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Jacob Prasch – But By The Grace of God [those Calvinists] . . . Tell The Truth!

Jacob Prasch 1

NEW: PLEASE READ THE ADDENDUM AT THE END OF THIS ARTICLE

Jacob Prasch – But By The Grace of God [those Calvinists] . . . Tell The Truth! (Read the article here.)

I only recently came across an article written by James Jacob Prasch which he called “What Are We Left With?.”  I must say I wholeheartedly agree with him on everything he said in the greater part of his article, at least until a I read the very last paragraph.

Jacob says;  “May God Bless Dave Hunt, Roger Oakland, Tony Peace, David Hocking, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Warren Smith, Ray Yungen, Chuck Smith, Jack Hibbs, Bill Randles, Philip Powell, Mike Gendron, David Wilkerson, Ray Comfort, Justin Peters, Paul Washer , John MacArthur, Stuart Dool, Doug Harris, John Higgins, Joseph Fara, Bob De Waay and the other servants of the One True God who labor to uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel in this age of apostasy and decline. None of these men are perfect or without flaw, nor above all either am I. But by the grace of God all of them tell the truth.   (Emphasis added).

[DTW note:  Ray Comfort, Justin Peters, Bob De Waay, Paul Washer and John MacArthur – 5 Calvinists that speak the truth according to Jacob Prasch]

It’s obvious that Dave Hunt is one of Prasch’s favourite writers and speakers, mentioning him first in a list of very illustrious and knowledgeable authors and preachers. I couldn’t agree more. Dave Hunt, in my opinion, is a gift of God to the church in these last days who like Paul of Tarsus “ceases not to warn every one night and day with tears” (Acts 20:31).  However, I was shocked to see the names of Paul Washer and John MacArthur in his list of men who “but by the grace of God  . . . tell the truth” and “uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel.”   Both these gentlemen, as Prasch himself knows, are staunch Calvinists whose doctrines of grace (as they call it) Dave Hunt rebukes and refutes as being a gross misrepresentation of God in his book “What Love Is This?” In the introduction “Why this Book?” Hunt writes:

 Most shocking of all, however, is Calvinism’s misrepresentation of God who “is love.”

If God is the essence of love, which of course He is, then the slightest misrepresentation of his love cannot possibly be called the truth. Both gentlemen, Paul Washer and John MacArthur, believe that Jesus did not die for everyone. Paul Washer is a wee bit more subtle in his approach to this particular “truth” and never says outrightly “Jesus did not die for everyone” but cunningly says in many of his videos on YouTube: “Jesus died the death OF HIS PEOPLE.” Who are his people? Well, of course, the elect only are God’s people. This is the kind of blasphemy John MacArthur and many other Calvinists spew out on their congregants and on the internet.

And James Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries says of these men (Paul Washer and John MacArthur): “but by the grace of God  [they]. . . tell the truth.” Is it true that Jesus Christ was crucified only for his people (a select few chosen ones)? If it is true, it must be from God. If not, then it is a lie and all lies emanate from the father of all lies, Satan himself. Calvinism is arguably one of the most dangerous doctrines on our planet. Everything they say about the doctrines of sanctification and living a life of holiness and absolute obedience to God is commendable but as soon as it comes to the very core of God’s will for all men, the salvation of their souls, they have it sorely wrong which borders dangerously on blasphemy.

Addendum:

In a Youtube video I watched today,[1] Jacob Prasch says that if you do not put on the belt of truth around your waste and continue to wear it day and night, you cannot claim to have the breastplate of righteousness covering your heart. As soon as you take off the belt of Truth, the breastplate of righteousness automatically falls to the ground. I happen to agree with him one hundred percent.

Having said that, we cannot in the very least assume that Calvinists, whom Jacob Prasch hails as men who “tell the Truth,” have put on the breastplate of righteousness. It is impossible to say they have been endowed with the breastplate of righteousness when they proclaim the following hideous and satanic lies:

  • “Why did God not choose to love everyone like that (savingly)? I’ll give you a good guess, and maybe not a guess. The reason God did not choose to love everyone savingly, is because the love of God is qualified and controlled by His glory.” (John MacArthur)
  • “God hates sinners.” (Paul Washer).  [Thomas: When God loves He only loves the elect according to  the Calvinistic John  3:16 but when He hates, He does not only hate the Calvinistic sinners but ALL sinners.  Calvinists just love too chop and change their interpretation of the meaning of “all,” “world” and “whosoever” whenever and however they like].

Jacob, are these guys telling the Truth? If they are, then you have every right to proclaim that they are endowed with both the belt of Truth and the breastplate of righteousness. If not, then you cannot possibly say that they are wearing the breastplate of righteousness. Wouldn’t you agree that they (John MacArthur and Paul Washer) are going to end up in Babylon as well? Don’t you think you should apologize in public to God and the Body of Christ that you were wrong in saying” . . . by the grace of God all of them tell the truth? If you do, I will be the first person to say in public that you are truly a man of God who wears both the belt of truth and the breastplate of righteousness to the honor and glory of God.


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80 comments to Jacob Prasch – But By The Grace of God [those Calvinists] . . . Tell The Truth!

  • Marion

    One ought also to be shocked at the listing of Jesuits, CNPers and the members of the “network” “wolf pack” mentioned in the “Jacob says ‘God bless…” paragraph referenced above. ALWAYS take note of a group and those who are included. Many of them have not been “exposed” as false teachers or “wolves in sheep’s clothing”…however…take note…of the “companions and respected ones” referenced by a “wolf” himself! Where you find one “wolf” you will find others…ALL OF THEM. Remember…”wolves” travel in “packs.” Mark them and flee. (Or..you can use their credible information…since – they MUST have credible truth, in order to be perceived as a credible teacher – in which to mix in their leaven. BUT…get your doctrine and feed your faith in the Bible)

    AND as much as I have loved Dave Hunt myself, and gleaned much useful INFORMATION…take heed…
    (use of any link is not any endorsement of any person, group, “ministry” or philosophy – information only)

    http://www.seekgod.ca/cosmic.htm

    http://www.seekgod.ca/hunt.htm

    (there’s more…use the search engine)

  • Martin Horan

    There is a big difference between Dave Hunt’s teachings and those of any Calvinist.
    When I first came over Calvinist teachings I found them shocking and depressing. I found it hard to believe God, Who identifies Himself as the God of Love and does not will that anyone should perish, has created and destined most people to an eternity of hell and a minority to live forever with Him in heaven. And, to make matters worse, the great majority that He has destined to an eternity in hell are neither better nor worse than those who are in heaven.
    Could there ever be a worse calumny against God? If this is not blasphemy then what is?
    And yet, when those who make those blasphemous statements against God are challenged by others from Scriptures, they blatantly twist the Scriptures (to their own destruction [2 Pet 3:16]) to back their maligning of God’s Holy and loving character.
    I have read much of Dave Hunt’s writings on Calvin and Calvinism. His book What Love Is This? is the definitive work on Calvinism. In it he has literally left no stone unturned. And even then the Calvinists attack him with ad hominem, straw men and circular argumentation. But they have no option because Dave Hunt beats them hands down with logic as he does with Scripture.
    In no way are Dave Hunt’s beliefs remotely similar to Calvinism.
    There again, I cannot see how any Calvinist can tell the truth and uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel. So I cannot see how Jacob Prasch can hold Dave Hunt and Calvinists in the same esteem when their teachings are in conclict. Perhaps Mr Prasch does not see where their beliefs so blatantly contradict each other.

  • Holly G.

    I’m not surprised at all. Unfortunately, on Hunt’s site, someone is recommending some of the Calvinist’s too. Don’t know if they have been infiltrated, or what is going on, but they seem to think it’s o.k. to refer to “some” of their writings… Compromise to me. Btw, how do I email you? I tried and it came back. Would someone shoot me an email please? thank you.

  • Paul (Continue In His Word)

    @Marion,
    I read the links you posted about Hunt.
    What else can we say? Who then is sound today?
    People are not always what they appear to be…
    I started questioning myself about Hunt since I wrote TBC inquiring about their support of, endorsement of and selling of A. W. Tozer books, more importantly without any warning. Tozer, himself a mystic, is a bridge to the who is who of Roman Catholic Mystics. He endorses and promotes lectio divina.
    TBC brushed my concerns aside.Then I thought well Dave Hunt must be too old today, and he does not necessarily know or approve what his staff is doing.

    Also, I started reading his book “Judgement Day” and all along kept asking myself: Is this author a Dominionist? The book seemed very odd to me from the perspective of someone who is “not of the world”, “stranger and pilgrim on earth”. Finally I just tossed it aside as it was a distraction to me. It seemed to me something could be wrong with the author of this book. It did not fit in the scheme of the faith once delivered to the saints.

  • John E

    Paul…there are wolves on all sides of every issue. So, although Dave Hunt is no Calvinist…there are serious doctrinal issues with Dave Hunt as well, especially related to Jacob Boehme and William Law. Who else goes there?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme

  • Redeemed

    Re: Dave Hunt

    I have followed The Berean Call for many years and have found Dave to be a valiant defender of the truth. But I have noted slippage after he has left the scene due to advanced age. I no longer consider it a solid discernment source because of the mixture of truth and error. I am disappointed in T.A. McMahon as I thought he would carry on and fill Dave’s footsteps.

    There is still much useful material to be found there, but one needs to use discernment and caution. As much as it pains me, I can no longer recommend TBC. Dave was always under unjustifiable fire for his stand against Calvinism and also his dispensational theology. I think Dave would be most saddened to see the compromise creeping in today.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John E

    >> Paul…there are wolves on all sides of every issue. So, although Dave Hunt is no Calvinist…there are serious doctrinal issues with Dave Hunt as well, especially related to Jacob Boehme and William Law. Who else goes there? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme

    Do you have proof of this? Linking to Jacob Boehme does not give evidence of Dave Hunt agreeing with the man. Gimme proof.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John E

    >> Paul…there are wolves on all sides of every issue. So, although Dave Hunt is no Calvinist…there are serious doctrinal issues with Dave Hunt as well, especially related to Jacob Boehme and William Law. Who else goes there? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme

    Do you have proof of this? Linking to Jacob Boehme on wikipedia does not give evidence of Dave Hunt agreeing with the man. Gimme proof.

  • John E

    If you read the links in comment 1 as I did, and examine for yourself, you will find it, along with other problems related to Dave in doctrine and ecumenism (even though he spoke and wrote against it – double-mindedness = an “unstable man” Book of James). These include a non-cessationist view of Scripture along with other beliefs of his Plymouth Brethren orthodoxy (pentacostal, with tongues, etc.). He does not believe in a literal hell. Dave Hunt edited William Law’s (disciple of Boehme) book, “The Power of the Spirit.” You can go to this site for a look inside the book and read the introduction here http://www.amazon.com/Power-Spirit-William-Law/dp/0875088228#reader_B008B93QEE

  • Paul (Continue In His Word)

    Quotation from http://www.seekgod.ca/cosmic.htm:
    >>It is very odd that we find occult and New Age expert, Dave Hunt of The Berean Call, promoting William Law’s book [an occultic and New Ager and disciple of Bohme], Power in the Spirit. Amidst controversy over writing the Introduction for it, Mr. Hunt took the stand that there were good things in the book. That would be so, when one includes the Word of God in anything. The Word of God is not bound by the intentions for it’s use.

    Hunt not only wrote the introduction of the book, but he re-edited it to spread the blight.
    This is UNBELIEVABLE!

    If Hunt is not a wolf, I don’t who is.

  • Michael

    Martin you have summed it up pretty well. When we have been duped by false and lying doctrines and come out of it…it is because of His grace. The underlying problem is the human tenancy (sin induced) to put our fellow man on a pedestal which is idolatory. We must realise that all are contaminated except one being the chosen one…the Christ.

    When we at last see this then the scales start falling off our eyes.

    People rant and rave about manifest sin and in some context so they should but where Satan snookers most christians is in the sins of pride and self…hidden sins of disposition and the heart. Only the 2 edged sword can operate on this.

  • Redeemed

    John E. can we assume that you do not subscribe to depensational theology since you took a swipe at Plymouth brethren?
    You are absolutely 100% WRONG – Dave Hunt does believe in a literal hell.

    Amazing how you have tried to morph this thread into an inquisition of Dave Hunt. I have followed Dave for probably 20 + years, read his books including those exposing Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, perused his articles, heard him speak in person and have spoke with him in person. He was not perfect and he would be the first to admit it. He is a very humble servant of the Lord who has basically finished his course and His works continue to edify and bless.

  • Cal Teichmann

    Re: Dave Hunt, I was blessed by Mr. Hunts books, some which I do have till this day. I have admired him for years and subscribed to the Berean Call newsletter. But I’m dead set against his Arminian belief method, it’s not correct doctrine of Grace. One is called to be a believer. One does NOT have Free Will. Another point that disturbed me for years was his continual fellow-shipping with the Apostate Chuck Smith, and Calvary Chapel. Chuck Smith has never been truly born again, he has supported and fed to the church major deceivers of truth, such as Ronnie Frisbie, John Wimber, they are ecumenical and support Rick Warren. Also Mr. Hunt back in 1998 has also supported Gematria, other wise known as “the Bible Code” which is rooted in Kabbala, which is of the occult. I now mark Mr. David Hunt as a false spiritual leader. ALL of the men listed by Prasch are liars, false teachers, and apostate, none are to be followed or supported.

  • Michael

    Cal please clarify yourself here, are YOU stating this or is this the false doctrine?
    Quote: “…it’s not correct doctrine of Grace. One is called to be a believer. One does NOT have Free Will. Another point that disturbed me for years”

    Of course we have been GIVEN free will, the ability TO CHOSE.

    We have NOT BEEN CREATED HUMAN AUTOMATONS !

  • Leigh

    When the persecuters come, and the Christians are all hauled up and in the FEMA vans getting hauled away, and someone asks another in the van “hey are you a Christian” and the other says “yeah”, I realllllly doubt the focus is gonna be on whether they are a calvinst or arminian or a midrash person or cessationist or WHATEVER! I GET speaking out against false teachers, BUT TRUE false teachers that are leading people away, like Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson etc. should be the MAIN focus! What YOU are doing is being down right critical in the most negative form possible! I DID see on here you affiliating Prasch with Katrine Kuhlman and Lonnie Frisbee, you ARE a slanderer, but of course, like the coward that you, you will delete this comment. Sadly, if you are gonna be bold enough to post stuff on the net, you should be bold enough to take the heat, a person with some sort of bravery faces up to their words, especially someone as confident as you in claiming Prasch is such a false teacher, then face up to it when someone challenges you. You have a very slanderous spirit, you do, you and your fellow supporters and fellow bashers as well. God help you people!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    >> When the persecuters come, and the Christians are all hauled up and in the FEMA vans getting hauled away, and someone asks another in the van “hey are you a Christian” and the other says “yeah”, I realllllly doubt the focus is gonna be on whether they are a calvinst or arminian or a midrash person or cessationist or WHATEVER!

    You label the Calvinist Christian, the Bible does not label them Christians. At that point in time in the FEMA van, a person who is following false doctrine is just as accountable to God as they were before they were in the van.

    >> What YOU are doing is being down right critical in the most negative form possible! I DID see on here you affiliating Prasch with Katrine Kuhlman and Lonnie Frisbee, you ARE a slanderer, but of course, like the coward that you, you will delete this comment.

    No one here affiliated Prasch to Kathyrn Kulman or Lonnie Frisbee WE ONLY ASSOCIATE HIM TO CHUCK SMITH who is associated to Lonnie Frisee and Kathryn Kuhlman. You make up lies and then call it slander! Oh please.
    No I won’t delete this comment, because I want people to what lovely followers Jacob Prasch has. Full of love – not.

    >> Sadly, if you are gonna be bold enough to post stuff on the net, you should be bold enough to take the heat

    Really? Are you my judge, jury and executioner?

    >> Prasch is such a false teacher, then face up to it when someone challenges you.

    I will face any anyone who will NOT LIE and speak about doctrine instead of name call and attack me personally.

    >> you have a very slanderous spirit, you do, you and your fellow supporters and fellow bashers as well. God help you people!

    No. But your god is Jacob Prasch.

  • Leigh

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):
    My God is NOT Prasch, you are OUT OF LINE to say so, because I am calling out error that constitutes me as worshipping Prasch!!?? You INDEED are crazy! I do not agree with Calvinist doctrine myself, but I, NOR YOU, have the right to say that they are going to Hell, you really are TRULY judgmental is the worst possible way! God Help you!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    >> My God is NOT Prasch, you are OUT OF LINE to say so, because I am calling out error that constitutes me as worshipping Prasch!!?? You INDEED are crazy! I do not agree with Calvinist doctrine myself, but I, NOR YOU, have the right to say that they are going to Hell, you really are TRULY judgmental is the worst possible way! God Help you!

    You are not calling out error, you are making silly statements that Jacob Prasch would make. You do agree with Calvinism, you just said so, I repeat what you said it an earlier comment..”When the persecuters come, and the Christians are all hauled up and in the FEMA vans getting hauled away, and someone asks another in the van “hey are you a Christian” and the other says “yeah”, “I realllllly doubt the focus is gonna be on whether they are a calvinst” or arminian or a midrash person or cessationist or WHATEVER!”

    Here you have just stated that “Calvinists are Christians”.
    And then you said in this comment, “NOR YOU, have the right to say that they are going to Hell”.

    But you say you DON’T agree with Calvinism…errr… which is it Leigh? Confused? Make up your mind Leigh, pick a side of the fence and stay there. It is clear you don’t understand the doctrine of Calvinism hence you are making such wild to and fro claims.

  • Redeemed

    Leigh, how would you like it if you suffered from a debilitating and painful disease and someone said your were demon-possessed? Jacob Prasch called Deborah and others here the most horrible, dispicable names. No one did that to Mr. Prasch, just questioned his teachings. No one got personal about it. No one slandered him.

    You are not even being rational. You are all over the place. Apparently you follow Mr. Prasch’s faulty eschatology since you are concerned about FEMA camps and such. What you should be concerned about is the TRUTH. Calvinism is a lie and you, like Mr. Prasch give it a pass.

    If you would calm down and actually read the articles, (there is an excellent one on Midrash by Martin Horan) and keep an open mind and ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you, you might learn something. This website is not your enemy, I wish you would realize that. It is not Jacob Prasch’s enemy either. Strange that when one questions a prominent teacher all of a sudden one becomes an enemy and the object of hatred.

  • David

    God hates sin and those who keep sinning. The wrath of God is upon those who leave in sin. People leaving in sin are those not appreciating God’s love and therefore they chose to be hated by God. Christ died and raised for everyone, but He is not saving those chose not to be saved, those that are happily continue leaving in sin. God loves Essau and hate Jacob for certain reason that He the only one sees what in them. It is clear that God knows a person that we cannot comprehend because our sight are limited. Yes, Jesus died for sinners, to convert and change them into His likeness. He did die for all sinners but not to the extend that they can continue sinning. Those that are chosen to be saved are people that defend their given salvation by leaving all the past sin and transgression, fighting against their sinful nature. They know that they’ve been called to live holy according to Christ’s teaching, and they believe that if they follow His commandment they will have victory over sin. Then, by this, the chosen means those who accept Christ teaching and become a true follower by practicing His commandment. If we love Him, we should do what He asked us to do. God is loving but hate sin and those who purposely keep sinning.

  • Sharon

    I know of no other topic that has divided Southern Baptist Churches in America than this false teaching called Calvinism or Sovereign Grace. I had a good friend try to get me flustered when he asked me when was I going to believe in the Sovereignty of God. He was truly just joking. My best friend was seated to the right of me as we were eating breakfast in a restaurant. She said, oh no, don’t get her started! I looked up and told my first friend (a Baptist Preacher and his wife) that I believe that God is Sovereign and that God was not intimidated one bit that I have “free will” because that’s something everyone has been given by God. I was not offended at all because we were all sort of joking around and he meant it just to tease me.

    It seems that the Calvinists do not understand the meaning of the words ALL, WORLD AND WHOSOEVER. The God I love and worship, whose name is I AM is love. He is not willing for anyone to end up in hell. My friend says that if there are people in hell that Jesus loves then his death on the cross was powerless. No, No, No…rather those who refuse Jesus Christ will be without excuse when they stand before God in judgment. My God (I AM) doesn’t choose some to go to hell simply for being born.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sharon

    Yay, you are back, I am very happy :)

  • Robbie

    gmf.. when I am back I get a hey. When Sharon comes back she gets a Yay!?
    Wb Sharon

    David… you mean God Hated Esau and loved Jacob.:-)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    YAY ROBBIE! But if I remember correctly I think you got a hug sometime recently ;P

    I am happy Sharon is back, she is a wise lady, just like yourself, except you are not a lady.

  • Sharon

    Thank you very much.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Sharon

    Yay, you are back, I am very happy :)

  • Sharon

    Hey Deborah…wonder how your critics will feel when their Mansion in heaven is right next door to you! :o) Why oh why must your critics act so ungodly? If they’re Calvinists I understand their Phariseeism. After all, they’re the Elect so they must be justified in attacking us when we call out the false teachings called Calvinism & Arminianism. What happened to the days when people confessed Jesus and believed what the Bible said? I will never, ever accept the beliefs of man other than the God-Man Christ Jesus. One thing about most Calvinists is when they find out we aren’t one then they automatically label us as Arminians. Nope, not me. Here’s what Job had to say about titles or labels…he was very wise.
    Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
    Job 32:22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

    Stand firm Deborah. These critics are like mosquitos. One day we may all be called on to either stand for Jesus or die. The pesky mosquitos are an annoyance that makes us stronger for the trials ahead.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Leigh

    >> When the persecuters come, and the Christians are all hauled up and in the FEMA vans getting hauled away, and someone asks another in the van “hey are you a Christian” and the other says “yeah”, I realllllly doubt the focus is gonna be on whether they are a calvinst or arminian or a midrash person or cessationist or WHATEVER!

    You label the Calvinist Christian, the Bible does not label them Christians. At that point in time in the FEMA van, a person who is following false doctrine is just as accountable to God as they were before they were in the van.

    >> What YOU are doing is being down right critical in the most negative form possible! I DID see on here you affiliating Prasch with Katrine Kuhlman and Lonnie Frisbee, you ARE a slanderer, but of course, like the coward that you, you will delete this comment.

    No one here affiliated Prasch to Kathyrn Kulman or Lonnie Frisbee WE ONLY ASSOCIATE HIM TO CHUCK SMITH who is associated to Lonnie Frisee and Kathryn Kuhlman. You make up lies and then call it slander! Oh please.
    No I won’t delete this comment, because I want people to what lovely followers Jacob Prasch has. Full of love – not.

    >> Sadly, if you are gonna be bold enough to post stuff on the net, you should be bold enough to take the heat

    Really? Are you my judge, jury and executioner?

    >> Prasch is such a false teacher, then face up to it when someone challenges you.

    I will face any anyone who will NOT LIE and speak about doctrine instead of name call and attack me personally.

    >> you have a very slanderous spirit, you do, you and your fellow supporters and fellow bashers as well. God help you people!

    No. But your god is Jacob Prasch.

  • Sharon

    LOL…you made me laugh about him not being a lady.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    YAY ROBBIE! But if I remember correctly I think you got a hug sometime recently ;P

    I am happy Sharon is back, she is a wise lady, just like yourself, except you are not a lady.

  • Sharon

    From your writing here I guess you believe you are perfect. There are two types of people on this planet called Earth. Lost sinners and Saved Sinners. What a lot of Christians either don’t know because they haven’t been taught correctly is that when we received Jesus Christ as Savior ALL of our sins are forgiven. ALL means all of our past sins, present sins and future sins. So the wrath of God doesn’t fall on us because when He sees, He sees His son. Now with that said…does our liberty in Christ give us license to live in sin? No. Paul made that clear here Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    Gal_5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. re: David, I hate when I sin. The Holy Spirit lets me know when I have done wrong. Even though my sin was forgiven when I received Jesus by faith our confession of sin keeps the fellowship with Him uncluttered. When I am chastised for something I did, I do not complain because He did it because He loves me. Praise God for the Liberty we have in Jesus Christ.

    David wrote:

    God hates sin and those who keep sinning. The wrath of God is upon those who leave in sin. People leaving in sin are those not appreciating God’s love and therefore they chose to be hated by God. Christ died and raised for everyone, but He is not saving those chose not to be saved, those that are happily continue leaving in sin. God loves Essau and hate Jacob for certain reason that He the only one sees what in them. It is clear that God knows a person that we cannot comprehend because our sight are limited. Yes, Jesus died for sinners, to convert and change them into His likeness. He did die for all sinners but not to the extend that they can continue sinning. Those that are chosen to be saved are people that defend their given salvation by leaving all the past sin and transgression, fighting against their sinful nature. They know that they’ve been called to live holy according to Christ’s teaching, and they believe that if they follow His commandment they will have victory over sin. Then, by this, the chosen means those who accept Christ teaching and become a true follower by practicing His commandment. If we love Him, we should do what He asked us to do. God is loving but hate sin and those who purposely keep sinning.

  • Sharon

    I may have posted this before. So if I did…please forgive. Here are the Statements of Salvation for Augustine & John Calvin.

    Professions of Faith by Famous/Infamous People

    Augustine’s Conversion

    Augustine’s conversion, like many other important historical events, did not happen all at once or as the result of a single event. Rather, Augustine’s conversion to Christianity was the result of several major life events. Specifically, there were five stages to his conversion, along with another pushing ongoing factor. The five major stages were 1) the reading of Hortensius by Cicero; 2) his rejection of Manichaeanism; 3) his meeting with St. Ambrose; 4) his reading of Neoplatonist works; and 5) Augustine’s vision. All of these stages were also accented by the ongoing factor of Augustine’s mother’s influence as a pious Christian. It is important to note that Augustine’s conversion to Christianity was not the just the result of events in his later life. His Christian influences began upon his birth to his Catholic mother. “And I was signed with the sign of His Cross and seasoned with his salt as I came new from the womb of my mother, who had great trust in You.” (pg.11) Though his father was a pagan, he did little to nothing to influence his son away from the teachings of Christianity.

    The Visions of Augustine & His Mother, Monica

    In the first vision, this idea is an “instant of awe” where Augustine recognizes God. (Page 151) This instant has not been longed for or desired. However, in the second vision, the chain of thought leads to a “touching” of the eternal Wisdom, which is the purpose of the ascent. The success of Augustine and Monica in the second vision lies in the power of their hearts, or their faith (Page 197), where the fault of Augustine in the first vision lies in the weakness of his will and soul. (Page 151) It is also interesting to note that in the first vision he sees the general God, where in the second vision Monica and Augustine see the specific qualities of God. From this, the reader may conclude that enhanced faith leads to a more complete knowledge of God.

    This is supported by the idea that divine knowledge is more reliable than human knowledge. The period of Augustine’s life in which these visions took place is significant in his development of faith. The first vision is in the beginning of Augustine’s conversion to Christianity. (Book 7, Pages 133-156) Because of his lack of faith (and therefore a lack of knowledge acquired by faith), he cannot be close to God and must rely on sight (or reason) to know Him. (Page 151).

    This is the opposite of the second vision, where Augustine and Monica have completed their conversion and are able to touch (or experience) God. (Page 151) This reiterates the idea that enhanced faith leads to a more complete knowledge of God. As Monica and Augustine are not eternal, as the vision is, their vision can only last for a short period. Augustine “recoils” from his first vision due to a weakness in his faith, his will, and his intellect. (Page 152) Nothing of the vision remains but its memory, which makes him long for the love and acceptance of God, and helps his faith grow. (Page 152) The significant change in the strength of Augustine’s will and intellect are seen in his fall from the second vision.

    (Please note that things written here in parenthesis are comments from me.
    Is it just me that cannot see the name of Jesus Christ in this small sample of his writings? There are no words of repentance along with no words of receiving Jesus Christ as his Savior. There seems to be no brokenness over sin, only his “recognition of God in his mind.” There is another person in this list that we later will see basically says the same thing some 500 years later and considered himself to be just like Augustine. If Augustine wrote it then this man believed it based only on Augustine’s writings).

    The Two Different Statements of the Conversion of John Calvin

    During the autumn of 1533 Calvin experienced a religious conversion. In his later life, John Calvin wrote two different accounts of his conversion that differ in significant ways. In the first account he portrays his conversion as a sudden change of mind, brought about by God. This account can be found in his Commentary on the Book of Psalms:

    1.God by a sudden conversion subdued and brought my mind to a teachable frame, which was more hardened in such matters than might have been expected from one at my early period of life. Having thus received some taste and knowledge of true godliness, I was immediately inflamed with so intense a desire to make progress therein, that although I did not altogether leave off other studies, yet I pursued them with less ardor.

    As with Augustine there is no mention of Jesus Christ. No mention of repentance or sorrow over sin.

    2. In his second account he speaks of a long process of inner turmoil, followed by spiritual and psychological anguish. Being exceedingly alarmed at the misery into which I had fallen, and much more at that which threatened me in view of eternal death, I, duty bound, made it my first business to betake myself to your way, condemning my past life, not without groans and tears. And now, O Lord, what remains to a wretch like me, but instead of defense, earnestly to supplicate you not to judge that fearful abandonment of your Word according to its deserts, from which in your wondrous goodness you have at last delivered me.

    Here also there is no mention of Jesus Christ. No repentance of sin just his groaning over it.

    Scholars have argued about the precise interpretation of these accounts, but it is agreed that his conversion corresponded with his break from the Roman Catholic Church. The Calvin biographer, Bruce Gordon, has stressed that “the two accounts are not antithetical, revealing some inconsistency in Calvin’s memory, but rather are two different ways of expressing the same reality.

    I would never be so bold to say that they definitely are not saved. But I do see some very wicked “fruit.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sharon

    >> Hey Deborah…wonder how your critics will feel when their Mansion in heaven is right next door to you! :o) Why oh why must your critics act so ungodly? If they’re Calvinists I understand their Phariseeism. After all, they’re the Elect so they must be justified in attacking us when we call out the false teachings called Calvinism & Arminianism. What happened to the days when people confessed Jesus and believed what the Bible said? I will never, ever accept the beliefs of man other than the God-Man Christ Jesus. One thing about most Calvinists is when they find out we aren’t one then they automatically label us as Arminians. Nope, not me. Here’s what Job had to say about titles or labels…he was very wise.

    Well the critics needs to change their unbiblical views and think themselves saved instead of Elect and repent of this to Jesus Christ this before they get a mansion.

  • Sharon

    Today is May 24, 2013 and I hate Calvinism more than I ever have. I asked my best friend, (Calvinist since 2004) a question about the Rapture of the Church and what her thoughts were. I asked if she believed in Pre-Trib or Post Trib. I don’t know was her reply. I was shocked. So I emailed her some scriptures that prove a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church. She said that she had heard many godly men teach both sides of the issue. Frankly I don’t care what any man says about the issue; it’s what scripture says. Then someone here posted that Calvinists are taught to hate the non-elect. I just couldn’t believe that my best friend of 53 years hated anyone. So I asked her that question. I never got an answer. I took it too far with my “passive aggressive” attitude. I asked why would God condemn someone to hell just for being born? That was a conversation ender. I am intensely sad that I took it too far, but I am even more saddened that we both have agreed to never discuss Calvinism ever again. There is so very much more in Scripture that we could discuss together but now, after this, it had put a Sword between us. I am no Calvinist and I am not an Arminian. I just love Jesus Christ my Savior.

    This is what Calvinism does…it divides rather than unify.

  • HI Sharon,

    Indeed, it is sad when your best friends or even you own family members become your enemies when you present them with the truth. Nonetheless, we have to choose whom we ought to obey – Jesus or our friends/family.

    Paul said:

    For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. (Gal 1:10)

    Many Christians seem to have lost their witness because they decided to rather please friends/family for the sake of peace, love and good relationships. To do this is nothing else than being ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Our attitude should be: “If people want to hate me for telling them the truth in love, so be it.”

  • Robbie

    Yip Tom, you and I had a brief discussion on this.
    You are part of prophecy Sharon. That is the good News…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sharon

    It’s a terrible doctrine and when you REALLY find out what it’s all about its a shock to the system. Calvinist will ‘keep you as friends’ as long as you don’t tread on their toes (aka doctrine) The moment you start asking questions you become THE INFIDEL!

    I will give you a big hug *HUGS*

    Thomas and I we’ve been attacked by specific pair of Calvinists no stop since the day I stood up for Jesus Christ against this doctrine of demons.

  • Redeemed

    Sharon, I don’t know how you define friendship, but with friends like that, one doesn’t need enemies!

    Friends don’t always agree on everything, but Calvinism is such a devious doctrine that it strikes at the very core of the Gospel. If your friend was saved before and then became deluded by that doctrine, and she does in fact have the Holy Spirit, you should be able to reason with her and speak the truth in love. On the other hand, if she is so far gone and firmly entrenched in Calvinism is it possible that she never really ever knew the Lord with saving knowledge?

    If she is your best friend, you owe it to her to approach her in love and have this discussion. I find it most helpful to start with TULIP. This boils down the beliefs. Arm yourself with the Word and the knowledge of those beliefs and why they are unbiblical. Let your friend know that it is out of a heart of concern and not to simply argue.

    I don’t see how a friendship can be maintained on a close level under the circumstances when the gulf is so wide. Pray for your friend and for opportunities to share the truth with her. If she won’t listen to the truth, then it may be time to come out and separate from her and then release her for God to deal with her. Light has no fellowship with darkness and Calvinism/Reformed doctrine is about as dark as it gets.

    Just sayin…………….

  • Anonymous

    I love true discernment ministries. But I do not agree with the way you guys treat brothers in Christ. Jacob Prasch is a Godly man. He does not divide over non essentials. If you truly loved the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit which indwells in every true Christian loves the true body of Christ. Look you don’t have to agree on everything another believer says about the non essentials. But if you have the same Gospel, Jesus Christ Died for our sins, rose again and ascended to heaven to be seated at the right hand side of The true Father God (Yahweh). If you believe that the original scripture written in their orginal languages by the Holy Spirit through man and that it is inerrant, this is an essential. Then you must believe Jesus Christ is The Eternal Son of God who is God and He came in the flesh, thus being 100% God and 100% man being in the flesh to pay the penalty for our sin and to lead us to the LORD YAHWEH. And you must believe in the God head The TRIUNE YAHWEH GOD. Being THE GODHEAD, consisting of The FATHER, THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT (THE TRUE TRIUNE GOD) – you must believe that also, And finally we are sinners and need forgiveness of our sins!! and therefore as the bible commands us, Jesus CHRIST THE LORD GOD OF ALL COMMANDS US to repent and put our faith (trust) in JESUS CHRIST YAHWEH FOR THE REMISSIONS OF SINS!!! THROUGH HIM ONLY CAN WE BE SAVED. JESUS CHRIST IS every Christians LORD AND SAVIOUR. Now… on this basis do true christians have fellowship. And you must be careful on how you build. Jesus Christ gave the convernant to ISRAEL. BOTH. THE Law of Moses and the Law of Liberty. So Israel is important and God has a prophetic plan for Israel still! We are apart of it! …. Jacob Prasch is a solid man of God. I have listened to hours of his teaching and support his ministry because it lines up with the word of God. Ray Comfort although i disagree with calvinism is a Godly man and same with John Macarthur and David Hocking, Mick Gendron ect ect. These people are Godly and I support them also. I don’t agree with calvinism but boy do they get most things right. So please stop your ungodly accusations toward Godly men. You either Love the brethren and support them, as long as they are not heretical or it proves you are not saved and do not have the Holy Spirit of God and your conversion is false. Please think about it for your own sake. Ps this is not Jacob Prasch or any of the people mentioned. God bless.

  • Anonymous

    forgot to mention those people I mentioned above don’t believe that people are made to go to hell. Please see what they say and go to them first. Thankyou also.

  • Anonymous

    The people sorry to add they believe once saved always saved. Which although I don’t agree with it, they do end with the same result. Eg. Macarthurs view and David Hocking ect… if they don’t continue in God they were never saved in the first place and what i believe is you can lose your salvation if you don’t continue in the essential doctrines to be saved as mentioned above. And same with Mike Gendron… non of these people are 5 point calvinists. So again rethink your position and do the right thing. Kind regards.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Anonymous

    >> I love true discernment ministries. But I do not agree with the way you guys treat brothers in Christ. Jacob Prasch is a Godly man

    Really? So what goes through your mind when Jacob Prasch does this to others? Jacob Prasch the Railer

    >> He does not divide over non essentials

    This is important stuff, leading people into the clutches of the CULT OF CALVINISM. They believe that Jesus only died on the Cross for the Elect and not the whole world, there are many other heresies they preach.

    >> Ray Comfort although i disagree with calvinism is a Godly man and same with John Macarthur and David Hocking,

    How is this possible, when they believe the are ELECT instead of saved? That’s like saying, I agree with the teachings of 7th days adventists because they too preach a gospel that is soooo similar to Christianity but when you take the time to look at it, it is NOT the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is FALSE, a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Anyonymous

    Calvinists believe that God picked some before time memorial to be Elect and others to go to hell, are you one of those He picked to go to hell? Just think about that.

  • Sharon

    Who ever you are Anonymous, please open your Bible. Find me one example of someone in the New Testament that was truly saved, truly born again that committed some particular sin and was then lost again. Please fine me just one that this happened to.
    The Apostle Peter denied Jesus three times. Did he lose his salvation? No
    The Apostle Paul said of himself that he didn’t do the things he knew he should and he did the things that he knew he shouldn’t do. Did Paul lose his salvation? No.
    James and John were called the “Sons of Thunder.” They wanted to call fire down from heaven and destroy a whole town full of people. Did they lose their salvation? No.

    There is absolutely, positively, no one in scripture that ever lost their Salvation. When you say that people can lose it then you are saying that God is too weak to keep us saved. We need to be very care full about what we imply about our All Powerful God. Nothing can take us out of his hand…not even ourselves.

    Anonymous wrote:

    The people sorry to add they believe once saved always saved. Which although I don’t agree with it, they do end with the same result. Eg. Macarthurs view and David Hocking ect… if they don’t continue in God they were never saved in the first place and what i believe is you can lose your salvation if you don’t continue in the essential doctrines to be saved as mentioned above. And same with Mike Gendron… non of these people are 5 point calvinists. So again rethink your position and do the right thing. Kind regards.

  • Sharon

    I’m just laying here in my little bed reading older post here. I was reading things about Calvinism, my best friend and that truth can be a divider. I have stood against friends before for the sake of the truth. It hurts but when it comes to the truth of Jesus Christ there are no friends or even family sometimes. Thanks be to God I have never had to stand against family. All of my family, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, my kids and grandchildren all knew or know Jesus Christ as their Savior! I am so blessed to have a circle of family that is unbroken and we will spend eternity together in heaven.

    God has also blessed me with some great friends. Most of my friends live back in Florida. I can’t say that I really have a close friend here in Louisiana. There are some great ladies at my church that I love and appreciate but they are still working whereas I am on disability retirement. So it’s hard to get close to a friend here.

    My best friend, life long friend has meant the world to me. We grew up in the same church. Her parents were my second parents and my parents were her second parents. We have been friends since we were five years old. Both of us will soon be 59. So that makes a friendship of 53 years. We even took a short road trip to see some friends when we celebrated being friends for 50 years. The little church we grew up in was definitely NOT Calvinistic. One Pastor tried to lead the church that way and he was asked to resign and he did so. But we were probably only about 7 years old at that time. I remember some of it but not a lot. Then the church called my grandfather to be pastor. He left his church in Ohio and moved to Michigan.

    My grandfather had an 8th grade education. He could out preach most any pastor, preacher, teacher, evangelist I have never known. He loved people. He would cry in the pulpit over the fact people were dying and going to hell. There are many people in heaven today that are there because my grandfather and grandmother led them to Jesus Christ.
    Eventually my grandfather retired and we called a new pastor. He was doctrinally straight as an arrow…and not Calvinistic at all. He found out he had cancer and within a year the Lord called him home. The next pastor we had also was not a Calvinist.
    I said all that just to show that we did not grow up in a church that taught false doctrine. My dad and my best friends dad, one of my uncles and a couple other men were the deacons and none were Calvinistic. My dad and his brother were strict on doctrine and both were great teachers, as was my friends dad. Her dad said of mine, I never had a brother but if I could have one I would want him to be you. (my dad)

    So our families were close friends. There is an old saying here in the USA and it goes, You can pick your friends but you’re stuck with your family. :o) My best friend was kind of a wild child when we were teenagers. She hung around people that I wouldn’t hang around with. She dabbled a bit with drugs, mostly marijuana and was boy crazy. She would get aggravated when I would come over her house when she would rather go hang out with the guys. She struggled a lot back then with her salvation. One time she would say she was saved and then she wasn’t sure. But at the age of 35 she truly got saved and Jesus Changed her from the inside out. The change was noticeable.

    All of that was a long time ago. As an adult she has been a big influence in my life. She knows all about me and loves me anyway. I have always trusted her with my secrets. She has always given me a safe place to fail.

    She decided to change churches and joined one in the next town. After only a couple of years she left there. I really haven’t discussed much about that with her. Then she heard about a church in a college town that was about an hour and twenty minutes from where she lived. She and her daughter started going to this church. This church was Calvinistic through and through. She fell for it hook, line and sinker. They eventually started a small mission church closer to her. All of this happened in 2004. She didn’t mention anything about Calvinism to me.

    In 2007 I had two hip surgeries. She brought her mom and dad down to Florida to visit with my folks. We all kind of felt like this would be the last time our parents would be together this side of heaven. We were right. My mom and dad went home in 2008. Her dad in 2010 and her mom in 2011. While I was in the hospital she came and we would talk. I don’t know why but all of a sudden during our talking I asked her if she was a Calvinist and she said yes. Honestly I didn’t know a lot about Calvinism back then. I went to visit her in Tennessee and we talked a lot about it. She gave me some papers on Calvinism and it looked at the time to be ok. I took the papers and a book back home with me. I began to study this thing called Calvinism. My dad’s momma called Calvinists, Hard-shells. That they are…a tough nut to crack so to speak.

    I told my friend that I believed in the depravity of man. Man is capable of any sin, even a saved man has that capability. But I believe that depravity is a condition of the heart not a malfunction of our brains. While the lost man doesn’t seek God, God seeks him and man is able to respond to God. The unconditional election was just wrong. We must respond to the offer of God’s gift. He doesn’t just “zap” salvation on us.

    The blasphemy is this Limited Atonement. I told her that limited atonement was absolutely wrong. Jesus Christ died for all of mankind. I got the old argument of well then if he died for all he was a failure to those in hell. NO, it is those in hell will have no excuse when they stand before God at the great white throne judgment. They will realize they could have been saved because Jesus atoned for their sin too but they rejected him.

    I told my friend that rejecting Jesus Christ is the only sin that sends someone to hell. All of the sins that mankind does are a result of the fall in the garden of Eden. But it is the blasphemous rejection of Jesus Christ that sends one to hell.

    Of course I made no headway with her. I am sad because we have not spoken since all this happened. For now I figure that she is not wanting to talk with me. Since we live 7 hours away from each other it is not a situation where we would be in the same church and I had to take a stand against Calvinism. But with that said, and as bad as it would hurt me, I will stand on truth, I will “choose this day who I will serve” I would choose Jesus Christ. I pray it doesn’t come to me having to make that choice. I love her like a sister. But I would make the choice. I have done it before and with God’s grace I would do it again.

    Thanks for “listening”

    Redeemed wrote:

    Sharon, I don’t know how you define friendship, but with friends like that, one doesn’t need enemies!

    Friends don’t always agree on everything, but Calvinism is such a devious doctrine that it strikes at the very core of the Gospel. If your friend was saved before and then became deluded by that doctrine, and she does in fact have the Holy Spirit, you should be able to reason with her and speak the truth in love. On the other hand, if she is so far gone and firmly entrenched in Calvinism is it possible that she never really ever knew the Lord with saving knowledge?

    If she is your best friend, you owe it to her to approach her in love and have this discussion. I find it most helpful to start with TULIP. This boils down the beliefs. Arm yourself with the Word and the knowledge of those beliefs and why they are unbiblical. Let your friend know that it is out of a heart of concern and not to simply argue.

    I don’t see how a friendship can be maintained on a close level under the circumstances when the gulf is so wide. Pray for your friend and for opportunities to share the truth with her. If she won’t listen to the truth, then it may be time to come out and separate from her and then release her for God to deal with her. Light has no fellowship with darkness and Calvinism/Reformed doctrine is about as dark as it gets.

    Just sayin…………….

  • Aaron

    Jacob Prasch actually teaches the false gospel of works that says you could lose salvation by “too many bad/lacking works”. Which is why he doesn’t have a problem with calvinism, which is basically the same false gospel of works except it would say that the “too many bad/lacking works” would mean you never had salvation in the first place.

    He seeks an audience at any cost. Which is why he will support false teachers all over the place.

  • Peter

    I have read many books refuting Calvinism including “What Love is This?” and “The Other Side of Calvinism”, but I recently bought a book on Kindle. If anyone is interested in this topic, this author refutes each and every proof text supporting Calvinism. He is a brilliant man who is a math genius and a lawyer. Here is the link on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Deconstructing-Calvinism-ebook/dp/B006GHGV2W/ref=sr_1_14?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1381207816&sr=1-14&keywords=calvinism
    This is as good as any work that I have come across.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Peter

    Thanks so much!!

  • Peter

    Deborah, the nice thing is that it is less than $3 if you buy it for an e-reader

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Peter

    I will make a plan at that price. I can afford $3 ;)

  • Deborah wrote:

    Peter

    I will make a plan at that price. I can afford $3 ;)

    Sounds like a good plan. Can I join in on the $3 plan? Would love to read the book.

  • Peter

    Thomas – just need a kindle and you’re good to go. Of course, the cost is $83 if you need to buy the kindle first :)

  • anonymouse

    Aaron wrote:

    works”. Which is why he doesn’t have a problem with calvinism, which is basically the same false gospel of works except it would say that the “too many bad/lacking works” would mean you never had salvation in the first place.

    He seeks an audience at any cost. Which is why he will support false teachers all over the place.

    You have obviously spent zero time listening to or reading Prasch because there never was a man further removed from the portrait you give.

  • anonymouse

    You’ve spent many hours dissecting and criticising Jacob, you have spent zero really listening to him. If you had you would know that the quote I highlighted above is entirely untrue…you would know because you would have heard him speak, in context and fullness, and you would know that he both speaks out against Calvinism all the time, and also that he never seeks an audience at any cost. But you don’t know these things because you have not listened, your words are not based on experience and knowledge. I challenge you, in Christ, to actually spend some time listening to the man – to seek out his sermons, plenty available on the net (RadioFreeChurch/Youtube etc) and see what he really says. You may have other concerns about Prasch that are valid, on these 2 points I assure you that you are wrong.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    anonymouse

    How do you know what I have listened to or not? I have listened to countless hours of JP I have video’s from him coming out my ears and I in fact have not heard him once speak out against Calvinism. He does however endorse George Whitfield many many times who is a Calvinist and John Wesley who is a Methodist. Jacob Prasch is in fact an Arminian as he follows the teachings of John Wesley to the max. Calvinism is not Christian and neither is Methodism.

    Just search his website and you will see.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    anonymouse

    Please remember this, when you got saved, it was because you were seeking Jesus Christ – Jacob Prasch had nothing to do with it. The Holy Spirit came to abide in you and He is the one that has been teaching you. Do not put men on a pedestal.

  • anonymouse

    I know full well that my salvation has nothing to do with Jacob Prasch, and that he is at best just a fallible man,(hey, he admits that himself!) I’m well aware of both I assure you…I was saved for years before I ever came across him! I’m not putting him on a pedestal either, I’m well aware of his flaws, and I too have some issues with some things concerning him…but I have heard him speak, both on tape and in person and in both mediums I have heard him denounce Calvinism…he does it all the time! so I know that you are wrong on this point, as you are on other things you have said about him, it’s as simple as that. I’m not here to make Jacob Prasch out to be a paragon of anything Deborah, that is not my point, but it is unfair to say things that are wrong about him, you know that.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    anonymouse

    >> but I have heard him speak, both on tape and in person and in both mediums I have heard him denounce Calvinism…

    The BIG problem with JP is he speaks out of both sides of his mouth, he says one thing and then says another thing that is completely opposite to what he has said in the past. He may as well have denounced Calvinism on some of the things you have heard, but as you can see from the above articles (X2) he agrees with Calvinism and Calvinists.

    >> Deborah, that is not my point, but it is unfair to say things that are wrong about him, you know that

    Really? lol, you kidding. THOSE ARE HIS WORDS – not mine anonymouse. You are willingly trying to ignore that facts here and argue with me on something that he has said, on more than one occasion. Don’t argue with me, question Prasch instead.

    Look, you can’t say one thing and then go back and say another thing, you stick to it. And this is a big problem with Mr Prasch. He is inconsistent in what he believes and therefore he cannot be believed – at all.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    anonymouse

    In this article Jacob Prasch – Moderate Calvinists are Good, Hyper Calvinists are Bad.

    Jacob says:

    “While Moriel and Jacob Prasch are not Calvinistic and do not accept unconditional “Once Saved Always Saved” (as neither did John Wesley), a distinction must be made between moderate Calvinists and extreme ones. While we do not agree with John MacArthur on a few issues (his interpretation of eternal security and Cessationism), most of his ministry is otherwise very good.” [Emphasis added] —http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/church-issues/aberrational-theology/dan-corner

    So according to Prasch everything else about Calvinism is ok except for eternal security and cessationsim. So JP is saying that predestination/Election is OK??? Apparently so, his only gripe is the Once saved always saved doctrine. –> “While Moriel and Jacob Prasch are not Calvinistic and do not accept unconditional “Once Saved Always Saved””

    And then in the above article, God must bless Ray Comfort, Justin Peters, Bob De Waay, Paul Washer and John MacArthur – 5 Calvinists that “tell the truth” and “uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel.” according to Jacob Prasch. If Calvinism is a false doctrine (which it is, it is from the pit of hell) how can their ministers speak the truth and proclaim a true gospel?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    anonymouse

    There is no difference between moderate Calvinists and hyper Calvinists a Calvinist is a Calvinist, you are either elect or you are not. So I don’t know what nonsense JP is speaking about when he says: “a distinction must be made between moderate Calvinists and extreme ones”

  • How can Prasch say everything else about John MacArthur is OK when Maccie denies the core doctrine of the Bible – SALVATION. The Bible very clearly teaches that Jesus loves and died for all people (John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 Joh 2:2; 1 Tim 4:10) Maccie says: “No, that’s not true. Jesus only loves and died for the elect.”

    What does the Bible say?

    Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (Mat 7:15-18)

    Perhaps anonymouse would like to prove to us that Maccie’s teaching that God only loves and died for the elect is good fruit. Please bear in mind, anonymouse, that you must prove it from Scripture and if you can’t you must admit that John MacArthur, like all the rest of the Calvinists, are false teachers. And if they are false, you cannot possibly tolerate Prasdsch’s accolades of John MacArthur.

    Deborah, why are all the comments in bold letters?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thomas

    >> Deborah, why are all the comments in bold letters?

    That’s a good question. I don’t know lol.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ahh I figured it out, it’s fixed now. One comment’s html code on the bold was not complete it appeared to affect all comments from them on – interesting.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Ahh I figured it out, it’s fixed now. One comment’s html code on the bold was not complete it appeared to affect all comments from them on – interesting.

    Thanks Debs.

  • Warren McGrew

    Jacob Prasch believes John MacArthur is an apostate as he claims you can take the mark of the beast and repent later. This is an “in your face Jesus” as Jesus told us the very opposite. You will not find a better teacher than Jacob Prasch. I have listened to most of his messages. I am a former Calvinist who was delivered. I am very critical when it comes to the truth. I do not follow any man. Paul told us that after he died, wolves and false teachers would come into the church. You won’t here this being taught, but Paul’s statement places a question mark over EVERY teacher, including the church fathers, who came after Paul.

  • Warren McGrew

    I am very happy to hear that you have been delivered from the dangerous clutches of Calvinism. I would like to suggest that Prasch publicly retracts what he had said about John MacArthur. In that way he would at least no longer give credit to an apostate and lead those who regard him (Prasch) as a great teacher astray.

  • Warren McGrew

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Warren McGrew

    I am very happy to hear that you have been delivered from the dangerous clutches of Calvinism. I would like to suggest that Prasch publicly retracts what he had said about John MacArthur. In that way he would at least no longer give credit to an apostate and lead those who regard him (Prasch) as a great teacher astray.

    Jacob has made it public. He rips him to shreds, as well he should be. See http://propheticwitnessmovementnewportbranch.blogspot.com/2014/01/short-video-with-jacob-prasch.html

  • Warren McGrew

    Jacob rips him to pieces on the issue of the mark of the beast but what about his statement that MacArthur, as a staunch Calvinist, preaches the truth?

  • Warren McGrew

    Thomas, here is the clear evidence Prasch is rejecting MacArthur. Moriel is currently having a problem with their server. You can see his remarks at my blog site. http://wmcgrew.blogspot.com/2013/12/john-macarthur-polluting-world-blood-on.html

  • Warren McGrew

    Thomas, also he has a video on YouTube. He blasts MacArthur, as well as he should have. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOCqPUOJGsI

  • Warren McGrew

    Jacob Prasch knew from the outset that MacArthur represents a god who only loves the elect and died on the cross for them only. And yet he respected him as a teacher “who tells the truth.”

  • Warren McGrew

    Just as in many denominations I believe there are “Calvinsts” that love the Lord and the election part is just not clear to them (as it should not be clear). Even though I suffered in Calvinism, I still was blessed to learn the bible. I did have to “unlearn myself” with the help of the Holy Spirit. Jacob Prasch does not examine every teacher. I bet he will be more careful now!! I praise God for exposing MacArthur in a way that will be used of God. We all need to pray for Jacob as my understanding he was very sick last fall and close to death. I do not know of anyone like Jacob in the body and he has been a blessing to me as he exposes many the same false teachers I do. Jesus said four times “be not deceived”. Wow! God bless you!

  • Warren McGrew wrote

    Just as in many denominations I believe there are “Calvinsts” that love the Lord and the election part is just not clear to them (as it should not be clear). Even though I suffered in Calvinism, I still was blessed to learn the bible. I did have to “unlearn myself” with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus Christ either lied or He was correct in saying: “You will know the truth and the truth will make you free.” Knowing the truth also means to know the lie. Not knowing or acknowledging the lie is the result of not knowing the truth. No one can believe in election unto salvation and claim to be saved. There are too many passages in Scripture that refute election unto salvation. The notion that man does not have a free will, that God loved and died only for the elect, that you must hate God’s enemies but love your own enemies (as if there is a difference) in order to be called a child of God, etc. are all typical examples of the character assassination of God. Why do I mention God’s character as a means to discern the truth in salvation? Because Jesus once said “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3), You cannot say you love God and then say things like “God hates sinners,” or “God hates the so-called non-elect.” How on earth can thy say they love the Lord and at the same time believe all the lies being disseminated among people? That is, as I said, character assassination.

    You said: “Even though I suffered in Calvinism, I still was blessed to learn the bible.” This, to me, sums up the entire doctrine of Reformed Theology. Jesus said: “[Ye] search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” (John 5:39-40). Calvinists do not come to Jesus in the normal sense of the word. Why? Because they believe the lie that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. It simply means that God was the only Person in the entire universe who could devise the means and the way to draw lost sinners to His Son for their salvation, i.e. His cross, That is why John 12:32 says “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32). But, as you know when you tell a lie, you must always cover up one lie with another lie. And that’s exactly what Calvinists do when they say the “all men” in this verse are “all the elect” and not all men without distinction.

    God clearly says that those who distort his doctrine of salvation are liable to be deceived by the deceptions He Himself sends. What else are they doing when they deliberately and cunningly distort and rip his doctrine of salvation apart?

    And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming. The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity and working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs and delusive marvels—[all of them] lying wonders—And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved. Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12).

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9).

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Warren

    1) Jacob Prasch speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He will agree and disagree with John MacArthur. JP ONLY recently had something negative to say about JMA because of JMA’s Mark of the Bearst comment. The fact of the matter JP should have said something about Calvinism but he does not because he follows men like George Whitfield (Methodist/Calvinist).

    2) Why are you following a another man? JP is part of the Hebrew Roots movement, teaches that you need the Midrash in order to study the bible properly. And still believes Chuck Smith (Calvery Chapel) was a great guy:

    3) Please open your eyes and stop worshipping this man “I do not know of anyone like Jacob in the body”

    4) If there was people caught up in the Calvinist cult that are genuinely saved and are struggling to come to terms with the doctrines of grace then they are not to be called Calvinists, they are actually Christians and they will sooner or later leave as the Holy Spirit directs them away from false teaching.

  • Roger Quill

    I believe Ray Comfort, although he associates with Calvinists, has denied being a Calvinist.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEoQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fopenairoutreach.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F5891&ei=zy5nU7qgLZD3oATDwoHgDA&usg=AFQjCNH1mb4sUTRSVr13MB5HqKl21Cusdg&sig2=dxKfRpgY_PxnHOFLRzB0WA&bvm=bv.65636070,bs.1,d.cGU

    Given that you reckon Eternal Security to be the truth and (based on your links) of import to the continuance of the Christian life, it seems peculiar that you would not here not that “deficiency”, that is according to you and not I, in the doctrine of a number of the others that you have noted such as Chuck Smith, whose doctrine is functionally that of the common characterization of the Arminian seeming to hold to “conditional security” with the possibility of apostasy, although he may have had a tendency to beat about the bush on this point of his dogma.

    May all be well with you.

  • Trevor

    I follow Jacob Prasch very closely, and he most definitely does not believe Calvinism and he is very critical of it (he refers to Calvinists as Gnostics who spiritualize and twist scriptures to do with Israel and Election). He even says that 85% of what John MacArthur teaches is good to very good, but we part company in the other areas.

    You need to get your facts straight before pulling things out of context. I also disagree with MacArthur on Calvinism but he has some very good teachings and I’ve enjoyed listening to many of his sermons. Satan is laughing at the church tearing itself apart and failing to reach out to the world.

    On essentials unity, on non essentials love. No Christian is perfect or holds 100% truth. I recently left a church that was pushing Calvinism, but I don’t deny that they are Christian brothers and sisters. I posted on their website why I strongly disagreed before I left and that was that.

  • Trevor,

    You really sound just like a good and lovely little ecumenist.

    “I don’t agree with everything Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Calvinism, the Emergents and the rest of the isms say but they all do have some very good teachings.” Don’t you know that this is the way Satan works?

    For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Co 11:13-15)

    You wrote:

    On essentials unity, on non essentials love. No Christian is perfect or holds 100% truth. I recently left a church that was pushing Calvinism, but I don’t deny that they are Christian brothers and sisters. I posted on their website why I strongly disagreed before I left and that was that.

    The doctrine of salvation is not an essential? – the very doctrine Calvinists are constantly distorting and misrepresenting? Really???

    Shame on you, how can you leave your brothers and sisters in Christ?

    You have taken the liberty to post on their site because you strongly disagree with them but when we do the same on our own site, you are up in arms? What are you – a hypocrite?

    I really think you should get your essentials and non-essentials right before you say anything more.

    Bully for Jacob Prasch. He is a real modern-day Paul of Tarsus who said – “I agree with 85% of everything the false apostles and prophets say and teach, but we part company in other areas.” Indeed, the area where Paul of Tarsus and the rest of the false teachers parted was the area just before the gates of hell itself.

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

    If you can prove to me that Calvinism is not another Gospel but the pure, unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ then I will publicly offer you an apology. However, if you can’t, then you owe us an apology.

    Listen up my friend, the very reason why false apostles present you with 99.9% truth and 0.1% poison is to deceive you. What did Jesus say? “Take heed that no man deceive you.” I assume that you are one of those oh so loving and compassionate Christians who leave their brothers and sisters because you cannot agree with them, but don’t care a hoot when others are being misled by those same dear brothers and sisters in Christ. And that’s why you can agree with Prasch who said:

    May God Bless Dave Hunt, Roger Oakland, Tony Peace, David Hocking, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Warren Smith, Ray Yungen, Chuck Smith, Jack Hibbs, Bill Randles, Philip Powell, Mike Gendron, David Wilkerson, Ray Comfort, Justin Peters, Paul Washer , John MacArthur, Stuart Dool, Doug Harris, John Higgins, Joseph Fara, Bob De Waay and the other servants of the One True God who labor to uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel in this age of apostasy and decline. None of these men are perfect or without flaw, nor above all either am I. But by the grace of God all of them tell the truth.”

    Of course no man is morally perfect or without flaw. Even Paul acknowledged that he was the chief of sinners but his Gospel was always flawless and perfect.

  • Trevor wrote:

    I follow Jacob Prasch very closely, and he most definitely does not believe Calvinism and he is very critical of it (he refers to Calvinists as Gnostics who spiritualize and twist scriptures to do with Israel and Election). He even says that 85% of what John MacArthur teaches is good to very good, but we part company in the other areas.

    Imagine Peter standing up on the Day of Pentecost and saying the following,

    Whatever I am going to tell you on this historic day is only 85% true; the remaining 15% are all lies. But, don’t fret, the 85% truth will unite us into a beautiful bond of ecumenical love and blissful joy, to such an extent that we may embrace each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. Yeah, there may come a time when we are going to leave (abandon) our 15%-er brothers and sisters in Christ but don’t let that discourage you in any way; we will remain brothers and sisters in Christ despite our non-essential differences such as what it means to be saved. Indeed, salvation has always been a non-essential uppermost in God’s mind and that is why He sent his only Son to suffer and die for us on a cross.

  • Mary

    We certainly are living in confusing times, especially in the church. I think you have more hope of finding the truth by staying home and reading your bibles and finding the like minded believers and fellowship with them. Unfortunately these men like JPRASCH, John Mac are both teaching false gospels and need to marked and avoided regardless how well they preach on certain topics. This is a ploy of the enemy to reel you in.

    Neither of their gospels will save you, they have been such a source of division for christians. Their teachings will mislead you. They are both salvation by works gospels, they preach an accursed gospel. They will held accountable for all the souls they have misled.

    Stay away from the Calvanists/Arminst/Romanists, too many people follow John Macarthur, just because he is intelligent and articulate, pray for Mac that he comes out of his error, he has been told by many that he is in error. I believe he is a modern day judaiser. If u are not one of the elect, i am afraid JM its not good news. Calvanists have a differnt gospel and Jesus. Pray for god to open their eyes to this satanic jesus they serve.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mary

    I agree with you wholeheartedly!!

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