At Boshoff from CRC Church shows us how Pharisees went about ‘Honoring’ God

At BoshoffThe recent invitation to debate sent to Mr. At Boshoff by Dion Knoesen was as a result of the below notice sent out by CRC, to their members and undersigned by Mr. Boshoff.

This notice was dated 16 November 2010 with the Subject: “Honour God”

We wish to state the reason for the intended debate with Mr. Boshoff.  We hope to either persuade Mr. Boshoff to give heed to proper rendering of the Scriptures for his own benefit and also to benefit those who are under his shepherding.

1Ti 4:16    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

On the CRC website it s mentioned that Mr. Boshoff studied at “A Bible College” for three years fulltime. Unfortunately no name is given to this Bible College.

In the last paragraph on this webpage the it says the following:

“He has been described as focussed, passionate and fervent in his hunger for the Word of God and explosive in his dynamic teaching of it. His positively dynamic and practical messages are equaled in their refreshing relevancy to their bold authenticity and doctrinal accuracy. “

When looking exegetically into his notice “Honour God” we have to question his “authenticity and doctrinal accuracy.”

For informative purposes the quoted Scriptures by Mr. Boshoff is discussed below in RED

As Paul wrote:

Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;


Email sent out from CRC Church to it’s congregation:

 width=From: CRC Christian Church
Sent: 16 November 2010 01:00 PM

Honour God

“Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19

The two most important books in your life are the Bible and your cheque “book”. The Bible is the revelation of God’s love for us and our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God.

In Joshua 7 we read about the only place where Israel failed when they crossed into the Promised Land. The only place where Israel suffered defeat because they tampered with the gold and silver (the devoted things) that belonged to God.

Your tithe is Holy to God. Lev 27:30. There are two principles that dominate throughout the Old and New Testament: First fruits get given first and; seed time and harvest. It is God’s purpose that should drive us to give.

In Acts 5 we read about Ananias and Sapphira that financially stood in the way of God’s purpose and suffered great calamity. God does not curse you; your actions open your life to either failure or success.

Does Jesus endorse tithing? Of course He does. In both Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42; Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing. When you tithe you shouldn’t even see that 10 percent. It’s God’s. Also we read in Heb 7 that tithing was before the law. It was a part of the Abrahamic covenant that still exists and is fulfilled in Jesus. He tithed to Malchizedek (high priest) 430 years before before Moses came with the law.

Your allegiance, your tithe, should be given to the church where you are planted. Mal 3 speaks about the coming of Jesus and actually the Holy Spirit. In this we see that we should bring the tithe to the “storehouse” which is your church. Give to God what is God’s. It is God who should be honoured first because He is the source of all your income. Matt 22:17-21

We work to build the kingdom of God, we shouldn’t work to meet our own needs. People can frustrate the work of God by withholding resources. Let’s evaluate ourselves and rectify places where maybe we’ve neglected to honour God with our finances. If you start today it is never too late.

This past week-end we saw 470 people giving their lives to Jesus. We are here to possess the Promised Land. Thank you to every one of you for working hard throughout the year and inviting your world to CRC.

We had a fantastic harvest event in Cape Town last week. We saw the entire auditorium filled to the max. Ps. Aidan and Sharon are doing a great work in that city. I believe many good things are still heading our way in Cape Town.

They have begun to lay the foundations for the Pretoria Building Project. We are so excited to see how things come together as we follow the instructions of God. As we are now in the time when we have to pay the contractors large sums of money every month, I urge you to give the money you pledged or whatever extra the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

If you still want to contribute please e-mail finance[at]crc.org.za

The Kids’ Party is only a week away. Please take part in this as we are going to make the day special for over 15 000 underprivileged children. If you would like to volunteer or make a donation please contact 051-xxx xxxx.

Be Blessed,

At Boshoff


A Critique on how to “Honor God” written by At Boshoff – Critique notes in red

“Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19 (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:   It is utterly disappointing to notice that Eccl. 10:19 is cited and interpreted in the way At Boshoff has done so in his notice to the congregation at CRC.

When reading what King Solomon wrote in the book of Ecclesiastes the basic understanding and proper rendering of the Scripture quoted is in fact quite the opposite, as indicated here by Mr. Boshoff.

The passage in context from the first verse (In fact the first chapter of Ecclesiastes) has to do with what the foolish do and the evils resulting from their actions in this world, which also includes verse 10.

Solomon’s message is one of vanity to all that are under the sun, which includes “Money is the answer to all things” What Solomon actually means in writing this is that man’s trust in money which according to man answers all things, is vanity. Their trust and security should be in God and not in money.

It is vanity of fools who rely on their money for all things instead of God.

Psa 62:8  Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.

Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

Psa 62:10  Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

Psa 62:11  God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.

Mar 10:24  And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

1Ti 6:17  Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life

Why do so many pastors not put their faith in God but rather exploit the people, after all they are always accusing those who do not have money as being without faith – yet when they need the money they rely on the people instead of their faith??

The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.]

The two most important books in your life are the Bible and your cheque “book”. The Bible is the revelation of God’s love for us and our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Where is this revelation in the Bible, that our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God??

The revelation I find is that our love for the Lord Jesus, is to keep His commandments not the love of filthy lucre. Our love is manifested in our obedience to Him, our trust in Him alone not in mammon and riches.

There are only two important books and that is the Bible and having your name written in the Book of Life.]

In Joshua 7 we read about the only place where Israel failed when they crossed into the Promised Land. The only place where Israel suffered defeat because they tampered with the gold and silver (the devoted things) that belonged to God. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Ouch!!! First of all it was not Israel who “tampered with the gold and silver” but one man named Achan the son of Camri who had stolen some of the spoils of looted booty of Jericho. (This also had nothing to do with his own money, silver or gold or any of his personal belongings which is referred to here Mr. Boshoff in quoting Joshua 7 for gaining money from New Testament congregants.)

Yes, Israel as a corporate entity was punished as result of the theft by Achan, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the personal wealth individuals were given by God, which were then somehow to the interpretation of this part of Scripture withheld from God.

Firstly this was in disobedience to God, because God placed a ban on personal gain from the looted goods.

Secondly theft was the cause of the punishment – taking things not given to you by God.

Thirdly it was the covetousness of Achan that was addressed in the punishment. Covetousness is what God warns us against throughout the Scriptures.

A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.

To be under the shepherding of someone who does not understand context and doctrine or does understand context and twists it out of context, is not promoted by Scripture:

1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]

Your tithe is Holy to God. Lev 27:30. There are two principles that dominate throughout the Old and New Testament: First fruits get given first and; seed time and harvest. It is God’s purpose that should drive us to give. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Some more doctrines lacking regarding the tithe very applicable to the Old Testament. Using this one verse for the purpose of tithing is not sufficient and there were many tithing’s applicable not just one. To understand this tithe there were basically 4 types of tithing in the Old Testament ONLY

a) The tithe to the Levites. Deut.14: 27.

The Levites were the “government” of Israel and due to them not having a share in the land allocated to the rest of the tribes, those allocated land were to use of their produce to give to the Levites.

b) The tithe of the Levites to the Zadokites. Neh.10: 38.

Now this is where Malachi is used to place unnecessary burdens on believers today.

First of all, tithings were purely laws given in the Torah or Old Testament. So commanding and condemning people to tithe today by quoting Malachi 10, is basically going back to the Torah or the Law, putting congregants back under the law.

Secondly the Scriptures used below to state that Jesus endorses tithing are totally out of context with regard to tithing and God’s Word in fact it refers to this as works by the Pharisees to justify themselves, something God loathes. In Fact God says woe to them that tithe! – will explain when we discuss these passages.

Thirdly when Malachi 3:10 is read and understood in context it refers to the tithe in a) above, the tithe in Deut 14:27 which was received from the tribes and given to the Levites. The Levites in turn were to skim off a tithe from this tithe (Neh10:38) to give to the priests attending to temple duties. So it was the Levites who were robbing God not the people.

It is interesting when reading the “Works Of Josephus” the Sadducees were the rich of the day who were using the tithes to enrich themselves. Josephus admits to this as he himself was a Sadducee.

Historically it is proven that the Sadducees were extremely rich due to the financial contributions by ordinary people who were forced to pay tribute.

There is no new thing under the son. Today’s Sadducees and Pharisees apply the same rule. The flock enriches them as result of their own rendering and contortions of Scripture.

The clergy were robbing God of tithes not the people, hence the rebuke to them in Malachi 10.

Have any of the Malachi 10 promoters ever read the following to any of their congregations?

Mic 3:10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.

Mic 3:11  The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

Mic 3:12  Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

The third type of tithe:

c) The tithe toward the annual Holy Days. Deut. 14: 22 – 26.

3 Times a year the Israelites were to attend Holy Feasts at Jerusalem and for this they needed to set aside a tithe of their harvests etc. If they were too far from Jerusalem they could sell the targeted tithed articles and turn it into money. This they would spend upon themselves and the Levites once they arrive in Jerusalem.

d) The tithe to the less fortunate. Deut.14: 28 – 29.

This is also a tithe to obviously assist the needy in the Old Testament.

Although a tithe in the New Testament is never mentioned in this regard there are many Scriptures which clearly say that the needy ought to be cared for.

When one searches for the word “Tithe” in the New Testament there are  two references one in Matt. 23:23 and the other in Luke 11:42 which notably is quoted by Mr. Boshoff and will be discussed.]

In Acts 5 we read about Ananias and Sapphira that financially stood in the way of God’s purpose and suffered great calamity. God does not curse you; your actions open your life to either failure or success. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Who is man that he is able to stand in the way of God’s purpose? Is God dependant on man?

Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

It is agreeable that one’s actions open you to success or failure, but to use Acts 5 as yardstick for failure and success is totally out of context.

I know of many people struggling financially who humbly adores God and has extreme credence in the Lord Jesus, but who realize that their own actions caused their calamity. Those being poor and suffering financially in this life without rejecting the Lord Jesus who are willing to endure to the end will be first in the Kingdom.

Although there are certain quotations by the MHCC I do not fully agree with the MHCC renders the following understanding with regard to Ananias and Sapphira which I could not have worded better:

The sin of Ananias and Sapphira was, that they were ambitious of being thought eminent disciples, when they were not true disciples. Hypocrites may deny themselves, may forego their worldly advantage in one instance, with a prospect of finding their account in something else. They were covetous of the wealth of the world, and distrustful of God and his providence. They thought they might serve both God and mammon. They thought to deceive the apostles. The Spirit of God in Peter discerned the principle of unbelief reigning in the heart of Ananias. But whatever Satan might suggest, he could not have filled the heart of Ananias with this wickedness had he not been consenting. The falsehood was an attempt to deceive the Spirit of truth, who so manifestly spoke and acted by the apostles. The crime of Ananias was not his retaining part of the price of the land; he might have kept it all, had he pleased; but his endeavouring to impose upon the apostles with an awful lie, from a desire to make a vain show, joined with covetousness. But if we think to put a cheat upon God, we shall put a fatal cheat upon our own souls. How sad to see those relations who should quicken one another to that which is good, hardening one another in that which is evil! And this punishment was in reality mercy to vast numbers. It would cause strict self-examination, prayer, and dread of hypocrisy, covetousness, and vain-glory, and it should still do so. It would prevent the increase of false professors. Let us learn hence how hateful falsehood is to the God of truth, and not only shun a direct lie, but all advantages from the use of doubtful expressions, and double meaning in our speech.]

Does Jesus endorse tithing? Of course He does. In both Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42; Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing. When you tithe you shouldn’t even see that 10 percent. It’s God’s. Also we read in Heb 7 that tithing was before the law. It was a part of the Abrahamic covenant that still exists and is fulfilled in Jesus. He tithed to Malchizedek (high priest) 430 years before before Moses came with the law. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Is Mr. Boshoff rightfully dividing the Word here?

To understand Matthew 23:23 effectively one needs to read from verse 1!

These were the Words of the Lord Jesus Himself. The Lord Jesus was warning against the Pharisees and rebuked them for putting credence or weight to their tithes. The Lord Jesus says in Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Lord Jesus most certainly does not say that tithing is the most basic thing in this Scripture. In fact He says woe to those that tithe and ignore the important things that God wants. The Lord Jesus in fact says that it is NOT the most basic thing. He says the “weightier” matters are more basic than the tithe.

Luke 11:42 Again out of context and basically the same rebuke goes out to the Pharisees who promoted and relied on tithing as the basic thing at the time of the Temple in Jerusalem.

I do not find: “Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing” What I do find is another rebuke to the Pharisees and Scribes who felt very secure in basic tithing: Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! For ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

What I have found in CRC when I used to go there was that they were promoting security in tithing, but the more important and weightier matters such as keeping the Lords commandments in our love for Him, I personally never heard in any sermon by Mr. Boshoff.

Is this not precisely why the Lord Jesus in His Word rebukes the Pharisees?

In Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 the focus is more on the “weightier” matters than the tithe.

A very repetitive part of Scripture used by Mr. Boshoff is Hebrews 7

Gen: 14:18: And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the highest God.

Gen: 14:19: And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Gen: 14:20: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand.  And he gave him tithes of all.

This is to “prove” that tithing was established before the time of Moses, the Torah or law and that tithes have to be given to the priest. To find out what the Melchizedek tithe meant one has to not only read this passage, but also read on to verses 22 & 23.

From verse 18 – 20 it is clear that this was not Abraham’s belongings which were tithed, but rather the booty or loot he had gathered from conquering the enemy.

Gen:14:22: And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Gen: 14:23: That I will not take from a thread even to a shoe latchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

Although he gave away 10% of the booty, he stated that he did not even want any of it, because it was not his.

It is also interesting to note that this was a ONCE OFF event, which never took place again.

Ninety percent and more of Scripture quoted for the purposes of pleading for tithes are taken out of context today. God says let few be teachers, because those teachers teaching the flock will be held accountable for what they teach.

A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.

James:3:1: My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.]

Your allegiance, your tithe, should be given to the church where you are planted. Mal 3 speaks about the coming of Jesus and actually the Holy Spirit. In this we see that we should bring the tithe to the “storehouse” which is your church. Give to God what is God’s. It is God who should be honoured first because He is the source of all your income. Matt 22:17-21 (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Reading Mal 10 from verse 1 rather suggests that the audience addressed by God were the priests as already discussed. The “storehouse” is definitely not the New Testament church. The New Testament church is the bride of Christ and not a building built with brick and mortar.]

We work to build the kingdom of God, we shouldn’t work to meet our own needs. People can frustrate the work of God by withholding resources. Let’s evaluate ourselves and rectify places where maybe we’ve neglected to honour God with our finances. If you start today it is never too late.

[Note:  The Lord Jesus calls for heed to doctrine rather than finances and I do hope that Mr. Boshoff would rather be obedient to the Lord in the weightier matters.]

This past week-end we saw 470 people giving their lives to Jesus. We are here to possess the Promised Land. Thank you to every one of you for working hard throughout the year and inviting your world to CRC.

[Note:  Figures do not impress God. One such an example is: Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The quote Mr. Boshoff uses in Matthew 23 was discussed already and to conclude, using this verse as a basis for endorsing tithing is basically in support of what the Pharisees promoted – That Mr. Boshoff is teaching here and to the congregation is absolutely the same what the Pharisees were doing.

What is important however and of grave concern, are the proselytes made by CRC. This is also found in Matthew 23 the chapter in which the verse occurs that Mr. Boshoff uses to preach the diametric opposite to what the Lord Jesus says in this chapter: Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16  Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?]

We had a fantastic harvest event in Cape Town last week. We saw the entire auditorium filled to the max. Ps. Aidan and Sharon are doing a great work in that city. I believe many good things are still heading our way in Cape Town.

[Note:  I suppose it is not worth mentioning all those pastors and lay persons who have left CRC and would like to see Mr. Boshoff repent of his ways.]

They have begun to lay the foundations for the Pretoria Building Project. We are so excited to see how things come together as we follow the instructions of God. As we are now in the time when we have to pay the contractors large sums of money every month, I urge you to give the money you pledged or whatever extra the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

If you still want to contribute please e-mail finance@crc.org.za

The Kids’ Party is only a week away. Please take part in this as we are going
to make the day special for over 15 000 underprivileged children. If you would like to volunteer or make a donation please contact 051-525 2883.

[Note:  It is agreeable that feeding under privileged Children is a very good work, yet the concern remains what these poor children are being fed spiritually when such doctrine as discussed here is being preached.

Hitler once said that if the hearts of the children are won, the next generation will be won.

It is also fact the “Church” of Rome has built a multitude of schools and hospitals and proclaims ex-Cathedra that winning the minds of children before age 7 will ensure that they will be won permanently for the Mother “Church”.  I see the same happening at CRC so feeding children is an outward appearance coaxing them into a greater deception of being taught wrong doctrine

Remember what James wrote; if the correct faith is dead the works mean nothing.

It is the correct doctrine that will ensure the correct faith – this is why the works may be more detrimental to the children in the longer term.]

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

I love how almost overnight most prominent false teachers became Drs. Now they show off their title as if to say, “Don’t ever question me, I am a Dr. I know what is the truth, you are nothing and know nothing, however you are good enough to give me all your money”

Worried

Yes Deborah, “Trust Me, I’m a Dr”. Emphasis on Me as the “most important”. I have it on good authority that he said on his brothers funeral that satan touched his family — now he (satan) is going to pay … and that CRC is about to “invade the whole of Bfn and SA.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Worried

>> and that CRC is about to “invade the whole of Bfn and SA.

Yes they are spreading and I think you are right that they are going to over take SA, they have done a solid job in the UK.

Sick of it

Yes. Regarding the retention rate: it always amuses me that people who attend CRC are so proud of the “hundreds that get saved” every Sunday. Hundreds (sometimes the word used is “thousands”) every Sunday, 3 services per Sunday, ministry going for, let’s say, 20 years… Gee, the whole of Bloemfontein should be “saved” and in church by now. Perhaps even the whole country!! No, dear friends, because those responding to the altar calls are clueless as to what it means to become a disciple of Christ. It’s not something they are adequately taught there. They are emotionally manipulated into making a decision which they do not understand. And when they look back on it, unfortunately, they will be confused and/or cynical. Which means more damage is being done on a Sunday than any “salvation”…

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Sick of it

You are so spot on. And as you say, the number that supposedly get saved at these services you would think the whole of Bloemfontein would be Christian by now. But it’s not the case, it’s all false. Maybe a handful really do find Jesus Christ but when the Holy Spirit opens their eyes to the truth, they will put on their running takkies and make a b-line for the door.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

A Calvinist with a nasty disposition (This PRIDEFILL ELECT threatened that he would hack DTW if we did not remove his comments) wrote,

Simon said:

I know the Lord always guides the sincere seeker to Himself.

Sorry Simon, there’s no such thing as a “sincere seeker”.

no one understands; no one seeks for God.
– Romans 3:11 ESV

God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.

They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.
– Psalm 53:2-3 ESV

Calvinists love to use the ESV. Are you a Calvinist? Calvinists love to quote certain passages from Scriptures and ignore the rest. Are you a Calvinist? God also says,

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jeremiah 29:13)

God will never tell us to seek Him if we are unable to seek Him.

I agree with Simon who said, “I know the Lord always guides the sincere seeker to Himself.”

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

A Calvinist with a nasty disposition called Gabriël (This person threatened that he would hack DTW if we did not remove his comments)

Tom (Discerning the World) wrote:

Calvinists love to quote certain passages from Scriptures and ignore the rest

The context of the passage you quoted, Jeremiah 29:13, has predestination stamped all over it, it is also directed to a specific people, at a specific point in history. To apply it in general, would be using tactics used by the likes of At Boshoff, claiming that Galatians 3:14 implies the blessings of Abraham to all believers. I’m convinced that Paul was quite clear in his use of blessing (singular) provided by the explanation that follows; as was Jeremiah in who his letter was addressed to:

These are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the surviving elders of the exiles, and to the priests, the prophets, and all the people, whom Nebuchadnezzar had taken into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon. — Jeremiah 29:1 ESV

If you are asking whether I’m a Calvinist because I see the evidence in the Bible for predestination, then yes, yes I’m a Calvinist, I might as well be an Ariminian at the same time. I don’t believe in a tiny god who has no foreknowledge about the outcome of future events, or what decisions people will ultimately make.

Calvinists believe that because man is completely dead (like a corpse or cadaver) in sin and transgressions he is completely UNABLE to seek and to respond in faith to God’s calling so that God, in a sovereign unilateral way, must first regenerate his elect monergistically, and grant them faith a a gift so that they may seek Him. The condition for seeking and finding Him is to seek Him with all the heart which, of course, involves free-will which is another thing Calvinists deny man possesses. So to say that Jeremiah 29:13 has predestination stamped all over it is rather silly.

How you can bring Jeremiah 29:13 and Galatians 3:14 together to prove predestination only you will know. Galatians 3:14 is addressed to all Gentiles and not Jews. Abraham was saved through faith (not predestination or election) before he was circumcised, and in the very same manner Gentiles do not need to be circumcised in order to be saved. The context in these passages is circumcision and the way to be saved – through faith and not something you do in the flesh like circumcision. Hence the verse, “This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3). So again, how you can see predestination in these passages only you alone will know.

Gabriel wrote,

If you are asking whether I’m a Calvinist because I see the evidence in the Bible for predestination, then yes, yes I’m a Calvinist, I might as well be an Ariminian at the same time. I don’t believe in a tiny god who has no foreknowledge about the outcome of future events, or what decisions people will ultimately make.

³Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, ⁴even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love ⁵he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, ⁶to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. ⁷In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, ⁸which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight ⁹making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ ¹⁰as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

¹¹In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, ¹²so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. ¹³In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, ¹⁴who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. — Paul, Ephesians 1:3-14 ESV

The above passage should also serve as further explanation of Galatians 3:14, for those deceived by the likes of At Boshoff, and Allan Bagg.

The Calvinist’s view of God’s foreknowledge is warped and totally unbiblical. According to the Westminster Confession of faith He knows everything before it happens because He ordained everything to happen.

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Do you really believe this nonsense? Dr James White, one of today’s most avid promulgators of Calvinism believes that God ordained little babies to be raped (Read here). This is the idolatrous god (not God) whom you and all Calvinists worship.

Ephesians 1:3-14 does not deal with predestination unto salvation. It deals with predestination unto blessing. Those whom He foreknew before the foundation of the world would respond in faith to his Gospel and as a consequence of their faith (not election) be saved, he predestined to be blessed in Christ with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places and to receive an inheritance in Christ.

It is clear that you have a very dangerous misunderstanding of God’s love and what election really means. I will answer the rest of your comment in a follow-up comment.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

A Calvinist with a nasty disposition called Gabriël (This person threatened that he would hack DTW if we did not remove his comments)

I am so pleased you quoted Matthew 24:24-25 and Revelation 13:7-8 because in doing so you have proved that Calvinism is a false religion run by false prophets and teachers. The ESV (A Calvinistic Bible) horrendously twists the meaning of Revelation 13:7-8 which proves that Calvinism is not from God. Let’s see what the KJV and some of the other English Bibles have translated it. But first let’s quote the verse from the ESV again,

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (Rev 13:7-8)

As you can see the phrase “before the foundation of the world” is used in conjunction with those whose names were not written in the book of life and therefore Calvinists just assume that the elects’ names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. That is NOT what this verse is saying. Here’s the correct translation.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:7-8).

From this it is abundantly clear that the phrase “before the foundation of the world” refers to the Lamb who was slain and not the so-called elect.

Indeed, to use some of your words, “If you want to reject the truth, you’ll also have to reject these writings, and their authors from whichever version of the Bible you prefer to read. It seems, at least to me, that they have made their stance on the matter clear.”

In fact, all the other well-known translations of the Bible link “before the foundation of the world” to the Lamb and not the elect.

I would suggest you renounce Calvinism as a heretical teaching and turn to Jesus for you salvation.

Here now are some of the other Bible translations of Revelation 13:7-8

7 He was further permitted to wage war on God’s holy people (the saints) and to overcome them. And power was given him to extend his authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,

8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] [a]from the foundation of the world. (AMP).

7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. (NIV)

As you can see Calvinism is as much a heresy as the CRC Church of At Boshoff.

Maryann

I wonder how the Calvinist reconcile Matthew 25:41 where Jesus says that Hell was created for the devil and his angels. This verse alone refutes their false teaching!

Maryann

I heard a preacher say (I don’t remember who) that everyone’s name is entered in the book of life from the foundation of the world. If that person never receives Jesus as their Lord and Savior during their life, upon their death their name is removed from the book of life. In Psalm 69:28 David is asking for his enemies names to be blotted out of the book of life. Moses mentions the book of life in Exodus 32:32 In Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book” These verses alone refute the Calvinist teaching of election.

JD

I had no idea the ESV promoted Calvinistic doctrine, this is disappointing as I have used the ESV many times. Are there any other instances where the proper translation is twisted to promote a Calvinistic perspective? I’ve noticed other translations also that construct Revelation 13:8 the same way, ones of good repute like the NASB.

There is one passage that has stuck with me that absolutely flies in the face of Calvinism no matter how you look at it

Jeremiah 14:14

“Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.”

How can the god of Calvinists, the supposed author of all things who predestined and approved every deed that has ever happened in the world, say that he had nothing to do with the false prophets of Jeremiah’s time, and even plainly state that they prophesied falsely of their own free will, the things of their own heart? Hmm!

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

JD

Many of the contributors are explicitly Calvinistic. This is the Oversight Committee: Wayne Grudem, J. I. Packer, C. John Collins Thomas R. Schreiner, Justin Taylor

Sick of it

CRC Bloemfontein Livestream Sunday 16 Aug, 9am:

Watch and weep from minute 40 onwards…

Why do you take such unbiblical nonsense, spoken with such arrogance, from your pastor, CRC?

You are called to be Berean: search the scriptures and bring your concerns! There will be no “shutting up”…

michael barnard

i bet you feel like an idiot now that the church is built to the glory of GOD and reaching the lost every Sunday, what change have you made other than puffing yourself up with your “superior” doctrines, please lol what a joke. your just a talker man keep talking.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Michael barnard

Your tirade is so typical of someone who likes to smear God’s doctrines with contempt.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. (2 Jonn 1:9-11)

You are not winning souls to Christ. You are leading them away from Him.

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Pro 16:25)

גבריאל

At Boshoff may be reaching the lost every Sunday, yet he brings them no closer to salvation in Jesus Christ.

@Michael Barnard, I’m not a trained psychologist but it seems that you have strong feelings of superiority. It must feel exhilarating to be part of something bigger than yourself, too bad that you’re willing to sacrifice sound doctrine in exchange for it. When all that is concealed will be made known, the joke will be on you. The Scriptures are clear on the heresies known as the “prosperity gospel” and “word of faith”, both which At advocates.

If you’re attending CRC to hear a feel-good message from At every Sunday, by which he tells you that you have the right to demand health, wealth and prosperity from a “higher being” (rub the genie lamp); why not consult the source of At’s “enlightenment” and buy the “The Secret” DVD http://www.thesecret.tv/? You’ll have all the “benefits” of attending CRC at a tiny fraction of the cost, and hear “the message” as often as you desire.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte (convert), and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.” – Jesus Christ, Matthew 23:15

Hynro

Thank you for speaking the truth to people.

Glads

People you can critize and judge all you want, we are not going anywhere – as CRC we have a mandate and that’s “to win the lost at any cost” (Matthew 28:16-19)

But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
Acts 5:39.

There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.
Proverbs 21:30

Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’

I hear your hearths people, you guys have the right to be concern. But what will be of significance is that you guys start your own church and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and getting the lost saved. Since we who attend Church at CRC are “deceived” (damned to go to hell), why don’t guys make that effort and save the other people.
Come on people I dare you to start your own churches – you guys are now theologians , you can do – yappy to you guys.

But as for Me I resolve to know no theology but Christ being crucified.
Jesus does it for me.
CRC – place to be – does it for me.

So comment all your want, I dare you in The Lord to throw that stone and see if we care.
Do all you want – you know what’s worse is the fact that you think that your glorifying God, by this rubbish.
You guys are passive man, you hurt, you petty – you are actually those who bring division in great congregations – you know to much and do to little. I won’t be surprise to perceive that some of you have divorce more than 3churches based on you polluted and futile mind sets . It’s often the people who talks the most yet produce no results. Shame!
Poor you guys who are on the mission to save the gospel and people – hey! The gospel stand for itself; it contents for it self. Pharao couldn’t stop, Herod couldn’t stop it, King Agrippa couldn’t stop, not even Saul who by grace became Paul could stop it. And it’s the same with you – you won’t stop the church of Jesus Christ, because the Church is a miracle.
So please people, if in your minds we are deceived – let us be deceive. We won’t answer to you one day, we will answer to Jesus Christ the soon coming King, how I can’t wait for that day.

But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for you know you can trust those who taught you.
2 Timothy 3:14

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things.
Philippians 4:8.

People who come on this side please be careful what you read from these people who post these messages that bring division – for all we know could be people who divorce churches, could be devils, could be people who got hurt at churches. You don’t know these people in person, they don’t even disclose identities because they are cowards. You if you don’t understand anything, go to your own spiritual father and ask for Godly council.
These people are clouds without rain, there is no substance in what they say – we don’t know their track records, who they are and where they came from, in what churches they belong too – we don’t know what they do except for opposing things they no nothing of.
It’s very easy to dismiss something you don’t understand. At CRC we have open policies, we don’t point guns at people and say bring your money take membership, no we don’t manipulate people, we understand the value of humanity and that Christ came to set people free. Come to tithing we will preach the truth, come to purity, holiness etc, we will preach the truth. Because we are not hear to please you, we want to be found in Christ when he returns. The more you criticize us, the more we grow. The more judge us, the more we flourish. The more you throw stones, the stronger we become.

We are a Church that’s radically in love with Jesus Christ and we won’t disappoint Him.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Glads

Would you mind telling us how you were saved?

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Glads

There is a big difference beteen suppossedly getting saved i.e., beliving in Jesus Christ vs getting saved, i.e., beliving in Jesus Christ and following His commandments.

You appear to be the one who just believes in a ‘radical’ Jesus in a radically unbiblical way, but does not do as God tells you. You follow the doctrine of Word of Faith / Latter Rain, this false doctrine is not in the bible. You may as well just be a Seventh Day Adventist or join a Mormon church there is no difference, it’s a false god.

If At Bochoff was around during Jesus Christ’s time He and the disciples would have WARNED AGAINST him that he follows ‘another’ Jesus and another gospel. What would you say then? “Oh Jesus, I hear your hearts people, you guys have the right to be concern..how about you start your own church and leave us alone’.

Glads we help through the insiration of God to save many people out of false doctrines, this means they are saved from going to hell. Something you have a problem with, it appears, you love it that people are on their way to hell. What kind of love is that? No love at all.

Glads

I you for real? Why would I explain my salvation to hypocrites like you! I don’t think I owe you guys any explanation for my hope in Christ – you are saved mos neh?

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV

“It is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict, God’s job to judge and my job to love.”
― Billy Graham.

“No one has it all figured out, especially not the people who are acting like they do and judging you because of it. Pretending to be something you aren’t because you’re trying to please a bunch of judgmental hypocrites and shitheads is not the way to be happy. Living the life you want to live is. It really is that simple.”
― Tucker Max, Assholes Finish First

“Who are you to judge the life I live?
I know I’m not perfect
-and I don’t live to be-
but before you start pointing fingers…
make sure you hands are clean!”
― Bob Marley.

We all have a race to finish people, please run your race to finish – my desire for you is when you graduate and go to be with The Lord, He must say “well done you good and faithful child of mine”.
Jesus is never going to celebrate you when you judge people He died for.
We must remember, the Lords biggest critics was not sinners, His biggest critics was was religious hypocrites.
And I strongly believe that money is a tool that we can use to better lives, and that it is the last thing on The Fathers mind.
Why must we always throw fits when it comes to what we call the least in the Kingdom.
I could sense hatred in some of you people – The Scripture is clear: Matthew 5 – the pure in hearth will see God.
When you judge someone, your hearth isn’t pure.
You must protect your hearts people.
We are all children of God at the end of the day whether prostitute, adulterer, fornicator, greedy person, drunkard, judgmental person.

Again I hear what you guys are posting about CRC – just for a moment think.
What if for a moment what your posting is not God?
Could you be bear the thought that you are responsible for deceiving a lot of people we are still staring out in this great journey.

If CRC is not God inspired, than we will soon be blown away; than God will race people up,who knows His voice.
In the case like David and Saul – when Saul didn’t want to harkened to the voice of God, God replace him with King David.
God is not in trouble. He is no respecter of person, but he accept men from every nation who would worship Him.

I am not saying this arrogantly (TO GOD THE KING OF Kings belong the glory and honor- to Him alone) but in 21years we have planted 90 CRC’s national and internationally – How can it not be God.
Hate us; we love you.
Criticize us we care about.

And we may not understand the whole bible – at least we know He loves us.

Glads

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 10:35.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Glads

Your name calling abilities are superb, where did you learn to do this? From the bible? lol

>> And we may not understand the whole bible – at least we know He loves us.

So you admit you don’t understand the whole bible, interesting. Why? When the Holy Spirit says he leads us into ALL truth, not just some of it. John 16:13

If you are truly born again you WILL understand the bible and all it’s commandments. Tom asked how you were saved because ‘if you read the bible’ it says very clerly that a Christian should be able to explain very easily how they got saved Romans 10-9-10, apparently it’s difficult for you to tell us.

Where you slain in the spirit? Is that how you came to ‘love Jesus’ but not obey His teachings?

Sick of it

It will always be hard for us as Christians to agree on everything, which is why the adage is true that in “non-essentials” we should show “charity” to one another. But I’m afraid the time has come for us all to stop being intellectually dishonest about THIS: Jesus never intended his Gospel to be a show. This lights, camera, action business, this pastor needs to fly overseas 7 times a year to preach (a very basic message which any hundred other preachers in those same flippin’ countries can preach to their own people) business, this elaborate church building business, this giving of ridiculous amounts of money to preachers from first world countries to keep up appearances business, this treating of Christ’s Body like it is ANY OTHER secular business venture business (because, just as some in our government “didn’t join the struggle to be poor”, you didn’t join the ministry to be poor either), would never have had any place in the mind of Jesus when he envisaged His church. Let’s just stop lying to ourselves about that once and for all. It’s sick. It’s insulting to the society in which we live (especially in Africa) – and I don’t care how much “charity” goes on in these so-called Christian circles: the more important question is what is the proportion thereof when compared with the rest of the “business” expenditure – salaries, transport, housing, flights, gifts, etc etc etc.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Glad

Mind telling us what that verse means that you quoted, because quite frankly I am not what YOU are trying to say. I understand the verse, the question is do you.

Glads

[Deleted by DTW: Ok, the name calling is a bit much now. Bye bye now.]

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear sick of it..

It’s the money and the false teaching that goes hand in hand, you always find one with the other. Having said that, you now have the ‘serving humanity types’ who give it all away and still follow false teaching.

Glads love a ridically money hungry ‘Jesus’.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Thanks Glads,

I can see you have no intention whatsoever to obey the Word of God when someone asks you how you were saved.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15).

If you were truly saved you would gladly (excuse the pun Glads) told us how you were saved with meekness and fear. Your anger proves that you refuse to sanctify God in your heart. Please don’t comment here again, at least until you have learned some meekness and fear.

גבריאל

@Glads, am I right to assume that your loyal to At, because you have a “leadership” position in CRC?

If CRC management were confident that no “church” funds have been squandered, they’d be more than willing to make the last 10 years’ financials (audited by an external entity with no relation to CRC) publicly available. (this is common practice for non-profit organisations, but uncommon for for-profit organisations, like CRC, posing as a non-profit organisation).

If At were able to prove that his teachings are in accordance with Scripture, wouldn’t he have taken the opportunity to do so by now, in a public debate/forum? Considering that all the “sermons” are recorded, it’s quite easy to recall exactly what was said. If At truly were a man of God, wouldn’t he be able to destroy any arguments (2 Corinthians 10:5) against his teachings, wouldn’t it be his “apostolic” duty to do so?

I dare you, in the Name of Jesus Christ, to demand reasons for this from your “elders”. (Then determine if the answer is sufficient, and that you’re satisfied)

You claim that people like us, cause division in CRC? If CRC actually were part of the Church, that might have been a problem. We couldn’t care less about discrediting At’s “reputation”, he’s personally taken care of that. We care about the people that are being mislead under false pretenses, and the only way to help them is to separate the wheat (true believers) from the chaff (CRC). The only true cause of division in CRC is that some people attending, are truly saved and the Holy Spirit is guiding them out. The Holy Spirit is from God, and you won’t be able to stop Him.

Maybe CRC will be able to truthfully claim that they are known for “the presence of the Holy Spirit leading people” away from them.

P.S. those of us who don’t fear for the safety of our lives, will be more than willing to make our identities public.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear גבריאל

You said: The only true cause of division in CRC is that some people attending, are truly saved and the Holy Spirit is guiding them out. The Holy Spirit is from God, and you won’t be able to stop Him.

Thank you for your comment, it’s highly appreciated.

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