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John MacArthur – Transformation of Grace Community Church

John MacArthur - Transformation of Grace Community Church

John MacArthurThis information has been painstakingly put together by Bob Johnson over a period of several years.  It’s shocking and I believe it’s the truth. Bob has been attacked by John MacArthur and Phil Johnson who have tried to discredit him, but the facts remain standing strong.

I am going to present this information only because I stand for the truth AT ALL COSTS.  [Edited by DTW: 31 Mar 2010 – I have made a public apology too everyone I told that MacArthur is legitimate.   I am very very sorry for this. I trusted MacArthur and I was deceived and I led others to believe he was ok. Every bit of credibility I gave John MacArthur I retract.  I did not understand the doctrine of Calvinism at the time, now I do.  Please see here for my sincerest apology: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/30/what-do-you-do-when]

Now before anyone gets all carried away, I am not a Calvinist.  I am a born again Christian and my ‘denomination’ is what lies between the pages of the Word of God.  I believe in free will and I believe that repentance of sin is an ongoing essential part of your relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. We are not predestined, or elected by God before the foundation of the world (for biblical predestination understanding please see What it Really Means to be Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated – The Biblical Truth);   I won’t even get onto the topic of John Calvin as that’s another story all on it’s own and Calvinism has it’s roots in Rome.

Are there people who are genuinely saved under GCC – Absolutely, when they find out the truth as to what Calvinism is all about, they will leave there sooner or later.  God knows our hearts.  He knows what we think, He knows what we believe, He knows everything about us.  I believe we are all judged on what we know up to a certain point in time.  (I am NOT talking about sin here, or using this as an excuse to say, “oh I never accepted Jesus, because I didn’t know anything, or no one told me.)  Because the Bible commands you to study to find yourself approved anyhow, so no one has any excuse.  And if you have the Holy Spirit in your life you will never get something so wrong or believe and follow something so wrong as the doctrine of Calvinism and the fruit of John MacArthur speaks for itself.Now when the Holy Spirit reveals to us what’s really going on behind the scenes, this is when we are now faced with a massive decision of “should I stay or should I go” – will you accept the false teachings that are slithering its way in, or will I stand firm on the Word of God and warn others about what is happening and get out because you will not tolerate men insulting Jesus Christ! When the Holy Spirit has warned you, you can’t ever say to Jesus one day, “I didn’t know”, because you did know, but you CHOSE (free will) TO IGNORE IT.  And in doing so you continued to stay and support ungodly doctrines.

Even if John MacArthur carried on preaching what sounded like the greatest gospel from the pulpit (which we know is not because it’s Calvinistic) – he will slowly but surely lead his congregation astray more and more astray as he turns to Rome along with every other denomination in these end times.

Will his preaching start to change?  Will it become a more emergent gospel?  It appears has as he is embracing contemplative spirituality for some time:  John MacArthur and Dallas Willard – Two Contemplating Calvinists

Does John MacArthur have to make a choice like the rest of us to follow Jesus Christ 100% or follow Satan instead? Absolutely.

We ALL sit in the same position. Jesus Christ is LORD, He is our KING, He judges ALL, NO ONE gets an ‘immunity card’ from GOD.

Ok let’s get onto the info shall we…

—————–

The Transformation of John Macarthur’s Grace Community Church

How Change Agents are Transitioning GCC into the New World Order

Introduction  –

by Bob Johnson On January 2, 2005,

John MacArthur gave a sermon to his congregation in which he described the state of his church. In that sermon John MacArthur stated, “I feel like part of the ministry I must discharge before the Lord and you is a ministry of warning about danger. Our church is not in particular danger from some dominating iniquity. It is not in particular danger from some infiltrating heresy. It is not in danger from some loss of resources financially or human. Everything you can see on the surface looks to be good. And we would have every reason to think we stand, and still be on the brink of a fall.”

John MacArthur said that his church was not in particular danger from infiltrating heresy. This paper will show that a dangerous heresy has infiltrated his church; a heresy known generally as the church growth movement. And this paper will show that this movement, being backed by globalists and being used to fulfill their one-world agenda, is now manipulating GCC into that same agenda.

John MacArthur said that his church is not in danger from some dominating iniquity.This paper will show that John MacArthur, being the dominant figure in his church, by disobeying the doctrine of separation, has allowed men to speak at his church and has allowed men to occupy leadership positions in his church, who, professing to be Christians, are actually dedicated to this one-world agenda.

John MacArthur  said that everything you can see on the surface of his church looks to be good. I have been to his church, and I have attended his ministries, and I didn’t have to look beyond the surface to see that everything there is not good. I didn’t have to look beyond the surface of his church in order to see the presence of the Purpose Driven Church (PDC) model or the dialectic sessions employed by that model.

Nor did I have to look beyond the surface to see that John MacArthur’s international ministry, a ministry dedicated to “training church leaders worldwide,” is a church growth organization now partnering with foreign governments.In his “state of the church” sermon, John Macarthur said that GCC could be on the brink of a fall. GCC has gone beyond that brink and has now fallen. GCC is not holy, peculiar, sanctified and set apart, but rather, is a church that has now found common ground with Satanic agents pushing the one-world agenda via the church growth movement.

Allow me, by way of introduction, to say how I became interested in the goings on at GCC. My interest in GCC began in March 2005 when a local pastor invited me to accompany him to the GCC Pastor’s Conference being held that same month. Wanting to get information about the conference, I went to the GCC website where I noticed that Dr. Albert Mohler was to be a keynote speaker. I’d never heard of Dr. Mohler.

When curiosity pressed and an internet search ended, I had discovered information about Dr. Mohler that was not in accord with his Christian profession. I had discovered that Dr. Mohler was a Founding Fellow of the “think tank” of a UN-NGO. I had discovered that a UN-NGO is a non-governmental organization that is listed with the UN and that serves the UN and its one-world agenda. And therefore, I concluded that it must necessarily follow, that Dr. Mohler, being a Founding Fellow of this UN-NGO’s “think tank” which serves the UN and its agenda, must also serve the UN agenda. (It has since been confirmed to me by a colleague of Dr. Mohler’s that all the Fellows of the “think tank” of this UN-NGO are dedicated to the principles of the charter of the UN).

Knowing that the UN agenda is satanic and knowing that this agenda includes the destruction of Biblical Christianity, I wondered why John Macarthur would invite a man dedicated to this agenda into his church and into his pulpit. Was John Macarthur aware of Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation? (I have since learned that Dr. Mohler holds leadership positions in at least two organizations that serve the UN globalist agenda as NGO’s.)

I proceeded to write a letter to each of the members of the GCC elder board. I warned them all of Dr. Mohler’s associations. I received a reply from elder, Phil Johnson, dated March 23, 2005. Regarding Dr. Mohler’s associations, Mr. Johnson wrote, “We may not agree with all his associations, but nothing in Scripture demands that we separate from a true brother in Christ just because we may disagree with him on where he draws the circle of his own fellowship.” Is this a true statement? Is there nothing in Scripture that demands separation from a professed Christian who is affiliated with satanic evil (the UN)? Many verses in Scripture demand that Christians separate from evil and 2 Thess. 3:14 demands separation from professed Christians who are disobedient: “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him that he may be ashamed.” Scripture does demand separation from Dr. Mohler.

Why didn’t the GCC elders seem to be alarmed by Dr. Mohler’s affiliations? Why were they willing to ignore Biblical commands in order to continue a relationship with Dr. Mohler? Being dissatisfied with the reply I’d received from the GCC elder board, I then decided to make phone calls to several other GCC pastors in order to inform them of Dr. Mohler’s UN connection. Surely, they would all be concerned. I told them all that Dr. Mohler was a Fellow of a UN-NGO. What was their response? The pastors all angrily denied this easily verifiable fact. I then decided to write letters to about ten more GCC pastors. I expressed to them my concern that Dr. Mohler was a Fellow of a UN-NGO.

I received a reply from one pastor, Rick Mclean, responding for all, who, putting himself in the position of God, told me that the information I’d given them regarding Dr. Mohler’s associations “was of no eternal consequence.” This pastor also told me to never contact them again regarding this matter. In November 2005, a member of GCC agreed to meet me for a discussion. His name was George. I had asked George during a phone conversation if he’d be willing to have a discussion with me concerning some things at GCC that I had found troubling.

Two days after agreeing to meet with me, I received an email from George informing me that our meeting couldn’t take place. He told me that after checking with his church’s authorities, those authorities had decided not to allow our meeting to take place. George also informed me that only one man at GCC would meet with me. This was the same pastor who had already written to tell me to never contact them again. The email that George sent me was cc’d or copied to this same pastor and George informed me that any future correspondence I might have with him would also be cc’d to this pastor. The GCC authorities were exercising strict control over this situation. If Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation was “of no eternal consequence” according to pastors at GCC, then why were they taking such extraordinary measures in order to prevent the exposure of that affiliation? Why were they willing to go to such lengths in order to keep knowledge of that affiliation hidden from their church membership?

George was not allowed to meet me for a discussion in a local coffee shop. In not allowing one Christian to meet another, the GCC authorities had taken authority not given them in the Word of God. In not allowing one Christian to meet another, the GCC authorities were exercising a type of control that is cult-like. Believing the GCC authority’s behavior to be deceitful, and knowing they didn’t want Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation exposed, I decided to do just that at their March 2006 Pastor’s Conference. With Dr. Mohler again invited to be a keynote speaker, I stood outside their church and handed out flyers to the arriving pastors. The flyer was titled “Al Mohler and the United Nations.”

The flyer basically contained 2 facts: Al Mohler was a Founding Fellow of the Research Institute (think tank) of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) and that the ERLC was a UN-NGO. How did the GCC officials respond to these flyers being handed out on the public sidewalk outside their church? A GCC pastor, Eric Bancroft, with the head of security in tow, approached me and angrily told me that my flyer contained “all lies”; he then warned me that if I was to set foot on GCC property, I’d be arrested.

When I left GCC that evening, some GCC officials followed me and with the head of security present, they photographed my car and wrote down my license plate number. What began as an effort to warn the saints at GCC about Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation didn’t end with my threatened arrest. The GCC authorities had tried to keep Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation hidden from their membership. I couldn’t help but wonder what else they may be hiding. “Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.”

So, I decided to take a closer look into their ministries. GCC has eight subministries listed on their website. Two of these subministries are singles ministries. In looking through these two ministry’s web pages, I began to notice the presence of certain “buzzwords” common to the Purpose Driven Church (PDC) model. I noticed that much of the language used to describe the activities of these ministries was identical to the language used in the PDC model. Being very familiar with both the “buzzwords” and structure of the PDC, I strongly suspected that these two ministries were run on that model. My suspicions were confirmed after I attended both of these ministry’s Friday night “Bible studies.”

It was then that I realized that the church growth movement (CGM)/PDC model had infiltrated GCC in at least their two singles ministries. Knowing that the PDC movement had already spread like wildfire across America’s churches and knowing that once this movement gets a foothold in a church it will spread like cancer throughout the entire church body, I knew that it was my Christian duty to warn the saints at GCC about this real danger within. In the summer of 2006, I wrote a letter intended for the Christian remnant at GCC in which I warned them of this dangerous church growth infiltration.

It was titled “A Wake Up Call to the Saints at Grace Community Church.” While standing on the sidewalk across the street, I handed out copies to the congregants as they left the church. I handed out this letter of warning for three consecutive Sundays. On the second Sunday, as I handed out the “Wake-up Call,” the police were called. A black and white unit stopped and an officer approached me and told me that they had received a call claiming that I was harassing the congregation. I was handing out my letter to Christians as they left the church. I never harassed anyone and no one had complained to me.

Why were the police called? On that same day, in what could be construed as another act of intimidation, a GCC official approached me and told me that the GCC authorities were considering a lawsuit against me. Since handing out this letter of warning, I have continued to look into the activities of various ministries at GCC and I have continued to find activity indicating the presence of the church growth movement. For example, I have seen that a GCC ministry called The Master’s Academy International (TMAI), which states that its mission is to “train church leaders worldwide,” is actually a church growth organization that is now partnering with foreign governments. (A goal of the church growth movement is to merge the church into a partnership with business and government. This is called Communitarianism.)

Later, I will describe both the leadership and the activities of TMAI in detail. Grace Community Church (GCC) [www.gracechurch.org], pastored by John MacArthur is being subverted and transformed by the church growth movement (CGM). This paper will give a description of the CGM, how it manifests itself at GCC, and how it has infiltrated GCC.

Contents
Introduction
Part I
What is the Church Growth Movement?
How the Church Growth Movement Manifests Itself at GCC (The Guild and The Foundry)
Part II
The Master’s Academy International (TMAI) Leadership
TMAI Leader’s Transformational Language
Part III
TMAI Training Centers
TMAI Brazil
TMAI Honduras
TMAI South Africa
TMAI New Zealand
TMAI Mexico
TMAI Russia
TMAI-Philippines
The TMAI Leadership Community
Part IV
The Money Trail—Who Finances TMAI
How the Church Growth Movement Infiltrated GCC
John Macarthur’s Ecumenical Roots

Please continue here: www.johnmacarthurexposed.blogspot.com/

More...

258 comments to John MacArthur – Transformation of Grace Community Church

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bob, you are not associated with D.Fish are you?

  • Burning Lamp

    Deborah, Bob commented on the other thread about DFish and denied any involvement w/him.

    ps–I know about D Fish. He rebuked me because I once addressed members of Grace Church as “Saints” and he assured me that there couldn’t be any true Christians there.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp

    Ah yes, sorry I am losing the plot today… all this info and some other info I am researching has given me one big headache. I am just gonna approve comments for the rest of today and tomorrow, but not reply to anything.

    So to my other ‘Admin’ please approve comments when you get time as well. Thanks!!

  • Burning Lamp

    Hey Deborah,

    You are doing a great job – I don’t see how you do it – it seems a new discernment issue pops up every hour! Thanks for all your hard work – I know you do it for the LORD, but you are appreciated. Thanks for your willingness to be obedient to the LORD at any cost.

  • Jean

    Yep, this is truly very sad. I always pray that John would stay standing in his Gospel-hostile-country and not “fold” to the ways of the worldly church… Sigh…

    Father, I pray that you will have mercy on this man, like you have on me, and open his eyes to this “trap” that Satan is leading him into. AMEN

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jean

    I second that prayer. Again us little sheep need to come in an rescue our pastors by warning them. Elders? Pffff – Board members? Pfff what are they? Brick walls of wickedness put in place to prevent discernment, but increase the church member count?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John MacArthur, I pray that you humble yourself before your Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and ask Jesus to show you where you went wrong and how to fix the problem and urgently. We don’t have time anymore to play games.

    On a very personal note: What do I say to my father about you!!! I gave him your book to read in hope that my father would come to be genuinely saved; he is very confused as to what is real Christianity and what is false Christianity. How do I answer my father (if) and when he reads this article and asks me, “how do you know what’s written in this book is true, if John MacArthur is not even sure where he stands?” Fortunately I know how to answer this question! But there millions of others who do not know how to answer this question and will stand there with a mount full of teeth – bewildered, doubting their own salvation.

    You play with the lives of millions of souls. I pray John that you get your priorities back in order. Jesus first or world first?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Burning Lamp

    I am not sure how I do it either. Physically I am about as fit as a hamster with a broken exercise wheel. Mentally I am as fit as hamster with a turbo charged wheel hooked up to produce enough electricity to power a 100w lightbulb ahhaha. In between the Holy Spirit gives me peace and joy and the strength to carry on and the knowledge of who Jesus is and why I LOVE HIM SO MUCH.

  • Erna

    I got into John MacArthur’s books on Hebrew-thought it to be well writen, until I saw some strange doctrines in it. We really have to be very careful to who we listen or what we read. I came to realise how the Bible is the only authority and I have to read it for myself. The Holy Spirit teaches me.
    Deborah, you are really taking on the world of lies and unbiblical doctrines. Good for you. May the Lord grant you the strenght to keep fighting the good fight.

  • What were the “strange doctrines” Erna?

  • Burning Lamp

    The only books I feel comfortable recommending these days is by one of my very favorite “dead guys”. If they were solid while they were alive, they can’t fall away!

    I have been collecting all of H.A. Ironside’s commentaries. They are now being made available online and a number of them are in paperback for about $3! I read the Word first and then use his commentary as a companion. I truly believe the Lord gifted him as one of the finest expositors of our time – he passed away over 50 years ago but his writings are timeless. I would recommend his books to anyone. He has one about salvation called “Full Assurance”. Some of his messages are online and are public domain. He was premill, and his doctrine was rock solid. Hope this blesses someone.

  • Bob,

    Deborah,

    Thanks very much for posting this about Macarthur. I appreciate your willingness to seek the truth objectively. Please feel free to ask me any questions or to make comments. I’ll reply as best as I can.

    I can tell you that Al Mohler did speak at John Macarthur’s Pastors Conference last week. So Macarthur was probably not pressured too much, if at all, by his congregation (most of whom are spiritually blind) over Mohler signing the Manhattan Declaration. I have an article about the Manhattan Declaration on The Watchman Wakes.
    http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/The-Manhattan-Declaration.html

    I was going to attend Macarthur’s pastor’s conference 4 years ago to ask Mohler questions about his UN connections, but I was told that the questions wouldn’t be allowed because all questions would be pre-screened.

    John Macarthur’s father was involved at the pinnacle of the world’s ecumenical movement and so I guess it shouldn’t be surprising to see that his son has continued to build bridges at the expense of truth and biblical doctrine.

    Bob Johnson

    [Edited: Since posting this article on John MacArthur from Bob’s Johnsons’ research it has come to light that he is affiliated with the website called watch. pair. com who hold onto some very strange beliefs: Nephilim, aliens, Serpent Seed teaching and just enough anti-Semitic vibes to cause the alarm bells to go off loudly. The FACTUAL information that Bob has provided on John MacArthur served it’s purpose, but that is where it ends. I never have and never will associate myself with watch. pair. com. I have also requested Bob remove my website link from his website. Thank you]

  • Thomas Lessing

    I’m no prophet, but some years ago I predicted that Calvinism would join the broad stream called “emergent” or “emerging.” I based my prediction on 2 Thess. 2: 10 and 11: “because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”

    Do Calvinists believe in salvation? Yep, they do but their salvation is based entirely on predestination and election and not faith and repentance on the part of the predestined sinners. They are dead in their trespasses and sins and therefore completely inept to understand the Gospel, according to the Calvinists. They first need to be regenerated as a sovereign act of God (monergism) before they can receive faith as a gift from God. Then alone are they saved. Faith is not a prerequisite or precondition for salvation but the result of the monergistic salvation of God. And of course, predestined salvation is the privilege of the elect only; the poor and wretched reprobates have no hope of ever being saved because they have been predestined for hell even before the foundation of the earth.

    As soon as you begin to tamper with God’s doctrine of salvation, you become a good candidate for the delusion God sends so that you may believe the lie. What are the Calvinists beginning to do? They are starting to believe lies. Yes! they use the very same terminology we find in the Bible: salvation, sanctification, crucifixion, forgiveness of sins, resurrection, ascension, Second Coming of Christ, etc. but the application, especially of salvation and sanctification, is completely at variance with the Word of God.

  • Eddy Carter-Smith

    Remeber we were once “fooled”and the “Spirit of the Lord” brought us direct revelation,this is why we are this side looking in.JmcA has a habit of taking a stand on spritual matters only to have to come back later re-visit his writting and then he apologises and makes the correction – I hope and pray that this will not be an eception.It may take a little time,remember how many got caught up with the “Toronto’blessing,many are repenting now years later,I am none the less grieved in my spirit as i Have believed JmcA to be one of the few great teachers,But Bob u have done the right thing bringing this to our attention ,Debs u 2.I say JMcA will eventually retire from Gcc and some young air head will take over….It happened at our Roodepoort assmbly–Keep up the good work.

  • Eddy Carter-Smith

    Pheww i have Just gone and looked at Bobs detailed writting….OK no more listning to JmcA sermons finished gone buy….!

  • louise

    Thank u for this article. I found it most interesting. I have always found Johns teaching such a blessing and very solid. I can only say, yes we are in the end time.
    Thank you for the time you have spent with this site. I and my hubby enjoy all peoples view points as I am very aware the attack of the body of Christ will come from within.

  • Burning Lamp

    Thomas L. you have hit the nail on the head. The doctrine of Calvinism strikes at the very heart of the Christian faith – one of the “essentials”. You are so right – it opens the door for further delusion. Take Al Mohler, a Calvinist and a Southern Baptist and leading others in that direction. Mark Driscoll is a fountain of mixture of truth and error. He denounced The Shack but he embraces emergents, says it is a sin NOT to drink alcoholic beverages, has a potty mouth, etc. R.C. Sproul is a preterist. These Calvinist types hang with each other despite their differences because the Calvinist belief is the glue that holds them together. Paul Washer who many respect for his strong messages is Calvinist. When you examine the beliefs they fail the biblical standard just as Thomas explains.

    Voddie Bachman and others are leaders in what is called the Family Integration concept of church worship and family governance. This is popular among homeschoolers.It is cult-like in its control aspects. It hooks people who are sick of the decline in the culture and the apostasy in the church and are grasping at straws. It is a trap. Bachman is a staunch Calvinist mixing truth and error. This not to judge the hearts of these men or their motives as only God can do that, but we are called to examine and test by the Scriptures. We should also pray for them to come to their senses. It seems the Calvinism is the root cause.
    Thanks Thomas L. for spelling it out so clearly!

    You will find that many of the ministries to Roman Catholics are led by Calvinists. They are strong on the Reformation – but that zeal, as correct as it is, with another false Gospel. So ironic!

    Calvinists like to use Spurgeon as their poster boy, but one can wonder if he would find much basis for fellowship with those who so admire him.

    MacArthur could be described as a “soft” Calvinist as he tones down his beliefs to reach a broader audience. He has even written that children under the age of accountability will go to heaven. Obviously this is in conflict with Calvinist doctrine. So he is a conflicted and what the Bible calls a double-minded man.

    There is much here to consider and pray about. We must be ever cautious about setting up any human being as an idol/icon because giving them that status stops all testing of the spirits.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    Why are you asking Erna for the “strange doctrines”. You still haven’t figured out yet that meditation and prayer are to different things and it’s been how long now? months??

    Sighs

  • Elmarie A

    People

    We must realize that man will always be fallible. The church is fallible. We must keep this close to our hearts and we can only pray for those who fall or stray. Only God, His Son Jesus , the Holy Spirit and the Word of God ARE INFALLIBLE.

    This does not mean we must now turn our backs on our Christian brothers and sisters whose teachings might have met with misfortune or undue evil influence, we must pray for them if all else fails and keep on praying. We must constantly trust in the Holy Spirit within us when we read any other teaching apart from the Bible the Word of God. The conviction within us will very quickly show us when we are busy with the wrong book in our quest for more information. If we do not have this conviction, unfortunately then we are not being assisted by the Holy Spirit.

    I do believe that John MacArthur is more Biblically sound and accurate in his teachings than most, if not all, of the other false teachers we have been confronted with on these like sites.

    Christianity might be better off ascertaining the names of those other thousands of false preachers who are leading astray millions of lost sheep all over Asia, South America and Africa. These false wolves do so in the Name of our Lord, in obscurity, because they do not have the scrutiny of media watching them.

    Pointing out the really tiny (and usually doctrinal, not pertaining to salvation) mistakes made by preachers like John MacArthur seems to pale into total insignificance when compared to the atrocities being committed by the unnamed thousands of false preachers targeting congregations, far exceeding in number, those of prominent western personalities.

    The billions of dollars being leeched off the seriously spiritually poor and physically needy in these instances is abominable to say the least. Their cause would be well served if we were to direct our energies toward their predicament and their salvation, identifying the forest of logs they have to deal with in their fraudulent “evangelists”, rather than pointing out the splinter in preachers like MacArthur et al.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    The main purpose and only purpose for this article was the hope that John MacArthur sees what is happening around him and that HE IS PLAYING WITH PEOPLES LIVES by doing the things he is doing and associating with the things he is associating with. John is an incredibly smart guy, my little brain can’t comprehend his intelligence. So I am praying so hard that all that intelligence he has is used to sift the good and the bad from his life. The bad include people!! People who have snuck in an influenced him in a negative way.

    John, I live my each day in Jesus’ hands. I have a low paying job, my husband has a low paying job, we have a tiny house, our cars are paid off, we have no debt. We live simple lives but with all the necessities – our Heavenly Father provides for us in ways that I can’t even begin to describe – little miracles is what they are. Stop worry about worldly things, men of influence etc. Start worrying about what Jesus thinks of you and where Jesus Christ wants you to be, not where you think you should be.

    We live IN THIS WORLD, we are NO OF THIS WORLD when we are born again.

    Imagine if you read what I have written now and you took to heart what I had to say? I would not know how to react, shocked I guess. Cos I’m nothing, just a young woman who loved Jesus with all her heart, no theological education. You on the other hand are John MacArthur, the one who helped me when my days were the darkest and my life was worth nothing, you helped by giving me the kick start I needed in understanding Scripture. Now I am hoping I can somehow return the favour and warn you to get out of the snare that’s been laid before you. Fame, money, politics, power, it means nothinggggg. What will matter at the end of the day is when Jesus says, ‘I don’t know you’.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul Washer

    Hmmmm…..something not right there. He has some very strong messages that are very emotional. But but but….
    1) They all believe in amillenialism (Emailed their ministry 2 years ago and was told 98% of ministry believes in amil)
    2) Strong hold onto St Augustine teachings
    3) They are very much into the other desert fathers as well
    5) TULIP is in there…

    I think what will appeal to the Paul Washers of this world and the Emergent camp is the missional style of ‘go out in the trenches’ and face the danger head on. Paul’s messages are ‘you have no idea what’s going on out there until you go and experience it for yourself’. I am sure some Emergent said something similar the other day too…. was it Angelina Joelie? Anyhow….

    And as ironic as it is, Calvinism (the softer version of it) IS the best version of the gospel we have left that has not been torn to shreds as yet….yet….echoooo….yet…..ok, it’s messed up, sorry, it’s a goner….KABBLEWIIIEEE

    Now we have the NEW Calvinist. He is Conservative but brave enough to break outta his box and experience something deeper.

    I once told Thomas/Sarel that the gospel is shattered all over the place, fragments here and fragments there (within genuine Christian denominations that is). It’s about going and collecting all the valuable GOOD NEWS and putting it back into it’s rightful place.

  • Burning Lamp

    El Marie,

    Please read Thomas L.’s post again. Calvinism goes against the essentials of the faith. It says that Jesus did not die for everyone and that God chooses some to go to hell and some to go to heaven and man has nothing to do with it. That is for starters. This is such an insidious doctrine and just because it appears more “biblical” than other more flagrant and flamboyant teachers, that makes it all the more dangerous. Many a faith have been shipwrecked due to this doctrine. John MacArthur plays the moral and the discernment card but he stops short of separation such as when he wrote “Fools Gold”. His biblical teachings serve as a cloak for the less obvious. And now Bob has unearthed some behind the scenes stuff that is disturbing. One error leads to another.

  • Elmarie A

    Burning Lamp

    >>This is such an insidious doctrine and just because it appears more “biblical” than other more flagrant and flamboyant teachers, that makes it all the more dangerous< < This article was not posted to pull the doctrines of Calvinism and Arminianism apart. Deborah clearly states her reason for posting this info. >>I am putting this info up because I want YOU to make a decision as to what is going on here. And I want Bob to come and discuss with us in the open his findings. This is not going to be a ‘lynch Bob session’ or ’lynch GCC session’ either This is going to be a find the truth discussion, based on FACTS – not just for me, but for everyone. << You are Lynching here Burning Lamp. My doctrine is the Word of God the Bible. I'm very aware of the dangers of the Man written doctrines. Is it not part of the plan God has for us, by testing our faith. I believe the man written doctrines was just to control man by man. There is no sound doctrine ever written by man and I repeat the Bible is my only doctrine I need. Matthew 15:6-14 (Amplified Bible) 6So for the sake of your tradition (the rules handed down by your forefathers), you have set aside the Word of God [depriving it of force and authority and making it of no effect].7You pretenders (hypocrites)! Admirably and truly did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said:8These people draw near Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far away from Me.9Uselessly do they worship Me, for they teach as doctrines the commands of men.(B)10And Jesus called the people to Him and said to them, Listen and grasp and comprehend this:11It is not what goes into the mouth of a man that makes him unclean and defiled, but what comes out of the mouth; this makes a man unclean and defiles [him].12Then the disciples came and said to Him, Do You know that the Pharisees were displeased and offended and indignant when they heard this saying? 13He answered, Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be torn up by the roots.(C) 14Let them alone and disregard them; they are blind guides and teachers. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a ditch. Mark 7:5-7 (Amplified Bible) 5And the Pharisees and scribes kept asking [Jesus], Why do Your disciples not order their way of living according to the tradition handed down by the forefathers [to be observed], but eat with hands unwashed and ceremonially not purified? 6But He said to them, Excellently and truly [[e]so that there will be no room for blame] did Isaiah prophesy of you, the pretenders and hypocrites, as it stands written: These people [constantly] honor Me with their lips, but their hearts hold off and are far distant from Me.7In vain (fruitlessly and without profit) do they worship Me, ordering and teaching [to be obeyed] as doctrines the commandments and precepts of men.(A) Burning Lamp you are missing my point I made read again please and try and understand what I am saying. There is no point in closing in on John MacArthur like a pack and pulling him apart. You seem to be wanting to be the pack leader here. It seems clearly to me this is what you, yourself are doing here. I do not want to discuss doctrines with you as it is not the point or the meaning of this info post. Please respect Deborah DTW here. It is obviously not the place to discuss doctrines here.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Deborah, I hope to quote to your readers some of the things John MacArthur has said in the past and to give them an opportunity to respond by evaluating everything he said in the light of God’s Word. Please let me know whether you approve.

    Let’s start with the following quote from his book “The Gospel According to Jesus (Academie Books, Zondervan Publishing House, 1988, p.98)

    “Those whose faith is genuine will prove their salvation is secure by persevering to the end in the way of righteousness.”

    TRUE OR FALSE?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Go for it Thomas, you don’t need permission from me. You already have all the permissions you need ;)

  • Pieter

    This is very confusing…..
    See about two weeks ago I ordered a Macarthur Study Bible (which I am still waiting for). And I prayed hard and long before ordering it…done countless searches, was even directed by comments from this site that its a good tool for “baby” new-born Christians like myself.
    Should I now chuck it into the nearest dustbin? Please note I am not criticizing, I am asking. See I know there is false prophets out there. But why would I be lead to John’s teaching in the first place? I truly thought from what I read, prayed about that one can listen to his teachings, not follow him for salvation of course but that one can at least have one solid teacher. Does this mean that there is no one left? That absolutely everyone out there is sinister?
    See my question/problem statement is not in defense of John MacArthur, but out of concern that I am not the only “baby” Christian ou there. I know and believe with my whole heart that Jesus is my savior, and that the Holy Spirit is the gentle whisper in my ear and that the Spirit would lead me to all truths. BUT there is no way that I understand everything. Why after praying so hard for some truthful guide to help me , would the Spirit then lead me to a Macarthur study bible, just to be lead away again? I don’t understand and has been on my knees since I read this article. Why would there even be teachers if absolutely everyone out there is false?
    I know I don’t understand the bigger picture, but by reading the article are we now to discard teachings of people purely because some-one is keeping company with some-one working in the UN? (Please note again this is not criticism but a rhetoric question).
    Sorry for the babble, but as stated in my first sentence this is all so confusing. ….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie / Burning Lamp

    Actually this is very well the place to break down Calvinism into what it really is and where it’s foundations stem from because this is the problem and this is what is also going to lead people astray right now in these time we live in – the Calvinist foot in Rome will lead staunch Calvinists onto an ecumenical trail.

    As for Arminianism – I think they too have missed the plot slightly.

    But yes, we are not here to rip Calvinism apart to the point that people who read here think the entire doctrine is wrong, because it’s not. But there is a warning that times are a changing and that Calvinism is not going to remain biblical. In Rev. God calls us to come out of HER (Rome).

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    No Pieter, No. The commentary is great and will help you to understand a lot more than you do right now.

    All this article is about; is John MacArthur going down the wrong road?

    Great men can be deceived. It does not mean what he has written until said time is unbiblical. No. His writings are excellent, but you are to always test never the less. In most instances calvanism is like 98% truth with 2 Tulip errors LOL.

    Having said that, let the Holy Spirit guide you when reading the Word of God. Then read the commentary and the Holy Spirit will confirm if what is said is the TRUTH or not :) The Bible and the Holy Spirit as your interpreter is No.1 not John MacAuthur.

  • Pieter

    thx Debs!

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you. I have made my point about all these doctrines and how I feel about it.

    >>The Bible and the Holy Spirit as your interpreter is No.1 not John MacAuthur.<>But yes, we are not here to rip Calvinism apart to the point that people who read here think the entire doctrine is wrong, because it’s not. But there is a warning that times are a changing and that Calvinism is not going to remain biblical. In Rev. God calls us to come out of HER (Rome).<<

    I second that.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Hi Pieter,

    Your namesake, Peter the apostle, was often led astray – not by the Holy Spirit but by his own Jewish tradition. In the same way Calvinism has become the traditional way of doing and thinking in the reformed churches and most people find it very difficult to discern its doctrinal errors. You may ask: Why didn’t the Holy Spirit warn me when I prayed to Him about the MacArthur Study Bible?

    We Christians often expect the Holy Spirit to warn us in some kind of miraculous way while He very often uses the least in the body of Christ to sound a word of warning (1 Corinthians 12:20-25). If I were you I wouldn’t be too concerned about the study Bible. Read it prayerfully with a discerning mind and always test it against the Word of God. In that way you may learn more about the errors in Calvinism.

    Thomas

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    “Those whose faith is genuine will prove their salvation is secure by persevering to the end in the way of righteousness.”

    TRUE OR FALSE?

    FALSE

    Where is the Holy Spirit in this salvation of John MacArthur? The Holy Spirit is the one who guides us, leads us to righteosness, leads us into all truth and all rememberance as to who Jesus Christ IS.

  • Pieter

    Thx Thomas and Debs, both of your explinations brought peace to me on this issue.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pieter

    Great stuff. It’s tough and tiring having to be on guard 24/7. And it aint gonna get easier. But what is wonderful is when you hear the Holy Spirits voice loud and clear and He gives you the correct interpretation and you just know right there and then that it’s correct. YAY!!

  • Grant C

    Burning Lamp

    You are missing the entire point of Elmarie’s posting regarding this issue. We should be in agreement that discerning between the nitty gritties of whether Calvinism is appropriate to our faith or not, or whether the heresies of Arminius are closer to scripture, or trying to split the heavy log of specific doctrines, formulate and force opinion of some kind of perfect belief system among ourselves is pathetic. These doctrinal beliefs are irrelevant to salvation and granting undue attention to such is contra-scriptural.

    It is pathetic attempting to justify the fact that most of us spend unwarranted time on these petty issues. Precious time should be applied in discerning the seriously wayward teachers and religions which, by their inherent nature, doom millions of people. Such people as whom have never even read a Bible or heard anything resembling the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By keeping us thus occupied, Satan is again being ultra-successful in keeping Christians occupied with unimportant theological doctrine and minor mistakes. Our attempts herein, displaying varying degrees of theological intellect, while the plight of the majority of humanity are doomed to the eternal lake is neglected by our misdirected efforts. We feel safer and of great value to the Body, being more concerned with petty issues closer to home. These issues which are the Will of God, anyway! We cannot change the times, because certainly you will agree that times, at least were predetermined, but we can help take the Truth to those who need it.

    Of course there is a need for discernment in instances where the powerful gift, such as given to precious Deborah, is greatly valued. She does an awesome job in pointing out mistakes and then backing her discernment up scripturally. Praise the Lord for these things. In addition, though, I am firmly convinced that we, as readers and contributors, should at least attempt to discern the totally lost, the completely undiscerning and those who are not with the guidance of Holy Spirit. Among many others, John MacArthur, you and I, certainly do not fall into this unfortunate group.

    Let us thank the Almighty for all the wonderful things He has enabled people like MacArthur to do for His people. It is good to see his mistakes and make them public if needs be, but at the same time let us protect all that which is good, in mostly, solid teachers. What we are failing to do is balance the little mistakes of Christians with the glaring mistakes of the obviously evil who we do not seek out.

    The New Age boys and girls, the exploits of which so many are well documented on this blog, are media driven and their public utterances are shamelessly obvious for all and sunder. Ditto all the other false preachers, prophets, pseudo-Christians, cults etc which come to our attention. The false miracle workers, preachers, prophets, occultists etc, the works of whom are not easily identified due to the obscurity of their operations, should receive our attention and command our time consuming efforts.

    I find it inconsistent with our calling to spend even minutes, hours or days scrutinizing the MacArthurs of this world, when we should be seeking out the not so glaringly obvious. Or is it that we are a little scared to take on true evil when we know it will seriously bite us back.

    Let us rely more fully on the guidance of the Holy Spirit in each of us in these matters and trust more fully on God to correct true believers. You correctly state that one mistake can lead to another, but let God do His work, He is surely powerful enough for this. Let us not put shots across the bow at our comrades in Christ. Let us use our Swords and Helmets and Full Armour to the best of our ability to take on the real enemy. Those of us who believe we have those powerful tools should know that we are fully protected from the little cups of coffee and confetti which can be thrown at us by the little men in the “church”. Will our skill in using them be good enough, however, if we take on the real enemy? Let some of us focus on trying that. Let some of us even try finding the real enemy first!

    1 Timothy 1: 8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

    and 2 Timothy 1: 7For God did not give us a spirit of timidity (of cowardice, of craven and cringing and fawning fear), but [He has given us a spirit] of power and of love and of calm and well-balanced mind and discipline and self-control

    also 2 Timothy 2: 23But refuse (shut your mind against, have nothing to do with) trifling (ill-informed, unedifying, stupid) controversies over ignorant questionings, for you know that they foster strife and breed quarrels.

    I love you all dearly.

  • Thomas Lessing

    “Those whose faith is genuine will prove their salvation is secure by persevering to the end in the way of righteousness.”

    TRUE OR FALSE?

    If we were able to prove that our salvation is SECURE by persevering in die way of righteousness, we wouldn’t have had any need of a Saviour. To what degree do we need to persevere in the way of righteousness in order to prove our salvation is SECURE – 50% – 59% – 60% – 89% – 99.99% or 100%? If you are able to secure your salvation to the degree of 99.99% you have already fallen short and if you are capable of doing it 100% . . . well then you can tell Jesus you don’t need Him.

    What does Scripture teach us?
    Philippians 1:3-6
    3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
    4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
    5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
    6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    The word “epiteleo” (perform) means to bring to perfection that which the Master has begun to do in your life. He will bring it to perfection – not you. There is however something we need to do and that is to remain grounded IN Him (in his death and resurrection) in the VERY same way that He abides in us (John 15:4). HoW does He abide in us? Well, He promised that He would never forsake or leave us (Matthew 28:20).

    Do I hear a few Hallelujahs???

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thomas

    Hallelujah!!!!!!!! YAYAYAYAY! Isn’t the gospel of Jesus so simple to understand :)

    Now even though John MacArthurs quote is wrong, that in itself actually and like totally contradicts predestination.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BOB

    Just a quick question: Do you follow the Book of Enoch?

  • Thomas Lessing

    Grant says:

    “It is pathetic attempting to justify the fact that most of us spend unwarranted time on these petty issues. Precious time should be applied in discerning the seriously wayward teachers and religions which, by their inherent nature, doom millions of people. Such people as whom have never even read a Bible or heard anything resembling the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By keeping us thus occupied, Satan is again being ultra-successful in keeping Christians occupied with unimportant theological doctrine and minor mistakes. Our attempts herein, displaying varying degrees of theological intellect, while the plight of the majority of humanity are doomed to the eternal lake is neglected by our misdirected efforts. We feel safer and of great value to the Body, being more concerned with petty issues closer to home. These issues which are the Will of God, anyway! We cannot change the times, because certainly you will agree that times, at least were predetermined, but we can help take the Truth to those who need it. . .

    The New Age boys and girls, the exploits of which so many are well documented on this blog, are media driven and their public utterances are shamelessly obvious for all and sunder. Ditto all the other false preachers, prophets, pseudo-Christians, cults etc which come to our attention. The false miracle workers, preachers, prophets, occultists etc, the works of whom are not easily identified due to the obscurity of their operations, should receive our attention and command our time consuming efforts. . .

    I find it inconsistent with our calling to spend even minutes, hours or days scrutinizing the MacArthurs of this world, when we should be seeking out the not so glaringly obvious. Or is it that we are a little scared to take on true evil when we know it will seriously bite us back”

    Those who need the truth are often “Christians” who have been led astray for many years without ever having been aware that they are being led astray. I contend that there is more hope for someone who has never heard the Gospel to be saved than a person who thinks he is saved just because he believes he is one of the elect. What is the most horrendous thing that can happen to a person – to be led astray, full stop, or to be led astray and lead others astray as well? What did Jesus say? Well, let’s see now – Mark 9:42. In the sea? Why in the sea, Jesus? Because the sins of all those who have found forgiveness through His grace are cast into the depths of the sea, and the false teachers who lead others astray belong there as well.(Micah 7:19).

    Paul never molly-coddled the false teachers and apostles and neither did he set his vizier on the New Agers of his time. He never beat around the bush and openly judged their “petty issues.” (Galatians 1:8). Would you say that the following “wisdom” is from above or from below?

    “JOHN MACARTHUR: Well, the doctrine of election simply means that God, uninfluenced and before creation, predetermined certain people to be saved.”

    (Apparently one needs to be a member of GCC in order to be liable for a predestined election)

    Calvin’s doctrine of salvation for certain people is based entirely on the assumption that man has no free will, that he is as dead as a doornail and therefore unable to respond in faith to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the result being that only the elect need to be resurrected unto salvation. What utter, utter nonsense. This is in direct conflict with what the Holy Spirit teaches in Revelation 22: 17, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” Wow! did you hear that? “And whosoever will . . .” Ah! but in the Calvinists’ dictionary of words the word “whosoever” has a completely different meaning than the one we poor reprobates know.

    I have debated many Calvinists on the internet for many, many years and never has a single one of them ever given me a satisfactory explanation of the meaning of Revelation 22:17. Why? because they stubbornly refuse to believe that man has a free will and can either take the living water by faith or reject it. Do you really think the Holy Spirit would extend such a profound invitation to “whosoever” if He knew that He was going to regenerate only a few chosen elect from fallen mankind in any case? Calvinism is really a dumb doctrine.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Deborah, please fix my blockquotes. How do you do it?

    [EDITED: To make blockquotes: < blockquote> writing in quotes < /blockquote> I fixed your other one]
    make sure there are no spaces in the code. I used spaces so the code would show up as text

  • Grant C

    I had a really long song written down here, questioning the current train of thought, not that I have ever been an avid supporter of MacArthur, though. Was about to hit the submit comment button, but then decided it was exactly contrary to what I spoke about in my earlier posting today. I must refrain from expanding on the issue, even though I cannot agree with or understand the confusion created by Thomas’ take on the piece under discussion. The piece certainly does not lend itself to the question of “how righteous” we should try to be. The security is in Jesus Christ and will persevere, surely until the end. If it were not so, then the contrary question is how much did the death and resurrection of Jesus contribute to our salvation at the end, 50%, 60%, 83% and so on. Believing this indicates that one crucifixion of Jesus was insufficient and that, even though we try our bestest, we are never sure of our salvation. It is then simply left to chance, works and the luck of the draw as such.

    More love to all.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Hi Deborah

    I posted two comments which just went missing. Any idea what happened?

    DTW: I think I was messin with em hehe

  • Burning Lamp

    Grant, grace and peace to you brother, but you misunderstand my point. Deborah gave Thomas L. permission to “go there” on this thread. Here is a partial quote from his first post:

    I’m no prophet, but some years ago I predicted that Calvinism would join the broad stream called “emergent” or “emerging.” I based my prediction on 2 Thess. 2: 10 and 11: “because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”

    “Do Calvinists believe in salvation? Yep, they do but their salvation is based entirely on predestination and election and not faith and repentance on the part of the predestined sinners”
    (End of quote.)

    This is not a Calvinism vs Armenian debate. Neither extreme is correct. The fact that MacArthur is astray in his Calvinism is directly linked to the other errors. This is the case with any error that is entertained. It leads to other error. You know, the leaven and the loaf. And if we are to believe Bob’s research and experience there appears to be a circle of the wagons mentality.

    So, dear brother, methinks you are the one who misunderstands. I say this respectfully and humbly and with conviction.

    The false teaching of Calvinism is germane to the discussion here. This is absolutely not a lynching of MacArthur as I have been accused of doing. I have always shied away from him despite the fact he has many sound teachings. I have never adhered to the “chew the meat and spit out the bones” mentality. To quote the great Bible expositor, H.A. Ironside, “Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died.”

  • Burning Lamp

    P.S. Grant and Elmarie, exposing error is not about attacking an individual. Only God has the right to judge any person’s heart and motives. That will all be revealed in due time for all of us. That behooves us all to examine our own motives and hearts.
    The bottom line is defending God’s truth. That is for the benefit of the Body we call the Church. It is also for the benefit of the one who has fallen into error. The motive for doing so should always be love – love for the Lord and love for his truth and love for the precious sheeple of His flock. AND only wanting the one deceived to come out of that and be restored. There are many wolves ravaging the sheep and so few who are issuing warnings with the right motivation. Those who do so with the right motivation are often falsely accused and even hated. So has been the historical record of the Church. But those like Deborah press on at all costs because it is the Divine calling.

  • Thomas Lessing

    “The New age boys . . . seriously bite us back” must be in blockquotes together with the previous.

    Thanks

    [EDITED: done]

  • Grant C

    Thomas

    Calvin’s doctrine of salvation for certain people is based entirely on the assumption that man has no free will, that he is as dead as a doornail and therefore unable to respond in faith to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the result being that only the elect need to be resurrected unto salvation. What utter, utter nonsense. This is in direct conflict with what the Holy Spirit teaches in Revelation 22: 17, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” Wow! did you hear that? “And whosoever will . . .” Ah! but in the Calvinists’ dictionary of words the word “whosoever” has a completely different meaning than the one we poor reprobates know.

    I have debated many Calvinists on the internet for many, many years and never has a single one of them ever given me a satisfactory explanation of the meaning of Revelation 22:17. Why? because they stubbornly refuse to believe that man has a free will and can either take the living water by faith or reject it. Do you really think the Holy Spirit would extend such a profound invitation to “whosoever” if He knew that He was going to regenerate only a few chosen elect from fallen mankind in any case? Calvinism is really a dumb doctrine.

    This is exactly what I was referring to: a long-winded attack on theological doctrine, which has little relevance to salvation, but certainly saps away at valuable energy and time. I repeat 2 Timothy 2:23. All the while Satan’s grin gets wider and wider because of the foolish futility thereof. While accepting the free will of man, we must make every effort to ensure that we do not underestimate the will of God and overestimate the range of that free will given to man.

    Awhile ago we spent fellowship time with a community of farmworkers and illegal immigrants at a small informal church in a barn in the bush. On the weekend past, a friend was invited to give his testimony at a church in the industrial black township of Garangkuwa. The combined income of the 80, or so, worshippers present at both meetings together, was probably less than my very moderate income.

    Their hunger and thirst for the Word and simplicity of faith was a reminder of where we should be. Not to mention their hugely surprising knowledge of scripture. Among them were those who are illiterate, and so close to our Lord. Simple faith as I rarely see in our city churches. They would certainly not have any idea of doctrinal differences, and could not afford to spend two minutes debating the pettiness thereof. They are fortunate representatives of many millions of lost family members, such as of whom I wrote in my previous posting.

    How can they be in a better place when they have nothing, literally, and are being targeted by all evil religions relentlessly. Their local religions and our exotic religions (wrongly presented to them) included. Please let us not be silly about our faith and our calling. Let us not be under any delusions regarding our tasks, even though we are humanly prone to boasting and pride. We are so fortunate to be known by God, but we forget the reality and fragility of ourselves. God will not let any of His children fall completely, this I assure you. He might just get a little annoyed when we spend His precious time engrossed in futile attempts at correcting the almost correct. Which none of us are; and others are lost due to our misdirected efforts and incorrect application of that which is temporarily ours. Have greater faith.

    More love to all.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp

    You hit the nail on the head

    >> The fact that MacArthur is astray in his Calvinism is directly linked to the other errors. This is the case with any error that is entertained. It leads to other error. You know, the leaven and the loaf. And if we are to believe Bob’s research and experience there appears to be a circle of the wagons mentality.

    The foundation has to be 100% rock solid otherwise it’s going to crack, and in the cracks things start to creep in… and these things are not God glorifying things. We don’t start looking at the problem after all these years and then wonder where it all went wrong. No we go to the very first starting point, the bottom line, the crux of the matter of Calvinistic doctrine and we look there…and this is where we find the problem that has led GCC to where it is today.

    It’s tis be a sad state of affairs I tell ya.

  • Thomas Lessing

    This is exactly what I was referring to: a long-winded attack on theological doctrine, which has little relevance to salvation, but certainly saps away at valuable energy and time.

    You seem to think that biblical salvation is not a doctrine and that election is not a salvivic doctrine opposed to that of the biblical doctrine of salvation. I can assure you that the doctrine of election/predestination has everything to do with salvation, but it is a false salvation.

    Our calling is to preach the unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ (not of Calvin or anyone else) so that lost souls may be saved and also to contend for the faith that was once delivered to us by the apostles. Anything short of this is downright disobedience to Jesus Christ.

    Ok Grant, what is the will of God which you seem to think I am undermining? Could you give it to us in one sentence?

    PS. Revelation 22:17 has little relevance to salvation? Come on!

  • Deborah,

    I don’t follow the Book of Enoch.

    On my website I post an interview Macarthur gives in which he states that he can’t recall his conversion to Christ and that “it doesn’t bother him.”
    http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/John-Macarthur-Phil-Johnson-non-conversion-statement.html

    Why would this man not be bothered by having no recollection of the day he was converted to Christ? Possibly because of Calvinism. If he has been predestined and elected, then why would he care if he can’t recall his conversion?

  • Bloomie

    Hello Debra,

    I have cried soo many tears….that I often feel like I am going to drown in it’s flow. Recently, it appears to be a shift in just ordinary Bible believing christians,who read their Bibles and believes what it says with the illumination of the Holy Ghost.In its place there are spoon fed christians who could only be this off course with the help of a theologian.

    In 2006 I got radically saved. I began reading my Bible night and day , it was a hunger for the word that was insatiable , and the word of GOD transformed my life and is alive and active in me to this day.

    Imagine, as a new christian being invited to participate in a Bible study at a church and feeling like; I would have to be in a back slidden state to have proper fellowship with the group. The Bible study was filled with error without any discernment…When I mentioned it privately to the facilitator, she thought it best to “concentrate on the positives”

    I am currently not a member of a Church and have visited several…This is usuallly when I cry the most…Almost, all of the people I know attend church and are professing christians, it’s only in speaking with them that you realize they have a secular world view, dont believe parts of the Bible and a variety of other un-biblical views

    Recently, when I was asked by a new friend to attend her church I asked her if her Church “taught from the Bible”…she actually paused for a while, and responded, NO, but the fellowship with the other christian women was what she needed. YES, I began to cry.(not to her face)

    Currently,I study the Bible and watch christian television…However, the more I study the word many of these preachers are now in my red or yellow zone and yes when it’s first discovered ,I usually cry. I have been praying and asking God to help me to continue to discern the truth. Many of my friends have told me that I have helped them to begin reading their Bibles again. My problem is ;I would like to attend a Church ,but have not found a solid one yet…

    Last week I had two of my Christians friends over for brunch. I had not seen them for three years. During our conversation we talked about Church. They both invited me to attend their church….but subsequently, as the conversation continued as they were about to leave they said something that had the fragrance of TULIP… UNTIL several months ago I didn’t really know that term or anyone who believed that. But by mistake, I ordered a CD that I thought was about Replacement Theology but instead its about Reformed Theology. I don’t think this was a coincident. I mentioned this to my friends and we are planning to listen to the CD togather when it’s returned to me from another friend,which is another interesting story in itself.

    The fact that I ordered this CD by mistake was no mistake at all. Needless to say , I have been crying since my friends invited me to church.

    Debra, could you recommend any Leaven Free ministries or study materials.I often feel like i’m in the minority because I have developed a Biblical world view about everything. I trust the indwelling Holy Spirit and it’s awesome. Continue the great work.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bob

    Thanks for the reply.

    Yes I saw that and that stood out for me as something very very odd.

    I remember the day and the date and the time I accepted Jesus into my life, and turning blue and a bit purple in a swimming pool being baptised in the middle of winter. I came out with an intense knowledge that my sins were forgiven, I was spotless and white. It was the best day of my life. Now everyday is the best day of my life that I have grown in my relationship with Jesus Christ through ongoing repentance of sin, because I am a sinner and always will be, but I am washed in the blood of the Lamb. But by the grace of God I am saved.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Grant

    >> You seem to think that biblical salvation is not a doctrine and that election is not a salvivic doctrine opposed to that of the biblical doctrine of salvation. I can assure you that the doctrine of election/predestination has everything to do with salvation, but it is a false salvation.

    This is very very true. If someone is convinced they have been ‘chosen’ by God to be saved, then there is no need to adhere to the Word of God and keep His commandments. It also places people into bondage. How will you ever know if God has chosen you, or if you are just forever doomed to be lost. Will one have to “…prove their salvation is secure by persevering to the end in the way of righteousness.”

    Matthew 11:30: Jesus says “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

    1 John 5:3: “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.”

    Matthew 23:4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.”

    Any doctrine that places bondage over a person is not biblical.

    And again, if certain people are chosen, then there is no need to preach the Gospel as those chosen will automatically be saved from the beginning. The entire point of preaching the Gospel of Salvation to everyone is that they may hear and make a choice as to who they will follow.

    It’s not that God chose people to be saved before they were born, it’s that God knows every one of our futures, as we have chosen who we will follow – through our own free will.

    This is why the bible commands that the gospel be preached as we do not know who will come to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. God knows the heart of each man from the beginning of time. And this is not fate or destiny either. This is about each individual person wilfully remaining sinful by disobeying God or following God by obeying Him.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bob

    I have read many of his books and they are great! BUT, there have seen a few things in there regarding a few topics that have left me wondering. I still say that people who need a good start on studying the Bible that John MacArthur’s study bible is good and some of this books like, ‘why believe the bible’ are very good.

    But we ALWAYS rely on the Holy Spirit our No.1 discerner to sift truth from error. And in doing so we will be left pondering about many things written by pretty much every man who has written a book on Christianity.

    Oh how I sometimes wish we had men today like Apostles to really rebuke and put men in their places. I think people would get the shock of their lives if they knew how stern the Apostles were and how Paul called a spade a spade. BUT fortunately there are no real apostles and prophets today as the Word of God is witness to who Jesus Christ is and everything we need to know, and ever commandment of God is laid out before us in writing and He gave us His Spirit to interpret the wonderful-ness of His word.

    Wonderfulness, is that a word? lol. Ah my spell check says so. Now if only there was a Biblical literacy program.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Hi Bloomie.

    Debra, could you recommend any Leaven Free ministries or study materials.

    A good place to start on the internet is http://www.thebereancall.org and http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com

  • Bloomie,

    Can I make a suggestion? Read Matthew Henry’s commentaries. You can but it in many bookstores.

  • Deborah,

    I’m glad you said that you are a sinner and always will be because so am I. What also bothers me greatly about Macarthur is that he teaches that a Christian has no sin nature–that a Christian only has a Christ nature. I don’t see how any Christian wouldn’t be acutely aware of his sin nature. And I don’t know how a Christian could ever say that he doesn’t have a sin nature.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bloomie

    Gosh, I feel your pain :( And I can’t answer your question. To be honest there is no where to go really.

    I was speaking to someone this morning about the marvelous invention of the internet and that as much as it was placed to ‘connect’ the world for a one world purpose, it is being the best tool ever for the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit you will find the best resources available to you in growing and learning the gospel truth.

    But yes, Thomas has given some great links and that is a good place to start and you can follow the trail. Let us Reason Ministries http://www.letusreason.com is great as well.

    Having said allllll that, you are to still test using the Word of God and rely solely on the Holy Spirit for guidance. No person is safe from being deceived. Even I have my moments where I get caught for a bit, but the Holy Spirits warning is strong and if I don’t listen to Him I find myself in trouble, and I end up saying sorry to Jesus rather profusely for disobeying Him – and then…..I am forgiven, and so is everyone else who repents of sin.

  • I agree Deborah. I think it’s 1 John that says we have no need of a human teacher. The problem today is that Christians are afraid to tell the truth because they care about what others think and feel about them. The only sin in the churches today seems to be social sin. They fear man more than God. And they all ask, “What about me?” They haven’t counted the cost. The cost to speak truth boldly is too high and so they self-edit and they surveille any situation they are in to assess how much truth can be told without getting themselves in trouble.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bob

    >> …. how much truth can be told without getting themselves in trouble.

    Gosh, that says it all. That’s exactly what I have been thinking but have not managed to put into such a simple sentence as that.

  • Hi Bob,

    “I think it’s 1 John that says we have no need of a human teacher.” What about Ephesians 4? The local church is more than just teachers (although it is that too isn’t it?).

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark Penrith

    It’s both, but who do you follow first? Men or Jesus Christ? Just as there have been many great teachers of the Gospel throughout the centuries the Holy Spirit is the ONE WHO DIRECTED THEM INTO TRUTH.

    Have you figured out yet that meditation and prayer are not the same thing yet? Huh? Huh? (I say that with love.)

    I realised I gotta start adding the words love to all my comments before anyone takes me seriously lol.

    Love, blessings, peace, hugs, grace to you and all that stuff.

  • Bloomie

    Thanks, Bob and Debra,

    The websites you both recommended are among my favorites…I listen to teaching material from the Berean Call daily.I will check on the Matthew Henry commentaries.

    Now, If only I could find a Church. I know there is one out there. The major criteria for the church I would like to attend is one where the Bible is still taught, with sound doctrine. The last one I attended several months ago was a Mega Church,where little children as young as 3-4 were taking the Lords supper, and all of their women’s Bible studies is by the a Bible teacher who thinks Brennan Manning is a gift. The Church is beginning to form small cell groups that will meet in members homes.

    To be completely honest, I cannot remember a lot about the message. Only one thing the pastor said concerned me.The following week,I called a friend who had just left a denomination that she discovered was in deception to discuss my church visit..She suggested I not attend this church. Ironically, during my conversation with her she mentioned that she was now beginning to believe that; some are pre-destined. At that time several Bible passages raced through my mind and we discussed some of them. The CD on Reformed Theology, that I thought I had ordered by mistake was apparently for her. We saw each other several weeks ago and I gave it to her,hoping we will discuss it when we get togather again. However, I need to have it soon for my other two friends who I brunched with last week.

    To be fair,I think I should give the Church another chance…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bloomie

    It’s not about being fair. It’s about the truth. Satan is never fair, he could not give a hoot about a single person on this wretched earth of ours. Even the ones doing his bidding are going to get a big shock when they find their cosmic christ or light being lied to them all the way to the soul bank.

    Now you are born again, he hates you even more. There is no fairness in what he wants to achieve which is a delusion of grandeur, since he was defeated by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and the sheding of His Blood.

    So, go back, listen again, but be wide awake.

    I dunno Matthew Henry commentaries so I wont comment on that one.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bob

    When I read that I thought to myself, “how can Macarthur say such a thing?”.

    I went off to make a cuppa tea (not coffee, I ain’t Emergent lol) and it hit me. If you go by the doctrine of being predestined you will have no sinful nature. The Bible says that mankind was born into a sinful world and has a sinful nature and will remain sinful. But by the Grace of God go I for I am born again and washed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Does that mean we can never sin again? Impossible.

    That is why ongoing repentance of sin in your relationship with Jesus Christ is imperative. And you will want to repent because of the Holy Spirit that abides in you when you are saved – He constantly humbles and convicts you of the life you are living, the sin in your life – even as you grow and are regenerated into Christ-likeness, you will never be sinless. (And by becoming like Jesus Christ, I mean becoming like Jesus, wanting to be like Him and live a life pleasing to God, not becoming LIKE Jesus Christ on His level and above – that is satanic).

    If however in the doctrine of election, God has chosen you before you were born, that means you were born ‘sinless’.

    Am I so missing the picture here????????? Or is that like the most shocking way of viewing predestination?

  • Amanda

    Hi Mark

    Have you read An uncommon spiritual path – the quest to find Jesus beyond conventional Christianity yet?

    Bloomie

    First read A Listener’s Guide to the Pulpit An Article from Issues Etc. Journal by Todd Wilken

    How hard could it be? You go to church. The preacher preaches. You sit and listen. Easy, right?

    But how do you tell the difference between a good sermon and a bad sermon? What makes good preaching good, and bad preaching bad?

    Then feast on some sermons from Faith Lutheran Church and or Holy Trinity Lutheran Church. Refuse to chew on stones in the future. You might also enjoy Chris Rosebrough’s stunning Fighting for the Faith podcasts.

    Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible is a free add on to the free electronic Bible called e-Sword.

  • Amanda

    Deborah

    I realised I gotta start adding the words love to all my comments before anyone takes me seriously lol.

    Oh, please, not that! I promise you I’ll … I’ll … sic Olak at you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    >> I realised I gotta start adding the words love to all my comments before anyone takes me seriously lol.

    >> Oh, please, not that! I promise you I’ll … I’ll … sic Olak at you.

    I consider that a declaration of war. My parrot can talk (ok it’s like 1 word, but still – I am teaching him to say ‘I love you’), what can Olak do?

    peace, love, blessings to you…from me and everyone in the whollleeee wide world hehe

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    Oh yes, revealing book from Deon Forster on following the Cosmic Christ, you know about him don’t you?

    Figured out the meditation and prayer thing yet? It’s ok, take your time. But not too much time, Jesus Christ is coming back soon to rapture the church, get on the right path and quickly (genuine love, from me)

  • Amanda

    Thatsit. Olak, SIC! Slobber! Slobber!

    Goooood BOY!

  • Thomas Lessing

    Deborah

    Calvinists do not believe they were born sinless. On the contrary they do believe that everyone was born in sin and are dead in their trespasses and sins. Their interpretation, however, of “dead” in trespasses and sins is rather weird. They believe that this “dead” in trespasses is akin to a corpse that is wholly incapable of hearing, understanding and responding to the Gospel. They conveniently forget that neither can a corpse sin and if it cannot sin how can you hold it accountable for something it is wholly incapable of doing?

    Calvinists have developed the knack to amplify words to the degree that they take on new meaning without meaning anything. Take for instance the word “depravity.” The dictionary defines it as moral corruption and degradation. Like the word “dead” the word “depraved” means just what it says. Dead is dead and depraved is depraved. You cannot be more dead than dead and neither can you be more depraved than depraved. How do I reach such a conclusion? Well, everyone will agree that a small sin is just as bad as a big sin because both lead to the same result – eternal separation from God. And yet Calvinists take it a step further and say, “No, depravity cannot describe what we have in mind when we say all men are dead in trespasses and sins. Living people can also be depraved and in fact they all are because we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. What we need is a word that describes total death and that’s why we have come up with the brilliant phrase ‘Total Depravity.’ Although we do not have a free-will we have chosen to use the phrase ‘Total Depravity’ in stead of ‘depravity’ because it glorifies God’s sovereignty so much the better.”

    What then about God’s grace? Well God’s grace is exemplified so much the better by “Total Depravity.” You see, if mankind was not totally depraved (as dead as a corpse that is completely impotent)and had some measure of “free-williness” to boast about, he would have been quite capable of saying: “I have attributed something to my salvation and that something is faith.” And this is exactly why Calvinists, like John MacArthur, cannot testify about the time of their conversion and only admit: ” Yeah. I’ve never been able to do that. And it doesn’t bother me. I think I’m one of those kids…I was one of those kids that never rebelled and always believed. (Isn’t it strange that the boasting of the rich young man, ‘I have observed all your commandments since my youth’ has echoed throughout the centuries to this very day?) And so when God did His saving work in my heart, it was not discernable to me.” What? Your salvation was not discernible? When God the Son who became flesh and dwelt among us makes His abode in your innermost being, the very first thing you experience is a joy and peace that surpasses all understanding. You know that you know that you know your sins have been forgiven for all eternity and you fall down before Him in complete abandonment and gratitude for his unfathomable and wonderful mercy. If it wasn’t discernible then how is it discernible now? Ah! but of course your perseverance since your pristine youth has given you the assurance that you are saved. But isn’t that equal to good works?

  • Elmarie A

    what can Olak do?

    Give lots of love and licks, barking, funny face hmmm lots he. Most of all he loves to make peace.

    peace, love, blessings to you…from me and everyone in the whollleeee wide world hehe

    I second that!!

  • Bloomie

    Amanda, Thanks for the referal to the articles.

    I will read every thing before beginning my Church hunt again. And no, I have not read An uncommon spiritual path. I hope it’s not contemplative.

  • Bloomie

    Debra,

    Thanks , for reminding me of satans plans for born again believers. My concern in wanting to give the Church another chance was because, I cannot remember the message.(maybe ,that alone should be a reason not to return).

    After looking at an article that Amanda recommended, the criteria for a good sermon seems insurmountable for any of the previous churches I have visited. I have hope that I will find this needle in the haystack out there.

  • Grant C

    Thomas

    Grant wrote:

    I find it inconsistent with our calling to spend even minutes, hours or days scrutinizing the MacArthurs of this world, when we should be seeking out the not so glaringly obvious. Or is it that we are a little scared to take on true evil when we know it will seriously bite us back.

    and Grant wrote:

    This is exactly what I was referring to: a long-winded attack on theological doctrine, which has little relevance to salvation, but certainly saps away at valuable energy and time. I repeat 2 Timothy 2:23. All the while Satan’s grin gets wider and wider because of the foolish futility thereof. While accepting the free will of man, we must make every effort to ensure that we do not underestimate the will of God and overestimate the range of that free will given to man.

    and Grant also wrote:

    Simple faith as I rarely see in our city churches. They would certainly not have any idea of doctrinal differences

    and also:
    >blockquote> …not that I have ever been an avid supporter of MacArthur, though.

    Burning Lamp correctly noted:

    This is not a Calvinism vs Armenian debate. Neither extreme is correct.

    I have made my stance on the issue clear in the above. I will not be drawn on the debate concerning doctrines. Doing so would be in direct opposition to the point which I am trying so hard to make. Fruitless argument.

    Again:
    2 Timothy 2:23

    23But refuse (shut your mind against, have nothing to do with) trifling (ill-informed, unedifying, stupid) controversies over ignorant questionings, for you know that they foster strife and breed quarrels.

    Thomas wrote:

    I can assure you that the doctrine of election/predestination has everything to do with salvation

    In short, not really, I think it has all to do with Jesus and Biblical truth, not our varied and possibly faulty interpretations.

    Ok Grant, what is the will of God which you seem to think I am undermining?

    I have no idea where you got that from. I certainly did not allude to anything of the sort.

  • Bloomie,

    I would like to withdraw my recommendation to read M Henry’s commentaries because I have learned he is a Calvinist and an amillenialist.

  • Mark,

    God has raised up teachers among us for the perfecting of the saints. And the local church is more than just teachers. So what is 1 John saying? I quote this verse in a time where it seems most teachers are false and aren’t grounded in the word and so I believe it means that we don’t need a teacher because God can lead us to all truth. In other words, we don’t have to be shackled into a local church if the teaching is bad because God can teach us.

  • Deborah,

    You told the truth about sin and that the Christian life is a life of ongoing repentance. “If however in the doctrine of election, God has chosen you before you were born, that means you were born ’sinless’” It would mean you were chosen sinless. And I’m just guessing, but I think the Calvinist puts himself in an assembly line and if they were chosen, then they will be elected, justified, sactified, glorified and end up in Heaven. And they had no choice during the whole process and so why bother repenting too much because they know where the assembly line ends. But I really don’t know about it.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    *waves white flag* I surrender. The slobber part was just too much to handle.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bloomie

    Nah that was wasn’t for you. Please don’t read it unless you need a good education on how bad contemplative spirituality is.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thomas

    Ahhhhhhh ok, that makes sense regarding the sinless issue. Or is that, “total sense”.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Grant

    In short, not really, I think it has all to do with Jesus and Biblical truth, not our varied and possibly faulty interpretations.

    That’s the whole point. We dare not have a faulty interpretation of the doctrine of salvation. If Jesus came to the world to seek and to save the lost and to suffer and die on a cursed cross, then it must be the most important doctrine there is and ever was. And yet you seem to think it is a trifling controversy and you even quote 2 Timothy 2:23 to validate your point. Please, for the sake of clarity and the meaning of that verse, read the next few verses as well.

    In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    The “unlearned” questions that tend to lead to quarrels are points that cannot be settled. In some of my discussions with people on salvation and the absolute necessity to be saved, many sidetrack you by asking silly questions such as “Where did Cain get his wife.” Well, you can do one of two things. You can either allow yourself to be drawn into a long and silly discussion about where Cain found his wife or you could politely and gently tell the person: “Let’s first focus on salvation and maybe later we can talk about Cain. To know where he got his wife is not going to help us understand salvation any better.”

    To be caught in the snares of the devil is also definitely not a trifling controversy. It is a deadly serious thing and when given the opportunity we should be able to help people escape his snares by presenting the truth to them.

    We are admonished to earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to us.

  • Amanda

    Deborah

    *waves white flag*

    I should think so! Now go and teach Feathers to say ‘good doggie’ in stead of you-know-what.

    Bloomie

    After looking at an article that Amanda recommended, the criteria for a good sermon seems insurmountable for any of the previous churches I have visited.

    Precisely. Bob said it:

    The problem today is that Christians are afraid to tell the truth because they care about what others think and feel about them. The only sin in the churches today seems to be social sin. They fear man more than God. And they all ask, “What about me?” They haven’t counted the cost. The cost to speak truth boldly is too high and so they self-edit and they surveille any situation they are in to assess how much truth can be told without getting themselves in trouble.

    [Mark, have you read Dion’s An uncommon spiritual path – the quest to find Jesus beyond conventional Christianity yet?]

    Bloomie, don’t go there unprepared. It is dark. Read again Thomas’ comment. Jesus Christ is the object of our faith. Preachers should be preaching Him.

    Thomas

    Ah! but of course your perseverance since your pristine youth has given you the assurance that you are saved. But isn’t that equal to good works?

    Thomas, could you expound more on good works vs. grace? You can interpret the question any way you want, as I am not sure what the right question is. I know that preachers dazzle people with good works preaching and obscure Jesus Christ.

  • 1 John 2:26 says, “…As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you;…” It’s part of a broader thought started in verse 18, “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming…”

    The ‘anyone’ isn’t referring to Biblically qualified, properly mandated teachers in a local body of believers but to the false teachers, the antichrist[s], introduced in verse 18.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark Prenrith

    Oh, time is a ticking…

    Is meditation and prayer the same thing? Come come… not that difficult. Maybe you can ask Dion Forster for help he knows the answer.

  • Amanda

    Bloomie

    The preachers have taught for years: “Do not judge” and it stuck. It has left the church defenceless. The elders would rather be enslaved and be struck in the face than be thought of as loveless or risk being driven out.

    Mark

    Dion has impressive credentials, yet he says:

    In my speaking and writing you will hear a strong emphasis on the need to have a significant, real, and lived daily relationship with Jesus. However, belief in Jesus, and personal salvation demands some concrete action! One cannot love Jesus, and be loved by Jesus, without wanting to change the world. [bold added]

    Where did that law come from? Mark, take some time out, read the book and see if you and Dion share the same religion.

  • Thomas Lessing

    I doubt very strongly whether John refers to false teachers and the Antichrist[s] as those who do not need to teach God’s children. He would never have used such an expression “no need for anyone to teach you” if he actually referred to false teachers. I should think that he would rather have warned his brethren against false teachers forthrightly. His statement “no need for anyone to teach you” implies that the “anyone” may indeed have sound doctrine to teach but those who are truly saved have no need of their tuition.

    John is referring to the very essentials of Christian doctrine as we find it in verse 25 “And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.” Born-again Christian already know here and now that they already have (not “will have” or “may have” or “don’t have”) eternal life through Jesus and no one is able to convince them otherwise. The truly born-again children of God have been anointed to know and understand exactly what salvation means. No one needs to teach them what it means and no one will ever be able to lead them astray to believe otherwise. Does that mean they cannot be led astray into other kinds of error? No! no one is immune (1 Corinthians 10:12). It simply means that no man will ever be able to convince them there are other ways to be saved, except through Jesus Christ. Those who believe there are many ways to God are deceived and do not have eternal life. They are lost. They do not have the anointing of God.

  • geoff

    Accordingly as I have read you articles over some time I find that no-one in the body of Christ is spared any censure. According to you all & everyone is at fault…………………..so why then hurt the same body you are part of?.
    Since when are you the judge or the Sherif of the church?
    It seems so clear that all you do is NOT “preach the gospel’, all you do is bash!!!!
    When are we going to see you, teaching the word?
    When are we going to see you perfect?
    When are we going to see you give us some spiritual food?

    I mean, all I see is bashing, EVEN a pig would not want to come & drink in a water trough if he gets beaten over the head everytime he comes to drink/

    I suppose all preachers are wrong, you know everything, so why does God not give you a platform to denounce these “charlatans”. by platform I mean, where is the fuit of what you are doing?

    I dare you to publish my post!!!

  • geoff

    Sorry to be a pain in the butt, but do you actually believe that the whole church is wrong & you only have the truth? According to your blog articles i am confused because everyone is wrong.
    I read that this is a blog for all christians, surely the looooooooooong list of defamed ministers are a part of the body of christ or are you the only member and it’s totality!

  • geoff

    CONFUSING, YES VERY CONFUSING?

    “Why would there even be teachers if absolutely everyone out there is false”?

    Quote from blog reader below.

    This is very confusing…..

    See about two weeks ago I ordered a Macarthur Study Bible (which I am still waiting for). And I prayed hard and long before ordering it…done countless searches, was even directed by comments from this site that its a good tool for “baby” new-born Christians like myself.
    Should I now chuck it into the nearest dustbin? Please note I am not criticizing, I am asking. See I know there is false prophets out there. But why would I be lead to John’s teaching in the first place? I truly thought from what I read, prayed about that one can listen to his teachings, not follow him for salvation of course but that one can at least have one solid teacher. Does this mean that there is no one left? That absolutely everyone out there is sinister?
    See my question/problem statement is not in defense of John MacArthur, but out of concern that I am not the only “baby” Christian ou there. I know and believe with my whole heart that Jesus is my savior, and that the Holy Spirit is the gentle whisper in my ear and that the Spirit would lead me to all truths. BUT there is no way that I understand everything. Why after praying so hard for some truthful guide to help me , would the Spirit then lead me to a Macarthur study bible, just to be lead away again? I don’t understand and has been on my knees since I read this article. Why would there even be teachers if absolutely everyone out there is false?
    I know I don’t understand the bigger picture, but by reading the article are we now to discard teachings of people purely because some-one is keeping company with some-one working in the UN? (Please note again this is not criticism but a rhetoric question).
    Sorry for the babble, but as stated in my first sentence this is all so confusing. ….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    geoff

    Oh so you are the only other person who knows what’s right? Read the Bible? Millions of Christians have it RIGHT. And this blog is for Christians. If you don’t know what Christianity means or entails then, dude, that’s a problem you need to rectify between Jesus Christ the Son of God and yourself.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    goeff

    Yes, what you say is babble. Because if you read the comments it’s explained very clearly. So until you read everything, you will continue to ask rhetorical questions that have been answered already.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    geoff

    I can’t make you see the truth, I can’t save you geoff. But there is Jesus Christ the Son of God who can save you and will save you if you want to know him. Humble yourself before Him, come before Jesus Christ and repent of your sin, say you are sorry to Jesus for everything in your life that is wicked. Ask Jesus to come into your life, ask Him to take over your life. Tell Him that you genuinely want a relationship with Him, because you love Him. Pick up your Bible and start reading it and studying it. Show God that you are indeed interested to know the truth.

    You know your heart geoff, you come here and say that all you see is bashing. Well if you are happy that I leave false teaching alone and don’t warn so that people can go to hell, then you will have a lot of answering to do one day SOON when you stand before God.

  • ItsHellWithoutJESUS

    THIS IS JOHN MACARTHUR’S BIBLE BEING EXPOSED FOR DENYING THE BLOOD OF JESUS.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpyFA8hlY7Y

    THIS IS HIM TRYING TO COVER UP HIS DENIAL, BUT DENIES ALL OVER AGAIN

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    It’shellwithoutJesus

    I didn’t wanna approve your comment until I had listened to the video’s myself, and I did, and maybe it’s because I have not slept for the last 3 nights (insomnia kicking in again) that I came very close to crying again.

    I can’t believe this. I went and check my study bible that I have of his and low and behold it’s there all there, he denies that the Blood of Jesus plays any part in your salvation.

    The Blood of Jesus is what washes away our sins, covers us, makes us spotless, so that we can be presented before God. If one denies that the blood of Jesus plays no part in salvation then….wow, shock, horror.

    The lamb sacrifice in the OT: was a spotless lamb (equated to being sinless). The lambs blood was spilled and Moses would sprinkle the sacrificed animals blood over the people. By doing this, the blood of the Lamb was washing away their sin.

    Jesus was born sinless, walked the earth sinless and was nailed to the cross SINLESS. We believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sin, that His blood that was shed on the cross washes away our sin, that Jesus died on the cross, defeated Satan, and physically rose 3 days later.

    WoF and other people say that Jesus took on our sin on the cross, that is the most satanic thing ever. If Jesus took our sin on the cross, then he was no longer a perfect sacrifice and His Blood would be tainted.

  • ItsHellWithoutJESUS

    well according to John macarthur, the blood of Jesus is meaningless, and we know that the bible says, the blood of Jesus is foolishness to those who are perishing…
    so i guess according to him, he is not covered by the blood of Jesus because its worthless to him.
    his followers on youtube come barking at you like a bulldog if you try to point out the error of their ‘perfect’ teacher macarthur.

  • Amanda

    Hi Mark

    Have you opened An uncommon spiritual path – the quest to find Jesus beyond conventional Christianity yet?

  • Burning Lamp

    This is HUGE. Thank you Deborah for posting this. To cite an old saying, “You have more guts than a government mule.” Said with all admiration and appreciation reserving all glory to the Lord of course. The adoration of man for man is sickening – respect should stop at the door of holiness and sound doctrine. A true friend of MacArthur would try to reason with him and show him his error. This is so very serious. The man on the video is speaking the truth in love and his manner is not harsh.

  • Thomas Lessing

    Geoff said:

    Since when are you the judge or the Sherif of the church?
    It seems so clear that all you do is NOT “preach the gospel’, all you do is bash!!!!

    Have you ever figured out why the apostle Jude was guilty of the very same thing you are accusing Deborah of?

    Jude 3-5 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    I know I don’t understand the bigger picture, but by reading the article are we now to discard teachings of people purely because some-one is keeping company with some-one working in the UN? (Please note again this is not criticism but a rhetoric question).

    Have you never figured out why Paul wrote the following?

    2 Corinthians 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    The UN is working toward a one world government and religion and for the destruction of biblical Christianity and you dare to ask such a silly rhetorical question?

  • Bloomie

    Debra,

    Do you know anything about the AWANA programs that are now so popular in many churches?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    OKAYYY

    Just in case you were wondering what happened to my blog for a few hours. I was taken down by some Christians who thought it necessary to stop me.

    See I am not a change agent and wont meet for coffee and this is a BIG problem for them. My problem is I don’t drink coffee…oh and that their intentions are purely 100% false.

    I will write a small article tomorrow called ‘the coffee shop next door’. I knew this cool title would come in use sooner or later.

    THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR SUPPORT and LOVE

    If you posted any comments and it did not go through, I ask that you post them again.

    This donkey is on the move again…

  • Hi Deborah,

    I came across this very interesting John Macarthur quote relating to the blood of Christ and salvation,

    “Peter calls His blood “precious” and I agree . . . but Peter’s reference there is to the sacrificial nature of His death. . . . The phrase “Christ died for our sin” (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3) expresses the truth that death was the penalty, not blood. . . I Peter 2:24 is not saying we are saved by his wounds. . . . If we say that it is the blood that saves . . . what are we saying? His actual blood, physically, saves us? Or perhaps we are stuck with the Roman Catholic Church “perpetual offering” view that some hold. This view says that Christ perpetually sacrifices Himself. He took His blood into heaven and keeps offering it. Hebrews 10:12-14 forbids such a view.
    Clearly it was His death . . . once for all. His shed blood was part of the violence of it, and speaks of it as sacrifice, but we are saved by His substitutionary death for us, not by the chemicals in His blood.”

    Seems this isn’t an open and shut case. There’s more well researched content here: .

  • Oops,

    I quoted the wrong paragraph. Meant to quote,

    Scripture plainly teaches that only a blood sacrifice can atone for sin and appease the wrath of God against the sinner. God told Old Testament Israel, “The life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul” (KJV). Hebrews 9:22 states it succinctly: “Without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
    So atonement by shedding of blood is absolutely essential to the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness is impossible without a propitiatory sacrifice. Scripture teaches this plainly. The wrath and justice of God must not be downplayed in our understanding of His forgiveness. [(Wheaton: Crossway, 1998), 22.]

  • geoff

    [EDITED: geoff, if you keep challenging me to delete your comments after you write comments full of unbiblical nonsence, I will delete them. Now go post somewhere else where they tolerate ‘babble’]

  • geoff

    [EDITED: geoff, if you keep challenging me to delete your comments after you write comments full of unbiblical nonsence, I will. Look, it’s gone? Don’t complain you asked me too.]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    Got me an answer yet on the difference between meditation and prayer? No? It’s been a few weeks now Mark. I will keep asking you, because it seems that if I don’t Dion Forser wont either.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    No problem… BUT:

    Got me an answer yet on the difference between meditation and prayer? No? It’s been a few weeks now Mark. I will keep asking you, because it seems that if I don’t Dion Forser wont either.

  • Elmarie A

    Mark

    read this article maybe you can find the answer here and give us the answer.

    NEW AGE Pathways in the church.
    Mediation and other methods are a very quick way to be introduced to a new world view and it will certainly not be a Christian one. In fact one new age practice leads to another as one pursues spiritual growth by these methods. That is my personal experience, you see it has to, for one to go deeper and to the next level of intimacy.
    http://www.letusreason.org/current86.htm

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie

    He knows the answer, he just refuses to follow the Word of God.

  • Hi Deborah and Elmarie,

    It’s not that I’m ignoring you it’s just that I spent a great deal of time writting my thoughts on the differences between prayer and meditation down on paper. I posted them here (markpenrith.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/meditation-for-christians-what-it-is-and-how-to-do-it/). Is there something Biblically incorrect with what I wrote?

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    We can only pray for Mark.

    Mark you are in our prayers.

    The New Age web is huge and so deceiving because
    as someone said :

    The most dangerous threat to true Christianity is not the Lie but the ” NEAR TRUTH” of the latter, the world overflows like a Tsunami!!!

    very true words said Oom Christo, thanks!! To understand we must read:

    Ezekiel 33: 6 & 8 (Amplified Bible)
    6But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, he is taken away in and for his perversity and iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.
    8When I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his perversity and iniquity, but his blood will I require at your hand.

    It is for this reason we have to sound the trumpet, he goes on saying.

    You just keep asking Mark that question DTW endure!

  • cecilia

    Bloomie, March 19th

    Awana (derived from the first letters of Approved workmen are not ashamed as taken from 2 Timothy 2:15) is an international evangelical nonprofit organization founded in 1950, headquartered in Streamwood, Illinois. The mission of Awana is to help “churches and parents worldwide raise children and youth to know, love and serve Christ.”[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awana

    Streamwood is home to nine Christian churches:
    • Faith Missionary Baptist Church
    • Immanuel United Church of Christ
    • Grace Bible Church
    • Grace Lutheran Church
    • Mercy Community Church
    • New Hope Community
    • St. John the Evangelist Catholic Church
    • The Church in Streamwood
    • Truelight Lutheran Church
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streamwood,_Illinois

    >>> my feelings: this is a perfect example of the new (world) evangelical / missionary branch, handling differences by concentrating on mutual shared and “agree to disagree” aspects. And yes, the children, the youth, the young hearts and minds are chosen to work on.
    When we look at the NINE churches involved in this, it could spell out tolerance, compromising, love and mutual acceptance.
    Bloomie, You have lots of reading to do @ websites provided, where you will be pointed to different links about this vast subject.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    We’ve had this discussion and what you ‘think’ vs what the bible says are two different things. You play the field. You are friends with all sorts. You agree with them and mock me and then you come here and act like a saint.

    I was actually thinking about you last night and I thought, ‘why do I even give this guy my time, he is a trickster like the rest of them. He knows the gospel, he has a Bible, he can read, he has a brain, so I don’t need to waste any more of my time on him. He has no excuse.’

    So, go away Mark.

    And just to let you know, you are the worst Change Agent I have ever come across. I think you need to go on more courses.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie

    very true words said Oom Christo, thanks!! To understand we must read:

    Ezekiel 33: 6 & 8 (Amplified Bible)
    6But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, he is taken away in and for his perversity and iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.
    8When I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his perversity and iniquity, but his blood will I require at your hand.

    It is for this reason we have to sound the trumpet, he goes on saying.

    I think I missed something here. Who is oom Christo?

  • geoff

    I am saving all my comments of your page (snapshot & in Internet explorer to prove you are a liar by deleting what you cannot back up biblically.

    [EDITED: That’s fine. Snap shot this one too – rules and regulations http://www.discerningtheworld.com/about-this-blog-rules/ IN FACT SNAPSHOT MY ENTIRE BLOG and then go and speak to someone who cares about your insulting comments being deleted on my blog. Your first few comments on this topic spell out exactly the type of person who lands in my blacklist section. Please do me a favour and email John MacArthur’s ministry this article and all your snapshot comments too. Let’s make sure he gets it.

    In fact if you can get any one of them to come and comment on this article that would be a miracle.]

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    I think I missed something here. Who is oom Christo?

    He is also a watchmen on the wall I made contact with in the past week. Will mail you the details. He wrote me a letter about his ministry and also share the very same views as ourselves and DTW. Words in his letter just came to mind while I did the post. Copy of his letter to you will explain more. Sorry for the confusion caused. lol

  • cecilia

    we went 2 the movies – saw “The Book of Eli”. mmmmmmm…. I’ve been telling people for some time now to learn Scripture by heart; the day the Word is gonna be taken away (forcefully) and all burned up, is nearing… and how many will be able to quote correctly from the Bible as it is written, not as is added…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    What’s the Holy Spirit for C? He is the one that guides us. They can throw bibles away and yet when the time comes you will be able to say what you need to say because the Holy Spirit abides in you.

    Or you can have people quote scripture to you until the cows come home who are still not saved…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie

    >> He wrote me a letter about his ministry and also share the very same views as ourselves and DTW

    I’ll check it out before I agree, or not…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie

    Ok, I know who he is. Thank you!

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Okie dokie. :-)

  • cecilia

    agree Debs! thanks for saying that! totally Agree!

  • Bloomie

    Deborah, thanks for the information about the AWANA programs.

    This program was recently introduced into the church that my girlfriend attends, and she was asked to spearhead it. After doing minimal research, I concluded that it was ecumenical and the fruit it produces , is false conversions without repentance.

  • Thomas Lessing

    To Mark Penrith

    I’m interested in your librivox audio button on your blog. How do you insert it in your blog? With a widget?

    I have also noticed that you have labeled me a an Armenian in your list. Dead wrong, friend. I am no Armenian. Just a plain child of God.

  • ItsHellWithoutJESUS

    this video exposes how macarthur’s study bible copyrights are owned by roman catholics and his bible is based on the vatican version of the bible.

  • I sure hope at the end of the day, after you have finished exposing all the errors of the church, that Jesus still makes the cut.

    Grace and Peace.

    [Edited: Jerry please just stay at the Emergent http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2010/04/05/fools-rush-in website where the Jesus spoken of there is a false Christ.]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jerry

    >> I sure hope at the end of the day, after you have finished exposing all the errors of the church, that Jesus still makes the cut.

    Go read your Bible – – that is the Jesus Christ speaking directly to you

  • Truth

    Oh my God you have dented my faith in the bible so badly!. I read where Jesus said HE would build His church AND of course warned believers to be careful of some false teachings.

    It seems to me that Jesus is doing such a bad job because all people He is using to build His church are according to you false!

    I wonder if what Jesus said was true OR if you are now the new Lord with authority over our Lord Jesus the head of the church!!!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Truth

    1) you said…”be careful of some false teachings”.
    ‘some’ false teaching? Well there is your first problem. No! ALL FALSE teaching, and that includes the diabolical teaching of predestination or Election.

    2) Jesus is doing a PERFECT job, He always will – its the people who wont listen to Him and his warning. You happy to know that John MacArthur denies the blood of Jesus Christ? (is that the some of the false teaching you are willing to ignore?)

    3) Of course Jesus is the way the TRUTH and the life – and if your faith is so easily dented then I suggest you get on your knees and pray and ask Jesus why you are so easily dented. Bad things are going to happen, liars will come and steal from you, they rob you of the truth and then you blame Jesus for it? The Bible warns you of this over and over and over again. So when these things happen…what do you do? What you do is you learn, you grow, you pick up your bible, READ IT and move on down the narrow path – you have learnt a VALUABLE LIFE CHANGING lesson that has saved your soul. Now you can warn others.

    Regarding your very nasty little sentence at the end. I will just ignore that.

  • Valerie

    I have enjoyed reading the comments here. I was raised in a Christian home, not Reformed or Arminian, just God fearing, Bible believing parents, who taught me that salvation is by Grace through Faith.

    In my early twenties, I was sucked into Calvinism, but was not a 5 pointer. My main reason was because of my “experience” in which I felt life was a big game and I had no choice but to turn to Christ. I now believe that what I was experiencing was the effects of the prayer of my family. The conviction of sin was so great.

    It wasn’t until a few years ago that through a study on faith I realized that Faith is not a work, it is also not a gift.In Ephesians we are dead in the sense of being under the PENTALTY of death, but not dead to recognizing sin and truth. All men are under the curse of death, and though we are powerless to stop sinning, it does not mean that man is unable to recognize his sin.

    Reguardless of how vile a sinner a person is, if I tell him the truth that his earthly house is on fire, he has the ability to believe or reject that truth. His sinful condition does not affect his judgement. 1 Corinthians 4:4 makes it clear that the god of this world has blinded the minds of the “UNBELIEVING”. Those who refuse to believe what Jesus Christ came and plainly told us concerning our desperate condition and our need of His saving work on the cross, are those who are blinded to the Gospel. God does not elect some to believe or others to reject the truth.

  • Robbie

    First dent – “Oh my God” – Using His name in vain
    Second dent – Not reading full context and getting stuck at a verse
    Third dent…

    Really Truth, there are a lot of dents and it is not all in your faith… Use some discernment and search the Scriptures properly.

  • Valerie

    Correction 2 Corinthians 4:4

  • David Emme

    I would say first, John MaCarthur is accused of so much that is false. Her also has publicly taught against both emergent church and Purpose driven life. He also published a book about some conceptions in Christianity as erroneous with a chapter on purpose driven life. I somewhat think, there is probably quite a bit that people try to use as not always truthful that most times in an accusation like this more then likely strings people like this along because he is a pastor of his church. Even if true-I just do not see it as one of these things he gets all worried baout. Over the years there has been so much lied about Dr. John-I think unless a member of his church-he will not be too worried about this

  • bob

    Valerie,

    Good comment. Don’t Calvinists eliminate free will? And that bothers me since free will is biblical. We do have free will. And doesn’t the Bible say somewhere that we are chosen or elected with God’s foreknowledge? Meaning He knew who would believe and so he chose those who would believe. And the Calvinists try to tell us that faith is a gift when it isn’t. That verse they quote means salvation is a gift, but not faith.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    David

    If you read my article carefully you will see that I was distraught after finding out the truth regarding John MacArthur. Please go and read the links below the article too and the comments made regarding the ‘Blood of Jesus’. That is not something to be taken lightly. And even though he preaches against Purpose Driven church and life he actually does used the model. Anyhow, please go through all the info carefully and never take anyone for granted.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    bob

    >> Meaning He knew who would believe and so he chose those who would believe.

    Yes, God knew before we were born who would accept him and who wouldn’t. But we do not know who will follow Him and who wont, hence we preach the gospel to everyone of every nationality, race, etc. So that they may hear the Word of God and make a DECISION on what to with what they have heard.

    The gospel of Jesus Christ is so simple. When things start getting complicated in a doctrine that is when you put up your little red flag and start to pannic LOL.

  • Burning Lamp

    Deborah said:

    The gospel of Jesus Christ is so simple. When things start getting complicated in a doctrine that is when you put up your little red flag and start to pannic LOL.

    AMEN!! Perfectly stated! The only caveat to that is that so many have watered and dumbed it down to mean nothing. No repentance, no committment. But that does not nullify the fact that the Gospel is very umcomplicated and straightforward. It is man who has messed it up.

    One thing that I would like to add is that it is not our words when sharing with a lost person, it is the Word of God that has the power to save because the Holy Spirit is the author and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and leads to salvation. Too many times Gospel presenters depend upon their own words rather than God’s Word. It never returns void and has great power!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp

    >> it is not our words when sharing with a lost person, it is the Word of God that has the power to save because the Holy Spirit is the author and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and leads to salvation.

    Absolutely. And this is something I will never forget.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bob

    >> I don’t follow the Book of Enoch.

    You don’t follow the book of Enoch or read it, yet you are a full on into the occult version of the Nephilim? And serpent seed teaching? That is why I asked if you followed/read the Book of Enoch…because I noticed a lot of Nephilim type stuff being spoken off. I mean, if you are going to read all kinds of other funny books then you may as well read the book of Enoch and get it over and done with. Just my thoughts.

  • Deborah, (or who ever it was who posted these articles by Bob)
    You have been taken in by a false teacher. I have interacted with and answered many of Bob’s phony charges since I first encountered him out in front of Grace Church in May of 2006 handing out his ridiculous paper outlining his conspiracy theory about Grace succumbing to TMQ and Hegelian-Marxist ideology. I have attempted to maintain an update on my personal blog of his goings on. John Coleman, the LA house preacher who entertains Bob’s lunatic ideas on his RAM radio webcast, refuses to let me come on and challenge his assertions. Both he and Bob, and Bob Klenck, the person who shapes a lot of B.J.’s conspiracy, dodge my inquiries challenging the foundational claims against Grace.

    I would hope you will inoculate yourself against Bob’s wild and unfounded accusations by reading over my posts answering his claims:

    Part 1 is here: http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2006/07/mending-chipped-ceramics.html

    Part 2 is here: http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2009/11/bob-johnson-saga-continued.html

    Fred

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    I realised long ago that there was something not right with Bob due to his links to Barbara Aho from watch. pair .com

    See conversation with him here: There are over 91 comments, so its gonna be a long read, but you will see WHY I say Bob is not biblically correct – and he is way off the track regarding certain issues.

    HOWEVER, I have checked out some of Bob’s info and it is true – mostly due to the fact that I have known about ‘some’ of the info he mentioned for some time – but I ignored it because I didn’t want to believe it was true. So for the purposes of ‘factual information’ and John MacArthur following Purpose Driven models that I agree with.

    Secondly, John MacArthur denies the blood of Jesus Christ and this is something that can’t be over looked. In fact if we were to remove all of Bob’s information and just use the FACT that John MacArthur says that Jesus’ blood is just liquid, it makes everything that Bob said quite dull in comparison. Also READ ALL the comments in this article (scroll up and start from the top)

    Anyhow, I agree with you that Bob is not OK on a BIBLICAL basis and his links with watch. pair. com are very concerning – who are into some weird stuff and are very much consumed with the the occult and serpent seed bloodlines.

    I went to read your website:

    — I see that you view the ushering in of the anti-Christ and NWO a conspiracy? Do you really believe this?

    — Are you are 5 point calvinist? You believe you are chosen/pre-destined by God to be saved?

    — Do you understand what the Purpose Driven model is?

  • Deborah,
    This is a repost. I think you noted something about being off line so my comment may not have made it through.

    You write,
    John MacArthur denies the blood of Jesus Christ and this is something that can’t be over looked.

    This is something of an old myth. John has tried to respond to this on many occasions. The most comprehensive response can be located here:
    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-44

    and of course the Q&A he did back in the late 80s before the IFCA conference:

    You ask:
    I see that you view the ushering in of the anti-Christ and NWO a conspiracy? Do you really believe this?

    Yes. Nothing can usher in the anti-christ any faster than what God has ordained. I mean, you do believe prophecy will be fulfilled, correct? At some point, the anti-christ has to be ushered in, right? It has to happen for the Bible to be true. However, what is pointed to by Bob and other tin-foil hat theologians is exaggerated and ridiculous. The U.N., for example, in it’s current form, is grossly incompetent to usher in any NWO of any kind.

    You ask,
    Are you are 5 point calvinist? You believe you are chosen/pre-destined by God to be saved?

    Yes. This is what the Bible teaches. See for example, Ephesians 1. Are you of the opinion God doesn’t chose or predestinate anyone? That is hard to believe seeing the doctrine is taught clearly throughout the pages of scripture.

    You ask,
    Do you understand what the Purpose Driven model is?

    Yes. And what Bob is saying it is with the TQM and Hegelian-Marxist nonsense is not it.

    Hopefully this get through this time,
    Fred

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    On denying the power of Jesus’ Blood to wash away sin and cover us when we are saved. John MacArthur says that Jesus’ Blood is just liquid. Is it a myth that this is in John MacArthur’s current study bible and has not bothered to remove this old myth.

    There is a big difference between being chosen by God (being selected or handpicked) vs God knowing our futures before we are born therefore He knows who will accept His Son and who wont.

    You said your comment was a re-post? Sorry I didn’t see it before. Apologies if it was accidentally deleted. It’s up now.

  • No apologies needed. I understand the quirkiness of the internet.

    On the blood of Jesus, Jesus’ blood was just blood. Unless you are attributing to it some magical, divine properties that cause it to function in some other capacity unrevealed to us in scripture. Do you think the blood of Jesus was more than just human blood? If you do, what exactly did His blood do beyond just being red, and liquid? I am assuming here that you have an understanding of the theological language of atonement. That being, what Christ’s death accomplished, the legality of his death, the turning away of wrath, etc.

    You write,
    There is a big difference between being chosen by God (being selected or handpicked) vs God knowing our futures before we are born therefore He knows who will accept His Son and who wont.

    Yes there is. Being chosen by God unconditionally is biblical, where as God having to gain information, i.e., know who will accept His son and who won’t, is heretical. The first reflects the teaching of Scripture, the second reflects Pelagian, Arian, Socinian concepts witnessed today among groups like the Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other forms of open theism.

  • Burning Lamp

    I hope John reads the posts explaining away Calvinist/Reformed Theology using the Word of God. John is assasinating the character of God to say He who would predetermine or predestinate anyone to hell.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    >> On the blood of Jesus, Jesus’ blood was just blood. Unless you are attributing to it some magical, divine properties that cause it to function in some other capacity unrevealed to us in scripture. Do you think the blood of Jesus was more than just human blood? If you do, what exactly did His blood do beyond just being red, and liquid? I am assuming here that you have an understanding of the theological language of atonement. That being, what Christ’s death accomplished, the legality of his death, the turning away of wrath, etc.

    First you say, “I am assuming here that you have an understanding of the theological language of atonement.” No I don’t understand big words, I prefer the simplicity of Salvation and being born again. :)

    I think the confusion comes in where WOF love to “plead the Blood of Jesus’ over oneself and others and everything for that matter, turning the blood of Jesus into a magic ritual of sorts. This is based on OT covenant where the blood of the animal would be sprinkled on doorsteps as a covering, offering spiritual protection, etc. However, this was a temporary covenant. This blood needed to be repeated daily and yearly.) This is law. We don’t do this. If we do this, we admonish Jesus’ sacrifice and his shed blood on the cross for us once and for all. If we do this blood covering we also shun the Holy Spirit. So yes, this is totally wrong.

    However in the context of salvation, Jesus’ Blood is precious and symbolises LIFE!

    In the NT God would later send His only Son providing a new covenant, or New Testament through Jesus Christ. Jesus would die in the place of all sinners. His sacrifice fulfilled completely what the Old Testament covenant meant to. His blood would remove the sins of the world for all who put their faith in Him. This sacrifice would never have to be repeated; it is an eternal covenant. And we have the Holy Spirit who then comes to abide in us, who leads us, comforts us, and convicts us of sin. The Holy Spirit in us, makes us want too obey God and live a life that is pleasing to Him.

    1 Peter 1:18-19, “For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.”

    The death and life of Jesus Christ is absolutely the most precious thing God has offered us.

    John the Baptist called Jesus the John 1:29 “Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world”

    The Lamb of course, referenced the unblemished animal sacrifice of the OT. There are many references to sacrificial offerings in the Old Testament.

    It is the blood of Jesus that cleans our conscience from sin and it’s influence upon us. When we receive the blood of Jesus we receive a new conscience, we become a new person, that desires to serve and obey God, a conscience that enjoys obeying God:

    Hebrews 9:13-14 “For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

    Rev 1:5-6 “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father–to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

    The holy blood that was in Jesus was poured out for you and me to make atonement for our sins so that we could have a new relationship with God. God calls this new relationship “The New Covenant”. It is the blood of Jesus that seals this new covenant that God made with people:

    Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

    Spiritually feeding on Jesus body and drinking His blood will fill you with His very life, because the life is in the blood. Food gives us nourishment, strength, and satisfaction. Jesus is our spiritual source of nourishment, strength, and satisfaction. (I am NOT speaking about Catholic Eucharist mass here and their perverted way of looking at communion)

    John 6:53-57 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54″Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 “For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”

    Jesus taught His disciples to remember His sacrifice for them. And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.

    Luke 22:19-20 19 “Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, 20 “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

    Blood covering washes away our sin and presents us holy and unblamable and spotless in God’s sight. If order for us to come before God, into His presence, you can ONLY come to the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ His Son. Once you accept Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross to save us and repent of your sin, His Blood covers you that you can appear spotless before God. If it was not for Jesus’ Blood you would not be able to stand before God! Jesus brings you into God’s presence and says, ‘Father, here is Fred” :) – That’s an example, I have no idea what Jesus says, so don’t even try pull me apart on that one –

    Colossians 1:20-22 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    Washing of water = Washed by the Blood of Jesus

    Ephesians 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    Why are you baptised? You die to yourself (flesh), the water symbolises the Blood of Jesus washing over you, giving you LIFE.

    I can go on… but I hope you understand the difference between the OT and NT Blood covering and that Jesus’s blood does not symbolise His death, but LIFE – His Blood is PRECIOUS!

    Oh and another thing. If Jesus’s Blood means nothing, then Jesus’ physical resurrection means nothing too as it was just ‘spiritual’. Hmmm – now that’s a shocker eh? One has to be soooooooooooo careful how you speak about Jesus Christ, just the slightest adding to Jesus, or taking away from Him changes the gospel and who Jesus is completely.

    Why could John MacArthur not explain this in his study bible? Instead Jesus’ blood is just liquid. No, spiritually it is LIFE GIVING and PRECIOUS BEYOND PRECIOUS.

    Now predestination:

    Yes there is. Being chosen by God unconditionally is biblical, where as God having to gain information, i.e., know who will accept His son and who won’t, is heretical. The first reflects the teaching of Scripture, the second reflects Pelagian, Arian, Socinian concepts witnessed today among groups like the Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other forms of open theism.

    You’ve got to be kidding. Please explain to me how ‘God knowing EVERYTHING including who will accept His Son and who won’t accept His Son, implies that He had to ‘gain information’ on who would and who would not accept His Son in future? Does God sit and hand pick people to be saved as each baby is born? “Oh you little one into the trash you go… oh and you little one, you will make it to heaven.”

    Luke 17:1-2 “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.”

    Matthew 18:12-14 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”

    Who do you think God is?

    Do you think that He had to ‘gain information’ in order to add prophecy into HIS WRITTEN WORD? for things that have not yet happened, but WILL. Please provide scripture to prove that God had to gain knowledge from somewhere to write in HIS OWN WORDS on future events.

    Are you saying that God handpicked Satan to fall? Did God need to hear the news (gain information) of Satan’s plans of mutiny from another source or is God omniscient and knows everything? If God chose satan to fall, please provide scripture for this, including the 1/3 of angels that followed him.

    Fred, Fed, Fred… anyhow… oh wait, I ain’t finished yet… there is more!!

    John Calvin said: “Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children” (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2226)

    Let’s go to the Bible and find some verses to show how God takes pleasure in destroying the wicked (that He chose/elected to be lost which is the opposite of being chosen/elected to be saved) – as per this stupid stupid stupid horrid doctrine of Predestination:

    Ezekiel 18:32 ‘For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,’ declares the Lord God. ‘Therefore, repent and live.’

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

    Oh imagine that: HE TAKES NO PLEASURE

    Tell me:

    1) How do you know you are chosen? Because you are saved?
    2) Or was it when you were saved, only then did you realise that you were chosen?
    3) Or because you believe you are chosen you are therefore saved?

    Let’s add another question:

    1) What difference does it make to your life knowing that you are saved or chosen to be saved? There must be a huge difference, because John Calvin made an acronym especially for it ;)

    Now Calvinism would agree that Jesus Christ came to save those who are chosen (before the time) by God. Yet the Bible says:

    Luke 19:10: ‘For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.’

    Hmmmmm Fred, we have a problem here. Are you chosen? Or lost? If you say you are chosen, then you are lost as per scripture.

    Me thinks you need to stop reading men’s interpretations of the Bible and who they think God IS, and study the BIBLE by yourself to show that you are approved. Then you can start asking people if they know words like ‘atonement’ and ‘sanctification’ and stuff.

    Glad to be of theological assistance to you, and you know what my degree is? Nothing. Sorry I have nothing to show you on paper that I am approved. But the bible says I will be in constant approval as long as I study and READ (yes that is something I can do) the Word of God -and the greatest teacher I have is the Holy Spirit.

    [Edited by DTW: I added in a few extra notes, re: resurrection, covered by the Blood of Jesus to enter God’s presence, and other stuff…]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ohhhh I feel a song coming on (which is rare lol)

    Amazing Grace

    Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me…. I once was lost but now am found. Was blind, but now, I see.

    T’was Grace that taught… my heart to fear. And Grace, my fears relieved. How precious did that Grace appear… the hour I first believed

    Through many dangers, toils and snares… we have already come. T’was Grace that brought us safe thus far… and Grace will lead us home.

    The Lord has promised good to me… His word my hope secures. He will my shield and portion be… as long as life endures.

    When we’ve been here ten thousand years… bright shining as the sun. We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise… then when we’ve first begun.

    Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me…. I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now, I see.

    Now I know this is a man made song, but it is so true. Predestination and Grace can’t appear in the same sentence as far as I am concerned.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Oh wait I just realised but there is a 3rd group of chosen!!!

    1) The Elect (Chosen by God to be saved)
    2) The Lost (The ones not chosen to be saved, therefore are chosen to be wicked and die)
    3) The inbetweeners or luke warm

    Revelation 3:15-16 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Oh this is a double whammy lol.

    2 Corinthians 6:14-18
    Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”

    A luke warm person who has the choice to associate with good or evil. When the person decides to follow God, and separates themselves from the wicked – God says “go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you says the Lord Almighty.”

    Then He will welcome you? And only then will He be your Father? Hmmm as per Calvin’s thinking because you ARE chosen that means you WERE ALREADY welcomed before birth. That contradicts scripture. I believe what God says, not John Calvin.

  • You write:

    However in the context of salvation, Jesus’ Blood is precious and symbolises LIFE! …
    Why are you baptised? You die to yourself (flesh), the water symbolises the Blood of Jesus washing over you, giving you LIFE….
    I can go on… but I hope you understand the difference between the OT and NT Blood covering and that Jesus’s blood does not symbolise His death, but LIFE – His Blood is PRECIOUS!

    Okay. All of those citations are nice and all, but that still doesn’t really explain why Christ’s physical blood is more than just human blood. The reason why his blood gives LIFE as you say, is due all to the fact he gave himself for our sins. The blood demonstrates a wrath appeasing death took place. God was satisfied with his offering because Christ had died. Not that he just bled. Do you understand the difference here? When the Bible says we are redeemed by Christ’s precious blood, it is referencing the fact that He died on our behalf as sinners, not that his blood had any intrinsic value that set it apart as divine blood that can impart some special quality.

    As to your question as to why we are baptized, Paul seems to disagree with you that the water symbolizes blood. Romans 6:3, or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. This is also the same thought found in Colossians 2:11-13. There is no mention of blood, but there is mention of Christ’s death, which the blood signified as having taken place on our behalf.

    Continuing:
    Oh and another thing. If Jesus’s Blood means nothing, then Jesus’ physical resurrection means nothing too as it was just ’spiritual’.

    Ummm. No. This is apples and elephants. First, John is not saying Christ’s blood means nothing. He has been quite clear that the blood of Christ is a sign that Christ’s death happened and it accomplished the turning away of God’s wrath upon sinners. Secondly, it is a major leap to suggest that what John has taught on the blood of Jesus is equated to the denial of Christ’s Resurrection. That which is a sign demonstrating a sacrifice has taken place is nowhere near the same as saying Jesus “Resurrection” was merely spiritual. If your analogy is true, then you are back where you started your post by rejecting the H&W view of the blood of Christ. You would be saying Christ’s blood has physical properties that makes it divine and unique, set apart from the same blood a man bleeds.

    You ask,
    You’ve got to be kidding. Please explain to me how ‘God knowing EVERYTHING including who will accept His Son and who won’t accept His Son, implies that He had to ‘gain information’ on who would and who would not accept His Son in future?

    God is omniscience, He knows all things because, well, He’s God. That would include all of men’s thoughts and intentions, right? According to your position, to suggest that He elects people based upon their future choices He foresees, clearly implies there were choices of His creatures He was unaware of until they made those choices in an as-of-yet-to-happen future. This view of God also removes the element of grace. God is granting salvation to a person based upon something he or she does, that being, choosing to believe the gospel. Salvation is no longer based upon God granting freely salvation to an undeserving sinner who has no interest in God.

    Does God sit and hand pick people to be saved as each baby is born?

    No, actually the Bible says he chose those people before he laid the foundation of the earth, Ephesians 1:4, Titus 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20. I am desiring to build my theology of salvation from what I find in scripture. How exactly do you explain those passages? I see none of this, He chose those people who believed the gospel when he looked forward into time before the foundation of the world.

    Do you think that He had to ‘gain information’ in order to add prophecy into HIS WRITTEN WORD? for things that have not yet happened, but WILL. Please provide scripture to prove that God had to gain knowledge from somewhere to write in HIS OWN WORDS on future events.

    No. I am not sure where you are going with that question. It’s sort of odd. God knows the future because he decreed the future and all that would come to pass. That is why God can provide detailed prophetic words regarding the birth of Jesus, the events surrounding his death, etc.

    Let’s go to the Bible and find some verses to show how God takes pleasure in destroying the wicked (that He chose/elected to be lost which is the opposite of being chosen/elected to be saved) – as per this stupid stupid stupid horrid doctrine of Predestination

    You have a lot of rabbit trail questions that direct us away from the larger point at hand. That being, if predestination is a stupid and horrid doctrine, you must explain from the exegesis of the various passages that directly speak of predestination, what exactly is it the Bible is saying. What would those passages mean if John Calvin had never lived? Let’s take for example Acts 2:23 which states, Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death The phrase as found in the NKJV as “determined purpose” is from the Greek word where we get our English word, Predestination. In light of your view of predestination, how do you understand this passage? Did God just foresee that Christ would be killed by a confederacy of Jewish leaders and Roman authorities and then elected him to take the place of a savior? Or did God specifically predestine those events to take place? Are you then saying this was a stupid and horrid thing to happen because it was “predestinated?”

    I’ll leave off for now.
    Thanks for the discussion, by the way.

    Fred

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Nah,gosh, this is going to turn into a nightmare of a conversation lol. By that I mean it’s gonna become a hugeeee conversation…

    I will come back to you a bit later on this with detailed short answers. So that I keep my ducks in a row too.

  • Burning Lamp

    Deborah said:

    Does God sit and hand pick people to be saved as each baby is born?

    Fred said:
    No, actually the Bible says he chose those people before he laid the foundation of the earth, Ephesians 1:4, Titus 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20. I am desiring to build my theology of salvation from what I find in scripture. How exactly do you explain those passages? I see none of this, He chose those people who believed the gospel when he looked forward into time before the foundation of the world.

    No Fred, God did NOT choose individuals.
    (In love), having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:5

    Predestination is a manifestation of the love of the Father. As it is God Who chose us in grace, it is the Father Who has predestinated us to the adoption of children. Nowhere in the Bible are people ever predestinated to go to hell, and nowhere are people simply predestinated to go to heaven. Look it up and see. We are chosen in Christ to share His glory for eternity, but predestination is always to some special place of blessing.

    Turn to Romans 8:29: “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

    You see, predestination is not God from eternity saying “This man goes to heaven and this man to hell.” No, but predestination teaches me that when I have believed in Christ, when I have trusted Him as my Savior I may know on the authority of God that it is settled forever that some day I am to become exactly like my Savior. It settles the question of the security of my salvation. Whatever my present unsatisfactory experiences may be, some day I shall be altogether like the One Who has redeemed me. From H.A. Ironside’s “In the Heavenlies”

    Now,Fred,regarding the blood of Christ – this is territory that one must be very careful in addressing. This is the essence of our salvation! Our Savior’s blood was like no other. Your blood or mine can save no one. Here are some comments that might be helpful in this discussion.

    If Jesus had died from drowning or disease or snakebite or any other way that did not shed blood, His death would not have covered our sins. The Law required the shedding of blood. The crucifixtion fulfilled many of the OT prophecies and it was the perfect form of execution to fulfill the shedding of blood. If God had sent Jesus into our present day world He would have been executed by electric chair or lethal injection. That would not have fulfilled the requirements.

    When I SEE THE BLOOD, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt” (Exodus 12:1-13). The blood of the sacrificial lamb had to be APPLIED to the doorpost.

    “In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace” (Ephesians 1:7).

    From the blood of Abel’s slain lamb in Genesis, to the robes of the saints washed in the blood in Revelation, the Word of God centers around the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 9:22, “…without shedding of blood is no remission.” Jesus’ death was just as important as His blood sacrifice, and equally important the burial and resurrection; BUT everything concerning the events of Jesus’ life were leading up to the blood being applied in Heaven. Hebrews 9:24-26 state, “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us…” That is, God the Father. Jesus took His shed blood to Heaven to present unto the Father, by applying it to the Mercy Seat.

    The Bible is clear as can be—the blood of Jesus redeems! “But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are MADE NIGH BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST” (Ephesians 2:13). We are reconciled and brought back close to God By CHRIST’S BLOOD.
    “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased WITH HO OWN BLOOD. (Acts 20:28).

    It is Jesus’ blood that cleanses away the sinner’s sins. “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD” (Revelation 1:5).

    Yes, the death of Christ is important also but it would not have been sufficient by itself to redeem us. The blood had to be shed and APPLIED TO THE MERCY SEAT IN HEAVEN. His death, His burial and His resurrection. These all would have meant NOTHING had Jesus not presented Himself before the Father in Heaven.

  • Burning Lamp

    Deborah, I apologize – some of my comments may be a bit redundant and already covered by you in your responses to Fred. But some things are so important they can’t be repeated enough.

    BTW, thx 4 the migraine fax – worked perfectly. Will let you know when I need a refill. lol

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp

    Nothing anyone says when it comes to explaining the truth becomes redundant. Repeat away :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    About being chosen and about the the Blood of Jesus was written justttttt beaautifully!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Ok first things first.

    Just to clear up this [gain information] confusion….

    I said: There is a big difference between being chosen by God (being selected or handpicked) vs God knowing our futures before we are born therefore He knows who will accept His Son and who wont.

    You said: Yes there is. Being chosen by God unconditionally is biblical, where as God having to gain information, i.e., know who will accept His son and who won’t, is heretical. The first reflects the teaching of Scripture, the second reflects Pelagian, Arian, Socinian concepts witnessed today among groups like the Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other forms of open theism.

    I said: You’ve got to be kidding. Please explain to me how ‘God knowing EVERYTHING including who will accept His Son and who won’t accept His Son, implies that He had to ‘gain information’ on who would and who would not accept His Son in future? Does God sit and hand pick people to be saved as each baby is born? “Oh you little one into the trash you go… oh and you little one, you will make it to heaven.”

    You said: No. I am not sure where you are going with that question. It’s sort of odd. God knows the future because he decreed the future and all that would come to pass. That is why God can provide detailed prophetic words regarding the birth of Jesus, the events surrounding his death, etc.

    Now re-read the questions and answers in order. I never said anything about God having to gain information or even implied it – you thought assumed that by me saying, ‘God knows the future so he will know who will accept His Son or not’ as God having to gain info. So I being confused at your statement asked. How can God who knows EVERYTHING need to gain information from elsewhere….etc etc etc.

    Ok, that solves that problem. So we can go back onto topic.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Predestination.

    God does not forsee, he knows everything already. He knows how the whole world will end, because it’s His will that it will be that way. Does he choose people to be saved and others to go to hell? No, God has given us the choice to pick a side and because God knows everything He knows who will accept Him and who wont. Even the cherubs who worship God at his throne day in and day out, forever and ever are not forces, they do it because the want too. Just like God has given us the free will to either worship Him or follow Satan. God would have it that none go to hell.

    So to say that God elects who will be saved and go to hell is a ghastly thought.

    Now I am going to go back to my last questions to you…..

    John Calvin said: “Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children” (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2226)

    Let’s go to the Bible and find some verses to see if God takes pleasure in destroying the wicked (that He chose/elected to be lost which is the opposite of being chosen/elected to be saved)

    Ezekiel 18:32 ‘For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,’ declares the Lord God. ‘Therefore, repent and live.’

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

    Is God lying or is John Calvin lying?

    Tell me:

    1) How do you know you are chosen? Because you are saved?
    2) Or was it when you were saved, only then did you realise that you were chosen?
    3) Or because you believe you are chosen you are therefore saved?

    Let’s add another question:

    1) What difference does it make to your life knowing that you are saved or chosen to be saved?

    Now Calvinism would agree that Jesus Christ came to save those who are chosen (predestined by God before birth). Yet the Bible says:

    Luke 19:10: ‘For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.’

    Is God lying, or is John Calvin lying?

  • BL writes,
    No Fred, God did NOT choose individuals.
    (In love), having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:5

    Ummm, if I am not mistaken, “us” is a personal pronoun.

    Deborah writes,
    God does not forsee, he knows everything already. He knows how the whole world will end, because it’s His will that it will be that way. Does he choose people to be saved and others to go to hell? No, God has given us the choice to pick a side and because God knows everything He knows who will accept Him and who wont. Even the cherubs who worship God at his throne day in and day out, forever and ever are not forces, they do it because the want too. Just like God has given us the free will to either worship Him or follow Satan. God would have it that none go to hell.

    So how does God know of those who will choose him? You seem to want to throw into the mix the Arminian view of free will, but as open theists, the more consistent Arminians, argue, even if God knew ahead of time who will choose Him those individuals had no other choice BUT to choose Him or God is made a liar. Now before you answer, do you see the dilemma with your thinking? I could challenge your proposition this way: Could those individuals God see choose him do anything other than choose to believe? In other words, could they then choose NOT to believe after God saw them? If they could not, then how is that not predestining individuals to salvation?

    Deborah writes,
    Let’s go to the Bible and find some verses to see if God takes pleasure in destroying the wicked (that He chose/elected to be lost which is the opposite of being chosen/elected to be saved)

    Well, let’s go to the Bible and find some verse to see how God does take pleasure in destroying the wicked,

    Psalm 5:4-6
    4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
    5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
    6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

    Jeremiah 48:38
    38 A general lamentation On all the housetops of Moab, And in its streets; For I have broken Moab like a vessel in which is no pleasure,” says the LORD. …

    Jeremiah 22:24-30
    24 ” As I live,” says the LORD, “though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet on My right hand, yet I would pluck you off;
    25 “and I will give you into the hand of those who seek your life, and into the hand of those whose face you fear — the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and the hand of the Chaldeans.
    26 “So I will cast you out, and your mother who bore you, into another country where you were not born; and there you shall die.
    27 “But to the land to which they desire to return, there they shall not return.
    28 “Is this man Coniah a despised, broken idol — A vessel in which is no pleasure? Why are they cast out, he and his descendants, And cast into a land which they do not know?
    29 O earth, earth, earth, Hear the word of the LORD!
    30 Thus says the LORD: ‘Write this man down as childless, A man who shall not prosper in his days; For none of his descendants shall prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling anymore in Judah.’ ”

    Joshua 11:20
    For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

    So both God and John Calvin are telling the truth.

    1) How do you know you are chosen? Because you are saved?

    Because I am saved and the Bible tells me.

    2) Or was it when you were saved, only then did you realise that you were chosen?

    I learned I was chosen when I read the scriptures after I was saved. The reason for my salvation, if this is what you are asking, is that I was chosen from eternity past.

    3) Or because you believe you are chosen you are therefore saved?

    I didn’t really know anything about election until maybe 2 or 3 years after I was a Christian. I chaffed against the doctrine much in the same way you and your friend are.

    4) What difference does it make to your life knowing that you are saved or chosen to be saved?

    It makes me a consistent, Bible believing Christian.

    Then,
    Now Calvinism would agree that Jesus Christ came to save those who are chosen (predestined by God before birth).

    Actually, historic Calvinism teaches that Jesus Christ came to seek and save the lost, a category out which the chosen were saved.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Nah, dude you are twisting my thinking here. You agree that God knows EVERYTHING (past, present, future) but then you ask me; “So how does God know of those who will choose him?” You can’t be serious right?

    I asked: 4) What difference does it make to your life knowing that you are saved or chosen to be saved?

    You said: It makes me a consistent, Bible believing Christian.

    That makes no sense. What makes you a consistent bible believing Christian? Just being saved or being chosen to be saved?
    The reason I am asking this is. I do not believe in predestination. However I am saved, born again – this I know. Does this now make me an in-consistent bible believing Christian?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Let’s go to the Bible and find some verses to see if God takes pleasure in destroying the wicked (that He chose/elected to be lost which is the opposite of being chosen/elected to be saved)

    Well, let’s go to the Bible and find some verse to see how God does take pleasure in destroying the wicked,

    Psalm 5:4-6
    4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
    5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
    6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

    You again twist what I am saying. There is a difference between God taking NO pleasure in destroying the wicked vs God’s wrath on those who are wicked beyond wicked and go out of their way to disobey Him.

    My verses I quoted were based on Calvin’s blatant twisting of scripture to appease his conscience that he was chosen by God and therefore could judge people and have them sentenced to death because he thought they were reprobates. Would you do such a thing???

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Rom. 8:29 The verse clearly states that the object of “foreknew” is “those who love him”, not those he predestined. And what God predestined is that such people would be conformed to the image of Jesus, not that certain elect people would be saved.

  • Alan Heron

    Hello Deborah, (and others here), I want to introduce myself to you all.

    I have only recently come across this website and I wanted to say I have been saddened, challenged, and blessed by what I have read here, mostly by the comments and replies, along with heartfelt pleas for help in who, what, where, why, and how, to stay on the narrow way that the majority of ‘Christians’ have trouble believing in these days.

    I can certainly identify with the tears that Deborah has spoken of, it can quite literally leave you gasping for breath when you see the deception that has been perpetrated against you by preachers, teachers, and pastors that you have held in high regard.
    I read your rules and what you say there about casting your beliefs in stone sounds pretty good to me. As a result of some searingly painful events in my life recently, I determined to be as transparent as I can be, to fellow Christians. It makes life much easier, if you can all look right into the cupboard and see there are no skeletons. ;-)

    I was saved about 46 years ago, at the age of 7 one night in a little Baptist church. I have had a very up and down sort of life and have had to learn some very painful lessons.
    I have had to unlearn a lot too.
    I have spent the last 3 years learning about the various tentacles of deception that extend throughout the Church.
    Some times I have cried at the betrayal by some teacher or author who has been a blessing and sometimes I have raged at the evil that I have learned of.
    Sometimes I have cried for friends who are deceived and don’t, or won’t, see it.

    May God Bless you all,
    Shalom,
    Alan.

  • Don’t have much time right now because I have to prepare for two major teaching times this up coming week:

    At the very beginning of our exchange you, you responded to me by writing on May 10th,

    There is a big difference between being chosen by God (being selected or handpicked) vs God knowing our futures before we are born therefore He knows who will accept His Son and who wont.

    I am simply taking this as your statement as to how you believe predestination to be working. That is, God knows our futures before we are born and therefore knows who will accept His son and who will not. This is the standard, Arminian response to the concept of predestination. Is this your view or not?

    I took it that you believe this standard view. And so I am merely pointing out to you that if you believe God chooses men to be saved or predestinates them to be saved, based upon what He sees in the future, I am telling you that what you are saying is that God HAS to gain information about that person that was previously outside His knowledge. Put another way, God looks into the future of a “as yet to happen world,” to see who chooses to believe the gospel.

    You state that you do not believe in predestination, but the Bible teaches predestination at many places. I mentioned Acts 2:22,23 as one clear example. If you don’t believe in predestination, how on earth do you as a Christian understand these passages where the word is used?

    Probably talk at you next Monday.

  • Sam

    First off, please ignore me if this shakes you up too much.

    I claim the very core beliefs of the gospel require predestination.

    Note what the apostles say here (I chose ESV, but some translations are stronger for my point I think):
    Acts 4:27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

    We know that it was God’s will for Jesus to die for our sins. But, Jesus did not commit suicide. There were the roles of Herod and Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles, and the Jews. Was Jesus’ death accidental? Or did God bet that people would kill Him and then send Him at the right timing reacting to what man will do? Is God a reactor to us, and therefore not sovereign at all?
    How in the world then does Jesus make this claim? (verse 18):
    John 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

    Since we are in John 10, what about this verse:
    John10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
    And, I cannot comprehend how to deal with Romans 8:30 or Romans 9 especially from verse 11 on without predestination.

    But, my point is not to argue. My two points are this:
    The Bible clearly has things about predestination and free will. Why are there all these discussions on what they “really” mean and how the ideas conflict and all. The Bible writes don’t see a conflict here. And especially, why do we think we understand God’s sovereignty so well? Remember what God says to Job near the end of the book? How well do we really understand God’s incommunicable attributes? Do we really understand divine things so easily? Is our understanding of sovereign kings really at par with God’s sovereignty? The Bible says they co-exist. Just take it. Proverbs 3:5-7. And coming from Job again, can we really understand the creator of the universe? If we can’t even explain how to make a computer from a hunk of metal, how in the world will we even imagine of fully understanding Him?

    Second, can we be careful of indicting others? If we are not careful, we can be hindering the gospel. Also, I think there is a great deal of pride we can get from claiming to be more correct than a big name like MacArthur’s. So, I think there is danger here. But, my largest concern here is for the new believers and non-believers.

    (And, if someone says, oh but I thought you were reformed… Well, in the least, even if they are eventually saved this is probably not glorifying God in front of them. Consider Job’s friends… we should proceed cautiously.)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    >> This is the standard, Arminian response to the concept of predestination. Is this your view or not?

    No this is not std Armenian response. I believe in eternal security and the sovereignty of God. However, I believe that God (out of His sovereignty) created us with a complete free will. This free will gives us the true ability to accept or reject God. This choice is not a preprogrammed choice, but rather it is a choice made from a truly free heart. I have no idea why Calvinists think that if one is not Calvinist then oh they MUST BE Armenienists. Really…

    Summary:
    Calvinists believe that God does not know everything (therefore not omniscient) hence He has to chose His followers in advance.
    You believe that I believe that God has to look into the future to see who will accept His Son and who wont – whereas I do not believe this – God is omniscient and knows everything already and what He has already spoken will be fulfilled.

    Acts 3:18 18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

    This is eternity past (God announced beforehand), eternity present (spoken by the OT prophets as prophecy) and eternity future (God sending His Son to save mankind but only those who ACCEPT His sacrifice) which everything being fulfilled because God knows everything, and DECREED would happen before He even created the world.

    I really dunno why I am having such a hard time explaining this… it’s simple dude.

    This is NOT predestination – this is GOD KNOWING EVERYTHING, in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING, WHAT HE SPEAKS WILL COMES TO PASS and WILL BE FULFILLED.

    But you know what? This is not really the crux of the matter here. This is really about men puffing themselves up, thinking they are elect by twisting scripture and making God love them no matter what they do! Calvinism forces God to do what they want and not the other way around.

    Tell me, what part does the Holy Spirit play in your life? Do you have conviction of sin in your life? Do you repent if you sin? If so, why bother?

    >> I am telling you that what you are saying is that God HAS to gain information about that person that was previously outside His knowledge. Put another way, God looks into the future of a “as yet to happen world,” to see who chooses to believe the gospel

    NO FRED. He does not have to gain information because HE KNOWS EVERYTHING ALREADY. My goodness what part of “GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING ALREADY” are you battling to understand – HE ALREADY KNOWS WHO WILL ACCEPT HIS SON, not because He chose them, but because He KNOWS EVERYTHING ALREADY – there is no fortune telling involved in what I am saying. God is not a fortune teller – I AM NOT IMPLYING THIS so stop telling me that I am. You however are implying that God does not know everything so He has to choose his followers before they are born.

    >> You state that you do not believe in predestination, but the Bible teaches predestination at many places. I mentioned Acts 2:22,23 as one clear example. If you don’t believe in predestination, how on earth do you as a Christian understand these passages where the word is used?

    So I am not a bible-believing Christian and possibly a reprobate? But how would you ever know if I am chosen or not? Apparently John Calvin could…therefore he could pass judgement on men on earth – apparently he could see into the future.

    I asked you if you agree that it is ok that John Calvin had people sentenced to death because he believed he was chosen and others weren’t because they disagreed with him? Is that a fruit of the Holy Spirit? Or did you not know this about Calvin? And this is a bit of a shock to you, hence you are not answering me.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Let’s go look at Acts 2:22-23

    Acts 2:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)

    22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know–
    23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    Acts 2:22-23 (King James Version)

    22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Who is the audience here? Israel?

    Jews are God’s chosen people…right? Gentiles are saved by Grace… right?

    Do you believe in Amillenialism?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    I am not going to be able to reply from Monday till maybe Thursday. So it’s not that I am not answering you, it’s cos I can’t during that time. I will however try be online, but can’t guarantee it.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sam

    >> We know that it was God’s will for Jesus to die for our sins. But, Jesus did not commit suicide. There were the roles of Herod and Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles, and the Jews. Was Jesus’ death accidental? Or did God bet that people would kill Him and then send Him at the right timing reacting to what man will do? Is God a reactor to us, and therefore not sovereign at all?

    I am sorry, but what has what you have said got to do with anything? Who on this topic or anywhere implied that Jesus committed suicide, or that God placed bets. Like… what the? So I am just going to ignore that statement… cos that’s just ridiculous.

    >> If we are not careful, we can be hindering the gospel

    So man can hinder the Gospel? Really? How powerful man must be…

    >> Also, I think there is a great deal of pride we can get from claiming to be more correct than a big name like MacArthur’s.

    I am so sorry to hear that John MacArthur is more prideful and more correct than you. Does John MacArthur teach people the truth and nothing but the truth or the Holy Spirit that abides in a born again Christian teach us the truth, guide, council, and lead us into the truth?

    >> But, my largest concern here is for the new believers and non-believers. (And, if someone says, oh but I thought you were reformed… Well, in the least, even if they are eventually saved this is probably not glorifying God in front of them.

    Oh well, then you better stop commenting eh, I mean with silly remarks as the one above. Unbelievers are not stupid. In fact most of them use their brains more often than supposed Christians

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Canons of Dort

    CHAPTER 1: Divine Election and Predestination

    Article 7: Before the foundation of the world … [God] chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race. … Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others.

    Article 8: This election is not of many kinds; it is one and the same election for all who were to be saved in the Old and the New Testament.

    Article 9: Election is not based on foreseen faith. This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen.

    Article 10: But the cause of this undeserved election … does not involve his choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation.

    Article 11: … neither can his chosen ones be cast off, nor their number reduced.

    Article 12: The Assurance of Election. … Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word– such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

    Article 16: Those who do not yet actively experience within themselves a living faith in Christ or an assured confidence of heart, peace of conscience, … such people ought not to be alarmed at the mention of reprobation, nor to count themselves among the reprobate; rather they ought to continue diligently in the use of the means, to desire fervently a time of more abundant grace, and to wait for it in reverence and humility.

    On the other hand, those who seriously desire to turn to God, to be pleasing to him alone, and to be delivered from the body of death, but are not yet able to make such progress along the way of godliness and faith as they would like–such people ought much less to stand in fear of the teaching concerning reprobation, since our merciful God has promised that he will not snuff out a smoldering wick and that he will not break a bruised reed.

    Article 17: The Salvation of the Infants of Believers. … children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy.

    See here for full Canon: http://www.biblehelp.org/dort.htm

  • Alan Heron

    Hey Fred, and others that are debating the whole ‘predestination’ deal. I am not by a long chalk an adequate Bible scholar, but I think I may be able to inject some clarity to this discussion. I hope.
    If you disagree, I stand ready for the executioner! ;-)
    The problem seems to be that you are thinking in terms of God having to LOOK into the FUTURE, to see who will choose to believe in Jesus.
    God doesn’t have to do anything of the kind, because He is not bound by the limits of TIME as we are. He is the Eternal “I AM”.
    I hesitate to quote C S Lewis here (because he was NOT a true Christian, going by his own statements), but I think he at least got this right when he said something like;

    “God doesn’t look down the corridor of time to see if a person will turn to Him at some point in the ‘FUTURE”, but SEES that person doing so in His eternal ‘NOW’.”

    Yes, I have paraphrased it and probably not very well, but you should be able to grasp the point okay that while for us there is a past, present, and future, God is outside of the stream of TIME and that’s why in John 8:58, Jesus said; ” Before Abraham was, I AM.”
    It’s not a typo, or bad grammar that proves Jesus was not very well educated (Being a tradesman an’ all), no, He said it like that because it’s the only way to express His relationship with TIME truthfully.
    If He had said; “…I WAS.”, it would have conveyed a different relationship to TIME, but Jesus deliberately used a PRESENT tense to describe His existence in relationship to someone who was, as far as the audience was concerned, a person from the pages of history, or the PAST.
    Put another way; Relative to the hearers, Abraham WAS.
    Relative to Abraham, Jesus IS.
    More properly, from Abraham’s point of view, Jesus ‘WOULD BE’, one day in Abe’s future, but from Jesus’ point of view, He ‘IS’; at the same time as Abraham, before Abraham, and after Abraham.

    The same principle holds in the other direction; As far as we are concerned, the second coming is still future. As far as God is concerned, it IS.

    In the same way that in Revelation, Jesus is called; “… the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”, from God’s point of view, the end of the world has been and gone already.

    It’s hard to state without falling into the trap of ascribing to God a past, present, and future, because we can’t comprehend the non-existence of TIME, so we don’t really have the vocabulary to describe it.

    Is it arrogant to talk like this about God? I don’t think so. He has given us the information we need in His Word and He requires us to seek for the Truth, diligently. That means making an effort folks. Not so we can be saved, but so we can grow in our knowledge and understanding of Him. It’s a measure of how much we love the Truth, how diligently we seek it and we all know (or should) what happens to those who “…loved not the truth…”, don’t we?

    The problem we are dealing with is a little like the problem that faced Ann Sullivan, the woman who took on the challenge of teaching a 7 year old Helen Keller to read and write and speak, even though she was profoundly deaf and totally blind. How do you explain the colour ‘green’ to such a person? The reality is that she probably never really understood the word as we do, but she didn’t let it hold her from gaining a degree (at least one) and learning several languages and writing several books.
    I believe we are very much like Helen Keller when it comes to our understanding of God, but we can use what knowledge He has given us and strive to understand it more deeply and I believe the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth as we do so. One day, we will see clearly, but until then, let’s not ever assume that we have figured it all out and have nothing left to learn about any subject.
    Some things in God’s Word are very hard to understand and I think this subject is one of them, but please let’s not just accept Calvinism, or Arminianism, or any other ‘pat answers’, but let’s rather accept that there are somethings we won’t totally understand until He comes to take us home.

    To those of you who may wish to throw something at me, can you please make it something soft, like rotten tomatoes, or such? I bruise easily. ;-)

    God Bless you all,
    Shalom,
    Alan.

    PS: If you wonder about ‘Shalom’, I fellowship with some beautiful Messianic Jews occasionally and it has become a habitual, but also heartfelt, expression of blessing for those to whom it is addressed.

  • Valerie

    Alan,
    Thanks for your post. It was very refreshing and you seem to have a very gentle spirit.

  • Burning Lamp

    Alan, I think this echoes much of what we have said here, just put a little differently. Of course God knows the end from the beginning and He is the great I AM, not the I Was or Will be.

    When Christ died for ALL he took the sins of the WHOLE WORLD upon Himself and paid the penalty for every sin committed, past, present and future.

    Unless I missed something it seems you are preaching to the choir. The disagreement with Calvinism would be that He died for all, not some selected/elected few as they teach.

    Just a little aside exhortation – be very careful with the Messianic Fellowship. Many pitfalls there. Don’t think Jesus ever meant to separate his sheep into two herds. The Bible says we are all one, Jew same as Greek. Yes, make the connection on how He fulfilled the Law, but then move on into the newfound freedom and leave the past in the past. Isn’t that biblical? I have seen too many folks in Messianic groups go off the track. If you are going to throw anything at me, I prefer marshmallows.

  • The verse clearly states that the object of “foreknew” is “those who love him”, not those he predestined. And what God predestined is that such people would be conformed to the image of Jesus, not that certain elect people would be saved.

    I don’t see how you get make that conclusion from the exegesis of Romans 8:29. I am guessing you think men love God first or make a choice for God and then they are predestined? How can a saved person NOT be conformed to the image of Christ? You can’t really have one with out their other, right?

    No this is not std Armenian response.

    Just so we are clear, Armenians are a people group over in Turkey and the Black Sea region. Arminians are individuals who follow the theology of Jacob Arminius.

    I believe in eternal security and the sovereignty of God. However, I believe that God (out of His sovereignty) created us with a complete free will. This free will gives us the true ability to accept or reject God. This choice is not a preprogrammed choice, but rather it is a choice made from a truly free heart. I have no idea why Calvinists think that if one is not Calvinist then oh they MUST BE Armenienists. Really…

    Well, Calvinists believe what they believe because the Bible is rather clear that men do not operate from a “truly free heart.” We make free choices, in that humanity makes choices freely, but it is according to our nature, which the Bible repeatedly says is in bondage to sinfulness. In other words, I make the free choice to be a nice philanthropist or a thief. A loving husband and father or a pornographer.
    Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Slavery implies a condition, that being, we were slaves to our sin. We were delivered (passive tense) to be slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

    Back to the point of predestination. If predestination is God looking beforehand as to what decision a person will make for Christ in the future, can that person freely change his mind at a later point? Why or why not? If they can, was God mistaken as to his predestination based upon what he knew beforehand? If no, how can the person’s decision be considered “truly free?”

    Calvinists believe that God does not know everything (therefore not omniscient) hence He has to chose His followers in advance.

    Not sure where you are getting that from.

    You believe that I believe that God has to look into the future to see who will accept His Son and who wont – whereas I do not believe this – God is omniscient and knows everything already and what He has already spoken will be fulfilled.

    Okay, then how is a person truly free to make a decision about salvation? If God is omniscient and knows everything already, would knowing about the future free decision of a person for Christ “predestinate” that person making that choice? Thus, it is no longer a truly free choice? Right or Wrong?

    This is eternity past (God announced beforehand), eternity present (spoken by the OT prophets as prophecy) and eternity future (God sending His Son to save mankind but only those who ACCEPT His sacrifice) which everything being fulfilled because God knows everything, and DECREED would happen before He even created the world.

    Okay, how exactly did God know of “only those who ACCEPT His sacrifice?” Did he have to gather that information (which means he is no longer omniscient)? Or did he decree them to make that such a decision, which comes back around to he predestinated a person’s salvation? I don’t mean to repeat myself, but you don’t seem to be following the logic of your own position?

    This is NOT predestination – this is GOD KNOWING EVERYTHING, in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING, WHAT HE SPEAKS WILL COMES TO PASS and WILL BE FULFILLED.

    Alright, but again, if God knows everything, is in control of everything, and what He speaks comes to pass and will be fulfilled (all of which I affirm whole heartedly), how then can you say a person is truly free in his or her decisions? The person would have no other choice BUT to choose the gospel or God is made a liar? Or, God predestinated the person’s salvation based upon His free grace just as the Bible states.

    But you know what? This is not really the crux of the matter here. This is really about men puffing themselves up, thinking they are elect by twisting scripture and making God love them no matter what they do! Calvinism forces God to do what they want and not the other way around.

    That is a gross inaccuracy and really a smear and you would do yourself well in future discussions with others to disabuse yourself of such groundless accusations.

    Jews are God’s chosen people…right? Will be in the future, yes.
    Gentiles are saved by Grace… right? Yes. So are Jews by the way.
    Do you believe in Amillenialism? No. I have an entire blog dedicated to defending biblical premillennialism (http://premillennialism.wordpress.com).

  • BL states,
    When Christ died for ALL he took the sins of the WHOLE WORLD upon Himself and paid the penalty for every sin committed, past, present and future.

    Unless I missed something it seems you are preaching to the choir. The disagreement with Calvinism would be that He died for all, not some selected/elected few as they teach.

    A bit of a push back: Why then do not ALL people in the WHOLE WORLD have eternal life? Was Christ’s death sufficient to save them? Now of course, I imagine you will appeal to the notion that they have to choose for themselves, but then if that is the case, salvation is no longer solely upon God’s grace alone, but has become a synergistic cooperative work of God providing the means of salvation and then men being compelled in some way or another to actuate and activate the merits of salvation to complete the work God began on their behalf. That’s not grace and your right back where the Reformation parted ways with Rome.

  • Alan Heron

    Valerie, Thankyou for your greeting and encouragement! ;-)
    I try to be gracious in what I say or write, while remaining true to the Word of God and contending for the faith. I used to be very bombastic and arrogant in younger days, particularly when dealing with those poor second class Christians who had reservations about the ‘Toronto blessing’, or any of the things that I had grown up KNOWING were the work of the Holy Spirit.
    GAG! (Loud raspberries and other sounds of ridicule)
    I cringe just thinking about what an ignoramus I was!
    God has been gracious to me and removed the scales from my eyes.
    My Lord has taught me much, but it has cost me great pain, which I will tell you of if you ask, but I don’t want to grandstand here, just try to be a blessing.

    Shalom,
    Alan.

  • Alan Heron

    Burning Lamp
    Yes, I know it’s a little bit like preaching to the choir for those such as yourself and Deborah and others, but Fred and a couple who keep saying things about God having to look up some information in the future obviously need singing lessons. I can’t understand how they can say such anthropomorphic things about the great I AM. (Sorry, I’m not showing off, just trying to be economical with my words)
    I mean, what do they think, that He goes and gets out His special “Foreknowledge glasses” and then peers off down the corridors of time to determine what will be one day?
    If what they say about us not having free will were true, there would never have been a tree for Adam & Eve to eat from and all their descendants (us) would’ve been all honkey dory with God and Jesus wouldn’t have needed to die on Calvary. I mean, all the suffering and all would be absolutely needless and would imply that God was just being sadistic. What a blasphemous concept! Are they quite mad?
    (Rhetorical question)

    Okay, In my post above there is a hint of where I’m at regarding carefulness regarding the Truth, but I thankyou for the gentle warning. No throwing required at all, I appreciate the care you showed.
    However, if it’s not too much off topic, I would like to address a couple of things about your exhortation. I assure you they are written in a very soft voice, if you get my drift. ;-)

    1st:- I agree Jesus never intended to separate His flock into two herds, but that doesn’t mean that there is no difference whatsoever between Jew and Gentile believers. Before you get out marshmallow missiles, let me clarify. Galations 3:28 Says; “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”.
    Lots of people quote this verse to support their contention that there is some kind of inherent danger in calling a Jewish believer a Messianic Jew (or indeed; a Jewish believer). I understand the reason, because Paul has just written the whole letter to speak out against the heresy you allude to. (I have ex friends who have succumbed to that very thing to the point of denying Christ. It broke my heart to hear it.)
    If you are talking about our equality as Christians, redeemed people, believers, saints, etc, you are quite right, that’s exactly what this verse means. As far as SALVATION is concerned, we’re all equal.
    BUT, it does NOT mean that is now NO difference between Jews and Gentiles just because they are saved. That is plain, because it also talks about male and female in the same verse and I’m sure not going to buy the idea that the differences between males and females ALL disappear when they become Christians, which would be the only consistent way to read it if we are to do away with ALL differences between Jews and Gentiles who believe. Males are still male and females are still female after salvation. At least I hope so! Think what the gay lobby could do with this verse if it weren’t so! (Only half joking here, I’m sure some Campolo-ite will tumble to it eventually).
    So, Males stay males, females stay females, Jews stay Jews, Greeks (Gentiles) stay Greeks, but all are saved equally and God is no respecter of any of them. No logical inconsistency there.
    Looking at Romans 11:16-24, Paul talks about natural branches (Jews) and wild branches (Gentiles). SOME of the natural branches have been broken off THEIR olive tree and some wild branches have been grafted in (against the usual order of things in grafting too!). Some natural branches will be grafted back in (Jewish Christians today), but they are still called natural branches and we are still called wild branches. We are equal though in that we are all part of the same tree and nourished by the same root.

    2nd:- The law has been fulfilled, of course and any who try and bring others back under the bondage of the law are condemned in many places by Paul and the writer of Hebrews (If that wasn’t him too).
    You are right that we are free from the bondage of the Law, but if a Jew wishes to refrain from eating pork (for example), he is free to do so as long as he doesn’t claim to be sanctified by so doing.
    As soon as he attaches some spiritual significance to it, he is returning to the bondage of the Law and despising the cross, but if he is just exercising his freedom in the Lord, there’s no problem.
    Some Gentile Christians try and say that if he refrains from eating pork, he’s sinning and he should eat pork as a mark of his freedom from the Law, but they are in fact bringing him under another Law, one of their own making. Freedom is freedom, bondage is bondage.

    3rd:- Some say that Jewish Christians shouldn’t have their sons circumcised for the same reason as above; that is going back under the Law, but that’s not so, because circumcision was and still is a sign of the Abrahamic covenant, which predates and supersedes the Mosaic covenant. This covenant was declared by God to be an everlasting covenant, as were the Davidic, land, and New covenants, while the Mosaic covenant was only a temporary covenant. This is why Paul could and did circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:3, without going against his own teachings against Judaizers.

    Lastly, let me say that I have learned through very painful disciplining from the Lord, to test EVERYTHING against His Word. Without exception. Starting with the thoughts and desires of my heart and going on through all preaching, teaching, worship, EVERYTHING. That said, i will say the following about these dear Jewish Chrsitians; They have a concept of the fear of the Lord that I have rarely found anywhere else and at the same time, they have a grasp of the freedom we all have in Christ that is also rare in my experience. Am I prepared to drop my guard then? Absolutely not! (EVERYTHING remember?)
    Another thing I enjoy about worshipping there is the music, or more correctly, the songs they sing, which are usually sung in both Hebrew and English and are a VAST improvement over most of the contemptible (sorry) contemporary ‘worship’ songs I have had to endure in recent years.
    As my daughters say, they could be addressing a boyfriend or girlfriend, they are so devoid of anything that might identify them as songs sung in praise of the Almighty God, the King of Kings, Jesus Christ the Lord.
    They also don’t repeat the same verse over and over and over and over and over and overandoveranoveranver… You get the idea!
    WHO? ME? SATIRICAL? NOOOO! NEVER! I wouldn’t do that! Much. ;-)
    Lastly, but most certainly not least, the preaching there is absolutely Biblically solid teaching from the Word of God. Even better than my regular Church I go to on Sunday (Beit HaMashiach-House of the Messiah- meet on Saturday y’see).
    May God richly bless you in Jesus’ name,
    Alan.

  • Burlning Lamp

    Dear Brother Alan,

    Thank you for your thoughtful and gracious response. I am off on an evangelistic mission in the early a.m. for 10 days and will be away from my computer so I can’t spare the time right now to do justice to your comments. I will respond upon my return after I recoup from the rigors of the field.

    However, if I may can I give you a morsel to chew upon here – Sabbath worship. That bothers me about Messianic Fellowships. True some churches have worship services on Saturday night and Sunday and Wednesday and even Thursday. Sabbatarianism is a slippery slope and I don’t find biblical justification for it. Isn’t that reverting to the Law? Just asking. No mrashmellow missles or otherwise coming from here – if I ever come across as harsh or with a know-it-all attitude, I invite correction.

    Grace and pease!

  • Alan Heron

    Thanks Burning Lamp,

    I hear you, although we must be careful with all these things, that we don’t bring people under the bondage of NOT doing things so as to prove that they’re free from bondage. ;-)
    Paul states quite categorically in Romans 14, that we’re not to judge people according to which day of the week they worship on, or whether they abstain from certain foods. As long as they are not making it a REQUIREMENT for salvation and/or sanctification, there is no Biblical injunction against it.
    In Acts 20, when Paul is preaching on the first day of the week, it says that he preached until midnight. (v.7) We tend to forget that Jews reckon the days start as sundown, not sunrise as our reckoning is. So here, we have Paul starting to preach at the beginning of the first day of the week, just after sunset and continuing to preach until midnight. So that would be Saturday night, yes? (lots of ironic grinning here)
    So, now where do we begin to lay down the law to these people we think might be Judaizers who are trying to reinstate the Sabbath? May they use the Hebrew; evening and morning= one day? and therefore count sunset Saturday as the beginning of the first day of the week, or are we going to be really pedantic and insist that they must now measure days in the good old anglo saxon way; midnight to midnight? Just to be sure that they’re not trying to subvert our freedom from the Law?
    Sorry, I’m trying to be gently sarcastic, which doesn’t really translate well in writing, please don’t take offense at my clumsy attempt at keeping this discussion lighthearted, yet focused on the Truth of God’s Word. (Big smiles)

    Paul was almost ruthless in his preaching and teaching against becoming even minutely obliged to keeping any part of the Law. He also stressed our absolute freedom in Christ.
    So, as I said before, the clear teaching of scripture is that as long as we don’t make the day a salvation/sanctification issue, which would be ‘works’, there is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1)
    Several years ago, when I was still quite deceived in many areas, we sent our two girls to an Adventist school, so as to get a ‘Christian’ education. I have asked and gotten their forgiveness, right after repenting and asking for God’s forgiveness. During those years, I had many very lively discussions with legalistic people in that cult. God taught me to recognize legalism and many ways that people become blind to the particular legalism they have been seduced by. That’s how I came to realise just how far from the Truth these people are.
    However, I have had other people tell me that we MUST NOT worship on Saturday, because that is coming under the Law. But “MUST NOT” is also bondage, not freedom, just a different kind.
    If we were talking about the blood of Christ, I believe that anyone devaluing it is anathema and we are forbidden by 2 John v.10-11 from even wishing them God’s blessing. When it comes to that, or the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, or the virgin birth, or the Deity of Jesus Christ, or His Lordship, there is clearly no room for any kind of blurring of lines. On the subject of which day we should worship on, or whether we should avoid worshipping on a particular day, the Bible itself gives us the freedom to decide. It does not give us the freedom to mandate anything in relation to days, except to forbid us making it an issue of justification.
    Whenever we say that ‘this’, or ‘that’, is the formula for guarding against legalism, we are in the most danger of falling into legalism ourselves, which is why I am inclined to be argumentative about this.

    The issue of the Jews, and/or Israel and their relationship to God is one of the most dangerous areas for us, because there are so many deceptions and heretical beliefs that lurk all around this subject, waiting to snare people who are pro-Jews/Israel, as well as those who believe the opposing views, with all the permutations possible in between thrown in to the mix.
    It’s a little bit like the discernment ministries out there, we dare not just say; “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” and accept people just on the basis of how much of what they say is good and agrees with what we know and believe.
    We have to test everything by the what the Word really says, not what we think it says based on our mindset. It’s when we read God’s Word, we must be humble enough to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us what He wants us to learn, not what will help us win the particular debate we have staked our reputation on. :-) :-) :-)

    I relate the following only so you understand how intensely I am committed to seeking and loving the Truth.

    I am taking a crash course in humility at this stage in my life, which is crushingly painful, but I praise God for His loving discipline and the Holy Spirit’s guidance and comfort.
    My wife of 30 years wants a divorce and is living with another man in the house we shared. She has been deceived by old church friends into thinking that she can maintain a relationship with Jesus and that we can still be friends in-spite of what she is doing. I apparently have a ‘religious spirit’ and I take the Bible too literally. Truth be told, I failed to love her as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, so I accept my responsibility here, while at the same time not agreeing that my wife is without sin. By the grace of God I can say I forgive her and don’t condemn her, but she needs to “go and sin no more”. This is between her and God now. I pray she will come back to the Lord, no matter what else happens. It is in God’s hands.
    For me, I will follow the Lord.

    For the record, you don’t come across as harsh or know it all, but I will humbly offer correction, in the fear of the Lord, in Jesus’ name and ask that you will do the same for me, as needed.
    All God’s love and grace to you. I pray God’s blessing on your mission and that the Holy Spirit will add many to the Church as you preach the Gospel.
    Shalom,
    Alan.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    >> No this is not std Armenian response.

    Just so we are clear, Armenians are a people group over in Turkey and the Black Sea region. Arminians are individuals who follow the theology of Jacob Arminius.

    Just so we are clear… John Calvin was still part of the Roman Catholic church. If you are going to insult me like this then just go away ok? great.

    As for the rest of your comments. Alan explained it well. Go read what he said. If you can’t grasp who God is at any give time then clearly you have a very narrow view of who GOD IS.

    Right, this conversation is over. My view on the the horridness of predestination has been explained.

  • Alan writes:
    I mean, what do they think, that He goes and gets out His special “Foreknowledge glasses” and then peers off down the corridors of time to determine what will be one day?

    So Alan, define for me what you mean by “foreknowledge?” This is a biblical concept, correct? While you are at it, how would you define predestination? Another biblical concept.

    Deborah writes:
    Just so we are clear… John Calvin was still part of the Roman Catholic church. If you are going to insult me like this then just go away ok? great.

    I meant no insult at all. Sorry you took it that way. I am just trying to be concise here.

    Again, pretend that John Calvin never existed, what do those theological terms mean to you? Predestination, foreknowledge, election? They are present in the text of scripture, you have to grapple with them and the theological implications of what you say you believe about man’s autonomy of will and God’s sovereignty as God; and I am sorry, no one here has really done this. Perhaps you can declare victory if you like, but you’re deceiving yourself.

    Fred

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Let’s just leave it that you are Chosen/Elect/Superior and I am a Reprobate. Now that it’s been settled, I can carry on living my life guided by the Holy Spirit as I am a born again Christian saved by Grace.

  • Elmarie A

    Fred Butler

    Interesting article:

    Only a excerp pasted from your Blog:

    Grace is not doing this stuff, Bob. You are crying booger bears when none exist. As I have stated at the outset of this debate, both the Guild and the Foundry are singles groups. By definition, they have a different tone in those fellowship groups because they are singles. Working Disciples, the previous singles ministry, was like that before the Foundry replaced them. The college department has that tone. What you perceive as a pervasive PDL philosophy is just singles ministry activity. It is not bad, evil, or transformational, and it does not spill into the remainder of the church. If, for example, your absurd claim that Tom Patton is a “change agent” were true, you would see such things in the new ministry where he pastors, Cornerstone fellowship group. He took it over when the previous pastor moved on to another ministry.

    *Their webpages were deleted because of my original paper.*

    [Editor’s note: Bob claims Grace Church is intentionally changing websites to hide what he is allegedly exposing. Pastor Coleman and his side-kick, Robert Klenck, who is the source of a lot of the Church Growth philosophy Bob claims is happening at Grace, also accuses the leadership of Grace of intentionally hiding “proof” when it gets exposed].

    (Fred) No they didn’t remove any websites. I told you in a previous email that I spoke with the webmaster. He happens to be a friend of mine. The guy who maintains the website for the Guild at that time was updating and changing the webpage for normal purposes. He was not changing them because you “exposed” some evil under belly going on there at the Guild. It was just a coincidence that those pages were changed around the same time you published your “paper.”
    http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/search/label/Bob%20Johnson

  • Alan Heron

    Hi Fred,
    Okay, I’ll give it one LAST try. In short, concise, logical steps.
    1. God is completely OUTSIDE of the stream of TIME.
    2. We are completely INSIDE the stream of TIME.
    3. Therefore, from OUR viewpoint within the stream of TIME, God ‘FOREKNEW’. God ‘PREDESTINED”.

    BUT!

    4. From God’s viewpoint, He experiences, in a constant, eternal PRESENT tense, the end,the middle and the beginning, as NOW.
    He doesn’t look FORWARD. He doesn’t look BACKWARD. He just LOOKS.
    He uses words we can relate to, because it’s easier for our minds to grasp some concepts that way, but His ways are NOT our ways, and His thoughts are NOT our thoughts.
    Again, the reason that Jesus said; “Before Abraham WAS, I AM”, is because that’s His relationship to time, always I AM, never I WAS, or I WILL BE, just I AM.
    The problem we all have is that we have to use words and ideas that are slaves to our experience. We can’t know what it is like for God, because we’re not eternal. All we can do is try to state something as honestly as we can, while not really grasping the reality of what it would feel like, because we are trying to describe something about God who is ultimately beyond our understanding.
    We can only use the words and concepts given to us in the Bible and not try to add to them, take away from them, or limit it them by forcing them into a human framework, just so we can explain it in half hour sermons that neatly wrap God up in bite size parcels, like chicken nuggets.
    Sorry, my sense of humour sometimes sneaks in to my words, so no offense intended, just trying to ‘smile’ as I write. Not that this is a laughing matter, far from it, but I don’t want to just trade broadsides.
    That’s as much as I want to say on the subject. I don’t think I can express this TIME issue any better, so if you still don’t get it, may I humbly suggest that you pray, without any kind of bias at all, for the Holy Spirit to reveal the Truth to you? I had to be prepared to let go of MANY long held beliefs, so I know how frightening it can be, but we must LOVE the truth above all things and be prepared to search for it as if for hidden treasure and to let go of anything that is not true, no matter the cost.
    May God richly bless you Fred, in Jesus’ wonderful name,
    Shalom.
    Alan.

  • Alan

    Hi All,

    Elmarie posted a statement of Fred’s above, which had this in it:-

    “As I have stated at the outset of this debate, both the Guild and the Foundry are singles groups. By definition, they have a different tone in those fellowship groups because they are singles.”

    I know that the whole idea of ‘singles ministry’ (whatever that means) has become very commonplace nowadays, but really, where on earth in the Bible is there any justification for this ‘ministry?
    In some churches, this is the euphemistic name for their version of a singles club, where men or women can go to find someone to marry. Of course there are many singles who see being involved in a church as a means to that end, which is wrong too; we should be seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, then all these things will be added unto us.
    This is a subject that is much on my mind of late and I don’t know what the future holds for me right now (whether or not I’ll remarry that is), but I will leave that to the Lord. If He wants me to be remarried, then He will arrange it, if not, it won’t happen. I will wait on him.

    Just a thought,
    Alan.

  • Peter Gerard

    Deborah,

    You are wrong in stating that Watch Unto Prayer has published “serpent seed teaching” on their website. No where on that site does Barbara Aho state that the serpent had sex with Eve. Since this gnostic teaching isn’t to be found on Watch Unto Prayer, then you must repent of your false assertion that it does. Both Barbara Aho of Watch Unto Prayer and Bob Johnson of The Watchman Wakes In Vain have stated correctly that the fallen angels mated with human women as stated in Gen 6, but neither has ever taught or advanced serpent seed teaching.

    [EDITED by DTW: I never said so, where did I say that? We do have Bob saying this, “One more thing, Prof. Malan totally misrepresents the “serpent’s seed” as Eve conceiving Cain with the serpent. This is a gnostic belief but the true serpents seed are descendants of the tribe of Dan who intermarried with the Canaanites who were the descendants of the Nephilim.” —

    So you guys do believe in serpent seed teaching, just another version of it (not the one where satan had sex with eve). Hence this is where you constantly speak about…. “Merovingian bloodline, which is the bloodline of the fallen angels with human women.” —

    So I would love to say sorry, but I can’t cos I never said it. Anyhow I am not bothered with this Merovingian bloodline stuff because I wont be seeing the anti-Christ as Jesus would have come to take His bride away before this.

    As for anything else regarding FACTS on MacArthur, Bob’s done a good job putting it all together.]

    Let me add that your recent blog commenter, Fred Butler, is a long time employee of John Macarthur’s Grace To You and is a well paid sychophant for both Phil Johnson and John Macarthur. Like all Macarthur employees, he is a zealous Calvinist, but don’t waste your time telling him that Calvin was a Jew, an occultist, a tyrant that rivaled the worst of popes, and a multiple murderer because Fred won’t attend to facts. If you go to Fred’s blog, then you’ll see that like most Calvinist blogs, his first link is to Al Mohler. But Fred won’t attend to the fact that Mohler, leading NGO’s of the United Nations and signing the Catholic, ecumenical Manhattan Declaration, shows that he can be a Calvinist, but not a Christian. Then again, how could Fred object to Al Mohler’s evil agenda when his boss, Macarthur, considers Mohler to be his close friend and invited Mohler to speak at his recent pastor’s conference?

    Allow me to continue. Fred Butler, in toeing the line to uphold John Macarthur’s Christian image, must tell many lies. For instance, when John Macarthur’s singles ministries were publicly exposed for following the Purpose Driven model, and when these ministry’s websites were gutted in an attempt to remove the evidence, true to form, Fred toed the party line by stating the bold and absurd lie that these websites were gutted “due to normal website maintenance.” And it is of no consequence to Fred that the pastor who was leading one of these Purpose Driven ministries is now leading a Purpose Driven-style ministry in North Carolina complete with facilitator-led groups…

    I recall seeing that Fred left a comment on this post stating something to the effect that he understands what the Purpose Driven model is, “but it’s not about TQM or Hegelian/Marxist stuff.” The truth is that Fred hasn’t the slightest notion what TQM is or that it IS the organizational model for all Purpose Driven churches and that this fact can be easily proven if one understands TQM and that Peter Drucker, who developed TQM, was Rick Warren’s mentor. Nor does Fred understand that the basis of the Purpose Driven Church and TQM are facilitator-led groups which ARE Marxist dialectic sessions.

    When it was exposed that the chairman of the Grace Church elder board, Rob Iverson, was a director of a false Christian org (a “church growth” org) called Leadership Resources International, Fred responded again in ignorance by telling the lie that this org was Christian and biblical. Just on the surface, does Leadership Resources International sound like a Christian org to you? I could go on with many more of Fred’s lies, but I’ll close by mentioning just one–as you may have already discerned, Fred, incredibly, doesn’t even believe that there is a world government in the making. To suggest there is a NWO in the making makes you a conspiracy theorist in Fred’s mind and if you peruse his website, then you’ll read that Fred believes that anyone who speaks about conspiracies is considered a nut (like anyone who has enough discernment to see that John Macarthur is a false Christian).

  • WOW

    Apostacy! There is a falling away. Until 1830, the church believed in God’s sovereign power over man’s plight to boast in himself. If your faith precedes your salvation, which it doesn’t, then you are responsible for your own salvation.

    Faith, too, is a blessed gift from God! We don’t earn our faith based on what’s in our hearts. The heart will do as God commands -or- does your heart deceive you into thinking you have 100% control over it.

    Christ’s death is enough to save anyone that God desires for it to save. He doesn’t need the works of men. But he does command it & so we preach a Christ crucified despite the futility of man trying to figure in the fairness doctrine.

    Read the Bible. Trust in the Lord! Ask him to reveal his Truth! Submit to His Will and be His.

    The traditions of men will be a stumbling block for all who think they must add to God’s redeeming power.

    Be blessed. Jesus is Risen!! Praise to our KING & SAVIOUR!!!

  • BornofGod

    This article concerning John MacArthur does not surprise me. I’ve read his testimony, any man who receives a Master’s in Divinity, does not necessarily mean he is walking in the Spirit. The whole concept of how ‘traditional Church’ functions is not from a New Testament foundation, it stems from the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. All of the ‘popular’ radio, tv, and print; speakers, teachers, and pastor’s are all basically falling away, why? They all have a mental knowledge of the Bible, but do not know the Author of the Bible.
    If a person is not born of the Spirit of the Living God, meaning regenerated by the Holy Spirit, convicted of sin first, by the revealing of the Truth which is in Christ Jesus, born by the faith of Christ, is not truly born again. All of these men such as: Chuch Swindoll, Paul Washer, Chuck Missler, John MacArthur, to name a few, are all ‘hirelings’, these men have all made the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ a ‘marketing tool’. They and their churches have made a fortune in marketing the Gospel. Did Jesus ever sell His sermons for $5.00 dollars a shot? Did Jesus live in a fine home making more money than any of His followers? None of these men were truly called of God, they have always served a god of their imaginations, the reasoning mind, all this is enmity against God, and the spirit of Anti-Christ.
    No one truly born of the Spirit of the Living God will fall away, they may succumb to false teaching, but the Lord promised He would deliver them, that I can attest too. Jesus said He would not “lose one of His sheep”. So those running this website better get a better footing on what they believe. A man has not the free will to turn to God, they must be drawn by God, and granted the gift of repentance, which is given by God.
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    I am not a Calvinist, never read anything by him, so spare me any talk concerning him. I have been saved by Christ coming to me, I did not seek him, but He sought me, and revealed the truth, very much the way Saul met the Lord, Saul’s so-called free will was to persecute, and kill anyone following the Lord Jesus Christ, but God had other plans, and came up against Saul, and you could say God willfully came against Saul and interrupted Saul’s plan. God invaded Saul’s will. Saul did not turn from His sin then accept Christ, Christ came and revealed the Truth to Him, then Saul (who was blind, was made to see). Saul was changed, and He did not have to do anything, God did all the work, by opening His eyes leading him to believe and trust in the Faith of Christ towards God.
    It makes me so sad to see how great these men have fallen, but what do expect from hirelings, they were never of God, so why should it come as such a surprise. The terror that strikes my heart is, that these men have been teaching a false Gospel, how many people have accepted a false Christ and have been lead to the spirit of Anti-Christ. All of these men are going to give an account, and that is going to be a fearful day.

  • Elmarie A

    Debs I found this and more about Bob Johnson and JMA. I’ll post the other info under

    I have deleted the article regarding the transformation of John Macarthur’s church. The reason this article was deleted is because it was an article written in judgment which is unbiblical. It was also written more in a spirit of “I’ll show you” than in love.. Does that mean that the facts in the article were untrue? I am unaware of any factual errors in that report.

    For instance, did Grace Church have purpose driven ministries? Yes. Do/did they have ministries that partner with governments and UN-NGO member orgs? Yes. Are their agents transforming Grace Church from within? Absolutely. Phil Johnson belongs to an org called FIRE. This org has a slogan identical to that of Phoenix Freemasonry. I said that was of interest but I never intended that anyone assume Phil Johnson was a Mason. I apologize to others at Grace Church who have been similarly hurt.

    Judge not lest you be judged. It was wrong for me to sit in judgment of Grace Church and John Macarthur and others. Only by God are they judged. How can I judge the speck in the eye’s of others when I have a log in my own? And I fear now that His judgment is upon me.

    Bob Johnson

    http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/

  • Elmarie A

    My Interview with a Crackpot
    Friday, May 19, 2006

    My Church is occasionally besieged by a variety of kooks, some more notorious than others, who are troubled by something my pastor said, or taught, or doesn’t teach firm enough; or whom he fellowships with or doesn’t fellowship with, or refuses to separate from.

    Generally these assortment of nuts are lone crusaders, but sometimes there may be two or three. They may picket with ugly, hand made signs expressing their criticisms of why our Church or pastor offends them, but it seems as though all of them hand out literature allegedly “documenting” the “bad” teaching coming from the pulpit. Now mind you, I am not talking about small, little tracts, but detailed, term paper length screeds. Many of them are copiously footnoted with three or four citations in just one sentence. Bible verses are also piled upon each other to provide a “spiritual” foundation to why our pastor or Church is wrong. I just marvel at how they have the money to run off 500 copies of a 15 page document.

    The last few Sundays, one of these self-appointed “watchmen” has been handing out a paper claiming among other things:

    * Grace Church has been infiltrated by the Church Growth philosophy
    * Our small group Bible studies are promoting Marxist ideology
    * The leaders of the various small groups use secret “buzz” words used to brainwash people to think in Marxist-Hegelian, Dialectic and Praxis terms
    * Folks in these small groups don’t quote enough Bible verses when they interact with each other
    * Al Mohler is a U.N. agent who is secretly working to bring in the new world order and the reign of the Anti-Christ.

    What a combination! The first 3 complaints are so unbelievable that it is fall to the ground laughable. The 4th is a matter of personal opinion and no where reflects the reality of our small groups at Grace. The complaint about Al Mohler being in league as an agent for the U.N. and a one world government truly intrigued me. I have met Christians bugged by Al’s membership on the board of directors of Focus on the Family, as well as his connection with the Billy Graham Crusades, but I had yet to meet anyone who charged him as being a diabolical U.N. agent.

    Apparently, according to the detailed research found in the literature I was handed, Al Mohler is a founding fellow for the For Faith and Family, a Southern Baptist ministry of the Ethics and Religious Liberty. The ERLC is on the list of the United Nations Non-Governmental Organizations. If you discerningly connect the dots (and I am sure there is a money trail to follow somewhere, too) it is clearly documented that Al Mohler is an agent for the U.N. Paige Patterson and Carl Henry are also founding fellows, so they must be agents as well.

    I was so amazed by this protester’s charges, as well as annoyed with his slander of some of my friends he names in his report, that I had to speak with him on a recent Sunday afternoon.

    I quickly learned his name was Bob and he is from Rhode Island. He likes John’s ministry, but has grave concerns over how the leadership is destroying John’s ministry by bring it down with the use of church growth philosophy.

    The following is my interview with Bob as best as I can reconstruct it:

    Me: I read your paper and I found it to be slanderous and absurd.

    Bob: Really?! It thoroughly document and I name all my sources. Where do you think I am being absurd?

    Me: Well, for one thing, you claim [my pastor friend] is involved with teaching church growth philosophy. I know him well – for at least 10 years or more and I know for a fact that is a lie.

    Bob: Well, I attended the fellowship group he pastors and I can tell you with out a doubt it is saturated in church growth philosophy.

    Me: How many times did you attend?

    Bob: Once. But it was enough to see the church growth philosophy taking over.

    Me: You were able to ascertain that with one visit?

    Bob: Oh yes, and the small group Bible study is filled with dialectic teaching trying to get all the people to think the same way.

    Me: You men like being unified in the faith like Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12 exhorts we should be as Christians?

    Bob: Well…. It wasn’t like that. They never even used Bible verses.

    Me: Really? Just how many Bible verses is a Christian to use in his or her conversations during the day?

    Bob: Well… They should at least open the Bible.

    Me: So, are you telling me that this pastor is lying as to his true agenda of what he is all about?

    Bob: Oh, sure he is. There’s no doubt.

    Me: But the Bible says a Christian is known for continual truthfulness. If this pastor is lying, that means he is intentionally deceiving the congregation as to who he is and is essentially an unbeliever. Are you saying this pastor is an unbeliever.?

    Bob: I didn’t want to go that far, but now that you mention it, perhaps he is.

    Me: So tell me. Do you really think Al Mohler is a U.N. agent?

    Bob: Oh yes, he is a false teacher who is trying to bring in the one world government. I fully document this in my paper. Just double check the links I provide. You will see this clearly.

    Me: Oh, I am sure I will.

    Bob: Hey you don’t know anything about me, so don’t have an attitude! Just check my research, it speaks for itself.

    Me: Well Bob, are you of the opinion that the world will be under one government in the end times and that the anti-Christ will rule over the world from that government?

    Bob: Oh, yes. That is what Revelation teaches.

    Me: And do you believe the rapture of the church will take place before that government comes to power?

    Bob: Oh, yes. That is what the Bible teaches.

    Me: If that is the case, Bob, then would it not be better to work to hasten the day of the rapture, so if Al Mohler is working to create a one world government, we should be helping his cause. The faster the one world government gets into place, the quicker the Lord comes, right?

    Bob: Some one else asked me that earlier…. it doesn’t work that way.

    Me: In your paper you claim the elders told you you could not ask Al Mohler any questions during the Shepherd’s Conference, is that right?

    Bob: Oh yes. All questions would be screened so they have something to hide.

    Me: But you do realize Al Mohler walked all over the campus during the conference and anyone could approach him and ask him questions if they wanted, right?

    Bob: Oh no, that is different. He needs to be asked publicly in front of all the attendees.

    Me: Why?

    Bob: Because, he needs to take account of his lies publicly.

    Me: Why do you think no one else sees through Al Mohler but you and some other folks you list in your paper?

    Bob: I guess they don’t study; they don’t want to see the truth.

    Me: So you think all of those guys at the Shepherd’s Conference were totally blinded to the truth of who Al is and what he stands for?

    Bob: You said it, not me.

    Me: Where do you attend Church, Bob?

    Bob: To be honest, I haven’t found a good congregation to worship with.

    Me: Why am I not surprised?

    Bob: Hey! If you can tell me were there is a good Church to join I would do it immediately!

    Me: In your paper, you claim [local LA pastor] is one of the few pastors who is teaching the Word and telling it like it is against the church growth movement. Why don’t you attend his church?

    Bob: Because his Church is not in downtown L.A. I don’t have transportation, so it has to be close enough to where I can get to it easily.

    Me: But Bob, if you live in downtown L.A. how did you get here to Grace to hand out literature?

    Bob: I took the bus.

    Me: Why then can’t you take a bus to this pastor’s church? It can’t be any longer to get there than it was to get here?

    Bob: You know bud, I have answered your questions. You are falsely accusing me. Just read my research and see for yourself if what I am saying is true or not.

    Maybe some of you readers out there would like to help me see the truth for myself. I must be such a spiritual dullard, that I have been blinded, or something.
    http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2006/05/my-interview-with-crackpot.html

  • Elmarie A

    An Update on Bob Johnson
    The Transformation Buster

    Sunday, August 29, 2010

    Some long time readers may remember the name, Bob Johnson.

    For the last four years or so, Bob has been a loud voice warning the Christian Church at large about John MacArthur and our ministries at Grace Church.

    I first encountered Bob in May of 2006 out in front of Grace Church on Roscoe Blvd. He was passing out a multi-page report that allegedly documented how a couple of our fellowship groups had succumbed to Purpose Driven Life philosophy and were engaged in seeker-sensitive church growth techniques. He further claimed the PDL philosophy was really akin to Hegelian-Marxist techniques that seek to brainwash individuals to think in terms of an ungodly group think (whatever that maybe). Some of the ways this “group think” supposedly manifested itself was in the manner of “vision casting” talk, small group dynamics where “facilitators,” as Bob called them, would lead the group in “brainwashing” sessions, and the building of relationships.

    Bob also had it in for Al Mohler, claiming that he was a secret, U.N. agent bent on infiltrating the Christian Church in America.

    I spent a good 30-40 minutes talking with Bob and I wrote up our initial encounter with a snarky posted entitled, My Interview with a Crackpot.

    I thought Bob would remain something of a onetime, local conspiracy kook, but before I knew it, he had taken to the internet with his screeds against John and Grace Church. Both Phil Johnson (no relation) and I would receive phone calls and emails from individuals from all over the world asking about the accusations in Bob’s papers. One of the recent mission conferences even addressed Bob’s material, because he was claiming our Master’s Academy International, a seminary ministry designed to train foreign national pastors in their home countries, was a secret group with the agenda to subvert the Christian churches in the various countries where they operated.

    It became clear Bob needed to have something of an answer, at least to me. I pulled together a number of personal emails I exchanged with Bob and a couple of his minions (though I think one or two of them was the Bob in question) and I published them as apologetic articles for inquirers who had run across his internet sites.

    This past Friday, August 27th, Phil Johnson informed me he had received a phone call from Bob apologizing for the articles. He further informed Phil that he had taken down his websites and would no longer be posting against John. His main reason is that he believed he was too judgmental in an unbiblical way. Phil encouraged him to make some public announcement of his change, which to Bob’s credit he did at his The Watchman Wakes in Vain site.

    Seeing that I have been Bob’s most vocal opponent, I thought I would post it here:

    I have deleted the article regarding the transformation of John Macarthur’s church. The reason this article was deleted is because it was an article written in judgment which is unbiblical. It was also written more in a spirit of “I’ll show you” than in love.. Does that mean that the facts in the article were untrue? I am unaware of any factual errors in that report.

    For instance, did Grace Church have purpose driven ministries? Yes. Do/did they have ministries that partner with governments and UN-NGO member orgs? Yes. Are their agents transforming Grace Church from within? Absolutely. Phil Johnson belongs to an org called FIRE. This org has a slogan identical to that of Phoenix Freemasonry. I said that was of interest but I never intended that anyone assume Phil Johnson was a Mason. I apologize to others at Grace Church who have been similarly hurt.

    Judge not lest you be judged. It was wrong for me to sit in judgment of Grace Church and John Macarthur and others. Only by God are they judged. How can I judge the speck in the eye’s of others when I have a log in my own? And I fear now that His judgment is upon me.

    In spite of Bob’s claim that what he wrote he believed was factually true, it was not. I will say a lot of his charges against our Church stem more from his strange interpretations of what he considers “church growth” philosophy. If he begins with his particular model in place, I can see how he can easily find ghouls when none really exist. For instance, we have never utilized “Purpose Driven Life” principles in any of our ministries. The use of small groups, utilizing contemporary music, even talking about “catching a vision” does not equate to church growth-PDL philosophy and is only a figment of Bob’s conspiratorial mindset.

    I will say I am concerned for Bob, especially regarding his last sentence of how he is fearful of God’s judgment coming upon him. I have never wished such a thing on Bob, just that he would admit his mistake and cease from lying against my pastor and church.

    In addition to Phil’s admonition to put up an announcement about why he is doing what he is doing, I would even encourage Bob to write up a page to be handed out to our congregation expressing his wrong doing and asking for forgiveness and spend a Sunday or two handing it out to the folks coming and going to church. Maybe it is a little too much and perhaps unneeded, but I for one would love to see how God can change one of the biggest critics of my church into one of the biggest supporters.

    Labels: Bob Johnson
    http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2010/08/update-on-bob-johnson.html

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hmmm…

  • Burning Lamp

    It seems that Bob is just another one hopping down a bunny trail. (Here we go again, but I haven’t found a better way of expressing it.) Bob has several credibility issues, mainly his connections to Barbara Aho, et al. He was hopping down the PDL bunny trail regarding JMA and Grace church. Some of his info is no doubtedly correct, but he can’t be considered a credible source with his conspiratorial tone.

    Then there is the bunny trail of the blood of Christ. These are all diversions away from the crux of the matter – JMA’s Calvinism beliefs. (See my other post on the JMA “Blood Thread”.

    JMA appeals to the mainstream because he doesn’t wear his Calvinism like a badge like others who subscribe to that doctrine. He appeals to the “discernment community” because he takes stands on those type of issues. He is a “John of all trades” as he appeals to a broad spectrum of believers.

    I have seen people snookered into Reformed/Calvinistic beliefs by this subtle Trojan horse methodology. JMA is a master of mixing truth and error. He has a pleasing manner and does not get into debates like other Reformed folks like James White.

    Bottom line, we have to be careful and not get led down some bunny trail that takes us away from the main path. Bunnies are known for hopping all over the place but getting nowhere. Better to be a tortoise plodding steadily along the trail to the finish line.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Right now I feel like a tortoise that’s been driven over by a car :(

    Fred Butler went as far as to say in the comments above that because I did not believe in the Calvinist version of Predestination I am a reprobate. This is what is scary about a staunch Calvinist… what do they really think of everyone else.

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Right now I feel like a tortoise that’s been driven over by a car :(

    I have been driven over by a car as crank tortoise :-( really soooooo tired from the traveling.

  • Burning Lamp

    Debs. you will recall that tortoises have hard shells into which they can retreat for safety. That “shell” is the solid doctrine of the Word of God and His truth.

    Bunnies on the other hand, have no such protection. They are just warm and fuzzy and big ears that like to be tickled. And to carry the analogy a bit further, they multiply like crazy. ;-)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    You are right. I was actually thinking about that after I wrote that comment. I pictured this poor little tortoise on the road sorta flat but still intact haha. Thanks for reminding me about the rock hard shell.

  • In light of Bob’s recent “repentance” I am curious as to what that Peter guy says after he posted all those nasty things about me on June 8. Wow. I’ll admit to being a sycophant, but I am hardly well paid. =-)

    Deb writes,
    “Fred Butler went as far as to say in the comments above that because I did not believe in the Calvinist version of Predestination I am a reprobate.”

    When did I say this? Either I wasn’t clear about something I wrote, or you are reading into my comments. I need some specific documentation.
    Fred

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred Butler

    Yes Fred. Go and read what you wrote above it’s all there.

  • Yes Fred. Go and read what you wrote above it’s all there.

    Be specific. I don’t have time to do that.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Fred

    Shame, poor you.

  • Burning Lamp

    Yes, Debs – Fred expects YOU to take the time to go back and dig out his own quotes but can’t be bothered to do it himself. But we have to remember that Fred is an important guy and you are…….well, guess you aren’t as important. But somehow I think you can live with that……..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Yip I can live with that. Cos as a reprobate *drum rolls and cymbal crashes* , I’ve realised that using things like CTRL+F to find words is something only lower class people like me can do. It’s terrible, I know, but there are perks to being unimportant. lol.

  • Bob Johnson

    Deborah,

    Please take the article I wrote about J Macarthur’s church down. It’s not true. There is no transformation going on there. J Macarthur s a great Christian and his church is solid. I just took a few facts and made a mountain out of a molehill. I did it because of envy and spite.

    Bob Johnson

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Bob

    I have no idea why you gave in to this man. To be honest you have played right into Satan’s hands. As much as I did not agree with you on other doctrinal issues, I am shocked that you are bowing down to JMA.

  • stegokitty

    “We are not predestined, or elected by God”.

    Really? Ever read, ohhh, I dunno, maybe the 1st chapter of Ephesians?
    It’s not whether or not we’re elected by God, but on what basis.
    Are we elected by God unto salvation because God looks down the corridor of time and sees we’re going to do a good thing (believe the Gospel) and then rewards us for our good work’
    Or does God elect his people based upon his grace alone, and having nothing to do with the sinner. In fact, that God must awaken the dead sinner (you know, the enemy of God, dead in sins, a lover of self, hater of God, blind and deaf to spiritual things, unable to understand spiritual things, opposed to holiness, enslaved to sin, under the dominion of Satan, etc), and give him eyes to see, ears to hear, a heart that beats with the love of Christ, enabling him to see his sin, to loathe it, to comprehend the wrath of God about to come upon him for his sin, so that now he turns to Christ for salvation from his sin, from the dominion of Satan, and from the wrath of God.
    You know THAT kind of election?
    Yeah. That would be the teaching of the Scriptures.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    stegokitty

    Do you actually read your bible? If you do read it, do you understand it properly? Like I dunno, maybe the the 1st chapter of Ephesians?

    Just because the word predestined is mentioned in the bible does not mean it’s actually what John Calvin twisted it to be. Open your eyes to SEE that JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR THE WHOLE WORLD AND NOT JUST FOR YOU (THE CHOSEN).

  • Burning Lamp

    Stegokitty,

    You have a catty way of expressing yourself. Sounds like pride. But that is a common characteristic of Calvinist/Reformed folks.

    I have no merit in myself – the Holy Spirit drew me through a ministry that delivered the message of salvation, the Gospel. I chose to respond and the Lord accepted me in the beloved. Calvinists would say that if I was chosen, I was marked by God and come hell or high water I would become a Christian with no choice in the matter. But my sister who was not chosen could hear the Gospel over and over and because she was chosen NOT to be saved it would roll off her like water off a duck’s back with no hope. That my dear is heresy!! That is an insult to our Lord and Savior.

  • TonyP

    @Deborah, just read this article you posted in Marc h about GCC and whenI tried to read the details in the pages all the links were down? Could you please help.

    Thanks

    PS Thanks for you posting / Web-ministry, praise God for His faithfullness through you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    TonyP

    The guy Bob who did the info took his site down, it seems he was threatened. I wanted to make a copy of it but I was too late in doing so as well. Sorry dude, GCC wins this round…

  • Kay

    The expose of John Macarthur is posted here:

    http://www.johnmacarthurexposed.blogspot.com/

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kay

    THANK YOUUUU! I’ve been searching for a copy ;)

  • sylesa

    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-53_The-Lordship-Controversy dear Burning Lamp, here is a teaching on Lordship salvation, i listened to it. Maybe try to understand what he is saying. If not, that’s ok, just wanted you to hnow that not every nuance of what he believes is contained in any single message. Thanks for your patience in hearing me out.

  • Chanton

    As I’ve read much of the previous delusional comments on John MacArthur and the ministries of GCC alongside their fellowship with Al Mohler and The entire issue of Calvinism. Several issues needs to be highlighted.

    Firstly, What makes you all an authority on such matters?
    Secondly, Just because MacArthur like me does not agree with all five points of Calvinism does not make him a double minded man rather because of his commitment to the truth of scripture and where calvinism is right he would have to agree and where they appear to be wrong he rightly would have to disagree.

    Thirdly, The application of 2 Thess 3:14 to Al Mohler needs to be revised as one needs to make a biblical and sound exegetical evaluation rather than an emotive one. Firstly what exactly does 2 Thess 3:14 teach? and what is the context in which that passage occurs? To loosely apply a verse at random could prove to be a mis application of scripture which has proven here to be just that. Furhermore, Has association to any particular organisation become the new gospel or does the gospel require believe in the person of Jesus Christ. and what constitute the core commitments of Al Mohler to the Christian faith? Also what is the core doctrines of the Christian faith in which we are to agree. Can one be truly so arrogant as to say that when someone does not agree 100% with us or our specific convictions that individual(s) is therefore not saved? And if that individual is genuinly saved he will go to heaven and whether you like it or not you will praise God with him and have fellowship with him.

    Finally though MacArthur and the men at GCC might not agree with all the associations of Al Mohler, the text of 2 Thess simply cannot be applied to that situation as that passage deals with something far more different and you have proven to have wrestled with scripture for your own selfish agenda.

  • eddie morales

    Hey Bob

    I read your whole letter regarding your disappointment with Dr. John Macarthur. But you did not back anything up with scripture. Explain? Can you counter everything that Macarthur said with scripture? Remember what you feel and believe is irrelevant to the facts. You must always bring everything to the light of the scriptures.

    Respectfully,
    Eddie Mo
    John 8:32

  • Burning Lamp

    Boy Eddie, apparently you have not been following the content of this thread? Bob has since gone away for whatever reason. But there is plenty of stuff here for you to munch on and it has a ton of scripture. Graze on friend! See if Lordship Salvation is biblical for example. Then come back and we can have a discussion. Mmmmkay?

  • Rich

    Can you explain where people would have originally gotten the idea that the God of the bible predestined us to salvation?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rich

    Ask a few thousand Calvinists and they will tell you God told them so. Read the bible correctly and you will see this is not the case.

  • Mike

    Wasn’t Jesus also accused of casting out demons in the name of Satan? :)

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    I have been collecting all of H.A. Ironside’s commentaries. They are now being made available online and a number of them are in paperback for about $3! I read the Word first and then use his commentary as a companion. I truly believe the Lord gifted him as one of the finest expositors of our time – he passed away over 50 years ago but his writings are timeless. I would recommend his books to anyone. He has one about salvation called “Full Assurance”. Some of his messages are online and are public domain. He was premill, and his doctrine was rock solid. Hope this blesses someone.

    Please can you tell me how to get those commentaries in paperback at a good price (like those at 3$). I would like to collect hardcopies of all of them too, but those I find are too pricey, and I live in Canada where shipping from the USA is another cost issue. I have some of them in pdf, and I agree with you that they are really good, and I would recommend them as well. I’m currently reading his John’s commentary. You can get my email from Debs and email me them info.
    Thanks.

  • Cal

    First I will respond to Rich: the Book of Epistles will explain and in the Book of John chapter 6. No one can chose God, they must be drawn to God by God. There is nothing in man that desires the Lord, for they are dead in trespasses and sins. Death does not seek life. And please I’m not a Calvinist. The Bible clearly tells me so. I read the KJV and nothing more.
    Now John MacArthur was raised with Masonic influences due to his father, Jack MacArthur’s involvement with Charles Fuller, and Henrietta Mears. Roy Rogers, and Dale Evans were Masons, and died as Mason’s. Photo of their gravesides prove it. John MacArthur has supported Jack Hayford, who is a false teacher and prophet, and is not a believer, he founded Promise Keepers, it’s also Ecumenical.
    John MacArthur went to Talbot Bible Seminary which is a branch of Biola University, which is know for it’s ecumenical stance. John MacArthur’s teaching against the Blood of Christ, and Jesus Eternal Sonship also proves his unworthiness as a follower and leader of the Lord’s sheep. John MacArthur always says one thing, but his actions prove otherwise.
    John MacArthur has never known the one true Jesus Christ. He is a false believer, and a false teacher.
    The Lord’s sheep will hear His voice, and come out from amongst the anti-christ system.
    The Lord bless you and guide you into His Truth, His Freedom, and His Light. Anyone who continues to support JM goes against everything the Lord Jesus Christ stood for, and you really do end up calling Him a liar. But we know God does not lie, men do.
    Let’s not forget Satan knows God’s word, Judas knew God’s Word, but he was still the Son of Perdition. He was of the Devil, God’s Word speaks it.
    The Lord grant all who truly know Him the grace to accept the truth, and set you free from the idolatry of men, to just seeing Jesus and nothing more.
    JM is apostate, and has never been honest with the sheep.
    In His Eternal Love……

  • Sharon

    Oh Deb-ster…every time I click on the topic Pt. 1, 2 etc…it I get “this page can’t be displayed. I tried to see if I were the problem, but it won’t open any of them. I dunno….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sharon

    Um, yes, he was threatened and he deleted the information. I have found a new place where he put the info: http://www.johnmacarthurexposed.blogspot.com/

  • Elmarie A wrote:

    An Update on Bob Johnson
    The Transformation Buster
    Sunday, August 29, 2010

    Some long time readers may remember the name, Bob Johnson.

    For the last four years or so, Bob has been a loud voice warning the Christian Church at large about John MacArthur and our ministries at Grace Church.

    I first encountered Bob in May of 2006 out in front of Grace Church on Roscoe Blvd. He was passing out a multi-page report that allegedly documented how a couple of our fellowship groups had succumbed to Purpose Driven Life philosophy and were engaged in seeker-sensitive church growth techniques. He further claimed the PDL philosophy was really akin to Hegelian-Marxist techniques that seek to brainwash individuals to think in terms of an ungodly group think (whatever that maybe). Some of the ways this “group think” supposedly manifested itself was in the manner of “vision casting” talk, small group dynamics where “facilitators,” as Bob called them, would lead the group in “brainwashing” sessions, and the building of relationships.

    Bob also had it in for Al Mohler, claiming that he was a secret, U.N. agent bent on infiltrating the Christian Church in America.

    I spent a good 30-40 minutes talking with Bob and I wrote up our initial encounter with a snarky posted entitled, My Interview with a Crackpot.

    I thought Bob would remain something of a onetime, local conspiracy kook, but before I knew it, he had taken to the internet with his screeds against John and Grace Church. Both Phil Johnson (no relation) and I would receive phone calls and emails from individuals from all over the world asking about the accusations in Bob’s papers. One of the recent mission conferences even addressed Bob’s material, because he was claiming our Master’s Academy International, a seminary ministry designed to train foreign national pastors in their home countries, was a secret group with the agenda to subvert the Christian churches in the various countries where they operated.

    It became clear Bob needed to have something of an answer, at least to me. I pulled together a number of personal emails I exchanged with Bob and a couple of his minions (though I think one or two of them was the Bob in question) and I published them as apologetic articles for inquirers who had run across his internet sites.

    This past Friday, August 27th, Phil Johnson informed me he had received a phone call from Bob apologizing for the articles. He further informed Phil that he had taken down his websites and would no longer be posting against John. His main reason is that he believed he was too judgmental in an unbiblical way. Phil encouraged him to make some public announcement of his change, which to Bob’s credit he did at his The Watchman Wakes in Vain site.

    Seeing that I have been Bob’s most vocal opponent, I thought I would post it here:

    I have deleted the article regarding the transformation of John Macarthur’s church. The reason this article was deleted is because it was an article written in judgment which is unbiblical. It was also written more in a spirit of “I’ll show you” than in love.. Does that mean that the facts in the article were untrue? I am unaware of any factual errors in that report.

    For instance, did Grace Church have purpose driven ministries? Yes. Do/did they have ministries that partner with governments and UN-NGO member orgs? Yes. Are their agents transforming Grace Church from within? Absolutely. Phil Johnson belongs to an org called FIRE. This org has a slogan identical to that of Phoenix Freemasonry. I said that was of interest but I never intended that anyone assume Phil Johnson was a Mason. I apologize to others at Grace Church who have been similarly hurt.

    Judge not lest you be judged. It was wrong for me to sit in judgment of Grace Church and John Macarthur and others. Only by God are they judged. How can I judge the speck in the eye’s of others when I have a log in my own? And I fear now that His judgment is upon me.

    In spite of Bob’s claim that what he wrote he believed was factually true, it was not. I will say a lot of his charges against our Church stem more from his strange interpretations of what he considers “church growth” philosophy. If he begins with his particular model in place, I can see how he can easily find ghouls when none really exist. For instance, we have never utilized “Purpose Driven Life” principles in any of our ministries. The use of small groups, utilizing contemporary music, even talking about “catching a vision” does not equate to church growth-PDL philosophy and is only a figment of Bob’s conspiratorial mindset.

    I will say I am concerned for Bob, especially regarding his last sentence of how he is fearful of God’s judgment coming upon him. I have never wished such a thing on Bob, just that he would admit his mistake and cease from lying against my pastor and church.

    In addition to Phil’s admonition to put up an announcement about why he is doing what he is doing, I would even encourage Bob to write up a page to be handed out to our congregation expressing his wrong doing and asking for forgiveness and spend a Sunday or two handing it out to the folks coming and going to church. Maybe it is a little too much and perhaps unneeded, but I for one would love to see how God can change one of the biggest critics of my church into one of the biggest supporters.

    Labels: Bob Johnson
    http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2010/08/update-on-bob-johnson.html

    If what Bob Johnson exposed in his article is the truth and nothing but the truth as he confirmed again and again, then it was not he who judged John MacArthur and GCC but GCC’s own waywardness and apostasy. You can’t judge someone of being judgmental when he exposes error (Ephesians 5:11).

    Who will dare to judge Paul of being unloving and judgemental when he wrote:

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8-9)

    I’ve heard the little sing-song “judge not lest ye be judged” so many times when exposing error, that it’s not even funny any more. In John 7:24 Christians are admonished to judge righteously and in 1 Corinthians 5:12 and 13 they are told to judge those who are inside the church, not outside (unbelievers) whom God alone judges.

  • Carolyn

    Thomas : I’m sensing that some people can really put their own “snarky” spin on things. One thing is certain, when we stand before God Almighty, there won’t be any “yarn spinnin”. He’ll see right through it and all our cyber-speak of tough talking, legal threatening hay, wood and stubble will be a bit of smoke left over from the pile of burnt up “rabble rousing” at his feet.

    We aren’t to be defending “our reformed church” or any other denominational structure (except Christ’s true body of believers) , but rather, the gospel.

    I know it’s been covered in some comments above but here it is again….yes, I know that some people don’t agree with everything on this site, but give credit to the research and pay attention to the words of John MacArthur…
    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/macarthur-unsaved.htm

    “MacArthur Denies the Redemptive Power of Jesus’ Literal, Physical, Blood

    The April 1986 edition of Faith For The Family quotes MacArthur as saying in a 1976 article entitled, “Not His Bleeding But His Dying”:

    “It was His death that was efficacious . . . not His blood . . . Christ did not bleed to death. The shedding of blood had nothing to do with bleeding . . . it simply means death . . . Nothing in His human blood saves . . . It is not His blood that I love . . . it is Him. It is not His bleeding that saved me, but His dying.”

    Mr. MacArthur is a heretic who states:
    “It is not the actual liquid that cleanses us from our sins, but the work of redemption Christ accomplished in pouring it out.” -Dr. John MacArthur.”

    If it was only this example of Scripture twisting alone, it would be enough to convict MacArthur as a heretic…but that’s just the tip of the iceberg. When I first came out of charismania, I listened to John MacArthur with rapt attention. I was into teachers who sounded like they knew something. As I have progressed in knowledge of the Word of God, I have discerned that such men only think they know something. They are masters at Scripture twisting and we the people have to decide whether we want our ears tickled with what sounds good or whether we want the truth. When someone says, “it doesn’t really say such and such” or “it should say such and such”…that’s about the time I start looking to see the wolf behind the sheep’s mask…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Carolyn

    I too was a taken-in by Mr MacArthur when I did not know what Calvinism was all about. (For all of a few weeks – thank goodness not a minute longer.) Then I heard these things about John MacArthur and I investigated and studied his study bible commentaries and found out it was true, he does deny Jesus’ blood. I could not believe it, then I did some more research and found out he was a Calvinist, I thought, ‘What is Calvinism…hmmm” So I went and read up on that, and boy I immediately realised that is not the gospel! Calvinist preachers capture their flock by preaching these ‘wonderful’ sermons that sound so biblical but they fail to tell them from the get go about Predestination. So people listen to these pastors for sometimes years slowly being indoctrinated into their garbage not realizing what it’s about, that when you tell them they fight you tooth and nail.

  • Redeemed

    Well said Carolyn!

  • Carolyn

    It is baffling how someone calling herself “Elmarie” can so fabricate the truth. She makes Bob out to be a crackpot, when clearly, he is anything but. He has backed up his research with fact after fact. But I can see how he is a threat to the change agents who like to work under the radar and under the cover of darkness.

    She should read what Bob says instead of showing her ignorance and reiterating some trumped up need for him to ask for forgiveness from the wolves he is exposing. I can’t imagine why anyone who has this kind of knowledge about the infiltrating change agents would be feeling bad about exposing them.

    About Bob, she mocks: “He further claimed the PDL philosophy was really akin to Hegelian-Marxist techniques that seek to brainwash individuals to think in terms of an ungodly group think (whatever that maybe). Some of the ways this “group think” supposedly manifested itself was in the manner of “vision casting” talk, small group dynamics where “facilitators,” as Bob called them, would lead the group in “brainwashing” sessions, and the building of relationships.

    What he actually says in his paper is something we all know to be true: http://www.johnmacarthurexposed.blogspot.ca/

    “Vision Casting

    Church change agents work to create dissatisfaction with the old traditional ways. When people become dissatisfied with the present situation, will they be open to change.

    One method used by church change agents to sow seeds of dissatisfaction is to “cast a vision” for the membership of a better future. By casting their visions of “what can be” (which is a fantasy or an illusion), the change agent is able to “unfreeze” the group from the old way and move them toward a new way as they all now focus on this new vision. Vision statements are an important part of the church transformation process. As the congregation focuses on a man-made vision or purpose, an organizational collective “group mind” is created.

    To “catch the vision” or “vision casting” are New Age terms. According to the TQM model, successful leadership begins with a vision which reflects the shared purpose. This is also called a transformational vision. “Vision” or “what can be” results from a dissatisfaction with God and His Word, and is antithetical to biblical Christianity. “What can be’ or ‘vision’ is the end result of the Hegelian dialectic process or transformational thinking. It is the direct opposite of moral absolutism-‘what is’ [God’s Word]. In order to move a person into this transformational mode of thinking, ‘what is’ must be questioned and challenged. The dialectic process-‘constant change’- requires one to let go of ‘what is’, in order to strive toward potential-‘what can be’ [vision]. You have to leave your moral absolutes behind [God’s Word], or else you will remain resistant to change…” 60.

    To me and many others who have researched these affiliations in past years, it is obvious who is doing the lying here and who needs to repent. The tables of the money changers and change agents will be overturned once again in due time. Meanwhile, the truth of John 16:1-3 will be our comfort:
    16 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
    2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
    3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

  • Carolyn

    Hey Debs and Redeemed…it’s been awhile since we had a group hug….on the count of three….:-)
    love you guys!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Yes, Elmarie A has issues, lots and lots of issues.
    2 Corinthians 10:4-5 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn and Redeemed

    on three…

    [hugs] and love you too!

  • Redeemed

    Carolyn wrote:

    Hey Debs and Redeemed…it’s been awhile since we had a group hug….on the count of three….:-)
    love you guys!!!

    Cyber group bear hugs! Love you too!

  • Carolyn

    Last time I read through some of this stuff on MacArthur, I had just been defending him as a simple preacher man, with a simple lifestyle, standing on a simple, no-frills platform. After reading some of this same material, my opinion was altered, my gullibility was strangely withered, my trust in simple preacher-men images damaged and my heart pained.

    What a lie, propagated and swallowed by purpose driven, worldly driven alliances funding networks of Christians and non-Christians partnering together to bring a “gospel” to the world. Men who held a knowledge of the precious Word of God and could have made a difference by simple obedience and Spirit led living, instead, left the path of pure faith, where God enables individuals to grow and reproduce. The result? An insidious, man centred, money driven Beast, with an antithetical gospel. Good works done in the name of Christ replacing faithful work done because of a changed life.

    This has become the age of purpose driven stage buddies, confident grins, back patting, ego stroking, mystical-experiencial craving false preachers with megachurch oxytocin highs running through their blood. It makes me quite sick, but the real sickness comes when I realize that there are demon spirits behind the whole Satanic induced global plan. The more I learn, the more I thank God that he warned us ahead of time….

    We don’t follow the Beast. We follow Jesus, the Christ, The Son of the Living God, the Creator, the Living Word, The Lamb, Our Saviour….Hallelujah!

  • Carolyn said:

    …left the path of pure faith, where God enables individuals to grow and reproduce.

    I don’t think MacArthur left the path of pure faith. You can’t leave a path when you’ve never been in or on it. He has always been a Calvinist who believes that Jesus loves only the elect and thus died only for them. If Jesus died only for the elect it follows that He was not incarnated for the reprobate which, if you look at it closely, is a partial denial of Christ’s incarnation. If He died only for the elect, it means that He was only born (came in the flesh) for them too. In other words, He did not come in the flesh for the so called non-elect. And who believes this? Antichrist? You bet.

    How can anyone claim to be saved when they believe that God loves some and hates others? Jesus said: “And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:3). To know God means to believe on Him as He reveals Himself in his Word. Therefore, if you do not believe on Him as He reveals Himself in his Word, you are not saved. How does He reveal Himself in his Word? His Word says that GOD IS LOVE. He is the very essence of love and cannot do otherwise but to love his creatures. Yes, of course He hates their sins but Calvinists say that He also hates sinners. They believe this nonsense because they do NOT know the God of the Bible and Jesus said if you do not know Him and his Son whom He has sent to proclaim his love on the cross for all mankind, you cannot be saved.

    Calvinists ought to repent of their despicable heresies so that they may be saved. They are not only misrepresenting the God of the Bible but leading millions astray – directly into the jaws of hell.

  • Carolyn

    Thomas…I totally agree with you. Calvinists are not Christians, never were. What I should have said was that that these men have had access to the truth like few others in the world have had…being trained in theology; as opposed to jungle dwellers who have not had the opportunity of such Scriptural knowledge. They are so close to the truth (yet so far away). It’s tragic that men with training in the Scriptures can be so blind.

    But it is, of course, no different from the Pharisees of Jesus day. They knew the Scriptures inside and out, and yet they refused to come to Him and be saved because they did not know God. They were blinded by intellectual pride, religious ritual and traditional precedence. They didn’t want to know the real (Christ), since they were happy with the shadows.

  • Redeemed

    Concerning MacArthur, he is so very dangerous because he softpedals his Calvinism and is so widely accepted in the mainstream.

    He is an excellent mixer of truth and error. The “sneaky” calvinists are the most dangerous. those who wear it on their sleeve are more easily detected.

    He also hold himself up as a discerner and a watchman of sorts, just as others such as Ken Silva and other Calvinist bloggers. They report on the misdeeds of false teachers, but they are entrenched in false teaching themselves.

  • Sharon

    BEWARE of The MacArthur Study Bible!

    I recently took a close look inside the “Revised and Updated” edition of THE MACARTHUR STUDY BIBLE [1997] by Thomas Nelson publishers. Honestly, don’t waste your money, because it’s filled with heresy and really bad theology.

    First of all, Thomas Nelson owns the copyright to the New King James Version (hereafter called NKJV). So it’s not surprising that Thomas Nelson publishers are also publishing MacArthur’s garbage. Yes, I said garbage, because that’s what it is. I am not trying to be unkind, but honest. I am warning you about this Modernist who dares to claim the name of Christ, while denying the redeeming power of the literal blood of Jesus Christ. Satan is subtle and if we’re not careful, he’ll deceive us through false prophets like Dr. John F. MacArthur.
    Ironically, the insert to MacArthur’s Study Bible reads: “GOD’S TRUTH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD.” I couldn’t agree more, which is why I am exposing Nelson Publishers and John MacArthur as heretics who have corrupted the very Words of God, and perverted the meaning of the Scriptures.

    Please don’t misunderstand me, there are many wonderful teachings in The MacArthur Study Bible, just as the Jehovah’s Witnesses also teach many wonderful things in their literature; but John MacArthur, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, teaches damnable heresies as well. As is customary with Satan, we find a small amount of lies embodied within the truth, which is no truth at all. If Mr. MacArthur is wrong on salvation and the blood of Christ, which he certainly is, then he’s wrong about everything else too.

    The Damnable New King James Version

    MacArthur’s Study Bible is based upon the perverted NKJV. The NKJV is just as rotten and corrupt as the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible. The NKJV has most of the same corruptions as does the NIV in comparison to the trustworthy 1611 King James Bible (KJB). The NKJV is based upon the same heretical work of Westcott and Hort as are all other modern perversions of God’s Word. The NKJV is dangerous, because it perverts the Word of God. For example: The NKJV publishers changed “narrow is the way” in Matthew 7:14 to “difficult is the way.” There is nothing “difficult” about the salvation offered to us through Jesus Christ! Jesus said in Matthew 11:30, “For my yoke is EASY, and my burden is light.” Jesus stated THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what the NKJV claims. Boy, you talk about a contradiction! Salvation is not difficult. Anyone can be saved simply by coming to Jesus Christ as a guilty sinner, believing on Him to wash away our sins by His own precious blood (1st Peter 1:18-19).

    So the first, and biggest flaw, of MacArthur’s Revised and Updated Study Bible is that he is basing his work upon a corrupted version of the Scriptures. Perverted bibles consequently lead to perverted doctrines. This is why so many false doctrines have crept into the New Testament Church today.

    Interestingly, MacArthur never addresses the issue of corrupt bibles in his “Study Bible.” How is it that a longtime pastor and Bible-teacher, who has exposed many religious cults, is blind to the reality of corrupt bibles which are corrupting today’s churches. As I’ve gone through MacArthur’s Revised and Updated “Study Bible,” I’ve purposely read his comments on Scriptures which have been corrupted in the NKJV, which his study is built upon. This is important. For example: In 2ndCorinthians 2:17 in the KJB states, “For we not as many which CORRUPT the word of God. The NKJV changes it to “For we are not, as so many, PEDDLING the word of God” (ditto NIV, NASV, NRSV, RSV). Here’s MacArthur’s commentary on the word “peddling” in 2nd Corinthians 2:17 (on page 1766 of his Revised and Updated “Study Bible”):

    “From a Greek verb that means “to corrupt,” this word came to refer to corrupt hucksters, or con men who by their cleverness and deception were able to sell as genuine an inferior product that was only a cheap imitation. The false teachers in the church were coming with cleaver, deceptive rhetoric to offer a degraded, adulterated message that mixed paganism and Jewish tradition. They were dishonest men seeking personal profit and prestige at the expense of gospel truth and people’s souls.

    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 752.

    MacArthur’s commentary, as does the perverted word “peddling” in the NKJV, steers the reader’s mind away from the reality that there are CORRUPT bibles on the market today. The phrase, “peddling the Word of God” only casts a negative reflection upon those who are greedy and have something to sell. The actual Greek meaning of this word (kapeleuo) is “corrupt” and it was very dishonest for Nelson Publishers to change this word. The word “peddling” is an incomplete definition of the Greek word. The full meaning is a person who adulterates and corrupts the word of God to make a profit. The word “peddling” does NOT convey the Greek meaning of this word. MacArthur is dishonest to go along with this perversion of the Scriptures. 2ndCorinthians 2:17 isn’t just condemning those who peddle the Word of God; but rather, those who corrupt the Word of God and then peddle it to make money.

    Unbelievably, MacArthur’s commentary on 2ndCorinthians 2:17 condemns Thomas Nelson publishers and all the other Bible-corrupters today; YET, he won’t address the issue because he is compromised. MacArthur has enough spiritual insight to expose false religions (such as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons); but then he fails to expose false bibles. This is a major flaw in MacArthur’s “Study Bible.” People need to be warned about the onslaught of corrupt bibles on the market today. Sadly, MacArthur is as blinded as a blind man. Do yourself an eternal favor and only use the King James Bible.

    MacArthur Deliberately Avoids Interpreting Psalm 12:7

    Psalm 12:6-8 in the KJB reads, “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.” Psalm 12:7 is God’s promise that He will PRESERVE His Words in every generation. That means that somewhere on the earth today we have God’s preserved Words. I believe God’s Words have been faithfully preserved in the precious King James Bible. Here’s the commentary which John MacArthur provides in his Revised and Updated “Study Bible” on page 752 for Psalm 12:7-8

    “The hostile realities of v. 8 call for the heavenly resources of v. 7” SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 752
    That’s it? That’s all you’ve got to say Mr. MacArthur concerning God’s promise to preserve His Words? MacArthur completely avoids the issue of preservation of the Word of God, because he us using a perverted Bible himself to mislead the masses. There’s no money to be made today selling the increasingly unpopular King James Bible in our apostate society. Nelson Publisher’s is pulling on the same rope as the Devil. Please read, The King James Version Hasn’t Changed.

    MacArthur Denies the Redemptive Power of Jesus’ Literal Physical Blood

    The April 1986 edition of Faith for the Family quotes MacArthur as saying in a 1976 article entitled, “Not His Bleeding But His Dying”:

    “It was His death that was efficacious . . . not His blood . . . Christ did not bleed to death. The shedding of blood had nothing to do with bleeding . . . it simply means death . . . Nothing in His human blood saves . . . It is not His blood that I love . . . it is Him. It is not His bleeding that saved me, but His dying.”

    Mr. MacArthur is a heretic who states:

    “It is not the actual liquid that cleanses us from our sins, but the work of redemption Christ accomplished in pouring it out.” -Dr. John MacArthur
    SOURCE:

    In MacArthur’s Revised and Updated “Study Bible,” he avoids Exodus 12:13 like the Bubonic Plague… “And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt” (KJB). MacArthur doesn’t comment directly concerning this verse. It baffles me as to why any professed Gospel preacher would make light of the literal blood of Jesus Christ. MacArthur has nothing good to say about Jesus’ physical blood, because he doesn’t think it has any value in and of itself. What good is a “Study Bible” that ignores the most important doctrine in the entire Bible? 1st Peter 1:18,19 tells us just how important the blood of Jesus is: “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

    MacArthur’s Deceitful, Confusing and Misleading Philosophies on the Blood of Christ Deceitfully, in MacArthur’s Revised and Updated Study Bible, he comments concerning 1st Peter 1:18, 19 on page 1941:

    “The price paid to a holy God was the shed blood of His own Son.”

    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1941

    Yet, to show you how deceitful MacArthur is, take a look at his comments concerning Hebrews 9:22 (i.e., “without shedding of blood there is no remission”) on page 1912 of his Revised and Updated Study Bible:

    “Shedding of blood” refers to death.”

    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1912

    Wow! What a deceiver! If God meant “death,” then He would have said “death” Mr. MacArthur; BUT He didn’t, He said “shedding of blood.”

    Christ’s virgin birth, sinless life, death, burial and bodily resurrection all led up to the application of His precious blood to the mercy seat in Heaven. MacArthur denies this vehemently. Take at look at what MacArthur comments on page 1910 of his Revised and Updated Study Bible concerning Hebrews 9:12 (i.e., “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us”):

    “A better translation would be “through His own blood.” … Nothing is said which would indicate that Christ carried His actual physical blood with Him into the heavenly sanctuary.”
    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1910

    On the contrary, the KJB states, “Moreover he [Moses] sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry … For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us” (Hebrews 9:21,24). If you’ll take the time to carefully read the entire chapter of Hebrews 9, you’ll find the word “blood” mentioned 12 times. You’ll also learn that the Old Testament tabernacle was a “figure” of the true Tabernacle in Heaven. Just as the Old Testament high priest was required to bring the lamb’s literal physical shed BLOOD into the holy place and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, so did Jesus Christ enter into the heavenly holy place with His own blood and sprinkle it on the Mercy Seat. MacArthur is very wrong!

    Hebrews 9:12 in the KJB states, “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” MacArthur claims that the phrase “by his own blood” should have been translated “through his own blood”; however, then this means that we would also need to change the phrase “by the blood of goats and calves” to “through the blood of goats and calves.” So then why did God require the blood of animals UPON THE MERCY SEAT in the Old Testament? Leviticus 17:11 reads, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”

    Perhaps Mr. MacArthur needs some better reading glasses.

    Here are MacArthur’s comments for Leviticus 17:11, i.e., the phrase “the life of the flesh is in the blood”:

    “…the shedding of blood represents the shedding of life, i.e., death … NT references to the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ are references to His death.”
    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 178

    There is NO such teaching in the Scriptures! John MacArthur has fabricated his own corrupt way of thinking. Hebrews 9:6-7 states: “Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second [i.e., the holy of holies] went the high priest alone once every year, NOT WITHOUT BLOOD, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people.” How can Mr. MacArthur be so naive and unbiblical as to claim that Jesus’ literal physical blood didn’t need to be applied to the Mercy Seat in Heaven, in consideration of such overwhelming Scriptural evidence?

    MacArthur really gets confusing in his commentary of Hebrews 9:7 on page 1910, the phrase “not without blood”:

    “…the shedding of blood in and of itself is an insufficient sacrifice. Christ had not only to shed His blood, but to die … Without His death, his blood had no saving value.”
    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1910

    While it is true that Jesus’ death was absolutely essential to His work of redemption, MacArthur attempts to use this fact in this Scripture as a means of completely disregarding the efficacy (power) of the literal physical blood of Jesus. Hebrews 9:7 isn’t talking about the “death” of the sacrificed animal; it is talking about the “blood” of the sacrificed animal. The truth is that Jesus’ virgin birth, sinless life, vicarious death, burial and bodily resurrection were all EQUALLY as important as the blood sacrifice itself; but all those things led up to the blood being applied to the Mercy Seat in the heavenly Holy Place. To deny this is to deny the entire Old Testament, all the types, all the blood sacrifices, and the FACT that God would have killed any highpriest who dared enter into the holy of holies WITHOUT BLOOD.

    John MacArthur’s entire “Study Bible” maliciously, but subtly, attacks the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Again 1st Peter 1:18,19 states: “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ…” Now how can Jesus’ blood be PRECIOUS if it is only representative of His death? MacArthur continually badmouths the literal blood of Jesus Christ, while simultaneously claiming that he views it as precious of something else it represents. That makes no sense at all.

    The blood of Jesus is “precious” to the genuine born-again believer because it is LITERAL, having literal redemptive power to wash our sins away just as 1st John 1:7 proclaims! To no surprise, on page 1964 of MacArthur’s Revised and Updated “Study Bible,” in his comments concerning 1st John 1:7, he doesn’t even address the blood of Jesus. How could any preacher completely avoid such a precious Scripture which teaches that Jesus’ blood washes our sins away?

    Now I can understand how LIQUID BLOOD can wash one’s sins away, but how does DEATH do so? God says that Jesus’ blood cleanses and washes our sins away (1st John 1:7). We read in Revelation 7:14, “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” How does someone like MacArthur just keep explaining all these Scriptures away? What a false prophet! MacArthur is of the Devil. How does a saint wash his robe with death? It makes no sense Mr. MacArthur. Ah, but if you believe the Word of God, i.e., that Jesus’ literal blood washes our sins away, then Revelation 7:14 makes perfect sense.

    MacArthur Perverts the Meaning of Acts 3:38 and Romans 10:9 to Teach Lordship Salvation

    Acts 2:38 in the KJB reads: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Concerning the word “repent,” MacArthur states on page 1637 of his Revised and Updated “Study Bible”:

    “Genuine repentance knows that the evil of sin must be forsaken and the person and work of Christ totally and singularly embraced.”
    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1637

    MacArthur makes salvation difficult. Does a person have to totally embrace the work of Christ to be saved? Romans 12:1 puts MacArthur to shame and exposes him as a false prophet… “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service” (KJB). It is obvious that these believers in Rome weren’t totally committed to Christ. Yet, they were Christians (Romans 1:7). According to John MacArthur, genuine repentance requires a person to commit their life “totally and singularly” to Christ in order to be saved. In sharp contrast, the Bible says that eternal life is a “free gift” (Romans 5:15). Although MacArthur is quick to agree with this, he hypocritically complicates the plan of salvation by adding requirements to it. All God requires is faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:5).

    Consider the carnal church of Corinth. The Apostle Paul states in 1st Corinthians 3:1, “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.” Carefully read through 1st Corinthians and you’ll be surprised just HOW BAD these believers were. They were suing each other (6:6). They were coming to the Lord’s Supper drunk (11:21). They were divided amongst each other in quarrels (1:12). Fornication was openly allowed in the church (5:1). They even ate meats offered to idols (8:4). According to the Lordship Salvation crowd, there’s no way these rascals could be saved; but the Apostle Paul called them BABES IN CHRIST.

    We read in Romans 10:9, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” (KJB). MacArthur perverts the meaning of this Scripture on page 1712 of his Revised and Updated “Study Bible” when he states concerning the phrase, “confess…the Lord Jesus”:
    “This is the deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person’s own master or sovereign. This phrase includes repenting from sin, trusting in Jesus for salvation, and submitting to Him as Lord.”

    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1637

    MacArthur certainly makes salvation difficult, just as the NKJV says in Matthew 7:14. However, the faithful King James Bible doesn’t say “difficult” in Matthew 7:14, it says “narrow.” Few people are willing to come to Jesus Christ for salvation, because they love their sins (John 3:20). But it is only their unwillingness to come to Jesus that prevents them from getting saved, not that they are required to give up their sins to be saved. Jesus plainly stated in John 5:40… “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” Notice that Jesus didn’t say “ye cannot come.” In John 6:37 we read, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

    In sharp contrast to the heretical teachings of John MacArthur, the Word of God teaches that any sinner may come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation, and Jesus won’t turn anyone away. MacArthur’s commentary on Romans 10:9 requires a lost sinner to have a “deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person’s own master or sovereign.” You’ve got to be kidding me? John 3:16 puts Mr. MacArthur to shame, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” I don’t see anything about having a “deep personal conviction” in there, do you? I don’t see anything about forsaking one’s sins to be saved, do you? I don’t see anything about submitting to Jesus as Lord, do you? What are you talking about Mr. MacArthur?

    Romans 4:5 is so plain and simple that it is incontrovertible (i.e., it cannot be denied)… “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” It almost appears as if a ghostwriter (i.e., another author) wrote the commentary for Romans 4:5 in MacArthur’s Revised and Updated “Study Bible,” because it is accurate for a change:

    “If salvation were on the basis of one’s own effort, God would owe salvation as a debt—but salvation is always a sovereignly given gift of God’s grace (3:24; Eph, 2:8,9) to those who believe.”
    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1699

    The preceding commentary is 100% accurate, for a change. It certainly appears that Mr. MacArthur doesn’t believe in Lordship Salvation, right? Wrong! Look what he says on page 1973 in his Revised and Updated “Study Bible” concerning 1st John 5:13, the phrase, “that you may know that you have eternal life”:

    “The false brethren’s departure left John’s congregations shaken (2:19). He assured those who remained that since they adhered to the fundamentals of the faith (a proper view of Christ, obedience, love), their salvation was sure.

    Here MacArthur gives the impression through his comments that a believer’s salvation is dependent upon the life he lives. Again on page 1439 of MacArthur’s Revised and Updated “Study Bible,” concerning Matthew 24:13, the phrase “endures to the end… be saved,” he states:

    “To say that God secures our perseverance is not to say that we are passive in the process…”

    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1439

    Scripturally, a believer has absolutely nothing to do with keeping one’s salvation. The term “perseverance” is a bad term when speaking of salvation, because a believer DOESN’T have to persevere in the faith to remain saved. A person who has no faith in the Lord today, but claims to have once been a Christian, is a liar. The second birth (i.e., being born again) is as irreversible as the first birth. Many people adopt the philosophy of Christianity, but never actually repent, turning in belief to the Savior for forgiveness of sins. The “Perseverance of the faithful” is a false doctrine, popularized by the heretic John Calvin (i.e., Calvinism).

    Also, I wanted to mention to you that the NKJV perverts 1st John 5:13 by adding the word “continue,” which now reads as: “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God” (NKJV). This is false doctrine. There is no such thing as a true believer ceasing from believing on Christ. We don’t have to “continue” in the faith to be saved; we will continue in the faith if we are saved. Of course, this doesn’t mean that there won’t be times of discouragement in our life. John the Baptist sent his disciples to go ask Jesus if was really the Christ (Matthew 11:3). Yep, I’d say John was discouraged.
    MacArthur Often Contradicts Himself

    Here’s a perfect example of how MacArthur contradicts himself 100%. On page 1920 of MacArthur’s Revised and Updated “Study Bible,” concerning Hebrews 12:14 and the phrase “pursue… holiness,” he states:

    “Unbelievers will not be drawn to accept Christ if believers’ lives do not demonstrate the qualities God desires, including peace and holiness.”
    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1920

    I agree with the above interpretation by Mr. MacArthur; however, he totally contradicts himself concerning his interpretation of Hebrews 12:14 in another book he has written…
    “Eternal security is a great spiritual truth, but it should never be presented merely as a matter of being once saved, always saved–with no regard for what you believe or do. The writer of Hebrews 12:14 states frankly that only those who continue living holy lives will enter the Lord’s presence. [emphasis added]
    SOURCE: Kingdom Living Here and Now (pg. 150).

    Which is it Mr. MacArthur? They can’t both be accurate. The introduction to MacArthur’s Revised and Updated “Study Bible” calls him a “world-class scholar.” I think not! Either 1 + 1 = 3, or else 1 + 1 = 2. It can’t be both. I’m tired of supporters of John MacArthur quoting places where he says 1 + 1 = 2, while ignoring other places where he clearly teaches that 1 + 1 = 3. This is exactly what MacArthur is doing. MacArthur’s hundreds of books are at best, a compilation of confusion, contradictions and bad theology.
    MacArthur’s Study Bible Is Rooted in the Heresies of the New King James Version

    I could give you hundreds of examples, but here’s another one. 2nd Corinthians 2:10 in the KJB reads, “To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ.” The meaning is clear… we forgive others because the Lord forgave us. This is what Ephesians 4:32 teaches. Now here’s what the dishonest NKJV changed it to: “I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ.” They changed “person of Christ” to “presence of Christ” (ditto NASV, NRSV, RSV). The Greek word for “person” here is prosopon, which means much more than just the presence of Christ. The word refers to the countenance of Jesus Christ, i.e., what we see when we look at Him. We see Christ’s love and forgiveness. Hence, we should forgive others because of the embodiment of all that Christ is — i.e., HIS PERSON. The NKJV distorts this truth, leading readers to believe that God is always watching us, so we should forgive. Although that is certainly true, this is NOT what 2nd Corinthians 2:10 is teaching.

    John MacArthur’s commentary of 2nd Corinthians 2:10 goes along with the corruption in the NKJV. On page 1766 of his Revised and Updated “Study Bible,” MacArthur states concerning the phrase, “in the presence of Christ”:

    “Paul was constantly aware that his entire life was lived in the sight of God, who knew everything he thought, did, and said.”
    SOURCE: The Revised and Updated edition of The MacArthur Study Bible, Thomas Nelson publishers, page 1766

    Although this is certainly a true statement, it does not properly interpret the meaning of 2nd Corinthians 2:10. We read in Hebrews 1:3, “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” The King James translators (48 of them) were brilliant and highly educated men. They knew what they were doing. The word “presence” in 2nd Corinthians 2:10 does not adequately convey the full meaning of the Greek Word. MacArthur has it backwards. Paul forgave, not because he knew God was watching (although that is certainly true); rather, Paul forgave because of the influence of Christ upon his life.

    The MacArthur Study Bible is as corrupt as the NKJV!!! There are literally THOUSANDS of subtle changes in the NKJV and other modern perversions of the Scriptures that will lead you away from the truth. Don’t be a fool, stick to your King James Bible. The alleged “scholarliness” behind today’s modern corrupt bibles is laughable compared to the painstaking work which went into the precious and trustworthy King James Bible. The best way to study the Bible is with a Strong’s Exhaustive Hebrew and Greek Concordance, and an Unger’s Bible Dictionary. This way you are studying the Word of God directly, and only using reference tools to aid your study. The cover on The MacArthur Study Bible boasts of having sold 500,000 copies. Tragically, most of those people won’t study for themselves, but instead will just believe what MacArthur says. This is what’s wrong with our churches today. Jesus commanded in John 5:39… SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES!

  • Carolyn

    Redeemed, Thomas…thoughts from someone else who also thinks Calvinism is evil. He makes some good points here:

    [link: removed]

    “I am very troubled by the logical implications that the Calvinist philosophy forces Christians to embrace. And also the image of the Christian “God” presented to the world.

    Calvinism, when consistently taken to its logical conclusions, implies all of the following:
    1. God’s offers of salvation to “whosoever will” are insincere. God is not completely honest in Scripture.
    2. God offers to save the non-elect IF they will do what is utterly impossible. God taunts the damned.
    3. God created most people for the purpose of torturing them forever. God is cruel and sadistic.
    4. God CAN save all, and DESIRES to save all, but chooses to damn many for no apparent reason. God is insane.
    5. God controls Satan’s every move, and every wicked act of the most vile sinner. God is the source of all evil.

    The bottom line is that Calvinism, when carried to its logical conclusions, implies that God is a lying, taunting, sadistic, insane, wicked, tyrant who demands our worship! One could substitute the word “Satan” instead of “God” in most of the above 5 statements, giving a more accurate portrayal of Bible doctrine.”

    Yes, most certainly, if you can believe this strange doctrine, you have not yet understood the God of the Bible. I pray that you will come out of darkness and find the God who is love and wants everyone to come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth. I’m not saying that a Calvinist will never be saved but at the least his view is so distorted as to make the light in him dark. As a charismatic, I had light but it was dark…until my idol was smashed.

    Since Calvinism emphasizes sovereignty to the exclusion of holiness, it make God’s “elect” out to be aristocratic, elitist robots with no will to choose to love and obey a holy God. What a travesty! God would have no reason to be angry with man’s sin if he had no choice.

  • Leon Petersen

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    It’shellwithoutJesus

    I didn’t wanna approve your comment until I had listened to the video’s myself, and I did, and maybe it’s because I have not slept for the last 3 nights (insomnia kicking in again) that I came very close to crying again.

    I can’t believe this. I went and check my study bible that I have of his and low and behold it’s there all there, he denies that the Blood of Jesus plays any part in your salvation.

    The Blood of Jesus is what washes away our sins, covers us, makes us spotless, so that we can be presented before God. If one denies that the blood of Jesus plays no part in salvation then….wow, shock, horror.

    The lamb sacrifice in the OT: was a spotless lamb (equated to being sinless). The lambs blood was spilled and Moses would sprinkle the sacrificed animals blood over the people. By doing this, the blood of the Lamb was washing away their sin.

    Jesus was born sinless, walked the earth sinless and was nailed to the cross SINLESS. We believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sin, that His blood that was shed on the cross washes away our sin, that Jesus died on the cross, defeated Satan, and physically rose 3 days later.

    WoF and other people say that Jesus took on our sin on the cross, that is the most satanic thing ever. If Jesus took our sin on the cross, then he was no longer a perfect sacrifice and His Blood would be tainted.

    John Macarthur does NOT deny the “Blood” of Jesus.
    Read the whole chapter 9 of Hebrews. Paul mentions the “blood” a few times by itself ( in reference to the comparison to the Old Testament ), using the word “haimatekchysia” for “shedding of blood”, and “haima” for “blood”. Bear in mind he is addressing the Jewish Believers, and stresses the comparison of the Old, to the New, Testament.
    Later on, after making the comparison clear to them, ( in terms of the Old Testament rituals ), he goes on to say:
    “Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:”

    So he’s laid the foundation of the argument, he now goes on to say in summation:

    “Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of himself.”..(using the word “thyō” )

    If it was indeed the Blood that accomplished this, SURELY he would have said: “….but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by His own Blood….”. But clearly, he does not say that, does he?

    I do not hold a Masters in Divinity, and reached this conclusion quite apart from John Macarthur’s usual brilliant exegesis.
    BTW, i read your comments on the “pleading of the Blood” and Catholic transubstantiation in Eucharist, and completely agree with you.
    If you perhaps rethink this all carefully, you will conclude, as I did, that John Macarthur is merely making the distinction to help us all avoid the pitfalls of being carnally-minded when it comes to these important matters.

    Much love
    Brother-in-Christ.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Leon

    John Macarthur does NOT deny the “Blood” of Jesus.
    Read the whole chapter 9 of Hebrews. Paul mentions the “blood” a few times by itself ( in reference to the comparison to the Old Testament ), using the word “haimatekchysia” for “shedding of blood”, and “haima” for “blood”. Bear in mind he is addressing the Jewish Believers, and stresses the comparison of the Old, to the New, Testament.
    Later on, after making the comparison clear to them, ( in terms of the Old Testament rituals ), he goes on to say:
    “Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:”

    So he’s laid the foundation of the argument, he now goes on to say in summation:

    “Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of himself.”..(using the word “thyō” )

    If it was indeed the Blood that accomplished this, SURELY he would have said: “….but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by His own Blood….”. But clearly, he does not say that, does he?

    I do not hold a Masters in Divinity, and reached this conclusion quite apart from John Macarthur’s usual brilliant exegesis.
    BTW, i read your comments on the “pleading of the Blood” and Catholic transubstantiation in Eucharist, and completely agree with you.
    If you perhaps rethink this all carefully, you will conclude, as I did, that John Macarthur is merely making the distinction to help us all avoid the pitfalls of being carnally-minded when it comes to these important matters.

    Much love
    Brother-in-Christ.

    I actually have an entire article on this:
    Please read article and all comments: John MacArthur – The Blood of Jesus is just Liquid! [REVISITED] – See more at:

  • Leon Petersen

    Carolyn wrote:

    Redeemed, Thomas…thoughts from someone else who also thinks Calvinism is evil. He makes some good points here:

    [edited: link removed]

    “I am very troubled by the logical implications that the Calvinist philosophy forces Christians to embrace. And also the image of the Christian “God” presented to the world.

    Calvinism, when consistently taken to its logical conclusions, implies all of the following:
    1. God’s offers of salvation to “whosoever will” are insincere. God is not completely honest in Scripture.
    2. God offers to save the non-elect IF they will do what is utterly impossible. God taunts the damned.
    3. God created most people for the purpose of torturing them forever. God is cruel and sadistic.
    4. God CAN save all, and DESIRES to save all, but chooses to damn many for no apparent reason. God is insane.
    5. God controls Satan’s every move, and every wicked act of the most vile sinner. God is the source of all evil.

    The bottom line is that Calvinism, when carried to its logical conclusions, implies that God is a lying, taunting, sadistic, insane, wicked, tyrant who demands our worship! One could substitute the word “Satan” instead of “God” in most of the above 5 statements, giving a more accurate portrayal of Bible doctrine.”

    Yes, most certainly, if you can believe this strange doctrine, you have not yet understood the God of the Bible. I pray that you will come out of darkness and find the God who is love and wants everyone to come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth. I’m not saying that a Calvinist will never be saved but at the least his view is so distorted as to make the light in him dark. As a charismatic, I had light but it was dark…until my idol was smashed.

    Since Calvinism emphasizes sovereignty to the exclusion of holiness, it make God’s “elect” out to be aristocratic, elitist robots with no will to choose to love and obey a holy God. What a travesty! God would have no reason to be angry with man’s sin if he had no choice.

    Redeemed wrote:

    Concerning MacArthur, he is so very dangerous because he softpedals his Calvinism and is so widely accepted in the mainstream.

    He is an excellent mixer of truth and error. The “sneaky” calvinists are the most dangerous. those who wear it on their sleeve are more easily detected.

    He also hold himself up as a discerner and a watchman of sorts, just as others such as Ken Silva and other Calvinist bloggers. They report on the misdeeds of false teachers, but they are entrenched in false teaching themselves.

    Hi!
    This is an excellent sermon by John on predestination and the like.
    [edited by DTW: removed]

    Youtube video (audio sermon)

    Much love

  • Leon Petersen

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Dear Leon

    John Macarthur does NOT deny the “Blood” of Jesus.
    Read the whole chapter 9 of Hebrews. Paul mentions the “blood” a few times by itself ( in reference to the comparison to the Old Testament ), using the word “haimatekchysia” for “shedding of blood”, and “haima” for “blood”. Bear in mind he is addressing the Jewish Believers, and stresses the comparison of the Old, to the New, Testament.
    Later on, after making the comparison clear to them, ( in terms of the Old Testament rituals ), he goes on to say:
    “Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:”

    So he’s laid the foundation of the argument, he now goes on to say in summation:

    “Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of himself.”..(using the word “thyō” )

    If it was indeed the Blood that accomplished this, SURELY he would have said: “….but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by His own Blood….”. But clearly, he does not say that, does he?

    I do not hold a Masters in Divinity, and reached this conclusion quite apart from John Macarthur’s usual brilliant exegesis.
    BTW, i read your comments on the “pleading of the Blood” and Catholic transubstantiation in Eucharist, and completely agree with you.
    If you perhaps rethink this all carefully, you will conclude, as I did, that John Macarthur is merely making the distinction to help us all avoid the pitfalls of being carnally-minded when it comes to these important matters.

    Much love
    Brother-in-Christ.

    I actually have an entire article on this:
    Please read article and all comments: John MacArthur – The Blood of Jesus is just Liquid! [REVISITED] – See more at:

    I have read the article and comments in it’s
    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Dear Leon

    John Macarthur does NOT deny the “Blood” of Jesus.
    Read the whole chapter 9 of Hebrews. Paul mentions the “blood” a few times by itself ( in reference to the comparison to the Old Testament ), using the word “haimatekchysia” for “shedding of blood”, and “haima” for “blood”. Bear in mind he is addressing the Jewish Believers, and stresses the comparison of the Old, to the New, Testament.
    Later on, after making the comparison clear to them, ( in terms of the Old Testament rituals ), he goes on to say:
    “Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:”

    So he’s laid the foundation of the argument, he now goes on to say in summation:

    “Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of himself.”..(using the word “thyō” )

    If it was indeed the Blood that accomplished this, SURELY he would have said: “….but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by His own Blood….”. But clearly, he does not say that, does he?

    I do not hold a Masters in Divinity, and reached this conclusion quite apart from John Macarthur’s usual brilliant exegesis.
    BTW, i read your comments on the “pleading of the Blood” and Catholic transubstantiation in Eucharist, and completely agree with you.
    If you perhaps rethink this all carefully, you will conclude, as I did, that John Macarthur is merely making the distinction to help us all avoid the pitfalls of being carnally-minded when it comes to these important matters.

    Much love
    Brother-in-Christ.

    I actually have an entire article on this:
    Please read article and all comments: John MacArthur – The
    Blood of Jesus is just Liquid! [REVISITED] – See more at:

    Hi Deborah,
    I have read the article and the comments thread in it’s entirety. Paul’s style of argument is the issue here around which there is a certain amount of disagreement. He conveys, or attempts to convey the Heavenly/Eternal truths by comparing them to the picture presented to us through the Old Covenant rituals. He goes on to say as much, in Heb 9:24 ” For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: ”
    The term “shedding of blood” is also used elsewhere to denote killing/death. This is a colloquial style, if you like, adopted to convey something idiomatically.
    Gen 9:6 “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. ”
    Meaning here is clear.
    1Ch 22:8 “But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.”
    Lam 4:13 “For the sins of her prophets, and the iniquities of her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the midst of her, ”
    Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
    Psa 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
    and so on……

    And here is an example of the word “blood” denoting “death”
    Mat 27:24 “When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
    Mat 27:25 “Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.”
    The meaning here as well, is clear. His DEATH be on us, and on our children.
    Pilate declares that he is innocent of the “DEATH of this Just man”

    When Paul starts the summation of his argument, he states clearly what he has meant up unto this point, by stating it unambiguously, and plainly, and literally. This is further proof to me of the Divine Inspiration of Scripture.

    Heb 9:26 “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of himself. ”

    Comments welcome.

    Much love
    Brother-in-Christ

  • Redeemed

    WARNING! Dear sister Carolyn, the link you gave spelling out the evils of Calvinism is full of evil itself. That is why we must “dig deeper” and examine the source.

    This Tim Warner may have his ducks in a row as far as Calvinism/Reformed is concerned, but he believes in Baptismal Regeneration, that water baptism saves, he does not believe in eternal security of the believer, he is a posttribber, does not believe in the Trinity, etc.

    This guy is a mess! I recommend that Debs remove this link lest it cause someone to stumble.

    Dear Carolyn, we all make mistakes and we are here to watch each other’s back.

  • Leon Petersen wrote:

    Hi!
    This is an excellent sermon by John on predestination and the like.

    Youtube video (audio sermon)

    Much love

    Excellent lies!

  • Leon Petersen

    Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

    Leon Petersen wrote:

    Hi!
    This is an excellent sermon by John on predestination and the like.

    Youtube video (audio sermon)

    Much love

    Excellent lies!

    Hi Thomas
    Please point me to a comprehensive exegesis of Rom 8:28-30, and I promise I will read and consider.
    To date, John MacArthur’s exegesis stands. Sound and Scriptural.

    Love in Christ
    Leon

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Leon

    Hi!
    This is an excellent sermon by John on predestination and the like.
    [edited by DTW: removed]

    Youtube video (audio sermon)

    Much love

    ———–

    We understand Calvinism all to well here at DTW and dont need the false teacher John to explain it to us.

    Please see article explaining What it Really Means to be “Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated”– The Biblical Truth – See more at: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/#sthash.Pcn8eC1t.dpuf

    Much love :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Leon

    >> And here is an example of the word “blood” denoting “death”
    Mat 27:24 “When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
    Mat 27:25 “Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.”
    The meaning here as well, is clear. His DEATH be on us, and on our children.
    Pilate declares that he is innocent of the “DEATH of this Just man”

    If you want to twist scripture to suit your own purposes then you will make it sound any way you want it to sound.

    It is clear you deny the power of the precious blood of Jesus Christ as well.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leon

    If you give me a few hours I will give you a full exegesis of Romans 8, 9 and 10.

    [Edited: There you go leon: Calvinism’s Last Stand Totally Dismantled – A look at Romans Chapters 8, 9 and 10 – See more at: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/#sthash.HqSx1Hai.dpuf%5D

  • Redeemed

    Listening to MacArthur’s interpretation/explanation of God’s foreknowledge reveals him to be a master of scripture twisting. What a snow job! I hope Leon does not swallow it hook line and sinker and instead opens his mind to the truth. There is more than ample information on this site to refute the lies that are ensnaring people into this false teaching.

    This should stir the righteous indignation and downright anger against the perversion of God’s Word and His character.

  • Leon Petersen

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Dear Leon

    If you want to twist scripture to suit your own purposes then you will make it sound any way you want it to sound.

    Axiom

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leon

    >> Axiom

    No Leon. This is the GREAT MYSTERY of Calvinists to twist scripture, you are masters at it.

  • Carolyn

    In the video clip of MacArthur’s Calvinism – See how cleverly MacArthur exchanges the word for predestination…to “predetermined”. There is a gigantic lie right there!!!. He predestined those who he had foreknowledge of to be conformed to the righteousness of his Son. He did not predetermine them to hell.

    If you believe that fallacy, then you have to ignore a great many other scriptures that flatly contradict such a preposterous notion.

    Leon, you are blinded by the M of Div. Even the educated get deceived by their own foolish lies. Stand back, and see the big picture. I pray God grant you eyes to see and ears to hear.

    Just listening to this clip, I can hear lie after lie. We aren’t trying to rescue God’s reputation. The Bible does that very well, if he would just read that instead of Calvin’s distortions.

  • Carolyn

    Redeemed: It has taken me a bit to reply to you on this because I have too many things vying for my attention these days, but here’s a little bit of my thinking. Here’s what you wrote on June 30: “WARNING! Dear sister Carolyn, the link you gave spelling out the evils of Calvinism is full of evil itself. That is why we must “dig deeper” and examine the source.

    This Tim Warner may have his ducks in a row as far as Calvinism/Reformed is concerned, but he believes in Baptismal Regeneration, that water baptism saves, he does not believe in eternal security of the believer, he is a posttribber, does not believe in the Trinity, etc.

    This guy is a mess! I recommend that Debs remove this link lest it cause someone to stumble.

    Dear Carolyn, we all make mistakes and we are here to watch each other’s back.”

    I still haven’t had much time to look over his material so I’m not endorsing him. I did look over what he says about OSAS. He equates it with Calvinism’s perseverence of the saints, which is wrong. But I do agree with his conclusions on the Biblical view of OSAS vs apostasy from the faith through unbelief.

    excerpt: “The Biblical View
    Let me say at the outset, that I believe the RCC doctrine of salvation by faith plus works is a false gospel that cannot save anyone. I am convinced the Scriptures teach salvation is by God’s grace, not by our own merits. It is a free gift offered to all who believe. Salvation is gained by faith alone, and works have no part whatever in our being saved, or in maintaining our salvation.

    Now, some might assume this means one can never depart from God. But this is not true. Many passages indicate true Christians can be lost. How? Through UNBELIEF. One must believe the gospel in order to be saved, and one must continue to believe the gospel to continue “in Christ.” It is as simple as that. Works don’t play any part in initial “believing,” nor do they play a part in your continued “believing.” It is initially by faith, and it continues to be by faith throughout the Christian life.

    All of this is taught explicitly in Scripture. In the following series of articles, we will display the evidence for you to judge. OSAS may have some Scriptures that seem to support it. But, there are many Scriptures for which it simply cannot account. Likewise, the RCC might have a couple of verses from James that seem to support their teaching, but there are several Scriptures that flatly contradict their teaching regarding salvation. The truth can be found only by harmonising all of the Scriptures on this topic. The view presented in these articles fully preserves the idea of salvation by grace through faith, not by works. It also integrates the many warnings in Scripture against departing from God.

    Salvation by grace through faith alone is at the heart of the Gospel message. While eternal life is a free gift of God’s grace, it is applied to the individual by faith. Man cannot in any way save himself, but he can access the grace of God by simply choosing to accept the offer of salvation through the blood of Christ, when he is drawn by the Holy Spirit. It is through the exercise of the will that he responds to God by faith. Faith is simply believing what God has said, and resting in that promise. A person who is saved by God’s grace through exercising faith continues to believe the Gospel throughout his Christian life. It takes no effort on our part to believe. We simply respond and surrender to the drawing of the Spirit. In fact, true faith is resting in God’s promise, not clinging to it by works of our own merit. It is obvious then, that continuing to maintain one’s faith throughout life requires no effort, but a continued resting in the finished work of Christ. Make no mistake. The warnings in God’s Word are real. For example, in John 15:1-7, Jesus repeatedly warned the disciples to continue “in Christ.” For those who do not heed the warnings, the result is to be “burned.” Many other passages include similar warnings. The early Church held this view. “For when the soul that is united with Christ forsakes its faith, it is given over to perpetual death, viz., eternal punishment.” (Hippolytus, On Daniel, vi). We come to God by faith, but it is through unbelief that one departs from God. By maintaining faith we persevere to the end. But, through unbelief we can depart from God and be eternally damned. Jesus taught that in the last days many would abandon the faith. Paul called this the “falling away.” We need to be aware of the Scriptural teaching regarding our security in Christ, because the danger of apostasy is real.”

    My view agrees with this excerpt which is to say that we can fall into unbelief at any point along our walk of faith. I may differ from some of the thinking on this site in that regard, but that is my present stance and what I see in the Scriptures. I don’t believe that we can ever be lost because of stupid choices or mistakes in judgement, or even falling temporarily into sin but I do believe that if we persist in wilful sins, or unbelief once we have been convicted by the Spirit, we CAN fall away, become apostate and end up denying the Lord who bought us. You may say that we were never saved to begin with, but I say we were.

    This understanding of OSAS doctrine is not a departure from the true gospel message as far as I can see(therefore not a reason to divide over or excommunicate me, I hope). It’s a question only of WHEN is unbelief acceptable and when is it unacceptable. It is never acceptable. We must continue in faith throughout our life. And as long as we live by faith in the Son of God, despite testings, trials, persecutions, temptations, stumbling, perplexities, storms, etc. He will be faithful to give us strength and help to endure to the end.

    It is true that we all make mistakes and we don’t have perfect clarity. I am always grateful for a demonstration of grace and respectful debate. Thank you. And thanks for holding me up in prayer and having my best interests in mind. I know you do.

  • Carolyn wrote:

    My view agrees with this excerpt which is to say that we can fall into unbelief at any point along our walk of faith. I may differ from some of the thinking on this site in that regard, but that is my present stance and what I see in the Scriptures. I don’t believe that we can ever be lost because of stupid choices or mistakes in judgement, or even falling temporarily into sin but I do believe that if we persist in wilful sins, or unbelief once we have been convicted by the Spirit, we CAN fall away, become apostate and end up denying the Lord who bought us. You may say that we were never saved to begin with, but I say we were.

    May I ask you a few questions?

    1) What is the difference between continuous sins and temporary sins? Don’t you think both have the same devastating effect – separation from God (Isaiah 59:1-2)? If both have the same effect, then we dare not make a distinction between the two.
    2) Did Eve sin wilfully or was she beguiled (enticed) to sin?
    3) Would you say Solomon is in heaven? If so, why? (Remember, his sins were exceedingly wilful).
    4) What did Jesus mean when He said: “But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” (Luke 22:32). Bear in mind that He did not say “that thy lose not thy faith” or “depart from the faith” but “that thy faith FAIL not.”
    5) Would you say that Jesus is praying the same prayer for us than the one He prayed for Peter? If so, why would his prayer fail to keep us on the strait and narrow when it was so successful in Peter’s behalf?
    6) What did Paul mean when he said: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Php 1:6. Paul was confident in the Lord; why aren’t you?
    7) How would you interpret 2 Corinthians 7:10: “For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.” (2 Co 7:10). Would you ever regret your salvation and resort to unbelief and apostasy? If not, why do you believe some other children of God would want to do such a silly thing?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Thomas and Carolyn

    I have moved all your comments concerning OSAS to the following article Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

  • John Calvin partnered with the authorities of his time to do his dirty work for him – to murder his opponents. What does that tell you about Calvinists who partner with the United Nations? Oh yeah, they may not be murdering their opponents but they are surely working toward that goal. How do I know? Well this is what Fred Butler of the blog “Hip and Thigh” (with the logo “Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter” – Judges 15:8) said to Bob Johnson in an interview he had with him called “An interview with a Crackpot.”

    Me: Well Bob, are you of the opinion that the world will be under one government in the end times and that the anti-Christ will rule over the world from that government?

    Bob: Oh, yes. That is what Revelation teaches.

    Me: And do you believe the rapture of the church will take place before that government comes to power?

    Bob: Oh, yes. That is what the Bible teaches.

    Me: If that is the case, Bob, then would it not be better to work to hasten the day of the rapture, so if Al Mohler is working to create a one world government, we should be helping his cause. The faster the one world government gets into place, the quicker the Lord comes, right?

    Bob: Some one else asked me that earlier…. it doesn’t work that way.

    Now, now, don’t be surprised when Calvinists partner with Satan himself to hasten his downfall. It just shows you how these guys think. How on earth can anyone hasten the Rapture when God in his sovereign will has decided when it should take place? Calvinists boast that they are the pristine elect few who honor, revere and uphold God’s absolute sovereignty and yet they think they can overrule God’s absolute sovereingty by hastening Antichrist’s appearance on earth and hence the Rapture. Is this not perhaps the reason why John MacArthur, contrary to Calvinist doctrine, believes in the Rapture – to hasten the coming of the Antichrist?

    Well , in that case, they should not only invite Albert Mohler to share their pulpit but also little anitichrists like Brian McClaren, Tony Jones, Rob Bell, Doug Paggit, and many others in the Emergent Church fold, because they have mastered the art to invite and help Antichrist to take over the world.

    Furthermore, Jesus (not the Jesus of the Calvinists) said that the Antichrist is going to slaughter a multitude of believers during the Great Tribulation. Now we can understand why Calvinists would like to hasten his appearance on the earth. They are merely perpetuating their god, John Calvin’s infamous murderous and bloody history of “Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter.”

    The infamous spirit of John Calvin is still roaming the earth and “gracing” the pulpits of the Calvinists.

  • Greg

    “I believe in free will and I believe that repentance of sin is an ongoing essential part of your relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior” so why dont you believe that jesus died and rose again for all your sins?

  • […] Please read:  John MacArthur – Transformation of Grace Community Church […]

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John MacArthur - Transformation of Grace Community Church

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