Angus Buchan’s Holy Ghost Chaos or…

Angus Buchan - Feast Of Tabernacles - holy ghostAngus Buchan’s Holy Ghost Chaos or….was it Something Else.

This was posted by Angus Buchan on his Facebook page.  A most bizarre letter to the public detailing his trip to the Dead Sea.   Please see my notes in GREEN.

Letter from Angus Buchan:

Dear Friends

The young man that accompanied me on my trip to Israel, after experiencing the phenomenon that I am about to relate to you said to me that he does not believe that we will see anything like this again in our lifetime.

I was asked to be the keynote speaker for the event at ‘The Feast of the Tabernacle 2012’ down at the Dead Sea, at Ein Gedi. It is an annual event that has been taking place for over thirty years. There was a crowd there of approximately four and a half thousand pilgrims from every corner of the earth (very significant), because at the time of the visitation of the Holy Spirit to the disciples in the ‘upper room’ people had congregated in Jerusalem from all the corners of the earth as well.

[DTW note:  What a load of nonsense.  The Pentecost in the book of Acts was a ONCE OFF occurrence. The Pentecost signaled the beginning of the church age.

The only reference to the actual events of Pentecost is (Acts 2:1-4). Pentecost is reminiscent of the Last Supper; in both instances the disciples are together in a house for what proves to be an important event. At the Last Supper the disciples witness the end of the Messiah’s earthly ministry as He asks them to remember Him after His death until He returns. At Pentecost, the disciples witness the birth of the New Testament church in the coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell all believers. Thus the scene of the disciples in a room at Pentecost commences with the beginning of the Holy Spirit’s work in the church with the conclusion of Christ’s earthly ministry in the upper room before the crucifixion.

Another aspect of the Day of Pentecost is the miraculous speaking in foreign tongues which enabled people from various language groups to understand the message of the apostles. In addition is the bold and incisive preaching of Peter to a Jewish audience. The effect of the sermon was powerful, as listeners were “cut to the heart” (Acts 2:37) and instructed by Peter to “repent, and be baptized” (Acts 2:38).  The narrative concludes with 3000 souls being saved, the breaking of bread and prayers, apostolic signs and wonders, and a Utopian community formed in which everyone’s needs were met.

Is Angus Buchan implying that his meeting was ANOTHER Pentecost? Signalling the beginning of ANOTHER church Age? Impossible.]

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When I arrived it was exceedingly hot, as always at the Dead Sea. There was a tremendous anticipation in the air of what God was going to do. The organizers had told me at the Christian embassy that they were expecting God to make a change. They had been praying and fasting that the Lord would bring a new season into the life of the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem (ICEJ). I was escorted to my seat in the front so that I could get onto the platform easily and the atmosphere was one of peace and joy. There were dancers dancing for the Lord from literally all over the world. The music team was amazing. Afro American singers from the United States of America, musicians from all over Europe and I could almost see the Lord was smiling from heaven. Eventually they called me up to the stage and they prayed for me and every one settled down to hear the Word of God.

I opened my Bible (it’s a heavy red coloured study Bible) and in the NKJ version I started to read from Act 2:1-4, it was speaking about the Holy Spirit visiting the disciples in the ‘upper room’. Verse 2 talks about a mighty rushing wind which came through and tongues of fire settled on each one of the disciples heads in that room. I had no sooner finished reading that scripture which was reminding them that Peter went out after that and preached. His first sermon that he ever preached three thousand people came to Christ. A man who had denied the Lord three times and who literally had been a coward was now being transformed. Why? Because he had been baptised in the Holy Ghost.

[DTW note:  Peter could preach so magnificently because of the Holy Spirit yes, but not because it was a “baptism in the Holy Ghost” as seen in today’s churches that Angus Buchan would have us believe.  Note, AFTER the Pentecost experience, Peter went out to peach and the 3000 who came to salvation did not experience the ‘wind and tongues of fire above their heads’ that those in the upper room experienced. Because what happened in the upper room was a special experience – God was empowering them for the Great Commission.]

As soon as I finished reading I closed my Bible and started to walk on the platform like I normally do, up and down … and a wind came from no where. Literally a mighty rushing wind, that seemed to be coming from every side, from the north, south, east and the west at one time. It was a wind I can only describe it was very similar to what a tornado must be like, because it blew that heavy Bible straight off the lectern. It started blowing all the overhead screens, ripping them to shreds, dust was everywhere and it started to rain.

[DTW note:  I don’t read anywhere in the bible that the Holy Spirit is destructive]

I need to remind you that the Dead Sea is not called the Dead Sea for nothing; there is not a blade of grass in that place. It looks like the moon; it is a real dessert area. That’s the place where David hid from King Saul, when Saul was trying to kill him. They never get wind there, wind does not blow in the valleys – wind is known to blow on the mountains. We are not talking of the Sea of Galilee which is alive and vibrant with fresh water we are talking about the Dead Sea where the water is so salty and so stagnant that people can not actually sink, you can not drown in the Dead Sea.

This wind came from nowhere. It started blowing and as the intensity grew and as I started welcoming the Holy Spirit and saying “Come Holy Spirit”, the wind intensified and the structure started shaking, a huge platform with a steal girders above me where multicoloured lights were mounted. A beautiful setting and it was like God just stripped everything. I found myself standing on the platform on my own with nothing, except a microphone. I went through three microphones that night. The third one they had to give me on a direct lead, an electrical cord. One of the organizers in the front, a Norwegian by the name of Jan who brought his OB tuck by ship all the way from Norway to film the event live back to Scandinavia said a man from the far East who couldn’t speak English was shouting to him “fire, fire” and he understood that it was the fire of God coming downwhich it was by the way. But he looked around and eventually saw that the electrical cables going from his OB truck had caught on fire.

The satellite link was cut off because of the mighty wind that was blowing. I started to speak in tongues, I started singing in tongues. I encouraged the people to do the same, they got on their knees, then they stood up and then they were crying, we were laughing, it was literally “Holy Ghost chaos.” 

[DTW note:  Angus Buchan spoke and sang in gibberish which he considers tongues!  And encourages everyone to to the same.  The bible on the other hand says that at Pentecost, they spoke human languages that they themselves did not understand. 

Acts 2:6-11

Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Acts 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Acts 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

So as you can see it is clear that people from other areas could understand the Galilaeans speaking the Word of God in their language.  It was not gibberish or gobildy gook that Angus Buchan and the rest of the false church speaks today.

The ‘gift of tongues’ given to the early church was given as the Holy Spirit willed. Because the Holy Spirit is sovereign. No one has the right to demand that he be given any certain gift or gifts as an evidence of the Holy Spirit’s baptism.  Tongues was certainly not evidence of salvation.  For example, some people in the Corinthian church were given the gift of tongues to edify the church – this tongue was an earthly language.

1Cor 14:2 “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.”

G1100  glossa (glows-sah) n.
1. the tongue
2. (by implication) a language
3. (specially) a language not naturally acquired

The Corinthian church did not have the Bible, so the gift of tongues was needed, but then they ceased.  Corinth, was a market visted by many a merchant from Asia, Africa, and Europe, and had a wildly mixed population speaking many a different language.  To exercise of the gift of tongues in preaching bought many an unbeliever to salvation.

1Cor 13:8  “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”

But, tongues served their purpose, a very useful one, in authenticating the Message that was delivered as being DIVINE;  these signs followed the proclamation of the truth. Now with God’s complete revelation in our hands (the Bible), we do not require signs to manifest it as the Word of the Lord. When preached in power, it authenticates itself]

Please see this article explaining “Tongues” – Speaking in Tongues

I can only explain it like this, it was like the Lord took His hand from heaven and He wiped it clean from anything that we had tried to do, there was nothing left. I was standing alone, I was leaning into the wind to try and keep my balance and God was moving amongst the people.

Every nation on earth was represented. I am an Evangelist, I am aware of my responsibility to preach the Gospel and to pray the sinner’s prayer with unbelievers. Well I want to tell you for the first time in my life I never even made an alter call and the people started running forward. Hundreds and Hundreds of them. Then something else that I have never done in my life before, the Israeli crew that was responsible for erecting the stage area pleaded with me to please tell the people to go back to their seats because they were afraid that the structure was going to collapse. But no one was listening to me; they were experiencing a tangible manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

[DTW note:  I don’t believe it, why would God come and destroy your stage?  We have 1 of 2 things happening here.  1) This is God’s judgement on you and your false teaching;  that you dare come to God’s land Israel and speak your Latter Rain false teaching there.  2) Because you love your signs and wonders so much, and people prayed for ‘God’ to make a change, Satan jumped right in and blew up a tempest wind that you mistook as being the Holy Spirit.  Well your god really did make a change, he re-arranged your stage for you and left you standing with nothing, so much so that you could not preach (which was probably a good thing, considering it’s Latter Rain false doctrine anyhow)]

Just as a matter of interest, let’s see how the Holy Spirit of the Bible operates:

Who is the Holy Spirit?

  • The Holy Spirit is God, the third Person of the Trinity.  (Acts 5:3-4)
  • The Holy Spirit is a divine person, a being with a mind, emotions, and a will. (1 Corinthians 2:10; Ephesians 4:30; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11)
  • The Holy Spirit is also omnipresence (Psalm 139:7-8)
  • The Holy Spirit is omniscience (1 Corinthians 2:10-11)
  • The Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we can’t pray (Romans 8:26-27)
  • The Holy Spirit is Helper our Comforter and our Counsellor (John 14:16,26; 15:26)
  • The Holy Spirit will guide us and lead us into all Truth according to Biblical scripture. (John 16:12)A crucial part of the truth the Holy Spirit reveals is that Jesus is who He said He is (John 15:26; 1 Corinthians 12:3)
    • There is NO extra-biblical revelation from the Holy Spirit.
  • The Holy Spirit’s role is that of gift-giver (Corinthians 12)The Holy Spirit is also the fruit producer in our lives (Galatians 5:22-23)
    • The Holy Spirit convinces us of Jesus Christ’s deity and incarnation, that He is the Messiah, i.e.,
    • He gives glory to Christ in all things.  (John 16:14)

How do we receive the Holy Spirit

  • We receive the Holy Spirit the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
  • We receive the Holy Spirit by simply receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour (John 3:5-16)

Are there any happenings that go with the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

  • No, the evidence of a genuine salvation is you are now not controlled by your sinful nature but by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:9)
  • Chastisement by the Holy Spirit when we sin to repent of our sin and not sin again. (Hebrews 12:6-7; Hebrews 12:8)
  • Evidence of being born again is:
    • Obeying scripture, God’s commandments.  (1 John 2:5)
    • Respecting God’s pronouncements as authoritative in your life. Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. (1 John 1:8)
    • No more love for the world. (1 John 2:15)
    • Living in daily awareness that Jesus Christ will return for His own! (1 John 3:2-3)
    • You are sinning less now than when you first made a profession of faith in Christ. You hate sinning.  (1 John 3:9)
    • Love for other believers in Jesus Christ. (1 John 3:14)
    • Pray all the time and having prayers answered. (1 John 3:22)
    • Sharp Discernment as you find it easy to sort out the claims of various religions, etc. (1 John 4:1)
    • You have a conscious awareness that the Holy Spirit of God lives in you. He teaches you things from the Scriptures on a regular basis. (1 John 4:13)

What does ‘Walking in the Spirit’ mean?.  What does being “Filled by the Holy Spirit’ mean?

  • The Filling of the Holy Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life as we grow in Holiness.  Also known as to “walk in the Spirit; It is to follow the Holy Spirit’s leading.
  • It is essentially to “walk with” the Holy Spirit, allowing Him to guide your steps and conform your mind. (Ephesians 4:1; Philippians 1:27)

Evidence or Signs and Wonders:

  • Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)
  • If we need healing or deliverance we are to ask HIM DIRECTLY through prayer and He will heal us.
    • We do not need to go to men with so called ‘gifts of healing’ when we can approach Jesus Christ directly.
    • Yes we can have others pray for us (genuine Christians that is).
    • We pray in faith, but faith means that we are to trust God. We trust Him to do what is best and to know what is best. (Romans 8:28)
    • Suffering is part of life for both the unbeliever and the believer. For the believer it is often used by God in the development and maturing of our faith.  (Philippians 3:10)
    • Paul the apostle prayed to have his “thorn in the flesh” removed, but God said, “No” because He wanted Paul to understand that for in Paul’s weakness, God’s strength is made perfect. (2 Corinthians 12:7-10).
    • Don’t conclude that because you have not been healed that you have an absence or lack of faith or some secret sin that prevents your healing. You just might have God’s glory resting on you for a special purpose.

A local tour operator told me that in thirty one years of coming down to the Dead Sea every single year he had never ever seen rain and he had never experienced a wind of that measure. My dear friend I have no doubt whatsoever that the Holy Spirit visited us.

[DTW note:  Angus has no doubt that it was the Holy Spirit?  Really?  I decided to go through the NT on behalf of Angus Buchan and I can’t find any instance of the Holy Spirit behaving in such manner.  The Holy Spirit is a soft still voice as mentioned in Kings which is in the OT.

1Kgs 19:12  “And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.”  

Now I know there are going to be many who are going to tell me that God is doing things outside of His box.  What they are implying is that God lied when He said His Word was His FINAL AUTHORITY on all matters.  I prefer to stick to God’s box (the Bible), thanks.].

I want to tell you that never again will I apologize for the presence of the Holy Spirit. He will be pre-eminent in all my meetings, in all my conversations and in everything I do. I firmly believe that we need to be filled with the Holy Spirit and I firmly believe that the evidence is speaking in a beautiful language.  If it is possible for a man to be born again, again then that’s what happened to me. I am so filled with the joy of the Lord; I am so at peace, I have so much confidence. I want to encourage you to allow Him to fill you with His Spirit; He is standing at the door, Revelation 3:20 and He is knocking. I have no cause to tell you a lie. I want to tell you that He is alive and that He is well. Give the Holy Spirit place in your life and He will bless you.

God bless
Angus Buchan

source:  http://www.facebook.com/pages/Angus-Buchan/257406448855

[DTW note:  Angus seems to think that receiving the Holy Spirit is a separate act over and above being saved.  This is not true.  These three passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of salvation.   Paul said to the Corinthian believers that they all were baptized by one Spirit and all given one Spirit to drink because all possessed the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 states it even clearer; if a person does not have the Spirit, he does not belong to Christ.

Therefore, the possession of the Spirit is an identifying factor of the attaining of salvation. Further, the Holy Spirit  is the “seal of salvation” (Ephesians 1:13-14) which the person receives at the moment of salvation. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that our salvation is secured the moment we receive Jesus Christ as our Savior.

There are many a ministry that have this simple process of how the Holy Spirit operates confused. The truth is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation (the moment you are genuinely saved, you are “baptized by the Holy Spirit”).  The filling of the Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life. Unbiblical ministries confuse the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”  as an act separate to salvation, and this is where Satan jumps in and fools people, presenting them with a false holy spirit.

Angus said, “If it is possible for a man to be born again, again then that’s what happened to me”  The Holy Spirit does not come and go, come and go from a believer. He either abides in you, or He does not.   

Rom 8:9   “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”  

In fact the bible says it’s impossible for your to be born again twice.  

Hebrews 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In conclusion, how do we receive the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit by simply receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (John 3:5-16). When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit becomes our permanent possession the moment we genuinely believe.

Angus said, “I firmly believe that the evidence is speaking in a beautiful language”.   The evidence of being saved is NOT speaking in tongues (gibberish) as Angus so states, I have given a list of evidences above.

See video 0f Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne Joking in “Tongues”

Please read the correct biblical interpretation of Joel 2 and Acts 2 below –  

….Latter Rain adherents have a movement that believes in a last day’s revival unlike any other in history. This revival is for the church.  They incorrectly apply eschatological passages specifically for Israel to the church. The common mistake is taking the scripture in (Acts 2:17) which says: ‘God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh,’ to substantiate what is happening in the new revivals today. This is not the meaning of this verse and cannot be applied today for the above mentioned reasons….Your Sons and Your Daughters Will Prophesy, But Not Yet…]

Edited 13/11/2012 – Video found.

I found the following video of Angus at the Dead Sea, at Ein Gedi.  It appears that Angus asks God for a repeat of what happened at Pentecost!  That is not what he said in his newsletter above.  Imagine that.  Now we know that in the bible people kept asking Jesus for a sign, for a miracle that He was the Son of God (INSTEAD OF BELIEVING BY FAITH) and Jesus said to them… (Matthew 12.39-40) “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”.

The only sign that Angus will never be satisfied with is that fact that Jesus was crucified, buried for 3 days and rose again.  Faith is not enough for Angus, he must have a sign.  And Jesus will not give it to him.  Who does give signs and wonders?  Satan.  Matthew 24:24  “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”

LIST OF ALL ANGUS BUCHAN ARTICLES:

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

82 Responses

  1. Werner says:

    There is no reason to believe that the gift of tongues mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is any different from that mentioned in the book of Acts. In both places the tongues involved speaking in earthly languages that one had never learned. The same Greek word “glossa” is used for both. This word refers to the tongue itself (Mk. 7:33) or to a language spoken by the tongue.

  2. Carm says:

    I don’t know much about this guy, but one of my friends is really into him and since he is mentioned so often here I googled him. What bothers me is the image – it’s almost unreal: who walks around everywhere with a cowboy hat and red bible under his arm, even when he’s meeting politicians? Normally old fashioned farmers would take their hat off as a sign of respect, when greeting a woman or stepping into a church, wouldn’t they? But no, that image is everywhere. Call me paranoid, but it reminds me of Monarch mind control – the subjects/puppets have their whole public image (or the image that a dominant personality projects) planned out for them, from what they will wear, what music genre they will fit into, who they’ll shack up with tomorrow – it’s all a show. These images are diligently and cleverly crafted to target a certain market/audience. The image of Angus Buchan is very cleverly crafted, very clever indeed. I’m NOT saying he is a Monarch puppet, I don’t have any proof… but, in my opinion, that’s the fakest image I’ve seen in a long time.

  3. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Carm

    You have said something that I have been thinking for a long time.

  4. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Werner

    Sorryyyyyy, you are right, I was smoking my socks last night and mis-read a verse. I dunno what I was thinking. O_O I have fixed the article.

  5. Chris De Wet says:

    URGENT!!!! The ICEJ has proven to be an organization whereby no pro-active evangelisation to the Jews are permitted. Instead they are instructed to wait until a Jew asks them questions regarding the Messiah. This however is the “Political correct” thing to do according to them, however when one considers the Scriptures the Lord Jesus, and all the apostles and disciples ministry to the Jews was straight forward, offensive, pro-active and mostly replied with violence and aggression.

    Deborah, you stated: Is Angus Buchan implying that his meeting was ANOTHER Pentecost? Signalling thebeginning of ANOTHER church Age? Impossible.] I would sya that this is the whole agenda – the beginning of ANOTHER church age known by NAR the NEW WORLD ORDER church.

    I am including a letter which I wrote to Michael Utterbeck of the ICEJ quite some years ago. In this letter you will see that the ICEJ is in agreement with the prosperity teachers as well as Rome.

    Angus has become part of this and that is very sad indeed.

    This letter was written to the director of the ICEJ after I had tried to get clarity in the ICEJ directly from him. The incidences mentioned in this letter should be a clear indication of how these people think and what they do.

    Here is the letter:
    —————–

    Dear Mr. Michael Utterback,

    I have received correspondence from the International Christian Embassy (ICEJ) for some time now. I have also received the Bridges for Peace newsletters and teachings and have found some very interesting teachings in the Bridges For Peace articles, where the Jewish culture is used to explain the meaning of the New Testament better to the Christian.

    My prayers have always been to support the Jewish people in every possible way, because the Scriptures do command us to do so. Just like so many others, I have an inherent burden towards the people of Israel.

    I also feel that if it was not for the Jews, we would not have had the Scriptures to lead us to salvation and it is because of this that we have to return this same favor, to the nation of Israel.

    I do not profess to be one of the “know it alls” I have much to learn but have also learnt throughout the years that it is very important to discern whom one listens to, supports and what the agenda of the organization or person is one listens to and supports. I cannot just accept allegations made against people and organizations without looking into the matter myself. There are always two sides to a story. This is the same route I intended following with the ICEJ and Bridges For Peace.

    I have sent a couple of e-mails to Bridges For Peace as well as to the representatives of the ICEJ concerning documentation received by me, stating that the ICEJ welcomed the Pope to Jerusalem as well as that the ICEJ was asked to agree on not preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Jewish people they are bringing back to Israel. Unfortunately no one has returned a response to me.

    With your visit to South Africa and in particular to Bloemfontein, I attended the campaign, where your aim was to raise funds for the purpose of supporting the beloved people of God, Israel.

    I was pleased to hear that you said that the Catholics were involved in the extermination of 6 million Jews and that they basically supported Hitler and the Nazi regime, in the inhalation of God’s people. I was even more pleased to hear that your organization condemns Islam and their purpose, to wipe the Jews from the face of the earth, as so often proclaimed by the Muslim leaders and followers as promoted by the Quaran itself.

    It was in this light that I prayerfully considered speaking to you, after the assembly in Bloemfontein. I had to make sure what the ICEJ stands for, as I know two of families in Bloemfontein who are very dear friends of mine, who support your organization as well and only had good reports of your activities.

    I am sure you would recall the conversation we had, where I asked you if the ICEJ had extended an invitation to Pope John Paul 11, to visit Jerusalem. Your reply was that you are on the board of directors and a very important decision maker in matters like these, whereupon you emphatically stated that the ICEJ never invited the Pope to Jerusalem and that it was just a campaign, to blacklist your organization.

    On further investigation I was satisfied that you did not invite the Pope to Israel, but welcomed him on his visit, which did not make much sense to me but became clear later on, as you will notice later on in this letter.

    On my next question regarding the concern I had about preaching the gospel to the Jews in Israel, which to my understanding and information that I have, is that you are prohibited to do, your reply was a bit vague. Your first answer was that you minister to the Jews in various ways, and do not take the Gospel to them, but wait for them to ask you.

    It was at this stage that Darren, a Jewish youngster, interrupted our conversation to speak with you. When he had finished speaking to you, I asked you again if you preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Jews at which you became agitated with me. My conversation was never directed to Darren but to you alone. Unfortunately Darren got involved and rejected this Jesus I was speaking about, asking me how I would feel if someone came to preach Buddha to me. What this Jewish lad was saying is preaching Buddha to a Christian is the same as preaching Yeshua to the Jew. You agreed with this principle, by siding with Darren, thus putting Buddha on the same level as Yeshua.

    Needless to say I mentioned to you that the New Testament implores us to preach the Good News of the Messiah to the Jews. The New Testament’s message in the Word of Christ as well as the message Paul gives is to make disciples of all nations, especially to the Jew first, yet you disagreed saying this is insensitive and without love.

    Although it was unfortunate that Darren had to get involve at this stage, as I had no intention to speak to him, but to you alone, it however might have been a blessing in disguise, to reveal your true agenda. It was at this stage that it became obvious that you did not want to say anything about the Messiah, when Darren out rightly rejected Him and His teachings. After careful thought it became clear to me, that you compromised the message of Christ and even Christ Himself, to satisfy the remark he made on Buddha, thus making it clear that you do not bring the Gospel of Jesus to the Jews.

    It is because Darren said in your presence, that he does not believe in the Messiah or in the New Testament of the Christians and your refusal to say anything, that my immediate reaction was to try and explain in the difficult and short time the prophecies concerning Jesus in the Old Testament to him, which pointed to Yeshua, although I knew one would need much more time for this sort of thing. I also had to react because it was insulting statements made against, the Word of the only Redeemer and His very purpose of dying on the Cross. Keeping quiet would have shown either defeat or compromise to an anti- Christ statement as this.

    Your support in this regard to Darren was a shock to me as I am sure you may have noticed. Not once did you defend the Gospel and our Messiah, but instead contributed to the statements made by Darren, by saying that it was the Christians who killed the Jews, to which I answered no; it was the Catholics (The Vatican to be more specific in working with Hitler), to which you replied Martin Luther was an anti – Semitic Christian. Now no one needs to be a rocket scientist to figure out that Luther also had basic Catholic training and was subject to many ways of the Catholic doctrine, despite his thesis he presented. Instead of defending the Gospel of Christ, you rejected it, twisting an understanding into being and promoting the heresy that true Christians are murderers of Jews.

    Your accusation towards me; “You are only trying do prove something to yourself so that you may go out and tell others you had an opportunity to preach to a Jew” is naïve and totally unfounded. There are many people who can testify to the fact, that I do not pride myself in a personal capacity in preaching Jesus to anyone, after all it is a command as I see it, in the Scriptures.

    If this is what the train of thought is in your mind, then it would appear as if you yourself seem to be boastful in mentioning your multiple international travels, speaking to 18000 Indonesians etc. etc. Maybe this is proves why the late Col. Orde Debbie resigned from the ICEJ, as he could not identify with the extravagance of the expenditures on international programs. Money, which were to be used for evangelizing the Jews.

    Your attitude towards the prosperity teachers and your organization’s tolerance of the likes of Cerullo and Ulf Ekmann, as I have come to learn, suggests that you are no different to them. Your international travels are self-edifying and fleecing those who are unaware of your heretical purposes, nothing short of the true sign of being a Pharisee, exactly what you accused me of being, when I asked you two simple questions in an orderly manner.

    Apart from refusing to defend the faith, you never mentioned Jesus Christ once in your address to the gathering. Are you scared of offending the Jews? Paul and Jesus and the rest of the disciples were in constantly persecuted for this type of thing. Christ’s love exceeds the love of all of us, yet He refused to compromise in any way. He came to do the will of His Father and commanded us to do the same.

    What I find disturbing is that in a Country like South Africa and the rest of the world for that matter, most people seem to keep quiet when someone is on a podium and have a so called “stand” to say their say.” Yet when they are questioned on what they proclaim, (in my instance to gain more knowledge about your organization) they are without love, the Holy Spirit and insensitive, according to your accusation, directed at me. I found it foreign to Scriptures, where the Holy Spirit says in John 7:24 that we must judge with righteous judgment (A Command), that you became very antagonistic towards me when I asked you to address my concerns, regarding the ICEJ and its policies. As you told me who am I to judge, what you said. Even Paul in Acts 17 commended the Berean believers that they did not believe anything he said, but rather tested all Paul said against the Scriptures.

    I was sincerely hoping you would understand that I had heard and was sent information regarding the ICEJ and that I wanted to discuss this with you. This had a two way purpose, the first being to discern whether the statements against your organization was relevant and secondly, whether those who supplied this information about your organization irrelevant.

    Your comment, regarding the personal evangelizing of the Jews, was that the Holy Spirit does this work of salvation among the people of Israel and not man, is in total contradiction with Rom. 10:14 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

    In Isaiah 60:16 it is also clear that it is the gentiles who should bring the gospel to the Jews, not excluding the message as in Rom.11either.

    Paul and the Gospel of Christ say that the Holy Spirit will work through each believer to evangelize the nations of the world and the Jews the Good News. I do not take the workings and the amazing power of the Holy Spirit lightly and believe He is not to be limited by man, but nowhere do I get the message in the Scriptures (New Testament) that anyone mentions we should work without the Spirit and that we should not preach the Gospel because the Holy Spirit will do it on our behalf and not through us, only. Who did Jesus and Paul say must preach the Gospel, the Holy Spirit alone or the Holy Spirit through the believers? What I understand, is to explain the Scriptures prayerfully to the unbelieving and then the Holy Spirit will unlock their understanding. This action should be done in meekness and gentleness as I mentioned to you.

    You might as well then pack up your endeavors to feed them materially and let the Holy Spirit take care of this as well. After all what is more important, to feed them the Gospel of everlasting life or to feed them materially? Where are your priorities?

    Unfortunately you also became very personal and started accusing me of being without love and without the Holy Spirit in my heart. This is not surprising as this method is not uncommon to those who can’t prove a point from the Scriptures. As soon as a person attacks the personality of someone else, it is a sure sign that he has no more logical reasoning left to prove true and relevant facts from the Bible and that he has lost self-control, which is supposed to be one of the fruits of the Spirit.

    I dare also to ask, who are you to have discerned my heart, by saying that I do not have the Holy Spirit in my heart, I thought God is the One Who is a discerner of hearts, unless you are God off course? The Lord in His Word says by their fruits you will know them, but how is it possible that within about two minutes, you judged sentenced and condemned me. Yet you say I am judgmental and without love. Aren’t you contradicting yourself?

    During your speech you also mentioned that the Israeli nation will prosper again and pointed to the charismatic prospering preached in so many false religions as being “fine” With regard to the charismatic prospering which is a total heresy, I also do not see the Jewish nation prospering before the return of Christ as proclaimed by yourself. Only after the return of Christ, yes as it is prophesied in the Scriptures. Hence the Name Israel meaning “One who will rule as God” and the city of peace as described by the name Jerusalem. But to tell Israel that they are going to prosper in their land, while not mentioning the time of Jacob’s trouble, the prophecies regarding the fate of Israel in the last days as explained especially in the book of Daniel, Ezekiel 37 where it speaks of the restoration of Israel, (which started in 1917 and peaked in 1948), followed by a warning of Russia, Turkey, Eastern Europe, Iran and Libya attacking them, resulting in the warnings of Zechariah 12, 13 and 14, is dangerous and without love.

    I don’t want the Jews to suffer any more and would encourage people to warn them about the pending danger, which is clearly not too far away.

    Your mention, that Israel would experience a time of peace and safety is false and will only occur after the return of the Messiah when they will recognize Him Whom they have pierced. One of the ways in which to recognize Him is through the evangelizing Christians, which you shy away from.

    According to the New Testament there will be a time of peace and safety in the last days. But it does not agree with the peace and safety you are promoting, without Jacobs’ trouble first. This is a peace and safety ushered in by the anti- Christ. The peace and safety of;
    1Thess: 5:3: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    1Thess: 5:4: But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    1Thess: 5:5: Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    1Thess: 5:6: Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    1Thess: 5:7: For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

    Also the “peace and safety” of Dan. 8:25, Dan.9: 25 and Rev.6: 4. What peace and love are you really promoting, sir?

    You are getting them ready to meet their doom, a time when the anti-Christ will rule the world. They will be deceived once more through the type of gospel you are teaching.

    The Old Testament warns about false prophets promoting peace when there is no peace, as pointed out in Jer.6: 14, 8:11 and Ezek. 13:10.

    Jer: 6:14: They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. Is this not what is happening now?

    I know you said I must not mention Scriptures to you when we were in Bloemfontein, but I can’t resist, as this is the only source I rely on.

    In Zechariah 13:8- 9 The Word of God warns everyone; “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    I realize that Biblical prophecy is true and accurate and that God will use the gentiles to bring the Jews back to their land for the final conflict. But it seems that the very gentiles who are doing this are being deceived, in not issuing a warning as well as the Gospel of Christ with this action.

    There is nothing nobody can do to change these prophecies, but there are those who realize that being part of a prophecy and doing the will of the Lord, is better than being an instrument of the evil, waiting to take place by not proclaiming the Gospel pro-actively.

    As I see it, you are fulfilling prophecy in the Scriptures by assisting the Jews to get back into their land in the millions. The problem is that Jesus said no one will come to salvation without Him. Acts 4:12, 1Tim. 2:5 and obviously and equally important Isaiah 43:9 – 11. If they die without accepting the Messiah, what then? I am not able to pass judgment on whether God will save them or not, but according to the Scriptures, dying without the Savior is disastrous.

    Again I stress, bringing the Jews back to Israel to get killed in a time of Jacob’s Trouble without giving them the Messiah, does not sound Scriptural enough to me, but rather as another Holocaust.

    Nowhere do I find the love you so graciously promote. As with your connections with the Pope, and ecumenism, you are being deceived by the devil himself to wipe out what is left of Israel. Where is the love you accused me of not having? If you love the Jews, please preach Yeshua to them!

    At one stage in your speech, you condemn the Vatican and the Catholics but on the other hand, welcome the Pope to Jerusalem! This is not surprising, because the Bible says that there will be those who oppose themselves.

    The information I have with me regarding the ICEJ welcoming Pope John Paul II to Jerusalem which was downloaded from your website, does not agree with your statements concerning the Pope, unless you are ignorant of the agenda the Vatican and Islam has.

    Please refer to the attachment I have included. In this article your organization states the following, and I quote; “We recognize that Pope John Paul II has done more to promote reconciliation with the Jewish faith than perhaps all previous popes combined, as his personal witness of the Holocaust kindled a life-long, genuine attachment to the Jews.”

    If you look at the other attachment I have included, this same Pope kisses the Quran a book and religion that says kill the Jew and the Christian. Surely you are busy with another Jesus, another Gospel and another Spirit as Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 11:4 and you tolerate it!

    As usual I do not expect to hear from you, as you must be quite furious by now, but I am always open to hear from you. This, the Scriptures also tell me: Gal: 4:16: Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

    Why did I write this to you? Because of what Paul says: Tit: 1:10: For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision:
    Tim: 1:11: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.

    Coming with a message of peace and prosperity to gain funds, to help with the eventual gathering of the Jews in the exact small area where everyone of their enemies want them, making it easier to wipe them off the face of this planet forever and that without their Messiah. But fortunately God will intervene and will cause some to be saved. I would not like to give account to God for the cause you are busy with.

    I am glad that I never financially supported you, and will be forwarding a request to be removed from all your mailing lists.

    I am forwarding this letter to many other people and would encourage them to be like the Bereans in Acts 17, to discern before they act. Maybe rather to support the Jews for Jesus or an organization like Open Doors, naturally, with the proper discernment.

    I thank God for those who put themselves on the line to minister the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Jews and have the Holy Spirit use them for His service.

    If your reaction in Bloemfontein was not to put Jesus in the same light, as Buddha and you were more accommodating at answering my concerns satisfactorily, the scales might have tipped in your favor, instead what I heard, saw and experienced was antagonism and unholy behavior, on your part.

    I deem everything discussed in Bloemfontein with you and your reactions as being true as mentioned in this letter, my word is my word and my yea is my yea. I also have witnesses who were present me at the time.

    Once again, my prayer is that God will open your eyes to the serous and extreme importance, of taking the right Gospel of our Lord and Savoir to the Jews, before bringing them to the time of Jacob’s Trouble, to make them understand the difference between His second coming and His first and not just being another instrument in the hands of Satan to have them killed without Jesus, which is exactly what the Popes and Islam has always done and will do again.

    The fact that you “hide” the Jesus of the New Covenant brings to mind the following Scriptures;

    Joh: 2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
    1Joh: 2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    1Joh: 2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    1Joh: 2:24: Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    In the love and total commitment of His Service, willing to be martyred for His Names sake.

    Chris De Wet.

  6. Sonja says:

    Guys, we often critize fellow Believers! Stop looking at other’s
    faults and wrong doings and focus on God!!! The biggest gift you
    can give someone is to pray for them! EVEN IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THEM!
    We are brothers and sisters in God, we are all His children!
    Start praying that with every Believer gathering God to be present in all
    His Might and Glory and that He will protect each gathering. And if you feel
    it is not from Him = PRAY!!! Talk to Him, we are in no position to judge.
    Goodness, the world is evil enough, lets pray for one another!
    Blessings in His Name to all!

  7. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Sonja

    What makes you think we have not prayed for Angus Buchan to change his ways and stop following false doctrine!
    You are more concerned with Angus than the millions of people he is leading astray. Shame on you!
    What will you answer to God one day when He asks you why you took his side and lambased the one warning the sheep. But you judge my intentions instead.
    Angus is NOT a fellow believer, if he was he would be preaching the TRUTH, but he is not, he is preaching a false doctrine.
    Your false love sickens me.

  8. Sonja says:

    [deleted by DTW – no Sonja, it’s the other way around, you hate us for exposing the truth.]

  9. Carm says:

    Sonja, we do know them: we know them by their fruit.

    Of course we are commanded to judge:

    Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

    Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)

    So how do you propose we MARK and AVOID someone?

  10. Chris De Wet says:

    Sonja to judge is perfectly legitimate and it is a command in the Bible.

    I was also under the impression not to judge earlier as a believer – especially when reading :
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
    Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
    Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
    Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    The Greek word used here for judge is “Hypocretes” which means not to be a hypocrite. That is to say that if you are guilty of something you may not judge a fellow believer for the same thing. For example if I steal I am in no position to judge you if you also steal. Instead the Lord tells us in verse 5 to first get rid of that which we do THEN we will be able to judge – by taking the beam out of our own eye FIRST THEN we will see clearly to cast out the mote of a brother or sister’s eye. It does not say not to judge at all.

    That is why we should be as blameless as possible and that is why according to instruction to Timothy and Titus all Bishops who are appointed should be blameless – so that they could apply disciplinary measures in the church. It is impossible to apply disciplinary measures in the church without this judgment and when someone does he or she must not be guilty of the same sin.

    Paul applied discipline in the church – was he wrong in Judging?

    If judging is wrong then God’s precious Word opposes itself – is that possible?

    Here are some Scriptures you would want to consider:

    1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (Why is he judged of no man – because he is spiritual and judges himself to be blameless in all things then nobody would be in a position to judge him)

    1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?(This had to do with adultery in the congregation -Paul rebuked the Corinthians who did not judge the situation and even get rid of the person who was guilty)

    Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.(We may not judge without using God’s Word and ordinances but we are to judge accoring to His instructions)

    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.(Wev are to test all things otherwise we might be mislead)

    1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. (Why? beacsue of the false prophets – otherwise how will you be able to identify a false prophet?)

    Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? (We are living in the last days – yet there are those who say nobody must discern (judge) the times and the signs. These wre the words of the Lord Himself)

    Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.(Laeving the weightier things such as judgment was not pleasin to the Lord and is in the charackter of a Pharisee)

    Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. (how is it possible to stop their mouths without judging or discerning?)

    1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    No! we are INSTRUCED to judge especially in the last days when deception increases otherwise we will be deceived.

    God bless

  11. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Chris

    >> The ICEJ has proven to be an organization whereby no pro-active evangelisation to the Jews are permitted. Instead they are instructed to wait until a Jew asks them questions regarding the Messiah.

    Unbelievable. No wonder the stage crew who were Jews did not run for an ‘alter call’, instead just told everyone to get back to their seats. The Jews present where not one bit in the least concerned with the whole situation.

    So this ICEJ is nothing but an ecumenical money making machine disguised under the label to ‘spread the gospel to the Jews’.

    New World Order church it is…

  12. Chris De Wet says:

    Here is some more info regarding the ICEJ to be found on: reply-to-international-christian-embassy-jerusalem

    This letter was written by Jacob Prasch in 2011 – he however warned against the ICEJ a very long time ago!

    MAY 27TH, 2011
    This entry posted by MORIELDANNY
    Reply to International Christian Embassy Jerusalem
    May 27th, 2011 – London (UK)

    To : Jennifer Goddard and Jurgen Buhler

    International Christian Embassy Jerusalem

    Greetings in Yeshua and thank you for your e mail.

    As a believer in born again believer in Yeshua with an Israeli-Jewish family and a son who served in combat in the IDF (my own service was brief), it is indeed my prayer that the Lord will give ICEJ eyes to see that our Jewish people are perishing without a saving faith in the Messiah Yeshua, that Israel is heading to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble to make a covenant with death by a treaty with the Antichrist, and that the Talmudic Judaism of the rabbis rejecting Yeshua is a false religion.

    Obviously I and our ministry Moriel vigorously and actively oppose Antisemitism, Replacement Theology, and anti-Zionism as a visit to our website proves. Yet witholding the Gospel from Jewish people on their way to hell without it is not the love of Jesus; God will require their blood from our hands (Acts 20:26, Ezekiel 33:8).

    I do not say or believe that all believers are called to evangelize in a high profile way, but we are all called to evangelize. Local believers in Israel should share the Good News of Yeshua actively and ex-patriot organizations should do it in a discreet, low-key manner. But making agreements with the Israeli government and rabbis to not share Yeshua at all, published policies of not sharing Yeshua to Jews, or subscribing to the heresy of Dual Covenant Theology murders Jews spiritually just as Nazis and Islamic terrorists murder them physically. To withhold the only true message of hope and salvation in Yeshua is anti-Semitic in itself. The view that falsely claims that God will save them through the witness of our actions only without our words is a deception. Israel and the Jews must both see action and hear words; God’s Word declares, “How will they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14).

    Malcom Hedding’s ‘Tabernacles’ false teaching that “Jesus never came to die” is a lie of Satan as was your founder Van Der Hoven’s false teaching I have seen on video at a Morris Cerullo crusade, stating that Christians are only called to comfort Israel not evangelize them. A reading of Isaiah 40 in context proves categorically that the manner God commands to comfort them is with the Gospel—”Besora” (Isaiah 40:1, 9).

    Frankly, the long and shameful history of scandal that has defined the ICEJ with the deposition of Van Der Hoven, then Lukoff, etc. is nothing short of a disgrace and is why decent people involved with ICEJ at the begining such as Col. Orde Dobbie, the Watsons in Canada and Dr. Michael Harry pulled away from it. I know or knew all of them and they all told the same sad story.
    By all means, bless Israel and oppose anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in these treacherous times, and may God bless you richly for doing it. Stand also firmly against the false doctrine of Replacement Theology in the church. But above all, Israel and the Jews need Yeshua desperately. As the International Director of Jews For Jesus David Brickner wrote and published: “True Christian Zionists are unrepentant evangelists to the Jews; the others are fakes and phonies”. He is right.

    I write this letter in a spirit of Christian love as I appreciate all who love Israel and the Jews. I trust you will be able to accept this letter in the spirit in which it is intended. It is not my aim to attack you personally or cause any undue offense, but I must attempt to speak the truth in love.

    Sincerely In Jesus,

    J. Jacob Prasch
    Moriel Ministries

    “Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.” (Rom. 10:1)

  13. Estelle says:

    Thanks for the good article Deborah. :)
    I feel bad for these people (Angus etc.) that are so corrupted by their “extra-biblical” beliefs, but even more sad about the sheep following them. It’s as if they read the Bible in the way they want to (own interpretation)…believe what they want to believe, probably to feel better about themselves or something.

    I also believe that suffering and sickness that a believer experience always have a greater purpose and fits in somewhere into God’s will for us. Seeking healing from a healer is like making an idol or god of that person, where people go to him or her instead of going to God in prayer and waiting patiently for God’s true healing.

    God’s true healing for me doesn’t always mean physical healing, he heals our spirit and our sin to ultimately be with Him in heaven where there will be no more suffering or illness.
    (Hope I make sense)

    Deborah, do you still have that “blou rokkies” article I sent you long ago… I think the latter rain beliefs and those of the blou rokkies fits in to almost everything that Angus and the others believe.

  14. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Estelle

    >> do you still have that “blou rokkies” article I sent you long ago… I think the latter rain beliefs and those of the blou rokkies fits in to almost everything that Angus and the others believe.

    Ja, I must look for that… somewhere in my billion email inbox haha ;)

    [EDITED by DTW: Ahhh taa for the email!!]

  15. Martin Horan says:

    Yet again a brilliant reply, Deborah.

    I’m getting to the point where I’m no longer amazed by them. I’m beginning to expect them and would be surprised if they weren’t spot on.

    I have a friend who gave me a book by Angus Buchan. It depressed me that my friend was falling for that stuff. But he is constantly chasing after signs and wonders and refuses to read anything that contradicts his paradigms. So I was glad to read your incisive and Scriptural reply.

    When I read Sonja’s first comment I was about to mention that there are only two kinds of criticism: Criticism that is true, which is right and therefore fair; and criticism that is untrue which is wrong and therefore unfair. I was also going to make a few other points after I’d first moved on to read your, Carm’s and Chris’ replies. They mostly dealt with things I’d planned to say.

    (If either of of you gyts are looking in, thanks for your comments. I found them encouraging. They helped me to see I am not alone! I also feel this when I read Deborah’s articles.)

    I’d just like to say to Chris: I too love the Jews and Israel and have been close enough to some that I’ve even had Jews trying to get me to convert to Judaism. I wanted to do so when younger, knowing what “Christians” had done to Jews throughout history. I couldn’t imagine any Jew wanting to become a Christian. The very thought appalled me as the worst kind of treachery. Please remember I had been educated as a Catholic! But I had also come over some vile anti-Semitic statements by Protestants too. So I can sympathize to an extent with Jews who see Jesus as their enemy though I know they are wrong. I had more or less the same idea when I was younger. I became a Christian when I found a group that was pro-Jewish and pro-Israel which I joined. Then I read the works of various writers who were pro-Jews and identified that anti-Semites were false Christians.

    The sad thing is, this Christians Embassy group–I’ve never heard of them before–mean well but they are creating problems for Israel specifically and Jews generally. Thanks for letting me know about them. It’s something I can pray about. Antisemitism is spreading like wildfire these days and Jews everywhere do need to be encouraged and know that they have real friends.
    John Hagee’s pretty much the same as these Christian Embassy folk. I know people who think Hagee’s wonderful. His love of Israel, unfortunately, makes him overlook the greater picture. He too does not think Jews are to be evangelized. Strange how the apostles disagreed with that idea.

    Well, I just wanted to thank folk for their comments. It was all another education. Thanks.

  16. Robbie says:

    Debs said

    >>You have said something that I have been thinking for a long time.<<
    Me too. I am sure he was planted.

    Sonja.
    I really hope you will do your own research too. Hiding the truth for the sake of peace is worse that lying. It is called deception.
    But we got so use to do just that.

    I dare you to stop paying the likes of Angus and other pastors to read the Word for you and dig in yourself. Switch on Sonja!!.

    I have a very close relative stuck in that camp…

  17. Werner says:

    Debs, please don’t apologize, was just dotting down how I understand it – but as always I’m open for correction..I’m but a frail man…Spiros Zodiathes, which I respect and hold dear to, says the tongues in Cor are ecstatic tongues according to the Greek (he is Greek and a Greek scholar as well), but yet not biblical..anyhow – keep fighting the good fight! In the whole of the bible as we are to read it and view it, we know what tongues are and are not.

  18. Chris De Wet says:

    Hallo Werner.

    I also have Spiros Zodaites’s King James Hebrew – Greek Kay Word Study Bible as well as the Logos Bible Essentials software, but his footnotes are not all correct.

    We did a study regarding the tongues issue and also came to the conclusion that it is descriptive of a language.

    Even looking at what Paul calls the language of angels made me think that throughout the Bible where angels brought messages from God the message was plainly in the language directed to the specific audience
    I recall no place in the Bible where angels addressed people where an interpreter was requested.

    So people who say that the angelic language Paul spoke was a heavenly language do not have concrete proof that it was some or various ecstatic languages.

  19. Werner says:

    Hi Chris, I guess or rather I know none of us have it spot-on, and those who say they do, well – we should run from them too.

    Although simple, and it took me a few years to see, your observation is correct I believe, as for many things in Scripture – not all are explained, and we dare not make assumptions, rather explain the the unclear with the clear, and if there is no more clear, then we should not go into guess work.

    God does not want us to know everything…for one, if tongues were soooo important, and sooo spiritual, then surely Jesus and the rest of the N.T would have said so, but the Scriptures are silent on this, for obvious reasons, it is man who have crafted sinister doctrines to promote their own selfish beliefs.

    God bless

  20. Steve says:

    sorry, just read most of your article, and it is filled with errors, assumptions and what I am hoping, simple mistakes…

    you say, ‘i dont see the Holy Spirit being destructive’

    ok, when the Spirit destroys cancer, what is that?

    secondly,

    Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

    the Holy Spirit is representing Jehovah on earth, and as I read that, it appears to me, God killed those people for lying… pretty destrutive for them I thought.

    yes, there is so much nonsense in the ‘church’, or entities calling themselves the church, but the ability to make a blog and challenge people… ? let me put it another way, the Lord said, (paraphrase), ‘look at the works’ …

    ‘became to do and teach’ (acts 1)

    without the doing, miracles, healing, deliverances etc, what we have is an empty powerless gospel, so i ask any christian or truth-seeker or whatever your title is, if you are challenging things, are you demonstrating the gifts and the fruits of the Spirit, or just teaching and talking?

    take care and stay safe

    Steve

  21. Steve says:

    Regarding healing, and reading some of the comments…..

    People came to Jesus for healing; Jesus said the following

    John14:12-14
    Mark9:23
    Matthew8:19
    Luke10:19

    having experienced miraculous healing repeatedly in my own life, by God Himself, I urge people to stop coming up with reasons to turn christiantity into a theology or doctrines or studying greek etc etc…..the Lord has so much more for those who will believe Him; but ‘believing Him’ isnt hoping or being nice or anything like that…… this article is loaded with errors, and while I am sure there is a lot of good on this website, without the Spirit, it is all ‘dead letter’ – take care and stay safe

    Steve

  22. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Steve

    >> you say, ‘i dont see the Holy Spirit being destructive’
    >> ok, when the Spirit destroys cancer, what is that?

    I would say that is a silly comment. Chemotherapy destroys cancer cells too, does that mean Chemotherapy can destroy stages as well? Your logic is non compos mentis. Finally it is Jesus Christ that HEALS, not the Holy Spirit.

    >> God killed those people for lying… pretty destrutive for them I thought.

    Yes you said it, God killed then, not the Holy Spirit.

    I gave an exhaustive list in the article as to what the Holy Spirit does and does not do from the bible. You come along and quote scripture out of context and attribute things to the Holy Spirit that should not be. If you are going to comment, please read properly before you comment.

  23. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Steve

    You contract yourself from your first comment. In your first comment you say the Holy Spirit heals. I said, “Jesus Christ heals”. Now in this comment you say…”People came to Jesus for healing” Can you make up your mind as to who heals? Jesus or the Holy Spirit? Well I said it before, Jesus Christ heals.

    >> having experienced miraculous healing repeatedly in my own life,

    You are either talking nonsense, or you have been healed repeatedly, but not by Jesus Christ, but by the Kundalini spirit who masquerades as the Holy Spirit in today’s churches and has great satanic healing power. The Biblical Holy Spirit vs.The False Unholy Spirit of Fire

    I am deleting the rest of your comments, they are utter nonsense.

  24. Estelle says:

    Steve wrote:

    having experienced miraculous healing repeatedly in my own life

    The word repeatedly already makes it not true healing.
    The people who were healed by Jesus were HEALED and never came back for more healing?

    There are multiple examples of suffering or people who God did not heal.

    Take Paul for example leaving Trophimus while he was sick. 2 Timothy 4:20

    Paul himself in 2 Corinthians 12:7 talks about the thorn in the flesh asking God to let it depart from him, God’s reply was “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.”

    James and many more were killed by the sword, Isaiah was probably sawn in half. Hebrews 11:37

    Look at David who was suffering. Psalm 22 & 41
    Psalm 22:
    “6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
    7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
    8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
    15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
    you lay me in the dust of death.
    16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet
    17 I can count all my bones—they stare and gloat over me;
    18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.

    Psalm 41:
    8 They say, “A deadly thing is poured out on him; he will not rise again from where he lies.”
    9 Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who late my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
    10 But you, O Lord, be gracious to me, and raise me up, that I may repay them!

    Some scriptures regarding healing:
    James 5 v 15: And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

    2 Cor 1 v 3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction.

    2 Cor 4 v 16: So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. 17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,

    1 Peter 4 v 19: Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good

    1 Peter 5 v 10: And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. 11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

    2 Thess 1 v 5: This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering

    What would be the purpose of God giving us comfort, sending the Holy Spirit as our comforter if we all could just be miraculously healed physically? I did not even mention Jobs’ suffering…
    All of us will go trough afflictions, troubles, suffering and trials but we have Jesus as our Blessed Hope and the Holy spirit as our comforter and we have faith in our God… as we know the time of suffering is short.

  25. Michael says:

    Steve wrote…”without the doing, miracles, healing, deliverances etc, what we have is an empty powerless gospel,

    Gosh…some people either miss the point completely or they take Jesus’s dying on the cross lightly? The Lord Jesus Christ came to save sinners from ETERNAL DEATH and give them a chance to repent and accept Him as Lord and Saviour and give them ETERNAL LIFE instead of spending eternity (thats for ever and ever} in a place called HELL. That’s not a nice place to be…being a condemned prisoner on death row must be paradise compared to this.

    And you call it “empty and powerless”…salvation alone is enough to get excited about and if preached correctly turns the individual receiver inside out. Healings, signs and sensationalism and ear tickling is NOT the gospel.

    That is the whole point!

  26. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Steve wrote…”without the doing, miracles, healing, deliverances etc, what we have is an empty powerless gospel,”

    This is what the bible says in answer to your statement…

    The Pharisees and scribes said, “Show us a sign. Prove who you are.” But Jesus answered them with…

    Matt 16:4
    4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Matt 12:39; Luke 11:29; Jonah 1:17)

    because…

    John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    1Pet 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

    2Cor 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight

  27. Chris De Wet says:

    Steve wrote: “I urge people to stop coming up with reasons to turn christiantity into a theology or doctrines or studying greek etc etc”

    This is problematic because Christians are INSTRUCTED to study to find themselves approved by the very Word of God: 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Maybe Steve should try studying the Bible in order to better discern between what is good and what is evil – also Biblical: Heb 5:13- 14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    Concerning doctrines – the Bible teaches:

    1. One should discern false doctrine an separate from it – 1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2. One should take heed of doctrine – 1Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    3. Be nourished in good doctrine – 1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
    4. Stay within correct doctrine – Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers
    5. Plus- 2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    6. Obey doctrine – Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    Follow the doctrine of the LORD not those who say ‘do not give heed to doctrine’ –
    Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
    Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
    Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

    There are many more Scriptures teaching and instructing us to abide in the right doctrine and to avoid wrong doctrine.

    Wrong doctrine will cause division from true believers -Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    Concerning Theology:
    “Theos” is the Greek word for God – hence understanding Greek.
    Theology is to study everything about God derived from the Greek.

    Maybe Steve should consider studying the Scriptures for him to find sound doctrine and to have a better understanding of theology????

  28. christine says:

    Sorry that it is the first time i see this article I personally think all off you who are going on about what are the truth and what not ,I really feel sorry for you to speak about a man of God like Angus the way you are speaking.And before you try to say I am a follower off him I would like to tell you I am not I listen to some of his sermons when It comes my way.Whatever happens to him and whatever he experienced is none of your busineses if it is true or not who are you to decide it which manner God will appear to anyone or how He will minister to somebody or how he will let the Holy Ghost fall upon His people .All I pick up amongst you all is that you are jealous start living a live like he do maybe just maybe you will be lucky to experience something so supernatural which happened to him.I also hope you do not call yourself children of God because children of God will watch their mouths and first consult God if your opinion are the right opinion christians like you are making me so sick I want to puke.I wonder what makes you think that your doctrine are right we can all take scripture and do with whatever suits us .Then another thing Mr Chris you are accusing Angus of being part of th newe world order I think you cannot stand to see how much God has blessed him and that is why you say such things poor you I rather take my chances listening to angus preaching rather listening to you because if a man like you can critize a man of God like you do I shiffer to think what you can say about all your brothers and sisters in Christ ask God to search you heart and to work with you on the way He prefers to work with yoy and leave people that have supernatural experiences alone .I do not think you understand it I think you are living under the law I will pray for you ande everybody else on this site that had something to say about this article.

  29. christine says:

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Steve
    Hi Deborah another thing what akes you so full of the spirit that you and your friends are the only right ones that you even have the decency to delete other peoples comments everbody has the right to their own opinion your people are spriritually so fat that you are earthly no good..

  30. christine says:

    Martin Horan wrote:

    Yet again a brilliant reply, Deborah.
    I’m getting to the point where I’m no longer amazed by them. I’m beginning to expect them and would be surprised if they weren’t spot on.
    I have a friend who gave me a book by Angus Buchan. It depressed me that my friend was falling for that stuff. But he is constantly chasing after signs and wonders and refuses to read anything that contradicts his paradigms. So I was glad to read your incisive and Scriptural reply.
    When I read Sonja’s first comment I was about to mention that there are only two kinds of criticism: Criticism that is true, which is right and therefore fair; and criticism that is untrue which is wrong and therefore unfair. I was also going to make a few other points after I’d first moved on to read your, Carm’s and Chris’ replies. They mostly dealt with things I’d planned to say.
    (If either of of you gyts are looking in, thanks for your comments. I found them encouraging. They helped me to see I am not alone! I also feel this when I read Deborah’s articles.)
    I’d just like to say to Chris: I too love the Jews and Israel and have been close enough to some that I’ve even had Jews trying to get me to convert to Judaism. I wanted to do so when younger, knowing what “Christians” had done to Jews throughout history. I couldn’t imagine any Jew wanting to become a Christian. The very thought appalled me as the worst kind of treachery. Please remember I had been educated as a Catholic! But I had also come over some vile anti-Semitic statements by Protestants too. So I can sympathize to an extent with Jews who see Jesus as their enemy though I know they are wrong. I had more or less the same idea when I was younger. I became a Christian when I found a group that was pro-Jewish and pro-Israel which I joined. Then I read the works of various writers who were pro-Jews and identified that anti-Semites were false Christians.
    The sad thing is, this Christians Embassy group–I’ve never heard of them before–mean well but they are creating problems for Israel specifically and Jews generally. Thanks for letting me know about them. It’s something I can pray about. Antisemitism is spreading like wildfire these days and Jews everywhere do need to be encouraged and know that they have real friends.
    John Hagee’s pretty much the same as these Christian Embassy folk. I know people who think Hagee’s wonderful. His love of Israel, unfortunately, makes him overlook the greater picture. He too does not think Jews are to be evangelized. Strange how the apostles disagreed with that idea.
    Well, I just wanted to thank folk for their comments. It was all another education. Thanks.

    Shame Martin poor you just one word you would like to be like John Hagee if you know Gods word as well as you say Gods word say do not touch my annointed ones and for your infromation John Hagee and Angus are Gods annointed ones stop be jealous.

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