or not to include Missler on their own rosters. (Answer: I do not see any mention by Jackie Alnor that she received any video, audio, or text materials from that meeting or that she listened at any time to any of it. She did not attend and does not know what went on. She should be quiet and mind her own business unless gossip is her business. Since she did not attend the conference, her concern over what a Christian teacher and a pastor said or did at that conference, is based only in her own doubt and from her own worries, the rest is silence and unproven accusations. The fact is that her lack of support quietly implies an appearance of evil even if there is no proof of it. That is unbiblical, unethical and wrong. The law demands evidence and testimony before guilt can be proven. By the way, what are her credentials that you receive her accusations so quickly without any knowledge about a matter and doubt someone who has been speaking in public and teaching scripture for over 30 years. I am fairly certain that at no time do the Pastors of any of the Calvary Chapels ask Jackie Alnor for her advice on whom they book and who they allow to speak. I know they do not ask me and they do not ask you either. Why would they?)
I have a question. You do not say anything at all about( Chuck Missler of Koinonia House sponsored: The Malta Expedition – 2004, ‘Exclusive Archaeological Cruise Event’ . ), other than to describe it. Is it a problem in your philosophy to visit a place that may have a dubious history? If so, why do you feel that way and what scripture do you use to support this view?
Vad Yashem, holocaust day is just past us. Does a visit to Auschwitz imply a problem in a person’s theology? If it does, what problem do you see? Does it imply that the person visiting Auschwitz is a Nazi? What if the person is Jewish? If it does not imply a problem, what is the problem with a visit to Malta on a biblical tour to the Mideast?
It baffles me unless you are accusing by subtlety that somehow a visit to Malta means that Chuck Missler is up to something evil because something evil happened there in the past.
You do not sound like a hater and I just do not get or understand the anger and lack of detailed support of your position. I could be wrong. You might be a hater. I hope not.
I have not finished reading about SWANsat and I cannot comment on it at this time. There is a lot to read.
Thank you for your time and patience. When posted I look forward to your response.
This is how I do it!
In Romans 17:17, I allow myself the liberty before God for “meat and drink”, to be a kind of substitute for computers and websites and technology in general.
Deborah will you please correct the reference before posting. It should read Romans 14:17. Thank you.
[Edited: fix it - now says Romans 14:17]
jlbriem
Why do you want to follow men? When you can read the Bible and receive the best information first hand from God. Not a man made interpretation where they include 90% and 10% error. The error is enough to throw you off course over time.
You seem to want to make excuses for everything instead of just reading the bible. What is greater, Chuck Misslers information, or the Word of God?
Do you have the Holy Spirit abiding in you that you can leave men to their own devices and read the Word of God by yourself with the Holy Spirit as your interpreter?
Numbers 6:24, Numbers 6:25, Numbers 6:26
Thank you for the note. It was very kind of you to correct the miswritten quote. I really do appreciate it and I mean that sincerely.
My sister and I just finished a phone conversation where she was discussing a decision she was in the process of making. She had just returned from a vacation and had enjoyed the peace and quiet. I was so happy that she had a chance to go. Upon her return, she noticed that she had stresses which had nothing to do with anything except for things she was receiving from outside sources. She told me that what happens in some city far away in the news is not needed or really important to her daily walk with the Lord and the stress it causes to her can be dealt with. So she turned off the radio and television and is going to listen for that still small voice in the quietness of her home. There is wisdom in separating oneself from the world, but even the Amish who choose to remain agrarian in life, have problems. Each of us must find our way. Proverbs 3: 1-8
She is not a person who is prone to extremes and weirdness and I thank the Lord for her kindness and compassion for Christ’s sake. She believes that there is more wisdom in giving a coat to a person who is cold than a weeks full of discussion on the merits of charity.
I do not understand your focus on Chuck Missler, and it is not necessary to the plan of God for me to understand why. You have your own reasons, but we must do our service before the Lord, decently and in order. But I will ask you this. Do you pray for him? Do you seek the Lord on his behalf for good?
Chuck can take care of himself. He belongs to God and not to me. James 3:1 James 3: 2 Teaching is tough and teachers can and do offend.
If I never hear Chuck Missler teach again I will be fine. I was alive and was seeking the Lord before I ever heard his name. No teacher is the source of my salvation. But being apt to teach is scriptural and a good thing. 2Timothy 2: 24,25,26 We should not be of those who get weird and educate themselves until they deny that education is unnecessary. Moderation is the key but without love it is all for nothing.
Dr. Walter Martin in one of his studies, when he was alive and teaching at Melodyland in Anaheim, California, and I was in the audience; pointed out by scripture, that the word of God makes it clear that all teachers are subject to some error by the hand of God himself, so that no one could glory in man, but that only God was true. I must admit that I do not have the whole bible memorized by chapter and verse. I cannot find it today and I guess I have another thing to look for. But it is in there and I will find it again. We must all seek first the Kingdom of god and his righteousness.
I guess a little testimony would help in making clear my interest in something that by itself is not that important. Somehow, with all the websites and all the millions of places in all the world I ended up here. God has his reasons and I am not the one in control of the universe.
I believe that expositional, chapter by chapter study of the whole bible is the best way to learn. Isaiah 28:9, Isaiah 28:10 That being said, these are a few of my favorite teachers. I will not list every book or teacher and leaving out thousands of influences is to be expected. I try to read everything. I do not recommend it for everyone but it is very good for me.
J. Vernon Magee and the bible bus, have an influence in my life directly. His radio show was always a joy. I started attending Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, shortly after they moved out of the tent and into the new building. I had long hair and wore a poncho which my mother gave me as a gift from a trip she took to Ecuador. I sat on the floor a lot. I rejoiced in my youth as one of the Jesus people. I was not part of a group called “Jesus people”, like it was a cult or some kind of denomination. At that time the term Jesus People was common. I was a person who chose to seek the Lord and to do his will by choice. If someone met me they could say, oh, he is one of those Jesus people, as a contrast to there own faith. I did not hide my light under a bushel. Nothing was strange or weird about it. I spent about seven years, going to church seven days a week. I owe Chuck Smith a debt of gratitude for the education I received. God bless him. It was there that I realized that all of the bible I had read as a child, was still in my head; and that the Sunday school lessons, no matter how disruptive I was with my questions, were not in vain. The word came back to my mind and I was surprised that I knew a lot of the stories by heart already. God is great. Calvary Chapel was the first place I went through the whole bible, cover to cover, multiple times, organized and diligently. Dr. Walter Martin, The Bible Answer man, was influential and his giving an answer for the hope that lies within us, taught me to defend the faith according to the scripture. He taught me that we must given an answer, but that it must be done according to the scripture, decently and in order. There are many who call themselves believers and are not. These people and groups must be challenged by what they write and by the words that come out of their mouths. It is a tough choice for a ministry and I am sure that it is not a good path for everyone. But it must be done. You must have source documents and quote correctly. Organizing clearly and concisely that which is not in agreement with the word of God is the whole point. Dr, John Warwick Montgomery and his grasp of law and philosophy, helped me to stand against the subtle undertows of world thought and Christian heresies. Scholarship must be above reproach. His degree in library science is evident in the way he keeps track of his statements and most important, the way he keeps track of the statements of others. And the issue is indeed one of the law, the rest is just opinion. If we are going to give an answer we must do it legally. When supposed Christian scholars declared God is Dead, he was the one to explain to me how they ended up that way believing such foolishness. Francis Schaeffer was also a wonderful influence on understanding the natural progression of philosophical thought that brought Europe to philosophical emptiness. His insistence is that love must be at the beginning and ending of our testimony to the unbelieving world, for without it, they will not believe us. We are to love one another. If we do not love each other, we lie and the truth is not in us.
J. Vernon Magee, Chuck Smith, and Walter Martin are the main three teachers of my youth.
I spent a year looking for an answer to a single bible question. I had been spending a lot of time talking to Jewish friends about Jesus and ran into a question during my studies that needed an answer. I was glad that my Jewish friends did not ask me the question because I would have not had an answer for them. I kept it secret and only told my closest brothers I studied with. I was not slack in my pursuit of the answer. I had friends who helped me and was thankful that I was not alone in my search. We prayed and sought the Lord for the answer to this thing. We were diligent before the Lord and did not take the scripture lightly. None of the seminaries, colleges, libraries, commentaries or books were able to answer my question. It was not suspicious thing it was just that no one at the time had the answer.
This is the text I was reading when I found the question..
John 8: 56,57,58,59
Jesus said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it and was glad.”
This is the question.
Where in the Old Testament did Abraham rejoice to see Jesus’ day and in seeing it was glad?
After nearly a year of searching, I was attending a study and the teacher was talking about an experience he had just had.
He was a bit frustrated by the disbelief around him and wanted to do something about it. He had taken his books and commentaries and put them into his car and went out to find someone he could convince by force of evidence that Jesus Christ was the Lord and saviour. He noticed someone hitchhiking and pulled over thinking that this was as good an opportunity as any. But to his surprise, this is what happened.
When the hitchhiker got into the car he addressed the teacher by name. This person then without a single word, asked him to pray with him for Jesus to become his Lord and saviour. The teacher was immediately stunned, and ashamed. But it was not the hide in the dark because I have done something wrong kind of ashamed, it was the kind of shame that reminds of his love for us, of his blood shed for us before we knew him, the kind of shame that brings tears of love and joy, and sends us into his loving arms. The lesson was that God does not need our help, we need his help. God is in control no matter what we think or struggle with.
That message was for me. I had no doubt that God had used this thing to speak directly to me. God is in control, He does not need my help or my intellect to do his will. He does allow me to participate but I cannot be successful on my own. I need him to go before me and prepare the way.
I had been getting frustrated with no answer in my search. I was having to deal with the issue of whether or not the answer to my question was even there in the bible. That did not sit well with my conscience or my spirit. I was in an intellectual dilemma. I could pretend that I was not in a mess, but I was. Is the bible to be trusted? It is a hard question to ask when you call yourself a believer.
I was faced with a choice. Believe in the bible without evidence, or throw the book into the trash and get on with my life.
The Sermon and message convinced me to let go of my doubts as best as was possible and to trust God for that which I could not see. I informed my friends of what my decision was and went on without an answer to my question. I began a fast and sought God for his guidance about my lingering thoughts about the question.
I knew that a week long praise and worship camp was being scheduled at the new Arrowhead facility recently purchased by Calvary Chapel. I took a week of vacation from work and signed up. I needed a break away from my questions. I arrived and spent the night thinking about the point of the camp: Leave the world behind, focus on the Lord, praise and worship him. I was still fasting. I kept up a front and did not let anyone know what had brought me to this place. Talking about doubt at a praise meeting is not the best way to make friends. The body of Christ can be very unforgiving.
I woke up and cleaned myself and prepared for the first class of the day and the first class of the week. I did not know the teacher and was unfamiliar with him. The schedule did not list the topic of the message. I did not feel at rest but I was there because I chose to believe that God is in control, even if I do not understand something.
The first message, on the first day was this:
“The Gospel was preached to Abraham in Genesis 22.”
Holiness unto the Lord, blessed be his name forever.
I received an answer to my question.
Matthew 6:31-34 I received the answer to my question and understood it. Seek him first! I broke my fast at the first meal. Fasting past this point no longer had a purpose. I had much to praise and worship the Lord for and a week already set aside for it. I thanked the Lord for the teacher and for sending him to me.
The name of the teacher was Chuck Missler.
Chuck was still at Western Digital when he began to teach in the overflow room at Calvary Chapel. I began to attend those classes and I was there when the Firefighters for Christ began their tape ministry. This was before Koinonia or Khouse was started.
It has been at least twenty years since I have seen Chuck Missler. I have his commentaries on Genesis, Leviticus, Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation. I have many others from other teachers and use them all. I find no fault in his teaching in these commentaries. His learn the bible in 24 hours is excellent and I give them away to family and friends. It is easier and has up to date references, because much has been learned and much has happened since the Unger bible handbook was written. I still use the Unger handbook. In fact my old copy contains things that are now removed from the new ones. Mine has a church history section from pages 899-917.
When Chuck speculates, he says so. I still have cassettes on Ezekiel that are twenty years old. I bought the DVD’s when he went through Ezekiel last year. What I found most amazing were areas in which he pointed out changes in his views, different from those that were on the cassettes I owned, because the word of God forced him to change. God is making his word available, because the Holy Spirit chooses it to be so, and we must continue to grow and learn.
I like it when Chuck talks about UFO’s, and weird things. I am a little weird myself and I like to have answers to issues that confront me when people talk. It is a hard thing to biblically find your way through an unusual subject and he does his best. I have benefited from his approach and method of study. His teaching style has remained the same over the years.
I have a history with the man and I love him as a brother. I pray for him. He does not know this story and my testimony, but God does. And know you know it. So, if I ever find him teaching something contrary to scripture, and I do not mean contrary to my opinion, and they are very different things: I will confront him personally. The final decision of his guilt is not for me to make because the scripture does not allow the accuser to be the judge as well. It must be someone else. First and foremost, I will give him the opportunity to defend himself from unsupported accusation. The law demands it and Chuck would agree. We must love our brothers and sisters and treat them as Christ would treat us. The world and many Christians do not act this way. They should.
Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin accused Jesus falsely, they bore false testimony against Jesus, and in violation of Jewish law, put him to death. It was wrong then and it is wrong now to do something similar.
I am not advocating that anytime I disagree with someone, that it gives me the right to challenge them and call them before the elders of the church. When I use the word confront, I do not mean stalking. Everything must be done decently and in order. There are too many mentally ill people wandering around thinking that it is their job to fix everything. They can be dangerous. We must be sober and vigilant in these matters.
I still need to have answers to my questions. I believe in Noah and the Ark. If you think that a study on dinosaurs is not relevant, you are not talking to anyone. I have been studying Genesis 6 for a long time. I have been forced into Cosmology. Is there life out there besides us? Are there UFO”s? Those who believe in UFO’s wonder how I can believe in Jesus Christ. I choose to be able to answer them from the bible as best as I can. The rest is up to God!.
I have no agenda only a testimony.
HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD
Worthy is he to be praised.
Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty,
Who was, and is and is to come,
Worthy is he to be praised.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is my friend.
I love him because he first loved me.
He is the Alpha and the Omega,
The beginning and the end,
The first and the last,
King of Kings, and Lord of Lords,
Jesus Christ,
My Lord and my God.
Worthy is he to be praised.
Chuck and Perry are both Freemasons products of the Order of the ages, the “non-luminaries,” exalting what is in man. TBN, God Channel, CTN, CTC, Daystar are satanic without doubt. Their function is to deceive real Believers in Christ while they help set the stage for the man of lawlessness.
The twisting of scripture gives opportunity to slip teachings of the occult. My advice is not to have any lay their hands on you. These are the same that meet and agree with binding oaths speaking against real people of God. These are facts not some theory. I would say to anyone that has an ear to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying, to seek out asking the Father by the blood and in the name of Jesus. If you are serious and are wholeheartedly desiring His perfect will, be prepared for rude awakenings of truth while your beliefs will be challenged with the revealing truth by the Holy Spirit. This will set you on an adventure of being awakened realizing what scriptures really do say. May the grace and peace of the LORD Jesus Christ be on them that fear the Most High God who also sets the stage for His soon coming.
Hi Deborah,
Can you point me to where Chuck Missler has done “Bible Code divination”? I have never heard or seen him do this in any of his materials.
Thanks,
Ron
Hello, this is the first time I have posted to this site. I was raised in the Watchtower religion, otherwise known as Jehovah’s Witnesses and remained in the Cult for 49 years after having been ‘convinced’ that I was in the ‘Truth’ as every JW knows it as. But something deep inside me always felt I was not hearing the whole truth about them and what they believe.
When I first got onto the internet in 1999 the first thing I typed in was Jehovah’s Witnesses and I then realised what a satanic religion I was involved with. Every JW is inculcated with the coming ‘New World’ New World Order’ or ‘New System’ as we often called it.
Whilst doing my research into the history of Watchtower Society I was amazed at how it wa sfounded on freemasonry and the occult.
Russell the founder of the religion used many Enochian magic terminology, like ‘Golden Age’ ‘Millenial Dawn’ and even ‘Watchtower’ and he used the pyramid and the Knight of the Templar cross and crown emblem. He also used the wings and eye of horus symbol as used by Chrysler, Bentley, Mini and other famous marks.
After a while both my wife and I got out of the cult in June 2001 and finally accepted Jesus as our only WAY, TRUTH & LIFE in November 2002.
However the Masonic had affected us both and it was until around a year after we became Born Again that we attended an advanced training seminar of breaking off connections with freemasonry and similar cults. At that seminar as we were renouncing Masonic oaths that may have been spoken by fathers of grandfathers, that I started choking and fell to the floor.
The Lord told me that it was the neck tie that we were commanded to wear at JW meetings and knocking doors. I did not even have a tie on at that seminar and have not worn one since geeting out of the cult.
I know I giving quite a bit about us here, but getting onto the subject of Chuch Missler, I see similar things with him as the JW hierachy. I just cannot listen to him for very long and yet I have some of his CDs and have tried to watch him.
I do aggree with the fallen angels marrying women as that is Biblical and I wa staught that from a child in the WT.
Many of these false prophets/teachers, such as Rick Joyner, Rick Warren, Bob Jones and many others are so cunning.
Since we have been out I have been studying Theology and have had to change much of what I believed as a JW and even since accepting Jesus Christ.
For the past 3 years we have lived in Cyprus and that was only because the Lord gave my wife visions of a place that we did not know at the time. It turned out to be Cyprus, which is a place that my wife never wanted to come to as it gets very hot here and it is 2000 miles from our 2 daughters and 5 Grandchildren in the UK.
However as the Lord sent us here, we now totally trust that he has a purpose for us here. My wife is leading some Cypriot women to trust in the Lord as they are nominal Orthodox Christians and they have many icons and false teachings. But they need the love of Jesus Christ and to know what he really wants from us.
Anyhow I have gone on quite a bit. Our testimonies are on http://www.4jehovah.org and web site for getting JWs and Mormons out of their cults. My testimony is under David and my wife is Christine.
Blessings
David
Ron
If you look at top of the artilce it says so. You can also do your own research on this.
Hi David
Awesome that you escaped JW’s. I see just a few little issues I want to address so that you think about them.
http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/02/18/who-were-the-nephilim-two-sides-to-every-story/
First story is pro-nephilim with angels pregnating women, the second one is my interpretation which honestly I would love to believe is the accurate version. lol
Does the mormon thing I mention in my article make sense to you based on your own personal experience in these cults.?
When you accepted Jesus Christ into your life that is when you were born again. What happened a year later that you think you were born again (after accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour 1 year prior)?
What advanced training seminar did you attend? Did you know that deliverance from these things is as simple as repenting to Jesus Christ? Don’t need to attend workshops :)
Does your wife still have visions?
The name Jehovah? Do you really think that is an appropriate name for God or a false name? see here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/13/there-is-no-god-like-jehovah/
Reply to Deborah. Firstly in answer to your first question. Have you seen the giant human skeletons that have been found in various parts of the World? The lastest are photo’s from Greece and make modern man look like lilliput men? The scripture in Jude talks about these angels forsaking their heavenly dwellings and committing acts that were abnormal, like Homosexulity. Even Man can now create DNA, so I do not put anything past these evil angels.
I am not sure what you mean about the Mormon thing. JWs are totally different to Mormons.
We went to a seminar a year after we were saved. I did not say we were ‘saved again’ I meant we realised what a nasty link we had to the Freemasons, because of being in the WT cult.
We do not accept that getting saved alone can deliver us from the effects of things such as trauma and links to satanistic things when we are young. It is obvious that even as Christians we can still be affected by events that took place when we were young and even older. That is why Paul said we have a war not against flesh and blood, but against the pricipalities of darkness. Peter also warned that satan is like a Lion seeking to devour us.
I know there is no longer any condemnation whilst we are in Christ Romans 8:1, but it is not Yeshua who condemns us, but satan accuses the saints day and night Revelation 12.
Yes Christine still gets visions and her last powerful one was of a mighty hand & arm appearing out of the heavens and what seemed like ants being sucked up into the hand. She said that she could not make out what they were and the Lord brought the arm closer and it was people going up. After a while the arm started to move away and when she looked down the people were turning grey and were waving to get taken up, but the arm went back into the heavens.
By the way the site I mentioned is not our site, but has been set up to attract JWs and Mormons to it, so that they can read the stuff and hopefully get set free.
I do not personally like the name Jehovah as it has Roman Catholic connections, but their Jehovah is false in any case. There is no J in Hebrew or Greek. I prefer the name Yahweh and Yeshua for Jesus Christ.
Blessings
David
I have just had a quick look through the article on Jehovah and tend to agree with what is written. In my unearthing of Freemasonry teachings and various degree’s, it is quite obvious that the name is used by these satanists as a password into the higher levels of the demonic Masonic degree’s.
The name is also combined with Baal and Osiris to form Jah Bu Lon which is the satanic name of God to the Masons.
So the name Jehovah is no longer a nice name as far as I am concerned and makes me cringe when I now hear it spoken out.
Thank God for Yeshua our Lord and King
Blessings
David
Pastor David,
I would be very careful with the dreams and visions. Lately I have heard of women having dreams they assume are prophetic. No disrespect intended, but I have seen folks get involved in this area, place too much emephasis on it and get deceived.
Hello All,
JUst this past week I had a quite heated discussion with a friend, about whether or not we should be “naming and shaming” as she put it. She said her problem with people calling people false teachers or false prophets, is that it’s like brothers fighting, which is not really the case, because the fact that these people preach and teach untruths, is evidence that they are probably not brothers in the Lord.
I feel that there needs to be a caveat here though, because there are some who are saved, but are in the process of being deceived, which will end in their apostasy if someone doesn’t get their attention and get them to be Bereans as they should have been doing, searching the scriptures to check all things.
(Anyone who doesn’t believe true believers can be deceived to such a point will have to explain to me why Jesus and every writer of every book in the New Testament warns against deception and deceivers. If we can’t be deceived to the point of losing our salvation, then all such warnings are pointless, because they are warning us against something that can never happen. I don’t believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit are in the business of wasting time and effort warning us of something that can’t ever happen.)
There are others, such as Rick Warren, et al, who are actually either apostate, or so deceived they are incapable of hearing the Truth. Either way they are NOT brethren.
I have spent a week thinking and praying and reading, seeking a way of getting the message across (no, MY message, not E. Peterson’s blasphemous tome), and the Lord showed me something, which shows absolutely a logical reason why we MUST speak out and identify false teachers, preachers, and prophets, etc. I have written a statement, then a logical series of questions:-
1. In many places in scripture these false ones are called ‘Wolves’ (usually in sheep’s clothing).
2. What do wolves do to sheep and why would they dress themselves in sheep’s clothing?
3. What are shepherds supposed to do if and when they discover a wolf in amongst the flock (with a fleecy overcoat or otherwise)?
4. How much consideration should the shepherd give the wolf, if any?
5. If the shepherd does NOT take the appropriate action, what does God’s Word say of him?
Let’s answer the questions and see where we end up:-
2. Wolves eat sheep and the fleece cloak is to allow them to get close enough to do so in peace.
3. Kill or drive off the wolf (or wolves)
4. According to this illustration, NONE. ( Of course there MAY be some hope of converting the wolf, but that would be way down the list of priorities. The sheep and their safety come first)
5. God calls shepherds who allow harm of any sort to come to the flock; “Hirelings”, and has very harsh things to say to them.
There are just a few more things that can be said here, it is loving to hear or see someone heading off the path of doctrinal purity and say nothing because that would be ‘judgemental’?
There are two aspects to this; firstly, the preacher who is straying into heresy needs someone to pull him back onto the path, before it’s too late.
Supposing you went to someone and told them that you had made some bad choices and landed in a fix and they turned ’round and said; “Well I knew that this would be the end result of your choices, way back when.” Would you say; “Thankyou so much for being so caring and non-judgemental!”, or would you not say; “Why on earth didn’t you TELL me I was heading for trouble?”
Then there are the members of the congregation, who are being led astray by their deceptive/deceived pastor.
If a friend came to you and said that they’d been conned out of all their money and you said; “Well I knew that guy was a crook from the get-go.” I’m betting your friendship would take a pretty big nosedive!
In fact, I don’t think they’d regard you as any sort of friend!
Nobody likes to be the bearer of bad news. Also, nobody likes to be the one to have to tell another person they have made mistakes in their life, but these are vitally important requirements for a Christian.
I have deliberately NOT put in any texts, because I believe that in this instance, it’s better that you (whoever you may be), look up ALL the relevant scriptures yourselves. I find that I learn more from the Lord when I have to dig for the texts on a subject myself.
God bless,
Alan.
“If you look at top of the artilce it says so. You can also do your own research on this.”
If you don’t mind, I’d really like a specific quote showing where he has done “Bible code divination”. I’m willing to bet you won’t find one because to the best of my knowledge, he has never done it. I HAVE “done my own research”…I’ve listened to well over 600 hours of his audio materials and have read 5 or 6 books written by either him or his wife. The only time he has ever talked about Bible codes in any way, shape, or form has been to show that the Scripture is provably designed in ways that can’t be accidental and in ways that can’t be replicated by human (or even computer) means…therefore this is evidence that they must be directly inspired by God. He has never used Bible codes for any doctrinal purpose and he certainly hasn’t used them for any kind of divination. In fact, he speaks aggressively against much of the “Bible code nonsense”…especially the stuff that tries to use them for divination or other forms of predicting the future. He makes it very clear that there is a ton of dangerous nonsense that has been written about Bible codes in that context and that we as Christians shouldn’t be involved in that stuff. I’d be happy to proven wrong if you can provide me with a direct quote from any of his materials rather than second-hand libel by others (that also don’t provide any evidence for their claims.) Please note that I’m not saying that you are being libelous, but rather those that you are quoting.
It also seems that you haven’t really done much research on his book Alien Encounters since it has absolutely nothing to do with an “Occult fascination with UFOs” as you claim. It is written to appeal to New Age types and it proves that UFOs aren’t alien, but rather are demonic. It was written during the height of UFO-mania in the 90s (Independence Day, Men in Black, X-Files, Taken, etc were all very big at the time) as a way to counter all the nonsense from a Biblical Christian perspective. If you would take the time to read just a few of the reviews on Amazon, you would see a number of people that were upset because they got several chapters into the book before realizing that it was “pushing a Christian ‘agenda’”…in other words, it is designed to reach New Agers who DO have an “Occult fascination with UFOs.”
I’d highly recommend that you “do your own research on this” rather than taking what others have written about Missler as unquestionably valid. I’d also politely recommend that you please be a little more careful before accusing the brethren in the future.
In Christ,
Ron
Alan,
Thanks for your post. I have been wrestling with this issue for some time. I have always been taught once saved always saved, but I do no see that taught strait out in the Word. You have to make inferences. Like you said, God is always warning about deception and warning not to deny Him. If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father.
I was in Hebrews this morning and the fact that Essau sold his birthright really stuck out to me. How is that possible to sell your birthright? He gave up his rights as a firstborn son. So people will say, how can you become unborn, once you have been born again. I can’t explain it either, but then how could Essau sell his birthright? Also, how can someone deny Christ if they never knew Him.
The bottom line for me is that no one “loses” their salvation, they despise their birthright and the result is that they lose their inheritance. They don’t value the promises that are found only by faith in Christ and turn exchange their birthright for other things.
We think that Essau was so silly to trade his precious birthright for some stew, but he was hungry. Many are hungry for power, wealth, influence, or just comfort and they value those things more than the riches that are found only in Christ.
I am not saying that you will go back and forth saved, then unsaved, then saved again. It is not how much we sin or how many times, but only that we continue trusting in Christ for forgiveness of our sin. If you continue in unrepentant sin, you will come to a point that you will turn away from God, and once you reach this point, you will never come back. We don’t know how long this process might take, but we must stay walkng close to the Lord so as not to find out, trusting in his mighty power to keep us afe from the enemy of our souls.
If you were walking along a path next to a cliff, the wise person would stay as far away as possible, the foolish person would try to walk as close to the edge without falling off. In other words this is why it is so important to humble ourselves constantly and at the first indication of sin, to repent and turn to Christ for strength to resist temptation. Willful sin, will lead to apostasy.
Yes I know exactly what you mean. Christine did not ask for visions and in fact when we were WT adherents we did not accept any of the gifts were from God. We were cessationists as we now know them as.
Chris got her first vision just like a DVD being played before her and it was of a Watchtower on a hill and suddenly cracks started to appear in it and then stones started rolling out. Then she noticed a very bright yellowish light shining right down into the top of the tower and the light was shining out of the cracks and from where the stones had rolled out of.
That was prophetic and now we see many JWs coming out and the Lord is shining his light into a dark satanic place.
Also the only reason we now live in Cyprus, is because of visions that she had, which showed a tunnel, red earth, fast straight road, driving on the left hand side, like we did in the UK. She saw Cedar tree’s and Sandstone Villa’s and complexes.
Also she detested Cyprus when we first came in 1995, so it definately was not because she liked the place. We also have 2 daughters and the oldest had been diagnosed with Lung Lymphoma only a year before. We also have 5 grandkids.
Chris never wanted to emigrate either. However I saw an advert with Cyprus properties advertised and that was only about 3 months after she had the visions in 2006. I was nudged to go to the Cyprus property expo even though Chris said do not even think about Cyprus.
But when I brought the brochures back, she recognised the buildings were the same as the visions.
We now live here and Chris has actually led a German woman to the Lord and some young Cypriot women now love and know the Real Jesus, instead of an icon.
So when she gets visions they are for a reason.
The Lord told us to listen to HIS voice and that is why he always gives her a scripture afterwards. The scripture that went with those visions was Isaiah 58 and it answered her every doubt whether it was from the Lord or not.
God Bless you all
David
Alan, I say a big AMEN to your comments – good words – but I would differ on one point. That of eternal security of the believer. Yes,the warnings in the Bible are for believers to not be led astray. However, I do not believe the Bible supports the premise that TRUE believers will lose their salvation for being deceived.
We did not earn our salvation and we cannot maintain or keep it. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Believers who stray either into sin or false doctrine don’t get off scott-free. There are consequences. Children of God are chastened and there will be a loss of rewards and tears at the Bema Seat.
When Christ saved us He knew all of actions from birth to death and He still received us into the Beloved. The Church parallels with God and Israel. Israel was disobedient but God has not abandoned them. He will keep His covenant with Israel and He will keep the New Covenant with each and every TRUE believer whom He has SEALED unto redemption. We didn’t deserve redemption and we don’t deserve eternal life – it is only by God’s unmerited favor – the ultimate grace that we are saved. Only God knows the heart of everyone who is deceived or has fallen into sin – whether or not they are sealed. We only see the exterior.
I have seen so many who are not assured of their salvation that they live in fear of crossing that imaginary line that they don’t live for God.
Thank you brother for your exhortations and defense of the truth!
Ron
Can I gently smack you over the head with a rolled up newspaper? http://www.khouse.org/topical_bible_study/biblecodes/ That took me all of 3 seconds to google for. I can only imagine how difficult it is for you too open your bible.
Ron
Oh by the way: Please read all comments under this section, especially the one where Dave Hunt has personally questioned Chuck and his wife on their new book which totally undermines what the bible says.
But besides all that… he is linking the earth via satellite which IS THE MAIN POINT OF THIS ARTICLE and is happy to be supported by the UN; a LUCIFERIAN organisation, which he knows fully what they are about.
Love your comment that his books on UFO’s are “designed to reach New Agers who DO have an “Occult fascination with UFOs.” hahaha yeah, nice try. Maybe Chuck should read his own book designed to reach occultist who partner with the UN, who earlier personally funded the first microchip to be made, and will have you satellite linked sooner than you can ‘I won’t take the chip, Chuck’.
PS, I also POLITELY recommend you be more careful before judging me. ok? so glad we understand each other.
David
When exactly did your wife get her first vision? Before or after you attened that place (sorry I can’t remember what you called it) where you renounced the JW stuff.
Alan
Yip, I agree with BL. We had a wholeeeeeee discussion on eternal security over here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/05/03/eternal-security-genuinely-saved-always-saved/
The first question that has to be asked when it comes to this is: Is the person saved to start off with?. Many say they are saved, but it’s just a label – so yes they can lose it cos they never had it in the first place. But once you are really saved, you are secure. If you do sin, you will suffer the consequences oh yes, AND God will bring you back, oh yes.
I must add this also, something I never said before. When as a young Christian, we stumble and the lessons we learn are tough ones, and we are convited by the Holy Spirit and we always repent (BECAUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT ABIDES IN US). As we grow and learn we will stumble less and less. We will never be perfect but our faith and love for Jesus strengthens and nothing, no one will pluck you from His hand.
Wow, I go out of my way to make sure my questions and comments come across as respectfully as possible and to make sure that I’m not being rude or accusatory…in response I get comments like “I can only imagine how difficult it is for you to open your Bible” and told that I’m judging you. Alrighty then. Talk about judgments and making assumptions. Have a nice day.
In Christ,
Ron
P.S. – By the way, I still don’t see anything related to “divination” in that link that it took you 3 seconds to find on Google.
Ron
No 1) The bible code IS divination. If it was biblical the Rabbi that found it via use of computers would have dropped to his knees and be born again. So would the atheist who wrote the first book on the Bible Code. Last I checked he is still an atheist. So much for the Bible Code. I do however know the Bible, the Word of God (written in plain language, no hidden meanings or secrets gets people saved left, right and centre.
No 2) You said, “I’d also politely recommend that you please be a little more careful before accusing the brethren in the future.” So you did accuse me. But worst is, who in the bible is mentioned as the accuser of brethren? Maybe next time word your sentences a little differently so that it sounds like you are not calling me Satan.
If you can dish out the judgement and accuse me then you should be able to take it eh?