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Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler – Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.

JacobPrasch ChuckMissler Nephilim Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.In practically every video of Jacob Prasch’ and in practically every book he writes the chances of Prasch mentioning the disturbing false teaching of the ‘demonic’ Nephilim  is almost certain.   Jacob Prasch teaches the exact same teaching as Chuck Missler (who just happens to be a friend of his) – that demons came down and had sexual relations with woman on earth and produced the demonic Nephilim.

The thing is, is this is false teaching, it is not true and in practically each and every video, conference and book Jacob Prasch tells us ‘his opinion’  over and over and over again, brainwashing an unsuspecting audience.  Why does he not examine the scriptures to find the truth of the matter?  What is so important about this false Nephilim teaching that he must keep mentioning it?  And no one bothers to question him because they are all too scared for fear of the backlash.  (See bottom of article regarding backlash by Jacob Prasch).  Well here at DTW, we are not scared.  We will ask Jacob Prach why he preaches this doctrine, what is his aim?

Now we understand that Jacob Prasch used Midrash, to help him come to his conclusions, and we know that Midrash is EXTRA BIBLICAL!  (See this article: Moriel Ministries and MIDRASH)

Lets have a look and see what Jacob Prasch has to say regarding the Nephilim.  My notes are in GREEN…

—————

“The Future History of the Church, Part 1″

by James Jacob Prasch

A typological and midrashic examination of what will happen in the future of the church by seeing how the past history of the church is recapitulated eschatologically; how past events happen again in the Last Days. What to expect, and what to prepare for.  [Emphasis added]

The Nephilim Then and Now

When I was a young Christian, I was a hippie who got saved out of the drug culture. We used to witness eight hours a day sometimes because we thought Jesus was coming next week, so what did anything else matter? I met so many people who said their beliefs were based on gods on other planets, UFOs and such.

When Jimmy Carter became President of the United States, he declassified something called The Blue Report that was put together by the American Air Force, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and the Central Intelligence Agency. It was not all declassified, but Carter declassified a major portion of it. They found no evidence from exobiology for extraterrestrial life, but they had innumerable cases of people using parapsychology to conjure up extraterrestrial phenomena; there were even cultists who could make these things appear. Similar studies were done in Great Britain. Reading the Blue Report can be quite frightening. There is no scientific basis for belief in extraterrestrials, but a firmly recorded basis in the occult. Uri Geller, the Israeli spoon-bender, said that there were people on other planets trying to persuade him to be the Messiah.

The Nephilim, the fallen ones, are strange characters in Genesis. It would appear that they survived the Flood; whether the Nephilim who were in the land of Canaan when the Jews came to it are a different Nephilim from the ones who were spoken of before the flood is an issue over which theologians are divided; no one is really certain. Some say they are the same ones, some say they’re different. If they are the same, it would mean they had survived the deluge somehow. Nonetheless, these things are “the fallen ones”, and we’re told in Scripture that they copulated with human women.  [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  No one is divided over this issue, only false teachers who want to tickle the ears of their followers want to divide the truth into error.  Please read below under the heading of  The Truth about the Sons of God, the Daughters of Men and the Nephilim to understand the Biblical truth of the Nephilim.]

Now, most of the popular “deliverance ministry” going around today is a lot of Ghostbusters-type nonsense with no Scriptural basis; I would seriously question whether most of these people could handle real demon possession if it ever faced them – it’s no joke. But I once cast a demon out of a black necromancer who was having sexual relations with demons.

There was a witch in England on television in America, who gave her testimony when she got saved and told of having intercourse with a devil; people witnessed this. This kind of activity was around in the days of Noah, and it will be around again in the Last Days. Somehow demonoids – they were virtual monsters – will exist on the earth again, as they did in Noah’s day. We will see an increase in occult activity, but particularly in this kind of high Satanism; even to the point of people having relations with demons. It already goes on, but it’s going to increase.  [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  To compare a testimony of someone who had sexual relations with the devil to that of Genesis 6 is pure speculation.  First note that people today who have relations with demons do not fall pregnant - never have and never will.  Will we see an increase in demonic activity, yes, but to say that we will see a rise of the Nephilim again in the end times as back in the days of Noah is not the truth.]

Man is utterly fallen. I studied science in university, and I have no problem with science. However, it remains that man is fallen. So while I have no problem with science, I know what happens when you put science into the hands of fallen man. It is easy to visualize the kinds of atrocities that can be accomplished with biogenetic engineering; people can eventually take DNA, clone it, and re-create Josef Stalin or a whole race of Josef Stalins. There are things happening right now in genetics that when I studied biology in university would have seemed like science fiction; they no longer are.

I have no doubt I am not teaching this doctrinally, this is my own opinion – that the world is being set up for a huge spiritual seduction in which UFOs and extraterrestrials along with other things of this type will play a role. It can be seen in David Bowie’s albums and in Stephen Spielberg’s movies, for example. The Bible talks about “the fallen ones”; the ones who fell from heaven, the Nephilim. The cosmos needs to be cleansed. I am quite convinced that extraterrestrial phenomena will be a large part of the spiritual seduction that is on its way. I am also quite afraid of the developments in biogenetic engineering – not the developments themselves, but seeing that kind of technology in the hands of fallen man. When combined with the occult, which scientology and other of these types of groups are already doing, the ramifications are terrible. Somehow, there was a physical manifestation of demons in the days of Noah; that will recur in some way in the Last Days before the Return of Jesus. I won’t speculate on it further, but I do see the way things are heading. This is the kind of world that we have to prepare our children to live in; think about that and then tell me you don’t believe in Christian school!   [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  First Jacob Prasch says he has no doubt, but then goes on to tell you that this is NOT BIBLICAL DOCTRINE, it’s only HIS OPINION.  If it’s his opinion, then why oh why is he preaching his opinion as if it were doctrine!  Jacob Prasch preaches this Nephilim teaching on every video, practically ever conference, and mentions it in practically every book he writes.  Why?  Why is he so enthusiastic on getting this lie out to the people?  So they can run over to Chuck Missler’s website and be ensnared in the trap that has been set up for them there?  He says “the fallen ones” maning “those who fell from heaven”, instead it actually means “apostates”, it is a passive form of  “ones who have fallen”. “The cosmos needs to be cleansed” he says?  What a load of nonsense.  

He says we have to prepare our children to live in a world with demon monsters walking around before Jesus returns (presumably before the rapture).  No my dear readers, prepare you and your children for a lot worse;  for men (who don’t look like monsters at all), but who come to you as wolves in sheep’s clothing preaching doctrines contrary to scripture leading you and your children to hell.  

Yes there will be an increase in demonic activity in the atmosphere, it is increasing daily as Satan’s time nears an end and people’s minds are caught up in doctrines of demons – Christianity no longer exists, Paganism is now the religion of choice,  just as it was in the Days of Noah – wickedness abounds and will increase to unprecedented proportions.  Just as it was in the Days of Noah and before that, there were extremely wicked people ruling, like we have today; family’s of statue (Rockerfellers, etc) dictating Satan’s way forward.

Source: (link no longer online)

——–

Nephilim Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.The Truth about the Sons of God, the Daughters of Men and the Nephilim

Are the Nephilim demonic monsters or are they not? The reason I am so passionate about the answer to this question is because of the rise in interest in the supernatural, i.e, aliens, trans-humanism etc.  There are stories running abound that during the end-times demons will be free to do as they please on earth, producing offspring like the Nephilim.  The bible is very clear that we are to not let our minds be captured by occult imagination because when human minds get hold of unbiblical ideas it runs free and causes all sorts of havoc.

Note:  Articles posted by DTW are not an endorsement of the author, their website, ministry or any links therein. Readers are cautioned to use discernment at all times and test everything by the Word of God.  DTW endorses this below article only.

Nephilim

By Pastor Anton Bosch – www.antonbosch.org – Permission received by Anton Bosch to re-publish his article.  

The Hebrew word Nephilim is translated “giants” in the Old Testament. It only appears twice in Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33.  A whole series of doctrines have been built around this word, in spite of the fact that the word only appears rarely. These doctrines on the Nephilim are based on Genesis 6:1-4. (It must be noted that most speculators lean very heavily on extra-biblical writings for most of their information.) The theories can basically be summed up as follows:

Demons / angels (sons of God) had illicit relationships with women (the daughters of men) and these perverted relations produced genetically mutated beings known as Nephilim (giants). God then imprisoned some of the angles who did this and in order to purify the bloodline of man God brought on the Flood. Through genetic engineering these Nephilim will be resurrected, one of which will be the Antichrist[i]. To these people, the Nephilim are also connected to so-called extra-terrestrial forms of life.

Since these theories are gaining ground and a number of books have been published based on this hypothesis, it is necessary to examine Genesis 6 again and see what exactly it teaches. We will discover that the proponents of these theories break every principle of hermeneutics. Here is the text:

“Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown”. (Genesis 6:1-4)

Sons of God

The first problem revolves around who in the passage are the “sons of God”. Some make the connection with Job 1:6; 2:1. “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.” (Job 1:6). It is obvious, and not contested, that the “sons of God” in Job were angels. But does that mean that this term in Genesis 6:2 also refers to angels?

First, the normal meaning of “sons of God” is “believers”. “But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12). Job 1:6 (a poetic book) is the only place where angels are called “sons of God”. It is logical and reasonable therefore that the normal meaning be attached to the term here, rather than the exception, as found in Job, unless there were something in the text that made a connection between Genesis 6 and Job 1 – which is absent.

Second Jesus explicitly said that “in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30) (See also Luke 20:34-36). Therefore in Jesus’ own words, angels are asexual and do not procreate.

So here is the problem. Genesis is obscure about who had the relations. Jesus said angels do not have relations. So either Jesus was mistaken or the “sons of God” were not angels. You choose! It is really as simple as that – there are no other options.

Some try to get around this by saying that the angels inhabited (possessed) human bodies to do this. That sounds good. But here is the question: A Christian man has the Holy Spirit in him. When that man produces a child by his wife, what is the child? God or man? Clearly, it is a man. There are multitudes of people in the world who are demon possessed and who procreate. What do they produce? Human babies or mutants? Obviously human babies. So why should Genesis 6 be any different. If demons entered into men to produce offspring the children would be human, and only human.

One of the principles of hermeneutics is that the Old Testament is interpreted in the light of the New Testament and not the other way round. In order to say that the “sons of God” in Genesis 6 are angels (or demons) we must discard the light of the NT and that should never happen.

The nature of the relationships

The next problem is that it is claimed that the angels had illicit relations with women. Yet the text is very clear: “they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose” (Genesis 6:2b). The phrase “took wives for themselves” only, and always, means marriage. It never refers to casual, illicit or adulterous relationships. (See Genesis 11:29 &Ruth 1:4). To suggest otherwise is reading into the text that which is simply not there.

Giants

The theory goes that the giants were the product of these illicit relationships. We have shown that the text does not refer to illicit relationships and that the fathers could not be angels.

Genesis 6:4, again is very clear: “There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them.”  Notice that it says there were giants (fact number 1) and afterwards the sons of God came into… (fact number 2). There is NO connection between the fact that there were giants and the fact that people had children.

It is exactly like me saying: “There is milk in the supermarket and eggs are $1.50 a dozen” Milk has no effect on the price, or even the existence, of eggs and the other way around. I am simply stating two facts that describe things about food in the supermarket.

In Genesis 6 Moses is describing the state of the world before the flood. He makes no connection between the Nephilim and the sons of God and daughters of men. If the sentence had been reversed as follows: “The sons of God came into the daughters of men and they bore Nephilim” then you could postulate some theory about the nature of this process. But the text does not give us any room to connect the Nephilim with these marriages.

Genesis 6:4 does say that the children that were produced “were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown”. “Mighty men” is a term which is used 154 times in the OT and simply refers to powerful men, either physically or politically. Just like there are many mighty men today and some are men of God and others are worldly and unsaved, so there were mighty men in those days, of which Noah was one.

“Men of old” also holds no mystique, these were simply the heroes of bygone days.

“Men of renown” is also used in Numbers 16:2 and Ezekiel 23:23. These are famous men, or well-known men. The Hebrew term literally means “men with a name” meaning they had “made a name” for themselves.

The descendants of these relationships were not monsters, mutants, or anything extraordinary. Some were ordinary people and some were powerful, some were little known and others had made a name for themselves. Genesis 6:5 (the next verse) goes on to describe these people as wicked and worthy of God’s judgment.

Furthermore, the translation of the word Nephilimin Genesis 6:4 as “giants” is very arbitrary. There are many other possible ways this word could be translated here: “Bullies”, “mighty ones” or “tyrants”.  At least one dictionary states that the Nephilim in Genesis and in Numbers were two different peoples[ii]. Once again, we cannot build an entire doctrine on a word which we cannot translate or explain with any measure of certainty.

Genesis 6:4 is simply a description of life before the flood and not a commentary on mysterious genetic mutant life forms. Jesus obviously has this verse in mind when he says: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (Matthew 24:37-39) (note the reference to marriage in both verses).

One of the most important principles of hermeneutics is that the verse has to be read in its context. The context is clear, that life was going on as usual, people were becoming more and more self-absorbed and sinful but judgment was coming. This is the same point Jesus was making in Matthew 24 – people will be self-absorbed and fixated on every-day life and will not be ready for His coming.

The cause of the Flood

Those who speculate about the Nephilim, connect them with the reason for the Flood. Once again, there is no connection there. Genesis 6 describes life on earth. Yes, there were Nephilim, but more significantly, people were marrying and having children and becoming more wicked. Genesis 6:5-6 cannot be clearer. God’s judgment fell because of the wickedness of man. This had absolutely nothing to do with demons, angels or mutants. Look at these verses again: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”(Genesis 6:5-7).

If the flood had anything to do with anything other than man’s sinfulness, either Moses or Jesus would have said something in that regard, but both are silent about demons, angels and mutants. The flood had nothing to do with clearing the gene pool. It was all about clearing the earth of sinful and wicked people. Even Sunday school children should be able to tell you that.

If the flood had anything to do with God wanting to destroy the giants because they were “contaminated seed” or to purge the gene pool then, Noah and his sons should have been destroyed also. Noah and his sons carried the gene from which giants were formed. This is obvious since giants (Nephilim) are born after the flood and were present in the Land when the spies were sent to scout out the land (Numbers 13:33). These giants were descendants of Noah since all of humankind after the flood descended from Noah.

Extra-biblical evidence

These speculators quote the Book of Enoch (and other apocryphal books) in support of their ideas as though they are Scripture. Yet, Enoch and the rest of the Apocrypha are not part of the canon of Scripture for obvious reasons – they are not, and have never been regarded as inspired except by apostate churches and false teachers.

Once again they break one of the fundamentals of Evangelical and Reformed hermeneutics: We hold only to Scripture and do not add, nor subtract from it (Revelation 22:18; Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32). It is especially reprehensible to formulate an entire doctrine on extra-biblical evidence as these people are doing.

The fact is that there is overwhelming evidence in very old writings that the Hebrew sages never regarded the “sons of God” as angels or demons. But we dare not use that as evidence lest we sink to the same level as these speculators.

Jude 6 is quoted in support of the theories. This verse says:

 “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6).

Once again, there is absolutely nothing in the verse, or the context, that connects it with Genesis 6. There is nothing in the context that gives rise to understand that “not keep(ing) their proper domain” has anything to do with having relations with women. These angels sinned by overstepping their boundaries – that is evident. But what those boundaries were can be any of a hundred things. We just cannot draw connection between Genesis 6 and Jude 6, except that the chapter number is the same as the verse number!

2 Peter 2:4-5

Verse 4 is similar to Jude 6: “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly.” (2 Peter 2:4-5).

To those who pluck verses out of their context there appears to be a connection between the sinning angels and the flood. But look at the context:

2Peter 2:1-3 There were, and will be, false teachers and they will “bring upon themselves swift destruction”.

2Peter 2:4 Angels sinned and God “reserved them for judgment

2Peter 2:5 The ancient world sinned and God judged them by the flood but spared Noah

2Peter 2:6-8 Sodom and Gomorrah sinned and God judged them but spared Lot

2Peter 2:9 Therefore in the future, the Lord will judge the unjust and save the godly.

The angels and the pre-flood world are simply two of four examples that Peter quotes to show that God will punish sin. The connections between the sinning angels and the flood are the same connection with false teachers and Sodom – the connections have nothing to do with gene mutation but is all about sin and the consequences thereof.

Conclusion

The purpose of this brief article is not to provide answers to all the questions that surround Genesis 6. In fact, we do not have all the answers and those who claim they have a full and detailed explanation for these verses are speculating. The point of the text in Genesis 6, and 2Peter 2 is to warn that God will not tolerate sin and will judge it.

But what we are certain of is that the theories about angels producing mutant life forms are not Biblical and that the conclusions derived from this theory are fictional, at best.

“…charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith”. (1 Timothy 1:3-4).

“But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness.”(1 Timothy 4:7).

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

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[i] This is a very brief and highly sanitized summary of some very extreme and bizarre teachings. But it must also be noted that those who hold to these teachings differ greatly amongst themselves as to how far they take their conclusions.

[ii]Thomas, R. L. (1998). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition. Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc.

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More important notes:

1)  David and Goliath – 

TheGreatKhali Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.

Yes, there were giants but not in the sense of the pictures of Jack and the beanstalk. Goliath was anywhere between 6’9” to 10′ tall.  The oldest manuscripts — the Dead Sea Scrolls text of Samuel, the first-century historian Josephus, and the fourth century Septuagint manuscripts — all give his height as “four cubits and a span”, about six feet, nine inches tall (two meters), but later manuscripts have it as “six cubits and a span,” which would make him almost ten feet tall (three meters). The average height of the LA Lakers basketball team is 6’4″, with a few of them at 6’9″.  
Andre the Giant from the WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment) stood at 7’4″ while the Great Khali currently stands at 7’1″.  [Note that DTW has never referred to the dead-sea scrolls for information, but to help explain Goliath in this instance, it is very necessary.]
Saul stood “head-and-shoulders” above the rest of the people and David (it seems) could fit into his armour. David appears extra small to Goliath because he was just a youth when he fought and killed Goliath. However when David grew up he was able to use Goliath’s sword (1 Sam 21). So as adults David and Saul were almost as big as Goliath! – now that’s a revolutionary thought!

The same goes for the Canaanites, they were giant men, but not from another world.  There is no possible way that these giants were of an extraterrestrial nature because the bible does not say so – the bible does say there were giants before the flood and their DNA must have been in Noah because the DNA is carried forward to beyond the flood. We need to remain silent on the things the Bible is silent on – we can’t go around and make wild speculations as many well known pastors are doing.  To again speculate that angels came down again to have relations with human women to produce more giants after the flood is just nonsense.

2)  Those giant skeletons they supposedly found in Greece and Middle East -

Nephilim Image5 Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times. Nephilim Image2 Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.
Nephilim Image3 Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times. Nephilim Image4 Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.

THERE’S A good reason we haven’t heard about this epic discovery in the New York TimesScientific American, or any other legitimate publication, and that is that these photos, like the one circulating since 2004 purporting to show a giant skeleton found in the Middle East, are fakes.

As if it weren’t preposterous enough to claim that one 15-foot-tall fossilized human skeleton had turned up without media fanfare, we’re asked to believe that archaeologists recently dug up four of them in a single location (Greece). In point of fact, each of the photos appears to have been taken at a different time and place.

So far I’ve only been able to locate the original of one of them, but it serves as clear proof that Photoshopping took place. Image #4 was created by inserting an outsized human skull into a photo of a 1993 University of Chicago dinosaur dig in Niger, Africa (see the original here). If you look at a blow-up of the doctored image, the skull appears flattened and unnatural (and one of the workers actually appears to be standing on it!).

Moreover, the same cut-and-pasted skull was used to create image #2 (see side-by-side comparison). A blow-up of image #2 with brightness and contrast enhanced reveals unnaturally dark “shadows” around the skull. The skull in Image #3 is marked by incongruously bright highlights on the teeth and around the edges of the gaping temple wound. And in image #5 the shadows coming off the skeleton fall more or less toward the camera, while the worker’s shadow falls due left, suggesting that elements of two different photos were combined.

Finally, despite frequent references to “giants” in ancient mythology and English translations of the Bible, there is no generally accepted scientific or historical evidence that such beings ever actually existed (unless you consider the Weekly World News a reliable source).

GreenArrow1 Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.  NB!! See here for more giant skeletons and why they are a hoax as well:  http://yowcrooks.blogspot.com/2008/12/giant-skeleton-hoax.html

3)  A greater understanding of Jude 5-10:

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6)

Jude 6 is quoted in support of their theories connecting it to Genesis 6 that angels came down and had relations with women. Once again, there is absolutely nothing in the verse, or the context, that connects it with Genesis 6. There is nothing in the context that gives rise to understand that “not keep(ing) their proper domain” has anything to do with having relations with women. These angels sinned by overstepping their boundaries – that is evident. But what those boundaries were can be any of a hundred things. We just cannot draw connection between Genesis 6 and Jude 6, except that the chapter number is the same as the verse number!

To explain Jude 5 – 8 properly, it contains a number of separate examples of God judging  sin. Just like paprables where there is a central truth and the only connection between the parables is that truth (e.g. That which was lost is found: lost coin, lost sheep, lost son).  Here there are four examples showing the same truth that God judges sin. The examples are: 1) Israel’s unbelief in not crossing into the land, 2) angels who did not keep their proper domain, 3) Sodom and Gomorrah’s sexual sin and 4) false teachers.
 
If there is a sexual connection between Sodom and the angels (the angels sinned in a sexual way) then there must also be a connection between Sodom and Israel and between Israel and the angels. But that is not the link here.  The link is SIN. In the case of Israel it is unbelief (Hebrews 3 & 4), in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah it is homosexuality and in the case of the angels it was rebellion when Satan was cast down from heaven and 1/3 of the angels followed.
 
Note that the text must be read in its context and we cannot simply make connections and draw conclusions that are not there. Now concerning the statement “who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode”. People connect that to Sodom and say that this means angels had relations with women. But we need to examine the statement carefully. The first word “proper domain” according to Thayer means:
 
- Original: ἀρχή
– Transliteration: Arche
– Phonetic: ar-khay’
- Definition:
1.  beginning, origin
2.  the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3.  that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4.  the extremity of a thing
a.  of the corners of a sail
5.  the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
a.  of angels and demons
 
Note the word is “Arche” from which we get “arch-enemy”, “arch-rival” etc. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation but with primacy, authority etc. The second is “abode”. This is also a very common word: οἰκητήριον (oiketerion) which simply means house, habitation or abode.The verse then teaches that the angels did not remain in their proper authority and left their place. This could be construed to mean they had relations with the daughters of men. But it forces and construes a meaning that is NOT obvious to the sentence.
 
A more natural interpretation is that the angels rebelled against God’s authority at the very beginning when Satan was cast out of heaven and left their place in the order and hierarchy of God. The English Standard version (ESV) is one of the best translations available. The ESV has the verse as follows:  ”And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day-
“This is supported by June 9-10 which speaks about false preachers who do not know their proper place when dealing with the Devil and demons (and yes, Satan is a “dignitary”  – powerful person ).
 
What we do not know is why some of these angels (demons) were chained in the “abyss” and others were left to roam the earth. We can only surmise that some sinned more grievously than others. But it also seems that the Lord can (and probably does) throw more of them into the abyss for whatever reason:
 
Luke 8:30-32   “30 Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.  32 Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them..”
 
Now for Jude 7:  The cities around them refers to Admah and Zeboim:

Deuteronomy 29:23  ”And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:”

Hosea 11:8  ”How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.”

The words “similar manner to these” can only refer to the most recently mentioned subjects – the cities. There is no way, at all that it can refer to the Angels. No language works like that.

When we say “Tom went to church and John went to the mall and Jerry went to the beach and he got sunburned.” The “he” can only refer to the most recent subject – Jerry.

So the meaning is very clear and obvious that Sodom and Gomorrah gave themselves over to immorality and Admah and Zeboim did likewise. There is no other possibility.

The problem here is that it all begins with a bad exegesis is Genesis 6. If you read Genesis 6 to mean that Angels had relations with women (and reject the words of Jesus that they cannot) then you have to find further support. Once you have jumped to that conclusion, it is easy to misread and misinterpret Jude 6 & Jude 7. But if you do not make assumptions about relations between angels and women, then there is no way you can read that into Jude. So, you have to force the meaning of Gen 6 and then you have to force the meaning of Jude 6 to come to a conclusion.

source:  http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/09/06/the-truth-about-the-sons-of-god-the-daughters-of-men-and-the-nephilim/

—————————————————

ReturnofTheNephilim Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.Some false teaching produced by Chuck Missler, see my notes in GREEN

‘And Also After That':

The Return of the Nephilim?

by Chuck Missler - September 1997 Personal Update NewsJournal.

In the last article, “Mischievous Angels or Sethites?” we explored the importance of understanding Genesis 6. The straightforward presentation of the text seems to clearly portray a strange union of fallen angels with women to produce a hybrid race called the “Nephilim,” or fallen ones.  [Emphasis added]

[DTW NOTE:  The straightforward presentation of the text clearly states that it was the marriages of the seed of godly Seth with the daughters of ungodly Cain. Not angels with women.]

We enumerated the reasons we accept the “angel” view and why the liberal “Sethite” view is inadequate.

[DTW note:  Oh so you do not accept the Sethite view simply because then you can't make up a whole new false doctrine.]

Far beyond simply a misunderstanding of the forthright presentation of the text, the “Sethite” view also obscures apprehension of the prophetic Scriptures.

Post-Flood Occurrences

Regarding the Nephilim, Genesis 6:4 also includes the haunting phrase, “…and also after that….” Apparently these strange events were not confined just to the period before the Flood.  [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  Nothing haunting about it, the fact is people turned wickedly evil again after the flood.]

We find that there seems to be some recurrence of those things which resulted in unusual “giants” appearing in subsequent periods later in the Old Testament narrative, specifically the giant-races of Canaan.    [Emphasis added]

There were a number of tribes such as the Rephaim, the Emim, the Horim, and Zamsummim, that were giants.1 The kingdom of Og, the King of Bashan, was the “land of the giants.”2 Later, we also find Arba,3 Anak, and his seven sons (the “Anakim”) also as giants, along with the famed Goliath4 and his four brothers.5    

[DTW note:  Unusual giants, yes, but not Nephilim.  None of the verses state that the tribes of Rephaim, Emim, Horim and Zamsummin were Nephilim.  King Og was a giant, Arba was a giant, Anak and his seven sons were also Giants and so was Goliath and his 4 brothers.  What is a giant?  A very big person.  Not a demonic offspring.  Moses was big enough himself that he could smite them and cast giants out of their own land.  (Joshua 13:12)  "All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out."]

When God had revealed to Abraham that the land of Canaan was to be given to him, Satan had over 400 years to plant his “mine field” of Nephilim!6

[DTW note:  Again he is surmising and reading into the scripture what is NOT THERE.  

Genesis 15:13;  13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years

All this means is that the Israelites are going a land that belongs to them, but they will for 400 hundred years have to serve the current inhabitants of the land.  So they will be a stranger in their own land.  No where does it say anything about Nephilim.]

When Moses sent his twelve spies to reconnoiter the Land of Canaan, they came back with the report of giants in the land.7 (The term used was Nephilim.) Their fear of those terrifying creatures resulted in their being relegated to wandering in the wilderness for 38 years.

[DTW note:   No the term Nephilim was NOT USED.  My goodness.  Lets have a look at the verse.

Below we are looking at the KJV 1611 translation and not some other funky version like Chuck Misslers Blue letter bible which puts in words that should not be there.

Numbers 13:33  "And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."

The name Anak is derived from the son of Arba who was a great man among the Arabians (Jos 15:14) who possibly got his title because he used to wear a chain or splendid collar around his neck.    The word "giant" here in the above scripture actually referes to STATURE ( See Genesis 6:4).  The Anakims were more than likely a very distinguished family, or a chosen group of warriors, selected for their extraordinary size.  

When the Israelites came back to report to Moses they exaggerated the physical strength of the Canaanites.  "We were in our own sight as grasshoppers" is based on 'strong Orientalism', meaning this is how they would described the situation in their manner, their mannerism.]

When Joshua and the nation Israel later entered the land of Canaan, they were instructed to wipe out every man, woman and child of certain tribes.8 That strikes us as disturbingly severe. It would seem that in the Land of Canaan, there again was a “gene pool problem.”   [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  No, it's not a 'gene pool problem', but a 'wickedness of mankind problem'.  The Canaanites were idolaters of the worst kind, enslaved to the most horrible sins.  God had enough; that the righteous judgment of God might sweep them away by the sword, this included famines and pestilences. There was however mercy shown, that while judgment was being employed by sword as punishment against one place, time was afforded for others at other places to repent.  Do you think God would offer demonic offspring time to repent? A genepool that has 'lost it's soul' through demonic intercourse time to repent?   No.  Because this gene pool/demonic offspring story is a load of nonsense. ]

These Rephaim, Nephilim, and others seem to have been established as an advance guard to obstruct Israel’s possession of the Promised Land. Was this also a stratagem of Satan?   [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  No Chuck Missler, you have an active imagination.  No demonic beings, no obstruction, just wicked people that had the opportunity to repent, other wise God would smite them down with the sword, which he did because of their wicked ways.]

The Days of Noah

Perhaps the most direct prophetic reference involving these things was the peculiar warning of our Lord Jesus Himself:  And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.   [Emphasis added]

Luke 17:26

What does that mean? He also warned:

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.    [Emphasis added]

Luke 21:25,26 (emphasis added)

(The late Walter Martin loved to include a “flying saucer” gesture with his hand when quoting this verse!)

Is it possible that the UFOs – and their occupants – are part of an end-time scenario?

[DTW note:  Lets have a look at that verse properly shall we.  

Luke 21:25-26 – Amplified Bible (AMP)  25 And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth [there will be] distress (trouble and anguish) of nations in bewilderment and perplexity without resources, left wanting, embarrassed, in doubt, not knowing which way to turn] at the roaring (the echo) of the tossing of the sea,   26 Men swooning away or expiring with fear and dread and apprehension and expectation of the things that are coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken and caused to totter

Chuck Missler mis-reads the verse.  If we look at the Amplified bible it helps us explain it better. Men are fearful and apprehensive and their expectation is dread because they do not know what kinds of things going to come onto the world.  And ‘things’ in this verse is not ‘aliens or demons’.  There is a semicolon in the verse, and after this semicolon it tells us these things are.  The powers of the heavens will be shaken and caused to totter.]

The Miry Clay of Daniel 2

The famous dream of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel Chapter 2 appears to lay out all of Gentile history until God ultimately intervenes and sets up His own kingdom.

The various metals which make up the image in the dream are well known to serious students of prophecy.9> Even our common expression, “the idol has feet of clay,” comes to us from this classic passage.

But what is represented by the “miry clay” in this image? It seems to be strangely mixed-but not completely-with the iron in the dream. The term “miry clay” refers to clay made from dust,10 a Biblical idiom which suggests death.11 )

When Daniel interprets this for us he makes an especially provocative allusion in verse 43:

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.    [Emphasis added]

Daniel 2:43

As he switches to a personal pronoun, they, “shall mingle themselves with the seed of men…”  This is extremely suggestive when viewed in light of the warning of our Lord in Luke 17:26, ostensibly directing us to look more closely at Genesis 6.

Just what (or who) are “mingling with the seed of men?” These would seem to refer to some beings who are not the seed of men themselves!

Could this be a hint of a return to the mischief of Genesis 6? It staggers the mind to consider the potential significance of Daniel’s passage and its implications for the future global governance.

Are these “aliens” so prolific that they constitute a political constituency?

Will there be UFO incidents as part of a carefully orchestrated program to lead us toward a political agenda? Or has it started already? Are the UFOs, and the increasingly widespread abductions, part of the preparations for this scenario?

[DTW note:  No Mr Missler.  Again you twist scritpure to suit your own purposes.  Let’s look at this verse properly shall we…

Daniel 2:43  Amplified Bible (AMP)  43 And as you saw the iron mixed with miry and earthen clay, so they shall mingle themselves in the seed of men [in marriage bonds]; but they will not hold together [for two such elements or ideologies can never harmonize], even as iron does not mingle itself with clay.

The last re-establishment of the Roman Empire is described as iron mixed with miry clay, which is nothing but brittle pottery.  This speaks of the attempted UNION between imperialism and democracy.  In the end this Roman Empire so easily shattered when Jesus Christ returns.]

UFO Abductions?

There seems to be a growing concern within the psychiatric community from the strange (and far too frequent) reports from people who claim to have been “abducted” by the occupants of UFOs. These reports are too bizarre to accept, and yet too frequent-and consistent-to ignore. What is particularly disturbing is the estimate from some national polls that as much as 3% of the population may be involved!

Perhaps the most well-known researcher in this area is Dr. John E. Mack, who is professor of psychiatry at The Cambridge Hospital, Harvard Medical School. A contributor to over 150 articles in professional (peer-reviewed) journals and a former Pulitzer Prize winner, he certainly appears to have impressive credentials.

He has been involved in almost a hundred of these cases personally, and has shocked the professional community by declaring that he believes these beings may be real and that they appear to have an agenda to develop a hybrid race!12

At a professional conference on abductions at M.I.T., Dr. Mack asked the provocative question, “If what these abductees are saying is happening to them isn’t happening, then what is?”13

Could all this involve a return to the strange events of “the Days of Noah?”

[DTW note:  Demons exist and people who have had these abduction experiences have experienced, just that, an altered states of consciousness where they have come face to face with demonic entities who create a reality for them that seems so real.  The exact same can be said of someone who experiences a 'trip to heaven', they see, touch, taste and smell 'heaven or hell' but it's not real.]

Can A Christian Be “Abducted?”

In our publication, The Return of the Nephilim, I ventured the opinion, based on demonology considerations, that a Christian cannot be abducted. In response, I have received several letters of rebuttal, and also an interesting phone call from a senior executive at Universal Studios who apparently has extensive background in this area.

He indicated that he had participated with Dr. John Mack in some of his sessions, as well as with other researchers, and declared that I was wrong. He suggested that I investigate the Andreasson affair.

The Andreasson case involved a spirit-filled Christian; however, the reports indicate that she accepted an invitation to participate.14 It still appears to me that a Christian cannot be abducted unwillingly.

This opens up the entire subject of demonology and is beyond our scope here. (Our book does include a “Checklist for Potential Abductees” for those who are concerned with this issue.)   [Emphasis added]

[DTW note:  NEVER.  A genuine Born Again Christian will NEVER be abducted, EVER.  Chuck Missler's theology leaves little to be desires as he is a Dominionist, so I would not for one second believe him when he says the person in The Andreasson case was a genuine believer.]

* * *

AlienEncounters ChuckMissler Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.Dr. Mark Eastman and I have just published a new book, Alien Encounters, which attempts to explore the Biblical implications of the increasing reports of UFOs and their occupants, and their potential prophetic significance.

It will prove to be the most controversial thing we have done and we truly request your prayers!  [Emphasis added]

source: http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/22/


**NOTES**


  1.  Genesis 14:5; 15:20; Deuteronomy 2:10-12, 22.
  2. Deuteronomy 3:11, 13; Joshua 12:4;13:12.
  3. Joshua 14:15; 15:13; 21:11.
  4. 1 Samuel 17:4ff.
  5. 2 Samuel 21:16-22.
  6. Genesis 15:13-21.
  7. Numbers 13:33.
  8. 8. Joshua 6:21; 9:24; 10:28, 39; 11:24; Deut 2:34; 7:2, 3; 20:16-17; et al. Cf. 1 Sam 15:3, 8, 18, 19; Ps 137:8, 9.
  9. See our briefing package Iron Mixed With Clay (out of print – see An Empire Reborn?) for a complete discussion.
  10. Mire [Aramaic in the text] is from a root meaning to be swept away; thus, dust, dirt.
  11. Rephaim (giants) also translated “dead”: Ps 88:10; Prov 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa 14:9; 26:14.
  12. John E. Mack, Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens, Ballantine Books, NY, 1994, p.411.
  13. C.D.B. Bryan, Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind: Alien Abduction, UFOs, and the Conference at M.I.T., Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1995, p.4.
  14. Jim Marrs, Alien Agenda, HarperCollins Publishers, New York, p.213-218.

—————-

Jacob Prasch does not like to be questioned and he attacks in the most brutal of manner.  Where as I question someone’s doctrine, Jacob Prasch and those at Moriel Ministries (who support him) go for the jugular vein and threaten you.

Please read the following articles where I question Preasch doctrine, please read the comments BY Jacob Pracsh himself:  Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way,  Jacob Prasch the Railer,  Moriel Ministries and MIDRASHJacob Prasch – But By The Grace of God [those Calvinists] . . . Tell The Truth!,

And the website opened up by Jacob Prasch to insult me:  Who is Deborah – Defending Herself from Vicious Attacks

—————–

pixel Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler   Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.

94 comments to Jacob Prasch & Chuck Missler – Preach the False Teaching of Demonic Nephilim returning in End Times.

  • John chingford

    Well done Debs.

    I very briefly wrote something about JP’s webpage on his Nephilim beliefs on my blog. It is good that you have done a full critique on this false teaching.

    I wrote (towards the bottom of my article on link:

    http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/are-these-wordsactions-of-true-man-of.html

    “Taken from: [removed]

    Please note the statement made by Jacob in the third paragraph within the image:

    “The Nephilim, the fallen ones, are strange characters in Genesis. It would appear that they survived the Flood; whether the Nephilim who were in the land of Canaan when the Jews came to it are a different Nephilim from the ones who were spoken of before the flood is an issue over which theologians are divided; no one is really certain. Some say they are the same ones, some say they’re different. If they are the same, it would mean they had survived the deluge somehow. Nonetheless, these things are “the fallen ones”, and we’re told in Scripture that they copulated with human women.”

    This is what the BIBLE (not Jacob) says in Gen 6:7:

    “So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” and again in verse 13:

    “So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.”

    The Bible then goes on to give a very clear account how everyone and everything was destroyed by the flood except those in the ark. The Nephilim WERE NOT in the ark!!!

    How can you trust Jacob to be a man who speaks truth when he adds to the Bible and fabricates stories in order to prove his own theology?”

    JP implies that the Nephilim survived the flood. Maybe he has a convenenient midrash interpretation which proves this???? JP always pulls up a “midrash” method of teaching out of the bag everytime he wants to persuade us that his (and only his) interpretation is correct. He knows that we cannot dispute the “midrash” method of interpretation as we do not know it well enough. That gives him licence to tell us that we have to trust his interpretation. Sorry JP, more and more you are proving yourself to be a WOLF

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    This is what the BIBLE (not Jacob) says in Gen 6:7:

    “So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” and again in verse 13:

    “So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.”

    The Bible then goes on to give a very clear account how everyone and everything was destroyed by the flood except those in the ark.

    The Nephilim WERE NOT in the ark!!!

    “Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Lend me your ears! Jacob Prasch; The Nephilim WERE NOT in the ark!” says Deborah with loud speaker

  • Angela

    I believe that all Alien encounters and channelings are all demonic activity. My husband and inlaws are heavily into the “New Age” channelers, so I see the deception first hand. I pray constantly for them. I have read what these channelers have on their blogs, the Demons LOVE Obama. They say that he is pretending to be a bad guy, just until all of the mass arrests will happen. And the advice that these demons give is,”be still, meditate, and be positive and only think of love. It drives me crazy!!!!!
    Angela

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Angela

    I totally agree with you.

  • TruthfulConversation

    Angela, I am a bit confused about what you said, you said that Obama is just pretending to be a BAD guy? I would have thought that he was pretending to be a GOOD guy?

  • Martin Horan

    I’m a bit confused about that one also, TruthfulConversation.
    Bad often masquerades as good [2 Cor 11:14-15] but why would good want to masquerade as bad when bad is the antithesis of good?
    Perhaps Angela meant to type that “he is pretending to be a good guy”. I’ve occasionally typed the wrong word when I meant something else. It happens all the time in journalism and is known as eyeskip.
    Anyway, thanks for including the above, Debs. Excellent as usual!
    I never could see how Nephilim could be part demon and part human, especially in the statements of luke 20:35-36. Those Scriptures are pretty straightforward to me.
    I remember hearing a theory of what caused Satan to rebel against God. It’s only a theory but it’s interesting as a supposition–unless you try to make a theology of it! But it went like this:
    Satan had been informed that God had planned to make humans with an even greater potential than angels. They had the power to do something he and the angels could not do–reproduce themselves. So, in his jealousy–the result of pride–he rebelled against God and hates mankind and has continued to deceive it to its eternal destruction.
    Whatever… We do know that he loathes mankind and has tried to destroy humans, eternally, from mankind’s very beginning in Eden. We can be sure that if he and his demons had the power to impregnate women, they would have done so from the outset to create many hybrids.
    That would really have put the scuppers on God’s plan to redeem mankind–because, then, much of humanity would be part unredeemed demons. Forget even the ancestry of the Messiah being affected, even if God would see to Christ’s ancestors all being purely human, Satan still would have created plenty of humans impossible to receive redemption. Yet Scripture makes it plain–though Calvinists beg to differ–that God does not will that any should perish [2 Peter 3:9].
    As God would have known Satan planned that long before he did, and that there would be those incapable of receiving redemption, why then would God made angels with male sex organs? Presuming He did (though He did NOT!) He could only have done so logically for that purpose alone: Satan creating hybrids. Remember, had it happened, God would have known it was going to happen.
    If the descendents of these hybrids were around on the earth prior to Peter’s day, Peter ought not to have written the above Scripture as it then would already have been too late. God would have ordained it that that all of their offspring were going to be damned and there was nothing that could be done about it. But we know that Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write that Scripture [2 Tim 3:16]. So we know that it is not God’s will that any should perish and we know that Satan does not have sexual organs any more than any other angel has, whether they be fallen or with God in heaven.
    Of course, we know this stuff is fantasy pure and simple. Either that or God would be a greater Calvinist than Calvin!

  • Truthful Conversation

    Yes agreed Martin, I am sure it was a typo, but as I have not seen other comments from Angela, I thought I would ask her.

    I am liking that description you use..eyeskip! I hate it when I spell something incorrectly, not because I cannot spell correctly, but because it is a typo! I am very OCD about spelling and grammar, so it makes me mad when I do it! LOL

    I read and re-read my comments to check for error, so when I ‘eyeskip’ it truly frustrates me.

  • Michael

    Excellent article on this subject. I struggled to understand the term “Sons of God” however the bible does state that theory of angels and humans having offspring, therefore it is a false doctrine. I have wondered about Chuck Missler ministry, he was being promoted by a Calvary Chapel I use to attend. Can you tell me more about the Calvary Chapel movement?

  • misselis

    [deleted - sorry for deleting your commenting, I am in no mood for Prasch supporters - goodbye]

  • Leigh

    Of course you are going to delete comments, you are a coward, God forbid someone challenge you. You sure can dish it out but you can’t take the heat!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    >> Of course you are going to delete comments, you are a coward, God forbid someone challenge you. You sure can dish it out but you can’t take the heat!

    No, I want to people to see what the so called Christian spirit that ooooozzzeeessss out of followers of Jacob Prasch.

  • Michael

    [delete - You insult me by saying I don not show love because I delete comments, well, understand this, deleting a comment does not mean I hate you, it only means I am 'deleting your comment'.]

  • Michael

    I didn’t say you don’t show love by deleting comments. It’s the tone of your responses in green as well as the tone of the deletions which I take issue with. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what is meant, but the tone sounds sarcastic and disrespectful among other things to me. I don’t recall exactly what I wrote, but I apologize if I was out of line. I didn’t mean to insult you but rather to challenge you to examine the nature of your responses.

    From my perspective, the entire point of this blog seems to be to mention one singular point of view, and any comments which don’t fall in line are deleted. I made many points that I was hoping would be addressed and that we could have a dialogue on the issue.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    You get a TONE from words on a screen? That’s incredible. You must teach me how to hear tones. Because that TONE is generated in your head by your feelings! Not my feelings.

    And yes this blog mentions one point of view, one biblical point of view. And no, we don’t do Emergent dialogue. The aim of this blog is to strand up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not bow down to other gods.

  • Marion

    Michael – you can find more information about Chuck Missler by placing his name in the search bar on Deb’s site here, above.

    You also requested information about Calvary Chapels. They have been extensively exposed on these 3 sites:

    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/ [DTW note: BEWARE OF THIS WEBSITE]

    http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/ [DTW note: BEWARE OF THIS WEBSITE]

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/

    There is lots of information on all these sites, if you google Calvary Chapel and use their names, it might narrow it down for you. There is much good material to be found there. BUT use discernment whenever you read. In many good sites you can find some error; “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” 1 Cor. 13:12-13).

    Disclaimer: Use of any site/link is not an endorsement of any person, group, “ministry” or philosophy.

  • Michael

    [delete - sorry, we here stand for the Gospel of Jesus Christ - if you don't like it, please go elsewhere.]

  • James

    Hi Deborah,

    This is a quote from you that I lifted from the above article,

    Jacob Prasch does not like to be questioned and he attacks in the most brutal of manner. Where as I question someone’s doctrine, Jacob Prasch and those at Moriel Ministries (who support him) go for the jugular vein and threaten you.

    I am just curious if you follow this same practice by deleting comments from others on this comment string?

    I also noticed as you have pointed out that Prasch and Missler have taken liberties with Biblical passages, I believe you have as well, ie:

    When the Israelites came back to report to Moses they exaggerated the physical strength of the Canaanites. “We were in our own sight as grasshoppers” is based on ‘strong Orientalism’, meaning this is how they would described the situation in their manner, their mannerism.

    How would you know they “exaggerated the physical strength…” I am not getting that from the Biblical verse you used, is there another verse that points this out?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    James

    Deleting comments (because the comment is generally attacking me) is NOT attacking people in the most brutal manner – what is so difficult to understand about that.

    >> I also noticed as you have pointed out that Prasch and Missler have taken liberties with Biblical passages, I believe you have as well, ie:

    When the Israelites came back to report to Moses they exaggerated the physical strength of the Canaanites. “We were in our own sight as grasshoppers” is based on ‘strong Orientalism’, meaning this is how they would described the situation in their manner, their mannerism.

    How would you know they “exaggerated the physical strength…” I am not getting that from the Biblical verse you used, is there another verse that points this out?

    Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
    Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (1871) believes so as well that is it a FIGURE OF SPEECH.

    Isaiah also uses this same figure of speech / mannerism.

    Isaiah 40:21-22
    21 ​​​​​​​Do you not know? ​​​​​​Do you not hear? ​​​​​​Has it not been told to you since the very beginning? ​​​​​​Have you not understood from the time the earth’s foundations were made? 22 ​​​​​​​He is the one who sits on the earth’s horizon; ​​​​​​its inhabitants are like grasshoppers before him. ​​​​​​He is the one who stretches out the sky like a thin curtain, ​​​​​​and spreads it out like a pitched tent.

  • shane

    Hello, this is a great site by the way! I am not entrenched on my beliefs of the subject because the Holy Spirit is always showing me new things and through walking with my Lord and savior Jesus Christ the veil gets lifted more and more everyday. I pray we all due our due diligence on studying the Word and allowing its author to reveal its mysteries to us. Food for thought……..

    1. The adversary had just received a judgment that there would be enmity( to be an enemy,hatred,hostility) between the woman’s seed (Jesus Christ) and the seed of the serpent and that his(serpent) head would be crushed by the woman’s seed. Genesis 3:15 simply states that the serpent has seed, offspring or descendants!
    a) Who or what is this offspring of the serpent and isn’t it logical to say that the serpents seed can manifest in the flesh?
    b) Don’t you think satan in his vanity and pride think he could do something about changing his predicament?

    2. We all know Noah was a righteous man but in Genesis 6:9 we learn that he was also perfect in his generations(KJV). The Hebrew word for perfect could be rendered without blemish. It is also the same word that describes the sacrificial animal( EX 12:5,LEV 1:3) that were to be offered up the Lord.
    a) Why does the Lord mention purity in his generations or ancestry if it weren’t important?

    My intention is not to build any doctrine but to ask questions. Thank you for the consideration and remember that iron sharpens iron. Praise Jesus our coming king!!!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Shame

    1. The adversary had just received a judgment that there would be enmity( to be an enemy,hatred,hostility) between the woman’s seed (Jesus Christ) and the seed of the serpent and that his(serpent) head would be crushed by the woman’s seed. Genesis 3:15 simply states that the serpent has seed, offspring or descendants!
    a) Who or what is this offspring of the serpent and isn’t it logical to say that the serpents seed can manifest in the flesh?
    b) Don’t you think satan in his vanity and pride think he could do something about changing his predicament?

    2. We all know Noah was a righteous man but in Genesis 6:9 we learn that he was also perfect in his generations(KJV). The Hebrew word for perfect could be rendered without blemish. It is also the same word that describes the sacrificial animal( EX 12:5,LEV 1:3) that were to be offered up the Lord.
    a) Why does the Lord mention purity in his generations or ancestry if it weren’t important?

    1) Serpent Seed teaching is a false doctrine all on it’s on and has nothing to do with the Nephilim. Satan did not have sexual relations with Eve.

    2) Noah was a type of ‘Christ’ his whole story foreshadows the coming of Jesus Christ – http://www.biblebelievers.com/Pink/Gleanings_Genesis/genesis_12.htm Noah ‘being without blemish’ has got nothing to do with godly genepool vs a demonic genepool.

  • Carolyn

    Debs, I admit to having studied this area mostly from the bias of the teaching on angels leaving their first estate, giants being the product of an uncommon union in a Satanic attempt to corrupt the image of God in man. Frankly, I see it that way but I’ve been wrong once before in my life….. soooooooo, it’s possible that there might be a second time….

    I regard the whole thing as in the realm of speculation and I really dislike the idea of how far they are taking this study…away from Scriptural boundaries into forbidden areas. I understand they are for the reason of research, but focusing our attention on alien abductions and how portals are generated gives me the creeps. I think we can use a bit of insight into secret societies and the use of the occult for the purpose of comparing error with truth, and exposing the wickedness of these teachings but to write books on the stuff, goes beyond creepy.

    The study of Scripture is a full time occupation for believers. Do we really have time to go beyond the boundaries of what is written into areas that have nothing to do with our walk with the Lord? One has to question the motives of such spiritual meanderings.

  • Colin Ford

    Deborah!
    I should mention that Arthur Pink was a five point TULIP Calvinist!
    I would remind you that many of your contributors call such teachings blasphemous.
    That said, I would certainly agree with you that Mr Pink as a gifted Bible expositor, I believe that he was raised in Dispensational circles, so I wouldn’t recommend his ‘Redeemer’s Return’, I believe that it inspired the ‘Left Behind’ series!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Colin

    Thanks for confirming info regarding Arthur Pink. I would not recommend people read ANYTHING by him.

  • Carolyn

    Debs…I will take some time to research this side of the Genesis 6 paradigm. For some reason, I ended up in the camp of the Nephillum-ites on my journey and there I have pitched my tent. So maybe it’s time for me to study the other side of the coin. Be patient….God isn’t finished with me yet.

    I think the danger that lurks in this camp is the concentration on evil rather than godliness. Sensationalism and the Supernatural-ism sells books. And Occult teachings are like a votex…once you enter, you may never return. This is the danger that Scripture warns about and why the occult practices are forbidden.

    Most, even in the camp of the Nephilium-ites, would agree with the need to emphasize God’s Word in eschatology. There are some very influential theologians, however, that have infiltrated that camp and have ended up infecting the whole batch with occult interests and false teaching. They are teaching on the the deeper secrets of Satan without comprehending the risks, to themselves but especially to new believers. Being deceived and deceiving….

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn wrote:

    Debs, I admit to having studied this area mostly from the bias of the teaching on angels leaving their first estate, giants being the product of an uncommon union in a Satanic attempt to corrupt the image of God in man. Frankly, I see it that way but I’ve been wrong once before in my life….. soooooooo, it’s possible that there might be a second time….
    I regard the whole thing as in the realm of speculation and I really dislike the idea of how far they are taking this study…away from Scriptural boundaries into forbidden areas. I understand they are for the reason of research, but focusing our attention on alien abductions and how portals are generated gives me the creeps. I think we can use a bit of insight into secret societies and the use of the occult for the purpose of comparing error with truth, and exposing the wickedness of these teachings but to write books on the stuff, goes beyond creepy.
    The study of Scripture is a full time occupation for believers. Do we really have time to go beyond the boundaries of what is written into areas that have nothing to do with our walk with the Lord? One has to question the motives of such spiritual meanderings.

    I agree! There are certain mysteries that will not be revealed to us now and we should be concentrating on things that the Lord DID make clear about the Gospel and salvation and the end times. That should give us a full plate!

  • Test all things

    As a note on your understanding of hebrew text, Numbers 13:33 has the word Nephalim twice which is Fallen ones. Same as used in Genesis. It doesn’t mean distinguished. Some bible translators use distinguished, but this is a poor mistranslation. It helps to know the language. It’s important when building a case to have all of the facts.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Test all things

    Nonsense. “Fallen Onces” is not used, “Giants” is used. And if you READ the verse BEFORE verse 33 you will see something quite interesting… (taken from the KJV 1611)

    Numbers 13:32-33 (KJV 1611)
    32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. 33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

    You say TEST all things, but you do not. You can’t read 1 verse. You READ all verses, not just those mentioned above either. I have explained this in the article.

    Regading language…the word Giant here comes from the Hebrew word which refers here to stature.

  • Carolyn

    Redeemed and All:

    Here’s what I take from the above post. We fly with our assumptions far too easily. Without extra biblical input, Genesis 6 and Jude 6 gives us some very scant information about that period. I don’t understand what went on back there. I also see that I have made connections by way of extra biblical texts which could transition into error if I don’t stay biblically grounded. And I agree that it was for wickedness that God judged both Noah’s generation and Sodom and Gomorrah. Wickedness on every level is pervasive.

    I have had a few times when I believe God disciplined me to keep me out of trouble. Because my Biblical framework of belief in him was lacking in my youth, I trespassed in territories I should not have. For instance, when I was doing a book report on UFOs. I was researching diligently. One night an immense round, UFO, flashing lights and all, (I can still picture it) landed in the yard outside my bedroom window. I felt the presence of evil and the sight was so vivid and frightening, as I awoke, I had to pull back the curtains and look out the window to make sure it wasn’t there. After reassuring myself that nothing was there, I crawled back under the covers with only my eyes showing and laid still while listening to my heart pounding.

    In this case, I believe God’s hand of protection was on me and he allowed such an experience to teach me that I was dealing with demons, not extra terrestrials. I dropped the research and chose a different topic. Because of this experience, I have never intentionally trespassed into supernatural realms, even for research purposes. I do see things in the occasional documentary, or news items, etc. But I do not crawl around in Satan’s domain, investigating areas that are forbidden to the Christian. We just do not need to know some things.

    The Nephillum teaching remains in the realm of speculation. It will stay there for me. I won’t be pursuing any doctrines based on those assumptions. And that’s where I am right now. I haven’t had much to do with Chuck Missler or Jacob Prasch as I am mostly on Gary Stearman’s site. And I’m not interested in reading their books, especially after the reactions I have witnessed here.

    On Gary’s site, I haven’t seen much promotion of these two, probably because they promote themselves well enough. I may not agree with Gary on everything, but I do respect him. He presents the gospel and has his Bible open when giving his daily updates on news items. It’s up to the individual to take what is said and study it out for himself. We are presented with food for thought by many individuals that he interviews on his show. Now I cannot say the same thing for some who seem to be supernatural addicts, promoting things from a worldview other than the Bible and sprinkling their quantum leaps with Scripture out of context. Same as New Agers do.

    As Christ continues to say to us…”beware!”

  • Carolyn

    Re my previous post….Stronger terms needed here. I am seeing the diabolical nature of the Nephillum teaching and the Shadows of the Beast! It’s giving licence to the study of the occult so that we can recognize the Anti-Christ. But why would we have to recognize him when we aren’t looking for him? We are looking for Christ!

    Yes…JP and Missler are among many who are promoting a wrong focus that is diverting attention away from the positive expectation of Christ’s coming and putting it on the shadowy realms of darkness. I get it. My stronger terms are “Burn the books! Read the Bible!”

    And I was also thinking that Gary Stearman is pre-trib and that’s why he’s not promoting JP and Missler. (Lightbulb moment)

    Tom Horn is another big name that has us popping our heads through portals and peeping through windows of darkness. What are we doing in this occult world???? Research? Where will we end up? That’s the concern.

    Anyhow…I’m doing some thinking and a lot of sifting.

  • Carolyn

    Update: Was just reading: http://herescope.blogspot.ca/2012/07/the-serpent-seed-nephilim.html

    Here is an excerpt:

    “This Manifested Sons of God false teaching that the “church as the incarnation of God, will manifest Christ on earth” means that the church becomes Christ—takes the place of Christ upon the earth. If so, then there would then be no purpose for Christ to return. The church would wield the same power, sovereignty and authority on earth as the Lord Jesus Christ, in His physical absence. This blasphemous doctrine becomes important as we continue to examine the “Serpent Seed” heresy. And it may explain why the focus has shifted to the return of the Nephilim instead of the return of Jesus Christ.”

    I’m trying to see where I fit into this “giant” (pardon the pun) paradigm.

    The Serpent Seed heresy, is of course, just that, heresy…ridiculous heresy!!!

    The Nephillum are giants. Everyone agrees on that.

    But who are the giants?

    Apparently, I am not alone as I have been caught up in this theory of fallen angel speculation. I was going with the Pre-millenial paradigm but even in that area, there has arisen a confusing spectrum of disagreement, according to this article by Gaylene Goodroad. So now we appear to have at the next prophecy conference in Colorado Springs a mixture of everything from Dominionism to Serpent Seed doctrine. I thought I was confused before.

    Actually, I’m not confused. I still believe in Premillenium, Pretribulation doctrine. And the rest of the contrived doctrines I will leave entangled in the spidery webs they came from ie. William Branham, Aimee Semple McPherson, Tom Horn and Chuck Missler, etc. For myself, I will continue to read and believe the Word.

    Stay safe, everyone…Christ is coming soon. Of that we are sure.
    Ephesians 4:14
    That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    **I’m not saying that everyone in the prophecy camp is wrong. But there is such a mixture among them, that we must test the spirits and be discerning.

  • Carolyn

    This excerpt is found in the concluding thoughts of an expanded commentary by Gaylene Goodroad on the Serpent Seed. It is a commentary on Genesis 3:14,15 by Matthew Henry and brings us back down to earth. When I first began to look at the other side of Genesis 6…as in the Days of Noah, I thought it was just one little isolated doctrine of little import on the whole of eschatology. I’m seeing instead, that it is a pervasive leaven. It’s important to see where this doctrine ends up, not just where it begins….

    http://apprising.org/2012/07/23/the-serpent-seed-the-nephilim/

    The truth:

    “Note these precious truths from Genesis 3:15 explained by esteemed Bible commentator Matthew Henry centuries ago—truths betrayed and forsaken by those preaching the “Serpent Seed” heresy. Genesis 3:14-15 is all about JESUS, our Redeemer!

    3:14, 15 God passes sentence; and he begins where the sin began, with the serpent. The devil’s instruments must share in the devil’s punishments. Under the cover of the serpent, the devil is sentenced to be degraded and accursed of God; detested and abhorred of all mankind: also to be destroyed and ruined at last by the great Redeemer, signified by the breaking of his head. War is proclaimed between the Seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. It is the fruit of this enmity, that there is a continual warfare between grace and corruption, in the hearts of God’s people. Satan, by their corruptions, buffets them, sifts them, and seeks to devour them. Heaven and hell can never be reconciled, nor light and darkness; no more can Satan and a sanctified soul. Also, there is a continual struggle between the wicked and the godly in this world. A gracious promise is here made of Christ, as the Deliverer of fallen man from the power of Satan.Here was the dawn of the gospel day: no sooner was the wound given, than the remedy was provided and revealed. This gracious revelation of a Saviour came unasked, and unlooked for. Without a revelation of mercy, giving some hope of forgiveness, the convinced sinner would sink into despair, and be hardened. By faith in this promise, our first parents, and the patriarchs before the flood, were justified and saved. Notice is given concerning Christ.1. His incarnation, or coming in the flesh. It speaks great encouragement to sinners, that their Saviour is the Seed of the woman, bone of our bone, Heb 2:11,14.
    2. His sufferings and death; pointed at in Satan’s bruising his heel, that is, his human nature. And Christ’s sufferings are continued in the sufferings of the saints for his name. The devil tempts them, persecutes and slays them; and so bruises the heel of Christ, who is afflicted in their afflictions. But while the heel is bruised on earth, the Head is in heaven.
    3. His victory over Satan thereby. Christ baffled Satan’s temptations, rescued souls out of his hands. By his death he gave a fatal blow to the devil’s kingdom, a wound to the head of this serpent that cannot be healed. As the gospel gains ground, Satan falls.[17] [bold added]

    “…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.”
    ~ Acts 26:18″

    Ancient Chinese Proverb by Carolyn says: Take the Word seriously…or you will be seriously “taken” for a ride….

  • Carolyn

    The thing that scares me about Jacob Prasch more than even the Nephillum teaching is the Hebrew Roots teaching. Now there is a diabolical evil that has come rolling into the Christian camp like a 100 pound bowling ball that takes everything out in its pathetic distortion of truth.

    http://www.SeekGod.ca/hr/hrfaqs.htm#hebraic

  • shane

    Carolyn,
    What is so wrong with Hebrew roots? I myself am a gentile having been grafted (wild branch)into the natural branch (Romans 11). We are one in Jesus. Great blessings were poured out onto the early church because jew and gentile were in one accord. For myself the revelation of the coming rapture and second coming is hidden in plain sight when one studies the jewish wedding! The messianic churches do not require gentiles to become jews. They are jews who love Jesus ( Yeshua) as their messiah and welcome all who would like to worship in their cultural context. Do not let one bad apple spoil the bunch. May Jesus continually bless you with love and revelation of His will and His name be glorified in all the earth!!!!

  • Redeemed

    Shane, one concern I have about the Messianic fellowships that I know of is that they hold to Sabbath worship. This sets them apart from the greater Body of Christ and is clinging to the Law.

    Also, there is a much attention to Jewish tradition and some hold to Torah Law. Everything has to have a Jewish flavor.

    Yes, we can see the fulfillment of prophecy and how Jesus is seen throughout the Old Testament and the Jewish wedding is a wonderful picture of the Lord’s return for His Bride.

    But the Jewish Roots movement overemphasizes and thereby sets themselves apart from the Body of Christ by having their own special churches.
    This is the very thing that Paul took Peter to task over – separation between Jew and Gentile. Jesus said that we are to be one Body. Jewish Roots carves out their own little niche.

    I have personally seen people get off into some very unsound teaching through people in this type of movement.

  • Carolyn

    @ Shane: re comment #34. Great blessings were poured out onto the early church because Christ died for their sins and there was now no difference between Jew and Gentile. They were all one in Christ.

    The Hebrew Roots are trying to bring Gentiles into bondage to Jewish culture, language and law.

    You said: “The messianic churches do not require gentiles to become jews.” And I say that the moon is made of blue cheese, the Mormon Jesus didn’t come from the planet Kolob, Roman Catholics do not revere Mary and Adventists don’t follow the teachings of Ellen G. White.

    If you think there isn’t more to Hebrew Roots movements than understanding a little bit of their culture such as the Jewish Wedding, you are either hiding something or they are….because like every other cult, they begin with a bit of truth and lead you into falsehood. I was in SDA(Seventh Day Adventist) for a while and their opening statement was “salvation is faith in Christ by grace….but” They had me at “grace” and I missed the “but”. Then they proceeded to entangle me in the law.

    There is a lot out there to help you understand what you are getting yourself into if you are a serious contender for the faith once for all delivered. If you simply want to follow a nice little Messianic group…then I can’t help you. Keeping in mind that there are many variations of the movement, they do have some common features which you will find covered in this article.

    Excerpt from: http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/dangersHRM.html

    Titus 1:14 says not to give heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, for those that do have turned from the truth.

    I believe the Hebrew Roots organizations have become the modern equivalent of the Judaisers who followed the Apostle Paul from city to city, spying on the NT believers’ liberty in Christ and striving to pervert the Gospel and cause confusion among the Early Christians. When these Judaisers sought to draw the Christians of the Galatian church back under the Judaic Religious System, Paul warned the Galatian church to not give credence to their arguments for they were perverting the Gospel of Christ.

    Instead of Christ alone, the HRM and Messianic Jewish Movement over-balance into the religion that they have never really left! They cannot grasp that ALL is fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. Not only that, but they want the Christians to embrace the O.T. Jewish religious beliefs, ordinances, and traditions that were necessary under the Law as well!

    *******

    And from: http://www.raptureready.com/rap40f.html

    this excerpt: Masquerading in many cases as Messianic Jews, the Hebrew Roots Movement (HRM) groups are too many to count. I have provided links below to many that I have come across. They seem to be gaining momentum and crawling out of the woodwork, and I can only speculate who is kicking their proverbial anthill.

    Hyper-Hebrew groups vary like snowflakes when it comes to their beliefs and doctrines, but I have noticed a theme to which they, for the most part, adhere.”

    As well, he has linked to some of the major HRM cults.

    Attention to detail is necessary if you want to remain rooted in the Truth. There’s always someone looking to draw disciples after themselves and away from Christ. There is one Truth and many variations of the Lie.

  • Mark Purchase

    The article above makes interesting reading.

    Missler has just moved to my country to live. Hope one day to meet him. As I have some views myself about the sexy angels nonsense as well – http://answers.net.nz/RCC/sons.God.htm

  • Redeemed

    Mark Purchase wrote:

    The article above makes interesting reading.
    Missler has just moved to my country to live. Hope one day to meet him. As I have some views myself about the sexy angels nonsense as well – http://answers.net.nz/RCC/sons.God.htm

    Why in the world would you want to meet Mr. Missler? Unless you are a fan of his.

  • Larry H

    Deborah, I am sorry if I offended you, but I just had to let you know how your blog affected to me. I am sure you are a devoted Christian, and would do anything to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. I know you are trying to do the right thing. If we are trying to help others we need to be very humble at how we go about it. I know I wasn’t humble in addressing you earlier, forgive me. I was just trying to let you see another side of the issue. Jesus was very tender toward those without knowledge, but He was sometimes very harsh with those who should have known. None of us know exactly what God has laid out in specific situations, that is why we live a life of faith and love toward others and ourselves. We are going to make mistakes, but we are still loved. You have a marvelous blog here, an excellent opportunity to lovingly gather brothers and sisters all over the world for reproof and love. Maybe Jacob and Chuck, like the rest of us, make some mistakes in how they react sometimes, but by and large they are trying to promote the love of Christ to anyone and everyone who will listen. I love them both. So maybe Jacob comes off a little strong sometimes, but I am sure he gets beat down plenty by Satan and unbelievers. Let us please not fight among ourselves. Christ gave His Life for us, not so we could fight each other, but so we could love each other and Him. God bless you and what you are trying to do in your heart for Christ, He knows your heart and only He can help us all.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Larry H

    Thing that gets me is that you judge me through a PC screen, you take my words (add your EMOTIONS to them) and judge my heart. The fact of the matter is this, I love EVERYONE enough to sit here day in and day out and be insulted day in and day out. Chuck and Jacob, don’t make mistakes, preaching a false gospel and being told you are wrong and then carry on doing it is called SINNING.
    When I make a mistake and I am told about it (it happens a few times on this website) I apologise profusely, fix the problem, let people know the truth and so on and so on. The Misslers and Praschs of this world do not do that, they instead attack you in the vilest manner as you try to warn the flock of their FALSE ways. I once did a test, for 5 people I added smiley faces to the comment in the hopes that the person would react differently in hearing the truth to the other 5 people’s comment who never got smiley faces. You know what the outcome was? The exact same, all 10 lambased me for being full of hatred! Why? Because of the MESSAGE! That is why. Not the way I said it, but the Message itself is what got to them. Jesus said His Gospel is Hated and those who preach His Gospel TRUTH will be Hated as well. So I sit here an tolerate the abuse because I know sooner or later someone will come along TRULY SEEKING the Gospel and will hear and they will listen to the Holy Spirit speak to them and understand what this blog is all about.

  • Redeemed

    Larry, thanks for coming back. If this was the first time you have seen this blog, I can understand how you might misunderstand the intent and heart behind it.

    You can have no idea of the slander and abuse that Deborah takes and the utter hatred that comes from people. Most people would have thrown up their hands and given up.

    Please look into Prasch and Missler’s teachings with an open mind. No one ever questions Prasch and Missler has his faithful followers. False teaching needs to be called out no matter who does it because we serve God, not man. If one is genuine, they will welcome being told, but usually it is the opposite and like Deborah says, it doesn’t matter how it is said – it is the message that is rejected.

    The Bible tells us to test the spirits and not enough people are doing that these days and there is little or no accountability.

  • Kim

    Very interesting comments. I am in agreement that the nephilim and serpent seed teachings have so infiltrated Christendom that many cannot see the problem with the teachings. I personally have known friends who no longer care about the plain and simple teachings from the Bible. Or they now believe that one has to access books like Jasher and Enoch to find truth. This is Gnostism pure and simple. This is where I get angry with the Prophecy in the New site with Stearman and Horn. They seem like nice men but are false teachers.

    Carolyn I found your information on UFO’s (#29) very interesting. As a young girl, 16, I saw a UFO while walking down the street at night with a friend. It was a beautiful saucer, spinning. We both looked up and saw it. We looked up again and it was gone. The experience mystified me for many years. Then I learned they are demonic.

    I few things then fell into place. The night before, me and my girlfriend had been playing with a Oiuja board and conjured up a spirit. Scared us silly and we didn’t use it again. But something happened that night. I learned that we gave out an invitation for contact. I think there is a danger in delving too deeply into the occult…and that you open up yourself for deception.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Kim!!

  • Carolyn

    Kim…yes, “an invitation for contact”…that’s such a good phrase. Without a doubt, the Ouija Board is a point of contact. We do these things so innocently and if it wasn’t for God’s protection…I have felt evil a few times in my life and for me it has stimulated my pain sensors something like the element on a hot stove. Don’t touch that again!!!!

    My radar is up with Prophecy in the News. I’ve had my guard up for a while now as I find some books/teachings crossing the line into hardcore occult…usually in the name of research, but there’s a bit of “let’s get the popcorn out” and settle back to watch the video production or read the book. Make yourself comfortable.

    Indoctrination is a subtle thing. It is easy to become the frog in the kettle…I share your concern especially for those not rooted in the Scripture; that the thirst for knowledge of supernatural elements, angels, portals, UFOs as well as the forbidden occult knowledge and doctrines of demons could well be creating a desire for other than a love of the truth. These extra biblical sources can end up being channels for deception. The question must be asked, what are we most thirsty for? Living Water or something else? Are we developing an appetite for sensationalism and the perverse?

    Yes, I see this mixture with the occult is diluting the enthusiasm for Just the Word, the Life Giving, Energizing, Thirst Quenching, Sin Exposing, Life Transforming, Hope Giving, Faith Building, Love Generating Truth! That’s the only Alien life form I want to encounter….the alien (me) that’s just passing through…

  • Carolyn

    http://www.lionheartministries.org/calendar_conf_NephilimAgenda.php ok…this is too much…nephilim mounds conferences!!!

    The people that are talking about the Nephilim these days are sensationalizing evil…don’t read anything on these sites…this is just an example of where these extreme teachings are originating…With Randy DeMain, LA Marzulli, and Russ Dizdar taking their audience from extreme prophetic to extreme darkness….

    promotes Patricia King and XP Media/Ministries

    http://www.shatterthedarkness.net/ exposing darkness…to the extreme

    It’s a departure from the faith….and a frightening scenario of the blending of end times prophetic research and NAR.

  • Denis

    The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and unto our children for ever.( kjv)
    we are told that we are the salt of the earth and the light of the world.
    THE WORLD IS WATCHING US.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Denis

    >> The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and unto our children for ever.( kjv)
    we are told that we are the salt of the earth and the light of the world.
    THE WORLD IS WATCHING US.

    Errrr, what are you speaking about?
    We are currently in an APOSTASY unlike the world has ever seen where the world has turned to a false Christianity, the world is not watching us, GOD IS WATCHING YOU to see which master you chose to follow, a false Christ or Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God.

  • peter

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    This is what the BIBLE (not Jacob) says in Gen 6:7:
    “So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” and again in verse 13:
    “So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.”
    The Bible then goes on to give a very clear account how everyone and everything was destroyed by the flood except those in the ark.
    The Nephilim WERE NOT in the ark!!!
    “Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Lend me your ears! Jacob Prasch; The Nephilim WERE NOT in the ark!” says Deborah with loud speaker

    that may be true, but the wives of Noah’s sons could have carried their seed; how would you explain that they were present even after the flood?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    peter

    >> that may be true, but the wives of Noah’s sons could have carried their seed; how would you explain that they were present even after the flood?

    No peter, that would mean they were pregnant when they were on the ark and that means that they were not God fearing people. Noak and his family were God fearing people that is why God spared their lives. My goodness read your bible please.

  • John Chingford

    Peter

    Why did God bring the flood on the Earth?

    Genesis 6:4-7 tells us why. Specifically verses 5-7:

    “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

    In the verses prior it is clear why God needed to destroy them. the Nephilim were a prime example. If God only saved six it was because only these were found righteous in God’s sight and worthy to recommence the repopulation of the earth. Do you really think God would have accepted any woman who carried the perverted seed?

    Yes, we are told that the Nephilim appeared afterwards. Well (as usual) it doesn’t take long for humans (who contain a sinful nature) to spread the sinful nature within their children. Their seed is not the Nephilim seed but simply the Adamic seed of sinful nature which becomes more and more corrupt with every succeeding generation. It was just inevitable that eventually the sin would become so dire again that giants of sin would re-emerge again. Nowhere are we told that “sons of god” came back again. Everything EVERYTHING was destroyed in the flood apart from what was left in the ark. the Nephilim WERE NOT in the ark!!!

  • S.E.Brown

    Carolyn wrote:

    Debs, I admit to having studied this area mostly from the bias of the teaching on angels leaving their first estate, giants being the product of an uncommon union in a Satanic attempt to corrupt the image of God in man. Frankly, I see it that way but I’ve been wrong once before in my life….. soooooooo, it’s possible that there might be a second time….
    I regard the whole thing as in the realm of speculation and I really dislike the idea of how far they are taking this study…away from Scriptural boundaries into forbidden areas. I understand they are for the reason of research, but focusing our attention on alien abductions and how portals are generated gives me the creeps. I think we can use a bit of insight into secret societies and the use of the occult for the purpose of comparing error with truth, and exposing the wickedness of these teachings but to write books on the stuff, goes beyond creepy.
    The study of Scripture is a full time occupation for believers. Do we really have time to go beyond the boundaries of what is written into areas that have nothing to do with our walk with the Lord? One has to question the motives of such spiritual meanderings.

    Carolyn- I find myself in agreement with what you have said here. I’ve always read God’s Word, and taken it at “Face Value”, only doing a deeper study when something truly stirred my spirit to pursue the subject further. There’s a saying about Biblical interpretation that goes something like this: “If (in the WRITTEN WORD)common sense makes sense, we need no further sense.” I agree.

    I’ve ALWAYS believed that the fallen angels, called “watchers”(“sons of God”), TRESPASSED the boundaries God had placed on them, and did indeed take from among human women(“the daughters of men”) WIVES for themselves, and that CHILDREN were born of these unions:

    Gen 6:4 ” There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”

    **If THIS^^^ were NOT TRUE, then the Bible would say:”…when the SONS of MEN came in unto the DAUGHTERS of MEN, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”**

    NO! God makes a POINT here, one which captures the attention of any serious student of His Word! HE says that there were GIANTS in those days, and after, because of the union of fallen angels and human woman.
    We also see that not only were these fallen angels wicked and REBELLIOUS against God, but ALSO their “progeny” helped spread this WICKEDNESS throughout the whole known world of humans in Noah’s day, thus God intended to destroy ALL humanity AND the animals!

    These fallen angels were LIMITED in number, and Satan INTENDED to use them to DESTROY the coming Messianic line of humans. Also, I believe that Satan’s original rebellion began the moment he found out that God intended for ALL humans to be “HIGHER than the angels”, and to “RULE over them in time”- he was going to have NONE of that-his PRIDE would NEVER allow it! That’s why he “tricked” Eve and then Adam into giving over the “Title Deed” to planet earth, which God had given to Adam! The “Scroll” with the SEALS that Jesus Christ opens in Revelation Ch.6 IS THAT VERY “Title Deed”!!!!

    I DO BELIEVE that ALL humans (“hybrid” and otherwise) along with ALL the animals, PERISHED in the Great Flood, EXCEPT for Noah,his wife, their 3 sons and their wives, and all of the animals that GOD brought into the Ark for His Salvation, and to “start over” with that one FAITHFUL & OBEDIENT man, Noah, and his family.

    We KNOW from the Book of Jude that these disobedient and wicked “Watcher” fallen angels are NOW being held in “everlasting chains under darkness”:
    Jud 1:6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    They EXISTED,they SINNED, and they HAD WICKED CHILDREN with human woman,and they ARE BEING PUNISHED by God, and we KNOW this, because God tells us so in His Word!

    The OTHER subject:”Satan’s Seed”- There ARE SONS of Satan! The Bible calls them “Sons of Belial”. I do believe that ALL angels have the ability to procreate, and that they are ALL MALE, which means that they can ONLY produce MALE children, since GOD is their Father, and they have NO mother. Their chromosones are totally MALE.

    Now, as to Eve & Satan- I KNOW that they did NOT have sexual relations, because God’s Word tells us that the “SEDUCTION” was purely with WORDS-the Original LIE of Satan that he uses to this day to lead humans to Hell:…”ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”…Man’s PRIDEFUL quest for KNOWLEDGE & the POWER that comes from it is what leads so MANY to perdition, because they THINK they KNOW BETTER than GOD what is “good” for them!

    Furthermore, God’s Word tells us clearly and plainly that Cain and Abel were BOTH of them the OFFSPRING of the union of ADAM and Eve:
    Gen 4:1 ” And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
    Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.”

    When Jesus said that we would be as the angels in Heaven, neither marrying, nor giving in marriage, I personally believe that He meant that those angels in Heaven were OBEDIENT to their Father God, that He NEVER intended for them to procreate, and that it was FORBIDDEN to them to have carnal relations with ANY human being. The Bible never says that they were “GENDERLESS”!

    As to “the return of the Nephilim” in these Last Days and during the Tribulation, and all of the FOCUS & SPECULATION that Prasch,Missler,Mike Hoggard,L.A.Marzulli,Tom Horn, ad NAUSEUM put on these things and make “MEGA BUCK$” off books & videos from PURE “Human VAIN Imaginings”, God’s Word does NOT address it.

    The only “glimpse” we have regarding demonic and Satanic activity is the antichrist,the false prophet, “Mystery,Babylon the Great, the Mother of all harlots(the soon-coming One World Religion{“Bride of Satan}”, and the “locusts” released from the Abyss, and actually, MOST of the Trib. will be FILLED with Satanic activity as JUDGMENT from GOD & The Lamb on this whole Christ-rejecting,EVIL-loving world! We are NOT to go beyond the BOUNDARIES of God’s Word as His people, because we LOVE and are OBEDIENT to His BELOVED Son!

    The Book of Revelation IMPLIES that by the time The Millenial Reign of our Lord Jesus Christ is OVER, the procreation of the human race will also come to an end. At least that is what I discern from my reading of Revelation. Thereafter comes the Great White Throne Judgment of all the unsaved people of all time past, and they go into their Hellish eternity in The Lake of Fire. We go into our FOREVER Eternity as The Eternal Bride of Christ, ruling and reigning with Him, our BELOVED Bridegroom, FOREVER-AMEN!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    S.E. Brown

    >> I DO BELIEVE that ALL humans (“hybrid” and otherwise) along with ALL the animals, PERISHED in the Great Flood, EXCEPT for Noah,his wife, their 3 sons and their wives, and all of the animals that GOD brought into the Ark for His Salvation, and to “start over” with that one FAITHFUL & OBEDIENT man, Noah, and his family.

    Nope this is not true, because the bible says there were Giants again after the flood, so how is this possible? (see article) Did some survive the flood? No, only Noah and his family survived. So where did these Giants then come from? Did more angels come down and have sexual relations with women? Nope.

    Please read the article for a biblical explanation of the Nephilim and who the sons of God actually were. :)

  • steven

    [edited - deleted - please read the article for the truth on the Nephilim]

  • MARK MURRAY

    This entire article isn’t a joke?? Ha I can’t believe you people are arguing over Lucifer and what he’s doing with his domain his kingdom the world. You guys are missing the point. Jesus said in the bible on multiple accounts that his kingdom was not of this world. He’s in it but not of it, we all know as Christians that Lucifer when he became jealous he chose to fall and take 1/3 of the angels with him. Sons of God mean fallen angels. You people actually think every civilization that has myths, stories and legends of Giants are coincidence and just fables of imagination?? What about all the Egyptian hieroglyphs of cross species mixing dogs with humans birds with humans and so on what if those are real accounts of genetic splicing done by fallen angels that the humans of the day worshipped as gods?? Isn’t there a similar scenario in ancient Greek mythology of genetic manipulation?? Isn’t that the main reason God wanted to flood the Earth to wipe clean the atrocities the fallen angels had created?? They [fallen angels] hate God and lucifer seeks to go against God and his plan on a minute by minute basis!? The reason this stuff is so important now a days is technology has progressed to the point where we [humans] are genetically modifying EVERYTHING NOW!! From food to splicing pigs with jelly fish DNA to make them glow. Why bicker with each other of scripture and look at the fact that we ALL WANT TO LIVE AND PROSPER AND SPREAD THE GOOD WORD OF CHRIST AND WHAT HE DID BY COMING TO EARTH AND DYING FOR US SO THAT WE MAY LIVE AND ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD!! I don’t know about you guys or not but I don’t want to be fooled by all these Ancient Alien astronaut theorist that believe ancient aliens influence civilization and maybe potentially planted or genetically modified humans a long time ago and the idea that there is no god. I’m not a hater or anything like that I do believe you have every right to think, say and believe whatever you chose, but I just hate to see Christians fight over this subject?! Thats playing directly into lucifers hands. If you have time look at my blog to help you do some research on the subject and other things. also take some time to look up who Alice Bailey is and who Helena Blavatsky is and what the company is that Mrs. Bailey started in the early part of last century called originally Lucifer Publishing Company then changed it after pressure to Lucis Trust. They are involved heavily with the U.N. from the very beginning creation of the United Nations and are believers of the New Age or Ageless Wisdom philosophies… Then go read Mark 13: Matthew 24:
    Thank you and God Bless all!!

  • Mark Murray.

    Don’t you think it’s about time you believe Jesus who said:

    For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Matthew 22:30

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    >> I don’t know about you guys or not but I don’t want to be fooled by all these….

    That is weird because based on your comment you are being fooled by rejecting the scriptural relevance of this article and it seems you are quite happy to allow other people to follow after false teaching.

    I am sorry that you would rather believe occult teachings than the simple truth of the bible.

  • MARK MURRAY

    AMEN!!

  • louise

    Oh boy here I go again. In all truth I am one of those who support the theory of the Nephillim……….till now. Out come my old notes and I shall ask God to guide me into all truth. I don’t mind being wrong 1000 times but I just want the truth. Thank you for this article. I need to know from the word for myself what is truth and for awhile I have know that Tom Horn and Chris Putnim are false so yes I shall need to re-address my knowledge on this topic.

  • Louise wrote:

    Oh boy here I go again. In all truth I am one of those who support the theory of the Nephillim……….till now.

    We should rather support Jesus who said:

    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: (Luk 20:35)

    Angels – holy and fallen – cannot procreate. So what’s the point in having allegedly taken wives to themselves? Angels are spirit beings. Imagine women having sex with beings they cannot see and saying “Darling, where are you? Are you here? Give me a sign that you are here. Oh there you are, honey. Giggle, giggle, giggle.

    How Christians can believe such nonsense, goes far beyond normal reasoning. But then again, the Bible is always true when it says:

    That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. (Eph 4:14)

    Some Christians really need some kind of tutorship in married life and what it takes to make a normal marriage work. Not being able to see and touch your spouse is way beyond marital reasoning, as I said, and definitely does not contribute to a happy and successful marriage.

  • Pat Brown

    DTW,who do you believe were the “sons of God” referred to in Genesis 6? I am assuming by your text that we cannot know who they were, only who they were not? Is that correct or have I overlooked something contained in your text?
    Thank you for your faithful commitment to the truth.

  • Pat Brown

    DTW, since you are probably not tending this thread at the moment, I would like to suggest that you, at your convenience, study the use of the Hebrew word “asher” in the context of the Genesis 6:4 verse. When responding to my initial question above, let me know what you may or may not find in regard to the use of this word in that context. I sought out a good Hebrew-English transliteration of the Book of Genesis on the internet so that I could do my own reading of the verse in controversy in the Hebrew text. The transliteration I found is based upon the Masoretic text.

    http–qbible.com-Hebrew-old-testament-genesis-6.html

  • Pat Brown wrote:

    DTW,who do you believe were the “sons of God” referred to in Genesis 6? I am assuming by your text that we cannot know who they were, only who they were not? Is that correct or have I overlooked something contained in your text?

    Thank you for your faithful commitment to the truth.

    It couldn’t have been fallen angels because Jesus is not a liar.

    Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Mat 22:28-30)

    The first thing we need to clarify is, when were these fallen angels cast into Tartarus (a place of dense darkness)? Jude tells us they were cast into Tartarus after they abandoned their original or first estate (habitation) in heaven and that they will be confined to it in everlasting chains until the day of judgment. The term “first estate” simply means that they abandoned their original position as holy angels (separated unto God to love, obey and worship Him), and chose to follow Satan, the mastermind of the rebellion against God. They turned their backs on the purpose God originally had for them and in stead followed Satan. If these angels had been cast into Tartarus after they had fallen from their first estate and have since been kept in chains in Tartarus until the Day of Judgment, they could not possibly have come to earth to cohabit with earthly women to allegedly produce giants (Nephilim).

    The alternate scenario is that they sinned (left their first estate in heaven), came to earth, had sex with earthly women and were then cast into Tartarus. This is what the corrupt NET (New English Translation of the Bible), suggests. “So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbouring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.” The NET Bible is the only translation that says it in this way. If it were true that the fallen angels had sex with women, their relationship would have been a heterosexual one because they allegedly produced offspring. Homosexual relationships cannot produce offspring. It is therefore extremely odd for the NET Bible to say that homosexuals in Sodom indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to the fallen angels.

    The true meaning of Jude 1:6-7 is very simple. The first estate of the angels relates to God’s will for them and that was to love, obey and worship Him only. Similarly, the first or original estate God intended for men and women, was to have a normal, natural relationship within the confines of a marital bond in an atmosphere of love and respect for, and obedience to God. The men in Sodom and Gomorrah overstepped these bounds, left their original estate and pursued an unnatural relationship with other men. Therefore, the similarity between the fallen angels and the men in Sodom must not be sought in their respective sexual relationships – the angels’ alleged heterosexual relationship with women and the sodomites’ same sex relationships – but in their respective estates (God’s original purpose for them) which they willfully abandoned.

    At any rate, Jesus’ own words in Mark 12:24 and 25 entirely debunks the doctrine of fallen angels having had sexual relationships with women. “Jesus said to them, Is not this where you wander out of the way and go wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they arise from among the dead, [men] do not marry nor are [women] given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.” The simple reality is that spirit beings like angels cannot procreate, unless, of course, the fallen angels developed sexual organs after their fall to have sex with earthly women.

    This infamous doctrine is very dangerous. If spirit beings like angels were able to have sex with women and produce offspring, then it is but a step away to believe that the Holy Spirit had sex with Mary to bring forth Jesus. Indeed, there are many who believe this extremely blasphemous lie.

    As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Pe 3:16)

  • Pat Brown

    There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which (“asher”) were of old, men of renown. (Gen 6:4).

    Nimrod is said to have been a mighty hunter before God. His hunting and killing sprees were not limited to animals but to other men. Why? Because he believed that he was almighty God. He was renowned for this because he and his wife (Semiramis) and his son (Tammuz) were worshiped as gods. As such they were completely possessed and controlled by demons. They were not giants in stature (physique) but in superiority, conceitedness, pride, egotism, self-importance (you name it). If you go back to your Hebrew-English transliteration of the book of Genesis, you will see that “Nephilim” is not translated as giants in stature (physique) but as properly a feller, that is, a bully and tyrant. The dictionary defines feller as follows:

    fell3 [fel] Show IPA
    adjective
    1.
    fierce; cruel; dreadful; savage.
    2.
    destructive; deadly: fell poison; fell disease.

    Who or what made them like this? Their own sinful nature and above all the demons who possessed them.

  • Let’s look at this from a logical point of view.

    1) God created man and woman to become an inseparable bond of unity (one flesh) in marriage.

    2) The main reason for this marital bond (as one flesh in marriage) is to bring forth children who are to be reared in the fear of the Lord.

    3) It follows that heterosexual relationships within the confines of a marital bond is not sinful because God made man and woman each with his and her own sexual organs and particular functions to produce offspring (This is common knowledge, isn’t it?)

    4) If angels (spirit beings) were able to have sex with female earthlings (flesh and blood), the most obvious thing to assume, is that God must have created these angels with the means to have sex with flesh and blood. They could not have miraculously developed sexual organs after their fall. Only God can create and call things that are not into existence. Kapisch? Unless, of course, spirit beings like angels are able to have sex without sexual organs and produce offspring.

    5) Let’s assume that God created angels to have sex with female earthlings. Common sense tels us that they would then have been made for heterosexual relationships. Having already seen that a heterosexual relationship between a man and a woman within the confines of a marital bond is not sinful, why then would it have been a sin for angels to take unto themselves wives and have sexual relations with them? How on earth can a spirit being like an angel and a female earthling of flesh and blood become one flesh? That’s ridiculous.

    6) We know from Matthew 22:30 that the angels were not made to have sex with anybody. Therefore we must conclude that the sons of God in Genesis 6 do not refer to angels.

  • The doctrine that fallen angels married female earthlings and had children with them is a pagan, Neo-Gnostic, New Age teaching.

    THE NEW AGE AND THE BOOK OF ENOCH

    Not only Christians are enamored with The Book of Enoch. New Agers are equally head over heels in love with it. Elizabeth Clare-Prophet, New Ager and founder of the  Church Universal and Triumphant, wrote a book called “Fallen Angels and the Origins of Evil: Why Church Fathers Suppressed The Book Of Enoch And Its Startling Revelations”

    She wrote:

    “The question that has become the subject of my research is this: If evil angels used to be around on earth and, as Scripture seems to indicate, wore the guise of common men, why couldn’t they still be around? Given the state of affairs on planet earth, where would we find them today? Do they manipulate our government? Mismanage the economy?”

    “Therefore, I am prepared to prove and document that they (Nephilim) are with us today in positions of power in church and state as prime movers in matters of war and finance, sitting in the banking houses and on policy-making councils that determine the actual fate of mankind by population control and genetic engineering, the control of energy and commodities, education and the media, and by ideological and psycho-political strategies of divide and conquer on all fronts.”

    “The untold story of men and angels is a crack in the door of the full and final exposé of the Manipulators and the manipulated, the Oppressors and the oppressed. When I shall have penned the last word of the last volume of my ongoing essay, it will be clear, by the grace of God and his Holy Spirit — my Comforter and Teacher — that the embodied fallen angels, who are the main subject of Enoch’s prophecy, have been from the beginning the spoilers of the dreams of God and man.”

    If, as Elizabeth Clare-Prophet asserts, fallen angels are among us today in the flesh and holding sway over every human enterprise from politics to banking to the church, it follows that they must have been incarnated. In essence it defames Jesus Christ’s first advent in the flesh and suggests that his incarnation was not unique and just one of many. Furthermore, it downplays the fall of Adam and Eve and subsequently the entire human race into sin. Fallen angels who allegedly now live in the flesh among us are to blame for all the wrongs and chaos in the world and not the personal sin of every individual.

  • The following passage from Scripture serves to prove that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were not fallen angels but the seed of godly Seth who married ungodly women. It also proves how serious God regards marriage between a believer and an unbeliever (2 Cor. 6:14-16). Someone once said that when a child of God marries an unbeliever, Satan becomes his/her father in law.

    In those days also saw I Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab: And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews’ language, but according to the language of each people. And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin. Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives? And one of the sons of Joiada, the son of Eliashib the high priest, was son in law to Sanballat the Horonite: therefore I chased him from me. Remember them, O my God, because they have defiled the priesthood, and the covenant of the priesthood, and of the Levites. Thus cleansed I them from all strangers, and appointed the wards of the priests and the Levites, every one in his business; And for the wood offering, at times appointed, and for the firstfruits. Remember me, O my God, for good. (Neh 13:23-31)

  • Pat Brown

    Thank you, TL. You at least made an effort to answer the question concerning who the “sons of God” are without repetitively reasserting who they could not possibly be. My personal interest in this thread is not the laudable and necessary exposing of false teachers but rather the possibility of getting to the truth. I personally made a living out of exposing doctrinal error and false prophecy a la Dr. Walter Martin. However, I found through time that it was not my gifting and I was, unlike Dr. Martin, just indulging my carnal nature. So admittedly my primary interest here is coming to a conclusion concerning the issue in controversy- Who are the “sons of God” mentioned in Genesis 6:4?
    It is a large creation and attempting to identify by elimination can be exhausting. We are given all we need for life and godliness; so if there is no definitive explanation of these beings in the Holy Word of God, then I will patiently wait for its revelation. In the meantime, I will examine the scriptural evidence for the sons-of-Seth possibility.
    Also, does anyone have an opinion based upon scripture concerning the use of the Hebrew “asher” in Genesis 6:4?
    I am enjoying this communication and I will wait upon the Lord.

  • Pat Brown,

    Why is the word “ahser” so particularly interesting to you?

    I think we should take Jesus’ words in Matthew 22:30 very seriously.

  • Pat Brown

    http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/0834.html

    …line upon line, precept upon precept…

    Etymologists have translated the Hebrew word, “asher”, into the English word “when” in Genesis 6:4. Agreed? That translation should be determined by context since the Hebrew word asher has over a dozen possible definitions i.e. see link above.. Perhaps the dedication of some to the idea that there were giants upon the Earth in those days and afterward because the sons of God took unto themselves wives from the daughters of man is because one of the possible definitions of asher is “because of.” According to the resource I linked to above, asher is used with that meaning in several other texts, one of which is in Isaiah.
    There should be a contextual rule that determines asher as “when” and not as “because of.”
    Now for the sake of argument, let us say the contextual rule is not clear in this citation. Let us then also contemplate the possibility that the “sons of God” can only be angels based on Job. The result is that the approved translation “when” is totally dependent upon the belief that the “sons of God” are angels. Ergo, absent some kind of Mormon heresy or a possible sons-of-Seth explanation, the Nephilim cannot be offspring because of a union between sons of god and daughters of men.
    So, at this point I am just trying to make sure that the translators did in fact use that logic in deciding that “because of” (causal)would be problematic where as “when” (co-incidental)would not.
    I have learned through the years that translators benignly take liberties when faced with conundrums which they believe might cause stress or confusion for the reader.

  • Pat Brown,

    I have noticed that you haven’t once commented on Matthew 22:30. It is a pivotal text in a correct understanding of Genesis 6:4. Spirit beings like angels cannot produce offspring. It’s as simple as that.

  • Adam Clarke rightly divides the Word of God when he says:

    When men began to multiply – It was not at this time that men began to multiply, but the inspired penman speaks now of a fact which had taken place long before. As there is a distinction made here between men and those called the sons of God, it is generally supposed that the immediate posterity of Cain and that of Seth are intended. The first were mere men, such as fallen nature may produce, degenerate sons of a degenerate father, governed by the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, and the pride of life. The others were sons of God, not angels, as some have dreamed, but such as were, according to our Lord’s doctrine, born again, born from above, Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5,Joh_3:6, etc., and made children of God by the influence of the Holy Spirit, Gal_5:6. The former were apostates from the true religion, the latter were those among whom it was preserved and cultivated. Dr. Wall supposes the first verses of this chapter should be paraphrased thus: “When men began to multiply on the earth, the chief men took wives of all the handsome poor women they chose. There were tyrants in the earth in those days; and also after the antediluvian days powerful men had unlawful connections with the inferior women, and the children which sprang from this illicit commerce were the renowned heroes of antiquity, of whom the heathens made their gods.”

  • Pat Brown

    Jesus didactically clear there (Matthew 22:30) that the resurrected saints will not be allowed or will not be able to engage in physical union in their glorified bodies as is the case with the angels IN HEAVEN. What we must not do is make a leap about why the angels IN HEAVEN do not marry nor appear to have a gender reference or sexual function. This begs the question, Who are the “sons of God” mentioned in Genesis 6:4. Are they angels? Are they angels visiting Earth? Are they angels on Earth because they were cast out of heaven? Are they angels who voluntarily followed Satan and by so doing left their first estate which may mean that their last estate included a change in their essence and/or form? Are they the first generations of man? The Holy Word of God does not address such questions; therefore the best explanation under the illuminated text is that whoever the sons of God were they were not the angels IN HEAVEN. Anything beyond this appears to me to be rational conjecture at best. After some study, I must also believe that attributing the origin of the “sons of God” to Seth is also at best only a rational conjecture.
    As you know, a number of the theories floating about which concern these issues are derived from extra-biblical or non-canonical texts i.e. The Book of Enoch. Some of their proponents do not reference these sources but I have my suspicions.
    Finally, I do not have the answer; but I must submit to the Holy Word of God without reading between the lines.
    I have got a lot to learn and look forward to that day when we see Him face to face. Until then, I am confident that we have all we need for life and godliness.

  • Pat Brown

    This is a supposition:

    “As there is a distinction made here between men and those called the sons of God, it is generally supposed that the immediate posterity of Cain and that of Seth are intended.”

    It is generally supposed by whom?

    I am only attempting to point out that there is way to much supposition going on instead of true contextual exegesis? Such always leads to confusion. It isn’t embarrassing to have to admit that we sometimes just don’t have an answer; and pardon me, but I don’t think you or I have an answer to the question, “Who are the sons of God referred to in Genesis 6:4.

    I apologize for some of my convoluted and rambling exposition.

  • Pat brown,

    Your problem is you don’t believe what Jesus says in Matthew 22:30. Why don’t you believe Him? Is He a liar?

  • Pat Brown

    TL, please don’t put words in my mouth. I have already affirmed above the teaching of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, concerning our glorified state after the resurrection i.e. that we. like the ANGELS IN HEAVEN, will not engage in conjugal relations. My question to you is do you believe that your interpretation of the Genesis passage conforms with orthodox guidelines for an exegesis of the canon of scripture?

    I don’t think so; so I must conclude that your view is exegetically unacceptable. I will also say that while it meets the test of orthodoxy in that it does not compromise the faith and doctrine taught by our Lord and taught His holy apostles and prophets; it fails, however, to submit to the laws of interpretation of scripture which DO NOT INCLUDE SUPPOSITION.

    Eisegesis is not exegesis! Eisegesis is what you claim is being done by the proponents of the Serpent Seed teaching and the Giant Race teaching who you are inveighing against; and I agree with you on that. Keep on inveighing against them. But please don’t engage in that same approach to scripture that they are engaging in to make your point.

    My only purpose in joining this thread was to point out our limitations. Unless the Lord, through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, makes known to us this mystery of scripture; then it remains a mystery. Most of the great divides in the body derive from pride and/or prejudice. Let us avoid that; and rather let that same mind be in us which was in Christ Jesus. Let us agree with the inspired words Paul who said that God has and is abounding toward us in all wisdom and prudence having made known to us His will according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth; even in Him.. Ephesians 1:8-10 That’s not ecumenism; that’s God doing something only He can do.

    Once again, my response is not an argument; for me, it is only the question that remains unanswered, Who are the Sons of God referenced in Genesis 6:4? Explaining who they are not is not answering the question unless you first make an assertion of who only they might possibly be and then by elimination reduce that set of possibilities down to one and only one possibility. Sounds easy but it ain’t!

    May God bless you and keep you in His peace.

    Pat

    May God bless you and keep you…
    Pat

  • Pat Brown,

    And still you refuse to believe Jesus who said: “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” (Mat 22:30).

    Ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate your mind so that you may understand and accept Jesus’ words in Matthew 22:30. Stop being so stubborn.

  • Janet Sangha

    I am angry. You said Jacob Prasch mentions the Nephilim in ‘practically every’ video, book & conference.
    That is an absolute lie.
    I have listened to masses of his talks, read his books & been at conferences, & your statement is absolutely UNTRUE.I even had great difficulty in finding a reference to nephilim when searching countless U.Tubes.
    Also, on you page you indicate that he says women fell pregnant to these nephilim. Re. read his words.He said that they had intercourse with them – Yes, in occult, weird possessed people DO – practise this vile act.
    If he warns of the coming increase in the manifestation of demons, then he is not wrong.
    You have done great damage both to Jacob Prasch’s reputation & also to mine when recommending his works to others & being ridiculed – because of your article.

  • Janet Sangha wrote:

    Also, on you page you indicate that he says women fell pregnant to these nephilim. Re. read his words.He said that they had intercourse with them – Yes, in occult, weird possessed people DO – practise this vile act.

    Who are you going to believe – Jesus Christ or Jacob Prasch?

    Jesus said: “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Mat 22:30)

    Now, if you go back to Genesis 6:2 you will notice (so please put on your new set of glasses) that it does not only mention intercourse but marriage. They actually took wives and married them. You and Jacob Prasch seem to think that the women in those days were so stupid to marry spirit beings (fallen angels) they could not see, touch, smell and cuddle. Your view of Genesis 6 leads to the bizarre situation where the women says to her invisible husband. “Honey, I really want a baby from you. Where are you? Oh there you are, giggle . . . giggle. Oh dear, there you go again. I am serious. I want a baby from you because I just love to give birth to BIIIIIG GIANTS. Don’t worry, we will find a gynaecologist who can deliver BIIIIG GIANTS from normal size wombs.

    I am sick and tired of Christians who don’t know why God instituted marriage between a man and a woman. Now, listen very carefully in case you don’t know yet. It is NOT, I repeat NOT to only have intercourse but to have LITTLE BABIES, TODDLERS, KIDS, OFFSPRING, BROODS. KAPISCH???

    Prasch’s silly notion that the Nephilim (fallen angels, spirit beings, demons) only had intercourse with the women (they must have used some kind of contraceptive that prevented the women from falling pregnant) completely makes a mockery of Genesis 6:2. WAKE UP or make an effort to attend some kind of marriage counselling sessions to learn what marriage is all about. You will probably learn that it is not only about having intercourse as Jacob Prasch foolishly asserts BUT PRMARILY TO BEGIN A HAPPY LITTLE FAMILY (God willing).

  • Jacob Prasch says:

    The Nephilim, the fallen ones, are strange characters in Genesis. It would appear that they survived the Flood; whether the Nephilim who were in the land of Canaan when the Jews came to it are a different Nephilim from the ones who were spoken of before the flood is an issue over which theologians are divided; no one is really certain. Some say they are the same ones, some say they’re different. If they are the same, it would mean they had survived the deluge somehow. Nonetheless, these things are “the fallen ones”, and we’re told in Scripture that they copulated with human women. [Emphasis added]

    To even suggest that the Nephilim survived the Great Flood is an outright denial of:-

    1) God’s omnipotence. If the so-called Nephilim survived the Flood it would mean that God failed in his purpose and resolve to judge and execute the entire fallen world, except righteous Noah and his family. Is God a liar?

    . . . because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Pe 3:20)

    if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2Pe 2:5)

    The Bible clearly says that only eight souls were saved in the Flood. Is the Bible lying?

    2) Jesus Christ’s unique salvific work on the cross. If the Nephilim survived the Flood without the Ark, it would mean that some sinners are going to survive God’s Last Judgment without Jesus Christ who is our Ark of Salvation.

    Note carefully Prasch says:

    Some say they are the same ones, some say they’re different. If they are the same, it would mean they had survived the deluge somehow. Nonetheless, these things are “the fallen ones”, and we’re told in Scripture that they copulated with human women.

    “These things are the ‘fallen ones???'” Really? Were they the only “fallen ones?” Adam and Eve and their entire posterity are/were “fallen ones” and none of them survived the Flood except Noah and his family, eight souls in total, and they were definitely NOT giants.

  • louise

    The discussion of the Nephillim is a topic that has no winners. To get angry over it allows for the enemy to sneak in and make Christians angry. Anger is sinful. So who is the winner? Satan.

    There are 3 schools of thought on the Nehillim so those who think differently should allow each and very one to have their own thoughts on the matter as it does not change who we are in Christ Jesus. It does not make you unborn again as once saved always saved is my belief.

    Often we listen to well know teachers and we allow their thinking and teaching to persuade us instead of us doing our own research. Study to show yourself approved and trust the Holy Spirit to show you once you stop operating in the flesh by demanding your way is the only right way and wait upon the Lord to teach you all things.

    Debating this issue is pointless and very harmful to the body and it brings division amongst us.

    There is no cut and dry answer to the “Fallen Angel” situation and I for one would hate to put my will onto another.

    We have to pick up our cross and follow Jesus and not to allow this kind of debating to interfere with the real goal which is to bring the word of the Lord to the lost.

    Brothers and Sisters in Christ its a very sad day when I see you fight amongst each other. Don’t do it. Walk away, repent and forgive each other and allow each other to have their own view point. Let God do the rest.

    take care .

  • louise,

    There is the Truth and then there is the lie. The Truth is from God and the lie from Satan. Which of these do you prefer to follow?

    You said:

    There is no cut and dry answer to the “Fallen Angel” situation and I for one would hate to put my will onto another.

    Rubbish! The cut and dry answer is in Matthew 22:30 but you refuse to believe Jesus and his Truth. So, go ahead, you are welcome to follow Satan’s lies.

    Paul of Tarsus ceaselessly debated and refuted false teachers. Since when is debating pointless?

    Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3)

  • Louise.

    The discussion of the Nephillim is a topic that has no winners. To get angry over it allows for the enemy to sneak in and make Christians angry. Anger is sinful. So who is the winner? Satan.

    If you think “contending for the faith (the Truth)” is a matter of winning or losing, then you have no idea what the cross of Jesus Christ is about. Don’t you remember that He died on the cross so that we may be saved for eternity, but also that we may be made free from everything that pertains to Satan and his lies?

    One of the most dangerous things about a wrong reading of Genesis 6:1-4 is that it diverts the attention from the truth in regard to the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3 and its remedy in John 3:16. It is no longer the sin of Adam and Eve and their offspring (every individual human being born of women) that plunged the world in death, mayhem and chaos but the sins of the hybrids (giants, Nephilim) who were allegedly born of fallen spirit beings and women of flesh and blood. If it were true that these hybrids (Nephilim) were born of fallen angels (spirit beings) and women of flesh and blood, they must have been part of the world and as such Jesus died and paid the ransom for their sins as well. Can you see how the belief in the Nephilim, being the offspring of fallen angels and women, distorts the Gospel in John 3:16? It forces one to say that Jesus died for every single person in the world accept the hybrids (Nephilim) born of fallen angels and women. With this doctrine the ball is again back in the court of the Calvinists who believe that Jesus did not die for every single human being but only for the elect. No wonder Jacob Prasch could say those sweet things about John MacArthur before he showed his true colours in his statement that saints may take the mark of the beast and still be saved.

    The doctrine of the Nephilim being hybrids born in wedlock between fallen spirit beings and women of flesh and blood demeans, vilifies and slanders the cross of Jesus Christ. It is a very dangerous doctrine and belongs in Tartarus where some of the fallen angels are kept in chains until the Day of Judgment.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >>I want a baby from you because I just love to give birth to BIIIIIG GIANTS. Don’t worry, we will find a gynaecologist who can deliver BIIIIG GIANTS from normal size wombs.

    ROFTL – That was the funniest comment ever, Thomas! Yes, why don’t people think!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Janet

    >> I am angry. You said Jacob Prasch mentions the Nephilim in ‘practically every’ video, book & conference. That is an absolute lie. I have listened to masses of his talks, read his books & been at conferences, & your statement is absolutely UNTRUE

    Then you are not paying attention, just like you are not paying attention to the bible regarding the truth about the Nephilim.

  • Richard,

    Your problem is that you do not believe what Jesus said in Matthew 22:30. Is He a liar?

  • Richard

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Richard,

    Your problem is that you do not believe what Jesus said in Matthew 22:30. Is He a liar?

    @ THOMAS Well Thomas.. I have this problem when I talk to Muslims.. About The word begotten. They say “How can G-D “impregnate a woman”.

    well since all heavenly bodies are neither male or female in sex.

    you know the answer. You should think through it your self.

    my answer will be, found in your reply to my question.

    How if heavenly bodies are neither male or female. how could a virgin be impregnated by a spirit?

    The natural man can only see things carnally 1 Corinthians 2:14.

  • Richard,

    Your problem is that you do not believe what Jesus said in Matthew 22:30. Is He a liar?

    @ THOMAS Well Thomas.. I have this problem when I talk to Muslims.. About The word begotten. They say “How can G-D “impregnate a woman”.

    well since all heavenly bodies are neither male or female in sex.

    you know the answer. You should think through it your self.

    my answer will be, found in your reply to my question.

    How if heavenly bodies are neither male or female. how could a virgin be impregnated by a spirit?

    The natural man can only see things carnally 1 Corinthians 2:14.

    You are doing exactly what I warned against in one of my previous comments and that is to believe that the Holy Spirit had sex with Mary. The dangerous and infamous lie that fallen angels impregnated women to produce giants on earth, has led to this equally infamous and blasphemous lie. Carnal men who cannot discern the truth can only see things carnally, as you said. (1 Corinthians 2:14). If the shoe fits you, wear it. I must say, the shoe fits you 100% because you are thinking carnally 100%.

  • Les

    Good Afternoon, What these fellows are preaching and using as evidence – photshopped photos – brings Christianity into disrepute making Christians no better than the cheats and liars who are pushing their own agenders so people will not even want to know Jesus Christ. Christians follow CHRIST and no wehere in the life of Jesus can anyone find He has told any lies so we should be His example on earth. This means TRUTH should always be told – then people like Stephen Hawkens of this world would have nothing to ridicule CHRISTianity

  • Dave

    Chuck and Jacob are correct. The Scriptural evidence is overwhelming and yet stupid people rage against it. Why? Because they are blind. The truth will OUT so you WILL see it and soon. They have well defended their points so I will not bother adding to it.

  • Dave

    There is absolutely no Scriptural evidence that demons copulated with women to produce giants. Rubbish!

  • Heather

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Richard,
    Your problem is that you do not believe what Jesus said in Matthew 22:30. Is He a liar?
    @ THOMAS Well Thomas.. I have this problem when I talk to Muslims.. About The word begotten. They say “How can G-D “impregnate a woman”.
    well since all heavenly bodies are neither male or female in sex.
    you know the answer. You should think through it your self.
    my answer will be, found in your reply to my question.
    How if heavenly bodies are neither male or female. how could a virgin be impregnated by a spirit?
    The natural man can only see things carnally 1 Corinthians 2:14.
    You are doing exactly what I warned against in one of my previous comments and that is to believe that the Holy Spirit had sex with Mary. The dangerous and infamous lie that fallen angels impregnated women to produce giants on earth, has led to this equally infamous and blasphemous lie. Carnal men who cannot discern the truth can only see things carnally, as you said. (1 Corinthians 2:14). If the shoe fits you, wear it. I must say, the shoe fits you 100% because you are thinking carnally 100%.

    Thomas, I must say I find you very amusing because you apparently believe that people have to be married to procreate? Sadly it’s a state of affairs that occurs on a daily basis whether it was God’s intended purpose or not. Even God had a child out of wedlock. In fact he had child with a woman who was engaged to and then married another man. Now I will admit that the bible does not say that Mary had INTERCOURSE or even SEX with God, but it does very clearly state that she became pregnant with Jesus through/from/by/of the Holy Spirit/Ghost(Matthew 1:18)depending on which version you read, pretty much leaving the reader/interpreter to draw their own conclusions. Then you question why people believe that angels had sex with humans? Maybe they didn’t have SEX or INTERCOURSE with them but conceived children in the same manner that God conceived a child with Mary and people just assumed they had sex because, well by gosh, that’s how they would do it!

    I find your answers to people on this thread quite snarky and sarcastic at times (although the one about having babies with giants and finding a gyno to deliver said babies was pretty hilarious) when this is supposed to be an intellectual debate over Christian beliefs. Insulting people because they don’t read the same version of the bible as you do is counterproductive as well and does not endear anyone to your cause. You said that “Paul of Tarsus ceaselessly debated and refuted false teachers. Since when is debating pointless?” Debating becomes pointless when you trade intellect and faith for insults, such as when you basically accused Louise of being a Satanist and Richard of only thinking with his privates. Maybe I am just interpreting that wrong? :D I am still on the fence about my personal beliefs on the whole subject, but I am extremely interested in what others have to say. The original version of the bible has been re-interpreted so many times and there are so many different versions and so many different sects of Christianity that it is easy to get lost in who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s like the Tower of Babel all over again. Maybe it’s God’s way of forcing us to struggle to understand instead of thinking we know it all. Try that one on for size.

    “Never look down on anybody unless you’re helping him up.”

    Jesse Jackson

  • Heather or Jesse Jackson or whoever you are,

    You may find me amusing and sarcastic but I find it exceptionally blasphemous of you to accuse God of adultery. Your statement “Even God had a child out of wedlock. In fact he had child with a woman who was engaged to and then married another man” is extremely offensive. God did NOT HAVE a child with a woman as any human being may have with another human being. Jesus Christ has always been his Son from eternities past and He simply prepared a body for Him in the womb of the Virgin Mary. (Hebrews 10:5).

    Although you seemingly admit that the Holy Spirit did not have sex with Mary, your attempt to liken Mary’s pregnancy to that of the alleged pregnancies of women who supposedly had sex with fallen angels is equally blasphemous. It suggests that not only the Holy Spirit has the power to incarnate spiritual beings but that spiritual beings like fallen angels are equally adept to incarnate their own offspring. In fact, you are attributing deity to fallen angels because they supposedly produced offspring in the very same way the Holy Spirit incarnated Jesus Christ.

    You sanctimoniously find my “answers to people on this thread quite snarky and sarcastic at times (although the one about having babies with giants and finding a gyno to deliver said babies was pretty hilarious) when this is supposed to be an intellectual debate over Christian beliefs.”

    No one in his right mind can possibly have an intellectual debate with anyone who believes in sci-fi nonsense. If you, for instance believed that the Holy Spirit is God and therefore the only One who can incarnate spiritual beings, you would never have argued,

    “Now I will admit that the bible does not say that Mary had INTERCOURSE or even SEX with God, but it does very clearly state that she became pregnant with Jesus through/from/by/of the Holy Spirit/Ghost(Matthew 1:18) depending on which version you read, pretty much leaving the reader/interpreter to draw their own conclusions. Then you question why people believe that angels had sex with humans? Maybe they didn’t have SEX or INTERCOURSE with them but conceived children in the same manner that God conceived a child with Mary and people just assumed they had sex because, well by gosh, that’s how they would do it!”

    Once again, you are making fallen angels equal to the Holy Spirit, at least in the sense to “conceive children in the same manner that God conceived a child with Mary.” God did not conceive anyone with Mary. He prepared a body for his Son who had always been and always will be his Son.

    You wrote:

    The original version of the bible has been re-interpreted so many times and there are so many different versions and so many different sects of Christianity that it is easy to get lost in who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s like the Tower of Babel all over again. Maybe it’s God’s way of forcing us to struggle to understand instead of thinking we know it all. Try that one on for size.

    Are you saved? Do you really trust the God of the Bible? Here’s what Dave Hunt says:

    Well first of all, the Bible is God’s Word, okay? So God is going to watch over it. And he’s in charge of this process. When we work on that assumption, it kind of takes care of some of these questions. Furthermore, we have the early church. I don’t find any objection—for example we have Peter saying about Paul’s writings as being scripture and Peter doesn’t say yeah, but there are some of them that got lost unfortunately. We don’t find any indication in the New Testament that there were other books. Now the Old Testament is quoted, you know we have the Book of Acts and we have Christians writing letters back and forth to one another. We’ve got thousands of these letters. In fact, you could reproduce almost the entire New Testament except for, I think, fourteen or fifteen verses that Christians have quoted one another. We don’t find them quoting some other book, and then we say oh what happened? It’s lost; I guess there must be another book out there that was lost. We have the council’s meeting later on. It was not until 397 the Council of Carthage that council that set forth the 26 books of the New Testament. But many councils for a century before had been quoting from the New Testament. We don’t find anyone quoting from some other book. Something else was written and then it was lost and so forth. There’s no need for other records. You say well you had 15 apostles, I’m not sure, I’d have to go back and try to count them, but Paul was an apostle, so we have thirteen at least, but then he mentions some others, but we do have Matthew, Mark, and Luke. These are other records in addition to the apostles. Why do we need more? This is complete. There is no reason why there ought to be any other books.

    You advise me to –

    “Never look down on anybody unless you’re helping him up.”

    You can’t be serious, can you? How can you accuse me of looking down on anybody when you have no qualms to look down on God and his Word?

  • Heather wrote:

    Thomas, I must say I find you very amusing because you apparently believe that people have to be married to procreate?

    Now I understand why you are prone to the doctrines of demons. You should read your Bible. Genesis 6 clearly says that the sons of God “took them wives of all which they chose.” They married them. They did not have sex with them out of wedlock, as you suggest.

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