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Angus Buchan’s Holy Ghost Chaos or….was it Something Else.

Angus Buchan's Holy Ghost Chaos or....was it Something Else.

Angus Buchan- Feast Of TabernaclesThis was posted by Angus Buchan on his Facebook page.  A most bizarre letter to the public detailing his trip to the Dead Sea.   Please see my notes in GREEN.

—————–

Dear Friends

The young man that accompanied me on my trip to Israel, after experiencing the phenomenon that I am about to relate to you said to me that he does not believe that we will see anything like this again in our lifetime.

I was asked to be the keynote speaker for the event at ‘The Feast of the Tabernacle 2012’ down at the Dead Sea, at Ein Gedi. It is an annual event that has been taking place for over thirty years. There was a crowd there of approximately four and a half thousand pilgrims from every corner of the earth (very significant), because at the time of the visitation of the Holy Spirit to the disciples in the ‘upper room’ people had congregated in Jerusalem from all the corners of the earth as well.

[DTW note:  What a load of nonsense.  The Pentecost in the book of Acts was a ONCE OFF occurrence. The Pentecost signaled the beginning of the church age.

The only reference to the actual events of Pentecost is (Acts 2:1-4). Pentecost is reminiscent of the Last Supper; in both instances the disciples are together in a house for what proves to be an important event. At the Last Supper the disciples witness the end of the Messiah’s earthly ministry as He asks them to remember Him after His death until He returns. At Pentecost, the disciples witness the birth of the New Testament church in the coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell all believers. Thus the scene of the disciples in a room at Pentecost commences with the beginning of the Holy Spirit’s work in the church with the conclusion of Christ’s earthly ministry in the upper room before the crucifixion.

Another aspect of the Day of Pentecost is the miraculous speaking in foreign tongues which enabled people from various language groups to understand the message of the apostles. In addition is the bold and incisive preaching of Peter to a Jewish audience. The effect of the sermon was powerful, as listeners were “cut to the heart” (Acts 2:37) and instructed by Peter to “repent, and be baptized” (Acts 2:38).  The narrative concludes with 3000 souls being saved, the breaking of bread and prayers, apostolic signs and wonders, and a utopian community formed in which everyone’s needs were met.

Is Angus Buchan implying that his meeting was ANOTHER Pentecost? Signalling the beginning of ANOTHER church Age? Impossible.]

 When I arrived it was exceedingly hot, as always at the Dead Sea. There was a tremendous anticipation in the air of what God was going to do. The organizers had told me at the Christian embassy that they were expecting God to make a change. They had been praying and fasting that the Lord would bring a new season into the life of the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem (ICEJ). I was escorted to my seat in the front so that I could get onto the platform easily and the atmosphere was one of peace and joy. There were dancers dancing for the Lord from literally all over the world. The music team was amazing. Afro American singers from the United States of America, musicians from all over Europe and I could almost see the Lord was smiling from heaven. Eventually they called me up to the stage and they prayed for me and every one settled down to hear the Word of God.

I opened my Bible (it’s a heavy red coloured study Bible) and in the NKJ version I started to read from Act 2:1-4, it was speaking about the Holy Spirit visiting the disciples in the ‘upper room’. Verse 2 talks about a mighty rushing wind which came through and tongues of fire settled on each one of the disciples heads in that room. I had no sooner finished reading that scripture which was reminding them that Peter went out after that and preached. His first sermon that he ever preached three thousand people came to Christ. A man who had denied the Lord three times and who literally had been a coward was now being transformed. Why? Because he had been baptised in the Holy Ghost.

[DTW note:  Peter could preach so magnificently because of the Holy Spirit yes, but not because it was a “baptism in the Holy Ghost” as seen in today’s churches that Angus Buchan would have us believe.  Note, AFTER the Pentecost experience, Peter went out to peach and the 3000 who came to salvation did not experience the ‘wind and tongues of fire above their heads’ that those in the upper room experienced. Because what happened in the upper room was a special experience – God was empowering them for the Great Commission.]

As soon as I finished reading I closed my Bible and started to walk on the platform like I normally do, up and down … and a wind came from no where. Literally a mighty rushing wind, that seemed to be coming from every side, from the north, south, east and the west at one time. It was a wind I can only describe it was very similar to what a tornado must be like, because it blew that heavy Bible straight off the lectern. It started blowing all the overhead screens, ripping them to shreds, dust was everywhere and it started to rain.

[DTW note:  I don’t read anywhere in the bible that the Holy Spirit is destructive]

I need to remind you that the Dead Sea is not called the Dead Sea for nothing; there is not a blade of grass in that place. It looks like the moon; it is a real dessert area. That’s the place where David hid from King Saul, when Saul was trying to kill him. They never get wind there, wind does not blow in the valleys – wind is known to blow on the mountains. We are not talking of the Sea of Galilee which is alive and vibrant with fresh water we are talking about the Dead Sea where the water is so salty and so stagnant that people can not actually sink, you can not drown in the Dead Sea.

This wind came from nowhere. It started blowing and as the intensity grew and as I started welcoming the Holy Spirit and saying “Come Holy Spirit”, the wind intensified and the structure started shaking, a huge platform with a steal girders above me where multicoloured lights were mounted. A beautiful setting and it was like God just stripped everything. I found myself standing on the platform on my own with nothing, except a microphone. I went through three microphones that night. The third one they had to give me on a direct lead, an electrical cord. One of the organizers in the front, a Norwegian by the name of Jan who brought his OB tuck by ship all the way from Norway to film the event live back to Scandinavia said a man from the far East who couldn’t speak English was shouting to him “fire, fire” and he understood that it was the fire of God coming downwhich it was by the way. But he looked around and eventually saw that the electrical cables going from his OB truck had caught on fire.

The satellite link was cut off because of the mighty wind that was blowing. I started to speak in tongues, I started singing in tongues. I encouraged the people to do the same, they got on their knees, then they stood up and then they were crying, we were laughing, it was literally “Holy Ghost chaos.” 

[DTW note:  Angus Buchan spoke and sang in gibberish which he considers tongues!  And encourages everyone to to the same.  The bible on the other hand says that at Pentecost, they spoke human languages that they themselves did not understand. 

Acts 2:6-11

Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Acts 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Acts 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

So as you can see it is clear that people from other areas could understand the Galilaeans speaking the Word of God in their language.  It was not gibberish or gobildy gook that Angus Buchan and the rest of the false church speaks today.

The ‘gift of tongues’ given to the early church was given as the Holy Spirit willed. Because the Holy Spirit is sovereign. No one has the right to demand that he be given any certain gift or gifts as an evidence of the Holy Spirit’s baptism.  Tongues was certainly not evidence of salvation.  For example, some people in the Corinthian church were given the gift of tongues to edify the church – this tongue was an earthly language.

1Cor 14:2 “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.”

G1100 γλῶσσα glossa (glows`-sah) n.
1. the tongue
2. (by implication) a language
3. (specially) a language not naturally acquired

The Corinthian church did not have the Bible, so the gift of tongues was needed, but then they ceased.  Corinth, was a market visted by many a merchant from Asia, Africa, and Europe, and had a wildly mixed population speaking many a different language.  To exercise of the gift of tongues in preaching bought many an unbeliever to salvation.

1Cor 13:8  “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”

But, tongues served their purpose, a very useful one, in authenticating the Message that was delivered as being DIVINE;  these signs followed the proclamation of the truth. Now with God’s complete revelation in our hands (the Bible), we do not require signs to manifest it as the Word of the Lord. When preached in power, it authenticates itself]

Please see this article explaining “Tongues” – Speaking in Tongues ]

I can only explain it like this, it was like the Lord took His hand from heaven and He wiped it clean from anything that we had tried to do, there was nothing left. I was standing alone, I was leaning into the wind to try and keep my balance and God was moving amongst the people.

Every nation on earth was represented. I am an Evangelist, I am aware of my responsibility to preach the Gospel and to pray the sinner’s prayer with unbelievers. Well I want to tell you for the first time in my life I never even made an alter call and the people started running forward. Hundreds and Hundreds of them. Then something else that I have never done in my life before, the Israeli crew that was responsible for erecting the stage area pleaded with me to please tell the people to go back to their seats because they were afraid that the structure was going to collapse. But no one was listening to me; they were experiencing a tangible manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

[DTW note:  I don’t believe it, why would God come and destroy your stage?  We have 1 of 2 things happening here.  1) This is God’s judgement on you and your false teaching;  that you dare come to God’s land Israel and speak your Latter Rain false teaching there.  2) Because you love your signs and wonders so much, and people prayed for ‘God’ to make a change, Satan jumped right in and blew up a tempest wind that you mistook as being the Holy Spirit.  Well your god really did make a change, he re-arranged your stage for you and left you standing with nothing, so much so that you could not preach (which was probably a good thing, considering it’s Latter Rain false doctrine anyhow)]

Just as a matter of interest, let’s see how the Holy Spirit of the Bible operates:

Who is the Holy Spirit?

  • The Holy Spirit is God, the third Person of the Trinity.  (Acts 5:3-4)
  • The Holy Spirit is a divine person, a being with a mind, emotions, and a will. (1 Corinthians 2:10; Ephesians 4:30; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11)
  • The Holy Spirit is also omnipresence (Psalm 139:7-8)
  • The Holy Spirit is omniscience (1 Corinthians 2:10-11)
  • The Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we can’t pray (Romans 8:26-27)
  • The Holy Spirit is Helper our Comforter and our Counsellor (John 14:16,26; 15:26)
  • The Holy Spirit will guide us and lead us into all Truth according to Biblical scripture. (John 16:12)A crucial part of the truth the Holy Spirit reveals is that Jesus is who He said He is (John 15:26; 1 Corinthians 12:3)
    • There is NO extra-biblical revelation from the Holy Spirit.
  • The Holy Spirit’s role is that of gift-giver (Corinthians 12)The Holy Spirit is also the fruit producer in our lives (Galatians 5:22-23)
    • The Holy Spirit convinces us of Jesus Christ’s deity and incarnation, that He is the Messiah, i.e.,
    • He gives glory to Christ in all things.  (John 16:14)

How do we receive the Holy Spirit

  • We receive the Holy Spirit the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
  • We receive the Holy Spirit by simply receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour (John 3:5-16)

What does a genuine baptism look like?

  • ‘Baptize’ comes from the Greek word which means “to submerge in water.”
  • Regarding baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
  • Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. The action of being immersed in the water pictures dying and being buried with Christ. (Romans 6:3-4)
  • Baptism is a picture of our leaving our old life and becoming a new creation. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
  • Are there any signs and wonders at a genuine baptism?  No.
    • A baptism is only an act of obedience, a public proclamation of faith in Christ and identification with Him.

Are there any happenings that go with the filling of the Holy Spirit?

  • No, the evidence of a genuine salvation is you are now not controlled by your sinful nature but by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:9)
  • Chastisement by the Holy Spirit when we sin to repent of our sin and not sin again. (Hebrews 12:6-7; Hebrews 12:8)
  • Evidence of being born again is:
    • Obeying scripture, God’s commandments.  (1 John 2:5)
    • Respecting God’s pronouncements as authoritative in your life. Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. (1 John 1:8)
    • No more love for the world. (1 John 2:15)
    • Living in daily awareness that Jesus Christ will return for His own! (1 John 3:2-3)
    • You are sinning less now than when you first made a profession of faith in Christ. You hate sinning.  (1 John 3:9)
    • Love for other believers in Jesus Christ. (1 John 3:14)
    • Pray all the time and having prayers answered. (1 John 3:22)
    • Sharp Discernment as you find it easy to sort out the claims of various religions, etc. (1 John 4:1)
    • You have a conscious awareness that the Holy Spirit of God lives in you. He teaches you things from the Scriptures on a regular basis. (1 John 4:13)

What does ‘Walking in the Spirit’ mean?.  What does being “Filled by the Holy Spirit’ mean?

  • The Filling of the Holy Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life as we grow in Holiness.  Also known as to “walk in the Spirit; It is to follow the Holy Spirit’s leading.
  • It is essentially to “walk with” the Holy Spirit, allowing Him to guide your steps and conform your mind. (Ephesians 4:1; Philippians 1:27)

Evidence or Signs and Wonders:

  • Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)
  • If we need healing or deliverance we are to ask HIM DIRECTLY through prayer and He will heal us.
    • We do not need to go to men with so called ‘gifts of healing’ when we can approach Jesus Christ directly.
    • Yes we can have others pray for us (genuine Christians that is).
    • We pray in faith, but faith means that we are to trust God. We trust Him to do what is best and to know what is best. (Romans 8:28)
    • Suffering is part of life for both the unbeliever and the believer. For the believer it is often used by God in the development and maturing of our faith.  (Philippians 3:10)
    • Paul the apostle prayed to have his “thorn in the flesh” removed, but God said, “No” because He wanted Paul to understand that for in Paul’s weakness, God’s strength is made perfect. (2 Corinthians 12:7-10).
    • Don’t conclude that because you have not been healed that you have an absence or lack of faith or some secret sin that prevents your healing. You just might have God’s glory resting on you for a special purpose.

A local tour operator told me that in thirty one years of coming down to the Dead Sea every single year he had never ever seen rain and he had never experienced a wind of that measure. My dear friend I have no doubt whatsoever that the Holy Spirit visited us.

[DTW note:  Angus has no doubt that it was the Holy Spirit?  Really?  I decided to go through the NT on behalf of Angus Buchan and I can’t find any instance of the Holy Spirit behaving in such manner.  The Holy Spirit is even a soft still voice as mentioned in Kings which is in the OT.

1Kgs 19:12  “And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.”  

Now I know there are going to be many who are going to tell me that God is doing things outside of His box.  What they are implying is that God lied when He said His Word was His FINAL AUTHORITY on all matters.  I prefer to stick to God’s box (the Bible), thanks.].

I want to tell you that never again will I apologize for the presence of the Holy Spirit. He will be pre-eminent in all my meetings, in all my conversations and in everything I do. I firmly believe that we need to be filled with the Holy Spirit and I firmly believe that the evidence is speaking in a beautiful language.  If it is possible for a man to be born again, again then that’s what happened to me. I am so filled with the joy of the Lord; I am so at peace, I have so much confidence. I want to encourage you to allow Him to fill you with His Spirit; He is standing at the door, Revelation 3:20 and He is knocking. I have no cause to tell you a lie. I want to tell you that He is alive and that He is well. Give the Holy Spirit place in your life and He will bless you.

God bless
Angus Buchan

source:  http://www.facebook.com/pages/Angus-Buchan/257406448855


 

[DTW note:  Angus seems to think that receiving the Holy Spirit is a separate act over and above being saved.  This is not true.  These three passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of salvation.   Paul said to the Corinthian believers that they all were baptized by one Spirit and all given one Spirit to drink because all possessed the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 states it even clearer; if a person does not have the Spirit, he does not belong to Christ.

Therefore, the possession of the Spirit is an identifying factor of the attaining of salvation. Further, the Holy Spirit  is the “seal of salvation” (Ephesians 1:13-14) which the person receives at the moment of salvation. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that our salvation is secured the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior.

There are many a ministry that have this simple process of how the Holy Spirit operates confused. The truth is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation (the moment you are genuinely saved, you are “baptized by the Holy Spirit”).  The filling of the Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life. Unbiblical ministries confuse the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”  as an act separate to salvation, and this is where Satan jumps in and fools people, presenting them with a false holy spirit.

Angus said, “If it is possible for a man to be born again, again then that’s what happened to me”  The Holy Spirit does not come and go, come and go from a believer. He either abides in you, or He does not.   

Rom 8:9   “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”  

In fact the bible says it’s impossible for your to be born again twice.  

Hebrews 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In conclusion, how do we receive the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit by simply receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (John 3:5-16). When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit becomes our permanent possession the moment we genuinely believe.

Angus said, “I firmly believe that the evidence is speaking in a beautiful language”.   The evidence of being saved is NOT speaking in tongues(gibberish) as Angus so states, I have given a list of evidences above.

See video 0f Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne Joking in “Tongues”

*** Please read the correct biblical interpretation of Joel 2 and Acts 2 below –  

….Latter Rain adherents have a movement that believes in a last day’s revival unlike any other in history. This revival is for the church.  They incorrectly apply eschatological passages specifically for Israel to the church. The common mistake is taking the scripture in (Acts 2:17) which says: ‘God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh,’ to substantiate what is happening in the new revivals today. This is not the meaning of this verse and cannot be applied today for the above mentioned reasons….Your Sons and Your Daughters Will Prophesy, But Not Yet…]

Edited 13/11/2012 – Video found.

I found the following video of Angus at the Dead Sea, at Ein Gedi.  It appears that Angus asks God for a repeat of what happened at Pentecost!  That is not what he said in his newsletter above.  Imagine that.  Now we know that in the bible people kept asking Jesus for a sign, for a miracle that He was the Son of God (INSTEAD OF BELIEVING BY FAITH) and Jesus said to them… (Matthew 12.39-40) “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”.

The only sign that Angus will never be satisfied with is that fact that Jesus was crucified, buried for 3 days and rose again.  Faith is not enough for Angus, he must have a sign.  And Jesus will not give it to him.  Who does give signs and wonders?  Satan.  Matthew 24:24  “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”

——————–

LIST OF ALL ANGUS BUCHAN ARTICLES:

  1. Angus Buchan – A ‘False Bible’ in 366 Days for Men
  2. Angus Buchan says, “Put your Doctrinal Differences Aside!
  3. NAR Invasion of SA – Rick Joyner, Angus Buchan, Danie Slabbert, Nevil Norden @ Apostolic Prophetic Conference – July 2012
  4. Angus Buchan and the Roman Catholic Reconciliation
  5. The ‘Manifest Sons of God’ belief of Angus Buchan
  6. Angus Buchan, Benny Hinn and God TV (with Wendy and Rory Alec)
  7. Graham Power & Angus Buchan – The Transformation of Africa
  8. Angus Buchan and the Promise Keepers (FREEMASONARY)
  9. Why does Angus Buchan get promoted by God TV
  10. THE ORIGINAL VERSION – The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan – Faith Like Potatoes
More...

76 comments to Angus Buchan’s Holy Ghost Chaos or….was it Something Else.

  • Werner

    There is no reason to believe that the gift of tongues mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is any different from that mentioned in the book of Acts. In both places the tongues involved speaking in earthly languages that one had never learned. The same Greek word “glossa” is used for both. This word refers to the tongue itself (Mk. 7:33) or to a language spoken by the tongue.

  • Carm

    I don’t know much about this guy, but one of my friends is really into him and since he is mentioned so often here I googled him. What bothers me is the image – it’s almost unreal: who walks around everywhere with a cowboy hat and red bible under his arm, even when he’s meeting politicians? Normally old fashioned farmers would take their hat off as a sign of respect, when greeting a woman or stepping into a church, wouldn’t they? But no, that image is everywhere. Call me paranoid, but it reminds me of Monarch mind control – the subjects/puppets have their whole public image (or the image that a dominant personality projects) planned out for them, from what they will wear, what music genre they will fit into, who they’ll shack up with tomorrow – it’s all a show. These images are diligently and cleverly crafted to target a certain market/audience. The image of Angus Buchan is very cleverly crafted, very clever indeed. I’m NOT saying he is a Monarch puppet, I don’t have any proof… but, in my opinion, that’s the fakest image I’ve seen in a long time.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carm

    You have said something that I have been thinking for a long time.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Werner

    Sorryyyyyy, you are right, I was smoking my socks last night and mis-read a verse. I dunno what I was thinking. O_O I have fixed the article.

  • Chris De Wet

    URGENT!!!! The ICEJ has proven to be an organization whereby no pro-active evangelisation to the Jews are permitted. Instead they are instructed to wait until a Jew asks them questions regarding the Messiah. This however is the “Political correct” thing to do according to them, however when one considers the Scriptures the Lord Jesus, and all the apostles and disciples ministry to the Jews was straight forward, offensive, pro-active and mostly replied with violence and aggression.

    Deborah, you stated: Is Angus Buchan implying that his meeting was ANOTHER Pentecost? Signalling thebeginning of ANOTHER church Age? Impossible.] I would sya that this is the whole agenda – the beginning of ANOTHER church age known by NAR the NEW WORLD ORDER church.

    I am including a letter which I wrote to Michael Utterbeck of the ICEJ quite some years ago. In this letter you will see that the ICEJ is in agreement with the prosperity teachers as well as Rome.

    Angus has become part of this and that is very sad indeed.

    This letter was written to the director of the ICEJ after I had tried to get clarity in the ICEJ directly from him. The incidences mentioned in this letter should be a clear indication of how these people think and what they do.

    Here is the letter:
    —————–

    Dear Mr. Michael Utterback,

    I have received correspondence from the International Christian Embassy (ICEJ) for some time now. I have also received the Bridges for Peace newsletters and teachings and have found some very interesting teachings in the Bridges For Peace articles, where the Jewish culture is used to explain the meaning of the New Testament better to the Christian.

    My prayers have always been to support the Jewish people in every possible way, because the Scriptures do command us to do so. Just like so many others, I have an inherent burden towards the people of Israel.

    I also feel that if it was not for the Jews, we would not have had the Scriptures to lead us to salvation and it is because of this that we have to return this same favor, to the nation of Israel.

    I do not profess to be one of the “know it alls” I have much to learn but have also learnt throughout the years that it is very important to discern whom one listens to, supports and what the agenda of the organization or person is one listens to and supports. I cannot just accept allegations made against people and organizations without looking into the matter myself. There are always two sides to a story. This is the same route I intended following with the ICEJ and Bridges For Peace.

    I have sent a couple of e-mails to Bridges For Peace as well as to the representatives of the ICEJ concerning documentation received by me, stating that the ICEJ welcomed the Pope to Jerusalem as well as that the ICEJ was asked to agree on not preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Jewish people they are bringing back to Israel. Unfortunately no one has returned a response to me.

    With your visit to South Africa and in particular to Bloemfontein, I attended the campaign, where your aim was to raise funds for the purpose of supporting the beloved people of God, Israel.

    I was pleased to hear that you said that the Catholics were involved in the extermination of 6 million Jews and that they basically supported Hitler and the Nazi regime, in the inhalation of God’s people. I was even more pleased to hear that your organization condemns Islam and their purpose, to wipe the Jews from the face of the earth, as so often proclaimed by the Muslim leaders and followers as promoted by the Quaran itself.

    It was in this light that I prayerfully considered speaking to you, after the assembly in Bloemfontein. I had to make sure what the ICEJ stands for, as I know two of families in Bloemfontein who are very dear friends of mine, who support your organization as well and only had good reports of your activities.

    I am sure you would recall the conversation we had, where I asked you if the ICEJ had extended an invitation to Pope John Paul 11, to visit Jerusalem. Your reply was that you are on the board of directors and a very important decision maker in matters like these, whereupon you emphatically stated that the ICEJ never invited the Pope to Jerusalem and that it was just a campaign, to blacklist your organization.

    On further investigation I was satisfied that you did not invite the Pope to Israel, but welcomed him on his visit, which did not make much sense to me but became clear later on, as you will notice later on in this letter.

    On my next question regarding the concern I had about preaching the gospel to the Jews in Israel, which to my understanding and information that I have, is that you are prohibited to do, your reply was a bit vague. Your first answer was that you minister to the Jews in various ways, and do not take the Gospel to them, but wait for them to ask you.

    It was at this stage that Darren, a Jewish youngster, interrupted our conversation to speak with you. When he had finished speaking to you, I asked you again if you preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Jews at which you became agitated with me. My conversation was never directed to Darren but to you alone. Unfortunately Darren got involved and rejected this Jesus I was speaking about, asking me how I would feel if someone came to preach Buddha to me. What this Jewish lad was saying is preaching Buddha to a Christian is the same as preaching Yeshua to the Jew. You agreed with this principle, by siding with Darren, thus putting Buddha on the same level as Yeshua.

    Needless to say I mentioned to you that the New Testament implores us to preach the Good News of the Messiah to the Jews. The New Testament’s message in the Word of Christ as well as the message Paul gives is to make disciples of all nations, especially to the Jew first, yet you disagreed saying this is insensitive and without love.

    Although it was unfortunate that Darren had to get involve at this stage, as I had no intention to speak to him, but to you alone, it however might have been a blessing in disguise, to reveal your true agenda. It was at this stage that it became obvious that you did not want to say anything about the Messiah, when Darren out rightly rejected Him and His teachings. After careful thought it became clear to me, that you compromised the message of Christ and even Christ Himself, to satisfy the remark he made on Buddha, thus making it clear that you do not bring the Gospel of Jesus to the Jews.

    It is because Darren said in your presence, that he does not believe in the Messiah or in the New Testament of the Christians and your refusal to say anything, that my immediate reaction was to try and explain in the difficult and short time the prophecies concerning Jesus in the Old Testament to him, which pointed to Yeshua, although I knew one would need much more time for this sort of thing. I also had to react because it was insulting statements made against, the Word of the only Redeemer and His very purpose of dying on the Cross. Keeping quiet would have shown either defeat or compromise to an anti- Christ statement as this.

    Your support in this regard to Darren was a shock to me as I am sure you may have noticed. Not once did you defend the Gospel and our Messiah, but instead contributed to the statements made by Darren, by saying that it was the Christians who killed the Jews, to which I answered no; it was the Catholics (The Vatican to be more specific in working with Hitler), to which you replied Martin Luther was an anti – Semitic Christian. Now no one needs to be a rocket scientist to figure out that Luther also had basic Catholic training and was subject to many ways of the Catholic doctrine, despite his thesis he presented. Instead of defending the Gospel of Christ, you rejected it, twisting an understanding into being and promoting the heresy that true Christians are murderers of Jews.

    Your accusation towards me; “You are only trying do prove something to yourself so that you may go out and tell others you had an opportunity to preach to a Jew” is naïve and totally unfounded. There are many people who can testify to the fact, that I do not pride myself in a personal capacity in preaching Jesus to anyone, after all it is a command as I see it, in the Scriptures.

    If this is what the train of thought is in your mind, then it would appear as if you yourself seem to be boastful in mentioning your multiple international travels, speaking to 18000 Indonesians etc. etc. Maybe this is proves why the late Col. Orde Debbie resigned from the ICEJ, as he could not identify with the extravagance of the expenditures on international programs. Money, which were to be used for evangelizing the Jews.

    Your attitude towards the prosperity teachers and your organization’s tolerance of the likes of Cerullo and Ulf Ekmann, as I have come to learn, suggests that you are no different to them. Your international travels are self-edifying and fleecing those who are unaware of your heretical purposes, nothing short of the true sign of being a Pharisee, exactly what you accused me of being, when I asked you two simple questions in an orderly manner.

    Apart from refusing to defend the faith, you never mentioned Jesus Christ once in your address to the gathering. Are you scared of offending the Jews? Paul and Jesus and the rest of the disciples were in constantly persecuted for this type of thing. Christ’s love exceeds the love of all of us, yet He refused to compromise in any way. He came to do the will of His Father and commanded us to do the same.

    What I find disturbing is that in a Country like South Africa and the rest of the world for that matter, most people seem to keep quiet when someone is on a podium and have a so called “stand” to say their say.” Yet when they are questioned on what they proclaim, (in my instance to gain more knowledge about your organization) they are without love, the Holy Spirit and insensitive, according to your accusation, directed at me. I found it foreign to Scriptures, where the Holy Spirit says in John 7:24 that we must judge with righteous judgment (A Command), that you became very antagonistic towards me when I asked you to address my concerns, regarding the ICEJ and its policies. As you told me who am I to judge, what you said. Even Paul in Acts 17 commended the Berean believers that they did not believe anything he said, but rather tested all Paul said against the Scriptures.

    I was sincerely hoping you would understand that I had heard and was sent information regarding the ICEJ and that I wanted to discuss this with you. This had a two way purpose, the first being to discern whether the statements against your organization was relevant and secondly, whether those who supplied this information about your organization irrelevant.

    Your comment, regarding the personal evangelizing of the Jews, was that the Holy Spirit does this work of salvation among the people of Israel and not man, is in total contradiction with Rom. 10:14 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

    In Isaiah 60:16 it is also clear that it is the gentiles who should bring the gospel to the Jews, not excluding the message as in Rom.11either.

    Paul and the Gospel of Christ say that the Holy Spirit will work through each believer to evangelize the nations of the world and the Jews the Good News. I do not take the workings and the amazing power of the Holy Spirit lightly and believe He is not to be limited by man, but nowhere do I get the message in the Scriptures (New Testament) that anyone mentions we should work without the Spirit and that we should not preach the Gospel because the Holy Spirit will do it on our behalf and not through us, only. Who did Jesus and Paul say must preach the Gospel, the Holy Spirit alone or the Holy Spirit through the believers? What I understand, is to explain the Scriptures prayerfully to the unbelieving and then the Holy Spirit will unlock their understanding. This action should be done in meekness and gentleness as I mentioned to you.

    You might as well then pack up your endeavors to feed them materially and let the Holy Spirit take care of this as well. After all what is more important, to feed them the Gospel of everlasting life or to feed them materially? Where are your priorities?

    Unfortunately you also became very personal and started accusing me of being without love and without the Holy Spirit in my heart. This is not surprising as this method is not uncommon to those who can’t prove a point from the Scriptures. As soon as a person attacks the personality of someone else, it is a sure sign that he has no more logical reasoning left to prove true and relevant facts from the Bible and that he has lost self-control, which is supposed to be one of the fruits of the Spirit.

    I dare also to ask, who are you to have discerned my heart, by saying that I do not have the Holy Spirit in my heart, I thought God is the One Who is a discerner of hearts, unless you are God off course? The Lord in His Word says by their fruits you will know them, but how is it possible that within about two minutes, you judged sentenced and condemned me. Yet you say I am judgmental and without love. Aren’t you contradicting yourself?

    During your speech you also mentioned that the Israeli nation will prosper again and pointed to the charismatic prospering preached in so many false religions as being “fine” With regard to the charismatic prospering which is a total heresy, I also do not see the Jewish nation prospering before the return of Christ as proclaimed by yourself. Only after the return of Christ, yes as it is prophesied in the Scriptures. Hence the Name Israel meaning “One who will rule as God” and the city of peace as described by the name Jerusalem. But to tell Israel that they are going to prosper in their land, while not mentioning the time of Jacob’s trouble, the prophecies regarding the fate of Israel in the last days as explained especially in the book of Daniel, Ezekiel 37 where it speaks of the restoration of Israel, (which started in 1917 and peaked in 1948), followed by a warning of Russia, Turkey, Eastern Europe, Iran and Libya attacking them, resulting in the warnings of Zechariah 12, 13 and 14, is dangerous and without love.

    I don’t want the Jews to suffer any more and would encourage people to warn them about the pending danger, which is clearly not too far away.

    Your mention, that Israel would experience a time of peace and safety is false and will only occur after the return of the Messiah when they will recognize Him Whom they have pierced. One of the ways in which to recognize Him is through the evangelizing Christians, which you shy away from.

    According to the New Testament there will be a time of peace and safety in the last days. But it does not agree with the peace and safety you are promoting, without Jacobs’ trouble first. This is a peace and safety ushered in by the anti- Christ. The peace and safety of;
    1Thess: 5:3: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    1Thess: 5:4: But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    1Thess: 5:5: Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    1Thess: 5:6: Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    1Thess: 5:7: For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

    Also the “peace and safety” of Dan. 8:25, Dan.9: 25 and Rev.6: 4. What peace and love are you really promoting, sir?

    You are getting them ready to meet their doom, a time when the anti-Christ will rule the world. They will be deceived once more through the type of gospel you are teaching.

    The Old Testament warns about false prophets promoting peace when there is no peace, as pointed out in Jer.6: 14, 8:11 and Ezek. 13:10.

    Jer: 6:14: They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. Is this not what is happening now?

    I know you said I must not mention Scriptures to you when we were in Bloemfontein, but I can’t resist, as this is the only source I rely on.

    In Zechariah 13:8- 9 The Word of God warns everyone; “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    I realize that Biblical prophecy is true and accurate and that God will use the gentiles to bring the Jews back to their land for the final conflict. But it seems that the very gentiles who are doing this are being deceived, in not issuing a warning as well as the Gospel of Christ with this action.

    There is nothing nobody can do to change these prophecies, but there are those who realize that being part of a prophecy and doing the will of the Lord, is better than being an instrument of the evil, waiting to take place by not proclaiming the Gospel pro-actively.

    As I see it, you are fulfilling prophecy in the Scriptures by assisting the Jews to get back into their land in the millions. The problem is that Jesus said no one will come to salvation without Him. Acts 4:12, 1Tim. 2:5 and obviously and equally important Isaiah 43:9 – 11. If they die without accepting the Messiah, what then? I am not able to pass judgment on whether God will save them or not, but according to the Scriptures, dying without the Savior is disastrous.

    Again I stress, bringing the Jews back to Israel to get killed in a time of Jacob’s Trouble without giving them the Messiah, does not sound Scriptural enough to me, but rather as another Holocaust.

    Nowhere do I find the love you so graciously promote. As with your connections with the Pope, and ecumenism, you are being deceived by the devil himself to wipe out what is left of Israel. Where is the love you accused me of not having? If you love the Jews, please preach Yeshua to them!

    At one stage in your speech, you condemn the Vatican and the Catholics but on the other hand, welcome the Pope to Jerusalem! This is not surprising, because the Bible says that there will be those who oppose themselves.

    The information I have with me regarding the ICEJ welcoming Pope John Paul II to Jerusalem which was downloaded from your website, does not agree with your statements concerning the Pope, unless you are ignorant of the agenda the Vatican and Islam has.

    Please refer to the attachment I have included. In this article your organization states the following, and I quote; “We recognize that Pope John Paul II has done more to promote reconciliation with the Jewish faith than perhaps all previous popes combined, as his personal witness of the Holocaust kindled a life-long, genuine attachment to the Jews.”

    If you look at the other attachment I have included, this same Pope kisses the Quran a book and religion that says kill the Jew and the Christian. Surely you are busy with another Jesus, another Gospel and another Spirit as Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 11:4 and you tolerate it!

    As usual I do not expect to hear from you, as you must be quite furious by now, but I am always open to hear from you. This, the Scriptures also tell me: Gal: 4:16: Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

    Why did I write this to you? Because of what Paul says: Tit: 1:10: For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision:
    Tim: 1:11: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.

    Coming with a message of peace and prosperity to gain funds, to help with the eventual gathering of the Jews in the exact small area where everyone of their enemies want them, making it easier to wipe them off the face of this planet forever and that without their Messiah. But fortunately God will intervene and will cause some to be saved. I would not like to give account to God for the cause you are busy with.

    I am glad that I never financially supported you, and will be forwarding a request to be removed from all your mailing lists.

    I am forwarding this letter to many other people and would encourage them to be like the Bereans in Acts 17, to discern before they act. Maybe rather to support the Jews for Jesus or an organization like Open Doors, naturally, with the proper discernment.

    I thank God for those who put themselves on the line to minister the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Jews and have the Holy Spirit use them for His service.

    If your reaction in Bloemfontein was not to put Jesus in the same light, as Buddha and you were more accommodating at answering my concerns satisfactorily, the scales might have tipped in your favor, instead what I heard, saw and experienced was antagonism and unholy behavior, on your part.

    I deem everything discussed in Bloemfontein with you and your reactions as being true as mentioned in this letter, my word is my word and my yea is my yea. I also have witnesses who were present me at the time.

    Once again, my prayer is that God will open your eyes to the serous and extreme importance, of taking the right Gospel of our Lord and Savoir to the Jews, before bringing them to the time of Jacob’s Trouble, to make them understand the difference between His second coming and His first and not just being another instrument in the hands of Satan to have them killed without Jesus, which is exactly what the Popes and Islam has always done and will do again.

    The fact that you “hide” the Jesus of the New Covenant brings to mind the following Scriptures;

    Joh: 2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
    1Joh: 2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    1Joh: 2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    1Joh: 2:24: Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    In the love and total commitment of His Service, willing to be martyred for His Names sake.

    Chris De Wet.

  • Sonja

    Guys, we often critize fellow Believers! Stop looking at other’s
    faults and wrong doings and focus on God!!! The biggest gift you
    can give someone is to pray for them! EVEN IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THEM!
    We are brothers and sisters in God, we are all His children!
    Start praying that with every Believer gathering God to be present in all
    His Might and Glory and that He will protect each gathering. And if you feel
    it is not from Him = PRAY!!! Talk to Him, we are in no position to judge.
    Goodness, the world is evil enough, lets pray for one another!
    Blessings in His Name to all!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sonja

    What makes you think we have not prayed for Angus Buchan to change his ways and stop following false doctrine!
    You are more concerned with Angus than the millions of people he is leading astray. Shame on you!
    What will you answer to God one day when He asks you why you took his side and lambased the one warning the sheep. But you judge my intentions instead.
    Angus is NOT a fellow believer, if he was he would be preaching the TRUTH, but he is not, he is preaching a false doctrine.
    Your false love sickens me.

  • Sonja

    [deleted by DTW – no Sonja, it’s the other way around, you hate us for exposing the truth.]

  • Carm

    Sonja, we do know them: we know them by their fruit.

    Of course we are commanded to judge:

    Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

    Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)

    So how do you propose we MARK and AVOID someone?

  • Chris De Wet

    Sonja to judge is perfectly legitimate and it is a command in the Bible.

    I was also under the impression not to judge earlier as a believer – especially when reading :
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
    Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
    Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    The Greek word used here for judge is “Hypocretes” which means not to be a hypocrite. That is to say that if you are guilty of something you may not judge a fellow believer for the same thing. For example if I steal I am in no position to judge you if you also steal. Instead the Lord tells us in verse 5 to first get rid of that which we do THEN we will be able to judge – by taking the beam out of our own eye FIRST THEN we will see clearly to cast out the mote of a brother or sister’s eye. It does not say not to judge at all.

    That is why we should be as blameless as possible and that is why according to instruction to Timothy and Titus all Bishops who are appointed should be blameless – so that they could apply disciplinary measures in the church. It is impossible to apply disciplinary measures in the church without this judgment and when someone does he or she must not be guilty of the same sin.

    Paul applied discipline in the church – was he wrong in Judging?

    If judging is wrong then God’s precious Word opposes itself – is that possible?

    Here are some Scriptures you would want to consider:

    1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (Why is he judged of no man – because he is spiritual and judges himself to be blameless in all things then nobody would be in a position to judge him)

    1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?(This had to do with adultery in the congregation -Paul rebuked the Corinthians who did not judge the situation and even get rid of the person who was guilty)

    Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.(We may not judge without using God’s Word and ordinances but we are to judge accoring to His instructions)

    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.(Wev are to test all things otherwise we might be mislead)

    1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. (Why? beacsue of the false prophets – otherwise how will you be able to identify a false prophet?)

    Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? (We are living in the last days – yet there are those who say nobody must discern (judge) the times and the signs. These wre the words of the Lord Himself)

    Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.(Laeving the weightier things such as judgment was not pleasin to the Lord and is in the charackter of a Pharisee)

    Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. (how is it possible to stop their mouths without judging or discerning?)

    1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    No! we are INSTRUCED to judge especially in the last days when deception increases otherwise we will be deceived.

    God bless

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> The ICEJ has proven to be an organization whereby no pro-active evangelisation to the Jews are permitted. Instead they are instructed to wait until a Jew asks them questions regarding the Messiah.

    Unbelievable. No wonder the stage crew who were Jews did not run for an ‘alter call’, instead just told everyone to get back to their seats. The Jews present where not one bit in the least concerned with the whole situation.

    So this ICEJ is nothing but an ecumenical money making machine disguised under the label to ‘spread the gospel to the Jews’.

    New World Order church it is…

  • Chris De Wet

    Here is some more info regarding the ICEJ to be found on: reply-to-international-christian-embassy-jerusalem

    This letter was written by Jacob Prasch in 2011 – he however warned against the ICEJ a very long time ago!

    MAY 27TH, 2011
    This entry posted by MORIELDANNY
    Reply to International Christian Embassy Jerusalem
    May 27th, 2011 – London (UK)

    To : Jennifer Goddard and Jurgen Buhler

    International Christian Embassy Jerusalem

    Greetings in Yeshua and thank you for your e mail.

    As a believer in born again believer in Yeshua with an Israeli-Jewish family and a son who served in combat in the IDF (my own service was brief), it is indeed my prayer that the Lord will give ICEJ eyes to see that our Jewish people are perishing without a saving faith in the Messiah Yeshua, that Israel is heading to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble to make a covenant with death by a treaty with the Antichrist, and that the Talmudic Judaism of the rabbis rejecting Yeshua is a false religion.

    Obviously I and our ministry Moriel vigorously and actively oppose Antisemitism, Replacement Theology, and anti-Zionism as a visit to our website proves. Yet witholding the Gospel from Jewish people on their way to hell without it is not the love of Jesus; God will require their blood from our hands (Acts 20:26, Ezekiel 33:8).

    I do not say or believe that all believers are called to evangelize in a high profile way, but we are all called to evangelize. Local believers in Israel should share the Good News of Yeshua actively and ex-patriot organizations should do it in a discreet, low-key manner. But making agreements with the Israeli government and rabbis to not share Yeshua at all, published policies of not sharing Yeshua to Jews, or subscribing to the heresy of Dual Covenant Theology murders Jews spiritually just as Nazis and Islamic terrorists murder them physically. To withhold the only true message of hope and salvation in Yeshua is anti-Semitic in itself. The view that falsely claims that God will save them through the witness of our actions only without our words is a deception. Israel and the Jews must both see action and hear words; God’s Word declares, “How will they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14).

    Malcom Hedding’s ‘Tabernacles’ false teaching that “Jesus never came to die” is a lie of Satan as was your founder Van Der Hoven’s false teaching I have seen on video at a Morris Cerullo crusade, stating that Christians are only called to comfort Israel not evangelize them. A reading of Isaiah 40 in context proves categorically that the manner God commands to comfort them is with the Gospel—”Besora” (Isaiah 40:1, 9).

    Frankly, the long and shameful history of scandal that has defined the ICEJ with the deposition of Van Der Hoven, then Lukoff, etc. is nothing short of a disgrace and is why decent people involved with ICEJ at the begining such as Col. Orde Dobbie, the Watsons in Canada and Dr. Michael Harry pulled away from it. I know or knew all of them and they all told the same sad story.
    By all means, bless Israel and oppose anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in these treacherous times, and may God bless you richly for doing it. Stand also firmly against the false doctrine of Replacement Theology in the church. But above all, Israel and the Jews need Yeshua desperately. As the International Director of Jews For Jesus David Brickner wrote and published: “True Christian Zionists are unrepentant evangelists to the Jews; the others are fakes and phonies”. He is right.

    I write this letter in a spirit of Christian love as I appreciate all who love Israel and the Jews. I trust you will be able to accept this letter in the spirit in which it is intended. It is not my aim to attack you personally or cause any undue offense, but I must attempt to speak the truth in love.

    Sincerely In Jesus,

    J. Jacob Prasch
    Moriel Ministries

    “Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.” (Rom. 10:1)

  • Estelle

    Thanks for the good article Deborah. :)
    I feel bad for these people (Angus etc.) that are so corrupted by their “extra-biblical” beliefs, but even more sad about the sheep following them. It’s as if they read the Bible in the way they want to (own interpretation)…believe what they want to believe, probably to feel better about themselves or something.

    I also believe that suffering and sickness that a believer experience always have a greater purpose and fits in somewhere into God’s will for us. Seeking healing from a healer is like making an idol or god of that person, where people go to him or her instead of going to God in prayer and waiting patiently for God’s true healing.

    God’s true healing for me doesn’t always mean physical healing, he heals our spirit and our sin to ultimately be with Him in heaven where there will be no more suffering or illness.
    (Hope I make sense)

    Deborah, do you still have that “blou rokkies” article I sent you long ago… I think the latter rain beliefs and those of the blou rokkies fits in to almost everything that Angus and the others believe.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Estelle

    >> do you still have that “blou rokkies” article I sent you long ago… I think the latter rain beliefs and those of the blou rokkies fits in to almost everything that Angus and the others believe.

    Ja, I must look for that… somewhere in my billion email inbox haha ;)

    [EDITED by DTW: Ahhh taa for the email!!]

  • Martin Horan

    Yet again a brilliant reply, Deborah.

    I’m getting to the point where I’m no longer amazed by them. I’m beginning to expect them and would be surprised if they weren’t spot on.

    I have a friend who gave me a book by Angus Buchan. It depressed me that my friend was falling for that stuff. But he is constantly chasing after signs and wonders and refuses to read anything that contradicts his paradigms. So I was glad to read your incisive and Scriptural reply.

    When I read Sonja’s first comment I was about to mention that there are only two kinds of criticism: Criticism that is true, which is right and therefore fair; and criticism that is untrue which is wrong and therefore unfair. I was also going to make a few other points after I’d first moved on to read your, Carm’s and Chris’ replies. They mostly dealt with things I’d planned to say.

    (If either of of you gyts are looking in, thanks for your comments. I found them encouraging. They helped me to see I am not alone! I also feel this when I read Deborah’s articles.)

    I’d just like to say to Chris: I too love the Jews and Israel and have been close enough to some that I’ve even had Jews trying to get me to convert to Judaism. I wanted to do so when younger, knowing what “Christians” had done to Jews throughout history. I couldn’t imagine any Jew wanting to become a Christian. The very thought appalled me as the worst kind of treachery. Please remember I had been educated as a Catholic! But I had also come over some vile anti-Semitic statements by Protestants too. So I can sympathize to an extent with Jews who see Jesus as their enemy though I know they are wrong. I had more or less the same idea when I was younger. I became a Christian when I found a group that was pro-Jewish and pro-Israel which I joined. Then I read the works of various writers who were pro-Jews and identified that anti-Semites were false Christians.

    The sad thing is, this Christians Embassy group–I’ve never heard of them before–mean well but they are creating problems for Israel specifically and Jews generally. Thanks for letting me know about them. It’s something I can pray about. Antisemitism is spreading like wildfire these days and Jews everywhere do need to be encouraged and know that they have real friends.
    John Hagee’s pretty much the same as these Christian Embassy folk. I know people who think Hagee’s wonderful. His love of Israel, unfortunately, makes him overlook the greater picture. He too does not think Jews are to be evangelized. Strange how the apostles disagreed with that idea.

    Well, I just wanted to thank folk for their comments. It was all another education. Thanks.

  • Robbie

    Debs said

    >>You have said something that I have been thinking for a long time.<<
    Me too. I am sure he was planted.

    Sonja.
    I really hope you will do your own research too. Hiding the truth for the sake of peace is worse that lying. It is called deception.
    But we got so use to do just that.

    I dare you to stop paying the likes of Angus and other pastors to read the Word for you and dig in yourself. Switch on Sonja!!.

    I have a very close relative stuck in that camp…

  • Werner

    Debs, please don’t apologize, was just dotting down how I understand it – but as always I’m open for correction..I’m but a frail man…Spiros Zodiathes, which I respect and hold dear to, says the tongues in Cor are ecstatic tongues according to the Greek (he is Greek and a Greek scholar as well), but yet not biblical..anyhow – keep fighting the good fight! In the whole of the bible as we are to read it and view it, we know what tongues are and are not.

  • Chris De Wet

    Hallo Werner.

    I also have Spiros Zodaites’s King James Hebrew – Greek Kay Word Study Bible as well as the Logos Bible Essentials software, but his footnotes are not all correct.

    We did a study regarding the tongues issue and also came to the conclusion that it is descriptive of a language.

    Even looking at what Paul calls the language of angels made me think that throughout the Bible where angels brought messages from God the message was plainly in the language directed to the specific audience
    I recall no place in the Bible where angels addressed people where an interpreter was requested.

    So people who say that the angelic language Paul spoke was a heavenly language do not have concrete proof that it was some or various ecstatic languages.

  • Werner

    Hi Chris, I guess or rather I know none of us have it spot-on, and those who say they do, well – we should run from them too.

    Although simple, and it took me a few years to see, your observation is correct I believe, as for many things in Scripture – not all are explained, and we dare not make assumptions, rather explain the the unclear with the clear, and if there is no more clear, then we should not go into guess work.

    God does not want us to know everything…for one, if tongues were soooo important, and sooo spiritual, then surely Jesus and the rest of the N.T would have said so, but the Scriptures are silent on this, for obvious reasons, it is man who have crafted sinister doctrines to promote their own selfish beliefs.

    God bless

  • Steve

    sorry, just read most of your article, and it is filled with errors, assumptions and what I am hoping, simple mistakes…

    you say, ‘i dont see the Holy Spirit being destructive’

    ok, when the Spirit destroys cancer, what is that?

    secondly,

    Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

    the Holy Spirit is representing Jehovah on earth, and as I read that, it appears to me, God killed those people for lying… pretty destrutive for them I thought.

    yes, there is so much nonsense in the ‘church’, or entities calling themselves the church, but the ability to make a blog and challenge people… ? let me put it another way, the Lord said, (paraphrase), ‘look at the works’ …

    ‘became to do and teach’ (acts 1)

    without the doing, miracles, healing, deliverances etc, what we have is an empty powerless gospel, so i ask any christian or truth-seeker or whatever your title is, if you are challenging things, are you demonstrating the gifts and the fruits of the Spirit, or just teaching and talking?

    take care and stay safe

    Steve

  • Steve

    Regarding healing, and reading some of the comments…..

    People came to Jesus for healing; Jesus said the following

    John14:12-14
    Mark9:23
    Matthew8:19
    Luke10:19

    having experienced miraculous healing repeatedly in my own life, by God Himself, I urge people to stop coming up with reasons to turn christiantity into a theology or doctrines or studying greek etc etc…..the Lord has so much more for those who will believe Him; but ‘believing Him’ isnt hoping or being nice or anything like that…… this article is loaded with errors, and while I am sure there is a lot of good on this website, without the Spirit, it is all ‘dead letter’ – take care and stay safe

    Steve

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steve

    >> you say, ‘i dont see the Holy Spirit being destructive’
    >> ok, when the Spirit destroys cancer, what is that?

    I would say that is a silly comment. Chemotherapy destroys cancer cells too, does that mean Chemotherapy can destroy stages as well? Your logic is non compos mentis. Finally it is Jesus Christ that HEALS, not the Holy Spirit.

    >> God killed those people for lying… pretty destrutive for them I thought.

    Yes you said it, God killed then, not the Holy Spirit.

    I gave an exhaustive list in the article as to what the Holy Spirit does and does not do from the bible. You come along and quote scripture out of context and attribute things to the Holy Spirit that should not be. If you are going to comment, please read properly before you comment.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steve

    You contract yourself from your first comment. In your first comment you say the Holy Spirit heals. I said, “Jesus Christ heals”. Now in this comment you say…”People came to Jesus for healing” Can you make up your mind as to who heals? Jesus or the Holy Spirit? Well I said it before, Jesus Christ heals.

    >> having experienced miraculous healing repeatedly in my own life,

    You are either talking nonsense, or you have been healed repeatedly, but not by Jesus Christ, but by the Kundalini spirit who masquerades as the Holy Spirit in today’s churches and has great satanic healing power. The Biblical Holy Spirit vs.The False Unholy Spirit of Fire

    I am deleting the rest of your comments, they are utter nonsense.

  • Estelle

    Steve wrote:

    having experienced miraculous healing repeatedly in my own life

    The word repeatedly already makes it not true healing.
    The people who were healed by Jesus were HEALED and never came back for more healing?

    There are multiple examples of suffering or people who God did not heal.

    Take Paul for example leaving Trophimus while he was sick. 2 Timothy 4:20

    Paul himself in 2 Corinthians 12:7 talks about the thorn in the flesh asking God to let it depart from him, God’s reply was “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.”

    James and many more were killed by the sword, Isaiah was probably sawn in half. Hebrews 11:37

    Look at David who was suffering. Psalm 22 & 41
    Psalm 22:
    “6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
    7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
    8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
    15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
    you lay me in the dust of death.
    16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet
    17 I can count all my bones—they stare and gloat over me;
    18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.

    Psalm 41:
    8 They say, “A deadly thing is poured out on him; he will not rise again from where he lies.”
    9 Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who late my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
    10 But you, O Lord, be gracious to me, and raise me up, that I may repay them!

    Some scriptures regarding healing:
    James 5 v 15: And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

    2 Cor 1 v 3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction.

    2 Cor 4 v 16: So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. 17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,

    1 Peter 4 v 19: Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good

    1 Peter 5 v 10: And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. 11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

    2 Thess 1 v 5: This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering

    What would be the purpose of God giving us comfort, sending the Holy Spirit as our comforter if we all could just be miraculously healed physically? I did not even mention Jobs’ suffering…
    All of us will go trough afflictions, troubles, suffering and trials but we have Jesus as our Blessed Hope and the Holy spirit as our comforter and we have faith in our God… as we know the time of suffering is short.

  • Michael

    Steve wrote…”without the doing, miracles, healing, deliverances etc, what we have is an empty powerless gospel,

    Gosh…some people either miss the point completely or they take Jesus’s dying on the cross lightly? The Lord Jesus Christ came to save sinners from ETERNAL DEATH and give them a chance to repent and accept Him as Lord and Saviour and give them ETERNAL LIFE instead of spending eternity (thats for ever and ever} in a place called HELL. That’s not a nice place to be…being a condemned prisoner on death row must be paradise compared to this.

    And you call it “empty and powerless”…salvation alone is enough to get excited about and if preached correctly turns the individual receiver inside out. Healings, signs and sensationalism and ear tickling is NOT the gospel.

    That is the whole point!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steve wrote…”without the doing, miracles, healing, deliverances etc, what we have is an empty powerless gospel,”

    This is what the bible says in answer to your statement…

    The Pharisees and scribes said, “Show us a sign. Prove who you are.” But Jesus answered them with…

    Matt 16:4
    4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Matt 12:39; Luke 11:29; Jonah 1:17)

    because…

    John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    1Pet 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

    2Cor 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight

  • Chris De Wet

    Steve wrote: “I urge people to stop coming up with reasons to turn christiantity into a theology or doctrines or studying greek etc etc”

    This is problematic because Christians are INSTRUCTED to study to find themselves approved by the very Word of God: 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Maybe Steve should try studying the Bible in order to better discern between what is good and what is evil – also Biblical: Heb 5:13- 14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    Concerning doctrines – the Bible teaches:

    1. One should discern false doctrine an separate from it – 1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2. One should take heed of doctrine – 1Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    3. Be nourished in good doctrine – 1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
    4. Stay within correct doctrine – Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers
    5. Plus- 2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    6. Obey doctrine – Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    Follow the doctrine of the LORD not those who say ‘do not give heed to doctrine’ –
    Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
    Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

    There are many more Scriptures teaching and instructing us to abide in the right doctrine and to avoid wrong doctrine.

    Wrong doctrine will cause division from true believers -Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    Concerning Theology:
    “Theos” is the Greek word for God – hence understanding Greek.
    Theology is to study everything about God derived from the Greek.

    Maybe Steve should consider studying the Scriptures for him to find sound doctrine and to have a better understanding of theology????

  • christine

    Sorry that it is the first time i see this article I personally think all off you who are going on about what are the truth and what not ,I really feel sorry for you to speak about a man of God like Angus the way you are speaking.And before you try to say I am a follower off him I would like to tell you I am not I listen to some of his sermons when It comes my way.Whatever happens to him and whatever he experienced is none of your busineses if it is true or not who are you to decide it which manner God will appear to anyone or how He will minister to somebody or how he will let the Holy Ghost fall upon His people .All I pick up amongst you all is that you are jealous start living a live like he do maybe just maybe you will be lucky to experience something so supernatural which happened to him.I also hope you do not call yourself children of God because children of God will watch their mouths and first consult God if your opinion are the right opinion christians like you are making me so sick I want to puke.I wonder what makes you think that your doctrine are right we can all take scripture and do with whatever suits us .Then another thing Mr Chris you are accusing Angus of being part of th newe world order I think you cannot stand to see how much God has blessed him and that is why you say such things poor you I rather take my chances listening to angus preaching rather listening to you because if a man like you can critize a man of God like you do I shiffer to think what you can say about all your brothers and sisters in Christ ask God to search you heart and to work with you on the way He prefers to work with yoy and leave people that have supernatural experiences alone .I do not think you understand it I think you are living under the law I will pray for you ande everybody else on this site that had something to say about this article.

  • christine

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Steve
    Hi Deborah another thing what akes you so full of the spirit that you and your friends are the only right ones that you even have the decency to delete other peoples comments everbody has the right to their own opinion your people are spriritually so fat that you are earthly no good..

  • christine

    Martin Horan wrote:

    Yet again a brilliant reply, Deborah.
    I’m getting to the point where I’m no longer amazed by them. I’m beginning to expect them and would be surprised if they weren’t spot on.
    I have a friend who gave me a book by Angus Buchan. It depressed me that my friend was falling for that stuff. But he is constantly chasing after signs and wonders and refuses to read anything that contradicts his paradigms. So I was glad to read your incisive and Scriptural reply.
    When I read Sonja’s first comment I was about to mention that there are only two kinds of criticism: Criticism that is true, which is right and therefore fair; and criticism that is untrue which is wrong and therefore unfair. I was also going to make a few other points after I’d first moved on to read your, Carm’s and Chris’ replies. They mostly dealt with things I’d planned to say.
    (If either of of you gyts are looking in, thanks for your comments. I found them encouraging. They helped me to see I am not alone! I also feel this when I read Deborah’s articles.)
    I’d just like to say to Chris: I too love the Jews and Israel and have been close enough to some that I’ve even had Jews trying to get me to convert to Judaism. I wanted to do so when younger, knowing what “Christians” had done to Jews throughout history. I couldn’t imagine any Jew wanting to become a Christian. The very thought appalled me as the worst kind of treachery. Please remember I had been educated as a Catholic! But I had also come over some vile anti-Semitic statements by Protestants too. So I can sympathize to an extent with Jews who see Jesus as their enemy though I know they are wrong. I had more or less the same idea when I was younger. I became a Christian when I found a group that was pro-Jewish and pro-Israel which I joined. Then I read the works of various writers who were pro-Jews and identified that anti-Semites were false Christians.
    The sad thing is, this Christians Embassy group–I’ve never heard of them before–mean well but they are creating problems for Israel specifically and Jews generally. Thanks for letting me know about them. It’s something I can pray about. Antisemitism is spreading like wildfire these days and Jews everywhere do need to be encouraged and know that they have real friends.
    John Hagee’s pretty much the same as these Christian Embassy folk. I know people who think Hagee’s wonderful. His love of Israel, unfortunately, makes him overlook the greater picture. He too does not think Jews are to be evangelized. Strange how the apostles disagreed with that idea.
    Well, I just wanted to thank folk for their comments. It was all another education. Thanks.

    Shame Martin poor you just one word you would like to be like John Hagee if you know Gods word as well as you say Gods word say do not touch my annointed ones and for your infromation John Hagee and Angus are Gods annointed ones stop be jealous.

  • Estelle

    Hi Christene,
    maybe you should read this article, regarding the anointed / anointing…

    ————–

    When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

    Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.” And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others were mocking and saying, “They are full of sweet wine.”

    But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

    ‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ GOD SAYS,
    ‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
    AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
    AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
    AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
    EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
    I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
    AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY.
    AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
    AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
    BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
    THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
    AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
    BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
    AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’
    “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. For David says of Him,

    ‘I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;
    FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
    THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;
    MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
    BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
    NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
    YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
    YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’
    “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT ONE OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID HIS FLESH SUFFER DECAY. This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

    ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
    “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
    UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’
    “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

    Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

  • Chris

    Christine it is not surprising to see the way in which you react. I did the same when I was still ignorant of facts regarding people like Angus. Yes, and I also listened to many of Angus’s sermons and agree that 99,9% of his sermons are accurate and quite applicable.

    But unfortunately the danger lies in what he does not tell his audiences. The trouble or deception is not always in what one preaches but in what one does not preach or say.

    I hope sincerely that Angus is ignorant of whom he associates with rather than doing this on purpose. If he is ignorant of the whiles of the organizations and people he associates with there is hope for recovery if not then he is in trouble with the Lord.

    When looking at your replies I recognise that you are fortunately one of the ignorant ones as you have criticized without mentioning ONE Bible verse or any other relevant facts regarding for example the International Christian Embassy of Jerusalem. So there is still a chance for you to discern between what is really right or wrong.

    AS you may have noticed many of us have in person inquired from these people personally to make sure we understand their errors and have not argued without making sure of the facts before responding. (This arguable is better than your criticisms as you do not know us at all and have never had any civil discussion with us regarding for example the issue at hand)
    Jealous of Angus????? Well let’s see the Bible says: That the Gospel must be preached to the Jews, but Angus associates with people who say the opposite and who signed an agreement with the Knesset where they agree not to spread the Gospel to the Jews proactively. I will never be jealous of one opposing God’s word – rather VERY CONCERNED.

    Who must I believe Angus or the Bible? I know……l’ll believe the Bible – you believe whatever you want to but remember you will have to explain that to God one day……. not too fat off.
    If people are ignorant there is hope for recovery by getting informed. Rather look at this as relevant information – go do your homework and decide before shooting from the hip.

    It is not everyone who preaches that one may trust: 2Co 11:13 for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 and no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

  • E Hovell

    I am so sad to see how Angus is leading innocent people away from the Truth. We pray he will see the error of his ways.

  • Martin Horan

    Christine, I suggest you read the Bible properly before you accuse another Christian.

    The Bible calls the devil “the accuser of the brethren” [Rev 12:10]. People are actually doing doing the devil’s dirty work when they falsely accuse Christians. Shame on THEM when they do that!
    We are told in the Bible that people twist Scriptures to their own DESTRUCTION [2 Peter 3:16]. So I suggest before you quote Scriptures that you read properly what they really say and not read into them anything that they do not say.

    When the Bible says do not touch my anointed ones it says exactly that, no more, no less. I have not TOUCHED John Hagee. In fact, I have done what the Bible actually does tell me to do: viz., earnestly contend for the faith once delivered [Jude 3]. So I obey God when I do contend for the faith.

    If you do not understand what the word CONTEND actually means, I suggest you go to an English dictionary and check that word before you make accusations [1 Thess 5:21].
    Also, when I read the writings of John Hagee or any other Christian, or even pseudo-Christian, writer it is incumbent upon me to obey that last Scripture I’ve quoted; and also 1 John 4:1. (These Scriptures are in the imperative verb which means I have no option but to obey them. That, by God’s grace, I try to do.) I would encourage any Christian to do the same. If they think they can pick and chose Scriptures as they like then they are greatly mistaken [2 Tim 3:16].

    Some people choose first to go to men for teaching but I choose to go to Scripture before any man. In the New Testament Christians are commended for identifying false apostles and wolves in sheep’s clothing. How do you suppose they manage to do so?

    Acts 17:11 tells us that the Bereans were noble because they did just that. As a former Catholic I did as most people in cults (and those who follow false teachers and false apostles) do: I listened to men whose words did not tie up with Scripture.

    Dave Hunt excellently sums up that cultist mentality:
    “Satan’s claim that he alone had the correct interpretation of what God said (to Adam and Eve) is the foundation of every cult. Those who join a cult do so because its perverted interpretation of Scripture appeals to them. Appealing too is the fact that its leader decides and dictates what every member should believe and do. Cultists mistakenly imagine that by submission to absolute authority, whether guru, pastor or pope, they can escape personal responsibility to God. Self-interest motivates the members of any cult. Whoever truly loves God, however, will be delivered from self-deception” (How Close Are We?).

    And as to touching God’s anointed which you will find in 1 Sam 26:9-11, 1 Chron 16:22; Ps 105:15, &c, it is from the Hebrew “Mashiyach” and applies to a consecrated Old Testament king, priest or even the Messiah Hiimself. Hopefully, you do not put John Hagee on any of those levels.

    If you check where “anointed” is used in the New Testament, you will find that it has nothing to do with the context of pastors or ministers–especially would-be ones.
    To accept what any man says above the word of God is to put a man above God’s word. That is, in my mind, idolatry. It is also doing what cult members do and is done because it appeals to what the hearer wants to hear rather than deduce objectively. If you see John Hagee as God’s anointed, it’s your affair.

    I certainly don’t even see him as a sound teacher because he claims that Jews do not need to be converted.

    If you believe he is correct on that point, perhaps you can explain to me what Peter and Paul were doing preaching the Gospel to the Jews. Why did Jesus command His apostles to first go through Israel preaching the Good News?

    The Jewish people who are very dear to my heart need the Gospel as much as Gentiles. Messianic Jews know that and disagree with Hagee.

    To tell Jews that they do not need to be saved is not Scriptural. The Jews have suffered and will go through the Great Tribulation until they see The Messiah at His Return and mourn for Him. So for John Hagee to say that Jews do not need to have Christ is foolishness at best and heresy at worst.

    I cannot read Mr Hagee’s heart and I know he has a great love for the Jews. However, he is not doing God’s Chosen People a favour by his unscriptural teachings and he needs to be corrected.

    We all need to be corrected, Christine, and that applies to me as much as anyone. I do not mind being corrected. Indeed, I welcome it. But I only welcome it if it is backed by Scripture. If it is not, I reject it.

    May God bless you in your searching the Scriptures. John 5:39 will explain why.

  • Raiha Marsden

    If this website ‘discerningtheworld’ spent as much time on their knees praying for others as they do criticising and judging, than perhaps this world might be a better place.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Raiha

    >> If this website ‘discerningtheworld’ spent as much time on their knees praying for others as they do criticising and judging, than perhaps this world might be a better place.

    Are you saying that if I alone spent more time in prayer this world would be a better place? Are you saying that if I tried harder I could be a little god?

    No Raiha, the world is the way it is because the Bible prophesied it will go this way, that the end times will come, that people will turn away from Jesus Christ and follow after false teaching and run after false teachers, and in the end accept the anti-Christ instead. That people/Christians included will become lovers of themselves and believe they have a Christ consciousness; a little god ideology.

  • R. L. Becky

    [deleted by DTW – I love how people tell me how unloving I am for exposing false teaching and how wrong I am (even after quoting scripture) and they say these things to me in the most UNLOVING way, yet they try coat it with sugar. People with forked tongues attack me personally because they can’t back up their false gospel with scripture.]

  • Chris

    It is always like that. People will nail you personally yet no Scripture will be mentioned what so ever.

    As you rightly said also these people accuse you of being judgmental yet they do the same.

    In John’s gospel we read to judge with righteous judgment and that we do by judging according to what is written, yet these people judge according to their own understanding.
    To most of these folks that judge like this, everyone who comes along and preaches something looking like what is biblical must be correct and they NEVER study the Word to discern what is right and wrong.

    In the last days we are warned to be very careful and as Jesus Himself told the disciples to watch out for being deceived. Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    Deception does not take place without a thing by which one is deceived. As someone once told me, with deception one will always find REAL cheese in a RAT TRAP.

    This is what Peter also warned about and that is to be careful of the real cheese:

    2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    Think on this for a while: False prophets amongst believers and then they bring in damnable heresies with misleading words and MANY not might but SHALL follow them.

    Apart from being ignorant of the Word I do not think that these deceived persons will be stupid hence them having to be DECEIVED with real “cheese” or preaching from the gospel.

    This warning was given to Timothy by Paul for the last days: 2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

    If one looks at the people Angus is rubbing shoulders with and those who he is quoting in many of his sermons, then I can only come to the conclusion that he has been deceived by deceivers and we have to take heed not to be deceived by him.

    Peter warned that false prophets will use “REAL cheese” hence deception otherwise they will not be able to deceive.

    It is IMPORTANT to know of the concept of “Pareisago”: In 2 Peter2:1 we find the concept of “ privily bringing in…” this concept used here is “Pareisago” which basically means in context, to preach mostly truth but next to the truth there is something sinister that will cause people to be led astray.

    Much of what Angus preaches is true…………but next to this there is leaven.

    Remember a little leaven leavens the whole bread. It grows and grows as we follow the preacher who comes with much of what is true. We become complacent and when we look again we have departed from the doctrine of the Lord Jesus and gave His warnings no remembrance to follow deceivers rather than the Lord.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    I found the following video (see bottom of article) of Angus at the Dead Sea, at Ein Gedi. It appears that Angus asks God for a repeat of what happened at Pentecost! That is not what he said in his newsletter above. Imagine that.

  • Louis

    Hi, I would like to leave a comment or two.
    I was fortunate to got invited to go along with a group of men to the last mighty men conference in 2010, before that I was married, had a 9 month old son, but I was a bad husband, I wasn’t a father to my son, I had no relationship of any kind with God, but on that Friday night 16/4/2010, God had an appointment with me, using the man I look up to as a mighty man of God, Angus Buchan, he preach that Friday night and really, I can’t remember a lot but, what I can remember was that the Holy Spirit was there and that God saved my life that evening, He saved my marriage and a lot more and He used Angus Bughan as a tool to save me.

    I was born again on that Friday evening at an event where there were more than 300,000 men, that is a God miracle on its own.

    I read the letter that Angus have sent to his mailing list on the 4th of October re the encounter with the Holy Spirit in Isreal at the Dead Sea, and yesterday I watch the video on youtube, both instances I just got tears in my eyes and that usually happens when God pitches, so yes there is a lot of doctrine etc. and I am only a christian for just over two years and I don’t know the bible by a long shot.

    But what I know is that: If Jesus was borne today, and he had to gather is 12 disciples like in the bible, that would have probably be 12 local fisherman from the west coast of our country, rough diamonds, and He would have used them to teach us about God and salvation etc.

    God uses a willing person to to his work and he will equip with the help of the bible.

    I am am still in awe of what God did in my life through Angus Bughan.

    I am not saying you are wrong with all the biblical verses that you quote and with all the reasoning behind that, but we as Christians need to get in the stream with the rough diamonds and not try to explain the bible in a couple of days, we need to love, we need to lead people to salvation, and we need opportunities like the miracle that happened in Isreal at The Feast of the Tabernacle to tell people that we serve a living mighty God.

    My prayer for all of you will be that to put other people first, do what Jesus would have done, we need salvation in this world, and sooner all of us realize that, then we can go home and be with our ABBA FATHER.

    That all from me for now, you are more than welcome to delete this or comment on this.

    Thanks for the opportunity to give my 2 cents, and I know this is what God wanted me to put in the comments.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Louis

    You say you don’t know your bible, well I am asking you from the bottom of my heart that you better start learning and quick because Angus Buchan, although it sounds like he preaches a genuine gospel message, it’s not the whole truth, and until you learn what is in YOUR BIBLE, which is the WORD OF GOD, Jesus in published form, you will NOT know if you are being tricked or not.

    You say something very disturbing…

    >> I am am still in awe of what God did in my life through Angus Bughan.

    John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    >> I can’t remember a lot but, what I can remember was that the Holy Spirit was there and that God saved my life that evening, He saved my marriage and a lot more and He used Angus Bughan as a tool to save me.

    Again…

    John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Jesus Christ saves, Jesus Christ ONLY, not Angus Buchan or anything that he says or does.

    That wind that came up and destroyed Angus’ stage was not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit did not destroy the upper room at Pentecost, and Pentecost was a once off occurrence.

    If you genuinely accepted Jesus Christ into your life Louise and you are born again (not because Angus had anything to do with it – it was between YOU and Jesus Christ) then please heed these words and re-read this article and notice who the Holy Spirit IS, how He operates, and so on. Also, please read ALL the articles on Angus Buchan on this website, as they expose his false teaching and the people he fellowships with (that are not real Christians).

    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/2-peoples-names/a/angus-buchan-shalom-ministries/

  • Robbie

    Louis, and remember that God can and will use any man to accomplish His will and purpose. Even men like Angus. And when you come to the truth, you will see that Angus had nothing to do with it. It was your soul that mattered and Jesus did it Himself.

    Indeed, please keep reading.

  • John

    [deleted – Please don’t insult me, I never insulted you. Please read all article on Angus here if you want to know the truth, if you don’t want to know the truth, then don’t]

  • John

    [deleted – Please don’t insult me, I never insulted you. Please read all article on Angus here if you want to know the truth, if you don’t want to know the truth, then don’t]

  • Staci

    [delete – it is not cruel to point out FALSE TEACHING – it is a blessing to the millions of people who are being led astray]

  • Follower of Christ

    [delete]

  • Irma van der Colff

    I lived in Israel for 5 years. To say that the wind never blows in that area is total nonsense! What happened there is not so uncommon.

  • Irma

    Average rainfall at Ein Gedi for October is 8mm

  • A. Nonymous

    Hi,

    I have been reading some of you articles and the comments for some time now. I totally get what this website is about and I am glad I found it. I have a couple of questions though.

    Firstly, something about myself. I come from a Dutch Reformed background and you could classify me as the typical conservative Afrikaner male. (It is perhaps because of this conservative nature that I started to explore and investigate things that I do not feel totally comfortable with) I attended a Dutch Reformed church for the biggest part of my life and always felt that there was more to Christianity than that which I experienced in the Dutch Reformed church. I therefore started to explore and ended up in a charismatic church and my wife and I currently are members of such a church. Please bear with me as it is difficult for me to explain everything I am feeling (experiencing) or to put it into words. The bottom line is that I enjoy going to this church, but there are also a couple of things that I am uncomfortable with.

    I do not agree with the teaching that speaking in tongues is a sign of being baptised in the Holy Spirit. I also do not agree that the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit operates in the same way today as it did in the New Testament. I do believe that our God is capable of performing miracles and I know that miracles still happens today. I also do not like the fact that the Charismatic church rely so much on emotional experiences as part of the way they conduct services and meetings. The problem is, that as I understand, this is exactly what the Charismatic movement is all about?

    There are however things that I do feel comfortable with in the church. For example, they do not force the congregation to tithe and I can honestly say that in my opinion money is not such a big issue in the church. When I say this, I do not mean that they do no ask as to tithe and to give joyfully, but what I mean is that money does not appear to be the main driving force behind the church as I understand that it is in some churches (This I have a very big problem with as I do not agree that people should be making mega bucks out of ministry). I also as of late try and test the teachings we receive from the church with God’s Word and apart from the things mentioned above, there is not much that I can find fault with. I must also admit that I have only very recently started to study my Bible properly so I am very aware that my understanding and interpretation at this stage might be limited, but I try and do this do the best of my ability. I know that I will grow as time passes and maybe things will start do become clearer in the future.

    Now, my question. Is it okay to still go to this church? The town I am living in does not give me many options and of all the churches I have been to, this is the one I feel most comfortable with. I know it must be confusing, because how can I feel at all comfortable when there are so many things that makes me feel uncomfortable. Lets just say that I found a way to look past these things that I do not agree with. I also know the senior pastor personally and he is a very good and humble man and I can honestly say that he tries his best to bring the message across that God is the head of the church and not any other man and that God is the One who saves and that the Bible has final authority. He certainly does not promote himself and I never had the feeling that he feels superior to any other because if I had that impression I would have walked away a long time ago as that is something that really does not sit well with me.

    I know I need to belong to a church and I need guidance as there is so much more that I need to learn and yes the Holy Spirit does give me guidance, but I also feel the need to receive spiritual guidance and teaching from fellow believers.

    I ask you to please correct me where I am wrong in my opinions, but to also understand my background, my lack of biblical knowledge and the fact that I still need to grow a lot spiritually and still need to learn a lot from the Word of God. I am prepared and willing to do this as I know there is so much more that our Mighty God wants to teach me. Can I also say that I really appreciate the way you base everything you say on scripture and this is also why I had the courage to comment as I am not the type of guy that regularly comments on blogs. I want to apologise also for making a comment on this thread that is actually way off the topic…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    A. Nonymous

    :) I will get back to you asap. Never fear what you are facing a million other genuine Christians have gone through the same thing.

  • Smiley

    I have not found one word in the Bible that said that the gifts of the Holy Spirit was only for the First Church only.

    Anybody willing to challenge me on this, Man Up!!

    Why would God give us all the scripture on the gifts of the Holy Spirit??

    Answer me that?? If you can??

    This is a challenge to all of you on this Blog,

    Give me scripture to say that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was only for the first church?

    The Holy Spirit Gifts were all used in the Church until the Roman Catholic “aka satan infiltrated church” destroyed the true biblical church

    I know you want to delete this, but give me a fair debate based on Bible scripture

    Love you all.

    Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

  • Smiley

    Angus confesses Jesus Christ and his fruits are all good.

    So according to biblical Scripture I find no fault with him

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Smiley

    I love challenges. Read your bible in context…

    Your Sons and Your Daughters Will Prophesy, But Not Yet…
    Speaking in Tongues
    Yes, a Future Kingdom, but Not a Kingdom Now
    Christian Right Fuses with Apostolic Dominionism
    Latter Rain – Taking Dominion with another Gospel another Christ

    and many more…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Smiley

    Read all articles on Angus Buchan on this website and read about his friends and then tell me that again…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    A. Nonymous

    Sorry for late reply!

    Ok, where to start.

    >> Firstly, something about myself. I come from a Dutch Reformed background and you could classify me as the typical conservative Afrikaner male. (It is perhaps because of this conservative nature that I started to explore and investigate things that I do not feel totally comfortable with)

    I would say that it’s not because of your conservative side that you started to investigate some of the negative things you were experiencing in church but the Holy Spirit in you A.Nonymous pressing you to look into these thing, to investigate these things that were contrary to scripture. :) So rejoice!

    >> I attended a Dutch Reformed church for the biggest part of my life and always felt that there was more to Christianity than that which I experienced in the Dutch Reformed church

    Ok, now you attended the DRC most of your life but you never understood the the DRC was full blown Calvinistic? and clearly you did not come to accept the deeper teachings of Calvinism which you can just thank Jesus for!

    >> I therefore started to explore and ended up in a charismatic church and my wife and I currently are members of such a church.

    That’s fine, many people do, they are looking for Jesus! And they expect to find Him at the next church they got to… But you fail to realise that you are already saved and the Holy Spirit is abiding in you, or you realise you are saved but you still keep looking for a church to help you grow as a christian, failing to realise or come to temrs with the fact that it’s the Holy Spirit who teaches you :)

    >> I do not agree with the teaching that speaking in tongues is a sign of being baptised in the Holy Spirit. I also do not agree that the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit operates in the same way today as it did in the New Testament. I do believe that our God is capable of performing miracles and I know that miracles still happens today. I also do not like the fact that the Charismatic church rely so much on emotional experiences as part of the way they conduct services and meetings. The problem is, that as I understand, this is exactly what the Charismatic movement is all about?

    >> There are however things that I do feel comfortable with in the church. For example, they do not force the congregation to tithe and I can honestly say that in my opinion money is not such a big issue in the church. When I say this, I do not mean that they do no ask as to tithe and to give joyfully, but what I mean is that money does not appear to be the main driving force behind the church as I understand that it is in some churches (This I have a very big problem with as I do not agree that people should be making mega bucks out of ministry). I also as of late try and test the teachings we receive from the church with God’s Word and apart from the things mentioned above, there is not much that I can find fault with. I must also admit that I have only very recently started to study my Bible properly so I am very aware that my understanding and interpretation at this stage might be limited, but I try and do this do the best of my ability. I know that I will grow as time passes and maybe things will start do become clearer in the future.

    >> Now, my question. Is it okay to still go to this church?

    Ah the million dollar question. There is a FALSE holy spirit roaming this church, it operates through tongues speaking and it operates through the false ‘baptism of the holy spirit’ where fire is called down on the congregation, etc etc etc. I seriously doubt if the pastor preaches the truth, probably some times but not all the time. The fact that they don’t do the tithing thing is a lovely trap. Satan is not stupid, he created a problem and then creates a solution to the problem. Create pastors that are money grabbers and preach nothing but tithes and then when things boil over release pastors who don’t preach tithes, but his satanic spirit is STILL in the church, roaming around making people feel all ‘warm’ and ‘fuzzy’ – but when you walk out the door you feel cold and dead, hence they keep having to return to the church to get your fix.

    We are in the last days, we are so close to the start of the tribulation and the rapture of the church, the Bible tells you that in these days you need to come out of all false teaching, you need to come out of Mystery Babylon, you need to come out of all these religions that are leading back to Rome….

    Revelation 18:4
    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    2 Corinthians 6:14-18
    14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    >> I know I need to belong to a church and I need guidance as there is so much more that I need to learn and yes the Holy Spirit does give me guidance, but I also feel the need to receive spiritual guidance and teaching from fellow believers.

    Nope, this is where you are wrong, you FIRST rely on the Holy Spirit and then on men, not on men and then the Holy Spirit. You think you need guidance and teaching from fellow believers, but you quench the Holy Spirit by thinking like this. You right now are a babe in Christ (so to speak, although I am not so sure, I think you know more thank you think you do :) but you are going to have to grow up very quickly and I am going to tell you know that it is possible if you ASK Jesus to teach you and guide you.

    You can NOT rely on people in this day, you will ONLY be led astray. So A. Nonymous, pick up that bible, take this vast library of knowledge that we have at our disposal called the internet and start LEARNING! This is how I did it :) I just asked Jesus for guidance and I received it through the Holy Spirit abiding in me. Don’t worry, you are already doing it, you just don’t realise it, or you do realise it to a certain extent but you need a bit of a push…. PUSH!! There we go.. run along now.

    Now as for this church, you can keep going, but I tell you what, you are not going to be happy because the Holy Spirit in you is not going to be happy about it. Have you ever tried to speak to this pastor about the things in his church that are so terribly false? Try speak to him about them, and then come tell me if this ‘nice’ pastor stays nice to you. You can’t mix truth and error A. Nonymous. Jesus is the Way the truth and the life (John 14:6), not truth and “error”. If this pastor is a genuine man of God he will want to make sure he is preaching the truth and that Satan is not running rampant throughout his church performing false miracles and strange manifestations.

  • Smiley

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Smiley
    I love challenges. Read your bible in context…
    Your Sons and Your Daughters Will Prophesy, But Not Yet…
    Speaking in Tongues
    Yes, a Future Kingdom, but Not a Kingdom Now
    Christian Right Fuses with Apostolic Dominionism
    Latter Rain – Taking Dominion with another Gospel another Christ
    and many more…

    1) That was written to that Church to remind then that love is the most important, and not focus so much on these gifts that they forget about the most important. love.

    2) The only thing that is perfect is the Lam, through the whole Bible Jesus is referred to as perfect. In the OT the lam had to be perfect, Jesus was/is perfect. So when Jesus comes back then we will not need these gifts anymore obviously.

    3) Why would God give us all these scripture on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and then make then null in void when we get the Bible? Does not make sense at all.

    4) It is written is future tense. torques and prophecy “”will”” cease when that which is perfect comes.

    Thank you for the opportunity to give my view on the topic.

    Be Blessed

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Smiley

    1) That was written to that Church to remind then that love is the most important, and not focus so much on these gifts that they forget about the most important. love.

    2) The only thing that is perfect is the Lam, through the whole Bible Jesus is referred to as perfect. In the OT the lam had to be perfect, Jesus was/is perfect. So when Jesus comes back then we will not need these gifts anymore obviously.

    3) Why would God give us all these scripture on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and then make then null in void when we get the Bible? Does not make sense at all.

    4) It is written is future tense. torques and prophecy “”will”” cease when that which is perfect comes.

    Emmm, errrr, what are you talking about?

    Did you read those articles or just read the headings?

  • Smiley

    [delete – Smiley I am deleting your comments because you are not being truthful: 1) You follow a false gospel, 2) that being you are commenting by using another name as well, Petrus – Please don’t comment on this blog again]

  • Herman

    Hi Deborah
    Amazing, what you people do and I really like the way you stand your ground by telling the truth.
    The church has lied to us and therefore I left them behind.
    Most of the time they and the TV gospel shows are in it for the money. People think you are crazy when you tell them that.
    Thank you for your effort and time you put into seeking the truth.
    God Bless
    Herman du Plessis

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Herman!

  • Sharon Griffith

    Pentecost was NOT the beginning of the Lords Church. In the book of Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

    We know that the word “church” means, a called out assembly. When our Lord Jesus called the Disciples and gave them the power to do things listed in the verse above the Church started then. The true Church of our Lord Jesus was EMPOWERED on the day of Pentecost by the entrance of the precious Holy Spirit. Prior to Pentecost there had already been Baptisms and the Lord’s Supper was first done at what we call the “Last Supper.” We also know that the true church has only two Ordinances, Baptism and the Lord’s Supper (some call it “Communion”) Since those two things happened before Pentecost and the Authority to perform those two Ordinances is given to the Church, then the Church began before Pentecost.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andreas

    I don’t know. Is there any proof that he did?

  • SHARON WHITE

    YAWN,YAWN. You so boring that I honestly wouldn’t bother reading the junk that you write. its not worth the paper its written on.

  • SHARON WHITE wrote,

    How on earth can you evaluate what we write when you don’t read the junk we write? Do you ever read your Bible or is that also just a lot of junk to you?

  • Steven Rohe

    To the DTW!

    What have you done to serve Jesus? Have you lead millions of people to Christ? Because Angus has….
    What is your name so I can see if people have heard about you? Seems as thou Angus is empowered by the HS to preach the gospel and save souls!!!

  • Stevn Rohe

    Who counted the millions who were supposedly saved by Angus Buchan? You? Are you still counting? False teachers just loooooove to boast about one anothers great feats of so-called faith.

    Here’s an example

    Are you also a fan of Rodney Howard-Browne? I suppose he too has lead millions if not trillions to Jesus Chrrist.

    Are you serving Jesus? You should make very sure that you are serving the Jesus of the Bible and not another Jesus who teaches you to boast about people like Angus Buchan and Rodney Howard-Browne who supposedly have lead millions of souls to Jesus Christ. There is, of course, a thing like a false conversion. Did you know that?

    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Co 13:5)

  • Joe Lima

    Steven, please do us all a favour and tell us where Angus has given a clear gospel message to the crowds who have gathered to listen to him. The social message of ‘being better people’ which he puts out is not the gospel. Social regeneration is not the gospel.

  • Vanessa

    Steven,

    Years ago (20/25 years) maybe more Rheinhard Bonnke began telling people that he lead thousands and thousands to the lord. These Charasmatic people love the numbers game. Do the maths. If this is the case then the whole of Africa must be saved by now. Then lets add a few more African pastors who brag. Ray Mccauley, Rodney-Howard Brown, At Boshoff, The Roebert family in East London, Angus. The all say millions have to the Lord by their services and teachings. Clearly this is not the case. I really have righteous anger when I hear how so called pastors brag. I shall copy and paste you a bible study on 2 Cor verse 10. I dont usually read anything but the KJV but I think you may enjoy the New Standard.

    Paul’s Defense of His Ministry
    10 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

    7 You are judging by appearances.[a] If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do. 8 So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it. 9 I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. 10 For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing.” 11 Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.

    12 We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. 13 We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the sphere of service God himself has assigned to us, a sphere that also includes you. 14 We are not going too far in our boasting, as would be the case if we had not come to you, for we did get as far as you with the gospel of Christ. 15 NEITHER DO WE GO BEYOUND OUR LIMITS BY BOASTING OF WORK DONE BY OTHERS. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand, 16 so that we can preach the gospel in the regions beyond you. For we do not want to boast about work already done in someone else’s territory. 17 But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[b] 18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

    Please search the word and ask God to reveal the absolute truth. Its painful to discover that the church as been lying to us but we should have questioned way back but we chose to sit comfy in our chairs believing and never questiong. Very similair to those in the Cathlic church. If you are truelly saved I know God will show you.
    Take care.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Steven

    Oh my dear Steven, I hope you read that bible passage Vanessa gave you. From there you might want to try reading more bible passages to learn the Word of God and the truth that lies therein.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Joe is right, it’s a social message of bettering yourself. In fact when you join freemasonry their social message is about becoming a better person as well. Angus Buchan joined forces with Rick Joyner (a Freemason) recently. However it was Rick Joyner who prophecied in early 2000’s in Cape Town that a church would spring forth from the same area where Angus Buchan’s ministry is situated and move north and take over SA. I have always wondered why Rick Joyner would say such a thing about Angus if Angus was not a freemason as well. Hmmm

  • Dawn

    Hi Guys
    Only came across this web site tonight. Thanks for the enlightening encouragement. Had just attended a meeting this afternoon where the majority were taken in by a totally false message. Some of it was true (that’s how deception works), but the doctrine was so skewed it was frightening. Take heart that the Bride of Christ is but a remnant !! God always works with the few. Only 8 were saved in the flood. Elijah thought he was the only one left, but God reminded him that 7000 men had not bowed their knee to Baal. I don’t know how many Israelites were living at that time, but a few million, I’m sure.
    I felt the same as you when stating that there was much error – we get shouted down very quickly. Fortunately, a few of us have had excellent teaching, and I thank the Lord for giving us discernment.
    Critics must realise that we do not criticise the man, but what he teaches!!
    Stay strong and tell it like it is. Shalom.

  • Joshua Rehse

    Every one of you who choose to believe that Uncle Angus’ message and the Spirit’s manifestation that night was a deception, are in fact the ones that are deceived.
    What you’re actually doing is limiting God by discussing amongst yourselves what He should and should not do or how He should or should not reveal Himself to His people.
    A lot of you have the taken the approach of Spiritual Pacifism towards God and His Holy Spirit. There is nothing passive about MY God!
    Nobody was hurt at Ein Gedi that night. Nobody was injured. How can you therefore claim this was the enemy’s display?
    How dare you choose such an incredible event and manifestation of the Spirit as a means to make yourself look holy and to arrogantly display your seemingly intelligent and intellectual outlook on what happened that night.
    Disgusting!

  • Joshua Rehse,

    Angus Buchan is a Charismatic/Word of Faith adherent who regards false teachers like Rodney Howard-Brown of the holy laughter movement as men of God who is doing the will of God and filling people with fire. Anyone who approves a false teacher’s teaching is as evil as the false teacher himself.

    2 John 1:9-11
    (9)  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    (10)  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    (11)  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    http://www.revival.com/pastor-rodney-with-angus-buchan.2658.1.htm

    The Prophetic Movement of the NAR are seeking to conjure up a Second Pentecost (like the Roman Catholic Church) which is totally unbiblical and Angus Buchan is looking to be the first guy who wants to accomplish this. False teachings? You bet. Highmindedness? You bet! Angus Buchan is leading you back to Rome and the infamous false prophet who calls himself the Vicar of Christ.

    Jesus warned:

    Take heed that no one deceive you (Matthew 24:4).

    Who are you going to obey – Jesus or Angus Buchan who is misleading people with his Dominionist agenda? I sincerely hope you choose toe follow the Jesus of the Bible.

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Angus Buchan's Holy Ghost Chaos or....was it Something Else.

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