John MacArthur – Transformation of Grace Community Church
This information has been painstakingly put together by Bob Johnson over a period of several years. It’s shocking and I believe it’s the truth. Bob has been attacked by John MacArthur and Phil Johnson who have tried to discredit him, but the facts remain standing strong.
I am going to present this information only because I stand for the truth AT ALL COSTS. [Edited by DTW: 31 Mar 2010 – I have made a public apology too everyone I told that MacArthur is legitimate. I am very very sorry for this. I trusted MacArthur and I was deceived and I led others to believe he was ok. Every bit of credibility I gave John MacArthur I retract. I did not understand the doctrine of Calvinism at the time, now I do. Please see here for my sincerest apology: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/30/what-do-you-do-when]
Now before anyone gets all carried away, I am not a Calvinist. I am a born again Christian and my ‘denomination’ is what lies between the pages of the Word of God. I believe in free will and I believe that repentance of sin is an ongoing essential part of your relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. We are not predestined, or elected by God before the foundation of the world (for biblical predestination understanding please see What it Really Means to be Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated – The Biblical Truth); I won’t even get onto the topic of John Calvin as that’s another story all on it’s own and Calvinism has it’s roots in Rome.
Are there people who are genuinely saved under GCC – Absolutely, when they find out the truth as to what Calvinism is all about, they will leave there sooner or later. God knows our hearts. He knows what we think, He knows what we believe, He knows everything about us. I believe we are all judged on what we know up to a certain point in time. (I am NOT talking about sin here, or using this as an excuse to say, “oh I never accepted Jesus, because I didn’t know anything, or no one told me.) Because the Bible commands you to study to find yourself approved anyhow, so no one has any excuse. And if you have the Holy Spirit in your life you will never get something so wrong or believe and follow something so wrong as the doctrine of Calvinism and the fruit of John MacArthur speaks for itself.Now when the Holy Spirit reveals to us what’s really going on behind the scenes, this is when we are now faced with a massive decision of “should I stay or should I go” – will you accept the false teachings that are slithering its way in, or will I stand firm on the Word of God and warn others about what is happening and get out because you will not tolerate men insulting Jesus Christ! When the Holy Spirit has warned you, you can’t ever say to Jesus one day, “I didn’t know”, because you did know, but you CHOSE (free will) TO IGNORE IT. And in doing so you continued to stay and support ungodly doctrines.
Even if John MacArthur carried on preaching what sounded like the greatest gospel from the pulpit (which we know is not because it’s Calvinistic) – he will slowly but surely lead his congregation astray more and more astray as he turns to Rome along with every other denomination in these end times.
Will his preaching start to change? Will it become a more emergent gospel? It appears has as he is embracing contemplative spirituality for some time: John MacArthur and Dallas Willard – Two Contemplating Calvinists
Does John MacArthur have to make a choice like the rest of us to follow Jesus Christ 100% or follow Satan instead? Absolutely.
We ALL sit in the same position. Jesus Christ is LORD, He is our KING, He judges ALL, NO ONE gets an ‘immunity card’ from GOD.
Ok let’s get onto the info shall we…
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The Transformation of John Macarthur’s Grace Community Church
How Change Agents are Transitioning GCC into the New World Order
Introduction –
by Bob Johnson On January 2, 2005,
John MacArthur gave a sermon to his congregation in which he described the state of his church. In that sermon John MacArthur stated, “I feel like part of the ministry I must discharge before the Lord and you is a ministry of warning about danger. Our church is not in particular danger from some dominating iniquity. It is not in particular danger from some infiltrating heresy. It is not in danger from some loss of resources financially or human. Everything you can see on the surface looks to be good. And we would have every reason to think we stand, and still be on the brink of a fall.”
John MacArthur said that his church was not in particular danger from infiltrating heresy. This paper will show that a dangerous heresy has infiltrated his church; a heresy known generally as the church growth movement. And this paper will show that this movement, being backed by globalists and being used to fulfill their one-world agenda, is now manipulating GCC into that same agenda.
John MacArthur said that his church is not in danger from some dominating iniquity.This paper will show that John MacArthur, being the dominant figure in his church, by disobeying the doctrine of separation, has allowed men to speak at his church and has allowed men to occupy leadership positions in his church, who, professing to be Christians, are actually dedicated to this one-world agenda.
John MacArthur said that everything you can see on the surface of his church looks to be good. I have been to his church, and I have attended his ministries, and I didn’t have to look beyond the surface to see that everything there is not good. I didn’t have to look beyond the surface of his church in order to see the presence of the Purpose Driven Church (PDC) model or the dialectic sessions employed by that model.
Nor did I have to look beyond the surface to see that John MacArthur’s international ministry, a ministry dedicated to “training church leaders worldwide,” is a church growth organization now partnering with foreign governments.In his “state of the church” sermon, John Macarthur said that GCC could be on the brink of a fall. GCC has gone beyond that brink and has now fallen. GCC is not holy, peculiar, sanctified and set apart, but rather, is a church that has now found common ground with Satanic agents pushing the one-world agenda via the church growth movement.
Allow me, by way of introduction, to say how I became interested in the goings on at GCC. My interest in GCC began in March 2005 when a local pastor invited me to accompany him to the GCC Pastor’s Conference being held that same month. Wanting to get information about the conference, I went to the GCC website where I noticed that Dr. Albert Mohler was to be a keynote speaker. I’d never heard of Dr. Mohler.
When curiosity pressed and an internet search ended, I had discovered information about Dr. Mohler that was not in accord with his Christian profession. I had discovered that Dr. Mohler was a Founding Fellow of the “think tank” of a UN-NGO. I had discovered that a UN-NGO is a non-governmental organization that is listed with the UN and that serves the UN and its one-world agenda. And therefore, I concluded that it must necessarily follow, that Dr. Mohler, being a Founding Fellow of this UN-NGO’s “think tank” which serves the UN and its agenda, must also serve the UN agenda. (It has since been confirmed to me by a colleague of Dr. Mohler’s that all the Fellows of the “think tank” of this UN-NGO are dedicated to the principles of the charter of the UN).
Knowing that the UN agenda is satanic and knowing that this agenda includes the destruction of Biblical Christianity, I wondered why John Macarthur would invite a man dedicated to this agenda into his church and into his pulpit. Was John Macarthur aware of Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation? (I have since learned that Dr. Mohler holds leadership positions in at least two organizations that serve the UN globalist agenda as NGO’s.)
I proceeded to write a letter to each of the members of the GCC elder board. I warned them all of Dr. Mohler’s associations. I received a reply from elder, Phil Johnson, dated March 23, 2005. Regarding Dr. Mohler’s associations, Mr. Johnson wrote, “We may not agree with all his associations, but nothing in Scripture demands that we separate from a true brother in Christ just because we may disagree with him on where he draws the circle of his own fellowship.” Is this a true statement? Is there nothing in Scripture that demands separation from a professed Christian who is affiliated with satanic evil (the UN)? Many verses in Scripture demand that Christians separate from evil and 2 Thess. 3:14 demands separation from professed Christians who are disobedient: “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him that he may be ashamed.” Scripture does demand separation from Dr. Mohler.
Why didn’t the GCC elders seem to be alarmed by Dr. Mohler’s affiliations? Why were they willing to ignore Biblical commands in order to continue a relationship with Dr. Mohler? Being dissatisfied with the reply I’d received from the GCC elder board, I then decided to make phone calls to several other GCC pastors in order to inform them of Dr. Mohler’s UN connection. Surely, they would all be concerned. I told them all that Dr. Mohler was a Fellow of a UN-NGO. What was their response? The pastors all angrily denied this easily verifiable fact. I then decided to write letters to about ten more GCC pastors. I expressed to them my concern that Dr. Mohler was a Fellow of a UN-NGO.
I received a reply from one pastor, Rick Mclean, responding for all, who, putting himself in the position of God, told me that the information I’d given them regarding Dr. Mohler’s associations “was of no eternal consequence.” This pastor also told me to never contact them again regarding this matter. In November 2005, a member of GCC agreed to meet me for a discussion. His name was George. I had asked George during a phone conversation if he’d be willing to have a discussion with me concerning some things at GCC that I had found troubling.
Two days after agreeing to meet with me, I received an email from George informing me that our meeting couldn’t take place. He told me that after checking with his church’s authorities, those authorities had decided not to allow our meeting to take place. George also informed me that only one man at GCC would meet with me. This was the same pastor who had already written to tell me to never contact them again. The email that George sent me was cc’d or copied to this same pastor and George informed me that any future correspondence I might have with him would also be cc’d to this pastor. The GCC authorities were exercising strict control over this situation. If Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation was “of no eternal consequence” according to pastors at GCC, then why were they taking such extraordinary measures in order to prevent the exposure of that affiliation? Why were they willing to go to such lengths in order to keep knowledge of that affiliation hidden from their church membership?
George was not allowed to meet me for a discussion in a local coffee shop. In not allowing one Christian to meet another, the GCC authorities had taken authority not given them in the Word of God. In not allowing one Christian to meet another, the GCC authorities were exercising a type of control that is cult-like. Believing the GCC authority’s behavior to be deceitful, and knowing they didn’t want Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation exposed, I decided to do just that at their March 2006 Pastor’s Conference. With Dr. Mohler again invited to be a keynote speaker, I stood outside their church and handed out flyers to the arriving pastors. The flyer was titled “Al Mohler and the United Nations.”
The flyer basically contained 2 facts: Al Mohler was a Founding Fellow of the Research Institute (think tank) of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) and that the ERLC was a UN-NGO. How did the GCC officials respond to these flyers being handed out on the public sidewalk outside their church? A GCC pastor, Eric Bancroft, with the head of security in tow, approached me and angrily told me that my flyer contained “all lies”; he then warned me that if I was to set foot on GCC property, I’d be arrested.
When I left GCC that evening, some GCC officials followed me and with the head of security present, they photographed my car and wrote down my license plate number. What began as an effort to warn the saints at GCC about Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation didn’t end with my threatened arrest. The GCC authorities had tried to keep Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation hidden from their membership. I couldn’t help but wonder what else they may be hiding. “Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.”
So, I decided to take a closer look into their ministries. GCC has eight subministries listed on their website. Two of these subministries are singles ministries. In looking through these two ministry’s web pages, I began to notice the presence of certain “buzzwords” common to the Purpose Driven Church (PDC) model. I noticed that much of the language used to describe the activities of these ministries was identical to the language used in the PDC model. Being very familiar with both the “buzzwords” and structure of the PDC, I strongly suspected that these two ministries were run on that model. My suspicions were confirmed after I attended both of these ministry’s Friday night “Bible studies.”
It was then that I realized that the church growth movement (CGM)/PDC model had infiltrated GCC in at least their two singles ministries. Knowing that the PDC movement had already spread like wildfire across America’s churches and knowing that once this movement gets a foothold in a church it will spread like cancer throughout the entire church body, I knew that it was my Christian duty to warn the saints at GCC about this real danger within. In the summer of 2006, I wrote a letter intended for the Christian remnant at GCC in which I warned them of this dangerous church growth infiltration.
It was titled “A Wake Up Call to the Saints at Grace Community Church.” While standing on the sidewalk across the street, I handed out copies to the congregants as they left the church. I handed out this letter of warning for three consecutive Sundays. On the second Sunday, as I handed out the “Wake-up Call,” the police were called. A black and white unit stopped and an officer approached me and told me that they had received a call claiming that I was harassing the congregation. I was handing out my letter to Christians as they left the church. I never harassed anyone and no one had complained to me.
Why were the police called? On that same day, in what could be construed as another act of intimidation, a GCC official approached me and told me that the GCC authorities were considering a lawsuit against me. Since handing out this letter of warning, I have continued to look into the activities of various ministries at GCC and I have continued to find activity indicating the presence of the church growth movement. For example, I have seen that a GCC ministry called The Master’s Academy International (TMAI), which states that its mission is to “train church leaders worldwide,” is actually a church growth organization that is now partnering with foreign governments. (A goal of the church growth movement is to merge the church into a partnership with business and government. This is called Communitarianism.)
Later, I will describe both the leadership and the activities of TMAI in detail. Grace Community Church (GCC) [www.gracechurch.org], pastored by John MacArthur is being subverted and transformed by the church growth movement (CGM). This paper will give a description of the CGM, how it manifests itself at GCC, and how it has infiltrated GCC.
Part I
How the Church Growth Movement Manifests Itself at GCC (The Guild and The Foundry)
The Master’s Academy International (TMAI) Leadership
TMAI Leader’s Transformational Language
TMAI Training Centers
TMAI Brazil
TMAI Honduras
TMAI South Africa
TMAI New Zealand
TMAI Mexico
TMAI Russia
TMAI-Philippines
The TMAI Leadership Community
Part IV
How the Church Growth Movement Infiltrated GCC
John Macarthur’s Ecumenical Roots
Deborah, I apologize – some of my comments may be a bit redundant and already covered by you in your responses to Fred. But some things are so important they can’t be repeated enough.
BTW, thx 4 the migraine fax – worked perfectly. Will let you know when I need a refill. lol
Burning Lamp
Nothing anyone says when it comes to explaining the truth becomes redundant. Repeat away 🙂
BL
About being chosen and about the the Blood of Jesus was written justttttt beaautifully!
Fred
Ok first things first.
Just to clear up this [gain information] confusion….
Now re-read the questions and answers in order. I never said anything about God having to gain information or even implied it – you thought assumed that by me saying, ‘God knows the future so he will know who will accept His Son or not’ as God having to gain info. So I being confused at your statement asked. How can God who knows EVERYTHING need to gain information from elsewhere….etc etc etc.
Ok, that solves that problem. So we can go back onto topic.
Fred
Predestination.
God does not forsee, he knows everything already. He knows how the whole world will end, because it’s His will that it will be that way. Does he choose people to be saved and others to go to hell? No, God has given us the choice to pick a side and because God knows everything He knows who will accept Him and who wont. Even the cherubs who worship God at his throne day in and day out, forever and ever are not forces, they do it because the want too. Just like God has given us the free will to either worship Him or follow Satan. God would have it that none go to hell.
So to say that God elects who will be saved and go to hell is a ghastly thought.
Now I am going to go back to my last questions to you…..
Is God lying or is John Calvin lying?
Tell me:
1) How do you know you are chosen? Because you are saved?
2) Or was it when you were saved, only then did you realise that you were chosen?
3) Or because you believe you are chosen you are therefore saved?
Let’s add another question:
Now Calvinism would agree that Jesus Christ came to save those who are chosen (predestined by God before birth). Yet the Bible says:
Luke 19:10: ‘For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.’
Is God lying, or is John Calvin lying?
BL writes,
No Fred, God did NOT choose individuals.
(In love), having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:5
Ummm, if I am not mistaken, “us” is a personal pronoun.
Deborah writes,
God does not forsee, he knows everything already. He knows how the whole world will end, because it’s His will that it will be that way. Does he choose people to be saved and others to go to hell? No, God has given us the choice to pick a side and because God knows everything He knows who will accept Him and who wont. Even the cherubs who worship God at his throne day in and day out, forever and ever are not forces, they do it because the want too. Just like God has given us the free will to either worship Him or follow Satan. God would have it that none go to hell.
So how does God know of those who will choose him? You seem to want to throw into the mix the Arminian view of free will, but as open theists, the more consistent Arminians, argue, even if God knew ahead of time who will choose Him those individuals had no other choice BUT to choose Him or God is made a liar. Now before you answer, do you see the dilemma with your thinking? I could challenge your proposition this way: Could those individuals God see choose him do anything other than choose to believe? In other words, could they then choose NOT to believe after God saw them? If they could not, then how is that not predestining individuals to salvation?
Deborah writes,
Let’s go to the Bible and find some verses to see if God takes pleasure in destroying the wicked (that He chose/elected to be lost which is the opposite of being chosen/elected to be saved)
Well, let’s go to the Bible and find some verse to see how God does take pleasure in destroying the wicked,
Psalm 5:4-6
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
Jeremiah 48:38
38 A general lamentation On all the housetops of Moab, And in its streets; For I have broken Moab like a vessel in which is no pleasure,” says the LORD. …
Jeremiah 22:24-30
24 ” As I live,” says the LORD, “though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet on My right hand, yet I would pluck you off;
25 “and I will give you into the hand of those who seek your life, and into the hand of those whose face you fear — the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and the hand of the Chaldeans.
26 “So I will cast you out, and your mother who bore you, into another country where you were not born; and there you shall die.
27 “But to the land to which they desire to return, there they shall not return.
28 “Is this man Coniah a despised, broken idol — A vessel in which is no pleasure? Why are they cast out, he and his descendants, And cast into a land which they do not know?
29 O earth, earth, earth, Hear the word of the LORD!
30 Thus says the LORD: ‘Write this man down as childless, A man who shall not prosper in his days; For none of his descendants shall prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling anymore in Judah.’ ”
Joshua 11:20
For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
So both God and John Calvin are telling the truth.
1) How do you know you are chosen? Because you are saved?
Because I am saved and the Bible tells me.
2) Or was it when you were saved, only then did you realise that you were chosen?
I learned I was chosen when I read the scriptures after I was saved. The reason for my salvation, if this is what you are asking, is that I was chosen from eternity past.
3) Or because you believe you are chosen you are therefore saved?
I didn’t really know anything about election until maybe 2 or 3 years after I was a Christian. I chaffed against the doctrine much in the same way you and your friend are.
4) What difference does it make to your life knowing that you are saved or chosen to be saved?
It makes me a consistent, Bible believing Christian.
Then,
Now Calvinism would agree that Jesus Christ came to save those who are chosen (predestined by God before birth).
Actually, historic Calvinism teaches that Jesus Christ came to seek and save the lost, a category out which the chosen were saved.
Fred
Nah, dude you are twisting my thinking here. You agree that God knows EVERYTHING (past, present, future) but then you ask me; “So how does God know of those who will choose him?” You can’t be serious right?
That makes no sense. What makes you a consistent bible believing Christian? Just being saved or being chosen to be saved?
The reason I am asking this is. I do not believe in predestination. However I am saved, born again – this I know. Does this now make me an in-consistent bible believing Christian?
Fred
You again twist what I am saying. There is a difference between God taking NO pleasure in destroying the wicked vs God’s wrath on those who are wicked beyond wicked and go out of their way to disobey Him.
My verses I quoted were based on Calvin’s blatant twisting of scripture to appease his conscience that he was chosen by God and therefore could judge people and have them sentenced to death because he thought they were reprobates. Would you do such a thing???
Fred
Rom. 8:29 The verse clearly states that the object of “foreknew” is “those who love him”, not those he predestined. And what God predestined is that such people would be conformed to the image of Jesus, not that certain elect people would be saved.
Hello Deborah, (and others here), I want to introduce myself to you all.
I have only recently come across this website and I wanted to say I have been saddened, challenged, and blessed by what I have read here, mostly by the comments and replies, along with heartfelt pleas for help in who, what, where, why, and how, to stay on the narrow way that the majority of ‘Christians’ have trouble believing in these days.
I can certainly identify with the tears that Deborah has spoken of, it can quite literally leave you gasping for breath when you see the deception that has been perpetrated against you by preachers, teachers, and pastors that you have held in high regard.
I read your rules and what you say there about casting your beliefs in stone sounds pretty good to me. As a result of some searingly painful events in my life recently, I determined to be as transparent as I can be, to fellow Christians. It makes life much easier, if you can all look right into the cupboard and see there are no skeletons. 😉
I was saved about 46 years ago, at the age of 7 one night in a little Baptist church. I have had a very up and down sort of life and have had to learn some very painful lessons.
I have had to unlearn a lot too.
I have spent the last 3 years learning about the various tentacles of deception that extend throughout the Church.
Some times I have cried at the betrayal by some teacher or author who has been a blessing and sometimes I have raged at the evil that I have learned of.
Sometimes I have cried for friends who are deceived and don’t, or won’t, see it.
May God Bless you all,
Shalom,
Alan.
Don’t have much time right now because I have to prepare for two major teaching times this up coming week:
At the very beginning of our exchange you, you responded to me by writing on May 10th,
There is a big difference between being chosen by God (being selected or handpicked) vs God knowing our futures before we are born therefore He knows who will accept His Son and who wont.
I am simply taking this as your statement as to how you believe predestination to be working. That is, God knows our futures before we are born and therefore knows who will accept His son and who will not. This is the standard, Arminian response to the concept of predestination. Is this your view or not?
I took it that you believe this standard view. And so I am merely pointing out to you that if you believe God chooses men to be saved or predestinates them to be saved, based upon what He sees in the future, I am telling you that what you are saying is that God HAS to gain information about that person that was previously outside His knowledge. Put another way, God looks into the future of a “as yet to happen world,” to see who chooses to believe the gospel.
You state that you do not believe in predestination, but the Bible teaches predestination at many places. I mentioned Acts 2:22,23 as one clear example. If you don’t believe in predestination, how on earth do you as a Christian understand these passages where the word is used?
Probably talk at you next Monday.
First off, please ignore me if this shakes you up too much.
I claim the very core beliefs of the gospel require predestination.
Note what the apostles say here (I chose ESV, but some translations are stronger for my point I think):
Acts 4:27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
We know that it was God’s will for Jesus to die for our sins. But, Jesus did not commit suicide. There were the roles of Herod and Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles, and the Jews. Was Jesus’ death accidental? Or did God bet that people would kill Him and then send Him at the right timing reacting to what man will do? Is God a reactor to us, and therefore not sovereign at all?
How in the world then does Jesus make this claim? (verse 18):
John 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
Since we are in John 10, what about this verse:
John10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
And, I cannot comprehend how to deal with Romans 8:30 or Romans 9 especially from verse 11 on without predestination.
But, my point is not to argue. My two points are this:
The Bible clearly has things about predestination and free will. Why are there all these discussions on what they “really” mean and how the ideas conflict and all. The Bible writes don’t see a conflict here. And especially, why do we think we understand God’s sovereignty so well? Remember what God says to Job near the end of the book? How well do we really understand God’s incommunicable attributes? Do we really understand divine things so easily? Is our understanding of sovereign kings really at par with God’s sovereignty? The Bible says they co-exist. Just take it. Proverbs 3:5-7. And coming from Job again, can we really understand the creator of the universe? If we can’t even explain how to make a computer from a hunk of metal, how in the world will we even imagine of fully understanding Him?
Second, can we be careful of indicting others? If we are not careful, we can be hindering the gospel. Also, I think there is a great deal of pride we can get from claiming to be more correct than a big name like MacArthur’s. So, I think there is danger here. But, my largest concern here is for the new believers and non-believers.
(And, if someone says, oh but I thought you were reformed… Well, in the least, even if they are eventually saved this is probably not glorifying God in front of them. Consider Job’s friends… we should proceed cautiously.)
Fred
>> This is the standard, Arminian response to the concept of predestination. Is this your view or not?
No this is not std Armenian response. I believe in eternal security and the sovereignty of God. However, I believe that God (out of His sovereignty) created us with a complete free will. This free will gives us the true ability to accept or reject God. This choice is not a preprogrammed choice, but rather it is a choice made from a truly free heart. I have no idea why Calvinists think that if one is not Calvinist then oh they MUST BE Armenienists. Really…
Summary:
Calvinists believe that God does not know everything (therefore not omniscient) hence He has to chose His followers in advance.
You believe that I believe that God has to look into the future to see who will accept His Son and who wont – whereas I do not believe this – God is omniscient and knows everything already and what He has already spoken will be fulfilled.
Acts 3:18 18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
This is eternity past (God announced beforehand), eternity present (spoken by the OT prophets as prophecy) and eternity future (God sending His Son to save mankind but only those who ACCEPT His sacrifice) which everything being fulfilled because God knows everything, and DECREED would happen before He even created the world.
I really dunno why I am having such a hard time explaining this… it’s simple dude.
This is NOT predestination – this is GOD KNOWING EVERYTHING, in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING, WHAT HE SPEAKS WILL COMES TO PASS and WILL BE FULFILLED.
But you know what? This is not really the crux of the matter here. This is really about men puffing themselves up, thinking they are elect by twisting scripture and making God love them no matter what they do! Calvinism forces God to do what they want and not the other way around.
Tell me, what part does the Holy Spirit play in your life? Do you have conviction of sin in your life? Do you repent if you sin? If so, why bother?
>> I am telling you that what you are saying is that God HAS to gain information about that person that was previously outside His knowledge. Put another way, God looks into the future of a “as yet to happen world,” to see who chooses to believe the gospel
NO FRED. He does not have to gain information because HE KNOWS EVERYTHING ALREADY. My goodness what part of “GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING ALREADY” are you battling to understand – HE ALREADY KNOWS WHO WILL ACCEPT HIS SON, not because He chose them, but because He KNOWS EVERYTHING ALREADY – there is no fortune telling involved in what I am saying. God is not a fortune teller – I AM NOT IMPLYING THIS so stop telling me that I am. You however are implying that God does not know everything so He has to choose his followers before they are born.
>> You state that you do not believe in predestination, but the Bible teaches predestination at many places. I mentioned Acts 2:22,23 as one clear example. If you don’t believe in predestination, how on earth do you as a Christian understand these passages where the word is used?
So I am not a bible-believing Christian and possibly a reprobate? But how would you ever know if I am chosen or not? Apparently John Calvin could…therefore he could pass judgement on men on earth – apparently he could see into the future.
I asked you if you agree that it is ok that John Calvin had people sentenced to death because he believed he was chosen and others weren’t because they disagreed with him? Is that a fruit of the Holy Spirit? Or did you not know this about Calvin? And this is a bit of a shock to you, hence you are not answering me.
Fred
Let’s go look at Acts 2:22-23
Acts 2:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know–
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
Acts 2:22-23 (King James Version)
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Who is the audience here? Israel?
Jews are God’s chosen people…right? Gentiles are saved by Grace… right?
Do you believe in Amillenialism?
Fred
I am not going to be able to reply from Monday till maybe Thursday. So it’s not that I am not answering you, it’s cos I can’t during that time. I will however try be online, but can’t guarantee it.
Sam
>> We know that it was God’s will for Jesus to die for our sins. But, Jesus did not commit suicide. There were the roles of Herod and Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles, and the Jews. Was Jesus’ death accidental? Or did God bet that people would kill Him and then send Him at the right timing reacting to what man will do? Is God a reactor to us, and therefore not sovereign at all?
I am sorry, but what has what you have said got to do with anything? Who on this topic or anywhere implied that Jesus committed suicide, or that God placed bets. Like… what the? So I am just going to ignore that statement… cos that’s just ridiculous.
>> If we are not careful, we can be hindering the gospel
So man can hinder the Gospel? Really? How powerful man must be…
>> Also, I think there is a great deal of pride we can get from claiming to be more correct than a big name like MacArthur’s.
I am so sorry to hear that John MacArthur is more prideful and more correct than you. Does John MacArthur teach people the truth and nothing but the truth or the Holy Spirit that abides in a born again Christian teach us the truth, guide, council, and lead us into the truth?
>> But, my largest concern here is for the new believers and non-believers. (And, if someone says, oh but I thought you were reformed… Well, in the least, even if they are eventually saved this is probably not glorifying God in front of them.
Oh well, then you better stop commenting eh, I mean with silly remarks as the one above. Unbelievers are not stupid. In fact most of them use their brains more often than supposed Christians
Canons of Dort
See here for full Canon: http://www.biblehelp.org/dort.htm
Hey Fred, and others that are debating the whole ‘predestination’ deal. I am not by a long chalk an adequate Bible scholar, but I think I may be able to inject some clarity to this discussion. I hope.
If you disagree, I stand ready for the executioner! 😉
The problem seems to be that you are thinking in terms of God having to LOOK into the FUTURE, to see who will choose to believe in Jesus.
God doesn’t have to do anything of the kind, because He is not bound by the limits of TIME as we are. He is the Eternal “I AM”.
I hesitate to quote C S Lewis here (because he was NOT a true Christian, going by his own statements), but I think he at least got this right when he said something like;
“God doesn’t look down the corridor of time to see if a person will turn to Him at some point in the ‘FUTURE”, but SEES that person doing so in His eternal ‘NOW’.”
Yes, I have paraphrased it and probably not very well, but you should be able to grasp the point okay that while for us there is a past, present, and future, God is outside of the stream of TIME and that’s why in John 8:58, Jesus said; ” Before Abraham was, I AM.”
It’s not a typo, or bad grammar that proves Jesus was not very well educated (Being a tradesman an’ all), no, He said it like that because it’s the only way to express His relationship with TIME truthfully.
If He had said; “…I WAS.”, it would have conveyed a different relationship to TIME, but Jesus deliberately used a PRESENT tense to describe His existence in relationship to someone who was, as far as the audience was concerned, a person from the pages of history, or the PAST.
Put another way; Relative to the hearers, Abraham WAS.
Relative to Abraham, Jesus IS.
More properly, from Abraham’s point of view, Jesus ‘WOULD BE’, one day in Abe’s future, but from Jesus’ point of view, He ‘IS’; at the same time as Abraham, before Abraham, and after Abraham.
The same principle holds in the other direction; As far as we are concerned, the second coming is still future. As far as God is concerned, it IS.
In the same way that in Revelation, Jesus is called; “… the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”, from God’s point of view, the end of the world has been and gone already.
It’s hard to state without falling into the trap of ascribing to God a past, present, and future, because we can’t comprehend the non-existence of TIME, so we don’t really have the vocabulary to describe it.
Is it arrogant to talk like this about God? I don’t think so. He has given us the information we need in His Word and He requires us to seek for the Truth, diligently. That means making an effort folks. Not so we can be saved, but so we can grow in our knowledge and understanding of Him. It’s a measure of how much we love the Truth, how diligently we seek it and we all know (or should) what happens to those who “…loved not the truth…”, don’t we?
The problem we are dealing with is a little like the problem that faced Ann Sullivan, the woman who took on the challenge of teaching a 7 year old Helen Keller to read and write and speak, even though she was profoundly deaf and totally blind. How do you explain the colour ‘green’ to such a person? The reality is that she probably never really understood the word as we do, but she didn’t let it hold her from gaining a degree (at least one) and learning several languages and writing several books.
I believe we are very much like Helen Keller when it comes to our understanding of God, but we can use what knowledge He has given us and strive to understand it more deeply and I believe the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth as we do so. One day, we will see clearly, but until then, let’s not ever assume that we have figured it all out and have nothing left to learn about any subject.
Some things in God’s Word are very hard to understand and I think this subject is one of them, but please let’s not just accept Calvinism, or Arminianism, or any other ‘pat answers’, but let’s rather accept that there are somethings we won’t totally understand until He comes to take us home.
To those of you who may wish to throw something at me, can you please make it something soft, like rotten tomatoes, or such? I bruise easily. 😉
God Bless you all,
Shalom,
Alan.
PS: If you wonder about ‘Shalom’, I fellowship with some beautiful Messianic Jews occasionally and it has become a habitual, but also heartfelt, expression of blessing for those to whom it is addressed.
Alan,
Thanks for your post. It was very refreshing and you seem to have a very gentle spirit.
Alan, I think this echoes much of what we have said here, just put a little differently. Of course God knows the end from the beginning and He is the great I AM, not the I Was or Will be.
When Christ died for ALL he took the sins of the WHOLE WORLD upon Himself and paid the penalty for every sin committed, past, present and future.
Unless I missed something it seems you are preaching to the choir. The disagreement with Calvinism would be that He died for all, not some selected/elected few as they teach.
Just a little aside exhortation – be very careful with the Messianic Fellowship. Many pitfalls there. Don’t think Jesus ever meant to separate his sheep into two herds. The Bible says we are all one, Jew same as Greek. Yes, make the connection on how He fulfilled the Law, but then move on into the newfound freedom and leave the past in the past. Isn’t that biblical? I have seen too many folks in Messianic groups go off the track. If you are going to throw anything at me, I prefer marshmallows.
The verse clearly states that the object of “foreknew” is “those who love him”, not those he predestined. And what God predestined is that such people would be conformed to the image of Jesus, not that certain elect people would be saved.
I don’t see how you get make that conclusion from the exegesis of Romans 8:29. I am guessing you think men love God first or make a choice for God and then they are predestined? How can a saved person NOT be conformed to the image of Christ? You can’t really have one with out their other, right?
No this is not std Armenian response.
Just so we are clear, Armenians are a people group over in Turkey and the Black Sea region. Arminians are individuals who follow the theology of Jacob Arminius.
I believe in eternal security and the sovereignty of God. However, I believe that God (out of His sovereignty) created us with a complete free will. This free will gives us the true ability to accept or reject God. This choice is not a preprogrammed choice, but rather it is a choice made from a truly free heart. I have no idea why Calvinists think that if one is not Calvinist then oh they MUST BE Armenienists. Really…
Well, Calvinists believe what they believe because the Bible is rather clear that men do not operate from a “truly free heart.” We make free choices, in that humanity makes choices freely, but it is according to our nature, which the Bible repeatedly says is in bondage to sinfulness. In other words, I make the free choice to be a nice philanthropist or a thief. A loving husband and father or a pornographer.
Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Slavery implies a condition, that being, we were slaves to our sin. We were delivered (passive tense) to be slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Back to the point of predestination. If predestination is God looking beforehand as to what decision a person will make for Christ in the future, can that person freely change his mind at a later point? Why or why not? If they can, was God mistaken as to his predestination based upon what he knew beforehand? If no, how can the person’s decision be considered “truly free?”
Calvinists believe that God does not know everything (therefore not omniscient) hence He has to chose His followers in advance.
Not sure where you are getting that from.
You believe that I believe that God has to look into the future to see who will accept His Son and who wont – whereas I do not believe this – God is omniscient and knows everything already and what He has already spoken will be fulfilled.
Okay, then how is a person truly free to make a decision about salvation? If God is omniscient and knows everything already, would knowing about the future free decision of a person for Christ “predestinate” that person making that choice? Thus, it is no longer a truly free choice? Right or Wrong?
This is eternity past (God announced beforehand), eternity present (spoken by the OT prophets as prophecy) and eternity future (God sending His Son to save mankind but only those who ACCEPT His sacrifice) which everything being fulfilled because God knows everything, and DECREED would happen before He even created the world.
Okay, how exactly did God know of “only those who ACCEPT His sacrifice?” Did he have to gather that information (which means he is no longer omniscient)? Or did he decree them to make that such a decision, which comes back around to he predestinated a person’s salvation? I don’t mean to repeat myself, but you don’t seem to be following the logic of your own position?
This is NOT predestination – this is GOD KNOWING EVERYTHING, in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING, WHAT HE SPEAKS WILL COMES TO PASS and WILL BE FULFILLED.
Alright, but again, if God knows everything, is in control of everything, and what He speaks comes to pass and will be fulfilled (all of which I affirm whole heartedly), how then can you say a person is truly free in his or her decisions? The person would have no other choice BUT to choose the gospel or God is made a liar? Or, God predestinated the person’s salvation based upon His free grace just as the Bible states.
But you know what? This is not really the crux of the matter here. This is really about men puffing themselves up, thinking they are elect by twisting scripture and making God love them no matter what they do! Calvinism forces God to do what they want and not the other way around.
That is a gross inaccuracy and really a smear and you would do yourself well in future discussions with others to disabuse yourself of such groundless accusations.
Jews are God’s chosen people…right? Will be in the future, yes.
Gentiles are saved by Grace… right? Yes. So are Jews by the way.
Do you believe in Amillenialism? No. I have an entire blog dedicated to defending biblical premillennialism (http://premillennialism.wordpress.com).
BL states,
When Christ died for ALL he took the sins of the WHOLE WORLD upon Himself and paid the penalty for every sin committed, past, present and future.
Unless I missed something it seems you are preaching to the choir. The disagreement with Calvinism would be that He died for all, not some selected/elected few as they teach.
A bit of a push back: Why then do not ALL people in the WHOLE WORLD have eternal life? Was Christ’s death sufficient to save them? Now of course, I imagine you will appeal to the notion that they have to choose for themselves, but then if that is the case, salvation is no longer solely upon God’s grace alone, but has become a synergistic cooperative work of God providing the means of salvation and then men being compelled in some way or another to actuate and activate the merits of salvation to complete the work God began on their behalf. That’s not grace and your right back where the Reformation parted ways with Rome.
Valerie, Thankyou for your greeting and encouragement! 😉
I try to be gracious in what I say or write, while remaining true to the Word of God and contending for the faith. I used to be very bombastic and arrogant in younger days, particularly when dealing with those poor second class Christians who had reservations about the ‘Toronto blessing’, or any of the things that I had grown up KNOWING were the work of the Holy Spirit.
GAG! (Loud raspberries and other sounds of ridicule)
I cringe just thinking about what an ignoramus I was!
God has been gracious to me and removed the scales from my eyes.
My Lord has taught me much, but it has cost me great pain, which I will tell you of if you ask, but I don’t want to grandstand here, just try to be a blessing.
Shalom,
Alan.
Burning Lamp
Yes, I know it’s a little bit like preaching to the choir for those such as yourself and Deborah and others, but Fred and a couple who keep saying things about God having to look up some information in the future obviously need singing lessons. I can’t understand how they can say such anthropomorphic things about the great I AM. (Sorry, I’m not showing off, just trying to be economical with my words)
I mean, what do they think, that He goes and gets out His special “Foreknowledge glasses” and then peers off down the corridors of time to determine what will be one day?
If what they say about us not having free will were true, there would never have been a tree for Adam & Eve to eat from and all their descendants (us) would’ve been all honkey dory with God and Jesus wouldn’t have needed to die on Calvary. I mean, all the suffering and all would be absolutely needless and would imply that God was just being sadistic. What a blasphemous concept! Are they quite mad?
(Rhetorical question)
Okay, In my post above there is a hint of where I’m at regarding carefulness regarding the Truth, but I thankyou for the gentle warning. No throwing required at all, I appreciate the care you showed.
However, if it’s not too much off topic, I would like to address a couple of things about your exhortation. I assure you they are written in a very soft voice, if you get my drift. 😉
1st:- I agree Jesus never intended to separate His flock into two herds, but that doesn’t mean that there is no difference whatsoever between Jew and Gentile believers. Before you get out marshmallow missiles, let me clarify. Galations 3:28 Says; “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”.
Lots of people quote this verse to support their contention that there is some kind of inherent danger in calling a Jewish believer a Messianic Jew (or indeed; a Jewish believer). I understand the reason, because Paul has just written the whole letter to speak out against the heresy you allude to. (I have ex friends who have succumbed to that very thing to the point of denying Christ. It broke my heart to hear it.)
If you are talking about our equality as Christians, redeemed people, believers, saints, etc, you are quite right, that’s exactly what this verse means. As far as SALVATION is concerned, we’re all equal.
BUT, it does NOT mean that is now NO difference between Jews and Gentiles just because they are saved. That is plain, because it also talks about male and female in the same verse and I’m sure not going to buy the idea that the differences between males and females ALL disappear when they become Christians, which would be the only consistent way to read it if we are to do away with ALL differences between Jews and Gentiles who believe. Males are still male and females are still female after salvation. At least I hope so! Think what the gay lobby could do with this verse if it weren’t so! (Only half joking here, I’m sure some Campolo-ite will tumble to it eventually).
So, Males stay males, females stay females, Jews stay Jews, Greeks (Gentiles) stay Greeks, but all are saved equally and God is no respecter of any of them. No logical inconsistency there.
Looking at Romans 11:16-24, Paul talks about natural branches (Jews) and wild branches (Gentiles). SOME of the natural branches have been broken off THEIR olive tree and some wild branches have been grafted in (against the usual order of things in grafting too!). Some natural branches will be grafted back in (Jewish Christians today), but they are still called natural branches and we are still called wild branches. We are equal though in that we are all part of the same tree and nourished by the same root.
2nd:- The law has been fulfilled, of course and any who try and bring others back under the bondage of the law are condemned in many places by Paul and the writer of Hebrews (If that wasn’t him too).
You are right that we are free from the bondage of the Law, but if a Jew wishes to refrain from eating pork (for example), he is free to do so as long as he doesn’t claim to be sanctified by so doing.
As soon as he attaches some spiritual significance to it, he is returning to the bondage of the Law and despising the cross, but if he is just exercising his freedom in the Lord, there’s no problem.
Some Gentile Christians try and say that if he refrains from eating pork, he’s sinning and he should eat pork as a mark of his freedom from the Law, but they are in fact bringing him under another Law, one of their own making. Freedom is freedom, bondage is bondage.
3rd:- Some say that Jewish Christians shouldn’t have their sons circumcised for the same reason as above; that is going back under the Law, but that’s not so, because circumcision was and still is a sign of the Abrahamic covenant, which predates and supersedes the Mosaic covenant. This covenant was declared by God to be an everlasting covenant, as were the Davidic, land, and New covenants, while the Mosaic covenant was only a temporary covenant. This is why Paul could and did circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:3, without going against his own teachings against Judaizers.
Lastly, let me say that I have learned through very painful disciplining from the Lord, to test EVERYTHING against His Word. Without exception. Starting with the thoughts and desires of my heart and going on through all preaching, teaching, worship, EVERYTHING. That said, i will say the following about these dear Jewish Chrsitians; They have a concept of the fear of the Lord that I have rarely found anywhere else and at the same time, they have a grasp of the freedom we all have in Christ that is also rare in my experience. Am I prepared to drop my guard then? Absolutely not! (EVERYTHING remember?)
Another thing I enjoy about worshipping there is the music, or more correctly, the songs they sing, which are usually sung in both Hebrew and English and are a VAST improvement over most of the contemptible (sorry) contemporary ‘worship’ songs I have had to endure in recent years.
As my daughters say, they could be addressing a boyfriend or girlfriend, they are so devoid of anything that might identify them as songs sung in praise of the Almighty God, the King of Kings, Jesus Christ the Lord.
They also don’t repeat the same verse over and over and over and over and over and overandoveranoveranver… You get the idea!
WHO? ME? SATIRICAL? NOOOO! NEVER! I wouldn’t do that! Much. 😉
Lastly, but most certainly not least, the preaching there is absolutely Biblically solid teaching from the Word of God. Even better than my regular Church I go to on Sunday (Beit HaMashiach-House of the Messiah- meet on Saturday y’see).
May God richly bless you in Jesus’ name,
Alan.
Dear Brother Alan,
Thank you for your thoughtful and gracious response. I am off on an evangelistic mission in the early a.m. for 10 days and will be away from my computer so I can’t spare the time right now to do justice to your comments. I will respond upon my return after I recoup from the rigors of the field.
However, if I may can I give you a morsel to chew upon here – Sabbath worship. That bothers me about Messianic Fellowships. True some churches have worship services on Saturday night and Sunday and Wednesday and even Thursday. Sabbatarianism is a slippery slope and I don’t find biblical justification for it. Isn’t that reverting to the Law? Just asking. No mrashmellow missles or otherwise coming from here – if I ever come across as harsh or with a know-it-all attitude, I invite correction.
Grace and pease!
Thanks Burning Lamp,
I hear you, although we must be careful with all these things, that we don’t bring people under the bondage of NOT doing things so as to prove that they’re free from bondage. 😉
Paul states quite categorically in Romans 14, that we’re not to judge people according to which day of the week they worship on, or whether they abstain from certain foods. As long as they are not making it a REQUIREMENT for salvation and/or sanctification, there is no Biblical injunction against it.
In Acts 20, when Paul is preaching on the first day of the week, it says that he preached until midnight. (v.7) We tend to forget that Jews reckon the days start as sundown, not sunrise as our reckoning is. So here, we have Paul starting to preach at the beginning of the first day of the week, just after sunset and continuing to preach until midnight. So that would be Saturday night, yes? (lots of ironic grinning here)
So, now where do we begin to lay down the law to these people we think might be Judaizers who are trying to reinstate the Sabbath? May they use the Hebrew; evening and morning= one day? and therefore count sunset Saturday as the beginning of the first day of the week, or are we going to be really pedantic and insist that they must now measure days in the good old anglo saxon way; midnight to midnight? Just to be sure that they’re not trying to subvert our freedom from the Law?
Sorry, I’m trying to be gently sarcastic, which doesn’t really translate well in writing, please don’t take offense at my clumsy attempt at keeping this discussion lighthearted, yet focused on the Truth of God’s Word. (Big smiles)
Paul was almost ruthless in his preaching and teaching against becoming even minutely obliged to keeping any part of the Law. He also stressed our absolute freedom in Christ.
So, as I said before, the clear teaching of scripture is that as long as we don’t make the day a salvation/sanctification issue, which would be ‘works’, there is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1)
Several years ago, when I was still quite deceived in many areas, we sent our two girls to an Adventist school, so as to get a ‘Christian’ education. I have asked and gotten their forgiveness, right after repenting and asking for God’s forgiveness. During those years, I had many very lively discussions with legalistic people in that cult. God taught me to recognize legalism and many ways that people become blind to the particular legalism they have been seduced by. That’s how I came to realise just how far from the Truth these people are.
However, I have had other people tell me that we MUST NOT worship on Saturday, because that is coming under the Law. But “MUST NOT” is also bondage, not freedom, just a different kind.
If we were talking about the blood of Christ, I believe that anyone devaluing it is anathema and we are forbidden by 2 John v.10-11 from even wishing them God’s blessing. When it comes to that, or the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, or the virgin birth, or the Deity of Jesus Christ, or His Lordship, there is clearly no room for any kind of blurring of lines. On the subject of which day we should worship on, or whether we should avoid worshipping on a particular day, the Bible itself gives us the freedom to decide. It does not give us the freedom to mandate anything in relation to days, except to forbid us making it an issue of justification.
Whenever we say that ‘this’, or ‘that’, is the formula for guarding against legalism, we are in the most danger of falling into legalism ourselves, which is why I am inclined to be argumentative about this.
The issue of the Jews, and/or Israel and their relationship to God is one of the most dangerous areas for us, because there are so many deceptions and heretical beliefs that lurk all around this subject, waiting to snare people who are pro-Jews/Israel, as well as those who believe the opposing views, with all the permutations possible in between thrown in to the mix.
It’s a little bit like the discernment ministries out there, we dare not just say; “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” and accept people just on the basis of how much of what they say is good and agrees with what we know and believe.
We have to test everything by the what the Word really says, not what we think it says based on our mindset. It’s when we read God’s Word, we must be humble enough to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us what He wants us to learn, not what will help us win the particular debate we have staked our reputation on. 🙂 🙂 🙂
I relate the following only so you understand how intensely I am committed to seeking and loving the Truth.
I am taking a crash course in humility at this stage in my life, which is crushingly painful, but I praise God for His loving discipline and the Holy Spirit’s guidance and comfort.
My wife of 30 years wants a divorce and is living with another man in the house we shared. She has been deceived by old church friends into thinking that she can maintain a relationship with Jesus and that we can still be friends in-spite of what she is doing. I apparently have a ‘religious spirit’ and I take the Bible too literally. Truth be told, I failed to love her as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, so I accept my responsibility here, while at the same time not agreeing that my wife is without sin. By the grace of God I can say I forgive her and don’t condemn her, but she needs to “go and sin no more”. This is between her and God now. I pray she will come back to the Lord, no matter what else happens. It is in God’s hands.
For me, I will follow the Lord.
For the record, you don’t come across as harsh or know it all, but I will humbly offer correction, in the fear of the Lord, in Jesus’ name and ask that you will do the same for me, as needed.
All God’s love and grace to you. I pray God’s blessing on your mission and that the Holy Spirit will add many to the Church as you preach the Gospel.
Shalom,
Alan.
Fred
>> No this is not std Armenian response.
Just so we are clear, Armenians are a people group over in Turkey and the Black Sea region. Arminians are individuals who follow the theology of Jacob Arminius.
Just so we are clear… John Calvin was still part of the Roman Catholic church. If you are going to insult me like this then just go away ok? great.
As for the rest of your comments. Alan explained it well. Go read what he said. If you can’t grasp who God is at any give time then clearly you have a very narrow view of who GOD IS.
Right, this conversation is over. My view on the the horridness of predestination has been explained.
Alan writes:
I mean, what do they think, that He goes and gets out His special “Foreknowledge glasses” and then peers off down the corridors of time to determine what will be one day?
So Alan, define for me what you mean by “foreknowledge?” This is a biblical concept, correct? While you are at it, how would you define predestination? Another biblical concept.
Deborah writes:
Just so we are clear… John Calvin was still part of the Roman Catholic church. If you are going to insult me like this then just go away ok? great.
I meant no insult at all. Sorry you took it that way. I am just trying to be concise here.
Again, pretend that John Calvin never existed, what do those theological terms mean to you? Predestination, foreknowledge, election? They are present in the text of scripture, you have to grapple with them and the theological implications of what you say you believe about man’s autonomy of will and God’s sovereignty as God; and I am sorry, no one here has really done this. Perhaps you can declare victory if you like, but you’re deceiving yourself.
Fred
Fred
Let’s just leave it that you are Chosen/Elect/Superior and I am a Reprobate. Now that it’s been settled, I can carry on living my life guided by the Holy Spirit as I am a born again Christian saved by Grace.
Fred Butler
Interesting article:
Only a excerp pasted from your Blog: