John MacArthur – Transformation of Grace Community Church
This information has been painstakingly put together by Bob Johnson over a period of several years. It’s shocking and I believe it’s the truth. Bob has been attacked by John MacArthur and Phil Johnson who have tried to discredit him, but the facts remain standing strong.
I am going to present this information only because I stand for the truth AT ALL COSTS. [Edited by DTW: 31 Mar 2010 – I have made a public apology too everyone I told that MacArthur is legitimate. I am very very sorry for this. I trusted MacArthur and I was deceived and I led others to believe he was ok. Every bit of credibility I gave John MacArthur I retract. I did not understand the doctrine of Calvinism at the time, now I do. Please see here for my sincerest apology: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/30/what-do-you-do-when]
Now before anyone gets all carried away, I am not a Calvinist. I am a born again Christian and my ‘denomination’ is what lies between the pages of the Word of God. I believe in free will and I believe that repentance of sin is an ongoing essential part of your relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. We are not predestined, or elected by God before the foundation of the world (for biblical predestination understanding please see What it Really Means to be Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated – The Biblical Truth); I won’t even get onto the topic of John Calvin as that’s another story all on it’s own and Calvinism has it’s roots in Rome.
Are there people who are genuinely saved under GCC – Absolutely, when they find out the truth as to what Calvinism is all about, they will leave there sooner or later. God knows our hearts. He knows what we think, He knows what we believe, He knows everything about us. I believe we are all judged on what we know up to a certain point in time. (I am NOT talking about sin here, or using this as an excuse to say, “oh I never accepted Jesus, because I didn’t know anything, or no one told me.) Because the Bible commands you to study to find yourself approved anyhow, so no one has any excuse. And if you have the Holy Spirit in your life you will never get something so wrong or believe and follow something so wrong as the doctrine of Calvinism and the fruit of John MacArthur speaks for itself.Now when the Holy Spirit reveals to us what’s really going on behind the scenes, this is when we are now faced with a massive decision of “should I stay or should I go” – will you accept the false teachings that are slithering its way in, or will I stand firm on the Word of God and warn others about what is happening and get out because you will not tolerate men insulting Jesus Christ! When the Holy Spirit has warned you, you can’t ever say to Jesus one day, “I didn’t know”, because you did know, but you CHOSE (free will) TO IGNORE IT. And in doing so you continued to stay and support ungodly doctrines.
Even if John MacArthur carried on preaching what sounded like the greatest gospel from the pulpit (which we know is not because it’s Calvinistic) – he will slowly but surely lead his congregation astray more and more astray as he turns to Rome along with every other denomination in these end times.
Will his preaching start to change? Will it become a more emergent gospel? It appears has as he is embracing contemplative spirituality for some time: John MacArthur and Dallas Willard – Two Contemplating Calvinists
Does John MacArthur have to make a choice like the rest of us to follow Jesus Christ 100% or follow Satan instead? Absolutely.
We ALL sit in the same position. Jesus Christ is LORD, He is our KING, He judges ALL, NO ONE gets an ‘immunity card’ from GOD.
Ok let’s get onto the info shall we…
—————–
The Transformation of John Macarthur’s Grace Community Church
How Change Agents are Transitioning GCC into the New World Order
Introduction –
by Bob Johnson On January 2, 2005,
John MacArthur gave a sermon to his congregation in which he described the state of his church. In that sermon John MacArthur stated, “I feel like part of the ministry I must discharge before the Lord and you is a ministry of warning about danger. Our church is not in particular danger from some dominating iniquity. It is not in particular danger from some infiltrating heresy. It is not in danger from some loss of resources financially or human. Everything you can see on the surface looks to be good. And we would have every reason to think we stand, and still be on the brink of a fall.”
John MacArthur said that his church was not in particular danger from infiltrating heresy. This paper will show that a dangerous heresy has infiltrated his church; a heresy known generally as the church growth movement. And this paper will show that this movement, being backed by globalists and being used to fulfill their one-world agenda, is now manipulating GCC into that same agenda.
John MacArthur said that his church is not in danger from some dominating iniquity.This paper will show that John MacArthur, being the dominant figure in his church, by disobeying the doctrine of separation, has allowed men to speak at his church and has allowed men to occupy leadership positions in his church, who, professing to be Christians, are actually dedicated to this one-world agenda.
John MacArthur said that everything you can see on the surface of his church looks to be good. I have been to his church, and I have attended his ministries, and I didn’t have to look beyond the surface to see that everything there is not good. I didn’t have to look beyond the surface of his church in order to see the presence of the Purpose Driven Church (PDC) model or the dialectic sessions employed by that model.
Nor did I have to look beyond the surface to see that John MacArthur’s international ministry, a ministry dedicated to “training church leaders worldwide,” is a church growth organization now partnering with foreign governments.In his “state of the church” sermon, John Macarthur said that GCC could be on the brink of a fall. GCC has gone beyond that brink and has now fallen. GCC is not holy, peculiar, sanctified and set apart, but rather, is a church that has now found common ground with Satanic agents pushing the one-world agenda via the church growth movement.
Allow me, by way of introduction, to say how I became interested in the goings on at GCC. My interest in GCC began in March 2005 when a local pastor invited me to accompany him to the GCC Pastor’s Conference being held that same month. Wanting to get information about the conference, I went to the GCC website where I noticed that Dr. Albert Mohler was to be a keynote speaker. I’d never heard of Dr. Mohler.
When curiosity pressed and an internet search ended, I had discovered information about Dr. Mohler that was not in accord with his Christian profession. I had discovered that Dr. Mohler was a Founding Fellow of the “think tank” of a UN-NGO. I had discovered that a UN-NGO is a non-governmental organization that is listed with the UN and that serves the UN and its one-world agenda. And therefore, I concluded that it must necessarily follow, that Dr. Mohler, being a Founding Fellow of this UN-NGO’s “think tank” which serves the UN and its agenda, must also serve the UN agenda. (It has since been confirmed to me by a colleague of Dr. Mohler’s that all the Fellows of the “think tank” of this UN-NGO are dedicated to the principles of the charter of the UN).
Knowing that the UN agenda is satanic and knowing that this agenda includes the destruction of Biblical Christianity, I wondered why John Macarthur would invite a man dedicated to this agenda into his church and into his pulpit. Was John Macarthur aware of Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation? (I have since learned that Dr. Mohler holds leadership positions in at least two organizations that serve the UN globalist agenda as NGO’s.)
I proceeded to write a letter to each of the members of the GCC elder board. I warned them all of Dr. Mohler’s associations. I received a reply from elder, Phil Johnson, dated March 23, 2005. Regarding Dr. Mohler’s associations, Mr. Johnson wrote, “We may not agree with all his associations, but nothing in Scripture demands that we separate from a true brother in Christ just because we may disagree with him on where he draws the circle of his own fellowship.” Is this a true statement? Is there nothing in Scripture that demands separation from a professed Christian who is affiliated with satanic evil (the UN)? Many verses in Scripture demand that Christians separate from evil and 2 Thess. 3:14 demands separation from professed Christians who are disobedient: “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him that he may be ashamed.” Scripture does demand separation from Dr. Mohler.
Why didn’t the GCC elders seem to be alarmed by Dr. Mohler’s affiliations? Why were they willing to ignore Biblical commands in order to continue a relationship with Dr. Mohler? Being dissatisfied with the reply I’d received from the GCC elder board, I then decided to make phone calls to several other GCC pastors in order to inform them of Dr. Mohler’s UN connection. Surely, they would all be concerned. I told them all that Dr. Mohler was a Fellow of a UN-NGO. What was their response? The pastors all angrily denied this easily verifiable fact. I then decided to write letters to about ten more GCC pastors. I expressed to them my concern that Dr. Mohler was a Fellow of a UN-NGO.
I received a reply from one pastor, Rick Mclean, responding for all, who, putting himself in the position of God, told me that the information I’d given them regarding Dr. Mohler’s associations “was of no eternal consequence.” This pastor also told me to never contact them again regarding this matter. In November 2005, a member of GCC agreed to meet me for a discussion. His name was George. I had asked George during a phone conversation if he’d be willing to have a discussion with me concerning some things at GCC that I had found troubling.
Two days after agreeing to meet with me, I received an email from George informing me that our meeting couldn’t take place. He told me that after checking with his church’s authorities, those authorities had decided not to allow our meeting to take place. George also informed me that only one man at GCC would meet with me. This was the same pastor who had already written to tell me to never contact them again. The email that George sent me was cc’d or copied to this same pastor and George informed me that any future correspondence I might have with him would also be cc’d to this pastor. The GCC authorities were exercising strict control over this situation. If Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation was “of no eternal consequence” according to pastors at GCC, then why were they taking such extraordinary measures in order to prevent the exposure of that affiliation? Why were they willing to go to such lengths in order to keep knowledge of that affiliation hidden from their church membership?
George was not allowed to meet me for a discussion in a local coffee shop. In not allowing one Christian to meet another, the GCC authorities had taken authority not given them in the Word of God. In not allowing one Christian to meet another, the GCC authorities were exercising a type of control that is cult-like. Believing the GCC authority’s behavior to be deceitful, and knowing they didn’t want Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation exposed, I decided to do just that at their March 2006 Pastor’s Conference. With Dr. Mohler again invited to be a keynote speaker, I stood outside their church and handed out flyers to the arriving pastors. The flyer was titled “Al Mohler and the United Nations.”
The flyer basically contained 2 facts: Al Mohler was a Founding Fellow of the Research Institute (think tank) of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) and that the ERLC was a UN-NGO. How did the GCC officials respond to these flyers being handed out on the public sidewalk outside their church? A GCC pastor, Eric Bancroft, with the head of security in tow, approached me and angrily told me that my flyer contained “all lies”; he then warned me that if I was to set foot on GCC property, I’d be arrested.
When I left GCC that evening, some GCC officials followed me and with the head of security present, they photographed my car and wrote down my license plate number. What began as an effort to warn the saints at GCC about Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation didn’t end with my threatened arrest. The GCC authorities had tried to keep Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation hidden from their membership. I couldn’t help but wonder what else they may be hiding. “Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.”
So, I decided to take a closer look into their ministries. GCC has eight subministries listed on their website. Two of these subministries are singles ministries. In looking through these two ministry’s web pages, I began to notice the presence of certain “buzzwords” common to the Purpose Driven Church (PDC) model. I noticed that much of the language used to describe the activities of these ministries was identical to the language used in the PDC model. Being very familiar with both the “buzzwords” and structure of the PDC, I strongly suspected that these two ministries were run on that model. My suspicions were confirmed after I attended both of these ministry’s Friday night “Bible studies.”
It was then that I realized that the church growth movement (CGM)/PDC model had infiltrated GCC in at least their two singles ministries. Knowing that the PDC movement had already spread like wildfire across America’s churches and knowing that once this movement gets a foothold in a church it will spread like cancer throughout the entire church body, I knew that it was my Christian duty to warn the saints at GCC about this real danger within. In the summer of 2006, I wrote a letter intended for the Christian remnant at GCC in which I warned them of this dangerous church growth infiltration.
It was titled “A Wake Up Call to the Saints at Grace Community Church.” While standing on the sidewalk across the street, I handed out copies to the congregants as they left the church. I handed out this letter of warning for three consecutive Sundays. On the second Sunday, as I handed out the “Wake-up Call,” the police were called. A black and white unit stopped and an officer approached me and told me that they had received a call claiming that I was harassing the congregation. I was handing out my letter to Christians as they left the church. I never harassed anyone and no one had complained to me.
Why were the police called? On that same day, in what could be construed as another act of intimidation, a GCC official approached me and told me that the GCC authorities were considering a lawsuit against me. Since handing out this letter of warning, I have continued to look into the activities of various ministries at GCC and I have continued to find activity indicating the presence of the church growth movement. For example, I have seen that a GCC ministry called The Master’s Academy International (TMAI), which states that its mission is to “train church leaders worldwide,” is actually a church growth organization that is now partnering with foreign governments. (A goal of the church growth movement is to merge the church into a partnership with business and government. This is called Communitarianism.)
Later, I will describe both the leadership and the activities of TMAI in detail. Grace Community Church (GCC) [www.gracechurch.org], pastored by John MacArthur is being subverted and transformed by the church growth movement (CGM). This paper will give a description of the CGM, how it manifests itself at GCC, and how it has infiltrated GCC.
Part I
How the Church Growth Movement Manifests Itself at GCC (The Guild and The Foundry)
The Master’s Academy International (TMAI) Leadership
TMAI Leader’s Transformational Language
TMAI Training Centers
TMAI Brazil
TMAI Honduras
TMAI South Africa
TMAI New Zealand
TMAI Mexico
TMAI Russia
TMAI-Philippines
The TMAI Leadership Community
Part IV
How the Church Growth Movement Infiltrated GCC
John Macarthur’s Ecumenical Roots
Deborah, thanks for the information about the AWANA programs.
This program was recently introduced into the church that my girlfriend attends, and she was asked to spearhead it. After doing minimal research, I concluded that it was ecumenical and the fruit it produces , is false conversions without repentance.
To Mark Penrith
I’m interested in your librivox audio button on your blog. How do you insert it in your blog? With a widget?
I have also noticed that you have labeled me a an Armenian in your list. Dead wrong, friend. I am no Armenian. Just a plain child of God.
this video exposes how macarthur’s study bible copyrights are owned by roman catholics and his bible is based on the vatican version of the bible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pi5apqU6rc&feature=related
I sure hope at the end of the day, after you have finished exposing all the errors of the church, that Jesus still makes the cut.
Grace and Peace.
[Edited: Jerry please just stay at the Emergent http://prophets-priests-poets.info/2010/04/05/fools-rush-in website where the Jesus spoken of there is a false Christ.]
Jerry
>> I sure hope at the end of the day, after you have finished exposing all the errors of the church, that Jesus still makes the cut.
Go read your Bible – – that is the Jesus Christ speaking directly to you
Oh my God you have dented my faith in the bible so badly!. I read where Jesus said HE would build His church AND of course warned believers to be careful of some false teachings.
It seems to me that Jesus is doing such a bad job because all people He is using to build His church are according to you false!
I wonder if what Jesus said was true OR if you are now the new Lord with authority over our Lord Jesus the head of the church!!!!!
Truth
1) you said…”be careful of some false teachings”.
‘some’ false teaching? Well there is your first problem. No! ALL FALSE teaching, and that includes the diabolical teaching of predestination or Election.
2) Jesus is doing a PERFECT job, He always will – its the people who wont listen to Him and his warning. You happy to know that John MacArthur denies the blood of Jesus Christ? (is that the some of the false teaching you are willing to ignore?)
3) Of course Jesus is the way the TRUTH and the life – and if your faith is so easily dented then I suggest you get on your knees and pray and ask Jesus why you are so easily dented. Bad things are going to happen, liars will come and steal from you, they rob you of the truth and then you blame Jesus for it? The Bible warns you of this over and over and over again. So when these things happen…what do you do? What you do is you learn, you grow, you pick up your bible, READ IT and move on down the narrow path – you have learnt a VALUABLE LIFE CHANGING lesson that has saved your soul. Now you can warn others.
Regarding your very nasty little sentence at the end. I will just ignore that.
I have enjoyed reading the comments here. I was raised in a Christian home, not Reformed or Arminian, just God fearing, Bible believing parents, who taught me that salvation is by Grace through Faith.
In my early twenties, I was sucked into Calvinism, but was not a 5 pointer. My main reason was because of my “experience” in which I felt life was a big game and I had no choice but to turn to Christ. I now believe that what I was experiencing was the effects of the prayer of my family. The conviction of sin was so great.
It wasn’t until a few years ago that through a study on faith I realized that Faith is not a work, it is also not a gift.In Ephesians we are dead in the sense of being under the PENTALTY of death, but not dead to recognizing sin and truth. All men are under the curse of death, and though we are powerless to stop sinning, it does not mean that man is unable to recognize his sin.
Reguardless of how vile a sinner a person is, if I tell him the truth that his earthly house is on fire, he has the ability to believe or reject that truth. His sinful condition does not affect his judgement. 1 Corinthians 4:4 makes it clear that the god of this world has blinded the minds of the “UNBELIEVING”. Those who refuse to believe what Jesus Christ came and plainly told us concerning our desperate condition and our need of His saving work on the cross, are those who are blinded to the Gospel. God does not elect some to believe or others to reject the truth.
First dent – “Oh my God” – Using His name in vain
Second dent – Not reading full context and getting stuck at a verse
Third dent…
Really Truth, there are a lot of dents and it is not all in your faith… Use some discernment and search the Scriptures properly.
Correction 2 Corinthians 4:4
I would say first, John MaCarthur is accused of so much that is false. Her also has publicly taught against both emergent church and Purpose driven life. He also published a book about some conceptions in Christianity as erroneous with a chapter on purpose driven life. I somewhat think, there is probably quite a bit that people try to use as not always truthful that most times in an accusation like this more then likely strings people like this along because he is a pastor of his church. Even if true-I just do not see it as one of these things he gets all worried baout. Over the years there has been so much lied about Dr. John-I think unless a member of his church-he will not be too worried about this
Valerie,
Good comment. Don’t Calvinists eliminate free will? And that bothers me since free will is biblical. We do have free will. And doesn’t the Bible say somewhere that we are chosen or elected with God’s foreknowledge? Meaning He knew who would believe and so he chose those who would believe. And the Calvinists try to tell us that faith is a gift when it isn’t. That verse they quote means salvation is a gift, but not faith.
David
If you read my article carefully you will see that I was distraught after finding out the truth regarding John MacArthur. Please go and read the links below the article too and the comments made regarding the ‘Blood of Jesus’. That is not something to be taken lightly. And even though he preaches against Purpose Driven church and life he actually does used the model. Anyhow, please go through all the info carefully and never take anyone for granted.
bob
>> Meaning He knew who would believe and so he chose those who would believe.
Yes, God knew before we were born who would accept him and who wouldn’t. But we do not know who will follow Him and who wont, hence we preach the gospel to everyone of every nationality, race, etc. So that they may hear the Word of God and make a DECISION on what to with what they have heard.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is so simple. When things start getting complicated in a doctrine that is when you put up your little red flag and start to pannic LOL.
Deborah said:
AMEN!! Perfectly stated! The only caveat to that is that so many have watered and dumbed it down to mean nothing. No repentance, no committment. But that does not nullify the fact that the Gospel is very umcomplicated and straightforward. It is man who has messed it up.
One thing that I would like to add is that it is not our words when sharing with a lost person, it is the Word of God that has the power to save because the Holy Spirit is the author and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and leads to salvation. Too many times Gospel presenters depend upon their own words rather than God’s Word. It never returns void and has great power!!
Burning Lamp
>> it is not our words when sharing with a lost person, it is the Word of God that has the power to save because the Holy Spirit is the author and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and leads to salvation.
Absolutely. And this is something I will never forget.
Bob
>> I don’t follow the Book of Enoch.
You don’t follow the book of Enoch or read it, yet you are a full on into the occult version of the Nephilim? And serpent seed teaching? That is why I asked if you followed/read the Book of Enoch…because I noticed a lot of Nephilim type stuff being spoken off. I mean, if you are going to read all kinds of other funny books then you may as well read the book of Enoch and get it over and done with. Just my thoughts.
Deborah, (or who ever it was who posted these articles by Bob)
You have been taken in by a false teacher. I have interacted with and answered many of Bob’s phony charges since I first encountered him out in front of Grace Church in May of 2006 handing out his ridiculous paper outlining his conspiracy theory about Grace succumbing to TMQ and Hegelian-Marxist ideology. I have attempted to maintain an update on my personal blog of his goings on. John Coleman, the LA house preacher who entertains Bob’s lunatic ideas on his RAM radio webcast, refuses to let me come on and challenge his assertions. Both he and Bob, and Bob Klenck, the person who shapes a lot of B.J.’s conspiracy, dodge my inquiries challenging the foundational claims against Grace.
I would hope you will inoculate yourself against Bob’s wild and unfounded accusations by reading over my posts answering his claims:
Part 1 is here: http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2006/07/mending-chipped-ceramics.html
Part 2 is here: http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2009/11/bob-johnson-saga-continued.html
Fred
Fred
I realised long ago that there was something not right with Bob due to his links to Barbara Aho from watch. pair .com
See conversation with him here: There are over 91 comments, so its gonna be a long read, but you will see WHY I say Bob is not biblically correct – and he is way off the track regarding certain issues.
HOWEVER, I have checked out some of Bob’s info and it is true – mostly due to the fact that I have known about ‘some’ of the info he mentioned for some time – but I ignored it because I didn’t want to believe it was true. So for the purposes of ‘factual information’ and John MacArthur following Purpose Driven models that I agree with.
Secondly, John MacArthur denies the blood of Jesus Christ and this is something that can’t be over looked. In fact if we were to remove all of Bob’s information and just use the FACT that John MacArthur says that Jesus’ blood is just liquid, it makes everything that Bob said quite dull in comparison. Also READ ALL the comments in this article (scroll up and start from the top)
Anyhow, I agree with you that Bob is not OK on a BIBLICAL basis and his links with watch. pair. com are very concerning – who are into some weird stuff and are very much consumed with the the occult and serpent seed bloodlines.
I went to read your website:
— I see that you view the ushering in of the anti-Christ and NWO a conspiracy? Do you really believe this?
— Are you are 5 point calvinist? You believe you are chosen/pre-destined by God to be saved?
— Do you understand what the Purpose Driven model is?
Deborah,
This is a repost. I think you noted something about being off line so my comment may not have made it through.
You write,
John MacArthur denies the blood of Jesus Christ and this is something that can’t be over looked.
This is something of an old myth. John has tried to respond to this on many occasions. The most comprehensive response can be located here:
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-44
and of course the Q&A he did back in the late 80s before the IFCA conference:
You ask:
I see that you view the ushering in of the anti-Christ and NWO a conspiracy? Do you really believe this?
Yes. Nothing can usher in the anti-christ any faster than what God has ordained. I mean, you do believe prophecy will be fulfilled, correct? At some point, the anti-christ has to be ushered in, right? It has to happen for the Bible to be true. However, what is pointed to by Bob and other tin-foil hat theologians is exaggerated and ridiculous. The U.N., for example, in it’s current form, is grossly incompetent to usher in any NWO of any kind.
You ask,
Are you are 5 point calvinist? You believe you are chosen/pre-destined by God to be saved?
Yes. This is what the Bible teaches. See for example, Ephesians 1. Are you of the opinion God doesn’t chose or predestinate anyone? That is hard to believe seeing the doctrine is taught clearly throughout the pages of scripture.
You ask,
Do you understand what the Purpose Driven model is?
Yes. And what Bob is saying it is with the TQM and Hegelian-Marxist nonsense is not it.
Hopefully this get through this time,
Fred
Fred
On denying the power of Jesus’ Blood to wash away sin and cover us when we are saved. John MacArthur says that Jesus’ Blood is just liquid. Is it a myth that this is in John MacArthur’s current study bible and has not bothered to remove this old myth.
There is a big difference between being chosen by God (being selected or handpicked) vs God knowing our futures before we are born therefore He knows who will accept His Son and who wont.
You said your comment was a re-post? Sorry I didn’t see it before. Apologies if it was accidentally deleted. It’s up now.
No apologies needed. I understand the quirkiness of the internet.
On the blood of Jesus, Jesus’ blood was just blood. Unless you are attributing to it some magical, divine properties that cause it to function in some other capacity unrevealed to us in scripture. Do you think the blood of Jesus was more than just human blood? If you do, what exactly did His blood do beyond just being red, and liquid? I am assuming here that you have an understanding of the theological language of atonement. That being, what Christ’s death accomplished, the legality of his death, the turning away of wrath, etc.
You write,
There is a big difference between being chosen by God (being selected or handpicked) vs God knowing our futures before we are born therefore He knows who will accept His Son and who wont.
Yes there is. Being chosen by God unconditionally is biblical, where as God having to gain information, i.e., know who will accept His son and who won’t, is heretical. The first reflects the teaching of Scripture, the second reflects Pelagian, Arian, Socinian concepts witnessed today among groups like the Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other forms of open theism.
I hope John reads the posts explaining away Calvinist/Reformed Theology using the Word of God. John is assasinating the character of God to say He who would predetermine or predestinate anyone to hell.
Fred
First you say, “I am assuming here that you have an understanding of the theological language of atonement.” No I don’t understand big words, I prefer the simplicity of Salvation and being born again. 🙂
I think the confusion comes in where WOF love to “plead the Blood of Jesus’ over oneself and others and everything for that matter, turning the blood of Jesus into a magic ritual of sorts. This is based on OT covenant where the blood of the animal would be sprinkled on doorsteps as a covering, offering spiritual protection, etc. However, this was a temporary covenant. This blood needed to be repeated daily and yearly.) This is law. We don’t do this. If we do this, we admonish Jesus’ sacrifice and his shed blood on the cross for us once and for all. If we do this blood covering we also shun the Holy Spirit. So yes, this is totally wrong.
However in the context of salvation, Jesus’ Blood is precious and symbolises LIFE!
In the NT God would later send His only Son providing a new covenant, or New Testament through Jesus Christ. Jesus would die in the place of all sinners. His sacrifice fulfilled completely what the Old Testament covenant meant to. His blood would remove the sins of the world for all who put their faith in Him. This sacrifice would never have to be repeated; it is an eternal covenant. And we have the Holy Spirit who then comes to abide in us, who leads us, comforts us, and convicts us of sin. The Holy Spirit in us, makes us want too obey God and live a life that is pleasing to Him.
1 Peter 1:18-19, “For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.”
The death and life of Jesus Christ is absolutely the most precious thing God has offered us.
John the Baptist called Jesus the John 1:29 “Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world”
The Lamb of course, referenced the unblemished animal sacrifice of the OT. There are many references to sacrificial offerings in the Old Testament.
It is the blood of Jesus that cleans our conscience from sin and it’s influence upon us. When we receive the blood of Jesus we receive a new conscience, we become a new person, that desires to serve and obey God, a conscience that enjoys obeying God:
Hebrews 9:13-14 “For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”
Rev 1:5-6 “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father–to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
The holy blood that was in Jesus was poured out for you and me to make atonement for our sins so that we could have a new relationship with God. God calls this new relationship “The New Covenant”. It is the blood of Jesus that seals this new covenant that God made with people:
Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’
Spiritually feeding on Jesus body and drinking His blood will fill you with His very life, because the life is in the blood. Food gives us nourishment, strength, and satisfaction. Jesus is our spiritual source of nourishment, strength, and satisfaction. (I am NOT speaking about Catholic Eucharist mass here and their perverted way of looking at communion)
John 6:53-57 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54″Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 “For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”
Jesus taught His disciples to remember His sacrifice for them. And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.
Luke 22:19-20 19 “Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, 20 “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Blood covering washes away our sin and presents us holy and unblamable and spotless in God’s sight. If order for us to come before God, into His presence, you can ONLY come to the Father THROUGH Jesus Christ His Son. Once you accept Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross to save us and repent of your sin, His Blood covers you that you can appear spotless before God. If it was not for Jesus’ Blood you would not be able to stand before God! Jesus brings you into God’s presence and says, ‘Father, here is Fred” 🙂 – That’s an example, I have no idea what Jesus says, so don’t even try pull me apart on that one –
Colossians 1:20-22 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Washing of water = Washed by the Blood of Jesus
Ephesians 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Why are you baptised? You die to yourself (flesh), the water symbolises the Blood of Jesus washing over you, giving you LIFE.
I can go on… but I hope you understand the difference between the OT and NT Blood covering and that Jesus’s blood does not symbolise His death, but LIFE – His Blood is PRECIOUS!
Oh and another thing. If Jesus’s Blood means nothing, then Jesus’ physical resurrection means nothing too as it was just ‘spiritual’. Hmmm – now that’s a shocker eh? One has to be soooooooooooo careful how you speak about Jesus Christ, just the slightest adding to Jesus, or taking away from Him changes the gospel and who Jesus is completely.
Why could John MacArthur not explain this in his study bible? Instead Jesus’ blood is just liquid. No, spiritually it is LIFE GIVING and PRECIOUS BEYOND PRECIOUS.
Now predestination:
You’ve got to be kidding. Please explain to me how ‘God knowing EVERYTHING including who will accept His Son and who won’t accept His Son, implies that He had to ‘gain information’ on who would and who would not accept His Son in future? Does God sit and hand pick people to be saved as each baby is born? “Oh you little one into the trash you go… oh and you little one, you will make it to heaven.”
Luke 17:1-2 “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.”
Matthew 18:12-14 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”
Who do you think God is?
Do you think that He had to ‘gain information’ in order to add prophecy into HIS WRITTEN WORD? for things that have not yet happened, but WILL. Please provide scripture to prove that God had to gain knowledge from somewhere to write in HIS OWN WORDS on future events.
Are you saying that God handpicked Satan to fall? Did God need to hear the news (gain information) of Satan’s plans of mutiny from another source or is God omniscient and knows everything? If God chose satan to fall, please provide scripture for this, including the 1/3 of angels that followed him.
Fred, Fed, Fred… anyhow… oh wait, I ain’t finished yet… there is more!!
Let’s go to the Bible and find some verses to show how God takes pleasure in destroying the wicked (that He chose/elected to be lost which is the opposite of being chosen/elected to be saved) – as per this stupid stupid stupid horrid doctrine of Predestination:
Ezekiel 18:32 ‘For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,’ declares the Lord God. ‘Therefore, repent and live.’
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
Oh imagine that: HE TAKES NO PLEASURE
Tell me:
1) How do you know you are chosen? Because you are saved?
2) Or was it when you were saved, only then did you realise that you were chosen?
3) Or because you believe you are chosen you are therefore saved?
Let’s add another question:
1) What difference does it make to your life knowing that you are saved or chosen to be saved? There must be a huge difference, because John Calvin made an acronym especially for it 😉
Now Calvinism would agree that Jesus Christ came to save those who are chosen (before the time) by God. Yet the Bible says:
Luke 19:10: ‘For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.’
Hmmmmm Fred, we have a problem here. Are you chosen? Or lost? If you say you are chosen, then you are lost as per scripture.
Me thinks you need to stop reading men’s interpretations of the Bible and who they think God IS, and study the BIBLE by yourself to show that you are approved. Then you can start asking people if they know words like ‘atonement’ and ‘sanctification’ and stuff.
Glad to be of theological assistance to you, and you know what my degree is? Nothing. Sorry I have nothing to show you on paper that I am approved. But the bible says I will be in constant approval as long as I study and READ (yes that is something I can do) the Word of God -and the greatest teacher I have is the Holy Spirit.
[Edited by DTW: I added in a few extra notes, re: resurrection, covered by the Blood of Jesus to enter God’s presence, and other stuff…]
Ohhhh I feel a song coming on (which is rare lol)
Now I know this is a man made song, but it is so true. Predestination and Grace can’t appear in the same sentence as far as I am concerned.
Oh wait I just realised but there is a 3rd group of chosen!!!
1) The Elect (Chosen by God to be saved)
2) The Lost (The ones not chosen to be saved, therefore are chosen to be wicked and die)
3) The inbetweeners or luke warm
Revelation 3:15-16 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Oh this is a double whammy lol.
A luke warm person who has the choice to associate with good or evil. When the person decides to follow God, and separates themselves from the wicked – God says “go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you says the Lord Almighty.”
Then He will welcome you? And only then will He be your Father? Hmmm as per Calvin’s thinking because you ARE chosen that means you WERE ALREADY welcomed before birth. That contradicts scripture. I believe what God says, not John Calvin.
You write:
However in the context of salvation, Jesus’ Blood is precious and symbolises LIFE! …
Why are you baptised? You die to yourself (flesh), the water symbolises the Blood of Jesus washing over you, giving you LIFE….
I can go on… but I hope you understand the difference between the OT and NT Blood covering and that Jesus’s blood does not symbolise His death, but LIFE – His Blood is PRECIOUS!
Okay. All of those citations are nice and all, but that still doesn’t really explain why Christ’s physical blood is more than just human blood. The reason why his blood gives LIFE as you say, is due all to the fact he gave himself for our sins. The blood demonstrates a wrath appeasing death took place. God was satisfied with his offering because Christ had died. Not that he just bled. Do you understand the difference here? When the Bible says we are redeemed by Christ’s precious blood, it is referencing the fact that He died on our behalf as sinners, not that his blood had any intrinsic value that set it apart as divine blood that can impart some special quality.
As to your question as to why we are baptized, Paul seems to disagree with you that the water symbolizes blood. Romans 6:3, or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. This is also the same thought found in Colossians 2:11-13. There is no mention of blood, but there is mention of Christ’s death, which the blood signified as having taken place on our behalf.
Continuing:
Oh and another thing. If Jesus’s Blood means nothing, then Jesus’ physical resurrection means nothing too as it was just ’spiritual’.
Ummm. No. This is apples and elephants. First, John is not saying Christ’s blood means nothing. He has been quite clear that the blood of Christ is a sign that Christ’s death happened and it accomplished the turning away of God’s wrath upon sinners. Secondly, it is a major leap to suggest that what John has taught on the blood of Jesus is equated to the denial of Christ’s Resurrection. That which is a sign demonstrating a sacrifice has taken place is nowhere near the same as saying Jesus “Resurrection” was merely spiritual. If your analogy is true, then you are back where you started your post by rejecting the H&W view of the blood of Christ. You would be saying Christ’s blood has physical properties that makes it divine and unique, set apart from the same blood a man bleeds.
You ask,
You’ve got to be kidding. Please explain to me how ‘God knowing EVERYTHING including who will accept His Son and who won’t accept His Son, implies that He had to ‘gain information’ on who would and who would not accept His Son in future?
God is omniscience, He knows all things because, well, He’s God. That would include all of men’s thoughts and intentions, right? According to your position, to suggest that He elects people based upon their future choices He foresees, clearly implies there were choices of His creatures He was unaware of until they made those choices in an as-of-yet-to-happen future. This view of God also removes the element of grace. God is granting salvation to a person based upon something he or she does, that being, choosing to believe the gospel. Salvation is no longer based upon God granting freely salvation to an undeserving sinner who has no interest in God.
Does God sit and hand pick people to be saved as each baby is born?
No, actually the Bible says he chose those people before he laid the foundation of the earth, Ephesians 1:4, Titus 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20. I am desiring to build my theology of salvation from what I find in scripture. How exactly do you explain those passages? I see none of this, He chose those people who believed the gospel when he looked forward into time before the foundation of the world.
Do you think that He had to ‘gain information’ in order to add prophecy into HIS WRITTEN WORD? for things that have not yet happened, but WILL. Please provide scripture to prove that God had to gain knowledge from somewhere to write in HIS OWN WORDS on future events.
No. I am not sure where you are going with that question. It’s sort of odd. God knows the future because he decreed the future and all that would come to pass. That is why God can provide detailed prophetic words regarding the birth of Jesus, the events surrounding his death, etc.
Let’s go to the Bible and find some verses to show how God takes pleasure in destroying the wicked (that He chose/elected to be lost which is the opposite of being chosen/elected to be saved) – as per this stupid stupid stupid horrid doctrine of Predestination
You have a lot of rabbit trail questions that direct us away from the larger point at hand. That being, if predestination is a stupid and horrid doctrine, you must explain from the exegesis of the various passages that directly speak of predestination, what exactly is it the Bible is saying. What would those passages mean if John Calvin had never lived? Let’s take for example Acts 2:23 which states, Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death The phrase as found in the NKJV as “determined purpose” is from the Greek word where we get our English word, Predestination. In light of your view of predestination, how do you understand this passage? Did God just foresee that Christ would be killed by a confederacy of Jewish leaders and Roman authorities and then elected him to take the place of a savior? Or did God specifically predestine those events to take place? Are you then saying this was a stupid and horrid thing to happen because it was “predestinated?”
I’ll leave off for now.
Thanks for the discussion, by the way.
Fred
Fred
Nah,gosh, this is going to turn into a nightmare of a conversation lol. By that I mean it’s gonna become a hugeeee conversation…
I will come back to you a bit later on this with detailed short answers. So that I keep my ducks in a row too.
Deborah said:
Does God sit and hand pick people to be saved as each baby is born?
Fred said:
No, actually the Bible says he chose those people before he laid the foundation of the earth, Ephesians 1:4, Titus 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20. I am desiring to build my theology of salvation from what I find in scripture. How exactly do you explain those passages? I see none of this, He chose those people who believed the gospel when he looked forward into time before the foundation of the world.
No Fred, God did NOT choose individuals.
(In love), having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:5
Predestination is a manifestation of the love of the Father. As it is God Who chose us in grace, it is the Father Who has predestinated us to the adoption of children. Nowhere in the Bible are people ever predestinated to go to hell, and nowhere are people simply predestinated to go to heaven. Look it up and see. We are chosen in Christ to share His glory for eternity, but predestination is always to some special place of blessing.
Turn to Romans 8:29: “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
You see, predestination is not God from eternity saying “This man goes to heaven and this man to hell.” No, but predestination teaches me that when I have believed in Christ, when I have trusted Him as my Savior I may know on the authority of God that it is settled forever that some day I am to become exactly like my Savior. It settles the question of the security of my salvation. Whatever my present unsatisfactory experiences may be, some day I shall be altogether like the One Who has redeemed me. From H.A. Ironside’s “In the Heavenlies”
Now,Fred,regarding the blood of Christ – this is territory that one must be very careful in addressing. This is the essence of our salvation! Our Savior’s blood was like no other. Your blood or mine can save no one. Here are some comments that might be helpful in this discussion.
If Jesus had died from drowning or disease or snakebite or any other way that did not shed blood, His death would not have covered our sins. The Law required the shedding of blood. The crucifixtion fulfilled many of the OT prophecies and it was the perfect form of execution to fulfill the shedding of blood. If God had sent Jesus into our present day world He would have been executed by electric chair or lethal injection. That would not have fulfilled the requirements.
When I SEE THE BLOOD, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt” (Exodus 12:1-13). The blood of the sacrificial lamb had to be APPLIED to the doorpost.
“In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace” (Ephesians 1:7).
From the blood of Abel’s slain lamb in Genesis, to the robes of the saints washed in the blood in Revelation, the Word of God centers around the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 9:22, “…without shedding of blood is no remission.” Jesus’ death was just as important as His blood sacrifice, and equally important the burial and resurrection; BUT everything concerning the events of Jesus’ life were leading up to the blood being applied in Heaven. Hebrews 9:24-26 state, “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us…” That is, God the Father. Jesus took His shed blood to Heaven to present unto the Father, by applying it to the Mercy Seat.
The Bible is clear as can be—the blood of Jesus redeems! “But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are MADE NIGH BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST” (Ephesians 2:13). We are reconciled and brought back close to God By CHRIST’S BLOOD.
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased WITH HO OWN BLOOD. (Acts 20:28).
It is Jesus’ blood that cleanses away the sinner’s sins. “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD” (Revelation 1:5).
Yes, the death of Christ is important also but it would not have been sufficient by itself to redeem us. The blood had to be shed and APPLIED TO THE MERCY SEAT IN HEAVEN. His death, His burial and His resurrection. These all would have meant NOTHING had Jesus not presented Himself before the Father in Heaven.