Calvinism – What would these Pastors have done if they were there?

What would these pastors have done if they were there

2 Youtube videos by Tom Lessing.  The shocking truth about Calvinism; that God does NOT love everyone savingly…  Hear John MacArthur, Paul Washer, John Piper and Robert Morey speak.

and Part 2 …

Please read “Psalm 5:5 – ‘God hates sinners'” for a better understanding of Calvinists’ twisting of Scripture.

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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Jonathan Kirby,

I accidentally stumbled upon this thread and read your comment. I went to the Day by Day with Christ page you linked to. I just wanted to mention to you that I have noticed some of the people you quote from are Calvinist. C.H. Spurgeon and F.B. Meyer are two that I noticed immediately. Also, you quoted D.L. Moody who was accepted by Calvinists, though it appears that he did believe in free will and didn’t hold to the 5 point Calvinist doctrine. The Moody Bible Institute holds that it has Calvinist leanings (provided in the link below). I’m not saying we can’t learn and grow from the teachings of those with a differing theology, but that we should be aware of where they stand. I’m not sure if you were aware of this before, just wanted to take a moment to point it out in case you weren’t. God bless!


@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
i found myself with reformed people all around me and was going to ”grace reformed baptist church” & ”grace canadian reformed church”. thank Jesus for keeping me safe and soveriegn elect tulip is an assault on God’s character!. i have been trying to help a family and a puritan/ calvinist for over a year and at 1st they knocked my image of God to slippery slopes. i thought i was going insane! they all said i would come to know the deeper truths and a deeper God. why does a person have to gradually believe in something ? cuz i think its not true , JESUS’ GOSPEL IS A simple gospel. i leave areas grey where elect is mentioned and never should we make a whole doctrine that colors the whole bible on an obscure scripture thats not clear. well after me going back to church history and reformation -fanatically reading my bible God turned the saga for good and i found i identify most with anabaptists. the great commission is whats important. I AM REALLY WORRIED OF HOW INSIDIOUS CALVINISM IS AND HOW POPULAR IT IS. IT IS INFILTRATING EVERYWHERE. I DON’T THINK MOST CHRISTIANS KNOW WHAT THEY’RE GETTING INTO. I WAS IN THE WORD OF FAITH MOVEMENT WHEN A NEW CHRISTIAN AND U CAN GET INDOCTRINATED. BLINDED. ETC BY SATAN! THX FOR SITE GOD KEEP U SAFE!

Deborah (Discerning the World)


Praise our Lord Jesus that He kept your safe and opened your eyes to the truth. Yes Calvinism is a devilish doctrine and it catches many. And adherents of Calvinism turn out to be the nastiest people on the block when you question their doctrine – the spirit of John Calvin (A MURDERER) and their POPE leaps out and wants to do all kinda of evil to you.

I stand very firm against Calvinism and people who follow it. And you are right it’s infiltrating everywhere because it’s a offshoot of Roman Catholicism and we are in the End times where Mystery Babylon is taking over.

Truthful Conversation


Regarding your comment #12.

I used to live in Cape Town and I had a friend who belonged to St James. I used to go with her to ladies meetings. I must admit that as I still believed in speaking in tongues, I was shocked that she did not practise speaking in tongues. I often heard her talking to friends saying tongues were a lie and a heresy. Of course now I know that tongues have ceased. At that time Frank Retief was still there.. although I do not think he is the Bishop in SA now.

However, having recently looked up St James church online, I see that they describe themselves as being Reformed. They are also linked to the Evangelical Alliance. Are you saying that they are, or are not Calvinists? As far as I can see they are Calvinists.


@ barbbfly:

Adherents to Reformed/Calvinism absolutely love to debate such as James White of Alpha & Omaga Ministries. They delight in tripping up those who underestimage their expertise and preparation. There is no love in their debating, only the desire to flaunt their “scholarship” and make a fool out of their opponent. The pride is astoundingly evident in their manner and their words. When challenged, they come out swinging, apouting Bible verses taken out of context and twisted to fit their perverted theology.

Then there are others who come across as benevolent and tolerant and keep their beliefs more subdued the better to entrap.

Then there are those who have discernment blogs exposing false teachers and thereby establish credibility with the unwary.

Then there is Paul Washer who snags people with his passionate speeches.

They seem to have the ability to morph themselves into many forms better than the worst of the false teachers. And they manage to get a pass from teachers who should know better and should be exposing them such as Moriel and others who end up blurring the lines between truth and error.

Thank the Lord you came out unscathed and eyes wide open to this false belief system. It seems to be gaining traction rather than slowing down.


Redeemed, yes…it is as you say. Calvinist forums run the from the ridiculous to the sublime. There are some very educated, articulate, masterful and yet, dodgy Calvinists. I was commenting on a site that wasn’t Calvinist per se but with Calvinist readership. Someone made a comment and I said…”your Calvinism is showing” and suddenly out of the clear blue sky, five or six Calvinist supporters descended on me as though they were roping a calf. I was on my back, feet in the air and the Calvinist cowboys, surrounding me, hands in the air in triumph, had roped another one and branded it as an unbeliever. Poor little calf! I was more wary after that and more careful to keep my Calvinist discernment cloaked.

Anyhow…many keep their Calvinist dogma undercover because they have an agenda! They must first convince you of their orthodoxy…and then slide you into their “deeper” truths. Here’s what CARM – Matt Slick says after he explains the TULIP doctrine…

The Hyper-Calvinist emphasizes the sovereignty of God to such an extent that man’s human responsibility is denied. In actuality, Hyper-Calvinism is a rejection of historic Calvinist thought. Hyper-Calvinism denies that the gospel call applies to all, and/or denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, and/or denies the gospel offer to the non-elect, and/or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal, and/or denies that there is such a thing as “common grace,” and/or denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect. Calvinists do not agree with the Hyper-Calvinists.”

Draw your own conclusions…


So now we have Hyper-Calvinism and Calvinism lite as explained on this site by John Fortune…from one of the comments above:

@John F…I read your article and I remembered back when I first landed in the Calvinist camp from my charismatic background. There was a discussion being carried on and using words like Original Sin…I was arguing from the Biblical lens and they were arguing from the Calvinist lens – quite different as your article points out. Same with words like election, predestination, perseverance, lordship…all Biblical words but used by a Calvinist, they become twisted into a different doctrine. I came out of that discussion with my eyes crossed and my body twisted like a pretzel…had no idea what just happened. Yes, there are verses that can be used to support TULIP…when you start with a TULIP agenda. But did you know, that you can do the same thing with ANY dogma or cult…been there done that. You can start with an agenda and you can prove it from Scripture. How about starting with Scripture by the light of the Holy Spirit and ending with doctrine?

Yes, Redeemed, I believe that Calvinism is gaining traction because people who disagree are afraid to speak up. They just want to believe that we’re all Christians battling the forces of evil. Isn’t it wonderful that we can unite as a stronger force against the evil Third Wave Doctrines? The distorted leaven of Calvinism remains hidden. However, God himself is still able to separate the wheat from the chaff and any one on the side of Truth will be brought back to the simple gospel of forgiveness and repentance sans TULIP indoctrination.

DTW is one of the few sites that is brave enough to take on the error of Calvinism. It’s not a popular option.

Deborah (Discerning the World)


>> ”your Calvinism is showing” and suddenly out of the clear blue sky, five or six Calvinist supporters descended on me as though they were roping a calf. I was on my back, feet in the air and the Calvinist cowboys, surrounding me, hands in the air in triumph, had roped another one and branded it as an unbeliever. Poor little calf!

ROTFL BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA oh honestly… that was the funniest thing ever. I was already laughing after I read Robbies comment under another article and then I read yours and I was left gasping for air I was laughing so hard.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

>> I came out of that discussion with my eyes crossed and my body twisted like a pretzel

Oh my gosh… ROTFL again.


It is the wee hours of the morning in my neck of the woods and I too am LMHO
over Carolyn’s description of being lassoed and hogtied by the “Calvinist cowboys”. Who says we don’t have a sense of humor here?

Oh my, I have been there and have been tossed unceremoniously from a certain site that posted an article calling free will a devilish dogma! When I said otherwise they pounced on me like I was Satan himself. I was informed that I was an ignoramus – that was the nicest thing they said – and informed me that I was not welcome in their little Calvinist vacuum.


Ah, you girls laugh because you also have passed through that dark valley of death and you are relieved to be out in the sunshine, among the smiling faces and twirling figures of those who are chanting “freewill” “freewill” “freewill” without the slightest fear. Redeemed…get some sleep!


Truthful Conversation all I can say here is that Frank Retief preached the true gospel and had a huge passion for the lost so I can conclude that there was no belief in the elect as being predestined. He believed that all mankind can be saved if they accepted the call of the cross and repented. I never heard the false gospel of predestination there.

The Frank that I knew years ago was a man that walks his talk…a really wonderful character…he had deep and true humility and really loved the Saviour. I attended his bible studies and never heard any mention of predestination in the context of Calvin’s doctrine. He was totally against the tongues teachings as well.

I cannot speak for him now and what his views are.

I have been around a long time and seen many things happen in the church. I’ve seen bad things and some good but generally the church is slipping downwards. Contrary to what the universal church is saying we are going the other way…the bible tells us that…we are falling away in the last days.
The Universal preachers that are preaching Dominionism, revival etc have got it ALL WRONG.

As you know I am totally against Calvin’s interpretation and have been outspoken against it…labeling it as folly and wicked.

Frank has retired now; he ended up as bishop of CESA prior to retirement. He took over from the late Stephen Bradley another true saint of God.

Having said this I am wary of all churches today, they have it seems been contaminated with erroneous doctrines more so today than ever before and false teachings are creeping in everywhere.

It was not like that in the past, I remember the AOG under John Bond and Noel Cromhout preached “fire and brimstone” gospel. You’ll never see this in charismatic (Pentecostal churches) today…if there is then I’ve never seen it.

The church has gone astray…”All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all”…Isaiah 53:6
and this blog is doing a sterling and Holy Spirit inspired job in unraveling the deceits that has crept in many ways and issues.

I agree with what Deb’s is doing…she is exposing false doctrines and teachings that CREEP in everywhere, in reformed churches, in charismatic churches and extreme teachings like word of faith and RC which are just blatantly false.

A church group might begin well and be sound but if error, minor or blatant is allowed to creep in and the true message of the Cross is compromised and eventually lost.
“A little leaven leavens the whole lump.” Gal 5:9.

Truthful Conversation


Thanks for the reply comment. I must just tell you though, that I was at AOG in the days of John Bond and Noel Cromhout..enough said.


My very best friend of 53 years crossed into Calvinism back in 2004. We grew up in the same little church in Michigan, USA. Frankly I was heart broken to hear she got so involved into the Cult of Calvinism. My grandmother called them “Hardshells” which is a Tennessee word that Hyper-Calvinist do not like being called.. I know of no other issue that continues to divide Baptist Churches today than the stinking festering issue of Calvinism. Her husband and adult son are lost and sometimes I think she has the attitude of, well they must not be part of the elect so they can’t be saved. That bothers me a lot. Even today I cried out to the Lord that in his love and mercy that He would save both of them before its too late. One day I will show her the supposed “Conversion Statements” of Calvin and John MacArthur. No repentance, no mention of Jesus. Hmmmmmmm.

Burning Lamp wrote:

Thank you Debs for posting this!

Calvinism/Reformed theology is the Trojan Horse of the faith and one of the greatest enemies of the Gospel!

John MacArthur is widely accepted by evangelicals who are often unwittinly sucked into Calvinism via MacArthur. I know personally several who came to believe in Calvinism via this gateway.

Another is Ray Comfort’s The Way of the Master which is widely promoted has been a gateway to a false gospel to the undiscerning.
Check out this link: His way of reaching the lost is confrontational, not loving and reflects the false doctrine of “Lordship Salvation”.
Quote from the article exposing this:

HOWEVER, the big problem with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron is that they teach the damnable heresy of LORDSHIP SALVATION. Like all Lordship Salvationists, Ray Comfort errantly teaches that salvation by faith ALONE in Jesus Christ is not enough to save someone. That is a false Gospel. According to Ray Comfort, a person MUST also cease from their sinful lifestyle and give up worldly living to be saved. Thus, eternal life ceases to be a gift in Ray Comfort’s mind, and has now been turned into a reward. It is much more than a matter of mere semantics. The Bible teaches one Gospel, not two.

You can fully expect that Calvinists will defend these men and their damnable doctrine because they are blinded by the enemy and their devotion to men and this results in twisting of the Scripture.

This is much more than a minor difference in “philosophies” but rather souls hanging in the balance.

Those of the Calvinist/Reformed faith love to get involved in debates, using their pet verses. The pride is so evident!


Thanks to those who seem to hate me for being a Christian who understands the gospel in a fashion similar to Calvin. What I read above comments, these have very little semblance to Calvin’s teaching, perhaps because Calvin sticks to the gospel of Jesus. We need not be afraid of a God who loves us enough to die for us, who knew us from before creation, who is totally and wholly in charge. I encourage us to consider David, who advised…”forbid it I should raise my hand…” Let the family of God, seek unity in the Spirit not in agreement.

Be well in the Lord, those who love him. Let Him be sovereign. We prefer our God our way one supposes, but he is not our doll to dress up in our clothes.

Deborah (Discerning the World)


>> Thanks to those who seem to hate me

You start your comment off by lying. You sayd “Thanks to those who seem to hate me” No one hates you John. When someone tells you that you are following false teaching it’s because WE LOVE YOU.

>> Calvin sticks to the gospel of Jesus.

Really, how so? When God laid out the commandments to Moses that said Thou Shalt Not kill, who went against that commandment and murdered people? That’s right, John Calvin. How can you John follow the doctrine of a murderer? Find one instance in the bible where born again men/women murdered people that did not agree with their teaching. Did any disciple of Jesus murder people because they did not agree with others? No. Does the bible tell us that we must murder those who we don’t agree with? NEVER. How can you follow after the teachings of a man who murdered people indiscriminately and had a smile on his face when he did those evil things?


Hi there. I am sorry that I have not had time to read through all the comments made, but it seems to me that the concept of “Calvinism” is the “fly in the ointment”. Maybe a brief summary of the points where anyone would care to explain which of the central doctrines of Calvinism (Normally TULIP) disagrees with the Bible and what alternative position is held by those who wish to respond (supported by texts seen in context and in line with Scripture as a whole).
Thank you.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Hi Andre

We have many articles on Calvinism that explain just that, Calvinism is very complex and one article does not do it justice. Please read all articles under this section: The Truth about Calvinism Thank you :)


Ironside on Calvinism
TBC Staff

Oct 23 2009
On Calvinism

“Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans:8:29-30

, the other chapter is Ephesians:1:5 and 11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus”

“D.L. Moody used to put it very simply the elect are the ‘whosoever wills’ the non-elect ‘whosoever wont’s’. This is exactly what scripture teaches, the invitation is to all, those who accept it are the elect. Remember, we are never told that Christ died for the elect”.

“Whosoever means, whosoever.” Only a biased theologian, with an axe to grind, could ever think that it meant only the elect.”

–H.A. Ironside

And how are you saved…by Harry Ironside

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Michael!! Welcome back :)

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