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The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan – Faith Like Potatoes

The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan - Faith Like Potatoes

Angus buchan - Faith like Potatoes

The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan – Faith Like Potatoes

(ORIGINAL AND MOST UPDATED VERSION) It has taken me about 4 weeks to research Angus Buchan, author of ‘Faith like Potatoes’.  (This was last year 2008 when I wrote this, I had to delete my blog soon after writing this article because of threats – This article is back online now with a few updates). It’s been a long 4 weeks for me, in so much as there is very little information about him on the Internet and what he actually preaches. I’ve read over a hundred people say on blogs etc that he preaches ‘repentance and Jesus Christ’. People are flocking from all over the country to attend his conferences, the two I will mention for now is the Might Men Conference in Greytown where 60,000 men pitched tent on a farm and Loftus Rugby Stadium in Pretoria where an approximate 71,000 people came to hear Angus speak.

When I saw the photo’s of the Mighty Men Conference I could not believe what I was seeing – it really did tug at my heart strings and my eyes welled up with tears. However the first thing that came to my mind was ‘Promise Keepers’ and the Holy Spirit telling me something is wrong. Then I received photos of Loftus and I had another heart tugging moment, but again the Holy Spirit said to me that something is not right. So off I went to research Angus Buchan. Boy was that only difficult – there is hardly any information about this man, except little excerpts on his ‘faith like potatoes’ book and movie. I put off my research for another day. Mainly because I truly wanted to believe that Angus is a genuine man of God, that he does preach true repentance and points to the Cross and Jesus Christ and NOT another gospel and another Jesus Christ. The tug on my heart strings had become a spiritual tug o’ war instead. I was reminded over and over again of what the Word of God says about the last days.

Loftus Versveld Stadium (71,000 people)

Mighty Men Conference 2008 (60,000 thousand men)

Absa Stadium 2008   (40,000+ people)  – I took the photo on the far right

Mighty Men Conference 2009  (200,000 + men showed up this year)

 

 

This is going to be a very long article, please read the whole thing, then I urge you to go to your Bible and search the scriptures, study the Word of God and find yourself approved – 2 Timothy 2:15:

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”

Let those who love the truth hear the truth through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in your life.

First things first, before I get into anything else, I want to address the matter of Revival for this is the crux of Angus’ teachings.

Angus mentions revival many times:

  1. “Indeed we are living in a time of revival!” [1]
  2. “We are not praying for revival anymore, we believe that we are in revival!” [2]
  3. “My dear friends, we are in REVIVAL at the moment!” “and to ask Him to bring revival to our beloved Southern Africa.” [3]
  4. “We know that we are in revival now.” [4]
  5. “The good news is revival is here and we are part of this” [5]
  6. “We are really living in revival!” “God move in awesome miraculous ways in revival time” “Well I want to tell you that you are the revival” [6]
  7. “…and really trusting God for revival in their area” [7]
  8. “We know once again that we are in revival in South Africa!”  ” We are seeing revival in South Africa” [8]

Angus mentions many times that we are indeed living in the end times:

  1. “Even as we see things culminating, we believe that we are living in the last days. I know that we have said that for some time, but we can see that all the signs are there now and it is very exciting, because the Bible says that if Christ be for us, who can stand against us. Rom.8:31 [2]
  2. “I believe that we are in the last days and God is rallying His troops for the last battle.” [3]
  3. “The Lord has prompted me to share His intentions for His men in these last days” [5]

So we can clearly see that Angus Buchan believes wholeheartedly that we are in revival and he believes that were are clearly living in the last days as well. Is there anything out of the ordinary with his thinking?  Well…yes! I say yes because in the Word of God, Jesus spoke of the last days and gave us many warnings as to what is going to transpire. And it’s not all faith like potatoes. Jesus said there will be many false prophets rising up, deceiving many, leading many astray to a false gospel and a false Christ. Jesus warned us of three things: False Christ’s, false prophets and false signs and wonders.

Matthew 24:3-6

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 “You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.”

  • Note: ‘I am the Christ’  or “Christed”, the word Christ means anointed (one)“.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.”

  • Note: So first before the man of lawlessness is revealed we as Christians will face an apostasy, a great falling away from genuine faith in Jesus Christ to another Gospel that appears to be biblical but is not – hence the words, deceive and deception. It comes packaged in a nice pretty big box with a big ribbon on top, but inside lurks something sinister – you are being conditioned to accept the anti-Christ.

1 Timothy 4:1

1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

  • Note: Deception is just that, deception; it means you won’t be able to tell the wood from the trees UNLESS you adhere to the truth in the Bible. Anyone who says they are can’t be deceived is already deceived. People will listen to and follow men who preach a gospel that sounds so Biblical but yet at the same time their gospel is deceitful, and who is the greatest deceiver? Satan, the father of lies.

2 Timothy 3: 1,12-13

1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. … 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. [Adhere to the Word of God] 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

  • Note: Day by day, week by week, year by year, the deception will get worse and worse. We are truly in the last days. South Africa has been very sheltered from the deception that has wrought American Christianity. I would say that 90% of South Africa has no clue as to what has been going on, yet at the same time we have been subtly introduced to false teachers over the years and the Christian book stores  (CUM bookstores) are filled to the brim with books and DVDs that preach another gospel and point to another Jesus. We have been deceived and we didn’t even know it. We have been deceived because we just take for granted that what we are being taught is correct without TESTING to see if it’s true. We have slowly but surely over the years been manipulated to accept ear tickling sermons and books by well known preachers that sound Biblical but yet contains a poisonous stream of unsound teachings. This poisonous stream that has infiltrated the true Gospel of Jesus Christ is growing larger and larger each year, in so much that it’s now a strong flowing river, drowning out the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Luke 17:20-21

“Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, “Look, here it is! or There!”  for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

  • This poison is as follows: Revival in the end times accompanied with signs and wonders (healings, signs in the sky etc, transferable anointings, contemplative prayer, angels, restoring of Apostles and Prophets (5 fold ministry) and the acceptance of EXTRA Biblical revelation aka prophecy, etc. They preach repentance and Jesus Christ and speak of His Blood, but the repentance is not true repentance and the Christ they speak of is not Jesus Christ for they do NOT adhere to the whole Truth.     Isaiah 8 v 20: “To the law and to the testimony if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
  • We do not have to establish a Kingdom of God on this earth through revival or try usher in the Kingdom of God on this earth through ‘revival’ because the Kingdom of God is already amongst us. It’s Jesus Christ!! Anyone who is attempting to usher in the Kingdom of God in the last days denies the fact that Jesus Christ is the ‘Kingdom of God’ and He is already here, in the Written Word of God (Bible) for Jesus Christ is the Word.       John 1 v 1; “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

“9  that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.”

  • Note: The warning from God for the last days is very clear – love the Truth, the Word of God and you will not succumb to deception.
  • The last days are riddled with signs and wonders that encompass healing and people supposedly raised from the dead etc. But when these ministers are asked for verifiable proof of these wondrous things that have taken place they can’t provide a single bit of solid evidence. Some of them are brazen enough to have videos on their websites showing healings that have taken place – the blind see, pain is removed, cancer cured, etc. Yet no contact details are provided for the people who were healed so that we, you or anyone else can follow-up to see if they were genuinely healed or if it was it just psychological (they thought they were but turned out later they were not), has the sickness come back, what has happened to them since? Did they receive another illness in its place, or worse – what has happened to their spiritual lives; are they now finding themselves diving head first into greater deceptive doctrines because their healing was in exchange for something far worse, a demonic affliction? Of course Satan can heal – he is not dividing his kingdom if he takes away an illness and gives you something worse instead – something that will cause you to follow him instead of Jesus Christ.
  • So what’s it gonna be? Illness or a good chance of losing your salvation? Which one would you rather have? No one likes to be sick, we all know this. But guess who also knows this…yes, Satan. Sickness is one of his greatest playing cards. He knows most people will accept ‘almost’ anything to be free from illness.

I will speak more on healings a little bit later in this article as healings seem to play a part in Angus’ ministry, but for now I want to get back to Angus Buchan and some other things he has said.

Angus, huge crowds and signs in the sky

So, what is it about Angus and his ‘ability’ to draw such huge crowds? What is it that Angus actually preaches? Why is there very little information about what he really preaches – everyone has to go on ‘hear say’; ‘Someone told me that he preaches repentance and Jesus Christ’ or, ‘I heard from someone that a sign appeared above one of his gatherings which was witnessed by thousands of people – A heart shaped 3D cloud formed in a relatively clear blue sky – only God would do that, therefore Angus is truly a man of God’. Stop…say that again? A sign appeared in the sky of a heart shaped cloud and this now validates that he is truly a man of God? Did I say stop? Yes I did. Stop and listen South Africa – listen and understand what the Word of God says to a generation who seeks after signs and wonders.

Matthew 12:39

3 But he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign…”

So off I went to research again, here is what Angus Buchan had to say in a newsletter:

“Greetings, in Jesus’ precious name. I have recently returned from the Izak Steyl Stadium in Vanderbijlpark. I really want to thank God for Jurie Cilliers and his team (too many to mention), who did an outstanding job in organising this meeting. We saw 35,000+ men, women and children come to the stadium, starting at 11am. When I started speaking at 4pm, the place was absolutely pregnant with the presence of the Holy Spirit. I just thank God for what He did. We even had a sign! The people were pointing into the sky while I was preaching and I thought maybe a microlight had flown past, but there was a heart-shaped cloud in the sky above the stadium – awesome confirmation, again, from our precious Saviour that He was there in our midst![Emphasis added]

Angus said, ‘again’?   I’ll get back that that one in a moment. Anyhow Angus says, ‘Awesome confirmation’ – actually no Angus, for Jesus says,

2 Thessalonians 2:9  “…the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders…

So we can clearly see that a sign is NOT confirmation that it comes from God for Satan can make a heart shaped cloud as well.

How do we then tell ‘who’ made the sign appear.

Well we need to examine the words of the man Angus to see if what he says lines up with the Word of God – if it contradicts, then we know that the sign was not from God – for God will NEVER give a sign to endorse words spoken that contradict His Word. Angus says something interesting though, in one of his newsletters he says “May the Lord bless you as you continue to walk by faith and not by sight. [5]

So why did you say what you said above Angus, that the sign in the sky was an ‘awesome confirmation’ when we walk by faith and not by sight? Is it because this is actually what you believe: signs and wonders?

But that was not the first sign, (hence the ‘again’ in Angus’s comment above) another one appeared over the Mighty Men Conference in April 2007…here is what Angus Says, “

“I was recently sent a photograph taken at the Mighty Men Conference that we held at Shalom in April 2007, which shows a white light coming down out of a dark sky, descending upon and spreading out over the tent. I can only describe it as looking like hot butter melting and spreading over the tent.

I have not yet personally met Bruno, the man who took the photograph; he comes from Phalaborwa, a town in the northern part of South Africa. He wept when he first saw the photograph and he was reluctant to send it to me because he wasn’t sure what my reaction would be. I choose to believe it was the Glory of God over the tent, which was full to capacity., numbering seven thousand men. We had been speaking about the Light of God, about the Glory of God’s presence at that time”– Angus Buchan [10]  [Emphasis added]

That’s odd; the man in Phalaborwa was reluctant to send him the photo because he was not sure what Angus’ reaction would be? What was this man worried about? What was he expecting Angus to say; Do not follow signs and wonders for they do not validate my ministry, for the Word of God spoken in truth is what validates that what I am preaching is of God? Nope! When Angus does see he photo, he chooses to believe it was the Glory of God over the tent for they had been speaking about the ‘Light of God’. Wow! He chooses to believe? No testing the spirits as per 1 John, just believe. So again Angus’ comment above that says “May the Lord bless you as you continue to walk by faith and not by sight contradicts what Angus actually believes. He expects signs and wonders to follow him where ever he goes and will never denounce them. And by printing this in his book, ‘A Mustard Seed – A Daily Devotional’, he is telling you just that, that we need to trust him, because signs and wonders accompany his teachings, therefore he is a man of God’.

This ‘sign’ that the light over the tent was the Glory of God can be seen on the cover of A Mustard Seed.  Sorry I could not get a bigger image.   It would seem this cover is going out of print.  I wonder why.

As per above Angus speaks of REVIVAL in the last days, where the Word of God says the opposite. Who do we believe? The LIE of revival in the last days that will lead millions astray to false doctrine, or the Word of God that says you must hold fast to His Word and the Truth and PRAY because things are going to get BAD, really BAD in the end times. And the only hope we have is to rely on Him no matter how bad it gets.

The faith that Angus speaks of is an ear tickling faith of Dominionism – take South Africa back for God. God wants you to be happy, He wants you to be healthy, He wants you to prosper, He wants you to have a wonderful future. Nope, I’m sorry Angus; God never promised us any of this. Jesus said, “You will be HATED for my Name sake”. Being Hated does not bring happiness or prosperity, only persecution of which TRUE faith and belief in Jesus Christ gives us the strength, Jesus gives us the strength to carry on, whether we end up in jail for preaching the Gospel or being martyred because we refuse to follow another god.

Angus says,  “However, things are getting so critical now, that everything else seems to be fading into insignificance when it come to talking about eternal issues, things like a man’s soul, his family, his marriage, his business and his future, not to mention his nation” [1]

Since when does family, marriage, your business, your future (while you are still alive) and this nation fall into the same critical category of individual salvation? When you die you can’t take your family, business or your money with you- it’s gone! This is ‘Word of Faith’ teaching…just have faith and God will jump at your command.

Angus says, “I would really encourage you to continue to let your expectation for your life, for your family, for your country, for your vision, to come only from God.” [4]

Confused Faith

Faith is not what God can do for you, but what you can do for Him! It’s about preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ.  Your salvation and the salvation of those around you is the only thing on this earth we need to worry about!!! REAL repentance of sin, accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour that He died on the cross and shed His Blood so that you may be saved, the infilling of the Holy Spirit (and that does not mean speaking in tongues or having someone lay hands on you to receive the Holy Spirit), striving to live a holy life through the conviction of sin in your life by the Holy Spirit that when you do sin you repent.

Angus says, ” It is only the faithful that will overcome Rom.1:17 ‘The just (righteous) will live by faith’. As we see trouble brewing up in every area, politically, financially, morally, we know that we will succeed as the children of promise. [5]

Hebrew Roots Movement: 

Another error;  They attribute promises to Israel to the church. The church is not Israel and Israel is not the church. The only promise we have as spiritual children of Abraham is that of salvation (Galatians 3 v 11).  Angus’ ministry is called Shalom Ministries and has a Tabernacle on his premises

“…We will be staging it open air because we are concerned about the seating capacity in the tabernacle [at Shalom Ministries]” [5]

He has a small infatuation with Israel, like all New Apostolic Reformers do. And once again the faith he preaches is in order to ‘get something’ – success politically, financially, morally etc   [Note: Dominionists like to substitute the word ‘morals’ with ‘Kingdom Values’]

A few months ago I bought a book by C. Peter Wagner called, “Dominion! How Kingdom Action Can Change the World”.  He says;

“Christians understand that their Kingdom values should penetrate all spheres of their personal lives, their families, their businesses, their political lives and the rest” [9]

Sound familiar to what Angus says?   Hmmm, familiar is not really the word, more like identical.  These spheres are actually called the 7 Mountains of culture by the  New Apostolic Reformation.  These 7 mountains are the areas of the world they need to take control of in order to rule the world.

As per C. Peter Wagner and his agents:  Rick Joyner, John Arnott etc, they are trying to build an army of Christians who are going to take the earth back for Jesus. Now most of these preachers in America who follow this idea of thinking stem from The Vineyard Christian Fellowship who started the Toronto Blessing etc, and then came Lakeland with Todd Bentley.

An Army of Christians

I have read a lot of South African websites that seem to preach the idea of this generation being something special and promote the raising up of army of Christians that will be mighty for God (based on Joel 2) – the youth are their greatest focus for they are the least discerning.

When I email the owners/pastors of these sites to find out if they believe in Kingdom Now teaching or Restoration teaching most of them say no, some of them say (not all) that they don’t like those American preachers because most of them are heretical nut jobs and money grabbers BUT they ALL say this – they say they have all received a vision or prophecy from ‘God’ that says the same thing that the heretical nut jobs and money grabbers are saying. Now we have to ask, WHAT IS WRONG with this picture?? How can people who proclaim to be true Christians get visions/prophecies that are exactly the same as the people who proclaim New Age teachings?

So I need to pose this question to Angus, why are you promoting Revival based on Latter Rain / Dominionist /Kingdom Now teaching that people who delve into occult teachings have had visions of too ,and are trying to do the exact same thing you are? They call themselves Christians and you do too, so who do we believe to be correct? Difficult question to answer Angus, since you both believe the EXACT same thing!

After doing a bit more research with regards to some of the other ministers who accompany Angus on some of his conferences I found the name Bennie Mostert. In March this year Angus and Bennie Mostert and a few others held a conference called the Daniel Conference at the NG Church in Morelatapark in Pretoria:

“Die Daniëlkonferensie vind plaas van 14 tot 16 Maart 2008 by NG Gemeente Moreletapark se Woodlandssentrum in Pretoria. Die sprekers is Angus Buchan, drs. Johan Smith en Bennie Mostert en di. Elza Meyer en Willem Badenhorst.” [11]   [Emphasis added]

So who is Bennie Mostert? And why I am bothering to mention his name? Well…because he confirms that Angus Buchan follows Dominionist teachings and has ties to either C. Peter Wagner or his associates.

The roll of NUPSA in South Africa

by Prof Johan Malan

“An organization promoting the cause of this strange spiritual warfare in South Africa is NUPSA- Network For United Prayer in Southern Africa, with Dr. Bennie Mostert as chairman. He is a supporter of Peter Wagner’s spiritual warfare methods, promotes Wagner’s books and is affiliated to Wagner’s World Prayer Centre. He also has great admiration for George Otis and his Transformations video.

NUPSA has also become involved with the teachings of the ministry of Cleansing Stream. This comprises the new approach of spiritual warfare, but predominantly on a personal level. The principles are the same – the blame for problems are shifted from an individual to the devil and his demons that must consequently be exorcised – even from Christians! Spiritual problems are therefore not traced back to the flesh (the old sinful nature) with its passions and desires, but transferred to the devil and his demons.

Cleansing Stream found its way from America to us. Among the leading people in this ministry is Jack Hayford and Dr. Scott Bauer from The Church on the Way, and Joy Dawson of YWAM. It is claimed that the Lord will clean his church with wonders of healing and deliverance that will destroy the works of the devil. The view of Cleansing Stream is that salvation is not enough to cleanse people from demonic bindings and that other steps are required for full deliverance. They base this theory on the threefold nature of man – spirit, soul and body. According to them, only your spirit is made free at salvation; consequently demons may still hide themselves in your soul or body. You are then in need of spiritual warfare for full deliverance. According to them, you may also inherit demonic bonds, or curses, from your ancestors.

Of course, people helped by this ministry give wonderful testimonies. This is however not a valid argument to justify their ministry biblically. There are people making the same claims with regard to the blessings allegedly received from participation in the Toronto phenomenon or the Alpha course. In 2 Thessalonians 2:11 we read: “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.” That is indeed the case.

Lesson nr. 9 from Cleansing Stream teaches intercessory warfare. This includes the discovery and identification of demons with the aid of “power encounters and spiritual mapping techniques, followed by exorcising them from the people (including Christians), buildings, and even whole cities and nations.” If this technique is so efficient, why does it need to be done repeatedly?

This ministry also promotes Word of Faith teachings by suggesting that there is power in our words: “Power is released through our tongue… every word that comes from my mouth is either a blessing or a curse.” Under the heading “Words” they say:” We can learn how the mouth of the prophet [that’s you] delivers him or herself.” This is a self-redemption teaching.

NUPSA uses the error of Cleansing Stream for their approach to small groups. They are working on national strategies for the spiritual cleansing of the country and to organize worship-marches to neighbouring countries.” [12]

New Apostolic Reformation

C. Peter Wagner commissioned Todd Bentley (proven false prophet and heretic) and supported him wholeheartedly during the Lakeland Revival. Todd Bentley who ran the Lakeland Revival (Fresh Fire Ministries) in Florida from April to July 2008 was raised up by the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) who consists of (amongst others): C. Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner (a confessed Knight of Malta Templar), Patricia King, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Che Ahn, Lou Engle, Bill Johnson, Cal Pierce, Cindy Jacobs, Rodney Howard-Browne, Kim Clement etc, etc, etc, Wendy and Rory Alec (owners of God TV), Jan and Paul Crouch (Trinity Broadcasting Network, TBN) , John Arnott, John Wimber, and pretty much everyone who thinks the Elijah List and it’s owner Steve Shultz are promoting biblical teachings when in fact they are nothing more than occultists disguised as Christians.

Todd Bentley has been proved false over and over and over again, and exposed for being a liar, false prophet and charlatan – he departed from Lakeland shortly after being exposed by ABC nightline in July 2008 for running a money making racket also known as a healing ministry, except there were no genuine healings. Yet even after all this, C. Peter Wagner got on stage with Todd Bentley (just before he made a run for it) and a host of other liars and commissioned him by prophesying and decreeing over him verses in the bible that were meant for Jesus Christ only. The blasphemy that has taken place by the hands of these people is beyond comprehension, but STILL they preach and teach away to the undiscerning and MILLIONS of people are falling for it – are you one of them?

Winds in all directions

One of the biggest catch phrases (at the moment) of those who promote this diabolical teaching is, ‘Winds of Change/New Beginnings/New Wineskin’. They believe that God is moving in a new way, there is a new wine skin and that there are ‘winds of change’ blowing over the world,  i.e., revival.

“The winds of the Holy Spirit are coming, the winds of the Kingdom of God are coming, and the winds of change are coming to cities and nations around the world.” ….

“This is the day of outpouring, this is the day of revival, and this is the beginning days of revival and revivals. This revival is a fountainhead of revivals, is revival that prepares the way for other revivals to follow. This revival is a foundation of other revivals that come, the day has come that we will go from glory to glory, revival to revival and there will never be a moment without revival.”

“This is revival of divine healing, a revival of signs and wonders; this is a revival of anointing, and this is a revival of the power of God.”

“Restoration of signs and wonders has begun; the church will be covered with signs and wonders. This is a revival of anointing that church will be covered with rivers of the anointing. This revival is a restoration of revival!”

“What will follow this revival will be holiness and unity. Holiness will come by grace and of the heart, and unity of love, and unity of relationship will come.” [13]

[Note:  Ahh, unity…ALL religions/faiths uniting, joining hands under a false Jesus – Unity in Diversity]

This is what Angus Buchan has to say in his 7 July Newsletter:

“Lord Jesus, how can we not believe in You? How can we doubt that you have caused winds of revival and repentance to blow over the whole of our country?” [Emphasis added]

The message preached today is all about what God can do for you, your family, your business, your nation, your health etc. It’s a direct attack on the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The sermons of old, most find unacceptable now-a-days because the ‘hell fire and brimstone’ sermons are just so not cool anymore, and we really don’t want to hear about the sin in our lives. No we prefer the sermon where we only hear good, happy, positive things being preached, none of this negative stuff.

Well I am sorry people, SIN, SIN, SIN, SIN, SIN, SIN, SIN is what drives a big thick wedge between you and God! And the more you sin the wider the gap gets, and Satan rejoices. And I am not even talking about unbelievers here, I am taking about Christians!! And if you don’t TRULY repent of your own individual sin through Jesus Christ, by getting on your knees in the privacy of your own bedroom then yes the day will come when you will find yourself standing before God and he says, ‘I don’t know you’! We don’t like to hear this because it offends our minds and hearts, so we rather pack our pick nick baskets and go listen to someone who will tell us happy, pleasant things like how we can make our business more successful, our home life better just by having ‘faith and hope’ and if you have enough faith God will reward you with pleasantries in this life: health and wealth.

Hope and Faith

Oddly enough you can get similar results in your business or you home by attending motivational speaking conferences hosted by unbelievers. They speak of hope and faith too, either with the mention of a god (whichever one you follow) or they don’t mention one at all. When you walk out there you feel like you too can go climb Mt. Everest, anything seems possible. It’s called psychology and Angus knows how to talk the talk, just like Joyce Meyer. Its psychology mixed with Biblical scripture or as I call it, ‘Biblical psychology’ also known as a load of hogwash that detracts one from the truth of the Bible’.

Angus seems to have this thing for GROUP repentance at his gatherings where it’s more of an emotional extravaganza than anything else. Being in the presence of thousands of people is emotional and leads one to a false sense of faith, hope and repentance.  “Everyone close your eyes, lift your hands and say after me…”  is NOT true repentance. I was going to quote quite a few more of his ‘group repentance’ comments, but Shalom Ministries has update their website to a new website and 90% of what I have quoted above and what I was going to use has been removed, never the less the quote below is on his new website – you will have to create a login account to see it:

“I was so excited to see close on 100 first time commitments and literally the whole crowd repented before God and made a re commitment to Jesus.” [15] [Emphasis added]

This proves absolutely nothing. One of the biggest concerns for me and many others is the ‘argument’ that is going around that, ‘many people, thousands of people are coming to Jesus because of Angus’ teachings – therefore what he is preaching is of God.” The same argument was used for Todd Bentley’s revivals as well, that many were being ‘saved’ in Lakeland – yet the message Todd preached was laced in occult teaching about angels, portals, opening gates, opening the heavens, glory, false prophecies, etc. It’s all about the fruit I am told, if the fruit appears to look good then surely it must be good. Wrong!!!

Jesus said, in Matthew 7:16-20

16You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.”

It also says in Matthew 3 v 8,

Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance…”

In other words, if the message preached CONTRADICTS the Word of God then the fruit that follows the signs and wonders that follow can NOT be from God – the fruit that is produced is bad fruit from a thorn tree. The same applies to those supposedly saved at these revivals. If the message preached is one that will lead you to accept a false Christthough Christian unity no matter what your faith, then by who’s name are these people being saved? It’s certainly not the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. It’s a false salvation!!  And might I add that yes some people will find genuine salvation at these meetings for they seek the truth, they care for the truth, and at the SAME TIME when they are re-born of the Holy Spirit, He will open their eyes to the false teaching that surrounds them.   But 99% of people will just follow, follow anything that sounds good, they will follow the false Christ that is presented to them for they do not care for the truth.

Revival:

It’s all about Christian unity. Unite as Christians (no matter what you believe; be it Roman Catholic, Anglican, Latter Day Saints or Church of God (a branch off sect from 7th Day Adventists or even a Spiritualist) – (see 2nd snapshot below, then see last ‘church’ on the list). Just have faith and hope and ‘God’ will do wonderful things in this country and the rest of the world. You can witness the Christian unity first hand on Angus new website by going to sign up; there is a drop down list of churches of which you need to pick the one you belong too. The list is enormous. I have made snapshots of the drop down list so that it is cast in stone for all too see.

SNAPSHOT 1  SNAPSHOT 2

(Spiritualists, Mormons (Latter Day Saints) and British/Anglo Israelites for example are included in the list)   Click here to see all the ‘Church’s’ one can select on Angus Buchan’s list.

Unity in Diversity

So as we can see, it does not matter what church you attend, what unscriptural doctrine your church follows, just as long as we all unite under the ‘Christ’ that is being presented to the world today. The Roman Catholics call it the Eucharist Christ and have an ‘Evangelization program’ that TBN has bought into lock, stock and barrel. New Age-ers are awaiting their ‘Christ’ and are accepting the so called Christian revivals with open arms for it aligns to their beliefs as well. Buddhists await their ‘Christ’ and there is an astounding number of Christian Buddhists who have even been baptised in Christ’s name. Muslims are awaiting their ‘Christ’ too as more and more Muslims accept Roman Catholicism because the Virgin Mary is mentioned no less than 36 times in the Koran. Hindu’s await their ‘Christ’ as well, and we all know that Hindu’s will worship just about anything that comes in the form of a statue which includes the Blessed Mother of God.

These people I mentioned above (C Peter Wagner, John Wimber, et al.) belong to the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and so does Angus Buchan. The New Apostolic Reformation is also a part of the Emergent Church (New Age) – The NAR are just more sneakier and use terminology that is less Emergent like. But there are Emerging tell tale signs within the Angus camp, as you will see below.

Angus recently went to Ireland and preached to Protestants and Roman Catholics:    [Emphasis added below]

“This Sunday I will be in Durban and next week I go to Belfast, Northern Ireland to preach to the Protestants and the Roman Catholics and the whosoevers.” [3]

“We saw many healings, salvations and re-commitments and a stirring in the hearts of the Irish people.” … [16]

“At our meetings we had Catholics and Protestants together, surrendering their lives to Jesus Christ. It was a wonderful time of reconciliation.” [16]

Re-commitments! To what? How can a Roman Catholic re-commit to Jesus Christ? I am sure the Pope is jumping with joy at this – a reconciliation of all faiths to one Christ. So we now have Protestants and Catholics accepting a false Christ or re-committing to their false Christ, going back to their respective churches, never denouncing their heretical beliefs that go against the Word of God and repenting and thinking themselves ‘saved’. Great, I feel so much more at ease now.

Everything is ’emerging’:  Roman Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Islam and Christians

A strange verse by Angus on his website:

“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside the weight and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and run the race that is set before us”   [3] [Emphasis added]

So you just lay it aside?  Sweep it under the carpet?  Make like it does not exist?  So much for teaching genuine repentance of sin.  Because of Angus mission to unify all faiths. It is easy for him to use a verse out of context because it is easy for all false Christian faiths to just ‘lay aside their sin…’ etc.  Based on the countless verses in the Bible regarding the full gospel of Jesus Christ and genuine repentance of sin through Jesus Christ, this verse is strange as it has no place in Angus’ false teaching.

God TV and TBN:

Angus is promoted heavily by God TV and TBN- the two biggest promoters of false prophets, liars, charlatans and blasphemers on this earth. Wendy Alec owner of God TV prophesied that Jesus was going to physically show up on Todd Bentley’s stage on the 8th June 2008 – of course this never happened. (click here for false prophecy by Wendy Alec, God TV amongst other things). And Paul Crouch and his wife Jan share an ecumenical bed with the Pope.  There are hundreds of books on the TBN online bookstore that promote Roman Catholicism, Mary the Queen of Heaven, Rosaries, the Eucharist Christ, etc.

“The GOD TV channel will be broadcasting the event LIVE to all their viewers throughout the world, starting from 2.30pm SA time. They tell me that they have access to a viewership of approximately 500 million people (amazing)!” [Emphasis added]

“I’m also on TV, recorded each week here on the farm and then broadcast every week on TBN, CTV and the Rhema Channel.” [Emphasis added]

Angus and his Healing Ministry:

“On Sunday, we had a healing service at Shalom …” 2nd July 2008. [15]

Angus then spearheads this notion of signs and wonders accompanying him even further when again he writes in his book, ‘Jesus…a Farmer…and Miracles’:

“And they went out and preached everywhere the Lord working with them and confirming the Word through the accompanying signs. Amen. Mark 16. v20. People knew that Jesus was God because of the miralces [sic] He performed. However, that was not His motive for healing the sick or setting the captives free. Jesus had “compassion” for the sick and the hurting. So much so that He wept at the tomb of Lazarus when He saw the family grieving. Anyone desiring to be used by our Lord for Divine Healing must have a heart for those who suffer because Jesus uses hearts and hands and compassion to heal the sick. Mark 16 v20. [10] [Emphasis added] 

So all you need is compassion and a desire to be used by the Lord….hmmm, does not matter if what you preach contradicts the Bible.

This quote above is not the first time I have heard Angus speaking about his healing ministry.

Now what does the Word of God say about the gift of healing, please click here. I have decided to just include this link instead of typing it out to save me time. The problem with Angus’ healing ministry etc, is that these signs were only given to the Apostles. Those who had the great task of taking the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations, the power given to them was to confirm the message they had to deliver. They then wrote the message down, which became the Word of God to us, God’s final Word to us – with no one adding to it and no one taking away from it. These men were given great power for they had the most difficult task ahead of them – they were imprisoned, beaten, tortured and martyred in the most dreadful of ways.

“The new message delivered by the Apostles was confirmed by these signs. Once the message was written down, the signs ceased to be the confirming agent and the Bible confirms itself.” [17]

Satan’s greatest lie is to convince you that the ‘gift of healing’ still plays a major role in the church today, this is not true, for if it was we would have the most terrible time trying to discern under whose ‘power’ the healing took place.

Does God heal? Of course He does!  But not at the hands of a man who claims he has a gift of healing or healings form part of his ministry. I know personally and have heard of people who were truly healed by God – they approached Him in personal prayer and God sovereignly chose to heal them. Genuine healings are far and few in between. And yes people can pray for you to be healed but that does not mean God will heal you. It is God who makes the final decision in the end. He has His reasons for everything He does.

Ultimately ones salvation is more important that being healed. Are you so willing to take a chance on your salvation by going to a man who supposedly heals people in Jesus’ name just for the sake of not being ill while still on earth? I hope not.

Jesus Christ of the Bible and the Jesus Christ of the New Age

Please read and understand this verse, many people just read it, but never grasp what is actually being said – it’s like water on a ducks back to most.

Matthew 7:21-23; 21

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?‘ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Just because someone uses the name of Jesus and perform miracles does not mean he is of God – quite the contrary.

Prosperity:

Lastly before I end, I want to talk about prosperity. Many Christians follow the Word of Faith movement that has over taken our churches and ultimately led us to where we are today, an apostasy, (not that they are totally to blame) all agree that God wants to prosper us and will use the Bible and pull out verses to try back up their claims. I am going to now show you WHO this earth and its glory (riches) belongs too.  Our riches are with Jesus in Heaven; in receiving eternal life – but for those who accept Him as the Son of God and believe. Our riches are not on this earth.

Luke 4:5-8

5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours. 8 Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'”

Faith like Potatoes, the book and movie:

I had actually watched the video about +/- 4 years ago at a company I worked for. We were made to watch it as part of a team building exercise. Funnily enough, everyone found the movie inspirational;  from those interested in New Age Spiritualism, Hindus, right down to the last Muslim were emotionally affected by the movie – yet no one got saved.

We had a discussion afterwards on how to take the ‘principles’ given in this movie and apply them to our lives and our workplace, no mention of Jesus Christ and repentance of sin, just ‘learn and apply’, it was all about living a ‘good life’ and ‘accepting’ everyone around you no matter what they believed.  I was so unimpressed with the movie that I actually forgot all about it, until years later I received an email on the Mighty Men Conference that mentioned Angus Buchan. I thought, “Who is this man, and why does ‘Faith like Potatoes’ sound so familiar?” I let the photo’s overtake my logic; as I said above, I really wanted to believe he was the real deal. But through intensive research it is clear that all is not what it appears to be.

Quotes below taken from here by Shaun Willcock (biblebasedministries.co.uk). I encourage you to go read the full article by Shaun. [Emphasis added]

“In September 2006 a new religious movie premiered in South Africa, called Faith Like Potatoes.I say a religious movie rather than a Christian movie, because although it claims to be based on the life story of South African farmer and Charismatic evangelist Angus Buchan, it is not a biblically sound Christian film.”  

“According to one reviewer, “The film depicts some incredible miracles that God accomplishes through and around Angus. Perhaps, the most awe-inspiring part of the film is the point when, through the prayer of Angus, God raises to life a farm worker who had been struck dead by lightning” (Africa Christian Action film review).”  

[Note:  Todd Bentley claimed 32 people raised from the dead during Lakeland, unfortunately for him every one of these claims was proved false, and not one person came forward to help him verify his claims.  Yet he continued to lie to the millions of people following him, telling them it was true. They believed his every word; Todd could not put a foot wrong with those who desperately wanted to experience God.]

Quotes continued from biblebasedministries.co.uk:

“…Frank Rautenbach, the actor who plays the part of Angus Buchan and who had previously starred in a South African soap opera, said: “It was of paramount importance to me that we should make a real movie and not a “religious” one…. the most attractive thing to me about this role was the message of hope that the movie brings. Hope in spite of the difficulties of life.

“A truly Christian movie would not simply bring a “message of hope”. It would uncompromisingly bring the message of hope in Christ!”

“When the movie premiered in South Africa, it was reported that it did so to a ‘star-studded line-up’, the  who’s who of South African actors, movie-makers, entertainers, sports people, Christian leaders, and musicians.” Just one question arises here: Why? Why was this important to the movie’s producers? Why was it relevant at all? This is merely following the ways of the world, playing to the gallery, glorying in the world of showbiz.

Mark 13:12-13;

“12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. 13 “You will be hated by ALL because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

These words above are Jesus’ words. The real Jesus Christ that you barely hear preached today is HATED, the counterfeit Jesus preached today…everyone LOVES. This is why ‘faith like potatoes’ is NOT a Christian movie, because everyone finds it acceptable!!!

New Apostolic Reformation…and it’s obsession with the Hebrew Calendar and Numbers (part of the Hebrew Roots Movement)

Taken from here – Die Erdekruik/The Vessel newspaper

“Die Erdekruik/The Vessel newspaper believes with thousands of others, that the year 2008 (the number ‘8’ has the significance of New Beginnings in the Bible) is a turning point for South Africa. With Angus Buchan, we proclaim in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, that there is hope for our country.” [Emphasis added]

[Update:  Die Erdekruik/The Vessel newspaper printed the 2 page newspaper at the Absa 2008 gathering in which Kobus Van Rensburg received quite a bit of advertising space.]

Taken here from the Elijah List – a prophecy by C. Peter Wagner, Cindy Jacobs, and many others: Word of the Lord for 2008 and Beyond

“2008: The Year to Possess the Gates…This year the Holy Spirit keyed off of the number “8” to us. The number 8 represents new beginnings. God wants us to go through new doors (or gates) to go to a new level in everything we do. The Lord cautioned us that while many want to experience the new wine (i.e., new moves of God), there are some who want to “wear their old robes,” or that which is comfortable to them, into this new season of time. This will not work. It is critical that we all are willing to give up old practices, structures, and the influence of relationships that tie us to the old if they refuse to allow us to move into the new things.” [Emphasis added]

[Note: These people that Wagner is referring too, who wear old robes and refuse to give up old practices, are those who hold onto scripture for dear life and refuse to follow their New Age Spiritual utterances.]

So once again we have South Africans speaking the SAME message that false prophets like C. Peter Wagner and his diabolical agents Rick Joyner et al. are promoting…how is this possible?  Because it’s NOT biblical!

I truly pray that after reading this article, that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you and your eyes are opened as to what is going on in South Africa and the deception that has arisen is not something to be taken lightly. This has been planned I believe…planned by the New Apostolic Reformation, through visions and prophecy given by none other than Satan himself. Why do I say so? Here is why…

Taken from here: “There is great prophetic interest in South Africa and its southern coastline from international circles. The major reason for this is because of the many prophecies that have gone out about the latter rain move of God that is to erupt from South Africa and spread into the nations.

The well-known prophet, Rick Joyner, visited Cape Town, South Africa in July 2004, and during a powerful prophetic conference on 22 July 2004, said that God is about to reveal powerful hidden ministries that are centered along the southern coastline of South Africa.[Emphasis added]

Angus’ ministry fits their prophecy perfectly, however Angus is NOT the only one, he is only the start of what is yet to come. He is just a puppet on a string.

  • Rick Joyner (Morning Star Ministries) is an Occultist who calls himself a Christian.  He is a Knight of Malta Templar, promotes civil war within the church,  and is successfully aiding the rise of Joel’s Army.  See here —> Rick Joyner – Dressed as a Knight of Malta

Conclusion

We are TRULY in the LAST DAYS. Watch and Pray!!! Be on Guard at all times, adhere to the Word of God at all times – question, test and weight ALL things to the Word of God BEFORE you deem it to be correct. Do not be swindled into accepting things just because we need to believe by faith and accept every message that comes our way no matter how Biblical it MAY seem – TEST it first! And remember experience and emotions DO NOT validate that what is spoken or what manifests (signs and wonders) are from God.

The number of Wolves out number the Sheep.

While I am at it here is the correct interpretation of 2 Chronicles 7:14 seeing as though this is the verse so miss-used by these people to do nothing but deceive.

2 Chronicles 7:14

“14 and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.”

This verse is for Israel and Israel only. If they humbled themselves and sought after God through prayer, longing for Him and repenting of their wicked ways, God would forgive them of their sin and heal their land.   However!  Every verse in the Bible applies to every individual person at a personal spiritual relationship with God through Jesus Christ His Son and the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit which leads to repentance of sin in our own lives – of which repentance is an ongoing part of one’s relationship with Jesus.

You do NOT repent on behalf of others lives, or your next door neighbour, the government, or an entire nation for that matter.  The ‘heal their land’ in this verse means that if you personally seeks after God, humble yourself, genuinely REPENT of your SIN (wicked ways) and actually CHANGE your ways;  God will hear you, forgive you and He will save you, and bring you back into a relationship with Him.

For God to heal an entire nation in this day and age because a few thousand people got together and repented on behalf of others in this country is ludicrous to say the least. The Bible clearly states that in the last days everyone will follow a false Christ and turn away from genuine teaching. And it’s happening right before your own eyes and you can’t see it.  It also clearly states that when the world seeks peace and reconciliation, it’s all a lie.  It’s a false peace and false reconciliation to a false Christ.  The Bible says:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4

2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.  3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.  4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

So when the world cries for peace and unity and being one global community so then starts the beginnings of the coming of the Tribulation.  It will overcome those who are unbelievers, who refuse the truth.  But the brethren (those who are truly born again) can see what is clearly taking place for they love the truth of God’s Word and we will NOT be surprised when the lies of world peace and the lies of the anti-Christ turns into death and destruction.  I am not one bit surprised right now and I know that many other genuine Christians out there are not one bit surprised either, and we can’t be silent and need to warn with long-suffering.

But the message for us (the true Body of Christ) in God’s Word is too not worry, too not fear, for He will look after us.  He also tells us to watch and pray and be prepared spiritually at all times.  And being prepared does not mean growing organic food, or climbing to the tops of mountains to seek spiritual refuge.


 

Updated: 
– 28 August 2008
– 9 May 2009:  Absa Stadium, Mighty Men Conference 2009, Image of Mustard Seed – A Daily Devotional book
– 28 May 2009:  Correction in formatting and typo’s plus extra Biblical verses with explanations.
-9 April 2010:  Link added to list of ‘denominations’ one can select on Shalom Ministries website.
30 April 2010:  Heading “A strange comment by Angus on his website” should have said “A strange verse by Angus on his website”  with explanation.
       
References:
[Please note that [1-8] do no longer work as Shalom Trust Ministries website was revamped and most of the newsletters posted by Angus have been removed]
[1]  url removed from the internet
[2] url removed from the internet
[3] url removed from the internet
[4] url removed from the internet
[5] url removed from the internet
[6] url removed from the internet
[7] url removed from the internet 
[8] url removed from the internet
[9] C. Peter Wager – Dominion! How Kingdom Action Can Change the World, 2008. pg 16.
[10] url removed from the internet
[11] url removed from the internet
[12] http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Transformations.htm
[13] http://watchmenview.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html
[14] url removed from the internet
[15] url removed from the internet
[16] url removed from the internet
[17] url removed from the internet
    
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293 comments to The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan – Faith Like Potatoes

  • ian

    yet another peron who thinks they have the exclusive jesus franchise, what a joke

  • Lance Blackwood

    Hi just a quick mail to say I am so concerned that there are so many websites that are blasting christians. we are living in the last times where many are claiming to have divine revelation about prophets, apostles and false prophets and apostles.
    We live in a world where flesh has taken over divine appointment. I believe that many of these men and women start out with divine appointments but then get carried away with flesh and self indulgence. Too many christians chase a sign or a word from a prophet to tickle their itching ears. We are told to ask, seek and knock, however that is too long for modern day christians as we live in a fast food mentality western society and that has got into our churches and christian lives. My energy is not focussed on exposing people who have moved from the truth but on preaching the true word of God that will see a desperate world come to true repentance and the knowledge that Jesus is the way, truth and light.

  • Discerning The World

    >> blasting christians

    They are not christians, if they were they would not be preaching lies. If no alarm goes off in the building to warn of a fire, then people will get burnt. The alarm is the Word of God being preached to expose the lies.

  • Discerning The World

    >> The inaccuracies are astounding

    Would you mind telling us what those inacuracies are? So we can all be warned of the new updates that have taken place within the New Apostolic Reformation.

    >> May God forgive you and may He bring you to the truth and to the repentance that you are preaching.

    Ditto

  • faith

    How very sad that an article like this has been published on the Web. The inaccuracies are astounding and the fact that you are maligning good men who are preaching the gospel is deeply disturbing. May God forgive you and may He bring you to the truth and to the repentance that you are preaching.

  • Shaun Krause

    Hey man,

    Uncle Angus is a remarkable man who has done a lot for South Africa and many other countries in the world. His preach is concise, straight to the point and very convicting. I think you need to rewrite your article again and do some more research.

    Your interpretation of scripture is extremely literally. Take for example scripture 2 Chron 7:14. If I was to follow your interpretation which ignore proper exposition of scripture then that verse would mean nothing for the modern church. But if you reads it in context and applies it to your own life then one understands that as a people we need to turn from sin and towards God which allows God to heal, bless or cleanse or land – which ever makes you happy.

    I’d also like to comment on your quotation about:{Ultimately ones salvation is more important that being healed. Are you so willing to take a chance on your salvation by going to a man who supposedly heals people in Jesus’ name just for the sake of not being ill while still on earth?} When has Angus ever promote healing above salvation.

    How about a scripture for this phrase: {The new message delivered by the Apostles was confirmed by these signs. Once the message was written down, the signs ceased to be the confirming agent and the Bible confirms itself.” [17]} and don’t give me 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 which is clearly refering God restoring of man.

    I’m not sure if your familiar with South Africa and its conditions. It is a place in dire need of not just evangelism but discipleship too. People in South Africa need the gospel and they can’t afford too listen to blessing doctrines and the likes. Angus is one of the honest and humble men I’ve ever had the priveledge of hearing share.

    Lastly I wonder why someone who knows his bible would waste his time breaking down ministry instead of spreading the gospel.

    1 Cor 8 1-We know that we all possess knowledge.[a] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2-The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3-But the man who loves God is known by God.

    You might have some knowledge but I haven’t read any love. May be you should judge yourself with the some judgement you judge others.

  • Discerning The World

    >> and very convicting

    Isn’t he just.

    >> I think you need to rewrite your article again and do some more research.

    Why don’t you help me.

    >> Take for example scripture 2 Chron 7:14.

    This verse is so over quoted by the New Apostolic Reformation in this country its become lasssstttttt season already. This verse can be appled to an individual born again christian within his own individual life, just as His ENTIRE Word (Bible) can be applied to each and ever one of His Chilren. But not an entire nation, like South Africa or even the USA, or China for that matter, because not one of these countries are Israel. Or do you think we are Israelites? Do you think we should all call God and Jesus by their hebrew names too otherwise HE does not hear us?

    >> When has Angus ever promote healing above salvation.

    Who says he was even preaching genuine salvation? Oh that reminds me, I need to write down his entire Absa stadium speach in a short article where quoting him word for word where he denies Jesus Christ 4 times. He does this my telling people that the rain that is coming down is actually washing away their sins.

    >> I’m not sure if your familiar with South Africa and its conditions.

    Born here, live here. Btw, if you love this country so much why are you in NZ instead of here in SA to help build it up and transform it the Emergng way.

    >> People in South Africa need the gospel and they can’t afford too listen to blessing doctrines and the likes.

    Um, this is all Angus preaches is prosperity gospel. Unless blessings and prosperty is not the same thing for you.

    >> Angus is one of the honest and humble men I’ve ever had the priveledge of hearing share

    Being humble, nice, huggable, etc., does not make what he speaks the truth.

    >> 1 Cor 8 1-We know that we all possess knowledge.[a] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2-The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3-But the man who loves God is known by God.

    You could apply this to yourself as well.

    >> May be you should judge yourself with the some judgement you judge others.

    Ditto.

    Do you think Roman Catholics are Christian and the Eucharistic Christ they believe in is the same Jesus Christ of the Bible?

  • Richard Blanton

    I request that you tidy up your typing. It is difficult to read in places. If I were to buy a BIBLE with typos in it, it would be returned. Your credibility is weighed by correct punctuation. The Holy Spirit does not make errors in typing or anything else. I assume you want to be a good representative of Jesus Christ. Be one by typing correctly.
    Above all things Love endures forever.
    Sincerely,
    Richard

  • Discerning The World

    Richard Blanton

    Hahaha, I am sure if the Bible had correct spelling you would return it. And I am not the Holy Spirit, just a human who makes typing errors. Are you so perfect that you have never made an error in your entire life? I sooo wish I could be like you. Pat on the head “ahh such a good representative”.

  • Discerning The World

    Richard Blanton

    I actully must thank you. I noticed that the formatting took words and join them together into what seemed like one big word. But what I really want to thank you for was in actually forcing me per se to go and update this article with new information and adding other Biblical verses – helping people with the correct interpretation of scripture. This of course is what makes us good representatives of Jesus Christ – the correct interpretation of God’s Word.

    I hope you can read the article now and I hope by fixing the errors it will help you to understand.

    PS: Above ALL THINGS is JESUS CHRIST. The ‘love’ you speak off is nothing but New Age ‘Love’

  • Discerning The World

    Ag, I thought I would do the ‘Boerevryheid’ website a favour and drive some traffic their way. Some of them can’t put their finger on it but something is wrong with my article. Might it be possible that they can’t put their finger on the fact that they are registered on a forum that is slightly right wing? I dunno…I can’t put my finger on it.

    People, the gospel of Jesus Christ is FOR ALL, no boundaries on colour, race or language. If ANYONE comes to Jesus in sincerity with genuine repentance of sin they will be saved.

    And I completely understand everyone’s plight in South Africa with regards to crime, murder, corruption and downright unrighteousness; it’s not just a problem for white Afrikaners.

    http://boerevryheid.co.za/forums/showthread.php?p=266305#post266305

    [Edited 2Jun09] PS: For the select few, I know what you’re possibly thinking; “Soutie” lol. Let me just answer this now instead of later cos I see this is causing a bit of a stir out in cyberspace: ‘I am of Huguenot decent with a line of orange blue heritage and a great great…however many times great grandfather who helped found the language of Afrikaans with a few others. I know he would probably be turning in his grave right now if he knew that some of his family ended up speaking english. But I passed Afrikaans on HG in matric – if that counts for anything LOL. Oh AND as per the ‘wanna be Israelites’ my husband and I are supposed to be of the tribe of Reuben…whoohooooo!!! We are sooooooooooo special now.

    Pfff…whatever!

    So now you can stop worrying and sleep tight. I know this type of thing can upset your view on who you think the gospel of Jesus Christ applies to. When you find out that you don’t have to be of the Lost Tribes of Israel to be a child of God, it can cause night sweats. But never fear for Jesus Christ the Son of God saves ALL who believe in Him and repent of their sin, and humble themselves before Him and turn from their wicked ways and come to have the Holy Spirit abide in them.

    So! I am NO DIFFERENT OR BETTER than anyone else. I am however truly born again of God’s Holy Spirit therefore I am in this world but not of it, like very other genuine Christian out there; black, white, blue, green, brown, orange, red and purple with yellow spots.

    PSS, there are MANY born again Zulu decendents of Shaka, etc., and many Xhosas who are decendants of Kings within their tribes, etc, etc, etc. But when they were born again they are now children of God, Jesus Christ King of all Kings.

  • Richard Blanton

    I believe that God is Love and Jesus Christ is God. Jesus is Love. You are right in stating that Jesus Christ is above all things. He, being Love, places Love above all things.
    I have made errors, big surprise? You should strive to be like Jesus Christ, not me.
    I would not return a BIBLE that is correctly edited. I might give one to someone that desires the written word of GOD.
    New Age is a meaningless concept. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever. There is no “New Age”.
    There is new life in Jesus Christ. HALLELUJAH!!!
    Lift up Jesus Christ,Holy is His name!!!

    I do not know much about Angus Buchan. I watched ‘Faith Like Potatoes’. The behind the scenes footage was impressive. His time away from his wife was troubling, the scripture states that spouses should only be apart for short times of fasting and prayer. That has troubled me about Billy Graham also. I know that GOD has been patient with me. I choose to be patient with Billy and Angus.

    As for your statement that the gift of healing has ceased, I find no scripture to confirm that idea. That seems to be an assumption without merit. Teach what you know to be true, and that only.

    Remember, do not to let the sun go down on your anger.
    Above all things Love endures forever. Jesus Christ is Love.
    Sincerely
    Richard L. Blanton

  • Discerning The World

    Richard

    >> As for your statement that the gift of healing has ceased,

    The gift of healing has not ceased in the sense that we go directly to Jesus Christ for healing. I myself am a testimony to being healed. I didn’t have to search dark alleys looking for men with healing hands. I went straight to the source – Jesus Christ. Mo middle men ;)

    I’m not angry, ever! Except when my husband uses all the hot water in the middle of winter.

  • Discerning The World

    Richard Blanton

    >> Consider that there might be christians who have the gift of healing

    Consider that we go to Jesus Christ directly. Consider all those who say they have the ‘gift of healing’ yet it’s all lies and charalatism and hypnosis.

    How do you tell the difference between who is genuine and who is not? By testing what they say to the Word of God or taking their word for it? Like those emails you receive that tell you that you have won the lottery when you know fully well you never bought a ticket.

  • Richard Blanton

    Consider that there might be christians who have the gift of healing and they never go public with it. Like people who win millions of dollars in a lottery jack-pot, these christians realize the chaos of going public with their gifts. Even the ones being healed do not know a certain person has been directed by GOD to attend to their healing.
    The person attending to the healing gives all the glory to the one it belongs to, Jesus Christ.
    Yes, one should ask GOD, directly, in the name of Jesus Christ for their healing. God can and does heal without a person (He has given the gift of healing to) being present.
    Jesus put mud on a blind person’s eyes. Was the mud required for the person to receive their sight? Why did Jesus use the mud? Why does Jesus use us? We are not required. God chooses to do as He wishes and He chooses to use us to bring glory to Himself, publically and personally.
    He can even heal people by sending persons (He has given the gift of healing to) to attend to those needing healing.
    It is not our job to decide what and how GOD does whatever He does.
    It is our job to lift Him up before all nations. Let’s praise Him now!!!
    JESUS YOU ARE THE KING OF KINGS, THE LORD OF LORDS, ALPHA AND OMEGA, and THE SUPREME RULER OF THE UNIVERSE!!!
    HALLELUJAH!!!

    I want to thank you for allowing GOD to be glorified on this website. We are all learning more about Him. It is good to study JESUS.

    Love to you all,
    Richard L. Blanton

  • Jakie de Wit

    “Satan se agente op aarde bly maar slinks…

    Produkte moet mos met ‘n “christelike” lagie versier- suiker opgedis word, anders verkoop dit nie. Daarom word die poef mooi met die sjokolade ingemeng.

    Massa-misleiers en massa-opswepers kom nie met een groot opsigtelike leuen na jou toe nie, want dan gaan jy dit nie koop nie, en nog minder gaan jy dit sluk nie.

    Hulle doen dinge uiters slinks en subtiel. …Die hele pakket moet met mooi versiersuiker bedek wees en in mooi blinkpapier aangebied word.

    Leuens word nie openlik geadverteer nie.

    Leuens en halwe waarhede word eers mooi en subtiel in die totale pakket versteek (ingemessel). Die totale pakket moet mos bemarkbaar wees en moet mos kan verkoop.

    Daarom bestaan die grootste deel van die pakket (die meerderheid) uit waarheid – sodat mense dit met die eerste oop-opslag kan waardeer. Mens noem dit ‘point of sale’.

    Hierdie misleiers sal vir jou 99% waarheid bring, waar dit subtiel met 1% leuen(s) besoedel is, sodat die hele pakket darem steeds heerlik en waar-agtig moet lyk…”

    Read the rest of the article on Angus Buchan on the following link…

    http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.south-africa.afrikaans/browse_frm/thread/2f45c718a15b96ad/0c23b679ad010ea2?tvc=1#0c23b679ad010ea2

    [Edited by DTW]

  • Discerning The World

    What to EXPECT in the Last Days:

  • Master Jack

    Thank you for this article. Refreshing our minds on what the scriptures says. You don’t need to study him to make a decision, just read your Bible
    Why does he wear a hat while preaching? Just wondering where the respect is for God.

  • Discerning The World

    Master Jack
    Thanks, and you are so right.

    We don’t need to study men when we have the Bible; the most amazing, incredible, unbelievable, blessed, beautiful, wonderful, hope filled, infallible, and final Word of God. It’s the ONLY book that can save us, Jesus Christ is the Word and He is the ONLY ONE who can save us. NOTHING ELSE, no man, no man made books, no man made fables, no man made anything.

    But we are called as born again Christians to speak the truth always and warn, like a lighthouse helping to prevent those ships from smashing into rocks. The Word of God steers those who love the truth from deception, keeps them safe.

    Standing up for Jesus is the most difficult thing in the world. But I will never stop, no one will stop me from loving Jesus Christ and warning those who are being led astray – if just one person listens, listens to the Holy Spirit warning them it will be worth everything I have gone through and will continue to go through until the end.

    We are in the most perilous times right now; we are in the very last days. The lies and deception have increased to such an extent that every day is 1000 times worse than the day before. It’s out of control; ships are smashing into the rocks by the hundreds taking all their passengers and crew with them. But I pray that at least one person jumps overboard because they saw and heard the warnings ashore. He then himself tried to warn everyone else, but they were asleep and refused to get out of their comfortable, warm beds.

    But we rejoice because Jesus is coming soon. He told us to watch and pray. To pay attention all the time, so that we are never caught spiritually unaware/asleep.

  • Leon

    I was at the MMC and Angus preached Jesus and the Cross. The comments of Angus, that you are writing about is out of context. I saw with my own eyes friends and family members that are know born again christians, not because of Angus only the Holy Spirit convict, but someone must be obedient an he is. Angus is not a theologian, but he is someone God uses. I agree on most of the other preacher on you blog, that they are spiritually blind and most of them are deceivers. They try to deceive the bride of Christ with there feel good gospel. I also agree with you that 90% of South Africans that confess that they are true christians are blinded by the spirit of anti-christ. Preachers does not preach sin and hell anymore, because they will lose members and income. I assure you Angus main focus is Christ and the Cross and true repantance.

  • Waitsel Smith

    God’s Word says you will know them by their fruits. You don’t need to do exhaustive research on people – their fruits speak for them. Angus’ fruits speak for him. What about you, whoever you are that doesn’t even put his name on his articles? What is the fruit in your life, and what is it saying about you? I’ll put my money on Angus.

    It’s easy to criticize and condemn. It’s easy to sit at home typing away on your computer while Angus is out, giving himself to people for the Kingdom. If you would get out and do something for the Kingdom, I’ll bet you would start to see God in Angus and his work. But right now, all you see is yourself (your god) and how you are not in the work of Angus, and you therefore interpret that as God not being in his work. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    I would say you are a part of the cult of self – a cult that most Christians today are more or less a part of. Self has blinded your eyes. Self – or lack of self – is all you see. Try doing something for God and others, and you will stop seeing self and start seeing God. I’m serious. The only reason you researched Angus the way you did was to exalt yourself – the same reason the Pharisees researched, and then rejected, Christ. They were in love with themselves, just as you are.

    But don’t feel badly – most Christians are in the same boat. But all it takes to change is to get out of the boat. Get out of yourself and you will see God – in Angus, and in a lot of places you never saw Him before.

    Waitsel Smith

  • Discerning The World

    Waitsel Smith

    >> I’ll put my money on Angus.

    You can put all your money on angus…it’s your money, it’s your soul too

    The rest I wont comment on as I’ve heard it all before….except I must say yours is a bit worse.

  • Philip

    Wow, how interesting to read all these comments coming from “Christians” People that fight the same fight but is so different. Is it not great to see how God uses different people. I must agree with Discerning The World with this article but before stoning me as it seems a few of you could, I do believe that people do get saved through what Angus is preaching as God can use any for His good that is called the providence of God. At least we dont need to type 100% to know what we say is through teh Holy Spirit as the one brother so put it. So also we dont need signs to show that we preach is from God as mentioned by Angus. I do believe we have the Word of God and it is complete and all we need or else Christ would not have told us that faith is not in seeing but in believing without seeing. I would like to close, I wonder if hardships and struggles what we all as Christians will and do endure are going to be preached and not the wealth and health as it is not about us but about Him and salvation as we dont deserve anything anyway except for death, how many people would start to “accept Christ as their saviour” another terminology I dont like to use. I truly enjoyed your article Discerning The World, is it possible to find some of your other writings as well. Nothing wrong in taking everything being said to the Word to measure it up so why get upset if someone weigh things according to the Word as Scriptures warn us to do this as there will be many false preachers. To the person that told the writer of the article to go out, please stop judging as you dont even know who this person is yet alone what he does…. God bless to all Christians and may He come soon.

  • Philip

    Before I forget, no need to get angry anymore Discerning The World ha ha ha, move to the Philippines, here it is so hot, you dont need hot water… Can I just add, I am spreading the gospel before someone goes there. :)

  • Lorraine

    Who wrote this article? I can’t find an authors name anywhere. The only hint is a comment “I’m not angry, ever! Except when my husband uses all the hot water in the middle of winter.” Is it written by a woman?

    Also in the body of the article itself the author says:

    ” ‘”A strange comment by Angus on his website:

    “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside the weight and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and run the race that is set before us” [3] [Emphasis added]

    So you just lay it aside? Sweep it under the carpet? Make like it does not exist? So much for teaching genuine repentance of sin.”

    Angus was quoting Heb 12:1. Vs 2 says, “…fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

    That is how we lay aside the sin that so easily entangles us— we fix our eyes on Jesus.
    By all reports Angus seems to have done just that.

  • Chad

    It sounds as though you believe, Deborah, that the Holy Spirit ceased to work in the world after the canon was closed. How very sad.
    The gift of healing is one of the spiritual gifts that God gives to whom God will. You quench the Spirit by mocking it or by declaring it obsolete.

    Is God still actively engaged in God’s church or not? Does the Holy Spirit still dispense gifts for the purpose of building the church? If your answer is “no” than please prove this through the scriptures you claim to be the sole source of truth rather than through your own limited experience.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    Sigh….

  • Philip

    Chad

    Sigh…,

  • Discerning The World

    Yeah…I know Philip! Let’s sigh together one more time. After that we rejoyce for Jesus Christ told us in His Word that when these things, when the wickedness of the world gets out of control, when everyone starts to follow another gospel, another Christ, born again Christians are to be happy because He is coming back really SOON!! These are the signs of the times, watch and pray!!

  • Discerning The World

    Lorraine

    You said: That is how we lay aside the sin that so easily entangles us— we fix our eyes on Jesus. By all reports Angus seems to have done just that.

    Nope, we repent of our sin through Jesus Christ, we don’t just fix our eyes on Him. So by all reports, you are right, Angus just fixes his eyes on Jesus. As Roman Catholics and Protestants all reconnect and recommit to Christ.

    Just thought I would ask here too. Are you Nic’s wife? Nic who is New Age Emergent? If not, no worries, just checking.

  • Discerning The World

    Philip

    Yeah there are about 76 orange links to articles if you look down the right hand side of the blog, happy reading :)

  • Hennie van Zyl

    Keep in mind that God will use a donkey. 2 Tim.2:13 states that God will even use preachers that are misinformed or deceived. He honors His Word. People coming to repentance is no guarantee of a preachers status in Truth, but simply God honouring His Word.

    I have been reading this site for a long time and it is a sad fact that we now need the gift of discernment now more that ever. No one is critical of preachers, BUT all truth must be tested on the Bible. I salute Deborah for standing firm!

  • Discerning The World

    Thank you Hennie!

  • Discerning The World

    Hi Cecil

    I already have Shaun Willcock’s link to to his ministrty ‘biblebasedministries’ in my article. It’s about 3/4 way down the article

  • For further thought can I direct readers to the article on this link [link removed] The article is written by Shaun Willcock who runs an excellent Apologetics Ministry called Bible Based Ministries in South Africa and who knew Mr Angus personally. I hope this is helpful.
    For Christ and His glory

    Cecil Andrews
    ‘Take Heed’ Ministries

  • My sincere apologies for missing that in my first ‘scan’ read of your article. By way of information/warning I actually directed people via our web site to Shaun’s article when Mr Buchan was in Ireland.
    In Christ

    Cecil Andrews
    ‘Take Heed’ Ministries
    Northern Ireland

  • Discerning The World

    Nooooooooo problem.

  • Zanele

    Psalm 46:10 “Be still and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations; I will be exalted in the earth!”

  • Discerning The World

    Hans

    >> However, after reading this comment (and your apparent disparaging attitude towards Afrikaners)I wonder if your true motivation was not to “get a stab in” at Afrikaners (maybe because the majority of people attending these conferences are Afrikaners)

    I am sorry but where did I take a stab at Afrikaners? You speak about me taking stuff out of context.

    The only reason I wrote that comment was because I was being criticized by Afrikaners (yes you know white Afrikaners criticizing me, a white English speaking Afrikaner) on the Afrikaans, boere, volk, vryheid type forums for writing about Angus.

    They criticized me because what I wrote was not biblical and that because I was English speaking this was now the real problem, and not the fact that Angus preaches false doctrine.
    Please re-read my comment and my article again and see that NO WHERE in my article did I mention anything about race or language or colour.

    This is not a political, colour, or anything else article. This is about what Angus preaches and his ties with the New Apostolic Reformation and the Emergent movement – these movements are not the truth because what he (Angus) and others within these movements preaches contradicts the Word of God in more ways that just one. So it’s not little errors we are speaking about here but a huge error of gross proportions.

    An apology is in order, thanking you in advance.

  • Hans

    When I read the article it appeared to be written out of genuine concern. You raised some points which might be true. Some of it does however appear to be taken out of context. I have never attended one of his conferences. I am still in the dark as to whether he truly does Gods work. I am constantly searching for the truth.

    However, after reading this comment (and your apparent disparaging attitude towards Afrikaners)I wonder if your true motivation was not to “get a stab in” at Afrikaners (maybe because the majority of people attending these conferences are Afrikaners)

    Ps. I believe that anyone can be saved regardless of race or colour, just like you do, so don’t confuse me with one of those nuts believing in the Israel Waarheid or similiar teachings.
    Just one last remark, despite the fact that crime and corruption etc affects all in SA, the Afrikaners do have reason to feel victimised/singled out. See for example the needless voilence and torture that accompanies farm murders, Afrikaans schools being forced by government to accept English speaking students, eventually leading to Afrikaans being completely phased out (don’t use the government’s argument that Afrikaans cannot get “special treatment”/supported at the costs of the other official languages – if the government had lifted one finger to promote other language schools their argument may have validity – fact is they don’t, therefor sustaining Afrikaans schools only occurs at the expense of English!) and also Afrikaans city/town/street names are being singled out for replacement.

  • Discerning The World

    Hans

    If you can’t see that I follow the Word of God to a T then I cant help you further. Only the Holy Spirit can guide you to what is truth and what’s not the truth. I can’t convice you. I am sure many others can. Go and read this article: Love Casts Out All Hell –

    As for the link to Tom Gouws. If you read the TB Joshua article it says: “Prof Tom Gouws … wrote an article in “Beeld”, an Afrikaans newspaper in Johannesburg, in which he in fact EXPOSED Joshua”

    You said: “However, after reading this comment (and your apparent disparaging attitude towards Afrikaners)I wonder if your true motivation was not to “get a stab in” at Afrikaners (maybe because the majority of people attending these conferences are Afrikaners)”

    Hans, you know exactly what you mean by this statment. You are alluding to the fact that because most afrikaners attend Angus conferencs then I must have a bad attitude towards Afrikaaners. Which is completely untrue.

    Lets stick to stripture here why don’t we, tell me what’s wrong in my article and we can discuss that, while you are at it please supply scripture for your arguments regarding my article on what Angus preaches.

  • Discerning The World

    While you’re at it you might what to check this one out: 12 Nuwe Strominge in die Teologie / New Streams in Theology – DVD

    In fact there are at the moment 82 articles (actually 84) I just have not put them in the list yet. You don’t need a statement of faith to see the truth – you have the Bible don’t you? You read it? You study it? You have the Holy Spirit IN your life don’t you?

    Statements of faith mean nothing, every ministry seems to have one and never abides by it. So what’s the point. People will still follow false teaching even if it jumped out and bit them on the nose.

  • Discerning The World

    Hans

    >> I do not know the Scriptures nearly as well as I am sure you do.

    Well that clears thing up, should I dare ask why not? God does say to you in His Word:

    2 Timothy 2:15 NASB

    15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

    or

    2 Timothy 2:15 NIV

    15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

    or

    2 Timothy 2:15 NLT

    15 Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth

    or

    2 Thimotheus 2:15 Afrikaans

    2:15 Lê jou daarop toe om jou beproef voor God te stel as ‘n werker wat hom nie hoef te skaam nie, wat die woord van die waarheid reg sny.

  • Hans

    “I am sorry but where did I take a stab at Afrikaners?”

    I’m not saying you did. I’m saying I wondered if your motivation for writing the article was to take a stab at them. It does not appear so from the article. It was your comment that made me wonder – read your comment again and tell that an Afrikaner would not find it the least bit disparaging.

    “NO WHERE in my article did I mention anything about race or language or colour.

    This is not a political, colour, or anything else article”

    Like I said, not he article, but the comment.

    If I may use the words of a famous ex – rugby player, “at the end of the day” our above differences are not really important.

    I would like to know what your beliefs are, eg do you believe in a “contextual” or “literal” interpretation of the Bible, where do you stand on issues like homosexuality, the resurrection of Christ etc.
    I have tried to find a link explaining what the site is about and what you stand for but could not find any (keep in mind I’m just an Afrikaner pleb (and Afrikaans speaking on top of that), so I apologise in advance for my ignorance if I missed the link).

    I noted a link on your site to Tom Gouws, but it took me to an article of TB Joshua, am I following the wrong link?

  • Discerning The World

    Also

    >> Not quite. What I alluded to was that you “have a bad attitude” towards Buchan as a result of your dislike for Afrikaners.

    And it never crossed your mind while reading my comment that Afrikaners think I have a bad attitude because I am writing about Angus who is love so by South Africans.

    It’s usually like that, when the minority speaks out then they are the racist onces. Sound familar? lol

    I just can’t win…really… If you saw the comments I got last when when I originally posted this article when angus first sprung onto the scene you ‘might’ have got a shock. I had nearly 100 comments in a few days telling me how evil I was. Now after the hype has died down, the comments trickle in. More people out there now realise Angus is dodgy and something is not right. Unfortunately that percentage is still tiny…only a few people are listening to the Holy Spirit’s warnings, others went and dived even deeper into the deception.

  • Hans

    “If you can’t see that I follow the Word of God to a T then I cant help you further”

    All I can see is that you endeavour to expose false prophets/ministries/faiths with reference to the Scriptures, which is very praise-worthy. I just thought you had a link where your beliefs are spelt out, I am not saying you have to, like I said exposing false doctrines is praise-worthy in itself.

    “Only the Holy Spirit can guide you to what is truth and what’s not the truth.”

    Quite correct. (And thanks for the link, I will read it)

    “As for the link to Tom Gouws. If you read the TB Joshua article it says: “Prof Tom Gouws … wrote an article in “Beeld”, an Afrikaans newspaper in Johannesburg, in which he in fact EXPOSED Joshua”

    Thanks, I found it.

    “Hans, you know exactly what you mean by this statment. You are alluding to the fact that because most afrikaners attend Angus conferencs then I must have a bad attitude towards Afrikaaners.”

    Not quite. What I alluded to was that you “have a bad attitude” towards Buchan as a result of your dislike for Afrikaners. Like I said, I got the impression that you dislike Afrikaners from your comment, not from your article.

    “Lets stick to stripture here why don’t we, tell me what’s wrong in my article and we can discuss that, while you are at it please supply scripture for your arguments regarding my article on what Angus preaches.”

    I would not dare. I do not know the Scriptures nearly as well as I am sure you do.

  • It’s funny how someone is asked for their credentials and questioned when they dare mention true facts about a certain preacher…

    Yet that same person would not dare question what that preacher says, regardless of the credentials he might have…

    interesting…

    Greetings

    J O

  • Has the Word of God started to offend “Christians”?

    Would “Christians” rather have their ears tickled?

    If I didn’t know any better I would say that the above would be impossible…

    If you call yourself a “Christian” and the above is true of you, then I would say you might be in danger of falling away…

    If you consider yourself a Christian and the Word of God is pleasing to your ear, I pray that you will endure!

    Greetings

    J O

  • …oh and another thing. We are called to discern and mark those who cause division and teach what is contrary to that of the Bible…

    …and we need to seperate from them!

    God hates the mixture…

    Greetings

    J O

  • Hans

    “If you saw the comments I got last when when I originally posted this article …..’

    But I did not see the comments. Perhaps if I did I would have have seen your comment in a different light. But I guess thats what I get for judging your comment without knowing the CONTEXT within which it was said. Shame on me.

  • Deborah,

    You wrote “This is about what Angus preaches and his ties with the New Apostolic Reformation and the Emergent movement…”

    I have been watching (and sometimes participating) in the Emergent conversation but this is the first time I hear of any ties that Angus have with it. Can you please elaborate on how you came to this knowledge?

    Grace and peace to you
    Eugene

  • Discerning The World

    Go research NIRSA.

  • Amanda

    I have been watching (and sometimes participating) in the Emergent conversation

    So you are not emergent yourself. Why not? Where do you draw the line dividing you from the emergents?

  • Discerning The World

    Read what you want to read Eugene, whatever appeals to your beliefs – this is the emergent way of course, pick from here and there and whatever floats your boat is what gets the thumbs up.

    National Initiative for the Reformation of South Africa (NIRSA)

    Graham Power & Angus Buchan -Transformation Africa

    I wonder if you would AGREE and applaud someone who impersonates someone else and writes disgusting things to others using their name, or would you DISAGREE and rebuke these people who do things like this?

  • Discerning The World

    Inclusion? Don’t you mean Impersonate?

    Do you agree and applaud those who took someone’s idenity and impersonated them, writing terrible things on the internet to others using their name? Or would you have the guts to stand up and disagree and rebuke these people for what they are doing?

    You’ve got a bigger chance of falling pregnant Eugene than me ever having any form of drink with you and that includes water.

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    I would love to believe what have to say, but…unfortunately I can’t.

    So, Do you you AGREE and applaud someone who impersonates someone else and writes disgusting things to others using their name, or do you DISAGREE and rebuke these people who do things like this?

  • I agree that Angus preaches Christ, the Cross and Repentance (if it is indeed true repentance, remains to be seen) – I wouldn’t go as far as saying that it is his main focus…

    It seems like he wants to help make the world (south africa included) a better place…

    He believes in end time revival, yet the revival he preaches to the massas is not what the Bible says will be the sign of people returning to God.

    The Bible is very clear that in the last days (and boy do we find ourselves in the last days) many will fall away from the faith…

    If they (any so-called born again Chrisitan) were saved or if they were never saved to begin with, remains to be seen. Fact is – I have to question gatherings of these magnitudes simply because the massas rejected the prophets, the disciples and Christ Himself…

    Ponder on these words;

    Vox populi, vox dei
    “Vox populi, vox dei…” is usually mistakenly believed to mean, “The voice of the people is the voice of God…”, thus implying that popular opinion is always right.

    In fact the full quotation is, “Nec audienti sunt qui solet docere, ‘Vox populi, vox dei’; cum tumultuositas vulgi semper insanitas proxima est.”

    The literal translation is: “Do not listen to those who are accustomed to teach [claim], ‘The voice of the people is the voice of God’, because the tumult of the masses is always close to insanity.” (Cohen, J. M. & Cohen, M. J. 1960. Penguin Dictionary of Quotations.)

    Job 12:11 “Does not the ear test words, As the palate tastes its food?

    Greetings

    J O

  • Amanda,

    I think putting people into categories can be helpful to address certain trends but is dangerous when dealing with individuals.

    The emergent/emerging conversation in South Africa (and over the world, but lets stick to SA) is not a church where there is one faith statement or one doctrine that can pin it down. Why? Because it is a conversation with Christians from different churches and backgrounds conversing about various subjects like theology, orthodoxy, orthopraxy, etc.

    There are certain values that you can apply to the whole conversation like inclusion. Inclusion in the sense that anyone can join the conversation. The point of the conversation is not to tell each other how wrong they are and how right we are, but to listen, understand and learn. To have these conversations on the internet is great but because so much of communication is lost in this virtual world it is better to meet face to face at cohorts, seminars, learning communities and confereces. This is why you and Deborah have been invited for coffee so many times – the value of inclusion and desire to learn from others.

    So that loooong explanation just to say… To pin me (or anyone) as an emergent (in the sense that you use emergent) would be assigning things and beliefs to me that is not necessarily true of me. I take part in a conversation called the Emergent Conversation. To draw a line dividing me from others would bring just that – separation from people I love and respect. I have said this before: I do not agree with everything others in this conversation say and believe but that does not mean I do not love and respect them as people or that I cannot learn anything from them. So if taking part in this conversation makes me emergent then yes I am an emergent but if some doctrine, belief or theology makes me emergent then no am not an emergent.

    I hope this helps.

    Grace and peace to you
    Eugene

    P.S. Wanna go for coffee? :) :D

  • Deborah, I’m still researching NIRSA and I’ll get back to you on this.

    Just to clarify – is this what you are refering to?
    [Edited url]

    May you be filled with faith, hope and love today (1 Cor 13:13)

  • Discerning The World

    Repeat, answer to your question, here is more info for you:

    National Initiative for the Reformation of South Africa (NIRSA)

    Graham Power & Angus Buchan -Transformation Africa

    Repeat, now answer my question:

    Do you you AGREE and applaud someone who impersonates someone else and writes disgusting things to others using their name, or do you DISAGREE and rebuke these people who do things like this?

    Identity of “Discerning The World” Stolen

  • Deborah,

    You said in a comment above “Go research NIRSA.” I am doing that… Why the “Read what you want to read Eugene, whatever appeals your your beliefs.”?

  • Deborah,
    You asked me to research NIRSA. Im doing that. Do you have something else on your mind relating to my question: “Can you please elaborate on how you came to this knowledge?”?

  • You’ve got a bigger chance of falling pregnant Eugene than me ever having any form of drink with you and that includes water.

    Understood. But I am a naive optimist :) (Not refering to me being pregnant, lol.)

  • Amanda

    Eugene
    You might imagine you are only chatting to some charming people, but emergent is a movement and it has moved a lot. See what is accepted as Christian teaching: Rob Bell, Shane Hipps, Peter Rollins teaching Arts and Crafts? No, Never, Can’t be!

    You said:

    To draw a line dividing me from others would bring just that – separation from people I love and respect.

    Jesus Christ said:

    So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
    (Mat 10:32-39)

  • Discerning The World

    Of course you wouldn’t…

    REPEAT: Do you you AGREE and applaud someone who impersonates someone else and writes disgusting things to others using their name or do you DISAGREE and rebuke these people who do things like this?

    This is a simple question Eugene. This has nothing to do with being Christian or not. This is about values, principles, morals – you know those thing that you are trying so hard to follow but not doing a good job at.

    But you don’t have to answer Eugene, your dodging of this question speaks volumes. You and your little friends have been exposed, in more ways than just one. You are no longer welcome here.

    Psalm 50:17-19
    17 You hate my instruction and cast my words behind you.
    18 When you see a thief, you join with him; you throw in your lot with adulterers.
    19 You use your mouth for evil and harness your tongue to deceit.

    Jeremiah 2:26-27
    26 “As a thief is disgraced when he is caught, so the house of Israel is disgraced— they, their kings and their officials, their priests and their prophets
    27 They say to wood, ‘You are my father,’ and to stone, ‘You gave me birth.’ They have turned their backs to me and not their faces; yet when they are in trouble, they say, ‘Come and save us!’

    John 10:9-11
    9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.
    10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
    11″I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

  • Deborah,

    I can find no “link” between Angus and the Emergent Conversation in the things I have read so far published by NIRSA members themselves. There is no mention of either. I just wanted to verify a link that you made between Angus and the Emergent but you made my question into much more. It seems that you have this conspiracy theory about this “link” culminating in a One World Religion and what is disturbing about it is this “if you don’t agree with me you are not a truly born again Christian”. I am not going to play your AGREE/DISAGREE game.

    Sorry for the inconvenience of that question. You can ignore it now…

    Grace and peace to you
    Eugene

  • Glenda

    Please check out this statement of fatih by brother Angus Buchan:

    He is a man of God, and I had no trouble finding this information on the internet.

    Judge not that you be not judged; with whatsoever judgement you judge you shall be judge likewise…

    Accuse not the brethren…

  • Discerning The World

    Glenda

    Yes, statements of faith are all over the place, even seventh day adventists churches and anglican churches have statements of faith. Your point is? The point is you can make a list of 20 thing you want your congregation to believe and they will? That’s right…believe it.

  • cecilia

    Ek is eg Afrikaans, so Afrikaans as kan kom. My groot groot (ens) oues was Boeregeneraals. Tussen die spulletjie was ‘n “hensopper” (deserter) ook! ouch! Hans, DTW’s D het niks teen Afrikaners nie! ook nie teen Afrikaans-sprekendes nie, ek weet, want ons kommunikeer gereeld en het al een keer gekuier (afstand probleem). Ek myself moet erken dat ek self baie keer die Engelssprekendes se manier van iets sê of skryf verkeerd verstaan het, omdat die Engelse taal ‘n ander manier van uitdrukking het. In DTW se “comment” kan ek niks fout sien nie en ek verstaan nie waarom jy aanhou verwys daarna nie? Haal dan woorde aan sodat mens kan sien wat jy bedoel asb? vrede, cecilia

  • cecilia

    D, I just had 2 go +c why u edited this comment; and whaau girlfriend, all I can say is – those who throw words at u must go read THESE discussions! thanks 4 all ur research, much appreciated! cecilia

  • cecilia

    I’ve seen (and still am on a regular basis) a lot of people “giving their lives to the Lord”, “repent” etc. whilst in a (big) gathering. Follow-up reveal that in a big percentage of these lives, it lasts only from about 2 weeks to 2 months, then the “emotion” and the “structure to hold unto” is gone and so the “decisions” made. same goes for healings in (big) gatherings. people are prayed 4, they “receive healing”, but some time later they are standing in line for prayer again, again with the same problem. the danger of such big gatherings is: follow-up. teaching. disciplining.
    Example: my friend’s husband went 2 the ’08 gathering. Had such an upliftment and experience. Came back with sparkling eyes, just telling everyone who wants 2 listen of what it was and what-all happened there! Two weeks after that he got into an adulterous relationship and wanted to divorce his wife. She’s fighting daily 4 their marriage, carrying the guilt of “it’s my fault”.
    again, many writers on this blog is correct when they ask where are the fruit? cecilia

  • cecilia

    Lorraine: “Who wrote this article? I can’t find an authors name anywhere. The only hint is a comment “I’m not angry, ever! Except when my husband uses all the hot water in the middle of winter.” Is it written by a woman?”
    duuuuu! now I’ve seen it all! cecilia

  • It is so sad when Christians find it worth their while to find fault with each other instead of working with our Lord in his kingdom to make disciples of all nations as He ordered us to do.

  • Michael Anthony

    Rita,

    Could you be so kind as to articulate what exactly it is you have a problem with.

    Ironically you are guilty of finding fault – with Christians finding fault with each other – as well. Sad hey?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rita

    Christians don’t fight with one another because we are born again and children of God. On the other end of the scale sit those who call themselves christian but are not. So it’s not about Christians fighting Christians. It’s about genuine Christians standing up/defending for the Gospel of Jesus Christ against those false christians who’s sole purpose is to destroy it.

    Get it? Got it? Great.

  • Hi Guys,

    It’ not strictly true that Christians don’t, nor shouldn’t, disagree, even vehemently, with each other regarding Scripture, Theology or doctrine.

    One example is Peter and Paul in Galatians 2:11 – 14, “11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he {began} to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how {is it that} you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

    There are plenty more examples.

    In Christ,

    Mark

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    Ah but of course yes, Christians can disagree on issues. BUT the issues that genuine Christians would disagree on or argue about will be minor issues regarding scripture. When an entire doctrine is incorrect and you have 2 people arguing; one speaks the truth the other lies then this is another matter all together.

    In this instance, Rita, could not be bothered if Angus Buchan preaches Dominionist teaching which is a false doctrine that leads people astray. Everyone should just get along, unite, even though one preaches their false gospel using the name of Jesus and the other preaches the genuine gospel of Jesus. For the ‘unity in diversity’ group just cos the name of Jesus was used in both cases then hey presto we are all doing the same work for the same God.

    Rita can’t tell the difference between what is true or not so she thinks that we are just fighting among ourselves as.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John B

    You contradict yourself.

    You say your children love Jesus yet want to leave church.
    They hate hypocrisy yet have a father who insults others calls them names in the name of ‘Jesus’ when they preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and warn of false teachers who lead children astray.
    You say that these supposed men of God like Angus save thousands yet your children are confused and can’t tell the truth from what is false.
    You speak of prosperity yet your household is spiritually poor.

    I think you need to just give your kids the bible John and tell them they can find Jesus Christ on every page and leave the world to the wicked.

    PS: if you have not noticed Angus was proved false ages ago, you are behind the times. Just like TBN was proved false, God TV (Latter Rain Manifest Sons of God teaching) and End Times peace and prosperity instead of God’s plan of judgement on the world.

    The world is worse, have you not noticed?
    The world is NOT going to get better so start praying.
    The church is spiritual not a physical building.
    When one is born again you are made a new creature in Jesus Christ and become a child of God, you are no longer part of the world, even though we live in it.
    Every born again Christian belongs to the body of Christ.
    It’s NOT a denomination. How ever there are many many false denominations who call themselves Christian.
    The church is NOT Israel unless you think you are a Jew?
    You are a gentile saved by GRACE.
    Hold long is a generation? Please do check your timing on this one, it does involve you being in the right place at the right time)
    Do you follow Joel 2 to the letter but leave out the end of the prophecy because it suits you?
    Are you in Israel right now? If not get there quickly, Joel 2 ends where your children will dream dreams and prophecy just before the GREAT Day of the Lord where the sky literally falls in on itself.

    Please quote more scripture to support your views.

    I must say your insults are the worst so far, well done on that one, you must be so proud.

    Will your children be reading this? Your comment I mean.

    If not at least print the below articles out and let them decided who is telling the truth. The Word of God or Angus. Would be terrible to think that you led your kids astray by hiding the truth from them.

    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/12/01/your-sons-and-your-daughters-will-prophesy-but-not-yet/

  • John B

    People like you look for blood, not truth. Self appointed “purity of the word and purity of other’s motives” sheriffs like you are the reason my kids want to leave the church. They love Jesus, they hate the hypocrisy of you who claim to “hear from the Holy Spirit” but do nothing but tear good people down. I think what you hear is your own doubt, your own pride, your own shovel digging a grave for a Christianity that completely misses the word GRACE. Sounds more like the devil than the Holy Spirit to me. You would have convicted Paul, King David, Solomon, Peter, James, John, and everyone else after them based on their human foibles. God calls them his friends and David a man after his own heart. You chose only the scriptures that seem to support your view, but ignore the myriad of ones that contradict it. The scripture is full of a holy tension between two ideas – God wants all good things for us and at the same time promises difficulties. They are not mutually exclusive thoughts. Pull your head out of your rear end and stop worrying about other people teaching Christ. You sound like the whiny little kids as Jesus described – (Matthew 11:16 -19) 16″To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
    17″ ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge
    and you did not mourn.’ 18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ‘ But wisdom is proved right by her actions.”

    Today you would say like a spoiled child stompping their feet…”Oh he does not preach the way I like or say things exactly the way I want them said. He’s a bad man. Bu the thousands being saved will prove him right and not you. Your article is infamous because of how stupid it is.

  • Michael Anthony

    Dear John B

    – When you write a scathing rebuke to anybody, try and use things like wit and sarcasm (Paul was a master at this), it helps. Otherwise it sounds like you had some really bad pepperoni pizza and you have just kicked the dog…and no one will actually take you seriously except prescribe you a valium.

    – If you are a brother in Christ try and make a case for your views, you will find that the owner of this site is actually very open to intellectual and well reasoned arguments. Sending down the fires of hell? Nah, bad strategy.

    – You say the writer of the article misses GRACE, well your flaming masterpiece is devoid of it.

    – I did not know there was a ‘myriad’ of scriptures, I am only aware of 66 books written by 40 authors. I am outlining your unbridled exaggerations which seem to have no brakes…

    – You have ripped Matthew 11 completely out of context, in fact you mangled it so bad I there is not anything we can salvage from the verse. You also have to realise that the owner of the website is absolutely 100% Puritan – By GRACE alone, Through FAITH alone through Jesus Christ’s WORK alone. Is that a demon? Dude, why are you insinuating the work of God of rightly dividing the word of truth to be the work of demons?

    – Thousands saved? Are you aware that the modern version of ‘accepting Jesus into your heart’ is sending thousands to hell? Biblical salvation is REPENTANCE and putting FAITH in Jesus Christ’s work alone. Repentance means a complete turnaround. Thousands in a stadium does not equal = thousands saved. That is a logical fallacy.

    But I am prepared to hear why you think that Angus is a true man of God, I personally have heard very good things of the man and have quite a respect for the man. The problem is that I also see a lot of WOF and Dominionism creeping in here so I am prepared to listen to the whole story.

    [ edited ]

    – Lastly, please remember that you judge the fruit, NOT THE MOTIVE. You have it backwards.

  • Donene

    Hi there,

    Could you please tell me if there is anybody preaching in the world that meets your exacting standards?
    Greetings

  • Elmarie A

    Donene

    Nobody sets the standards but GOD through his Word.Once you get to know the Word of God this becomes clear as daylight. We are to study the word of God as true Christians.

    We are heeded to urgent warnings about False prophets in the Word of God. Do you know that?
    Matthew 7:15 (New King James Version)
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

    2 Peter 2:1 (New King James Version)
    1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
    You don’t seem to know the term Discernment?

  • cecilia

    >>> John B – “Your article is infamous ……”
    actually, JB, it doesn’t seem to be “stupid” or “infamous” if one find it on other discernment sites that are available, e.g.:
    https://www.sermonaudio.com/new_details3.asp?ID=17303
    I think I’m actually going to copy this here, and the reader(s) can go and read the letter themselves at the applicable website.
    “Open Letter to Angus Buchan, FRIDAY, AUGUST 29, 2008, Posted by: Grace Unlimited
    Very close to my heart is the honour of Christ in a world where there is no discernment. In this Open Letter to Angus Buchan, I have made an appeal to a very prominent stadium preacher in South Africa to preach a bigger, God-honouring Gospel. It is my urgent prayer that the Lord will use this letter to win him over to the beauty of the Gospel of the Bible, which is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes.
    Tens of thousands pack into stadiums around the country. They hear a powerful speaker speaking about God and what He can do for them. They return home fired up to reform their lives and to live for Christ. Yet they have never been confronted with the glorious gospel of the blessed God. They are dead in sin but are trying to act as if they are alive. I grieve over this sad waste of opportunity and the giving of false hope. In the end, those who leave these events, fired up with moralistic zeal, must eventually slump into weariness and conclude that Christ may not actually be able to save them at all.
    This letter is not an attack, it is a gracious appeal. It is written from a heart that desires to see Angus Buchan, and many world evangelists like him, use the opportunities God has given them, to preach a magnificent Gospel that honours the magnificent God.
    Read my Open Letter to Angus Buchan on SermonAudio
    Read or download my Open Letter to Angus Buchan at my website: graceunlimited “

    also Have a look at:

    cecilia

  • Elmarie A

    Cecilia

    Im so glad you added the open letter to Angus Buchan.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Donene

    Yes

  • Gert van Kraayenburg

    This is so real and true that so many will disagree on and about the Holy Word of God Father Creator and they will never come to the knowledge of God and Jesus Christ. For this reason I will not qoute any scriptures but may the grace and love of God Father (Jahwe) and Jesus Christ His only begotten Son (Jehoshua) save all to repent from sin, accept that Jesus Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God and receive Him as your personel Saviour, Redeemer and start living a Holy Life where no one will see God because God says in His Word that :Be ye holy; for I am holy.
    The tribulation is close and there will be no prosperity and Gods Grace and Love will never ever safe anybody, unless we repent from sin and get covered under His Love and Grace and yes, then we shall be hated of all men for my (Jesus Christ)name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    Forget the miltitudes now covered under the umbrella of New Wine, New Life, because they are renewed and their preachers also preach love and light with a renewed gospel of prosperity and wealth so to keep people in control for mammons sake. Yes it is true and our Heavenly Father know its true, because their father did renew himself as the father of love and light and his name is SATAN and this will be the way he and his workers of love and light will deceive the whole world to accept the mark of the beast and bow their knees before Satan as the god of this new world, under the rule and control of the New World Order.

    Many thanks Deborah that you is so obedient unto God Father Creator Jahwe and Jesus Christ our beloved Saviour and Redeemer.
    Let we stand strong in His service to blow the trumpet and spread the WORD of TRUTH according to His strict Word (Bible)if just one extra soul can or may be saved. What a joy in heaven!!!!!!!
    The truth will set us free and Jesus Christ is the truth.

  • Abigail

    Whoa! I’m not sure what to think of this. I’m hesitant to believe this author. She seems to have set out to find any little nit-picky thing she could against Angus Buchan and she obviously doesn’t know the book of Hebrews (which Mr. Buchan was quoting) very well…

    “A strange comment by Angus on his website:

    “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside the weight and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and run the race that is set before us” [3] [Emphasis added]… See more… See more

    So you just lay it aside? Sweep it under the carpet? Make like it does not exist? So much for teaching genuine repentance of sin.”

    I can’t say whether this woman is right or not as I know very little of Mr. Buchan, (and even less of Deborah) but that one comment alone really makes me wonder if I should trust this author…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Abigail

    You said… “I know very little of Mr. Buchan”

    Well go find out. You don’t even live in South Africa. And you dismiss the entire article on that one comment. If you scoll up and read the other comments you will see that I have explained this already. But if you want to ignore this artile, you are more than welcome.

  • Fanie van Staden

    I was also fooled by Angus- I also attended the MMC ’09 where he fell gravely ill and was part of the 300 000 who prayed for him at the conference. The next day he stated that he had died and was resurrected- my hair stood up then… I also heard numerous testimonies and saw the changes in people after attending his conferences- good changes. His passion and genuine tears also fooled me. He also replied to a letter from my dying mother where he responded in a very WoF manner. We invited him to Welkom (a dying city) but the reply was that it is not big enough. Size matters you see…
    Deborah, you have guts. Exposing false preachers, especially ones with such a huge local following takes real guts. The Afrikaner is looking for a leader and we tend to cling to anything that is prepared to stand up- even a song called De La Rey… Why not just follow Jesus and stop putting our faith in mere mortals. You will find Jesus in the pages of the Bible- stop looking for and following regurgitated versions of Jesus from people and denominations/ churches, who gladly take your money in return. Angus at the last MMC quoted repeatedly the scripture from John 21:16 & 17- “feed my sheep” This has since become a revelation to me. False preachers capitalise on the fact that we do not apply discernment and we would eat any rubbish we are fed, including rat poison that kills us spiritually. Hitler, inspired by the spirit of antichrist said: “How fortunate for governments that people do not think” He knew about the mediocrity of the masses. Critics- stop your wailing and go to the Book of truth- Be good Bereans like those who would even confirm the words of Paul through scripture (Act 17:11). Deborah, I am with you on this one. EXPOSE!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fanie

    Thank you!! I am so glad you saw right through him and so quickly too. Jesus protects His children.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fanie

    Read this article too, this ties in with why Angus managed to pull the crowds so quickly. Now, people do not know this, but the NAR movement is all about the Church replacing Israel. And the lost tribes of Israel… and… put two and two together and you get a shock.

  • Elmarie A

    Fanie

    I noted this on another thread also . It will show the foreword about dvd.

    I watched a dvd lastnight made in 2009 by Alex Jones about the new world order and how long this has been in the making, to get ready for the one world order and one world religion. The dvd is called “Fall of the Republic:The Presidency of Barak Obama: it is available from this website: http://www.infowars.com/ this just made things so much clearer.

    They actually say in the dvd that there are 75000 pastors (yes!!! seventy five thousand) in usa who has already undergone training to sort of spy on the people of usa and their training also consist of telling the pastors how they must conduct their sermons. The government is telling the pastors how to conduct their sermons wow!!! and we are wondering why have so many churches go Apostate!! That knocked me for an A. This exclude all the other countries world wide, who also follow this all ready.

    Why are we receiving all the false teachers at such a rate this year for 2010. Well to train the south african pastors including the likes of Angus and the whole lot of course. Things are so far developed already and no stop can be put to it now.

    Children are paid up to 200 dollars for spying on their parents, they are taught how to at the schools!

    I would love to write a book for you on this but the dvd does explain everything.

    Debs this dvd is really almost a must have for one’s collection to keep track of things. I will try and find a sa supplier for those interested otherwise it can be ordered form this website. http://infowars-shop.stores.yahoo.net/videos.html

  • Abigail

    I’m sorry, I should have explained myself better. I am in no way dismissing the article, (if what you say about Angus Buchan is true, then I would have to agree with you) but I am also not accepting it as fact either. Just saying that I don’t know whether or not I can trust the author and will therefore take everything with a bigger grain of salt than I normally would. I read the other comments and did not find any explanation as to why you argued with the writer of Hebrews or how you can manage to know your Bible very well at all and miss such an important and famous verse as Heb. 12:1. But perhaps it is not as commonly known as I had thought. I grew up being taught the Word so likely it is more familiar to me than to others. But still, you might want to revise that part of your article now that you know where Mr. Buchan’s statement came from.

    It bothers me that most of your replies to people on here have sidestepped legitimate questions and been filled with sarcasm and condescension instead of love. It makes it harder for me, and for others I’m sure, to take you seriously. People have a strong tendency to want to go contrary to someone who is speaking to them the way that you have been in these comments. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13:35

  • Robbie

    Jdg 10:11 – 14 And the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Did not I deliver you from the Egyptians, and from the Amorites, from the children of Ammon, and from the Philistines?
    The Zidonians also, and the Amalekites, and the Maonites, did oppress you; and ye cried to me, and I delivered you out of their hand.
    Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more.
    *Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation*.

    Just a Biblical instance of sarcasm towards servers of other gods… not mentioning the call to expose and name them!

    Please don’t kill the messenger!! I did not say this!

  • cecilia

    Abigail, I understand your comment. answering a question with a question is actually seen in the Bible too (the LORD Jesus Christ being one). it’s not “side-stepping”. it prompts the questioner to think for themselves what they actually already know but don’t want to admit.
    Just my thought on this.

  • Elmarie A

    Abigail
    No need to appologise you are correct.

    It makes it harder for me, and for others I’m sure, to take you seriously. People have a strong tendency to want to go contrary to someone who is speaking to them the way that you have been in these comments. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13:35

    I can post you some links if you like about Angus Buchan and what is wrong with him.You can then discern on your time and give us feedback. I can also post you names of some good discernment dvd or cds if you like.

    We are here to help each other in Love.

    Blessings and love

  • Harry

    Hi Mister no-all.
    Please tell me what you have done for the Gospel?
    You sit in your little armchair with your big ego and judge the world. You are probably some idiot “Theologian’ who are nothing more than the same thing as the Lawyer or Scribe mentioned in the Gospels who try and give their own interpretation of what is actually being said. You are probably also a Calvinists who follow a Theology written by a mass murderer who had to preach his drivel so he could convince himself that he cannot be lost.( A man who believed in infant baptism, now that is heresy).
    The sad thing is that he is taking millions of people with him.
    I would much rather follow my Lord who gave us the great commission. If I may say as Paul did I probably sound like an idiot as I have to say I, (a supporter of Angus who has done more for the Gospel than all you and your computer faultfinders will ever do), reach out by myself to the poor and sick. I have had people healed by the laying on of my hands by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS STILL HERE TO HEAL AND SAVE. Why would Jesus say go and preach the Gospel heal the sick…… if He has stopped healing the sick than He must stop saving the lost as well? These were all part of the great commission. So take your theology and flush it down the toilet and do something for the Kingdom that will stand on the day of Judgement.
    Of course as you preach and reach out you get to deal with people that you do not agree with 100%.
    But if we have to stop preaching and reaching out we will become like you who does nothing but criticize and whose opinion is nothing but hot air.
    Thanks you but I would rather be a humble man like Angus who preaches repentance and holiness.
    Harry Coetsee
    South Africa.
    On my way to MMC 2010.
    Thank you Jesus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    Hmmmmm….ok. You don’t read much do you, I gather? Cos if you did you would know what the Bible has to say about all of this.

  • Robbie

    Hurry Harry!! hope Angus can teach you something about love and discernment…

    About this faith healing. The way W.O.F. goes about it – It is nothing less than mixing your bright ideas with God’s will. No wonder their destruction will be swift.

    1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

  • Elmarie A

    Harry

    Why would Jesus say go and preach the Gospel heal the sick

    Jesus spoke to the apostles Only not to you or me. Jesus gave the apostles this power of healing and driving out demons and to cure disease purely SO THAT THEY COULD GO OUT AND MAKE NON BELIEVERS TO BELIEVE. The non believers those days had nothing not even Scripture. Neither did the apostles have Scripture, they were writing the Bible not reading it.

    Luke 9 (Amplified Bible)

    1THEN JESUS called together the Twelve [apostles] and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases, 2And He sent them out to announce and preach the kingdom of God and to bring healing.3And He said to them, Do not take anything for your journey–neither walking stick, nor [a]wallet [for a collection bag], nor food of any kind, nor money, and do not have two undergarments (tunics).4And whatever house you enter, stay there until you go away [from that place].5And wherever they do not receive and accept and welcome you, when you leave that town shake off [even] the dust from your feet, as a testimony against them.6And departing, they went about from village to village, preaching the Gospel and restoring the afflicted to health everywhere.

    I have had people healed by the laying on of my hands

    The laying on of your hands did not heal the people. You could not heal the people. It was purely the will of God to heal them. if they where healed.

    Jesus healed people from kilometers away He did not need to “channel” God’s grace, through someones hands. The Apostles where instructed to actually lay their hands on the afflicted simply as a gesture so that the people could be further impressed by the truth of the Gospel. They did not “channel” the healing ala Benny Hinn.

    The Holy Spirit was sent to us and lives in us to make these things clear to christian believers.

    Do you really think Angus Buchan would have enjoyed the same popularity if he preached the full reality of the truth as laid out in THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST JESUS. These signs and wonders, healings, and convenient emphasis on the prosperity preaching are man based believes and not commissioned by God in the way you perceive it.

    Further more it is clear that people who where healed by Jesus while he was here with us and are documented, came about because of the faith in Jesus portrayed by the persons who where healed. Therefore it is evident that the healings took place firstly as a result of the faith of the believer, otherwise what would the point be of the apostles documenting the miracle? If it had not been so the glory of God would not have been evidenced.

    Further more it is clear that on each occasion the afflicted individuals called out to Jesus in absolute faith, believing that He would heal them. Jesus did not go looking for people to heal, neither did the apostles.

    Matthew 9:21
    For she kept saying to herself, If I only touch His garment, I shall be restored to health.

    Matthew 8:13
    Then to the centurion Jesus said, Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed. And the servant boy was restored to health at that very moment.

    Matthew 9:22
    Jesus turned around and, seeing her, He said, Take courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well. And at once the woman was restored to health.

    Matthew 11:5
    The blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed (by healing) and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up and the poor have good news (the Gospel) preached to them.

    Isn’t it evident that the prerequisite for these healings was firstly believing the gospel then divine healing which did not necessitate the laying on of hands.

    With all the supposed faith healers at our beck and call today, someone should go tell the medical students in all universities that their professions are becoming obsolete. Luke the apostle was a physician before he was an apostle. If laying on of hands and faith healing was intended to grow into the preposterous proportions in the church of today why did Luke, who had direct access to Jesus Himself continue on as a physician and as saint.

    Harry sorry I see many flaws in what you claim here and believe. You are truly in my prayers as is our brother Angus. Do not underestimate the deceptive powers of Satan, even in false healings in false churches preaching false gospels. THIS IS REAL.

  • Elmarie A

    Harry
    I’m telling you this in the love of the true Jesus. Please check whether this is true in the Word.

    Blessings

  • cecilia

    so you have an arm-chair now Deborah! anyways….

    I hope “Harry” ‘s language will be filtered at the MMC!? big void there… and I hope Angus (or someone there) can help him to get off the “I” throne…

    tell me when and why did “toilets” suddenly became so important? this is the second article that bring these “shiny useful ornaments” into the discussion… lol

  • Harry

    As i said I am sorry I had to use I, the same as Paul did not want to use I, but had to when he wanted to show some braggarts that they had to get of their self-crated thrones. Obviously you can’t read as I said THE HEALING WAS BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, I had nothing to do with it I am only a vessel that seek to do God’s will. The same as when I lead someone to Jesus by BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT I have nothing to do with it. I cannot heal a fly or save a sole, only My Father can do it by BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. I am only a willing servant that chooses to do the work instead of sitting on the side-line criticising the one who are prepared to get the job done. What amazes me is that you guys can say and insult as much as you like but can’t handle it when you get it back.
    Dear Elmarie and Cecilia: Sorry to have to tell you this Philip was not an apostle and he led the Ethiopian to the Lord. So was he not supposed to do that because he was not one of the twelve? When the Holy Spirit was poured out was it only on the 12 or the 120? This can go on and on but if you deny the power of the Gospel you are deceiving yourself, I suppose that why you have to sit on your little throne and judge the once who are doing the work.
    Angus does not preach a prosperity Gospel he preaches a simple message that simple people like me can understand. I am sorry if it is to simple a message for your mind that has been polluted by theologians who make it impossible for simple folk to understand. You see if a illiterate person cannot understand the Gospel then it is worthless as Paul said God uses the simple to bring the wise to nought, or confound the wise.(Not bad for a guy who knows this without reading much as Deborah said)
    Elmarie sorry to tell you this but you come over sarcastic as shown in your comment about the nurses. I am only saying this as it seems you think you walk in perfect love and need to pray for me. Thanks for your prayer please pray that I become more like Jesus and do the works He did and dare I say do even greater works than Him. By the way Jesus said that not me.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Well..seeing as though Harry has it all worked out, I don’t think I need to respond.

  • Elmarie A

    Harry
    You are just on this blog to insult it is so obvious. I will now flee from you I have to. And Ye shall know them by their fruit.

    1 Timothy 6:11
    But as for you, O man of God, flee from all these things; aim at and pursue righteousness (right standing with God and true goodness), godliness (which is the loving fear of God and being Christlike), faith, love, steadfastness (patience), and gentleness of heart.

    Galatians 5:19-26 (Amplified Bible)
    19Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
    20Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
    21Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,23Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[f]that can bring a charge].24And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.25If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [g]we have our life in God, let us go forward [h]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]26Let us not become vainglorious and self-conceited, competitive and challenging and provoking and irritating to one another, envying and being jealous of one another.

    You are truly in my prayers as is our brother Angus. Do not underestimate the deceptive powers of Satan, even in false healings in false churches preaching false gospels. THIS IS REAL.

  • Elmarie A

    Harry

    2 Timothy 3:5
    For [although] they hold a form of piety (true religion), they deny and reject and are strangers to the power of it [their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession]. Avoid [all] such people [turn away from them].

  • Harry

    Wow it is amazing how you guys answer with such self-righteousness yet think you have it all worked out.
    Maybe it is because of women like you that Paul said woman should be quiet and ask their husbands at home. But I understand why you are so ignorant and judge those we want revival and are obedient to the great commission; you probably do not have husbands to ask.
    This will be the scenario if we all had your attitude:
    1: We will all criticise each other instead of encouraging each other to do good works. (This is also in the bible).
    2: Sit in our little corners and pray every day for Jesus to return. My prayer is Lord please do not come yet, there are still lots to be done. (Jesus said blessed are those who are working when he returns not the ones who burry their talent and criticise those who put their talents to work.)
    3: Rejoice when some fellow brother or sister stumble.

    So yes this will probably not stop you from doing what you do,but please think twice before you judge a man like Angus and do not really have a clue what you are talking about. God is the judge not you!

  • cecilia

    Philip, was one of the seven men who had been chosen to help take care of the widows in Jerusalem (like a deacon). just to clear that out.

    anyone who come to repentance and salvation in the LORD Jesus Christ, is supposed to bring the same message (or repentance and salvation) to anyone they meet on their way of life. NO-WHERE on this blog have I ever seen any of “the guys” said or taught THIS (fact) differently! You’re more than welcome to point the specific words out if you can find them. so stop making assumptions and drawing your own conclusions because you read with darkened glasses.

    an example would be that Elmarie wrote these words: “someone should go tell the medical students in all universities that their professions are becoming obsolete.” which you took for “nurses”.

    Harry, if you truly believe in what you are doing, why are you so strongly defending yourself? AND if this is the way you react toward all who differ from you, you need to work on the way you come over – because when I read your words I can’t see this person being a clear instrument in God’s hands…

  • Elmarie A

    Harry
    People like you break my heart. So blind and a hardened heart.Do you know God blind people and the likes of you. The Scripture warns us in John 12:40. It is not too late to repent of your sins yet Harry. Jesus loves you Harry.

    John 12:40
    He has blinded their eyes and hardened and benumbed their [callous, degenerated] hearts [He has made their minds dull], to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their hearts and minds and repenting and turning to Me to heal them.

    Do you know our second commandment from Jesus is to show love.

    Mark 12:29-31 (Amplified Bible)
    29Jesus answered, The first and principal one of all commands is: Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord;
    30And you shall love the Lord your God [a]out of and with your whole heart and out of and with all your soul (your [b]life) and out of and with all your mind (with [c]your faculty of thought and your moral understanding) and out of and with all your strength. [d]This is the first and principal commandment.(A)
    31The second is like it and is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.(B)

    you probably do not have husbands to ask.

    Harry, you know lol lol my husband sat right next to me and was my advisor while answering you.

    Wow it is amazing how you guys answer with such self-righteousness yet think you have it all worked out.

    Harry I have the full armour of God that protects me against insults.

    Ephesians 6 (Amplified Bible)
    10In conclusion, be strong in the Lord [be empowered through your union with Him]; draw your strength from Him [that strength which His boundless might provides].
    11Put on God’s whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil.12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.13Therefore put on God’s complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place].14Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and of moral rectitude and right standing with God,15And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the [a]firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness [b]produced by the good news] of the Gospel of peace.(B)16Lift up over all the [covering] shield of [c]saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one].17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit [d]wields, which is the Word of God.18Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God’s consecrated people).

    I am only a willing servant that chooses to do the work

    willing servant of who Harry? Not of my Jesus who died for our sins on the cross and who commanded us to love our Lord God with our whole mind, body and spirit and the second command to love our neighbor as thyself.

    Sit in our little corners and pray every day for Jesus to return. My prayer is Lord please do not come yet there are still lots to be done

    How can you pray that Jesus must not return yet because you are not ready there are still lots to be done? We cannot set the terms for Jesus return. Prayer forms a great part of worshiping God, That is the only reason why God man, to praise and worship and pray to him.

    Psalm 66:20
    Blessed be God, Who has not rejected my prayer nor removed His mercy and loving-kindness from being [as it always is] with me.

    Romans 12:12
    Rejoice and exult in hope; be steadfast and patient in suffering and tribulation; be constant in prayer.

    Ephesians 6:18
    Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God’s consecrated people).

    1 Thessalonians 5:17
    Be unceasing in prayer [praying perseveringly];

    and do not really have a clue what you are talking about

    So you are saying Harry the Word of God teaches nothing and therefore we have no clue what we are talking about? Wow !! Every thing I told you was confirmed by Scripture and it is clear to me what the Bible teaches us and it is true.

    2 Timothy 3:16
    Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),

    Rejoice when some fellow brother or sister stumble.

    It is not christian to do that!!! We are told to admonish them in love. And seriously advise them. And after admonishing him a first and second time, reject [him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him].
    To rejoice if a brother or sister stumbles is a sin.

    Ephesians 4:32
    And become useful and helpful and kind to one another, tenderhearted (compassionate, understanding, loving-hearted), forgiving one another [readily and freely], as God in Christ forgave you.

    1 Thessalonians 5:14
    And we earnestly beseech you, brethren, admonish (warn and seriously advise) those who are out of line [the loafers, the disorderly, and the unruly]; encourage the timid and fainthearted, help and give your support to the weak souls, [and] be very patient with everybody [always keeping your temper].

    1 Timothy 5:20
    As for those who are guilty and persist in sin, rebuke and admonish them in the presence of all, so that the rest may be warned and stand in wholesome awe and fear.

    Hebrews 10:25
    Not forsaking or neglecting to assemble together [as believers], as is the habit of some people, but admonishing (warning, urging, and encouraging) one another, and all the more faithfully as you see the day approaching.

    Titus 3:10
    [As for] a man who is factious [a heretical sectarian and cause of divisions], after admonishing him a first and second time, reject [him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him],

    Harry you have not shown any love on this blog for your fellow christian. You just want to cause division here even after admonishing you in love and firmness.

    You are truly in my prayers as is our brother Angus. Do not underestimate the deceptive powers of Satan, even in false healings in false churches preaching false gospels. THIS IS REAL.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    >> think you have it all worked out.

    But I told you Harry, you have got it worked out. So why are you complaining about nothing.

    You judge us by saying we judge others. Bit silly don’t you think.

    Btw, if you read that verse about Paul regarding woman properly he was actually being sarcastic to the Corinthians by, repeating their question back to them with a tone of ‘where did you get that nonsense from’.. Women can not be the head and should never head a church, but they sure speak the gospel if they want. And this is not a church Harry. And no where in the bible does is say Harry that I need to keep quiet and accept false teaching. Do you think a man should lead his family into false doctrine and they must just accept it? How would you feel if you were a women and your husband was following a false god and you were forced to obey. What would you do Harry? Keep quiet or preach the gospel to your husband and do your best to keep your children safe.

    But as I said before, you do have it all figured out, so please do move on…I suggest the Bible as your next stop.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    This will be the scenario if we all had your attitude:

    1: We will all criticise each other instead of encouraging each other to do good works. (This is also in the bible).
    2: Sit in our little corners and pray every day for Jesus to return. My prayer is Lord please do not come yet, there are still lots to be done. (Jesus said blessed are those who are working when he returns not the ones who burry their talent and criticise those who put their talents to work.)

    So you don’t want to pray all day, you want to do nothing but good works, and you don’t want Jesus Christ to come back. Thank goodness I am me and not you.

    Alrighty, you have made your point…loud and clear. So know we know what MMC is about.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie

    Harry you have not shown any love on this blog for your fellow christian. You just want to cause division here even after admonishing you in love and firmness.

    You are truly in my prayers as is our brother Angus. Do not underestimate the deceptive powers of Satan, even in false healings in false churches preaching false gospels. THIS IS REAL.

    I just want to say something here

    No one is your brother and sister in Jesus Christ UNLESS they are saved. Until they are truly saved which means they are truly Christian only then are they part of the body of Christ and will be your bother and sister in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

    I want nothing to do with people who insult my Lord and Saviour. It’s not me they are insulting it’s Jesus. And no one insults Jesus. They know their hearts and they know fully well what they really think of the REAL Jesus Christ of the Bible. Any one who has any ounce of love for Jesus Christ would come to Him and repent. Until such time I want nothing to do with them. There is more than enough info on this website to help people, but their hearts are darkened and refuse to listen. We pray for them and then leave them in God’s hands. He is the One who changes peoples lives and hearts (of course you have to be willing to listen).

    So we pray that Harry has the conviction of the Holy Spirit in His life and comes before Jesus Christ where he finds utter joy in wanting to pray and wants to see Jesus Christ the Son of God as soon as possible instead of not wanting to see Jesus Christ (the one who he professes to love to much). Who would not want to see their loved one as soon as yesterday?

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    No one is your brother and sister in Jesus Christ UNLESS they are saved.

    I agree with you on all. Harry has come here and lead us to believe he is saved by making his claims. Now we now better.
    Harry comes from the false church and it’s false teachings.

    Harry said: I would much rather follow my Lord who gave us the great commission. If I may say as Paul did I probably sound like an idiot as I have to say I, (a supporter of Angus who has done more for the Gospel than all you and your computer faultfinders will ever do), reach out by myself to the poor and sick. I have had people healed by the laying on of my hands by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS STILL HERE TO HEAL AND SAVE.

    We have now given Harry enough to think about and if he think he was truly saved.

  • Fanie van Staden

    Wow, the sad thing is there are hundreds of thousands of Harry’s going to MMC 2010 and if I had not discovered the truth I would also again have been at the feet of that false teacher this year, with my son next to me. I thank God that He has opened my eyes and has given me a spirit of discernment to test and to question. I wonder if it is the same god that sends Harry to MMC 2010??
    Most of my friends have heeded this warning, studied the facts and are also withdrawing from the ’10 conference. Thanks Robbie! When I doubted, you jolted me with this website…
    Please tell me how I can view the photographs in this article?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fanie

    Yaaaaaa good point, they seemed to go missing one day. I think that might have been the day I messed something up on this website. I will have them up now now.

  • Elmarie A

    Fanie

    “Wow, the sad thing is there are hundreds of thousands of Harry’s going to MMC 2010″‘

    VERY SAD INDEED!

    You know if a truly saved christian has to attend this and start preaching the true gospel. And tell those at MMC to think and start to discern, you would not get out of there alive!

    The aggression shown by some who are going to attend MMC is
    just staggering.

  • Robbie

    save your pearls guys…

  • Robbie

    *sob*… just me here tonight?

  • Amanda

    Harry

    Thanks you but I would rather be a humble man like Angus who preaches repentance and holiness.

    You are correct. Angus does preach repentance and holiness. Yet, Jesus Christ said:

    Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Luk 24:46-47

    You cannot preach forgiveness of sins unless you preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Christianity is not about good works. Good works are the fruit of the preaching of the Gospel. Preaching should be focused on the Christ and not the Christian. When Angus preaches: “I used to be something else and look at me now. I humbled myself and now I obey God,” he is stuck on the Law. Christianity is not about pleasing God, earning entry into heaven by keeping the Law. Christianity is about the Good News that Jesus Christ died for sinners, giving us His righteousness in exchange for our lawbreaking.

  • Fanie van Staden

    Deborah
    Still no photographs…
    I am attempting a translation into Afrikaans as most of the people being mislead by Angus are Afrikaans speaking. I will forward to you for your stamp of approval…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fanie

    It’s coming…hold yer horsies.

  • Amanda

    Fanie

    Die Domeinistiese Geloof van Angus Buchan (Faith Like Potatoes) – Deel 1.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Die Domeinistiese Geloof van Angus Buchan (Faith Like Potatoes) – Deel 1.

    Thanks Amanda I was going to do just that.

    Fanie just note that I did update my article slightly since Thomas Lessing translated my article on his blog, so just check mine and then add the translate the new stuff if you feel it necessary.

  • Elmarie A

    oooook Angus will be on E TV NEWS TONITE telling the country what is wrong with South Africa

    ANGUS BUCHAN LIVE TONIGHT (9 April) ON ENEWS “NEWS NIGHT” WITH JEREMY MAGGS 18:30. CHANNEL 403 DSTV

    WHAT IS GOING ON IN SOUTH AFRICA??

    ALSO ETV ON SAT 6:00, SUN 6:30

  • Elmarie A

    Hmmmmm watch out for the visions.

  • cecilia

    mmm, the clouds….. the clouds… please send them to Dbn?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    C

    >> mmm, the clouds….. the clouds… please send them to Dbn?

    You’ll have to ask Angus about that one…

  • Elmarie A

    Yes maybe they wll have a “call in show” thingie tonight where someone can pose the question to Angus…lol

  • BOD

    I’ve seen Angus preach in Perth, Australia. I can personally attest he has a heart for the Lord, and is a Godly man. He preaches the full Gospel, ie repentance for sin. He has a heart to see people repent and to give their lives over to God, to have a deeper loving relationship with God, and to share the Good News.

    I’m not sure what your motives are, but the reality of it is that you are attacking a man of God, and you do not have a credible basis to do so. You are being extremely legalistic in your approach and nitpicking, twisting quotes to conform to your legalistic arguments.

    God bless you,

    Brett

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BOD

    Well I am not sure what your motives are either for not wanting to read your Bible and instead follow men who you ‘think’ have a heart for the Lord. Your 100% sure his motives are what they say they are? BOD I think you need to come to South Africa and see what he has been up to, you might get the shock of your life. Or not, I dunno. I don’t know your heart. And you don’t know mine either. But you seem to know Angus’. Weird.

  • Amanda

    BOD

    Repentance of sin is not the Gospel.

  • BOD

    ok, where do I start..

    Your information on Angus appears very light. In all honesty, have you actually ever seen him preach before? The bulk of your critique is based on a few isolated newsletter quotes here and there, cherry picked and then contorted to fit your arguments (with difficulty). From your article I get the gist you actually do not know the Gospel he preaches, and therefore you are picking at his quotes with ‘technicalities’ from a questionable doctrinal position. Because these arguments are unconvincing you resort to “guilt by association” where you draw some very hazy links between Angus and the New Apostolic Reformation.

    As a Christian, I find it difficult to fathom another Christian would take issue with Angus because he is inviting people from all faiths to attend his meetings. Heaven forbid the gospel is preached to people of different faiths. And many of these people need to hear the Gospel! Yet you use it as a launch pad to link him to the Emergent movement.

    Angus quote “Anyone desiring to be used by our Lord for Divine Healing must have a heart for those who suffer because Jesus uses hearts and hands and compassion to heal the sick.” Mark 16 v20. [10] [Emphasis added]

    Article quote “So all you need is compassion and a desire to be used by the Lord….hmmm, does not matter if what you preach contradicts the Bible.”

    You are distorting Angus’ words to fit your arguments. He did not say “all you need is compassion and desire to be used by the Lord”. That is your words not his.

    You concede that at Angus’ meetings there is repentence, but you brush it away as ‘Group repentence’ based on emotion and not true repentence. Who are you to make such a presumption that a person at one of those meetings is not making a genuine heart cry to the Lord for forgiveness, and is having an encounter with the Lord?

    You talk alot about fruit. Where has Angus’ ministry born bad fruit? I’ve witnessed it first hand and I can attest there was good fruit at that meeting. Men giving their hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Another Angus quote you have locked onto with legalistic precision “lay aside the weight of sin which so easily ensnares us” (the pharisees would be proud). If a person is living under the new covenant, forged in Jesus blood, then Jesus’ sacrifice is enough to cleanse that person of their sin. People must have faith that Jesus’ sacrifice is enough to set them free of judgement for their sin. Else a person will continue to live in OT covenant terms, in constant fear of sin and judgement which will weigh them down and prevent them from recognising God Loves them and wants relationship with them! So yes, we should lay aside the weight of sin, and recognise Jesus’ sacrifice has made a way for us.

    Another Angus quote “I would really encourage you to continue to let your expectations for your life, for your family, for your vision, TO COME ONLY FROM GOD”. Yet you tea off on him on prosperity doctrine even though his quote is encouraging people to let their expectations come only from God.

    Article quote “The problem with Angus’ healing ministry etc is that these signs were only given to the Apostles. Satan’s greatest lie is to convince you that the gift of healing still plays a major role in the church today. This is not true, for if it was we would have the most terrible time trying to discern under whose power the healings took place.”

    Where is your biblical foundation for such assertions? I wish you would adopt your legalistic precision to your own human assertions. Your assertions run counter to the gospel.

    The divine commission (Mark 16:15-18) is not limited to the apostles and biblical times. We are to spread the Good News about the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is here right now! It didn’t end in biblical times. Therefore The Holy Spirit will move as He chooses, through God loving people to spread the Good news and heal the sick, even through the laying of hands. This is consistent with the Bible and acts. God does not inhibit signs and healings just because “we would have the most terrible time trying to discern under whose power the healing took place.”

    God bless,

    Brett

  • Harry

    Hi Harry is back.
    I have just come back from MMC2010. Great to see thousands of men promising to be the watchmen of their families!!!! Thank you my Jesus for putting one man in our country who look for a solution instead of trying to get us to sit and feel sorry for ourselves and judge and condemn the people who strife to make a difference.
    I see you are a few people who sit and criticise Angus.
    What qualifies you to do what you do?
    I can feel the love of Jesus oozing from the pages.(Ha,Ha)
    Examine your hearts and motives.
    Please let me know how many people you have brought to the feet of Jesus?
    How many poor people have you helped?
    BY YOUR FRUITS YOU WILL BE KNOWN.
    Please look at your face in the mirror and realize you are not the sheriff of the church.
    By the way neither Angus nor I hold is part of the Kingdom now bunch. The word states clearly in Romans 8:22 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Just because Angus used this scripture publicity does not make him one of them.
    Get a life and do something positive for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ
    Hi Harry is back.
    I have just come back from MMC2010. Great to see thousands of men promising to be the watchmen of their families!!!! Thank you my Jesus for putting one man in our country who look for a solution instead of trying to get us to sit and feel sorry for ourselves and judge and condemn the people who strife to make a difference.
    I see you are a few people who sit and criticise Angus.
    What qualifies you to do what you do?
    I can feel the love of Jesus oozing from the pages.(Ha,Ha)
    Examine your hearts and motives.
    Please let me know how many people you have brought to the feet of Jesus?
    How many poor people have you helped?
    BY YOUR FRUITS YOU WILL BE KNOWN.
    Please look at your face in the mirror and realize you are not the sheriff of the church.
    By the way neither Angus nor I hold is part of the Kingdom now bunch. The word states clearly in Romans 8:22 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Just because Angus used this scripture publicity does not make him one of them.
    Get a life and do something positive for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ
    Get a life and do something positive for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ
    This will be my last comment. Please blow up your computers and do something for God that will stand the test of fire. Remember you will be judged for every word you say.
    This is for Bod, Bod please do not waste your time with these bitter Pharisees!

    I hope you are brave enough to publish this on your demonic site. (It is easy to throw names around, calling Angus a demon)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    Lovely reply, full of the love you received at the MMC. If this is what you came back like I can only imagine what the others came back like. I feel sorry for their wifes and children.

    >> please let me know how many people you have brought to the feet of Jesus?

    But Hary you should know that men do not bring people to Jesus, but the Holy Spirit.

    >> I hope you are brave enough to publish this on your demonic site.

    Oh course Harry, everyone needs to know what you think of Jesus Christ.

  • Amanda

    BOD

    Start by explaining your statement:

    He preaches the full Gospel, ie repentance for sin.

    I agree that Oom Angus does teach repentance. I do not agree that that is the Gospel.
    You said:

    Where has Angus’ ministry born bad fruit? I’ve witnessed it first hand and I can attest there was good fruit at that meeting.

    BOD, you claim to be the fruit of Oom Angus’ preaching, yet you get the Gospel wrong. Harry has just returned from MMC 2010. Oom Angus sent him home with a list of things to do and not with the comfort of the Gospel: It is finished. He is not here to defend Jesus Christ the Savior, but Oom Angus his taskmaster. There is a huge divide between repentance and works on the one hand and faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the other hand:

    What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
    (Rom 4:1-8)

    Hi Harry

    According to Dr. Dion Forster, Oom Angus sent you men out to be reconcilers. Hours away from Shalom and you have messed it up already.

    And Harry, you do not get to play the Pharisee card here without being challenged. On what grounds do you call us Pharisees? If you can justify that label, I am sure the 400 000 will give you a great big AMEN!

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)
    lol lol
    Oh so Harry went to MMC to get them power to to write his last victorious comment to us all. ha ha ha such rubish

    eeeeuuuuw is that what they come back with from MCC!!! Noooo To write such rubish. Thank goodness I could stop all those I know not to go to MMC. Now I can show them why I gave them good sound Biblical advise to stay far away from MMC. I will just show them Harry’s last comment. It is as if Harry’s last comment is demonic.

    I wonder if Harry met DF?? lol lol and maybe read DF latest book. It was hugely advertised at MMC so I would be surprised if Harry did not buy this demonic book.

    It is sooo obvious Harry could not wait to write his last comment filled by demonic spirits.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    Did you meet Dion Forster at the Might Men Conference? Did he speak at all? Do you know who Dion Forster is? Do you want to know who this man is? And what he really believes in? Do you want to know the truth Harry? If so, just click these links and read them properly.

    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/17/dion-forster-and-the-drive-by-rebuking-video/
    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/11/24/graham-power-angus-buchan-the-transformation-of-africa/

    Harry all I am trying to do is warn you as to what you are getting yourself involved in. You can insult me till the cows come home. It does not change the fact that all these men you hold so high are following a false Christ and are leading you in the same direction with nice words of peace and happiness.

  • Fanie

    BOD
    Satan comes disguised as an angel of light. Deceipt comes in varying packages. Mostly it comes in the form of rat poison, but packaged in a chocolate box- otherwise “good” people will not eat it. It is 99% good chocolate and 1% deadly poison mixed in. Tastes like chocolate but it is sure to kill you and send your spirit to hell. Did you think Angus will be able to mislead hundreds of thousands if he was wearing satan’s flaming pentagram on his shirt and swore like a sailor?
    Even the very elect is being deceived Brett! Many poeple who defended Angus and his crowd’s teachings have AFTER having questioned and studied the facts from scripture come to the realisation of its deceipt. I have too and it was not easy- my heart was sooo hoping for a revival, that I WANTED it to be so.
    But it turned out to be a lie… You see, the moment you compare it with the Truth, it starts falling apart.

  • BOD

    Hello Amanda,

    John the Baptist preached, “repent for the Kingdom of heaven is near.”

    In Luke 13:1-5, Jesus spoke of repentence, “unless you repent, you too will all perish”.

    In Acts 3:19, Peter spoke on repentence, “repent, then and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord..”

    I’m talking about repentence in terms of a radical and deliberate turning or returning to God that results in moral and ethical change and action.

    Repentence is an intrinsic part of the Gospel message. It is about recognising our fallen self, and how we were hopelessly lost in sin. Yet because of Christ’s sacrifice for us, and his immense grace, we are redeemed and set right before God, not through our own effort, but by His grace.

    Can you please explain how repentence is not part of the Gospel?

    God bless,

    Brett

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BOD

    Are you speaking about repentance in a group format – that if everyone repents then there will be moral and ethical change in any specific city and then in a specific country and then the whole world?

    Or are you speaking about repentance in your own individual life, where you repent of your own personal sins through Jesus Christ and that His Blood that was shed on the Cross washes you clean and covers you so that you may be presented Holy before our Heavenly Father?

    Do you believe that repentance of sin in an ongoing part of your relationship with Jesus Christ?

  • Amanda

    BOD

    This is the Gospel, the Good News:

    Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. (1Co 15:1-5)

    Paul said he got this Gospel from Jesus Christ Himself:

    For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)

    He also warned;

    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:6-9)

    Jesus Christ said

    “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (Luk 24:46-47)

    Oom Angus preaches repentance and good works and holy living. He holds himself up as an example of the changed life, the Christian life. The Bible says:

    yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Gal 2:16)

    And that faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Rom 10:17)Paul said:

    For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. (1Co 2:2)

    That is not the hallmark of Oom Agnus’ preaching.

    I would encourage you to read the full articles by Chris Rosebrough linked to below.

    Rick Warren Purpose Driven Critique – Is Repentance the Central Message of the New Testament?

    What holds true for a marriage also holds true in our relationship with God. I need to hear that God loves me and forgives me constantly. This is not mere information that we are talking about. This is one critical facet of Christian preaching that cannot be neglected because all of us still sin, daily, hour by hour, minute by minute and trying harder to be more obedient and sinning less cannot and does not absolve us of our sins nor does it quiet our guilty consciences. Even though I have been a Christian nearly all of my life (I am 40 years old) I still need to hear God tell me that He loves me and forgives me of my sins. I need to hear this gospel message just as often as I need to hear my wife tell me that she loves me.

    If I do not hear the gospel but instead only hear that I must try harder or apply certain steps in order to be more obedient or change my life then I am likely to despair and begin to believe that God only loves me based upon my performance and despair and think that God doesn’t love me anymore because of my lack of obedience. Even worse, I may become self-deceived like the Pharisees and think that I am more favored by God because of my better obedience. (That is not the Christian faith. That is self-righteousness.)

    Rick Warren’s Law Based “Gospel”

    In this edition of Fighting for the Faith I respond to Rick Warren’s “Gospel”. Listen carefully because Rick Warren makes Jesus’ forgiveness dependent upon you ‘Loving God With Your Whole Heart’.

    A Picture of a Thousand Words
    They say a picture is worth a thousand words. But, what if you could take a thousand words and turn them into a picture? What would that picture teach us? Well, when it comes to comparing the content, center and subject of “Purpose-Driven” preaching versus Christ-Centered preaching these ‘word pictures’ tell us a lot.

    Below, I’ve taken some of Rick Warren’s sermons and created ‘word clouds’ of them. Word clouds display the most used words in the largest font size while the least used are in the smallest font size. Word Clouds provide us with a visual means of determining what something is really about by isolating words and themes and prioritizing them.

    For the sake of comparison, I have also taken a couple of sermons from the Rev. William Cwirla, pastor of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Hacienda Heights, CA.

    The differences between the two sets of sermons are startling! One set of sermons is focused on Jesus Christ and in the other set Jesus is practically missing (even though one of the sermons is an EASTER SERMON!).

    Rick Warren Purpose Driven Critique – Does PD Preaching Have Any Good News to Offer Me?

    I don’t need good advice, I need good news.

    I confess that I do NOT love God with all of my heart, I HAVE taken the Lord’s name in vain, I have NOT kept the Sabbath, I have NOT honored and obeyed my parents, I HAVE murdered, I HAVE committed adultery, I HAVE stolen, I HAVE lied and I HAVE coveted everything that belongs to my neighbor including his wife, his car, his clothes, and is entertainment center.

    All of these sins I have committed since becoming a Christian. All of these sins I have committed THIS WEEK and every time I break even one of the commandments the Bible says that I am guilty of breaking the ENTIRE law.

    James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

    I am sick with sin through and through. I don’t need good advice, I need good news.

    I am desperate because God’s word says that I deserve His wrath, punishment and hell for all eternity for the sins that I have committed and I am terrified because I know that God is just.

    I don’t need good advice right now. I need good news.

    Telling me to repent, change my mind and be more obedient just won’t cut it. I already know and believe that all of these things that I have done and continue to do are sinful and wrong and contrary to what the one true and holy God expects and demands from me. It’s too late, the cow is already out of the barn for me. I can’t go back and undo these sins and ‘trying harder’ and ‘doing better’ is just not going to be enough.

    So I don’t need ‘good advice’ right now.

  • BOD

    Deborah, repentance is always about the heart level between a person and God. In my experience, it can occur when a person is in the wilderness, having one on one time with the Lord. It can also occur in a group situation where the Gospel is being preached and a person is convicted in their heart. I’m not sure why you are locking onto this “group format” issue.

    Surely you must accept that when Jesus preached there would have been multitudes present, and people would have been convicted to repent, in a group situation. Same again with John the Baptist and Peter, preaching to the multitudes…

    Deborah, I believe that repentance is ongoing as part of my relationship with Jesus. When I fall, I feel compelled to have a heart to heart to the Lord and seek his forgiveness and I believe His grace is enough to redeem me.

    Amanda,

    You state:
    Jesus Christ said
    “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (Luk 24:46-47)
    So why are you splitting hairs on repentance? Lets just agree that repentance is part of the Gospel. If repentance is not part of the Gospel, then what are you going to say to the Gnostics who believe humanity is not fallen and therefore they do not require redemption through Jesus sacrifice?

    How do you know what Angus preaches? Have you seen him preach? Or is your judgment on Angus based on legalistic dissection of a few newsletter quotes? The reason I ask is that there is nothing in the article above which presents solid evidence that Angus’ is preaching a counterfeit gospel, ie a works based gospel.

    In any case, I agree with the following sentiments:
    What holds true for a marriage also holds true in our relationship with God. I need to hear that God loves me and forgives me constantly. This is not mere information that we are talking about. This is one critical facet of Christian preaching that cannot be neglected because all of us still sin, daily, hour by hour, minute by minute and trying harder to be more obedient and sinning less cannot and does not absolve us of our sins nor does it quiet our guilty consciences. Even though I have been a Christian nearly all of my life (I am 40 years old) I still need to hear God tell me that He loves me and forgives me of my sins. I need to hear this gospel message just as often as I need to hear my wife tell me that she loves me.
    If I do not hear the gospel but instead only hear that I must try harder or apply certain steps in order to be more obedient or change my life then I am likely to despair and begin to believe that God only loves me based upon my performance and despair and think that God doesn’t love me anymore because of my lack of obedience. Even worse, I may become self-deceived like the Pharisees and think that I am more favored by God because of my better obedience. (That is not the Christian faith. That is self-righteousness.)

    I strongly recommend you witness his preaching first hand, as in my experience he was preaching life giving gospel and the Holy Spirit was moving in that place. If your legalism is misplaced you may be turning people away from the gospel via this website.

    God bless,

    Brett

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BOD

    BOD, I get what you are saying re repentace

    >> Surely you must accept that when Jesus preached there would have been multitudes present, and people would have been convicted to repent, in a group situation.

    You miss the point. That is not what Angus and friends are doing. When they tell you to pray you are praying for yourself and for the entire country to change. Just like Tutu did when the zenaphobia was rampant – he asked forgiveness on their behalf.

    Secondly there will be men who go to the MMC because they genuinely seek Jesus Christ in their hearts and these men will be saved. But the fact remains; Angus and friends preach another gospel that is contrary to the Bible. I have seen Angus preach twice first hand – makes no difference – he sure is a good entertainer and gets the crowd worked up with his lively gospel. Ammmmennnnnnn. But his message is still false. It sounds good and it sounds biblical but it’s not.

    Let’s start with 5 questions:

    — Do you believe that the Church has replaced Israel? This is called Replacement theology. That South Africans are part of the lost tribes of Israel? Did you hear or see a lot of Shofar blowing going on around the camp?

    — And another question, do you believe that all faiths who ‘call’ themselves Christian but are not like Mormons etc can UNIFY without changing their heretical beliefs?

    — What do you think Revival really means?

    — Do you understand what Angus means when he says, “the manifestations of the sons of God is near’?

    — Do you believe the Holy Spirit abides in Christians? or do you think the Holy Spirit hangs around in the atmosphere, moving amongst the crowd?

  • Amanda

    BOD

    Lets just agree that repentance is part of the Gospel.

    It is not. 1Co 15:1-5

    what are you going to say to the Gnostics who believe humanity is not fallen and therefore they do not require redemption through Jesus sacrifice?

    You hold up God’s Law as mirror so that they can see how God sees them. What they believe is irrelevant to the consequences of their sin: God’s wrath. And saying sorry for your sin, repenting, does not cover the sin.

    If your legalism is misplaced you may be turning people away from the gospel via this website.

    What legalism? Explain that, please. No BOD, I am not turning people away from the Gospel. As you have shown in your writing, people do not know what the Gospel is and what it is not. You said:

    He preaches the full Gospel, ie repentance for sin.

    That is what turn people away from the Gospel and I am cleaning up the confusion you brought. And yes, I have seen Oom Angus boast, I mean preach. It was a terrible experience. He had the opportunity to proclaim Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but he squandered it and proclaimed Angus Buchan and him improved. He proclaimed the Law and good deeds and optimism, but not the Good News, although he did mention it. He spoke about it for all of about, oh let’s say 30 seconds. That is not preaching it.

  • Harry

    Hi Bod
    You are wasting your time!
    These self-righteous Pharisees feel they are the sheriff of the church.
    Move on and let them be judged for doing nothing but criticise the people who are prepared to get their hands dirty and seek the lost, sick, rejected and poor.
    Every answer you have they will find a scripture to shoot you down. Some advice to you lot when you find a truth balance it with a scripture that might not fit your theology and then you will see the real meaning of the scriptures you take out of context. What amazes me is how you have perfected the way you accuse me of not “walking in love” yet you are sarcastic and self-righteous.

  • Valerie

    Just wanted to say a word about repentance.

    It is right that repentance is not “a part of the Gospel” but it is a pre-requesit. Acts 17:30, Acts 17:31, Luke 18:13

    God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

    Unless we have recognized our desperate condition before God and humbled ourselves, we remain in the dark.

    When you believe that Christ is who He said He was and believe that it is because of our sin that He had to come, then you will want to turn from your sin and trust Him for your righteousness.

    Repentance isn’t about cleaning up our act, it is about how we view our own sin nature and our constant need of God working in our lives to set us apart from the world. We desire to live as willing slaves to righteousness.

    This is what regeneration is about, we have a new nature that no longer desires to sin, though we are still trapped in this body of death. Our desire is to be pleasing to God and we are looking forward to our blessed hope, when we will be set free from this body of death.

  • BOD

    Amanda,

    I think you need to take the blinkers off and stop being so stubborn. Repent in its simplest form means to turn away from sin. How can a person be restored by the blood of Jesus, if they choose not to repent, ie, they choose sin instead of Jesus’ offer of life?

    If repentence is not part of the gospel, why did Jesus and Peter preach on it?

    If you can’t see what I’m saying, I think we’ll just agree to disagree.

    Web definitions for legalism
    “strict conformity to the letter of the law rather than its spirit”

    You’ve demonstrated strict conformity to a narrow legalistic definition of the gospel. It comes across as a Pharisee like defense of OT law. So any gospel that falls outside of your legal definition is portrayed as basically being of satan. Sounds familiar?

    Deborah, I’ll answer your 5 questions soon. The wife is taking over my laptop to go on facebook. :>

    God bless,

    Brett

  • Robbie

    Bod…

    Acts 3:19 does not say

    “repent, then and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord..”

    It says, Repent and BE TURNED!

    But that is what Angus says not? “South Africa… turn to god”. Maybe he knows better…

  • Robbie

    And you Fanie… Spell = P e o p l e = 10 X

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Robbie

    It’s actually Turn 2 god – sms version.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    What a wonderful person you are. Please do carry on insulting us.

  • Robbie

    Ek read the one with the BIG letters Debs. I am careful for the fine print…. he he he

    (KJV-1611) Repent yee therefore, and bee conuerted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shal come from the presence of the Lord.

    (KJVA) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

  • Robbie

    Harry –

    ‘Every answer you have they will find a scripture to shoot you down’

    Sorry mate, that is the only weapon we have… Scripture… not ourselves and our man-made armour.

  • Amanda

    No, BOD. I will not agree to disagree. You are wrong. You said:

    You’ve demonstrated strict conformity to a narrow legalistic definition of the gospel.

    First of all, Gospel is not Law. The Gospel is what sets us free from the Law. Keep the two separate. Secondly, my ‘narrow legalistic definition’ of the Gospel is not my own, but it is how the Word of God defines it. 1Co 15:1-5. If you do not like it, your argument is with the Word and not with me.

    So any gospel that falls outside of your legal definition is portrayed as basically being of satan. Sounds familiar?

    Yes, it does:

    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:6-9)

    It comes across as a Pharisee like defense of OT law.

    By the way, Jesus Christ did not condemn the Pharisees for their defense of the Law.

    Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'” (Mat 15:1-9)

    Repentance is not unique to Christianity. From How do Muslims repent to God?

    You repent to God (Allah) through:

    * Admitting the sin you committed,
    * intending not to commit the sin again,
    * requesting Allah to forgive you, and
    * to return the rights to others who are affected by the sin and asking for their forgiveness, if any.

    Repentance is not the Gospel. Repentance is the response when the Law is preached lawfully “so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.”
    (Rom 3:19) If the Law is preached properly, then you know that you are dead. Dead, not okay, so sorry and I’ll try harder in future. You are dead and in need of a Savior. If repentance were the Gospel, then why was Jesus Christ hanging dead on the cross?

    BOD, here is an extract from A Listener’s Guide to the Pulpit

    The Law tells us what God requires and what God forbids. The Law shows us that we have not done what God requires and have done what God forbids. The Law’s demands are perfect, and the Law requires perfect obedience in thought, word and deed. The Law says, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind… You shall love your neighbor as yourself” [4] The Law calls anything short of perfect obedience sin.

    The Gospel tells us what God has done to save sinners. The Gospel shows us that Jesus has done everything the Law requires for us. The Gospel answers the perfect demands of the Law with the perfect, sinless obedience of Jesus. The Gospel says, “What the Law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.”[5] The Gospel answers the accusations of the Law with the life, death and resurrection of Jesus for us. There are no demands in the good news of the Gospel. There is only the free gift of God’s grace.

    In Scripture we see this basic division of Law and Gospel in the summary of Jesus’ first public preaching: “Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. ‘The time has come,’ he said. ”The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news! [6] It is also the basic outline of the Apostle’s preaching. [7]

    The difference between a good sermon and a bad sermon is whether or not it rightly divides Law and Gospel. A good sermon must show sinners their sin, and show sinners their Savior.

    Read the article and then we can talk about Oom Angus’ sermons.

  • Amanda

    Valerie

    When you believe that Christ is who He said He was and believe that it is because of our sin that He had to come, then you will want to turn from your sin and trust Him for your righteousness.

    Amen. And faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.(Rom 10:17) Oom Angus is very heavy on the Law and the men repent with great emotion and receive forgiveness and a second chance to get it right this time. Oom Angus leaves them under the Law and the obligation to clean up their act. Then they come here and defend not the Gospel, not Jesus Christ their righteousness, but Oom Angus. If they were mighty men of God they would come back and cleanse the pulpits of every pastor who refuses to preach the Law in all of its severity and the Gospel in all of its sweetness.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    Thanks for that! I knew you would sort that one out. And you are 100% correct.

  • Harry

    Robbie
    A scripture that suits your doctrine taken out of context.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    LOL @ Purpose Driven Heavenly Rewards Calculator

    I failed. Felt like high school all over again ahah.

  • Barland Johnson

    Hi Deborah
    The deluded will always attack the person and not dscuss the issue. (NAZI AND AWB tactic)but not one them could properly discuss and take you on with the word of GOD and from the word of GOD show you that you are wrong. Is it because they read oom angus’s devotions, or other literature other than the bible and call themselves christian. Like the gent whose wife wants to use the computer for facebook.
    A quote from a preacher “when the devil tells the truth do not believe him”. When angus mixes truth with lies do not believe him – my wife want’s to go on facebook – friend. Please come up with a valid biblical argument or debate and counter her with the word of GOD. otherwise we will all laugh at you every time and say a girl beat you. hehehehe
    WE LOVE THE TRUTH
    WE LOVE THE TRUTH

  • Amanda

    Deborah

    I have Good News for you! Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures (1Co 15:3)

    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:21-26)

  • Amanda

    Harry

    Were you given the Unashamedly Ethical commitment form at MMC 2010?

  • BOD

    “No, BOD. I will not agree to disagree.”

    Well in that case Amanda, you agree to agree with me. Thank goodness for that.

    In my opinion your portrayal of the gospel is law like in the narrow strict manner that you define it. You’re not a KJV acolyte by any chance are you? Ie a person that holds that KJV is the only true bone fide English translation of the word of God? I just haven’t seen this level of tunnel vision in a biblical discussion since I last debated a person that held that stringent belief.

    “If you do not like it, your argument is with the Word and not with me.” You’re trying desperately to align your narrow interpretation with the word of God here, but as I have demonstrated previously, your position is inconsistent with the Word, as you state that repentance has no place in the Gospel, despite the fact I have shown you Jesus and Peter preached on it. And you quoted a scripture which clearly shows that repentance is part of the Gospel, ie the Good news:

    “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (Luk 24:46-47)

    “By the way, Jesus Christ did not condemn the Pharisees for their defense of the Law.”
    Yes he did. Jesus tore shreds off the Pharisees because their defense of the law was hypocritical. Though outwardly they adhered to the law, inwardly, on a heart level they did not adhere to the law (ie the spirit of the law).

    Barland, your quote: “The deluded will always attack the person and not dscuss the issue” Your own words play right back at you. :>

    Deborah, answers below:

    – Do you believe that the Church has replaced Israel? This is called Replacement theology. That South Africans are part of the lost tribes of Israel? Did you hear or see a lot of Shofar blowing going on around the camp?

    Replaced in what sense? I’m not familiar with the theology you are referring to at all. I prefer to focus on the Gospel than get fixated on a tangent like that. I did not hear or see Shofar blowing around the camp.

    – And another question, do you believe that all faiths who ‘call’ themselves Christian but are not like Mormons etc can UNIFY without changing their heretical beliefs?

    This is a strange loaded question. Mormons unify with whom? They can do what they like but I believe their heretical beliefs will hinder individuals from being restored in relationship with God, until they have heard the real Good News and have had a genuine life changing encounter with God.
    – What do you think Revival really means?
    The word Revival means different things for different people. I’d probably go with the wiki definition on this “generally refers to a specific period of increased spiritual interest or renewal in the life of a church congregation or many churches, either regionally or globally.”
    – Do you understand what Angus means when he says, “the manifestations of the sons of God is near’?
    I haven’t heard Angus preach on this, so I cannot comment on this.
    – Do you believe the Holy Spirit abides in Christians? or do you think the Holy Spirit hangs around in the atmosphere, moving amongst the crowd?
    I believe the Holy Spirit lives in the heart of every genuine Christian believer. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit also manifested outside of believers. I don’t like to pigeon hole God. The Holy Spirit does as He chooses, so I have an open mind in this area.

    God bless,

    Brett

  • Elmarie A

    Harry –

    You said:‘Every answer you have they will find a scripture to shoot you down’

    Robbie said:Sorry mate, that is the only weapon we have… Scripture… not ourselves and our man-made armour.

    Harry do you even know what this means? To have the Full Armour of God, to protect truly saved Christians against people like you? You are very good in, insulting people, that is not from God, but from Satan.

    Ephesians 6:10-12 (Amplified Bible)

    10In conclusion, be strong in the Lord [be empowered through your union with Him]; draw your strength from Him [that strength which His boundless might provides]. 11Put on God’s whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil. 12For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.

    Harry the full armor is this:(I also told you this before)Do you ever read your Bible?

    Ephesians 6:13-17
    13Therefore put on God’s complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place]. 14Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and of moral rectitude and right standing with God, 15And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the [a]firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness [b]produced by the good news] of the Gospel of peace.(B)16Lift up over all the [covering] shield of [c]saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one]. 17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit [d]wields, which is the Word of God.18Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God’s consecrated people).

    Harry you said to Robbie:
    A scripture that suits your doctrine taken out of context.

    No one here has ever taken anything out of context, only you have Harry. Stop the lies and find the real Jesus please. You are saying because we give you Bible verses that suits us it, is our doctrine taken out of context? Noooo Harry then you are saying The Bible is out of context!! That says to me you don’t believe in God but in man. Well Harry the truth is the only doctrine found is in the Word of God, and the sooner you come to repentance for your sins and declare Jesus Christ as your Saviour, then only then will you find peace in your heart.

    Harry you keep on coming back, is this because you are unsure about you being truly saved? could you have had a false conversion? I told you before your fruits show to all here you are not what you say you are.

    Harry why have you not given any Bible verse on this thread? You just utter your empty insults, that is not how a reborn Christian should speak?

    You are in our prayers Harry. It is our duty to pray for you.

    Ephesians 1:17
    [For I always pray to] the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, that He may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation [of insight into mysteries and secrets] in the [deep and intimate] knowledge of Him,

    Harry you have not read anything we have written to you why?

  • Elmarie A

    Barland Johnson

    Thank you for your words.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BOB

    Thanks for your answers:

    DTW– Do you believe that the Church has replaced Israel? This is called Replacement theology. That South Africans are part of the lost tribes of Israel? Did you hear or see a lot of Shofar blowing going on around the camp?

    BOB—–Replaced in what sense? I’m not familiar with the theology you are referring to at all. I prefer to focus on the Gospel than get fixated on a tangent like that. I did not hear or see Shofar blowing around the camp.

    DTW———-Well then you need to ask Angus about this, because this is what Angus believes and this is what his conferences are all about. And it’s very important. If you prefer to focus on the Gospel then you need to make sure Angus’s believes in the same things you do.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    DTW– And another question, do you believe that all faiths who ‘call’ themselves Christian but are not, like Mormons etc can UNIFY without changing their heretical beliefs?

    BOG—–This is a strange loaded question. Mormons unify with whom? They can do what they like but I believe their heretical beliefs will hinder individuals from being restored in relationship with God, until they have heard the real Good News and have had a genuine life changing encounter with God.

    DTW———-Far from being a loaded question BOD. This is who Angus calls Christians, even Roman Catholics are Christian as per Angus. The entire purpose of all of Angus’s escapades is to UNIFY all ‘christian’ faiths together. No need to change your faith, just turn back to God. Did you know that?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    DTW– What do you think Revival really means?

    BOB—–The word Revival means different things for different people. I’d probably go with the wiki definition on this “generally refers to a specific period of increased spiritual interest or renewal in the life of a church congregation or many churches, either regionally or globally.”

    DTW———-So you go with the social transformation change? Have you seen the Unashamedly eithcal forms Angus and friends are handing out? And that you do not have to be a Christian to belong to this ‘Christian’ organisation?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    DTW– Do you understand what Angus means when he says, “the manifestations of the sons of God is near’?

    BOD—–I haven’t heard Angus preach on this, so I cannot comment on this.

    DTW———-Well then I would suggest you go and find out what he means by this. He has said it publically 3 times, probably more. I thought you have listened to Angus preach?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    DTW– Do you believe the Holy Spirit abides in Christians? or do you think the Holy Spirit hangs around in the atmosphere, moving amongst the crowd?

    BOB—–I believe the Holy Spirit lives in the heart of every genuine Christian believer. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit also manifested outside of believers. I don’t like to pigeon hole God. The Holy Spirit does as He chooses, so I have an open mind in this area.

    DTW———-Pentecost was a once off situation to equip the Apostles for the task that lay ahead of them. Once Jesus was ressurected He told the disciples that His Father would send then the Holy Spirit, as a councellor, teacher, comforter, etc, who would abide in all truly saved born again Christians. If you don’t like to pideon hole God, would you say that you would not ‘pigeon hole’ the Bible either and say that the Bible is not the final authority on all matters?

    What else do you have an open mind about??

    And lastly Amanda is not legalist in any way. She is 100% correct in what she said. You need to REREAD what she has said because you are taking her so out of context it’s not even funny.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    I think you need to reword your comments into easier language so that BOB will understand what you are saying. I had no idea you were obsessed with the KJV and that that was considered to be legalistic.

    Goodness, that means no one can read any bible at all, because they are all translations from the KJV…hmmmmm. I wonder what would happen if one day (oh wait it’s happening already) that it becomes illegal-istic to read the bible (no matter what the translation).

    Get Rob Bell’s Revised KJV – A page in the front to write your name, 1 page to mention the books of the bible, plus the Gnostic’s books and 20 other dead sea scrolls along with William Branham’s stuff that he wanted included in the Bible back in the 1950’s. And then page 3 and 4 will contain maps and stuff and then the last page will be a page for notes – as you sit in silence waiting to hear from God and then you can write your own bible – directly inspired.

  • Robbie

    Elmarie..
    Thanks for covering my back….lol

    Harry… you have so much scripture and truth now.. free yet?

  • Amanda

    BOD

    I will not agree that it is okay for you to preach your own gospel-non-gospel here without being corrected.

    In 1 Cor 15 Paul defines the Gospel:

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (1Co 15:1-5)

    Paul got this Gospel directly from Jesus Christ:

    But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)

    The Apostles in Jerusalem approved of Paul’s Gospel.

    Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. (Gal 2:1-9)

    Paul was stubborn about the Gospel that he preached:

    I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:6-9)

    BOD, you said:

    And you quoted a scripture which clearly shows that repentance is part of the Gospel, ie the Good news

    No, it does not. 1Co 15:1-5 defines the Gospel. Luk 24:46-47 is Jesus Christ’s instruction to the church. You said:

    He [Angus Buchan] preaches the full Gospel, ie repentance for sin.

    Repentance is not the Gospel.

    You said:

    You’ve demonstrated strict conformity to a narrow legalistic definition of the gospel. It comes across as a Pharisee like defense of OT law.

    I said:

    “By the way, Jesus Christ did not condemn the Pharisees for their defense of the Law.”

    Why would He if He Himself said:

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:17-20)

    Now you say:

    Yes he did. Jesus tore shreds off the Pharisees because their defense of the law was hypocritical.

    Now I have lost the plot. Are you saying that the defense of the Gospel is okay, but not in my case because I am hypocritical? I am sorry, I don’t understand. Maybe you can benefit from reading Todd Wilken’s Playing the Pharisee Card before you try that one again.

    You said:

    I just haven’t seen this level of tunnel vision in a biblical discussion since I last debated a person that held that stringent belief.

    Then maybe you have not read Paul or Fox’s Book of Stubborn, Blinkered Pharisees.

  • Amanda

    Deborah

    Get Rob Bell’s Revised KJV

    It will have to have a page or two for Rob Bell’s gospel. When asked “How would you present this gospel on Twitter?” he said:

    I would say that history is headed somewhere. The thousands of little ways in which you are tempted to believe that hope might actually be a legitimate response to the insanity of the world actually can be trusted. And the Christian story is that a tomb is empty, and a movement has actually begun that has been present in a sense all along in creation. And all those times when your cynicism was at odds with an impulse within you that said that this little thing might be about something bigger—those tiny little slivers may in fact be connected to something really, really big.

    Unless he goes for the shorter Nooma version: “You are the gospel!| And it will need a couple of chapters for Bell’s resurrection bringing a new physicality.

    BOD—–I haven’t heard Angus preach on this, so I cannot comment on this.

    See Stand Up and be Counted – Might Men Conference 2010

  • Amanda

    BOD said:

    He [Angus Buchan] preaches the full Gospel, ie repentance for sin.

    Dr. Dion Forster said of MMC 2010:

    Rather, it was a simple challenge to men to work for social transformation, racial reconciliation, responsibility in their families.

    This is not Christianity.

    And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Th 2:6-12)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> Dr. Dion Forster said of MMC 2010:

    Rather, it was a simple challenge to men to work for social transformation, racial reconciliation, responsibility in their families.

    ChristianBoer

    Do you agree with this article?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    Get Rob Bell’s Revised KJV

    It will have to have a page or two for Rob Bell’s gospel. When asked “How would you present this gospel on Twitter?” he said:

    I would say that history is headed somewhere. The thousands of little ways in which you are tempted to believe that hope might actually be a legitimate response to the insanity of the world actually can be trusted. And the Christian story is that a tomb is empty, and a movement has actually begun that has been present in a sense all along in creation. And all those times when your cynicism was at odds with an impulse within you that said that this little thing might be about something bigger—those tiny little slivers may in fact be connected to something really, really big.

    Unless he goes for the shorter Nooma version: “You are the gospel!| And it will need a couple of chapters for Bell’s resurrection bringing a new physicality.

    Ok, so we are looking at at least another 3 pages. 8 in total excluding the cover.

  • Grant C

    Amanda

    In the light of the proportions this discussion has attained on this blog (and other blogs), the following small detail seems relatively insignificant, but relevant.

    This, from a piece submitted on another blog (which you spotted earlier). The author rightly so, refers to a newspaper article regarding Oupa Angus, his signature head-gear fashion of choice and his habit of preaching with it on. I thought this might provide an added flavour, not that the issue needs any more than Angus and his dominionist followers have already given it.

    1 Corinthians 11: 4

    King James Bible
    Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

    GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    Every man who covers his head when he prays or speaks what God has revealed dishonors the one who has authority over him.

    Does Angus do this:
    1) as a sign of defiance to the purity of the Word or,
    2) not realizing his error in judgement or,
    3) determining that this rule does not apply to his brand of faith or,
    4) for medical reasons or,
    5) there are no trees left in the huge clearing he made on his farm or,
    6) out of forgetfulness or,
    7) removing it at certain times accentuating the correct moment

    Triviality or noteworthy? Apologies if this seems to belittle the old man. Not my intention.

    Like a rhinestone cowboy…

  • Amanda

    BOD, Harry and all the mighty men

    I think you are used to chewing on stones and that you do not know what the Bread of Life tastes like. Dr. Dion Forster said about MMC 2010:

    Rather, it was a simple challenge to men to work for social transformation, racial reconciliation, responsibility in their families.

    Before you fall prey to the wisdom of Dr. Dion’s ‘simple’ challenge, I challenge you to find true Bread, taste it and then re-consider your defense of stones. Read this A Sermon Preached by the Rev. Ron Hodel at the Installation of Pastor Jeremy Rhode on Sunday June 23, 2007 [extract].

    But God does more by the foolishness of preaching Christ than the world has ever accomplished with all its wisdom. In God’s gracious, good pleasure He took the last thing anyone would ever expect Him to take, (an old rugged cross and RH typeable blood) and used it to forgive us of all of our sin! And in doing this, God made a joke out of the arrogant wisdom of the wise of this world.

    Think of it! A simple missionary or a Pastor tells the story of the incarnation and the voluntary suffering and death of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin – and that changes the heart of hearers in a way that none of the wisdom of the world ever could do.

    • It saves them,

    • it reconciles them to God,

    • it causes them to be adopted as children of the heavenly Father…

    • in a word, it justifies them before God for Jesus’ sake.

    • It succeeds in making rebels believe what this story says.

    Foolishness, don’t you think? As Luther said in one of his Christmas sermons, Why if I have been God, I wouldn’t have done it that way! I would have just taken the devil and twisted his nose and said, Let my people go! And that makes sense.

    Preach sermons that point people to practical things.

    • Things they have control over.

    • Things where they can see their own progress.

    • Sermons that deal with problems only rich Americans seem to have.

    • Bits of fabulous advise for maintaining health, finding a purpose and increasing wealth.

    • Bits of wisdom for those — who plan never to die.

    But those aren’t sermons. I don’t know what they are, but they’re not sermons.

    • A sermon is about the depth of your sin and mine.

    • A sermon is about Christ’s atoning blood freely given to redeem you and me from that sin.

    • A sermon is about Jesus as the only merit we have and that that merit of Jesus is freely and fully reckoned to our account.

    You can find Pastor Hodel and Pastor Rhode’s sermons here. Listen to a few of them.

    Try Rev. William Cwirla’s The Cure Looks Like the Disease[extract]:

    Like the Israelites in the wilderness, humanity is “snake-bitten.” It happened in the Garden when the shrewd and subtle serpent tempted Eve and injected the poison of his lie. The lie that God is not true to His Word. The lie that God doesn’t mean what He says. The lie that we can be gods in place of God, that we can experience good and evil on our own terms, that we can reach into the middle and be masters of our own destiny. The lie that we can disobey God and we won’t die as a result. Eve bit, Adam bit. The serpent bit and his deadly poison invaded our humanity leaving no part undamaged. Humanity died that day. They were dead to God and to each other – hiding, ashamed, blaming, self-justifying. The poison not only invaded them, it was passed on to their children. Every son and daughter is infected with the serpent’s venom. No generation is skipped. Not you. Each of us is born with the poison coursing through our humanity. The apostle Paul says, “You were dead in trespasses and sin.” Not sick, not weak, not troubled, not struggling or even hanging on for dear life. Snake-bitten dead.

    How do you cure a deadly case of snake bite? You don’t put a band aid on it and say, “Think positive thoughts and try really hard to get better.” You don’t say, “Pray this prayer for the snakebitten, and all will be well.” You need a shot of anti-serum. Anti-serum comes from one who has been exposed to the poison and survived. God made Jesus the sinless Son to be sin for you. He became your sin, so that in Him you might become the righteousness of God. He was cursed with the curse against your sin; He was damned for you. He was exposed to our sin and death. Jesus took the full hit for us, the wrath of God, the temptations of the devil, the judgment of the Law. He went down to our grave, and He rose from the dead. He conquered our death in His Death. He is the anti-serum of Death. Like the bronze serpent on the pole, all who believe in Him are healed of death and have eternal life.

    An extract from another sermon by Rev. Cwirla: Justified by Grace through Faith

    That brings us to the Jesus point, which is also the justification point. Jesus has redeemed you from slavery to sin. If the Son sets you free, you truly are free. He redeemed you not with gold or silver or money, but with His holy, precious Blood and with His innocent suffering and death. He was made your sin, though He Himself knew no sin. He was baptized into your sin and death. He drank the cup of God’s wrath poured out on you. He became you under the Law; He became all humanity under the Law, to bear our sin and also to be our righteousness.

    Jesus is perfect humanity under the Law. He fears, loves, trusts in God above all things. He rightly honors God’s name and Word. He is the obedient Son of His Father and His mother. He helps and befriends His neighbor; He is sexually pure, chaste, and holy. He does not steal, lie, gossip, slander or covet anything. He is perfect Man under the Law, and that perfection is yours by grace through faith all for Jesus’ sake.

    He was made your sin. He is condemned humanity, one huge rebellious Man, covered with your sin. He is the drunkard, the adulterer, the murderer, the thief, the liar. He is damned with our damnation, cursed with the curse of the Law, receiving in His own body what you and I deserved. But He gets it instead. He does justice to our sins in two ways: He keeps the Law for us where we could not; and He dies under the Law for us as we deserve to die. This is the “righteousness of God” that brought hope and joy to Luther and the reformers. Not the righteousness of God under the Law by which we are judged and found wanting, but the righteousness of God under the Gospel who justifies the sinner for Jesus’ sake.

    More Cwirla sermons here.

    Once you have done that, we can discuss Oom Angus’ sermon from the 2010 Turn to God Conference.

    Anyone up to the challenge?

  • Amanda

    Grant

    His 400 000 new best friends plus handlers will not correct him. If he should start preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified for sinners, then I shall give him your note and a donation of sunblock.

  • Robbie

    There once was an Emperor who wore invisible clothes. He told all 400 000 of his men that he was going to parade in his new clothes and that ONLY the “intelligent amongst the men” will be able to see his clothes.

    Nobody wanted to be branded as dumb or stupid so 400 000 admirably cheered the Emperor as he paraded naked in front of everyone.

    … I dunno. the story just came up.

  • Robbie

    Strange that “His 400 000 new best friends plus handlers will not correct him” (I am still with the Emperor)

    I mean…There is the poor guy parading in front of the world in – what he thinks is a tuxedo!! and all the sheep follow… one behind the other?

  • Harry

    As I said I feel the love ooooozzzzzingggggggggggggggggg from your comments. You are nothing but a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites, the kind my Saviour called white washed graves who go and find a convert and making him worse than themselves. This is in the word by the way. As I keep on asking, What have you done for the kingdom that will withstand the test of fire to come? This is also in the word. Please put in my whole comment and not only the parts that you can knock with your ridiculous doctrine that send more people to hell than save them.

  • Amanda

    Robbie

    Because Oom Angus is the best South Africa has to offer. People are starving for the Word of God now that the Purpose Driven and Emergent churches have found something else to preach. At least Oom Angus can work a crowd and get the men to believe that the Kingdom of God is being established by their efforts.

  • BOD

    The Kingdom of God will not be established through the efforts of those who seek to knock and diminish Godly men. It will be established through the efforts of Godly men and women who have a love for Jesus and are passionate to spread His Good News to others. The Apostles showed us that human effort is required to establish the Kingdom of God. They demonstrated this through toil, perseverence, long suffering, not out of a works mentality to boast of, but out of a love for Jesus and a burden on their hearts to partner with the Lord and spread the Good news.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BOD

    >> The Kingdom of God will not be established through the efforts of those who seek to knock and diminish Godly men.

    Not sure what kingdom you are speaking about because the Bible says:

    Luke 17:20-21 (Amplified Bible)

    20 Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He replied to them by saying, The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed or with visible display,
    21 Nor will people say, Look! Here [it is]! or, See, [it is] there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you [in your hearts] and among you [surrounding you].

    Therefore John 3:5-7 (Amplified Bible)

    5 Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.
    6 What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not [do not be surprised, astonished] at My telling you, You must all be born anew (from above).

    So BOB, Jesus Christ IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD in ever BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN. Where is Jesus Christ in your life, if you seek to create the kingdom of God on the outside you? Do you not understand that a man made kingdom of god is impossible and that you seek to do is unbiblical. Jesus Christ will rapture those born again, in which the earth is left in the hands of THE anti-Christ who wants to create his kingdom on earth because he can’t create his kingdom elsewhere – this is the one you are currently helping create (unbeknown to you I hope?)

    Would you like to be born again?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry.

    HERE IS A COMMENT MADE MY YOU HERE IN A NICE BIG BLOCK FOR YOU TOO:

    Hi Bod
    You are wasting your time!
    These self-righteous Pharisees feel they are the sheriff of the church.
    Move on and let them be judged for doing nothing but criticise the people who are prepared to get their hands dirty and seek the lost, sick, rejected and poor.
    Every answer you have they will find a scripture to shoot you down. Some advice to you lot when you find a truth balance it with a scripture that might not fit your theology and then you will see the real meaning of the scriptures you take out of context. What amazes me is how you have perfected the way you accuse me of not “walking in love” yet you are sarcastic and self-righteous.

    >> You said: Every answer you have they will find a scripture to shoot you down

    YOUR LATEST FULL COMMENT IN A NICE BIG BLOCK FOR YOU:

    As I said I feel the love ooooozzzzzingggggggggggggggggg from your comments. You are nothing but a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites, the kind my Saviour called white washed graves who go and find a convert and making him worse than themselves. This is in the word by the way. As I keep on asking, What have you done for the kingdom that will withstand the test of fire to come? This is also in the word. Please put in my whole comment and not only the parts that you can knock with your ridiculous doctrine that send more people to hell than save them.

    Now we know you hate it when we quote scripture, SO I WILL CARRY ON QUOTING SCRIPTURE JUST FOR YOU, BECAUSE THE WORD OF GOD SAVES.

    Hebrews 4:12
    12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    AND IF YOU DESPISE THE WORD OF GOD YOU DENY JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD

    John 1:14
    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    >> As I said I feel the love ooooozzzzzingggggggggggggggggg from your comments. You are nothing but a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites, the kind my Saviour called white washed graves who go and find a convert and making him worse than themselves

    >> As I keep on asking, What have you done for the kingdom that will withstand the test of fire to come?

    FIRSTLY

    Your kingdom in earth. My kingdom is Jesus Christ who lives in every Born again Christian – A true born again Christian is the Kingdom of God. But you can carry on making your man made kingdom on earth.

    Luke 17:20-21
    “Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, “Look, here it is! or There!” for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

    John 18:36

    My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

    TO PEOPLE WHO BOAST WHEN THEY HAVE NOTHING AND CAN PROVE NOTHING. GOD WILL BRING YOUR SECRETS OUT FROM THE DARKNESS FOR ALL TO SEE. YOU ARE PUFFED UP AND THINK YOU ARE RICH AND A KING – WHEN YOU AND THE MEN YOU PRAISE ARE NOTHING AND HAVE NOTHING AND DESPISE THE WORD OF GOD THAT SAVES SOULS.

    1 Corinthians 4:1-5

    1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

    6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
    8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us—and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.

    >> Please put in my whole comment and not only the parts that you can knock with your ridiculous doctrine that send more people to hell than save them.

    TO THOSE WHOM THINK WE CONDEMN TO HELL. IF THAT IS SO WHY DO WE ASK YOU TO FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST AND READ THE WORD OF GOD INSTEAD OF FOLLOW MEN LIKE ANGUS – MEN WHO FOLLOW THE COSMIC ANTI-CHRIST INSTEAD OF JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD. Have you read ALL the articles on Angus Buchan, Dion Forster and Graham Power Harry?

    Romans 10:17

    17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    2 Timothy 3:15

    15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    JESUS (THE WORD OF GOD MADE FLESH) PROTECTS ME AGAINST PEOPLE WHO DESPISE THE WORD OF GOD.

    Ephesians 6:10-20

    10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
    14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

    WHICH KINGDOM TO YOU BELONG TO HARRY? A WORLDLY KINGDOM or the KINGDOM OF GOD THAT SHOULD BE INSIDE OF YOU BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELLS INSIDE YOU? THAT WHEN JESUS COMES TO TAKE HOME HIS CHILDREN YOU GO WITH HIM AND ARE NOT LEFT BEHIND ON HIS EARTH YOU LOVED MORE THAN JESUS CHRIST.

    Harry do you believe in this man’s god? (This is the same god Angus believes in): ‘The Cosmic Christ’ < -- http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/17/dion-forster-and-the-drive-by-rebuking-video/

    I think you need to go sit down, and have a good look at who you are really following. Make sure it’s the right Christ Harry, you might even up in hell for making the wrong decision.

  • Amanda

    Harry

    I will not lift a finger to help establish the kingdom of the Manifest Sons of god, Joel’s Army, the dominionists, the emergents, the New Age, Maitreya and Dr. Dion Forster’s cosmic christ. In order for them to be successful, all they have to do is to make you believe that it is up to you, and it is not.

    Did you see what BOD did? He said:

    He [Angus Buchan] preaches the full Gospel, ie repentance for sin.

    If you believe that repentance is the Gospel, then you will fall prey to these men telling you what to repent of and what works to do.

    According to Dr. Dion Forster, who “serves as a consultant and spiritual adviser / Chaplain to the Global Day of Prayer and Unashamedly Ethical movements and their founder, Graham Power”, Oom Angus sent you out with a ‘simple’ challenge:

    Rather, it was a simple challenge to men to work for social transformation, racial reconciliation, responsibility in their families.

    Dr. Dion reported on Oom Angus’ teaching at the Cape Town for Jesus event:

    The first part of his message encouraged South Africans to start taking responsibility for the nation, and to start making a really positive contribution towards transformation and renewal in society (which includes elements such as racial reconciliation, shifting the wealth of the nation, and of course also standing against crime and corruption). The second part of his message encouraged men to live responsibility in their family lives and work lives.

    Those are just some of the ‘elements’ for establishing the kingdom on earth. They bind you with their laws and fool you into believing that it is Christian! Beware!

    For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. (2Co 11:4)

    And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. (2Co 11:12-15)

    For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face. To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that! …(2Co 11:20-21)

    Jesus Christ said that His Kingdom is NOT of this world:

    Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (Joh 18:36)

    And He told the church what they ought to teach:

    “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (Luk 24:46-47)

    Harry, why do you want us to boast? Proclaiming our deeds will not save anybody. That is why we proclaim Jesus Christ’s deeds. So if you want us to boast, I shall boast about this:

    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Rom 3:21-28)

    Harry, you said:

    Please put in my whole comment and not only the parts that you can knock with your ridiculous doctrine that send more people to hell than save them.

    Is that the real stumbling block for you, that those without faith will go to hell? Would you rather that all who help establish the kingdom through good deeds inherit the kingdom?

  • Elmarie A

    Amanda

    I eco your words to Harry.

  • Amanda

    DTW

    BOD is indeed speaking about a kingdom here on earth and the gospel, which he preaches, is their gospel. Look at all the work they have to do in order to establish their kingdom! That god is helpless without them.

    Our God is independent of our effort. If we refuse to proclaim Him, the stones will cry out:

    And as he rode along, they spread their cloaks on the road. As he was drawing near–already on the way down the Mount of Olives–the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.” (Luk 19:36-40)

  • Elmarie A

    Amanda

    Harry

    I will not lift a finger to help establish the kingdom of the Manifest Sons of god, Joel’s Army, the dominionists, the emergents, the New Age, Maitreya and Dr. Dion Forster’s cosmic christ. In order for them to be successful, all they have to do is to make you believe that it is up to you, and it is not.

    I eco your words again, when will people like Harry realize they seem lost and time is getting shorter. I have noted Harry made 7 comments and quoted only one Scripture twice the Scripture Romans 8:22 and is this not the most loved Scripture that they use out of context and connect it to the Joel’s Army and all the others to justify themselves for the Purpose Driven life , Kingdom Now Theology.

    On April 18th, 2010 at 7:52 pm Harry said it will be his last comment and since then Harry has been back 3 times and this could be good news, as It seems Harry is worried about something. I truly hope and pray Harry finds the real Jesus.

    Why is it Harry thinks that by us all giving him Scripture, it is ridiculous doctrines? Harry seems to then think the Word if God is ridiculous. That is so sad you know.

  • Amanda

    Elmarie

    Yes. Maybe Harry has been taught that Christianity is about what we do and not about what Jesus Christ has done for us. Maybe he cannot get himself to believe that the Good News is really as good as we claim it to be. Maybe he thinks it is prudent to buy some insurance through good works, just in case Jesus Christ did not quite pull it off for us. Until he is willing to compare to Scripture the outrageous demands made by the Dion Forsters, he will remain enslaved to men and the world. The day that he loves Jesus Christ more than Oom Angus, we will celebrate with him.

  • BOD

    Hello Deborah,

    Your quote:

    “Do you not understand that a man made kingdom of god is impossible and that you seek to do is unbiblical. Jesus Christ will rapture those born again, in which the earth is left in the hands of THE anti-Christ who wants to create his kingdom on earth because he can’t create his kingdom elsewhere – this is the one you are currently helping create (unbeknown to you I hope?)”

    Why are you so quick to accuse others of serving the anti-christ?

    Why do you twist my words and paint them as unbiblical?

    I have stated that human effort is required to establish the Kingdom of God, ie Christ loving people partnering with God to love others and spread the Good News. This is achieved through Christ living in their hearts! I have presented the model of the Apostles who worked hard, persevered, out of a love for Christ and others, to spread the Good News. Many of them gave their lives for this. Through their toil and the Grace of Lord Jesus, lives were transformed and the Kingdom of God did come into the hearts of men and women.

    We are called by Jesus to be a light unto the world.

    Matthew 5:14-16 (New International Version)

    14″You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

    How do you reconcile your biblical view with the Parable of the Talents? Matthew 25:14-30
    Would you rather we bury the talent, as it is taboo to serve God with our effort?

    How about the Parable of the fig tree, Luke 13: 6-9?

    We are called to serve God!

    God bless you,

    Brett

  • Elmarie A

    Amanda

    it is so so sad indeed. But again God gave us all a perfect mind, that should be used to His glory. When one don’t want to use what God gave us, we must then sadly suffer the consequences. The Holy spirit within us guides us to the truth, and if we grieve Him we are surely in great danger.

    John 12:40
    “He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”

    Ephesians 4:30
    And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God’s own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin)

  • Harry

    [EDITED by DTW: Harry, please stop commenting with your insults, you are really wasting our time – please go speak to Angus as too why you are struggling to be ‘ethical’ and can’t understand what the bible says].

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BOD

    >> I have stated that human effort is required to establish the Kingdom of God, ie Christ loving people partnering with God to love others and spread the Good News

    “WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY ‘ESTABLISH THE KINGDOM OF GOD?” YOU CAN’T DO THAT! THE HOLY SPIRIT IS HERE ALREADY!!
    “CHRIST LOVING PEOPLE PARTNERING WITH GOD?” UM… this is not time share BOD. You don’t partner with God. You are either for HIM, or against HIM – you either FOLLOW THE CORRECT GOSPEL or you DON’T and you PERISH ETERNALLY.

    You either HAVE JESUS IN YOUR HEART FOR HE IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND THE MESSAGE (JESUS CHRIST) IS THE WORD YOU PREACH THAT SAVES SOULS FOR YOUR TREASURE IS IN THE AFTERLIFE NOT ON EARTH – OR IN YOUR CASE YOU BUILD YOUR KINGDOM HERE ON EARTH WHICH BELONGS TO SATAN.

    It’s not rocket science BOD.

    Please go find yourself a ‘Kingdom Building on earth’ website where your unbiblical views will be accepted with open arms. Here we preach the truth. If you don’t like it, then honestly…go follow the god of this world instead. There is so much information on this website to explain the truth – don’t ever say no one told you.

  • Eric

    Remember that a Prophet gets no honor in her/his own land.

    Remember that indeed in the end days there will be many false teachers and prophets as is said and is being observed.

    Keep up your great work, Truth must always be spoken. I am glad you listened to The Holy Spirit because none can find fault with it. When you had the “nagging” in your heart you knew what you saw and heard. They are mesmerized by a man but not by The Holy Spirit ? They come in their numbers to hear false prophets and teachers, to see the miracles they perform and yet they claim to be in Christ ?

    Surely if you are a true follower you will get instruction from The Holy Spirit ? God will guide your way not a mere mortal ?

    Anyway keep up your great work, Jesus is coming.

  • Burning Lamp

    Talk about a TRAVESTY!! Angus speaking at an event honoring Andrew Murray?

    Please pray for me this weekend as I go to Worcester to speak at the 150 year anniversary celebrations of the Andrew Murray revival. I will be speaking at 3.30 Saturday afternoon. I would really covet your prayers and if you can come, it would obviously be wonderful to have you there to support us.

    Yours in Christ’s service
    Angus & Jill and the Shalom team

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp

    I have an even bigger travesty to post. I wanted to do it last night but didn’t get around to it.

  • cecilia

    Seen that it has been posted in a public magazine, I want to quote a letter in the Huisgenoot, May 13 2010 –

    “BEKEERDE MAN?

    My man was ook vanjaar by Angus Buchan se Mighty Men-konferensie.

    Ek verwag toe Sondag om ‘n nuwe man terug te verwelkom, een wat sy vrou weer gaan raak sien, sy naastes met respek gaan behandel en so sal leef dat die kinders hom sal respekteer.

    Maar die man wat terugkom van ‘n Christen-mannekamp, verskree eers sy 15-jarige seun en daarna kry sy vrou raas omdat sy die kinders verdedig. En toe word ons vertel hy is die hoof van die huis. Net hy besluit en ons sal na hom luister.

    Ek slaap nie die Sondagnag nie. Met oë dik gehuil, gaan ek Maandag werk. My man groet nie, klim net in sy kar en ry.

    Ek begin my klere pak en bel ‘n vriendin vir blyplek. Sy paai en sê ek moenie sulke besluite neem as ek omgekrap is nie. Ek besluit om te bly.

    My man dink nie hy het enigiets verkeerds gedoen nie. Hoe word byna 400 000 mans mak soos lammetjies en myne word die duiwel self? – Anti-Mighty Men, Durban”

    So we can see even from an unknown writer, that all’s not well at the MMC!

  • Harry

    Hi please explain this to me. This weekend I went to the Helen Joseph hospital to pray and minister to people.

    God healed a Muslim man who in his own words was “in excruciating pain” because of a pinched nerve. After laying hands on him in the name of Jesus, in an instant he sat up touching his toes.

    So what do you call me, a false healer, someone that teaches false doctrine or someone who does what Jesus commanded us to do?
    Please do not edit this but post it on your site, I would like to see you and your critical friend’s comments. My shoulders are big i can handle criticism.

    I am sure you will criticize me for using the I word, I had to use the I word as I am the one who went but I went in the name of my God and Saviour Jesus Christ. (Usually people who do nothing for the Kingdom hate it when people who are active in furthering the Kingdom use it.)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    Did the Muslim man come to accept Jesus Christ as his saviour? It not, what was the point of you unpinching his pinched nerve?

    >> (Usually people who do nothing for the Kingdom hate it when people who are active in furthering the Kingdom use it.)

    Yeah, I can really see what you mean.

  • Elmarie A

    Harry

    Did your hands heal this Muslim man?

  • Elmarie A

    Harry
    April 24th, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    As I said I feel the love ooooozzzzzingggggggggggggggggg from your comments. You are nothing but a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites, the kind my Saviour called white washed graves who go and find a convert and making him worse than themselves. This is in the word by the way. As I keep on asking, What have you done for the kingdom that will withstand the test of fire to come? This is also in the word. Please put in my whole comment and not only the parts that you can knock with your ridiculous doctrine that send more people to hell than save them.

    I do hope you leave the insults alone this time!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Oh my word it is the same Harry as before… well spotted Elmarie.

  • Elmarie A

    Harry

    You must still answer allot of other questions here before we move to the latest. Please page up and have a look start answering. Harry why are you back here? to tell us about your healing powers?

    I don’t think we should even touch your latest comment placed May 16th, 2010 at 7:38 pm before you answered our other questions.

    Naaaaah Harry it just struck me you are here to boast!!!!That is not Scriptural is it??

    These are all your comments and I think you are here to cause division and boast again Harry.

    Harry
    April 7th, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Hi Mister no-all.
    Please tell me what you have done for the Gospel?
    You sit in your little armchair with your big ego and judge the world. You are probably some idiot “Theologian’ who are nothing more than the same thing as the Lawyer or Scribe mentioned in the Gospels who try and give their own interpretation of what is actually being said. You are probably also a Calvinists who follow a Theology written by a mass murderer who had to preach his drivel so he could convince himself that he cannot be lost.( A man who believed in infant baptism, now that is heresy).
    The sad thing is that he is taking millions of people with him.
    I would much rather follow my Lord who gave us the great commission. If I may say as Paul did I probably sound like an idiot as I have to say I, (a supporter of Angus who has done more for the Gospel than all you and your computer faultfinders will ever do), reach out by myself to the poor and sick. I have had people healed by the laying on of my hands by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS STILL HERE TO HEAL AND SAVE. Why would Jesus say go and preach the Gospel heal the sick…… if He has stopped healing the sick than He must stop saving the lost as well? These were all part of the great commission. So take your theology and flush it down the toilet and do something for the Kingdom that will stand on the day of Judgement.
    Of course as you preach and reach out you get to deal with people that you do not agree with 100%.
    But if we have to stop preaching and reaching out we will become like you who does nothing but criticize and whose opinion is nothing but hot air.
    Thanks you but I would rather be a humble man like Angus who preaches repentance and holiness.
    Harry Coetsee
    South Africa.
    On my way to MMC 2010.
    Thank you Jesus.
    __________________________________________________________
    Harry
    April 7th, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    As i said I am sorry I had to use I, the same as Paul did not want to use I, but had to when he wanted to show some braggarts that they had to get of their self-crated thrones. Obviously you can’t read as I said THE HEALING WAS BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, I had nothing to do with it I am only a vessel that seek to do God’s will. The same as when I lead someone to Jesus by BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT I have nothing to do with it. I cannot heal a fly or save a sole, only My Father can do it by BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. I am only a willing servant that chooses to do the work instead of sitting on the side-line criticising the one who are prepared to get the job done. What amazes me is that you guys can say and insult as much as you like but can’t handle it when you get it back.
    Dear Elmarie and Cecilia: Sorry to have to tell you this Philip was not an apostle and he led the Ethiopian to the Lord. So was he not supposed to do that because he was not one of the twelve? When the Holy Spirit was poured out was it only on the 12 or the 120? This can go on and on but if you deny the power of the Gospel you are deceiving yourself, I suppose that why you have to sit on your little throne and judge the once who are doing the work.
    Angus does not preach a prosperity Gospel he preaches a simple message that simple people like me can understand. I am sorry if it is to simple a message for your mind that has been polluted by theologians who make it impossible for simple folk to understand. You see if a illiterate person cannot understand the Gospel then it is worthless as Paul said God uses the simple to bring the wise to nought, or confound the wise.(Not bad for a guy who knows this without reading much as Deborah said)
    Elmarie sorry to tell you this but you come over sarcastic as shown in your comment about the nurses. I am only saying this as it seems you think you walk in perfect love and need to pray for me. Thanks for your prayer please pray that I become more like Jesus and do the works He did and dare I say do even greater works than Him. By the way Jesus said that not me.
    ____________________________________________________________
    Harry
    April 18th, 2010 at 7:52 pm

    Hi Harry is back.
    I have just come back from MMC2010. Great to see thousands of men promising to be the watchmen of their families!!!! Thank you my Jesus for putting one man in our country who look for a solution instead of trying to get us to sit and feel sorry for ourselves and judge and condemn the people who strife to make a difference.
    I see you are a few people who sit and criticise Angus.
    What qualifies you to do what you do?
    I can feel the love of Jesus oozing from the pages.(Ha,Ha)
    Examine your hearts and motives.
    Please let me know how many people you have brought to the feet of Jesus?
    How many poor people have you helped?
    BY YOUR FRUITS YOU WILL BE KNOWN.
    Please look at your face in the mirror and realize you are not the sheriff of the church.
    By the way neither Angus nor I hold is part of the Kingdom now bunch. The word states clearly in Romans 8:22 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Just because Angus used this scripture publicity does not make him one of them.
    Get a life and do something positive for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ
    Hi Harry is back.
    I have just come back from MMC2010. Great to see thousands of men promising to be the watchmen of their families!!!! Thank you my Jesus for putting one man in our country who look for a solution instead of trying to get us to sit and feel sorry for ourselves and judge and condemn the people who strife to make a difference.
    I see you are a few people who sit and criticise Angus.
    What qualifies you to do what you do?
    I can feel the love of Jesus oozing from the pages.(Ha,Ha)
    Examine your hearts and motives.
    Please let me know how many people you have brought to the feet of Jesus?
    How many poor people have you helped?
    BY YOUR FRUITS YOU WILL BE KNOWN.
    Please look at your face in the mirror and realize you are not the sheriff of the church.
    By the way neither Angus nor I hold is part of the Kingdom now bunch. The word states clearly in Romans 8:22 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Just because Angus used this scripture publicity does not make him one of them.
    Get a life and do something positive for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ
    Get a life and do something positive for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ
    This will be my last comment. Please blow up your computers and do something for God that will stand the test of fire. Remember you will be judged for every word you say.
    This is for Bod, Bod please do not waste your time with these bitter Pharisees!

    I hope you are brave enough to publish this on your demonic site. (It is easy to throw names around, calling Angus a demon)
    ____________________________________________________________
    Harry
    April 20th, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Hi Bod
    You are wasting your time!
    These self-righteous Pharisees feel they are the sheriff of the church.
    Move on and let them be judged for doing nothing but criticise the people who are prepared to get their hands dirty and seek the lost, sick, rejected and poor.
    Every answer you have they will find a scripture to shoot you down. Some advice to you lot when you find a truth balance it with a scripture that might not fit your theology and then you will see the real meaning of the scriptures you take out of context. What amazes me is how you have perfected the way you accuse me of not “walking in love” yet you are sarcastic and self-righteous.

    _____________________________________________________
    Harry
    April 26th, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    [EDITED by DTW: Harry, please stop commenting with your insults, you are really wasting our time – please go speak to Angus as too why you are struggling to be ‘ethical’ and can’t understand what the bible says].

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Yikes yes Harry is here to boast and we have taken note!!! Harry!!!

  • Harry

    I will leave you guys in your own hole.
    Jesus said: If the light you think you have is darkness…………….
    Just remember that the Pharisees were criticising Jesus for the miracles he did and he said they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
    Be careful when you judge when other people do the works commanded by Jesus, you might be blaspheming the Holy Spirit…this is unpardonable…
    I have never claimed to do anything myself…Jesus said ……those who believe will speak in tongues…..will lay hands on the sick and they will recover……maybe each you should ask yourselves this question: do I really believe?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    I will leave you guys in your own hole.
    Jesus said: If the light you think you have is darkness…………….
    Just remember that the Pharisees were criticising Jesus for the miracles he did and he said they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
    Be careful when you judge when other people do the works commanded by Jesus, you might be blaspheming the Holy Spirit…this is unpardonable…
    I have never claimed to do anything myself…Jesus said ……those who believe will speak in tongues…..will lay hands on the sick and they will recover……maybe each you should ask yourselves this question: do I really believe?

    Ja ja Harry… run along now.

  • Elmarie A

    Harry

    Your persistence in not wanting to answer any of our questions says allot about you. Your Comment on April 26th, 2010 at 6:08 pm had to be removed it was so insulting.

    Harry I pray you find Jesus in your life who Commanded us to love the Lord our God with our whole body, soul en mind the most important command and the second most important is to love our neighbor as thy self. You have not shown love toward any one here Harry.

    Mark 12:29-31 (Amplified Bible)

    29Jesus answered, The first and principal one of all commands is: Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord;

    30And you shall love the Lord your God [a]out of and with your whole heart and out of and with all your soul (your [b]life) and out of and with all your mind (with [c]your faculty of thought and your moral understanding) and out of and with all your strength. [d]This is the first and principal commandment.(A)

    31The second is like it and is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.(B

    You have come here to cause division and strife and you could not get it right.

    You have been very insulting towards us all here.

    Romans 16:16-18 (Amplified Bible)

    16Greet one another with a holy (consecrated) kiss. All the churches of Christ (the Messiah) wish to be remembered to you.

    17 I appeal to you, brethren, to be on your guard concerning those who create dissensions and difficulties and cause divisions, in opposition to the doctrine (the teaching) which you have been taught. [I warn you to turn aside from them, to] avoid them.

    18For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites and base desires, and by ingratiating and flattering speech, they beguile the hearts of the unsuspecting and simpleminded [people].

    1 Corinthians 1:9-11 (Amplified Bible)

    9God is faithful (reliable, trustworthy, and therefore ever true to His promise, and He can be depended on); by Him you were called into companionship and participation with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

    10But I urge and entreat you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in perfect harmony and full agreement in what you say, and that there be no dissensions or factions or divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in your common understanding and in your opinions and judgments.

    11For it has been made clear to me, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions and wrangling and factions among you.

  • Harry

    Ok I looked at some of your comments you made .(To be honest I have only glanced over them before as I always get the same answers from the guys who sit on the side line.)
    Let me answer a few.
    —————————————————————————————-
    Elmarie said
    Jesus spoke to the apostles Only not to you or me. Jesus gave the apostles this power of healing and driving out demons and to cure disease purely SO THAT THEY COULD GO OUT AND MAKE NON BELIEVERS TO BELIEVE. The non believers those days had nothing not even Scripture. Neither did the apostles have Scripture, they were writing the Bible not reading it.

    Mark 16: 15 And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. 16 Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned. 17 These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.[e] 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”

    He told THEM (the apostles) you are probably right. But then he says ANYONE (that’s me and also you, if you believe) who believes, 17 These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.[e] 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. THEY (THOSE WHO BELIEVE THE WORD THE APOSTLES TOOK TO THE UNBELIEVERS, THE EXACT THING I DO, I TAKE THE WORD TO THE UNBELIEVER THE SAME AS YOU WERE ONCE. YOU WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN DEAD IN YOUR SIN IF SOMONE LIKE me DID NOT BRING THE GOSPEL TO YOU.)

    IT THEN SAYES THOSE WHO BELIEVE… will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”(The same as what happened to the Muslim man I laid my hands on and God healed. The same with numerous others. Please do not twist my words now and say I claim to heal and save, I do it in the name of Jesus. He gets the glory, I am the vessel.

    Romans 10: 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!

    You see this scripture says HOW CAN THEY HEAR WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM. You might have a low opinion of me, at least the Bible says I have beautiful feet!!!!

    What about Paul, he was not there that day or any of the other people mentioned in acts.

    What about James 5:13 13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

    ——————————————————————-
    Elmarie you said

    With all the supposed faith healers at our beck and call today, someone should go tell the medical students in all universities that their professions are becoming obsolete. Luke the apostle was a physician before he was an apostle. If laying on of hands and faith healing was intended to grow into the preposterous proportions in the church of today why did Luke, who had direct access to Jesus Himself continue on as a physician and as saint.

    This is such a stupid remark it speaks for itself. We are not in competition with doctors, in fact we fight the same enemy.

    ————————————————————————-
    Elmarie you said

    Harry
    I’m telling you this in the love of the true Jesus. Please check whether this is true in the Word.
    I think my previous explanation shows you the truth.

    Elamarie said
    But Hary you should know that men do not bring people to Jesus, but the Holy Spirit.
    I know only the Holy Spirit can convict. Someone still has to take the message, as mentioned before.
    The rest of the comments are not worth an answer.

    _______________________________________________________________
    A few scriptures

    Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
    John 15 “I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit,(Have you seen what Calvinist do to this scripture to fit into their theology)

    James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

    If you do not have works you are the same as the devil for he also believes.

    You see faith and works are like rowing a boat you can’t only use one ore. You need to otherwise you will be going in circles. ( I know it is very difficult for a Calvinist to accept the book of James as part of the Bible)

  • Elmarie A

    To be honest I have
    only glanced over them before as I always get the same answers from the guys who sit on the side line

    So Then Harry you are Judgmental as you are saying the people whom answer you sit on the side line? You don’t know anyone’s heart Harry and that includes mine. Only God knows my heart.
    You have no idea who I am. You are more likely being influenced by False preachers. Do you even know what Discernment means Harry.

    You might have a low opinion of me, at least the
    Bible says I have beautiful feet!!!!

    We are all meek and weak as mere humans and pray and depend on the gift of Salvation from God and no true Christian may hold himself as being higher than others that is not Scriptural or representative of our fruits as His children.

    Harry go read the verse about your feet in context please, you are twisting the Word to suit you.

    <blockquote This is such a stupid remark it speaks for itself. We are not incompetition with doctors, in fact we fight the same enemy.

    It was supposed to be stupid to prove my point Harry. Oh so you believe only Satan send disease and sickness hmmmmmmmmmmmm

    The rest of the comments are not worth an answer.

    There was no need for you to answer any of my Comments I never asked you to.

    Have you seen what Calvinist do to this scripture to fit into their theology

    Nope Nooooo because I am not interested in Calvinism or any man made doctrine or theology. I believe that the Word of God is our only God Breathed Doctrine we should follow.

    If you do not have works you are the same as the devil for he also believes.You see faith and works are like rowing a boat you can’t only use one ore. You need to otherwise you will be going in circles. ( I know it
    is very difficult for a Calvinist to accept the book of James as partof the Bible)

    Now which cult taught you that?? huh. What has Calvinism got to do with anything here? You know Harry I actually love the book of James as much as I love the whole Bible. Harry Harry you don’t know me so you cannot label me as a Calvinist as I do not believe in any Doctrine other than THE WORD OF GOD and we are not allowed to remove or add to His Word.

    I will give you some links below to read because much is to be said about the fact that you think works can save one. You row what ever boat you want Harry we where all given free will. So are you saying that Calvinist removed or ignore the book of James oh my oh my . Yikes I think you have to make the
    world aware of that.

    THEY (THOSE WHO BELIEVE THE WORD THE APOSTLES TOOK TO THE UNBELIEVERS, THE EXACT THING
    I DO, I TAKE THE WORD TO THE UNBELIEVER THE SAME AS YOU WERE ONCE. YOU WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN DEAD IN YOUR SIN IF SOMONE LIKE me DID NOT BRING THE GOSPEL TO YOU.)IT THEN SAYES THOSE WHO BELIEVE

    Just remember Harry that You are not an Apstotel as there where only the 12 chosen by Jesus. We are only to spread the Goodnews the Gospel to unbelievers not concetrate on Works.

    Something interesting points for you to ponder on:

    Question: “Laying on of hands – what does the Bible say?”

    Answer: “Laying on of hands” is a Biblical action; however, there is no biblical mandate requiring the physical laying on of hands for a particular spiritual ministry. Jesus certainly laid His hands on many of those He healed; however, He also healed without laying His hands on people. In fact, there were times when He was nowhere near the vicinity of those He healed. Matthew 8:8 describes Jesus healing the servant of the centurion without going near the centurion’s house.

    Following are two instances to consider where in one case the Holy Spirit bestows the gift of speaking in tongues with the act of an apostle’s laying on of hands and in the other case He does so without the laying on of hands, but simply through the apostle’s preaching:

    “Paul said, ‘John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.’ On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.” (Acts 19:4-6).

    “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God?” (Acts 10:44-46).

    In the following verse, the thought is not so much in cautioning the physical action of laying on of hands as it is to the idea that bestowing the responsibility of spiritual leadership (however it is done) is to be done with care. It is not to be done “suddenly” or without due consideration. “Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure” (1 Timothy 5:22).

    Undoubtedly the laying on of hands in the early church was a means of connecting the message with the messenger, or the spiritual gift with the gifted giver. It provided a “sign” authenticating him through whom the physical manifestation of a spiritual gift was bestowed. We need to understand very carefully that there are no magical biblical formulas for the ministry of the Church. Laying on of hands has no power in itself. Laying on of hands is only used by God when it is done in agreement with God’s Word.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/laying-on-of-hands.html

    Question: “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

    Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

    The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

    Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

    Question: “What is salvation? What is the Christian doctrine of salvation?”

    Answer: Salvation is deliverance from danger or suffering. To save is to deliver or protect. The word carries the idea of victory, health, or preservation. Sometimes, the Bible uses the words saved or salvation to refer to temporal, physical deliverance, such as Paul’s deliverance from prison (Philippians 1:19).

    More often, the word “salvation” concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny (Acts 16:30-31). Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:24-25).

    What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

    Who does the saving? Only God can remove sin and deliver us from sin’s penalty (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).

    How does God save? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, God has rescued us through Christ (John 3:17). Specifically, it was Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that achieved our salvation (Romans 5:10; Ephesians 1:7). Scripture is clear that salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God (Ephesians 2:5, 8) and is only available through faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12).

    How do we receive salvation? We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospel—the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believe—fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).

    A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God’s conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-doctrine-salvation.html

    “Why does God allow sickness?”

    Answer: The issue of sickness is always a difficult one to deal with. The key is remembering that God’s ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9). When we are suffering with a sickness, disease, or injury, we usually focus solely on our own suffering. In the midst of a trial of sickness, it is very difficult to focus on what good God might bring about as a result. Romans 8:28 reminds us that God can bring about good from any situation. Many people look back on times of sickness as times when they grew closer to God, learned to trust Him more, and/or learned how to truly value life. This is the perspective God has because He is sovereign and knows the end result.

    This does not mean sickness is always from God or that God always inflicts us with sickness to teach us a spiritual lesson. In a world tainted by sin, sickness, disease, and death will always be with us. We are fallen beings, with physical bodies prone to disease and illness. Some sickness is simply a result of the natural course of things in this world. Sickness can also be the result of a demonic attack. The Bible describes several instances when physical suffering was caused by Satan and his demons (Matthew 17:14-18; Luke 13:10-16). So, some sickness is not from God, but from Satan. Even in these instances, God is still in control. God sometimes allows sin and/or Satan to cause physical suffering. Even when sickness is not directly from God, He will still use it according to His perfect will.

    It is undeniable, though, that God sometimes intentionally allows, or even causes sickness to accomplish His sovereign purposes. While sickness is not directly addressed in the passage, Hebrews 12:5-11 describes God disciplining us to “produce a harvest of righteousness” (verse 11). Sickness can be a means of God’s loving discipline. It is difficult for us to comprehend why God would work in this manner. But, believing in the sovereignty of God, there is no other option than suffering being something God allows and/or causes.

    The clearest example of this in Scripture is found is Psalm 119. Notice the progression through verses 67, 71, and 75 – “Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word…It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees…I know, O LORD, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me.” The author of Psalm 119 was looking at suffering from God’s perspective. It was good for him to be afflicted. It was faithfulness that caused God to afflict him. The result of the affliction was so that he could learn God’s decrees and obey His Word.

    Again, sickness and suffering is never an easy thing to deal with. One thing is for sure, sickness should not cause us to lose faith in God. God is good, even when we are suffering. Even the ultimate of suffering—death—is an act of God’s goodness. It is hard to imagine that anyone who is in Heaven as a result of sickness or suffering regrets what they went through in this life.

    One final note—when people are suffering, it is our responsibility to minister to them, care for them, pray for them, and comfort them. When a person is suffering, it is not always appropriate to emphasize that God will bring good out of the suffering. Yes, that is the truth. However, in the midst of suffering, it is not always the best time to share that truth. Suffering people need our love and encouragement, not necessarily a reminder of sound biblical theology.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/God-allow-sickness.html

    Question: “Are faith healers for real? Does a faith healer heal with the same power as Jesus?”

    Answer: There is no doubt that God has the power to heal anyone at any time. The question is whether He chooses to do so through those who are called “faith healers.” These individuals typically convince their audiences that God wants them to be well and that through their faith—and usually a financial offering—God will reward their faith by healing them through the power of Jesus.

    By comparing the healing ministry of the Lord Jesus to that of the modern faith healers, we can determine whether their claims have any basis in Scripture. If, as they say, they heal through the same power and in the same way that Jesus healed, we should be able to see marked similarities between them. However, just the opposite is true. Mark 1:29-34 gives us a description of just one day of Jesus’ healing ministry. His power to heal—and to do all kinds of miracles—was evidence that He had power over both the physical and spiritual effects of the curse of sin. He healed those afflicted with physical diseases, illnesses, and injuries, even raising the dead, and He cast demons out of those who were possessed by them. Only God can rescue us from the results of the Fall of man into sin—disease and death, and by His miracles, Jesus proved His deity.

    There are several distinctives in the way Jesus healed that are not characteristic of the modern faith healers. First, He healed instantly. Peter’s mother-in-law (Mark 1:31), the centurion’s son (Matthew 8:13), Jairus’ daughter (Mark 5:41-42), and the paralytic (Luke 5:24-25) were all healed immediately. They did not have to go home and start to get better, as is the advice from many faith healers. Second, Jesus healed totally. Peter’s mother-in-law was fully functional after being healed from an illness so severe she was bedridden, but when Jesus healed her, she rose immediately and prepared a meal for all who were in the house. The blind beggars in Matthew 20:34 were given instant sight. Third, Jesus healed everyone (Matthew 4:24; Luke 4:40). They were not required to be pre-screened by the disciples before coming to Jesus for healing, as is the standard procedure with the healers today. There was no healing line they had to qualify for. Jesus healed all the time in many places, not in a studio with carefully-controlled circumstances.

    Fourth, Jesus healed actual organic diseases, not symptoms as the faith healers do. Jesus never healed anyone of a headache or back pain. He healed of leprosy, blindness, and paralysis, miracles that were truly verifiable. Finally, Jesus healed the ultimate disease—death. He brought forth Lazarus after four days in the grave. No faith healer can duplicate that. In addition, His healings did not require faith as a precondition. In fact, most of those He healed were unbelievers.

    There have always been false healers who prey on the suffering and the desperate in order to pad their bank accounts. Such behavior is the worst kind of blasphemy because many whose money is wasted on false promises reject Christ outright because He does not do what the healer has promised. Why, if faith healers have the power to heal, do they not walk the halls of the hospitals healing everyone and releasing them all? Why do they not go to Africa and cure all the AIDS cases? They do not because they cannot. They do not have the power of healing that Jesus possessed.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/faith-healers.html

  • Elmarie A

    Harry

    The same as what happened to the Muslim man I laid my hands on and God healed. The same with numerous others. Please do not twist my words now and say I claim to heal and save, I do it in the name of Jesus. He gets the glory, I am the vessel.

    Did the Muslim man convert to Chrisianity by any chance. Have you seen him again? Did you offer to heal the Muslim man or Preach the Gospel to him. Which one did you do offer first.

    By the claim you are the vessel you sound like claiming that God chose you to “channel” through and that is just crazy and not Biblical. You sound like Benny Hinn.

    Yes Harry you probably love teachings of people like John G Lake and Kenneth Copeland. Well this sums in up pretty much for me.

    This excerpt from article below:

    A dominionist viewpoint is found through Lakes writings. When we understand the Latter Rain heresy that began in the early 1900’s we see exactly what Lake means by these statements.

    The Bible teaches that we are sons of God when we believe (Jn.1:12) the teaching of the Latter Rain makes “manifest sons” an experience. This bears repeating- “The power of God, the Holy Ghost, is the Spirit of Dominion. It makes one a god. It makes one not subject to the forces of the world, or the flesh, or the devil. These are under the Christians feet.” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. 13)

    Lake explains “Five years ago when my heart was broken, in the agony of my heart I disappeared into the woods of Oregon for 21 days with God, and he Showed me a church in Spokane that would be as pure as Jesus Christ. When it will come, I don’t know, but it will never come from a lot of slop and evangelistic mess, but when we live our lives on God’s alter” (The Spokesman Review, April 22, 1929).

    And you know the funny thing is Angus Buchan also goes to the woods of his farm he did it before MMC ………Now that makes me think Hmmmmmmmmmm

    Lake claimed that sin was the cause of sickness and adopted Dowies view that anyone who went to a doctor was as a heathen. Lake had this belief as the basis for his divine health “It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p.13).

    The teaching for the early church in scripture was “Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord” (James 5:14). People did get sick and that is why, besides these instructions from James, one of the gifts of the spirit was to heal sickness. In conclusion Lakes divine health (which Copeland also believes he is living in) is not biblical and completely untrue, even in Lakes own life.

    Please read on Harry.
    ______________________________________________________________

    Reviving the Revival of John Lake

    Discrepancies are not few but abundant when it comes to what Lake did, when he did it and the amount of people he healed. While in Spokane one-hundred thousand healings were reported during a period of five years.

    We also read “Dr. Lake indicated that at least one hundred thousand people were ministered to each year either by car, telephone, telegraph, letter, or cable” (The Healer: Dr. John Graham Lake).

    That is 100,000 people a year he saw individually. That is incredible- this is approx. 333 a day (with 1 day a week off). This would be 15 people each hour for twenty hours each day. And the number would be far greater if he had a regular day of 10 hours; if you want to believe this you can- it certainly stretches ones credulity.

    Yet we are told in his biography a different number “Open each weekday from 10 to 4. Personal interviews and ministry”

    “In a general letter published Saturday, February 8, 1919, in the Spokesman Review, Dr. Lake indicated that they ministered to an average of two hundred people per day in the Healing rooms (John G. Lake Biography

    this makes it only 6 hours a day. with 200 per day is nearly one person every two minutes.

    When Lake was in South Africa, the crowds were reportedly so great that he was unable to pray for everyone that needed prayer. According to one report- Roberts Liardon who tells the stories of the healers” “Can you see this rock that I’m standing next to? Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to lay my hands on this particular rock. I’m going to ask God to anoint this place and any of you that are sick just come up here and touch this rock…and…the power that I leave in it will go into you and make you whole.” )

    When Lake left Spokane to go to Portland, Oregon in May of 1920, the Healing Rooms there ceased. Lake returned to Spokane in 1931, and found that the work he had started no longer existed. One can only wonder why after only 5 years he closed down the rooms to move to another city if it was so successful.

    Kenneth Copeland on John G Lake:
    ”Throughout this book, but especially chapters 29 Science of Healing and 30 Results of Believing Prayer are sprinkled testimonies presented to the Spokane Better Business Bureau.
    Lake shares in chapter 31 The Power of Divine Healing that his co-worker in S Africa prayed for days under a thorn tree for the end to a fever epidemic that had killed a quarter of the population in 1 month in an area of 350 miles. That man prayed until he at last needed prayer support. They witnessed a flock of demons, which his prayer partner cursed back to where they had come from. Immediately the epidemic stopped.
    In chapter 31 Lake also shares a testimony of a creative miracle of a tubercular limb that was so decayed that the physician could put his finger through the joint. The healing was so unusual that John Alexander Dowie of Chicago interviewed the woman. Lake also shares that God healed him (self) from both crippling rheumatism and blindness. )

    “He proved to local physicians that the germs would not live on his body due to the Holy Spirit alive in Him. He actually verified this under a microscope showing that the germs died upon contact with his body. Those who witnessed the experiment stood in amazement as Lake gave glory to God explaining that: “It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. I believe that just as long as I keep my soul in contact with the living God so that His Spirit is flowing into my soul and body, that no germ will ever attach itself to me, for the Spirit of God will kill it.”

    Does this mean that those who get sick do not have the Holy Spirit in their body to keep them healthy? Why do we find saints getting sick in the bible? Lakes teaching was divine health not divine healing.

    On numerous Healing Rooms websites we find them saying “because of his resurrection revelation, had a deadly plague germ die in his hand”

    This was no germ “To demonstrate, he had them take live bubonic plague germs still foaming from the lungs of a newly dead person and put them in his hands and then examine the germs under a microscope. They were dead.”

    Paul was given a thorn in the flesh because of his revelations, Lake had a revelation and no germs live in him in Africa, but in the US there was a different story. Greg DesVoignes research cites the “Spokesman Review,” April 24, 1929 “Frequently he had to pause to cough or sneeze, as he was suffering from a cold. Once he had to go out into the hall to stop a spasm of coughing.”

    Lake claimed that sin was the cause of sickness and adopted Dowies view that anyone who went to a doctor was as a heathen. Lake had this belief as the basis for his divine health “It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p.13).

    One cannot find this teaching among the apostles, Epaphroditus who ministered to Paul had become sick (Phil.2:25) Paul said: “Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick” (2 Tim. 4:20).

    The teaching for the early church in scripture was “Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord” (James 5:14). People did get sick and that is why, besides these instructions from James, one of the gifts of the spirit was to heal sickness. In conclusion Lakes divine health (which Copeland also believes he is living in) is not biblical and completely untrue, even in Lakes own life.

    Lake had dubbed this belief “This new science is known as pneumatology: the science of spirit…” but it is more like a “mind science,” and has nothing to do with the a study of the Holy Spirit.

    Lake also had outrageous claims on his ability to diagnose sickness: “My nature became so sensitized that I could lay my hands on any man or woman and tell what organ was diseased and to what extent” “Lake tested this new wonder by going to hospitals and touching patients to determine what their ailments were. And even to make it more challenging, most of them were cases that even the physicians could not diagnose” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. xxi).

    This is something we do not see any apostle do and is in that category of greater works. But there are stories of healing failures of Lake carried by the local papers that cannot be ignored.

    Pentecostal Dominionism

    Lake: “I can see as my spirit discerns the future and reaches out to touch the heart of mankind and the desire of God, that there is coming from heaven a new manifestation of the Holy Spirit in power, and that new manifestation will be in sweetness, in love, in tenderness, and in the power of the Spirit, beyond anything your heart or mind ever saw. The very lightning of God will flash through men’s souls. The sons of God will meet the sons of darkness and prevail.

    Clearly this is church dominionism of which the Bible has nothing to say about. Lake had believed in another Pentecost that would be utterly transforming and his descriptions have been used and abused by many.

    Chicago Tribune, June 14, 1895, p. 7- “Beloved, God is calling men and women to a holier consecration, to a higher place in God, and I am one of God’s candidates for that holy place in God. I want to get to the throne of God… And that is the experience that is going to make the sons of God in the world. That is the reason they will take the world for Jesus Christ, and the Kingdom will be established, and they will put the crown on the Son of God, and declare him, ‘King of kings and Lord of lords…” (underline mine)

    A dominionist viewpoint is found through Lakes writings. When we understand the Latter Rain heresy that began in the early 1900’s we see exactly what Lake means by these statements.

    The Bible teaches that we are sons of God when we believe (Jn.1:12) the teaching of the Latter Rain makes “manifest sons” an experience. This bears repeating- “The power of God, the Holy Ghost, is the Spirit of Dominion. It makes one a god. It makes one not subject to the forces of the world, or the flesh, or the devil. These are under the Christians feet.” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. 13)

    Lake explains “Five years ago when my heart was broken, in the agony of my heart I disappeared into the woods of Oregon for 21 days with God, and he Showed me a church in Spokane that would be as pure as Jesus Christ. When it will come, I don’t know, but it will never come from a lot of slop and evangelistic mess, but when we live our lives on God’s alter” (The Spokesman Review, April 22, 1929).

    It is good to desire holiness to do good works but can a church ever be perfect as Jesus without the final transformation of the resurrection? To say that it will be in Spokane seems to come from his own desire of the heart of the situation he was dealing with. Some of this is reminiscent of Joseph Smith who also found himself in the woods visited by Jesus and an angel and found the church corrupt, needing restoration.

    I did find a contradiction of Lakes desire and what he himself did. He had “ Public services on Sunday at The Masonic Temple at 11 a.m. and 3 p.m. (John G. Lake Biography http://www.enterhisrest.org/charismata/lake_biography.pdf

    This is a problem, considering what the Masons are about, why would they let him use their facility, better yet, why would you want to hold you church meetings there?

    Electric power

    “Such was the power of his anointing that he wrote about it as being like the lightning of Jesus: “You talk about the voltage from heaven and the power of God! Why there is lightning in the soul of Jesus! The lightnings of Jesus heal men by their flash! Sin dissolves and disease flees when the power of God approaches!” Lake would also compare the anointing of God’s Spirit to the power of electricity. Just as men had learned the laws of electricity, Lake had discovered the laws of the Spirit. And, as God’s “lightning rod,” he would rise within God’s calling to electrify the powers of darkness and solidify the body of Chris.” (God’s Generals

    Once again we have an interesting correlation to the manifestations of the false revivals in our midst today. Rodney Browne, Toronto, Pensacola all describe God’s power and anointing like electricity.

    We are also told that Lake “had been influenced by the ministry of Sister Marie Woodworth-Etter, and himself influenced countless ministers. Positive Words Newsletter- online#114 — 3rd April 2006)

    Maria Woodsworth-Etter (1844-1924) was a preacher in the holiness movement in the 1880’s. She gained a reputation by falsely prophesying that San Francisco would be destroyed by an earthquake in 1890. She promoted in her meetings a religious experience she called the “power.” She would often go into a trance during the services, standing still (frozen) with her hands raised in the air for more than an hour. People were slain in the spirit and other strange phenomenon occurred. Certainly not a good influence any more than Dowie.

    Lake also exhibited nearly identical descriptions of what we have seen in today’s revival meetings of Rodney Browne and Toronto early on in his ministry “In 1908 I preached in Pretoria South Africa, when one night God came over my life in such power, in such streams of liquid glory and power, that it flowed consciously off my hands like streams of electricity. I would point my finger at a man and that stream would strike him. When a man interrupted the meeting. I would point my finger at him and say, “Sit down!”. He fell as if struck, and lay there for three hours…” (ed. Note: Just like the stories of Rodney Browne).

    “I ministered to sixty-five sick who were present, and the streams that were pouring through my hands were so powerful the people would fall as they were hit… And the Spirit said, “You do not need to put your hands on them. Keep your hands a distance away’. And when I held my hands a foot from their heads they would crumple and fall in a heap on the floor” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p.488)

    Copeland writes-“At other times the anointing on him became so strong that people would fall under its power simply by coming within six feet of him.” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. xxi)

    While spirits are often passed on by the laying on of hands and various other means, this is not how the Holy Spirit was or is passed on to believers. There is no Biblical basis for a transmission of a mantle or transferring an anointing from one person to another. There is no evidence that a transfer took place when apostles laid hands on people (1 Timothy 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6). The Holy Spirit was not coming from them to others. The laying on of hands was a public recognition by them, a confirmation of what the Holy Spirit has either already done or wants to do (Acts 6:6; 8:17; 13:3; Hebrews 6:2). Acts 19 tells us that when Paul laid hands on some believers from Ephesus the Spirit came (Gr. Epi), upon them, from above, not (Gr. dia), through him. The Spirit did not come by or through Paul’s hands, but it came upon the disciples from above, just as He did on Pentecost. Jesus sends the holy Spirit- not man.

    “John G. Lake moved in a profound anointing of the Spirit of God. Healing, deliverance and miracles were a steady occurrence in his ministry. Anyone reading of the great things that God did through Lake would desire to walk in such an anointing. We, individually and as a movement, desire to appropriate and walk in this type of mantle. There is a truth to the fact that anointings can be “handed on” through the laying on of hands. (See Num. 34:9) This “handing on” of anointings, of course, must be orchestrated by the Spirit of God. http://www.wordatwork.org

    At least if you’re going to try and prove this unbiblical teaching you should get the Scripture citation right. Actually, there is no biblical basis for this. It is a tradition of Pentecostalism, especially found in the Latter Rain. There is only one anointing. The only one who is recorded asking for the anointing was Simon the sorcerer (Acts 13:6a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus,) it was not a good thing.

    There are only a few mentions of hands being laid and the Spirit in the Old Testament, if one does not read it carefully they can come to the wrong conclusion. For example Deut. 34:9: “Now Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him.” This would seem as if he received the spirit by Moses laying hands on him. However if we read the other account we find he already had God’s Spirit in him and that is why Moses laid his hand on him, to confirm his leadership position. Numbers 27:18: “And the LORD said to Moses: “Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.” Vv.19-20 tells us it was, to” inaugurate him in their sight” and give him some of his authority.

    Another account is in Numbers 11:17: “Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone.” It would seem that the same spirit that was put on Moses would be distributed to others, but not from him.

    Num 11:25 “Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again” this was a one time event to endorse their leadership role to be a help to Moses.

    Joe McIntyre (on behalf of the board of IFM) International fellowship of ministries – advancing the vision of John Lake tells us “Wilford Reidt, John G. Lake’s son-in-law, (who headed this organization for many years) laid hands on many of our members for a transfer of anointing”. (underline mine) He then assures us that no one can make exclusive claims to have Lake’s anointing or to be the designated heir of his mantle.

    Among those stories when they came to the Hawaiian Islands -Pastors Steve and Fay Johnson: Pastor Steve left before we arrived. God touched Sister Fay with a double portion enough to share with Brother Steve.”

    That’s an interesting concept; that the Holy Spirit is in a limited supply .I would think many would have a problem with descriptions that are never hinted in the Scripture of the New Testament.

    John writes “the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you” (1 John 2:27). He continually indwells the believer; He is with us and we received Him from Jesus. So there is no need for us to transfer Him to another believer (even if we could). You cannot impart the Holy Spirit who is God. It was Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and He is the one who anoints us today- we are not little Jesus’ able to do this or everything He can.

    Jackie Alnor mentions in an article that cites Liardons video on the Pentecostal preachers “And John G. Lake’s spirit would leave his body and minister to people in the spirit realm.” Not surprising that Kenneth Copeland has a similar story – he says “My spirit was coming out of my body” as he carried on a conversation with his god – god responded “ you were just about to come out of your body and I was going to allow you to minister that congregation with out your BODY,” but he blew the opportunity.

    So where is this teaching in the Bible? Its not, but it is found in Occult circles, its called astral travel. While Lake was in Africa, we are told his soul traveled to an asylum in Wales where a violent insane woman was confined.

    “Suddenly, I seemed out of the body…it seemed as if I were passing through the atmosphere observing everything but moving with great lightning-like rapidity,” Lake wrote.

    “I was inside the institution without waiting for the doors to open and present at the side of a cot on which lay a woman.”

    “Lake laid his hands upon her head and commanded in the name of Jesus that the demon spirit possessing her be cast out and that she be healed by the power of God.”

    “In a moment or two, I observed a change coming over her countenance,” Lake narrated. “It softened and a look of intelligence appeared. Then her eyes opened, and she smiled up in my face. I knew she was healed.” Doctors who later confirmed her recovery had no explanation to offer.” (Adventures in God by John G. Lake)

    It is these kind of mystical/Occult experiences that have me question the validity of any of his stories and miracles.

    p.3 The Healing Rooms today- Their origin and practices of today

    http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac41.htm

  • Harry

    I think you miss the whole argument.
    Please show me a scripture that says that healing, tongues or gifts of the Holy Spirit has passed away.
    1Cor 13:12 then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
    Please don’t tell this scripture says so. This talks about one day when we are in His presence.
    You might tell me we have the Bible now.
    Well we think everybody in the world have a Bible or our privileges.
    I am allowed to say then that nations who have not been reached or who do not have the Bible in their own language or maybe have nothing written in their language would be allowed to move in the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit?

    We do not want to pray for the sick because of the way people abuse it. We are scared to use the word faith because of abuse. We are scared to talk about the gifts of the spirit because of abuse.
    We must find a balance. Just because a few individuals who kill themselves, and others, because of the way they drive does not stop us who stick to the rules from driving. The same counts for believers, just because some people go to the extreme it will not stop me from believing and living the whole council of God.
    Faith:
    I have just read the Gospels again and noticed how many time Jesus said “your faith”. So obviously whatever they had received had something to do with “their faith”. Jesus also said what you believe you can have. The key is to find the balance and get rid of the extreme. Yes my faith works and will work as long as it is in accordance with the will of the One who gave it to me in the first place. Anything outside of this, whether I receive it (by my own power not by God’s) or not, have anything to do with the will of God and can lead to false teaching.
    Tongues (Pentecostal or Charismatics) and healing.
    Jesus said in Mark, those who believe will speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick and they will recover. We cannot ignore this because of people’s abuses. What about 1 Cor 12,13, 14, we cannot just act like it does not exist. We must preach the whole council of God and not just our own pet doctrines.
    I still lay hands on people and the words Jesus spoke so long ago still have power to heal.
    I am baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and I pray for people to be baptized and the same happens to them.
    If this piece in the Gospel of Mark is not for today then maybe the rest of the Bible is also not for today.
    The key is to find the truth in the Word and to stick to it. Do not make the Word say something it does not say, this will always get you into trouble!

  • Elmarie A

    Harry

    You Say:'”Do not make the Word say something it does not say, this will always get you into trouble!”

    You are just doing that yourself Harry getting yourselve in trouble.

    No I’m not missing any argument because there is not an argument.

    Harry you believes differ vastly from the views on this blog. Please stop forcing your views here on this blog. Your points you make are weak and mostly non biblical.

    You know that Corr 12,13 and 14 is used totally out for context by charismatic and people who believe in Miracles signs and wonders and that is research you should do for your self. You have been given allot of Biblical information on this blog and you simply choose to ignore it.

    You have not read any of my comments that gives Biblical proof. You see things in a twisted and blinded way. My prayer for you is that you find the real Jesus and Holy Spirit in you life.

    You are deceived by the wrong spirits full stop. It is very difficult to show a deceived person the straight and narrow road. In fact the Word says that God has blinded their eyes and hardened and benumbed their [callous, degenerated] hearts [He has made their minds dull], to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their hearts and minds

    John 12:39-41 39 Therefore they could not believe [they were unable to believe]. For Isaiah has also said, 40He has blinded their eyes and hardened and benumbed their [callous, degenerated] hearts [He has made their minds dull], to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their hearts and minds and repenting and turning to Me to heal them. 41Isaiah said this because he saw His glory and spoke of Him

    Please Harry don’t come back here with more twisted views.

    As the word tells us we are to turn away from irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the subtleties and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination. And after admonishing him a first and second time, reject [him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him], Well aware that such a person has utterly changed (is perverted and corrupted); he goes on sinning [though he] is convicted of guilt and self-condemned.

    1 Timothy 6:20
    O Timothy, guard and keep the deposit entrusted [to you]! Turn away from the irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the subtleties and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination.

    Titus 3:9-11 (Amplified Bible)
    9But avoid stupid and foolish controversies and genealogies and dissensions and wrangling about the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. 10[As for] a man who is factious [a heretical sectarian and cause of divisions], after admonishing him a first and second time, reject [him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him], 11Well aware that such a person has utterly changed (is perverted and corrupted); he goes on sinning [though he] is convicted of guilt and self-condemned.

    1 Thessalonians 5:14
    And we earnestly beseech you, brethren, admonish (warn and seriously advise) those who are out of line [the loafers, the disorderly, and the unruly]; encourage the timid and fainthearted, help and give your support to the weak souls, [and] be very patient with everybody [always keeping your temper].

    Just more Biblical proof your views are in correct Harry.

    Question: “Are the miraculous gifts of the Spirit for today?”

    Answer: First, it is important to recognize that this is not a question of whether God still performs miracles today. It would be foolish and unbiblical to claim God does not heal people, speak to people, and perform miraculous signs and wonders today. The question is whether the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, described primarily in 1 Corinthians 12–14, are still active in the church today. This is also not a question of can the Holy Spirit give someone a miraculous gift. The question is whether the Holy Spirit still dispenses the miraculous gifts today. Above all else, we entirely recognize that the Holy Spirit is free to dispense gifts according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

    In the book of Acts and the Epistles, the vast majority of miracles are performed by the apostles and their close associates. Paul gives us the reason why: “The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance” (2 Corinthians 12:12). If every believer in Christ was equipped with the ability to perform signs, wonders, and miracles, then signs, wonders, and miracles could in no way be the identifying marks of an apostle. Acts 2:22 tells us that Jesus was “accredited” by “miracles, wonders, and signs.” Similarly, the apostles were “marked” as genuine messengers from God by the miracles they performed. Acts 14:3 describes the gospel message being “confirmed” by the miracles Paul and Barnabas performed.

    Chapters 12–14 of 1 Corinthians deal primarily with the subject of the gifts of the Spirit. It seems from that text “ordinary” Christians were sometimes given miraculous gifts (12:8-10, 28-30). We are not told how commonplace this was. From what we learned above, that the apostles were “marked” by signs and wonders, it would seem that miraculous gifts being given to “ordinary” Christians was the exception, not the rule. Beside the apostles and their close associates, the New Testament nowhere specifically describes individuals exercising the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

    It is also important to realize that the early church did not have the completed Bible, as we do today (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Therefore, the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, wisdom, etc. were necessary in order for the early Christians to know what God would have them do. The gift of prophecy enabled believers to communicate new truth and revelation from God. Now that God’s revelation is complete in the Bible, the “revelatory” gifts are no longer needed, at least not in the same capacity as they were in the New Testament.

    God miraculously heals people every day. God still speaks to us today, whether in an audible voice, in our minds, or through impressions and feelings. God still does amazing miracles, signs, and wonders and sometimes performs those miracles through a Christian. However, these things are not necessarily the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. The primary purpose of the miraculous gifts was to prove that the gospel was true and that the apostles were truly God’s messengers. The Bible does not say outright that the miraculous gifts have ceased, but it does lay the foundation for why they might no longer occur to the same extent as they did as recorded in the New Testament.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/miraculous-gifts.html

  • Elmarie A

    Harry
    You said : “Please show me a scripture that says that healing, tongues or gifts of the Holy Spirit has passed away.
    1Cor 13:12 then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.”

    Here is something for you to ponder on if you would even bother to read it. Now this also shows how incorrect your views are concerning speaking in tongues.

    ______________________________________________________________
    Question: “What is the gift of speaking in tongues?”

    Answer: The first occurrence of speaking in tongues occurred on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4. The apostles went out and shared the gospel with the crowds, speaking to them in their own languages: “We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (Acts 2:11). The Greek word translated tongues literally means “languages.” Therefore, the gift of tongues is speaking in a language a person does not know in order to minister to someone who does speak that language. In 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14, Paul discusses miraculous gifts, saying, “Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?” (1 Corinthians 14:6). According to the apostle Paul, and in agreement with the tongues described in Acts, speaking in tongues is valuable to the one hearing God’s message in his or her own language, but it is useless to everyone else unless it is interpreted/translated.

    A person with the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30) could understand what a tongues-speaker was saying even though he did not know the language that was being spoken. The tongues interpreter would then communicate the message of the tongues speaker to everyone else, so all could understand. “For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13). Paul’s conclusion regarding tongues that were not interpreted is powerful: “But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue” (1 Corinthians 14:19).

    Is the gift of tongues for today? First Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Some point to a difference in the tense of the Greek verbs referring to prophecy and knowledge “ceasing” and that of tongues “being ceased” as evidence for tongues ceasing before the arrival of the “perfect.” While possible, this is not explicitly clear from the text. Some also point to passages such as Isaiah 28:11 and Joel 2:28-29 as evidence that speaking in tongues was a sign of God’s oncoming judgment. First Corinthians 14:22 describes tongues as a “sign to unbelievers.” According to this argument, the gift of tongues was a warning to the Jews that God was going to judge Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah. Therefore, when God did in fact judge Israel (with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70), the gift of tongues would no longer serve its intended purpose. While this view is possible, the primary purpose of tongues being fulfilled does not necessarily demand its cessation. Scripture does not conclusively assert that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased.

    At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God’s Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

    God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11). Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they did not have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God’s plan for the church today.
    ______________________________________________________________

    Question: “Is cessationism Biblical?”

    Answer: Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

    The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8); Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24); the apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

    Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

    After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

    The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are 6 proofs that it has already ceased:

    1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

    2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest Epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned (although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy, the Greek word translated prophecy mean “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future).

    3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

    4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

    5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

    6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2.As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

    The reasons stated above are evidence that the sign gifts have ceased. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html

  • Alan

    Elmarie,

    One of the things that Jesus said we should do to identify whether or not someone is a true follower of Him, is to observe their FRUIT, by which (especially in light of 1 Cor. 13), He meant the fruits of the Spirit. A lot of folks nowadays talk about miracles, etc, being a sign to unbelievers, but the Bible makes it quite clear that we are to earnestly seek the fruit of the Spirit in our lives above all else. This is a natural outworking of our becoming more like Jesus Christ as we grow in Him by the power of the Spirit.
    I find it strange that anyone would want to be a prophet, like Elijah, Isaiah, etc. The accuracy required by the scripture is 100% and as far as I know, the injunction on stoning a false prophet hasn’t been revoked… NAH, just kidding, but God’s attitude to false prophets and preachers and teachers is pretty fearsome. I certainly wouldn’t want to have to explain any ‘mistakes’ to Him.
    There are some who go about talking of a ‘school of the prophets’, which I find frankly silly, because a prophet is to speak the words the Holy Spirit gives him. How exactly do you learn to do something that the Holy Spirit gives you the ability to do? It’s not like He needs any practice! If a prophet is just letting the Holy Spirit speak through him, then there really is no ‘schooling’ necessary, because it’s like God’s strength being made perfect in the speaker’s weakness, isn’t it?

    Blessings,
    Alan.

  • Harry

    Hi Elmarie
    The above is what you get when you try to explain something you have not experienced yourself.
    The Bible talks about diverse kinds of tongues, this means different types of tongues.
    Please try and read some stuff from people who have experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit and not people who are criticising stuff they have no clue about.
    Please pray and ask Jesus to baptize you in the Holy Spirit to the full extend according to what is written in His word not according to your own interpretation….
    You are missing out on a lot in your walk with God……
    Please give me one example of something I have said that I cannot backup with scripture?
    And as far as love in your life goes….. well stop insulting me because I do not fit into your mould…..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    The above is what you get when you try to explain something you have not experienced yourself.
    The Bible talks about diverse kinds of tongues, this means different types of tongues.
    Please try and read some stuff from people who have experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit and not people who are criticising stuff they have no clue about.
    Please pray and ask Jesus to baptize you in the Holy Spirit to the full extend according to what is written in His word not according to your own interpretation….
    You are missing out on a lot in your walk with God……
    Please give me one example of something I have said that I cannot backup with scripture?
    And as far as love in your life goes….. well stop insulting me because I do not fit into your mould…..

    Do you know what you are saying when you speak in tongues? If you read your bible it says that gift of tongues given to the Apostles and disciples back then were earthly tongues so as to preach the gospel to people who spoke other languages. So what are you speaking about? And what edification is it to OTHERS that you babble and no one understands what on earth you are saying? You don’t even understand what you are saying.?

    >> Please give me one example of something I have said that I cannot backup with scripture?

    Now seeing that you ask the question…let’s do it.

    Please quote scripture to back up your claim that tongues is a heavenly language?
    Also I want you to tell us what you are saying when you speak in tongues?
    I would like you to go and find the verse and quote it here where it states that you have to have an interpreter?

    And as far as love in your life goes. Harry YOU have said the most nastiest things to us, utter horrendus insults from the very beginning. Point your fingers back right at yourself.

    Now, I want you to answer the above questions with decent constructive answers and I want scriptural back up. If you attempt to be nasty in any way, I will black list you and that will be the end of your stay on this blog. I have been reading your comments and letting you have your say, but enough is enough.

    So, please answer my questions, supply all your scripture that I asked you too and let’s see where this conversation goes.

  • Elmarie A

    Alan

    Yes I agree with you. Your words are true. Yeah and the Schools for prophets are found as a very common thing in the charismatic churches and South Africa is over run with them. A very sad situation indeed. The fact that new generation is being drawn in to this is just as sad.

    I often think about how the false prophets was stoned in the Old Testament :-)

    God’s attitude to false prophets and preachers and teachers is pretty fearsome

    Indeed indeed true words Alan

    We can just carry on praying for these people, we may not hate them, we must love as we are commanded. but I hate the sins they are commiting.

  • Harry

    Now where shall I start?

    Question 1:
    Please quote scripture to back up your claim that tongues is a heavenly language?

    Mark 16:11
    And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with NEW tongues
    This Jesus said. Please note the word IN MY NAME. I do it in His name not my own power.

    Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    As the Spirit gave them utterance. Surely this shows it is from above.

    Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied
    Here we see more people besides the 12 or 120 speaking in tongues?
    Nowhere do I read Paul saying “ok guys this is it after I am dead and gone no more speaking in tongues or practising the gifts of the Holy Spirit”

    1 Cor 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

    1 Cor 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues
    Please note there are varieties of tongues.

    1 Cor 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?

    1 Cor 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
    Please note here he speaks of tongues being used in public worship. Not personal tongues used in private prayer.
    For us who are baptised in the Holy Spirit and use the gifts of the Spirit that was given to the church on the day of Pentecost it works like this. If you get a tongue from the Lord while in a public service it is different from the one you have for use during private prayed. (Most of us actually pray in the Spirit all the time.)

    1 Cor 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. (Is this not what you are doing? You are telling other people to disobey a command in the Bible?)

    Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[a] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (The groanings here happens when you pray in tongues in deep intersession.)

    It says the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses. The weakness is that I do not know what to pray. I say lord I Pray for Deborah, I do not know you or what to pray for, but the Spirit knows. I pray in tongues and the spirit who gives me the tongue prays God’s perfect will for your life at that moment through me. When you speak in tongues you actually submit your tongue to the Holy Spirit. This is same as submitting your will to Jesus.

    Question 2
    Also I want you to tell us what you are saying when you speak in tongues?
    I won’t know what I pray for unless it is in public and there is an interpretation. If there is no interpretation it was a normal tongue.
    Remember I said varieties of tongues.

    I have heard people saying that God reveals to them sometimes what they are praying for but I have never had this happen to me. As far as I know according to the Word only public tongues will be interpreted.
    I will say Lord I am praying for so and so and then switch over to tongues, most times I just pray in tongues without something specific as I know the Holy Spirit is using me to pray his will for someone or something in the world.
    When I pray in tongues it is done by faith. I do not know what I am praying for when I pray in my own tongue given to me by the Holy Spirit. The same as I believe in what Jesus has done for me by faith.

    Question 3
    I would like you to go and find the verse and quote it here where it states that you have to have an interpreter?

    1 Cor 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the INTERPRETATION of tongues.
    I am sure this is good enough?

    1 Cor 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
    You see public tongues are for the edification of the church, private tongues is for the edification of the individual.

    Jude v 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost

    I hope this answers your questions.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    I will answer you questions asap. I added spaces into your comment just to make it easier to read.

  • Harry

    Am I going to get a reply?
    Anybody?

    [Edit: Please see

    While waiting, you can go over all the answers you have been given and all the questions that you have ignored.]

  • Burning Lamp

    Am I missing something here – the issue about Angus Buchan is much more than speaking in tongues. This is a pardon the expression – a bunny trail. :-)

    Sincere believers can disagree on this and use scripture to support their position. Some speak in tongues and some do not. It is a private matter. Keep it to yourself and don’t go around boasting about it and making an issue of it Harry. It has nothing to do with the doctrine of salvation. The teaching that evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongue is in error. Harry, take a look at the core issues here and hopefully you will see the error of Angus’s ways.

  • louise

    Hi Harry,

    May I interject by saying all what you have said I agree with and I seem to do what you do. Strange though as it may seem I have never had a release when hearing it in public and have often felt as if its spoken out of turn. Perhaps its because I tend to think that people lack LOVE and yet its the fleshy gifts they strive for. It gives me cold shivers which run down my spine when I hear it. Anything to do with the flesh and man I run away from. When I do speak tongues its always between GOD and me, and yet I know lovely lovely people tending for the faith who do not have that Gift, yet want it. I see so much of it in the faith movement who I believe are part of the great apostasy so my question is which is the true tongues and which is the false. Remember satan has a counterfiet and in all my times of attending church I have heard more false than real tongues spoken. For me my answer is let GOD deal with us on a one to one level when it comes to the gifts and lets no fight amongst each other and spit and quarrel, instead let our love shine and help each other understand what truth is.
    Thank you.

  • louise

    Angus has error!!!!!!!!!!!! Where…..just kidding. Sadly he is another who will have to stand before GOD and say but I did it in your name. Sometimes in our walk with GOD he will show us time and time again on how wrong we are but we will not give up our ways as our life style does not permit it to do so. Angus has made a small fortune and profited much out of the Gospel. Just as Balaam had done and yet it took a donkey to tell him to stop. GOD may still use a donkey. Smiles. lets hope that all who have gone astray will come back to the truth though I doubt it as the scriptures tell us narrow is the way, and there be few that find it. I pray that I will never lose the truth as it can happen to the anyone.

  • louise

    May I ask was there an offering basket at these might men conferences. Thank u

  • Burning Lamp

    Good words Louise. Yes, there are counterfeits and we need to be discerning and I think you put the tongues issue in perspective. Those who go spouting off in public at the drop of a hat are most likely displaying a counterfeit and operating in the flesh. The Holy Spirit does not call attention to Himself and does not glorify man. I know one church that does believe speaking in tongues is for today but does not allow it in corporate worship where it cannot be tested. It is not viewed as a gift that makes one superior to another. That is not of God. I know mature believers who speak in tongues and those who do not. It is not a barometer of spiritual maturity. Those who interpret that it is not for today should not blanketly condemn those who do and say it is of the devil. Some do that and that is not right either. Charity should prevail in these areas.

    If Sir Angus speaks publicly in tongues which I don’t know one way or the other as I have never been to one of his meetings,it would be an indication of a false spirit. That goes for the gibberish that comes out of the TV preachers who do this for effect or out of their flesh. There is no interpretation or order as the Bible directs.

  • Elmarie A

    Burning Lamp

    This is a pardon the expression – a bunny trail. :-)

    Yip you may say it a bunny trail yip. :-)

    louise

    May I ask was there an offering basket at these might men conferences. Thank u

    There always is and it is always part of these gatherings.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Heya BL

    Wazzzupp? I am back as you can see… let’s hope I don’t need another holiday ;)

    None of these guys would dare answer any letters becuase they don’t know how. They can’t answer the questions so they hide in their cracks like the roaches that they are.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    Sorry for the delay. I asked you, to tell me if your tongues are earthly or otherworldly. You have given me every verse to prove that tongues were an earthly language as the disciples needed to go out and spread the gospel to other nations who spoke other languages.

    So?? Please provide me scripture to prove to me that the babble you speak is biblical? If not please find a country out there who speaks your language.

    Harry, please go read this: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/07/18/speaking-in-tongues/ I wrote this entire aritlce just for you.

  • Patrick Ölund

    1Cor 13:10-13 this is about heaven. In heaven we don’t need tongues.

  • Elmarie A

    Patrick Ölund

    1Cor 13:10-13 this is about heaven. In heaven we don’t need tongues.

    Quote the verses in context please.

    1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (Amplified Bible)

    8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy ([a]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

    9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).

    10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).

    11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.

    12 For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as [b]in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand [c]fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been [d]fully and clearly known and understood [[e]by God].

    13 And so faith, hope, love abide [faith–conviction and belief respecting man’s relation to God and divine things; hope–joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love–true affection for God and man, growing out of God’s love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    The meaning of this in context is :

    Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

    13:8-13 Charity is much to be preferred to the gifts on which the Corinthians prided themselves. From its longer continuance. It is a grace, lasting as eternity. The present state is a state of childhood, the future that of manhood. Such is the difference between earth and heaven. What narrow views, what confused notions of things, have children when compared with grown men! Thus shall we think of our most valued gifts of this world, when we come to heaven. All things are dark and confused now, compared with what they will be hereafter. They can only be seen as by the reflection in a mirror, or in the description of a riddle; but hereafter our knowledge will be free from all obscurity and error. It is the light of heaven only, that will remove all clouds and darkness that hide the face of God from us. To sum up the excellences of charity, it is preferred not only to gifts, but to other graces, to faith and hope. Faith fixes on the Divine revelation, and assents thereto, relying on the Divine Redeemer. Hope fastens on future happiness, and waits for that; but in heaven, faith will be swallowed up in actual sight, and hope in enjoyment. There is no room to believe and hope, when we see and enjoy. But there, love will be made perfect. There we shall perfectly love God. And there we shall perfectly love one another. Blessed state! how much surpassing the best below! God is love, 1Jo 4:8,16. Where God is to be seen as he is, and face to face, there charity is in its greatest height; there only will it be perfected.

  • Grant C

    1Cor 13:10-13 this is about heaven. In heaven we don’t need tongues.

    We don’t need tongues in this life either. What could possibly be the need for tongues today? God created all our languages and it seems far more worthy to praise Him in our own tongue, understanding ourselves the extent and content of our praise.

    We certainly will not convince unbelievers of the Truth simply because we speak in tongues either, we are not authors of Faith, and for evangelizing we have the complete Word of God in the Bible, the translations, translators and most importantly, the Holy Spirit.

    Certainly, all things are possible for God and yes, if He wanted to give someone the gift of tongues for purposes which we do not understand, it is not our place to question it.

    However, Scriptural support is lacking for the extreme prevalence of claimants to the gift of tongues. This furthermore adds improbability to the cause and begs the question as to whether such a divisive practice would be in accordance with the perfection of the rest God’s plan.

    There seems to be general consensus among Biblical Christians that the Word of Faith movement is, by and large, false Christianity. Does it not therefore follow that speaking in tongues, which they so strongly advocate as evidential to faith, is the only gift which they feel cannot be categorically disproved.

  • paula

    I stand in awe of what I read on peoples comments regarding prophets, prophecies and the like. I would like to know who you are and what god has called you to bring down His chosen. What gospel are you preaching? Because I do not recognize it. It sounds to me that you are delusional, and have not really known who God truly is. You see, all I can hear you say about these people, is judgmental. I’m sure God did not give you the gift of judging others, the word does say ‘do not judge ,lest you be judged’. If you really know and understand the word of God, then you would know that what these ones are saying is from God. I pity you, why not spend some time in God’s presence and see what He has to say to you, if you can remember how to get in touch with Him. Get a life!

  • Elmarie A

    paula

    I stand in awe of what I read on peoples comments regarding prophets, prophecies and the like. I would like to know who you are and what god has called you to bring down His chosen. What gospel are you preaching? Because I do not recognize it. It sounds to me that you are delusional, and have not really known who God truly is. You see, all I can hear you say about these people, is judgmental. I’m sure God did not give you the gift of judging others, the word does say ‘do not judge ,lest you be judged’. If you really know and understand the word of God, then you would know that what these ones are saying is from God. I pity you, why not spend some time in God’s presence and see what He has to say to you, if you can remember how to get in touch with Him. Get a life!

    People like you will stand in awe because you may be blind. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (Amplified Bible) 10 And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, 12 In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.

    You know this is why the false churches today are slaughtering the sheep they simply do not teach the true Gospel.The way you used Matthew 7:1 are not used in context as you where taught only this piece ‘do not judge ,lest you be judged’ you have no idea what the verse mean or says in context and do not even know that the Bible should be used in context.

    It is indeed sad to see that People like yourself are lead around by the nose and told lies by the false churches. It is shamefull to see this happening more and more the world is deceived in preparation for the anti-chirist. May God have mercy on our souls.

    Please quote Scripture in context this is what the verse really says and the real meaning:

    Matthew 7:1-6 (Amplified Bible)

    Matthew 7
    1DO NOT judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves.

    2For just as you judge and criticize and condemn others, you will be judged and criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you [use to] deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you.

    3Why do you [a]stare from without at the [b]very small particle that is in your brother’s eye but do not become aware of and consider the beam [c]of timber that is in your own eye?

    4Or how can you say to your brother, Let me get the tiny particle out of your eye, when there is the beam [d]of timber in your own eye?

    5You hypocrite, first get the beam of timber out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the tiny particle out of your brother’s eye.

    6Do not give that which is holy (the sacred thing) to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before hogs, lest they trample upon them with their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.

    Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

    7:1-6 We must judge ourselves, and judge of our own acts, but not make our word a law to everybody. We must not judge rashly, nor pass judgment upon our brother without any ground. We must not make the worst of people. Here is a just reproof to those who quarrel with their brethren for small faults, while they allow themselves in greater ones. Some sins are as motes, while others are as beams; some as a gnat, others as a camel. Not that there is any sin little; if it be a mote, or splinter, it is in the eye; if a gnat, it is in the throat; both are painful and dangerous, and we cannot be easy or well till they are got out. That which charity teaches us to call but a splinter in our brother’s eye, true repentance and godly sorrow will teach us to call a beam in our own. It is as strange that a man can be in a sinful, miserable condition, and not be aware of it, as that a man should have a beam in his eye, and not consider it; but the god of this world blinds their minds. Here is a good rule for reprovers; first reform thyself.

    Paula take care and do not be deceived by the wolves prowling (false prophets) around seeking to devour the sheep as they are dressed in sheeps clothing and possibly even deceiving the elect, God chosen ones.

    Matthew 7:14-16 (Amplified Bible)

    14But the gate is narrow (contracted [a]by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.(A)

    15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.(B)

    16You will [b]fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?

    Matthew 24:23-25 (Amplified Bible)

    23 If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!–do not believe it.

    24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).

    25 See, I have warned you beforehand.

    Paula Please go study your Bible and the above Scriptures in context before you come back and make any further comment.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    paula

    Of course you don’t recognise the gospel I preach which is straight from the Bible – Because you have never read your bible, and therefore can’t compare what you think is true to anything. I bet you wont go and pick up your bible either and check to see if what I have written here in the article is true? Eh? Nah, you are way to smart for that.

  • Michael

    The WOF and aligned movements are a demonic deception and are so evil that it blinds one spiritually…a real spiritual booby-trap. I know I was deceived by this movement…some time back. A distortion of the scriptures…very dangerous and nearly destroyed my faith but thanks to the gracious mercy of my Heavenly Father I was guided back on track.They use the words “Fruit of the spirit” but this is seen by them as success materially, they are fond of labeling those Christians that follow a holy and righteous way of living as legalists and hypocritical…they go lightly on sin…they talk of love but really do not show concern and are shallow and glib.They find scripture (out out of context) to boost self and achievement.Poverty and sickness to them is seen as lack of faith and a state of sin…they hate those that expose them and they are people-pleasers and align themselves to a worldly spirit. They confuse conviction with condemnation and are a lover of works rather than mercy and grace and see themselves as little gods that use the name the name of Jesus (in a blasphemous fashion)…ie “name it and claim it”. They are carnal and rely on a mystic approach to find spirituality.They will defend a Benny Hinn ,Joyce Meyer ,Angus Buchan and co , zealously rather than defend the integrity of the Bible and the true measage of the gospels.They see these preachers as God’s annointed and warn those that expose them “as not to speak againgst God’s annointed”. They idolise men and not God. When one points out error and sin in an individual’s life they will block you with another scripture out of context…their favourite “do not judge”…they manipulate scripture and their followers with doctrines to further their causes.
    I know this as I was once in a church that did exactly this. I was born-again and converted in a non -charismatic church before I sadly took this route but was guided out by the Holy Spirit. Praise God for Christians like Debs and Elmarie and Grant that have the courage and integrity to stand up against these sinister goings-on in the church to-day.
    Harry talks of Angus’s fruit and honesty and Debs lack of it but the truth is the very opposite….Debs builds on the Rock whereas Angus’s on the sand and is flawed as is his true testimony…Angus has a lot of repenting to do…told a lie in his book “Faith like Potatoes”…apart from other issues and he knows this. Angus is a very likeable man and will appeal to man and could be used by God if he repented and started to preach the real message of salvation…to save souls from hell.

  • Paul

    I think that if people study Scripture and not their “Bibles” and stop listening to Pulpit Parrots and study the true Scriptures and if they are “Born Again” they will have truth revealed to them by the Holy Ghost.

    If you do not know the Messiah, you cannot understand the Scriptures, He said that himself. there is no point in arguing with the unsaved, they cannot understand; the best that can be done is to give them the Gospel.

    A lot of the comments on this website are obviously from people who are seeking but are not yet convicted but also from people who are outright antichrist and need prayer.

  • Marius

    This is sickening. We are all fighting for the same cause, now we go and criticize one another. As soon as someone’s church, or his gatherings becomes too big then people will start criticizing. Look at the early church, they grew in leaps and bounds and thousands got saved, where they criticized? Off course yes. Why is it that so many go to a meeting of Angus and gets saved there. Because God uses people as vessels to Build His Kingdom, isn’t that what we are all here to do? Build God’s Kingdom?

    If you search long enough you’ll eventually find something that concerns you. If you look at my life, sure you’ll find mistakes, a lot of them. How about yours? Angus has the fruit on the tree. Most of these comments does not at all represent what we as Christians stand for, instead of uniting, we are arguing. Is that what God wants for His people? If I wasn’t a New Born Christian and I came onto this site I would be afraid of becoming one, I would be confused.

    I know most us has good intentions with these comments, so let’s fight the cause and not one another.

    Let Him who is without sin cast the first stone.

    Blessings
    Marius

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marius

    Do you actually UNDERSTAND the Gospel Truth? Apparently not.

  • Michael

    Marius…Oh boy!!! If only you knew…there are none so blind as those WILL NOT SEE…or some nominal christian attitudes today…just winking at sin…ooooh you must not judge…ok just accommodate and tolerate a little here and there afterall we are not perfect.
    Sounds very similar to the word approach of Satan (serpent)in the garden of Eden.
    You do NOT know the real truth about Angus Buchan.
    DO NOT IDOLISE ANY MAN …LOOK ONLY TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIS WORD>

  • Barry

    I am so saddened in reading through the various posts on this website – what is all this about – if we are to be saved by having 100% correct believes – then logically only one person ever would be saved – think about it – no 2 people believe exactly the same – somewhere we differ – even between husband and wife’s – parents and children we would find some differences if we look hard enough – sjoe what a shame that everybody is being dissected and taken apart – Jesus said to his disciples at one stage that they should leave the people in another town alone for “if they are not against me they are for me” – a lot can be learned from that – it is not about a 100% score on dogma and theory but about the right attitude – Love and Hope and BELIEVING – in Christ. The letter of the word will Kill but the Spirit makes us ALIVE –
    PLEASE I BEG OF YOU START LOVING THOSE EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE – AS JESUS SAID TO PETER COMPLAINING ABOUT JOHN – WHAT HAS HE TO DO WITH YOU –
    LOVE LOVE LOVE

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Barry

    Oh what a nice excuse to follow false teaching. You see Barry all born again Christians DO ACTUALLY all agree on the same theological teachings. So gotacha there pal.

    >> Jesus said to his disciples at one stage that they should leave the people in another town alone for “if they are not against me they are for me”

    Are you that person Jesus is speaking about because you refuse to follow correct biblical teaching?

    Hmm

  • Burning Lamp

    Barry, your definition of love is incorrect and your understanding of the Gospel must also be skewed. The Bible lays out clearly the path to becoming a believer. Beyond that there are areas of disagreement that are negotiable. The Gospel is NOT negotiable. And it is the first thing that cults and false teachers twist. Sadly your view of love includes embracing that which is contraary to God’s Word and is NOT the love that Jesus spoke about.

  • Pieter

    Deborah & Burning Lamp, I find this site – discerningtheworld – utterly depressing. Where’s the love? The immediate impression created is one of making others look bad in order to make yourself look good. How does that fit in with “the love that Jesus spoke about”?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pieter (or is that BARRY) – Talk about lying and cheating. No wondering you side with false teachers. You can’t even stick to using 1 username.

    Oh there is tons of love, for all those who are being caught up in false teaching, who we want to free through the TRUTH THAT IS JESUS CHRIST. If you thinking false teachers are ok, then I need to ask you WHERE IS THE LOVE.

    Knowing the Bible and exposing false teachers who go out of their way to lie, cheat and steal, not just money but peoples SOULS might comes across to you as all knowing, but how else do people learn the truth if I am to shut up because people like you don’t want to hear the truth and want me to be quiet.

    Look in the mirror Pieter, you don’t know Arthur from Marthur – spiritually speaking. If you want help, we can help you. If you don’t want help, then please, stop insulting us and go away.

  • Pieter

    Dear Deborah, you should apologise to Barry – we are not the one and same – perhaps check facts and details before making such comments.

    Furthermore, your response does not surprise me – much in line with what I expected. Still no sign of “the love that Jesus spoke about”. You’re in my prayers – I pray that you will one day discover what the love is that Jesus spoke about. Blessings & Love.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pieter and Barry (YOU ARE THE SAME PERSON)

    Get a life, really. Your IP address matches.

    Your comments will be deleted from now on.

  • James

    Seriously.. “Discerning the World” you have become the dictator of your own religion. Deleting comments is very much like a dictatorship.. Clearly not an open forum. Very much like another forum called http://whywontgodhealamputees.com

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    James

    I can delete comments on MY ON BLOG thank you very much. I SPEAK THE TRUTH, THE GOSPEL TRUTH, If you want to come and speak lies, then I will protect my blog from those LIES. If you don’t like it go create your own blog and go and write endless articles about why you hate me so. :) mkay? great!

  • Michael

    Marius and James…IS THE TRUTH & INTEGRITY of the teacher,preacher or leader posing in the name of Christ important to you??? A person with the precious message of where one spends eternity MUST BE BELIEVABLE.

    Hmmmm….

    1)BENNY HINN
    PFO [Personal Freedom Outreach] continues to investigate preacher Benny Hinn’s claim that his father once was mayor of Jaffa, Israel (The Quarterly Journal, July-September 1992, pp. 1, 10-14).

    That investigation has revealed that for a number of political and historical reasons, Costandi Hinn, a Jaffa- born Arab, could not have been mayor of an almost totally Jewish city. Jaffa technically did not exist after 1948 because it was merged with all-Jewish Tel Aviv forming one municipality called Tel Aviv-Jaffa. There was no city of Jaffa when Benny Hinn was born.

    Untrue…this is a LIE

    2)ANGUS BUCHAN
    Page 18…Book…”Faith like potatoes”
    Angus Buchan wrote;
    “Jill was kept busy running the home and looking after the babies: our first son Andrew and our daughters Lindi and Robyn were born there (Kabwe Zambia).”

    Untrue…this is a LIE.

    Hi Barry,
    Hope and trust you are well.

    I find this (attached) written in a highly publicised book and film disturbing.

    I am also a Christian and love the Lord but a man of God telling lies,where is the integrity.

    To put the record straight : Andrew was born (Andrew Travers Riordan) on 11th March 1970)@ Mothers Hospital, Durban and delivered by Caesarean section by surgeon Mr Harry Brenner.
    Lindi was born (Lindsey-Ann Riordan) on 12th March 1971 @ False Bay Hospital in Fish Hoek WP and delivered by Dr John Anderson of Somerset West.

  • Burning Lamp

    Thanks Michael for digging for the truth and exposing lies. Sadly, Christians are often like vacuums – they suck in all kinds of dirt.

  • Michael

    Yes…Jill left her first husband (who incidently is a truly saved believer) and took herself and the 2 children born from that marriage and forced a divorce on her husband with the backing and force of her parents who contested this and got many Christians involved in SA and missionaries in Zambia to try and save this marriage…there are a lot of witnesses that can verify this. Jill insisted on a divorce despite the fact that her husband made several trips to a then hostile Zambia to try and effect a reconciliation. He eventually gave up trying which was a big mistake…sadly and erroneously it was the church that that gave this wicked advice.Jill married Angus as a divorced woman…her ex-husband got married many years later and still regrets it believing that both he and Jill are in adulterous relationships according to scripture…so does Michael Whennen (wisereaction site)…Christian authority on marriage in Australia. The sad thing is that Angus stole the affection away from their father of these two children because of vast distance of 2 separate countries and later when as young teenagers he made another huge effort to affect reconciliation in Greytown…KZN (now very much adults with children of their own). The very sad thing is that the ex has sort reconciliation with these 2 children without success and Angus who preaches reconciliation of children wives etc….blah…blah…discourages contact…..and lives a lie …so does Jill. The truth has been kept quiet for many years…but many people know this and are huge COWARDS and just keep quiet. The church is very weak today in the area of marriage and divorce and adultery are rife…so called christians are just as bad as unsaved…ie Jonty Rhodes and Ray Mc Cauley to name only 2.
    This whole thing makes “Faith like potatoes” a total farce and a slap in the face of WOF sentiment …not to mention even mainstream following.
    Hypocrisy of the first degree…I really wonder what God thinks of all this.

  • Michael

    PS Correction on birthdates of Andrew and Lindi…Andy (11th March 1970) and Lindi (12th March 1971)… FIXED

  • Burning Lamp

    The hypocrisy and lie of Angus B. is reprehensible. His movie should be called “Faith Like Rotten Stinking Potatoes”. These people have no consciences! Why do not the facts come out? All those who remain silent will be held accountable at the Bema Seat.

  • Daniel

    Michael wrote:

    Yes…Jill left her first husband (who incidently is a truly saved believer) and took herself and the 2 children born from that marriage and forced a divorce on her husband with the backing and force of her parents who contested this and got many Christians involved in SA and missionaries in Zambia to try and save this marriage…there are a lot of witnesses that can verify this. Jill insisted on a divorce despite the fact that her husband made several trips to a then hostile Zambia to try and effect a reconciliation. He eventually gave up trying which was a big mistake…sadly and erroneously it was the church that that gave this wicked advice.Jill married Angus as a divorced woman…her ex-husband got married many years later and still regrets it believing that both he and Jill are in adulterous relationships according to scripture…so does Michael Whennen (wisereaction site)…Christian authority on marriage in Australia. The sad thing is that Angus stole the affection away from their father of these two children because of vast distance of 2 separate countries and later when as young teenagers he made another huge effort to affect reconciliation in Greytown…KZN (now very much adults with children of their own). The very sad thing is that the ex has sort reconciliation with these 2 children without success and Angus who preaches reconciliation of children wives etc….blah…blah…discourages contact…..and lives a lie …so does Jill. The truth has been kept quiet for many years…but many people know this and are huge COWARDS and just keep quiet. The church is very weak today in the area of marriage and divorce and adultery are rife…so called christians are just as bad as unsaved…ie Jonty Rhodes and Ray Mc Cauley to name only 2.
    This whole thing makes “Faith like potatoes” a total farce and a slap in the face of WOF sentiment …not to mention even mainstream following.
    Hypocrisy of the first degree…I really wonder what God thinks of all this.

    Micahel / Deborah / Anyone,

    Could you please confirm for me if this is true or not? As in, can this be verified anywhere? Is there a secondary source or anything of the like?

    Thank you,
    Daniel.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Daniel

    Oh yes it is as true as can be. I will let Michael tell you the story when he comes to comment here shortly :) He is the best First and Secondary source you ever need…

  • M

    My word people, David killed, committed aldultry and broke just about evey commandment in the WORD OF GOD and still God loved him… Peter was a coward and he became the rock… Paul persecuted christians yet he wrote 2/3 of the NEW TESTAMENT. The Pharisees could qoute the old testament from start to finish but they were vipors with loved spreading their venom on the social bloggs of the day!

    You can only expose a fellow christian if you contronted them personally with witnesses and they refuse to repent.

    What are you achieving by this…. Who needs satan if we have people setting bloggs like this to discuss other people in the name of exposing the false the teachers of our day…

    Why don’t you rather use the time spent on researching other to preach the gospel….

    Unless you are willing to confront these so called false teachers personally I suggest you stop this. It is not gloryfing the God you so loudly profess to serve.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    M

    I’ve answered that exact question before asked by someone else, if you would please just browse through this website and find it, I would appreciate it greatly thanks.

  • Michael

    David was only made right with God when he repented…he most certainly would have lost his salvation if he never did…Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:9-11).

    The modern church abuses grace and goes lightly on sin…the fruit of a truly born-again person hates sin but not the sinner. When we tred lightly and turn a blind eye what is happening in a world that is totally insensitive to evil and accept standards that are so low we become part of the bigger problem…the problem is that we have not the guts or honesty to stand up against sin. It is the responsibility of every Christian to walk in the light….not only in word but in deed…unholiness is totally unacceptable in the Christian front-line and makes mockery of Christ’s atonement. Ofcourse we all sin but there obviously must be an intolerable attitude towards sin (especially when we know it in ourselves) as it destroys our relationships with God and leads to death, repentance is a sincere prayer to the Saviour and a sincere commitment and action to put the matter right. If we continue in dishonesty and untruthfulness we are only deceiving ourselves.
    We continually find that God’s grace at Calvary is being abused and scriptures are being quoted out of context by the modern church so that we can excuse ourselves when we deliberately chose to disobey and ignore which is blatantly wrong and continue with false justification. A leader that is in the public eye has an additional responsibility not only to his family,friends and audience but to the general public as well…if he really honours God he will not deceive and tell lies. A true believer must always welcome criticism because this is one of the traits that you find in real converted Christians. Word of Faith preachers,teachers and prophets cannot take criticism and hate it. The fruit of true Holy Spirit filled and led believer (true humility and not false or put-on pretense) is to allow criticism if it is true and bonafide.One of the most destructive sins is pride and this stands in the way. David accepted Nathan’s harsh and correct admonishment and acted upon it. A real friend admonishes you in love and enemy will flatter and deceive you.
    This forum or blog is completely misunderstood by certain Christians that feed on the word of faith gospel which elivates man. The purpose of this blog is to promote exactly what the scriptures simply say from God’s perspective. Mere mankind looks ridiculous when he tries to manipulate the scriptures to feed his own desires.W.O.F followers will always defend man at the expense of the truth…they will stick up for a person they admire instead of trying to re-read the doctrine he teachers and study it. They are followers of man and not God.

  • Burning Lamp

    Well said Michael!

  • Harry

    Hi Harry here.
    Thought I would pay you guys a visit and see if you are doing something eternal for the Kingdom or still criticizing everyone else who are doing what needs to be done.
    Seeing that no one has commented since May last year I take it that you lot have decided to do something constructive!
    This makes my heart, and I am sure the Fathers heart very, very happy!!!!!!!!!!

  • Robbie

    Gr8 Harry. Does this mean we will see you again next year May? Pity you haven’t learnt much in a year…

  • Rob

    I didn’t read the whole article but I can see that you are trying to prove that the man is fake.
    What I see in response is that there are some people who believe they are Christians and are defending the man and criticizing you.

    I have an opinion about it and that is:
    1. I am very careful when some man or woman has a big crowd following him or her.
    2. How can someone defend a certain ‘big man of God’ without knowing the guy? The only thing you know about him is how he is during a meeting. You don’t know how he is at home or anywhere else.
    It’s the same with people who are crazy about actors and rock stars, as though they are friends with their idol.
    3. I think it’s ok to warn people after you’ve tested a false man of God. Jesus was also clear about that.
    4. I think your warning are for that group of Christians who need to be activated to take the Word seriously, so that they test them self whether they follow God or men.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rob

    It’s clear you have not read ALL the info on Angus and his friends. (just as you did not read the entire article) Read that first then come back and comment again – it’s a lot of reading, I hope you will manage.

    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/1-people/angus-buchan-shalom-ministries/

  • Mariette

    Wonderful news! Angus Buchan will host a new series entitled: “Family Time with Angus” as from 16 January on e-tv. It is a “Thought for the Day” type of program running for 5 minutes from Monday to Friday just before the 6am news, from 5:55am.

  • Robbie

    Mariette,

    Same message for you as for Rob. Please read!

    DTW: >>>It’s clear you have not read ALL the info on Angus and his friends. (just as you did not read the entire article) Read that first then come back and comment again – it’s a lot of reading, I hope you will manage.<<<

  • Graham Williams

    Firstly, I agree there are a huge number of wolves around and it is right that they are exposed in order to protect the church.

    However, I see very little wrong with Angus Buchan’s ministry. How can you compare him to someone like Tod Bentley?

    In the film Angus prayed for a woman who had apparently died. I would have done the same if asked.

    It also appears that Angus has used his wealth from farming to support the Church – very different from those who take from the church to fund a lavish lifestyle. I watched a documentary about him called ‘God’s Farmer’ and I found him to be a genuine christian with right motives. The criticisms on here seem like ‘straining a gnat’.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Graham

    You see very little wrong with Angus because you refuse to do the research on him. Just you wait for my next article, maybe that will open your eyes? Maybe not. I pray you love the TRUTH more than Angus Buchan.

  • A Discerner

    Thank you Deborah for researching this article – I found it very helpful, especially the connection to Dominionism. You are to be highly commended for taking everything someone says to the Word of God for testing first, a habit that many who believe in extra revelation today, do not seem to do. Reading most of the many comments has made me again believe it better to just post articles without allowing commenting – that way, people remain focussed on the actual article rather than all the peripherals that take people off on so many tangents; and it allows you more time for research. I pray you will continue to be discerning.

  • Robbie

    Graham

    If I play for a team, I am associated with that team in more than one way. I have the same goal, mascot and game plan.
    Angus is teaming with Rick Joyner.
    Rick is spreading the “rumour” that Tattoo Todd repented. All these guys are in the same camp.

    He is even telling the nation that Reinhard Bonnke is “a true man of God”? A man that is more interested in having his “salvation” cards signed than spreading bibles. One that neglects telling the Muslims they serve a false god?

    It is ignorance that allows us to be outnumbered by these “teams” and we should search their game plan don’t you think?
    So many prefers to lie down and slumber… armour off, thrown to one side.

  • Tim

    [deleted – thank you for insulting me in your own snyde manner – it’s not appreciated hence I deleted your comment]

  • Tjoopie

    Hi, stem saam met jou.

    So ruk terug was een van my vrou se vriendinne vreeslik verontreg want die hoof van ons kerk as jy dit so wil noem het vir haar gese hy en sy aanbid nie diesefde god nie.Ek het toe ook gese, omdat ek redelik liberaal is en darem ‘n paar goed weet en verstaan dat dit dalk ‘n bietjie taai is,

    maar het die afgelope week of wat bietjie wakker geword, het van Walter J Veith(amazing discoveries) se videos gekyk. Baie liggies het aangegaan. Ek dink nie die mense besef wat se fyn lyn op die einde van die dag tussen reg en verkeerd is nie.

    Volgens my is sonde om God se plan vir jou lewe te mis.Obviously al die ander goed ook, maar ek dink “Sy plan” cover redelik dat jy nie daai goed doen nie.

    Jy het uit die aard van die saak goeie kennis oor die magte wat die wereld beheer en ek dink die grootste probleem is ‘n gebrek aan kennis by meeste mense. Sodra mense die regte agtergrond het, sal meer mense ook besef waaroor die artikel gaan.

    My probleem met Buchan was toe hulle dit te veel begin doen.Met die eerste het ek gese nice, goeie werk iemand doen dam iets.Toe in plaas van hou dit 1 keer per jaar, toe word dit herhaal, ek reken toe dit was net vir geldmaak, maar dankie dat jy dit vir my opgeklaar het, het altyd ‘n snaakse gevoel oor die storie gehad

  • andries

    who are you to judge

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    andries

    My name is Deborah and the Bible commands us to TEST the Spirit, and judge the WORDS that ‘preachers’ speak to see if they line up with scripture. :)

  • Louise

    Many of you who follow false teachers and so called prophets deserve whats coming to you. you simply wont listen and i must stop coming here cos i get mad with stupid silly people.

  • Brother Tyrone

    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18 – And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    I read different parts of this article and I didn’t recall you stating that God works the above miracles through your ministry or does He do them at all any longer? I’m not taking sides on this as that is not who I am in this case. I have never read that IT IS FINISHED when it comes to His church and the age.

    What makes anyone else false and you’re not false? I’m not saying you are false, but isn’t that a valid question? The word is clear that by their fruit you shall know them. Testing the spirits is good, but if you don’t know the real Spirit, how do you know the false? What does that mean to every other believer and how does one explain it?

    You mentioned that there would not be revival in the last days, but pain and suffering for Christ sake. This will happen, but isn’t the work of the cross revival? When a person lays their pride down and calls out to Jesus believing He is the Son of God and was raised from the dead, are they not then born again?

    There are many false apostles, prophets, teachers, and Christ’s in the world today and I’m not calling anyone false or truth because the Lord has not asked me to do that directly. What I am sensing is that we need to know Him and His Word. We must be discerning and walk in love preaching the truth and allowing Him to work His Kingdom through us. If there is something that is false, or counterfeit, then there is something out there that is not false and is truth. We can’t condemn the other (false) without ensuring that the truth is known by the Word of God and with God’s power, signs, and wonders through Jesus Christ.

    I have never heard of Angus until literally last night when I was doing some research on something else. I will keep my thoughts to myself as a diligent student of the Word of God before I make my judgment.

    I was sucked into a false prophetic ministry before so I am a very cautious person and one thing that really bugs me is that we have so many people calling so many people out as being false, but very few people presenting the Truth. We cannot have one without the other and we are causing more harm than good and confusing the Body of Christ, creating factions, and demonizing people who may not be false, but misguided.

    I’m interested in hearing your response as we approach even darker times. Romans 5:20 talking about the law and what Jesus did could potentially be leveraged in any era where sin is abounding. Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    In Christ,

    Brother Tyrone

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Tyrone

    >> Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18 – And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    >> I read different parts of this article and I didn’t recall you stating that God works the above miracles through your ministry or does He do them at all any longer? I’m not taking sides on this as that is not who I am in this case. I have never read that IT IS FINISHED when it comes to His church and the age.

    Please read the whole article, not just different parts of it.

    I am going to post my entire article here:

    Speaking in Tongues

    Back in the day at Pentecost, in the upper room, a special gift was bestowed on the disciples that they would be able to go out and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ successfully. One of the gifts was the ability to speak in tongues. Many people today who speak in tongues today seem to think that this gift of tongues was a heavenly language. But this is not true. The gift of tongues bestowed on those in the upper room spoke an earthly language. The gift given to the disciples enabled them to communicate with people from other nations who spoke other languages, how else could they spread the gospel.

    Acts 2:6-11 ”Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.” And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?” And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?” Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,” Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,” Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.”

    Now…

    All genuine Christians believe that the gift of tongues existed as mentioned in Scripture.

    1 Corinthians 12:8-11 “8To one is given in and through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] a message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] a word of knowledge and understanding according to the same [Holy] Spirit; 9To another [wonder-working] faith by the same [Holy] Spirit, to another the extraordinary powers of healing by the one Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues. 11All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses”.

    And the Bible clearly states that the Corinthians spoke an earthly language and God alone understands all languages. Corinth, was a market visited by many a merchant from Asia, Africa, and Europe, and had a wildly mixed population speaking many a different language. To exercise of the gift of tongues in preaching bought many an unbeliever to salvation.

    1Cor 14:2 ”For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.”

    G1100 γλῶσσα glossa (glows`-sah) n.
    1. the tongue
    2. (by implication) a language
    3. (specially) a language not naturally acquired

    1 Corinthians 12:10 mentions the gift of speaking in tongues and also mentions the gift of interpreting tongues. Tongues had to be interpreted!

    The ‘gift of tongues’ given to the early church was given as the Holy Spirit willed. Because the Holy Spirit is sovereign. No one has the right to demand that he be given any certain gift or gifts as an evidence of the Holy Spirit’s baptism. Tongues was certainly not evidence of salvation. For example, some people in the Corinthian church were given the gift of tongues to edify the church – this tongue was an earthly language.

    The Corinthian church for example did not have the Bible, the gift of tongues was needed in authenticating the Message that was delivered as being DIVINE; these signs followed the proclamation of the truth.

    When a person accepts Jesus Christ into their life they instantly receive the Holy Spirit who comes to abide in them – this alone is a gift.

    Do not confuse tongues as being a fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit are mentioned in:

    Galatians 5:22-23; “22But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,23Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].”

    However…

    Paul ended up rebuking the Corinthians over and over again because they did not understand the gospel. Paul scolded the Corinthians for misusing the gift and making a mockery of the OT fulfillment of prophecy by Isaiah. This prophecy came about due to Israel’s disobedience to God.

    Isaiah 28:11; ”11No, but [the Lord will teach the rebels in a more humiliating way] by men with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people [says Isaiah, and teach them His lessons].”

    Paul points out the OT Scripture of Isaiah 28:11 to the Corinthians because they (being Jews) should know the Law well…but they don’t.

    1 Corinthians 12:21; “In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord”.

    Paul uses the reference to Isaiah to show them how they lack in knowing of OT scripture, therefore they lack even more when it comes to the gospel. Isaiah specifically says that tongues will be used as a tool to preach the word of God to Israel, not the way the Corinthians are using it. It also says that even though they hear the word of God they still will not listen.

    The gift of tongues was used as a sign only to unbelievers:

    1 Corinthians 14:22 ”22Thus [unknown] tongues are meant for a [supernatural] sign, not for believers but for unbelievers [on the point of believing], while prophecy (inspired preaching and teaching, interpreting the divine will and purpose) is not for unbelievers [on the point of believing] but for believers.”

    To use tongues in any other way is unbiblical and when used the gospel was preached and people were saved because they heard the message, the sign of the gift of tongues followed only because the truth had been preached and the unbeliever was then on the point of believing.

    The Corinthians turned tongues speaking into a mockery. They used it for self glory and self gratification and they puffed themselves up making one person seem more spiritual than another. Paul lambastes them and calls the Corinthians spiritually immature and childish in their thinking.

    1 Corinthians 14:20 ”20Brethren, do not be children [immature] in your thinking; continue to be babes in [matters of] evil, but in your minds be mature [men].”

    The Corinthians never grew up. They remained spiritually immature. They failed to study the scriptures just like those churches today who follow the Corinthian blueprint.

    Hebrews 5:12-14 “12For even though by this time you ought to be teaching others, you actually need someone to teach you over again the very first principles of God’s Word. You have come to need milk, not solid food. 13For everyone who continues to feed on milk is obviously inexperienced and unskilled in the doctrine of righteousness (of conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action), for he is a mere infant [not able to talk yet]! 14But solid food is for full-grown men, for those whose senses and mental faculties are trained by practice to discriminate and distinguish between what is morally good and noble and what is evil and contrary either to divine or human law.”

    The Corinthians thought they were so spiritual, but the Bible says they were manifesting carnality:

    1 Corinthians 3:1; “HOWEVER, BRETHREN, I could not talk to you as to spiritual [men], but as to nonspiritual [men of the flesh, in whom the carnal nature predominates], as to mere infants [in the new life] in Christ [unable to talk yet!]“

    And there was even gross sin among these spiritual Corinthians:

    1 Corinthians 5:1; ” IT IS actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, impurity of a sort that is condemned and does not occur even among the heathen; for a man has [his own] father’s wife.”

    The gift of tongues was a temporary gift bestowed on people by the Holy Spirit…

    —To preach the gospel to all nations
    —As a sign to confirm the gospel message preached because people would come to be saved thereafter.
    —The fulfilment of OT scripture.

    Once the Bible was written the gift of tongues ceased and was replaced by love and truth.

    1 Corinthians 13:8 ”Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].”

    **** Tongues served their purpose, a very useful one, Now with God’s complete revelation in our hands (the Bible), we do not require signs to manifest it as the Word of the Lord. When preached in power, it authenticates itself.

    Truth = The Word of God

    Paul says that LOVE never fails and this leads us to the 2 commandments that Jesus spoke about in

    Mark 12:30-31 and they are: 30 And you shall love the Lord your God out of and with your whole heart and out of and with all your soul (your life) and out of and with all your mind (with your faculty of thought and your moral understanding) and out of and with all your strength. This is the first and principal commandment. 31 The second is like it and is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.“

    The gift of prophecy (foreseeing the future) too shall be entirely unnecessary as the Bible contains everything you need to know for yesterday, today and tomorrow. God has a stern warning for those with new words, new revelations that fall outside of scripture:

    Revelation 22:18 ”if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”.

    In those days Paul and the other Apostles wrote and prophesied in part – in other words they did not know everything until it was give to them by the Holy Spirit. Paul said in…

    1 Corinthians 13:8-11; “9For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect). 10But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded). 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.

    The perfect = The Word of God

    Truth = The Word of God

    The imperfect, the incomplete = Tongues, prophecy and new knowledge has CEASED!

    When you are a born again Christian you do away with childish things and study the Word of God ONLY as it is perfect in every way.

    Today speaking in tongues and prophesying is self-induced or demonic. If you speak in tongues I urge you to read your Bible and study the matter urgently and rid yourself of this childish behaviour or worse, demonic affliction.

    See following articles:

    See all articles on http://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/2-peoples-names/a/angus-buchan-shalom-ministries/

    The Biblical Holy Spirit vs.The False Unholy Spirit of Fire
    Can Satan Heal?
    Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased?
    False Foundation of Five-Fold Ministry
    Yes, a Future Kingdom, but Not a Kingdom Now
    Dominionism and the Rise of Christian Imperialism

    >> I didn’t recall you stating that God works the above miracles through your ministry

    Regarding boasting and huge churches and large gatherings where the preacher proclaims to lead the group on behalf of God and produce signs and wonders.

    Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

  • April

    Thankful for the article. I too had concerns about the same issues when watching the movie. The road is narrow and the way is hard and few there be that find it. Thank you for being a voice crying out in the wilderness.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    Thanks for your clarification and also for showing that video which SHOULD be self exposing of these false preachers. It is a complete mockery. The gifts of God are NOT for exhibition as a freak circus act. The gifts of God are to be used to edify the church enabling them to grow in their faith and win people to Jesus. How does that video edify anyone apart from edifying the flesh. It shows that they actually have demonic spirits and are mocking God.

    Debs, I agree with most of your last comment. It DOES make sense. However, can I just point one thing out? It may not detract from what you have said but it still needs to be said:

    1 Cor 13 is talking about love. It is discussing love in the context of what worship (in a church) should look like. Therefore, when it says tongues, prophecies shall cease when the perfect has come, it is surely talking about perfect love (in context) and not (on this occasion) addressing the arrival of the Bible.

    When perfect love comes (in Heaven) all these other things will cease – not be necessary because we will know and be known and not need to grow anymore as we will put on perfection. So I don’t think we can use that verse to state that these things have finally ceased. You are right, however, that tongues is a sign for the Jews.

  • Eric B

    Thanks for the article. Caught some of the potato movie on t.v. tonight and had to look into the man behind it. Red flags were flying while I watched. I appreciate your diligence in researching.

  • Michael

    Thankfully by the grace of God I came out of this fraudent teaching…I saw the light between overpowering deception (demon controlled teaching…bordering on demented insanity and sheer demon possession. Dueling tongues is so far gone it is critical insanity and a huge mockery and insult to the message of salvation…a Holy Saviour suffering on the Cross…no wonder people are being sent to hell by the mockery of this false Christianity…it is blatant witchcraft.

    Having said this I do not know if Angus would go along with this…one at least hopes not but judging by the ridiculous formation of a “heart” in the sky that bears no resemblance to a real heart…not even a pagan valentines heart…come on…what desecration of being saved and regeneration.

    There are a lot of things that Angus says that are doctrinally dodgy and have nothing to do with the biblical message of the cross and do not apply to the ultimate sacrifice of dying to sin and being saved.

    But on top of that he records false facts that simply did not happen. Nobody knows that better than I do…simply out of the horses mouth.

    He like all charismatics, they are Never transparent and come to the party.
    They hate and fear exposure because this the power that Satan has…DISCEPTION…Christians do not be so NAIVE…the world is trying to WOO you.

    The people pleasers ( the indoctrinated masses will look to a man that stirs up their guilt) and will manipulate it to get majority acceptance. This is Satanic and many are being deceived. They get very angry at exposure and attack back…calling the true Christians as “nay-sayers” and being jealous, churlish spoilsports. That’s how they trap people. The world echo’s the same sentiments…when truth is exposed the automatic responses are conditioned to utter…negatism, legalism, racialism, colonialism, imperialism,etc, etc or some other “ism”…false chants…we also had heard communism and capitalism…behind all these ideologies are hidden agendas for control and power.

  • Johan

    can i just say that the holy spirit helps us to descern. you shall be known to be true or false by the fruits that you bare.

    do not judge lest you be judged.

    thank you Jesus for using ordinary people to make a difference in peoples lives

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Johan

    Thank you Johan, I am an ordinary person making a difference.

    >> do not judge lest you be judged.

    right back at you :)

  • Derek Botha

    What is most important is not personal views, but the truth, because the truth will set you free. We learned from the church that you need to a live a good life to buy your place in heaven, which is a lie! Secondly the church and government’s believes in the shadow of Jesus, and why? Mathew 7 is clear about the two ways, the broad one and the narrow one nd Jesus pronounced the amount of peole entering both. It is all about the law, the law that you and other people prefer to, because you believe to live a good live is the right way. My question is, who was the enemy of Jesus when He was on the earth, the sinner or the priest or the “” pharisees””. Why did Jesus died on the cross, simply because the cruisified Him under the law! He occationally reffered to law when He preached the gospel, therefore He said “” I am the law and the prophecie””. just believe in Me. The law is clearly written “”love”” in 1Cor 13,therefore do not judge, written in Mathew 7, why? He set us free ( bought us from captivity) from the law, written by human beings. The satan (law) can only prosecute you once you tresspass a law. The difference therefore be the Holy Spirit who guides you through right or wrong. Jesus chosed His people even before the creation (Mat 7 and Revelations, declared them His property ( Book of life) and said: If your name is not written in the book of life, you will be judged upon your own laws, Jesus is life, His victory made for us possible to live. Sin is the cause of death under the laws, Jesus is the life, just believe in Him and you cannot be a sinner!

    Derek Botha

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Derek

    I am not sure what you are trying to imply?

  • Robbie

    Derek

    you say: “Jesus is the life, just believe in Him and you cannot be a sinner!”

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Maar ek stem saam met Deborah… wil jy ‘n punt maak?

  • Michael

    Derek…We learned from the church that you need to a live a good life to buy your place in heaven, which is a lie!

    That’s the problem…true believers (saved Christians) do not believe this at all but what we do believe is that we hate sin…our own sin just as much as others sin…the paradox you have become involved with here and it causes confusion is that we are to hate sin…not to wishy washy around it……after all it caused the Saviour great suffering on the cross…surely it must revolt us and make us concerned not to encourage it light-heartedly or worse to treat it non-chalantly.

  • Michael

    What you’re saying Derek is that we CANNOT sin anymore…well that’s the biggest lie of all…in other words we can deliberately tell lies and live in adultery and because Jesus died for this we think it’s ok…that’s the problem with charismatics they think they are immune and can continue in unsavoury lifestyles…I know this because the last previous church my chaismatic pastor was a bar-fly and he and his elders used to p… it up at the local. When will you guys quit telling lies and face the truth and the true gospel???

  • Peter Drozd

    I just wanted to ask what’s wrong with being a Romand Catholic and considering myself to be a follower of Christ and believing His word to be true?
    Have you ever considered the fact that He speaks to people within a Catholic church? My nation (Slovakia) is being predominantly Catholic, is that meaning that we are not within the scope of true believers and not living in accordance with the Scripture?
    If that was the case what should we do (practically) to have a true faith?

  • John Andrews UK/Ireland

    Eric B wrote:

    Thanks for the article. Caught some of the potato movie on t.v. tonight and had to look into the man behind it. Red flags were flying while I watched. I appreciate your diligence in researching.

    This is where his lies got momentum. He says (preaches) that nobody can argue with a testimony – because they were not there? He actually manipulates his listeners to believe such a stupid statement. You can look at following Youtube video (Israel 2011 Feast of the Tabernacles) to get a totally disjointed message with mixed grill of well known Bible verses and “stories”. He actually tells you that he is telling you a story and then into it he throws in the Bible verses and before you know it the story “becomes truth and a miracle”. He is a pathologic liar because he is selling his merchandise to you. That in plain English is “merchandising the gospel” according to Angus Buchan (it is adulterated and false). Thank God that you saw red flags.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM6SOsekRR0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    If you watch this video be prepared to listen attentively and pause and rewind and examine this intelligently and logically. If the red flags do not jump at you – be worried, very worried!

  • John Andrews UK/Ireland

    Has my comment been lost or still in moderation? See below

    John Andrews UK/Ireland
    Your comment is awaiting moderation. Please be patient.
    22 July, 2014 at 4:28 pm

    A little more than a month ago Angus Buchan was heard in half a dozen places in seven days starting in Wales, then Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland,Scotland and England. Any true mature Christian with an ounce of discernment would have seen through his blatant lies. Things like heart shaped clouds, clouds standing still, the wind being the Holy Spirit are all natural phenomena that remind me of a game we played as kids. Identify objects in the clouds – and voila! you have a miracle or a sign(nogal). If you do not see the deception and cop onto the lies you are in trouble, or you were not listening (you were just enjoying the entertainment, or gig). Please see link that is a good and concise argument when dealing with false preachers/prophets. Click or copy and paste – it is worth more than vain arguments that abound when comments start flying in one’s face. Think ten times before insulting some other person’s comment. Give yours once you have thought it through properly. There is only one question: Is Angus Buchan a false teacher? Enough information is out there – just look at a full event on Youtube and and listen carefully and pause the video if you suspect something is dodgy. A good one is November 2013 in USA. If you find nothing to challenge ask a wise person to sit with you. After all you want to come to know the truth, or do you want to feel nice and comfortable?

    http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/FalseTeachersAndLyingProphets.htm

    Then the YouTube link (44 mins): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MQ1VuU0og

    God bless and pray that Matthew 16:16-17 becomes your new inspiration (plus the rest of God’s word) and not Angus or any teacher for that matter.
    – See more at: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/05/09/the-dominionist-faith-of-angus-buchan-faith-like-potatoes-2/#comment-293407

  • Anroinette van Vuuren

    Thank you for the confirmation with regards to Angus Buchan, that is the Truth in Him who has set us free Amen

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The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan - Faith Like Potatoes

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  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.

DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

  • YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT USE OF THE SITE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. NEITHER DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES, NOR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, OR LICENSORS WARRANT THAT THE SITE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE OR ERROR FREE.
  • THE SITE IS PROVIDED ON AN “AS IS” BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF TITLE OR IMLPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
  • THIS DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY APPLIES TO ANY DAMAGES OR INJURY CAUSED BY ANY FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE, ERROR, OMISSION, INTERRUPTION, DELETION, DEFECT, DELAY, COMMUNICATION LINE FAILURE, THEFT OR DESTRUCTION OR UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO, ALTERATION OF OR USE, WHETHER FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, TORTIOUS BEHAVIOR, NEGLIGENCE OR UNDER ANY OTHER CAUSE OF ACTION. YOU SPECIFICALLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DISCERNING THE WORLD SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR THE DEFAMATORY, OFFENSIVE OR ILLEGAL CONDUCT OF USERS OF THE SITE OR THIRD PARTIES, AND THAT THE RISK OF INJURY FROM THE FOREGOING RESTS ENTIRELY WITH THE YOU THE COMMENTER.
  • IN NO EVENT WILL DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES OR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS OR LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR ANY OTHER MATTER ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE SITE OR THESE TERMS.

16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!