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When will the Rapture Happen?

Icon Warthog Icon75 When will the Rapture Happen?

WhenWillTheRaptureHappen When will the Rapture Happen?When will the Rapture Happen?

By Vernon Grey

[Please note: We are not setting a date. This is just a ‘guestimate‘.  As Christians you are to be ready for Jesus’ return at any moment.]

With all the hype surrounding 2012, it seems like everyone has an opinion of when the Rapture will take place and Tribulation will begin.

Theories abound. Some are plausible and Biblically well thought out;  and others are simply not worth exploring.

[NOTE: Just so that we are clear at the outset, this writer is unashamedly premillennial and pretrib in doctrine.]

The Rapture

No one seems to understand that the rapture is signless.

As a result there is not one single sign that is be given whereby we can predict to the day and the hour when the Rapture will happen.

(Except perhaps for the sounding of a trumpet.)

Check it out for yourself. Nowhere in Scripture are we given any hint as to when the Rapture will take place. Any speculation as to the timing of the rapture can only be worked backwards seven years or so from when the Second Coming event.

If we can guestimate the timing of the Second Coming by current historic events and by what the Bible teaches us, then we may be able to come up with a ‘year time period’ for the Rapture. Once we have the Second Coming pegged, we can work backwards seven years at least to the Rapture event.

I see someone nodding in agreement because they have read in

Matthew 24: 36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

The problem with this verse is that Jesus was not talking about His Second Coming.

Jesus had just said in the previous verse  Matthew 24:35   Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away,”  He was emphasizing or reinforcing what He had just said in Matthew 24:33 which says: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.”

Why would Jesus confuse us by saying that we CAN KNOW  the season of His return in verse 33 and then tell us that no man knoweth, no not even the angels…?”

In verse 36. If you read the passage carefully, you will see that the “No man knoweth” verse has to do with Heaven and earth passing away, not the Second Coming because He had already told us in verse 33 that we can indeed know.

Anyone can work out 3.5 years from the time that the Antichrist declares himself as God in the Holy of Holies. A 1260 day count is not difficult for most of us.

Ok ok, Jesus did not tell us the exact day and hour. What He did tell us is that there would be certain signs for us to see that His return is imminent.

On what we call Palm Sunday Jesus entered into Jerusalem as the Jewish Messiah. They missed it, and paid a high price for doing so.

Matthew 23:37-38  

37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! “

38  “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Jesus expected the children of Israel to know that He was Messiah and that this was the time prophesied by the Prophet Daniel that their Saviour would make His appearance on the earth.

Luke 19:39–44  

39 “And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.”

40 “And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.”

41 “And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, saying,”

42If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.”

43 “For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,”

44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.”

The suggestion here is that the Jews should have known that He was the Messiah. His Arrival was prophesied to the very day by Daniel.

Before that day, whenever His disciples tried to make Him King, He rejected the idea saying “My time is not yet come.”

But on this day He arranged it. He sent for the donkey.

Why this particular day? What made Him change His mind on this day?

Because that precise day was prophesied by Gabriel to Daniel

Daniel 9: 25    Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. The Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360 day year; 69 weeks of 360 day years equals 173,880 days.

This decree was given in 445BC (Nehamiah 2: 5–8  &  Nehamiah 17,18)

In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be exactly 173,880 days.

God gave Israel the precise day on which their Saviour would come through the Golden Gate of Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 44:1–3)  

The Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent sealed off the Golden Gate in 1541. It remains sealed up to this day and a muslim grave yard was placed at it’s entrance.

The precision of this prophecy has been the focus of many an attack by Bible Haters on the authenticity of the Book of Daniel.

We have not answered the question of when will the Rapture occur; but we must first lay more evidence on the table.

If we accept as most scholars do that the budding of the Fig Tree in Matthew 24 is the rebirth of Israel in 1948. And if we accept that a generation is 70 years (80 at the most) then in 2018, Israel will be 70 years old. This generation must see all those things spoken of by Jesus at the Olivet Discourse.

Imminence

Paul believed that the Rapture could happen in his lifetime. He says so in:

1Thessalonians 4: 15–17  

15 “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.”

16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”

17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Thewe” spoken of here includes the writer of the passage. Paul held to the doctrine of imminence.

Paul however did not have the benefit of the history we have today. In particular the fact that Israel was reborn as a nation after nearly 2000 years of global dispersion.

In 2018 Israel will be 70 years old. The final generation of the world as we know it is already grey and teetering on the edge of eternity.

Truly the Rapture is close at hand. Are you prepared? Are you still playing Churchianity?                                                                                         

I am sure that you have seen a list of “Signs of the Second Coming.”

I would like to put forward my own list and extract the emotion and hype from it, giving you the bare bones of what is happening right now as you read this.

Biblical Signs of the last days 

  1. It is not generally known that the great apostasy of the church is the single most spoken of sign of the end times in the Bible. Apostasy is mentioned in more books of the Bible and more times than any other sign.   (2 Timothy 4:3-5)
  2. Re-establishment of Israel in May 14th 1948.  (Isaiah 66:7-8)
  3. Reclamation of the land of Israel.  (Ezekiel 36:34-35)
  4. Revival of Biblical Hebrew.  (Zephaniah 3:9; Jeremiah 31:23)  After centuries of slumber where it was strictly a liturgical and written language, Hebrew was literally reborn nearly a century ago in its original birthplace. Eliezar Ben Yehuda led the rebirth of Hebrew as a spoken language.
  5. The opening up of the Bible and the understanding of Bible prophecy.  (Daniel 12:8-9)  Very important.
  6. Regathering of the Jews.  (Isaiah 11:10-12)
  7. Re-occupation of Jerusalem.  (Luke 21:24)
  8. Resurgence of the Israeli military.  (Zechariah 12:6)
  9. Re-focusing of world politics on Israel.  (Zechariah 12:3)
  10. Arab threat to Israel.  (Ezekiel 35 and 36)
  11. Increasing instability of nature. Weather patterns are changing rapidly.  (Matthew 24:7 & Luke 21:11)
  12. Increasing lawlessness and violence.  (Matthew 24:12)
  13. Increasing immorality.  (Matthew 24:37)
  14. Increasing materialism.  (2 Timothy 3:2)
  15. Increasing Hedonism.  (2 Timothy 3:4)
  16. Increasing influence of Humanism.  (2 Timothy 3:2)
  17. Depraved entertainment.  (2 Timothy 3:4)
  18. Calling evil good and good evil.  (2 Timothy 3:3 & Isaiah 5:20)
  19. Increasing use of drugs.  (2 Timothy 3:3)
  20. Increasing blasphemy.  (2 Timothy 3:2)
  21. Increasing paganism. (Wicca etc.)  (2 Timothy 3:1-4)
  22. Increasing despair.  (2 Timothy 3:1)
  23. Signs in the heavens.  (Luke 21:11,25)
  24. Increasing knowledge, internet etc.  (Daniel 12:4)
  25. Computer technology.  (Revelation 13:7)
  26. Increasing travel.  (Daniel 12:4)
  27. The explosion of cults.  (Matthew 24:11)
  28. Increasing occultism.  (1 Timothy 4:1)
  29. The proliferation of false christs.  (Matthew 24:5)
  30. Increasing attacks on Jesus the Bible and Christianity.  (Romans 1:18-19)
  31. Increasing persecution of Christians particularly in the east and middle east.  (Matthew 24:9)
  32. Wars and rumors of wars.  (Matthew 24:6)
  33. Weapons of mass destruction.  (Luke 21:26)
  34. Increasing famine.  (Luke 21:11)
  35. Increasing pestilence and new diseases.  (Luke 21:11)
  36. Television.  (Revelation 11:8-9)
  37. Satellite technology.  (Revelation 11:8-9)
  38. Unification of Europe.  (Daniel 2 & 7)
  39. Far Eastern military powers or Kings of the East.  (Revelation 9:16 & 16:12)
  40. Movement toward world government and one world monetary system.  (Daniel 7:23-26)
  41. Move towards a cashless society. (Revelation 13:16-17)
  42. Denial of the Rapture and Second Coming.  (2 Peter 3:3-4)
  43. Denial of creation by God.  (Romans 1:18-22)
  44. Translation of the Bible into many languages.  (Matthew 24:14)

Obviously this list could be expanded, but the examples above should be sufficient to show that we are living in the season of the Lord’s return.

Finally

The Bible clearly teaches that God never pours out His wrath without warning for He is a just and loving God who does not wish that any should perish.

2 Peter 3: 9    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

That’s why He has provided so many signs to alert us to the fact that we are living on the threshold of the Rapture and for the mankind; the Tribulation.

Hopefully this will be of some comfort to those who are eagerly waiting for their Lord and Saviour to return for them.

James 5: 7-8  

7  “Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.”

8  “Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.”

                

pixel When will the Rapture Happen?

129 comments to When will the Rapture Happen?

  • Angela

    Thank-you Debra for once again giving us a very factual and uplifting article. I look forward to these articles! I am wondering if in the article you are saying that the trib should start at Isreals 70 years? I am not versed in this area, I would appreciate your insight. Thanks again for telling it like it is.
    Angela

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Angela

    >> I am wondering if in the article you are saying that the trib should start at Isreals 70 years?

    That is what we are ‘guessing’ :) That is if a generation equates to 70 years and not a little bit longer.
    The Rapture is the catalyst to start the Tribulation.

  • Michael

    Many years ago after I got saved I was invited to go and see a Christian group called the “Living Sound” which toured South Africa. It was before Christian music became contaminated by the commercial scene…these were just young people who genuinely loved the Lord and were out to serve Him through their talents…Terry Law was their evangelist and told the gospel message as it was written in the scriptures.
    My favourite song when I was young relates to the above topic…you know what…I was hoping for His expected return and even more so today. Christian brothers and sisters are you excited…the big question , are you ready?..It won’t be long.
    “It won’t be long
    Till we’ll be leavin’ here
    It won’t be long
    We’ll be goin’ home

    It won’t be long
    Till we’ll be leavin’ here
    It won’t be long
    We’ll be goin’ home

    Count the years as months
    Count the months as weeks
    Count the weeks as days
    Any day now
    We’ll be goin’ home

    It won’t be long
    Till we’ll be leavin’ here
    It won’t be long
    We’ll be goin’ home

    It won’t be long
    Till we’ll be leavin’ here
    It won’t be long
    We’ll be goin’ home

    Count the years as months
    Count the months as weeks
    Count the weeks as days
    Any day now
    We’ll be goin’ home

    We shall be like Him
    We shall be like Him
    We shall be like Him
    Any day now
    We’ll be goin’ home

    We shall be like Him
    We shall be like Him
    We shall be like Him
    Any day now
    We’ll be goin’ home

    It won’t be long
    It won’t be long
    It won’t be long
    We’ll be goin’ home

    It won’t be long
    It won’t be long
    It won’t be long
    We’ll be goin’ home”

  • Michael

    I’ve googled The Living Sound and cannot find the original 1972 group. Also Terry Law who appears to be alive today but gone the way of the WOF teachings…what amazes me is that these guys way back preached differently…the way of the cross and the repentance and salvation aspect…now it’s the Benny Hinn style…praise and worship emphasis instead…I guess it has to do with his background of the Oral Roberts University which is not a safe grounding.
    Looking back there has definitely been a gradual moving away from the truth by teachings that appeal to the flesh. When you look back and even hear guys like Billy Graham old evangelical cruscades…he now preaches another gospel…this is frightening…even the so-called elect have gone down the wrong road…another indicator of the end times. There definitely is a falling away…very evident to those who are older.

  • Angela

    Deborah, thank-you for answering my question. I have always equated the Rapture as happening days before the Tribulation.
    “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (II Thess. 2:7-8).
    I understand this passage to mean that when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (we who have the Holly Spirit in us will be RAPTURED), Then simaltaniously the devil is thrown down. Would that then be the Tribulation? Or do you think there can be a time in between the removing of the church and the start of the Tribulation? Thanks again for clearing my confusion.
    Angela

  • Michael

    Sorry…slightly off topic,but here is an example of how Billy Graham’s preaching and outlook has changed…he now claims Mormons are saved…so different from this…if it’s ok to paste Debs…take a look @ this.

  • Angela

    Oh I think you already answered my question, I am sorry. Have a blessed day, and I will keep looking up!

  • Vincent

    Interesting Calculation, there’s still lots too be done! Each day to reach unsaved souls.

  • Chris

    With regards to the rapture we need to distinguish between God’s wrath and the wrath of Satan.

    What I most certainly know is that God will take away the obedient saints before His wrath is poured out on this planet.

    Many faithful Christians are already facing extreme tribulation (Wrath of Satan) in our time as in past history. The world is under the rule of Satan at the moment and Satan’s rule will clearly be defined and manifested when the power of the Holy Ghost is removed according to 2 Thess 2:7-8 (I believe that 2 Thess 2 is speaking of the power of the Holy Ghost and not the Holy Ghost as such). The victorious church will be raptured who has the power of the Holy Ghost. (Just my opinion) I do believe that 2 Thess.2 is not addressing the church directly but more indirectly as the church is normally addressed as SHE and the Holy Ghost as HE.

    Why do I say that I believe it is the Power of the Holy Ghost that will be take out the way and not the Holy Ghost – In the vision John had in Rev. 7 we read: Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    If the Holy Ghost is not here during the tribulation why are so many people saved during the tribulation? The purpose of the tribulation is there t0 chastise people for them to have a last chance to repent and seek God. I do not see salvation to these people without the working of the Holy Ghost and God directly reaching out finally while the Church has been taken away and with that the preaching by the Church.

    It is possible for believers to enter into PART of Satan’s wrath as is the case with many believers at the moment or are some of us so special that it will not happen to us? But God’s wrath I am positive no obedient and set apart saint will see.

    What is clear though is: Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    The word for temptation here is “Pirasmos” which means solicitation or discipline. This discipline can only come because God allows it to come.

    The fact remains that MANY Christians are already facing persecution and tribulation and if one looks at the thrust of the world towards Marxist Socialism promoted globally – the time is not far off.

    In South Africa currently the strikes on the mines and now the farms are here to institute the same Marxist Socialist order where the only limited prosperity will be to take away from those who have to give to those who do not have – this is the beginning then the same fate will befaal them as Zimbabwe and the world will face famine. (Could this Marxist Socialist order be the prosperity that the prosperity preachers are preaching – quite possible?)

    Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    This agrees with the Scriptures where Paul wrote about the rapture to the Thessalonians:

    1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

    I believe that this time of prosperity will be short lived and is going to catch the undiscerning totally off guard.

    The Lord also warned us that they will kill us and think that they are doing God a favour.

    I am just very careful to totally exempt believers of Satan’s wrath.

    Again it needs to be emphasised that we need to distinguish between God’s wrath and that of Satan.

    Come Lord Jesus and may we be found worthy to escape all these things that WILL come to pass.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> If the Holy Ghost is not here during the tribulation why are so many people saved during the tribulation?

    We the the church with the Holy Spirit abiding in us are holding back the anti-Christ.

    When the church leaves, yes we leave with the Holy Spirit (IN US), but the Holy Spirit still remains to start fresh speaking to those left behind. BECAUSE The Holy Spirit is omnipresent – Present everywhere simultaneously.

    I have no doubt that we will face some form of persecution and wrath, but not those 7 years. If the church remains for the first 3.5 years according to Jacob Prasch, then he believes in partial replacement theology. Because the entire 7 year period’s FOCUS is on Israel and NOT on the church.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    Please read: The church will not be doing any preaching during the tribulation because there are 144,000 supernaturally empowered men who do the evangelizing during the WHOLE TRIBULATION period.

    Who are the 144,000?

    In Revelation 7, we are introduced to a special group of believers who are called “the servants of our God” (Revelation 7:3). They are sealed by God for ministry before the 7th seal is opened. This number is exact of a certain group of people – the Jews, 12,000 from 12 tribes (Rev.7:4).

    Some people claim that we do not know who they all are. It does not matter, God does.

    The tribe of Dan is excluded (Revelation 7:6) and Manasseh who is one of the sons of Joseph takes his place.)

    The 144,000 are not sealed to become Israel but are sealed OUT OF Israel. The Bible tells us these men from the 12 tribes of Israel who will be evangelists to the world during the Tribulation period.

    The genealogical background of the 144,000 is Hebrew Rev. 7 tell us clearly that they will be totally Jewish in origin because they are called “children of Israel”. The scripture tells us plainly that there will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

    The importance of the number 12 is a consistent one. In Mt.10:2 Jesus picks 12 men that will be evangelists to Israel (in contradistinction, Jesus seals 12,000 men from 12 tribes to go to the world). Acts 1:21-26, the 11 apostles recognize that Judas must be replaced to keep this consistent number of 12.

    Matt 19:28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

    In heaven the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles are recognized. Rev. 21:12-14: “Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

    Of the New Jerusalem the number is kept as its theme:

    “The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel” (Rev. 21:16-17).

    The 144,000 will be saved men that will give faithful witness to Jesus Christ- they are His Jewish witnesses in the Tribulation period.

    These are later referred to (Revelation 14:4) as the “firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”. They will be the first to come to Christ as Saviour in the Tribulation period.

    It will be these evangelists that will go throughout the world preaching the gospel fulfilling what Jesus said “and then the end will come.”

    Rev 7:9: After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands” These are those saved by the ministry of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists from without the world as the witness to every nation and people.. The white robes ands palm branches speak of salvation.

    Rev. 7:13-14 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

    This is a future people that are saved during the great tribulation. This is not taking place now.

    In Rev. 14 we see them in a vision with the Messiah on the mount when he returns.

    They are sealed for ministry and protection throughout the tribulation period:

    In Rev. 9:1-4 the bottomless pit is open and this demonic force are told not to touch those who are sealed Rev 9: 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”

    And they are also virgins (this should be taken literally):

    Rev. 14:4-5: “These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

    So we learn that they are all males, they are unmarried (virgins) and they speak only truth (no deceit in their mouth).

    The 144,000 Jews appear to be on the earth throughout the complete tribulation period as they are sealed for doing ministry. Being sent throughout the world they might be in the city of Petra (Bozrah) when Israel flees at the second half of the Tribulation (Rev.12), and be influential in leading Israel into their repentance (Zech.12:9-14); then they will call upon Jesus to come back (Mt.23:39; Zech. 13:9; Hosea 5:15; Rom.11:26), first to rescue them then to the valley of Meggido where the battle of Armageddon will occur (Zech.14:2-5.) —http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp46.htm

  • PaulNeil

    [deleted – Yes Paul, you’ve said this before, and I’ve given you so much info to prove otherwise]

  • Chris

    Deborah, you understood me wrong. I said that when He is taken out the way is the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST in the Church. This is a victorious Church and gets raptured. 2 Thess.2.

    For sure the Church will not preach after the rapture this is simple to understand.

    Yes, the 144000 are all chosen from the tribes of Israel who witness to those in the tribulation, but this witnessing cannot be without the Holy Ghost. Surely the 144000 will preach having the Holy Ghost as mouth piece.

    So my point is that the Holy Ghost is still present in the 144000 and will be indwelling those that get saved during the tribulation. Surely then the Holy Ghost has not departed totally with the church.
    Exactly when the rapture will take place remains a mystery and I do not have to agree with Jacob in this regard.

    What I am saying is that the forerunners of the tribulation has already started, we just need to look around us and the time is here where believers are increasingly being persecuted for their faith.

    The question arises now, are all of us exempt from escaping such persecution as other believers are experiencing right now?

    Satan has been in charge of the “Kosmos” for a very long time now and many have face tribulation because of his rule.

    So to say that the church in totality will be raptured of which we are part of is not correct otherwise how do we explain believers currently paying the ultimate price.

    The question is how long will members of the church still be persecuted as result of Satan before the rapture takes place is not known

  • Andy

    The generation spoken of by Jesus, can also be referring to age, that this present age won’t end until all these things be fulfilled. Thus confirming the guarantee that the end-times prophecies will happen. It could also mean whichever is the last generation, will see all things. It doesn’t have to mean a specific generation countdown from the re-creation of Israel. Israel is most indeed a sign, but, this “counting a generation” thing caused embarrassment in 1981, and 1991, and 2001,and 2011, and so on, as people thought, maybe a generation is 40, no 50, no 60, and so on. We don’t know when the rapture will be. We certainly should believe it is close based on the world events and the doctrine of immanency. But to countdown the length of a generation, is ill advised.

  • Redeemed

    Chris, I picked up on something that you said:

    What I most certainly know is that God will take away the obedient saints before His wrath is poured out on this planet.

    Do you believe in a “partial rapture”? There are some who believe in a works-oriented rapture when backslidden Christians will be left to go through the tribulation. (Sort of a form of purgatory it seems to me.) There are well-known ministries who are now teaching this.

    Also, regarding the Holy Spirit. He is omnipresent. Just because He has been removed in the residence He has in the Church, He will still be present in some form after the Rapture of the Church.

  • Louise

    Thank you for posting this article. I always enjoy reading matters pertaining to the rapture and the Glorious day when we will be with our Wonderful Lord Jesus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Andy

    >> But to countdown the length of a generation, is ill advised.

    Did you see the notice at the top of the article? If not, please read it.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    I echo what Redeemed picked up on… the ‘partial rapture’?

    You say, “What I most certainly know is that God will take away the obedient saints before His wrath is poured out on this planet.”

    How do you know you are obedience enough to make it into the rapture?

  • Redeemed

    Chris, my I respectfully call attention to some confusion in your comment:

    The question arises now, are all of us exempt from escaping such persecution as other believers are experiencing right now?

    Satan has been in charge of the “Kosmos” for a very long time now and many have face tribulation because of his rule.

    So to say that the church in totality will be raptured of which we are part of is not correct otherwise how do we explain believers currently paying the ultimate price.

    The question is how long will members of the church still be persecuted as result of Satan before the rapture takes place is not known.

    There have been Christian marytrs even beginning with the disciples and Apostles. There have been pockets of persecution all over the world in various places at various times throughtout history until the present day. This has no bearing upon the Rapture. How you can make that connection is beyond my comprehension.

    During the Great Tribulation the persecution will be global, not regional. There will be no place to hide. These are who the Bible calls the “tribulation saints”. The Church will be taken out and appear before the Bema and then celebrate the Wedding Supper of the Lamb during the 7 ear period preceding Christ’s 2nd Coming and the Millenial Reign.

    So many these days are deceived into thinking that the Church will go through the Great Trib. This is exactly what Satan wants the Church to believe. It serves his purposes for taking their focus off the Blessed Hope and putting it on world events and “preparation” as if there would be any way to adequately prepare oneself for such a time.

  • Chris

    Redeemed and Deborah I most certainly do not believe in a partial rapture where is tha in the Bible?

    There is one apearing of the Lord at the Raptuer and one last “coming” return of the Lord with the saints and not for the saints.

    The Rapture is for the saints.

    At this I would like to draw your attention to the Western Cape where the farms are attacked. I received a serrious call for prayer from someone in the area. They are in serious perill and the newes we see on TV or hear on the radio is watered down. So please support these people in your prayers.

  • Chris

    Deborah regarding your statement “How do you know you are obedient enough to make it into the rapture?”
    Lets take ONLY one example: in 1 Cor. 5 and 6 we read about fornication that took place amongst the believers that was not even evident amongst the gentiles.
    1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

    This person according to Paul should be removed from amongst them;

    Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

    It is obvious that this person was recognized as a believer and a clear distinction is made here that this sin was not even amongst the gentiles or heathen peoples.

    I am sure that you will agree with me that in today’s terms a disobedient believer doing the same would not qualify for the rapture.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> It is obvious that this person was recognized as a believer and a clear distinction is made here that this sin was not even amongst the gentiles or heathen peoples.

    Nope, it does not say he was recognised as a believer. It just says that there “is fornication among you” (FALSE CHRISTIANS) among true Christians. And Paul is saying that these people need to be removed from the church – they are evil see…

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13
    9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.
    10 In no way did I mean the immoral people of this world, or the greedy and swindlers and idolaters, since you would then have to go out of the world.
    11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolater, or verbally abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.
    12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Are you not to judge those inside?
    13 But God will judge those outside. Remove the evil person from among you.

    They are not disobedient believers, they are not Christians.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> I most certainly do not believe in a partial rapture where is tha in the Bible?

    lol, you are confusing me, you said that “What I most certainly know is that God will take away the obedient saints before His wrath is poured out on this planet.”

    That means that obedient saints will be raptured and dissobedient saints will remain to go through the trib. This is a partial rapture… only part of the body of Christ gets raptured.

    Where as, I believe that the WHOLE body of Christ get’s raptured (because that is what the bible says) and those who don’t were NOT Christian. They call themselves Christian, but they are FALSE Christians.

    This teaching of a part-ial rapture is a new-ish teaching that has crept up through the likes of Jacob Prasch and some others (with dubious doctrines).

  • Micheline

    Pardon my naivety, but what is “partial rapture” exactly?

    This is sooo frustrating!!! You mentioned Jacob Prasch above. I just listened to an audio of his called “The belt of Truth”, and thought it was a wonderful explanation of one of the pieces of the Armour of God. I was going to look for more of his sermons. Now this….Arrrgggg.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Micheline

    There is this ‘doctrine’ that only if you are good enough will you make it to be Raptured. So very good saints will be raptured and the ones slacking will remain behind during the trib. Jacob Prasch has unfortunately of late been promoting this doctrine (why I do not know).

    As you can see I explained to Chris that “the WHOLE body of Christ get’s raptured (because that is what the bible says) and those who don’t were NOT Christian. They call themselves Christian, but they are FALSE Christians”

  • Chris

    To who did Paul write when he wrote to the Corinthians?
    He obviously wrote to believers.

    1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    No how do people get to become the church:
    Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    So when looking at the two verses above it is clear that the church at Corinth were saved persons .It could not have been a mixed church consisting of saved and unsaved people as today’s so called churches, otherwise God added unsaved people to the church and that is impossible.
    The definition of the Biblical church is the Bride of the Lord and only the Lord adds daily to this church those that get saved.
    So when Paul writes in the first paragraph to the church which is at Corinth, he does exactly the same in 1 Cor. 5 where he says there is fornication AMONG YOU and that this should not be so.
    There is most certainly sin after salvation and one of these sins is evident here as fornication.
    To say that a believer has no sin after salvation is a lie, but there is grace IF the believer confesses his sins. This we do not see in 1 Cor. 5-6.
    Why would Paul warn believers not to do that which they want to in his letter to the Galatians and the rest of the epistles. Why would Paul warn these believers if they are safe?
    Look at the epistles they were all written to believers not unbelievers. It was important to keep the church pure through discipline – if it is not possible for believers to by their own rebellious actions fall away why did Paul keep on warning them. It would be futile and a waste of time to issue these warnings.
    Example: Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Getting back to the topic in 1Corinthians 5-6 concerning this person Paul admonishes the brethren as follow:
    1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
    Who is Paul addressing here? – it is obvious that it is the same people as in 1 Cor1 and 5. These are BRETHREN and Paul is telling them that it is shameful that there was not one person who judged the person who was a bother who was into this fornication. The judgment is between the brethren.
    As you rightly also quoted:1 Cor 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Are you not to judge those inside?
    This verse clearly states that those on the INSIDE are to be judged. Obviously on the inside of the church – and the church is the corporate body of saved individuals as God added to the church daily.
    Nobody can add themselves to the Church only God may – that is the divine purpose of the Lord – so the church by Biblical definition cannot have unsaved people only backsliders and unrepentant backsliders. It is these unrepentant backsliders that are instructed to leave the congregation in the hope that they repent and return.
    Later on in 1 Cor 6 Paul writes the following:
    Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
    1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
    He is telling believers here to flee from fornication – why would he do that if it was an unbeliever and it was not possible for a believer to stumble in this manner?

    The sin of fornication here is mentioned as a sin against the body and the body is the temple of God. Surely an unbeliever has not the same body as a believer who has a body as the temple of God?

    Clearly the Word here says that these people who must flee fornication must realise that their body is the temple of the Holy Ghost and the warning is clear that they were bought with a price THREFORE they should glorify God in their bodies and Spirit. (hence fleeing fornication)

    This is all in context with the previous chapter where fornication amongst these people had to be addressed.

    The church is there to reach out to persons like fornicators and to preach the good news to them, not to hand them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

    Finally you keep on accusing me of partial rapture doctrine – and I have already told you this is not the case.
    What I meant is that telling the current church that they are all going to be caught up in the rapture while they are alive is not true. There are many of the church who will face personal persecution and tribulation and will be martyred before the rapture takes place. So everyone alive now will not be alive at the rapture.
    Just look at what is currently happening with believers who are killed because of their faith – they will be the first in the resurrection but will not be rapture alive. That is what I meant.
    Deborah, we have come a long way and I am open for discussion, but your” LOL” remarks are border on sarcasm and I would appreciate your consideration in this regard.
    Regarding Jacob – as I have said earlier there are a FEW things I do not agree with Jacob – and I might be wrong –but please remember that Jacob has done much more with regards to apologetics than you and I together and I do not see the point of bringing him up in our discussions.
    Let keep this discussion in the with fruit of the Spirit in mind please.

  • vincent holloway

    Threescore and ten, it sees that the calculation is quite a good indicator.

  • Chris

    Just to make clear – when I say that “The church is there to reach out to persons like fornicators and to preach the good news to them, not to hand them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.” I mean unsaved fornicators are to be ministered to.
    Unrepentant fornicators inside the church are to be judged not those on the outside 1 Cor.5:12 This is true because the judgment must be amongst the brethren and unsaved must be preached to.
    The question now is; does the unrepentant sinner or fornicating brother qualify for the rapture?

  • Redeemed

    Anyone who believes in a “partial” or “obedient saint” rapture would have to believe in “partial” salvation. Either one is saved or one is lost. Also, we cannot earn our salvation and we cannot earn a “ticket” for the Rapture. If one is a sinner saved by grace and sealed unto redemption, one WILL be taken in the Rapture. The entire Bride of Christ will be taken out.

    Think about it. Christians are in all stages of growth, all the way from newborn up to the very mature. At times every believer hits a rough patch and may doubt their faith or temporarily fall into sin. But if they are genuine Christians they will not lose their salvation and they will be taken in the Rapture.

    This concept is works-oriented – we are not to live for Christ so we will not be left behind to suffer the torments of the Great Tribulation I guess to be “purified”. Doesn’t this sound like a form of purgatory?

    We are to serve Him out of a thankful heart and to please Him. We are not to live in fear, we are to live in expectation. The result of expectation of the imminent Rapture should motivate us to serve Him faithfully and reach others with the Good News. Not being concerned that we are doing enough or being faithful enough. What a damaging false teaching!

    Account for our lives will be given before the Bema Seat and rewards given for faithful service. But ALL will enter heaven. Because that does not depend upon anything that WE do – it is because of the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. Our part was to surrender to Him, acknowledge our sinful state and receive His gift of salvation.

  • Redeemed

    Micheline, this will probably sound very extreme and downright paranoid. But this is not my first rodeo and I have been around the block a few times. I love to mix metaphors! LOL

    Time after time over the past few years I have seen Bible teachers I have long trusted fall and compromise and start to mix in error with the truth. Or I have found that they have been doing so all along covertly.

    I have come to a place where I am very selective even about so-called discernment ministries. They have their “networks” and their “associations” and their media items to sell. And some so-called discernment ministries have lost the plot on eschatology and are even denying the Rapture, denying the significance of Israel, etc. Some will seem right on target on the surface, but if you dig deeper they are sold out to someone other than the Lord.

    I believe studying God’s Word is so very important. I have been blessed by those who I lovingly refer to as the “dead guys”. I believe a good commentary by a proven gifted teacher with sound doctrine is a valuable aid in understanding the Word. My personal preferences are H.A. Ironside and Clarence Larkin although there are others. You will not find them in “Christian” book stores. You have to search out sources and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and give you wisdom.

    May the Lord bless you!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    First I want to comment on this:

    >> Deborah, we have come a long way and I am open for discussion, but your” LOL” remarks are border on sarcasm and I would appreciate your consideration in this regard.

    Sarcasm? Chris, you know me well enough to know that that would NEVER be the case. How can you even think like that. That, “lol, you are confusing me” was meant to be just that. I did chuckle, because you words were confusing me. It was meant to be lighthearted, and it is lighthearted.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    Second

    >> Regarding Jacob – as I have said earlier there are a FEW things I do not agree with Jacob – and I might be wrong- but please remember that Jacob has done much more with regards to apologetics than you and I together and I do not see the point of bringing him up in our discussions.

    Wow, you see I think for myself and let the Holy Spirit dictate, I don’t let another person dictate my thoughts for me. Jacob might be HIGHLY intelligent and speak several languages, but that does not make me stupid.

    The fact that Prasch insinuates that those who believe in pretrib rapture are HERETICS in his book, “Shadows of the Beast’ makes me wonder about him…
    Oh and the fact that he says “the phenomenon of being ‘slain in the spirit‘ occurs many times in both Testaments” The Dilemma of Laodecia pg. 29
    And that he believes in the Nephillim (demons came down and had relations with woman) which he talks about often in a lot of his videos – why I do not know.

  • Redeemed

    Chris, you do believe that only “obedient” Christians will go in the Rapture. That is false teaching and that is known as a “partial rapture” theory.

    Also, you apparently believe in a mid-trib Rapture or “pre-wrath” rather than a pretrib Rapture. Is that the case?

    And if you are taking the word of someone you respect and consider learned above the average or an expert, you are sadly misguided. Be aware that one abberent teaching leads to another and another. God is no respecter persons and neither should we be. We can respect the gifts He has given, but if they are truly from Him they will not conflict with the Word of God.

    I hope you will listen to what Deborah is trying to present here, solid biblical truth. She may not have “credentials” of men, but she has the wisdom and discernment of the Holy Spirit. God uses the humble to confound the “wise” or those who consider themselves learned.

    The teachings you present here are from the pit and cause confusion. May the Lord bless you and grant you His discernment in these matters.

  • Redeemed

    I was shocked to see that Jacob Prasch calls those who believe in pre-trib heretics! And he believes in the Nephilim? Oh my! I had no idea! What say ye about this Chris since you mentioned Mr. Prasch. Sometimes high intelligence can be one’s own worst enemy.

  • Micheline

    Redeemed,

    LOL, I love your metaphors!!

    As I am “new” to the family of God, I am very careful with what I read. I never knew there are sooooo many false teachers out there. Thank you for pointing me into the direction of at least two “safe” teachers. I feel that at this point, I need the input of other TRUE men of God as there are a few concepts that I don’t understand.

    A good friend of mine is now reading Andrew Murray and suggested I read his books. Also Prof J Malan mentioned in his sermons at Windhoek Nov 2010 that Andrew Murray lead many people to Jesus by teaching the true Gospel. Is he also one of those that started out good and ended on the wrong path?

    I know what you mean about unable to find the TRUE Gospel in the book stores. Martin Horan mentioned two books, one by Dave Hunt. Well, you can not find those anywhere in South Africa. It is sad that our book stores only cater for the likes of Hagee, J Meyer, Hinn, etc….available in abundance :(

    Redeemed, thank you very much for your reply. God bless.

  • Micheline

    Debs,
    Thank you, I understand that now.

    Another question, if I may.

    Through Jesus, all our sins are forgiven, only if we ask for forgiveness and repent. In heaven, we will be judged by God. All those sins that He forgave, will we be judged on those or just the ones we “forgot” or the ones we didn’t ask Him to forgive. Will we be judged on the quantity and quality of good works?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> Why would Paul warn believers not to do that which they want to in his letter to the Galatians and the rest of the epistles. Why would Paul warn these believers if they are safe?
    Look at the epistles they were all written to believers not unbelievers. It was important to keep the church pure through discipline – if it is not possible for believers to by their own rebellious actions fall away why did Paul keep on warning them. It would be futile and a waste of time to issue these warnings.
    Example: Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    —-

    If you profess to be a Christian, but are living in perpetual sin and unrepentant, then you are not saved. If you are a Christian, slip up and sin, and are repentant you are a Christian.

    Please read:

    Liberty, Not License

    Galatians 5:16-26

    16 But I say, live by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh.
    17 For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want.
    18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity,
    20 idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions,
    21 envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
    23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    24 Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
    25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also behave in accordance with the Spirit.
    26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, being jealous of one another.

    The present section of this epistle brings before us the truth, in a very marked way, of the two natures in the believer. It is important to remember that when God saves us He does not destroy the carnal nature which we received at our natural birth. The new birth does not imply the elimination of that old carnal nature, neither does it imply a change in it, but rather the impartation of an absolutely new nature born of the Holy Spirit of God, and these two natures abide side by side in the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. This explains the conflict that many of us have known since we have been converted. In fact, I need not have said, “many of us,” for all converted people know at one time or another something of that conflict between the flesh and the Spirit. Jesus said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”-that is, the old nature-“that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”-that is the new nature, and these two natures abide side by side until we receive the redemption of the body which will be at the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He will transform this body of our humiliation and make it like unto the body of His glory. Then we will be delivered forever from all inward tendency to sin. Until then we have to learn, and sometimes by very painful experiences, that the carnal nature, that old nature, “is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom. 8:7).

    That old nature is so corrupt, so vile, that it can never be sanctified, and the new nature is so pure, so holy, that it does not need to be sanctified. So there is no mention in Scripture of the sanctification of the old nature. What is it then that needs to be sanctified? It is the man himself, and he is sanctified as he learns to walk in accordance with the dictates of the new nature. He is directed by the Holy Spirit of God, for the believer is not only born of the Spirit but indwelt by the Spirit.

    We are not to confound new birth by the Spirit with the reception of the Spirit. New birth is the operation of the Spirit of God. He it is who produces the new birth through the Word. We receive the Word in faith, we believe the Word, and the Spirit of God through the Word brings about new birth. The apostle James says, “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth” (James 1:18). The apostle Peter says, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever…And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you” (1 Peter 1:23, 25). And when I believe that Word I am born again; that is an inward change. It is the impartation of a new life; it is eternal life. But there is something more than that. It was always true in all dispensations, from Adam down to the day of Pentecost, that wherever people believed God’s Word they were born again, but the Holy Spirit Himself as a divine Person had not then come to dwell within them. Now since Pentecost, upon believing, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of God. He creates the new nature, and then comes to indwell the one who is thus born again, and as the believer learns to recognize the fact that the Spirit of God dwells within him, and as he turns everything over to His control, he finds deliverance from the power of inbred sin.

    Notice how the apostle puts it here: “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust [or, the desire] of the flesh.” It is so easy to fulfill the desire of the flesh. We must not link with that word lust the idea that it always means things base and unclean. The word itself simply means “desire,” and whatever the desire of the flesh is, it is always hateful to God. Here may be one who desires all kinds of carnal indulgences, and we have no difficulty in realizing the vileness of that, but here is another who desires worldly fame, the praise and adulation of his fellows, and that is also the lust of the flesh, or mind, and is as obnoxious to God as the other. Any kind of a carnal or fleshly desire is a lust, and if we would be delivered from walking according to these selfish lusts we must walk in the Spirit.

    It is one thing to have the Spirit indwelling us and quite another to walk in the Spirit. To walk in the Spirit implies that the Holy Spirit is controlling us, and we can walk in the Spirit only as our lives are truly surrendered to Christ. Somebody says, “Well, then, I understand you mean to tell us that all believers possess the Holy Spirit, but that many of us have never received the second blessing, and are not filled with the Spirit.” I do not find the term, “second blessing,” in Scripture, though I admit that in the lives of many Christians there is an experience that answers to what people call “the second blessing.” Many Christians have lived for years on a rather low, somewhat carnal, worldly plane. They love the Lord, they love His Word, they love to attend the ordinances of His house, they enjoy Christian fellowship, and seek to walk as upright men and women through this world, but they have never truly yielded themselves and all their ransomed powers wholly to the Lord. There is something they are keeping back, some controversy with God, and as long as this continues there will always be conflict and defeat, but when one comes to the place where he heeds the Word, “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present [that you surrender, hand over] your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service” (Rom. 12:1)-when one makes that surrender there is indeed in the life what answers to a kind of second blessing; that is, the Spirit of God is now free to take possession of that believer, and operate through him and use him for the glory of God in a way He could not do as long as that man or woman was not wholly surrendered to the Lord. We speak a great deal about “full surrender,” and yet, I am afraid, some of us use the term in a very careless way. It is of no use to speak of being fully surrendered to God if I am still seeking my own interest. If I am self-centered, if I am hurt because people do not praise me, or if I am lifted up because they do, then the Spirit of God does not have His way with me. If Christ Himself is not the one object before my soul, if I cannot say, “For me to live is Christ,” if my great concern is not that Christ should be magnified in me whether by life or by death, then I am not yet wholly surrendered to Him. If I cannot say from the heart, “Not my will, but Thine,” there is no use in talking about being surrendered to Christ. The surrendered believer is no longer seeking his own but the things which belong to Christ Jesus. That is the man who “walks in the Spirit.” “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.”

    The conflict is shown in verse 17: “For the flesh lusteth [or desireth] against the Spirit, and the Spirit against [or contrary to] the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other.” It is not exactly, “So that ye cannot do the things that ye would,” for God has made provision that we might do the things that we would, but it should be rendered, “So that ye may not do the things that ye would.” Here is conflict in the believer’s breast. The flesh desires one thing, the Spirit another, and as long as there is not a full surrender to the will of God these two are in constant warfare, and therefore the believer may not do the things that he would. I rise in the morning and say, “Today I will not allow that tongue of mine to say one unkind thing, one un-Christlike word.” But some unexpected circumstances arise, and almost before I know it I have said something for which I could bite my tongue. The thing I never meant to do I did. And, on the other hand, things I meant to do I did not do. What does that tell me? There is conflict. The Spirit of God has not His complete right of way in my heart and life, and because of this conflict I may not do the things that I would. I am hindered, and my life is not a life of full surrender as God intended it to be. How many of us know this experimentally. Oh, the defeated lives, the disappointed lives, even of people who are real Christians, who know the blessedness of being saved by the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and who long to glorify God, and yet are constantly defeated. Why? Because the Spirit of God does not have His supreme place in their lives.

    “But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” We are not to think that the way of deliverance is by law-keeping. I may say, “From now on I mean to be very careful, I will obey God’s law in everything. That surely will result in my practical sanctification.” But no, I am disappointed again. I will find that the will to do good is present with me, but how to perform it is another thing, and so I have to learn that my sanctification is no more through the law than my justification. What then? He tells us, “If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” If you yield to the Spirit of God, if He has the control of your life, if you are led by Him, then the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. And in order that we may not misunderstand, he brings before us the lusts of the flesh, that we may be able to drag these things out into the light, that we may see them in all their ugliness, so that if any of them have any place in our hearts and lives we may judge them in the presence of God. We often run across people today who say that they do not believe in the depravity of human life, but these are the things that come from the natural man; and even the believer, if he is not careful, if he is not walking with God as led by the Spirit, may fall into some of them.

    “Now the works of the flesh are manifest [they are evident], which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness.” Maybe some of you think or say, “I wish he would not use those words; I do not like them; they are nasty words.” My dear friends, let me remind you, there is nothing the matter with the words; it is the sins that are expressed in these words that are so nasty. Many people who do not like the words are living in the sins, and God drags things out into the light and calls sin by name. There are people living in the sin of adultery who do not like to hear their wickedness called by name. Take the words of the Lord Jesus, “Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery” (Matt. 5:32). There are those who are committing adultery according to that passage, and others who are contemplating it. If you have allowed yourself any unholy love, permitting yourself any unholy familiarity with one with whom you have no right to seek to enter the married relationship, you yourself are guilty in God’s sight of the sin that is mentioned here. “Fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness”-that is, vile, filthy thoughts indulged in. You cannot hinder evil thoughts coming into your mind, but you can help indulging in them. Lasciviousness is indulging in thoughts that are unclean and vile and unholy. People sometimes come to me in great distress and say, “Evil thoughts come to me, even when I am praying, and I wonder sometimes whether I am really converted or not.” That is the flesh manifesting itself. These things may come to you, but do you indulge in them? A Welshman said, “I cannot help it if a bird alights on top of my head, but I can help it if he builds his nest in my hair,” and so you may not be able to help it if evil thoughts come surging into your mind, but you can help indulging in those thoughts.

    Idolatry, putting anything in the place of the true and living God. Witchcraft. “Oh,” you say, “that is outmoded. They used to burn witches.” But what is witchcraft? It is a word that implies “having to do with the dead,” and I think that Chicago has a good many witches in it. Often while passing along the street I see such signs as “Spiritualist medium,” or something like that, people pretending to have traffic with the dead. That is witchcraft, and it is an abomination in the sight of God. Hatred. This is a sin which we all have to guard against. Scripture says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer” (1 John 3:15). Hatred comes from the old nature. Variance-quarrelsomeness. There are many of us who would shrink from those first sins, but we are not very easy to get along with, we are dreadfully touchy, and this is as truly an evidence of the old nature, as those other “works of the flesh.” Emulations, a constant desire to excel other people, to get the admiration of others. Here is a preacher who has some little gift, and he is upset because some other preacher has greater recognition. Here is one who sings a little, and someone else who also sings excites more admiration, and there is trouble about it. Here is a Sunday school teacher, and some other teacher seems to be preferred before her, and she is in a frenzy and almost ready to quit her work. Trace these things back to their source and you will find they all come from the flesh, and therefore they should be judged in the sight of God. And then, wrath. That is anger. There is an anger that is holy, but that wrath to which you and I usually give way is very unholy. The only holy anger is anger with sin. “Be ye angry, and sin not” (Eph. 4:26). The old Puritan said, “I am determined so to be angry as not to sin, therefore to be angry at nothing but sin.” And then strife, resulting in “seditions.” The two words are intimately linked together. All these things are sinful. Heresies, a school of opinion set up opposed to the truth of God. Envyings. Scripture says, “Be content with such things as ye have” (Heb. 13:5). Someone has a better house than I have, someone else has a better car than mine, and I envy him. The Arab said, “Once I felt bad and I complained because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet.” There is not one of us but has far more than he deserves. Why should we envy anyone else? Suppose some people have magnificent mansions and I have only a hut.

    A tent or a cottage, why should I care?
    They’re building a palace for me over there!

    “Be content,” says the Spirit of God, “with such things as ye have.” When you reach that place life will be very much happier for you.

    Murders. Think of putting murder with such sins as emulations and envyings! Many a murder has resulted from these very sins, and, you know, murder does not consist in sticking a knife into a man or blowing his brains out with a revolver. You can murder a man by your unkindness. I have known many a person who died of a broken heart because of the unkindness of those from whom they had a right to expect something different. God give us to manifest so much of the love of Christ that we will be a blessing to people instead of a curse to them. Then drunkenness. Surely I do not need to speak of this to Christians. This too is a work of the flesh. Then revelings. The world calls it “having a good time” in a carnal way. “And such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Here he uses the present continuous tense: “That they that are in the habit of doing such things, they whose lives are characterized by such things.” If people are characterized by these things, they prove that they are not Christians at all. Real Christians may fall into them, but they are miserable and wretched until they confess them, but unsaved men revel in them and go on without judging them. These things come from the flesh. Now we have the opposite-the fruit of the Spirit. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” You notice the word here is, fruit, for we do not read in the Bible of the “fruits” of the Spirit, but of the “fruit.” This ninefold fruit springs from the new nature as one is actuated by the Holy Spirit of God. Love, the very essence of the divine nature. Joy-Scripture says, “The joy of the Lord is your strength” (Neh. 8:10). Peace, that is more than happiness, that is a deep-toned gladness that is unruffled and untroubled by all the trials of earth. Longsuffering, this leads you to endure uncomplainingly. Gentleness, some of us are so gruff and so rough, but the Christian should cultivate the meekness, the gentleness of Christ. Faith, in the sense of confidence in God. Meekness. We are not meek by nature; the natural man is always pushing himself forward. The spiritual man says, “Never mind me, recognize others; I am willing to remain in the background.” Wherever you find this pushing spirit you may know that one is still walking in the flesh. When you find the desire to give godly recognition to others you will find one walking in the Spirit. And then, temperance is just “self-control,” the whole body held under in subjection to the Spirit of God. “Against such there is no law.” You do not need law to control a man thus walking in the Spirit.

    “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” It does not say, “They that are Christ’s [should] crucify the flesh.” They have done so when they put their trust in the Lord Jesus. They trusted in the One crucified on their behalf, and therefore can say, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live” (Gal. 2:20). It is a settled thing. If you have crucified the flesh, if you have recognized the fact that Christ’s crucifixion is yours, then do not live in that to which you have died. “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” If we have this new life, if linked up now with our risen Christ, then let Him control our ways, let us be yielded to Him, let us walk in the Spirit, let us not be desirous of fame or glory, let us not seek anything that would lead to empty boasting, provoking one another, saying and doing things that may pain others needlessly, or envying one another. –Dr. Henry Ironside

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> The question now is; does the unrepentant sinner or fornicating brother qualify for the rapture?

    1) The unrepentant sinner who professes to be a Christian does not qualify

    2 Timothy 3:2-5
    2 For people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
    3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, savage, opposed to what is good,
    4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, loving pleasure rather than loving God.
    5 They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power. [Having a form of godliness, but denying the power] So avoid people like these.

    2) The fornicating Christian who is repentant qualifies

  • Chris

    I am not going to say this AGIAN. I have mentioned this THREE times already and you seem to keep on hammering on the presumption that I agree with everything that Jacob says.
    Let’s face it Jacob has expounded much of the Scriptures excellently – but does he know everything – I do not believes so. Nor do I believe any of us know everything nor any of the very “good” theologians.
    The Lord will hold him accountable for actions which are not in the will of the Lord.
    Please understand that Jacob is no Guru – our teacher is the Lord and he uses all of us to also teach one another.
    What I do believe in is that instead of bickering over issues we should be true disciples and rather learn from each other and build one another up in the faith – this is unity. We can only become one if we are able to humble ourselves and swallow our pride and be teachers with a teachable spirit. The Body of the Lord is one body.
    Now, concerning what Jacob says in his book Shadows of the Beast regarding those who believe in a pre-trib rapture are heretics…….took me by surprise as well… but does that make the many truths he writes about in the book absolute, definitely not?
    Also concerning: “the phenomenon of being ‘slain in the spirit‘ occurs many times in both Testaments” The Dilemma of Laodicea pg. 29 I will have to check out again as I have loaned the book out. As I know Jacob personally I can assure you that this does not happen in his meetings and that he often mentions that what is happening today as being slain in the spirit is God’s judgment rather than infilling of the spirit. He has said that people fall forward on their faces in adoration.
    I have just phoned persons with this book and they all say that Jacob is using the term “slain in the Spirit” as a modern term to be understood correctly. In other words where people were “slain in the Spirit” (modern terminology) is actually not as the phenomena today, but people fell down on their faces in adoration and reverence. This happened in both Testaments. He uses “Slain in the Spirit” as familiar terminology to explain persons going down on their FACES in worship and reverence and not falling backwards as what is happening today. In other words those who use the phrase “slain in the Spirit” as the phenomena happening today is not the same as what has happened in the Old and the New Testaments. (Please read that part of the book again)
    Redeemed seems not to read my comments too well. Your statement “Also, you apparently believe in a mid-trib Rapture or “pre-wrath” rather than a pretrib Rapture. Is that the case?” Needs to be evaluated in accordance to what I have already said.
    No one knows the exact time the rapture will occur and to make accusations against as to those who are pro pre-trib, mid trip etc is doing the same as what Jacob did in calling those heretics who are pre-trib.
    To set the matter straight I am more for pre-trib, but I do believe that the forerunning to the tribulation is starting to take place. There are however many people who hope not to face persecution and to be raptured, but are currently paying the ultimate price of martyrs not having made the rapture. These are experiencing personal tribulation. Only the start of global tribulation.
    Now concerning obedience and being disobedient I have mentioned 1 Cor 5- 6 and asked if this person who were to be judged and expelled from the Corinthians would qualify for the rapture and have had no comment in this regard exept that he was not a true Christain and this I do not believe was the case.
    I fail to see how unrepentant disobedient believers who know more and will be more accountable may just carry on living in relaxed disobedience to the Lord, simply using grace as an excuse that we are not all perfect.
    We are to be obedient children not fashioning ourselves according to our former lusts. 1 Pet 1:14 Why does Peter mention this if it was not possible to happen to believers.
    There are many who say that a believer will NEVER for example stumble through the flesh like the person Paul mentions in Corinth and sin, well the every believer must already be glorious and that is not true because we all still have sins. David is a good example.
    What I do believe is that if a believer is found to have sinned in like manner he or she may rely on the Lord and be obedient to confess and repent of whatever sin they had done, but to disobey and not confess and repent will be to ignore the grace the Lord through His mercy allows us is rebellious.
    I find more grace in realising that a brother who has sinned will receive grace if he obeys the Lord to confess his sin and to repent of this sin than saying a believer would NEVER sin and that is only non-believers who sin. The greater the sin of the flesh (not against the Spirit) the greater the grace IF there is obedience to repent and confess.
    There are too many people who doubt their salvation because they have stumbled and were told that a believer would NEVER have sinned, who then have become depressed and condemned. Herein I find no grace at all.
    If a brother is not obedient he needs to be avoided, not as an enemy, but to cause him to become ashamed and to be admonished as a brother. 2 Thess. 3:14
    Obedience is not to be taken lightly and today people take the grace of the Lord and use it as something to live disobediently giving permission to fleshly lusts.
    The Spirit is given to those who are obedient: Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. So what then about the disobedient? We all know that when we have been disobedient, we feel estranged from the Lord until we confess and repent.
    We are not all obedient because we are not all glorified yet, but our strive is to enter into the narrow gate and to exercise ourselves unto holiness. This must be our wilful endeavours and not wilful to be continually disobedient.
    If we have been disobedient we need to become obedient to confess and repent, not giving in to fleshly desires again in disobedience. We need to grow in grace which includes obedience.
    As it is written: Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    This verse does not say “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey and to those who do not obey him;

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Micheline

    >> Through Jesus, all our sins are forgiven, only if we ask for forgiveness and repent. In heaven, we will be judged by God. All those sins that He forgave, will we be judged on those or just the ones we “forgot” or the ones we didn’t ask Him to forgive. Will we be judged on the quantity and quality of good works?

    That is a good question.. I’ll have to study up on this quickly. Be right back…ok:

    2 Corinthians 5:10 says, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” This verse is referring to Christians. The Judgment seat of Christ or the BEMA seat does not determine ones salvation, because all our sins are already forgiven through Jesus Christ and we will never be condemned for them. (Romans 8:1). Instead we will give an account of our lives. Jesus will not judge our sins, but reward us for our lives. Yes, we will be answering for the sins we committed, but not judged.

    At the BEMA seat, Christians will be rewarded based on how they served Jesus (1 Corinthians 9:4-27; 2 Timothy 2:5). The Bible speaks of Christians receiving crowns for different things. (1 Corinthians 9:4-27; 2 Timothy 2:5). The different types of crowns are described in (2 Timothy 2:5; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; and Revelation 2:10.) James 1:12 says: “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> I fail to see how unrepentant disobedient believers who know more and will be more accountable may just carry on living in relaxed disobedience to the Lord, simply using grace as an excuse that we are not all perfect.

    I never once even remotely mention anything like this, I never use grace as a license to sin.

    >> There are many who say that a believer will NEVER for example stumble through the flesh like the person Paul mentions in Corinth and sin, well the every believer must already be glorious and that is not true because we all still have sins. David is a good example.

    1) Yes, we all sin, but we do not live in PERPETUAL SIN!
    2) David was repentant, do you think that while he was sinning he would have been left behind if the rapture came?

    >> I find more grace in realising that a brother who has sinned will receive grace if he obeys the Lord to confess his sin and to repent of this sin than saying a believer would NEVER sin and that is only non-believers who sin.

    You make it sound like I am saying I am sinless and that Christians don’t sin?

    >> There are too many people who doubt their salvation because they have stumbled and were told that a believer would NEVER have sinned, who then have become depressed and condemned. Herein I find no grace at all.

    Well that would not have been on this website, so I have no idea what you are speaking about.
    Only GOD knows the hearts of each and every man, He knows who is genuinely saved and stumbled and the Holy Spirit is chastising them and bringing them back to repentance, and God knows who are faking their Christianity.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    You can at least answer me on the other stuff where you make it sound like I think Christians are sinless.

  • Chris

    Deborah. You insinuate that the brother in 1 Corinthians who was into an adulterous relationship was a “False Christian”.

    My question is do not think it is possible for a true Christian to stumble in this manner?

    My point that I made about David is that he did and he repented. But it would seem that you would insinuate that this can not happen to a true believer?

    If I am wrong I stand corrected.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >> You insinuate that the brother in 1 Corinthians who was into an adulterous relationship was a “False Christian”. How do we know he was a genuine Christina?
    >> My question is do not think it is possible for a true Christian to stumble in this manner?

    Let’s go back to your other comment where you said…”Nobody can add themselves to the Church only God may – that is the divine purpose of the Lord – so the church by Biblical definition cannot have unsaved people only backsliders and unrepentant backsliders. It is these unrepentant backsliders that are instructed to leave the congregation in the hope that they repent and return.
    Later on in 1 Cor 6 Paul writes the following:
    1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
    1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
    He is telling believers here to flee from fornication – why would he do that if it was an unbeliever and it was not possible for a believer to stumble in this manner?”

    My understanding of the Corinthian church was that it was a building housing people, genuine Christian people and people who were false Christians (sorta like what you get today, but on a much lesser scale) So within the Corinthian church you have the body of Christ, and if a brother (a genuine Christian) were to commit fornication but come back to repent then he is most certainly a genuine Christian. But then you have those who live in perpetual sin and don’t want to repent – are these people Christian? So you said, “It is these unrepentant backsliders that are instructed to leave the congregation in the hope that they repent and return.” Paul addresses the whole church as the ‘body of Christ’, but there are rotten apples inside that building. Paul does not know their hearts? He does who is genuinely saved or not. Some will return because they were spoken to by the Holy Spirit abiding in them who brought them to their knees and repented and the others never repented because there was no Holy Spirit chastising them and they wont return to the church. <– And by not returning it proves they were not saved to start with; so the Corinthian church was not ALL Christian, just a building housing the body of Christ and those pretending to be Christian.

    I have never ever insinuated ever that a Christian cannot sin, in fact Chris you KNOW ME very very well and you know things about me, I’ve been open and honest with you about things in my life. And I am actually very hurt that you’ve accused me of these things. Knowing very well that I AM A SINNER – a REPENTANT sinner!

  • Chris

    Hi Deborah I am not going to continue this discussion with you.

    Have a nice day

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    Unbelievable….why not? I’ve explained everything very clearly regarding Christians sinning so what’s the problem?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    You say:

    >> To who did Paul write when he wrote to the Corinthians?
    He obviously wrote to believers.
    1 Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
    No how do people get to become the church:
    Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
    So when looking at the two verses above it is clear that the church at Corinth were saved persons. It could not have been a mixed church consisting of saved and unsaved people as today’s so called churches, otherwise God added unsaved people to the church and that is impossible.

    This is the first time I have ever heard this. That the whole Corinthian church was ONLY Christian!? How is this possible if the Corinthian church is an example of every church through-out history? I have spent the whole of last night up reading studying trying to find out how you come to the conclusion that the whole Corinth church was Christian and not a mixed bag. And I can’t find anything, seriously…

    Yes the body of Christ is Christian only obviously, and God adds to it. But a congregation in any church, including the Corinthian church was was made up of the body of Christ and ‘pretending’ Christians.

    —————

    Please read:

    1 Corinthians 5:1-13
    1 It is actually reported that sexual immorality exists among you, the kind of immorality that is not permitted even among the Gentiles, so that someone is cohabiting with his father’s wife.
    2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this from among you?
    3 For even though I am absent physically, I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present.
    4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of our Lord Jesus,
    5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
    6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast affects the whole batch of dough?
    7 Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch of dough – you are, in fact, without yeast. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
    8 So then, let us celebrate the festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of vice and evil, but with the bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
    9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.
    10 In no way did I mean the immoral people of this world, or the greedy and swindlers and idolaters, since you would then have to go out of the world.
    11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolater, or verbally abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.
    12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Are you not to judge those inside?
    13 But God will judge those outside. Remove the evil person from among you.

    “The church of God is responsible as to the character of its fellowship, and it is responsible as to those who sit down together at the table of the Lord and are linked up in Christian service. Where there is failure, the individual who fails is responsible before God. It is a serious thing to profess to live the life that should characterize members of the church of God. Ours is a high and holy calling, and if we lower the standard, we are not only dishonoring Christ individually, but we are giving the wrong testimony to the world……”

    The apostle Paul had heard serious things concerning certain internal conditions in the church at Corinth, but he had been hindered from getting to them, and certain persons in the church who were carnally minded themselves and who knew that the apostle’s coming would probably mean rebuking them for their worldly behavior were saying, “Paul is really afraid to come to Corinth, he knows he hasn’t the influence he once had.” But he says, “No, I am not afraid to come. Some of you are puffed up, as though I would not come to you. But I will come shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.” In other words, when he should come (and he was speaking with apostolic authority), there were some things he was going to look into very carefully. He would find out whether the power of God was working in their lives or whether it was just bravado and conceit that led them to justify themselves. There is a tremendous lot of pretence among professing Christians: pretending to a piety that they do not possess, pretending to a devotedness that is not genuine. He would know not only the talk of their lips but would inquire into the behavior that characterized them. “For the kingdom of God is not in word,” is not merely lip profession, “but in power,” it is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the life.

    “The apostle says, “I want to come to you, but do you want me to come with a rod”-a rod of discipline? Did they want him to come as the representative of the Lord to chastise them for their bad behavior, or to come in the spirit of meekness so that they and he might sit down together over the Word of God and enjoy the precious things of Christ? If they desired him to come in this last way, there were some things to be settled first, and he told them what they were. “In the first place, it is reported commonly”-this was not merely a matter of some individual’s gossip, it was widely known-”that you are tolerating one of the vilest forms of immorality that has ever been heard of even among the heathen Gentiles; it is known that one of your members actually has taken his father’s wife (not of course his mother, but his stepmother) as his own wife. This is an abomination in the sight of God, but you have not recognized the wickedness of it. You have rather prided yourselves on the breadth and liberality that would enable you to go on with a thing like that. You are puffed up when you ought to be brokenhearted.” “Ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.” Even if they felt that they did not know how to handle a thing like this, they could have been down before God with breaking hearts crying to Him to undertake for them, and He would have intervened and taken the wicked man from among them. But since he had received the evil report, as the representative of the Lord Jesus Christ he was going to tell them how to handle the situation, and in so doing he gave instruction concerning the handling of similar questions all down through the centuries.

    “For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already.” In other words, because we are all one in the Lord I have looked into this matter already, I have discerned, I have investigated and have the facts concerning him that has done this deed. This is the verdict, “In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power [or authority] of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan.” What does that mean? John says, “We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:19), or, “in the wicked one.” This man was in the circle of those who are “of God.” Somebody might say, “The way to help him is to keep him in the circle, let him sit down with you at the Communion table; do not be hard on him, try to win him back, throw your arms of love about him and sympathize with him.” The unrepentant man will be more hardened in his iniquity if you do that. Put him outside in the Devil’s domain, let him know that he has forfeited all title to a place with the people of God-that he has been put back into the world where Satan rules. That is what he means when he says, “Deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh.” What has caused all this trouble? The activity of the flesh. Very well, put him out in that sphere where he will find out that “it is an evil and a bitter thing to forsake the Lord his God.” When he finds himself abhorred by men and women who love Christ, when he finds his sin is a stench in the nostrils of Christian people, he may break before God. If, in spite of his sin, he has really been born again, he will break. If he has been a false professor, he will plunge deeper and deeper into evil things.

    “Deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” We do not like to carry out extreme commands like these, but this is the Word of God, and the greatest kindness that the people of God can do to a man who is deliberately going on in willful sin is to refuse Christian fellowship to him. As long as you treat him as a brother he will only be puffed up in his ungodly ways and it will be harder to reach him. But if you obey the Word, God will work toward his recovery and restoration.
    “Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?” Housewives know that. What is the nature of leaven? You have a great pan of dough and insert a little leaven, and if you leave it all night, the whole thing runs over on the table by morning. Very well, you allow one wicked man to go unrebuked and undealt with after the wickedness has been fully manifested, and the thing will go on like an infection working, working, working to the ruin of others and to the harm of the entire testimony.

    The church of God is largely afraid to exercise discipline today, but where this is carried out in obedience to the Word of God the church is kept in a condition where God can work. The apostle was not acting upon mere hearsay, there was definite evidence as to the guilt of this man. The church of God is not to jump to conclusions. We are not to believe every scandal that people try to circulate. We have a rule, “If thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican” (Matt. 18:15-17). If he will not hear the church, he has to be put under discipline. If one knows of definite wickedness, he should go first to the guilty person and try to set it right. If he does not succeed, he is then to take another witness, but if he will not hear them, they are to take it to the church of God and be prepared to back up everything.

    “Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.” Before God the whole body is looked upon as unleavened, for “Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.” We are men and women who began with the blood of the cross. Like Israel in Egypt, when sheltered by the Passover, they were to put all leaven away. Leaven is the type of wickedness.
    Leaven is mentioned in Galatians 5:9: “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.” There he is speaking of evil and unsound teaching which permeates and leavens the assembly of God. “Christ our passover is sacrificed for us,” and if we have been redeemed by the precious blood it is incumbent upon us to recognize our responsibility to keep the feast, the feast of communion and fellowship with Him, not with old leaven, that is, the corruption of the old nature, nor with malice. Is there a child of God who is still tolerating un-judged malice in the heart? “Neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.” Our God looks for reality. It is not enough to say, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?…and in thy name done many wonderful works?” (Matt. 7:22). The great thing is for all who have been redeemed by His precious blood to manifest subjection to the Lord in the life.

    In the concluding verses the apostle stresses the treatment that should be meted out to evildoers who have gotten into the church. You cannot discipline the world. He says, “I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters.” If you should try to regulate all immorality in the world, you would have a tremendous job upon your hands, but here is the point: if a man who calls himself a brother is an immoral man or a covetous man-what is that? Does he couple covetousness with fornication? “The love of money is a root of all evil” (1 Tim. 6:10), and covetousness, reaching out and grasping for wealth, is just as vile a thing in God’s sight as indulgence in unholy lust in other lines.

    “If any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer.” What is a railer? It is a person who has a tongue loose at both ends and on a pivot in the middle, a vicious talker, an evil speaker, one who can destroy the reputation of another just as the murderer drives a dagger into the heart and destroys a life. A railer is a wicked person in the sight of God. “Oh,” somebody says, “I don’t mean any harm, but I am so careless with my tongue.” What would you think of one who goes around with a machine gun and keeps firing away on this side and that, and someone says, “What are you doing?” “Oh,” he replies, “I don’t mean any harm, but I am so careless with this machine gun.” A character assassin is as wicked in the sight of God as one who would take another’s life.

    “Or a drunkard.” No drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God. You young people in these vicious days in which we live, if you never want to be a drunkard, do not fall in with the current idea of thinking it is fashionable for everybody to drink a little bit. No man ever became a drunkard who was not first a moderate drinker. Somebody may say, “I do not believe in that; I can take a little and it does me no harm.” But it may do your brother harm, and Paul said, “If meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth” (1 Cor. 8:13). Here is God’s standard. “If any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.”

    An extortioner is one who squeezes the poor. Maybe he tries to cover up his sin in this way: he squeezes the poor and makes an extra thousand dollars, and then on Sunday comes down to the church and says, “I want to give you a hundred dollars for missions.” God says, “Keep your dirty money, you got it in the wrong way.” God wants holy money to use in holy service. An extortioner is a wicked person and God says, “With such an one no not to eat.” You are not to sit down to the table with such an one. That would cut down our dinner parties considerably, and I take it that he also includes the Lord’s table. People should be warned to stay away from the Lord’s table if living as depicted here.

    “For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?” Outside in the world God judges, He will deal with them in due time, but He calls upon the church of God to maintain careful discipline over its members for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. His good name is at stake. People say, “What! Is that one of your Christians? Does that person belong to Christ and do thus and so?” That is one reason why the church of God is responsible to maintain holiness as it goes on through the world.

    And now the concluding word: “Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.” Of course there is a great deal of other instruction in Scripture for discipline, as in the case of a brother overtaken in a fault, and the Word says, “If a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Gal. 6:1). Every effort should first be made to restore the wanderer, but if he will not be restored, if he persists in his sin, if he goes on defying the discipline of the church of God, then the time comes when the Word has to be acted on: “Put away from among yourselves that wicked person.” — Dr Henry Ironside

  • As a watchman who is risking it all in exposing evil INSIDE the church I have the “one heart beat away RAPTURE” view.

    Jesus said in Matthew 6:34 – “Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.”

    James 4:14-15 – “Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

    15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.”

    I believe our brothers/sisters that live in countries where they are killed for their faith in Jesus Christ have the “one heart beat away RAPTURE” view.

    I believe if the church in the west (especially America) had the “one heart beat away RAPTURE” view, the church would be a lot different. More humble and more of a sense of urgency to win as many as they can to a saving faith in Jesus Christ.

    That’s just my opinion.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    But back to the original question… the RAPTURE.

    You said: “What I most certainly know is that God will take away the obedient saints before His wrath is poured out on this planet.”

    You said: “What I meant is that telling the current church that they are all going to be caught up in the rapture while they are alive is not true. There are many of the church who will face personal persecution and tribulation and will be martyred before the rapture takes place. So everyone alive now will not be alive at the rapture.
    Just look at what is currently happening with believers who are killed because of their faith – they will be the first in the resurrection but will not be rapture alive. That is what I meant.”

    1) Yes it it OBVIOUS that there will be persecution Chris! No one on this website has ever not said that there wont be! And this country is going down the tubes, FAST, and people are dying, and are going to die – but is it the Tribulation? No, not yet.

    2) The rapture is our Blessed Hope and WE WILL look to Jesus Christ DAILY, every minute to come take us home.

    3) The entire Body of Christ will be raptured, not just the ‘obedient ones’ – this is called partial rapture theory!

    4) You said, “What I meant is that telling the current church that they are all going to be caught up in the rapture while they are alive is not true”….”So everyone alive now will not be alive at the rapture” Hmmm… Everyone is going to be dead? Hmmm…

  • Redeemed

    Chris, since you said that I did not read your statements, I felt I should respond. I have read your statements and find them very confusing. In fact, some of the things you say sound like holiness doctrine which puts believers under a yoke of bondage. Have you ever read H.A. Ironside’s personal testimony/account comparing true holiness with false?
    It is short and to the point. I highly recommend it. http://articles.ochristian.com/article10276.shtml

    May I say I hope that you will continue to dialogue here with us even though we have apparently struck a nerve. Our aim is to minister to one another, iron sharpening iron, and often that produces sparks.

    You said: (Emphasis added)

    THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE OBEDIENT: Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. So what then about the disobedient? We all know that when we have been disobedient, we feel estranged from the Lord until we confess and repent.
    We are not all obedient because we are not all glorified yet, but OUR STRIVE TO ENTER THE NARROW GATE and to exercise ourselves unto holiness. This must be our wilful endeavours and not wilful to be continually disobedient.
    If we have been disobedient we need to become obedient to confess and repent, not giving in to fleshly desires again in disobedience. We need to grow in grace which includes obedience.

    First, we receive the Holy Spirit upon regeneration as we surrender to Christ as Savior. Are you confused about basic salvation?

    Second, we do not strive to enter the narrow gate. We enter the gate when we surrender to Christ as Savior at salvation. In fact, Christ says that His yoke is easy, His burden light. The Christian life is not one of striving, it is one of surrender.

    You correctly state that Christians will sin until we reach perfection in heaven, and you correctly state that it is wrong for Christians to practice sin. However, I wonder if you have considered that if one is truly born again, one is a child of God and God says He will chasten those He loves and who are His children. God will discipline His own and they will give account before the Bema, but they are still His children. And ALL His living children WILL be taken in the Rapture whether they are in sin or not. We did not earn our salvation, we never deserved it, and it is not in our power to keep it. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and are part of the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ.

    I don’t want to make this too long, so I will address your other comment that directly applies to the Rapture separately.

  • Redeemed

    Chris, as Deborah as reiterated, you stated that obedient saints will be taken in the Rapture. Then you say that some in the Church will not be in the Rapture because they have died.

    Can you see why we are confounded by these statements?

    Yes, there have been many saints who have been martyred during the history of the Church, continuing until this day. They are in heaven, but their physical bodies are in the graves. According the the Bible, they will be taken in the Rapture first – the dead in Christ will rise first. Surely there are Christians who have died perhaps in an accident as a result of sin of some sort or in a backslidden condition.

    Obviously those deceased believers cannot be left to go through the Tribulation. Then what is the basis for excluding living believers who may be in the same condition?

    I can’t help but wonder if you have been influenced by Danny Issom who has promoted this type of theory under the Moriel banner.

    There are no shots over the bow here – we are just interested in getting at the truth because we are living in a day when the lines between truth and error are blurred and truth is being called error.

  • Redeemed

    William, thank you for chiming in. You have made an excellent point. If the Church had an imminent expectation of being whisked into the presence of our Lord at any minute, whether it be through unexpected death or the Rapture of the Church, there would be an URGENCY to root out the error in the Church as you so diligently and doggedly do at great risk.

    We as a Church would not stand for taking in truth tainted with error. We would be on fire for Christ and have a burden for those who are not saved and will be left behind and worse still suffer eternal torment.

    But we must remind ourselves that the Bible predicts exactly what is happening. But we must still stand for truth and count the cost.

    Thanks for all you do and for being on the front lines. Great will be your reward in heaven.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks you so much John!! Much appreciated!

  • Redeemed

    Well said John. I have appreciated so much your discernment, your rightly dividing of the Word and careful explanations. I know one has to be very careful of “endorsements” but I am comfortable in recommending your site as a source of Bible-based articles. I know you don’t have much time these days to add new articles, but there is a wealth of others available on your site at
    [removed]

    Thank you for taking the time to chime in and may the Lord richly bless you.

  • Holly

    May I ask what page number that Prasch said pre-trib believers were heretics? I thought he has always taught this was “non-essential” and that not to be a divisive factor. Did he really use the word “heretic”, I cannot find the exact quote or page.

  • Martin Horan

    An excellent article. I too am totally a premillenialist and pre-Tribulation believer. Vernon stated that “No-one seems to understand that the Rapture is signless.” I’ve gone to several churches and few of the members in most of them have never heard of the Rapture–pre, mid or post. Some have and don’t believe in any of them and I have Christian friends who aren’t sure either way. I think that’s general the state of things in our British churches.
    Vernon’s article was a tonic. The replies have been too.
    As my wife and I rarely get to church, and the Christians we know aren’t really interested in the things discussed above, I’d just like to thank everyone involved who’s contended very well for the pre-Trib Rapture. Hopefully it won’t be too long when we’re all introducing ourselves either before, during, or after the Marriage Feast!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Holly

    >> May I ask what page number that Prasch said pre-trib believers were heretics?

    It’s right in the front of the book somewhere, I will go and read to find it for you, I didn’t mark it, unfortunately.

    [Edited: Ok, here it is… Here is is talking about going through the tribulation: Jacob Prasch says: “Jesus Himself warned us of false Christs and false prophets in the Olivet Discourse, yet just as Preterists falsely teach it not longer applies to Christians because it has all (instead of partially) transpired in the events surrounding A.D. 70, Pre-Tribulationsists are left agreeing with them that it does not apply to us because we have already been raptured before the Antichrist and False Prophet become and issue.” —Shadows of the Beast, Jacob Prasch, pg. 20 [Emphasis added]

    So here he calls us false prophets.]

    [Edited: Here he says, “The rapture and resurrestion cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation Chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth with must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect —Shadows of the Beast, Jacob Prasch, pg. 21 [Emphasis added]

    Here he is saying we are not the Elect, we are false Christians, false prophets.]

    I’ll continue looking for other places where he basically calls us heretics

    [Edited: I am battling to find it, I know I read more. I can’t be going mad. Chris even read it, because I discussed this very matter with him over the phone and he too was shocked by it (as you can see based on his comment)

    ***** VERY IMPORTANT!!***** [Edited: Actually I told Chris over the phone that Jacob Prasch is basically insinuating that we are heretics because he calls us false Christs and false prophets and unbelievers deceiving the Elect. What on earth is a false Christ/false Prophet if it is not a heretic?]

  • Colin Ford

    I occasionally find time to look on to this site, probably because it is on my desktop.
    It is too fast moving for me so I may sometimes not pick up the thread, as quick as perhaps I should.
    In between my work and other commitments, occasionally I see something that rings an alarm bell! I do say this WITHOUT a spirit of antagonism, however.
    I noticed that a contributor that goes by the name of ‘Redeemed’ would appear to oppose the very words of the Lord Jesus.
    He quotes,’ We do not strive to enter the narrow gate’.
    Yet does not the Lord say ‘Strive to enter in by the narrow door'; Luke 13.24 RV. Or ‘gate’ if you read the AV?
    He is indeed correct when he says that ‘His yoke is easy, His burden light’.
    However these are not contradictory Scriptures!
    Read Psalm 19.7; ‘The law of the Lord is perfect,restoring the soul’.
    The commandments are indeed NOT burdensome.
    It is the ceremonial law that has been ‘Done away with’, NOT the moral law.
    There are many today whom drive a wedge the size of Africa between ‘Law’ and ‘Grace’.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris you can at least please answer me on the other stuff, regarding the Corinth church where you believe they were all Christians, yet the bible does not say that.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    IF YOU FIND THAT YOUR COMMENT IS NOT HERE – IT HAS BEEN MOVED TO HERE: Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

  • Chris

    Deborah
    Allow me to at least answer you regarding the person in 1 Cor. 5-7 as per your request

    On 15 November 2012 when you quoted 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 you seem not to understand the proper meaning of the wording and even changed the meaning in verse 11. Then you fail to see the total meaning of verse 12-13

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13
    9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people.
    10 In no way did I mean the immoral people of this world, or the greedy and swindlers and idolaters, since you would then have to go out of the world.

    Look at verse 10 Paul says here: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. Simply put Paul is saying that he has written to them not to keep company with fornicators OF THIS WORLD. (These are obviously not Christians, because he refers to the world here.)
    11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolater, or verbally abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.
    But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

    The Bible says “one who IS called a brother” vs what you say “who calls himself a brother” There is a huge difference here. Obviously one who is called a brother is a brother.
    The Greek word for “called” is” Onomadzo” and means named, assigned etc. He was named and assigned a brother – he did not give himself the title.

    Deborah look carefully at verse 11 it starts with the word BUT NOW Paul is writing to them also not to keep company with one who is called a brother. He distinguishes between keeping company with fornicators in the WORLD in verse 10 and fornicating brothers in verse 11.

    One does not compromise by keeping company with a brother who is a fornicator the rule is the same for fornicators of the world and fornicators inside the Church. The one in the world is not a Christian but the one in verse 11 is.
    12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Are you not to judge those inside?
    13 But God will judge those outside. Remove the evil person from among you.

    Verses 12 -13 Yes God will judge those on the outside and the church was to judge those on the inside. The judgment of the church on the inside is to get rid of the evil person while God’s judgment will be on those outside the church. This accentuates and supports verses 10 and 11 where there is a clear difference between the fornicators of the world and fornication on the inside.

    Verse 12 fits in perfectly with verse 10 those on the outside are the immoral people of this world and Paul says that he is not talking about them, because God will judge them not the church. The church may only judge those on the inside.

    This verse also supports another verse in the very next chapter – 1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

    You say:” They are not disobedient believers, they are not Christians.”

    No Deborah those on the outside are not Christian but those on the inside are and they are to be judged. The judgment is between the brethren and the word false does not precede the word brethren in 1 Cor6:5 nor does this verse say those who call themselves Christians as they were named and assigned the title of being brethren.
    You may believe what you want this is that way I read the Scriptures and if I am wrong I will stand accountable before the Lord and so will you –PLEASE look at this carefully

  • Miia Sten

    I have been reading your pages for a couple of years now but haven’t written anything before.
    Firstly, I want to thank you for your articles on pretrib subject, Deborah. I have been a believer over thirty years but if I ever heard anybody teaching on end times it was from posttrib view.

    After studying the subject I have seen that Rapture before tribulation is clearly the one Bible is speaking about. Actually, the thought that I’m not waiting anymore A-C but Jesus who can come back ANY minute is a huge relief and really a blessed hope for me, too. It has changed my attitude in many ways!

    But now when I’m reading my Bible, there are some questions, because I don’t anymore see the passages like I used to.

    I hope somebody would find time to answer me. Also I remind you that English is not my mother tongue, so I might use wrong terms, so excuse me.

    1. I don’t understand Rev 20:4-6 :And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Why is this called the first resurrection? Wasn’t the first resurrection in the beginning of the Rapture when all who had died in Christ resurrected? And why does it say ”the rest of the dead lived not again…”
    Here it also seems that only the martyrs (of Tribulation) are priest for thousand years with Jesus. What about those who were raptured?
    This passage confuses me totally.

    2. I thought before that there is only one Judgement after Christ comes back. But there are two? First one (Bema) after Rapture for saints and second the so called White Throne Judgement. For whom is the second? For everybody? For those who were raptured, for the martyrs and those who didn’t take the mark of the beast during tribulation and for those whose names are not in the Book of Life?
    And does Matt. 25 (sheep and goats) speak about the White Throne Judgement?

    I actually have quite a few questions but maybe if I get answers to these then it is easier to see which questions are relevant.

    Thank you once more for your good articles! I hope I can encourage you in your work since somebody even here close to the Arctic Circle is so blessed as I’m on your teaching !

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Miia

    Thank you for your comment! Very much appreciated :)

    >>1. I don’t understand Rev 20:4-6 :And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    >>Why is this called the first resurrection? Wasn’t the first resurrection in the beginning of the Rapture when all who had died in Christ resurrected? And why does it say ”the rest of the dead lived not again…”
    >>Here it also seems that only the martyrs (of Tribulation) are priest for thousand years with Jesus.

    Yes, these are people who come out of the tribulation.

    >> What about those who were raptured?

    We come back with Jesus at His Second Coming

    >> I thought before that there is only one Judgement after Christ comes back. But there are two? First one (Bema) after Rapture for saints and second the so called White Throne Judgement. For whom is the second? For everybody?

    Yip, the Bema seat is for Raptured saints, we then go to the wedding feast there after and stay in heaven for 7 years.
    The second one in call the throne of Judgement for the wicked.

    >>Why is this called the first resurrection? Wasn’t the first resurrection in the beginning of the Rapture when all who had died in Christ resurrected? And why does it say ”the rest of the dead lived not again…”

    I’m just going to write this out from Henry Ironside:

    The First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6)

    In the present dispensation of grace, those who will live godly in Christ Jesus suffer persecution; righteousness suffers. But in the millennium righteousness will reign. “A king shall reign in righteousness” (Isaiah 32:1). In the eternal state, which follows the millennium, righteousness will dwell. It will be at home, and every adverse thing will be forever banished from the new heavens and the new earth.

    Daniel prophesied of the time coming when “the saints … shall possess the kingdom” (7:18). The words of Revelation 20:4 agree with this: “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast … and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” We have here, if I understand the passage correctly, the last cohort of the first resurrection. Our Lord Himself, the saints raised at the rapture of the church, and the witnessing remnant that were slain and raised up in the seventieth week of Daniel all share in the “administration of the fullness of the seasons.” This is how the late William Kelly translated the expression rendered in our Bibles “the dispensation of the fullness of times” (Ephesians 1:10). These saints appear in glory with the Lord. But we are not to understand that either He or they are to return to earth to live. Their relationship to the earth will be, I presume, very much like that of the angels in the patriarchal dispensation. They will be able to appear and disappear at will and exercise a benevolent oversight on behalf of those who live in this world. “Unto the angels hath he not put into subjection the world to come, whereof we speak” (Hebrews 2:5). That world will be subjected to the Son of man, and all who have shared with Him in His rejection will be associated with Him. These are the throne-sitters first mentioned. With them will be the rest of the tribulation saints, who will suffer death rather than deny their God in the awful days of antichrist’s ascendancy. Their rapture will be when the Lord appears for the establishment of the kingdom.

    “But the rest of the dead, lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:5). This does not militate against the teaching already advanced. The first cohort of the first resurrection will be summoned from their graves prior to the tribulation period and the second in the midst of that time of trouble. We have here a summary. All of these classes together make up the first resurrection-the resurrection of life, which is thus distinguished from the resurrection of judgment. Between these two will elapse the entire millennial age. The unsaved will remain in their graves until the heavens and the earth pass away. Their souls in Hades (erroneously rendered “hell” in some versions, but really the state between death and resurrection) and their bodies in the grave, they await the day of judgment at the end of time.

    “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years” (6, italics added). This is the kingdom described in such glowing terms by Isaiah. —Dr Henry Ironside

    I hope that helps some.

  • Al C

    Someone stated above that “With regards to the rapture we need to distinguish between God’s wrath and the wrath of Satan.”

    The wrath of God is evident in the opening of the seals. Just because we’re told in Rev 12:12 that Satan has come upon the earth with great wrath does not imply that God’s wrath isn’t present as well. The prewrath & posttrib camps fail on this argument by reading their presuppositions into the text.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Al C

    >> The wrath of God is evident in the opening of the seals. Just because we’re told in Rev 12:12 that Satan has come upon the earth with great wrath does not imply that God’s wrath isn’t present as well. The prewrath & posttrib camps fail on this argument by reading their presuppositions into the text.

    EXACTLY!!! The whole Tribulation is God’s WRATH on mankind, it just gets progressively worse and worse till you enter the Great Tribulation where God releases all His wrath on mankind.

  • Don Wohlers

    After reading the article and some of the post, I have a question. How do we explain Pauls writing to the Thessalonians (2 Thess. 2:1-4)? Then if we compare that with Matt. 24:15 where the “When you” is speaking to the Believers. And continue with and compare Matt. 24:29-30, Mark 13:24-25 and Rev. 6:12-13 finding a description of what is happening with the heavens right?. Now read Matt. 24:31, Mark 13:26-27 and what does that say? And at last, read Rev. 6:17 “For the great day of HIS WRATH has come and who is able to stand” As believers, we will not suffer HIS WRATH. I have many more verses to work with but to me this shows the rapture to happen at about the time of the sixth seal, not pre-trib. Please start with my first question and I think the rest of the post explains it well.
    In His service
    DFW

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Don Wohler

    Please read all articles and ALL comments here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/all-keywords/rapture-caught-up-the-first-resurrection/
    I don’t have time to answer your question right now, whatever your question actually is… but I am sure it has been answered already so please read everything.

  • Al C

    The Greek grammar used in Rev 6:17 usually denotes past tense although there are some exceptions. Posties and prewrathers will say that the context determines whether it is past or future. Here’s some context: Peace & safety has been taken away at the 2nd seal. Contrast that with 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Matt 24:21. Then compare the 4 judgments in the 4th seal – famine, pestilence, sword and beasts – with Ezekiel 5 and 14:21. All these are called God’s judgments and wrath. If these 4 judgments were God’s wrath in the Old Testament and He unleashes them onto the world by opening the 4th seal, then how can one deny that this is God’s wrath prior to the 6th seal? And how can God’s wrath occur after a time stated to be the worst there was or ever will be?

    Both Matthew & Mark say the moon will not give its light whereas Rev 6:12 has a blood-moon. Perhaps we shouldn’t assume that it’s the same event. Matt 24:31 should be understood in light of passages relating to the final gathering of Israel, such as Deut 30:4; Isaiah 11:12 and Isa 27:12-13. Another problem is the fact that Christ said He would not return until Israel asks Him (Hos 5:15 & Mat 23:37-39). Non pretribbers insist that the 2nd coming and rapture are one event where every eye will see Him (Rev 1:7). But if there’s only one coming event where every eye will see him and it can only occur when Israel pleads with Him, then why aren’t Israel raptured as well?

  • Daphne

    There is only one truth: either He is coming one time or He is coming twice. One of these are a lie.

    Luke 17:22—And he said unto the disciples, the days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    Desire to see one of the days as if there are suppose to be two or more days concerning the day Jesus comes.

    Luke 17:26–And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it also be in the days of the Son of Man.

    Luke 17:27…The Day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    Luke 17:28,29—Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; …But the Same Day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    Did you notice the flood came the same day Noah entered the ark and the fire and brimstone came from heaven the same day Lot left Sodom.

    The good were saved the same day the wicked were destroyed.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Daphne

    >> There is only one truth: either He is coming one time or He is coming twice. One of these are a lie.

    Jesus does not come down when the Rapture happens, WE GO UP!

    >> Did you notice the flood came the same day Noah entered the ark and the fire and brimstone came from heaven the same day Lot left Sodom.
    >> The good were saved the same day the wicked were destroyed.

    The start of the Tribulation the START of Gods Wrath on mankind.

  • Al C

    Daphne says “There is only one truth: either He is coming one time or He is coming twice. One of these are a lie.”

    First of all perhaps you can supply the verse that tells us that He is coming only once. If you’re a prewrather you might like to explain why the Lamb is back in heaven after the rapture (Rev 7) then appears again at Rev 19:11. If you’re posttrib then I’d like to know why He came secretly at the 7th trump and then again at Rev 19:11.

  • Daphne

    Hi Al,

    Al said, “First of all perhaps you can supply the verse that tells us that He is coming only once.”

    Hebrew 9:28—So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Second = Strong’s G1208: the second, the other of two.

    Nowhere at anytime in scripture is His coming/appearing a plural event.

    Al said, “If you’re a prewrather you might like to explain why the Lamb is back in heaven after the rapture (Rev 7) then appears again at Rev 19:11.”

    If you are saying the rapture is in Rev 7 you should read the whole chapter especially Rev. 7:13 and 14—And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, WHAT ARE THESE which are arrayed in white robes? AND WHENCE CAME THEY? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    In order for you to be raptured up into this group you will have been martyred during the tribulation. These martyred people along with the dead in Christ are the saints that Jesus brings with him at His onetime appearing.
    1 Th 3:13—To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming (singular) of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.

    2 Ti 4:1—I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick (alive) and the dead at his appearing (singular) and his kingdom;

    2 Ti 4:8—Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing (singular).

    Al said, “If you’re posttrib then I’d like to know why He came secretly at the 7th trump and then again at Rev 19:11.”

    I thought pretribbers didn’t believe Jesus come for them at the 7th trump (last trump of Rev) because they say it isn’t the same trumpet Paul spoke of in 1 Cr 15:52? And if you are saying that the seventh trump is the call of the rapture then you must know that when the seventh angel sounds the nations are angry because they know God’s wrath has come and that it is time for the dead to be judged (Rev 11:18). Doesn’t really sound like a secret to me if the nations are mad. They must know what’s going on.

    Rev 11:18—And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Rev. 22:12—And behold, I come (singular) quickly; and my reward is with me, to give EVERYMAN according to his work shall be.

    Blessings,
    Daphne

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Daphne

    >> Rev. 7:13 and 14—And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, WHAT ARE THESE which are arrayed in white robes? AND WHENCE CAME THEY? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Um, nooo… this group is not raptured… these people are standing before the throne of God ON EARTH and will enter the Millennial kingdom.

  • Daphne

    Deborah said, “Um, nooo… this group is not raptured… these people are standing before the throne of God ON EARTH and will enter the Millennial kingdom.”

    In the beginning of chapter 7 the four angels are told not to hurt the earth until the 144,000 are sealed. Aren’t the 144,000 sealed at the beginning of the tribulation, soon after, or around the same time as the pretrib rapture? If not then why would they have to be sealed to be on earth with Jesus and the Martyrs?

  • Daphne

    I see in comment 11 where you explain. I’ll get back to you on that.

  • Daphne

    Deborah in response to comment 73 I know now what your take is on the 144,000 so please disregard my comment concerning that. Instead I am commenting on what you posted in comment 11 that Let Us Reason had to say. All statements from the excerpt are marked with quotation marks and for quick reference I have also placed a link in my comment to that site.
    http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp46.htm

    “In Revelation 7, we are introduced to a special group of believers who are called “the servants of our God” (Revelation 7:3). They are sealed by God for ministry before the 7th seal is opened. This number is exact of a certain group of people – the Jews, 12,000 from 12 tribes (Rev.7:4).”

    “The 144,000 are not sealed to become Israel but are sealed OUT OF Israel. The Bible tells us these men from the 12 tribes of Israel who will be evangelists to the world during the Tribulation period.”

    If the 144,000 are to do ministry throughout the entire 7 years (tribulation period) and the tribulation starts with the first seal then why are they not sealed before all the seals but one are opened? It seems to me it’s kind of late for them to be sealed after the sixth seal is opened i.e. before the seventh seal is opened, because undoubtedly after the sixth seal is opened Jesus is in full view because the kings of the earth and great men are saying to the mountains and rocks to fall on them to hide them from him that sits on the throne because it is the great day of his wrath (Rev 6:12-17). It is not possible that the wrath (tribulation) of God starts at the opening of the first seal and then starts again at the opening of the seventh seal: is it?

    “The 144,000 Jews appear to be on the earth throughout the complete tribulation period as they are sealed for doing ministry. Being sent throughout the world they might be in the city of Petra (Bozrah) when Israel flees at the second half of the Tribulation (Rev.12).”

    If these 144,000 are to evangelize to the world during the tribulation period then why would they all go to Petra about the time the antichrist shows his face? What about all the other people in danger of taking the mark in the rest of the nations?

    “The 144,000 will be saved men that will give faithful witness to Jesus Christ- they are His Jewish witnesses in the Tribulation period.”

    “These are later referred to (Revelation 14:4) as the “firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”. They will be the first to come to Christ as Saviour in the Tribulation period.”

    They will be the first to come to Christ as Savior in the tribulation period? Why would I be “raptured” before the tribulation and before these people who have never had sex or said a curse word? Although these people might be Jews undoubtedly they are Christians: Christians without fault. We know this because they follow the Lamb wherever He goes (Rev 14:4) and only Christians follow Christ. Not to mention anytime firstfruits are mentioned in the Old Testament it is reference to the cream of the crop gathered before the main harvest and offered to God the Father. As a Christian Gentile I certainly can’t compete with them and by no means do I deserve to see Jesus before they do.

    I don’t know if you are right or not about the group being on earth in Rev 7 so I can’t say. The only reason I even used the word rapture in correlation with chapter 7 was in response to Al’s question: “If you’re a prewrather you might like to explain why the Lamb is back in heaven after the rapture (Rev 7) then appears again at Rev 19:11.”

    Daphne

  • Al C

    Daphne, Heb 9:28 does not preclude a rapture event and the second coming at Rev 19:11. Prewrathers will point out that that “eagerly awaited” “second time” occurs after the 6th seal (at Rev 7) and posties at the 7th trumpet; yet they still have THE second coming at Rev 19:11. Can you see the problem?

    To clarify, I didn’t say there was a rapture at the 7th seal or at the 7th trumpet. I don’t believe the rapture occurs in either place. Prewrathers actually have multiple comings (see Van Kampen and Cooper). BTW, you didn’t say what your rapture view was or I missed it.

    Whatever the case, you may want to consider this: Matt 24:37-39 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 inform us that the coming of the son of man and the day of the Lord will occur during a “business as usual” period and when people are experiencing peace and safety. Yet peace is taken away at the 2nd seal and 1/4 of the earth’s population is killed at the 4th. We’re also told in Matt 24:21 that this is the worst time there ever was or ever will be.

    Isn’t that a contradiction if all this occurs before the day of the Lord or Christ’s second coming? And how can God’s wrath occur after the worst period in history (v 21)?

    This can only be reconciled by a two-phase event.

  • Daphne

    I hadn’t forgot about you Al. I’ve just been busy. This is a tough subject and I need to do more study. It may be a couple of more days but I will get back to you. Thanks for your patience.

  • Martin Horan

    Debs. I haven’t looked on this part of DTW since my last comment. Boy, am I learning from you from what I overlooked on my cursory dips into Moriel!
    How on earth do Preterists end up agreeing with us Pre-tribbers because we believe we won’t be around before Anti-Christ is an issue?
    This argument is not even logical. Or is there something I’m missing here?
    What does Jacob Prasch mean by that? He admits that the Preterists falsely teach that they think the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD. And then he states that we Pre-tribbers agree with them because we won’t be around at the time of the Anti-Christ.
    Pre-tribbers do not believe that the Olivet Prophecy was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Matt 24:20 makes that very clear it wasn’t. There again, maybe the Lord was joking when He spoke that sentence, or lied or didn’t know what He was talking about.
    Don’t think so!
    He was telling the truth and Pre-tribbers all believe that He was. I don’t know how Preterists can get around that one. There have been much worse times in history since the destruction of Jerusalem. The Crusades, the Inquisition and the Holocaust are a mere three examples.
    Preterists do not believe in the Rapture [2 Pet 3:4] and some of them (Dominionists) are not even expecting Christ to come until Christians take the world for Christ.
    We know that Scripture has to be talking about people who claim to be Christians because they are showing they have knowledge of the fathers and of the promise of His coming. Pagans, atheists and agnostics do not know of those things.
    So how can Preterists and Pre-tribbers be agreeing? Do you understand what Jacob Prasch is saying, Debs? I’d appreciate an explanation because I don’t get it. Maybe there’s something I’m just missing.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Martin

    >> So how can Preterists and Pre-tribbers be agreeing? Do you understand what Jacob Prasch is saying, Debs?

    No I can’t help you Martin, because Jacob Prasch is talking absolute nonsense. I think it boils down to not understanding the doctrine of Pre-trib, JP does not understand it and therefore can make wild accusations like this.

  • Redeemed

    Martin, you have just unearthed another nugget of fool’s gold in JP’s teaching. You aren’t missing a thing, you are very perceptive.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Do you notice how God does things?
    How everything in the Bible fits together?

    Six thousand years ago God created Mankind.
    He took Six literal 24 hours days.
    Then He rested on the seventh day.

    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    Revelation 20:2-6
    (2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    (3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    (4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Do you realize that the Sixth day is drawing close to midnight and very soon the Seventh Day (Millennium) is going to Dawn?
    Do you realize that the Angel is ready to blow the trumpet that marks the closing of the Sixth Day and the beginning of the seventh Day(minus the 70th week of Jacob aka the 7 year tribulation) during which Christ (God) is going to rest while Satan is bound?

    Let’s get ready.
    P.S. We are not date setters for “No one knoweth the day nor the hour, save The Father in Heaven”.

  • Colin Ford

    Martin,
    If you may allow me to give my humble opinion on Jacob Prasch’s comment.
    I believe that he was merely only identifying preterism with pre-tribulationism on the basis that they both share a common belief that they won’t be around when the Antichrist is doing his evil work.
    Preterism asserts this historically (all things have been fulfilled), and Pre-trib does so futuristically?
    Of course I can well understand that one who holds to pre-trib would not like this association.

  • Martin Horan

    Thanks Debs for your common-sense statements; and thanks Redeemed for your kind ones. I thought I was going bananas as I couldn’t get those things to compute. Phew!

  • Redeemed

    Paul, a hearty AMEN!

  • John E

    Why have you not posted my comment with the video I submitted?
    I thought this site was about information, discussion and openness.
    You have posted the views of others who do not agree with your pre-trib rapture viewpoint.
    Censoring the comments of others is not necessary when we have the Holy Spirit; as long as you are not personally writing what I am sure you believe is heresy.
    Don’t you say that the Holy Spirit will confirm the truth to a believer?
    Then why the fear?
    I say, put it out there and let the commenting begin.

    [Edited by DTW: Nice try, but not everyone has the Holy Spirit, we are in the last days where APOSTASY abounds. I have discussed the Rapture over and over and over in the comments section of all these articles: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/all-keywords/rapture-caught-up-the-first-resurrection/ – I don’t need to start a discussion all over again. And lastly, I reserve the right to not have false teaching plastered all over my website – thank you! :) ]

  • Harry

    Just another thought on the “generation” in Mat:24, budding of fig tree.
    Genesis 15:13-16 (NASB)
    13 God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
    14 “But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
    15 “As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
    16 “Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    Hmmmmmm a generation here is 100 years…

    OHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOO – I can’t wait that long LOL ;P

  • Harry

    I just pointed out the hundred years to say we can’t try and pin the time down to closely. What we do know because of all the scriptures being fulfilled is that Jesus could come at any moment. That was not true when the Book of Revelation was written because Israel did not exist as a nation. However, ever since Israel be came a nation the hourglass so to speak was turned over.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Harry

    I know :) I was just pulling yer leg. But sooner is always better.

  • I have done a long hard study on what a generation is if ya’ll care to look at it. You can start with the link below. What is have written is not a repeat of the things you may have read concerning a generation before.

    http://numberofhisname.blogspot.com/p/a-generationdeciphered-in-these-last.html

    At the bottom of each article is a link to take you to the next article.

    PS: Al, I still have not forgot about you. I have been really busy with my blog and such!

  • BarbaraW

    Hi-

    I’m new to this site and was drawn to this discussion because of the explosion of anti-rapturism in these last days.

    My husband and I have been discussing to what extent opposing the rapture might affect other beliefs a person holds. We agree that salvation is not dependent upon belief in the rapture, but lack of a deep understanding of salvation appears to lead to denial of the rapture.

    ANY qualification regarding inclusion in the rapture apart from faith in the finished work of Christ adds man’s effort to the equation. Surely we don’t want to crack THAT door!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BarbaraW

    >> We agree that salvation is not dependent upon belief in the rapture, but lack of a deep understanding of salvation appears to lead to denial of the rapture.

    You are so right, it’s all about genuine FAITH and a genuine RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ, i.e., a genuine Christian.

    I have noticed on this blog that every single person (and there have been a few hundred I can tell you that) that has come to attack pre-trib have 1 or 2 factors 1) they are leaning towards Catholicism (sometimes they themselves don’t even known it) or 2) they are anti-semetic.

  • Redeemed

    Barbara W., welcome!

    Yes, the pretrib rapture is under attack today as never before. In fact, there are many false teachings going around concerning the Rapture such as the Partial Rapture, Prewrath, and of course the Amills.

    A big factor is the rejection of and attemtp to discredit dispensational teaching – that is balanced and biblical dispensational theology/eschatology. It is the only way to rightly divide the Word and explain God’s timeline for this world. You are absolutely right, one’s stance on eschatology IS connected to one’s belief system.

  • BarbaraW

    Redeemed wrote:

    A big factor is the rejection of and attemtp to discredit dispensational teaching – that is balanced and biblical dispensational theology/eschatology. It is the only way to rightly divide the Word and explain God’s timeline for this world. You are absolutely right, one’s stance on eschatology IS connected to one’s belief system.

    I’ve noticed rampant anti-dispensationalism as well.

    I guess my real question is how to approach people who deny the rapture, yet call themselves believers. I’m having an increasingly hard time accepting someone’s declaration of faith at face value, given the level of apostacy in the church.

  • Redeemed

    Barbara, IMHO you don’t start with eschatology unless it is just a fishing expedition to see where they are coming from. Messed up eschatology is only a symptom of a deeper doctrinal problem.

    Start with the basics as to whether or not they are truly a believer and what they base their belief upon, the fundamentals. Then one can go from there. It is like treating a disease – you have to find the root cause.

    As for dispensational critics, they seem to make a whipping boy out of Darby and drag up Margaret McDonald. It is good to verse oneself on this topic and arm yourself with facts to overcome the lies.

    My personal favorite is H.A. Ironside and I also like Clarence Larkin for eschatology. You have to search for their books because they have largely been forgotten. I don’t trust living authors in this apostasy. They are sold out to someone somewhere. There may be exceptions, but they aren’t into writing and selling books and are usually nondescript.

    There ain’t ordinary times and the status quo won’t fill the bill. Sounds like you have a good grasp on what is going on. Take care and God bless!

  • John Chingford

    re comment 92

    Hi Barbara

    I agree with you.

    What I have observed is that those who believe in a rapture BUT NOT the pretrib rapture usually teach arminianism, ie that you can lose your salvation. They have no assurance of faith.

    However, those who entirely oppose the rapture are anti semitic, dominionists and hold onto a catholic form of calvinism or ARE catholics. None of these have assurance of faith either and are mixed up with real apostate groups.

  • BarbaraW

    Redeemed wrote:

    Barbara, IMHO you don’t start with eschatology unless it is just a fishing expedition to see where they are coming from. Messed up eschatology is only a symptom of a deeper doctrinal problem.

    Thanks for your input, Redeemed. My question arose from conversation self-declared believers who, when discussion veers toward the rapture, either don’t believe in immanence or express outright rejection of the whole concept. Once their stance is clear, it’s hard to know how to get them to realize the urgency of the times, because, as you say, the problem is much deeper than their faulty eschatology.

    My personal favorite is H.A. Ironside and I also like Clarence Larkin for eschatology.

    I’ve not read Ironside, but have been a fan of Larkin for over 35 years. Currently, I am finishing Pentecost’s Things to Come, am working my way through Peters’ Theocratic Kingdom, and have just started Bullinger’s Apocalypse, all of which I recommend.

    What a privilege to live at such a time as this!

  • BarbaraW

    John Chingford wrote:

    …those who entirely oppose the rapture are anti semitic, dominionists and hold onto a catholic form of calvinism or ARE catholics…

    Thanks for responding, John. The group I seem to be encountering online identify themselves as “overcomers,” certain they will experience at least part of the Tribulation and not certain if they “qualify” as part of the Bride.

    Something to ponder: Would those who deny the rapture go so far as to assert that only the dead in Christ can/will avoid the Tribulation? That brings to mind Rev 9:6 “And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”

  • Redeemed

    Reply to Barbara W. # 95

    I have loved ones who absolutely deny there is a Rapture. They are amill. They believe that immersion baptism is essential to salvation – baptismal regeneration – and they don’t believe in the eternal security of the believer. They would call themselves fundamentalists, and are opposed to Roman Catholicism and other groups who either don’t believe there will be a rapture or have some twisted form of eschatology.

    They don’t fit the mold presented here. But there are similarities in that they believe in a works salvation, although they would not consider baptism as a work. And they believe that if one strays over some imaginary line that one will lose one’s salvation – again a form of works-oriented salvation.

    One clue to their other false doctrine is their belief there will not be a rapture. Then you take it deeper and find the other error.

  • Ms.Thang

    [delete]

  • Nick Smart

    I could leave a lot of scathing comments but your whole website smacks of a poor reflection on people. you are based in America and dont know some of the people you are slandering. The readers of your pages are left a confusing message about the gospel. I pray you preach the gospel and leave the judgement of fellow humans to God as vengeance is mine saith the Lord. Read the word and see that you are to love your brother as youself so as you critisize other born again believers you are critisising Christ and i pray He has mercy on you as He dwells and lives in believers. This is a sick and disgusting site and i will do my utmost to warn others. If i could i would ask God to trash it. If you cant see the good in you brother then shut up. If you really love God you would love your brother and go and see him in love and discuss the issue. Stop putting out a website that destroys young Christians and only publish good things like what God has done for you lately like set you free from sin and death. You were given a free gift from heaven called Jesus and the gospel of grace that Paul taught. Go and preach this or shut up. I say this with all sincerety as this kind of behaviour is what the devil loves to use to bring disunity in the body , and Almighty God will build His church without your comments of negativity.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nick Smart

    >> I could leave a lot of scathing comments but your whole website smacks of a poor reflection on people

    Please do, join the rest of all those ‘professing’ Christians out there.

    >> You are based in America and dont know some of the people you are slandering.

    Really? Are you Smart or what! We are not from America Nicky-poo we are from South Africa.

    Please read this article: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/09/love-covers-all-transgressions-2/

    >> Go and preach this or shut up.

    Is that the words that Jesus expects to come out of the mouth of a Christian? Hmmmm.. I don’t think so.

  • Sharon

    The Holy Spirit dwells in ALL of the saved people FOREVER. When the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth we will go where HE will go. Being caught away, the rapture as we call it is NOT based on our works. We were NOT saved by our works. We are NOT kept saved by our works. Our going up in the Rapture is NOT determined by our works.

    God has many disobedient kids. But where in scripture does it state that God is going to leave part of the Church here below for the Tribulation? Even the disobedient kids are a part of the Bride of Christ. When the marriage of the Lamb takes place is he marrying 1/2 of a Bride because the disobedient ones didn’t go up? Maybe only 1/4 of the Bride? See how silly that sounds! The whole, true church will go up. The dead in Christ will rise first and I’m sure some of those were disobedient kids. But their bodies will arise from their burial place and then we, the living, will go up with them to meet our Beautiful Savior in the air!

    Too much emphasis on what we think the rapture will be like. Scripture tells us so we don’t have to just wonder. The Apostle Paul talked a lot about this. Look it up and believe it literally. Hint…it’s in one of the Books to the Thessalonians.

    Chris wrote:

    Deborah regarding your statement “How do you know you are obedient enough to make it into the rapture?”
    Lets take ONLY one example: in 1 Cor. 5 and 6 we read about fornication that took place amongst the believers that was not even evident amongst the gentiles.
    1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

    This person according to Paul should be removed from amongst them;

    Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

    It is obvious that this person was recognized as a believer and a clear distinction is made here that this sin was not even amongst the gentiles or heathen peoples.

    I am sure that you will agree with me that in today’s terms a disobedient believer doing the same would not qualify for the rapture.

  • Hi Debs. Does Nick merely smart at the truth? Nick doesn’t seem to know the difference between contending for the faith or attacking people.
    The first is what we are commanded to do in Scripture [Jude 3] and the other (warned against in 1 Pet 3:9, 2 Pet 2:10-12 & 1 Tim 6:4) is merely getting personal because we cannot answer truthfully. And the latter usually includes emotive terms–a further indication that such an answer is not even logical.
    So Nick’s smarting but far from smart comments show his to be the latter.
    I am glad to see that you are still doing as you always do, Debs: contending for the faith while taking the flack that goes with it.
    Thanks for doing us that service. You’re in my thoughts and prayers as always. May God bless you and keep you contending!

  • Nick Smart

    You must be an ecumenist who loves to include all kinds of “goggas” (bugs) in your religion. Well, just go ahead and see where it leads you – right into the gaping jaws of the Beast (Antichrist).

    No Nick, what we want to see in our brothers and sisters is not “the good” as you say but Jesus Christ Himself. And guess what? He warned us not to allow ourselves to be misled by anyone (Matthew 24:3).

    Nick Smart wrote:

    Stop putting out a website that destroys young Christians and only publish good things like what God has done for you lately like set you free from sin and death.

    The reason why this blog is doing what it has been doing all along is to warn the young Christians against people like you who do not care whether they become involved in false doctrines or not. That’s not love. It’s a false love.

  • Sharon

    Chris, the verses you use 1st Corinthians 5:1 and so on are about “Church Discipline”. There is nothing to do with the Rapture of the church. I grew up in a Baptist Church where if it was needed, Church Discipline was done according to:

    Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
    Matthew18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
    Matthew18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
    Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

    If there was a church member that was living in open sin and there witnesses to the sin, then the process begins. The whole reason for Church Discipline is RESTORATION not destruction.
    Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

    In Matthew 18:15 above, it is talking about a BROTHER, a saved person. Like I have said before on this blog, God has many disobedient kids. He will get our attention when we disobey him. There have been only two times in my life that I had to vote someone out of membership in our church. The first time was one of my cousins. She was living in open sin. The deacons went and talked to her. She would not repent. It is a solemn thing to have to vote to “exclude” someone. But eventually she did repent and was voted back into full fellowship in our church. She was RESTORED. That is the goal.

    The second time I voted someone out of my church was a woman and her husband threatened and tried to kill my brother who was also my pastor at that time. The deacons tried their best to do what Matthew 18 says to do. She would not listen and would not let them talk to her husband. We, the membership, voted both of them out plus another woman who did some other things to my family at the time. We still had the goal of RESTORATION but that never happened. She grew more violent and broke into the church and did some filthy things there when no one was in the building but her. She damaged cars of the membership many times. She was arrested in the city we lived in and the city north of where we were also ended up having to arrest her. I doubt she, her husband and the other woman will ever repent. So what was bound on earth is bound in heaven. They will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ for why they had to be put out of a church.

    They, according to you would not go up in the Rapture because they are disobedient. That is not scriptural. You are believing in a Rapture based on good works. There are no scriptures to support that. If those people are truly saved they will go up in the Rapture. Where the Holy Spirit goes, we the saved go.

    Once the Rapture happens the focus here on Earth is no longer on the Church because we are all gone. The focus will be on Israel and the Jews. The Holy Spirit right now is the restrainer. But when we are gone all hell breaks out on earth for 7 years. Look in Revelation 4. John is told, “come up hither” a type of the rapture. The church is not mentioned any more after Revelation chapter 3. We will be outta here and so will the Holy Spirit be gone. Even so, come Lord Jesus!

  • Robbie

    Nick,
    Sorry mate. You are not going to get your ears tickled here. From your opinionated quotes it is clear that you are also paying someone to read and interpret scripture for you.

  • Carolyn

    Nick…I’m going to try and outsmart the Smart…here was your chance to defend the gospel, bring people from the outskirts of Christian belief into a knowledge of the God we serve and whaddya do? You use up your time attacking those who are trying to do just that. And then you try reverse psychology to try and make it look like they’re doing the accusing. Why don’t you progress from a professing Christian to a disciple of Christ? Don’t just talk the talk. Walk the walk. Get readin the words of Jesus and see what we are REALLY supposed to be doing.

    Debs, you said, “Really? Are you Smart or what! We are not from America Nicky-poo we are from South Africa.” You are a funny girl…giggle…

  • Sharon

    Deb-ster, I just reread this article. It is VERY GOOD. I hope we are the generation that hears our Lord say, “Come On Up Children!” Hallelujah! I think about the Rapture every day. Thanks for this great and exciting article. Sad that some think only the obedient saved go up. Where is the promise of the blessed hope in that belief?

  • Rascus

    In the Gospel of John….Jesus tells the disciples Exactly what day the Rapture will take place on…I do believe he tells them 3 or 4 times…..he tells them “on the last day I will raise you up”….so there we do know the exact day as told by Jesus himself…..”on the last day” at the last trump!. Sorry I forget the exact scriptures.

  • Rascus

    The Last Trumpet

    Is the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11: 15, the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15: 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 identical? Can one categorically declare that because it is identified as the “last trump” that it is the very last trumpet in point of time to be sounded? Even the staunchest mid-tribulationists admit that “last” can either refer to a sequential or a final time-out occurrence. It would be naive to say that the final whistle in a football match is the very last whistle for all football matches put together, jut because it is called the final whistle. For instance, is the trumpet call which Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24: 31 the same as the last trump mentioned in Revelation 11: 15? Hardly, because the trumpet call in Matthew 24: 31 will be sounded after His Second Coming when His angels are sent out to gather his elect (remnant of Israel) from the four corners of the earth, whilst the trumpets in Revelation are sounded before to his Second Advent. Therefore the trumpet in Revelation 11: 15 cannot be the very last trumpet because another one will be blown after His Second Advent.

    In their zeal to prove that the seventh trumpet in revelation 11: 15 is the very same as the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15: 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 the critics of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fail to acknowledge the obvious differences between the trumpets mentioned in the above portions of Scripture. The most significant difference between 1 Thessalonians 4; 16 (1 Corinthians 15: 52) and Revelation 11: 15 is that the latter is an angel’s trumpet whilst the other is called the trump of God. God alone can call the dead to life as we’ve seen in John 11 where Jesus called Lazarus to come forth form amongst the dead. Some may argue that a resurrection is mentioned in Revelation 11: 12 as well. However, the trumpet of the angel does not sound until after the resurrection whereas the trump of God in 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 is the very power that brings to life the dead in Christ.

  • Sharon

    You forgot the scriptures because there are none where Jesus told the disciples when he would return. No where in the four gospel does it say that Jesus knew the day. When asked about when he would return he said, Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    Only God the Father knows when he will look and His Son and say, Go claim your bride!
    There are hints in the gospels of the “times and seasons” but never are we told the exact day. May men and women have made down right stupid comments when they give a date. Balaam’s Donkey had more brains then them! They look stupid in the media, they bring shame on the Lord. Nope…when Jesus calls us up he will do so at our Father saying so.

    Rascus wrote:

    In the Gospel of John….Jesus tells the disciples Exactly what day the Rapture will take place on…I do believe he tells them 3 or 4 times…..he tells them “on the last day I will raise you up”….so there we do know the exact day as told by Jesus himself…..”on the last day” at the last trump!. Sorry I forget the exact scriptures.

  • Sharon wrote:

    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    Me thinks Jesus knows now of that day where He is seated at the right hand of God.

  • Sharon

    I don’t know about that. I only know what He said about that day being only known to the Father. Would it not change scripture to say that now He knows because He is at the Fathers right hand? All I know is He is coming soon. The rest I will go by what He said in His Word.

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Sharon wrote:

    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    Thomas wrote:

    Me thinks Jesus knows now of that day where He is seated at the right hand of God.

  • Redeemed

    Sharon and Thomas, I have always wondered about this verse and how the Father can know but the Son does not. But I take the Lord at His Word and this is something I have to receive by faith.

    I am just glad that the Father’s timing is perfect and that the Son will come for His Bride and take us home to be with Him forever.

    That is cause for rejoicing in this world where we are aliens and foreigners and long for our eternal home.

    And the Blessed Hope of Christ coming for His Church before all hell breaks loose on this planet is not escapism, it is comfort and peace.

  • Sharon,

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.(Php 2:6-11)

    This certainly expresses limitations on Jesus’ knowledge and affirms his humanity. In His Incarnation Jesus voluntary accepted human limitations, including the one mentioned in Mark 13:32, in submission to the Father’s will (John 4:34). These limitations no longer count where He is now seated at the right hand of God.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> This certainly expresses limitations on Jesus’ knowledge and affirms his humanity. In His Incarnation Jesus voluntary accepted human limitations, including the one mentioned in Mark 13:32, in submission to the Father’s will (John 4:34). These limitations no longer count where He is now seated at the right hand of God.

    And this make PERFECT sense :)

  • Redeemed

    The Scripture in question was spoken by our Lord Jesus when He was in human form. During that time, although he was fully God and fully man, He was in submission to the Father. That could indicate that He was not privy to the heavenly knowledge held by the Father at that time but now that He is seated in heaven He would have full knowledge.

    However, there is one thing that comes to mind. God is outside of time and the time of the Rapture had already been decided before Jesus came to the earth. Was that preknowledge put “on hold” during His time on earth?

    I don’t know that we can have a definitive answer to this question in our mortal minds that are limited and cannot know fully God’s ways. Although this is interesting to ponder, it seems to me that this could be a rabbit trail that we don’t need to stray down. The overridding fact is that He is coming and we need to be ready, waiting and watching and living to please Him and seeking to reach the lost. When we arrive in our heavenly, eternal home we will have all the answers to those kind of questions. And then it really won’t matter!

  • If Jesus is equal to the Father in every detail – omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient – then Jesus, now seated at the right hand of God the Father, must know when the Rapture will take place. Unless of course Philippians 2:6-8 is still applicable to Him where He is now seated at the right hand of God.

  • Sharon

    I have wondered also about this verse. But like you I still believe it even if I don’t understand it. Maybe as Thomas said, that since Jesus returned to the Father and sits at his right hand he also knows when. Maybe, Maybe not. I’m just not sure…yet

    Redeemed wrote:

    Sharon and Thomas, I have always wondered about this verse and how the Father can know but the Son does not. But I take the Lord at His Word and this is something I have to receive by faith.

    I am just glad that the Father’s timing is perfect and that the Son will come for His Bride and take us home to be with Him forever.

    That is cause for rejoicing in this world where we are aliens and foreigners and long for our eternal home.

    And the Blessed Hope of Christ coming for His Church before all hell breaks loose on this planet is not escapism, it is comfort and peace.

  • Sharon,

    Being not sure is to be a Berean and that is precisely what we all ought to be – Bereans who do not believe everything they hear but search the Scripture to make sure whether everything they hear is indeed Scriptural.

  • Sharon

    Absolutely! I am a Berean for sure. I told my Pastor just a couple weeks ago that while he is preaching my head is down. I said, I am listening, I hear you, but I am also quietly cross referencing scripture. I’ve told every Pastor I’ve had that also. My dad did the same thing so I figure he passed that on to me. So, I will find peace with this…..it might take me some time, but I will get the answer.

    Thanks Thomas

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Sharon,

    Being not sure is to be a Berean and that is precisely what we all ought to be – Bereans who do not believe everything they hear but search the Scripture to make sure whether everything they hear is indeed Scriptural.

  • Redeemed

    Thomas, being a Berean is testing something MAN says by the Scriptures to see if it is true because the Word of God is the ultimate authority. I can’t speak for Sharon, but she seems like a person who is a good Berean. As for myself, that is my desire as well.

    Here we are talking about a verse in the Bible, not something man said. There are things that we simply cannot understand in this life that have to be received by faith that are in the Word. We can study, look into context and endeavor to understand, but we have limitations because we cannot fully understand God’s ways. The Bible says that now we see through a glass darkly. The things that are necessary to salvation and living the Christian life are made clear.

    For instance, we can KNOW that our Lord is coming and that it will be prior to the Tribulation and full scale world-wide persecution of believers (pretrib}. That is our Blessed Hope and our motivation for living a life dedicated to Him.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Redeemed

    >> Here we are talking about a verse in the Bible, not something man said. There are things that we simply cannot understand in this life that have to be received by faith that are in the Word. We can study, look into context and endeavor to understand, but we have limitations because we cannot fully understand God’s ways. The Bible says that now we see through a glass darkly. The things that are necessary to salvation and living the Christian life are made clear.

    It’s not because we don’t understand God’s ways, if that was the case then we can apply this argument to everything we don’t understand and ‘false teachers’ can get away with murder. I believe there is an explanation to EVERYTHING in the bible, it’s just that we at this point in time are not understanding it’s meaning. That is why when we come across such issues we need to take the time to figure them out and if we pray and ask Jesus to give us understanding He will. :)

  • Thomas Lessing

    Redeemed wrote:

    Thomas, being a Berean is testing something MAN says by the Scriptures to see if it is true because the Word of God is the ultimate authority. I can’t speak for Sharon, but she seems like a person who is a good Berean. As for myself, that is my desire as well.

    Here we are talking about a verse in the Bible, not something man said. There are things that we simply cannot understand in this life that have to be received by faith that are in the Word. We can study, look into context and endeavor to understand, but we have limitations because we cannot fully understand God’s ways. The Bible says that now we see through a glass darkly. The things that are necessary to salvation and living the Christian life are made clear.

    For instance, we can KNOW that our Lord is coming and that it will be prior to the Tribulation and full scale world-wide persecution of believers (pretrib}. That is our Blessed Hope and our motivation for living a life dedicated to Him.

    Sometimes we need to use a little common sense. I repeat: If Jesus is equal to the Father in his omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence where He is now seated a the right hand of God, then we may safely assume that He knows exactly when the Rapture is going to take place. I am not saying that I am right. I am saying that this is the more reasonable assumption in the light of his equality with the Father where He is now seated at the right hand of God.

    After his resurrection Jesus said to his disciples “And All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” (Matthew 28:18). I am inclined to think that this power includes his knowledge of all things, including the exact time of the Rapture. Furthermore, He also said: “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5). Surely this glory also includes the glory of omniscience.

    Unless the Father is still withholding the knowledge of the exact time of the Rapture from his Son and is waiting for the time He (the Father) determined for it to take place at which time He is going to say to his Son, “Son, the time has come for you to gather your bride to yourself. Go!”

    As far as I am concerned, Jesus now knows exactly when the Rapture is going to take place. The point is: Why would God the Father withhold the exact time of the Rapture from His Son who is now seated at his right hand? I see no reason why He should do it. Can you think of a reason?

  • Redeemed

    I believe that most certainly applies to the essentials of the faith for salvation and sanctification and edification.

    But whether Jesus knows the time of the Rapture or He does not is not essential to our knowledge. There are some things that will not be revealed to us until the proper time and quite frankly do not need to be revealed.

    This verse from the Amplified Version seems to say it best:

    1 Corinthians 13:12 (AMP)
    12 For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].

    God has revealed to us that Jesus is coming and He has given us clues, but He has not given us a date. Some people try to put together Bible codes to figure out the date, but this is meaningless exercise.

    Our focus is to be ready to face the Lord at any time whether it be through death or the Rapture which could occur at any time.That is the point I was trying to make.

  • Redeemed

    I don’t think anyone said or suggested in the very least that Jesus’ knowledge of the time of the Rapture is essential to our knowledge of salvation and sanctification and edification.

    However, a correct knowledge of how to be saved, in particular, as Deborah said, is essential and of the utmost importance and therefore cannot be applied to 1 Corinthians 13 (John 17:3). Salvation is definitely not something we now see, only dimly and blurred as in a mirror. An accurate knowledge of how to be saved is essential to salvation.

    Paul discusses the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 13. The gift of knowledge is essential to the church but is by no means complete (verse 8). Paul discusses the gifts of the Holy Spirit (not salvation) in this passage and merely says that they are temporary blessings in an imperfect age. In Ephesians 4:11-16 we learn that the gifts are given and must be used to bring the church (body of Christ) from infancy to adulthood (perfection in Jesus Christ) – “attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” This will only be attained when we see Jesus as He is. We must be very careful how we use 1 Corinthians 13:12. In one of my discussions on Calvinism, someone once said to me, “We cannot determine with certainty whether predestination and election unto salvation (Calvinism) is correct or not because we are now looking into a mirror but one day well shall see perfectly.” That’s dangerous, very dangerous. It’s like saying, “we don’t know fully how to be saved but one day we shall know.” Then it will be too late.

    Whether Jesus knows when the Rapture is going to take place has no bearing on our salvation but common sense seems to say that He does because He is now seated at the right hand of God where He shares equal knowledge with the Father, including the time of the Rapture. I am not saying that you should believe it for your salvation, sanctification and edification.

  • Redeemed

    Thomas please read my comments again. I did not say that you implied that knowing such a detail as whether Christ knows the date of the Rapture is an essential of the faith. To say so would be utterly ridiculous!

    I DID say:

    But whether Jesus knows the time of the Rapture or He does not is not essential to our knowledge.

    I said it was not essential KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge can extend beyond the essentials of the faith such as facts, history, etc. I was basically saying why are we making such a big deal of it? Sometimes such discussions can be distractions. It is not necessary for me to even speculate as to whether or not the Lord Jesus is privy to the timing of the Rapture. I don’t mean to be flippant, but I think the Father and the Son have it covered. My part is to be READY when He comes.

    Reaching the lost, standing for truth, being faithful and exhorting others. That is our focus.

    That is all that I meant. I hope I finally made it clear.

    Grace and peace to you brother.

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