Not Wrath, but Rapture – Will the Church Participate in the Great Tribulation?
There is an onslaught by Satan on snatching believers away from The Blessed Hope. This onslaught is so intense that hardly anyone believes in a pre-tribulation rapture anymore, and if you do believe that Jesus would dare come and fetch His Church before the tribulation starts you are branded a heretic for something as sincere as doing exactly as Jesus told us to do, “watch and pray”.
Satan is turning the Christians attention to the world, where Jesus wants your attention turned to Him waiting for Him to rescue us as He did Noah before the flood.
Now-a-days every so called Christian is moving in the direction of either Pre-millennialism/Post-tribulation (rapture takes place at the end of the tribulation, this view is based on Replacement theology as there is no distinction between the Church and Israel), Post-millennialism (an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ’s second coming as occurring after the Millennium – this view is rare. ), Preterist (interprets prophecies of the Bible, especially Daniel and Revelation, as events which have already happened in the first century A.D.), or an Amillenial view (rejection of the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year long, physical reign on the earth).
It is only a small handful of Christians who are holding onto a Pre-tribulation view which is Jesus’ promise of The Blessed Hope.
The excuse for the attacks by the above adherents of other eschatologies is that people who hold to Pre-tribulation views (if Jesus does not return) will be shocked that they have entered the tribulation and end up denying Jesus Christ. How they can make such a ludicrous statement is beyond me because if one is GENUINELY saved, no matter what happens your love for Jesus Christ will hold true till the end. If that is the ‘logic‘ they want to use then I will use the same logic against them…If Jesus comes, He will not take you because you changed your entire doctrine to follow that of the world and not keep your eyes on Him as He asked you too. You were looking for the anti-Christ; that when Jesus does come, because you are not looking for Him, He will will not take you. How do you think you will react knowing you were left behind? Is it not true that it is mankind’s nature to hold a grudge and find any reason to hate before he finds a reason to love (because we are sinful) – and now you have been left behind by Jesus Christ, when you thought you would be taken – your reasoning was that, even if you didn’t believe in the Rapture, and believed in other strange doctrines, He would still take you, but now others have gone and you have been left to suffer through the tribulation; how easily would you give up on Jesus Christ?
I do believe the latter argument would have far more people in mental anguish, wondering why they were not taken, than the pre-tribulation person pondering why Jesus has not come to rapture the church as yet; and if the tribulation starts it’s still confirmation that the bible is 100% accurate – Jesus is who He says He is and I was the one who made a mistake, it wont change my love for Jesus.
I would rather look for Jesus, keep my eyes set on Him, and Watch and Pray, because my eyes are not set on what is going on in this world, my eyes are set firmly on Jesus Christ, and I want to be with Jesus Christ more than anything else.
Satan is doing his best to snatch people away from The Blessed Hope, and he is winning as the numbers that are turning their backs on Jesus’ return by the day are astounding. Satan can’t wait to meet you in the tribulation, and it’s not going to be pleasant.
Not Wrath…but Rapture
Will the Church Participate in the Great Tribulation?
By Dr. Harry Ironside
1) WHAT IS MEANT BY THE TERM “THE GREAT TRIBULATION”?
The careful student of the prophetic scriptures cannot fail to observe that in both the Old and New Testaments the Spirit of God speaks of a trial involving the pouring out of divine wrath on men. This is known as… …. “the great tribulation,” ….”the time of Jacob’s trouble,” ….”the coming hour of temptation,” ….”the day of the Lord,” and also designated by other striking terms This specific period of judgement is clearly distinguished from the ordinary trials and tribulations to which the people of God have been subjected in all dispensations, and which are promised to the church of God at the present time. “In the world,” said our Blessed Lord, “ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.” “We must,” declared the apostle Paul, “through much tribulation enter the kingdom of God.” Speaking for all saints, Paul could say, “We glory in tribulation.” So long as Satan is the god of this world and believers are on this earth, there will be trial and tribulation to face. This arises from the very nature of things. The world is opposed to everything that is of the Spirit of God. The Christian’s trials arise from the adverse circumstances through which he is passing, like Israel of old journeying through the wilderness. More than this, there is the direct opposition of the enemy: “All they that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” But there is one character of tribulation that God’s children in this age will never have to know, and that is exposure to divine wrath.“God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” We look for His return as our deliverer from the coming wrath. This is a principle of great importance when it comes to defining the church’s relationship to the great tribulation, when the vials of wrath will be poured out on guilty Christendom and apostate Judaism.
Many have taught in the past, and some still teach, that the Old Testament passages referring to the great tribulation were all fulfilled in the days of Israel’s sufferings under the nations, after the fall of Jerusalem, particularly in the era of Antiochus Epiphanes, who is sometimes called the Old Testament antichrist. But a careful examination of the scriptures of the prophets having to do with this time of trial, and a comparison of these with New Testament declarations, make this position absolutely untenable. Others have supposed that the great tribulation referred either to the days of persecution under pagan emperors of Rome for two bloody centuries, following the death of the apostle Paul, or perhaps the even more fearful persecutions under the papacy during the dark ages. But there are very definite statements made by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself that positively negate any such view and make it evident that this solemn period of judgement is still in the future. Will the church of God or any part of it go into or pass through this day of grief and sorrow? In order to answer this question correctly, it will be necessary first of all to consider carefully a number of scriptures indicating the nature of and the time for the great tribulation. The first scripture that definitely speaks of this era is Deuteronomy 4:26-31. This is part of the message that Moses gave to Israel on the plains of Moab before they entered the land of Canaan, shortly before their great leader resigned his responsibility and went up into Mount Nebo to be put to sleep by God until the day of the Lord’s coming. He said to the people, as he warned them of the folly of departure from God:
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.”
These words have been literally fulfilled. For many centuries Israel has been scattered among the nations, and even though many of them have recently returned to Palestine, the day of their dispersion is not yet ended. This scattering was because of their sin and their violation of God’s holy law. In v 28 and v 29 Moses continued, saying:
“And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.”
This last verse has not yet been fulfilled. Evidently it does not refer to the return from Babylon. It has to do with the final repentance of the nation when they will be brought back from among all the nations on the earth. The scattering referred to was not simply that which took place in the days of Nebuchadnezzar, but rather the worldwide dispersion following the destruction of Jerusalem forty years after the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Never since that day have the people of Israel turned whole-heartedly to God. Consequently they have not yet been restored to their land. The present movement is not a return to God but simply a natural awakening, leading many to go back to Palestine while still in unbelief. Such a return is elsewhere predicted in scripture, but is not what is referred to here. The circumstances that will result in the repentance of the nation are indicated in the verses that follow:
“When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice: (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God:) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers, which he sware unto them” (v 30 and v 31).
It seems that we have here the first definite mention of the coming tribulation. Certainly v 30 does not refer to the age-long sorrows through which the people of Israel have passed, but to a definite set period of tribulation in “the latter days.” This term, as any student of prophecy knows, refers to the closing days of God’s dealings with this nation before they will be restored to Himself. There are no other clear references to this same period until we come to the book of Psalms. Many of these psalms give us experiences that Israel will be called to pass through in that time of distress and show us what the glorious outcome will be. Space does not permit dwelling on the testimony of the Psalms. Let us pass on to the prophets. There are many passages that we might quote from the book of the prophet Isaiah. Let us consider two. In Isaiah 13:6-13 we have a graphic description of the day of the Lord’s indignation.
“Howl ye: for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt: and they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them: they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another: their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And it will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to case, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold: even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.”
The phrase by “the land” means, as it does throughout all the prophets, the land of Palestine or the home of God’s earthly people. “He shall destroy the sinners out of it”: this will be one result of the tribulation the nation will go through. The apostates will be destroyed but a remnant will turn to the Lord. Notice that there are certain supernatural events which must take place at that time, affecting, as our Lord himself later indicated, the stars of heaven and the constellations. The darkening of the sun and the shrouding of the moon are here definitely predicted. Keep these things in mind as we shall come across them again. Not only will the people of Israel be punished in that day, but the judgements will fall on the world because of pride and arrogance. These verses provide a most vivid description of the end of our boasted civilization, when God is left out. They show us what this present evil world is hastening toward. They tell us what apostate Israel will have to endure and what unbelieving gentiles will be obliged to go through. We may get a little idea of at least part of the meaning of this prophecy if we remember what happened to the great empire of Russia. How little there was of God for many years, and how corrupt and false the professing church. Evangelicals were terrible persecuted. Pride and arrogance prevailed, until God overthrew the ancient regime and permitted the awful conditions that have succeeded it, as if in answer to the sin and corruption of those who professed to own his name. His people have suffered dreadfully in that tribulation. But the wrath of God has not been poured out, nor have the saints known divine indignation. Turn now to Isaiah 17:4-11:
“And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean….that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images. In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation. Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation,and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips, In the day shalt thou make thy plants to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.”
In v 4-7 we see the remnant of Israel in the latter days, and in v 8-10 we see the conditions that will prevail in the land of Palestine. Already we see everything working up towards this. Notice the striking prophecy of v 10, where God told the people that because of their long years of rebellion against him, their land shall be denuded of tress, that just prior to the day of their great tribulation they shall plant that land with pleasant plants and shall set it with strange slips. It is a remarkable fact that in recent years many millions of plants and slips have been imported into and planted in the soil of Palestine. At the present moment the Jewish leaders are congratulating themselves that the day of their long trial is almost ended, and that their ancient patrimony will soon be again a land flowing with milk and honey. God has said,
“In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and desperate sorrow.”
Whose grief and whose desperate sorrow will this be? The answer to this question will settle the problem that is before us. In this passage God was speaking of Israel’s apostasy and His dealings with them. When our blessed Lord was on the earth, Palestine was one of the most fruitful of lands. Josephus’s account of the conditions prevailing in Galilee before the siege of Jerusalem is almost unbelievable, so productive was that land and so thickly populated. But they did not know the time of their visitation, and when the Saviour was rejected as Messiah and His authority refused, God rejected the people and cast them out and blasted their land. Since then Palestine has been like a great desert, with here and there an oasis, unable to support a large population. The climate of that country has also been changed, chiefly because of the fact the large forests on the Lebanon mountains have been destroyed. The Turkish government has only helped the desolation. The Turk never planted a tree where he cut one down, and in the last hundred years of his rule he put a tax on trees, which was so exorbitant that the people found it cheaper to cut down their orchards and groves than to pay this tax. But ever since World War I they have been busy planting the land with pleasant plants and setting it with strange slips. If we did not have the word of prophecy we might take it for granted that the new day of Israel’s final blessing is dawning. But as we study what God has revealed, our hearts might well bleed as we realize, what these poor Jews are going back to. How little they understand that this, their hour of tribulation, is still in the future. How little they realize that they must pass through it before they recognize the Messiah their fathers rejected. Now let us turn to the prophet Jeremiah 30:4-9:
“And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the Lord: We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it;it is even the time of JACOB’S TROUBLE: but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them”
Reading this chapter carefully and the one that follows will give us many more particulars in regard to the subject that is before us. What I particularly wish to stress here is the different name now given to the era of tribulation. It is called specifically “the time of Jacob’s Trouble,” and it is important that we have this clearly in mind. IT IS NOT THE TIME OF THE CHURCH’S TROUBLE. As we have seen, we are having our time of trouble now. We have been enduring tribulation ever since the beginning of the church’s testimony here on earth. But the passage before us refers to something very different, a time of unprecedented distress that is called “Jacob’s Trouble.” If Christian students of the scriptures would always distinguish carefully what prophecy has to say concerning the Jew, the gentile, and the church of God, it would not be difficult to clear up this entire subject. It is by confusing these three distinct classes that many unscriptural theories are foisted on the people of God. Observe that the time of Jacob’s trouble is to be immediately followed by the repentance of the remnant and their deliverance from gentile oppression, when once more they will serve the Lord their God. The true Son of David will be recognized as their Messiah and will be seated on David’s throne: David means “beloved” and God the Father has already designated the Lord Jesus Christ as His beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. He was refused as the Son of David when He came in grace the first time. He will be received in that very character when He returns in power and glory. From many passages we might quote in the book of Ezekiel. I will confine myself to only one selection, found in Ezekiel 20:33-38: “
As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: and I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.”
Note carefully that here too this time of divine fury poured out on the people is to be Israel’s culminating experience immediately preceding their restoration to the Lord, when He will purge from among them the rebels and those that transgress, and will bring the redeemed remnant out of the lands of the gentiles into their own country, revealing Himself to them as the Shepherd of Israel. By no possible system of sound exegesis can these experiences be made to refer to the church of God. The Lord tells us why He will permit this time of trouble. It is to be a judgement on those in Israel who rebel against Him. It will be the time when he will separate the remnant from the rebels. He will cause that remnant to pass under the Shepherd’s rod and will acknowledge them as His own flock. The book of Daniel, as we know, is the great prophecy of the times of the gentiles and gives us Israel’s experiences under the domination of the nations. One could pause over many passages, but we draw attention particularly to Daniel 12:1-4: “
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”
In Daniel 11 God gave us a remarkable picture of his dealings with the nations, from the overthrow of the Persian empire right on to the time of the end immediately preceding the Messiah’s second coming. In that day Israel will be passing through a time of trouble such as never was. But what will the result be? God says,
“Thy people, [that is, Daniel’s people, the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” or those who are regenerated. For centuries they have been sleeping in the dust of the earth. Some take this literally, but it actually refers to their present condition as scattered among the gentiles. But in this time of trouble some, referring to the remnant, shall awake to everlasting life, and some, referring to the apostate, shall awake to shame and everlasting contempt. This era of trouble is to prevail until the end-time. Evidently the Spirit of God has in view that particular period spoken of by Moses as the tribulation of the latter days. The minor prophets abound with awesome descriptions of this same day of distress, but we must content ourselves with two more Old Testament quotations. Notice Joel 3:9-11:
“Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles: Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares to swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.”
It is the call of God to the heathen to come up into the land of Palestine for the great conflict of the latter days when Israel will be back in the land in unbelief. The fearful wars of that time will go on until the Lord Himself descends with a host, designated here as “Thy mighty ones,” Who are these mighty ones? If we had nothing else to guide us, we might think of them as angels. Undoubtedly angels will be in His train, as many scriptures show. But we shall see as we go on that these mighty ones are the saints of the past and present dispensations, who shall have been caught up to be with the Lord and glorified before the great tribulation begins. Zechariah 14:1-4 in his last chapter described the great Armageddon gathering, and tells us of the last siege of Jerusalem immediately preceding the Lord’s return:
“Behold, the day of the Lord cometh….Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And His feet shall stand that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the … north, and half of it toward the south.”
Here we have a wonderful description of the appearing of our Lord. This proves that the great tribulation does not refer to any past experiences which the Jews have gone through, not yet to any experiences the church has suffered, but to that time of Jacob’s trouble which immediately precedes the revelation of Jesus Christ from heaven to set up his kingdom and reign over all the earth in righteousness. From the Old Testament, then, we have learned that the tribulation will take place in the latter days of Israel’s history. The people who will feel it most will be the Jews, but all the apostate nations of the gentiles will also share the afflictions. It will not be a time of mere providential judgements but a time when there will be terrific and startling signs in the heavens and on earth, and men will be obliged to acknowledge that God Himself is dealing with them in His wrath and great indignation. All past tribulations have been merely natural and providential. But this time of trouble will be characterized by supernatural events that will add to the horrors under which men will live, so that they will desire to die, and death shall flee from them. We have also seen that this tribulation goes right on to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ with His mighty ones to rule with the rod of iron. During the trial, a remnant of Israel will be separated from the apostate part of the nation and will turn in repentance to the Lord and be led to recognize Him when He comes. This remnant He will own as the true Israel and in them “all Israel shall be saved.” They will be the handful of corn on the top of the mountains, the gleanings of the olives on the topmost bought, that will eventually “blossom and bud and fill the place of the whole earth with fruit.”
Now let us turn to the New Testament and see if we can get any further light on this day of grief and desperate sorrow. Look first at Matthew 24. In this portion of the kingdom gospel, our Lord portrayed the conditions that will prevail on earth right up to his second coming. He does not, however, speak definitely of the church, which is His body, or of any testimony such as we now know. This great prophecy was given before the revelation of the mystery and it is in keeping with the older predictions. Our Lord revealed to us the conditions that will prevail in the land of Palestine where there will be a remnant who cleave to him and love His name immediately preceding His second coming. In verse 15 He indicated the beginning of a time of special trial “when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place.” This carries us back to Daniel 12, and is clearly the starting point of the great tribulation, which He described in Matthew 24:16-29:
“Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders: insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert: go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers: believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west: so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will be eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”
Note particularly that all of this is Jewish, and all refers to the land of Palestine, except as the gentile nations are linked with the conflict of that day. Here we have the definite name given by the Lord Himself to this period of trial, “the great tribulation.” That it is exactly the same period spoken of by the prophets from Moses to Malachi is clear in the verses that follow, taken from Matthew 24:30-31, where we read:
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
This makes it plain that the great tribulation has never taken place in the past, either in connection with Israel’s experiences or those of the church. It could not refer to Israel’s sufferings under Antiochus Epiphanes, for our Lord spoke of it as in the future. It cannot refer to their sufferings in the days of Titus and Vespasian, for those experiences did not culminate in the return of the Son of God. Neither can it by any possibility be fitted into the experiences of the church, either in the days of the pagan emperors or the papal persecution, for both of these are long since in the past and the Son of man has not yet returned. His coming will definitely put an end to the great tribulation. We can only conclude therefore that it is still in the future and the scriptures we have considered show that it has to do with the future of Israel, not of the church.
2) THE COMING HOUR OF TEMPTATION
It might be well to compare the testimony given in Matthew’s gospel with the records of both Mark and Luke.
In Mark 13:14-27 we have a passage almost parallel to the one in Matthew, a careful reading of which only confirms what we have already seen, namely, that the great tribulation is still in the future, and that it ends with the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory. In Luke 21 it is evident that considerable time must elapse between the overthrow of Jerusalem under Titus and this coming of the Son of man, Jerusalem’s destruction is predicted in v 20-24:
“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains: and let them which are in the midst of it depart out: and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
Notice particularly that following the downfall of the holy city and the desolation of Palestine, Jerusalem’s treading down or subjection to the nations is to last until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled. This expression, “the times of the Gentiles,” is not used anywhere else in scripture, though a similar term is found in Ezekiel 30:3:
“For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day: it shall be the time of the heathen.”
The heathen are the gentiles. Ezekiel is referring there to the triumph of Nebuchadnezzar over Israel and the powers to which they turn for help. Egypt and Ethiopia. The times of the gentiles began with Nebuchadnezzar. They go on until the return of the Son of man. Who will come as the Stone that smites the feet of the image of gentile supremacy, breaking it to pieces and scattering the dust to the four winds of the earth, then becoming a great mountain and filling the whole world. The actual circumstances immediately preceding this coming are given in Luke 21:25-27:
“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars: and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring: Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”
The signs referred to here are the supernatural events that we have already seen will take place during the great tribulation, while the conditions set forth in Luke 21:26 show us the effects of these things in the hearts of humankind. This period of tribulation culminates in the shaking of the powers of heaven. Then the Son of man will be seen descending in a cloud to take His kingdom and reign in righteousness. A careful consideration of many scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament prophets, would how us that when the Lord thus returns, He will smite apostate Israel and the rebellious gentile world with judgement. They will be destroyed at His presence. On the other hand, a remnant of Israel will not only be spared from judgement, but will welcome Him as their long-looked-for King and Messiah. A great multitude of gentiles will be saved from the wrath that will fall on the worshipers of the beast and will form the nucleus of our Lord’s kingdom on this earth for a thousand years. This is the predicted program for the coming of the Son of man.*
The term “the coming of the Son of man” never refers to that particular aspect of the second advent for which the church is taught to look. When our Lord addressed Israel when He was on this earth He used this expression over and over again. In John 14 our Lord announced an aspect of His return that is NOT depicted in the Synoptics. He spoke of coming to receive His own to be with Himself. This is the first clear word we have in the New Testament regarding what is commonly called the rapture. This particular aspect is always distinguished from the coming of the Son of man. With the above facts in mind, let us now turn to Revelation 3:10- 11.
Writing to the angel of the church in Philadelphia, our Lord said: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation [of trial], which shall come upon all the world [habitable earth], to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly:hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.”
These letters to the seven churches set forth “the things which are,” that is, the conditions prevailing in the professing church of God on earth throughout the present dispensation. Until our Lord returns, churches will be found in the moral and spiritual condition of those depicted here. These seven letters set forth the characteristic features of seven distinct periods of church history from apostolic days until the end of her testimony in this scene. The warnings and exhortations and promises in these seven letters are for all the church of God throughout the dispensation. Addressing those who are shown to be genuine, who have kept Christ’s word and not denied His name, which is the least that could be said of any true believer; we have this definite promise that such will be kept from the coming hour of trial, which is to fall on the entire habitable earth. The term “habitable earth” is a translation of the Greek word oikoumene, which was used in apostolic days to distinguish that part of the world which was in subjection to the Roman empire and which is the proper sphere of prophecy, from all the rest of the world whose inhabitants were called barbarians. It is on this Roman earth that the vials of divine wrath will be poured out in all their intensity in the days of the great tribulation. Those who will be particularly exposed to these judgements are distinguished as “dwellers on the earth.” This expression is used again and again in Revelation. A careful consideration of every passage in which it is found will make it plain that it refers not simply to people who live on this globe, but to those who have despised the heavenly calling and whose hopes and affections are all centered on this earth. In other words, they are the same as those spoken of in Philippians 3, who have spurned the heavenly calling and who “mind earthly things.”
Now this promise expressly declares that real believers of this dispensation, that is, the true church, will be kept from this coming hour of trial. They have not been kept from the frequent trials and tribulations to which Christians throughout the past centuries have been exposed, but they will be kept from this particular hour. It is evident that the Spirit of God in so speaking was using a term which Christians generally were expected to understand. If any ask, “What is the hour of temptation or trial, coming on the entire earth, from which we shall be kept?” the hour of temptation is that hour of trial so frequently spoken of elsewhere in scripture. We have seen something of what the Old Testament and also the four gospels have to say concerning it. Let us consider references to the hour of temptation in the epistles.
First Thessalonians is the earliest of Paul’s letters that the Spirit of God preserved for the edification of the church. In this letter the second coming of Christ was presented as the imminent hope of the saints. No one can read the latter part of chapter 4 thoughtfully without seeing that the Spirit of God intended the church to live in the daily expectation of our Lord’s return. No one can possibly live in the daily expectation of the coming of the Son of man as set forth in the Synoptic Gospels unless he knows that he is in the very closing days of the great tribulation. Consequently, the hope of the Lord’s return set forth in Thessalonians must of necessity be a different thing to the expectation of His coming to set up His kingdom, and careful consideration of the passage referred to only serves to make this clearer. It is the Lord’s coming for His saints whereas the other is His coming with them. Now in chapter 1 in this epistle, Paul spoke of the conversion of the Thessalonians 1:9-10, and the testimony they were giving to the world outside, and he said:
“For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come”.
The last clause, it is generally conceded, does not exactly represent what the apostle wrote. The Revised Standard Version translates it, “Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” J.N. Darby rendered it, “Jesus, our Deliverer from the coming wrath,” Dr. Young was very explicit: he translated it, “Jesus who is rescuing us from the anger that is coming.” The point is that it is not simply that we are looking for our Lord as the One Who has delivered us from eternal wrath, but we look for him as the one who is coming to snatch us away from the wrath that is soon to all on earth. This agrees with the promise in Revelation 3:10. And it is in this way that the church will be kept from that hour of trial. Before the judgments fall the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, the dead in Christ will be raised, and the living saints changed, and we shall be snatched away, caught up to be with Him before the indignation is poured out on this guilty scene.
Turn now to 2 Thessalonians 2. As we read it carefully, let us bear in mind what has already been before us. In order to see the viewpoint both of the apostle himself and of those to whom he was writing at that particular time, it will be well to consider certain facts that may be clearly deduced from a careful study of the entire letter. It is evident that the coming of the Lord had a large place in the hearts and minds of these particular saints. Some among them had become unbalanced on the subject, and were teaching that they were already entering into the time of great tribulation. They believed that the day of the Lord was practically upon them. They were endeavoring to substantiate this teaching by the use of a forged letter purporting to come from the apostle Paul, and the advocates of this system declared that the Spirit had revealed these things to them. Therefore the saints were becoming unsettled, losing the blessedness of the hope of the Lord’s return for His own.They feared they were already entering the great tribulation, and that the next event would be the coming of the Son of man. Notice carefully 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2:
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”
The Revised Standard Version reads, “To the effect that the day of the Lord is just at hand.”
The best manuscript authority authenticates this. The day of Christ is not the same thing as the day of the Lord. The day of Christ refers to the time when believers will stand in their glorified bodies at Christ’s judgement seat. But the day of the Lord is the time when His judgements will be poured out on the earth, and He will descend and take the kingdom. The apostle reminded these believers of what he had already written in his previous epistle. They were not to look for the day of the Lord but for the return of our Saviour to deliver them from the coming wrath. So he pleaded with them in view of these facts, that “by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him,” we are not to be troubled or distressed, no matter what assertions others might make in regard to the day of trouble being already on us. The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him must take place before that time of distress can begin. This is exactly what we insist on today, we who do not believe that the church will go through the great tribulation. Our daily expectation is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. This must precede the judgments. The day of the Lord cannot begin until after it takes place.
Let me use an illustration for which I am indebted to another, though I cannot recall to whom. Suppose that a great city is in rebellion against its rightful sovereign, but there are in that city certain loyalists who who grieve over the defection of the rest, and are faithful to their king. Word comes that the offended monarch and his great army are on the way to the city to subdue or destroy it. Naturally the loyal citizens are anxious and troubled. They do not want to be exposed to the fire of the royal army and they manage to get word out to the king declaring their loyalty and asking his consideration. Word comes back that his standard will be planted on a certain mountain outside the city before the bombardment begins. When that standard is seen on the mountain, all the loyalists are instructed to leave the city under protection of the king, who will make special arrangements to guard them from destruction. Soon the van of the army appears. More and more troops arrive and surround the doomed city. Great guns are being placed at advantageous points on the outlying hills and all preparations for the shelling of the city are being made. Rumours of all sorts are being circulated. The bombing is to begin tonight, or tomorrow, or the next day. The loyalists are becoming nervous and anxious, but in some way a message reaches them. “I beseech you my the coming of the king, the lifting up of the standard on the mountain, and your gathering together unto him, be not troubled because of what you see in the way of preparation.” The messenger assures them that not one shell will fall on the city until they are safely gathered unto him outside the wall. And so their hearts are quieted. One day the standard is uplifted. A regiment of cavalry comes careering over the plain, and at the same moment the loyalists, acting by preconcerted arrangement, leave the city and are immediately protected by the royal horsemen. Soon they gather about the king, prostrating themselves at his feet and attesting their faithfulness. Then the attack on the city begins.
Like all human illustrations, I realize this one does not fully picture the conditions that are to prevail at the Lord’s return, but it may at least help to make clear what the apostle means in these opening verses, and it will prepare us to understand what follows:
“Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a falling away [the apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”
The “day” is the day of trial and distress that we have been occupied with, but it will not come until the apostasy is fully manifest. There cannot be complete apostasy so long as the church of God is in this world. No matter how much there may be in the way of unfaithfulness to Christ and His truth, our Lord has declared, “Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” As long as the church is in the word, it is being led in His triumph. There may be individual apostates, but there cannot be complete apostasy. But when the church has been caught up to be with Christ, then the apostasy in all its fullness will arrive. Out of that condition of things the son of perdition will arise, 2 Thessalonians 2:4:
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”
This is the sinister character whose awful features are dimly seen in both Testaments as one of the dominant actors in the last days. While not for one moment condoning the abomination of the papacy, it is not logically possible to link this personage with that system as a whole, nor with any individual pope of the past or present. The popes at their worst have all professed to act as vicars of Christ. They have not exalted themselves above all that is called God or that is worshiped. But the man of sin will be an absolutely self-deified atheist. He will recognize no God but himself. His rise to power is evidently linked with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, spoken of by Daniel and referred to by our Lord as the true starting point of the great tribulation. In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-10 we are told of one who hinders this full manifestation of evil until the set time appointed of God:
“And now ye know what withholdeth [hinders] that he might be revealed in His [own] time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now letteth [hinders] will let [hinder] until He be taken out of the way. And then shall that “Wicked” [one] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved”
There has been a great deal of controversy about this passage. Some claim that the hinderer is Satan who has his place in the heavens until after the rapture of the church, and then he shall be taken out of the way. Others insist that this hinderer is orderly government, and as long as orderly government prevails these things cannot take place. Some of the early fathers thought the hinderer was the Roman Empire, and that Paul dared not put on paper just what was in his mind lest he expose Christians to the charge of plotting the downfall of the existing private information which he had given to the Thessalonians when he was with them that had to do with this subject. But let us remember that this letter, like every other epistle in the New Testament, was written not for the local believers only to whom it was addressed but for all Christians during the entire dispensation. Therefore v 6 is addressed to believers everywhere, who ought to be capable of understanding it, if they are at all familiar with their Bibles.
“Ye know what withholdeth that he [that is, the man of sin] might be revealed in his [own] time.”
Every Christian should be able to answer as he reads these words of scripture,
“Yes I do know who it is that hindereth the full manifestation of iniquity.”
There is only one answer possible and that is, of course, The Holy Spirit.
What Christian is there who would think of any other hindering power in such a connection? In both Testaments this is the very province and work of the Spirit of God. “He causeth the wrath of man to praise him and the remainder of wrath he doth restrain” (Psalm 76:10). “When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him ” (Isaiah 59:19). He is working in the church at the present time, convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement. Moreover, His presence in the church continues as long as that church is here, for our Lord promises, “When He is come He shall abide with you forever.”
How then will he ever be taken out of the war? This will only occur by the fulfillment of 1 Thessalonians 4, with the return of the Lord and our being caught up to meet him in the air. This is the tremendous event that will clear the way for that time of trouble from which the church of God is to be kept. There is one other passage that deals with the rapture. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 says:
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave,where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.”
There are two aspects of the coming kingdom: heavenly and earthly. Both together are called the kingdom of heaven. The saints of this and past ages will not live here on the earth during the kingdom age, but their home city will be the New Jerusalem above. This is called the Kingdom of the Father. “Then shall the righteous shine forth.” declared our Lord, “in the kingdom of your Father.” The earthly saints will live here in this world in natural bodies. This is spoken of as the kingdom of the Son of man. The apostle was referring to the heavenly kingdom when He said,
“Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
All who have part in the heavenly side of the kingdom will have glorified bodies in that day. The manner in which this will be brought about is given us in the verses that follow.
“We shall not all sleep [that is, we shall not all die], but we shall be changed [or transformed].”
This will take place in one moment in the briefest possible period of time at the last trump. The sound of that trumpet will end the present dispensation, and the dead will be raised incorruptible and the living changed. This is in exact accord with what we have already seen in 1 Thessalonians 4.
Some have endeavored to link the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation. But it should be remembered that the book of Revelation was not in existence when the apostle wrote his letters, nor did it come into existence until many years afterward. Therefore, he could not possibly have referred to anything in that book. Furthermore, it is perfectly clear that this last trump is the same as the trump of God in 1 Thessalonians 4, which is altogether different from the trumpet of an angel. The term seems to be a military one, and refers to a signal used in the Roman army to set the legions in motion. At the first trump tents were struck, at the second trump they fell into line, at the last trump they marched away. We are waiting for the last trump when we will not march nor fly, but will be caught up to be with the Lord in the air, and so we shall be kept from the hour of temptation which is coming on all the earth.
3) WHAT SAINTS WILL BE IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION?
It is evident from the word of God that certain saints will be found on earth in the days of the great tribulation. Many of these will be called on to suffer martyrdom while others will be preserved through this entire period and will enter into the kingdom to be set up on earth. Because of this, it has naturally been concluded that these are necessarily members of the church, the body of Christ. Many think of the church as a surname by which the entire family of faith from Adam to the end of the millennium is designated. If one thinks of the church in this manner there can be only one answer to the question.
“Will the church or any part of it go through the great tribulation?”
Certainly many members of the household of faith will have to endure great suffering during that time of trouble. But if one has learned to distinguish clearly from scripture between new birth, common to all children of God in every dispensation, and membership in the body of Christ, which belongs alone to the saints of this present age from Pentecost to the rapture. It should not be difficult to distinguish the saints who will have part in the tribulation from those who will be caught up before it begins. But because many believers are not clear as to this distinction, I think it well to go into it somewhat fully, and in order to do so, I take the liberty to quote from an earlier work of mine entitled, “Who will be Saved in the Coming Period of Judgement?” part of which is included in the discussion here.
First, then, let it be noted that Old Testament prophecy never refers to this dispensation in which we live (extending from Pentecost to the Lord’s coming for His own), save in a most indefinite way, as, for instance, in Daniel 9:26. From Moses to Malachi, scripture is mainly occupied with one nation, Israel (Amos 3:2; Deuteronomy 7:6; Psalm 147:19-20), and the hope of that nation, namely, the raising up of a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:15), priest (Psalm 110:4; Zechariah 6:13), and king (Isaiah 32; Psalm 2:6). who is to bring them into everlasting blessing as people (Psalm 132:11-18; Isaiah 35:10; 51:11; 61:7), though not until they have been born again (Ezekiel 36:24-30). The gentiles will share in that blessing (Isaiah 56:6; 65:1), not on the same footing with Israel, but rather in subjection to them (Isaiah 14:1-3; 60:3-5; 62:2-3).
Ere (Before) the ushering in of that day of Jehovah’s power and Messiah’s glory the prophets predicted the rejection of the looked-for Redeemer by Israel to whom He came (Isaiah 53). In consequence Israel is set aside by God (Zechariah 7:13-14), while the rejected Messiah takes His place in the heavens on Jehovah’s throne (Psalm 110:1), which He will occupy until the future repentance of the people (Hosea 5:15). This setting aside of Israel is not final, as Jeremiah 30-31 declare. But before their restoration to divine favor and the land of Palestine, the Israelites must pass through a short period of unequaled persecution and chastisement, called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7). At the close of this time they will be ready to acknowledge the crucified one as their Lord, and will “mourn for Him as one mourning for his only son” (Zechariah 12:10-14: 13:6- 7).
In the darkest hour of their sorrow, when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and they are in dire distress, He will appear as their Deliverer and the destroyer of their enemies, after which the tabernacle of David will be raised up and the reign of righteousness ushered in (Zechariah 14: Amos 9:8-15). Thus far the Old Testament. Turning now to the New Testament we find much new data introduced, without which the present working of the Spirit of God in the world would be inexplicable. In Romans 11 we are told that upon the breaking off of the natural branches (Israel) from the tree of promise, wild branches (Gentiles) are introduced in their place. In other words, Israel’s rejection has made way for unforetold grace to be shown to the nations, though Old Testament prophecy of blessing to the heathen can be quoted as proof that such grace is not in opposition to their final blessing. However, this special work among the gentiles is not to go on forever though; for if these continue not in divine goodness, they too shall be cut off and the natural branches grafted in again, for God is able. God, then, is doing a work now that is unmentioned in the Jewish oracles, during the time that His earthly people are Lo-ammi “not my people,” (Hosea 1:9), or unacknowledged by Him, “Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in” (Romans 11:25).
This is one of the “mysteries”, one of the secret things (Deuteronomy 29:29) that has until now been unrevealed. The Lord Jesus confirms this (from the political side) in his prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem, the long period of desolation and gentile supremacy following it, and the end that occurs with his personal appearing. Luke 21:24 records:
“Jerusalem shall be trodden of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
This connects us against with Daniel 9, where we get the great prophecy of the seventy weeks. A lengthy exposition of this passage cannot be attempted here, but we briefly notice the main points. From the course of time, seventy weeks (or heptads) of years (note the periods before the prophets mind in v 2), making in all 490 years, are “determined,” or “cut off,” and given to Daniel’s people, the Jewish nation. Ere (Before) this period of time expires six important events will have taken place:
- Transgression will be finished;
- An end will be made of sins;
- Atonement (rather than reconciliation) will be made for iniquity;
- Everlasting righteousness will be brought in;
- Vision and prophecy will be sealed up, or finished, ie., all fulfilled;
- And the most holy, or holy of holies, of the millennial temple at Jerusalem will be anointed (see Ezekiel 40-48).
The seventy weeks are divided into three unequal periods. The first is seven weeks, or forty-nine years. The second is sixty-two weeks, or 434 years. The third is one week, or seven years. During the first seven weeks, or “the strait times”, the city and wall of Jerusalem were to be rebuilt. The date from which to count is found in Nehemiah 2, when a “commandment went forth to restore and build Jerusalem.” The sixty-two weeks seem to have immediately followed, and ended in the coming of Messiah. After the conclusion of this period He was cut off and had nothing, but atonement was made. Then comes the present long interval of Jerusalem’s treading down. The city is destroyed, as our Lord foretold also, and “even unto the end shall be war,” until one arises who confirms a covenant with the Jews for the last final week. Clearly, then, this week is still future. The prophetic clock stopped at Calvary; it will not start again until “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
The present is a timeless epoch, parenthetically introduced between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week, in which God is taking out from among the gentiles a people for His name (Acts 15:14). He has utterly given up the Jew, but both Jew and gentile stand on equal footing: “There is no difference: For all have sinned” (Romans 3:22-23). Both are saved through faith in Christ, and all such are made members of the one body, the church. By the Holy Ghost both are united to the Lord Jesus Christ as head in heaven. (See Romans 16:25-28; 1 Corinthians 12; Ephesians 4; Colossians 1:24-29). This began with the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2; 1 Corinthians 12:13). It will be completed at the coming of the Lord when He calls His church to be forever with Himself, an event which may take place at any moment (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Then the long-delayed seventieth week will begin to run its course. At its conclusion Daniel’s prophecy (as all other millennial prophecies) will be entirely fulfilled. Atonement was made for iniquity after the expiration of the sixty-ninth week. Everlasting righteousness will be brought in at the end of the seventieth.
This brief period will be one of judgement. It will include judgement on apostate Christendom, on Israel, and on the nations at large. It is to be the awful result of the rejection of the Prince of Peace. Revelation 4-19 is occupied entirely with its solemn events. The saints of all prior dispensations, as well as the church, are seen enthroned in heaven as the twenty-four elders who have been redeemed with the blood of the lamb (Revelation 5) at the beginning of the week. They ride forth as the “armies of heaven” with “the Word of God” at His glorious appearing at the end. The last three-and-one-half years will be the time when Israel shall receive “of the Lord’s hand double for all her sins” (Isaiah 40:2), the “time of Jacob’s trouble” spoken of in Jeremiah 30:7 and Daniel 12:1, and the “great tribulation” of Matthew 24 and Revelation 7:14. The covenant breaking prince of Daniel 9 is the beast, the head of the Roman Empire, who makes a league with the willful king of Revelation 11:36-39.
He is the antichrist of prophecy (1 John 2:18), the idol shepherd of Zechariah 11:15-17, who will “come in his own name,” as foretold by the Lord Jesus in John 5:43, and will be received by the majority of the Jews as messiah, but who will become the cruel persecutor of a faithful company designated as “the remnant” (Isaiah 11:11; Ezekiel 6:8; Revelation 12:17). In Revelation 7 we read of 144,000 out of all the tribes of Israel and a numberless white-robed multitude of spared gentiles who will follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are said to have come up out of the great tribulation and to have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Many take it for granted that this is a heavenly company, and one is not surprised at that, for the language used is so nearly like that which we find later on in connection with the saints in the new Jerusalem. But a careful comparison of this chapter with a part of Isaiah 49 makes it clear that this great multitude represents the nucleus of the kingdom to be set up in this world at the time when our Lord returns and the days of heaven prevail on the earth. In other words, it refers to heavenly conditions in this world. In Isaiah 49:8-13, we read:
“Thus saith the Lord. In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages. That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them; for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. Behold, these shall come from far; and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains; for the Lord hath comforted His people, and will have mercy upon His afflicted.”
There is no question here of resurrection or the peopling of the heavenly Jerusalem. This entire prophecy has to do with the resurrection of Israel and the blessing of the gentiles through them of the earth in a coming day. The language of Isaiah 49:10 is almost identical with that of Revelation 7:16. Who then are these saints? First we must consider the 144,000. There has been speculation regarding this company. Some see them a picture of what they call a first fruits rapture, linking this passage with Revelation 14, where 144,000 are seen standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion. The current teaching states that a select group of believers will be raptured before the great tribulation, while the rest will have to pass through it. The 144,000 are supposed to represent this select group. The great multitude, the majority of the church, will be purified in the fires of the great tribulation. But scripture knows nothing of any such selective rapture. The word of God is perfectly plain. Consider these texts from the Bible: “Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming.” and “We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together.” There is no hint of any division in the church of God, the body of Christ. All are saved by grace, all are alike made “meet to be partakers of the of the inheritance of the saints in light.”
The rapture is never presented as reward for special devotedness, but is preliminary to the judgement seat of Christ, where we shall all stand to receive our rewards. We will be in a glorified body when we appear at that great tribunal. This could not be true if only a special group were raptured before the tribulation. It is sad to observe the way various sects and systems seek to identify themselves with the 144,000. According to the Seventh-day Adventists, these are those who keep the commandments perfectly. The Russellites insist that they are a special class of over-comers who will be exalted to the divine nature, whereas others will be saved on a lower plane. Various pentecostal groups declare that they are those who have been baptized with the Spirit and speak in tongues, or are characterized by other remarkable gifts. But what are the facts?
First we have the vision (Revelation 7:1- 3), and then the interpretation (Revelation 7:4). The 144,000 are out of all tribes of the children of Israel and represent that remnant which will turn to the Lord after the church has been caught up, in accordance with Romans 11:23: “Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” In the book of Daniel, and in many parts of prophetic scripture, we find this remnant distinguished from the mass. They are the wise who understand. They are the gleanings in the day of Jehovah’s wrath, who will be recognized by Him as His own. They are sealed for preservation in view of the coming kingdom, before the dreadful storm of the great tribulation is permitted to break on the earth. In Revelation 14 we see them as a victorious company, safely emerged from that storm, having formed what we might call the bodyguard of the Lamb, when He returns to mount Zion. It is evident that they will be a witnessing company and will carry the gospel of the kingdom to millions who have never heard and rejected the message of grace. As a result of their testimony, we see the great multitude of gentiles brought to a knowledge of Christ and cleansed by His precious blood. Isaiah 66:18-21 is very instructive in this connection: “
For I know their works and their thoughts; it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them into the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw thee bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.”
Here we have God dealing in grace with Israel and the gentile nations during the time of the great tribulation and just before He sets up His glorious kingdom here on earth. We are told in Daniel 12:3,
“And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”
This, as the first verse of the same chapter shows us, has to do with their testimony in the time of trouble yet to come, but Daniel had told us,
“At that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”
The hour of their darkest trouble and deepest sorrow will result in the elect among them returning to the Lord. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are those who will say,
“Come, and let us return unto the Lord; for He hath torn, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and He will bind us up” (Hosea 6:1).
Zion’s sore travail shall result in a great bringing forth of children, as predicted in Micah 5:3 and Isaiah 66:8.
“Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.”
The “blindness in part” is to be done away, the “fullness of the Gentiles” having come in, as shown also in Hosea 3:4-5:
“For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; and shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days.”
This is true not of the nation as a whole (see Zechariah 13:8-9; Isaiah 24:13; also Ezekiel 20:31-44) but of the remnant. The mass will be destroyed for their apostasy. The remnant will be acknowledged as the nation, and “so all Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26). To be of the sons of Jacob will not ensure an opportunity of grace. None who refuse the truth now, whether Jew or gentile, can be saved then. In Matthew 25, we have the judgement of the living nations at the Lord’s return. This is to be distinguished from the judgement of the great white throne. The former is pre-millennial, the latter post-millennial. We read:
“When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory, and before Him shall be gathered all nations.”
Notice there is no word of people here being raised from the dead, as at the final judgement. But we see the living nations gathered before him, and a separation is made according to the treatment afforded those whom the Lord calls “my brethren.” Linking this with the passages we have already considered, it would seem to be clear that the “brethren”here referred to are His brethren after the flesh, the remnant of Israel. Those who enter into the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world are the gentiles who received these brethren and heeded their message. These are the ones who inherit the millennial kingdom. Those who are martyred under the beast and the anti-christ in that day will be raised from the dead when the Lord descends to take the kingdom, and will thus form the last cohort of the first resurrection.
Notice the order indicated in Revelation 20:4-6. First, John says,
“I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them.”
These are undoubtedly identified with the saints who are raised at the rapture before the tribulation. Then John mentions another class.
“And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
“These are the martyrs of the tribulation period. They have their part in the heavenly side of the kingdom. As to the unsaved, we are told in verse 5.
“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”
Verse 6 includes the entire company who have part in the various cohorts of the first resurrection.
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection; on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
It is plain then that there will be saints on the earth during the great tribulation, but they are not members of the body of Christ, as that body is now constituted by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They will be individual believers, as in Old Testament times, and will through grace be enabled to witness for Christ in that day of great distress. They will share in the kingdom and enjoy the blessing of the Lord in a wonderful way, but they are not included in the body of Christ that occupies a distinct place through all the ages to come.
4) THE BLESSED HOPE?
As we thoughtfully read the words of our Lord Jesus recorded in the early verses of John 14 and as we consider the teaching given in the Pauline Epistles in regard to the hope of the church, it becomes increasingly evident that there is not the least hint that believers of this dispensation were to look forward to a long series of events preceding the return of the Lord Jesus to raise the dead in Christ and change the living and take them to Himself in the Father’s house. This blessed hope is always presented as imminent, which it could not be if one had to suppose that the destruction and revival of the Roman empire, the rise of the antichrist, and the great tribulation, must precede that glorious event. Yet there are other scriptures that distinctly show, as we have seen, that there will be saints on the earth when these conditions prevail. But I trust it has already been made clear that they will not belong to the church, the body of Christ.
There are in fact two distinct stages of our Lord’s return presented in the New Testament. He is coming for His saints; this is the rapture that precedes the great tribulation. And He is going to be manifested with all His saints when he descends to exercise judgement on those who have persisted in rejecting His grace; this is when He will establish His glorious kingdom to reign in righteousness over this world. In other words, while the Old Testament and the four gospels, together with other scriptures, plainly predict Christ’s second coming to establish His kingdom on this earth, it is part of the mystery hidden from past ages that when He comes He will have with Him a bride to share His throne, as well as a host of other redeemed saints from all past dispensations in His train. This is looked on as a visionary interpretation by many, and the attempt has been made again and again to show that this view, which is often called the futurist theory, was originated by Spanish Jesuits in order to turn away opprobrium from Rome. But the fact of the matter is that the Jesuit writers in question, Alchzar and Ribera, simply set forth what was taught with more or less clearness by some of the church fathers in the first three centuries of the Christian era, and was lost sight of later.
Others again have tried to put the stigma of demonism on the precious truth that the Lord may return at any time to take His saints to be with Himself preceding the great tribulation, endeavouring to link this with certain theories taught by the late Edward Irving and his followers in the early part of the nineteenth century. But anyone at all acquainted with Irving’s teaching can see how truly false this is. From the time when long- neglected prophetic truth came again into prominence there was a great deal of confusion regarding the two aspects of the Lord’s return mentioned above. But eminent Bible teachers who weighed all the scriptures carefully and prayerfully before God were led to see the distinction between the church as the body of Christ and the saints of a coming age. These saints would be witnesses for the Lord in the time of the tribulation and would share with Him in the manifested kingdom. The more carefully these views have been examined by men of God dependent on the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the word, the more they have been seen to be distinctly in harmony with divine revelation.
In recent years, particularly following World War I, there has been a recrudescence of post-tribulationism, brought about largely by the fact that so many stirring events have taken place which seem to foreshadow the actual conditions that will prevail during the time of Jacob’s trouble. Already the Roman empire seems in process of revival. The rise of dictatorship gives us to understand how readily the great world ruler of the coming day will forge his way to the front and be acclaimed as the very representative of God himself. The return of thousands of Jews to Palestine, involving the rehabilitation of that land, is certainly preparing the way for the very events depicted in the prophets and by our Lord Himself, which are to take place in the last days.
All of these things and many others that might be added, seem to have swept some dear brethren away from their moorings. Losing sight of that blessed Hope, they are now fixing their attention on events, rather than on the Person Who is coming. The effect of this is not a healthy thing. It results in occupying the heart and mind with earthly things instead of with the coming Saviour. It has led many to think that perhaps we are entering even now into the great tribulation – perhaps we are actually through the greater part of it and are just waiting for the revelation of the antichrist and then the Lord’s actual descent to the Mount of Olives and the establishment of the kingdom. But the very fact that we see conditions shaping themselves for tribulation times should only lead us to realize the nearness of our hope. At any moment now the Lord may descend from heaven to raise the dead and change the living, and then will come the dark days predicted in both Testaments for apostate Israel and apostate Christendom.
Another view that has clouded the faith of many who cannot see that at least some saints will be caught up before the great tribulation, is what is commonly known as the partial or firstfruits rapture. This, however, is in plain contradiction to the testimony of the Holy Spirit given through the apostle Paul and our blessed Lord Himself. The Saviour made no distinction among His heavenly people when he said, “If I go…I will come again and receive you unto Myself.” He had just foretold the defection of Peter, but He did not even hint that unless Peter is restored he will have no part in the heavenly Father’s house. In fact, our Lord addressed Himself particularly to Peter when He said, “Let not your heart be troubled.” He of course had made provision for the restoration of the soul of his disciples, as He does for all of us; but He gave no suggestion that any would be left behind when He would return for His own. In the epistles the rapture is seen to be all-embracing. We read:
“They that are Christ’s at His coming.”
We do not read that they are eminently faithful, nor that they speak with tongues, but simply that “they that are Christ’s.” And again, in 1 Thessalonians, we have the statement, “We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together.” There are no distinctions made between mature and immature Christians in these words. If other scriptures are cited which seem to indicate that some will not be ready when the Lord comes, a careful examination of the context will show that in each instance the reference is to the coming of the Son of man at the end of the great tribulation, and not to the descent of the Lord to the aid to receive the saints of this dispensation and past ages to be with Himself in the Father’s house. Therefore it may be confidently affirmed that neither post-tribulationism nor partial rapture theories are taught in the word of God.
It seems perfectly evident that the blessed Hope is intended to be the daily expectation of the believers, which could not be if certain events had to take place before its fulfillment. Moreover, if I put anything in my thinking between the present moment and the return of the Lord, I am losing what is of infinite value in connection with my personal walk and Christian experience.
“Every man that hath this Hope in him purifieth himself even as he is pure.”
I know of nothing that is so effectual in controlling the heart and mind of the believer, so that his one aim and object will be to walk in holy separation to the Lord Himself, as the thought that at any moment He Who has redeemed us may return and take us to the Father’s house. One may hold certain intellectual views of the second coming of Christ, even the view of the pre-tribulation rapture, and not be practically sanctified thereby. But if this hope holds me, it cannot but result in increased personal piety.
Then too we need to remember that it is at the return of the Lord for His saints that He will go over our record as servants when we stand before the judgement seat of Christ. At that time, we are to be rewarded according to the deeds done in the body, and our place in the coming kingdom indicated. It is then that the crowns of reward are to be distributed, and in this connection it is significant to note that in the book of Revelation, we see the twenty-four elders crowned and enthroned around the central throne of God and of the Lamb (Revelation 4-5), before the solemn judgments begin to fall on the earth. Almost all futurist interpreters are agreed that in Revelation 6-19, we have the great tribulation period. It is then that the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God will be poured on the habitable earth, and Satan will be cast down from the heavenlies, having great wrath, knowing that his time is short. These are the circumstances of the great tribulation. We are looking for Christ as our deliverer from the wrath to come. Whatever view we may take of the symbolic elders, whether we think of them as twenty-four individuals, or as representing the entire heavenly priesthood, which to me is clearly the true interpretation, there is this to bear in mind;they are seen crowned in heaven before the judgements begin. Consider these facts:
- a) the tribulation period does not begin until the Lamb receives the seven-sealed book and breaks the seals.
- b) But the Lamb does not receive the book until crowned saints are seen in heaven.
- c) No saints have yet received their crowns, nor will there be crowned saints in heaven until the judgement seat of Christ is past.
- d) The apostle Paul declares definitely that the crown of righteousness will be given to him and to all who love Christ’s appearing in that day; this is the day of the manifestation following our Lord’s return for His saints.
- f) Therefore it seems plainly evident that the great tribulation cannot possibly begin until after the rapture of the church.
There is much more that might be said, but I leave the matter here, commending the entire subject to the spiritual judgement of the people of God, feeling assured that the more carefully this matter is weighed, the clearer it will be that the church, the body of Christ, is not to look forward to a time when the wrath of God will be poured out on this world, but is to live in daily expectation of the Lord’s return to take us to be with Himself before the time of grief begins.
May it be our privilege to search the scriptures daily concerning the truth of these things, and to live in the power of that blessed Hope.
Thank you for posting this Deborah. Dr. Ironside was one of the greatest yet humblest Bible expositors of our times.
Sadly, many who have done a good job of exposing the wolves have, in their zeal forgotten that wolves most often mix truth and error. They have thrown the baby out with the bath. Just because a false teacher promotes the Rapture does not invalidate that truth. In fact, what a clever trick of Satan to rob the Church of a precious truth!
Many consider eschatology, the study of end times to be of little importance which is foolhardy considering the state of affairs we find the world AND the Church today.
It is a false notion that the Blessed Hope is escapism. No, we as believers are not to be ignorant regarding the times in which we live and what is to come. Yes, we are to be comforted by the Blessed Hope as we see the wickedness of the world increase and we long, or we SHOULD long to be with our Lord and away from it all. The Blessed Hope takes away fear and frees us up to serve to the very best of our ability and the opportunities presented to us. The Bible tells us to be sober and alert and use the sound mind God has given us.
But no, we should be motivated to redeem the time left to reach the lost and snatch some from the fire. Soon the door will close on the Church Age and we will stand before our Lord and give account at the Bema Seat, NOT for our sins, but our deeds done as believers. Our heart’s desire should be to hear the words, “Well done, good and faithful servant”.
Yes, there have been martyrs for the Christian faith, ever since the early Christians and the Apostles and even into our modern times in certain portions of the world. But to believe that there will be a wholesale slaughter of the Church is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that there who receive Christ after the Rapture will be martyred, but it won’t be the Bride of Christ, but rather what the Bible calls the Tribulation Saints, distinguished from those saved during the Church Age.
About Israel, so many have become confused about this. And again, Satan uses false teachers such as John Hagee to make an idol out of Israel.
Thank you not only for exposing false doctrine and false teachers, but also for standing for sound doctrine and encouraging the sheep of the Lord who have become confused and discouraged.
We live in exciting, yet perilous times and we best have our biblical ducks in a row. We are seeing the destructive doctrine of Calvinism/Reformed gut the gospel by those who are considered discerners and their error is further compounded by false eschatology. We are living in a time when deception has reached critical mass and we best be listening to the right voices!
Thank you for that, well said, and I don’t think I could have said it better, you hit the nail on the head!
I love your discussions! They are awesome, thanks for all you do!
Thank you Debs…
“Losing sight of that blessed Hope, they are now fixing their attention on events, rather than on the Person Who is coming. The effect of this is not a healthy thing. It results in occupying the heart and mind with earthly things instead of with the coming Saviour. It has led many to think that perhaps we are entering even now into the great tribulation”
And that is why ‘Tribulation Events” are being simulated. It is to make believers think they are halfway through the tribulation and leaves the open question… “where is the promise of His coming?”
Like the “forced implants” report in the Philippines and the “False flag” events?
Indeed Redeemed, what a clever snaky trick!.
Yes, Redeemed, I agree with Deborah, that was very well said.
Luther once said that humanity is like a drunk man on a horse who, when he falls off, climbs back on to fall off the other side–though Luther himself did the same!
If we’re not contending with Replacement “Theology” (heresy) we are contending with people like John Hagee, another extreme. Then we have the ecumenists to deal with who are a mix of everything. They see those who are contend for the faith once delivered and cling to sound doctrine as modern-day Pharisees–although the Pharisees put their traditions above doctrine.
It’s encouraging to read comments like yours–and Deborah’s too!
Thanks for putting the above piece by Dr Ironside, Deborah. I don’t think I’ve read anything by him before.
Oh, My Fellow Watchman at DTW,
How you have been deceived into believing the lie of a pre-trib rapture. Quite honestly, I don’t know how you can claim “discernment” and be able to research “wolves,” and somehow miss the many wolves and liars of the pre-trib rapture?
I don’t care if you allow this post to stand, as I’m really writing to you as a fellow believer who is promoting false teaching yourself in this pre-trib garbage.
Do you not know that the pre-trib doctrine was “given” to Margaret MacDonald of Irving’s church, and that MacDonald was an occultist in contact with the demonic world? She’s even reported to have levitated!
And soon after her “new revelation” from God (really?), she told Irving about it, and he twisted what she said even more into a secret rapture lie that it is.
Shortly after this, John Darby, who was working on his doctrine of demons dispensationalism, he went and met with MacDonald before finally completing his new pre-trib dispensational lie. This is documented–go find it on the internet, it’s there that he went and consulted with occultist MacDonald before unleashing his lies from hell!
And then, true to form, one of the main figures who probably did more than anyone else to promote the pre-trib lie, Scoefield, created his own pre-trib version of the Bible! And who was this Scoefield? A scoundrel lawyer who swindled people out of huge sums of money for fraudulent, non-existent real estate deals–HE WAS CONVICTED AND DID TIME IN PRISON FOR THIS! And this man has his own Bible? that promoted pre-trib? Of course! Again, this is documented–be a watchman and look it up on the internet?
And what other “big names” of the faith have promoted this lie?
Tim LaHaye–the man who founded the Pre-Trib Research Center, of course; but, also founded the dominionist Council for National Policy. Worse yet, who else was involved both with LaHaye and the CNP? Sun Myung-Moon, the man who declared himself to be the Messiah, the man whose ring LaHaye kissed and said to Moon, “Your sufferings will save America;” the same LaHaye who took substantial amounts of money from Moon.
Chuck Missler is also on this list, the same Missler who outright lies to promote pre-trib, as can be seen in his Rapture video on YouTube, where among other bold lies, Missler says the ante-Nicene fathers believed pre-trib and even names them; but, of course, goes not give one quote from any of them? Why? Because it’s a bald-faced lie as THERE WAS NOT ONE EARLY CHURCH FATHER WHO BELIEVED IN PRE-TRIB! ALL OF THEM taught that Christians and the Church would suffer under Satan’s wrath in the Great Tribulation, which is not God’s wrath on The Day of the Lord. And then there’s Missler’s company SWANSAT that’s developing a global satellite system for the U.N. for “educational purposes” to be used throughout the world. To make matters worse, Missler’s business partners in SWANSAT are 1) a catholic who reports to the Vatican and 2) a New Ager! And then let’s not forget Missler’s plagiarism of a university professor’s work on pre-trib, which Missler cut-and-pasted directly into his work on pre-trib and claimed it as his own, for which the professor rightly sued him!
The list goes on and on, but I’ll finish with one last big name in the pastor training world, that being John Walvoord, President of Dallas Theological Cemetary, who on more than one occasion misquoted, gave partial quotes in BiblioTheca Sacra and intentionally mislead thousands of seminary students and pastors and Christians to support the pre-trib lie.
Why would these supposed great men of God lie? Only God knows that answer for sure; but, might it have something to do with fame and money? Surely you know that the pre-trib liars make over $1 BILLION a year on movies, books, DVDs and CDs–yes, “merchandisers” of God’s Word and people. Is this their motive? I can’t say for sure, but “the fruit” of their lies coupled together with the money they’re making certainly says something about possible motives.
If you want proof and are too busy to verify any of this, just drop me an email and I’ll send you the links to the documented proof on all of this and a whole lot more about these people.
In the mean time, if you want a straight and simple examination of what the Bible really does say, please watch this video–from another watchman:
Be not deceived my Brother, nor have fellowship with these men, let alone promote their lies. As the Lord asks, “What fellowship does light have with darkness?”
In His truth and love, a love that’s frustrated because all the proof of this is on the internet and people won’t even take the time to search out the truth and not be deceived.
Oh, I almost forgot to note IMHO the worst false teacher of the pre-trib rapture doctrine, a fellow member with LaHaye, Missler, Jeffrey, and others, that being none other than Dr. Jimmy DeYoung. What’s makes DeYoung so dangerous is that he believes and teaches that Christians can take the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation, repent of it, and still go to heaven. Now there’s getting the deceived sheep ready for the end-times!
A great article by Dr Ironside. Thank you Redeemed, you put that all very nicely in a nutshell, I agree with Debs!
Clearly you DID NOT EVEN READ THE ARTICLE based on some of your ridiculous remarks in your comment.
Just because some false teacher promotes the rapture does not make it false, these men preach other truths from the bible as well, does that make them false too?? Hang on, they even preach about Jesus, does that make Jesus false now as well? I do not support these false teachers AT ALL never have, never will. Rome and many a false person supports YOUR beliefs of preterism or amillennialism or what ever you believer. The rapture is in the bible and it is as clear as daylight for all to see.
Satan is EXCEPTIONALLY smart; he uses false teachers like Missler and LaHaye and others to promote the Blessed Hope and then when the time is right he lets everyone know how false Missler and others are in the hopes that people will ditch the biblical rapture as well – and guess what – it WORKED! You fell for it, and millions of others too. Right at a time when we are so close to Jesus returning people are turning away from Him, and Satan is laughing.
I spent a good 2 years studying all theologies, pretrib, post, preterism and amillennial. When I became a Christian I new nothing of the rapture (so I was not indoctrinated by anyone). I studied the different ideas intensely, each scripture, going back and forth making notes as I was guided by the Holy Spirit. After nearly 2 years of looking at everything and I mean EVERYTHING I am very happy to say that the pretrib rapture is true and the Holy Spirit confirmed it so many times for me through scripture. If you do not give Israel their promise of 7 years, where God SAVES them, then I am sorry to say you are on the wrong track and I am even going to say this out loud – antisemitic!
The REAL church of Jesus will not be around for the tribulation as we are ALREADY SAVED by the blood of Jesus Christ and DO NOT have to die again during the tribulation for our salvation If you want to go through through the trib to DIE for Jesus, then I question your salvation NOW. When the Holy Spirit (RESTRAINER) leaves the earth He takes US WITH HIM, because He ABIDES IN US. If He leaves and does not take the church, then we lose our salvation- which cannot happen.
The so called ‘church’ that is left behind – that has NO Holy Spirit in them will be attacking ISRAEL. Are you going to be attacking Israel? Or do you have to shed your own blood through martyrdom to enter Heaven?
>> worst false teacher of the pre-trib rapture doctrine, a fellow member with LaHaye, Missler, Jeffrey, and others, that being none other than Dr. Jimmy DeYoung. What’s makes DeYoung so dangerous is that he believes and teaches that Christians can take the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation,
Hang on, that makes no sense. If DeYoung preaches in the pre-trib rapture how then can he believe that Christians can take the Mark of the Beast during the Tribulation. Errr.
Not condoning DeYong at all, I do not support these false teachers as I said earlier. I am just pointing out an discrepancy in your comment.
>> repent of it, and still go to heaven
I ain’t repenting of nothing Mick, don’t lump me into the same apple cart as these people. If you do I will lump you in the same apple cart as the Roman Catholic Church, and I am sure you wont like that.
First, please allow me to commend you for your integrity to post my links and “sharpen iron” with me–I have encountered only one other occasion where I’ve seen such integrity–PTL!
Second, I want to reply to your last comment first, mainly because it’s a shorter point than the others.
I can’t speak for DeYoung on why he’s pre-trib and says Christians will already be raptured, i.e., makes no sense. However, as I understand it, DeYoung is referring to LEFT BEHIND people who become Christian after the pre-trib rapture . . . that they can take the Mark, repent, and still go to heaven.
About lumping you with the false teachers was not my intention; rather, to point out that people who support or endorse false teachers and/or their false message, by their own choosing are lumping themselves together with them. I believe the Bible is fairly clear is many places about this.
So my plea to you was not meant to say you are one of them; rather, to be careful so that you do not. If I failed to make that point clearly, I apologize–no offense intended.
Personally, where you want to lump me makes no difference to me. I am an historic pre-millennialist, i.e., eschatology of all ante-Nicene fathers taught by the Apostles, which includes a future fulfillment God’s promises to Israel, and the “gathering” together to him, what we call the rapture. In other words, I believe nothing of any false teachings of the cult of Romanism; but do believe that God has true Christians there as He has everywhere around the world.
Thank you again, Deborah, I’m off to comment on the larger part of our discussion.
Continued blessings of our Lord upon you!
Sister Deborah, regarding your reply to me, I’ve used the cool feature button feature you’ve got here, but my first time using such technology and hoping this looks right when finished? At any rate, I’ll try to follow your example above in responding.
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
Lastly, Sister, I don’t have to shed my blood to enter heaven–that shedding has already been done–praise Jesus! On the other hand, is it at all unreasonable to believe that I may shed my blood in proof of my faith before men and God, much the same way thousands do now everyday? Just try preaching a “you won’t suffer and die” secret pre-trib rapture in the Middle East, Africa or Asia where thousands are being slaughtered now–they will look at you in utter disbelief!
I hope my answers show you that we both share the same Biblical view of a pre-millennial return of Jesus Christ, a thousand year reign of Christ from Jerusalem, and that our main disagreement is one of timing of when Jesus returns. Because you believe in Darbyism, I know we have other differences. For example, Darby taught that the whole 70th week of Daniel (last 7 years), was the Tribulation, and considered the wrath of God as part of the Tribulation. On the other hand, the Bible teaches, early church fathers taught, that the Great Tribulation is Satan’s wrath, not God’s. God’s wrath doesn’t start until He pours it out on the Day of the Lord, which actually follows Satan’s wrath/great tribulation.
Lastly, regarding Israel, I’ll make a separate post on that.
I hope the above inserted comments look okay when this is posted, and doesn’t end up jumbled?
In His love and truth,
Regarding your views and comments on Israel above, I want to share a post with you that I made on a blog that was exposing Zionism, i.e., political Israel who uses religion to achieve its ends, as opposed to spiritual Israel. I hope this clarifies for you not only my position on Israel clearly not being anti-Semitic; but also being what God says in the Bible:
Aside from the heretical anti-Semitic Replacement Theology crowd who see the church as something separate from Israel and that replaces Israel to receive the covenantal promises of God, the Missler, LeHaye, et al crowd show the fruit of their (Darbyism) dispensational poison that permeates the American church.
They assert the error that God has two plans of salvation, one for Israel and one for the church, i.e., there are two paths to salvation, one an earthly kingdom for the Jews (who have their own separate promises) and, and the other a heavenly kingdom for the church (who has their own separate promises).
Quite simply, they completely miss the truth of the matter that there is no difference between the remnant of Israel and the church (begun in Christ and His remnant seed of the Jewish apostles), i.e., the church. There is no difference between the Jewish remnant and the church–the former was born of Christ in creation continued, the latter born in Christ by its grafting in–in? into what? remnant Israel, who with us Gentiles, are the church.
And how do the Darbyites respond? By pointing to the Abrahamic covenant promises to the SEED of Abraham. They miss the obvious fact that “seed” is singular, and that “seed” refers to Jesus Christ himself as a descendant of Abraham, who is the author of the faith of Abraham and all of his spiritual seed descendants:
Gen 15:18 “In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: ” Note that the ESV has seed incorrectly translated as “descendants,” when the correct translation is the singular “descendant” in reference to Christ the author of faith in all generations.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
All of Galatians 3, but especially:
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Likewise, all of Romans 9, but especially:
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
And as to the rest of Israel not of the seed, those who have been blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles be completed, St. Paul speaks regarding his fellow Jews:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
So, Sister Deborah, clearly I am not anti-Semitic. I don’t know how any honest Christian can be–Christ was and is a Jew, the first believers (apostles, i.e.,church) were Jewish, and we (Gentiles) were grafted in to spiritual Israel through Jesus Christ.
Of course this begs the question: Why then support Israel as a nation, i.e., ethnic Israel? The answer is quite simply because spiritual Israel lives within national/ethnic Israel, and Jerusalem does not belong to ethnic/national Israel, it belongs to spiritual Israel with whom we Gentiles have been grated into. Ethnic/national Israel merely benefits because of God’s relationship with his spiritual “seed” to whom are the actual heirs of His promises.
In His love and truth,
p.s. I neglected to include that Jesus Christ Himself made a distinction between ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel in several places in the Bible, as well as telling us the fate that awaits ethnic Israel, the most notable being:
Rev 2:9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie–behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you.
Hi Debs…what Jimmy DeYoung says, is that the unsaved, during the tribulation, who take the mark of the beast can “repent” and be saved!!!!!!!!???????????? Tim LaHaye’s “Left Behind” series (I’ve been told) also “teach” that same very gross error – TOTALLY not Scripture! I wonder if they’ve read the Bible?
I have debated this topic with tons of people, and I have answered these question about 10 times each (ok thats an exaggeration, but close) on other articles that I have done on the rapture on this blog. I REALLY suggest you go and read ALL the comments (SLOWLY) because I am pretty sure I have answered every question you can muster. https://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/important-dtw-topics/rapture-caught-up-the-first-resurrection/ – I dare you to read all comments, go on, dare dare double dare.
>> Deborah, the root of this “new revelation” from God is found is occultist Margaret MacDonald–that’s been verified by her very own writing
Nonsense. This Margaret MacDonald thing has been debunked ages ago already and I am so tired of defending this ridiculous story. Your entire argument so far is based around this silly girl and her silly vision. Again SHE IS false and this story is driving me nuts.
>> Because you believe in Darbyism, I know we have other differences.
I do not believe in Darbyism, LOL. Never read his books, never will. Like calling me a Calvinist and I don’t follow John Calvin. Should I call you an Augustinian because St Augustine believed in pre-trib and then changed to post-trib at at later stage as his doctrines chopped and changed like he changed his underwear.
>> Dear Sister Deborah, please, please let me caution you against saying “the Holy Spirit” confirms pre-trib.
And how dare you tell me that I am NOT guided by the Holy Spirit.
>> Deborah, you make an assumption that the “restrainer” is the Holy Spirit, which I happen to agree with; but, it is an assumption
Errr, you either know the truth or you don’t Mick, you appear to be confused.
Did you read the article Mick? I bet by bottom dollar that you didn’t because there are other verses from scripture to back up that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.
If it’s only timing we differ on, why are are you so concerned that I would dare believe that Jesus would come back before the tribulation? Huh? Huh? And don’t tell me you are concerned I will think Jesus is not coming because all of a sudden we are in the tribulation… and I will reject Jesus because of this. This is a lie out of the pit of hell told but liars! And I have already explained this at the beginning of the article that you did not read.
What is more concerning is Jesus coming and being left behind!! IF you have a problem with me looking for Jesus Christ at every possible moment, then Mick… I question you.
I’ve done my best to confirm our shared faith, give reasoned arguments and historical teachings of the church, and merely cautioned you on what you attribute to the Holy Spirit, as well as judging my salvation.
And what I got in return is some twisted notion where you charge me with saying you’re not led of the Holy Spirit?
Sister, I apologize to you that our discussion has led to the above childish replies to my honest and loving statements, proof and questions to you. Frankly, this is exactly the type of behavior usually seen by dispensationalists when confronted with the historical teachings of the church, as well as the “dirty laundry” of the inventors and promoters of the “new revelation” from God of a secret pre-trib rapture doctrine.
I’ve declared the truth to you, given you the historical/factual teaching of those taught by the apostles themselves, as well as the documented corruption and occultic associations of those people. I leave you and your readers with the truth.
In closing, let me echo my warning to you not to judge someone else’s salvation and to not attribute something as controversial as the 1800s “new revelation” secret pre-trib rapture, as being from the Holy Spirit.
In His love and truth, Sister.
p.s. Just something to think about. If the secret rapture didn’t start with MacDonald, then why in the world would John Darby go and meet with her, an occultist who levitates, BEFORE his “new revelation” never taught in the church for 1800 years, was unleashed from hell? Get Darby’s writings, Sister–he talks about his visit in his own works.
p.p.s. See you in the clouds, regardless of when our Lord returns.
Yes born again gentiles are spiritual children of Abraham and heirs of all God promises (based on all your scripture you mentioned) – the Kingdom of God (Jesus Christ)
There are millions of ‘so called’ Christians who want what’s best for Israel but are in fact anti-semetic because they believe in a form of REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. In fact every form of Christianity that is not genuine; Calvinism, Lutheran, anything reformed because they are a branch off from Rome… most Pentecostal churches now-a-days, I can go on and on and on.
What books have you been reading? You are so quick to tell me I am reading authors of books I’ve never read BESIDES THE BIBLE, how about you tell me what books and authors you read.
…..so you see ethnic Israel as being that of (unsaved Jew and Gentile) and spiritual Israel is that of (saved Gentile and saved Jew)… Yes and No dude… No.
In the above verses Jesus is calling those FALSE Christians (Gentiles) the synagogue of Satan because they want to be like the Jews and today you have hundreds of millions of them!! From the beginning of time Jews and Gentiles have been separate. You/We are a gentile (saved Gentile, spiritual seed of Abraham, inheritor of God’s promises – the Kingdom of God, Jesus Christ) – you do not become a Jew when you are saved, and you do not REPLACE a Jew either that is unsaved. When the Jews rejected Jesus Christ God turned his attention to the Gentiles (the Church age) and we have had 2000+ of getting to know Jesus Christ. But history repeats itself and the gentile is returning to his pagan ways and God knows this of course. It’s as if time is going backwards as though we were in the book of Genesis! -when God could only find a handful of Jews who were faithful! God WILL turn His attention BACK to the JEW and the gentile will be completely heathen again. Read the article, I dunno why I am repeating myself.
>> Aside from the heretical anti-Semitic Replacement Theology crowd who see the church as something separate from Israel and that replaces Israel to receive the covenantal promises of God, the Missler, LeHaye, et al crowd show the fruit of their (Darbyism) dispensational poison that permeates the American church.
No you believe in replacement theology alonside Missler and the rest – You refuse to distinguish that the Jew is God’s chosen people till the end and not the gentile.
>> They assert the error that God has two plans of salvation, one for Israel and one for the church, i.e., there are two paths to salvation, one an earthly kingdom for the Jews (who have their own separate promises) and, and the other a heavenly kingdom for the church (who has their own separate promises).
No God does not have two plans of salvation. Since when? What a load of nonsense. Jesus Christ is ONE WAY, the ONLY WAY.
Oh Pulease, you insinuate that I am not guided by the Holy Spirit because I after 2 years of studying the subject I can CLEARLY say that Pre-TRIB is true, and because I point it out, you then you get all upset and throw your toys out the cots? And call this childish? Really! Ohhhhh I must believe you instead…will that make you happy 😉 What other ‘truths’ or assumptions according to you am I not allowed to speak?? In fact I am actually quite shocked really, in all the time I’ve had this blog, and the thousands of comments I’ve allowed I’ve NEVER been told that I am assuming stuff when I read the bible and guided by the Holy Spirit… hmm.
>> Frankly, this is exactly the type of behavior usually seen by dispensationalists when confronted with the historical teachings of the church, as well as the “dirty laundry” of the inventors and promoters of the “new revelation” from God of a secret pre-trib rapture doctrine.
Oh I am sorry, was I supposed to throw my hands in the air, change my beliefs and douse my FAITH in the Blessed Hope (Jesus Christ) with a bucket of water and hug you for telling me a load of nonsense? You speak the same garbage the rest of them speak, all you can do is quote that silly girls vision – it’s all Satan has got to use to try and destroy The Blessed Hope that was held by believers since Jesus told them He would return and then said, “WHEN??????!!!!!!!” The rapture AFTER the tribulation is not a Blessed Hope – you can count the days (7 years) and it’s NOT a surprise! Surprise Mick! It’s LOGICAL!
I do not care for this Darby person or this girls vision! If this is ALL you have to go by then your argument is weak! The Blessed Hope, before the tribulation is scriptural, and is spoken of in the bible over and over again and Jesus told us to watch and pray for HIM. And I will do just that.
You can watch the world Mick, I will watch for Jesus.
I now Know what Noah felt like! I wonder what you would have said to him, never seen rain, building an Ark – “Don’t make assumptions that God told you to build a boat, because we’ve never seen this thing called rain before.”
PS, I never judged your salvation, don’t make such judgments.
(Edited: I questioned your salvation, I did not judge it. Two different things.)
>> Hi Debs…what Jimmy DeYoung says, is that the unsaved, during the tribulation, who take the mark of the beast can “repent” and be saved!!!!!!!!???????????? Tim LaHaye’s “Left Behind” series (I’ve been told) also “teach” that same very gross error – TOTALLY not Scripture! I wonder if they’ve read the Bible?
Clearly they have not read the bible because those who take the mark of the beast break out in the most excruciating SORES and the pain is beyond measure. The Mark of the Beast is a FINAL REJECTION of Jesus Christ – no turning back. And they will force it on you, you wont be asked nicely if you want to go down to your local home affairs department to take the mark.
But LeHaye and Missler and this DeYoung guy are nothing but false teachers sent by Satan to cause confusion to the Body of Christ.
That is Satan’s biggest game in the church, to cause confusion, and the biggest confusion he is causing at the moment is that of stealing people away from The Blessed Hope.
[deleted by DTW – You were so excited to communicate and then ran away throwing insults in my direction. Can’t handle the heat? Don’t come into the kitchen throwing little snide remarks. You seem to be hung up on Darby – like I said, WEAK argument that has been debunked looooooonnggggggggg agooooooooooo – the story is old news with MOLD, I have discussed this issue multiple times elsewhere on my blog that I asked you to read but you wont.]
I am glad that you are in agreement with at least part of what has been presented here. But there are a couple of things that I would like to add.
First, it was Dr. Ironside who wrote this article. He was a “self-taught” Spirit-led Bible scholar – I have his complete library of commentaries on both Old & New Testament – all those that are available, as sadly his work has been largely lost. I have found him to be spot with sound doctrine with his commentaries and I do believe that he was led of the Holy Spirit. I don’t idolize him and I know he was but a man and he regarded himself simply a servant of the Lord and was not a self-promoter. I would encourage you to locate some of his works that are public domain and available online and I think you will find even from that sampling that he was a true man of God. I do not believe for a second that he would have taught any unbiblical doctrine and that he would have listened to the Lord if he had gone astray.
Now for Scofield – he is a whipping boy of the anti-pretrib crowd. If you read his bio you will find that he DID have a checkered past, but so did David. Who are we to judge Scofield’s heart? It is our place to examine the dispensational doctrine he espoused in the light of God’s Word. And I do not base my support of pre-trib on Scofield. I don’t study his works or his Bible.
Now for Darby and Margaret McDonald.
There have been a couple of attempts to locate a “source” for Darby’s concept of the rapture. These attempts imply that Darby’s concepts originated from a questionable source.
Samuel Tragelles alleged that John Nelson Darby’s concept of the rapture was taken from one of the charismatic utterances in Edward Irving’s church. Since Tregelles regarded the utterances as “pretending to be from God,” his implication is that Darby’s rapture is from a demonic source.
Dave MacPherson built upon Tregelles’ accusation, and claimed the source for Darby’s rapture was from an utterance of Margaret MacDonald.
MacPerson has made it his life’s work to counter pretrib. That in itself is an indication of imbalance.
Also Darby had already written out his pretribulation rapture views in January 1827, 3 YEARS PRIOR to the 1830 events and any MacDonald utterance.
Some say when MacDonald’s utterance is read closely, her statements show her to hold a posttribulationist position (“being the fiery trial which is to try us” and “for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus”).
There are so many half-truths and downright fiction being put forth to convince believers to abandon the Pre-trib Rapture. It is impossible to address them all here.
I can echo Deborah’s testimony about searching and researching on this topic. My investigation and searching has been over the course of many years, more than I care to own up to. 🙂 I have looked to the Word, have entertained all the opposing views and still come to the same conclusion.
Mick, I deplore all false teachers that you mentioned mentioned but do not throw the baby out with the bath as it appears you have done. Again and I do hope this becomes clear – false teachers MIX truth and error. This is what false teachers do. I have seen false teachers actually give a biblical Gospel presentation. This has always been a puzzle to me until I came to realize that it is just another trick of Satan. That does not mean that anyone who came to be saved through he Gospel message is not saved simply because a false teacher delivered it. God’s Word is what saves!!
I started out reading the LaHaye Left Behind series, which made for interesting reading, but when I detected an ecumenical twist I dropped them like a hot potato. Also, things were coming out about LaHaye and when I saw him and Beverly canoodling with Benny Hinn I was reviled! But this did not disprove the portion of truth he did promote.
As for Hal Lindsey, many use him and his ecumenical ties and multiple marriages to discredit pretrib.
As for Jimmy DeYoung, at first glance there seems to be a lot of good stuff going on here. They put out a book exposing the fallacies of the popular book, The Harbinger. He denounces John Hagee and Glenn Beck. But like anything else, one must go deeper. i found a connection to RBC Ministries which does his “Days of Discovery” TV program. RBC started out as a solid ministry but as time went on and the original founders went to their eternal reward, the younger generation let the leaven creep in. The first I noticed it was in the little devo book “Daily Bread”. I started to see things creeping in and I stopped subscribing to it. So here again, the truth that DeYoung promotes cannot be denied, but at the same time one has to be discerning.
As to the comment attributted to DeYoung about people who accept Christ after the Rapture who take the mark are saved, I don’t bear witness to that. Someone who accepts Christ during the 7 years after the Rapture of the Church would surely know the consequences and God will give them supernatural strength to endure. It will be difficult to be a Christian in those times and it will mean certain death, but that will be welcomed for those who are fully aware of their eternal destiny and what is at stake.
My point is that I don’t follow ANY of the men who have been exposed as false teachers – Missler, LaHaye, etc. or those who have ecumenical or unholy alliances. There are Bible teachers who have exited the earthly scene and after examination and verification with the Word of God I have come to trust. They are what they were and their works remain. One of these happens to be H.A. Ironside. Oh how we need men of his ilk today! Men sold out to God, walking above reproach and in itegrity, being accountable to the Lord and not seeking the favor of men.
I extend grace and peace to you brother and pray that you will come to the knowledge of the precious truth of the Blessed Hope.
[deleted by DTW – this is a comment of yours I found on another website… Theological Sushi
Please find scripture for me in the bible where we are told to TRAIN and become like a soldier to face an impending battle in the last days? Yes we are to put on the full armour of God on every day, but I do not see anything of what you are saying in the bible. No where did Jesus instruct anyone to become ‘military’ like for the end times.
I want you to read this article I did on this little boy you supposedly went to heaven and met Jesus (Satan), he too was given a vision of the end times… a post-tribulational description. Heaven is For Real – This Story is Not Scroll down to point 14) to read what Satan has to say about Christians going through the tribulation. This story is demonic and RECENT.
PS, You wonder why I don’t do not bless people or end my comments with Love this or that, because I do not know who I am REALLY speaking too. I am not two faced. What you see of me is what you get and that is a GENUINE PERSON who loves the Gospel truth, Jesus Christ and His Saints! I love the truth so much and I sit here and take the insults thrown at me by the dozen on daily basis that people might learn the truth. If you want to read my comments as being love-less then that is YOUR doing, not mine. Just because I refuse to agree with you, or move an inch in your way of thinking, you believe I am being nasty. I get this type of comment 99% of the time from everyone who I refuse to agree with. I love my neighbour, I do not hate, hence I preach the gospel. You can think bad of me till the cows come home, but it does not make it true.
If there is no Rapture–as the Vatican, Calvinists and other heretical movements claim–then they are saying that the Bible contradicts itself. If it does contradict itself then it means the Bible errs and then it is no more true than the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita. It also means that Christ was wrong to say that Scripture cannot be broken when it obviously contradicts itself.
However, those of us who accept Christ’s admonitions know he was right.
Rapture: Christ comes FOR His Own to take them to the Marriage Supper.
Armageddon: He comes WITH His own to the earth.
Rapture: Translation of the Saints.
Armageddon: No Translation of anyone.
Rapture: Christians taken to Father’s house.
Armageddon: Saints are on earth.
Rapture: No judgment.
After Armageddon: Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth.
Church is taken to HEAVEN at Rapture
Christ sets up his Kindom on EARTH when He returns.
Rapure is always imminent.
Christ can’t can’t return for 7 years after appeance of Anti-Christ.
No signs for Rapture as it’s always imminent.
Christ can’t appear till after Anti-Christ & many other signs.
Rapture is for saints only.
Christ’s Return affects ALL Humanity.
Rapture is a time of joy.
Christ’s second coming is a time of mourning.
Rapture: One is taken and one is left behind.
Christ’s Second coming, humanity is in chaos screaming for rocks to fall on them, &c.
Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation.
Christ’s Return is immediately AFTER the Tribulation.
There is no mention of Satan at the Rapture.
At Christ’s Return Satan is bound for 1000 Years.
Soon after the Rapture is the Marriage of the Lamb.
Christ’s Return at Armageddon His Bride comes with Him.
Only His own see Him at the Rapture.
Immediately after Rapture the Tribulation begins.
Immediately after His Second Coming, 1000 Year Kingdom begins.
These things are at different times. If they are at the same time then the Bible plainly and categorically contradicts itself and Jesus was wrong and the Catholics and Calvinists are correct.
John 14:1-3; Rom 8:19; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 15:51-53;
1 Cor 16:22; Phpns 3:20-21; Phpns 4:5; Coloss 3:4; 1 Thess1:10; 1 Thess 2:19 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:9,23; 2 Thess 2:1; 1 Tim 6:14; 2 Tim 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; Jas 5:7-9; 1 Pet 1:7,13; 1 Pet 5:4; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 21; Rev 2:25; 3:10.
SECOND COMING Passages:
Daniel 2:44-45; Dan 7:9-14; Dan 12:1-3; Zech 12:10; Zech 14:1-15; Matt 24:15-34; Matt 26:64; Mark 13:14-27; Mk 14:62; Luke 21:25-28; Acts 1:9-11; Acts 3:19-21; 1 Thess 3:13; 2 Thess 1:6-10; 2 Thess 2:8; 1 Pet 4:12-13; 2 Pet 3:1-14; Jude 14-15; Rev 1:7; Rev 19:11-21; Rev 22:7, 12, 20.
The first Scriputes are different from the second batch. Check them with the Bible and it is plain that they are different times. If they are not then it is blatantly obvious that they contradict each other. The choice is yours.
If they do contradict then God would have to have cognitive dissonance. But God does not! Such a claim is blasphemy against God. And there are so-called Christians who would rather believe He does, it appears, than admit their own theology is wrong.
Deborah–you know this as well as I–we first answer a fool according to their folly and then we don’t. I’m glad to see you’re doing that.
Christ said to the Sadducees: “You err because you know not the Scriptures.” They knew the Scriptues in the sense of what the words were, like today’s Churchianity, but they didn’t know them to live by and guided by the Holy Spirit. Neither do many who claim to be Christians.
It possible to prove Scripture is true [1 Thess 5:21] it’s just that we cannot make people believe it, my fellow Berean, if their minds are set against it.
I just went and found Margaret Macdonald’s so called pre-tribulation vision… and if you read it… ITS ACTUALLY APOST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE , she describes a CHURCH THAT GOES THROUGH THE TRIBULATION! If you read her ‘occultic’ vision CORRECTLY, she is not even describing a PARTIAL rapture either. The first half of her vision sounds like a pre-trib rapture but it’s NOT, her church goes through the tribulation and then will meet the “Lord in the air”.
[This is Margaret Macdonald’s handwritten account of her 1830 Pre-Trib revelation, as included in Robert Norton’s Memoirs of James & George Macdonald of Port-Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. The italicized portions represent her account as it appears in shorter form in Norton’s The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp 15-18.]
[deleted by DTW – Thanks for coming to insult me because I wont accept your views which are UNBIBLICAL! See above where it is shown that the Macdonald’s vision is not pre-trib BUT POST TRIB. If you don’t want to come back, then fine, goodbye then]
Thank you for your blessing, Redeemed!
And let me commend you for your Berean approach to our topic(s) discussed here.
Also, I want to both agree with you and echo that I have no doubt about Brother Ironside’s love of and service to our Lord Jesus–I have read and admire his works myself.
However, my question to you is, because Brother Ironside is viewed as a loving servant of our Lord, are we to embrace his teachings of new doctrine that he learned from another more contemporary teacher, or are we to CONTINUE to embrace the teachings of those taught by St. John himself and the other apostles, those we call ante-Nicene fathers, who’s teachings stood for 1800 years? Personally, I add a significant amount of more weight on those taught by the living apostles than those who include teaching the new revelation pre-trib rapture doctrine. We can agree to disagree, and in the end it’s up to each of us in this regard.
As to your research about MacDonald and Irving, please allow me to express my disagreement with you on your summary dismissal of MacPherson simply because he spent significant time debunking pre-trib. If we use that same standard, then we must dismiss all the pre-trib teachers on the other side of the aisle who do the same. I think if you read MacPherson’s work and, more importantly, check out the sources he provides, you’ll find he’s done an excellent job of documentation, not perfect, but a good source of documented research.
Also, in your research on MacDonald, I’m certain you found information to corroborate what I said above in my Oct 3, 3:59pm post:
“And soon after her “new revelation” from God (really?), she told Irving about it, and he twisted what she said even more into a secret rapture lie that it is.”
I’m also fairly sure that your research showed that it was this “twisting” by Irving into the new secret pre-trib rapture where this doctrine began. That’s the irony, or should I say chaos that comes from involvement with the demonic as MacDonald (and Irving’s church) apparently were involved with.
At any rate, my point about MacDonald, Irving and Darby was that all of this pre-trib rapture doctrine started with occultist MacDonald and her pastor, Irving–it was actually Irving who first espoused the new secret rapture doctrine. The rest is researchable and verifiable history. This is the root of the whole doctrine, and that was my point. Can a bad vine produce good fruit?
And by the way, most of the debunking offered by pre-trib scholars are the same people who have also lied to promote pre-trib, e.g., Walvoord, et al, and the same Dallas Seminary that has indoctrinated thousands and thousands of pastors and other “scholars.” So, while they have “already debunked” MacPherson’s work, my answer is, Really, you trust those who lie on Scripture (for crying out loud), but trust their debunking? Sorry, but in my Biblical world, when one goes so far as to lie to support a Biblical position, I care not for whatever else they may say. Just my own view and reasoning.
So, my brother, kudos to you on your research; but please don’t stop there–check out the documented proof of MacPherson (and others’) work, and read the ante-Nicene fathers before you conclude that just because Ironside was a loving fellow believer, that you can follow his teaching that flies in the face of those who were taught by the apostles themselves, e.g., Irenaeus, Hippolytus, etc.
Thank you again for your blessing, and may I likewise implore our Lord’s grace upon you.
In His love and truth,
Dear Mick, with lots of love!
You believe in Margaret McDonalds occult vision as it is a POST-TRIB vision, NOT a pre-trib vision – I went to read the vision for myself and low and behold, whoever said it was Pre-trib rapture was smoking their socks. It’s Post-Trib Rapture she is speaking of as Margret clearly states that the church goes through the tribulation!
Imagine that, the ball is in your court.
Love and peace (Do I sound like a nicer person now?)
Hi Deborah, it does not surprise me in the least that Post-Tribbers would use one of their own fellow Post-Tribbers and claim they were actually Pre-Trib!
As Satan himself is a liar, and was one from the beginnining, we can only expect him to lead people astray by the same deceptions that have worked for him since the time of Adam and Eve–and who knows how further back than that when he encouraged the demons to rebel.
I have found Post-Tribbers ready to believe, without proof, any ridiculous claim to discredit the biblical Pre-Trib view. They ignore or–even worse!–contradict 1 Thessalonians 5:21 & 1 John 4:1.
They use all kinds of spurious arguments to contradict that which the Bible teaches; and they usually centre these arguments around the idea that the Rapture is a fairly new idea and only quote believers from Victorian or Georgian times who endorsed it. This is in spite of the fact that Ephrem wrote about it around the 3rd century. Never mind that it’s written of earlier than that by others since the–and even earlier, right there in Scripture!
I know a Calvinist who does similar things on a blog he runs and he just ignores any points that refute his paradigm. (Of course Calivinists do that with everything they believe, so no surprise there.) It’s a case of you can take a horse to the well but you can’t makeit drink.
The fact that Post-Tribbers use deceit and slander and resort to lies and insult shows exactly the spirit behind their dogma. Needless to say they wouldn’t do those things if they knew the Bible and were led by God’s Spirit.
I think the funniest claim they make is that the Rapture is a Jesuit idea. Jesuit! The Jesuits are the Gestapo of the Vatican. (Hitler publicly claimed he built the Gestapo on the Jesuits and called Goebels his Ignatius Loyala.) Catholicism is utterly opposed to the Rapture idea and always has been. Catholicism is totally Amillenialist and preterit and yet Post-Tribbers would have us believe the Rapture was a Jesuit idea. Could anything be more ridiculous?
It is interesting that Post Tribbers will look for any heretic who believes in the Rapture to condemn it and at the same time ignore worse heretics like utterly cruel, merciless men such as the Inquisitors and Calvin who were Post-Tribbers.
So I’m not in the least bit surprised that another one of their lame excuses for refusing to believe in the scriptural Rapture is as false as the others. Well done for your research.
I like Dave Hunt’s take on Post Trib arguments. He says that it doesn’t matter who says what about the Raputre. He gets it straight from the Bible. That’s where it is, no matter what its detractors say.
Thanks for reaffirming the pre-trib issue.
Do you have a diagram to attach the scriptures to in a mental image?
Thnx Debbie. When I read the title& first few lines, I just nodded my head – so so true, I encounter these pple ALL THE TIME. My hubby & I grew up as dispensationalists believing in a pre-trib rapture. Gone are these teachings today and it deeply saddens us that many many believers today don’t even know what we’re talking about. It’s comforting to know DTW shared the proper Biblical views, especially on this matter. My crown awaits me for I LOVE HIS APPEARING!! I live for the day He personally calls me “come up hither”. All Glory to our Lord
[deleted by DTW – sorry I am no longer allowing your comments, you are actually looking for an argument.]
A diagram? Oh no I don’t have that… there are diagrams out there I am sure.
You can delete my posts and hide your deceptions, Deborah; but like I said in the post you just deleted, God is watching you–repent from these deceptions, Sister, please, for your sake.
Still in His love and truth for you,
Oh now I must repent.. lol Mick, you are a funny character.
I think you need to read your dear Margret MacDonald’s vision because it pertains to POST-TRIB not pre-trib 🙂 So, you Mick are the one following OCCULT visions, not me.
You know well what I’m talking about Deborah, and so does God. You judged me and deleted your judgment of me, along with other deletions, to elevate yourself and demonize me–Saul Alinsky would be proud of you–you are following his tactics to discredit to the step.
God knows and because you have done this to me, I am going to expose you–yes, I have PDF copies of what you’ve deceptively done, i.e., proof, and I am going to expose you for the lies and deception.
For I am, and have been
The least of His servants and a watchman on the wall–you should be more careful in front of whom you practice lies and deception–this is what we watchman do.
I say again, Repent.
Because I love you with the love of our Lord,
[EDITED – What are you speaking about? I edit stuff to ADD extra comment, not delete, and if something was deleted it was by accident. I am having severe problems with my internet this side and sometimes have to approve a comment like 10 times before it goes live, there have been times when I have deleted peoples entire comments because I was highlighting over it as I read it and then my internet kicked in and posted the comment. I am battling here to keep this boat afloat. So Mick, in all LOVE you talk nonsense. And anything you say will be a lie. Love me with the love of the Lord? I don’t think so. You see that is why I do not give love and hugs to people I do not know, because you just don’t know WHO YOU ARE REALLY talking too.
Now please, don’t comment again, I’m not interested.]
John Chingford emailed me as he is having problems posting comments…
Your comment above is absolutely spot on. It is exactly what I would have said. I recommend that everybody re-reads it. It can be found quickly by clicking on this link http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-224598
I would add that ALL of us must be ALWAYS wrong on our views of the rapture because NONE of us are perfect and all of us have done things (at times) which might discredit our faith. Therefore, those who use the argument that a teaching must be wrong because of the person who delivered the message, must ALSO state that their own teachers are also wrong because these teachers are ALSO fallible.
Remember that Jesus did not come to save the righteous but SINNERS. We are ALL sinners saved by grace. We are a WORK-IN-PROGRESS and WILL get things wrong in the process, but that doesn’t make the truth we speak an untruth. Jesus STILL wants to use us as His mouthpiece regardless of the fact that we are not perfect.
Therefore, we CANNOT use arguments like the false Margaret McDonald incident to debunk what the BIBLE teaches. Let us STOP using silly “straw man” or similar arguments to disprove what the Bible ACTUALLY teaches. Let us STICK to discussing the Bible ALONE.”
God bless Sister
You (just like Catholics and Calvinists) base your whole theology on what the church fathers taught. Were these Fathers correct in what they wrote? Shouldn’t your theology be based TOTALLY on what the BIBLE teaches?
The ONLY church fathers I trust are from the FIRST apostles, Peter, Paul, James, Jude and John. However, (even then) it is only what was written by them in the canonical books of the Bible that I trust.
Paul tells us in his letters that he spent much of his time WARNING night and day “with tears flowing” about the wolves about to come into the church to ravage the sheep. Paul said that this would happen shortly after his departure and also said that it was already starting to happen. Therefore, HOW can you trust the writings of the church fathers in the second century onwards? They are probably the wolves that Paul was referring to.
The teaching of a pretrib rapture is OBVIOUS to anybody who reads the Bible ALONE without being influenced by extra biblical writings or preconceived teachings.
Right on John! And influenced Mick certainly is by these church fathers…
Hi Debs and all fellow brothers and sisters,
I have been reading through the comments on here and I would like to add some myself.
I believed the pre trib rapture, through my association with the Assemblies Of God church that I attended for many years. However, at that time, I was still blind to many of the truths that God has since opened my eyes to understand and see. Including false teaching of the AOG.
Anyway, to cut a very long story short, as I began to read the scriptures properly, and as I searched, I beagn to feel unsure of what I believed or understood about the rapture. I spent HOURS researching, reading, studying, and even after that I was to-ing and fro-ing! I discussed my feelings with people I trust,but I still had doubts.
I am not quite sure when the truth slotted into place, but it did, and it was a relief and a breakthrough! Even now the devil tries to tempt me into doubt, but at last I am at peace!!
I am including a link, which I do not know if Debs will post or not, but it is regarding Dave MacPherson. I have been researching freemasonry for a long time, and I am blown away at how many Catholics are involved in freemasonry.. the Pope denounces it and calls Catholics to leave freemasonry, so it is said..but then in my reading, I find that freemasonry and Catholicism are tied together over and over again. Think about politicians like Tony Blair.. and many others, who are ‘mates’ with the Pope, yet they are into freemasonry/illuminati! I would just like to warn you all, these roots run extremely deeply, and not only that, they are twisted and twisted together, Very often, as the saying goes, things are not what they seem. I have discovered just how EVIL and deceiving satan can really be with people that are ignorant or undiscerning!
Ephesians 6;12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
1 Peter 5;8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Ephesians 6:16 – Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Ephesians 6;11 – Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Ephesians 6:15 – And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Ephesians 6:17 – And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Ephesians 6:14 – Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Back to Dave MacPherson, he is in ‘cahoots’ with Joe Ortiz,a man that is a real wolf in sheeps clothing. Joe is vehemently post trib and has written books debunking pre trib, as well as having many other false teachings.
I became acquainted with an older gentleman, Alf Hutchison, (quite by ‘chance’) who shares past history with me in that we were both born and brought up in Zimbabwe. I came to find out that this man, has his own ‘ministry’ in South Africa (though how he became a pastor or how the ministry came about, he will not tell me). Then I discovered that he is friends with Joe Ortiz, and they advertise each other on their collective ‘ministry sites’. On looking into Joe Ortiz, I find he has a Catholic background, a strong one, and he does not seem to have turned his back on Catholicism.. Hmm..this man Joe Ortiz teaches that believers will go through the tribulation, and his friend, Alf Hutchison, continuosly defends Catholics. Alf Hutchison believes that Christians that support Israel are evil, he also states that Jesus IS NOT A JEW (!!!), and of course he believes in the whole Replacement Theology.
So what is this to do with Dave MacPherson, well, both these men, Joe Ortiz and Alf Hutchison are friends with him. One, Dave MacPherson is anti pre trib, which we already know, two, he is involved with men that are ecumenical in thinking.. three, he must believe that Jesus is not a Jew.. and four.. he is involved with WALT DISNEY. You might say and so what..? Well, Disney was a paedophile and a freemason, and the following link shows us just how involved Dave and his family are with Disney!
There are three things that stand out to me everytime I start digging.. Catholicism, Freemasonry and anti pre trib. Always connected, despite that the Pope calls for men to leave freemasonry (hmm). Anti pretrib because that distracts Christians into waiting for the Messiah to return to earth.. and not looking up for Jesus, our Blessed Hope. And thus the anti Christ will come into the world and deceive them. By the way, as you know, the Pope visited the UK recently, at the Queen’s invitation (more ecumenial ties). Not only that but the Queen (and the Royal family, plus other royals) are involved with paganism, freemasonry etc.
I would just like to add something else here. When sin is rampant in someone’s life,or a church or an institution of any kind.. one of the first things to rear it’s ugly head, is sexual sin. So think about Catholicism and sexual sin (priests and nuns!).. think about Disney (sexual abuse, sexual imagery in cartoons and films) Think about past presidents such as those in America who have committed sexual sin, these men have been/ are all, freemasons.
Oh what a tangled web the devil weaves!! Christians hold fast to your faith and defend yourself with the truth..buckle up for a bumpy ride until Jesus takes us home!!
Mick, if the McDonald statement that Deborah posted does not convince you to disconnect her from this discussion, I don’t know what will. You have chosen to continue in your delusion. You are listening to the wrong voices. Dr. Ironside to the best of my knowledge does not refer to or credit anyone except the Holy Spirit in his writings. He was an intinerant preacher for most of his life and walked closely with the Lord which is evident in his writings. He was an expositor of the Word, not a promoter of any particular viewpoint. He did not distort scripture to fit in with his views, rather he was given a true gift of being able to expound upon the scriptures and explain truth.
Anyone who turns to Dave MacPherson as an authority on debunking pre-trib theology has gone to the right place, but are plugging into the WRONG agenda. That should be clear. You are going to broken cisterns for your information, and that includes the so-called church fathers.
The Blessed Hope as supported in the Word of God from the days of the early Church (not the church fathers) is under attack from every direction as we near the time of the end. This is a distraction to turn our attention AWAY from the Lord and His coming for His Bride and onto events in the world and speculation as to the identity of the Anti-Christ.
Your idea that those who are clinging to the Blessed Hope will be chewed up by the Anti-Christ and will cave in is just ludicrous! This sounds like the Dominionist Joel’s Army rhetoric. Yes, we are to put on the full armor of God, but it is HIS armor, NOT our own! We are to depend upon HIM, NOT ourselves! Many Christians are fearful and stocking up food and ammo and are all wrapped up in the political scene and worried about election outcomes, etc. We are to watch for our LORD Who is coming as He promised for His Bride, the Church and that is our Blessed Hope! Can you not see the contrast?
And as for Deborah and taking the heat, sir, you have no idea of the “heat” she takes and the courage it takes for her to do this blog. I assume you have never been on the front lines in such a way. She tells it like it is and she is a fierce defender of the truth. You have no idea of the obstacles she has to overcome to do this work because she does it quietly and with the strength of the Lord with no complaints. The attacks come not only from detractors, but they come from the enemy of our souls.
I would encourage you to look to the heavens and redeem the time by sharing the Gospel of Christ. That would be time well spent instead of debunking and debating against pretrib. Another one who has done his homework well is John Chingford who has posted here. A true student of the Word. He has a website and you will find much good info there if you will but open your mind.
We are trying to help you gain clarity so that you will have peace in the chaos of this world. One cannot possibly have peace without the Blessed Hope as we see the world crumbling around us. There is no way one can “prepare” and “train” for the Great Tribulation. We are to do our work NOW of sharing the true Gospel and discipling new converts before the door closes on the Church Age. We will all give account for what we have done in the time allotted and opportunities given.
Thank you for that insightful information.
Redeemed said “Dave MacPherson built upon Tregelles’ accusation, and claimed the source for Darby’s rapture was from an utterance of Margaret MacDonald.”
But when you look at the actual vision of this girl one can clearly see that it’s POST-TRIB. It would appear that Dave MacPherson is nothing but a liar. He took a demonic vision that SUPPORTS his beliefs and turned it around to make it appear that it was a vision supporting pre-trib rapture. And now every Tom, Dick and Mick believes Dave MacPherson’s lies and does not bother to check to see if he is speaking the truth.
Makes you wonder why Mick never bothered to do a background check on McPherson….or anything else he palms of as ‘historical documentation’ LOL
Me thinks dem birds of a feather flocketh together…
I still have much to learn on this topic, but when I read Vincent’s request for a diagram (not sure just what kind of diagram he had in mind), I remembered that I had come across quite a few diagrams on this topic (amongst others, diagrammatic depictions of the difference between pre-, post- and a-a-millennialism) in a sermon series by David Legge (who also calls himself, pre-trib). Not sure if it would be okay to post a link, webadress, etc.?
I can’t remember EVER hearing ANY teaching about this topic in all my time in “church”, which I am really glad for now!
Yes, I have found it is always wise to do checks and more checks on people and ministries. The further you dig, the more you find, and sometimes it is very surprising!!
I also realised what happened there with Margaret MacDonald.. the old devil is so sly eh?!
LOL, you said it Debs, birds of a feather sure do stick together!!
Thank you Myfanwy for bringing forth this information that has come together for you as you diligently sought the Lord’s truth. This is a testimony that we need to dig deeper because things are not always what they seem to be at first look.
Yes, we need to ask Mick why he did not do his homework on MacPherson as he claims to have done with Scofield, etc. Or is he simply regurgitating what people like MacPherson are saying and accepting their claims at face value?
I truly hope that he is sincere and will face up to the facts and realize he has been sold a load of rotten fruit.
The message that Deborah had the courage to post is one that the Church needs to hear today, including those who present themselves as watchpeople and use their influence to discredit the Blessed Hope. I would like to think they are sincerely misled, but they would tell us that they have studied and searched. But obviously they have been deluded. How ironic!
[deleted – Mick, your comments are bewildering to say the least – you are sly and oose greasy grace and false love and you preach a FALSE DOCTRINE – you are nothing but satan’s little henchman – go away now!]
Vincent, if you are looking for diagrams of the time periods of the Bible, you can check out Clarence Larkin online. He was noted for his drawings. You can even order some of his books on prophecy. He, like Dr. Ironside has gone to his reward but his legacy has been preserved. Just do a search with his name and it will pull up sites.
Mick, we have done our very best to help you come to clarity and a scriptural understanding of eschatology concerning the Blessed Hope. We have tried to reason with you and present Scripture and rightly divide the Word. You are an example of the sad departure that has occurred in the Church today and it is detrimental to the Lord’s work and the attitude of Christians. You have bought into a delusion that is a detriment to yourself and others. Knock yourself out reading MacPherson and others who share your delusion.
Hi Deborah, I’ve been in a debate with someone who was a friend and is an anti-Rapture proponent. He, like Mick, side-steps what’s been put to him and comes back with straw men and ad hominem arguments, despite biblical quotes I’ve given him.
He has then accused me of persecuting him because I keep asking him questions regarding Scripture–reminding him I’m commanded to do so [1 Thess 5:21 & 1 John 4:1]–and which he’s refused to answer.
He either utterly ignores the questins or retorts with statements that are neither logical or even factual, let alone biblical. Yet he is convinced he is chosen to have a special a ministry from God.
Other friends who have come off his blog list–that he presumptuously sent to us without even asking–are now shocked by his beliefs. Hardly surprising as he is teaches on his blog that man has not been on the moon and that the whole universe and billions of far-off galaxies are oribiting the earth every 24 hours.
Don Quixote jumps to mind!
After sending me some blasphemous Calvinist statements, I replied that I didn’t want any more. I then received worse nonsense so told him I was coming off his blog completely.
He replied claiming that I am still a Catholic (despite comments I have written about Catholicism on Amazon reviews and that he already knows my views about that “Church”). He also claimed that I am following Dave Hunt who he claims is some kind of Jesuit propagandist. (Seriously, Dave Hunt a propagandist for the Jesuits! The mind boggles.)
The ironical thing is that, as a Calvinist, he is an amillienialist, an esteemer of Augustine, believes in regeneration befor baptism, the efficacy of baptism and all the other Catholic dogmas that Lutherians and Calvinists still avow. In fact, he’s more of a Catholic than I or any of my family ever were!
He also resorted to insults and accused me of instulting him. My insults were that I quoted the bible and a few scientific facts. He called this list of facts a rant though, in his mind, unsubstantiated accusations of my being a Catholic are not a rant!
He also accused me of being childish.
Besides the fact that he is a follower of a men when he is the one who puts his trust in flesh–Calvinists!
The reason I mention this, Deborah, is after reading Mick’s comments to you. I just wanted to let you know that there are people out there who only want to dictate. When you go straight to the Scriptures and other facts, they sidestep them–just as you’ve shown by the facts (and biblical facts at that) which you’ve presented to Mick. Then, like the Accuser, they accuse those who are ready to be corrected from Scripture when they think they themselves are beyond correction.
Then they resort to insult and spiritual threat as Mick did with you.
It’s like you said to Mick, he only wants to argue.
These religous people remind me of political zealots. You don’t have a debating point with them. The book of Proverbs warns of such folk. They only want others to believe what they themselves claim is truth.
I admire the way you handled Mick. Few people have had your patience. Dealing with such people is like spitting against the wind. They are best left alone. There is a time when we have to ignore a fool in his folly.
However, I’m glad you put on the exchanges. It is a reminder to us all what we have to face with unreasonable people. I’m sure it will help others who read them to be prepared.
[Deleted by DTW – Burt – READ THE COMMENTS PLEASE]
Regarding these ante-Nicene church fathers…
It is interesting to note that most ante-Nicene church fathers that Mick follows came from heathen backgrounds, became so called ‘Christians’ and then subsequently became unbelievers again after writing tons of so called ‘orthodox Christian’ writings. There are only a small handful who remained Christian. Interesting to note that only a small handfull of these ante-Nicene church fathers were taught buy the Biblical Apostles; there rest were not.
Never the less, God commends us to READ the bible, His Word, not get our beliefs from books, volumes and manuscripts written by people who supposedly knew people from the bible.
I posted the above article by Dr Harry Ironside, not because I got my beliefs from him, but because what he found from scripture is exactly what I found from scripture.
I stated in the very beginning that I studied the Bible searching this topic and was guided by the Holy Spirit as to what as correct and what was not correct. Mick clearly states the reverse, he gets his beliefs from the church fathers and not the Holy Spirit, in fact Mick says that if you are guided by the Holy Spirit in this regard you are making ‘assumptions’.
Thank you for you comment. Are you sure we were not arguing the same people, because I was told I am ‘ranting’ as well by another person who I deleted. Anyhow, I have tons of patience (kinda, lol) especially when it’s time to expose them for who and what they are.
>> Dealing with such people is like spitting against the wind
Gotta do, whatcha gotta do!
[deleted by DTW – sorry Linda, but I am tired of having people come and post their false teaching on my blog]
On doing some research on Linda Strawn:
On facebook pace she likes satanic music Pink Floyd (Music inspired by Aleister Crowley)
The Roman Catholic Billy graham Library is on her list.
She is a huge Glen Beck fan, it seems as she joined a “pray for Glen Beck” group. – GLEN BECK IS A MORMON!
Links to The Voice of the Martyrs – a Known false teacher website
She linked to the Lausanne Movement – An ECUMENICAL MOVEMENT set up by Billy Graham.
Did she sign the Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience?
That says enough about Linda Strawn. No wonder I will never believe her PRE-WRATH rapture theory.
URGENT – It has come to my attention that Alf Hutchison (or his acquiescence) frequent DTW. Alf Hutchison took this comment below and then some, and posted it on a facebook group and is now threatening Myfanwy with legal action.
This is my response to Alf Hutchison – this is a free country, freedom of speech is allowed (unless you are in the ANC). Now go and grow some hairs on your chest and just face up to the the FACTS presented. Don’t threaten us ALF HUTCHISON if you believe in FALSE DOCTRINES (Replacement Theology) and support FALSE RELIGIONS (Roman Catholicism) and are bestest friends with men like Joe Ortiz who believes as you do.]
To all participants in any Internet threads that discuss issues of theology, remember, when a person begins attacking you and your character rather than responding to a point that was made by another person, without scripture-based data and or information, or responds solely with Ad-hominem and defamatory statements against a person’s character, even by inference, THEY ARE COMMITTING A SIN AND WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD! Especially if that person (or persons) are not part of the conversation, or who have been denied the opportunity to respond to any allegations made against them.
Ad-hominem: Appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect;marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made. Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.
It can also be considered as acts of perjury and slander. In other words. bearing “false witness against they neighbor,(Exodus 20:16).” Also, “But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment, (Matthew 12:36).”
You will probably delete this brief caveat inspired by the word of God; so be it.
Nevertheless, it should be noted that God’s true messengers do not need to use personal attacks on those who may have a variance in their respective doctrines. After all, the bottom line is that the Holy Spirit will convict (or confirm) the truth of God’s word to the participants in these “Iron sharpening iron” discussions. Those who are convinced and convicted by their Bible interpretations do not need to attack others; their trust in the specific word of God is sufficient because His word does not return void. If we have to resort to deleting comments or attacking a person’s character, then one wonders how much they trust their interpretation.
Is that clanging noise I hear made by “iron sharpening iron,” or is it the sound of swords being used by sisters stabbing brothers in the back?
Piece and blessings to all committed to evangelizing God’s truth!
>> To all participants in any Internet threads that discuss issues of theology, remember, when a person begins attacking you and your character rather than responding to a point that was made by another person, without scripture-based data and or information, or responds solely with Ad-hominem and defamatory statements against a person’s character, even by inference, THEY ARE COMMITTING A SIN AND WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD!…………….bla bla bla………It can also be considered as acts of perjury and slander.
Hahahaha LOL, nice try, but no can do. First) No one has made any defamatory statements, secondly) no one has attacked your character and thirdly) If you are a false teacher which I plan on proving without a shadow of a doubt in the coming days (this includes Alf Hutchinson), then you will be held accountable to God 🙂
I moderate my blog (that means I delete comments) because I do not want my blog over run by FALSE TEACHING. It’s as simple as that.
PS, I am so not your sister in anything. You are false and go against everything I stand for – that being the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The purpose really was to to apply Jud 1:23 to your friend Mick…
If his collar held… “we’d” do it all over again.
Is this not one of your phrases? – and I quote
Mr. Ortiz, I totally agree with you that we will all be accountable to the One and Only Righteous Judge, the Lord God Almighty. Honestly, I am confounded as to why certain people find it necessary to hurl threats of legal action against those who differ? Is not the Bema Seat sufficient? Where are the lies and slander here? I only saw documented information.
This thread started with a biblical exposition of the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine. Dr. Ironside is a teacher of sound doctrine which is documented throughout his commentaries. He has since gone to his reward, and the Holy Spirit was his inspiration, not some delusional teenage girl. In fact, Deborah quite effectively defused that argument with direct quotes attributed to Margaret McDonald.
This is a doctrine that needs to be clarified and defended as there is much confusion in the Body of Christ concerning the Rapture. The sheep are being robbed of the Blessed Hope. It is NOT an escape! It is the culmination of the Church Age, when we are to be about fulfilling the Lord’s mandate of the Great Commission. THAT is to be our focus,
not looking for the Anti-Christ and being concerned with the chaotic events we are seeing unfold in the world. Christians at large are overly concerned with the economy, politics, speculation about current events which are all distractions to keep us from watching and waiting for our Lord’s return for His Bride.
I don’t pretend to be a Bible scholar, but I do know one when I see one as I bear witness through the Holy Spirit. I have tested and examined the various eschatological views for many years and Pre-trib is always reconfirmed as biblical truth. The Blessed Hope brings me joy and peace in the midst of the storms of life and the wickedness of the world. My focus is on sharing the Gospel and reaching the lost and fulfilling the mandate given by our Lord in the Great Commission because the time is short.
I find it quite sad that you and others who have posted here reject the Blessed Hope. It is under attack as never before. Dave MacPherson is a “johnny one note” who has devoted his life to debunking the Blessed Hope. I don’t doubt his sincerity, but he is sincerely wrong. This is part of the delusion of the last days. This is not a personal attack ad hominen or otherwise, on him or others who attack this precious truth and refuse to rightly divide the Word.
I see attack after attack online of the Pre-trib Rapture, calling it false doctrine and a lie of Satan. THIS is an ad hominem attack. The author of this blog has every right and as she sees a responsibility to defend it, NOT for her own sake, but for the sake of the flock who are being misled. In doing so, the CREDIBILITY of those who are launching the attacks naturally comes into question. That sir, is NOT perjury or lies or bearing false witness as you assert. As believers we need to be ABOVE REPROACH. To the best of my knowledge there have been no lies or perjury of any kind done here by anyone. That is your interpretation NOT based on fact.
You choose to deflect the truth presented here with unfounded allegations. That sir is very telling. Make your own application.
To: Joe Ortiz and Alf Hutchison.
I think it is a bit rich that you both accuse me of attacking you personally, when you both have done exactly that, to me, on Alf Hutchison’s facebook page! Joe, you called me MyFanny, deliberately twisting my WELSH name from it’s true meaning, on Alf’s page, and when I asked you about it, you basically said I deserved having you call me that name! Why? Because I told you that your teachings were wrong. Is that not a PERSONAL attack Joe Ortiz?? For disagreeing with you on teaching?
Alf has attacked me personally too, on a social facebook page (in fact, two pages). He deliberately set about to ‘bear bait’ me by starting a thread on one page, when I had NOT brought up the subject of religion.. and people from that group were not happy to discuss religion. This ended up causing animosity in the group.. which I have since left. Alf has also aimed comments at me on other threads, (said facebook pages) also DELIBERATELY trying to draw me into an argument. My comments on these threads were not aimed at him, in ANY way or form! I have noticed that he seems to ‘watch’ me when I come online into these groups.
So, Joe and Alf, before you point a finger at me on here, I suggest you see the four fingers pointing back at yourselves!
Alf Hutchison, for a man that has such a large ministry to look after, (you told me that it is the largest in southern Africa, or something to that effect) plus a pool business, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time online watching me and what I comment on, even though it has nothing to do with you. In fact, a few weeks ago I went onto your facebook page, and I asked that we forgive each other for our past arguments, altho’ I did state that we would have to agree to disagree. I did this because I did not wish to bring our personal belief differences onto our non- Christian social sites.
So in conclusion.. I really cannot see how either Alf or Joe can accuse me of anything when they have said and done the above! And I do not have a ‘ministry’, I do not write books or have ministry sites.. I have not set myself up in public as a leader or minister, in which case you are anwerable to other Christians…and God.
>> on Alf Hutchison’s facebook page! Joe, you called me MyFanny, deliberately twisting my WELSH name from it’s true meaning, on Alf’s page, and when I asked you about it, you basically said I deserved having you call me that name!
WOW, now that is shocking! Joe Ortiz for a so called Christian to have such language come out of your mouth is disgusting. But then we know that you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing eh? And calling her that name is par for the course.
>> I think it is a bit rich that you both accuse me of attacking you personally, when you both have done exactly that, to me, on Alf Hutchison’s facebook page!
Yes, imagine that.
I was not familiar with Mr. Ortiz and am not on Facebook. I discovered one of his blogs and I was shocked to see that he is so far off the charts in a multitude of areas. This A QUOTE FROM HIS OWN BLOG dedicated to “proving” that Christians WILL Go Through The Tribulation. Absolutely unbelievable!!
“In his two books, Ortiz not only challenges and shatters the Premillennial and Dispensational doctrines, he provides Biblical documentation that refute many of the notions held by traditional evangelicals and contemporary theologians, including proof that the Christian Church is not the Bride of the Lamb, that there will be no 1000 year (millennial) reign of Christ, that the human soul does not go to Heaven upon death, that the church of God was formed thousands of years before The Day of Pentecost, and that Christians will not be “Raptured” to Heaven. He also presents sound Bible answers that challenge the erroneous notion by certain right wing evangelicals that the Jewish people of Israel are the chosen people of God, and that the region now known as Israel in the Middle East is the Promised Land.”
How DARE Mr. Ortiz claim to be a man of God when he stoops to such a low level of twisting a name into a disgusting perversion. Anyone can make a typo, but this obviously was a deliberate attempt to demean. Credibility? Mr. Ortiz and his ilk have NONE and probably don’t even know the meaning of the word!!
Gee and to think Mick and Joe Ortiz are budz.
Joe is Mexican not Welch I have often wanted to write your name that way … that is really pathetic …you cannot challenge his theology so challenge his integrity …why is it that pre-tribbers are so touchy…probably because they are so good at telling lies it becomes second nature. Muffy I find it so odd that you suck up to Deborah but when Joe and I talked of Israel you condemned us …what exactly do you believe ? We do not advocate Replacement theology at all in fact I am in agreement with most things I have read re Israel…Israel is the whore of Revelation…The Synagogue of Satan not Rome or the RCC. Try bashing the Zionists who are the ones who don’t believe in Jesus as the Christ.
Does all this pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib really matter? Will your choice of what you believe bring you into or keep you out of heaven? I think not. What matters is do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Have you repented of your sins. Are you living to please him? I actually don’t know how I ended up here, but I find almost all of the comments so sad and a terrible witness to a hurting world.
One small comment and I’ll leave it at that. I did not enter this thread to debate the issues under discussion. Everything will be revealed in due time. I came in to address one issue and that alone. Thank you Ms Deborah for not deleting my initial comments.
My one question is directed to Ms. Brown, which is this: You posted on this thread that (and I quote): “On looking into Joe Ortiz, I find he has a Catholic background, a strong one, and he does not seem to have turned his back on Catholicism.”
I would like to see actual and factual proof of this claim. My concern is that you connect that statement with a follow up comment: “I would just like to add something else here. When sin is rampant in someone’s life,or a church or an institution of any kind.. one of the first things to rear it’s ugly head, is sexual sin. So think about Catholicism and sexual sin (priests and nuns!).. think about Disney (sexual abuse, sexual imagery in cartoons and films) Think about past presidents such as those in America who have committed sexual sin, these men have been/ are all, freemasons.”
It is obvious by your subtle wording that you are trying to disparage my character by associating me with sexual sin through those two statements.
I have no problem defending my eschatological findings that I have written in my two books. I spent 25 years of study in this matter before publishing them. I started writing them in 1984 and for the most part finished them in 1986; however, I spent the next 20 years going over and over the original manuscript to make sure what wrote was biblically-based before publishing it. I didn’t write these two books to gain glory, fame or fortune but rather to alert my brothers and sisters in Christ that tough times lay before us and we are not prepared. Therefore, I daily send out free PDF copies to whomever wants to examine the material contained therein. I’m amazed how people can make comments or even attack the books (and my character) before even examining the material. I don’t normally debate the material online due to the limited space and time, but I stand behind my research.
Therefore, my concern for even responding to this is what Ms. Brown is asserting, concerning my supposedly being a staunch Catholic. For the record, I left the Catholic Church when I was 13 years old because of corrupt priests, and (other than to attend my fathers funeral in 1987) have never been back nor support the Catholic Church nor its dogma whatsoever. 20 years later I accepted Christ at an Assemblies of God Church in California in 1975. Therefore to imply that I am still staunch Catholic and that I may be a sexual sinner as many Catholic priests are, is an Ad-hominen attack on my character. It is this specific innuendo that disturbed me to respond to such abhorrent allegation (even if by inference only) and wanted to let you know that perpetrators of such will be answerable to God. If not now, most certainly at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Concerning the Rapture, I was taught about the Rapture and believed in it for ten years until I began digging deeper in the word of God and found undeniable truth that we will not be caught to heaven for 7 years. We will have a meeting in the air with Jesus as He begins His final descent.
Other than having said this, it is futile to try to debate this on your forum.
Therefore, if you want FREE PDF copies, send me a request to [email removed for spam reasons] and I’ll send them right away.
Finally, many of us have been called by God to reach the lost and there are many who are being deceived by altered and false Gospel. When I share my findings with others it is not to prove I am more correct than them, but to share the word of God with fellow messengers (Iron sharpening iron). If it turns into a mean-spirited discussion, I leave and go elsewhere. But my only goal is to bring others closer to Jesus with love, patience and respect.
Therefore, if Ms Brown can provide visible and actual proof of her contentious inferences, about my supposed heavy connection to Catholicism, I believe an apology is in order. To the rest of you folks, I pray that whatever discussions you have concerning this Rapture matter will result in the Son of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, will receive the glory, rather than those who contribute our opinions on what God’s Word clearly states.
If you want to know who I really, and better understand what my purpose is in life, please read my testimony on my web site (at least before attacking my character),
Also, if you want to know more about me and my professional career, and what led me to Christ and the events and knowledge that prompted me to write my books, visit my other web site:
Once again, Ms Deborah, thank you for not deleting my response and allowing me the opportunity to explain my concerns. Wishing you much a success in your ministerial duties.
I’m In His Peace,
>> Joe is Mexican not Welch I have often wanted to write your name that way … that is really pathetic …you cannot challenge his theology so challenge his integrity.
Firstly, if you READ PROPERLY, no one said Joe is Welsh. Hmmm. Myfanwy is SPELT Myfanwy and no other way and I am sure Joe has the INTELLIGENCE to know that MyFanny is DEROGITORY not matter WHAT nationality you are.
>> why is it that pre-tribbers are so touchy… probably because they are so good at telling lies it becomes second nature.
We are touchy because as a ‘man of God’ notice that! called a woman a disgusting word. Pre-tribbers are not touchy we are shocked at the words that come out of your mouth!
>> probably because they are so good at telling lies it becomes second nature.
Now you accuse us falsely 🙂
>> Muffy I find it so odd that you suck up to Deborah but when Joe and I talked of Israel you condemned us …what exactly do you believe ?
There you go again calling her a DEROGITORY NAME. She beieves in pre-trib Alf!
>> We do not advocate Replacement theology at all in fact I am in agreement with most things I have read re Israel…Israel is the whore of Revelation…The Synagogue of Satan not Rome or the RCC. Try bashing the Zionists who are the ones who don’t believe in Jesus as the Christ.
Errrrrrr, thanks for EXPOSING YOURSELF in that magnificent comment of yours. Oh YES YOU DO BELIEVE in another form of REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. And YOU ALF HUTCHINSON are an undercover Catholic. You have taken scripture from the book of Revelation that depicts the Roman Catholic Church and the Vatican City and you have replaced Israel as the Whore and Jerusalem as the EVIL City. God’s Holy City, you have slandered and dragged through the mud and labelled EVIL.
The Roman Catholics have done well to turn the tide and infiltrate Jesus’ Church with it’s filth and this is what we have ended up with; The Roman Catholic Church has removed itself as the ‘enemy’ from the Bible and put Israel there instead. Now genuine born again Christians like myself and the many who frequent this blog who are not SYMPATHIZERS with Roman CATHOLICISM are EVIL, on the other hand Catholics and other ‘Christians’ who are happy to rub up against the Mother Church are the GOOD ONES.
>> Does all this pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib really matter?
Yes is does matter. Because 1) It means you are studying your bible 2) Because if you are not pre-trib and waiting for the Blessed Hope you probably NOT sympathizing with the Catholic Church because they too believe the church will go through the tribulation.
>> “I would like to see actual and factual proof of this claim. My concern is that you connect that statement with a follow up comment: “I would just like to add something else here. When sin is rampant in someone’s life,or a church or an institution of any kind.. one of the first things to rear it’s ugly head, is sexual sin. So think about Catholicism and sexual sin (priests and nuns!).. think about Disney (sexual abuse, sexual imagery in cartoons and films) Think about past presidents such as those in America who have committed sexual sin, these men have been/ are all, freemasons.” It is obvious by your subtle wording that you are trying to disparage my character by associating me with sexual sin through those two statements.
I never saw this connection that you saw. Let’s go back to her comment…
1) You do have a Catholic background
2) From reading your blog last night I can see from your ‘theology’ that you have not turned your back on Catholicism as you support ideologies that are in line with the RCC – i.e., Prewrath possibly Preterist? and anti-Israel (you believe as Alf Hutchinson does – who is a Catholic sympathizer of note.)
3) You are bestest budsz with Dave MacPherson who is ECUMENICAL to the hilt. Why would a so called genuine Christian be hanging around with such a man if he did not share the same ideas.
4) Myfanway pointed out that MacPherson (a supposed Christian) was involved with Walt Disney (a known Freemason and not so known child molester.)
I don’t see anywhere where Myfanwy making a sexual connection. I see a false doctrinal connection.
For the record, Dave MacPherson stood in line on opening day of Disneyland (July 18, 1955), thereby gaining the distinction of being the first paid customer ever to enter that world-renowned amusement center. Disneyland bestowed upon him a gift of a Free VIP pass for Life, where he and 3 other guests can enter the park anytime of the day, week, month of the year, for life.
I met Dave in 2001 and have remained friends with him and our wives and have no shame whatsoever in calling him a dear friend. The four of us have gone to Disneyland together on two occasions and had a great time. As to Walt Disney’s philosophy or theology, I’m not aware nor concerned. I let God handle that one.
I will turn 71 years of age on this coming October 16; which means I left the Catholic Church about 58 years ago. There are numerous church organizations that have varying doctrinal beliefs and also do not believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture to Heaven. Does this mean they are heathen and destined to Hell?
Dave believes in Post-Trib, but I don’t. To believe in Pre, Mid, Post or Pre wrath, means you accept the 70th week theory in Daniel, as well as a Seven Year period of Tribulation, which are not biblical; nor do I believe in the Preterist doctrine.
More importantly (based on the extensive research and study of God’s word (which for me includes over 40 years of study), what I present in my two books is based on an honest examination of the scriptures to arrive at truth. I do not profess to have all the answers as many people do. But once thing I’m certain of, which Paul tells us in Acts 14:22: “Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Many will place their hope in a Rapture to Heaven scenario, so be it. Many who believed in that doctrine have changed their mind after reading my books, and have joined me in sharing the mission to reach our fellow believers to prepare for great tribulation and persecution at the hands of antichristian forces by being faithful and loyal to God’s word and trust in Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, among those who will persecute the faithful will be many professing Christians who would not heed the word of God, instead they were looking for praise from man.
Blessings to you all!
Hope to see you at the great meeting in the air with Jesus, to escort Him back to earth and co-reign with Him for an eternity.
If you care to download FREE PDF copies of my two books, click on the following Links for Free PDF Copies of Joe Ortiz’ books
[DTW note: books removed, I wont be privy to have people download your false teaching from my blog.]
These are questions that need to be asked. Did either Mr. Ortiz or Mr. Hutchison apologize to Myfanwy for the insulting way they referred to her? And did Mr. Hutchison explain why he felt the need to threaten someone with legal action?
Like Deborah, I didn’t understand Myfanwy’s comments to in any way insinuate sexual sin on the part of Mr. MacPherson, Mr. Ortiz or Mr. Hutchison. Whether Mr. Disney was or was not what is reported about him is beside the point. It should be obvious to any discerning Christian that there are occultic overtones in Disney productions and parents should use caution in exposing their children to them. One would expect that those who consider themselves Bible scholars/authorities with websites and books on biblical topics to have a higher level of discernment. This goes to CREDIBILITY.
Mr. Ortiz portrays himself as a studied Bible scholar. But in fact by his own words he denies basic biblical doctrines and puts himself outside the bounds of Christian orthodoxy.
“In his two books, Ortiz not only challenges and shatters the Premillennial and Dispensational doctrines, he provides Biblical documentation that refute many of the notions held by traditional evangelicals and contemporary theologians, including proof that the Christian Church is not the Bride of the Lamb, that there will be no 1000 year (millennial) reign of Christ, that the human soul does not go to Heaven upon death, that the church of God was formed thousands of years before The Day of Pentecost, and that Christians will not be “Raptured” to Heaven. He also presents sound Bible answers that challenge the erroneous notion by certain right wing evangelicals that the Jewish people of Israel are the chosen people of God, and that the region now known as Israel in the Middle East is the Promised Land.”
There can certainly be honest differences regarding aspects of eschatology, but the Body of Christ is not the Bride of Christ? The soul of a Christian does not go to heaven upon death? The Church was formed before the giving of the Holy Spirit? Whoa! This is off the charts! And denying the geographical significance of the land of Israel? The term “right wing evangelicals” implies that Christians who acknowledge Israel are politically motivated. No, Mr. Ortiz, we are biblically informed aside from politics.
Mr. Ortiz claims to have renounced Roman Catholicism, but embraces certain aspects of their beliefs whether he realizes it or not. I see an element of pride in those who gather to themselves a following and their aberrent teachings whether there is monetary profit involved or not. Sadly, many in the Church today are confused and are sitting ducks for false teaching. There is nothing personal intended in exposing false teachers. It is for the sake of the sheep who are being led down a path leading over a cliff because these teachings are destructive. One can only hope that hearts are not so prideful and minds so deluded that repentance from a humble heart is still possible. Those who lead the sheep astray will give an account. Let it be understood that exposing false teachers is not a personal attack, but an act of obedience to defend the truth of our Lord and Savior. We all are to humbly examine ourselves to be sure we are in the faith and that it is not simply lip service.
Deborah, when you cut away most of a comment, as you did with mine, you should also include an admission of doing so in your reply. Of course, as the editor/moderator of this site you have that right to do anything you wish, but I think it would be more honest to just delete the whole comment instead of picking and choosing what you wish to let the world see.
Thanks for clarifying the Walt Disney saga.
What are you talking about? I didn’t cut away your comment. That first comment of yours is your whole comment – in it’s entirety. If all you are is looking for an argument, I will gladly delete your comments from now on.
Debs, since Joe Ortiz is asking me a question, above, I would like to answer that question.
I was NOT inferring that Joe Ortiz, Alf Hutchison or Dave MacPherson are involved with sexual sin. I was actually linking Catholicism and freemasonry to sexual sin.. and it is a fact that many Catholics are freemasons. Even the Pope is calling for Catholics to come out of freemasonry!
The point I was making regarding Dave MacPherson, is that he is supposed to be a man of God, and you would think that a man in his position would be careful who he affiliates himself with.. since Disney movies have both occult and sexual content. I am not a minister or leader of any type, and I will not go near ANYTHING DISNEY!!
As for the mis-spelling of my name..Joe Ortiz always managed to spell it correctly, and always with a small f..until I told him I was not interested in his teachings (I think I told him I would not read his book because I think it is rubbish). Then suddenly he addressed me as MyFanny.. and as soon as I saw it on the page, a sick feeling passed over me, I knew it was an attack. I then asked him and he said something to the effect that I had deserved him calling me that name. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing!!
I have to laugh because Alf Hutchison does not even seem to know what he believes half the time, nevermind what I believe! I am pre trib, and he has argued with me about the rapture on our social site and other places. How am I sucking up to Debs?? She knows that I believe as she does! I do not understand what Alf is talking about??? I can quite easily challenge Joe Ortiz on his theology Alf Hutchison, and I was doing so when talking to him.
Note how Mr Ortiz keeps trying to flog his books on people!!
I might not be some ‘big shot’ or have great eloquence in speaking, but I know the truth and no-one will dissuade me from that Biblical truth. Wisdom is not just for those men that think they know it all. In fact Joe Ortiz has an article on one of his pages which talks about this exact subject..
I will say this, I can smell a fake spirit of love from a mile away.. and I get no sense of true Christian love towards me, from Alf Hutchison or Joe Ortiz!! In fact it seems that Alf cannot wait to get his ‘claws in’ at me at every opportunity.
PS…I accept that I might be wrong in saying that Disney was a paedophile, I know I did find something about this, more than a year ago. I am careful in my research and I do not just believe anything I read, so I know I must have been convinced that he was a paedophile, at that time. However, if I am wrong, I apologise.
However, Walt Disney films have loads of occult and sexual (even if partially hidden) content, and if I had realised that when my children were small, I would not have allowed them to watch any Disney! Someone has said that Disney was trying to relive his childhood through his cartoons and films..who else does that make you think about..?? None other than Michael Jackson. I know that Disney was involved in some sort of Youth Masonic club, but some say that he did not continue to be a freemason. He was also connected to Robert Schuller of Crystal Cathedral who has also been listed as a freemason. No smoke without fire as far as I am concerned..
I have found more sincere love in more Catholics than the two of you have in your little fingers…you two will stand before almighty God and give an account one day of your false teachings and your pride and prejudice.And may He have mercy upon your souls. When the folk whom you are telling that they are safe from tribulation and will be in heaven for seven years, realize that they are going through that time of great tribulation and that you have lied to them…some even taking the mark of the beast and loosing salvation …their blood will be on your hands and God will hold you accountable…
EZEK 33:8 “When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.
As Joe rightfully says , it is useless even debating Holy Scripture with you …I just pray that He opens your eyes and ears to His truth…In Jesus name …
Ms. Brown, please accept my apologies for calling you”MyFanny.”
I was wrong and should not have stooped to this. I guess anger and frustration causes us to do some stupid things. Therefore, I apologize for that delinquent behavior.
Ms. Deborah, it is your prerogative to delete any portion of anything written on your site. My including the PDF copies was solely for the purpose for those who may want to examine the evidence can access it for free. If my goal was solely for profit, I obviously would not be giving them away.
For those who have a discerning spirit, obviously reading material that they believe goes contrary to the Bible, will be confirmed instantly. You are correct, the headlines I have on my web site obviously go against traditional doctrines. One of my claims that the church is not the Bride of the Lamb has caused on uproar with many traditional evangelicals. I believed that doctrine, but after spending 25 years in studying not just the Bible, but the etymology of certain words, the only conclusion is that people have been taught wrongly. Maybe not intentionally, but most certainly not deserving being called false prophets.
For example, author Tim LaHaye has sold over 65 million of his “Left Behind” books, all based on the premise that the group of scripture in Luke 17:34-36 speaks about “one being taken and one left behind, supposedly those left behind are unbelievers.” After serious examination (even examining the Textus Receptus (the original Greek manuscript), I could never find the word “behind” in those verse. More importantly, after examining the word “left” in numerous Greek dictionaries, some written over 200 years ago, the word used in that group to define the word “left” is the Greek word “aphieimi” which means “to forgive, leave them alone, do not touch them;” aphiemi is used twice in the Lord’s prayer to denote the word “forgive.” Therefore, what I present in my books are not my personal interpretations, conjecture nor assumption, I am noting exactly what is written in the Bible! My books contain another 150 key word definitions in the Bible that provide similar explanations; mainly the words have been misunderstood.
To take an exhaustive approach, spending hours and days digging deeply for 25 years into the true meaning of words has brought new information to the forefront, that has been in the Bible for over 2000 years, but no one took the time to compare how one word (such as aphiemi) can be used to identify two different words, such as “forgive” and “left.” [Please check your own Greek dictionary to verify my statement]
Yet, at least over 65 million people who have bought Tim LaHaye’s “Left Behind” books will swear they present truth: however, when placed under greater scrutiny, when examined more closely, they are contradistinctions to the word of God.
Once again, Ms Brown, please accept my apology. I should not let people getting in my face with false accusations make me lose my composure. I did and I’m sorry. I’m not perfect, I’m just saved!
[EDITED by DTW – John Chingford previously wrote asking Joe for an apology to Myfanwy. He wrote asking for that apology BEFORE Joe’s apology was published. However, John’s request got published AFTER Joe’s apology was given, which makes the sequence of comments look strange. Therefore, John has asked me to explain this and also say that he now respects the humility shown by Joe in giving that apology.]
Phewwww. Been away a few days and booooom!!!
Joe Ortiz, if you consider yourself to be a man of God then (as a man of God) show humility and brokenness to confess that you did wrong and apologise. What you said to my sister Myfanwy was at best disrespectful, unloving and nasty and at worst was absolutely disgusting!!!
Actually you DO show ALL the hallmarks of being an undercover Catholic. Your doctrine (as shown in your book) is undeniably Augustinian. Clearly you are an Augustinian 5 point Calvinist who believes the church was chosen thousands of years before Christ and therefore the predestined ones were already saved before they were born.
Do you not know that Augustine was a gnostic who “christianised” gnosticism? Basically, continuing to follow gnostic faith under a different name. Calvinism did not reject all of Catholic faith at the reformation but actually still retained most of it. This is why New Calvinism and emergent church have no problems with ecumenism with Rome because Calvism is basically Catholic. This is why you Joe want to call the whore of Babylon Jerusalem rather than the Catholic Church, because you (whether you like to admit it or not) are still in cohorts with Rome.
For others reading this, I have written whole articles on this. Please refer to:
Joe, Mick etal
I wrote something a few days ago that maybe you have not read. Please take a look again, because it is appropriate to some of the recent conversations. This is what I wrote:
“You (just like Catholics and Calvinists) base your whole theology on what the church fathers taught. Were these Fathers correct in what they wrote? Shouldn’t your theology be based TOTALLY on what the BIBLE teaches?
The ONLY church fathers I trust are from the FIRST apostles, Peter, Paul, James, Jude and John. However, (even then) it is only what was written by them in the canonical books of the Bible that I trust.
Paul tells us in his letters that he spent much of his time WARNING night and day “with tears flowing” about the wolves about to come into the church to ravage the sheep. Paul said that this would happen shortly after his departure and also said that it was already starting to happen. Therefore, HOW can you trust the writings of the church fathers in the second century onwards? They are probably the wolves that Paul was referring to.
The teaching of a pretrib rapture is OBVIOUS to anybody who reads the Bible ALONE without being influenced by extra biblical writings or preconceived teachings from those with ulterior motives.
Also, please STOP using false worthless arguments like the errant linking of Margaret McDonald to debunk pretrib. It SURELY does not matter. If the Bible teaches a doctrine clearly then those other things should not come into the argument. Let us STOP using foolish and silly “straw man” or similar arguments to disprove what the Bible ACTUALLY teaches. Let us STICK to discussing the Bible ALONE.”
>> I have found more sincere love in more Catholics
Of course your have, because are you so close to being a Catholic, I dunno why you just don’t convert. Your doctrine resonates with theirs.
>> When the folk whom you are telling that they are safe from tribulation and will be in heaven for seven years, realize that they are going through that time of great tribulation and that you have lied to them…some even taking the mark of the beast and loosing salvation …their blood will be on your hands and God will hold you accountable…
Oh my goodness, LOL is all I have to say in reply to your comment. We get blamed for people taking the mark of the beast during the coming tribulation? How so?? The Bible says otherwise. What else will you blame us for? I can only imagine.
The ‘Jesus’ you speak about is not the Jesus from the bible, but another Jesus. You are antisemetic in every way that you think. You have a gripe against the Jewish people. You call God’s Holy city Jerusalem the Whore of Babylon instead of Rome and the Vatican City. You have turned Christians who have concern for Jews (as the bible commands) into something sick and evil.
Please do not comment again, your comments have been filled with nothing but disdain for everyone of us and I’m tired of reading them.
I have never read anything by Tim LayHaye or his friends.
When I read Luke 17:34-36 I read it from the bible and not Tim Layhaye’s version. If you have a chain reference bible you will notice that 1 Thess 4:17 is connected to
Luke 17:34-36 “I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.” (Matt 24:40-41; 1Thess 4:17)
1Thess 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
If one is taken, surely it’s common sense that the other isssssssss….drum rollsssssss….left behind.
>> To take an exhaustive approach, spending hours and days digging deeply for 25 years into the true meaning of words…..can be used to identify two different words, such as “forgive” and “left.”
Righttt…. 25 years eh? And you, out of a gazillion people came up with a NEW meaning from a couple of thousand of years worth of orthodox understanding. Even the KJV 1611 is wrong according to you. My goodness, well, I read the bible (guided by the Holy Spirit) and in 5 minutes I figured out that you are talking nonsense.
Acts 3:21 says that Jesus MUST stay in heaven (He is now at the Father’s right hand)until the times of restitution (restoring) of all things. Acts 2:34-35 says the same thing, that Jesus can’t leave heaven until He makes His foes His footstool (that is, when He comes in wrath to take vengeance on His enemies). And II Thess. 1:7-8 says that the church gets its “rest” WHEN God’s vengeance destroys the wicked. If the wicked were destroyed before or during the trib, who would be left alive to serve the Antichrist? (Even the Antichrist isn’t destroyed until the trib’s END!)If the rapture happens before the trib, we would be getting that “rest” several years before He destroys the wicked – but it says our “rest” happens WHEN the wicked are destroyed, right? Would love to get some serious reactions to all this – and please don’t rush to see what your favorite Dr. So and So has written on this, okay? Please discuss just the Word. Thanks, and God bless.
Here is your serious reaction.
>> Acts 3:21 says that Jesus MUST stay in heaven (He is now at the Father’s right hand)until the times of restitution (restoring) of all things
>> Acts 2:34-35 says the same thing, that Jesus can’t leave heaven until He makes His foes His footstool (that is, when He comes in wrath to take vengeance on His enemies).
Again, you misinterpret ‘right hand’ as being Jesus is stuck to God’s right hand side and can’t leave. This verse is saying that Jesus says to David that he can be His right hand man until such time he makes his enemies his footstool.
>> And II Thess. 1:7-8 says that the church gets its “rest” WHEN God’s vengeance destroys the wicked. If the wicked were destroyed before or during the trib, who would be left alive to serve the Antichrist? (Even the Antichrist isn’t destroyed until the trib’s END!)
II Thess. 1:7-8
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 1Thess 4:16;
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Pet 3:7; Rom 2:8;
Where does it say church? Oh boy… shall I explain?
When Jesus Christ comes in judgment, a great distinction will be made between those who knew and loved the Savior and those who, refusing to believe the gospel, persisted in their sins and wickedness in utter indifference to the God who created them. Those who have persecuted the church and are still alive will receive retribution at that second coming (those who have already died will be judged at the last great assize). But Christ will take care of His persecuted people when He descends “to recompense tribulation.” Paul told the Thessalonians that God would recompense rest to those the wicked have sought to injure (1:7). “When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,” He will repay trouble and anguish to those who deserve His wrath, but He will reward all who are His own with rest, joy, and comfort.
Second Thessalonians 1:7-8 refers not to the coming of the Lord for His own (as in 1 Thessalonians 4) but to the day of the Lord (as in 1 Thessalonians 5). Revelation 1:7 also refers to the day of the Lord when it says, “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.” On that day He will come as Judge to destroy those who have spurned His grace. This second coming will usher in that glorious era when the Lord Jesus will reign in righteousness over the whole earth.
On the day of the Lord, He will be revealed “in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel” (2 Thessalonians 1:8). Here Paul referred to two classes of people. In the first class are those who “know not God”; these are the heathen who have lived in ignorance of the gospel and in definite rebellion against their Creator. In the second class are those who “obey not the gospel”; that is, they have heard the truth, but have rejected it.
>> If the rapture happens before the trib, we would be getting that “rest” several years before He destroys the wicked – but it says our “rest” happens WHEN the wicked are destroyed, right?
Wrong, you don’t read properly.
>> Dr. So and So has written on this, okay? Please discuss just the Word.
A little born again girl has replied to you ok guided by the Holy Spirit with no degree. Please just discuss the Word, ok?
You wrote that you believe that believers will be caught up in the air to meet Jesus and then escort Him to the Earth. There are so many problems with that theory based upon many scripture passages. I could write a book on explaining why your theory could not stand the test of Scripture. However, this media is no place to write a book. I can only leave brief comments.
Let me simply ask you a question. Where is the Father’s House?
Jesus said “in my Father’s House are many rooms (or mansions). I go to prepare a place for you”. Where??? He then said “I will return to take you there”. Again I ask, WHERE?
Did He ever refer to Earth as a place He is preparing? How can it refer to Earth because the wrath of God virtually destroys the Earth. The reformation of earth comes AFTER the Tribulation, so HOW can Jesus be in the middle of preparing a place on Earth, before He returns?
Joe, are you aware of the original wedding that Jesus attended to at Cana and how each part of a Jewish wedding represents the first and second coming of the groom and the sudden “taking” (rapture) of the bride (BEFORE the second coming) to the father’s house followed by 7 days (= 7 years) of celebrations before the bride returns with the groom. You see evidence of that in the OT with Isaac and Rebecca and with Jacob serving 7 years TWICE.
Although I do not base my pretrib theology on the Jewish wedding, it DOES explain John 14 extremely well. My theology about pretrib came FIRMLY from 30 plus years of studying the SCRIPTURES ALONE without any outside influence. I have only recently learnt about the Jewish wedding and how Jesus was referring to it in John 14. This DID NOT influence me because I was already almost 100% certain of the pretrib rapture. However, it DOES reinforce it to me.
What Joe and Alf and others fail to look at is this thing called typology..
n. pl. ty·pol·o·gies
1. The study or systematic classification of types that have characteristics or traits in common.
2. A theory or doctrine of types, as in scriptural studies.
There are so many stories in the bible that have similar traits like the one John explained above regarding the wedding in Cana where God shows us a story of past and future events to happen.
If you ignore typology, you miss out on so much.
[EDITED by DTW – John Chingford previously wrote asking Joe for an apology to Myfanwy. He wrote asking for that apology BEFORE Joe’s apology was published. However, John’s request got published AFTER Joe’s apology was given, which makes the sequence of comments look strange. Therefore, John has asked me to explain this and also say that he now respects the humility shown by Joe in giving that apology.] You can find the original comment by John more quickly by clicking on: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/10/02/not-wrath-but-rapture-will-the-church-participate-in-the-great-tribulation/#comment-224759%5D
Thank you for your apology, I accept it, and I am grateful that you admitted to calling me that name. I understand your frustration, because that is how I feel about what you teach. You said, quote ‘Once again, Ms Brown, please accept my apology. I should not let people getting in my face with false accusations make me lose my composure. I did and I’m sorry. I’m not perfect, I’m just saved!’
>> Joe, I was not making false accusations at you, what you teach is unbiblical and there is plenty of information on this site alone, to prove you are wrong.
I truly believe that the Lord has always brought people into my life for a reason.. whether it has been a positive or a negative experience. I believe the LORD has a purpose and a plan for everything, and I trust that He will open your eyes to the truth Joe. I do believe you are sincere, but deceived. I was deceived for many years, and all I can say is that finding the truth actually did set me free, just as the Bible says it will free you.
I have no hate in my heart toward anyone, but I do hate the devil’s lies and his cunningness. I see nothing but lies and deceit in Catholicism, so that is what I hate, the pagan religion of Catholicism.
I do not hate Alf Hutchison either, I hate the spirit behind what he teaches. The reason we have crossed swords on our social site, is that I have not been able to watch idly while he posts all these teachings that I know are contrary to God’s word. There are many unsaved and vulnerable people on these sort of sites, and I have felt compelled to post the truth. However, I now only visit this site for short periods and I just chat to friends, as the arguments became nasty and upset people on the site. Alf called me a bigot, he seems to think that I have no idea on anything Biblical, well, only the Lord truly knows my heart and He has given me wisdom in certain things. I do not need to have a ministry or church membership to enable me to understand the Bible. I do not need to have written books or been a speaker of note to know that satan is a liar, and that he is twisting what the Bible says about our Blessed Hope.
Greetings in Jesus name to all my brothers and sisters on DTW.
Glad to see that Mr. Ortiz has responded to the requests and apologized to Myfanwy. Thank you sir.
Sadly, Mr. Hutchison still revels in his ignorance and pride.
It is amazing to me that this whole scenario started with a biblical exposition by a humble man of God who spent I would guess 50 years diligently studying the Word of God. It was not about Scofield, McDonald or LaHaye but they are always brought up.
Ironside credits no one but the Holy Spirit. He wasn’t about building a following or selling books. He was an intinerant preacher for most of his life and worked among small churches and stayed in homes. Read his biography and I think you will find it inspiring and refreshing. Read his commentaries and test them by the Word of God and the witness of the Holy Spirit.
There are others who have faded into obscurity amidst the culture that has developed into a “star-status” perversion of Christianity that has produced a generation of star-struck professing Christians. Bigger is better. Sensation sells! Discernment falls in the streets!
I would challenge anyone with an opposing view to examine Mr. Ironside’s expository comments, both here and those you can find online as many of them are public domain. Can you put aside aside your own conclusions for a moment? Seek the leading of the Holy Spirit honestly in your prayer closet. You may think you have already done this, but is it possible that you could be wrong and are misleading others as Mr. Hutchison has accused this blog of doing?
I would like to see some serious discussion based on Dr. Ironside’s remarks rather than a knee-jerk reaction to a headline.
Read some of the man’s commentaries and test them – he would be the first NOT to lift up himself as an “expert” and was definitely not a self-promoter. When I first discovered his works it was like a breath of fresh air, and I have been blessed by the gift of explaining the Scriptures that the Lord gave him.
Scofield, McDonald, Lahaye, and the “early church fathers” have no place in this discussion. It is about rightly dividing the Word and defending what the Apostle Paul and others taught. Let’s get rid of the distractions and have an honest and civil discussion of the Word.
And yes, Kathy, it IS important! Eschatology is NOT a secondary doctrine for born-again believers. It is VERY relevant to the times in which we live. Too many believers have been listening to the wrong voices!
Thanks, Deborah, for your response. But I can’t believe that the “day of the Lord” is the same thing as the “great tribulation,” if that is what you are saying. Even Scofield says that several things have to happen before that “day” can even begin – including ths “sun/moon darkening” which Jesus said is after the trib. (The darkening is mentioned in Joel as well as Matthew and other places.) To me, the real shock was finding out about the background and character of the pretrib leaders from Darby on down to present-day leaders. Anyone can Google phrases like “pretrib rapture dishonesty” (including massive plagiarism which is STEALING), “evangelical scandals,” etc. etc. I know we should focus on the Word, but the Word itself (like I Tim. 3) demands that Bible teachers have certain characteristics or qualifications – and these are MANDATORY and not optional! (For example, anyone can weigh Scofield’s qualifications by just Googling “historical facts about C. I. Scofield” which include his being in jail for forgery after he stole his mother-in-law’s life savings!) Anyway, Lord bless you all. (No one is perfect, especially me!)
And I failed to mention, Deborah, that Paul in I Cor. 15 ties the rapture (“changed”) to vs. 54 which all agree is Israel’s (posttrib) resurrection when death is “swallowed” up; does anyone believe that trib death will be ended before or during the trib? Of course not. And I Thess. 5 ties the “times and seasons” of what was discussed in the previous chapter (the rapture) with when the Lord gives “sudden destruction” of the wicked. This tying together is also in Acts 2 and 3, as we’ve noted, and in II Thess. 1, as we’ve seen. BTW, followers of Judaism believe in only TWO stages of a Hebrew marriage (see Wikipedia etc.) so I think that “many stages” simply aren’t supported by either the Word or by Jews themselves. Just my two cents.
>> But I can’t believe that the “day of the Lord” is the same thing as the “great tribulation,” if that is what you are saying.
Nope that is not what I am saying. I do believe that pre-tribulationists should re-examine their view of the day of the Lord, that ‘the day of the Lord’ does not include the tribulation. Because this is what I believe. The day of the Lord is just that, the day Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation. And yes you are right lotsa things have to happen before Jesus returns.
I’ve never read Scofield, or any of these other people. As I said above I studied the bible alone and I found out about the rapture without reading any other literature.
Now, your reasoning in the background of these people who preach the rapture as being dodgy, makes sense, and I can understand your point of view, yet I can tell you that the background of those that preach anti-rapture is just as dodgy, possibly worse (roots in Roman Catholicism whether they like it or not). It’s like the pot calling the kettle black. Satan is having a field day with this game he is playing trying to confuse everyone.
I have no qualifications in anything biblical, except the fact that I can read, and they say that if you can read you gotta future lol ;P And if you have the Holy Spirit you have a bright future!
Oh sigh… what? *shakes her head* I dunno what you are speaking about. You’ve given me a headache, no really 😛
Please be more specific in your comments
…I’m off to sleep now.
Please make no further comment until you first read this link http://www.his-forever.com/jewish_weddings_rapture.htm which FULLY explains the stages of a Jewish wedding. Surely you know that wikipaedia can be written by anybody giving their opinions. Of course there is a lot of good stuff there and mostly it is accurate but CAN BE biassed. I have found a number of inaccuracies there. Regarding whatis said at wikipaedia regarding only 2 stages. That person who wrote it is mistaken. Have you spoken to orthodox Jewish rabbis about this? You appear to be making sweeping statements without properly investigating.
These are the actual stages (If you don’t believe me please check it out):
Shiddukhin: Ketubah: Mohar: Mikveh: Eyrusin: Matan: Nissuin 7 stages.
For a summary of those 7 stages please read it on this link:
If you scroll down to the heading “The Drinking Of The Final Cup” and then look down a number of paragraphs until you get to another heading in blue entitled “the Jewish wedding ceremony and how it relates the Bride of Christ to her bridegroom, Christ Jesus, the Lord.”
I moved your other comment re- what day was Jesus crucified on to here: The General Conversation Section – 11 October, 2012 at 9:46 pm I’m just trying to keep stuff under the right topic.
I have read this excellent article and all of the replies. For me, knowing that there is an imminent Rapture for all truly born again Christians is simply a matter of faith in Jesus Christ and in His Holy Word and His personal PROMISES to His dear Bride that we will not go through the Wrath to come.
Hebrews1:1 ” Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
The reason those who are watching receive a “Crown of Righteousness” is simply because we BELIEVE Jesus Christ and His Word about this matter, and HE counts it as righteousness to us. All of our Christian life is a walk in faith with Him.
How much faith does it require to simply believe our dear Lord and Savior when He has given us His personal Word and promises that the faithful are not going to be here on earth when the wrath of God is poured out on the whole unbelieving world?
If one truly knows God, then they know that He is perfectly JUST, and that He will NOT judge the righteous with the unrighteous! His Word from beginning to end is a testament to His perfect Holy character. If one believes otherwise, then I believe that they have evil, unbelieving hearts, and need desperately to examine their own hearts as to their “faith”.
This time of waiting and watching for His coming to take us to be with Him is a testing of our faith and belief in Him, His Holiness, and in His keeping of His Own Word. It’s called “keeping His patience”, and it has a great reward!!! That’s why it IS important to know what we believe and why we believe it, so that we examine our own consciences, that we truly are in the faith!
It may be the ONLY crown I get (I pray not), but at least I will have that particular one to lay at His precious nail-scarred feet! The naysayers and the trolls of Satan may try to discourage Christians from believing in this Blessed Hope, and even the “ministers of Satan” who preach it but don’t WANT it, only intensify my utter belief and faith in this wonderful “mystery” which Paul gave to the Bride, and which Jesus Christ, Himself, PROMISED to the Philadelphia Church!!
Thank you, Deborah, for this opportunity to state these things. As to those who oppose you and revile you, they are helping you to build up your treasure in Heaven-LOL! Our “enemies” have a way of doing this, and they don’t even know it!
In Christ Jesus, Sherry B.
Awesome comment Sherry!!
Sherry, well said! You have nailed the real heart issue of the Blessed Hope and that it is NOT false doctrine and that it is NOT escapism.
So many, even well-meaning discerners have abandoned this precious doctrine because it has been taught by those who have been exposed as false teachers in one way or another. What better way for Satan to delude! If one will but do research one will find that there are those who CAN be trusted, who teach this doctrine that we should treasure with all our hearts!
I fear that those who are dedicated to exposing false teachers will deeply regret their rejection of this doctrine. It is not my place to judge them, but they are doing the Body of Christ a disservice.
Thank you again for chiming in – don’t be a stranger!!
It is so sad to see so many Christians ‘caught up’ in these unbiblical speculations about ‘the rapture’ and second coming of Christ. There will be no physical second coming of Christ on this earth. He will not descend from His throne to return to earth. We will not be flying into the air or miraculously disappear. Instead we will meet and see Him with opened, renewed Spiritual eyes as He is now: seated at the right hand of God. This is His true coming, His ‘parousia’. It is the Spiritual truth that all true believers of all ages have witnessed within their own lives. While so many people waste their lives, foolishly fighting amongst themselves about a pre-, mid- or post-trib… they sadly are going to miss the true ‘snatching up’ which is in Spirit and in Truth. The Bible has warned us about this deception beforehand. But many just don’t have an ear to hear.
>> Instead we will meet and see Him with opened, renewed Spiritual eyes as He is now: seated at the right hand of God.
No, Joannis, what you describe is the opening of the third eye by Satan for illumination and enlightenment and it is 100% occult.
>> The Bible has warned us about this deception beforehand. But many just don’t have an ear to hear.
I love the way you occultists use the bible now to try back up your doctrine of demons as being truth. You twist God’s Word to make it your own. Get your own ‘bible’ why don’t you, leave ours alone.
Yes, Joannis, the Bible warns us about people like you! You are the one who does not have ears to hear the truth.
The Rapture is a precious doctrine and it is one that is being attacked as the time of the end approaches. I am willing to bet $$$ to donuts that you didn’t even read the article that started this thread. And you certainly didn’t get your cockamamy theory from the Bible.
Joannis…I am interested to know where you get your beliefs/theories from? They are certainly not Biblical..
Deb, I hope you don’t mind these comments. I won’t be offended if you decide not to allow them.
Doing some research some time ago I came across Ortiz’s blog. One particular article stood out. It was where he claimed that MacPherson had found new evidence via a handwritten note that MacDonald wrote about a pretrib rapture. It was six lines consisting of about four words each that didn’t fit together because they were edited out of a larger existing document. It is the same document where posttibulationist Macdonald tells us that the trial of the church is through Anti-Christ. In other words Ortiz and MacPherson tried to deceive their audiences.
And I see that Mick Rynning has paid you a visit.
You’ve tried to correct pretribbers on another blog. You walked away without responding to questions about the prewrath rapture system. Ironically, a couple of us pretribbers fired off some questions to Sheila Sternberg’s prewrath site (she invites pretribbers to respond to her criticisms) and we’ve yet to hear from her. That was well over two years ago! My advice to you is to get your own eschatology right before attempting to correct others.
I mentioned earlier that if the Rapture is not true then the Bible contradicts itself. I gave the Scriptures above to prove it. That’s all we need to know regarding the End Times–the Scriptures.
All the claims that the Rapture came from Darby, McDonald &c., have been proven to be false.
Such arguments have been refuted over and over. So, it must be due to ignorance of those refutations that people still bring them up. Even so, it is strange that people still bring them up when they plainly conflict with Scripture.
And on the matter of the Rapture or any other doctrine, the Scriptures are definitive.
Anyone who does not know that is like those Sadducees to whom Jesus said, “Ye do ERR not knowing SCRIPTURES nor the power of God” [Matt:22:29].
That people use ad hominem arguments against a person is serious enough. But to do so against the Word of God is much more serious. And it does not matter if that is done through deceit or of being deceived [2 Tim 3:13 & 1 Tim 2:14].
Being deceived therefore is not an excuse. That last Scripture tells us that “Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”
So why should that be? Here is why: She was deceived because she believed the devil (Adam did not) and she seduced Adam to go her way.
So let’s not kid ourselves that to be deceived is not so bad as actually deceiving. It is!
Deceived people are deceived because they are listening to the devil or to those who carry out his dirty work. Generally, you have to be deceived in order to deceive. Of course, like Adam you can deliberately follow a deceiver and some deceivers really do know what they are doing, at least they do when they start off.
For example, when Alf Hutchinson claims that he has met more sincere Catholics who have more love &c. Where does his definition of love come from? The Scriptures? No. He ought to read 1 Cor 13 to get the real definition. And it is speaking of a certain kind of love–Agape, God’s love in us, not human love.
(I was a Catholic and knowing the history and dogmas of that church I can state emphatically that if you want a sincere hatred of other human beings study the Crusades, the Inquistion, the Vatican’s WWII pro-Nazi stance, the Catholic Ustazi in Croatia, their interference in this world’s politics–and we are not to be part of this world–and you will see that the Papacy stands head and shoulders above any other religious group in it’s deceitful persecution of others. Islam is straightforward in its treatment of infidels and does not try to hide it–though the media of the West does–but the Catholic church has always worked by subterfuge as secular history attests. Catholic historians themselves such as Malachi Martin And John Cornwell tell us that is so. My statement is not an attack on Catholics. I love my Catholic friends and relations. I want them saved.)
There is such a thing as what fallen humanity calls love. It is not the same thing as what the Bible calls love. Mr Hutchinson is going against Scripture when he thinks he can choose to decide what he thinks is love [Prov 3:5].
A Catholic friend of mine shocked my wife by telling her he thought it would be a good thing if I was burned at the stake as he would rather that happend to me as a heretic than me burning forever in hell. And he understood that to be loving. I was not offended because I understood his paradigm.
That seeming digression is to illustrate my point regarding deceit and being deceived. And it brings me back to the deceit of people–or deceived people–standing against the Bible’s statements on the Rapture:
As I showed earlier on this section of DTW in a group of Scriptures comparing those for the Rapture, where Christ comes FOR His saints, and those for the return of Christ at Armageddon WITH His saints that, if these are the same thing, then the Bible must contradict itself.
Well, here’s another Scripture to “prove” that Christ contradicted Himself if they are one and the same thing: Matthew 24:9-21 and Matt 24:37-42.
So which is it? Is it a time [vs 37-42] when people are eating drinking and marrying and working (one is in the field (and one is taken!) and woman are grinding in the mill (and one is taken!), doing all the usual things? Or is it the time [vs 9-21] when the Abomination of Desolation (showing the Anti-Christ has some time since been revealed) is in the Holy Place and those in Judaea should flee to the mountains? And, as corresponding Scriptures show us, that people are hiding in the caves screaming for the rocks to fall on them and others are wanting to die and not be able to.
Does anyone seriously believe that these are the same times? Those who do will have to agree that Jesus Christ contradicted Himself. Now, He either told the truth and these were two different times or He was talking about the same time. And if He was talking about the same time, and contradicting HImself, how can anyone trust what He has got to say?
What I’d like to know from post-tribbers is, if you are not going to believe straightforward things Jesus is saying how do you know you’re believing any other straightforward things He’s said? And so how do you know you’re not twisting the Scriptures to your own destruction [2 Pet 3:16]? And why should anyone else believe what you’ve got to say on other Scriptural matters?
If a person believes two contradicting things then they have cognitive dissonance. That is not an ad hominem statement, it is a mere matter of fact.
I am willing to believe that people who believe conflicting things in the Bible have cognitive dissonance. I have no problem with that. What I am not willing to believe is that Jesus Christ has cognitive dissonance! So people who attack Scripture when they are not aware they are doing so–and are therefore deceived–had best beware of what they are saying of Jesus Christ.
A few years back when I didn’t know much about the Rapture/ anti-Rapture debate, I read something on a Cutting Edge Ministries site (very flaky, but with some newsworthy statements). The article caught my attention:
A man called Bill Lambert (who attended a New Age meeting where insiders awaiting the appearance of Maitreya [Anti-Christ] gathered) mentioned something interesting that the speaker told the group. It was regarding what this group’s leaders had been informed by their “spirit guides” (demons).
He told them that just prior to the Maitreya’s appearance many people will elect to suddenly disappear from the face of the earth to go to another dimension.
Bill Lambert asked the speaker if this was to be a mass suicide as with the Jones cult, or a mass killing. The lecturer told him that it was not to be either but that the “spirit guides” hadn’t given details. The speaker said that because these masses were not ready and/or could never accept the great light of the Maitreya, and would therefore be a source of conflict in this time of great peace, they of themselves would “elect” to leave this planet.
So it looks as if Satan through Maitreya is preparing his disciples for the Rapture. It’s ironical that New Agers are preparing for it and “Christians” are opposing it.
There is only one thing that can and will unite Arabs to accept a restored temple (as prophesied in Scripture) and both Arabs and Jews to accept the Anti-Christ.
When millions of Christians disappear there will be such terror on the face of the earth that this world will be reeling in shock. And when the Anti-Christ appears on the scene with the answer, and can “prove” that he’s had the answer prior to this (as the New Agers presently teach, as did the late Benjamin Creme), people will be ready to worship him as a god, indeed as God!
Christians need to wake up.
Nelson Mandela claimed that Maitreya appeard to him in his prison cell and Desmond Tutu accepts that.
An Anglican cleric is a believer in Maitreya! (He is also Replacement “Theologian” [heretic] and a supporter of Arab terror against Israel.) And Gorbachev too claims Maitreya appeared to him. That’s why these people all preach “peace, peace when there is no peace.” That’s why there was not bloodshed in South Africa with the fall of Apartheid. (A good thing in itself.) But it’s why the world’s leaders are hailing these men as men of peace. The Bible warns that Anti-Christ will destroy many by peace [Dan 8:25].
I don’t fear for people who are unsure about the Rapture who haven’t closed their minds on this truth. I can understand why people with genuine doubts struggle with it, considering few churches teach it and many are hostile against it. (They need not struggle withit if they stick with the Scriptures and pray to God to let them see the truth in His Word without prejudice; and to deliver them from evil and to recognize evil for what it is.)
The people I fear for are those who deny the Rapture and twist Scripture and use lies and deceit to do so.
God hardened Pharoah’s heart to go the way that was really in his heart to go. God is going to do the same again right after the Rapture [2 Thess 2:11; see also Isaiah 66:4] to let those go in the way they want to.
These will not be the Tribulation saints. Tribulation saints will be in God’s Kingdom, but through martyrdom. They will be converted in those times, unlike those who are presently following end times apostasy.
We have to choose wisely.
Well said, Martin. People who pin pretribulationism on Maggie Macdonald almost never provide factual data. Frankly, whenever I see this it reveals to me something about the person making that claim.
Mick Rynning, show me your proof if you think Darby got “his lies from hell” from Macdonald. She wrote: “Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived – This is the fiery trial which is to try us…The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept.”
Quoting Mick Rynning: “I want to share a post with you that I made on a blog that was exposing Zionism, i.e., political Israel who uses religion to achieve its ends, as opposed to spiritual Israel. I hope this clarifies for you not only my position on Israel clearly not being anti-Semitic; but also being what God says in the Bible.”
Mick, you might want to avail yourself of Barry Horner’s “Future Israel”, David Larsen’s “Jews, Gentiles & the Church”, Paul Wilkinson’s “For Zion’s Sake” or Mike Vlach’s “Has the Church Replaced Israel?” for a refutation of these typical canards against “Zionism”. Here are some resources from Mike’s website:
You ask “Of course this begs the question: Why then support Israel as a nation, i.e., ethnic Israel?” Here are some thoughts: Christians should support Israel because they didn’t have a nation for nearly 2,000 years and repeatedly suffered persecution and near extermination; because it’s still under threat of extermination by its neighbors; because the media and some self-professing Christian activists are falsely accusing Israel of perpetrating human rights violations (which is not to say that they’re perfect) while ignoring the atrocities committed by Israel’s surrounding nations.
Here’s something else “God says in the Bible”, Mick. Read Gen 27:29; Jer 31:31-37 and Rom 11:28-29. And especially note: For thus says the LORD of hosts, After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye. Zec 2:8
BTW, if you’re going to go off on a tirade against “Scoefield” you may want to at least spell his name correctly. Scofield was a sinner who needed to repent (and did) – just like you and me. As for his “own pre-trib version of the Bible”, you’re no doubt aware that Charles Cooper is asking for money to publish “his own version” of the prewrath Bible. Speaking of money, Dr Coop is also selling pamphlets allegedly refuting the pretrib reliance on Rev 3:10. You may be interested to know that he agrees that Rev 3:10 is a rapture passage. He just thinks that it supports prewrath although he doesn’t qualify his reasoning. Alan Kurschner agrees as well…also without providing a good reason. You know that Kursch is selling prewrath charts and has a book coming up. I guess it’s OK for them to make a dollar out of eschatology but not those “pre-trib liars”.
You seem to be operating under the erroneous idea that, because you think one or two pretrib writers have engaged in suspect activities; the pretrib teaching is a lie. I can give you a long list of pretrib scholars who are better men than I could ever wish to be and who defend the system biblically. Also, you call dispensationalism a “doctrine of demons” without qualifying your accusation. You may want to be a little more specific next time and back up your allegations.
The Margaret MacDonald issue is neither here, nor there, however, there is ‘no smoke without fire’, as they say. Without doubt there MAY be something in it, but, this MacDonald distraction is just a side show, for want of a better expression.
The bible clearly teaches that a rapture will happen, some time in the future, the problem would seem to be it’s timing, among us pre millennial believers.
Now I believe that the bible clearly teaches a post tribulational coming; Matthew 29:24-31. This coming is His second advent; ‘Without sin unto salvation’, Hebrews 9.28. Now if plain words mean anything, this IS what I believe; a post tribulational coming. There are those who teach that the ‘coming’ or ‘parousia’ is not the same event as the ‘appearing’ or the ‘epiphaneia’, when upon closer study, they in fact reveal the same event. This is confirmed by Titus 2.13 where the blessed hope (the coming is the same event as His appearing).
Now Darby is the accredited father of Dispensationalism, so-called, and his teaching spread in popularity throughout the western world through C.I.Scofield’s ‘reference bible’ with his famous marginal notes. The problem with ‘marginal notes’ is that they are man’s interpretation. If they are wrong then they will lead you astray. And obviously it doesn’t need me to say that if they are printed in the ‘bible’ then they carry significant weight?
I believe that Israel, and the Church have the same destiny, they cannot be separated, they are saved alone by the blood of the Lamb.
I am NOT a replacement theologian, in fact I am not a theologian. This is not to negate the fact that God has a purpose for the land of Israel, and her remnant in a soon coming day.
Now I am not so naive as to believe, what I have just said will convict you of what I believe to be the truth. But what I will say is,this, I cannot find any where in the pages of Holy Writ, a doctrine that teaches Jesus Christ will come before the great tribulation. I understand, through reading posts on this site and others, that there exists difficulties which we try to reconcile and reason with our fallen human minds. This we cannot do.
Hath God said?
Colin, the Macdonald issue isn’t “neither here, nor there”- it’s very relevant. She was an Irvingite who believed the world was already in the great tribulation. When challenged with the contents of her vision, polemicists will often argue that she may have been a partial rapturist. Yet she clearly held to a posttribulational view. As for there being “no smoke without fire” – the reason there’s smoke is because it is created by those (like MacPherson & those who parrot him) who vilify Darby in an attempt to refute pretribulationism via ad hominem.
As a former posttribulationist I’m familiar with your points. I hesitate to be dogmatic re pretrib, but I think it has the least problems. And, like you, I know nothing I say will change your view. Having said that…
You’re no doubt aware that Matt 24:31 has its counterpart in OT promises of Israel’s final gathering back into the land (Deut 30:4; Isa 11:12, 27:12-13 etc). Isaiah 61:1-2 looks like a single-phase fulfillment until you read Luke 4:17-21. Likewise, using Heb 9:28 as a proof text doesn’t convince. You have to compare verses like Rev 3:10 & 1 Thess 5:9 and the fact that saints are raised at Rev 20:4 after the 7th trumpet and after Rev 19:11. Also a single-phase Second Advent that isn’t distinguished by a prior rapture isn’t compelling in light of Hos 5:15; Matt 23:37-39 & 1Thess 4:16-17. If there’s only ONE second coming that everyone sees – that’s also contingent on national Israel’s repentance – then why isn’t Israel also raptured? If there’s only one second coming which is the so-called day of the Lord – then how can we get around the inconsistency of comparing Matt 24:37-39 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 with Matt 24:21-22 and Rev 6:8? I never could as a posttribber.
You say: “I believe that Israel, and the Church have the same destiny, they cannot be separated, they are saved alone by the blood of the Lamb.”
Israel & the church have the same means of salvation (see Matt 23:37-39; Acts 4:12 etc). There’s only one way to salvation and that’s what good (normative) dispie scholars teach. However, that doesn’t mean that Israel doesn’t have a unique role to play in the millennium (Zec 8:23 etc). For a clarification of these matters I recommend Alva McClain’s “The Greatness of the Kingdom” and George N H Peters’ “The Theocratic Kingdom”. Peters (1825-1909) was a Lutheran pastor (not officially a dispensationalist) who understood that the church saints were to be translated before the Second Advent and that Israel had a unique role to fulfill in the millennium. By his own admission, he arrived at those views through a study of Scripture – not John Darby – as his prodigious works prove.
Thank you for your reply.
Concerning the Margaret MacDonald involvement, affair,or whatever, I was trying to communicate across the airwaves that it is an irrelevant issue, as regards biblical doctrine, therefore a smokescreen. I think it most unwise for any post tribulation believer to embark on that route. I have read some of McPherson’s material, and I certainly don’t approve of his style(!) From memory, I think he uses an exclamation mark after every sentence, and he employs a mocking tone to his writings.
Also I would say that many throughout the ages, true God fearing men, have had differing eschatological views down through the centuries. Is it not somewhat easier 64 years after Israel became a nation, once more (in unbelief), with the greater light that we have today, to see things far more clearly?
It is interesting, because pre-tribulation believers (and for that matter, post trib as well) attribute Darby as the source of this ‘New teaching’: That pre tribulationists will quote, or indeed mis quote, some of the works of the old divines, in order to try and solidify their case.
Darby the pre-eminent leader of the Brethren movement, and his fellow elder, a Mr B.W.Newton both rejected Irving’s teachings.
Mr Newton in popular literature has somewhat remained under the radar, the split in this new movement resulted in two separate groups; the open and the exclusive brethren; Darby being exclusive, and Newton, open; all very, very sad.
Darby as we know, was an extremely well travelled man and his teachings spread far and wide (even to Lausanne, and America), via a Mr C.I.Scofield and Dallas Theological Seminary. Newton however rejected this ‘new’ teaching, and kept to the ‘old paths’. Both men were pre-millennial believers, Darby obviously pre trib, and Newton post trib.
I am sorry that this is turning into a history lesson, please forgive me!
People on this website would do well to remember that Darby did indeed defend the doctrines of Calvinism, aka the doctrines of grace.
You certainly quote many scriptures! To cut to the chase;
I must protest, if I may use that word, your employment of Luke 4.17-21, I cannot see the comparison. These particular verses in the Lukan gospel are surely describing the near two thousand year age between the two advents? They cannot be employed to teach a two phase second coming?! Revelation 3.10 teaches that God will keep believers from ‘the hour of trial’ not, take them from it. Likewise 1 Thessalonians 5.9 tells us that believers will obtain salvation not wrath, Paul is telling the Thessalonian believers that they will not face God’s eschatological wrath. The Day of the Lord, 1 Thessalonians 5.2, at it’s core is a Day of wrath ( Zephaniah 1.15 ). This passage is teaching believers are to obtain salvation.
It is very interesting that you say you ‘used to be’ a post tribber. I would humbly ask you; is it possible that this is the same logic as people who claim they ‘used to be Christians’?
I used to be pre trib, not because I could understand it’s doctrine, but because it appealed to me: I certainly don’t want to be persecuted and suffer under the great tribulation! How much longer this ‘comfortable’ western world will remain, I know not, but what I do know is that many in the Church age, the Church Martyrs, were beaten,tortured and burnt at the stake because of their faith, once delivered to the saints; Jude 1.3.
As we all know, the Church has suffered sore trials and persecutions through the ages, but not the Great Tribulation, that is yet to come.
The Lord Jesus Christ said He will come after the tribulation; Matthew 24. 29-30.
He admonished His Church to ‘make disciples of all nations..even unto the end of the age’; Matthew 28. 19-20, not until seven years before the end. This commandment was given to the Church, not unbelieving Jews.
Colin, right off the bat, let me say that I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with what’s that’s been said on Deb’s site re Calvinism etc.
You said: “It is very interesting that you say you ‘used to be’ a post tribber. I would humbly ask you; is it possible that this is the same logic as people who claim they ‘used to be Christians’? I used to be pre trib, not because I could understand it’s doctrine, but because it appealed to me: I certainly don’t want to be persecuted and suffer under the great tribulation!”
I’m not sure what you’re driving at by your question as to why I changed my posttrib stance in the same breath as “people who claim they ‘used to be Christians”. Can you clarify? For the record I fully expected that if Christ came during my time that I would suffer the “tribulation”. My change had nothing to do with your original reason for being pretrib. You shouldn’t assume your personal reasons apply to others or judge other people’s motives based on your own experience. I changed because that’s what I see in Scripture. Yes, I quote a lot of scripture. Also please note that pretribbers should (and do) expect tribulation in this life. The issue is God’s wrath and when it occurs.
Thanks for the history lesson but all that material regarding Darby, Newton, and Scofield etc is available in Paul Wilkinson’s doctrinal dissertation For Zion’s Sake. I highly recommend it. I mentioned George N H Peters (a partial rapturist) who arrived at his conclusions via his own study of Scripture (see Propostitoin 130 Volume 2 page 314 The Theocratic Kingdom. One of the reasons scholars began to see Israel and the church differently was because they began to adopt a more literal hermeneutic, rather than the one inherited through the RCC and Augustine. Ryle disagreed with his amillennial Anglican church and Peters disagreed with his postmillennial Lutheran colleagues. Darby had nothing to do with that.
The point of Isaiah 61 and Luke 4 was that a casual reading of the former would lead someone to believe that the full content would be fulfilled in one advent but such was not the case. The term “the Second Coming” is generally and rightly attributed to that event in Rev 19. That doesn’t preclude a “coming” for the church and using proof text verses doesn’t solve the posttrib problem to my mind. Matt 24:36-39 informs us of an unknown coming where the world is living in a “business as usual” manner. And 1 Thess 5:2-3 tells us that the day of the Lord comes as they are saying “Peace and Safety”. In other words, when it happens it will take the world by surprise. Yet we’re informed by our prewrath and postie friends that at Rev 6:17 the wrath of God is still future and unbelievers know that it’s going to happen. Peace is taken away at the 2nd seal and the second half of Daniel’s 70th week is the worst time there ever was or ever will be (Matt 24:21-22). How can people be living in “peace and safety” in that time and how can the wrath of God occur after the worst period there ever will be?
Whether or not the day of the Lord is an extended period of time (which I think it is) or a period of time at the end of the 70th week (as pretribber Richard Mayhue believes) there is solid evidence that God’s wrath occurs throughout the 70th week. God’s wrath isn’t limited to a single period known as the day of the Lord because Zep 1:15. That isn’t what the verse implies. The elements of the 4th seal are instruments of God’s wrath and judgment as attested to by Ezekiel chapter 5 and Ezekiel 14:21. Not to mention the Two Witnesses (Rev 11:3-6).
Contrary to Gundry’s arguments in his 2 books, most Greek scholars now understand Rev 3:10 to mean protection out of. There are other expressions (instead of tereo ek) that John could have used had he meant otherwise. There is no protection within the “hour of testing” otherwise there wouldn’t be any martyrs.
Articles for further thought:
I completely agree with you about pre-trib and like you have also NOT read any of the books/teaching that those who are agianst us would say we are following. Just by simply reading the bible (doesn’t get any better than that!), knowing God’s character, and being led by the Holy Spirit, it is CLEAR, through the Scriptures that the Church is not destined for wrath. I heard once that “Christ does not beat up His bride” and that is true. As to the weird teaching that it’s Satan’s wrath…where in the world did THAT come from, lol! Satans wrath is going on now! He’s leading people astray as that’s all he can do. He is not God, He will never be God, he is not the exact opposite of God. He is a fallen angel, a created being who is doing all he can now because he knows his time is short. The Great Tribulation is, as written in scripture (don’t need any other books when it’s plain as day in there) that it’s the wrath of the Lamb and the Wrath of God. Keep up the good work 🙂
Blessings for the New Year brothers and sisters!!!
Hi Al, I am finally getting back with you! I apologize whole heartily for the delay! I thought since you brought up the same points with Colin as you did me and this tread is more recent I would just comment here.
Al said: “Daphne, Heb 9:28 does not preclude a rapture event and the second coming at Rev 19:11.”
No, Heb 9:28 does not exclude a rapture event neither does it include a rapture event.
Al said: “Prewrathers will point out that that “eagerly awaited” “second time” occurs after the 6th seal (at Rev 7) and posties at the 7th trumpet; yet they still have THE second coming at Rev 19:11. Can you see the problem?”
Actually I don’t see a problem: let me explain after I show you scripture concerning the 6th seal and Rev 19.
Sixth Seal and Rev 19:
Rev 6:14—And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:17—For the great day of his wrath is come: and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 19:11—And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:15—And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Above we have the sixth seal and the second coming connected with the heavens opening/departing and with the wrath. I know that departed and opened are two different words but to depart a scroll is to open or unroll it to see the contents. Thayer’s Lexicon applies the same meanings to departed as it does open: to unseal, to unroll (Strong’s G455: anoigo).
Rev 11:15—And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
Rev 19:15-16—And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Surely this ties the seventh trump to the coming kingdom and rule of our Lord Jesus! The way I see it the sixth seal, the seventh trump and the coming of Jesus are all descriptions of the same event!
Since we are on the subject of the seventh trump let me make this point:
Pre-tribbers say that Paul’s last trump (1 Cr. 15:52) can’t be the same as the seventh trump in Rev 11 because (this is sad sad reasoning!) Paul wrote his book forty years before John wrote his. Todd Strandberg of “Rapture Ready” writes, “How could Paul write about something that had not been revealed yet?”
Todd is not using common sense when he asked the question: “How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?” The coming of the Lord is revealed throughout the Bible and with it the trumpet sounding. What I say is confirmed by Rev. 10:7.
Rev. 10:7—But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound the mystery of God should be finished, AS HE HATH DECLARED TO HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS.
Clearly God didn’t just tell one prophet (John) about the trumpet he told more than one. Notice the word prophet is plural: prophet(s) and those prophets include Paul!
Another point made by the pre-tribbers is that the seventh trump is an angel’s trumpet where Paul’s trumpet is the trump of God.
Rev 8:2—And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Notice the angels stood before God and it was him who gave them their trumpets!
Al said: “Whatever the case, you may want to consider this: Matt 24:37-39 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 inform us that the coming of the son of man and the day of the Lord will occur during a “business as usual” period and when people are experiencing peace and safety.”
I have considered Matt. 24: 37-39 and from what I can tell the wicked are removed (by death) from the face of the earth the SAME DAY the good are saved. The saved: Noah and his family went into the Ark and then the rains begin killing every living being on the earth.
The same thing applies to Lot the DAY Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Lot and his family left the city for safety and then on the SAME DAY it rained down fire and brimstone.
In those times everything was “business as usual” there was so to speak peace and safety and then came the wrath of God!
Al said: “Yet peace is taken away at the 2nd seal and 1/4 of the earth’s population is killed at the 4th. We’re also told in Matt 24:21 that this is the worst time there ever was or ever will be.”
Peace being taken from the world can be seen today in the Middle East i.e. the (radical) Islamist wanting to get rid of us infidels. Every day the (radical) Arabs are killing one another (Libya, Syria, Egypt) and have in the last couple of years picked up the pace in their quest to do away with Christians and guess what their weapon of choice is: the sword! And as far as Death and hell reigning and given power over a ¼ of the earth to kill with sword, hunger, death, and with the beasts of the earth; how many in the last couple of years have already been killed by the (radical) Islamists, random shooters, floods, sickness, tsunamis, earthquakes etc… and after those tsunamis and earthquakes how many have died from hunger and sickness? It has been as of last few years a regular thing for people to be killed by animals (beasts of the earth): lions, stingrays, dogs etc…
The Day of the Lord comes as a thief to those who are not watching. To those who are watching it will not slip up on them.
1 Thess. 5:4—But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
I thought while I was here I would address one more point: the saints come with Jesus when He comes to rule on earth. That is not what Paul says. He says that Jesus will bring the dead in Him with him. In the following verses Paul is talking to the people who will be alive and remain when Jesus comes.
1 Thess. 3:13—To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL IS SAINTS.
1 Thess. 4:14—For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.
Well, that is about all I have in me today Al. I look forward to your reply. And in accordance with the length of time I took getting back to you: Please take all the time you need (–smile!-)
Fantastic Ashely! 🙂
When I was making the comparison between those who ‘used to be Christians and now atheists’ and ‘those who used to be post trib, and now pre trib’, I was perhaps trying to question whether the original view point was ever held with any real conviction? As you well know there are many who claim that they ‘used to be Christians’, I would ask you whether they were ever TRUE Christians to begin with? Did they ever truly believe? Were they ever the ones that the Saviour addressed in John 10.29? Clearly not.
However, you are quite correct to suggest that the dynamics are more complicated than I may be implying. Obviously the rapture question is a very complex issue, but only because of the confusion brought in by the relatively new Dispensational doctrine! Of course I cannot qualify, or pigeon hole you! But I know that the bible clearly teaches that the Lord is NOT going to come before the great tribulation.
As the old divines used to say; ‘If the plain reading makes sense, seek no other sense’.
I would apply this literally to the Saviour’s words in Matthew 24.29-31 when He says that He will ‘come AFTER the tribulation of those days’, and then, He goes on to describe all the portents etc.
As regards persecutions, tribulations etc, yes they have happened in every age, you only have to read Foxes Book of Martyrs and the more recent history of cruel persecutions in the Islamic and non western (comfortable) world, continuing to this very day, and sadly, not getting the media coverage they deserve.
Now, I am not so daft as to say that I can explain the minutiae of every single event that happens in the seals, trumpets and vials as recorded in the Revelation, but I certainly see NO difficulty from the post trib view: There are even now, many calamitous things going on at this very moment which will only increase as we get near the Day of the Lord.
From my own studies of Holy Writ I see NO scriptures that teach an imminent, secret or any moment rapture; this scenario is imported into the Word not from it; eisegesis,not exegesis.
There are so many glaring inconsistencies in pre trib doctrine such as reconciling the trumpets; the trumpet of Revelation 11.15 (seventh & last) being the same one as 1 Corinthians 15.52 (last trump), and 1 Thessalonians 4.16 (the (last) Resurrection trump) though pre trib Dispensationalists will have us believe otherwise. In Matthew 13.30 the tares are gathered first; is that the pre trib rapture? Also certain events have to happen before the Lord’s coming; ‘The falling away comes first, and the man of sin be revealed’ 2 Thessalonians 2.3, Matthew 24.15. The fact that Peter knew that he would live to an old age before his death John 21.18 etc, etc.
In the hour of trial, Revelation 3.10 plainly says that God will ‘keep’ his people, not take them out, just as God protected Noah and family.
Life will continue as normal in relative ‘peace and safety’ right up to the great Day. Things will go on as normal, as they always ever have done (buying & selling marriage etc), people are always saying ‘peace and safety’ after every ceasefire in Israel and other places. This Day, however will not overtake those that are ‘in the light, or day’ 1 Thessalonians 5.4.
Dipensationalism has undergone various refinements since it’s inception, and I believe that if this age were to carry on indefinitely (which it won’t)that it will end up in perfect agreement with historic pre-millennialism!
Dispensationalists HAVE to separate the Church and Israel into two separate entities, in order for their scheme to work. If they were to be honest and admit that the Church was founded by the Saviour, the Blessed One, Jesus Christ our Lord ( Matthew 16.18 and Matthew 18.17 ) instead of by Paul in the NT ( He even said he persecuted the Church!! 1 Corinthians 15.9 ), then, if the disciples asked the question of the Lord’s return in the Olivet Discourse (as the founders of the New Testament Church) then the pre trib rapture theory becomes untenable.
As I have said before, Dispensationalism rips the heart right out of the gospel, it divides Law from grace (hence easy believism), teaches salvation in the OT period by the temple sacrifices, apart from the blood of Christ, separates the Church from Israel, when the NT Scriptures plainly teach we are all one in Christ(This has No impact on National Israel),and of course two separate second comings, or as Sir Robert Anderson would have us believe, many more comings. There is more, which is beyond the scope of my present essay.
According to pre trib teaching, while the darkest night of Israel’s wretched history is taking place, with Antichrist doing his worst, the Church will be celebrating!
The Old Testament prophets knew of no such thing as this, as indeed 1800 years of Church history will testify.
Colin, I had the attitude that if the rapture came before the Second-Advent then well and good, but I was a skeptic. My focus was on the premil-preterist debate. It was only when challenged to study the prewrath system that I began to see the flaws in both posttrib and prewrath. I have several non-pretrib works in my library just to keep me honest.
My previous comments haven’t been responded to. The 4 elements of the 4th seal (and the 42 month ministry of the 2 witnesses) are instruments of God’s wrath. They are specifically called that in several OT passages. That makes God’s wrath present long before the 7th trumpet. Posties claim the second half of the 70th week is Satan’s wrath because of Rev 12:12. But the passage isn’t declaring that God’s wrath isn’t present during and prior. Either give some compelling reasons why there’s no wrath prior to the 7th trumpet or simply say the church endures God’s wrath (not just satanic tribulation) throughout the 70th week.
Quote: “Life will continue as normal in relative ‘peace and safety’ right up to the great Day.”
Really? Not if it’s the coming of Rev 19:11! How do you justify that with a literal reading of the 2nd & 4th seals and the face-value statements of Matt 24:21-22? All this is irreconcilable to me within a single Rev 19 coming. No one will be saying peace and safety at Matt 24:21-22 if we take it as literally the worst time in all history in which God has to intervene else no flesh would be saved. And, again, you’re conflating tribulation with God’s wrath in the 70th week. The Noahic example can’t be used to argue for posttrib because Noah and his family weren’t translated and needed to stay on the earth to repopulate it.
I take Matt 24:29-31 literally too. Jesus is coming again at Rev 19 after the trib. However, the disciples understood v 31 to be fulfillment of several OT promises of the final gathering of Israel into the land (Isa 11:6-12, Isa 11:12, 27:12-13 (note the trumpet), Jer 16:14-15, 23:3-4, 7-8, 31:7-10; Eze 11:14-18, 36:24; Amos 9:14-15; Zep 3:18-20; Zech 10:8-12). But also note that according to Hos 5:15, Zec 13:9 and Matt 23:37-39, Christ’s second coming is contingent on Israel’s national repentance e.g. they have to ask Him! Compare also Deut 30:1-7 (esp vv 1-3) with Zec 14). If Christ’s single coming is conditional to Israel’s repentance then why aren’t they all raptured as well? How do you reconcile that with the passages in Luke 12:39-43 and Matt 24:36, 44, 50? Do you see the contrast in concepts?
Why do you think the last trump of 1 Cor 15:52 is the 7th trumpet? Paul wrote in terms that the Corinthians would have understood and Revelation wasn’t given until about 90AD. In fact the term last trump had at least 4 contemporary meanings for the Corinthians which are discussed by Renald Showers in Maranatha-Our Lord Come. If you believe there’s no pretrib rapture because Scripture is silent, then why is Revelation also silent about a resurrection and rapture at the 7th trumpet? The only resurrection mentioned is after Rev 19 and at Rev 20:4. If Jesus returns to rapture the church after the tribulation then why are there Trib saints waiting to be resurrected after Satan has been bound and what sort of protection did these saints get (Rev 3:10)? Bob Gundry been shown to be wrong about the Greek meaning of tereo ek in Rev 3:10 and John 17:15b. It does, in fact, mean protection out of and it compelling supports pretrib.
Re imminence – the rapture couldn’t occur 5 mins after Jesus’ ascension either. Certain things had to occur before then. Arnold Fruchtenbaum (Footsteps of the Messiah) and Alva McClain (The Greatness of the Kingdom) point to Luke 21: 2. “When all these things begin to take place” hearkens back to Luke 21: 12 and began to occur in Acts. Alfred Edersheim notes that the early church was expecting the any-moment coming of Jesus (Vol 2 p 451 Life & Times of Jesus the Messiah). I’m not going to comment on the wheat & tares as many pretribulational scholars have already done so (see Pentecost’s Things To Come for just one example).
Colin, I’m intrigued by your statements re dispensationalism dividing “Law from Grace”, ripping the heart out of the gospel and “easy believism”. Can you shed some further light on that?
Firstly, I can introduce you to biblically capable pretribbers who are ex marines and cops; one, who recently passed away, was a Vietnam vet and two others are officers with overseas tour of duties under their belts. I know of others who serve in dangerous missionary fields. Are you judging their motives?
Secondly, normative dispie doctrines hold that salvation has always been by faith through grace -even in the OT and even for Israel! Doesn’t Paul teach that in Romans 3 & 4? I suggest you consult Alva McClain’s Law & Grace and Fruchtenbaum’s Israelology. National Israel will be saved when they recognize their Messiah (Matt 23: 37-39) but they are still a chosen nation in unbelief (Rom 11:28-29) whether anyone likes that or not. Thirdly, that we are all one in Christ doesn’t mean that all believers become “spiritual Israel”. Zec 2:11 tells us that many nations will be called God’s people but they don’t lose their national identity and become Israelites (see also Zec 8:23).
You seem to have an issue with God’s sovereign prerogative regarding what Israel will experience in contrast to a church that won’t experience the hour of trial (Zec 13: 8-9, Rev 3:10 & Dan 9). Regarding Historic Premillennialists; do you realize that George Ladd insisted that the OT was to be re-interpreted by the NT? In his view, one couldn’t take anything in the OT as literal unless it was verified in the NT.
The Old Testament must be interpreted by the New Testament. In principle it is quite possible that the prophecies addressed originally to literal Israel describing physical blessings have their fulfillment exclusively in the spiritual blessings enjoyed by the church. It is also possible that the Old Testament expectation of a kingdom on earth could be reinterpreted by the New Testament altogether of blessings in the spiritual realm. ~ George Ladd
Modern HP proponent and Denver Seminary Professor Craig Blomberg is in agreement.
But if you want to look at 1800 years of church history you should take into account the Reformation; its treatment of the Jews; early supersessionism; differences in hermeneutics (allegorical vs literal) and eschatology (amil vs premil); and early teachings on the Eucharist and infant baptism. Oh, and Covenant Theology only came about around the 17th century and has several modifications since then (see New Covenant Theology etc). Note also that postmillennialism and preterism are new concepts and that there are different forms of amillennialism. I’d suggest to you that 1800 yrs of church history doesn’t trump Scripture.
Sorry, that’s Luke 21:28 not “2”. 😉
Haste causes many typos.
Did you see the comment I left for you? It is comment 112. I just left it on this page because it was more recent and some of the things also relate to yours and Colin’s conversation.
Yes, I did, Daphne.
It’s pretty simple for me. God’s wrath explicitly occurs within the seal judgments and the church is promised deliverance from that. That is not to say the church will never experience tribulation – the issue is how that tribulation comes. There are too many inconsistencies with the other systems which I’m unable to ignore.
I think Eric Douma and Bob DeWaay say it well in these series of lectures:
I also recommend reading Renald Showers’ book “Maranatha” and his response to the prewrath system in his other book.
I guess you noticed I didn’t tell you what stance I have on the rapture and the reason for that is: I have no particular stance on the rapture. I only have a stance in the truth of the Bible. Did you also notice that I answered every question you asked? I noticed that you had no arguments as to anything I said. If your position is correct then you should have been able to dispute at least one of my points.
Christian to Christian I must ask: what is more important to you? Is it to know the truth or to believe something that makes you feel better?
I personally don’t live for the rapture. I live for the coming of Jesus and the resurrection: that my friend is the true Blessed Hope!
Al said: It’s pretty simple for me. God’s wrath explicitly occurs within the seal judgments and the church is promised deliverance from that.
I cannot argue with that. The wrath certainly occurs within the seal judgments: specifically the last one. And yes we are promised that we as Christians will not endure wrath (the punishment of God) but the word temptation/ trial in Rev. 3:10 does not mean punishment of God it means: an enticement to sin. I have all the meanings of wrath and temptation below.
Use of reason, logic, and exegesis you should be able to recognize that the word you call wrath in Rev. 3:10 is the word temptation/trial and has a completely different meaning than that of the word “Wrath” in Rom. 5:9, 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th. 5:9
Definition of temptation Rev 3:10—G3986 peirasmos: 1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14)
b) the trial of man’s fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2) an internal temptation to sin
a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
4) adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one’s character, faith, holiness
c) temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
1) rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves
Definition of Wrath Rom. 5:9, 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th. 5:9—G3709 orge 1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates
I look forward to your reply.
I think Eric Douma and Bob DeWaay say it well in these series of lectures:
I also recommend reading Renald Showers’ book “Maranatha” and his response to the prewrath system in his other book.
I feel the need to issue a caution here. I found the lectures on eschatology at Twincity Fellowship helpful, HOWEVER, one has to be very careful.
There is nothing blatantly in their Statement of Faith to allude to Calvinism/Reformed, if you look at the people and ministries they link to, it is FULL of Calvinists! They take themselves off the hook by the disclaimer that they don’t agree with everything on the linked sites. THIS IS A COPOUT!
Site after site by BLATANT Calvinists. Now puleeeeeze!! Actions speak much louder than words. Many Calvinists have become underhanded in their beliefs, not openly expressing them, only in ambiguous statements that could be taken either way or by ushering Calvinism/Reformed through the back door through favored links.
If Twin City was concerned about the errors of Calvinism they most certainly would not link to James White, Mike Gendron, John MacArthur, Way of the Master and on and on.
So I would not advise anyone to go to the Twin City site for support for a pretrib rapture. There are plenty of other sources, many of them have gone to their reward such as H.A. Ironside and Clarence Larkin, etc.
So Daphne, please don’t take this as a putdown as it is clear that you mean well, but since Calvinism is such an insidious and destructive doctrine, I felt compelled to issue this caution.
Thanks Redeemed for the warning but it wasn’t me who offered for anyone to read commentaries. I never tell anyone to read those. If I offer a person something to read it is with scripture. So I take no offence.
I am relatively new to this site and simply out of curiosity I must ask a question: Why do a majority of people on this site put labels on people they don’t know. Why do they judge? I mean is that Christian to label people just because they may not agree with everything another person believes?
I have also noticed that the ones that are doing all the labeling hardly ever cite scripture only their opinion or commentaries. Why is that? If they are so sure about what the Bible says then I would expect to see scripture to back up any belief: can you not agree?
I surly don’t mean any offense by what I say. It is merely out of curiosity I ask these simple questions so please I hope no one takes me that way! It is with love and respect that I inquire.
So just to throw a few questions into the mix, what will happen to children that are old enough to understand, but are not saved, at the rapture? And what will happen to all the younger kids and babies of the unsaved people left on earth.
Are those who are saved but have died before the rapture, in heaven? And what about the unsaved?
Will these tribulation saints be those who were unbelievers and then believe after the rapture?
Strange you mention this because I was reading something similar yesterday, how odd…
>> what will happen to children that are old enough to understand, but are not saved….And what will happen to all the younger kids and babies of the unsaved people left on earth.
There comes a time in a childs life where he knows good from evil. In each child this time is different, some know very early how to be evil others know much later on how to be evil. Children who are still innocent will be caught up in the rapture. God is a JUST God. But children who are already sinning and their parents have not spoken to them about Jesus… well…
If a child has been indoctrinated into a religion such as Islam from an early age or even Catholicism – the sins of the father now rest on the child.
Exodus 20:5 “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
>> Are those who are saved but have died before the rapture, in heaven? And what about the unsaved?
There are some people who were caught up in the first Resurrection. At the time of Jesus’ resurrection, all the righteous dead who had lived from the day of Adam were also resurrected. To those who lived before the resurrection of Christ (See Matthew 27:52-53)
The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).
Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14). As can be clearly seen in Luke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation. —http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html (please note this is a Calvinist website so use caution when browsing)
>> Will these tribulation saints be those who were unbelievers and then believe after the rapture?
Tribulation saints are 1) Jews and unbelievers and lukewarm professing Christians who then believe some will live others will die by death by beheading.
The false Christian church we have today will me marching on toward Jerusalem to try take it over…(Joels Army)
Daphne, please forgive me. I made a mistake – it was Al C. who made the comment about Twin City.
I don’t see anything wrong with having a commentary in one hand and the Bible in the other. The Holy Spirit gifts people to help exposit the Word.
There is nothing wrong with using Bible tools and aids. But one must be careful.
I don’t know what you are talking about when you say that there is a lack of Scripture references. They are all over the place both in the posts and in Deborah’s articles.
Also, this is a forum and yes, people do express their thoughts. If you mean by “labels” calling a spade a spade such as Calvinism/Reformed or Free Grace, etc., it is important to call out error to identify it.
The purpose of this site is to warn the sheep about dangerous false teachings.
Blessings, to you and thank you for correcting me.
TC, one of the impacts of the Rapture will be when unsaved people with babies or toddlers will find them missing. Babies will be taken right from their mother’s arms. The Rapture will have a huge impact on the world.
There are many things we do not know, that are mysteries, but we can know that our God is fair and just and He will rightly judge who He raptures and who is left to face the tribulation.
It seems to me that the same criteria will apply as to who is taken in the Rapture as when someone dies. For example, if they die as an unaccountable child, they will be raptured/or go to heaven.
Only the Lord can determine when a child is truly accountable. There are many factors to consider and He is the only One Who can judge and know the heart. You ask some interesting questions. If a child is brought up in a cult such as Mormonism, Catholicism or some other false religion they can’t be held accountable for that as they had no choice in the matter. But the Lord can tell if that person would have come to saving faith because He is God and has all knowledge. It is beyond our human mortal mind to comprehend. That is where faith comes in – faith in the perfect judgments of our Lord.
One thing about eschatology, it is being twisted like a pretzel and pretrib has been under attack as never before. One’s eschatological views ARE important – but many just take the “Pan” position, that it will all “pan out”. That IS true, but we are to study to show ourselves approved and then tell others and defend the truth.
The concept of an imminent Rapture when we could be taken at any moment is both purifying and encouraging. Maranatha! Even so come Lord Jesus!
Thanks for your answers Debs. John C and I spoke about these things quite a long time ago and I wanted to get your take on things. I have often wondered about the children.
When you say ‘lukewarm Christians’, surely ALL saved people will be raptured?
Lukewarm are nothing but professing Christians. They have the knowledge of God but deny His power.
Daphne re comment #52 you said:
“I am relatively new to this site and simply out of curiosity I must ask a question: Why do a majority of people on this site put labels on people they don’t know. Why do they judge? I mean is that Christian to label people just because they may not agree with everything another person believes?
I have also noticed that the ones that are doing all the labelling hardly ever cite scripture only their opinion or commentaries. Why is that? If they are so sure about what the Bible says then I would expect to see scripture to back up any belief: can you not agree?”
Daphne, there are elitist camps of believers. I’ve heard them referred to as doctrinal forts. They come by their name honestly, because they spend 90 percent of their time defending the doctrine that they are labelled by. It becomes their preeminent focus. It’s not to say there are no true believers in these camps but when the heretical teaching is allowed to permeate the true faith, it will eventually ruin the whole batch.
Calvinists…I remained in their camp for some time, as a former charismatic, unaware of their doctrinal fort but they soon let me know what I could and couldn’t say. If it didn’t agree with their TULIP doctrine, I was corrected and marginalized.
Free Grace – Their doctrinal fort is, of course…well I’ll let Jack tell you himself – Jan.13/12 Comment section:
“YES!!! That is a keeper — Works and Grace ARE mutually exclusive!! That wonderfully illustrates the absurdity of the “works method of going to Heaven.” Impossible!! As Ephesians 2:8-9 says:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
He got the Scripture right but the concept wrong. “Works and grace are mutually exclusive”???? I think he is confusing Grace and Law. Yes, grace and law are mutually exclusive but as James says:
King James Version (KJV)
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Doctrinal forts are labelled because they are elitist groups who distort the truth by being selective in their message to the exclusion of the whole counsel of God. And…And….they believe everyone else is deceived…of course, because they have a corner on the Truth. But perhaps we have all been there. We must guard against our own private elitism.
As for what you said about people on this blog not using Scripture…has that been your experience here? I do agree that I would rather discuss Scripture than be referred to books by people, although once in a while it is ok. But it is ok to share websites, and other helpful sources of information if we have the time. Personally, I do not have time or money to be buying books, so am thankful that all that is really needed is Scripture and a place to discuss it…iron sharpening iron.
Sorry…I forgot to say that Jack is from the Expreacherman site that he runs for those who might be first time readers here:
[EDITED by DTW – Expreacherman blog is a toxic website of false teaching – beware]
Re: comment #125 To Redeemed
Thanks for your reply Redeemed. There was no apology needed: really! There was no harm done. I agree that looking at commentaries isn’t a bad thing but however like you said “one must be careful.” This warning you give is exactly why I study with the Bible in one hand and a “Strong’s Concordance” in the other and then I use commentaries to see if what I believe after long hard study can be validated. In my opinion people rely on other men’s thoughts too much. This is where heresies come in.
Please accept my apology. I guess you are right. I have looked a little harder and found many scriptures given.
You said, “If you mean by “labels” calling a spade a spade such al Calvinism/Reformed or Free Grace, etc., it is important to call out error to identify it.”
I have no problem with identifying false doctrine or false teachers; however for example I noticed in the comment section of “When Will the Rapture Happen” John has gone so far as to say people hate Jews if they don’t believe in the rapture. Just because he may have run across a couple of people who are Anti-Semitic and don’t believe in the rapture is it fair to say everyone who doesn’t believe in the rapture “HATES”? That is very wrong to make assumptions like that: what in the world does a belief in the rapture have to do with JEWS? It seems to me that anyone who has a different view of the rapture than most on this site are put into categories. Is that profitable to the kingdom of God? Aren’t we suppose to edify not vilify?
Out of curiosity what label goes on people who believe in the pre-trib rapture?
I personally don’t look to the Bible to support per say any view of the rapture. I look to the Bible for the truth. I have heard people say, “I started studying the Bible to find out if the pre-trib rapture was true, and it is, just like I thought it was.” My question is: if you go at the Bible with a bias belief aren’t you out of your pride going to prove yourself right? I only use the pre-trib as an example so please don’t take offense. The same could be said about “Free Grace” or whatever.
Many Blessings to you!
As I told Redeemed I apologize about me saying scripture is not used much on this site unless commentaries are involved. I was wrong in saying that.
About the ex-preacher man: I agree he is way out there! I looked at his site because he is mentioned on this one so much and I had to see what all the fuss was about. lol
You said: Daphne, there are elitist camps of believers. I’ve heard them referred to as doctrinal forts. They come by their name honestly, because they spend 90 percent of their time defending the doctrine that they are labelled by. It becomes their preeminent focus. It’s not to say there are no true believers in these camps but when the heretical teaching is allowed to permeate the true faith, it will eventually ruin the whole batch.
I don’t disagree there are many who concentrate on one thing and try to get their point across and I also think that some go overboard but just because someone has one particular view does that mean they believe the whole doctrine of a particular theology or faith and deserve to be labeled as so? I would think not. I do not hold the doctrines of Catholic, Calvinist, nor any other of the labels that could be put on me: I was raised Baptist and Baptized Pentecost but does that mean I call myself by either one of these or that I hold their doctrines as my own? No it doesn’t. I am a Christian and the only doctrine I hold dear is the gospel of Jesus Christ: I don’t care what any man says.
Free Grace – Their doctrinal fort is, of course…well I’ll let Jack tell you himself – Jan.13/12 Comment section:
“YES!!! That is a keeper — Works and Grace ARE mutually exclusive!! That wonderfully illustrates the absurdity of the “works method of going to Heaven.” Impossible!! As Ephesians 2:8-9 says:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
This is a prime example of what I mean by labeling people. I have a dear friend who agrees with you on the fact that the law and grace complement one another (so to speak) but that person has been labeled a Calvinist on this very web site (an individual: not an elite group). In the example you give a Calvinist is someone who separates the law and grace. How could a Calvinist hold both views?
Just as a warning: you had better be careful with that kind of talk: saying that you need to follow the law in order to be a good Christian or you to will be labeled. There is one person on this site that will fight you over that. I know from experience.
You said: I do agree that I would rather discuss Scripture than be referred to books by people, although once in a while it is ok. I do not have time or money to be buying books, so am thankful that all that is really needed is Scripture and a place to discuss it…iron sharpening iron.
I agree: Amen!
May You Receive Many Blessings!
I think it perhaps more beneficial as believer’s in Christ, to enter into constructive dialogue; if that is at all possible?
As regards these links you have posted, they are by erudite and learned theologians and professors with Doctorates, PHds, and what have you; this leads me to believe that I need a masters degree to read my bible! I should be in despair unless the Lord said ‘Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’: Matthew 18.3! I believe in a post trib rapture, plainly and simply because my Saviour said so! Matthew 24.29-30. For some, I believe that is too hard to understand? But then, I am but a simple soul.
If only, some, one even, of all these educated men who run these websites that I have been reading of yours, with all their qualifications would point me to just one Scripture that teaches a first resurrection before the first resurrection, then I would believe.
I realise that you may think I have some knowledge of the Word, and of course, I do, but I never came to it with a bias! Simply what does God say?
I have read much pre trib material; Bullinger,Anderson,Gaebelin,Ironside and others.
A contributor to this site, recently mentioned Bullinger’s ‘Apocalypse’, when I was a pre trib believer; I read it, he really carves up the Word. He gets tied up in knots over the trumpets, and much else, though that is NOT to say that everything he says is wrong. Bullinger however, is not the most highly regarded pre trib theologian.
You say; ‘salvation has always been by faith through grace.’ Of course this is very true; law and grace are one.
Can I ask YOU a question? Do YOU believe that all the OT saint’s were saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, and not the temple sacrifices?
Re: Daphne # 131:
You seem to be hung up on “labels”. One has to identify certain theologies by name to avoid confusion. And to answer your question, “pretribers” are called “pretribers”! lol
You misunderstand John’s intent – if you look into it, you will find that many if not most who do not hold to a pretrib rapture discount the significance of the nation of Israel and subscribe to “replacement theology”. Yes, there is another “label” but necessary to identify this particular line of thinking.
So, you see, the JEWS are considered important in pretrib doctrine but not in other eschatological positions.
To answer your question, I think that everyone at some time or another goes to the Bible to investigate a particular doctrinal position to “test the spirits” as the Word tells us to do. The Word of God is the plumbline. I don’t think that is pride – it is searching for truth.
Why do you think God through the Holy Spirit raises up Bible teachers, pastors and such if He didn’t intend for us to benefit from the gifts He bestowed upon them? Of course this calls for EXTREME caution as Bible verses can be twisted and taken out of context to mean something other than the truth. But when we find a TESTED & TRUSTED Bible teacher who is helpful in expositing the Word, it is edifying. There are many passages that theologians have been differing on for centuries.
For example, the verses Calvinists use to support their doctrine and even the cults use Scripture. Many times I have gone to my personal favorite, Ironside for clarification and to gain perspective in Bible study. I believe that the Holy Spirit used him to teach the Word. I realize he was but a man and he would be the first to say so as he was a very humble man, and he would expect that his teachings be held up to the light of the Word. He took his CALLING very seriously and realized the heavy responsibility that comes with such a gift. A Bible teacher can be all puffed up with their knowledge and long list of credentials and titles and I have no use for such a one because they are not humble, but prideful. There are far too many who make the circuits to speak and then sell their books and advertise their seminars. I used to go to Prophecy Conferences until I came to realize what was truly going on.
Even so-called “Discernment Conferences” are rife with leaven and questionable speakers all scratching each others’ backs, not wanting to offend anyone in their “network”. We have to wake up and smell the coffee!
The Church is largely in free fall – the apostasy is in full bloom! And as never before we have to have correct, biblical doctrine and that includes a right position on the endtimes and eschatology. But most of all, it is so important to share the Gospel, the TRUE Gospel and realize the time is very short and treat it with URGENCY.
I didn’t mean to turn this into a rant, but I firmly believe it is time to wake up as many who will listen in the Church today to stop compromising and winking at sin and false doctrine to avoid controversy. We can’t afford to do that – too much is at stake! And the few voices that are sending that message have to stand on the wall and SHOUT to be heard. Then they are told to be more dignified and tone it down because you might offend someone. That, to me is reprehensible.
Daphne….you probably noticed that you were reading my comment about the following the Law wrong. I didn’t say that the Law and Grace complemented each other. Noooooo
I also have to say that Deb’s age is not important. Truth is. Her delivery may not be what you would like, but it is her style.
And I don’t believe that Deb has followers…I believe that we are together following Jesus…we are in agreement and able to discuss, not argue doctrine. If it becomes an argument…I’m outta here. 🙂
A thousand pardons, Daphne. I was getting confused with what you said and what Starlight said…she said, Deb’s “you have a following”. That’s an argument that makes no sense.
Mick Rynning wrote:
I read a the version of Margaret Macdonald’s revelation as published in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861) and it does not say there is a pre trib rapture. Whether she is false or not, in that article she talked about the rapture, she also talked about the Wicked one being revealed with lying signs and wonders to deceive even the very elect, and that the trial of the church will be from the Antichrist. I see nothing there sounding like a pre trib rapture. In fact for three whole paragraphs all she talked about was the coming danger of the Antichrist’s attempt to decieve the church after being revealed. I am not a master of the subject so correct me if there is untrue.
[delete – Where is your love? I get nothing but insulted day in and day out by people like yourself and you say I am unloving. What a joke.
I speak the truth on this website and it is misconstrued at being hate speech – What does the Bible say? Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart.”
So seriously if you do not like what is written in the articles on this website and the comments, go find a website where the gospel is NOT preached and you get showered with false worldly love]
Wow this is intense, too intense. Anyone with just a little discernment and common sense should know that Jesus is not going to allow his beloved to go through the great tribulation which includes World war three. People that think so for whatever the reason are just ignorant sheep or pushing false propaganda. I like what John said about just sticking with studying the Bible.
Poor Deb had to spend a lot of time defending herself and the bible, totally unnecessary.
Lol, Wayne I’m not defending myself on this subject, I know the truth. Nor am I defending the Gospel – it defends itself quite fine. But some people do need ‘help’ sometimes hence we are here to give answers to the questions, and debunk the unbelievable amount of lies out there…
Thank you for your supportive comments.
Yes, when we speak the truth and yes, one could say we defend the truth, attacks will come from those who are deluded and those who are blind. Nothing has changed on that from Bible times.
Naturally the enemy’s targets are those who speak biblical truth and stand firm in it and those who expose false gospels. The TRUE gospel saves, but the false gospel results in false conversions.
And yes, the enemy wants to destroy the Blessed Hope of the Rapture of the saints before all hell is unleashed upon this earth. Why? Because FEAR is one of his most effective tools. Many Christians are living in FEAR of what is happening upon the earth and FEAR instills panic and cannot bring godly results and actions.
re comment 130 and Debs note “[EDITED by DTW – Expreacherman blog is a toxic website of false teaching – beware]”
She is correct. I will quote something they wrote about us from the link
Most of them tend to support that view.
” I have to always remind myself that I should feel sorrow for such folks, rather than anger. They are either lost or have fallen from Grace. Either way, they do not currently believe the Gospel.
How elitist/arrogant is that????
I find that here in America there are Pre-Trib believers especially among Independent Baptists and Southern Baptists. It is the Blessed Hope, the PROMISE of Jesus to take His Bride away before God’s judgment falls upon Earth and it’s inhabitants.
To believe any thing else is calling Jesus a “Bride Beater” and a liar. What man that is in love with his bride beats her up first? No, God has always removed His people before any judgment fell. Noah and his family is a prime example. The “Son’s of Korah” when the earth opened up and swallowed all that pertained to them and they went down alive into the pit. See: Numbers 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
Numbers 16:33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
The Congregation didn’t perish, they didn’t face God’s wrath. The men of Korah did.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Amen!
Yes, Sharon, this is the sign of the apostasy. The Bible talks about scoffers who get weary of waiting. They forget that god is not on our timetable! He is outside of time. When the time is exactly right, He will come for His Bride. I guess those believers who have lost the Blessed Hope and come up with all kinds of theories are going to go kicking and screaming when the Lord takes us up. Of course I’m not serious, but one must wonder what they will think when they see they have been wrong.
I just heard someone the other day on the radio say that eschatology doesn’t matter. Well, I think it does. It is not a matter of salvation, but it IS a matter of sound doctrine.
Mick Rynning wrote:
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
According to Dan’s June 7 comment where he quotes you I take it you are saying that the ones who come out of the great tribulation and have died for the testimony of Christ aren’t part of the Bride? How can those who die for the testimony of Christ at any point of the past, present, or future not be part of the Bride?
Daphne, I don’t have adequate time to address this in depth, but I think you are confusing the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ.
Certainly those who are saved during the Tribulation and are martyred for their faith are secure in Christ and are His Body, the Church just as all others are.
Just as the Old Testament believers are in the Body of Christ, His Church even though they died before His sacrifice on the cross. There are different dispensations and situations. Not having a proper understanding of this causes confusion, that is why I consider it very important to rightly divide the Word and comprehend the different ways God deals with mankind at different times in history.
Don’t misunderstand, God and Jesus Christ are the same, today, yesterday and forever, but times and circumstances are not.
I hope this helps.
Dan, if you study the articles that give chapter and verse for the endtime scenario and the Rapture of the Church, you will find answer to your question.
You are right, there is a tunsami of sorts coming, the stage is being set for a one-world government. Be careful that you don’t get caught up in those who are dissecting every bit of news and warning Christians of dire persecution directed at the entire Body of Christ now on earth. They are most likely offbase in their eschatology and what it does is instill fear and the need to take steps to “prepare” for persecution by stocking up on food, guns, etc.
There is only one way to prepare and that is to draw closer to the Lord, be about His business and not be concerned about things that we cannot control, but we know the LORD can and will.
The Lord instructs us to watch and wait and to be faithful and fulfill the Great Commission. He tells us He is coming for His Bride and it is our job to be READY for His coming because we do not know when that will be, but we know it could be at ANY MOMENT. In any case, we are safe with Him, just as Noah and his family were safe in the ark.
We are to be less concerned about the headlines and more concerned about the Bible and devoting ourselves to prayer and serving Him.
The Word alerts us that wickedness would increase and all the things that would occur before He comes for His Church. We are seeing that more and more. It should not be any surprise for us.
Hi Redeemed I hope all is well! I know you probably thought I forgot about you again. In your reply to me you said you thought I was confusing the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ. For me to confuse the Bride of Christ with the Body of Christ they would have to be two different things. If so then could you please explain how the Bride of Christ is not the Body of Christ and the Body of Christ is not the Bride. We are all one in the Lord Jesus; we (those who believe in him) are the body and the Bride i.e. the Church.
Eph. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the CHURCH: and he is the savior of the body.
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are ONE BODY in Christ, and every one members one of another.
“Just as the Old Testament believers are in the Body of Christ, His Church even though they died before His sacrifice on the cross. There are different dispensations and situations. Not having a proper understanding of this causes confusion, that is why I consider it very important to rightly divide the Word and comprehend the different ways God deals with mankind at different times in history.”
“Don’t misunderstand, God and Jesus Christ are the same, today, yesterday and forever, but times and circumstances are not.”
What you are saying is confusing in itself. God and Jesus are the same today as they were a million years ago but God does things according to changing circumstances: So God is a go with the flow kind of fellow and his will for me is whatever the circumstances dictates? It seems to me that even you are confused in what you are saying. If that is not true then why would you feel the need to explain to me that God is the same today as yesterday?
God dictates circumstances not the other way around and he has never treated man differently: he expects acknowledgement, obedience, and love and if he doesn’t get them from individuals or from nations he punishes them. If they repent (change their mind) and give him thanks and start living right he will change his mind and withhold his judgment but if not he will carry out his punishment.
What it all boils down to is there are two kinds of people in this world: those who love Jesus and those who don’t; there are the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares, and there are those who will endure God’s wrath (punishment) and those who won’t.
As far as dispensationalism is concerned it is a man made thing. It was man who divided times of history not God, as a matter of fact man can’t decide how many dispensations (if it really meant periods of time) there should be and have anywhere from seven to four.
The word “Dispensation” is used commonly in the sense of a period of time or epoch but according to “Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words” to use this word in that way is incorrect because it has nothing to do with periods of time. The word dispensation is used by Paul four times in the New Testament and he uses it to mean stewardship or administration of the Lords Word. The actual definition by “Strong’s Concordance” is: (G3622-oikonomia) (1) the management of a household or of household affairs; (a) specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other’s property; (b) the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship; c) administration, dispensation.
2 Cr. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Can you or anyone here answer this question? If the Bema seat judgment is for all Christians who are resurrected and raptured when Jesus comes in the clouds and that judgment takes place in heaven during the seven years of tribulation while many thousands are being martyred then when does the “Tribulation Saints” get their rewards? When are they resurrected and dressed in white linen? They are Saints after dying for Christ, so certainly they will be coming back with Jesus and those saints who were resurrected and raptured when Jesus came in the clouds? After all Paul told us that Jesus would bring those who died in him with him (1 Th. 4:14).
P.S. Retraction:Time was divided once by God and that was when Jesus came and things changed from the Old Testament times to the New Testament times.
>> If the Bema seat judgment is for all Christians who are resurrected and raptured when Jesus comes in the clouds and that judgment takes place in heaven during the seven years of tribulation while many thousands are being martyred then when does the “Tribulation Saints” get their rewards? When are they resurrected and dressed in white linen? They are Saints after dying for Christ, so certainly they will be coming back with Jesus and those saints who were resurrected and raptured when Jesus came in the clouds?
Tribulation saints go straight into the new Millennium with Jesus Christ, they do not go upto heaven.
9 After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands. 10 They were shouting out in a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God, to the one seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels stood there in a circle around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they threw themselves down with their faces to the ground before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Praise and glory, and wisdom and thanksgiving, and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!” 13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These dressed in long white robes – who are they and where have they come from?” 14 So I said to him, “My lord, you know the answer.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb! 15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night in his temple, and the one seated on the throne will shelter them. 16 They will never go hungry or be thirsty again, and the sun will not beat down on them, nor any burning heat, 17 because the Lamb in the middle of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
What you fail to comprehend is that the Tribulation is unlike ANYTHING ever seen on this earth, and the entire Tribulation that being all 7 years is God’s wrath upon man-kind, the last 3.5 being the most violent of all 7 years.
Answer this: Do you think He is going to leave His Bride on earth to face His wrath? When He made an escape for Noah when he destroyed the earth, he made an escape for Abraham from Sodom and Gomorrah, do you think He is incapable of making an escape plan for His Bride?
Thanks for your reply Deborah.
I understand all too well that the tribulation period is going to be worse than at any time in history and that the worst part of it will start at the time of the Abomination of Desolation but nowhere in the Bible does it say the time of Jacobs’s trouble is God’s wrath (punishment). Answer me this riddle Bat Man (lol): if it is the Antichrist who is killing all the Christians that come to Christ after the rapture/during tribulation, is that God wrath? Clearly that is what the pre-trib people seem to think it is? If it is then the passages that say Christians won’t have to endure God’s wrath is a lie? Because rather they come to Christ after the rapture or not they are still Christians?
You said: Answer this: Do you think He is going to leave His Bride on earth to face His wrath? When He made an escape for Noah when he destroyed the earth, he made an escape for Abraham from Sodom and Gomorrah, do you think He is incapable of making an escape plan for His Bride?
Noah nor Lot were removed from the earth to avoid the destruction that was coming. The first born of the Hebrews were not removed from the earth when God’s hand trolled through Egypt killing the first born Egyptians. If you read Ezekiel nine you will find that there were six men who came into Jerusalem and they all had a slaughter weapon in their hand and one of the men was dressed with linen and he had a writer’s ink horn and God told the man with the ink horn to mark all those who cried for all the abomination that had been done there (long story short) those not marked were killed. Then last but not least there is the 144,000 (Christians: those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes) that will not be removed from earth but will be sealed to keep them safe from the wrath of God. Why couldn’t all Christians be saved in the same manner?
Rev. 6:17-For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev. 7:3-Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
You said: Tribulation saints go straight into the new Millennium with Jesus Christ, they do not go up to heaven.
This does not adequately answer my questions: when is their resurrection and why are they not part of the marriage supper of the Lamb when all the other Christians are?
P.S. Re: Why couldn’t all Christians be saved in the same manner?
I do realize that some will be killed but there are some who won’t so when I used the word “all” I miss spoke (wrote lol).
Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and SOME of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast SOME of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Matt. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
There will be those left alive that remain after the tribulation so all the elect are not killed.
I am going to jump the gun and guess that the next argument (lack of better words) will probably be that the elect in Matthew 24 is not the Christians but they are; Jack Van Impe said so Sunday morning (lol: he really did!). http://numberofhisname.blogspot.com/search/label/Jack%20Van%20Impe
But of course other than listening to Jack I read the Bible and scripture tells us that the elect are those who follow Jesus an example of that is 1 John 1:1-3.
2 John 1:1-3 The elder (John/apostle/Jew/Christian) unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; for the truth’s sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us forever. Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Clearly John is writing a letter to a sister in Christ and he addresses her as “the elect lady”.
Strong’s Concordance: G1599-eklektos: picked out, chosen by God to obtain salvation through Christ. You will find this same meaning is also used in Matthew 24.
I look forward to your reply.
>> Answer me this riddle Bat Man (lol): if it is the Antichrist who is killing all the Christians that come to Christ after the rapture/during tribulation, is that God wrath?
Antichrist is not killing Christians that are coming to Jesus Christ, he is killing PEOPLE coming to Jesus Christ to become Christian. Think about your wording Robbin before you try to trick Batman ok? lol 😉
>> P.S. Re: Why couldn’t all Christians be saved in the same manner?
All Christians are saved in the same manner, I don’t understand what you are speaking about.
You don’t want to believe that the time of the Tribulation as explained in the bible is meant for Israel and not the church. God seals 144,000 Jews to do the witnessing at the start of the 7 years. They are given power to preach and they are protected from all of the God’s divine judgments AND from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation (all 7 years) – God will enact divine judgment against those who rejected Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel see here: Daniel 9:24-27 . The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied here (Zechariah 12:10 and here Romans 11:25-27), and their mission is to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions or “a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9) “will come to faith in Christ.”
I do not know why you are listening to Jack Van Impe he is a false teacher.
That blog is wrong regarding the verse
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
They say that the word elect here is actually Jesus by trying to link Isiah 42:1 to the above verse. This could not be further from the truth.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Just because Jesus is mentioned as the elect in Isiah does not mean that the elect is Jesus in Matthew 24:22.
Firstly Matthew 24:22 has the following verses linked to it: (Isa 65:8-9; Matt 22:14; Matt 24:24; Matt 24:31; Luke 18:7) < -- All these verses speak about a gathering of people, an gathering of chosen people, an elect people. Secondly If you read the Matthew 24:22 properly it says: "....there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake”. “No flesh” refers to a ‘body of people’.
‘no’ means πᾶς all and flesh means σάρξ a human being This states that the elect are a group of people, not ‘one’ person and certainly not Jesus Christ. Then there states a BUT and it says, for the sake the elect, those days shall be shortened. The group of people are the elect.
just want to thank you for your clear understanding of the scriptures.i was reborn in 1974.i lived in benoni [johannesburg] and moved back to new zealand. please continue the goodnews.with christian love,antoinette
Ephesians5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things’ sake the WRATH of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
1st Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the WRATH to come.
1Thessalonians5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
I just wish to share some thoughts I have concerning the Rapture of the Church (true church) The verses I have shared above are proof sufficient that we (the church) will NOT go through the Great Tribulation. But… … we could very well go through a great persecution.
Being an American has always afforded us freedom of religion like no other nation on earth. I believe the true church here in the USA for the most part believes that we will always have the freedoms that many died for us to have. But I also believe that the “winds of change” are blowing very strong. Our leaders are reprobates for the most part and some are even worse. The FACT that our Lord Jesus Christ will soon catch His Bride away is clearly taught in scripture.
We shouldn’t try to make scripture fit into our plans. What the WORD says is what the WORD means. God knew that man would need HOPE whether saved or not, all humans need hope. So God knowing this gave us the simple, beautiful, profound and prophetic(sounds like Jesus doesn’t it?) verse of scripture in Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
God’s Tribulation wrath is not just God being angry. It’s not God just being upset. This is the WRATH OF GOD! After centuries of people trampling through the blood of His precious Son, Jesus Christ it is time for God to repay. God stated in the Word in Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
God says, that’s it, this is the time of my vengeance. So with that said, praise God that we, the saved, have The Blessed Hope! After we are gone all hell breaks out upon this planet for 7 years. It will be this time when we are first to be judged. This judgment is not about where we spend eternity. That was secured the moment we received Jesus as our Savior. But we will be judged for what we did for Christ, or what we didn’t do for Him.
I hope those who come to this site and have not been saved very long will be able to glean from the truth that is written in this blog. Heresy is hit hard and rightfully so. I am no theologian but of the things that I have read here are right on.
I grew up in a preachers family so the issues here, the ones familiar to Americans
I agree 99.9% of what is said here. We may differ in the ways we express our beliefs, but so far everything at this blog is 100 correct.
I hope in some small way to help someone see this issue of the rapture of the church a little better. Please get your Bible and look up the verses I have placed here. Before you read, pray and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you.
Here is a saying that helps me understand a verse better. Remember, every thing written in scripture is TO us. But not every thing is FOR us. There are some things, even in the New Testament that are for the Jews only. Other things are for the gentiles also.
Do you have the Blessed Hope?
Thanks for your reply!
You said: “Antichrist is not killing Christians that are coming to Jesus Christ; he is killing PEOPLE coming to Jesus Christ to become Christian. Think about your wording Robbin before you try to trick Batman ok? lol ;)”
Okay, my bad, let’s put it this away. I am sure that after all the “true Christians” disappear in the rapture there will be many who know what has happened and within a short time give their life to Jesus. For example let’s say I am raptured up and my mother who has lived with me the past five years is well aware of the rapture because I talked about it all the time. Wouldn’t it seem plausible that after me and millions of others have disappeared she would know what happened and immediately give herself to the Lord? I would think so. So then she is a Christian at the very moment she ask Jesus to come into her life: right? Then three days later (let’s say) the Antichrist’s people show up at the house and offer her the mark or to die and she doesn’t except it and they kill her. Would she not be a Christian killed in the tribulation/wrath of God? I mean how many PEOPLE who are not Christians will give their life for Jesus?
“I do not know why you are listening to Jack Van Impe he is a false teacher.”
I listen to Jack for one reason and that is to catch him in lies and expose them on occasion.
“That blog is wrong regarding the verse.”
That article was in no way saying that the elect in Matthew 24:22 or 24:24 is Jesus that would be ridiculous; it is clear it means a group of people not one person and that group of people is Christians. If it is not Christians then why would Jesus warn that there would be false Christs? I mean how many people do you know who don’t believe in Jesus that is going to be deceived by a false Christ especially an unbelieving Jew? If I didn’t believe in Jesus I sure wouldn’t be deceived by a false Christ because I wouldn’t be studying it to start with.
What that article is saying is that last year (and many years before) Jack Van Impe was telling people that the word elect in Isa. 42:1 is the Jews (a group of people) and that proved the word elect in Matthew 24 was the Jews and not Christians: this year he is saying the word elect in Matt. 24 is the Christians. Now let me throw this question into the mix: If Jesus is the elect and we as Christians are his body (one with him) then would we not be the elect too? Notice in Mark 13:20 (a parallel verse to Matthew 24:22) how the elect are also called the chosen of Christ: whom he (Jesus) hath chosen so these people are not just any group of people but rather the chosen of Christ (Christians).
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the ELECT’S sake, whom he hath CHOSEN, he hath shortened the days.
One more question that I have been wondering about for a while now concerning the pre-trib rapture: when it happens are the Christian Jews who live in Israel raptured?
Many Blessings to you!!!
>> For example let’s say I am raptured up and my mother who has lived with me the past five years is well aware of the rapture because I talked about it all the time. Wouldn’t it seem plausible that after me and millions of others have disappeared she would know what happened and immediately give herself to the Lord? I would think so.
Not necessarily so, if people don’t give their lives to Jesus when times are going well, the chances of them giving their lives to Jesus when times are going bad is even worse. Just the fact that people who were left behind will harden their hearts. Its the nature of man to do so.
>> So then she is a Christian at the very moment she ask Jesus to come into her life: right? Then three days later (let’s say) the Antichrist’s people show up at the house and offer her the mark or to die and she doesn’t except it and they kill her. Would she not be a Christian killed in the tribulation/wrath of God? I mean how many PEOPLE who are not Christians will give their life for Jesus?
Whether she made a decision right after the rapture or later it does not matter, it is the tribulation, she is going to be persecuted for what she believes in right?
However the bible says that God send judgement after judgement to the earth and the people swear and curse God more and more, instead of turning to Him. The anti-Christ is persecuting people and they join him in leaps and bounds instead of turning to God. Read here: Seals, Trumpets, Bowls and The Blessed Hope
And Jesus says, that when He returns he doubts he will find any faith on earth.
Luke 18:8 “I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
>> when it happens are the Christian Jews who live in Israel raptured?
yes, they are new creatures in Jesus Christ, part of the body of Christ/Bride.
Jack and Rexella Van Impe are false teachers. At one time he was doctrinally straight as an arrow. His ministry building is about 20 miles from where I grew up in Michigan.
Jack hit hard at the Vatican for many years. The man knows most of the Bible by memory.
He set a date back in the 80’s for the Lords return. I quit listening back then.
Many of the Baptist Pastors and Evangelists stopped fellowshipping with him because of his heresy. Then along comes Pope John II Jack announces that he is sure the pope is a born again pope. What heresy!
From that point on Jack turned in favor of Roman Catholicism. His ancestors were Catholic. I guess the pope made Jack feel welcome. What ever.
One time I was “channel surfing” to see what was on. I stopped when I saw Jack holding up his bible. Right on the very front cover was a satanic symbol. So I sent an email to his ministry twice and asked why he was using a bible with this symbol right on the from cover. I got no reply either time. That told me why he was holding it up.
This symbol is what is called The Star of David. The Star of David has nothing to do with King David. The Jews even say it is not the star of David. Even before Hitler used it during WWII it was an ancient Babylonian symbol.
You said: “Not necessarily so, if people don’t give their lives to Jesus when times are going well, the chances of them giving their lives to Jesus when times are going bad is even worse. Just the fact that people who were left behind will harden their hearts. Its the nature of man to do so.”
I know you must have miss spoke when you said chances are slim that people will give their lives to the Lord when going through tribulations? That is when most people turn to the Lord: when they are in trouble with nowhere else to turn?
You said: “Whether she made a decision right after the rapture or later it does not matter, it is the tribulation, she is going to be persecuted for what she believes in right?”
Right, she is going to be persecuted for what she believes in which brings us back to the original question: if persecution/tribulation is the wrath of God then would she not be a Christian suffering the wrath of God and if So wouldn’t that make those verses that say Christians aren’t to suffer the wrath of God a lie?
You said: “The anti-Christ is persecuting people and they join him in leaps and bounds instead of turning to God. And Jesus says, that when He returns he doubts he will find any faith on earth.”
I agree there will be those excepting the mark in leaps and bounds but there will also be a number which no man can count who don’t except it. Rev. 7:9, 14 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues… And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation…
You said: Yes, they are new creatures in Jesus Christ, part of the body of Christ/Bride.
Thanks, I really was wondering about that. I read a pre-trib commentary a while back by a guy (can’t remember who) that said all those in Judah who run and hide (Matt. 24) are Christian Jews.
Not reading the article or the comments (hey I’m honest…) but I would like to point out that condemning other Christians for their beliefs misguided or not causes more alienation than any athiest article. You just turned me off to whatever point you were trying to make within the first few sentences. We’re to bring each other up not tear each other down. To understand the apocalypse is to already be experiencing it first hand. Stop trying to sell Left Behind and go back to the Bible. And cause I’m lazy can you explain when the Holy Spirit leaves the Earth with God’s bride how anyone “left behind” is to be saved or is Revelation left to fall on deaf ears?
Then you have the wrong Jesus in mind. The real Jesus said:
These articles are not written to condemn anyone – believer or unbeliever. They are written to warn others against falsde teachers and their deceitful teachings. The teaching that there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a deception and you are deceived. The restraining power of the Holy Spirit is going to be removed and not his office as Comforter to convict of sin, righteousness and judgement. The Holy Spirit resides in all believers collectively who are the salt and the light of the world. When they are removed their light (which exposes the lies of Satan) and their salt (which is a preservative agianst evils in society) will no loinger be on earth, the result being – JUDGMENT AND CHAOS. Hopefully you may recall that when Abraham prayed for Sodom and Gomorrah he based his prayers on the presence of believers as the means to appease and restrain God so that He would not judge them. Guess what? There are not going to be a single saved believer left on the earth after the Rapture, the result being that the restraining power of the Person who lives in all believers – and not only restrains evil but also God’s judgment on the evil – will no longer be on earth.
Did you notice the words “restrain” and restraining?” Of course you did. Well, then you should start to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture.
It seems to me that luke 21:28 could only be referring to those to be raptured , ie because those left behind will not have a head to lift up to look up , does that sound right to you bible scholars ?
>> It seems to me that luke 21:28 could only be referring to those to be raptured , ie because those left behind will not have a head to lift up to look up , does that sound right to you bible scholars ?
Sometimes trying to be a smart alec gets you no reply, did you not read the article? Never the less I will answer you – luke 21:28 does not refer to the pre-trip escape but the final rapture at the end of the trib.
A couple of questions: Is not “at the last trump” in 1Corinthians 15:52 the 7th and last trumpet where the 7 vials of God’s wrath are poured upon the earth (Revelation 15)? Is this trumpet which occurs “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29-31) where the same terrestrial and celestial events occur in Revelation 6:12-17? And maybe this is the same trumpet accompanied by a shout and command of Christ in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 when the rapture happens (which, by the way, seems similar to Revelation 11:11-15 where the two witnesses are resurrected and are caught up to heaven in a cloud right at the 7th and last trumpet)? And why does Paul use the pronoun “we” in his passages concerning the resurrection?
Another question: Isn’t Revelation 7 (specifically v 9) the answer to the question in Revelation 6:17 “and who is able to stand” before “the face of Him who sitteth on the throne?” This great innumerable multitude of saints with palm branches seem reminiscent of the great crowd that accompanied and welcomed Christ in His “Triumphal Entry” into Jerusalem on the donkey where here He is coming on clouds.
Couple of more questions: Were not the Israelites led out of Egypt AFTER the Egyptians experienced great tribulation and the Israelites were protected through them; even from the worst and last plague by the seal of blood on their doorposts? Why was Noah not translated like His great grandfather Enoch nor died just before the flood like His grandfather Methuselah but instead was protected through the flood?
THE LAST TRUMP
It depends on whether you believe in dispensationalism or not. If you don’t the last trump will mean the last in point of time to you. If you do, it would mean the last in sequence. In the latter scenario the word “last” signifies the conclusion of a program (or dispensation). It also depends on whether you believe the church has replaced Israel (Replacement Theology) and that God has no program for his chosen people, the Jews. However, if you believe that God’s program for the church (dispensation of grace) differs from his program for the Jews (the seven year tribulation, also called the time of Jacob’s trouble), then each of these programs (dispensations) will be terminated by the blowing of a trumpet, called the last trumpet without making the two last trumpets identical. There are several differences between the two trumpets.
1) The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 will sound before God pours out his wrath on the world (seven years tribulation). The trumpet in Revelation 11:15 will be blown at the end of the time of God’s wrath (seven years tribulation), just prior to Jesus Christ’s Second Advent to the earth.
2) The last trumpet for the church in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is called the trump of God. The seventh trumpet in Revelation 11 is an angel’s trumpet, probably the angel Gabriel who is the angel of Israel.
3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets precede or follow it and therefore cannot be said to be the last in a series. The trumpet that ends the tribulation period is clearly the last in a series of seven.
4) The voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4 is heard before the resurrection of the dead and the transfiguration of the living saints. Whilst a resurrection is mentioned in Revelation(11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection
5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians heralds a blessing in life and in glory while the trumpet in Revelation heralds judgment on the enemies of God.
6) 1 Thessalonians the trumpet sounds “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” In Revelation 10:7 it probably sounds for the entire duration of the judgments that occur under it because John speaks of the angel that shall “begin to sound.”
The Rapture of the church and of the two witnesses in Revelation differ in some detail. The Rapture of the church is called a mystery (“musterion”) whilst that of the two witnesses is not identified thus. Both the two witnesses are killed and then resurrected to be caught up. At the Rapture some saints will already have died and then resurrected whilst the living saints are going to be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. This is the mystery which had not been revealed before in the Old Testament whilst the resurrection of the dead (such as the two witnesses) was common knowledge in the Old Testament.
Paul used the pronoun “we” because he believed that the Rapture could happen any moment, even in his day.
Revelation 7:9 and 6:9 describe the same event. These are the saints who are going to be martyred and killed during the Tribulation. They will be granted a special privilege to serve and worship God before his throne. Revelation 6:17 describes the judgment of unbelievers during the tribulation.
The argument that the present day saints are not going to be raptured and instead will go through the seven year tribulation is flawed. As you’ve said, the anti Pre-Trib rapturists believe that God is going to protect the saints in much the same way He protected Israel in the land of Goshen when He poured out his wrath on Egypt. The fact is that not a single Israelite and their livestock were killed whilst they remained in Goshen. However, during the seven years tribulation God is going to grant Antichrist the power to make war with the saints and to overcome them (kill them – Revelation 13:7; 6:9). What kind of protection is that? Surely, if the protection of the Israelite in Goshen was a prototype of God’s protection of the saints in the tribulation, then none of them should be killed because not a single Israelite was killed during their slavery in Egypt. In fact, most of the saints are going to be beheaded during the tribulation and precious little will remain to be raptured at a Post-Trib Rapture, that’s if there is one.
Why wasn’t Noah translated like his grandfather Enoch? Well, I suppose we can also ask, “Why wasn’t Cain raptured before he murdered his brother Abel or why wasn’t Abel raptured before his brother Cain murdered him. At least then Cain would have been prevented from sinning against God. The name “Noah” means to comfort. “And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. (Genesis 5:29). He could not have been much of a comforter for those who lived under the curse if he had been raptured like his grandfather Enoch who escaped the curse. It reminds me of what Paul once said, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. (Philippians 1:21-24). Noah could only have been more needful as a comforter to those who lived under the curse whilst he was still on earth and therefore, I assume, he was not raptured.
Thank you very much for your reply. Your answers are interesting but I’m not one to argue.
A few more questions in response to your question “What type of protection is that?” What type of protection did Christ offer to the congregation in Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11)? I can see them awaiting comforting news from a messenger sent from the Apostle John with a letter dictated to him by Christ. They are encouraged to see that Christ knew about the “tribulation” they were going through, their “poverty” which was a consequences of that tribulation, and the “insults” (blasphemy) they endure from a neighboring prospering Jewish congregation who measures their “blessing” by their material prosperity and not by the prosperity of their impoverished souls. The messenger stands before the congregation and reads that they are to stop fearing an ever greater suffering. But ow can these next words not bring great fear to even this faithful church. The devil himself will point the accusing finger to cause some to be incarcerated. Ten days of false accusations will lead some even to be executed. And the comfort that Christ gives is “be faithful unto death.” Be faithful unto death? What type of protection is that? Protection that when they endure unto the end they will be saved and receive a victors (nikoia) crown of life. This type of protection is protection from the second death. Reminds me of what happens in Luke 21:12-19 where some will be killed no doubt by beheading. But how can “not an hair on their head (not) perish” mean that those who lose their heads will do so with promise of keeping a head full of hair? Again protection from the second death. That is the type of protection our God provides to those of us who endure tribulation. We who suffer with Him have the promise to reign wit Him. We wear the brand-marks of Christ without fear and without shame.
Is answering questions a kind of arguing? You don’t have to agree with everything I say. However whatever you say must harmonize with Scripture and at the moment you are doing a little “protection” egg dance. First you insist that the alleged protection of the saints in the seven years tribulation will be a literal and complete physical protection from harm in much the same way the Israelite were protected in Goshen during their bondage in Egypt and then you do an about turn to insist that it will be a spiritual protection from the second death.
Are you suggesting that a saint’s endurance to the end is what saves him? It sounds too much like the Calvinists’ “P” in TULIP (Perseverance of the saints). Are you a Calvinist? All saints receive “protection” from the second death the moment they are born again. It is not contingent upon their endurance in times of persecution.
The protection in Revelation 2:8-11 is not a protection from God’s wrath as it was in the time of Israel’s bondage in Egypt. The seven years tribulation is primarily a time of God’s wrath upon the entire world. (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10). There is a vast difference between the tribulation of the saints and the seven years tribulation. When referring to the seven years tribulation Jesus said in Matthew 24 that it would be a time “ . . . such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” The persecution and tribulation of the saints already began with the murder of Abel and has continued down the centuries until this very day. There’s nothing unique about the tribulation of the saints and can hardly be seen as something that never happened since the beginning of the world to this time. Moreover, the tribulation of the saints throughout the ages never occurred simultaneously to all saints worldwide. While some saints experienced persecution and tribulation in one place, others did not in other places. The tribulation during the seven years’ time of Jacob’s Trouble will be a worldwide occurrence befalling all of mankind and not only the saints (the Jews and Gentiles who are going to be saved during the seven years tribulation). “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10).
The word “from” in the above verse is “ek” (ex) and denotes a complete removal from one place to another. It is the same word used to describe Jesus’ resurrection from among the dead.
At first the disciples could not understand when He told them that He would be raised from the dead (ek nekros). The phrase “ek nekros” (from among the dead) was to them a completely new concept. They believed in a general resurrection when all the dead would be raised but never before heard about a resurrection from among the dead, i.e. a resurrection from the dead whilst the rest of the dead remained un-resurrected. They believed that the resurrection entailed the simultaneous resurrection of everyone. It was only after Christ’s resurrection that they understood the meaning of “ek nekros.”
The reason why Paul called the Rapture a mystery (a “musterion” – something not previously disclosed) was because this very concept of a complete removal of the saints from among unbelievers, from one place to another, was unknown. First the deceased saints are going the be raised from among the dead (ek nekros) in the very same way Jesus was raised from amongst the dead, and then the living saints are going to be changed from the corruptible to the incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye. And then these two groups of saints are going to be removed (“ek” – ex) from among the unbelievers on earth to meet Jesus in the air.
No dance here. I refuse to ignorantly judge brethren and people whom I do not know. Eventually the Master will allow us to meet sooner or later and hopefully we will both rejoice. Just asking questions and reading your answers. And to answer your question “No. I am not a Calvinist.” But Matthew 24:13 and Luke 21:19 are not my words. Please take a word of advice in peace (again not my words): “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.”
Your egg dance is becoming a lot more aggressive. You must decide whether you want your alleged protection of the saints during the seven years tribulation to be a literal, physical one or a spiritual one. You can’t have it both ways.
Walfoord and Zuck says of Matthew 24:13 and Luke 21:19 (and I agree with them) the following:
These verses do not refer to the Bride of Christ in this dispensation of grace between the outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost and the Rapture when He (the Restrainer – the Holy Ghost) will be taken out of the way at the Rapture prior to the seven yea rs Tribulation.
And by the way, I was not judging you. I was judging what you said (believe) in the light of Scripture. That’s precisely what you should do as well.
you should check christconnection.net. google ‘word 4 today’ Martel Trevor Ministries
This guy at Christ connection (the name of his website is very telling) is part of the New Apostolic Reformation; a take dominion of your planet Apostle/Prophet and 100% false teacher.
It appears he is a date setter for the start of the Tribulation.
1st Time Trib was to start: Thursday, February 26, 2015
Revised, his 2nd attempt: Revised and re-published on January 6, 2017
We are in the Trib now according to him…ag sies tog.