Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

Shadows of the Beast- Jacob Prasch

Shadows of the Beast:  Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

So I bought the book, “Shadows of the Beast” by Jacob Prasch and didn’t really make it past the Prologue.  I was kinda horrified at a number of things.  I will begin to list them in this article.  To start off with, Jacob Prasch is anti Pre-Tribulational rapture and bases his whole ‘idea‘ on the premise that Jesus won’t come back and Rapture the church until the anti-Christ makes himself known in the middle of the Tribulation.  He uses this verse as his only backup:  (2 Thessalonians 2:3)  “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

The problem is, Jacob is not telling us the truth, because if you go and read from the beginning of the chapter you find out that Paul is speaking to the Thessalonians, not about the Rapture, but about ‘the day of the Lord’.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1  Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2  not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
3  Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Talking of pre-tribulationists, Jacob Prasch says, “They must also fail to draw due distinction between the Great Tribulation and “the Day of the Lord” which are distinct time periods.”  [pg. 17]     Well I beg to differ.

What exactly is “the day of the Lord'”?  The day of the Lord is The Tribulation made up of two parts;  The Tribulation being first 3.5 years and the Great Tribulation being last 3.5 years, totaling 7 years from start to finish plus Jesus’ Second Coming!

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So what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is saying is this: The Tribulation aka “the day of the Lord” will not start until the apostasy comes first, and Jesus’ Second Coming (when He sets foot on earth) will not take place until after the anti-Christ has been reveal.

Another way to look at it is that, the Antichrist will be revealed before ‘the day of the Lord’ (or Tribulation stars) but can only be revealed right after the time of the Rapture.

Jacob Prasch says, “The Rapture and Resurrection cannot happen until the “man of lawlessness” is revealed. [pg. 22]   Then he quotes (2 Thessalonians 2:3) “Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the apostasy come first, and the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction.”    He is saying that the word, “it” is the Rapture and Resurrection only.   This is FALSE.  As shown above, it is “the Day of the Lord” which encompasses The Tribulation and Jesus’ Second Coming.

Regarding the Rapture

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
1 Now on the topic of times and seasons, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you.
2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come in the same way as a thief in the night.
3 Now when they are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will surely not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the darkness for the day to overtake you like a thief would.
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

Paul says: (1 Thessalonians 5:1)“But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.”  The word time here in Greek means chronos (khron’-os) in which we get the English word chronology.  So, of the general chronology, of this particular time Paul says that no one needs write about it because they have ALREADY been instructed: 1) concerning the general time when Jesus said He would come and 2) concerning the particular time.  So the general time CAN be known, but not the actual time. And this is a FANTASTIC message.

In (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3) Paul says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Time of Jacob’s trouble

It is IMPORTANT to note that the whole 7 year Tribulation period (also known as “Time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7) is considered a time of JUDGEMENT from God, not just the last 3.5 years which some seem to think.   Judgments will be poured out on earth as the seven-sealed scrolls are opened consecutively by the Lamb.  Judgments of the Seals, Trumpets and plagues GROWS IN INTENSITY, until you reach 2nd half of the tribulation, namely the Great Tribulation which lasts for another 3.5 years, where God’s Wrath is finally poured out IN FULL on mankind.  If Jacob Prasch thinks that the first half of The Tribulation is not part of God’s wrath on earth, then I do not know what bible he is reading.  Maybe he should stop reading extra-biblical books like the Midrash and pay attention to the Word of God alone to get a clue.

So how does the Rapture of the church relate to “the Day of the Lord” which happens before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ by 7 years?  We know that “the Day of the Lord” will come suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night, in other words, The Tribulation starts suddenly and unexpectedly.  And the Rapture of the church MARKS the end of ‘the day of Grace’ and simultaneously MARKS the beginning of the ‘the day of the Lord’.  As soon as the church is removed, the Antichrist is revealed and the trials and tribulations of this world begin in all earnest, the birth pangs are over, the birth begins, and no one can escape it.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

Paul tells the born again believers to be alert and sober, to watch for Jesus!

Looking for Satan

We are not to look for Satan as Jacob Prasch want us too, we do not have to identify the him and his False Prophet! Jacob deliberately writes a book twisting scripture trying to cheat saints out of the Blessed Hope. The Bible tells us we are look towards Jesus Christ only and comfort one another with the message that He will return.    (1 Thessalonians 4:1-18)  “15 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-18

1  Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2  For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3  For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4  That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5  Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6  That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7  For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9  But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10  And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11  And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12  That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jacob Prasch mentions many ideas and mis-conceptions in his book that make it sound like Pre-tribulationsists are a bunch of false teachers that need to be dealt with urgently.  I am going to list them and answer them:

1) He makes the statement that “The patriarch of Pre-Tibulationism, Dr. John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary admitted there is no stated biblical passage overtly teaching a Pre-Tribulational position.  Walvoord states, that “the Rapture is between the lines”. [pg. 16]     So because Dr John Walvoord changes his view now we must all fall down and beg for forgiveness because a so called patriach of Pre-Tribulationism says so?  I think not.  Walvoord can change his mind, but the Word of God stays the same.

2) Jacob states that Pre-Tribulationists are against identifying the anti-Christ and this is a BIG problem.  This is news to me, I had no idea that we were against identifying the anti-Christ because the bible tells us that  (1 Thessalonians 5:6) “we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.”    However the bible also does tell us not to focus our attentions on evil things, but to focus our attentions on Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:1-4
1 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory.

3) Jacob states; “The Greek term for “tribulation” (thelipsis) and the eschatological testing in Rev. 3:10 are precise synonyms despite linguistic evidence to the contrary.  Jesus in fact informed Christians that they would have tribulation in the world.” [ pg 17]       Oh boy, talk about trying to fool us, do you think we are of low intelligence? Of course Christians will have ‘tribulation’ in this world, but if we look at Revelation 3:10 it talks about the hour of temptation  which refers to THE Tribulation.    (Revelation 3:10)  “10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.    Jacob, should know, being the self proclaimed guru of all guru’s that an ‘hour’ in the Bible, denotes a period of time.  Having “trials and tribulations” is very different from THE Tribulation, a set period of time where God pours out His judgement on the earth for a full 7 years.

Revelation 3:7, 10
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Holy One, the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open:
10 Because you have kept my admonition to endure steadfastly, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

The promise of verse 10, like all the promises to these different churches, is for every true child of God“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  This is the Lord’s own pledge to those who love His Name and seek to keep His Word – they will not be left down here to pass through the appalling tribulation that is just ahead of those who “dwell upon the earth.” This expression is found frequently in the book of Revelation. It does not simply mean those who live in the world. A careful reading of the various passages in which this peculiar term is found will make it clear that “the earth-dwellers” are in contrast to those whose citizenship is in Heaven. They are persons who, while professing to be Christians, refuse the heavenly calling. They prove by their earthly-mindedness and worldly ways that they really belong to this world. All their hopes and their treasures are here. The Lord has said, “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”  [Emphasis added]   — Dr Henry Ironside

4)  Jacob states that Pre-Tribulationsists flounder because “they equate the removal of the Holy Spirit with the removal of the church.  This is a mistaken eschatology resulting from a mistaken pneumatology; they misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, which results in a further miscomprehension of 2 Thessalonians.” [pg. 17]    We misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Spirit now do we?   No Jacob.  We understand it fine.   It’s Jacob who is making up stories here to fill pages in his book.  Jacob believes that when we say that the Holy Spirit removes the church during the Rapture, he actually thinks we mean the Holy Spirit goes forever, good-bye, and the rest of the people on earth have to make do without Him.  Nope, we know that the Holy Spirit is then poured out as God once again shifts His attention back to the salvation of Israel during the 7 year Tribulation period.

Acts 2:17
17 ‘And in the last days it will be,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out my Spirit on all people, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.5) He states 2 dangers to the Pre-Tribulationist view:

a) That we will not be prepared for the reality of the Tribulation.  Forewarned is forearmed” Jacob Prasch says [pg 19] .    Really?  What does he plan to do to hide away in a bunker in his garden from God’s judgments during the first 3.5 years of the THE Tribulation?

b) His second concern is that we (Pre-Tribulationists) won’t know who the anti-Christ and False Prophet will be, and this according to Jacob Prasch is a huge problem.   This is ridiculous because as born again Christians we will have an inkling to who it could be because the bible tells us to keep watch for the signs of the times, as it means Jesus’ return is getting closer and closer, but there is no need for us know identify him because we will be raptures right before He makes himself known to the world and the Tribulation stars.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

6)  Jacob then calls Pre-Tribulationsists false christs/prophets, deceiving the Elect.

a)  “Jesus Himself warned us of false Christs and false prophets in the Olivet Discourse, yet just as Preterists falsely teach it not longer applies to Christians because it has all (instead of partially) transpired in the events surrounding A.D. 70, Pre-Tribulationsists are left agreeing with them that it does not apply to us because we have already been raptured before the Antichrist and False Prophet become and issue.” [pg. 20]

b)  Jacob says we are not the Elect, we are false Christians, false prophets;  “The rapture and resurrestion cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation Chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth with must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect  [pg. 21]

False Christ/False Prophet, deception perpetrated against the Elect;  this is tantamount to calling us Heretics = a dissenter from established religious teaching.

7) Jacob says more and more people are fortunately turning away from the “erroneous nature of Pre-Tribulationalism and the need understand how to properly identify the final Antichrist and False Prophet – the beast of Revelation 13.” [pg. 20]    Yes more people are apostacising and turning away from Jesus Christ and focusing their attention on Satan instead. You are helping fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “…. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes …”

8)  Jacob says, “If only those who have wisdom will understand how to calculate the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18), and if it requires the true believers (whose wisdom is Christ), then who will be here with the wisdom to do the calculation?  These cannot be the tribulation saints because if they had the wisdom they would not be here either.” [pg. 19]

Revelation 13:18
18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast’s number, for it is man’s number, and his number is 666.The bible does not say we have to know, it says, let the one who has insight calculate the number.  By the time THE Tribulation starts and the Holy Spirit is poured out on the earth, people will have the wisdom to calculate the number of the beast and know who it is for sure.  Or is Jacob contradicting himself and saying that the Holy Spirit won’t be on earth during THE Tribulation?  Contradictions, galore in this book.

9)  This is a classic:   Jacob accuses Pre-tribulationists of saying that the apostasy is actually the Rapture. He says, “Some even venture so far as to identify the apostasy (apostasia) as the Rapture, not, as the context dictates, the departure from the truth when a delusional judgment comes upon those rejecting the truth they once professed. (2 Thes 2:10-11) [pg. 20]     I have never heard of this before, Jacob must have dug deep to find this nonsense to add to his book to paint us with a tarred brush.   If one looks at how Jacob Prasch has twisted the truth, one would think he is under a strong delusion. (2 Thes 2:10-11)

10)  Jacob Prasch says “that a very good translation of Laodicea is as a compound Greek term lao-dikaomai meaning  “people’s rights” or “people’s opinions”. Pre-tribulationists may have a right to their opinion, but they have no right to expect others to believe it when they themselves admit they cannot prove it with a single verse or passage by an inductive exegetical means” [pg. 21]    Jacob, Pre-Tribulationists have never denied that they cannot prove their position.  If you have found someone who has changed their eschatological view, it’s only because if you look deeper you will find that more than likely their entire doctrine is  suspect.   If we look at you with a magnifying glass, we find that you twist scripture, fellowship with men who follow doctrines of demons, insist that Christians spend their time identifying Satan, and use extra biblical manuscripts called the Midrash to interpret the bible thereby completely negating the Holy Spirit – see below:

Jacob Prasch was asked by Richard Engstrom this question:

“Can a group of sincere, literate, English speaking people in isolation from the rest of the world, come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all they have in their possession is a KJV without notes (without Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus)?”

Jacob’s answer was complicated, high-handed – but his basic reply was “NO!”

Engstrom comments:

“No matter how you slice it, his answer was NO! He denies that YOU, dear reader, can come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all you have in your possession is a KJV without notes (Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus). You be the judge. Did I misrepresent his answer or not?”

Jacob’s full answer is now given:

“The Word of God was given in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic – not Elizabethan English. I accept the infallibility of the original manuscripts in the original languages, and not the infallibility of any translation, be it KJV or otherwise. Literacy in English is not a major factor, scripture demonstrates the importance of bringing out the original meaning in the original languages (e.g. Neh. 8:8 where after the captivity most people no longer knew Hebrew so the original Hebrew meaning had to be explained ). Hence, because I believe in the priority of the original languages (I have more faith in the bible than I do in translations of it ) MY ANSWER To YOUR FIRST QUESTION IS NO.”  —http://www.apostasynow.com/articles/midrash.html

Please read this article:  MIDRASH: THE CAMEL’S NOSE

We only need Jesus Christ to understand the Bible:

Revelation 3:7-8
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Holy One, the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open:
8 ‘I know your deeds. (Look! I have put in front of you an open door that no one can shut.) I know that you have little strength, but you have obeyed my word and have not denied my name.

The Lord spoke of Himself as “…the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open” (3:7). This verse is clearly a reference to Isaiah 22:22. In that Isaiah passage he who had the key of David was the treasurer of David’s house. There it is said of Eliakim, “The key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.” The remainder of the passage shows that Eliakim was a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, the one on whom should be hung all the glory of His Father’s house. He, by His Spirit, opens the great treasure-house of divine truth, and none can shut it. On the other hand where there is perversity of spirit and an unwillingness to walk in the truth, He shuts and none can open. So He has said elsewhere, “If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness” (Matthew 6:23).

It is blessed to realize that, while Christ is said to have the key of David, there is another sense in which we see that He is the key. By the presentation of Himself to the souls of His people He opens up the treasures of His Word. Thus Christ is the key to the Holy Scriptures, and no other is needed. To understand the Bible you need only to know Christ. [Emphasis added] —  Dr Henry Ironside

The Bible is clear, no Midrash, no other extra biblical manuscripts or tools, just Jesus Christ is needed.  Jacob Prasch does not tell us the truth when he tells us that we need other tools to understand the Bible.

What is Midrash?

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If we go and read about Midrash here on Moriel’s website, we can clearly see that something is very very wrong.

The Midrash definition is extremely vague, so much so that Jacob Prasch says,

Unless someone has been educated in Judaism, Hebrew, or theology, it is easier to demonstrate midrash than to explain it.”   

How peculiar, why can’t he explain it, are we not smart enough?

Strangely enough Wickipedia can explain it.

Midrash (Hebrew plural midrashim, lit. “to investigate” or “study”) is a homiletic method of biblical exegesis. The term also refers to the whole compilation of homiletic teachings on the Bible.

Midrash is a way of interpreting biblical stories that goes beyond simple distillation of religious, legal or moral teachings. It fills in many gaps left in the biblical narrative regarding events and personalities that are only hinted at. [1]

So it helps you “go beyond” teachings and “fill in the gaps” of the Bible;  that is very interesting – basically you are adding “extra biblical revelation” to the bible.  Jewish websites and others will admit Midrash is a collection of stories, allegory, history, scientific observations and legend.  Jacob claims the word Midrash is supposedly mentioned in the bible, as he claims here in this article:   What does the Word of God Actually Say About Midrash?.  But then we need to ask ourselves so is Enoch mentioned in the Bible, this does not mean we now can read the Book of Enoch as something inspired.

I went to go and look through the bible for the word “Midrash” and I can’t find it, but then after reading Jacob Prasch’s articles, the word “Midrash” does actually appear, as the word “story”  – this is what Jacob deems to be “Midrash” in the Bible.

Strong’s Number H4097 matches the Hebrew (midrash), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV (2Ch 13:22;  2Ch 24:27)

1) study, exposition, midrash, record, story
a) writings of a didactic nature
b) midrash – transliteration of the Hebrew word

Root Word (Etymology):   Hebrew (darash) – Strong’s Number H1875

meaning to resort to, seek, seek with care, enquire, require, search be it of God or of heathen Gods.

Hmmmm.  Really?  I think someone is a trying to make the Bible fit the Midrash.  Just because the word ‘story’ means Midrash, and the root of it means to ‘seek’,  it does not mean we can use stories and fables or ancient methods of study to investigate the bible.

Prasch states:

“You will never understand the Book of Revelation with the kind of limited approach to biblical interpretation that is taught in Protestant seminaries. Midrash is like a quadratic equation or a very complex second order differential equation, a thirteen or fourteen step equation. Some people take the first step of grammatical-historical exegesis and think the equation is solved”  [Emphasis added]The problem with the Reformers is that they only went so far. They made rules governing the application of their grammatical-historical system in order to refute medieval Roman Catholicism, and many of those rules are still taught in theological seminaries today.  [Emphasis added]

Jacob Prasch claims that you need to be well educated in Greek, Hebrew and a whole host of other rabbinical teachings to “truly understand scripture“.  This sounds very much like Roman Catholicism who only speak in Latin (so that you don’t understand) and tell their converts that they will never be smart enough to understand the bible; so you need to rely on specialist experts in all forms of theological studies to give you the message instead.

As I mentioned above, scripture is clear, you only need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be able to understand scripture and Christians through-out the centuries have done fantastically fine without Jacob Prasch and his Midrash.   Judging by the way Jacob has handled such simple scriptures as those mentioned at the very beginning of the article, I would say that a Reformer from a few hundreds of years ago could run circles around him and teach him a thing or two on CORRECT BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION.

But according to Prasch, it is just so terrible to think that the Reformers only went so far in their faith and could go no further without the Midrash.  It would seem Jacob Prasch is trying to take us back to the dark ages where the little people have to listen to the big people with regards to what the Bible says.  See (Galatians 4:2-12)  This is unbiblical.

Midrash and Kabbalah

And now we come to the FACT that there is a connection between Midrash and Kabbalah.  Surprise!!  Now, they say that the earlier Midrash differs from the later Medieval versions, but I mean who is pulling the wool over who’s eyes here?   These Jewish manuscripts, writings and studies are not OT Biblically inspired – this is where some of the Apocrypha (Magisterium, Canon Law, Sirach, Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Susanna) comes from.

Let’s go back to the Wickipedia definition of Midrash:

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“Midrash (Hebrew plural midrashim, lit. “to investigate” or “study”) is a Hebrew term referring to the not exact, but comparative (homiletic) method of exegesis (hermeneutic) of Biblical texts, which is one of four methods cumulatively called Pardes. The term midrash can also refer to a compilation of homiletic teachings (commentaries) on the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), in the form of legal and ritual (Halakhah) and legendary, moralizing, folkloristic, and anecdotal (Aggadah) parts.”

What is Pardes?

“The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of these four approaches, which are:

eshat  – “plain” (simple) or the direct meaning.
Remez  – “hints” or the deep (allegoric) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash – from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (seek) – the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (pronounced with a long O as in gold) – “secret” (mystery) or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

Really?  “Secret, mystery, mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.”

It would seem that mysticism is denounced when it comes to other preachers who delve into it and even Jacob and his ministry are quick to label them as false teachers, but it is biblical when it comes to Midrash?  How is this possible? What stories has he spun over the eyes of those following him, that they have swallowed up the lie?  The Midrash is nothing but a very sly and sneaky way of getting believers involved in mysticism.

Multiple meanings for the Bible?

“Midrash makes heavy use of allegory and typology to illustrate and illuminate doctrine, but never as a basis for doctrine. It sees multiple meanings in Bible texts found in strata,”   [Emphasis added] — http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

  1. Using Midrash to search through the Bible to illustrate and illuminate the doctrine – instead of the Holy Spirit who illuminates.
  2. You need a Jewish Rabbi to explain Midrash to you before you can have the “secret key” that will open the door to understanding.
  3. Use Midrash to searching for “secret knowledge
  4. Using Midrash to finding “multiple meanings” in the Bible.   Apparently the only way to find God’s proper truth is if you have multiple meanings.

Gnosticism teachers that the Bible cannot be understood as it is, you need to have a “secret key” which unlocks the “hidden mysteries” in the texts.  This is EXACTLY what Jacob Prasch presents to us under the banner of Christianity.

The Bible says…

John 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You do not need to understand Hebrew or Greek, or have a degree to understand the Bible, all you need is the Holy Spirit abiding in you.   Anyone who tells you that you need to look outside of scripture in order to understand it is not telling you the truth.

John MacArthur

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a)  Jacob Prasch says that Dr John Walvoord is a good man, excellent preacher and author like John MacArthur. [pg 16]

Who is John MacArthur?  A Calvinist who preaches that Jesus did not die for the whole world but for the Elect only. He preaches that you are not saved, you are CHOSEN by God before birth and that if you are Elect your children will be Elect.  John MacArthur denies the Blood of Jesus Christ and says it’s ‘just liquid’.  John MacArthur believes in a works based Salvation, called Lordship Salvation.

b) Jacob says, “Among these bretheren  are some of my closest personal friends who seek to uphold biblical truth in an age of apostasy where it is being eroded.  Among these are Dave Hunt, Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Dr David Hocking, Pastor Chuck Smith, Dr Thomas Ice, Dr Randolph Price…” [pg. 16]

I’m only going to focus on Chuck Smith.  Chuck  Smith is the founder of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa and the Jesus Movement in the 70’s that  Jacob Prasch says he belonged too in the hippie days.  See Shadows of the Beast [pg.19]

Chuck Smith close and personal friends with Jacob Prasch

Who is Chuck Smith:

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Lonnie Frisbee

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Chuck Smith

“Actually “the Calvary Chapel Movement was essentially spawned by Lonnie Frisbee, not Chuck Smith. It was Chuck’s embracing of Frisbee that drew the massive crowds of young hippies during the Jesus Movement…who then grew up and were Institutionalized by the opportunistic and shrewd Businessman, Chuck Smith.

Can a healthy Spirit-Led Movement of God be founded upon a man, Lonnie Frisbee, who was doing LSD and having homosexual relations with other men on Saturday…and then preaching the “real” Jesus Christ and Gospel on Sunday?

Lonnie Frisbee’s life and struggles with drugs and homosexuality is well documented. He died of AIDS as a result of his homosexual lifestyle. A very sad end I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

Kathryn Kuhlman, another Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith partner that was instrumental in the genesis of the Movement is hailed as the major influence in Benny Hinn’s life.  The hyper-Charismatic “faith healer”,

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Kathryn Kuhlman

Kuhlman, was very close to Smith and very much a part of the early days of CC.

Chuck Smith intervened with a Church Discipline Process with regards to David Hawking’s Adultery and sex scandal, circumventing another Church’s Scripturally motivated disciplinary process.

The list of scandals and cover-ups in Camp Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith’s Progeny, is astounding. This site documents the tip

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Chuck Smith and Rick Warren apostacising together

of the Ice Burg (but we’ll get to many others in time, and the list keeps growing as more people contact me with information).

A defense I’ve heard from some in the Online Discernment community, the supposed “Watch People” of “Sound Doctrine” and “Apostasy” etc. is, “Well, Chuck Smith is a gifted bible teacher”…and that excuses the Scandals and lack of following Scripture in dealing with sin in the Camp.

Well, what happens if Chuck Smith is preaching Heresy with regards to a Core Doctrine of the Faith? Can Chuck Smith be “wrong” and have a “wrong interpretation of Scripture” on a foundational issue like the Resurrection? Personhood? (Who the “real me” is).

I submit that Chuck Smith cannot be wrong on the Doctrine of Resurrection and be trusted as a true Prophet of God. The issue of Resurrection is key to our Faith. If one is “wrong” on the Resurrection…then others (Gnostics, Emergents, RCC, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, you name it) can be “wrong”, too, and it shouldn’t rise to the level of calling out the different “interpretation”…if we can just ignore something as serious as a Heretical View of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the Saints.”

“What does Chuck Smith say about who “we” are as “the Real Me”? What is Chuck Smith’s teaching regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection?

Chuck Smith teaches that (in his own words, see video) that “the REAL ME is spirit“…classic Gnosticism.

Chuck Smith goes on to teach a Doctrine of Resurrection of both Jesus Christ and the Saints where “your spirit LEAVES your body” and “goes into a NEW body” after you die. Classic Jehovah’s Witness Theology.

He goes on to explain that Jesus Christ had a “similar but different” body when He Resurrected. It is not the “same” Physical Body that has been Glorified, but rather the “spirit” of Jesus (and our “spirit” who is the “real me“) LEAVES our “old bodies” and then migrates to a “new body“…some Quasi-Spirit Body. This is Heresy.

I call on Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel to repent of their Heresy regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection. They cannot be “wrong” on this Core Foundational issue as the Gnostics and Jehovah’s Witnesses are. If we compromise the integrity of this Foundational Truth…then we are on a Slippery Slope and we are preaching a “different Jesus”.

There is no “old body” in the Tomb that Jesus arose from. Jesus Christ has “one” Literal Physical Earthly Body that was Glorified. We have one Literal Physical Earthly Body that is “the real us” that is Glorified.   Jesus’s “spirit” and our “spirit” does not “leave our old body” and migrate to some “new body” that is a Quasi-Spirit Body. That is JW and Gnostic and off the Reservation of Christian orthodoxy.”      [Emphasis added]    — http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=998

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14 Be you not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel?

Ephesians 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Andy

I don’t believe in the “perseverance of the saints”. That is works for salvation, which doesn’t save.

I believe in the preservation of the saints. The Bible teaches that, since I have believed in Jesus as Savior, then Jesus keeps me and never lets go, and I will be in heaven. :)

Redeemed

Calvinism twists the truth not only in eternal security. This is another subtle, yet drastic difference between the TULIP of Calvinism and the Bible. It presents a warped concept of the depravity of man. Washer is speaking PARTIAL truth. Yes, with the fall of Adam, mankind is born without understanding of the things of God.

However, God in His grace creates man with the freedom to choose and with a conscience. Mankind has the God-given ability to choose to do right or choose to do wrong, even in an unconverted state. Calvinists would chalk that up to the “common grace” of God. Oh, God chooses who will be a murderer and who will only tell a lie or who will become a Hitler?

Yes, Calvinists believe God creates some people only to send them to hell with no opportunity to be saved. Yes, man is born with the propensity to sin, that is true. But there is hope for every single person on this planet because Christ died for ALL, not just for those He hand-picked. Yes, He knows who will choose Him because He knows the beginning from the end. But this does not negate the free will of man. Washer ignores the passage that says He is not willing for any to perish.

Calvinism carries the depravity of man to the EXTREME and yes, they do believe that some are condemned to hell even as they are born. That 18 mo. old child is grasping for something shiny that his little mind wants. He is a BABY! That is what ALL babies do – even those who are ELECT!! So I suppose Washer would say that elect babies will not cry and they will not throw tantrums, etc. How ridiculous!! I suppose he would say they are in their unregenerate state until they are old enough to understand. If God has chosen them, why wait? They would be a dream child for the parents! But woe to the parents who have a child who is not chosen – they will have to deal with a little monster!

Of course this is ridiculous, but Total Depravity is ridiculous carried to the Calvinist extreme.

Interesting on how this has morphed into a discussion on Calvinism. But there is a connection because Jacob Prasch on the one hand eschews Calvinist doctrine while at the same time embraces those who hold to it like MacArthur, Mike Gendron and others.

John Chingford

Paul Washer does not come right out and say that babies who die go to hell, but he certainly implies it. When he says babies show evidence of their sin when the parent says “no” and the baby fights against the parent. He may be correct that babies are showing evidence of their sinful nature, but DOES THE BABY KNOW what they are doing or is it simply acting out of sinful instinct? Are they actually accountable for their actions if they haven’t reached the age of knowing good from evil?

Please read this, Isaiah 7:14-16:

“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.”

Wow! It is referring to Jesus. It is NOT saying that Jesus had a sinful nature. The rest of scripture confirms that Jesus was not born into sin. However, it is saying that (GENERALLY SPEAKING FOR ALL children) there is an age in which they become accountable for their sin. “For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good”

Michael

We all have our opinions or experiences about the God of the bible…this is a natural call of man. But we can never know Him until we listen to what He says. What He says must be believed…mankind is always dodging Him because we are sinful creatures…the flesh is against Him…the flesh took over in the Garden of Eden.

True obedience and faith is really a simple and honest thing…in everyone’s heart there is the knowledge of good and evil. The power of sin came over man when she/he took initiative over this.

This is a mystery and cannot be understood with the carnal mind because it is contaminated by the first disobedience by man.

We try to explain God…we cannot with limited tools of the brain or mind.
The cleverer we become the more we tend to move away because really all we see is an iota of His magnificience,sin starts puffing itself up here.
Simple obedience to those hearts that are seeking the pure at heart are those that the Holy Spirit (God) responds too. I believe all mankind has the ability to know this even the insane. But even what I’ve said here is severely flawed because God is God and He cannot be understood…until He represented man and related to us. That is why the Word (everything He wanted to give to us in instruction) became flesh, that’s why the written Word must be obeyed. There are no additions or subtractions to it

Michael

And…that is why God had to send His Son to die for these complex and many sins because He loved His creation, knew the problem of self will and it’s sinful nature and the severe remedy of the Christ dying for our sins.

vincent holloway

Hi, not in regard to any Author in particular.
We have the Scriptures-Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, if He is “The Author and finisher of our faith” Why bother to read a book by anyone else?

I agree with your article, but wonder how much money you spend on “opinion” books and if you get to refund them?

Colin Ford

I know not what Paul Washer said. I have never listened to his sermon, or read any of his works.
Reading 2 Samuel 12.23 David said ‘I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me’. I understood this to say that his son had NOT perished.
Read what the sweet Psalmist of Israel said in Psalm 58.3.
In Romans 9.13, cited from Malachi 1.3, Paul says God hated Esau, and of course this is written in Genesis 25.23. Clearly God said ‘The elder shall serve the younger’.
We know the story well. Esau had the freewill to choose his destiny, which clearly he did, yet this was fore ordained when the two babies are still in Rebekah’s womb!
We can go round in circles!

Redeemed

I think one can reasonably assume that the reason most watchers buy books by false teachers is so they can use them as a resource. I know someone who has such books in their library and has them marked “For Research Purposes Only!” For nstance, that is why Deborah purchased Jacob Prasch’s book that is the topic of this thread.

There are other sources or commentaries that could be considered “opinion” books but can be useful study tools, but one must be careful. And in most cases if not all, those books can’t be found in “Christian” bookstores because they must make a profit and operate by the law of “supply and demand”.

There are trusted Bible teachers’ material available, but most likely the expositor has gone to his/her reward.

Colin Ford

I have always believed that the reason most folk buy so-called Christian books is because they find it easier reading, and in their opinion the sacred passages are too hard, or rather too dry and dusty!
They put their trust in the guru, because he ‘has it all figured out’, and some tragically will not depart from his/her teachings thereafter. This is the danger especially in light of the Saviour’s eternal words in Matthew 24.4. So in effect these books replace the Word.
Redeemed has it just about right, in his second paragraph in comment no 190.
I don’t know why Deborah ‘picked on’ Shadows of the Beast, but she certainly is correct to highlight Jacob’s apparent double speak , or moot point regarding the pre-trib rapture teachers/brethren,(if indeed plain English means anything anymore). Maybe some know they are false teachers in this regard, so don’t take offence? When I purchased this book over a year ago, I showed those pages to my wife, and she said she couldn’t understand why he gets invites to so many pre-trib churches!
It must be his personality!?
In many ways Shadows of the Beast is an excellent book.

Andy

God foreknew what Esau would do, which is why God declared what Esau would do. Esau had perfect free will just like everybody else does. God’s foreknowledge is the key. That is another reason why Calvinism is totally false.

Redeemed

Re: 189

This is correct, we could go round in circles searching for examples of some who were ordained to carry out a particular task or part in history such as Judas who would betray our Lord Jesus. It is kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg.

But the bottom line is that God in His foreknowledge knows who will be receptive to his gift of salvation and who will not. He knows the end from the beginning. This does not negate the free will of man. We tend to place limits on God and think of Him in human terms.

We see example after example of people who exercised their free will and there was no divine hand pulling the strings as with a marionette. God does LEAD, but only those who desire to be led of Him.

Yes, children are born with original sin, but it is only when they reach a stage of development that the conscience kicks in and they become accountable. All children are under grace until the age of accountability. But Reformed doctrine places a babe from birth either in the camp of the elected bound for heaven or the unatoned-for and bound for hell with no hope of redemption. The latter is so out of character for our God of compassion and mercy, offering the gift of salvation to everyone who will surrender to Him.

A babe in arms is helpless and needs constant care. As they develop, they need parents who will raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Reformed doctrine says that a Christian parent who loves their child and raises them to respect the things of the Lord and teaches they the way of salvation may be doing so in vain because thata child may not be amongst the elect. It would break the heart of any Christian parent to think that their precious child is consigned to hell.

If even a HUMAN parent loves their child that much, how much MORE does our heavenly Father love each of His creations? The Bible tells us that He knits each one in the womb – did He do so just to consign them to hell? That is not the character of our sovereign God! He COULD have created mankind without free will if He so chose, but He chose to allow mankind the freedom to either accept or reject Him. He wants us to serve Him out of LOVE, not because we have no other choice!

Doesn’t Joshua 24:15 makes it abundantly clear?

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Redeemed

Andy, I notice that yours and my comments arrived at exactly the same time and said exactly the same thing. Talk about a meeting of the minds. You stated so much in just a few words. Great comment.

Colin Ford

Andy and Redeemed,
I agree with you both.
FOREKNOWLEDGE IS THE KEY.
My understanding of this great theological controversy of the ages known as Predestination vs. Freewill, or Calvinism vs. Arminianism:
The Lord died for the whole of humankind, but only the foreordained (elect) or those who came to repentance and faith will be saved (babies/infants are out of the equation here, being before the age of accountability).
However the result is the same. The elect are saved, not by any merit or good in themselves.
I have NEVER ONCE called myself a Calvinist (though I believe the five points are straight out of the pages of Holy Writ).
However there are some that seem to be awfully proud of themselves that they have become Calvinists.
All these labels can be a big turn off. Also we must try not to become blinded by our cherished doctrine(s)whatever they are.
I hope that any comments I have made here are not antagonistic, that is NOT the spirit in which they are intended. A little while back, I believe Redeemed quoted a relevant Scripture; ‘Iron sharpeneth Iron’ Proverbs 27.17; What is the point of me finding a blog site where we are all in perfect agreement? However would we learn anything? The fundamental unification of Christianity is the atonement, faith and repentance toward the Saviour, and obedience to His Word.
This Calvinism vs Arminianism so called does tend to cause division in the body of Christ. Should we be surprised? Even in NT times the apostles had their disagreements, some quite heated?
Salvation belongeth unto the Lord; Psalm 3.8, Revelation 19.1, we cannot come to faith except the ‘Father draw him’ John 6.44. How can we come to repentance unless God through His Holy Spirit does this great work in us by granting us this repentance; Acts 11.18?
Obviously there is much wrong with parts of ‘Reformed theology’ as it is called, especially A-millennialism and replacement theology. They stopped reforming once they got the Pope out of their system.
Going back to the subject matter of the book in question, I do agree that the pre-tribulation rapture cannot be expounded in any shape or form from the pages of Scripture. It is that other ‘ism’ by the name of Dispensationalism that is responsible for the pre-trib teaching.

Andy

Redeemed, thank you. I received from the Lord the point of foreknowledge way back when I first got saved, it was as clear as day to me. We have perfect free will, and because the Lord knows what we will freely choose to believe, He elects based on that. It is simple, as you said. :)

It takes fifty thousand chapters in some “calvinist commentary” for them to try to explain away and reject that simplicity.

Paul (Continue in His Word)

Debs,
Referring to your comments 87, 129, 140 and 158 about Andrew Murray, I would like to sound the alarm about him.
I have many of his books, and after reading your comments I did a little bit of research on him, and I am devastated by what he taught and believed, and I ask the question: Did he have the Holy Spirit?

Murray taught that when someone gets saved, the person DOES NOT receive the Holy Spirit, but rather the person experiences EXTERNAL operations of the Holy Spirit to bring him to salvation. Then the person subsequently needs to receive the Holy Spirit (what he calls the full blessing)

Consider these few quotations from his book “The Full Blessing of Pentecost”
Chapter #1 How it is to be taught.> (this book is public domain. Just Google it)

The first quotation which follows, is the WHOLE thesis of his book:

“In these chapters it is my desire to bring to the children of God the message that there is a TWOFOLD Christian life. The one is that in which we experience something of the operations of the Holy Spirit, just as many did under the old covenant, BUT DO NOT YET RECEIVE HIM as the Pentecostal Spirit, as the personal indwelling Guest, concerning whom we know that He has come to abide permanently in the heart. On the other hand, there is a more abundant life, in which the indwelling just referred to is known and the full joy and power of redemption are facts of personal experience. It will be only when Christians come to understand fully the distinction betwixt these two conditions, and discern that the second of these is in very deed the will of God concerning them, and therefore a possible experience for each believer.

“There are two ways in which the Holy Spirit works in us. The first is the preparatory operation in which HE SIMPLY ACTS ON US BUT DOES NOT YET TAKE UP HIS ABODE WITHIN US, though leading us to conversion and faith and ever urging us to all that is good and holy. The second is the higher and more advanced phase of His working WHEN WE RECEIVE HIM AS AN ABIDING GIFT, AS AN INDWELLING PERSON, concerning whom we know that He assumes responsibility for our whole inner being, working in it both to will and to do. This is the ideal of the full Christian life.” [DTW Note: REALLY??????]

“THE SUPREME NEED of the Christian life is TO RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, and when we have it, to be conscious of the fact and live in harmony with it.”

There are many others like that in that little booklet.

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY:

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Gal_4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

etc…

This is devastating. If his doctrine of salvation and of the Holy Spirit are so completely wrong and heretical, I fear he was wrong on everything else.

Redeemed

Colin, you said:

The Lord died for the whole of humankind, but only the foreordained (elect) or those who came to repentance and faith will be saved (babies/infants are out of the equation here, being before the age of accountability).

Colin, I do appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue with those with whom you obviously disagree. You do so with respect and a Christ-like spirit.

This statement seems quite contradictory. If Christ died for the whole of mankind, but He foreordained who would be saved, that doesn’t add up. Also, babies/infants ARE in the equation, because babies/infants do grow up and if they are not foreordained to be saved, they are lost from birth because it is all cut and dried and they were consigned to hell from the womb.

Balanced dispensational teaching is an important key to rightly dividing the Word. Have you ever read any of the commentaries of H.A. Ironside? If not, I think you would find them quite interesting.

Debs, I never can get the hang of doing block quotes, so maybe you wouldn’t mind fixing this.

Andy

To me there’s no “controversy”. It’s simple. God knows who will freewill choose to believe, and those that choose to believe, are called the elect from before creation. But they still had to choose to believe by free will. So Calvinism is totally off. The false doctrine of Calvinism seeks to reject believing in Jesus Christ for salvation, and seeks to do an end-run avoiding the Gospel, and that is what makes Calvinism so dangerous and damnable heresy.

Colin Ford

Redeemed,
At least someone is awake around here!
I was actually referring to infant mortality! If you remember, several comments ago, that was the thread of the conversation regarding a Mr Washer’s sermon?
I understand where you are coming from as regards the word FOREORDAINED, but what I was trying to convey is that it is the same result.
When I seriously started to study the bible, it became obvious to me that in God’s economy, what will happen in the future has already happened in eternity. It must have done, because all the prophets have prophesied about events that will happen in the future,many already having come to pass. So God knows who will come to faith and repentance.
Without the Holy Spirit doing a divine work of repentance in anyone it is impossible to be saved, salvation belongeth to God.
I quoted John 6.44 in my above comment, because the Saviour says clearly that ‘No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him’. The text is a plain declaration of man’s natural corruption and helpless impotence. Man is dead in sin. He cannot come to Christ, except the Father draws him.
This is but a very simple exposition, and yes I have freewill to decide whether I want to walk or cycle home…
Harry Ironside, yes I have read some of his works, obviously not everything he teaches is wrong, of course not! But I am utterly opposed to dispensational teaching-it separates Israel from the Church and teaches another gospel as regards salvation. They believe that the OT saints could be saved by keeping the law..

John Chingford

Hi Colin

You “almost” have it but have left out a vital component. Yes, no one can come to the Jesus unless the Father draws him. But the Father draws everybody through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. “The Holy Spirit will convict the world concerning righteousness, sin and judgement” “many are called but few are chosen”. The Bible generally tends to understate to extremes sometimes. Example, (after Jesus was resurrected) it says “they saw the Lord and were glad. I should imagine they were MUCH MORE than simply glad!!!!

Therefore, when it says “many are called” I am sure it is referring to EVERYBODY “For God so loved the world that WHOSESOEVER ………” “It is not God’s will that ANYBODY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance”

Many (everybody) is called but most resist the Holy Spirit and willingly (freewill) reject Christ. However, God wants to give everybody a chance to hear the gospel and therefore come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is another way of saying that they are (with the conviction) being drawn to Jesus, BUT not all will accept Christ under that conviction but will harden their hearts. Without the work of the Holy Spirit it would be IMPOSSIBLE for ANYBODY to come to Jesus at all.

John Chingford

Colin

How were the OT saints saved? Before you reply, please look at my article entitled “Why God Required Animal Blood Sacrifice, In The bible?” Please go to:

[removed]

It may possibly change your mind regarding dispensationalism once you grasp that subject, ie that there was a different dispensation given in the OT for the Jews as opposed to the church (including Jews) in the NT

Colin Ford

Hello John,
Hope you are well.
I have just read that article on your Last Days Watchman site. Essentially there is nothing there that I am in disagreement with.
The subject of Dispensationalism, and it’s teachings as I understand it, drives a wedge between Law and Grace. It teaches that the Gospel Jesus preached is not the same as the one that Paul taught; the gospel of the kingdom as opposed to grace! One destiny for the church and one for Israel. Dispensationalists teach that much in the Lord’s Olivet discourse and other places in Scripture is not for the Church and only for unbelieving Jews. It rips the heart out of the gospel message, and it is this which is behind J.N.Derby’s teaching (the so-called father of Dispensationalism). Simply and bluntly put, Derby and his followers, Schofield, Chafer, CH Mackintosh,W Kelly,A Gaebelin,Ironside and many others believed and taught this system of theology in order to perpetrate the so-called pre tribulation rapture theory, which of course is inextricably linked with Dispensationalism.
As we know Dipensationalism spread like wildfire in America and across the western hemisphere because of Scofield’s reference bible, and the Dallas Theological Seminary.
The first president of this seminary was Lewis Sperry Chafer, in his eight volume ‘Systematic Theology’ he quotes;
‘Whatever may have been the divine method of dealing with individuals before the call of Abraham and the giving of the law by Moses, it is evident that, with the call of Abraham and the giving of the law and all that has followed, THERE ARE TWO WIDELY DIFFERENT, STANDARDIZED, DIVINE PROVISIONS, WHEREBY MAN, WHO IS UTTERLY FALLEN, MIGHT STAND IN THE FAVOUR OF GOD’. Emphasis mine.
This is an amazing statement. First it recognizes the difficult question that Dispensationalism must answer with regard to the pre Abrahamic saints. To what BODY do these redeemed people belong? Chafer certainly implies here that he is not sure how these people came to stand in the favour of God. Second, however, Chafer IS sure that since the time of Abraham there have been TWO ways that fallen man could come to a right standing with God.
This is the core belief that is behind Dispensational theology that prior to the cross salvation came by obedience to the law. This is obviously error! Men in EVERY dispensation were always saved by grace through faith in the atoning blood of Christ the Saviour. OT saints believingly looked forward to the cross, NT saints look back to the cross.
So as to your question; ‘How were the OT saints saved?’ Clearly, according to Dispensationalism it was by the blood of bulls,goats etc’.
1 Peter 1.10-13 is a plain NT declaration that the OT prophets believed salvation came alone by grace and not works, and ONLY through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is much confusion in Dispensational theology.

John Chingford

Hi Colin

You didn’t read the key part of my article properly. I didn’t say that the blood of animals saved OT saints. These are some of my key excerpts of what I said:

“This blood has always been a representative and forerunner to the death of the Messiah, which would result in an everlasting covenant to eternally forgive our sins.”

“the examples I have given were leaving a principle, foreshadow and precursor in the Abrahamic covenant BEFORE the Law was given by God to Moses. The New Testament shows that the Law was just a shadow (symbolic) of the things to come (in Jesus).”

“The blood was to be used for only one purpose and that was to atone for our sins. To use it for other purposes would be to dilute the power of what the blood represents.”

“As the whole sacrificial system was to serve as a temporary measure until the total fulfilment in Jesus, God would not allow abuse of the blood as it would empty it of its power before Jesus was sacrificed for us.”

The whole point was that OT saints were saved by looking forward to and in believing in the blood of JESUS everytime there was a blood sacrifice. Jesus said “Abrahan SAW my day and rejoiced”. Hebrews 11 makes this clear. So, OT saints were truly saved, only if they had faith in God. Their observance of the Law was practiced out of their faith in God.

The true saints knew a Saviour would come and their faith was in this Saviour, but for the meantime they needed the sacrificial system until all things werte fulfilled.

Therefore, you are almost correct. However, Paul makes it clear in Romans that God gave a dispensation to the Jews that they could be saved by the sacrificial system by combining faith AND works of the Law. However, Paul’s point was that the purpose of the law was to show them that they were sinners who needed salvation via the blood. The OT dispensation is wholly different because Jesus HAS NOW DIED in complete FULFILMENT and salvation has been opened up to ALL men (not just by becoming Jews) but for all who receive Jesus. IT IS COMPLETELY different now.

Redeemed

Hey Colin,

I don’t consider myself a Bible scholar, just a sinner saved by grace who has walked with the Lord some 55 years. I am still learning. I find dispensational theology quite easy to underestand and clear. On the other hand I find Reformed theology convuluted and confusing.

God is the same and never changes, but His method of dealing with mankind differs from time to time, dispensation to dispensation. This does not create a conflict of any kind, rather it smoothes it out and fits together seamlessly.

A dispensation merely refers to God’s method of dealing with mankind to carry out His purposes. There is really nothing ocmplicated about it and as I say I am not an “accomplished” Bible scholar or authority.

Michael

John commented…The true saints knew a Saviour would come and their faith was in this Saviour….

There is absolutely no doubt about that, Job despite his severe trials and testings spoke out:

Job 19:25-27

25 For I know that my REDEEMER liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Colin Ford

John,
I didn’t say that YOU believed that the OT saints were saved by the blood of bulls and goats! No I don’t believe that for a moment.
But what I am trying to demonstrate is, that it IS the faulty system of Dispensational theology which requires it.
Dispensationalism does indeed drive a wedge the size of Africa between law and grace and divides the second advent into two separate comings, amongst many other things.
It is very difficult sometimes to articulate the faulty aspects of Dispensational theology without causing offence to those that adhere to it’s doctrines, an obvious failing of Jacob Prasch’s! And I am sure I have come very close.

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