Calvinism – What would these Pastors have done if they were there?

2 Youtube videos by Tom Lessing.  The shocking truth about Calvinism; that God does NOT love everyone savingly…  Hear John MacArthur, Paul Washer, John Piper and Robert Morey speak.

and Part 2 …

Tom (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded in 2008. Tom Lessing originally founded the website “Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray”. Tom Lessing joined Discerning the World in May 2013 and all his articles were moved across to DTW.

51 Responses

  1. Burning Lamp says:

    Thank you Debs for posting this!

    Calvinism/Reformed theology is the Trojan Horse of the faith and one of the greatest enemies of the Gospel!

    John MacArthur is widely accepted by evangelicals who are often unwittinly sucked into Calvinism via MacArthur. I know personally several who came to believe in Calvinism via this gateway.

    Another is Ray Comfort’s The Way of the Master which is widely promoted has been a gateway to a false gospel to the undiscerning.
    Check out this link: His way of reaching the lost is confrontational, not loving and reflects the false doctrine of “Lordship Salvation”.
    Quote from the article exposing this:

    HOWEVER, the big problem with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron is that they teach the damnable heresy of LORDSHIP SALVATION. Like all Lordship Salvationists, Ray Comfort errantly teaches that salvation by faith ALONE in Jesus Christ is not enough to save someone. That is a false Gospel. According to Ray Comfort, a person MUST also cease from their sinful lifestyle and give up worldly living to be saved. Thus, eternal life ceases to be a gift in Ray Comfort’s mind, and has now been turned into a reward. It is much more than a matter of mere semantics. The Bible teaches one Gospel, not two.

    You can fully expect that Calvinists will defend these men and their damnable doctrine because they are blinded by the enemy and their devotion to men and this results in twisting of the Scripture.

    This is much more than a minor difference in “philosophies” but rather souls hanging in the balance.

    Those of the Calvinist/Reformed faith love to get involved in debates, using their pet verses. The pride is so evident!

  2. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Let’s hope that those not caught up in it YET, are warned of the dangers of Calvinism as to NOT get caught up in it in the future – because those caught up in it are indeed trapped and only through a miracle see the truth.

  3. jj says:

    Hi Deborah,
    I commented on this site a couple of months ago, and you gave me great guidance.I actually got what you were trying to say about Afrikaner Calvinism, and israeli vision amongs the Afrikaners the other day. We had an online “argument” about Afrikaner rights, and then this calvism stuck out its ugly head. I never realised how many people are caught up in this, and how strongly they believe this. They truly believe that the Afrikaners are Gods chosen people, a that they are saved because they are white “Jews”aka Afrikaners. The more you try to show them the correct way, they insult and call you a k… boetie, and tell you that you will burn in hell. I was really shocked, never realised how deeply this believe is rooted in my community. And it is true what you say, only a miracle will help them see the truth, because take my word, talking to them doesnt help. I actually realised i would rather live and take my chances in the current crime South Africa, and be saved, than to live a safe live and my soul condemned to hell.
    I guess i was luck to be brought up in a household were this believe was never even mentioned, i guess that is why it shocked me so much. It actually kinda hurts to know that your “people”, friend, collegues are deeply rooted in this.

    I just thought i had to share this, and thanks for guidance you gave me.

  4. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Hey there!

    It is terrible isn’t it. Just thank Jesus that He has shown you the truth and opened your eyes WIDE to what is going on. The thing that catches people into Calvinism is that that they preach 90% truth (so people are drawn to them) – but the 10% ERROR is so horrendous and subtle that people don’t catch on and then it’s too late; you’ve been indoctrinated into the lie that you are Elect.

    Just keep standing for the truth JJ, and always listen to the Holy Spirit!

  5. Burning Lamp says:

    I had no idea that this heretical doctrine has morphed into areas that affect cultures. But it stands to reason that error is like a cancer and will spread and “mutate”. It is so ironic that Calvinist ministries take such a strong stand against Rome and yet they are blind to their own error. ANd the venom that comes forth and is directed against those who declare the truth is appalling.

    Keep the faith JJ!

  6. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> I had no idea that this heretical doctrine has morphed into areas that affect cultures

    Yip, South African Afrikaans culture is infested with this doctrine. White settlers to SA back in the 17th century were Huguenots some fleeing persecution. The old SA government was staunch Calvinist (Dutch Reformed Church) – they would murder people during the week and put on their suits and ties and go to church on the weekend.

  7. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Thanks Michael!

  8. Sibusiso Cele says:

    Hey Debs!, doesn’t this Mcarthur guy and his buddies ever read the bible?,why do they quote from the bush than from the bible?.Don’t they understand the verses they quote or they pretend in order to delude others ,it sounds like they are Satan’s disciples.

  9. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    That is a very good question. Well my answer would be this. If you don’t have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you will end up not understanding the bible – especially the most important parts; Satan will make sure of that. They are themselves deceived because they wholeheartedly believe they are ELECT – through pride they believe they are special in God’s eyes. And of course they pass on their deceit to others. This is why it’s so important in this day and age to make sure we test everything we hear to the Word of God, lest we be lead astray by wicked men.

    When the Charismatics where out in full force with the last revival in the USA called the Lakeland Revival the Calvinist’s were there to sweep up the people who were spiritually hurt and lost into their web. All of a sudden there was a boom in Reformed thinking as they moved on the youth with men such as Louie Giglio and Mark Driscoll. I’ve had my fair share of run-ins with Calvanists – I know what these people are all about and it’s very very scary.

  10. Michael says:

    Calvins theology is one of the worse because it is covered and laced with 90% truth and 10% dose of the most fatal poison. Calvinism has crept into the very heart of Christian evangelicals. It can be very confusing to the new convert.
    The WOF teaching ironically is easier to detect…because it is never lines up with true scripture in the right context…Cavinism on the otherhand has an interlectual appeal and is debated amongst learned theologins…John Mac Arthur sometimes makes a lot of sense but if he indeed is truly a Calvinist as it appears then his teachings are just as deadly as the Jakes and Benny Hinn’s of this world.

  11. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    You are 100% correct. And John MacArthur is very deadly.

  12. Michael says:

    Many years ago I attended a church in Cape Town…Kenilworth actually which is a southern suburb of that region…the church was St James…the one attacked by terrorists many years ago …a wonderful church led by a true man of God…my friend Frank Retief…Frank had just started then and him and his lovely wife Beulah had a great influence on my life.Frank was a man of great integrity and he genuinely had a fervour for preaching the gospel. Frank was direct and honest and loved the Lord Jesus Christ and is sadly, through my long Christian walk, one of the few Christian ministers or pastors that set an example and walked his talk. I knew him and Beulah well then and I attended his bible studies every Wednesday night at St James. Frank at that stage had leanings (or so I was told towards Calvin’s teachings) but he was then a relatively young minister with high intelligence but knowing Frank well enough as his strength of character, his honesty and most important his genuine love of the Lord Jesus Christ and the lost.
    I have to be careful here because I have stated I do not patronise any man…what I really trying to express is this…that Frank was genuinely saturated with his genuine love for Jesus…it stood out…his hunger for lost souls…yes he preached the old fashioned gospel…sort of tough and fire and brimstone stuff…so different from Angus Buchan…he filled the Three Arts theatre in Plumstead..twice on Sundays.
    Frank later became Bishop…head of the church of England in SA and has now retired.
    I do not attend church today in my area (I now live in KZN) because I have not found a fellowship that seeks the truth…it is an affluent area contaminated with the prosperity gospel.
    I would like to write to Frank and find out how he managed to dispel the Calvinistic influence…which I believe he really never had at all…because his mission was for the lost. And yes, we all make mistakes…I was sympathetic with charismatics somewhere along the line but now fervently oppose them…the bible simply being my only teacher and the Holy Spirit first.

  13. Burning Lamp says:

    Michael, you put it SO well! Yes, JMA and others of his ilk such as R.C. Sproul are much more dangerous than those who are obvious to the beholder such as Hinn, Jakes, Osteen, etc. JMA builds trust w/his stands for truth but this only serves as a cloak for the error which goes undetected. He even makes friends in the discernment community by speaking out against certain errors. But as you say, one of the most deadly doctrines is Calvinism/Reformed doctrine. Even those who claim to not subscribe to all of the TULIP are in serious error. Any one of them are a violation of biblical truth and the Gospel.

    And what is concerning is that pastors rarely if ever warn their flocks about this false teaching, even promoting JMA and others they consider “safe”. The sheep need to understand exactly what this deadly weed is so they will not graze upon it. It needs to be exposed as a deed of darkness.

  14. PW says:

    [EDITED by DTW: SEE COMMENTS from a guy called Elbie under the following article: Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse ]

    Hi guys
    Its been a while since I have been here and i am glad this blog is still going strong!
    First off i don’t know the whole history with Elbie, but do believe we as Christians should be careful how we handle and present ourselves on open platforms like these.
    Anyhow that just a humble observation.
    I have one question and please note not because I support Calvinism or Universalism even though the question might present it in such a sense. I honestly would like to know your wisdom cause this is a question presented to me from time to time.
    Forgive if some of my assumptions are wrong…
    Calvinism teaches that we are pre-selected (pre destination if i am correct) and at least does explain why millions of people whom never heard of Jesus and God will burn in Hell for the misfortune of being born somewhere else. See one of the enemies main weapons is just this point. How can a Loving Father create People to His image and then give some no chance to ever hear his gospel, thus condemning them to hell.
    I ask this because i don’t have an answer for people asking the above? I am a new born Christian and have not found any scripture to explain it. Thus at least to a humble mind does Calvinism offer some sort of explanation.
    Guys my question is not to open an argument or for me to be ridiculed by my lack of understanding or weather the Holy Spirit abide in me or not. I know to whom i beg forgiveness every day, so if this question is not to standard then rather delete and not answer.
    Thank you

  15. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    BL, if you don’t mind, please answer PW re the Calvinist thing

  16. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> First off i don’t know the whole history with Elbie, but do believe we as Christians should be careful how we handle and present ourselves on open platforms like these.

    Next time I will only quote scripture for people like Elbie, I dunno how you are going to handle it PW because scripture cuts deeper and REBUKES worse than my words could ever do.

    >> Guys my question is not to open an argument or for me to be ridiculed by my lack of understanding or weather the Holy Spirit abide in me or not.

    With a comment like this one would think you are trying to look for trouble? Is there something about Elbie that resonates with you? Possibly Calvinism? And this is now why you attack me with such sly wording? If you want to side with Elbie against me, then just come out and say so PW, don’t beat around the bush.

  17. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Try fit Calvinist doctrine into this verse:

    All men are born with the knowledge of God: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20)

    God gives EVERY MAN this thing called a conscience. I think you have heard of it before ;) BL wrote this wonderful comment to a Calvinist a while ago on man’s conscience. I will find it and paste it here for you to read.

    Instead of reading Calvinist sermons on what the bible is supposed to mean, try reading the bible instead and pray for guidance of the Holy Spirit ONLY.

    You have been on my website for a long time now and you keep referring to yourself as a baby/new Christian, well I am going to ask you nicely, “when are you going to spiritually grow up?” (1 Corinthians 3:2) “I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, because you weren’t ready for it. And you’re still not ready!” I am going to shock you PW…. Do you know how long I was saved before I stared this blog? 2 years! God NEVER leaves His Children in the dark – He will expand your mind with the TRUTH and very quickly too – knowledge in the Word of God will flow freely and easily.

  18. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Burning Lamp Wrote:

    I will take each section separately starting with Total Depravity. This is by no means an exhaustive study of the topic, but there should be ample references and some many very well overlap with those you have previously posted. Unconditional Election will follow in a day or so.

    Total Depravity

    There is no question but that the Bible teaches we are totally depraved, but it does not teach total inability to make moral and spiritual choices.

    There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to EVERY MAN COMING INTO THE WORLD. John 1:6-9 In John 1:9 we are told about Jesus, “That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.”

    So as you can see John was a light, but not THAT Light, and EVERY MAN in the world has light from God and from Christ, and so could be saved.

    We are born totally depraved, but the Lord Jesus gives ENOUGH LIGHT TO EVERY MAN to make him responsible to hear and to reject or accept the Gospel of the Son of God.

    So that little spark called conscience proves God gives inward light so one can choose right on issues of moral and spiritual duty. Men are not so predestined that they must sin or must reject Christ. God has given light to all men and seeks to draw all men to Himself: Gen. 6:3; Ps. 79:7-3; Ps. 98:2-3; Prov. 1:22-23; John 1:9; John 12:32; John 16:8; Rom. 1:18-25; Titus 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:3-6

    He gives light through conscience. Look at Romans 2:11-16: FOR THERE IS NO PARTIALITY WITH GOD.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

    For every idle word men shall come to judgment, Jesus said (Matt 12:36). And Revelation 20:12 tells us that the unsaved dead will be judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS” which are meticulously recorded. Does not that prove that in moral matters man is accountable and must choose?

    In John 12:32 did the Lord Jesus say, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw a FEW men unto Me”? NO, HE DIDN’T SAY THAT. Instead, He said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.”

    Notice John 5:40. Does this verse say,”And you will not come to Me, because you are not one of the elect”? HE DIDN’T SAY THAT. Rather He said, “But you are NOT WILLING to come to Me that you may have life. ” It is not that they were not elected; it was that they WOULD NOT COME.

    “God… now commandeth ALL men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30). Can anyone accuse God of commanding people to do what He has made it impossible for them to do?

    Romans 2:11-16 says: FOR THERE IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS WITH GOD. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

    Does that not mean that EVERY person in the world is warned from God, either by the Word or by God speaking through the law He has written in their hearts, that is, their CONSCIENCES?

    All who seek more light find enough light even as Cornelius did in Acts 10.

    The Bible pictures man as a free moral agent capable of choice, he is morally responsible as Psalm 19:1-4 tells us:

    1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
    And the firmament shows His handiwork.
    2 Day unto day utters speech,
    And night unto night reveals knowledge.
    3 There is no speech nor language
    Where their voice is not heard.
    4 Their line[a] has gone out through all the earth,
    And their words to the end of the world.

    So there is a speech in nature to turn men to seek God. It speaks in all the world and EVERY MAN is therefore accountable to God for it.

  19. PW/Pieter says:

    [deleted – it would appear that not agreeing with my theology is the one of the main reason for your distaste to this blog. I will NEVER compromise the truth PW and I am sorry if you can’t handle that. I am sorry if you see fighting for the truth as being mean spirited. I am sorry if you can’t handle that I will never bow down to other gods (evil spirits) who try pass off other doctrines as that of the Lord Jesus Christ’s. Please go find a place were everyone agrees on all theologies under one big flag of unity.

    DTW is under constant relentless attack by people (who are not seeking the truth) but soley place comments to cause trouble – like Elbie. (as he stated in the comment I deleted). But you don’t care about that. All you care about is to how much I slip up or at least you think I am because you see my rebuking sharply as being unbiblical but it is not (Titus 1:13) “This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith”. Never once have you come to my aid too help me or give me encouragement. You see genuine Christians stand together, they encourage one another; they don’t attack/fight with one another, because they know the fight is against evil spirits and not people! If people are willing to listen to the Holy Spirit they WILL HEAR what HE IS TELLING THEM. But if they refuse to listen to HIM, there is nothing I can do and no matter how I say it, it’s not going to change them! – not even a box of chocolates will do it. ]

  20. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Thanks Smugger!

    I’ve noticed that when people can’t back up their unbiblical beliefs with scripture they attack the messenger instead. And it’s all based on how they feel after they read text on a screen. This then leads them to brand me as unloving (ROTFL). Incredible. But then that is how Satan operates.

  21. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    I have created an article especially for Lordship Salvation and MOVED all the comments that were under this article across to the new article.

  22. MAC says:

    Do you all have an article about testing the spirits?

  23. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    It’s coming soon. ok here it is: Testing the Spirits – True Spiritual Discernment

  24. sarah says:

    It says it is not there. I would like to read this on testing the spirits. Lots of controversy over true spiritual discernment.

    Thanks and I changed email addresses awhile back because mine was too full, so new one as above.

  25. marusa says:

    When I was debating Calvinists on youtube, I came across a person who claims to be the woman in Revelation 12, an apostle for the USA, etc… She is a devout Calvinist. I saw on her channel recently that she even believes in killing for the Lord… She says she is going to have the power to kill and that she has already done so.

    Here is the link to her youtube channel, if you are interested. I would like to hear your opinion.

  26. Praying Sincerely says:

    For Jesus to save all your non-elect souls.

  27. Jonathan Kirby says:

    Recently I put up a Page on Facebook titled “Day by Day with Christ”. I made some comments against Calvinism, and immediately I was attacked. I discovered that out of my 330 friends or so about 30 had strong Calvinistic leanings. Well, I happened to read Dr Curtis Hutson articles refuting the 5 Point Doctrine of Calvinism (viz. TULIP), and I put up those articles on my Page. I cannot imagine the tidal wave of attacks that I received.

    There has been a slander and vilification campaign against me, because I am standing AGAINST CALVINISM, which I believe is a CULT that dishonours God! These people are very subtle and vicious; they will go to any length to destroy you. Can you tell me if you, Deborah, and your friends, are on Facebook? It is becoming difficult to fight the battle alone. I would like reinforcements; this is a battle for the TRUTH.

    PS. I am not an “Arminian” or a Calvinist or a Charismatic; nor am I New Age or Old age or anything. I am just a Biblical Christian who reads his Bible, and walks by the Word of God.

    PPS. I have put up extracts of your conversation on my Facebook Page. The Page is called Day by Day with Christ.

    Please visit the Page, and help me fight the good fight of THE FAITH. :)

  28. Robbie says:

    And those were just friends Jonathan?
    t’is a good sign. Living holy will lose you many “friends”

    Keep it up. Your’e not there for your own popularity. If one of them sees the light… Heaven rejoices.

    I will pop in :-)

  29. Robbie says:

    oops… I lost me avatar Auty D…

  30. Robbie says:

    Oh but you’ve been working!!
    Looks busy on the right side again! now that is what I would call order… at last . he he

  31. Sam says:

    Jonathan Kirby,

    I accidentally stumbled upon this thread and read your comment. I went to the Day by Day with Christ page you linked to. I just wanted to mention to you that I have noticed some of the people you quote from are Calvinist. C.H. Spurgeon and F.B. Meyer are two that I noticed immediately. Also, you quoted D.L. Moody who was accepted by Calvinists, though it appears that he did believe in free will and didn’t hold to the 5 point Calvinist doctrine. The Moody Bible Institute holds that it has Calvinist leanings (provided in the link below). I’m not saying we can’t learn and grow from the teachings of those with a differing theology, but that we should be aware of where they stand. I’m not sure if you were aware of this before, just wanted to take a moment to point it out in case you weren’t. God bless!

  32. barbbfly says:

    @ Deborah (Discerning the World):
    i found myself with reformed people all around me and was going to ”grace reformed baptist church” & ”grace canadian reformed church”. thank Jesus for keeping me safe and soveriegn elect tulip is an assault on God’s character!. i have been trying to help a family and a puritan/ calvinist for over a year and at 1st they knocked my image of God to slippery slopes. i thought i was going insane! they all said i would come to know the deeper truths and a deeper God. why does a person have to gradually believe in something ? cuz i think its not true , JESUS’ GOSPEL IS A simple gospel. i leave areas grey where elect is mentioned and never should we make a whole doctrine that colors the whole bible on an obscure scripture thats not clear. well after me going back to church history and reformation -fanatically reading my bible God turned the saga for good and i found i identify most with anabaptists. the great commission is whats important. I AM REALLY WORRIED OF HOW INSIDIOUS CALVINISM IS AND HOW POPULAR IT IS. IT IS INFILTRATING EVERYWHERE. I DON’T THINK MOST CHRISTIANS KNOW WHAT THEY’RE GETTING INTO. I WAS IN THE WORD OF FAITH MOVEMENT WHEN A NEW CHRISTIAN AND U CAN GET INDOCTRINATED. BLINDED. ETC BY SATAN! THX FOR SITE GOD KEEP U SAFE!

  33. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Praise our Lord Jesus that He kept your safe and opened your eyes to the truth. Yes Calvinism is a devilish doctrine and it catches many. And adherents of Calvinism turn out to be the nastiest people on the block when you question their doctrine – the spirit of John Calvin (A MURDERER) and their POPE leaps out and wants to do all kinda of evil to you.

    I stand very firm against Calvinism and people who follow it. And you are right it’s infiltrating everywhere because it’s a offshoot of Roman Catholicism and we are in the End times where Mystery Babylon is taking over.

  34. Truthful Conversation says:


    Regarding your comment #12.

    I used to live in Cape Town and I had a friend who belonged to St James. I used to go with her to ladies meetings. I must admit that as I still believed in speaking in tongues, I was shocked that she did not practise speaking in tongues. I often heard her talking to friends saying tongues were a lie and a heresy. Of course now I know that tongues have ceased. At that time Frank Retief was still there.. although I do not think he is the Bishop in SA now.

    However, having recently looked up St James church online, I see that they describe themselves as being Reformed. They are also linked to the Evangelical Alliance. Are you saying that they are, or are not Calvinists? As far as I can see they are Calvinists.

  35. Redeemed says:

    @ barbbfly:

    Adherents to Reformed/Calvinism absolutely love to debate such as James White of Alpha & Omaga Ministries. They delight in tripping up those who underestimage their expertise and preparation. There is no love in their debating, only the desire to flaunt their “scholarship” and make a fool out of their opponent. The pride is astoundingly evident in their manner and their words. When challenged, they come out swinging, apouting Bible verses taken out of context and twisted to fit their perverted theology.

    Then there are others who come across as benevolent and tolerant and keep their beliefs more subdued the better to entrap.

    Then there are those who have discernment blogs exposing false teachers and thereby establish credibility with the unwary.

    Then there is Paul Washer who snags people with his passionate speeches.

    They seem to have the ability to morph themselves into many forms better than the worst of the false teachers. And they manage to get a pass from teachers who should know better and should be exposing them such as Moriel and others who end up blurring the lines between truth and error.

    Thank the Lord you came out unscathed and eyes wide open to this false belief system. It seems to be gaining traction rather than slowing down.

  36. Carolyn says:

    Redeemed, yes…it is as you say. Calvinist forums run the from the ridiculous to the sublime. There are some very educated, articulate, masterful and yet, dodgy Calvinists. I was commenting on a site that wasn’t Calvinist per se but with Calvinist readership. Someone made a comment and I said…”your Calvinism is showing” and suddenly out of the clear blue sky, five or six Calvinist supporters descended on me as though they were roping a calf. I was on my back, feet in the air and the Calvinist cowboys, surrounding me, hands in the air in triumph, had roped another one and branded it as an unbeliever. Poor little calf! I was more wary after that and more careful to keep my Calvinist discernment cloaked.

    Anyhow…many keep their Calvinist dogma undercover because they have an agenda! They must first convince you of their orthodoxy…and then slide you into their “deeper” truths. Here’s what CARM – Matt Slick says after he explains the TULIP doctrine…

    The Hyper-Calvinist emphasizes the sovereignty of God to such an extent that man’s human responsibility is denied. In actuality, Hyper-Calvinism is a rejection of historic Calvinist thought. Hyper-Calvinism denies that the gospel call applies to all, and/or denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, and/or denies the gospel offer to the non-elect, and/or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal, and/or denies that there is such a thing as “common grace,” and/or denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect. Calvinists do not agree with the Hyper-Calvinists.”

    Draw your own conclusions…

  37. Carolyn says:

    So now we have Hyper-Calvinism and Calvinism lite as explained on this site by John Fortune…from one of the comments above:

    @John F…I read your article and I remembered back when I first landed in the Calvinist camp from my charismatic background. There was a discussion being carried on and using words like Original Sin…I was arguing from the Biblical lens and they were arguing from the Calvinist lens – quite different as your article points out. Same with words like election, predestination, perseverance, lordship…all Biblical words but used by a Calvinist, they become twisted into a different doctrine. I came out of that discussion with my eyes crossed and my body twisted like a pretzel…had no idea what just happened. Yes, there are verses that can be used to support TULIP…when you start with a TULIP agenda. But did you know, that you can do the same thing with ANY dogma or cult…been there done that. You can start with an agenda and you can prove it from Scripture. How about starting with Scripture by the light of the Holy Spirit and ending with doctrine?

    Yes, Redeemed, I believe that Calvinism is gaining traction because people who disagree are afraid to speak up. They just want to believe that we’re all Christians battling the forces of evil. Isn’t it wonderful that we can unite as a stronger force against the evil Third Wave Doctrines? The distorted leaven of Calvinism remains hidden. However, God himself is still able to separate the wheat from the chaff and any one on the side of Truth will be brought back to the simple gospel of forgiveness and repentance sans TULIP indoctrination.

    DTW is one of the few sites that is brave enough to take on the error of Calvinism. It’s not a popular option.

  38. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> ”your Calvinism is showing” and suddenly out of the clear blue sky, five or six Calvinist supporters descended on me as though they were roping a calf. I was on my back, feet in the air and the Calvinist cowboys, surrounding me, hands in the air in triumph, had roped another one and branded it as an unbeliever. Poor little calf!

    ROTFL BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA oh honestly… that was the funniest thing ever. I was already laughing after I read Robbies comment under another article and then I read yours and I was left gasping for air I was laughing so hard.

  39. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    >> I came out of that discussion with my eyes crossed and my body twisted like a pretzel

    Oh my gosh… ROTFL again.

  40. Redeemed says:

    It is the wee hours of the morning in my neck of the woods and I too am LMHO
    over Carolyn’s description of being lassoed and hogtied by the “Calvinist cowboys”. Who says we don’t have a sense of humor here?

    Oh my, I have been there and have been tossed unceremoniously from a certain site that posted an article calling free will a devilish dogma! When I said otherwise they pounced on me like I was Satan himself. I was informed that I was an ignoramus – that was the nicest thing they said – and informed me that I was not welcome in their little Calvinist vacuum.

  41. Carolyn says:

    Ah, you girls laugh because you also have passed through that dark valley of death and you are relieved to be out in the sunshine, among the smiling faces and twirling figures of those who are chanting “freewill” “freewill” “freewill” without the slightest fear. Redeemed…get some sleep!

  42. Michael says:

    Truthful Conversation all I can say here is that Frank Retief preached the true gospel and had a huge passion for the lost so I can conclude that there was no belief in the elect as being predestined. He believed that all mankind can be saved if they accepted the call of the cross and repented. I never heard the false gospel of predestination there.

    The Frank that I knew years ago was a man that walks his talk…a really wonderful character…he had deep and true humility and really loved the Saviour. I attended his bible studies and never heard any mention of predestination in the context of Calvin’s doctrine. He was totally against the tongues teachings as well.

    I cannot speak for him now and what his views are.

    I have been around a long time and seen many things happen in the church. I’ve seen bad things and some good but generally the church is slipping downwards. Contrary to what the universal church is saying we are going the other way…the bible tells us that…we are falling away in the last days.
    The Universal preachers that are preaching Dominionism, revival etc have got it ALL WRONG.

    As you know I am totally against Calvin’s interpretation and have been outspoken against it…labeling it as folly and wicked.

    Frank has retired now; he ended up as bishop of CESA prior to retirement. He took over from the late Stephen Bradley another true saint of God.

    Having said this I am wary of all churches today, they have it seems been contaminated with erroneous doctrines more so today than ever before and false teachings are creeping in everywhere.

    It was not like that in the past, I remember the AOG under John Bond and Noel Cromhout preached “fire and brimstone” gospel. You’ll never see this in charismatic (Pentecostal churches) today…if there is then I’ve never seen it.

    The church has gone astray…”All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all”…Isaiah 53:6
    and this blog is doing a sterling and Holy Spirit inspired job in unraveling the deceits that has crept in many ways and issues.

    I agree with what Deb’s is doing…she is exposing false doctrines and teachings that CREEP in everywhere, in reformed churches, in charismatic churches and extreme teachings like word of faith and RC which are just blatantly false.

    A church group might begin well and be sound but if error, minor or blatant is allowed to creep in and the true message of the Cross is compromised and eventually lost.
    “A little leaven leavens the whole lump.” Gal 5:9.

  43. Truthful Conversation says:


    Thanks for the reply comment. I must just tell you though, that I was at AOG in the days of John Bond and Noel Cromhout..enough said.

  44. Sharon says:

    My very best friend of 53 years crossed into Calvinism back in 2004. We grew up in the same little church in Michigan, USA. Frankly I was heart broken to hear she got so involved into the Cult of Calvinism. My grandmother called them “Hardshells” which is a Tennessee word that Hyper-Calvinist do not like being called.. I know of no other issue that continues to divide Baptist Churches today than the stinking festering issue of Calvinism. Her husband and adult son are lost and sometimes I think she has the attitude of, well they must not be part of the elect so they can’t be saved. That bothers me a lot. Even today I cried out to the Lord that in his love and mercy that He would save both of them before its too late. One day I will show her the supposed “Conversion Statements” of Calvin and John MacArthur. No repentance, no mention of Jesus. Hmmmmmmm.

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    Thank you Debs for posting this!

    Calvinism/Reformed theology is the Trojan Horse of the faith and one of the greatest enemies of the Gospel!

    John MacArthur is widely accepted by evangelicals who are often unwittinly sucked into Calvinism via MacArthur. I know personally several who came to believe in Calvinism via this gateway.

    Another is Ray Comfort’s The Way of the Master which is widely promoted has been a gateway to a false gospel to the undiscerning.
    Check out this link: His way of reaching the lost is confrontational, not loving and reflects the false doctrine of “Lordship Salvation”.
    Quote from the article exposing this:

    HOWEVER, the big problem with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron is that they teach the damnable heresy of LORDSHIP SALVATION. Like all Lordship Salvationists, Ray Comfort errantly teaches that salvation by faith ALONE in Jesus Christ is not enough to save someone. That is a false Gospel. According to Ray Comfort, a person MUST also cease from their sinful lifestyle and give up worldly living to be saved. Thus, eternal life ceases to be a gift in Ray Comfort’s mind, and has now been turned into a reward. It is much more than a matter of mere semantics. The Bible teaches one Gospel, not two.

    You can fully expect that Calvinists will defend these men and their damnable doctrine because they are blinded by the enemy and their devotion to men and this results in twisting of the Scripture.

    This is much more than a minor difference in “philosophies” but rather souls hanging in the balance.

    Those of the Calvinist/Reformed faith love to get involved in debates, using their pet verses. The pride is so evident!

  45. john says:

    Thanks to those who seem to hate me for being a Christian who understands the gospel in a fashion similar to Calvin. What I read above comments, these have very little semblance to Calvin’s teaching, perhaps because Calvin sticks to the gospel of Jesus. We need not be afraid of a God who loves us enough to die for us, who knew us from before creation, who is totally and wholly in charge. I encourage us to consider David, who advised…”forbid it I should raise my hand…” Let the family of God, seek unity in the Spirit not in agreement.

    Be well in the Lord, those who love him. Let Him be sovereign. We prefer our God our way one supposes, but he is not our doll to dress up in our clothes.

  46. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> Thanks to those who seem to hate me

    You start your comment off by lying. You sayd “Thanks to those who seem to hate me” No one hates you John. When someone tells you that you are following false teaching it’s because WE LOVE YOU.

    >> Calvin sticks to the gospel of Jesus.

    Really, how so? When God laid out the commandments to Moses that said Thou Shalt Not kill, who went against that commandment and murdered people? That’s right, John Calvin. How can you John follow the doctrine of a murderer? Find one instance in the bible where born again men/women murdered people that did not agree with their teaching. Did any disciple of Jesus murder people because they did not agree with others? No. Does the bible tell us that we must murder those who we don’t agree with? NEVER. How can you follow after the teachings of a man who murdered people indiscriminately and had a smile on his face when he did those evil things?

  47. Andre says:

    Hi there. I am sorry that I have not had time to read through all the comments made, but it seems to me that the concept of “Calvinism” is the “fly in the ointment”. Maybe a brief summary of the points where anyone would care to explain which of the central doctrines of Calvinism (Normally TULIP) disagrees with the Bible and what alternative position is held by those who wish to respond (supported by texts seen in context and in line with Scripture as a whole).
    Thank you.

  48. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Hi Andre

    We have many articles on Calvinism that explain just that, Calvinism is very complex and one article does not do it justice. Please read all articles under this section: The Truth about Calvinism Thank you :)

  49. Michael says:

    Ironside on Calvinism
    TBC Staff

    Oct 23 2009
    On Calvinism

    “Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans:8:29-30

    , the other chapter is Ephesians:1:5 and 11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus”

    “D.L. Moody used to put it very simply the elect are the ‘whosoever wills’ the non-elect ‘whosoever wont’s’. This is exactly what scripture teaches, the invitation is to all, those who accept it are the elect. Remember, we are never told that Christ died for the elect”.

    “Whosoever means, whosoever.” Only a biased theologian, with an axe to grind, could ever think that it meant only the elect.”

    –H.A. Ironside

    And how are you saved…by Harry Ironside

  50. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Michael!! Welcome back :)

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