Calvinism – What would these Pastors have done if they were there?

What would these pastors have done if they were there

2 Youtube videos by Tom Lessing.  The shocking truth about Calvinism; that God does NOT love everyone savingly…  Hear John MacArthur, Paul Washer, John Piper and Robert Morey speak.

and Part 2 …

Please read “Psalm 5:5 – ‘God hates sinners'” for a better understanding of Calvinists’ twisting of Scripture.

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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Sam

Jonathan Kirby,

I accidentally stumbled upon this thread and read your comment. I went to the Day by Day with Christ page you linked to. I just wanted to mention to you that I have noticed some of the people you quote from are Calvinist. C.H. Spurgeon and F.B. Meyer are two that I noticed immediately. Also, you quoted D.L. Moody who was accepted by Calvinists, though it appears that he did believe in free will and didn’t hold to the 5 point Calvinist doctrine. The Moody Bible Institute holds that it has Calvinist leanings (provided in the link below). I’m not saying we can’t learn and grow from the teachings of those with a differing theology, but that we should be aware of where they stand. I’m not sure if you were aware of this before, just wanted to take a moment to point it out in case you weren’t. God bless!

http://www.moodyministries.net/crp_MainPage.aspx?id=334

barbbfly

@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
i found myself with reformed people all around me and was going to ”grace reformed baptist church” & ”grace canadian reformed church”. thank Jesus for keeping me safe and soveriegn elect tulip is an assault on God’s character!. i have been trying to help a family and a puritan/ calvinist for over a year and at 1st they knocked my image of God to slippery slopes. i thought i was going insane! they all said i would come to know the deeper truths and a deeper God. why does a person have to gradually believe in something ? cuz i think its not true , JESUS’ GOSPEL IS A simple gospel. i leave areas grey where elect is mentioned and never should we make a whole doctrine that colors the whole bible on an obscure scripture thats not clear. well after me going back to church history and reformation -fanatically reading my bible God turned the saga for good and i found i identify most with anabaptists. the great commission is whats important. I AM REALLY WORRIED OF HOW INSIDIOUS CALVINISM IS AND HOW POPULAR IT IS. IT IS INFILTRATING EVERYWHERE. I DON’T THINK MOST CHRISTIANS KNOW WHAT THEY’RE GETTING INTO. I WAS IN THE WORD OF FAITH MOVEMENT WHEN A NEW CHRISTIAN AND U CAN GET INDOCTRINATED. BLINDED. ETC BY SATAN! THX FOR SITE GOD KEEP U SAFE!

Deborah (Discerning the World)

barbbfly

Praise our Lord Jesus that He kept your safe and opened your eyes to the truth. Yes Calvinism is a devilish doctrine and it catches many. And adherents of Calvinism turn out to be the nastiest people on the block when you question their doctrine – the spirit of John Calvin (A MURDERER) and their POPE leaps out and wants to do all kinda of evil to you.

I stand very firm against Calvinism and people who follow it. And you are right it’s infiltrating everywhere because it’s a offshoot of Roman Catholicism and we are in the End times where Mystery Babylon is taking over.

Truthful Conversation

Michael,

Regarding your comment #12.

I used to live in Cape Town and I had a friend who belonged to St James. I used to go with her to ladies meetings. I must admit that as I still believed in speaking in tongues, I was shocked that she did not practise speaking in tongues. I often heard her talking to friends saying tongues were a lie and a heresy. Of course now I know that tongues have ceased. At that time Frank Retief was still there.. although I do not think he is the Bishop in SA now.

However, having recently looked up St James church online, I see that they describe themselves as being Reformed. They are also linked to the Evangelical Alliance. Are you saying that they are, or are not Calvinists? As far as I can see they are Calvinists.

Redeemed

@ barbbfly:

Adherents to Reformed/Calvinism absolutely love to debate such as James White of Alpha & Omaga Ministries. They delight in tripping up those who underestimage their expertise and preparation. There is no love in their debating, only the desire to flaunt their “scholarship” and make a fool out of their opponent. The pride is astoundingly evident in their manner and their words. When challenged, they come out swinging, apouting Bible verses taken out of context and twisted to fit their perverted theology.

Then there are others who come across as benevolent and tolerant and keep their beliefs more subdued the better to entrap.

Then there are those who have discernment blogs exposing false teachers and thereby establish credibility with the unwary.

Then there is Paul Washer who snags people with his passionate speeches.

They seem to have the ability to morph themselves into many forms better than the worst of the false teachers. And they manage to get a pass from teachers who should know better and should be exposing them such as Moriel and others who end up blurring the lines between truth and error.

Thank the Lord you came out unscathed and eyes wide open to this false belief system. It seems to be gaining traction rather than slowing down.

Carolyn

Redeemed, yes…it is as you say. Calvinist forums run the from the ridiculous to the sublime. There are some very educated, articulate, masterful and yet, dodgy Calvinists. I was commenting on a site that wasn’t Calvinist per se but with Calvinist readership. Someone made a comment and I said…”your Calvinism is showing” and suddenly out of the clear blue sky, five or six Calvinist supporters descended on me as though they were roping a calf. I was on my back, feet in the air and the Calvinist cowboys, surrounding me, hands in the air in triumph, had roped another one and branded it as an unbeliever. Poor little calf! I was more wary after that and more careful to keep my Calvinist discernment cloaked.

Anyhow…many keep their Calvinist dogma undercover because they have an agenda! They must first convince you of their orthodoxy…and then slide you into their “deeper” truths. Here’s what CARM – Matt Slick says after he explains the TULIP doctrine…http://carm.org/calvinism

“Hyper-Calvinism
The Hyper-Calvinist emphasizes the sovereignty of God to such an extent that man’s human responsibility is denied. In actuality, Hyper-Calvinism is a rejection of historic Calvinist thought. Hyper-Calvinism denies that the gospel call applies to all, and/or denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, and/or denies the gospel offer to the non-elect, and/or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal, and/or denies that there is such a thing as “common grace,” and/or denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect. Calvinists do not agree with the Hyper-Calvinists.”

Draw your own conclusions…

Carolyn

So now we have Hyper-Calvinism and Calvinism lite as explained on this site by John Fortune…from one of the comments above:
http://finding-the-church.blogspot.ca/2011/11/why-i-dont-like-spurgeon.html

@John F…I read your article and I remembered back when I first landed in the Calvinist camp from my charismatic background. There was a discussion being carried on and using words like Original Sin…I was arguing from the Biblical lens and they were arguing from the Calvinist lens – quite different as your article points out. Same with words like election, predestination, perseverance, lordship…all Biblical words but used by a Calvinist, they become twisted into a different doctrine. I came out of that discussion with my eyes crossed and my body twisted like a pretzel…had no idea what just happened. Yes, there are verses that can be used to support TULIP…when you start with a TULIP agenda. But did you know, that you can do the same thing with ANY dogma or cult…been there done that. You can start with an agenda and you can prove it from Scripture. How about starting with Scripture by the light of the Holy Spirit and ending with doctrine?

Yes, Redeemed, I believe that Calvinism is gaining traction because people who disagree are afraid to speak up. They just want to believe that we’re all Christians battling the forces of evil. Isn’t it wonderful that we can unite as a stronger force against the evil Third Wave Doctrines? The distorted leaven of Calvinism remains hidden. However, God himself is still able to separate the wheat from the chaff and any one on the side of Truth will be brought back to the simple gospel of forgiveness and repentance sans TULIP indoctrination.

DTW is one of the few sites that is brave enough to take on the error of Calvinism. It’s not a popular option.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Carolyn

>> ”your Calvinism is showing” and suddenly out of the clear blue sky, five or six Calvinist supporters descended on me as though they were roping a calf. I was on my back, feet in the air and the Calvinist cowboys, surrounding me, hands in the air in triumph, had roped another one and branded it as an unbeliever. Poor little calf!

ROTFL BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA oh honestly… that was the funniest thing ever. I was already laughing after I read Robbies comment under another article and then I read yours and I was left gasping for air I was laughing so hard.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

>> I came out of that discussion with my eyes crossed and my body twisted like a pretzel

Oh my gosh… ROTFL again.

Redeemed

It is the wee hours of the morning in my neck of the woods and I too am LMHO
over Carolyn’s description of being lassoed and hogtied by the “Calvinist cowboys”. Who says we don’t have a sense of humor here?

Oh my, I have been there and have been tossed unceremoniously from a certain site that posted an article calling free will a devilish dogma! When I said otherwise they pounced on me like I was Satan himself. I was informed that I was an ignoramus – that was the nicest thing they said – and informed me that I was not welcome in their little Calvinist vacuum.

Carolyn

Ah, you girls laugh because you also have passed through that dark valley of death and you are relieved to be out in the sunshine, among the smiling faces and twirling figures of those who are chanting “freewill” “freewill” “freewill” without the slightest fear. Redeemed…get some sleep!

Michael

Truthful Conversation all I can say here is that Frank Retief preached the true gospel and had a huge passion for the lost so I can conclude that there was no belief in the elect as being predestined. He believed that all mankind can be saved if they accepted the call of the cross and repented. I never heard the false gospel of predestination there.

The Frank that I knew years ago was a man that walks his talk…a really wonderful character…he had deep and true humility and really loved the Saviour. I attended his bible studies and never heard any mention of predestination in the context of Calvin’s doctrine. He was totally against the tongues teachings as well.

I cannot speak for him now and what his views are.

I have been around a long time and seen many things happen in the church. I’ve seen bad things and some good but generally the church is slipping downwards. Contrary to what the universal church is saying we are going the other way…the bible tells us that…we are falling away in the last days.
The Universal preachers that are preaching Dominionism, revival etc have got it ALL WRONG.

As you know I am totally against Calvin’s interpretation and have been outspoken against it…labeling it as folly and wicked.

Frank has retired now; he ended up as bishop of CESA prior to retirement. He took over from the late Stephen Bradley another true saint of God.

Having said this I am wary of all churches today, they have it seems been contaminated with erroneous doctrines more so today than ever before and false teachings are creeping in everywhere.

It was not like that in the past, I remember the AOG under John Bond and Noel Cromhout preached “fire and brimstone” gospel. You’ll never see this in charismatic (Pentecostal churches) today…if there is then I’ve never seen it.

The church has gone astray…”All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all”…Isaiah 53:6
and this blog is doing a sterling and Holy Spirit inspired job in unraveling the deceits that has crept in many ways and issues.

I agree with what Deb’s is doing…she is exposing false doctrines and teachings that CREEP in everywhere, in reformed churches, in charismatic churches and extreme teachings like word of faith and RC which are just blatantly false.

A church group might begin well and be sound but if error, minor or blatant is allowed to creep in and the true message of the Cross is compromised and eventually lost.
“A little leaven leavens the whole lump.” Gal 5:9.

Truthful Conversation

Michael,

Thanks for the reply comment. I must just tell you though, that I was at AOG in the days of John Bond and Noel Cromhout..enough said.

Sharon

My very best friend of 53 years crossed into Calvinism back in 2004. We grew up in the same little church in Michigan, USA. Frankly I was heart broken to hear she got so involved into the Cult of Calvinism. My grandmother called them “Hardshells” which is a Tennessee word that Hyper-Calvinist do not like being called.. I know of no other issue that continues to divide Baptist Churches today than the stinking festering issue of Calvinism. Her husband and adult son are lost and sometimes I think she has the attitude of, well they must not be part of the elect so they can’t be saved. That bothers me a lot. Even today I cried out to the Lord that in his love and mercy that He would save both of them before its too late. One day I will show her the supposed “Conversion Statements” of Calvin and John MacArthur. No repentance, no mention of Jesus. Hmmmmmmm.

Burning Lamp wrote:

Thank you Debs for posting this!

Calvinism/Reformed theology is the Trojan Horse of the faith and one of the greatest enemies of the Gospel!

John MacArthur is widely accepted by evangelicals who are often unwittinly sucked into Calvinism via MacArthur. I know personally several who came to believe in Calvinism via this gateway.

Another is Ray Comfort’s The Way of the Master which is widely promoted has been a gateway to a false gospel to the undiscerning.
Check out this link: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/ray_comfort-heresy.htm His way of reaching the lost is confrontational, not loving and reflects the false doctrine of “Lordship Salvation”.
Quote from the article exposing this:

HOWEVER, the big problem with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron is that they teach the damnable heresy of LORDSHIP SALVATION. Like all Lordship Salvationists, Ray Comfort errantly teaches that salvation by faith ALONE in Jesus Christ is not enough to save someone. That is a false Gospel. According to Ray Comfort, a person MUST also cease from their sinful lifestyle and give up worldly living to be saved. Thus, eternal life ceases to be a gift in Ray Comfort’s mind, and has now been turned into a reward. It is much more than a matter of mere semantics. The Bible teaches one Gospel, not two. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/ray_comfort.htm

You can fully expect that Calvinists will defend these men and their damnable doctrine because they are blinded by the enemy and their devotion to men and this results in twisting of the Scripture.

This is much more than a minor difference in “philosophies” but rather souls hanging in the balance.

Those of the Calvinist/Reformed faith love to get involved in debates, using their pet verses. The pride is so evident!

john

Thanks to those who seem to hate me for being a Christian who understands the gospel in a fashion similar to Calvin. What I read above comments, these have very little semblance to Calvin’s teaching, perhaps because Calvin sticks to the gospel of Jesus. We need not be afraid of a God who loves us enough to die for us, who knew us from before creation, who is totally and wholly in charge. I encourage us to consider David, who advised…”forbid it I should raise my hand…” Let the family of God, seek unity in the Spirit not in agreement.

Be well in the Lord, those who love him. Let Him be sovereign. We prefer our God our way one supposes, but he is not our doll to dress up in our clothes.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

John

>> Thanks to those who seem to hate me

You start your comment off by lying. You sayd “Thanks to those who seem to hate me” No one hates you John. When someone tells you that you are following false teaching it’s because WE LOVE YOU.

>> Calvin sticks to the gospel of Jesus.

Really, how so? When God laid out the commandments to Moses that said Thou Shalt Not kill, who went against that commandment and murdered people? That’s right, John Calvin. How can you John follow the doctrine of a murderer? Find one instance in the bible where born again men/women murdered people that did not agree with their teaching. Did any disciple of Jesus murder people because they did not agree with others? No. Does the bible tell us that we must murder those who we don’t agree with? NEVER. How can you follow after the teachings of a man who murdered people indiscriminately and had a smile on his face when he did those evil things?

Andre

Hi there. I am sorry that I have not had time to read through all the comments made, but it seems to me that the concept of “Calvinism” is the “fly in the ointment”. Maybe a brief summary of the points where anyone would care to explain which of the central doctrines of Calvinism (Normally TULIP) disagrees with the Bible and what alternative position is held by those who wish to respond (supported by texts seen in context and in line with Scripture as a whole).
Thank you.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Hi Andre

We have many articles on Calvinism that explain just that, Calvinism is very complex and one article does not do it justice. Please read all articles under this section: The Truth about Calvinism Thank you :)

Michael

Ironside on Calvinism
TBC Staff

Oct 23 2009
On Calvinism

“Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans:8:29-30

, the other chapter is Ephesians:1:5 and 11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus”

“D.L. Moody used to put it very simply the elect are the ‘whosoever wills’ the non-elect ‘whosoever wont’s’. This is exactly what scripture teaches, the invitation is to all, those who accept it are the elect. Remember, we are never told that Christ died for the elect”.

“Whosoever means, whosoever.” Only a biased theologian, with an axe to grind, could ever think that it meant only the elect.”

–H.A. Ironside

And how are you saved…by Harry Ironside

https://youtu.be/4dCnrLMy1r8

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Michael!! Welcome back :)

Chuck Ness

OK, this may be long. I have never been accused of being too vague in what I want to say, or to be lacking in words.

I was ostracized from a Calvary Chapel Church because I exposed two instructors at their small seminary, for teaching Calvinism. 

(I will not mention which one out of respect for the many good pastors there, and because the Calvinist teachers were finally let go.)

Now, mind you this was back in 2006. A time when it was well known that Chuck Smith was very strict in his rule that NO ONE was to ever teach Calvinism if they are under the Calvary Chapel banner. 

At the church I attended, I exposed close friends of the head pastor, and one of those men were close enough to the head pastor’s nephew who was also a very loved Worship leader, that he was heavily influenced. (He had his own problems)

Now in defense of the head pastor, he did not teach Calvinism, but he was blind to the incrementalism that was seeping into the minds of his congregation. Many of the flock truly thought they were getting great enlightenment into the Word. I must admit, Calvinist teachers are good at teaching people. That is because they can disguise their true beliefs by making what they teach sound so right.

For a time, I myself almost fell for some of their teachings. Almost. Yet, I have always been blessed by God to see through the fog of well spoken words that can cloud the minds of so many lazy Christians. I say lazy, because they do not read the Scriptures diligently enough to be ready for false teachings as they should. 

Too many Christians, even those who attend services on a regular basis, will join groups more for the social aspect. While blindly accepting what they are told is fact without question. Instead of being like the Bereans and checking the Scriptures daily to be sure what they are told is true, they accept everything they are told, just because someone has a title.

Now I do not question their salvation, but as Paul said, you are still on milk, it’s time for you to chew the meat. Yet they never do their part in checking the scriptures themselves. They just allow others to tell them what the Scriptures say. I knew many at the church, like myself, who started questioning things, but never really had the backbone to stand up and call out the teachers who had no cloths on. 

Well, I was never one to be shy, and God blessed me with an ability to write things in a way that makes one’s mind pay attention. Now, one of the most truly blessed teachers I have ever known was one of the seminary teachers. As much as he agreed with me, he could not get the attention of the head pastor. Mainly because the congregation loved the false teacher.

My friend asked me to use my words to write a convincing letter to the elders, to see if I could convince them. So, I put pen to paper and wrote what was in my heart. I pointed out the things they taught, and the books they used. I did my diligent home work, and did my best not to be condescending or angry. I presented the facts as I saw them. Then awaited the fireworks.

Within a week, the buzz was going around that the school was being shut down, and the pastors were confronted with my letter. They could not deny what I wrote, and thus handed in their resignations. At the time I had a ministry going at a retirement center I had built up to 24 plus ladies and a few men. I did Monday Bible studies and the Sunday message.

Well, the nursing home hired a new director, and it was an avowed Lesbian. A week before Easter I was told I was not welcomed back. This all happened about a Month after the closing of the churches budding new seminary school. I asked for some help with my situation, and the church turned their back in helping me. I was persona non grata, and lost my ministry. I fell because of my part in revealing the false teachers who were poisoning the congregation with Calvin’s teachings.
 
Now, you must understand that one of the Calvin teachers was a very good speaker. The gentleman had a way with presenting the Word. He was able to make the congregation sit at the edge of their seat as they awaited what he would say next.

Yes, he was, I guess he still is, a gifted speaker who knew how to keep your attention. He could thread the message of the Scriptures in a smooth flowing while expounding upon them in such a way that you were completely lost in his narration. Two hours could go by without you once looking at your watch. OH, if I were so blessed as an orator as he was.

Yet, as we all know, you don’t kill a mouse with 90% poison and 10% food. OH no. You use 99% food, and 1% poison. In those two hours you would be given a gift. A gift that he could later build upon to lure you even deeper into the teachings of John Calvin. Many who were mesmerized, became angry at me for exposing him for his teaching of Calvinism. I was ostracized, and felt shunned by many. Many who, while they agreed with me, felt it was best to distance themselves from me to keep their standing in the social club. As it were.

For me, it comes down to one Scripture that Calvinists cannot get past. No matter how they try, they cannot discount, nor explain it away. Many tried, but even they come to relaize they cannot.

“”For God so loved the world, that He gave His Only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.”” John 3:16

It was the first verse I ever memorized. I was 8 years old, and it has always been in my heart, That verse has kept me from ever falling for any false teachings, and from following any cults. In all those years after memorizing that verse I never once denied who He was. It was that verse that saved me long before I accepted Christ. God kept fighting, because He knew I would eventually come around.

For Calvinists to be right, then Jesus had to be telling a lie. It’s as simple as that. When I walked with the devil in my many wayward years, I never dared to argue against God. I never once tried to say Jesus was wrong. I never ever claimed the Scriptures were made up. I always knew they were true, and thus I willfully accepted the fact that if I never came around that I would go to hell one day, because I knew I was wrong.

In reality, that made me worse than those who just don’t know. O’ Lord, I know You know, that I knew, that You are who You are, and Your patience has proven perfect and true.

About Me

Collin

Hey, Deborah. I want to ask because I am confused. You’re not defending Servetus are you? Isn’t he a heretic as well? Could you and Tom compare his teaching against Scripture too? I still think it heinous that he was killed the way he was, but do we know if his teachings were Biblical?

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing replied:

Colin

DTW does not defend Arminianism, Servetus, or anyone else’s views. We search the Scriptures to see whether whatever is preached comes from God or not. And, those who do not agree must prove us wrong from Scripture that we are in error. However, we will not sweep historical well-researched facts under the carpet. Henceforth, I give you the follwoing facts on Servetus from “What Love Is This” pp. 79-90 by Dave Hunt.

Born Miguel Serveto in Villanova in 1511, the man known to the world as Michael Servetus “discovered the pulmonary circulation of the blood—the passage of the blood from the right chamber of the heart along the pulmonary artery to and through the lungs, its purification thereby aeration, and its return via the pulmonary vein to the left chamber of the heart.” He was in some ways “a bit more insane than the average of his time,” announcing the end of the world in which “the Archangel Michael would lead a holy war against both the papal and Genevese Antichrists.”

Unquestionably, he was a rank heretic whose ravings about Christ reflected a combination of Islam and Judaism, both of which intrigued

him. He was, however, right about some things: that God does not predestine souls to hell and that God is love. His otherwise outrageous ideas might have passed unnoticed had he not published them and attempted to force them upon Calvin and his fellow ministers in Geneva with aggressive, contemptuous, and blasphemous railings. That Servetus titled one of his published works The Restitution of Christianity could only be taken as an intentional personal affront by the author of the Institutes of the Christian Religion.

Servetus wrote at least thirty unwelcome letters to Calvin, which must have irritated the latter greatly. On February 13, 1546, Calvin wrote to Farel, “Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word, for should he come, if my authority is of any avail, I will not suffer him to get out alive.”

I hope you see that we do not approve of Servetus’ theology but that we are appalled and vexed by Calvin’s murders. Servetus was not the only one he murdered. There are many others. Yet, Calvinists just about worship Calvin. How is that possible? I don’t have the time to compare Servetus with Scripture. Please do your own research. We are not spooning feeders.

[Edited by DTW – had an error with the comments section. Had to repost Tom’s comment manually]

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