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WARNING: SDA Evangelistic Drive, AMAZING DISCOVERIES 2010 @ Mosaic Theatre (10 Nov – 4 Dec)

WARNING: SDA Evangelistic Drive, AMAZING DISCOVERIES 2010 @ Mosaic Theatre (10 Nov - 4 Dec)

Amazing DiscoveriesUrgent warning about Seventh Day Adventists (SDA) Evengelistic drive 2010 at the Mosaic Theatre in Randburg from 10 November to 4 December 2010:  AMAZING DISCOVERIES 2010.

The Seventh Day Adventist church currently has adverts on TV (SABC) and Radio (702) regarding a FREE presentation at the Mosaic Theatre on Egypt, Jews and Palestine, the anti-Christ, the universe, etc., and is being promoted as AMAZING DISCOVERIES. They just don’t STATE UPFRONT that this is an evangelistic outreach from the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Beware of Amazing Discoveries: it is a website of the Seventh Day Adventists and these FREE “presentations” are part of their 2010 Evangelistic Drive by John Carter.

Professor Walter J. Veith (from the University of the Western Cape) has been their jewel in their crown for many years. He is seemingly very credible in teaching the Bible, the end times and exposing the Roman Catholic Church. But he is a deceiver because he states that the Roman Catholic Church changed the Sabbath Day from Saturday to Sunday, completely ignoring the Word of God in the book of Acts and how the apostles met on the first day of the week, the day of Jesus’ resurrection.  The Lord Jesus Christ is our Sabbath.

SDA have a gospel of works as well as a false prophetess, Ellen G White. They take the doctrine of the Sabbath keeping to extremes by maintaining that because it’s part of the Ten Commandments, those who do NOT keep the Saturday Sabbath will ultimately take the mark of the beast!  They have their own bible (Clear Word Bible) which is widely used in SDA churches, which contains teachings concocted by Ellen G White.

“We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White’s writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other”.   –Ministry Magazine, Oct. 1981

The following is from the SDA Sandton website:

2. JOHN CARTER CAMPAIGN 10 November – 4 December 2010

The GRC, a group of lay evangelists from the Gauteng region, are partnering with the Carter Report and Hope Channel to present “Amazing Discoveries 2010”. From 10 November until 4 December, people living in the Johannesburg, South Africa, area can attend this campaign at the Mosaic Theatre in Randburg. For the FIRST TIME IN SOUTH AFRICA’S HISTORY, they are planning to storm the city with television ads. The presses will soon be rolling off 500,000 colour brochures, and 100,000 homes will receive a beautiful hand addressed invitation. The campaign will be broadcast LIVE from the Mosaic Theatre via microwave link to Sentech and then to homes and churches on the Ku-band (small dish) satellite system. The TV broadcast will start on Friday night the 12th of November from 20:00 – 21:00 on most nights until the 4th of December. Don’t miss this exciting series.  www.sandtonchurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=37&Itemid=68

The Mosaic church in which the Theatre is located is run by Johan Geyser, Trevor Hudson and Dr Gys du Plessis, with associates Stephan Joubert, Koos van der Merwe, Braam van der Schyff, Theo Geyser and Kola de Klerk. They are linked to the (Mosaic Church in Los Angeles) run by Erwin McManus and the (Mosaic Christian Church in Rocklin California) by Frank and Dyan Colacurcio. Other friends include Bill Hybels (Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago) and (Velocity Culture) Ron Martoia and (Woodmen Valley Chapel Colorado) Matt Heard. Stephan Joubert is linked to the Dutch Reformed Church, Moreleta Park Church in Pretoria.

The Mosaic church is a dark place, filled with New Age teaching, contemplative prayer and other occult practices.

Pastor Gavin Sklar Chik who spoke at the Mosaic church in Fairlands not so long ago taught at his  Brackendowns Baptists church that people are to breathing out sin and breathing in righteousness. He still teaches at the Baptist Theological College and he is now known as the Baptist Mystic!

———

Thanks to Gloria’s comment for brining this to DTW’s attention!

———

To answer the question regarding the Sabbath:

THIS is the Gospel Truth of the matter

1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE WAS THE LAW – (Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE, was the Law of the Sabbath.)
2) Jesus Christ
taught the Sabbath by having kept the Sabbath because he was still on earth and Lord of the Sabbath Day on earth.
3) When Jesus was crucified many miraculous things took place, one of these being that Jesus Christ
fulfilled the Law and it was written in our hearts (all 10 commandments)
4) Jesus became our Sabbath
REST in all born again Christians – we do not need to WORK anymore to keep this commandment because the HOLY SPIRIT now abides in each and every born again believer.

Hence all truly born again believers keep all 10 commandants.

More...

157 comments to WARNING: SDA Evangelistic Drive, AMAZING DISCOVERIES 2010 @ Mosaic Theatre (10 Nov – 4 Dec)

  • Hmm, As I recall there is actually a group of Baptists, called Seventh Day Baptists, who meet on the Sabbath. They have been around since the 1700s, and do not accept the writings of Ellen White!

    Messianic Jews, who do indeed believe in Jesus and have suffered for Him, still meet on the Sabbath.

    Acts 20:7 does indeed say that the Christians met on the first day of the week. But don’t forget that the Jewish day began at sundown. Since the house was lit-up it is clear that they were actually meeting on Saturday evening by our calendar! They were planning to travel on the “Morrow” which would have actually been Sunday morning!

    Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

    42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

    17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

    18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

    There is nothing in scripture that says we must meet on the first day of the week, or that the early church thought of the sabbath as anything other than the Jewish sabbath. We do have Paul saying, in Romans 14, that one regards one day unto the Lord and another does not, but each should be persuaded in his own mind and do it unto the Lord.

    I have seen Dr. Veith’s videos and have posted a rebuttal to some of the things he says on my own website. He does not say that one is lost if one keeps Sunday instead of the Sabbath. Don’t forget that the keeping of the Sabbath had its origin in the creation week, not in Judaism! The Sabbath teaching is much less dangerous than is his Calvinism!

    Some of the other things you say about the SDAs are more disturbing, but I did not see most of them in Dr. Veith’s videos.

    As I see it, the millennial reign of Christ is the earth’s sabbath rest. The Sabbath of peace. When we say that Christians should meet on Sunday we are destroying the picture that the Lord created for us during the creation week!

    If you think that Christians must meet on Sunday I would like to hear scriptural support for your position from some verse other than Acts 20:7. (To be honest, I still attend Church on Sunday, but am less and less comfortable with this situation)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dan

    To be very very honest, this topic is not a discussion about the Sabbath. It’s a warning to all that the FREE presentation at Masaiek Church is run by SDA cult.

    There are 100 more things I could list about the SDA church and Ellen G White that are very disturbing. The fact they keep the Sabbath so rigidly is just one of the many false teachings.

  • Arum

    AAAAAH, Just to welcome you back!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Arum

    YAAAAAAAY :)

  • Burning Lamp

    Dan, since you opened the can of worms, I feel that it must be at least briefly addressed although not intended to lead into a full-fledged discussion. For another time and another day.

    My experience with Sabbatarianism is that it is a very dangerous doctrine. This applies to any group that rigidly holds to the view whether they be Messianic (which is in my view a plan of the enemy to divide the Church) or any sect that worships on Saturday exclusively.

    You err if you believe that the Sabbath was established at creation. It was established in the Law set up for the children of Israel. Get the key word Law. As believers we are no longer under the Law and Jesus is our Sabbath rest.

    The Messianic movement extends the Law rather than giving freedom from it. It also creates a separate group removed from the general Body of Christ and retains the traditions of Judaism over the fulfillment of the Law by our Savior. It is ironic that although intended to attract Jewish people to Christ what often happens is that it attracts non-Jewish folks who are intrigued with the feasts and traditions and even come to think they have to learn Hebrew to fully understand the Bible.

    A study of the feasts is beneficial only to show their significance of how our Lord was a fulfillment and completion of them.

    I have personally seen the damage that can be done as people become out of balance and hung up on this issue and Sabbatarianism is a big part of it.

  • MJ Oosthuysen

    what about the wlc group.?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Gosh that was such a brilliantly said comment it deserves to be made into a little article :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    MJ

    What is the wlc group?

  • Jurgen

    Greetings All

    1) Dan – thanks for a well written essay; one with venom, and using logic.

    2) Burning Lamp – you on the other hand, are light on the truth, and heavily steeped in incorrect doctrine. How confusing you are with your interpretation of the LAW, and what it the LAW means. Could I explain it as follows – if today there is NO LAW, and no NEED for the law then today there is NO need for GRACE! No one extends mercy, or grace, or absolution from punishment, if there is no measure for the offence in the first place. This “measure” is the LAW. So, if there is NO law, then there is NO need for grace, no need for a sacrifice, and no need for the high priest (Christ) to intercede with God. The concept that “once there was the law, and now the law has been abolished” is incorrect. The scriptures state that the law was FULFILLED, and does NOT state the that law was ABOLISHED!

    3) Next – the Sabbath was certainly NOT first instituted for Israel. This idea would be to confuse the “CONCEPT” of the Sabbath Rest (since creation), and the “WRITING” of the 10 Commandments on the Tablets. Just because the Commandments were not written in stone (or elsewhere) before the Tablets, does NOT mean that the concept of the Sabbath only came about when Moses went up the mountain.

    4) I just don’t understand why the Sabbath is LITERALLY the ONLY one of the 10 commandments that is no longer valid, or that it was changed. Why THIS commandment only? Why? See the list:
    1) No other gods.
    2) No images.
    3) Don’t use God’s name in vain.
    4) Keep the Sabbath (the scriptures, ironically, provide a LOT of detail about this commandment) – NO LONGER VALID.
    5) Honour parents.
    6) Don’t kill.
    7) No adultery.
    8) Don’t steal.
    9) No false witness.
    10) Don’t covet.

    5) Does it make ANY sense to “change” or “amend” only number 4? Well if change is acceptable, then the other 9 commandments can also be changed. So, no longer many anyone complain that the Catholics have their idols, ie statues of Mary. Surely it’s no longer a “big deal” to have a couple of statues around? We can amend the commandments by church tradition.

    6) Then – stop focusing on the SDAs with regard to the Sabbath issue. They are really just ONE SMALL group who make an issue of the Sabbath.

    7) Currently most people believe what they have been TOLD due to some form of “tradition”. This is why they will defend in whatever manner possible, their “doctrine”, no matter how wrong it is. Such false doctrine includes many things, ie Christ being born on 25 Dec, that he died on a Friday, that the flood was over the “whole earth”, that Satan was called Lucifer, and once an Arc Angel; that baptism can be performed on babies; that people become Angels after death; that humans are alive and can speak to the living; etc; etc. All the afore-mentioned are FALSE DOCTRINE. Hardly anyone knows, or cares. Most don’t read any church history, nor even their Bibles, to determine the truth. Hence the verse “my people are destroyed due to lack of knowledge.

    8) I’m sure some readers will not like the list of “false’ doctrines that I mentioned in the paragraph above. Then again, readers don’t like the idea that Sunday is pagan worship, and all about the Sun. So why should it be any different with any other doctrine.

    9) I think ALL who at least profess to be in the “Christian fold” should get OFF our lazy butts, and get our disciple-d. This means, (a) talk to God, as He knows all truth, and He wants to share it with us. It means (b) read the Bible – all 66 books – as there is a LOT of information in there. It means (c) talk to people, and get other people talking, ie share, debate, encourage, etc – all in a decent kind and loving manner of course! In this way the universal church should be able to get to the truths, eventually.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jurgen

    Hmmm… ok to clear up your confusion. First we have the OLD Covenant and then we have the NEW Covenant.

    Jeremiah 31:31-33 (New King James Version)

    A New Covenant

    31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    Jesus came to FULFILL THE LAW therefore the law will be written in our minds and hearts (by the Holy Spirit) making us children of God.

    We do not need to remove any commandment, as a child of God under the New Covenant you have all 10, and Jesus Christ is the Sabbath.

    Those who physically take the sabbath day out of the New Covenant, back to the Old Covenant are now going back to THE LAW where YOUR FLESH is WEAK and the bible is clear that if you want to follow 1 OLD Covenant Law then you must follow ALL of them.

    So I think you need to do as you suggested and go back to reading your bible – all 66 books.

  • Burning Lamp

    Jurgon, I echo Deborah on this issue. There is much more that could be said to refute your error amd confusion, but I have a feeling it would be wasted effort. Jesus Himself broke the Sabbath and drew the wrath of the legalists. We are not under Law, we are under grace in the New Covenant.

    BTW, what day of the week was Jesus resurrected regardless of what it is called?

    Also, you stated that Dan had responded with venom – did you really mean that?

  • Susan

    Why would a Christian church host messages from a cult. It somehow immediately makes me think less of Mozaik, just compromising – allowing false teachings – their name is attached to this. I’m surprised.. has Mozaik drifted off?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Susan

    Mosaic would like you to think they are Christian, but they are not. They are what one calls Emergent Christianity. They delve into New Age teachings, they wallow in contemplative spirituality / meditation and other occult practices. They are by no means a Christian church.

  • Nerfititi

    All I can say is only listen to the WORD and Voice of God. His laws and ways for our lives has always be valid. At a matter of fact most civil law are based on the bible. When you go to court you are judged for breaking the law the same will happen at the coming OF Jesus.He is coming to judge us according to His Law,i.e the Ten Commandment Laws as well as the old Law of Love.The voice of God and His law supersedes the voice of tradition,culture and mankind. Hunble yourself to His WORD and Law as this will please our Father in heaven.

  • Kevin

    So far I have attended 5 of these meetings. As a well known Gospel artist I was requested to perform at these events.(Please note I have given a fake name here) When doing my research I was horrified at the truth behind these events. I reclined the offer to perform, as the 7th day church has got radically different beliefs to us Christians. They make every effort to appear as though they are like us. I have also been involved in creating awareness of this event and am outraged that it be allowed to continue under our very noses. Please note that 7th day adventism is mentioned as a “Cult” in the revised edition of the book “Kingdom of the cults” by Walter Martin from page 519 onwards. I believe this book is now available online or go and order it from Cum. Please read the links below very carefully too.

    Please get involved and send emails to Mosaiek church enquiring and expressing concern for this event. After much struggle I am going to be meeting with one of the people in charge at Mosaiek tommorow. It appears that Mosaiek may not be fully aware of what is going on beneath their noses. But I cannot be sure of this yet as I am only meeting with them tommorrow and it has been very hard to get taken seriously by them. I have sent emails to the pastor and left 2 messages but have had no response from him. The only way I am getting “in” is because a friend and I were dishing out pamphlets exposing the meetings and we were lucky enough to get the attention of someone involved in the church who seemed to be somewhat concerned about what we had told him and as a result he has moved quickly to get us to the right ears, allthough not to the head pastor as yet. It appears they have hired out the venue to John Carter. My big question is don’t they do research on who they allow in to their church or are they strictly running a business by hiring out their venue to any one who asks. Why should I as a lay Christian have to fight to be heard when the leadership should have done their homework. After all they are in a position of great responsibility. Which raises the question, are they fit to be in that position and what are their true motives. The SDA seem to be alot more jacked up in their strategies and in their theological standings. If you speak to one they seem to have a solid understanding of scipture and the various doctrines they believes in. Its no wonder they are able to infiltrate as most of our churches are sleeping giants. In fact in many ways SDA might seem very attractive to Christians who are wanting more from their washed out churches. John Carter is a very good speaker and has allready won over many who are attending. Infact I was very impressed myself.

    I am also aware that the SDA will be handing out bibles and study guides at the end of these meetings maybe on the 4th DEC or sooner. I’m afraid they might contain the writings of Ellen White and that the actual bible may be their own version as it is well known that they print and distribute their own version of the bible. Most of the people at these meetings seem to be Christian who are totally oblivious to what is about to happen to them. Namely they are slowly being converted to SDA.

    This link is by an ex SDA memeber of 33 years who was involved with John Carter and these so called “Amazing discoveries” meetings.
    http://www.nonsda.org/study12.shtml

    This will confirm what SDA’s believe and that they are behind these meetings aswell.
    http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/sda_facts.html

  • Leon

    The SDA church believe in justification only through grace. Rom.3:24. The whole law is love Rom.13:8,9 and is divided into 10 beautiful life principals like,honour thy father and mother, dont steel, dont kill. The most beautiful one is where God says, spent the seventh day as a remembrance of creation with Me. Ex.20:8-11, Ps 111:4.
    Satan brought evolution in. Then the remembrance of creation changed to the resurrection on the first day, day of the sun. Jesus ensures us that the sabbath stands forever. Matt. 24:20, as well as in heaven Jer. 66:22,23. He says that His whole law (James 2:10) is now been put in our minds, (our thoughts) and is written on our hearts. Heb. 8:10.(meaning – we will love the law)
    God also says that Satan hates His law and will make war against those who keep his commandments. Rev.12:17. God says, He did not recall His law but fullfilled the lamb offering ceremony as the lamb of God. Matt.5:17-19
    Jesus said that the world hated Him, and will also hate His true followers. Matt. 10:22.

  • SDA

    Im SDA. Sadly many people think we are a cult, I don’t blame you all. I was disappointed to hear an advert for the Amazing Discoveries Presentation by John Carter on Radio, aired by the organizers. I knew it was an evangelical outreach. But nothing of Jesus, Christ, or church was mentioned in the Ad. They have hoodwinked people, and covered the truth about the Outreach programme. This is very disappointing. It has caused damage to our reputation, and has added to the false idea of who we really are.. There are millions who would love to hear About Jesus, Am i right? We should have just said it was about Jesus.

    Others like Walter Veith also have contributed to SDA’s questionable reputation. Did you know he is Banned from preaching in the SDA Churches in Canada? He is a brilliant scientist who got caught up in theology of which is not qualified to do. His content is highly questionable, and is not endorsed by the World Headquarters on Seventh – Day Adventists. I agree with some of you, when you say he is cultish… He brings more devilish stuff into our churches than he does Christ, or Jesus. Some people in our churches actually question whether he is a Christian or not!

    We are a church who tackles, and confronts many issues of which are contemporary, and Biblical, other churches are afraid to, or not able to, or leave to the Pastor to explain or rely on tradition for…

    Just like you all, we believe that Grace, through Jesus Christ is the only way to Salvation. Many Adventists have misrepresented us. But we have very good Biblical reasons for our 27 fundamental beliefs. We don’t rationalize the Bible. There are legalist Adventist who want to obey the Bible like the Jews.. and there are legalist in all your other denominations.. But the truth is that Jesus died for all. We all are sinners and have come short of the Glory of God… Our works will never save us. Our Laws will never save us. Our Doctrines will never save us…Only the Blood of Jesus, and Belief in him to be God’s Son, the Saviour of this world, will.

    God Bless you all, my brothers and sisters in Christ.. No matter what day you worship, no matter what you eat.. no matter how you live…If you believe in Jesus, you have a chance for eternal life..

    If you want to be a shining light to the world around us while we are waiting for Jesus to come…. Then there is nothing wrong to live a life that God intended for us from Creation… It wont save us.. It won’t make you better than the other, but it will show the world, that we love God, and we are his Children….and that is what God wants of us….he actually wanted that from the Jews, but they let him down big time……

    The Sabbath concept is the most simple thing to understand..The commandments were given to actually benefit us… Its not for Salvation! It never was…. Try breaking them all in modern society.. see how far you get… Then try keeping them… you probably would be the most respected person in your circles… Even if your day is Sunday.. keep the Whole day Holy.. take a total rest from everything you do in the week.. I bet you’ll have high powered energy for the next week… with a clear mind….. after spending time contemplating on God…. Its all for our benefit.. Not for God’s Benefit..

    He knows if our Heart is Good or Bad, he does not need us to keep silly laws….to find that out!

    Adventists are not hypnotized in a cult.. Maybe over zealous.. maybe seem strange from the outside…looking in.. But we centre our selves around Christ.. We try to follow him not just with our words,, but by our actions…

    As someone said above. .Read all 66 books.. and i say.. for yourself..

  • Rhona

    Today was my first visit to the lecture.
    I don’t trust them . A true believer in christ believes because the command is to love God we don’t believe because of evidence. Jesus said I and the Father are one , I am the way the truth and the life , before Abraham was born ” I AM ” he said my kingdom is not of this world , He said I have come down from heaven- – I had the revelation of ;esus he said on that day u will know that – I am in the Father and the father in me – Jesus is God , Jesus is the law n the sabbath he is the life
    John Carter is not telling people the will of God

    The strange teachings out there are scary I feel sorry for those who do not open their bibles and seek God so that he may give them the spirit of discernment..they will just fall into the pit listening to. False teachers

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kevin

    Thanks for your comment. I doubt you will get a response from Mosaiek, they are most probably getting a good deal of ‘publicity’ out of all the FREE advertising. You see what they preach at Mosaic is just as bad or worse than the SDAs so they don’t care which way the people go as long as they can get the people through their doors. And you are right John Carter is a very good speaker and the SDA’s are excellent when it comes to biblical history and the like (it’s all true stuff) – this is where they catch everyone one. SDA’s have the financial backing and can afford to throw out tons of money on the adverts on TV and radio – it’s very scary how these guys operate.

    I hope you manage to get the word out Kevin. In all the rubbish that is preached out there the SDA’s are scooping up people left right and centre because they SOUND biblical and because people are none the wiser they landing in the spiders web.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    SDA

    The stuff you write about John Carter and Walter Veith being banned makes NO DIFFERENCE to what the SDA cult believes and preaches – It’s all about your prophetess Ellen G White.

    If you are the same as every other Christian out there why don’t you leave your SDA church and join the normal bible believing Christian world. But you wont because you hold to different views that go against scripture.

    That is why your church is classified as a cult. End of story.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leon

    Tell me what you think of your prophetess and how you adore her?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    Galatians 3:10-14

    The Law Brings a Curse

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
    13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Galatians 3:1-9

    Justification by Faith

    1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
    5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

  • SDA

    Deborah

    If you think Adventism revolves around EG White, you are wrong, and don’t know enough about SDA’s. We don’t adore her. You have just heard comments and excerpts taken out of context…….

    Its wrong when some SDA people liken EG White to the Bible. She even says in her writings to never do that, and also she says, the Bible is adequate enough on its own to lead us to Salvation. She Never equates herself with God, Jesus, or the Bible.. Crazy Adventist extremists to that! you have people like this through out the Christian world….

    Ellen White is actually one the founders of the Adventist Church.. like John Wesley, Calvin, Luther… etc… They all are not our god’s.. We are not a church based on a human being, But on a God, and the Bible.

    Adventists don’t go against Scripture. We read the same bible’s as you, We don’t publish our own Bible with EG White stuff in there… Thats is just Bad mouthing Adventist. Not a very Christian thing to do…….. I have NIV, New King James, New Century Version, just like you probably do…..

    Don’t glorify Christianity, for with out Jesus its also just another movement based on tradition…

    There are some Adventist who also glorify Adventism… and forget Christ!

    The So called normal Bible Believing Christian world is so far the from the Bible in so many ways… I met 2 different people, who say that their churches don’t even teach about the minor prophets, old testament stuff, but just focus on Paul’s Letters and the Gospels…

    I’m open to worship with many other christians, and churches.. As long as Jesus is the centre and reason for Worship, and not ourselves or tradition. Are you open to Worship with us or any other church?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    SDA

    >> If you think Adventism revolves around EG White, you are wrong, and don’t know enough about SDA’s. We don’t adore her. You have just heard
    comments and excerpts taken out of context…….

    Shows you how much you know about your own church. Ellen G White is responsible for the doctrines you believes.

    You say I don’t know enough about the SDA’s. Well that’s funny, because what is there that is different from the normal bible believing Christian. A LOT. Hence the fact you fall under a different name.

    >> Ellen White is actually one the founders of the Adventist Church.. like John Wesley, Calvin, Luther… etc… They all are not our god’s.. We are not a church based on a human being, But on a God, and the Bible.

    Exactly. And just like John Calvin, Ellen G White has concocted a doctrine that is contrary to scripture, which the SDA church follows.

    >> Adventists don’t go against Scripture. We read the same bible’s as you,

    Of course you do, you just said that Ellen While is the founder of the SDA church. Just because you read the same bible does not mean you do not follow Ellen Whites principles that run right through the SDA church.

    AGAIN, if you are not different to any normal Christian, leave the SDA church. Tell me what is different to the SDA church goer than the NORMAL BIBLE believing Christian? Come on, you know fully well there are HUGE differences that is why you are an SDA and not a NORMAL BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN.

    >> I’m open to worship with many other christians, and churches.. As long as Jesus is the centre and reason for Worship, and not ourselves or tradition. Are you open to Worship with us or any other church?

    Jesus is supposed to be the centre of the Mosaic church as well, yet they are steeped in New Age teaching. If you can’t tell the difference between what is truth vs what is error, going to church makes no difference in your life.

  • Another Dan

    I would like to ask how this presentation has anything to with SDA?
    I’ve attended almost all of the lectures and was very Bible oriented. I haven’t read all the comments as such and I don’t know much about Mosaic church but I can say that there was nothing mentioned about a Saturday Adventist or anything. All the lectures were purely archeological, Bible prophetical outlines, etc.
    I didn’t hear the radio ads or see the TV ads but I got it from a pamphlet. If you couldn’t deduce that it was Bible oriented from that then I can see why this post is here. On the pamphlet it said “Proof of God in the land of the Pharaohs”. So what’s the fuss?

  • Burning Lamp

    Good response Debs!

    Also, the Mormons claim Jesus as Savior, but it is not the Jesus of the Bible.

    The SDA Gospel is not the Gospel of the Bible. That is the crux of the matter. It is a clever mix of truth and error.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Another Dan

    >> I would like to ask how this presentation has anything to with SDA?
    I’ve attended almost all of the lectures and was very Bible oriented. I haven’t read all the comments as such and I don’t know much about Mosaic church but I can say that there was nothing mentioned about a Saturday Adventist or anything

    Well that’s because they go out of their way not to tell you they are SDA. They then give out material at the presentations in hope you contact them.

    The FUSS IS people end up going to SDA churches – once you are in an SDA church it seems very difficult to get out of an SDA church, hence they are classified as a cult.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    SDA

    Here is vow 17 of your 27 fundamental beliefs all SDA’s have to take;

    #17 The Gift Of Prophecy One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Support is found in these Bible passages: Joel 2:28,29: Acts 2:14-21: Hebrews 1:1-3: Revelation 12:17: Revelation 19:10

  • Kevin

    TO SDA

    While I do appreciate your sincerity and I do think in many ways the SDA’s have quite a good grasp on scripture, in many ways better than “Normal Christians” It is very unfortunate that Ellen white a so called prophetess has been instrumental in your belief system. For example:

    Ellen G. White endorsed a false prophecy by William Miller that Christ would return, first in 1843 and then 1844. Miller repented when Christ didn’t show up on his date but Ellen didn’t want to be viewed as a false prophetess for endorsing him through her visions. The idea was concocted by one of her followers that the date was right, but the event was wrong. Ellen eagerly accepted this “out”, and this explanation was offered to explain away the false prophecy:

    Christ didn’t come visibly to earth, but He, invisibly, in heaven, changed compartments from the Holy to the Most Holy in 1844 and began the work of “investigative judgment” that we have discussed previously.

    This false date and its failure triggered other heresies on the atonement of Christ which continues to this day. Honest-hearted SDA’s who have pointed out the error of the 1844 investigative judgment have been shown the door by their Conference. You sure won’t be told the true history behind the 1844 doctrine by SDA’s!

  • Kevin

    TO SDA

    Yes unfortunately these John Carter meetings are very deceptive in what their actual intentions are. For example when Billy Graham comes to town to hold a crusade everyone knows exactly what his agenda is and why he is there. And yet they flock in the thousands.Its because the light of the truth is there. Why do SDA evangelists or John Carter feel they need to be deceptive or to hide both who they are and what their intentions are?????? A very very big question. And the answer is simple, because there is no light in them and they simply don’t have the true power of the holy spirit to simply bring the light of the gospel and present it openly. There is no light in darkness so therefor darkness has to concoct clever plans and ways to entice and appeal to peoples logical minds and in so doing attempt to convert them to a system of believing. By presenting interesting facts about the bible you are appealing more to mans logic and reasoning and trying to convince him rather than letting the simple truth of the Gospel convict him by the power of the holy spirit and by preaching repentance and salvation through Christ. Its simple and its powerful. The way John is doing it all feels very heavy, religious, fake, deceptive and dark. In the 5 meetings I have attended, and having looked at the remaining program which only consists of teachings about revelations and end time prophecy, he has not taught that we are sinners in need of salvation and that we need to repent. He has said nice things about Christ, nice words that make us think how nice God is. But nothing to bring a sinner to a realization of his depraved state and to make him aware that he is a sinner. This is essential to getting people saved, there must be an understanding that they are sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God and that they need the blood of Christ to cleanse their sins. Instead he goes on about revelations and the antichrist and and end time prophecy and bible prophecy and other interesting facts about the bible as though he’s trying to create a sense of entrigue and wonder about God. What kind of evangelism is this? It is obviously a tactic to condition unsuspecting people, christians an non christians into SDA. This does not result in true conversion but rather into conversion into SDA. John tends to allways appeal to our intellect and reasoning, and in so doing tricks us into thinking that we were somehow smart enough to see the truth and therefor to make the decision to convert. This is not true conversion, and also confirms the self righteous stance one might take once converted. It feels like Im being drawn in and manipulated into something. SDA’s might all “say” the right things,appear as though they do the right things but with all due respect to your sincerity I have to say that my spirit does not register with the spirit that resides in the SDA. We can argue all day about doctrine but at the end of the day I don’t like the feeling I get from SDA people as a whole. My spirit senses something sinister and exclusive. But having said that I don’t intend to judge you personally, you may very well be a true believer as an individual. But generally there is something wrong and you would do well to continue searching for the truth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kevin

    Totally agree.

  • Lee

    I read where you said seeing a vision of Jesus was false. Please explain to me as I have seen several visions and am not involved with any false church. I have always prayed and God has always kept me out of places where false spirits were teaching and He has led me for many years. Hey, I do not claim to know everything, otherwise you could add my name to the other false ones.

    You have a lot of truth and maybe I misunderstood you. Jesus is and was very real to me. He is not dead and judgment is rightfully coming, but HIS day is also and I intend to be on the right side of things; which is with JESUS CHRIST.
    Thanks,
    Lee

  • Kevin

    Ok who’s next.

  • Kevin

    Im so glad I discovered this site. I have felt so frustrated over the years with all the deception and nonsense I’ve seen going around in the church and in various teachings and ministries. It’s just great to a have a place where I can share my concerns and to vent a bit. After all if you confront these teachers and ministers you get nowhere and you end staying away from church altogether simply out of distrust and disillusionment.

  • Nerfititi

    Deborah, kindly note that Jesus came to banish the Jewish Laws and customs and that is why He constantly cursed the Jews cause they had their own cultural laws for example – that woman were not allowed in the synagogues,etc, there are many more of the Jewish laws He banished. If you read through the synoptic gospels you will discover that Jesus lived out the whole Ten Commandment Laws and has actually told us in His word that the law is easy to live out by the power of the Holy Spirit and not too difficult. My sister you need to go into the full history of the law and the events that happened outside of the bible will make you understand what God is saying in His WORD. In you read in Revelation is says that at the coming of Jesus He declare “Here are the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Read the book of Revelation you will see it reveals what will happen in our day as well as when Jesus comes. Can you imagine what this world would be like if we had no laws in place. The Lords Law will always stand troughout the ages.If you need more info on this topic let me know. God Bless yhou all

  • Leon

    Kevin and Deborah I would like to give you only facts for Rom.8:7 and Isa 55:8 says our thoughts are in contradiction with Gods thoughts.

    Firstly Deborah, I adore Ellen G White as well as everyone that love Jesus and stand for the truth. To read her books you’ll have to love her and only then you can really judge her. Matt 23:34 states: “Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city”.

    So Kevin, Jesus who is entirely LOVE was hated by this earth and He promised that His followers will also be hated. Matt. 10:22 Now you can undestand why E White, mr Carter and everyone who really stands for Jesus is HATED and Billy Graham and Benny Hinn is so loved. This is Biblical facts.

    If we would reveal ourselves at once no one will listen or here the truth. We only give them the opportunity to hear us out before they judge us. We will never refuse to identify ourselves if ask, and we also identify ourselves as soon as we have given enough information to be judge fairly.

    There are more than one spirit. One is going around like a roaring lion to devour. 1 Pet.5:8. people shall depart from faith, giving heed to seducing spirits. 1 Tim 4:1. These spirits strive on emotions and feelings using God’s name to do wonders and signs. Matt 7:21,22 ; 24:24. Then there will be the unpopular Holy Spirit that will remind people of the teachings of Jesus. John 14:26. The world is following the wrong one. Rev. 13:3,4,8.

    The true followers of Jesus was always given bad names, like sects and pests. Acts 24:5,14. 28:22. and we are very proud to be identified with them!!!!

  • Kevin

    Hi everyone

    I have placed a complaint with the ASA- advertising standards authority concerning these amazing discoveries meetings. I have stated that they are false advertising based on the fact that they advertise one thing but the meetings are of another nature. Please do the same if you can. The more people on board the better.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kevin

    Well, welcome. You will find that you will get no where here too, but it’s worth a try lol ;)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    If you continue to twist scripture you will continue to live under false teaching. Laws of the land have NOTHING to do with Mosaic Laws.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leon

    I don’t judge Ellen G White. God will do that. In the Old Testament prophets where STONED if they were false only once, Ellen G White would not have made it past GO. Unfortunately she lived in a time where people are way to lenient on false teachers and she lived long enough to establish a church of gullible followers.

    Jesus is not ENTIRELY love. Jesus HATES SIN. If he was entirely love, Ellen G White would not be judged one day and found guilty.

    >>> So Kevin, Jesus who is entirely LOVE was hated by this earth and He promised that His followers will also be hated. Matt. 10:22 Now you can undestand why E White, mr Carter and everyone who really stands for Jesus is HATED and Billy Graham and Benny Hinn is so loved. This is Biblical facts.

    Leon, get your facts straight. Firstly. Billy Graham is an ecumenical teacher raised by the Roman Catholic Church, he did however preach a relatively good gospel message. Today Billy Graham sits at the bottom of the cesspool as he helps to further the Vatican II’s Evangelization Program.

    Secondly. Benny Hinn is a Roman Catholic deceiver who thinks FAITH is a force – that you can speak things into existence, that there are 9 people to the Godhead and that men came from Neanderthals.

    So please don’t for 1 second try use the excuse that others are loved more therefore Ellen White must be the real deal as per Matt 12:22 – This verse applies to truly born again Christians, not the likes of Ellen G White who is taken to task as being a false teacher, not for fun, but because SHE IS and it is proven over and over and over again.

    >>> If we would reveal ourselves at once no one will listen or here the truth. We only give them the opportunity to hear us out before they judge us. We will never refuse to identify ourselves if ask, and we also identify ourselves as soon as we have given enough information to be judge fairly.

    There is no truth to hear Leon! The entire SDA church is built on LIES, lies concocted by Ellen G White.

    >>> There are more than one spirit. One is going around like a roaring lion to devour. 1 Pet.5:8. people shall depart from faith, giving heed to seducing spirits. 1 Tim 4:1. These spirits strive on emotions and feelings using God’s name to do wonders and signs. Matt 7:21,22 ; 24:24. Then there will be the unpopular Holy Spirit that will remind people of the teachings of Jesus. John 14:26. The world is following the wrong one. Rev. 13:3,4,

    That’s funny, last time I check the Holy Spirit ABIDES IN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS so because of that, with immediate effect the believer is reminded of the teachings of Jesus. The Holy Spirit also CONVICTS us of SIN. Why does the ‘spirit’ that resides in you not remind you of the teachings of the Bible regarding FALSE PROPHETS and why does the ‘spirit’ that resides in you not convict you that Ellen G White is nothing but a blasphemer? Maybe you need to check which spirit resides in you Leon. Bible tells you to test all things. I think you should TEST THIS ONE and QUICKLY.

    >>> The true followers of Jesus was always given bad names, like sects and pests. Acts 24:5,14. 28:22. and we are very proud to be identified with them!!!!

    True followers of Jesus were ALWAYS BORN AGAIN. You are not a sect, nor a pest. Lost yes, in need of the Gospel Truth and Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ ONLY.

  • Kevin

    Leon and all other SDA’s

    Its your life live it how you want. I have better things to do. Ellen white is from the devil. You guys quote scripture like its coming out of your ears. What happened to “no one know the day or the hour” yet you seem absolutely in love with your false prophetess. Get real and get out of denial.

  • Kevin

    Deborah

    Yes I was surpised to hear about Billy Grahams ecumenical stance. Is rather dissapointing. I do think his crusades back then were pretty powerfull. Not sure where he stands now though. I’m also not sure I fully agree with the alter call method.

  • Tee

    Well a lot of you are running from fact. Someone asked why you observe all the other 9 commandments and leave one. Jesus did not change any law. And he worshipped in the synagogue every sabbath. I have a big question here, why is it that a lot of people are against adventism. And for a fact I can tell you there is no other church that upholds the Bible like the SDA church. Ellen White is not used in coming up with doctrines. Adventits say Solar Scriptura meaning “the scripture and scripture alone’. Those people believe in the Bible. Well let me be frank, I was born an Adventist and have never seen this Clear Word Bible. And there is nowhere in this world where one was told to buy this Bible for him to be a true Adventist. All our biliefs are supported by the Bible. Not even one of our beliefs is based upon Ellen White’s writings. Like someone said earlier on you need to know more about Adventists before you start criticizing them.

  • Dawn

    Pray, Pray that is all I can say.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Tee

    >> Well a lot of you are running from fact. Someone asked why you observe all the other 9 commandments and leave one

    This has already been answered in the comments section. 3 times in fact. We do not leave one out. Jesus came to fulfill the law, it is now written in our hearts. Jesus is the Sabbath day. He is our rest.

    Tee, I am sorry to hear that your church has never told you the truth about SDA and Ellen G White. Go ask them.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    M.v.n.: SDAs se ‘poging’ in die ‘Mosaic’-saal te Randburg.

    Dit gaan hier oor verwikkelinge in Suid-Afrika, maar dit lyk of almal lankal al vergeet het verreweg die meerderheid van die bevolking is Afrikaans-sprekend…. nes met die rugby. Dis hartseer! Engeland en Engels na alles loop weg met die louere van die stryd van die eeue sedert die ‘volksplanting’ hier ter lande, en die ANC en Afrikana dag hulle het die ‘struggle’ gewen….

    Hoe ookal, dis nie waaroor ek wil praat nie.

    Ek wil oor die Sondag-foefie praat. Die grootste klugspel loshande ooit.

    Man, die lot het g’n respek vir die Skrifte nie. Dis maar al. En as mens nie respek vir die Skrifte het nie, moet jy ook nie loop smous met jou respek vir die Ingewer van die Skrifte – God – nie …. huigelaars!

    Dit werk so:

    Die klomp heidene wat deur Paulus gekersten was, dwaal toe weer terug na hulle ou, eertydse drek-verfoeisel-afgode, vernamelik die ‘eerste beginsels’ Griekse vier gode van tyd, “dae, maande, seisoene, jare” Galasiers 4:10 waarvan Sondag die hermafrodiet “Dag van die heer Son” en “Koningin van dae” is.

    Tot vandag toe Christene se liefling.

    Toe kom hulle in verleentheid daaroor, natuurlik, want hulle het dan GEEN SKRIF vir hulle drekgod se aanbidding nie. Om geloofwaardigheid te behou, wat nou gemaak?

    A! Ons het mos ons regtige lieflingsgodjie; wat maak die Skrif tog saak? Ons verander gou-gou die Bybel om ons godslasterlike leuen te kersten, in te seën en te inisieer in die diepere misterië van die ‘godsdiens’, en maak die Dag van die heer Son die nuwe heilige Christelike dag van aanbidding.

    Dis so maklik as om Matteus 28:1 van “SABBATS”, na “NA DIE SABBAT” te verander; en, “TEEN die Eerste Dag van die week”, na, “OP die Eerste Dag van die week < ‘Sondag’.

    Ja wragtag! Daar lees jy dit tog nou met jou eie oë, sien: Jesus het “Op die EERSTE dag” van die week – ‘SONDAG’ – opgestaan uit die dode, en dis mos AL die rede hoekom Christene nie meer die ‘Joodse sabbat’, ‘Saterdag’ sal ‘hou’ nie, maar wel ‘die Dag van die Here’ Jesus Christus natuurlik!

    Met ‘n slap riem gevang!

    Maar slim van sy baas ….éééndag….

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Galatians 3:1-9

    Justification by Faith

    1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
    5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

    GE answers:

    I hope you can understand the Afrikaans comment above….

    Galatians 4:10 is a boomerang; it knocks its thrower the Sundayists, right over once for all.

  • Tee

    I know about Ellen G White in and out so don’t be sorry for me. I am sorry for you actually. I know the History of the Church in and out. Now you caught me wrong. I said I have never been asked to buy that Bible you are talking about. Not even one person was ever asked such a thing. You are making a plain my friend. I have been baptised myself and witnessed people being baptised but no one was ever asked to buy any sort of Bible. Actually we encourage people to have all sorts of Bible versions. We don’t have our own Bible. That is a lie. Now I see you have a sinister agenda but I worry not. Shakesspeare once said ‘ The dogs will keep on barking but the elephant will keep moving’ (paraphrased). We shall continue telling people the truth about the soon coming saviour.
    Like it or not the Sabbath remains there. Read the following verses and see what they say about the Law Romans 3:19-31;James 2:8-13;Matt 5:17-20;Romans 5:13; Luke 16:14-16; 1 John 3:4; Rom 6:14-15.
    About the sabbath all I can tell you is Please scriptural evidence that suggests that God changed it to Sunday. If you have any please let me know. I can tell you all of you who worship on Sunday are just following the Roman Catholic which clearly claims the changing of the sabbath day to sunday.“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” Rome’s Challenge http://www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003

    “Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.” James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).

    “For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.” Catholic Virginian, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”

    Who Made Sunday Holy?
    “Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code (ten commandments) was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai…Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity–love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5)…The (Catholic) Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day…He (God) claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy…”The Catholic Encyclopaedia, vol. 4, “The Ten Commandments”, 1908 edition by Robert Appleton Company; and 1999 Online edition by Kevin Knight, Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.

    “Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?
    “Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
    “Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
    “Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York).

    “Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power…People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

    “Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday…Now the Church…instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.” Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136.

    “Question – Which is the Sabbath day?
    “Answer – Saturday is the Sabbath day.
    “Question – Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
    “Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

    “Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day – Saturday – for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!”
    “Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons.” James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, Md. (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

    “Question. – How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
    “Answer. – By the very act of changing Sabbath into Sunday which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
    “Question. – How prove you that?
    “Answer. – Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin: and by not keeping the rest by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.” An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, composed by Henry Tuberville, p. 58.

    “Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The (Roman Catholic) Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.” John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 edition, vol. 1, p. 51.

    “Question. What warrant have you for keeping Sunday preferably to the ancient sabbath which was Saturday?
    “Answer. We have for it the authority of the Catholic church and apostolic tradition.
    “Question. Does the Scripture anywhere command the Sunday to be kept for the Sabbath?
    “Answer. The Scripture commands us to hear the church (St.Matt.18:17; St. Luke 10:16), and to hold fast the traditions of the apostles. 2 Thess 2:15. But the Scripture does not in particular mention this change of the Sabbath.

    “St John speaks of the Lord’s day (Rev 1:10) but he does not tell us what day of the week that was, much less does he tell us what day was to take the place of the Sabbath ordained in the commandments. St.Luke speaks of the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7. And St. Paul (1 Cor.16:2) orders that on the first day of the week the Corinthians should lay in store what they designated to bestow in charity on the faithful in Judea: but neither the one or the other tells us that this first day of the week was to be henceforth a day of worship, and the Christian Sabbath; so that truly the best authority we have for this ancient custom is the testimony of the church. And therefore those who pretend to be such religious observers of Sunday, whilst they take no notice of other festivals ordained by the same church authority, show that they act more by humor, than by religion; since Sundays and holidays all stand upon the same foundation, namely the ordinance of the (Roman Catholic) church.” Catholic Christian Instructed, 17th edition, p. 272-273.

    “Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath.” John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.

    “The Catholic church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday…The Protestant World at its birth found the Christian Sabbath too strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the (Catholic) Church’s right to change the day, for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day, the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant World.” James Cardinal Gibbons in the Catholic Mirror, September 23, 1983.

    Whose Day of Worship is Sunday?
    “They [the Protestants] deem it their duty to keep the Sunday holy. Why? Because the Catholic Church tells them to do so. They have no other reason…The observance of Sunday thus comes to be an ecclesiastical law entirely distinct from the divine law of Sabbath observance…The author of the Sunday law…is the Catholic Church.” Ecclesiastical Review, February 1914.

    “The Sunday…is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.”American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.

    “Sunday…is the law of the Catholic Church alone…” American Sentinel (Catholic), June 1893.

    “Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles…From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900.

    “It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address reported in The News, Elizabeth, New Jersey, March 18, 1903.

    Who Do We Reverence and Pay Homage to by Keeping Sunday Holy?
    “From this we may understand how great is the authority of the church in interpreting or explaining to us the commandments of God – an authority which is acknowledged by the universal practice of the whole Christian world, even of those sects which profess to take the holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, since they observe as the day of rest not the seventh day of the week demanded by the Bible, but the first day. Which we know is to be kept holy, only from the tradition and teaching of the Catholic church.” Henry Gibson, Catechism Made Easy, #2, 9th edition, vol. 1, p. 341-342.

    “It was the Catholic church which…has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church.” Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

    “Sunday is our mark or authority…the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

    “Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act…And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

    “I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, February 18, 1884, printed in History of the Sabbath, p. 802. Hover here for a document clip or select for full original image.

    “Protestants…accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change…But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that…In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.

    Conclusion and the Challenge.
    “The (Roman Catholic) Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday.” The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

    “Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday.” Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.

    “Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

    “1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.

    “2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws…

    “It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.” Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Magazine, USA (1975), Chicago, Illinois, “Under the blessing of the Pope Pius XI”

    “I am going to propose a very plain and serious question to those who follow ‘the Bible and the Bible only’ to give their most earnest attention. It is this: Why don’t you keep holy the Sabbath day?…

    “The command of the Almighty God stands clearly written in the Bible in these words: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work.’ Exodus 20:8-10…

    “You will answer me, perhaps, that you do keep the Sabbath; for that you abstain from all worldly business and diligently go to church, and say your prayers, and read your Bible at home every Sunday of your lives…

    “But Sunday is not the Sabbath day. Sunday is the first day of the week: the Sabbath day is the seventh day of the week. Almighty God did not give a commandment that men should keep holy one day in seven; but He named His own day, and said distinctly: ‘Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day’; and He assigned a reason for choosing this day rather than any other – a reason which belongs only to the seventh day of the week, and cannot be applied to the rest. He says, ‘For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it’, Exodus 20:11, Genesis 2:1-3. Almighty God ordered that all men should rest from their labor on the seventh day, because He too had rested on that day: He did not rest on Sunday, but on Saturday. On Sunday, which is the first day of the week, He began the work of creation; He did not finish it. It was on Saturday that He ‘ended His work which he had made: and God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.’ Genesis 2:2-3…

    “Nothing can be more plain and easy to understand than all this; there is nobody who attempts to deny it. It is acknowledged by everybody that the day which Almighty God appointed to be kept holy was Saturday, not Sunday. Why do you then keep holy the Sunday and not Saturday?

    “You will tell me that Saturday was the Jewish Sabbath, but that the Christian Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. Changed! But by whom? Who has the authority to change an express commandment of Almighty God? When God has spoken and said, ‘Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day’, who shall dare to say, ‘Nay, thou mayest work and do all manner of worldly business on the seventh day: but thou shalt keep holy the first day in its stead?’ This is a most important question, which I know not how you answer…

    “You are a Protestant, and you profess to go by the Bible and the Bible only; and yet, in so important a manner as the observance of one day in seven as the holy day, you go against the plain letter of the Bible, and put another day in the place of that day which the Bible has commanded. The command to keep holy the seventh day is one of the Ten Commandments; you believe that the other nine are still binding. Who gave you authority to tamper with the fourth? If you are consistent with your own principles, if you really follow the Bible, and the Bible only you ought to be able to produce some portion of the New Testament in which this fourth commandment is expressly altered.” Excerpts from “Why Don’t You Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?”, pages 3-15 in The Clifton Tract, vol. 4, published by the Roman Catholic Church 1869.

    “The arguments…are firmly grounded on the word of God, and having been closely studied with the Bible in hand, leave no escape for the conscientious Protestant except the abandonment of Sunday worship and the return to Saturday, commanded by their teacher, the Bible, or, unwilling to abandon the tradition of the Catholic Church, which enjoins the keeping of Sunday, and which they have accepted in direct opposition to their teacher, the Bible, consistently accept her (the Catholic Church) in all her teachings. Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicism and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.” James Cardinal Gibbons, in Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.

    The vast majority of Christian churches today teach the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, as a time for rest and worship. Yet it is generally known and freely admitted that the early Christians observed the seventh day as the Sabbath. How did this change come about?

    History reveals that it was decades after the death of the apostles that a politico-religious system repudiated the Sabbath of Scripture and substituted the observance of the first day of the week. The following quotations, all from Roman Catholic sources, freely acknowledge that there is no Biblical authority for the observance of Sunday, that it was the Roman Church that changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week.

    In the second portion of this booklet are quotations from Protestants. Undoubtedly all of these noted clergymen, scholars, and writers kept Sunday, but they all frankly admit that there is no Biblical authority for a first-day sabbath.

    Roman Catholic Confessions

    James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.

    “But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”

    Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.

    “Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

    “Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”

    John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.

    “Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.”

    Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67.

    “Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?

    “Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.’

    James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

    “Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday – for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day’? I answer no!

    “Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons”

    The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

    “The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”

    Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. “To Tell You the Truth.”

    “For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.”

    Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.

    “Question: Which is the Sabbath day?

    “Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

    “Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

    “Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

    Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927),p. 136.

    “Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday …. Now the Church … instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.”

    Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society (1975),Chicago, Illinois.

    “Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

    “1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.

    “2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws.

    “It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.”

    T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18,1884.

    “I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.”

    Protestant Confessions

    Protestant theologians and preachers from a wide spectrum of denominations have been quite candid in admitting that there is no Biblical authority for observing Sunday as a sabbath.

    Anglican/Episcopal

    Isaac Williams, Plain Sermons on the Catechism , vol. 1, pp.334, 336.

    “And where are we told in the Scriptures that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day …. The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but because the church has enjoined it.”

    Canon Eyton, The Ten Commandments , pp. 52, 63, 65.

    “There is no word, no hint, in the New Testament about abstaining from work on Sunday …. into the rest of Sunday no divine law enters…. The observance of Ash Wednesday or Lent stands exactly on the same footing as the observance of Sunday.”

    Bishop Seymour, Why We Keep Sunday .

    We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic Church.”

    Baptist

    Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, a paper read before a New York ministers’ conference, Nov. 13, 1893, reported in New York Examiner , Nov.16, 1893.

    “There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week …. Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament absolutely not.

    “To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years’ intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

    “Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history . . . . But what a pity it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!”

    William Owen Carver, The Lord’s Day in Our Day , p. 49.

    “There was never any formal or authoritative change from the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath to the Christian first-day observance.”

    Congregationalist

    Dr. R. W. Dale, The Ten Commandments (New York: Eaton &Mains), p. 127-129.

    ” . . . it is quite clear that however rigidly or devotedly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath – . . ‘Me Sabbath was founded on a specific Divine command. We can plead no such command for the obligation to observe Sunday …. There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday.”

    Timothy Dwight, Theology: Explained and Defended (1823), Ser. 107, vol. 3, p. 258.

    ” . . . the Christian Sabbath [Sunday] is not in the Scriptures, and was not by the primitive Church called the Sabbath.”

    Disciples of Christ

    Alexander Campbell, The Christian Baptist, Feb. 2, 1824,vol. 1. no. 7, p. 164.

    “‘But,’ say some, ‘it was changed from the seventh to the first day.’ Where? when? and by whom? No man can tell. No; it never was changed, nor could it be, unless creation was to be gone through again: for the reason assigned must be changed before the observance, or respect to the reason, can be changed! It is all old wives’ fables to talk of the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day. If it be changed, it was that august personage changed it who changes times and laws ex officio – I think his name is Doctor Antichrist.’

    First Day Observance , pp. 17, 19.

    “The first day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the first day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire Scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any intimation of such a change.”

    Lutheran

    The Sunday Problem , a study book of the United Lutheran Church (1923), p. 36.

    “We have seen how gradually the impression of the Jewish sabbath faded from the mind of the Christian Church, and how completely the newer thought underlying the observance of the first day took possession of the church. We have seen that the Christians of the first three centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time celebrated both.”

    Augsburg Confession of Faith art. 28; written by Melanchthon, approved by Martin Luther, 1530; as published in The Book of Concord of the Evangelical Lutheran Church Henry Jacobs, ed. (1 91 1), p. 63.

    “They [Roman Catholics] refer to the Sabbath Day, a shaving been changed into the Lord’s Day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath Day. Great, say they, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments!”

    Dr. Augustus Neander, The History of the Christian Religion and Church Henry John Rose, tr. (1843), p. 186.

    “The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a Divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic Church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday.”

    John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday , pp. 15, 16.

    “But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel …. These churches err in their teaching, for Scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect.”

    Methodist

    Harris Franklin Rall, Christian Advocate, July 2, 1942, p.26.

    “Take the matter of Sunday. There are indications in the New Testament as to how the church came to keep the first day of the week as its day of worship, but there is no passage telling Christians to keep that day, or to transfer the Jewish Sabbath to that day.”

    John Wesley, The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., John Emory, ed. (New York: Eaton & Mains), Sermon 25,vol. 1, p. 221.

    “But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of his coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken …. Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other.”

    Dwight L. Moody

    D. L. Moody, Weighed and Wanting (Fleming H. Revell Co.: New York), pp. 47, 48.

    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word ‘remember,’ showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?”

    Presbyterian

    T. C. Blake, D.D., Theology Condensed, pp.474, 475.

    “The Sabbath is a part of the decalogue – the Ten Commandments. This alone forever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution . . . . Until, therefore, it can be shown that the whole moral law has been repealed, the Sabbath will stand . . . . The teaching of Christ confirms the perpetuity of the Sabbath.”

    Roman Catholic declarations regarding the change from Sabbath to Sunday:

    Catechism of the council of trent for parish priests, translated by McHugh and Callan; 1937,P.402:

    “But the Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday.”

    The Convert’s Cathechism of Catholic Doctrine, by Peter Geiermann,1910, page 50.

    Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
    Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
    Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
    Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea(A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

    Those who embrace Sunday as the Sabbath or Lord’s day are paying homage to Rome, and to the power which enforces the institution ordained by Rome. God instituted the 7th day Sabbath(Saturday) at Creation(Genesis 2:1-3).

    The Holy Bible is our only safeguide not mis-guided powerful men in our history. (Sabbath test)

    One very controversial subject among Christians today is God’s Seventh Day Sabbath. Some Christians are not even aware that the Sabbath is Saturday.

    The Bible tells us clearly in Daniel that a persecuting power would change God’s laws which it did – the Seventh Day Sabbath became the first day sabbath without God’s approval. The book of Daniel also refers to this change of God’s law by the antichrist power as reaching to the host of heaven and trampling the heavenly sanctuary under foot. We find the same expression used in Hebrews chapter ten in reference to wilful sin.

    Hebrews 10:26-29 “For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO more sacrifice for sins, … He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

    This passage warns us that there remains no sacrifice to cover wilful sin and to continue in wilful sin is to trample the Son of God under foot and to treat Christ’s work on the cross as an unholy thing despite being under grace. This is a warning we should take very seriously.

    The change to the Sabbath day came about over hundreds of years and by the death of millions of Christians. This is another fact that most Christians are unaware of. Select the following to watch a typical true story of the death of a Sabbath keeper by burning.
    Why is the Sabbath Day truth not taught?

    If these points are true, why don’t we hear more pastors teaching them? If the Sabbath is Saturday, then why don’t the majority keep the true Sabbath day? How could the majority be wrong and even more to the point, do we still have to keep the Seventh day Sabbath at all? Revelation 13 tells us that Satan would give position and authority to the persecuting power described in Daniel that changed God’s law. Why do you think Satan did this? This power that persecuted the saints for 1260 dark years murdered anyone found keeping the Seventh day Sabbath according to the Commandment of God. Anyone that had a different view to this persecuting power was considered a heretic and heretics were to be burned. As a result, the Sabbath truth was nearly murdered out of existence and since most Churches originated from this persecuting power, most Churches now ignorantly keep the wrong day they instituted. The final change to the Sabbath day was in the fourth century but note that the change originated from Satanic and pagan Sun worship as early as 2000 B.C. Remember that Satan was responsible for all of this and did not go to all this effort for no reason.

    Since the majority grow up with Sunday worship as their custom, it becomes very much a mind set and people are also very reluctant to accept change or alter their lifestyle. Saturday is also a day that is not convenient for most Christians and so sadly, most would rather not know truth and go into denial. Because of these factors, even when a pastor is presented with the Sabbath truth, it becomes difficult to both accept and see. This instantly gives the enemy the upper hand as he now just whispers in your mind, “the day does not matter. If it mattered everyone would know about it and would be keeping Saturday.” Sadly, all too many listen and never investigate and Satan continues to be victorious in keeping Christians ignorantly breaking one of the Commandments of God. Billy Graham was said to have acknowledged the Sabbath truth but stated, “If I were to teach this truth, I would lose most of my listeners.” Jesus said we are to both obey and teach the law and one cannot sacrifice truth at any cost. The enemy has gone to extreme lengths to make sure the Sabbath truth is not taught or believed and continues to go to extreme lengths and deceptions to keep us ignorant of this truth. Knowing he has done this, Christians should realise that it is very relevant and extremely important we know why. For example, how important is sin to God?

    Many say the Sabbath was changed to Sunday in honour of the resurrection and others say it was nailed to the cross. Others will tell you any day can be kept as the Sabbath day as long as you keep one. And still others say as long as you do everything to the glory of God the Sabbath is as good as kept. And yet still others will say it is legalism. Worst of all, and this is becoming more popular by the decade, some say the Ten Commandments are gone. Never underestimate the enemy’s ability to slowly and subtly bring heresy into the Church and make those with the most Biblical truth to get labelled falsely as cults or legalists. It should be obvious that Satan will always attack truth the hardest and sadly he has no trouble finding those he can deceive to accomplish his task very convincingly. The fact of the matter is that what is popular is not always truth and what is truth is not always popular.

    Since the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments that defines what sin is, why wouldn’t Satan attack this one Commandment that is the easiest one to attack and do everything in his power to ensure that it does not get recognized or taught so he can get many to live in lawlessness? If one truly studies this and checks it with unbiased history, you will in fact find that Satan has achieved this goal and because most Christians do not study the Word and tend to rely on what their friends or pastor tells them, the lie continues to perpetuate.
    What is the Sabbath Day all about anyway?

    Our Creator God starts off the fourth Commandment with the word “Remember.” This is because He knew it would be lost and forgotten. God asks that we keep the Sabbath set apart for Holy purposes so we can draw nearer to Him. The Fourth Commandment to remember the Sabbath concludes the section of the Ten Commandments that specifically helps define a proper relationship with God, how we are to love, worship and relate to Him. It explains why and when we need to take special time to draw closer to our Creator. It is also a special sign between us and God forever, that it is Him that sanctifies us; Him alone who we belong to and worship. The Sabbath, the Seventh day of the week was set apart by God as a time of rest and spiritual rejuvenation. So why is this Commandment so frequently ignored, attacked and explained away by so many Christians? Could it be because the challenges to the Sabbath Commandment are views generated by the ruler of this present evil world? After all, this being wants us to accept these views because he hates God’s law. He does all he can to influence us to ignore, avoid and reason our way around it. On our calendar the Sabbath begins at sunset Friday evening and ends at sunset Saturday evening.

    Those that keep the true Sabbath day say that it is a blessing and their favourite day of the week. The Sabbath is quality time with family and relaxing and fellowshipping with God and other Christians. Jesus said we are to not only obey the Ten Commandments but teach them also yet some people are doing the opposite. Why are these people so determined to take this blessing from those who keep the Sabbath properly, and in the way Jesus intended and not like the Pharisees who turned it into a legalistic burden? What spirit is behind this? Why do so many professed Christians try so desperately hard to avoid this special time with their Creator God on His Holy day? The Sabbath should be our favourite day of the week and it is for those who have searched for the Sabbath truth and found it. God says we are to find this day a delight and a blessing. God did not say we should call it legalism or a burden!

    Isaiah 58:13-14 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a DELIGHT, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shall honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shall you delight thyself in the LORD…”

    Like all the other nine Commandments, IT IS a Commandment of love and thus loving God with all your heart includes all the first four Commandments. We know this for a fact because right after the second reading of the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy chapter 5, we are shown in Deuteronomy 6:5 that LOVING God with all our heart, might and soul is to keep ALL the Ten Commandments that had just been read in the previous chapter only 17 verses earlier. That of course makes ALL Ten Commandments eternal. Our God is not a God of confusion that mixes a law that defines what love and sin is with something that is not love or not sin. Whether we understand it or not, to try and find reasons as to why the Sabbath is changed or ended is no different from trying to find excuses as to why it is now acceptable to worship idols or commit murder etc. There is another law found in the Old Testament that was only for the Jews and had ceremonial sabbaths but God did not place His Sabbath in this law. He placed it in the Ten Commandments because that is where it belongs.

    The Ten Commandments were written in stone while the ceremonial law was written in a book and hence it was also called the “Book of the Covenant.” Have you ever heard the expression “it is not written in stone?” Written in stone means forever. On paper and in a book is temporary. So basically God had two specific laws. One was temporary, written in a book, was not love, only for the Jews, practised because of sin before Christ and why it was nailed to the cross. The other was eternal, written in stone, was love, for everyone, was sin to break and hence was NOT nailed to the cross. Now consider this question very carefully. If the Sabbath of the Lord was temporary and only for the Jews, which law would you place it in? In the temporary law or the eternal law? And is that where God placed His Sabbath? No! God placed His Sabbath exactly where it belonged. He placed it in the law that was love and eternal and for everyone along with the other Nine Commandments that obviously will never and can never end. Since God is not a fool or the author of confusion, then this alone reveals the truth. God makes a distinction between the ceremonial sabbaths and His Sabbath found in the Ten Commandments by exhorting, “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God:” (Exodus 20:10, Deuteronomy 5:14). It is the Lord’s Sabbath! It did not belong to Israel. God further clarifies this by calling His Sabbath, “My Sabbaths,” as in His weekly Sabbaths, (Exodus 31:13, Ezekiel 20:20) while calling the ceremonial sabbaths that were only for Israel, “Her Sabbaths.” Her as in Israel. (Hosea 2:11, Lamentations 1:7)

    If God sent an Angel to tell you that He loves you and sent His only Son to die for you and that He wants you to spend quality time with Him on a specific day that He blessed and sanctified, would you send the Angel back to God with the message, “sorry God, that day is not convenient for me” or “no God, I can’t spend that time with you on your Holy day, that’s legalism” or even, “tell God that it does not have to be on His Holy day and I will spend time with Him on that day that was used for Sun worship that He detested instead.” Is that what we would really say? Why is it so hard for us to rest in Jesus on His Holy day?

    Many believe that there are only one or two denominations or groups that keep the true Sabbath day when there are in fact over five hundred different denominations of Sabbath keeping Churches that that keep the true 7th day Sabbath and the count is growing. Whole chains of Churches are changing back after attending Prophecy seminars run by people that have not been deceived by Satan’s attempt to keep Christians in the dark on the Sabbath truth or Bible prophecy believing it cannot be understood. Do these hundreds of different Church denominations with millions and millions of members know something that we don’t?
    Why is the Sabbath Day so important to God?

    We have already noted that God intended the Sabbath to be a blessing to us and has asked us to call His Sabbath a DELIGHT, but what else makes the Sabbath so important to God?

    Most people understand that it is morally wrong to lie, steal, murder and to worship idols or take the Lord’s name in vain etc, but the reason Satan is so successful in keeping so many from the Sabbath truth is because it is easy for him to convince the multitudes it is not important. Sadly, most do not see the Sabbath as important as on the surface breaking the Sabbath does not appear to be morally wrong. The question is; does God see the Sabbath day as being important? If it is important to God then it has to be important to us. Since God made His Sabbath part of the Ten Commandments, it becomes sin to break the Sabbath as sin is breaking any of the Ten Commandments. Sin is the reason Jesus died on the cross for us and it does not get more serious than that. We should know how much God detests sin but what are some other reasons that make the Sabbath so significant?

    Exodus 31:13-17 “Speak you also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a SIGN between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the LORD that does SANCTIFY you. … 15 Six days may work be done; but in the Seventh is the Sabbath of rest, Holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL covenant. 17 It is a SIGN between me and the children of Israel FOR EVER: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the Seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”

    Ezekiel 20:20 “And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a SIGN between me and you, that you may know that I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD.”

    The Sabbath is a special SIGN that defines that we are God’s children and He is our God that sanctifies us and makes us Holy. It also defines therefore that it is God who we worship and love and give our allegiance to. It is not a SIGN when we keep a secular day and profane God’s Sabbath. There is a lot more that could be cited but this should be enough to help you understand why this day is important to God and why it is a sin against God for us to not keep His Sabbath day Holy. Is there anyone who does not want to be part of this SIGN?

    Some will say that this perpetual covenant that is a SIGN forever, (Exodus 31:13-17) applies only to the Israel of God and this is correct. The question is; who is the Israel of God? Today there is an Israel of the flesh (1 Corinthians 10:18) and an Israel of God, Galatians 6:16. The Israel of the flesh consists of those who are Jews by birth. The Israel of God is anyone who belongs to Christ and is under the New Covenant. Many do not understand that if we are Christ’s then we are spiritual Jews and the Israel of God. If we reject this truth then we cannot be under the New Covenant. Observe who the New Covenant was ONLY made with. This came into effect when the Jews rejected God’s message from Stephen (Acts 6:8-7:60) and stoned him. See also Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8 and Galatians 3:28-29. See also Daniel’s 70 weeks or 70 weeks of Daniel.

    Hebrews 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:”

    Since the Sabbath is a SIGN that we are God’s children, if we reject His Sabbath, then aren’t we rejecting God as our Father? And since the Sabbath is a SIGN that it is God that sanctifies us, if we reject His Sabbath, then aren’t we also rejecting His sanctification? All God asks from us is one single solitary day in seven. We still have the other six secular days to do as we please. Is one day an unreasonable request from our Creator God? Christians claim to love God with all their heart, might and soul, yet how do most respond? The number seven represents completion and perfection to God and this is the only reason we do have a seven day week. If not for this very special Sabbath day God has given us, we would only have a six day week. If we do not use this Seventh day Sabbath which God blessed and sanctified for this one and only use, what point is there in having this Seventh day of the week? God added this one and only day with this one and only purpose, so we could spend Holy time with our Holy God that is a most beautiful SIGN that He is our God and we are His children. Again, despite this blessing, how do most respond? Believe it or not, I have had enough excuses now to fill an entire book. An appropriate name for this book would be, “The book of excuses for not having to spend time with your Creator God on His Holy day.”

    How God must grieve every time someone chooses one of these 1001 excuses. Does God know our heart? If we use one of these excuses will God know? Does God know if we don’t want the truth about His day because it would be an inconvenience to us? If we use one of these 1001 excuses, can we truly say we love God with all our heart, might and soul? If we do not love God with all our heart, will God accept us into His kingdom?
    What are the consequences for not keeping the Sabbath Day?

    The book of James tells us if we break one Commandment we have broken them all. So if the Sabbath is Saturday and if we are supposed to be keeping the true Sabbath day then most Christians are guilty of breaking God’s law. The Bible tells us that only a few will find the straight and narrow gate. Was this referring to Christians specifically?

    Noah preached for 120 years that a great flood was coming and only 8 were saved. Jesus said that at the time of His second coming it is going to be like in the days of Noah. Why do we only acknowledge what we want to see? God pleads with us as to why we would perish.

    Hosea prophesied that God’s people would perish for a lack of knowledge which does not sound fair but then he explains it is because they would reject knowledge in regards to the Commandments of God, so He in return would reject them. Considering how many people have rejected knowledge on the Sabbath Commandment, this sadly makes perfect sense.

    Hebrews 10:26-29 says there is no sacrifice to cover wilful sin and it is to trample the Son of God underfoot and count the blood of the New Covenant as an unholy thing despite being under God’s grace. Jesus says to those who practice lawlessness, He will deny access to the kingdom. So if we are supposed to keep the Sabbath day and are ignorant of this fact, how will we be judged? Would God burn someone in Hell for being ignorant? What about denial?

    It appears that everyone has a different idea about this issue of the Seventh day Sabbath truth. When there is so much confusion and conflicting information you know that deception reigns and one seriously needs to investigate to find what the truth really is and especially when the consequences for deliberate sin is to be left out of the kingdom.
    Are all the Ten Commandments still valid?

    If something as important as the Ten Commandments were to change by even the smallest amount we would be told with crystal clear scriptures. Most Christians will not debate that nine of the Ten Commandments need to be obeyed but so many freely sweep one under the carpet that becomes too much of an effort for them. Denial of truth of any of the Ten Commandments has only one outcome as far as God is concerned and we do not want that path. Unless black and white scriptures can be produced that says the day has changed or been abolished, then the Sabbath is just as valid as the other nine Commandments and the consequences are the same for deliberately breaking any one of them. Does anyone believe they can freely murder as they please and still enter the kingdom of God?

    So do all the Ten Commandments still stand or does the Bible indicate that we can live in wilful deliberate sin? We certainly are saved by God’s Grace through faith in Christ, but is this a license to continue in sin? Did Jesus die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sin or so we could go on living in sin? What does the only source of truth that we can trust have to say on this very important topic that nailed our loving Saviour to the cross? Here are the answers put simply by scripture alone while covering the main areas of confusion.

    What is the Bible definition of sin? 1 John 3:4. So where there is sin, there has to be a law. Romans 4:15. If there is no law then there can be no sin and if there is no sin then there is no need for a Saviour.

    Did Paul say we can sin now that we are under Grace which would therefore show the law had ended? Romans 6:1-2, Romans 6:14-15.

    Paul taught on the law and Galatians in chapters 2, 3 and 4 and Romans 3 that no flesh is justified by the works of the law and that righteousness comes by FAITH. Does this therefore mean that the Ten Commandments are made null and void through FAITH? Romans 3:31. So who is justified before God? Romans 2:13.

    Did Jesus say He came to do away with the law? Matthew 5:17. Did Jesus say He was going to change the law by even so much as one single letter? Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17. Did Jesus say we have to teach the law as well as obey it? Matthew 5:19.

    Does Jesus say that those who practise lawlessness, which is the breaking of the Ten Commandments, will enter the kingdom? Matthew 7:21-23, 1 John 2:4. So what does Jesus say that one has to do to inherit eternal life? Matthew 19:16-19.

    Can we keep just nine of the Ten Commandments and are we judged by obedience to the law? James 2:10-12, Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17.

    So what are the consequences for wilful sin, which is wilfully disobeying even ONE of the Ten Commandments? Hebrews 10:26-29, Ephesians 5:3, 5.

    What are the blessings for not living in wilful sin, which is obeying the Ten Commandments in loving obedience? Revelation 22:14.

    The passage in Matthew chapter 5 alone proves that not one letter of the law has changed which means that all scriptures used as arguments for ending or changing the Sabbath truth are being abused or misunderstood. The answers are indisputable and any other arguments would be in total contradiction to the words of Jesus, Paul and James just to name a few. I think Solomon summed it up well with his final conclusion in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.
    Did Jesus and the early Church keep the Sabbath Day?

    If the Sabbath is an unchanged Commandment, then we should find Paul and the early Church keeping the Seventh day Sabbath. If this can be demonstrated, this would also prove that the Sabbath was not changed or abolished. So can we demonstrate this? We can of course and do in fact find Paul keeping the Sabbath as his CUSTOM was since childhood in a Jewish Synagogue.

    A custom is something you do religiously and without failure. What was Paul’s CUSTOM and EXAMPLE while establishing the early Christian Church? Notice in the following verse that this is a Jewish synagogue and that Jews have all through history, without change, worshipped on Saturday as they still do today. Acts 17:1-2. The Jews and Pharisees which Paul was since CHILDHOOD have ALWAYS kept Saturday as the Sabbath. Acts 26:4-5.

    This is proof conclusive of Saturday Sabbath keeping AFTER the cross and undoubtedly applies to both Jews and Gentiles if wondering. Acts 13:42-44; Acts 18:4. It was not only Paul’s custom and example but that of Jesus also and He is our perfect example. Luke 4:16. And unless Jesus is into making meaningless and nonsensical statements, He also clarified beyond all doubt that the Sabbath would definitely NOT end at the cross by His reference to the future destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when he said, “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath” Matthew 24:20. See also New Testament Sabbath.
    What Day is the Sabbath – Who changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

    Below are statements from the Roman Catholic Church which give the simple answer as to why most Churches now keep Sunday as the Sabbath. Most Christians have no idea that this even happened or how it happened. Revelation 13 tells us that Satan gave his power and authority to the Catholic Church. Why? It was Satan’s plan to have this Church change the Sabbath to Sunday. Why did Satan do this? The Sabbath is about who we give our allegiance to. If we obey God and keep His Sabbath day Holy, we give our allegiance to God. If we obey the Commandment of the Catholic Church and keep their day Holy, who do we give our allegiance to then? The Catholic Church answers this question below with two of their quotes. But looking deeper, who gave this Church power so God’s true day of worship could be changed? Read Catholic Church Statements about the Sabbath or Sabbath Statements by the Catholic Church for more quotes.

    Does the Bible support the change to Sunday?
    “Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” Rome’s Challenge
    http://www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003

    “For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.” Catholic Virginian, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”

    Who Made Sunday Holy?
    “Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power…People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

    “Question – Which is the Sabbath day?
    “Answer – Saturday is the Sabbath day.
    “Question – Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
    “Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

    Whose Day of Worship is Sunday?
    “They [the Protestants] deem it their duty to keep the Sunday holy. Why? Because the Catholic Church tells them to do so. They have no other reason…The observance of Sunday thus comes to be an ecclesiastical law entirely distinct from the divine law of Sabbath observance…The author of the Sunday law…is the Catholic Church.” Ecclesiastical Review, February 1914.

    “It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address reported in The News, Elizabeth, New Jersey, March 18, 1903.

    Who Do We Reverence by Keeping Sunday Holy?
    “It was the Catholic church which…has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church.” Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

    “I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.” father T. Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, i

  • [EDITED by DTW: This is not an advertising space for SDA’s]

  • [EDITED by DTW: This is not an advertising space for SDA’s]

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Nerfititi wrote:

    Deborah, kindly note that Jesus came to banish the Jewish Laws and customs and that is why He constantly cursed the Jews cause they had their own cultural laws for example – that woman were not allowed in the synagogues,etc, there are many more of the Jewish laws He banished. If you read through the synoptic gospels you will discover that Jesus lived out the whole Ten Commandment Laws and has actually told us in His word that the law is easy to live out by the power of the Holy Spirit and not too difficult. My sister you need to go into the full history of the law and the events that happened outside of the bible will make you understand what God is saying in His WORD. In you read in Revelation is says that at the coming of Jesus He declare “Here are the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Read the book of Revelation you will see it reveals what will happen in our day as well as when Jesus comes. Can you imagine what this world would be like if we had no laws in place. The Lords Law will always stand troughout the ages.If you need more info on this topic let me know. God Bless yhou all

    GE answers:

    The way you write, it seems Jesus Christ made no difference. You plead for veneration of the Law. Is it not enough the Jews have for thousands of years tried to prove just what you intend to prove with the Law, BUT FAILED!?

    If you are a Christian, why not rather plead that Christ should be revered rather than the Law? Or do you disagree that Christ did make a huge difference for the good and salvation of men?

    Yes, the Law must be kept— so that we humans will be shown to be the sinners we are in need of a Saviour and Redeemer from “the Strength of sin” which “is the Law”!

    For example: Do you believe you should keep the Sabbath holy? Then WHY do you believe it? Because the Law says you must? Then you are not better off than the hapless Jews who believe exactly that. But receive Jesus Christ through grace as the ONLY reason why you may do ANYTHING in life, you MUST have reason WHY you have Jesus Christ for believing and doing it. HERE, is where all roads part in opposite directions, because once Jesus Christ through grace becomes the reason why one believes and does EVERYTHING he believes and does as a Christian, it is because Jesus Christ conquered death through his death and RISING FROM THE DEAD AGAIN.

    Is Jesus’ RESURRECTION the foundation and the substance and the essence and the motive and motivation? Is Jesus Christ “the all in all fulfilling FULLNESS of God”? Is He it where the Scriptures say He is it— in his RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD? Ephesians 1:19-23?

    For example: Do you believe “the Sabbath Day is still valid for the People of God to keep” Hb4:9, “BECAUSE JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST … HE HAVING ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD IN HIS OWN” verses 8 and 10? Do you believe “the keeping of the Sabbath Day” on strength of the free-setting TRUTH that Jesus ROSE from the dead?

    Then HOW would you believe and live that belief if you not believed He rose from the dead “ON the SABBATH DAY”, but believed the Sabbath like the Jews because the dead and killing letter of the Law told you to? Aren’t you just a legalist like them if you did?

  • SDA

    Hi Deborah

    Out of all the SDA fundamental beliefs, you mention 1. And then proceed to mis-interpret it.

    Nothing there says that any doctrine or belief is based on EG White’s teaching or writings.

    Where do you get that from? You read the other Beliefs, didn’t you..? and which of those bear any resemblance to anything EG White. All originate from the Bible…..

    The Fundamental Belief you have in Question: Gifts of the Holy Spirit is Prophecy.

    It’s a recognition of her ministry, as being a gift of the Holy Spirit. Her ministry offers much guidance, instruction, correction etc.. In as much It says, and ends with, “her writings make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching must be tested”….So she actually lends credibility to the Bible as being the true and actual word of God, by which everything must be tested…

    That is her function and contribution to the SDA Church.. While so many out there, non Christians, atheist, try to discredit the Bible.

    Thanks for your views, and opinions… but I wonder about your Abilities of Discernment now…

    It seems like you trying to mask the truth more than anything…. with a biased fixed mind-set. Hardly Discerning.

    Were you an SDA in the past? you really seem to hate the SDA Church.

    You probably met SDA’s who replace the Bible with EG White’s teachings. They do exist…..Call that small group a cult.. Also the followers of Veith are cultish. The Rest of the SDA’s at large are Christians, Protestants…… Who go to church for Jesus, Every Sabbath.. to Worship and Praise Him!

    Lets not discuss doctrines… people… Churches.. and point everything out which we think is not perfect or the way we like with the Gospel…We all need to be well grounded in our faith, and belief in Salvation through grace through Jesus Christ our Saviour. That is the only protection from false teachings….. lets not lean too much on our own understanding…

    What is Truth? Do you know?

  • SDA

    @ Kevin

    I like what you say. Your Comments are Fair!

    There are many people in our church & many other churches who need the true conversion, you spoke about.. There are so many unconverted Christians out there in all churches and denominations…

    We should just tell people about Jesus, Repentance, Forgiveness of Sins, Salvation… Allow the holy Spirit to work.

    I know how you feel…That exclusivity and holier than thou attitude exists in many other Christians out there…. In fact on this article thread!

    When are people gonna realize, its not about doctrines, and denominations…???

    Thanks for your support… Brother in Christ!

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    Dan, since you opened the can of worms, I feel that it must be at least briefly addressed although not intended to lead into a full-fledged discussion. For another time and another day.

    My experience with Sabbatarianism is that it is a very dangerous doctrine. This applies to any group that rigidly holds to the view whether they be Messianic (which is in my view a plan of the enemy to divide the Church) or any sect that worships on Saturday exclusively.

    You err if you believe that the Sabbath was established at creation. It was established in the Law set up for the children of Israel. Get the key word Law. As believers we are no longer under the Law and Jesus is our Sabbath rest.

    The Messianic movement extends the Law rather than giving freedom from it. It also creates a separate group removed from the general Body of Christ and retains the traditions of Judaism over the fulfillment of the Law by our Savior. It is ironic that although intended to attract Jewish people to Christ what often happens is that it attracts non-Jewish folks who are intrigued with the feasts and traditions and even come to think they have to learn Hebrew to fully understand the Bible.

    A study of the feasts is beneficial only to show their significance of how our Lord was a fulfillment and completion of them.

    I have personally seen the damage that can be done as people become out of balance and hung up on this issue and Sabbatarianism is a big part of it.

    GE comments:

    Well said! And true …for the most part.

    Unfortunately your own bias betrays itself in your last observation.

    Yes, these people are ultra legalists, especially as far as THEIR Sabbath-keeping is concerned.

    But what about the two far MORE dangerous and damaging traits of their religion, characteristics NOT ‘Old Testamentish’, but ‘Christian’? Their HERESIES of Unitarianism and Arminianism?

    You as an adversary of these Islamic ‘Christians’, must rather concentrate your resistance on these errors and not against the pure Biblical truth of — note the SCRIPTURE’S name for it — “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD God Almighty”.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Ek hou baie van die pienk gesiggie! OULIK!

    “Uit die mond van die suigeling hoor jy die WAARHEID!!!

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Jurgen wrote:

    G…………. interpretation of the LAW, and what it the LAW means. Could I explain it as follows – if today there is NO LAW, and no NEED for the law then today there is NO need for GRACE! No one extends mercy, or grace, or absolution from punishment, if there is no measure for the offence in the first place. This “measure” is the LAW. So, if there is NO law, then there is NO need for grace, no need for a sacrifice, and no need for the high priest (Christ) to intercede with God. The concept that “once there was the law, and now the law has been abolished” is incorrect. The scriptures state that the law was FULFILLED, and does NOT state the that law was ABOLISHED!
    …………….

    GE Comments:

    The ‘LAW’, for the Christian, means, and is, Jesus Christ.

    Does that detract from the glory of the ministration of death, the Law? No! That is the FULFILLMENT of it; that is its glory, that Jesus Christ fulfilled the “MINISTRATION OF DEATH” upon, and in, HIMSELF! Christ ‘abolished the Law’! He sent Himself to hell for to save many from it.

    If today there were no SAVIOUR, and no NEED for Him, then today there is NO GRACE for you or me!

    No sinful man would extend mercy, or grace, or absolution from punishment; it’s just AGAINST HIS GRAIN. Therefore he makes laws as a measure for the punishment for the offence.

    God is not like man; He is not a sinner like us who deserve what we get for being what we are. But grace astonishes us or grace is not grace. Grace is not discoverable in the Law or death; grace reveals itself in LIFE in Christ and through Christ who took upon himself human mortality and corruptibility. He became the Law to bear the Law and the punishment of the Law.

    This “measure” of the Law, Jesus Christ, IS our LAW; He is the Measure of the Law for us— if we are believers in Him, that is to say.

    So, if there were no sin, then was there NO need for grace or Christ, and no need for the “Sacrifice of: HIMSELF”!
    (I understand the SDAs removed this Word from the Word of God in their own ‘bible’.) ,

    What I do know myself for a fact, is that the SDAs aggressively TEACH Jesus was not High Priest in order to make sacrifice in the first place! I wrote a book through debating on the issue, books 6/1 and 6/2, which can be found here: http://www.biblestudents.co.za. [EDITED BY DTW – Please be cautious reading anything else. Thank you]

    Seventh-day Adventism demands that Christ since 1844 only, because He HAD not made atonement for sin while he was on earth – according to them –, became High Priest so that He could administer his blood in what they call the ‘heavenly sanctuary’s’ ‘most holy place’ to “NOW”, “make atonement for sin”. That is why YOU wrote: “… no need for the high priest (Christ) to intercede with God”— obviously implying, to make atonement for sin. Which without a doubt proves (to me) that YOU are a Seventh-day Adventist, Jurgen!

    Why not be open about it?

    The concept that “once there was the law, and now the law has been abolished” is NOT incorrect. The Scriptures state that the law was “NAILED TO THE CROSS”, and was “TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY”. And THAT, was, and is, and for ever will be HOW Christ “FULFILLED” the Law. Yea THAT, was Christ’s OBEDIENCE to the Law and his obedience OF the Law ….that is, his ‘fulfillment’ of “the Law which is the STRENGTH of sin”. Why don’t the SDAs ever mention this word from the Scriptures?

    Therefore the Scriptures do STATE that The Law was ABOLISHED! It states it where throughout its content and length and depth and width the Bible declares that Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God and the content and the depth and the width and the height of God’s Love.

  • Leon

    Everything we teach is totally out of the Bible and not from EG White’s writings. Why the fuss, since every church has a founder. Deborah you said we should test our prophet, we have, and again I will give you only facts.

    1. Matt 7:16 – By their fruits – she passes
    2. Deut 18:22 – The prophecies must come to pass. We have a whole book on all her predictions that came to pass, and there are still a few scary ones coming.
    3. Isa 8:20; 1 John 2:3; Rev. 12:17 – To the Law and to the testimony. Satan the false spirit hates everything containing a law.
    4. Gal. 1:8 – Must speak according to Scriptures. I think we have already proven that.
    5. Rev. 10:11 – The prophet will come after the great disappointment. (This is a study on its own)
    6. Dan. 8:14,26 – The 2300 days prophecy was sealed by a prophet (Daniel) and therefore will be revealed by a prophet at the end.
    7. Matt. 23:34 – A true prophet will be hated by this world. The false prophets will win thousands with excitement, wonders and signs. Matt. 24:24. Rev. 16:14 13:13,14 ; 2 Tes 2:9,10.
    8. Num 24:4 – In vision a prophet goes into trance with eyes wide open. When E White went into visions her eyes did not blink, she once stood with a heavy Bible in one hand showing verses with her other hand. She also did not breath and no air came out of her mouth while speaking, this was confirmed by doctors who tested her. (Dan. 10:17)
    9. Eseg 1:28; 2:1,2 – The glory of God in a vision made her fall and the Holy Spirit picked her up again. All this was witnessed by whole congregations.

    The last ones cannot be faked by false prophets. The words in the later translations of the Bible were changed, which changed the meanings.

    I challenge you, take the best one of all the lies against her and I will proof to you that she was not false. It is the same lies that was brought against Jesus. Have you ever read one of her writings. I doubt!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    SDA

    >>Out of all the SDA fundamental beliefs, you mention 1. And then proceed to mis-interpret it.

    Impossible, since I got the belief off an SDA website. Go figure.

    18. The Gift of Prophecy:
    One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.) –http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

    >>>The Fundamental Belief you have in Question: Gifts of the Holy Spirit is Prophecy.
    It’s a recognition of her ministry, as being a gift of the Holy Spirit. Her ministry offers much guidance, instruction, correction etc.. In as much It says, and ends with, “her writings make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching must be tested”….So she actually lends credibility to the Bible as being the true and actual word of God, by which everything must be tested…

    Funny, the Bible tells us that it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to tell us those things.

    >> Thanks for your views, and opinions… but I wonder about your Abilities of Discernment now…
    >> It seems like you trying to mask the truth more than anything…. with a biased fixed mind-set. Hardly Discerning.

    Discerning is the ability to tell good from evil. It’s not a like a spell checker. My abilities to Discerning are spot on thank you very much.

    >> Were you an SDA in the past? you really seem to hate the SDA Church.

    And SDA in the past? Got to be kidding. No. No no, I don’t hate the SDA church. I just warn against all churches and people who OPPOSE the Gospel of Jesus Christ. SDA is one of the many out there.

    >> Lets not discuss doctrines… people… Churches.. and point everything out which we think is not perfect or the way we like with the Gospel…We all need to be well grounded in our faith, and belief in Salvation through grace through Jesus Christ our Saviour. That is the only protection from false teachings….. lets not lean too much on our own understanding…

    Let us discuss doctrine, because SDA doctrine leads people astray.

    Your Salvation is based on a works based doctrine of keeping the Sabbath. What would happen if you decided to not keep the Sabbath SDA? Would you go to hell? That place were you are just obliterated because SDA’s don’t believe hell is eternal torment.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Tee

    That was such a long comment. I can give you such a short answer.

    1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE WAS THE LAW – (Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE, was the Law of the Sabbath.)
    2) Jesus Christ TAUGHT the Sabbath by having KEPT the Sabbath because he was still on earth and Lord of the Sabbath Day on earth.
    3) When Jesus was crucified many miraculous things took place, one of these being that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and it was written in our hearts (all 10 commandments)
    4) Jesus became our Sabbath rest in all born again Christians – we do not need to WORK anymore to keep this commandment because the HOLY SPIRIT now abides in each and every born again believer.

    You have to work for your salvation, I don’t, because Jesus Christ lives in me. I have the Holy Spirit abiding in me who gives me the most amazing REST and PEACE, He also councils me, guides me, convicts me, instructs me and brings me into all remembrance of who Jesus Christ is.

    Then end.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    SDA

    >> That exclusivity and holier than thou attitude exists in many other Christians out there…. In fact on this article thread

    I’ll take that as you are talking to me. You see, when I ask someone questions they can’t answer or REFUSE to answer, I usually get called names and stuff. So I suppose I should take this as a compliment.

    >> When are people gonna realize, its not about doctrines, and denominations…???

    Oh but on the contrary, IT IS ABOUT DOCTRINE. Tell me, do you view Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons as Christians?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leon

    My church was founded by Jesus Christ.

    You are so deceived :(

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Leon wrote:

    Everything we teach is totally out of the Bible and not from EG White’s writings. Why the fuss, since every church has a founder. Deborah you said we should test our prophet, we have, and again I will give you only facts.

    1. Matt 7:16 – By their fruits – she passes
    2. Deut 18:22 – The prophecies must come to pass. We have a whole book on all her predictions that came to pass, and there are still a few scary ones coming.
    3. Isa 8:20; 1 John 2:3; Rev. 12:17 – To the Law and to the testimony. Satan the false spirit hates everything containing a law.
    4. Gal. 1:8 – Must speak according to Scriptures. I think we have already proven that.
    5. Rev. 10:11 – The prophet will come after the great disappointment. (This is a study on its own)
    6. Dan. 8:14,26 – The 2300 days prophecy was sealed by a prophet (Daniel) and therefore will be revealed by a prophet at the end.
    7. Matt. 23:34 – A true prophet will be hated by this world. The false prophets will win thousands with excitement, wonders and signs. Matt. 24:24. Rev. 16:14 13:13,14 ; 2 Tes 2:9,10.
    8. Num 24:4 – In vision a prophet goes into trance with eyes wide open. When E White went into visions her eyes did not blink, she once stood with a heavy Bible in one hand showing verses with her other hand. She also did not breath and no air came out of her mouth while speaking, this was confirmed by doctors who tested her. (Dan. 10:17)
    9. Eseg 1:28; 2:1,2 – The glory of God in a vision made her fall and the Holy Spirit picked her up again. All this was witnessed by whole congregations.

    The last ones cannot be faked by false prophets. The words in the later translations of the Bible were changed, which changed the meanings.

    I challenge you, take the best one of all the lies against her and I will proof to you that she was not false. It is the same lies that was brought against Jesus. Have you ever read one of her writings. I doubt!

    GE replies:

    Mrs E.g. White, in DA chapter 9, is saying the Father did not raise Christ, but an angel called him from the grave, because the Father was not there, and could not be there on the earth — and the Son only forty days after went up to the Father, and then again that he went up before Thomas could touch him, and again that he QUICKLY went up so that the OTHER women than Mary could touch him etc.. Can’t you judge what Mrs White said BY ITSELF? Why do you need others to see for you— from White herself?

    How about adjuring God the Father was absent when Jesus died; that He did not revive Christ from the dead or called him from the grave, but that an angel did that in his absence; and that He stayed absent and Jesus first had to go into the air and had to refuse the worship of the heavenly hosts until He was ‘approved’ by his Father?

    Does that honour God the Father or the Son?

    I object to EGW and SDA church teaching Christ did not die for sins as God, and that the Father forsook the Son in his dying moment and never interacted or ‘connected’ with the Son until 40 days after the Son resurrected — to which resurrection from the dead a created being – an angel and not the Father – called Him. One of thousands of ASPECTS merely of the single, antichrist idea of the IJ.

    So why did she REJECT the Word of God and spoke the word of satan, that a created being in the ABSENCE of the Father, called the Son of God forth from the grave?

    The ‘work’, is EGW’s ‘Desire of Ages’ chapter 8. The ‘angel’ is the one clothed with the full armour – ‘panoply’ – of God. A creature with the power of God? Nevertheless, THAT, ‘angel’.

    Now read about Jacob Lorber’s ‘work’ published about 1840-45 to the jubilance of the COG’s who ALSO DENY THE DIVINITY OF JESUS. It does not surprise that the SDAs have virtually the exact same story of Jesus’ resurrection, who deny He died, being God, or was raised BY THE FATHER, being that same Infinite FULLNESS of Divinity in Himself.

    When I read this chapter in DA for the first time in my life — about three years ago just before my sister passed away — it was the beginning of my own private crusade against Seventh-day Adventism. Read the three books 6/1,2,3 http://www.biblestudents.co.za. [EDITED BY DTW – Please be cautious reading anything else. Thank you] At that stage — only about three years ago — I did not even know about Jacob Lorber or his visions and inspirations ….just like Mrs EG White claimed to have received from God.

    Tell us all, who say you, called Jesus from death and the grave? The angel? Yes, or no, please; then shall we all know where you stand….

    What do you believe, did Jesus die a mere man and not God? Yes, or no, please; then shall we all know where you stand…. WITH THE SDAs OR WITH CHRISTIANITY.

    Here are the FACTS, obviously to your utter disgust:

    EGW AND J Lorber wrote that an angel called Jesus from the grave and death in the Father’s absence.

    EGW and JL wrote during the same time in the nineteenth century.

    I do not say EGW copied from Lorber; I ask, who copied from whom? Implying the two of them must have shared some common source, inevitably.

    I reject BOTH for having been FALSE prophets because of the SAME evidence.

    You do with them what you like, whoever you may be.

    Plagiarism….. there’s one passage from DA, Chapter 9, where it tells of the angel that called the Son of God from the dead and grave, virtually IDENTICAL with Jacob Lorber’s ‘New Revelation of John’. I have been wondering about WHO PLAGIARISED FROM WHOM because two people during the same period in history JUST CANNOT write SO IDENTICAL.

    Can you explain to me, better? SDA?

    E.G. White is a false prophet. This shows that she was. Try deny it….

    EGW said an angel called the Son of God from the grave while the Father was NOT THERE.

    EGW says the guards SAW the resurrection HAPPEN.

    EGW says the women SAW the resurrection HAPPEN.

    EGW says the guard were the first proclaimers of the Good News of Jesus’ resurrection.

    EGW says Jesus went to heaven and came back in between after He appeared to Mary Magdalene and before He appeared to the other women or the other disciples.

    EGW declared the First Day of the week was a day of rejoicing and to be remembered for the whole universe.

    EGW prophesied the Adventist Church would proclaim the Sabbath more fully, which never happened.

    If one read E.G. White EVERYTHING she wrote takes on that phony look and feel, the holier the more. It’s SO apparent from these ‘visions’ and ‘revelations’ and ‘inspirations’.

    It’s the strangest thing SDAs are totally UNABLE to get that ‘feel’; they are completely mesmerized by E.G. White’s LEGALISTIC and CONDEMNING, INCESSANT ‘outpouring’ of works, works, works.

    Blame anyone for not trusting her or the SDAs in any situation? Not me. Thank God He made me a too great sinner to fall for salvation by works.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    The Truth:
    1. A belief that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected on the third day after his death, and ascended to Heaven 40 days later.
    2. A belief in the Holy Trinity; that although the Trinity comprises three individuals, they are at one in purpose, existing as complete, equal members of the Godhead.
    3. A belief that the Bible is the only, ultimate source of doctrinal instruction; the final word of authority regarding principles or doctrine and belief.
    4. A belief that acceptance of what Jesus Christ did For us in his Atonement is our only source of salvation. (justification through faith) Our works are only results of our conversion (sanctification), and have nothing to do with our salvation.

    SDA lies: Ellen G Whites beliefs

    1. Christ’s death, resurrection, and assention to Heaven:

    — SDA’s believe that Jesus did not die as God but as a mere man, God the Father was absent during Christ’s death, that He did not revive Christ from the dead or called him from the grave, but that an angel instead; God remained absent and Jesus first had to go into the air and had to refuse the worship of the heavenly hosts until He was ‘approved’ by his Father.

    2. A belief in the Godhead of the Holy Trinity.

    — Adventists claim to believe fully in the trinity But Adventists also believe that Christ is Michael the Archangel. They are greatly taken aback when they learn that Christianity cannot accept this belief that in fact it is anathema to Christianity. This destroys the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

    3. A belief in the final authority of the Bible as doctrinal instructor-

    — “The Bible and the Bible only”. Adventists will readily assure the inquiring Christian that their beliefs are based on the Bible alone but the Adventist Church has gone on official record a number of times to demonstrate that Ellen White is the final arbiter, the infallible interpreter of the Bible; and this has commonly been taught from the pulpit to Adventist believers. To my knowledge, not once has Adventism ever taken any position that contradicts Ellen White’s teachings. Adventism must stand or fall on her word.

    4. A belief in Justification through Faith.

    — Here Adventism vehemently proclaims that it believes in justification through faith. This doctrine, however, has caused and continues to cause more confusion in the Adventist Church than any other doctrine the “Justification/sanctification” interpretations from the pen of Ellen White not only contradict the Bible but contradict each other. This leaves the SDA reader who follows Mrs White completely confused on the subject.
    By far the most appalling of Ellen White’s “Justification through Sanctification” heretical statements are these from her most widely-circulated book, The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan:

    “Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil “. (p 425)

    “In that fearful time the righteousness must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor” (p. 614)

    SDA teaches at best a contradictory doctrine of Justification through Faith, in which perfectionism is stressed over faith.

    ————————-

    Other things:

    Ellen G Whites beliefs:

    — Hell is not eternal torment (Unscriptural!)
    — Baptismal regeneration (Unscriptural!)
    — Investigative Judgment (Unscriptural!)
    — Salvation by Works (Unscriptural!)
    — Satan is the joint sin bearer (Unscriptural!)
    — Soul sleep (Unscriptural!)

  • Nerfititi

    Hi everyone, I did not have much time to elaborate on keeping of the law,this will require a series of lessons for you to understand why its important to follow God’s LAW. But this is simple if you love God you will NATURALLY obey all His commandments that He has given to us for our salavation and sanctification. and YES we are saved by JESUS’S BLOOD but it requires us to change and follow HIS LAWS. Following God is holistic, meaning we are saved by JESUS,then HIS WORD to guide us, then HIS health messages which are in the Bible and our deeds and you can add to the list etc..

    On the other hand we are setting a bad example to our fellow muslims,hundis,buddist,jews and even satanists when we are debating about God’s word. How will they ever believe in this GOSPEL when we are confusing ourselves and mis – representing who God is and trying to add our our connotations to His WORD. This has to stop cause you see in the end there will only be two groups left and that would be those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit before the coming of Jesus and those that are the anti -Christ. Also note that bible is both literal and figurative and if you are led by the TRUE SPIRIT OF GOD HE will lead you into all Truth of HIS WORD.
    We will all oneday be united by God’s word and HIS WORD alone. We can learn much from each but we need to stop being critical about this topic, God has never lied in HIS WORD and HE wants the best for us and that’s why HE has given us a set of rules to obey. The TEN COMMANDMENTS IS ON THE MERCY SEAT IN HEAVEN and that is proof that the LAW will always stand. My question to you ALL how will you respond when you see JESUS on the clouds of heaven holding the TEN COMMANDMENT LAWS IN HIS HANDS??? DO THE RIGHT THING AND FOLLOW HIS LAW COMBINED WITH HIS BLOOD THAT SAVES US….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    We do not need lessons. If the SDA are going to TWIST SCRIPTURE then all your lessons are incorrect. I stated to Lee already the following, this is the Gospel Truth of the matter:

    1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE WAS THE LAW – (Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE, was the Law of the Sabbath.)
    2) Jesus Christ TAUGHT the Sabbath by having KEPT the Sabbath because he was still on earth and Lord of the Sabbath Day on earth.
    3) When Jesus was crucified many miraculous things took place, one of these being that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and it was written in our hearts (all 10 commandments)
    4) Jesus became our Sabbath rest in all born again Christians – we do not need to WORK anymore to keep this commandment because the HOLY SPIRIT now abides in each and every born again believer.

    You on the other hand Nerfititi have to work for your salvation, I don’t, because Jesus Christ lives in me. I have the Holy Spirit abiding in me who gives me the most amazing REST and PEACE, He also councils me, guides me, convicts me, instructs me and brings me into all remembrance of who Jesus Christ is.

    Then end.

  • Nerfititi

    Deborah you are totally confused.I have studied many religions before and you are totally wrong about the SDA’S as matter of fact you all are wrong about the SDA’S. You need to re -check the information you have or you will be lost forever….this is said in real concern and love for you ALL. Pray and let God guide you…..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    >> On the other hand we are setting a bad example to our fellow muslims,hundis,buddist,jews and even satanists when we are debating about God’s word. How will they ever believe in this GOSPEL when we are confusing ourselves and mis – representing who God is and trying to add our our connotations to His WORD. This has to stop cause you see in the end there will only be two groups left and that would be those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit before the coming of Jesus and those that are the anti -Christ. Also note that bible is both literal and figurative and if you are led by the TRUE SPIRIT OF GOD HE will lead you into all Truth of HIS WORD.

    Oh please, I am not debating God’s Word. I know fully well the Truth. It’s the SDA who is confused and needs to be rectified like the muslim, hindu, buddhist, jew and even satanist. You are no better than they… Just because you hold a bible in your hands and speak the name of Jesus means nothing. Your church is laden with blasphemies and you lap them up- Scroll further up for SDA lies: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/11/17/warning-sda-evangelistic-drive-amazing-discoveries-2010-mosaic-theatre-10-nov-4-dec/#comment-63693

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    Nope, but good luck to you and all your hard working for your Salvation that you wont attain because God offered you Grace and you throw it right back in Jesus’ face.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> Following God is holistic, meaning we are saved by JESUS,then HIS WORD to guide us, then HIS health messages which are in the Bible and our deeds and you can add to the list etc..

    LOL, I was waiting for that to come into the picture…

  • Nerfititi

    Deborah- You are judgemental and it’s clear you need much prayer.I also do not affiliate myself with churches as they will never get me into heaven. For me God is ever present and its a deep connection to have Him close to me every moment that I breath His air in and out.He is alive to me all day and not only on a Sabbath or Sunday but everyday EVERY MOMEMENT. I don’t need a church to tell me about Him,I only need His WORD AND HOLY SPIRIT to draw me closer to Him and then which ultimately will lead me to His TRUE REMNANT CHRUCH which He talks about in REVELATION.

    You are if not then what do you call it? Quoting the Bible to justify a wrong thing is an abomination in the eyes of God and you have mis – represented Him and the SDA’S

    Maybe you should try them and see for yourself than just down loading info from websites that are error and misleading you…. After all its not about the SDA’S its about God’s WORD. If God was against the SDA’S He would of ended their church which has been exisiting for about 100 years, unlike may other faiths who constantly dissolve….

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    Deborah- You are judgemental and it’s clear you need much prayer.I also do not affiliate myself with churches as they will never get me into heaven. For me God is ever present and its a deep connection to have Him close to me every moment that I breath His air in and out.He is alive to me all day and not only on a Sabbath or Sunday but everyday EVERY MOMEMENT. I don’t need a church to tell me about Him,I only need His WORD AND HOLY SPIRIT to draw me closer to Him and then which ultimately will lead me to His TRUE REMNANT CHRUCH which He talks about in REVELATION.

    You are if not then what do you call it? Quoting the Bible to justify a wrong thing is an abomination in the eyes of God and you have mis – represented Him and the SDA’S

    Maybe you should try them and see for yourself than just down loading info from websites that are error and misleading you…. After all its not about the SDA’S its about God’s WORD. If God was against the SDA’S He would of ended their church which has been exisiting for about 100 years, unlike may other faiths who constantly dissolve….

    So funny, when you are trapped in a corner the first thing you do is start calling me names. Nice ;) Never the less, the truth remains. Did you read the SDA list of LIES? Would you mind commenting on each one. They are all damnable heresies. No point keeping your Sabbath yet the church you belong too DENIES THE DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST!

    >> You are if not then what do you call it? Quoting the Bible to justify a wrong thing is an abomination in the eyes of God and you have mis – represented Him and the SDA’S

    LOL, misrepresent God and the SDA’s? (that’s funny…very funny) Fortunately your god and my God are not the same. So let him be as mad as can be, he is the father of twisting scripture anyhow.

  • Nerfititi

    You are FOOLISH! lIKE I SAID GOD’S WORD IS HOLISTIC and of coarse GRACE IS A FREE GIFT….AND LIKE I SAID ADD TO THE LIST…..THANKS YOU DID BUT YOU NEED TO CHANGE YOUR THINKING….READ LEVITICUS AND YOU WILL DISCOVER THAT GOD IS EVEN CONCERNED ABOUT OUR HEALTH…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    Have you READ THE LIST OF SDA LIES YET? Come now.

  • Nerfititi

    DEOBORAH ITS NOT WORTH IT…BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE AND PERISH AND I WILL DO THE SAME….RE- CHECK YOU SHOULD COUNT YOUR WORD BEFORE YOU ADD COMMENTS…I SAID I STUDIED MANY RELIGIONS AND DONT NEED YOUR WRONG COMMENTS…AND LIES

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    Yes I know….For more than 130 years SDAs have practiced a vegetarian dietary lifestyle because of their belief in the holistic nature of humankind. Whatever is done in eating or drinking should honor and glorify God and preserve the health of the body, mind and spirit…

    Under the NEW COVENANT, the Bible says EVERYTHING is good for us to eat.

    Again… you want to live under the law.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    You wont look at the list because you agree with these things and this is why SDAs are NOT CHRISTIANS.

    And so what if you have studied many religions, so have I. So what. Big deal.

    Look at the list and tell me if you agree with those things? If you know your church/religion so well, it should be a simple YES or NO.

  • Proudly SDA

    My dear Deborah, I truly pray for you. You are the one who is deceived. I know exactly what I am believing in, everything you say is out of the air so fague. It seems to me you are “not really into scripture”. Everything you say is just based on your own opinion. But as I say from now on you will definitly be in my prayers, so that the true Holy Spirit will speak and guide you.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Proudly SDA

    No do not pray for me. I do not accept prayers from other gods.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Well it seems Nerfititi won’t answer those vital SDA questions and has run away. I wonder why. Because the proof is in the pudding – the lies of the SDA church.

  • Nerfititi

    DEBORAH – I DON’T NEED TO READ THE LIES YOU ARE POSTING MAYBE YOU ARE A FOLLOWER OF SATAN….HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS ALWAYS CHALLENGED GOD’S WORD AND LAW AND A REBEL AND SATAN IS SUCCEEDING BY LETTING YOU OPPOSE THE WORD OF GOD,,,HE IS ACTUALLY DECEIVING YOU BIG TIME….YOU WILL COME TO SEE GOD’S TRUE WORD AND IT WILL CHANGE YOU……MAYBE YOU NEED TO TEST THE SPIRIT THAT IS LEADING YOU BUT I CAN TELL IT’S NOT FROM GOD

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Nerfititi

    Those SDA heresies are Ellen G Whites beliefs my dear. Please tell us if you AGREE with Ellen G White’s heresies? You are the one in the church with the prophetess who thought those satanic lies, not me.

    I can see you are very upset. Maybe you need to take some time out and go find out what YOUR CHURCH REALLY BELIEVES, and then leave.

  • Tee

    Deborah I think you have a problem you are contradicting yourself. I can see you have an agenda and for now let me leave you but you haven’t proven to me that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. You are lost my sister. I rest my case

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Tee

    You are talking utter rubbish. I have not contradicted myself anywhere. And I do not need to prove what day the Sabbath falls on because I do not keep the Sabbath day.

    Tell me Tee, do you agree with those SDA heresies? http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/11/17/warning-sda-evangelistic-drive-amazing-discoveries-2010-mosaic-theatre-10-nov-4-dec/#comment-63693 Nerfititi refuses to answer, maybe you have the guts to.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Oh it seems Tee is running away as well. She wont answer to the list of SDA heresies either. What a surprise…

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    ………….
    1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because he was still on earth and under Jewish Law.
    ………….

    GE responds:

    Deborah, it is so characteristic of one who KNOWS he or she is WRONG, to use the presupposed / presumed / AFFECTED, for fact and proof, to prove for fact and truth his presupposed / presumed / AFFECTED— it’s called ‘circular thinking’. Like you have done:

    “1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because he was still on earth and under Jewish Law.”

    What is the presupposed / presumed / AFFECTED? One simple word, that cannot be quoted from the Scriptures, and which is made the foundation of the presupposed / presumed / AFFECTED …the word, “Jewish”. Take out YOUR little word with its BIG meaning, and see what you really wrote, and see if what you really wrote was the TRUTH and what you supplied, converted truth into LIE:

    “1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because he was still on earth and under …Law.” AMAZING!

    Allow me to make a small little ‘improvement’ to your statement, because I would like to say it like this:

    ‘1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because he was still on earth and WAS THE LAW.’

    And a second, if I may:

    “1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE, was the Law of the Sabbath.”

    And a third, please:

    “1) Jesus Christ TAUGHT the Sabbath by having KEPT the Sabbath because he was still on earth and Lord of the Sabbath Day on earth.”

    And so we could go on with innumerable variations on the same THEME because the THEME is genuinely Christian and Scriptural. You could go on ad infinitum and NEVER go contrary the Word of God, because you stayed with the Scriptures. But add just that one little concept CONTRARY the Scriptures, and in one stroke of the pen, you have ‘thought of changing the law and times of God’— like the ‘little horn’ of Daniel. One ‘li-i-i-tle horn’ that thought he’d utter BIG WORDS against the Most High.

    How does one solve this problem of one’s own making? We have seen, by staying with what “is written”. But there is something better, which is, to look more closely at what God had done through Jesus Christ the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, Revelation 3:14,

    that He went that low to come to earth
    and become a Man of the earth,
    “in the flesh”,
    and died,
    and rose,
    from the dead,
    IN the grave,
    in the EARTH,
    in the earth’s TIME:
    “in the SABBATH’S-time”,
    “IN THE VERY DAYLIGHT BEING”—
    “being MID-AFTERNOON OF THE SABBATH DAY”,
    “as day began inclining ON THE SABBATH DAY”,
    “SABBATH’S towards the First Day of the week”.

    Matthew 28:1.
    —every word, every thought, ‘WRITTEN’!—

    Isn’t that wonderful?! So absolutely earthly really, God in his faithfulness in Christ, as He of old by His Word of Oath Promised, “The LORD on the Seventh Day … was REVIVED” FROM THE GRAVE IN THE EARTH. Exodus 31:17.

    The “Jewish Sabbath”? Never! Divine Sabbath Day even in and under the New Testament, “The Lord’s Day”— The Lord JESUS’ Day! Yes!

    Yes! Not ‘Sunday’; “The LORD’S”, “Day”!
    “Therefore the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath Day” …BECAUSE He “Sabbath’s”, “rose from the dead again”!

    Hebrews 13:20, “Now the God of PEACE (the “peace” of God’s, ‘rest’), that brought again FROM THE DEAD our Lord JESUS, that Great Shepherd of the sheep : THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT” of grace “waved before the LORD”, “SABBATH’S!

    “The Jewish Sabbath”?! Do not speak so irresponsibly! It is not respectful to “the Sabbath Day”, not to mention to the “Lord of Sabbath Day”.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Gerhard Ebersöhn

    AHHHH seeeee, I will fix it. Thank you.

  • Tee

    Deborah let me tell you this straight. I am an Adventist and will remain one for the rest of my life. I believe everything that the SDA church upholds and will stand for it scripturally. There is only one thing here. How can you say I am talking utter rubbish. Why are you being so emotional. The truth will remain the truth. It is surprising to me that yoiu did not have the guts to respond to my very long comment instead you just give some three lines. You amaze me my sister. And point of correction I am not a she I am a he. God bless you my dear.Now in conclusion I say read Revelations 14:12 and you will know that the commandments were never abolished. Just realise one thing of all the other people who were writing you are the only one who is still being hard headed. God bless you and I am praying for you

  • Daniel

    Deborah,

    I find the comments on this page quite shocking. The Christian attitude is missing in your comments. Some of the SDA comments made very valid points, and most of them supported what they said with scripture. You just listed a bunch of ‘herecies’ which you claim are herecies, but you are not able to oppose them with scripture. You just assume your way of thinking is correct, and that the way ‘most Christians believe’ is the right way. An open mind is much better in discovering truth. If you stick to other people’s opinions on these subjects instead of going to source material you cannot really have a water tight argument on anything. Maybe you should have told people you will be attending the Carter meetings, and report back after the whole event instead of sending out ‘warnings’ without the needed information.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Tee

    So what you are saying is that you AGREE TO THE FOLLOWING:

    ——————–

    SDA lies: Ellen G Whites beliefs

    1. Christ’s death, resurrection, and assention to Heaven:

    – SDA’s believe that Jesus did not die as God but as a mere man, God the Father was absent during Christ’s death, that He did not revive Christ from the dead or called him from the grave, but that an angel instead; God remained absent and Jesus first had to go into the air and had to refuse the worship of the heavenly hosts until He was ‘approved’ by his Father.

    2. A belief in the Godhead of the Holy Trinity.

    – Adventists claim to believe fully in the trinity But Adventists also believe that Christ is Michael the Archangel. They are greatly taken aback when they learn that Christianity cannot accept this belief that in fact it is anathema to Christianity. This destroys the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

    3. A belief in the final authority of the Bible as doctrinal instructor-

    – “The Bible and the Bible only”. Adventists will readily assure the inquiring Christian that their beliefs are based on the Bible alone but the Adventist Church has gone on official record a number of times to demonstrate that Ellen White is the final arbiter, the infallible interpreter of the Bible; and this has commonly been taught from the pulpit to Adventist believers. To my knowledge, not once has Adventism ever taken any position that contradicts Ellen White’s teachings. Adventism must stand or fall on her word.

    4. A belief in Justification through Faith.

    – Here Adventism vehemently proclaims that it believes in justification through faith. This doctrine, however, has caused and continues to cause more confusion in the Adventist Church than any other doctrine the “Justification/sanctification” interpretations from the pen of Ellen White not only contradict the Bible but contradict each other. This leaves the SDA reader who follows Mrs White completely confused on the subject.
    By far the most appalling of Ellen White’s “Justification through Sanctification” heretical statements are these from her most widely-circulated book, The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan:

    “Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil “. (p 425)

    “In that fearful time the righteousness must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor” (p. 614)

    SDA teaches at best a contradictory doctrine of Justification through Faith, in which perfectionism is stressed over faith.

    ————————-

    Other things:

    Ellen G Whites beliefs:

    – Hell is not eternal torment (Unscriptural!)
    – Baptismal regeneration (Unscriptural!)
    – Investigative Judgment (Unscriptural!)
    – Salvation by Works (Unscriptural!)
    – Satan is the joint sin bearer (Unscriptural!)
    – Soul sleep (Unscriptural!)

    ————————-

    Well thank you for your answer. Much appreciated. Now if anyone comes and reads this thread they will clearly see the devilish doctrines of the SDA church and why we WARN people.

    ————————-

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Revelation 14:12 (Amplified Bible)

    12Here [comes in a call for] the steadfastness of the saints [the patience, the endurance of the people of God], those who [habitually] keep God’s commandments and [their] faith in Jesus.

    Gods commandments here refers to the entire Bible as a whole IN CONTEXT.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Daniel

    Let me guess you are a SDA? Spotted like a sore thumb.

    And by the way, if you can’t tell that those are HERESIES then you have a big problem and I advise you to read this:

    This is a CHRISTIAN WEBSITE where people who come on there actually know a thing of two about the Bible and can spot a devillish idea from a mile away. You think I lack a Christian attitude because I refuse to agree with SDA doctrine. Well to bad, so sad for you.

    If you want scripture, here is scripture: http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book%206,%203%20Save%20the%20Sabbath.pdf An ENTIRE BOOK just for you.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    ——-JESUS CHRIST IS OUR SABBATH REST ————

    This is incorrect, “OUR SABBATH REST”, is “OUR” doing! not God’s, pray?

    Irony of ” OUR SABBATH REST” is, it is OUR, WORK! And there is no righteousness through or of works! So there cannot be something like “OUR SABBATH REST”— it STAYS human energy spent whether on ‘rest’ or ‘work’, no difference.

    Therefore you will nowhere find the Scriptures speak of Christ being “OUR SABBATH REST”; it’s a fallacy. It is not Christ! And Christ also, is not “OUR SABBATH REST”; Christ is the “the Rest of GOD”. “Thus it is written”, and thus only.

    What is more, Jesus Christ is God’s Rest, ja, in his fullness ….BUT, in his resurrection specifically, explicitly, emphatically, ULTIMATELY! Like nowhere, no how, no time, else. “O, That I may know Him and the Power of His RESURRECTION!”

    It MUST therefore be expected that Christ would rise from the dead on the Sabbath Day; God always, rested in Him and through Him, also when “God the Seventh Day rested”. God did not “FINISH on the Seventh Day” finished He not in and through and unto Christ. No blessing of the Seventh Day but the blessing of the Promises of God in Christ. “ALL the works of God”; “FROM all the works of God”, “IN CHRIST”— IN THAT “God RAISED Him from the dead and set Him at His Own Right Hand in heavenly Exaltation.” Ephesians 1:19. Or not at all. “God thus … in these last day … by His Son … concerning the Seventh Day spake.” Is “thus”, still speaking; and into eternity “thus”, will keep on speaking— “BY HIS SON”: “Jesus Christ yesterday, today and tomorrow the same!”

    Had Jesus not been raised from the dead, “SABBATH’S”, God would not “thus concerning the Seventh Day” have spoken! God is the God of truth; and the devil is the father of lies. A word different than “God thus concerning the Seventh Day spake”, He never spake; and a word “thus concerning” a different day, never came from his mouth.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Tee wrote:

    Deborah let me tell you this straight. I am an Adventist and will remain one for the rest of my life. I believe everything that the SDA church upholds and will stand for it scripturally. There is only one thing here. How can you say I am talking utter rubbish. Why are you being so emotional. The truth will remain the truth. It is surprising to me that yoiu did not have the guts to respond to my very long comment instead you just give some three lines. You amaze me my sister. And point of correction I am not a she I am a he. God bless you my dear.Now in conclusion I say read Revelations 14:12 and you will know that the commandments were never abolished. Just realise one thing of all the other people who were writing you are the only one who is still being hard headed. God bless you and I am praying for you

    May GE say something:

    May GE say something:

    Tee, yours is soooo typical SDA audacity; so absolutely Laodecian bombasticism. Ek word naar daarvan! Please remain a SDA for the rest of your life; any other church will be better off without you and the likes of you.

    Now I invite you on this forum to stand for the few errors of your Church which I listed, “scripturally”. I dare you! Those points are simple, not ‘emotional’, matter of fact INCIDENCES OF ERROR; ‘uphold’ it if you can with the help of God’s written Word. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO! You – like all Seventh-day Adventists – are unable, and helpless— pathetic, when it comes to handling the Sword of the Word of God. Yes, the Scriptures are a too dangerous both ways cutting instrument of self-injury : it will cut you to pieces before you knew you can’t play with it like a child with a shot-gun. Don’t even try! And not at home, please; because that’s where 90% of accidents happen and just about 100% of suicides. Try it here, where you might hit someone not of your own household. That will be okay, don’t worry.

    Then about that “very long comment”…. “my comment”? Yours? It’s a botched up colluder of mostly the enemies of SDAtism. How do you reckon those ‘comments’ – coming from your opponents anyway – useful to you? Could you not stay with the Scriptures only? — that’s it, you cannot! Otherwise you would have stayed with the Scriptures solely and would have been short and sweet.

    But without having read your ‘very long comment’ I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT IT WOULD INCLUDE! For example, I could tell you the day before yesterday already it was going to refer to Dwight L. Moody — EVER SO FALSELY. I still haven’t read your “very long comment”, but I’m going to look now if it includes Luther and his remark about Karlstadt — again EVER SO FALSELY I guarantee!

    You blah blah about “guts to respond”…. First I dare your guts to answer that short list of mine of SDA heresies. But who will have the STOMACH to ‘respond’ to such a harangue of irrelevancies and trivialities? You – being a Seventh-day Adventist – do not know the meaning of the word ‘guts’; what apply the thing in practice.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Revelation 14:12 (Amplified Bible)

    12Here [comes in a call for] the steadfastness of the saints [the patience, the endurance of the people of God], those who [habitually] keep God’s commandments and [their] faith in Jesus.

    Gods commandments here refers to the entire Bible as a whole IN CONTEXT.

    GE adds:

    Revelation 14:12 can be read and better understood, if the conjunction ‘kai’ is regarded emphatic: “12Here are those who persevere under suffering—the saints who are faithful to God’s commandments EVEN the faith of Jesus.” God’s Commandments and the Faith of Jesus are the same but the latter is the superlative manifestation of the same.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Proudly SDA wrote:

    My dear Deborah, I truly pray for you. You are the one who is deceived. I know exactly what I am believing in, everything you say is out of the air so fague. It seems to me you are “not really into scripture”. Everything you say is just based on your own opinion. But as I say from now on you will definitly be in my prayers, so that the true Holy Spirit will speak and guide you.

    GE says:

    WOW! if ever something presumptuous and haughty …. grillerig!

  • Derek Gohl

    If you want to be a strong mountain moving devil defeating world overcomming christian better stop listening to all the negative critical faultfinding chritians who don’t have enough power to blow their nose,yet instead of setting the captives free,spend all their spare time peddling fear from their internet soapboxes.Just keep listening to the preachers who build up the body of Christ and avoid the accusers of the bretheren like the plague,or you will become contaminated by their faultfinding spirit,luv in Christ,Derek Gohl

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Tee

    >> Well a lot of you are running from fact. Someone asked why you observe all the other 9 commandments and leave one

    This has already been answered in the comments section. 3 times in fact. We do not leave one out. Jesus came to fulfill the law, it is now written in our hearts. Jesus is the Sabbath day. He is our rest.

    Tee, I am sorry to hear that your church has never told you the truth about SDA and Ellen G White. Go ask them.

    SDA wrote:

    Deborah

    If you think Adventism revolves around EG White, you are wrong, and don’t know enough about SDA’s. We don’t adore her. You have just heard comments and excerpts taken out of context…….

    Its wrong when some SDA people liken EG White to the Bible. She even says in her writings to never do that, and also she says, the Bible is adequate enough on its own to lead us to Salvation. She Never equates herself with God, Jesus, or the Bible.. Crazy Adventist extremists to that! you have people like this through out the Christian world….

    Ellen White is actually one the founders of the Adventist Church.. like John Wesley, Calvin, Luther… etc… They all are not our god’s.. We are not a church based on a human being, But on a God, and the Bible.

    Adventists don’t go against Scripture. We read the same bible’s as you, We don’t publish our own Bible with EG White stuff in there… Thats is just Bad mouthing Adventist. Not a very Christian thing to do…….. I have NIV, New King James, New Century Version, just like you probably do…..

    Don’t glorify Christianity, for with out Jesus its also just another movement based on tradition…

    There are some Adventist who also glorify Adventism… and forget Christ!

    The So called normal Bible Believing Christian world is so far the from the Bible in so many ways… I met 2 different people, who say that their churches don’t even teach about the minor prophets, old testament stuff, but just focus on Paul’s Letters and the Gospels…

    I’m open to worship with many other christians, and churches.. As long as Jesus is the centre and reason for Worship, and not ourselves or tradition. Are you open to Worship with us or any other church?

    GE has a few questions to ask about this…..

    True: “Jesus came to fulfill the law”;
    True: “the law, it is now written in our hearts”;
    True: “He is our rest.”

    Where do we read that?
    In the Scriptures, naturally; but especially in the Scriptures in Hebrews 3 and 4. There, the word “r-e-s-t” is predominant; everyone reads those chapters and sees that with the word “rest”, the Person of Jesus Christ is intended. If one might read these chapters and not see it, then I am wasting my time with him, typing what I’m typing. But if we could both see Christ in these chapters and especially in the word “rest” used, then we may both sing the praises of the Lord for it.

    So we read these two chapters from Hebrews, from beginning to end and EVERY TIME we come across the word ‘rest’, it is the same. That sounds funny to mention, yes. And every time, somehow, we relate the word “rest”, with Jesus Christ, yes. And that never is funny; that every time is serious because only through this connection of the word “rest” and Jesus Christ do we discover the thrust of these chapters, which thrust is towards an understanding of our own salvation. Correct!

    Unfortunately, BENEATH this correct and true READING of these chapters is hidden IN ONE PLACE, the LIE OF THE DEVIL. It is satan’s LIE very cleverly WOVEN IN, in the fabric of the passage so that NO ONE SHOULD NOTICE IT. And no one seems to notice that devilish snare in fact, so that the honest, upright, faithful follower of Jesus Christ shall read with eyes that see but CANNOT SEE because of the satanic cunning lurking underneath that which is being READ. Just like in the beginning, when satan appeared to the woman but in the most wonderful and beautiful body of the ever so innocent appearing snake. Jesus said the devil was a MURDERER from the beginning; and he was. The devil was a murderer from the beginning through his LYING!

    You think the devil changed since? Got good? Got converted? Got much less real because we humans got much better informed and enlightened? You’re in for a surprise! The devil improved a lot on his wickedness and deceptiveness since, yes! Now observe HOW he improved so much: he even learned to EMPLOY THE WORD OF GOD for his wicked schemes. Again, no, that’s what satan has been doing at the beginning already, yea! He twisted the Word of God like an arrow in the air right back at the Speaker of the Word; he makes GOD, the liar! Read the history of the factual truth of the devil’s ways again in Genesis 2 and 3. See if I am telling you a lie here. And if I do, then show it here, you have all the opportunity in the world to expose me for a liar myself if you wish.

    I say, satan the devilish devil has had his filthy hand in the works also here in these BEAUTIFUL chapters from the Word of GOD, in Hebrews 3 and 4 where we EVERY TIME read the word “rest” throughout.

    Let me tell you something you might not have known, actually most probably could not have noticed or have known about in any way. First because of your NOBLE TRUST in the people who actually put that Bible of yours into your hands for its reading. Did Adam and Eve have reason to distrust the devil. Yes and no. They were guilty themselves for having mistrusted God and the Word of God, yes. But they haven’t had first hand experience in unbelief, we must admit in their favour. All that can be said ‘in their favour’ is that they were sinless still as created from the hand of God. I actually cannot really understand it, but anyhow ….did Adam and Eve have reason to distrust the snake as such? No! The snake was just an innocent creature by God’s hand as they. By all appearances the devil was a snake. So Adam and Eve had no reason to distrust the snake; but the DEVIL was in the snake nevertheless!

    Just so here in these two chapters : AS WE R-E-A-D them! Man, simply, the TRANSLATION of the word “rest” is the devil’s deadly VENOM, and the devil’s TEETH are the readers’ TRUST. ““Trust is deceit’s only trust.” C.J. Langenhoven.” What we see, is NOT what we see, when we read Hebrews at this specific place, chapter 4 verse 9, the clause, “There remains therefore a _REST_ for the people of God”, NKJV; “Darum ist noch eine RUHE vorhanden dem Volke Gottes”.

    WHY? Because of the TRANSLATION I said. Because the word in the Greek for the concept of “rest”, is a DIFFERENT word than what is in 4:9 TRANSLATED, “rest”!!! But THAT, who would have known? Who would have seen? Who would have REALISED is a LIE?!

  • Burning Lamp

    I have a simple question for those defending Seventh Day Adventism.

    What is your Gospel – what do you believe one has to do to accept Christ as Savior? Keep it short and simple. I would be interested to know.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Derek Gohl

    My but you must be the smartest man on earth. Not. Firstly, you have just insulted a group of born again Christians trying to open the eyes of the SDA church goers. Secondly you side with Seventh Day Adventists – a cult from hell. And then you speak nonsense about ticking people’s ears with rubbish – that which the bible warns YOU yes you Derek not to do. Very smart you are. Not.

  • Benedict

    Hi everybody,
    This is my 2cts contribution for this hot topic.

    Consider this – sabbath means rest not worship of assembly. Unfortunately this word ‘sabbath’ has not been translated as rest in many passages and either the hebrew or greek word ‘shabbat’ or sabbath has been kept.
    my main contention with the SDA is this – they do not insist so much on the REST day, but insist on the ASSEMBLY or WORSHIP DAY must be on a saturday. This contradicts the scriptures, especially ROMANS 14 and John 4:20:24 – ’20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
    21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
    23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.’
    Worship is no more limited to a place or a day or feast days.
    (By the way, why insist on the 7th day feast and not on the other fests days which were required of the Israelites? According to LEV 23 the weekly sabbath day was the first feast day to be obeserved. No isrealites were to decide for themselves which feast day they want to observe. It was either all or death. God was so demanding.To all SDA, PLEASE GO AND READ LEV 23:1-3 – THE SABBATH IS A FEAST DAY AS ALL THE OTHER FEASTS DAYS, YOU CANNOT PICK AND CHOOSE).

    Jesus said that the sabbath was given for man, for a rest and rejuvenation of his body & mind. Observing this day gives no one any spirirual advantage or benefits, only faith in christ ans his atoning work does give the true spiritual rest that all men need to have to be saved and delivered for the power of sin and death. Heb 3:15-19; 4:1-11. vs 11 ‘Let us LABOUR therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.’ How do you explain that verse?

    I beleive, that it is good for a man to rest on a day that is most convenient to him and his family. But to worship God, no one can insist on any particular day or place. There is no need of a law to tell christans when and where to gather. To the Hebrews, the author (Paul) exhort the christians to “exhort on another daily” (3:13). And the often quoted passage – not ‘to forsake the assembling of ourselves’.

    Please, insist on a physical rest day if you want, but do not make the sabbath a mandatory (make forceful through a law)day for christians to assemble and worship the Father.

    Consider this scripture.
    Heb. 4:8 – ‘For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.’
    The new rest day (the spiritual one, is to come to Jesus and have faith in his work and rest he gives us. Jesus says – Come unto ME, AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST. Rest from our works of sin and from trying to keep the letter of the law who kills. But the spirit of the law of the sabbath, is the true rest for eternity which the Father gives to all men who believes in his son Jesus.
    Please read John 6. It’s an eye and mind opening passage revealed to us by Jesus himself.
    vs – ’26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
    27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.’
    Vs 29 is so clear. Jesus tells us in vs 27 – to labour (work) for the true food that will give us the true life. In vs 29 he clarifes what is this ‘labour’, this work that we must do. It is to believe.
    And in vs 30 the hearers asked Jesus – ‘They said therefore unto him, What SIGN shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?’
    As from there, Jesus start to explain what is this SIGN and what is the WORK he was about to accomplish.

    The sabbath was A SIGN God gave to Israel, to make a distintion between them and the nations around them. In the new covenant, Jesus gives a new SIGN. Faith (trust) in his person and his atoning, finished work through his sufferings, death and resurrection. Today we must LABOUR be have this REST. This is a beautiful oxymoron (two contradict terms which follows). But this LABOUR, WORK is to have faith Jesus and his sacrifice.
    If we believe in another SIGN to have rest, what are we doing with Jesus blood?

    I know that many, including the SDA will argue, that we still have to obey the law of God (Moses). Remembler, the letter of the law kills.
    Obeserving the physical sabbath is of no spiritual advantage. But the true spiritual rest from our works of flesh and death, gives the true life, which the Father wants all men to have, throuh his son.
    Instead of insisting on the letter of the law, please, ask the Father, though his Spirit to show you what is the spirit of the law, revealed in the new covenant and insist on these things.
    May The Father open our minds so that we can see the riches of His grace and know his abundant love for us in His son Jesus Christ.

    From Mauritius

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Derek Gohl wrote:

    If you want to be a strong mountain moving devil defeating world overcomming christian better stop listening to all the negative critical faultfinding chritians who don’t have enough power to blow their nose,yet instead of setting the captives free,spend all their spare time peddling fear from their internet soapboxes.Just keep listening to the preachers who build up the body of Christ and avoid the accusers of the bretheren like the plague,or you will become contaminated by their faultfinding spirit,luv in Christ,Derek Gohl

    GE asks Derek Gohl,
    How long did it take you to compose this ode to yourself, which I bet you read every Sabbath before some SDA congregation and recite in every conversation you have with one of your fellow SDAs. I do not see you engaged in asking after the meaning of Scripture anywhere. Let’s hear what you have to say on Scripture, my dear man.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> How long did it take you to compose this ode to yourself

    Sorry I just have to laugh… that was funny.

  • Amitaruci

    Hi Deborah and everyone else,

    I’m currently looking for a church, my background is buddist and one day I found a bible in my post box and have read the whole book and now I’m inn search of a church will you please asssist me ASAP.

    Thanks and God Bless
    A

  • Michael

    Derek Gohl’s indoctrination is the biggest lie that crept into the minds of weak christians and vulnerable people seeking the truth. It is an abomination that has infiltrated the church and has a huge following as it appeals to the flesh and mans’ worldliness and selfishness. It appeals to those who compromise the gospel …those who are quite comfortable listening to Oprah Winfrey or someone similar. They want heaven now on earth…as Benny Hinn said …who needs gold in heaven…I WANT IT now.
    Protesting against SDA’s is entirely another deceiving issue…but the same spirit of Satan’s…to lead away from being truly saved in eternity.
    Satan strategy is to CREATE ISSUES among people…to lead them off the power of the preaching of the cross…the saving gospel.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amitaruci or is that Nerfititi

    Well I would advise that you NEVER go to a Seven Day Adventist church. As you can see, they like to come to websites writing lies saying they are buddhists looking for a church to go too.

    Nerfititi, you should be very ashamed of yourself. Have you ever head of Jesus Christ? Read this article:

  • Burning Lamp

    GE, I don’t know what you mean when you refer to my “bias”, but the reason I addressed the Sabbath issue was because of personal experience with a lady whose faith was shipwrecked and is to this day due to the false understanding of the Sabbath. She will not go to church because she believes she must observe the Sabbath and most churches hold Sunday as the primary day of worship and she cannot drive at night to attend a Saturday evening or any other evening service during the week. We have worked with her, presented truth after truth to her from the Word but she remains entrenched in her error. She would attend a Messianic service but I have never found one that is scriptural. She was not raised SDA, but another Sabbatarian group which is similar except they do not accept the teachings of Ellen G. White.

    As far as reaching someone who is SDA, one does not have to get into the finer points of their beliefs. This has been proven over and over again in our experience on the mission field. The crux of the matter is the Gospel. They are Jesus + – they have a system of works. How one views salvation is key. If that is established, the rest of the house of cards will come tumbling down as they grow in their faith. Unfortunately, Sabbath-keeping is a hard one to uproot as borne out in my experience with the aforementioned lady. She has accepted Christ and does not believe that Sabbath-keeping saves her, but she believes that she is not obeying God if she does not keep the Sabbath. We just pray that God will reveal His truth to her eventually. My point was the damaging effects of Sabbath-keeping. It is legalistic and the letter of the Law kills.

    I have appreciated your comments and your extensive knowledge – I am not versed in the finer points as you are and our ministries are different.

  • Burning Lamp

    Michael, you have hit the nail on the head. The Gospel is the foundation of the faith no matter who is being dealt with whether Roman Catholic, Mormon, SDA, JWs, or a pseudo Christian faith. It all comes back to the Gospel. That is why Deborah is so dogmatic about the error of Calvinism because it guts the true Gospel. She is one of the few watchers in the Church today who will take this stand and takes a lot of heat as a result.

  • Leon

    Deborah I said I would and still will gladly,and in love, answer and explain any one of the 100 misrepresented statements against us.

    To answer Dan Knezacek on Acts.20:7. The Biblical day is from sunset to sunset Gen.1:5;Lev.23:32. It is not where the sun become the centre of the day ,12hr.before midday till 12hr.after midday. Thus in Bible, Sunday starts on Saturday evening with sunset. The King James is correct with “first day of the week”. Phillips modern English is actually wrong with “Saturday evening”. Todays English Version and the Living Bible also says “on Saturday”. Paul kept on talking till midnight because he intended to leave on Sunday,which he would not do on a Sabbath.

    This is the only verse in the Bible that could wrongly be used to justify sunday keeping.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leon

    Tell me do you AGREE with this SDA list below:

    These ARE Ellen G Whites beliefs:

    1. Christ’s death, resurrection, and assention to Heaven:

    – SDA’s believe that Jesus did not die as God but as a mere man, God the Father was absent during Christ’s death, that He did not revive Christ from the dead or called him from the grave, but that an angel instead; God remained absent and Jesus first had to go into the air and had to refuse the worship of the heavenly hosts until He was ‘approved’ by his Father.

    2. A belief in the Godhead of the Holy Trinity.

    – Adventists claim to believe fully in the trinity But Adventists also believe that Christ is Michael the Archangel. They are greatly taken aback when they learn that Christianity cannot accept this belief that in fact it is anathema to Christianity. This destroys the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

    3. A belief in the final authority of the Bible as doctrinal instructor-

    – “The Bible and the Bible only”. Adventists will readily assure the inquiring Christian that their beliefs are based on the Bible alone but the Adventist Church has gone on official record a number of times to demonstrate that Ellen White is the final arbiter, the infallible interpreter of the Bible; and this has commonly been taught from the pulpit to Adventist believers. To my knowledge, not once has Adventism ever taken any position that contradicts Ellen White’s teachings. Adventism must stand or fall on her word.

    4. A belief in Justification through Faith.

    – Here Adventism vehemently proclaims that it believes in justification through faith. This doctrine, however, has caused and continues to cause more confusion in the Adventist Church than any other doctrine the “Justification/sanctification” interpretations from the pen of Ellen White not only contradict the Bible but contradict each other. This leaves the SDA reader who follows Mrs White completely confused on the subject.
    By far the most appalling of Ellen White’s “Justification through Sanctification” heretical statements are these from her most widely-circulated book, The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan:

    “Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above, are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil “. (p 425)

    “In that fearful time the righteousness must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor” (p. 614)

    SDA teaches at best a contradictory doctrine of Justification through Faith, in which perfectionism is stressed over faith.

    ————————-

    Other things:

    Ellen G Whites beliefs:

    5 Hell is not eternal torment (Unscriptural!)
    6 Baptismal regeneration (Unscriptural!)
    7 Investigative Judgment (Unscriptural!)
    8 Salvation by Works (Unscriptural!)
    9 Satan is the joint sin bearer (Unscriptural!)
    10 Soul sleep (Unscriptural!)

  • Dawn

    [EDITED: Praying for DTW is futile. Your god is nothing but a deceiver and the father of lies.]

  • Zelda

    This is not about SDAdventism but about the Sabbath

    BL wrote: ” You err if you believe that the Sabbath was established at creation.”

    I favour the Sabbath because I cannot see a clear mandate to ” keep” Sunday according to the Bible. I think the Sabbath was instituted at the creation as a day of communion with God (before the fall) and has never changed. Why are the first archealogical accounts of a 7day-cycle seen in the ancient Syrian/Summerian history? That goes back long before Moses or Abraham? How did Noah know which were ” clean” and ” unclean” animals ( of which 7pairs of clean beasts were to be taken on ark)..obviously God communicated his will (law?) to the pre- flood generation which was carried over by Noah to the postflood generations. The first manna was collected prior to Mt Horeb….and then they already knew that they had to collect double for the Sabbath? ( How did Moses know what the Sabbath was?) Why does the 10 commandments say ” Remember to keep the Sabbath holy” …..you can only remember or recollect something you already knew?

    I have tried to understand what GE said about the Sabbath but quite honestly he seems to be an intellectual notch above my understanding. I do however feel uncomfortable with his insinuations that the Bible is errantly translated or somehow the devil’s deception:
    ” I say, satan the devilish devil has had his filthy hand in the works also here in these BEAUTIFUL chapters from the Word of GOD, in Hebrews 3 and 4 where we EVERY TIME read the word “rest” throughout.”
    Must I then understand his understanding of the above mentioned translation? Or maybe I just don’t understand him at all!

    I know that ” God is not the author of confusion” and that I alone will be held accountable for what I believe….and I have prayed for guidance and understanding – but for my life I cannot see that Sunday observance is the will of God?

  • Leon

    Deborah ek sal C.E.se probleem oor die enge(25/11) andwoord.

    Soos E.White dit in n visioen gesien het.Voordat Jesus aan die kruis gesterf het was die Vader reg by hom,met Sy heerlikheid in duisternis gehul en die aarde het gebewe.Toe Jesus moes opstaan het die Vader Sy engel gestuur. Die lig vanaf die vader se troon het die engel vooruit gegaan, die aarde het gebewe en die wagte het soos dooies op die grond geval.Die boodskapper het na Jesus geroep en gesê “u Vader roep u”. Dus, wie het vir Jesus geroep? die Vader of die boodskapper?.

    Hierdie probleme wat uitgewys word teen E.White is so ooglopend kwaadsteek dat ek dit nie weer sal andwoord nie. [EDITED by DTW: You wont answer anymore? Leon, these things ARE FROM Ellen G Whites books. They are not fabrications, They are not lies, They are HER WORDS, things SHE believes. If you believe as she does agree that these listed items are GOOD. Or, if you disagree with Ellen G White, say NO, that these things are WRONG. But you sit in a dilemma because you can’t disagree with your Prophetess can you? Well if I was lied too I would tell the SDA church to take a long walk off a short plank and start new seeking the TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.]

  • ina

    For those who think they can justify there actions by using Jesus and the apostles as an escape goat.

    Jesus came to fulfill the 10 commandments not to do away with it. It is in Black on White and clear that we should keep the Sabbath, I am not a SDA but i do believe that we should keep the Sabbath as this is a direct order from God and this is what Jesus Himself had to say about this idea: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). and Jesus, on the other hand, said heaven and earth would disappear before the smallest part of the law would do so (verse 18). He said the law would continue until everything is accomplished. Because the fulfillment of many biblical prophecies of Christ’s second coming is yet to occur (the prophecies have not yet been accomplished), we know the law has not ceased to exist.

    So if you really believe in Jesus and have been saved the commandments will be easy to keep because you will live in unconditional love.

    Jesus never said that we can keep the Sabbath on a day that will suite us. It is the apostles that meat on a Monday not Jesus and remember the apostles were human. Jesus never said to them they the can now keep the Sabbath on the first day of the week.(where is the proof if Jesus did say that) If so then we can change the rest of the commandments to suite us as well. Do not kill but hate who we want, do not steel but take what you need……………..

    Read this of about the 10 commandment
    [URL removed]

  • Burning Lamp

    Dear Zelda,

    You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right? And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter. There is no more Sabbath – Christ Jesus IS our Sabbath – He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and the need for a Savior. We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath. We can and should worship Him every day of the week.

  • Michael

    Zelda…the creating of an ISSUE around the sabbath is a red herring…bunny trail…smokescreen…call it what you like.
    It has absolutely no significance in relation to Christ’s mission to save sinners from the second death.
    Anybody who determines God’s attitude in this petty regard for an irrelevant ISSUE is insulting God’s greatness and integrity.His sacrifice at Calvary in it’s enormity puts all insignificant things to absolute shame.
    I believe anybody who sees God in this way has totally underestimated the magnitude of his divine love for man.Fighting about a day whether Saturday or Sunday is silly…if you have it in your heart to set aside a special day to devote to Him so be it and I can respect this but do not expect this to be a main issue for everybody…the most important thing with God is getting the PRIORITIES right.

  • Leon

    Ek wil die laaste belangrike stelling oor die sabbat maak dan dink ek die belangrike dinge van beide kante is gemaak.

    Die 4de gebod is die enigste gebod waar God homself identifiseer.Dis ook die enigste gebod wat die 3 vereistes van n seel bevat nl.1.TITEL Here jou god. 2.MAGSGEBIED hemel en aarde. 3.GESAG Skepper. Dit is ook die enigste gebod wat amptelik deur God geseen en geheilig is Gen.2:3.

    Die sabbat gebod is die enigste wat sê hou op werk, en waar Jesus sê kom rus na n harde week se werk aan My voete en leer van My. Dit is nou waar ons van werke beskuldig word, as ons by Jesus wil rus vind.DIT IS NIE WERK NIE.

    Deut.6:2,3. sê God dat SY gebooie gepaartgaan met voorspoed. Deut.6:8 sê dit moet n TEKEN op jou HAND (denke)en VOORKOP (dade) wees.

    Ex:16,17 sonder die 4de gebod uit as die EWIGE TEKEN van God. So ook Eseg.20:12,20. In Eseg.8:16 ontstaan n vreeslike gruwel, mense begin om die son te aanbid.In Eseg.9:4 sê God dat die wat nie van Hom afvallig geword het, en wat sug oor die gruwel Sy merk moet ontvang.

    As God se ewige merk, teken en seel Sy geheiligde sabbat is,dan wonder mens nogal of die son ook n rol gaan speel by satan se merk wat ook oor vals aanbidding gaan Rev.13:15,16.

    Matt.24:20,21 sê op die einde voor Jesus kom gaan daar n verwoeste vervolging kom, bid dat julle nie die sabbat sal oortree nie.Rev.12:17 sê die oorlog wat die draak (satan)gaan aanvoer sal gaan oor die gebooie en die wat vashou aan Jesus se voorbeeld en leer.

    Waar was Jesus op die sabbat? Luk.4:16 sê volgens Sy GEWOONTE was Hy op sabbat in die sinagoge (NUWE BEDELING).

    n Naam verteenwoordig ook n karakter Ex.34:5,6, dus volgens Rev.14:1 moet ons Jesus se karakter in ons koppe hê.1 John.2:6

    Om Jesus lief te hê is onlosmakend van Sy gebooie John.14:15,21. (al 10 James.2:10) Dit kan dalk ook help by die hemelpoort Rev.22:14 .

  • Jessie

    [EDITED by DTW: Another SDA trying to convince us that SDA’s are biblical, when they have been proven in this forum to NOT BE BIBLICAL at all – HERETICAL is more the words I would use]

    ———————-

    Hello to all of you.
    The Bible says in Matthew 7: 1-6. Judge not lest ye be judged.Why are you so angry with the SDA people. They are preaching from the Bible. They have been reading the King James Version for years.They do not have their own Bible. There are many translations of the Bible which can be found in any Book store. Are they all wrong? If SDA’s preach anything that is not from the Bible then prove them wrong. They are not a cult, and do not force anyone to either join the church or stop them from leaving. They preach the Gospel because they are obeying the command of Jesus as found in Matthew 28:19-20. E.G.white was one of the founders of the church. Why don’t you attack the founders of other churches, such as Martin Luther, John Huss, John Calvin, John Wesley etc. John Carter is preaching the GOSPEL and he is using the Archeological proof as further evidence that the Bible is the True Word of God.Those of you who accuse him of false teaching, please study the Bible with earnestness and prayer that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth as Jesus has promised.If there are any texts that John Carter has used that is not correct according to whatever version of the Bible that you are using please show us so that we can read it. In all his presentations he has not mentioned EG White. He has given Bible texts as proof of God. EG White is not God, but her writings are very helpful in many ways in our Christian walk, eg, on health, education, family life,etc.Please read her books.The Bible say that gossip is as bad as idol worship. Because of your comments you may turn many away from accepting Jesus and salvation and the truth. The John Carter messages may be the only Gospel message that some people have heard. If they lose salvation their blood will be on your shoulders. Be careful little lips what you speak, for the Father up above is looking down in love.READ 1 JOHN 2.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    ina

    Read Burning Lamps comment. In fact I will paste it here for you to answer your question. What you are doing is biblical wrong. Here is why:

    “You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right? And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter. There is no more Sabbath – Christ Jesus IS our Sabbath – He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and the need for a Savior. We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath. We can and should worship Him every day of the week.”

  • Dawn

    I will still pray. God be with you I will not judge just feel sorry.

    [EDITED by DTW: Praying for DTW is futile. Your god is nothing but a deceiver and the father of lies.]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leon

    I stopped paying attention to your comments long ago, simply because you are not playing ball. ANSWER MY QUESTIONS regarding LIST of things Ellen G White believes? – or I will stop you from commenting here period. Comprende?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Leon

    Please speak english, thank you.

  • Pieter

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    Dear Zelda,
    You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right? And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter. There is no more Sabbath – Christ Jesus IS our Sabbath – He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and the need for a Savior. We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath. We can and should worship Him every day of the week.

    Amen brother!

    God Bless
    P

  • Zelda

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath.

    I understand that all the feastdays pointed to Jesus and were fulfilled in Jesus Christ and so doing away with all the ceremonial laws of the old testament. I have been badgered about being legalistic – which I find very patronizing and arrogant. But no one can give me a Biblical definition of ” the Lords Day” that indicates that it is indeed Sunday?…….and the mandate to worship on that day…….. For now I have to accept the fact that Sunday was introduced with the ” paganization” of the church by Constantine – as Christmas was introduced – and the feast of Ischtar etc. I have studied all the so called verses which claim that the first Christians worshiped on the first day of the week…..I just don’t see the transferral. I attend a home group that gathers on Thursday evenings…and fot now that is my ” church” seeing as the Reformed church also has doubtful doctrines. I would not have an issue if the ” Sundayists” didn’t insist on keeping Sunday ” holy”….afterall it shouldn’t be an issue to them either?

  • Burning Lamp

    Michael, I both agree and disagree with you regarding your response to Zelda regarding the Sabbath. I believe Zelda’s question is a valid one. This is much more than a bunny trail – it is an issue that needs to be addressed as there is much confusion about it that leads to serious error. And yes, it does have have an impact upon the message of salvation because observance of a Sabbath puts people under Law. This should be obvious from reading the comments made here by those who are Sabbath keepers. Law and grace do not mix. Clarifying this is not fighting over a day -It is defending a principle of the foundations of the faith.

    This thread may not have started out discussing this, but it is related to SDA beliefs and extends to other groups that practice Sabbath keeping including Messianics. We can’t sweep it under the rug and call it insignificant.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Zelda wrote:

    This is not about SDAdventism but about the Sabbath

    BL wrote: ” You err if you believe that the Sabbath was established at creation.”

    I favour the Sabbath because I cannot see a clear mandate to ” keep” Sunday according to the Bible. I think the Sabbath was instituted at the creation as a day of communion with God (before the fall) and has never changed. Why are the first archealogical accounts of a 7day-cycle seen in the ancient Syrian/Summerian history? That goes back long before Moses or Abraham? How did Noah know which were ” clean” and ” unclean” animals ( of which 7pairs of clean beasts were to be taken on ark)..obviously God communicated his will (law?) to the pre- flood generation which was carried over by Noah to the postflood generations. The first manna was collected prior to Mt Horeb….and then they already knew that they had to collect double for the Sabbath? ( How did Moses know what the Sabbath was?) Why does the 10 commandments say ” Remember to keep the Sabbath holy” …..you can only remember or recollect something you already knew?

    I have tried to understand what GE said about the Sabbath but quite honestly he seems to be an intellectual notch above my understanding. I do however feel uncomfortable with his insinuations that the Bible is errantly translated or somehow the devil’s deception:
    ” I say, satan the devilish devil has had his filthy hand in the works also here in these BEAUTIFUL chapters from the Word of GOD, in Hebrews 3 and 4 where we EVERY TIME read the word “rest” throughout.”
    Must I then understand his understanding of the above mentioned translation? Or maybe I just don’t understand him at all!

    I know that ” God is not the author of confusion” and that I alone will be held accountable for what I believe….and I have prayed for guidance and understanding – but for my life I cannot see that Sunday observance is the will of God?

    GE answers Zelda, with great joy and thankfulness:

    I REALLY appreciate your attitude, Zelda; it is great and inspiring to converse with someone one just gets that feeling, here is someone without ulterior motives or arrogance.

    Now I, GE, ‘favour the Sabbath’ because I can see a clear mandate to “keep” “the Sabbath of the LORD God Almighty”, right from the word go, in the Name for the Sabbath Day according to the Bible; right here, now used, “the Sabbath of the LORD God Almighty”. JUST the name ….

    I also think the Sabbath was instituted at the creation. But that ‘institution’ was but tentative; it awaited CONFIRMATION THROUGH JESUS CHRIST under the New Covenant the Everlasting Covenant of Grace! HOW? By Jesus Christ HAVING RAISED FROM THE DEAD “IN THE SABBATH / SABBATH’S / IN THE END OF THE SABBATH / IN THE SABBATH’S FULLNESS / IN THE SABBATH’S FULFILMENT / ON THE SABBATH LATE / LATE IN THE SABBATH” ….all ways to translate the original Greek text in Matthew 28:1 the first phrase, “opse de sabbatohn…”. There is MUCH more in this text; but not for now.

    Don’t worry, the Old Testament already spoke of the Sabbath exactly in this way— I’m not inventing! “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth— and ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE RESTED, AND REVIVED.” Exodus 31:18.

    I won’t at this stage like to comment on Zelda’s observation, “as a day of communion with God (before the fall) and has never changed.” It will require much space, time an thinking— far too much for now. This REALLY is BIG things. God willing, opportunity will come to discuss it properly.

    GE has nothing to say on “…Why are the first archealogical accounts of a 7day-cycle seen in the ancient Syrian/Summerian history? That goes back long before Moses or Abraham? How did Noah know which were ” clean” and ” unclean” animals ( of which 7pairs of clean beasts were to be taken on ark)..obviously God communicated his will (law?) to the pre- flood generation which was carried over by Noah to the postflood generations” …simply because knows sweet blow all about any of it.

    On Zelda, saying, “The first manna was collected prior to Mt Horeb….and then they already knew that they had to collect double for the Sabbath? (How did Moses know what the Sabbath was?)…”

    GE:
    Zelda, you say the Israelites “already knew … the Sabbath”, but “How did Moses know what the Sabbath was?” Isn’t that rather contradictory? Yes, the question is, Did Moses know? No! Not even Moses knew …UNTIL THEN! God informed Moses. The whole exodus or passover, was God’s FIRST REVELATION to his People of the Seventh Day Sabbath! It’s clear from the Fourth Commandment itself; and it is still more clear in the NT reference in Hebrews 4:4 to God’s having “spoken THUS CONCERNING THE SEVENTH DAY”. I believe God first time ever spoke about his Sabbath Day IN THE DAY THAT HE BROUGHT SALVATION TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD! O, how the Sundaydarians HATE THE THOUGHT! And you know what is incomprehensibly strange? That the Sabbatharians, won’t have it! However…

    Zelda:
    “Why does the 10 commandments say ” Remember to keep the Sabbath holy” …..you can only remember or recollect something you already knew?”

    GE:
    That’s right— “something you already knew”. What did the Israelites know about the creation? NOTHING! They were ignorant, desolate, SLAVES! Hoe could they know about the creation and God’s doings concerning the Seventh Day at the creation? They could not and in fact knew not one thing they could “remember or recollect”… EXCEPT… Except God’s redemption of them from Egypt. Except God’s merciful dealings with them through the Passover of Yahweh. EXCEPT… “You, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, YET NOW GOD HATH RECONCILED … you … whom the Father hath DELIVERED from the power of darkness, and hath TRANSLATED INTO THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON … IN WHOM we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD … The Father hath made you meet to be PARTAKERS OF THE INHERITANCE of the saints in light.”

    PASSOVER! The Passover OF YAHWEH LORD God Almighty!

    And that was how at first, Israel as well as Moses learned about God’s Sabbath Day. That is how WE, shall learn about God’s Sabbath Day, or shall NEVER learn about it in Truth or Spirit.

    Zelda:
    “I do however feel uncomfortable with his insinuations that the Bible is errantly translated or somehow the devil’s deception:
    ” I say, satan the devilish devil has had his filthy hand in the works also here in these BEAUTIFUL chapters from the Word of GOD, in Hebrews 3 and 4 where we EVERY TIME read the word “rest” throughout.”
    Must I then understand his understanding of the above mentioned translation? Or maybe I just don’t understand him at all!

    GE gives account to Zelda’s demand:
    I think you got a firm grasp on the meaning of what I have to say Zelda! Congratulations, and a warm and hearty thank you for your understanding!

    Translations are VERY VERY DANGEROUS in this day of ours, be assured! …and warned! Much too much to discuss now. But as far as Hebrews 3 to 4 concerns…

    The word “rest” from the Greek word ‘katapausis’ occurs 9 times in the New Testament. ONLY ONCE does it not occur in the Letter to the Hebrews, but in Acts 7:49 where God asks, “WHAT is the PLACE of my REST” – ‘katapausis’? It is the first Christian martyr proclaiming CHRIST to the stiff-necked People of God. And he GIVES ANSWER to God’s own question to Israel, in verse 52, God’s REST “shewed before of the coming of THE JUST ONE of WHOM ye have now been the betrayers and murderers.” HARD WORDS, THE WORDS OF SALVATION AND REST ARE!

    So God’s ‘Rest’ in the only other place in the NEW Testament from the word ‘katapausis’, is Jesus Christ! EXACTLY what the whole Letter to the Hebrews teaches! Fantastic!! “MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES”! God’s Rest is Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is the Rest of God. EVER AND EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS! Also in and at and with and through the creation of God “in the beginning”! So that where God declares that He “rested the Seventh Day”, it was because of JESUS CHRIST in and at and with and through God’s EVERY DEED-OF-ACT on and of that day “The Seventh Day”. See now why Jesus Christ from the beginning was the reason d’être of “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”? See now that humanity could impossibly have known ANYTHING about God’s Sabbath Day UNLESS REDEMPTION REVEALED HIMSELF TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD? When the People saw “The LORD our redemption”, on that day they saw Jesus Christ, and through and in and by Him, they saw the Day of God’s Rest— “The Lord’s Day” ‘Kuriakeh Hehmera’.

    God has never changed. It’s us who were changed.

    But I was talking about the FALSE translations of precisely this Letter to the Hebrew believers. It’s because the word ‘katapausis’ is every time correctly translated: “rest”, BUT ONCE the word ‘katapausis’ is NOT the word in the original, but ANOTHER WORD, that OTHER word is ALSO being ‘translated’, “rest”! But anyone can SEE the word and the concept of “rest” exclusively belongs to the word ‘katapausis’, and that if any OTHER original word were to be translated with the word ‘rest’ it MUST not be allowed. The word ‘katapausis’ for itself has earned the exclusive rights to the word and concept of “rest”. Translating any other word NEXT to it with “rest”, a priori will be FALSE ‘translation’!

    Then ‘translating’ the specific other word in the original by its very NATURE and true meaning NOT the ‘rest’ of God, also, with “rest”, makes of such FALSE ‘translation’ the graver and more abominable fraud.

    What is, that specific other word in the original by its very NATURE and true meaning NOT the ‘rest’ of God? In the Greek it is the word ‘sabbatismos’, in every place of its occurrence anywhere else (in secular literature) with the clear and unambiguous meaning of “A KEEPING (by man) OF THE SABBATH DAY”.

    WHY then, WOULD anyone in his right mind, ‘translate’ the word ‘sabbatismos’ as were it a translation from the word ‘katapausis’, with “rest”? It is unequivocally OBVIOUS and undeniable: To COVER UP that which is demandingly CLEAR and matter of FACT, that …quote: “If JESUS had given them REST (from ‘katepausen’) THEREFORE THEN there does remain valid / obligatory / commanded / lawfully for the People of God KEEPING OF THE SABBATH DAY” from ‘sabbatismos’!!

    AWAY is the very fibre and thrust of the whole content and construct and of every detail!! AWAY is it with the Sabbath Day!!! Accomplished and perfected the hoax of Sunday-worship.

    The biggest fraudsters of all time are the Christian opinion-makers and trend-setters. God is waiting for them ahead.

    So, dear Zelda be assured, ” God is not the author of confusion”; MEN are! And I alone will be held accountable for what I believed, and you for what you believed …after the fraudsters have brainwashed us. God will know and will understand, and will show mercy. But to the gangsters and tyrants over the consciences of the poor uninformed masses? I don’t think.

    Like you, Zelda, I have prayed and every day and moment pray for guidance and understanding – and yes, like you, for my life I cannot see that Sunday observance is the will of God.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    Dear Zelda,

    You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right? And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter. There is no more Sabbath – Christ Jesus IS our Sabbath – He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and the need for a Savior. We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath. We can and should worship Him every day of the week.

    GE answers Burning Lamp:

    Please read my conversation with Zelda just now.

    Jesus is NOT “our Sabbath”; Jesus is “The Rest of God”.

  • Leon

    Deborah waarom hou jy my verduideling van die sabbat 29/11 terug. Dit is net bybelse aanhalings, niks van my gedagtes nie, en ook geen beledegings nie. [EDITED by DTW: I have not, it’s right there. I ask that you speak in English please so others from other counties can understand too]

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    ina

    Read Burning Lamps comment. In fact I will paste it here for you to answer your question. What you are doing is biblical wrong. Here is why:

    “You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right? And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter. There is no more Sabbath – Christ Jesus IS our Sabbath – He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and the need for a Savior. We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath. We can and should worship Him every day of the week.”

    GE trying to understand:

    With all due respect Deborah from DTW, Burning Lamp has a few things here, UNEXPLAINED.

    Therefore kindly allow me to try explain on behalf of myself if I may.

    BL:
    “You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right?”

    GE:
    So quick? I have VOLUMES on my shelves on this single topic which you with a stroke of the pen resolved. Of course, without a single ‘argument’ or Scripture.

    So let’s move on:

    BL:
    “And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter.”

    GE asks:

    Dear Burning Lamp, and you? Do you “understand when Christ was resurrected?” Because, really, “Therein lies your answer” that “clears up the “confusion”.”

    THAT IS IT!!

    But DO, _YOU_, “understand when Christ was resurrected?”

    In all sincerity now, HOW did you find it POSSIBLE?

    First difficulty:
    How many Scriptures – New Testament – tell us “when Christ was resurrected?”

    Next difficulty:
    How many translations or versions do we have of such Scripture / Scriptures?

    Next difficulty:
    WHICH should be our choice of translation or version and WHY?
    And why should the others not count?

    Final difficulty:
    How does EVERYTHING we could up till now have determined reconcile or not reconcile with the Old Testament?

    Not before we have solved every of these difficulties can we with a clean conscience say that we “understand when Christ was resurrected”.

    I agree, and I admit that our answer to the question of “when Christ was resurrected” will determine whether “There is no more Sabbath” or there still is “a keeping of the Sabbath remaining valid for the People of God”.

    We have just above in reply to Zelda already seen that Christ Jesus IS NOT, our Sabbath!

    Because certainly He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and our need for a Savior. Which is one of the main reasons we as Christians meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, the Sabbath Day which Christ through victory over the last enemy, death, became the Lord of.

    And lastly, Yes, we can and should worship Him every day of the week. “But God the Seventh Day from all his works RESTED” through our Lord Jesus Christ and therefore “blessed the Seventh Day in our Lord Jesus Christ and sanctified the Seventh Day for our Lord Jesus Christ in that God the Seventh Day with our Lord Jesus Christ FINISHED … and REVIVED”, AND, “RESTED UP” Ex 31:17 Isaiah 57:15 in “His Name: Innermost Sanctuary” of the Full Fellowship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit— “SABBATH’S”, Matthew 28:1.

  • Burning Lamp

    GE, I was attempting to give Zelda a simple answer, not a dissertation. You are correct in that I should have referred to Pentecost Sunday when the Holy Spirit was given to the Church.

    Now, I invite you to contemplate this commentary on the topic of the Sabbath by a trusted discernment ministry. http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd25.htm

    The Sabbath Rest of Hebrews 4

    Genesis 2: 3: “God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made,” but this written by Moses is not a command for man to observe this day and enter into his rest. Genesis was written by Moses for the Jewish people after the giving of the Law, we can understand why he included this explanation. He was explaining to them the significance of the Law that he had laid down for the nation of Israel. Speaking of the Sabbath; God declared: “It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed” (Exod. 31: 17).

    When the commandments are give later on Mt. Sinai, the Sabbath is included and they are told to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. Why? This was the commandment God gave them after their release from bondage. They had worked in slavery over 400 years with no days off, the Lord was giving them a blessing, a day as a gift in which they could rest. However they had already broken it by not remembering and He was angry at them saying “why don’t you keep my commandments.” Here God gave to Israel a gift, the same day He rested after His work of creating.

    To remember the Sabbath means to distinguish it from the other days of the week. Israel was identified by their observance of rest on the 7th day because they were the only nation (theocracy) under the creator. The Bible states that God made known “the holy Sabbaths” by the “hand of Moses His servant” (Neh.9:14). This means many holy days set aside for rest but it all came through Moses to man. The sabbath did not come through any other prophet but Moses.

    There are many Sabbaths that did not occur on the 7th day so the word Sabbath should not be limited to the narrow meaning of 7th day only as some teach, it means to rest, to cease from work. The true Sabbath was not just a rest one day in seven but involved a complete change of life. All the feast days were instructions for Israel, but they were also types and shadows of something that was to come. All the feast days had relevance to doctrinal instruction, they were types and shadows of something that was to come. The Sabbath day rest was a shadow and a type. In Christ the type is done away. In Israel’s Sabbath they did not have to prepare anything but only rest at home and enjoy God provision. This is a type of Christ in that He did the work for us and we enter into His rest. Instead of the continuing sacrifices of animals, he became “ the lamb of God” offered for the sin of the world only once. Instead of going to a high priest at the temple to represent us, we have the great high priest who entered the Holy place once and for all. In place of literal circumcision, he gave the cutting off of the flesh, a circumcision “that is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter”( Rom.2:28-29). Instead of Sabbath observance each week , he incorporated a day to rest from our works in the rest of God.

    Hebrews is a commentary basically on Leviticus and compares the things of the law with Christ showing he is superior to what God gave through Moses. He is the substance of the shadows that are mentioned.
    Heb.4 Explains of those not entering His rest was because of their unbelief 3:19.

    Heb. 4:3-11 “For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”

    The question that needs to be answered: is God telling us to keep the Sabbath day or something much more. The “Sabbath rest” should not be equated with the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath of the Old Covenant, because the Israelites who did keep it did not enter this “rest.” The writer explains there is “another Day.” Since Joshua and Israel kept the 7th day Sabbath this must mean something other than what Sabbatarians interpret it as. Joshua did not bring them into this day nor did he enter it himself.

    David spoke of another day of rest. Heb.4:7-8… “saying in David, TODAY, after so long a time, as it is said, TODAY if you will hear his Voice, harden not your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of ANOTHER DAY? There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.” Joshua whose Hebrew name is equal to Jesus spoke of the one who came to deliver this rest. This was another day not a specific day like the 7th but a life that is given to all through the Messiah.

    If there is another day then it isn’t Saturday. There is another rest that the author is referring to in the future. The Israelites did not enter God’s rest because of unbelief, not having faith but they did keep the Sabbath. They had the rules and regulations the oracles, but it was not mixed with faith. God has always looked to our heart, our attitude in the Spirit. The word for rest in vs.9 is the same word for Sabbath in the Greek. It is a Sabbath that never ends. In Heb.4.the author writes For the one who enters his rest he himself rests as God himself rested from his works. Today Jesus is our Sabbath. our every type, command, and ordinance in the Old Testament He fulfilled.

    Israel in the Old covenant rested in a day; we rest in the Person and His finished work. It was a picture of the future rest in the new covenant, the cross has the same implication, and God finished his work. Our Sabbath day is rest in our soul, it is by faith. Under faith we can cease from our own works. Works that were required for the Israelites to do in the Old covenant to be accepted by god In this way the believer enters in and ceases from his own labors. God was bringing Israel to the promised land after their labors in Egypt this typifies rest in Messiah. “

    Hebrews 4 tells us to be diligent to enter his Sabbath rest (4:11), we do this 365 days a year. This rest is found only in the Messiah who accomplished all of God’s work in our place. If you do not cease from your labors then you are not obedient to the New Testament Sabbath
    Not the Law, nor Joshua could bring Israel into God’s True Sabbath “rest”, “another day”, not a Seventh day or a First day, Sunday, but the day of Salvation. Heb.4:2 “For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as them” But he states they did not mix it with faith.

    Isaiah 49:8: “Thus says the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard you, and in “A” DAY OF SALVATION have I helped you: and I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, (not a day, but Christ the savior) to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; Paul quotes the Isaiah passage 2 Cor. 6:2. “ For he says, in an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the DAY OF SALVATION have I helped you. behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the DAY OF SALVATION. This day is any day one receives the Lord and enters into the rest He offers in the new covenant. With the law one had to do work to be blessed in the New covenant that operates under grace we receive by faith to be blessed.

    Hebrews 4:9-10: “There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.” One can observe the Saturday Sabbath, but to have the rest they need to know “the Lord of the Sabbath. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His.”

    Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. The old covenant which the Sabbath was the seal of was a conditional one based on works.
    This Scripture is speaking of entering into a future God’s Sabbath Rest. Go back and read verses 4 and 5 again. Don’t forget that the “Rest” which God entered into (Genesis 2) was not a physical rest from his labor. It is an Eternal rest, not once every week. In Genesis 2 on the day God rested there is no “evening” or “morning.” This “rest” neither they nor we can enter into by the law, or the fourth commandment- a day; Moses was kept out of the Promised Land, the law kept him from entering while Joshua entered by faith.

    These men are illustrations of types. The “True Sabbath Rest” is found only, by faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. In the New Testament the true light comes to earth and the shadows (types which were temporary) disappear. Now we no longer look to the shadows, but to the substance which the shadow was cast from, the substance in the person of Christ (Col. 2:16-17). To go back in the shadows out of necessity is to have our light become darkness as if we never received it. We are undoing all that Christ has done. Jesus said in Mt.11:28: “Come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” The Apostles knew the burden of the law. This is why at their Jerusalem Council they refuted the law being added to grace. Stating those who do trouble you with words and subverting your souls. In Acts15:10: “Now therefore, why put God to the test, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear.”

    The Old Testament purpose of Sabbath was one of completion, the number 7 is the number of completion the 8th day is the number of new beginnings.

    The emphasis at Pentecost is the first day, we should not confuse the Sabbath as now being Sunday, it is still Friday night to Saturday night. These are pictures of what God would do in the future as He came to earth. The Sabbath refers to completion, God rested when He was done, the Lords Day has to do with a new beginning, the resurrection to eternal life was something absolutely new. The Sabbath is relating to God’s rest in creation. The 8th day is a memorial of new creation of Israel as well as Gentiles receiving new life in God, Commemorated by the resurrection.

    In Scripture the number seven represents completion; it is the cycle given for us as a completed week. Jesus rose on the first day of the week, (the 8th day) giving us Eternal Life and an eternal Sabbath rest in him. 1 Pet.1:3: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”
    In Heb.4:10: “For he that has “entered into” his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. “This “entering in” is to “remain in”, the rest. It is an Eternal rest of which the seventh day is but a type. The high priest would enter in with sacrifices and come out again. Christ the eternal high priest entered once and finished the work remaining as our eternal high priest.

    V.11 therefore let us be diligent (strive) to enter that rest- we must persevere in faith to the end not become disobedient and turn back as Israel did. This was not a day but a person and relationship. The solution is clear, its Jesus, it’s found in His person and not in the Old Testament commandments he replaced.

    “We are delivered from the law, that … we should serve in newness of the spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter” (Rom. 7: 6). This letter clearly is in reference to the Old Testament law.
    At His death on the cross, the “veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matthew 27:51), indicating that the offering of sacrifices and other temple services have already served their purpose and were finished. Christ did not bring reform to the Mosaic Law and the Sabbath, but instead installed a NEW COVENANT to replace the Old (Heb.8:13). The Old Testament Sabbath was based on a works covenant. The NEW Testament rest (Sabbath) is based on grace.

    Exod. 33:13-16: “Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.” And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. ”For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”
    Grace was shown to Israel by the Holy Spirit who gave them rest. God’s presence, His Spirit brings us into His rest for today. Without Christ fulfilling the law perfectly and raising from the dead we could not be given the Spirit.

    THUS WE SEE WHY GOD COULD NOT GIVE US ANY ONE DAY OF TEH WEEK AS A SABBATH (REST). WE’VE ENTERED INTO AND ARE TO REMAIN IN HIS REST. THIS, ISRAEL COULD NOT DO HAVING ONLY A SHADOW OF THE TRUE SUBSTANCE WHICH CAME LATER, WHICH WE NOW ENJOY. GOD SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT ON SUNDAY (PENTECOST) TO ACCOMPLISH THAT REST WHICH WAS APPREHENDED IN CHRIST. ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS LATER THE CHURCH WAS GIVEN THE COMFORTER, THE SPIRIT, GOD HIMSELF, WHO GIVES US THE PROMISES OF GOD AND THE TRUE REST PROMISED.

  • Leon

    Deborah
    I will answer your 4 questions one by one.Most of the first question has already been answered 29/11. The second part was; “JESUS DID NOT DIE AS GOD BUT AS A MERE MAN”.

    Jesus walked on earth in the body of a mere man. Isa. 52:14 and not in His Godly state. As a baby He had to learn to walk and talk. In His Godly state Rev. 1:13,14,15 describe Him with white hair, eyes like flames of fire, feet like fine brass burning in fire and a voice like many waters.

    One of many other reasons why He came as mere man was to show that man can live a ritches life 1 John 2:6 in His footsteps 1 Pet 2:21 with the guidens of the Holy Spirit John 16:13.

    Jesus said, He did not do anything out of His own, but as the Father instructed Him. John 7:16, 8:28; 12:49. The satan attempt everything to make Jesus use His Godly powers for His own purpose Matt. 4:3,6. even through people, but Jesus ignored them and did not use His Godly powers Matt. 27:40,41. Even when Jesus did great wonders, He did not use His own powers John 11: 41,42.

    Still Jesus is God our rock in the old testament. Ps. 62:2,6,7 and our Rock in the new testament. 1 Cor. 10:4. Our Shepherd in the odl test Ps. 23:1 and our Shepherd in the new test. John 10:11,14. He is our High Priest Heb. 8:42. He is our advocate and propitiation for our sins. 1 John 2:1,2. He is also the way, the truth and the life, as well as our only way (not Mary) to our only Holy Father in heaven. John 14:6.

    This is the teachings of EG White. The next point no 2, The Trinity and Christ is Michael.

  • Zelda

    Zelda answers GE:

    Thankyou. Eureka . I see it. I had to go back and read every one of you comments to get it fully. (To clarify one point – I used Moses and Isrealites interchangably as one concept) Now I’m too scared too move my head in case something pops out again. I have a nagging suspicion though that I was not the only one who did/does not understand you!

    My most favourite verse in the Bible is john 3:14 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up”…..I use it as my motto in life – if I can’t see Jesus Christ centrally in something – then I know it not right (or irrelevant.)

    My dominee gave me Hebrews 4 to read 2 years ago to rationalize Sunday keeping ….. and only now do I understand Hebrews 4 !! and I see The Day of the Lord……which leads to next question: Did you know there is a ” Night of the Lord”?
    Ex 12:42 This is that night of the LORD, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations…..

  • Magda Kopp

    Oh dear so many interpretations. I dont live under a law because when I was born again Jesus set me free. I dont understand why christians argue about the Sabbath if you are truly a child of God then you want to live to please him and not people. There is so much turmoil in the christian church at the moment that we should pray without ceasing because time is precious. Satan is glorified because that is exactly what he wants confusion arguments unforgiveness he has since the day of Adam and Eve never stopped to attack the truth.

    I worship and talk to Jesus day and night there is no specific day to me every day is His day. Love your enemies pray for them and above all live the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I myself love the beautitudes. I love you all and pray that Jesus will bless you and fill your hearts with His amazing love and grace. There is enough deceivement going on and the great apostasy is upon us. Don’t feed the devil resist him and he will flee from you. We need to pray for our brothers and sisters who are following other spirits other gospels and please dont belief all the lies of the emergent preachers. Everything that we need to know for our salvation is in the scriptures and Jesus said if you love me you will obey my teachings. God Bless you all.

    Magda kopp – 1 Desember 2010

  • ina

    BL
    Christ came to fulfill the Law not do away with it. Christ was resurrected on the First day not on the Sabbath even up to this point God kept to the law, if Christ came to change that don’t you think he would have been resurrected on the Sabbath and the Old and new testament should be read together. It is simple and easy to understand. According to you we can go ahead an brake all the law because we as sinners……………and all that. We a free from the law by have Gods law in us and by living in Love ( the fist few laws are all about love) we can keep the law and being free from it at the same time.
    Please give me the scripture in the New Testament where Jesus say that we don’t need to keep the Sabbath and is Christ above God and his laws.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Zelda wrote:

    …………

    For now I have to accept the fact that Sunday was introduced with the ” paganization” of the church by Constantine – as Christmas was introduced – and the feast of Ischtar etc. I have studied all the so called verses which claim that the first Christians worshiped on the first day of the week…..I just don’t see the transferral. ……………

    GE hopes to shed a little light on the subject of the first Christian ‘observance’ of the First Day of the week:

    Sunday was not, “introduced with the ” paganization” of the church by Constantine”; it was introduced MUCH earlier to the growing Christian community, in fact early during the FIRST century AD. Fortunately Paul it seems, stemmed the tide of this initial wave of …

    …paganism with its
    “superstitious worship” (‘paratehreisthe’) of
    the “elemental (‘stoicheia’)—
    weak and beggarly no-gods” (‘meh ousin theois’) of …

    The Gospel reaching out to the ‘old’, pagan Greek ‘world’….
    “preach among the Gentiles” 2:1…
    “without respect of person” 2:6;
    “in this present evil world” 1:4 (4:3);
    “any man” (‘tis’) 1:9;
    “man” (‘anthrohpon’ over against “God”) 1:10;
    “received from no man …is not according to man” 1:11,12;
    “flesh and blood” 1:16c;
    “neither …apostles” 1:17-19;
    “preach Him among the heathen” 1:16b;
    “Arabia …Damascus …Syria …Cilicia …Judea” 1:17,21,22;
    “unknown by face” 1:22.
    “The Gospel PREACHED … to ALL nations” 3:8

    “Fourteen years after” 2:1
    the two ‘worlds’ MEET….
    “again to Jerusalem” 2:1;
    “among the Gentiles” 2:2;
    “with me a Greek” 2:3;
    “those …whatsoever they were” 2:6;
    “the uncircumcision” 2:7;
    “the Gentiles” 2:8;
    “the heathen” 2:9;
    “Antioch” 2:11;

    “Peter (2:7) did eat with the Gentiles” 2:12;
    “why compellest thou the Gentiles?” 2:14;
    “sinners of the Gentiles” 2:15;
    “we Jews by nature” 2:15;
    “even we …we ourselves” 2:16,17;
    “If I (a Jew) build again the things that I destroyed …” 2:18

    The new Gentile Church “returns” to its pagan roots while clutching to the former glory of the Law; the Gospel in the process is being lost sight of completely….
    “O foolish Galatians!” 3:1…
    “Who bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth” 3:1;
    “Received ye the Spirit by the works of the Law or by the hearing of faith?” 3:2 ;
    “Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” 3:3;
    “Ye suffered so many things, in vain?” 3:4;
    “Ministereth (God) the Spirit to you by works or by hearing of faith?” 3:5;
    “The Scriptures foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, before preached the Gospel to Abraham (father of the Jews), meaning, ALL nations shall be blessed in (Abraham) … which be of faith …” 3:7-9.

    Paul explains to the Galatians how the Gospel works…
    by first explaining to them – they being heathen – how the LAW, works…
    3:10 “For as many (from “among ALL men”) as are (justified) of the works of the law, are (“without respect to person”) under the curse (of the law), for it is written, Cursed is EVERY ONE that (a) continueth not in (b) all things which are written in the Book to (c), do them.”
    Unequivocal! NO ambiguousness!

    Paul concludes from how the law works…
    3:11 “That now is EVIDENT: _NO MAN_ (Jew or Gentile) in the sight of God is just (or justified), for (it is written), The just (Gentile or Jew) shall live by FAITH (ONLY)!
    3:12 Why? Because the law is not out of faith, but, (indiscriminately) is for ANY man: Do ALL the Laws and live.” Or, Fail to do ALL the laws, and die! It’s the same for EVERYONE; it has nor mercy for any, because “the law is not of faith”.

    T.b.c., DV.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    ….continuing from above ….

    Paul concludes from how the law works…
    3:11 “That now is EVIDENT: _NO MAN_ (Jew or Gentile) in the sight of God is just (or justified), for (it is written), The just (Gentile or Jew) shall live by FAITH (ONLY)!
    3:12 Why? Because the law is not out of faith, but, (indiscriminately) is for ANY man: Do ALL the Laws and live.” Or, Fail to do ALL the laws, and die! It’s the same for EVERYONE; it has nor mercy for any, because “the law is not of faith”.

    Therefore…
    3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law (“which is death”) HE, being made a curse for us.”
    “HE, being made a curse for us: FOR IT IS WRITTEN …”
    “it is written: Is everyone / anyone, that hangeth on a tree …”
    “on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles”.

    It is IN DEATH and in the CURSE of the Law, that all men are created EQUAL, and that the blessing of Abraham came on the Gentiles indiscriminately! It indeed is in the death and in the curse of the Law upon JESUS CHRIST and which JESUS CHRIST WAS MADE (‘created’) “FOR US” ALL, that all men are created EQUAL, and that the blessing of Abraham came on the Gentiles”: INDEED,
    “came on the Gentiles THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!”

    Ask a Muslim why he does not believe Jesus is Christ and Lord Almighty God. Ask him, and he will tell you, because God cannot be made the equal of all men, even in the curse of law and death. No, that is just TOO MUCH OF A ‘MAN’ TO BE GOD for an Muslim.

    Therefore here already is the reason why the Gentile ‘Christian’ of Paul’s “world” and time, found THEIR reason to return to THEIR, “former no-gods” which in their eyes, were the true ‘gods’ because of their GLORY. They were the glorious god-beings of the “ELEMENTAL, FIRST IN PRINCIPLE” LORDS and GODS OF THE ‘WORLD’ “venerated” and “worshipped” and “carefully watched” for their VERY GLORY. Which was a illustrious and triumphant procession through eternity and TIME and WORLDS and space AS CERTAIN AND AS GLORIOUS AS THE RISING OF THE SUN, EVERY “DAY”, EVERY “MONTH”, EVERY “SEASON”, EVERY “YEAR”! BEHOLD, THE GODS OF THE ‘STOICHEIA’ OF GREEK “WISDOM” AND “PHILOSOPHY”!

    Here one sees the origin of the ‘observance’ of what those Galatian Greeks, called, “The Day of the Lord Sun”. Here, one sees the UTTER humanistic ESSENCE of its content and form, which is PRIDE THROUGH AND THROUGH. IT IS “NOT OF FAITH”, humble, obedient, “FAITH” ONLY.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    some corrections:

    …it has nor mercy for…
    …it has _no_ mercy for…

    …he equal of all men, even in the curse…
    …he equal of all men, _equal_ even in the curse…

    …GOD for an Muslim…
    …GOD for _a_ Muslim…

    …was a illustrious…
    …was _an_ illustrious…

    Apologies and thanks.
    GE

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    I said,

    Here one sees the origin of the ‘observance’ of what those Galatian Greeks, called, “The Day of the Lord Sun”. Here, one sees the UTTER humanistic ESSENCE of its content and form, which is PRIDE THROUGH AND THROUGH. IT IS “NOT OF FAITH”, humble, obedient, “FAITH” ONLY.

    So don’t expect “those who oppose themselves to the acknowledgement of truth” will do so “gently… patient… in meekness” and fairness.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    So don’t expect “those who oppose themselves to the acknowledgement of truth” will do so “gently… patient… in meekness” and fairness.

    Yes, I have not finished yet. We got as far as 3:13 only.

    We are asking, How it came about that Christian replaced the Sabbath with Sunday? I want to show Paul answers our enquiry in his Letter to the Galatians— former heathen, pagan, Gentiles. So far we have seen

    Paul stemmed the tide of the first intrusion of paganism with its
    “superstitious worship” (‘paratehreisthe’) of
    the FOUR “elemental weak and beggarly no-gods” of time:
    “DAYS, MONTHS, SEASONS, YEARS”,
    directly through his Letter to the Churches in Galatia,
    making it clear to them

    in chapter 1, that he
    preached the Gospel,
    to all nations,
    as the equal and identical selfsame ‘man’
    which the Jews were.

    And in the second place,
    in chapter 2, that the
    Jews were PROVEN in real-life confrontations
    the very same, no worse, no better,
    as the heathen ….

    In the third place,
    in chapter 3,
    Paul explains how that the identity of all men is made plain
    BEFORE THE LAW
    IN THE CURSE OF THE LAW
    IN CHRIST JESUS
    IN HIS DEATH—
    that Jesus Christ
    is believed
    GOD in his mercy
    by FAITH
    for having been “the Blessing of the Promises” of God 3:14,15:
    “the Blessing of the Promises” of God “AS OF ONE” 3:16,
    “AS OF ONE”: Jesus Christ,
    Jesus Christ BEFORE the “four hundred and thirty years” 3:17,
    BEFORE in Egypt when there was no nation of Israel yet,
    and all men before God were the same, ‘as one’,
    and even Paul would be reckoned a heathen pagan!

    “For if the Inheritance be of the Law, it is no more of Promise: but God gave it to Abraham by Promise”— and that Promise was Christ. 3:18

    Now see how again for Paul the issue becomes one of the Divinity of Jesus Christ…

    3:19 “What has the Law been for then? It was added because of transgression (by every man as the next) till The Seed should come to Whom the Promise applied, ordained by angels in the hands of a Mediator. 20 Now a mediator not of one (a mediator) BUT GOD IS ONE” …of two UN-EQUALS, God and man. God is God, and the transgressor, is man in the matter of mediation for sin. Now who stands in between? “He was reckoned with the transgressors” and having been Mediator, requires Jesus Christ to be BOTH Man and God in “ONE” : “GOD”— “God”, in the MAN JESUS CHRIST.

    The Galatians would have NONE OF IT!
    So they rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and they
    “RETURNED BACK TO” their
    “FORMER”, “weak and beggarly first principle no gods …” :
    “Ye worship (= ‘observe’) DAYS, MONTHS, SEASONS, YEARS.”
    The vicious cycle has been completed … or NEARLY completed, because, thank God, we see Paul wrote subjunctive. He said “I am AFRAID I (would have) laboured in vain.” He wrote, “IF” you sealed your fate and “had yourselves circumcised … Christ will be of no worth for you; you are cut off from Christ.”

    “JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW you are fallen from grace WHO-SOEVER you are”, Jew or Gentile! 5:4. Your “superstitious veneration of days, months, season years”, has become a matter of rejecting GOD, taunting GOD, and blaspheming GOD. That, is the implications of Sunday-observance in the Body of Christ’s Own his holy Church.

    I shall nevertheless not let go of my fidelity to Jesus’ Church. But so help me God, I won’t pay homage to the beast and the image of the beast that like a dragon with tongues of flames guards its weak and beggarly, abominal idol.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    ina

    I’ve said this 4 times now to others, I will say it again.

    THIS is the Gospel Truth of the matter:

    1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE WAS THE LAW – (Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE, was the Law of the Sabbath.)
    2) Jesus Christ TAUGHT the Sabbath by having KEPT the Sabbath because he was still on earth and Lord of the Sabbath Day on earth.
    3) When Jesus was crucified many miraculous things took place, one of these being that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and it was written in our hearts (all 10 commandments)
    4) Jesus became our Sabbath rest in all born again Christians – we do not need to WORK anymore to keep this commandment because the HOLY SPIRIT now abides in each and every born again believer.

    Hence all truly born again believers keep all 10 commandants.

  • Burning Lamp

    Zelda and Ina, I would ask that you please refer to and carefully read the article I cited – http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd25.htm

    it has the true biblical answers to this question and says it much better than I can. As for GE, I am sorry to say that his contributions have resulted in much confusion and have cleared up nothing. Like Debs has repeatedly said, this is really a simple topic and has boiled it down in an excellent fashion. Please prayerfully heed her words.

    Also, GE has revealed himself to be Calvinist in his beliefs. This unfortunately further taints anything he has to contribute as this is a basic error that strikes at the very heart of the Gospel, a salvation issue. If one does not understand the Gospel, one cannot expound on anything beyond that correctly.

  • Andrew

    Hi

    Just want to thank you guys for revealing the truth
    My heart was getting very Heavy especially about the
    soul sleep theory. The Truth does set you free!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pleasure Andrew! All in a days work.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    GE

    Ok, can you stop now. I have summed up the matter SIMPLY.

    I think I am going to stop comments on this topic – it’s getting out of hand and to be honest I don’t understand what you are writing.

  • Norm Clark

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    Dan, since you opened the can of worms, I feel that it must be at least briefly addressed although not intended to lead into a full-fledged discussion. For another time and another day.

    My experience with Sabbatarianism is that it is a very dangerous doctrine. This applies to any group that rigidly holds to the view whether they be Messianic (which is in my view a plan of the enemy to divide the Church) or any sect that worships on Saturday exclusively.

    You err if you believe that the Sabbath was established at creation. It was established in the Law set up for the children of Israel. Get the key word Law. As believers we are no longer under the Law and Jesus is our Sabbath rest.

    The Messianic movement extends the Law rather than giving freedom from it. It also creates a separate group removed from the general Body of Christ and retains the traditions of Judaism over the fulfillment of the Law by our Savior. It is ironic that although intended to attract Jewish people to Christ what often happens is that it attracts non-Jewish folks who are intrigued with the feasts and traditions and even come to think they have to learn Hebrew to fully understand the Bible.

    A study of the feasts is beneficial only to show their significance of how our Lord was a fulfillment and completion of them.

    I have personally seen the damage that can be done as people become out of balance and hung up on this issue and Sabbatarianism is a big part of it.

  • Norm Clark

    Reallyl now! The Sabbath was not established at creation??! What a heretical, unbiblical bunch of claptrap. Genesis 2:2,3 clearly indicates that the sacredness (or holiness)of the seventh day was established by God at the conclusion of the creation week. Although the word Sabbath is not used explicitly in those verses, the fourth commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) – which you seem to want desperately to rid yourself of – clearly refers back to the creation event and identifies the seventh day which was hallowed there by God as the Sabbath. The language in these scriptures is clear and unambiguous. NOWHERE in scripture is there a suggestion, much less a clear and unambiguous assertion, that the Sabbath was ever “decommissioned” or de-sanctified by God.

    Sure, Sabbatarianism when distorted, taken to extremes, or encumbered by a raft of man-made regulations can become “dangerous”. Isn’t that what Jesus was addressing when He healed people on the Sabbath, condoned His disciples picking grain on the Sabbath, declared that it was “lawful” to do good of the Sabbath, and emphasised that the Sabbath was made for man (not just the Jews!)?

    As for the tired old half-truth that we are no longer “under the law”, it’s nothing more than a heresy based on incomplete understanding of the teachings of Jesus and Paul. Jesus said He didn’t come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He then gives us that perfect fulfillment of the law (by Him) as a totally free gift, thereby justifying us before God. Hence, our observance of the law – always imperfect as it is – has no role whatsoever in accomplishing our salvation. That was done for us by Jesus. Paul reassures us that we are thereby freed from the condemnation of the law (Romans 8:1,2). But Paul then goes on to tell us plainly that when we are in Christ, He “gives life” (ie, enabling power) to our mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in us (vs. 11), and all this in order that the “righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit” (vs 4). Paul is calling us here to the new covenant ideal where Christ write His law on our heart. Observance of the law then becomes a fruit of the Spirit’s work in our life rather than an onerous and unattainable requirement for our salvation.

  • Norm Clark wrote:

    NOWHERE in scripture is there a suggestion, much less a clear and unambiguous assertion, that the Sabbath was ever “decommissioned” or de-sanctified by God.

    So, Jesus Christ never fulfilled the Law and now you have to do it. The Law is a composite unit; if you break one, you have broken them all. Oh, but then again, I must give you the flags up hooray because you are keeping the entire Law 24/7. Excuse me, what’s your name – Jesus Christ?

    You wrote:

    Sure, Sabbatarianism when distorted, taken to extremes, or encumbered by a raft of man-made regulations can become “dangerous”. Isn’t that what Jesus was addressing when He healed people on the Sabbath, condoned His disciples picking grain on the Sabbath, declared that it was “lawful” to do good of the Sabbath, and emphasised that the Sabbath was made for man (not just the Jews!)?

    Wasn’t the picking up of firewood on a Sabbath a good thing?

    And while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered firewood upon the sabbath day. And those that found him gathering firewood brought him unto Moses and Aaron and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp. Then all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

    Although the Bible doesn’t say, this man may have wanted to care for his family in gathering firewood to build a fire so that he could cook a meal for them. Isn’t that a good thing? So, if you really want to keep the Sabbath in the way it was instituted in the Old Testament, you’d better tell your wife to stop switching on the stove and cooking some food for you on the Sabbath. You might just find yourself being stoned to death.

    You are placing yourself under a schoolmaster again and therefore belittling faith.

    But the scripture has concluded all under sin that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to the believers. But before faith came, we [the Jews] were under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Therefore the law was our [the Jews] schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we [the Jews like the non-Jews] might be justified by faith. But when faith is come, we [the Jews] are no longer under the hand of the schoolmaster. (Gal 3:22-25).

    You wrote:

    Observance of the law then becomes a fruit of the Spirit’s work in our life rather than an onerous and unattainable requirement for our salvation.

    No, you are barking up the wrong tree. It is not the observance of the Law that brings forth the fruit of the Holy Spirit in a saint. It is the putting to death every vestige of sin (the old Adam nature) in our bodily members. I am sure you will recall what Paul said?

    Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to those that know the law), that the law has dominion over a man only as long as he lives? For the woman who is subject to a husband is obligated to the law so long as the husband lives; but if the husband dies, she is free from the law of the husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she belongs to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law so that she is no adulteress if she belongs to another man. Likewise ye also, my brethren, are become dead to the law in the body of the Christ that ye should belong to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For while we were in the flesh, the affections of the sins which were by the law worked in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are free from the law of death in which we were held, that we might serve in newness of Spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (Rom 7:1-6)

    You cannot bear the fruit of the Spirit of God whilst you are defiantly placing yourself under the Law. In fact, He will never produce his fruit in you while you refuse to do the only thing that produces fruit. Trying to keep the Law and at the same time say you believe in Jesus Christ is adultery. It is not I who says so; It is God Himself who says so. You cannot have both the Law and Jesus Christ as your husband. That’s pure adultery. Paul continues to say:

    And I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing; for I have the desire, but I am not able to perform that which is good. For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not desire, that I do. And if I do that which I do not desire, I am not working, but sin that dwells in me. So that, desiring to do good, I find this law: evil is natural unto me. For I delight with the law of God with the inward man, but I see another law in my members which rebels against the law of my mind, bringing captive unto the law of sin which is in my members. (Rom 7:18-23)

    You cannot please God by any means other than faith. (Hebrews 11:6). Trying to keep a Law (like the Sabbath) says to God: “I don’t need faith. I can do it myself.” There is NOTHING good in the flesh (man’;s own efforts to please God). It is nothing but putrefying dung.

    Please tell me, am I lost if I do not keep the SDA Sabbath?

  • C. Stein

    Jesus fulfilled the Law but Sabbath was given before the Law. Exodus 16:23 tells us that on the sixth day of week israelites had to collect also the manna for the seventh day. Because the next day was “the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord”. I am not a Sabbatarianist ( I’am not even quite sure what it means) I noticed this myself only some months ago – I mean the fact that Sabbath was before the Law.

  • Doris

    It appears this page was set up to discredit the Sabbath keepers. My guess is by a catholic tare, or any of their Sunday children. Every single person is responsible for their own salvation. God does not change. Sabbath is still Sabbath. It was set at creation and will be present in the new earth as well as heaven above. The 10 commandments existed in heaven before earth. Adam was not a Jew, yet he kept the Sabbath. Please people, get a KJV bible, pray for discernment and find the truth. GOD CHANGES NOT! NEITHER DOES HIS WORD! Hebrews 4:8-9 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
    Read the entire chapter and please realize the importance of this day which was created from the foundation of the world.

  • Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. (Rom 14:4-9)

  • Eliseus

    if Jesus was IN any of your Churches He would not say COME OUT, he would be saying COME IN.

  • Dear Eliseus

    If Jesus was in your church building He would say COME OF OF HER and get born again into the real bride of Christ.

    You see if you stopped being a SDA and followed Jesus Christ the Son of God instead of your Prophetess you would read the bible and it says:

    Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    Who is the Her? It’s Babylon. All false teaching comings from Babylon, the most important one being the Roman Catholic Church which all false churches branch from. Think of the RCC (Babylon) as being an octopus and the legs of an octopus are false churches: SDA, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, word of faith, etc etc etc.]

  • Hennie

    I am amazed to read all these comments, and see people who claim to be Christians, place themselves in God’s position to judge and bad mouth others. Surely it is everyone’s own responsibility to seek the truth and listen to God’s Voice and Word. The false prophets, pastors and ministers will be judged and dealt with by God. To be self appointed judges of people’s relationships with God is probably nothing short of blasphemy.

  • Hennie,

    Paul continually warned his brethren against false teachers. Was he a self-appointed judge and close on blaspheming God? What would you do if your kid started using drugs? Are you going to say: “God will deal with the matter. I am going to fold my holy arms, sit back on my holly little buttocks and feast my holy eyes on how drugs are destroying my kid whom I love so dearly”? Are you crazy?

    The Bible clearly says if you do not warn them, their blood is on your hands. Have you looked at your holy hands lately?

  • Dear Hennie

    The Bible in fact tells us that we as Christians are to judge righteously. Are you a SDA? Aren’t you told by your church to never ever judge aka think for yourself regarding your prophetess’ teachings? I do believe that is so. You are expected to blindly follow everything she says. Now here is a question. When are you going to test her teachings against the word of God?

  • Robbie

    Hennie, I will do the reading for you and you don’t even have to pay me. Just be a man and admit you were in error… Or SDA as Tom asked. (SAME THING)

    The Bible Admonishes Us To Expose Error!!!
    We are to TRY them. “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they be of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (I John 4: 1). All doctrine and teachers are to be tried according to the Word of God. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isa. 8:20). Every message, messenger, and method is to be judged according to the Word of God. The church at Ephesus was commended because they had “tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars ” (Rev. 2:2). The church at Pergamos was rebuked because they tolerated those that held “the doctrine of Balaam, ” and “the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate” (Rev. 2:14,15). It is never right to tolerate false teachers, but they are to be tried by the Word of God, and exposed. Of course those who want to disobey the Word of God will seek by every means to avoid this teaching.

    We are to MARK them and AVOID them. “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them ” (Rom. 16:17). Those whose conduct and teaching contradicts the Word of God are to be marked and to be avoided. This requires discernment and judgment in the light of the Bible. The ecumenicalists, new evangelicals, and compromising fundamentalists will resist any effort to obey this Scripture. They cannot be marked and avoided, unless they are judged according to the Word of God.

    We are to REBUKE them. “Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith ” (Titus 1: 13). This was written to Titus, because there Were those going from house to house and subverting whole houses with false doctrine (v. 10-16). Oral Roberts, Robert Schuller, Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson, and others are subverting whole houses with their false doctrine today. Are we to sit silently by, while they do this, without rebuking and admonishing people to avoid their teaching? No, the faithful servant of the Lord is to be “Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers ” (Titus 1:9).

    We are to have NO FELLOWSHIP with them. “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them ” (Eph. 5:11). Reprove means to censure, condemn, find fault, rebuke, and to refute. How can we obey this Scripture unless we try them by the Word of God?

    We are to WITHDRAW from them. “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which ye received of us ” (II Thess. 3:6). We are to withdraw from those whose doctrine and conduct does not conform to the Word of God. The context clearly shows that obedience to sound doctrine is what Paul has in mind, for he says, “if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet, count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother” (II Thess. 3:14-15). Paul admonished Timothy to “withdraw thyself ” from those who “consent not to wholesome words … and to the doctrine which is according to godliness ” (I Tim. 6:3-5).

    We are to TURN AWAY from them. Concerning the last days, he says that some will have “a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. from such turn away” for such people are “never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (11 Tim. 3:5,7). How can we turn away from them if we do not identify them, and this requires that their message be compared to the Word of God. It is the business of the true preacher to: “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine ” (II Tim. 4:2). This is usually an unpopular and thankless task but it is the duty of the God-called man.

    We are NOT to RECEIVE them into our house. “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds ” (11 John 10, I 1). There is no doubt about who John is speaking about, it is ” Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ… ” (v.9). By radio, TV, music and literature, false prophets are brought into the homes of many Christians today. Brethren, this ought not to be!

    We are to REJECT HERETICS. “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject ” (Titus 3: 10). We should reject those who deny redemption by the blood of Christ. There are many who deny this or some other doctrine of the Word of God. If they will not respond to being admonished, then they are to be rejected.

    We are to look out for those who preach another gospel. Paul warned about those who preached “another Jesus … another spirit … or another gospel” (II Cor. 11:4). How can we know them unless we judge their Jesus, their spirit, and their gospel by the Word of God? Paul called such preachers “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ” (11 Cor. II: 13). He explains in v. 14-15 that these preachers are the ministers of Satan. The God-called man must be just as faithful today in exposing the ministers of Satan.

    Paul warned the Galatians about those who “pervert the gospel of Christ.” He also said, “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (See Gal. 1:6-9). Multitudes today are preaching a perverted gospel. Those who teach salvation by baptism, or by works, are teaching a perverted gospel. Those who preach a salvation that you can lose, are preaching a perverted gospel. The charismatics, Catholics, many evangelicals, and many fundamentalists (?) are preaching a perverted gospel. Yet, we are supposed to cooperate with them in evangelism and Christian work, according to many today. If we fail to expose these false prophets, then we have betrayed Christ and His gospel.

    We are to SEPARATE from them. “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch no the unclean thing; and I will receive you ” (II Cor. 6:17). This makes it plain. God’s people are to come out of apostasy and religious error. How can any Bible believer remain in the National Council or World Council of Churches? How can they remain among compromising evangelicals and wishy-washy fundamentalists?

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      8. Any content that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment; or
      9. Any content directly or indirectly soliciting responses from minors (defined as anyone under 18 years of age).
  7. FAIR USE NOTICE:
    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.

DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

  • YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT USE OF THE SITE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. NEITHER DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES, NOR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, OR LICENSORS WARRANT THAT THE SITE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE OR ERROR FREE.
  • THE SITE IS PROVIDED ON AN “AS IS” BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF TITLE OR IMLPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
  • THIS DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY APPLIES TO ANY DAMAGES OR INJURY CAUSED BY ANY FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE, ERROR, OMISSION, INTERRUPTION, DELETION, DEFECT, DELAY, COMMUNICATION LINE FAILURE, THEFT OR DESTRUCTION OR UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO, ALTERATION OF OR USE, WHETHER FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, TORTIOUS BEHAVIOR, NEGLIGENCE OR UNDER ANY OTHER CAUSE OF ACTION. YOU SPECIFICALLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DISCERNING THE WORLD SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR THE DEFAMATORY, OFFENSIVE OR ILLEGAL CONDUCT OF USERS OF THE SITE OR THIRD PARTIES, AND THAT THE RISK OF INJURY FROM THE FOREGOING RESTS ENTIRELY WITH THE YOU THE COMMENTER.
  • IN NO EVENT WILL DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES OR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS OR LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR ANY OTHER MATTER ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE SITE OR THESE TERMS.

16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!