Jacob Prasch – Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.

Jacob Prasch

One of Satan’s greatest lies is to try and convince you that there are different types of Calvinists, that being the moderate Calvinist and then the hyper Calvinist.  It is a load of nonsense.  All Calvinists are Calvinists who follow a doctrine compiled by demons and their pope is John Calvin a murderer of men, women and children.

Moriel Ministries says,

“While Moriel and Jacob Prasch are not Calvinistic and do not accept unconditional “Once Saved Always Saved” (as neither did John Wesley), a distinction must be made between moderate Calvinists and extreme ones.  While we do not agree with John MacArthur on a few issues (his interpretation of eternal security and Cessationism), most of his ministry is otherwise very good.”  [Emphasis added] —http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/church-issues/aberrational-theology/dan-corner

So Jacob Prasch believes in the 5 points of Calvinism is seems as he only has a problem with his “interpretation of eternal security and Cessationism”.  Jacob Prasch and those at Moriel Ministries love to talk out both sides of their mouth.  They say they are not Calvinists, but they support the doctrine of Calvinism (excluding one or 2 issues) and they support preachers of Calvinism.  For instance Jacob Prasch and Moriel Ministries often quote George Whitefield a Calvinist.

When it comes to understanding TULIP.  “It is necessary to note, moreover, that the Five Points of Calvinism are understood by many to be an interrelated, harmonious, self-contained system; thus, rejecting one point is tantamount to rejecting every point, and the falsity of one point falsifies the whole system.”[1] [Emphasis added]     You can’t be a 3 or 4 point Calvinist – there is no such thing, and anyone who says they are does not understand the doctrine of Calvinism.

Let’s look at the following individuals and see if they are moderate Calvinists, hyper Calvinists or just plain CALVINISTS who follow a doctrine of demons.  All these individuals believe the following:  Mark Driscoll, R C Sproul, Albert Mohler, Robert Morey, George Whitefield, Ray Comfort, Paul Washer, John Piper,  J C Ryle, Charles Spurgeon, John MacArthur, James White, Don Fortner….etc

  1.  Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
    • Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not–indeed he cannot–choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ–it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation–it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.
  2. Unconditional Election
    • God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
  3.  Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
    • Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
  4. Irresistible Grace
    • In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
  5. Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Thomas Lessing says:

If God is the essence of love, which of course He is, then the slightest misrepresentation of his love cannot possibly be called the truth. Both gentlemen, Paul Washer and John MacArthur, believe that Jesus did not die for everyone. Paul Washer is a wee bit more subtle in his approach to this particular “truth” and never says outrightly “Jesus did not die for everyone” but cunningly says in many of his videos on YouTube: “Jesus died the death OF HIS PEOPLE.” Who are his people? Well, of course, the elect only are God’s people. This is the kind of blasphemy John MacArthur and many other Calvinists spew out on their congregants and on the internet.

Let’s have a look and see how good John MacArthur’s ministry is along with some other Calvinists mentioned above:


Is it true that Jesus Christ was crucified only for his people (a select few chosen ones)? If it is true, it must be from God. If not, then it is a lie and all lies emanate from the father of all lies, Satan himself. Calvinism is arguably one of the most dangerous doctrines on our planet. Everything they say about the doctrines of sanctification and living a life of holiness and absolute obedience to God is commendable but as soon as it comes to the very core of God’s will for all men, the salvation of their souls, they have it sorely wrong which borders dangerously on blasphemy.

The Calvinists’ view that God only loves the elect and that consequently Jesus only died for them, is nothing short of a partial denial of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. What else could it be than a partial denial of Jesus Christ’s incarnation when He, according to the Calvinists’ doctrines, did not die for the non-elect? If He was not crucified for the non-elect, it follows that He was not born (incarnated) for them either.

What does the Bible say about those who deny the incarnation of Jesus Christ, albeit a partial or complete denial?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)

Some history about the murderous John Calvin:


See the following articles on John MacArthur:

That John MacArthur DENIES the precious blood of Jesus Christ and denies that it was applied in heaven: John MacArthur – Blood of Jesus Liquid / Never applied in Heaven

John Mac Arthur also believes in Lordship Salvation (Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse) which is a works based salvation.  He also says that not all elected Calvinists are promised a place in heaven as it depends on how holy they are throughout their life – this sounds incredibly similar to Islam. (http://www.soulwinning.info/wolves/macarthur-confusing.htm) and there is so much more.

John MacArthur also says you can take the Mark of the Beast, repent and still be saved:  John MacArthur – Take Mark of the Beast and Still be Saved and  Grace to You and John MacArthur – Take Mark of the Beast – No Recant

See latest article here on John MacArthurs Orbital Hermeneutics


[1]  Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932), 59.

[2]  Romans: An Interpretative Outline (pp. 144-147), by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas /  Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932)

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Even “perseverance of the saints” is a false doctrine, it is lordship “salvation”. It isn’t a true doctrine. The true doctrine is the PRESERVATION of the saints. Saints might not persevere to the “level” we want, since saints are still sinners, but it is sure that the Lord will preserve saints.


Debs, we..etc have had discussions about free grace on another thread, so please post my comment where you feel it is right.

The other day I asked John Chingford what the difference is between free grace and sovereign grace. We were talking about the Ex Preacherman site and their ‘free grace’ stance. According to what I understand, they have gone to the extreme of believing that NO repentance is required for salvation.

This is where we need to be careful. Free grace actually = Sovereign grace, they are both Calvin teachings. The Ex Preacherman site criticised us, John C, in particular, of believing in Lordship Salvation. LS is the teaching that you have to CHANGE your life completely at the moment of salvation, stop all sin etc. Now seriously folks, WHO is capable of doing that? We all sin even AFTER salvation, although of course the Holy Spirit convicts us and we should hopefully repent! At new birth, we do repent in that we acknowledge our sinful state and we ask God for forgiveness. However it takes time for new Christians to understand what God requires, and let us be honest, even mature Christians battle with sin in some form.

I have been reading and studying about free and sovereign grace. As I said, it is Calvinism, as Sovereign grace is the Calvin teaching of pre-election, God’s sovereign will of choosing those who will be saved and preserved.

See how tricky this can all get? If you had asked me before now what free grace meant, I would have said that it means God’s unmerited favour toward us, and that salvation is a free gift. But now the Ex Preacherman site twists that grace to mean, salvation without a repentant heart. Do you see the difference?

I don’t believe that there is any steps up or down in Calvinism, there is no hyper-Calvinism as such, it is just an ugly, evil heresy that is being used to lead people away from biblical truth.

There are churches that refer to themselves as Reformed, well that is also just another name for Calvinism. Recently I found a site where “reformed Christians” have started a blog for those who have left churches that are under the “Sovereign Grace”banner. They feel that they are a cult and those who have left feel they have been ‘abused’ in one way or another. I also discovered that the SGM is under investigation for child abuse.
Now SGM churches are known for homeschooling and also for being very ‘protective’ of their children and youth. Without going into detail, I know for a fact that children are under very strict control. Most daughters will have little chance of advanced education. They will ‘choose’ husbands from their church body and they believe that ALL women are called to be wives and mothers, end of conversation.


Can I ask you a question….why do you not proclaim the gospel. The Bible shows that one of the signs of a true believer is the love for the gospel. I do not see it on your website. All I see is a hatred that is channeled through discernment. Did somebody do something to you? Was it a Calvinist? If so, you should forgive your brother! Jesus said if you do not forgive someone else, he will not forgive you.

Your use of 1Joh4:3 is totally out of context. The line of thinking you follow to get to that conclusion that a Calvinist deny the incarnation is abusing scripture to try and proof your point. Why is Calvinism haunting you like this?

Another question. Can a Calvinist be a born again child of God while following the TULIP system? Is it required of him to first repent of it before he will be born again?

You do not believe in once saved always saved. I assume that from your attack on that doctrine. How will you explain to someone he can be sure of his salvation? There will always be a warning that you can be lost. Therefore you cannot tell any new believer that he can be sure of his salvation, because with that you have to warn him that he can be lost. What salvation is that? A poor new believer start his journey in fear because he can get lost!

Who convict you of sin? If it is the Holy Spirit, can you please explain to me how you manage to manipulate the Holy Spirit to convict you when you use your free will to command Him to convict you of sin.

I will appreciate your answers to my concerns.

Martin Horan

No matter which way I look at Calvin’s teaching, it strikes me as blasphemous. It’s not only unbiblical but it’s illogical. It contradicts itself. Dave Hunt’s “What Love is this?” is the definitive book on Calvinism. It is a virtual masterpiece on the subject.
Dave has written another book worth reading called “A Calvinist’s Honest Doubts.” “Honest Doubts” and George L. Bryson’s “The Five Points of Calvinism” are two smaller books but they sum up all the basics of Calvinist doctrine and they are excellent books for those who don’t have the time or inclination to go into Calvinism as a deeper study. The comments an analysis in all three of these books are irrefutable. However, that won’t stop Calvinsits arguing against them.
Satan himself is a wishful thinker [Rev 12:12] but he plans to go out with his guns blazing [ibid] denying what he knows to be true. Calvinists–I guess like people in all cults–have a similar mindset.


Continuing on..

It is only right to teach our children about the Lord, but it is not right to give a child or young adult a very small margin of choice about their own lives. It is wonderful when a young woman finds a true Christian husband, but again, I do not believe that young women should be made to feel or believe, that marriage and children are the ONLY course they can take in life. This is very much a ”sovereign grace” view.

Going back to what I was saying previously. So here you have Reformed/Calvinists leaving the ‘Sovereign Grace’ umbrella because they feel SG is a cult or cult-like. What a pity these people cannot see that they are already being led down the garden path with the reformed doctrines of demons.

Many well meaning, but uninformed Christians believe that Charles Spurgeon was a great teacher and a great man of God. I cannot judge the man’s heart, but he was most definitely a Calvinist. Yet not all reformed / Calvinists, seem to have the same views on ‘free grace’.
http://www.libcfl.com/articles/free.htm This link proves that Spurgeon was a Calvinist, and the article ‘explains’ the ‘difference’ between free WILL and free GRACE, according to Calvinists.

Do you see how subtly they change and twist God’s word? People are drawn into this web of lies and are basically brainwashed into believing a set of unbiblical steps to salvation and Christian life.

Do you know that Billy Graham, apart from being ecumenical, is in fact a Calvinist?

Many of the so-called ‘great men of God’, have in fact, . followed Calvinism.

Just to show how twisted these false teachings are, we have the Ex Preacherman ‘crowd’ attacking us for pushing Lordship Salvation (which is not true, and in fact LS is a Calvin doctrine)..yet they are Calvinists?? So as I have already pointed out, ExPman followers are saying that a)sinners need not be repentant at salvation, and, b)they say that a person does not need to change completely at re-birth or the point of salvation. Now that is much more than free grace, that is one free ride! Are you confused? I know I am!!

I can tell you that personally I’m fed up with all these labels and titles and steps to salvation that these liars hide behind! Let us call them what they are, and not fall into their trap.

Truthful Conversation

This is a very good link regarding Calvinism questions and answers too. I see Debs that you had already posted something from this site, but I only found this last night and I was not aware your post was from this site. Great minds think alike eh? ha ha


John Chingford

Hi Truthful Conversations

re comments 3 and 6

As far as I can tell, Free grace (like us) are NOT calvinist but correctly believe in OSAS according TO BIBLICAL (not Calvinist) teaching.

Sovereign grace is DEFINITELY a Calvinist teaching but I believe free grace is a direct opposition to the false legalistic Sovereign grace position.

However, Free grace has gone way too much to the other extreme in opposing legalism by verging on licentiousness – NON REPENTANCE teachings. If they do not encourage repentance or “Godly sorrow” for sins then the obvious conclusion/result will be that they can keep sinning without condemnation.

The fact of the matter is that there MUST be repentance as part of the salvation process – possibly simultaneously because Jesus said “the Holy Spirit will convict the world concerning righteousness, sin and judgemenr”. The Holy Spirit shows us that we are sinners who need salvation from sin and that Jesus is the ONLY way to receive forgiveness and be freed from guilt and condemnation and is the ONLY one who can change us into children of God.

I would ask “why would the Holy Spirit convict us of sin if all that is required is a “change of mind” or a “change in thinking”. The scriptures teach a GENERAL rule which applies BEFORE and AFTER salvation “Godly sorrow leads to repentance“. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin which creates in our hearts and minds a Godly sorrow about our sinful condition which THEN leads to TRUE repentance which includes not JUST a change of mind but also a change deep within our soul’s.

FREE grace reject everything I have just discussed in the last paragraph. Instead all they ever do ALL DAY LONG is split hairs, nit pick, fault find over words and generally waste time being small minded and pulling us apart over our mere terminology. For example, we say “invite Jesus in to your heart” they say “invite Him into your soul” Is there any REAL difference?

Is it worth them setting up yet another new denomination and isolating themselves from us by arguing their point to ridiculous lengths? Basically, they are a real contentious, divisive group. They spent just a few days on our site, but during that time REALLY caused confusion and needless irritations telling lies about us telling everyone we were LS adherants, when in fact (to the most part) our teaching is not that much disimilar to theirs apart from the “repentance” issue where we have grave concerns about the implications of their teaching and its possible repercussions to the unsaved or even to believers.

Truthful Conversation

I have already sent this link to Debs, but I would like to share it with all the readers.

More proof that Charles Spurgeon was a Calvinist, and also proof that JI Packer was a Calvinist. This Calvinistic site/article also explains more rotten Calvinistic doctrine!

Read JI Packer’s comment, what conclusion do you come to regarding so-called ‘free grace’? Would you say he is promoting Lordship Salvation? It boggles my mind! : )


Expreacherman is not a calvinist site, and they are hated by calvinists. Free grace does not equal calvinism. The two are diametrically opposed.


P.S. I am a free grace advocate, because I believe that is what the Bible teaches.

John Chingford

Just following on from my last comment.

My understanding of the “free grace” doctrine is a it is portrayed by the free grace movement. I have now discovered, that Calvinist churches sometimes label their churches as “free grace”. However, their free grace churches (Calvinist doctrine) is different from the free grace “MOVEMENT”. In which the EX Preacherman site is one of them.


Just who do YOU support? You seem to bash EVERYONE, who exactly in YOUR little “perfect all knowing Bible teacher” world do you support? And FYI, by deleting comments, as I have browsed on here, you make yourself look like you are hiding something, and you make yourself look like a coward. Man up!

John Chingford

re comment 14:

Debs, AMEN Sister!

Leigh All of the regulars on this site re echo what Debs has said.

WE FOLLOW NO OTHER MAN THAN JESUS P E R I O D !!!!!!! We are not like the Corinthian church nor like you JP disciples who follow men.

1 Cor 1:12-13:
“One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?”

Paul is exposing the Corinthians (like you) as those who are being devisive because they follow men and not Jesus. Paul is using some sarcasm here (as he often does in his letters – especially to the Corinthians) “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?” to highlight how RIDICULOUS it is to follow men.

Truthful Conversation

Hmmm… I will go back and check, but I did alot of reading and comparing, and I still think free grace equals sovereign grace. It is a slippery slope methinks…

Truthful Conversation

My apologies to ExPreacherman, I see they are not Calvinists. Sorry Abe. I did alot of reading that day and I obvioulsy got confused.

This is why I hate all these titles and compartmentalising!


Abe # 10 & 11

You believe in “free grace”? In other words that repentance has no place in coming to Christ? Biblical repentance is NOT Lordship salvation! Free grace leads to false conversions and that is a grave danger.

I hope you have not fallen into the trap over there at expreacherman. Expreacherman is against Lordship salvation but have taken it to a ridiculous extreme.


@ John Chingford:
I am talking about as far as supporting ministries. My GOSH you people really DO twist people’s words, anyone with half a brain would understand what I meant, following Jesus is a NO BRAINER it goes without saying, but yet again, you people find fault in everything! I bet if someone says the sky looks nice, you people would accuse them of sky worship. SO SAD you people, so sad…GOOD LUCK!


On comment 7 of mine above, I posted a link about repentance and Lordship salvation. This is part of that article; Not widely known is the fact that many in “Free Grace” circles are also Calvinists who just happen to reject “perseverance.” It’s interesting to consider that Lordship proponents might be the legalistic arm of Calvinism like John Calvin, while “Free Grace” proponents are the more lenient branch like Martin Luther. Perhaps Eddy is a Calvinist who rejects Lordship and is upset that Mark Cahill both rejects Calvinism and promotes repentance?


Redeemed, that is your opinion. But repentance is metanoia in Greek, which means a change of mind. It doesn’t always warrant a change of conduct. Context would determine that. The word repentance doesn’t appear even once in the whole Book of John. Are you then saying that a person that was converted by the Book of John, was a “false convert”? Please. I am so tired of the debate with people that say “you’d better clean up your life to be saved!” and they themselves are still sinners. If you had to be “sinless enough” to be saved, then you might not be saved, since you have no idea if you are “sinless enough” or what the measure should even be. This is a boring debate and I’ve said my peace about it and I’m done with it.


@ John re #8 – I agree with all you said and as you say about the Free Grace missionaries…”They spent just a few days on our site, but during that time REALLY caused confusion” …without a doubt. If that is any example of the divisive fruit that free grace brings to the table, I’ll pass.

I even chide myself for being a bit too prickly sometimes, but lies…deceptions…they don’t mesh with holiness.

Hebrews 12:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Holiness…this is a requirement, not a suggestion!!

Truth is also a straight path that is not caught…but taught!!

John Chingford

Hi Debs

Abe is yet another who frequents the EX Preacherman site. It does seem that they believe they have an assignment to CORRECT US.

Abe, Have you read my warnings of the Ex Preacherman site? If you haven’t seen it, please read it by clicking on these links:




In that last link I said “FREE grace reject everything I have just discussed in the last paragraph. Instead all they ever do ALL DAY LONG is split hairs, nit pick, fault find over words and generally waste time being small minded and pulling us apart over our mere terminology. For example, we say “invite Jesus in to your heart” they say “invite Him into your soul” Is there any REAL difference?”

The above quote primarily refers to the EX Preacherman site. They (ExP) then tell everyone lies about what we preach by totally twisting our words, splitting hairs!

They KEEP ON SAYING that we preach “repentance means turning from your sins”. We ARE NOT and HAVE NOT said those things. We have acknowledged that repentance means a change of mind. Our dispute is what happens beforehand to bring us to that change of mind? The Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin BEFOREHAND!!! This leads to a Godly sorrow (look at those who were saved on the Day of Pentecost Acts 2 “they were cut to the heart”. It wasn’t just a change of mind but a conviction in their souls also.

Having a Godly sorrow and self confessing that we are sinners who need salvation from sin IS NOT turning from sin. It is <b? SIMPLY CONFESSING we are sinners and calling upon Jesus for our salvation.

Teaching that true repentance comes simultaneously with a conviction of sin is NOT Lordship Salvation teaching!!!

Why are the Ex Preacherman (and others within the “free grace movement”) so heavy handed with us over mere words? They are making a mountain out of a molehill. We may possibly be actually saying the same things but because we are not using their exact same terminology (nit picking) they accuse us falsely.

However, their elitist, self righteous attitude is so very similar to calvinist’s attitudes (lacking any real humility).

But ….. if they really don’t believe that Holy Spirit conviction of sin goes hand in hand with repentance then I have to be as bold to say that they are actually heretics because they are denying the undeniable truth in God’s word as proved over and over again throughout the Book of Acts and in the gospels.

John Chingford

Abe re comment 23:

Do you hear what you are saying? If it is true that the word “repent” does not appear in the Book of John, then it would indicate that John did not think that even a “change of mind” about who Jesus was and why He died for us, was necessary. How ludicrous is that?

If you are disputing the word “repentance” then why? Free grace do not deny that the Bible teaches repentane (a change of mind). What point are you making?

Even if you are right, then let us consider what the Book of John was focussed on.

The Book of John is a VERY clear demonstration PROVING that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and that we need to look upon Jesus for our salvation. The very clearest gospel message of being saved and born again is clearly revealed in John chapter 3 and it shows us what happened when men/women “changed their minds” about Jesus. They always came under conviction of sin (experiencing a Godly sorrow).

Just because a specific word is not mentioned DOES NOT MEAN that a book did not preach it generally. I know that you believe in the rapture, but you are using the same low down argument that “no rapture” teachers use, i.e they teach (like you are doing) that if an EXACT (English translated) word cannot be found in the translations of the original manuscripts therefore it is not scriptural – despite the fact that the WHOLE Bible teaches it.

We need to compare the Book of John with the WHOLE Bible because it is ONLY the whole Bible put together as ONE that makes it the WORD OF GOD.


Honestly, Deborah, I’m not interested in this particular debate at all. If a person can’t use something like John 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 to see the way to heaven, if they can’t rely on these basics, then we will never agree. If someone has more to add to salvation than Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2), then I’m just not interested in what they have to say about it, no matter what they say.


Abe. repentance is a change of mind. If it does not result in a change in behavior, it is not true repentance. It is ludicrous to say that repentance does not indicate a change in the way someone lives.

Would you please read “Except Ye Repent” by H.A. Ironside as referenced in another post or you can plug it into a search engine. It is oen of the best expositions on the topic that I have ever seen.

Contrary to you, I think this topic is vital and worthy of discussion. It is essential to the faith to get it right.

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