Pre-Trib Rapture vs Post-Trib Rapture

Tom (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded in 2008. Tom Lessing originally founded the website “Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray”. Tom Lessing joined Discerning the World in May 2013 and all his articles were moved across to DTW.

13 Responses

  1. Wickus says:

    Excellent article!! Just love it!! Keep up the good work!!!

  2. Douglas Krieger says:

    You really should join our [removed] incessant debate between Pre-Tribbers and Post-tribbers – you might jolly well learn something…not to sound condescending; however, there are few forums–almost none–which encourage and permit both sides of this debate – we do. There are over 5,000 members.

    [Edited: Tom says he has been to your ‘both sides allowed’ debating forums and all sides are not welcome, if you disagree or ask to many pressing questions that can’t be answered you are kicked off]

  3. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Dear Douglas

    Not to sound condescending but you might jolly well just learn something here too, so please speak your mind right here and now why don’t you…and lets debate.

  4. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    UPDATE:

    Tom tried to comment on Scott Puitts website and guess what? Scott told Tom to stop slandering him and promptly deleted his comments. Scott Pruitt said on Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:20 PM, “You leave a comment on my blog with a link back to your own site which is an article that slanders myself and others” So much for debate. Scott refuses to come here to debate because he wont agree to our commenting terms and conditions – which only protects us from evil doers and in no way harms the person who is commenting one bit. Should we be afraid that he has intentions to harm DTW in any way that he wont agree to our terms when it comes to commenting? One can only imagine what’s going on in his mind.

    I emailed Scott the following email:

    —————————-

    From: Discerning the World
    Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 6:53 PM
    To: ‘nopretrib’
    Cc: ‘Tom’
    Subject: RE: Linking To Your Blog

    Dear Scott

    Our lengthy rules are for those people (and they know who they are because of the spirit that resides in them) who go out of their way to insult us and try hurt us via other means like hacking our website or trying to take us to court. If you have a problem agreeing to our rules then it makes me wonder what you have planned up your sleeve. But I will leave it at that because I pray you are a kind Christian who has no intention of hurting us in any way.

    But just to let you know, we state in the rules that we allow 99% of all comments on the website and we argue with biblical rebuttals. We don’t resort to name calling and the like [like] your dear friend Mr Prasch does. We do it the biblical way and preach the word of God and debate in that manner. Things get heated on DTW and when they do we don’t go and delete their comments we debate back, because we know what we stand for.

    We slander you? Lol. Scott let me remind you – showing someone that they preach false teaching is NOT slandering or hate speech. Name calling like ‘you demonised woman from hell’, that kinda thing is slandering. Ok? I hope you understand now the difference and won’t be so silly as to use that again as your excuse to anyone for not answering biblical questions.

    And that was said with much love to you :)

    Kind regards
    Deborah.
    —————————-

  5. Faan Oosthuizen says:

    Regarding the pre- and post trib debate:
    The disciples were also once caught up in a similar mind and debate.
    Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
    Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    They were concerned about the physical and the future things.
    On both occasions Jesus rebuked them sharply and even forbid them, for it is none of their business. Other issues are there business.
    Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    Jesus gave the alternative to be concerned with:
    “believe all that the prophets have spoken:” Those who do not do that, are fools, inconsiderate, (onverstandig), slow of heart to believe.
    Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    This is what we need and must seek to find.

    Paul also rebuked those going up into such things and arguments and pointed them to what they need to be concerned with. :
    Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
    1Ti 1:3-7 As I besought thee …. that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end / goal of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
    1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
    1Ti 6:3-6 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain.
    Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
    One who does not live and teach Jesus’ words and godliness but rather keep himself busy with many other issues and arguments, is proud, knows nothing, etc.

    NO HOLINESS, NO HEAVEN:
    Heb 12:14 Follow / persue / press toward peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
    What we think or believe about the rapture or tribulation will not help at all.

    MOST IMPORTANT MATTER:
    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
    Jesus bore our sins in His body. Our sins made those wounds in His body and heart. We remain His martyrs and murderers and grieve and quench God’s Holy Spirit if we do not live holy lives and if we continue in sin. Therefore, the soul that sins will surely die.
    Jesus bore our sins as wounds to show us how hurtful, evil and inexcusable sins are – that we may repent, confess it and DIE TO SIN, STOP WITH SIN, LIVE FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS AND BE HEALED BY HIS WOUNDS – that we may be saved from condemnation and hell. When one sees this, there is not much use in all these other issues, but to live holy, with a pure heart, with a pure conscience, unfeigned faith. Finding this is GREAT GAIN and to help others then finding it. And whenever the tribulation and rapture will be, it does not matter for we will be OK that day – if we have a pure and holy heart. And THAT is what Jesus came for.
    SELA.

  6. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Dear Faan

    Based on a previous comment you wrote on this site where you basically said that spending time talking about false teaching is a waste of time. I will ask you this.

    So when Jude said the following:

      Jude 1:3-4
      3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write to you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write to you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.
      4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Would you have told Jude to keep quiet, because he sounds like a clanging symbol? Or would you have listened to his dire warning for the church?

    Barnes says:
    That ye should earnestly contend – Compare Gal 2:5. The word here rendered “earnestly contend” – ἐπαγωνίζεσθαι epagōnizesthai – is one of those words used by the sacred writers which have allusion to the Grecian games. Compare the notes, 1Co 9:24, following. This word does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. It means “to contend upon” – i. e., “for or about” anything; and would be applicable to the earnest effort put forth in those games to obtain the prize. The reference here, of course, is only to contention by argument, by reasoning, by holding fast the principles of religion, and maintaining them against all opposers. It would not justify “contention” by arms, by violence, or by persecution…”

    Do you see that Faan, you contend for the faith through argument and by reasoning, by holding fast the Gospel and maintaining them against opposers = this is called biblical debating.

    You said “Jesus gave the alternative to be concerned with: “believe all that the prophets have spoken:” Those who do not do that, are fools, inconsiderate, (onverstandig), slow of heart to believe.”

    Well right you are, BELIEVE all that the Prophets, Apostles, Disciples BELIEVED and spoke in the Word of God, in fact believe ALL that Jesus spoke about too. One of those things was THE BLESSED HOPE:

    Titus 2:13
    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;

    Barnes says
    Looking for – Expecting; waiting for. That is, in the faithful performance of our duties to ourselves, to our fellow-creatures, and to God, we are patiently to wait for the coming of our Lord.
    (1) We are to believe that he will return;
    (2) We are to be in a posture of expectation, not knowing when he will come; and,
    (3) We are to be ready for him whenever he shall come; see the Mat 24:42-44 notes; 1Th 5:4 note; Phi 3:20 note.
    That blessed hope – The fulfillment of that hope so full of blessedness to us.

    You said “NO HOLINESS, NO HEAVEN: Heb 12:14 Follow / persue / press toward peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
    What we think or believe about the rapture or tribulation will not help at all.”

    Do you realise that holiness only comes from being born again, you can’t attain holiness by yourself, only through the Holy Spirit working in your life. So all BORN AGAIN Christians who will be in different stages of holiness in their lives will be taken up in a pre-trib rapture to meet Jesus Christ in the air. And in fact what you do believe or think about the rapture or imminent return of Jesus is important because without faith in Jesus Christ and His Word you are treading on the borderline of disbelief:

      Revelation 3:10-11
      10 Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come on all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth.
      11 Behold, I come hold that fast which you have, that no man take your crown

    You said laslty “And whenever the tribulation and rapture will be, it does not matter for we will be OK that day – if we have a pure and holy heart.”

    I am so happy to hear that, I hope you wont be upset and complain when Jesus comes to take you up in a pre-trib rapture :)

  7. Hi Faan,

    So, you are not at all interested in the return of our Lord Jesus Christ at the pre-Trib Rapture? You would rather have false teachers, like Rick Warren and company, tell you Jesus “rebuked his disciples very sharply when they asked Him when He was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel.” He did not scold or rebuke them. He merely corrected their misunderstanding of his return.

    You wrote:

    MOST IMPORTANT MATTER:
    1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
    Jesus bore our sins in His body. Our sins made those wounds in His body and heart. We remain His martyrs and murderers and grieve and quench God’s Holy Spirit if we do not live holy lives and if we continue in sin. Therefore, the soul that sins will surely die.
    Jesus bore our sins as wounds to show us how hurtful, evil and inexcusable sins are – that we may repent, confess it and DIE TO SIN, STOP WITH SIN, LIVE FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS AND BE HEALED BY HIS WOUNDS – that we may be saved from condemnation and hell. When one sees this, there is not much use in all these other issues, but to live holy, with a pure heart, with a pure conscience, unfeigned faith. Finding this is GREAT GAIN and to help others then finding it. And whenever the tribulation and rapture will be, it does not matter for we will be OK that day – if we have a pure and holy heart. And THAT is what Jesus came for.
    SELA.

    I fully agree. However wouldn’t you say that the best incentive for living a holy life unto the Lord is is return at the Pre-Trib Rapture? Knowing that it could happen at any moment is the best incentive their can be, don’t you think? Those who teach otherwise are taking away and robbing saints of this particular incentive for holy living.

  8. One of the main traits of false teachers is their ability to go into their “Oh, I feel so sorry for myself” mode whenever you expose them and command them to stop spreading their false doctrines (1 Timothy 1:3). They just love to call it “character assassination.” They are more concerned about their own lily-white characters, positions in society, ministries etc. than what they are about Jesus Christ and his doctrines. It OK to vilify and misrepresent Jesus Christ and his doctrines but a mortal sin to contend for the faith. That’s why, when you contend for the faith as we are told to do in Scripture, they always see it as a personal attack and not as a rebuke to repent of their false teachings. “Boo hoo, stop slandering me. Booh hoo hoo, stop calling me dishonest and a liar. That’s so unloving an unchristlike.”

    In one of the many comments I wrote on their video channel “Left Behind or Led Astray,” which, by the way, were all summarily deleted in the same way Scott Pruitt deleted my comments on his blog “No Pre-Trib” I said the following.

    Hey, you guys. How do you propose to stay faithful to Jesus Christ during the seven-year tribulation when you whine, snivel, cry, moan, gripe, whimper and feel sorry for yourselves when someone calls you dishonest and liars and you’re not even in the tribulation yet? You’d better learn to taken it like real men otherwise you won’t make it during the tribulation. The fact that you are so upset, proves that you are not ready yet for the tribulation. Why didn’t you rather make a DVD to sound a word of gratitude to Paul Wilkinson because he is being instrumental in your receiving rewards in heaven one day. Be glad and rejoice and make another DVD in which you thank Paul Wilkinson for calling you dishonest and liars rather than vilifying him.

    Jacob Prasch accused Paul Wilkinson of whimpering, whining and whinging when he himself used inflammatory language while making facial expressions of anger, resentment, umbrage and what not. I wrote the following comment:

    And speaking of emotionalism. You only need to watch yourself on this video with facial expressions that are so characteristic of Hollywood movies, to see what Oscar winning emotionalism looks like.”

  9. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Tom

    You said “Hey, you guys. How do you propose to stay faithful to Jesus Christ during the seven-year tribulation when you whine, snivel, cry, moan, gripe, whimper and feel sorry for yourselves when someone calls you dishonest and liars and you’re not even in the tribulation yet? You’d better learn to taken it like real men otherwise you won’t make it during the tribulation. The fact that you are so upset, proves that you are not ready yet for the tribulation. Why didn’t you rather make a DVD to sound a word of gratitude to Paul Wilkinson because he is being instrumental in your receiving rewards in heaven one day. Be glad and rejoice and make another DVD in which you thank Paul Wilkinson for calling you dishonest and liars rather than vilifying him.”

    Oh my goodness that is sooo true!!! And he deleted that comment? wow. If this is how they carry on then someone questions their belief on the rapture can you just imagine what they will do when they are tortured during the Tribulation to give up their faith entirely. Commenting or writing an article questioning someones belief in NoPreTrib can in no way be compared to being physically tortured. And it is Scott Pruitt and friends that believe they, the pastors need to prepare the church to go through the Trib? Oh my word I can’t help but giggle just a little.

  10. Debs

    Yep, it shows you how deeply concerned they are to prepare others for the tribulation while they are unprepared themselves. Indeed, it makes you giggle a little.

  11. PreTrib says:

    Awesome article Tom, keep it up, thank you.

  12. Thank you for your kind comment, PreTrib.

  13. Anna says:

    I have been so mixed up with this topic about the rapture. There is just so much attack against the pre-trib, which is the one I lean towards to. Even if this is not a doctrine for salvation, I think it is important. I used to be in the new age movement, and they have been preparing to explain the rapture as an UFO invasion or a dimensional shift where us Christians, as unevolved spiritual beings who did not embrace the age of aquarious and meditation and yoga etc etc need to be removed from the planet Laugh/

    I also wonder how on earth would someone prepare for the tribulation. I mean… saving food ? buying a bunker ? false teachers like Jim Bakker and Steve Quayle seem to be making a lot of money from fear mongering. Now, let´s think about those Christians who are poor. How will they endure to the end ? buying a 100,000 dollars bunker? they only have money to live by the day !! It does not make any sense to me, I do not think God would want us to “prepare” for the tribulation, because not all Christians have the same situation financially to do so.

    I have also noticed is is mostly false Christians, false teachers who go against the pre-trib, and people who is affiliated to the Jesuits and the Catholic church. Although some say the pre-trib comes from the Jesuits… the doctrine of the Catholics cannot accept a rapture, due to their beliefs in purgatory. So I guess their attacks are because they are linked to the Catholic church.

    I am not sure if this might happen soon or not. One needs to be prepared no matter what, because either raptured or simply by natural death, we do not know the day and the hour we will depart.

    Thanks for this article and blessings !

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Laugh/
Up/
 
Up/
Perfect/
 
Perfect/
Clap/
 
Clap/
Hi5/
 
Hi5/
Yahoo/
 
Yahoo/
Think/
 
Think/
Wait/
 
Wait/
Check/
 
Check/
Read/
 
Read/
Better/
 
Better/
Cry/
 
Cry/
Sorry/
 
Sorry/
Shock/
 
Shock/
Faint/
 
Faint/
Ohno/
 
Ohno/
Scratch/
 
Scratch/
Unsure/
 
Unsure/
Dazed/
 
Dazed/
Thank/
 
Thank/
 
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