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The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

7DTW AuthorIcon75 The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISMS Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

ElectionOCAC SalvationOSAS The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISMS Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between Calvinism’s version of ‘once saved, always saved’ and the BIBLICAL version of Assurance of Salvation.

You see, Calvinists believe you are CHOSEN by God before you are born, therefore you are actually ‘ONCE CHOSEN, ALWAYS CHOSEN’.  If you are Elect, you can’t become un-elect!   The Biblical version is WE HAVE FREE WILL, when you come to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you are REGENERATED;  the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you and HE SEALS YOU, and your name is written in to the book of Life.

Philippians 4:3    “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

Revelation 3:5    “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved.   In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life.   Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire

Revelation 20:15    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

In Revelation 13:8 and Revelation  21:27, we find the references to the “Lamb’s book of life”,  in which are also names of all those who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The Lamb who has been “slain from the creation of the world” has a book in which are written all those who have been redeemed by His sacrifice. They are the ones who will enter the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:10) and who will live forever in heaven with God. Since the book of life is that which records all who have eternal life through the Lamb, it’s clear that the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life are one and the same.

When the Holy Spirit comes to abide in us, he stays there foreverHe does not come and go and come and go each time you fall into some kind of sin.

John 14:16   “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever. “

The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in (Ephesians 1:13-14) where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:13-14    “13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”   

The envision of being sealed with the Spirit is one of ownership and possession. God has promised eternal life to all who are genuinely born again, and as a guarantee that He will keep His promise, He has sent the Holy Spirit to abide in the believer until the day of redemption. Kind of like making a down payment/deposit on a house or a car, God has provided all believers with a DEPOSIT on their future relationship with Him by sending the Holy Spirit to abide in them. The fact that all believers are sealed with the Spirit is also seen in (2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30).

2 Corinthians 1:22   Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”   

Ephesians 4:30  “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

NOW LOOK AT THIS – DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OLD COVENANT AND NEW COVENANT:

Now, BEFORE Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven, before the NEW COVENANT, the Holy Spirit had a “come and go” relationship with people.  The Holy Spirit indwelt King Saul, but then He departed from him:

1 Samuel 16:14  “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”

Here (1 Samuel 16:13) we read that the Holy Spirit came upon David.  But after his adultery with Bathsheba, David feared that the Holy Spirit would be taken from him.

Psalm 51:11   “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.”

In (Exodus 31:2-5) we read that the the Holy Spirit filled Bezaleel to enable him to produce the items needed for the tabernacle, but this is not described as a permanent relationship.

The Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth when she heard about Mary’s conception and her baby leaped in her womb.

Luke 1:41   “And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost

But all of this changed beginning on the day of Pentecost, (Acts 2) the Holy Spirit began permanently indwelling believers.  Pentecost was the commissioning of the Christian church and the fulfillment of God’s promise to always be with us and never forsake us.

Now, understand this, while the Holy Spirit will never leave a GENUINE believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” or “grieve the Holy Spirit”

Quenching the Holy Spirit:  1 Thessalonians 5:19   “Quench not the Spirit.”

Grieving the Holy Spirit:   Ephesians 4:30   “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Sin ALWAYS has consequences in our relationship with Jesus. While our relationship with God is SECURE in Jesus Christ, UNCONFESSED SIN sin in our lives WILL hinder our relationship with God and it will quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins because God is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).   So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the reward and joy of His presence in our lives will feel far away, because sin drives a wedge between us and God and we are effectively distancing ourselves from Jesus.

As Christians SEALED by the Holy Spirit you will still sin, but if you are genuinely born again, the Holy Spirit will CHASTISE you every time you sin and you will sooner than later repent of your sins.  But there are people who PROFESS to be Christian and they do not have the Holy Spirit in then.  These are people who can speak Jesus’ name, they go to church, even have big ministries teaching people the bible and they sound so intelligent, but they have not been REGENERATEDbecause they refuse to give up their sinful ways, they refuse to pick up their cross and follow Jesus.

Luke 14:27   “Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.”

They think they can have it both ways.

2 Timothy 3:5   They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its powerSo avoid people like these.

They have bad fruit, they follow doctrines of demons, and they mingle with evil people and very easily compromise the Word of God for the sake of ‘unity’.

Satan always does twist scripture for his own advantage and tell people that at an alter call if they just pray the sinners pray they will be saved and never lose it, but God knows who is GENUINELY saved and who isn’t.  We CAN’T fool Him.  People CAN FOOL EACH OTHER into believing they are real Christians, when in fact they are not.  And how do we tell if they are not, well by the things they do and say (the fruit of the spirit)  – the words the speak/preach. But even then, sometimes we meet some ‘great pretenders’ some brilliant con-artists and it takes a long time to figure them out.

See this article as well:  Eternal Security – Genuinely Saved, Always Saved!

pixel The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISMS Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

207 comments to The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

  • Redeemed

    Deborah, someone asked that you give some solid doctrinal truth and you have certainly delivered BIG TIME.

    It seems that so many believers are confused about this point and say that the only thing they agree with in Calvinist/Reformed doctrine is the “P” in TULIP, “Perseverance of the Saints”. Thank the LORD you have exposed this destructive lie for what it is!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Yippy Yay! :)

    Shucks, this 1 point Calvinism thing compared to Once Saved Always Saved was driving me bonkers… I just had to get the message out there. Enough is Enough!

  • Truthful Conversation

    GRRRREATT ARTICLE Debs!! Very well written and simple enough for all to understand (including me).. : ) After reading this, no-one can say that they cannot see the difference between Calvinism and what the bible says about our salvation.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    TC

    >> After reading this, no-one can say that they cannot see the difference between Calvinism and what the bible says about our salvation.

    Oh I hope so. Truthful Conversation, I so really hope so.

  • Andy

    Once saved always saved is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (John 3:16). Calvinism is against the Gospel of Jesus Christ, since calvinism seeks to run right around faith in Jesus for salvation, and instead, moves to you working to “prove” you are part of the “elect”. That is not the Gospel. So the two are indeed totally different.

  • Carolyn

    Last post on this subject. Not wishing to get into a debate I will simply refer to this article by Sandy Simpson. This is what I believe to be a balanced approach to the subject and I would be in agreement with his thoughts:
    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/osas2.html

    As you said, Debs, everyone has to read the Scripture for themselves and draw their own conclusions. And sometimes it takes some time to see things from a different perspective. What we have always believed or been taught is not necessarily right. All we can ask for is that people ask the Holy Spirit for his wisdom.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    >> This is what I believe to be a balanced approach to the subject and I would be in agreement with his thoughts:
    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/osas2.html

    Balanced? Um why are you comparing to the doctrine of Arminianism? No one here on DTW is Arminian; it is a works based salvation (Methodists follow the doctrine of Arminianism).

    You have not gone and done your OWN bible study on the matter, you read reading someone elses comparison between Calvinism (false teaching) and Arminianism (false teaching) That is far from being balanced.

  • Abe

    Calvinism and arminianism are both false. They both point you to works for salvation.

    Jesus points us to faith alone in Him for salvation (John 3:16, Romans 4:5).

  • Redeemed

    Dear sister Carolyn,

    The article to which you refer begins with this:

    It has become my considered opinion that part of the delusion of the Third Wave is facilitated, not only by certain doctrines in Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism, but also by certain doctrines of Calvinism (Once Saved Always Saved). Both doctrinal systems have fatal flaws.

    Right off the bat he indicates that he does not understand the difference between eternal security of the believer and the Calvinist doctrine of Once Chosen, Always Chosen.

    Also, please understand that no one here has EVER promoted Arminian doctrine.
    The author of the article you cite is comparing one false doctrine against another. He means well but is totally missing the salient point and not seeing for forest for the trees.

    We have to shine the light of truth of the Bible to expose false doctrine, not compare one false doctrine to another and point out partial truths in each one!

    Does this make sense to you? This is one reason why the clear truth presented in Deborah’s article is so needed in the Church today to counter the mixture of truth and error that causes confusion.

  • Carolyn

    Au contraire, Debs. I have done my own study. You weren’t there.

    We cannot leave out the whole counsel of God for our own preferences of doctrine. Our own preferences can be just that. We all have blind spots.

    If you read the last part of the “Oversimplification of the Facts”, just before the Summary in the Simspon’s article, there are Scriptures that agree with walking away from our faith. If you didn’t have faith, how could it be shipwrecked or how could we turn away from it? It’s a big leap of presumption to say that people who profess to have faith never had it. The Word says they did…and they have turned away….

    I do believe that we are Sealed and Assured of our Salvation if we continue in our faith. I have a friend who attended Bible College, became angry and today lives a life of total debauchery and still believes he’s a Christian with a few (well many) problems. You would say he never was a Christian. I would say he has departed from the faith by his own free will. And since he refuses to repent of his sin, alcoholism, cursing, mocking, etc. I am not his judge. His own sin will testify against him…unless he repents. He’s 63 now and time is not on his side.

    For myself, I am grateful for God’s grace and assurance of Salvation. I am grateful for the Holy Spirit’s seal, his promise of eternal life, his Presence, his life as I continue in the vine. But I cannot take Him for granted. Like any relationship, it doesn’t follow that my own choice is now dead. I could at some point, decide that the narrow way of Christ is no longer for me. If I refuse to abide in the vine, I will disconnect myself from the source of nutrients, I will wither and die. And I will be cast out. That’s Scriptural. If the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I choose to listen and repent, I will be saved. That’s also Scriptural.

    We may not agree on this point, but we are still sisters in Christ and I still love you and those who blog here for the glory of God. We will not agree on everything, to be sure, but I enjoy the discussion. Keep up the good work, Debs. Your blog is a worthwhile, Bible based defence against false teaching. Thank you!

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, you have disagreed agreeably.

    When one is saved one is SEALED unto redemption. We are not akin to the situation where one makes a purchase (Jesus paid the price for us) and then
    when it doesn’t work one returns it for a refund. In God’s economy it doesn’t work that way.

    We don’t have the power to keep ourselves once we are saved and sealed. God cannot reject Himself and that is exactly what would happen if a person can walk away. 2 Timothy 2:13 speaks to this.

    And where is that imaginary line one must cross to commit enough sin to go past the point of no return? How many times must a person sin in order to lose their salvation?

    God chastens His own. If your friend was GENUINELY saved, then she will soon be chastened by the Lord as to her lifestyle. If a professing Christian sins, and is never chastened, then we can safely assume that the profession was not genuine. In extra cases, there is the sin unto death when God may prematurely call the person home.

    Think about this. God knows the beginning from the end. So He was fully aware of ALL the sins each person will commit at the time of their conversion. With that in mind, He is the only One who has the power to keep us.

    I hope this is helpful!

  • Carolyn

    We here in North America are just about on our way to bed when you are just getting started. So I thought I would add a bit more to my comment. I actually have studied the subject of OSAS out quite a bit because of my friend mentioned above.

    Two years ago when he lost his house, his job and his car, he stayed with us for nine months. During that time we got to know him very well. The first 3 months, I drove him to the liquor store every day for his case of 15 beer and pack of cigarettes. Funny how he didn’t have money for food…but he was able to support his habits. I had many talks with him about his faith…and I was most baffled at how he could still consider himself a Christian with his lifestyle. He talked the talk, however, and so I observed. But then things got ugly, he got abusive and I went to Bible study mode. In the end he cursed me out and I won’t allow him back here without some big changes. I have forgiven him, but I draw the line at abuse.

    The reason I didn’t want to get into a big discussion on OSAS is that I haven’t been on the blog much and I although I have read some of the posts about William Branham, Kathryn Khulman, etc because that was my background…I wasn’t aware of any deep doctrinal differences. I just landed here Sunday as I was surfing and was genuinely sad for the abuse that you were suffering through, Deborah. So I had no premedited ideas of straightening anyone out. I will probably just do some listening for the time being and fade back into the shadows. But I did want you to know that my prayers are with you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Righty..lets have a look at these verses…under the heading OVERSIMPLIFICATION OF THE FACTS!

    God will see to it that those who continue to believe will persevere. But they must continue in “His kindness” or be cut off.

    Ro 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

    Ok, please Carolyn I ask that you read this and understand why people can’t take a scripture and use it out of CONTEXT like Sandy Simpson has.

    Romans 11:16-24
    16 If the first portion of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.
    17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root,
    18 do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
    19 Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
    20 Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear!
    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.
    22 Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God – harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23 And even they – if they do not continue in their unbelief – will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
    24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?

    This is talking about Israel and the Gentiles. “16 If the first portion of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.” If the regenerated remnant in Israel is to be a people set apart to God, so eventually will the whole nation to which they belong. And if the root of the covenant olive tree be holy (that is Abraham), so are all those who are really linked with him by faith (because Abraham was Holy because of his faith in God).

    Israelies are the natural branches in the olive tree, by birth but not by grace – who were broken off. And in order that the promises of God to Abraham should not fail, “In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed,” the branches of the wild olive tree (that now being the Gentiles were grafted in among the remnant of Israel) thus Jew and Gentile believing together, partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

    But there is a danger and that is, should the Gentiles rest on mere outward privileges, all the while linked with the children of the promise (Israel), should the Gentiles fail to appreciate the gospel of God, and so prove unreal. In that case, God will have to deal with the Gentiles as He had dealt with the Jews. And so we get this WARNING: “Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.”

    Some might say, “Yes, but the natural branches were broken off, that I, a Gentile, might be grafted in.” But the answer is clear and the warning is distict: “They were broken off because of unbelief, and thou standest by faith.” Therefore the admonition, “Be not high-minded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.”

    Do we need to stop to ask whether the Gentiles have valued their privileges? Is it not clear to every spiritually-minded person that observes this situation that the conditions in Christendom today are as bad today as they ever were in Israel? Do you not see apostasy from the truth everywhere? The features of the last days, as depicted in 2 Timothy 3, manifesting wherever. Are we not warned that the time is near when the unfruitful branches will be torn out of the olive tree (Gentiles) and the natural branches (Israel), at last turning back to God, will be grafted in again to their own olive tree?

    In these dispensational ways we see manifested the goodness and severity of God. Severity on those who fell, who refused to believe the testimony. But goodness toward unworthy Gentiles; this goodness only continued toward them if they (as a whole) continue to appreciate it, otherwise they, too, shall be cut off. That day of the cutting off is near at hand, when the true Church having been caught up to be with the Lord (Rapture), judgment will be meted out to the earth dwellers (the start of the Tribulation), and then God will turn back in grace to Israel, if they abide not still in unbelief, and they shall be re-grafted into their own olive tree, according to the power of the God of resurrection.

    Now you say you studies these scriptures? You say I was not there, you are right, I was not :)

    Ok that was just one verse I will look at the others just now… I need to do something urgently…

  • Carolyn

    Colossians 1:23
    if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    1 John 2:24
    Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    Debs…how do you read these two verses? “if you continue” to me is conditional upon us continuing in the faith, the vine, in the way, in the Son….

    My friend started out in the faith but wandered off when he became angry with another pastor. Some things became more important than obedience and submission

  • Carolyn

    Sorry Redeemed. Just saw your comment now. In reply to this:

    We don’t have the power to keep ourselves once we are saved and sealed. God cannot reject Himself and that is exactly what would happen if a person can walk away. 2 Timothy 2:13 speaks to this.

    Did my friend walk away? To me he was saved…he repented of his sin, was studying to be a pastor and so was sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Why would he walk away? Because he was angry. He became abusive to the pastor and they fell out of agreement. He says he never walked away from God, but his lifestyle says differently. Yes, he still may repent, but I have only seen a deeper hardening of his heart. I live in the real world. OSAS can be wishful thinking for those we love.

    Hebrews 12:14-16
    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
    16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

    I dunno…I see someone who let a root of bitterness shipwreck his faith and he sold his birthright for a moment of anger that turned into a lifetime…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ok the next one from under the heading OVERSIMPLIFICATION OF THE FACTS!

    Paul was confident in prayer that the Philippians would be brought to final salvation because of their perseverance and faith.

    Php 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

    *bangs head on desk* lol, this gets me when people don’t explain this verse PROPERLY.

    Philippians 1:6
    6 For I am sure of this very thing, that the one who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

    Sandy Simpson says, “Paul was confident in prayer that the Philippians would be brought to final salvation because of their perseverance and faith.” No, the apostle Paul had no doubt as to the final outcome for every true believer. He was absolutely confident that the One who had begun a good work in them would not stop until He had perfected that which He Himself had commenced. Any work that God begins, He will surely finish. (1 Sa 3:12). Much more the fact of His beginning the work is a pledge of its completion (Isa 26:12) But the final outcome would only be attained and manifested in the day of Jesus Christ.

    I’ll look at the next one…now

  • Carolyn

    Debs. I concede that Romans 11 is talking about Israel and the Gentiles(the Church)…but still the principle is the fact that there is danger in unbelief and we can be cut off because of unbelief. We must not become arrogant or over confident as though it couldn’t happen to us.

    Consider the principle in:
    John 15
    4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    If we don’t remain in him…by faith, we will wither. Our faith is a living, growing, abiding, continuing, persevering, enduring confidence and obedience in the One who saved us. If our faith (which is our attachment to the branch), is gone…what sustains our life?

    To me the whole OSAS argument hinges very securely on the word SEALED. Sealed is a promise with a condition. That’s all. It’s not holding God hostage if we become unbelieving and disobedient as the children of Israel in the wilderness. They tested God and lived with the consequences.

    He does know the end from the beginning, so he is the only one who knows our heart. And if we choose him above our self, he will bring us to our reward, regardless if we stumble or struggle for he loves us and that is reassuring.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Let me explain this first verse…

    Colossians 1:23
    if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    Colossians 1:23-25
    23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
    25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    The if with which verse 23 begins has been perplexed many who dare to accept the truth of the believer’s eternal security, But, if rightly understood, there is nothing here to disturb any sincere believer. This is not the first kind of IF, there are a number of others in the NT, all dealing with the same subject; the testing of a profession.

    In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 we read, “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”

    Here the IF is inserted in order to exercise a consciences of any who, having professed to believe the gospel, are in danger of forgetting the message, thereby proving that they have never really received the truth into their hearts in the first place. He would have them carefully examine their foundations. Many are so ready to profess Christianity and seem to do all the right things, seemingly outwardly looking like ‘people of God’, but who have never TRULY TURNED turned to the Lord in GENUINE repentance and no REGENERATION has taken place. These are the people who endure for a time but soon forget the claims of the gospel when something small triggers them to be unhappy with Christianity, or when when satanic temptations draw them away into a life of perpetual sin.

    In Hebrews 3:6 we again have another such IF. “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”

    The meaning is plain and simple. It is just not enough to PROFESS to have Christian hope. Those who are GENUINE will for sure hold fast till the end, as we also read in Hebrews 10:38-39 Endurance is the PROOF OF REALITY, IS PROOF OF GENUINE SALVATION. When the Holy Spirit indwells the soul it is lasting, and we can be 100% assured that He who hath begun a good work in any one will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ, the time when He shall come for His ransomed people to complete in glory what His grace began on earth.

    Paul did not pretend to say who of the Colossians were really born of God, how could he, he could not judge a mans heart. But he had confidence that most of them were Christians, so he wrote in such a way as to stir up the consciences in case any of them thought of become a bit slack. There were so many new religions abounding, and it was a cause for grave concern, wolves sneaking in leading people astray. So those who are GENUINE CHRISTIANS, grounded in spirit and truth, these will not be swayed away from the hope of the gospel. They know all too well what it has already done for them to, that they would so eagerly turn away from it to some new and untried doctrine – like people do today.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    This is another of this IF verses. You understand this exactly as you read Colossians 1:23-25

    1 John 2:19-25
    19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us.
    20 Nevertheless you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
    21 I have not written to you that you do not know the truth, but that you do know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
    22 Who is the liar but the person who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This one is the antichrist: the person who denies the Father and the Son.
    23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. The person who confesses the Son has the Father also.
    24 As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
    25 Now this is the promise that he himself made to us: eternal life.

    This is another of this IF verses. When you read verse 24 you read it exaclty as I explained it to you in the Colossians 1:23-25 (see my comment above)

    John wrote of these PRETENDERS, “They went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” (1 John 2:19). It’s interesting to notice, that once outside these PRETENDERS became the worst opponents of those who stand for the Gospel Truth of Jesus Christ. It is true, no one who hates the gospel more than the person who once professed to be saved but afterward turned to a life of sin because there was no reality in his profession. These were the antichrists John warned the little children about in his day. John called all Christians little children irrespective of their age.

    How are the little children to guard against these false teachers? Look at 1 John 2:20-21 “But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.” He said, “Ye know all things” Ok, not every detail, but potentially you know most of the details. Because you have the Holy Spirit abiding in you, the One who DOES KNOW, and therefore you don’t need to be carried away by any form of error.

    What do young believers have as their resource? Well, they only have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God! They have the Word of God in their hearts and the Holy Spirit abiding in them them to open their eyes to the TRUTH. When people come along with their false teachings that deny the blood of Jesus, or the deity of Christ, of any doctrine of Jesus Christ, or emphasize human attainment, or works to attain salvation etc, etc, etc, young Christians can turn back to the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit abiding in them will illuminate the Word of God them and thus prevent them from falling into error.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    John 15:4-6
    4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    If we don’t remain in him…by faith, we will wither. Our faith is a living, growing, abiding, continuing, persevering, enduring confidence and obedience in the One who saved us. If our faith (which is our attachment to the branch), is gone…what sustains our life?

    And again, another IF verse… “John 15:6 6 “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Ezek 15:2; Matt 3:10; Matt 7:19; Col 1:23;”

    You mis-interpret the text again. IF a man does not abide in Jesus Christ its because HE NEVER WAS A CHRISTIAN. You mis-understand the text… This be a parable. ALL GENTILES are rooted into the Olive Tree NOW, right? Every person has a branch right? Unbelievers are the fruitless branches, while believers are the fruit-bearing branches, right? Now..if one person’s branch is cut off, it’s not because they were Christian and then lost their salvation, it’s because they just never became Christian, or they professed to be, but they never were, God knows each person time, when they will reject him or not, and therefore until such time only then will he cut them off from the Olive tree – there will come the time when all Gentiles will be cut off (time has run out) and God’s focus will return to Israel and they will make up the entire Olive Tree. You are reading these verse in the wrong order, swap your thinking around :)

    Do you see?

  • Carolyn

    Do I see? LOL…

    I’m seeing double right about now. I just woke up with this verse going through my mind so I thought I’d look it up. Wouldn’t you know…it’s another IF verse. I’ll paste it for your consideration and I will concentrate on your answers in the morning. Back to bed I go…

    Hebrews 3:12-14
    King James Version (KJV)
    12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
    13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, this in reply to your # 12 comment:

    Two years ago when he lost his house, his job and his car, he stayed with us for nine months. During that time we got to know him very well. The first 3 months, I drove him to the liquor store every day for his case of 15 beer and pack of cigarettes. Funny how he didn’t have money for food…but he was able to support his habits. I had many talks with him about his faith…and I was most baffled at how he could still consider himself a Christian with his lifestyle. He talked the talk, however, and so I observed. But then things got ugly, he got abusive and I went to Bible study mode. In the end he cursed me out and I won’t allow him back here without some big changes. I have forgiven him, but I draw the line at abuse.

    When I read this I immediately discerned that your friend was never a believer in the first place, a COUNTERFEIT, a PROFESSOR, NOT a possessor.Am I judging his heart, NO! There are so many red flags here waving that he is not genuine!

    First of all, if I took someone in I would NEVER enable them be taking them down to get their alcohol – with drinking like that, your friend is obviously an ALCOHOLIC!! Not to mention that he was smoking like a chimney and obviously in bondage to cancer sticks.

    Did it ever occur to you that it might have been his own fault that he lost his house?
    And after you stopped helping him feed his habits, he got really ugly. HELLO!
    And you put up with this for 9 months? My dear sister, you must have the gift of mercy! If I had taken him in he would not have been allowed to smoke or drink in my home and he would have been expected right from the getgo to pull his share of the load.

    And how do you know that the altercation with the pastor was the pastor’s fault?

    So if you are basing your view of OSAS on this friend, you are barking up the wrong tree. Over the years I have been exposed to people who have PROFESSED and have in the time of testing or it starts to wear thin that it comes out that they have NOT been truly saved! They know how to play the game! And by doing so they harden their own hearts.

    It is very simple. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation and there is nothing we can do to keep our salvation. When a true Christian sins, they are convicted and are miserable in it. And if they persist in it, they will either destroy themselves or the Lord will call them home prematurely. Their salvation is never in question, but they will give account at the Bema seat and they will suffer loss as they face the Lord and realize how they have failed to live for Him. Faithful servants will receive crowns and hear the Lord say “Well done, good and faithful servant” and tears will be shed by those who served themselves over the Lord.

    Your friend is a classic example of a counterfeit “christian” who knows how to talk the talk but doesn’t walk the walk. I need to qualify this by saying that one can be a Christian and due to circumstances fall away for a time. This happened to me (I received the Lord at an early age but it was heartfelt) during a time of trial and I was very bitter toward the Lord. But the Holy Spirit kept drawing me back and affirming my faith. The Lord never left me and He will never leave a true believer. He keeps His own – I have doubt whatsoever of that.

  • Truthful Conversation

    Just a comment on all this, as Debs has listed the biblical verses and has done the explanations.

    I was walking in sin when I married an unbeliever. When I went through this stage of disobedience, things happened to me which I knew was the Lord’s chastisement, and I had a constant longing for the Lord, and to be right with Him. I confess I lived under constant conviction of the Holy Spirit, and I was miserable. It was a very difficult time as my husband was not interested in my beliefs, and I went back and forth trying to witness to him, and giving up. I went in and out of a sinful lifestyle.

    It is a very long story which I do not wish to go into, but eventually we attended a church, where my husband ‘gave his life to Jesus’. In the years to come I did not see any real change in him. He was still abusive, physically and verbally. He never showed any interest in God’s word, and only picked up his bible to take to church. After church he was often moody and nasty, he would regularly have me in tears. Sometimes we went out for lunch after church, and he would drink alcohol. I could not understand how anyone could walk straight of church and drink alcohol.

    My husband and I separated seven years ago, he was already living a worldly lifestyle, and he has continued to drink heavily and show no interest in God, whatsoever. His friends are all worldly, he swears something terrible (he always did), and there is absolutely no evidence of sorrow or guilt over his sin. He never talks about the Lord and I can’t talk to him about God either. On the other hand, I turned my life COMPLETELY back to God, not because I am a good person, or a better person than my ex husband, but because I had been truly saved in the first place. I was always miserable when I was living with sin in my life.

    My conclusion has to be that my ex husband was not truely saved. I do not judge him, I care for him, and I pray for him all the time. I pray that He will turn to Jesus before it is too late.

    My point here is that there is a definite difference between someone who is TRULY saved and falls into sin, and those who have a false conversion.

  • Carolyn

    ok. Here’s where I am

    Can we judge sinful lifestyle? Yes. I would also state that lifestyle is our choice, not God’s
    1 Corinthians 5:12
    From Scripture:
    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    Can we judge genuine faith? No. We cannot know another person’s heart.
    From Scripture:
    1 Corinthians 4:5
    Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    Can we lose genuine faith? I don’t know that either. But unbelief is not a popular option with God. It seems to be the dividing line.
    From Scripture:
    Hebrews 10:39
    But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
    King James Version (KJV)
    12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
    13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Can we judge conversion? Yes I would also state that that is God’s gift upon condition of our confession and belief
    From Scripture:
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Romans 10:10
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    And as long as we are on this earth I see…we still have the gift of choice. Choose this day whom you will serve. Choose between life and death. I choose Christ!

  • Sue

    Agreeing largely with Deborah and hope all find the following helpful. Taken from Dr Robert Dean’s teachings.

    What Does It Mean To Abide in John 15

    Abide
    Gk meno Strongs
    1) to remain, abide
    a) in reference to place
    1) to sojourn, tarry
    2) not to depart
    a) to continue to be present
    b) to be held, kept, continually
    b) in reference to time
    1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
    a) of persons, to survive, live
    c) in reference to state or condition
    1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
    2) to wait for, await one

    The Reformed and Arminian view is almost identical. They claim ‘abide’ = ‘believe’ (Gk pisteuo 4100).

    Believe
    Gk Pisteuo Strongs 4100
    1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
    a) of the thing believed
    1) to credit, have confidence
    b) in a moral or religious reference
    1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
    2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
    3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
    2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
    a) to be intrusted with a thing

    Reformed: The Calvinist claims that those who do not abide; were not genuine believers in the first place, and will burn in the fires of hell vs6.

    The Arminian: Those who do not abide, were saved, but lose their Salvation and will burn in the fires of hell. vs6.

    The Calvinist never had it and will burn in hell.
    The Arminian had it, and lost it, and will burn in hell.

    Free Grace aka CHAFER: Abiding = FELLOWSHIP with God. Believers are the branches who either abide (stay) in fellowship, or do not abide in fellowship with God.
    ALL the branches end up in heaven, it is their dead WORKS (fleshly) that are burned at the BEMA fire. 2Cor5:10; Rom14:10. [NOT the judgment fire of Rev.20]

    Free Grace = Faith alone in Christ alone (no works pre or post salvation)

    [Beware of the Crossless gospel of the Grace Evangelical Society]

    Maranatha

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    I am also seeing double believe it or not LOL. Only because I have a headache, I will reply, but I will be a bit slow today as I have some other thingies I need to do :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sue

    AhhhhHUH!!! That makes perfect sense…

    Reformed: The Calvinist claims that those who do not abide;were not genuine believers in the first place, and will burn in the fires of hellvs6.

    The Arminian: Those who do not abide, were saved, but lose their Salvation and will burn in the fires of hell. vs6.

    The Calvinist never had it and will burn in hell.
    The Arminian had it, and lost it, and will burn in hell.
    ……
    Free Grace = Faith alone in Christ alone (no works pre or post salvation)

    That is absolutely true.

    So Carolyn, are you a Calvinist, Arminian or a Christian? :) Just asking you to think about the differences here…because there are BIG differences.

    ———————

    It’s interesting to note that Jacob Prasch (and all at Moriel Ministries) believes you can lose your salvation and they follow the teachings of John Wesley (Arminian /Methodist) and George Whitfield (a mixture of a Calvinsit/Methodist)

    If you go and look at every one who believes they can loose their salvation, you will find that they follow Arninian doctrine or even a Pelagianim.

    Arminians / Methodists are very works based. They believe you can lose your salvation hence WORKS plays a very big part in their salvation. They have to make up for their shortcomings through ‘works’, because they don’t want to change their ways.

    Whereas biblical Christianity, your salvation is based on FAITH alone an nothing else.

  • Carolyn

    Redeemer…yes, I know he is an alcoholic. Yes, I know a lot of things now. And it is much more complicated than labelling myself as a loopy enabler. Factor in about 20 other complications and you have it about right.

    I’m not basing OSAS on any one individual. But he was a catalyst that made me think seriously about the subject. That’s all.

    As far as judging him as a counterfeit Christian…I still don’t have to concern myself with that. He certainly thinks about God a lot. How do I know if he will or won’t one day kneel before God and repent of his sin? His mom was a Christian and prayed for him till her dying day. I have to believe that God put him here for a reason and my job was to take it one day at a time and keep myself in prayer.

    Debs…
    Up until about 12 years ago, I was a tongues talking, vision seeing, dream believing, experience oriented charismatic. I attended a Kathryn Khulman meeting in Toronto when I was 12…became totally star struck. Read every book, followed every charismatic celebrity, paddled down the WOF river, rounded the bend, caught up with the NAR crowd and then Wham! Bam! I got out just in time to miss Revival Todd and his boot kicking antics. Even though…would you believe it? He’s from the same town as me where he got his start in ministry. Also attended church with Ms. Extreme Prophetic Patricia King many years ago. She’s also originally from Abbotsford.

    Anyhow, now I’m just a plain old Christian with no initials, ranks or labels attached. Just a Scripture based, faith based, fact based, Truth based, Christ based believer.

  • Carolyn

    Hope your head feels better soon, Debs…ouch…I get caffeine related headaches. Not fun.

    Also, good to hear some of the other comments. Experiences, thoughts and perspective. It’s all good.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    >> As far as judging him as a counterfeit Christian…I still don’t have to concern myself with that. He certainly thinks about God a lot. How do I know if he will or won’t one day kneel before God and repent of his sin? His mom was a Christian and prayed for him till her dying day. I have to believe that God put him here for a reason and my job was to take it one day at a time and keep myself in prayer.

    We can’t judge who is and who isn’t a Christian, we do not know what is going on in people’s lives. But when it comes to the gospel itself the Bible is clear on the matter. So you and I can’t judge and we don’t know if someone will come around in the end, ONLY GOD KNOWS THAT. That is why the rule of thumb is this, IF a person holds fast to the gospel TO THE END, then HE IS SAVED, if he does not, he is not saved.

    >> Up until about 12 years ago, I was a tongues talking, vision seeing, dream believing, experience oriented charismatic. I attended a Kathryn Khulman meeting in Toronto when I was 12…became totally star struck. Read every book, followed every charismatic celebrity, paddled down the WOF river, rounded the bend, caught up with the NAR crowd and then Wham! Bam! I got out just in time to miss Revival Todd and his boot kicking antics. Even though…would you believe it? He’s from the same town as me where he got his start in ministry. Also attended church with Ms. Extreme Prophetic Patricia King many years ago. She’s also originally from Abbotsford.

    Now listen to this, until such time as you obeyed the Holy Spirit and came out of false teaching, you were one of those branches ready for the fire (just like I was before I was saved). You thought you were saved, but you were not. You thought you were following the bible but you were not. But you are clearly a genuine seeker of the Lord Jesus Christ and God KNEW that you would come out of false teaching (because He knows all our futures) and accept Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit would come to abide in you and then your eyes were opened to the TRUTH of everything you were involved in and slowly to quickly you came out of it…

    When I got saved I knew nothing of Christianity, so I went to churches not knowing there was this thing called ‘false Christianity’ and I went from church to church seeking Jesus but I could not find Him. I felt totally out of place. Like there was something wrong in these churches, but I could not put my finger on it. I didn’t realise that I already had Jesus in my life :) It took me a while to cotton onto this as I was led up the garden path by some false Christians. Only when I started to obey the Holy Spirit and open my bible and start to study the Word of God by myself did things become a reality for me. And I can honestly say that there were times in my life (before I was genuinely saved) where I ‘turned to God’ and I attended a church and did the alter call thing and thought I was saved, but I was not. I was so far from it because I went back to my old ways so quickly after that. My conversion came when I gave my whole life to Jesus Christ and I changed my ways there and then on the spot, I wanted Jesus more than life itself and that was the day the Holy Spirit came to live in me. Before that, I was a professing Christian for a few months before I went back to my old ways.

    I am going to say something very shocking now, but I know for a fact that people know they are not genuinely Christian even when they profess to be Christian because they can feel it deep down – they know their relationship with God is rocky or null and void. And they can fool everyone around them into believing they are Christian, but they can’t fool God.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    I do not believe it is all so black/white as you have stated regarding those in charismatic circles being unsaved. I will give part of my testimony as an example.

    I came to a time in my life when the words “my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me” hit me like lightening. The sudden realisation like a beam of light that it was my sins that nailed Jesus to the cross and that He suffered for my sake because of me. At that point I was overwhelmed by God’s love for me and broke down in tears before my Saviour and willingly committed my life to Him. It was indeed irresistable love (not the Calvin type).

    From that moment I was born again with a changed heart. I was so enthusiastic for Jesus that I wanted to read everything about my faith that I could get my hands on (that was a mistake) and I was absorbed with reading/studying the Bible. Soon after I got into the bible, other books paled into insignificace with reading the Bible. However, one of the books I read at the beginning was “a cross and a switchblade” by David Wilkerson.

    This book got be focussed on seeking the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”. I actually DID have a wonderful experience (not by the laying on of hands) whilst in a prayer meeting. It was like light completely shined within my soul releasing me from every shackle that I still had. Beforehand my heart/emotions were awakened to love Jesus, but now it was COMPLETE release. I could sing these words “my chains fell off, my heart was free, I rose went forth and followed thee”. Whether I was already saved or NOW saved, I do not know, but all I know is that I received a boldness in my witness I didn’t have until then.

    I attended charismatic churches for many years after then (in the late 70′s early 80′s) and I KNOW I was saved DESPITE in naivety being part of them.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> This book got be focussed on seeking the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”. I actually DID have a wonderful experience (not by the laying on of hands) whilst in a prayer meeting. It was like light completely shined within my soul releasing me from every shackle that I still had. Beforehand my heart/emotions were awakened to love Jesus, but now it was COMPLETE release. I could sing these words “my chains fell off, my heart was free, I rose went forth and followed thee”. Whether I was already saved or NOW saved, I do not know, but all I know is that I received a boldness in my witness I didn’t have until then.

    1) Ermmm…. I don’t know what to say to this…

    2) AS I STATED, Only God knows who is saved and who is NOT, we can’t judge each other. If you say you were, then you were. Who I am to say you are not and vice versa. You can be telling the truth or you could be lying to yourself even, never the less – John, the point I am trying to make is that you can’t lose your salvation!

  • John Chingford

    Debs

    As you know, I DO FIRMLY believe (as stated in Scripture) that if someone is truly saved (born again or born into God’s kingdom as a newborn child of God) they can NEVER lose that status and can NEVER be unborn.

    I wrote my last comment because of what you said in item 30 to Carolyn:

    “Now listen to this, until such time as you obeyed the Holy Spirit and came out of false teaching, you were one of those branches ready for the fire (just like I was before I was saved). You thought you were saved, but you were not. You thought you were following the bible but you were not”

    If what you said was true then I did not become saved until I stopped attending charismatic churches in 2004. I know that I was saved in 1977 and filled with the Holy Spirit about 1.5 years later on. My understanding of what happened was that as I offered myself in surrender to Jesus HE then had more of me, rather than me having more of the Holy Spirit. The result was a filling.

    Please do not be afraid of the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” by throwing out the baby with the bath water just because there is SOOOOOOO much of the counterfeit going on and those who preach it most are the biggest fakes on Earth.

    The fact is that it is scriptural to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts 1:8 “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    Then Ephesians 4:18 “be filled with the Holy Spirit”. Paul was addressing born again believers.

  • John Chingford

    Sorry. The last verse I quoted, should be Eph 5:18 NOT 4:18

  • Redeemed

    Hi Carolyn,

    I see you addressed me as “Redeemer”. There is only one Redeemer. Of course it was a typo.

    Sister, you are a real hoot and I think if we sat down over a spot ’0 tea we would have a great time of fellowship and a lot of giggles and chuckles and some guffaws mixed in. And I don’t think I would find you “loopy”, but instead just a regular person who has had a wealth of life experiences.

    I am thankful for DTW and that Deborah allows a forum for us to come together and discuss all of this, much of it iron sharpening iron. There is little to no sound doctrine coming from the pulpit anymore, so those who love the truth and are confused or questioning can come and we can “talk” about it and hopefully as a result we can find clarity.

    I truly hope that your alcoholic messed up friend with the faithful praying mother comes to his senses and TRULY surrenders to the Lord. I know people who know how to talk the talk and deceptively worm their way into the lives of believers and even so far as marrying them. Then at some future point they are exposed for what they TRULY are – FAKES. They posed as Christians for personal gain, perhaps to win over someone they want to marry or wish employment from or some other benefit. It happens all the time and we just have to be discerning and see the red flags. Often there is no way except through the test of time to discover the truth. And that ends up as a very painful experience.

    If one is living a life of sin, not temporary slippage, but practicing it as a lifestyle, it is a choice. We say so often that we can’t know the heart, but we can judge from the FRUIT of the life as to whether that person has the Holy Spirit.

    Your friend loves his sin, that is why he practices it. No true believer will love their sin, but will be miserable in it. That is a test that shows what is in the heart. We don’t have to be clueless about this.

  • tosin

    i am so disappionted in your comparison of calvin theology and bible. are you the true bible teacher. you are proud. pray that God should reveal what he thinks about you to you

  • Carolyn

    Hi John. I also believe that it is not as cut and dried as “you’re either in or you’re out”. Then we cross into cookie cutter kind of Christianity where, “if you don’t look just like me, you’re not a cookie”. Who do we serve? That’s the question.

    It is God who sees our response to the Holy Spirit and the message of the gospel and continues defining, refining, and perfecting our belief. He is the one who gives life. He is the one who exposes our sin, our idolatry and heart issues that keep us from total freedom in Christ. He’s the one who puts us through the fire and we don’t know what he’s doing sometimes, (no make that most of the time)…but as a disciple of Christ, we follow, we pray, we ask, we knock, we seek and we believe. He who made the promises is faithful to bring his Word to pass in our lives. He will bring us home.

    Hi Redeemed. I had to look back to make sure you were telling the truth. Did I really call you Redeemer? Ha…yes I did. I will probably not make that mistake again…but then again, my synapses are not always connected. Depends how much coffee I have drinked that day :-). Yes, it would be fun to sit down over a cup of something…green tea, earl grey, black, herbal…your choice sister.

    In my friend’s case, the fact that he became angry with the pastor and didn’t quickly repent was the thing that separated him from the life of peace with God that he had enjoyed up to that time.

    I know in my own life there have been a couple of times when I hated someone and both times, I was awakened with what felt like an ultimatum from the consuming fire of God…can’t explain it…it was scary. In both cases I was more than justified for my anger (due to betrayal, lies and nasty words said to me) but that didn’t matter to God. I knew it was either give up my anger and forgive or forfeit my peace with Him. Had I hedged, I may have lost out. But in both cases, I got up, hauled in the horns, made the calls and asked forgiveness.

    In one of the cases, I saw little to no reciprocation (it involved a whole raft of characters from family members to spouse to friends and charismatic elders). Today because I made the calls to those I hated, my conscience is clear. That did not mean that I allowed them to walk all over me. I still detached from their abusive behaviour. Most of them chose not to have a relationship with me because they refused to be respectful. But God had freed me from my own hatred.
    1 John 2:9
    He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
    1 John 2:11
    But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

    My friend lives with his hatred every day. I heard the story of the argument between him and the pastor at least a dozen times while he was here (although I would change the subject momentarily). Hatred still consumes him…as does his sin. If only he had repented quickly….Still…I can’t say that he will NEVER repent. I can judge his sinful lifestyle however and when his time was up…he was outta here. God opened the door and I lent the boot.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Debs and John,
    I read your exchanges, and they are related to the question I have been pondering with again and again since June 2011 when I came out of deception.

    I was saved in 1992. Shortly after that I joined the Cameroon based charismatic cult called Christian Missionary International founded by the late Zacharias Tanee Fomum. I loved the Lord passionately. I was totally committed to the Lord, yet I blindly followed this cult and its founder and his vision to win the world for Christ, because I most sincerely believed that he was serving the Lord. Even though the cult taught that you can loose your salvation (–> works based), even though I didn’t have complete victory over sin in my life, I NEVER doubted my salvation. Despite my education, I’ve always had a childlike faith in the Words of Jesus in John 1:12, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 10:27-29, 1 John 5:12-13, etc.

    To make a long story short, God in His Mercy and Grace miraculously opened my eyes to that deep deception and satanic lies in June 2011. Since that day it has been a passionate and liberating journey and search and discovery of truth.

    Now, I am having a hard time reconciling Scriptures like John 16:13, John 8:31-32, John 10:5, John 10:25 on the one hand, and having had the Abiding Holy Spirit in me all these 19 years. The depth of the deception I was in is simply unfathomable to me today, and I keep wandering: was I genuinely saved then? if yes, where was the abiding Holy Spirit of Truth who only leads us into ALL Truth? Where was He? Why did I hear the voice of and followed a stranger? Why did I not flee from the stranger? Why did I not hear the voice of Jesus and did I not follow Him?

    Sincerely, the only true answer I can give today, the only logical conclusion I can give is I DID NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH. And consequently I was NOT saved. what I have been saying until now is: I was genuinely saved, and God knew my heart, that is why He took me out of there, and out of all the deceptions. What I have been saying is: If someone in there is truly saved, he will of necessity get out of there. I have not been seeing them as unsaved. If what I am realizing concerning myself is true, it means they are still all unsaved. This is a sobering thought.

    After all, did our Lord not say that “IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect.”, meaning that they shall NOT deceive the elect?

    Anyway “Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.”

  • Sue

    Salvation comes in the millisecond one believes, or faiths in the Gospel. Nothing goes before (not even repentance, or baptism) that vital moment of agreement and acceptance of God’s FREE gift, the ONLY condition for Salvation is for ‘pistis’, to believe/faith in Christ and that is stated more than 200 times in Scripture. The second we believe, we are Justified as Jesus takes on our unrighteousness and credits to our account HIS righteousness. Legally, by heaven’s court, our dept is paid IN FULL by Christ and we are declared to be ‘not guilty’ as the Holy Spirit immediately INDWELLS the new believer in our brand new human spirit and we are given the ‘new nature’ in Christ. At that very moment, the Holy Spirit also plunges us INTO the Body of Christ, His Bride, the Church and there we are kept for eternity by the power of God.

    JUSTIFICATION is the initial part of our being saved/born-again. This is by God’s Grace, through faith alone in Christ alone and there is no outward evidence of the miracle of Salvation that has taken place. This does not mean we do not sin, because we also retain the ‘old man’ or ‘sin nature’ as well as the ‘new man’ in Christ. So the trial of our faith begins as we say yes to the Holy Spirits leading instead of our fleshly (its all about ME) sin nature. Over our life span, The Holy Spirit will change us, as we choose to obey God’s Word instead of self. This is SANCTIFICATION.

    First comes JUSTIFICATION – and regardless of how we behave, good or bad, we are 100% saved by no works salvation. NOT deeds, it is a God proclaimed legal FACT. For by Grace are you saved, through faith, and that (our salvation) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by any works lest any man should boast. God alone can see our transition from eternal death, to eternal life in Christ.

    It is the process of SANCTFICATION that is visible to onlookers. This process will take our remaining mortal life span to be changed. Even then, it is only when we finally see Christ at the Rapture; that the perfect is come in each of us and Christ’s Body is complete. It’s easier for us to see rebellion against God in others during our sanctification – the refusal to submit to God’s will in obedience to His Word is easily noted in the thief, the alcoholic, the proud and the deniers of Christ. The Corinthians are a prime example of saved believers i.e. the justified who are sinning as if they were still in the world remaining babes instead of growing into mature believers which is God’s will for us all.

    Mistaking Justification for Sanctification is a common error.

    Maranatha – please.

  • Carolyn

    Debs, you said:
    “Now listen to this, until such time as you obeyed the Holy Spirit and came out of false teaching, you were one of those branches ready for the fire (just like I was before I was saved). You thought you were saved, but you were not. You thought you were following the bible but you were not. But you are clearly a genuine seeker of the Lord Jesus Christ and God KNEW that you would come out of false teaching (because He knows all our futures) and accept Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit would come to abide in you and then your eyes were opened to the TRUTH of everything you were involved in and slowly to quickly you came out of it…”

    I believe the question is, what is genuine faith?

    I believed the gospel, John 3:16 as a child. But my family was steeped, I say steeped in NOLR and Pentecostalism and we had books like Guideposts with rat eared corners sitting on the coffee table and God Calling sitting on another table. William Branham was the hero of the day and anything that moved or breathed charisma was welcomed.

    Hey…if we grow up in these settings, we have to start somewhere. Like John I read the Bible and the books and somewhere through all the fog of false teaching there was a spark of genuine faith as small as a mustard seed. He who began a good work in me through the seed(His Word), is carrying it to completion. I know that he was present listening to my prayers, throughout my life, even though all my doctrine was not correct but because of the seed of faith that he had planted in my heart through the Word of Truth.

    The thing that saved me and brought me out in the end was, of course my rejection of the “false prophet” that came to our church and all the ensuing chaos. But the reason I recognized the false prophet was because I knew the Word and I knew he wasn’t speaking things that agreed with the truth. No one else seemed to care, but I did.

    To me genuine faith is faith in the Word period. It can get choked out by worries, cares, pleasures, idolatry and in today’s world, by false signs and wonders and every wind of teaching. My faith proved genuine because it was the genuine seed of the Word that remained when the winds of trouble blew in. I can tell you that during the time of testing when the WOF teaching failed me, I was devastated but when all was said and done…I was left with the Word of God still intact. And that’s the foundation that I have built on since leaving charismania.

    So can I lose genuine faith? I believe the answer is NO, since genuine faith is that which is rooted solely in the Word of God. Are we on the same page?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    tosin

    You are disappointed? Really? Well if you are disappointed at this, then you will be really disappointed when you read everything here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/all-keywords/churchs-church-movements/calvinism-calvinist-reformed-theology/

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    >> Then we cross into cookie cutter kind of Christianity where, “if you don’t look just like me, you’re not a cookie”. Who do we serve? That’s the question.

    What part of who are we to judge another’s salvation do you not understand? WE DO NOT KNOW WHO IS SAVED AND WHO IS NOT. God knows who is saved and who is not. But the BIBLE is clear – YOU CAN’T LOSE YOUR SALVATION.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    Thank you for YOUR HONESTY! Many will not be that honest.

  • Michael

    What does to believe really mean according to the word of God.

    I found this written by Vitali on the web.

    It appears a simple and helpful.

    1) The verb “to believe” is closely related to the noun “faith”; basically “to believe”=”to have faith”
    2) At the heart of the meaning is the idea of certainty. So, to believe means to be very certain about something. This is in contrast with modern English meaning, which can range from certainty to a guess, as in “I believe there will be good weather tomorrow”.
    3) As a logical consequence of 2), having certainty about something often results in action, as you put your trust in it
    4) The degree of certainty may vary, e.g. you can have little faith or faith to move mountains.

    How do you know you believe in something (in the biblical sense)? I often find people to be poor judges of their faith, tending to overestimate it. The easiest test, quite independent from personal opinion, is to see whether your faith naturally results in a corresponding action. I am intentionally highlighting the word “naturally”, because

    1) It is possible that outside circumstances, a punishment or a reward can make you behave in a certain way even though you don’t believe you should. In this case your behavior is not a sign of the faith.

    2) You can force yourself to behave in a certain way precisely because you lack faith. This often happens when Christians do not have certainty that God has accepted them as they are, and hence are trying to make up for it with “good behavior”, “acts of righteousness”, as to earn God’s favor. This is the basis for so-called “salvation by works”. Compared to 1), here the action is a sign of having no or little faith.

    So, does this mean that if we cannot detect a trace of reward expectation or punishment fear, or lack of faith in our behavior, then it is natural? Well, again, I find people (including myself) to be poor judges of why we do things. Most of us like to think that we do not steal because we are good people, but take away the potential punishment (as often happens in times of war, revolution), and the true character sadly shows up.

    I would like to propose the following two tests. They might not work ideally in all circumstances, and may sometimes misclassify some natural behavior as unnatural, but I find them more reliable than others:

    1) The natural behavior lasts. This is in contrast with the punishment or reward-based behavior, which only lasts until this punishment or reward is withdrawn. The natural behavior is caused by great inner certainty and hence depends little on outside circumstances.
    2) The natural behavior is easy. Here by easy I don’t mean it does not require any effort, but that regardless of how much effort it requires, you can accomplish it with joy. This is in contrast with trying to compensate for the lack of faith, which is emotionally straining, and makes you lose joy as you feel you are never good enough.

    While I was trying to be general in my description so far, the Christians, in particular, are called to believe (have absolute certainty) in the gospel. For a Christian, every trace of unnatural behavior should be a sign that he does not believe the gospel nearly as much as he might think. How to change? Admitting this unpleasant truth should be the first step. In the words of boy’s father from Mark 9:24, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” And He will help.”

  • Continuation of my post #38 above

    The Lord has further settled the matter in my heart with the following Scriptures:

    -My sincerity, my passionate “love” for the Lord all those 19 years don’t mean anything because “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death” (Proverbs 16:25) and “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9).

    -By following a stranger,I was automatically rejecting Christ even though I “believed” I was following Him at the same time, because: “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” Matthew 6:24 and ”
    If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.” John 12:26
    This is actually breaking the first Commandment “Thou shalt have NO other god besides me”. When you follow, trust, believe a stranger, you are actually following, trusting, believing, and worshiping that stranger’s master who is Satan, and that is what I was doing: I had another god BESIDES Jehovah God.

    -By trusting and following man, I was under the curse of God because “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.” (Jeremiah 17:5) and no one who is cursed by God is saved.

  • @Carolyn,

    you wrote

    To me genuine faith is faith in the Word period. It can get choked out by worries, cares, pleasures, idolatry and in today’s world, by false signs and wonders and every wind of teaching.

    The abiding Holy Spirit of Truth does 3 things in the saved believer:
    -He convicts him of sin, which conviction leads to repentance. You SEE(discern) your sin. You KNOW you have sinned and grieved the Holy Spirit. You are peaceless and joyless until you repent. The worries, cares, pleasures and idolatry(?) you mention fall into this category.

    -He convicts him of righteousness, i.e. discernment of what is Right vs what is wrong, what is Truth vs what is false, error and deceitful (if not then verses like John 16:13, John 8:31-32, John 10:5 and John 10:27 are lies). He then rejects and flee from what is false, error, deceitful, wrong, and he cleaves to that which is true, good, right. The “false signs and wonders and every wind of teaching” you mention fall into this category, and makes me wonder if you were truly saved then, if you did not hear HIS voice warning you about the false signs and wonders and every wind of false teachings. Note: Only God knows our hearts. I’m not judging you heart. Just asking a sincere question that has troubled me but that is now settled (see my 2 latest posts on this discussion)

    -He convicts him of Judgement, ie the constant consciousness of the imminent return of Christ and the coming Judgement Seat of Christ for the saved ones, and the Judgement of the Great White Throne for the lost.

  • @Carolyn,
    you wrote:

    The thing that saved me and brought me out in the end was, of course my rejection of the “false prophet” that came to our church and all the ensuing chaos. But the reason I recognized the false prophet was because I knew the Word and I knew he wasn’t speaking things that agreed with the truth. No one else seemed to care, but I did.

    You rightly use the word “saved me”. Could it be that that is when you actually got “saved” for real?
    You know what? Your testimony I just quoted is EXACTLY what happened to me in June 2011! Amazing isn’t it? I attended a 4 days conference where this “false prophet” was the speaker, and those four days were kind of my Damascus Road experience. My scales fell off and I could see. At the end of the conference I exposed, denounced and rejected that “false teacher”. Chaos ensued. No one else seemed to care. As I continued to obey and follow the Lord and Him alone, He continued to show me all the lies, false doctrines, etc, and He hasn’t stopped.

    That is WHEN I date my true conversion.

    God bless you my dear sister. We have many things in common. Oh yes, we have the Abiding Holy Spirit of Truth in common.

  • @Debs,

    Thank you for YOUR HONESTY! Many will not be that honest.

    You know, it is not easy to swallow our pride and acknowledge that our “spiritual age” is not what we have always thought to be, to cut 19 years(in my case) from your testimony of conversion, and to suddenly become a spiritual babe (19 months in my case). It is not easy to have to rewrite the “story” of our conversion.
    It takes a great deal of humility, and I have struggled with that until I have now come to terms with that.

    Of course, my former “spiritual family” considers that I was “saved” before that, and that now I am “lost”. Yes, I am “lost” to them and saved unto Jesus Christ!

  • Redeemed

    Michael, I don’t know if this properly addresses what you have said, but here goes.

    The thought of consequences for one’s behavior can serve as a deterent for sin just as it works in the criminal justice system. Oftentimes a deterent does not work, but oftentimes it does but there is no way to document how many crimes were prevented.

    In Christianity, if one is truly saved, one will want to please the Savior out of gratitude for what He ahs done for us. That is the Holy Spirit within us. But also, there is or there SHOULD be a reverence and awe for Who God is, His majesty, His power, His might, etc. Just as a child obeys a parent, sometimes it is because they don’t want to get a spanking or it is simply to please out of love.

    Surely the choice one makes on a spiritual level will determine where one spends eternity. When one fully understand the impact of spending eternity in hell it is terrifying. Some people need to hear “fire and brimstone” and others need to know the grace of God.

    Certainly everyone’s life experience is different and we all face challenges to our faith. But if it is genuine saving faith, not a fleeting faith that comes and then fades quickly, we will weather through all the storms.

  • Redeemed

    @ Paul (Continue in His Word):

    Actually, this is for Carolyn also because you both share how you came out of false teaching. Firstly, I praise our wonderful Lord for delivering you! Paul, so recently and yet you have grown by leaps and bounds.

    I don’t think any of us can discern at what point you actually surrendered your life in genuine faith. But the greater issue is that you DID and you are living for Him and desire to grow.

    I too have had many “detours” in my Christian life. I believe I surrendered to the Lord as a child of 11. But there were many challenges to come, even extending into adult life. I took a trip in Charismania through a sweet couple who didn’t know better. But with every “detour”, God used that experience to His glory because I could say “been there done that” and show others it is false.
    As I came out of that belief I went back to them and showed them the errors. Sadly they were so entrenched they didn’t heed my warnings, but they did step out of the worst of it. I believe they were genuinely saved, but deceived.

    On the one hand we can judge fruit to see if the walk matches the talk and yet like Debs says, only God knows for sure the state of that person’s heart. Are they just going through a rough patch or are they unregenerate? My attitude is to never ASSUME someone is saved if they may profess but display bad fruit. They still need ministry even if they are saved. They need to have their salvation readdressed and confirmed and validated.

    Life is a journey and there are many forks in the road. That ais why I call my departures from truth “detours”. But my Shepherd always came looking for me and brought me back to the right road. I may have got stuck in the mud but He rescued me. But we have to get on the right road to start with.

    I have been edified by these exchanges and appreciate this forum where we can fellowship and ask honest questions.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    I know and understand TOTALLY. The wonderful part is you can SEE the difference and you KNOW you are now saved. I too am but a babe, not many years ago was I genuinely saved, so don’t feel all alone. ALSO realise that what you went through was a learning patch that God will use for HIS GLORY that you can witness to others.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Redeemed

    >> I too have had many “detours” in my Christian life. I believe I surrendered to the Lord as a child of 11. But there were many challenges to come, even extending into adult life. I took a trip in Charismania through a sweet couple who didn’t know better. But with every “detour”, God used that experience to His glory because I could say “been there done that” and show others it is false. As I came out of that belief I went back to them and showed them the errors. Sadly they were so entrenched they didn’t heed my warnings, but they did step out of the worst of it. I believe they were genuinely saved, but deceived.

    Many people gave their hearts to Jesus Christ as a child, I was one of them. But then evil temptation gets hold of you an spins you many stories as to why you need to walk a different path. I do believe that the Holy Spirit was with me, convicting me, all my life until such time as I totally surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. But during those years when I was in the occult I was obviously anti-Christ but then something would remind me that I need Jesus in my life and I would be brought to my knees crying; on two occasions I sought to go to church to change my life around. I did the sinners prayer and alter call on both those occasions and led a ‘Christian’ life for a couple of months – but then wanted my old life back and returned to my old ways. It was only many years later and that ‘conviction’ that finally brought me to my knees for a final time before Jesus Christ where I was truly saved.

    When you are genuinely saved and you are caught up in a false church as I was too at the wee hours of my conversion, and someone comes to you and shows to the truth that the church teaches false teaching, the Holy Spirit abiding in you will immediately let you know what you are hearing is TRUTH and that you must take notice and heed the warning. And this is where obedience comes into action, and a genuine Christian will sooner or later after investigation realise that they are indeed in a trap of false teaching and escape – like in your case and you will warn others.
    Other professing Christians wont heed any warning, because they don’t hear the Holy Spirit and they will stay in their false teaching and actually go deeper and deeper and deeper, unless of course they get genuinely saved at a later stage in which case they will then have the Holy Spirit to open their eyes to the truth.

    The Holy Spirit is not slack when it comes to warning God’s Children of false teaching. Yes sometimes we take a while to cotton onto the situation as we figure it out, but we are obeying His warning. Those who do not hear the warnings, those who do not want to know the truth, those who follow men’s doctrines instead of Jesus Christ’s are more than likely professing Christians; they want the name but they don’t want Jesus Christ who comes with the name.

  • Redeemed

    Yes, Debs case in point. The sweet elderly couple who introduced me to the “Charismatic Renewal”. They came out of a very liberal church environment into Charismania. I do believe they were saved – they are both now deceased. And they came out of the craziness of it into a more “mainstream” at that time anyway, church.

    But they still revered Benny Hinn and others. I tried to show them that Hinn was a false teacher, but they chose to remain in the “signs and wonders” camp. I do not question their salvation, but at the same time I do believe when they stand before the Lord they will give an account of refusing to reject false teaching and idolize man. I hope I see them in heaven because they did believe in the biblical plan of salvation.

    A side note to this. I was present at the lady’s bedside as she passed from this earth dying from cancer. It was not a peaceful passing. It was quite unsettling in fact. I and another relative quoted Scripture and prayed over her and finally she passed. I have been at the bedside of one other person and saw the life leave his eyes. It was quick and instanteous. This person had made a profession but was still connected to the Masons,m but not ample time after his profession to realize and renounce. Why the difference I am baffled. But it is in God’s hands.

    I think it is just so important not to assume that someone is a Christian because they profess but there is no fruit. This is playing Russian roulette with one’s eternal destiny. But too often it is accepted at face value that one is a Christian with genuine saving faith when in fact it is not.

  • Redeemed

    p.S. to above

    There is way too much “easy believism” going around that results in false professions without counting the cost of being identified with Jesus Christ.
    The Gospel is simple to understand, there is a cost involved.

    I like this message from John R. Rice’s book What It Costs to Be a Good Christian. It is an audio from a site where many of Bro. Rice’s sermons can be heard. I always hestitate to send someone to a site because every jot and title may not be right. So please use discernment always. There are some real gems here and some old-fashioned preachin’ that we surely could use in our day.

    What It Costs To Be A Good Christian
    http://fundamentalbaptistsermons.net/sermonsRice1.htm

  • Carolyn

    Paul, Redeemed, Thanks for the kind words. I don’t disagree.

    Debs…I agree with much of what you say. However, I have studied Once Saved Always Saved and I still can’t fit the Scripture into that doctrine. I still see the “if” verses for what they are saying. I cannot make them fit the OSAS doctrine. Also, you stated that I was misrepresenting the Scripture. I don’t believe I was. That’s the way I read it.

    So I can see on this issue we will not agree. But I know that we both agree on the important issue of WHO are faith is in. We’re both trusting in the same Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Thanks for an honest discussion. I leave on a positive note:
    Philippians 3:14-16
    New International Version (NIV)
    14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
    Following Paul’s Example
    15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Carolyn

    Why leave? Why not stick around? You won’t find better respectful, open discussion on any other site anywhere else (apart from on my site [tongue in cheek, lol] though DTW is a much bigger site than mine).

    Please believe me because I have tried to find a suitable one. There are some who welcome you AS LONG as you agree with them. Woe betide you if you disagree – you get ridiculed, ostracised etc etc. Then there are others that are okay but they are too open and do allow “leaven” to spread rendering the site ineffective.

    Although Debs can be sometimes a bit too forthright imho she will always allow discussion which allows for respect for each other. Those who Debs allows to comment freely are those who show more of the character of Jesus than I have found anywhere else (I try to do the same on my own site also).

    Let’s face it, why should strangers come in and start “slagging” us off. However, if they give their opinions in a respectful way then Debs will publish their comments. I do not see that leniency anywhere else.

    So PLEASE stick around! For the sake of “Redeemed” please hang around because the two of you seem to be “hitting it off”.

    Also, I am in the process of putting something together which I would like you to read and reply to.

    God bless

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> Although Debs can be sometimes a bit too forthright imho

    da truth is da truth, like it or leave it :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> Please do not be afraid of the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” by throwing out the baby with the bath water just because there is SOOOOOOO much of the counterfeit going on and those who preach it most are the biggest fakes on Earth.

    Oh boy….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    I doth agree, stick around. I do :) I dunno why… but I do :) LOL

  • John Chingford

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):

    Debs, the point I am making is that the NT is full pof references to “being filled with the Holy Spirit”. The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is just another term for receiving or being filled with the Holy Spirit. Although there were specific apostolic gifts given for JUST those 12 apostles, surely we all need the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to be effective disciples of Jesus? The purpose of being filled with the Holy Spirit is to give us the strength, courage, discernment etc for witnessing. I am not giving my opinions. These things are very clear throughout the NT. Paul said that those who do not have the Holy Spirit do not belong to Christ. That means that receiving the Holy Spirit is a requirement for ALL believers and is what happens when a person is born again. The Holy Spirit within them makes them a new creation. “The old has gone……”.

    Btw, Carolyn, that is another verse that shows that a truly born again believer can NEVER lose what they have THE OLD HAS GONE! It cannot return because it has gone for good! You have become an eternal child of God and can never afterwards be anything else.

  • John Chingford

    Debs

    I agree. Da truth IS da truth. I was not referring to your bold and forthright stand for the truth. I admire you for the stance you take on the truth. No, I was referring to your style which I sometimes find too forthright. Just my honest opinion. Hugs!

  • John Chingford

    @ Redeemed: re 54

    I have listened to most of that audio. I like most of what he said. Although I was concerned by one thing he said which was “we are little saviours” which is possibly where WoF preachers got the idea of calling us little g’s.

    However, I “sort of” understand what he was trying to say, i.e that Jesus wants to use us as disciples to save others. I cringed when I heard him call me a little saviour. I am simply an ambassador for Christ and a mouthpiece – nothing else. I CANNOT save anyone. It is only the Holy Spirit’s work that can bring them to Jesus. I cannot convict them of sin – only the Holy Spirit can do that. So it is dangerous to call ourselves “little saviours”.

    Having said that, he makes an excellent point in showing there is a difference between being saved and becoming a disciple.

    Obviously, the reason we were not taken immediately to heaven when we were saved is because Jesus has a work (as disciples) for each and every one of us in playing our part to preach the gospel throughout the world, bringing the unsaved to salvation and THEN discipling them so that they ALSO can win others and can disciple them too etc etc.

    We should never be satisfied JUST being saved. The cost you referred to is the cost of being a disciple and NOT the cost of salvation. There is no cost of salvation because it is a FREE GIFT which needs to be received by faith through repentance.

    Carolyn, I wrote an article covering this entitled:

    “Why True Believers Are Eternally Secure In Their Salvation” on:

    [removed]l

    Please read the article AND the comments. Together they give a direct response to your concerns. Please always remember to put ALL isolated scripture verses into the context of the WHOLE picture of salvation (and God’s eternal plan of salvation) as shown by the WHOLE bible put together. If we do that, then isolated verses can be explained better. The above article seeks to do that.

    Please also note that subsequent to August 2010 I have learnt that I was wrong in my understanding of repentance. So the comment I made “Point I am making is that the moment we repented, turned from our selfish/sinful ways and gave our lives to Jesus, we were asking Jesus to take control of our wills.” needs to be slightly changed to:

    “Point I am making is that the moment we repented, (changed our minds) being convicted about our sinful condition and gave our lives to Jesus, we were asking Jesus to take control of our wills.”

    In response to the cost of being saved, my full reply can be found on my article:

    “What Is Repentance?” found on:
    [removed]

    Carolyn, please read these because it surely will prove that OSAS IS correct.

    God bless

  • John Chingford

    @ Sue: re no 39

    Hi Sue

    I agree with most of what you said.

    I would like to reply to this point you made:

    “It is the process of SANCTFICATION that is visible to onlookers. This process will take our remaining mortal life span to be changed. Even then, it is only when we finally see Christ at the Rapture; that the perfect is come in each of us and Christ’s Body is complete”

    ABSOLUTELY! When I was in fellowship at a Pentecost church I WAS saved (still am). Although I fellowshipped there, it did not mean I was in agreement with them or in what they practiced. It was in my naive zeal for the Lord and my desire to worship the Lord with all my heart (not just my mind) that I continued to attend. Their style of worship (especially during 1979 to 1983) enabled me express my heart to God eg, “I love you Lord and I lift my heart to worship You Oh my Lord …….” and “Jesus, how lovely you are”.

    During the latter half of the eighties, new age started to infiltrate and the “experiential” aspect took over. It was during this time that I started to question the whole “pentecostal” thing and was very disturbed within my soul.

    My attendance started to fall, but I did not know where else to fellowship because all the churches of other denominations seemed DEAD to me with highly compromised things being taught. So, I off and on still occasionally attended Pentecostal churches because of the scripture “do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together”.

    My walk with God has been a gradual changing of me and a lifetime learning experience of how God speaks to us and that HE never contradicts the Bible. I confess that I am a simple mind and have been extremely naive and too trusting in the past. Little by little my eyes were opened to the apostasy. Now my eyes are wide open. Is this not part of the sanctification work? I KNOW I was saved in 1977, but God took me through a journey to the place I am now. With some they may “see things” really quickly, but with others it may take them longer, but it doesn’t mean they were not saved because they were in a faulty church.

    I would be more concerned if a “so called” born again believer stayed in a clearly false religion such as the Catholic organisation.

  • Redeemed

    @ John Chingford:
    Hi John,

    I too cringed a bit over the comment “little saviors”. Then I listened to the rest and from what other things I have heard J.R. preach on I know that hsi heart is right and that he didn’t mean it like Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch that we are “little gods”. But glad that you had your discernment ears in action as we do need to catch these things.

    I liked the way he described that there is a cost be BEING a Christian and the distinction between that and receiving the FREE gift of salvation.

    There are many other sermons listed here and I look forward to working my way through them.

    I also have learned more about J.R.’s daughters. From what I’ve learnt so far they do seem to have honored his memory and not become apostate. It would be most disappointing if that was the case.

  • Carolyn

    ok ok. I’ll stick around. You all had me laughing so hard, I had to touch up my make-up. So long as you know…I’m not losing any sleep over this. Da fly is only around during daylight hours. At night….she sleeps. :-)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    >> Da fly is only around during daylight hours. At night….she sleeps. :-)

    ROTFL I also sleepies at night.

  • @Redeemed,

    I also have learned more about J.R.’s daughters. From what I’ve learnt so far they do seem to have honored his memory and not become apostate. It would be most disappointing if that was the case.

    I apologize and retract my comment stating that ALL Dr. Rice’s daughters have gone neo-evangelical/ecumenical. It was the perception I got from the following report by David Cloud:
    (Also I did not know that he had more daughters than those mentioned in David Cloud’s report)

    Joyful Woman magazine

    Joyful Woman, a magazine for women published by the daughters of the late fundamentalist evangelist John R. Rice, adopted the New Evangelical philosophy in the 1990s. Joy Rice Martin is the editor; two other Rice daughters, Jessie Sandberg and Joanna Rice, are contributing editors; and Elizabeth Rice Handford is the editorial consultant.

    The July-August 1991 issue contained a full-page ad for Campus Crusade’s Here’s Life Publishers, including the offer of a book entitled Freeing Your Mind from Memories That Bind. Campus Crusade was radically ecumenical since its inception and has had Roman Catholic staff members.

    The Jan.-Feb. 1992 issue of Joyful Woman contained a full page ad for the ecumenical World Vision, as well as an advertisement for the New International Version. World Vision works closely with the Roman Catholic Church in many parts of the world.

    The May-June 1994 issue of Joyful Woman featured James and Shirley Dobson on the front cover. Fifteen years earlier, Focus on the Family’s vice president Rolf Zettersten said he and his co-workers “cast their theological distinctives aside in order to achieve a common objective–to help families” (Focus on the Family, December 1989). Dobson has had a close and uncritical relationship with Roman Catholicism. The November 1989 issue of Focus on the Family’s Clubhouse magazine featured Mother Teresa. In November 2000, Dobson participated in a conference in Rome hosted by the pope’s Pontifical Council for the Family and by the Acton Institute, a Roman Catholic organization. Dobson also met with Pope John Paul II. The September 1990 issue of New Covenant, a Catholic charismatic magazine, praised Focus on the Family and featured a smiling Dobson on the cover, while another of the articles promoted prayers to Mary.

    The Joyful Woman Jubilee in October 1994 featured the ecumenical Elisabeth Elliot as a speaker. In July 1989 Elliot spoke at the Roman Catholic Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio, a hotbed of Roman Catholic-Charismatic confusion. Franciscan University holds an annual conference to exalt the blasphemous Catholic dogmas that Mary is the immaculately conceived Queen of Heaven and advocate of God’s people. In 1998, Elliot spoke at Notre Dame (Our Mother) University. When her brother converted to the Roman Catholic Church, Elliot said it is acceptable to be a Catholic and to celebrate the Catholic mass. She said this during a question-answer session at a gathering at the Wisconsin Expo Center on September 6, 1997, sponsored by WVCY radio in Milwaukee.

  • Keep it simple

    Examine Genesis 4:4-7 and Hebrews 11:4 and let me know if you think these scriptures refute Calvinist doctrine. In this passage it is clear that God offered Cain the opportunity to repent and be accepted. According to Calvinist doctrine and their use of Eph. 1:4 everyone is either “totally depraved or “unconditionally elected” before they were born. If this were true then God is being disingenuous with Cain and us.

  • Carolyn

    @Paul you said in #38

    “Sincerely, the only true answer I can give today, the only logical conclusion I can give is I DID NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH. And consequently I was NOT saved.”

    I would say that the Holy Spirit did not have you because you were not obeying Him. But how do we know when we are obeying him? What is Truth?

    John 8:43-45
    New International Version (NIV)
    43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

    Psalm 51:6
    Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

    John 18:37
    “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

    First we have to decide for truth. I’ll share this with you…I remember a very odd thing that occurred when I was still in charismania. I made an honest commitment to Truth. I remember the day, where I was standing and how I felt. It may have been my Damascus Light experience. I saw my own propensity for deceptive leanings. I saw the difference between Truth and self dishonesty. One brings light to the soul while the other brings blindness. When presented by God with the option…I chose Truth. It was shortly after that experience that everything else happened.

  • Carolyn

    John, you said #63

    With some they may “see things” really quickly, but with others it may take them longer, but it doesn’t mean they were not saved because they were in a faulty church.

    Someone said something not long ago that got my attention. Charismatics will sometimes say that they just can’t stand going to an ordinary church because it is just dead orthodoxy. He said it’s not the orthodoxy that is dead. It is the faith/belief in the Word that is dead. A truth worth remembering, I thought.

    Hebrews 4:2
    For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    Another truth worth remembering is that faith and obedience go hand in hand. In fact you could say that the words are interchangeable…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    >> Someone said something not long ago that got my attention. Charismatics will sometimes say that they just can’t stand going to an ordinary church because it is just dead orthodoxy. He said it’s not the orthodoxy that is dead. It is the faith/belief in the Word that is dead. A truth worth remembering, I thought.

    Oh no no, “He said it’s not the orthodoxy that is dead. It is the faith/belief in the Word that is dead.” This guy was speaking in terms of ‘Word of faith’. They actually believe that their faith and their words cause things to happen in the natural. They believe that faith is an actual force, and when spoken, well it’s like white magic really. I would say that the orthodox (that being you and I) have more faith in the actual Word of God because we don’t believe in the false teaching of the Word of Faith Charismatics.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Carolyn

    re you comment 70 and my comment 63

    Thanks for replying.

    I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I will try to clarify it a bit more.

    I was referring to the saved believers within “dead” churches who remain in them longer than others (this also applies to those who remain in apostate charismatic churches). Some may “see things” earlier than others i.e having their eyes opened to the apostate condition of the church.

    When I refer to dead churches, I mean those churches where attendants’ hearts are far from God. These so called “worshippers” simply go through the motions of their dead religion. Jesus said “my words they are Spirit and they are life”. These churches may/may not preach the truth or may preach just some of the truth, but those who attend including the pastors, ministers, vicars etc are not even saved. Therefore, not only is the word they preach lacking vitality, because it comes from empty shells, but the worship is dead too because the worshippers do not know Jesus.

    This is why Often born again believers leave these dead churches and go to charismatic churches because they naively *(like I did) perceive LIFE in those churches – certainly within the worship. Well ….. that used to be the case until groups like Hillside came onto the scene with their occultic, hypnotic, influenced music which was introduced to charismatic churches.

    Here is a bit more of my testimony to clarify things further:

    The Pentecostal church I went to in 1977 was nothing like the charismania we saw in the late 80′s/90′s and onwards.

    My church gave me good memories of fellowship with some wonderful believers. these believers showed more of the character of Jesus than I could find in any other church anywhere else. These were truly filled with the Holy Spirit. Towards the mid 80′s the leadership changed and everything changed with the emphasis on experiences, signs, wonders and power personalities. Those I loved and respected most were put to one side and rejected as insignificant believers.

    Although there were things I were unhappy with and disagreed with, it was the best church I could find (at that time – in fact it is even more difficult, today, to find a decent church). I have always been a Berean and do not/did not accept what I heard from the pulpit or saw within the church, without checking it out first. My conviction was that it would be wrong to “forsake the assembling of ourselves together”.

    In my reply to Debs I was trying to state that being filled with the Holy Spirit is essential in our witness, because the true sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit (apart from the fruit of the Holy Spirit) is BOLDNESS in our witness.

    Debs is absolutely correct to be VERY cautious regarding charismania but I believe has possibly become a little too cautious about discussing what the fullness of the Holy Spirit truthfully looks like.

    Do we not agree that the NT is constantly discussing the importance of being filled with the Holy Spirit. Even Paul’s instructions regarding leaders is that they should be men filled with the Holy Spirit. We need to find the right balance. I get the impression that there are two extremes and no middle ground out there.

    There are those who talk far too much about the Holy Spirit, rather than glorifying Jesus (glorifying Jesus is what the Holy Spirit does). They claim all sorts of nonsense about the Holy Spirit and showing false evidences of HIM. Then those who don’t like this extreme go the exact opposite way and are too afraid to even mention the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    We need to show the world what TRUE fullness of the Holy Spirit is and what it looks like as opposed to the nonsense we see out there.

    Back to the subject (this relates to the subject, anyway).

    It IS related to OSAS because if a person is truly born again (like myself) but in naivety goes to a Pentecostal church for a number of years later on, then is it true that they were never saved? This is what has been said because it is claimed that the Holy Spirit would never have led them there. Or it could indicate that they lost their salvation once they went to that church. My point (above) is that I WAS saved and did not lose my salvation because I subsequently went to a Pentecostal church for a period of time, nor was I showing evidence of being unsaved because I attended such a church. I gave my reasons why I went there.

    In any case, when a person is saved they ALL receive a deposit of the Holy Spirit as a seal of their salvation. However, to avoid walking in the flesh, we need to be regularly filled with the Holy Spirit. All of us at times yield to the flesh and sin from time to time. It DOES NOT mean we have lost our salvation. The reason we need to be filled with the Holy Spirit daily is because we CAN walk in the flesh (or even into deception) for a time. IT DOES NOT MEAN we were not saved because we spent a season (long or short) within a faulty evangelical/protestant/charismatic church.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> It IS related to OSAS because if a person is truly born again (like myself) but in naivety goes to a Pentecostal church for a number of years later on, then is it true that they were never saved? This is what has been said…

    NO that is NOT what has been said… RE-READ the comments.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    re your comment 73

    I was referring to comment 38 from Paul where he said:

    “and I keep wondering: was I genuinely saved then? if yes, where was the abiding Holy Spirit of Truth who only leads us into ALL Truth? Where was He? Why did I hear the voice of and followed a stranger? Why did I not flee from the stranger? Why did I not hear the voice of Jesus and did I not follow Him?

    Sincerely, the only true answer I can give today, the only logical conclusion I can give is I DID NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH. And consequently I was NOT saved.”

  • Redeemed

    Methinks there has been a misunderstanding here. I didn’t get the impression that it was stated that one could not be a genuine believer and for a time be involved in a charismaticpentecostal church. The test comes whether or not that person remains there. It has been my experience that there are some good folks who are geninely saved in the Pentecostal churches, but it all comes back to a focus on the external increasing the chances of counterfeits. How OSAS took a detour into charismania and the topic of the infilling of the Holy Spirit I can’t quite figure out. But that is what often happens in conversations and that is what happens in a forum. But I think we need to get back on track.

    But to comment on what John and Carolyn said. John is correct in that people in dead liberal churches found refreshing in the charismatice revival. But they only stepped from the frying pan into the fire in most cases unless it was a stepping stone of sorts that led to a more solid doctrinal belief as in the testimony of John.

    I respectfully disagree with Carolyn about charimatics and “ordinary” churches. I have heard people traveling in charismatic circles make the comment about visiting a Baptist church for example that was simply teaching the Word of God that it was dead. That is because they were enthralled with the “action” and “excitement” of charismania which does not teach sound doctrine but is quite ecumenical. Whereever the Word of God is preached it should not be viewed as “dead” or “dry” because the Word of God is where the power is through the Holy Spirit Who inspired it.

    It is my conviction, having taken a little detour into charismania that it is a very slippery slope. I also attended a pentecostal church for a time and it too was a very slippery slope and those who go there do so at their own peril. In fact now that church has become more and more like the world, entertaining false teachers and embracing worldly traditions and activities.

    True, there are some “ordinary” churches that ARE “dead” but it is not because they are cessationist. It is because they put people into bondage under legalism.

    This is a very complicated topic with many facets. I think it is more edifying to focus on the elements of sound doctrine that are being trampled under today such as the “P” in TULIP that started this thread. This is a mainstream error that needs to be exposed.

    I do praise the Lord for preserving us as believers on this journey called life. Each has their own testimony or account of where they have been. What counts is where we are TODAY and how reflecting on where we have been shows the grace of God to keep us. It also give us the “credentials” to minister truth to others as we can say “been there, done that”. We are kept secure NOT because we were hand-picked but because when God seals us for redemption He keeps us and to Him goes all honor and glory.

  • Redeemed

    P.S. Apologies – this is an annoying habit.

    Each believer experiences an ebb and flow in their lives. At times we are on a mountaintop but there are also valleys. Hopefully as we mature we will walk on more level ground. This is why charismatic/pentecostal teaching is risky because it tries to maintain a “high” that is dependent upon emotions. When that high is not maintained it results in a crash and burn. It also encourages people to “fake it” to go along with the crowd. There was certainly a time when pentecostals were not so extreme and offbase, but the seeds were present and ready to germinate when the time was right and the union between charismatic/pentecostal belief was inevitable except for the holiness groups who were more about the legalism of externals.

  • Carolyn

    Debs re #72…nope…that’s not what I meant either. I was not clear on my thoughts. I know exactly what WOF doctrine is. I was saturated in it. And I agree that it is basic witchcraft.

    What I meant was that the very word “orthodoxy” scares this Charismatic individual. He/she understands orthodoxy to be dull, boring, lifeless, plain, “without the Spirit”, lifeless…doctrine. The opposite is true. Doctrine that is orthodox in Truth, is vital, alive, compelling, convicting, regenerating, sanctifying, giving peace, faith, hope…and so much more.

    So what I was saying is that the Charismatic who comes out of Charismania may take a longer time to see that it is his own belief system that was to blame and not the orthodoxy in the church since he has been conditioned to believe that high flying spiritual experiences, big energy preaching and gifts and manifestations are the real life of Christianity.

    The opposite is true.

    @ John. are we talking about maturing in our faith? If so, the Lord is the director of our learning/unlearning. There is so much to unlearn, I found it took me a much longer time to untangle myself from all the teachings than it took me to learn them in the first place. But getting out of the Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches was the first step in the right direction.

    I believe you were saved when you went back to the Pentecostal Church. Old habits die hard. :-) And I understand that there have been some good old time “Word oriented” Pentecostal Bible Scholars. I leave them and their faith with the Lord. Yes, in the last few years there has been a great upheaval in the AOG/Pentecostal Churches. And unfortunately, none of the other denominations have escaped the shake-up either. No time for smugness these days.

    Today, the very thought of going to a Pentecostal Church does not sit well with me. The fullness of the Holy Spirit is something that I find in following the Scriptures. I have a deeper faith, more solid character, more settled hope and a more sound doctrine. As for the gifts of the Spirit, I won’t take the course. The gifts will be distributed to me when and where they are needed, as the Holy Spirit wills.

    I’m conflicted on the whole “fullness of the Holy Spirit” teaching so I am one that has swung to the opposite extreme. I’ll take the Scripture, thanks! And nothing but. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit. I do take prayer seriously; waiting and watching in prayer…but I have ceased speaking in tongues and I pay no heed to dreams and visions.

    As you can see, I have all the boldness that I need. In the natural I am a rather sweet, little, timid pussycat. But in the power of the Spirit…well…I have no fear to speak up when spoken to.

  • Sue

    Hello John
    Judging by what both you and Deborah have said, you WERE BOTH saved at the earlier date. We aren’t saved by ‘feelings’ or ‘experiences’ but by God’s Grace through faith. NOT by ‘evidence giving works’. We aren’t told, or expected to clean up our lives to the satisfaction of Pietism, before we are saved. It is a decision we make based on the Gospel knowledge we are given. Romans 10 explains the need to audibly hear the Gospel – so faith comes by hearing, whether in error or in truth, the Gospel is proclaimed, whether they hear or refuse to hear. KAAT is the long accepted definition of Faith/believe; so Faith comes by Knowledge of the Cross with the Acceptance of the free gift and the Assurance it will be as we have been told by Trusting God to keep His word and saved by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ Jesus. Hyper Calvinism has added to God’s Word claiming our good works is evidence of Salvation. That is totally false, there are NO conditions for Salvation except faith/believe and there are NOT two types of faith called ‘ordinary or saving’. There is only KAAT.By faith alone by Christ alone.

    WHERE we are saved is irrelevant, it is what we hear, the Gospel of the solution for sin that counts. It is the acceptance of the words of Christ by Gods GRACE that saves us. When we are lost in sin, we have no understanding of what is good or bad teaching in any particular church because we have no spirit to discern spiritual matters. Once we believe/faith in Christ, we are instantly given a brand new human spirit wherein dwells the Holy Spirit. This new spirit makes us open to what the Spirit of God is saying as spiritual matters can only be discerned spiritually. If you thought you once put your faith in Christ, then why doubt that at that moment in time, Christ bought you from the slave market of sin and the seed of eternal life was planted.

    It takes years for any newly planted seed to grow, you don’t expect to pick fruit off an apple shoot, it has to grow first before we can go to it and expect to pluck fruit for nourishment. From the time the seed takes root; that begins the process of sanctification, GROWING into Christ. After a while the young plant may feel in need of greater nourishment as it feels its growth is being stunted – that’s when we may move to another church where they feed from God’s written word. It opens your eyes to deeper truth and you may suppose you are only now genuinely saved – not so, it is the slow process of sanctification that has brought you out into more nourishment with God’s written Word. Don’t despise the days of small beginnings. You are older, and wiser, in the Lord than you have supposed!

  • Carolyn

    @ Paul…just a continuation of my thoughts #69 on my Damascus Road Experience…

    I’m wondering if it was my Damascus Road Experience because it was the suffering I endured after the commitment to Truth that took me from practicing my religion to taking up my cross and following Christ. The cost was great because I “saw” error and I made a federal case about the false “words” of the prophet comparing them to the words of the Scripture.

    I had the scales removed from my eyes and I saw blatant rejection of Scriptural Truth among those who should have known better, in favour of experience. It was like talking to people who had suddenly become blind and deaf strangers. They could not “hear” or “see” what the Truth was even though many of them were well schooled in the Word. It was truly baffling. After that I have no doubt about the ability of the enemy to blind minds and create delusion.

    So there is a cost of following Jesus, there is a narrow road and there is a cross to bear.

    @ Redeemed and Debs…re #50 and #52 – speaking of detours. Yes, there are certainly detours in the Christian life. I don’t think we will comprehend everything until we reach the other side. Like Paul’s thorn in the flesh…was it a messenger, an evil spirit sent to buffet him, to separate him from his faith in God? …that’s my take.

    Speaking of my trials, sometimes I have caved on issues and temptations because I have failed to remain true to the Word…we instead, take other criteria into consideration. And sometimes, I haven’t failed, but I still end up looking really bad…sort of like Job.

    I know the Lord is faithful to discipline us when we detour…

    Job 2:3
    Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

    James 5:10-12
    11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

    In the end, through all of life’s trials and temptations, will our integrity/faithfulness to God remain intact? That’s what sets us apart from pretenders. The Lord’s faithfulness is never in question…just the reality of OUR faith/belief/trust/obedience.

    I’m the first to admit…I don’t know everything. Life is a journey…walking it with God has been the best thing in my life. And it’s always good to walk with others who feel the same way. I seem to walk a lonely road for the most part, but here and there I find someone on the pathway with like faith. God leads…we follow. With respect to eternity, it’s a brief walk.

    Maranatha!

  • I will add one very important thing I left out in my comment #45 which is THE FEAR OF MAN (and a corollary to it which is THE DESIRE TO PLEASE MAN)

    Prov 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

    If God says that he who fears man is NOT safe but prey to Satan’s snare, methinks that person is not saved.

    So I was self-deceived and deceived by a stranger because:
    -I trusted (believed) in man
    -I feared man
    -I blindly followed man
    -I was gullible
    -I took the words of man as if they were from God
    –> I had made man into a god, breaking the first commandment. It doesn’t matter if I “believed” I was trusting/following Jesus at the same time.
    That was my situation. Actually, I got kind of “brainwashed”. Add to that the impossibility to reconcile Scriptures like John 16:13, John 8:31-32, John 10:5, John 10:27, Matt 24:24 and I find that it was impossible that I had the indwelling Holy Spirit of Truth.

    My situation is certainly different from that of many here (Carolyn,John) though there are similarities.

    It has been my observation that most people are paralyzed by the fear of man.

  • @Carolyn,

    First we have to decide for truth. I made an honest commitment to Truth. I remember the day, where I was standing and how I felt. It may have been my Damascus Light experience. I saw my own propensity for deceptive leanings. I saw the difference between Truth and self dishonesty. One brings light to the soul while the other brings blindness. When presented by God with the option…I chose Truth. It was shortly after that experience that everything else happened.

    You nailed it Carolyn. Commitment to the Truth (Jesus Christ) at all cost. That’s the commitment I took in June 2011, against all odds, and I believe that is when I got saved.

    I would say that the Holy Spirit did not have you because you were not obeying Him.

    God gives the Holy Spirit only to those that obey Him by being committed to the Truth.

    Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    So you see, since I was not obeying Him, I did not have Him.

  • Sue

    Redeemed posted

    “ There is way too much “easy believism” going around that results in false professions without counting the cost of being identified with Jesus Christ.
    The Gospel is simple to understand, there is a cost involved.
    I like this message from John R. Rice’s book What It Costs to Be a Good Christian. It is an audio from a site where many of Bro. Rice’s sermons can be heard. I always hestitate to send someone to a site because every jot and title may not be right. So please use discernment always. There are some real gems here and some old-fashioned preachin’ that we surely could use in our day.”

    My ‘discernment’ reaction to both the message and your words ‘easy believism’,’false profession’,’not counting the cost’, ‘only one cost’ ‘what it costs’….is ‘HYPER Calvinism’s, Lordship Salvation’ that changes God’s Free Gift of Salvation, into an experiential WORK, thus denying God’s Grace and Christ’s Sacrifice ALONE to deliver from Sin.

    What cost? – Gods Grace is FREE. There is only one CONDITION given to be Justified, and that is Pistis – faith/believe.

    Justification is the FIRST stage for Salvation when the seed takes root in whatever soil it is given and a new human spirit is given.(Past tense – SAVED)

    Sanctification is the SECOND stage for Salvation when GROWTH is ABLE to begin by the indwelling Holy Spirit within the new human spirit. (Present tense – BEING SAVED)

    GLORIFICATION is the third and final stage for Salvation when we shall see Him (living and resurrected dead) at the Rapture when we shall finally be PERFECT (Future tense – PERFECTION.)

    It’s the usual Calvinist confusion between Justification and Sanctification that is insisting on a ‘work’ to be Justified.

    Sanctification = GROWTH. Some do, some don’t, from Justification to glorification i.e. GROW!.
    Whether they do or they don’t makes NO DIFFERENCE to the legal fact that they are JUSTIFIED wearing the freely exchanged divine RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ. ALL sin was paid for IN FULL at the cross. Sin is no longer an issue. Pistis -faith/believe FOR Justification and IN Sanctification until we are Glorified is the issue.

    The Judgment Seat of Christ will give or remove awards according to our WORKS done in the Holy Spirit, or in the flesh, (hay, wood and stubble for burning)SAVED, yet through fire.

    Maranatha

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sue said:

    >> Judging by what both you and Deborah have said, you WERE BOTH saved at the earlier date. We aren’t saved by ‘feelings’ or ‘experiences’ but by God’s Grace through faith. NOT by ‘evidence giving works’. We aren’t told, or expected to clean up our lives to the satisfaction of Pietism, before we are saved. It is a decision we make based on the Gospel knowledge we are given. Romans 10 explains the need to audibly hear the Gospel ……..WHERE we are saved is irrelevant, it is what we hear, the Gospel of the solution for sin that counts.

    Oh my goodness *bows head in shame* I have to ask forgiveness to everyone on under this article. John and Paul please ignore everything I have said – it’s in error. I’ve done a lot of praying about this yesterday and today and I come back humbly ask forgiveness. I too was genuinely saved at the age of 9 and the Holy Spirit was with me the whole time of my life ‘convicting’ me! Even when I was in the occult, the Holy Spirit was there convicting me, telling me this its wrong and that I need repent and to turn to Jesus. It’s only at the age on 30 that I changed my ways, asked Jesus for forgiveness of everything I had done and picked up my cross and followed Him. It was then everything in my life came right and I understood what salvation actually meant. Yes I too was dragged into the false church system and I believed it to be Christian – but then I started to study the bible and I wanted to know what the truth was instead of being told by someone else. And this is where the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the truth.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Carolyn

    re your comments on 79:

    You mentioned that you were replying to my comment 72. However, you would not have seen my reply 74 (to Debs 73) BEFORE you wrote your reply because it took one full day to get published. So please read 74 to clarify my comment 72.

    You said some things in 79 above that triggered some thoughts in my mind. You said “my Damascus Road Experience” and “I had the scales removed from my eyes”.

    Those words reminded me of the timing of Paul’s conversion. When was Paul saved? Was it when he met the Lord on the road to Damascus or 3 days later (Acts 9:9) after Ananias laid hands on him to receive the Holy Spirit?

    Then, What about those in Ephesus in Acts 19:1 Paul said “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

    It says they BELIEVED before they received the Holy Spirit.

    As Sue correctly pointed out; salvation comes the moment we believe.

    Is Paul referring to a deposit (seal) of the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:1 “believed” or a fullness. If Paul says in Romans 8:9 “Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” then those Ephesians could not have been saved and yet it says they were already believers.

    The conclusion MUST be that they DID have the Holy Spirit but had not yet been FILLED with the Holy Spirit which CAN come later as p[art of the sanctification work of God in believers. Please understand that I AM NOT talking about tongues or charismania mumbo jumbo, here or the false teaching of Pentecostal churches. I am simply stating what the BIBLE says.

    Paul remained blind UNTIL he was enlightened by receiving the Holy Spirit in fullness. However, his blindness only partially disappeared after 3 days.

    We read that he went into the desert for 3 years learning the truth about Jesus, I assume “undoing” all the false teaching he had received whilst being a Pharisee.

    So when was Paul saved and when were the Ephesians saved? How does it apply to those of us who were saved (or even continued) under faulty teaching? Can we apply the examples of Paul and the Ephesians to that question?

  • John Chingford

    Carolyn

    Sorry, I referred to your comment 79 as a reply to mine. Please note, that should have read “77″. However, the rest of my reply above WAS referring to 79.

  • John Chingford

    Dear Sue

    I have known Redeemed long enough to know what she means by “easy believerism”. There is a distinction between simply believing the gospel and therefore receiving salvation as opposed to the Joel Osteen, Rick Warren way of salvation which is NOT actually belief in the gospel at all.

    You are correct that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith alone.

    My question is “do those who are ‘saved’ at ‘seeker sensitive’ churches REALLY believe?”. The gospel that is presented to them is a false, shallow all encompassing gospel which is a “wide way” to salvation. True faith responds to what you believe. Do these hearers REALLY believe that they are sinners who are perishing, going to hell and who realise they NEED to be saved who believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father and the ONLY way to be saved and that His blood is sufficient to cleanse them from their sins?

    Faith is ALL you need, but surely faith includes putting your trust/dependency on Jesus for that initial salvation? If you simply say the words “I believe” but your heart is far from God, then that person does not really believe and is therefore not saved or justified.

  • Thanks Sue for helping us see our error in mistaking justification for sanctification.

    So what I said earlier, that “I was genuinely saved, and God knew my heart, that is why He took me out of there, and out of all the deceptions.” is true.

    Are false doctrines, heresies, damnable heresies the same thing as “works”?
    Are all the false teachers out there who have professed KAAT saved? Are their blind followers saved? Could we say that if someone truly saved is following these false teachers, he will of necessity sooner or later see and flee from them?

    There are still many questions unanswered in my mind regarding false teachings, false teachers, false doctrines, wolves in sheep clothing and their followers, suppression of the truth from pulpits, willful compromise of the truth…

  • Redeemed

    Sister Sue, clearly you misunderstood what I was saying or I did not make myself clear. Please allow me to clarify.

    Firstly, I am adamantly opposed to Calvinist/Reformed theology and Lordship Salvation taught by John MacArthur and others.

    Yes, of course salvation is a GIFT. A gift DOES cost the GIVER, but the recipient does not pay for a gift. All one has to do is RECEIVE the gift and understand what the gift is.

    The Gospel is a simple message all can understand. But it has been twisted, perverted
    compromised and watered-down. A false gospel does not, cannot save. There are some who say that one can be a practicing Mormon and be a born-again Christian. Then there is the ecumenical gospel that is all encompassing.

    The Bible says we are not saved by works, but we are saved for good works. Some new believers have the benefit of being discipled and grounded in the faith and grow but others due to circumstances are left to fend for themselves to stumble forward.

    Too many Christians take their Christian walk too lightly and subscribe to “greasy grace”. To follow Christ in faithful service DOES have a price tag attached. It requires us to give up our pride, perhaps our status, our financial gain or assets, earthly comforts
    and other things we hold dear in an earthly sense. The disciples were told to leave their livelihood behind and follow Jesus. Martyrs who refused to deny Christ gave their lives and many suffered in the process.

    Christians who chose wrongly and sin will be chastened because God says He will discipline those who are His. Being taken to God’s woodshed is not pleasant, but it is
    for our own good. He does it out of love, much more so than the best earthly parent.

    This is what I meant to say and I hope that this is adequate clarification. We are to consider the COST our Savior paid to obtain our salvation and it should cause us to desire to serve Him out of love and gratitude for what He has done for us.

    You are right, faithful service will be rewarded at the Bema Seat. But even then, we will cast our crowns before Him because He is worthy of all honor and glory and we owe ALL to Him.

  • I must admit that during these years in deception, the Holy Spirit DID point to me from time to time certain things that were wrong or false in the doctrines and the system(I am not talking about works of my flesh). Each time I either rationalized, glossed over or silenced the Holy Spirit (i.e. did not act on the prompting of the HS) because:
    (1) we were taught to obey and follow the leader even if he’s wrong (that it’s God’s business to deal with him if he’s wrong)
    (2) I was too trusting, i.e. “he can’t be wrong”, “he’s too spiritual”, “he looks so perfect”, “he’s too close to God”, “if he says God told him, then it must be true”
    (3) I feared man (this is probably the biggest thing)
    (4) Everybody else was following without questioning

    Well, eventually the Holy Spirit’s promptings became less and less frequent and less and less audible.

    That is what I call brainwashing.

  • TruthfulConversation

    Debs,

    That post you made above, I gave my heart to Jesus at age nine too, and that was my story too, only it took me longer :-)

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Hi,

    I read through most of this post and see a whole lot of people worried about the CREATURE. And salvation is complete through our CREATOR. Carolyns friend is saved to the end if he ever believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for his salvation PERIOD. I dont care if He turned into Jack the ripper! Carolyns friend never had the power to save himself right?

    Carolyns friend does not have the power to unsave himself either! Because salvation is never based on the creature, it is based entirely on the CREATOR. Justification is faith alone in Christ alone, sanctification is positive volition to the Spirit after Justification. Once Justified always justified!

    Based on the character and nature of our CREATOR. My guess is that Carolyns friend IS saved. And He chose to follow his flesh instead of the CREATOR.

    I base this on the kind of pastors we have today in most all of our churchs. They will focus on the CREATURES CONDITION and POUND that home. And hardly ever teach the CREATURE about his POSITION he now has in Christ. If we hear about our CONDITION all of our lives ,satan wins and the creature will focus on his condition and find its a losing battle if the creature never learns of his new POSITION in Christ. Our POSITION in Christ is the only means to clean up our CONDITION. and hardly a pastor out there teachs the POSITION we have in Christ! Its no wonder we are seeing true believers living in their CONDITION all their lives!

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Carolyn,
    You said,”For myself, I am grateful for God’s grace and assurance of Salvation. I am grateful for the Holy Spirit’s seal, his promise of eternal life, his Presence, his life as I continue in the vine. But I cannot take Him for granted. Like any relationship, it doesn’t follow that my own choice is now dead. I could at some point, decide that the narrow way of Christ is no longer for me. If I refuse to abide in the vine, I will disconnect myself from the source of nutrients, I will wither and die. And I will be cast out. That’s Scriptural. If the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I choose to listen and repent, I will be saved. That’s also Scriptural.”

    Look close at what you said.
    You start with Grace and later deny it in this short paragraph. Grace is not Grace if it is not wholly Free, if the CREATURE can at some point lose Grace then your definition of grace is not biblical Grace. John 5:24

    You say you have assurance of salvation then in the next few sentences you deny it. Your definition of assurance is not the biblical definition of assurance.

    John 5:24 is our Dogmatic scripture stated by Christ himself, we examine this scripture and if we find a verse that seems to contradict John 5:24 then we are reading that verse wrong!
    JOH 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

    The first two words in this sentence are very important to understand. When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. The phrase, “Truly, truly” or “Amen, amen” is used 25 times in the Bible, all found in the Gospel of Joh. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    JOH 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

    In the original Greek, the word erchomai, translated come in the present tense, means that the scenario is habitually true or keeps on being true. The middle voice indicates that someone else has done the work, and the one who believes benefits from it. The indicative mood indicates that the statement is dogmatic and absolutely true! In fact, with “Truly, truly” or “Amen, amen” at the beginning of this statement, it becomes blasphemous for any believer to even think that someone can lose their salvation! What it does not say is that you may hope to have eternal life, providing that you continue to be faithful, or if you perform some series of works, as some believe.

    Notice the last phrase, “but has passed out of death into life.” The word, but, is the subordinating conjunction alla, which can be translated because or on the other hand. What is meant by a subordinating conjunction? A subordinating conjunction determines the reason why the action of the main verb is true and it does so by setting up a contrast. The main verb here is, does not come into judgment, followed by the conjunction alla, but has passed out of death into life.”

    The reason that a believer can never be judged or lose his salvation is given with the word metabebeken,meaning to pass over from one place to another, to be totally removed, to totally depart. The perfect tense with an indicative mood is a dogmatic way of referring to eternal security. The moment one believes, he has already passed from death to life, and is not able to pass from life back to death, thereby losing his salvation. The Word of God is crystal clear on this; in JOH 5:24 the Lord Jesus Christ Himself declares that the moment an individual believes, he “has passed out of death into life.”

    I am sorry for posting so much, but what hope do we have as Christians if we DO NOT have eternal security as a solid belief in our lives. what can we offer the lost if we are running around telling people that we have to keep ourselves saved!They just as well stay were they are and fight sin on there own! Now we are telling them that they should come around a bunch of judgmental people and we will show them what they can or can not do to keep on being saved(I would like to see that list!)! I would rather stay in the world.

    Jesus came to save sinners, He died for sinners. I am a sinner and He died for me! If ANYONE believes that, ANYONE, that sinner is saved FOREVER no matter what that sinner behaves like after that belief. Now that is GOOD NEWS.

    the indwelling of the Spirit(eternal security) is very different from fellowship with the spirit. He always, always,and always indwells the believer.But we can quench and grieve or be in fellowship with that constant indwelling Spirit.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    And if your first thought is,” So you are teaching people that they can just go out and live like hell?”

    I would question you if you truly know Grace. Because someone who has tasted Grace from Christ would know that that is not the first inclination of a truly born again Christian.

  • Keep it Simple

    Thought someone might have something to say about comment #68.

  • Carolyn

    That’s some good preachin’ Sister Sue. You are right…there is NO cost to the gift of Salvation. And for that we are eternally grateful. The cost is in discipleship. Sometimes we try and smudge the lines between the two. But they are totally separate.

    There is still the issue of so called Christians sinning. Whether they were real Christians or not, the fact remains:
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Personally, I still see many places in the Scriptures where people that fall away had some kind of seed of faith planted in them. Was their faith genuine?…probably not, because they failed the test…in time of trouble.

    Hebrews 12:16
    See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

    Matthew 13:20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

    Debs…it’s Christmas. We’ll cut you some slack. (grinning)…We are all learning as we go. I may say something amazing today and tomorrow I could say something that would dumbfound the whole Christian community by its absurdity. And I no doubt have done that very thing…so you are among humans who don’t say everything right. You’re forgiven…alas….more than forgiven….loved!

  • Carolyn

    I found this little blurb on this site in keeping with what I was trying to say above about discipleship:

    http://stempublishing.com/magazines/cf/1897/Faith-and-Discipleship.html

    Quote“Faith and discipleship are intimately connected, and yet are quite distinct the one from the other. Indeed, faith must necessarily precede discipleship if the latter is to be genuine. That there may be a great profession of discipleship without faith is clearly shown in the Word, and borne witness to by the history of ages. But it is worse than valueless; it is a deception and a snare – “without faith it is impossible to please Him.”

    If you put the works first, then faith in Christ is not the energy/power fuelling the works. But if you put the faith first, then the genuine faith will be the energy/power supporting the works/discipleship. I can see the worldling getting all fired up with emotion in following a false Jesus, be it the Catholic Jesus, the Charismatic Jesus or the Calvinistic Jesus, for example. …and Satan has a free hand with immorality, idolatry and the like in their lives because there is no genuine faith in the power of God. Their faith is in the works that they do, the men they trust and the religious spirits/deceptions they follow.

    2 Timothy 3:4-6
    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    Quote: “Only then can the path of discipleship be really accepted and maintained, and indeed its maintenance can only be, in the energy of faith, sustained by communion with God as to all that He sets before His people – by His Word speaking to the heart, and revealing the end of the path, even coming glory.”

  • Jarrod Kruger

    And Debs,

    you said,”These are people who can speak Jesus’ name, they go to church, even have big ministries teaching people the bible and they sound so intelligent, but they have not been REGENERATED, because they refuse to give up their sinful ways, they refuse to pick up their cross and follow Jesus.”

    I simply disagree. these people are not saved IF they have refused to BELIEVE in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation. This statement is Lordship salvation.Not one person has EVER turned from all sin. we have sin that we are not even aware of! only the Lord knows. And if we were to turn from all of our sin, where is that list for each and every individual? And if we dont have to turn from all sin, what sin is ok not to turn from?

    Repent means to turn from your Unbelief.

    There is NO unpardonable sin for the believer.

    and there is only ONE unpardonable sin for the unbeliever. john 16:9 concerning SIN because they do not BELIEVE in Me.

  • Carolyn

    Here’s my final install on the discipleship comment. I believe I can make the bold statement that:

    If we begin with the correct Biblical gospel, then our discipleship will be correct. If we begin with discipleship…be it IHOP, NOLR, Dominionism, Perseverance of the saints, a “Mother Teresa kind of good works” or an ecumenical Rick Warren kind of good works…even if we reach the whole world…we have the wrong gospel. If we begin with the gospel according to Jesus and the Apostles, and we remain in it, then we will have the right discipleship.

    2 John 1:9
    Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Redeemed,

    I know you probably know this but i want to be crystal clear here.

    You said,”I liked the way he described that there is a cost be BEING a Christian and the distinction between that and receiving the FREE gift of salvation.

    The only cost to being a Christian is the huge cost the Lord paid for sinners.

    There is not a cost for us Christians to be Christians. The Lord paid that price.

    Being a Christian costs us NOTHING, it cost Jesus His life and cost the Father His son.

    It does not even cost us anything to live the Christian life! It just feels like it because living the Christian life is totally against our Flesh and the world.

  • John Chingford

    Dear Carolyn

    Did you read my comments on 62 and SPECIFICALLY look at the links I left?

    It seems like you haven’t because you did not reply to me. I would be interested to hear your thoughts AFTER you have read it all.

    This is what I wrote:

    “Carolyn, I wrote an article covering this entitled:

    “Why True Believers Are Eternally Secure In Their Salvation” on:

    [removed]

    Please read the article AND the comments. Together they give a direct response to your concerns. Please always remember to put ALL isolated scripture verses into the context of the WHOLE picture of salvation (and God’s eternal plan of salvation) as shown by the WHOLE bible put together. If we do that, then isolated verses can be explained better. The above article seeks to do that.

    Please also note that subsequent to August 2010 I have learnt that I was wrong in my understanding of repentance. So the comment I made “Point I am making is that the moment we repented, turned from our selfish/sinful ways and gave our lives to Jesus, we were asking Jesus to take control of our wills.” needs to be slightly changed to:

    “Point I am making is that the moment we repented, (changed our minds) being convicted about our sinful condition and gave our lives to Jesus, we were asking Jesus to take control of our wills.”

    In response to the cost of being saved, my full reply can be found on my article:

    “What Is Repentance?” found on:
    [removed]

    Carolyn, please read these because it surely will prove that OSAS IS correct.

    God bless

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jarrod Kruger

    Yes you are right, I am wrong, I have made a few mistakes under this thread. I ask forgiveness :( *sighs*

  • Redeemed

    My, didn’t I make myself clear? Salvation is a FREE gift. But if we are to live for the Lord it will COST us something – a sacrifice of our comforts, resources, etc. There are those who subscribe to “cheap grace”.

    Jerrod, the Bible says we are saved for good works. Read James. We don’t serve out of obligation, but rather out of GRATITUDE for whet He has done for us. Legalism is just the opposite.

    If I sound a bit frustrated it is because I have got this ugly bug that is making the rounds. So don’t have chapter and verse on this, so if someone could help me out? We are not saved BY good works, but we ARE saved FOR good works.

    There are people who take their salvation for granted and think it gives them a license to sin. Comprehendo?

  • Redeemed

    Debs, this is a good thread. It exposes the false teaching of the “P” in TULIP and explains the true doctrine of security of the believer.

    If it got a bit off track that’s not your fault. This topic will naturally bring a lot of questions to the table. This is needed teaching. Some sincere Christians sin and think they have lost their salvation and crash and burn. Then there are others who go merrily on their way, not exercising discernment and fall into the ditch.

    We don’t keep our salvation by works, but we are called to good works.

    Keep up the good work!

  • John Chingford

    Confusions tend to set in because of the following reasons:

    1) time gaps between comments being published (last time comments were published were 2 full days ago and prior to that one whole day) because Debs has not been well.

    2) further irrelevant comments have been made because writers have not seen the replies yet and written as if there had been no replies

    3) like a highway motor crash there is a pile up of unpublished comments which can create a confusion crash after a sudden burst of comments published in one go

    4) the pile up of mass comments published in one go can mean that many comments NEVER get read and therefore adds to the confusion.

    I say these things because it is blatantly clear from the replies that not every comment directed to specific individuals has actually been read by those individuals – probably because of the “sudden” pile up, they have been missed.

  • John Chingford

    @ Keep it Simple:
    re 68 and 95

    I made the same point within my article entitled “God HAS Given Us Freewill. It IS Revealed In The Bible”

    [removed]

    This is an excerpt from that article:

    “These preachers state that after Adam and Eve sinned they no longer had freewill. But, what about Cain who came along afterwards?

    Read Genesis 4:6-7 ”So the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.’ “

    Sounds like Cain had freewill???”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> Sounds like Cain had freewill???”

    Definitely.

  • Michael

    Jarrod you have it spot-on…Jesus’s work on the cross is more complete than the dictionary can describe as complete…it goes beyond human understanding and intellect…no theology is wise enough to disprove it.

    We might abuse our grace because we are weak…sickness, mental or physical or even alcoholism but this is only because of our weaknesses’ or infirmities…it is simply a condition that is a result of sin…not an excuse…if you are TRULY BORN again and caught up in sin then you suffer hell on earth and will never BE COMFORTABLE until you repent and sincerely ask Him for His Strength to overcome.
    When you surrender your life to Christ He sends His Holy Spirit to teach, comfort and guide you. You will always know you are a sinner and never be complete and happy until you start asking Him deep in your heart to help you overcome.

  • Truthful Conversation

    Hey everyone,

    I have really enjoyed reading all the posts, and it has been good to see TRUE Christians debating and talking with each other, in a spirit of love and patience.

    This is a great thread Debs, and I know I have learned from what has been posted.

    I understood what Redeemed was saying as I know what she believes, as does John and Debs, but it just goes to show how easily one can become confused. We have to constantly be alert and discerning. It also shows how very important it is to be consistent in reading the scripture, and NEVER to take the words of man over those of God.

    Jarrod, I do not think I have seen you here before, but I was very pleased to see your comments and thoughts. You obviously know the scriptures well.

    I pray that we will all learn and grow together in this new year.

    God bless.

  • Keep it Simple

    Thank you John. I read your article, great. Thank you also Deborah. I just needed conformation. Freewill is so clearly revealed here that only the intellectually arrogant would refuse to accept it.

  • Redeemed

    Michael, you summed it up well. Our Lord offers a GIFT of such proportions that it cannot be measured or fully explained. He paid the FULL price for our redemption – no greater love has ever been demonstrated and to spurn such a gift is to reject the God of the universe.

    When He hung on that cross He knew exactly what each one of us would do in our lives from A to Z. He forgave our sins, past, present and future.

    He knows our frailties. But if one lives for Christ one will suffer. And if one does NOT obey the Lord one will suffer the consequences of discipline of a loving Father.

    Grace and peace to all who have posted here.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Redeemed,

    I hear ya! I am in complete agreement. Its just that we have some people on this thread that have it blurred. Those works are miles away from their eternal salvation(Justification) so I was saying that for their walk.

    I just know that this subject is todays most hotly contested subject in Christiandom.

    And there are people reading this that are on the fence so to speak. And Salvation is first and formost for the unbeliever. And eternal Security is under such attack by the kingdom of darkness,and eternal security is a great part of our joy!

    I personally will draw very clear lines between works and salvation for the new believer.

    We are commissioned to Spread the Good news of the Gospel(divine works) and that is salvation for the lost. And we all need a very solid Grasp on true salvation to present it to the lost.

    We have so many preachers,books,tv shows,you tube and internet articles teaching that those works are a part of their salvation.That we need to be very clear to people that those have NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation.

    I personally do not worry about “cheap grace” much, If that person wants to believe that,so be it, as long as they believe in Christ alone. Now they have the Holy Spirit to teach them that it was NOT CHEAP.

    And I think that the term “cheap Grace” came to us by the kingdom of darkness to throw us off track. Because it is “easy” for us to obtain the Free Grace of Christ. And that term was coined to try to change our message of the Simplicity of the Gospel.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Debs,
    I know how frustrating it can be to do what your doing! I thank you for the opportunity to do some mission work on your sight!

    It is nice to see some like minded people out here in this twisted world.

    Thank you for what you are doing and letting me drop in!

    In Christ eternally
    Jarrod Kruger

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Just a thought to all,

    Do not be afraid of the terms “easy believism” or “cheap Grace”.

    these phrases were set up for a reason. They came around from the kingdom of darkness to make us stop preaching the simplicity of the Gospel!

    “easy believism” is what I am! and who ever coined the phrase puts a negative connotation on the phrase, and drags me into the debate of what THEY believe “easy believism” is. And thus distracts me from what The Lord really wants me doing.

    Just keep teaching Faith alone in Christ alone, and dont get sucked into A debate that is set up on the other persons false premise.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jarrod

    >> I know how frustrating it can be to do what your doing! I thank you for the opportunity to do some mission work on your sight!

    Yeah it’s very frustrating and sometimes, I myself, get a bit confused, that I need a helping hand of correction. I don’t realise what I am actually saying until someone points it out. Thank you for pointing it out.

    I’ve not been well that last 2 days and my ‘thinking cap’ has not been screwed on tightly enough ;) I hope by tomorrow that I am back up and running again.

  • Keep it Simple

    Eternal life a gift from God to those who believe,Romans 6:23. Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
    How can you keep by works that which you cannot get by works.

  • Carolyn

    John, I read your articles this morning. Here’s something I picked up from the first one:

    Quote: “True believers who fall into sin will be chastened by their Father (Heb 12:6-11) and disciplined by their local church (1 Cor 5:4-5); but any professing Christians who live in sin and go unpunished, only prove they were never saved in the first place (Heb 12:8) — for ‘‘whoever is born of God does not practise sin’’ (1 John 3:9). Thus, the Bible does not teach that those who profess Christianity but then return to their sinful ways are still ‘guaranteed heaven’. The Bible repeatedly emphasises the fact that “the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Judas exemplifies this truth. That he never lost his salvation is clear from the Lord’s words to the 12 disciples; ‘‘Ye are clean, but not all ’’ (John 13:10). Judas had never been to Christ for cleansing and forgiveness. His actions proved he was an apostate, not a backslider.”

    This paragraph makes perfect sense. I agree. I’m beginning to see a few adjustments needed in my own thinking.

    Personally, I have assurance of salvation. I know that with God’s saving and keeping power, I will never be moved from the hope and promise of eternal life. And I know that works are not involved in the gift of eternal life.

    I got all tangled up in 7th Dad Adventism somewhere along the way for 8 months and getting free of that was when I really understood that it was God’s work to keep me safe, not my own works.

    Galatians 3:3
    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    I’m going pray over the rest of what you said and I will probably have some further comments.

    Thanks for you comments Jarrod…Re your comment to me #92. Your point is made well. I have the certainty of my own salvation. And I could never imagine walking away from God at this point in my life…however, my faith has been tested and tried and purified and refined. When the seed (the Word) was dropped into my heart…I mixed it with faith. Somehow it germinated and sprouted and became a plant. In some people…the seed never matures past the seedling stage because of unbelief /sin that chokes it out. So what I was struggling with was the fact that I THOUGHT that these people were actually saved. But what John says in the paragraph above, if he’s right, returning to their sin, PROVES that they were never saved in the first place. Still thinking Jarrod…have patience….

  • Jarrod Kruger

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):
    I sure hope you get to feeling better!

  • Carolyn

    Hold the fort!. Jarrod…I disagree with you!

    You said in #91 – missed it…just saw it this moment.

    Quote: “I read through most of this post and see a whole lot of people worried about the CREATURE. And salvation is complete through our CREATOR. Carolyns friend is saved to the end if he ever believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for his salvation PERIOD. I dont care if He turned into Jack the ripper! Carolyns friend never had the power to save himself right?”

    Wrong…please re-read :
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[ 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Period. And that is not the only place in Scripture that it says that in no uncertain terms.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hold the fort!. Jarrod…I disagree with you!

    You said in #91 – missed it…just saw it this moment.

    Quote: “I read through most of this post and see a whole lot of people worried about the CREATURE. And salvation is complete through our CREATOR. Carolyns friend is saved to the end if he ever believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for his salvation PERIOD. I dont care if He turned into Jack the ripper! Carolyns friend never had the power to save himself right?”

    Wrong…please re-read :
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[ 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Period. And that is not the only place in Scripture that it says that in no uncertain terms.

    I agree…

    With Salvation comes REPENTANCE of Sin… non-negotiable - we will always be sinners but we as Christians will always be convicted by the Holy Spirit and we will REPENT of our sin when we sin.

  • Carolyn

    Well said, Debs. One of the things that sets the Truth apart from the fictional TULIP doctrine, is that the Truth never distorts the character of God. From the beginning that I studied the TULIP doctrine, the glaring error of showing God to be unjust in not giving man any choice in his destiny was what made me throw it out…baby and all! Yes, it is true that God COULD make all the choices for us and COULD predestinate us to heaven or hell without our consent, but he has chosen to give us choice. He doesn’t want robots serving him, he wants genuine faith.
    Galatians 6:
    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

    I think it remains a mystery to some as to why some people come alive to the things of God (are saved) and some who make the profession (do not have the spiritual flame ignited). They still have no interest. And they are still happy in their sin…

    From my observations over the years, I would say that you get what you want. At one time there was someone who I wanted to become a Christian very badly, and I thought I could pray them and talk them into it but although they prayed the sinner’s prayer, they remained unchanged and unmoved toward spiritual things. In the end, the Lord helped me to see that they didn’t want it. They wanted their own life. And that, m’dear is what they got. Until they want something else, their choice will keep them tied to this world. They will see no need to repent and they will mock God and continue to sow to the flesh.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Thank you both Carolyn and Debs for pointing that out to me.

    Because that very subject needs to be addressed in more detail.

    Paul answers your disagreement in verse 11. The new Creation in Christ.

    It profits them nothing to keep acting in their flesh, because nothing from our flesh will enter the Kingdom. Only our new creation in Christ will Go to the Kingdom. Paul is telling them that the old nature has no way of recieving the Kingdom.

    We have two natures as believers. Rom 7:17

    Paul is basically telling the Corinthians,” why are you guys doing these things? You should know by now that the flesh profits you nothing, you should know by now that that part of you can not see the Kingdom so why are you doing these things?”

    We have all done some of those things that Paul told the Corinthians not to do! Even if we keep on doing it,it is the old man in us that does it, not our new creation. And the old man is not going when we die!

    He was teaching them that the old sin nature will not make it, only the new creation that we get at the point of belief in Christ alone will make it to the Kingdom. So LIVE in the new instead of the old!

    Here is a little study on some verses that are tough.

    From careful study it will be seen that the so-called “insecurity passages” are not such in reality,
    that they do not oppose the positive doctrine of security, and that they seem to teach insecurity
    only when they are misunderstood or misapplied. Certain, of these do not apply to the Christian
    since they belong to another dispensation (Matt. 24:13; Ezk. 33:7, 8; Matt. 18:23-35; 25:30).
    Other passages refer only to false and unregenerate teachers of the “last days” (1 Tim. 4:1, 2; 2
    Pet. 2:1-22; Jude 1:17-19). One passage describes that which is merely a moral reformation
    (Luke 11:24-26). Several of these Scriptures bear on the important fact that Christian profession
    is justified by its fruits. Salvation which is of God will, under normal conditions, prove itself to
    be such by its own fruits (1 John 3:10; John 8:31; 15:6; 2 Pet. 1:10; Jas. 2:14-26; 1 Cor. 15:1, 2;
    Heb. 3:6, 14). In addition to this, there are certain passages that contain warnings which, when
    rightly interpreted, do not imply the insecurity of the believer under grace. Jews are warned that
    since their sacrifices have ceased they must turn to Christ or be lost (Heb. 10:26), in like manner,
    unsaved Jews as well as Gentiles are warned against “falling away” from the illuminating,
    converting work of the Spirit (Heb. 6:4-9). So, also, unspiritual Jews are warned that they will
    not be received into the coming kingdom (Matt. 25:1-13), and Gentiles are given a corporate
    warning which has no reference to the individual believer (Rom. 11:21). Again, the one who is
    saved and safe may lose his reward (1 Cor. 3:15; Col. 1:21-23), and be disapproved concerning
    his service for Christ (1 Cor. 9:27). Likewise, he may lose his fellowship because of sin (1 John
    1:6), and he may be chastened of God (1 Cor. 11:29-32; John 15:2; 1 John 5:16). And, finally, it
    is possible for the believer to “fall from grace” (Gal. 5:1-4), which, however, is never
    accomplished by sinning; for the Christian falls from grace only when he turns from his true
    liberty under grace to the bondage of the law

  • Sue

    Short answers on a BIG subject are fraught with contentions. But I need to try. Please find book, chapter and verse for me, they are there. ;)

    John: All that thinking will frazzle your brain. ;) You will get your answers soon enough. Have you asked your Father to explain by His Spirit? If, you have asked, are you actually expecting Him to answer – He will! For starters, Peter said to Jesus ‘to whom else will I go, only YOU have the Words of Eternal Life’ THE Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation, not any other. Believe what ‘good news’ we fancy, but we will reap only what is sown in us. The Fruit of the Holy Spirit or Rhubarb!

    Paul: Absolutely, all the fierce and sharp things that bump against us are actually approved by the Lord. NOTHING, can test your faith unless the Father wills it to hone you into one of His precious jewels. The other Paul said ‘count it all JOY’ when we come up against Satan’s tricks, he is but a worm given permission to test our metal. Why? To prepare us for our part to play in Eternity (that’s why all this ‘spiritual warfare’ is such tripe! This life is only Boot Camp to earn our stripes. Yes, I said EARN, is that WORKS? Oh yes, those approved, applying the Word and walking in the Holy Spirit, with a promised reward and those disproved, of the flesh, that are going to be burned at the Bema fire.

    Redeemed: Please don’t be offended as I was taking your own advice to discern. ;) Lordship Salvation is a very sneaky little snake that slithers in almost unnoticed until we are wise to it. :) I am choosing not to be offended by the – urgg – ‘greasy grace’ remark, because THAT is also a LS offence against those of us who insist Salvation is by Faith alone; there is nothing ‘greasy’ about the Grace that has saved us from sin. LS put the horse before the cart causing a ‘work’ necessary for Salvation i.e. IF you do sin, you were never saved in the first place = a work extra to faith being ‘sin free’. It can’t be done and isn’t a condition for Salvation. Otherwise my friend, we are on the same page. Praise The Lord and give us a hug. :)

    Jarrod Krugar:”I would question you if you truly know Grace. Because someone who has tasted Grace from Christ would know that that is not the first inclination of a truly born again Christian.

    AMEN JK! Sin is inevitable with our ‘old man’ – BUT – there are serious consequences from a ‘rap on the knuckles’ to premature death. Worse yet is being given over to the rebellious sin we choose to wallow in. If you get this JK, you’re the bro for me. :)

    Caroline: You are my sister in Christ, just like me, there are few knots to untie with the Holy Spirits leading. :)

    Deborah: Dear busy little bee with the sting in her tail – good work in this ‘vineyard’! More pollen (Truth) results in more fruit! I love and respect JP; but he can be very naughty at times. ;)

  • Sue

    @ Carolyn:
    Something for you to consider – entering the Kingdom (the 1000 yr Messianic Rule of Messiah on EARTH) this is NOT the same as entering Heaven! :)

  • Jarrod Kruger

    I just want to encourage everyone to focus on the CREATOR and your new position in Christ and not on the CONDITION of the Creature.

    All of Christiandom focuses on our CONDITION rather than our wonderful and SECURE POSITION in Christ.

    I find it sad that most christians are experts in our depravity, but only know one or two of the 40 or more Grace gifts that we recieve at the moment we believe in Christ. We need teachers out there to teach of the freedom and the security we have have in our position.

    And most of the fruits in Christ(fruits that man wants to see) are not visible to man, but God sees them with out a doubt!

  • Redeemed

    Jarrod, in response to #114;

    I have to disagree. It is very important that the Gospel be presented uncompromingly. I know one person who thinks presenting the Gospel is saying to the person – Jesus loves you – do you want to accept Him? Anyone who accepts such a perverted “gospel” and this is what I meant by “easy believism”. Believing in a watered-down “gospel”. There is no salvation in such a “gospel”.

  • Redeemed

    @ Jarrod Kruger:
    The term “cheap grace” does not refer to the actuality of God’s unspeakable grace. No, it refers to those who fail to appreciate what Christ has done for them and this is their attitude toward God’s grace, not treating it as something precious like a perfect diamond, something of value. If they did they would hate their sin as Christ does and desire to serve Him and cut anything out of their lives that is offensive to him.

  • Faith

    Jarrod,
    How come I am seeing you everywhere. :)
    You are exactly right Jarrod with your analysis. If we do not rest solely on the POWER of Christs death for us- what good is it? His death is what saved us from death (law) and yet many keep trying to bring death (law) back. Do we not trust in Him to keep us eternally secure? Unfortunately, we do not have sermons on security or rewards in heaven. Oh am I so glad that I got away from these lies. I was also saved at nine, but veered away. Some of the fault went to my parents who did not disciple me properly. This is the key- MOST are not properly discipled. Most end up staying like babes- staying on milk, not eating meat. I did not truly realize the Holy Spirits work until I went through depression; but the growth took years and still going. Each sin of mine the Holy Spirit started convicting, but I had to listen and obey. This is what is co-laboring. We are to co-labor with Christ; when we stop then we cannot grow. This has nothing to do with our justification, but all to do with our sanctification.
    When Christ wanted to deal with guilt in my life He convicted, but my change did not take over automatically; it was a process. But one day I was sitting on my couch and the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and told me that was it- He would take over this area of sin. I still struggle with guilt sometimes but I know the quickening of the HS and how to deal with it.
    This is why I get infuriated with many pastors and leaders today because they are teaching a WORKS “gospel” and many Christians are burdened and in despair because they cannot meet the standards- Any HOW can they?? We can rest in Christ.

  • Faith

    Debra
    I know you have never seen me on this site, but I do come on regularly to read and enjoy your posts. I appreciate your heartfelt apology- :)

  • Michael

    Jarod, I understand the point and truth of what you were trying to put across but one must be very careful of sending out the wrong context…I know this is a misunderstood concept of true grace but with salvation comes choice. I believe that in every person’s life there comes a crossroad when God(Holy Spirit) speaks into our sinful lost unregenerated state and reveals the message of the cross and we either respond positively or negatively. If we respond positively we will be truely converted and convicted of our sin…we will no longer like,love or be comfortable in sin. There is a strong desire to climb out of the pit whereas in the world there is no such desire. Human nature loves sin as long as it is disguised in some form of acceptable norm.

    But your quote “Carolyns friend is saved to the end if he ever believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for his salvation PERIOD. I dont care if He turned into Jack the ripper! Carolyns friend never had the power to save himself right?” sends out the wrong message.

    It’s true that our salvation does NOT DEPEND on any scorecard of good works…neither does it depend on repentance but repentance will always come when we get truly saved. If one understands that is our sins and iniquities that put our Saviour on the cross and how much He suffered how is it possible to tolerate any sin at all.

    All sin is sin but there definitely is a HIDDEN STATE of sin that only God knows but a person that continues to harm others cannot have been truly converted and born-again.

    You have posted intelligent and some revealing truths. But your comment in 91 can be misunderstood and send out the wrong message especially with younger Christians who are battling with truths today.

  • Carolyn

    Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion.”[c]
    16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?

    John, I have read your article again. I’m sorry you have not convinced me that we cannot turn away from God in unbelief. Yes we are secure if we do not turn away from God, if we do not rebel, if we do not harden our hearts, if we continue to obey, if we continue to hold our conviction firmly to the end.

    You say if we are saved, we will do all these things automatically. But I see that genuine faith is not automatic…it is tested, it is told to hold firmly to the end, it is told to not be deceived, it is tried in the fire, it is told to persevere, to hold faith and a good conscience, told not to give up, not to become weary in doing good, persist in doing good, persevere under trial
    Galatians 6:9
    Romans 2:7
    James 1:12
    1 Timothy 1:19

    In order to believe OSAS doctrine, one must have a presupposition that there is no condition on salvation. I do not have that conviction.

    I do believe that God has secured our eternal position in Christ IF our faith remains IN Christ to the end. The tests/trials are to prove our faith genuine…
    1 Peter 1:7
    These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

  • Carolyn

    John, here’s a for instance just to clarify my position.

    If tomorrow I decide that Catholicism is for me, that I really like the idea of Mariology does that:

    a) prove that eternal security in Christ is false? No because eternal security is a constant…it doesn’t change. It’s always the same…it has been purchased by Christ for the sinner who believes and obeys.

    b) prove that my faith is not genuine? Yes, it proves my faith is not genuine because it moved away from the hope held out in the gospel, the belief that was in Christ alone.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Faith

    Thank you Faith :) I am sure you will know me to be a humble person and if I make a mistake and I am will ask for forgiveness and fix my mistakes. I am led by the Holy Spirit to speak the truth on this website, and what I say impacts others greatly. I have to rectify my mistakes and let others know I am in the wrong.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jarrod

    >> I just want to encourage everyone to focus on the CREATOR and your new position in Christ and not on the CONDITION of the Creature.

    As a genuine Christian this is what a Christian does, our entire focus is on Jesus Christ, AND it is the Holy Spirit who helps us live a holy life – not the other way around. I have a whole article on the error of Lordship Salvation. If we are focusing on living a holy life first and Jesus Christ is second, then there is something wrong – that is Lordship Salvation. But as a genuine Christian living a holy life comes through the guidance and help of the Holy Spirit and when we do sin the Holy Spirit convicts us to repentance and through obedience to Jesus Christ we grow in holiness. We will never be sinless, ever, but we will certainly not be perpetual sinners.

    I get the feeling from your comments that you go to the very other extreem and take God’s Grace for as a license to live a life of sin? Does not matter what you do as long as you ‘focus on Jesus’ you are saved. Is this what you are implying?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    sue

    >> I love and respect JP; but he can be very naughty at times. ;)

    I do not think Jesus would call it naughtiness.

  • Redeemed

    # 130 – Michael, a big AMEN!

    Repentance is a key element of the Gospel message. It seems that some who rightly oppose Lordship Salvation have gone to an extreme. Perhaps that is why Jarrod bristled at my mention of “easy believism”?

    This is an excerpt from a message by H.A. Ironside entitled “Except Ye Repent”

    Shallow preaching that does not grapple with the terrible act of man’s sinfulness and guilt, calling on “all men everywhere to repent,” results in shallow conversions; and so we have a myriad of glib-tongued professing Christians today who give no evidence of regeneration whatever. Prating of salvation by grace, they manifest no grace in their lives. Loudly declaring they are justified by faith alone, they fail to remember that “faith without works is dead”; and that justification by works before men is not to be ignored as though it were in contradiction to justification by faith before God. We need to reread James chapter three and let its serious message sink deep into our hearts, that it may control our lives.

    To read more…………http://www.faithbiblechurchnh.org/ironside_repentance.htg

  • John Chingford

    Hi Caroline
    re 131 and 132

    With respect, you are coming to the scriptures in the wrong way. This is what most believers do and therefore why there are so many false theologies. Please FIRST read this article “How To Study The Bible and Why. Learning How To Avoid Deception” on [removed] and then look at your questions again from that perspective.

    Basically, you cannot look at isolated verses OUT OF CONTEXT of the whole overview of God’s plan of salvation as revealed throughout the WHOLE bible and decide upon your doctrine upon a handful (even 2 handfuls) of scripture verses that “seem” to contradict the rest of the WHOLE bible which is overwhelmingly clear (in context) about eternal security.

    In any case, there are far more “isolated” verses about eternal security than otherwise as shown in my eternal security article.

    However, we should NEVER build up our theology on just some isolated verses but on the WHOLE Bible.

    Because I have fully studied the Bible I am totally convinced that God’s plan of salvation is that those who truly believe and are born again will NEVER lose it.

    Now I have said that, we should all from that contextual position be able to answer Carolyn’s questions which apparently contradict our position. In fact, it is easier to come up with answers to these than vice versa.

    Carolyn.

    1) You have the Holy Spirit within you. You are a truly born again believer. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the Holy Spirit will lead you back into the Catholic fold because HE has already revealed the truth to you. God is not a god of confusion but a God of peace. Those who go back to the Catholic church DID NOT ever have the Holy Spirit. Your statement is hypothetical irrelevance.

    2) Did Jesus need to “earn” His salvation?
    Sounds like a crazy non sensical question. However, I will show you that what you are asking is similarly ludicrous. Please read Hebrews 5:7-9:

    “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

    If you simply read those words in isolation, you would come to the conclusion that Jesus used to be imperfect, who needed to learn how to be obedient/sinless through suffering.

    However, surely you agree that those verses do not mean that. Why not? You know it doesn’t mean that because of CONTEXT of the whole Bible. We know that Jesus was sinless, never failed His Father. So what does it mean? The context is about GROWTH.

    Perfection needs to be tested through temptation and suffering. Jesus WAS perfect but despite this HAD to face temptations and trials to PROVE/test His perfection to show He was the conqueror of sin and therefore can become one who can identify with our weaknesses. The word perfection means to be fully tested and come through with “flying colours” and it can mean “completion”.

    Why do I say these things? You state that genuine faith is tested. Yes IT IS tested. It is tested in the way that Jesus was tested. Was Jesus ever in danger of being anything other than the eternal Son of God and Redeemer? NO! But even still He was tested.

    If Jesus was tested but with no possibilty of Him ever failing, so in like wise we will never lose our salvation despite our testings IF we are truly born again.

    3) Who are those who harden their hearts? It is unbelievers! Those who chose NOT to believe. It is not true believers. We are those who did not harden our hearts but RECEIVED, believed in Jesus. Although it is possible for us to occasionally harden our hearts in certain things, the verse is not saying that we can go to hell because of it. Much of Hebrews is referring to “rewards”. Rewards is not the same as “salvation”. We can lose rewards but we DO NOT lose our salvation. Rewards are to do with our “works” as believers. Some will obtain greater rewards than others because of their dedication to their Saviour, but we all obtain the same salvation.

    Those who yield to sin (for a season) will suffer the loss of wonderful fellowship with Jesus and all the blessings that are attached to our obedience. If we are disobedient we can suffer the corrections from our Father and miss out on fellowship. That is NOT the same as losing salvation. It is LOSING FELLOWSHIP. But fellowship is restored every time we repent. This is not the same as salvation because we are already saved if we are truly Born again.

    Carolyn, it is important to understand the background to the Book of Hebrews. The writer was addressing issues that were happening amongst the Judaic believers who were being influenced by Judaizers. They were being influenced to return back to OT ways but only retain Jesus as an extra. The writer was trying to illustrate how nonsensical it was to return back to that old way of life by using rhetorical/hypothetical questions confronting the nonsense in what the Judaizers were telling them.

    For example “those who have already been enlightened …..if they fall away …. to repent again ….” The falling away is not referring to losing salvation but falling from the benefits/blessings of grace. The writers arguments are that those who fall back into the law are leaving the benefits of salvation/grace and will therefore lose those benefits. It is NOT talking about losing salvation. It is hypothetical because it is impossible for them to lose even the benefits of grace because THEY are saved (certainly those readers who have already truly believed in the gospel). Impossible to repent again. Well of course it is impossible because they are already born again. How can you return back to being unborn again?

    I challenge you Carolyn to look at all your conflicting verses again and see if you can use the same type of contextual arguments that I have used. Please always ask these type of questions “who is the writer writing to?” “why is he writing these things?” “how does this compare with other verses of scripture that seem to conflict?” “Why is there a conflict?” “what is the GENERAL teaching on this throughout the Bible?” How do I reconcile this with the revealed nature of God?”

    You can ask other questions and ask the Lord to help you with the answers. If you do this, you will find that all those conflicting verses DO NOT contradict OSAS at all.

  • John Chingford

    Sue

    I am confused by your comment on comment 123

    “All that thinking will frazzle your brain. ;) You will get your answers soon enough.”

    What thinking? The questions I gave included rhetorical questions (because the answers are obvious) and (hopefully) stimulating questions. I already know the answers to most of my questions, but am trying to stimulate readers to think and answer the questions themselves. The clues/answers are in the scriptures I quoted. The answers are important to the topic of OSAS and should convince the readers that OSAS is truth.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Redeemed 130. That link is wrong. The last letter should be “m” not “g”

    http://www.faithbiblechurchnh.org/ironside_repentance.htm

  • Sue

    Deborah: I had supposed you would have recognised the irony in the word ‘naughty’. ;) It was tongue in cheek aimed at the fact JP is a child of God and therefore The Father will take him ‘to the woodshed’. Imho I think JP has reached a point whereby Father has handed him over to his stubborn rebellion; so many sound men of God have spent time and effort to bring him to repentance. His poorly written tome on the Antichrist; had a good ‘tongue lashing’ from me when it first emerged. He obviously doesn’t understand what ‘imminent’ means, spelling it repeatedly it as ‘eminent ’. The results will be seen at the Bema Seat. How many of us will ‘shrink back’ from Jesus at the JS of Christ? :-/

    Maranatha!

  • Sue

    John: Perseverance of the saints, this is The ‘P’ in tulip that is also defunct teaching. Perseverance of the saints is not required to keep us saved/justified , we are kept by the power of God, therefore the ‘Perseverance’ into eternity, is God’s, not the saints. ( It isn’t up to us to keep ourselves saved, we are in the double fisted grip of the Father and the Son – sealed in by The Holy Spirit.)

    Repentance, ‘metaneo’ meaning a change of mind, is not given as a condition for Salvation. The ONLY condition given for justification is the word Pisteuo – faith/believe = knowledge/assent/assurance/trust is all in the definition of the word Pistis. It causes confusion to insist ‘repent’ a change of mind, is also required for justification. It confuses two issues without need.

    The word ‘metaneo’of ‘repent and believe’ – was directed to the Jews only, NOT the Gentiles. The Jewish Religious leaders had taught the Jews to expect a Davidic Messianic Warrior who would overthrow the Romans and set Israel free. This is what they were called to ‘repent’ from, false information on the Messiah. First they needed to change their minds to see Jesus as the true ‘suffering servant’ Messiah, and Jesus did indeed fit the bill. Some religious leaders actually knew Jesus was their Messiah, but that knowledge did not result in their redemption.

    It was essential for them to take this knowledge and ‘pisteuo’ believe/faith/assent/trust to give them the assurance that Jesus was their Messiah. The Gentile jailor asked what he must do to be saved – the reply was to only BELIEVE. As a Gentile, he had no effective knowledge of the prophecies concerning the Jewish Messiah that he needed to change his mind about. He knew he was a sinner from Paul and Silas, he knew Jesus was the answer to freedom from sin and all he had to do was faith in Jesus Christ based on his new knowledge of the cross – when he faithed in Christ, this was accompanied by TRUST given within the definition of pistis. That’s the beginning of justification and will continue through sanctification. It will remain a persistent battle until glorification – e.g. ‘where – is your faith’ on Jesus, or on the wind and waves.

    Faith alone, by Christ alone. Is that enough? Yes when we consider what ‘Christ’ means. It is one word that covers in its definition, the suffering, death, burial, resurrection and
    ascension of the 100% God in the 100% Man Jesus of Nazareth! Not just ‘any old bloke called ‘Jesus’.

    Respectfully John, take or leave my opinion, but instead of trying to patch up and darn your article on Repentance, I think it needs to be withdrawn and rewritten removing every vestige of Lordship Salvation that certainly clings to it! If you can’t see that, then at least seek The Lord for His clarity. :)

  • Sue

    @ Carolyn:
    My comment to John was based on my agreement with yours. I do not accept OSAS. Simply put, Calvinism’s stance is if God has selected you to be saved, there’s not a darn thing we can do about it, that is not free will. Eternal Security is nearer the mark, although even that is being messed about with. John unwittingly denies 1John1:8-10. There is nothing automatic about our being changed, that is mysticism, it is in cooperation with the Holy Spirit that we are changed, line upon line, precept upon precept.

    Some will stagnate and refuse to grow and all post salvation sin bears consequences and that will be sorted in present life with discipline, and at the Bema to suffer LOSS… saved through fire.

    1John1:5-10
    8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Deborah: Free Grace does not encourage licentiousness; some who are Hyper DO and teach a crossless gospel. There are consequences to pay now and at the Bema. I consider we are constrained from sin by our love of God. If we love him, we will obey his commands/ imperatives. If we don’t, then we don’t love Him and we walk in the old sin nature we are to repent, and be CLEANSED 1John 1:9. E.G Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, Peter refused, this is what 1John1:9 is all about. We are all WASHED (by Christ’s Blood)but contact with the world gives us dirty ‘hands and feet’, so we come to the Lord for cleansing as did the High Priest in the Temple. ONCE a year he was totally WASHED, but before he ministered day by day in the Temple before God, he had to go to the laver and be cleansed from touching dead bodies. Essentially 1John1:9 is the ‘laver’ in our Holy Spirit walk.

    Sorry if this is garbled, I’m a bit rushed. God bless.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    I made my point I believe.

    Sue and Faith get it.

    These two Focus on the Creator rather then the CONDITION.

    Here are the two answers I get from my surveys.And Faith and Sue focused on the creator and their POSITION,and everybody else focused on the CONDITION of the creature.

    Here is one of the questions I use:

    What would you say if I told you that I found a teacher that taught Grace? About 13% say,”That is wonderful,it is really tough to find a church like that nowadays!”(POSITION) And about 87% say,” well I would be careful, because we do have sin.”(CONDITION)

    I KNOW that if we Christians start putting as much emphasis on Grace as we do on sin we would see the sin problem in christians diminish.

    Those 40 or more grace gifts we receive at salvation is our POSITION in Christ. And that is the ONLY way to properly deal with our sin. How many do you know and apply in your life? or are you still living in your condition and fighting your sin?

    If your focus is Sin and you know very little about your position in Christ, good luck.

    Redeemed,

    Hello your making my point for me. You seem to have a great handle on sin and our condition and everybody else here! now that you have a good handle on that nature, what about your position in Christ. I am not talking about sin here myself, because it seems that everybody here has been taught extremely well about Sin, so why beat a dead horse?

    I do not take Grace to the extreme, I just see that most here take sin to the extreme.Jesus took care of our sin problem for us. and His Grace is the only means by which we can “fight ” sin.

    With people that believe in Lord ship salvation Grace will always look extreme to those people.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Debs,

    You asked,”I get the feeling from your comments that you go to the very other extreem and take God’s Grace for as a license to live a life of sin? Does not matter what you do as long as you ‘focus on Jesus’ you are saved. Is this what you are implying?

    I ask you then this question. Are you truly saved? Because one who is truly regenerate and has tasted His Grace would know that that is not the inclination of a truly born again person. Grace always sounds extreme to a person who has never tasted that Grace or grace Always sounds extreme to a Christian who has fallen from Grace(put themselves back under the law)

    When it comes to salvation:
    The difference between you and I is very,very,simple! you believe that you have to focus on Jesus and keep your focus on Him. And I am telling you that it does not depend on the creature. at the moment of belief, JESUS keeps HIS focus on YOU, no matter if you lose focus or not. Our salvation depends on HIM not us. He NEVER changes.We follow the wind most of the time.

    You are telling me that you believe in perseverance of the saints as calvinists do and you dont recognize it. I am telling you that you are PRESERVED by the Lord Jesus because of who He is, not because of who you are.

  • Carolyn

    Sue #124 – huh? if you could point out the comment I made to lead you to this comment, it would be helpful. I may have slipped up, but heaven is my destination. I’m not a Kingdom Dominionist. Nooooooooo not by a long shot. I’m looking up for the appearance and soon return of my Saviour, Jesus Christ!
    Maranatha!

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    @Carolyn,

    If after reading what Sue and JK wrote here you still not have assurance of eternal security, then I don’t know how you will get it.
    In this conversation, Sue and JK opened my eyes to the greatest truth about Salvation.

    The key is this quote from Sue:

    “Faith comes by Knowledge of the Cross with the Acceptance of the free gift and the Assurance it will be as we have been told by Trusting God to keep His word and saved by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ Jesus.”

    “The second we believe, we are Justified as Jesus takes on our unrighteousness and credits to our account HIS righteousness. Legally, by heaven’s court, our dept is paid IN FULL by Christ and we are declared to be ‘not guilty’ as the Holy Spirit immediately INDWELLS the new believer in our brand new human spirit and we are given the ‘new nature’ in Christ. At that very moment, the Holy Spirit also plunges us INTO the Body of Christ, His Bride, the Church and there we are kept for eternity by the power of God.”

    If the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (God’s work) does not take place then the person is not born again and nothing of all this holds together. Put the indwelling Holy spirit, and all fits into place. All that Debs and Redeemed said. They all fall into place.
    See the next quotes from JK:

    “…if we find a verse that seems to contradict John 5:24 then we are reading that verse wrong!”
    This is so true. As born again Christians, we have to read all Scripture with our Justification as axiom/fundamental hypothesis. When we read Scripture in the context of our ongoing Sanctification and future Glorification and ask the Holy Spirit to rightly divide it for us, He will, and there will be no contradiction.

    “And if your first thought is, ‘So you are teaching people that they can just go out and live like hell?’ I would question you if you truly know Grace. Because someone who has tasted Grace from Christ would know that that is not the first inclination of a truly born again Christian.”

    I say AMEN!

  • TruthfulConversation

    Hmm, yes, Sue I would never describe someone like Jacob Prasch as naughty! That comment from you simply denigrates Debs and John, it is not right. You are minimising the effect of the terrible things JP said in his emails and comments. JP is a false teacher with a terrible temper, he can never be described as a naughty child.. uh uh, sorry.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Jarrod Kruger also uncovered this great truth:
    “Repent means to turn from your Unbelief.”
    [He will reprove the world] Of SIN, because they BELIEVE not on me;
    John 16:9
    And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT ye, and BELIEVE the gospel.
    Mark 1:15

    When you understand repentance like that, you see how Lordship Salvation is such a snare. As I read the Word now, everything seems to make perfect sense.
    Repentance does not mean the same thing for the lost and the saved. For the lost is means turning from his unbelief to belief/faith in Christ and in Him who sent Him.
    For the saved, repentance is not unto salvation, but unto fellowship (1 John 1:6-9)/growth/walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16) /joy “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation” Psalm 51:12 (read the whole Psalm)

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    @Jarrod Kruger wrote:
    “finally, it is possible for the believer to “fall from grace” (Gal 5:1-4), which, however, is never
    accomplished by sinning; for the Christian falls from grace only when he turns from his true liberty under grace to the bondage of the law”

    That is a very tough one.
    Do you mean that even though we contributed nothing for our salvation (entirely God’s work) we can loose it? We can be saved and then get unsaved by turning from our true liberty under grace to the bondage of the law?
    And what if such persons were never regenerated in the firsts place? What if they never actually received the free gift of the indwelling Holy spirit in the first place?
    We know that Judaizers (false teachers) were trying to bring back the Galatian churches into Judaism, and much of Paul’s epistle to them is dedicated to addressing those issues. In the above mentioned passage, those Judaizers are going back to circumcision.

    this last statement of yours seems to contradict the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer.
    God knows the end from the beginning. I do not believe one instant that God would regenerate a person, seal that person with His Holy Spirit, only to undo what He did later on. He foreknew who would believe/be saved and who would not.

  • Redeemed

    Re: # 68 by Paul Good point!

  • Redeemed

    Sue, I obviously did not mean that the grace of Christ is “greasy”. That is an interpretation of how some who have false prefessions view it. Also, J.R. Rice’s sermon is What It Costs to Be a Good Christian, not what it costs to be saved. If you looked into Bro. Rice and what a soulwinner he was you would know that he gave a clear presentation of the Gospel and never ever said there was a cost to being saved other than surrendering to Christ.

    Now as to your comment about JP being “naughty”. Do you think Christian leaders should (wink) be given a pass for horrible tirades against brothers and sisters in Christ simply because they dared to question him?

    Christian teachers/leaders are held to a higher standard. Many forget that and lose their humility. Does that not concern you?

  • Jarrod Kruger

    This is not Jarrod against anybody.

    It is truth against deception. We do not struggle against flesh and blood…..

    We are all believer priests and we need to come to our own conclusions. And You can talk about sin and try to get to that point of having your self cleaned up so you will stay saved. Or you can just Acts 16:31 it and learn Grace so you can get cleaned up enough!

    I spent 10 years in a church that taught us all about our sin and how horrible I was. No matter what i got cleaned up in my life another person was just a little better, so I always had more sin to repent from!(was I doing enough?) I was never going to do it! it was a white knuckle experience for 10 years! And i was going to walk away from it all because I was sick and tired of trying.

    The Lord took me out of religion and brought me to a school that taught GRACE! and I see so many here that are in the same boat as I was and I feel for you,because no matter how much you try to fight your sin, someone will be doing better than you (wheres the scale or list for us to know we are repenting enough?)

    What are the fruits that you expect to see if you are judging people if they are saved or not?

    What are the things that you judge people for that proves they are not saved?

    I will use Carolyns friend again. A hypothetical.

    He was a prideful,arrogant, drunk. What if some of his fruit was becoming less prideful and less arrogant but still a drunk? you can see the drinking but did you notice that he was less prideful and arrogant? We dont look for the less pride and arrogance in that man but we will certainly judge his drinking.

    What if he was a homicidal drunk, He kept drinking but the Lord helped him with His Homicidal tendancy. Do we ever see that fruit? nope we will judge his drinking. The list could go on and on about the things that we cant see.

    I believe that if someone went to Carolyns friend in Grace God would restore that man to fellowship with Himself. But how many of us approach each other in Grace? Instead we are judgmental and want to see that man cleaned up first( He cant be saved, look at what hes doing!). And Christ came to save sinners and restore mans relationship to Himself. And this poor fellow has never been taught that His yolk is EASY.

    Read the prodigal son. Remember that it is about believers. It is God and Believers in that story. The father let the younger son go! but he was ALWAYS a son. We see the Father waiting for the return of His son. His son came to his senses and returned to the Father. The son had a big repent pity party speech prepared for his Father, and look close what the Father allowed the son to say.1 John 1:9 thats it! We see the younger son as recovered in this story.

    But the law(mosaic) abiding, legalistic, self righteous older brother, we dont get to see if he recovers. You will see transference arrogance in the older brother also, he accuses the younger brother of hiring prostitutes, and the scripture says that the younger brother was living riotous. The older brother was describing what he would have done if he was living riotous. The older brother fell from Grace and put himself back under the law ( he did not lose his salvation though) and He saw His Father as extreme because the father treated the younger brother with Grace.

  • Jarrod Kruger

    Redeemed,

    So how do we get saved?

    Jesus died for sinners. I am a sinner and He died for me. that is me coming to My savior. and He will save me. that is easy believism. I do not shutter at easy believism, the world shutters at easy believism.

    If the book of James ever said,”salvation is dead without works.” you would have a point,and I would rescind.

    James says that Faith is dead with out works. He is exactly right. Our faith is dead but not Gods. If James said,”Grace is dead without works.” I would rescind.

    salvation is a one shot deal, and He remains faithful to us no matter what.2 Tim 2:13

    If the creatures faith is dead, our Gods faith is NOT. Grace saves us and that one moment of Faith in Christ is Grace that can never be taken back. He can not deny Himself. And He told us that He would save us if we ever believed on His Son.

    If you want to go live like Hell or believe that that is what I teach, I cant stop you!

    If you teach Grace like its taught in the Bible, You will be amazed at what people are willing to do for the Lord (they go rather quick into a faith with works). If you teach sin and works you will have to guilt people into doing works. Which ends up being the dead faith that James is talking about!(human works) God wants divine works. And you need a solid understanding of Grace to understand the faith and works James is talking about.

    Its the object(Christ) of our faith that saves us, not our faith. If you put faith in Christ once, you aint never getting out of it. We could have faith that a goat could save us, does that faith save you?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jarrod

    I originally asked: “You asked,”I get the feeling from your comments that you go to the very other extreem and take God’s Grace for as a license to live a life of sin? Does not matter what you do as long as you ‘focus on Jesus’ you are saved. Is this what you are implying?”

    Then you said: I ask you then this question. Are you truly saved?

    Wow…I ask the question, do believe in REPENTANCE OF SIN?

    Jarrod, I wrote the article above, I understand quite CLEARLY the difference between Calvinism and being PRESERVED.

    My original question was asking you if you YOU BELIEVE IN REPENTANCE OF SIN? Because God’s Grace does not give us License to SIN. Being TRULY REGENRATED means the Holy Spirit will AUTOMATICALLY chastise you and bring you to REPENTANCE WHEN YOU SIN. IT’s ALL JESUS’ FOCUS on US – YES. But we need to come to REPENTANCE.

    A genuine Christian will not live in PERPETUAL SIN.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sue

    Deborah: I had supposed you would have recognised the irony in the word ‘naughty’. ;) It was tongue in cheek aimed at the fact JP is a child of God and therefore The Father will take him ‘to the woodshed’. Imho I think JP has reached a point whereby Father has handed him over to his stubborn rebellion; so many sound men of God have spent time and effort to bring him to repentance. His poorly written tome on the Antichrist; had a good ‘tongue lashing’ from me when it first emerged. He obviously doesn’t understand what ‘imminent’ means, spelling it repeatedly it as ‘eminent ’. The results will be seen at the Bema Seat. How many of us will ‘shrink back’ from Jesus at the JS of Christ? :-/

    I truly pray that he does repent and I truly pray that he comes to me humbly and apologizes for, even just one horrible word he has said, forgot all the rest. I have so much compassion for people that I sometimes cry my heart out. It hurts me when people do and say the things they say, because it shows that they are lost and that is what hurts. But I will not stop exposing the false teachings he teaches, because I hope he realises through what I say and OTHERS that he is wrong and he needs to just say sorry. It’s really not a difficult thing to do when you are a genuine child of God because the Holy Spirit edges you to do so – it’s a fruit of the spirit to be humble and apologise when you have made a mistake – and he needs to rectify his errors (SOON) because he has a LARGE following of people who apparently cling to every word he says and now believe these false doctrines as well.

    PS, I am a busy little bee but I do not sting :) its is the Word of God that cuts like a double edged sword.

  • Carolyn

    John…It is not important for me to become a OSAS. John, there are many scholars who also know how to read the Bible and have reached different conclusions than you on that subject. And daily, I read from a broad base of Bible scholars, teachers and pastors who don’t agree on everything but they agree on the basics.

    Re going into Catholicism…Carolyn might not…but many have departed from what they once believed…Christ alone by faith alone. Mariology appeals to them. Midrash appeals to others. Legalism appeals to some…as it did to the Galatians. Paul warned them(the Galatians) that if they allowed themselves to be circumcised, Christ would be of no value to them. I used to discount Galatians because it was talking to Jews who had returned to the law. Then when I experienced the legalists of 7th Day, the Holy Spirit impressed the truth of that particular book on me. I understood that he was talking to me as well as the Galatians. Truth is not isolated.

    Although the writer of Hebrews deals with Jews who were returning to sacrificing animals and the law, Hebrews is not just for them. It is for us. All Scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable…

    The Holy Spirit who inspired the Word will teach me all things…and BTW I do read things in context. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. The trouble comes when we start believing that we can’t understand it by the power of the Spirit. We start believing the Catholic Pope that he must interpret things for us or JP or any number of extreme teachers who wish to push their own agenda on the flock.

    JK. You said: “I believe that if someone went to Carolyns friend in Grace God would restore that man to fellowship with Himself. But how many of us approach each other in Grace? Instead we are judgmental and want to see that man cleaned up first( He cant be saved, look at what hes doing!). And Christ came to save sinners and restore mans relationship to Himself. And this poor fellow has never been taught that His yolk is EASY.”

    This is not the problem, JK. He has had grace applied. I can say that with complete authority. He is unrepentant. Let’s not go with hypothetical. Let’s stick to the facts and with Scripture. Debs got it right. It was not grace that brought the Prodigal back. It was repentance. Grace accepted him back.

    And Sue, I agree with you on John 1:9. You just can’t ignore it, can you?

    Paul..I know grace. I am accepted in the Beloved. I get it. I’ll see you on the other side.

  • Sue

    Peace grace and mercy to you all.

    I use a :) to indicate things like a leg pull, but I see I shall have to be more careful when I write. It seems that some take themselves very seriously and are easily offended – sigh. I am here to get encouragement and give some when I can and I have no intention of trying to wind peeps up. I think it fair to say I am similar to Deborah. Straight talking is too often taken as a personal attack with the recipient choosing to be offended and sulk as they demand Pietism. Being sensitive is a good quality, but overly sensitive will cause trouble, even division. So in case someone is wondering, I speak as I find, have little patience for the need to butter people up and hate having to walk on eggshells. To me being PC means that I am on my laptop. To my understanding, it is both kind and loving to speak out God’s Truth, even if it offends, and it does!

    John #84 and #138
    “My question is “do those who are ‘saved’ at ‘seeker sensitive’ churches REALLY believe?”. The gospel that is presented to them is a false, shallow all encompassing gospel which is a “wide way” to salvation. True faith responds to what you believe. Do these hearers REALLY believe that they are sinners who are perishing, going to hell and who realise they NEED to be saved who believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father and the ONLY way to be saved and that His blood is sufficient to cleanse them from their sins?”

    Came across to me as rather frenetic (overly intense). My comment was to try and calm while advising you to seek The Lord for clarity. To add that I have read said article and while much is harmless enough, I find Calvinistic traits within it, especially LS. You may be unaware, so I was agreeing with Carolines SECOND appraisal of that particular piece. Yes, you DO know me John, you know how alert I am about LS and I am glad to have Deborah and the others to mediate our views as I want good for you, not bad.

    Caroline #96. Mostly dear sister we are on the same page. I am sorting it through where I find a ‘knot’. Phraseology can easily trip me up if I don’t read carefully enough. In this comment, it seems you are both for and against ES concerning 1Cor. I may be mistaken; I haven’t been here very long. On the whole, I am having no trouble cheering you on as with most here. MY touchy point is LS and how insidious it is. Non Calvinists are inadvertently still being sidetracked by their teaching. I was – eg I believed Eph2:8, meant that the faith to believe is given by God as a gift – that’s LS, because the grammar in the Greek makes it very plain that the ‘gift of God’ refers back to ‘saved’. I have some intensive notes somewhere; I need to have a shufty for them.

    Carolyn #117 followed by #119 to Jarrod with whom I totally agreed. No I don’t suggest you are a Dominionist at all. Nothing of the sort. I wanted you to consider 1Cor in that light. When I studied it with Robert Dean, I saw that the Greek grammar claims the baddies as genuine believers, but still living as the world they had left, mainly through ignorance. Without repentance and cleansing 1John1:9 They will enter heaven as heirs of God, but not enter the Messianic Kingdom as heirs of CHRIST. Its about the loss of rewards and inheritance. I am not clever enough to explain more thoroughly and I wouldn’t want to fall out with anyone over it.
    Just to add that Arminianism does its part to muddy the waters with 1Cor, not just LS.
    God bless you Carolyn.

    Jarrod: It is startling to find how much in agreement I am with your Free Grace stance (Biblical Christianity). Please allow me to be forthright, I don’t want to sound aggressive, but I am concerned that you MAY run with those who teach a ‘crossless gospel’, I understand it is of great concern within the Free Grace movement. :-\

    I so agree concerning the Grace Gifts. We do need to know who we are in Christ, but so many of us are being troubled by false teachings invading our families, we NEED to be able to voice these horrible negatives to help us speak up for the faith within us – well I do, at any rate. God bless :)

    To those offended by my ‘naughty’ comment re. Jacob Prasch.

    GRACE to you! GRACE GRACE GRACE = UNDESERVED favour – totally unearned. Eph2:8,9 “For by GRACE we are saved, through faith, and that (being saved) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” = FREE GRACE
    Jacob (and me) believed/faithed in Christ trusting Him to keep Him and give JP Eternal Life. The Holy Spirit indwelt JP with a brand new human spirit AND plunged (baptized) JP into Christ’s Body, His Bride, the Church giving JP many spiritual blessings/gifts for Eternity, never to be withdrawn.
    JP is your BROTHER in Christ and has a new nature in Christ that tends to be overridden by his old sin nature that is going against the commands/imperatives of God’s Word.
    As Jarrod has said so eloquently put, I am looking at JPs POSITION in Christ. I have personally acknowleged JP’s fault in this matter and neither ignored it or winked at it. What JP has done is wickedness, it is SIN, it deserves punishment. Jesus gave His life for JP’s sin, both pre and post salvation sin. Jesus gave JP His righteousness and took JP’s righteousness onto Himself. Jesus Christ has paid the price for Jacob’s sin – and ours.

    After telling JP his fault, it is now up to us to pray for God to open the eyes of his understanding and bring JP to repentance 1John1:9.
    JP’s hay, wood and stubble works in the flesh shall be burned at the Bema fire, and all his works done in accordance with the leading of the Holy Spirit shall be unharmed by the judgment fire and come forth as gold, silver and precious stones. For this JP will be rewarded, for the rubbish burnt, he will suffer the loss of what SHOULD have been his from the foundations of the earth.

    Apologies if my sense of humour has offended anyone, but that’s all it was, a little bit of irony that JP, as a child of the Father, will get a jolly good spanking one way or the other because the Father chastises all those He loves.
    This is true of each one of us.

    Deborah: God bless your heart as you persist in exposing deception. I know how it hurts, truly I do.

    I am unaware of any Scripture that says a genuine Christian will not live in perpetual sin? I do know it is a favourite teaching of LS, one of their little serpents that sneak through the ranks. I have no doubt that JP remains kept by the power of God, I do not doubt that he will be Justly chastised for what he has done, as will we all.

    Breifly. The Father has allowed this in your life to hone you. James says we are to learn to ‘count it all joy’ knowing it will produced good fruit in you for your work in ETERNITY. Do we sink in our emotions, or do we take God at His Word e.g Romans 8:28 ALL things work together for good for those who trust in Christ Jesus and are the called.. Proverbs3 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding, in all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE Him and HE WILL DIRECT YOUR PATHS. This unpleasant business must be seen for what it is, as a tool in the hands of the Sovereign God to shape and mould you by taking Him at His Word. Satan wanted to harm Job, and God said this far and no further, and the end of Job was greater than in the beginning.

    Think! – ETERNITY – that’s what all this is about and its coming fast.
    Hugs and blessings :)
    x

  • Redeemed

    @ John Chingford:
    #139

    Sure don’t know how that happened – I copied the link right from the browser and pasted directly to the post. But glad you caught it! Does that mean that you were the only one who bothered to go there? This is one that Jarrod really needs to check out, but it seems that those who have their mind set have their mind set and are really not interested in the truth. I truly hope I am wrong.

  • Redeemed

    Jarrod # 152

    You have shown your true colors here my friend:

    What are the fruits that you expect to see if you are judging people if they are saved or not?

    What are the things that you judge people for that proves they are not saved?

    I will use Carolyns friend again. A hypothetical.

    He was a prideful,arrogant, drunk. What if some of his fruit was becoming less prideful and less arrogant but still a drunk? you can see the drinking but did you notice that he was less prideful and arrogant? We dont look for the less pride and arrogance in that man but we will certainly judge his drinking.

    It was not the drinking that commenters focused upon. It was his lack of consideration for others, it was his demanding attitude and lack of gratitude shown the Carolyn for taking him in. It was a lack of accountability for his situation. And then finally when deprived of his ability to manipulate and force Carolyn to feed his destructive habits it was his PRIDE and ARROGANCE that caused his ANGER.

    You are SO far off the mark it is astounding. How can you say he was less prideful and arrogant? You are so obsessed with NOT looking at condition that you cancel out the reality of the situation! His insistence on having his own way and his ingratitude and his resistance to the Word of God are the focus.

  • Redeemed

    Reply to Jarrod # 157

    Did you read the article I referenced at http://www.faithbiblechurchnh.org/ironside_repentance.htm ?

    It is from one of the greatest Bible expositors in recent times who has gone to his reward.
    He fully explains what I am trying to say – why re-invent the wheel. Please let this forum know your comments on this article. And I encourage EVERYONE who has been a part of this discussion to read the article and comment.

    Repentance is a strong theme throughout the Old as well as the New Testament.
    I fully understand the wonderful grace of God, and have made it quite clear that I do not believe in LS although you still insist that I believe in it without realizing it. How preposterous! I do not believe in a works salvation and I do not believe that we maintain our salvation through works. I am NOT a legalist! Got that? Comprehende?

    You say you do not “shutter” at easy believism. Sir, you should SHUDDER at it. I believe that the Lord God Almighty SHUDDERS at it and does not accept it! You have a warped concept of God’s grace and that very concept is DANGEROUS because it speaks to eternal destiny. Apparently you approve of the watered-down “gospels” of Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, et al.
    1. Luke 15:7
    I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no REPENTANCE.
    2. Luke 24:47
    and that REPENTANCE and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem
    3. Acts 20:21
    testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
    4. Romans 2:4
    Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to REPENTANCE?
    5. 2 Corinthians 7:10
    For godly sorrow produces REPENTANCE leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
    6. 2 Timothy 2:25
    in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them REPENTANCE, so that they may know the truth,
    7. 2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to REPENTANCE.

  • Redeemed

    Reply to Jarrod # 142

    You said:

    Redeemed,

    Hello your making my point for me. You seem to have a great handle on sin and our condition and everybody else here! now that you have a good handle on that nature, what about your position in Christ. I am not talking about sin here myself, because it seems that everybody here has been taught extremely well about Sin, so why beat a dead horse?

    I do not take Grace to the extreme, I just see that most here take sin to the extreme.Jesus took care of our sin problem for us. and His Grace is the only means by which we can “fight ” sin.

    With people that believe in Lord ship salvation Grace will always look extreme to those people.

    It was our CONDITION that required a Savior to redeem us. It was our SINFUL CONDITION that sent our Lord to the cross. It was our SIN that stood between us and salvation. If that is overemphasis on sin, that you have accused our Lord of overemphasizing it. That may sound extreme, and I don’t like putting i in those terms, but that is the unvarnished truth.

    I can’t seem to repeat it enough. I am FULLY AWARE of the error of LS and have been for quite some time and I absolutely reject it. I believe that there are true conversions where the person is sealed by the Holy Spirit, but I also believe that there are false conversions. Those sealed by the Holy Spirit are born-again and are secure in their salvation, NOT by our works but by God’s grace. He saves us, He keeps us.

  • John Chingford

    Following on from a previous comment of mine (105); it is frustrating when I write an urgent important comment which gets published one day or more later and in the meanwhile a barrage of other comments are written which also appear many hours later.

    My comment then appears before all of those because I am the first to write after Debs has finished her publishing for the day (because I am in the UK). What this means is that my comment seems to be out of place and effectively gets lost in the pile up to follow and out of sight. The subsequent comments are written which “seem” to be replies to my comment (if you look at the date and time) but ARE NOT replies.

    Sue’s replies and our replies to her are a prime example.

    Therefore, I would like to post my earlier comments again on the next comment of mine

  • John Chingford

    Hi Caroline
    re 131 and 132

    With respect, you are coming to the scriptures in the wrong way. This is what most believers do and therefore why there are so many false theologies. Please FIRST read this article “How To Study The Bible and Why. Learning How To Avoid Deception” on [removed] and then look at your questions again from that perspective.

    Basically, you cannot look at isolated verses OUT OF CONTEXT of the whole overview of God’s plan of salvation as revealed throughout the WHOLE bible and decide upon your doctrine upon a handful (even 2 handfuls) of scripture verses that “seem” to contradict the rest of the WHOLE bible which is overwhelmingly clear (in context) about eternal security.

    In any case, there are far more “isolated” verses about eternal security than otherwise as shown in my eternal security article.

    However, we should NEVER build up our theology on just some isolated verses but on the WHOLE Bible.

    Because I have fully studied the Bible I am totally convinced that God’s plan of salvation is that those who truly believe and are born again will NEVER lose it.

    Now I have said that, we should all from that contextual position be able to answer Carolyn’s questions which apparently contradict our position. In fact, it is easier to come up with answers to these than vice versa.

    Carolyn.

    1) You have the Holy Spirit within you. You are a truly born again believer. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the Holy Spirit will lead you back into the Catholic fold because HE has already revealed the truth to you. God is not a god of confusion but a God of peace. Those who go back to the Catholic church DID NOT ever have the Holy Spirit. Your statement is hypothetical irrelevance.

    2) Did Jesus need to “earn” His salvation?
    Sounds like a crazy non sensical question. However, I will show you that what you are asking is similarly ludicrous. Please read Hebrews 5:7-9:

    “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

    If you simply read those words in isolation, you would come to the conclusion that Jesus used to be imperfect, who needed to learn how to be obedient/sinless through suffering.

    However, surely you agree that those verses do not mean that. Why not? You know it doesn’t mean that because of CONTEXT of the whole Bible. We know that Jesus was sinless, never failed His Father. So what does it mean? The context is about GROWTH.

    Perfection needs to be tested through temptation and suffering. Jesus WAS perfect but despite this HAD to face temptations and trials to PROVE/test His perfection to show He was the conqueror of sin and therefore can become one who can identify with our weaknesses. The word perfection means to be fully tested and come through with “flying colours” and it can mean “completion”.

    Why do I say these things? You state that genuine faith is tested. Yes IT IS tested. It is tested in the way that Jesus was tested. Was Jesus ever in danger of being anything other than the eternal Son of God and Redeemer? NO! But even still He was tested.

    If Jesus was tested but with no possibilty of Him ever failing, so in like wise we will never lose our salvation despite our testings IF we are truly born again.

    3) Who are those who harden their hearts? It is unbelievers! Those who chose NOT to believe. It is not true believers. We are those who did not harden our hearts but RECEIVED, believed in Jesus. Although it is possible for us to occasionally harden our hearts in certain things, the verse is not saying that we can go to hell because of it. Much of Hebrews is referring to “rewards”. Rewards is not the same as “salvation”. We can lose rewards but we DO NOT lose our salvation. Rewards are to do with our “works” as believers. Some will obtain greater rewards than others because of their dedication to their Saviour, but we all obtain the same salvation.

    Those who yield to sin (for a season) will suffer the loss of wonderful fellowship with Jesus and all the blessings that are attached to our obedience. If we are disobedient we can suffer the corrections from our Father and miss out on fellowship. That is NOT the same as losing salvation. It is LOSING FELLOWSHIP. But fellowship is restored every time we repent. This is not the same as salvation because we are already saved if we are truly Born again.

    Carolyn, it is important to understand the background to the Book of Hebrews. The writer was addressing issues that were happening amongst the Judaic believers who were being influenced by Judaizers. They were being influenced to return back to OT ways but only retain Jesus as an extra. The writer was trying to illustrate how nonsensical it was to return back to that old way of life by using rhetorical/hypothetical questions confronting the nonsense in what the Judaizers were telling them.

    For example “those who have already been enlightened …..if they fall away …. to repent again ….” The falling away is not referring to losing salvation but falling from the benefits/blessings of grace. The writers arguments are that those who fall back into the law are leaving the benefits of salvation/grace and will therefore lose those benefits. It is NOT talking about losing salvation. It is hypothetical because it is impossible for them to lose even the benefits of grace because THEY are saved (certainly those readers who have already truly believed in the gospel). Impossible to repent again. Well of course it is impossible because they are already born again. How can you return back to being unborn again?

    I challenge you Carolyn to look at all your conflicting verses again and see if you can use the same type of contextual arguments that I have used. Please always ask these type of questions “who is the writer writing to?” “why is he writing these things?” “how does this compare with other verses of scripture that seem to conflict?” “Why is there a conflict?” “what is the GENERAL teaching on this throughout the Bible?” How do I reconcile this with the revealed nature of God?”

    You can ask other questions and ask the Lord to help you with the answers. If you do this, you will find that all those conflicting verses DO NOT contradict OSAS at all.

  • John Chingford

    Sue

    I am confused by your comment on comment 123

    “All that thinking will frazzle your brain. ;) You will get your answers soon enough.”

    What thinking? The questions I gave included rhetorical questions (because the answers are obvious) and (hopefully) stimulating questions. I already know the answers to most of my questions, but am trying to stimulate readers to think and answer the questions themselves. The clues/answers are in the scriptures I quoted. The answers are important to the topic of OSAS and should convince the readers that OSAS is truth.

    Hi Redeemed re 130. That link is wrong. The last letter should be “m” not “g”

    http://www.faithbiblechurchnh.org/ironside_repentance.htm

  • John Chingford

    Sue,
    By the way, where on earth do you get those interpretations on what I was saying, from? For example, you have completely misrepresented me regarding the “P” and actually made it personal regarding my blog etc etc.

  • John Chingford

    Sue,
    By the way, where on earth do you get those interpretations on what I was saying, from? For example, you have completely misrepresented me regarding the “P” and actually made it personal regarding my blog etc etc.

    Please do not bring in to this blog that same vendetta you had against me on two other sites which I had to leave because of your false accusations and nastiness. I came to this site to get a clean break from all that went on there. Why are you here? You took a great dislike to me on my blog once you falsely perceived me to be a LS adherent and the nastiness started from there with you accusing me of other things which were not true, specifically personal things.

    It is starting to kick off here again – now that you feel that you have your foot in the door.

    Where can I go to have decent fellowship without your personal vendetta always showing up? I never told you about this site because I have been trying to avoid you. Again, why are you here?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sue

    >> I am unaware of any Scripture that says a genuine Christian will not live in perpetual sin?

    You kidding…right?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    I do believe we have some false teachers in out midst…

    These people Jarrod and Sue accuse anyone of believing in Lordship Salvation (false doctrine) the moment you use the word repentance as part of our salvation.

    I am sorry Jarrod and Sue but I am not going to allow you to comment further with your false teaching.

    When you are genuinely saved and and you sin the Holy Spirit CONVICTS YOU of that sin and you sooner or later repent! That is what the Bible says! Repenting of sin is NOT WORKING FOR YOUR SALVATION and I REBUKE BOTH OF YOU for even thinking that way.

  • Redeemed

    Sue, grace and peace backatcha. Your sense of humor is delightful.

    Please look at these verses regarding the PRACTICE of sin. The New Testament is filled with exhortations and admonitions to PRACTICING a Christ-honoring lifestyle.

    If one PRACTICES a sinful lifestyle, it is an indication of a serious back-slidden condition or that there was never a genuine conversion with TRUE repentance and understanding of one’s sinful condition. In either case, there is a need to go back to “square one” and cover that ground.

    1. 2 Corinthians 12:21
    lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

    2. 2 Peter 2:14
    having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.

  • Redeemed

    Jarrod does not realize it, and will most certainly deny it, but he is promoting what is called “license” –A PERVERSION OF GOD’S GRACE. He is giving a pass to unholy living and thereby unwittingly denying the nature of God who HATES sin. THIS IS A MOST SERIOUS ERROR! I am most concerned that others may be led astray and harm and confusion come to the Body of Christ.

    The Bible is filled with exhortations for believers to live a lifestyle honoring to God. This is NOT legalism! ANYONE WHO SAYS SUCH EXHORTATIONS ARE LEGALISTIC IS SAYING THE BIBLE PROMOTES LEGALISM! This is speaking about the conduct of believers, NOT about salvation! No one at the point of salvation has a full concept of what it means to live for Christ, but if they are truly born-again, they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who will draw them away from sin through conviction.

    Romans 6:1,2,6.12
    6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
    2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin LIVE ANY LONGER IN IT?
    12 Therefore DO NOT LET SIN REGH IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, that you should obey it in its lusts.

    Titus 2:11-15

    11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY LUSTS, WE SHOULD LIVE SOBERLY, RIGHEOUSLY, AND GODLY IN THE PRESENT AGE 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
    15 Speak these things, EXHORT, REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no one despise you.

    Peter admonishes saints to live holy lives.

    Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE IN HOLY CONDUCT AND GODLINESS. (2 Pet. 3:11).

    Jude, the half-brother of the Lord, in his little postcard epistle saw the need to warn believers about those who pervert grace.
    Jude 3-4
    3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it NECESSARY to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, WHO TURN THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LEWDNESS and deny the only Lord God[a] and our Lord Jesus Christ.

  • John O'Rourke

    I have a question to ask you, and it’s a personal question that you may be able to help me out with. I’m a christian over 20 years and have been baptised with God’s Holy Spirit. I love the LORD, and to be honest my walk with God has not always been great. I’ve made a lot of stupid decisions in life, but as I said I do love the Lord in my heart.

    My question, if you can help. I love God’s word and reading it, yet when I’m at home sharing God’s word with others i’m fine and share the word. However, when I’m up in front of people reading God’s word i get very, very nervous. I really mean this. Even if i’m reading a small passage of scripture (like 5 verses) it happens. I would really like some insight into this please as this is a genuine email.

    john o’rourke
    sligo , ireland

  • TruthfulConversation

    Yes Sue, I would like to know the answer to that question too? Why did you apologise to John on his blog and then follow him to DTW, where you are obviously trying to cause trouble..AGAIN! Praise God, Jesus looks after Debs and the genuine people that come here searching for truth too. Jarrod, I welcomed you, and now you have been proved to be another one trying to foist your false teaching on DTW. It makes me angry, but that is okay, because when I am angry I pray more effectively, and I will be praying that the Lord will expose EACH and EVERY false teaching and trouble maker.

  • Carolyn

    We’ve all made our positions clear. And I appreciate the opportunity to do so. I don’t have to be right, but I don’t have to be wrong either.

    However, what distinguishes us as Christians is our love for one another. That and obedience to Christ’s commands. I believe if we don’t see love in our fellow Christian, then something in the flesh is choking it out. Or it was never there to begin with. Love must predominate. Without love we are merely clanging gongs and tingling cymbals. And I say for the most part in this discussion, love and respect has presided. Everyone is ultimately responsible for his/her own words and attitude before the Lord.

    Although, I’m a bit preoccupied right now with a few persecutions of my own, I will be sticking around. I’m just choosing not to die on this particular hill. I’d like to live to fight another day. I learned some things here. My faith was strengthened by the exchange as was my appreciation for treating each other with respect. Thank you for moderating the comments, Debs. Not an easy task with so many varying thoughts.

    2 Thessalonians 1:2-4
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

    The persecutions you/we are feeling will continue until we reach the other side. That’s a promise…sometimes they come with stealth, sometimes swiftly and brutally, but they always come….sometimes through personal attacks and sometimes through adverse circumstances that Satan sets up for us…we must be aware of his devices. But we must also be aware that God is with us in times of trouble. Take Job, for instance…God was silent but not distant.
    2 Timothy 3:12
    “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution….”

    We can minimize the effects of our persecutors as we love each other and stay in prayer and in the Word. Good advice for us all.

  • Carolyn

    Debs, I used a different email address…hence a different icon. I kinda like my purple face better. :-)

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    I noticed that Jarrod had come to us from the EX Preacherman site. As I understand it, Faith also comes from that site. Why did they come to ours? Obviously they believe we are false teachers who need to be exposed. Sue has now joined that site.

    I once wrote to Jack (the ex preacherman) because on first glance the site looked okay.
    The reason I wrote to him was because I was putting together my article on New Calvinism (in 2011) and found his site in the process. I was wanting to get all my facts straight about the whole subject, looking at the distinctions between biblical salvation compared with the false Calvinist version.

    I wrote (just once) on that site asking sincere questions. The response I got was unbelievably ungracious.

    I simply asked them a question to help me understand something. Jack immediately labelled me LS and called me a heretic. He said “your teaching is Lordship salvation which is heresy. We do not accept heretics like you on our site and WILL NOT publish your comments”

    That comment (of a year ago) has now been removed.

    This is the comment I wrote which was not published (please tell me what is so wrong with it, why he would label me a LS teacher and why I was treated so terrible – it was my very first comment):

    “Hi Everyone
    I have read everything here and can see the points you are making. However, I notice that no-one mentioned the following passage of scripture.

    “yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.” 2 Cor 7:9-11

    The key words were “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation”
    When I consider the context of the passage, it IS in regard to believers (not the unsaved). However, scripture often adds a GENERAL piece of teaching (within the specific part) which can be generally applied to all people, such as “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation”.

    If repentance means a change of mind, that text could say “Godly sorrow brings about a change of mind which leads to salvation”. Therefore, true repentance is not possible without first having “Godly sorrow” about sin. Granted it does not mention a “turning from sin” but it DOES require a Godly sorrow.

    Therefore, true repentance is stimulated by GODLY sorrow for sin and a recognition that salvation can be found in no-one else except Jesus..

    There surely must come a time in a sinners life when they realise they need salvation from their sin. They learn about the sacrifice Jesus made for their sin and then need to place their faith upon Jesus as the only one who can save them from their sin and bring them into the presence of God.

    I believe that this whole process is led and directed by the Holy Spirit who “convicts the world regarding righteousness, sin and judgement”. The Holy Spirit leads a sinner to repentance (which includes a Godly sorrow for sin) and faith in Jesus.

    I then ask you: how does a person become “born-again” or become born as a child of God?
    Paul stated that we have become “a new creation in Christ Jesus, all things old have passed away, all things now become new” and “it is no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me”. How can that happen if all they have done is accepted Jesus mentally?

    Surely we ALL need to receive Jesus into our hearts in order to be born-again? I am not talking about making Jesus Lord of our lives, but simply receiving Him into our hearts. Lordship comes later through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and is NOT dependant on our salvation. This is what I currently believe.

    Please understand, I am not pushing my view. I am actually asking for your explanation. If I have got any of it wrong, I am very happy to be corrected – only I need to be persuaded by clear scriptural evidence.

    Thanks and God bless”

    Those at EX Preacherman site are too obsessed with “straining a gnat” that they “swallow a camel”. They are so very nit picking watching out for every mention of the word repentance to quickly attack us as LS teachers. You probably observed that with Sue’s, Jarrod’s and Faith’s comments here. Wherever they go they cause confusion. Is that deliberate?

    On their site, I have just noticed them decimating Luke 13:3 by taking that verse WAY OUT OF context. This is what they do. Like all false teachers they arrive at their doctrine by taking verses out of their proper context and by so doing destroy the doctrine. See how John and Califgracer defend their “repentance” views from http://expreacherman.com/2012/12/18/dave-hunts-berean-call-promoting-not-only-calvinism-but-now-the-terrible-lordship-salvation-of-ray-comfort/#comment-16153

    Why don’t they read on and especially the parable verses 4-9?

    The context related to God’s dealings with Israel (the Jews) it was before Jesus died for their sins and it was a final call to Israel to repent otherwise they would perish in their sins and no longer be the “light to the gentiles”. Later on Jesus said “you will not see me again until you say ‘blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord’ and ‘your house is now being left desolate’.

    If those at that site would look at verses 2 and 4 they would see that Jesus is referring to repentance from sin. The context is clear “unless you change your minds and stop sinning, you too will perish”.

    In the OT it is clear that repentance is understood differently. In 2 Chron 7:14 it says ” If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

    After Jesus died for our sins by becoming the PERFECT sacrifice we entered into the dispensation of grace, but before then (as in Luke 3) salvation was still dependant on imperfect, incomplete, temporary sacrifices which required a “turning from sin”.

    So it is clear from the context of Luke 13 and especially from verses 6-9 that Jesus was looking to Israel (for 3 years) for fruit i.e evidence of fruit that comes with a changed mind i.e repentant hearts leading to a turning from sin.

    So, although I agree that under the new covenant of grace a “turning from sin” is no longer required BEFORE salvation and that all that is required is a “looking unto Jesus” for our salvation through faith, Luke 13 shows that the word “repent” clearly has different facets to its meaning and CAN possibly include a Godly sorrow for sins as explained in my comment (to that site) above.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> I’m up in front of people reading God’s word i get very, very nervous

    I think this is called stage fright…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    >> Thank you for moderating the comments, Debs. Not an easy task with so many varying thoughts.

    Now you know how difficult it is for me to read everyone’s comments and figure out what they are saying or sneaky doctrine they are trying to sneak in and reply accurately and accordingly. It’s a tough one.

  • Carolyn

    John… (tongue in cheek) re #175 perhaps the word “Lordship” was picked up by the spell checker and you were an automatic dismissal.
    Your quote: “Lordship comes later through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and is NOT dependant on our salvation. This is what I currently believe.”

    That’s all I could come up with. :-)

    Debs…I have trouble keeping up with the comments, never mind sorting them. And then there are those that are continually trying to straighten you out like Job’s friends who want to help you see your hidden sins. Bottom line. We remain faithful to the gospel. Satan comes against us. Period. Doesn’t mean we are doing anything wrong…in fact, just the opposite.

    Keep up the good work of contending for the faith!

  • John chingford

    @ Carolyn re 178:

    You may be right. However, the Ex Preacherman Jack and all his disciples (which now includes Holly) on his site have been brainwashed by repetition after repetition that repentance (as part of being born again) has NO part in our being saved because THEY CLAIM it is a work of self effort. They claim that anyone who preaches that an unbeliever needs to repent (including a Godly sorrow for sin) MUST BE a LS preacher.

    They are denying the work of the Holy spirit which is to “convict the world concerning righteousness, sin and judgement. This work includes a work in producing a Godly sorrow for sin which leads to repentance (a change of mind) and to receiving Jesus as Saviour from sin. They cannot and should not separate repentance from salvation – but they do!

    Anyone who dares to challenge them on that gets ostracised. Every article, every comment that is posted on that blog is always on the same subject i.e refuting LS and quoting hand picked verses (well out of context) to support their ONGOING brainwashing until readers have been brainwashed and yield to it.

    HOLLY I strongly urge you to remove yourself from them because they have gone FAR too extreme and ARE rejecting major parts of the Bible. If you give us a chance we CAN prove (from scripture) how wrong they are.

    For example they are now discussing (again nit picking) that the Bible does not say that we should invite Jesus into our hearts and are disputing the word “heart”. It is obvious now that they do not believe that conversion is anything other than a change of thinking and simply (mentally) believing in Jesus ONLY. They claim that this believing (without repentance) is sufficient to become born again as a new creation. I ask, how can that happen if it is only the thinking that has been converted? What about the soul? If they accept that the soul has received Jesus, then they are simply nit picking. whether we are talking about the soul or the heart BOTH amount to the same thing. We STILL need to invite Jesus into our heart (ooops I mean soul) to be saved.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Please listen to John.

  • Carolyn

    Debs, I love you guys…but…I’m not a disciple of John. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ and he will lead me in his Word. If the Holy Spirit shows me something that needs changing in my life and doctrine, then I will change. John is my brother. I will listen to John if he wants to discuss things without taking a position of “I know more than you do about the Scriptures” or without saying that I have to “learn to study the Scriptures the right way”, then I would love to discuss things. Either you believe that the Holy Spirit is able to teach us or you believe that we must all conform to OSAS doctrine. Either you believe that I am from Planet X and have green spots that cannot be removed except by believing OSAS doctrine or you believe in the individuality of the believer in Christ, maturing as the Holy Spirit leads and enables…as he/she studies the Scriptures for themselves. You can’t have it both ways.

    If being in sync with OSAS doctrine is a requirement for staying on this blog, then I will kindly decline. I am learning as I go but I don’t wish to be labelled as anything other than a believer in Christ. It seems that too many blogs have the mentality that Paul talked about…”I follow Paul” or “I follow Apollos”. I’m an old bird that isn’t falling for elitism. I’ve seen too much of it. It’s divisive. I follow Christ, period. If we can discuss Scriptures and discernment, then I’m here to discuss. But then you must promise not to keep pointing out my green spots.

    I have no doubt that John knows the Scriptures well. But there is that OSAS mindset….to me it gets us off track when we start arguing about Lordship vs Free Grace, etc. etc. etc….in which there really is no end because the struggle gets intensive and personal. If our enemy can get us arguing among ourselves rather than discussing Scripture, he has won.

    Bowing out gracefully…in Christ, Carolyn

  • Redeemed

    Dear Carolyn,

    John was just trying to help you. He would never expect anyone to consider being his disciple. Good grief – he is about as humble as they come and elitist does not in any way describe him. This is a very puzzling comment.

    Apparently you do not understand the concept of “iron sharpening iron”. None of us have all the answers. But John was simply sharing some principles of Bible study that have been helpful to him and others.

    I don’t understand your opposition to OSAS – all it means is that if one is genuinely saved one is secure. We didn’t earn our salvation through works and we can’t maintain it through works.

    This discussion has been very helpful from several aspects. First it clearly draws the distinction between Bible truth and Calvinist doctrine. Then it brought to light a deceptive teaching of the gospel that leaves out repentance. I am saddened that you have found it tiresome. These are very important truths that have been twisted by false teaching and there is a need for re-inforcement and clarity.

    Certainly it is your prerogative to leave, you are free to do so, but I would exhort you to prayerfully examine your reasons for doing so. No one has done anything other than engage in honest dialogue and seek to minister the truth.

    God bless.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> John was just trying to help you. He would never expect anyone to consider being his disciple. Good grief – he is about as humble as they come and elitist does not in any way describe him. This is a very puzzling comment.

    Very puzzling comment indeed.

  • Carolyn

    Debs: My puzzling comment was in reply to your puzzling comment, #180and I quote:

    “Carolyn

    Please listen to John.”

    What were you referring to then, if not to what we have been discussing?

    Redeemed: OSAS doctrine differs from how I see things in that it makes it impossible for a person to walk away from his original faith. If it was only what you said in comment #182

    Quote: “I don’t understand your opposition to OSAS – all it means is that if one is genuinely saved one is secure. We didn’t earn our salvation through works and we can’t maintain it through works.”

    I would agree….without question. But I still see that a person has a choice to walk away…and I also see that many people have walked away.

    I also do not dispute that John is a very kind person who is deeply knowledgable about the Word. If I wasn’t true to my own beliefs, I would like to agree with him because he has been gentle in his approach and has taken the time to explain his views to me.

    However, at this point, I have listened to both sides of the argument of OSAS and, as well, I have my own paradigm that is not easily shifted. I’m still not convinced. Telling me that I need to learn how to study the word is not going to change my mind. That’s all I was meaning.

    Having made that point before, I thought Debs was telling me to listen to John…again….

  • Truthful Conversation

    Carolyn,

    Please do not leave DTW. I personally find your posts very interesting and thought provoking.

    From my experience over the time that I have known him, John’s only ‘agenda’ is to help others understand the scripture clearly.

    I do understand that sometimes it is hard to accept it when someone disagrees with your stance on things. You are right in saying that we all need to ultimately lean on the Holy Spirit for our understanding, and not take the word of man over the Bible. I think we would ALL agree there, as this is, afterall, discernment site and Debs is here to expose false teaching.

    I know that John is just concerned that you will be misled. I perceive that you might have felt a little insulted, because you feel that you DO know how to study scripture, and I am not saying that you do not study correctly. Hey, I am probably the most unlearned one here! I have learned so much from John and Debs, but again, ultimately, I rely on the Word and the Holy Spirit’s lead.

    I have had some differences with John, and I have questioned him on things. I have disagreed with Redeemed on certain things too. I think we all need to be thankful for the opportunity that God has given us to fellowship, on DTW, with like-minded Christians. There will be times when we will disagree, and I DO think that we should be careful not to offend those who ask genuine questions, and/or those who see some things differently. As long as it is all open for discussion, and we treat each other with kindness and grace.

    Not for one moment do I believe that Debs should tolerate false teaching (and she won’t).. but there is a BIG difference between those that try to foist there false doctrines on others, and those that seek to sharpen iron with iron.

    I myself have struggled with OSAS and all that goes with it.. even after reading what has been written here and elsewhere. The way I do things is to discuss my thoughts and beliefs with Christians that I trust.. and then I go away and seek the Holy Spirit’s teaching. If I still cannot agree with what I read or agree with my friends, I will surrender it to Jesus. I cannot tell you how many times an issue has suddenly become crystal clear to me.

    I agree Carolyn, sometimes it is best to put things aside, and none of us should make others feel that we are ‘pushing’ our beliefs on them. We all learn and walk in different stride. None of us know everything and there will always be unanswered questions.

    I am not accusing anyone of anything and I am not judging anyone here, I am merely trying to make us all think about our priorities and our heart attitude towards others. I include myself in what I have written.

  • Carolyn

    @ Redeemed, as I was doing a bit o’ housework, my mind was still mulling over what you said:

    Comment #182: “Apparently you do not understand the concept of “iron sharpening iron”. None of us have all the answers. But John was simply sharing some principles of Bible study that have been helpful to him and others.”

    Yes, I understand the concept of Iron sharpening iron. Perhaps you think I was trashing this particular thread as a waste of time. No no no! Certainly not. For myself, I learned some things and it made me think…but we were starting to go in circles…time for me to stand back and reflect. If you wish to continue with the discussion, don’t let me stop you.

    You also said: “This discussion has been very helpful from several aspects. First it clearly draws the distinction between Bible truth and Calvinist doctrine. Then it brought to light a deceptive teaching of the gospel that leaves out repentance. I am saddened that you have found it tiresome. These are very important truths that have been twisted by false teaching and there is a need for re-inforcement and clarity.”

    You are assuming something that just isn’t true. The discussion was very helpful. I didn’t find it tiresome at all. And I’m sorry if I gave that impression.

    Actually, if I gave that impression, I’m glad you want clarification. I made my point, I need to step back from the process. I don’t want to argue…I suppose it is personal preference. Just present to me the facts and the Scripture and allow me to make my decision.

    With some of those pushing the “extreme grace sans repentance”, the conversation was deteriorating and getting a bit personal. (I thought) So…yes, I think the thread was educational for all who participated with civility and respect for each other’s thoughts.

    Hope that puts things in a little better perspective for you. And that’s all I have on my little mind at the moment….stay tuned….

  • John Chingford

    Dear Carolyn

    re comments 179, 180 & 181

    I wrote in 179 warning about the Ex Preacherman site that Holly has gone over to as being a dangerous site. I wrote an email to Debs asking if she could show my exhortation to Holly in the “recent comments”.

    When Debs asked you to listen to me, I assumed she meant Holly, not you. I thought you would realise that, by the context. However, maybe Debs wanted you to take note about my warnings of EXP just in case you (or others) went over to them. I don’t believe she was instructing you to become a follower of my teachings.

    I certainly do not expect you or anybody to be my disciple (shudder the thought) but I DO try to exhort my brothers/sisters to become disciples of Jesus and to GET INTO the Word!

    Having clarified that. My last comment was to show characteristics of the EX P site, showing:

    1) they are too elitist and vindictive of all those who don’t believe exactly as they believe – they also ostracise such people, NOT publishing anything from those they think are heretics (they called me a heretic and then deleted their comment to give visitors the impression that they have a “nice” site).

    2) They are far too nit picking over words

    3) Too heavy handed in using brainwashing techniques.

    4) But most of all they are false teachers who tell unbelievers that they do not need to repent until after they believe and they separate repentance from belief, when the scriptures are clear that repentance AND Godly sorrow are part/parcel of the same conversion experience WITH belief – cannot be separated, they are ONE event in a TRUE conversion.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> When Debs asked you to listen to me, I assumed she meant Holly, not you.

    Oh crickey!! I didn’t read the comment properly. OOPPS!

    Sorry Carolyn!!! I mean Holly!

    *bangs head on desk*

  • Carolyn

    Debs…no wonder you get headaches. :-) Stop with the head banging. It’s a dangerous practice!

    Ok..we’re all good. Agreed. Thanks for the comments everyone! I’m feelin’ the love again….

  • Redeemed

    Thank you Carolyn for the clarification. I understand stepping back and reflecting. Not a problem – appreciate you taking the time to explain. Blessings!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Ahh, LOL… that was funny! :)

  • Carolyn

    John: I read a little over at the Ex Preacherman site. Free Grace sans Repentance…I tell ya. Deception at its finest. The thing about the human heart is that it wicked. It is deceptive. It is twisted. So can we trust it? No.

    The thing about some of these sites and false teachers is that they are wicked, deceptive and twisted. Can we trust them even though their words are smoother than oil and sweeter than honey? No. They don’t play by any rules except their own. The end justifies the means. Yes, I’m talking about so called Christians. And incidentally, so was Peter:

    2 Peter 2:18-20
    New International Version (NIV)
    18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

    We must be committed to Truth, not our own, not somebody else’s but to the Word of Truth.

    To Holly, Sue and Jarrod. Don’t let yourselves be seduced by the lips of a flattering reprobate. Rather listen to the Word of God and let it penetrate past your own preferences, past your own deceptive heart. The Lord’s own compassion will be your support. Listen to the words of Paul…

    Acts 20:29-31
    New International Version (NIV)
    29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

    Love you guys! Read the Word!

  • Carolyn

    Took this off of the statement of faith on the Ex Preacherman site.

    “16. Lordship or Commitment salvation, or “making Jesus Lord of your Life for salvation” is un-scriptural. God’s Word says we as believers should determine to allow Jesus be the Lord of our lives in obedience to our Savior for proper fellowship; but it should NEVER be intimated or taught that it is a requirement for gaining or keeping our salvation. John 3:16-18, Ephesians 2:10

    17. Repent (metanoeo) means a change of mind. Repentance is absolutely essential in salvation and the Greek the word repent means a change of mind — from any idea of religion that man may have, to an acceptance of God’s way of salvation in Jesus Christ alone. Repentance does not in any sense include a demand for a change of conduct or “turning from sin” to gain or keep, before or after salvation as that would entail a works salvation message. Acts 20:21; II Corinthians 7:8-10; Matthew. 21:32.”

    It sounds like the world’s version of “Love means never having to say you’re sorry.”

    Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they DENY Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good WORK reprobate.

    reprobate: a person rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation

    In reading some of the comments on the Expreacherman site about Billy Graham, I can see that Sue, in particular, is not a novice when it comes to preaching free grace. Also noted were some of the other comments which were a little untrue.

    Sadly, there seems to be a disconnect from logic when it comes to grace seekers. They want it so badly, that they depart from the heart and soul of the Word. There are many verses that they choose to overlook about forsaking a sinful lifestyle which seem to escape their focus since their minds seem absorbed and obsesses with “grace”. They see everything through the lens of grace even to the distortion of faith and obedience.

    Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    Here’s what the Expreacherman says to Jarrod in the comment section:
    “But thankfully, as believers, we are secure in Christ Jesus whether we are obedient to the Lord’s leading or not. We are assured His blessings if we are obedient, His discipline if we are not, but guaranteed always safe and secure in Jesus.”

    In contradiction, here’s what Jesus says to us:
    John 14: 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
    and John
    1 John 3:24
    The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

    I’m gonna play it safe and believe Christ over the Expreacherman

  • michael

    You are heretics with your Perseverance of the Saints false gospel teaching.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    michael

    Errrrrr….. clearly you did not read the article.

    Why don’t people READ the article? hmmm….

  • John Chingford

    re 194
    Sounds like this Michael (another Michael – not the one who regularly writes good stuff here)has visited us from the EX Preacherman site. It is that sort of response you get there if you write things they don’t like.

  • Carolyn

    Michael, my point was that salvation is not a neat, rehearsed formula wrapped up with a tidy little bow like a “free pass” to the heaven or a “get out of jail free” card. It is also not an all inclusive cake walk for everyone who has “made the decision for Christ”.

    It is a walk with a real living Lord and Saviour on a narrow path with only a few others willing to stay with the Truth long enough to honestly accept the salvation that Christ is offering…

    Consider this passage:
    Luke 13:23-25
    23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
    24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

    I’m not the one who said it Michael…”strive to enter”…what does that mean to you? I hate these labels that people are throwing around…perseverance of the saints, lordship salvation…after awhile everyone is just a label and Christ is nowhere to be seen as the fists are flying and the legs and arms get all tangled up in the scuffle. Believe the words of Christ. Keep him central…labels are not the thing.

  • Carolyn

    In case someone missed my point about the statement of faith, I will enlighten you:

    Did you notice that in #17…he used double speak? First he said that repentance was necessary for salvation and then he said it wasn’t necessary to keep you saved. Repentance is a way of life, an attitude. If you begin with it, you must end with it or what’s the point?

    Love is never having to say you’re sorry. See how far you get in a relationship with that attitude…

    Also, the scriptures he used for proving that the convert need not follow through with a repentance as a life commitment just proved the opposite.

    Just because someone says something, doesn’t mean it’s true. Trust no man. It may sound right but check it against the Word for yourself. How we love our formulas! It puts us back in the driver’s seat. Formulas produce fake sheep. Lies produce false sheep. Half truths produce false sheep.

    My advice? Get yer doctrine from the Word. Take off them rosy coloured, free grace glasses and see clearly for the first time in your life.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, Jack over at XPM is in his 80′s, retired from the ministry. He’s been reading the Bible through those distorted lenses for many a year so not likely to change now. Too bad he didn’t just ride off into the sunset and give it a rest.

    He is a perfect example of coming so close to the truth but yet missing the mark. He could have missed it by a mile – same thing. But he apparently has snowed his followers who seem to be sincere folks who rightly denounce LS. But in so doing have fallen into another trap.

    We can only hope that Holly will check back in here and see the mistake of linking to XPM.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    I actually realised that the false teaching over at XPM is what Rick Warren preaches in his Purpose Driven books…Rick Warren insists on an non-repentant gospel – a sinner does not need to repent at any stage, they just need to ask Jesus into their lives, then ‘follow Jesus’ and He will sort you out. No conviction, no repentance required. Just Jesus. <— That is a false gospel.

  • Carolyn

    Debs, I can just see Christ saying to Rick Warren on Judgement Day. Where did you see the words “Purpose Driven” in my gospel?

    Redeemed: A watered down gospel is so far off the mark that they not only miss it, they decimate it.

    Purpose Driven and Free Grace is all about ME. The true gospel of salvation is all about Christ…the real one. I am a repentant sinner saved by grace, past, present, future….till this old mortal puts on immortality. Can’t wait for that day!

  • John Chingford

    DAN

    I wrote a reply to you in the “General comments” section. I haven’t seen you replying for several days so am unsure if you saw the reply. As my comment has now left the list of “recent 45 comments” I decided to send it to you, again.

    However, as the topic is more suitable to THIS article, I have placed it here instead. It will appear on my next comment.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Dan (as promised). Also Carolyn this may answer one of your old questions/statements also.

    Regarding Hebrews 10:26-31 especially verses 26-29

    “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”

    If you consider the whole book of Hebrews and the history behind why the book was written, you will understand what the writer meant by “If we deliberately keep on sinning”. The sinning he is referring to is the sin of returning back to the OT laws. They were acting like the sacrifice of Jesus was not enough and that they needed to follow the law also (like Catholics today).

    “no sacrifice for sins is left”. Of course, if they do not consider the absolute perfect sacrifice as sufficient then what other sacrifice can replace it? There IS NO OTHER sacrifice good enough.

    “but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God”

    The key words here are “enemies of God”. Born again believers (including you) ARE NOT ENEMIES OF GOD. The writer was using a bit of sarcasm or irony to show how ludicrous it was to return to OT law and animal sacrifice. He was showing them that there was nothing to be gained by it because (in sarcasm) he is saying, if you want to live like that (like the unbelievers) then you should understand that these unbelievers will be consumed so why follow their ways, do you also want to be consumed?”

    However, he goes on to say “How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”

    He again is referring to those unbelievers that they will be severely dealt with for rejecting the ultimate perfect sacrifice. He is also pointing out that if unbelievers will be severely dealt with then what about believers who do the same thing? It is a rhetorical question in showing the logic that believers living like that makes no sense and will cause them to ALSO be punished by God. However, punishment of bellievers is WHOLLY different from the punishment of unbelievers. Believers will NOT be sent to hell but will be chastised by a loving Father. The key word is “deserves” to be punished.

    However, in chapter 12:6 it says “because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son”. Punishment does not mean hell for a believer.

    Then in the context of chapter 10 it says in verse 39 “But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved”. All born again believers are “those who believe and are saved” PERIOD!!!

    The writer to the Hebrews was specifically using a hypothetical argument to make a major point to the Judaizers in their midst who were troubling the true believers, advising the believers to NOT follow them. Why??? Because of all the reasons he gave throughout the book of Hebrews.

  • Wayne Jack

    Hi friends I’m asking for help finding Bibles for the family. We all have ones that need to go.

    I tried to find another one here NIV(1984), KJV http://www.christianbook.com/zondervan-niv-bible-bonded-leather-black/9780310939009/pd/939009?event=57355NIV|169342|57355
    but they all seem to do this > 2008 a 25% revision to the over 20,000 in-text study notes? Why do they need to revise??? …I know why I just don’t agree with it.

    I have several, the one I use the most is an amplified zondervan that I’ve had for 20+ yrs. and I have compared much scripture to KJV here http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=wife&s=Bibles&p=24 and found that its accurate 80-90% of the time, it’s the other 10-20% that concerns me. I don’t want another zonder because of the (10-20%) and fact they are a large publisher.
    My wife is not an adiv Bible reader so I was trying to find one easy to read and understand and large print (11 or 12min)
    so hopefully she will become an avid reader. I want another one too and ones for my sons and daughter, then I was quickly reminded why I haven’t bought one yet which is because of the difficulty finding one that hasn’t been revised, twisted or tortured. Christianbook has over 45 different translations in there bible finder, ridiculous. I have spent hrs doing this, it shouldn’t take hrs, lol

    I’m getting very frustrated trying to find ones that aren’t revised.
    A bible site recommendation please?

    God Bless and thank you in advance,

    Wayne

  • [...] See this article to understand The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Persevera… [...]

  • [...] Despite these facts, many people still uphold point five of Calvin. Even Dave Hunt, who masterfully refutes Calvinism’s first four points, faltered when he got to point five by denying that Christians can act in ways which can cause their falling from grace.   In his book he says he always regarded himself as a one-point Calvinist until he discovered that he has different reasons for believing in eternal security (ibid, p. 377). He explains that, according to him, eternal security lies in Christ’s atoning work on the cross and He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him. It is indeed eternal salvation imputed to us when we receive Christ, but we have it only as long as we abide in Him. Eternal life is not vested in us but in Jesus Christ, who ever calls His disciples to faithfulness. What happens if we backslide into a life of wilful sinning, no longer walking in the light and turning back to a life of unbelief? What about those who “have forsaken the right way and gone astray” (2 Pet. 2:15), having again become entangled in the pollutions of the world after their salvation? (2 Pet. 2:20). What they lose is not temporal but eternal salvation.  (DTW Note:  Prof Malan calls Dave Hunt a 1 Point Calvinists by not understanding the doctrine of TULIP, please see this article to understand why Dave Hunt and everyone else who believes in Eternal Security is not a 1 point Calvinist: The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perse….] [...]

  • [...] source:  http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/12/18/the-difference-between-assurance-of-salvation-once-save… [...]

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