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Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way
ShadowsoftheBeast JacobPrasch Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way
Note:  Any articles referenced by DTW herein are not an endorsement of the author, their website, ministry or any links therein. Readers are cautioned to use discernment at all times and test everything by the Word of God. 

So I bought the book, “Shadows of the Beast” by Jacob Prasch and didn’t really make it past the Prologue.  I was kinda horrified at a number of things.  I will begin to list them in this article.  To start off with, Jacob Prasch is anti Pre-Tribulational rapture and bases his whole ‘idea’ on the premise that Jesus won’t come back and Rapture the church until the anti-Christ makes himself known.  He uses this verse as his only backup:  (2 Thessalonians 2:3)  “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

The problem is, Jacob is not telling us the truth, because if you go and read from the beginning of the chapter you find out that Paul is speaking to the Thessalonians, not about the Rapture, but about ‘the day of the Lord’.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1  Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2  not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
3  Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Talking of pre-tribulationists, Jacob Prasch says, “They must also fail to draw due distinction between the Great Tribulation and “the Day of the Lord” which are distinct

JacobPrasch Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

Jacob Prasch

time periods.”  [pg. 17]     Well I beg to differ.

What exactly is “the day of the Lord’”?  The day of the Lord is The Tribulation made up of two parts;  The Tribulation being first 3.5 years and the Great Tribulation being last 3.5 years, totaling 7 years from start to finish PLUS Jesus’ Second Coming and the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ!

So what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is saying is this: The Tribulation / “the day of the Lord” will not start until the apostasy comes first, and Jesus’ Second Coming (when He sets foot on earth) will not take place until after the anti-Christ has been reveal.

Jacob Prasch says, “The Rapture and Resurrection cannot happen until the “man of lawlessness” is revealed. [pg. 22]   Then he quotes (2 Thessalonians 2:3) “Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the apostasy come first, and the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction.”    He is saying that the word, “it” is the Rapture and Resurrection only.   This is FALSE.  As shown above, ‘it’ is “the Day of the Lord” which encompasses The Tribulation, Jesus’ Second Coming and the Millennial reign.

Regarding the Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
1 Now on the topic of times and seasons, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you.
2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come in the same way as a thief in the night.
3 Now when they are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will surely not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the darkness for the day to overtake you like a thief would.
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

Paul says: (1 Thessalonians 5:1)“But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.”  The word time here in Greek means χρόνος chronos (khron’-os) in which we get the English word chronology.  So, of the general chronology, of this particular time Paul says that no one needs write about it because they have ALREADY been instructed: 1) concerning the general time when Jesus said He would come and 2) concerning the particular time.  So the general time CAN be known, but not the actual time. And this is a FANTASTIC message.

In (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3) Paul says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

It is IMPORTANT to note that the whole 7 year Tribulation period (also known as “Time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7) is considered a time of JUDGEMENT from God, not just the last 3.5 years which some seem to think.   Judgments will be poured out on earth as the seven-sealed scrolls are opened consecutively by the Lamb.  Judgments of the Seals, Trumpets and plagues GROWS IN INTENSITY, until you reach 2nd half of the tribulation, namely the Great Tribulation which lasts for another 3.5 years, where God’s Wrath is finally poured out IN FULL on mankind.  If Jacob Prasch thinks that the first half of The Tribulation is not part of God’s wrath on earth, then I do not know what bible he is reading.  Maybe he should stop reading extra-biblical books like the Midrash and pay attention to the Word of God alone to get a clue.

So how does the Rapture of the church relate to “the Day of the Lord” which happens before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ by 7 years?  We know that “the Day of the Lord” will come suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night, in other words, The Tribulation starts suddenly and unexpectedly.  And the Rapture of the church MARKS the end of ‘the day of Grace’ and simultaneously MARKS the beginning of the ‘the day of the Lord’.  As soon as the church is removed the trials and tribulations of this world begin in all earnest, the birth pangs are over, the birth begins, and no one can escape it.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

Paul tells the born again believers to be alert and sober, to watch for Jesus!

We are not to look for Satan as Jacob Prasch want us too, we do not have to identify the him and his False Prophet! Jacob  deliberately writes a book twisting scripture trying to cheat saints out of the Blessed Hope. The Bible tells us we are look towards Jesus Christ only and comfort one another with the message that He will return.    (1 Thessalonians 4:1-18)  “15 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-18
1  Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2  For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3  For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4  That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5  Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6  That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7  For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9  But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10  And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11  And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12  That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jacob Prasch mentions many ideas and mis-conceptions in his book that make it sound like Pre-tribulationsists are a bunch of false teachers that need to be dealt with urgently.  I am going to list them and answer them:

1) He makes the statement that “The patriarch of Pre-Tibulationism, Dr. John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary admitted there is no stated biblical passage overtly teaching a Pre-Tribulational position.  Walvoord states, that “the Rapture is between the lines”. [pg. 16]     So because Dr John Walvoord changes his view now we must all fall down and beg for forgiveness because a so called patriach of Pre-Tribulationism says so?  I think not. Who is this guy anyhow? Never heard of him and I don’t want to know him either.   Walvoord can change his mind, but the Word of God stays the same.

2) Jacob states that Pre-Tribulationists are against identifying the anti-Christ and this is a BIG problem.  This is news to me, I had no idea that we were against identifying the anti-Christ because the bible tells us that  (1 Thessalonians 5:6) “we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.”    However the bible also does tell us not to focus our attentions on evil things, but to focus our attentions on Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:1-4
1 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory.

3) Jacob states; “The Greek term for “tribulation” (thelipsis) and the eschatological testing in Rev. 3:10 are precise synonyms despite linguistic evidence to the contrary.  Jesus in fact informed Christians that they would have tribulation in the world.” [ pg 17]       Oh boy, talk about trying to fool us, do you think we are of low intelligence? Of course Christians will have ‘tribulation’ in this world, but if we look at Revelation 3:10 it talks about the hour of temptation  which refers to THE Tribulation.    (Revelation 3:10)  “10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.    Jacob, should know, being the self proclaimed guru of all guru’s that an ‘hour’ in the Bible, denotes a period of time.  Having “trials and tribulations” is very different from THE Tribulation, a set period of time where God pours out His judgement on the earth for a full 7 years.

Revelation 3:7, 10
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Holy One, the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open:
10 Because you have kept my admonition to endure steadfastly, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

The promise of verse 10, like all the promises to these different churches, is for every true child of God“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  This is the Lord’s own pledge to those who love His Name and seek to keep His Word - they will not be left down here to pass through the appalling tribulation that is just ahead of those who “dwell upon the earth.” This expression is found frequently in the book of Revelation. It does not simply mean those who live in the world. A careful reading of the various passages in which this peculiar term is found will make it clear that “the earth-dwellers” are in contrast to those whose citizenship is in Heaven. They are persons who, while professing to be Christians, refuse the heavenly calling. They prove by their earthly-mindedness and worldly ways that they really belong to this world. All their hopes and their treasures are here. The Lord has said, “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”  [Emphasis added]   — Dr Henry Ironside

4)  Jacob states that Pre-Tribulationsists flounder because “they equate the removal of the Holy Spirit with the removal of the church.  This is a mistaken eschatology resulting from a mistaken pneumatology; they misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, which results in a further miscomprehension of 2 Thessalonians.” [pg. 17]    We misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Spirit now do we?   No Jacob.  We understand it fine.   It’s Jacob who is making up stories here to fill pages in his book.  Jacob believes that when we say that the Holy Spirit removes the church during the Rapture, he actually thinks we mean the Holy Spirit goes forever, good-bye, and the rest of the people on earth have to make do without Him.  Nope, we know that the Holy Spirit is then poured out as God once again shifts His attention back to the salvation of Israel during the 7 year Tribulation period.

Acts 2:17
17 ‘And in the last days it will be,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out my Spirit on all people, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.

5) He states 2 dangers to the Pre-Tribulationist view:

a) That we will not be prepared for the reality of the Tribulation.  Forewarned is forearmed” Jacob Prasch says [pg 19] .    Really?  What does he plan to do to hide away from God’s judgments during the first 3.5 years of the THE Tribulation?

b) His second concern is that we (Pre-Tribulationists) won’t know who the anti-Christ and False Prophet will be, and this according to Jacob Prasch is a huge problem.   This is ridiculous because as born again Christians we will have an inkling to who it could be because the bible tells us to keep watch for the signs of the times, as it means Jesus’ return is getting closer and closer.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

6)  Jacob then calls Pre-Tribulationsists false christs/prophets, deceiving the Elect.

a)  “Jesus Himself warned us of false Christs and false prophets in the Olivet Discourseyet just as Preterists falsely teach it not longer applies to Christians because it has all (instead of partially) transpired in the events surrounding A.D. 70, Pre-Tribulationsists are left agreeing with them that it does not apply to us because we have already been raptured before the Antichrist and False Prophet become and issue.” [pg. 20]

b)  Jacob says we are not the Elect, we are false Christians, false prophets;  “The rapture and resurrestion cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation Chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth with must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect  [pg. 21]

False Christ/False Prophet, deception perpetrated against the Elect;  this is tantamount to calling us Heretics = a dissenter from established religious teaching.

7) Jacob says more and more people are fortunately turning away from the “erroneous nature of Pre-Tribulationalism and the need understand how to properly identify the final Antichrist and False Prophet – the beast of Revelation 13.” [pg. 20]    Yes more people are apostacising and turning away from Jesus Christ and focusing their attention on Satan instead. You are helping fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “…. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes …”

8)  Jacob says, “If only those who have wisdom will understand how to calculate the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18), and if it requires the true believers (whose wisdom is Christ), then who will be here with the wisdom to do the calculation?  These cannot be the tribulation saints because if they had the wisdom they would not be here either.” [pg. 19]

Revelation 13:18
18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast’s number, for it is man’s number, and his number is 666.

The bible does not say we have to know, it says, let the one who has insight calculate the number.  By the time THE Tribulation starts and the Holy Spirit is poured out on the earth, people will have the wisdom to calculate the number of the beast and know who it is for sure.  Or is Jacob contradicting himself and saying that the Holy Spirit won’t be on earth during THE Tribulation?  Contradictions, galore in this book.

9)  This is a classic, Jacob accuses Pre-tribulationists of saying that the apostasy is actually the Rapture. He says, “Some even venture so far as to identify the apostasy (apostasia) as the Rapture, not, as the context dictates, the departure from the truth when a delusional judgment comes upon those rejecting the truth they once professed. (2 Thes 2:10-11) [pg. 20]     I have never heard of this before, Jacob must have dug deep to find this nonsense to add to his book to paint us with a tarred brush.   If one looks at how Jacob Prasch has twisted the truth, one would think he is under a strong delusion. (2 Thes 2:10-11)

10)  Jacob Prasch says “that a very good translation of Laodicea is as a compound Greek term lao-dikaomai meaning  “people’s rights” or “people’s opinions”. Pre-tribulationists may have a right to their opinion, but they have no right to expect others to believe it when they themselves admit they cannot prove it with a single verse or passage by an inductive exegetical means” [pg. 21]    Jacob, Pre-Tribulationists have never denied that they cannot prove their position.  If you have found someone who has changed their eschatological view, it’s only because if you look deeper you will find that more than likely their entire doctrine is  suspect.   If we look at you with a magnifying glass, we find that you twist scripture, fellowship with men who follow doctrines of demons, insist that Christians spend their time identifying Satan, and use extra biblical manuscripts called the Midrash to interpret the bible thereby completely negating the Holy Spirit – see below:

Jacob Prasch was asked by Richard Engstrom this question:

“Can a group of sincere, literate, English speaking people in isolation from the rest of the world, come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all they have in their possession is a KJV without notes (without Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus)?”

Jacob’s answer was complicated, high-handed – but his basic reply was “NO!”

Engstrom comments:

“No matter how you slice it, his answer was NO! He denies that YOU, dear reader, can come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all you have in your possession is a KJV without notes (Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus). You be the judge. Did I misrepresent his answer or not?”

Jacob’s full answer is now given:

“The Word of God was given in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic – not Elizabethan English. I accept the infallibility of the original manuscripts in the original languages, and not the infallibility of any translation, be it KJV or otherwise. Literacy in English is not a major factor, scripture demonstrates the importance of bringing out the original meaning in the original languages (e.g. Neh. 8:8 where after the captivity most people no longer knew Hebrew so the original Hebrew meaning had to be explained ). Hence, because I believe in the priority of the original languages (I have more faith in the bible than I do in translations of it ) MY ANSWER To YOUR FIRST QUESTION IS NO.”  —http://www.apostasynow.com/articles/midrash.html

Please read this article:  MIDRASH: THE CAMEL’S NOSE

We only need Jesus Christ to understand the Bible:

Revelation 3:7-8
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Holy One, the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open:
8 ‘I know your deeds. (Look! I have put in front of you an open door that no one can shut.) I know that you have little strength, but you have obeyed my word and have not denied my name.

The Lord spoke of Himself as “…the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open” (3:7). This verse is clearly a reference to Isaiah 22:22. In that Isaiah passage he who had the key of David was the treasurer of David’s house. There it is said of Eliakim, “The key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.” The remainder of the passage shows that Eliakim was a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, the one on whom should be hung all the glory of His Father’s house. He, by His Spirit, opens the great treasure-house of divine truth, and none can shut it. On the other hand where there is perversity of spirit and an unwillingness to walk in the truth, He shuts and none can open. So He has said elsewhere, “If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness” (Matthew 6:23).

It is blessed to realize that, while Christ is said to have the key of David, there is another sense in which we see that He is the key. By the presentation of Himself to the souls of His people He opens up the treasures of His Word. Thus Christ is the key to the Holy Scriptures, and no other is needed. To understand the Bible you need only to know Christ. [Emphasis added] —  Dr Henry Ironside

The Bible is clear, no Midrash, no other extra biblical manuscripts or tools, just Jesus Christ is needed.  Jacob Prasch does not tell us the truth when he tells us that we need other tools to understand the Bible.

Midrash Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash WayWhat is Midrash?

If we go and read about Midrash here on Moriel’s website, we can clearly see that something is very very wrong.

The Midrash definition is extremely vague, so much so that Jacob Prasch says,

Unless someone has been educated in Judaism, Hebrew, or theology, it is easier to demonstrate midrash than to explain it.”   

How peculiar, why can’t he explain it, are we not smart enough?

Strangely enough Wickipedia can explain it.

Midrash (Hebrew: מדרש‎; plural midrashim, lit. “to investigate” or “study”) is a homiletic method of biblical exegesis. The term also refers to the whole compilation of homiletic teachings on the Bible.

Midrash is a way of interpreting biblical stories that goes beyond simple distillation of religious, legal or moral teachings. It fills in many gaps left in the biblical narrative regarding events and personalities that are only hinted at. [1]

So it helps you “go beyond” teachings and “fill in the gaps” of the Bible;  that is very interesting – basically you are adding “extra biblical revelation” to the bible.  Jewish websites and others will admit Midrash is a collection of stories, allegory, history, scientific observations and legend.  Jacob claims the word Midrash is supposedly mentioned in the bible, as he claims here in this article:   What does the Word of God Actually Say About Midrash?.  But then we need to ask ourselves so is Enoch mentioned in the Bible, this does not mean we now can read the Book of Enoch as something inspired.

I went to go and look through the bible for the word “Midrash” and I can’t find it, but then after reading Jacob Prasch’s articles, the word “Midrash” does actually appear, as the word “story”  - this is what Jacob deems to be “Midrash” in the Bible.

Strong’s Number H4097 matches the Hebrew מִדְרָשׁ (midrash), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV (2Ch 13:22 – 2Ch 24:27)

1) study, exposition, midrash, record, story
a) writings of a didactic nature
b) midrash – transliteration of the Hebrew word

Root Word (Etymology):   Hebrew דָּרַשׁ (darash) – Strong’s Number H1875

meaning to resort to, seek, seek with care, enquire, require, search be it of God or of heathen Gods.

Hmmmm.  Really?  I think someone is a trying to make the Bible fit the Midrash.  Just because the word ‘story’ means Midrash, and the root of it means to ‘seek’,  it does not mean we can use stories and fables or ancient methods of study to investigate the bible.

Prasch states:

“You will never understand the Book of Revelation with the kind of limited approach to biblical interpretation that is taught in Protestant seminaries. Midrash is like a quadratic equation or a very complex second order differential equation, a thirteen or fourteen step equation. Some people take the first step of grammatical-historical exegesis and think the equation is solved”  [Emphasis added]The problem with the Reformers is that they only went so far. They made rules governing the application of their grammatical-historical system in order to refute medieval Roman Catholicism, and many of those rules are still taught in theological seminaries today.  [Emphasis added]

Jacob Prasch claims that you need to be well educated in Greek, Hebrew and a whole host of other rabbinical teachings to “truly understand scripture“.  This sounds very much like Roman Catholicism who only speak in Latin (so that you don’t understand) and tell their converts that they will never be smart enough to understand the bible; so you need to rely on specialist experts in all forms of theological studies to give you the message instead.

As I mentioned above, scripture is clear, you only need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be able to understand scripture and Christians through-out the centuries have done fantastically fine without Jacob Prasch and his Midrash.   Judging by the way Jacob has handled such simple scriptures as those mentioned at the very beginning of the article, I would say that a Reformer from a few hundreds of years ago could run circles around him and teach him a thing or two on CORRECT BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION.

But according to Prasch, it is just so terrible to think that the Reformers only went so far in their faith and could go no further without the Midrash. [insert sarcasm here]  It would seem Jacob Prasch is trying to take us back to the dark ages where the little people have to listen to the big people with regards to what the Bible says.  See (Galatians 4:2-12)  This is unbiblical.

And now we come to the FACT that there is a connection between Midrash and Kabbalah.  Surprise!!  Now, they say that the earlier Midrash differs from the later Medieval versions, but I mean who is pulling the wool over who’s eyes here?   These Jewish manuscripts, writings and studies are not OT Biblically inspired – this is where some of the Apocrypha (Magisterium, Canon Law, Sirach, Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Susanna) comes from.

Let’s go back to the Wickipedia definition of Midrash:

MidrashKabbalah Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

“Midrash (Hebrew: מדרש‎; plural midrashim, lit. “to investigate” or “study”) is a Hebrew term referring to the not exact, but comparative (homiletic) method of exegesis (hermeneutic) of Biblical texts, which is one of four methods cumulatively called Pardes. The term midrash can also refer to a compilation of homiletic teachings (commentaries) on the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), in the form of legal and ritual (Halakhah) and legendary, moralizing, folkloristic, and anecdotal (Aggadah) parts.”

What is Pardes?

“The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of these four approaches, which are:

eshat (פְּשָׁט) — “plain” (simple) or the direct meaning.
Remez (רֶמֶז) — “hints” or the deep (allegoric) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (seek) — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in gold) — “secret” (mystery) or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

Really?  “Secret, mystery, mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.”

It would seem that mysticism is denounced when it comes to other preachers who delve into it and even Jacob and his ministry are quick to label them as false teachers, but it is biblical when it comes to Midrash?  How is this possible? What stories has he spun over the eyes of those following him, that they have swallowed up the lie?  The Midrash is nothing but a very sly and sneaky way of getting believers involved in mysticism.

Multiple meanings for the Bible?

“Midrash makes heavy use of allegory and typology to illustrate and illuminate doctrine, but never as a basis for doctrine. It sees multiple meanings in Bible texts found in strata,”   [Emphasis added] —http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

  1. Using Midrash to search through the Bible to illustrate and illuminate the doctrine – instead of the Holy Spirit who illuminates.
  2. You need a Jewish Rabbi to explain Midrash to you before you can have the “secret key” that will open the door to understanding.
  3. Use Midrash to searching for “secret knowledge
  4. Using Midrash to finding “multiple meanings” in the Bible.   Apparently the only way to find God’s proper truth is if you have multiple meanings.

Gnosticism teachers that the Bible cannot be understood as it is, you need to have a “secret key” which unlocks the “hidden mysteries” in the texts.  This is EXACTLY what Jacob Prasch presents to us under the banner of Christianity.

The Bible says…

John 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You do not need to understand Hebrew or Greek, or have a degree to understand the Bible, all you need is the Holy Spirit abiding in you.   Anyone who tells you that you need to look outside of scripture in order to understand it is not telling you the truth.

————–

Some Close and Personal Friends of Jacob Prasch:

JohnMacArthur1 Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

John MacArthur

a)  Jacob Prasch says that Dr John Walvoord is a good man, excellent preacher and author like John MacArthur. [pg 16]

Who is John MacArthur?  A Calvinist who preaches that Jesus did not die for the whole world but for the Elect only. He preaches that you are not saved, you are CHOSEN by God before birth and that if you are Elect your children will be Elect.  John MacArthur denies the Blood of Jesus Christ and says it’s ‘just liquid’.  John MacArthur believes in a works based Salvation, called Lordship Salvation.

b) Jacob says, “Among these bretheren  are some of my closest personal friends who seek to uphold biblical truth in an age of apostasy where it is being eroded.  Among these are Dave Hunt, Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Dr David Hocking, Pastor Chuck Smith, Dr Thomas Ice, Dr Randolph Price…” [pg. 16]

I’m only going to focus on Chuck Smith.  Chuck  Smith is the founder of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa and the Jesus Movement in the 70′s that  Jacob Prasch says he belonged too in the hippie days.  See Shadows of the Beast [pg.19]

Chuck Smith close and personal friends with Jacob Prasch

Who is Chuck Smith:

LonnieFrisbee Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

Lonnie Frisbee

ChuckSmith1 Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

Chuck Smith

“Actually “the Calvary Chapel Movement was essentially spawned by Lonnie Frisbee, not Chuck Smith. It was Chuck’s embracing of Frisbee that drew the massive crowds of young hippies during the Jesus Movement…who then grew up and were Institutionalized by the opportunistic and shrewd Businessman, Chuck Smith.

Can a healthy Spirit-Led Movement of God be founded upon a man, Lonnie Frisbee, who was doing LSD and having homosexual relations with other men on Saturday…and then preaching the “real” Jesus Christ and Gospel on Sunday?

Lonnie Frisbee’s life and struggles with drugs and homosexuality is well documented. He died of AIDS as a result of his homosexual lifestyle. A very sad end I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

Kathryn Kuhlman, another Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith partner that was instrumental in the genesis of the Movement is hailed as the major influence in Benny Hinn’s life.  The hyper-Charismatic “faith healer”,

KathrynKuhlman1 Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

Kathryn Kuhlman

Kuhlman, was very close to Smith and very much a part of the early days of CC.

Chuck Smith intervened with a Church Discipline Process with regards to David Hawking’s Adultery and sex scandal, circumventing another Church’s Scripturally motivated disciplinary process.

The list of scandals and cover-ups in Camp Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith’s Progeny, is astounding. This site documents the tip

ChuckSmith RickWarren Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

Chuck Smith and Rick Warren apostacising together

of the Ice Burg (but we’ll get to many others in time, and the list keeps growing as more people contact me with information).

A defense I’ve heard from some in the Online Discernment community, the supposed “Watch People” of “Sound Doctrine” and “Apostasy” etc. is, “Well, Chuck Smith is a gifted bible teacher”…and that excuses the Scandals and lack of following Scripture in dealing with sin in the Camp.

Well, what happens if Chuck Smith is preaching Heresy with regards to a Core Doctrine of the Faith? Can Chuck Smith be “wrong” and have a “wrong interpretation of Scripture” on a foundational issue like the Resurrection? Personhood? (Who the “real me” is).

I submit that Chuck Smith cannot be wrong on the Doctrine of Resurrection and be trusted as a true Prophet of God. The issue of Resurrection is key to our Faith. If one is “wrong” on the Resurrection…then others (Gnostics, Emergents, RCC, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, you name it) can be “wrong”, too, and it shouldn’t rise to the level of calling out the different “interpretation”…if we can just ignore something as serious as a Heretical View of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the Saints.”

“What does Chuck Smith say about who “we” are as “the Real Me”? What is Chuck Smith’s teaching regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection?

Chuck Smith teaches that (in his own words, see video) that “the REAL ME is spirit”…classic Gnosticism.

Chuck Smith goes on to teach a Doctrine of Resurrection of both Jesus Christ and the Saints where “your spirit LEAVES your body” and “goes into a NEW body” after you die. Classic Jehovah’s Witness Theology.

He goes on to explain that Jesus Christ had a “similar but different” body when He Resurrected. It is not the “same” Physical Body that has been Glorified, but rather the “spirit” of Jesus (and our “spirit” who is the “real me”) LEAVES our “old bodies” and then migrates to a “new body”…some Quasi-Spirit Body. This is Heresy.

I call on Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel to repent of their Heresy regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection. They cannot be “wrong” on this Core Foundational issue as the Gnostics and Jehovah’s Witnesses are. If we compromise the integrity of this Foundational Truth…then we are on a Slippery Slope and we are preaching a “different Jesus”.

There is no “old body” in the Tomb that Jesus arose from. Jesus Christ has “one” Literal Physical Earthly Body that was Glorified. We have one Literal Physical Earthly Body that is “the real us” that is Glorified.   Jesus’s “spirit” and our “spirit” does not “leave our old body” and migrate to some “new body” that is a Quasi-Spirit Body. That is JW and Gnostic and off the Reservation of Christian orthodoxy.”      [Emphasis added]    —http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=998

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14 Be you not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel?
    
Ephesians 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
 
—————-
See this article:  TO THOSE OF YOU WHO WANT TO STAND FOR BIBLE TRUTH.
—————-
pixel Jacob Prasch   Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

254 comments to Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Chris

    >> I have just phoned persons with this book and they all say that Jacob is using the term “slain in the Spirit” as a modern term to be understood correctly. In other words where people were “slain in the Spirit” (modern terminology) is actually not as the phenomena today, but people fell down on their faces in adoration and reverence. This happened in both Testaments. He uses “Slain in the Spirit” as familiar terminology to explain persons going down on their FACES in worship and reverence and not falling backwards as what is happening today. In other words those who use the phrase “slain in the Spirit” as the phenomena happening today is not the same as what has happened in the Old and the New Testaments. (Please read that part of the book again)

    Ok, I’ll read it again…let’s see:

    When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last (Rev. 1:17)

    Contrast this to Zechariah 4:

    Then the angel who was speaking with me returned and roused me, as a man who is awakened from his sleep (Zech. 4L1)

    The phenomenon of being ‘slain in the spirit’ occurs many times in both Testaments. They fell down in God’s presence. But the term comes from Revelation 1:17 where John says he, “fell at His feet as a dead man.” It happened to Daniel as recorded in Daniel 10:9 “Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.” [Verse added by DTW]

    “George Whitefield was very disturbed when he saw people being “slain in the spirit” at John Wesley’s meetings, but a few days later it happend in his own meetings. Granted a lot of it found today is just nonsense, pushing people down or people getting stirred up emotionally by a hypnotic and manipulative speaker. But the real thing is scriptural-it does happen.” The Dilemma of Laodicea, Jacob Prasch, 2010, page 28,29

    1) Zachariah fell face down in a deep sleep in GOD’s PRESENCE and God gave him a vision, Daniel fell face down in a deep sleep in the Angel Michael’s presense. John fell down into a deep sleep in JESUS CHRIST’S PRESNECE
    —- 1 GOD was present and gave a vision, The Angel Michael was present and gave a message, Jesus Christ was presenet and spoke
    —- 2 They fell face down
    —- 3 They fell into a deep sleep

    I do not know how he can even remotely call that being ‘slain in the spirit’ or compare that to what is happening today.

    Now, he claims George Whitefield and John Wesley had GENUINE ‘slain in the spirit’ taking place in their church? Really? Was God, an Angel, or Jesus Christ present? Did those people receive a message or a vision like those in the Bible?

    He says a lot of it is unscriptural but the real thing does happen today and from what I gather it could be quite often? Hmmm….

    Okie dokie then.

    I’m only mentioning this because you told me to read the book again, so I did, and I still read the same thing I read the first time I read it – It hasn’t change, unfortunately for Jacob Prasch.

  • Chris

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Deborah. the real thing happening today is people who are saved and an adoration fall down on their faces worshipping God vs the false stuff where people are being pushed over.

    You are reading things int what Jacob meant that is not true

    “I do not know how he can even remotely call that being ‘slain in the spirit’ or compare that to what is happening today”

    He is not comapring here he is showing you the opposite.

    Deborah sorry I just do not have the time to quibble over these issues as I am a working person.

    I know Jacob personally and know for a fact that he does not condone “slain in the Spirit” as you read into his book.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Chris

    Regarding Jacob Prasch supporting ‘slain in the Spirit’ – He supports it, it’s there is black and white and I am not reading into it.

    He says, “George Whitefield was very disturbed when he saw people being “slain in the spirit” at John Wesley’s meetings, but a few days later it happened in his own meetings. Granted a lot of it found today is just nonsense, pushing people down or people getting stirred up emotionally by a hypnotic and manipulative speaker. But the real thing is scriptural-it does happen.” So Whitefield and Wesley had genuine ‘slain in the spirits’ happen according to Jacob Prasch, yes he says there is a lot of nonsense found today…But the real thing is scriptural-it does happen like what what happened at Whitefield and Wesley’s meetings.”

    Please do not let your friendship with JP cloud your judgement.

  • Michael

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    George Whitefield was very disturbed when he saw people being “slain in the spirit” at John Wesley’s meetings, but a few days later it happened in his own meetings. Granted a lot of it found today is just nonsense, pushing people down or people getting stirred up emotionally by a hypnotic and manipulative speaker. But the real thing is scriptural-it does happen.

    Prasch wrote:”But the real thing is scriptural-it does happen”

    It does happen means he agrees, full stop. There is no question that he sanctions being slain in the spirit…unless of course he talks with forked tongue…not even debatable.

    This highlights a huge problem in charismatic teachers/preachers/authors…they are so ambigious…never really make clearcut sense. They seem to enjoy double meanings to confuse.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Debs and Michael,

    I wholeheartedly agree with you both! Jacob Prasch has been very subtle and SLY in what he says..indeed it is ‘camouflage’ of a sort, so that, I believe, he can backtrack.

    Satan loves to confuse the undiscerning and those that just follow blindly after a man’s teachings, and not biblical truth!! These men/women twist and hide things so subtly it can be hard to find a lie/deception.. a bit like ‘where’s Wally’!! Only if you look through a discerner’s glasses, with guidance from the Holy Spirit.. you can spot him!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Thank you Myfanwy!!

    I thought I was seeing things, but I know I am not.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Thank you Michael

    Indeed he does sanction it. Also to call what happened in the bible, ‘slain in the spirit’ is just wrong.

  • Redeemed

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Chris, I have not read JP’s book, Shadow of the Beast, but I have seen quotes from those I trust who have.

    There is a concerted attack on the pretribulational Rapture position today as never before. So-called discernment ministries are tearing it to shreds and throwing it on the ash heap along with balanced dispensational theology.
    I find this both sad and alarming.

    I am not a student of JP’s eschatology, but have been told that he has never held to pretrib, but rather to more of a mid-trib position. Christians can have honest differences of opinions and have respectful discussion, but if Mr. Prasch called those who believe in pretrib HERETICS, this crosses the line. This is putting many faithful Christians in the same category as the worst of false teachers! Can you turn a blind eye to this?

  • John Chingford

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Hi Debs

    I too have grave concerns about Jacob Prasch’s teachings in recent years. Also I have concerns about his associations. I wrote to him on a number of occasions and to his co-workers (never got a reply) about his association with Chuck Missler, Chuck Smith, Roger Oakland etc etc. Also I saw his very weak reply (on the internet) regarding Moriel’s seeming endorsement of Lausanne.

    Then Jacob preaches Arminianism and some very strange eschatology teachings. He overuses the Talmud, Midrash etc to interpret the Scriptures. I have too many issues with his approach to a number of things. He used to “tickle my ears” with his seeming Judaic insight into the scriptures, but over the last few years (since I started my blog) I have wised up to his iffy teaching through all my investigation and research.

    Jacob is STILL very influenced by his pentecostal background and by the exaggerated stories he probably heard. I also have a background in Pentecostal churches but have had my eyes completely opened to all the lies and pretence they used to promote with their version of Christianity. I have first hand experience of the tactics they used to win people to Christ through emotionalism, lies, pretended power etc etc. Their justification has always been “the end justifies the means”.

    I personally do not know about whether being “slain in the spirit” actually happened during John Wesley’s time. I don’t trust George Whitfield because he tried to persuade in favour of the slave trade. John Wesley was told to preach faith until he got faith. Did he ever reach that point? The records we have today about John Wesley tend to probably mostly come from charismatics. John Wesley (like Jacob Prasch) believed in a works salvation. This means that they had to use “methods” to obtain God’s favour.

    The long/short of it, is that we really cannot be dogmatic whether those we used to trust were telling the truth or not or whether it was from God or not.

    Certainly when individuals are in a very close walk with the Living God, powerful things CAN happen but it will always be scriptural because God knows that we need a plumbline to test these things. Do we have any scripture verses that show people falling at the laying on of hands? The examples Jacob gave were personal individual experiences WITHOUT any other people present to “push” them. Most of these were OT saints who were not filled with the Holy Spirit but only experienced the occasional anointing. John was an Apostle who was entrusted with the foundations of the church. Therefore, I do not believe we can use them as justification for what is happening today.

    Our focus MORE THAN EVER needs to be on our personal walk with God through devotion (prayer and Bible study) and obedience. Let’s stop looking to “super” men as our guides of truth. Many tend to measure a teachers value as an authority (on truth) based upon their “so-called” experiences or “so-called” acts of apparent power. If we trust all those who SEEM to have power then we will be deceived into following a wrong path IF WE DO NOT test it with scripture.

  • Andy

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Jacob Prasch presents himself as if he is some kind of “discernment guru”, but then he fully supports Billy Graham and defends the Grahams, without telling you that the Grahams have been pro-catholic for many decades, that the Grahams believe the catholic fake “gospel” is the true Gospel, that the Grahams have supported new agers and Bible deniers over the years.

    So that should tell you something about Prasch’s “discernment ministry”.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Andy

    Yes, thanks for this info. I have heard about this too. From what I gather, Jacob Prasch says one thing but does another. So if you ask him, he will say no, he is against Ecumenical organisations and does not associate with such people, yet you will find he is affiliated with many.

  • John Chingford

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Good point Andy. I forgot to mention that.

    I also meant to mention something else. He endorse on his site a new house group movement which claim to follow on NT lines of church behaviour. The leadership of this group may be influencing Jacob somewhat. They are charismatic but opposed to the restoration movement style of the 1970′s. However, these groups of fellowship are virtually cultish in the way they do things. They do not believe in one man leadership but determine the Will of God by consensus of opinion i.e the show of hands. For example the consensus of opinion was that it was okay for parents to allow their children to watch Harry Potter films, therefore it MUST be God’s will. This group follow many other such dangerous practices and yet Jacob is in fellowship with the pioneer of this group.

    I have also asked Jacob about this, but again no replies.

    I wrote about that “biblical church” house fellowship movements on my blog some time ago. Please read from this point [removed] and then let me know your thoughts.

    I actually believe they are trying to get back to real Christianity but are missing the point and are opening themselves to further deception through a lack of proper structure and leadership.

    The pioneers of this group are spreading these ideas in many Christian assemblies and influencing those like Jacob.

  • Colin Ford

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Deborah,
    I am not sure how Jacob Prasch has become the ‘centre of attention’ on this site, but I agree much with what has been said about Mr Prasch here. Unquestionably he is a very intelligent, complex and learned man who I understand is very conversant in the biblical languages. I have learnt much from his teachings in the past.
    However it was about eighteen months ago that I became very troubled by some of his teachings and associations.
    He does indeed make much of Nehemiah 8.8 (read the context)and uses it, I believe to promote himself as some sort of ‘guru’ that we must listen to in order that the Scriptures (especially the OT) may be better understood by us lesser mortals.
    He ‘shares the platform’ with all sorts (pre-trib ministries), even ecumenical ministries. I believe he is very much a man who ‘Hunts with the hounds, and runs with the hares’.
    His original position on the rapture, wasn’t against those who disagreed with the timing of it, but only against those that denied it’s biblical veracity.
    I did read his book ‘Shadows of the Beast’ (soon after publication) and your quotes are ad verbatim regarding his views on those who hold to the pre-tribulation rapture belief (I just read the pages quoted).
    From memory I am not sure if he used the actual word ‘heretic’, anywhere else, however I believe that you are correct in your interpretation of his statements to use such language.
    I am sure you would agree with much in ‘Shadows of the Beast’ regarding the heretical Word Faith and Charismatic false teachers that he names, and a lot else besides.
    I often listen to Bridge Lane (I don’t agree with their rapture views). And Jacob has often preached there, and Truth for Youth etc. I am sure they wouldn’t invite him again if they read his book! But there again I often wonder?
    The old secular saying; ‘Money makes the world go round’??.
    Kind regards.

  • Redeemed

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    The more I delve into the teachings of Jacob Prasch, the more offbeat teachings I find.

    In regards to the Rapture, Prasch believes that the Church must be present to identify the Anti-Christ before the Rapture can occur. His emphasis in his book “Shadows of the Beast” seems to be on the Anti-Christ which is the exact opposite of where our focus should be. He holds a twisted view of what is the “Blessed Hope”.

    Also I found it quite startling to see what he lists as 3 Aspects of Salvation:

    Having been saved
    Being Saved
    Going to be Saved
    Been Born Again
    Going to be Born Again
    Going to be Born Again

    He seems to run everything through the filter of the Midrash. Sorry to say I find his beliefs quite strange.

    He regards the Pretrib position as DANGEROUS because the Church will not be forewarned about the Anti-Christ.

    On the one hand he claims to respect those who hold to Pretrib and lists some as friends. Then on the other hand he says that those who hold to Pretrib are included with false prophets. You can’t have it both ways.

  • Louise

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Chris

    >> Regarding Jacob – as I have said earlier there are a FEW things I do not agree with Jacob – and I might be wrong- but please remember that Jacob has done much more with regards to apologetics than you and I together and I do not see the point of bringing him up in our discussions.

    Wow, you see I think for myself and let the Holy Spirit dictate, I don’t let another person dictate my thoughts for me. Jacob might be HIGHLY intelligent and speak several languages, but that does not make me stupid.

    The fact that Prasch insinuates that those who believe in pretrib rapture are HERETICS in his book, “Shadows of the Beast’ makes me wonder about him…
    Oh and the fact that he says “the phenomenon of being ‘slain in the spirit‘ occurs many times in both Testaments” The Dilemma of Laodecia pg. 29
    And that he believes in the Nephillim (demons came down and had relations with woman) which he talks about often in a lot of his videos – why I do not know.

    Hi Debra…..I myself have studied the fallen Angels having relations with woman and must admit I have no other answer to that position on why the flood took place. iIIDo you have a topic noted down where I may read up on your take in this matter.

  • Chris

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Deborah.

    I was not going to get involved further regarding the issues John raised and the accusations against Jacob, but due to his postings on your blog, I decided to forward it through to Moriel for reply.

    I was not going to come back regarding these issues with Jacob, but was asked by Jacob to post his reply to John’s accusations towards Jacob.
    I also received an answer from Dave Royle in this regard and is as follow:

    ————————
    Hi Chris

    >> Thanks for this, I have not heard of the guy but he has some strange words to say about Jacob and some things I do not know about, for example the Lausanne council. I would not think that Moriel would have anything to do with that. I just wonder if this guy has anything to back up his insane accusations and criticism?

    >> I have forwarded this to Jacob to see if there is a relationship between ourselves and Laussane and see if there is any statements on the various issues already on the web site. Of course a lot of his criticism comes from the fact hes a Calvinist (Jacobs Arminianism) but as we know modern day Armenianism and even Calvinism is miles from its originators.

    >> Is that OK with you guys?
    >> In Peace
    >> Dave

    ——————
    Jacob’s reply:

    John Chingford, whoever he is, is plainly a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan if not an out and out liar.

    > As with many of his sort of cessationist Calvinists, he is a mere ignoramus and a thug.

    > Neither I or Moriel have had any association with Lausanne in over 15 years in part due to the ecumenical issue.
    > Earlier this year I signed a statement opposing its ecumenical direction. Chingford is a sower of discord who characteristically does not know what he is even talking about . Please ask Chris to tell him I said so.

    > Yes, I have been associated with brothers such as Chuck Smith although I have at times publicly disagreed with them, but I would never associate with an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.

    > Do not hesitate to forward him my comments or post them on his blog ( without my e mail address).

    > Jacob Prasch

    —————-

    Regarding Rodger Oakland; with Jacob’s last visit here in SA he informed me that Rodger Oakland had gone wrong – this you are obviously free to believe or not to believe.

    It is a pity that things have developed in this manner and I pray that the Lord will pardon this unnecessary dispute amongst us.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Chris

    I suppose that’s the kind of insults I’ll get from Jacob after you see my article.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Louise

    >> Hi Debra…..I myself have studied the fallen Angels having relations with woman and must admit I have no other answer to that position on why the flood took place. Do you have a topic noted down where I may read up on your take in this matter.

    This is the truth :)
    The Truth about the Sons of God, the Daughters of Men and the Nephilim

  • Myfanwy Brown

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Personally, I am disgusted that Jacob Prasch calls John all those foul names!! I am sickened and angry!!

    Why does JP get people to post on his behalf at DTW?? Why does he not man up and come and face John and Debs here on Deb’s blog?! How can a man like that rant and rave, a so called Christian leader!! He reminds me of some others that I know, if they can’t win the discussion they resort to insults and/or threats.

    The true ‘ignoramus’ here is Jacob, since John C is NOT a Calvinist!! And John is nothing but a gentleman and he is certainly no liar.. methinks Jacob needs to take a long hard look in the mirror!!

  • Redeemed

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    It seems that two of the biggest obstacles to Biblical truth involve the tendency in human nature to make idols out of other humans and also to fear them more than God.

    If we see error we have the responsibility to address it no matter whose toes it steps on. It takes courage and resolve to do that. It must be done out of a love for God’s truth and with no selfish motive. I can say with certainty that any comments I made regarding Mr. Prasch were not personal attacks but out of a heart of concern both for him and for those who trust him to deliver truth. I believe the same for others who have commented here as well as the author of this blog. I hold no animosity toward Mr. Prasch or Moriel, and have respected many of his teachings. Obviously he is extremely intelligent and gifted. Why would such a learned man need to resort to such vitrioilic rhetoric?

    I read with a grieving heart the response given by Mr. Prasch to John Chingford’s comments. Mr. Chingford indicated he has tried numerous times to address the concerns he saw directly to Moriel and received no response. If one desires to be a good Berean, how can one turn a blind eye to the errors that were cited? Only the Lausanne comment was addressed. It takes a humble heart to be powerful in ministry because God hates pride.
    If legitimate concerns are ignored or intercepted by hirelings, what does that say?

    I was shocked to see the insults hurled at Mr. Chingford – such a response was not directed by the Holy Spirit, but rather of flesh offended. Such a response was not necessary or deserved to a brother in Christ. The name calling is absolutely appalling. Mr. Chingford lacks the resources and notoriaty of Moriel. If one peruses his blog it should be obvious that John is a student of the Word and a defender of the truth with no other agenda. He has no materials to sell, he gets no salary. He has no lofty credentials, but he trusts the Holy Spirit to reveal truth of the Word. God loves to use simple things and humble people. By the way, John staunchly opposes Calvinist/Reformed teaching.
    He would be the first to say he is not above criticism and correction.

    As for Chris, he declared that he would no longer participate in the discussion, then goes and tattles like a school boy.

  • John Chingford

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Chris,

    Where does Jacob and David get the idea that I am a Calvinist? Have you/they not read my blog. I make it perfectly clear that I am opposed to calvinist doctrine because of its preconceived Augustinian interpretation of the bible.

    My blog (until recently) was very supportive of Jacob and his ministry believing it to be a valuable ministry for waking up the church. I chose to give him the benefit of the doubt despite his overly heavy handed method of exposing false teachers. It is only recently that I have said anything in opposition to him because I am very cautious to criticise someone of possibly being ecumenical until I have sufficient evidence. In fact, I still (as far as I can remember) have not written anything against him on my blog and chose not to until I received replies to my emails to him.

    I wrote to Jacob and his other team members asking why Moriel were so supportive of Chuck Missler and KH. It was of serious concern of mine (in light of the clear worrying evidence that William Saunders has provided us about Chuck Missler) that Jacob associated with such a man. I wanted to know what his reasons were because I still wanted to give Jacob the benefit of the doubt.

    Why is it that NONE of my emails were replied to? If Jacob says he doesn’t know who I am, then maybe it is because he somehow never saw any of my many emails or deleted them without reading (I give him the benefit that maybe he has too many emails to respond to them all). However, I did address the email as a real concern issue.

    Please ask him if for his reasons why he never replied to any of my emails when I asked him about his association with Chuck Missler.

    For all those who read this, let me remind you how we should respond as Christians to each other:

    Colossians 4:5:
    “Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.”

    Eph 4:31-32:
    “Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you”

  • Colin Ford

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    It is very, very sad that any Christian would use such rhetoric and name calling let alone a man of Jacob’s biblical knowledge.
    Having said that, I am not surprised, I have read/heard other such similar outbursts from him before. People generally stoop to such methods when their position is indefensible.
    I can’t understand why he would do it, we will all be accountable to God for every idle/careless word we speak Matthew 12.36.
    He would certainly appear to be lacking in grace…

  • John Chingford

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    from Louise:

    ….. and must admit I have no other answer to that position on why the flood took place.

    Hi Louise

    There is a simple answer to why the flood took place. It is as follows:

    “God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart”
    Genesis 6:5-6

  • Chris

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Please permit me for a final response.

    Many who know Jacob would know that he would respond in this manner. I do not necessarily agree with the way in which he responds, but I can also understand his frustration in this regard as he gets a continuos stream of e-mails both positive and negative from all over the world. He does not have the time to permanently answer all of these e-mails due to his travels globally. I trust we can understand this.

    He was accused of being part of endorsing Lausanne etcetera and not responding to John’s correspondence, hence my e-mails to Moriel to hear directly from them.

    Accusations regarding his ties with Rodger Oakland, Lausanne etcetera were addressed, yet nobody seems to have acknowledged the fact that he has admitted to the fact that he disagrees with Lausanne and that he openly refutes errors by e.g. Chuck Smith and Rodger Oakland etcetera but the focus now has moved not to the content of his reply but rather the way in which he replied.

    John, concerning Chuck Missler I am quite sure that that Jacob would do the same if he comes to hear of anything doctrinally or morally wrong. Maybe he has already done this and did not mention it in his reply as is the case with Chuck Smith and Rodger Oakland and so many others.

    John if you have any further dispute regarding certain issues please go to Moriel’s website and e-mail Dave Royle I am sure he would take it up with you.

    I have come to realise that in the world when someone as a third party gets involved in disputes between two persons it is the third party that gets nailed in the end by both opposing parties where the dispute originated. Admittedly I find exactly that this is also going that way fortunately from only one side at this stage.

    Now again I am not putting Jacob on a pedestal and idolising him as it would seem the accusations are coming my way.

    When I read: “As for Chris, he declared that he would no longer participate in the discussion, then goes and tattles like a school boy.”

    I have to smile at this because this response is rather insulting and opposes the views regarding the way in which Jacob relied. You are doing the same.
    As you seem to agree with John, to which I agree also, I need to quote John ” For all those who read this, let me remind you how we should respond as Christians to each other:

    Colossians 4:5:
    “Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.”

    Eph 4:31-32:
    “Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you”

    This seems not to be the case with many responding on this blog especially Redeemed as is the example shows.

    In a recent telephone conversation I had with someone who also places comments on this blog we discussed the development of things here and I decided not to carry on with these discussions because others see this as we not even agreeing with one another, yet we bunch together when we refute others, and it should not be so.

    Now if you would see this as running away – so be it.

    Again I say: It is a pity that things have developed in this manner and I pray that the Lord will pardon this unnecessary dispute amongst us.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> Maybe he has already done this and did not mention it in his reply as is the case with Chuck Smith

    Jacob Prasch said in his comment…

    >> “Yes, I have been associated with brothers such as Chuck Smith although I have at times publicly disagreed with them, but I would never associate with an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    Jacob is not saying that he is not longer associated with Chuck Smith. And in Shadows of the Beast he lists Chuck Smith as his bestest friend in the whole wide world. You can’t just sometimes disagree with Chuck Smith, because everything about Chuck Smith is WRONG.

    Chris, instead of being spoonfed your information by Jacob Prasch who will tell you want he wants you to hear, do your own RESEARCH – please I beg of you to be a BEREAN!

  • Joe

    It seems to me that neither John nor Jacob has ANYTHING GOOD to say about one another. Ad Hominen arguments will bring you nowhere. Please keep to the facts.

    Christian-like it is definitely not!

  • Andy

    It’s interesting that Jacob Prasch speaks against the pre-trib rapture, and yet supports everyone that believes it. I believe pre-trib because the antichrist is not revealed in Revelation 6 until the church is in heaven in Revelation 5.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andy

    >> I believe pre-trib because the antichrist is not revealed in Revelation 6 until the church is in heaven in Revelation 5.

    That is the other thing I wanted to mention in the article and then completely forgot! Thanks for mentioning that! VERY IMPORTANT!!!

  • Back when I was a researcher for Roger Oakland, Martin Hardy & myself personally confronted Jacob Prasch out in Phoenix, AZ at a conference Calvary Chapel Tri-Cities pastor John Higgins was holding in January 2011.

    Since then we have noticed the “choice of words” Jacob uses when speaking about others. I noticed Jacob uses the word “delusional” a lot when speaking about others. He loves that word. One can do a cursory scan and see for yourself. Just Google – “prasch”+”delusional” and see for yourself.

    Someone should start a Jacob Prasch Word Bank so we can see all the terms he uses when describing the Lord’s most precious creation.

    In my opinion, Jacob Prasch’s choice of words when describing others reveals a level of arrogance like I have never seen in any other person who calls himself a Christian.

    We all have pride in abundance and I will be the first to admit that in myself. I ask the Lord everyday to bring me to a place of humility as I see my own pride (after I asked the Lord to reveal my own pride, He was faithful to do so).

    Pride is the only sin one can be in when describing it in others, so I say this in all humility.

    I say with all seriousness that the words Jacob Prasch uses to describe others are indicative of something else.

    Where does Jacob get the Biblical authority to say about anybody -

    “a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan”

    “an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    I personally have no idea who John Chingford is and Jacob doesn’t either because Jacob stated “John Chingford, whoever he is…”

    Since Jacob DOESN’T KNOW who John is, where does Jacob Prasch get any authority from The Word Of God to say those words to John Chingford?

    And even if Jacob Prasch did know who John was, still where does Jacob get that authority?

    Chris (whoever that person is) must seem it’s OK for Jacob to talk that way because Chris tries to “smooth over” what Jacob says by stating -

    “Many who know Jacob would know that he would respond in this manner. I do not necessarily agree with the way in which he responds, but I can also understand his frustration in this regard as he gets a continuos stream of e-mails both positive and negative from all over the world. He does not have the time to permanently answer all of these e-mails due to his travels globally. I trust we can understand this.”

    >”Many who know Jacob would know that he would respond in this manner…”

    So the “MANY WHO KNOW” are OK with this? So Jacob’s words are his example to his followers?

    >”…I can also understand his frustration…”

    Frustration? Name calling is not frustration. Jacob is no better than anyone else and neither are we.

    >”…I trust we can understand this.”

    Understand what? Name calling?

    Let’s imagine Jacob Prasch standing before a Holy God and the Lord rolls out what Jacob said about the Lord’s creation, John Chingford -

    “a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan”

    “an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    What is Jacob planning on saying to the Lord at that moment?

    Romans 1:5 – “By whom WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for His name”

    We have received grace for obedience, not grace to say to people -

    “a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan”

    “an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    What is Jacob Prasch thinking, and even worse what are his followers thinking by giving blatant sin a pass by “being understanding”?

    Lord have mercy on us all.

    Grace comes through humility -

    James 4:6 – “But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

    That grace is given for obedience -

    Romans 1:5 – “By whom WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for His name”

    That obedience is to ONLY love Jesus -

    John 14:15 – “If ye love Me, keep My commandments.”

    Humility, grace, love of Jesus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Awesome comment William, thank you!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    NEWS FLASH! Someone ain’t telling us the WHOLE TRUTH! [Edited: This has been resolved! Please read comments, Thank you!]

    This is strange, Jacob Prasch says,

    “Neither I or Moriel have had any association with Lausanne in over 15 years in part due to the ecumenical issue.
    > Earlier this year I signed a statement opposing its ecumenical direction.”

    If you go onto Moriels website you have the following:

    Moriel endorses Church’s Ministry Among the Jews, Jews For Jesus, the Messianic Testimony, Chosen People Ministries, Ariel, the Lausanne Consultation On Jewish Evangelism, the Danish and Norwegian Missions To Israel, and Christian Witness To Israel, but warn against such deceptions as Bridges For Peace, Wings Of Eagles, the Ebenezer Fund, Christian Action For Israel, and above all the International Christian Embassy.” —http://www.moriel.org/pfp/sermons/seduction_of_the_hebrew_root_movement.htm

    Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism is a Special Interest Committee of the Lausanne Movement.” — http://www.lcje.net and this site links DIRECTLY with a big LAUSANNE MOVEMENT LOGO to: http://www.lausanne.org/en/

    Jacob Prasch says he signed a petition, asking the Ecumenical movement he endorses ON THE SIDE to not be ecumenical? How funny is that. (Petition:

    What a waste of time, wasn’t it.

    See snapshots here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/images/wpi/JacobPrasch-LausanneConsultationOnJewishEvangelism.pdf

  • Michael

    Well…some good came out of this discussion…the true colours certainly were exposed…whatever credibility JP had left has now been flushed down the drain.

    I could not believe that one who claims to be a true christian believer can behave like this…JP needs to repent for this and ask for forgiveness from John. The thing is, will he?

  • Redeemed

    Thank you William for your comments.
    Intelligence is a wonderful gift, but it can so easily turn to pride and arrogance. The Bible is quite clear how God feels about pride.

    If one has a short fuse it is a sign of lack of self-control. Self-control is a quality of good leaders and a sign they are walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

    Chris by his own admission says that he was expected Mr. Prasch would respond in the ungodly way he did. Does that not make him a party to Mr. Prasch’s sin of condemning a brother in Christ?

    It is beyond me how someone can respect a leader who conducts himself in such a way and apparently not express any concern about it.

    It has happened over and over. Christian teachers build for themselves huge world-wide ministries and don’t have to be held accountable to the Body of Christ. They insulate themselves and surround themselves with people who will not challenge them, but will in fact deflect even legitimate constructive criticism.

    Yes, the nutcases have to be screened, but when honest questions are asked they deserve honest answers.

    This is not how the Body of Christ is supposed to operate. But this has become the norm with megachurches and megaministries and thereby leaven and error have been allowed to multiply.

    Often good works serve as window dressing that covers the errors.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Debs

    Great research!!!

    By the way, here is a better link showing Jacob’s signature and comments. This is what I meant when I said it was a weak gesture and said nothing. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/lcje/signatures

  • Redeemed

    Joe, facts – isn’t that exactly what John Chingford did? There is no comparison with the comments made by Mr. Chingford and those made by Mr. Prasch. Mr. Chingford did not insult Mr. Prasch and hurl insults at him.

    I don’t follow your reasoning at all. Please explain.

  • Redeemed

    On the Lausanne issue, I knew little to nothing about it before the posts here. It is well and good to sign a petition, but don’t actions speak louder than words? What was the outcome of the petition? Did it accomplish anything? If it did, well and good. If it did not, actions must follow words and one must come out and be separate and make a statement about it, otherwise it means nothing.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Joe

    John supplied FACTS, John did not insult Jacob Prasch.

    It has been proved that John’s suspicions were SPOT on, and that Jacob is covering up.

    I don’t know how you can say that John is at fault.

  • John Chingford

    Thanks Guys for all your words and responding. Especially thanks for all the kind, sympathetic things you said. IT IS appreciated.

    Actually, I found the words of Jacob so ludicrous that it made me laugh rather than cry. I had read those sort of words from Jacob before and now find him addressing them to me. It just had me in stitches. Please pray for him. He needs the conviction from the Holy Spirit to break his pride and bring him to humility. If he is willing to apologise to me personally, it would be a wonderful first step in the path of humility. Of course I will accept his apology, but it would still be nice to hear it.

    I actually have and still care about the man. It is of extreme sadness to see him fall away in the way he has. As an example of my compassion for him please see these two articles on my blog 2 years ago in November 2010:

    [removed]

    [removed]

    Also see this:
    [removed] in Oct 2010

  • Micheline

    Oh my, how terrible is this, no wonder Jesus said to keep our eyes on Him and not on any man.

  • David Melchiz

    Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, having quickly skimmed through the many comments here I recognise many factual errors and accusations of the kind you are attributing to Jacob Prasch – a man who is much more gracious, even to heretics such as the sadly deluded Billy Graham (and family), than the picture being painted here.

    He has, for example, spoken approvingly of Smith Wigglesworth (hardly the most orthodox orator or writer) and even gave credit to the often heretical, divisive and plain nasty, Jerome (‘who translated the Bible into Latin to give people the Vulgate … took the Old Testament from the Hebrew instead of from the Septuagint … pointed out from Romans that the Old Testament canon was given to the Jews. This was much to his credit’ – ref. The Dilemma of Laodicea, p86-87).

    If he can give credit to Jerome, Augustine etc. who are revered by the ignorant as ‘Church Fathers’ while pointing out some of their more obvious errors, then we can expect that he might do the same with contemporary leaders who may exhibit many good, orthodox points in their ministries that far outstrip their errors (e.g David Wilkerson). This does not ever mean that he, and we, should not still warn of the errors in a ministry when they may adversely affect believers.

    By his own admission he should be a better Christian than he is and has at times allowed a sense of humour that is out of place in Christian meetings to come to the fore. I have personally heard his teaching on many occasions and over many years, listened to his tapes/CDs, and read many of his articles and books (e.g Grain for the Famine; More Grain for the Famine; The Final Words of Jesus and Satan’s Lies Today; The Dilemma of Laodicea; Shadows of the Beast).

    I have also asked him questions on various subjects and never found him to be disingenuous. He has always answered honestly and openly and stated on many occasions that ‘he does not know everything’ and fully recommends and supports the Scriptural admonition to check everything (the Word and the Spirit) out carefully, i.e. be a Berean (Acts 17v11) and ‘prove all things’ (1 Thessalonians 5v19-22). When I read accusations, such as – ‘John Wesley (like Jacob Prasch) believed in a works salvation. This means that they had to use “methods” to obtain God’s favour’ – I would ask the writer to prove this extensively (try and find it in the Prasch books I have quoted here, for example – saved by ‘grace alone’ is emphatically taught by him).

    Note: I understand that Moriel have employed visually impaired staff for many years and, for whatever reason, errors occur occasionally in his books because of obvious misunderstandings by those entrusted with transcription (a better proof-reading system would also help). When there are so many lost people trapped in false religions and blatant cults it is surprising and disappointing to find so much time wasted on making unfounded allegations against one of the most orthodox contemporary teachers – especially over difficult and relatively unessential doctrines. Please carefully check his teaching on utterly essential doctrines, e.g. salvation, before going too far in your estimations and conclusions.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear David

    >> having quickly skimmed through the many comments

    That was your first mistake, you should have READ them.

    Did you read the article?

    >> I recognise many factual errors

    There are no factual errors. Only facts. If they are errors he must come back and tell us why they are errors regarding the Lausanne Consultation On Jewish Evangelism

    >> He has, for example, spoken approvingly of Smith Wigglesworth (hardly the most orthodox orator or writer) and even gave credit to the often heretical, divisive and plain nasty, Jerome (‘who translated the Bible into Latin to give people the Vulgate … took the Old Testament from the Hebrew instead of from the Septuagint … pointed out from Romans that the Old Testament canon was given to the Jews. This was much to his credit’ – ref. The Dilemma of Laodicea, p86-87).

    So what?

    >> If he can give credit to Jerome, Augustine etc. who are revered by the ignorant as ‘Church Fathers’ while pointing out some of their more obvious errors, then we can expect that he might do the same with contemporary leaders who may exhibit many good, orthodox points in their ministries that far outstrip their errors (e.g David Wilkerson). This does not ever mean that he, and we, should not still warn of the errors in a ministry when they may adversely affect believers.

    I don’t see Paul in the bible or anyone for that matter giving any false teacher any CREDIT of any sort. They said, MARK them and STAY away from them. Don’t confuse the flock by one minute mentioning they preach certain things falsely and then another minute say they are great preachers.

    >> I have also asked him questions on various subjects and never found him to be disingenuous.

    Really, so why then was I told if I was to question him on a certain matter that he would reply in a not so nice way? And why then did he insult John the way he did, when he did not have to AT ALL. What is so special about you?

    >> He has always answered honestly and openly and stated on many occasions that ‘he does not know everything’ and fully recommends and supports the Scriptural admonition to check everything (the Word and the Spirit) out carefully, i.e. be a Berean (Acts 17v11) and ‘prove all things’ (1 Thessalonians 5v19-22).

    First) Ya, ya, and the Midrash. You forget you need to check the Midrash too. Secondly) why are you asking Jacob Prasch, why are you not going to the bible and searching the scriptures yourself with the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

    >> I understand that Moriel have employed visually impaired staff for many years and, for whatever reason, errors occur occasionally in his books because of obvious misunderstandings by those entrusted with transcription

    I would think that would be more on the lines on spelling errors surely? Not full blown twisting of scripture. Blame the visually impaired now? That is… hmmm…. I don’t have words for that.

    >> When there are so many lost people trapped in false religions and blatant cults it is surprising and disappointing to find so much time wasted on making unfounded allegations against one of the most orthodox contemporary teachers

    Ah but on the contrary dear David, it would appear that your Jacob is not teaching the whole truth and nothing but the truth and uses extra biblical sources to gain so called biblical knowledge. He has painted himself a picture to the public to be this highly intelligent man that is so knowledgeable on everything, and he sneaks in UNBIBLICAL messages like the (Nephilim into his 95% of his videos, which he gets from extra biblical writings – why does he keep repeating this??) He even mentions the Nephillim is the ‘Shadows of the Beast’ He says, “Hence when Jesus was transfigured (on the same mount where the demonic Nephilim came down in the days of Jarrod according to Jewish history) [Emphasis added] [pg. 15] and saying that Slain in the Spirit does happen today, and then getting Christians involved in the Midrash, which has been proven to an introduction to Kabbalah.)

    On the outskirts Jacob Prasch dazzles with this high IQ, and yes he preaches a lot of truth, but of late I have been watching his ministry do an about turn for the worse, and things are but a changin’ and new doctrines are being preached to his now ‘many many many followers’ like for instance that Pre-trib is erroneous, which it is not. Jacob has to twist scripture to come to his conclusions. It would seem the trick of Satan is to start a minister off with the truth, and once he has built up a large ministry, then start doing an about turn on certain important things… and this is what is happening with Moriel.

    >> it is surprising and disappointing to find so much time wasted on making unfounded allegations against one of the most orthodox contemporary teachers – especially over difficult and relatively unessential doctrines……Please carefully check his teaching on utterly essential doctrines

    But you don’t find it surprising that Prasch could waste an entire chapter debunking Pre-trib and calling us false teachers and unbelievers attacking the Elect. It’s not an unessential doctrine to JP – why don’t you go and ask ask him why he wrote a whole chapter on such an unessential thing and insult most of the body of Christ!

    Follow Jesus Christ David, not Jacop Prasch.

  • John Chingford

    Hi David Melchiz

    You asked me a specific question. Therefore I will reply.

    Jacob and John Wesley BOTH follow Arminian theology. Arminianism is a work based theology because it states that you can lose your salvation.

    I will explain why it is work based. They preach that AFTER being born again into God’s family you can STILL fall away. Therefore, it has to be work based because IF YOU DO NOT CONTINUE (I.e in your OWN strength and works) you can LOSE your salvation. This is heresy! Paul had some very strong words to say about such doctrine of works to maintain salvation:

    “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:6-9

    and in Galatians 3:2-3 “Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

    Hi Debs, Again an excellent reply by you and SPOT ON!

  • Holly

    You know Prasch likes to brag that he is “brash” as he calls others idiots, liars, uneducated (if they don’t agree with his take on Midrash. As others pointed out, his very unsound speech towards John. It is always excused and explained away as his frustration, over these things, he need only do his best to have sound speech that cannot be condemned, or simply reply as he can, or since this is not the only place where his teaching on Midrash has been questioned, maybe a public response on his site?

    But his own articles on midrash give him away. And after a similar conversation on a Facebook group a “friend” and also someone who claimed to work for Prasch, said they would be reaching him for comment. Instead, the entire site went down the very next day and stayed down for some sort of “move”. Possibly a strange coincidence.

    In all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility,sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you. Tit 2:7-8

  • Chris

    Deborah.

    I have tried to phone you to have a civilised discussion regarding Moriel and Jacob Prasch to explain my situation to you ,as I do not see the point to continue the conflict in the open like this, but you did not answer.

    With this I want to make something very clear:

    There are presumptions that I agree in how Jacob and support Jacob’s way of communication which is not true. If I agreed I would have followed his example here as I am sure you would notice I have not.

    I have looked into certain issues that were raised on this blog and need to respond appropriately.

    Herewith I want to make it absolutely clear that if Jacob is guilty as charged and/or comes up with heresy that I will obviously distance myself from him – this is under investigation. And this is what I wanted to tell you over the phone.

    What I did find that is mentioned on this blog regarding Jacob’s endorsement of The Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelicalism is that it does feature on the Moriel site.

    What I found strange and questioned is that he signed a petition with us against this practice which seems to contradict what is on the Moriel website. The petition was signed in February 2012 and may be viewed here: http://lausannecje.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/where-is-the-lausanne-consultation-for-jewish-evangelism-heading/

    This seemed to me to be contradictory but after consulting with Moriel found that in the past Jacob had certain ties with them, hence his endorsement at the time. These are old documents are not applicable today and there is supposed to be updated.

    Jacob had already withdrawn from this movement some years ago.

    I am sure that we may find old topics on the internet to really nail each other with, but are they still applicable?

    I find it concerning that one site is quoted to show Jacob’s involvement with Lausanne, yet the other sites are not mentioned. I trust that this will be investigated as well.

    There is also mention made that the word Midrash does not appear in the Bible yet I recall one of Jacobs’ teachings where he mentions the following Scriptures:

    2Chronicles 13:22 And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, are written in the story of the prophet Iddo.

    If we look at the Hebrew wording we will find the following Hebrew word for “Story” that is “Midrash”

    This we also find in: 2 Chronicles 24:27 2Ch 24:27 Now concerning his sons, and the greatness of the burdens laid upon him, and the repairing of the house of God, behold, they are written in the story of the book of the kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.

    The word story here also is called “Midrash”

    I will however look into the other issues regarding Jacob and will continue doing so as we are to be Bereans.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    Sorry, my husband has my phone and he is away for a whole week working and only be back on Sunday. I didn’t ignore your call :)

    >> here is also mention made that the word Midrash does not appear in the Bible yet I recall one of Jacobs’ teachings where he mentions the following Scriptures:
    >> 2Chronicles 13:22 And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, are written in the story of the prophet Iddo.
    >> If we look at the Hebrew wording we will find the following Hebrew word for “Story” that is “Midrash”
    >> This we also find in: 2 Chronicles 24:27 2Ch 24:27 Now concerning his sons, and the greatness of the burdens laid upon him, and the repairing of the house of God, behold, they are written in the story of the book of the kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.
    >>The word story here also is called “Midrash”

    Funny you should mention this, I realised this this morning and went to check for the Hebrew word Midrash and found the word ‘story’ I have updated the article. I apologize for my error and I have rectified my mistake.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    What I did find that is mentioned on this blog regarding Jacob’s endorsement of The Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelicalism is that it does feature on the Moriel site.

    What I found strange and questioned is that he signed a petition with us against this practice which seems to contradict what is on the Moriel website. The petition was signed in February 2012 and may be viewed here: http://lausannecje.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/where-is-the-lausanne-consultation-for-jewish-evangelism-heading/

    This seemed to me to be contradictory but after consulting with Moriel found that in the past Jacob had certain ties with them, hence his endorsement at the time. These are old documents are not applicable today and there is supposed to be updated.

    Jacob had already withdrawn from this movement some years ago.

    Ok, we will see this as Jacob Prasch being vindicated regarding Laussane, he knows what organisations he belongs too and does not belong too – Jesus after all does see everything.

  • Dion

    “Now I beseech you, BRETHREN, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my BRETHREN, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” 1 Cor 1:10 to 12.

    Over the past while I’ve been following the many blogs on Jacob Prasch and I noticed an apparently increasing number of individuals joining in with what I could, if I were emotionally charged only, describe as “the hunting down and shredding to pieces” of our BROTHER Jacob Prasch. Take note, I call him OUR brother, for Jacob is someone who just like each of us, has openly admitted that he too, is but a scholar.., a student of Christ; someone who does not know it all; someone who also, just like each of us, makes mistakes and when this becomes known to him, corrects the said mistakes and humbly and obediently repents thereof, humbly apologizes and then carries on with the task of discipleship for which he was called – this is what each TRUE Christian has also been called for. Each of you who have blogged has also had to repent on various things and has had to apologize. In his moving on with his task, Jacob has put his past mistakes behind him and thinks of it no more.
    My view on the blogs read is that some of Jacob’s past mistakes for which he has publicly apologized, is partially what is now still held against him. Is this right? Certainly not!

    We all have something to say about the serious issues of false prophets and false teachers and false “Christians” and the false teachings all agents of Satan present wherever they go, and it is our God-ordained duty to speak out against these and any false issues of filth that has historically infiltrated and still is infiltrating the True Church. I do so at just about every opportunity I get to warn the audience against anything contrary to God’s Word and the teachings of Christ. I am certain that each person who comments on what they perceive or understand or believe to be false, does so out of real love for Christ and in defense of the Truth; in defense of the Faith.

    The comments of defense on that which MUST be protected by each and every single True Christian, MUST however, be done in love and not for the sake of one’s own image building as I think perhaps and as apparently is the case with a few blogs posted in respect of Jacob Prasch.

    Every now and then I too have discussions with some of my true BROTHERS or SISTERS on their understanding of Theology or Eschatology or other subjects of faith and it is often necessary to show some of them that from a Biblical perspective, their views are a-skewed and that these require to be corrected and brought in line with the Holy Writ. Often it happens that the discussions become heated due to the resistance-to-change factors always present during such discussions. Often it happens that we part company for a while, each one still occupying his decided position “from which I shall not be moved”.

    And so we all sometimes sin and by for a while refusing to repent; out of arrogance and pride we refuse to repent and make up. We then fail to see how such positions usually make further discussions somewhat difficult and we refuse to consider that these said “positional bargaining” arguments do not contribute one single ounce toward a desired spirit of Biblical reconciliation which MUST be present in each and every TRUE Christian who MUST be motivated by Godly love for one another. If the desired result is not one of Biblical reconciliation on the subjects now differed from, and discussions take place, then only the self is served (sometimes unknowingly)as opposed to primarily giving God the glory and the honour. Such discussions are then guaranteed to eventually turn into one big massive uncalled-for mess that paves the way for Satan to contribute and before long, and eventually everything on the table causes God being mocked by those who usually can’t wait for True Christians to make a mistake so that such True Christians could be attacked for the world to see.

    Thank God however, that it so often happens that someone, some True BROTHER or SISTER makes the obedient first move and makes contact with with the other party with the view of Biblical reconciliation so as not to do God’s Word or His work any more damage than that which has already been done amongst BROTHERS and SISTERS!

    In the latest and current war-amongst-real-BROTHERS-and-SISTERS the damage caused has been great; in such a short time the damage has been greater than perhaps any of us may wish to acknowledge or admit! The question must today be asked of each one who contributed to the current ocean of Jacob Prasch blogs; Has everything you’ve blogged been Christ-centred, Holy Spirit driven, aimed at correcting in line with Scriptures, done in true love for one another? Are you sure?

    We speak of how the land of Israel is currently under attack by Hamas and certain countries which oppose EVERYTHING that stands for God and His work, yet, we make time to publicly attack one another as opposed to HUMBLY, in line with the Holy Writ, correct and admonish one another… What truly motivates us as real Christian BROTHERS and SISTERS to attack as we do here and now, on this public platform, as opposed to dealing with it in what God’s Word says about how we should be dealing with issues of difference without doing His work damage?

    Do we declare war and then attack before we follow God’s guidelines on issues of difference simply because we got no response from so-and-so on this-or-that-issue? Do we then (again, perhaps unknowingly, driven by pride and arrogance round up as many supporters for the cause of “self” and then fire the missiles so as to “teach so-and-so a lesson or two”?

    I know that there comes a time when from a public platform each and every True Christian MUST warn the world including those who are from the True Church of the wrong and the false that takes place from within the Church. I support such public platform activities as much as I can (I even initiate such activities), but I do so ONLY once the other party refuses to stop spreading a false gospel or false issues of core Biblical subjects which could lead others astray.

    I know in my heart that I can only speak from a public platform if the other party does not repent and by his own choice continues with spreading a false gospel. Yes, if this happens, then I stand very strongly on the public platform and I shout it out to the world and all and sundry so as to warn every one!

    But when the other party repents and apologizes and shows this in his life, I do not when it seems “right” to me, recall his past mistakes so as to make my cause look better, and in this doing, I damage the work for which both the other party and I have been called and sent.

    I would like the mess among BROTHERS and SISTERS to come to an end as soon as possible; right now if possible.

    So, for this reason I wish to extent this invitation to each one who has contributed towards the mess upon which the world now looks, to stop any additional blogs on the issue currently under “judgment” and to go on to your knees as the next move and pray about that which you should blog next.

    Let the Spirit of God lead you in that which you contribute next. If you should make contact with one another privately, then do so. Do so because it is your duty as a True Christian to first give the other party a chance to repent and then live the repentance seeked as and when and where such is called for. We must all be aware of the fact that not everyone who participates in these public platform blogs do so as a full-time occupation. Some of us have ordinary lives we live and work while others travel the world as they teach God’s Word on a full-time basis and as a result of travel schedules they cannot respond to each and every e-mail or blog received. Do not hold this against them…

    My BROTHERS and my SISTERS, before you burst into print, first pray and ask God to lead you in what you may wish to say. Be reminded that you will one day be held accountable for what you speak and how you speak it.

    And, finally, let the one who is truly Spirit driven and serious about defending the Faith in line with the Holy Writ, go ahead and state God’s case for all to see and discuss in the spirit of Biblical reconciliation, so that those who do not follow Christ can see the developments of this matter as an example of True Christianity and therefore want to serve Christ also!

    Be blessed if you truly follow Christ. Being aware of issues of a false gospel does not mean we should shoot from the hip and only afterwards shout “..who goes there…?”

    I hope and pray you receive this blog in the spirit in which I send it. Love in Christ, Dion

  • Redeemed

    Chris, it was heartening to see your communication. And as you can see, Deborah has shown humility and the willingness to accept correction. All any of us want is the truth, and nothing but. The Lord expects nothing less.

    In our time we have seen Bible teachers fall like dominoes choosing cronyism over truth, associations over sound doctrine, popularity over counting the cost. In exposing error in these last days the Lord is using the nondescript with no other agenda than being a faithful Berean.

    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1 Cor. 1:27

    May the Lord grant you wisdom and discernment.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dion

    The Lausanne issue has been resolved, all the other issues remain.

    1) Slain in the Spirit teaching – You can find it here as well: on page 6
    2) Nephilim teaching
    3) Midrash which is introduction to Kabbalah – MOST IMPORTANT!
    4) On 2 occasions I have seen Moriel (Jacob Prasch and Dave Royle) mention John Wesley (who believed you can lose your salvation) – this is works based salvation and George Whiefield (who was a Calvinist)

    Here Jacob Prasch says, “While John Wesley opposed the institution of slavery, even an otherwise outstanding figure like George Whitefield, because of the cursed Calvinism to which he foolishly subscribed owned Black slaves resulting in a shameful indictment on the memory of such a great man of God. - [pg. 10/48]

    Again we have Jacob speaking out of two mouths, for and against false doctrines. You can’t be a false teacher, believing in a false gospel AND be a man of God. He speaks against Calvinists but agrees and calls teachers of Calvinism men of God. Just like he says John MacArthur is a great preacher – how is this possible, if John MacArthur preaches a FALSE DOCTRINE leading people to hell! What is so great about that!

    There are plenty places where John Wesley and George Whitefield are mentioned by Moriel, you don’t have to look hard to find them quoted, praised, upheld as great men of God. How is this possible.

    Here on Moriel it says, “Read Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, D.L. Moody, George Whitefield – the people whom God used to bring revival to Britain.”

    From Wikipedia: John Wesley ( /ˈwɛzlɪ/; 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – 2 March 1791) was an Anglican cleric and Christian theologian. Wesley is largely credited, along with his brother Charles Wesley, as founding the Methodist movement which began when he took to open-air preaching in a similar manner to George Whitefield. In contrast to George Whitefield’s Calvinism, Wesley embraced the Arminian doctrines that were dominant in the 18th-century Church of England. Methodism in both forms was a highly successful evangelical movement in the United Kingdom, which encouraged people to experience Jesus Christ personally. Wesley’s teachings, known as Wesleyanism, provided the seeds for the modern Methodist movement, the Holiness movement, Pentecostalism, the Charismatic Movement, and Neo-charismatic churches, which encompass numerous denominations across the world. In addition, he refined Arminianism with a strong evangelical emphasis on the Reformed doctrine of justification by faith. —http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley

    4a) Strange view on salvation:
    From Dilemma of Laodicea [pg. 32]

    Salvation, Saved and Born Again
    - I have been saved
    - I am being saved, and
    - I am going to be saved.
    Similarily,
    - I have been born again,
    - I am being born again, and
    - I am going to be born again.

    You can find it here as well: on page 6 explained in more detail.
    He is speaking about past, present and future, trying to explain: justification, sanctification and redemption. This is not correct! It sounds ok, but when you think about it and look at the verses he has quoted it’s not right at all.

    5) Friendship with Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel – VERY IMPORTANT issue! I do not know how he can be friends with a man like that.
    6) Distorted eschatological view – he anti Pre-Trib and calls those who believe in pre-trib false teachers and unbelievers deceiving the Elect.

    I am sure if I actually read his books I would find so much more to be concerned with but this is more than enough.

    I pray that you find these issues as concerning as I do, I pray that these things do not get swept under the carpet because of ‘unity’. There are thousands of people’s spiritual lives at stake here, not just one man.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    I am struggling with my internet connection, if I disappear it’s because I’ve lost my connection – I will be back.

  • Andy

    Jacob Prasch believes you can lose salvation. That alone makes him wrong. If he can’t even get the Gospel right, then that would be why he is so inconsistent on many other issues.

  • Dion (an obvious Jacob Prasch supporter) came to Jacob’s rescue by citing -

    “…the hunting down and shredding to pieces” of our BROTHER Jacob Prasch…”

    Who is SHREDDING WHOM when Jacob Prasch states about the Lord’s creation? -

    “a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan”

    “an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    We can all get mired in the “gray mud” of theology which is where Satan wants us to battle, where opinions are allowed.

    But let’s look at the basic BLACK & WHITE fruit of Jacob Prasch. Jesus stated when referring to wolves that we would know them by their fruit.

    Matthew 7:15 – “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

    Matthew 7:16 – “Ye shall know them by their fruits…”

    Matthew 7:20 – “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

    Ephesians 5:9 – “For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth”

    Galatians 5:22-23 – “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    23 MEEKNESS, temperance: against such there is no law.”

    MEEKNESS!!!

    Where is the MEEKNESS of Jacob Prasch?

    Here is Jacob Prasch’s OWN WORDS which have been typical of Jacob Prasch as long as I can remember -

    “a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan”

    “an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    Is the above MEEKNESS?

    Let’s forget about all the opinionated theological stuff and focus on the basic fruit of Jacob Prasch which is what Jesus wants us to focus on.

    This has been a lifelong trait with Jacob.

    Wolves will be very educated, very theological, and talk up a great debate.

    We can’t forget “Satan’s ministers of righteousness”.

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 – “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”

    What did Jesus say to us as to how to detect these guys?

    Matthew 7:17-20 – “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

    Jacob Prasch has a bad fruit problem -

    “a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan”

    “an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    It’s BLATANTLY OBVIOUS, stop trying to cover for him and repent yourselves.

    When Jacob Prasch humbles himself and decides to LOVE JESUS by OBEYING The Word Of God, the Lord will give Jacob the grace to obey.

    Until then, avoid Jacob Prasch.

    Romans 16:17 – “Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> The Bible says “one who IS called a brother” vs what you say “who calls himself a brother” There is a huge difference here. Obviously one who is called a brother is a brother.
    The Greek word for “called” is” Onomadzo” and means named, assigned etc. He was named and assigned a brother – he did not give himself the title.

    You say the whole church of Corinth are genuine Christians living in sin. I say they are a mixed bag of genuine Christians and professing Christians.

    that is called” G3687 ὀνομάζω onomazo (on-om-ad’-zo) v.
    1. to name, i.e. assign an appellation
    2. (by extension) to utter, mention, profess

    Root(s): G3686 “call, name” ὄνομα onoma (on’-om-ah) n.
    1. a (authority, character)
    {literally or figuratively}

    “that is called” is uses in this case in a literal sense as “one who is a so-called brother” [lit. “one who bears the name brother]

    The translation “so-called brother” implies that the sinner in question was only a professing Christian. However, there is nothing in the Greek text that justifies the rendering “so-called brother.” The Greek verb “to call” (kaleo) and the masculine pronoun “himself” (autos) are not found in this verse. The key word is onomazomenos a participle whose root is the word “name” (onoma). The Greek phrase tis adelphos onomazomenos literally means, “one who bears the name brother.” The ESV, NRSV, NKJV, and NIDNTT 655 get it right while the KJV is close. Other VSS (e.g., NASB, NIV, and NET) interpret tis adelphos onomazomenos (“one who bears the name brother”) for the reader rather than translate it and let the reader come to his own conclusions. Additionally, the context strongly suggests that the man in question is a genuine believer. In 5:1 this person is contrasted with Gentiles and with those in the world (5:12) and outside the church (5:9, 10, 12-13). Furthermore nowhere else the Greek verb (named or called) carries a sense of doubt (see Mark 3:14; Acts 19:13; Rom 15:20; Eph 3:15; 5:3; 2 Tim 2:19). Hence Paul contrasts the immoral believer with unbelievers. The equation of both is in their behavior not identity. —http://bible.org/seriespage/how-handle-scandal-1-corinthians-51-13#P78_34865

    I went and just had a look at some bible translation (good and bad) to see what they say of the same verse… and it’s very interesting:

    1 Corinthians 5:11 KJV 1611
    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat

    1 Corinthians 5:11 Amplified Bible (AMP)
    11 But now I write to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of [Christian] brother if he is known to be guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater [whose soul is devoted to any object that usurps the place of God], or is a person with a foul tongue [railing, abusing, reviling, slandering], or is a drunkard or a swindler or a robber. [No] you must not so much as eat with such a person.

    1 Corinthians 5:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    11 But [a]actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or (B)an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

    1 Corinthians 5:11 King James Version (KJV)
    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

    1 Corinthians 5:11 New Living Translation (NLT)
    11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people

    1 Corinthians 5:11 English Standard Version (ESV)
    11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one

    1 Corinthians 5:11 Common English Bible (CEB)
    11 But now I’m writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls themselves “brother” or “sister” who is sexually immoral, greedy, someone who worships false gods, an abusive person, a drunk, or a swindler. Don’t even eat with anyone like this.

    1 Corinthians 5:11 Good News Translation (GNT)
    11 What I meant was that you should not associate with a person who calls himself a believer but is immoral or greedy or worships idols or is a slanderer or a drunkard or a thief. Don’t even sit down to eat with such a person.

    “Paul continues his leaven illustration in 5:7-8, with this exhortation: “Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. Clean out the leaven so that you can start over unleavened bread, because that is what you are. In other words, Paul tells them to be who they are, to live like Christians. Who they are is revealed in what they do. What they do comes from who they are. Paul’s point is clear: Sin spreads in the church as leaven does in dough (cf. Gal 5:9; Mark 8:15). Sin always spreads and contaminates if left alone, just as poison, weeds, and cancer do. Eventually the whole moral fabric of the congregation would suffer if the believers did not expunge this sin. Thus, we must purge the church of sin for the church stands or falls together.

    [Paul has warned us to refuse to tolerate rebellion in the church. But how should we live in this world with people who are rebellious and sinful? Should we judge them too? Paul answers these questions in the next five verses.]

    Refuse to stop reaching out to the world (5:9-13). In this section, Paul informs us that church discipline is for believers. In 5:9-11, Paul writes, “I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother [lit. “one who bears the name brother”] if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler– not even to eat with such a one.” It is widely accepted that Paul wrote four different letters to the church at Corinth. However, only 1-2 Corinthians have been included in the Bible. In one of his previous letters, the Corinthians apparently misunderstood Paul. They thought he didn’t want them to have any association with any immoral person. Paul clarifies and explains that this ban only pertained to Christians and so called Christians. When sinners sin, they are merely doing what they are supposed to do. Sin is a part of a sinner’s job description! The difference between a sinner and a saint is that a saint doesn’t have to sin anymore.

    This means that our ministry is not to spend our time judging the world. That’s left to God. It’s none of our business. Too often we preach against the wrong sin. It’s easy to stand in the pulpit and talk about what’s going on in the world. But we are not to judge those. Don’t ever get mad at the world for acting like the world. What else are they going to do? We need to confront the sin that is within the walls of our churches, within the lives of our people. That is our ministry.”

    So when Paul tells the Corinthians to kick these evil doers out of the church, some will repent and come back (because they were genuine brothers to begin with) and others won ever come back because they were the professing Christian. When Paul addresses his letters he addressed it to the ‘church’ as a whole, he didnt say, “Dear Corinthian Christians and those professing to be Christians” No, Paul did not know who is really saved and who is not. Just like today, in each church, you do not know who is saved and who isn’t. But based on their lifestyle and how they live it can become apparent very quickly as if something is wrong. So Paul said, excommunicate these sinners, don’t even eat with them, shame them. Those who are genuinely saved will repent and come back… and the ones who don’t come back well… you just gotta ask serious questions as to if they were ever saved in the first place. —http://bible.org/seriespage/how-handle-scandal-1-corinthians-51-13

    You said it yourself in an earlier comment…

    “Nobody can add themselves to the Church only God may – that is the divine purpose of the Lord – so the church by Biblical definition cannot have unsaved people only backsliders and unrepentant backsliders. It is these unrepentant backsliders that are instructed to leave the congregation in the hope that they repent and return.”

    The problem with this comment is this, you said, “in the hope that the repent and return”…what happens if they don’t return ever? Hope that they return means that their is another option; that they don’t return – because they were not Christians.

    This is how it works:
    The Corinthian Church is made up of the body of Christ (believers only)
    — Believers who had sin (and need to go away from the church and repent and come back)
    — So called Believers who had sinned (and need to go away from the church to repent, wont repent, and wont come back to the church)
    there is another option,
    —-So called Believers who had sinned (and went away from the church, and repented, changed their ways, and came back to the church as believers)

  • Elisheva QUICK

    I have known Jacov PRASCH PERSONALLY for YEARS now, and have double checked ALL of his teachings that’s available. Jacov is one of the MOST “Kosher Teachers” there is. My question is: Do YOU have a PERSONAL VENDETTA against Jacov PRASCH, because it seems to like it.
    NOBODY needs to DEFEND Jacov PRASCH, just have a Berean Heart to SEE that you CANNOT fault Jacov in MOST his teachings.
    We will ALL be standing before the LORD Himself to be judged to see IF we kept to His DOCTRINE.
    Shalom

  • Marion

    “Wolves in sheep’s clothing” are not sheep. They do not know and live by the Word of God or are led by the Spirit of God, for these are gifts for those who belong to the Lord, alone. When wolves are threatened (exposed) their “fangs” come out, they “growl” and they “attack”> This is what we have here. This is not a Christian having a bad day. This is JP’s LIFESTYLE! And as a “teacher” he ought to know better.

    “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;”(Eph.4:29-5:1)

    Has Jacob EVER read and applied this Word to his life?

    Therefore…in agreement with William;

    Jesus taught: “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things\: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matt. 33-37)

    Think on these things, and then take a good look at Jacob Prasch…he is not who many think he is! Jacob has shown us all unashamedly what is in his heart, and there is no excusing it. God would have his people be wise and discerning. There is no life or light in this man.

  • John Chingford

    Have Moriel actually pulled out of LCJE membership?

    As far as I can tell, all Jacob has done is make a token gesture by entering his name onto a wishy washy petition. That petition is simply a request for LCJE to stop being ecumenical. It doesn’t request that LCJE should pull out from Lausanne membership.

    How can LCJE pull away from Lausanne? It is part and parcel of the Lausanne ecumenical movement giving unstoppable allegiance to the Vatican. They knew exactly what they were signing when they first joined the council. It is like asking the Vatican to stop being Catholic.

    Most of these “so called” messianic Jewish fellowships who have joined to LCJE are STILL in membership. If they are opposed to ecumenism with Rome WHY WHY WHY are they still part of it? As I understand it, Moriel are STILL in membership. If they are opposed, why don’t they raise a much bigger voice and totally separate themselves from it???

    All Jacob has done is make a weak token gesture that he is opposed but (as far as I am informed) has done nothing concrete about it. If anyone DOES HAVE concrete evidence that Moriel have withdrawn conclusively, please let me know. I will then apologise.

    Here was Jacob’s entry on the petition. This is a direct link to his name (first line)

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/lcje/signatures#sub-8

    Notice his comment (or lack of it) compared to many others who (in possible naivety) gave enthusiastic rebuttals against LCJE.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elisheva

    >> I have known Jacov PRASCH PERSONALLY for YEARS now

    That’s what they say about Angus Buchan, they have known his for years and he is such a nice guy… so what?

    >> Do YOU have a PERSONAL VENDETTA against Jacov PRASCH, because it seems to like it.

    No we have no personal vendetta against him.

    >> We will ALL be standing before the LORD Himself to be judged to see IF we kept to His DOCTRINE.

    You almost sound like a Kobus van Rensburg fanatic telling me that we are not to judge the doctrine that people speak? That’s funny, because JP judges the doctrine that others speaks.

    What I find amazing here is that if seems quite ok that JP can do the things he does, associate with the people he does, teach false doctrine, but we are the BAD ONES for pointing it out. LOL

    >> NOBODY needs to DEFEND Jacov PRASCH

    So what are you doing?

    >> Jacov is one of the MOST “Kosher Teachers” there is.

    And you are? And I must believe you why?

    >> and have double checked ALL of his teachings that’s available

    You have double checked all his teachings? LOL, I doubt that there is to much and some of it is changing.

    >> just have a Berean Heart

    We are being bereans, we are TESTING the Spirits and finding huge problems.

    Elisheva, is this your real name? From what I remember is Elizabeth, are you really Jewish, or are you trying to be Jewish?

    Andy said in his comment “…Ephesians says that out of the two (Jew and Gentile), God made one new man. Inevitably I have personally found that “Messainic” ended up going under the law, and that was why they insisted on being on their own. We’re not to be under the law. We’re to be under grace.”

  • Redeemed

    Dion, apparently you missed that John Chingford tried to approach Moriel with his concerns, each time with no response. You also apparently missed Chris’s explanation for this that it is next to impossible for Moriel to answer. Jacob Prasch makes it clear that he does not want his direct e-mail to be published. Others I know, myself included have made attempts to contact various ministries IN A RESPECTFUL way with legitimate concerns to no avail. I recall one time when I heard back from a Bible teacher. who engaged me in dialog.

    In the main, discerners have no recourse but to go to public blogs to alert the Church only to incur the wrath of the source (and their supporters) of the error. Applicable verses have been quoted here that justify the exposing of error. Going to someone in private only applies to the LOCAL church, not a large-scale public ministry. God is displeased when the flock is scattered and confused by false teaching. To be silent about this dishonors God. To expose it in the right way honors God and His truth.

    Sadly, for the most part, big ministries and megachurches could care less about those they call “detractors” and God considers valuable members of the Body of Christ. Such an attitude smacks of pride and self-confidence rather than a humble Spirit.

  • Holly

    When I was first reading Jacob’s explanation of Midrash, I had many, many questions. These things ARE to be handled in public as the error has been made and not been retracted publicly.

    We are saddened at the lack of gentleness to all men, the lack of patience, the lack of meekness in instructing, the outbursts of wrath, the lack of the fruit of the Spirit, the lack of sound speech when Jacob is opposed by any who question His teachings with the Word. Shouldn’t they rather be commended? (Acts 17:11)

    Maybe some could prayerfully consider these questions.

    MY QUESTIONS REGARDING SOME OF JACOB’S STATEMENTS:

    1. Didn’t the Holy Spirit author God’s Word by inspiration or do we see that it was “Midrash hermeneutics used in the writing of the NT”?
    a. “While Moriel agrees with the conservative Evangelical scholars dating back to the Puritans, and the wide body of conservative Evangelical scholarly opinion based on Dead Sea Scrolls research that the New Testament writers used midrashic hermeneutics in the writing of the New Testament…”

    2. Are all these things “scriptural fact” as Jacob says, or subjective opinion?

    3. Where do we see in the scriptures that Midrash is taught as a hermeneutic? (method of interpretation). Chapter and verse?

    4. Where do we see in scripture Midrash is used for prophetic interpretation of history? Can anyone supply a reference? (Yes, I am familiar with Jacob’s 2 references, but this is NOT a teaching of Midrash, but a MENTION)

    5. Where do we see it being “taught” in God’s Word as the usage was just laid out by Jacob?

    6. Am I truly “taking away from God’s Word” if I do not see it the same way Jacob does?
    a. (Jacob said) “Likewise, anyone who suggests that Midrash is not found in God’s Words is also a liar or uneducated. God’s Word is true and if it says “Midrash” I believe and accept it. To reject one bit of God’s Word is to reject all of it.” —http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/midrash-and-jacob-prasch

    7. If I reject Midrash as he states it is found in God’s Word (as a scriptural facts of a hermeneutic, literary genre, prophetic interpretation of history, taught in God’s Word.) am I indeed boasting against the branches? Am I really rejecting God’s Word?

    8. I know the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. Do the Covenants and Scriptures still belong to Israel? Or are the Gentiles now included in the promise, (all the family’s of the earth) and are the scriptures not for us all (any man/woman of God)?

    9. Is Midrash a TRUTH and an EXEGETICAL REALITY that God uses to illuminate and illustrate? If so, where do we find this in HIS WORD? Finding the usage of the word itself does not make it truth or a reality for a method of interpretation.

    10. Do we see anything more in the Scripture than these words, “These things were written in the Midrash”?

    11. Do we know that Matthew “thought” midrashically? Where in the Word do we find that? Does anyone but God know another’s “thoughts”? So we have to rely on Jacob for this statement? Or someone else who is schooled in Hebrew, Judaism and has a theological background?

    12. If we do not have access to original languages can we then not understand His translated Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

    13. Was His Word preserved to each generation or not? Isn’t it God who preserves His Word?

    14. Don’t we have the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth?

    15. Is each believer equally able to understand the Word without knowing Hebrew, Judaism, theology, whether or not Midrash is demonstrated, are we or are we not able to understand God’s Word and be taught and given wisdom as His Word tells us?

    16. Does God differentiate between the Jew and the Gentile in any way, shape or form, or do we all have the ability to understand His Word? (See Acts 15, Rom 3:9, Rom 10:12, Gal 3:28, I Cor 12:13; Col 3:11)

    17. Does the Bible actually say that Midrash is a hermeneutic principle which Prasch also ascribed to Jesus and Paul? Do we see this mentioned, suggested, alluded to, hinted about in the Bible? Even if it was used in that day, weren’t most of the ways of the Pharisees, Saduccees and Jews distorted? Didn’t Jesus on more than one occasion say they made the Word of God of none effect through their traditions?

    18. Should we say it IS a “Biblical method” and call anyone who says otherwise “uneducated” and a “liar”? (Sound speech that cannot be condemned by your opponent?)

    19. Is the Midrash an “essential element” that was suppressed by Protestants? If so, then once again, Did God preserve His Word as He said He would? Or just part of it? Chapter and verse please?

    20. Do we need it (necessary) to “correct our understanding of the Bible”? Who is it that gives us understanding :)? Pr 22:17-21

    21. Has our understanding been “Flawed” all the years in that we can only understand the basics without the Midrash? So, people before did not have “complete understanding”, God’s Word didn’t endure forever? Wisdom wasn’t available to all who asked?

    22. Where do we get our understanding? I know it’s by our cooperation with the Holy Spirit by applying ourselves to the Word, but must I know the original Hebrew and Greek, and all the historical methods of interpretation to be able to understand? Or can I simply come as a child and ask Him for wisdom in the trust He will give it if I apply myself to it? Can I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth, including the right teachers?

    23. So can I not understand the Bible without either Jacob’s teaching or do I need decades of study and education in all these other teachings that may or may not be mentioned in His Word? (at least in the sense he explains it)

    24. Should we continually separate hermeneutics into Protestant/vs. Midrash or Jewish? Are we not to distinguish between us, (prior verses cited) or does he feel that a Gentile believer may not attain the same wisdom without “ancient wisdom” of the first century. Again, did God not preserve His Word to and for all of us?

    25. DID the Reformers borrow their Biblical interpretation from 16th century humanism? Just asking, everyone knows I am not “reformed”. Nor a “protestant”, Just a Christian as they were first called at Antioch.

    26. We can assume Paul was a Rabbi, but after Jesus, we see no mention of Rabbi and in fact an admonition to not be called Rabbi (or Father), by Jesus, so what might that mean? Could it mean that once we come to Him, the eyes of our understanding are enlightened through His Word and by the Spirit? Does His Word not say that if we ask, we will receive, if we seek we will find, if we knock it will be opened unto us? Again, NOT saying any of this cannot be useful, my HUGE issue is with the NECESSITY or you CANNOT understand anything BUT the epistles… that is all he says.

    27. The oracles of God were indeed entrusted to the Jews, but is the Bible a Jewish book, or was it written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic for a reason?

    28. Do we have to have a “Hebraic mindset”, or did the Holy Spirit already know who His final audience was when He inspired the Word?

    29. Is it the method of biblical interpretation we are taught that is our only hope to understand Revelation?

    30. Midrash is mentioned in the Bible, so is Enoch, should we suggest people need the book of Enoch to understand the Bible?

    31. How is this different from the Catholic church making claims that only its successors to the apostles, who are Latin trained can interpret scripture, with Prasch’s claim that only rabbinical Midrash folks [past and present] who are Greek and Hebrew trained are needed to fully understand the Bible?

    32. Why would any Christian, suggest that another explore things that do not back up doctrine? This seems to be an equivocation of sorts, and an exploration for “secret knowledge” using the Bible itself as mentioned above. *

    33. Isn’t this saying we need a certain “key” to understand God’s Word? Where is this found?

    34. If I reject Midrash, I reject what God originally breathed? I’ll let this quote stand for itself: Jacob said: “Those with their anti-Semitic Jew-hating agenda who simultaneously and hypocritically claim to worship the God of the Jews and believe in the Jewish Messiah reject what God originally breathed by rejecting Midrash.” —http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/midrash-and-jacob-prasch

    35. No other way to make scriptural or logical sense of what Paul says in Gal 4:21-31? As with the Matthean formula citations in the Nativity Narrative, there is no other way to make scriptural or logical sense of why he interprets Scripture as he does. It is pure Midrash. Doesn’t the Holy Spirit help us make scriptural/logical sense of Scripture?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Holly

    That is a brilliant comment that I would love Jacob Prasch to answer – maybe someone will email it to him? :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    This is a comment that was made by a person called DAWIE under another article many moons ago who is an avid JP follower… read this one: 2010/10/19 at 12:55 pm

    Every time you read Mat. 2:14, 15, 17. 25:1 -13; John 1: 1-11;46-51; 1Cor.10:1-11; Gal.4:22-30, you are reading Midrash. These are but a few examples of many.

    You don’t have to study Midrash to be saved, but it is the method employed by Jesus and His Apostles when they taught and the method the Jews of that time understood. Midrash basically means “a look into” or “an ivestigation”[See Strong H4097]. Midrash is never doctrine. It illuminates doctrine. For example, BL refers to the Passover Seder [above].

    By studying the passages of Scripture which refer to this we can see a pattern which illuminates the doctrine of the Atonement [using Midrashic methods], but we can’t make a doctrine out of this. Our doctrine comes from the clear teaching of the Apostles.

    The Reformers and those that follow them use the historical/grammatical method of exegesis and stop there. What a tragedy!

    My response to your claim that the Bible is the FINAL AUTHORITY may just shock some readers!

    Firstly this is not a Biblical statement! The risen Lord has ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth. HE IS THE WORD OF GOD [John 1:1,14; Rev.19:13]. In the OT He is described as “The Word of the Lord” [debar or imra].

    Secondly, neither Jesus or Paul said the Bible [referring,of course,to the Tanach] was “the Word of God” or “God’s final Authority”. In fact they both used the term “the Scriptures”. Jesus chided the leading Jews about their failure to recognise the purpose of Scripture in John 6: 37-40. The Scriptures of the Bible testify of Jesus and,instead of seeking eternal life in the written words of Scripture, they needed to come to Him,”THE WORD OF GOD” for eternal life.

    Paul said, “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

    I agree that the original texts of both Testaments in their original languages are without error and contain truth and are authoritative. However,the FULL TRUTH IS IN JESUS who is the Truth.

    No Debs, the Bible tells us that CHRIST JESUS IS OUR FINAL AUTHORITY.[Mt. 28: 18]

    If you go and look at Moriel’s statement of faith it says, “We believe in the complete Bible constituting the supreme authority for our faith and ministry. We accept the Bible as the only basis of true doctrine. ” —http://www.moriel.org/About_Moriel/About_Moriel.html

    But not the Final authority…

    Dawie, can’t understand something so important as this: that because Jesus IS the WORD OF GOD, that the Word of God is Jesus Christ; that the Bible is the Word of God; that the Bible is Holy Spirit inspired, Jesus Christ in published form; that Jesus is our Final Authority, therefore the Word of God/Bible is our FINAL AUTHORITY. The Holy Spirit illuminates the Word of God for the Born Again Believer.

    (John 14:26) “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 16:13) “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

  • Chris

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from "When will the Rapture Happen?"]

    Deborah.
    I appreciate your apology regarding your ignorance that you did not know that Midrash occurred in the Bible.

    At the time of your comment that Midrash is nowhere to be found in the Bible which should be basic knowledge should you be such a boffin on the topic, I find it amusing that you even commented on the topic, but then again we must admit that it is not comment but rather the work of a parrot who quotes others regarding the topic.

    Your concerns regarding Jacob’s involvement with Lausanne also proved your ignorance and your remark “NEWS FLASH! Someone ain’t telling us the WHOLE TRUTH! Was you not telling the whole truth.

    When eventually told what the truth was you responded with :” Ok, we will see this as Jacob Prasch being vindicated regarding Laussane, he knows what organisations he belongs too and does not belong too – Jesus after all does see everything.

    Which I see as a half heated attempt to acknowledge you ignorance also. There was no “NEWS FLASH” when the truth was revealed.
    You said: “Chris, instead of being spoon fed your information by Jacob Prasch who will tell you want he wants you to hear, do your own RESEARCH – please I beg of you to be a BEREAN!
    Deborah regarding the issues above you have been spoon feeding these errors to the undiscerning such as John, Redeemed and the rest and they believed you hence their support.
    In my research THUS FAR to establish the fraudulent Jacob Prasch I have rather found quote the opposite as is evident. As time permits I will go on to do so as the Bereans did with Paul, but as for the first two issues here you were wrong.
    When addressing others as being ignorant and erroneous you had much support from people like John who said “Great Research” regarding the Lausanne issue which was really no proper research at all as old documents were quoted without taking the very latest into consideration. (Date Feb. 2012)
    Then you had Redeemed back you up while never even having heard about Lausanne with a feeble attempt stating that the signing of the petition had no effect – at least we did something in the petition regarding Lausanne – have you? But then again you could not have as your knowledge concerning Lausanne was non- existent.
    You had much support from John, Redeemed and many others when addressing these issues wrongly, yet when you were proven wrong on both issues and by your own admittance AFTER being showed your ignorance these supporters fell silent. If this had been me for instance or Jacob or anyone else you all would have all published it all over and over and over to prove your point as you are doing already. This is hypocrisy something serious the Lord Jesus warns us not to do.
    Redeemed said: As for Chris, he declared that he would no longer participate in the discussion, then goes and tattles like a school boy
    Yes after this I am going to” tattle like a school boy” away from this site where your ignorance now has been identified. You need to consider to study to get more informed before making statements about things you have never heard of. I would suggest you go somewhere else where you are not given truth mixed with error as is the case here.

    Deborah regarding the statement I made about Jacob saying that those who believed in the pre-trib rapture as being heretics……I must admit that I cannot find it in Shadows of the Beast…..if you do please publish it. In our discussions by phone this might have been mentioned by you and I could have believed it. Whichever way – I stand either in correction to you or Jacob.
    Concerning [EDITED by DTW: Yes, backtrack why don't you and save yourself from the wrath of you master Jacob Prasch. You know fully well what you said on the phone Chris. You said you read it too, that he is basically calling us heretics! It was not that the word heretic appeared, but that he was actually calling us heretics based on the things he was saying about us!]

    1 Corinthians 5-7
    You quoted:
    1 Corinthians 5:11 KJV 1611
    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    KJV 1611 who is called a brother – NOT Who calls himself a brother (He was professed AS a bother and did not so profess HIMSELF as such)
    1 Corinthians 5:11 Amplified Bible (AMP)
    11 But now I write to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of [Christian] brother if he is known to be guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater [whose soul is devoted to any object that usurps the place of God], or is a person with a foul tongue [railing, abusing, reviling, slandering], or is a drunkard or a swindler or a robber. [No] you must not so much as eat with such a person.
    AMP who BEARS the name NOT who CALLS himself a Christian (He was professed as a bother and did not so profess himself as such)
    1 Corinthians 5:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    11 But [a]actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or (B)an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
    Although the NASB is not such a good translation it also says any SO CALLED brother – is Not one who CALLS HIMSELF a brother (He was professed as a bother and did not so profess himself as such)
    1 Corinthians 5:11 King James Version (KJV)
    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    KJV – That is called a brother NOT the same as one who calls himself a brother.
    1 Corinthians 5:11 New Living Translation (NLT)
    11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
    Living New Translation is even worse than the NASB and differs in translation with the KJV regarding many verses.
    For instance: Romans 8:1 you also mentioned on 16 Nov.”….. because all our sins are already forgiven through Jesus Christ and we will never be condemned for them which agrees with this version in in Romans 8:1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.
    Yet only half the verse is quoted when comparing it to the KJV – Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH IS OMMITTED. HALF THE VERSE HALF THE MEANING – HALF THEOLOGY.
    1 Corinthians 5:11 English Standard Version (ESV)
    11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
    Same thing who BEARS the name NOT CALLING himself a Christian.
    1 Corinthians 5:11 Common English Bible (CEB)
    11 But now I’m writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls themselves “brother” or “sister” who is sexually immoral, greedy, someone who worships false gods, an abusive person, a drunk, or a swindler. Don’t even eat with anyone like this.
    Same error as NLT Rom 8:1 So now there isn’t any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Half the verse, half the meaning.
    Seeing that you quoted Richard Engstrom regarding his questioning Prasch’ s views on Midrash who is Kings James only orientated, look at what people with similar views have to say about the Common English Bible you quote: This Bible is described as an ecumenical version by them; “
    “Another new translation has been foisted upon the church in 2010 and this one too is nothing but a corruption of the real Bible. The translation committee had a quite a number of unbelievers working on it. Some of which are below and the list comes from their own website. How can anyone trust this counterfeit when so many unbelievers have worked on it. Since when does God hand His Holy Word over to unbelievers for translation. This is a highly ecumenical version and should be avoided by all serious Christians. As one would expect, they used the Hort-Westcott Critical Text which is used by all modern versions, so then what makes this translation better than the other ones? Let me answer that in New Jersey English, “Nuttin!”
    Many other errors occur in this book.
    SO WHO IS NOW QUOTING FROM AN ECUMENICAL SOURCE? Wonder what your friend REDEEMED and other supporters think about this???? COMPROMISE that is what it is!
    Redeemed etc. listen to you GURU.
    See http://www.scionofzion.com/cebexposed.htm
    1 Corinthians 5:11 Good News Translation (GNT)
    11 What I meant was that you should not associate with a person who calls himself a believer but is immoral or greedy or worships idols or is a slanderer or a drunkard or a thief. Don’t even sit down to eat with such a person.
    Now the Good News is even more ridiculous to quote. Read this nonsense and compare it to a better and more accurate translation such as the King James. If you believe both you must be of two minds.
    These translations are not the same and convey many different meanings. It is significant for you to quote them to suit your purpose yet Paul calls us to be of one mind – these weaker versions are not of one mind.
    I wonder how Engstrom would react towards you regarding these issues – go ask him.
    To me, although the KJV and the Old Afrikaans translations have limited mistakes, I have found them to be much more reliable than many of what I have labelled here as weaker versions. If you want to see them as all the same………..well so be it and carry on in your confused state of mind regarding Scripture.
    Most of the new translations including the Message etcetera are used by the NAR to further their New World ecumenical thrust.
    You say: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 16:13) “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    These weak versions do not teach the same how can they like the Holy Ghost show you all things to come?
    William MacDonald who holds Calvinistic views has the following to say on Page 2192 of The Believers Commentary”
    “As has been indicated, there has been considerable disagreement among Christians as to the real nature of sin. The problem in brief, is whether it refers to:
    1. True Christians who subsequently turn away from Christ and are lost.
    2. True Christians who backslide but who are still saved.
    3. Those who profess to be Christians for a while, identify themselves with a local church, but then they deliberately turn away from Christ. They were never truly born again, and now they never can be.”
    He also says on the same page “No matter which way we hold, there are admitted difficulties. WE believe that the third view is the correct one because it is most consistent with the over-all teachings of the entire New Testament.”
    This is a Calvinistic view regarding salvation.
    To me there are no difficult verses in this regard only to the confused minds whose interpretations are wrong. God will not give us difficult verses, they become difficult when we do not understand them. That is our own interpretations which make them difficult.
    As Peter rightly wrote regarding steadfastness in the Lord:

    2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

    To believe what you do one HAS to change Scriptures to MAKE them mean what you believe and that is exactly what you have done and are doing Deborah. The Lord warns us that we must not think we stand lest we fall that includes us all.

    The Apostle John wrote:

    1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
    1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
    1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

    These are anointed people who were warned not to be seduced while the anointing taught them as well.
    Instruction – Abide in Him so that we may not be ASHAMED when He appears and may have confidence.
    “aischunomai” means disfigured, disgraced ashamed.
    The Old Afrikaans version says in verse 28: En nou, my kinders, bly in Hom, sodat ons vrymoedigheid kan hê wanneer Hy verskyn en nie beskaamd van Hom weggaan by sy wederkoms nie.
    Believe whatever you want to as we will both be judged according to what we have taught.
    Now with regards to Jacob and Moriel Ministries hear this! If and when I find out that they are deceivers and their doctrine has major faults I WILL react as I am doing now by leaving this site as I have found too many inconsistent statements wrenching Scripture out of context as well as ignorantly making statements which are not true as was acknowledged.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    That will be your last comment. You nastiness is unbelievable. You harp on the Luassane thing and making a big deal out of it using it as a smoke screen to duck and dive all the other serious issues.

    I will continue to expose Jacob Prasch no matter what!

    >> SO WHO IS NOW QUOTING FROM AN ECUMENICAL SOURCE? Wonder what your friend REDEEMED and other supporters think about this???? COMPROMISE that is what it is!
    >> Redeemed etc. listen to you GURU.
    >> See http://www.scionofzion.com/cebexposed.htm

    Oh get real will you. Looking for things to nail me on is not going to detract from the HORDE of ISSUES FACING JACOB PRASCH.
    If you READ, I said, “I went and just had a look at some bible translation (good and bad) to see what they say of the same verse… and it’s very interesting:”

    >> William MacDonald who holds Calvinistic views has the following to say on Page 2192 of The Believers Commentary”
    >>“As has been indicated, there has been considerable disagreement among Christians as to the real nature of sin. The problem in brief, is whether it refers to:
    >>1. True Christians who subsequently turn away from Christ and are lost.
    >>2. True Christians who backslide but who are still saved.
    >>3. Those who profess to be Christians for a while, identify themselves with a local church, but then they deliberately turn away from Christ. They were never truly born again, and now >>they never can be.”
    >>He also says on the same page “No matter which way we hold, there are admitted difficulties. WE believe that the third view is the correct one because it is most consistent with the over->>all teachings of the entire New Testament.”
    >>This is a Calvinistic view regarding salvation.

    Oh for for crying out loud. I am so tired of explaining this… Calvinists believe they are CHOSEN by GOD before they are born therefore they are ‘ONCE CHOSEN, ALWAYS CHOSEN’ anyone who does not accept their doctrine is therefore NOT CHOSEN. Biblical salvation says that, when you have free will, when you come to be genuinely saved the Holy Spirit SEALS YOU. THIS IS VERY DIFFERENT to Calvinism. My goodness, think a little bit why don’t you.

    According to you EVERYONE is that says they are Christian must therefore be a Christian, just different degrees of Christianity – so everyone sits on the ‘sin scale of 1-10′ 1- being bad, 5 luke warm, 10 being super good.

    If you want to believe that you can lose your salvation, then by golly Chris, work for it boy, work for it – work hard because 1 tiny weeny little sin in God’s eyes is that same as murder. So technically you should be unsaved because no man will be able to keep up with God’s requirements, and we are ALL SINNERS, we sin daily. But I am saved by Grace, sealed by the Holy Spirit who convicts me and I repent in earnest and I do my best to CHANGE MY WAYS and live a holy life that is pleasing to Him.

    As for you other accusations, insults after I apologiezed; I have been very nice to you, and all sorts… but your nasty comment are something else. Hmmm I can see why you don’t mind Jacob Prasch insulting people the way he does, because you pretty much do the same thing.

    You know what. I think you need to go away now, don’t comment and don’t phone me either and don’t email me either. Good-bye!

    Follow your master Jacob Prasch and the UNBIBLICAL Midrash.

  • Robbie

    Bold, obedient and brave Debs, as always.

    Fact.
    The hallmark of false teachers: “If you can’t dazzle ‘em with brilliance, baffle ‘em with a load of what horses drop!” Unfortunately, these types are successful because people don’t bother to check the Scriptures for themselves….

    They just don’t bother… We live instant lifestyle. People just would not spend time to dig in.

  • Truthful Conversation

    Well, I have been reading all through these comments and I find it all quite sad. It was not a thread/conversation I was following before, but I got involved and made a comment when I read what Jacob Prasch had said about John Chingford. I know John to be a kind, thoughtful man, one who goes by Biblical truth and not the words of man. His words are measured and considered. That is the reason I felt outraged at what Jacob had said about John.

    I am not getting involved in the specifics of this thread as I do not pretend to be knowledgable regarding any of it, and my focus is elsewhere. However, I would say that I think Chris should leave this site as he says he is going to do. He obviously feels that Debs is not ‘up to speed’ regarding Jacob Prasch, and he feels that way about Redeemed and John too. It appears to me that Chris wishes to continue to argue about Jacob’s position on things, but from what I read, he says that if he discovers Jacob is in error, he will leave there too. My advice Chris is that before you defend Jacob to the ‘death’, you should wait upon the Lord and see how things transpire regarding Jacob’s teachings and associations.

    These ‘debates’ are only becoming more heated and more divisive, and Chris you are making personal attacks on people. I am not, nor do I pretend to be, some great Bible scholar, although the Lord has taken me on a long journey of change, and He has revealed much truth to me in the last two years. I heard of Jacob’s book, Shadow of the Beast, and in fact it caught my interest and I was going to order it online. This was quite a while ago. For some reason, every time I thought about ordering the book, I felt a sense that I should wait. This, I believe, was the Holy Spirit leading me.

    I do know about Lausanne, I did some reading on it in the past. I do not know about Jacob’s involvement, or non-involvment. Quite frankly, I do not care. My thoughts on all this is that Jacob has proved himself to be a rude, arrogant man with an un Christlike spirit. For me, I am disinterested in Jacob’s beliefs whether they agree with mine or not.. I would not want to associate myself with a man that can ‘beat’ his fellow Christians with such abusive words.. regardless of the disagreement.

    All I desire to do is warn Christians of the lies and deception of the devil. I hate satan and I hate his lies. Those so-called men/women of God who propagate satan’s deceit and lead people on the road to destruction.. these people make me very angry, but I am always aware that ‘we wrestle not with flesh and blood…’. I might not have the knowledge of some, but the Lord has given me wisdom in some things, and I constantly read the scriptures and research the things I believe God would have me to learn and understand.

    I believe that Debs has a special ministry, and I know that she has a heart for truth. I also know that Debs is human and not infallible.. so even though I love her as a friend and I often ask her advice on things I do not understand, I do NOT follow after her. And Debs is the first one to tell you not to trust in her, but to trust in the Lord and His word. I have seen Debs acknowledge mistakes she has made in posts.

    Anyway folks, I think everyone should take a breather regarding Jacob Prasch, he seems to be taking over.. and as I said earlier Chris, you should leave this site. Debs must do what the Lord leads her to do in exposing false teachers and error. Chris, if you are the mature, wise Christian you say you are..stop running back and forth between DTW and Moriel and/or Jacob Prasch. As I said, you might defend JP only to discover that he is wrong afterall. If Debs is wrong she will be responsible to God.. but this constant harrassing of her and others on this site, it does not prove anything other than that you are a troublemaker, and I say that in all Christian love.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Truthful Conversation

    >> Well, I have been reading all through these comments and I find it all quite sad.

    Very sad indeed, you got no idea how sad I am.

  • Redeemed

    Chris, if you by chance drop by to see any further comments, I feel the need to respond to your last comment. Also, for the record for any others who have been following this thread.

    First of all, you told me to follow my GURU, Deborah. I have NO GURU. I do respect Deborah for her boldness to go where others don’t have the courage to go in exposing error to protect the precious flock of God. By her own admission she makes mistakes and she owns up to them. The Lord Jesus Christ is the One I serve and follow. And furthermore, if I found any indication that Deborah considered herself a GURU I would run from this site. Just a couple of points although THIS IS JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG.

    Regarding Midrash. Yes, TECHNICALLY it is in the Bible. But the greater point is that Mr. Prasch elevates it to the level of being a necessary tool in order to properly understand the Bible. That CONCEPT of exegesis based on Midrash is NOWHERE in the Bible, is it?

    Regarding the Lausanne issue, this is not the major concern here. In hindsight, it might have been better left unsaid. But Moriel is not guiltless concerning the greater issues of ecumenism as evidenced in other associations.

    Regarding the double-mindedness of embracing John MacArthur even though he is a Calvinist. How can this be justified?

    Regarding Mr. Prasch’s vitriolic and unChrist-like diatribe against a brother in Christ. Even if all the other issues could be settled, this should be enough to question the validity of Mr. Prasch’s teachings and if he is guided by the Holy Spirit, don’t you think?

    I am sorry that you were offended by my remark about the “tattling”. But that was exactly what it was. Why did you see the need to do that when you knew that Mr. Prasch would likely unleash a stream of insults that were not helpful or edifying in any sense of the word?

    Why did you feel the need to call in the “big guns” instead of doing your homework having a civil discourse here? If you wished to defend and clarify, that is helpful and would be received as brothers and sisters seeking the truth above personalities. But the inserted and forwarded comments only served to muddy the waters.

    These are rhetorical questions because as it stands you will not be commenting here again. As a fellow believer in Christ I exhort you to ask yourself these questions and seek the Lord in your prayer closet as we all should do.

    Mr. Prasch is spreading false teaching under a banner that has been long trusted. That is the case with many ministries and teachers who have veered off the path. It calls for constant vigilance. And when a much-loved teacher is questioned many will blame the messenger and reject the warning. That goes with the territory and Deborah is fully aware of that. Those of us who support her do NOT do so blindly. Some are researchers in their own right and depend upon the Holy Spirit ultimately. The greater concerns regarding Mr. Prasch’s teachings stand.

    This is not a personal attack on him. Mr. Prasch’s horrible words of attack were not answered in kind. His intelligence and his talents have not been questioned. His judgment and his choice of words have been. His fruit is being examined, as the Bible instructs. It gives a Berean no pleasure, only grief and heartache when a teacher falls away.

    I pray that you will put all aside and go into your prayer closet and devote yourself to seeking the Lord about these things. It is painful to come to the realization that someone trusted is no longer trustworthy. Been there – done that. If you have a sincere change of attitude and heart on these things I dare to say that your comments would pass moderation.

  • Andy

    Deborah wrote: “If you want to believe that you can lose your salvation, then by golly Chris, work for it boy, work for it – work hard because 1 tiny weeny little sin in God’s eyes is that same as murder. So technically you should be unsaved because no man will be able to keep up with God’s requirements, and we are ALL SINNERS, we sin daily.”

    This is pretty much what I tell people too, people that think that salvation can be lost. They don’t seem to understand that they sin every day, so why don’t they understand that they probably lost their salvation? Seriously, they’re wasting time talking about it on a website. They need to go get their salvation back.

    As for me, my salvation is secure (John 6:47). I can’t lose it.

    It was on this issue, that I pegged Prasch to be someone I refuse to listen to. He can’t stop talking about losing salvation. So he and his disciples need to watch themselves so they don’t lose their salvation, and stop wasting the time of those who cannot lose salvation.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    This is how the BEREANS acted:

    Acts 17:10-13
    10 The brothers sent Paul and Silas off to Berea at once, during the night. When they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
    11 These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.
    12 Therefore many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men.
    13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica heard that Paul had also proclaimed the word of God in Berea, they came there too, inciting and disturbing the crowds.

    They didn’t attack Paul and Silas and belittle them something terrible, insult them, mock them, no they eagerly received the message and went off to examine the scriptures carefully every day. A Christian attitude would not be to belittle, insult, and mock the messenger – but to go off quietly and study the scriptures to see if these things are true.

    We can clearly see that Chris’ version of a Berean is not the Biblcal version of a Berean.

    Moriel Ministries are using the Lausanne issue as a BIG SMOKESCREEN to try and blot out every other issue that has been listed under this article. Well sorry for YOU, but these below issues are not going to go away: I will mention them again:

    1) Slain in the Spirit teaching – You can find it here as well: on page 6
    2) demonic Nephilim teaching (in practically all videos and books JP mentions this)
    3) Midrash which is introduction to KabbalahMOST IMPORTANT!
    4) On 2 occasions I have seen Moriel (Jacob Prasch and Dave Royle) mention John Wesley (who believed you can lose your salvation) – this is works based salvation and George Whiefield (who was a Calvinist)

    Here Jacob Prasch says, “While John Wesley opposed the institution of slavery, even an otherwise outstanding figure like George Whitefield, because of the cursed Calvinism to which he foolishly subscribed owned Black slaves resulting in a shameful indictment on the memory of such a great man of God. -–http://www.moriel.org/Teaching/Online/Once_Saved/Once_Saved_Always_Saved.pdf [pg. 10/48]

    Again we, and again and again and again, we have Jacob speaking out of two mouths, for and against false doctrines. You can’t be a false teacher, believing in a false gospel AND be a man of God. He speaks against Calvinists but agrees and calls teachers of Calvinism men of God. Just like he says John MacArthur is a great preacher – how is this possible, if John MacArthur preaches a FALSE DOCTRINE leading people to hell! What is so great about that!

    There are plenty places where John Wesley and George Whitefield are mentioned by Moriel, you don’t have to look hard to find them quoted, praised, upheld as great men of God. How is this possible.

    Here on Moriel it says, “Read Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, D.L. Moody, George Whitefield – the people whom God used to bring revival to Britain.” —http://www.moriel.org/Teaching/Online/Death_of_Absalom/07_Grace.html

    From Wikipedia: John Wesley ( /ˈwɛzlɪ/; 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – 2 March 1791) was an Anglican cleric and Christian theologian. Wesley is largely credited, along with his brother Charles Wesley, as founding the Methodist movement which began when he took to open-air preaching in a similar manner to George Whitefield. In contrast to George Whitefield’s Calvinism, Wesley embraced the Arminian doctrines that were dominant in the 18th-century Church of England. Methodism in both forms was a highly successful evangelical movement in the United Kingdom, which encouraged people to experience Jesus Christ personally. Wesley’s teachings, known as Wesleyanism, provided the seeds for the modern Methodist movement, the Holiness movement, Pentecostalism, the Charismatic Movement, and Neo-charismatic churches, which encompass numerous denominations across the world. In addition, he refined Arminianism with a strong evangelical emphasis on the Reformed doctrine of justification by faith. —http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley

    4a) Strange view on salvation:
    From Dilemma of Laodicea [pg. 32]

    Salvation, Saved and Born Again
    - I have been saved
    - I am being saved, and
    - I am going to be saved.
    Similarily,
    - I have been born again,
    - I am being born again, and
    - I am going to be born again.

    You can find it here as well: on page 6 explained in more detail.
    He is speaking about past, present and future, trying to explain: justification, sanctification and redemption. This is not correct! It sounds ok, but when you think about it and look at the verses he has quoted it’s not right at all. He preaches you can lose your salvation which is not Biblical which would explain the strange explanation above: You get saved, you work hard at staying saved, and only in the end will be saved if you are obedient enough.

    5) Friendship with Chuck Smith from Calvary ChapelVERY IMPORTANT issue! I do not know how he can be friends with a man like that.
    6) Distorted eschatological view – he is anti Pre-Trib and calls those who believe in pre-trib false teachers and unbelievers deceiving the Elect.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andy

    I didn’t actually realise that JP believed that one can lose their salvation and therefore believed in a works based salvation. It was only when I started to investigate his teachings properly and listen properly to what some of this friends were saying, that it dawned on me that this was the case. And this is when I became very very concerned. It bothered me for a long time.

    I’ve been wanting to say something about JP for a long time, and I knew the backlash was going to be great because of my friendship with some people close to JP, but I love Jesus Christ more than life itself, and I follow HIM only, and I knew that I could not remain silent because remaining silent would be tantamount to accepting JP and his teachings.

    If you know of anything else about JP’s teachings that are wrong please email me. Thanks so much for commenting, you have been a great help.

  • Michael

    That’s right Andy…if you are truly regenerated…the old man dies at Golgotha, Christ bearing his sins and iniquities once and for all…you are identified with Him there and when He rose again, the regeneration of you takes place. If you do not have the dying to sinful self you cannot have the resurrection as well.

    As I have said before no where does it say in the bible you get born-again more than once…our Lord gave the answer to Nicodemus…to even infer or suggest this is not only ridiculous but totally misunderstanding the purpose of the Cross.

    The real problem with this issue is that the advocates of this have more than likely never been born-again in the true sense but have been misled by an experience. No experience,feeling,sensation or ritual can save you…only complying with God’s way…the application of the true gospel message can.

    Hallelujah what a Saviour!

  • Elizabeth C

    To all those who are dear to Jesus

    I accidentally stumbled onto discerningtheworld two days ago while on the internet, searching for topics on the rapture.

    I read the threads under the rapture heading which was very interesting

    My friend suggested that I read Shadows of The Beast so I read through the threads.

    I am not guided by the Spirit to leave my estimation on most the discussions here now, because I will need to read the book first.

    I also read a Greek bible and I checked and found Deborah’s comment on the 20th corresponding with my bible.

    The translation “so-called brother” implies that the sinner in question was only a professing Christian. However, there is nothing in the Greek text that justifies the rendering “so-called brother.” The Greek verb “to call” (kaleo) and the masculine pronoun “himself” (autos) are not found in this verse. The key word is onomazomenos a participle whose root is the word “name” (onoma). The Greek phrase tis adelphos onomazomenos literally means, “one who bears the name brother.” The ESV, NRSV, NKJV, and NIDNTT 655 get it right while the KJV is close. Other VSS (e.g., NASB, NIV, and NET) interpret tis adelphos onomazomenos (“one who bears the name brother”) for the reader rather than translate it and let the reader come to his own conclusions. Additionally, the context strongly suggests that the man in question is a genuine believer. In 5:1 this person is contrasted with Gentiles and with those in the world (5:12) and outside the church (5:9, 10, 12-13). Furthermore nowhere else the Greek verb (named or called) carries a sense of doubt (see Mark 3:14; Acts 19:13; Rom 15:20; Eph 3:15; 5:3; 2 Tim 2:19). Hence Paul contrasts the immoral believer with unbelievers. The equation of both is in their behavior not identity. —http://bible.org/seriespage/how-handle-scandal-1-corinthians-51-13#P78_34865

    In all humbleness may I please point something out to Deborah and respectfully see this as some positive attribution instead than hostility.

    Mentioned in the piece above the passage above kaleo and autos is not mentioned in the verse in my bible and underscores “to call” (kaleo) “himself” (autos) is absent from this verse.

    “The key word is onomazomenos a participle whose root is the word “name” (onoma). The Greek phrase tis adelphos onomazomenos literally means, “one who bears the name brother.”

    The is precisely the same as in my bible.

    “Additionally, the context strongly suggests that the man in question is a genuine believer. In 5:1 this person is contrasted with Gentiles and with those in the world (5:12) and outside the church (5:9, 10, 12-13). Furthermore nowhere else the Greek verb (named or called) carries a sense of doubt (see Mark 3:14; Acts 19:13; Rom 15:20; Eph 3:15; 5:3; 2 Tim 2:19). Hence Paul contrasts the immoral believer with unbelievers. The equation of both is in their behavior not identity. —“

    Does this not challenge the argument that this person was an unsaved person amongst believers because the paragraph above suggests (Additionally, the context strongly suggests that the man in question is a genuine believer)?

    The contrast is to show the readers the difference between the immoral believer and the immoral people who are unbelievers.

    Just though I will share with all of you.

    May our Saviour’s peace prevail in our hearts.

  • John Chingford

    IMPORTANT!

    —-
    Hi Everyone

    Although I had not yet sent any email to Jacob (in response to his outburst against me) yesterday he sent me a very nasty personal email. In it I was accused of things NOT TRUE.

    I sought counsel from some of my friends, evaluated what they said, prayed about it and then sent a reply to Jacob. I was reminded that “a soft answer turns away wrath”, so I started by apologising over something I had actually possibly got wrong. Basically, I tried to be as warm and gracious as possible according to Jesus’ instructions to us. I sensed God’s help with my attitude and the words I used. However, I still asked the important questions including why the ecumenical Jews For Jesus are still endorsed on Moriel website.

    I have now received a much softer email response from Jacob BUT NO APOLOGY. I will paste part of his email which tackles my specific questions. I am sure he wants you to see this.

    “We have had concerns about Jews For Jesus for some time and already decided to remove them from our recommended web links in 2013. They have good material for witnessing to Jews as resource material however so we are presently looking for a suitable replacement.

    We dropped Chuck Missler a long time ago. Although personal friends we rarely work together anymore beause he deviates into too many fringe element things we cannot endorse”

    Jacob also clarified that Moriel had left LCJE 15 years ago!!!

    My sources showed me a URL site showing that Moriel was still on the membership list. Maybe this person had a very old listing but didn’t make that clear to me. This is the problem sometimes with the internet. It isn’t always clear the date when articles are written and these sites sometimes fail to remove these statements. I would have thought that something as important as seeming to endorse ecumenism SHOULD BE TOTALLY DELETED from the site ASAP, otherwise it leads to misinterpretations.

    Having said this AS PROMISED, I publicly apologise to Jacob re what I wrote about his association with LCJE. I also would like to commend Moriel’s decision to remove their association with J4J and Jacob’s statement about Chuck Missler.

    Although Jacob is considered by many to be a very intelligent person, his skills in communication are very poor and often lead to misunderstandings, i.e he doesn’t really explain himself very well. Maybe his outbursts (in writing)are related to frustrations with himself at his inability to express himself properly IN WRITING. Although his speech is clear, his writing skills are very poor.
    —-

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    So

    Jacob Prsach says, “We dropped Chuck Missler a long time ago. Although personal friends we rarely work together anymore”

    So Chuck Missler and Jacob Prasch are still PERSONAL FRIENDS.

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-is-fruit-of-chuck-missler-and.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2011/12/roger-oakland-exposes-not-chuck-missler.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/02/chuck-missler-paired-up-with-jesuit.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/02/apostasy-of-dr-chuck-missler.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/06/purposeful-deception-at-chuck-misslers.html

    Just like Jacob Prasch is PERSONAL FRIENDS with Chuck Smith (Calvary Chapel).

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/05/are-vatican-and-calvary-chapel.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/05/chuck-smith-don-stewart-reveal-another.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/10/calvary-chapel-arrested-member-warning.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/10/calvary-chapel-costa-mesa-member.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/10/who-says-chuck-missler-calvary-chapel_17.html

    What does the bible say about the company you keep:

    2 Corinthians 6:14-15
    14 Do not become partners with those who do not believe, for what partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?
    15 And what agreement does Christ have with Beliar? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever?

    1 Corinthians 10:21
    21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot take part in the table of the Lord and the table of demons.]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elizabeth C

    Thank you! :)

  • Redeemed

    John, Mr. Prasch has authored many books. Saying he lacks writing skills and is frustrated because he lacks the ability to express himself is ridiculous! Mr. Prasch’s outbursts in writing are quite articulate and clear. He is an extremely intelligent and talented individual in no way hampered by the inability to communicate either orally or written. His terminology is that of an accomplished wordsmith.

    Does his statement of friendship with Mr. Missler not concern you?

  • Redeemed

    Andy, apparently Mr. Prasch holds to an Arminian theology and their version of “Conditional Preservation of the Saints”. They don’t consider this works-based because it is determined by faith and not works. Of course faith is evidenced through works. In other words they believe that a saved person has the free will to walk away and reject Christ. Whether that is final and one can change one’s mind again, I don’t know. From Wikipedia:

    Arminians believe that “It is abundantly evident from the Scriptures that the believer is secure.”[9] Furthermore, believers have assurance in knowing there is no external power or circumstance that can separate them from the love of God they enjoy in union with Christ.[10] Nevertheless, Arminians see numerous warnings in Scripture directed to genuine believers about the possibility of falling away in unbelief and thereby becoming severed from their saving union with God through Christ.[11] Arminians hold that if a believer becomes an unbeliever (commits apostasy), they necessarily cease to partake of the promises of salvation and eternal life made to believers who continue in faith and remain united to Christ.[12] Therefore, Arminians recognize the importance of warning believers about the danger of apostasy and exhorting them to persevere in faith as a means of building them up in their faith and encouraging them to mature spiritually, which is a sure and biblical way to avoid apostasy.[13]

    Of course there are many problems with this view. It is the polar opposite of Calvinism and seems to be spot on except for this facet of the belief. But a very false and damaging concept. This is not a thread about that, but the error of this belief should be obvious to those who understand eternal security of the believer and believe one is sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of regeneration and that process cannot be reversed.

  • Truthful Conversation

    EXACTLY Debs, we are known by the company we keep! The fact that Jacob admits to being friends with Chuck Missler is very telling indeed. How can light fellowship with darkness? And what does ‘rarely work together’ mean? Jacob should not ‘work’ with Missler…end of! However Jacob chooses to defend himself, he still had NO right to be abusive to John. I also believe that if Jacob feels that he cannot communicate very well, he should get someone to read and edit his replies!

    John received no apology from Jacob either..to me that is the sign of pride. I recently had to write a letter of apology to someone, it IS difficult, but if you love the Lord, you will be obedient to the Holy Spirit’s conviction. If Jacob has no conviction to apologise..then where does that leave him? Forget everything else he has got wrong.. he is just showing his true colours as a man.

  • John Chingford

    Redeemed wrote:

    John, Mr. Prasch has authored many books. Saying he lacks writing skills and is frustrated because he lacks the ability to express himself is ridiculous! Mr. Prasch’s outbursts in writing are quite articulate and clear. He is an extremely intelligent and talented individual in no way hampered by the inability to communicate either orally or written. His terminology is that of an accomplished wordsmith.

    Does his statement of friendship with Mr. Missler not concern you?

    Hi Redeemed

    Of course it concerns me that Jacob still claims friendship with CM. At least he agreed that he cannot endorse or condone CM’s activities, anymore. It is still puzzling that he says he rarely works with him now. This indicates that he STILL occasionally works with him. My question is “doing what and why?”

    I did not disclose much of Jacob’s email. The nature of his reply was clear (to me) that he wanted me to disclose the parts above to make his position known to all the DTW readers.

    Regarding Jacob’s communication skills, you may be correct. I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt unless proved otherwise.

  • Sherry B.

    I have found, for the most part, that those who are rabidly ANTI Pre Trib, are so because they KNOW that they are NOT going to be raptured, since they are usually not even true believers in Christ Jesus! They are “ministers of Satan” trying to masquerade as ministers of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, and their sole purpose is to try to confuse and dishearten real Christians in the faith. Their end will be according to their deeds as Jude tells us!

    We are to be watching for Jesus Christ! Even though God’s Word gives us description of the antichrist, NOWHERE in God’s Word are we directed to be looking for him nor the false prophet. The 144,000 Jewish converts will be the ones WARNING the world about the identity of the antichrist and false prophet, since they are those who will spread the Gospel AFTER we, the TRUE BELIEVERS, have been RAPTURED well before the Day of the Lord, otherwise known as The Tribulation.

    I firmly believe that there will be a period of time between the rapture and the beginning of the Trib, because certain events must happen in the world before the Trib begins. There must be something significant as per Gog/Magog war(Ezekiel 38-39) for antichrist to arise as a “savior” and confirm the 7 year covenant with Israel. When one looks at Israel today, they are NOWHERE near living “peacefully in unwalled villages”!

    If we take God’s Word for exactly what He says, we can see from the prophets of the O.T. that there is a chronology of end time events, some of which are already occurring today, at the very least, their “set-up”. In Revelation. Chapter 4, we see those raptured Believers as part of the 24 elders, white-robed,crowned, and seated on thrones. The first Seal judgment is the antichrist, and he doesn’t even appear until Revelation 6.

    False teachers and false peophets abound today- a sure sign that our Lord’s coming for us is very near. Chalk up J.P. as just another one of these, and it is not our worry who the AC or FP are. We will NOT be “earth dwellers” when they make their debut on Earth’s stage!

  • Redeemed

    Sherry B., you are right, our concern is not to arm ourselves with pointers on how to recognize the Anti-Christ. Mr. Prasch believes that it is dangerous not to alert the Body of Christ and prepare them for the Anti-Christ.

    Genuine believers can have honest differences in eschatology, but I do believe that Satan is making a concerted effort to rob the Church of the Blessed Hope and preoccupy the Church with worldly preparations instead of focusing on redeeming the time.

  • Micheline

    Sherry, I believe you are spot on.

    We should look to Jesus more than we do to who the AC will be. We are wasting precious time by spending more time in discovering the dark side instead of the light.

    I personally hope there is still enough time, I still have soooooo much to learn. There is soooo much information that I can’t learn quick enough. I have this constant hunger for what God says but I’m struggling at the moment with all the information. I read the Word, understand it but later can’t recall where I’ve read it. I know, baby steps, patience, persistance and lotsa prayers.

  • Andy

    I have found that many that are against the pre-trib position, feel that the church needs to “suffer more”. And my response to them on that is, they themselves personally are welcome to do all the suffering they want to. They can move to Iran or North Korea and do some open street preaching, and I can assure them that will bring them the sufficiency of the suffering they seek. In fact they’d be doing the church a favor by preaching in two spiritually dark places as those.

    But the Bible makes it clear that the rapture is pre-trib.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Micheline

    >> I read the Word, understand it but later can’t recall where I’ve read it.

    You’re not the only one :) I make notes and forget where I put my notes.

  • Micheline

    Debs, hahaha, tooo true!!! I loose my glasses too!!!! Thank goodness I can’t have anymore children, I would have misplaced the poor child on a regular basis. :)

  • Elisheva QUICK

    [deleted - I can't make out want you are trying to say and it's annoying - Go defend JP to the death.]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Soooooooo to try and appease Pre-Tribulationists Moriel Ministries has an article about Pre-Tribulationism. This is a fascinating trait that Jacob Prasch has; to speak out of two mouths, we can also call it fence hopping; hops the fence to say one thing, then hops the fence to say another, then hops the fence to say one thing, then hops the fence to say another.

    So here is the report from Moriel’ site on 11th Nov 2012 http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/church-issues/when-will-the-rapture-take-place#more-8713

    It matters none because of the countless newsletters Moriel have sent out teaching a ‘partial rapture’ theology, denoucing pre-tribulationism – Partial rapture theology is a doctrine that states only OBEDIENT Christians will make it into the rapture, disobedient/backsliden Christians will miss the rapture and go through the tribulation.

    No the article release on the 11th Nov, sounds much better than what JP said in Shadows of the Beast (but it’s not important really, because we know JP only says what he wants YOU to hear at the time)

    BUT HOWS THIS, this report includes this:

    “The good expositors, scholars, and authors in the contemporary church worth reading are those like Warren Wiersbe , David Hocking, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Paul and Chuck Smith, Ray Yungen, Warren Smith, Tony Pearce, Bill Randles, Jack Hibbs, Philip Powell , Kay Arthur, Johanna Michaelsen, and Dave Hunt.”

    Although he does recommend Harry Ironside:

    “Read the classics such as AW Tozer, John Bunyan, Harry Ironside, Andrew Murray, FB Meyer, Francis Schaffer, Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, JC Rile, Alfred Edersheim”,

    Um, *coughs and splatters*

    What a mishmash of Moriel’s “trusted” teachers. Let’s look at these:

    Warren Wiersbe (An ecumenist), David Hocking (is questionable) Arnold Fruchtenbaum (He has gone ecumenical) Paul (brother of Chuck Smith and an apologist for Calvary Chapels) and of course the infamous Chuck Smith (false teaching galore), Jack Hibbs(Calvery Chapal, in with Chuck Smith, see: “A Christian Nation”, a David Barton fan (who is a Dominionist) Kay Arthur (Ecumenical)

    Then the next list:

    “Read the classics such as AW Tozer (I put a question mark at his name because he lists every possible Mystic as being great Christians. Bernard of Clairvaux, John of the Cross, Molinos, Nicholas of Cusa, John Fletcher, David Brainerd, Reginal Heber, Evan Roberts, General Booth, Teresa of Avila and Madame Guyon,Meister Eckhart, Thomas Traherne, Richard Rolle, William Law, Walter Hilton, Francis de Sales, Jakob Boehme and Gerhart Tersteegen etc, etc, etc! ) John Bunyan, Harry Ironside, Andrew Murray (Rise of modern charismatic movement, tongues and other phenomenon were reported at Andrew Murrays meetings, strongly advocated that the baptism with the Spirit was a second experience distinct from conversion) FB Meyer, Francis Schaffer, Charles Spurgeon (Calvinist) John Wesley (Arminian, Wesleyanism provided the seeds for the modern Methodist movement, the Holiness movement, Pentecostalism, the Charismatic Movement), JC Rile (should be J.C. Ryle, and is a Calvinist) Alfred Edersheim

    So as we can see, this is exactly what one would expect from a double-minded man such as Jacob Prasch.

    It is dangerous to align oneself with a laundry list of teachers, either living or dead. It shows a lack of Bereanship. Then we have to ask the question, where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

    I am not at all impressed by this even if he does list Dr. Harry. I don’t think Dr. Harry Ironside would be at all pleased.

    Previously I mentioned on another comment where Moriel says,

    Read Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, D.L. Moody, George Whitefield – the people whom God used to bring revival to Britain.” —http://www.moriel.org/Teaching/Online/Death_of_Absalom/07_Grace.html

    Here Moriel lists D.L. Moody as someone worthwhile reading. D.L. Moody believed in the ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’ as something separate from conversion. He got his ideas from his co-worker, Dr. Torrey.

    Moody said, “The Holy Ghost coming down with power is distinct and separate from conversion. Instead of urging a convert to seek the gift of the Holy Ghost, that he may be anointed for the work, we let him sleep. This world would soon be converted if all such were baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

  • ANYONE attached to Chuck Missler is in trouble, whether it be they work for him, are friends with him, or they like him.

    Chuck Missler is PARTNERED with Tim LaHaye, here is the 2007 one minute video clip of Chuck Missler announcing his partnership with Tim LaHaye -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qFY-5ZV9ghM

    Tim LaHaye took money from the antichrist Sun Myung Moon and told Sun Myung Moon “Your suffering will cleanse the sins of America”, here is the DOCUMENTED proof -

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/06/tim-lahayes-satanic-flow-chart-with.html

    Sun Myung Moon–>Tim LaHaye–>Chuck Missler–>Jacob Prasch–>Anyone who associates with Jacob Prasch

    2 Corinthians 6:16-17 – “And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.”

    Romans 16:17 – “Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID them.”

    Where is the Holy Spirit’s discernment with Jacob Prasch if he claims to be friends with a guy who is attached to an antichrist?

    Answer – Jacob Prasch doesn’t have the Holy Spirit and his lifelong arrogance he just displayed for us is PROOF -

    “a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan”

    “an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    Acts 5:32 – “…the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him.”

    Obedience (Love of Jesus – John 14:15)= the Holy Ghost

    Jacob Prasch and all his phony “theology teacher” friends may be able to slice & dice scripture up one side and down the other, but they lack obedience to The Word Of God who is our Lord & Savior (Rev 19:13).

    The phony “merchandi$ing di$cernment mini$trie$” are showing their bad fruit with their avoidance to expose Chuck Missler and his attachment to the antichrist’s Tim LaHaye and more recently exposed, William Welty.

    William Welty is business partners with the occultic Disney. Here is the DOCUMENTED PROOF -

    July 20, 2012 –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/07/chuck-misslers-swansat-linked-to-beast.html

    July 23, 2012 -

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-chuck-missler-william-welty.html

    July 27, 2012 -

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/07/hey-dicernment-minitrie-what-about.html

    Here is an article where we sent the phony “merchandi$ing di$cernment mini$try” Eric Barger an email to his own article exposing Chuck Missler’s attachment to Disney that shows Eric Barger speaking out against Disney, AND HE DID NOTHING!!!

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/08/will-eric-barger-take-stand-on-missler.html

    These guys are in it for the MONEY!!!

  • Elisheva QUICK

    Criticism is to be done for the purpose of RESTORATION, not condemnation .
    There is a fine line and balance between legalism, fault finding and necessary protection.
    “Sela”

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Debs,

    I have been following this thread on and off.
    Jesus said:
    Luke 10:21 “In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.”
    That comforts me (I would dare say us), who am a nobody.
    Let’s pray for JP and all “The good expositors, scholars, and authors in the contemporary church” that they will descend from their pride and become as “babes”, that they may see.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elisheva

    Criticism, Legalism, fault finding… L.O.L

  • John Chingford

    Elisheva QUICK wrote:

    Criticism is to be done for the purpose of RESTORATION, not condemnation .
    There is a fine line and balance between legalism, fault finding and necessary protection.
    “Sela”

    Elisheva, I appreciate the sentiment. In most cases you are absolutely right. We do try (as much as possible) to do exactly that i.e restore such a one, but many of these BIG named public speakers are well past that stage and become so proud and arrogant that they do not listen anymore. What did the apostle Paul say or advise in such cases? Here are 2 examples:

    Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them

    The next is an example of Paul naming names:

    2 Tim 4:14 says Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. 15 You too should be on your guard against him, because he strongly opposed our message.

  • Redeemed

    Paul, your aspirations are commendable, but I don’t know what “good expositors” you are referring to. if you mean those who are high profile. They have fallen like dominoes and they prop each other up in their networks and associations. I would rather think that pigs will fly before we see them humble themselves.

    The ones we should pray for are the nondescript discerners and watchers who are doing what they can to alert the Church and the humble pastors who faithfully plow the ground they have been given in their little churches. They are out there and have been largely forgotten and considered unimportant because they don’t have any published books or large ministries. They are the true heroes of the faith.

  • Duane

    Hey Guys
    (1)Comments on Mark Biltz
    (2)What is the concern Biblically with KH (Chuck Missler)

  • York

    Hi

    I am new here, and this site site is very good in the sense that it promotes healthy discussion about important aspects of christianity.

    I have read some of Jacov Prasch’s articles and find them very informative.
    When I first came across these teachings, it sort of rocked at my foundational understandings of scripture. The more I prayed about it, seeking the illuminating power of the Holy Spirit, the more I realized that there is a lot of truth to be found here.

    I do not have enough knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin, but I know that people will argue even if using a dictionary for these languages. Because, you have to ask, who wrote the dictionary itself ?

    I don’t have a problem believing that there will an anti-Christ, since the bible is clear about the “son of perdition”.

    I believe it could very well be the last pope, since he will unify all the world religions together.

    A person does not have to believe Midrash in order to be saved. It is there for deeper understanding of scripture.

    It is also correct to identify false teachers based on the evidence, since that is what Paul did. We must protect the flock from the wolves. There are so many of these wolves out there in the world today. identifying word-faith prosperity preachers should be a given for a true christian, as their heresies are obvious.

    However when you go to the “next level”, you will find things become more subtle. For example annihilationism says that our souls will be “destroyed”, but the bible indicates that the souls of the wicked will be “tormented forever”.

    I know Rob Bell teaches annihilationism, or at least “implies” it. This is severe heresy since it makes a mockery of the work on the cross, and, it actually gives people license to sin, since a person can say,”Oh well I am going to dissappear anyway,so I am OK”.

    What we should not do however is to condemn a person to hell based on a certain teaching. Only God knows whether that person can still come to repentance before death. We should pray for them.
    In fact the bible says that if you condemn someone else you condemn yourself. This is why I NEVER say to someone ,”You are going to hell”. One can only warn a person about the DANGERS of hell, IF they carry on in a certain lifestyle.

    The complicated part comes in when you consider that the bible says that the standard of judgement that you apply to someone else shall be applied to you. Now this raises several questions :

    1. If you insist that a believer MUST believe a certain set of doctrines in a certain way, then what are those doctrines ? How do those doctrines affect a person’s salvation ? Could it maybe also indicate that they were never saved to begin with ?
    I can think of an example. I have a friend who follows the health, wealth prosperity teachings of Kenneth Copeland and applies it to his life. We have had numerous discussions about this, but his heart remains hardened, due to the fact that I believe he has the “spirit of delusion” in him refered to in the book of thessalonians.
    Only the Holy Spirit can change him now, and until that happens I believe he is in grace danger of going to hell.

    2. If we impose a set of doctrines upon others, will God not then be more strict about our personal doctrinal views ? Will He not one day say,”You told others to believe this and that, but you failed to believe this, therefore I reject you” ?

    3. Also, will He not be more strict about our lifestyle and our sins, especially if we tell others that a certain activity is a sin, but then we practise something that is actually related to that ? For example there are people that software for online casinos. Are they condemned to hell ? Especially if you consider that these sites ruin people’s lives. Then again there are those who say that it’s no different than working for a company that sells liquor,beer and wine. But is it ? The bible doesn’t condemn drinking, only excessive drinking, but gambling is IN OF ITSELF wrong according to the allusions in scripture and it’s implications.

    But ethics and morality is another discussion.

    Let us love one another and help one another and carry each other’s burdens, and let us not become spiritually proud, since NO ONE has all the answers, since no one is like God.
    Keep safe in Jesus name
    Cheers

  • In the book “Shadows of The Beast” i go to great lenths in the oreface to pay due tribute to my pre trib brethren , endrsing by name the ministries of several of them.

    The invented out abd out lie by “Deborah” that I call such brethren heretics in the book or elsewhere is a vicious and demonstrable lie obviolly embraced by her lunatic followers such as “Redeemed” etc. Sherry B. rather statss vicious things. One of these religious fruitcakes calls those not in agreeement with pre trib, “Ministers of Satan”. The point is that it is fully documented that Deborah is lied and spread slander. We are warned such people would come in the last days by Paul in 2 Tim. 3:3 where the term for such liars as Deborah is “diaboloi” or demonic people. Plainly, anyone who tells such obvious lies aimed to misrepresent the truth to others with an intent to defame is demonic. The Word of God, not Jacob Prasch , calls Deborah ‘demonic’.

    Redeemed and the Mawany etc. who believe her on face value without examining the facts themselves which prove she lied are in violation of
    The Word of God themselves (John 7:51). I will not comment on William Saunders because I know him to be a deceiver who secretly tape records conversations with an aim to distortion abd entrapment and such a low life is not worth the time of day.

    Deborah however delights in lying. Another lof her lies is that I am anti KJV. The article and recording I did in the public domain entitled “the Plastic Bible” only has me expressing hatred fir ‘The Message’, inclusivist translations, and the 2012 gender inclusive edition of the NIV. The KJV however is endorsed in that transcript and on that recording as a valid translation. In the book I authored on Laodicea, William Tyndale ( upon whose earlier work the majority of the KJV was based by Coverdale etc.) is extolled as a great hero for Christ and Erasmus of Rotterdam, who fused together the four earlier Byzantian manuscripts into the Textus Receptus which forms most of the Greek basis for the KJV New Testament is lauded as a great scholar who did more to engender Reformation than Luther.
    Please read fir yourselves, Deborah is. Proven liar abd be prima faci documented as a liar in any court of law by the rules of Juris Prudence although I do not sue other Christians despite the fact that I must question if this slandering witch and daughter of Jezabel is one. No liar shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven . I hope this pathological liar repents for her own sake.

    Not only is she a liar however, she is a fraud and a charlatan. What makes her an ignoramus is not that she did not know that midrash was actually in the scriptures, nor that she associated my belief in what is scriptural with the later writings of the rabbis they too called midrash which I in the book openly warn against ( she loves to identify me with what I have actively opposed). These things just add further credence to the fact that she is nothing more than a contemptable demonised liar.

    What makes her an ignoramus is that she misrepresents herself chronically as knowing things she plainly does not be ause of her narcissistic arrogance.

    Anyone wanting a bibliography of conservative Evangelical scholars who affirm the use of scriptural midrash by the New Testament authors which accounts for the way the manner in which the New Testament handles the Old Testament, or woshes to know the difference between the use of midrash in scripture and the later corruptions of the term by the rabbis is invited to visit the Moriel website and other websites examining these issues,

    Matthew, Mark, Luke and John whom we can the Evangelists authored four gospels in the First century. Hundreds if years later in the fourth and fifth centuries Gnostic herestic authored other fraudulent accounts of Jesus they also called gospels ( eg. The Gopel of Thomas accepted by Islam). Anyone who rejects Matthew , Mark, Luke, and John because centuries later gnostics wrote other so called gospels would have to be an idiot.

    Likewise, while I do not believe we need extra biblical sources to understand God’s Word ( and never have contrary to the filthy lies of a filthy demon inspired liar named Deborah) , to reject a perfectly scriptural hermeneutic like Midrash because rabbis came along centuries and wrote rubbish they called midrash would be the same brand if idiocy. Deborah is just such an idiot.

    Not knowing who the late Dallas Semi ary President John Walvoord is in regard to pre trib is like not knowing who Luther is regarding the Reformation. Shre stupidly writes that if read from the begining 2 Thessalonians 2 is not about the rapture when Paul states absolutely in the first verse that it is about the ‘episunagoge’ our gathering to Jesus at His coming (at which point The Day of The Lord’ is inaugerated). This is a very stupid woman indeed. Proverbs warns us that even a know nothing appears wise if they have the common sense to keep their mouth shut when they do not know what they are talking about.

    Why would anyone other than an undiscerning simpleton pay any attention to a slandering witch motivated by demons? Why would people like Redeemed etc. disregard the Wordif The Word and swallow open lies while claiming to have discernment.

    John Chingford apologised for his attempts to associate me with Laussane which I left in protest over 15 years ago and have warned against and even signed a petition against. True, his efforts to link me via Chuck Smith to Lonnie Frisbee and Kathryn Kuhlman, two figures I never even met but have in print warned against. Wereinfuriating. It did result in my calling him a crackpot and a thus etc.

    But your bloggers overlook the established fact that what he wrote against me is proven wrong and he himself now apologetically admits was wrong.

    If anyone has real discernment, they will avoid this disgusting liar . She is inspired by demons , she us ignorant of the matters she asserts herself about, and above all she is proven to be acompulsive patholigical liar.

    Those on this website are fellowshipping not in truth or in the Spirit of Jesus, but in ignorance, stupidity, and lies.

    These are the facts.

    I only rise to my defense for the sake of any young believers being miled by this wicked daughter of darkness and the demons from whom she unknowingly takes her orders.

    I warn you from The Word of God on the basis of the documented facts that Deborah is a servant of demons. Examine the facts, examine the scriptures and stand accountable before God for your own decisions.

    In Christ,

    Jacob Prasch
    Moriel

    [Edited by DTW: 3/12/2012 - HERE IS A SCAN OF PAGES 20 and 21: JacobPrasch-ShadowsOfTheBeastQuotes-Pg20,pg21]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jacob Prasch

    I am only going to say this.

    Thanks you for all the horrible name calling, calling me a servant of Satan etc, etc, etc, etc.

    — You say I lie that you “call such brethren heretics” but yet you do insinuate that we are heretics just in the Prologue alone in your book Shadows of the Beast:

    [Here you are talking about going through the tribulation: "Jacob Prasch says: "Jesus Himself warned us of false Christs and false prophets in the Olivet Discourse, yet just as Preterists falsely teach it not longer applies to Christians because it has all (instead of partially) transpired in the events surrounding A.D. 70, Pre-Tribulationsists are left agreeing with them that it does not apply to us because we have already been raptured before the Antichrist and False Prophet become and issue." [Emphasis added] —Shadows of the Beast, Jacob Prasch, pg. 20]

    So here you calls us false Christ / false Prophets.

    [Here you says, "The rapture and resurrection cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation Chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth with must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect [Emphasis added] —Shadows of the Beast, Jacob Prasch, pg. 21]

    Therefore you are saying we are not the Elect, we are false Christians deceiving the Elect.

    ****** False Christ/False Prophets deceiving the Elect = heretics.

    [Edited by DTW: 3/12/2012 - HERE IS A SCAN OF PAGES 20 and 21: JacobPrasch-ShadowsOfTheBeastQuotes-Pg20,pg21]

    — I never said, “you are anti KJV.” you are telling stories – get your facts straight, don’t confuse me with what other people say about you.

    Your friends are FALSE TEACHERS (Chuck Missler, Chuck Smitch, etc!) not my friends – I scrutinize my friends and if and when I find out they are biblically wrong on serious issues I part ways immediately! Some people hide the fact that they are not really Christian and it takes a while to find out that they are not who they say they are, but WHEN the FACTS are in your FACE, you are commanded by God to not associate with evil.

    — You use EXTRA Biblical sources to examine the Bible, not me.

    — You speak out of both sides of your mouth, not me – You praise people who hold to pre-trib views and then slate people who hold to pre-trib views all in the same breath. (you call us false Christ/false Prophets, a deception perpetrated against the Elect – which in a way you are saying we are heretics – you better scold Chris with the worst possible words you can find as well because he too says that he read you say we are heretics – see Chris’ comments “Now, concerning what Jacob says in his book Shadows of the Beast regarding those who believe in a pre-trib rapture are heretics…….took me by surprise as well” When will the Rapture Happen? 2012/11/16 at 8:33 am)

    But getting back to your double standards and support for false teachers and false teaching, for instance here you say,

    “May God Bless Dave Hunt, Roger Oakland (I’m deleting RO because I know you don’t support him anymore, so I;ve been told.), Tony Peace, David Hocking, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Warren Smith, Ray Yungen, Chuck Smith, Jack Hibbs, Bill Randles, Philip Powell, Mike Gendron, David Wilkerson, Ray Comfort, Justin Peters, Paul Washer, John MacArthur, Stuart Dool, Doug Harris, John Higgins, Joseph Fara, Bob De Waay and the other servants of the One True God who labor to uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel in this age of apostasy and decline. None of these men are perfect or without flaw, nor above all either am I. But by the grace of God all of them tell the truth. [Emphasis added] http://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/church-issues/what-are-we-left-with

    Look at that mixture! Look at those CALVINISTS and DOMINIONISTS you call servants of God…and you say, “But by the grace of God all of them tell the truth.”

    — I don’t care to know who the late President John Walvoord from the Dallas Seminary is, I care to know what is in the Bible regarding the teaching of the Rapture and correct biblical interpretation.

    — John apologised to you (for mis-understanding that you used to belong to the Luasanne movement, but no longer do, that you do belong to Jews for Jesus who are ecumenical they believe that Catholics are christian too – which you stated you will only be leaving only at the beginning of 2013.) and you never even bothered to apologize back to John for calling him those ghastly names.

    — You say that we cannot understand the bible without Midrash, were I believe we can understand the Bible with the Holy Spirit only

    Slain in the Spirit teaching – on page 6

    Demonic Nephilim teaching in practically all your videos and books (This is the same teaching as Chuck Missler)

    — Moriel loves mentioning John Wesley (who believed you can lose your salvation – this is works based salvation) and George Whiefield (who was a Calvinist)

    — Praise for John MacArthur (Calvinist) among other false teachers.

    — Moriel teach that you can lose your salvation.

    Distorted eschatological view: anti Pre-Trib.

    Preaching of a ‘partial rapture’ theory where only obedient saints will be raptured, disobedient saints will go through tribulation.

    Strong Messianic teaching – calling Christians back to their Hebrew Roots. Apparently we have a different theology to those who have Midrash. Jacob says, “Something went wrong in the early Church; it got away from its Jewish roots. And as more Gentiles became Christians, something that Paul (in Romans 11) warned should not happen, happened. People lost sight of the root. Whenever you have a change in world-view, you’re going to have a change in theology.” http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

    Thanks for you comment, it will be a wonderful eye opener to many :)  People are most definitely examining the facts. I ask that everyone please read this article by Jacob Prasch and see for themselves: http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

    I never insulted you, or judged you. I feel sorry for you Jacob, I pray that God softens your heart and opens your eyes to the truth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    I do not know what you are on about.

    No one is condemning Jacob Prasch, his false teaching however condemns him, the words he says condemns him.

    Matthew 12:36-37
    36 I tell you that on the day of judgment, people will give an account for every worthless word they speak.
    37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    >> Let us love one another and help one another and carry each other’s burdens, and let us not become spiritually proud, since NO ONE has all the answers,

    We carry each others burdens? Really?

    Luke 11:46
    46 But Jesus replied, “Woe to you experts in religious law as well! You load people down with burdens difficult to bear, yet you yourselves refuse to touch the burdens with even one of your fingers! (Matt 23:4; Acts 15:10)

    No. Jesus carry’s my burdens.

    Matthew 11:28-30
    28 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry.”

    >> since NO ONE has all the answers,

    All the answers are in the Bible. Yes we DO have ALL the answers because the Bible says, the Holy Spirit will lead you into ALL truth, not some truth.

    John 16:13
    13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come.

  • Redeemed

    Mr. Prasch’s references to Deborah are shocking:

    7 times Liar
    2 times Pathological Liar
    3 times Slanderer
    1 time Fraud
    1 time Narcissist
    1 time Charlatan
    7 times Demonic
    2 times Witch
    1 time Daughter of Jezebel
    1 time Ignoramus
    1 time Wicked Daughter of Darkness
    1 time Idiot
    1 time Stupid

    How can these be the words of a man of God?

    Mr. Prasch presumes to judge the heart which the Word of God forbids. No one here has judged either Mr. Prasch’s heart or his motives.

    Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice. And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you”. Ephesians 5: 29-32

    “So then my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.” James 1:19-20

    Jesus said in Matthew 5:44: But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

    Therefore, Mr. Prasch, I choose to overlook your insults and hateful remarks to me personally and pray for you. I will not respond in kind, but rather extend to you a blessing. I am truly concerned for you.

  • Micheline

    Dear Mr Prasch,

    As a young person in Christ, I was given a few CDs and DVDs by people who wanted me to learn more about our Saviour. I listened to your “The Belt of Truth” sermon and enjoyed your presentation, actually I learned a lot – Thank you.

    It is however heart-breaking to have read your post above. As a man of such knowledge on the Scriptures, I expected a different approach from a man of your stature.

    I was reminded of Mat 12:34, where the Lord speaks of “the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”

    Yes, I am a nobody, my words probably will have no effect on you BUT you have lost a listener.

  • Andy

    Jacob Prasch first turned me and my wife (a Jewish believer) OFF over his continual rancid speech, calling people “stupid”, “lunatic”, and so on. I need not add any addition to what he wrote. He showed you himself of what attitude his speech takes, filled with pride and blind arrogance.

    Then once I examined his doctrine, I found that he teaches you can lose salvation, which is a false gospel. I would assume that he figures berating people is not going to make him “lose” his salvation?

    Then I saw how he plays both sides of doctrinal issues, agreeing with two contradictory doctrinal views at the same time. Bizarre. What more can be added about who he is? He showed you his true colors in his own post.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andy

    True colours indeed!

  • Jacob said -

    “I will not comment on William Saunders because I know him to be a deceiver who secretly tape records conversations with an aim to distortion abd entrapment and such a low life is not worth the time of day.”

      In January 2011, Roger Oakland found out someone was spreading such incredible destructive rumors about Roger, rumors that could destroy someone and/or their ministry. Roger had no idea who it was.

      Myself and Martin Hardy (who were both working for Roger) found out who that was and reported it back to Roger. Roger had no idea we were “going to bat” for him.

      The only comment we said was “What’s up with Roger?” and the person went in to “Roger Oakland destruction mode” using CLINICAL terms. It was that easy, we didn’t have to say anything else. Totally the Lord.

    Looking back on the whole thing, knowing what we know today, we see what is really happening.

    In our ignorance, Martin & I thought we were going out to Phoenix, AZ to stick up for one of the “good guys” (Roger Oakland) in the midst of all these apostate guys.

    Now we see it’s just a bunch of “bad guys” that are all fighting for position & prominence while the apostate gullible sheep are clueless.

    The apostate gullible sheep have no idea of the profanity, greed for money/power/position that takes place “behind the scenes” with all these guys at the top of what is considered “Christian leadership”.

    So, what we have seen is infighting taking place at the top while they all have to maintain the perception that everything is OK to the apostate gullible sheep. It’s so bogus.

    Unless you see it for yourselves, it really is hard to believe. These guys all have the awareness they need to “maintain” the perception in front of “the sheep” but when nobody is looking it’s “gloves off”.

    Jesus told us in Matthew 7:20 – “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

    Look at the FRUIT!! Look at the FRUIT!! Look at the FRUIT!!

    Galatians 5:22-23 – “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    23 MEEKNESS, temperance: against such there is no law.”

    Jacob Prasch HIMSELF just laid out for us his fruit, it was a gift from the Lord.

    Did you see any humility? NONE!!

    The gullible followers will say it’s FRUSTRATION. We know that’s baloney.

    When I pray, I ask the Lord that these guys would expose themselves, that unless these guys repent every move would be the wrong move. The Lord has been answering that prayer for sometime now.

    The problem with the apostate gullible sheep is they trust men (Jer 17:5) and they are NOT being Bereans.

    They find some guy they “really like” but have NEVER observed their fruit because it’s nearly impossible.

    One has to spend much personal time with an individual to really observe their fruit. That’s not happening with all these alleged “Christian leaders”. Really when you think about it, somebody else could be writing all their material and nobody would know it. Unless you observe their fruit.

    Simply put, what we have discovered is that their actions aren’t lining up with what they are saying.

    I mean, how can Chuck Missler (who everyone says is doctrinal) be partnered with Tim LaHaye/Sun Myung Moon?

    If Chuck Missler is so “doctrinal”, how can he be connected to an antichrist through Tim LaHaye?

    Chuck Missler actually answered that question in the July 2012 “Personal Update” here is the article on that -

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/10/chuck-misslers-open-defiance-to-word-of.html

    Chuck Missler uses the excuse he doesn’t speak out because “he doesn’t know their hearts”, well neither did the Apostle Paul “know their hearts” when Paul was naming names.

    Theology & PhDs don’t replace obedience to The Word Of God.

    However, to the apostate gullible sheep, they do.

    True discernment starts with FEAR OF THE LORD.

    Malachi 3:16-18 – “Then they that FEARED THE LORD spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that FEARED THE LORD, and that thought upon His name.

    17 And they shall be Mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

    18 Then shall ye return, and DISCERN BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.”

    The church doesn’t need bogu$ di$cernment mini$trie$, just fear the Lord and obey The Word Of God by loving Jesus (John 14:15). The Holy Spirit comes through obedience (Acts 5:32).

    The Lord gives us the GRACE FOR OBEDIENCE -

    Romans 1:5 – “By whom WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE to the faith among all nations, for His name”

    The Lord has given us grace to LOVE HIM. Trust completely in His word, in Him to lead you in to ALL TRUTH. Complete trust.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks William.

    When you expose false teaching you are treading on their toes and they don’t like that because they are running a business at the end of the day, they are making money, selling books, cds/dvds, booking conferences all over. More followers = more money. When someone exposes their falsities they are damaging da business!

    But don’t worry Jacob Prasch, we are in the end times and a great apostasy, only a few will realise you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing, the rest will run after you wanting their ears tickled.

  • Marion

    Duane…type Chuck Missler in the search bar at the top of this site. You will have your answers. Then type in Nancy Missler…there you will find more answers.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Guys

    That was the last straw. I have now written a new article on my blog entitled “Are These The Words/Actions Of a True Man Of God?” on [removed]

    It is an article requesting the true church to stand up collectively against the unwarranted rants by Jacob.

    On the subject. Jacob said that I linked him to Lonnie Frisbess and Kathryn Kuhlman. No I didn’t!!! Where did he get that from?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> On the subject. Jacob said that I linked him to Lonnie Frisbess and Kathryn Kuhlman. No I didn’t!!! Where did he get that from?

    He makes up stuff as he goes along, just like he said that I said he is anti KJV – which is a load of nonsense.

    >> It is an article requesting the true church to stand up collectively against the unwarranted rants by Jacob.

    What about the rest of his false teaching that I keep listing over and over. His bad attitude is because of his false beliefs.

  • John Chingford

    Dear Debs

    One thing at a time lol

    My article links to your article. My readers can see for themselves regarding the things you wrote. At present I have little time to write articles, so have not got time to delve into it properly. You have done a fine job of that yourself. This is why (for the meanwhile) I have linked my article to yours.

    I was inspired to write my article because one of your readers said that they used to support Jacob, but after seeing that rant, they have realised they can no longer do so. Therefore, I thought that exposing the rant is really the first step to exposing all the other stuff.

  • 7 times Liar
    2 times Pathological Liar
    3 times Slanderer
    1 time Fraud
    1 time Narcissist
    1 time Charlatan
    7 times Demonic
    2 times Witch
    1 time Daughter of Jezebel
    1 time Ignoramus
    1 time Wicked Daughter of Darkness
    1 time Idiot
    1 time Stupid

    In Christ,

    Jacob Prasch
    Moriel

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jacob Prash

    >> Shre stupidly writes that if read from the begining 2 Thessalonians 2 is not about the rapture when Paul states absolutely in the first verse that it is about the ‘episunagoge’ our gathering to Jesus at His coming (at which point The Day of The Lord’ is inaugerated).

    If you pay attention Jacob, because it appears you only read the first few lines of the article, I state this: “What exactly is “the day of the Lord’”? The day of the Lord is The Tribulation made up of two parts; The Tribulation being first 3.5 years and the Great Tribulation being last 3.5 years, totaling 7 years from start to finish PLUS Jesus’ Second Coming and the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ!”

    You can call me all the names under the sun, the fact is you are wrong.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jacob Prash

    >> Shre stupidly writes that if read from the begining 2 Thessalonians 2 is not about the rapture when Paul states absolutely in the first verse that it is about the ‘episunagoge’ our gathering to Jesus at His coming (at which point The Day of The Lord’ is inaugerated). This is a very stupid woman indeed.

    Um Nope!. I never said that. You didn’t bother to read the rest of the article, just the first few sentences, or just scan through it. I said, “What exactly is “the day of the Lord’”? The day of the Lord is The Tribulation made up of two parts; The Tribulation being first 3.5 years and the Great Tribulation being last 3.5 years, totaling 7 years from start to finish PLUS Jesus’ Second Coming and the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ!”

    Call me all the names in the world, I’ll even turn the other cheek. You however are still wrong.

  • John Chingford

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    What about the rest of his false teaching that I keep listing over and over. His bad attitude is because of his false beliefs.

    One thing at a time dear Debs lol

    My article links to your article. My readers can see for themselves regarding the things you wrote. At present I have little time to write articles, so have not got time to delve into it properly. You have done a fine job of that yourself. This is why (for the meanwhile) I have linked my article to yours.
    I was inspired to write my article because one of your readers said that they used to support Jacob, but after seeing that rant, they have realised they can no longer do so. Therefore, I thought that exposing the rant is really the first step to exposing all the other stuff.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    Haha, ok, I’m on a roll here.

  • York

    Hi Deborah, York here
     
    Thanks for the reply to my blog. Do you have your own ministry ? Where are you based ? We should have more discussions about these issues, but we should do it in love.
     
    The bible does say that we should carry each other’s burdens. This is the fruit of the spirit. I know that Jacov Prasch can get personal at times, and I certainly don’t approve of the name calling, I mean personal insults. Jesus says whoever calls his brother a fool is danger of the hell fire. This is why I would never call anyone a fool directly.
     
    We can have our disagreements, but, in needs to be done in love and harmony. We are going to be held accountable for every idle word we speak.
     
    Are you on facebook ? 
     
    You see a lot of times allegations get thrown around which cannot really be proven because it’s just heresay. In a court of law you need evidence, not opinions. 
     
    I would disagree with you saying that a person can have all the answers. Are you God ? We are not meant to have all the answers. God will give us the answers that we need to the issues that are important for our lives and have direct affects on our salvation.
     
    We shouldn’t idolize any teacher, since we do not follow man, but Jesus.
     
    The problem is those who have a lot of knowledge because proud, sometimes spiritually proud.
     
    Then look at the fundamental aspects of the bible in the simplest possible way.
     
    1. There is going to be a son of perdition, who will exalt himself to the same level as God in Jerusalem.
    2. There “might” be a rapture, since scripture alludes to it, but we don’t know exactly when it will happen,”no one knows the time or the hour”. Anything else is just speculation.
    3. There are many true christians who believe in the Second Coming, but not the rapture, that doesn’t make them any less of a christian, and it certainly doesn’t condemn them to hell.
    4. If we try and shove fundamentalism down people’s throats, it will just lead to atheism.
    5. Hell is eternal, there is no escape, no annihilation, no mercy for the soul.
    6. It is safer to believe that we can lose our salvation, since that will keep us from deliberate sin. Let us strive to be only “surprised” by sin.
    7. We are living in a time where christians are calling evil good and good evil.
    8. A person does not need “Midrash” in order to be saved. They just need the plain gospel message.
    9. God is going to judge our motives, and our hearts, in fact He searches the hearts of christian around the world.
    10. Not all who say unto me ‘Lord,Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven. This is a serious warning to christians, that they should not live lukewarm lifestyles as did the church of Laodicea. There are also going to be “christians” who will claim to the Lord on judgement day that they cast out demons, healed the sick, fed the poor, yet they will be rejected, why is this ? Because they are following their own will instead of God’s will. I believe these are the ones who are connected to the word-faith prosperity preachers and other false “sects”.
     
    There are more fundamentals, but…I am going to bed now
     
    Keep safe in Jesus name
    Cheers
     

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    >> Thanks for the reply to my blog. Do you have your own ministry ? Where are you based ?

    That’s a first, someone claiming my blog to be theirs. – oh you mean “COMMENT”, not blog. This website is a blog, you post a comment only :)

    >> We should have more discussions about these issues, but we should do it in love.

    Who said we are not? You are making things up here.

    >> Are you on facebook ?

    No

    >> I know that Jacov Prasch can get personal at times, and I certainly don’t approve of the name calling, I mean personal insults.

    Ohhh so you know JP can get personal at times…but yet you still make excuses for him, shame on you.

    >> We can have our disagreements, but, in needs to be done in love and harmony.

    Why don’t talk to Jacob Prasch about that, not me.

    >> I would disagree with you saying that a person can have all the answers. Are you God ? We are not meant to have all the answers. God will give us the answers that we need to the issues that are important for our lives and have direct affects on our salvation.

    All the answers that God wants us to know pertaining to our lives here on earth is in the Bible, and this we can know! If we are not meant to have all the answers then we can be easily deceived.

    >> You see a lot of times allegations get thrown around which cannot really be proven because it’s just heresay. In a court of law you need evidence, not opinions.

    You sound like Jacob Prasch, did you speak on the phone before you came and commented? Hearsay??? Nonsense, they are FACTS. All those things I listed ARE FACTS. Quotes from his books, friends that JP says he is friends with, teachings that he adhered too. Facts, facts, facts.

    >> 6. It is safer to believe that we can lose our salvation, since that will keep us from deliberate sin. Let us strive to be only “surprised” by sin.

    Um, no, that “It is safer to believe that we can lose our salvation, since that will keep us from deliberate sin” is a load of toodles, and nothing but works as you try to stop sinning by your own strength.

    — I on the other hand am chastised by the Holy Spirit who helps me not to sin again. I want to live a Holy life because I love Jesus Christ more than any thing.

    —The Holy Spirit keeps me from sinning, where are your strange doctrine supposedly keep you from sinning.

  • Duane

    @ Marion:

    Thanks Marion

  • @ Michael:

    Direct quote from ” shaows of the Beast” page 16:
    “Most pre tribulationists are in many ways excellent preachers and authors. Among these brethrn are manyof my closest personal friends who seek to uphold biblical truth in an age of apostay when it is being eroded”.

    Does this sound like I me calling pre trib brethren “heretics” and “false prophets”? Read the book for yourself. The documented proven fact is that Deborah is a slanderer and a liar. And yes 2 Timothy 3:3 calls such people demonic in the original Greek text. If you are offended thatt the one lied against documents the liar to be a liar, you have a very serious problem.

    Likewise, I have no eumenical links and actively oppose ecumensm. I have never known Lonnie Frisbee or Kathryn Kuhlman and have warned about both. John Chingford ( not his real name) has in the pat lied against everyone from Bob Mitchell to Tony Pearce, so I suppose it just my turn.

    But please don’t blame me for telling you the truth about people who Told you lies. All I did was respond to lies and the proven liars who mislead you who told them. That is all. I dpeak of these people the wy Jess spoke of religious liars in Matthew 23.
    I am the victim of proven lies by a proven liar. Yes, be a good Christian, blame the victim. Pity the liar who deceived you. How discerning!

    God Bless,

    Jacob Prasch

    [Edited by DTW: 3/12/2012 - HERE IS A SCAN OF PAGES 20 and 21 of YOUR BOOKS JACOB where you call us false christ/prophets and say we are deceiving the Elect: JacobPrasch-ShadowsOfTheBeastQuotes-Pg20,pg21]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jacob Prasch

    >> Direct quote from ” shaows of the Beast” page 16:
    >>“Most pre tribulationists are in many ways excellent preachers and authors. Among these brethrn are manyof my closest personal friends who seek to uphold biblical truth in an age of apostay >>when it is being eroded”.
    >>Does this sound like I me calling pre trib brethren “heretics” and “false prophets”? Read the book for yourself. The documented proven fact is that Deborah is a slanderer and a liar. And yes >>2 Timothy 3:3 calls such people demonic in the original Greek text. If you are offended thatt the one lied against documents the liar to be a liar, you have a very serious problem.

    And then in the same breath you back track and say…

    Jesus Himself warned us of false Christs and false prophets in the Olivet Discourse, yet just as Preterists falsely teach it not longer applies to Christians because it has all (instead of partially) transpired in the events surrounding A.D. 70, Pre-Tribulationsists are left agreeing with them that it does not apply to us because we have already been raptured before the Antichrist and False Prophet become and issue.” [Emphasis added] —Shadows of the Beast, Jacob Prasch, pg. 20]

    So here you calls us false Christ / false Prophets.

    “The rapture and resurrection cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation Chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth with must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect [Emphasis added] —Shadows of the Beast, Jacob Prasch, pg. 21]

    Therefore you are saying we are not the Elect, we are false Christians deceiving the Elect.

    false Christ/false Prophet and deceiving the Elect = Heretics

    [Edited by DTW: 3/12/2012 - HERE IS A SCAN OF PAGES 20 and 21: JacobPrasch-ShadowsOfTheBeastQuotes-Pg20,pg21]

    You speak from TWO MINDS Jacob! You bless and curse at the same time. Comprende?

    >> Likewise, I have no eumenical links and actively oppose ecumensm. I have never known Lonnie Frisbee or Kathryn Kuhlman and have warned about both. John Chingford ( not his real name) has in the pat lied against everyone from Bob Mitchell to Tony Pearce, so I suppose it just my turn.

    No one has linked you to Kathryn Kullman or Lonnie Frisbee, only CHUCK MISSLER AND CHUCK SMITH – Comprende?

    You do have ecumenical ties – to Jews for Jesus! which you will only be leaving at the beginning of 2013, why not sooner the Lord alone only knows. You KNOW they are ecumenical but you stay tied to them, because you say they “They have good material for witnessing to Jews as resource material” Jews for Jesus says you can be a Catholic and be Christian, then send people off to Catholic churches to find ‘Jesus’ and you say they have ‘good material for witnessing to Jews’. Another thing to Comprende?

    >> John Chingford ( not his real name) has in the pat lied against everyone from Bob Mitchell to Tony Pearce, so I suppose it just my turn.

    Um… does everyone lie about you when they point out the FACTS. LOL, you are really amazing you know that.

    >> All I did was respond to lies and the proven liars who mislead you who told them. That is all. I dpeak of these people the wy Jess spoke of religious liars in Matthew 23.
    I am the victim of proven lies by a proven liar. Yes, be a good Christian, blame the victim. Pity the liar who deceived you. How discerning!

    You say I said you are anti KJV, I never said thatYOU are not telling the truth, find the place where I said this and I will give you a million Zimbabwian dollars, if someone told you this, they are NOT telling you the truth.

    >>You have no right to speak to us as Jesus spoke to the religious liars in Mathew 23 because we are NOT Pharisees.

    All we have done is POINT OUT THE BLATANT FACTS.

    Oh, I wanted to tell you here are a list of suggestions for other nasty words you can add to you dictionary to call people.

    Prevaricator, beguiler, cheater, deceiver, trickster, slicker, cheat, false witness, fibber, storyteller, perjurer.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jacob Prasch

    I am getting tired of this…
    John sent me this email that you sent him because he did not know how to respond you your terrible nastiness.
    I posted this email without John’s knowledge just in case you try blame him for something else.

    ————
    From: Jacob Prasch
    To: John Chingford
    Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2012, 20:05
    Subject: NO EUPHEMISM FOR A LIAR

    Dear Liar,

    Your lying friend Deborah claimed in the public domain that I stated in the book “Shadows of The Beast” that pre trib believers asre heretics. This is a demonstable lie.
    It is a documented fact that I never wrote anjy such thing. Yet she persuaded several others to believe it to be true. This is slander of the kind 2 Tim. 3 calls ‘demonic’.
    Yet, You call such lying ‘fairly argued’. because you are nothing more than a liar yourself Mr Chingford. Show me where I called pre trib berlieverrts heretics; rather I pay tribute to them in that book.
    No a lie cannot be fairly argued except in the perverted mind of a perverted liar like yourself Mt. Chingford.

    Neither have I ever attacked the KJV as a translation I hate as she additionally lies that I have. I call it a valid translation in ‘The Plastic Bible’. Again, she lied, and so do you.

    You totally avoid the issue that I have been the victim of a series of utterly false and malicious statements and only responded to categorical liars told by proven loars such as your lying self.

    You have a perverse mind Mr. Chingford. Trying to link me with people I always warned of such as Lonnie Frisbee whom Chuck Smith threw out of Calvary Chapel over 30 years ago.
    Your hideous website remarks someone sent me proves that you have a poison spirit and a badly diseased soul.

    You additionally say I have began to teach hetresey (without saying what I have ever taught is heretical). Once again, you are a liar Mr. Chingford; a low ranking volunteer soldier in Satan’s army.

    I could declare cyber war on you in retribution but I shall not. Our website and BE ALERT only contains things worth the while and you have no value except in the service of your father the devil.

    The Lord however most certainly shall deal with you, I am quite assured. Vengeance is His and He will have it. He is sometimes slow, but never late !

    Jacob Prasch
    ————

    [Edited by DTW: 3/12/2012 - Here is a SCAN COPY OF PAGES 20 and 21 where Jacob Prasch calls us false Christ's/false prophets, deceving the Elect with a dangerous doctrine: JacobPrasch-ShadowsOfTheBeastQuotes-Pg20,pg21] THIS IS YOUR BOOK, THAT YOU WROTE.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jacob Prasch

    I am getting tired of this…I received an email which contained some terrible comments made by you, which were.

    Repeat, maybe it will sink in:

    I’ve have not lied, only presented FACTS.

    I have no where said you are anti KJV – this is something you have made up and are harping on it for dear life using it as a smoke screen to try and cover up ALL THE OTHER ISSUES

    John Chinford has never linked you to Lonnie Frisbee – (I am sorry but I have to laugh every time I read you say this) because NO WHERE, and I MEAN NO WHERE have we said this.
    —> WE HAVE however linked you to CHUCK MISSLER AND CHUCK SMITH whom you willingly acknowledge and can’t see any problem with. < ---

    You call Pre-Tribulationists FALSE CHRISTS/FALSE PROPHETS and DECEIVERS OF THE ELECT this means you are calling us HERETICS = a dissenter from established religious teaching.

      “Jesus Himself warned us of false Christs and false prophets in the Olivet Discourse, yet just as Preterists falsely teach it not longer applies to Christians because it has all (instead of partially) transpired in the events surrounding A.D. 70, Pre-Tribulationsists are left agreeing with them that it does not apply to us because we have already been raptured before the Antichrist and False Prophet become and issue.” —Shadows of the Beast, Jacob Prasch, pg. 20]

        “The rapture and resurrection cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation Chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth with must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect —Shadows of the Beast, Jacob Prasch, pg. 21]

      [Edited by DTW: 3/12/2012 - HERE IS A SCAN OF PAGES 20 and 21: JacobPrasch-ShadowsOfTheBeastQuotes-Pg20,pg21]

      Again thank you for calling John and I those terrible names. Do you have an ‘Nasty Name Generator’ that you are using? Because seriously I am impressed, “a low ranking volunteer soldier in Satan’s army.” Really? How do you come up with them.

  • [deleted by DTW because I am getting a bit tired of reading your ugly ugly words - FACTS ARE FACTS - trying to twist things to make them seem like I am a liar is not going to work for THOSE who are willing to listen to the Holy Spirit WARNING them about YOU AND YOUR MINISTRY. Facts are facts and they ain't goin' away. ]

  • [Edited: Comment moved from here: Joyce Meyer – Shocking False Teachings and Quotes ]

    Joyce Meyer on American TV concerning her favourite subject of fund raising stated that in the original biblical languages the text teaches that if you give money to The Lord ( her “ministry”) God gives you a receipt so when you want something you go o God with your receipt and He is obligated to pay up.

    This is blasphemy. God is no man’s debtor and the earth is His and all it contains. If God owed anyone anything He would not be God. We owe Him, He does not owe us.

    In fact the Hebrew term for receipt is ‘Caballah’ from where we get the term for the occult practice of mystical Judaism. In Greek, we have two words .
    The first is found in John’s passion narrative and it is ‘Telostsiai’ meaning paid in full. It was the kegal term in a stamped bill of goods whose account had been settled. When Jesus died in our place the penalty for our sin was paid in full. The other is gound in epistles and it us ‘Arabanon’, usually translated into English as pledge or ernest. The Holy Spirit is our receipt/ or Arabanon. When Jesus comes He sees who has the receiot ir Arabanon, that is His Spirit whose sins are ‘telostai’ by His own blood and He picks up the parcel as it were; this is the episunagoge of Thessalonians that is the rapture when we meet the resurrected saints in the air.

    None of these Greek or Hebrew terms has anything to do with money. Joyce Meyer and Deborah are two of a kind – proven and documented religious liars.

    —[DTW note: Jacob Prasch, Chuck Smith, Chuck Missler = 3 peas in a pod - proven and documented false teachers.
    Funny, you make money selling the gospel Jacob, not I, you are like a little version of Joyce Meyer. You should compare business plans one day, I am sure she can give you a few pointers on what next to release on DVD that will make big bucks!]

    Jacob Prasch

  • Redeemed

    I find #177 confusing. Deborah has exposed Joyce Meyer as a false teacher. Does Mr. Prasch believe she lied about Joyce Meyer?

    Obviously he is not pleased about comments concerning his ministry, but what has this got to do with Joyce Meyer? Surely he would agree with the article about Joyce Meyer.

    Also, Deborah does not solicit funds or have any materials for sale. This seems so irrelevant.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Redeemed

    I think Jacob has lost it, quite frankly. He will make up anything to trash my name, hence the Joyce Meyer comparison. No validity in his statement, but he will say it anyhow.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    [Edited: Comment moved from here: When will the Rapture Happen?]

    Mr Prasch,

    Firstly I would appreciate it if you would spell my name correctly, if you are going to mention me in one of your rants. It is MYFANWY NOT MAWANY.. thanks.

    Secondly, you really do need to get someone to edit your ‘comments’. For such an educated man your spelling is atrocious! This makes it hard going to read what you say.

    Thirdly, I am totally disgusted with your name calling, and perhaps if you could take a breath and seek the Lord’s guidance instead of just acting like a bull in chase mode, you might realise that Debs,John, and others, all have relevant questions and concerns.

    Lastly, as I said before, I am not getting into the specific details of what is being discussed, as I do not feel that this is my battle,one, and two, there are plenty of comments being posted that prove you to be a man without sound judgement or Godly wisdom.

    Jacob, you seem willing to drag your name and your ministry’s name through this ‘mud’ to justify yourself (your pride). Would it not be easier and much more astute (having or showing shrewdness and discernment, especially with respect to one’s own concerns) of you to be reasonable towards those that question you? What possible gain will you have for yourself or in fact, far more importantly, the Lord, by sending venomous emails and posting these awful, rude comments? I will sincerely pray for you Jacob, I will ask the Lord to soften your heart and open your spiritual eyes so that you can be a true ambassador for Christ. I might not be a great leader, bible scholar or a person of any significance, but I do know that God hears my prayers and answers them. Humility and prayer are a powerful combination. Profuse words and pride are a killer.

  • John Chingford

    Mr Prasch

    On my blog you left a comment which included:

    “My tone in addressing religious liars who deceive people by the power of demons is no different from how Jesus responded to such liars in Matrthew 23.”

    Wow, that sounds very much like a blasphemous comment to make. I will explain why in two parts.

    Firstly you are blackening the very nature of Jesus and secondly you are putting yourself on the same level as Him, giving yourself the right to do/say the things that only Jesus has the right to say or do.

    I will now address this in more detail

    First: why does it blacken the nature of Jesus?

    Only ONCE in the NT (as far as I can recall) did Jesus ever call anyone the son of satan. In addressing the religious leaders he said “you are of your father the devil”. THIS WAS AN EXCEPTION. He also said “woe to you scribes and pharisees”. Was that an insult or a warning? It was a warning (because the word indicates a warning) that if they did not repent something terrible would happen. Jesus NEVER reacted out of temper tantrums. His words (even in anger) were ALWAYS full of compassion and love.

    After Jesus said “woe to you” He ended by showing his compassion by saying “how often I would have gathered you together as a hen gathers her chicks but you would not”.

    Other times Jesus said some hard things, as did the apostle Paul “you brood of vipers”. Was that an insult? No, again He was showing that the pharisees were poisonous in the things they spoke and was calling them to repent – not out of hate but out of real love, mercy and compassion.

    Second:
    Jacob, you are actually putting yourself up on a pedestal on the same level as Jesus.

    Do you think you have the right to judge the heart and mind of individuals? We only have the right to judge the words spoken whether they are true or false.

    ONLY JESUS knows what is in a man. Only He knows the condition and intentions of our heart. Only He knows what we are thinking. Therefore, you have absolutely no right to call people sons or daughters of satan. Whilst Jesus rarely said such things, you are frequently using such words.

    You do not know my heart. Only Jesus does!

    However, Jesus did say

    “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks”.

    I cannot and do not have the right to judge your heart Jacob, but I can see that there is something wrong because of the words you speak.

    You may say that the apostle Paul said some harsh things. Let me ask you Jacob, were you around at the time of Jesus to be an eye witness of Jesus’s life, death and resurrection? Only those who were entrusted to start the church were given apostolic rights. However, even then, they acted mostly with REAL love, mercy and compassion. It was only when the church and the new covenant of grace were being endangered that they spoke out, but it was filled with a much more tender attitude than you are showing.

    Quite honestly, as a leader do you measure up to the instructions given to Timothy regarding what a leader looks like?

    Regarding Jesus. He is the Son of God, the alpha and the Omega, from everlasting to everlasting, is perfect, is Lord of Heaven and Earth etc etc to infinite.

    He has a GOD given right to judge us. Only He searches our hearts, Only He knows the right measure to use, i.e judgement mixed with GREAT compassion, mercy etc etc.

    Please come off your pedestal and start showing humilty, brokenness showing compassion and mercy and leave those things which belong to God to HIM. Please get back to exposing false teachers and cease with your ungodly, unloving, hateful insults.

  • Colin Ford

    All this is very, very sad. I have been following this thread, I comment very little on this site because I don’t hold to Dispensational views. I have been called a Calvinist here (not that I mind!) although I have never introduced myself to anybody with that label; I am a blood bought believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Jacob Prasch is his own man, and he alone will be accountable to his maker for everything he has ever said and done (Hebrews 4.13).I have said before that I have learnt much from his teachings, however I certainly don’t condone his speech on this blog.
    Myfanwy, I believe that Jacob meant MANY! If you look at your keyboard you will see the proximity of the ‘A’ to the ‘W’, it may well be that he pressed the two keys together at the same time!!
    You are probably sensitive to the miss spelling of your name because of what went before on this very site.

    Let me quote from a great servant of God from times gone by..

    ‘Would we know whether we are really converted? Would we know the test by which we must try ourselves? The surest mark of true conversion is humility. If we have really received the Holy Ghost, we shall show it by a meek and childlike spirit.’

    J.C.Ryle 1856

  • Marion

    Distraction…it’s an evasive maneuver. Too bad Jacob thinks anyone here will fall for that. BUT, desperate men do desperate things!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Micheline

    No I would not read Andrew Murray, I have my suspicions about him: Healing and Revival

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marion

    Distraction, is exactly what he is trying to do… you are absolutely right.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Colin

    Yes it is very very sad.

    Just a note: J.C. Ryle is a Calvinist and held the view of Election.

    Just saying ;)

  • Redeemed

    Colin, thank you for commenting despite your differing views. It goes to show that the way we treat each other as believers goes beyond any differences we may have. Harsh language and name-calling is never a fruit of the Holy Spirit. I agree that it is most sad to see such trash-talking coming from the leader of a Christian ministry. I hope you took notice that it was not returned in kind.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Colin, I did not mistake what Jacob said, he was referring to ‘Redeemed’ and myself.. quote: Redeemed and the Mawany etc. who believe her on face value without examining the facts themselves which prove she lied are in violation of… I am not sensitive due to what happened before with Joe. Joe was being deliberately nasty. I am just informing Jacob that he should spell people’s names correctly if he is going to bring them into a comment he makes. I would expect the same from anyone.

    I agree Colin, Jacob will be accountable to the Lord as we all will. My personal belief is that he has heaped coals on his head by being so rude and arrogant. I am sure he would have received a different reaction had he chosen to answer the questions he was asked, in a reasonable, peaceful manner. I knew John long before I knew Debs, and John used to speak very well of Jacob, but there came a time when John told me he was concerned about things Jacob was teaching etc. I have never studied Jacob’s teaching and I have said on here that this is not my battle.

    I can understand that Jacob might be finding it hard to have his books criticised, and indeed his beliefs too. Maybe there were things said that had not been properly verified, and he was linked to people he should not have been linked to. He first sent his friend Chris to answer on his behalf, which would have been fine had the message been considered and polite. Then Jacob sent a series of vitriolic emails, calling Debs and John, all manner of disgusting names. If he had just stuck to the subject and given truthful answers, he would not have been so badly received.

    Jacob and others put themselves ‘up’ as ministers and teachers,supposedly examples of Jesus love and humility. They are supposed to stand for the truth of the Word. They should expect, and in fact, demand, that we find them accountable and that we ask questions about what they teach. They should react with peace, mercy, love and humility.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Myfanwy

    Just to clarify…

    >> Maybe there were things said that had not been properly verified

    Correct, the Lausanne thing was not properly verified because John tried to verify it numerous times and JP refused to reply via email, so one is left dangling in mid air wondering what is the deal. So we put 2 and 2 together and got 4, unfortunately the number 4 was no longer a valid number and JP went postal on us. Moriel is no longer affiliated to Luasanne. John apologized for thinking they were still involved – I retracted the Lausanne thing as well and stated in the comment that JP has been vindicated.

    but…this…

    >> and he was linked to people he should not have been linked to.

    Um, nope, no one has linked him to Lonnie Frisbee or Kathryn Kuhlman or anyone else falsely – Jacob Prasch made that up (as a diversion), we do however link him to Chuck Missler (who JP stated he works with him on a not so regular basis – but still works with him) and Chuck Smith (a close personal friend) – these men are bonifide False teachers.

  • York

    Hi Deborah

    I was wondering, can we not meet in person so that we can have a civilized conversation ?
    Also, you shouldn’t be suspicious of Andrew Murray, he was a man of God, I have some of his books. I am sure he is in heaven now.

    Keep safe in Jesus name
    Cheers

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Debs, that is why I said ‘maybe’ at the beginning of the sentence because I was not sure what had been said exactly regarding Jacob’s contacts.. I have read through some of the commentaries, but not all, so I stand to be corrected. My point really is that Jacob should not have responded as he did to you and John. He could have corrected you about Lausanne without being nasty.

  • Fact Checker

    First off…. Anyone can post on these forums. I’m not saying that Jacob isn’t the one posting here, I’m just saying that there’s no hard evidence that it’s him. I could easily post like I’m Jacob, Roger Oakland, Chuck Smith, or Chuck Missler. These all need to be verified, otherwise it’s just hearsay. Is there a way to verify that these people are who they say they are?

    In Christ.

  • Roger Oakland

    See, anyone can post as anyone on here, and it can be made more convincing if you actually know the email address of the person you want to defame.

    God Bless

  • Fact Checker

    Just wanted to point out that anyone can pose as anyone on here. It may or may not be Jacob Prasch commenting on this forum, but this is the internet people. We need to double check things before responding.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    You can have a civilized conversation on here. I do not meet people. If you continue to request to meet me I will block you from commenting on this website.

    I DO have suspicions of Andrew Murray because of all the chaos that went on in his churches that he accepted as being from God, people falling over, laying unconscious on the floor, etc.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fact Checker

    >> First off…. Anyone can post on these forums. I’m not saying that Jacob isn’t the one posting here, I’m just saying that there’s no hard evidence that it’s him

    Yes that thought did cross my mind for a whole night and a whole morning, I pondered, could it be someone else.

    But then someone received more and one email from Jacob Prasch’s email address sent by Jacob Prasch, matching the same email he used on this blog - with the same tone, language and insults as on this blog.

    So definitely it is him 100%.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    FAKE Roger Oakland / Fact Checker

    If it was you I would contact you and ask you if it was you (Roger Oakland). We were in contact with Jacob Prasch at the time he was commenting on the blog.

    We also have emails from Jacob Prasch that match the blog right down to: email address, tone, wording, spelling errors, etc etc.

    It would be impossible for the ‘impostor’ to actually email from Jacob Prasch’s email address..

    Unfortunately what we have here is the real deal.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Myfanwy

    Noo problem!

  • Andy

    “Fact Checker” — I have heard Prasch say such things with my own ears, so has my Jewish believer wife. We were turned off by it. He also says such kinds of ungodly derogatory things in several articles on his own website.

    So maybe we didn’t actually see Prasch, maybe it was his doppelganger? And maybe Moriel is not actually Prasch’s website. Maybe Prasch doesn’t exist at all!

    That’s how silly your line of reasoning is.

    It is him. What he has said in person and on his website, he repeated here. He gets into internet arguments frequently.

  • Hey Debs,

    I have Roger Oakland’s email address if you want to contact him.

    There was something that Jacob said that told me it was Jacob (or Roger), I didn’t have to know the email address.

    It was very specific information.

    Cursory research on the name calling by Jacob Prasch yields a lot. Whether that was Jacob or not, it still needs to be addressed. However, I knew it was either Jacob or Roger because of the specific information.

    Also, I just posted the first part of two articles on Jacob Prasch -

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-lack-of-discernment-in-jacob-prasch.html

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    William

    Yeessss, you are absolutely right, that thing he mentioned to you. Only Jacob Prasch could have known about that.

    No need to email Roger, we are 101% sure it’s Jacob Prasch based on the IP address that showed up and Prasch’s current whereabouts in the UK.

    We have done our due diligence from our side in checking email addresses, IP address compared to his Itinerary, things that were said, how they were said, etc etc, and it’s ALL a match.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    YORK you are starting to look like a stalker.. and a very strange person indeed.

    It seems there are a few ‘dodgy’ things going on here, people posting comments that are designed to cause confusion. No worries Debs, we know you and we know the truth (most importantly.)

    Debs I read some Andrew Murray books years ago, I would now not recommend them either.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> So maybe we didn’t actually see Prasch, maybe it was his doppelganger? And maybe Moriel is not actually Prasch’s website. Maybe Prasch doesn’t exist at all!

    L.O.L

  • Myfanwy Brown

    I have my suspicions that Debs is my imaginative friend… : ) gotta laugh!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Myfanwy

    >> I have my suspicions that Debs is my imaginative friend… : ) gotta laugh!!

    I’ve had some suspicions about myself as well hahaha

  • York

    [deleted - I told you, if you continue to request to meet me I will delete your comments. I have every right, under the circumstances NOT TO MEET YOU, or anyone for that matter. You say you are a Christian, I do know what who you are. And based on the lies coming out of Moriel Ministries I am even less inclined to trust anyone who agrees with them.
    It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that police authorities warn you not to just readily meet people from the internet - I might look stupid to you, but I am not York. If you go back and look at everyone who has constantly requested to meet me on this blog, it has always been under duress where I have exposed someone and the fans come out the woodwork insisting on meeting me because they have something to tell me in person that they can't do in writing on this blog. They want my address, they want this, they want that. NO. Get it? And mostly importantly, my husband says to you, "Not in this life time, will you meet her". And I agree with him.]

  • York

    @ York:

    No, I am talking about my comment about false teachers, I made a list of them. I never said I agree with everything that Jacob Prasch says, but I take offense to your judgement of Andrew Murray, as well as one of your bloggers calling me a stalker.

    If you a strong christian, then you shouldn’t be afraid to at least say which church you fellowship with.

    My mom is also shocked at your comments about Andrew Murray.

    Keep safe in Jesus name
    Cheers

  • York

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):

    Can you show me the evidence of this, please. What does this have to do with the face that he was a great man of God ?

    Cheers

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    >> “but I take offense to your judgement of Andrew Murray”……”My mom is also shocked at your comments about Andrew Murray.”

    Truth hurts unfortunately. If you can’t see that the chaos the went on in his church was NOT of God… and he accepted it, people falling over, slain in the spirit, then honestly, that is your problem, something you need to deal with. Why are you following the words of MEN anyhow, why are you not relying on your BIBLE alone.

    >> but I take offense to ….as well as one of your bloggers calling me a stalker..

    When someone says NO, then and you persist in asking, it comes across as being ‘stalkerish’. Stop being so sensitive.

    >> If you a strong christian, then you shouldn’t be afraid to at least say which church you fellowship with.

    How do you know I do not fellowship with people? You did not ask. Good grief. And No, I am still not going to tell you – I am certainly NOT going to tell you where I go too, the house address.

    I’m getting tired of this. Ask one more time and I will block you from commenting for sure, ok?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    This topic is about Jacob Prasch. You go and do your own research on the matter. Use Google.

  • York

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):

    If you are going to judge Andrew Murray, then realize that God is going to judge you according to the same standard. You are slandering a name of a person that has done far more for the kingdom of God then you ever will. Like I said before, if you want to point fingers, then point it to the ones that are obviously false, like TD Jakes, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Paula White, Juanita Bynum, Oral Roberts, Rodney Howard Browne, Joseph Prince. These people are in danger of the hell if they don’t repent !

    Cheers

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    Understand one thing. I do not judge anyone only God can do that. But I have every right to QUESTION/DISCERN/JUDGE the words and actions of anyone that is contrary to the Word of God. Do you understand? Just as you are questioning those people you list, I question Andrew Murray. If you don’t want to go and research as to why I say he was not kosher, then don’t, no one is forcing you to search for the truth.

  • Myfanwy Brown

    YORK,

    Please read my comment again, I said, quote: you are starting to look like a stalker. I apologise if my comment offended you, but it offends me when someone keeps hassling a friend of mine.

  • York

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):

    Ok but do you at least agree that those people that I mentioned on the list are false ?
    They are still alive and are a far more serious threat to the church than anyone else.
    I actually forgot to include the “grand daddy” of all false prophets, Benny Hynn

    Anyway, I appreciate your efforts on this site. We need more sites like this.

    Love in Jesus name
    Cheers

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    >> Ok but do you at least agree that those people that I mentioned on the list are false ?

    Yes

    >> They are still alive and are a far more serious threat to the church than anyone else.

    Anyone alive or dead that preaches/preached a doctrine that is not 100% true is a threat.

  • York

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):

    The other aspect to this of course is this :

    When a person “follows” a certain teacher, they might only get the 95% truth part, but luckily escape the 5% poison. This doesn’t justify it though, just saying that christians can still learn a lot from those that are suspect. For example many people have been brought to Christ by Billy Graham. It’s only NOW that he has become liberal, accepting the roman catholic church etc. But if you look at the substance of what he preached ( I have videos ), there is nothing biblically unsound about it at all.

    There are many good teachers out there who are calvinists, and it DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HELL.

    You get good calvinists with good hearts and bad calvinists who are suspicious. The same goes for arminians.

    At the end of day, every single one of us are going to be held individually responsible for ANYTHING unbiblical that we say about the nature of the Father, Holy Spirit, Jesus, gifts, blessings, prosperity etc.

    Also, we CANNOT condemn all roman catholics to hell, since there are many catholics with good hearts.

    Keep safe in Jesus name
    Cheers

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    >>When a person “follows” a certain teacher, they might only get the 95% truth part, but luckily escape the 5% poison. This doesn’t justify it though, just saying that christians can still learn a lot from those that are suspect. For example many people have been brought to Christ by Billy Graham. It’s only NOW that he has become liberal, accepting the roman catholic church etc. But if you look at the substance of what he preached ( I have videos ), there is nothing biblically unsound about it at all.

    There are many good teachers out there who are calvinists, and it DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HELL.

    You get good calvinists with good hearts and bad calvinists who are suspicious. The same goes for arminians.

    At the end of day, every single one of us are going to be held individually responsible for ANYTHING unbiblical that we say about the nature of the Father, Holy Spirit, Jesus, gifts, blessings, prosperity etc.

    Also, we CANNOT condemn all roman catholics to hell, since there are many catholics with good hearts

    Oh really? So according to you if the person is ‘good’ and has a good heart, it does not matter that they follow PAGAN religions and believe in a false Christ. Tell me, please go and find scripture to back up you claim where Jesus or anyone in the bible says that your ‘good heart’ supersedes sound doctrine.

  • Andy

    It is not judging to discern a person teaching false doctrine. I’m so tired of the “judge not!” call. It’s unbiblical to say a person is “judging” when they discern someone teaching false teachings. The false teachers are always exposed in Scripture. Discernment of false teaching is not “judging”.

  • Robbie

    York

    Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    repeat….”Jesus did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance”.

    If you think that Jesus saves pretty good, basically moral, church-going people, you do not understand the heart of the gospel. If you think that someday when you stand before God, He will let you into heaven because you’ve tried to do your best, you’ve been regular in attending church, you’ve given money to the church, you’ve never intentionally hurt anyone, then you’re in for a rude awakening.

    Jesus’ words here should jolt you into rethinking your understanding of the Christian faith.

  • York

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):

    Ok so are you saying that ALL roman catholics are going to hell, and the fact that some of them have a relationship with the true Christ doesn’t count for anything. I am NOT making excuses for the roman catholic church, or the doctrine, or the practises. I am talking about placing a broad umbrella over them and saying that they are all damned.

    If you condemn others based on their doctrine, then you’d better hope that your doctrine is 100% perfect when you stand before God, else He is going to say there are holes in it just like in the doctrines of the ones you pointed fingers at.

    This is what makes this whole situation so frightening. “With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you”

    I say again, There are many good teachers out there who are calvinists, and it DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HELL.

    You get good calvinists with good hearts and bad calvinists who are suspicious. The same goes for arminians.

    At the end of day, every single one of us are going to be held individually responsible for ANYTHING unbiblical that we say about the nature of the Father, Holy Spirit, Jesus, gifts, blessings, prosperity etc.

    You know what would be nice…..if somebody on this site could make a list of all the “prerequisite” doctrines that a christian MUST believe in order to be assured of salvation.

    Also, an exact list of things, which, if NOT done regularly, can cause loss of salvation.
    Then everyone can have a blueprint as to what to believe and what to do.

    Keep safe in Jesus name
    Cheers

  • Redeemed

    York: You said:

    Also, we CANNOT condemn all roman catholics to hell, since there are many catholics with good hearts.

    Please find a verse in the Bible where it states that anyone is saved because they have a “good heart”.

    Yes, there are no doubtedly many good Roman Catholics who sincerely believe in the false Christ of the Eucharistic Mass and believe that they are saved by the graces of the Roman Catholic belief system and are saved because they were baptized as infants, but that does not make it truth. They are believing in a FALSE GOSPEL. FALSE GOSPELS do not save anyone. The Bible says there is a way that seems right to a man, but the way thereof leads to destruction. Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25

    Many people sincerely believe in false religions, but they are sincerely wrong. And no one is condemning Roman Catholics to hell. No human has the right to do that. Only God who sets down the conditions for salvation. Roman Catholics may think they believe in Christ, but it is a counterfeit Christ that is not in the Bible.

    Do you see this York? I hope so becsuse if you have the opportunity to share the true gospel with a Roman Catholic and you fail to do so, YOU are the one who is condemning them to hell because you have withheld the truth from them and allowed them to continue to believe they are on the right path.

  • John Chingford

    Hi York

    You said that Billy Graham used to preach sound doctrine. Is that actually true?

    The truth is that he has always been in the business of encouraging some converts (at his rallies) to go back to their Catholic church. In the 1960′s there is a video where he said he believed in life on other planets and extolled the virtues of “Jesus Christ Superstar” and “Godspell” which are complete blasphemies and destruction of gospel truth. Regarding those films, someone posted this video on COMMENT NO.6 http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/11/13/when-will-the-rapture-happen/#comment-227185. where he discusses his endorsement of those films.

    Regarding his belief in Aliens look at the video on my site on this link: [removed]
    Specifically look at this part: “I post all the links which give the conclusive proof. The first during the early days of his ministry (please go to the end of this first tape) has Billy (his own lips) saying he believes in beings on other planets????? This surely should have alerted us when he first said this that something was not right with Billy.”

    At 5:17s he says, “Now I personally hold the view that there are beings on other planets, but I believe this is the only planet in rebellion against God.”>

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    I asked you for scripture to back up your claim York, where is it?

    >> Ok so are you saying that ALL roman catholics are going to hell,

    I do not say they are going to hell. I have no right to say who goes where. But the doctrine they follow, the words that people preach that are contrary to the Word of God will be their judge.

    Matthew 12:36-37
    36 I tell you that on the day of judgment, people will give an account for every worthless word they speak.
    37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    >> and the fact that some of them have a relationship with the true Christ doesn’t count for anything

    How is this possible? How can a Roman Catholic have a relationship with Jesus Christ of the Bible when the ‘Jesus’ of the Roman Catholic Church is actually HORUS, and Mary (whom they pray too) is actually an incarnation of ISIS, and their GOD is actually OSIRIS. Do you not get it that the Catholic church is a PAGAN RELIGION disguised as Christianity?

    You contradicted yourself earlier in another comment when you spoke about Billy Graham you say… “For example many people have been brought to Christ by Billy Graham. It’s only NOW that he has become liberal, accepting the roman catholic church etc”

    Here you say Billy Graham was once ok, UNTIL he accepted the teachings of the Catholic Church. YORK, make up your mind will you. IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CHRISTIAN OR IS IT NOT? You can’t have it both ways. The fact is the Catholic church is NOT Christian and if a Catholic were to become born again they will LEAVE THE CATHOLIC church immediately. As the Bible says, Revelation 18:4 “Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, so you will not take part in her sins and so you will not receive her plagues” This pertains to the Roman Catholic church, and this includes moderate Catholics and Pentecostal type Catholics.

    >> If you condemn others based on their doctrine, then you’d better hope that your doctrine is 100% perfect when you stand before God, else He is going to say there are holes in it just like in the doctrines of the ones you pointed fingers at.

    When you are born again York the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you and HE promises to lead you into ALL TRUTH, not some truth or 95% truth, but 100% truth. Do you think the Holy Spirit is a liar?

    John 16:13
    13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come.

    If you do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in you then you will not speak all truth, you will speak a mixture of truth and lies. And this is evident of ALL false teachers including all FALSE religions. Roman Catholicism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Seven Day Adventists, CALVINISM, Arminians, Methodists, etc, Word of Faith Metaphysical Teachings, Latter Rain – New Apostolic Reformation false Christianity, etc. The list of false religions claiming to be Christian is astounding.

    >> This is what makes this whole situation so frightening. “With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you”

    Yes, thank Goodness because I am born again and the Holy Spirit abides in me and I am confident that I preach the gospel because IT MATCHES THE BIBLE and I do not deviate from SCRIPTURE. And if I make a mistake I am the first one to repent and fix my mistake very quickly. People have seen this on my website where I have mis-read something and I was called out on it and I apologized and mixed my mistake. But ultimately these mistakes are little things. Not gross error.

    >> I say again, There are many good teachers out there who are Calvinists, and it DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HELL.

    Wrong, the false doctrine they preach is what CONDEMNS THEM, I do not condemn them York, see verse above. Calvinism is a deadly doctrine in that it preaches the truth 95% of the way until you get to the message of SALVATION. Here Calvinists instead of teaching that Jesus died for the whole world, they blasphemously teach that Jesus only died for the ELECT. They believe that God before the creation of the world (or whenever), select some to be saved and the rest to go to hell. And how to you know if you were CHOSEN by God, well my goodness, if you believe in their twisted gospel of PREDESTINATION then you must be CHOSEN. If you don’t believe in PREDESTINATION then you are a REGENERATE and EVIL, the one that God must have chosen to go to hell. They do not believe in salvation, they believe in SELECTION. As a genuine Christian you are born again SAVED BY GRACE, CALVINIST are ELECT by their own PRIDE. < -- This YORK is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ and NO ONE can get genuinely saved in the CULT of Calvinism.

    >> You know what would be nice…..if somebody on this site could make a list of all the “prerequisite” doctrines that a christian MUST believe in order to be assured of salvation.

    Read this York, let the Holy Spirit be your guide. 09 – How to Become a Child of God

    >> Also, an exact list of things, which, if NOT done regularly, can cause loss of salvation.

    If you are genuinely saved you can’t lose your salvation York, God promises to seal you until the end.

    Ephesians 1:13-14
    13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    You know if you are genuinely saved or not, you know what is going on in your life. You know if there is confusion in your mind regarding what the BIBLE SAYS. I can’t give you a list or rules to follow, only your total surrender to Jesus Christ will bring you genuine salvation and will allow you to understand everything that is happening, as the Holy Spirit then comes to abide in you and illuminates your mind (not the New Age way, but the Biblical way) and gives you complete understanding of scripture.

    John 14:26
    26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

    Regarding Billy Graham, he has been a tool of the Roman Catholic Church from the beginning: The New Evangelical – Evil fit for a New Dark Age

  • York

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):

    “If you are genuinely saved you can’t lose your salvation York, God promises to seal you until the end.”

    This is already a contradiction, since this is fundamental aspect of calvinism, THE PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS !!!

    So you YOU are the one who looks confused. You either believe that you are sealed till the end, or you believe that you can lose your salvation, so which is it ?

    Also, you are treading on dangerous ground by saying that “This YORK is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ and NO ONE can get genuinely saved in the CULT of Calvinism.”

    Therefore, YOU ARE CONDEMNING THEM TO HELL !! Since you are saying that “NO ONE can get genuinely saved” !! My mom was brought up as a calvinist, although I am challenging her beliefs, IT STILL DOES NOT MEAN THAT SHE IS NOT SAVED. I am beginning to wonder whether what Jacob Prasch said is true, are you a pathological liar ? You see this why women should not be pastors, because they are more susceptible to spiritual seduction.

    Now concerning Billy Graham, yes he is very suspicious, but I am not talking about whether he is saved or not, that is for God to judge. What I am saying is that many people have been brought to Christ by his crusades, otherwise you are saying that NO ONE has been brought to Christ by his crusades ?

    Keep safe in Jesus name
    Cheers

  • Colin Ford

    When I was a new believer, I learnt much from Revelation TV, in its early days. However I always sensed a strong underlying sympathy to the Roman Catholic Church. Ten years ago I didn’t know what ecumenism meant.
    Oftentimes Howard Conder and other presenters would talk about the ‘good people in the Catholic Church’. They would from time to time host debates and such like between Catholics and Protestants (I believe the inference being that we should find common ground and unite!), which surprised me because I thought the leadership at RTV were supposed to be evangelical Christians (whatever that term means today?).
    The leadership at RTV would propagate the view that you could be a practicing Roman Catholic and a saved Christian as long as you trusted in Christ alone for salvation. This is obviously a dangerous and false doctrine. If you believed in Christ alone, you wouldn’t pray to Mary as co-redeemer and take part in the blasphemous mass and many other pagan and idolatrous practices. If the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you, a cold shiver would run down your spine and you would show the whore Roman Church a clean pair of heels.
    The false Roman Church is a cult. Many people have been saved out of it, not by it. The many, many other errors of the Roman Church are, I believe well documented elsewhere on this website, and many others beside.
    There is no NT mandate for an officiating priest at an altar, that was abolished by the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. The rending of the veil proclaimed the termination and passing away of the ceremonial law: it was a sign that the old dispensation of sacrifices and ordinances was no longer needed; its work was done; its occupation was gone, from the moment that Christ died. And yet this whore Church will sacrifice Him again and again at their mass. The Roman Church teaches that we are not saved by faith alone, when would we ever know we had ever done enough to earn our salvation? Whatever peace does this wicked institution offer the poor undone sinner? I could go on and on. No true blood bought believer should ever have any sympathies whatsoever with the Roman Church. At every opportunity we should witness to those that are ensnared within her shackles.

  • John Chingford

    York

    You can believe in eternal security of the believer (biblical truth) without being a Calvinist (Augustinian/agnostic preconceived interpretation of the Bible). Just because Calvinism has one small bit correct, doesn’t make the whole of Calvinism truth.

    Calvinism believes you cannot lose your salvation because you are the preselected elect. Whereas the Bible teaches that we have eternal security because ALL those who receive Jesus are born into God’s kingdom and cannot be unborn after being born again.

    Regarding whether a Calvinist can be saved I differ from Deborah. Please read this article of mine which shows how I differ:

    [removed](Reformed Theologians) Are They Unsaved?”

    My argument shows that most probably ARE saved. This is an excerpt of what I wrote:
    “I AM NOT suggesting that a Calvinist is not saved. I will now address the reasons why I believe that (possibly) MOST Calvinists ARE saved!

    In dealing with this question, we need to be careful to always remember HOW one is saved. I do not know of anyone who becomes a Calvinist, Arminian or of any other belief system BEFORE they receive Jesus as their Saviour. Usually a believer becomes a Calvinist etc AFTER they come to faith (depending upon what Christian group influence them, at that time).”

    Therefore, if they were truly saved BEFORE they became a Calvinist then they are SAVED!!! However, if they were brought up in the atmosphere of Calvinistic teaching it is much more difficult for them to embrace the true gospel and be saved.

    I think this is possibly the point that Deborah may be trying to make.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    >> This is already a contradiction, since this is fundamental aspect of calvinism, THE PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS !!!

    No dude, If you read my comment earlier and understood the principle of ELECTION with regards to Calvinism you will understand that they are NOT SAVED, they are CHOSEN.

    The BIBLICAL version of Eternal Security is this. And I am going to just copy from an email I sent to someone a few days ago and save myself the time explaining it all over again.

    “There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between Calvinism’s version of ‘once saved, always saved’ and the BIBLICAL version. Calvinists believe you are CHOSEN by God before you are born, therefore you are actually ‘ONCE CHOSEN, ALWAYS CHOSEN’. If you are Elect, you can’t become un-elect! The Biblical version is WE HAVE FREE WILL, when you come to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and are REGENERATED the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you and HE SEALS YOU, and your name is written in to the book of Life (Philippians 4:3) 3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.” This verse also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus promises that He will never blot it out (Revelation 3:5) 5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.” These are those who overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelations, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and promises to acknowledge us before his own father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Conversely… (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15) “15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    In Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 21:27, we find the references to the “Lamb’s book of life”, in which are also names of all those who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The Lamb who has been “slain from the creation of the world” has a book in which are written all those who have been redeemed by His sacrifice. They are the ones who will enter the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:10) and who will live forever in heaven with God. Since the book of life is that which records all who have eternal life through the Lamb, it’s clear that the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life are one and the same.

    When the Holy Spirit comes to abide in us, he stays there forever! He does not come and go and come and go each time you fall into some kind of sin. (John 14:16) And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever. The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in (Ephesians 1:13-14) where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13-14) 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

    The Holy Spirit who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.” The picture of being sealed with the Spirit is one of ownership and possession. God has promised eternal life to all who believe in Christ, and as a guarantee that He will keep His promise, He has sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer until the day of redemption. Similar to making a down payment on a car or a house, God has provided all believers with a down payment on their future relationship with Him by sending the Holy Spirit to indwell them. The fact that all believers are sealed with the Spirit is also seen in 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30. 2 Corinthians 1:22 “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.” Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

    Prior to Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven, the Holy Spirit had a “come and go” relationship with people. The Holy Spirit indwelt King Saul, but then departed from him (1 Samuel 16:14). Instead, the Spirit came upon David (1 Samuel 16:13). After his adultery with Bathsheba, David feared that the Holy Spirit would be taken from him (Psalm 51:11). The Holy Spirit filled Bezaleel to enable him to produce the items needed for the tabernacle (Exodus 31:2-5), but this is not described as a permanent relationship.

    All of this changed after Jesus’ ascension into heaven. Beginning on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit began permanently indwelling believers (Acts 2). The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the fulfilment of God’s promise to always be with us and never forsake us.

    While the Holy Spirit will never leave a GENUINE believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) or “grieve the Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 4:30). Sin always has consequences in our relationship with Jesus. While our relationship with God is secure in Jesus Christ, unconfessed sin in our lives can hinder our fellowship with God and will quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to confess our sins because God is “faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the benefits and joy of His presence will feel far away from us, as sin drives a wedge between us and God and we effectively move away from Jesus.

    As Christians sealed by the Holy Spirit you will still sin, but if you are genuinely born again, the Holy Spirit will chastise you every time you sin and you will sooner than later repent for your sins. But there are people who PROFESS to be Christian and they DO NOT have the Holy Spirit in then. These are people who speak Jesus’ name, they go to church, have even have big ministries teaching people the bible and they sound so intelligent, but they have not been REGENERATED, because they refuse to give up their sinful ways, they refuse to pick up their cross and follow Jesus. (Luke 14:27) Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. They think they can have it both ways. (2 Timothy 3:5) “They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power. So avoid people like these….

    Yes, Satan always does twist scripture for his own advantage and tell people that at an alter call if they just pray the sinners pray they will be saved and never lose it, but God knows who is GENUINELY saved and who isn’t. We CAN’T fool Him. People CAN FOOL each other into believing they are real Christians, when in fact they are not. And how do we tell if they are not, well by the things they do (the fruit of the spirit) and say – the words the preach.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    Your logic can be applied to even a Word of Faith church…

    >> In dealing with this question, we need to be careful to always remember HOW one is saved. I do not know of anyone who becomes a Calvinist, Arminian or of any other belief system BEFORE they receive Jesus as their Saviour. Usually a believer becomes a Calvinist etc AFTER they come to faith (depending upon what Christian group influence them, at that time).”

    They can come to accept Jesus Christ and be saved yes inside a Calvinist church, but when they find out what Calvinism is all about THEY WILL LEAVE THE CHURCH, and they will not want to be called Calvinists, they will call themselves Christians.

    The same logic can be applied to any other church, Wof, NAR etc. People can go to a Wof church because they themselves are seeking Jesus Christ and they will be genuinely saved, but the Holy Spirit will open their eyes to the truth of what is being preached there and they will LEAVE. The same goes for Calvinism, the Holy Spirit will open their eyes to the truth of what the doctrine of Calvinism REALLY IS and the person will not tolerate such heresy, and leave the church and not want to be labelled as a Calvinist.

  • John Chingford

    Debs

    I would agree with you with a slight exception. Some people take longer than others to see through the WoF and Calvinistic lies. But (I agree) eventually they will have to leave that church or organisation but maybe some could stay a little longer and preach against that false doctrine until they are thrown out.

    Before anyone says “isn’t that the same for those saved in Catholic churches?” No it is not the same. 2 Cor chapter 6 is referring to such an organisation “temple of demons” when it says to “come out” and do not have fellowship with them.

  • Michael

    York comments…“If you are genuinely saved you can’t lose your salvation York, God promises to seal you until the end.”

    This is already a contradiction, since this is fundamental aspect of calvinism, THE PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS !!!

    You are wrong here…once TRULY SAVED by choice you cannot lose your salvation. However the emphasis is on choice and truly saved. The Lord Jesus died ONCE for our sins and we cannot be reborn twice.

    Secondly Calvinism teachings revolve around PRE-destination…ie choosen and selected without the choice of repentance and believing that Jesus Christ died for sins…no choice at all. To suggest that God would deliberately create a human being to be destined to agony and torment is blasphemy and an attack on a holy and just God.

  • Michael

    The Lord Jesus always gave a CHOICE to follow Him…He gave the prostitute a choice, He gave the rich young man a choice, the Samarian woman at the well, His disciples including Judas (but Judas had hidden agendas and motives…just like some of the false christians today) and the same Jesus has not changed His modus operandi today.
    We are called to make good choices by Him…the most important one is to recognise Him for who He claimed to be…the Messiah…the Saviour and His saving atonement at Golgotha.

  • York

    Ok thanks for the response

    John makes an interesting point….once saved always saved is only one aspect of calvinism and doesn’t define calvinism as a whole.

    The one aspect of calvinism that is disturbing is the fact that God chooses certain people for hell. I know this teaching causes chills down people’s spines, and mine.

    You know I think we are never really going to know the exact truth about God’s operation concerning grace, forgiveness, redemption, perseverance, since we cannot understand the mind of God.

    The fundamental issue is this : AVOID DELIBERATE SIN AT ALL COSTS !!!
    This statement is true irrespective of your views on predestination.

    When I think of babies…perhaps they are chosen for heaven ? I mean those babies that die young, since they never reaced the “age of accountability”, which is a big topic in itself, and which God determines on an individual basis.

    There are some who believe that babies and infacts CAN go to hell when they die, like the sons of muslims for example.

    What we can say is that ANYONE who is not born again is in danger of the hell if they don’t repent. “For unless ye are born again, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of heaven”.

    Also, those “christians” who are going to word-faith churches are either not born again to begin with, or, they are resisting the Holy Spirit, which can turn into blashpemy.

    I have a friend who is caught up in Kenneth Copeland’s gospel, and is applying it to his life. He lacks discernment on certain issues of scripture though, and I am VERY worried that he is not born again.

    All I know is, we cannot tell a person,”I believe you are on your way to hell.” This statement cannot be made by anyone except Jesus Christ.

    We can speculate all we want about people that we feel are on their way to hell, but….there is still the possibility of a death-bed conversion.

    Father I pray that you please forgive everyone that is one this site of their sins, and please help them to love one another, and open their hearts and minds to the truth.

    The greatest act of love that one person can do for another is to die for them. ( Scriptural reference ?? )

    Keep safe in Jesus name
    Amen

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    York

    >> John makes an interesting point….once saved always saved is only one aspect of calvinism and doesn’t define calvinism as a whole.

    No again, you do not understand the doctrine of Calvinism and ELECTION and PREDESTINATION – IT IS NOT THE SAME AS Biblical Eternal Security!

    >> You know I think we are never really going to know the exact truth about God’s operation concerning grace, forgiveness, redemption, perseverance, since we cannot understand the mind of God.

    No, again you do not read your bible, Jesus said WE WILL KNOW by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If we can not understand this then Satan can deceive us! THEREFORE WE CAN UNDERSTAND. Why can’t you understand York?

    >> The fundamental issue is this : AVOID DELIBERATE SIN AT ALL COSTS !!!
    >> This statement is true irrespective of your views on predestination.

    A deliberate SIN is to follow the DOCTRINE OF DEMONS “PREDESTINATION” after you have been told what it entails! Jesus warned you in the bible to make sure you do not follow after FALSE DOCTRINE. HE WAS NOT JOKING!

    >> There are some who believe that babies and infacts CAN go to hell when they die, like the sons of muslims for example.

    Oh but on the contrary dear York, your wonderful doctrine of Calvisnim believes this too! They believe that babies are EVIL. See here, listen to what Paul Washer has to say about little babies…

    Calvinism believes that God would CHOSE some little babies to be Elect and some before they are born to go to hell. This is why John Calvin could murder people because he believed he was ELECT and doing God’s work by removing the world of reprobate (evil people), this included children – see article below.

    >> Also, those “christians” who are going to word-faith churches are either not born again to begin with, or, they are resisting the Holy Spirit, which can turn into blashpemy.

    Um… um…. I don’t think you have the right to point fingers… and blasphemy? hmmm…

    >> I have a friend who is caught up in Kenneth Copeland’s gospel, and is applying it to his life. He lacks discernment on certain issues of scripture though, and I am VERY worried that he is not born again.

    You lack discernment too. You have no right to judge your friend York, you believe that Catholics are Christian and that Calvinists are Christian.

    >> All I know is, we cannot tell a person,”I believe you are on your way to hell.” This statement cannot be made by anyone except Jesus Christ.

    You seem to think that you can say it and then point fingers at others for saying it when they never said it… you are a strange character.

    >> Father I pray that you please forgive everyone that is one this site of their sins, and please help them to love one another, and open their hearts and minds to the truth.

    How dare you, ARE YOU JESUS? What you have done is acted like a Catholic priest would and ask forgiveness for others sin, you are JUDGING everyone on this website saying we are in sin because we do not agree with YOUR FALSE IDEOLOGIES!

    Read here if you want to know the truth: Unconditional Election and Total Depravity are Gnostic Teachings

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    >> I would agree with you with a slight exception. Some people take longer than others to see through the WoF and Calvinistic lies. But (I agree) eventually they will have to leave that church or organisation but maybe some could stay a little longer and preach against that false doctrine until they are thrown o

    Hmmm, 50 years ago we could say that, but today in the time we are living in and the URGENCY of the time we are living in, I don’t believe this holds true anymore. God is calling everyone OUT OF FALSE DOCTRINE before the tribulation starts and that is very soon.

  • Andy

    I don’t believe in the “perseverance of the saints”. That is works for salvation, which doesn’t save.

    I believe in the preservation of the saints. The Bible teaches that, since I have believed in Jesus as Savior, then Jesus keeps me and never lets go, and I will be in heaven. :)

  • Redeemed

    Calvinism twists the truth not only in eternal security. This is another subtle, yet drastic difference between the TULIP of Calvinism and the Bible. It presents a warped concept of the depravity of man. Washer is speaking PARTIAL truth. Yes, with the fall of Adam, mankind is born without understanding of the things of God.

    However, God in His grace creates man with the freedom to choose and with a conscience. Mankind has the God-given ability to choose to do right or choose to do wrong, even in an unconverted state. Calvinists would chalk that up to the “common grace” of God. Oh, God chooses who will be a murderer and who will only tell a lie or who will become a Hitler?

    Yes, Calvinists believe God creates some people only to send them to hell with no opportunity to be saved. Yes, man is born with the propensity to sin, that is true. But there is hope for every single person on this planet because Christ died for ALL, not just for those He hand-picked. Yes, He knows who will choose Him because He knows the beginning from the end. But this does not negate the free will of man. Washer ignores the passage that says He is not willing for any to perish.

    Calvinism carries the depravity of man to the EXTREME and yes, they do believe that some are condemned to hell even as they are born. That 18 mo. old child is grasping for something shiny that his little mind wants. He is a BABY! That is what ALL babies do – even those who are ELECT!! So I suppose Washer would say that elect babies will not cry and they will not throw tantrums, etc. How ridiculous!! I suppose he would say they are in their unregenerate state until they are old enough to understand. If God has chosen them, why wait? They would be a dream child for the parents! But woe to the parents who have a child who is not chosen – they will have to deal with a little monster!

    Of course this is ridiculous, but Total Depravity is ridiculous carried to the Calvinist extreme.

    Interesting on how this has morphed into a discussion on Calvinism. But there is a connection because Jacob Prasch on the one hand eschews Calvinist doctrine while at the same time embraces those who hold to it like MacArthur, Mike Gendron and others.

  • John Chingford

    Paul Washer does not come right out and say that babies who die go to hell, but he certainly implies it. When he says babies show evidence of their sin when the parent says “no” and the baby fights against the parent. He may be correct that babies are showing evidence of their sinful nature, but DOES THE BABY KNOW what they are doing or is it simply acting out of sinful instinct? Are they actually accountable for their actions if they haven’t reached the age of knowing good from evil?

    Please read this, Isaiah 7:14-16:

    “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.”

    Wow! It is referring to Jesus. It is NOT saying that Jesus had a sinful nature. The rest of scripture confirms that Jesus was not born into sin. However, it is saying that (GENERALLY SPEAKING FOR ALL children) there is an age in which they become accountable for their sin. “For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good”

  • Michael

    We all have our opinions or experiences about the God of the bible…this is a natural call of man. But we can never know Him until we listen to what He says. What He says must be believed…mankind is always dodging Him because we are sinful creatures…the flesh is against Him…the flesh took over in the Garden of Eden.

    True obedience and faith is really a simple and honest thing…in everyone’s heart there is the knowledge of good and evil. The power of sin came over man when she/he took initiative over this.

    This is a mystery and cannot be understood with the carnal mind because it is contaminated by the first disobedience by man.

    We try to explain God…we cannot with limited tools of the brain or mind.
    The cleverer we become the more we tend to move away because really all we see is an iota of His magnificience,sin starts puffing itself up here.
    Simple obedience to those hearts that are seeking the pure at heart are those that the Holy Spirit (God) responds too. I believe all mankind has the ability to know this even the insane. But even what I’ve said here is severely flawed because God is God and He cannot be understood…until He represented man and related to us. That is why the Word (everything He wanted to give to us in instruction) became flesh, that’s why the written Word must be obeyed. There are no additions or subtractions to it

  • Michael

    And…that is why God had to send His Son to die for these complex and many sins because He loved His creation, knew the problem of self will and it’s sinful nature and the severe remedy of the Christ dying for our sins.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    Isaiah 7:14-16:

    “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.”

    That is an incredible verse, because it also teaches us that little children do not know the the difference between evil and good until such time as their little minds come to understand what it means. And there is no set time for all children, each child comes to knowledge of good and evil at different ages, some really young others a lot older.

  • vincent holloway

    Hi, not in regard to any Author in particular.
    We have the Scriptures-Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, if He is “The Author and finisher of our faith” Why bother to read a book by anyone else?

    I agree with your article, but wonder how much money you spend on “opinion” books and if you get to refund them?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    vincent

    >> but wonder how much money you spend on “opinion” books

    Oddly enough most of the ‘opinion books’ (and it has not been many I must add, maybe three books in all) I’ve bought I’ve ended up scrutinizing with a fine tooth comb and end up being grateful that I bought them because NOW I KNOW THE TRUTH, that the author is not who they say they are. When I set out to buy the book I actually thought I was buying something ‘kosher’.

    >> and if you get to refund them?

    I’ve written so many things in the margin in my books questioning their doctrine that I don’t think they will want them back…

  • Colin Ford

    I know not what Paul Washer said. I have never listened to his sermon, or read any of his works.
    Reading 2 Samuel 12.23 David said ‘I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me’. I understood this to say that his son had NOT perished.
    Read what the sweet Psalmist of Israel said in Psalm 58.3.
    In Romans 9.13, cited from Malachi 1.3, Paul says God hated Esau, and of course this is written in Genesis 25.23. Clearly God said ‘The elder shall serve the younger’.
    We know the story well. Esau had the freewill to choose his destiny, which clearly he did, yet this was fore ordained when the two babies are still in Rebekah’s womb!
    We can go round in circles!

  • Redeemed

    I think one can reasonably assume that the reason most watchers buy books by false teachers is so they can use them as a resource. I know someone who has such books in their library and has them marked “For Research Purposes Only!” For nstance, that is why Deborah purchased Jacob Prasch’s book that is the topic of this thread.

    There are other sources or commentaries that could be considered “opinion” books but can be useful study tools, but one must be careful. And in most cases if not all, those books can’t be found in “Christian” bookstores because they must make a profit and operate by the law of “supply and demand”.

    There are trusted Bible teachers’ material available, but most likely the expositor has gone to his/her reward.

  • Colin Ford

    I have always believed that the reason most folk buy so-called Christian books is because they find it easier reading, and in their opinion the sacred passages are too hard, or rather too dry and dusty!
    They put their trust in the guru, because he ‘has it all figured out’, and some tragically will not depart from his/her teachings thereafter. This is the danger especially in light of the Saviour’s eternal words in Matthew 24.4. So in effect these books replace the Word.
    Redeemed has it just about right, in his second paragraph in comment no 190.
    I don’t know why Deborah ‘picked on’ Shadows of the Beast, but she certainly is correct to highlight Jacob’s apparent double speak , or moot point regarding the pre-trib rapture teachers/brethren,(if indeed plain English means anything anymore). Maybe some know they are false teachers in this regard, so don’t take offence? When I purchased this book over a year ago, I showed those pages to my wife, and she said she couldn’t understand why he gets invites to so many pre-trib churches!
    It must be his personality!?
    In many ways Shadows of the Beast is an excellent book.

  • Andy

    God foreknew what Esau would do, which is why God declared what Esau would do. Esau had perfect free will just like everybody else does. God’s foreknowledge is the key. That is another reason why Calvinism is totally false.

  • Redeemed

    Re: 189

    This is correct, we could go round in circles searching for examples of some who were ordained to carry out a particular task or part in history such as Judas who would betray our Lord Jesus. It is kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg.

    But the bottom line is that God in His foreknowledge knows who will be receptive to his gift of salvation and who will not. He knows the end from the beginning. This does not negate the free will of man. We tend to place limits on God and think of Him in human terms.

    We see example after example of people who exercised their free will and there was no divine hand pulling the strings as with a marionette. God does LEAD, but only those who desire to be led of Him.

    Yes, children are born with original sin, but it is only when they reach a stage of development that the conscience kicks in and they become accountable. All children are under grace until the age of accountability. But Reformed doctrine places a babe from birth either in the camp of the elected bound for heaven or the unatoned-for and bound for hell with no hope of redemption. The latter is so out of character for our God of compassion and mercy, offering the gift of salvation to everyone who will surrender to Him.

    A babe in arms is helpless and needs constant care. As they develop, they need parents who will raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
    Reformed doctrine says that a Christian parent who loves their child and raises them to respect the things of the Lord and teaches they the way of salvation may be doing so in vain because thata child may not be amongst the elect. It would break the heart of any Christian parent to think that their precious child is consigned to hell.

    If even a HUMAN parent loves their child that much, how much MORE does our heavenly Father love each of His creations? The Bible tells us that He knits each one in the womb – did He do so just to consign them to hell? That is not the character of our sovereign God! He COULD have created mankind without free will if He so chose, but He chose to allow mankind the freedom to either accept or reject Him. He wants us to serve Him out of LOVE, not because we have no other choice!

    Doesn’t Joshua 24:15 makes it abundantly clear?

    And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Colin

    >> I don’t know why Deborah ‘picked on’ Shadows of the Beast,

    lol, honestly, I was pro-Jacob Prasch to a point and I was told this book was excellent, so I bought it, but as always when I read stuff I apply 1 John 4 to everything. I didn’t make it past the Prologue, I was horrified.

  • Redeemed

    Andy, I notice that yours and my comments arrived at exactly the same time and said exactly the same thing. Talk about a meeting of the minds. You stated so much in just a few words. Great comment.

  • Colin Ford

    Andy and Redeemed,
    I agree with you both.
    FOREKNOWLEDGE IS THE KEY.
    My understanding of this great theological controversy of the ages known as Predestination vs. Freewill, or Calvinism vs. Arminianism:
    The Lord died for the whole of humankind, but only the foreordained (elect) or those who came to repentance and faith will be saved (babies/infants are out of the equation here, being before the age of accountability).
    However the result is the same. The elect are saved, not by any merit or good in themselves.
    I have NEVER ONCE called myself a Calvinist (though I believe the five points are straight out of the pages of Holy Writ).
    However there are some that seem to be awfully proud of themselves that they have become Calvinists.
    All these labels can be a big turn off. Also we must try not to become blinded by our cherished doctrine(s)whatever they are.
    I hope that any comments I have made here are not antagonistic, that is NOT the spirit in which they are intended. A little while back, I believe Redeemed quoted a relevant Scripture; ‘Iron sharpeneth Iron’ Proverbs 27.17; What is the point of me finding a blog site where we are all in perfect agreement? However would we learn anything? The fundamental unification of Christianity is the atonement, faith and repentance toward the Saviour, and obedience to His Word.
    This Calvinism vs Arminianism so called does tend to cause division in the body of Christ. Should we be surprised? Even in NT times the apostles had their disagreements, some quite heated?
    Salvation belongeth unto the Lord; Psalm 3.8, Revelation 19.1, we cannot come to faith except the ‘Father draw him’ John 6.44. How can we come to repentance unless God through His Holy Spirit does this great work in us by granting us this repentance; Acts 11.18?
    Obviously there is much wrong with parts of ‘Reformed theology’ as it is called, especially A-millennialism and replacement theology. They stopped reforming once they got the Pope out of their system.
    Going back to the subject matter of the book in question, I do agree that the pre-tribulation rapture cannot be expounded in any shape or form from the pages of Scripture. It is that other ‘ism’ by the name of Dispensationalism that is responsible for the pre-trib teaching.

  • Andy

    Redeemed, thank you. I received from the Lord the point of foreknowledge way back when I first got saved, it was as clear as day to me. We have perfect free will, and because the Lord knows what we will freely choose to believe, He elects based on that. It is simple, as you said. :)

    It takes fifty thousand chapters in some “calvinist commentary” for them to try to explain away and reject that simplicity.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Debs,
    Referring to your comments 87, 129, 140 and 158 about Andrew Murray, I would like to sound the alarm about him.
    I have many of his books, and after reading your comments I did a little bit of research on him, and I am devastated by what he taught and believed, and I ask the question: Did he have the Holy Spirit?

    Murray taught that when someone gets saved, the person DOES NOT receive the Holy Spirit, but rather the person experiences EXTERNAL operations of the Holy Spirit to bring him to salvation. Then the person subsequently needs to receive the Holy Spirit (what he calls the full blessing)

    Consider these few quotations from his book “The Full Blessing of Pentecost”
    Chapter #1 How it is to be taught.> (this book is public domain. Just Google it)

    The first quotation which follows, is the WHOLE thesis of his book:

    “In these chapters it is my desire to bring to the children of God the message that there is a TWOFOLD Christian life. The one is that in which we experience something of the operations of the Holy Spirit, just as many did under the old covenant, BUT DO NOT YET RECEIVE HIM as the Pentecostal Spirit, as the personal indwelling Guest, concerning whom we know that He has come to abide permanently in the heart. On the other hand, there is a more abundant life, in which the indwelling just referred to is known and the full joy and power of redemption are facts of personal experience. It will be only when Christians come to understand fully the distinction betwixt these two conditions, and discern that the second of these is in very deed the will of God concerning them, and therefore a possible experience for each believer.

    “There are two ways in which the Holy Spirit works in us. The first is the preparatory operation in which HE SIMPLY ACTS ON US BUT DOES NOT YET TAKE UP HIS ABODE WITHIN US, though leading us to conversion and faith and ever urging us to all that is good and holy. The second is the higher and more advanced phase of His working WHEN WE RECEIVE HIM AS AN ABIDING GIFT, AS AN INDWELLING PERSON, concerning whom we know that He assumes responsibility for our whole inner being, working in it both to will and to do. This is the ideal of the full Christian life.” [DTW Note: REALLY??????]

    “THE SUPREME NEED of the Christian life is TO RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, and when we have it, to be conscious of the fact and live in harmony with it.”

    There are many others like that in that little booklet.

    WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY:

    Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    Gal_4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
    1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    etc…

    This is devastating. If his doctrine of salvation and of the Holy Spirit are so completely wrong and heretical, I fear he was wrong on everything else.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    Thanks for that excellent super sleuthing work on Andrew Murray!!!

  • Redeemed

    Colin, you said:

    The Lord died for the whole of humankind, but only the foreordained (elect) or those who came to repentance and faith will be saved (babies/infants are out of the equation here, being before the age of accountability).

    Colin, I do appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue with those with whom you obviously disagree. You do so with respect and a Christ-like spirit.

    This statement seems quite contradictory. If Christ died for the whole of mankind, but He foreordained who would be saved, that doesn’t add up. Also, babies/infants ARE in the equation, because babies/infants do grow up and if they are not foreordained to be saved, they are lost from birth because it is all cut and dried and they were consigned to hell from the womb.

    Balanced dispensational teaching is an important key to rightly dividing the Word. Have you ever read any of the commentaries of H.A. Ironside? If not, I think you would find them quite interesting.

    Debs, I never can get the hang of doing block quotes, so maybe you wouldn’t mind fixing this.

  • Andy

    To me there’s no “controversy”. It’s simple. God knows who will freewill choose to believe, and those that choose to believe, are called the elect from before creation. But they still had to choose to believe by free will. So Calvinism is totally off. The false doctrine of Calvinism seeks to reject believing in Jesus Christ for salvation, and seeks to do an end-run avoiding the Gospel, and that is what makes Calvinism so dangerous and damnable heresy.

  • Colin Ford

    Redeemed,
    At least someone is awake around here!
    I was actually referring to infant mortality! If you remember, several comments ago, that was the thread of the conversation regarding a Mr Washer’s sermon?
    I understand where you are coming from as regards the word FOREORDAINED, but what I was trying to convey is that it is the same result.
    When I seriously started to study the bible, it became obvious to me that in God’s economy, what will happen in the future has already happened in eternity. It must have done, because all the prophets have prophesied about events that will happen in the future,many already having come to pass. So God knows who will come to faith and repentance.
    Without the Holy Spirit doing a divine work of repentance in anyone it is impossible to be saved, salvation belongeth to God.
    I quoted John 6.44 in my above comment, because the Saviour says clearly that ‘No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him’. The text is a plain declaration of man’s natural corruption and helpless impotence. Man is dead in sin. He cannot come to Christ, except the Father draws him.
    This is but a very simple exposition, and yes I have freewill to decide whether I want to walk or cycle home…
    Harry Ironside, yes I have read some of his works, obviously not everything he teaches is wrong, of course not! But I am utterly opposed to dispensational teaching-it separates Israel from the Church and teaches another gospel as regards salvation. They believe that the OT saints could be saved by keeping the law..

  • John Chingford

    Hi Colin

    You “almost” have it but have left out a vital component. Yes, no one can come to the Jesus unless the Father draws him. But the Father draws everybody through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. “The Holy Spirit will convict the world concerning righteousness, sin and judgement” “many are called but few are chosen”. The Bible generally tends to understate to extremes sometimes. Example, (after Jesus was resurrected) it says “they saw the Lord and were glad. I should imagine they were MUCH MORE than simply glad!!!!

    Therefore, when it says “many are called” I am sure it is referring to EVERYBODY “For God so loved the world that WHOSESOEVER ………” “It is not God’s will that ANYBODY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance”

    Many (everybody) is called but most resist the Holy Spirit and willingly (freewill) reject Christ. However, God wants to give everybody a chance to hear the gospel and therefore come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is another way of saying that they are (with the conviction) being drawn to Jesus, BUT not all will accept Christ under that conviction but will harden their hearts. Without the work of the Holy Spirit it would be IMPOSSIBLE for ANYBODY to come to Jesus at all.

  • John Chingford

    Colin

    How were the OT saints saved? Before you reply, please look at my article entitled “Why God Required Animal Blood Sacrifice, In The bible?” Please go to:

    [removed]

    It may possibly change your mind regarding dispensationalism once you grasp that subject, ie that there was a different dispensation given in the OT for the Jews as opposed to the church (including Jews) in the NT

  • Colin Ford

    Hello John,
    Hope you are well.
    I have just read that article on your Last Days Watchman site. Essentially there is nothing there that I am in disagreement with.
    The subject of Dispensationalism, and it’s teachings as I understand it, drives a wedge between Law and Grace. It teaches that the Gospel Jesus preached is not the same as the one that Paul taught; the gospel of the kingdom as opposed to grace! One destiny for the church and one for Israel. Dispensationalists teach that much in the Lord’s Olivet discourse and other places in Scripture is not for the Church and only for unbelieving Jews. It rips the heart out of the gospel message, and it is this which is behind J.N.Derby’s teaching (the so-called father of Dispensationalism). Simply and bluntly put, Derby and his followers, Schofield, Chafer, CH Mackintosh,W Kelly,A Gaebelin,Ironside and many others believed and taught this system of theology in order to perpetrate the so-called pre tribulation rapture theory, which of course is inextricably linked with Dispensationalism.
    As we know Dipensationalism spread like wildfire in America and across the western hemisphere because of Scofield’s reference bible, and the Dallas Theological Seminary.
    The first president of this seminary was Lewis Sperry Chafer, in his eight volume ‘Systematic Theology’ he quotes;
    ‘Whatever may have been the divine method of dealing with individuals before the call of Abraham and the giving of the law by Moses, it is evident that, with the call of Abraham and the giving of the law and all that has followed, THERE ARE TWO WIDELY DIFFERENT, STANDARDIZED, DIVINE PROVISIONS, WHEREBY MAN, WHO IS UTTERLY FALLEN, MIGHT STAND IN THE FAVOUR OF GOD’. Emphasis mine.
    This is an amazing statement. First it recognizes the difficult question that Dispensationalism must answer with regard to the pre Abrahamic saints. To what BODY do these redeemed people belong? Chafer certainly implies here that he is not sure how these people came to stand in the favour of God. Second, however, Chafer IS sure that since the time of Abraham there have been TWO ways that fallen man could come to a right standing with God.
    This is the core belief that is behind Dispensational theology that prior to the cross salvation came by obedience to the law. This is obviously error! Men in EVERY dispensation were always saved by grace through faith in the atoning blood of Christ the Saviour. OT saints believingly looked forward to the cross, NT saints look back to the cross.
    So as to your question; ‘How were the OT saints saved?’ Clearly, according to Dispensationalism it was by the blood of bulls,goats etc’.
    1 Peter 1.10-13 is a plain NT declaration that the OT prophets believed salvation came alone by grace and not works, and ONLY through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    There is much confusion in Dispensational theology.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Colin

    You didn’t read the key part of my article properly. I didn’t say that the blood of animals saved OT saints. These are some of my key excerpts of what I said:

    “This blood has always been a representative and forerunner to the death of the Messiah, which would result in an everlasting covenant to eternally forgive our sins.”

    “the examples I have given were leaving a principle, foreshadow and precursor in the Abrahamic covenant BEFORE the Law was given by God to Moses. The New Testament shows that the Law was just a shadow (symbolic) of the things to come (in Jesus).”

    “The blood was to be used for only one purpose and that was to atone for our sins. To use it for other purposes would be to dilute the power of what the blood represents.”

    “As the whole sacrificial system was to serve as a temporary measure until the total fulfilment in Jesus, God would not allow abuse of the blood as it would empty it of its power before Jesus was sacrificed for us.”

    The whole point was that OT saints were saved by looking forward to and in believing in the blood of JESUS everytime there was a blood sacrifice. Jesus said “Abrahan SAW my day and rejoiced”. Hebrews 11 makes this clear. So, OT saints were truly saved, only if they had faith in God. Their observance of the Law was practiced out of their faith in God.

    The true saints knew a Saviour would come and their faith was in this Saviour, but for the meantime they needed the sacrificial system until all things werte fulfilled.

    Therefore, you are almost correct. However, Paul makes it clear in Romans that God gave a dispensation to the Jews that they could be saved by the sacrificial system by combining faith AND works of the Law. However, Paul’s point was that the purpose of the law was to show them that they were sinners who needed salvation via the blood. The OT dispensation is wholly different because Jesus HAS NOW DIED in complete FULFILMENT and salvation has been opened up to ALL men (not just by becoming Jews) but for all who receive Jesus. IT IS COMPLETELY different now.

  • Redeemed

    Hey Colin,

    I don’t consider myself a Bible scholar, just a sinner saved by grace who has walked with the Lord some 55 years. I am still learning. I find dispensational theology quite easy to underestand and clear. On the other hand I find Reformed theology convuluted and confusing.

    God is the same and never changes, but His method of dealing with mankind differs from time to time, dispensation to dispensation. This does not create a conflict of any kind, rather it smoothes it out and fits together seamlessly.

    A dispensation merely refers to God’s method of dealing with mankind to carry out His purposes. There is really nothing ocmplicated about it and as I say I am not an “accomplished” Bible scholar or authority.

  • Michael

    John commented…The true saints knew a Saviour would come and their faith was in this Saviour….

    There is absolutely no doubt about that, Job despite his severe trials and testings spoke out:

    Job 19:25-27

    25 For I know that my REDEEMER liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

    26 And though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

  • Colin Ford

    John,
    I didn’t say that YOU believed that the OT saints were saved by the blood of bulls and goats! No I don’t believe that for a moment.
    But what I am trying to demonstrate is, that it IS the faulty system of Dispensational theology which requires it.
    Dispensationalism does indeed drive a wedge the size of Africa between law and grace and divides the second advent into two separate comings, amongst many other things.
    It is very difficult sometimes to articulate the faulty aspects of Dispensational theology without causing offence to those that adhere to it’s doctrines, an obvious failing of Jacob Prasch’s! And I am sure I have come very close.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Colin

    >> But what I am trying to demonstrate is, that it IS the faulty system of Dispensational theology which requires it.

    Nope it’s not faulty, just because someone like Lewis Sperry Chafer has a warped view of Dispensationalism does not render the whole thing faulty.

    It does not drive a wedge between Law and Grace. The OT was Law and Grace, the NT Grace. John explained it pretty well.

  • Michael

    This came from one of the OLDEST books of the bible.

    Whenever I feel down…I read this and my spirit soars and my faith is renewed. I love these verses as they are the ultimate proof that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Redeemer and I rejoice with all my fellow believers.

    I play this part of Handel’s Messiah…it is beautiful beyond words.

    I wanted to elaborate on these verses but somebody called Joman on the website said it better than I could… Joman whoever you are thank you…

    Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. (KJV)

    For I know that my redeemer liveth,

    The word “For” means that this verse is a conclusion based on the previous verses.
    Those verses are…

    Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
    Job 19:24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

    Which is an amazing thing since these verses show that Job didn’t know that God was recording his discussion and would indeed include his words in a book, which book is, the Bible.
    Job is saying here that his desire is that he not be forgotten and that he might be understood.
    So, Job based his hope that his words would be written in a book on his faith in his redeemer.
    Job reveals that his redeemer liveth. This is Job saying that his redeemer is God and that God lives for ever and ever, and therefore, his hope that his words be written and kept eternally can only be fulfilled by the one who lives for ever, that is Jesus Christ the redeemer.
    Note that the rock he wants his words recorded on is the rock of salvation, that is, the rock is the redeemer.

    and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

    Here Job is prophesying that the redeemer Jesus Christ will at the latter day (the end of the age) actually stand upon the earth.
    By this means Job is revealing that he actually does believe that his words can be written down for all eternity since his redeemer lives for ever and even more than that, his redeemer will one day show up to set things right.
    The idea of a redeemer reveals that Job recognized his need of a saviour who can pay for his sin and redeem his soul from death.

    And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    The worms of the grave will destroy the body of flesh.
    The word “though” means that “even though his body is destroyed nevertheless”…. Job confesses that in his flesh he shall see God.
    This reveals Job’s faith in the ressurection of the body of flesh.
    Since Job knew the former flesh will be destroyed, it is clear that he believed that he would obtain a new body of flesh from his redeemer.

    Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another;

    This reveals that Job had faith that one day he will indeed arise from the grave. And then he shall see God for himself.
    I think that Job’s emphasis on seeing God for himself reveals that he has a great desire to know God intimately and perfectly.
    The “mine eyes shall behold” I think means that Job here wants to express that his belief is that he shall have a real body with real eyes and not just some mystical or metaphysical notion of what seeing God might mean to others.
    And I think the word “behold” is there to express that Job will not only see God, but will behold him, meaning that he will look upon God in a fixed and focused way so as to understand God perfectly.
    And finally I think that Job by saying “and not another” means to specifically force all to understand that the resurrected Job will be the very same Job that is speaking and not some new and unrelated creature of some mystical or metaphysical existence. Very interesting.

    though my reins be consumed within me.

    The reins are what controls the living creature.
    The conscience of a man.
    The reins are what expresses that spiritual voice of the conscience that says, go left or right or straight ahead as the governor demands.
    So, Job here, I think, is saying that even if he has absolutely no more personal control of anything because of death, that nevertheless, he will be redeemed, resurrected, and given a new body.

    In conclusion I think Job is saying that by the power of his redeemer, by the power of the resurrection, by the literalness of his new body, that even though he can’t at this moment secure his words, by which words he is seeking to be understood and believed, express who he is, he nevertheless, believes that God will do so at the resurrection if necessary.

    This show us that Job was prepared to state his case and die without obtaining any present tense resolution of all his trouble.
    But, that even so, Job believed the truth of the matter concerning him would be established by God, who according to Job, cares enough to redeem him, cares enough to establish truth and cares enough to not let lies stand unchallenged.
    I am amazed to see that Job expressed God’s hidden desire to write the Bible.
    It seems to me at times that God, who desires on his own to do many unknown to us things, waits on doing them until a man of faith prays of him to perform it.
    Apparently God likes faith so much that he loves to show how that his faithful ones are involved in all the works of God.
    That sure is a lot of grace toward the faithful.

    It is great to see how a man of faith so long ago knew the Bible would be written. Last edited by joman; 02-17-2010 at 02:06 PM. Reply With Quote .

  • Michael

    This is definitely one of the strongest verses of the bible…let alone the OT.

    It is sadly often neglected but it ultimately proves that a Messiah that redeems us from all sin and the resurrection is true to those that call out to Him to save them and indeed trust Him and believe this in their heart.

    This however comes from a humble and broken spirit. A renewed and humble and honest heart before a holy God. We cannot justify anything. Focusing on the riches of the world and our works will never appease the power of our sins…

  • Truthful Conversation

    This is an example of blind loyalty to Jacob Prasch:

    J. Jacob Prasch, Hebrew scholar, founder of Moriel Ministries.

    “Jacob has a better knowledge of the Old Testament than any teacher I know. His understanding of Jewish Midrash as taught by Jesus and the apostles in their use of biblical symbols and analogy is often scoffed at yet no one can refute it. Jacob always makes it clear that one cannot get their doctrine from Bible typology, but it is useful for a deeper understanding of the clear doctrine taught in Scripture. When Jacob preaches, no one’s head is bobbing from falling asleep. When the unction from the Holy Spirit comes upon him, the insights from his Bible studies blow people’s minds. It is common to hear collective oohs and aahs in the congregation when Jacob takes the pulpit. One thing Jacob has taught me is how to see things from God’s perspective. When righteous indignation comes up in Jacob, it is a small picture of God’s wrath toward rebellion and spiritual adultery. One just has to discern the difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of Jacob. I love the analogy of the Bible as a loaf of bread he uses. They look the same on either end; Genesis and Revelation clearly display the end from the beginning with many similarities. Jacob digs deeper.” Here is the link:

    Comment: JP’s “righteous indignation” is a small picture of God’s wrath? I don’t think so!! Is she comparing JP to God?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Truthful Conversation

    J. Jacob Prasch, Hebrew scholar, founder of Moriel Ministries.

    “Jacob has a better knowledge of the Old Testament than any teacher I know. His understanding of Jewish Midrash as taught by Jesus and the apostles in their use of biblical symbols and analogy is often scoffed at yet no one can refute it. Jacob always makes it clear that one cannot get their doctrine from Bible typology, but it is useful for a deeper understanding of the clear doctrine taught in Scripture. When Jacob preaches, no one’s head is bobbing from falling asleep. When the unction from the Holy Spirit comes upon him, the insights from his Bible studies blow people’s minds. It is common to hear collective oohs and aahs in the congregation when Jacob takes the pulpit. One thing Jacob has taught me is how to see things from God’s perspective. When righteous indignation comes up in Jacob, it is a small picture of God’s wrath toward rebellion and spiritual adultery. One just has to discern the difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of Jacob. I love the analogy of the Bible as a loaf of bread he uses. They look the same on either end; Genesis and Revelation clearly display the end from the beginning with many similarities. Jacob digs deeper.” Here is the link:

    1) Jesus and the disciples NEVER taught Midrash FOR CHRISTIANS TO FOLLOW. Yes a few verses here and there in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are from Midrash but that does not mean you now have to use EXTRA-BIBLICAL books to ‘illuminate’ doctrine.

    2) ‘is often scoffed at’—- because ITS WRONG! people have REFUTED IT but the blind refuse to listen.

    3) “it is useful for a deeper understanding of the clear doctrine taught in Scripture.” —- The Midrash is useful? What about the Holy Spirit? Jacob Prasch goes to EXTRA Biblical sources to get a deeper meaning of scripture, he is pushing Christians in the direction of ancient Jewish tests for answers to deeper meanings of scripture, instead of replying on the Holy Spirit for that.

    4) “One thing Jacob has taught me is how to see things from God’s perspective. When righteous indignation comes up in Jacob, it is a small picture of God’s wrath toward rebellion and spiritual adultery. One just has to discern the difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of Jacob.” —-My goodness, is she comparing Jacob Prasch to God? I don’t believe it. Shocking.

  • Picture Jacob Prasch standing in Heaven in front of the Father seated on the throne with the Lord Jesus at the Father’s right hand, being able to see the holes in the Lord Jesus’s hands.

    Jacob Prasch with his back to the Father & the Lord Jesus facing all the saints in Heaven stating the words “William Saunders is a low life not worthy of the time of day” (which is what Jacob stated in his comment).

    Psalm 119:21 – “Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from Thy commandments.”

    Isaiah 13:11 – “And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

    Obadiah 1:3 – “The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee…”

    Proverbs 8:13 – “The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.”

    The proud are cursed.

    The Lord will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease.

    The proud are deceived.

    The fear of the Lord is to hate evil which is defined with pride and arrogancy.

    In order to receive grace, one must be humble -

    1 Peter 5:5 – “Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

    James 4:6 – “But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.”

    I don’t wish anyone (even my enemies) to burn in Hell for all eternity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Jacob Prasch and those who condone his behavior or change his pride/arrogancy in to “righteous indignation” are in spiritual danger.

    It’s time Jacob Prasch and his followers humble themselves, repent and fear the Lord, as we all need to do.

    Going back to Proverbs 8:13, one can’t fear the Lord and accept Jacob Prasch’s behavior all at the same time.

    If Jacob Prasch or anyone wants grace, it comes through humility.

    All this I say in the fear of the Lord, because even when we state others are proud/arrogant, we have the potential to be proud/arrogant in the very accusation.

    So, I say that the very pride/arrogancy that Jacob Prasch is displaying, I/we have the same potential.

    Lord have mercy on me and rescue Jacob Prasch from his own spiritual condition.

  • Truthful Conversation

    Debs,

    Yes, I do find it shocking that the writer could make such claims. I know that sometimes I have felt a ‘righteous anger’ regarding something I see, hear or read. I have known that anger to be a different anger to my human feeling of anger… but I would never presume, or say, that that anger was akin to God’s RIGHTEOUS anger/wrath.

    William, I read your lovely post, and you are right, all of us can fall into pride and arrogance, even in accusing others of the same thing. I know I have done so myself. I do try to constantly be aware of the true reasons I feel certain things, and confess the sinfulness of those feelings. People can sure ‘rub us up the wrong way’, and it is only in keeping close to Jesus and in keeping a spirit of humility, that we can overcome offense, or choose not to be offended. Forgiveness of others plays a huge part in staying humble, and I know this to be true as I have had to do it so often!

    We serve such a MIGHTY AWESOME GOD, every day it is a wonder to me that He loves me and that He is so tender hearted and merciful, and forgiving. Debs is RIGHT to expose Jacob, and it is hard NOT to take offence at the things he says to Debs and others. I believe, that whilst exposing the lies of Jacob’s teachings, we should also pray for him and his ministry, that the Lord would use what has happened to humble this man and all those that support him. And through that humbling we pray that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be exalted.

  • Marion

    Related to this comment,

    “When righteous indignation comes up in Jacob, it is a small picture of God’s wrath toward rebellion and spiritual adultery. One just has to discern the difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of Jacob.”

    God’s wrath is HOLY…

    Jacob’s wrath is FILTHY…

    examine the fruit!

  • Leigh

    @ John Chingford:
    I have listened to Prasch MANY times speak AGAINST the fallacies in the Pentecostal/Charismatic church! I don’t know what you are listening to, but you are wrong!

  • Leigh

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):
    Is that all you can prove is by a BLOG!!?? You are such an ignorant person it’s sad!

  • Leigh

    @ Redeemed:
    Prasch doesn’t hold an Arminian theology EITHER! You people are so stupid it’s SAD! I have heard hours and hours of Prasch’s teachings, have YOU? Cause it seems like not casue your accusations are so stupid!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    >> Prasch doesn’t hold an Arminian theology EITHER!

    You need to open your eyes and pay more attention, Jacob Prasch says on his own website that he follows John Wesley who upholds Arminianism and so does Jacob Prasch.
    Go have a look on his website if you dare. The bible tells us to TEST all things, why don’t you TEST your god Jacob Prasch and see how true he is.
    Ah don’t worry I’ll help you out, here is an article where Jacob Prasch says he is Arminian – took me all of 3 seconds to find it.

    Arminians believe in a works based salvation as they believe you can LOSE YOUR SALVATION – This is what Jacob Arminius believed, that those who believe they are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith.

    Thank you for call me names, carry on.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    Is that all you can prove is by a BLOG!!?? You are such an ignorant person it’s sad!

    Carry on calling me names, you just prove that the ‘spirit’ that Jacob Prasch has infests his followers as well, or is it that his followers like Prasch because he is such a nasty person.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    >> I have listened to Prasch MANY times speak AGAINST the fallacies in the Pentecostal/Charismatic church! I don’t know what you are listening to, but you are wrong!

    There is a difference between listened to someone and listening with your EYES OPEN guided by the Holy Spirit.

  • Leigh

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):
    I came out of the charismatic movement, I KNOW what the charismatic/pentecostals teach, so don’t tell me that I have not listened, have YOU??!!! There is something majorly wrong with YOU, I am sorry but there is!! Listen to Prasch’s teaching on BlogTalk radio called Devil Into Details, he CLEARLY says extreme Arminianism is false, as he ALSO says the same about Calvinism, if you knew ANYTHING about the Bible then you would know that the Truth IS in the middle. BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism twist the bible but yet they BOTH say Truths too! THAT is what Prasch says. JOhn Wesley? So what?! So if someone says they like Spurgeon then they are are a stanch 5 point calvinist in your book too??!! You are HIGHLY ignorant and judgmental! I am sorry but you are!

  • Redeemed

    Leigh, you would defend and follow a man who would unleash such unholy wrath upon those who dare to question his teachings?

    Have you examined his Midrash teachings and that he promotes a false Nephilim teaching? And that he winks at Calvinism?

    Leigh, after you have examined these concerns, then please come back and tell us what you have discovered and if you are in agreement with Mr. Prasch or with what is written here and which is biblical.

    Also, do you agree with Mr. Prasch in implying that those who suffer from the disease of epilepsy could be demon-possessed?

  • Leigh

    I find it ironic AND hypocritical that you all will admonish those in error, and rightly so, the Bible does say so, BUT yet when someone admonishes YOU, you guys can’t take it. The Bible says NO ONE is about reproof, what makes you so high and mighty that when someone challenges you, you twist it around like they are the ones who are the bad guys!!?? Was Prasch harsh (IF that was even him who commented)? Yeah he was, but you guys ARE indeed slandering, however, I find it funny, that in one of your comments DEB you you point out that you are human and that it hurt your feelings the way he reacted, well, how come YOU get a free pass when someone says something about you for you to react poorly, but yet when Prasch does it, he is pinned as enemy #1, you guys are straight up hypocrites! Name calling? Gimme a break, there are far WORSE names that could be said on this thread than these, you just WANT intense confrontation so you can use more ammo to fuel your agenda of slander and hypocrisy! GOOD LUCK!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    Carry on calling me names…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leigh

    >> BUT yet when someone admonishes YOU, you guys can’t take it. The Bible says NO ONE is about reproof, what makes you so high and mighty that when someone challenges you,

    When has someone admonished us and used doctrine to back us what they are saying? You are NOT doing so? Are you talking about the article and Midrash and arguing its points? NO you are not!

    Secondly, The BIBLE is USED TO REPROOF, CORRECT, INSTRUCT someone:

    2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

    No where has Jacob Prasch come back to defend what I did BIBLICALLY against him for follows FALSE DOCTRINE, instead he attacked me personally and insults me with names, just like you are doing. This is not the first time Jacob Prasch has done thing, if you go and do a search on the internet, you will find that ANYONE who QUESTIONS HIS DOCTRINE (WHICH I HAVE EVERY RIGHT DO DO LEIGH – The Bible TELLS ME SO) gets attacked in the most vicious manner. I could at least 5 to 6 instances of people being viciously attacked.

    How would you like it if I went and attacked you personally, attacked your health, threatened you, told people where you work, etc? Did anyone in the bible do this? NO Leigh. Do I do this to ANYONE? NO leigh.

    >> Was Prasch harsh (IF that was even him who commented)? Yeah he was, but you guys ARE indeed slandering,

    You kidding, you must be as nasty as him to think he was not nasty and vile. Of course it was him, But YOU do not have to believe it. A hundred thousand others would however because they are not Jacob Prasch’s blind sheep who refuse to TEST THE SPIRITS as per 1 John 4:1-6

    We are not slandering. What do you think Prasch is going when he calls out FALSE TEACHING is he not SLANDERING! You speak out of two sides of your mouth, just like your master Jacob Prasch.

    >> Name calling? Gimme a break, there are far WORSE names that could be said on this thread than these,

    Really? Is that how a Christian acts? What other names CAN A CHRISTIAN USE that are considered ChristLIKE.

    Galatians 5:22-24 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    >> you just WANT intense confrontation so you can use more ammo to fuel your agenda of slander and hypocrisy! GOOD LUCK!

    Ahhh carry on, you sound like a wonderful Christian person, the fruits of the spirit are just oozing from you.

    1 Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”

  • Redeemed

    Leigh, exactly where has anyone slandered anyone here? There has been an exposure of false teaching, documenting and showing from the Word of God. This is slander? Would you accuse the Apostle Paul of slandering false teachers?

    Midrash has clearly been shown here as a false method of interpreting scripture. It has been clearly shown that Mr. Prasch tolerates the false teaching of Calvinism amd supports ecumenicals.

    It has been proven ethat Jacob Prasch did indeed comment here and carried on such a horrific ungodly rant. John Chingford has received vile e-mails from Mr. Prasch.

    Leign, you are the one who is being hypocritical and not facing facts. Deborah has the courage for the sake of those who are being misled to expose false teaching. Hopefully you will come to realize that you are falling into the trap of idolizing man.

  • Carolyn

    Leigh, even if you weren’t a JP follower…even if you just showed up here to give us a piece of your mind…which you have, I’ll give you that. The Holy Spirit does not act in the way you do. Even if you were right on every point and Debs was wrong on every point (which she is not), but let’s just say she was…YOU would still be wrong because you are reacting out of anger, you are responding with your flesh and the Holy Spirit is grieved. Name calling does not benefit the listener. I beg you. Ask Christ’s forgiveness and then come back and ask Deb’s forgiveness before you say anything more.

  • elissa

    You twisted scripture: Not Prasch.
    Consult a Greek dictionary before going apostia on the body… would ya?
    2 Thessalonians
    1 Ἐρωτῶμεν δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, ὑπὲρ τῆς παρουσίας τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡμῶν ἐπισυναγωγῆς ἐπ’ αὐτόν
    1Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him

    The coming of our Lord AND our gathering up….. THAT DAY WILL NOT COME ____________________________ and ____________________________________________

    Paul said “a falling away” and “Man of sin be revealed”

    so argue with Paul because he didn’t say 3.5 years yada yada….. he said a falling away and the man of sin be revealed.

    duh.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    elissa

    You didn’t read the article did you… read it and pay attention to ‘the day of the Lord’ and what it means.

  • Redeemed

    elissa wrote:

    You twisted scripture: Not Prasch.
    Consult a Greek dictionary before going apostia on the body… would ya?
    2 Thessalonians
    1 Ἐρωτῶμεν δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, ὑπὲρ τῆς παρουσίας τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡμῶν ἐπισυναγωγῆς ἐπ’ αὐτόν
    1Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him
    The coming of our Lord AND our gathering up….. THAT DAY WILL NOT COME ____________________________ and ____________________________________________
    Paul said “a falling away” and “Man of sin be revealed”
    so argue with Paul because he didn’t say 3.5 years yada yada….. he said a falling away and the man of sin be revealed.
    duh.

    Elissa, your snide and snarky comments smack of arrogance, and not a sincere desire to speak truth.

  • Carolyn

    From: http://www.seekgod.ca/jpupdate.htm

    From Jacob’s own mouth, such about three-quarters down the page, I thought an excerpt would be order:

    Jacob Prasch of Moriel also states that Christians today are bound by the thinking of the Reformers, and that we must shed any hindrances to exegesis we have assimilated from their teachings, and embrace the much more accurate Jewish thought, found not only in the Midrash, but in the Talmud.

    “The problem with the Reformers is that they only went so far. They made rules governing the application of their grammatical-historical system in order to refute medieval Roman Catholicism, and many of those rules are still taught in theological seminaries today. One such rule is this: There are many applications of a Scripture but only one interpretation. That is total rubbish! The Talmud tells us there are multiple interpretations. Who did Jesus agree with? The Reformers? Or the other rabbis? …” 15.

    Although Jacob would have us believe that Jesus agreed with the rabbis, it is a matter of Scriptural fact that Jesus spoke often against the Rabbis who were referred to at that time as the Pharisees.

    In his scathing rebuke to the Rabbis and Pharisees, Jesus warned his disciples not to follow their pernicious and hypocritical ways Matthew 23:6-8

    ” And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.”

    ….According to the Scriptures, Jacob P. has it wrong. Whose disciple will you be? Who will you believe? If JP can destroy your faith in the Scriptures, what will you have left? That’s right Midrash, Kabbalah, Talmud and Jacob Prasch…(rolling eyes)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    WOW

    “The problem with the Reformers is that they only went so far. They made rules governing the application of their grammatical-historical system in order to refute medieval Roman Catholicism, and many of those rules are still taught in theological seminaries today. One such rule is this: There are many applications of a Scripture but only one interpretation. That is total rubbish! The Talmud tells us there are multiple interpretations. Who did Jesus agree with? The Reformers? Or the other rabbis? …” 15.

    And this is what we have been saying all along, and JP confirms it.

  • Mandy

    [delete - you are just as rude as Prasch - not surprising.]

  • I have yet to find a verse of scripture that says word for word that Jesus will return before the tribulation (pre tribulation). That’s becuase the teaching of pre tribulation is a deception. If you can find the verses or verse then please show me where it is.
    However in Matt 24:29-31 we read this “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Does anyone suppose this might mean that Jeus meant He would come after the tribulation?

    2Thess 2:1-14 the context in verse 1 is His coming and our gathering together. This is one event not two. Verse 8& 9 tells us “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,”

    The same brightness mentioned in Matt 24:27-28 is surly connected to His coming to destroy Satan. The tribulation is Satan at work (under the Lords control of cause) that’s why we read in Revelation 13 and veres 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

    Anyone who believe christians are not menat to suffer and will not go through tribulation don’t read the scripture.

    When will our resurrection be?

    The reason we need to know this is that rapture (the gathering together to meet the Lord) can not happen until after resurrection, so when is resurrection?
    Martha knew the answer
    In John 11:24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
    Did she agree with Jesus?
    In John 6:39-40 Jesus said
    “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    And again
    “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John6:54)
    So we know that any one who is part of the body of Christ, both Old and New Testament believers will be raised up on the last day. Not any time before the last day.

    So that resurrection day must be after the tribulation after the man of lawlessness has been revealed and after the falling away.

    Lastly what about us not being appointed to wrath, firstly as mentioned before tribulation is not Gods wrath it’s the working of Satan under Gods dirrection but look at Rev 6:12-18 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    Here we sea exactly the same words describing cosmic colamity the sun and moon being darkened just as in Matt 24 and it’s call here in Rev 6 “the great day of His wrath”

    So we can conclude Jesus comes after tribulation, it is the last day , it is the day of wrath and he will resurrect His people and gather them to Himself to save them from His wrath.

    This is the biblical view it’s post trib but pre wrath. it’s a fact.

    Yours

    Nigel Wright

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nigel

    We have plenty articles answering your questions, please if you will read them and all the comments. And in fact re-read this article again because it’s clear you don’t understand it.

    The Rapture – An Article to Knock Your Socks Off
    The Rapture – An Article to Blow Your Hair Back!
    Not Wrath, but Rapture – Will the Church Participate in the Great Tribulation?
    When will the Rapture Happen?
    Twelve Reasons for the Rapture

    Here is the most latest article: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Part 1)

  • Redeemed

    Nigel, why did you choose to comment against a pretrib rapture on this thread?

    Have you even read the many comments on this site giving BIBLICAL support to Christ’s return prior to the Tribulation?

    There is no need to rehash this. Every statement you make here has been explained fully if you will just take the time to look into it. You are not rightly dividing the Word, taking verses out of context.

    If you take the time you will be blessed and have peace and assurance as never before. But that of course is your choice.

  • Redeemed

    I now see why Nigel posted here – sorry I was thinking this was on another topic. It is early in the a.m. here, so please excuse. Haven’t had my first cup of java yet. :-) But I’m crystal clear on the eschatology – it is emblazoned into my heart and mind and I am awaiting my Lord and Savior’s return. It is my Blessed Hope and it is my heart’s desire that others share that blessing and don’t get ensnared in false teaching regarding end times.

    Some downplay it’s importance, and it is certainly not essential to salvation, but it DOES speak to rightly dividing the Word and right understanding of God’s plan for this world.

  • Jeff Ruzicka

    Jacob Pracsh knows what he is talking about. I think I know more about the Bible than the guy who wrote this article. Prewrath is a valid argument as we know we can never be under God’s wrath but we can be under Satan’s. I can’t go into all details as I don’t want to write for 5 hours. Also, to not believe in the Nephilim which are in the Bible is extra biblical as disbelief in this was added centuries after Christ.

  • You definitely don’t need five hours to display your ignorance. You have poignantly done so in just 83 words. Congratulations.

  • Sharon

    LOL! Thomas you have given me my good laugh of the day! The old saying, “Ignorance is Bliss” I am thinking isn’t true. LOL LOL

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    You definitely don’t need five hours to display your ignorance. You have poignantly done so in just 83 words. Congratulations.

  • Andy

    “if you are Elect your children will be Elect”

    You cited in the article that John MacArthur believes and teaches this. John MacArthur is wrong about so very much, so this wouldn’t surprise me at all. I’m just curious as to where you found this? I’d like to include it in my list of his errors, if it is true.

  • Andy,

    You may find the info you need here.

    “The children of believers are baptized not in order that they who were previously strangers to the church may then for the first time become children of God, but rather that, because by the blessing of the promise they already belonged to the body of Christ, they are received into the church with this solemn sign.” J Calvin Institutes, IV, xv, 2.

    “Our children, before they are born, God declares that he adopts for his own when he promised that he will be a God to us, and our seed after us. In this promise their salvation is included.” Calvin’s Institutes (4.xv.20)

  • Andy

    Thomas,

    I see, John Calvin strikes again. The words of man put above the Word of God. Yes, anyone that willingly labels themselves with the name Calvinism, shares in the sins of John Calvin. Thank you for finding that. The more I dig into the lies of Calvinism, the more I am shocked that so many people believe it.

  • Jorge

    Still I can not find anyone who can argue the Bible with Jacob Prash
    God bless that man.

  • mamacanuck

    I know I’m late to the party but I did stumble upon this article while researching Midrash and I have in the past enjoyed some of Jacob’s teachings.

    The author of the article (Deborah, I presume?) said that “Jacob accuses Pre-tribulationists of saying that the apostasy is actually the Rapture. He says, “Some even venture so far as to identify the apostasy (apostasia) as the Rapture, not, as the context dictates, the departure from the truth when a delusional judgment comes upon those rejecting the truth they once professed. (2 Thes 2:10-11) [pg. 20]” I have never heard of this before…”

    I don’t know if you are familiar with Dr. Thomas Ice from the Pre-Trib Research Center but he wrote an article regarding this that I found very interesting and if true, would indeed be an ‘overt’ bible verse teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    You can find the article at pretrib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

    BTW, you should get to know Dr. John Walvoord because he was an excellent bible teacher and defender of the pre-trib position. I think you were uncharitable in your comments about him because he never changed his mind about anything regarding the rapture and would be the first to argue that he would do so only if convinced by God’s unchanging word.

  • Will

    Oh my gosh! Chuck Smith and Rick Warren joking around as brothers in Christ! What apostasy! Come on folks, you need to get a life. You should be ashamed that you are squandering the precious time the Lord has given you on this. Invest the time you waste here by instead making disciples of Jesus Christ. Computer posts is not discipleship. Get off your rear end and go share the gospel with your neighbor.

    -A Minister

  • Will,

    Making disciples includes Christ’s warning to take heed lest you be deceived (Matthew 24:4). Are you prepared to disobey Him?

    For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Co 11:13-15)

    This is but one example of how Paul continually warned his brethren against false teachers. What would you have done if you had lived in the time of Paul? I suppose you would have told him “You should be ashamed that you are squandering the precious time the Lord has given you on this. Invest the time you waste here by instead making disciples of Jesus Christ. . . . Get off your rear end and go share the gospel with your neighbor.”

  • [...] diligence to "test the spirits" as the…Posted on: 30-11-2012Deborah (Discerning the World) on Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash WayMyfanwy >> I have my suspicions that Debs is my imaginative friend… : ) gotta laugh!! [...]

  • [...] read the following articles and comments BY Jacob Pracsh himself:  Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way,  Jacob Prasch the Railer,  Moriel Ministries and MIDRASH, Jacob Prasch – But By The Grace of [...]

  • […] the World discernment Jacob Prasch Moriel Nick VanderLaan pride railing Roger Oakland Link to above CLICK HERE Link to above CLICK HERE Link to above CLICK HERE If you listen to the broadcast […]

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