Jacob Prasch – Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.

Jacob Prasch

One of Satan’s greatest lies is to try and convince you that there are different types of Calvinists, that being the moderate Calvinist and then the hyper Calvinist.  It is a load of nonsense.  All Calvinists are Calvinists who follow a doctrine compiled by demons and their pope is John Calvin a murderer of men, women and children.

Moriel Ministries says,

“While Moriel and Jacob Prasch are not Calvinistic and do not accept unconditional “Once Saved Always Saved” (as neither did John Wesley), a distinction must be made between moderate Calvinists and extreme ones.  While we do not agree with John MacArthur on a few issues (his interpretation of eternal security and Cessationism), most of his ministry is otherwise very good.”  [Emphasis added] —http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/church-issues/aberrational-theology/dan-corner

So Jacob Prasch believes in the 5 points of Calvinism is seems as he only has a problem with his “interpretation of eternal security and Cessationism”.  Jacob Prasch and those at Moriel Ministries love to talk out both sides of their mouth.  They say they are not Calvinists, but they support the doctrine of Calvinism (excluding one or 2 issues) and they support preachers of Calvinism.  For instance Jacob Prasch and Moriel Ministries often quote George Whitefield a Calvinist.

When it comes to understanding TULIP.  “It is necessary to note, moreover, that the Five Points of Calvinism are understood by many to be an interrelated, harmonious, self-contained system; thus, rejecting one point is tantamount to rejecting every point, and the falsity of one point falsifies the whole system.”[1] [Emphasis added]     You can’t be a 3 or 4 point Calvinist – there is no such thing, and anyone who says they are does not understand the doctrine of Calvinism.

Let’s look at the following individuals and see if they are moderate Calvinists, hyper Calvinists or just plain CALVINISTS who follow a doctrine of demons.  All these individuals believe the following:  Mark Driscoll, R C Sproul, Albert Mohler, Robert Morey, George Whitefield, Ray Comfort, Paul Washer, John Piper,  J C Ryle, Charles Spurgeon, John MacArthur, James White, Don Fortner….etc

  1.  Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
    • Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not–indeed he cannot–choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ–it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation–it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.
  2. Unconditional Election
    • God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
  3.  Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
    • Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
  4. Irresistible Grace
    • In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
  5. Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Thomas Lessing says:

If God is the essence of love, which of course He is, then the slightest misrepresentation of his love cannot possibly be called the truth. Both gentlemen, Paul Washer and John MacArthur, believe that Jesus did not die for everyone. Paul Washer is a wee bit more subtle in his approach to this particular “truth” and never says outrightly “Jesus did not die for everyone” but cunningly says in many of his videos on YouTube: “Jesus died the death OF HIS PEOPLE.” Who are his people? Well, of course, the elect only are God’s people. This is the kind of blasphemy John MacArthur and many other Calvinists spew out on their congregants and on the internet.

Let’s have a look and see how good John MacArthur’s ministry is along with some other Calvinists mentioned above:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=6zrS5Bzd-qk%3F

Is it true that Jesus Christ was crucified only for his people (a select few chosen ones)? If it is true, it must be from God. If not, then it is a lie and all lies emanate from the father of all lies, Satan himself. Calvinism is arguably one of the most dangerous doctrines on our planet. Everything they say about the doctrines of sanctification and living a life of holiness and absolute obedience to God is commendable but as soon as it comes to the very core of God’s will for all men, the salvation of their souls, they have it sorely wrong which borders dangerously on blasphemy.

The Calvinists’ view that God only loves the elect and that consequently Jesus only died for them, is nothing short of a partial denial of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. What else could it be than a partial denial of Jesus Christ’s incarnation when He, according to the Calvinists’ doctrines, did not die for the non-elect? If He was not crucified for the non-elect, it follows that He was not born (incarnated) for them either.

What does the Bible say about those who deny the incarnation of Jesus Christ, albeit a partial or complete denial?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)

Some history about the murderous John Calvin:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=WBypS545ab0%3F

See the following articles on John MacArthur:

That John MacArthur DENIES the precious blood of Jesus Christ and denies that it was applied in heaven: John MacArthur – Blood of Jesus Liquid / Never applied in Heaven

John Mac Arthur also believes in Lordship Salvation (Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse) which is a works based salvation.  He also says that not all elected Calvinists are promised a place in heaven as it depends on how holy they are throughout their life – this sounds incredibly similar to Islam. (http://www.soulwinning.info/wolves/macarthur-confusing.htm) and there is so much more.

John MacArthur also says you can take the Mark of the Beast, repent and still be saved:  John MacArthur – Take Mark of the Beast and Still be Saved and  Grace to You and John MacArthur – Take Mark of the Beast – No Recant

See latest article here on John MacArthurs Orbital Hermeneutics


Notes:

[1]  Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932), 59.

[2]  Romans: An Interpretative Outline (pp. 144-147), by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas /  Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932)

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Abe

So you guys believe that an in-depth knowledge of all the Bible is required to get into heaven? The thief on the cross didn’t seem to have that. But if that is what you believe, I can see that I shouldn’t come here anymore….

John Chingford

Hi Abe
re your comment 31

“So you guys believe that an in-depth knowledge of all the Bible is required to get into heaven?”

Where on Earth did you come up which such a conclusion???????????????

All we have said is that the bible proves that your theology is wrong. We are NOT saying that a sinner needs to read the bible first before being saved. We said “the Holy Spirit convicts a sinner concerning righteousness, sin and judgement”. It is what the Holy Spirit does in leading a sinner to repentance. A sinner does not need to read those words to experience the work of the Holy Spirit. However, THEY DO need to hear the gospel so that they know WHO to believe in and what to do in response to the conviction of sin.

In Acts 2:37-38 “Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Here is a clear example of the repentance process which starts with hearing the message and then coming under conviction of sin “cut to the heart” followed by repentance (change of mind) and belief in the Saviour Jesus.

John Chingford

Hi Debs
re my comment 12

I feel I need to clarify things somewhat because it appears that confusion abounds regarding the free grace Alliance Movement in which Ex Preacherman is one of them.

Here is a summary which hopefully removes the confusion:

1) Free Grace Alliance (FGA) are neither Calvinist and are totally opposed to Lordship Salvation teachings (LS)

2) LS are not part of FGA. However, LS do belong to Calvinism

3) FGA have nothing to do with the calvinists’ own free grace teachings and do not hold to any of calvinists teachings.

4) FGA have their own separate teachings about free grace = completely different from the calvinist version

5) DTW: Most of the regular Contributors on this site are not Calvinist (nor Arminian) and are definitely not LS either and DO not preach any of the LS heresy. We do, however, hold to some of FGA’s theology regarding workless grace ***(see note below) but not to their heretical extremes regarding their teachings about non repentance and non works

Note: *** eg, we do not believe that a sinner has to turn from his/her sins – stop doing them FIRST, before they can be saved, because a sinner cannot turn from their sins without the power of the Holy Spirit working within them. If they tried to do so it would be a “work” towards their salvation – besides they would fail miserably, anyway. They First need to be saved to receive the Holy Spirit and then they can be changed by the Holy Spirit.

John Chingford

Abe

Regarding your comment 32

The thief on the cross was saved because:

Being in the very presence of the holiness of Jesus:
1) came under conviction that he was a sinner who needed to be saved
2) he confessed he was a sinner
3) he believed upon Jesus and believed His words

In that very episode we see the full repentance process: conviction of sin, confessing we are sinners in need of salvation, faith in Jesus for salvation. Notice I have not mentioned that he needed to turn from his sins. I have not mentioned it because it is NOT a requisite to salvation. However, there SHOULD be a Godly sorrow accompanying conviction of sin. We DO get the impression that the thief did have such sorrow for his sins.

Why can’t the FGA and the Ex Preacherman site SEE THIS.

Redeemed

@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
Try posting this over at XPM and see what happens even if couched in the most courteous verbage. You would probably get booted over the moon. Jack over there is rabid about this and he is gaining followers.

They are even suggesting that discipleship is nothing but a rah rah exercise unless it ONLY includes teaching the new convert about his RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ. Of course, it IS important to be sure that concept is properly understood, but so are other fundamentals of the faith and exhorting new believers to serve the Lord and finding their niche in the Body of Christ.

This belief borders on heretical if not totally and is most dangerous. Our friend Abe is an example of how one’s thinking can get messed up through this extremism. I hope he continues to dialogue here and comes to realize the trap he has fallen into.

Yes, LS is false doctrine, but this is like jumping from the frying pan into the fire!

Carolyn

@ Abe. What about Ananias and Sapphira. They lied to the Holy Spirit. They obviously believed the gospel to begin with but then they let covetousness/greed cloud their judgement. Will we see them in heaven?
1 Corinthians 5:10 and Ephesians 5:5 tells us that no greedy person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ…

Since they did not have time to repent and no one who is greedy has any inheritance…they will not be there…how do you read this?

Carolyn

I have a personal interest in the answer to this inquiry about Ananias and Sapphira. Some of my family members are in the same situation as those two and I will never see them again because they lied to me about a will. The fact of the matter is, that they didn’t have to lie, it was their money but they plotted to deceive me in order to deny me my inheritance and in the process, under false pretence, they told me that all the money had been used up. Years later found out that this was not true, that there was a lot of money and plain and simply, they had lied. I often wondered if I would see them in heaven, but if you believe the Word, then no, I will not. And that gives me great sorrow….for them. Even if they were only professors, no liar will receive an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom.

If free grace is correct, then their lies didn’t matter. Or they were never saved to begin with. Either way, they were well acquainted with the Word and the professed Salvation.

Does the Holy Spirit seal you when he determines your faith becomes genuine or when you just profess to believe gospel?

Ephesians 1:12-14
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; 14 this[a] is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory.

John Chingford

Hi Sue

I see you are still visiting us because I can see that you are informing the Ex Preacherman site of what we are saying. However, you are only partially quoting us and by so doing are effectively twisting what we have said.

I know that Jack will not publish anything I have to say in reply to your comments and those of Pearl and John because I visited his site over a year ago and was treated very nastily by Jack. I only made ONE very courteous comment as a question but was told I was a heretic and that my comments will never be published. Therefore my first comment was rejected and deleted.

Therefore, maybe you can pass my reply back to Pearl. I actually find myself agreeing with her. At least I think I agree. that is, if I have understood her correctly.

Pearl said:
“I have no problem whatsoever with the Holy Spirit convicting of sin beforehand, intended to lead one on to godly sorrow, and ultimately salvation (John 16:8-11). I don’t see that conversion is possible without realizing why Jesus died on the cross for me. But even then, I believe the Holy Spirit is an outside influence, not working from within the unbeliever and “regenerating” or imparting prevenient grace enabling him to believe. The responsibility of what to do with the evidence rests upon the soul who has been confronted by the Holy Spirit. Also, how one defines such sorrow might be a debatable one; I wonder that some make it an ongoing sorrow which, of course, reeks of Catholicism.”

My reply:
Yes Pearl I think I agree with everything you have said here. The conviction of the Holy Spirit (for the unsaved) IS external. It CANNOT be internal (calvinist error) because a sinner needs to FIRST be born again before the Holy Spirit abides within. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin but the sinner STILL has freewill to respond to the conviction or reject it. See my articles on Freewill:

[removed]
and

[removed]
which prove what I (and DTW) believe

If the sinner responds favourably to the external conviction by the Holy Spirit (regarding their sinful condition, which atomatically causes a Godly sorrow – not a self examination sorrow – see Acts 2:37-38) then that person will then also recognise that Jesus is their Saviour and will believe on Him and receive Him as their Saviour.

Once they are saved they are then justified – made righteous in God’s eyes. They are then secure for eternity and nothing can separate them. It is no longer an ongoing sorrow because they have already been forgiven. However, sanctification (after salvation) may require a different type of Godly sorrow if/whenever we sin against the Lord. That sorrow is not dependant on our salvation but upon our growth as believers and our unbroken fellowship with the Lord.

John Chingford

Sue

Would you please pose these following remarks and questions to Jack and John (specifically John)because the more that I look at their replies, the more I realise that they do not believe in any form of sorrow for sins. John says he agrees in Holy Spirit conviction of sin, but what does he consider that conviction looks like?

I am confused by what he says because if a sinner is not MOVED by Godly sorrow at the extent of his sin to recognise his need of salvation and therefore the need to receive Christ for salvation, then what constitutes conviction of sin?

Please do not ignore the many verses throughout the gospels and Acts which show Godly Sorrow in action by those convicted of sin BEFORE they received Jesus and believed on Him. Don’t just focus on one FAVOURITE verse Acts 16:31 (not surprised that it is your favourite because you ignore all the others which contradict your position).

Incidentally, even that verse is preceded by the Jailer crying out “WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED”. What caused him to realise he needed salvation? Salvation from what? For him to cry out like that would indicate a conviction of sin and the realisation that he needed salvation.

John Chingford

I need to clarify something I said in my one from last comment above. This is because I anticipate further nit picking, splitting hairs, picking holes criticism from the ExP site::

I said “because a sinner needs to FIRST be born again before the Holy Spirit abides within”.

They may say “isn’t that what calvinists say”.

Therefore, I need to make that statement clearer. When I refer to being born again it is entirely different from what the calvinists mean by that term.

What I mean is that once a sinner comes under conviction of sin, recognises they are a sinner who needs salvation and chooses to believe in Jesus as his Saviour from sin, he then automatically becomes a child of God. The Holy Spirit makes His home within the believer. The believer has become a new creation: the old has passed away. He is now born again. The Holy Spirit cannot live within the sinner internally BEFORE he has believed in Jesus and received Him as Saviour, ie been born again.

TruthfulConversation

I need to be honest folks, because I am a straight talking person. What is with the folk from ExPman? Debs has posted lots of their comments, even though all it did was cause confusion, but she let them have their say. Try posting anything on their site! They seem to think that we are not saved..ahem…

The subject of free grace is quite tricky, especially since Calvinists also use the term. According to Abe, we are lost and talking in circles, and we are angry mocking Lordship salvationers, and he ain’t coming back, evvvveerrrr! Seems to me they have spent an awful lot of time talking in circles themselves, and more time trying to save our sorry souls…but then even more time trying to convince each other.

The thing is, as John C said to me, since all it takes (according to ExPm) is for someone to believe, are they saying we don’t believe in Jesus?? I mean we don’t need to be repentant according to them, right?
So we at DTW are most definitely saved, and I guess we might as well invite all the people we know who believe in Jesus and have a great big free grace party… this is all getting so silly and petty.

Carolyn

From Ex Preacherman…Abe…you came here with an agenda??? Just like the others, Sue and Jarrod…creating confusion because you came with an agenda. God forgive you for your arrogance….you know so little…if you understood that, you could learn something….

“Abe | January 13, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
Sue wrote: “I have just been looking at your exploits and would say you can take that horse to the trough but it won’t drink because they are in fear you put arsenic in the water.”

They are desperately lost and talking in circles, so I won’t be returning to that place. I will never go there again. They are angry mocking LS’ers (is there any other type but the angry and mocking type?). At least if they didn’t have the anger, they could be reasoned with. But I’m sufficiently confident in the Lord that, once I’ve given someone the Gospel clearly, did a few exchanges, and they’re still against it, I won’t beat my head against a wall. There are too many people that are open and want the Gospel, for me to waste time with them.”

Redeemed

I think we must be living in a time when there is a new delusion popping up every day!

People saying we are lost if we believe in Christ and accept by faith alone His atonement for our sins as a free gift but that is nullified because we believe that repentance defined correctly and biblically is involved in the process.

How off the wall is that? They rightly expose the error of Lordship salvation, but then carry it to an extreme that is just as bad as what they are exposing!

And folks are buying into this! How such a thing could gain traction amongst those who profess Christ is astounding!

They rightly expose Calvinism for the evil it is, but then ensnare themselves in a delusion of their own making that rivals the false teaching they are exposing.

And like Truthful Conversation says, they have been allowed to visit here and have a discussion, but over at their home site a wall has been erected that will not allow for free discussion. What does that tell you?
Sounds cultish.

Martin Horan

It sounds cultish, Redeemed, because it is cultish.

John Chingford

Hi Carolyn

Ananias and Saphira

Does the bible tell us that they went to hell? In the early days of the church, God was dealing much more severely with sin in the church to enable a real reverance and fear of God in the church. It was an infant church and required real holiness and discipline to enable the expansion of God’s kingdom to spread quickly while the apostles (eye witnesses of Jesus’s life, death and resurrection) were still alive and before any apostasy (leaven) could creep in. It was a time when the church was growing dramatically. At that time, God was moving in much greater capacity with a great fear of God amongst the people. It was at that time (especially before the Bible was available in its completion) that God stepped in, in greater ways.

By the time of Acts 5, the presence of God in great holiness was dealing seriously with the church. He would not allow anything to stop that expansion. The same thing happened at the very beginning of Israel (as a Nation) taking possesssion of the Land God had given them. Look what happened when ONE man “Achan” sinned, The whole nation suffered.

In the same way, God made an example of Ananias and Saphira. Sin had to be dealt with, otherwise the whole church would suffer. It does not mean that they went to hell.

Is “lying to the Holy Spirit” an unforgivable sin? Incidentally, your family members did not lie to the Holy Spirit. They lied to you. A & S lied to Peter as he spoke directly with utterance from the Holy Spirit. Can you say the same about yourself?

The unforgivable sin (in context) is rejecting Jesus as our Saviour from sins. Actually, Jesus was talking directly to the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of being demon possessed, ie they uttered the ultimate rejection of Jesus as Messiah. Jesus then said that Israel’s house would be left desolate UNTIL they could say “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”. Israel (from that time onwards faced a long period of time not knowing the forgiveness of God AS A NATION.

In context, it CANNOT be referring to individuals as those who could possibly commit the unforgivable sin. A & S had NOT committed it, but they were punished by an early death.

Paul (Continue in His Word)

@Carolyn RE 38 & 39

Methinks Ananias and Sapphira are in heaven, because God chastises His children.
1Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Continuous disobedience on the part of a child of God could lead to premature death, as I believe was the case with A&S.

If God killed them to send them to hell, why does He not kill at once all other unrepentant sinners, atheists, blasphemers, false prophets, etc, and send them to hell?

Paul (Continue in His Word)

@Carolyn RE 38 & 39
God did not kill Simon the magician of Acts 8: He was not saved. He was a deceiver.

God did not kill Elymas the sorcerer of Acts 13: He was not saved. He was a deceiver.

Why would He kill A&S and send them to hell?
The context of what happens in Acts 5 begins in Acts 4:32

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Methinks A&S were among that multitude of them that “believed”.

Carolyn

John and Paul…I really would like to believe that it was just discipline. I have a few questions about it as just being that, however. And hopefully I will get them answered. You better sit down for this…it’s a long one…

Here’s the Scripture:
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Notice:
Satan filled their heart
They lied to the Holy Ghost
They conceived this thing in their heart (it was premeditated, thought out, planned)
They were showing unbelief by serving money rather than God
When anyone lies, they are not lying to men/women, they are lying to God who sees all things…and tests the heart
How is wilful lying by a Christian different than the liars who are in the world? They are all self serving.

We have all sinned. And God does not strike us dead immediately. But we must repent. The older I get, the quicker I repent. I know that I’ve done things worthy of death, but still…………not willfully. I’ve fallen into diverse traps and temptations and bondages, but I am convicted and disciplined. That is Christ’s character/image being formed in me.

In my personal case study, there was a vindictive spirit working. I mentioned before that my nice little peaceful, charismatic life blew apart and everything happened at once, including the end of a 22 year marriage. My ex was feeding my brother stories and my brother was writing me horrible, nasty emails. A malicious, relentless, religious spirit accused and besieged me until I was forced to disengage with them for my own emotional well being. God knows I am not lying.

My mother died a year later leaving my brother with her money. She left me a token amount, maybe just to involve me in the whole affair or to appease me, I dunno. Then my brother got in touch with me by mail, told me that there was very little left after all was said and done and they only gave me the part of the will that pertained to me. I didn’t fight it. (Uh…don’t even go there…I was informed about my rights)

My brother died shortly thereafter and his wife got the money(and incidentally, they were wealthy to begin with). And later I found out that my mother and my brother had contrived a plot so that I wouldn’t get any inheritance. And in the process, they lied…I won’t go into it but they didn’t just lie to me of course. As a professing Christian, lying is an offence to God!!!

My point in all this is to get something cleared up in my own mind. We were all from the Pentecostal background. We were all professing believers. My brother taught end time prophecy. My mother never missed a church service. Were they sealed? Did they depart from the faith? Did they refuse to repent? If they were Christians, why were they not convicted to repent of their antagonism? If they did repent why was there no reconciliation? I could not bear the poison that they were venting on me. Perhaps if time had permitted, they would have repented…I guess we’ll never know…but there are still those reminders that liars, haters won’t inherit the kingdom. That’s what haunts me.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I really hope I am wrong. I would like to see everyone in heaven. But Ananias and Sapphira? If it had been just a reprimand, would they have died in their sin???

Redeemed

Hi Carolyn,

First of all I am sorry that you were betrayed by your brother and your mother in their wicked plot. Trust me, I know the heartache of betrayal by family members.

I think the key here is that they were professors, not possessors. I have seen those in public ministry and on a local level say all the right things and fool everybody when in the final result they were exposed as counterfeit. It is an amazing phenomenen. And in some cases it was indicative of a Pentecostal/charismatic background based on emotion and/or a false/compromised gospel. There are multitudes wandering around professing Christ when in fact He will say on that final day as they are protesting,”I knew you not.” God could have chosen to eliminate your brother and spare you more hurt, but I don’t think it was the sin unto death.

I agree w/John & Paul. A & S did a greedy act and they chose to be hypocrites and steal God’s glory. They could have kept part of the land for themselves, that was not the point. They wanted to appear holier than they were by saying they were giving all when they held back some for themselves. It would seem that they were believers who fell into temptation and made a bad choice and God had to make an example of them to demonstrate to the Church just how serious their sin was. And it obviously got their attention!

What happened to you was unfair and cruel. It was not just one act, but a series of betrayals with no apparent conviction. Only God knows for sure, but this doesn’t seem to me to be a case of “sin unto death”.

People who are mean and victictive often pay a toll in their physical bodies and your brother’s sin may have been his undoing.

John Chingford

Hi Carolyn, Debs and everyone

This article is an overflow from the “once saved always saved, once chosen always chosen” expose of calvinism for the purpose of showing how heretical calvinistic theology is. Obviously it led to the conversation about what the BIBLE actually says about eternal security. There is an obvious tendency (when discussing these matters) to bring in the false (also of gnostic origin) armininian theology of once saved NOT always saved. It is then very easy to get sidetracked from the discussion of the article.

Debs, could you open up a new chat forum SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of discussing what the BIBLE (not preconceived theology) says about OSAS vs OSnAS? I ask, because it is a vital subject and can be very longwinded and be very sidetracking from specific articles.

Anyway, Carolyn back to your comment number 50:

First, regarding Rev 21:8. Again the golden rule CONTEXT.

That verse is referring to all those who have never been born again who have never had their sins forgiven because they have rejected the ONLY one who can cleanse them from all those things.

If we were not clothed in the righteousness of Christ (which in Revelation are referred to as “white robes”) we all would still have been included amongst those evil doers, because of our past, present and future sins.

If it was true that any of us who did the things mentioned in that list would never inherit the kingdom of God, then I assure you that NONE of us would be experiencing the benefits of salvation (God’s kingdom) right now and NO-ONE will ever qualify to be in Heaven.

I heard it said (correct me if they are wrong) that we have been justified and justified literally means “just as if I’d never sinned”. If that is the case with us, then it means that God will NEVER count our past, present or even future sins against us EVER. In God’s eyes we are perfect because all He sees is the righteousness of Christ in us with the words across us saying “SINS PAID IN FULL, JUSTIFIED, MADE RIGHTEOUS, BEAUTIFUL IN MY SIGHT”

Those truly born again will NEVER be described by God in the way that those without Christ were described in Rev 21:8

Regarding the kingdom of God. To a certain extent it is referring to the present time we are NOW in. Romans 14:17 says “the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit”. That is referring to born again believers experiencing a portion of God’s kingdom here and now. We to a certain extent have already inherited a deposit of that kingdom, here and now.

TruthfulConversation

Carolyn,

How my heart bleeds for you. I know what it is like to be betrayed by those who should love you and protect you.

Not only was I betrayed, abused and hurt by my husband, but my own family. They judged me and had close relationship with other family that were involved in my hurt. I still struggle with unforgiveness towards so-called Christian family. What made it harder was that they were wealthy and seemed blessed in every way, whilst I struggled. Because of that, I was confused and angry with God, I could not understand why He would bless them while my life was such a mess, and they had enabled and even caused some of my problems.

There are still many things I do not understand, sometimes it still hurts so much, I break down and sob. I even left the country I lived in to get away from them all, but some now live here too. At least I do not bump into
any of them or see them as we live in different places. I did make mistakes and I did deserve to be disciplined by the Lord, I will never deny that to be true, but I can also say in all honesty that I tried many times to make peace with them. Despite all my efforts I was made to feel like the black sheep of the family, the sinner, the outcast.

Today I know that many of them are reformed/charismatic and who knows what else, and although it gives me understanding, it still cuts like a knife when I think of all the years I suffered under their judgement and attitude. In fact, although my second husband’s family were not very kind to me either, they were and are unsaved, so I find it much easier to forgive them. In fact one person in particular has since passed away and it grieves me deeply that she was not saved. I had tried to witness to her often.

I know that I have to find a way to let go of the past, and truthfully I only really think about when something reminds me of it all, but how can I expect God to forgive me if I cannot forgive them.

John Chingford

Carolyn

I forgot to mention. Regarding A & S.

Just because it says that “satan filled their heart” does not specifically mean they were possessed. It is probably just an expression of the fact that they allowed the evil one to influence their thinking and their emotions.

Was Peter demon possessed? Yet Jesus, speaking to Peter, said “satan get behind me”. Peter was allowing the thoughts of the enemy to influence the things he thought and said. Yet WE KNOW that Peter became a very great SAVED servant of the Lord. Peter was NOT put to death by Jesus for allowing satan to fill his heart. So, we certainly cannot assume that it was any different for A & S.

John Chingford

Carolyn

Back to Revelation 21:8, it starts by listing: “But the fearful ……..

Doesn’t just that word discount absolutely every human being who has ever lived? It certainly would if the full list was simply taken in isolation out of context with the chapter, Book of Revelation and indeed taken out of context with what the WHOLE BIBLE teaches (on that subject) as a whole book.

Therefore, the “fearful” or “cowardly” is simply a description (together with the rest of the characteristics in the list) of what those outside Christ look like.

John Chingford

Therefore, the “fearful” or “cowardly” is simply a description (together with the rest of the characteristics in the list) of what those outside Christ look like, if they have never been clothed in their white garments.

Carolyn

@Redeemed… Thanks for your reply. In thinking back, I don’t believe there was anything I could have done differently. It was an upheaval and everyone reacted out of what was in their hearts…malice is evil. Whatever else I did wrong, I’m thankful God delivered me from that. There was no calculated efforts by me to retaliate.

Yes, betrayal…I’d like to say you become immune to it, but you don’t. However, as long as you take everything to God, the Spirit is like a protective armour…shield of faith, that repels those fiery darts. When we lower the shield and have our guard down, letting the flesh be our guide, the attacks can penetrate, even if you have thick skin.

As to Pentecostal professors…they are a very legalistic sect and I believe that getting into the 7th Day was the first hole in the legalistic righteousness and the first step to freedom for me. If the particular Pentecostal Denomination that I was raised in had not been preaching “holiness” through keeping the commandments Ie tithing for instance, I would not have been sucked into it. But there had been no clear lines for me between law and grace.

I do agree that being clothed with Christ means “the end of the law”. I also believe that our character is a manifestation of either genuine faith or false faith. And the door to genuine faith is not just profession. It is hearing the Word, reading the Word, fellowshipping with the Father and Son in the Word, loving the Word, being conformed to the Word and obeying the Word/Truth.

I am coming to understand that professors are not true believers unless Christ is being formed in them. Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

When I was following Pentecostal and 7th Day Adventism belief systems, the LAW was being formed in me.

And I think that’s what I saw with the reaction of my family…anger, self righteousness and prideful arrogance manifesting. It sure wasn’t the Holy Spirit.

With regards to Ananias and Sapphira…I noticed that Satan filled their heart. How can someone be filled with the Holy Spirit and Satan at the same time? Just an observation. The lied to the Holy Spirit because Satan filled their heart.

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

In both cases there was premeditation and then in performance of acting out the sin, they were “filled” Satan’s spirit. At least that’s how I read it.

Redeemed

Carolyn, see John’s #53. He explains about the Satan filling their heart. I don’t think it means in this context that they were demon-possessed.

Praise the Lord that you came out from under the LAW. It is a great testimony of what the Lord can do. Although your family betrayed you and took your inheritance, they were the losers.

May the Lord continue to bless you and assure you of His love.

John Chingford

Hi Carolyn
Re Ananias and Saphira

Actually the comment “Redeemed” was referring to is now appearing as comment 54.

Due to the timing of when comments were published, it looks like your last comment was written by you BEFORE my comments got published even though I wrote a number of hours prior to your comments. Therefore, in case you miss my previous comments (which are direct replies to your earlier comments which are aiming to reassure you)

please first take a look at my comments 52, 54, 55 & 56.

Carolyn, I now have a reply to something you wrote on comment 57

“I am coming to understand that professors are not true believers unless Christ is being formed in them. Galatians 4:19 “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you”,

That verse is not referring to salvation or becoming born again. It could actually have 2 applications:

1) It is discussing sanctification. It is discussing what happens to a new born again believer from day one until they die. Paul is effectively praying that the believers would grow spiritually being changed from one degree of glory to another into His image 2 Cor 3:18 We are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him.

2) Paul is also addressing the Galatian church AS A UNIT, not specifically individuals. “When 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst”. The church becomes the place where Christ resides as the Head. The church is the BODY of Christ. As we grow together so is Christ manifest in greater ways amongst us corporately. The Galatian church were struggling to grow in grace and falling back to the law. Paul prayed that the church would finally portray Jesus in the right way and in greater ways.

Whatever interpretation is correct, it is NOT referring to someone needing to be CHANGED FIRST before they are saved.

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