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Author: Deborah (Discerning the World)

The Rapture – An Article to Knock Your Socks Off

RaptureThe Time Has Come to debunk those errors regarding the Rapture not taking place.

I was raised in a family that followed Word of Faith teaching (yet I rebelled and went on my own left hand path at about the age of 13).  When I realised I needed Jesus Christ in my life (much later in my life unfortunately) and was born again the ‘rapture’ was just part of something that I had heard about in passing – I was actually oblivious to Christian doctrine, including the doctrine of imminency.

After I was saved and battled to find churches to go too, I hit the internet in search of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  This was where I read up about PreTribulation and also PostTribulation (where Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation with no rapture of the church before that)  And then just to put another spanner in the works, I heard about Amillennialism.  Boy, oh boy.

So I started researching the Word of God and I started my research with Amillennialism, after 10 minutes of goggling I realised that Amillennialism was completely and utterly wrong. 

I then went and looked at the Post Tribulation scenario.  What I found interesting was that the Post Tribulation supporters use their verses to back up this idea but exclude the verses that point to the Rapture (or being caught up where the born again Christians will meet Jesus Christ in the air before the wrath of God is meted out on earth).  I read so many PostTribulation websites and studied their little diagrams and it just didn’t make sense.  I emailed 2 ministries in which I included many PreTribulation (Rapture) verses in my email and asked them to include them into their articles and they refused. The reason:  They had enough Biblical scripture to prove Post Tribulation without having to include vital scripture that refuted what they say.  How convenient I thought.

So there I was back at Pre Tribulation, still researching and knowing deep down all along that this was correct and that Jesus Christ the Son of God is coming back SOON to take His children away. At the end of the Great Tribulation He will return a 2nd time , this time setting foot on earth and crushing the enemy.

This is the reason for my blog, to warn people because I can’t handle the fact that many people I know like family, friends will be left behind and have to face delusion, confusion, terror and utter hopelessness in their minds as to what happened and try cope with the after effects.

That very moment will be unlike anything  the world has ever experienced, and it gets worse.  Much worse.  Mass HORROR, mass MURDER, mass TORTURE, mass INCOMPREHENSIBLE  evil will take place.      Matthew 24:21  “21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

At the same time I rejoice for I know that I am going to see Jesus Christ the Son of God, my King, my Lord, my Saviour, the ONE I love so much, the ONE who gave HIS life for me, the ONE who SAVED my life.  I am going to see HIM SOON face to face.  How awesome is that.  I can’t wait.

We are in a time in history unlike anything ever seen before.  Never in the last 10 years would I have ever thought that I would be alive to witness this.   The (bride of Christ, i.e., born again Christians) being caught up to meet Jesus in the air.

Jesus said He would come when we least expect it.  Generally the least expected thing happens when everything is going relatively well.

Matthew 24:37-41    37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah  38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.  40“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

Matthew 24:44    44 “For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

During the rapture, Jesus Christ does NOT come down to earth.  (So it is not considered His Second Coming).  The dead in Christ rise first and then the body of Christ are caught up to meet Jesus Christ in the CLOUDS /AIR.       1 Thess, 4:16-18    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

Jesus tells us that we are to COMFORT one another with this WONDERFUL passage of scripture.

Everything will happen very fast, so fast that it will be  1 Cor 15:52  “52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye…”

The bible tells us that even though we do not know exactly when Jesus is coming back to take the his church home    Matthew 25:13 13Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.”

He tells us to BE ON ALERT as we will see the day approaching (Biblical prophecy fulfilled) and as the day approaches we are to ENCOURAGE ONE ANOTHER.    Hebrews 10:25:  “25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.”

So it is clear that born again Christians will know that the day that Jesus Christ returns draws nearer and nearer.  If not, Jesus would not tell us to BE ON ALERT at all times and for us to watch and pray that we do not fall into temptation.   Matthew 26:41    41Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Jesus promised us He will look after us, because He paid the price for us – we are not destined for God’s wrath during the Tribulation.    1 Thessalonians 5:9,   “9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ”

We are NOT destined to be TESTED     Revelation 3:10  10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Our focus should be on Jesus Christ our Blessed Hope and we are not be disturbed by the things going on around as.   Titus 2:13  “13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus”

Do you fear that there is something terrible going on in the world but you do not know what it is?  Do you remember someone speaking to you about Jesus and you brushed them off as talking a load of nonsense?  Do you know the name of Jesus Christ in your mind, but your heart’s not interested because you prefer the ways of the world and sin?  Do you want to know why you fear that there is something horrible coming this way?  Do you want to change your ways and ask Jesus to forgive you for your sinful life so that you my enter God’s presence spotless.

Do you want to drop everything you are doing right now and speak to Jesus Christ the Son of God? Tell Him you are a sinner, tell Him you want to change your ways.  Tell him you have disobeyed Him, but you ask for forgiveness for everything you have done and you are so sorry. Tell Jesus that you know and believe that He died on the cross for you as a sacrifice for your sin, and that He rose again 3 days later and ascended with a physical body into heaven. Tell Jesus that you want Him to come into your life, and make you a new person.  Tell Jesus that you love him, honestly and truthfully with all your heart, mind and soul.  Humble yourself before your KING as a sinner who does not deserve to be saved.  But because of the love that God has for HIS creation, that is you, He created you.  When you truly and utterly come to Jesus Christ and repent, God truly and utterly forgives you and you are saved.

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See all articles on the rapture here

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184 comments to The Rapture – An Article to Knock Your Socks Off

  • Amanda

    Mark

    So you are not interested in what is going on in the DRC at all? Pity. Dr. Stephan Joubert brings some of the leading emergent voices to South Africa, like Ron Martoia! In fact, I think we are expecting Rob Bell himself this year. Now who would want to miss that. Stephan blogs at;

    http://www.echurch.co.za/

    Stephan’s friend, Dries Cronje runs Neo-Mysticism:
    http://www.neomysticism.com/

    If you struggle to discern Stephan or the DRC try:

    This is where the DRC is today:
    http://mycontemplations.wordpress.com/

    I see you have Dion Forster listed. Do read his free e-book “An Uncommon Spiritual Path” and you will understand our point on the whole “meditation” thing. It is no longer a secret that “meditation” = meditation.

  • Don’t get too excited or start to jump up and down or anything but I added you to My Watchlist of South African Christian blogs.

    From what I had gleaned from your writings in the past and confirmed from the post above I had marked you as being Dispensational. Was I correct?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    Took you a while, but congrats on the find. Now you just need to figure out that meditation is NOT biblical :)

    You can also start a list and please put me on top as No. 1 most annoying Christian blog on the planet aka hyper hyper hyper fundamentalist lol :) ehehe OH NO WAY, I just re-checked your list and you did put me as fundamentalist. Can you split that into 2 groups. 1) those that will kill/murder people for their beliefs and 2) those who will not kill/murder people for their beliefs (please put me under the 2nd group) thanks.

    I am also non-denominational because being a child of God you are a new creature in Jesus Christ. The Gospel of Jesus has been shattered overtime into many denominations. So not one denomination is correct. Being Christian is on an individual basis. You can have an entire church filled with people and not one is saved. Or you can have an entire Church filled with people and only 1% are saved. Or you can have no church building and the saved stay at home because it’s pointless going to church to hear rubbish being spoken.

    So technically speaking the denomination is spiritual, the ‘born again Christian, saved by Grace and believes in the Bible 100%’ denomination.

    Actually you need a special column just for me :)

  • Amanda

    Deborah

    No.

    Anyway, I just checked and South Africa is no longer on his list.

    But Benny is coming:

    No.

  • hector

    very good. love the article about the rapture. few misquoted verses but is ok. the point came accross very clear. I am a non-denominational as well.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hector

    Just by the by, which verses? let’s see what’s wrong …

  • You missed my point on the whole “meditation” thing. Bygones.

    I chose to order the list alphabetically with the exception of the emergents. I don’t see the word fundamentalist as derogatory. I apply it to myself.

    Non-Denominational refers to a singular church not formally aligned with an established denomination. Deborah, I couldn’t put you in that category because you, by yourself, don’t comprise a local body of believers.

    In effect I have given you your own column, Non-Institutional. I adopted the word but I intend it to reflect a person who chooses not to align themselves with any local manifestation of Body of Christ.

  • carrie daniel

    Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carrie

    Tribulation = time period of great affliction and suffering
    Wrath = when all hell breaks lose on earth as God pours out his Wrath on mankind’s wickedness

    Or do you think the Tribulation is going to look like a Coca Cola advert?

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah

    Yip my socks was knocked right of and with a couple of holes in them too, lol lol

    This is a very good one thanks it cleared up 1 or 2 questions I had.

    Blessings

  • Sarah

    Hi, I am busy reading: The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee, and he is breaking open according to Rev 12, that the rapture would be in the MID Tribulation, where the rest of the Church will be looked after in the desert (thus the Bride will be raptured). I also had questions about the Rapture, but I do witness with what it said in the book. I will be emailing you the book (because you can not get this book – out of print or banned).
    Take care

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    >> In fact, I think we are expecting Rob Bell himself this year. Now who would want to miss that.

    Hmmmm… I might “”contemplate”” going. hehe

  • @Amanda,

    I apologise, it wasn’t my intent to hijack this comment stream but to interact with Deborah regarding me pegging her as Dispensational.

    I don’t really focus on the DRC but thanks for the links and I will follow up on them. I would image that they’re neither Calvinists nor Arminianists, they are Covenantal and they are Liberal?

    I haven’t read any of Dion’s books but I do interact amicably on his website as I do on many on the others listed.

  • Jackson

    “. . .I realised that Amillennialism was completely and utterly wrong. First and foremost because St Augustine who came up with this ridiculous idea in the first place was Roman Catholic.”

    This statement nearly made me laugh out loud. At the time of St Augustine (the latter part of the 4th century) there was only the catholic church, so if everything about the catholic church is un-Biblical just because it was catholic then The Church just disappeared for a couple hundred years there till Martin Luther. . . or did I completely miss your meaning??

    Also, let me see if I understand your view on the rapture. You think that The Church will be raptured up at the beginning of the 7yrs? or mid-way when Saten is thrown out or Heaven? OR are you saying that Saten is thrown out at the beginning of the seven years? And at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus returns we will come with him on the clouds?

    Jackson

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    >> No

    lol, I was waiting for your anwer to that one hehe

    Oh Benny coming back again? *sniffS*

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sarah

    >> where the rest of the Church will be looked after in the desert (thus the Bride will be raptured).

    Can you explain this one a bit more. You mean the Jews will be protected by God (where He tells them drop everything and make their way to a special place where the will be safe from harm)? And because of this, the ‘christian’ church needs to be raptured before this, because there is no way’s we can get there on the spur of the moment from around the world. If that’s what you mean, then ok, I understand.

    I think I told this to someone before. That it’s going to be very difficult catching flights to Israel on the spur of the moment during the tribulation. I will catch my flight before that with Jesus.

    Yes please email me book, would be great. thanks

  • Michael Anthony

    Sarah,

    I read Watchman Nee’s books as a young Christian, are is a lot of things there that are quite alluring. Problem; a lot of his stuff is extra-biblical, I also found major doctrinal errors in his stuff (confusing sin and demons etc) – only at the time it kinda made sense. I would burn anything from Watchman Nee or Rebecca Brown. Unless you have mystical inclinations.

    Never drawn conclusions from authors, only from the bible. Mid-Trib? not many left in this camp. From Revelation 3 the church is never mentioned again in the entire book of Revelation; only the tribulation saints and Israel. But that is another long thread.

    Please understand the motive of my comments.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jackson

    -No the church did not disappear until Luther. In fact you missed out the Waldensians.
    Besides the ‘body of Christ’ / church is made up of individual born again Christians, it’s not an institution or one special denomination who thinks they have it right.
    -Only Jesus Christ the Son of God is correct and the Holy Spirit who convicts people in their PRIVATE lives.
    -Who so ever adheres to the Word of God is a Christian. Whoever does not, is not a Christian, but they can fool themselves and everyone else by calling themselves Christan.
    -Do you think the Holy Spirit stopped working after Jesus ascended? No. Jesus told the disciples that He would send them the Holy Spirit as their councillor, comforter and they would go out and preach the gospel. How did people get saved after they heard the gospel? By the Holy Spirit. He has been around saving people since that time right until now. But you should know that……
    -How long is a millennium? 1000 years? 2000 years? 2010 years?
    -Did the church replace Israel during this time?
    -Where does the Bible speak about this Amillennialism idea?
    -Do you think Catholics are Christian?

    If you don’t like my belief on the Rapture, then that’s your problem eh. And it’s strange that people get soooo UPSET when others say they hold onto Pre tribulation rapture. Why? I don’t get upset with people who care to think otherwise.

    I think people fear thinking about a Pre Trib Rapture because they feel they are not ready, so would prefer to delay Jesus’ coming in their minds. Fortunately we don’t have a say on the matter.

  • Amanda

    Mark

    I would image that they’re neither Calvinists nor Arminianists, they are Covenantal and they are Liberal?

    Pantheistic. Panentheistic. They starve the sheep, feed the goats and interact amicably with false teachers and religions.You don’t have a New Age column?

  • @Amanda,

    I don’t follow any New Age bloggers (although it’d be fair to say that on the list there are some who engage in New Age practises). This is as wide a scope as I have time for. I’m sure however that there are pockets of South African Christian bloggers I haven’t started tracking yet. The list is partly for others to see who’s who in the zoo and partly for me to make more connections.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    I would prefer to be under a column of Sola scriptura and not Fundamentalist. Can you do that for me please.

  • cecilia

    mmmm, agreed Deborah. I don’t think you would ‘look’ well in this ‘zoo’.
    lol!
    cecilia

  • @Deborah,

    I promise I have applied all my mental faculties to this task (http://markpenrith.wordpress.com/my-watchlist/) and you’ll be glad to know that I have changed the column from Fundamentalism to Conservatism of which Sola scriptura is a sub section. Basically you’re categorised conservative because you adhere to the 5 fundamentals, the 5 Solas, Creationism and Cessationism (I think).

  • Jackson

    First, let me apolgize for posting my last comment without first fact-checking, I was lucky this time and my facts were right but I still goofed there, sorry.

    I wanted to say that as soon as possible, I’ll get back to the discussion tonight when I have time.

    A sorry:
    Jackson

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jackson

    no problemo.

  • Jackson

    “-No the church did not disappear until Luther. In fact you missed out the Waldensians.
    Besides the ‘body of Christ’ / church is made up of individual born again Christians, it’s not an institution or one special denomination who thinks they have it right.”

    You mean like the institutionalized church didn’t disappear till Luther? I was referring to The Church, the Body of Christ, as you define in that latter part of that point.

    “-Only Jesus Christ the Son of God is correct and the Holy Spirit who convicts people in their PRIVATE lives.”

    ??? Can you elaborate on that? I’m not sure I understand what your saying.

    “-Who so ever adheres to the Word of God is a Christian. Whoever does not, is not a Christian, but they can fool themselves and everyone else by calling themselves Christan.”

    I’d disagree, “everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should [shall] have eternal life” (Jn 6:40) If you believe in Jesus Christ you are Saved, the rest of your theology may be crazy but your still Saved. Now, if someone who is Saved can have completely wrong theology is debatable. But it’s not about adherence to the Word of God, it’s about Faith in the Christ.

    “-Do you think the Holy Spirit stopped working after Jesus ascended? No. Jesus told the disciples that He would send them the Holy Spirit as their councillor, comforter and they would go out and preach the gospel. How did people get saved after they heard the gospel? By the Holy Spirit. He has been around saving people since that time right until now. But you should know that……”

    The answer is no, I do know that. ;)

    “-How long is a millennium? 1000 years? 2000 years? 2010 years?”

    “A millennium (pl. millenniums or millennia) is a period of time equal to one thousand years (from Latin mille, thousand, and annum, year).
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenium”

    “-Did the church replace Israel during this time?”

    “Did”? That’s past tense, I haven’t a clue what are you talking about?

    “-Do you think Catholics are Christian?”

    Some, maybe. I don’t think the Catholic church as a whole is, and hasn’t been for quite some time. But at the time of St Agustine the Catholic church was the only church (or if one existed I’ve never heard of it), so The Church, the Body or Christ, those truly Saved had to be part of the Catholic church. So, just because something came from a Catholic can’t be necessarily bad.

    “If you don’t like my belief on the Rapture, then that’s your problem eh. And it’s strange that people get soooo UPSET when others say they hold onto Pre tribulation rapture. Why? I don’t get upset with people who care to think otherwise.”

    I’m trying to find out what your beliefs on the Rapture are!!!! Your article left rather confused. I’m not ” soooo UPSET” at your views, what I’m upset about is that you (seemed to) ignored my original point and question!!! x( :p

    “I think people fear thinking about a Pre Trib Rapture because they feel they are not ready, so would prefer to delay Jesus’ coming in their minds. Fortunately we don’t have a say on the matter.”

    The only reason I’ve heard for mid or post trib raptures are either that the evidence best agrees with it or, that the trib is the greatest display of Gods glory, like ever. So why would he take His Church out, instead of leaving them in the world to see his fireworks. I’m inclined to agree with the reasoning of the latter, but I really don’t have a strong opinion, if I’m raptured before the tribulation then cool, God knows what’s best; If I see the trib starting around me then I’ll start the 7yr countdown and hope the “blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Tit 2:13)

    Dominus Vobiscum:
    Jackson

  • Jackson

    This discussion is growing exponentially, rather than continue it can I just ask what your beliefs on the End Times/Tribulation/Rapture are?

    If you (or someone else who’s reading this) wants to continue the full discussion email me: Jackson [at] Freedom836 [dot] com

    Dominus Vobiscum
    Jackson

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jackson

    >> I’d disagree, “everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should [shall] have eternal life” (Jn 6:40) If you believe in Jesus Christ you are Saved, the rest of your theology may be crazy but your still Saved. Now, if someone who is Saved can have completely wrong theology is debatable. But it’s not about adherence to the Word of God, it’s about Faith in the Christ.

    You say: “But it’s not about adherence to the Word of God, it’s about Faith in the Christ.” Well that speaks volumes.

    End o’ discussion.

  • Michael Anthony

    John 8: 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

    Jackson,

    Can you explain this mystery – exactly what theology can you kinda mess up on and still be saved? I mean, can you deny the Trinity? Can you deny that Christ actually came in the flesh and still be saved? So abiding in truth and seeking doctrinal accuracy, loving the truth enough to defend it…not really important? Just beleive in ‘the Christ’? Who is this christ?

    So you can beleive in the Son but not really take his Word seriously and still be saved? How is any different from islam? They also beleive in jesus.

    I think you misused the word theology instead of the word doctrine, and I hope you were trying to say that doctrinal views on the rapture do not affect salvation in a generic sense.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jackson

    Michael asked you some really good questions. In fact I was going to ask the EXACT same things but was a bit busy yeaterday to answer. So you can answer him… thanks

  • Michael Anthony

    Ok,Jackson

    I will answer your questions concerning the rapture.

    We should live our lives as if Jesus Christ could come at any moment for his church – that’s called the doctrine of eminency. We discern the times nearing this event by what we have outlined in scripture in terms of warnings and what to look out for.

    If the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation after Jesus Christ has thoroughly given his bride a solid beating and wiped out three quarters of the church through wrath before he saves her – well, then I am sure that he can also preserve and strengthen her through that. I cannot even begin to conceive a mid-trib rapture, it is doctrinally the easiest to debunk.

    Now can you answer my questions?

  • Jean

    @ Jackson . . .
    Knowing Jesus or as you put it “Faith in Jesus alone” is not good enough . . .Why? Because Demons also know Jesus and believe in Him BUT I don’t think it is going to help them in the end . . . please note the following scriptures:

    Mat 8:28 And when he (Jesus) was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
    Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

    They knew who Jesus was and believed in Him because they knew what he was going to do to them in the end . . . If you don’t believe in someone you will not believe that he is capable of doing that which he says/proclaims he will do . . .

    Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

    Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Now, Did you know that the Gospel of Salvation is not just believing in Jesus ?

    Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

    Great ! I must thus also repent of my sins and only then will I recieve remission of sins . . .
    Now look at the following scripture . . .

    Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
    Act 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

    Here we read that even the Demons know that it is a WAY of salvation . . .

    The Greek word used for “way” in this scripture is -hodos- and means:
    “a means, a course of conduct or a way of obtaining something through a way of life, same word in Acts 2:28; 2Pet 2:21; Sept: Prov 10:17” (Greek Word Study Dictionary; Spiros Zodhiates)

    Pro 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.

    God never changes . . . His is true to his word and has bound himself to it,Old and New Covenant’s.
    Let us NOT make our own way or method of salvation . . like the church has already done. :-(

  • cecilia

    >>> “Dominus Vobiscum = an ancient salutation and blessing traditionally given by priests of the Roman Catholic church during Latin masses.”
    it might point to the preference(s) of this writer? …
    just thought I’d point this out…
    cecilia

  • Jean

    @ Jackson . . . Sorry, I forgot to clear up your quoted scripture:

    Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Here we have the “sad” situation of the English language not being able to give one word for the Equivalent word in Greek. Like in any language the meaning of a word can change depending on the sentence it is used in… eg. the word “pot” – I use a pot to cook. I plant flowers in a pot.

    Ok, in this scripture the contextual meaning of the word “believe” in Greek is:
    – ho pisteou – to have faith in, to trust – indicating an action of – this word should NOT be taken as the one holding onto God constantly lest he would let loose and fall. It rather indicates that once one believes, he continues to believe. the presupposition -ho- indicates the “continuous” tense – meaning, it must carry on…
    (Greek Word Study Dictionary; Spiros Zodhiates)

    This word “believe” is followed by the words “on Him” (ice owtos) and means: (without no going into the Greek detail and depth) to do what he did, to live like he did.

    I know you might “complain” that you don’t know Greek . . . Well that is one of the reasons we have “learned” Pastors BUT unfortunately they are not doing their job.

    Back to topic:

    Jesus himself said:
    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    What is the Will of the Father ? For everyone to be saved ! AMEN !
    How? Repent, be baptised and be filled with the Spirit of God !

    Also:
    Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

  • Jen

    Thanks – for very interesting topic :-).
    Zech 13:9
    13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God. (KJV)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    C

    >> “Dominus Vobiscum = an ancient salutation and blessing traditionally given by priests of the Roman Catholic church during Latin masses.”
    it might point to the preference(s) of this writer? …

    Indeed.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jean

    Wonderful comments. Thank you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    C

    Agree. I prefer my own zoo right here. Oh, I am not calling you or anyone else an animal, just by the way *grins sheepishly* My zoo is…oh gosh, let me stop, I’m gonna make this sound worse if I carry on trying to explain myself.

  • Amanda

    Baa-ha-ha.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    Just wait till you meet Bobs Your-Anchor. hehe

  • @Jean,

    In Greek John 6:40 reads, “τουτο γαρ εστιν το θελημα του πατρος μου ινα πας ο θεωρων τον υιον και πιστευων εις αυτον εχη ζωην αιωνιον και αναστησω αυτον εγω | | [εν] | τη εσχατη ημερα”

    There is a minor textual variation in the Westcott and Hort source but I checked the Byzantine and the Textus Receptus are identical. For clarity the variation doesn’t impact the word in question.

    You said the word was pisteou. Well that’s just bad Greek. The word transliterated into English would be pisteuōn (πιστευων). The way you’ve rendered it makes it a present active indicative first person singular verb (V-PAI-1S) rather than the way Scripture intends it as a present active nominative singular masculine participle (V-PAP-NSM).

    Also, and this is the weirdest of all, you can see from the text above there is no “ho” (ο) preceding pisteuōn. Your entire sentence “the presupposition -ho- indicates the “continuous” tense – meaning, it must carry on…” seems to be forfeit.

    Have I missed something glaringly obvious here?

  • Amanda

    Bwhat? Bob’s my uncle? Sorry, that is Greek to me.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    WOW! Now tell me, why can’t you tell the difference between meditation and prayer? And that is New Age but yet can’t see it. And I see you have a whole little article on 10 reasons why you love Mary. *has a small heart attack* And ja ja, I can see you are gonna come and try explain that it’s ‘not what you mean…’ but it’s clear that you do, you just not saying it.

    Btw, my Greek is very rusty, the last time I spoke it was…well…never. And I am guessing 99.9% of the people coming here are in the same boat as me.

  • @Amanda,

    :).

    @Deborah,

    You consistently shun Biblical truth that is clearly presented so that you can pass a mocking comment in my direction. You protect those who pander to you at the expense of engaging around an issue of Scripture. You have passed more jibes, sarcastic remarks and disparaging comments my way than Biblical correction.

    As to the article on Mary (http://markpenrith.wordpress.com/2010/01/02/10-things-i-love-about-mary/), did you even read it?

    You got me wrong so badly last time

    (http://markpenrith.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/meditation-for-christians-what-it-is-and-how-to-do-it/
    and
    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/12/17/mark-driscolls-resurgence-and-emergence-with-catholicism/).

  • Quote: Have I missed something glaringly obvious here?

    Yeah, the Gospel.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    >> You consistently shun Biblical truth that is clearly presented so that you can pass a mocking comment in my direction. You protect those who pander to you at the expense of engaging around an issue of Scripture. You have passed more jibes, sarcastic remarks and disparaging comments my way than Biblical correction.

    I asked you under those articles again and again and again and again and again and again and again and now again just one more time. IS meditation Biblical?? I have explained myself PERFECTLY clear Mark. And I have explained scripture to you clearly and concisely. If you refuse the truth, then don’t come and blame me when you speak GREEK and I don’t understand.

    >> You got me wrong so badly last time

    You wish buddy ol’ pal. You called a truce with me because you condoned contemplative spirituality but can’t or refuse to see the BIBLICAL difference between meditation and biblical prayer. You would NOT give me an answer when I asked you repeatedly ‘How do you meditate over Psalms?’ As per your article you wrote on your blog on how to meditate.

    So instead what do you do, you find 1 little discrepancy to argue about. Like how many times the word meditate or meditation appears in the OT or NT and Michael miscounted and then YOU my dear Mark actually CHARGED him with WILFULLY leading people astray.

    Now Jean comes along and gives a pretty great comment on Pre Trib and you pick out a discrepancy on a GREEK word that….that….I actually can’t believe this. A darn word that does not change a single thing regarding the TOPIC of the RAPTURE.

    As for Biblical correction. I don’t know what more to say to you to get you to understand. So I have given up on that. All I hope now is that maybe someone else’s comment will trigger something and God opens your eyes as to what NEW AGE/ OCCULT means and that you are on that road. But so far, nothing.

    Are you a pastor Mark? You preach to a little congregation don’t you? I think you should stop because quite frankly you don’t have a clue as to what you really believe. And if you are not sure how can you teach others? Let me help you here: You want to believe in the Bible, but you want to add experience and feeling and the use of your senses to your worship of God. So that is exactly what you have done, and now it’s no longer Christian. It’s called New Age.

    >> As to the article on Mary (markpenrith.wordpress.com/2010/01/02/10-things-i-love-about-mary), did you even read it?

    Of course yes. Now the question we need to ask is. Jesus mentions her I think once in the entire NT (maybe twice, I can’t remember, it’s 4am in the morning, I am tired). But you go and find 10 reasons to mention her name, in love for her and adoration for her. She is nothing Mark. She can’t save you, she can’t hear you, she can’t do anything for you. Yes, she was Jesus’ mother and a women who’s obedience to God was beyond reproach hence God chose her to give birth to Jesus Christ the Son of God. But that’s it!

    You sit on the fence Mark and you wobble a bit this way and you wobble a bit that way. You agree and disagree on the same topics. You say you don’t agree with the whole Mary worship thing, but you won’t outright condemn it either. Just like you hang around Emergent Church type blogs and then come here. Your area is grey. Make your choice Mark, cos watching you wobble from side to side is quite a sad sight to behold. And by sad I mean really sad, because all anyone can do is pray that your eyes are opened to what you are following and getting yourself involved in before it’s too late.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jean

    >> I know you might “complain” that you don’t know Greek . . . Well that is one of the reasons we have “learned”

    Haaa I only noticed this now. lol. I don’t know Greek either, yet I manage to understand the English bible pretty well.

    And absolutely right you are that: “that once one believes, he continues to believe…it must carry on”

    That is why our relationship with Jesus Christ GROWS when we OBEY God’s Word. When you do not OBEY God’s Word you end up believing all sorts of non-biblical teachings.

    Through Holy Spirit conviction ONLY, we repent of our sin (and every Christian will always repent for there is not one day that goes by where we have not sinned in some way) and because of our obedience (repenting) we GROW closer to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit guides, councils and comforts us more.

    Obedience is something we do on a continuous basis. And if you LOVE Jesus Christ with all your heart, this is something that you will want to do. You will put on the full armour of God daily as God commands every Christian do otherwise they fall by the wayside.

    In the time we live in now, the spiritual attack is so strong that if you do not care to ground yourself in God’s Word you will become a statistic. One day soon 90% or more of the world’s population will all call themselves Christian; yet none of them want a Bible in their homes.

  • Michael Anthony

    Mark,

    You have a distinct ability for annoying people.

    You accuse others of shunning biblical ‘truth’ and in my case ‘willfully misleading people’, yet the exact opposite applies. You come disguised in pseudo bible-scholarly garb yet you could not exegete your way out of a paper bag. If we are the ones wanting to deceive people why are there articles posted on this site recently on how to correctly interpret scripture? Do you honestly think that the Greek/Hebrew computer program your mother bought you for XMAS gives you some monopoly on biblical interpretation?

    You do realise that when readers post here it makes them to research and get thinking about biblical content – the admin’s job is not to give them pass/fail marks on grammar but rather to encourage people to think for themselves. (In fact there was nothing wrong with the grammar, you invent new ways of finding error).You dude, are like the child in the neighbourhood that has no one to play with so you prowl the neighbour’s backyards to see what toys you can destroy.

    What is really going on here is that you want to play with, you think we are all playing a game of ‘finding error’ so you come and join with your perverted version of fault finding. This is not a game dude, some of the heresies exposed here are highly destructive, many of the teachings exposed here have eternal consequences.

    You really have this irking quality that when you compliment someone you insult them at the same time. You talk about ‘biblical correction’ – what that really means is anyone that disagrees with your one-dimensional way of interpretation which is based on a mountain of presuppositions. It is absolutely astounding: you purposely ripped a scripture out of context in a previous post that completely changed the meaning of that verse and to divert attention from that you accuse me of wilfully misleading people because I miscounted how many times the instances on mediation/prayer were found in the bible, when that was not even the point. You fooled no one but yourself.

    Dude, you were extremely childish then, this meaningless greek adventure of yours only proves my point further. You have missed the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the whole counsel of God – which is the whole point of the direction this topic took – with nonsense. Perhaps you should work on you English skills and more specifically; on expressing clear, understandable English to people before you venture into greek.

    Captain, over and out.

  • Amanda

    Mark

    While you are in the discernment mood, re-read what Mr. Trickster the Third wrote on your blog:

    The point is that this is supposed to be about WHO we believe, not WHAT we believe. I think it was a good point.

    Now that is a camel size problem. Won’t you help the poor man out?

  • Sian Jones

    Phew…this is interesting.

  • Jackson

    Whoa! I thought this was over, and had stopped checking back. Today I came back to test a scrolling add-on to Firefox and discovered all this! Due to the sheer volume of material for me to go through I’m going to write a blog post and give the link here when I’m done.

    (Before you suggest that I post it in parts here; in-between writing the parts you would continue to tear in to the previous ones. Unless someone owns a forum that we could use, [Forums being made to do this, blog comments; not.] I offer the forum at Freedom836.com, [I can make Deborah a mod if that would soften the loss of control from it moving off the site, if that’d be a remote problem problem.] )

    One thing I will address here is “Dominus Vobiscum”, I was unaware that it was used by the catholic church, so I used if (and will continue to do so) completely innocently of such affiliations. (Deborah: you will have observed the same salutation in my email.) The best translation I’m aware of is “May the Lord be with you”, to which I commonly attach (when appropriate) “Amicum”, or “Amichi” meaning “friend” or “friends” respectively.

    So, to conclude:
    Dominus Vobiscum:
    Jackson

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jackson

    Sorry I saw your email the day before yesterday but did not get time to respond and yesterday I was not online.

    No, please don’t make me a mod there. But thanks anyhow. I have enough to handle this side. People can comment there and come here if they wish. No problem for me. I am not concerned what people say outside of this blog.

    As for the dominus vobiscum. not to worry we all do and say things sometimes without knowing. But when we find out the truth we try our best not to do it again for example: Just like finding out that ‘following’ Jesus is not enough, you need to abide by His Word at all times. So in this instance you will go and test what I say to the Word of God, as God comments everyone to TEST what we hear, and then do something about it :)

    PS, I believe Jesus Christ the Son of God will come and rapture born again Christians before the tribulation. A born again Christian makes up the true body of Christ (not the fake Church where people just call themselves Christian and think that makes them one). A genuinely saved Christian adheres to the Word of God and has the Holy Spirit abide in them. A born again Christian does not follow after ‘a’ Christ thinking it’s Jesus Christ but instead a deception deliberately placed there to deceive.

    The message that is being preached today is about just ‘following’ Jesus and not HIS Word. Just do what He did and you will be A-OK. So you can kinda put His Word aside and just ‘believe’. The problem is, when you believe in Jesus Christ the first thing the Holy Spirit (who has come to abide in you) will do is make you pick up that Bible and study it and He will remove any misconceptions and lies you have been taught along the way by false teachers.

  • Lourens

    Deborah

    You ROCK..! O sorry! That’s not quite biblical but you get what I mean. I’m also non-denominational (if there is such a thing)

    Like you said: “you can have no church building and the saved stay at home because it’s pointless going to church to hear rubbish being spoken.”

    Such a shame though! It is truly becoming a lonely place on earth as most people are so blind they can’t even see them selves!

    Cheers

  • Elmarie A

    Lourens

    I could not help to think about this
    Quote from A Toser. It is called the Saint must walk alone.

    “The pain of loneliness arises from the constitution of our nature. God made us for each other. The desire for human companionship is completely natural and right. The loneliness of the Christian results from his walk with God in an ungodly world, a walk that must often take him away from the fellowship of good Christians as well as from that of the unregenerate world. His Godgiven instincts cry out for companionship with others of his kind, others who can understand his longings, his aspirations, his absorption in the love of Christ; and because within his circle of friends there are so few who share his inner experiences he is forced to walk alone. The unsatisfied longings of the prophets for human understanding caused them to cry out in their complaint, and even our Lord Himself suffered in the same way.”

    Blessings

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Lourens

    >> Such a shame though! It is truly becoming a lonely place on earth as most people are so blind they can’t even see them selves!

    I know, it’s very lonely. It’s taken me almost 3 years to find just a handful of genuinely saved Christians. And boy do I only have stories to tell of those who my husband and I met who said they were Christian and even had us fooled for a good while.

    And then there were the ones we met who were very quick to jump down our throats when I mentioned something that they completely disagreed with – usually this would happen after they tried to lay hands and burst forth in unknown tongues. Commanding Jesus in His Name to sort out all our problems right there and then.

    Quite frankly I prefer the honest ones, least we know what’s really going on. haha

  • Jean

    @ Lourens . . . Take heart my friend and be glad that your name is not Noah or Lot. Look at Moses . . . They where all “loners” BUT they had a relationship with God ! Paul did not have it easy either! After all his hard labor and near the end of his ministry he writes this to Timothy: 2Tim 1:15 “You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes.”
    The best example is however Jesus. He was forsaken by ALL men and then by God also !

    If you really want to read a good book on this then go here:
    http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/tozer/5j00.0010/5j00.0010.c.htm
    It is a Free online book. The Book is called:
    “Man: Dwelling place of God”
    Awesome book and in chapter 39 the quote as quoted by Elmari appears. He then expounds greatly on this subject and really gives you something to hold onto !
    Go for it!

  • Hi Debs

    I have noticed that You continue to share that meditation is against the Bible. I am compelled to repeat that we often find the Truth on the path we choose to avoid it, as it is the Truth that we are focussed on, and the Truth always stands. All of Scripture is Truth.

    That said I have noticed you are investigating a bit more.

    Blessings to you
    MH

  • Pieter

    @Jean

    Well said! Thanks guys, I am learning so much from all of you.

    God Bless

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Merry

    >> I have noticed that You continue to share that meditation is against the Bible.

    Keep noticing cos it wont stop.

    >> I am compelled to repeat that we often find the Truth on the path we choose to avoid it,

    I’ll stick to my narrow path thank you – the path that is Jesus Christ the Son of God. I avoid all other paths that lead to destruction.

    >> That said I have noticed you are investigating a bit more.

    I have no idea what you mean by that comment.

  • Lourens

    Yip!

    Thanks guys for all the kind words. You make me feel even more lonely.. lol! ;-)

    Luckily I have learned all this during the last 8 years of being a lonely voice among the hundreds of “christians” I have met. The only sad part is that I only found this site about 2 months ago. It’s absolutely wonderful to see that God still keeps people informed. That’s if they want the truth!

    If only more people would get down on their knees in real seriousness & ask God to REVEAL HIS TRUTH to them and not some persons opinion in a book; dvd or bible school or university theology class. Doing that will allow many people to understand this site MUCH better.

    I sent out an email the other day regarding old Angus. Whew! Did I get hammered for that one. But hey: Truth is TRUTH!

    Did any of you watch the “Passion of Christ” years ago? I sent out a mail on that too and it was amazing how devastatingly blind MOST “christian’s” are.

    Deborah, if you like you can contact me by email and I’ll send it to you, as taking your site into consideration it will truly make for some great discussion & revelation

    Cheers

    Serve God with all your heart, soul and all your might!

    P.s You know the creator of us all; the God of the Bible; The God who became flesh, died and rose again. Nowadays you have to be sure who we are talking about as there’s another jesus, gospel & spirit working in the earth.

  • servant

    Deborah,

    I agree with most of your theology, except on this matter. There are many reasons some people get so hyped about this debate, I’ll name a few:

    1. Because pretrib theory is false doctrine. It’s only been taught in the church for the last 200 years or so and was brought about by an Irvingite false prophecy.

    2. It mostly leads the flock to complacency with their Lord, thinking they have a golden ticket that will keep them from tribulation. (Not saying you, but there are many)

    3. It will lead to the falling away mentioned in scripture. When people have to endure tribulation, they will wonder why they didn’t get whisked away. They will feel they believed a lie among many and be more susceptible to the whim’s of the false religion/false prophet/antichrist.

    4. The thought of the great tribulation is terrifying and the person must gather scripture to support their view so as to alleviate the stress of immense persecution in their future.
    Remember, if Jesus was persecuted, so shall we be. A servant is not greater than his master.

    5. Trials and tribulation are part of refining: scripture is below:

    Zechariah 13:9 >>
    And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    Isaiah 48:10
    Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

    Psalm 66:10
    For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.

    Please, Read one sentence above your 16-18 reference in Thessalonians. It will shine more light on the subject.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 -18
    15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

    It’s funny, because last night I was reading 1Thessalonians, and found it odd that my study bible dismissed an important part of scripture and the connection. Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 ” According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord,”

    My study bible said this must have been an unknown revelation that Paul was referring to about “According to the Lord’s own word”.

    Of course I scoffed, because I knew right away what Paul was referencing as “the Lord’s own word”

    He was referring to scripture in Matthew 24:30-31

    30″At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    Notice, to get to this part of Matthew 24, you have to get through the tribulation, falling away and the presentation of the Antichrist, before you get to Christ’s second coming.

    Other areas that pretrib theory use is the mention of ‘saints’ and ‘wrath’. We’ve been called saints all through the bible, so that’s a weak argument. There’s not a special set of saints in Revelation, except for maybe the 144,000, which I’m not sure who they are. I’ve heard many theories and have not come to a conclusion.

    God’s wrath is aimed toward unrepentant sinners in the end times, who refused to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The bowls of wrath in Revelation, the Lords army conquering, not being found in the Book of the Lamb and then finally being cast into the lake of fire is the wrath of God, not the Great Tribulation.

    A secret coming, (pretrib rapture) is extra biblical. It is adding to scripture, which we are commanded not to do. Deborah, I respect many of your stances but please, this pretrib stance should be considered as a possible emotional response to what’s coming down the road and not really the truth.

    In your response that people cling to post trib because they are “not ready”, is not a real convincing argument. Believe me, if Jesus wanted to come back now…Hallelujah! ..I’m glad not to go through suffering … but scripture shows me otherwise. It was hard at first for me to realize and stomach what’s really in-store for the Body of Christ, but I know that the Lord Jesus Christ is with me…even until the end of the age. You have to be ready in your heart to know you’re going to go through tribulation. I know that I should not worry what I will say or do if that day comes and I’m to be persecuted or martyred, but I know that the Lord’s Holy Spirit will do the work for me… because scripture tells me so and that is what brings me comfort. Believe me, there’s nothing easy about a post trib outlook, but a pretrib could be detrimental to a weak faith.

    I believe that if your pretrib stance is proven false, that your faith will remain intact (praise God), but many other’s faith won’t.

    Please prayerfully consider what it is you may be promoting.

    Thank you for your time. :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    servant

    I thought like you did at one point in time. I’ve been through all your points and thought and studied them for the last 2 years. And I landed back up at Pre-Trib.

    First, you confuse the Church with Israel. This is a Latter Rain teaching, that the Church is Israel.

    The Bible says that those who think they are Israel are the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9 “…..I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.”

    I am promoting nothing that is not scriptural. If people’s faith is that weak that if they were to see the tribulation and dump Jesus Christ because of it, then they were not saved to begin with. There is no such thing as weak faith. You are either saved or you are not. You are either cold or hot. There is no such thing as being partially saved. Simple.

    Matthew 24:44 “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh”

    The only time frame when believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation. It’s a just a little bit obvious when all nations have marched and decended on Israel. This would be a clear sign to born again Christians that Jesus is about to appear any second. No real surprises there.

    >> It will lead to the falling away mentioned in scripture.

    We are in the falling away. Quite far into it already.

    >> There’s not a special set of saints in Revelation, except for maybe the 144,000, which I’m not sure who they are.

    They are 144,000 Jewish evangelists SEALED by God. So they are a SPECIAL set of Saints.

    Revelation 7:4 “4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

    The 2 witnesses during the tribulation are Elijah and Moses. They are for the Jewish people ONLY. It would take Elijah and Moses to get the Jews to see that Jesus Christ the Son of God is indeed their MESSIAH. Because this is what the OT prophets were speaking about all along – Jesus Christ. Gentiles (the church at is stands right now) do not need to worry about Elijah and Moses – however they are revered as GREAT prophets by Israel and by seeing Elijah and Moses in the flesh they with will know that God is with them again.

    Revelation 11:1-4 “1 And there was given me a reed like to a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given to the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days, clothed in sackcloth.”

    Notice that the Gentiles will be attacking Jerusalem and God will count (measure) the Jews who are the ‘temple of God’. This again points to the fact that the Christian church (and those handfull of Jews who are saved at this moment in time) will be raptured BEFORE the tribulation.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    servant

    >> 1. Because pretrib theory is false doctrine. It’s only been taught in the church for the last 200 years or so and was brought about by an Irvingite false prophecy.

    —–

    The Margaret MacDonald Origin

    One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

    Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

    One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

    With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.

    —–

    AND I HAVE EVEN AN EARLIER date than this. His name was NOAH, and it’s in the Bible too ;)

    You see the catch is. Because Word of Faith/Latter Rain used to preach Pre-Trib and because we now know that Latter Rain teaching is false we assume that the Rapure is now false to. And this is not so.

    The difference is, is that Latter Rain expect another Christ, born again Christians expect Jesus Christ the Son of God.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    servant

    The word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation that will be like HELL on earth – You guys that want to go through this persecution have no idea what the tribulation is going to be like. You have no idea what the demonic world is like. I was in the occult for many years and I have seen things that I never want to see again.

    Jesus gives us peace and a sound mind. He also says:

    1 Thessalonians 5:9 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”

    Rev 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev 3:10).

    There will be the luke warm, the one who sat on the fence, who knew about Jesus Christ but preferred the world who will go through the tribulation. This number will be huge that will find themselves in a predicament unlike anything they ever wished to experience. They will suffer and it’s a terrible thing to say and even think about.

    This is why we WARN people.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    servant

    Oh and here is more proof that there are 2 different goups of people caught up: One before the tribulation where we are caught up to meet him in the air and then the one when Jesus comes down setting foot on earth.

    After the 7 tribulation is over and Jesus Christ is of course victorious. He conquered Satan from the beginning already. in Heaven there appeared ANOTHER multitude of people who were saved and washed by the Blood of Jesus.

    Revelation 7:9

    9 After this I beheld, and, see, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    And one of the Elders in Heaven is confused… wondering where these people came from:

    Revelation 7:13-17

    13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and from where came they? 14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the middle of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    These are the ones who will go through the tribulation and are saved during this time, and God shall wipe away ALL TEARS from their eyes due to the pain and suffering they had to endure.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    servant

    Pre-trib

    Regarding 1 Thessalonians 4:15 -18 (including v 15)

    15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

    1) Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians who thought that they had already entered the tribulation and was telling them that it was no so.
    2) 1 command
    3) 1 voice of 1 ARCHANGEL
    4) 1 trumpet call of God
    5) dead in Christ are those who are saved and have died prior to the start of the tribulation. Yes, even those who died yesterday and were saved are in slumber
    6) the remaining will be caught up to meet Jesus Christ in the air, this is the current born again church who are still alive today.
    7) you can’t have Jesus Christ coming down to earth and then us being caught up TO HIM in the AIR. That means we go up and then come back down again at the same time. Or we miss each other. Makes absolutely NO sense what-so-ever.

    Post-Trib

    Matthew 24:30-31

    30 ″At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    1) Nations gathered attacking Israel
    2) Jesus appears in the sky with all power and great glory
    3) Nations have a nervous breakdown and mourn because they were wrong all along.
    4) God sends out MORE THAN one angel and ANOTHER trumpet call (different to the first one of the rapture)
    5) They gather the elect from the 4 corners of the earth as mentioned below in Isaiah
    6) Jesus has come down to earth, the elect are garthered unto him. It does not say they were caught up to meet him in the air.
    7) Satan is chained and thrown into the pit.

    Isaiah 43:3-9

    JEWS / ISRAEL DURING THE TRIBULATION

    3 For I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I give Egypt for your ransom, Cusha and Seba in your stead.
    4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give men in exchange for you, and people in exchange for your life.
    5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.
    6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth—
    7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”
    8 Lead out those who have eyes but are blind, who have ears but are deaf.
    9 All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble. Which of them foretold this and proclaimed to us the former things?
    Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    servant

    As in the days of Noah

    Matthew 24:36-39

    36“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man

    Right, again no surprises here.

    BEFORE THE FLOOD (tribulation). People carrying on doing their thing, happily unaware that Jesus Christ the Son of God would return and take away those who were born again. The days of Noah were very sinful; sin, wicked, crime, corruption, idolatry, homosexuality, men not adhering to a single commandment as written in the Word of God.

    But Noah he was obeying God, he built his ark as God commanded and they waited, “they knew nothing about what would happen” until the flood came and God rescued them took them all away. Now remember it rained, and it rained hard, it did not just flood and whoosh everyone was destroyed. There was confusion, fear, panic as it rained and did not stop raining, and the water rose higher.

    Those who knew about Noah and his ark (and were left behind) were most definitely THINKING SERIOUSLY about Noah and his ridiculous tale of God telling him to build an ark (just like those who are doing their best to refute that Jesus will come and take us away before the flood (tribulation) AND THAT IS HOW it will be at the coming of the Son of Man .

    Just like born again Christians today (like Noah and his family). We watch and we wait and we pray. We know the time is near, we just don’t know when.

    Now if all the world is descending on Israel, it’s pretty obvious.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ok, I think that should keep everyone thinking for a good while. So start warning. Thank you :)

  • Elmarie A

    Lourens

    >>icw -“I sent out an email the other day regarding old Angus. Whew! Did I get hammered for that one. But hey: Truth is TRUTH!”

    On this link is an open letter Angus Buchan. Writtten by Alan Lester. It is 49 pages long he he alot of reading, but interesting. Just find “Open letter to Angus Buchan” the 3rd item in page.

    People dont like to hear the truth spoken. We all here know why. The minute u speak the Truth People think you atack them.

    Blessings

    [EDITED by DTW: And all my articles on him here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/angus-buchan-shalom-ministries/

    I must post that one by Alan Lester, I keep forgetting though.]

  • servant

    Hey Deborah,

    Thanks for responding. I think in some of your comments you’re trying to prove a rapture exists, I do agree with you on that, we just differ on timing. I believe there will be a rapture, we will get ‘caught up’, gathered to him…but at the end. Not pre-trib.

    I also know that both of us are not going to budge on our stance, but I’m posting this for others to see why we see what we see and then it is for them to go to God with.

    So, I’ll try to do my best to refute what stood out to me in some of your comments and why.

    To your account about pre-trib and it’s Latter Rain roots, sorry, it is what it is, they still promote this teaching and that should give you pause.

    I did say that there were no ‘special’ set of saints EXCEPT for 144,000…and these are sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel. That’s all that’s said about them. But people like to make many assumptions about more then that. I take it for what it says. The 2 witness’ as well. Do I believe that the 2 witness’ are just for Jews…no.

    Not sure what you’re getting at with the church and Israel reference. When Paul says ‘we’, he’s referring to the church. So don’t tell me it’s the jews alone in some parts and us gentiles in others. Once we are believers, we are neither jew nor gentile.

    Here’s the full scripture you’re talking about, Revelation 2:8-11:
    8″To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
    These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

    I’m sorry, but that one part “I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.” Could be saying exactly what it’s saying. Jesus has experienced the slander of these so called jews. Nobody is talking about Israel, it is the reference to someone saying they are a Jew possibly in a ritual, national sense. Instead they are a pretender who’s really from the Synagogue of Satan. Honestly, I think He is referring to the Pharisees or people like them. Remember how Jesus referred to them as a brood of vipers and said they make their converts even more sons of hell than themselves. Also notice, directly after that verse, verse 10 says Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Interesting statement, considering our topic. Anyways, I’m not sure what the Latter Rain teaching is about the Church and Israel, but I know what the bible says concerning who Israel (the people, not the land) is, I think you should read Romans 11. I’ll post it for all to see: (For all reading, please read this scripture carefully so that you will not miss what the Holy Spirit is saying)

    Romans 11
    The Remnant of Israel
    1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3″Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]

    7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes so that they could not see
    and ears so that they could not hear,
    to this very day.”[d] 9And David says:
    “May their table become a snare and a trap,
    a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
    10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    and their backs be bent forever.”[e]

    Ingrafted Branches
    11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

    13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

    All Israel Will Be Saved
    25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”[g]

    28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    Doxology
    33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
    How unsearchable his judgments,
    and his paths beyond tracing out!
    34″Who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has been his counselor?”[j]
    35″Who has ever given to God,
    that God should repay him?”[k]
    36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
    To him be the glory forever! Amen.

    In one of your comments, you say:

    “1) Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians who thought that they had already entered the tribulation and was telling them that it was no so.”

    Why would paul have to tell them they weren’t in The Great Tribulation if we aren’t supposed to go through it? He would just say, “don’t worry about that, you’re not going to go through it.” Why would they assume they were to go through the Great Tribulation?

    Don’t dismiss the words in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 ” According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord,”

    I’ve heard the Noah reference before and it doesn’t make any sense.? He was not taken from this earth, he was protected by the Ark, but then the flood and destruction receded and everything was new again. Plus, notice everyone else was taken out by God’s wrath, not Noah. Actually, if you think about it, Noah and his family were ‘left behind’, they were delivered from the wrath, but not taken completely out of the way. The wicked people were completely wiped out and then God started over, just as he will at the very end. I get the whole, “it will be like in the days of Noah” considering the debauchery and wickedness. But it seems like people are adding to this story of God’s provision to those who follow Him and slapping on pre-trib rapture allegory.

    Your reference to Rev 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev 3:10).

    Do you use “hour of temptation” to refer to the tribulation? What is tempting about tribulation?? The only thing I can think that will be tempting is to take the mark so you don’t have to go through the tribulation.

    The Tribulation will be hard for believers and people that don’t submit to the Beast system, but it will be peaceful for a time for the people that do take the mark. That’s why they’ll be marrying and giving in marriage..so on and so on. That’s the whole lure of the mark, don’t you get it? Take the mark and go back to your comfortable Utopian life. Don’t take the mark, well, you will be chased and hunted down like dogs, imprisoned and/or tortured/killed for what you believe. I’m sorry this doesn’t sit well with you, but Christians have been enduring persecution and tribulation for ages and will be so till the end of the age. Remember WWII. People ate and drank and married during that time, while atrocities were going on in their back yard. People do a good job of looking the other way when their comfort is at stake.

    Honestly, you prove the whole motive of your stance by saying this:
    “The word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation that will be like HELL on earth – You guys that want to go through this persecution have no idea what the tribulation is going to be like. You have no idea what the demonic world is like. I was in the occult for many years and I have seen things that I never want to see again.”

    It seems that’s why you kept searching for pre-trib loopholes. Just because I don’t want to go through the tribulation, doesn’t mean I won’t. I don’t want to go through tribulation/persecution any more than you or the next person. Who wants to go through persecution??? But, it’s necessary for what God wants to do, so I submit and pray that God will keep me from being a coward when the heat gets turned up. Just like all the refining scripture I posted in my last post, it is a necessary process.

    Here’s an interesting little piece about what the refining process does:

    A silversmith explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest to burn away all impurities. He had to sit and hold the silver in front of the fire all the time, and watch the silver all the time. But how does the silver smith know when the silver is fully refined? The silversmith answered saying, “Oh, that’s easy – when I see my image in it.”

    You’re implications about people with weak faith, are somewhat correct, although there is reference to the weaker brother, or weak faith in the bible when it comes to observing holidays, rituals, eating, works etc. Faith is a whole other topic, so I’ll try to say it this way; the ‘cultural christians’ will fall away (are currently falling away as well) because you are correct that there wasn’t a real relationship there to begin with, but they were still on the path to hopefully be convicted and receive Jesus Christ but that opportunity goes out the door when they realize that their golden ticket pre-trib rapture was a lie. Just like all the wounded sheep from the current false doctrines and false movements, many leave the faith because of the lies, never to return. That’s why truth is so important.

    I don’t understand why you don’t see this debate as a real issue. Why warn people about anything (like you do on your site) if there’s not a hope for them to turn to Jesus Christ and to not be deceived? You warn about all kinds of false doctrine for a reason, yet you throw that reasoning out the window when it comes to this pre-trib stuff. Why?

    The sheep should always be told to endure till the end…no matter what you experience and no matter what the persecution. That’s why pre-trib theory is dangerous, because it doesn’t do that.

    Yes, we should warn till our last breath, Jesus is coming back soon. I agree with you there. But when He comes back, there will be no turning back. A pre-trib (secret) rapture, gives an appearance of warning everyone he’s coming back but partially (although scripture says everyone will see His coming). With pre-trib theory you still have 7 years to get it together if you get ‘left behind’. But if you go with pretrib rapture theory then you can’t have the Holy Spirit around for the next 7 years, so I don’t understand how anybody gets saved during that time then (because it’s the Holy Spirit that convicts). Scripture says that people are martyred for their faith during The Great Tribulation. So which is right? Pre-trib theory or scripture?

    When I say “be careful what you’re promoting”, I say it because you have many people looking at your site and who listen to what you say. You have become a teacher in a public forum. Whether you say it’s just opinion, there are people that value what you say, and unfortunately because they trust your opinion, may not test everything. You are held accountable and responsible for what you feed the sheep. That is scriptural. That’s all I’m saying.

    I understand Deborah, that we can go round and round with this to the point of exhaustion and elevating ego. I have my points, you have yours. I believe we’ll have to agree to disagree. But for the sake of anyone who’s reading, I think our posts should be left up for people to consider and to go to God about.

    Thank you for your time.

  • Jackson

    You leave me very confused, on the one hand is IHOP-KC with very scriptural teaching, plus some rather questionable mystical things. On the other is you, the complete opposite in almost everything beyond basic catechismic beliefs, with some really good scripture points, but also some rather twisted ones. I believe that both of you are genuinely seeking God from your speech and actions, yet you come to such different ends. There are other things, the deep unsettledness I feel from your rather to-common il-logical statements and conclusions, yet for all the hype and seeming longing after God and working of the Holy Spirit at Onething ’09 the rather poor (musically, vocally, and enthusiastically) worship at youth group touched my heart so much more with Truths of God’s Word. (“He sees the depths of my heart and He loves me the same” -Isn’t that amazing, God sees us fully, yet he loves us wretched things.)

    Anyway, I’m still starting on that responses to the comments leveled at me, and maybe later will have the time to go through your dialouge on pre/post trib rapture.

    A wondering sinner Saved by Grace:
    Jackson

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    servant

    Not once on this blog have I ever told anyone to follow or adhere to what I say, I tell them to go to the Word of God. By you posting your comment you are also teaching in a public forum and people will listen to what you say and I am sure they value what you say too. No one trusts my opinion. If they do then that is not my problem, when they are to TEST everything I SAY as GOD COMMANDS in HIS WORD. You are holding me accountable for voicing my opinion about Pre-Trib, do you hold yourself accountable for your opinions. I don’t hold you accoutnable. It’s your opinion.

    As I said before, I think this is the third time now. If any of us see the tribulation and loses faith then they where not saved to begin with. But if people are watching for the very end and are not ready now thinking they still have time to live like the world does, well that is a big problem too.

    You come here and actually insult me when all I am doing is trying to place an urgency in people’s lives that they live each day as though Jesus were to come back the next second.

    So thank you for your time, and this post and blog will remain up until Jesus Christ the Son of God comes back.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jackson

    What on earth are you talking about. You are speaking about IHOP. And no commentes were levelled against you. You asked me a question and I answered it VERY NICELY. In fact Michael and Jean asked you very good questions in a very nice way. Good grief. If that’s the case what about the comment you just ‘levelled’ against me. Nothing but insults is what you said.

    Never the less, based on this comment and previous ones under the Mike Bickle IHOP posts you seem to have no problem with contemplative spirutality and seperating Jesus Christ from the Word of God as you stated. “But it’s not about adherence to the Word of God, it’s about Faith in the Christ.”

    Please move on. Thank you.

    I will post this comment of yours under to the IHOP post as well: IHOP – Contemplative Prayer Taught at Healing Rooms

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah

    Yes it is great idea to post that Alan Lester open letter to Angus.

    Blessings

  • Jean

    @ Jackson . . .
    The “confusion that you are currently experiencing is definitely not from God and I think it has a “deeper” root “problem”…
    Could you please share with us, in short, your personal testimony on how you came to be saved/born-again.
    If we know this, then I believe we might understand you better and where the “confusion you are having is coming from…
    Blessings

  • Jackson

    @deborah

    Sorry, you have a point, that was really out of left field for you, sorry.

    When I said “leveled” I was meaning that they were addressed to me, not that they were antagonistic in any way. They were very nice comments. I did not mean to insult you, but I suppose I did. I’m sorry, I should not have posted that without finding a better way to word my opinions.

    As to separating the Word of God from Jesus Christ, I don’t understand what your saying. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”, how can they be separate?

    I wanted to say this, and apologize, if you’d like to remove it before publishing that’d be fine.

    And, would answering Jean’s question be getting a little too off topic here?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you Jackson

    Ok going back to what you said a few comments ago http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/01/06/the-rapture-an-article-to-knock-your-socks-off/#comment-2441

    >> I’d disagree, “everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should [shall] have eternal life” (Jn 6:40) If you believe in Jesus Christ you are Saved, the rest of your theology may be crazy but your still Saved. Now, if someone who is Saved can have completely wrong theology is debatable. But it’s not about adherence to the Word of God, it’s about Faith in the Christ.

    I said you that can’t separate the WORD OF GOD from faith in Jesus Christ. You have stated that you can by saying that it’s not about adherence to the Word of God, it’s about Faith in the Christ.

    Please make sure you remember what you say and don’t misquote me :)

    The conversation on this topic has gone way off the tracks no point in stopping now lol. So you can answer Jean.

    People can follow the thread easily, so it’s not problem.

  • Christians are those trying to follow the teaching of Jesus. Jesus did not believe in a PRE trib rapture. He stated the elect, the Christians, will be gathered POST “after” the great tribulation (Matt 24:29-31 gives the sequence). Paul could not possibly have believed in a pre-trib rapture in II Thess. 1. He says precisely that Christians will be relieved of their suffering only at the “revelation of Jesus in flaming fire” to punish the wicked.
    In I Thess. 4 the Christians go up to meet the Lord Jesus as he comes down, and they escort him to Jerusalem for the Kingdom on earth to start.
    There is only one future coming of Jesus.

  • Amanda

    Anthony Buzzard

    Christians are those trying to follow the teaching of Jesus.

    Wrong. Christians are those who put their trust in Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Trinity.

    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Romans 3:21-28)

  • Michael Anthony

    Anthony B,

    You are making stuff up. Please learn to interpret scripture responsibly and don’t impose meanings into scripture. I used to be a post tribber and have dear friends that still hold to that view but at least they can actually reason as to why they hold to their views. You, different story – these are doctrinal drivebys.

  • Hi Deborah,

    Hope everybody is well. I have been following some of this, it is a very important issue as we all know. I would like to raise a point or two. I am yet to have a reasonable explanation from Tre Trib followers on 2 Thes. 2:1-5.

    2 Thessalonians 2
    1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    If we can discussed this: Verse 1 makes it clear it is about our Lord’s coming and our gathering unto Him. Verse 3 told not to be deceived, because the falling away should occur first( has been happening for who knows how long) AND “that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” be revealed.

    The question here is this: Who is the man of perdition? And it appears that “he” has to be revealed before the coming of our Lord.

    I may not be getting all of it, but i have been under the impression from working through Revelation that the man of perdition ” the abomination of desolation” will appear and that would be the beginning of the end. Verse5 tells of this man sitting in the temple of God, claiming to be God.

    I find it hard to understand with this timeline how the son of perdition will already be sitting in the temple of God, and then we will have the rapture if i understand the pre- trib ideology correctly, or maybe that will be the sign of the end, with the rapture and tribulation following that. Notice the timing of events in Mat. 24.

    Please voice your opinions regarding this. What i see is the warning out of the mouth of our Lord and Saviour: “Take heed that no man deceive you.” Mat.24:4

    Blessings

  • Amanda

    It appears that we have Internet problems. Please be patient and feel free to chat amongst yourselves.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Corne and everyone else (The first part is to answer Corne’s question) the rest is for anyone who cares.

    Quick one before I lose my connection again. Got Telkom working on my problem. This verse is to the Thessalonians (Jews) who thought that the rapture had taken place and Paul was telling them it was not so. Some false teachers had come their way after Paul left them and spun them a load of lies and wrote letters too them as if they were from the Apostles. So they (The Thessies haha) all had a nervous breakdown and wrote to Paul in shock. And Paul said, no, those letters were not from us. Beware of people who come and try deceive you. Jesus had not come back yet, you are not in the tribulation and the anti-Christ has not set himself up in Jerusalem.

    This is speaking about the time when Jesus actually sets foot in Israel to set up the Millennial kingdom. The Thessalonians were under the impression that the man of lawless had already taken over – because they themselves were living in what they thought were turbulent times and I would not argue that they weren’t either. But in comparison to what is to come? Paul was assuring them that it was definitely the wrong timing.

    >> Who is the man of perdition? And it appears that “he” has to be revealed before the coming of our Lord.

    So the man of perdition. THE anti-Christ. The man of Lawlessness sets himself up in the temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be God and that the world must worship him. He will do this in the middle of the Tribulation. 3.5 years later Jesus Christ will RETURNS physically and set foot on earth (we come back with HIM) and that is when JESUS CHRIST physically SETS UP the Millennial Kingdom.

    In fact I was sent an email today (one of the few I managed to actually receive sighs) and it was brilliant. I had to read it 3 times though to get what this guy was saying, cos it was a bit all over the place but boy… this adds an entire new perspective. NOT new revelation, just a better understanding of being ‘caught up’.

    Do you know that people have been raptured since Genesis and the history of ‘rapture type’ scenarios that symbolised what was going to happen to the saved in the last days. Elijah, Moses, etc and possibly Paul??? when he saw heaven and could not utter what he saw. Did Paul get caught up when he had that ‘out of body experience’ that he would not describe (only God knows) and then he came back? hehe. Today I can say I think I learnt something new.

    Then we have Noah (as in the days of Noah) like today when things are getting really really bad… how bad were the days of Noah before God saved Noah and his family and ‘toookkkk them away’ in the ark. How bad were those days really? Are the Nephilim real? If so where did Goliath come from in David and Goliath – as this was after the flood – Ok I am speaking about something way off now, but this does confuse me. I am not a know it all, this is all end times stuff and as time goes by, believers will know more and more because we are guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth. If we knew everything then there would be no point in watching and praying and constantly having to have FAITH and rely on Jesus’ promise that we will be protected.

    ….. And then Sodom and Gomorrah with God taking Lot and his wife out of the city before He destroyed it. The citizens wanted to rape the 2 Angels and the Angels blinded the men, and even being blinded did not cause them to repent. Hows that for a sign and wonder that still does not make people ‘SEE WHO God IS’. Pardon the pun. But I suppose it’s spot on. His sons in law refused to go with him and thought Lot was joking when he said they need to leave because God is going to destroy the city in the morning. So they stayed because marrying his daughters was more important than God. He took Lot out of the city. God took them out of the way… Want to know what is even worse…. Lot was willing to give his daughters over to the evil men to do with as they pleased to protect the Angels. So Lots focus was on God. Just as our focus should be on Jesus only – no matter what happens around us.

    One thing I want to add. You can get hit by a car tomorrow and never see the rapture or tribulation. Are you ready? Is everyone ready to die tonight and know where they are going?

    Just a thought :)

    I LOOK for Jesus. I quite frankly could not care about the Tribulation. All I know is that Jesus WILL COME BACK. Do we even know when the tribulation will start? We could be in it now…who knows. I don’t think so, I am just speaking hypothetically here. Maybe we are raptured just before things get too out of hand. Who knows. But Jesus does tell us to watch for HIM and look to the sky. If we are not wanting Him to come back right this minute, then what is wrong. We prefer the world, we wan’t to stay here just 1 minute longer and that minute becomes 1 week and then 1 month and then 6 months and a year and, and, and (in peoples minds) because they still have to achieve something?

    I cant wait another 10 years…or 5 years or 2 years for that matter for Jesus to come back. I want Him to come back now. For those who do not love the truth, and refuse Jesus as their Saviour – there is nothing I can do. For Jesus is the one who Saves. God knows when the LAST person will be saved before the time is up. Because He is the ONE who saves.

    I turn my back on this world and will walk toward Jesus and leave everything behind; family, friends, everything. They can’t save me. If anyone’s first thoughts are others welfare instead of wanting to worship at their Kings feet well…

    Now DO NOT get me wrong. This is not being nasty, or unloving. It hurts me tremendously when my own family want me to keep quiet when I constantly speak to them about Jesus – I sound like a broken record, yes it can be annoying. But when one is consumed with love for Jesus Christ you can talk about him 24/7 and never get tired of hearing the truth. Will I stop because they say so? No. Will I chose them over Jesus? No. Will I look back when Jesus comes? NO!

    So to everyone. Rapture (at any time) but not sure WHEN. Are you ready NOW????

    And a Cadbury PS: Latter Rain Word of Faith have actually never preached a proper Rapture as the entire movement is based on the fact that you can become God – they just forgot to mention this part 50 years ago. Now they have come out of the closet. And that prophesy by that girl means nothing. Just because she had ‘vision’ about something that is clearly in the Bible…well…says a lot eh. A bit of a Choo Thomas thing going on without the massive convulsions – I am sure her vision and telling it to everyone was rather orderly and lacked holy ghost laughter. Does that make the rapture false teaching? NO. Word of Faith preached Jesus Christ too and his crucifixion, does that make that false teaching because they preached that? NO. If Mormons teach that you need to be baptised does that make the teaching false? NO. If Jehovah’s Witnesses teach a heaven on earth, millennial kingdom type teaching, does that make Jesus Christ setting up a REAL Millennial Kingdom false? NO.

    You need to distinguish between the real Jesus Christ and the false Jesus Christ and his counterfeit teachings. We are living in a time of utter confusion and it’s only going to get worse and worse. You guys are not the only ones confused about this topic. However I do believe 100% there will be a rapture. Take it or leave it. Does being confused if there really were really such a thing as Nephilim make what I say on this blog false? NO. Did the Thessalonians all go to hell because they thought the Rapture and tribulation had come and gone, and they thought they missed Jesus Christ? NO. But they cared enough to cry out to Paul for instruction that they might have missed Jesus Christ’s coming and he smacked them over the head gently with a genuine reply email (letter) and told them…NO be careful that no one deceives you like you just were by false letters from people pretending to be Christian when they are not.

    Hence we have to WATCH and PRAY. If you are not watching, then you are not alert and are sleeping.

    People…think, think, think that is why I have this blog.

    Actually let me ask this question. Are you saved? Do you want to know Jesus Christ the Son of God? You could die tonight…

  • Hi Debs

    Perhaps your family aren’t asking you to choose them over Jesus. Perhaps they are asking you for respect, so as not to forcefeed your perception of Jesus to them?

    Blessings
    MH

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Merry Helper

    Oh it’s you again. Mr all faiths lead to the same God.

    Why don’t you show me some respect and not make silly comments about things you know nothing about.

    Also note that if you think you have telepathic abilities to see into my situation, I would recommend (with respect) that you stop because it appears your psychic feelers \ / or antenna are broken, and we don’t want you force feeding your ‘faulty’ perceptions of Jesus onto others now do we.

  • Jean

    @ Merry Helper . . .
    It is clear that you know nothing about being a servant of the Living God. Why?
    If you don’t respect/honor your parents you are not a servant of the living God. (Ef 6:1-3)

    Regarding the speaking and proclaiming of Jesus we are taught:
    Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    In the sad case where our parents do forsake us, we as servants of God has a promise:
    Psa 27:10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jean

    Thank you, and you are 100% correct.

  • Amanda

    Please note that the low activity level on this website is caused by Internet problems. DTW will be back as soon as possible.

  • Edna

    Back to the rapture

    OK, it all sounds wonderful and every one has it all sewn up. What I would like you to do is listen to Dr Chuck Misslers teaching on the rapture. He does a 12 part video presentation that took my interest. It is always good to get a wide perspective and different viewpoints because we all see through a glass darkly.

    It makes me remember how fed up I used to get when the question of the rapture came up in conversation. I was blasted by automatic fire with, “No one knows the day or hour,” and I hadn’t opened my mouth yet, so I as a ‘young Christian’ decided to study God’s Word for myself. (The best way) I noticed in Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Notice, (sign of thy coming and of the end of the world). Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Then in verse 32 Jesus teaches them about the Fig tree (Israel) and that the time is near. He says, (this generation) US. So we all agree the return of the Jews to Israel is a sign for US, this generation.

    Now Jesus answers the next part of the disciples’ question (end of the World) [age] Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. OK, now I am coming to the point, what has the passing away of heaven and earth got to do with the rapture?

    I get told that the “Day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night.(Rapture as the “day of the Lord”)but when I looked up the term “Day of the Lord” every single Scripture says it’s God’s wrath. Now surely if the “Day of the Lord” is God pouring out His wrath on the earth it can’t be the rapture. Jesus goes on to point out the days of Noah, all were destroyed except a few righteous, not so. That was judgement! and that is what is coming again, Gods wrath will be poured out but this will not be the passing away of heaven and earth i.e. 2 Peter 3…. THAT is when no one know the hour, only the Father. Satan will be loosened out of the pit for a little season, and man will again follow him and that is when God will destroy the earth with fire and the heavens will roll up like a scroll. No where does Scripture hint at how long the little season will be. Hence NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR HOUR. We are to look for His immanent return, in other words we must be ready, with oil in our lamps and not like the foolish virgins.

    Let us go to 1Th 4:13-18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Now read on ignoring the chapter and verse, because it was one letter to end, starting with verse 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    For yourselves know perfectly that the “day of the Lord” so cometh as a ‘thief in the night.’ Ok so it is God’s wrath that is coming as a ‘thief in the night’, where heaven and earth will pass away.

    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    We are inclined to forget that Jesus said: Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Praise God we are looking for the New Jerusalem.

  • Michael Anthony

    [Quote] Please note that the low activity level on this website is caused by Internet problems. DTW will be back as soon as possible. [End of Quote]

    Nice one DTW – making everybody think. Post an article about an imminent rapture then disappear.

  • Michael Anthony

    Edna,

    Another Chuck Missler fan. And I thought I was the only one left.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    LOL I wish. But then we would have met surely? So what happened? lol

  • J

    Does it matter whether Jesus will come once or twice? I know someone here said that it’s not enough to believe in Jesus, you have to have believe the Bible – and if he’s right and the Bible talks about the rapture – then I have to believe this interpretation even if a lot of people seem to disagree about it and even I don’t find the word rapture in the Bible. I know that is a bad argument because you don’t find the word Trinity in the Bible either, but then again that’s the argument that was used about the use of the word “rhythm” somewhere else on this website. You people confuse me!

  • Elmarie A

    Micheal

    On Chuck Missler – K House Africa have most of his dvd’s series available. I Recently bought “God Of Wonders” from them. It is not Chucks dvd though. If you need link I could post it here if it is ok with Deborah.

    Blessings

  • Michael Anthony

    Debs,

    [secret] I am writing this in invisible ink. Wanna see the traffic on this site go ballistic? [end of secret message]

    Based on the more reliable and scholastic interpretation of Matthew 28:1-7’s predictions and the fact that a day in the bible is a thousand years + plus the fact the the 69th week of Daniel ended in 12 AD add two thousand years and the return of the Lord has to be in 2012 (1000 + 1000 + 12). Because that day in 12 AD was on the feast of Treblenacles it falls on May. So around May 2012, my predictions – give and take a month for lunar shifts.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    J

    >> I don’t find the word rapture in the Bible

    In the bible it mentions being ‘caught up’ – caught up in Latin is raptusa = rapture

    >> don’t find the word Trinity in the Bible either

    The ‘term’ Trinity is used to state that God is ONE being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons: the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Count them, 1, 2 and yes 3 persons. They are all ONE but 3 separate persons.

    Matthew 28:19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Trinitarian formula).

    It’s not the word itself that can’t be found in the bible that’s important, it’s what it TEACHES.

    You don’t find the world bible in the bible either, so close that book you are reading because making trivial arguments to not want to believe in the Gospel truth is all you will carry on doing.

    >> that’s the argument that was used about the use of the word “rhythm”

    You have the wrong blog. No one would ever argue about the word rhythm here. No really…what for? lol

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie

    >> If you need link I could post it here if it is ok with Deborah.

    If not why not..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    [secret] I knew it! Those darn Mayans. Who gave them that calendar? But forget them, lets look at what the Bible says and I think May sounds like a good month too lol [message self destructs in 5 seconds]

  • Elmarie A

    link for K House Africa for those interested. http://www.khouseafrica.com/index.html

    [EDITED 29 Jan 2010: Khouseafrica = Chuck Missler’s website – please see my comment on Chuck Missler]

  • J

    >> In the bible it mentions being ‘caught up’ – caught up in Latin is raptusa = rapture

    Well in that case, Paul was once “raptured” (in 2 Cor 12) and then returned to earth. As far as I’m noncerned, Jesus told us “But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” If there is nothing to endure, it will be a pleasant surprise, but if I expect to be spared the worst and things get as bad Jesus said in Matt 24:22, I might think I missed it or something. So I’d rather be prepared to suffer as much Jesus did and be ready for it (1 Peter 4:1).

    >>>It’s not the word itself that can’t be found in the bible that’s important, it’s what it TEACHES.

    Some think it teaches Jesus will come twice, or people believe it teaches Jesus will come once, at the last trumpet, when the dead will rise and the living will be caught up, when everyone will be judged.

    >>>You have the wrong blog. No one would ever argue about the word rhythm here. No really…what for? lol

    So sorry, you’re right, although there was no need to make fun of me. It was in the Watch and Pray blog, where Thomas wrote “Apart from the fact that the words “rhythm” and “rhythms” never once appear in the Word of God, Stephan Joubert uses it to express the Emergent Church’s emphasis on service rather than salvation.” () But I’m glad you don’t fall for that argument.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    J

    >> Well in that case, Paul was once “raptured” (in 2 Cor 12) and then returned to earth. As far as I’m noncerned, Jesus told us “But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” If there is nothing to endure, it will be a pleasant surprise, but if I expect to be spared the worst and things get as bad Jesus said in Matt 24:22,

    I’ve already spoken about this in one of my long comments above – please go read it.

    Being caught up has NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS’ 2nd COMING. It’s a separate event. The rapture is where the Bride (the body of Christ) WE GO UP and meet Jesus in the AIR – It will happen so fast. Jesus’ 2nd coming is after the tribulation when HE PHYSICALLY COMES DOWN TO EARTH – everyone will see Him. The tribulation is for Israel and those gentiles left behind (who were not caught up) who will have another chance to be saved – but this time they will have to die for it, give their life for salvation. Is this the group you want to be part of?

    Either way, pre-trib teaching is the best teaching of all for it exhorts people to be ready at all times in their lives for Jesus Christ. Because you can die tomorrow. Anyone who is genuinely saved will NEVER denounce Jesus Christ – so this whole story of ‘ohhhh you can’t preach pre-trib cos people will not be prepared” is a load of nonsense. Like when they don’t see a rapture will like lose faith and then lose all inhibitions and join the dark side. I mean really. You are either BORN AGAIN, or you are not. Simple. You know who the enemy is, surely? Are ‘christians’ so easily persuaded? Apparenly they are as fragile as cheap porcelin plates is what everyone makes us out to be. No wait, they confuse born again Christians with false Christians.

    >> So I’d rather be prepared to suffer as much Jesus did and be ready for it (1 Peter 4:1).

    On my that is not what 1 Peter 4 means.

    1 Peter 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin…”

    “…because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin” NO, this is not physical suffering, this is dying to oneself, repenting of your sin, living a holy life as the Word of God commands, loving the truth which the the full gospel of Jesus Christ.

    The passage carries on to confirm this… 1 Peter 4:2 “so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.” and confirm again further down the passage…

    1 Peter 4:6-8 “For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. 7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.

    So the price Jesus Christ paid for you on the cross means nothing? You now need to work and suffer as He did in order to be saved in the end? This sounds Roman Catholic…suffer as Christ did. Why don’t you just start flailing yourself now… Or run off into Muslim territory and ask to beheaded for the sake of being a martyr. People die all the time, Christians die all the time, right now Christians are being murdered but believe me, the last thought on their mind was that they wanted to suffer as much as Jesus Christ did and that’s the pennance they need to pay for accepting Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

    >> I said: “You have the wrong blog. No one would ever argue about the word rhythm here. No really…what for? lol”
    >> You said: “So sorry, you’re right, although there was no need to make fun of me.”

    I was not making fun of you. How do you even come to that conclusion. Anyhow…. next….

    >> ….It was in the Watch and Pray blog, where Thomas wrote “Apart from the fact that the words “rhythm” and “rhythms” never once appear in the Word of God, Stephan Joubert uses it to express the Emergent Church’s emphasis on service rather than salvation.” But I’m glad you don’t fall for that argument.

    Huh? Ok. I know you brought in the ‘rhythm’ word as a mistake, thinking it was on my blog, when it was on Thomas’… but now you are saying that Thomas is wrong on what he had to say about Stephen Joubert when Stephan Joubert is a New Age teacher under the disguise of a conservative dutch reformed minister. Well I agree with Thomas and trying to use the argument on Thomas blog to try prove your point is just ludicrous.

    It’s ludicrous only because, when one is speaking the Word of God the Holy Spirit in you will lead you into all truth on every matter concerning scripture. You are using a false teacher (Stephan Joubert) to try prove me wrong. Not gonna work.

  • Michael Anthony

    Most people get confused with Matthew 24 aka The Olivet Discourse. A good hermeneutic is to look at who the audience is [ look it up, it’s simple] then see how Jesus addresses this audience in both church terms and Jewish/for Israel terms [ he switches]. Endure till the end is also read as addressed to Israel, not the church. This is a long explanation and requires a lot of cross references – Chuck Missler does a masterful, job at this.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    Indeed. I so wish people could just get out of this mindset that the end time is for Israel and we (the current church) are not Israel. Trying to get this point across is giving me grey hairs. It’s enough to make grown men cry, I tell ya…

  • J

    Deborah, trying to make you happy with my beliefs will be just as frustrating. But you have an attitude as if you have all the answers and everyone else is just being slow. Why if women are not allowed to preach to congregations, when there are no walls around they are the most vocal? Is it because of the church or because of women that Paul made that a rule?

    A person is either ready or not ready when Jesus returns (or pulls us up) and no excuse will do. I know that much. To be born again means to live a life preserved by faith in God, regardless of physical or spiritual suffering. Like the faith of the church of Philadelphia kept them safe (Rev. 3:10) even if they were martyred physically. They didn’t need to suffer to be saved, but they were going to suffer because they were saved. I understand the difference and I hope you weren’t just trying to make me sound stupid (or Catholic *gasp*, they’re just the worst sinners aren’t they?)

    I’m wary of people who want to have spiritualise something to change the meaning, as if the words don’t mean what they say or weren’t intended for the people they were meant for. So thank you for your point Michael. I see Jesus was speaking to his disciples, but Matthew asks the reader (the church?) to pay attention. There is still a period during which God’s chosen ones will be tempted (Matt. 24:24) and immediately after that (Matt. 24:29-30) Jesus will come visibly. The fact that the angels will gather “his chosen ones” (v31) from all over the world surely indicates that there will still be chosen people (people whom He chose in advance; Rom. 8:29) on the earth when he comes.

    As for my point about Thomas – I meant his argument seemed to rest on the use of the word in scripture, which you told me is the wrong way to look at it. It just sounds like you’re using double standards, as if you and Thomas are justified to use words outside the Bible, but if someone else uses a “non-Biblical” word like rhythm, it’s enough to support the accusation that he’s New Age?

    I’m just saying, slander makes you look bad.

  • J

    God’s new covenant is also only for the people of Israel and Judah (Jer. 31:31)

    The only way to have part in those promises is to be grafted into the branch of Abraham (Rom. 11:17). The end times are for everyone, but only those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    J

    >> God’s new covenant is also only for the people of Israel and Judah (Jer. 31:31)

    So what are you saying? You are a Jew? You again have quoted this scripture completely out of context.

    Jeremiah 31:31-34

    A New Covenant

    31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    The new covenant is JESUS CHRIST. God is saying He is sending the Israelites His Son Jesus Christ as a new covenant that they no longer need to follow the law, for the law will then be written in their minds and minds.

    When you are born again J you become a spiritual child of Abraham. You are NOT A JEW. Jews are physical descendants of Abraham and God’s chosen people, but because they have not received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour they are not spiritually born into God’s kingdom because they rejected Him. Their time will come again during the tribulation where God will show them that Jesus Christ IS THEIR MESSIAH. God says that the time of the gentiles will be over as the world attacks Jerusalem.

    Does this mean Jews are not being saved right now and since Jesus resurrected? Of course not. Does this mean gentiles will not get saved during the tribulation? Of course not.

    Please J go and study this more…I have already explained this to a certain extent here.

    >> The only way to have part in those promises is to be grafted into the branch of Abraham (Rom. 11:17). The end times are for everyone, but only those who believe in Jesus will be saved.

    Now you contradict yourself. First to be part of the new covenant you have to be a Jew but then the end times is for everyone. Actually that is just very confusing because…. actually now you have really confused me… Anyhow. You do realise you are actually in an about way being anti-Semitic because if the ‘church’ has replaced Israel you have inadvertently taken the place of Jewish people and will claim Jerusalem for yourself.

    You are using the same type of verses that the Apostolic Reformation (Latter Rain Manifest Sons of God movement) just love to use… Where they take the promises God gave to Abraham and to the Jews to the Gentiles. This my dear J is called stealing!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    J

    Oh for crying out loud. Look if you don’t want to follow the truth, please do not make your problems mine. You came here ASKING and when I give you the answer you get upset and now I am the one with a problem. You see J, it’s very obvious as to what people believe when they post their very first comment. And always the deeper underlying false doctrine exposes itself more and more the more they comment.

    You had no intention of agreeing with anything that I have to say. So now you throw it back at me and give me a hard time because I will not agree with your LATTER RAIN beliefs.

    If you don’t like what I have to say with regards to YOUR questions, then go ask someone else who you will agree with.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie and Michael

    Ok, I have to say this because you know well we are not here to lead people astray.

    I have done a lot of research on Chuck Missler and he is not one bit ok. Just because someone teaches the rapture does not make then ‘Christian’. Just as someone can teach about Christ but does not make them Christian. Satan is not stupid. Michael you know that you look at the whole council of God before you make a conclusion that someone is really preaching the FULL gospel of Jesus Christ or not. You can’t just look at someone’s dispensationally views and think they must be ok because they believe in a rapture.

    I will post an article about this very very soon.

    In fact this Chuck Missler topic is perfect timing because all of a sudden I have just realised the must much much deeper reason to FIFA’s interest in Africa and why we got the 2010 soccer world cup and the sudden cash flow dumping (by who knows who) into South Africa to expand IT throughout Africa like quickly. Did you know the government is giving IT companies millions of Rands to train IT professionals for free? Especially in the telecoms/internet area. And I am not talking small change here. Training into the hundreds of thousands for some. They are training guys who already have extensive experience to become serious professionals in their field to roll out the PLAN for Africa.

    Yeah I know…you must be thinking “what on earth is she talking about, what’s Chuck Missler got to do with soccer?”

  • Michael Anthony

    Debs,

    I would not go down that route – I have listened to Chuck’s commentary on at least 12 books of the bible (that is the whole books) and have found not a single thing that I could say is suspect. If you are talking about the Y2K thing and the cosmic code thingymajik, the latter is highly misunderstood. The former; he has admitted to making mistakes and apologized.
    I have read some of the common critiques of his teachings on the Internet, most of them are highly unbalanced and others just make up accusations. Either that or they don’t understand Chuck’s [very] indepth approach to bible teaching. Chuck teaching style is not everybody’s cup of tea.

    On this one we highly disagree, unless you can come up with something explosive. For far I have not see any radioactive signs on his teachings.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    I will go down this route. Because I am not going to critique the Y2K thing or his fascination with occult teaching and UFOS. No. It’s far worse than that. And yes we all make mistakes and we repent and then we change our ways.

    You don’t have to agree with me, just let me write the article and then you can take it from there. It’s going to take me while to get too, probably have it up by Sunday evening or Monday. I am going on holiday so will be ‘missing in action’ again for periods of time.

    In the mean time just relax like you are at the beach too ahha.

  • J

    I don’t even know who these latter rain people you talk about are or what they believe, but if you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, doesn’t it?

    Is this how you usually share your faith with people, by calling them names? Oh, so you know me from a single comment? How very discerning of you, you seem so proud of it too. But do you also notice the spirit of hatred in your words?

    But no, you are just confusing yourself. What do YOU think it means to be “grafted in”? Read Romans 11:17 and then tell me how we share in the nourishment from the root of God’s “olive tree” – surely you know who the olve tree is. Do you really intend to say God made gentiles commit THEFT by?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    J

    >> I don’t even know who these latter rain people you talk about are or what they believe

    Ok, well now you know what to go and research.

    I’ve read Romans 11:7 and based on how you have not quoted all your other scripture correctly I just don’t have the time right now to fix this mis-interpretation too.

    Oh wait I did. You again think being grafted is physical – it’s spiritual. And goes right back to what I said before.

    Right, over and out. I got other more important things to do. I have explained quite clearly that what you believe is not correct. Now it’s up to you to go and do your own research. If you are having any form of conviction in your heart about what you are saying and knowing fully well that you are not understanding scripture correctly then I pray you listen the Holy Spirit and go and SEEK THE TRUTH. Otherwise not more I can do.

    You think you are jewish, jews are gentiles, you are going to take over Israel along with the rest of this false church. You have it all the wrong way around. Paul kept speaking about gentiles in the bible who thought they needed to be circumcised and become Jews, he warned over and over again to stop it!! he called them the synagog of Satan in the book of Rev. because these are the ones who will be attacking Israel as they want it for themselves.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    J

    And YES, THEFT. I can’t right now even think of a better word! Non-Christians trying to STEAL Israels promise that God made to THEM that he would restore them to their land. And NO YOU ARE NOT A JEW.

    I am a saved born again gentile a child of God – a new creation in Jesus Christ
    When a Jew is saved they are born again children of God – a new creation in Jesus Christ

    A gentile that is not saved is NOT SAVED
    A Jew that is not saved is NOT SAVED

    Oh my word….. you have actually given me a headache.

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah

    >>And YES, THEFT. I can’t right now even think of a better word! Non-Christians trying to STEAL Israels promise that God made to THEM that he would restore them to their land. And NO YOU ARE NOT A JEW.>>

    Proffesor Johan Malan has long articles about the “Israel Vision” believe, It just comes to mind. Maybe I can find some for you, if you don’t already have them. Article on it could be good, what do you think?

    Alot of the Afrikaners and Isreal vision people, believe they are God’s chosen nation,it is very very deeply embedded in my generation and also the older generation. The same STEALING taking place.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie

    Yes please. In fact I was speaking to my husband about Johan Malan last night and I was thinking of posting a lot of his stuff.

    I know all about the Afrikaner thing. I am one, I just speak English (tragic, I know…). If I were to go by my family tree my husband and I are both from the tribe of Reuben. That whole Huguenot French thing. Dutch, French…Scotish – In fact I am quite a “pavement special” haha. My hubby’s family though, did well to keep it real LOL.

    This is the whole appeal as to why Angus Buchan’s teaching got to South African’s so easily and quickly. As per commenter ‘J’ I am completely so not gonna make it because I am not from the tribe of Judah – of course he had no idea when he wrote his comment. *puts hand to forehead and faints*. So where does that leave the rest of the world? Oh my… let’s so not go onto that topic.

    It’s ok J.

    I don’t take these things personally. I understand what’s happening. Now you need to start doing your own studying on all of this. Make up your mind quickly though, cos it’s taken me 4+ years to study all of this. I am handing it to you and giving you a head start. I got my headstart from Mike Oppenheimer and his ministry. I did not know whether I was coming or going at one stage. The Holy Spirit led me, I read and read and read, I searched and searched, bible open, books, prayer, I cried, I begged, I pleaded. I WANTED TO KNOW THE TRUTH. And now the Gospel of Jesus Christ is so easy to understand that it breaks my heart when people just can’t or don’t want to take the effort to find the truth.

    Everyone here seems to think I am this mean nasty person, full of hatred, unloving, whatever… you have no idea that love is warning, trying to protect people from harm. That I love people so much that I will sit here and take the insults and threats and just not budge because I know if I do God will hold me accountable.

    There are times when I am so tired that I don’t even have the words to express how much I am not worthy of His love for me and I just sit and cry. I sin daily. And there are times when I think I can’t even come to Him in prayer because I watched a tv program and the Holy Spirit warned me to change the channel – the swearing, the blaspheming. But I didn’t.. and I feel horrible and it hurts HIM. I am ashamed. I repent, I ask Him to forgive me for hurting Him. And I do my utter best to listen to the Holy Spirit the next time I get the urge to watch the movie simple because the story line is good, thinking I can just ignore the bad parts and everything will be ok. IT’S NO OK.

    Love…….. unbelievers love too. Wordly love and Biblical love.

    Ok, I am now going to make dinner.

    On the bright side. I will be at the sea tomorrow. Please don’t all miss me at once haha :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Did I say I was going to the sea? Oh yeah I did. Ok I am just rubbing it in *grins*

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah

    Good I wil email them to you.

    Enjoy the sea. Will surely miss you.

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah

    I have sent you 8 articles one of them, that open letter to angus . Hope you can download. please let me know when you get them.

  • Elmarie A

    >>know all about the Afrikaner thing. I am one, I just speak English (tragic, I know…). If I were to go by my family tree my husband and I are both from the tribe of Reuben. That whole Huguenot French thing. Dutch, French…Scotish – In fact I am quite a “pavement special” haha. My hubby’s family though, did well to keep it real LOL.>>

    So am I, a pavement special too lol. The tribe of Reuben, well me sort of also think so . French, Flemish, German and Hubby Dutch, English and Welsh ??

    >>This is the whole appeal as to why Angus Buchan’s teaching got to South African’s so easily and quickly. >>

    I have the same idea. I want to try and find the connecion. It does make sense though.

  • cecilia

    me grinn…..s too!
    cecilia

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Michael

    Here is the Chuck Missler article: Dr. Chuck Missler, SWANsat and the Auric™ Currency
    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/02/17/dr-chuck-missler-swansat-and-the-auric%e2%84%a2-currency/

  • tony

    interesting stuff. i believe in a post trib rapture,for the record.
    i am seeking answers. i thought satan had already been cast out of heaven and the battle in heaven between the angels already fought.
    also using the term anti-semetic about someones thoughts is too easy.
    i believe gentile born again men and women are also the seed of Abraham as well as israelites.
    as for Rev 3v9 which has been mentioned a few times i think it is quite clear.
    95% of todays known jewery in israel and worldwide are kazar or ashkenazi, a converted heathen tribe, about 700ad,from centralish europe, converted for political reasons. they have no right to call the Holy Land their ancestral home
    as their ancestors never set foot in it. but it seems whoever they are they are going to have to worship at the feet of the church of philadelphia.
    where the majority of the biblical israelites are is anyones guess.doubt its the Holy Land as the number of israelites is compared to the sand on the sea shore not the few million easily accounted for worldwide.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    tony

    So you are dominionist. Ok. No problem. So you wanna reclaim the promise land, I understand. I am sure every Arab agrees with you too. Paid for your air ticket yet? Don’t waste to much time, seats are filling up quickly.

  • tony

    hi Deborah
    did not know what a dominionist is! looked it up, cant say i am but dont totally disagree. all i know is that i want to keep on looking at your site and learning.
    i think your site is good for me. thanks.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    tony

    no problem. I am going to post an article within the next few hours on Dominionism and you will see that how Dominionists view Israel is how you view them. Let me get it up and then read it and take it from there ok.

    I am not here to fight. I am just tough on my view point and I call a spade a spade – so I seem harsh, but in reality I am telling the truth and when people don’t like what they hear then I am the bad meanie. Fortunately for them I don’t care what they think. I have moved way past the sniffling ‘how dare they say that to the ‘oh whatever, use it don’t use it’ stage. taking offence is so last season. lol

  • louise

    My mind is like mashed potatoes reading all this stuff.

    I have gone from Patrick Heron back to the Bible then googled then back to the Bible then John McAurthur googled back to GODS word, then found Chuck Missler, researched plenty more then back to the Bible, then Prof WA Liebenberg then back to the bible as he has now moved in with his girlfriend and says its bibical to live with her as he will marry her soon one day. So I stopped going there.
    I am exhausted and I now needs Gods rest.

    Hubby comes in and say Hey read this new site, its called discerning the world. Now I am back to my Bible and Google.

    Thank you for setting up this site.

    Always new that man in the brown hat was not right but I was scared to open my mouth. Don’t touch Gods annoinointed I was told.

  • Amanda

    Louise

    he will marry her soon one day.

    You’re funny!

  • Richard T

    Great site. I too have held onto a rapture belief even though many charismatic churches are either teaching that we are to make the kingdom of God here on earth or preach the post-trib rapture. In reality any other belief except the rapture does not make sense. We have authority over Satan, so how could the anti-Christ appear? Some claim that a rapture doctrine makes one complacent. How absurd, you could be going anyday, besides if you really love Jesus you are not just sitting around hoping the rapture is coming. Sure I would like to fight it out in the tribulation and certainly I am not going to give up hope if I see all the tribulation things come to pass. Imagine the kickoff to the tribulation with all the believers gone..talk about a housing crisis. Right now we have about 2-3% of all mortgages in default. When the Christians leave in the rapture who is going to pay their bills? If suddenly 50 million people or more leave the US look at all those extra houses..talk about instant collapse and confusion.

    Anyway, God’s blessings to all who come to search on this site.

  • moscowbob

    Hello All,

    Could somebody please exaplain to me where this fits with the rapture?
    In verse 52 below it states “at the last trump”, the end of the tribulation. So does this mean only some true believers will be raptured before the tribulation, and some left to sit it out ?

    1Co 15:50-53
    (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Thank you

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    moscowbob

    1) There are different trumpets for different things that are going to take place.
    2) This last trump is not meaning the ‘last trumpet’ that is blown once and for all. This trumpet sounds when the body of Christ (those who are truly and utterly born again) are caught up in the tinkle of an eye to meet Jesus in the air.
    3) There are 2 other trumpets that sound AFTER the Rapture in Zechariah 9 and Isaiah 27
    4) There are not two sets of Christians; one that makes it into the rapture and ones that don’t. Good grief no. How terrible would that be. Who would be able to tell?

    No. There are those who are true believers, right now, this moment, who are born again and love the Lord Jesus Christ with all their heart ,and this includes all who have died before us over the least 2000 years or so who were born again. These are the ones who will be raptured.

    Then then are the fake Christians. Let’s just call them unbelievers – they are left behind. No Christian is left behind. One needs to make a clear distinction between a genuine child of God and someone that makes like they are but are far from it.

    During the time of tribulation these unbelievers (who know the truth, but refused to accept it) have a chance to be saved, but it’s not going to be pleasant for them at all.

    So the church (body of Christ) will no longer be on earth, and the time of the Gentiles will be over as the focus then shifts to Israel and Jerusalem. Will Gentiles be able to be saved during this time? Oh of course yes but the focus is now back to Israel

    .Also please make a big distinction between the current world ‘Christian’ who think they are Israel (Word of Faith/Apostolic and Prophetic etc) and need to go marching off to save Jerusalem. These are not Christians, these are what the Bible calls the ‘synagogue of Satan = those who think they are Jews but are not’. They cause nothing but destruction as per Joel 2.

  • miles

    I have been interested in the rapture subject for some time. I seems that MK. 13:24-27 favors post-trib. What are your thoughts.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    miles

    My thoughts are in the comments section above regarding Mark 13:24-27. I think…. Please go read and if not, then I will make a plan to answer it.

  • moscowbob

    Hello Deborah,

    Thank you for your response, I am not sure I follow what you mean, could you please clarify if you do not mind.

    DTW:
    “1) There are different trumpets for different things that are going to take place.”

    Do you mean the trumpets of the Book Of Revelation ?

    DTW:
    “2) This last trump is not meaning the ‘last trumpet’ that is blown once and for all. This trumpet sounds when the body of Christ (those who are truly and utterly born again) are caught up in the tinkle of an eye to meet Jesus in the air.”

    Could you please explain what “last trump” means in this verse?
    1Co15:52 “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump..”

    Could you supply Bible reference to show the difference between the two?

    DTW:
    “3) There are 2 other trumpets that sound AFTER the Rapture in Zechariah 9 and Isaiah 27”

    The verses in these two chapters I read the following:
    Zec 9:9 – First Advent
    Zec 9:10 – Second Advent
    Zec 9:14 – The trumpet God blows (last trump???)
    Zec 9:15 – God defends
    Zec 9:16 – God saves

    Isa 27:13 – Gathering of Isreal (last trump???)

    Thank you for your time.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    This is a nice explanation:

    When is the Rapture?

    1. What is the Rapture?

    John 14:3 (NIV)
    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
    1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (NIV)

    50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–
    52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised
    imperishable, and we will be changed.
    53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1,3,6-7 (NKJV)
    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
    Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of
    sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
    6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the
    way.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NIV)
    After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
    the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    2. What are the main views of the Rapture?

    Pre-Trib Rapture — Before the Tribulation
    Mid-Trib Rapture — Midpoint of Tribulation
    Post-Trib Rapture — End of Tribulation
    Partial Rapture — Before and End of Tribulation
    Prewrath Rapture — Three-fourths into Tribulation

    3. What will happen at the Rapture?

    • Realization

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (NIV)
    13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
    14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen
    asleep in him.

    • Revelation

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NIV)
    According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord,
    will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    • Return

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 (NIV)
    15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord,
    will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with
    the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    • Resurrection

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NIV)
    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with
    the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    • Removal

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NIV)
    After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
    the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    • Reunion

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NIV)
    After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
    the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    • Reassurance

    1 Thessalonians 4:18 (NIV)
    Therefore encourage each other with these words.

    4. When is the Rapture?

    Matthew 24:42 (NASB77)
    “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

    Matthew 24:44 (NIV)
    So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

    Matthew 25:13 (NIV)
    “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

    Acts 1:7 (NIV)
    He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

    Matthew 16:3 (NIV)
    …You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.

    Matthew 24:6-8,33-34 (NASB77)
    6 “And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things
    must take place, but that is not yet the end.
    7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be
    famines and earthquakes.
    8 ” But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs… 33 even so you too, when you see all these
    things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away
    until all these things take place.

    Application:

    1. Keep Looking for the Lord

    Philippians 3:20 (KJV)
    For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:

    Titus 2:13 (NASB77)
    looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NIV)
    and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead–Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

    2. Keep Living for the Lord

    Titus 2:11-14 (NIV)
    11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
    12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in
    this present age,
    13 while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
    14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own,
    eager to do what is good.

    2 Peter 3:12,14 (NIV)
    12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the
    heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
    So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at
    peace with him.

    Matthew 24:45-47 (NASB77)
    45 ” Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their
    food at the proper time?
    46 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
    47 “Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

    from: http://www.crossroads.org/attachments/Bible_02_14_2010.pdf

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    moscowbob

    I am quite busy today so I am giving you a copy and paste answer.

    Is 1 Cor. 15:52 the last trumpet the same as in Rev.11:15?

    There’s no Biblical requirement that the Rapture of the Church spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 has to occur in conjunction with the 7th Trumpet judgment of Revelation. In fact only the coincidental use of the word trumpet connects them. Beside that how can you have a secret Rapture be the last in a series of predictable and identifiable events?

    There are other trumpets mentioned in Scripture and in Jewish tradition. For instance the trumpet that closes the Feast of Trumpets is called the Last Trump. Does that mean the Rapture has to happen on the Feast of Trumpets? Or that the Trumpet judgments will occur during the Fall Feasts?

    The 7th Trumpet judgment is never called the last trump, by the way, and is associated with the judgment of Earth, not the Rapture of the Church. Nor is it ever called the Trumpet Call of God as in 1 Thes. 4:16.

    But there is an interesting connection between 1 Thes. 4:16 and Exodus 19:13, and both involve the Trumpet Call of God. In these two cases and only these two it’s the sound of the trumpet that’s important, not the trumpet itself, and in both cases the sound is said to be coming from God.

    Some theologians say these two trumpets of God recall the two horns of the ram caught in the thicket when Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac. They call the Exodus Trumpet the left one, or First Trump, and say that God will call the Israelites back to the Land in the End Times by blowing the right one, or Last Trump. If this is the case then the Last Trump will most likely be blown at the close of the Battle of Ezekiel 38-39, placing the Rapture at the time of Ezekiel’s battle, as I believe it to be.

    But the safest view is that Paul’s use of the phrase last trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is simply to identify the trumpet call that accompanies the Rapture as the last one the Church will hear on Earth.

  • moscowbob

    Deborah,

    Thank you very much for your answer, but I have just read throught the post explaining the rapture, and I dont think I am ready to subscribe to such a docrine just yet – I am not so learned in the Word.

    There are too many questions in my mind which conflict with this and I can see now that it will just lead to endless questions and answers.

    For now I shall put it in the cateory “not from God” since there are too many arguments and theories (confusion) and does not comply with the simplicity of Christ in my mind.

    I thank you for your time and effort, I appreciate it.

    Kind regards and peace to you.

  • cecilia

    >>> moscowbob,March 9th – “Could somebody please exaplain to me where this fits with the rapture?”

    from this I believe most would have understood that you really understand the rapture or at least ‘know’ about the rapture?

    Then here in your post on the 11th you say you are not ready to subscribe to such a doc(t)rine as yet? and remark you’ll put it in cate(g)ory “not from God”?

    ok, I’ll just answer this in shorthand for you:
    Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, no other subscription necessary => eternal life => rapture, at whatever stage of history.

    James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lords’ coming is near!

    thanks Deborah! I think you’ve posted a VERY thorough explanation about the rapture, seen from all sides!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    moscowbob

    Hmmmmm ok. Do you believe in Salvation? Where will you be during the tribulation. You can’t just knock those verses off the table and file them under ‘not of God’ when those are GOD’s Word.

    Here is another for you:

    The Last Trump

    by Jamma Mokhriby

    Part II

    In part one of this series of messages on the Rapture we shared that there are 4 basic views of the timing of the removal of the Church from the earth. We also shared why this event described in I Thessalonians 4:14-18 and I Corinthians 15:48-55 is commonly referred to by believers as the “Rapture.”

    Some believe the Rapture will take place at the end of the age before the start of the final 7 year Tribulation Period prophesied of in Daniel 9:27.

    Believers who hold to this view are known as Pre-Tribulationists.

    There are others who believe the Rapture will happen at some time during the Tribulation Period. These believers hold to positions called Mid-Trib or else Pre-Wrath.

    Then lastly is the view that the catching up of believers will not take place until the close of the Tribulation as Christ is descending to the earth to destroy the wicked. This is known as Post-Trib.

    Until proven otherwise by the Church entering the final 7 year Tribulation Period, we at “Rapture Watch” believe it is scriptural to devote our faith to the biblical instruction of expectancy inherent in the Pre-Trib position. To ignore the significant corroboration the Scriptures present for this teaching on the imminency of this Blessed Hope is unwise in our opinion. Placing the timing of the Rapture later casts an unwarranted shadow of fear regarding the Lord’s plan for His Church during the approaching time of terrible tribulation and Wrath.

    One commonly used argument raised against the Pre-Trib position originates from the Rapture Scripture found in I Cor. 15:52. The Scripture reads, “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

    Opponents to the Pre-Trib teaching maintain that this “last trump” must be the same one that the 7th Angel blows during the latter part of the Tribulation Period which is recorded in Revelation 10:7 since this is the last trumpet mentioned being blown in the Book of Revelation.

    Pre-Trib opponents find themselves at odds with Scripture on this point when faced with the fact that the “angelic” 7th trumpet of Rev. 10:7 is not the last biblically recorded supernatural trumpet to ever be blown.

    Isaiah 27:13 describes what will take place after Jesus Christ has returned to the earth. The time frame presented is after the Tribulation has concluded and Christ has begun His Millennial Reign. It is during this time that a supernatural trumpet will be heard throughout the lands.

    Quoting we read, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the Holy Mount at Jerusalem.”

    This Scripture, along with Zechariah 9:14, which tells of the Lord blowing another trumpet at His return, provide substantial clarification regarding the timing of the Rapture.

    First it verifies that the Last Trumpet spoken of at the Rapture in I Thess. 4:16 is a uniquely appointed trumpet designated for the end of the Church age and thoroughly refutes the Mid-Trib assertions that there are no other trumpets blown after the angelic tribulation trumpet of Rev. 10:7.

    This is conclusive by the trumpets of Zechariah 9 and Isaiah 27 being blown at the very close and then again after the Tribulation – thus after the angelic 7th trumpet of Rev. 10:7

    The angelic trump of Rev. 10:7 only presents the last in a series of seven blown trumpets. Revelation 11:15 reveals that this trumpet announces the day when Jesus will begin His reign and will lay His claim to the earth.

    Without animosity for fellow believers in Christ who adhere to Post-Trib Rapture teachings, Isa. 27:13 and Zech. 9:14 also greatly narrows the field of debate as to the timing of the Rapture by eliminating the Post-Trib position entirely.

    This is shown by the Isa. 27:13 statement about the people who “were ready to perish.” The mention of the fact that these people were about to perish verifies that they will be mortals.

    The central question of importance is, “Who are these surviving mortals?”

    According to Post-Trib adherents, when Jesus Christ returns with His saints (see Rev. 19:4 & Jude verses 14-15) the Church will have been caught up only moments earlier to join the Lord for warfare as He is descending from Heaven to do battle at Armageddon.

    Their belief is that there is no time allowance for any communion or celebration between the Church and the Lord, but instead are abruptly changed into glorious, celestial beings in order to partake in the bloodiest war in history. For a brief moment the Lord’s trumpet blast prophesied of in Zech. 9:14 might appear to support this scenario.

    Here the problem arises with the unknown mortals of Isa. 27:12-13. We know already by Isaiah that these mortals who were ready to perish are believers in the Lord because they are going up to Jerusalem during the millennium to worship Him.

    So our first significant revelation from Scripture is that these people shown living during the earthly rule of Christ are mortal believers, who for some reason were not caught up to meet Christ and glorified with immortal bodies at His coming as Post-Trib theology requires.

    Secondly, if these people had been unbelievers at Christ’s coming with His Saints, according to Rev. 13:7-8 they would have had to be destroyed as followers of the Anti-Christ.

    Speaking of this man of sin and his followers we read, “And it was given unto him to make war with the [tribulation] saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindred’s, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

    Revelation 19:20-21 states without reservation that the Anti-Christ and all his followers are destroyed at Christ’s coming. John 3:18 makes this deadly fate of unbelievers at Christ’s coming quite plain.

    The conclusion is logical and inescapable. Since there are mortal believers left alive during Christ’s reign who were not glorified at Christ’s coming they cannot be members of the entity known as the Church. Thus no Rapture of the Church will be taking place at the close of the Tribulation Period.

    The saint-filled Church which is seen returning with Christ at His coming at Armageddon in Rev. 19 could only have been Raptured some time earlier then the Post-Trib teaching proposes.

    As to who the mortal Millennium believers are who were about to perish, they can only be those who became believers after the Rapture took place.

    These are the Tribulation saints who had to survive the murderous pursuit of the Anti-Christ described in Rev. 13:7. They will be permitted to live on in Christ’s kingdom alongside the resurrected Old Testament saints who were promised an earthly inheritance.

    The simple reason why they were not Raptured and glorified at Christ’s coming is because the Rapture had to have already taken place prior to that time. These are the surviving and resurrected believers who will repopulate the planet under Christ’s ruler ship as is revealed to us in such passages as Zechariah 8:3-5 and Daniel 12:9 & 13.

    Additional scriptural proof for this prophetic picture is conclusive. The initial gathering together of all the wicked for destruction at Christ’s coming with His Saints can be verified by the scriptural passages found in Matthew 13:30,38-42 & 49-50 & 24:38-41.

    Then the subsequent preserving and gathering together of the remaining mortal believers with a trumpet after His return is shown in Matt. 24:22 & 29-30.

    It is a worthwhile endeavor for prophecy students to more thoroughly explore Zechariah 9:14 where we are told of the one other time than I Corinthians 15:22 when God will blow His trumpet.

    As we have shared, the time of this trumpet blast is at the close of the Great Tribulation. Chapters 9 & 10 of Zech., when read in full context, abundantly refutes any notion that this is the trumpet blast heralding the Rapture since believers are not changed into glorified beings, but are instead anointed upon the earth as great warriors. They do not return with the Lord from Heaven, but are aided from Heaven.

    We are shown that these are mortal believers who, after the Lord returns, will thrive as mortals in the land of Israel. Zechariah 10:8-10 further reveals that these are the same mortals who in Isa. 27:13 were about to perish in the lands of Assyria and Egypt.

    The passage in Zech. 9:14 prophesies that the day of this trumpet blast is the same day of the Lord’s return. If at any point in history there could possibly be a Post-Trib Rapture of the living this surely should have been it, but there is none!

    The unbelievers are gathered and destroyed at this time while the believers remain mortals on the earth to fight, conquer, regather, thrive and reproduce.

    The glorious last trumpet of I Cor. 15:52, when the Church is Raptured, had to have taken place at some point earlier. If not, then it would be impossible to find any mortals left to repopulate the millennial earth; everyone would have been immortalized or destroyed when Christ returned at Armageddon.

    Revelation 11:15 & 12:10 reveal that the trumpet blast of Rev. 10:;7 declares the end of Satan’s position of authority over the earth from his previous position in the heavens, not the Rapture of the Church.

    In conclusion, the Scriptures offer no support in any manner to the teaching that the trumpets of the 7th “Angel” in Rev. 10:7 is the same as the trumpet of “God” blown at the Rapture in I Thess. 4 & I Cor. 15.

    It is straight forwardly presented as the last of 7 angelic trumpets blown in a sequence as God releases His wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world. Scripture reveals there have been and will be other heavenly trumpet blasts to signal the end (or beginning) of other eventful occasions. The term “last trumpet” in no way means the sound of a trumpet will never be heard again.

    The only question which remains critical at this point is, are you ready for the Last Trump which will signal the close of the Church Age and the glorification and gathering together of the body of Christ?

    Be sure right now by putting your faith in the Living Lord Jesus Christ who paid the full penalty for the sins of the world by shedding His own precious blood on the cross.

    Trust in Him alone for your salvation can assure your receipt of His blessed atonement, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord” (I Thess. 4:16-17).

  • moscowbob

    Hello Deborah,

    DTW:
    Hmmmmm ok. Do you believe in Salvation?

    Are you being sarcastic, or are you suggesting that unless I believe in a “fly away” theory, I am not saved?

    DTW:
    Where will you be during the tribulation?

    I do not know, maybe dead. Otherwise, relying on the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, to be faithfull to the end, not fearing those who can only destroy the body, contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.

    DTW:
    You can’t just knock those verses off the table and file them under ‘not of God’ when those are GOD’s Word.

    But I can test the spirits, prove all things. The parable of the “Wheat and the Tares” gives a very clear, specific and concise explanation of the end times. And according to Jesus, all Christians stays put and the WICKED are removed.

    I cannot read every occasion of saint, cloud, trump, air etc and get excited about “secretly flying away” when Jesus said the servant is not greater than the master, if they persecuted Him, so will they persecute us – When did we become so special?

    Kind regards and peace to you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    moscowbob

    I am never sarcastic about salvation. You can believe whatever you want on pre-trib or post-trib it makes no difference. You stated in the very beginning that “I am not so learned in the Word.” and now state that you “can’t read every occasion of ‘saint, cloud, trump, air, etc” and actually come to a conclusion using the intelligence and logic that God gave you to process information, nevermind the time and enegry to find yourself approved.

    And of course you test. Never said you must not. But based on your comments, your version of ‘testing’ has a lot of holes in it. You have to look at everything, every verse and the history behind those verses to understand it. As for the verse of the wheat and the tares, that has nothing to do with the end times, but now, Jesus came to save and he came to judge, he came to separate the wheat from the tares.

    Anyhow, just carry on testing….your way.

  • moscowbob

    Hello Deborah

    I am never sarcastic about salvation.
    ==>Please check your words

    You can believe whatever you want on pre-trib or post-trib it makes no difference.
    ==> If it makes no difference what is the point, does it glorify Christ ? I believe in no-trib

    You stated in the very beginning that “I am not so learned in the Word.”
    ==> Correct, I have no formal education in theology

    and now state that you “can’t read every occasion of ’saint, cloud, trump, air, etc” and actually come to a conclusion using the intelligence and logic that God gave you to process information,
    ==>Once again the condecending, arrogant, sarcastic assumption that I am too stupid to see the “truth” of the “fly away” theory

    nevermind the time and enegry to find yourself approved.
    ==> This is not sarcasm, this is an accusation that I am lazy and unapproved

    And of course you test.
    ==> Thank you this is what I am doing.

    Never said you must not.
    ==> Never accused you of making such a statement

    But based on your comments, your version of ‘testing’ has a lot of holes in it.
    ==>Once again the arrogant, sarcastic punctuation

    You have to look at everything, every verse and the history behind those verses to understand it.
    ==>That is good advice, based on this why did Paul describe the falling away, man of sin, tribulation – why did he not simply state as you would – “People, dont be stupid the end is not here because we are still here”

    As for the verse of the wheat and the tares, that has nothing to do with the end times, but now, Jesus came to save and he came to judge, he came to separate the wheat from the tares.

    DTW:
    “But based on your comments, your version of ‘testing’ has a lot of holes in it.”

    Test 1: Jesus came to judge the world – FAILED
    Joh 12:47
    (47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    Test 2: Wheat and tares have nothing to do with end times – FAILED
    Mat 13:39
    (39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

    Test 3: Jesus came to seperate the wheat from the tares – FAILED
    Mat 13:41
    (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    Anyhow, just carry on testing….your way.
    ==> It seems to have proved you as either a liar or just as unlearned and unapproved as myself. Your superior way of testing seems to have failed you.

    Kind regards and peace to you.

  • moscowbob

    Hello Cecilia,

    from this I believe most would have understood that you really understand the rapture or at least ‘know’ about the rapture?
    ==> Correct, I have just not been convinced(deceived??) yet.

    Then here in your post on the 11th you say you are not ready to subscribe to such a doc(t)rine as yet? and remark you’ll put it in cate(g)ory “not from God”?
    ==>Correct, there are major factors that leads me to reject this
    1: The historic evidence of the origin of this is suspect.
    2: It causes major division in the Body Of Christ
    3: There is no glory for Jesus in this theory.
    4: It does not prepare the Christian for suffering which builds faith.

    ok, I’ll just answer this in shorthand for you:
    Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, no other subscription necessary => eternal life => rapture, at whatever stage of history.
    ==> I shall return the favour – Salvation => eternal life => Stand till the end

    James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lords’ coming is near!
    ==>Mat 24:4
    (4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    thanks Deborah! I think you’ve posted a VERY thorough explanation about the rapture, seen from all sides!
    ==> I disagree, it will show all sides if and only if Deborah presents this to include no rapture. I would like to suggest that Deborah(since she shows an aptitude for research), do a rebuttal of her own case. If this is done with no bias and pre-conception of rapture theory, will make for an excellent read.

    Kind regards and peace to you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    moscowbob

    Yes my apologies I was wrong on the wheat and the tares, well not really because the wheat and the tears is for the very end and it’s for JERUSALEM and you are not a Jew. So it’s FOR NOW on what is happening in the church and it’s for the END TIMES but for Israel only.

    For Jesus right now judges and separates the wheat from the tares, the church has been infiltrated with fake ‘wheat’ among real wheat. Just as it was happening at the time Jesus walked the earth. The final separation is for the last days that is for those who are left during the tribulation, when Israel is under attack.

    Matt 13:24-30
    Tares among Wheat

    24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “(A)The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
    25″But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed [a]tares among the wheat, and went away.
    26″But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
    27″The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
    28″And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
    29″But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
    30’Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but (B)gather the wheat into my barn.”

    Matt 13:36-45
    Tares explained

    36Then He left the crowds and went into (J)the house And His disciples came to Him and said, “(K)Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
    37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is (L)the Son of Man,
    38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are (M)the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are (N)the sons of (O)the evil one;
    39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is (P)the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
    40″So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at (Q)the end of the age.
    41″(R)The Son of Man (S)will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all (T)stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
    42and (U)will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place (V)there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    43″(W)Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father (X)He who has ears, let him hear.

    Your blatant nastiness is getting out of control. You came here not to discuss, but to find fault with me. You are getting nasty and the ‘peace to you’ at the end of your comments does not cancel out whatever your plan is.

    So move along. You have made up your mind long ago what you believe. I don’t care what you believe. And I am not going to entertain your little games either.

  • cecilia

    silence…..

    >>>Deborah, March 12th “Jesus came to save and he came to judge”
    so she touches that Jesus came to save, but in the end (which is connected to the topic discussion, He’ll judge.

    >>>> moscowbob, March 13th “Test 1: Jesus came to judge the world – FAILED
    Joh 12:47
    (47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

    My conclusion: you read what you want/like and form your opinion there-upon. YOU failed!

    Ps 96: …then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice 13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
    read also Rev.18:11; 1Pe.4:1-4; 2Tim.4:1; Jhn.8:16 and more.

    Revelation 22:19
    I’m NOT stating this Word for you to comment back. You’ve said enough – your own words should be enough food for thought to yourself… you don’t really need anyone to argue this out against because you already had a set viewpoint from the beginning.

  • moscowbob

    Hello Cecilia and Deborah,

    Before I move along as requested, I wish to state a few points if I may.

    Cecilia:
    How did you read the response from Deborah(below) to me and conclude that she meant the end times?

    (DTW)
    “As for the verse of the wheat and the tares, that has nothing to do with the end times, but now, Jesus came to save and he came to judge, he came to separate the wheat from the tares.”

    Did you read the part where she states “..has nothing to do with the end times, BUT NOW” ?

    Did you read the part where she states “Jesus CAME to save and he CAME to judge..” ?

    Aso, the verses you supplied in defense of Deborah’s statement, all refer to the future judgment by Christ. So you see I did not read what I want/like, but what as written and based on that, I funished my responses.

    Deborah:
    I apologise if you have been offended in any manner by my responses, that was not my intention. However, I furnished my replies based on the words, sentences and thoughts in your posts – I clarified back to you what I read in your replies and you took that as a peronal attack.

    I also sensed some anger, agitation and impatience towards anybody that does not agree with these rapture theories.

    Since you have taken the responsibility to teach the Word and expose false prophets and doctrines, you should make sure that you do not create a stumbling block for new Christians or those not so proficient in the Word – essentially, you are a role model for all who visit your website.

    I think you are doing a great service to all who read here and it does not come at no cost. But I would like to urge you to take up my request in prayer – Please do an objective study of the rapture theories, including the Jesuit connection and Margaret McDonald, do a rebuttal of your current conclusions.

    Present a case of no rapture(except, all will be changed when Christ returns), this way your site will present a fully unbiased view of false prophets and false doctrines and you will not cause people to stumble through confusion and you will not have to defend theories that, as you replied to me ” does not matter what you believe.”

    In conclusion, you should care what people believe, is that not the whole purpose of your website?

    As for me, no, I am not playing games but care very much what you teach.

    Kind regards

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    moscowbob

    Ditto

  • cecilia

    my mistake MoscowB!

    a remark (you’re more than welcome to respond): the words you chose in your last comment and the way it is put together, doesn’t sound like someone who is “not so learned in the Word” 11 March. You ‘sound’ very much ‘learned’ to me – a pastor perhaps?.

    also,
    From http://www.discerningtheworld.com/about-this-blog-rules/

    12. Discerning The World is a A Genuine Christian website for Genuine Christians. We are here to defend the Christian faith, stand up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not ashamed.

    We do our best to write articles in a very self explanatory manner for all to understand and will always give credit to the original author of the article we reference. The entire point of this website is to give credit to the others material – because we are EXPOSING false teachers and their teachings.

    so she ‘cares’ what other people believe, but
    # Jesus Christ the Son of God commands us to test everything that is said to His Word. The Holy Spirit abides in born again Christians as your counselor and comforter and will always lead genuine Christians into all truth, understanding and remembrance of Jesus Christ when studying the Word of God.
    # There is only ONE truth. You can’t agree to disagree with the Bible – ever!
    # We will NEVER tell anyone to listen to what we have to say, and will always request you consult the Bible for yourself. This is why we have the Word of God at our disposal, so we don’t have to take another’s word for it – but can read God’s Word for ourselves.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    C

    Ditto :)

  • moscowbob

    Hello Cecilia,

    Thank you for the compliment but I am not formally educated in theology and I am not a pastor either – I do however read a lot and I have a good electronic Bible.

    I understand and respect from which position this website is presented. But while contemplating my response to Deborah and praying about it, it became clear to me how teaching the Word and subscribing to a controvertial subject, puts her credibility in jeopardy and could lead to conflicting situations.

    Because of the below, I urged Deborah to do a study of the gathering together as in the traditional/orthodox understanding and post it on the site.

    Act 8:30-31
    (30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
    (31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

    1Co 8:11-12
    (11) And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
    (12) But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

    Please, this is not criticism or accusation – but you are teaching/guiding on this site and could be held accountable.

    Good luck with the site

    Kind regards :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    moscowbob

    >> I understand and respect from which position this website is presented. But while contemplating my response to Deborah and praying about it, it became clear to me how teaching the Word and subscribing to a controvertial subject, puts her credibility in jeopardy and could lead to conflicting situations.

    Get over your it. We are talking about a subject that has been debated for years. Now you want to hold me accountable because you wont agree with me, or I with you??? Ah, it’s I with you, thats the problem.

    Anyhow. Enough is enough.

  • cecilia

    MoscowB, yes I see it clearly. This is the second time you want to tell DTW what article to do, why and when. So why not open your own blog… then you can do the research, post articles etc. and handle all the negative comments that comes with this task?
    You say Yes you see and understand, but you DON’T see nor do you understand.. YOU want to point the way… and sorry to say so, here is not the place to do that.

  • Jenn

    For dessert we should all visit Google and type in “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
    Jenn

  • Peter

    DELETED

    Peter, you are welcome to make comments. However, we only except the Bible as authoritative. Extra-Biblical revelation to support a position will not be posted. Admin.

  • Drew

    Hi Deborah,

    thanks for the great work on the website. I have a question maybe you can help with in your time studying this much debated subject.

    We know in the rapture those who are in Christ who have died will be raised and then those that are alive and remain will follow right after. We know this to be a physical body resurrection for those who are in Jesus. My question is, when do the believers in Revelation 20:4 get resurrected? When are those people who become believers during the tribulation and who loose their lives, when are these believers resurrected? Is there a second resurrection at Jesus 2nd coming at the end of the tribulation.

    Thank you for your help. I have asked many other people through the years about this and have never received any type of a good biblical answer about it.

    God Bless,

    Drew

  • cecilia

    Drew, I could find this:

    Question: “What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection?”

    Answer: Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.

    Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

    The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

    Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

    The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

    What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).
    http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

    the same view is displayed by:
    http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-resurrection-of-tribulation-saints/

  • Elmarie A

    Drew

    My question is, when do the believers in Revelation 20:4 get resurrected?

    I hope this also helps you let us know please :-) I know this is a long read but it helped me to understand beter.

    The Millennium

    Prof. Johan Malan, University of the North, South Africa

    Abstract: The biblical teaching on the thousand-year reign of Christ after His second coming.

    Scripture quotations are from the King James Version of the Holy Bible except where otherwise indicated. Only very archaic terms have been substituted, between brackets, with correlating terms from the New King James Version (NKJV). All pronouns referring to the Godhead are capitalised. Edited by Bernard and Kathleen Reeves of London.
    Dispensations in the Bible

    The Bible clearly teaches a future, one thousand year reign of Christ from the restored throne of David in Jerusalem. This coming dispensation is referred to as the Millennium. It will be the sixth dispensation in the divine history of humanity, to be followed by eternity in the completely new heaven and new earth, which will be created after the Millennium.

    The divine history of humanity is ordered within the framework of seven dispensations. It commences with the creation of Adam and Eve in Eden and culminates in the new heaven and new earth where an eternal, perfect existence will prevail. The seven dispensations are:

    1. The dispensation of innocence in Eden.

    2. The dispensation of the conscience after the Fall.

    3. The dispensation of the law in the Old Testament.

    4. The dispensation of grace in the church age.

    5. The dispensation of the Antichrist’s reign.

    6. The dispensation of Christ’s millennial kingdom.

    7. The dispensation of perfection in eternity.

    The beginning and end of a dispensation are always marked by dramatic events associated with the unfolding of a new aspect of God’s plan for the ages. They are also accompanied by intensified demonic activities as Satan then tries everything in his power to disrupt God’s plan. The main characteristics of the seven dispensations are as follows:

    1. The dispensation of innocence

    The very first dispensation in which Adam and Eve found themselves was that of innocence in Eden. God had forbidden them to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and warned that they would surely die should they eat of its fruit (Gen. 2:17). They were innocent, as they had no knowledge of good and evil and were not ashamed of their nakedness (Gen. 2:25). With great cunning Satan deceived Adam and Eve into rebelling against God by disobeying Him. They foolishly heeded Satan’s advice and yielded to his evil influence, thus becoming sinners. Spiritual death immediately set in, while they also physically became mortal. The dispensation of innocence ended with the Fall, which was the result of Satan’s deception.

    2. The dispensation of the conscience

    For a long time after the Fall humanity had no law and could only distinguish between good and evil by way of the voice of conscience. Various people pursued righteousness in accordance with their inner convictions and whatever personal revelations God gave them. Some of them, like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph became preachers of righteousness. At times during this dispensation evil was so intense and pervasive that God’s anger was kindled against humankind. During the Flood all but eight people were destroyed. Through the calling of Abraham, God started to prepare a special people of His own, the nation of Israel, to live in accordance with His laws.

    At the end of the dispensation of the conscience, when Israel were about to receive the law of God and move into a new dispensation, Satan launched an incredible attack against them from the kingdom of darkness. He employed all his powers of deception to avert the next unfolding of God’s divine plan for humanity. While Moses was with God on Mt. Sinai to receive the law, Israel were deceived into rebelling against Him by practising idolatry, thereby rendering them unfit to receive His law. God said He would destroy them, but Moses interceded for them. He was so shocked at the sight of the golden calf that he broke the tablets on which the law was written, but God graciously wrote them again.

    3. The dispensation of the law

    With the introduction of the dispensation of the law a much clearer distinction was made between good and evil. Not only in the Ten Commandments, but through a great number of other laws and decrees, God defined righteousness and sin. Satan concentrated on Israel to induce them to sin, in an effort to subvert and nullify their calling as a special people of God. His efforts were greatly intensified when the time came for the Messiah to be born. Satan must have been extremely infuriated with the announcement from heaven that the Messiah’s Name would be Jesus and that He would save His people from their sins (Mt. 1:21). Satan then took possession of Herod and incited him to massacre all male children under the age of two years in an effort to destroy Jesus. When this evil plan failed Satan then tried to tempt Jesus to sin in the wilderness and afterwards relentlessly attacked Him through the hostile leaders of Israel. He wanted to eliminate Jesus and obliterate the gospel of the kingdom of God. But the devil’s plans backfired on himself because, through His death, Jesus destroyed “him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb. 2:14 NKJV). God’s divine plan proceeded unaltered.

    4. The dispensation of the church

    With the outpouring of the Holy Spirit the church age was ushered in. The Holy Spirit was given to guide people into all truth, to convict them of sin and righteousness, to regenerate them, and also to endue them with power from on high to serve Christ in a spiritually dark world. The knowledge of good and evil was increased through spiritual discernment (we have enlightened eyes of the mind), but still not to its fullest extent: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part” (1 Cor. 13:9). Despite Christians now having a strong weapon against Satan, his efforts to thwart God’s plan intensified as, for many centuries, he has conducted an all-out war against Christ’s church using Roman emperors, the medieval Roman Catholic Church and, later, secular humanism, communism, the interfaith and new age movements, in an attempt to destroy it – which has also failed.

    We are at the very end of the church dispensation and it is once again a time of increased demonic activity with a great falling away in many churches: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils” (1 Tim. 4:1). Satan intends to pervert the church of Christ, tries to prevent the virgins getting oil (type of the Holy Spirit) in their lamps and lulls them to sleep before the Bridegroom comes at midnight (Mt. 25:1-13). By establishing a false church (an ecumenical alliance of degenerate Protestant, Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches with the non-Christian religions), and the promotion of a culture of sin (i.e. amorality of all kinds, e.g. promiscuity, homosexuality, abortion and crime) a climate is created which is conducive to the advent, acceptance and worship of the Antichrist as universal messiah and “man of sin” (2 Thes. 2:3).

    5. The dispensation of the Antichrist’s reign

    When the one who withholds – i.e. the Holy Spirit indwelling the true Church – has been taken out of the way during the rapture, the Antichrist will be revealed (2 Thes. 2:6-12). Strong delusion will prevail on earth and the masses will blindly believe the lies of the Antichrist. Evil will develop to its fullest extent and there will be no limits to blasphemous and sinful conduct. The second half of the Antichrist’s reign of seven years will be a time of unprecedented demonic activity: “Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time” (Rev. 12:12 NKJV). Towards the end of the seven years of tribulation the Antichrist and the false prophet will, under the instigation of Satan (Rev. 16:13-14), muster a great multinational force to fight against Christ when He descends to Jerusalem to defend and rescue Israel at His Second Coming. This battle will not be a long one as the Antichrist and the false prophet will be captured and cast alive into the lake of fire. The devil will be chained and confined to a bottomless pit for one thousand years (Rev. 19:19–20:3).

    6. The dispensation of the millennial kingdom

    During the Millennium the glorified believers will rule with Christ. They will have perfect, immortal bodies, perfect joy and perfect knowledge. But the end of this dispensation will also be characterised by tremendous demonic activity. Satan will be let out of prison to make a last desperate attempt to thwart the completion of God’s master plan. He will then act as a catalyst to the rebellious, unsaved people (and there will be many) living during the Millennium, whom he will deceive into joining him in his final battle against the kingdom of light. This vain effort will lead to the final doom of Satan, his hordes and all unsaved people of all dispensations on the Day of Judgement (Rev. 20:7-15).

    7. The dispensation of eternity

    This dispensation will be endless. In the new heaven and on the new earth “there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of life” (Rev. 21: 27 NKJV). The lake of fire where Satan, his demons and all lost people will be confined, will also exist for all eternity.

    Methods of interpretation

    The prevailing confusion among many Christians about biblical dispensations results from using wrong methods of interpreting Scripture, which often do not recognise the true meaning of the prophetic word. By so doing, they relegate many of the clear pronouncements about the future to the status of mere symbols and abstract concepts with no literal meaning, so spiritualising literal prophecies.

    The thousand-year reign of peace that will, according to Revelation 20, be inaugurated after the Second Coming of Christ is, despite the evidence that has been cited, still a subject of great controversy. In terms of their divergent views, Christians are grouped into different doctrinal schools. Those who interpret the book of Revelation in a literal, dispensational way, are called millennialists. This term is derived from the Latin word for thousand which is mille. It refers to Christians who believe that there will be a literal thousand-year reign of peace on earth after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. A synonym for the term millennialist is chiliast, which is derived from the Greek word for a thousand, chilios. People who do not believe in a literal thousand-year reign are called amillennialists or antichiliasts. They are also inclined to change the meanings of many other biblical statements and concepts by spiritualising what is clearly meant to be taken literally.

    Because of these controversies a number of different principles of exegesis (interpretation) are applied in regard to the book of Revelation. Some of them deviate so far from the basic meaning of the text that it seriously compromises the divine inspiration of the book. The following are the four most common ways of interpreting the book:

    1. Historic Premillennialism (AD 33 – 400)

    Until about the end of the 4th century, this was virtually the only view of end-time events. It held that a literal Antichrist would emerge in the end-time and that the church would go through the tribulation period. This would end with Christ’s Second Coming to raise believers who have died and catch them up with living believers, in glorified bodies, to meet Him in the air. He then immediately returns to earth with them to rescue the remnant of Israel who receive Him as their Messiah, destroy the Antichrist and his armies and establish His kingdom to rule from Jerusalem for 1 000 years. All but one church father who wrote on prophecy held this premillennial view; indeed Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) even stated that to teach otherwise was heretical!

    2. Amillennialism (AD 400 to date)

    This is the practice of extensive spiritualisation of biblical statements using a method of interpretation devised by the Alexandrian school of theology, led by Origen, in the third to fourth centuries. It regarded the entire Bible as an allegory to be interpreted non-literally, but Augustine (AD 354-430) restricted this method to the end-time prophecies only, Revelation being interpreted as a chronicle of the spiritual conflict between God and Satan during the present church age. A current liberal variation of this view considers Revelation as merely a symbolic representation of the concept of God’s ultimate victory over Satan, evil and human sin.

    Amillennialists do not believe in a literal Millennium but spiritualise biblical statements, deny their literal meanings and replace them with other meanings. This is also called replacement theology in terms of which Israel can be taken to mean the church (a claim made by many churches), Jerusalem can become anyone’s home-town, Babylon can be applied to America or Rome, the 144 000 saved Jews of the tribulation can be applied to the millions of Christians of all ages, while the thousand-year reign of Christ, with the seven-year tribulation period, is equated with the entire church dispensation of almost two thousand years. In this way, vital Scriptural truths are often argued away to fit in with amillennialist concepts.

    3. Postmillennialism (mid AD 1600’s to date)

    According to this school, the world will progressively become a better place through Christianisation, thereby ushering in the Millennium of the church age. At the end of this ‘golden age’ of the Christianised world, Christ will return for the final judgement, thus closing world history. According to postmillennialists there will be no 1000-year reign of Christ on earth as King of kings, with Jerusalem as His world capital.

    4. Modern dispensational premillennialism (early AD 1800’s to date)

    J.N. Darby (born London, 1800), an eminent British theologian, is credited with re-establishing dispensationalism in the church. In When the Trumpet Sounds (pp. 127-8), Prof. Floyd Elmore of Ohio, USA, says that John Darby had the greatest influence on the study of biblical prophecy during the last 150 years, and was a choice servant whom God used to make a profound impact upon the church’s understanding of biblical prophecy. He adds: “Darby is the acknowledged father of systematised dispensationalism and a key modern developer of the pretribulational rapture.”

    This approach is followed by conservative scholars who hold that, except for the first three chapters, Revelation describes future events. Chapters 4-18 deal with the events of the last seven years preceding Christ’s Second Coming and particularly emphasise the great tribulation of the last 3½ years prior to it. Subsequent to that momentous event, Satan will be bound and the 1000-year millennial reign of Christ will be established upon earth.

    Since Christ returns before the Millennium, this view of prophecy is termed “premillennialism.” Clearly, we are not now in the Millennium and Satan is, quite evidently, not yet confined to a sealed pit – not even in a symbolic sense! Premillennialism honours the literal meaning of Scripture, except when the context clearly shows that a particular concept must be interpreted symbolically. An example of symbolism is the red dragon with seven heads, which the Bible itself identifies as the Devil. But when Scripture speaks of Israel, the great tribulation, the Antichrist, the false prophet, the battle of Armageddon, and the binding and incarceration of Satan after the Second Coming, there is no justification whatsoever for trying to explain away their obviously literal meanings by allegorising or spiritualising them. The golden rule is: When the plain sense of the word makes common sense, then seek no other sense.
    Evaluation of the various millennial views

    To amillennialists and postmillennialists the prophetic message of Revelation has largely lost its literal meaning and relevance due to spiritualising it. Its chronology is disregarded, as Christ’s reign of 1000 years in chapter 20 is viewed as symbolic of the entire church age of about 2000 years between His first and second coming! During this period Satan is bound, but his influence is limited so he cannot stop the spread of the gospel or eliminate the church.

    To amillennialists the Millennium is Christ reigning in heaven with glorified deceased believers during the church age. But to most postmillennialists the spread of the gospel will Christianise the whole world, and the Millennium is the resulting golden age of righteousness and peace on earth with Christ reigning from heaven. Amillennialists say the Millennium coincides with continuous tribulation during the church age, that it intensified for Jews in AD 70-145, and will greatly intensify prior to the return of Christ. To postmillennialists the tribulation of Matthew 24 and the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2 are already past, so Revelation is largely irrelevant to our generation.

    Neither amillennialists nor postmillennialists believe in the physical or spiritual restoration of Israel as a nation in accordance with Old and New Testament prophecies since they allege the church has replaced Israel, but Jews can be saved by becoming Christians. The significance of important signs of the times, such as Israel’s partial re-gathering in its ancient, promised land, Jerusalem no longer being trampled by the Gentiles, trends towards a globalised, cashless monetary system, a one-world government and a multi-faith, one-world religious body as precursors for the Antichrist’s bid for global political and religious power are played down. As a result even otherwise sound, exemplary Christians fail to recognise these signs and, lacking a biblical perspective on the unfolding fulfilment of end-time prophecy, they follow only a secular assessment of current events. So, their expectation of Christ’s imminent return as the heavenly Bridegroom and their spiritual vision of Him as “the bright and morning star” (Rev. 22:16) is often dimmed or lacking.

    The premillennialist view places strong emphasis on the reliability of the inspired Scriptures as revealing God’s plan for the future of the world. Christians who hold this view interpret world affairs in the light of prophetic Scriptures, and seek to have spiritual discernment to understand the signs of the times in the unfolding of current events. They avoid the complacency resulting from assuming that the devil is either partly or fully bound, or the disillusionment that will inevitably follow the pursuit of the unrealistic view that they can succeed in Christianising the world before Christ’s coming, or that Christ’s coming to judge the nations is only a far distant event. Instead, they see themselves as strangers and pilgrims in a world that “lies under the sway of the wicked one” (1 Jn. 5:19 NKJV), and therefore expect the struggle between the powers of light and darkness to intensify as Christ’s imminent coming draws ever nearer.

    Premillennialists are aware of the extreme solemnity of the times in which they live and convinced that the church age is rapidly drawing to a close, so opportunities to fulfil the Great Commission are running out. This knowledge, and the awareness that the awesome events and judgements of the tribulation are imminent, gives real urgency and zeal to their evangelism, as they warn others of “the wrath to come” and the need to repent and believe the Gospel. They also seek to be ready to meet the Lord, the heavenly Bridegroom, when He comes to take them to His Father’s house, by seeking to live by biblical standards of holiness and by total commitment to serving Him faithfully.
    Views of the church fathers

    To confirm that the Millennium is not merely symbolic, but a literal period of future history, it may be helpful to establish what John the Apostle taught about the Revelation during his ministry in Asia Minor after his release from Patmos. The writings of various early church fathers who were his students throw light on this subject and confirm that it was often discussed. The following are statements made by some of them on the Millennium and related matters:

    Papias, the bishop of Smyrna, was a student of John and learned firsthand about the author’s own interpretation of the book of Revelation. The teaching of this church father is very important as he is the link between the millennialist view and the apostles. Papias taught that after the resurrection of the dead there will be a reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years when He will personally sit on the throne. The earth will experience a time of unprecedented fertility and there will be great prosperity under Christ’s beneficent rule with His saints. Early in the second century, Justin Martyr wrote: “A certain man among us, whose name is John, one of the apostles of Jesus, prophesied in a revelation that he had that those who believe in our Lord Jesus Christ will be in Jerusalem for a thousand years.”

    Another church father, Polycarp, who was one of the youngest students of the apostle John, was a very devoted Christian who also died as a martyr. On the authority of John he taught that the earth will be very fertile during the Millennium and yield abundant crops. Another view of significance is that of Irenaeus who was a student of Polycarp. He said that the reward of the just would be that they will be resurrected from among the dead when the world is renewed and made fertile. His view was that each of the six days of creation indicates a thousand year period, and that after six thousand years of world history have expired it would be followed by the seventh day, which would also be a thousand years.

    This last-mentioned view was entertained by various church fathers, among them Cyprian, Barnabas and Lactantius. In this regard, the Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia says that the general view of the fathers was that the Lord will appear at the end of the sixth millennium to establish His kingdom on earth. The general view was that this kingdom, which correlates with the Sabbath of Creation, will continue for one thousand years.
    Persistence of the allegorical interpretation

    Despite the clear testimonies of the apostle John, the early church fathers and the Bible’s own, very obvious message, the allegorical interpretation of biblical prophecies has permeated virtually the entire church. Theologians have deprived churches of the literal message of the Bible by wrongly interpreting it. Hamilton, an amillennialist himself, admits this problem in his book, The Basis of Millennial Faith: “Now we must frankly admit that a literal interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies gives us just such a picture of an earthly reign of the Messiah as the premillennialists picture.” The critical question is not whether the Bible teaches such an earthly kingdom – because it clearly does – but how the relevant prophecies should be interpreted.

    McDonald (Dictionary of the Christian Church) defines an allegory as follows: “The use of language to convey a deeper and a different meaning from that which appears on the surface.” An allegorical interpretation must be clearly distinguished from a symbolic interpretation. The Bible often makes use of symbolic language, including in prophecy. A symbol always has a literal anti-type as it is used to explain something about a specific person or event. From the way in which it is used, it is clear that a symbol means something else. Examples of symbols to describe certain characteristics of Christ are the lamb, the lion, the light of the world, the bright and morning star, the true vine, etc.

    In cases of allegorical interpretation, the relevant Scripture has a clear and obvious meaning, but for ulterior reasons the reader feels he must read something else into it, thereby assigning a figurative meaning to the Scripture. The allegorical interpretation, therefore, does not subject itself to the authority of the Bible by deriving its meaning from it, but approaches Scripture with a preconceived idea by reading that meaning into the Bible.

    Angus & Green (The Bible Handbook) also refer to this danger when they say: “There is an unlimited scope for fancy, if once the principle be admitted, and the only basis of the exposition is found in the mind of the expositor. The scheme can yield no interpretation, properly so called, although possibly some valuable truths may be illustrated.”

    Bernard Ramm (Protestant Biblical Interpretation) adds to this caution: “To state that the principal meaning of the Bible is a second-sense meaning, and that the principal method of interpretation is spiritualising, is to open the door to almost uncontrolled speculation and imagination. For this reason we have insisted that the control in interpretation is the literal method.”

    O.T. Allis, who himself spiritualises the Bible, is keenly aware of the negative results that it may yield when he says: “Whether the figurative or spiritual interpretation of a given passage is justified or not, depends solely on whether it gives the true meaning. If it is used to empty words of their plain and obvious meaning, to read out of them what is clearly intended by them, the allegorising or spiritualising is a term of reproach which is well merited.”

    One of the great proponents of allegorical interpretation was Origen (AD 185-254). He was strongly influenced by the Greek philosophy of Plato and tried to synthesise the Bible with abstract philosophical thinking. He identified the following three levels of Bible interpretation: (1) The somatic or literal interpretation, which is sufficient for the simple-minded. (2) The psychological or moral interpretation for the more advanced. (3) The pneumatic or allegorical interpretation for those who have wisdom. Such people should be able to find their way through all the symbols and ascend to the level of the mysterious. It is not difficult to see how this approach paved the way for various kinds of deception and metaphysical speculation. For example, Origen taught that “in the end not only will all human beings be saved but even the devil and his demons” (A.A. Hoekema: The Bible and the Future). It is obvious why he did not believe in a literal kingdom on earth and became the founder of allegorical exegesis and amillennial thinking. Like Augustine almost two centuries later, he regarded the church age as the dispensation of the kingdom.

    Augustine (AD 354 to 430) perpetuated the serious exegetical and amillennial errors of Origen in his Confessiones and his book on the kingdom of God – De Civitate Dei. He also studied and accepted neo-Platonist thought. Augustine has the doubtful honour of having been highly regarded by prominent reformers such as Calvin and Luther, while also being venerated as the most eminent Christian scholar by the Vatican. The latter celebrates a feast to his honour on 28th August every year!

    The modern church is still profoundly influenced by the heathen (Platonist) philosophy of the inter-testamental period and also by its similarly mistaken interpretational methods of spiritualising and allegorising the Bible.
    The literal method of interpretation

    Fortunately, there is a growing group of evangelical scholars in modern times who are reverting to sound principles of interpreting the inspired and inerrant Word of God. Dwight Pentecost (Things to Come) gives the following definition of the literal method of interpretation: “The literal method of interpretation is that method that gives to each word the same basic meaning it would have in normal ordinary customary usage, whether employed in writing, speaking or thinking. It is called the grammatical-historical method to emphasise the fact that the meaning is to be determined by both grammatical and historical considerations.”

    The strongest proof of the literal interpretation is the way in which the New Testament makes use of the Old Testament. Good examples are the many prophecies about the birth, life, work, death and resurrection of Christ that were all literally fulfilled in the New Testament.

    Despite this overwhelming evidence about Jesus as the promised Messiah, the Pharisees and scribes decided to suppress the truth and lie to the people. Why did they do that? Hal Lindsey says that any person who does not realise that his most important problem is an inward, spiritual problem, prefers a political above a spiritual saviour.

    It is still the same today. Many churches openly disregard the Bible’s literal message and engage in an ecumenical process of uniting church to society – inadvertently preparing for the world’s false political ‘saviour’, the Antichrist. The spiritualisation of biblical prophecies is clearly a trick by Satan to prevent people from being aware that the return to earth of the great spiritual Saviour of the world, Jesus Christ (Jn. 4:42), to defeat God’s enemies, save the remnant of Israel and establish His millennial reign is now imminent!

    At Christ’s first coming most Jews, especially the hierarchy, ignored the many prophecies about Him, so failed to recognise their true Messiah. Israel paid dearly for their neglect of prophecy: “For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation” (Lk. 19:43-44 NKJV). Christ’s prophecies have and will all come true – literally!

    A similar situation prevails concerning His Second Coming. Literal prophecies of His coming are either ignored or wrongly interpreted, thus depriving Christians of their proper future expectation – often leading to some focusing attention on political and social ideals. Jesus Himself said it will be as in the days of Noah and Lot. Those not truly born again will pay a very heavy price in tribulation and divine wrath by being left behind to endure the Antichrist’s reign of terror after Christ comes to take away the saints at the rapture.

    To those who remain true to the Lord Jesus and expect His coming imminently, there is the real hope of returning to this troubled world with Christ when He establishes His millennial reign on earth after the tribulation period.
    Prophecies about the Millennium

    In Revelation 20 there are various references to the one thousand-year reign of Christ when Satan will be bound: “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison…” (Rev. 20:1-7).

    When the Lord Jesus comes back to earth it will be as “King of kings, and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:16). He will set up His one-world government with Jerusalem as capital: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever” (Rev. 11:15).

    In a major end-time prophecy Daniel likened Christ’s Second Coming to the effect of a great stone smiting the kingdoms of the world, pulverising them to chaff carried on the wind, then becoming a great mountain filling the whole earth, replacing them with His kingdom (Dan. 2:34-35; 44-45), so “the Lord shall be King over all the earth” (Zech. 14:9). This is similar to the prophecy about the Lord Jesus reigning as King, which was given to Mary before His birth: “And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a Son, and shalt call His name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David” (Lk. 1:31-32).

    The throne of David is not in heaven but on earth. Jesus does not now reign in a literal sense from the throne of David as this throne has, since the Babylonian captivity, been temporarily in suspension. Christ will restore this throne at His Second Coming and then reign from it: “After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does all these things” (Acts 15:16-17 NKJV).

    The elders in heaven (representing redeemed Jews and Gentiles) are aware they will return with Christ and reign with Him in His earthly kingdom, since they explicitly sing: “Thou… wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (Rev. 5:9-10; cf. 2 Tim. 2:12).

    It is therefore clearly evident that the events of Revelation coincide with a strong proclamation of the Kingship of Jesus Christ: “Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down… he knoweth that he hath but a short time” (Rev. 12:10,12).

    When Jesus, our High Priest who now intercedes for us at the throne of the Father, returns to earth, the power and influence of Satan here will be broken and the kingdom of Christ established. The devil will then no longer be the ruler and god of this present evil world (Jn. 14:30; 2 Cor. 4:4; Gal. 1:4; 1 Jn. 5:19), but Christ as “king shall reign in righteousness” as “Ruler in Israel”, and “have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth” (Is. 32:1; Mic. 5:2; Ps. 72:8).

    A further proof that the millennial reign is not in heaven is that in this dispensation there will still be inherent carnality and disorderliness among the nations, which will necessitate that they be ruled with a strong hand. Although Satan will be bound and prohibited from deceiving the nations into committing rebellious deeds, they will still have fallen natures that need to be disciplined. In Revelation 12:5 and 19:15 it is plainly stated that Christ will rule the nations “with a rod of iron.” His faithful servants will also share in this rule: “But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father” (Rev. 2:25-27).

    The Lord (Yahweh) declares in Psalm 2:6: “Yet have I set My King upon My holy hill of Zion.” During the Messianic reign the throne of the Lord Jesus in Jerusalem will represent heavenly rule and therefore be a centre of divine wisdom, power, authority and righteousness. Micah says: “But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into [ploughshares], and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Mic. 4:1-3; cf. Is. 24:23).

    Beating “swords into ploughshares” means re-using the same metal, which can only refer to earth – there are no swords in heaven, nor ploughs needed there! A complete absence of weapons, military training and war is unprecedented in history and can only refer to God’s kingdom coming and His will being “done in earth, as it is in heaven” (Mt. 6:10). The devil will, at last, be securely bound and unable to deceive, and sin will be restrained during Christ’s thousand year “rod of iron” rule. Even the animal creation will benefit and predation will cease: “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Is. 11:9).

    Jerusalem will spontaneously be recognised by all peoples as world capital and no hostility or political tension will exist between individual nations: “At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the [stubbornness] of their evil heart” (Jer. 3:17).

    Laxity will be the only form of misconduct, as some nations will neglect their duty to go up to Jerusalem to worship the King. It may still be a matter of the spirit being willing but the flesh weak (Mt. 26:41). Their neglect will provoke a rebuke and disciplinary measures from the King: “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain” (Zech. 14:16-17).

    At the beginning of the Millennium, the remnant of the nations who survived the great tribulation and the battle of Armageddon will honour the Lord (Zech. 14:16). However, the upcoming generations will increasingly manifest their fallen nature which they will inherit from their first ancestor, Adam. These peoples will be evangelised by Israel, who will all serve the Lord with one accord, and many will be saved: “[The Lord] shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit” (Is. 27:6; cf. Zech. 8:23).

    The doctrine of the two resurrections is also clearly related to the Millennium. Only those who have part in the first resurrection (Lk. 14:14; 1 Thes. 4:16), including O.T. believers and those saved during the tribulation, will rule with Christ. We should “examine” ourselves (2 Cor. 13:5) and ask God to “search” us (Ps. 139:23-24) to be quite sure we are born-again so as to qualify for the first resurrection: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years” (Rev. 20:6).

    The rest of the dead are the unsaved multitude of all centuries, and they will not be resurrected until the thousand years have ended (Rev. 20:5). They will then appear before the great white throne to be judged and condemned to the eternal lake of fire (Jude v. 7).
    Characteristics of the millennial reign

    Remembering the words of the prayer the Lord Jesus taught us, “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” (Mt. 6:10), the following are the most important characteristics of the future reign of peace on earth:

    · God will rule on earth through His King of kings, Jesus Christ. A theocratic world government will, therefore, be established (Lk. 1:31-33; Rev. 19:15; Dan. 7:13-14).

    · Christ will reign on David’s restored throne in Jerusalem and Israel will be the hub of the world (Ps. 2:6-12; Zech. 8:22; Is. 2:2-3; 24:23; 33:17,20-22; Dan. 7:27). His government will be characterised by righteousness and equity (Is. 1:26-27; 32:1-2; 16-17; Jer. 23:5-6).

    · Israel’s capital, Jerusalem, “the city of our God”, “the city of the great King”, will be the centre of worship for the whole world and all nations will converge there to worship God through Christ the King of kings (Ps. 48; Zech. 14:16-20; Is. 66:18-23; Rev. 19:16).

    · The saved remnant of Israel will rejoice in the Lord and evangelise the entire world (Is 12:3-6; 27:6; 40:9; 51:11). They will make the world fruitful (Is. 27:6) and God will be honoured (Is. 28:5; Zech. 8:20-23).

    · Satan will be securely bound so that he cannot deceive the nations (Rev. 20:1-4).

    · Peace will prevail everywhere. There will be no more war or military training and weapons will be recycled for peaceful uses (Is. 2:4; 9:7; Mic. 5:4-5; Hos. 2:18).

    · The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea (Is. 11:9-10; Hab. 2:14).

    · There will be no disease (Mal. 4:2; Is. 33:24).

    · People will live healthily and actively to a great age – like the antediluvians. A 100 year-old person will be regarded as a child (Is. 65:20-23).

    · Nature will greatly benefit since the curse of Genesis 3:17-19 will be lifted and the whole of creation, which since then has been groaning, will be set free from the bondage of corruption into glorious liberty (Rom. 8:19-22; Is. 55:12-13; Joel 3:18).

    · An agricultural or horticultural way of life is indicated and the earth will produce food so prolifically that planting the next crop will take place before the previous one has been fully harvested! (Mic. 4:3-4; Amos 9:13-15; Is. 65: 21-23; Ps. 65:9-13).

    · Harmony will prevail in the animal kingdom. The wolf will lie down with the lamb and the lion will eat straw like an ox – they will “not hurt nor destroy” each other – because the Lord will make a new covenant with the animals that will change the physiology and aggressive nature of the carnivorous predators into the physiology and gentle nature of herbivores (Is. 11:6-9; 65:25; Hos. 2:18).
    Israel’s position in the Millennium

    Israel’s position during the coming Messianic era is frequently described in the Old Testament where it is specifically related to the day of the Lord. It will be a time of great blessing, abundance, joy in the Lord and peace on earth. Israel will fulfil its original destiny and potential as a people of God and be a nation through whom He will bless the whole earth. Paul says of them: “Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! … For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” (Rom. 11:12,15 NKJV).

    Through Israel’s fall, by rejecting and crucifying their Messiah, the gospel of reconciliation with God has been offered not only to Jews but to Gentiles also. What a tremendous blessing that is to the Gentiles! How much more will Israel be a blessing to the world in the Millennium as they proclaim the Messiah’s praises among all nations! This will be the long-delayed, but grand consummation of this unique nation’s destiny and calling as the chosen people of God. The following are examples of promises about Israel’s restoration and glory in the coming Messianic era:

    · “And I will bring again the captivity of My people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them… And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them…” (Amos 9:14-15).

    · “Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city…” (Is. 52:1).

    · “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising” (Is. 60:1-3).

    · “And they shall rebuild the old ruins, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations. Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the foreigner shall be your ploughmen and your vine-dressers. But you shall be named the Priests of the Lord, men shall call you the Servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory you shall boast. Instead of your shame you shall have double honour, and instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; everlasting joy shall be theirs. For I, the Lord, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, and will make with them an everlasting covenant. Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the posterity whom the Lord has blessed” (Is. 61:4-9 NKJV).

    · “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more” (Jer. 31:34).

    · “And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And the [nations] shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore” (Ezek. 37:24-28).

    · “And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth” (Zech. 14:8-9).

    · “Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment” (Is. 32:1).

    · “I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for Mine anger is turned away from him. I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon” (Hos. 14:4-6).

    · “For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God. For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: [proclaim] ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save Thy people, the remnant of Israel… Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: …this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days… I will put My law in their [minds], and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people” (Jer. 31:6-7,31,33).

    · “Behold, I will bring [the city] health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth. And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first. And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against Me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against Me. And it shall be to Me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them; and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it” (Jer. 33:6-9).

    · “…ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence, and give Him no rest, till He establish, and till He make Jerusalem a praise in the earth” (Is. 62:6-7).

    These and many other blessings will be characteristic of the Millennium when the Messiah reigns from the throne of David in Jerusalem. His glorified saints will rule with Him and righteousness and equity will prevail on earth (Is. 32:1; Ps. 98:9; Is. 11:4; Rev. 20:6b). Israel will play a leading part in world affairs and will be God’s special representative nation among all the nations of the world.
    Proofs that the Millennium is future

    Irrefutable evidence that the millennial dispensation is still future is provided by the following very distinctive features of the Millennium which still await literal fulfilment:
    Prophecies of Israel’s blessings not yet fulfilled!

    Divine prophecies of Israel being re-gathered to their land, spiritually revived, elevated above all nations and abundantly blessed (Deut. 28:1-14; 30:1-4; Ezek. 36:24-28; Is. 60:1-22; Hos. 14:5-8; Rom. 11:26-27) have never been fulfilled. On the contrary, no nation has suffered and survived anything like the prolonged world-wide dispersion, disdain, persecution, hatred and genocide which the people of Israel have during the past two millennia. God’s promises never fail – they will be honoured in the Millennium.
    A literal 1000 years!

    The amillennialist claim that the six-fold mention in Revelation 20 of “a thousand years” represents the Christian era of circa 2000 years is untenable. Without doubt it is still future and will be literally fulfilled, just as the prophecy of the Babylonian captivity of 70 years was literally fulfilled (Jer. 25: 11-12). A thousand-year reign of Christ would have ended circa AD 1033, followed by Judgement day!
    The binding of Satan

    At Christ’s appearance the devil will be bound so “that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled” (Rev. 20:3). We know from Job 2:1-6 that Satan is ultimately limited by the supreme authority of God and can only act within the restrictions imposed on him. According to amillennialists Satan is bound and Messiah has been reigning as Prince of Peace for the past 2000 years! If those years have been peaceful we may well ask, what on earth will happen after Satan’s release? If Satan is indeed bound in prison why are we warned against his devices (2 Cor. 2:11), subtle deception (2 Cor. 11:3), wiles (Eph. 6: 11), fiery darts (Eph. 6:16), temptation (1 Cor. 7:5), snares (1 Tim. 3:7), power (Acts 26:18), persecution (Rev. 2:10), and efforts to devour us (1 Pet. 5:8)?
    Kingdom theology

    One of the major reasons for the theological confusion and apostasy in the end-time church is its lack of dispensational discernment. Prophecies about a future kingdom on earth are allegorised, or spiritualised, and applied to the church. In that way, the Millennium is equated with the church age and some Christians feel justified in developing and practising kingdom theology. The door has thereby been opened for the following false doctrines to be brought into the church:
    Dominion theology

    It is asserted that we should rule as kings, even as little gods, and take control over the world now. Because of the authority vested in us we have the power to change things in the material and spiritual realms by our words – called positive confession or word of faith. Christians will soon occupy leadership positions in politics and other areas of public life, thereby obtaining the authority to legislate for society in accordance with Christian principles.

    Comment: Dominion theology is derived from the promise that we will rule with Christ in the Millennium (Rev. 5:10; 20: 1-6). Those who wrongly assume that we are in the Millennium now, mistakenly try to live up to their claim to be kings.

    The binding of Satan

    It is claimed that the authority vested in us in this kingdom era, empowers Christians to engage in strategic spiritual warfare against the kingdom of darkness, pulling down evil strongholds, binding Satan and stripping him of his power. Peter Wagner, George Otis, Marches for Jesus, etc., promote this practice globally, claiming to liberate cities, regions and even entire countries from demonic bondage.

    Comment: The devil will only be bound at the Second Coming of Christ when the millennial age begins. It is highly presumptuous to argue that we can bind the devil now and deprive him of his territory in this present evil age of which he is “the god” (2 Cor. 4:4). Demons can only be cast out of individuals now, not from geographical areas!
    Christian reconstruction of the world

    Proponents of kingdom theology have a vision to reconstruct, or transform, the world in accordance with Christian principles. They are advocating a process of social, political, moral and religious transformation aimed at creating a peaceful and just Christian world. They argue that when they have achieved this vision by preaching a mixture of the true gospel with politico-social reform, then the kingdom will have come – even before the King comes!

    Comment: In the Millennium, spiritual deception, war, violence, injustice and immorality will indeed vanish from the scene (Jer. 3:17). However, we are not in the Millennium now, but in an evil world which is strongly influenced by Satan (Acts 26:18; Eph. 6:12). Sadly, most people are on the broad way to hell and prefer darkness to light (Jn. 3:19).
    Prosperity gospel

    Many Christians get carried away by the promises of economic abundance during the Millennium and jump to the unfounded conclusion that these promises are intended for the church age. They proclaim a prosperity gospel of name it and claim it, and suggest that all who have a strong faith should be very prosperous and free of any problems or hardships in life. If you are sick, bed-ridden, poor, unemployed and without a big house and large car of your own, your faith must be very weak!

    Comment: Economic abundance will indeed characterise the Millennium (Amos 9:13-14). However, in the present age we have to be content with what we have (1 Tim. 6:8), not strive for material riches (Lk. 12:15) but prepared to be poor (2 Cor. 6:10; Jas. 2:5) and to suffer for Christ (Phil. 1:29).
    Signs and wonders

    The advocates of kingdom theology say that we should demonstrate our superior spiritual powers by performing great signs and wonders – including sensational healing miracles. Even the most weird, mystical manifestations such as hysterical laughter, jerking, falling down when “zapped”, making animal noises, and being “drunk in the Spirit”, are irreverently ascribed to the activity of the Holy Spirit.

    Comment: The signs and wonders of the last days are explicitly associated with false prophets (Mt. 24:11,24). They are paving the way for the appearance of the Antichrist, whose coming will be “after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders” (2 Thes. 2:9). Biblical truth is not the norm, but new and dramatic experiences.
    Uniting the world

    Kingdom theology is aimed at the ecumenical unification of the world church in preparation for the coming of the King. Theologians and church leaders with this mindset advocate a global new world order of unity and peace. This a human-centred theology of creating a humanistic kingdom on earth before the coming of Christ. Ecumenicalists are devoted to social, political and economic change in the world, working hand-in-hand with New Age leaders.

    Comment: The united world church mentioned in the Bible is described as an apostate organisation representing all the false religions. This body is identified as “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth” (Rev. 17:5). The true church of Christ cannot enter into association with non-Christian religions – nor with false teachers within the professing church.
    The true Millennium

    Let us eagerly expect the true Millennium that will commence after the coming of the King, Jesus Christ. Only He can save the remnant of Israel and of the nations (Zech. 12:10; Mt. 24:30-31), bind and incarcerate the devil (Rev. 20:1-3), restore the throne of David (Acts 2:29-30) and change everything on earth for the better. If we are prepared to suffer now and serve the Lord in the face of much opposition (Acts 14: 22), we will accompany Him during His triumphant return (Zech. 14:4-5) and reign with Him on earth (2 Tim. 2:12).

    The deceivers and false prophets who are striving to establish a humanistic Utopia on earth before the coming of the King, are exerting themselves in a futile effort to achieve an unattainable humanist dream. There are conditions on earth that we simply cannot change before Jesus comes again! Instead we have a thrilling expectation for the future at His coming – we will not only escape the great tribulation (Rev. 3:10) by the rapture, but return seven years later to rule with Him during His millennial reign (Rev. 5:9-10)!

    Above all, the most important thing about the millennial reign is that our Lord Jesus will be completely vindicated and glorified on this very earth where He “went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil” (Acts 10:38), yet was so disgracefully humiliated, despised, rejected, cruelly cast out as worthless and crucified by the fallen creatures that He, as Creator, had made. God’s answer to this is that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess Him as Lord (Phil. 2:6-11).

    Jesus will also be vindicated in the eyes of that very nation which was so very honoured by His first coming, yet so dismally failed and sinned in that they did not recognise Him as their true Messiah, despite His clear fulfilment of their Scriptures. Pilate’s inscription above the cross will be vindicated and fulfilled in that Jesus will reign not only as “king of kings, and lord of lords” (Rev. 19:16) universally, but also as “king of the jews” (Mk. 15:26) in Jerusalem!

    http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Millennium.htm

  • joe closet

    What you fail to comprehend is that the majority of so called “Domionists” are, in fact, Pre-Tib believer’s brought up on the heretical “Left Behind” series by Tim LaHaye (a multi millionaire backer of the Religious Right in America). Question: If the “rapture” was indeed “Pre-Trib” then how then could the beast system and “AntiChrist” ever deceive the world? Answer: They couldn’t! Meaning: The system and the “Antichrist”, both of which will come out of the United States and the “Religious Right” will deceive people in that NOTHING even close to the “rapture” will happen before or during when they eventually seize power and begin their rampage. If the so called “Rapture” were to happen before this period then the world would know what is next? It’s common sense really isn’t it?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    joe closet

    >> Pre-Tib believer’s brought up on the heretical “Left Behind” series by Tim LaHaye (a multi millionaire backer of the Religious Right in America)

    Um… what the? What planet do you come from?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Burning Lamp said to Donna:

    “2011/01/19 at 4:32 pm
    Thanks for the clarification Donna – but don’t let the enemy rob you of the Blessed Hope, the pre-trib catching away of the Church. If anyone had ANY idea of what the Great Trib will be like, the deception that will be rampant, you think it is bad NOW – just wait – we ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!!! In order for the AC and evil to fully manifest itself, the Church has to be taken out of the way!! And the apostate church will be left behind. Anyhoo, just give this some thought – I pray God enlightens you – not a dividing issue – but just hate to see you robbed of this blessing. Grace and peace to you sister!”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Matthias said to Burning Lamp:
    2011/01/19 at 9:45 pm

    Dear Burning Lamp,

    I am sorry, but Dispensationalism is very dangerous and not a good method of understanding the Bible. Nearly all reformers were using historicism to understand the Bible for very good reasons. Dispensationalism is a rather new invention and it simple makes huge parts of the Word of God null and void, just like the pharisees did with their traditions.

    May God bless you,
    Matthias

    [EDITED by DTW: One thing I have noticed with ALL people that are anti dispensational – they believe all sorts of other STRANGE things – make a note of this and see how the lid of the anti-dispensationalist fits the pot of the roman catholic church well ;)]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Donna said to Burning Lamp:

    2011/01/21 at 7:17 am
    BL, as I understand it, the Blessed Hope is the return of the Lord. Yes, things are getting worse by the day, but as I’ve studied the catching away, it is the tares that are taken out first & then the wheat & I believe that’s why the Lord has to shorten the days of the tribulation. I still believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit & that we need to continue to be filled as in Ephes. & I do believe we need the gifts of the Holy Spirit to help us & help others. Just b/c there are counterfeits running rampant, esp. these days, does not mean that there is no genuinue. Anyway, each of us has our differences as we are growing & learning but we know that the agape love of God within us is the most important of all & to agape love others as well.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Donna said to Burning Lamp

    2011/01/21 at 7:29 am
    BL, since the Blessed Hope is a fact, why would the Lord exclude anyone just b/c they may have a different understanding or interpretation? I don’t think so. Is the Lord going to ferret out everyone according to their studying & understanding at that time in their lives? I think not, but maybe I misunderstood what you were saying…Anyway,God bless you richly in Christ Jesus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Burning Lamp said to Donna

    2011/01/21 at 4:30 pm
    Donna, just because someone doesn’t believe in the pre-trib, they are not excluded. One’s eschatology has nothing to do with one’s salvation or qualification for the Rapture. It is just that when one believes in the Blessed Hope of the pre-trib that it is a huge comfort in the midst of this crazy world and all its disappointments and trials. It is the expectation of His imminent return that is a purifying factor as well.

    The Rapture will occur at the end of the Church Age and then all hell will break loose. How is this possible with the Church on the earth? The Bridegroom will come for His Bride and we will all be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and then we will return to reign with Him during the Millenium.

    Yes, Donna, you will be caught up whether you believe or not, but there is a crown for those who await His imminent return.

    Many blessings back atcha – I can tell you are a dear sister who loves the Lord – I hope you come to know and understand the Blessed Hope. But even if you don’t, you will come along with the rest of us who do. :-)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Linda Harris said:
    2011/01/22 at 8:20 pm

    Eph 4:
    7BUT UNTO EVERY ONE OF US IS GIVEN GRACE ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE OF THE GIFT OF CHRIST. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, AND GAVE GIFTS UNTO MEN.(9,10)11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    It would stand to reason that if there are no prophets or that is if the office or ministry of a prophet were still not part of Gods gifts and plans, that then there would also be no teachers, evangelists or pastors. A prophet wasn’t simply a man that heard the message from God first hand and then spoke it to the people. But was also any man or woman who claimed to be speaking for God. This would include anyone who writes a blog or shares and teaches in anyway, that the Bible teaches so and so. You are in effect saying “Thus sayeth the Lord.

    Paul goes on to state the purpose and for what “time” these ministries, gifts (whatever) will be in force.

    “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: TILL (UNTIL) we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Again the purpose being) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    It is obvious by these statements, that these gift, ministries (whatever)would be in force until the body of Christ, that was foretold to fall away or apostasize from the truth, would RECOVER the truth, and grow up into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, where they would so hold to the truth, that they would be able to discern rightly who truly spoke for God and who didn’t. OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE NOT COME TO THAT TIME YET! However we do see a great falling out of and away from the false gospel of the last 2000 years, individuals who are seeing and renoucing false doctrines, and seeking the truth. At the same time we are also seeing lying signs and wonders beginning in the Church. The “experiences” of these people are real, just not from the real one and true God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ. And are simply a last ditch effort for Satan to hold on to as many people as he can, as the saints come out of her, and rediscover the original understanding of the original gospel.

    This will not happen until all of the false ideas and concepts developed in the church in the last 2000 years are finally seen and renouced, and God’s children are walking in the same knowledge and understanding of scripture they had in the first century. However as they attempt to come out of this deception, there are still many “liers in wait”, many who claim to have come out themselves, but are yet holding to many docternal errors, can catching them coming out, and leading them back into the same old errors.

    Why is PERFECT docternal accuracy and understanding regarding everything Jesus said IMPORTANT?

    2 Cor 11
    2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    The absolute truth and understanding of the original gospel is vital in that any varriation whatsoever brings with it ANOTHER SPIRIT. Remember Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS who had already believed in Christ, and already we know received the holy spirit. Yet, even so, by not holding on to the truth they were taught AS IT WAS TAUGHT, meaning the understanding of that truth, not just quoted scriptures (which can be and are taken out of context to present a false image), they would if they received another understanding, also receive ANOTHER SPIRIT. Again EVEN AFTER THEY HAD RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    This is why having and holding on to a perfect understanding and knowledge of the truth as it was taught and understood by Jesus and the apostels if VITAL, for this is what keeps a person CLEAN from that UN-HOLY spirit, one receives when one is indoctrinated into another gospel.

    Paul continues his “prophecy” to the Ehpesians, which in reality simply fortells what is, what was, and what is foretold to eventually come to pass, God’s people would loose the truth, soon even before the death of the original apostles, and recover it once again, right towards the end of the age. Whereas they had the truth and lost it, many centuries later God’s deceived children who were in bondage to error, would come out of it, discover the original truth and manage to HOLD onto it long enough for the Lord to return and rescue them from the coming “wrath”.

    “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: TILL (UNTIL) we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Again the purpose being) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking (the Gk word has the direct meaning of HOLDING ON TO, and thus them speaking) the truth, in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    This is the wise virgin he’s coming for, not those to whome God allows a strong delusion, because they received not a love of the truth. So yes TRUTH or DOCTRINE DOES MATTER. But does that mean that all those left are damned? No but they will not be saved from what is called the “hour of trial”.

    Rev 3:10
    Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Now if you want to believe that this means you get out of here before the tribulation mentioned in the very first part of Rev. i.e. the 4 horsemen, then that’s up to you, all I know is that Jesus said “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the tribulation of those days, would be when he sent his angels to gather his elect together. Beginning his endtime discourse in Matt 25 with “TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECEIVE YOU,” referring to mens teachings about eshcatology or endtime events. and he ended with the story of the 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish virgins, 5 taken and 5 left for that hour of temptation, which according to his teaching on those times, begins after the time of great tribulation. So do end time doctrines and beliefs matter? I would say so, since not to truly understand and know the truth, simply means you have more of a love of your pet doctrine that you do for the truth, making you a foolish virgin.

    So are there prophets today? No, not yet. There are not prophets of God, because God’s children have not as yet recovered the original understanding of Jesus teachings. When they read the bible they read all the false doctrines they have been taught by both the Church and “another spirit” they received when they were indoctrinated into these things. But are there prophets today? Again, no not until the saints recover the understanding of the gospel AKA THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS.

    Rev. 19:10
    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

    Truth is that most Christians really do not know or follow the testimony of Jesus, which is now contained in the writings of gospels. Hence without holding strong to, understanding and doing those words which Jesus said “ARE SPIRIT”, they have no true light, and no spirit working in them to the degree that they could prophesy. Hence even though they may not all be prophets per say, they would still have to be able to “prophesy” to eventually if it were God’s will walk into the office of a prophet.

    It is through the office of an apostle/prophet that most of the mighty works, signs, miricles, wonders, healings took place. These were specifically allowed by God for one main purpose to CONFIRM THE TRUTH that they were teaching. But today since God’s saints do not hold the truth (YET), God will not back up the lies they believe with genuine supernatural acts. Hence pretty much what we are getting is counterfeit demon manifestations claiming to be the holy spirit.

    True prophecy is simply the holy spirit bringing to your remembrance the word of God, that you have already put in your mind and heart, in order to produce the following effect.

    1 Cor 14:24
    24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

    God knows exactly what any individual has to hear to believe in him. Ultimately this is what prophecy was for, as well as edification, exortation and comfort. Prophecy is simply the word being brought forth through devine inspiration of the holy spirit within you. But it can only take place if you have been taught the truth, and hold to and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is simply one aspect of what the holy spirit actually does.

    Best Regards,

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Donna said to Burning Lamp:

    2011/01/22 at 8:44 pm
    From BL–”Yes, Donna, you will be caught up whether you believe or not, but there is a crown for those who await His imminent return.”

    BL–
    I see three crowns listed in the bible–the crown of righteousness, the crown of life, & the crown of glory.

    As I understand it, the Blessed Hope is the appearing of our Lord,(nothing about any moment return). If by imminent you mean coming, nearing, approaching, yes, that’s what I believe, I just do not believe in an “any moment: return b/c of what it says in
    2 Thes. 2:1-3) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    Let NO man deceive you by ANY means: for that day shall NOT come, except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST, AND that MAN OF SIN be REVEALED, the son of perdition; So it looks like this falling away is evident BUT I don’t see the son of perdition REVEALED as yet.

    So of course, I look forward to the appearing of the Lord b/c of the beauty of His holiness & loveliness & love, & power & pure justice, etc. & also b/c of the ugliness & wickedness of this world in which we are not citizens. Titus 2:13 –Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    And here’s the crown of righteousness laid up for those who love His appearing. (no any moment return here). 2 Timothy 4:8 — Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    We know it’s for those who endure temptation & for those who love Him: James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    And here we see that we are to hold fast to that which we have so as not to lose our crown. (Nothing here about any moment return.) Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: (the meaning is suddenly) hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    So according to the vss. I’ve included here, there is nothing about receiving a crown just for those who wait for His imminent return. Now I realize that we can only write & understand so much thru the use of the computer & lots of times we have things in our minds but we don’t write them all down. Perhaps that’s what you did, BL. I just wanted to make this clear to anyone who may be reading this to go by what is written & not just some idea about the crown of life that is not written in the bible. :-) Blessings on all those who love & search for the truth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Deborah said to Donna

    2011/01/23 at 6:42 am | In reply to Donna.
    Donna

    PLEASE have this discussion under the rapture topic. http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/01/06/the-rapture-an-article-to-knock-your-socks-off/ and –

    Your understanding of the premillennialism is incorrect – hence the arguments you level at the rapture are false. Understand premillennialism correctly FIRST and then tell me it’s wrong. I’ve read more than 50 different people who were postmillennial or amillennial level a charge against premillennialism and they all did not actually understand the the entire thing properly – which would make their claims seem valid – but it wasn’t. What EXACTLY do you believe? But please answer under the rapture topic.

    As you can see Linda is already throwing her toys out her cot levelling all sorts of things against me because you brought up the rapture thing and now this topic will be ruined because of it.

    Revelation 3:10 (Amplified Bible)

    10 Because you have guarded and kept My word of patient endurance [have held fast the lesson of My patience with the expectant endurance that I give you], I also will keep you [safe] from the hour of trial (testing) which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Donna said to Deborah

    2011/01/23 at 9:34 am
    Hi Deb,
    My comment about the rapture was only b/c you brought it up to me.I’m finished here re any more comments about my thoughts to BL.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    CONVERSATION MOVED from Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased? to this TOPIC:

    Deborah said to Donna:

    2011/01/23 at 11:19 am
    Donna

    Look at what you said in your first comment? that was taking a poke at me suggesting that this article I wrote was incorrect due to the fact that I also follow Premillennialism. You said, “I realize you are trying your best to disseminate the truth, but as any of us can be off the mark at times, so can you in your efforts to help others, yet certainly not meaning to lead anyone away from the truth. For instance, just b/c you believe that there is a pre-trib rapture doesn’t mean that it bears out in the NT” {sighs} I think I am just going to not bother answering reading comments today… I don’t have time for these silly word games. If you want to take me on please do so under the correct topic!

  • Martin Horan

    We can argue about Rapture and no-Rapture till the the cows come home, in spite of the very obvious truth.
    If there is no Rapture then the Bible certainly contradicts itself. That’s because the Scriptures referring to the Rapture and those that refer to Christ’s second coming show totally different scenarios.
    We Christians are told that He can come and any time and we are to be ready because no-one will be expecting Him and it will be a time of relative peace.
    When Christ returns at Armageddon immediately after the Great Tribulation (showing it won’t be a time of any kind of peace) especially as people will be collapsing with their hearts failing them and others crying for the rocks to fall on them, Christians wouldn’t have to be told to be ready. We’d be waiting for seven years since the start of the Great Tribulation!
    Jesus Himself tells us that there would never be a time like it since the beginning of time till the end of time. Of course, there are Preterists who believe that Jesus was either joking, lying, or simply didn’t know what He was talking about because they tell us that that happened in 70 AD at the fall of Jerusalem.
    We all know that far worse things have happened to the Jews–let alone Christians and the Gentiles–since then: the Christian martyrs, the Holocaust, Nagaski, Hiroshima, Viet Nam, Cambodia, and what’s going on right now between Moslems slaughtering Moslems. But I wouldn’t take too seriously what Preterists claim. They are prophesied of in 2nd Peter 3:3-5. (That can only apply to pseudo-Christians because agnostics, atheists and pagans don’t know anything about the promise of Christ’s Second Coming.)
    What I find sad about the anti-Rapture brigade is their utter hostility in their arguments. Their subjectivity is the result of refusing to look at the Scriptures and compare them and the refusal to take on historical and other facts which contradict their already held paradigms.
    Worse! They revert to personal insult and deliberate distortion of facts–as shown in some of the above comments–which makes one wonder why they are not involved in politics rather than Christian apologetics. Their approach to argumentation is surely far better suited to politics than any kind of Christian debate.

  • Albert

    [deleted – my arn’t you just a mean nasty person]

  • Tom Lessing

    carrie daniel wrote:

    Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

    Do your really think the King of kings and Lord of Lords will have to shorten those days during the Tribulation if Coca Cola and its ads took center stage? “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. (Mat 24:22)

  • Christina

    I got saved in 1987, joined a spirit filled Lutheran church and devoured the word of God, went to every lecture, study, and seminar that I could find, and was blessed in all my pursuits for truth. I believed in speaking in tongues, the rapture of the church before the tribulation, and was comfortable in those teachings until I started to really dig into the word. I learned how to read back to the original languages, what greek grammar rules were and why 2 thessalonians does not refer to the holy spirit being removed and thus satan having full access to mankind. I won’t go into that here, my point is you have to keep the word in context with it’s subject.

    You did the very thing so many do when citing the “two women at the mill and one is taken and the other left” as proof of some rapture, when you just need to keep it in context. What did Jesus just say before that? “As in the days of Noah when the flood came and TOOK them all away and only Noah and his family were LEFT!” What took that woman? It was the flood. What does the serpent cast out of his mouth against the woman (church) in Revelation? He casts out a flood from his mouth, and what comes from your mouth? Lies come from your mouth, and thus the one taken in the field is taken in a flood of lies! She is wholly seduced, following the imposter Christ, and is one of the five unwise virgins who did not put oil (truth) in her lamp to wait for her bridegroom!

    I made a video about this that you can watch here: [url removed]

    The tribulation of antichrist is seduction not beheading. Be very careful for the hour is late.

  • Christina, your last remark completely disqualifies your remark on the Rapture.

    The tribulation of antichrist is seduction not beheading. Be very careful for the hour is late.

    First of all the seven year tribulation is not Antichrist’s tribulation. It is God’s tribulation which He is going to bring upon the entire world. It is not Satan who is going to open the seals, but Jesus Christ Himself, unless Satan is worthy of doing it (Rev 5:2). Secondly you are totally wrong to say that the tribulation is seduction and not beheading. If seduction was the tribulation then the tribulation must have started in the Garden of Eden and has continued to this very moment. In any case the Bible clearly says that the method Antichrist is going to use to kill believers during the Great Tribulation is beheading.

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

  • R. Roth

    Everyone thinks their view is correct, but how can you really tell, and how important is it really?

    Both Jesus and Paul tell us to be careful that no man deceive you concerning this issue… Matt. 24:4, 2 Thess. 2:3. Peter tells us that those who don’t get it correct, “..twist the scriptures as the always do…” 2 Pet. 3:16. So obviously the warning stipulates that there is a lot of deception and twisting of the Word.

    If you are interested in the truth, you must be willing to set aside all opinion, assumption, conjecture and speculation. If you can do this the truth will become available to you. This is not an easy task, especially if you have studied a lot of man’s opinion, and therefore see through those lenses. If you, however, are new to the study, let the Bible be your guide. Otherwise, you must be able to set aside all the movies, lectures, and ideas that may have bombarded you with man’s opinion over the years.

    One certain way to understand that the Word of God has been tampered with is that certain ideas or doctrines create loose ends that must be tied up and therefore must be explained only by man. Like a child who has told a lie and must tell others to cover for the first on. These ideas create sub-doctrines that cannot be substantiated by the Word and must be explained by someone in order to be understood. You will not be able to find any explanation from the Word, because they are super-scriptural, and therefore added to the Word. For the truth to be found the idea must flow with the whole of Scripture and all “loose end” must be dealt with by Scripture, leaving no room for man to interfere.

    Here is an example of a loose end or sub-doctrine: The pre-tribulation rapture view tells us that the bride is raptured seven years prior to the second coming. That is the initial idea. However it creates many loose ends that must be explained and must be addressed solely by man. One loose end is the sub-doctrine of the tribulation saints. The tribulation saint cannot be the bride, because the bride is in heaven (according to the view). This causes many problems with the whole of Scripture; “we are one body in Christ Jesus”, the promises that apply to the bride, don’t apply to the tribulation saints, etc. How can the saints be one body as a bride, and another as separate from the bride, and remain one body? Man’s explanation of this view, tells us that the tribulation saints must become eternal heavenly servants of the bride. This in effect makes the tribulation saints greater than the bride, because, “He who wishes to be greatest in the kingdom of heaven must become a servant of all.” If that is the case, it would be more desirable to be a tribulation saint than a member of the bride. There are a lot of other complications that this the concept of tribulation saints bring, and those who carry this particular view cannot agree exactly on how this all plays out. Here in lies the problem. It is super-scriptural in nature. Not explained by the Word and therefore the end result must be conjured to make sense of it all. As a result there will be many views concerning the sub-doctrines. This is a loose end that creates a sub-doctrine that is derived and conjured by man. Be careful that no man deceive you! This sub-doctrine is a secondary lie to cover the initial.

    Another issue is a doctrine changing the Word of God to be able to accommodate their view. Peter addresses this… 2 Peter 3:16. In order for the doctrine to be received it must be taught to those with a shallow understanding of the Word.

    Here is an example of this: Luke 21:36 tells us to pray always that we may be counted worthy to escape all that is coming upon the earth… The pre-tribulation view tells us that the word “escape” in this passage refers to the rapture. Okay if that is the case, what does this concept do with the rest of the verse? “…Pray always that you may be counted worthy…” Most have the understanding that the prerequisite to being raptured is being saved. We are saved by grace and not by works or being worthy… Eph 2:8,9. However, for the word “escape” to be the rapture, we must be raptured by our worthiness and pray always accordingly. So now we are told that only some Christians will be raptured because not all are worthy, although saved. To continue this thinking, they would also loose any bride status in order to become tribulation saints. Perhaps even having to have to face martyrdom to earn their way into heaven because Christ died for the bride, and not for them. This verse creates division among those who hold the view. Some believe there is no division of those who are saved that get raptured at the rapture and some do. Overall the understanding of salvation equating those “assigned for rapture” must be severed, otherwise we would have to be saved by works, contrary to the Word. Jesus told us the parable of the 10 virgins in Matt. 25. The five foolish were not only told, “depart from me, I never knew you,” but “go to hell” as well. What they were not told is that they would get a second chance as a tribulation saint. As you can see the Word gets changed (twisted as Peter states) to accommodate the view.

    You must ask yourself, is your own desires clouding your view? Often I get asked, “Why would you want to go through the great tribulation?” As if what I want as anything to do with God’s plan. The obvious conclusion to those who ask this question is that their personal desires have clouded their perception of the truth. Is it foolish to walk directly in the direction of persecution? Peter rebuked Jesus for walking into His crucifixion. Jesus in turn stated, “Get thee behind me Satan.” Today the church spends much of their time running from taking up their cross.

    If Peter tells us that those who do not get it right concerning the view of eschatology (end times), “twist the scripture as they always do.” The “as they always do” is huge. That means that your perceptions of truth concerning your “end time” beliefs exemplifies your perception of the Scriptures as a whole. This puts great importance upon the study of eschatology. We must be lovers of the truth, if not God Himself will send a delusion upon us as stated in 2 Thess. 2 at the end of chapter.

  • R. Roth

    I agree! We should take heed that no one deceives us, including you. You too should be diligent and attentive so as not to be deceived. However, several of your statements show that you have already been deceived. Some of the major mistakes you are making, are the following:

    1) You fail to make a distinction between the Church and Israel.
    2) You fail to see that the Rapture is not in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
    3) You fail to see what the purpose is of the Seven Year Tribulation.
    4) You are elevating eschatology to the status of salvation.

    1) Typology plays a very important role in the Bible. I am sure you will agree that many Old Testament figures typified certain aspects of Jesus Christ’s life on earth. A person who fits into this category and our topic of discussion for the moment, is Joseph who is said to have typified Jesus as the suffering servant. The following are some of the things Joseph typified.

    a. Jacob, Joseph’s father, loved him very dearly. Genesis 37:4a
    God the Father, dearly loves Jesus Christ, His Son. Matthew 3:17; John 3:35; John 5:20.

    b. Joseph’s brothers hated him. Genesis 37:4b.
    Jesus’s brothers (his brethren the Jews) hated him (and they still hate Him). John 15:25.

    c. Joseph’s brothers rejected his claims that they would bow before him. Genesis 37:8.
    Jesus was rejected by his brothers because He claimed that He is the Son of God. In fact they thought he was crazy. Matthew 21: 37-39; John 15:24; Psalm 35:19; Psalm 69:5.

    d. Joseph’s brothers planned to kill him. Genesis 37:18.
    Jesus’s own people (the Jews) made plans to kill Him. Matthew 26:3 & 4.

    e. Joseph was as good as dead to his brothers.
    Although Joseph was not killed like Jesus, his father, Jacob, believed that he was dead because his brothers told him that a wild animal had killed him. Genesis 37:21.
    Jesus was killed by crucifixion. Matthew 27:35-37.

    f. Joseph was a great blessing for the heathen in Egypt and he acquired a bride for himself. Genesis 41:1-45.
    Jesus became a great blessing for the heathen (the non-Jewish people) and He acquired a bride from among the Gentile nations for Himself. Ephesians 5:25-32; Isaiah 61:10.

    g. Joseph was given a position high above all the inhabitants of Egypt and his own family. Genesis 45:1-15; Psalm 105: 17 – 19
    Jesus was given a position and a Name above all God’s creation. Matthew 28:19 & 20; Ephesians 1: 18 – 23.

    i. Joseph was reconciled to his brothers. Genesis 45: 1 – 15.
    Israel (the Jews) will eventually be reconciled to Jesus. Romans 11: 1 & 2.

    Of particular imprtance to our discussion is the fact that, like Joseph, Jesus is presently acquiring for Himself a bride amongst the Gentile nations (not the nation of Israel). The nation of Israel, as we see from Scripture, is not part of the bride of Christ but is God the Father’s wife (Jeremiah 3:14). The very same prophet Jeremiah called the yet future Seven Years Tribulation Period the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), indicating that the bride of Christ whom He is taking from among the Gentile nations (and not the Jewish nation) will not have any part in the tribulation. Indeed, she will have been raptured before the Seven Years Tribulation. In fact, the entire body (bride) of Christ (and not only a part of her) will be raptured. The verses that prove this is Roman 11:25 and 26. The phrase “fullness (completion) of the Gentiles” refers to the Rapture. A key verse in the correct understanding that the Jews are not part of the bride of Christ is John 3:29, “He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.” John the Baptist says here that he, as a representative of the Jewish nation, is not the bride but the friend of the bridegroom and his bride. The friend of the Bridegroom was only an assistant, not the main participant in the marriage. He may be likened to the modern-day best man at the wedding who rejoices to see his best friend getting married to his sweetheart.

    I will answer the rest of your comment later.

  • Michael

    Article is very hacked up and skips verses that are key. This is common for rapture believers. Bits and pieces instead the entire thought that is given when read as a whole. When the difficult bits appear they wave the magic eraser and say “That bit of the Bible is for the jews not you, because they are saved by race, not grace”. Yuck poowee job on the article

  • Michael,

    Tallking about hacked up . . . as hacked up as your comment that doesn’t even mention one single verse that was supposedly skipped in the article or even one diffiucult bit that was erased? No one said the Jews are not saved by grace. It’s your one track mind that tells you that.

  • toddott

    The Day of the Lord begings when the sun, moon and stars are darkened, according to Joel and Jesus. According to Jesus, this happens “after the tribulation of those days,” and according to John, this happens at the sixth seal. The fiest four seals are NOT to end, but are only “the beginnings of birthpains.” The labor of the Church begins at the fifth seal, with persecution after the Abomination that causes desolation.
    The seals span the entire Church Age and end with the Second Coming on the Day of Atonement. The trumpets span the Great Tribulation and end with the Second coming on the Day of Atonement. The Bowls of wrath span the Day of the Lord after the Great Tribulation, from the Feast of Trumpets to the Second Coming on the Day of Atonement.
    The Rapture occurs during the interlude between the sixth seal/trumpet and seventh seal/trumpet, on the Feast of Trumpets, and while we are in Heaven during the 10 “days of awe” the Bowls are poured out. Christ returns with His Bride to rescue Israel at Armageddon.
    The Bible says that those things that happened to Israel are type/examples and warnings for us on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.”
    Just as the two spies escorted Rahab from the destruction of Jericho AFTER the seventh trumpet within a seventh (the seven bowls of wrath contained within the seventh trumpet) so also the Two Witnessed will escort the Church out of Babylon as is it destroyed.
    Just as Lot was escorted by two angels out of the persection of the men of Sodom, through God’s wrath, so the Church will be escorted out of the persecution, through the wrath of God.
    Just as Israel remained in Egypt during the 10 plagues, so the Church will remain in Babylon during the seven trumpets. Just as Israel passed safely out of the Red Sea wrath of God that destroyed Pharaoh and his armies, so the Church will pass safetly out of the Bowls of wrath as they are poured out on the Antichrist and his followers. The same wrath that saves us (because it was poured out on Christ for us) will destroy unbelievers.
    The Seals are not God’s wrath, nor are that the Tribualtion. They are an overview of what is contained within the Scroll, which cannot be opened until all of the seals are removed. Nor are the trumpets the wrath of God, no matter what those hiding in the rocks believe. They are the judgements of God which are menat to bring repentance. They affect 1/3 of the earth, and during this time, repentance is still offered. However, when God’s patience comes to and end, His wrath will be poured out on the unrepentant. And His wrath will be complete, final and swift. And the Door to the Ark and the Wedding Feast will be closed forever.
    It is not the rapture that happens in the twinkling of an eye, but rather, the change of our bodies from mortal to immortal. Every eyes will see Christ coming on the clouds at the rapture. The New Age Antichrist may explain it as a removal of those who refuse to be part pf the paradigm shift, but God’s wrath will quickly follow.
    Dispensationalism is based on the false idea that God has two peoples. Not so. During the night Jacob wrestled with the Angel, and in admitting his sinfulness, that was was as his name implied, a deceiver, he overcame and was given the name Israel. During the Great Tribulation, Jacob will again wrestle with God, and a remnant who overcomes will be grafted back into the Olive Tree. And there is only ONE Olive Tree, made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. There is one faith, one baptism, one Lord over all who is in all. The saints and elect mentioned in Revelation ARE the Church, the Bride, the New Jerusalem.
    Just as Jesus fillfilled the Spring Feasts on the very days they were oringinally celebrated, so also the Day of the Lord will occur on the very same days as the Fall Feasts. The rapture will occur of the Feast of Trumpets and ten days later (not seven years) Christ will return woth His Bride to rule and reign over those left over from the nations that came against Jerusalem, and those who call themselves Jews but are not, will come and bow before us and admit that He loved us.
    There isn’t one verse that states that the rapture will happen seven years before the Second Coming. Not one.
    That John in Revelation 4 is a picture of the rapture? Not stated anywhere, but is an assumption.
    That the saints and elect are not the Church, even though that is the meaning throughout the rest of the New Testament? Another assumption. The saints that return with Christ clothed in white must not be the Church either. Strange that the Book of Revelation was written to the churches, and yet very little of it has anything to do with the Church.
    The Holy Spirit is the restrainer? Maybe, but not where is it stated that the Church is removed. In fact, the literal translation of the verse is, “that which withholds will continue to withhold until he is revealed in the midst.” There is absolutely no hint of anything or anyone being removed from the earth by a rapture.
    The rapture occuring before the apostay and the man of sin being revealed? Not according to a plain reading of the text.
    Matthew 24 only for Israel? Hmmm. How do you pick and choose whoch parts are for the Church and which aren’t?
    Enoch raptured before the flood is picture of a pretrib rapture? Hmmm. Interesting that before Enoch was rapture, there was a brother (a seed of the serpent) who murdered his brother (the seed of the woman) and received “mark,” and that before he was rapture there was also a man name Lamach that boasted and blasphemed God, concerning Cain’s sevenfold judgement. It seems the typology confirms that Enoch “the seventh from Adam” confirms that Enoch is rapture, after the persecution of God’s people and after the revelation of the Antichrist. Not to mention Elijah being raptured AFTER his dealings with Ahab (antichrist), Jezebel (Mystery Babylon) and the prophets of Baal (false prophet). Noah enters the Ark, but the wrath of God doesn’t fall for seven days. And those who are safe in Christ (the Ark) for those seven days, afterwards rise above the Floodwater (poured out from the seven bowls) at the same time that the rest are destroyed.
    Lot and his two daughters, the three in the fiery furnace, as well as Mary, Martha and Lazarus, are pictures of the dead in Christ, we who are alive and remain, and the remanant of Israel whom Christ returns to in order to raise from the dead after “two days.”

  • toddott

    Tribulation does not equal wrath. They are two entirely different words. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Tribulation is the wrath of God.
    “Because you have guarded my word to persevere, I will keep you from the hour of temptation…” Where does it say the Church will be removed from this earth during this trial? The Church will be guarded in the same way that Israel was kept safe during the plagues.
    As for the Father obtaining the Bride….
    God was betrothed to Israel at Mount Sinai. He divorced His Bride because she was unfaithful, but He said that he would once again draw her back to Him with lovingkindness. He did this through the Cross. There is one Bride, made up of believing Israel and grafted in believing Gentiles. One Church and one Body. One New man out of the two. Jacob married two women, Leah and Rachel. Jesus will marry two women, believing Jew and believing Gentile. Together these two women make up one Bride, the New Jerusalem, with a foundation made of twelve Apostles and gates made of twelve tribes…ONE Bride. God does not have a spiritual Bride and a natural bride.

  • toddott wrote:

    Where does it say the Church will be removed from this earth during this trial? The Church will be guarded in the same way that Israel was kept safe during the plagues.

    I think you should read your Bible more carefully.

    Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)

    The word for “from” is ἐκ, ἐξ (ek ex) from which the English word “exit” comes from. It means that the saints will exit (be removed out of) the world to somewhere else and not, as you said, be gaurded in the same way that Israel was kept safe during the plagues. In fact, God does NOT promise that He is going to keep the saints safely in the tribulation. He says the very opposite.

    And it was given unto him (Antichrist) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:7)

    Who are these saint? They are not the Jews and the Gentiles who come to the knowledge of salvation in the church age. They are Jews and Gentiles who are going to be saved during the tribulation.

    Precious few saints who are going to be saved during the tribulation are going to escape the guillotine of the Antichrist. Most of them are going to lose their heads. What kind of divine safekeeping is that? In fact, your view is a denial of Revelation 20:4.

    Jesus is not a polygamist who has two brides. He has one bride.

    For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Co 12:13)

    Yes, you say that there is one bride but you cannot say He is married to two women. You are contradicting yourself. The one body is one bride and NOT two women.

  • toddott wrote:

    The labor of the Church begins at the fifth seal, with persecution after the Abomination that causes desolation.

    The tribulation is the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble and NOT the church.

    The entire series of seals, trumpets and bowls are all part and parcel of the seven year tribulation and NOT the church age.

    The wrath spoken of during the tribulation is not wrath from men, nor from Satan, except as God may use these agencies as channels for the execution of His will; it is tribulation from God.

    Isaiah 24:1; Joel 1:15; Zephaniah 1:18; Revelation 6:16-17; Revelation 11:18; Revelation 14:7; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 14:19; Revelation 15:4; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:1; Revelation 16:7; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:1-2).

    The first great purpose of the tribulation is to prepare the nation of Israel (not the church) for her Messiah. The prophecy of Jeremiah (30:7) makes it very clear that this time that is coming has particular reference to Israel (NOT the church) for it is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” (NOT the church).

    Paul clearly taught a Pre-Trib Rapture (1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18). In verse 18 he wrote: “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” What kind of comfort do you have for the saints when you tell them they will be guarded and kept safe during the entire tribulation whilst the Bible teaches the exact opposite? (Revelation 13:7).

  • Vanessa

    @Toddott you quote ( The Bible says that those things that happened to Israel are type/examples and warnings for us on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.” – May i have chapter and verse of the Bible please.

    God required a price to be paid for sin. Jesus paid it for each and every one of us through His journey to the cross. His sacrifice made on behalf of all of us is why those of us who believe in Him will someday be gathered around His throne in heaven as seen in Revelation 7:12 saying, “Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.” The church has obviously been raptured before Revelation 7:12 in this case if they are seen singing around the throne.

    The 24 Elders are redeemed from the earth, yet the word says that no man has been in heaven. John 3 verse 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Why are these redeemed elders then seen in heaven? long before the end of the tribulation or even mid trib.

    Nobody knows if there is a gap between the rapture and the start of the tribulation so speculating has been the order of the day. Its great to debate it and often when we do we get further insight to unanswered questions which is how the Holy Spirit works with us.

    There is no mention of the Angels marking the church during the tribulation. Only the 144 thousand are marked to protect them. Why not the church as well if we are here.? We know the wicked take a mark as well but somehow we are not mentioned. Is it because we have been raptured. Obviously

    Lastly. Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

    This verse speaks of Gods love to us. For me it’s a precious promise that I wont be going through the tribulation, being a love letter full of hope and joy.

    Imagine a earthly groom allowing his bride to witness the same horrors that are coming soon to the world. The earthquake alone will be so great that islands and mountains will be moved. Never mind the satanic raping of men, woman and children. The starvation, and the torment of the demons. Yet so many Christians nod their heads and say “yes Jesus will let you experience this but will protect. Makes no sense.

  • Lou

    Please Google “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Stealth” and “Pretrib Rapture Pride.”

  • Lou

    Dave MacPherson’s arguments to refute the Pre-Trib Rapture is old hat. Find something new and original. Maybe you should rather read your Bible and stop listening to people who hate the Parousia of Jesus Christ.

    Read this.

    TBC Staff

    Jun 1 1995
    Question: I’ve recently read documentation showing that the pretrib Rapture theory originated with a Jesuit priest, Emmanuel Lacunza, in the late 1700s, was picked up by an Edward Irving of Scotland (who translated Lacunza’s lengthy book from Spanish in 1826), and from Irving spread via a Margaret MacDonald to J. N. Darby and C. I. Scofield, who popularized it. Aren’t you embarrassed to teach a doctrine that originated with a Jesuit?

    Response: The alleged Lacunza-Irving-MacDonald connection to Darby and Scofield has not been proved. Moreover, such speculation by MacPherson and others is pointless. Who cares where Darby and Scofield first got the idea of a pretrib Rapture? All that matters is what the Bible has to say on this subject!

    I was taught a pretrib Rapture from childhood—not from the writings of Darby or Scofield, but from the Bible. As a Berean, I would not accept any belief were I not convinced that it was biblical. I hold to a pretrib Rapture because the Bible teaches it. I challenge you to check How Close Are We? against the Bible.

    Furthermore, the claim that the pretrib Rapture was unknown in the church prior to Lacunza and Darby is not true. A sermon of uncertain authorship dating to at least the sixth century clearly presents the pretrib position. Titles “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” it declares, “All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.” For more information contact the Pre-Trib Research Center.

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