Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

Shadows of the Beast- Jacob Prasch

Shadows of the Beast:  Jacob Prasch – Twisting Scripture the Midrash Way

So I bought the book, “Shadows of the Beast” by Jacob Prasch and didn’t really make it past the Prologue.  I was kinda horrified at a number of things.  I will begin to list them in this article.  To start off with, Jacob Prasch is anti Pre-Tribulational rapture and bases his whole ‘idea‘ on the premise that Jesus won’t come back and Rapture the church until the anti-Christ makes himself known in the middle of the Tribulation.  He uses this verse as his only backup:  (2 Thessalonians 2:3)  “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

The problem is, Jacob is not telling us the truth, because if you go and read from the beginning of the chapter you find out that Paul is speaking to the Thessalonians, not about the Rapture, but about ‘the day of the Lord’.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1  Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2  not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.
3  Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Talking of pre-tribulationists, Jacob Prasch says, “They must also fail to draw due distinction between the Great Tribulation and “the Day of the Lord” which are distinct time periods.”  [pg. 17]     Well I beg to differ.

What exactly is “the day of the Lord'”?  The day of the Lord is The Tribulation made up of two parts;  The Tribulation being first 3.5 years and the Great Tribulation being last 3.5 years, totaling 7 years from start to finish plus Jesus’ Second Coming!

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So what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is saying is this: The Tribulation aka “the day of the Lord” will not start until the apostasy comes first, and Jesus’ Second Coming (when He sets foot on earth) will not take place until after the anti-Christ has been reveal.

Another way to look at it is that, the Antichrist will be revealed before ‘the day of the Lord’ (or Tribulation stars) but can only be revealed right after the time of the Rapture.

Jacob Prasch says, “The Rapture and Resurrection cannot happen until the “man of lawlessness” is revealed. [pg. 22]   Then he quotes (2 Thessalonians 2:3) “Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the apostasy come first, and the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction.”    He is saying that the word, “it” is the Rapture and Resurrection only.   This is FALSE.  As shown above, it is “the Day of the Lord” which encompasses The Tribulation and Jesus’ Second Coming.

Regarding the Rapture

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
1 Now on the topic of times and seasons, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you.
2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord will come in the same way as a thief in the night.
3 Now when they are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will surely not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in the darkness for the day to overtake you like a thief would.
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

Paul says: (1 Thessalonians 5:1)“But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.”  The word time here in Greek means chronos (khron’-os) in which we get the English word chronology.  So, of the general chronology, of this particular time Paul says that no one needs write about it because they have ALREADY been instructed: 1) concerning the general time when Jesus said He would come and 2) concerning the particular time.  So the general time CAN be known, but not the actual time. And this is a FANTASTIC message.

In (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3) Paul says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Time of Jacob’s trouble

It is IMPORTANT to note that the whole 7 year Tribulation period (also known as “Time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7) is considered a time of JUDGEMENT from God, not just the last 3.5 years which some seem to think.   Judgments will be poured out on earth as the seven-sealed scrolls are opened consecutively by the Lamb.  Judgments of the Seals, Trumpets and plagues GROWS IN INTENSITY, until you reach 2nd half of the tribulation, namely the Great Tribulation which lasts for another 3.5 years, where God’s Wrath is finally poured out IN FULL on mankind.  If Jacob Prasch thinks that the first half of The Tribulation is not part of God’s wrath on earth, then I do not know what bible he is reading.  Maybe he should stop reading extra-biblical books like the Midrash and pay attention to the Word of God alone to get a clue.

So how does the Rapture of the church relate to “the Day of the Lord” which happens before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ by 7 years?  We know that “the Day of the Lord” will come suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night, in other words, The Tribulation starts suddenly and unexpectedly.  And the Rapture of the church MARKS the end of ‘the day of Grace’ and simultaneously MARKS the beginning of the ‘the day of the Lord’.  As soon as the church is removed, the Antichrist is revealed and the trials and tribulations of this world begin in all earnest, the birth pangs are over, the birth begins, and no one can escape it.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

Paul tells the born again believers to be alert and sober, to watch for Jesus!

Looking for Satan

We are not to look for Satan as Jacob Prasch want us too, we do not have to identify the him and his False Prophet! Jacob deliberately writes a book twisting scripture trying to cheat saints out of the Blessed Hope. The Bible tells us we are look towards Jesus Christ only and comfort one another with the message that He will return.    (1 Thessalonians 4:1-18)  “15 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-18

1  Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2  For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3  For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4  That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5  Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6  That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7  For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9  But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10  And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11  And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12  That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jacob Prasch mentions many ideas and mis-conceptions in his book that make it sound like Pre-tribulationsists are a bunch of false teachers that need to be dealt with urgently.  I am going to list them and answer them:

1) He makes the statement that “The patriarch of Pre-Tibulationism, Dr. John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary admitted there is no stated biblical passage overtly teaching a Pre-Tribulational position.  Walvoord states, that “the Rapture is between the lines”. [pg. 16]     So because Dr John Walvoord changes his view now we must all fall down and beg for forgiveness because a so called patriach of Pre-Tribulationism says so?  I think not.  Walvoord can change his mind, but the Word of God stays the same.

2) Jacob states that Pre-Tribulationists are against identifying the anti-Christ and this is a BIG problem.  This is news to me, I had no idea that we were against identifying the anti-Christ because the bible tells us that  (1 Thessalonians 5:6) “we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.”    However the bible also does tell us not to focus our attentions on evil things, but to focus our attentions on Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:1-4
1 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory.

3) Jacob states; “The Greek term for “tribulation” (thelipsis) and the eschatological testing in Rev. 3:10 are precise synonyms despite linguistic evidence to the contrary.  Jesus in fact informed Christians that they would have tribulation in the world.” [ pg 17]       Oh boy, talk about trying to fool us, do you think we are of low intelligence? Of course Christians will have ‘tribulation’ in this world, but if we look at Revelation 3:10 it talks about the hour of temptation  which refers to THE Tribulation.    (Revelation 3:10)  “10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.    Jacob, should know, being the self proclaimed guru of all guru’s that an ‘hour’ in the Bible, denotes a period of time.  Having “trials and tribulations” is very different from THE Tribulation, a set period of time where God pours out His judgement on the earth for a full 7 years.

Revelation 3:7, 10
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Holy One, the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open:
10 Because you have kept my admonition to endure steadfastly, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

The promise of verse 10, like all the promises to these different churches, is for every true child of God“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  This is the Lord’s own pledge to those who love His Name and seek to keep His Word – they will not be left down here to pass through the appalling tribulation that is just ahead of those who “dwell upon the earth.” This expression is found frequently in the book of Revelation. It does not simply mean those who live in the world. A careful reading of the various passages in which this peculiar term is found will make it clear that “the earth-dwellers” are in contrast to those whose citizenship is in Heaven. They are persons who, while professing to be Christians, refuse the heavenly calling. They prove by their earthly-mindedness and worldly ways that they really belong to this world. All their hopes and their treasures are here. The Lord has said, “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”  [Emphasis added]   — Dr Henry Ironside

4)  Jacob states that Pre-Tribulationsists flounder because “they equate the removal of the Holy Spirit with the removal of the church.  This is a mistaken eschatology resulting from a mistaken pneumatology; they misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, which results in a further miscomprehension of 2 Thessalonians.” [pg. 17]    We misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Spirit now do we?   No Jacob.  We understand it fine.   It’s Jacob who is making up stories here to fill pages in his book.  Jacob believes that when we say that the Holy Spirit removes the church during the Rapture, he actually thinks we mean the Holy Spirit goes forever, good-bye, and the rest of the people on earth have to make do without Him.  Nope, we know that the Holy Spirit is then poured out as God once again shifts His attention back to the salvation of Israel during the 7 year Tribulation period.

Acts 2:17
17 ‘And in the last days it will be,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out my Spirit on all people, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.5) He states 2 dangers to the Pre-Tribulationist view:

a) That we will not be prepared for the reality of the Tribulation.  Forewarned is forearmed” Jacob Prasch says [pg 19] .    Really?  What does he plan to do to hide away in a bunker in his garden from God’s judgments during the first 3.5 years of the THE Tribulation?

b) His second concern is that we (Pre-Tribulationists) won’t know who the anti-Christ and False Prophet will be, and this according to Jacob Prasch is a huge problem.   This is ridiculous because as born again Christians we will have an inkling to who it could be because the bible tells us to keep watch for the signs of the times, as it means Jesus’ return is getting closer and closer, but there is no need for us know identify him because we will be raptures right before He makes himself known to the world and the Tribulation stars.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-6
5 For you all are sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.
6 So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober.

6)  Jacob then calls Pre-Tribulationsists false christs/prophets, deceiving the Elect.

a)  “Jesus Himself warned us of false Christs and false prophets in the Olivet Discourse, yet just as Preterists falsely teach it not longer applies to Christians because it has all (instead of partially) transpired in the events surrounding A.D. 70, Pre-Tribulationsists are left agreeing with them that it does not apply to us because we have already been raptured before the Antichrist and False Prophet become and issue.” [pg. 20]

b)  Jacob says we are not the Elect, we are false Christians, false prophets;  “The rapture and resurrestion cannot and shall not take place until the faithful believers can identify the ultimate two beasts of Revelation Chapter 13. The popular myth asserting the contrary as if it were an exegetical fact is a dangerous myth with must be debunked as a deception perpetrated against the Elect  [pg. 21]

False Christ/False Prophet, deception perpetrated against the Elect;  this is tantamount to calling us Heretics = a dissenter from established religious teaching.

7) Jacob says more and more people are fortunately turning away from the “erroneous nature of Pre-Tribulationalism and the need understand how to properly identify the final Antichrist and False Prophet – the beast of Revelation 13.” [pg. 20]    Yes more people are apostacising and turning away from Jesus Christ and focusing their attention on Satan instead. You are helping fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “…. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes …”

8)  Jacob says, “If only those who have wisdom will understand how to calculate the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18), and if it requires the true believers (whose wisdom is Christ), then who will be here with the wisdom to do the calculation?  These cannot be the tribulation saints because if they had the wisdom they would not be here either.” [pg. 19]

Revelation 13:18
18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast’s number, for it is man’s number, and his number is 666.The bible does not say we have to know, it says, let the one who has insight calculate the number.  By the time THE Tribulation starts and the Holy Spirit is poured out on the earth, people will have the wisdom to calculate the number of the beast and know who it is for sure.  Or is Jacob contradicting himself and saying that the Holy Spirit won’t be on earth during THE Tribulation?  Contradictions, galore in this book.

9)  This is a classic:   Jacob accuses Pre-tribulationists of saying that the apostasy is actually the Rapture. He says, “Some even venture so far as to identify the apostasy (apostasia) as the Rapture, not, as the context dictates, the departure from the truth when a delusional judgment comes upon those rejecting the truth they once professed. (2 Thes 2:10-11) [pg. 20]     I have never heard of this before, Jacob must have dug deep to find this nonsense to add to his book to paint us with a tarred brush.   If one looks at how Jacob Prasch has twisted the truth, one would think he is under a strong delusion. (2 Thes 2:10-11)

10)  Jacob Prasch says “that a very good translation of Laodicea is as a compound Greek term lao-dikaomai meaning  “people’s rights” or “people’s opinions”. Pre-tribulationists may have a right to their opinion, but they have no right to expect others to believe it when they themselves admit they cannot prove it with a single verse or passage by an inductive exegetical means” [pg. 21]    Jacob, Pre-Tribulationists have never denied that they cannot prove their position.  If you have found someone who has changed their eschatological view, it’s only because if you look deeper you will find that more than likely their entire doctrine is  suspect.   If we look at you with a magnifying glass, we find that you twist scripture, fellowship with men who follow doctrines of demons, insist that Christians spend their time identifying Satan, and use extra biblical manuscripts called the Midrash to interpret the bible thereby completely negating the Holy Spirit – see below:

Jacob Prasch was asked by Richard Engstrom this question:

“Can a group of sincere, literate, English speaking people in isolation from the rest of the world, come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all they have in their possession is a KJV without notes (without Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus)?”

Jacob’s answer was complicated, high-handed – but his basic reply was “NO!”

Engstrom comments:

“No matter how you slice it, his answer was NO! He denies that YOU, dear reader, can come to a COMPLETE understanding of ALL that God deeds to us through the Bible, if all you have in your possession is a KJV without notes (Midrash, without Eidersheim, without Josephus). You be the judge. Did I misrepresent his answer or not?”

Jacob’s full answer is now given:

“The Word of God was given in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic – not Elizabethan English. I accept the infallibility of the original manuscripts in the original languages, and not the infallibility of any translation, be it KJV or otherwise. Literacy in English is not a major factor, scripture demonstrates the importance of bringing out the original meaning in the original languages (e.g. Neh. 8:8 where after the captivity most people no longer knew Hebrew so the original Hebrew meaning had to be explained ). Hence, because I believe in the priority of the original languages (I have more faith in the bible than I do in translations of it ) MY ANSWER To YOUR FIRST QUESTION IS NO.”  —http://www.apostasynow.com/articles/midrash.html

Please read this article:  MIDRASH: THE CAMEL’S NOSE

We only need Jesus Christ to understand the Bible:

Revelation 3:7-8
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Holy One, the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open:
8 ‘I know your deeds. (Look! I have put in front of you an open door that no one can shut.) I know that you have little strength, but you have obeyed my word and have not denied my name.

The Lord spoke of Himself as “…the True One, who holds the key of David, who opens doors no one can shut, and shuts doors no one can open” (3:7). This verse is clearly a reference to Isaiah 22:22. In that Isaiah passage he who had the key of David was the treasurer of David’s house. There it is said of Eliakim, “The key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.” The remainder of the passage shows that Eliakim was a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, the one on whom should be hung all the glory of His Father’s house. He, by His Spirit, opens the great treasure-house of divine truth, and none can shut it. On the other hand where there is perversity of spirit and an unwillingness to walk in the truth, He shuts and none can open. So He has said elsewhere, “If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness” (Matthew 6:23).

It is blessed to realize that, while Christ is said to have the key of David, there is another sense in which we see that He is the key. By the presentation of Himself to the souls of His people He opens up the treasures of His Word. Thus Christ is the key to the Holy Scriptures, and no other is needed. To understand the Bible you need only to know Christ. [Emphasis added] —  Dr Henry Ironside

The Bible is clear, no Midrash, no other extra biblical manuscripts or tools, just Jesus Christ is needed.  Jacob Prasch does not tell us the truth when he tells us that we need other tools to understand the Bible.

What is Midrash?

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If we go and read about Midrash here on Moriel’s website, we can clearly see that something is very very wrong.

The Midrash definition is extremely vague, so much so that Jacob Prasch says,

Unless someone has been educated in Judaism, Hebrew, or theology, it is easier to demonstrate midrash than to explain it.”   

How peculiar, why can’t he explain it, are we not smart enough?

Strangely enough Wickipedia can explain it.

Midrash (Hebrew plural midrashim, lit. “to investigate” or “study”) is a homiletic method of biblical exegesis. The term also refers to the whole compilation of homiletic teachings on the Bible.

Midrash is a way of interpreting biblical stories that goes beyond simple distillation of religious, legal or moral teachings. It fills in many gaps left in the biblical narrative regarding events and personalities that are only hinted at. [1]

So it helps you “go beyond” teachings and “fill in the gaps” of the Bible;  that is very interesting – basically you are adding “extra biblical revelation” to the bible.  Jewish websites and others will admit Midrash is a collection of stories, allegory, history, scientific observations and legend.  Jacob claims the word Midrash is supposedly mentioned in the bible, as he claims here in this article:   What does the Word of God Actually Say About Midrash?.  But then we need to ask ourselves so is Enoch mentioned in the Bible, this does not mean we now can read the Book of Enoch as something inspired.

I went to go and look through the bible for the word “Midrash” and I can’t find it, but then after reading Jacob Prasch’s articles, the word “Midrash” does actually appear, as the word “story”  – this is what Jacob deems to be “Midrash” in the Bible.

Strong’s Number H4097 matches the Hebrew (midrash), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV (2Ch 13:22;  2Ch 24:27)

1) study, exposition, midrash, record, story
a) writings of a didactic nature
b) midrash – transliteration of the Hebrew word

Root Word (Etymology):   Hebrew (darash) – Strong’s Number H1875

meaning to resort to, seek, seek with care, enquire, require, search be it of God or of heathen Gods.

Hmmmm.  Really?  I think someone is a trying to make the Bible fit the Midrash.  Just because the word ‘story’ means Midrash, and the root of it means to ‘seek’,  it does not mean we can use stories and fables or ancient methods of study to investigate the bible.

Prasch states:

“You will never understand the Book of Revelation with the kind of limited approach to biblical interpretation that is taught in Protestant seminaries. Midrash is like a quadratic equation or a very complex second order differential equation, a thirteen or fourteen step equation. Some people take the first step of grammatical-historical exegesis and think the equation is solved”  [Emphasis added]The problem with the Reformers is that they only went so far. They made rules governing the application of their grammatical-historical system in order to refute medieval Roman Catholicism, and many of those rules are still taught in theological seminaries today.  [Emphasis added]

Jacob Prasch claims that you need to be well educated in Greek, Hebrew and a whole host of other rabbinical teachings to “truly understand scripture“.  This sounds very much like Roman Catholicism who only speak in Latin (so that you don’t understand) and tell their converts that they will never be smart enough to understand the bible; so you need to rely on specialist experts in all forms of theological studies to give you the message instead.

As I mentioned above, scripture is clear, you only need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be able to understand scripture and Christians through-out the centuries have done fantastically fine without Jacob Prasch and his Midrash.   Judging by the way Jacob has handled such simple scriptures as those mentioned at the very beginning of the article, I would say that a Reformer from a few hundreds of years ago could run circles around him and teach him a thing or two on CORRECT BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION.

But according to Prasch, it is just so terrible to think that the Reformers only went so far in their faith and could go no further without the Midrash.  It would seem Jacob Prasch is trying to take us back to the dark ages where the little people have to listen to the big people with regards to what the Bible says.  See (Galatians 4:2-12)  This is unbiblical.

Midrash and Kabbalah

And now we come to the FACT that there is a connection between Midrash and Kabbalah.  Surprise!!  Now, they say that the earlier Midrash differs from the later Medieval versions, but I mean who is pulling the wool over who’s eyes here?   These Jewish manuscripts, writings and studies are not OT Biblically inspired – this is where some of the Apocrypha (Magisterium, Canon Law, Sirach, Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Susanna) comes from.

Let’s go back to the Wickipedia definition of Midrash:

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“Midrash (Hebrew plural midrashim, lit. “to investigate” or “study”) is a Hebrew term referring to the not exact, but comparative (homiletic) method of exegesis (hermeneutic) of Biblical texts, which is one of four methods cumulatively called Pardes. The term midrash can also refer to a compilation of homiletic teachings (commentaries) on the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), in the form of legal and ritual (Halakhah) and legendary, moralizing, folkloristic, and anecdotal (Aggadah) parts.”

What is Pardes?

“The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of these four approaches, which are:

eshat  – “plain” (simple) or the direct meaning.
Remez  – “hints” or the deep (allegoric) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash – from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (seek) – the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (pronounced with a long O as in gold) – “secret” (mystery) or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

Really?  “Secret, mystery, mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.”

It would seem that mysticism is denounced when it comes to other preachers who delve into it and even Jacob and his ministry are quick to label them as false teachers, but it is biblical when it comes to Midrash?  How is this possible? What stories has he spun over the eyes of those following him, that they have swallowed up the lie?  The Midrash is nothing but a very sly and sneaky way of getting believers involved in mysticism.

Multiple meanings for the Bible?

“Midrash makes heavy use of allegory and typology to illustrate and illuminate doctrine, but never as a basis for doctrine. It sees multiple meanings in Bible texts found in strata,”   [Emphasis added] — http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

  1. Using Midrash to search through the Bible to illustrate and illuminate the doctrine – instead of the Holy Spirit who illuminates.
  2. You need a Jewish Rabbi to explain Midrash to you before you can have the “secret key” that will open the door to understanding.
  3. Use Midrash to searching for “secret knowledge
  4. Using Midrash to finding “multiple meanings” in the Bible.   Apparently the only way to find God’s proper truth is if you have multiple meanings.

Gnosticism teachers that the Bible cannot be understood as it is, you need to have a “secret key” which unlocks the “hidden mysteries” in the texts.  This is EXACTLY what Jacob Prasch presents to us under the banner of Christianity.

The Bible says…

John 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You do not need to understand Hebrew or Greek, or have a degree to understand the Bible, all you need is the Holy Spirit abiding in you.   Anyone who tells you that you need to look outside of scripture in order to understand it is not telling you the truth.

John MacArthur

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a)  Jacob Prasch says that Dr John Walvoord is a good man, excellent preacher and author like John MacArthur. [pg 16]

Who is John MacArthur?  A Calvinist who preaches that Jesus did not die for the whole world but for the Elect only. He preaches that you are not saved, you are CHOSEN by God before birth and that if you are Elect your children will be Elect.  John MacArthur denies the Blood of Jesus Christ and says it’s ‘just liquid’.  John MacArthur believes in a works based Salvation, called Lordship Salvation.

b) Jacob says, “Among these bretheren  are some of my closest personal friends who seek to uphold biblical truth in an age of apostasy where it is being eroded.  Among these are Dave Hunt, Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Dr David Hocking, Pastor Chuck Smith, Dr Thomas Ice, Dr Randolph Price…” [pg. 16]

I’m only going to focus on Chuck Smith.  Chuck  Smith is the founder of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa and the Jesus Movement in the 70’s that  Jacob Prasch says he belonged too in the hippie days.  See Shadows of the Beast [pg.19]

Chuck Smith close and personal friends with Jacob Prasch

Who is Chuck Smith:

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Lonnie Frisbee

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Chuck Smith

“Actually “the Calvary Chapel Movement was essentially spawned by Lonnie Frisbee, not Chuck Smith. It was Chuck’s embracing of Frisbee that drew the massive crowds of young hippies during the Jesus Movement…who then grew up and were Institutionalized by the opportunistic and shrewd Businessman, Chuck Smith.

Can a healthy Spirit-Led Movement of God be founded upon a man, Lonnie Frisbee, who was doing LSD and having homosexual relations with other men on Saturday…and then preaching the “real” Jesus Christ and Gospel on Sunday?

Lonnie Frisbee’s life and struggles with drugs and homosexuality is well documented. He died of AIDS as a result of his homosexual lifestyle. A very sad end I wouldn’t wish on anyone.

Kathryn Kuhlman, another Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith partner that was instrumental in the genesis of the Movement is hailed as the major influence in Benny Hinn’s life.  The hyper-Charismatic “faith healer”,

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Kathryn Kuhlman

Kuhlman, was very close to Smith and very much a part of the early days of CC.

Chuck Smith intervened with a Church Discipline Process with regards to David Hawking’s Adultery and sex scandal, circumventing another Church’s Scripturally motivated disciplinary process.

The list of scandals and cover-ups in Camp Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith’s Progeny, is astounding. This site documents the tip

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Chuck Smith and Rick Warren apostacising together

of the Ice Burg (but we’ll get to many others in time, and the list keeps growing as more people contact me with information).

A defense I’ve heard from some in the Online Discernment community, the supposed “Watch People” of “Sound Doctrine” and “Apostasy” etc. is, “Well, Chuck Smith is a gifted bible teacher”…and that excuses the Scandals and lack of following Scripture in dealing with sin in the Camp.

Well, what happens if Chuck Smith is preaching Heresy with regards to a Core Doctrine of the Faith? Can Chuck Smith be “wrong” and have a “wrong interpretation of Scripture” on a foundational issue like the Resurrection? Personhood? (Who the “real me” is).

I submit that Chuck Smith cannot be wrong on the Doctrine of Resurrection and be trusted as a true Prophet of God. The issue of Resurrection is key to our Faith. If one is “wrong” on the Resurrection…then others (Gnostics, Emergents, RCC, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, you name it) can be “wrong”, too, and it shouldn’t rise to the level of calling out the different “interpretation”…if we can just ignore something as serious as a Heretical View of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the Saints.”

“What does Chuck Smith say about who “we” are as “the Real Me”? What is Chuck Smith’s teaching regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection?

Chuck Smith teaches that (in his own words, see video) that “the REAL ME is spirit“…classic Gnosticism.

Chuck Smith goes on to teach a Doctrine of Resurrection of both Jesus Christ and the Saints where “your spirit LEAVES your body” and “goes into a NEW body” after you die. Classic Jehovah’s Witness Theology.

He goes on to explain that Jesus Christ had a “similar but different” body when He Resurrected. It is not the “same” Physical Body that has been Glorified, but rather the “spirit” of Jesus (and our “spirit” who is the “real me“) LEAVES our “old bodies” and then migrates to a “new body“…some Quasi-Spirit Body. This is Heresy.

I call on Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel to repent of their Heresy regarding the Doctrine of Resurrection. They cannot be “wrong” on this Core Foundational issue as the Gnostics and Jehovah’s Witnesses are. If we compromise the integrity of this Foundational Truth…then we are on a Slippery Slope and we are preaching a “different Jesus”.

There is no “old body” in the Tomb that Jesus arose from. Jesus Christ has “one” Literal Physical Earthly Body that was Glorified. We have one Literal Physical Earthly Body that is “the real us” that is Glorified.   Jesus’s “spirit” and our “spirit” does not “leave our old body” and migrate to some “new body” that is a Quasi-Spirit Body. That is JW and Gnostic and off the Reservation of Christian orthodoxy.”      [Emphasis added]    — http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=998

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14 Be you not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel?

Ephesians 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

292 Responses

  1. This is a comment that was made by a person called DAWIE under another article many moons ago who is an avid JP follower… read this one: 2010/10/19 at 12:55 pm

    Every time you read Mat. 2:14, 15, 17. 25:1 -13; John 1: 1-11;46-51; 1Cor.10:1-11; Gal.4:22-30, you are reading Midrash. These are but a few examples of many.

    You don’t have to study Midrash to be saved, but it is the method employed by Jesus and His Apostles when they taught and the method the Jews of that time understood. Midrash basically means “a look into” or “an ivestigation”[See Strong H4097]. Midrash is never doctrine. It illuminates doctrine. For example, BL refers to the Passover Seder [above].

    By studying the passages of Scripture which refer to this we can see a pattern which illuminates the doctrine of the Atonement [using Midrashic methods], but we can’t make a doctrine out of this. Our doctrine comes from the clear teaching of the Apostles.

    The Reformers and those that follow them use the historical/grammatical method of exegesis and stop there. What a tragedy!

    My response to your claim that the Bible is the FINAL AUTHORITY may just shock some readers!

    Firstly this is not a Biblical statement! The risen Lord has ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth. HE IS THE WORD OF GOD [John 1:1,14; Rev.19:13]. In the OT He is described as “The Word of the Lord” [debar or imra].

    Secondly, neither Jesus or Paul said the Bible [referring,of course,to the Tanach] was “the Word of God” or “God’s final Authority”. In fact they both used the term “the Scriptures”. Jesus chided the leading Jews about their failure to recognise the purpose of Scripture in John 6: 37-40. The Scriptures of the Bible testify of Jesus and,instead of seeking eternal life in the written words of Scripture, they needed to come to Him,”THE WORD OF GOD” for eternal life.

    Paul said, “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

    I agree that the original texts of both Testaments in their original languages are without error and contain truth and are authoritative. However,the FULL TRUTH IS IN JESUS who is the Truth.

    No Debs, the Bible tells us that CHRIST JESUS IS OUR FINAL AUTHORITY.[Mt. 28: 18]

    If you go and look at Moriel’s statement of faith it says, “We believe in the complete Bible constituting the supreme authority for our faith and ministry. We accept the Bible as the only basis of true doctrine. ” —http://www.moriel.org/About_Moriel/About_Moriel.html

    But not the Final authority…

    Dawie, can’t understand something so important as this: that because Jesus IS the WORD OF GOD, that the Word of God is Jesus Christ; that the Bible is the Word of God; that the Bible is Holy Spirit inspired, Jesus Christ in published form; that Jesus is our Final Authority, therefore the Word of God/Bible is our FINAL AUTHORITY. The Holy Spirit illuminates the Word of God for the Born Again Believer.

    (John 14:26) “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 16:13) “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

  2. Chris says:

    [Edited by DTW: This comment has been moved from “When will the Rapture Happen?“]

    Deborah.
    I appreciate your apology regarding your ignorance that you did not know that Midrash occurred in the Bible.

    At the time of your comment that Midrash is nowhere to be found in the Bible which should be basic knowledge should you be such a boffin on the topic, I find it amusing that you even commented on the topic, but then again we must admit that it is not comment but rather the work of a parrot who quotes others regarding the topic.

    Your concerns regarding Jacob’s involvement with Lausanne also proved your ignorance and your remark “NEWS FLASH! Someone ain’t telling us the WHOLE TRUTH! Was you not telling the whole truth.

    When eventually told what the truth was you responded with :” Ok, we will see this as Jacob Prasch being vindicated regarding Laussane, he knows what organisations he belongs too and does not belong too – Jesus after all does see everything.

    Which I see as a half heated attempt to acknowledge you ignorance also. There was no “NEWS FLASH” when the truth was revealed.
    You said: “Chris, instead of being spoon fed your information by Jacob Prasch who will tell you want he wants you to hear, do your own RESEARCH – please I beg of you to be a BEREAN!
    Deborah regarding the issues above you have been spoon feeding these errors to the undiscerning such as John, Redeemed and the rest and they believed you hence their support.
    In my research THUS FAR to establish the fraudulent Jacob Prasch I have rather found quote the opposite as is evident. As time permits I will go on to do so as the Bereans did with Paul, but as for the first two issues here you were wrong.
    When addressing others as being ignorant and erroneous you had much support from people like John who said “Great Research” regarding the Lausanne issue which was really no proper research at all as old documents were quoted without taking the very latest into consideration. (Date Feb. 2012)
    Then you had Redeemed back you up while never even having heard about Lausanne with a feeble attempt stating that the signing of the petition had no effect – at least we did something in the petition regarding Lausanne – have you? But then again you could not have as your knowledge concerning Lausanne was non- existent.
    You had much support from John, Redeemed and many others when addressing these issues wrongly, yet when you were proven wrong on both issues and by your own admittance AFTER being showed your ignorance these supporters fell silent. If this had been me for instance or Jacob or anyone else you all would have all published it all over and over and over to prove your point as you are doing already. This is hypocrisy something serious the Lord Jesus warns us not to do.
    Redeemed said: As for Chris, he declared that he would no longer participate in the discussion, then goes and tattles like a school boy
    Yes after this I am going to” tattle like a school boy” away from this site where your ignorance now has been identified. You need to consider to study to get more informed before making statements about things you have never heard of. I would suggest you go somewhere else where you are not given truth mixed with error as is the case here.

    Deborah regarding the statement I made about Jacob saying that those who believed in the pre-trib rapture as being heretics……I must admit that I cannot find it in Shadows of the Beast…..if you do please publish it. In our discussions by phone this might have been mentioned by you and I could have believed it. Whichever way – I stand either in correction to you or Jacob.
    Concerning [EDITED by DTW: Yes, backtrack why don’t you and save yourself from the wrath of you master Jacob Prasch. You know fully well what you said on the phone Chris. You said you read it too, that he is basically calling us heretics! It was not that the word heretic appeared, but that he was actually calling us heretics based on the things he was saying about us!]

    1 Corinthians 5-7
    You quoted:
    1 Corinthians 5:11 KJV 1611
    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    KJV 1611 who is called a brother – NOT Who calls himself a brother (He was professed AS a bother and did not so profess HIMSELF as such)
    1 Corinthians 5:11 Amplified Bible (AMP)
    11 But now I write to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of [Christian] brother if he is known to be guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater [whose soul is devoted to any object that usurps the place of God], or is a person with a foul tongue [railing, abusing, reviling, slandering], or is a drunkard or a swindler or a robber. [No] you must not so much as eat with such a person.
    AMP who BEARS the name NOT who CALLS himself a Christian (He was professed as a bother and did not so profess himself as such)
    1 Corinthians 5:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    11 But [a]actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or (B)an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
    Although the NASB is not such a good translation it also says any SO CALLED brother – is Not one who CALLS HIMSELF a brother (He was professed as a bother and did not so profess himself as such)
    1 Corinthians 5:11 King James Version (KJV)
    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    KJV – That is called a brother NOT the same as one who calls himself a brother.
    1 Corinthians 5:11 New Living Translation (NLT)
    11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
    Living New Translation is even worse than the NASB and differs in translation with the KJV regarding many verses.
    For instance: Romans 8:1 you also mentioned on 16 Nov.”….. because all our sins are already forgiven through Jesus Christ and we will never be condemned for them which agrees with this version in in Romans 8:1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.
    Yet only half the verse is quoted when comparing it to the KJV – Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH IS OMMITTED. HALF THE VERSE HALF THE MEANING – HALF THEOLOGY.
    1 Corinthians 5:11 English Standard Version (ESV)
    11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
    Same thing who BEARS the name NOT CALLING himself a Christian.
    1 Corinthians 5:11 Common English Bible (CEB)
    11 But now I’m writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls themselves “brother” or “sister” who is sexually immoral, greedy, someone who worships false gods, an abusive person, a drunk, or a swindler. Don’t even eat with anyone like this.
    Same error as NLT Rom 8:1 So now there isn’t any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Half the verse, half the meaning.
    Seeing that you quoted Richard Engstrom regarding his questioning Prasch’ s views on Midrash who is Kings James only orientated, look at what people with similar views have to say about the Common English Bible you quote: This Bible is described as an ecumenical version by them; “
    “Another new translation has been foisted upon the church in 2010 and this one too is nothing but a corruption of the real Bible. The translation committee had a quite a number of unbelievers working on it. Some of which are below and the list comes from their own website. How can anyone trust this counterfeit when so many unbelievers have worked on it. Since when does God hand His Holy Word over to unbelievers for translation. This is a highly ecumenical version and should be avoided by all serious Christians. As one would expect, they used the Hort-Westcott Critical Text which is used by all modern versions, so then what makes this translation better than the other ones? Let me answer that in New Jersey English, “Nuttin!”
    Many other errors occur in this book.
    SO WHO IS NOW QUOTING FROM AN ECUMENICAL SOURCE? Wonder what your friend REDEEMED and other supporters think about this???? COMPROMISE that is what it is!
    Redeemed etc. listen to you GURU.
    See http://www.scionofzion.com/cebexposed.htm
    1 Corinthians 5:11 Good News Translation (GNT)
    11 What I meant was that you should not associate with a person who calls himself a believer but is immoral or greedy or worships idols or is a slanderer or a drunkard or a thief. Don’t even sit down to eat with such a person.
    Now the Good News is even more ridiculous to quote. Read this nonsense and compare it to a better and more accurate translation such as the King James. If you believe both you must be of two minds.
    These translations are not the same and convey many different meanings. It is significant for you to quote them to suit your purpose yet Paul calls us to be of one mind – these weaker versions are not of one mind.
    I wonder how Engstrom would react towards you regarding these issues – go ask him.
    To me, although the KJV and the Old Afrikaans translations have limited mistakes, I have found them to be much more reliable than many of what I have labelled here as weaker versions. If you want to see them as all the same………..well so be it and carry on in your confused state of mind regarding Scripture.
    Most of the new translations including the Message etcetera are used by the NAR to further their New World ecumenical thrust.
    You say: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 16:13) “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    These weak versions do not teach the same how can they like the Holy Ghost show you all things to come?
    William MacDonald who holds Calvinistic views has the following to say on Page 2192 of The Believers Commentary”
    “As has been indicated, there has been considerable disagreement among Christians as to the real nature of sin. The problem in brief, is whether it refers to:
    1. True Christians who subsequently turn away from Christ and are lost.
    2. True Christians who backslide but who are still saved.
    3. Those who profess to be Christians for a while, identify themselves with a local church, but then they deliberately turn away from Christ. They were never truly born again, and now they never can be.”
    He also says on the same page “No matter which way we hold, there are admitted difficulties. WE believe that the third view is the correct one because it is most consistent with the over-all teachings of the entire New Testament.”
    This is a Calvinistic view regarding salvation.
    To me there are no difficult verses in this regard only to the confused minds whose interpretations are wrong. God will not give us difficult verses, they become difficult when we do not understand them. That is our own interpretations which make them difficult.
    As Peter rightly wrote regarding steadfastness in the Lord:

    2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

    To believe what you do one HAS to change Scriptures to MAKE them mean what you believe and that is exactly what you have done and are doing Deborah. The Lord warns us that we must not think we stand lest we fall that includes us all.

    The Apostle John wrote:

    1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
    1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
    1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

    These are anointed people who were warned not to be seduced while the anointing taught them as well.
    Instruction – Abide in Him so that we may not be ASHAMED when He appears and may have confidence.
    “aischunomai” means disfigured, disgraced ashamed.
    The Old Afrikaans version says in verse 28: En nou, my kinders, bly in Hom, sodat ons vrymoedigheid kan hê wanneer Hy verskyn en nie beskaamd van Hom weggaan by sy wederkoms nie.
    Believe whatever you want to as we will both be judged according to what we have taught.
    Now with regards to Jacob and Moriel Ministries hear this! If and when I find out that they are deceivers and their doctrine has major faults I WILL react as I am doing now by leaving this site as I have found too many inconsistent statements wrenching Scripture out of context as well as ignorantly making statements which are not true as was acknowledged.

  3. Chris

    That will be your last comment. You nastiness is unbelievable. You harp on the Luassane thing and making a big deal out of it using it as a smoke screen to duck and dive all the other serious issues.

    I will continue to expose Jacob Prasch no matter what!

    >> SO WHO IS NOW QUOTING FROM AN ECUMENICAL SOURCE? Wonder what your friend REDEEMED and other supporters think about this???? COMPROMISE that is what it is!
    >> Redeemed etc. listen to you GURU.
    >> See http://www.scionofzion.com/cebexposed.htm

    Oh get real will you. Looking for things to nail me on is not going to detract from the HORDE of ISSUES FACING JACOB PRASCH.
    If you READ, I said, “I went and just had a look at some bible translation (good and bad) to see what they say of the same verse… and it’s very interesting:”

    >> William MacDonald who holds Calvinistic views has the following to say on Page 2192 of The Believers Commentary”
    >>“As has been indicated, there has been considerable disagreement among Christians as to the real nature of sin. The problem in brief, is whether it refers to:
    >>1. True Christians who subsequently turn away from Christ and are lost.
    >>2. True Christians who backslide but who are still saved.
    >>3. Those who profess to be Christians for a while, identify themselves with a local church, but then they deliberately turn away from Christ. They were never truly born again, and now >>they never can be.”
    >>He also says on the same page “No matter which way we hold, there are admitted difficulties. WE believe that the third view is the correct one because it is most consistent with the over->>all teachings of the entire New Testament.”
    >>This is a Calvinistic view regarding salvation.

    Oh for for crying out loud. I am so tired of explaining this… Calvinists believe they are CHOSEN by GOD before they are born therefore they are ‘ONCE CHOSEN, ALWAYS CHOSEN’ anyone who does not accept their doctrine is therefore NOT CHOSEN. Biblical salvation says that, when you have free will, when you come to be genuinely saved the Holy Spirit SEALS YOU. THIS IS VERY DIFFERENT to Calvinism. My goodness, think a little bit why don’t you.

    According to you EVERYONE is that says they are Christian must therefore be a Christian, just different degrees of Christianity – so everyone sits on the ‘sin scale of 1-10’ 1- being bad, 5 luke warm, 10 being super good.

    If you want to believe that you can lose your salvation, then by golly Chris, work for it boy, work for it – work hard because 1 tiny weeny little sin in God’s eyes is that same as murder. So technically you should be unsaved because no man will be able to keep up with God’s requirements, and we are ALL SINNERS, we sin daily. But I am saved by Grace, sealed by the Holy Spirit who convicts me and I repent in earnest and I do my best to CHANGE MY WAYS and live a holy life that is pleasing to Him.

    As for you other accusations, insults after I apologiezed; I have been very nice to you, and all sorts… but your nasty comment are something else. Hmmm I can see why you don’t mind Jacob Prasch insulting people the way he does, because you pretty much do the same thing.

    You know what. I think you need to go away now, don’t comment and don’t phone me either and don’t email me either. Good-bye!

    Follow your master Jacob Prasch and the UNBIBLICAL Midrash.

  4. Robbie says:

    Bold, obedient and brave Debs, as always.

    Fact.
    The hallmark of false teachers: “If you can’t dazzle ’em with brilliance, baffle ’em with a load of what horses drop!” Unfortunately, these types are successful because people don’t bother to check the Scriptures for themselves….

    They just don’t bother… We live instant lifestyle. People just would not spend time to dig in.

  5. Truthful Conversation says:

    Well, I have been reading all through these comments and I find it all quite sad. It was not a thread/conversation I was following before, but I got involved and made a comment when I read what Jacob Prasch had said about John Chingford. I know John to be a kind, thoughtful man, one who goes by Biblical truth and not the words of man. His words are measured and considered. That is the reason I felt outraged at what Jacob had said about John.

    I am not getting involved in the specifics of this thread as I do not pretend to be knowledgable regarding any of it, and my focus is elsewhere. However, I would say that I think Chris should leave this site as he says he is going to do. He obviously feels that Debs is not ‘up to speed’ regarding Jacob Prasch, and he feels that way about Redeemed and John too. It appears to me that Chris wishes to continue to argue about Jacob’s position on things, but from what I read, he says that if he discovers Jacob is in error, he will leave there too. My advice Chris is that before you defend Jacob to the ‘death’, you should wait upon the Lord and see how things transpire regarding Jacob’s teachings and associations.

    These ‘debates’ are only becoming more heated and more divisive, and Chris you are making personal attacks on people. I am not, nor do I pretend to be, some great Bible scholar, although the Lord has taken me on a long journey of change, and He has revealed much truth to me in the last two years. I heard of Jacob’s book, Shadow of the Beast, and in fact it caught my interest and I was going to order it online. This was quite a while ago. For some reason, every time I thought about ordering the book, I felt a sense that I should wait. This, I believe, was the Holy Spirit leading me.

    I do know about Lausanne, I did some reading on it in the past. I do not know about Jacob’s involvement, or non-involvment. Quite frankly, I do not care. My thoughts on all this is that Jacob has proved himself to be a rude, arrogant man with an un Christlike spirit. For me, I am disinterested in Jacob’s beliefs whether they agree with mine or not.. I would not want to associate myself with a man that can ‘beat’ his fellow Christians with such abusive words.. regardless of the disagreement.

    All I desire to do is warn Christians of the lies and deception of the devil. I hate satan and I hate his lies. Those so-called men/women of God who propagate satan’s deceit and lead people on the road to destruction.. these people make me very angry, but I am always aware that ‘we wrestle not with flesh and blood…’. I might not have the knowledge of some, but the Lord has given me wisdom in some things, and I constantly read the scriptures and research the things I believe God would have me to learn and understand.

    I believe that Debs has a special ministry, and I know that she has a heart for truth. I also know that Debs is human and not infallible.. so even though I love her as a friend and I often ask her advice on things I do not understand, I do NOT follow after her. And Debs is the first one to tell you not to trust in her, but to trust in the Lord and His word. I have seen Debs acknowledge mistakes she has made in posts.

    Anyway folks, I think everyone should take a breather regarding Jacob Prasch, he seems to be taking over.. and as I said earlier Chris, you should leave this site. Debs must do what the Lord leads her to do in exposing false teachers and error. Chris, if you are the mature, wise Christian you say you are..stop running back and forth between DTW and Moriel and/or Jacob Prasch. As I said, you might defend JP only to discover that he is wrong afterall. If Debs is wrong she will be responsible to God.. but this constant harrassing of her and others on this site, it does not prove anything other than that you are a troublemaker, and I say that in all Christian love.

  6. Truthful Conversation

    >> Well, I have been reading all through these comments and I find it all quite sad.

    Very sad indeed, you got no idea how sad I am.

  7. Redeemed says:

    Chris, if you by chance drop by to see any further comments, I feel the need to respond to your last comment. Also, for the record for any others who have been following this thread.

    First of all, you told me to follow my GURU, Deborah. I have NO GURU. I do respect Deborah for her boldness to go where others don’t have the courage to go in exposing error to protect the precious flock of God. By her own admission she makes mistakes and she owns up to them. The Lord Jesus Christ is the One I serve and follow. And furthermore, if I found any indication that Deborah considered herself a GURU I would run from this site. Just a couple of points although THIS IS JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG.

    Regarding Midrash. Yes, TECHNICALLY it is in the Bible. But the greater point is that Mr. Prasch elevates it to the level of being a necessary tool in order to properly understand the Bible. That CONCEPT of exegesis based on Midrash is NOWHERE in the Bible, is it?

    Regarding the Lausanne issue, this is not the major concern here. In hindsight, it might have been better left unsaid. But Moriel is not guiltless concerning the greater issues of ecumenism as evidenced in other associations.

    Regarding the double-mindedness of embracing John MacArthur even though he is a Calvinist. How can this be justified?

    Regarding Mr. Prasch’s vitriolic and unChrist-like diatribe against a brother in Christ. Even if all the other issues could be settled, this should be enough to question the validity of Mr. Prasch’s teachings and if he is guided by the Holy Spirit, don’t you think?

    I am sorry that you were offended by my remark about the “tattling”. But that was exactly what it was. Why did you see the need to do that when you knew that Mr. Prasch would likely unleash a stream of insults that were not helpful or edifying in any sense of the word?

    Why did you feel the need to call in the “big guns” instead of doing your homework having a civil discourse here? If you wished to defend and clarify, that is helpful and would be received as brothers and sisters seeking the truth above personalities. But the inserted and forwarded comments only served to muddy the waters.

    These are rhetorical questions because as it stands you will not be commenting here again. As a fellow believer in Christ I exhort you to ask yourself these questions and seek the Lord in your prayer closet as we all should do.

    Mr. Prasch is spreading false teaching under a banner that has been long trusted. That is the case with many ministries and teachers who have veered off the path. It calls for constant vigilance. And when a much-loved teacher is questioned many will blame the messenger and reject the warning. That goes with the territory and Deborah is fully aware of that. Those of us who support her do NOT do so blindly. Some are researchers in their own right and depend upon the Holy Spirit ultimately. The greater concerns regarding Mr. Prasch’s teachings stand.

    This is not a personal attack on him. Mr. Prasch’s horrible words of attack were not answered in kind. His intelligence and his talents have not been questioned. His judgment and his choice of words have been. His fruit is being examined, as the Bible instructs. It gives a Berean no pleasure, only grief and heartache when a teacher falls away.

    I pray that you will put all aside and go into your prayer closet and devote yourself to seeking the Lord about these things. It is painful to come to the realization that someone trusted is no longer trustworthy. Been there – done that. If you have a sincere change of attitude and heart on these things I dare to say that your comments would pass moderation.

  8. Andy says:

    Deborah wrote: “If you want to believe that you can lose your salvation, then by golly Chris, work for it boy, work for it – work hard because 1 tiny weeny little sin in God’s eyes is that same as murder. So technically you should be unsaved because no man will be able to keep up with God’s requirements, and we are ALL SINNERS, we sin daily.”

    This is pretty much what I tell people too, people that think that salvation can be lost. They don’t seem to understand that they sin every day, so why don’t they understand that they probably lost their salvation? Seriously, they’re wasting time talking about it on a website. They need to go get their salvation back.

    As for me, my salvation is secure (John 6:47). I can’t lose it.

    It was on this issue, that I pegged Prasch to be someone I refuse to listen to. He can’t stop talking about losing salvation. So he and his disciples need to watch themselves so they don’t lose their salvation, and stop wasting the time of those who cannot lose salvation.

  9. This is how the BEREANS acted:

    Acts 17:10-13
    10 The brothers sent Paul and Silas off to Berea at once, during the night. When they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
    11 These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.
    12 Therefore many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men.
    13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica heard that Paul had also proclaimed the word of God in Berea, they came there too, inciting and disturbing the crowds.

    They didn’t attack Paul and Silas and belittle them something terrible, insult them, mock them, no they eagerly received the message and went off to examine the scriptures carefully every day. A Christian attitude would not be to belittle, insult, and mock the messenger – but to go off quietly and study the scriptures to see if these things are true.

    We can clearly see that Chris’ version of a Berean is not the Biblcal version of a Berean.

    Moriel Ministries are using the Lausanne issue as a BIG SMOKESCREEN to try and blot out every other issue that has been listed under this article. Well sorry for YOU, but these below issues are not going to go away: I will mention them again:

    1) Slain in the Spirit teaching – You can find it here as well: on page 6
    2) demonic Nephilim teaching (in practically all videos and books JP mentions this)
    3) Midrash which is introduction to KabbalahMOST IMPORTANT!
    4) On 2 occasions I have seen Moriel (Jacob Prasch and Dave Royle) mention John Wesley (who believed you can lose your salvation) – this is works based salvation and George Whiefield (who was a Calvinist)

    Here Jacob Prasch says, “While John Wesley opposed the institution of slavery, even an otherwise outstanding figure like George Whitefield, because of the cursed Calvinism to which he foolishly subscribed owned Black slaves resulting in a shameful indictment on the memory of such a great man of God. -–http://www.moriel.org/Teaching/Online/Once_Saved/Once_Saved_Always_Saved.pdf [pg. 10/48]

    Again we, and again and again and again, we have Jacob speaking out of two mouths, for and against false doctrines. You can’t be a false teacher, believing in a false gospel AND be a man of God. He speaks against Calvinists but agrees and calls teachers of Calvinism men of God. Just like he says John MacArthur is a great preacher – how is this possible, if John MacArthur preaches a FALSE DOCTRINE leading people to hell! What is so great about that!

    There are plenty places where John Wesley and George Whitefield are mentioned by Moriel, you don’t have to look hard to find them quoted, praised, upheld as great men of God. How is this possible.

    Here on Moriel it says, “Read Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, D.L. Moody, George Whitefield – the people whom God used to bring revival to Britain.” —http://www.moriel.org/Teaching/Online/Death_of_Absalom/07_Grace.html

    From Wikipedia: John Wesley ( /ˈwɛzlɪ/; 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – 2 March 1791) was an Anglican cleric and Christian theologian. Wesley is largely credited, along with his brother Charles Wesley, as founding the Methodist movement which began when he took to open-air preaching in a similar manner to George Whitefield. In contrast to George Whitefield’s Calvinism, Wesley embraced the Arminian doctrines that were dominant in the 18th-century Church of England. Methodism in both forms was a highly successful evangelical movement in the United Kingdom, which encouraged people to experience Jesus Christ personally. Wesley’s teachings, known as Wesleyanism, provided the seeds for the modern Methodist movement, the Holiness movement, Pentecostalism, the Charismatic Movement, and Neo-charismatic churches, which encompass numerous denominations across the world. In addition, he refined Arminianism with a strong evangelical emphasis on the Reformed doctrine of justification by faith. —http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley

    4a) Strange view on salvation:
    From Dilemma of Laodicea [pg. 32]

    Salvation, Saved and Born Again
    – I have been saved
    – I am being saved, and
    – I am going to be saved.
    Similarily,
    – I have been born again,
    – I am being born again, and
    – I am going to be born again.

    You can find it here as well: on page 6 explained in more detail.
    He is speaking about past, present and future, trying to explain: justification, sanctification and redemption. This is not correct! It sounds ok, but when you think about it and look at the verses he has quoted it’s not right at all. He preaches you can lose your salvation which is not Biblical which would explain the strange explanation above: You get saved, you work hard at staying saved, and only in the end will be saved if you are obedient enough.

    5) Friendship with Chuck Smith from Calvary ChapelVERY IMPORTANT issue! I do not know how he can be friends with a man like that.
    6) Distorted eschatological view – he is anti Pre-Trib and calls those who believe in pre-trib false teachers and unbelievers deceiving the Elect.

  10. Andy

    I didn’t actually realise that JP believed that one can lose their salvation and therefore believed in a works based salvation. It was only when I started to investigate his teachings properly and listen properly to what some of this friends were saying, that it dawned on me that this was the case. And this is when I became very very concerned. It bothered me for a long time.

    I’ve been wanting to say something about JP for a long time, and I knew the backlash was going to be great because of my friendship with some people close to JP, but I love Jesus Christ more than life itself, and I follow HIM only, and I knew that I could not remain silent because remaining silent would be tantamount to accepting JP and his teachings.

    If you know of anything else about JP’s teachings that are wrong please email me. Thanks so much for commenting, you have been a great help.

  11. Michael says:

    That’s right Andy…if you are truly regenerated…the old man dies at Golgotha, Christ bearing his sins and iniquities once and for all…you are identified with Him there and when He rose again, the regeneration of you takes place. If you do not have the dying to sinful self you cannot have the resurrection as well.

    As I have said before no where does it say in the bible you get born-again more than once…our Lord gave the answer to Nicodemus…to even infer or suggest this is not only ridiculous but totally misunderstanding the purpose of the Cross.

    The real problem with this issue is that the advocates of this have more than likely never been born-again in the true sense but have been misled by an experience. No experience,feeling,sensation or ritual can save you…only complying with God’s way…the application of the true gospel message can.

    Hallelujah what a Saviour!

  12. Elizabeth C says:

    To all those who are dear to Jesus

    I accidentally stumbled onto discerningtheworld two days ago while on the internet, searching for topics on the rapture.

    I read the threads under the rapture heading which was very interesting

    My friend suggested that I read Shadows of The Beast so I read through the threads.

    I am not guided by the Spirit to leave my estimation on most the discussions here now, because I will need to read the book first.

    I also read a Greek bible and I checked and found Deborah’s comment on the 20th corresponding with my bible.

    The translation “so-called brother” implies that the sinner in question was only a professing Christian. However, there is nothing in the Greek text that justifies the rendering “so-called brother.” The Greek verb “to call” (kaleo) and the masculine pronoun “himself” (autos) are not found in this verse. The key word is onomazomenos a participle whose root is the word “name” (onoma). The Greek phrase tis adelphos onomazomenos literally means, “one who bears the name brother.” The ESV, NRSV, NKJV, and NIDNTT 655 get it right while the KJV is close. Other VSS (e.g., NASB, NIV, and NET) interpret tis adelphos onomazomenos (“one who bears the name brother”) for the reader rather than translate it and let the reader come to his own conclusions. Additionally, the context strongly suggests that the man in question is a genuine believer. In 5:1 this person is contrasted with Gentiles and with those in the world (5:12) and outside the church (5:9, 10, 12-13). Furthermore nowhere else the Greek verb (named or called) carries a sense of doubt (see Mark 3:14; Acts 19:13; Rom 15:20; Eph 3:15; 5:3; 2 Tim 2:19). Hence Paul contrasts the immoral believer with unbelievers. The equation of both is in their behavior not identity. —http://bible.org/seriespage/how-handle-scandal-1-corinthians-51-13#P78_34865

    In all humbleness may I please point something out to Deborah and respectfully see this as some positive attribution instead than hostility.

    Mentioned in the piece above the passage above kaleo and autos is not mentioned in the verse in my bible and underscores “to call” (kaleo) “himself” (autos) is absent from this verse.

    “The key word is onomazomenos a participle whose root is the word “name” (onoma). The Greek phrase tis adelphos onomazomenos literally means, “one who bears the name brother.”

    The is precisely the same as in my bible.

    “Additionally, the context strongly suggests that the man in question is a genuine believer. In 5:1 this person is contrasted with Gentiles and with those in the world (5:12) and outside the church (5:9, 10, 12-13). Furthermore nowhere else the Greek verb (named or called) carries a sense of doubt (see Mark 3:14; Acts 19:13; Rom 15:20; Eph 3:15; 5:3; 2 Tim 2:19). Hence Paul contrasts the immoral believer with unbelievers. The equation of both is in their behavior not identity. —“

    Does this not challenge the argument that this person was an unsaved person amongst believers because the paragraph above suggests (Additionally, the context strongly suggests that the man in question is a genuine believer)?

    The contrast is to show the readers the difference between the immoral believer and the immoral people who are unbelievers.

    Just though I will share with all of you.

    May our Saviour’s peace prevail in our hearts.

  13. John Chingford says:

    IMPORTANT!

    —-
    Hi Everyone

    Although I had not yet sent any email to Jacob (in response to his outburst against me) yesterday he sent me a very nasty personal email. In it I was accused of things NOT TRUE.

    I sought counsel from some of my friends, evaluated what they said, prayed about it and then sent a reply to Jacob. I was reminded that “a soft answer turns away wrath”, so I started by apologising over something I had actually possibly got wrong. Basically, I tried to be as warm and gracious as possible according to Jesus’ instructions to us. I sensed God’s help with my attitude and the words I used. However, I still asked the important questions including why the ecumenical Jews For Jesus are still endorsed on Moriel website.

    I have now received a much softer email response from Jacob BUT NO APOLOGY. I will paste part of his email which tackles my specific questions. I am sure he wants you to see this.

    “We have had concerns about Jews For Jesus for some time and already decided to remove them from our recommended web links in 2013. They have good material for witnessing to Jews as resource material however so we are presently looking for a suitable replacement.

    We dropped Chuck Missler a long time ago. Although personal friends we rarely work together anymore beause he deviates into too many fringe element things we cannot endorse”

    Jacob also clarified that Moriel had left LCJE 15 years ago!!!

    My sources showed me a URL site showing that Moriel was still on the membership list. Maybe this person had a very old listing but didn’t make that clear to me. This is the problem sometimes with the internet. It isn’t always clear the date when articles are written and these sites sometimes fail to remove these statements. I would have thought that something as important as seeming to endorse ecumenism SHOULD BE TOTALLY DELETED from the site ASAP, otherwise it leads to misinterpretations.

    Having said this AS PROMISED, I publicly apologise to Jacob re what I wrote about his association with LCJE. I also would like to commend Moriel’s decision to remove their association with J4J and Jacob’s statement about Chuck Missler.

    Although Jacob is considered by many to be a very intelligent person, his skills in communication are very poor and often lead to misunderstandings, i.e he doesn’t really explain himself very well. Maybe his outbursts (in writing)are related to frustrations with himself at his inability to express himself properly IN WRITING. Although his speech is clear, his writing skills are very poor.
    —-

  14. So

    Jacob Prsach says, “We dropped Chuck Missler a long time ago. Although personal friends we rarely work together anymore”

    So Chuck Missler and Jacob Prasch are still PERSONAL FRIENDS.

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-is-fruit-of-chuck-missler-and.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2011/12/roger-oakland-exposes-not-chuck-missler.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/02/chuck-missler-paired-up-with-jesuit.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/02/apostasy-of-dr-chuck-missler.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/06/purposeful-deception-at-chuck-misslers.html

    Just like Jacob Prasch is PERSONAL FRIENDS with Chuck Smith (Calvary Chapel).

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/05/are-vatican-and-calvary-chapel.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/05/chuck-smith-don-stewart-reveal-another.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/10/calvary-chapel-arrested-member-warning.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/10/calvary-chapel-costa-mesa-member.html
    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/10/who-says-chuck-missler-calvary-chapel_17.html

    What does the bible say about the company you keep:

    2 Corinthians 6:14-15
    14 Do not become partners with those who do not believe, for what partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?
    15 And what agreement does Christ have with Beliar? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever?

    1 Corinthians 10:21
    21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot take part in the table of the Lord and the table of demons.]

  15. Redeemed says:

    John, Mr. Prasch has authored many books. Saying he lacks writing skills and is frustrated because he lacks the ability to express himself is ridiculous! Mr. Prasch’s outbursts in writing are quite articulate and clear. He is an extremely intelligent and talented individual in no way hampered by the inability to communicate either orally or written. His terminology is that of an accomplished wordsmith.

    Does his statement of friendship with Mr. Missler not concern you?

  16. Redeemed says:

    Andy, apparently Mr. Prasch holds to an Arminian theology and their version of “Conditional Preservation of the Saints”. They don’t consider this works-based because it is determined by faith and not works. Of course faith is evidenced through works. In other words they believe that a saved person has the free will to walk away and reject Christ. Whether that is final and one can change one’s mind again, I don’t know. From Wikipedia:

    Arminians believe that “It is abundantly evident from the Scriptures that the believer is secure.”[9] Furthermore, believers have assurance in knowing there is no external power or circumstance that can separate them from the love of God they enjoy in union with Christ.[10] Nevertheless, Arminians see numerous warnings in Scripture directed to genuine believers about the possibility of falling away in unbelief and thereby becoming severed from their saving union with God through Christ.[11] Arminians hold that if a believer becomes an unbeliever (commits apostasy), they necessarily cease to partake of the promises of salvation and eternal life made to believers who continue in faith and remain united to Christ.[12] Therefore, Arminians recognize the importance of warning believers about the danger of apostasy and exhorting them to persevere in faith as a means of building them up in their faith and encouraging them to mature spiritually, which is a sure and biblical way to avoid apostasy.[13]

    Of course there are many problems with this view. It is the polar opposite of Calvinism and seems to be spot on except for this facet of the belief. But a very false and damaging concept. This is not a thread about that, but the error of this belief should be obvious to those who understand eternal security of the believer and believe one is sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of regeneration and that process cannot be reversed.

  17. Truthful Conversation says:

    EXACTLY Debs, we are known by the company we keep! The fact that Jacob admits to being friends with Chuck Missler is very telling indeed. How can light fellowship with darkness? And what does ‘rarely work together’ mean? Jacob should not ‘work’ with Missler…end of! However Jacob chooses to defend himself, he still had NO right to be abusive to John. I also believe that if Jacob feels that he cannot communicate very well, he should get someone to read and edit his replies!

    John received no apology from Jacob either..to me that is the sign of pride. I recently had to write a letter of apology to someone, it IS difficult, but if you love the Lord, you will be obedient to the Holy Spirit’s conviction. If Jacob has no conviction to apologise..then where does that leave him? Forget everything else he has got wrong.. he is just showing his true colours as a man.

  18. John Chingford says:

    Redeemed wrote:

    John, Mr. Prasch has authored many books. Saying he lacks writing skills and is frustrated because he lacks the ability to express himself is ridiculous! Mr. Prasch’s outbursts in writing are quite articulate and clear. He is an extremely intelligent and talented individual in no way hampered by the inability to communicate either orally or written. His terminology is that of an accomplished wordsmith.

    Does his statement of friendship with Mr. Missler not concern you?

    Hi Redeemed

    Of course it concerns me that Jacob still claims friendship with CM. At least he agreed that he cannot endorse or condone CM’s activities, anymore. It is still puzzling that he says he rarely works with him now. This indicates that he STILL occasionally works with him. My question is “doing what and why?”

    I did not disclose much of Jacob’s email. The nature of his reply was clear (to me) that he wanted me to disclose the parts above to make his position known to all the DTW readers.

    Regarding Jacob’s communication skills, you may be correct. I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt unless proved otherwise.

  19. Sherry B. says:

    I have found, for the most part, that those who are rabidly ANTI Pre Trib, are so because they KNOW that they are NOT going to be raptured, since they are usually not even true believers in Christ Jesus! They are “ministers of Satan” trying to masquerade as ministers of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, and their sole purpose is to try to confuse and dishearten real Christians in the faith. Their end will be according to their deeds as Jude tells us!

    We are to be watching for Jesus Christ! Even though God’s Word gives us description of the antichrist, NOWHERE in God’s Word are we directed to be looking for him nor the false prophet. The 144,000 Jewish converts will be the ones WARNING the world about the identity of the antichrist and false prophet, since they are those who will spread the Gospel AFTER we, the TRUE BELIEVERS, have been RAPTURED well before the Day of the Lord, otherwise known as The Tribulation.

    I firmly believe that there will be a period of time between the rapture and the beginning of the Trib, because certain events must happen in the world before the Trib begins. There must be something significant as per Gog/Magog war(Ezekiel 38-39) for antichrist to arise as a “savior” and confirm the 7 year covenant with Israel. When one looks at Israel today, they are NOWHERE near living “peacefully in unwalled villages”!

    If we take God’s Word for exactly what He says, we can see from the prophets of the O.T. that there is a chronology of end time events, some of which are already occurring today, at the very least, their “set-up”. In Revelation. Chapter 4, we see those raptured Believers as part of the 24 elders, white-robed,crowned, and seated on thrones. The first Seal judgment is the antichrist, and he doesn’t even appear until Revelation 6.

    False teachers and false peophets abound today- a sure sign that our Lord’s coming for us is very near. Chalk up J.P. as just another one of these, and it is not our worry who the AC or FP are. We will NOT be “earth dwellers” when they make their debut on Earth’s stage!

  20. Redeemed says:

    Sherry B., you are right, our concern is not to arm ourselves with pointers on how to recognize the Anti-Christ. Mr. Prasch believes that it is dangerous not to alert the Body of Christ and prepare them for the Anti-Christ.

    Genuine believers can have honest differences in eschatology, but I do believe that Satan is making a concerted effort to rob the Church of the Blessed Hope and preoccupy the Church with worldly preparations instead of focusing on redeeming the time.

  21. Micheline says:

    Sherry, I believe you are spot on.

    We should look to Jesus more than we do to who the AC will be. We are wasting precious time by spending more time in discovering the dark side instead of the light.

    I personally hope there is still enough time, I still have soooooo much to learn. There is soooo much information that I can’t learn quick enough. I have this constant hunger for what God says but I’m struggling at the moment with all the information. I read the Word, understand it but later can’t recall where I’ve read it. I know, baby steps, patience, persistance and lotsa prayers.

  22. Andy says:

    I have found that many that are against the pre-trib position, feel that the church needs to “suffer more”. And my response to them on that is, they themselves personally are welcome to do all the suffering they want to. They can move to Iran or North Korea and do some open street preaching, and I can assure them that will bring them the sufficiency of the suffering they seek. In fact they’d be doing the church a favor by preaching in two spiritually dark places as those.

    But the Bible makes it clear that the rapture is pre-trib.

  23. Micheline

    >> I read the Word, understand it but later can’t recall where I’ve read it.

    You’re not the only one 🙂 I make notes and forget where I put my notes.

  24. Micheline says:

    Debs, hahaha, tooo true!!! I loose my glasses too!!!! Thank goodness I can’t have anymore children, I would have misplaced the poor child on a regular basis. 🙂

  25. Elisheva QUICK says:

    [deleted – I can’t make out want you are trying to say and it’s annoying – Go defend JP to the death.]

  26. Soooooooo to try and appease Pre-Tribulationists Moriel Ministries has an article about Pre-Tribulationism. This is a fascinating trait that Jacob Prasch has; to speak out of two mouths, we can also call it fence hopping; hops the fence to say one thing, then hops the fence to say another, then hops the fence to say one thing, then hops the fence to say another.

    So here is the report from Moriel’ site on 11th Nov 2012

    It matters none because of the countless newsletters Moriel have sent out teaching a ‘partial rapture’ theology, denoucing pre-tribulationism – Partial rapture theology is a doctrine that states only OBEDIENT Christians will make it into the rapture, disobedient/backsliden Christians will miss the rapture and go through the tribulation.

    No the article release on the 11th Nov, sounds much better than what JP said in Shadows of the Beast (but it’s not important really, because we know JP only says what he wants YOU to hear at the time)

    BUT HOWS THIS, this report includes this:

    “The good expositors, scholars, and authors in the contemporary church worth reading are those like Warren Wiersbe , David Hocking, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Paul and Chuck Smith, Ray Yungen, Warren Smith, Tony Pearce, Bill Randles, Jack Hibbs, Philip Powell , Kay Arthur, Johanna Michaelsen, and Dave Hunt.”

    Although he does recommend Harry Ironside:

    “Read the classics such as AW Tozer, John Bunyan, Harry Ironside, Andrew Murray, FB Meyer, Francis Schaffer, Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, JC Rile, Alfred Edersheim”,

    Um, *coughs and splatters*

    What a mishmash of Moriel’s “trusted” teachers. Let’s look at these:

    Warren Wiersbe (An ecumenist), David Hocking (is questionable) Arnold Fruchtenbaum (He has gone ecumenical) Paul (brother of Chuck Smith and an apologist for Calvary Chapels) and of course the infamous Chuck Smith (false teaching galore), Jack Hibbs(Calvery Chapal, in with Chuck Smith, see: “A Christian Nation”, a David Barton fan (who is a Dominionist) Kay Arthur (Ecumenical)

    Then the next list:

    “Read the classics such as AW Tozer (I put a question mark at his name because he lists every possible Mystic as being great Christians. Bernard of Clairvaux, John of the Cross, Molinos, Nicholas of Cusa, John Fletcher, David Brainerd, Reginal Heber, Evan Roberts, General Booth, Teresa of Avila and Madame Guyon,Meister Eckhart, Thomas Traherne, Richard Rolle, William Law, Walter Hilton, Francis de Sales, Jakob Boehme and Gerhart Tersteegen etc, etc, etc! ) John Bunyan, Harry Ironside, Andrew Murray (Rise of modern charismatic movement, tongues and other phenomenon were reported at Andrew Murrays meetings, strongly advocated that the baptism with the Spirit was a second experience distinct from conversion) FB Meyer, Francis Schaffer, Charles Spurgeon (Calvinist) John Wesley (Arminian, Wesleyanism provided the seeds for the modern Methodist movement, the Holiness movement, Pentecostalism, the Charismatic Movement), JC Rile (should be J.C. Ryle, and is a Calvinist) Alfred Edersheim

    So as we can see, this is exactly what one would expect from a double-minded man such as Jacob Prasch.

    It is dangerous to align oneself with a laundry list of teachers, either living or dead. It shows a lack of Bereanship. Then we have to ask the question, where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

    I am not at all impressed by this even if he does list Dr. Harry. I don’t think Dr. Harry Ironside would be at all pleased.

    Previously I mentioned on another comment where Moriel says,

    Read Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, D.L. Moody, George Whitefield – the people whom God used to bring revival to Britain.” —http://www.moriel.org/Teaching/Online/Death_of_Absalom/07_Grace.html

    Here Moriel lists D.L. Moody as someone worthwhile reading. D.L. Moody believed in the ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’ as something separate from conversion. He got his ideas from his co-worker, Dr. Torrey.

    Moody said, “The Holy Ghost coming down with power is distinct and separate from conversion. Instead of urging a convert to seek the gift of the Holy Ghost, that he may be anointed for the work, we let him sleep. This world would soon be converted if all such were baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

  27. ANYONE attached to Chuck Missler is in trouble, whether it be they work for him, are friends with him, or they like him.

    Chuck Missler is PARTNERED with Tim LaHaye, here is the 2007 one minute video clip of Chuck Missler announcing his partnership with Tim LaHaye –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qFY-5ZV9ghM

    Tim LaHaye took money from the antichrist Sun Myung Moon and told Sun Myung Moon “Your suffering will cleanse the sins of America”, here is the DOCUMENTED proof –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/06/tim-lahayes-satanic-flow-chart-with.html

    Sun Myung Moon–>Tim LaHaye–>Chuck Missler–>Jacob Prasch–>Anyone who associates with Jacob Prasch

    2 Corinthians 6:16-17 – “And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.”

    Romans 16:17 – “Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID them.”

    Where is the Holy Spirit’s discernment with Jacob Prasch if he claims to be friends with a guy who is attached to an antichrist?

    Answer – Jacob Prasch doesn’t have the Holy Spirit and his lifelong arrogance he just displayed for us is PROOF –

    “a babbling religious crackpot and a cheap mouthed hooligan”

    “an ignorant , spiritually deluded buffoon like John Chingford.”

    Acts 5:32 – “…the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him.”

    Obedience (Love of Jesus – John 14:15)= the Holy Ghost

    Jacob Prasch and all his phony “theology teacher” friends may be able to slice & dice scripture up one side and down the other, but they lack obedience to The Word Of God who is our Lord & Savior (Rev 19:13).

    The phony “merchandi$ing di$cernment mini$trie$” are showing their bad fruit with their avoidance to expose Chuck Missler and his attachment to the antichrist’s Tim LaHaye and more recently exposed, William Welty.

    William Welty is business partners with the occultic Disney. Here is the DOCUMENTED PROOF –

    July 20, 2012 –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/07/chuck-misslers-swansat-linked-to-beast.html

    July 23, 2012 –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-chuck-missler-william-welty.html

    July 27, 2012 –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/07/hey-dicernment-minitrie-what-about.html

    Here is an article where we sent the phony “merchandi$ing di$cernment mini$try” Eric Barger an email to his own article exposing Chuck Missler’s attachment to Disney that shows Eric Barger speaking out against Disney, AND HE DID NOTHING!!!

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/08/will-eric-barger-take-stand-on-missler.html

    These guys are in it for the MONEY!!!

  28. Elisheva QUICK says:

    Criticism is to be done for the purpose of RESTORATION, not condemnation .
    There is a fine line and balance between legalism, fault finding and necessary protection.
    “Sela”

  29. Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    Debs,

    I have been following this thread on and off.
    Jesus said:
    Luke 10:21 “In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.”
    That comforts me (I would dare say us), who am a nobody.
    Let’s pray for JP and all “The good expositors, scholars, and authors in the contemporary church” that they will descend from their pride and become as “babes”, that they may see.

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