Peeps around the World

Translate blog:

Blog Stats

wordpress stat

20 Most Recent Comments Scrolling

Christian Top 1000
SA Topsites ::

Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

Icon Mongoose Icon75 Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

EternalSecurity NOSASvsOSAS Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1) I have debated many people on the topic of eternal security among them atheists, Calvinists, Muslims, Afrikaner Israelites, Seventh Day Adventists, Sabbatarians, Charismatics and, believe it or not, even Christians.

None of them made such a profound impact on me than the one I had with a group of Christians who tried to convince a young man that he can lose his salvation. The young man actually believed that he had already lost his salvation and was so stricken with despondency, I thought he was on the verge of committing suicide.

During my conversation and attempts to convince him that a saint cannot lose his salvation, the other members of a well-known Bible forum attacked me head-on, accusing me of all kinds of things. I could sense that Satan was really doing his utmost to keep the young man in bondage to a lie so many Christians believe to be true.

By the grace of God, the dark cloud of misery and uncertainty lifted from the young man and he eventually knew for certain that he never lost his salvation. We must remember that our younger generation of brothers and sisters in the Lord are exposed to immense temptations and many of them do succumb to them.

The ensuing battle with Satan and his host can be so intense that the saint begins to contemplate suicide. “You call yourself a Christian. Look what you’ve done now. Look at you, you wretch. You’ve lost your salvation.” It is always a good thing to remind ourselves of these words:-

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

The mere thought that you are standing is proof that you may have already fallen. If you have, don’t remain there. Get on your knees, enter into the holy of holies through the blood of Christ and ask forgiveness (Hebrews 10:19-23). Then, get on your feet and continue to follow Christ Jesus. Why is Satan so keen to sow doubt in the hearts and minds of God’s saints?

His main purpose is to get you to distrust Jesus Christ, your only Saviour. If he can get you to turn your eyes away from Jesus where He is seated at the right hand of God and turn them inwardly to yourself, he has gained a foothold that can cause havoc in your life.

A brother in Christ, whose acquaintance I was privileged to make on Facebook, asked me to critique an article he had written on free-will. A comparatively large part of his article included his thoughts on eternal security. At first I was a little reluctant but quickly realized that Louis was a man of gentle persuasion who could throw and receive punches with dignity.

With his permission which he granted me without any hesitancy, I now present to you our little debate for you to make your choice for or against eternal security. Please choose your words with placid gentleness when you comment. Thank you.

The believer’s security

LOUIS: No other issue arising from Augustinianism/Calvinism is of wider interest today than that of “eternal security,” or perseverance of the saints (also called once ‘saved always saved’). True Calvinists still hold on to this 5th doctrine of TULIP as a logical part and conclusion of their theology.

Many who have abandoned or minimizing the other four doctrines, have generally held firmly on to this one, even when its logical foundations have been removed. In their minds it followed as a necessary conclusion from their view of divine sovereignty, predestination and unconditional election.

It is certain that the elect can never be lost. The mild Calvinistic position includes all those who have departed from strict Calvinism but who still hold to unconditional security for the believer. There are serious problems with this modified view.

Eternal Security is not based on the doctrine of Calvinism

TOM: I can assure you that my belief in eternal security is not some kind of residue of TULIP or any other Calvinistic doctrine. It is based entirely on the promises of God in Scripture. I wouldn’t call the Calvinist’s view of eternal security “Once Saved Always Saved.” I would rather refer to it as “Once allegedly Elected Always allegedly Elected.” Allow me to explain. True repentance involves a godly sorrow (sorrow approved by God when His Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment).

This happens when the sinner realizes that he/she is lost (bound for hell) and of his own volition comes to Jesus to seek forgiveness and redemption because he/she knows they desperately need a Saviour. “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

The elect cannot possibly know that they are sick and that they need a Physician to heal them. Dead men aren’t sick. They are dead and cannot possibly know that they are terminally ill.  (To a Calvinist “dead in sins and trespasses” means that the sinner is as dead as a corpse and completely unable to hear and respond to the Gospel Call. To substantiate this view they use the resurrection of Lazarus as an example of regeneration. Read here.)

I notice that you have failed to mention one of the most important passages in Scripture dealing with eternal security and that is 2 Corinthians 7:10 “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”

The truly converted sinner will never regret his or her conversion/repentance/salvation and turn his/her back on God, no matter how difficult the road ahead may be. Only those who had a “conversion” inspired by the sorrow of the world eventually turn their backs on God because they are not genuinely saved. They are usually the ones who say: “I used to be a Bible believing Christian but I no longer believe in God and His Son.”

Pharaoh had such a “conversion.” “And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.” (Exodus 9:27) “Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you.” (Exodus 10:16).

An unbeliever’s mere acknowledgement of sin means nothing. Pharaoh proved it. People do that every day. An unbeliever’s acknowledgment of sin without a conviction of being lost (hell-bound and deservedly so) cannot save. Jesus can only find and save sinners who know, realize and acknowledge that they are lost (Luke 19:10).

I usually ask Calvinists: “When were you convicted of judgment – before or after your monergistic regeneration?” They can’t answer: “Before regeneration” because a corpse cannot be convicted of anything. And they cannot answer: “after regeneration” because what’s the point in being convicted of judgement and hell when they have already been delivered from it? That’s preposterous. The only answer they can give, is the one a Calvinist once gave me:

The bible never says that God’s people were ever bound for hell, it says they were chosen “in Christ” before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). The conviction of sin is usually misinterpreted by God’s people to be the conviction that they are hell bound, the gospel explains to them that they are not, because of what Christ did FOR them.”

“Conviction of sin is the belief in the reality of sin in light of God’s holiness and perfection. Many of God’s children believe this to mean that they are going to hell. They are not. That is why they need to hear the good news of their salvation, so that they can believe it, rejoice in it, and profit from it.

The gospel doesn’t make their salvation true, their salvation IS TRUE and the gospel proclaims it to the Lord’s people who receive it by faith and profit from that understanding.”

So you see, Calvinists have always been Jesus Christ’s sheep, they’ve always been saved (God’s elect). They only need to be made aware that they are saved (elected) and live accordingly (perseverance of the saints). There is absolutely no difference between them and the Emerging Church who claims that Jesus already dwells mystically in sinners and they only need to be made aware of it.

Is this not perhaps the reason why Neo-Calvinists like John Piper and Mark Driscoll have penchants for the mystic practices in the Emerging Church? I’m no prophet but I predicted more than seven years ago that this was going to happen. Sadly, Total Depravity (Total Inability) deprives the Calvinist of true repentance and salvation.

They are deceived and don’t know it. I have tried for many years to figure out why they cling so tenaciously to John Calvin’s doctrines and have come up with two answers. They are deathly afraid to violate God’s sovereignty and the other reason is simply “The Mystery of Iniquity.” I, therefore, wouldn’t associate “Once Saved Always Saved” with “Once allegedly Elected Always allegedly Elected.”

LOUIS: 4.1 Logical inconsistency In his Institutes vol. 1, p. 8-9 Calvin makes a long statement which plainly means that laymen reading the Scriptures are to interpret them according to his doctrine. Jacobus Arminius discovered the same priority of doctrine at Leyden University.

Gomarus, the professor of New Testament studies, insisted that the Scriptures should always be interpreted according to the creed, while Arminius held to the Word of God as the final authority. The doctrine of security, then, was not derived from the Bible but from philosophical and logical considerations.

TOM: I beg to differ. If eternal security was derived from philosophical and logical considerations and not from the Bible, then we should consider the death and resurrection of Jesus (the very foundation and bedrock of eternal security) from a purely philosophical and logical angle instead of from the revelation given to us in the Bible.

If the death and crucifixion of Jesus is the bedrock/foundation of our salvation, which of course it is, then we need nothing else to secure our salvation, least of all philosophy. “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8). In fact, your entire discourse on the issue of eternal security is based purely on philosophical presuppositions. T

The following proves this.

LOUIS: One cannot insist on unconditional eternal security of the believer, while neglecting or denying unconditional election and irresistible grace (See TULIP). When Calvinistic evangelicals preach the Biblical Gospel to all men and declare that people are genuinely free to receive or reject it; they are denying the Calvinistic concepts of unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace.

And when they say that once a person has repented and received Christ through a free, voluntary act of faith he is no longer free to renounce Christ through a voluntarily act of unbelief and disobedience into apostasy, they are taking a position unsupported by Calvinism, the Bible or sound reason.

TOM: Your train of thought is fallacious. You cannot assume that because TULIP says that unconditional election requires no free-will that it debunks free-will in unconditional eternal security. You seem to be saying that TULIP’s unconditional election is the only barometer by which eternal security must be assessed.

That’s a pure philosophical argument which, to my mind is, holds no water. To draw a parallel between two things just because the same word “unconditional” appears in both is not kosher. I have already proven to you above that the Calvinistic view of eternal security (“Once allegedly Elected, Always allegedly Elected”) is worlds apart from “Once Saved, Always Saved,” simply because the Calvinistic foundation for salvation is a false one.

The premise that If man is free to receive or renounce Christ’s death on the cross as the only means for his salvation, it follows that he is also free to renounce his salvation once he has been saved, is also fallacious. I have already shown earlier, that the truly repentant sinner who realized that he/she was lost without Jesus will never regret his/her salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Those who regret their “salvation” were never saved in the first place because they built their “redemption” on a false foundation. This happens frequently within the ranks of the Charismatic fraternity where health wealth and prosperity doctrines are put out as proof for one’s salvation.

When most do not experience what they’ve been told, they grow despondent, renounce God and turn their backs on Him. As you can see I tend to base my conclusion on biblical facts rather than on philosophical arguments.

LOUIS: The modern “eternal security people” are inconsistent when they declare that sinners are free to repent and exercise faith in Christ (through the aid of the Spirit), but once having been saved, they are no longer free to reject Him (through resisting the Spirit).

TOM: I have already dealt with your assertion in the previous paragraph. One more thought will suffice. You call the “Once Saved Always Saved” crowd the “modern ‘eternal security people.’” Is there any difference between Paul’s and the other apostles’ views on eternal security and the modern day “eternal security people?”

I don’t think so. Paul said: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” (2 Timothy 1:12). Paul uses the past tense, as you may know, not because he once believed and then fell into unbelief.

He was referring to the day in Ananias’ house in Damascus where he called on the Name of the Lord for his salvation. To him, and this should be the case with all the truly saved believers, faith is to commit your entire being – spirit, soul and body – into the hands of Jesus Christ on the basis that He has paid the penalty for all of your sins.

It was this commitment (the relinquishing of his own authority on his life) by faith alone that gave Paul the absolute assurance that Christ Himself would preserve him until that day. It ties in perfectly with what he says in Philippians 1: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6).

Was there any possibility that Paul could renounce his faith in Jesus Christ, turn his back on him and turn away? Absolutely! But I think the issue here is not whether he could renounce his faith but rather whether he wanted to, and the answer is a resounding “no” because he knew from the very outset into whose hands he committed his entire life.

May I ask you whether you would ever want to renounce your faith in Jesus Christ and turn your back on him never to return again? No? Why then would anyone else who’s had a true salvivc encounter with Jesus Christ even contemplate such a disastrous thing? Ah, of course, it is always the other person who loses his salvation and not I.

Some Clichés of Eternal Security

LOUIS: 4.2 Some clichés of the security doctrine To promote this doctrine, the mild Calvinists have made popular a number of brief statements “Once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son” This is not binding in a spiritual sense.

All believers were once children of the devil. If the analogy is binding, we must always remain so. Since children of the devil can become children of God, the analogy is obviously not binding. John 8:42, 44 and Ephesians 2:3 say that we were children of the devil and by nature children of wrath. If that cliché is true, that would prevent any unbeliever form ever becoming a believer and being saved.

TOM: Having been a child of the devil can hardly be used as an analogy against the “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine. If anyone, who is being held captive in the clutches of Satan, must remain there because of a manmade binding analogy “once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son,” then Satan is the omnipotent God and not YAHWEH.

Moreover, salvation would have then been a cruel hoax and YAHWEH the author of it. What did Jesus say to his disciples when they asked Him “Who then can be saved?” He said: “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:27). Nonetheless, is it possible with God to save someone without them having to put their trust in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross?

Doesn’t that limit God’s sovereignty and omnipotence? (Hebrews 11:6). Indeed, nothing is impossible with God but in his salvivic work He has sovereignly and omnipotently decided to accomplish his salvation – which has never been impossible with Him – through faith and faith alone. If faith could limit God’s omnipotence and sovereignty, we would again squarely be in the Calvinist camp and we don’t want to go there, do we?

If the analogy “once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son” could be applied to both God’s and Satan’s security systems, we would have to say that Satan’s security system is equal to or just as good as that of God and vice versa. Needless to say, that would be disastrous for God and a resounding and eternal victory for Satan.

As you yourself said “that would prevent any unbeliever from ever becoming a believer and being saved.” However, the millions upon millions of sinners who’d been saved throughout history prove beyond any doubt that not only is God’s salvation but also his security system magnanimously superior, greater and stronger than that of Satan. (Matthew 12:29; 1 John 3:8; Colossians 2:15).

The phrase “ex agorazo” is used several times in the New Testament and denotes Christ’s formidable and irreversible redemption. It conveys the meaning of someone going into a market place, purchasing slaves and taking them into his home never to sell them again.

While it is hypothetically possible that the analogies “once a child, always a child” and “once a son, always a son” may be applied to Satan because it is so easily applied by saints to God’s salvation and his preserving grace, the maxim “once saved, always saved” cannot possibly be used of Satan. It can only be applied to God.

Yes, it is true that we would have remained sons and daughters of Satan IF Jesus Christ never became flesh. Yes, if He hadn’t paid such a magnanimously high price for our deliverance from the clutches of Satan we would still have been Satan’s sons and daughters. Therefore, the notion that a saved saint can lose his salvation and forever remain a son or a daughter of Satan demeans the magnanimous salvation of Jesus Christ on the cross.

It would mean that Satan is stronger than Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice has satisfied God the Father for all eternity why wouldn’t it satisfy the saved sinner? Indeed, it does because he would never regret his salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10)

LOUIS: “A person who is once born can never be unborn This is also a subtle way of convincing those who are not careful in their thinking. The Bible never uses the term “unborn,” for the opposite of being born is to die, not to be unborn. The Bible clearly teaches that one who has been born can die. Life does not end by “unbirth,” but by death.

A fire that is once kindled is never “unkindled,” but it can be quenched. A fish that is once caught is never “uncaught,” but it can be cast away as worthless. Likewise, a person who is once born can die, both spiritually and later physically. Nothing at all is proved by the fact that we do not use the term “unborn” to express the end of life.

Yes, I too have heard children of God using this analogy to substantiate OSAS but must admit that I myself do not like it. Nicodemus fell into the same carnally minded trap when he asked: “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” (John 3:4). He too thought that man first had to be unborn before he could be born again.

Jesus didn’t make it any easier for him to understand when He said: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:5-8).

Note the expression “of water and of the Spirit.” Many believe that “water” is a reference to baptism by immersion in water but that would make rebirth a mixture of something physical and spiritual while God Himself says that physical phenomena profit men nothing (is void of any salvivic properties) (John 6 :63).

Therefore, the “water” must refer to a spiritual phenomenon that is equally potent in salvation than the dynamic work of the Holy Spirit. And indeed Jesus confirms this in John 4, Revelation 22:17 and John 15:3. The reason why I am making such a spiel about spirit verses physical is to illustrate that as soon as we mix the two we are immediately prone to error. And you seem to be doing just that. You say: “The Bible clearly teaches that one who has been born can die. Life does not end by “unbirth,” but by death . . . . Likewise, a person who is once born can die, both spiritually and later physically.”

And then you conclude: “Nothing at all is proved by the fact that we do not use the term “unborn” to express the end of life.” The fact that a saint dies physically does not in any way prove that he can also die spiritually. Physical phenomena cannot prove spiritual phenomena.

If physical phenomena were able to prove spiritual and supernatural phenomena we wouldn’t have a single atheist left in this world. But let’s assume that physical phenomena such as organic death can in some way represent spiritual death and as a result we may use the inevitability of physical death as an example for the inevitability of spiritual death whenever saints fall away.

At first glance this seems to be quite feasible when we take into account what Jesus once said, “Let the [spiritually] dead bury their [physically] dead.” (Matthew 8:22). The difference, of course, between the two is that the spiritually dead are still physically alive and have every opportunity to be made spiritually alive through faith in Jesus Christ while the physically dead have no opportunity whatsoever.

Now, to get back to Nicodemus. Look again at Jesus’ answer: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:6). He was saying: “That which is born of the flesh is corruptible (given over to death and decay) and no-one can escape death by re-entering the womb of the mother or by being unborn again.

But that which is born of the Spirit is wrought in the deepest being of man, his spirit, where the seed of the Spirit remains forever. “You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.” (1 Peter 1:23)

LOUIS: “Eternal life has no end; so a person who has eternal life can never lose that life” We must realize from the Bible that what is eternal has neither beginning nor ending. If eternal life cannot be lost because it has no ending, then it cannot be gained either, for it has no beginning.

Accordingly, a person cannot be saved unless he was eternally saved without a beginning. The fact is, eternal life is in the quality of life which is in Jesus Christ. It has its origin nowhere else. “…God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; and he who does not have the Son of God does not have not life” (1John 5:11-12).

If we receive Him, we have eternal life; if we lose Him we lose eternal life. It can have both a beginning and ending in us – a beginning when we repent and believe on Him for personal salvation; an ending if we fall away in apostasy (cease to believe and follow Him). This need never happen, but it is a possibility the believer is often warned against and urged to avoid.

TOM: Your statement “If eternal life cannot be lost because it has no ending, then it cannot be gained either, for it has no beginning. Accordingly, a person cannot be saved unless he was eternally saved without a beginning” makes no sense, at least to me. But bear with me to see whether I understand you correctly.

Eternal life is a Person, and I think you acknowledged this when you quoted 1 John 5:11-12, “and this life is in His Son.” In the first place, eternal life cannot be gained by man. That is a given and indisputable fact. It is given without price to everyone who believes, as the first part of 1 John 5:11 and 12 plainly say.

As such, eternal life in a repentant sinner has a specific beginning, i.e. when he/she puts their trust in Jesus in whom eternal life has no beginning. Thus, there are two features closely interwoven in the one concept “eternal life” – the one with a beginning and the other with no beginning. Yes, of course there can be no eternal life if it had a beginning.

It would mean that Jesus who is the essence of eternal life had a beginning. The logical supposition, if eternal life had a beginning, would be that it also has an ending. But now, since it has no beginning in Jesus Christ it cannot possibly have an ending.

Voila, the eternal life that was begun in a repentant sinner the moment he/she put their trust in Jesus for their salvation cannot possibly have an ending because the beginning of the saint’s eternal life is grounded in Jesus Christ in whom eternal life has no ending.

If it were possible for a saint’s eternal security to cease, it would mean that Jesus Himself would have to cease being the essence of eternal life. Impossible! The fallacy of your argument lies in the supposition that saints need to do something to maintain their salvation. Such a view must inevitably lead to the notion that a saint can lose his/her salvation because failure is commonplace in the lives of frail human beings. Had they not been frail and prone to failure, they would not have had any need for an Advocate and a High Priest. Continuation at:

——————————-

Note:
  • DTW/WAP obtained written permission from Louis Matthys Ackermann to quote him in this series.  Thanks Louis.

——————————- (eternal security)

pixel Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

105 comments to Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

  • Hester

    Sorry I am of the opinion that one can lose your salvation. Just as we are called to Christ and we make the decision to follow Him, (Deut.30:19) so we allow the world to lure us to walk away from the Lord. The Word of God says clearly Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. See Ezekiel 18:24.

    In other words, the man starts out “saved.” He’s been justified. Is in a “position as” righteous. He turns back, away from that “state” of being saved. Not merely just “committing sinful acts.” But as he turns back, he EMBRACES sin as his “life.” He lives it, gives his whole attention to it. This act of treason results in his righteousness not being remembered. He is not “recorded” [in the Book of Life.] His righteousness will not be mentioned…as Jesus said, “I will deny him before My Father.”(Mat 10:33) And Paul writes, “If we endure, We shall also reign with Him, if we deny Him He also will deny us.”(2 Tim 2:12) His outcome, “He shall die…perish.”

    Also, And to repeat this much also: God’s end of the bargain is secure and sure. (Rom 8:31-39) But just as we have the option to “choose life” (Deut 30:19); when we have been, thus, ‘righteous’, we can also deviate from that righteousness and choose evil. (Eze 33:13,18) Notice the wording…

    “When I say to the righteous that he shall live life, but he TRUSTS IN HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND COMMITS INIQUITY, none of all his righteousness shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has done, he shall die.” (Eze 33:13)

    He has been declared righteous (Rom 5:19) but then “withdraws” with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Heb 3:12) because he has been “hardened through the deceitfulness of sin” (vs 13)

    As a friend of mine says as long as we are still on this earth, we still have free will going. And as God was “not well pleased” with most of Israel, who had experienced His salvation through Christ (1 Cor 10:4-5) because they were in unbelief (Heb 3:19), we are exhorted to “fear lest [we] seem to have come short of [His rest].” (Heb 4:1) Anyone who reads the writings of Paul comes away with this sober realization that he was always striving before God. The matter of salvation was a serious matter to him. He did not figure, “Well, I’m saved. It’s all settled now…la dee dah!” No! “Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but…I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”(Phil 3:13-14)

    But, again, I am glad that the Lord knows those who are His.(2 Tim 2:19) And each person is answerable to God for himself.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hester

    I am sorry, but you mis-understand scripture. And let me say this, no genuinely saved Christian who believes they are secure thinks salvation is NOT a serious matter. The fact that we have the Holy Spirit in us CONVICTING us is the driving force of us repenting, NOT our own works.

    If the Holy Spirit can not convict you of sin and bring you to repentance of your sin AFTER you have been TRULY BORN AGAIN, then Jesus Christ death on the cross was truly and utterly in vein. In other words, the Jesus, the Holy Spirit and everything means nothing. Jesus has no power in your life. Are you saying that Jesus Christ has no power in your life as a Christian?

    Think about what you say before you say you can loose what God GIVES you as a FREE gift not to be returned.

  • Hester,

    I really appreciate your thoughts. May I ask: What do you do and have done in the past to make sure you don’t lose your salvation?

    What did Jesus mean when He said:

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:27-30)

  • Redeemed

    Hester, do you believe that a believer is sealed unto redemption by the Holy Spirit upon conversion?

    Hester, have you borne or adopted children? Do you believe there is a reason why the Bible uses the term “born again”? We were born into sin but when we receive Christ as Savior we are “reborn” in the Spirit. Once a baby is birthed it cannot go back into the birth canal and neither can the “born again” Christian. At that point God gives spiritual birth to His child and calls that person His child. God does not disown His children even when they are disobedient.

    Hester, do you believe in God’s chastening? The Bible tells us that God chastens His children when they do wrong, He is not a permissive parent! And even in extreme cases, He calls a sinful child home prematurely. That does not mean they lose their salvation!

    God takes sin very seriously, but there is no way we can earn our salvation and there is no way we can earn the keeping of it. When one comes to Christ, one’s past sins are forgiven and since it is a fact that we don’t reach perfection in this life, we will sin and God has made provision for that. That is NOT a license to sin, but rather a covering over all ot. If God only forgave our past sin, none of us would make it into heaven!

  • Redeemed

    Hester, I might add that no TRUE Spirit-indwelt believer will ever turn against God and embrace a sinful lifestyle with no conviction or chastening. They may make some bad choices, and for a time relapse into sin, but a true believer will not love their sin any longer.

    Thomas’s question to you is very relevant. Where is that imaginary line that one has to cross in order to lose one’s salvation?

    I think the issue is not if one can lose one’s salvation, but was one truly saved in the first place. There are many false confessions due to incomplete and compromised “gospels” devoid of repentance (easy believism) and laying the proper foundation of God’s Word.

    i hope this helps to sort this out as it is a very important question as speaks to solid doctrine. Thanks and God bless you.

  • Hester

    Okay maybe I need to just clarify that I believe there is a difference between eternal security and eternal salvation. I also believe that once you have lost your salvation you can never ever get it back again. (Hebr 6:4 – 6). and when a person so turns from God, their latter state is worse than the first.(2Pt2:20)

    Debs of course I do not say that Jesus has no power in our lives after salvation! Wow, I even cringe just typing that!! How else will one grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ then? But, throughout Scripture there are warnings over and over, “he who overcomes”‘ “stand”, “watch yourself”, etc. I also do not believe that our Lord forces Himself upon anyone.

    Tom this is the SECURITY part of “Eternal Security” This is God’s work. He is reliable. He is sure. His intentions will not change. However, “Security” is not the issue. A person turning his back on, or leaving…consciously, purposely…is not the same thing as “being snatched/plucked.” How does one snatch/pluck himself? Snatching is something a person does to ANOTHER person/thing.

    Redeemed, you say “and for a time relapse into sin” what happens to that “believer” at that time when they have relapsed into sin and dies? Because the Bible says without repentance you perish. (2Pt3:9, Lk13:3,5, Rev2:5,22)

    Yes, there are those that were never saved to start off with (1 John 2:19), but there are those like in the parable the seed that was sown in rocky ground, they come up fast but then they die. For something to die, it had to live first right?

    When we consider salvation, we must keep certain things distinct. God’s provisions vs. our response. God provides Salvation. He accomplishes the whole thing. And once done, it is secure and eternal. Although, it is not fully complete yet. Not totally fulfilled…right now.

  • Hi Redeemed,

    You made some very good points.

    The problem is there are too many false preachers who never tell people what they should do to be saved. Salvation to most people is Jesus PLUS something else, for instance Jesus plus whatever church claims to be the one true church, Jesus plus the Sabbath, Jesus plus election, Jesus plus baptism, Jesus plus health, wealth and prosperity, Jesus plus perseverance, Jesus plus your own efforts to maintain your salvation etc. etc. etc. As soon as you add anything to Jesus in order to be saved or to maintain your salvation you are not pleasing God. (Hebrews 11:6)

    Do we encourage people to sin because we cannot lose our salvation? Absolutely NOT. On the contrary, I urge them to press on in sanctification and holiness so that they may receive a full reward (2 John 1:8; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15).

    Christians who believe and live in fear that they can lose their salvation have not entered Christ’s rest (have not yet abandoned their own works in an effort to maintain their salvation). They are like the Israelites who believed that God had delivered them OUT of their bondage in Egypt but was unable to bring them INTO the rest of the Promised Land.

    I choose to believe Jesus who promised:

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:27-30)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hester

    I understand what you are saying :) Now, tell me, when will you know if you have lost your salvation? At what point will you know you’ve lost it?

  • Thomas Lessing

    Hester,

    To prove to you how important it is not to isolate passages from its context, I would like to discuss with you a verse you mentioned- 2 Peter 2:20 which you use to substantiate conditional security. In the very first verse Peter refers to false prophets. Note that he says there will be false prophets among the people as there are among you (the saints). The “people” are obviously unbelievers. They can’t be anyone else because Peter distinguished between the people and the saints to whom he wrote the letter.

    False prophets are not lay little preachers who do not know the truth or are ignorant of what the Bible teaches. They know the truth but deliberately twist it to deceive the people (unbelievers in particular). In most cases they do so because they want their money. It is these false prophets and their followers (unbelievers) to whom Peter refers and not saints who had supposedly lost their salvation. Because these false prophets and their followers have rejected the truth, their ending will be worse than their beginning – when they started to preach their heresies. They will wax worse and worse. It would have been better for them to have never known the Gospel. Why? Because knowing the Gospel and then to reject it deserves a greater punishment

    Incidentally, all the other passages from Scripture to which you refer, do not in the very least prove that a saints can lose his salvation. You MUST read those passages in context with the rest of the chapters in which they appear.

  • Hester

    I am talking from a perspective of seeing it in the lives of believers and will give two examples. No. 1 spoke the language, walked the walk, was very involved in women ministry for many years and something happened in her life that she could not come to terms with. She literally turned her back on the Lord and I guess it was a process. Slowly, slowly she stopped reading the Word, stopped praying and slowly the curse words started creeping in and finally she decided that she is the master of her own life and her own destiny. I am not saying that that is the only sign, but, certainly someone who speaks such vile language is not a representative of the most Holy God.

    Now, can we say she was never saved to start off? How do we know? Does God only half save people? The heart is most wicked above all things and we need to guard our hearts.

    The second lady to this day is the most dear and sincere old lady that I know. She went into the missionary field (Congo) as a young women and worked and ministered and went through many hardships whilst doing that, to the point where she nearly died of malaria, TB etc. She came back to SA a couple of years ago and at an advanced age in her life became involved with a man, whom she fell in love with and married. He is studying to be a Rabbi and she went through the whole conversion to Judaism. No, not Christian Jew but orthodox Jew! I have had many tears over her as I cannot understand how when you have seen, experienced and lived the power of Jesus Christ, you can deny that He even exists!

    These are only two examples, but, I am sure if you look around you, you will see many such examples unfortunately.

    1 Peter 5:19,20 “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth,[he is not saying if anyone of you do not know the truth] and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins”.

    Looking unto Jesus.

  • Hester

    Debs, so in both instances, denying that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is how I will know that you have lost your salvation.

  • Redeemed

    Hester, I understand the examples you gave and I have known such people. One was even a pastor’s wife who turned into an alcoholic divorced a faithful husband. She gave every evidence of being saved. This has left many perplexed and wondering how this could be so.

    Hester, we cannot look to people to prove biblical texts. What the Bible says is either true or it is not. Of course we know it is the ultimate truth and the foundation of our faith.

    You did not answer my questions about being born again – would you kindly do so? If someone is truly born again, that process cannot be undone, can it any more than a natural child can re-enter the mother’s womb.

    In your examples you referred to both women as “believers”. Upon what do you base that upon? Did they hear the true and complete Gospel and respond to it or was it a “gospel” of works? We don’t have a complete picture. What EXACTLY was the origin of their belief?
    How do you know it was genuine?

    Thomas makes a good point. There are so many false professions based upon faulty preaching. There is the extreme of dragging people to the altar through brow beating to emotionalism to works-based salvation, to easy believism with no repentance. It runs the gamut. It is sad to think how many people are running around with unconverted hearts, trying to live the Christian life in the flesh and to please others rather than the Lord and serve Him out of a loving and grateful heart.

    Hester, you can’t interpret the Word of God and determine doctrine by looking at people. You can’t say for certain that these women were even believers because God knows the heart.

    These are both tragedies for sure. And like the example I cited, it leaves us scratching our heads. The woman I mentioned in retrospect liked the limelight and was very self-focused, things that went unnoticed. Her story isn’t over either. She is in God’s hands.

    I know people who don’t believe in eternal security of the believer. They don’t know how to rest in the Lord. They constantly strive and have no peace. Their service tends to be in the flesh our of obligation rather than love for the Lord.

    I thank you for this discussion and I hope that it is fruitful for all. It is certainly one that is needed.

  • Redeemed

    Hester, you said:

    Redeemed, you say “and for a time relapse into sin” what happens to that “believer” at that time when they have relapsed into sin and dies? Because the Bible says without repentance you perish. (2Pt3:9, Lk13:3,5, Rev2:5,22)

    Yes, there are those that were never saved to start off with (1 John 2:19), but there are those like in the parable the seed that was sown in rocky ground, they come up fast but then they die. For something to die, it had to live first right?

    When we consider salvation, we must keep certain things distinct. God’s provisions vs. our response. God provides Salvation. He accomplishes the whole thing. And once done, it is secure and eternal. ALTHOUGHT, IT IS NOT FULLY COMPLETE YET. NOT TOTALLY FULFILLED…RIGHT NOW. (EMPHASIS MINE)

    Dear sister, that last statement pinpoints the error of your thinking. You have confused the work of sanctification with salvation. Are you saying we are not saved until we are sanctified?
    I fear you may be a proponent of what is known as the “holiness” movement as with the teaching of Charles Finney. If one does the research on him and his teaching it goes along the lines of what you are saying and the groups who hold to the “holiness” doctrine.

  • Hester

    Tom, I am fully in agreement with the background of this book and agree. However, I am sorry but I cannot read anything other than what the Word says in 2 Peter 2:21 “for it would have been better for them NOT to have KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them”.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Hester,

    You seem to evaluate the Truth in God’s Word with the examples you encounter in everyday life. Your everyday experiences with people is your barometer to see whether the Word of God is true or not? That’s dangerous. Would you for instance say that Peter’s denial of Jesus Christ debunks Jesus’ words in John 10:27-30. OK, Peter repented of his sin and his relationship with God was restored. Who says that the two women to whom you refer are not going to repent of their sins and, like Peter, have their relationship with God restored, that is, of course, if both had truly been redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ. However, I sincerely doubt whether they had been saved. I say this on account of 2 Corinthians 7:10

    For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    The sorrow they encountered in their life and their attitude to it, made them turn from God. This is precisely what the above verse means. Many people expect God to straighten out everything in their lives when they ask Him to come into their heart – their finances, their health, their marriages, their hopes, their dreams, their circumstances etc. etc. etc. And then, when things don’t work out for them the way they expected God to do for them, they spit in his face and walk away. That’s not salvation. That’s making a pact with God that if you give something to Him He must give you the life you desire, including eternal life. That’s pure heresy. Indeed, this is the sorrows of the world that bring forth death (eternal damnation). “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. (Proverbs 14:12)

    Here Paul clearly says that no one who had been truly saved will ever regret their salvation and turn from God. Do you believe that?

    James 5:19-20 actually proves that a saint cannot lose his salvation. Why would God inspire you to pray for an erring Christian when it is impossible for them to be restored to a right relationship with God after they had lost their salvation? Isn’t that what Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches? So, either James 5:19-20 is an illusion or Hebrews 6:4-6 does not mean that a saint can lose his or her salvation. You can’t have it both ways, can you?

    Please don’t use peoples’ lousy experiences to evaluate the truth in God’s Word.

  • Hester

    Tom, herein lies your problem. You are still mixing eternal security with salvation. I, myself, would love to make a bold statement like you do that maybe they were not saved, but I can’t because only God knows a person’s heart. To say, who is to say they will not repent, well, again, only God knows whether it will be so or not, but then I believe again what the Bible says, “it is impossible to renew them”.

    Do you think we as mere mortals have a choice when we are called to Christ? When that day Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit called you, did you make a decision to follow Him, or do you believe that you had no choice in the matter.

    We are admonished and reminded how many times in the Bible “stand”, “he who overcomes”…. If there was no fear of us having to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, why all these warnings?

    I used those examples as I have not experienced it myself and cannot use myself as an example.

    But then lets look at Acts 4:32 “Now the multitude of those who BELIEVED were of one heart and one soul:…” and then we go to Acts 5:1-5. Does the Bible clarify that Ananias was not amongst the multitude who believed? Did Ananias willfully lied to the Holy Spirit?

    Point is each and every believer is responsible for their walk with Christ Jesus. You choose daily to read your Bible, to pray, to be fed by the Holy Spirit and for whatever reason you might decide to not do those things, you will be on a slippery slope faster than you can say Adam.
    I think to make a blanket statement, that they were not saved, is arrogant and trying to simplify things.

    I am standing off at this point Tom. Looking forward to some more brilliant articles. Thanks so much.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Two questions.

    1) What is the purpose of salvation?

    2) Is Jesus a liar? (John 10:27-30)?

    No Hester, my articles can’t be brilliant when there is no agreement.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hester

    >> Do you think we as mere mortals have a choice when we are called to Christ?

    Don’t even dare call use Calvinists Hester, you know fully we have free will, BUT until such time that you come to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, you are BORN AGAIN, a miracle happens, a miracle that can’t be undone! And you know what? Your name is written in the Lambs book of life…look here:

    Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

    Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

    Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

    Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

    Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    In Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 21:27, we find the references to the “Lamb’s book of life”, in which are also names of all those who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The Lamb who has been “slain from the creation of the world” has a book in which are written all those who have been redeemed by His sacrifice. They are the ones who will enter the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:10) and who will live forever in heaven with God. Since the book of life is that which records all who have eternal life through the Lamb, it’s clear that the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life are one and the same.

    When the Holy Spirit comes to abide in us, he stays there forever! He does not come and go and come and go each time you fall into some kind of sin.

    John 14:16 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever. “

    The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in (Ephesians 1:13-14) where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit,

    Ephesians 1:13-14 ”13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

    The envision of being sealed with the Spirit is one of ownership and possession. God has promised eternal life to all who are genuinely born again, and as a guarantee that He will keep His promise, He has sent the Holy Spirit to abide in the believer until the day of redemption. Kind of like making a down payment/deposit on a house or a car, God has provided all believers with a DEPOSIT on their future relationship with Him by sending the Holy Spirit to abide in them. The fact that all believers are sealed with the Spirit is also seen in (2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30).

    2 Corinthians 1:22 “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

    Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

    NOW LOOK AT THIS – THE OLD TESTAMENT vs NEW TESTAMENT…..

    Now, BEFORE Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven, before the NEW COVENANT, the Holy Spirit had a “come and go” relationship with people. The Holy Spirit indwelt King Saul, but then He departed from him:

    1 Samuel 16:14 ”But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”

    Here (1 Samuel 16:13) we read that the Holy Spirit came upon David. But after his adultery with Bathsheba, David feared that the Holy Spirit would be taken from him.

    Psalm 51:11 “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.”

    In (Exodus 31:2-5) we read that the the Holy Spirit filled Bezaleel to enable him to produce the items needed for the tabernacle, but this is not described as a permanent relationship.

    The Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth when she heard about Mary’s conception and her baby leaped in her womb.

    Luke 1:41 ”And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost“

    But all of this changed beginning on the day of Pentecost, (Acts 2) the Holy Spirit began permanently indwelling believers. Pentecost was the commissioning of the Christian church and the fulfillment of God’s promise to always be with us and never forsake us.

    Now, understand this, while the Holy Spirit will never leave a GENUINE believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” or “grieve the Holy Spirit”

    Quenching the Holy Spirit: 1 Thessalonians 5:19 “Quench not the Spirit.”

    Grieving the Holy Spirit: Ephesians 4:30 ”And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

    Sin ALWAYS has consequences in our relationship with Jesus. While our relationship with God is SECURE in Jesus Christ, UNCONFESSED SIN sin in our lives WILL hinder our relationship with God and it will quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins because God is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9). So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the reward and joy of His presence in our lives will feel far away, because sin drives a wedge between us and God and we are effectively distancing ourselves from Jesus.

    As Christians SEALED by the Holy Spirit you will still sin, but if you are genuinely born again, the Holy Spirit will CHASTISE you every time you sin and you will sooner than later repent of your sins. But there are people who PROFESS to be Christian and they do not have the Holy Spirit in then. These are people who can speak Jesus’ name, they go to church, even have big ministries teaching people the bible and they sound so intelligent, but they have not been REGENERATED, they know the truth, but because they refuse to give up their sinful ways, they refuse to pick up their cross and follow Jesus.

    Luke 14:27 ”Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.”

    They think they can have it both ways.

    2 Timothy 3:5 “They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power. So avoid people like these.”

    They have bad fruit, they follow doctrines of demons, and they mingle with evil people and very easily compromise the Word of God for the sake of ‘unity’.

    Satan always does twist scripture for his own advantage and tell people that at an alter call if they just pray the sinners pray they will be saved and never lose it, but God knows who is GENUINELY saved and who isn’t. We CAN’T fool Him. People CAN FOOL EACH OTHER into believing they are real Christians, when in fact they are not. And how do we tell if they are not, well by the things they do and say (the fruit of the spirit) – the words the speak/preach. But even then, sometimes we meet some ‘great pretenders’ some brilliant con-artists and it takes a long time to figure them out.

    source: —> taken from my article here: The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

    ——–

    Now, Heather is your name written in the Lambs book of life? :) If it is, it can not be blotted out! Do you see that! And if you argue with that scripture then… I donno.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> herein lies your problem, You are still mixing eternal security with salvation.

    Errr… I have no words for that… lol

    >> I, myself, would love to make a bold statement like you do that maybe they were not saved, but I can’t because only God knows a person’s heart.

    We are not making bold statements about anyone, only God knows who is saved and who is not Heather, only YOU KNOW YOUR own heart. My goodness.

    >> We are admonished and reminded how many times in the Bible “stand”, “he who overcomes”…. If there was no fear of us having to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, why all these warnings?

    Do you not understand that without the Holy Spirit you are nothing, it is He who makes you FEAR, it is He who makes you STAND, it is He who makes you TREMBLE, it is He who makes you REPENT, it is He who makes you GROW, it is He that FILLS YOU, it is He that CHASTISES YOU and BRINGS YOU BACK to Jesus when you go astray, it is not you that does these things, we don’t have the strength, it is not your work. We are willing, we give ourselves, we say yes, we change our ways, we change our mind, and He does the work. Our flesh is weak, we do not do the work (per se). If we did the work, then we have no need for the Holy Spirit.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hester

    >> so in both instances, denying that Jesus Christ is Lord.

    So let’s say you get tangled up in some false teaching and follow a doctrine that teaches that Jesus did not come in the flesh. That is denying Jesus Christ. You have now sinned terribly. What now? This can happen very easily. So now according to you are unsaved.

    Peter denounced Jesus THREE times. Did he lose his salvation?

      Matthew 26:33-35 33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. 34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

      Matthew 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

  • Hester wrote:

    Tom, I am fully in agreement with the background of this book and agree. However, I am sorry but I cannot read anything other than what the Word says in 2 Peter 2:21 “for it would have been better for them NOT to have KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them”.

    Those who know the way of righteousness are not necessarily saved. You may know the way and still not be ON the way. 1 Corinthians 1:18 proves that many know what God had done on the cross of Calvary but they reject it.

    Salvation is to KNOW God and his Son.

    And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

  • Thomas Lessing

    Debs wrote:

    The envision of being sealed with the Spirit is one of ownership and possession. God has promised eternal life to all who are genuinely born again, and as a guarantee that He will keep His promise, He has sent the Holy Spirit to abide in the believer until the day of redemption. Kind of like making a down payment/deposit on a house or a car, God has provided all believers with a DEPOSIT on their future relationship with Him by sending the Holy Spirit to abide in them. The fact that all believers are sealed with the Spirit is also seen in (2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30).

    Beautifully said! Think of it, If mortal man is bound to honour the down payment on a house or car as a surety or security that the final payment is imminent, how much more is the Creator of all things who gave Himself (his Holy Spirit) as a surety or security that the final consummation of our salvation is imminent, not bound by his own promises? That’s precisely why Paul wrote:

    And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    That’s precisely why Paul wrote:

    >> And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

    Now if the apostle Paul was SO SURE why can’t Hester be sure…

    Eh, Hestertjie :)

  • Hester

    :) Debs, just love you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hester

    (HUGS)

  • Jean

    Calvinists do not deny free will. (someone made that comment above). I don’t know where anyone ever got that idea except perhaps via Dave Hunt. To correct two common misconceptions:

    1) If God is completely sovereign, we’re just robots.
    It is common to hear opponents of God’s sovereignty in salvation say that lack of free will produces robots or puppets. The underlying assumption in such thinking is that there are two basic choices: human freedom or God’s intervention. But, that’s a false assumption. The Bible is quite plain that all of mankind falls into one of two camps: sons of God or sons of the devil. In other words, if God does not pull your strings, you are not simply “morally neutral,” implementing your own plans and designs for your life. If God is not in charge of your life, then Satan is. Someone’s pulling your strings, either way.
    When you read the language of Scripture you see the consistent contrast between those Jesus chose and those who constitute “the world,” whom Jesus would not pray for (John 17:9). Or, Jesus speaks of “the believing,” who have everlasting life, versus the unbelieving, who are “condemned already” (John 3:16-18). You find Paul’s contrasts between the children of the free and the children of bondage (Gal. 4:30-31). In Col. 1:12-13, Paul contrasts the “saints in light” who were delivered from “the power of darkness.” And, in fact, those are the very words Jesus used to describe Paul’s predestined ministry, as a “chosen vessel.”
    “And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” (Acts 26:14-18)
    And, of course, Jesus’ condemnation of the Pharisees was not that they were simply following their God-given free will as they rejected Him. He said that they were incapable of understanding His words because they were not His sheep and they were indeed “of your father the devil.” There is no such thing as moral neutrality; there is only light or dark, good or evil, free or bond, God’s or Satan’s.
    That contrast is consistent. God’s interference in the lives of some people is not an assault against their freedom. It is deliverance from a darkness that they themselves do not even recognize. Satan has so blinded the eyes of sinful men that they are incapable of recognizing the things of God. Only when God intrudes on a person’s heart/mind/soul/will can that person recognize both their sinfulness and the grace that delivered them. Everyone’s a puppet. It’s just a question of who’s pulling your strings.

    2) Love that is not freely given (with the free option to be withheld) is not genuine love or devotion.
    Given that the above assessment of man’s natural state is true; and if it is Biblically accurate that all mankind is “dead in trespasses in sins” (Eph. 2:1), then man has no natural ability to love God.
    “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom. 8:7-8)
    The notion of love freely chosen and freely given as an act of the libertarian, unencumbered free will is a nice sounding idea — it’s just an impossibility. Our natural wills are only free to do evil. While we may choose from myriad wicked options, we are utterly incapable of choosing that which is right and good; and that would especially include unfeigned love toward God. Where our love for God is concerned, the Bible is clear:
    “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)
    We are incapable of generating positive love toward God unless He first moves on our hearts, removes that stone of indifference and rebellion, and revives us to “newness of life,” forming the capability to love God within us. God must first grant us the ability to do what we simply cannot. And the only people to whom He grants such ability are those whom He has chosen as recipients of His gracious love. We love Him in reaction to His love.
    The argument that the only true love is love generated by free will ignores man’s incapability and places the responsibility to love on the very creatures that are described as dead in their own sinfulness, always at enmity with God, incapable of pleasing Him, and defiantly in love with their own sinful flesh. If we’re going to look at this matter Biblically, the only real love that God will accept is that love which He Himself generates. That is the only love pure and good enough to be offered a truly Holy God. Human emotional love is of no value to a God who defines love according to His own character and nature. Thus, He must generate and sustain any love worthy of Himself.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jean

    >> Calvinists do not deny free will.

    ROTFL You kidding right? Are you sure you understand the doctrine of Calvinism?

  • Thomas Lessing

    John Jean wrote:

    When you read the language of Scripture you see the consistent contrast between those Jesus chose and those who constitute “the world,” whom Jesus would not pray for (John 17:9).

    Calvinists have an uncanny way to change the meaning of “world” as they like. When they quote John 3:16 “world” constitutes only the world of the elect but when they quote John 17:9 it constitutes the world of the non-elect. Jesus said He did not pray for the world because He could not pray his High Priestly prayer for unbelievers. “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” was a prayer for unbelievers. John 17:9 does not mean that He never prayed for unbelievers.

    I am prepared to debate you on one condition – that you first read Calvin’s “Institutes of the Christian Religion” and Martin LUther’s “Bondage of the Will.”

    The Westminster Confession states:

    “They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the degree of election (Westminster Confession of Faith (London: n.p., 1643), XVll:i,ii.)

    Arthur Pink wrote,

    “Those who speak of man’s `free will,’ and insist upon his inherent power to either accept or reject the Saviour, do but voice their ignorance of the real condition of Adam’s fallen children.” (Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Baker Book House, 2nd prtg. 1984),foreword to first edition, unnumbered first page.)

    I can quote to you many other Calvinists who deny that man has a free-will.

  • Sharon

    Then give us One Example in the Bible where a truly saved person lost their salvation. There are NONE. See if God does the saving and He does the keeping us saved then someone would be calling God Almighty a liar when His word says the following:

    2Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    No one, not you, not me can get out of the grip of Jehovah God. You believe you can lose your Salvation. Then what sin makes you lost again? You might lose it and not know it.

    1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    I do not understand why people try to add something to their salvation or the loss there of. I believe it is because of pride and arrogance. Those who believe you can lose your salvation will: 1. Admit that Salvation is by grace through faith. 2. But when it comes to eternal security their pride says, God saved me but I am keeping myself saved through good works.

    The Oscar Myer Company here in the USA calls one of their “cold-cut meats Bologna. I call being saved then lost Balony. Read God’s Word…He does the saving and He does the keeping.

    Hester wrote:

    Sorry I am of the opinion that one can lose your salvation. Just as we are called to Christ and we make the decision to follow Him, (Deut.30:19) so we allow the world to lure us to walk away from the Lord. The Word of God says clearly Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. See Ezekiel 18:24.

    In other words, the man starts out “saved.” He’s been justified. Is in a “position as” righteous. He turns back, away from that “state” of being saved. Not merely just “committing sinful acts.” But as he turns back, he EMBRACES sin as his “life.” He lives it, gives his whole attention to it. This act of treason results in his righteousness not being remembered. He is not “recorded” [in the Book of Life.] His righteousness will not be mentioned…as Jesus said, “I will deny him before My Father.”(Mat 10:33) And Paul writes, “If we endure, We shall also reign with Him, if we deny Him He also will deny us.”(2 Tim 2:12) His outcome, “He shall die…perish.”

    Also, And to repeat this much also: God’s end of the bargain is secure and sure. (Rom 8:31-39) But just as we have the option to “choose life” (Deut 30:19); when we have been, thus, ‘righteous’, we can also deviate from that righteousness and choose evil. (Eze 33:13,18) Notice the wording…

    “When I say to the righteous that he shall live life, but he TRUSTS IN HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND COMMITS INIQUITY, none of all his righteousness shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has done, he shall die.” (Eze 33:13)

    He has been declared righteous (Rom 5:19) but then “withdraws” with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Heb 3:12) because he has been “hardened through the deceitfulness of sin” (vs 13)

    As a friend of mine says as long as we are still on this earth, we still have free will going. And as God was “not well pleased” with most of Israel, who had experienced His salvation through Christ (1 Cor 10:4-5) because they were in unbelief (Heb 3:19), we are exhorted to “fear lest [we] seem to have come short of [His rest].” (Heb 4:1) Anyone who reads the writings of Paul comes away with this sober realization that he was always striving before God. The matter of salvation was a serious matter to him. He did not figure, “Well, I’m saved. It’s all settled now…la dee dah!” No! “Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but…I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”(Phil 3:13-14)

    But, again, I am glad that the Lord knows those who are His.(2 Tim 2:19) And each person is answerable to God for himself.

  • Sharon

    God’s Sovereignty is not threatened by Free Will. He’s a Big God. Why did God create man? To fellowship with us. Our purpose in this life is to 1. Know God, 2.To make Him known. 3. To Glorify God. That doesn’t sound like mindless Robots to me.

    Calvinism has caused more harm to the True Church of Jesus Christ than any other False Teaching I know of. The very worst part is that Jesus only died for the elect. Where is the verse with those exact words found? Jesus died for all. It is not that His power was diminished by people going to hell. It is those people will be “without excuse” on judgment day. John Calvin was an unrepentant murderer. His “theology” came from Augustine a Catholic that prayed to Mary for Salvation. So we know where Augustine resides now and it is hot there! Calvin is possibly there too. His professions of faith/conversion have nothing in them about repentance and receiving Jesus Christ as Savior. His nick-name was the Pope of Geneva. He supposedly hated the Catholic religion but he acted just like their Pope.

    Jean wrote:

    Calvinists do not deny free will. (someone made that comment above). I don’t know where anyone ever got that idea except perhaps via Dave Hunt. To correct two common misconceptions:

    1) If God is completely sovereign, we’re just robots.
    It is common to hear opponents of God’s sovereignty in salvation say that lack of free will produces robots or puppets. The underlying assumption in such thinking is that there are two basic choices: human freedom or God’s intervention. But, that’s a false assumption. The Bible is quite plain that all of mankind falls into one of two camps: sons of God or sons of the devil. In other words, if God does not pull your strings, you are not simply “morally neutral,” implementing your own plans and designs for your life. If God is not in charge of your life, then Satan is. Someone’s pulling your strings, either way.
    When you read the language of Scripture you see the consistent contrast between those Jesus chose and those who constitute “the world,” whom Jesus would not pray for (John 17:9). Or, Jesus speaks of “the believing,” who have everlasting life, versus the unbelieving, who are “condemned already” (John 3:16-18). You find Paul’s contrasts between the children of the free and the children of bondage (Gal. 4:30-31). In Col. 1:12-13, Paul contrasts the “saints in light” who were delivered from “the power of darkness.” And, in fact, those are the very words Jesus used to describe Paul’s predestined ministry, as a “chosen vessel.”
    “And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” (Acts 26:14-18)
    And, of course, Jesus’ condemnation of the Pharisees was not that they were simply following their God-given free will as they rejected Him. He said that they were incapable of understanding His words because they were not His sheep and they were indeed “of your father the devil.” There is no such thing as moral neutrality; there is only light or dark, good or evil, free or bond, God’s or Satan’s.
    That contrast is consistent. God’s interference in the lives of some people is not an assault against their freedom. It is deliverance from a darkness that they themselves do not even recognize. Satan has so blinded the eyes of sinful men that they are incapable of recognizing the things of God. Only when God intrudes on a person’s heart/mind/soul/will can that person recognize both their sinfulness and the grace that delivered them. Everyone’s a puppet. It’s just a question of who’s pulling your strings.

    2) Love that is not freely given (with the free option to be withheld) is not genuine love or devotion.
    Given that the above assessment of man’s natural state is true; and if it is Biblically accurate that all mankind is “dead in trespasses in sins” (Eph. 2:1), then man has no natural ability to love God.
    “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom. 8:7-8)
    The notion of love freely chosen and freely given as an act of the libertarian, unencumbered free will is a nice sounding idea — it’s just an impossibility. Our natural wills are only free to do evil. While we may choose from myriad wicked options, we are utterly incapable of choosing that which is right and good; and that would especially include unfeigned love toward God. Where our love for God is concerned, the Bible is clear:
    “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)
    We are incapable of generating positive love toward God unless He first moves on our hearts, removes that stone of indifference and rebellion, and revives us to “newness of life,” forming the capability to love God within us. God must first grant us the ability to do what we simply cannot. And the only people to whom He grants such ability are those whom He has chosen as recipients of His gracious love. We love Him in reaction to His love.
    The argument that the only true love is love generated by free will ignores man’s incapability and places the responsibility to love on the very creatures that are described as dead in their own sinfulness, always at enmity with God, incapable of pleasing Him, and defiantly in love with their own sinful flesh. If we’re going to look at this matter Biblically, the only real love that God will accept is that love which He Himself generates. That is the only love pure and good enough to be offered a truly Holy God. Human emotional love is of no value to a God who defines love according to His own character and nature. Thus, He must generate and sustain any love worthy of Himself.

  • [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Carolyn wrote:

    Now, some might assume this means one can never depart from God. But this is not true. Many passages indicate true Christians can be lost.

    Where are your many passages, Carolyn? You mention one – John 15. But John 15 not even remotely says or suggests that a saint can lose his salvation.

    John 15:1-7.

    Jesus Christ sends his followers out into the world, first and foremost to bear much fruit and also that their fruit may remain (John 15: 16). The slightest defection or deflection from a childlike or simple faith in Jesus Christ breeds fruitlessness, worthlessness, and deserves to be devoured by fire – not the lake of fire but the consuming fire of God (Hebrews 12: 29). There is no evidence whatsoever that John 15:6 is a reference to the burning lake of fire. God’s anger is often likened to the burning of fire (Isaiah 9: 18, 19; 10: 17; Hebrews 12:28-29).

    What constitutes a deflection or defection from a childlike faith in Jesus Christ? Anything or anyone to which a believer turns his eye for assistance, either for his salvation or the perpetuation and final consummation of his salvation other than Jesus Christ, causes a saint to defect or deflect from the faith (fall away). The Holy Spirit is extremely sensitive to a saints defection or deflection (deviation) from the faith and cannot and will not bring forth his fruit in them when they resort to the flesh. The anti-OSAS camp is guilty of the very same sin Israel committed. They believed and experienced God’s redemption OUT of Egypt but did not believe that He alone was able to bring them INTO the Promised Land.

    John 15 Verse 3 confirms that believers are already clean and they need to abide in Him in order to bear much fruit. We find the very same principle in John 13:10: “Jesus said to him, Anyone who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is clean all over. And you [My disciples] are clean, but not all of you.” If the feet are not washed (sins are not confessed and forgiven) the saint cannot be a useful instrument in Christ’s service. “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltiness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.” (Mark 9:49-50). “Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, (worthless) but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.” (Matthew 5:13).

    The fire spoken of here cannot be the future punishment in the Lake of Fire, simply because it is associated with a sacrifice on the altar unto God. “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.” (1 Peter 4:1). Suffering in the flesh which is sometimes likened to going through fire (1 Peter 1:7), teaches the saint to die to the world and live for Christ. It has a purifying effect on the saint so that he may be fruitful in his service to the Lord.

    It is in this light that we should understand John 15:1-6. It does not teach that a saint can lose his salvation. It teaches that the saint must abide in Him (in his death and resurrection) in order to bear much fruit. The saint who does not abide in him (reckons himself dead to sin and alive to God) cannot bear fruit. This is when the saint’s fruitlessness is dealt with through the fires of persecution and suffering.

    What does it mean to abide in Him? “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” (1 John 3:6). How does this tie in with 1 John 1:8: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Dare we say that we do not sin and thereby dare say that we continuously abide in Him? Sinning and abiding in Him are incompatible two opposites. So, what’s the solution? There is only one solution and that is to continuously reckon that we have been buried with Him in his death and also that we’ve been raised with Him unto a new life for God. This alone produces good fruit and enables us to abide in Him. It simply means to abide in his death and in his resurrection life.

    But why does verse 6 say: “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6). Take careful note the Holy Spirit does not say “they shall be gathered and thrown in the fire” which, if that were so, it would mean that they are gathered and thrown in the fire sometime at a future date. “And men gather them” is not in the original and should simply read “are gathered.” It says they are gathered and thrown in the fire (present tense) which indicates that the fire must be something else than the Lake of Fire. To understand this more clearly we must turn to 1 Corinthians 3:

    For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

    It is clear that the fire here is not the Lake of Fire but the purging fire of God’s holiness.

    You keep on saying that it is faith that saves us and faith that keeps us saved. Correct! However, to believe that one can lose your salvation is NOT faith but unbelief, unbelief in what Jesus says in John 10:

    I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)

    It is very dangerous to teach others that they can lose their salvation. It teaches them to turn their eyes away from Jesus and fix them on themselves for the maintenance of their salvation. Years ago, on a well-known Bible forum, a young man’s faith in Jesus was nearly destroyed when they told him that he can lose his salvation. By the grace of God and some real hard debating, he was convinced that he cannot lose his salvation.

    We should be acutely aware of Peter’s warning in 2 Peter 3:

    as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Pe 3:16)

    If the Scriptures you allege exist, deny OSAS then you should be able to back it up by harmonizing it with Jesus’ words in John 10:28-30. If your view does not harmonize with it, it is best to rather remain silent until you have made sure that what you believe is the truth.

    Would you say that Jesus told a little white lie in John 10:28-30?

  • Carolyn

    [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Thomas, in reply to your first comment and questions. I will reply to the second one later

    Carolyn wrote:

    My view agrees with this excerpt which is to say that we can fall into unbelief at any point along our walk of faith. I may differ from some of the thinking on this site in that regard, but that is my present stance and what I see in the Scriptures. I don’t believe that we can ever be lost because of stupid choices or mistakes in judgement, or even falling temporarily into sin but I do believe that if we persist in wilful sins, or unbelief once we have been convicted by the Spirit, we CAN fall away, become apostate and end up denying the Lord who bought us. You may say that we were never saved to begin with, but I say we were.

    May I ask you a few questions?

    1) What is the difference between continuous sins and temporary sins? Don’t you think both have the same devastating effect – separation from God (Isaiah 59:1-2)? If both have the same effect, then we dare not make a distinction between the two.

    Unless the Scripture does…
    Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

    2) Did Eve sin wilfully or was she beguiled (enticed) to sin?

    By wilful, I mean people who become: apostate, haters of the gospel, despisers of those who love God, who no longer are sanctified by the blood of the covenant, who have outright rejected truth and light and thereby have insulted the Spirit of grace.

    Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    3) Would you say Solomon is in heaven? If so, why? (Remember, his sins were exceedingly wilful).

    Honestly, Thomas, I don’t know. Some say that it sounded like he repented in Eccelsiastes as an old man. Perhaps. I think it sounds more like the recognition of futility. All is futile. He spent his life in the pursuit of worldly knowledge and self interest and regretted that the only thing worthwhile, in light of the shortness of life, was the knowledge of God. Is that repentance? While I’m not the judge of his heart, I can safely say that there is the threat of losing faith/confidence in the truth/gospel and therefore the need to take warning:

    Hebrews 10:32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

    4) What did Jesus mean when He said: “But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” (Luke 22:32). Bear in mind that He did not say “that thy lose not thy faith” or “depart from the faith” but “that thy faith FAIL not.”

    I will answer that with the question, what did Paul mean by “those who shrink back and are destroyed”? That sounds final to me.

    Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

    “In just a little while,
    he who is coming will come
    and will not delay.”
    38 And,

    “But my righteous one will live by faith.
    And I take no pleasure
    in the one who shrinks back.”
    39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

    You can say that Paul had confidence that they would remain faithful and be saved, but at the same time, he had just spent all the previous verses warning them and pleading with them to heed the possibility of turning away, of becoming an enemy of God and his people after they had been enlightened. There are today, many who have become enemies of Christ after they have “received” a knowledge of the truth. They have become angry, openly and vehemently confessed their outright rejection of truth, complete with foot stomping and cursing and have refused to repent. Peter’s cursing was done in a moment of fear and he repented.

    5) Would you say that Jesus is praying the same prayer for us than the one He prayed for Peter? If so, why would his prayer fail to keep us on the strait and narrow when it was so successful in Peter’s behalf?

    Peter’s cursing was done in a moment of fear and he repented. The Lord knows our heart and he knew ahead of time that Peter would not harden his heart (as in the day of rebellion) and that he would be forgiven. It is the will of God that we endure. But he has not taken away our free will. What would be the purpose of the testing of our faith then?

    6) What did Paul mean when he said: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Php 1:6. Paul was confident in the Lord; why aren’t you?

    Thomas, I am perfectly confident in regard to God’s willingness to save, sanctify, discipline and bring me into his eternal kingdom. However, I am respectful of his conditions, which he lays out in more than one place:

    Colossians 1:22-24
    22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven,and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    7) How would you interpret 2 Corinthians 7:10: “For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.” (2 Co 7:10). Would you ever regret your salvation and resort to unbelief and apostasy? If not, why do you believe some other children of God would want to do such a silly thing?

    Because I have seen examples of this very thing. Simple as that. If you haven’t witnessed this phenomenon of apostasy and unbelief, of those who have been Christians and have abandoned the faith, I am surprised. In fact, why then do we spend time warning people to keep in the Word and flee false teaching? Now…this IS sounding like Calvinism, as we try to put the responsibility for our remaining faithful squarely on the shoulders of God from start to finish. I see a disconnect from reality. He is faithful to those who will persevere in their faith. To those who persist in unbelief as they did in the rebellion (that is those who began to follow Him out of Egypt), and resist his methods of discipline and his long term plans/purposes, he has no obligation to bring them to his eternal kingdom. Nor do they want to be there.

  • Carolyn

    [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Thomas, here is my reply to your second comment. I have found several passages of Scripture that I believe answer these questions (in context):

    Can we again be entangled in the world?
    2 Peter 2:18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
    Can those who have known the way of righteousness turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them?
    21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[i] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

    Can we sin and still be considered a son of God?
    1 John 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
    29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

    Does disobedience lead to death? Are those who disobey considered servants of God?
    Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Can a child of God keep on sinning?
    1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    What is the deception here?
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    Are those that have become entangled and overcome still righteous?
    2 Peter 2:
    20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    That “servant” of the Lord (Christian) will cut him asunder and appoint him his place with the unbelievers.
    Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
    46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

    Some shall depart from the faith. How could you depart if you weren’t in the faith?
    1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Once again…God is not mocked…a servant of sin is not appointed to everlasting life
    John 8:34
    34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    Rather, he will reap corruption(death)
    Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

    We can be selective and choose only the Scriptures that suite our OSAS doctrine or we can see the other side of the coin. There are both sides…yes, we would not even desire the Light and Truth if we were not being drawn by the Holy Spirit to conviction of sin and repentance unto salvation.

    And yes, none will be lost that come to Christ on his terms. But on the flip side of the coin, if we rebel and turn back to the weak and miserable elements of unbelief, to the sins of the flesh and the evil practices the world, we will be bringing ourselves back under the curse of the law and the damnation of the flesh.

  • Carolyn

    [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Thomas, you said: “It is very dangerous to teach others that they can lose their salvation. It teaches them to turn their eyes away from Jesus and fix them on themselves for the maintenance of their salvation. Years ago, on a well-known Bible forum, a young man’s faith in Jesus was nearly destroyed when they told him that he can lose his salvation. By the grace of God and some real hard debating, he was convinced that he cannot lose his salvation.”

    In real life, am surrounded by people who are not Christians. I know the difference between obstinate unbelief and fear of damnation. When someone still fears God and recognizes their sinful state, they are not beyond forgiveness. It is when they harden their hearts in unbelief to the point that they can mock and taunt God and there’s no remorse, no reproof in their souls. They are reprobate in their thinking.

    If someone still has a fear of God, still desires is willing to discuss faith, and feels even some remorse for his unbelief and rebellion, there is hope. We don’t make those judgements of when a person is completely reprobate. God does. Wherever there is Light, there is hope.

    Esau was someone who seemed to have no interest in believing God. Absence of Light.
    Eli’s sons had no regard or respect for God’s interests…only their own…Absence of Light.
    Revellers in Pride parades seem to be reprobate. Absence of Light.
    False teachers (a dime a dozen these days) seemingly have no conscience about stealing or lying. Absence of Light.
    Deceivers, like unreasoning animals…Absence of Light.

    Someone who CAN and does have conviction of sin…Presence of Light.

    The story you told of the young man who was told he could lose his salvation is a bit vague. We have all felt a bit lost and forlorn at times but when we call on the Lord, he answers. If we sin, he convicts. If we repent, he forgives. Light is present. It is more dangerous, as I see from Scripture, to tell someone that they can never lose their salvation if they fall back into sin . That is more dangerous because it breeds smugness and laziness and carnality, leading to further deceitfulness of sin and hardness of heart.

  • [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Carolyn wrote

    In real life, am surrounded by people who are not Christians. I know the difference between obstinate unbelief and fear of damnation. When someone still fears God and recognizes their sinful state, they are not beyond forgiveness. It is when they harden their hearts in unbelief to the point that they can mock and taunt God and there’s no remorse, no reproof in their souls. They are reprobate in their thinking.

    Are we talking about believers or unbelievers? Unbelievers cannot lose their salvation. So let’s stick to the subject.

    The story you told of the young man who was told he could lose his salvation is a bit vague. We have all felt a bit lost and forlorn at times but when we call on the Lord, he answers. If we sin, he convicts. If we repent, he forgives. Light is present. It is more dangerous, as I see from Scripture, to tell someone that they can never lose their salvation if they fall back into sin . That is more dangerous because it breeds smugness and laziness and carnality, leading to further deceitfulness of sin and hardness of heart.

    If it were possible for a saint to lose his salvation he will know when it happens because he supposedly decides to stop believing and turn his back on God. That’s what the anti-OSAS camp say, don’t they? The young man I mentioned did not only feel lost and dejected. He actually believed that he had LOST his salvation because he had been TOLD that he lost it. What’s so vague about that?

    Was it someone who told you that you can lose your salvation that caused you to fall into smugness, laziness or carnality or have you never fallen into the sins of smugness, laziness and carnality? I can assure you that no one needs to tell you that you can NOT lose your salvation to incite you to backslide into smugness, laziness and carnality. In fact, to believe that you can lose your salvation IS carnality. Paul wrote:

    Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Gal 3:3)

  • [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Carolyn

    2 Peter 2:18-21

    Are you saying that false teachers who corrupt, twist the Scriptures, deceive and lead astray the saints are saved? Do you actually know what the difference is between genuine Christianity and a false one? Peter is NOT talking about real Christians. He is referring to heretics who infiltrate the church and cause havoc among especially young Christians who are not yet stable in their faith. So please, before we continue our discussion, we must make certain whether false teachers and heretic are saved or not. If they are, I will be the first one to admit that a saint can lose his salvation. This passage definitely does NOT prove that saints can lose their salvation.

    1 John 2:28-29

    You asked: “Can we sin and still be considered a son of God?” What kind of a question is that? It is when we say we do not sin that we are considered not to be his sons. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8) . . . If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10).

    Being ashamed does not imply loss of salvation. Disapproval at the judgement seat of Christ involves the loss of rewards and not the loss of salvation. Those whose works are going to be burnt at the Bema Judgement seat are going to be put to shame. The are not going to lose their salvation.

    Romans 6:16-18 “Does disobedience lead to death? Are those who disobey considered servants of God?”

    Are you ALWAYS obedient to God? One single act of disobedience deserves death, not so? Paul describes the negative to emphasize the positive. He does not say they are disobedient and therefore have lost their salvation. In fact he praises and thanks God because they have become slaves to righteousness. “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” He is actually them “You were lost when you were slaves to sin but now you are saved and have become slaves to righteousness.” Romans 6:16-18 does not in the very least prove that a saint can lose his salvation. Do you really think Paul would have taught something contrary to Jesus Christ (John 10:28-30).

    I will address the rest of your Scripture passages that allegedly teach the loss of salvation later. However, the above already proves to me that you are misreading the meaning of certain passages.

  • Carolyn

    [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    That verse “Are you so foolish Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” in context, is talking about the law…we are talking about two different things. Here it is in context:
    Galatians 3:2 “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[h] 4 Have you experienced[i] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    Where is our faith? In keeping the law?(by the flesh) or in Christ?(by the Spirit)

    If you start out by faith in Christ, you can’t switch over to trying to obey the Jewish laws and customs, or the ten commandments.

    I am not advocating “trying” to be righteous by following rules or principles. I’m saying that if we choose to walk by faith, we must remain in that faith. If we get angry and rebellious toward God, that is not remaining in the faith.

    If we choose our own way(rebellion) somewhere before the finish line, then we forfeit the promised land(eternal life). God was angry with that generation and he swore in his anger that they would never enter his rest…and they didn’t.

    Even after they had seen all his miracles and he had demonstrated his love and power to them on many occasions. They refused him. They rejected his plan. They grumbled against him. They despised him. They angered him over and over and over. He rejected them. Period.

    Hebrews 3:7-9
    New International Version (NIV)
    Warning Against Unbelief

    Hebrews 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:
    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    8 do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the wilderness,
    9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
    though for forty years they saw what I did.

    You said, “He actually believed that he had LOST his salvation because he had been TOLD that he lost it. What’s so vague about that?”

    We are told many things by false teachers. But if we go to God we get the truth. He obviously came to the light. He still wanted truth. His eyes were opened by God. He was feeling the fear of God because he was afraid that he had lost his salvation.

    My point in talking about unbelievers is that they have NO FEAR of God. This person had a fear of God. That, we are told, is the beginning of wisdom.

    Fearing that you can lose your salvation is the opposite of carnality and smugness. It pushes you to find out what the will of the Lord is. It causes you to get into the Word and discover for yourself the truth so that you can’t be lied to anymore. It brings you to the assurance of your salvation rather than depending on Sunday morning sermons to do the work for you, to keep you in the fold. Fear is a motivator, as long as you don’t stay there. There is a reason for fear and once it has done its work, you triumph over fear…by faith.
    Hebrews 3:13
    But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

    What did you think of my other comments…including the Scripture references you asked me for? I spent a lot of time looking them up and look forward to your “respectful” rebuttal or better yet…you may even agree with me!

  • [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Carolyn

    I have discussed most of the verses you mentioned in my series called “Eternal Security: NOSAS versus OSAS Part 1,2, 3, 4 and 5” The litmus test is: Do all these verses you allege teach loss of salvation harmonize with Jesus’ words in John 10:28-30. I notice that you haven’t even once referred to this passage. Why?

  • Carolyn

    [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    2 Peter 2: 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    ok. lets take one verse at a time. “after they have escaped”. how do you read that? That would include teachers that at one time believed the simple gospel…like Billy Graham and then he entangled himself in the pollutions of Freemasonry and voila! Now he has a mixture of universalism. He is bringing the way of God into disrepute! I could go on but it’s all been said before….I’m sure you know the story….

  • [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Carolyn

    “That verse “Are you so foolish Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” in context, is talking about the law…we are talking about two different things. Here it is in context:
    Galatians 3:2 “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[h] 4 Have you experienced[i] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    Trying to do things in and through the flesh (especially in regard to the maintenance of your salvation) IS the law of the flesh.

    For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (Rom 7:18-23)

  • Carolyn

    [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Your comment on 1 John 2:28-29
    My point in asking if you can sin and still be a son of God? Let me re-phrase that…Can you live a life characterized by sin and still be considered a son of God?

    Answer: No

    Question: Why?

    Answer: 1 John 3:6
    No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

    So my point is that if you once confessed Christ as Saviour and you had begun to follow him and then you turned away, fell away, drifted away, lost connection with the head, departed from the faith, lost confidence, lost faith, etc…what does that mean to you? To me it means that if a person continues on this path of sin, they are no longer continuing in faith, they are back on the broad road

    ….because the one who lives by faith cannot continue to sin.

    Not meaning falling into temporary sin…which we are prone to, like saying a bad work, telling a lie, not paying your speeding ticket on time, on purpose…but meaning wilful, premeditated, rebellious, obstinate, stiff-necked, unrepentant, habitual sin…taking up Mariology, turning to Islam, taking drugs/alcohol to escape reality….to name a few game changers….it happens….

  • Carolyn

    [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Carolyn

    “That verse “Are you so foolish Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” in context, is talking about the law…we are talking about two different things. Here it is in context:
    Galatians 3:2 “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[h] 4 Have you experienced[i] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    Trying to do things in and through the flesh (especially in regard to the maintenance of your salvation) IS the law of the flesh.

    Choosing to deny the misdeeds of the flesh, “putting off the old man” is not trying to obey the law. It’s being transformed by the renewing of your mind. It’s getting to know what the will of the Lord is and obeying him. It’s walking in the Light, not being conformed to the world, adding knowledge to our faith, etc. There’s freedom in obedience versus guilt in not obeying the letter of the law. We don’t try and live up to something by the flesh, we obey by the power of the Spirit. He reveals, we are free to obey.

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Carolyn

    I have discussed most of the verses you mentioned in my series called “Eternal Security: NOSAS versus OSAS.” The litmus test is: Do all these verses you allege teach loss of salvation harmonize with Jesus’ words in John 10:28-30. I notice that you haven’t even once referred to this passage. Why?

    Actually, I did make mention of this verse. Here’s my lengthy summary:
    And yes, none will be lost that come to Christ on his terms.
    (last paragraph at 1:01am July 3

    But if you want more, then I will give you more:

    I disagree that all other verses have to fit with that one. I will guarantee that it will fit with all other verses to complete a picture of the perfect will of God for his sheep.

    If we continue in faith, this will be the proof that we are one of those that he has not lost. He is able to keep us from falling and to bring us safely into the kingdom.

    If we would choose the beguiling promises of seductive spirits leading us away from the truth, that would prove that we ARE NOT his sheep.

    John 10:26 “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

    I came at this discussion using different scriptures to prove that sin does not have dominion over a believer but sin also has no place in the kingdom of God. So if we can reconcile these two things, then we have the total picture. If we only concentrate on the positive aspect of victory of sin, then we wonder how it is possible that some people can fall away. Were they ever believers? What happened to them? Was God unfaithful?

    I have always been reluctant to have this discussion on here because I dislike debates. I dislike arguments. But since you started the discussion, I thought I would at least answer your questions.

    We can leave it at that if you like. We’ve both made our points. I think we were civil…which is really nice. I’d be happy to answer any other questions, or not….After I post this comment, if I missed something, I’ll be back.

  • [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Corylyn

    1 John 3:6
    You are using the corrupt NIV translation of the Bible that says “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him.” The Greek has no words to express phrases such as “keeps on” or “continues to” or “habitually.” The KJV translation is correct: “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” The same applies to 1 John 3:8. But instead of being consistent by rather saying “The one who keeps on doing what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.” the NIV now says: “The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.”

    So the correct rendering of the verse is: “Whoever abides in him does not sin.” But, doesn’t it contradict what John says in 1 John 1:8,9? Unless you are sinless which of course is a lie and a lie is a sin which makes you liable for 1 John 3:6, which in turn means you have lost your salvation. You did agree that you often say a “bad word,” “tell a lie,” “do not pay your speeding ticket on time, on purpose,” didn’t you? Don’t you think these things are equally deserving of hell as wilful, premeditated, rebellious, obstinate, stiff-necked, unrepentant, habitual sin? Sin is sin, whether you dit once or continually. Don’t try to pacify yourself with that kind of nonsense, because you are deceiving yourself. There’s absolutely no difference.

    Obviously the phrase “abides in Him” refers to someone who is already saved. The rest of the verse “whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him” refers to the unsaved. How should we understand this when John clearly says that he who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him and then goes on to say that he who sins has never seen him? Paul provides the answer in Romans 7. “Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” (Romans 7:20). Paul says here that sin is no longer a part of what he really was in his most inner being (Romans 7:25). It is this part of man, his perfect new creation in his most inner being, that cannot sin. The unbeliever (described in the last part of that verse) cannot claim this for himself because he does not abide in Christ.

    To lose your salvation, Christ who said “I shall never leave nor forsake you” must depart from the saint’s most inner being. Do you think He would do such a thing?

    One last question, then I’m done. Do you think Jesus lied in John 10:28-30? If He had, then He’s a lousy Saviour because who can trust someone who is in league with the devil, the father of all lies from the beginning?

    A saint can never lose his salvation. And that’s final!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Thomas and Carolyn

    I have moved all your comments concerning OSAS to the following article Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

  • [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Carolyn
    To escape the pollutions of the word does not necessarily mean that they were saved. Believe it or not, many unbelievers live their lives in accordance with many precepts in the Bible. Are they saved? Muslims escape the pollutions of the world though pious living standards. Calvinist teachers have escaped the pollutions of the world by leading their lives by high moral standards. Are they saved? Peter refers to false teachers and heretics. Were they saved?

  • [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    Carolyn,

    Let’s assume you sin today and for the next two years manage not to sin and then sin again in 2016. Did you stop sinning or did you continue to sin? Can you see how preposterous the NIV translation of 1 John 3:6 is?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Hi Thomas and Carolyn

    I have moved all your comments concerning OSAS to the following article Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

    I was wondering why Carolyn chose not to comment on OSAS here.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, just wondering your thoughts on backsliding..

    Also, how do you believe the chastening of the Lord works in the life of a believer?

  • Sharon

    [Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

    If a person who is TRULY born again and then say a few years later they wander away like the Prodical son did. Are they now lost? No. What kind of God were our God be if He couldn’t keep us saved. Here is an interesting verse

    2nd Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Our Lord made sure that our salvation would truly only be found in Him. He didn’t say, I’ll save you but you keep yourself saved. He didn’t say use your own self-righteousness and then I’ll keep you saved. No, He does the saving and He does the keeping. If one has truly been born again and for a time falls away that verse above says that He cannot deny himself.

    I have a nephew that was called to be a Preacher. He was a very eloquent speaking man, could capture your attention with just a few words out of his mouth. Something happened when he was in his second year at Bible college. He turned his back on God and he told my mom that he knew he was saved but he tells my brother (his dad) that he’s not. I think he says that to my brother just to try to aggravate him, but it doesn’t work.

    Like the prodical son, I have a prodical nephew. The prodical son was still a son and when the father saw him way on down the road he RAN towards the son. It is my prayer for my nephew that the same will happen. I know what his lifestyle was back then until the “something” happened to make him quit.

    I believe that “something” was his mother walking out on his preacher dad after 32 years of marriage. She left my brother, said she wanted to know how the other side lived. Well she is living like the other side now. I believe she is the reason my nephew turned his back on God. But I still believe my nephew is saved.

    I have said a few times on this site that God has a lot of wicked, bratty, mean spirited kids, but like the prodical son…they still belong to Jesus Christ, in spite of themselves.

  • Carolyn

    Oh Boy,Thomas, you made me say something I didn’t say: “You did agree that you often say a “bad word,” “tell a lie,” “do not pay your speeding ticket on time, on purpose,” didn’t you?

    What I actually said was: “Not meaning falling into temporary sin…which we are prone to, like saying a bad word, telling a lie, not paying your speeding ticket on time, on purpose.” It was hypothetical of the human condition in which “we” naturally do without the Sprit in order to save his skin….and not paying the speeding ticket on time was something I have never done…just hypothetical to illustrate.

    By this time in my Christian walk, I do not do these things because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and because of the renewing of my mind in Scriptures such as this one:
    Ephesians 4:28
    Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
    Ephesians 4:25
    Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

    I don’t really understand why everything with OSAS hinges on whether we believe one passage: John 10:28-30

    Thomas you said, “To lose your salvation, Christ who said “I shall never leave nor forsake you” must depart from the saint’s most inner being. Do you think He would do such a thing?”

    Yes, he would if the person does not want him anymore or if the person has chosen to replace him with something else(idolatry). If we will not heed his warning, then the consequences will be experienced. But that is a matter I can see that we will probably not agree on.

    Thomas you said, “One last question, then I’m done. Do you think Jesus lied in John 10:28-30? If He had, then He’s a lousy Saviour because who can trust someone who is in league with the devil, the father of all lies from the beginning?”

    And I reply: First of all, He did not lie. He will never lose those who come to him for salvation. Nothing can separate us or snatch us away. But we can depart of our own free will.

    Secondly, you are reading into John 10:28-30 what isn’t there…that once we are saved we can never walk away. There must be belief.

    2 Timothy 3:14-15
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    1 Timothy 4:16
    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    My point is that we have nothing to fear if we continue in the Word for this is what Christ said and what Paul said to Timothy. I have also quoted other Scriptures in support of staying in the word. I believe every word, not just John 10:28-30 but EVERY word that he spoke to us and it all makes perfect sense and leads me to assurance and confidence and faith in Him. He will bring me and anyone who continues to have faith in him safely into his Kingdom.

    Thomas: My point has been our belief versus unbelief. Your point is a question of God’s faithfulness. If we put them together it works. If we try and separate these two points and make one work without the other, then we have a problem.

    Why didn’t I comment on OSAS here? Guys…stop kidding around…Duhhhh!

    Redeemed: I prefer to talk Scripture…backsliding? chastening of the Lord? How about “we all stumble in many ways”. how about the Lord disciplines those he loves.

    I’m talked out on this issue. We part friends. love y’all.

  • Carolyn

    I really don’t think you love us because you believe we can lose our salvation while you will never even think of departing from Him, stop believing on Him and turning your back on Him to follow another religion. It is never you who would do such a horrendous thing, is it? It is always someone else and not you. I suppose that is why you can boast and say “By this time in my Christian walk, I do not do these things because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and because of the renewing of my mind in Scriptures such as this one.” The Holy Spirit only convicts when you have sinned, Carolyn. He does not convict you when you are not sinning. He leaves you to your own devices to believe and think that you are just doing great by not sinning.

    The fact that you distrust Jesus and his words in John 10:28-30 is already a sin. Jesus says: “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:29-30) But you say: “Rubbish, I am greater and mightier than God the Father. I can wrench open his hands and walk away anytime I want to.” Well, bully for you. Go ahead and do it. But before you do it, remind HIm that “By this time in my Christian walk, I do not do these things because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and because of the renewing of my mind in Scriptures such as this one.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> I really don’t think you love us because you believe we can lose our salvation while you will never even think of departing from Him, stop believing on Him and turning your back on Him to follow another religion.

    Yip Carolyn, this is just not cricket as we say here in SA. I’ve been reading your comments slowly and thoroughly and this is the jist of the matter. It is always some else and not you as Thomas says.

    Please remember, no one chased you away from here, and I am sad to see you go :( Come back when you have calmed down.

    Much love to you!

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, don’t know if you are still there, but I hope so. I don’t see you as being boasting or arrogant or seeing yourself better than others. I certainly cannot judge your heart. Yes, we should as believers have the conviction of the Holy Spirit when we are tempted to sin and obey and resist. But sister, there is still the flesh and Satan to contend with and we can and do sin. Even a bad thought is a sin. Have you ever thought about the fact that our Lord Jesus is continually watching over us and as our High Priest making continual forgiveness for our sin? That is why we cannot lose our salvation, because it depends upon JESUS, NOT US! We can’t earn our salvation and we can’t maintain it and keep it. Our Lord knows that and He made provision for it. That is enough for me. I am secure in Him and so are you my friend.

    When I asked you about backsliding, I was wanting to know your thoughts on this. I didn’t feel it necessary to quote chapter and verse. It seemed to me that you were avoiding the issue.

    Love and grace to you!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    I wish I could FORCE YOU TO understand this, but I can’t… I can only pray that you do.

    Redeemed said: “Even a bad thought is a sin. Have you ever thought about the fact that our Lord Jesus is continually watching over us and as our High Priest making continual forgiveness for our sin? That is why we cannot lose our salvation, because it depends upon JESUS, NOT US!”

  • Carolyn

    On the contrary, Thomas. I have loved you all enough to take time out to tell you to stop seeing the Christian life only through your OSAS coloured glasses and see some of the other “alleged” Scriptures that remind us that we can still be beguiled as Eve was beguiled.
    2 Corinthians 11:2-4 KJV
    2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
    3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    We can still be “carried away” by strange teachings and “fall from our secure position”. NIV or “being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness”. AKJV
    2 Peter 3:16-18
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    My caution is that we cannot yet bury our heads in the sand and pretend that we cannot still be deceived with reminders such as: Be on your guard. Take heed. Abide in the word. Pray without ceasing. Encourage one another daily.

    As for where our victory lies, we have already agreed on that. We are complete in Him. Christ has overcome for us. We are more than conquerors through him who loved us. We have no obligation to the sinful nature to obey its evil desires. We can reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God.

    Debs, Redeemed and Thomas. I think that you have somewhat misunderstood me as you seem to regard me as following something other than the truth. Another religion, Thomas…really??

    We seem to be talking past each other on this. I do believe I can still sin. I do believe Christ has and will continue to deliver me from sin, as well as everyone else who continues on in the faith. What I don’t believe is that we are held captive. We still have a free will and if we decide to go our own way, the exit door is not locked and bolted. As was the case in Billy Graham for instance, who at one time preached the pure and simple gospel and has opted for the Universal gospel of Freemasonry.

    So as I seem to be regarded as a delinquent in the faith, for now I will love you and leave you. Perhaps I will come back when I “have calmed down”, although I don’t get much calmer than what you see.
    1 Peter 1:22
    Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.

  • Rob Diamond

    To Thomas:

    An answer for John 10:28-30

    Almost every eternal security proponent which tries to prove once saved always saved, places heavy emphasis on Jn. 10:28 and no one can pluck them out of my hand. For some, this is the one proof text for their never perish once you have been saved teaching. But does John 10:28 really teach once saved always saved and never perish for all who have been saved? Let’s take a close look at it and the surrounding verses:
    My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they FOLLOW me. I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10:27-29)
    Please note the word follow in verse 27. It is a CONTINUOUS TENSE in the Greek and describes Jesus’ sheep. The plural pronouns they and them refer back to verse 27. Hence, the only ones promised the wonderful never perish security in verses 28 and 29 are the ones who CONTINUE to follow Jesus! No such never perish promise, either here or anywhere else in the Bible, is reserved for one who doesn’t CONTINUE to follow Jesus, such as a backslider. That, however, is never the way the eternal security teachers cite John 10:28! Incredible spiritual harm has been done over the years by ignoring verse 27 and reading into (distorting) verses 28 and 29 (no one can pluck them out of my hand) into something that is not there. Verse 27 is an integral part of John 10:28 for it describes who shall never perish, that is, Jesus’ sheep who continue to follow Him. To omit verse 27 and/or the facts about the word follow is to change the meaning of Scripture!

    Thomas, you say that Jesus must be lying in these verses if a believer can lose his salvation. Well, when put in the context stated above it is obvious he is not lying because the believer’s eternal state (according to John 10:27-30) is dependent upon him continuously following Jesus.It is a CONDITIONAL security.

    What about Peter?
    Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Did not Peter deny Jesus three times? Without Peter’s repentance then Jesus would have had to deny Peter before the Father is that not so?

    Frankly, I don’t want to get into the eternal security debate, because for whatever reason it seems to me that which ever way one believes he or she remains with that belief. I have not seen many change their belief in relation to this particular topic. I did want to respond to Thomas’ emphasis on John 10:28-30, though.

  • Rob Diamond

    Jesus makes an emphatic statement not a conditional one. Jesus says his sheep will always continue to listen to his voice and follow Him because no one can pluck them out of his or his Father’s hands. He does not say “if” (conditional) they listen to my voice and follow me, they will never perish. He says they LISTEN to my voice and they FOLLOW me. There is nothing conditional about that. He used an example from the everyday life of a shepherd in the Middle East. The shepherds know their sheep WILL follow them whenever they call them. The sheep never fail to recognize their voice and ALWAYS respond in obedience to his voice and follow him, and no one else. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:10 that the saint will never regret his salvation and renounce his faith. Will you ever regret your salvation and turn your back on Jesus? Nah! you and Carolyn and the rest who do not believe in eternal security will never do a dastardly thing like that, would you? It is always the other vagrant who will do something so horrendous.

    Are you suggesting that Peter lost his salvation when he denied Jesus and then repented to be saved again? If so, you are actually denying what Paul says in Hebrews 6. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Heb 6:4-6). If Peter lost his salvation and never repented of his denial of Jesus, he is now in hell. No, even worse, his repentance would have been a sham because anyone who renounces his faith and ceases to follow Jesus CANNOT ever repent again. They are forever lost, according to Hebrews 6.

    Matthew 10:33.

    The context is: “Don’t be afraid of men. If they called the Master of the house, Beelzebub, they will also call you that. But don’t fear them because they can only kill your body and nothing more, but fear God who is able to destroy both the body and soul in hell. So be bold and proclaim my Name and my Gospel openly before men. If you don’t, I will deny you before the Father.” Judas was the only one who denied Jesus before people because he was never saved. Matthew 10:33 does not teach conditional salvation.

    Frankly, I don’t want to get into the eternal security debate, because for whatever reason it seems to me that which ever way one believes he or she remains with that belief. I have not seen many change their belief in relation to this particular topic. I did want to respond to Thomas’ emphasis on John 10:28-30, though.

    Your rebuttal is the usual one and can be refuted very easily, as I have just done here. In closing I would like to say this. Conditional salvation (NOSAS) is an outright denial of Jesus Christ being our High Priest and Advocate at the right hand of God. Sin, as you know, is separation from God (Isaiah 59: 1-2). As such, any sin is just as evil as the sin of denying Jesus Christ, wouldn’t you agree? The Bible doesn’t say that when you’ve done this that you’ve lost your salvation. No, it says “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1 John 2:1). The point is this: Even when a saint denies Jesus before men, like Peter, he will always regret his sin and ask for forgiveness. Only the one who isn’t really saved, like Judas, will ever repent and ask for forgiveness. I know of saints who denied Jesus because of the utter horrendous and harsh persecution they endured. But praise be to God, like Peter, they wept bitterly, repented and asked God’s forgiveness. Would you say they are in hell now because Jesus said He would deny them before his Father?

    Jesus lives forever at the right hand of God to save all the saints to the uttermost. If you do not believe that He is capable of doing this, you are denying Him before men.

  • Carolyn

    We seem to be talking past each other on this. I do believe I can still sin. I do believe Christ has and will continue to deliver me from sin, as well as everyone else who continues on in the faith. What I don’t believe is that we are held captive. We still have a free will and if we decide to go our own way, the exit door is not locked and bolted. As was the case in Billy Graham for instance, who at one time preached the pure and simple gospel and has opted for the Universal gospel of Freemasonry.

    None of the verses you quoted prove that a saint can lose his salvation. Zilch, Nada.

    In 2 Corinthians 11:2-4 Paul never says that they had lost their salvation. He was merely warning them against false apostles whom they tolerated in their churches. Like Eve who was deceived by Satan they too were being beguiled by the apostles of the serpent (Satan) and needed to be warned against them. To believe that you can lose your salvation is itself the cunning deception of Satan because He wants you to distrust Jesus for the uttermost salvation of your soul (Hebrews 7:25; Philippians 1:6). He is telling you that He may have saved you but you can’t trust Him to save you to the uttermost because you may regret your salvation and turn your back on Him and because you are greater and mightier that the Father. Really??? – while He says that a genuinely saved saint will never regret his salvation. Who do you want to believe – Jesus Christ or Satan? As you’ve said, you have a free-will. So use it and decide who you want to believe – Jesus or Satan.

    And so too, 2 Peter 3:16-18 does not in the very least prove that a saint can lose his salvation. You don’t seem to know what the difference is between real and genuine believers and false teachers. Peter refers to false teachers who twist the Scripture which they do not understand, in the very same way they twist the other Scriptures they do understand – to their own destruction. Believers, like Peter, may not fully understand all the Scriptures, but they certainly ought not twist their obvious meanings. And that’s precisely what you and Rob Diamond are doing. You are twisting the obvious meaning of John 10:27-30. Stop it, you are doing it to your own spiritual ruin (I’m not saying you will lose your salvation. I’m saying that you are allowing yourself to be ruined spiritually through unbelief).

    To preach the pure and simple Gospel does not mean that the one preaching it is saved. Judas did exactly what the other disciples had been told to do and was never saved. Yes, of course we still have a free will, but I ask again: Would you ever regret your salvation, renounce your faith and cease to follow Jesus? (2 Corinthians 7:10). If you really want to do that, you were never saved in the first place.

    I never said that you follow another religion. I used it as an example to stress my point. So don;t get upset.

    What do you do at night at the end of every day. Do you say to yourself: Phew, I made it again today. I did not sin, I did not deny Jesus, I did not sin wilfully. Phew, I have kept my salvation.

  • brotherdonny

    Hester
    Could I share a scripture with you,and ask you to meditate on it, and ask God to open your spiritual eyes to it. Ephesians.1:16-17
    Romans.5:8-10
    But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.That is past tense. That if One died for all, then all died.2Corinthians.5:14

    verse 9.Much more then,there is more.? having now been Justified by His Blood,we shall be saved FROM WRATH through Him. We shall be saved FROM WRATH through Him. That is future tense, there is your eternal security. Having now been Justified
    verse 10
    For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more-there is more?.and this is the exciting part, we shall be saved by His life.
    Thing about that. We are reconciled by His Death,so we can be saved by His Life. In the

  • brotherdonny

    Hester
    Amplified.Romans.5:10 (– now that we are reconciled,that we shall be saved (daily delivered from sins dominion) through His Resurrection life. We have the living Christ dwelling within us, living His life in us and through us,It is no longer I that lives.
    When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him. Colossians.3:4

  • Sharon

    This sounds like what my ex sister in law did to my brother who is a Pastor. She wanted to see how the other side lived…so she is living it. You wouldn’t live in Fort Myers, Florida do you? Just wondering.

    Redeemed wrote:

    Hester, I understand the examples you gave and I have known such people. One was even a pastor’s wife who turned into an alcoholic divorced a faithful husband. She gave every evidence of being saved. This has left many perplexed and wondering how this could be so.

    Hester, we cannot look to people to prove biblical texts. What the Bible says is either true or it is not. Of course we know it is the ultimate truth and the foundation of our faith.

    You did not answer my questions about being born again – would you kindly do so? If someone is truly born again, that process cannot be undone, can it any more than a natural child can re-enter the mother’s womb.

    In your examples you referred to both women as “believers”. Upon what do you base that upon? Did they hear the true and complete Gospel and respond to it or was it a “gospel” of works? We don’t have a complete picture. What EXACTLY was the origin of their belief?
    How do you know it was genuine?

    Thomas makes a good point. There are so many false professions based upon faulty preaching. There is the extreme of dragging people to the altar through brow beating to emotionalism to works-based salvation, to easy believism with no repentance. It runs the gamut. It is sad to think how many people are running around with unconverted hearts, trying to live the Christian life in the flesh and to please others rather than the Lord and serve Him out of a loving and grateful heart.

    Hester, you can’t interpret the Word of God and determine doctrine by looking at people. You can’t say for certain that these women were even believers because God knows the heart.

    These are both tragedies for sure. And like the example I cited, it leaves us scratching our heads. The woman I mentioned in retrospect liked the limelight and was very self-focused, things that went unnoticed. Her story isn’t over either. She is in God’s hands.

    I know people who don’t believe in eternal security of the believer. They don’t know how to rest in the Lord. They constantly strive and have no peace. Their service tends to be in the flesh our of obligation rather than love for the Lord.

    I thank you for this discussion and I hope that it is fruitful for all. It is certainly one that is needed.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rob Diamond

    >> Did not Peter deny Jesus three times? Without Peter’s repentance then Jesus would have had to deny Peter before the Father is that not so?

    Remember this, it is the Holy Spirit abiding in US that causes us to repent. So Peter would have repented no matter what BECAUSE of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit caused Peter to grieve through chastising him, and because of Peter’s grief and sorrow the Holy Spirit brought Peter back to Jesus to repent.

    You fail you understand that it is NOT OUR WORKS that keep us saved, but it is God’s POWER that keeps us saved. It’s the Holy Spirit abiding IN YOU that keeps bringing you back to Jesus over and over and over again. If it was not for Jesus’ power to keep you, EVERYONE would fall away immediately because your flesh is weak and totally and utterly sinful.

    By saying that you can’t be kept by Jesus Christ you deny His saving power to keep you, you believe He is weak and you are strong; you believe you are strong enough to keep your salvation through your own hard work, and this is false!

    Now look at this:

    When you are genuinely saved your name is written in to the book of Life and when it’s written in there it’s NEVER BLOTTED OUT.

    Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

    Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

    Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

    Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

    Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    Please CONTINUE to read this article explaining why you are KEPT: The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

  • Redeemed

    So sorry to hear that this happened to your pastor brother. Sadly this kind of thing happens more often than one would think. People often forget to pray for their pastors’ marriages and families. They have big targets on their backs and tremendous pressures and often no one in whom they can confide and won’t betray their trust.

    Been to Ft. Myers, but only as a visitor.

  • Rob Diamond

    Thomas:

    You said:
    Nah! you and Carolyn and the rest who do not believe in eternal security will never do a dastardly thing like that, would you? It is always the other vagrant who will do something so horrendous.

    Is that sort of statement really necessary?

    It is perfectly fine to show your interpretation of the scripture. People can either agree or disagree with how you say this is what the scripture means. But with that statement above you unjustly lump myself, Carolyn, and others into some sort of “holier than thou” category without TRULY KNOWING me nor Carolyn or the rest profoundly enough to make a statement like that.

    Frankly, though, if that is how you need to respond, so be it. To me it shows a lack of spiritual maturity and perhaps you are not qualified to be in a lead position on this sort of website. Is that too strong of a statement coming from me or am I being judgmental myself since I do not TRULY KNOW you? I am not above being judged.I pray I do learn from someone else’s understanding of scripture. But don’t forget, with the judgment you judge you will be judged in return. (and so will I)

    Carry on.

  • Rob Diamond

    The question remains: Would you ever regret your salvation, wrench open Jesus Christ’s and his father’s hands, renounce your faith, and turn your back on Them never to return again? Or is it only others who do that?

    You see my statement as rude because you refuse to answer my question. It’s an old tactic and works just fine when it remains undetected. Many have accused me of being rude and judgmental but that’s just their way to sidetrack the issue. Please answer my question. You’re the one showing a lack of spiritual maturity by refusing to answer my question.

    I suggest that you show your spiritual maturity and dignity in the face of my lack of spiritual maturity and answer my question with dignity.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rob

    Thomas has a very good question. Will you ever turn you back on Jesus? Will you ever renounce your faith? Will you try to unblot you name out of the book of life? Or is it only other people who do it?

    People who believe you can lose your salvation seem to think they will never be the ones to turn their backs on Jesus, it’s every one else who is susceptible to losing their salvation.

    Here is another question, how do you know you have not lost it already? What is keeping you from losing it right now?

    The idea of losing your salvation, is just as ridiculous as believing your are Elect before time memorial – you just don’t know if you have lost your salvation already never to become saved again (Hebrews 6), and you just don’t know if God picked you to be one of the Elect or to one to go to hell. God it not cruel. To believe that you can lose your salvation places a huge BONDAGE on the individual and this is not biblical.

  • Carolyn

    Thomas you said: “Nah! you and Carolyn and the rest who do not believe in eternal security will never do a dastardly thing like that, would you? It is always the other vagrant who will do something so horrendous.

    The question I have is why is always the other vagrants like Emergents, for instance, who will do something horrendous? You spend all kinds of time refuting the Rob Bells and the Billy Grahams and Rick Warrens who once preached a sound gospel, as though they were always wolves. But I don’t believe they were always so. They once believed an orthodox gospel and have veered off course. It’s not always someone else. That’s the point I’m making. It could be you. It could be me if we don’t walk in humility.

    And if you read the Scriptures without your OSAS distortion glasses on, you will see what is promised those who wander off and end up shipwrecking their faith. It’s not just the Emergents or the Purpose Driven or Hypercharismatics who will end up on the rocks. It’s not just the other guys. We need to walk humbly with God, keeping our doctrine pure, or we could find ourselves rejecting truth for some deception.

    1 Corinthians 15:2
    By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    >> I really don’t think you love us because you believe we can lose our salvation while you will never even think of departing from Him, stop believing on Him and turning your back on Him to follow another religion.

    Yip Carolyn, this is just not cricket as we say here in SA. I’ve been reading your comments slowly and thoroughly and this is the jist of the matter. It is always some else and not you as Thomas says.

    Please remember, no one chased you away from here, and I am sad to see you go :( Come back when you have calmed down.

    Much love to you!

    I make no difference between us, Debs. I’m on the same boat you are on. I’m chief of sinners. I’ve been saved by grace.

    No one chased me away, but it’s hard to walk with a “groupthink” that considers me an instigator of misrepresentation and distortion (if not stated emphatically, implied most certainly). It just keeps coming up…because I don’t fit the OSAS doctrine.

    I won’t change my mind, so not much use of hoping for that. I thought we could still agree on other things, but the OSAS monster keeps rearing its pretty little head. And Debs, don’t deflect onto something like me needing to calm down. You know that’s not the issue.

    I have not been the divisive one here. But I feel the need to speak up and then off I go, hi-ho, hi-ho. A little humour for my send off.

    The issue we disagree. I see all “ifs”…conditional security…certainly eternal security, but conditional…

  • Sharon

    My brother’s confidant was our dad. Dad went home to live forever with Jesus in 2008. But he does have a couple close preacher brothers he talks too as well sometimes. The target is on their lives. The family has one too. As much as I love my brother I did not like being related to my pastor. Yep we all should be in prayer for our Pastors.

    Redeemed wrote:

    So sorry to hear that this happened to your pastor brother. Sadly this kind of thing happens more often than one would think. People often forget to pray for their pastors’ marriages and families. They have big targets on their backs and tremendous pressures and often no one in whom they can confide and won’t betray their trust.

    Been to Ft. Myers, but only as a visitor.

  • Sharon

    1st Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    When all is said and done, and debates have raged forever on this topic will there ever come a time when we will put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and believe in His complete word? If we have trusted Jesus with our eternal destiny can we not still trust him for those times when our own humanity leaks all over us and we sin or even walk away for a time?

    The verse above in 1st Corinthians teaches us that everything in scripture was written for an ensample or example for us. So if one truly can lose their salvation then there must be an example of someone who did so. We have trusted in Jesus and He was Baptized for our example. He gave us example of how communion or the Lords Supper should be conducted. Jesus had a “Divine Appointment with Saul/Paul. Paul, through the unction of the Holy Spirit, gave instructions as to how we conduct church services, home life, how to have a work ethic, a adult child’s responsibility to their parent and more examples of how we are to live for our King while here below. We have been introduced to many different examples via other children of the King. None in scripture were perfect people. Just like us they had their “besetting sins.” All the good things in scripture along with all of the bad things were written for our example.

    My question for those reading this and do not believe God is strong enough to keeps us saved then with all respect, please give me just one example of someone from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21 where a person that was truly saved then because of some sin they did lost their salvation. Remember the Bible was written for our example.

    Then the verse in Ephesians…we, the saved have been sealed unto the day of redemption. What does that mean? The Holy Spirit is easily grieved. He has sealed us unto the day of redemption. What sin could make the Holy Spirit “unseal” a saved person?

    It grieves the Holy Spirit when a saved person believes they can lose their salvation. Since it is His job to seal us and then we go “extra-biblical” and believe we can lose what He has sealed, then it offends Him. It’s not nice to grieve the Holy Spirit.

    We, the Saved, are Saved and sealed! Rather than believe a false teaching of losing your salvation, rejoice because we are sealed unto the day of our redemption.

  • Rob Diamond

    Rob Diamond

    This post has been deleted because of his use of a swear word. He says ” I want to add that I definitely believe the Lord God is able to keep me from falling and present me faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 1:24). But I am keenly aware of warnings in the Bible about practicing sin as a believer. That is dangerous, dangerous territory in which to be.”

    Indeed, it is dangerous and not until he learns to practice what he preaches and has the manners to answer questions with dignity and civility will I consider placing his comments again. Well, perhaps it is not so bad to use one swear word now and again; it cannot be seen as practicing sin and definitely not as loss of salvation. To practice sin, for instance, means to use a swear word in every sentence you utter and not when you use it in one little comment on the internet.

    Edited by Thomas Lessing

  • Carolyn,

    You have now proved beyond any doubt what I have been saying all along. It is always the other person who loses his salvation and never you. You constantly refer to others (the emergents, the Rob Bells, the Billy Grahams and the Rick Warrens) who will or already had lost their salvation but never you yourself.

    I also said that the preaching of the unadulterated word of God is no evidence that you are saved. To believe and preach an orthodox doctrine does not mean you are saved. Even the devil is able to preach an orthodox doctrine.

    You agree that “It’s not just the Emergents or the Purpose Driven or Hypercharismatics who will end up on the rocks. It’s not just the other guys. We need to walk humbly with God, keeping our doctrine pure, or we could find ourselves rejecting truth for some deception.” But you never say outright that you yourself WILL renounce your faith and turn you back on God, never to return to Him ever again. Because, as you know, you believe that when someone renounces his faith he never can be re-saved again (Hebrews 6). He or she is then forever lost. Even an unbeliever has a better chance to be saved than a believer who has lost his salvation.

    “Making shipwreck of the faith” as you’ve mentioned is very dangerous. In fact, to teach others that they can lose their salvation is exactly that: It makes shipwreck of their faith because you are teaching them that they shouldn’t trust Jesus who promised: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.” (John 10:28-30).

    Don’t worry. It’s OK for you to believe that YOU can lose your own salvation but stop making shipwreck of others’ faith by telling them that they can lose their salvation. Am I saying that we should give others a licence to sin? God forbid. The very fact that Jesus has done a perfect work on the cross should encourage and motivate us to live holy lives and anyone who says it’s OK to sin because you can’t lose your salvation needs to be reminded what Paul said: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:1-4).

    You say: “certainly eternal security, but conditional…” Conditioned on what . . . your performance, track record? Was your salvation conditioned on your own performance and/or track record? If not, then you have no reason to believe that the maintenance of your salvation is conditioned on your performance/track record.

    You say: “I won’t change my mind, so not much use of hoping for that. I thought we could still agree on other things, but the OSAS monster keeps rearing its pretty little head. And Debs, don’t deflect onto something like me needing to calm down. You know that’s not the issue.” To agree on other things and disagree on the very core teaching of the Bible – salvation – is being downright dishonest.

    OK, it’s quite alright to tell Jesus to his face: “You’re a liar. You lied in John 10:28-30. You can do whatever you like, I won’t change my mind. OSAS is a monster because you loved to teach monstrous doctrines such as eternal security. And don’t tell me to calm down, because that’s not the issue. The issue is that you are a liar or at least a double talker with a forked tongue.”

    Is Jesus a liar, Carolyn? What did He mean when He said “and they shall never perish?” Does it mean they are saved now but there is a very strong possibility that they will perish? Be honest with yourself and answer the questions honestly. I am not your enemy. You are you own enemy and making shipwreck of your own faith and not I or Deborah.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Do you disagree with this verses below:

    When you are genuinely saved your name is written in to the book of Life and when it’s written in there it’s NEVER BLOTTED OUT.

      Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

      Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

      Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

    Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

      Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    Is Jesus lying when he says He will never blot your name out of the book of Life?

  • Rob Diamond

    To Thomas: (and Deborah)

    I am truly sorry.
    I will not do it again.

    I meditate on and apply Col 4:6 (Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.) to my heart and mind.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Rob Diamond

    Thank you, and no problem, now how about ya answering my questions eh :)

    When you are genuinely saved your name is written in to the book of Life and once it’s written in there it’s NEVER BLOTTED OUT.

      Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

      Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

    Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

      Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    Now, according to people who believe you can lose your salvation, the above two verses should send shock waves through your system, because either you are making up stories that you can lose your salvation, or you want Jesus to be a liar and you want Him to blot your name out of the Lambs book of life, where HE SAID that once it’s written in there He will NEVER REMOVE remove it.>

  • Carolyn

    Debs, Thomas…when is our faith genuine? At what point do we “manifest” the life of God. At what point do we prove like Abraham did, that our faith is genuine…(Hebrews 11)…….is it only at the end of life that such a detail CAN be proved?

    At what point can we say, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have overcome? How long are we to endure? To the end….perhaps that’s our answer then. If we continue to the end, unto death, abiding in him, repenting when we do sin, searching for him with all our hearts, then our faith will be proved genuine.

    Obviously, not everyone that says they have faith, has faith. Obviously, not everyone who follows Jesus for awhile and then, like those who were following him for the bread and the miracles, could no longer accept his teachings about WHO he was and turned away. Where is the point where we say, I want this eternal life badly enough to forsake everything else and get on the narrow road, endure sufferings, temptations, rejections, trials, fears, frustrations, (my own sinful tendencies and repent of them) and attain to genuine faith/eternal life)?

    Matthew 7:13-15
    King James Version (KJV)
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Yes, I believe that those with genuine faith have their names written in the book of life, Abraham, for example, and it will never be blotted out.

    And Sharon…there are examples of people who began to follow Jesus for the wrong reasons(political agendas) and their “unbelief” was exposed and they lost out. Judas is a prime example.

    What I’m going to work on today is doing some study on this “genuine faith” that we talk about. Hebrews 11 gives some examples of those with genuine faith. James talks about the difference between genuine faith and a faithless faith.
    I’ll be back.

  • I’m too tired to answer you just yet. I’ll be back too.

    But while you and I wait to get back, perhaps you would like to tell us whether Judas was saved and then lost his salvation.

  • Carolyn wrote:

    Debs, Thomas…when is our faith genuine? At what point do we “manifest” the life of God. At what point do we prove like Abraham did, that our faith is genuine…(Hebrews 11)…….is it only at the end of life that such a detail CAN be proved?

    Maybe just a quick question before I’m off to bed.

    In which Bible book do we find this verse: “Manifest the life of God in your life like Abraham did and you shall be saved.” You have a whole year to answer.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, I was going to stay out of this discussion as my time is so limited and I am overwhelmed at the moment with many cares and responsibilities and I am of advanced age, but I wanted to interject a thought.

    First, thank you for hanging in there and continuing to reason together.

    When one surrenders to Christ, one is born-again. That is an instantaneous irreversible event/transformation. That is justification.

    Everything stems from that pivotal point in the life of a believer. We all start from different life circumstances and “baggage”, but the new birth is the same for everyone.

    Our rate of growth in the faith depends much upon whether we are properly discipled or not. But the fact remains when that new birth occurs, the Bible says we are a new creation, a new creature. We did not earn our salvation and we cannot strive to keep it. We have choices to make and some will make good choices and some will make foolish choices. One brings positive consequences and the other negative consequences. But always the Lord is there and salvation is secure because Christ is the One Who keeps it.

    Also at the new birth, one becomes a child of God. That is an irreversible event. When one has a biological child, even when that child disobeys, the relationship remains intact. But there are consequences.

    Dear sister, if you could only grasp the concept that the born-again condition is irreversible! That does not mean that we take it for granted or that we wink at sin. As the Apostle Paul says, “God forbid!” God’s grace comes at a great price incomprehensible in its totality to us. We serve Him out of GRATITUDE, NOT obligation or duty! We serve Him out of LOVE for what He did for us, each one personally. We do not want to disappoint such a loving Father if we understand what He did for us, even on a human level.

    Carolyn, our Father knows our frailties. That is why our Lord Jesus is in heaven making INTERCESSION for us. He is keeping our salvation secure! We cannot do it!

    Would you please ponder these thoughts and respond about them? It is not my desire to contend – but to convince you of the enormity of God’s love for His own. It is such a blessed and edifying reality and it is my desire to share that blessing with others who are convinced they can lose their salvation.

    God knows those who are truly His and those who are only pretending. He will sort it all out in His own timing. I just exhort those who are not living for Him to go back to square one and be sure of their salvation. There are so many false professions and false “gospels”.

    May the Lord bless you and grant you His peace.

  • Sharon

    Carolyn, I believe I said, someone who was truly saved then because of some sin lost their salvation. There are no true believers that have ever been, nor ever will be lost. What if someone lost their salvation and didn’t know it? Just which sin would make someone lose their salvation? I remember my grandfather saying, the only person that can live above sin is a person that rents a second floor apartment over a Tavern. :o) We all are sinners. Do I like the fact that I still sin? No.

    When Adam sinned the old nature was passed along to all of us, saved and lost alike. Then when a person receives Jesus as savior there comes a new nature. New and Old are in battle constantly. Didn’t Paul basically say, the things I don’t want to do , I do. The things I should do, I don’t. Did that make Paul lost over and over, no of course not.

    Human beings in our pride want “something” to do with our salvation. We know we cannot save ourselves. So if we cannot save ourselves then maybe the next best thing is keeping ourselves saved. If that is true then I am eternally lost. I could not save myself and I cannot keep myself saved.

    Sad but true, God has many disobedient children. But the key word there is “children.” We are still HIS. True Christianity is the only belief system in the world of religions where we are not responsible to save ourselves. We can’t. We also can’t keep ourselves saved. We don’t have to murder the infidels to get to go to heaven. We don’t have to beat our bodies into a bloody pulp to put us in Higher Standing with God. We don’t have to give one penny to heavens bank account to secure us that Mansion with a great view.

    OUR salvation is not about anything, anyone, anytime, anyplace. We simply respond to the glorious and simple gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the ONLY thing that is our part…receiving the gift by faith. Once we respond we receive, we then move up in status from Hell Bound Lost Sinner to a Sinner Saved By Grace! That is it. Every thing else is up to God. He called, we received, He saved and He keeps.

    We grow in our faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Some grow in Him faster than others. Some stay on the “milk of the word” and remain mere babes in Christ even though they may have been saved for 30 years. Then there are others that have only been saved a very few years but can handle the “meat of the word.”

    I told a friend of mine a few years ago that I no longer fear the Lord’s discipline because I deserve it. I am more concerned about hurting the Lord and what people may think of Him if I did something wrong. I still feel that way.

    I’ve seen you post things here and that you believe you can lose your salvation. Have you ever done just that? How many times? Did you get Baptized after each new saving?

    You would experience so very much freedom in Christ if you would let yourself believe the whole truth. Your love for the Lord is obvious in the things you post. But your pain shows too.

    Carolyn, God isn’t interested in mind numbed robots. He is our ABBA! Our daddy, our heavenly Papa. My earthly daddy would never have disowned me no matter what I might have done. Would I have hurt him, yes. Would he demand that his blood be removed from my veins? No! That would be absurd. Even so is it with our Heavenly Father.

    Do you believe that the Blood of Jesus washed you clean? Which sins were you forgiven for when you received Jesus as Savior?

    When I or you or any other believer was saved we were INSTANTLY FORGIVEN FOR ALL, ALL, ALL of our sins. That means ALL of our past sins, present sins, and yes, even our future sins. All of our sin has been atoned for.

    That of course is not God giving us a license to sin. After we grow in Him He grows more precious. The more I grow, the more I don’t want to do things I used to do. But as I said in another post, sometimes my humanity spews out all over me. But I’m still forgiven.

    When you sin Carolyn God doesn’t see you, He sees Jesus Christ. Do you think God would trample through the blood of His only begotten Son to get at you and disown you? Absolutely not! He loved you enough to save you and loves you enough to keep you saved.

    We the saved will continue to sin until we draw our last breath. We should confess this days trespasses. But this confession is not about our salvation, our kinship with God. Daily confession is about FELLOWSHIP. When we humble ourselves at the feet of Jesus and ask for cleansing for today…we keep that line of communication open between us and our Lord.

    I pray you find peace with this issue because you will love the freedom it gives.

    p.s. Judas was never saved. He lived good and holy before the other 11. Jesus knew who he was dealing with. When Jesus told the disciples at the last supper that one of them would betray him, they all asked is it I. None of them suspected Judas.

    p.s.s. Only you and God knows if your faith is genuine.

    Carolyn wrote:

    Debs, Thomas…when is our faith genuine? At what point do we “manifest” the life of God. At what point do we prove like Abraham did, that our faith is genuine…(Hebrews 11)…….is it only at the end of life that such a detail CAN be proved?

    At what point can we say, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have overcome? How long are we to endure? To the end….perhaps that’s our answer then. If we continue to the end, unto death, abiding in him, repenting when we do sin, searching for him with all our hearts, then our faith will be proved genuine.

    Obviously, not everyone that says they have faith, has faith. Obviously, not everyone who follows Jesus for awhile and then, like those who were following him for the bread and the miracles, could no longer accept his teachings about WHO he was and turned away. Where is the point where we say, I want this eternal life badly enough to forsake everything else and get on the narrow road, endure sufferings, temptations, rejections, trials, fears, frustrations, (my own sinful tendencies and repent of them) and attain to genuine faith/eternal life)?

    Matthew 7:13-15
    King James Version (KJV)
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Yes, I believe that those with genuine faith have their names written in the book of life, Abraham, for example, and it will never be blotted out.

    And Sharon…there are examples of people who began to follow Jesus for the wrong reasons(political agendas) and their “unbelief” was exposed and they lost out. Judas is a prime example.

    What I’m going to work on today is doing some study on this “genuine faith” that we talk about. Hebrews 11 gives some examples of those with genuine faith. James talks about the difference between genuine faith and a faithless faith.
    I’ll be back.

  • Sharon

    Carolyn,

    Here is what the Apostle John said about salvation and that we can know we are saved. That is exclusive to other belief systems. When we’re in Christ we know…all other religions can only hope they’re going to heaven.

    1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

  • Sharon

    I do not understand why someone must have a “confession.” Whether it be the Westminster, London, one after another. There is only one totally Biblical confession of Faith in the New Testament. Here it is.

    The following is the Petrine Confession of 32 AD.

    I defy you to prove that it is inferior to the Heidelburg,
    Belgic,
    Helvetic,
    Dordrecht,
    London Baptist…..

    or the Westminster Confessions…..

    or to the Thirty Nine Articles of the Anglican Church…..

    John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
    70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

    What is the Petrine Confession?

    Answer: “…..we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

    Here is my question to you– What part of the Bible is deficient in such a way that you have an urgent need to have it restated for you by John Calvin, John Knox, Menno Simons, the Archbishop of Canterbury, or any other double domed high tully muck from Church History?

    To say that an appended “confession” is essential to be added to the Apostle Peter’s confession above, or that Bible believer cannot be sure what they believe without an uninspired man-made short version of Truth, is blasphemy.

    Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    What part of verse 18 do you not understand?

    Millions of alleged Christians know their “Confession” better than they know the Word of God. For allowing heretics and hirelings to lead you into sub-Christian documents, as final authority, will get you damnation.

    Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition (confession). 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Thomas Lessing wrote:

    John Jean wrote:

    When you read the language of Scripture you see the consistent contrast between those Jesus chose and those who constitute “the world,” whom Jesus would not pray for (John 17:9).

    Calvinists have an uncanny way to change the meaning of “world” as they like. When they quote John 3:16 “world” constitutes only the world of the elect but when they quote John 17:9 it constitutes the world of the non-elect. Jesus said He did not pray for the world because He could not pray his High Priestly prayer for unbelievers. “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” was a prayer for unbelievers. John 17:9 does not mean that He never prayed for unbelievers.

    I am prepared to debate you on one condition – that you first read Calvin’s “Institutes of the Christian Religion” and Martin LUther’s “Bondage of the Will.”

    The Westminster Confession states:

    “They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the degree of election (Westminster Confession of Faith (London: n.p., 1643), XVll:i,ii.)

    Arthur Pink wrote,

    “Those who speak of man’s `free will,’ and insist upon his inherent power to either accept or reject the Saviour, do but voice their ignorance of the real condition of Adam’s fallen children.” (Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Baker Book House, 2nd prtg. 1984),foreword to first edition, unnumbered first page.)

    I can quote to you many other Calvinists who deny that man has a free-will.

  • Sharon

    I’ve had a couple more thoughts since I posted to you about eternal security. If you try to compare yourself to other believers you will always be disappointed. You mentioned Hebs 11 concerning those mentioned there and their faith. Those are Old Testament examples. None of us are an Abraham, Isaac etc.

    Are you struggling concerning your own salvation Carolyn? Sometimes people make salvation harder than what it really is. Remember in Acts when the jailer asked Paul, what must I do to be saved? Pauls answer was simple, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That’s it, simple faith. There was no having to anguish and pray til he broke through. Believe.

    The Christian life is a day by day, sometimes moment by moment and sometimes mundane life. We get up, go to work, take care of our families and put our trust in God. Not all of us are called into the limelight. Not all of us have large titles and vast audiences listening to us sing or teach. Most Christians are just everyday folks, that love the Lord and do what He wants us to do.

    I have had this thought….God holds a contest to see who was the most important of his kids. Well, it would have to be Paul right? Or maybe Mary. Then again it might be Peter, Joanna, the woman at the well. It must be John the Baptist. I can’t help but wonder if it isn’t Miss Pat, she kept the nursery for 38 years. Never late, always faithful and took care of kids of kids that she watched over.

    When it comes to feeling unimportant in Gods family, there is no need because we all hold the same title…HIS!

    I hope Deb-ster and Thomas will help you find the peace you seem to desperately need.

    carolyn wrote:

    Debs, Thomas…when is our faith genuine? At what point do we “manifest” the life of God. At what point do we prove like Abraham did, that our faith is genuine…(Hebrews 11)…….is it only at the end of life that such a detail CAN be proved?

    At what point can we say, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have overcome? How long are we to endure? To the end….perhaps that’s our answer then. If we continue to the end, unto death, abiding in him, repenting when we do sin, searching for him with all our hearts, then our faith will be proved genuine.

    Obviously, not everyone that says they have faith, has faith. Obviously, not everyone who follows Jesus for awhile and then, like those who were following him for the bread and the miracles, could no longer accept his teachings about WHO he was and turned away. Where is the point where we say, I want this eternal life badly enough to forsake everything else and get on the narrow road, endure sufferings, temptations, rejections, trials, fears, frustrations, (my own sinful tendencies and repent of them) and attain to genuine faith/eternal life)?

    Matthew 7:13-15
    King James Version (KJV)
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Yes, I believe that those with genuine faith have their names written in the book of life, Abraham, for example, and it will never be blotted out.

    And Sharon…there are examples of people who began to follow Jesus for the wrong reasons(political agendas) and their “unbelief” was exposed and they lost out. Judas is a prime example.

    What I’m going to work on today is doing some study on this “genuine faith” that we talk about. Hebrews 11 gives some examples of those with genuine faith. James talks about the difference between genuine faith and a faithless faith.
    I’ll be back.

  • Carolyn wrote”

    Debs, Thomas…when is our faith genuine? At what point do we “manifest” the life of God. At what point do we prove like Abraham did, that our faith is genuine…(Hebrews 11)…….is it only at the end of life that such a detail CAN be proved?

    Jesus said:

    This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (Luk 19:9-10)

    Jesus is the One who seeks and He is also the one who finds but He can only find those who know and acknowledge that they are lost (deservedly on their way to hell). People who do not know and acknowledge that they are lost sinners do not need a Saviour. They are the ones who do not find the strait gate and the narrow way because they don’t want to be found of Him. Most people readily agree that they are sinners but very few acknowledge that they are lost sinners who deserve to be punished in hell for an eternity. They argue that a God of love would never do such an horrendous thing. Jesus never told people “I don’t want you to live in heaven with me for an eternity” like the Calvinists who believe He does not want the so-called non-elect to be in heaven with Him for an eternity. No, He said: “I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye CANNOT COME.” (John 8:21). That’s precisely why He also said:

    And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Mat 9:11-13)

    He also said:

    Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life. (John 5:39-40)

    To those who respond to the conviction by the Holy Spirit that they are lost sinners on their way to hell and deserve to be punished for all eternity because He is righteous in doing so, He says:

    Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden [with sin], and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

    He is saying: Exchange your yoke of sin with my yoke of righteousness and you will find eternal rest for your soul.

    The reason why I quoted all these verses, is to show you there is only one way to know when your faith is genuine.

    The first think is to know that we are/were lost sinners on our way to hell. This usually happens when you hear the Gospel and respond to it in faith (Romans 10:17). Those who refuse to acknowledge this don’t need a Saviour. They are the self-righteous ones who believe they can make it on their own through good works and their own merits. The most important thing is to respond to Jesus’ invitation to come to Him for your salvation. I usually tell people; “You need to go to Jesus with your sins and lost status and plead with Him to save you. And He will save you because He promised to do so.” Why do I say this? Because of the following. Most people think (and especially the Calvinists) that Paul was saved on his way to Damascus when he was thrown off his horse. None of this ever happened on his way to Damascus. Paul was saved in Ananias’ house in Damascus when he was urged an prodded to call on the Name of the Lord: “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

    It was not his baptism that washed away his sins, but his calling on the Name of the Lord to be washed in his blood for the remission and forgiveness of his sins (Hebrews 9:22). That is exactly why Paul wrote again: “for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13)

    This is how ANYONE can KNOW that his or her faith is genuine.

    I will answer the rest of your post some time later.

    God bless

  • Sharon

    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Carolyn here is what my grandfather used to preach, my brother still preaches and my dad taught. There are two different books to be judged by. The Book of Life. This is the book where the names of all people that ever lived. The second book is the Lambs Book of Life and are the names of all the saved folks.

    One day it will be time to open the books, to settle the account with God. This is NOT the judgment of the saved.
    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    When God judges the dead/lost he will see that their name is not in the Lambs Book of Life, meaning they do not know Jesus as Savior. When Jesus announces this, then the names of those lost people will be erased from the Book of Life. Remember the Book of life is where all of humanity is named. Their name will be erased as if they never existed and then they will be cast into hell.

    Remember also…these are two different books. One is names of every person that has ever lived. The second is the names of the saved and will never be blotted out.

    I do pray you find truth and the peace that comes in knowing Jesus as your Savior forever.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Carolyn

    Do you disagree with this verses below:

    When you are genuinely saved your name is written in to the book of Life and when it’s written in there it’s NEVER BLOTTED OUT.
    Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

    Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

    Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

    Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

    Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    Is Jesus lying when he says He will never blot your name out of the book of Life?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    >> Yes, I believe that those with genuine faith have their names written in the book of life, Abraham, for example, and it will never be blotted out.

    Woahh, you are not reading these scriptures properly.. ‘like Abraham’ you say, this verse is not about Abraham but about Clement AND OTHER PEOPLE in the New Testament.

    If you notice their names ARE written in the Lambs book of life WHILE THEY are still very much alive and kicking. So it shows that the moment you are genuinely saved and the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you, your name is written into the Lambs book of Life. You don’t have to work your whole life though PROVING yourself to God that you are saved to have your name written into the Lambs book of life in the end. This is what Catholics believes – that you have to work your whole life through proving yourself to God. Methodists and Presbyterians also believe you can lose your salvation. The truth of the matter is that the Holy Spirit seals you and convicts you every time you sin, and you grow and He fills you, but when you sin, He chastises you and brings you back to Him.

    READ THOSE VERSES AGAIN:

    Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names ARE in the book of life.”

    Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

    Carolyn, it breaks my heart to know that you don’t know if you have genuine faith or not. Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Do you love Jesus Christ with all you heart? Do you know for a fact that the Holy Spirit abides in you and teaches you and guides you? It is the Holy Spirit that MAKES YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE SECURE! He is the one who seals yous. Jesus does not lie, the Holy Spirit will never give you a wonderful feeling of security if it was all a big lie besides the scriptures back it up.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    sharon

    >> To say that an appended “confession” is essential to be added to the Apostle Peter’s confession above, or that Bible believer cannot be sure what they believe without an uninspired man-made short version of Truth, is blasphemy.

    and

    Millions of alleged Christians know their “Confession” better than they know the Word of God. For allowing heretics and hirelings to lead you into sub-Christian documents, as final authority, will get you damnation.

    Absolutely true.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Redeemed!! :)

  • Carolyn

    Last post here:

    I am not “desperately needing peace as Sharon has read into my comments. ALL of you are distorting my words.

    You have fed me a lot of denominational dogma from your own denominations. For example, Redeemed said, Our rate of growth in the faith depends much upon whether we are properly discipled or not. No it doesn’t. It depends on how good our very own soil is in accepting the Word planted in us.

    Thomas, you ran together some of my thoughts when you said: “In which Bible book do we find this verse: “Manifest the life of God in your life like Abraham did and you shall be saved”. and came up with a total distortion.

    Here’s my thought on Judas who walked with the Truth…Did Judas’ eternal life depend on God’s faithfulness alone? Did Abrahams faith depend only on God’s faithfulness or was he also responsible for his own obedience? How about Billy Graham? Will we see him in heaven, because he confessed and believed the gospel at one time. God has not changed. Our ability to rebel has not changed, even after initial conversion to the faith.

    Debs. …”to the end”. Jesus said it, not the Catholics. Mark 13:13
    Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

    Guys…stop. No more confusing arguments. Read the Word for yourselves and listen to it. Open your ears and eyes and do what it says. Apart from that, I can offer nothing more than what I’ve already said. I’m not angry, just done. And gone…till we meet on the other side.

  • Sharon

    I agree with you my friend. When visiting in the state of Tennessee at my best friends I noticed her church recites the “Apostles Creed.” I will NEVER EVER quote such a document. While I realize Catholic means “universal” I will not recite I believe in the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church, no way, never ever.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    sharon

    >> To say that an appended “confession” is essential to be added to the Apostle Peter’s confession above, or that Bible believer cannot be sure what they believe without an uninspired man-made short version of Truth, is blasphemy.

    and

    Millions of alleged Christians know their “Confession” better than they know the Word of God. For allowing heretics and hirelings to lead you into sub-Christian documents, as final authority, will get you damnation.

    Absolutely true.

  • Carolyn wrote

    Thomas, you ran together some of my thoughts when you said: “In which Bible book do we find this verse: “Manifest the life of God in your life like Abraham did and you shall be saved”. and came up with a total distortion.

    So everything I wrote to explain what it means how to be saved and how to know whether you have genuine faith, is a distortion? OK, please go ahead and believe with all your heart that you can and probably want to lose your salvation. To believe that Judas was saved and then lost his salvation is the real distortion here.

    You are twisting Scripture. Mark 13: 13 does not say that a saint can lose his salvation. Jesus refers to the tribulation saints who are going to refuse to take the mark of Antichrist. Most of them are going to be slaughtered but those who endure to the end of the tribulation will safely enter the Millennium age of peace on earth in their natural bodies.

    Carolyn said:

    Apart from that, I can offer nothing more than what I’ve already said. I’m not angry, just done. And gone . . . till we meet on the other side.

    I really don’t want to see you on the other side if you are going to lose your salvation.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Ok it’s clear you wont BELIEVE those verses. This is what the gospel is all about. BELIEVING. I would rather BELIEVE those verses than not believe them. This is called genuine FAITH.

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn, I took the time to comment because I cared, even tho’ I am heavy burdened at the moment and hard-pressed. You tossed aside my charity and grace extended to you and took a dig at one thing I said.That was hurtful dear sister. You did not address what I said about our Lord Jesus interceding for us in heaven. You are the one not facing the issue honestly. You did not address what I said about being born again – an irreversible event.

    Contrary to what Thomas said, I DO hope I see you in heaven and that you have genuine saving faith and only God can judge what is in your heart. And I do pray He opens your eyes on this important point of doctrine – and it is NOT dogma!

    I am sorry to see you go as you added many good comments in other threads. But dear sister, the eternal security of the believer is an important doctrine (although not essential for salvation) that is essential for a solid Christian walk. Christ died for ALL our sins, past present and future. We are to fight the good fight and be faithful, but it is not to earn our salvation – that is a settled issue.

    I know personally people who believe you can lose your salvation. They lack true peace and joy because they believe God holds the big eraser in His hand when a believer crosses that imaginary line of no return. You would not discuss backsliding because you didn’t know how to address it. It is not compatible with your belief. But it is in the Word.

    You keep mentioning Billy Graham. He has compromised from the very start, preaching one thing but practicing another.

    I wish you well, and I hope you will not leave with a closed mind. When we see each other in heaven, all will be revealed. Until then, blessings to you.

  • Redeemed wrote:

    Contrary to what Thomas said, I DO hope I see you in heaven and that you have genuine saving faith and only God can judge what is in your heart. And I do pray He opens your eyes on this important point of doctrine – and it is NOT dogma!

    I too truly hope to see Carolyn in heaven but she seems to be uncertain whether she is going to make it to heaven. Should she lose her salvation, which she believes is possible, then I don’t want to see her on the other side of heaven. Do you?

    The doctrine that a saint can lose his/her salvation is one of the most dangerous doctrines there is. It demeans the Name of Jesus Christ in its suggestion that HE is not a perfect Saviour. It suggests that He lied when He cried out with a loud voice “IT IS FINISHED.” Those who believe in conditional salvation say: “IT IS NOT FINISHED. IT IS ONLY PARTIALLY FINISHED. JESUS DID NOT DO A PERFECT WORK ON THE CROSS. I HAVE TO DO THE REST.” Roman Catholics believe the very same thing and that’s why they’ve invented purgatory.

  • Redeemed

    Thomas, don’t you believe that someone can be genuinely saved but be confused about whether one can lose their salvation?

    A friend of the Nazarene faith once said, “We believe you can lose your salvation, but we don’t recommend it.” I do believe he is saved and not that all those in the Nazarene denomination are unsaved. They are off base in their baptism mode as well, but are not dogmatic about it. It does tend to foster legalism, but I don’t think there is any intent to demean the Savior’s sacrifice.

    On the other hand I know people in the Church of Christ who believe in baptismal regeneration and that you can lose your salvation. That belief stems from a false gospel of works which is a deadly combination.

    I don’t think Carolyn’s eternal destiny depends upon whether or not she believes in eternal security, do you? I think she is confused on the issue, but I don’t question her salvation based on that. I didn’t get the impression that Carolyn thinks she is on the verge of losing her salvation, but that she has questions about those whom she thinks are saved but have fallen away such as Judas. She is just very confused on this issue and needs help sorting it out.

    She is not receptive at this time, but hopefully her eyes will be opened at some future time. We did our best and have to let it rest. And this will have to be my last word as I said, I can’t devote time right now and only got involved because I cared about Carolyn and her blindspot on this issue.

    Grace and peace to you with appreciation for all the good work you do for the Lord through your articles.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Redeemed

    Thomas never questioned her salvation, if you read carefully he stated that, if she believes she can lose her salvation, (and if she ever does – because she believes she can) then we don’t want to be meeting her on the other side, because she will be in hell; and we are not going in that direction. He is not questioning her salvation, just questioning her logic :)

  • Hi Redeemed

    You wrote:

    Thomas, don’t you believe that someone can be genuinely saved but be confused about whether one can lose their salvation?

    Where does confusion begin? We learn from Scripture that our God is not the author of confusion (instability) (1 Cor 14:33). Now, if He’s not the one who causes confusion, who then is it that does? I suppose it will have to be Satan because he’s the one who likes to tell lies. Of course I believe that people can be genuinely saved and still be confused about their salvation (It’s usually a problem young Christians encounter when so-called mature Christians tell them that they can lose their salvation). But then, as I explained, we must look for the source of this confusion, not with God but with Satan. Jesus never said or even implied that a saint can lose his/her salvation. Yes, there are some passages in Scripture that seem to suggest that saints can lose their salvation (Hebrews 6 for instance). The only way to test the validity of your interpretation of those passages is to weigh them against other passages in Scripture. That’s why I have been making such a fuss of John 10:28-30. I cannot for one moment imagine Jesus saying or teaching something that would contradict other scriptures in the Bible. If that were possible, we’d have to reject Him as a false prophet and most certainly as a Savior. Who wants a Savior who has no scruples and tells lies? This is precisely why I get so upset about the conditionally saved saints. They are attributing to Jesus what originated with Satan – damnable lies. Of course they would begin to doubt a Jesus who is not without sin (albeit a subtle liar) and begin to doubt his ability to save them to the uttermost. This is not the Jesus of the Bible, but another Jesus. Would the real Jesus of the Bible say something like ” And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” and then be a real turncoat and say “I’m sorry, that’s not what I meant. What I really said was that I have given them eternal life but it will only remain an eternity when they yourselves make it an eternity. Cause, you see, my eternity is contingent on their own efforts to sustain my eternity as an eternity and not merely as something temporal.

    You continued to say:

    I don’t think Carolyn’s eternal destiny depends upon whether or not she believes in eternal security, do you? I think she is confused on the issue, but I don’t question her salvation based on that. I didn’t get the impression that Carolyn thinks she is on the verge of losing her salvation, but that she has questions about those whom she thinks are saved but have fallen away such as Judas. She is just very confused on this issue and needs help sorting it out.

    No, Carolyn’s or anyone else’s eternal security does not depend on whether they believe in eternal security or not. They must depend on Jesus Christ for their eternal security and nothing else. But that’s the whole problem. They do not depend on Jesus for their eternal security. They depend on their own performance and track record. In fact, they are building their house on shifting sand and not the Rock of our salvation. No, of course Carolyn does not think that she is on the verge of losing her salvation. As I said, it is always the other person, someone like Judas, for instance. How anyone can believe that Judas was saved and then lost his salvation, is beyond me. Didn’t the Old Testament prophesy about this man? Surely, Carolyn must know these prophecies. If Carolyn needed help she would have remained here to seek help but she flipped her lid and left. I have grown weary of people who get mad at you and leave without really saying goodbye.

  • Redeemed

    Thomas, I just didn’t want your words to be miscontrued and add to the confusion. The intent was to give you opportunity to clarify.

    We know that regardless of what Carolyn believes about eternal security, if she is truly the Lord’s, she is secure no matter what she thinks.

    Thomas, we must be patient and gentle in our responses and longsuffering no matter how weary we are and I surely understand how frustrating it can be. We reasoned with Carolyn and she did not receive it, so we did our part. But let’s not throw her under the bus – perhaps something that was said will resonate with her and open her heart and mind and she may return and even thank us.

    Oftentimes when presenting the Gospel, it is not immediately accepted, but eventually is. And there are times when it is even rudely rejected but then someone else comes along and waters and the person ends up surrendering to Christ for their salvation.

    I think we have to be firm and clear, but season with grace – otherwise the person is offended and closes their mind. Whenever one presents the Gospel and is rejected, if we get upset at the person, it could slam the door shut. Soemtimes no matter what we say and how graciously we say it the other person still is offended, but that is not on our account.

    I pray that the things you and others stated and verses given will sink into Carolyn’s heart and she will do further study and come to know that truth.

    Now this really will be my last word as I am so hard pressed at the moment and my advanced years are catching up with me.

    Again, grace and peace to you brother for all your labors for the Lord and His truth.

  • Sharon

    Deb-ster take out my last comment above. I hit the wrong button and didn’t mean for it to post yet.

    Carolyn, if you are reading this. I’m sorry you were offended but to me it seems that you are very troubled on this issue of once saved always saved. I gave you no denominational dogma unless you consider the Baptist teachings I know of are based solely in Scripture.

    I will leave you one simple verse again that decides the answer or not if we can lose our salvation. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Don’t grieve, just believe. :o)

    To try to undo what God has said is futile. God the Holy Spirit says he has sealed us until the day of our redemption.

    When I was a little girl, the grocery store my mom went to gave stamps based on the amount you spent. She would wet the back of the stamps and put them in books. When she had the amount of stamps she needed to get a new toaster or what ever we would go to the “redemption center” and we would redeem our stamps and get the gift in full.

    Heaven is our “redemption center”. When we arrive via our death or the rapture our redemption will be complete and we get eternities gift in full. Until that day…God the Holy Spirit seals us.
    I do hope you will return. You are important, wanted here and no one was bashing you. We just believe the Book and when one has questions we’re supposed to help.

    Peace to you, His peace.

  • Thanks Redeemed

    I tried my level best to be gentle, kind, courteous and long-suffering. I’m sorry if I came across anything less than that. Not my intention. I’m not saying that Carolyn is not saved. Never said that. What I said is: Anyone who believes that he/she can lose their salvation is not trusting Jesus to take them through to glory. That’s precisely what happened to Israel. They saw and experienced his great salvation out of Egypt but when they stood at the brink of entering the Promised Land, they started to doubt God. The result? They could not enter into his rest. As long as one looks unto oneself to keep and maintain one’s salvation, their is no rest. They are not resting in the Lord. They are in turmoil because they are trusting themselves. “Am I going to make it?” . . . “At what stage is your faith genuine?” are all questions that point to a life that is not at rest in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    They themselves must do it. What does the Bible teach? “Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Php 1:4-6). HE is the One who began the good work (salvation) and only HE can complete it. If the good work (salvation) is a work only Jesus can do, then the maintenance of that salvation must of necessity also be a good work only HE can perform.

    I did not chase Carolyn or anyone else away. They themselves decided to leave because the questions I asked seemed to have made them a little too uneasy.

    For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. (Gal 1:10).

  • Redeemed

    Thomas, those called to expose false teaching rattle the cages of those who are entrenched in the comfort zone of their delusion. Sometimes it causes them to respond in anger and sometimes it causes them to run away or both. You are right, they made that choice.
    But we can hope that seeds planted will at some point germinate.

    I fear that there are a good many Christians who are not resting in Christ Jesus. They trusted Him for their conversion, but they don’t grasp what it means for them to trust Him for the duration. They confuse fighting the good fight and righteous actions with what has already been accomplished. They don’t fully understand God’s grace, His discipline and the rewards that await the faithful that have nothing to do whatsoever with their salvation. They fail to understand that it is a settled issue.

    Like I tried to tell Carolyn about being born again – irreversible event. She refused to discuss that or the fact that there exists the backslidden condition. But at some point I hope that it resonates with her.

    Please forgive me if I misjudged your remarks – but I am glad that we can have an honest discussion and clear up any possible misunderstanding of your intentions. That is what we are called to do for one another. I know I certainly need it as I have made statements that might be misunderstood as Sharon mentioned on another thread. She asked me and I was able to clear it up.

    Once again, please know I appreciate your articles and what you bring to DTW. It is not easy in stay the course in this growing state of apostasy that is so very discouraging. As I grow older, I find it more difficult and the longing for the return of our Saviour grows more intense every single day. But as long as He tarries, we must press on. I have reneged on saying this is my last word, but I didn’t want to leave you with a negative, but rather with an exhortation and encouragement. May the Lord grant both you and Deborah strength to carry on.

  • Hi Redeemed

    I sincerely appreciate your comments and I thank you for your kind words.

    Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2)

  • Sharon

    Redeemed, How are you dear Sister in Christ? I saw where you spoke of a heavy burden. I prayed for you, the grace to endure and that the outcome be what our Lord wills for your life. We have a Savior who is touched with our infirmities. I find comfort knowing that Jesus really does understand my physical pain, my emotional pain and my loneliness. Who ever suffered more than He did? Who was more emotionally torn when he prayed Not my will but thine? Who was ever more lonely when the Father had to turn away whe Jesus became sin for us? That thought just gave me goose bumps on my arms.

    Have a blessed weekend.

    Love in Christ Forever,
    Sharon

  • Redeemed

    Sharon, thank you for caring and praying. In weakness we see His strength that helps us to find a way to press on even if it is crawling. I apologize for calling attention to myself and my situation but wanted to provide a reason for my inability to get involved in comments and didn’t want to give the impression I am upset or have lost interest. Neither is the case. I still like to check in and read the comments and articles when I can. Thank you again and blessings to you.

  • Sharon

    Never apologize for sharing a bit about your burdens. How do we know how to pray for someone if they don’t tell even a tiny bit. Sometimes burdens overwhelm us. King David would often say, why is my soul disquieted within me, hope thou in God. Rest in His great love. God is love and has so very much love for ALL of mankind and yet his love is small enough to meet us individually.

    Be Blessed.

    Redeemed wrote:

    Sharon, thank you for caring and praying. In weakness we see His strength that helps us to find a way to press on even if it is crawling. I apologize for calling attention to myself and my situation but wanted to provide a reason for my inability to get involved in comments and didn’t want to give the impression I am upset or have lost interest. Neither is the case. I still like to check in and read the comments and articles when I can. Thank you again and blessings to you.

Leave a Reply

  

  

  

You can use these HTML tags

<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>