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Jacob Prasch – Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Jacob Prasch   Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.

JohnMacArthur JacobPrasch Wolf Jacob Prasch   Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.

One of Satan’s greatest lies is to try and convince you that there are different types of Calvinists, that being the moderate Calvinist and then the hyper Calvinist.  It is a load of nonsense.  All Calvinists are Calvinists who follow a doctrine compiled by demons and their pope is John Calvin a murderer of men, women and children.

Moriel Ministries says,

“While Moriel and Jacob Prasch are not Calvinistic and do not accept unconditional “Once Saved Always Saved” (as neither did John Wesley), a distinction must be made between moderate Calvinists and extreme ones.  While we do not agree with John MacArthur on a few issues (his interpretation of eternal security and Cessationism), most of his ministry is otherwise very good. [Emphasis added] —http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/church-issues/aberrational-theology/dan-corner

Jacob Prasch and those at Moriel Ministries love to talk out both sides of their mouth.  They say they are not Calvinists, but they support the the doctrine of Calvinism (excluding one or 2 issues) and they support preachers of Calvinism.  For instance Jacob Prasch and Moriel Ministries often quote George Whitefield a Calvinist.

When it comes to understanding TULIP.  “It is necessary to note, moreover, that the Five Points of Calvinism are understood by many to be an interrelated, harmonious, self-contained system; thus, rejecting one point is tantamount to rejecting every point, and the falsity of one point falsifies the whole system.”[1] [Emphasis added]     You can’t be a 3 or 4 point Calvinist – there is no such thing, and anyone who says they are does not understand the doctrine of Calvinism…

Let’s look at the following individuals and see if they are moderate Calvinists, hyper Calvinists or just plain CALVINISTS who follow a doctrine of demons.

CALVINISM’S TULIP [2] 
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) Mark Driscoll R C Sproul Albert Mohler Robert Morey George Whitefield Ray Comfort Paul Washer John Piper  J C Ryle Charles Spurgeon John Mac  Arthur  

James White

 

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not–indeed he cannot–choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ–it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation–it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God. a a a a  a a a a a a a a
Unconditional Election Marc Discoll  R C Sproul Albert Mohler Robert Morey George Whitefield  Ray Comfort Paul Washer  John Piper  J C Ryle Charles Spurgeon John Mac  Arthur James White
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation. a a a  a a a a a a a a
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) Marc Discoll  R C Sproul Albert Mohler Robert Morey  George Whitefield Ray Comfort Paul Washer John Piper J.C. Ryle Charles Spurgeon John Mac  Arthur James White
Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation. a a a a  a a a a a a a a
Irresistible Grace Marc Discoll  R C Sproul  Albert Mohler Robert Morey George Whitefield Ray Comfort Paul Washer John Piper J C Ryle Charles Spurgeon John Mac  Arthur James White
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended. a a a a  a a a a a a a a
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) Marc Discoll  R C Sproul Albert Mohler Robert Morey George Whitefield  Ray Comfort Paul Washer John Piper J C Ryle Charles Spurgeon John Mac  Arthur James White
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected some to salvation. All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. a a a a  a a a a a a a a
 EQUATES TO:  ALL CALVINIST’S

See this article to understand The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

Thomas Lessing says:

If God is the essence of love, which of course He is, then the slightest misrepresentation of his love cannot possibly be called the truth. Both gentlemen, Paul Washer and John MacArthur, believe that Jesus did not die for everyone. Paul Washer is a wee bit more subtle in his approach to this particular “truth” and never says outrightly “Jesus did not die for everyone” but cunningly says in many of his videos on YouTube: “Jesus died the death OF HIS PEOPLE.” Who are his people? Well, of course, the elect only are God’s people. This is the kind of blasphemy John MacArthur and many other Calvinists spew out on their congregants and on the internet.

Let’s have a look and see how good John MacArthur’s ministry is along with some other Calvinists mentioned above:

Is it true that Jesus Christ was crucified only for his people (a select few chosen ones)? If it is true, it must be from God. If not, then it is a lie and all lies emanate from the father of all lies, Satan himself. Calvinism is arguably one of the most dangerous doctrines on our planet. Everything they say about the doctrines of sanctification and living a life of holiness and absolute obedience to God is commendable but as soon as it comes to the very core of God’s will for all men, the salvation of their souls, they have it sorely wrong which borders dangerously on blasphemy.

The Calvinists’ view that God only loves the elect and that consequently Jesus only died for them, is nothing short of a partial denial of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. What else could it be than a partial denial of Jesus Christ’s incarnation when He, according to the Calvinists’ doctrines, did not die for the non-elect? If He was not crucified for the non-elect, it follows that He was not born (incarnated) for them either.

What does the Bible say about those who deny the incarnation of Jesus Christ, albeit a partial or complete denial?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)

Some history about the murderous John Calvin:

See here:

That John MacArthur DENIES the precious blood of Jesus Christ and denies that it was applied in heaven: John MacArthur – Blood of Jesus Liquid / Never applied in Heaven

John Mac Arthur also believes in Lordship Salvation (Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse) which is a works based salvation.  He also says that not all elected Calvinists are promised a place in heaven as it depends on how holy they are throughout their life – this sounds incredibly similar to Islam. (http://www.soulwinning.info/wolves/macarthur-confusing.htm) and there is so much more.

John MacArthur also says you can take the Mark of the Beast, repent and still be saved:  John MacArthur – Take Mark of the Beast and Still be Saved and  Grace to You and John MacArthur – Take Mark of the Beast – No Recant

———————————————————————

Notes:

[1]  Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932), 59.

[2]  Romans: An Interpretative Outline (pp. 144-147), by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas /  Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932)

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pixel Jacob Prasch   Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.

100 comments to Jacob Prasch – Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.

  • Abe

    Even “perseverance of the saints” is a false doctrine, it is lordship “salvation”. It isn’t a true doctrine. The true doctrine is the PRESERVATION of the saints. Saints might not persevere to the “level” we want, since saints are still sinners, but it is sure that the Lord will preserve saints.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Abe

    Too true.

  • TruthfulConversation

    Debs, we..etc have had discussions about free grace on another thread, so please post my comment where you feel it is right.

    The other day I asked John Chingford what the difference is between free grace and sovereign grace. We were talking about the Ex Preacherman site and their ‘free grace’ stance. According to what I understand, they have gone to the extreme of believing that NO repentance is required for salvation.

    This is where we need to be careful. Free grace actually = Sovereign grace, they are both Calvin teachings. The Ex Preacherman site criticised us, John C, in particular, of believing in Lordship Salvation. LS is the teaching that you have to CHANGE your life completely at the moment of salvation, stop all sin etc. Now seriously folks, WHO is capable of doing that? We all sin even AFTER salvation, although of course the Holy Spirit convicts us and we should hopefully repent! At new birth, we do repent in that we acknowledge our sinful state and we ask God for forgiveness. However it takes time for new Christians to understand what God requires, and let us be honest, even mature Christians battle with sin in some form.

    I have been reading and studying about free and sovereign grace. As I said, it is Calvinism, as Sovereign grace is the Calvin teaching of pre-election, God’s sovereign will of choosing those who will be saved and preserved.

    See how tricky this can all get? If you had asked me before now what free grace meant, I would have said that it means God’s unmerited favour toward us, and that salvation is a free gift. But now the Ex Preacherman site twists that grace to mean, salvation without a repentant heart. Do you see the difference?

    I don’t believe that there is any steps up or down in Calvinism, there is no hyper-Calvinism as such, it is just an ugly, evil heresy that is being used to lead people away from biblical truth.

    There are churches that refer to themselves as Reformed, well that is also just another name for Calvinism. Recently I found a site where “reformed Christians” have started a blog for those who have left churches that are under the “Sovereign Grace”banner. They feel that they are a cult and those who have left feel they have been ‘abused’ in one way or another. I also discovered that the SGM is under investigation for child abuse.
    Now SGM churches are known for homeschooling and also for being very ‘protective’ of their children and youth. Without going into detail, I know for a fact that children are under very strict control. Most daughters will have little chance of advanced education. They will ‘choose’ husbands from their church body and they believe that ALL women are called to be wives and mothers, end of conversation.

  • Jaco

    Can I ask you a question….why do you not proclaim the gospel. The Bible shows that one of the signs of a true believer is the love for the gospel. I do not see it on your website. All I see is a hatred that is channeled through discernment. Did somebody do something to you? Was it a Calvinist? If so, you should forgive your brother! Jesus said if you do not forgive someone else, he will not forgive you.

    Your use of 1Joh4:3 is totally out of context. The line of thinking you follow to get to that conclusion that a Calvinist deny the incarnation is abusing scripture to try and proof your point. Why is Calvinism haunting you like this?

    Another question. Can a Calvinist be a born again child of God while following the TULIP system? Is it required of him to first repent of it before he will be born again?

    You do not believe in once saved always saved. I assume that from your attack on that doctrine. How will you explain to someone he can be sure of his salvation? There will always be a warning that you can be lost. Therefore you cannot tell any new believer that he can be sure of his salvation, because with that you have to warn him that he can be lost. What salvation is that? A poor new believer start his journey in fear because he can get lost!

    Who convict you of sin? If it is the Holy Spirit, can you please explain to me how you manage to manipulate the Holy Spirit to convict you when you use your free will to command Him to convict you of sin.

    I will appreciate your answers to my concerns.

  • Martin Horan

    No matter which way I look at Calvin’s teaching, it strikes me as blasphemous. It’s not only unbiblical but it’s illogical. It contradicts itself. Dave Hunt’s “What Love is this?” is the definitive book on Calvinism. It is a virtual masterpiece on the subject.
    Dave has written another book worth reading called “A Calvinist’s Honest Doubts.” “Honest Doubts” and George L. Bryson’s “The Five Points of Calvinism” are two smaller books but they sum up all the basics of Calvinist doctrine and they are excellent books for those who don’t have the time or inclination to go into Calvinism as a deeper study. The comments an analysis in all three of these books are irrefutable. However, that won’t stop Calvinsits arguing against them.
    Satan himself is a wishful thinker [Rev 12:12] but he plans to go out with his guns blazing [ibid] denying what he knows to be true. Calvinists–I guess like people in all cults–have a similar mindset.

  • TruthfulConversation

    Continuing on..

    It is only right to teach our children about the Lord, but it is not right to give a child or young adult a very small margin of choice about their own lives. It is wonderful when a young woman finds a true Christian husband, but again, I do not believe that young women should be made to feel or believe, that marriage and children are the ONLY course they can take in life. This is very much a ”sovereign grace” view.

    Going back to what I was saying previously. So here you have Reformed/Calvinists leaving the ‘Sovereign Grace’ umbrella because they feel SG is a cult or cult-like. What a pity these people cannot see that they are already being led down the garden path with the reformed doctrines of demons.

    Many well meaning, but uninformed Christians believe that Charles Spurgeon was a great teacher and a great man of God. I cannot judge the man’s heart, but he was most definitely a Calvinist. Yet not all reformed / Calvinists, seem to have the same views on ‘free grace’.
    http://www.libcfl.com/articles/free.htm This link proves that Spurgeon was a Calvinist, and the article ‘explains’ the ‘difference’ between free WILL and free GRACE, according to Calvinists.

    Do you see how subtly they change and twist God’s word? People are drawn into this web of lies and are basically brainwashed into believing a set of unbiblical steps to salvation and Christian life.

    Do you know that Billy Graham, apart from being ecumenical, is in fact a Calvinist?

    Many of the so-called ‘great men of God’, have in fact, . followed Calvinism.

    Just to show how twisted these false teachings are, we have the Ex Preacherman ‘crowd’ attacking us for pushing Lordship Salvation (which is not true, and in fact LS is a Calvin doctrine)..yet they are Calvinists?? So as I have already pointed out, ExPman followers are saying that a)sinners need not be repentant at salvation, and, b)they say that a person does not need to change completely at re-birth or the point of salvation. Now that is much more than free grace, that is one free ride! Are you confused? I know I am!!

    I can tell you that personally I’m fed up with all these labels and titles and steps to salvation that these liars hide behind! Let us call them what they are, and not fall into their trap.

  • Truthful Conversation

    This is a very good link regarding Calvinism questions and answers too. I see Debs that you had already posted something from this site, but I only found this last night and I was not aware your post was from this site. Great minds think alike eh? ha ha

    http://www.carylmatrisciana.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=264:-repentance-and-lordship-salvation&catid=39:calvinism&Itemid=54

  • John Chingford

    Hi Truthful Conversations

    re comments 3 and 6

    As far as I can tell, Free grace (like us) are NOT calvinist but correctly believe in OSAS according TO BIBLICAL (not Calvinist) teaching.

    Sovereign grace is DEFINITELY a Calvinist teaching but I believe free grace is a direct opposition to the false legalistic Sovereign grace position.

    However, Free grace has gone way too much to the other extreme in opposing legalism by verging on licentiousness – NON REPENTANCE teachings. If they do not encourage repentance or “Godly sorrow” for sins then the obvious conclusion/result will be that they can keep sinning without condemnation.

    The fact of the matter is that there MUST be repentance as part of the salvation process – possibly simultaneously because Jesus said “the Holy Spirit will convict the world concerning righteousness, sin and judgemenr”. The Holy Spirit shows us that we are sinners who need salvation from sin and that Jesus is the ONLY way to receive forgiveness and be freed from guilt and condemnation and is the ONLY one who can change us into children of God.

    I would ask “why would the Holy Spirit convict us of sin if all that is required is a “change of mind” or a “change in thinking”. The scriptures teach a GENERAL rule which applies BEFORE and AFTER salvation “Godly sorrow leads to repentance“. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin which creates in our hearts and minds a Godly sorrow about our sinful condition which THEN leads to TRUE repentance which includes not JUST a change of mind but also a change deep within our soul’s.

    FREE grace reject everything I have just discussed in the last paragraph. Instead all they ever do ALL DAY LONG is split hairs, nit pick, fault find over words and generally waste time being small minded and pulling us apart over our mere terminology. For example, we say “invite Jesus in to your heart” they say “invite Him into your soul” Is there any REAL difference?

    Is it worth them setting up yet another new denomination and isolating themselves from us by arguing their point to ridiculous lengths? Basically, they are a real contentious, divisive group. They spent just a few days on our site, but during that time REALLY caused confusion and needless irritations telling lies about us telling everyone we were LS adherants, when in fact (to the most part) our teaching is not that much disimilar to theirs apart from the “repentance” issue where we have grave concerns about the implications of their teaching and its possible repercussions to the unsaved or even to believers.

  • Truthful Conversation

    I have already sent this link to Debs, but I would like to share it with all the readers.

    More proof that Charles Spurgeon was a Calvinist, and also proof that JI Packer was a Calvinist. This Calvinistic site/article also explains more rotten Calvinistic doctrine!
    http://www.sovereigngracebaptistchurch.net/index.html

    Read JI Packer’s comment, what conclusion do you come to regarding so-called ‘free grace’? Would you say he is promoting Lordship Salvation? It boggles my mind! : )

  • Abe

    Expreacherman is not a calvinist site, and they are hated by calvinists. Free grace does not equal calvinism. The two are diametrically opposed.

  • Abe

    P.S. I am a free grace advocate, because I believe that is what the Bible teaches.

  • John Chingford

    Just following on from my last comment.

    My understanding of the “free grace” doctrine is a it is portrayed by the free grace movement. I have now discovered, that Calvinist churches sometimes label their churches as “free grace”. However, their free grace churches (Calvinist doctrine) is different from the free grace “MOVEMENT”. In which the EX Preacherman site is one of them.

  • Leigh

    Just who do YOU support? You seem to bash EVERYONE, who exactly in YOUR little “perfect all knowing Bible teacher” world do you support? And FYI, by deleting comments, as I have browsed on here, you make yourself look like you are hiding something, and you make yourself look like a coward. Man up!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    >> Just who do YOU support? You seem to bash EVERYONE, who exactly in YOUR little “perfect all knowing Bible teacher” world do you support? And FYI, by deleting comments, as I have browsed on here, you make yourself look like you are hiding something, and you make yourself look like a coward. Man up!

    I follow JESUS CHRIST the SON OF GOD, who DIED ON THE CROSS, BURIED AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD 3 DAYS LATER, ASCENDED TO HEAVED AND IS SEATED AT GODS RIGHT HAND.

  • John Chingford

    re comment 14:

    Debs, AMEN Sister!

    Leigh All of the regulars on this site re echo what Debs has said.

    WE FOLLOW NO OTHER MAN THAN JESUS P E R I O D !!!!!!! We are not like the Corinthian church nor like you JP disciples who follow men.

    1 Cor 1:12-13:
    “One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?”

    Paul is exposing the Corinthians (like you) as those who are being devisive because they follow men and not Jesus. Paul is using some sarcasm here (as he often does in his letters – especially to the Corinthians) “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?” to highlight how RIDICULOUS it is to follow men.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    Thank you for mentioning that verse, that was my next step, but you saved me time :)

  • Truthful Conversation

    Hmmm… I will go back and check, but I did alot of reading and comparing, and I still think free grace equals sovereign grace. It is a slippery slope methinks…

  • Truthful Conversation

    My apologies to ExPreacherman, I see they are not Calvinists. Sorry Abe. I did alot of reading that day and I obvioulsy got confused.

    This is why I hate all these titles and compartmentalising!

  • Redeemed

    Abe # 10 & 11

    You believe in “free grace”? In other words that repentance has no place in coming to Christ? Biblical repentance is NOT Lordship salvation! Free grace leads to false conversions and that is a grave danger.

    I hope you have not fallen into the trap over there at expreacherman. Expreacherman is against Lordship salvation but have taken it to a ridiculous extreme.

  • Leigh

    @ John Chingford:
    I am talking about as far as supporting ministries. My GOSH you people really DO twist people’s words, anyone with half a brain would understand what I meant, following Jesus is a NO BRAINER it goes without saying, but yet again, you people find fault in everything! I bet if someone says the sky looks nice, you people would accuse them of sky worship. SO SAD you people, so sad…GOOD LUCK!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    >> I am talking about as far as supporting ministries. My GOSH you people really DO twist people’s words, anyone with half a brain would understand what I meant, following Jesus is a NO BRAINER it goes without saying, but yet again, you people find fault in everything! I bet if someone says the sky looks nice, you people would accuse them of sky worship. SO SAD you people, so sad…GOOD LUCK!

    You don’t GET IT. We don’t FOLLOW people Leigh, like you do, you follow Jacob Prasch – he leads you to Jesus. We only FOLLOW JESUS.

    John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Not Jacob Prasch..

  • TruthfulConversation

    On comment 7 of mine above, I posted a link about repentance and Lordship salvation. This is part of that article; Not widely known is the fact that many in “Free Grace” circles are also Calvinists who just happen to reject “perseverance.” It’s interesting to consider that Lordship proponents might be the legalistic arm of Calvinism like John Calvin, while “Free Grace” proponents are the more lenient branch like Martin Luther. Perhaps Eddy is a Calvinist who rejects Lordship and is upset that Mark Cahill both rejects Calvinism and promotes repentance?

  • Abe

    Redeemed, that is your opinion. But repentance is metanoia in Greek, which means a change of mind. It doesn’t always warrant a change of conduct. Context would determine that. The word repentance doesn’t appear even once in the whole Book of John. Are you then saying that a person that was converted by the Book of John, was a “false convert”? Please. I am so tired of the debate with people that say “you’d better clean up your life to be saved!” and they themselves are still sinners. If you had to be “sinless enough” to be saved, then you might not be saved, since you have no idea if you are “sinless enough” or what the measure should even be. This is a boring debate and I’ve said my peace about it and I’m done with it.

  • Carolyn

    @ John re #8 – I agree with all you said and as you say about the Free Grace missionaries…”They spent just a few days on our site, but during that time REALLY caused confusion” …without a doubt. If that is any example of the divisive fruit that free grace brings to the table, I’ll pass.

    I even chide myself for being a bit too prickly sometimes, but lies…deceptions…they don’t mesh with holiness.

    Hebrews 12:13-15
    King James Version (KJV)
    13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

    Holiness…this is a requirement, not a suggestion!!

    Truth is also a straight path that is not caught…but taught!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Abe

    That is NOT what Redeemed is saying. Go and read ALL the comments under the article: The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    Abe is yet another who frequents the EX Preacherman site. It does seem that they believe they have an assignment to CORRECT US.

    Abe, Have you read my warnings of the Ex Preacherman site? If you haven’t seen it, please read it by clicking on these links:

    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/12/18/the-difference-between-assurance-of-salvation-once-saved-always-saved-and-calvinisms-perseverance-of-the-saints-once-chosen-always-chosen/#comment-231833

    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/12/18/the-difference-between-assurance-of-salvation-once-saved-always-saved-and-calvinisms-perseverance-of-the-saints-once-chosen-always-chosen/#comment-231992

    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/01/09/jacob-prasch-moderate-calvinists-are-good-hyper-calvinists-are-bad/#comment-232403

    In that last link I said “FREE grace reject everything I have just discussed in the last paragraph. Instead all they ever do ALL DAY LONG is split hairs, nit pick, fault find over words and generally waste time being small minded and pulling us apart over our mere terminology. For example, we say “invite Jesus in to your heart” they say “invite Him into your soul” Is there any REAL difference?”

    The above quote primarily refers to the EX Preacherman site. They (ExP) then tell everyone lies about what we preach by totally twisting our words, splitting hairs!

    They KEEP ON SAYING that we preach “repentance means turning from your sins”. We ARE NOT and HAVE NOT said those things. We have acknowledged that repentance means a change of mind. Our dispute is what happens beforehand to bring us to that change of mind? The Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin BEFOREHAND!!! This leads to a Godly sorrow (look at those who were saved on the Day of Pentecost Acts 2 “they were cut to the heart”. It wasn’t just a change of mind but a conviction in their souls also.

    Having a Godly sorrow and self confessing that we are sinners who need salvation from sin IS NOT turning from sin. It is <b? SIMPLY CONFESSING we are sinners and calling upon Jesus for our salvation.

    Teaching that true repentance comes simultaneously with a conviction of sin is NOT Lordship Salvation teaching!!!

    Why are the Ex Preacherman (and others within the “free grace movement”) so heavy handed with us over mere words? They are making a mountain out of a molehill. We may possibly be actually saying the same things but because we are not using their exact same terminology (nit picking) they accuse us falsely.

    However, their elitist, self righteous attitude is so very similar to calvinist’s attitudes (lacking any real humility).

    But ….. if they really don’t believe that Holy Spirit conviction of sin goes hand in hand with repentance then I have to be as bold to say that they are actually heretics because they are denying the undeniable truth in God’s word as proved over and over again throughout the Book of Acts and in the gospels.

  • John Chingford

    Abe re comment 23:

    Do you hear what you are saying? If it is true that the word “repent” does not appear in the Book of John, then it would indicate that John did not think that even a “change of mind” about who Jesus was and why He died for us, was necessary. How ludicrous is that?

    If you are disputing the word “repentance” then why? Free grace do not deny that the Bible teaches repentane (a change of mind). What point are you making?

    Even if you are right, then let us consider what the Book of John was focussed on.

    The Book of John is a VERY clear demonstration PROVING that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and that we need to look upon Jesus for our salvation. The very clearest gospel message of being saved and born again is clearly revealed in John chapter 3 and it shows us what happened when men/women “changed their minds” about Jesus. They always came under conviction of sin (experiencing a Godly sorrow).

    Just because a specific word is not mentioned DOES NOT MEAN that a book did not preach it generally. I know that you believe in the rapture, but you are using the same low down argument that “no rapture” teachers use, i.e they teach (like you are doing) that if an EXACT (English translated) word cannot be found in the translations of the original manuscripts therefore it is not scriptural – despite the fact that the WHOLE Bible teaches it.

    We need to compare the Book of John with the WHOLE Bible because it is ONLY the whole Bible put together as ONE that makes it the WORD OF GOD.

  • Abe

    Honestly, Deborah, I’m not interested in this particular debate at all. If a person can’t use something like John 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 to see the way to heaven, if they can’t rely on these basics, then we will never agree. If someone has more to add to salvation than Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2), then I’m just not interested in what they have to say about it, no matter what they say.

  • Redeemed

    Abe. repentance is a change of mind. If it does not result in a change in behavior, it is not true repentance. It is ludicrous to say that repentance does not indicate a change in the way someone lives.

    Would you please read “Except Ye Repent” by H.A. Ironside as referenced in another post or you can plug it into a search engine. It is oen of the best expositions on the topic that I have ever seen.

    Contrary to you, I think this topic is vital and worthy of discussion. It is essential to the faith to get it right.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Abe

    Honestly, Deborah, I’m not interested in this particular debate at all. If a person can’t use something like John 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 to see the way to heaven, if they can’t rely on these basics, then we will never agree. If someone has more to add to salvation than Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2), then I’m just not interested in what they have to say about it, no matter what they say.

    Those are not the only 2 verses in the Bible Abe, you have to look at THE WHOLE BIBLE to get the truth of the matter.

    Why can’t you talk about it in a rational manner? Getting all iffy about it is just silly…

  • Abe

    So you guys believe that an in-depth knowledge of all the Bible is required to get into heaven? The thief on the cross didn’t seem to have that. But if that is what you believe, I can see that I shouldn’t come here anymore….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Abe

    The thief on the cross was dying and would not see the next day. Your example is invalid.

    Oh boy…bye bye then.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Abe
    re your comment 31

    “So you guys believe that an in-depth knowledge of all the Bible is required to get into heaven?”

    Where on Earth did you come up which such a conclusion???????????????

    All we have said is that the bible proves that your theology is wrong. We are NOT saying that a sinner needs to read the bible first before being saved. We said “the Holy Spirit convicts a sinner concerning righteousness, sin and judgement”. It is what the Holy Spirit does in leading a sinner to repentance. A sinner does not need to read those words to experience the work of the Holy Spirit. However, THEY DO need to hear the gospel so that they know WHO to believe in and what to do in response to the conviction of sin.

    In Acts 2:37-38 “Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

    Here is a clear example of the repentance process which starts with hearing the message and then coming under conviction of sin “cut to the heart” followed by repentance (change of mind) and belief in the Saviour Jesus.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs
    re my comment 12

    I feel I need to clarify things somewhat because it appears that confusion abounds regarding the free grace Alliance Movement in which Ex Preacherman is one of them.

    Here is a summary which hopefully removes the confusion:

    1) Free Grace Alliance (FGA) are neither Calvinist and are totally opposed to Lordship Salvation teachings (LS)

    2) LS are not part of FGA. However, LS do belong to Calvinism

    3) FGA have nothing to do with the calvinists’ own free grace teachings and do not hold to any of calvinists teachings.

    4) FGA have their own separate teachings about free grace = completely different from the calvinist version

    5) DTW: Most of the regular Contributors on this site are not Calvinist (nor Arminian) and are definitely not LS either and DO not preach any of the LS heresy. We do, however, hold to some of FGA’s theology regarding workless grace ***(see note below) but not to their heretical extremes regarding their teachings about non repentance and non works

    Note: *** eg, we do not believe that a sinner has to turn from his/her sins – stop doing them FIRST, before they can be saved, because a sinner cannot turn from their sins without the power of the Holy Spirit working within them. If they tried to do so it would be a “work” towards their salvation – besides they would fail miserably, anyway. They First need to be saved to receive the Holy Spirit and then they can be changed by the Holy Spirit.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks John

    Now if only those at EXP would understand this…

    “Note: *** eg, we do not believe that a sinner has to turn from his/her sins – stop doing them FIRST, before they can be saved, because a sinner cannot turn from their sins without the power of the Holy Spirit working within them. If they tried to do so it would be a “work” towards their salvation – besides they would fail miserably, anyway. They First need to be saved to receive the Holy Spirit and then they can be changed by the Holy Spirit.”

  • John Chingford

    Abe

    Regarding your comment 32

    The thief on the cross was saved because:

    Being in the very presence of the holiness of Jesus:
    1) came under conviction that he was a sinner who needed to be saved
    2) he confessed he was a sinner
    3) he believed upon Jesus and believed His words

    In that very episode we see the full repentance process: conviction of sin, confessing we are sinners in need of salvation, faith in Jesus for salvation. Notice I have not mentioned that he needed to turn from his sins. I have not mentioned it because it is NOT a requisite to salvation. However, there SHOULD be a Godly sorrow accompanying conviction of sin. We DO get the impression that the thief did have such sorrow for his sins.

    Why can’t the FGA and the Ex Preacherman site SEE THIS.

  • Redeemed

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):
    Try posting this over at XPM and see what happens even if couched in the most courteous verbage. You would probably get booted over the moon. Jack over there is rabid about this and he is gaining followers.

    They are even suggesting that discipleship is nothing but a rah rah exercise unless it ONLY includes teaching the new convert about his RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ. Of course, it IS important to be sure that concept is properly understood, but so are other fundamentals of the faith and exhorting new believers to serve the Lord and finding their niche in the Body of Christ.

    This belief borders on heretical if not totally and is most dangerous. Our friend Abe is an example of how one’s thinking can get messed up through this extremism. I hope he continues to dialogue here and comes to realize the trap he has fallen into.

    Yes, LS is false doctrine, but this is like jumping from the frying pan into the fire!

  • Carolyn

    @ Abe. What about Ananias and Sapphira. They lied to the Holy Spirit. They obviously believed the gospel to begin with but then they let covetousness/greed cloud their judgement. Will we see them in heaven?
    1 Corinthians 5:10 and Ephesians 5:5 tells us that no greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ…

    Since they did not have time to repent and no one who is greedy has any inheritance…they will not be there…how do you read this?

  • Carolyn

    I have a personal interest in the answer to this inquiry about Ananias and Sapphira. Some of my family members are in the same situation as those two and I will never see them again because they lied to me about a will. The fact of the matter is, that they didn’t have to lie, it was their money but they plotted to deceive me in order to deny me my inheritance and in the process, under false pretence, they told me that all the money had been used up. Years later found out that this was not true, that there was a lot of money and plain and simply, they had lied. I often wondered if I would see them in heaven, but if you believe the Word, then no, I will not. And that gives me great sorrow….for them. Even if they were only professors, no liar will receive an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom.

    If free grace is correct, then their lies didn’t matter. Or they were never saved to begin with. Either way, they were well acquainted with the Word and the professed Salvation.

    Does the Holy Spirit seal you when he determines your faith becomes genuine or when you just profess to believe gospel?

    Ephesians 1:12-14
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
    12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; 14 this[a] is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Sue

    I see you are still visiting us because I can see that you are informing the Ex Preacherman site of what we are saying. However, you are only partially quoting us and by so doing are effectively twisting what we have said.

    I know that Jack will not publish anything I have to say in reply to your comments and those of Pearl and John because I visited his site over a year ago and was treated very nastily by Jack. I only made ONE very courteous comment as a question but was told I was a heretic and that my comments will never be published. Therefore my first comment was rejected and deleted.

    Therefore, maybe you can pass my reply back to Pearl. I actually find myself agreeing with her. At least I think I agree. that is, if I have understood her correctly.

    Pearl said:
    “I have no problem whatsoever with the Holy Spirit convicting of sin beforehand, intended to lead one on to godly sorrow, and ultimately salvation (John 16:8-11). I don’t see that conversion is possible without realizing why Jesus died on the cross for me. But even then, I believe the Holy Spirit is an outside influence, not working from within the unbeliever and “regenerating” or imparting prevenient grace enabling him to believe. The responsibility of what to do with the evidence rests upon the soul who has been confronted by the Holy Spirit. Also, how one defines such sorrow might be a debatable one; I wonder that some make it an ongoing sorrow which, of course, reeks of Catholicism.”

    My reply:
    Yes Pearl I think I agree with everything you have said here. The conviction of the Holy Spirit (for the unsaved) IS external. It CANNOT be internal (calvinist error) because a sinner needs to FIRST be born again before the Holy Spirit abides within. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin but the sinner STILL has freewill to respond to the conviction or reject it. See my articles on Freewill:

    [removed]
    and

    [removed]
    which prove what I (and DTW) believe

    If the sinner responds favourably to the external conviction by the Holy Spirit (regarding their sinful condition, which atomatically causes a Godly sorrow – not a self examination sorrow – see Acts 2:37-38) then that person will then also recognise that Jesus is their Saviour and will believe on Him and receive Him as their Saviour.

    Once they are saved they are then justified – made righteous in God’s eyes. They are then secure for eternity and nothing can separate them. It is no longer an ongoing sorrow because they have already been forgiven. However, sanctification (after salvation) may require a different type of Godly sorrow if/whenever we sin against the Lord. That sorrow is not dependant on our salvation but upon our growth as believers and our unbroken fellowship with the Lord.

  • John Chingford

    Sue

    Would you please pose these following remarks and questions to Jack and John (specifically John)because the more that I look at their replies, the more I realise that they do not believe in any form of sorrow for sins. John says he agrees in Holy Spirit conviction of sin, but what does he consider that conviction looks like?

    I am confused by what he says because if a sinner is not MOVED by Godly sorrow at the extent of his sin to recognise his need of salvation and therefore the need to receive Christ for salvation, then what constitutes conviction of sin?

    Please do not ignore the many verses throughout the gospels and Acts which show Godly Sorrow in action by those convicted of sin BEFORE they received Jesus and believed on Him. Don’t just focus on one FAVOURITE verse Acts 16:31 (not surprised that it is your favourite because you ignore all the others which contradict your position).

    Incidentally, even that verse is preceded by the Jailer crying out “WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED”. What caused him to realise he needed salvation? Salvation from what? For him to cry out like that would indicate a conviction of sin and the realisation that he needed salvation.

  • John Chingford

    I need to clarify something I said in my one from last comment above. This is because I anticipate further nit picking, splitting hairs, picking holes criticism from the ExP site::

    I said “because a sinner needs to FIRST be born again before the Holy Spirit abides within”.

    They may say “isn’t that what calvinists say”.

    Therefore, I need to make that statement clearer. When I refer to being born again it is entirely different from what the calvinists mean by that term.

    What I mean is that once a sinner comes under conviction of sin, recognises they are a sinner who needs salvation and chooses to believe in Jesus as his Saviour from sin, he then automatically becomes a child of God. The Holy Spirit makes His home within the believer. The believer has become a new creation: the old has passed away. He is now born again. The Holy Spirit cannot live within the sinner internally BEFORE he has believed in Jesus and received Him as Saviour, ie been born again.

  • TruthfulConversation

    I need to be honest folks, because I am a straight talking person. What is with the folk from ExPman? Debs has posted lots of their comments, even though all it did was cause confusion, but she let them have their say. Try posting anything on their site! They seem to think that we are not saved..ahem…

    The subject of free grace is quite tricky, especially since Calvinists also use the term. According to Abe, we are lost and talking in circles, and we are angry mocking Lordship salvationers, and he ain’t coming back, evvvveerrrr! Seems to me they have spent an awful lot of time talking in circles themselves, and more time trying to save our sorry souls…but then even more time trying to convince each other.

    The thing is, as John C said to me, since all it takes (according to ExPm) is for someone to believe, are they saying we don’t believe in Jesus?? I mean we don’t need to be repentant according to them, right?
    So we at DTW are most definitely saved, and I guess we might as well invite all the people we know who believe in Jesus and have a great big free grace party… this is all getting so silly and petty.

  • Carolyn

    From Ex Preacherman…Abe…you came here with an agenda??? Just like the others, Sue and Jarrod…creating confusion because you came with an agenda. God forgive you for your arrogance….you know so little…if you understood that, you could learn something….

    “Abe | January 13, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    Sue wrote: “I have just been looking at your exploits and would say you can take that horse to the trough but it won’t drink because they are in fear you put arsenic in the water.”

    They are desperately lost and talking in circles, so I won’t be returning to that place. I will never go there again. They are angry mocking LS’ers (is there any other type but the angry and mocking type?). At least if they didn’t have the anger, they could be reasoned with. But I’m sufficiently confident in the Lord that, once I’ve given someone the Gospel clearly, did a few exchanges, and they’re still against it, I won’t beat my head against a wall. There are too many people that are open and want the Gospel, for me to waste time with them.”

  • Redeemed

    I think we must be living in a time when there is a new delusion popping up every day!

    People saying we are lost if we believe in Christ and accept by faith alone His atonement for our sins as a free gift but that is nullified because we believe that repentance defined correctly and biblically is involved in the process.

    How off the wall is that? They rightly expose the error of Lordship salvation, but then carry it to an extreme that is just as bad as what they are exposing!

    And folks are buying into this! How such a thing could gain traction amongst those who profess Christ is astounding!

    They rightly expose Calvinism for the evil it is, but then ensnare themselves in a delusion of their own making that rivals the false teaching they are exposing.

    And like Truthful Conversation says, they have been allowed to visit here and have a discussion, but over at their home site a wall has been erected that will not allow for free discussion. What does that tell you?
    Sounds cultish.

  • Martin Horan

    It sounds cultish, Redeemed, because it is cultish.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Carolyn

    Ananias and Saphira

    Does the bible tell us that they went to hell? In the early days of the church, God was dealing much more severely with sin in the church to enable a real reverance and fear of God in the church. It was an infant church and required real holiness and discipline to enable the expansion of God’s kingdom to spread quickly while the apostles (eye witnesses of Jesus’s life, death and resurrection) were still alive and before any apostasy (leaven) could creep in. It was a time when the church was growing dramatically. At that time, God was moving in much greater capacity with a great fear of God amongst the people. It was at that time (especially before the Bible was available in its completion) that God stepped in, in greater ways.

    By the time of Acts 5, the presence of God in great holiness was dealing seriously with the church. He would not allow anything to stop that expansion. The same thing happened at the very beginning of Israel (as a Nation) taking possesssion of the Land God had given them. Look what happened when ONE man “Achan” sinned, The whole nation suffered.

    In the same way, God made an example of Ananias and Saphira. Sin had to be dealt with, otherwise the whole church would suffer. It does not mean that they went to hell.

    Is “lying to the Holy Spirit” an unforgivable sin? Incidentally, your family members did not lie to the Holy Spirit. They lied to you. A & S lied to Peter as he spoke directly with utterance from the Holy Spirit. Can you say the same about yourself?

    The unforgivable sin (in context) is rejecting Jesus as our Saviour from sins. Actually, Jesus was talking directly to the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of being demon possessed, ie they uttered the ultimate rejection of Jesus as Messiah. Jesus then said that Israel’s house would be left desolate UNTIL they could say “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”. Israel (from that time onwards faced a long period of time not knowing the forgiveness of God AS A NATION.

    In context, it CANNOT be referring to individuals as those who could possibly commit the unforgivable sin. A & S had NOT committed it, but they were punished by an early death.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    @Carolyn RE 38 & 39

    Methinks Ananias and Sapphira are in heaven, because God chastises His children.
    1Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    Continuous disobedience on the part of a child of God could lead to premature death, as I believe was the case with A&S.

    If God killed them to send them to hell, why does He not kill at once all other unrepentant sinners, atheists, blasphemers, false prophets, etc, and send them to hell?

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    @Carolyn RE 38 & 39
    God did not kill Simon the magician of Acts 8: He was not saved. He was a deceiver.

    God did not kill Elymas the sorcerer of Acts 13: He was not saved. He was a deceiver.

    Why would He kill A&S and send them to hell?
    The context of what happens in Acts 5 begins in Acts 4:32

    Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

    Methinks A&S were among that multitude of them that “believed”.

  • Carolyn

    John and Paul…I really would like to believe that it was just discipline. I have a few questions about it as just being that, however. And hopefully I will get them answered. You better sit down for this…it’s a long one…

    Here’s the Scripture:
    3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
    Notice:
    Satan filled their heart
    They lied to the Holy Ghost
    They conceived this thing in their heart (it was premeditated, thought out, planned)
    They were showing unbelief by serving money rather than God
    When anyone lies, they are not lying to men/women, they are lying to God who sees all things…and tests the heart
    How is wilful lying by a Christian different than the liars who are in the world? They are all self serving.

    We have all sinned. And God does not strike us dead immediately. But we must repent. The older I get, the quicker I repent. I know that I’ve done things worthy of death, but still…………not willfully. I’ve fallen into diverse traps and temptations and bondages, but I am convicted and disciplined. That is Christ’s character/image being formed in me.

    In my personal case study, there was a vindictive spirit working. I mentioned before that my nice little peaceful, charismatic life blew apart and everything happened at once, including the end of a 22 year marriage. My ex was feeding my brother stories and my brother was writing me horrible, nasty emails. A malicious, relentless, religious spirit accused and besieged me until I was forced to disengage with them for my own emotional well being. God knows I am not lying.

    My mother died a year later leaving my brother with her money. She left me a token amount, maybe just to involve me in the whole affair or to appease me, I dunno. Then my brother got in touch with me by mail, told me that there was very little left after all was said and done and they only gave me the part of the will that pertained to me. I didn’t fight it. (Uh…don’t even go there…I was informed about my rights)

    My brother died shortly thereafter and his wife got the money(and incidentally, they were wealthy to begin with). And later I found out that my mother and my brother had contrived a plot so that I wouldn’t get any inheritance. And in the process, they lied…I won’t go into it but they didn’t just lie to me of course. As a professing Christian, lying is an offence to God!!!

    My point in all this is to get something cleared up in my own mind. We were all from the Pentecostal background. We were all professing believers. My brother taught end time prophecy. My mother never missed a church service. Were they sealed? Did they depart from the faith? Did they refuse to repent? If they were Christians, why were they not convicted to repent of their antagonism? If they did repent why was there no reconciliation? I could not bear the poison that they were venting on me. Perhaps if time had permitted, they would have repented…I guess we’ll never know…but there are still those reminders that liars, haters won’t inherit the kingdom. That’s what haunts me.

    Revelation 21:8
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    I really hope I am wrong. I would like to see everyone in heaven. But Ananias and Sapphira? If it had been just a reprimand, would they have died in their sin???

  • Redeemed

    Hi Carolyn,

    First of all I am sorry that you were betrayed by your brother and your mother in their wicked plot. Trust me, I know the heartache of betrayal by family members.

    I think the key here is that they were professors, not possessors. I have seen those in public ministry and on a local level say all the right things and fool everybody when in the final result they were exposed as counterfeit. It is an amazing phenomenen. And in some cases it was indicative of a Pentecostal/charismatic background based on emotion and/or a false/compromised gospel. There are multitudes wandering around professing Christ when in fact He will say on that final day as they are protesting,”I knew you not.” God could have chosen to eliminate your brother and spare you more hurt, but I don’t think it was the sin unto death.

    I agree w/John & Paul. A & S did a greedy act and they chose to be hypocrites and steal God’s glory. They could have kept part of the land for themselves, that was not the point. They wanted to appear holier than they were by saying they were giving all when they held back some for themselves. It would seem that they were believers who fell into temptation and made a bad choice and God had to make an example of them to demonstrate to the Church just how serious their sin was. And it obviously got their attention!

    What happened to you was unfair and cruel. It was not just one act, but a series of betrayals with no apparent conviction. Only God knows for sure, but this doesn’t seem to me to be a case of “sin unto death”.

    People who are mean and victictive often pay a toll in their physical bodies and your brother’s sin may have been his undoing.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Carolyn, Debs and everyone

    This article is an overflow from the “once saved always saved, once chosen always chosen” expose of calvinism for the purpose of showing how heretical calvinistic theology is. Obviously it led to the conversation about what the BIBLE actually says about eternal security. There is an obvious tendency (when discussing these matters) to bring in the false (also of gnostic origin) armininian theology of once saved NOT always saved. It is then very easy to get sidetracked from the discussion of the article.

    Debs, could you open up a new chat forum SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of discussing what the BIBLE (not preconceived theology) says about OSAS vs OSnAS? I ask, because it is a vital subject and can be very longwinded and be very sidetracking from specific articles.

    Anyway, Carolyn back to your comment number 50:

    First, regarding Rev 21:8. Again the golden rule CONTEXT.

    That verse is referring to all those who have never been born again who have never had their sins forgiven because they have rejected the ONLY one who can cleanse them from all those things.

    If we were not clothed in the righteousness of Christ (which in Revelation are referred to as “white robes”) we all would still have been included amongst those evil doers, because of our past, present and future sins.

    If it was true that any of us who did the things mentioned in that list would never inherit the kingdom of God, then I assure you that NONE of us would be experiencing the benefits of salvation (God’s kingdom) right now and NO-ONE will ever qualify to be in Heaven.

    I heard it said (correct me if they are wrong) that we have been justified and justified literally means “just as if I’d never sinned”. If that is the case with us, then it means that God will NEVER count our past, present or even future sins against us EVER. In God’s eyes we are perfect because all He sees is the righteousness of Christ in us with the words across us saying “SINS PAID IN FULL, JUSTIFIED, MADE RIGHTEOUS, BEAUTIFUL IN MY SIGHT”

    Those truly born again will NEVER be described by God in the way that those without Christ were described in Rev 21:8

    Regarding the kingdom of God. To a certain extent it is referring to the present time we are NOW in. Romans 14:17 says “the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit”. That is referring to born again believers experiencing a portion of God’s kingdom here and now. We to a certain extent have already inherited a deposit of that kingdom, here and now.

  • TruthfulConversation

    Carolyn,

    How my heart bleeds for you. I know what it is like to be betrayed by those who should love you and protect you.

    Not only was I betrayed, abused and hurt by my husband, but my own family. They judged me and had close relationship with other family that were involved in my hurt. I still struggle with unforgiveness towards so-called Christian family. What made it harder was that they were wealthy and seemed blessed in every way, whilst I struggled. Because of that, I was confused and angry with God, I could not understand why He would bless them while my life was such a mess, and they had enabled and even caused some of my problems.

    There are still many things I do not understand, sometimes it still hurts so much, I break down and sob. I even left the country I lived in to get away from them all, but some now live here too. At least I do not bump into
    any of them or see them as we live in different places. I did make mistakes and I did deserve to be disciplined by the Lord, I will never deny that to be true, but I can also say in all honesty that I tried many times to make peace with them. Despite all my efforts I was made to feel like the black sheep of the family, the sinner, the outcast.

    Today I know that many of them are reformed/charismatic and who knows what else, and although it gives me understanding, it still cuts like a knife when I think of all the years I suffered under their judgement and attitude. In fact, although my second husband’s family were not very kind to me either, they were and are unsaved, so I find it much easier to forgive them. In fact one person in particular has since passed away and it grieves me deeply that she was not saved. I had tried to witness to her often.

    I know that I have to find a way to let go of the past, and truthfully I only really think about when something reminds me of it all, but how can I expect God to forgive me if I cannot forgive them.

  • John Chingford

    Carolyn

    I forgot to mention. Regarding A & S.

    Just because it says that “satan filled their heart” does not specifically mean they were possessed. It is probably just an expression of the fact that they allowed the evil one to influence their thinking and their emotions.

    Was Peter demon possessed? Yet Jesus, speaking to Peter, said “satan get behind me”. Peter was allowing the thoughts of the enemy to influence the things he thought and said. Yet WE KNOW that Peter became a very great SAVED servant of the Lord. Peter was NOT put to death by Jesus for allowing satan to fill his heart. So, we certainly cannot assume that it was any different for A & S.

  • John Chingford

    Carolyn

    Back to Revelation 21:8, it starts by listing: “But the fearful ……..

    Doesn’t just that word discount absolutely every human being who has ever lived? It certainly would if the full list was simply taken in isolation out of context with the chapter, Book of Revelation and indeed taken out of context with what the WHOLE BIBLE teaches (on that subject) as a whole book.

    Therefore, the “fearful” or “cowardly” is simply a description (together with the rest of the characteristics in the list) of what those outside Christ look like.

  • John Chingford

    Therefore, the “fearful” or “cowardly” is simply a description (together with the rest of the characteristics in the list) of what those outside Christ look like, if they have never been clothed in their white garments.

  • Carolyn

    @Redeemed… Thanks for your reply. In thinking back, I don’t believe there was anything I could have done differently. It was an upheaval and everyone reacted out of what was in their hearts…malice is evil. Whatever else I did wrong, I’m thankful God delivered me from that. There was no calculated efforts by me to retaliate.

    Yes, betrayal…I’d like to say you become immune to it, but you don’t. However, as long as you take everything to God, the Spirit is like a protective armour…shield of faith, that repels those fiery darts. When we lower the shield and have our guard down, letting the flesh be our guide, the attacks can penetrate, even if you have thick skin.

    As to Pentecostal professors…they are a very legalistic sect and I believe that getting into the 7th Day was the first hole in the legalistic righteousness and the first step to freedom for me. If the particular Pentecostal Denomination that I was raised in had not been preaching “holiness” through keeping the commandments Ie tithing for instance, I would not have been sucked into it. But there had been no clear lines for me between law and grace.

    I do agree that being clothed with Christ means “the end of the law”. I also believe that our character is a manifestation of either genuine faith or false faith. And the door to genuine faith is not just profession. It is hearing the Word, reading the Word, fellowshipping with the Father and Son in the Word, loving the Word, being conformed to the Word and obeying the Word/Truth.

    I am coming to understand that professors are not true believers unless Christ is being formed in them. Galatians 4:19
    My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

    When I was following Pentecostal and 7th Day Adventism belief systems, the LAW was being formed in me.

    And I think that’s what I saw with the reaction of my family…anger, self righteousness and prideful arrogance manifesting. It sure wasn’t the Holy Spirit.

    With regards to Ananias and Sapphira…I noticed that Satan filled their heart. How can someone be filled with the Holy Spirit and Satan at the same time? Just an observation. The lied to the Holy Spirit because Satan filled their heart.

    Luke 22:3
    Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

    In both cases there was premeditation and then in performance of acting out the sin, they were “filled” Satan’s spirit. At least that’s how I read it.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    I can do that. What shall we call it? BTW, what is OSnAS? lol (Sorry I am having a bad day today, so me little brain is not catching on)

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, see John’s #53. He explains about the Satan filling their heart. I don’t think it means in this context that they were demon-possessed.

    Praise the Lord that you came out from under the LAW. It is a great testimony of what the Lord can do. Although your family betrayed you and took your inheritance, they were the losers.

    May the Lord continue to bless you and assure you of His love.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Carolyn
    Re Ananias and Saphira

    Actually the comment “Redeemed” was referring to is now appearing as comment 54.

    Due to the timing of when comments were published, it looks like your last comment was written by you BEFORE my comments got published even though I wrote a number of hours prior to your comments. Therefore, in case you miss my previous comments (which are direct replies to your earlier comments which are aiming to reassure you)

    please first take a look at my comments 52, 54, 55 & 56.

    Carolyn, I now have a reply to something you wrote on comment 57

    “I am coming to understand that professors are not true believers unless Christ is being formed in them. Galatians 4:19 “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you”,

    That verse is not referring to salvation or becoming born again. It could actually have 2 applications:

    1) It is discussing sanctification. It is discussing what happens to a new born again believer from day one until they die. Paul is effectively praying that the believers would grow spiritually being changed from one degree of glory to another into His image 2 Cor 3:18 We are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him.

    2) Paul is also addressing the Galatian church AS A UNIT, not specifically individuals. “When 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst”. The church becomes the place where Christ resides as the Head. The church is the BODY of Christ. As we grow together so is Christ manifest in greater ways amongst us corporately. The Galatian church were struggling to grow in grace and falling back to the law. Paul prayed that the church would finally portray Jesus in the right way and in greater ways.

    Whatever interpretation is correct, it is NOT referring to someone needing to be CHANGED FIRST before they are saved.

  • Carolyn

    John, Redeemed: The truth is, we don’t know where Ananias and Sapphira are. You are right, it does not mean that they were demon-possessed. I don’t know what it means that “Satan filled their hearts”. And it doesn’t say they went to hell. True. But it also doesn’t say that they went to heaven. After their death, we don’t know what happened to them. God is their judge. I don’t think we should try to protect them any more than any other professor of Christianity. Everything apart from what is written, we are only speculating on. (That sounded angry…I didn’t say it in anger)

    TC – in reading some of your comments from this and other threads, I think that we have a few things in common. I also had a time after the divorce when I allowed my feelings and mysticism to dictate my actions…loneliness turned out to be spelled s-t-u-p-i-d-i-t-y. I married an unbeliever. But in spite of that God has forgiven me and has been faithful to provide and protect me. Complicating factors are CFS and Hashimoto’s. But I still have a sense of humour intact. Thank God for that! And I have proved that loneliness is only a feeling…the Lord never left my side for one moment.

    Present physical conditions for me are uncomfortable. I’d rather be present with the Lord and absent from the body, but it seems that another day has dawned and I am still here. :-) See what I mean about my sense of humour? We are inseparable…although I do get serious when it comes to discussing the Lord.

    One thing about having a loft above our warehouse business, it has afforded me some extra time to spend in the Word. And that to me is more important than all the wealth. I have friends that are wealthy and miserable, bored and driven. I am content (most of the time), rich in faith and thankful. What else could I hope for in this life?

    To sum up my present status…I’m living in a dangerous place with a hedge of protection around me. It keeps me tuned into and seeking God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. Not one minute goes by that I am not looking heavenward. I’m sure that many of you have been in a similar place. Every day is a gift from God, in miracles, encouragement, wisdom, health (enough to keep me functioning) and his Presence as my constant comfort.

    People say that I am looking for the great escape in wishing for the Rapture. Yes and No. Yes, it would be nice…who wouldn’t want to escape the things that are coming on this earth? And No…I don’t fear death, either by the sword of the guillotine or by the power of any of the other last day horses that ride throughout the earth… God in me is greater.

    1 John 4:4
    Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

  • Carolyn

    ok…guys…yes it’s getting a little confusing…John I think you should move to a different local so your thoughts would be in the right order. :-)

    I have a reeeeeeeally bad headache today and so no more thinking for me. I’ll have to look at the comments when I can think straight. God Bless!

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    Thanks for opening up as new thread for OSAS vs OSnAS discussion. However, I notice that you have transferred some of the earlier comments on that subject (within THIS thread) to that one. Not all of the comments related to the flow of that conversation have been transferred which means it sounds disjointed. Also, where our comments have referred to a comment number, it no longer makes sense because the comment number we are referring to is now in a different place.

    Therefore, would you please transfer those comments (on that new thread) back to where it was, so that we start that new thread from scratch?

    As an example of what I am talking about, please see the NOW positioned comments which no longer make sense:

    1) Paul’s comment 45-46 both say “@Carolyn RE 38 & 39″ actually those 2 comments have been moved to that new thread

    2) Carolyn’s reply 47 refers to my reply which has also been moved to the new thread, so no longer makes sense

    3) Redeemed’s comment 56 says “Carolyn, see John’s #53″ Well the comment she is referring to NOW appears as comment 51 above

    4) my comment on 57 says “please first take a look at my comments 52, 54, 55 & 56.” Well, now that everything has been moved, it is NOW referring to comments (as they appear at the moment) as 49, 51,52 & 53

    Thanks Sister

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    I have also left the same comment on http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/01/09/jacob-prasch-moderate-calvinists-are-good-hyper-calvinists-are-bad/#comments

    Thanks for opening up this new thread for OSAS vs OSnAS discussion. However, I notice that you have already transferred the above comments on this subject from that previous article to this one. However, not all of the comments related to the conversation have been transferred which means it sounds disjointed. Also, where our comments (still shown on that older article) referred to a comment number, it no longer makes sense because the comment number we are referring to is now in a different place.

    Therefore, would you please transfer the above comments (on THIS new thread) back to where it was (same comment numbers they had before) and actually start this new thread from scratch?

    As an example of what I am talking about, please see the NOW positioned comments (on that older article) which no longer make sense:

    1) Paul’s comment 45-46 both say “@Carolyn RE 38 & 39″ actually those 2 comments now appear above on this thread.

    2) Carolyn’s reply 47 refers to my reply which has also been moved to this thread, so no longer makes sense

    3) Redeemed’s comment 56 says “Carolyn, see John’s #53″ Well the comment she is referring to NOW appears as comment 51

    4) my comment on 57 says “please first take a look at my comments 52, 54, 55 & 56.” Well, now that everything has been moved, it is NOW referring to comments (as they appear at the moment) as 49, 51,52 & 53

    Thanks Sister

  • Carolyn

    John and everyone: Ok… Besides Revelation 21:8, there are many other verses stating emphatically that people that do these works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. Period.

    Revelation 22:14-16
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    **Just as a side note…taking it out of context is what the 7th Day Adventist does who takes the phrase “blessed are they that do his commandments” and they make a whole doctrine out of that being the mark, the seal of those who will be saved on the Day the Lord returns. And believe me, they spend 90 percent of the time defending that doctrine because it’s so far from the truth of salvation by faith. That’s an example of taking it out of context!

    On the other hand, taking it a face value for what it says, that people that do these thing will not have the right to the tree of life, means what it says.

    We have 3 paths to follow, 3 different choices that produce very different results:

    Works of the Law
    Works of the flesh
    Works of the Spirit

    Works of the law (all the good things we do for God – religion)

    Galatians 2:16
    King James Version (KJV)
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by thefaith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Works of the Flesh (all the bad things we do that displease God)

    Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Works of the Spirit (all the things that we do in obedience to God)

    2 Corinthians 13:5
    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Titus 1:16
    They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    Deuteronomy 8:19
    And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

    If there is one thing that I have picked up from Debs, especially (she is emphatic), it is that if you are genuinely saved, you will be convicted and you will repent. If you are only a professor, you will not be convicted and you will not repent. And Redeemer is also emphatic.

    Our works will end up proving who we serve! Our own works and our own words will testify against us.

    We have one other choice as I see it. On one of the other threads, I believe it was Debs that said that she had a friend that disowned the Lord by changing over to the Jewish religion.

    We can also disown/deny him.

  • Carolyn

    @John re comment 57 Galatians 4:19 where you said: “Whatever interpretation is correct, it is NOT referring to someone needing to be CHANGED FIRST before they are saved.”

    I would totally agree with that statement. That would be a religious thinking, that we need to do something in order to be saved. It is the Spirit that gives life, that convicts and that conforms us to his image….

    And we always come back to this it seems…repentance is key to the process of sanctification. It proves genuineness of faith from a false profession.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, re #62

    I don’t know if this is relevant, but you may find this interesting. I know a lady who was raised in a religion very similar to SDA – very legalistic and Sabbath observers. She did profess Christ at the age of accountability and it was apparently a genuine profession and God knew her heart.

    In adulthood she rebelled against the legalism and became an alcolohic. Then she rejected Christ and got into liberal branch of Judaism and remained there for about 7 years. During that time Christians in her family were praying for her and one day it was like a light went on and she gave up Judaism and returned to Christ. One of the reasons she chose Judaism was because Sabbath worship was so ingrained in her. Even after returning to Christ and Bible study and those who tried to disciple her, she still continued to observe the Sabbath and was reluctant to attend church on Sunday.

    At some point she began to attend a small Baptist church, reaffirmed her faith and began to attend church and Sunday School in addition to group Bible study during the week. She had been in poor health and recently passed away. Her memorial service was a wonderful testimony of her faith journey and how the Lord had worked in her life. She was a single lady and in the latter years she ministered as best she could to children although her health hindered her from doing a whole lot.

    It was God’s grace and caring Christians whom God used in her life to minister His truth and love to her. Not every story has a happy ending, and free will enters in, but it is important that we do share the Gospel and disciple and do the work of an evangelist and intercede for others.

    Carolyn, you came out of SDA and other “detours” along the way as others have also testified, but God is faithful as long as hearts are willing.

    In the salvation process, the Holy Spirit convicts through the living and breathing Word of God and the individual either acknowledges he/she is a sinner in need of a Savior or refuses to do so. That is repentance – when the lights go on and one sees their need for a Savior and a change of mind takes place. When that happens, we are sealed unto redemption and even if we stray into wrong territory or make bad choices, if the conversion is genuine the Lord will draw us back, discipline us and help us press on. A Christian can still resist and that can lead to the “sin unto death”. But one’s salvation is intact because we didn’t/couldn’t earn it and it is not our willpower that keeps us.

    What a wonderful God we serve who is full of grace and mercy, but He does not wink at sin either before we are saved or after.

  • Jim F

    John Chingford,

    You said:

    “In that very episode we see the full repentance process: conviction of sin, confessing we are sinners in need of salvation, faith in Jesus for salvation. Notice I have not mentioned that he needed to turn from his sins. I have not mentioned it because it is NOT a requisite to salvation. However, there SHOULD be a Godly sorrow accompanying conviction of sin. We DO get the impression that the thief did have such sorrow for his sins.

    Why can’t the FGA and the Ex Preacherman site SEE THIS.”

    I post frequently at Expreacherman and I do see what you are saying there. It is much different to say that Godly sorrow should accompany conviction of sin than to say that one must turn from sins for salvation. I personally believe that Godly sorrow may indeed be present at conversion but it is not something legalistically quantifiable. (In other words, must absolutely be there in order to be legit.) What really makes our faith legit is the object of our faith – that being Jesus Christ. Experiences of sorrow can vary from person to person. Some may not appear to be all that sorrowful but do indeed change their mind putting their faith in Christ alone for salvation and thereby are saved. Sure people then should walk in the Spirit but we know that believers do not always walk in the Spirit. I also posted there my take on 2 Cor 7 in that the sorrowing there is not necessarily directly related to eternal salvation. I think it is directly related to his first letter to them. The Godly sorrow then leads in that case to them correcting their behavior but they were already believers. My guess is that many here would dispute my take but that is fine. I’m not looking for debate or anything. If my take is wrong then I am convinced that the Spirit will teach me as I continue to study God’s Word.

    Sometimes too much is put into labels like Free Grace etc. The only reason that I reluctantly use the term is because it is a decent contrast to the term “sovereign grace.” Sometimes these conversations do get too heated but I think that we must be careful of developing us verse them mentalities such as those who most frequently visit this site verse those who visit that site. I still have many friends that are Calvinists etc. I have just agreed to disagree with some of them. The other thing to note is that I have witnessed a pendulum effect as in people recovering from one error are prone to overcompensation and drifting to other errors. I do worry about seeing similar people going to far to embrace things like universalism or the brand of so called “free grace” that is the GES or crossless gospel heretics.

    Also to clear up a few things: I for one don’t believe you are all teaching Lordship and I have no ill will for believers seeking the truth even if they currently disagree with me.

  • Louise

    Hello All,

    My thoughts on the “Once saved issue” goes like this. And remember its my thoughts. Jesus died for ME. Oh he loves me so much that he died for my sins. If I am to lose my salvation because of sin why did he need to die. Nope thats not my Jesus. You see when you love Jesus so much you wish to please him and if you are in a position where you are not pleasing him well then you were never saved in the first place. I see this situation in a very simple way, almost child like I suppose. If we had to lose a precious gift called salvation then all is lost. You love Christ and so you will wish to show him in all ways. There are no grey areas. When Jesus said to the Father “I have lost not one” my love for Christ bursts open and I am reduced to tears. Our salvation is forever. If you are not a child of Gods then you are of the devils. How can we once belong to Christ then the devil. Thats confusion at its best. Thank you.

  • Rob Diamond

    This is a question to John from his response to Carolyn on 14 January, 2013 in response #47.

    Here is the statement you wrote:

    It was an infant church and required real holiness and discipline to enable the expansion of God’s kingdom to spread quickly while the apostles (eye witnesses of Jesus’s life, death and resurrection) were still alive and before any apostasy (leaven) could creep in. It was a time when the church was growing dramatically. At that time, God was moving in much greater capacity with a great fear of God amongst the people. It was at that time (especially before the Bible was available in its completion) that God stepped in, in greater ways.

    My only question is to your phrase at the beginning: “It was an infant church and required real holiness . . . ”

    Does not the Lord require real holiness in the church throughout all the history of the church?
    Your statement makes it sound like it was only for that period.

    God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Holiness requirements in Jesus are absolutes. They are not relative to time periods.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    There is an old article called: Eternal Security – Genuinely Saved, Always Saved! It would be fantastic if y’all could move your discussion there….

    Carolyn, please read the article, it’s pretty good :)

  • Redeemed

    Rob Diamond wrote:

    This is a question to John from his response to Carolyn on 14 January, 2013 in response #47.
    Here is the statement you wrote:
    It was an infant church and required real holiness and discipline to enable the expansion of God’s kingdom to spread quickly while the apostles (eye witnesses of Jesus’s life, death and resurrection) were still alive and before any apostasy (leaven) could creep in. It was a time when the church was growing dramatically. At that time, God was moving in much greater capacity with a great fear of God amongst the people. It was at that time (especially before the Bible was available in its completion) that God stepped in, in greater ways.My only question is to your phrase at the beginning: “It was an infant church and required real holiness . . . ”
    Does not the Lord require real holiness in the church throughout all the history of the church?
    Your statement makes it sound like it was only for that period.
    God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Holiness requirements in Jesus are absolutes. They are not relative to time periods.

    I think you misunderstand what John C. was trying to say. Yes, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. However, situations and circumstances are different. The establishment of the Church was a unique time in history. Surely as you look at the Bible you will see God dealing with situations and personalities in different ways. That does not mean that He changes His principles, characteristics and attributes. This situation called for drastic measures/consequences to protect the Church in it’s infancy stages.

    Today the equivalent is the “sun unto death” when a believer reaches a point where it is better to take him/her home than to allow them to continue down a destructive path when chastening fails. Also, believers will give an account at the Bema Seat of how we have lived our lives.

  • John Chingford

    To Rob Diamond comment 70

    You are correct that God does require real holiness in His people ALWAYS. He wants to change us (by HIS power) through sanctification and then glorification. The point I am making is that there was a SPECIAL demonstration of God’s power,presence at THAT time which resulted in Ananias & Saphira’s death. We see it happening in the OT before when God was moving in a special way. We saw it with the death of Achan and then we saw it when the ARK of God’s presence was being carried along and individuals tried to stop the Ark from falling to the ground. This demonstration of God’s holiness is usually at the start of a new dispensation in God’s dealings with His people UNTIL it was established.

    The reason I brought this up is because I was trying to show that A & S death was NOT because of an unforgivable sin nor because they had lost their salvation nor because they were never saved but due to God preventing falsehood from spreading in the infant church before it was established and to demonstrate His holiness, in order that the church would understand the seriousness of sin.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Jim F re comment 68.

    Thanks for being so gracious and humble in trying to understand our position and trying to be agreeable. You seem much more adaptable in trying to accept others SLIGHT differences than the rest of the crowd who write at EX Preacherman who all seem to portray bigotry, elitism, and unwilling to learn from others.

    I do hope that you continue to fellowship here. I hope you can notice that we DO try to listen and learn together in all humility. Also, Ex Preacherman get so caught up in just one small aspect of our salvation and ignore the big picture by focussing ONLY on LS and virtually nothing else. We DO try to look at the WHOLE Bible and follow its FULL instructions.

    However, there is much good in what EX Preacherman try to do regarding exposing LS and in what they teach (up to a certain point) but then it almost becomes heretical by teaching the “wide road” to conversion. They actually fill their whole vision with very little else other than getting bogged down by that ONE topic of LS, going too far to the other extreme. They also display an elitist attitude by rejecting all others outside their little group who disagree with them. On one occasion I wrote questioning some of the things which they wrote. I was immediately dismissed as a heretic with the words by email “we do not publish anything from Lordship salvation heretics” NICE!!!!!

    Is it true that all you need is to believe to be saved?

    For example is a muslim saved? Of course not. However, Muslims DO believe in Jesus. The problem is that they believe the wrong things about Jesus. So, is belief enough? Surely if a person truly has faith in the REAL Jesus they will act on that faith. For example, if you believe a table will hold your weight but you do not step onto it – where is your faith?

    By making a decision to just mentally believe in Jesus as your Saviour, it is not enough unless you truly believe and believe the right things. Belief needs to contain faith which comes not just from the mind but also from the heart. Faith is not the same as belief. Faith includes putting your trust and dependence on Jesus for your salvation. It is looking unto Jesus and asking Him to save you and make His home in you.

    What do the words “believeth in Him” mean? The modern translations use “believe”. Does believe and believeth actually 100% mean the same thing?

    Doesn’t believeth mean to believe by clinging onto by faith (i.e, believe “eth”), rather than just a simple mind belief? For those who know their Greek, please help me with this. Am I right?

    Godly Sorrow Leads to repentance

    Regarding “Godly sorrow leads to repentance”. We are not denying that Paul is writing to believers. The point I am making is that Paul may be quoting a general rule that ALSO applies to EVERYBODY. Were Israel (in the OT) born again? No, of course not, yet they DID experience a Godly sorrow (at times) which led them to repentance. Even those of Ninevah experienced this when they went around in sackcloth, repenting.

    Surely it is a general rule that Godly Sorrow leads to repentance. It is for believers and unbelievers alike. I agree that the only thing which saves us is when we decide to put our faith in Jesus as the only true Saviour from our sins as the eternal Son of God who died and was resurrected and is alive forevermore. Godly sorrow, repentance and later turning from sin DOES NOT save us but it is surely the normal consequence that accompanies faith and salvation. Those who show NO evidence of these things (at the point of faith) are surely revealing that they do not really believe?

  • Carolyn

    John F. – I looked up your blog on Ray Comfort:
    http://standforthefaith.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/how-to-be-saved-in-their-own-words-part-1-ray-comfort/

    where you say:
    “Why is Psalm 51 a model for a prayer to obtain salvation? Furthermore, why is a prayer even needed to obtain salvation? What verse or verses in the Bible say that we cannot have salvation unless we pray for it? Is not belief the requirement? What “God cares about is the attitude of your heart”? No, what God cares about is that you are unsaved and need to change your mind and believe in Jesus Christ alone. This faith is based on who He is and what he has done on the cross for your salvation.”

    Quiet salvation is no salvation as far as I’m concerned. If I am afraid to speak up because of fear of rejection or persecution, then is it really salvation? Christ died for our sins in a public way. I disagree that he is only interested in our “attitude”.

    How about Romans 10:8-10 where it says confession is made unto salvation. It’s not just a mental ascent, it is a confession.
    King James Version (KJV)
    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Also, how about:

    Matthew 10:33
    But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Are you saying that we really don’t have to confess our salvation before the world? If so, that is a cowardly way of being a Christian. And if it isn’t what you’re saying, then why wouldn’t you make a public confession? Why would you hide it?

  • Redeemed

    Re: Carolyn’s #75 – Ray Comfort

    I agree with everything you have said! Here we see the XPM crowd missing the mark…………AGAIN. They CORRECTLY point out there are problems with Comfort/Way of the Master. But AGAIN XPM fixates on their blown out of proportion pet peeve of LS and their false view of repentance.

    Yes, Comfort & Co. are to be avoided. WofM style is in your face, and confrontational. Comfort & Cameron are sloppy about the company they keep and have no problem sharing platforms w/false teachers – “end justifies the means”. Comfort/Cameron are in bed w/TBN – “The Blasphemy Network”. One can’t enter the headquarters of TBN without passing through their disgusting paganistic display. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDW0Qq3RZ1g Note: Poor quality home video, but gets the point across. Cameron interviewed Paul Washer, a Calvinist, (Washer praised J.I Packer, an avowed Calvinist) and John MacArthur (another Calvinist), on TBN. (You can find this on YouTube.)Then more recently, Cameron touted his dominionist film on devout Mormon Glenn Beck’s program.

    The WofM evangelism is “hit and run” – where is the follow-up/discipleship mandataed in the Great Commission? Doesn’t this smack of Calvinism’s perverted version of predestination?

    On the WofM website they tout these “Three Musketeers” as recommending their program – http://wayofthemaster.com/commendations.shtml

    Again, XPM can’t seem to see the forest for the trees……………

  • Redeemed

    I think Carolyn meant Jim F. I agree with John C. that Jim F. is trying to be agreeable and gracious. And I hope my assessment of his first article on his new blog was not too harsh. However, I see that it appears to give the folks at XPM another forum as they all chimed in to support him. All the same people from XPM.

    I truly hope Jim F. takes heed to John’s words of wisdom and I hope that he continues to dialog with us here and be open to what is said here.

  • Carolyn

    John F…sorry…I just re-read your comment. You were quoting Ray Comfort on the “attitude” of repentance…I misread.

    Well, that’s better, but I would say that Psalm 51 is every bit as important as any other “truth” in the Word of God. It is showing us an acceptable heart “attitude” before a holy God. It agrees with other Scripture. So I would say that not only is the right attitude of repentance needed, but also confession unto salvation.

    Being selective of verses to support our pet agendas or to qualify our formulas will not do. In that case, no matter what side we’re on…be it Lordship Salvation or Free Grace, we’re wrong. Extremes of any doctrines take us past the Word into error. ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God!!!

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

  • Carolyn

    And now, I see I even am talking to the wrong person…Jim F…not John F. ……I give up…..

  • Colin Ford

    Carolyn,

    I haven’t read the blog by John F, so I cannot comment on anything there.
    But I heartily agree with everything you say on comment No.75!

    Very well put!

  • Jim F

    John Chingford,Carolyn

    Thanks for your responses. Please let me respond in a couple segments. John- I believe that you are indeed not advocating lordship salvation or repentance as turn from sin “for” salvation. Though it may be possible that you advocate maybe a “backdoor” style of LS (for lack of a better term)that looks to try determine the genuiness of ones faith or coversion based on works or a change of direction that should be evident. If I am wrong about that then I accept the correction. We do agree in this, “Faith includes putting your trust and dependence on Jesus for your salvation.” I think what you mean by mind belief is that it is not enough for a person to believe things like Jesus is God, God is real, the Bible is true etc. What does matter is what we believe about Jesus and that we put our faith in Him trusting Him alone for salvation based on who He is (the sinless Son of God come in human flesh) and what He accomplished for us (death, burial, and resurrection). Repentance in relation to salvation is related to a change of mind about anything contrary to what I just mentioned. Whether it is a change of mind from the fact that you think there is no God, that you think in some way you can help save yourself, that you don’t think you are lost, from any other false way of salvation or false idols etc) The change of mind leads you to place your trust in Christ alone for salvation. The thing is that some will then follow and say dogmatically that therefore the person “will” show forth evidence of being changed. Sometimes this is were problems can come in. The best evidence that one believes is first the object of their faith. Without that being right then it doesn’t matter – just like the Muslim’s supposed faith. Goods works are supposed to be part of the believer’s life going forward but many factors come into play such as: what baggage does the new believer have?, what training is avaible to them?, how old are they?, do they learn quickly?, what are their spiritual gifts?, what believers are around for support and encouragement?, have they learned to walk in the Spirit?, and on and on. Judging fruit is problematic because were are not all knowing like God and people are not all the same with the same life situations. I do feel that sometimes people actually get saved and then get told by some well meaning church type that they might not have been genuine because of a particular sin that they committ. In that case I think to myself, What a tragedy? Shouldn’t we rather try to restore someone to fellowship with God rather than be quick to label true believers as not genuine? There is a trap with all of this in that a person can become so concerned with whether they were “genuine” or not that they begin to live a paralyzed, over analytical, almost legalistic life with limited joy. This is because they stop remembering the freedom in Christ of what they can do because they have put too much focus on what they can’t. I see this in churches all the time. There are many that live the Christian life practicaly as a list of rules rather than in the grace of God who has freed them from the penalty of sin and death. Not of coarse as a liscence to sin, but as a person free to live for Him and glorify Him.

  • Jim F

    Carolyn,

    There is a point where a person needs to realize and admit that they are a sinner and that they must then place their faith in Christ alone for salvation. The Bible declares were are saved the moment we believe, not the moment we believe then publicly confess. Some would call that belief plus. Now don’t get me wrong – we should confess Christ publicly. That primarily is what is so great about believer’s baptism. It is a first public profession that you identify with Christ. Things like believer’s baptism or public confessions/professions are great and honor God but do not have saving value and the lack thereof do not nullify a person’s faith. Now I realize that some to go to the extreme that public confession is necessary but to those I would say the same thing that you said to me, “Being selective of verses to support our pet agendas or to qualify our formulas will not do.” There is much more that can be said about those verses but I have to leave it for now for times sake. I can come back to it later here or at my blog.

    As for Psalm 51, sorrow like that over sin may be present before and or after conversion but it is not a prerequisite for salvation. The prerequisite was accomplished by Christ(sinless life, death, burial, and resurrection) and His salvation is appropriated by grace through faith.

  • Jim F

    Redeemed,

    You were fair enough to me so I’ll just ask you a few questions. You said “Here we see the XPM crowd missing the mark…………AGAIN. They CORRECTLY point out there are problems with Comfort/Way of the Master. But AGAIN XPM fixates on their blown out of proportion pet peeve of LS and their false view of repentance.”

    What is false about XPM’s view of repentance in your estimation? What is false about Lorship Salvation’s view of repentance and how does your view differ from the two?

    Also, blogs like mine and others like Expreacherman may seem at times to fixate on LS but I really don’t believe that is the case. It is just that there is so much out there being propagated by LS supporters that it has to be combated. Maybe one day something else will become popular and we’ll all debate that. There is also much out there to be positive about. I hope to have some things at my blog that lend toward standing for the faith and Christian growth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jim F

    >> Though it may be possible that you advocate maybe a “backdoor” style of LS

    Talk absolute nonsense…

  • Redeemed

    Jim F wrote:

    Redeemed,
    You were fair enough to me so I’ll just ask you a few questions. You said “Here we see the XPM crowd missing the mark…………AGAIN. They CORRECTLY point out there are problems with Comfort/Way of the Master. But AGAIN XPM fixates on their blown out of proportion pet peeve of LS and their false view of repentance.”
    What is false about XPM’s view of repentance in your estimation? What is false about Lorship Salvation’s view of repentance and how does your view differ from the two?

    Jim F., I give you this link to answer your questions about repentance.

    http://www.uvm.edu/~sbross/repent/repent00.html

  • Jim F

    Deborah,

    Backdoor Lordship Salvation (if there really is any such thing)is nonsense. Likewise, Lorship Salvation, Calvinism, regeneration before faith, repentance from all sin for salvation,Covenant theology, Reformed theology,Arminianism, Catholicism, Universalism, Crossless gospel etc, are also nonsense. I don’t intend to comment here much more but will check back a few times in case John, Carolyn, or Redemmed want to respond. I was initially reluctant to post here at all because I disagree with Prof. Johan Malan and his article here on salvation (Salvation Through Jesus Christ)in many aspects.

    All I can expect for any believer is for them to go back to the Word and see what is so and be persuaded by the Holy Spirit, not me. Thanks for at least allowing my comments.

  • Carolyn

    Jim F. – If we put this in human terms we might understand it better. Would you like a formula or a relationship with someone? Is God any different? He also would like a relationship. And all the conditions that apply to a relationship with you or me are similar to the conditions that God requires, since we are made in his image.

    I’ll give you an personal example. When I went through a divorce, my brother took on a religious spirit and emailed me with railing, taunting, hateful remarks. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I called the members of my family to ask forgiveness and make things right. What I didn’t mention was that my brother was alerted by one of the other members of the family and he would not answer his phone.

    On my birthday, he sent me a card. How interested was I to receive a birthday card when I had no relationship with him? Since there had been no attempt on his part to mend the relationship…only a few more high handed insults and remarks, a birthday card was an empty gesture and most unwelcome.

    My point is, that he may have been born my brother, but without a relationship as such, what kind of brother was he? Christ said, Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

    Just because you were born into a family, does not mean you have a guaranteed relationship with them. And if there is no relationship, then will God be satisfied with a formula or a nominal commitment? Can a relationship be lost? Yes. It can be. It should be obvious that not everyone who calls Christ “Lord” has a relationship with him or has faith in him.

    Matthew 7:22-24
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These were people that professed Christianity but they had no relationship with Christ. They were acting out of their own works from a sinful disposition, and seduced by religious activity. They thought they were Christians but they were not.

    How do we know when someone is a Christian? They show signs of life. They show signs of a relationship. They are hungry for the Word. They respond to Him with interest. They want to hear what he has to say. They love to talk about Him and with Him. They love others who also love Him. If these signs are not present, then I doubt they are having a relationship in Spirit and Truth.

    But it’s not to say, they won’t come alive to the Word at some time in the future. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God…so if they have ears to hear….

    And I’ll leave it there. One time comment to answer your comment. Thanks for listening.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jim F

    You have a warped idea of salvation if you think anyone here is LS IN ANY WAY. I am tired of XPM and the lot of you. No go away and spread your lies elsewhere.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Jim F re comment 85 in which you said:

    “I don’t intend to comment here much more but will check back a few times in case John, Carolyn, or Redeemed want to respond”

    Also, regarding your reply on comment 81. You imply that believers can only grow spiritually if they are in the right circumstances to grow eg being discipled by the right type of mature believers.

    Quite honestly I have a problem with those statements of yours when we consider scriptures like:

    2 Cor 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new”

    How do you account for that verse if you suggest that a believer cannot grow unless in the right circumstances to grow? The FACT IS that believers receive the Holy Spirit and are changed by THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT – not by outward circumstances but BY THE POWER OF GOD. From the moment that a person TRULY believes upon Christ they are instantaneously changed into a child of God. There MUST be a change because they are NOW a new creation the old PASSED AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Of course, the change may be different with different people but there WILL be a change!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Sue

    [delete - I said, that I have had enough of you lot from XPM - now please leave. You spread lies about us (twisting our words unlike any other) over at Expreacherman and then come here with a smile and expect us to debate you? I think not. From now on, I am just going to delete comments, like you do ours :)]

  • Jim F

    Deborah,

    I acknowledge your position and respect your choices to not allow regular posters from XPM to comment here. In light of that please let me post this as my final response here to John, Carolyn, and Redemmed.

    Redeemed,

    If you agree with Ironside then I agree with you about a great many things. Especially in light of his statment here:

    “No man believes the Gospel and rests in it for his
    own salvation until he has judged himself as a needy sinner before God. And this is repentance.”

    I would say the same thing.

    Carolyn,

    I agree with this: “These were people that professed Christianity but they had no relationship with Christ. They were acting out of their own works from a sinful disposition, and seduced by religious activity. They thought they were Christians but they were not.”

    I would add that they did not ever put their faith in Christ to save them. Also the only way one can have a relationship with God as Father is to be born again – that is to come to Him through faith in His Son. The Bible is clear on that.

    John,

    All I am saying is that the speed to which people grow in sanctification is not equal – not because of God but because of the fact that God expects us to draw near to Him – James 4. Yes, all believers have the new man. That is how I take that verse. I also know though that the old man is not eradicated. Paul talks about this in Romans 7. It is just that with the new man and Holy Spirit we are able to live for Christ and should do good works out of the Spirit’s filling and control. The problem comes in whenever we as believers choose to act out in the old man and fail to put on the new man so to speak. See the book of Ephesians, where we as beleivers, are told to put on the new man. Why would we be told to do that if it were automatic?

    That wraps up what I have to say here. Any further discussion would have to be via email or at my blog. Jack may not allow it at XPM and Deborah likewise may not allow it here.

    Thanks

    Jim F

  • TruthfulConversation

    I cannot believe that Sue has the outright cheek to come back here! Two words…stirrer and backstabber.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Jim F

    You stated above in comment 93:

    “Any further discussion would have to be via email or at my blog. Jack may not allow it at XPM and Deborah likewise may not allow it here”

    I would indeed like to have a proper email conversation with you.

    I HAVE actually written comments/questions to you on your blog but none of them were published by you. Why not? Or is it possible it went directly to your spam folder and got automatically deleted? If the latter is the cause, then how can I communicate with you? You state that I could email you but YOU DO NOT GIVE your email address on your blog either.

    What is the point of you giving such gestures to communicate with you if you have ACTUALLY made it impossible to do so??????

    Incidentally, as Debs blog DTW is the only way for ther two of us to communicate, then I ask you not to go away but continue on here (unless you can make a way for me to communicate with you elsewhere).

    By the way, Sue (and others) were banned from this site because of their nastiness and deliberate attempts to hijack the blog. You (however) are much more gracious and reasonable in your approach. Therefore, I am happy to communicate with you here and have a SENSIBLE conversation.

    Another reason that Sue has been banned is because of her personal vendetta against me. She has spread nasty slander about me on other blogs and followed me around trying to poison others against me and my blog. Yet she has the cheek/lies/paranoia to tell everyone that I have been stalking her. I find her to be a dangerous individual. So Jim WATCH YOUR BACK! Woe to you if you write anything she objects to!

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    Here is an interesting comment by Jim F (on his blog) in his defence of DTW to Sue. I think (from that) that this proves that Jim F does not have an agenda (like the rest of the EX P crowd) to hijack your blog. He seems to be a reasonable man who we CAN have dialogue with.

    This is what Jim wrote:

    http://standforthefaith.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/how-to-be-saved-in-their-own-words-part-1-ray-comfort/#comment-54

  • lindar68

    Martin Horan wrote:

    No matter which way I look at Calvin’s teaching, it strikes me as blasphemous. It’s not only unbiblical but it’s illogical. It contradicts itself. Dave Hunt’s “What Love is this?” is the definitive book on Calvinism. It is a virtual masterpiece on the subject.
    Dave has written another book worth reading called “A Calvinist’s Honest Doubts.” “Honest Doubts” and George L. Bryson’s “The Five Points of Calvinism” are two smaller books but they sum up all the basics of Calvinist doctrine and they are excellent books for those who don’t have the time or inclination to go into Calvinism as a deeper study. The comments an analysis in all three of these books are irrefutable. However, that won’t stop Calvinsits arguing against them.
    Satan himself is a wishful thinker [Rev 12:12] but he plans to go out with his guns blazing [ibid] denying what he knows to be true. Calvinists–I guess like people in all cults–have a similar mindset.

    Amen Martin! I am now re-reading What Love Is This? for the fourth time. Dave Hunt’s book Honest Doubts is simply excerpts from 3 or 4 chapters of What Love Is This? I have not read George L. Bryson’s book The Five Points of Calvinism, but Dave Hunt did quote him quite a bit.

    I agree that there really is no “gray” area when it comes to the heresy of Calvinism. Calvinism is Calvinism.

  • Polemical thinking can never be a road to balanced truth. In correcting an error, it creates a different error, often more dangerous than the original one.

    Redeemed wrote:

    Abe # 10 & 11
    You believe in “free grace”? In other words that repentance has no place in coming to Christ? Biblical repentance is NOT Lordship salvation! Free grace leads to false conversions and that is a grave danger.
    I hope you have not fallen into the trap over there at expreacherman. Expreacherman is against Lordship salvation but have taken it to a ridiculous extreme.

  • Denis

    The bible teaches that there will be false teachers and also great deception in the
    end times. I listen and compare what is said with the word of God and look to the Lord
    for guidance. The word does tell us that if a man speaks not according to the word of God
    it is because there is no light in him. I do believe that it is neccessary for people to repent and accept Jesus Christ as saviour Jesus himself said unless you repent you will
    perish.i also believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and life that without him no man
    will see God the Father.I have made mistakes as a born again christian,so did others i
    am by no means perfect, but i do not want to sin and have no desire to.Is there a change
    in my life. I can honestly answer that by saying without doubt yes and a big change.The
    thing is that it is the Lord God that brought about the change in me.Glory belongs to God.The bible teaches that every man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.God judges all things, and will judge all those who has and do bring false doctrine.

  • Denis wrote:

    The bible teaches that every man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling

    I’m sure you know this means that what God has worked in you, you must work out so that others may see the difference in your life. It does not mean that you have to contribute to your salvation.

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