Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

Shadows of the Beast- Jacob Prasch

Shadows of the Beast:  Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

So I bought the book, “Shadows of the Beast” by Jacob Prasch and didn’t really make it past the Prologue.  I was kinda horrified at a number of things.  I will begin to list them in this article.  To start off with, Jacob Prasch is anti Pre-Tribulational rapture and bases his whole ‘idea‘ on the premise that Jesus won’t come back and Rapture the church until the anti-Christ makes himself known in the middle of the Tribulation.  He uses this verse as his only backup:  (2 Thessalonians 2:3)  “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

The problem is, Jacob is not telling us the truth, because if you go and read from the beginning of the chapter you find out that Paul is speaking to the Thessalonians, not about the Rapture, but about ‘the day of the Lord’.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1  Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2  not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
3  Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Talking of pre-tribulationists, Jacob Prasch says, “They must also fail to draw due distinction between the Great Tribulation and “the Day of the Lord” which are distinct time periods.”  [pg. 17]     Well I beg to differ.

What exactly is “the day of the Lord'”?  The day of the Lord is The Tribulation made up of two parts;  The Tribulation being first 3.5 years and the Great Tribulation being last 3.5 years, totaling 7 years from start to finish plus Jesus’ Second Coming!


So what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is saying is this: The Tribulation aka “the day of the Lord” will not start until the apostasy comes first, and Jesus’ Second Coming (when He sets foot on earth) will not take place until after the anti-Christ has been reveal.

Another way to look at it is that, the Antichrist will be revealed before ‘the day of the Lord’ (or Tribulation stars) but can only be revealed right after the time of the Rapture.

Jacob Prasch says, “The Rapture and Resurrection cannot happen until the “man of lawlessness” is revealed. [pg. 22]   Then he quotes (2 Thessalonians 2:3) “Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the apostasy come first, and the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction.”    He is saying that the word, “it” is the Rapture and Resurrection only.   This is FALSE.  As shown above, it is “the Day of the Lord” which encompasses The Tribulation and Jesus’ Second Coming.

Regarding the Rapture

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
1 Now on the topic of times and seasons, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you.
2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come in the same way as a thief in the night.
3 Now when they are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will surely not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the darkness for the day to overtake you like a thief would.
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

Paul says: (1 Thessalonians 5:1)“But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.”  The word time here in Greek means chronos (khron’-os) in which we get the English word chronology.  So, of the general chronology, of this particular time Paul says that no one needs write about it because they have ALREADY been instructed: 1) concerning the general time when Jesus said He would come and 2) concerning the particular time.  So the general time CAN be known, but not the actual time. And this is a FANTASTIC message.

In (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3) Paul says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Time of Jacob’s trouble

It is IMPORTANT to note that the whole 7 year Tribulation period (also known as “Time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7) is considered a time of JUDGEMENT from God, not just the last 3.5 years which some seem to think.   Judgments will be poured out on earth as the seven-sealed scrolls are opened consecutively by the Lamb.  Judgments of the Seals, Trumpets and plagues GROWS IN INTENSITY, until you reach 2nd half of the tribulation, namely the Great Tribulation which lasts for another 3.5 years, where God’s Wrath is finally poured out IN FULL on mankind.  If Jacob Prasch thinks that the first half of The Tribulation is not part of God’s wrath on earth, then I do not know what bible he is reading.  Maybe he should stop reading extra-biblical books like the Midrash and pay attention to the Word of God alone to get a clue.

So how does the Rapture of the church relate to “the Day of the Lord” which happens before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ by 7 years?  We know that “the Day of the Lord” will come suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night, in other words, The Tribulation starts suddenly and unexpectedly.  And the Rapture of the church MARKS the end of ‘the day of Grace’ and simultaneously MARKS the beginning of the ‘the day of the Lord’.  As soon as the church is removed, the Antichrist is revealed and the trials and tribulations of this world begin in all earnest, the birth pangs are over, the birth begins, and no one can escape it.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

Paul tells the born again believers to be alert and sober, to watch for Jesus!

Looking for Satan

We are not to look for Satan as Jacob Prasch want us too, we do not have to identify the him and his False Prophet! Jacob deliberately writes a book twisting scripture trying to cheat saints out of the Blessed Hope. The Bible tells us we are look towards Jesus Christ only and comfort one another with the message that He will return.    (1 Thessalonians 4:1-18)  “15 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-18

1  Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2  For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3  For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4  That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5  Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6  That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7  For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9  But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10  And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11  And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12  That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jacob Prasch mentions many ideas and mis-conceptions in his book that make it sound like Pre-tribulationsists are a bunch of false teachers that need to be dealt with urgently.  I am going to list them and answer them:

1) He makes the statement that “The patriarch of Pre-Tibulationism, Dr. John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary admitted there is no stated biblical passage overtly teaching a Pre-Tribulational position.  Walvoord states, that “the Rapture is between the lines”. [pg. 16]     So because Dr John Walvoord changes his view now we must all fall down and beg for forgiveness because a so called patriach of Pre-Tribulationism says so?  I think not.  Walvoord can change his mind, but the Word of God stays the same.

2) Jacob states that Pre-Tribulationists are against identifying the anti-Christ and this is a BIG problem.  This is news to me, I had no idea that we were against identifying the anti-Christ because the bible tells us that  (1 Thessalonians 5:6) “we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.”    However the bible also does tell us not to focus our attentions on evil things, but to focus our attentions on Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:1-4
1 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory.

3) Jacob states; “The Greek term for “tribulation” (thelipsis) and the eschatological testing in Rev. 3:10 are precise synonyms despite linguistic evidence to the contrary.  Jesus in fact informed Christians that they would have tribulation in the world.” [ pg 17]       Oh boy, talk about trying to fool us, do you think we are of low intelligence? Of course Christians will have ‘tribulation’ in this world, but if we look at Revelation 3:10 it talks about the hour of temptation  which refers to THE Tribulation.    (Revelation 3:10)  “10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.    Jacob, should know, being the self proclaimed guru of all guru’s that an ‘hour’ in the Bible, denotes a period of time.  Having “trials and tribulations” is very different from THE Tribulation, a set period of time where God pours out His judgement on the earth for a full 7 years.

Revelation 3:7, 10
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Holy One, the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open:
10 Because you have kept my admonition to endure steadfastly, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

The promise of verse 10, like all the promises to these different churches, is for every true child of God“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  This is the Lord’s own pledge to those who love His Name and seek to keep His Word – they will not be left down here to pass through the appalling tribulation that is just ahead of those who “dwell upon the earth.” This expression is found frequently in the book of Revelation. It does not simply mean those who live in the world. A careful reading of the various passages in which this peculiar term is found will make it clear that “the earth-dwellers” are in contrast to those whose citizenship is in Heaven. They are persons who, while professing to be Christians, refuse the heavenly calling. They prove by their earthly-mindedness and worldly ways that they really belong to this world. All their hopes and their treasures are here. The Lord has said, “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”  [Emphasis added]   — Dr Henry Ironside

4)  Jacob states that Pre-Tribulationsists flounder because “they equate the removal of the Holy Spirit with the removal of the church.  This is a mistaken eschatology resulting from a mistaken pneumatology; they misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, which results in a further miscomprehension of 2 Thessalonians.” [pg. 17]    We misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Spirit now do we?   No Jacob.  We understand it fine.   It’s Jacob who is making up stories here to fill pages in his book.  Jacob believes that when we say that the Holy Spirit removes the church during the Rapture, he actually thinks we mean the Holy Spirit goes forever, good-bye, and the rest of the people on earth have to make do without Him.  Nope, we know that the Holy Spirit is then poured out as God once again shifts His attention back to the salvation of Israel during the 7 year Tribulation period.

Acts 2:17
17 ‘And in the last days it will be,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out my Spirit on all people, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.5) He states 2 dangers to the Pre-Tribulationist view:

a) That we will not be prepared for the reality of the Tribulation.  Forewarned is forearmed” Jacob Prasch says [pg 19] .    Really?  What does he plan to do to hide away in a bunker in his garden from God’s judgments during the first 3.5 years of the THE Tribulation?

b) His second concern is that we (Pre-Tribulationists) won’t know who the anti-Christ and False Prophet will be, and this according to Jacob Prasch is a huge problem.   This is ridiculous because as born again Christians we will have an inkling to who it could be because the bible tells us to keep watch for the signs of the times, as it means Jesus’ return is getting closer and closer, but there is no need for us know identify him because we will be raptures right before He makes himself known to the world and the Tribulation stars.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

6)  Jacob then calls Pre-Tribulationsists false christs/prophets, deceiving the Elect.

a)  “Jesus Himself warned us of false Christs and false prophets in the Olivet Discourse, yet just as Preterists falsely teach it not longer applies to Christians because it has all (instead of partially) transpired in the events surrounding A.D. 70, Pre-Tribulationsists are left agreeing with them that it does not apply to us because we have already been raptured before the Antichrist and False Prophet become and issue.” [pg. 20]

b)  Jacob says we are not the Elect, we are false Christians, false prophets;  “The rapture and resurrestion cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation Chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth with must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect  [pg. 21]

False Christ/False Prophet, deception perpetrated against the Elect;  this is tantamount to calling us Heretics = a dissenter from established religious teaching.

7) Jacob says more and more people are fortunately turning away from the “erroneous nature of Pre-Tribulationalism and the need understand how to properly identify the final Antichrist and False Prophet – the beast of Revelation 13.” [pg. 20]    Yes more people are apostacising and turning away from Jesus Christ and focusing their attention on Satan instead. You are helping fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “…. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes …”

8)  Jacob says, “If only those who have wisdom will understand how to calculate the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18), and if it requires the true believers (whose wisdom is Christ), then who will be here with the wisdom to do the calculation?  These cannot be the tribulation saints because if they had the wisdom they would not be here either.” [pg. 19]

Revelation 13:18
18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast’s number, for it is man’s number, and his number is 666.The bible does not say we have to know, it says, let the one who has insight calculate the number.  By the time THE Tribulation starts and the Holy Spirit is poured out on the earth, people will have the wisdom to calculate the number of the beast and know who it is for sure.  Or is Jacob contradicting himself and saying that the Holy Spirit won’t be on earth during THE Tribulation?  Contradictions, galore in this book.

9)  This is a classic:   Jacob accuses Pre-tribulationists of saying that the apostasy is actually the Rapture. He says, “Some even venture so far as to identify the apostasy (apostasia) as the Rapture, not, as the context dictates, the departure from the truth when a delusional judgment comes upon those rejecting the truth they once professed. (2 Thes 2:10-11) [pg. 20]     I have never heard of this before, Jacob must have dug deep to find this nonsense to add to his book to paint us with a tarred brush.   If one looks at how Jacob Prasch has twisted the truth, one would think he is under a strong delusion. (2 Thes 2:10-11)

10)  Jacob Prasch says “that a very good translation of Laodicea is as a compound Greek term lao-dikaomai meaning  “people’s rights” or “people’s opinions”. Pre-tribulationists may have a right to their opinion, but they have no right to expect others to believe it when they themselves admit they cannot prove it with a single verse or passage by an inductive exegetical means” [pg. 21]    Jacob, Pre-Tribulationists have never denied that they cannot prove their position.  If you have found someone who has changed their eschatological view, it’s only because if you look deeper you will find that more than likely their entire doctrine is  suspect.   If we look at you with a magnifying glass, we find that you twist scripture, fellowship with men who follow doctrines of demons, insist that Christians spend their time identifying Satan, and use extra biblical manuscripts called the Midrash to interpret the bible thereby completely negating the Holy Spirit – see below:

Jacob Prasch was asked by Richard Engstrom this question:

“Can a group of sincere, literate, English speaking people in isolation from the rest of the world, come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all they have in their possession is a KJV without notes (without Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus)?”

Jacob’s answer was complicated, high-handed – but his basic reply was “NO!”

Engstrom comments:

“No matter how you slice it, his answer was NO! He denies that YOU, dear reader, can come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all you have in your possession is a KJV without notes (Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus). You be the judge. Did I misrepresent his answer or not?”

Jacob’s full answer is now given:

“The Word of God was given in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic – not Elizabethan English. I accept the infallibility of the original manuscripts in the original languages, and not the infallibility of any translation, be it KJV or otherwise. Literacy in English is not a major factor, scripture demonstrates the importance of bringing out the original meaning in the original languages (e.g. Neh. 8:8 where after the captivity most people no longer knew Hebrew so the original Hebrew meaning had to be explained ). Hence, because I believe in the priority of the original languages (I have more faith in the bible than I do in translations of it ) MY ANSWER To YOUR FIRST QUESTION IS NO.”  —http://www.apostasynow.com/articles/midrash.html

Please read this article:  MIDRASH: THE CAMEL’S NOSE

We only need Jesus Christ to understand the Bible:

Revelation 3:7-8
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Holy One, the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open:
8 ‘I know your deeds. (Look! I have put in front of you an open door that no one can shut.) I know that you have little strength, but you have obeyed my word and have not denied my name.

The Lord spoke of Himself as “…the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open” (3:7). This verse is clearly a reference to Isaiah 22:22. In that Isaiah passage he who had the key of David was the treasurer of David’s house. There it is said of Eliakim, “The key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.” The remainder of the passage shows that Eliakim was a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, the one on whom should be hung all the glory of His Father’s house. He, by His Spirit, opens the great treasure-house of divine truth, and none can shut it. On the other hand where there is perversity of spirit and an unwillingness to walk in the truth, He shuts and none can open. So He has said elsewhere, “If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness” (Matthew 6:23).

It is blessed to realize that, while Christ is said to have the key of David, there is another sense in which we see that He is the key. By the presentation of Himself to the souls of His people He opens up the treasures of His Word. Thus Christ is the key to the Holy Scriptures, and no other is needed. To understand the Bible you need only to know Christ. [Emphasis added] —  Dr Henry Ironside

The Bible is clear, no Midrash, no other extra biblical manuscripts or tools, just Jesus Christ is needed.  Jacob Prasch does not tell us the truth when he tells us that we need other tools to understand the Bible.

What is Midrash?


If we go and read about Midrash here on Moriel’s website, we can clearly see that something is very very wrong.

The Midrash definition is extremely vague, so much so that Jacob Prasch says,

Unless someone has been educated in Judaism, Hebrew, or theology, it is easier to demonstrate midrash than to explain it.”   

How peculiar, why can’t he explain it, are we not smart enough?

Strangely enough Wickipedia can explain it.

Midrash (Hebrew plural midrashim, lit. “to investigate” or “study”) is a homiletic method of biblical exegesis. The term also refers to the whole compilation of homiletic teachings on the Bible.

Midrash is a way of interpreting biblical stories that goes beyond simple distillation of religious, legal or moral teachings. It fills in many gaps left in the biblical narrative regarding events and personalities that are only hinted at. [1]

So it helps you “go beyond” teachings and “fill in the gaps” of the Bible;  that is very interesting – basically you are adding “extra biblical revelation” to the bible.  Jewish websites and others will admit Midrash is a collection of stories, allegory, history, scientific observations and legend.  Jacob claims the word Midrash is supposedly mentioned in the bible, as he claims here in this article:   What does the Word of God Actually Say About Midrash?.  But then we need to ask ourselves so is Enoch mentioned in the Bible, this does not mean we now can read the Book of Enoch as something inspired.

I went to go and look through the bible for the word “Midrash” and I can’t find it, but then after reading Jacob Prasch’s articles, the word “Midrash” does actually appear, as the word “story”  – this is what Jacob deems to be “Midrash” in the Bible.

Strong’s Number H4097 matches the Hebrew (midrash), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV (2Ch 13:22;  2Ch 24:27)

1) study, exposition, midrash, record, story
a) writings of a didactic nature
b) midrash – transliteration of the Hebrew word

Root Word (Etymology):   Hebrew (darash) – Strong’s Number H1875

meaning to resort to, seek, seek with care, enquire, require, search be it of God or of heathen Gods.

Hmmmm.  Really?  I think someone is a trying to make the Bible fit the Midrash.  Just because the word ‘story’ means Midrash, and the root of it means to ‘seek’,  it does not mean we can use stories and fables or ancient methods of study to investigate the bible.

Prasch states:

“You will never understand the Book of Revelation with the kind of limited approach to biblical interpretation that is taught in Protestant seminaries. Midrash is like a quadratic equation or a very complex second order differential equation, a thirteen or fourteen step equation. Some people take the first step of grammatical-historical exegesis and think the equation is solved”  [Emphasis added]The problem with the Reformers is that they only went so far. They made rules governing the application of their grammatical-historical system in order to refute medieval Roman Catholicism, and many of those rules are still taught in theological seminaries today.  [Emphasis added]

Jacob Prasch claims that you need to be well educated in Greek, Hebrew and a whole host of other rabbinical teachings to “truly understand scripture“.  This sounds very much like Roman Catholicism who only speak in Latin (so that you don’t understand) and tell their converts that they will never be smart enough to understand the bible; so you need to rely on specialist experts in all forms of theological studies to give you the message instead.

As I mentioned above, scripture is clear, you only need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be able to understand scripture and Christians through-out the centuries have done fantastically fine without Jacob Prasch and his Midrash.   Judging by the way Jacob has handled such simple scriptures as those mentioned at the very beginning of the article, I would say that a Reformer from a few hundreds of years ago could run circles around him and teach him a thing or two on CORRECT BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION.

But according to Prasch, it is just so terrible to think that the Reformers only went so far in their faith and could go no further without the Midrash.  It would seem Jacob Prasch is trying to take us back to the dark ages where the little people have to listen to the big people with regards to what the Bible says.  See (Galatians 4:2-12)  This is unbiblical.

Midrash and Kabbalah

And now we come to the FACT that there is a connection between Midrash and Kabbalah.  Surprise!!  Now, they say that the earlier Midrash differs from the later Medieval versions, but I mean who is pulling the wool over who’s eyes here?   These Jewish manuscripts, writings and studies are not OT Biblically inspired – this is where some of the Apocrypha (Magisterium, Canon Law, Sirach, Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Susanna) comes from.

Let’s go back to the Wickipedia definition of Midrash:


“Midrash (Hebrew plural midrashim, lit. “to investigate” or “study”) is a Hebrew term referring to the not exact, but comparative (homiletic) method of exegesis (hermeneutic) of Biblical texts, which is one of four methods cumulatively called Pardes. The term midrash can also refer to a compilation of homiletic teachings (commentaries) on the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), in the form of legal and ritual (Halakhah) and legendary, moralizing, folkloristic, and anecdotal (Aggadah) parts.”

What is Pardes?

“The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of these four approaches, which are:

eshat  – “plain” (simple) or the direct meaning.
Remez  – “hints” or the deep (allegoric) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash – from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (seek) – the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (pronounced with a long O as in gold) – “secret” (mystery) or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

Really?  “Secret, mystery, mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.”

It would seem that mysticism is denounced when it comes to other preachers who delve into it and even Jacob and his ministry are quick to label them as false teachers, but it is biblical when it comes to Midrash?  How is this possible? What stories has he spun over the eyes of those following him, that they have swallowed up the lie?  The Midrash is nothing but a very sly and sneaky way of getting believers involved in mysticism.

Multiple meanings for the Bible?

“Midrash makes heavy use of allegory and typology to illustrate and illuminate doctrine, but never as a basis for doctrine. It sees multiple meanings in Bible texts found in strata,”   [Emphasis added] — http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

  1. Using Midrash to search through the Bible to illustrate and illuminate the doctrine – instead of the Holy Spirit who illuminates.
  2. You need a Jewish Rabbi to explain Midrash to you before you can have the “secret key” that will open the door to understanding.
  3. Use Midrash to searching for “secret knowledge
  4. Using Midrash to finding “multiple meanings” in the Bible.   Apparently the only way to find God’s proper truth is if you have multiple meanings.

Gnosticism teachers that the Bible cannot be understood as it is, you need to have a “secret key” which unlocks the “hidden mysteries” in the texts.  This is EXACTLY what Jacob Prasch presents to us under the banner of Christianity.

The Bible says…

John 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You do not need to understand Hebrew or Greek, or have a degree to understand the Bible, all you need is the Holy Spirit abiding in you.   Anyone who tells you that you need to look outside of scripture in order to understand it is not telling you the truth.

John MacArthur


a)  Jacob Prasch says that Dr John Walvoord is a good man, excellent preacher and author like John MacArthur. [pg 16]

Who is John MacArthur?  A Calvinist who preaches that Jesus did not die for the whole world but for the Elect only. He preaches that you are not saved, you are CHOSEN by God before birth and that if you are Elect your children will be Elect.  John MacArthur denies the Blood of Jesus Christ and says it’s ‘just liquid’.  John MacArthur believes in a works based Salvation, called Lordship Salvation.

b) Jacob says, “Among these bretheren  are some of my closest personal friends who seek to uphold biblical truth in an age of apostasy where it is being eroded.  Among these are Dave Hunt, Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Dr David Hocking, Pastor Chuck Smith, Dr Thomas Ice, Dr Randolph Price…” [pg. 16]

I’m only going to focus on Chuck Smith.  Chuck  Smith is the founder of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa and the Jesus Movement in the 70’s that  Jacob Prasch says he belonged too in the hippie days.  See Shadows of the Beast [pg.19]

Chuck Smith close and personal friends with Jacob Prasch

Who is Chuck Smith:


Lonnie Frisbee


Chuck Smith

“Actually “the Calvary Chapel Movement was essentially spawned by Lonnie Frisbee, not Chuck Smith. It was Chuck’s embracing of Frisbee that drew the massive crowds of young hippies during the Jesus Movement…who then grew up and were Institutionalized by the opportunistic and shrewd Businessman, Chuck Smith.

Can a healthy Spirit-Led Movement of God be founded upon a man, Lonnie Frisbee, who was doing LSD and having homosexual relations with other men on Saturday…and then preaching the “real” Jesus Christ and Gospel on Sunday?

Lonnie Frisbee’s life and struggles with drugs and homosexuality is well documented. He died of AIDS as a result of his homosexual lifestyle. A very sad end I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

Kathryn Kuhlman, another Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith partner that was instrumental in the genesis of the Movement is hailed as the major influence in Benny Hinn’s life.  The hyper-Charismatic “faith healer”,


Kathryn Kuhlman

Kuhlman, was very close to Smith and very much a part of the early days of CC.

Chuck Smith intervened with a Church Discipline Process with regards to David Hawking’s Adultery and sex scandal, circumventing another Church’s Scripturally motivated disciplinary process.

The list of scandals and cover-ups in Camp Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith’s Progeny, is astounding. This site documents the tip


Chuck Smith and Rick Warren apostacising together

of the Ice Burg (but we’ll get to many others in time, and the list keeps growing as more people contact me with information).

A defense I’ve heard from some in the Online Discernment community, the supposed “Watch People” of “Sound Doctrine” and “Apostasy” etc. is, “Well, Chuck Smith is a gifted bible teacher”…and that excuses the Scandals and lack of following Scripture in dealing with sin in the Camp.

Well, what happens if Chuck Smith is preaching Heresy with regards to a Core Doctrine of the Faith? Can Chuck Smith be “wrong” and have a “wrong interpretation of Scripture” on a foundational issue like the Resurrection? Personhood? (Who the “real me” is).

I submit that Chuck Smith cannot be wrong on the Doctrine of Resurrection and be trusted as a true Prophet of God. The issue of Resurrection is key to our Faith. If one is “wrong” on the Resurrection…then others (Gnostics, Emergents, RCC, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, you name it) can be “wrong”, too, and it shouldn’t rise to the level of calling out the different “interpretation”…if we can just ignore something as serious as a Heretical View of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the Saints.”

“What does Chuck Smith say about who “we” are as “the Real Me”? What is Chuck Smith’s teaching regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection?

Chuck Smith teaches that (in his own words, see video) that “the REAL ME is spirit“…classic Gnosticism.

Chuck Smith goes on to teach a Doctrine of Resurrection of both Jesus Christ and the Saints where “your spirit LEAVES your body” and “goes into a NEW body” after you die. Classic Jehovah’s Witness Theology.

He goes on to explain that Jesus Christ had a “similar but different” body when He Resurrected. It is not the “same” Physical Body that has been Glorified, but rather the “spirit” of Jesus (and our “spirit” who is the “real me“) LEAVES our “old bodies” and then migrates to a “new body“…some Quasi-Spirit Body. This is Heresy.

I call on Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel to repent of their Heresy regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection. They cannot be “wrong” on this Core Foundational issue as the Gnostics and Jehovah’s Witnesses are. If we compromise the integrity of this Foundational Truth…then we are on a Slippery Slope and we are preaching a “different Jesus”.

There is no “old body” in the Tomb that Jesus arose from. Jesus Christ has “one” Literal Physical Earthly Body that was Glorified. We have one Literal Physical Earthly Body that is “the real us” that is Glorified.   Jesus’s “spirit” and our “spirit” does not “leave our old body” and migrate to some “new body” that is a Quasi-Spirit Body. That is JW and Gnostic and off the Reservation of Christian orthodoxy.”      [Emphasis added]    — http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=998

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14 Be you not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel?

Ephesians 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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This came from one of the OLDEST books of the bible.

Whenever I feel down…I read this and my spirit soars and my faith is renewed. I love these verses as they are the ultimate proof that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Redeemer and I rejoice with all my fellow believers.

I play this part of Handel’s Messiah…it is beautiful beyond words.

I wanted to elaborate on these verses but somebody called Joman on the website said it better than I could… Joman whoever you are thank you…

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. (KJV)

For I know that my redeemer liveth,

The word “For” means that this verse is a conclusion based on the previous verses.
Those verses are…

Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
Job 19:24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

Which is an amazing thing since these verses show that Job didn’t know that God was recording his discussion and would indeed include his words in a book, which book is, the Bible.
Job is saying here that his desire is that he not be forgotten and that he might be understood.
So, Job based his hope that his words would be written in a book on his faith in his redeemer.
Job reveals that his redeemer liveth. This is Job saying that his redeemer is God and that God lives for ever and ever, and therefore, his hope that his words be written and kept eternally can only be fulfilled by the one who lives for ever, that is Jesus Christ the redeemer.
Note that the rock he wants his words recorded on is the rock of salvation, that is, the rock is the redeemer.

and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Here Job is prophesying that the redeemer Jesus Christ will at the latter day (the end of the age) actually stand upon the earth.
By this means Job is revealing that he actually does believe that his words can be written down for all eternity since his redeemer lives for ever and even more than that, his redeemer will one day show up to set things right.
The idea of a redeemer reveals that Job recognized his need of a saviour who can pay for his sin and redeem his soul from death.

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

The worms of the grave will destroy the body of flesh.
The word “though” means that “even though his body is destroyed nevertheless”…. Job confesses that in his flesh he shall see God.
This reveals Job’s faith in the ressurection of the body of flesh.
Since Job knew the former flesh will be destroyed, it is clear that he believed that he would obtain a new body of flesh from his redeemer.

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another;

This reveals that Job had faith that one day he will indeed arise from the grave. And then he shall see God for himself.
I think that Job’s emphasis on seeing God for himself reveals that he has a great desire to know God intimately and perfectly.
The “mine eyes shall behold” I think means that Job here wants to express that his belief is that he shall have a real body with real eyes and not just some mystical or metaphysical notion of what seeing God might mean to others.
And I think the word “behold” is there to express that Job will not only see God, but will behold him, meaning that he will look upon God in a fixed and focused way so as to understand God perfectly.
And finally I think that Job by saying “and not another” means to specifically force all to understand that the resurrected Job will be the very same Job that is speaking and not some new and unrelated creature of some mystical or metaphysical existence. Very interesting.

though my reins be consumed within me.

The reins are what controls the living creature.
The conscience of a man.
The reins are what expresses that spiritual voice of the conscience that says, go left or right or straight ahead as the governor demands.
So, Job here, I think, is saying that even if he has absolutely no more personal control of anything because of death, that nevertheless, he will be redeemed, resurrected, and given a new body.

In conclusion I think Job is saying that by the power of his redeemer, by the power of the resurrection, by the literalness of his new body, that even though he can’t at this moment secure his words, by which words he is seeking to be understood and believed, express who he is, he nevertheless, believes that God will do so at the resurrection if necessary.

This show us that Job was prepared to state his case and die without obtaining any present tense resolution of all his trouble.
But, that even so, Job believed the truth of the matter concerning him would be established by God, who according to Job, cares enough to redeem him, cares enough to establish truth and cares enough to not let lies stand unchallenged.
I am amazed to see that Job expressed God’s hidden desire to write the Bible.
It seems to me at times that God, who desires on his own to do many unknown to us things, waits on doing them until a man of faith prays of him to perform it.
Apparently God likes faith so much that he loves to show how that his faithful ones are involved in all the works of God.
That sure is a lot of grace toward the faithful.

It is great to see how a man of faith so long ago knew the Bible would be written. Last edited by joman; 02-17-2010 at 02:06 PM. Reply With Quote .


This is definitely one of the strongest verses of the bible…let alone the OT.

It is sadly often neglected but it ultimately proves that a Messiah that redeems us from all sin and the resurrection is true to those that call out to Him to save them and indeed trust Him and believe this in their heart.

This however comes from a humble and broken spirit. A renewed and humble and honest heart before a holy God. We cannot justify anything. Focusing on the riches of the world and our works will never appease the power of our sins…

Truthful Conversation

This is an example of blind loyalty to Jacob Prasch:

J. Jacob Prasch, Hebrew scholar, founder of Moriel Ministries.

“Jacob has a better knowledge of the Old Testament than any teacher I know. His understanding of Jewish Midrash as taught by Jesus and the apostles in their use of biblical symbols and analogy is often scoffed at yet no one can refute it. Jacob always makes it clear that one cannot get their doctrine from Bible typology, but it is useful for a deeper understanding of the clear doctrine taught in Scripture. When Jacob preaches, no one’s head is bobbing from falling asleep. When the unction from the Holy Spirit comes upon him, the insights from his Bible studies blow people’s minds. It is common to hear collective oohs and aahs in the congregation when Jacob takes the pulpit. One thing Jacob has taught me is how to see things from God’s perspective. When righteous indignation comes up in Jacob, it is a small picture of God’s wrath toward rebellion and spiritual adultery. One just has to discern the difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of Jacob. I love the analogy of the Bible as a loaf of bread he uses. They look the same on either end; Genesis and Revelation clearly display the end from the beginning with many similarities. Jacob digs deeper.” Here is the link:

Comment: JP’s “righteous indignation” is a small picture of God’s wrath? I don’t think so!! Is she comparing JP to God?

William Saunders

Picture Jacob Prasch standing in Heaven in front of the Father seated on the throne with the Lord Jesus at the Father’s right hand, being able to see the holes in the Lord Jesus’s hands.

Jacob Prasch with his back to the Father & the Lord Jesus facing all the saints in Heaven stating the words “William Saunders is a low life not worthy of the time of day” (which is what Jacob stated in his comment).

Psalm 119:21 – “Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from Thy commandments.”

Isaiah 13:11 – “And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

Obadiah 1:3 – “The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee…”

Proverbs 8:13 – “The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.”

The proud are cursed.

The Lord will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease.

The proud are deceived.

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil which is defined with pride and arrogancy.

In order to receive grace, one must be humble –

1 Peter 5:5 – “Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

James 4:6 – “But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.”

I don’t wish anyone (even my enemies) to burn in Hell for all eternity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Jacob Prasch and those who condone his behavior or change his pride/arrogancy in to “righteous indignation” are in spiritual danger.

It’s time Jacob Prasch and his followers humble themselves, repent and fear the Lord, as we all need to do.

Going back to Proverbs 8:13, one can’t fear the Lord and accept Jacob Prasch’s behavior all at the same time.

If Jacob Prasch or anyone wants grace, it comes through humility.

All this I say in the fear of the Lord, because even when we state others are proud/arrogant, we have the potential to be proud/arrogant in the very accusation.

So, I say that the very pride/arrogancy that Jacob Prasch is displaying, I/we have the same potential.

Lord have mercy on me and rescue Jacob Prasch from his own spiritual condition.

Truthful Conversation


Yes, I do find it shocking that the writer could make such claims. I know that sometimes I have felt a ‘righteous anger’ regarding something I see, hear or read. I have known that anger to be a different anger to my human feeling of anger… but I would never presume, or say, that that anger was akin to God’s RIGHTEOUS anger/wrath.

William, I read your lovely post, and you are right, all of us can fall into pride and arrogance, even in accusing others of the same thing. I know I have done so myself. I do try to constantly be aware of the true reasons I feel certain things, and confess the sinfulness of those feelings. People can sure ‘rub us up the wrong way’, and it is only in keeping close to Jesus and in keeping a spirit of humility, that we can overcome offense, or choose not to be offended. Forgiveness of others plays a huge part in staying humble, and I know this to be true as I have had to do it so often!

We serve such a MIGHTY AWESOME GOD, every day it is a wonder to me that He loves me and that He is so tender hearted and merciful, and forgiving. Debs is RIGHT to expose Jacob, and it is hard NOT to take offence at the things he says to Debs and others. I believe, that whilst exposing the lies of Jacob’s teachings, we should also pray for him and his ministry, that the Lord would use what has happened to humble this man and all those that support him. And through that humbling we pray that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be exalted.


Related to this comment,

“When righteous indignation comes up in Jacob, it is a small picture of God’s wrath toward rebellion and spiritual adultery. One just has to discern the difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of Jacob.”

God’s wrath is HOLY…

Jacob’s wrath is FILTHY…

examine the fruit!


@ John Chingford:
I have listened to Prasch MANY times speak AGAINST the fallacies in the Pentecostal/Charismatic church! I don’t know what you are listening to, but you are wrong!


@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
Is that all you can prove is by a BLOG!!?? You are such an ignorant person it’s sad!


@ Redeemed:
Prasch doesn’t hold an Arminian theology EITHER! You people are so stupid it’s SAD! I have heard hours and hours of Prasch’s teachings, have YOU? Cause it seems like not casue your accusations are so stupid!


@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
I came out of the charismatic movement, I KNOW what the charismatic/pentecostals teach, so don’t tell me that I have not listened, have YOU??!!! There is something majorly wrong with YOU, I am sorry but there is!! Listen to Prasch’s teaching on BlogTalk radio called Devil Into Details, he CLEARLY says extreme Arminianism is false, as he ALSO says the same about Calvinism, if you knew ANYTHING about the Bible then you would know that the Truth IS in the middle. BOTH Calvinism and Arminianism twist the bible but yet they BOTH say Truths too! THAT is what Prasch says. JOhn Wesley? So what?! So if someone says they like Spurgeon then they are are a stanch 5 point calvinist in your book too??!! You are HIGHLY ignorant and judgmental! I am sorry but you are!


Leigh, you would defend and follow a man who would unleash such unholy wrath upon those who dare to question his teachings?

Have you examined his Midrash teachings and that he promotes a false Nephilim teaching? And that he winks at Calvinism?

Leigh, after you have examined these concerns, then please come back and tell us what you have discovered and if you are in agreement with Mr. Prasch or with what is written here and which is biblical.

Also, do you agree with Mr. Prasch in implying that those who suffer from the disease of epilepsy could be demon-possessed?


I find it ironic AND hypocritical that you all will admonish those in error, and rightly so, the Bible does say so, BUT yet when someone admonishes YOU, you guys can’t take it. The Bible says NO ONE is about reproof, what makes you so high and mighty that when someone challenges you, you twist it around like they are the ones who are the bad guys!!?? Was Prasch harsh (IF that was even him who commented)? Yeah he was, but you guys ARE indeed slandering, however, I find it funny, that in one of your comments DEB you you point out that you are human and that it hurt your feelings the way he reacted, well, how come YOU get a free pass when someone says something about you for you to react poorly, but yet when Prasch does it, he is pinned as enemy #1, you guys are straight up hypocrites! Name calling? Gimme a break, there are far WORSE names that could be said on this thread than these, you just WANT intense confrontation so you can use more ammo to fuel your agenda of slander and hypocrisy! GOOD LUCK!


Leigh, exactly where has anyone slandered anyone here? There has been an exposure of false teaching, documenting and showing from the Word of God. This is slander? Would you accuse the Apostle Paul of slandering false teachers?

Midrash has clearly been shown here as a false method of interpreting scripture. It has been clearly shown that Mr. Prasch tolerates the false teaching of Calvinism amd supports ecumenicals.

It has been proven ethat Jacob Prasch did indeed comment here and carried on such a horrific ungodly rant. John Chingford has received vile e-mails from Mr. Prasch.

Leign, you are the one who is being hypocritical and not facing facts. Deborah has the courage for the sake of those who are being misled to expose false teaching. Hopefully you will come to realize that you are falling into the trap of idolizing man.


Leigh, even if you weren’t a JP follower…even if you just showed up here to give us a piece of your mind…which you have, I’ll give you that. The Holy Spirit does not act in the way you do. Even if you were right on every point and Debs was wrong on every point (which she is not), but let’s just say she was…YOU would still be wrong because you are reacting out of anger, you are responding with your flesh and the Holy Spirit is grieved. Name calling does not benefit the listener. I beg you. Ask Christ’s forgiveness and then come back and ask Deb’s forgiveness before you say anything more.


You twisted scripture: Not Prasch.
Consult a Greek dictionary before going apostia on the body… would ya?
2 Thessalonians
1 Ἐρωτῶμεν δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, ὑπὲρ τῆς παρουσίας τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡμῶν ἐπισυναγωγῆς ἐπ’ αὐτόν
1Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him

The coming of our Lord AND our gathering up….. THAT DAY WILL NOT COME ____________________________ and ____________________________________________

Paul said “a falling away” and “Man of sin be revealed”

so argue with Paul because he didn’t say 3.5 years yada yada….. he said a falling away and the man of sin be revealed.



elissa wrote:

You twisted scripture: Not Prasch.
Consult a Greek dictionary before going apostia on the body… would ya?
2 Thessalonians
1 Ἐρωτῶμεν δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, ὑπὲρ τῆς παρουσίας τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡμῶν ἐπισυναγωγῆς ἐπ’ αὐτόν
1Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him
The coming of our Lord AND our gathering up….. THAT DAY WILL NOT COME ____________________________ and ____________________________________________
Paul said “a falling away” and “Man of sin be revealed”
so argue with Paul because he didn’t say 3.5 years yada yada….. he said a falling away and the man of sin be revealed.

Elissa, your snide and snarky comments smack of arrogance, and not a sincere desire to speak truth.


From: http://www.seekgod.ca/jpupdate.htm

From Jacob’s own mouth, such about three-quarters down the page, I thought an excerpt would be order:

Jacob Prasch of Moriel also states that Christians today are bound by the thinking of the Reformers, and that we must shed any hindrances to exegesis we have assimilated from their teachings, and embrace the much more accurate Jewish thought, found not only in the Midrash, but in the Talmud.

“The problem with the Reformers is that they only went so far. They made rules governing the application of their grammatical-historical system in order to refute medieval Roman Catholicism, and many of those rules are still taught in theological seminaries today. One such rule is this: There are many applications of a Scripture but only one interpretation. That is total rubbish! The Talmud tells us there are multiple interpretations. Who did Jesus agree with? The Reformers? Or the other rabbis? …” 15.

Although Jacob would have us believe that Jesus agreed with the rabbis, it is a matter of Scriptural fact that Jesus spoke often against the Rabbis who were referred to at that time as the Pharisees.

In his scathing rebuke to the Rabbis and Pharisees, Jesus warned his disciples not to follow their pernicious and hypocritical ways Matthew 23:6-8

” And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.”

….According to the Scriptures, Jacob P. has it wrong. Whose disciple will you be? Who will you believe? If JP can destroy your faith in the Scriptures, what will you have left? That’s right Midrash, Kabbalah, Talmud and Jacob Prasch…(rolling eyes)


[delete – you are just as rude as Prasch – not surprising.]


I have yet to find a verse of scripture that says word for word that Jesus will return before the tribulation (pre tribulation). That’s becuase the teaching of pre tribulation is a deception. If you can find the verses or verse then please show me where it is.
However in Matt 24:29-31 we read this “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does anyone suppose this might mean that Jeus meant He would come after the tribulation?

2Thess 2:1-14 the context in verse 1 is His coming and our gathering together. This is one event not two. Verse 8& 9 tells us “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,”

The same brightness mentioned in Matt 24:27-28 is surly connected to His coming to destroy Satan. The tribulation is Satan at work (under the Lords control of cause) that’s why we read in Revelation 13 and veres 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Anyone who believe christians are not menat to suffer and will not go through tribulation don’t read the scripture.

When will our resurrection be?

The reason we need to know this is that rapture (the gathering together to meet the Lord) can not happen until after resurrection, so when is resurrection?
Martha knew the answer
In John 11:24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Did she agree with Jesus?
In John 6:39-40 Jesus said
“This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

And again
“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John6:54)
So we know that any one who is part of the body of Christ, both Old and New Testament believers will be raised up on the last day. Not any time before the last day.

So that resurrection day must be after the tribulation after the man of lawlessness has been revealed and after the falling away.

Lastly what about us not being appointed to wrath, firstly as mentioned before tribulation is not Gods wrath it’s the working of Satan under Gods dirrection but look at Rev 6:12-18 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Here we sea exactly the same words describing cosmic colamity the sun and moon being darkened just as in Matt 24 and it’s call here in Rev 6 “the great day of His wrath”

So we can conclude Jesus comes after tribulation, it is the last day , it is the day of wrath and he will resurrect His people and gather them to Himself to save them from His wrath.

This is the biblical view it’s post trib but pre wrath. it’s a fact.


Nigel Wright


Nigel, why did you choose to comment against a pretrib rapture on this thread?

Have you even read the many comments on this site giving BIBLICAL support to Christ’s return prior to the Tribulation?

There is no need to rehash this. Every statement you make here has been explained fully if you will just take the time to look into it. You are not rightly dividing the Word, taking verses out of context.

If you take the time you will be blessed and have peace and assurance as never before. But that of course is your choice.


I now see why Nigel posted here – sorry I was thinking this was on another topic. It is early in the a.m. here, so please excuse. Haven’t had my first cup of java yet. :-) But I’m crystal clear on the eschatology – it is emblazoned into my heart and mind and I am awaiting my Lord and Savior’s return. It is my Blessed Hope and it is my heart’s desire that others share that blessing and don’t get ensnared in false teaching regarding end times.

Some downplay it’s importance, and it is certainly not essential to salvation, but it DOES speak to rightly dividing the Word and right understanding of God’s plan for this world.

Would love your thoughts, please comment.x