Margaret MacDonald’s Vision: Pre-Trib? Really?

Margaret MacDonald's visionMargaret MacDonald’s Vision: Pre-Trib? Really?

I get a lot of emails and comments by people that believe there will be no pre-tribulation rapture and point me to the so called Pre-Trib vision by Margaret MacDonald that was made known by Dave MacPherson in his book called “The Incredible Cover-up”, pp. 151-157. 1975

Wikipedia says this about Margaret MacDonald

“Margaret MacDonald was born in 1815 in Port Glasgow, Scotland and died around 1840.[1] She lived with her two older brothers, James and George, both of whom ran a shipping business.[1] Beginning in 1826 and through 1829, a few preachers in Scotland emphasized that the world’s problems could only be addressed through an outbreak of supernatural gifts from the Holy Spirit.[2] In response, Isabella and Mary Campbell of the parish of Rosneath manifested charismatic experiences such as speaking in tongues. Around 1830, miraculous healings were reported through James Campbell, first of his sister Margaret MacDonald and then of Mary Campbell (through James’s letter to Mary).[3] Shortly thereafter James and George MacDonald manifested the speaking and interpretations of tongues, and soon others followed suit in prayer meetings. These charismatic experiences garnered major national attention. Many came to see and investigate these events. Some, such as Edward Irving and Henry Drummond, regarded these events as genuine displays from the Holy Spirit. Others, including John Nelson Darby and Benjamin Wills Newton, whom the Brethren sent on their behalf to investigate, came to the conclusion that these displays were demonic.[4]

Now there are many websites that have taken the vision of Margaret MacDonald and dissected it to say that it is a total Pre-Tribulational vision.  But when you actually take the time to find the entire vision and read through it you will get the surprise of your life.  It’s not the biblical Pre-Trib at all that Pre-Trbbers believe in, in fact it’s a Partial Pre-Trib rapture and a Post-Trib rapture.  Dave MacPherson’s book title called “The Incredible Cover-up” is indeed an incredible cover up, because Margaret MacDonald’s vision is not in it’s entirety Pre-trib it is in fact mostly Post-Trib.

Post-Tribbers should be up in arms by now. For years they have used this vision to try trash the biblical idea of a Pre-Trib Rapture by saying Margaret’s vision is demonic, etc., etc., (and we know that) yet there it is in black and white telling us that the church will go through the Tribulation to be raptured in the end.

Let’s have a look the Margaret MacDonald vision in its entirety shall we:

Margaret MacDonald’s utterance:

The first account of MacDonald’s utterance was published in 1840 in Norton’s Memoirs pp. 171-76, and the second account in 1861 in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets pp. 15-18. The two accounts were conflated by MacPherson in his book The Incredible Cover-up p. 151-54. The bold text below is from the first account:

It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just ‘no God.’ I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ’tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, ‘Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ ‘But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.’ This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels – this is the light to be kept burning – the light of God – that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. ‘Tis Christ in us that will lift us up – he is the light – ’tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities – now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known – now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up – it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God – I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing – so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived – This is the fiery trial which is to try us. – It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed – but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest – the love of many will wax cold.

I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive – for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work – he will have a counterpart for every part of God’s truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God – and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he – when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but ’tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit – have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan – be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.

When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it – they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross. I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been – the servants of God sealed in their foreheads – great conformity to Jesus – his holy holy image seen in his people – just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air – and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.” [ Emphasis added]

Let’s look at Margaret MacDonald’s vision point by point:

  • Margaret MacDonald says, “Tis Christ in us that will lift us up – he is the light – ’tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air……….now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified”….”Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ ‘But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.’ This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels – this is the light to be kept burning – the light of God – that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance
    • Now what this points too is a PARTIAL Pre-Trib Rapture (which is unbibical) because Margaret MacDonald alludes to the fact that only the super spiritual get taken up to meet Jesus in the air.  She uses the parable of the 10 virgins; those virgins with their lamps full are the supposedly Christians that make it into the Pre-Trib rapture and then there are those Christians with half full lamps who remain behind to face the AntiChrist.  See article here on 10 virgins which explains that the 10 Virgins parable is for Israel during the tribulation.
  • Margaret MacDonald says “I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived – This is the fiery trial which is to try us. – It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed – but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory.”
    • Here we can clearly see that this vision is also a Post-Trib Rapture.  Margaret MacDonald plainly states that the Bride of Christ will go through the Tribulation – it will be a fiery trial to purify the REAL members of the body of Christ.  Post-Tribulationists believe that they will be raptured to meet Jesus Christ in the air at His Second Advent and then quickly go to to the White Throne Judgement, get clothed in linens of righteousness, etc., and then do an immediate u-turn in mid air and follow Jesus Christ back down to earth as His army, where Jesus Christ defeats the Antichrist and the millennial kingdom begins.
  • Margaret MacDonald says “The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God – and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he – when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he.”
    • Here she totally confuses The Elect (Jews) and the Bride of Christ (that does contain Jews).  At the start of the tribulation God marks 144,000 Jews with power to do His preaching, they will evangelise the worldwide Jewish community along with the 2 witnesses Moses and Elijah who will be brought back to life (for 3 days) for the purpose of “restoring” the faith of Israel.  And at the beginning of the tribulation The Holy Spirit will be poured out on Israel and they will dream dreams and have visions. (Acts 2:17)
    • Only part of that Jewish community will respond in faith during the Tribulation, but this is preparing their hearts when they see Jesus Christ return at His second advent.
    • The 144,000 Jews that were chosen by God are martyred (Revelation 14:1-5)
  • Margaret MacDonald says: The trial of the Church is from Antichrist.”
    • And you just could not say it any clearer, THE ANTICHRIST WILL PERSECUTE THE CHURCH during the 7 year tribulation, of which another rapture will take place at Jesus’ Christ Second Coming.

Some other things I am also told about that will supposedly defeat the idea of a Pre-Trib Rapture right there on the spot:

Jesuit priest Lacunza

  • The idea of a Pre-Trib Rapture originated from a Jesuit priest Lacunza.
  • Lacunza a Jesuit priest wrote the “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty” around 1791.  Lacunza asserted that only those believers that partake of the sacrament of the Eucharist would be raptured.   So once again we do not have a biblical Pre-Trib Rapture, we have a Roman Catholic version.

Edward Irving

  • We then have Edward Irving (1792-1834) from the Plymoth Brethern who supposedly took the idea of a Pre-Trib rapture from the Jesuit Priest Lacunza and distributed it among the followers of his church called the Catholic Apostolic Church.
  • It was here in the Catholic Apostolic church that Margaret MacDonald spoke her vision.  Soon after that there where chaotic disturbances that arose during Irving’s services such as the ‘manifestation of gifts’ i.e., speaking in tongues etc.  Irving’s movement grew to such an extent that it became the basis of modern day Pentecostalism.  
  • However we must notice that Irving was indeed a Catholic.  A man by the name of Robert Norton published Margaret MacDonald’s visions and prophecies in a book entitled, “The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic Apostolic Church” (London, 1861)  See article here on Vatican II Evangelization program:
  • All the chaos in Irving’s church culminated in the ultimate result of Irving’s dismissal from the Catholic Apostolic Church, which still exists until this day.

Tim Lahaye, writer of “Those left behind” is a Freemason/Rosicrucian

  • Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey etc., etc., etc,. too promote the idea of a Pre-Trib Rapture and because they do, now we need to drop everything that we have read from Scripture and immediately believe there is no Pre-Trib Rapture because Tim Lahaye and Hal Lindsey believe in it.  Well lets reverse the idea for a second, who are those that believes a Rapture will only take place at Jesus’ Second Advent? Let’s name them shall we:  The Roman Catholic church, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormons, Jehovah’s Whitnesses and our ever so friendly Calvinists  of which a small percentage are Pre-Trib, but mostly Amillennial.

Notes: [Extra notes regarding Margaret MacDonald vision]

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Bro. Nick

Just because there are more and more folks that call themselves ‘Christians’ that have made the choice to believe that there is NO ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’
– that does not mean that ‘the pre-tribulation Rapture’ doctrine is not “the truth” Biblically.
– it does mean that there are more and ever-more other folks that have chosen to deny the ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’ – which in itself is an ‘in progress’ fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy of 2 Peter 3:3-4 [KJV]
– and they are choosing to look for the coming of “that antichrist”:
“Little children, it is the last time:
and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
even now are there many antichrists;
whereby we know that it is the last time.
They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
(1 John 2:18-19 ~ KJV)

It is my Biblical understanding that this this denial and mis-understanding of true Biblical Prophecy is very much like what occurred before, when ‘the Jewish religious leaders’ and the majority of their followers – the ‘religious crowd’ of nearly 2,000 years ago
– they also did not believe the Biblical Prophesies were being fulfilled – that “the Lord Jesus Christ” was actually the “Messiah” that they were supposed to be looking for when He came the first time.

It is also interesting that there are constantly more and more people that call themselves ‘Christians’ that are choosing to condemn those of us that have read, studied, and prayed for “the Holy Ghost” to give us His understanding of what “the certainty of the words of truth” that are written in “the word of the Lord” do say and mean – and have come “by faith” to believe in the ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’

My personal Biblical understanding of why there is such an ever increasing denial of, and animosity against those few and ever-fewer of us who believe in the ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’ in these increasingly ‘spiritually black’ ‘end times’ is because of the constantly and evermore rapidly increasing ‘spiritual confusion – delusions – deceptions – deliberate deceit – and wickedness’ being deliberately caused by the constantly increasing number of “fal$e teacher$$$$$$” and ‘Fal$e Profit$$$$$$’ – the ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’ that call themselves ‘Christians’
– and there are more and more frequent statements of animosity – and sometimes even sheer hatred against those few of us who are actually looking for the Biblical “blessed hope” of “the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” – which is the ‘in progress fulfillment’ of the Biblical Prophecy that is WARNED would happen in these ‘end times’:
“Knowing this first,
that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
(2 Peter 3:3-4 ~ KJV)

I heard a Biblically sound Pastor recently make the statement along the lines that – the world has now gone insane – as it is referred to in “the word of truth”:
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”
(2 Timothy 2:13 ~ KJV)

Yet – how very few folks that call themselves ‘Christians’ there are that truly and continually believe the BIBLICAL WARNING about the total and utter malevolent evil, hatred, “wiles”, and “subtilty” against all mankind by “Lucifer”, “the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan” – for it is written in “the word of the Lord that he is “full of all subtilty and all mischief”, and he will never “cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord” – and that the Devil has much knowledge, wisdom, cunning, and “subtilty” – “after the flesh” – so much so that only “the Lord Jesus Christ” knew that “Judas Iscariot” was “the son of perdition”

Those very few who are truly Biblically “born again” believers and followers of “the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” must increasingly be Biblically spiritually vigilant in these increasingly ‘spiritually black’ end times of constant exponential increases of Satanic inspired and led attacks – about which I recently read a comment that was along the lines of
– ‘You Christians are in a full scale war – and you don’t even know it!
You are being attacked by the evil powers of darkness through spells – and incantations – and musick – and symbols – and colours – and ‘verbal $emantic$’
– yet you do not even know what is going on… because you are playing church!
You will not read, study, or really believe “the certainty of the words of truth” that are written in the Holy Bible [KJV]
– while Satan is going for your jugular vein!’

Yet how few there are that obey the Biblical command:
“Be sober, be vigilant;
because your adversary the devil,
as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(1 Peter 5:8 ~ KJV)

Every one who is truly a ‘Biblical CHRISTian’ should read – and believe – and heed that which “our beloved brother Paul” WARNED about in “the word of the Lord”:
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel;
for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
whose end shall be according to their works.”
(2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ~ KJV)

How I personally give thanks unto “the Lord God Almighty” for each of the fewer and ever-fewer Biblically sound Preachers, Teachers, and ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ that continue to ‘stand firm’ – and have the courage to tell the very few who truly are ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ that will listen
– that we truly do have “that blessed hope” which is Biblically promised in Titus 2:13 [KJV] – that we will be ‘Raptured’ from the coming wrath of “the LORD JEHOVAH” – which will occur only during the 7 years of “the time of Jacob’s trouble” – the “great tribulation”
– it is also my Biblical understanding that the ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’ will only occur because of the Continuous Wondrous Mercy and Grace of “the Lord God Almighty” unto those who are truly ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ ~ His true “church” ! ! !

Personally – I have spent some time reading, studying, praying for understanding of “the certainty of the words of truth” to be given me by “the Holy Ghost”, Biblically meditating upon, and learning more verses that are written in “the word of the Lord”, as they have been Divinely preserved in the Holy Bible [KJV]
– This has resulted in my coming “by faith” to be more and more a believer in the Biblical doctrine of the ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’ of “THE CHURCH”:
not by sight:)”
(2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ KJV)

AND coming to greater realization that:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
(Hebrews 11:1 ~ KJV)

– I set no dates – BUT I AM continually:
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”
(Titus 2:13 ~ KJV)

– and my personal prayer every day is – Perhaps today dear Lord ? ? ? – PERHAPS TODAY DEAR LORD ! ! !

And I personally now “know the certainty of the words of truth” ~ that one day will be ‘THE DAY’ ~ for “the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” hath personally said:
“Be ye therefore ready also:
for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”
(Luke 12:40 ~ KJV)

How many have ever considered that ONLY the Apostle Paul uses the specific word “TRUMP” [KJV] – and ONLY two times:
“In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
(1 Corinthians 15:52 ~ KJV)

~ with no ‘signs’ ~ BUT WITH PRECISE SOUNDS:
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT,
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together WITH them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be WITH THE LORD.
Wherefore COMFORT ONE ANOTHER with these words.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 ~ KJV)

“He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be WITH you all.
(Revelation 22:20-21 ~ KJV)

~ CAPITALization and emphasis of “the words of the Lord” as they are Divinely preserved in the Holy Bible [KJV] are mine – Bro. Nick


Dear Thomas and Deborah

I thank Abba for your blog – it is so needed in the days we’re living in.

I have a question please.

Friends of mine who are really saved and born again do not believe in the rapture at all – will they be part of the rapture?

Thank you in advance – I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Much love


Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Hi Sansha,

Indeed, your friends will be part of the Pre-trib Rapture whether they believe in it or not. However, they will forfeit the reward in 2 Timothy 4:8

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

They cannot love his appearing when they reject his appearing at the Pre-Trib Rapture.


It certainly sounds like some group of people are taken according to Revelation. The Church of Philadelphia ring a bell? It makes me cry when I read the passage. Revelation 3:10, BLISS.

But the Laodiceans don’t have such luck. I’m betting they’re a mixture of Christians consisting of those who don’t really care all that much and those who didn’t make much effort in overcoming sins :(

Then the Elect 144,000, they stand with Christ on Zion. Based on their description, those are young men (not all the believers) who are ready and willing to do as Christ (and ONLY Christ) warrants. That they don’t belong to women, aren’t defiled by them, is a curious note. It’s almost as if 100 AD the way men would be at the end of time would be was known. Young men would be obsessed with how to get famous so they can have any woman they want…

But the ELECT don’t want to know about the fads and stupors of corrupt society. They want to do God’s will, but there’s too much confusion in the religious arenas. They’re not defiled with women, CHURCHES is another interpretation. They don’t hold to doctrines or to teachers. (not to say they don’t use them)

“You will long for the words of a prophet but will not find them,” Jesus told us regarding the end times. FULFILLED! You’ve noticed for the last few decades how people have desperately sought all manners of people claiming divinity and truths? It’s not restricted to Christianity either. Even when I was into eastern mysticism I incessantly craved someone who had the answers. Christ does but no one today.

Back to the rapture. What else though about those caught up in the air? Jesus did say a lot of the intense signs of the end, the tribulation itself (the stars would be shaken!) would occur THEN the trumpet would sound and the angels would gather the elect from all over the world. This would concord with Paul when he said we’d be caught up in the air with Lord. NOTICE he said “those of us who are alive and remaining,” does appear to be a group of people who survived great destruction.

Hmm, so that contradicts the Elect in Revelation? Unless the signs Jesus mentioned don’t necessarily have to be in chronological order. For the sake of the elect the days would be shortened… he said that would be so because no flesh would be saved.

I wonder if that could hold two meanings. Obviously the next great war will be an earth buster. No flesh would survive. But what about spiritually? After all, Christ isn’t as concerned with our physical livelihoods as he is our souls. What if humanity would reach the point where the soul itself could no be saved because sin was so rampant (not violence exactly, but disturbances, false doctrines, doubts, lusts, greed, covetousness, etc.)? I think we’ve reached such a time.

Truly, you can’t even trust a commune. A religious community could be a cult. You can barely search online for example for inspiration in God without encountering wicked propaganda. Imagine someone trying to move toward Christ then a powerful intellectual “authority” is giving SURE reasons why Jesus never existed, all on youtube.

Life today is so much easier yet so much worse than ever, lol. Am I presumptuous in declaring the upcoming generation, really, will there be a basis for sound doctrine, for a life of faith, and for the possibility of salvation in as little as ten years?

It’s getting VERY difficult to open someone’s ears now, no?


Interesting blog. Here are my observations:
(1) You’re right that Margaret was a partial rapturist. Dr. John Walvoord, the longtime No. 1 pretrib authority, says in several of his books (in his chapter on “the partial rapture theory”) that partial rapturists are “pretribulationists.” In lines 58-63 Margaret is looking for “one taken and the other left” BEFORE the “WICKED” (Antichrist) is “revealed.” Partial rapturism teaches that just PART of the church is raptured before the trib and that the rest of the church goes through the trib. Google “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart” for more info. Her line “The trial of the Church is from Antichrist” refers to “church” members left behind to be purified. All partial rapturists talk this way. (2) Re Lacunza, Google “The Real Manuel Lacunza” and “Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture.” (3) Somehow you mixed up Irving (who was with the Catholic Apostolic Church) with Darby (who was with the Plymouth Brethren). (4) Other great Google articles touching on the true facts of pretrib rapture history: “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “Darby Did Not Invent the Rapture,” “Pretrib Was New in the 1830s,” “C. I. Scofield’s Hidden Side,” “Greatest Hebrew-Christian Scholars Not Pretrib,” “Pretrib Rapture: how WHAT becomes WHEN,” “CAUTION: Dangerous Ice,” “”Pretrib Rapture Pride,” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Hal Lindsey’s Dating Brings Troubles,” “Jerry Jenkins: Betting on Pretrib!,” “LaHaye’s Temperament,” “Hal Lindsey’s Pretrib Rapture Proof,” and “Prof. Wm. L. Craig Leaves Tim LaHaye Behind.” Those who think that journalist Dave MacPherson’s decades of research on pretrib beginnings is unscholarly should Google “Scholars Weigh My Research” and “Left Behind or Led Astray?” (a shocking new video). God bless you all.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)


Of what does the tribulation purify the saints who are going to remain behind – sin or something else similar to sin? Wouldn’t you say the blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse (purify) us of ALL sin? The notion that some saints will go through the tribulation to purify them is an outright denial that the blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to cleanse us of all sin. It is another Gospel and very dangerous. At any rate, the Bride of Christ is a single body. He will never allow his body (Bride) to be severed into two separate pieces, the one escaping the tribulation and the other going through it? Two very important events are going to take place after the Pretribulation rapture – the Bema seat judgment and the wedding of the Lamb. The belief that a part of his Bride is going to stand in his presence at the wedding whilst the other part suffers the pangs of the tribulation to allegedly purify her is utter rubbish.


Tom, one great deserves another great; the great falling away deserves the great tribulation. Ice and some others wrongfully claim that the “falling away” in II Thess. 2 is the pretrib rapture! Google “Walvoord Melts Ice” to see what the top pretrib expert says. Yes, the Bride is a single body, but there can be cancers within a single physical body – and there were trouble makers and false brethren in the early church. Jesus says He will have a church without spot or wrinkle, and whom the Lord loves He chastens. If you are shockproof, Google “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” and “Pretrib Hypocrisy.” (By the way, why does the wedding of the Lamb take place in Rev. 19 if a pretrib rapture reportedly happens many chapters earlier?) Lord bless. Lou

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Lou wrote:

Tom, one great deserves another great; the great falling away deserves the great tribulation.

This is what’s generally called bad hermeneutics. First of all, the term “great falling away” never once appears in the Bible. If the “great falling away” were to deserve the “great tribulation,” as you said, Jesus would at least have defined the “great falling away” as “For then shall be a great falling away, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Mat 24:21).

For it (the falling away) to justify the great tribulation, as you said, it too must be something “such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” If you can prove to me that there has never been any fallings away or great fallings away since the beginning of the world, I shall change my view on the Rapture. Why hasn’t there been any great tribulations subsequent to these great fallings away?

The majority of Christians interpret “apostasia” as being a falling away from the faith of all those who profess to be Christians, i.e. the tares which look like the real McCoy (wheat) but do not bear the fruit of the Spirit. This seems to be highly improbable because there have been many great apostasies (fallings away from the faith) since the beginning of time.

Cain’s apostasy and murder of his brother Abel became the template, if you will, of how and why so many apostasies occurred throughout mankind’s history (Jude 1:11). He refused to accept God’s way of salvation by virtue of the shedding of the blood of an innocent victim (Hebrews 9:22) and dared to present God with his own sweat and toil (good works) to gain his approval for salvation.

The Roman Catholic Church became the main promoter of this abominable system of salvation. The biggest falling away that impacted the world in a most profound way was when Emperor Constantine supposedly converted to Christianity (not Jesus Christ) in 313 AD, put an end to persecution and established a church which began to flex its political muscle in world affairs. He took on himself the title of Pontifex Maximus (Greatest Bridge Builder; also the meaning of the office of today’s Pope) and presided over the church as Bishop of Rome. Later he moved to the East and established his permanent seat of rule in Byzantium (now Istanbul).

True born-again Christians, who became the victims of the new Roman Church during the early Crusades and later during the Albigensian Crusades (1208 and 1226), and during the butchering of 900 000 Waldensian Christians (1540-1570), to name but a few, had every reason to believe that the falling away of professing Christians in the Roman fold heralded the beginning of the seven-year tribulation. The question is – did they? I think not.

Why would God wait until the falling away from the faith of professing Christians which has been going on for centuries when the apostasy phenomenon has been part and parcel of church history since the very beginning of the world?
I am not interested in what the top Pre-trib experts say on the Rapture. The Word of God is to me the final authority on the Rapture.

Lou wrote:

Yes, the Bride is a single body, but there can be cancers within a single physical body – and there were trouble makers and false brethren in the early church. Jesus says He will have a church without spot or wrinkle, and whom the Lord loves He chastens.

There is a vast difference between “chasten” “wrath” and “judgment.” The entire seven-year tribulation shall be a time when God is going to pour out his wrath and judgments on the “inhabitants of the earth” (“them that dwell on the earth) and not the Bride of Christ.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)
The wrath and judgment of God are always mentioned in connection with unbelievers, never the Bride of Christ. Moreover, the Bride of Christ is never called “earth dwellers” or “them that dwell on the earth.”
Romans 8:1 Amplified Bible (AMP)

8 Therefore there is now no condemnation [no guilty verdict, no punishment] for those who are in Christ Jesus [who believe in Him as personal Lord and Savior].

By the way, what do mean by “cancers?” Are you referring to sin? If so then we all have cancers in us because —

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 Jn 1:8-10).

However, if “cancers” are false doctrines then this passage is appropriate.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God (is not saved). He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son (is truly saved). (2 Jn 1:9).

I don’t see how chastisement during the seven-year tribulation can purify cancerous saints. It sounds like the abominable RCC doctrine of Purgatory. Only Jesus’ blood can purify one from these things. To suggest that tribulation can purify one from sin and false doctrine is as bad as trampling on the blood of Christ.

By the way read this article to see how Dave MacPherson misleads his readers.

Lou wrote:

(By the way, why does the wedding of the Lamb take place in Rev. 19 if a pretrib rapture reportedly happens many chapters earlier?).

Let us then look at Revelation 19:7-8 in which the Marriage of the Lamb is mentioned.

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:6-8)

There are several things we need to take into account in order to understand this passage.

1) “is come does not mean that when Jesus returns at his Second Advent that the marriage will take place then. The word for “is come” is “erchomai” and refers to an already accomplished act, not something to occur at that particular moment when He returns. In other words, when He returns the marriage will already have been consummated.
2) Yet unmarried women are never called “wife.” Any reliable dictionary tells you that a wife is a married woman. Your interpretation makes marriage look silly. In fact, you are saying that when Jesus returns He is going to marry his already betrothed wife. Really?
3) Therefore, the wife must be someone else other than Christ’s Bride. Voila, here again the Bible provides the answer. The nation Israel is unlikely to be the Lamb’s bride because she has already been wed. God the Father is Israel’s husband.

“Return, O backsliding children,” says the Lord; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.” (Jer. 3:14).

“They say, ‘If a man divorces his wife, and she goes from him and becomes another man’s, may he return to her again?’ Would not that land be greatly polluted? But you have played the harlot with many lovers; yet return to Me,” says the Lord. (Jer. 3:1).

So the only reasonable conclusion we can make, is that the “wife” in Revelation 19 is God the Father’s wife to whom Jesus is going to return, and who needs to make herself ready so that she may be permitted to take part in the wedding supper or feast here on earth (Millennium) . The Parable of the five wise and five foolish virgins attest to this fact. So too does the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, and even more so John the Baptist’s (a Jew’s) words in John 3,

“He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.” (Joh 3:29).

There are a few other reasons why the marriage cannot take place the moment Jesus returns at his second advent which I won’t discuss here. If you really want to know, I shall answer you in another comment. Suffice is to say that your argument does not prove that the marriage will take place the moment Jesus returns at his Second Advent and therefore expels a Pretrib Rapture.

Ginny Grace Mortvedt

The KINGDOM of HEAVEN is coming down we are not going up.
Will YHWH protect HIS people during the time of troubles? Yes!
There will be a”Greater Exodus” of YHWH’s people to the Promised Land. As YHWH protected HIS people Israel before the first Exodus, so HE will protect HIS people again.
Who are HIS people? According to the scriptures HIS people are those who Overcome by the blood of the LAMB and by the WORD of their testimony…… Shema Israel, ADONAI, ELOHEYNU, ADONAI echad.
No believers replace Israel! As Paul writes, believers in YESHUA/Jesus are grafted into Israel.
When YESHUA said, “You are the light of the world”. HE was speaking to Jews, not gentiles.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Ginny Grace Mortvedt,

All Christians who are truly saved – Jews and Gentiles – are the light of the world. Perhaps you would like too tell us who are the children of the kingdom?

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west (GENTILES), and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 8:11-12)


I believed in the imminent rapture for more than a decade. I no longer believe in this because of the verses that bothered me(see below) and didn’t seem to fit the position. I have compared scripture with scripture, not trying to interpret the scripture to fit a pre conceived doctrine; look at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled (which I was), neither by spirit (I’m sure not the Holy Spirit) nor by word, nor by letter as from us (preachings of many pastors and Bible scholars) as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you (I was for past 13 years) by any means: for that day (RAPTURE) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (Anti-Christ) who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”. In this case, we can see that
(1) the apostasy, the falling away must happen “first” and
(2) the man of sin, the son of perdition will be revealed.
This doesn’t fit an imminent rapture, but it does fit into a rapture that will happen in the middle of 70th week, some says it is called mid tribulation rapture, others says it’s pre tribulation rapture because the great tribulation commences in the middle of a time, times, and an half.

Holy Spirit helped me discerning the things, and strive to understand the scriptures, but I asked myself doesn’t this contradicts Matt 24:36 Jesus said, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matt. 24:36). Holy Spirit lead me to these verses Romans 11:25 regarding the fullness of the gentiles and Revelation 5:1 regarding the book of judgement sealed with seven seals, where I saw these things are fully controlled and initiated by God our Father alone. However our Lord also says in verses 32-33 prior to verse 36 in the same chapter, “…when [the fig tree’s] branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.” We have seen this right infront of our eyes the reestablishment of Israel into her land in 1948. They took control of Jerusalem in 1967. And, with the turmoil in the Middle East, they are desperate for a peace accord.
The bottom line of the bottom line is according to the Scriptures there must come a falling away before the rapture of the saints and which in 100% impossible according to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.


Tell me who’s teachings did you read first before the Holy Spirit helped you discern this?!

First of all, I read the teachings of Paul the Apostle from the Holy Bible, then the Holy Spirit helped me discern this! A direct answer for your mock question. Second of all, I did any number of research on this matter, just like any other person, I too searched internet articles and books concerning the issue. And I know, mentioning the name of Holy Spirit is pointless because I don’t want to be mocked by you here in your blog. Maybe you think that you’re the only person with gift of discernment, do you?! Anyway, I don’t want to be deceived my man and devil anymore. Check this link written by Dr. Thomas Ice, who believes in an imminent/ pre-trib rapture proclaims “that Day” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. is rapture.
Conclusion: You and the other imminent rapturists must come into a common understanding before confusing others, especially those who lack faith.


[Deleted by DTW – Note: Because of this comment and your horrific email you sent me where you state “Well, carry your website along with your death.” it’s clear you are in dire need of salvation.]

Tom (Discerning the World)


“That day” does not refer to the Rapture but the seven year tribulation. False teachers were confusing the Thessalonians with their lies that they were already smack bang in the middle of the Great Tribulation because of the many persecutions they suffered. They thought they had missed the Rapture. Paul refuted these lies by telling them that a great falling away which is already rampant in all the churches today, and the appearance and identification of the Antichrist would precede the seven year tribulation. However the Antichrist cannot be revealed until He who restrains him is taken out of the way (from the face of the earth). (2 Thessalonians 2:7) The Holy Spirit is the only Person who has the power to restrain the Antichrist and his diabolical end-time works. Therefore the Body of Christ, indwelt by die Holy Spirit must first be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. Your premise that “that day” refers to the Rapture is wrong.

Jay Edwards

[spied this net reaction to the recent rerun of the 2016 rapture debate involving Stauffer:]

Re Margaret MacDonald, here’s what Dr. F. Nigel Lee stated: “Dave MacPherson, in his various books, has made a major contribution toward vindicating Historic Christian Eschatology. The 1830 innovations of the disturbed Margaret Macdonald documented by MacPherson—-in part or in whole—-immediately spread to Edward Irving and his followers, then to J. N. Darby and Plymouth Brethrenism, and were later popularized by the dispensationalistic Scofield Reference Bible, by Classic Pentecostalism, and by latter-day pretribulationists like J. F. Walvoord and Hal Lindsey.” (Dr. Lee stated this as the holder of nine EARNED doctorates [!] and as Australia’s most eminent evangelical scholar!) Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Main Point” and “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart” to find out what Dr. Stauffer censored. Stauffer’s “research” failed to notice that even Hal Lindsey calls Margaret a partial rapturist in his book “The Rapture.” And Walvoord’s “The Rapture Question” refers to partial rapturists as “pretribulationists” (p. 105) – pretribs who, in their “rapture charts” see “church” BEFORE the rapture as well as seeing “church” AFTER the rapture; they are “church splitters”! It’s amazing how many pretrib defenders have seized on Margaret’s statement “The trial of the Church is from Antichrist” and then gotten into a tizzy in public while ranting and screaming that “Margaret was a posttrib” or, even worse, that she was demon-possessed or in a trance or that “MacPherson has covered up many before 1830 who clearly taught pretrib”!!! Google “Scholars Weigh My Research” to find out other evangelical leaders who have endorsed MacPherson’s research since 1970. Also Google “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Stealth,” “C. I. Scofield’s Hidden Side,” “Famous Rapture Watchers” and “Dr. Watson’s Pretrib Non-Discovery” – just some of the hot articles on the British blog “Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing” hosted by noted teacher Treena Gisborn. BTW, this past July 5th, pretribber Dr. Erwin Lutzer told a packed Moody Church that there are now posttribs as well as pretribs among the MBI personnel, adding “Here at the Moody Church we have decided to not draw a line in the sand about these two views.” (!) But MBI is only reflecting the many worldwide who are now abandoning pretrib for other rapture views – and scary world events are helping to bring about the collapse of the 188-year-old pretrib fantasy!

Tom (Discerning the World)

The sooner the enemies of the Pretribulation Rapture get their facts in order, the lesser they will make fools of themselves. MacPherson’s writings are filled to the brim with historical quotes and allusions to 19th Century sources, but still hasn’t provided any documented basis for his claims. Unless we invent a time machine that enables us to turn time backwards to tick off in sequential order from 1830 to 1827 (back to the future kind of nonsense), placing the former first and then the latter, MacPherson’s claims are just plain silly. J.N Darby and others (i.e. Pseudo-Ephraem, Morgan Edwards) had already developed various forms of Pretribulationism.

J.N. Darby held a Pretribulation Rapture view as early as Janauary 1827. Margaret MacDonald was a Post-tribulationist. It is not historical pedigree that establishes truth but the inerrant Word of God.

Would love your thoughts, please comment.x