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New Calvinism – Catching a Gullible Generation

New Calvinism - Catching a Gullible Generation

new calvinismA new term has been coined for the youth, it’s called New Calvinism or Neo-Reformed.  It’s actually Old Calvinism repackaged for a more vibrant gullible generation.

Why is Calvinism spreading like wild fire in the times we living in?  Because they preach what appears to be a truthful gospel!  People are sick and tired of having to listen to the Benny Hinn’s of the world, with all it’s false teachings and lavish excesses.  So up popped the Calvinist preachers to save the day.

But the preachers of New Calvinism fail to tell their followers the whole truth and nothing but the truth regarding T.U.L.I.P.  They don’t tell you that Total Depravity and Unconditional Election are actually Gnostic teachings and they don’t tell you that the Calvinistic version of Salvation is completely unbiblical because according to them Jesus died for the Chosen only and not the entire world as the Bible states in 1 John 2:2.   When you read anything written by a Calvinist, try read it from the Calvinist’s ‘Elect perspective’, only then will realise just how terrible their doctrine is.  Old Calvinism and New Calvinism are both vile doctrines.

According to Marc Driscoll, New Calvinism is the following:

  1. Old Calvinism was fundamental or liberal and separated from or syncretized with culture. New Calvinism is missional and seeks to create and redeem culture.
  2. Old Calvinism fled from the cities. New Calvinism is flooding into cities.
  3. Old Calvinism was cessationistic and fearful of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. New Calvinism is continuationist and joyful in the presence and power of the Holy Spirit.
  4. Old Calvinism was fearful and suspicious of other Christians and burned bridges. New Calvinism loves all Christians and builds bridges between them.

So what we have here is Emergent Calvinism – Calvinism going home to Rome.

—————

Albert Mohler, John Piper, Mark Driscoll and Louie Giglio have been instrumental in helping to coin the term New Calvinist to reel in the youth.  Albert Mohler you say? Albert Mohler served as chairman for the Billy Graham Crusades.  Albert Mohler signed the ecumenical Manhattan Declaration. Albert Mohler holds leading positions in two UN, NGO’s.   Albert Mohler is invited to speak at John MacArthur’s Grace to You church once a year.

—————————

Please note the leaders of this, one of them being Al Mohler a leader in the Southern Baptist denomination, others are John Piper and Mark Driscoll. It is disturbing that there is an escalation in this heresy, but just another sign we are in the last days. New Calvinism?  What a joke!

Reformed Preachers Ponder the New Calvinism

Three Reformed preachers recently sat down together to talk about theNew Calvinism that has been sweeping the younger generation of Christians.

It’s a movement that has young believers going back to the roots namely, to Scripture and the sovereignty of God.

“You’ve got a generation of Christians who’ve grown up in an overwhelmingly secular culture and they’re not part of a churched culture,” said Dr. Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in an informal discussion hosted by The Gospel Coalition.

“They’re realizing that something has to explain how they came to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. They have an absolute determination, you might say, to make clear that their first principle is the sovereignty of God, not the sovereignty of the self.”

The Rev. Kevin DeYoung, senior pastor of University Reformed Church in East Lansing, Mich., believes part of the appeal of the New Calvinism is that it’s “got some muscle to it” and is “robust doctrinally.”

There’s a renewed sense that “God’s sovereignty is biblical and massively important, that God loves us before we loved Him, that He’s the one who does the deciding work in our salvation,” the young pastor said.

In recent years, pastors have pondered the upsurge of interest in Reformed theology – which includes holding to the authority of Scripture, the sovereignty of God, and the sovereignty of grace – with some proposing that it is coming out of a restlessness and dissatisfaction with contemporary evangelicalism.

“Weary of churches that seek to entertain rather than teach, longing after the true meat of the Word, these young people are pursuing doctrine and are fast becoming new Calvinists,” states a post on the popular Christian blog Internet Monk.

Mohler has been identified as one of the evangelical theologians contributing to the resurgence. Others include Baptist theologian John Piper, C.J. Mahaney of Sovereign Grace churches, and Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church.

“What’s new is you have new people in a new time who are rediscovering the same kind of theological instincts and impulses that led to the Reformation and finding them in the same sources – Scripture,” Mohler explained.

And the desire for meaty answers to such questions as “how has God’s grace come to me” emerges “from young people trying to swim against the tide of secularism,” said the well-known evangelical.

Reformed theologian Ligon Duncan explained the phenomenon this way: “I think as the older confessional traditions jettison their fidelity to some of the great truths that all Protestants have valued because we found them in the Scriptures and see them at the very core of what Christian life and ministry is about, you’ve got a new generation of folks who are rummaging through our trashcans and saying ‘this is great, why didn’t somebody ever tell me about this?’”

As young people rediscover biblical truths, DeYoung believes it could “really reinvigorate evangelicalism.”

Meanwhile, for Mohler, the label – whether it’s the New Calvinism – doesn’t matter.

It all comes down to the Scriptures and being “committed to the Gospel, wanting to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, and wanting to see Gospel-built and committed churches,” Mohler indicated.

“If you’re going to dive deeply into the Scriptures, if you’re going to have to explain why the Scriptures have this authority … [and] how this gets worked out in life, frankly, I don’t care what you label it, you’re going to end up in a good place.”

Overall, the three theologians are excited.

“I think it is a wonderful and undiluted good thing that this younger generation is deeply biblical, deeply passionate, deeply convictional, increasingly confessional and ready to do something great for the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,” Mohler said.

Audrey Barrick | Christian Post Reporter

Source: http://www.christianpost.com/article/20101020/reformed-preachers-ponder-the-new-calvinism

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95 comments to New Calvinism – Catching a Gullible Generation

  • Adam Tousley

    It seems like an obvious response to the Benny Hinn theology of yester-month. The Calvinists are prim and proper and wear suits and ties. The “neos” wear t-shirts and have tatoos…go figure.

    It seems to me that “salvation” is an ambiguous term. If we’re talking about making it to heaven, then aren’t we talking about “justification”? Can I pay the price for that? Hardly, Jesus did that for me! And isn’t “perserverence of the saints” really about “sanctification”? For by one offering He has perfected forever them that are (being made) holy…

    One question I have about Reformed Theology is…reformed from what? Why the doctrines of the Catholic Church, of course! The problem is that we’re not even on a level playing field. Reformers have thrown the bath water out and kept the baby….Throw the baby out, too! The “early Church fathers” (as often quoted) had some issues to be sure. I think the seven letters written by Christ make that pretty clear. It seems dangerous to build on what is obviously a corrupt foundation.

    The interesting thing about Calvinism and Arminianism is that it appears that they are right in what they assert, but wrong in what they deny. Are these the only two options we have?

    One of the things that concerns me about Reformed Theology and it’s Calvinist roots is that it throws Israel out on her ear. How can one read the prophets and see the Church? Not that we can’t make application or whatever, but to accept the blessings and deny the curses is absurd and points to an unfaithful God. Does Israel have a manifest destiny? Not every single Jew, but nationally?

    In regard to MacArthur, he apparently does hold a Calvinist view, but certainly doesn’t hold a Replacement Theology view: .

    Again, are there only two views to choose from? “I can lose my salvation or as one elect, I have to wait to see how well I do?”

    Thanks DDW for another provocative post!

  • jmiklovic

    How many times did you appeal to scripture in this article?

    Resurgence in Calvinism has sprung up as a response to Benny Hinn, prove it.

    Young people, are flocking to Calvinism because they are gullible? not sure but that seems like classic ad hominem.

    The charge that Unconditional Election and Predestination are gnostic doctrines is absurd, and the loose connections made in the linked argument are entirely based on Augustine once being influenced by Gnostics, at one point in his life. Not a very robust argument.

    I don’t desire to make people into Calvinists, and I am thrilled to share the Gospel with the world either hand in hand with a Calvinist or an Arminian. I don’t believe the differences to be essential, but they are certainly not trivial either.

    New Calvinism may be a joke… but has this article done anything to expose how laughable it is? Or is it a mere rallying cry for people who you know already agree with you?

    Best Regards,
    jmiklovic

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Adam

    Thanks for your comment.

    Re John MacArthur, he is a TULIPoid through and through. (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/MacArthur_5pts.html) So, even through he might not hold to a replacement theology view (so he says, which I find impossible if you are a Calvinist), his view on Salvation is a mess and this is what he teaches to others.

    In fact if you read the comments here between me and by a guy called James (who I think is someone I know LOL) http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/10/13/unconditional-election-and-total-depravity-are-gnostic-teachings/ you will see the replacement thing come through loud and clear.

    You see, you can’t believe a false doctrine and then think that you can remove bits and pieces here and there to try and keep your audience happy. No can do. It’s either all, or nothing.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    jmuklovic

    >>> Resurgence in Calvinism has sprung up as a response to Benny Hinn, prove it.

    Where did I say this??

    I tell you what? Put on your reading glasses and read the article again.

    Calvinism is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The BIBLE is the Gospel of JESUS CHRIST.

  • Koos

    I have recently discovered this web site and it is certainly an overload of information. I am therefore trying to work through the topics that is of special interest to me. What I have gathered so far is that a lot of criticism is leveled against different denominations and doctrines, which I incidently agree with as I see myself also as a fundamentalist.
    I do, however, have the need to, from time to time, interact with fellow believers.
    The question is now, which Church in South Africa, if any, teaches the TRUE Gospel?
    I grew up in the Dutch Reformed Church, then moved to a Charismatic group and am now attending services at a Apostolic Faith Mission Congregation. In every church I have so far attended, I find that preachers tend to (sometimes) interpret the Word according to their own beliefs, rather than to stick to the Biblical truth.
    I know the principles that the church I am looking for must adhere to, but I am afraid that I will search until I die and not find the perfect church. On the other hand, one must realise that a church consists of people who are, due to their nature, not perfect and as such contaminates the churh.
    Your views will be appreciated.

    Koos

    PS. English is my second language so please excuse the imperfections in that regard.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Koos

    You are not alone, but you are not going to find one. Not in this day and age. There is no such thing as a perfect church on earth as we live in a sinful world. I can tell you know, you might find a great little church, but give it time (5 mintues lol) and it will have succumb to false teaching. Jesus says where 2 or more gather in his name there He will be. I have ‘church’ with my husband. I am content with this. You can keep looking, but be prepared to hit a wall each time.

    Many born again Christians are going to the internet to find fellowship or better yet just to study the Word – cut out the middleman so so say, cos the middleman (pastors, preaches, people in general) are trouble makers. Satan wont give you 1 seconds peace nor allow you to have your ‘perfect’ church.

    Just recently, I had (past tense) 3 friends who decided they were going to start their own church. I was then told that in order to belong to their church I was not so say anything bad about Calvinism. *laughs* I left their church very quickly. They were just short of burning me at the stake and everything I did was a sin, just short of breathing.

    You see the true Church of Jesus can’t be seen, it’s made up of born again believers from all over. You might be sitting in a room with 4 other people who you think are saved, but their hearts are following something else. They might appear ok, until the time comes to follow correct biblical doctrines… then all hell breaks loose.

    Welcome to the site Koos!

  • Ken

    Adam wrote: “Again, are there only two views to choose from? ‘I can lose my salvation or as one elect, I have to wait to see how well I do?’ ”

    You most certainly don’t have to choose between those two views. I rejected both of them, years ago.

    Since Jesus said, believe in Him for salvation, and be saved, John 6:47. So I am saved, and that is that. :) Jesus died on the cross for all of my sins, and then Jesus rose from the dead, and I believe it, and I am going to heaven.

    I don’t have to “prove” it by works (calvinism), and I don’t have to do works to “keep” it (arminianism).

    (To stave off the “works teachers”, I have works in my life, usually more than the “works teachers” have, but I’ll never point to any of those works as being part or “proof” of my salvation, since JESUS fully accomplished my salvation for me!)

  • “It’s actually Old Calvinism repackaged for a more vibrant gullible generation.”

    No, it’s not; it’s worse than anything Calvinism teaches. This is a postmodern form of Calvinism where they believe they can hold to Reformation theology, but with the practice of Counter Reformation spirituality i.e. contemplative spirituality, which negates sola Scriptura.

    As with postmoderns they embrace paradox and irrational beliefs. These guys are crippling an entire generation, but Calvinism isn’t the problem.

  • Moemsie

    Hallou Koos! Ja! Ek het ook NG groot geword (my ma het later gese : dis En Gee En Gee nog meer!) Want stiptelik is die offerhande kom haal maar nie veel meer as dit! Ek glo daar is nog hier en daar opregte NG predikante-maar o wee soveel het die `paradigma skuif` geneem en bevraagteken die waarhede in die Bybel.(ons is dan nou in die Vrederyk! volgens die NG lering? Openbaring mag nie gelees word of bespreek word behalwe as dit gesien word as allegories. En dat die kategisme stel dan duidelik dat die kerk Israel vervang het!?Dis sommer verwaand! Ek stem saam met Deborah ons het hier in ons dorpie ook van gemeente na gemeente gegaan-en die Woord word so waterig of kan ek se melkerig opgedis. Ek kuier ook maar op die internet en soek gelowiges met dieselfde fondasie.

  • Vern

    Hi Deborah

    I have been a visitor to this site for a long time and find it to be a good discernment resource. One thing that has consistently bothered me though is your position on not attending church.

    Let me hasten to add that I completely understand why you adopt the position of not going to church, as I too have been shocked by how many churches have succumbed to the new spirituality.

    I do feel however that the fellowship of believers is Biblical and that we should strive for it accordingly. James 10 25 says:

    “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

    Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”

    By all means warn visitors to this web-site about the evil day in which we live, and that most churches have been compromised. Warn people to be discerning about joining a church, and to be continuously discerning whilst in membership.

    It bothers me however to hear a blanket statement saying that there are absolutely no good churches left. Surely only God would know that? ;)

    Anyway I do sympathise as I understand that you have been burnt in the past. I have too. My request is that we tread carefully and discerningly in this area as the Bible exhorts us to fellowship, and my sense from the scriptures is that it is fellowship with more than just ourselves and one or two others, so that we may encourage and bear each other up, especially in these times of apostasy.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Ken.

    You are right. It’s worse. As I said below, it’s Emergent Calvinism.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Vern

    Has it occurred to you that maybe [DTW EDITED OUT LATER] Has it occurred to you that the many I have attended have turned out as false as can be so I have stopped trying. I have the filling of the Holy Spirit in my life on a daily basis, just through prayer and bible study. I don’t need to attend a church just as a show of hands to sit there all smiley and hug people who I know are actually false and there to cause division.

    Anyhow, if bothers you so much, please by all means attend on my behalf. When you find a fellowship of genuine born again Christians, in my area, please let us know.

  • Vern

    Deborah

    My intention was not to hurt or offend you, but merely to raise a point of Biblical concern.

    I hope you will realise that that was the spirit in which my comment was made.

    I had no way of knowing [DTW: EDITED OUT] which prevents you from attending church, and if this is the case then that seems reasonable and fair to me.

    The point I was responding to was that you seemed to be discouraging others from seeking to attend church on the grounds that they are all rotten or are soon to become rotten. I agree with you that most are, but I believe that there are still a few where one can fellowship, and it seems to me that this is a biblical exhortation in the Bible.

    I visited about 20 churches before joining the one I am currently at. It is ramshackle and poor, but the teaching thus far appears to be sound. You can be sure that I am watching what is preached like a hawk.

    I would like to think that those of us trying to discern the times can be honest with each other on these sorts of issues. Otherwise a website like this can run the risk of merely becoming a place where we gather to congratulate each other on how we agree on everything, and how our perspective is always entirely correct.

    The Bible warns us that the heart is deceptive above all things. As such I believe God uses, His Spirit, His Word, and fellow Christians to exhort us and warn us on our life path. (the New Testament epistles being good examples of the latter.)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Vern

    I understand your concern. But understand mine and that is that I am NOT against going to church, I just state the obvious. And yes it’s for good reason mostly that I don’t attend a church. No harm done. I do understand where you are coming.

  • Valerie

    Concerning church membership, we have been attending a church for two years now, but have no intentions of “joining” because I am already a member of THE CHURCH. Church membership is just a way to manipulate the sheeple. I understand why churches do this, but that does not make it right. Churches are to be a place of fellowship and a place to submit to a pastor’s spiritual authority in relationship. This is not what happens in most churches because they are just too big for that. Imagine being in a family so big that you never can spend time with your mother or father or even talk to them in private at all. The organized church is nothing more than a business these days. I am looking for a church family, not a corporation and I can’t seem to find it. I will keep looking though.

  • Zelda

    Rev 17:5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    The mother whore gave birth in the Reformation to the reformed and evangelical churches out of which rose the faith movements and greed movements and emergents ……….unfortunately where churches are institutionalized there is apotatacy. And I believe all churches are apostate. I struggled with this question for a long time and shed many tears…..and this is my answer with which I feel comfortable….

    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

    If you feel uncomfortable in physical church it is because you have responded spiritually to the call to leave Babylon. Every church is apostate, but I believe in every denomination are a few true believers who have a true relationship with God and are filled with Holy Spirit. (We cannot see the heart but normally it’s quite clear to identify these people) Where must we go- physically – I dunno. ” Not forsaking the assembly of ouselves together”…..I understand is for exhortation. How big is an assembly? I think you can be exhorted by 2 or 3 true believers. I had an extra dilemma that I decided to revert to keeping the Sabbath……why? I had a remarkable paradigm shift from evolutionism 4 years ago which led me on a search for the truth, and I believe the sabbath was instituted at the creation as a monument to the creation……..and secondly….because the Harlot and her daughters worship on a Sunday.

    Do I still have a Sunday church? Yes….good ol’ Reformed church…… they practice infant baptism and use alcoholic wine for communion and believe in Calvinism. I whince or simply have a “familiy sunday- at home” on these days. I decided to stay as my kids need stability in christian peers ( which are few and far inbetween in Holland!!!) and the doctrinal problems of my church are well documented and I don’t get jumped with surprises. But yes, spiritually I have left my worldy church. And often I feel very alone in what I believe, thus even sites like this are an ” exhortation” to me as I know there are other people who think/feel a I do. I really think we must not feel dismayed if we don’t feel at home in a church. John said that we should be from the world and not of the world. The Sabbath I devote to God. usually studying the whole day. Sunday I do the smiley and huggy thing…plainly because I have grown to love the people in my church. And my exhortation I get from a few selected people. And I pray that the Lord Jesus will come quickly to fetch us!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Zelda

    It’s funny, you state Rev 18:4 yet you attend a Reformed church which may as well be a Catholic church. *confused*

  • Zelda

    Goodness gracious no! I should have stressed that I attend a very small, splintergroup which is “a” reformed church. No transubstantiation, no works, no indulgences, no crucifixes with Christ….in fact no crucifixes of whatever sort. Jesus Christ is the, and only mediator, no Marian worship, no idolatry. They do however practice infant baptism, but I try to avoid those services. Calvinism is the official doctrine but according to me the average churchgoer is so Bible-illiterate that they don’t even understand why they are labelled as calvinist! They do resist eucumenical movements very adamantly too (-which quite frankly surprises me seeing how easy people compromise these days)

    I’ve tried the local Baptist church, but I find their worship so loud and secular and irreverent, it feels like an entertainment show of sorts, although their doctrine is more sound.

    I stated Rev 18:4 as applicable to the
    Mother harlot and her daughters (from REv17:5) I think all churches are apostate……only individual churches ..depending on their leader, may be closer to a “true” church. As I’ve said, I shed many tears and prayed alot. ,I have peace now but when the answer comes I am sure I will know

  • Burning Lamp

    Oh my Zelda, I fear you are making a HUGE mistake exposing your children to false doctrine. Surely you can find another body of believers that preaches believer’s baptism and does not blaspheme the Lord’s table by using fermented wine which is by the way a stumbling block to many who have come out of alcoholism.

    I have a peculiar belief about alcohol – many use Jesus making wine at Cana as an excuse to imbibe. Wine in the Bible can mean both fermented and unfermented grape juice. It was the custom in Bible times to boil down the grape juice to keep it from fermenting and then reconstitute it with water. That I believe was Paul’s recommendation to Timothy, not to tip the bottle for medicinal purposes.

    Fermented wine is a product of decay which is a product of the Fall. Our Lord would never have created wine that was spoiled or decayed. And it is certainly not appropriate to use fermented wine to remember His precious shed blood.

    Zelda, I hope you will consider this admonition spoken in love from one believer to another. You are being deceived if you think God wants you to remain in a place that does not preach the Gospel. If they preached the true Gospel they would not practice infant baptism. Also, if the church is reformed, they are not teaching the true Gospel. You should run, not walk away and ask God to redirect you.

    And Debs, no one can judge you for running out of churches to attend. Your desire is for fellowship and if there was a place where the Word was faithfully taught, I am sure you would be there with bells on. Those who criticize you don’t realize how lonely it is and certainly not isolation that is desired.

    Many who discern the times find themselves with no place to go and are unwelcome when they try to shine the light of truth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Zelda

    I see what your are saying, but hear me out now. Surely what they preach is not Christ centered because of the fact they are Calvinist?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Welcome back BL :)

  • Zelda

    Your belief about wine is not peculiar – I’ ve read a few good books on subject. It is blasphemy to compare the precious blood of Jesus Christ with a fermented substance . In the Bible fermentation signifies sin, as leven is also used to signify sin. But people will do anything to rationalize the use of wine. I beleieve that anything that impairs your ” contact” with the Holy Spirit, even if it means being only slightly tipsy from a glass of wine, is wrong and dangerous. Besides the fact that a journey starts with a step at a time and that is true for alcholism too.

    (Maybe) I was also rationalizing the church I attend. I can give a few more ” reasons”, but that will only be delaying the decision. But I hear what you are saying. Actually the calvinism is so watered down – they never actually ” preach” it – but they still believe it. Actually I gave up my search for a new church a year ago as my husband was not yet quite where I was on the journey and it was creating tension in my marriage -so I was gently nuturing and waiting, but he has radically changed and has even given up his ” beertje” (diminutive for beer) and now supports total abstention from alcohol.

    Thankyou for guidance. I will take it to heart, and carry on with my journey. Actually I never comment on blogs as a rule….but maybe I will report back when I am settled again!

  • Free Grace Believer

    calvinists get so much stick from so called christians who think they know Calvinist doctrine is wrong for a fact but without much biblical basis to back themselves up ! calvin and the protestant reformers are responsible and this is a fact that we have any reformed bible based churches, if it werent for the calvinistic protestant reformers and their so called heretical doctrine we would still all be roman catholics under the pope and in complete and total darkness. calvinist quite rightly put God in charge on the throne and man in the dusk but free will believers put Man in charge of salvation and God in the dust relying on man to by an act of his will and choice choose God and by an act of his work basicaly save himself ! the biggest problem folk have or dont understand is what actually happened at calvary? did Jesus die for the church whom God elected and chose from before the foundation of the world? and and at a time chosen by God those elect were born and brought to salvation by the gospel through the working of the holy spirit, therefor Jesus knew in advance who would accept him and who wouldnt so only died for his sheep whom the Father gave to him and he lost none. his sheep knew his voice and they followed, either that or Jesus died on the cross for nobody, he only died to make salvation possible in the hope that thru time man if he choose to accept the gospel would be saved? he died for nobody in perticular and gererally for the whole world with no special purpose for the church? calvinists put all the saving grace on the Lord and none on man as he was dead in trespasses and sin and would and could never by an act of his free will accept the gospel without the work of the spirit, you hath he quickened who were dead ! God is sovereign man is responsible, i believe Jesus died for his elect church and them only. if he died and took away the sins of the whole world without exception then all without exception would be in heaven and even the free will armminians dont believe that so even they limit the atonement ! i dont call my self a calvinist as i follow Jesus christ not john calvin but i do belive his TULIP formula is indead the true doctrine of salvation. i am saved though the sovereign election and calling of God and christs atoning work on the cross and i done nothing to earn salvation and owe all to christ, the arminnian says it was half God and half his choice when he decided to accept christ by an act of his free will and that he will be in heaven because he was sensible enuf to accept christ so in turn the sinner in hell must be there because he didnt use his free will to accept christ??? all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. the free will doctrine is the heretical doctrine and free will easy believeism leads to preachers like benny hinn who preach all u haver to do is sign a card to be saved, no wonder they are leaving the false teachers having itching ears, read your bible and leave calvin alone !!!!!

  • DG

    John MacArthur is not part of New Calvinism whatsoever. The Father of this Neo-reformed movement is John Piper and the Acts 29 Network men which are also headed up by Mark Driscoll. If the roots of this group are traced one will find Leadership Network.

    John MacArthur is a 5 pt “calvinist” or he probably would prefer to say he stands on the doctrines of grace. Lordship Salvation has been misconstrued by people. It is NOT a “works salvation” whatsoever.

    Jesus become your Savior and is He not your Lord once one comes to repentant faith? Yes! Do we “grow in Christlikeness” and strive for this as believers? Do we want to be more like Jesus through the reading of His Word and fellowship along with prayer? YES.. This is Lordship salvation.. a term that has been used to promote something other than what it is.
    Simply:
    Repent and believe the gospel.. something that occurs as a result of the HOly Spirit’s Conviction upon THOSE who are His own and yes, predestined before time.. God’s omniscience of His own..

    The upon repentance and believe the desire to Grow in Him.. and yes, the believe stumbles and sins and it is an ONGOING confession to the Lord (Lordship) as one grows In Him.. No works.. this has to do with sanctification.. until that day we stand before the Savior in our glorified Bodies!

    Please do not confuse MacArthur with these other men. There are many who stand on the doctrines of grace who are very concerned and even upset over this new group or “postmodern” (neo/new) reformed group. They:
    1. Promote the false teaching of spiritual disciplines (MacArthur is against as this is rooted in eastern mysticism with promotion of Foster/Willard/Merton etc)
    2. Contextualize scripture (something MacArthur’s assso. pastor; Phil Johnson has written against on Pyromaniac website)
    3. Non-Cessationists (MacArthur is a cessationist)
    4. Post-trib/Amillenialists (note: MacArthur is pretrib)

    Quite a big difference and very disturbing and sad in this new group.

    Prayers for people to come to repentant faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. Mark 1:15

    Thank you.

  • DG

    please excuse my typos in the prior post. Thank you.

  • Hilgard Muller

    Is there any artcle on John MacAthur, is he also a FP

  • African Man....

    First of all, I have to confess that the email address I used in this post is absolutely false, but please let that not discredit what I am about to say. I am just a tad paranoid about the information I dispel over the web.
    That being said, I always check up on this blog because I am a firm believer in the fact that Christians should be watchdogs for other Christians, and weigh what is being commonly said against what scripture says, so that 1 John 1 v 1-4 will be fulfilled.
    I have read your article and I would like to draw everyone’s attention to the following post:

    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A341_Why-I-Am-a-Calvinist-Part-1

    If you have the time to read the posts here, I would suggest you read the entire transcript (all 4 parts). I would like to know your thoughts on it, and please read through it, don’t just scan through it looking for error.

    I have been studying John Macarthur’s ministry and while it has not been free from speedbumps (no good ministry is, check out what happened with the corinthians) He is one of the few that is actually improving his theology in the right direction, so even if you feel you have found a flaw, don’t make it sound like he is the next coming of Rick Warren.
    When you do this, you sound no different from the mainstream media around the world with their “hot button journalism” that serves to stir up nothing but chaos and confusion, to the benefit of the rich that own and control the information.

    And about Mohler and the Manhattan declaration, while that is sad, do not associate it with Macarthur’s theology because Macarthur refused to sign it. He does not care about Neo-Calvinism, that is Driscoll’s cup of tea. The Shepherd’s Conference is about an entirely different thing, go and read up on it (though I am pretty sure you must have, seeing as you are always so thorough).

    Lastly, I am not trying to be combative (unless it is against heresey), I am just a young man who almost Lost his faith because of blogs like these taking some things out of context. I thank God for the Bible, because at the end of the day that is the only word that matters. Peace to you all, and God bless you all in all that you do, and may you all never lose your fire in your continuous pursuit of the truth according to God’s word in Jesus’ name….

  • Sarah M

    Okay, I just found this site and have been perusing relevant topics when I came across this one. I am a Driscoll, Mohler, MacArthur fan (did I miss anyone?) and am definitely in the *young* crowd they attract and yes, discovered them in my university ministry. So, a little concerned, but I have a couple of thoughts…

    1) I do not claim Calvinism, and I think it is far from perfect. I don’t believe Calvinism/Reformed Theology is the Gospel, but ‘the Bible is the Gospel of Jesus’ It does, however, aid me in understanding. I don’t believe that Theology will save us, but I believe that theology is a good tool to use to better understand things. (1 The. 4:13 – Paul teaches them about ‘those who are asleep’ so that they wouldn’t be alarmed. This is an example of a teaching that is doctrinal, that helps to comfort after someone’s passing) The thing is, if seeking Truth is seeking God, who is True, then wouldn’t it make sense to find a reasoning/rationality about Him? I think it would be unwise to think we can box God’s ways neatly. But can’t we understand from what has been revealed in the Word to put together some sound guidelines?

    2) I also do ’embrace paradox and irrational beliefs’ (to some), but not in a “the Truth can never be known” kind of way. 1 Co 13 says that we “know in part” so we can’t ever get all the pieces right (especially since this is referring to knowing Christ, and that is what doctrine seeks to do this side of eternity) So, one day we WILL know, but until then His ways are higher than ours. An example of paradoxes I believe – God is both meek and mighty. That is straight from Jonathan Edwards. Another is, I believe I am saved now, but also have the hope of salvation. Regarding Calvinism, I believe in the elect of God’s chose, but also believe that we don’t know who they are (ro. 8:19) and so we must tell everyone everywhere about Jesus’ sacrifice. These things are paradoxes, but don’t lessen at all the objectiveness of the Truth of God.

    3) Calvinism again, I DEFINITELY believe in the preseverance of the saints!

    4) I agree that these are dark times. I am disheartend by what I see in the world, by what people I know approve of and am daily seeking to practice my discernment between good and evil. Thanks for what you all are doing. Let me know if i’m gonna burn for podcasting piper..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Free Grace Believer

    Oh boo hoo. What a load of nonsense.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hilgard

    I used to read John MacArthur and recommended him until I came to understand the ins and outs of Calvinism. When I realised how vile it was I could not believe how a man like John MacArthur (smile and all) could willingly follow such teachings.

    Calvinism is terribly deceptive in that it sounds 90% biblical, but when it comes to Salvation, there is no genuine conversion, you are just ‘chosen’. And because one needs to be GENUINELY SAVED in order to be a GENUINE Christian, if there is no genuine salvation then everything is FALSE.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    African Man

    Yes I have read the ENTIRE thing, and I DON’t scan looking for errors- the ERROR is PLAIN to see. You say you are not trying to be combative, but you ARE. And you almost lost your faith because of blogs like mine? Rubblish! You say you thank God for the Bible yet it’s clear you don’t read it other wise you would see the errors of Calvinism and run a mile from DARKNESS. You come and attack me instead – how cheap of you.

  • Burning Lamp

    Zelda said in response to my comments about fermented wine:

    Your belief about wine is not peculiar – I’ ve read a few good books on subject. It is blasphemy to compare the precious blood of Jesus Christ with a fermented substance . In the Bible fermentation signifies sin, as leven is also used to signify sin. But people will do anything to rationalize the use of wine. I beleieve that anything that impairs your ” contact” with the Holy Spirit, even if it means being only slightly tipsy from a glass of wine, is wrong and dangerous. Besides the fact that a journey starts with a step at a time and that is true for alcholism too.

    Thank you for validating my stance on this issue – I have never had anyone agree with this and it is plain as day to me.

    Zelda, you obviously have a heart for God. May He guide you into His truth and lead you in the ways of righteousness.

  • ol boy

    I am somewhat new to Calvinism. No one had to teach me or lead me to it but even as I read the bible, I began to see certain truths about salvation that led me to accept reformed theology. That being said, true biblical Christianity is not some kind of mental acceptance to some doctrines (I am not ecumenical!!). When the scriptures speaks of believing just like (Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness) it speaks of a belief that leads to action/obedience not that I mentally accept that Jesus died on the cross for me or i mentally accept some doctrine from my church. thats absolute nonsense. I came from a charismatic background and I have friends who although our theological viewpoints now differ are genuine believers whose lives have been transformed by the gospel of Christ and who are bearing much fruit. I am convinced that the issue is not what doctrines u may mentally cling to but rather whether a genuine work of salvation has been done in your heart resulting in practicing a lifestyle of obedience to Jesus and lifestyle of righteousness as the book of 1 john speaks of. (Calvinism, pentecostalism, arminianism, neocalvinism is not the issue, saving faith in Jesus Christ is and belkieve me in all denominations we have the lost and we have the true sheep of Christ)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    ol boy

    >> I am convinced that the issue is not what doctrines u may mentally cling to but rather whether a genuine work of salvation has been done in your heart resulting in practicing a lifestyle of obedience to Jesus and lifestyle of righteousness as the book of 1 john speaks of…..(Calvinism, pentecostalism, arminianism, neocalvinism is not the issue, saving faith in Jesus Christ is and belkieve me in all denominations we have the lost and we have the true sheep of Christ)

    In principle this sounds like it could work but due to the times we live in, the doctrines DARKER SIDES will come to the forefront and you will be FORCED to choose the truth or perish.

  • Burning Lamp

    Ol boy, if you have come to believe in Reformed theology, you have abandoned the true Gospel of the Bible.

    The true Gospel is that Jesus died for ALL – your new belief says that He only died for a few that God preselected.

    The true Gospel calls for a decision on the part of those who listen to the Gospel message. The Bible is very clear on this. Reformed theology says that if God has placed His “brand” on someone that they WILL receive Him with no choose in the matter. Nothing could be further from Biblical truth.

    There is much more, but I hope you will prayerfully read all the good biblically documented information that Deborah has put on this site about the false teaching of Calvinism/Reformed theology.

  • Pieter

    Hi Guys been a while, cant believe another year is almost gone…:)

    Ol boy do raise a very interesting point
    ol boy wrote:

    I am convinced that the issue is not what doctrines u may mentally cling to but rather whether a genuine work of salvation has been done in your heart resulting in practicing a lifestyle of obedience to Jesus and lifestyle of righteousness as the book of 1 john speaks of. (Calvinism, pentecostalism, arminianism, neocalvinism is not the issue, saving faith in Jesus Christ is and belkieve me in all denominations we have the lost and we have the true sheep of Christ)

    Its been something that has bothered me for a long time. Just because we differ on some doctrinal points does not mean one is not saved by Jesus. Or does it? I mean does it really matter if i believe in say post milleniasm and some one else in a pre-trib rapture? What is the the basis of salvation? Believe in Jesus Christ Son of God that he died for our sins? (Excuse my spelling). Isn’t all these things we tend to fight about, issues that does not affect one’s salvation? On judgment day will we be judged which doctrinal point of view we took? (please note I mean this within the basis of true/orthodox Christianity) These things are so confusing.
    Anyhow thanks for listening and keep up your good work!
    God Bless
    P

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pieter

    As I said, this type of thinking might have still been ok 20 years ago. Now it’s not ok, SIMPLY BECAUSE of the times we are living in. If you follow the wrong teaching you WILL end up on the wrong end of the track. Satan will make sure of that. People keep forgetting that we are in a WAR against principalities of evil who are hell bent in brining you to hell with them. And because this topic is about Calvinism and Calvinism blatantly destroys the message of HOW TO BE SAVED.

  • Pieter

    Debs
    I hear you
    And believe me I am not defending Calvinism in the slightest. I know far to little about it to take a stance. My argument is and maybe it’s been covered somewhere on your site before, that there surely must be genuinely saved Christians which are Calvinists, or Lutheran or Anglican or any of these denominations? Even Catholic? (on that one I really am guessing)
    But I will ask the question again? Will God judge us one-day on the denomination and doctrine we followed or whether we were saved by the Blood of Christ? Does it really matter whether you follow the believe in the TULIP? Or does it matter to have a personal relationship with Jesus? Can one have both?
    AARRRGGGG I don’t know how you guys manage all these things everyday its enough to make one’s head spin twice around the world!
    Anyhow enjoy your weekend.

  • Matt

    Pieter,

    If a person isM going to judgment day (the great white throne judgment), then that person is not saved. The whole point of Jesus’s salvation is to avoid that judgment (John 5:24).

    So it does matter what a person believes. A person must believe that Jesus is God (this means Mormon and JW are not Christian, because they deny that Jesus is God), and a person must believe that salvation is by believing in Jesus without works (this means that catholic and orthodox are not Christian, because they demand works).

  • Burning Lamp

    Great answer Debs!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pieter

    Yes there are people stuck in the Calvinist denomination in the times we are living in who are saved, but I can tell you now that the Holy Spirit will WARN the person as to what Calvinism is all about and sooner rather than later the person will get out of there. Which means that there will be no Christians sitting in their congregation as they would have all left lol. No just kidding… Some people take a long time to wake up to the errors that are actually jumping out and biting them on their nose.

    Let me use the WoF church as a good example. 50 years ago my grandfather attended WoF churches, he was indeed a saved man. He was a God fearing man who had the gift to preach unlike any other. Yet he was in a Word of Faith Church. But wait, 50 years ago the WoF church was still ok, their dark teachings had not really started to surface as yet. Before my grandfather died he left the WoF churches as he felt something terrible had gone wrong (that was 20 years ago). He found some good preachers books and started to read their stuff, I believe my grandfather died a saved man, because he was seeking the truth and I know for a FACT that the Holy Spirit showed him the truth. Now look at the WoF churches today, a nightmare.

    It’s like someone going to an Angus Buchan conference (this is like the worst example I can use) and the person gets saved! But hang on, God was no where near working through Angus at those conferences. The person got saved because THEY THEMSELVES were looking for Jesus Christ and their lives were changed that day. What will happen next? I can tell you (and I will lay my head on a block) the Holy Spirit will immediately warn that person that Angus Buchan is false and to get away from him.

    >> Does it really matter whether you follow the believe in the TULIP? Or does it matter to have a personal relationship with Jesus? Can one have both?

    You can’t have DOCTRINES OF DEMONS and what you then think is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus is the WORD, and the Holy Spirit will ALWAYS point you on the right path as to what is correct WORD. Darkness and Light do not mix together.

  • Burning Lamp

    Pieter, it sounds like you don’t have a clear grasp of the true biblical message of salvation upon which all belief systems have to be measured by. This is a prime target of the enemy – the bedrock of the faith. There can be differences beyond this, but the matter of salvation is in granite the anchor.

    Pieter, just concentrate on that first and foremost and forget about all the other things. Then you will be able to sort out the rest from a firm foundation.

    One point of clarification – can one believe in the TULIP and be saved? Can one believe in baptismal regeneration and be saved? Only God knows the heart, but it is our job to determine correct doctrine from false and to contend for the faith and the truth.

  • Burning Lamp

    Debs, you gave a great answer to Pieter – I didn’t read it until after I had posted my comments. You gave the better explanation.

  • Pieter

    Thank you everyone!

    Your explanations are fully understandable.

    Have a wonderful blessed week
    P

  • ol boy

    Burning Lamp, thanks 4 the concern for my salvation but i do believe in the true biblical gospel, reformed theology is simply the method through which i understand/interpret it. i do not view reformed theology or any other viewpoint as the gospel

    >>> “to come to God one must simply repent and believe on the Christ and his finished work on the cross and resurrection for our sins..this belief is then evidenced by fruit or works as the book of James clarifies” all reformed theology states is that all those who end up repenting and believing were chosen before the foundation of the world (predestined to be conformed to his image)regardless of denomination>>>

    (The idea of election seems so strange to people yet the old testament clearly shows that Yahweh made Israel his bride and literally turned his back on the rest of the world. He gave them over to their idolatry deut 32:8-9/rom 1..Abraham from a pagan background was chosen by God for no reason other than Gods electing grace) i understand everyone’s concern for good doctrine especially since Paul asks timothy to watch his life and doctrine but i also find solace in Paul’s statement that “we know in part”..i don’t believe any denomination has a full grasp on all truth of scripture so in a sense we all may have some error, if perfect doctrine is necessary for salvation does that not become a work in itself??>> There are “other gospels” but in the context of Galatians i believe that Paul refers to gospels that attempt to bring individuals back under the law of Moses while detaching them from the sufficiency of Christ’s work on the cross, and i doubt that reformed theology or any other orthodox method of understanding salvation falls under that category..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    ol boy

    >> The idea of election seems so strange to people yet the old testament clearly shows that Yahweh made Israel his bride and literally turned his back on the rest of the world.

    We have already discussed this. Please read all the comments above. Starting at the top, down. Thanks. Your interpretation of scripture is incorrect regarding Israel and so called election.

  • Burning Lamp

    Ol Boy, if you believe in TULIP and reformed theology you do NOT believe in the biblical Gospel. TULIP guts and negates the Gospel. Do you actually know what TULIP means? For example the “L”? Do you actually believe that Christ only died for a select group of people and that others are headed to hell from birth? Think about it sir – that is NOT what the Bible says! In fact, that is an insult to the sacrifice of Christ – I say that respectfully because I do not believe that if you examine these beliefs that you will continue to believe in them.

  • Pieter

    Hi Guys
    Old me again… I had the flue the last day or so…yep in summer can you believe it. In between sniffles, coughs and feeling sorry for myself I re-read al your comments.
    Again I am not defending Calvinism in the slightest. I am going to use a big earthly word, one which clash with any religion. *drum roll*
    Logic
    Logically I cannot understand how Calvinism has been in existence for 500 years and people are not saved whom hold and believed in that doctrine. Debs and BL, I am truly not attacking your knowledge which far exceeds mine, but I am struggling with understanding this. If Calvinism is the doctrine of demons then no-one holding to that doctrine can or was saved? If it is the false Gospel then we basically lost most of the world the past 500 years to hell? Hec, before that it was Roman Catholicism?
    I know its tough questions and once you might have answered over and over again. I aim is not to open a repetitive dialogue for you and I know you have far more important work to do.
    Anyhow, I am reading my Bible and praying the Holy Spirit will guide me towards all truths and maybe this is the way, asking those whom already had these tough questions in front of them.
    BL. Thank you for the explanation on looking/focusing on Salvation and that truth. I agree, last year I used the statement that I am a baby Christian. However, today it still feels like I am drinking milk all the time…
    God Bless
    P

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pieter

    >> Logically I cannot understand how Calvinism has been in existence for 500 years and people are not saved whom hold and believed in that doctrine. Debs and BL, I am truly not attacking your knowledge which far exceeds mine, but I am struggling with understanding this. If Calvinism is the doctrine of demons then no-one holding to that doctrine can or was saved? If it is the false Gospel then we basically lost most of the world the past 500 years to hell? Hec, before that it was Roman Catholicism?

    Oh no no lol, what makes you think Calvinism has been the doctrine that everyone has held to for the last 500 years? Calvinists would love you to believe that they ARE the Gospel. Go read up on the history of John Calvin and see how he was HATED by the people of Geneva because he was a tyrant. In fact Calvinism was so disliked it had to go underground and resurfaced as… Presbyterianism (surprise!!!) and then they changed their name again to Reformed Theology.

    Before John Calvin were born again Christians and the Bible :) during the reign of John Calvin there were true Christians, afterward there there true Christians, today there are true Christians. And again, I’ve said this before, people sitting in the pews could most definitely be saved unless they have gone so far as to believe in TULIP.

    No question is too tough for me. I spend my day studying and searching and constantly asking Jesus for help so I can help others!

  • Burning Lamp

    Pieter, I would not presume to say that all those who believe in Reformed Theology are not saved. They believe Christ died for their sins, and we are saved by grace, not of works but it is what is beyond that is troubling. I should say they are promoting a false Gospel. Now Catholicism is another story. They believe in works salvation. That was the schism that Martin Luther split wide open. But sadly it went downhill from there.

  • Pieter

    BL and Debs

    Again thank you for your explanations. And thanks for graciously answering every “stupid” question I am asking.
    I might not “see” what you are seeing at the moment and might even not understand everything, but with a Brother and Sister in Christ like the two of you, I don’t feel so alone….I feel there is someone with guidance from our Lord where I can ask these questions.
    Debs I will go and do some research on Calvin you are one of the most knowledgably people I have ever met, online of course! Knowledge like that can only come from God, and BL its never easy to see a “tone” in writing since one cannot see someone’s face, but the way you always very humbly and graciously answer questions shows that Christ is with you and in you.
    Truly thank you
    God Bless you

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pieter

    I try my best dude. That’s all I can do. Because I know you need answers and if I don’t give the correct answer to your questions, where are you gonna get them from? My writing style might not come out as good as BL’s but believe me if you met me you will see I am lovable and very humble. I think the reason I come across as stern is because of my background, being in the occult for many many years and then escaping it has made me realise that Salvation is not a game to play. Satan will do anything and I mean anything to twist even just ever so slightly God’s word to change it’s meaning and fool men and lead them off to hell. I’ve seen hell (metaphorically speaking now) face to face and I do not want anyone to go there. The nightmare I went through when I called out to Jesus Christ to save me lasted a year, because Satan refused to let me go. I had no one to help me, only FAITH in Jesus that He WOULD SAVE ME and man did HE ONLY SAVE ME. The other side is not a game, the evil that lies there is beyond most people’s imaginations, but I have seen some of it and I do not want people to lose their souls to that. I sometimes sit here and cry as I answer peoples questions, people don’t see me crying, they just see what I type and how I have typed it.

    Anyhow, that was lesson 101 as to why I might seem stern when I write comments.

  • Pieter

    Thx debs

    I am 100% sure of that! thx a mil and keep on fighting the good fight!

  • MJH

    Deborah

    To be upfront, I believe the doctrines of Calvinism to be true. So take me for what I am, but don’t just throw away what I say.

    “I used to read John MacArthur and recommended him until I came to understand the ins and outs of Calvinism. When I realised how vile it was I could not believe how a man like John MacArthur (smile and all) could willingly follow such teachings.

    Calvinism is terribly deceptive in that it sounds 90% biblical, but when it comes to Salvation, there is no genuine conversion, you are just ‘chosen’. And because one needs to be GENUINELY SAVED in order to be a GENUINE Christian, if there is no genuine salvation then everything is FALSE.”

    You seem to have hatred in your heart, calling Calvinism vile and terribly deceptive. In fact, all of your posts seem in some way to show a high degree of contempt towards the doctrines that Calvinism teaches. You are making Calvinism out to be a villain. I can almost see your face enraged against it.

    Why? Should you not be sorrowful if you truly believe Calvinism is heretical? So far, you have just shown yourself to be angry. I don’t see any hint of love. Just hatred. Your last post does show a deep concern for people’s souls, which I understand, but when it comes to Calvinism, you are not concerned for their souls, but simply filled with hate towards the doctrines.

    And it would seem this hatred is blinding you from really understanding Calvinism. When you say things like, “there is no genuine conversion,” you make yourself out to be very foolish and you reveal your ignorance. It makes your anger seem childish. I’m being harsh, but the reality is, you sound like you are arguing from anger and not understanding. This is what children do. So far, you have an argument that says, Calvinism is evil and that is that. Have you defended this? No. Just continual slander is what I read.

    “You can’t have DOCTRINES OF DEMONS and what you then think is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus is the WORD, and the Holy Spirit will ALWAYS point you on the right path as to what is correct WORD. Darkness and Light do not mix together.”

    “When you read anything written by a Calvinist, try read it from the Calvinist’s ‘Elect perspective’, only then will realise just how terrible their doctrine is.”

    “You are right. It’s worse. As I said below, it’s Emergent Calvinism.”

    “you attend a Reformed church which may as well be a Catholic church.”

    “Oh boo hoo. What a load of nonsense.”

    “You say you thank God for the Bible yet it’s clear you don’t read it other wise you would see the errors of Calvinism and run a mile from DARKNESS. You come and attack me instead – how cheap of you.”

    There is a pattern to be noticed in your posts: Just slander and no explanation. Stabbing and no discussion. Hatred and no understanding. I could continue quoting you; I think I only got halfway down the posts.

    And it is funny that we all use the same arguments to convince each other. I would say that if you search scriptures earnestly, you would find election, sovereignty, perseverance, total depravity, etc etc to be wonderfully true. You say if we search scriptures earnestly we would see how false these doctrines are. However, the way you speak makes me believe that you have not truly brought yourself to understand what and why Calvinists believe what they do. You have not engaged the world in a mature discussion. Please, show us scripture. Please tell us why you hate Calvinism. What about Calvinism is demonic?

    Every post, from your article to the last post holds up “Calvinism” and says this, “Look. See how foolish it is?! Isn’t it demonic? Yes, it is demonic.” Yet you do not discuss what Calvinism really is. Your article says, “Listen to this, isn’t it stupid?” And yet what I am listening to actually sounds great to me and you did nothing to argue a point. You just said it was stupid and laughed. Please explain! Please do not slander Calvinism. Give substance to your arguments. Do not be immature and point and scoff. Tell me why. Tell me why.

    I am deeply concerned for your doctrine as you isolate yourself from the body of believers. Paul exhorts pastors to be on guard against wolves who come in and twist doctrine and lead the body astray. He exhorts them to rebuke, reprove, correct, and train in righteousness. You have removed yourself from this, thinking your doctrine is true doctrine and no church shares your convictions. This is a sign of heresy brewing in your heart. You are well on your way to being a heretic. Who is there to tell you when you are wrong? Who is there to point out your incorrect interpretations? Who is double checking you? Who is sharpening you? Do not surround your itching ears with those who will affirm your doctrines. You need the church. Get back to the church. You have excommunicated yourself. You have divorced yourself from Christ’s beloved.

  • Burning Lamp

    MJH, you deserve credit for showing your Calvinist/Reformed badge and not sneaking in unawares as others have done.

    However, you show your own ignorance and blindness. Yes, Deborah can get a little flippant in her remarks, but she has to have a lot of spunk to give a retort to those who are far off the track.

    You are guilty of judging Deborah’s heart while she has not done that. She has exposed a wicked and evil and destructivew doctrine.
    She has used scripture and this is clearly shown in all discussions here.

    You tell her to get back in church as if that will make her more spiritual. There are many believers who are disenfranchised by the current apostasy and have no place of worship. They cry out and desire sound teaching but it is not to be found in their areas. They grieve over this. They long for the gathering together and fellowship. But many of them have had to resort to the internet to find like-minded people who still value God’s truth. How dare you condemn Deborah for not being in church. Just any church? The Bible commands us to come out and be separate and this means that many dedicated believers have sadly been called out of their churches that no longer preach sound doctrine. Would you condemn them as well?

    I can’t say for sure, but I believe it is quite possible that Deborah is more in the Word than you and walks closer to the Lord than you and is driven to her knees more than you because of her circumstance.

    She has the courage to stand for truth and takes incredible heat for it. She has a husband who supports her and that is none of your business sir. You sit in your church and your pride comes out loud and clear. And if you know your scriptures, you know that pride is most hated by our Lord. Deborah would not be doing this if she didn’t care about the souls of people. She is defending the faith and trying to snatch people from the fire as it speaks of in Jude.

    Calvinism instills pride rather than repentance. It totally leaves out the main ingredient in salvation – repentance. God requires that of each one of us according to His Word and that concept seems to be foreign to you.

    I am sorry if this seems harsh. I care DEEPLY about every lost soul and I care DEEPLY about every person who is devoured by wolves in sheep’s clothing and every believer who is led astray. I care DEEPLY about YOU and I pray that you will come to a true knowledge of the true Gospel of the Bible.

    We do not judge your heart sir, we judge the doctrine on which you hang your hat.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    ol boy wrote:

    I am somewhat new to Calvinism. No one had to teach me or lead me to it but even as I read the bible, I began to see certain truths about salvation that led me to accept reformed theology. That being said, true biblical Christianity is not some kind of mental acceptance to some doctrines (I am not ecumenical!!). When the scriptures speaks of believing just like (Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness) it speaks of a belief that leads to action/obedience not that I mentally accept that Jesus died on the cross for me or i mentally accept some doctrine from my church. thats absolute nonsense. I came from a charismatic background and I have friends who although our theological viewpoints now differ are genuine believers whose lives have been transformed by the gospel of Christ and who are bearing much fruit. I am convinced that the issue is not what doctrines u may mentally cling to but rather whether a genuine work of salvation has been done in your heart resulting in practicing a lifestyle of obedience to Jesus and lifestyle of righteousness as the book of 1 john speaks of. (Calvinism, pentecostalism, arminianism, neocalvinism is not the issue, saving faith in Jesus Christ is and belkieve me in all denominations we have the lost and we have the true sheep of Christ)

    GE wishes to encourage an honest man:

    And say, Ol Boy, you persevere! The Word of God does not return to Him empty. And your faith is inalienable to see you through till the day you will be received on the other side of the door OF DEATH THROUGH THE RESURRECTION by your SAviour God and Lord Jesus Christ!

    “Strengthened with all might according to God’s glorious POWER, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness, giving thanks to the Father who has made us meet (in Jesus Christ) to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us into the Kingdom of his dear Son IN WHOM WE _HAVE_ redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. … That their hearts might be COMFORTED … and this I say lest any man BEGUILE YOU WITH ENTICING WORDS…”

    Stand fast in truth God has set you free in!

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    MJH, you deserve credit for showing your Calvinist/Reformed badge and not sneaking in unawares as others have done.

    However, you show your own ignorance and blindness. Yes, Deborah can get a little flippant in her remarks, but she has to have a lot of spunk to give a retort to those who are far off the track.

    You are guilty of judging Deborah’s heart while she has not done that. She has exposed a wicked and evil and destructivew doctrine.
    She has used scripture and this is clearly shown in all discussions here.

    You tell her to get back in church as if that will make her more spiritual. There are many believers who are disenfranchised by the current apostasy and have no place of worship. They cry out and desire sound teaching but it is not to be found in their areas. They grieve over this. They long for the gathering together and fellowship. But many of them have had to resort to the internet to find like-minded people who still value God’s truth. How dare you condemn Deborah for not being in church. Just any church? The Bible commands us to come out and be separate and this means that many dedicated believers have sadly been called out of their churches that no longer preach sound doctrine. Would you condemn them as well?

    I can’t say for sure, but I believe it is quite possible that Deborah is more in the Word than you and walks closer to the Lord than you and is driven to her knees more than you because of her circumstance.

    She has the courage to stand for truth and takes incredible heat for it. She has a husband who supports her and that is none of your business sir. You sit in your church and your pride comes out loud and clear. And if you know your scriptures, you know that pride is most hated by our Lord. Deborah would not be doing this if she didn’t care about the souls of people. She is defending the faith and trying to snatch people from the fire as it speaks of in Jude.

    Calvinism instills pride rather than repentance. It totally leaves out the main ingredient in salvation – repentance. God requires that of each one of us according to His Word and that concept seems to be foreign to you.

    I am sorry if this seems harsh. I care DEEPLY about every lost soul and I care DEEPLY about every person who is devoured by wolves in sheep’s clothing and every believer who is led astray. I care DEEPLY about YOU and I pray that you will come to a true knowledge of the true Gospel of the Bible.

    We do not judge your heart sir, we judge the doctrine on which you hang your hat.

    GE says,

    How many times have I read and heard and experienced this — you, ‘Burning Lamp’ — in all its splendour.

    NEVER SO POTENT, POISONOUS, POLITE AND CONCENTRATED. this post of yours merits saving in my ‘BEST’ folder.

  • Gerhard Ebersöhn

    [EDITED by DTW – This is not the PLACE TO PREACH YOUR FALSE TULIP DOCTRINE]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    GE

    >>How many times have I read and heard and experienced this — you, ‘Burning Lamp’ — in all its splendour.

    >> NEVER SO POTENT, POISONOUS, POLITE AND CONCENTRATED. this post of yours merits saving in my ‘BEST’ folder.

    Well, lets see what we have here. We have a TERRIBLY NASTY comment FOR NO REASON AT ALL. I wonder why. Is is because of the this part, “Calvinism instills pride rather than repentance. It totally leaves out the main ingredient in salvation – repentance.” Well Burning Lamp is 100% correct. Because a Calvinist is CHOSEN (always secure) there is NO need for repentance because they are CHOSEN by God, before birth. They can lapse into sin, in fact they can become as mean and nasty as John Calvin himself and resort to murdering people and never repent, as they have this ‘I am Chosen chip on their shoulder’. I mean what is the point of repentance and all that if you are chosen – nothing at all.

    If that was not your REASON for your mean comment, please do let me know what was?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    GE

    >> Stand fast in truth God has set you free in!

    Notice the words TRUTH Gerhard, If you believe in a false doctrine it wont set you free. You are blinded by TULIP.

  • Burning Lamp

    GE – I consider your comments to be a compliment – they weren’t even addressed to you unless you are MJH in disguise. But you are welcome to comment on any post.

    Could you be so disturbed because the simple truth is unsettling to your intellect and the Holy Spirit is trying to break through the fog of false doctrine and pride?

    Did you miss the part where I said how much I cared for the souls of those who are mired in false doctrines? Sir, can you say the same thing? No you cannot, because the TULIP prevents you from doing so!! There is no point because TULIP says the eternal state of every human being is cut and dried. Your main concern is defending TULIP, not saving souls with the Gospel. Can you not see that?

  • MJH

    Howdy,

    Burning Lamp- Thanks for calling out any judgment on my part that is unwarranted. I still stand where I left off, however. I read through Deborah’s responses and her posts and, if you’d like to point me where I may be missing it, I did not see scripture used or a real conversation about the pitfalls of Calvinism. It wasn’t until this last post by Deborah (and your last) that she and you pointed out things you believe to be true of Calvinism (why its evil). I say this meaning this: prior to these last two posts, what I read was, “Calvinism is evil.” Now I read, “Calvinism is evil because…” This is what I was getting at. That is what I was hoping to hear. It is one thing to say that why you think something is bad (this is at least a conversation that can be entered from both sides). Its another to just say its bad with no explanation (this leaves no room for conversation).

    Now in regards to being a part of a church, I agree with you that we need to be in churches that are solid and biblical, committed to scripture and filled with love for its people. If you’re telling me there are no churches anywhere that are like that, then I must say I am sad for Deborah. It would be terribly hard to be removed from the corporate body of believers for any period of time, especially due to the lack of any church that preaches the gospel. I still hold fast to the warning I said before, though. Isolation from the corporate body, and more importantly, from church authority, is a dangerous road to walk on, to the sides of which lie the ditches of heresy. Be careful.

    Now if we are to have an honest discussion about Calvinism, I think it would demand that both sides listen. I don’t think I’ve heard many people try to defend Calvinism on here, and I am afraid that the Calvinism side is being censored out: “[EDITED by DTW – This is not the PLACE TO PREACH YOUR FALSE TULIP DOCTRINE].” I don’t know what GE wrote. I can’t say whether it was contributing or not. I read your reasons why Calvinism is evil, and I hope you will hear me out and leave my post on here.

    Many Calvinists, you are right, are prideful and arrogant. I think the reasons may be for some of the reasons you say, such as thinking they have got it and that they are better than others. They will receive their discipline from the Lord. Many people are turned off by Calvinist’s arrogance, so I definitely understand where this comes from.

    But it saddens me. I would love to have a real conversation with you over e-mail or something, because what I read in your responses about why Calvinism is evil really disheartens me. The result of the doctrines of grace (yes I’ll use the term) in people’s life is really quite the opposite of what you’re saying. People may be prideful about being Calvinists, but the doctrines of grace would really have none of that. There is no room for pride. Repentance is still essential and foremost in Calvinism. Caring for lost souls is still immense in Calvinism. The things you are saying, the things I am hearing from you guys, about why Calvinism is awful are really, really sad to me, because they simply are not true. I’m not out to defend Calvinism to be right. I really believe if you understood Calvinism, you would love God more and desire to save people more, and pray more, and hope more, and repent more, and see your sin more, and desire holiness more, and be led to humility more. It is sad that you are getting Calvinism wrong (I’m not saying you’re illogical. The things you say make sense at face value. But the things you say are entirely off base.), because it leads straight to the Cross and far away from ourselves.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    MJH

    What are you feeling sorry for me for? LOL Isolation from the CORPORATE BODY? Oh go play marbles on the highway. No really. You can rely on people and man made authority. I have a super relationship with Jesus Christ – HE IS MY AUTHORITY, and I GET ALL MY INFORMATION AND ANSWERS FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT. I am terribly sorry to hear it’s not this way for you, maybe you should try it some time and then you will realise how the Apostles made it through their long days stuck in jail or dumped on islands with non other but the enemy surrounding them, THEY HAD JESUS AS THEIR AUTHORITY and the HOLY SPIRIT AS THEIR COUNCILOR.

    You will lie in the ditches of heresy if you obey men, and not the Holy Spirit.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    MJH

    Gerhard E was censored out because of a long conversation that has taken place over a few days that got VERY NASTY. So I banned him from commenting again.

    Here is an entire article on Calvinism: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/13/calvinism-a-heretical-doctrine-thats-what-the-bible-says/ <--=- here you will find everything you need to know about Calvinism

  • Burning Lamp

    MJH, like most Calvinists you muddy the waters and get off on bunny trails. Yes, I am mixing metaphors but bunny trails can go through muddy waters. :-)

    You seem like a very nice person, unlike GE who turned nasty. I hope we can get to the heart of the matter without any lengthy dissertations.

    The heart of the matter is TULIP. It is simple. Going beyond that is not productive.
    Deborah has provided biblical support in her articles and it is not necessary to cover that ground again.

    It is next to impossible for one who believes in TULIP to have a burden for the lost. God has it all in place and it doesn’t mattere what we do. Everyone’s eternal destiny is determined before their birth and there is no reason to share the Gospel with them as there is no decision to be made. Those who are chosen for salvation will, by Irrestible Grace be savedone way or another. We are all just puppets in a play. Calvinists will try and dress that up to look biblical by hanging their hat on certain verses about God’s sovereignty that are twisted to conform to this evil doctrine.

    Calvinism appeals to the intellect because it requires mental gymastics to believe in it. It makes a SIMPLE Gospel complicated. The Gospel requires us to become like a little child which is a stumbling block for intellectuals.

    So let’s keep any discussion SIMPLE and confined to TULIP and the concepts it represents. Okee dokee?

  • MJH

    Well now. I guess I stepped into a much much much bigger cultural experience than I thought I had. That article was really insightful in understanding your position. I didn’t realize how cultural Calvinism is in South Africa and how twisted it became. It is really crazy to realize that we are in discussion about one thing, Calvinism, but that thing, called by the same name, looks very different in our own world views. I’m American (don’t hate me), and I never ever have experienced what you have in the Dutched Reformed Church. I really have no idea how twisted it is.

    I must point out that the article defines Calvinism by this Dutch Reformed experience, and in my understanding, attributes cultural, man-made beliefs to the five points. Example: Infant baptism saves. Not really in the five points. Not biblical. It is very very interesting to see this and realize that you and I share a completely different world view on Calvinism.

    Another interesting thing is that this article’s objections to the five points are strangely my own objections. I hold to the five points, but if I were to believe what the author does about what each point means, then I, too, would argue the same things. However, I don’t believe the author explains the five points the same way I do (or the majority of Calvinists I know), and therefore, draws very very startling conclusions, to which I say, “You’re right, we shouldn’t believe those things.”

    The bit on Spurgeon was really interesting because it almost seams sympathetic to Spurgeon. I would agree with Spurgeon in the way they describe his beliefs (I can’t comment on some things like “premillenialism vs amillenialist” vs “dispensationalism” etc) and so it seams like there is a very distinct system which the author calls Calvinism. This system of “Calvinism” is oppressive and believes 1) people are saved by sacriments, 2) there is no need for sanctification, 3) once saved, you can sin as much as you want, 4) the Church will rule the world, 5) there is no need for man to play a role in God’s redeeming work of salvation (including preaching, praying, testifying, witnessing, etc). I’m sure there are more points to include in this, but I must depart for now.

    But I’ll leave you with this: If I’m getting the right picture of how this author sees Calvinism, then yes, this “Calvinism” is awful.

    I’m writing on borrowed time (got a Christmas party to attend), but I will hopefully approach this again shortly. Please comment. I’ll be back soon.

  • John

    The extreme spirtual pride and judgementalism I found on this blog exceeds the worst I have ever come accross after serving the Lord for more than 50 years.
    What happened to the example Jesus gave of humility and a servants heart?
    Just listen to yourselves and consider whether Jesus would be comfortable with your harsh judgments of people confessing Him as Saviour and Lord?
    Do you not know that Truth is discerned through love – see Johns letters.
    I fear that if non-Christians are exposed to this kind of spiritual pride and hatred of fellow Christians, it may bring Jesus so much into disrepute, they would never want to listen to the gospel ever again!
    Please be responsible and follow the example of Jesus if you love Him.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    Terrible isn’t it. Oh, sorry… were you speaking about yourself? ….. “The extreme spirtual pride and judgementalism…”

    “Bring Jesus into much disrepute”??? HAHA HAHA HAHA That’s the best one I’ve heard so far. So according to you the truth must be stopped, no more arguing, for fear that a non-Christian would never want to listen to the gospel again. You obviously take people to be complete imbeciles who want to be fed baby’s milk out a bottle for the rest of their lives -never mind if the milk is sour and turning green.

    John by trying to side with the enemy for the sake of UNITY, you bring Jesus into much disrepute.

  • Burning Lamp

    John, if you love the Lord, you will hate false doctrine and teaching that is harmful to people. Do you not care about those who are being ravaged by wolves that have crept in unawares? John, your attitude is not love at all. In fact, it is not loving God and His truth and it is not loving people. Wolves are allowed to ravage the flocks because of people like you who remain silent or perhaps have not taken notice.

  • In His Grip

    MJH,

    If you really want to go through the biblical arguments against TULIP in greater detail then I recommend downloading an excellent teaching tool on Calvinism available on Caryl Matrisciana’s website. Here is the direct link: http://www.carylmatrisciana.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66:teaching-tool-on-calvinism&catid=39&Itemid=58

    There you can download a PDF document entitled The Notebook: Reformed Theology Explained and Exposed. It’s long but very easy to read. It’s written by a person who was a staunch Calvinist for 14 years. Often times the people who can best help us to see where a particular belief system is in error are those who were once trapped in that same belief system themselves.

    God bless.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    In His Grip

    Faannntastic!

  • In His Grip

    Hi Deborah,

    Ya that book is fantastic. Still busy with it myself with but wow what a blessing it has been to me.

    You just keep on keeping on. Been visiting here for a few months now and I love that you stick with the Truth – no matter how difficult that may be. This site is like a last outpost for us so-called ‘fundamentalists’ and I for one am very grateful that it’s here.

    Hey, I was wondering if you have any material on Heidi Baker (of Iris Ministries in Mozambique). I know she is NAR/Toronto/Vineyard and that her husband Rolland is quoted on YouTube as saying that William Branham is ‘probably the most anointed man since Jesus.’ Apparently Heidi may be coming out to SA soon (sigh) and I want to be able to warn people about the dangers associated with her ‘ministry’. Many can’t seem to accept that there could be anything dodgy about her. Her ongoing work in the orphanages that she has established seems to shield her from scrutiny. Any suggestions?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    In His Grip

    Thank you so much. I believe there are many people reading this site that I am completely unaware of who are being helped because of the stand I take. Do you know how many people have tried to shut this site down? Many people. Even so called friends have told me to stop this blog. And then not long afterwards I found out that they themselves had ulterior motives. Unnbeeeelievable.

    Thanks for the heads up. I will do an article on Heidi Baker. She is bad news.

  • In His Grip

    Thanks Deborah. An article on Heidi Baker would be greatly appreciated. She is someone who strongly influences a great many women here in SA – and some men too. And the supernatural always seems to be at play. I have heard first hand accounts from people who claim that Heidi’s name come to them in a dream and the next thing they knew they were on their way to Mozambique to volunteer at one of her orphanages.

    It’s almost impossible to get those who are wrapped up in ‘lying signs and wonders’ to heed any kind of warning but if I had more of the facts regarding Heidi’s ‘ministry’ at my disposal, then perhaps some seed of truth might be able to take root in future.

    I’m not in the least bit surprised to hear that many people have tried put an end to this blog. But thankfully you have not stopped fighting the good fight. Yaymen to that.

  • MJH

    After getting to just page 36 of the 300 some odd pages of the article makes it very clear to me that the author truly distorts Calvinism in the same way she/he thinks that Calvinism distorts scripture. The author attributes beliefs to Calvinism that simply aren’t true, villainizing it, making it out to be a very disgusting doctrine of belief. It’s hardly worth discussing a 300 page manuscript that starts off its discussion with blatant errors about the doctrine it so vehemently opposes. “Are there additional requirements for salvation? Yes, election, irresistible grace, lordship salvation [Don’t really know what the author is talking about here] and adherence to the law. Some hold to baptismal regeneration.” There are no additions. None at all. Just grace. And again, “Many Calvinists believe that Jesus has already come back in a spiritual Second Coming and is now ruling from heaven…” Who are many, and why have I never heard of this? There are plenty of other examples where the author is just not getting it right.

    There is correct information about Calvinism in there, all over the place in fact. But there is also a lot of incorrect stuff and a lot of generalizations that have no backbone, that say Calvinism is wrong, but then fail to say anything about why. It would be a tremendous mountain to climb to weed through this, and even if I managed to climb it, I doubt you would find my argument persuasive.

    If you are reading these things which lay out lies about certain doctrines (very long lies), then I find myself inclined to simply step away from this conversation. You are entrenched in a belief system that hates a mutant form of something very glorious and you do not see past the gross perversions of these doctrines. Attempting to wrestle with the errors of the things said about Calvinism here and correct them would be like attempting to pull cactus needles out of an animal that thrashes about in the brush. You don’t want to see Calvinism as anything but vile, and so the lies about it perpetually stick in your understanding of it, making it remain very vile.

    Please understand that I am not exaggerating here. As someone of the Reformed variety, I have seen far more incorrect assertions about Reformed Theology/Calvinism in the two articles I was pointed to than I’ve ever encountered elsewhere. I would totally understand if you just don’t agree with the theology. Many people disagree. But there is nothing to be disagreed upon because we are not even talking about the same thing. Your understanding of Reformed Theology is a perversion of Reformed Theology. Something we can actually both agree to hate.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    MJH

    >> “Many Calvinists believe that Jesus has already come back in a spiritual Second Coming and is now ruling from heaven…”

    Actually those would be Calvinists who believe in AMILLENNIALISM. >> http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/09/23/john-calvin-believed-in-amillennialism-as-do-the-roman-catholic-church/

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    College kids feeling passion for conference

    By Steve Almasy, CNN

    The Passion conference is more than just a huge gathering of college-age kids, organizers say. the recent Atlanta conference was a call for the next generation to make Jesus a focal point in their lives and to share that passion with others, they said.

    “Church was never meant to be an island of self-indulgence, but a missional community of Jesus-followers so in love with Him that they can do nothing else but carry His name to the world,” pastor Louie Giglio said in an e-mail this week.

    The event drew more than 22,000 students to the Georgia capital’s convention center and to Philips Arena. It was even more successful than Giglio had hoped for.

    “It is truly inspiring to see a generation that is so hungry for an authentic encounter with Jesus … one that exchanges consumer-driven Christ for Christ-centered obedience,” said Giglio.

    One of the main spots at the conference, a convention floor full of booths for 10 carefully selected charities that the Passion movement works with throughout the year. The call went out to the college kids to spend time at the exhibits and find one that moved them.

    On a Monday night, the third of a four-day event, thousands of kids dressed in t-shirts and jeans weaved their way through the exhibits. They took brochures and enthusiastically chatted as volunteers explained what each cause was about.

    The stereotype is that college kids never have much money, but these kids dug deep. Some even brought in containers filled with money they had raised or saved.

    Some donated what little money they had, some brought material goods, many gave from there hearts, officials said. Every charitable goal was surpassed, not by a little but by a lot.

    The goal was to raise $500,000 for the charities, but after the conference, Do Something Now, the fundraising campaign of the Passion Conferences, announced that it had raised $1.1 million for Compassion International, Hope International, Haiti Transformed, International Justice Mission, Bibles Unbound, World Made Flesh, Joint Aid Management, Cure International, Living Water International, and the Atlanta Mission and City of Refuge (kids brought socks and towels for the homeless).

    Giglio says it is compelling to see 18- to 22-year-olds giving to the causes that matter most.

    “The fact that 22,000 university-aged young people would journey to Atlanta and gather for the name of Jesus is staggering in and of itself,” he wrote. “But the fact that, as a result of His grace in their lives, they would pool their resources to the tune of $1.1 million to fund 10 local and global causes signifies a massive shift.”

    Students got to hear from pastor John Piper, who returned from an eight-month leave of absence, Francis Chan, and Beth Moore. The students sat intently, many taking notes, writing down the references to scripture passages. Afterward, they left, so moved barely a word was uttered.

    They also were treated to warm up music from Chris Tomlin and his fellow artists on the sixstepsrecords label. The resulting live album (yet to be titled) will be released March 8. Last year’s CD went to No. 1 on the Christian charts and featured the radio single “Our God.”

    A second Passion event is scheduled for April 1 in Fort Worth, Texas. Tickets are still available, a spokesperson said. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/11/college-kids-feeling-passion-for-conference/

    ———————

    Students got to hear from John Piper who was out during those 8 months making best friends with Rick Warren who is NOW doing this: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/01/12/rick-warren-a-new-age-prescription-for-your-health/ WARNING!!!

  • MJH

    [EDITED BY DTW: MJH – If you want to call me a slanderer because I speak the truth that John Piper and Rick Warren are friends and it started before, during and now after his 8 month leave – then please, do me a small favour and try your hardest NOT to comment here again. ok? No really. I’m not joking. Thanks]

  • Burning Lamp

    MJH, you insist on complicating the issue. Wonder why? Do you believe in TULIP? That is the emebodiment of Calvinism and you refuse to address those very simple tenets of Calvinism. TULI is all LIES from the pit of hell and P is based on the false premise of the others. If you want to believe in that, that is your choice, but you delude yourself by doing so. Apparently you are not willing to get down to the nitty-gritty of the basics of Calvinist/Reformed belief. You prefer to stay lost in the fog and smoke and mirrors.

    If you would care to have a civil discussion based on TULIP I am sure that Deborah would welcome it, but she is right not to entertain rhetoric that confuses and insults.

  • onesimus

    Good to find another voice exposing the dangers of Calvinism.

    Bless you
    Tim

  • onesimus

    In addition to my earlier comment – while it is good to warn about the things that are wrong, be aware that discernment is perhaps more about highlighting what is RIGHT.

    It is LIGHT that pentrates the darkness. It is not enough to merely say how dark it is.

    Tim

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Onesimus

    You link to Andrew Strom (false teacher) and Voice of the Martys (False teachers) on your website – exposing Calvinism is the least of your worries my friend as you have severe NAR influences in your camp.

  • Burning Lamp

    Tim, you are right that there is value in solid Bible teaching. That is a separate issue from discerning. We are to test the spirits to be sure they are of God. That is what discerners do.This is not a Bible study site. If you think about what you are suggesting, it is rather impossible. If something conflicts with the Word, it is false. As Bereans we are to know the Word.

    It is VERY important to point out pitfalls and dangerous paths. Oftentimes truth is mixed in with error and calls for calling out the error. By calling out error, what remains is truth. However, any mixture of the two is to be avoided as the truth is tainted by the error mixed in.

    Like Debs says, you need to take a look at what you are promoting to be sure it is doctrinally sound.

  • Deborah,

    In your off-hand dismissal of me you show you don’t have an ounce of discernment. You merely criticize and accuse without the benefit of light and you do so from ignorance.
    I have been part of Andrew Strom’s websites for many years and have not held back from pointing out when I’ve believed he (and others on his site) have been wrong. But I have done that by pointing out what is RIGHT – not merely throwing out accusations from a distance.

    Burning Lamp,
    I know very well what “discerners do – I am personally very familiar with the Holy Spirit’s gift of discernment of spirits. I am also familiar with its counterfeit which is fault finding without pointing to truth.

    I know very well what I am promoting – I promote the Lord Jesus Christ and I do so according to His revelation by His Spirit through His word.

    Maybe reading the CONTENT of my blog rather than judging by links in a side bar you might be able to make more informed judgments.

  • A

    Although I agree with some of the postings you have. I have to disagree on others based on the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the Scriptures and the fruits of the Spirit in my life, as we are to live by Him & worship in Spirit & in truth & walk in faith & after the Spirit. Also the word of God tells us clearly how to test the spirits & that there are gifts of the Spirit which must be used in line with our faith. The Spirit of God does speak through us or else we wouldn’t cry out Abba, Father. Rom. 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. I am glad to realize that the Spirit intercedes for us in ways we can’t comprehend & that only the Father knows the mind of the Spirit whom intercedes for us! I am happy to find that God loves me more than I could ever imagine! I have to thank God for your website bc it has caused me to look closely @ my personal relationship with the Lord & with those I encounter along the way. I find myself studying the word of God in search for the truth. It has only given me a firmer faith in the Lord, knowing that He truly is beyond what I can grasp! Jesus loves me! I understand that we all have our own personal relationship with the Lord & we have to constantly be considering as to whether or not we are doing His Will & giving Him the glory. Are we or are we not producing fruit in the choices we make, if it’s according to His Will then we should be producing good fruit. Having said all this  I leave you with these scriptures:  Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Ecclesiastes 7:16 Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise–why destroy yourself?
    Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
    Romans 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
    Romans 12:6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
    Romans 12:16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
    Romans 15:15 I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me
    1 Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.
    1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
    1 Corinthians 7:17 Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.
    1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them–yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
    2 Corinthians 10:13 We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the field God has assigned to us, a field that reaches even to you.
    Galatians 2:9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
    Ephesians 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power.
    Ephesians 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.
    Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
    1 Peter 4:11 If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    onesimus

    bla bla bla spoken like a true NAR

    BL

    You should read his blog instead of just look at the links, it’s worse.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    A

    That’s fantastic, but I have NO IDEA what you are speaking about and what it has to do with this topic – NEW CALVINISM!
    In another article under Kobus van Rensburg, you placed 1 verse, in the hopes to do what I do not know – Did you go and read my reply to it?

  • [deleted] I don’t have time to listen to you tell me how bad I am, and then tell me how much you love Andrew Strom. He is false. Deal with it.

  • Deborah said::
    BL, You should read his blog instead of just look at the links, it’s worse.”

    Burning Lamp you are MOST welcome to visit my blog to see whether Deborah’s accusations are true or not.

    Bless you
    Tim

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Oh BL will, don’t worry :)

  • Truthfirst

    What’s wrong with drinking wine? This should NOT be a principled issue issue for mature Christians. Only if a friend would be an (ex) alcoholic would one abstain in his/her absence as to not tempt him/her.And of course there is no justification for drunkenness!Neither should baptism be so divisive that it leads to condemnation. I fully support infant baptism on biblical grounds but this is not a deal (salvation) breaker. What IS though is ecumenism. Some of the above writers have been rather legalistic in their doctrine (wine, baptism)but seem to subsequently overlook the danger of and abhorrence God shows for being unevenly yoked,which is exactly what ecumenism, and worse: interfaith efforts (e.g. Chrislam) is/are. Let’s not get too worked up about Calvinism. The real danger these days for the Bride of Christ are those vociferously attacking conservative Christian doctrine, part of which overlaps with Calvinism. It’s the Rick Warren’s and Bill Hybels of this world and their Emerging Church we have to be aware of, and their potential to lead millions and millions astray!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Truthfirst

    So you are a Calvinist against ecumenism (which is Roman Catholic) yet Calvinism is actually a branch of the RCC. Me thinks you need to take a long hard look at the doctrine you follow before you start pointing your grubby fingers at others. You are just as good as someone who follows Ecumenism. And infant Baptism is Roman Catholic and drinking Alcohol will lead to an addiction sooner rather than later (ESPECIALLY if you are not a genuine biblical Christian – and the Holy Spirit is not in your life guiding you and CHASTISING you and keeping you on the narrow path)

  • Abe

    Calvinism is from Augustine, who was a catholic. That alone makes calvinism of all persuasions, false.

    Who told anyone to “reform” catholicism anyway? Catholicism is false on virtually all things it teaches. And calvinism is false and is only a few steps away from catholicism, and “new calvinism” is a step closer back to catholicism.

    The better answer is to get completely away from catholicism, and stick with the Bible only.

  • Sharon

    This is pathetic at best. Satan has repackage old heresy in new wrappings.

    According to Time Magazine ‘New Calvinism’ is the third biggest idea that is changing the world right now. Here are some thoughts on new versus old Calvinism.

    Four Ways ‘New Calvinism’ is So Powerful:

    1. Old Calvinism was fundamental or liberal and separated from or syncretized with culture.

    New Calvinism is missional and seeks to create and redeem culture.

    My comments: When did Jesus tell us to go change/redeem culture? We are to be witnesses for Him. New Calvinism is “missional?” Since when has anything in Calvinism been concerned with missions? Why bother wasting your breath, resources and time on those who most likely are “non-elect?”

    2.Old Calvinism fled from the cities.

    New Calvinism is flooding into cities.

    My Comment: No it wasn’t “Old Calvinism” that fled from the cities. It was the non-Calvinists that had to flee from the cities or be burned and/or beheaded. New-Calvinism is flooding into the cities? Yes, the cities are more and more becoming the dwelling place of those who because of poverty cannot get out into the suburbs. The cities are infested with crime, drugs and filth. New Calvinism should fit right in as they meet up with folks that have been victimized by other people as well.

    3.Old Calvinism was cessationistic and fearful of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit.
    New Calvinism is continuationist and joyful in the presence and power of the Holy Spirit.

    My Comment: Old Calvinism was fearful, I agree with that. They were fearful of the Holy Spirit because He, the Holy Spirit could lead them into all truth. What would have become of John Calvin should he lose his power-base? It was a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living John Calvin. They were fearful of the very Holy Spirit that would live in them forever if they knew Jesus as Savior. New Calvinism is joyful? Is any form of Calvinism joyful? I think not.

    4. Old Calvinism was fearful and suspicious of other Christians and burned bridges.
    New Calvinism loves all Christians and builds bridges between them.

    My Comment: No it was not bridges that were burned. It was God fearing, blood bought, born again Anabaptist Christians that were burned. New Calvinism loves all Christians? Loving Christians is not the problem though Calvinism is not an example of Godly love. Jesus said we are to love our enemies. John Calvin burned his enemies. Even consented to a 14 year old girl being beheaded for hitting her parent. Now that is love… …right?

    New Calvinism will deceive and damn souls just like the Old Calvinism has done and continues to do. New Calvinism will sound awesome to a young generation because it will appeal to them as something new, refreshing and exciting. New, refreshing, exciting….that’s what the road to hell is paved with.

    I am fired up and fed up with Calvinism! Calvin and Augustine for too long have defamed our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. They have denied the God who loves and is love. They have blasphemed God by turning the glorious truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and relegated it to man made heresy. Augustine lived over 1,200 years before Calvin and Calvin has been in hell for over 500 years now and look at the destruction they are still causing. Filthy Catholicism. No wonder the Whore Belief System is the Woman that Rides the Beast in the Revelation.

    Even so…come Lord Jesus!

  • Sharon

    “Infant Baptism” is not biblical. Open your Bible and find one scripture that says that we should have our babies baptized. There are none. Yes Baptist is a major issue because there are cults like the Great Whore, the Roman Catholic system that started this blasphemy. Then it got passed on to Lutheranism because Martin Luther “reformed” nothing within the catholic system. Here in America the “Church of Christ” (which they are not) believe that you MUST be baptized to be saved. That is a heresy from Rome as well. IF baptism could save us then Jesus Christ would not have had to go to the cross to atone for the sins of all mankind. Baptism has nothing to do with our Salvation. There is no water pure enough to “wash away our sins.” Baptism is the first act of obedience after we’re saved. What about the thief on the cross that got saved? Did he come down and be baptized? No, because it has nothing to do with salvation.

    As far as drinking alcohol. I personally do not drink any alcohol. Never have and not planning on starting. It is not the last drink someone just had that makes them an alcoholic, it was the very first drink they ever had.

    Peace, His peace to you. That peace is only
    found in Jesus Christ, not in baptism.

    Truthfirst wrote:

    What’s wrong with drinking wine? This should NOT be a principled issue issue for mature Christians. Only if a friend would be an (ex) alcoholic would one abstain in his/her absence as to not tempt him/her.And of course there is no justification for drunkenness!Neither should baptism be so divisive that it leads to condemnation. I fully support infant baptism on biblical grounds but this is not a deal (salvation) breaker. What IS though is ecumenism. Some of the above writers have been rather legalistic in their doctrine (wine, baptism)but seem to subsequently overlook the danger of and abhorrence God shows for being unevenly yoked,which is exactly what ecumenism, and worse: interfaith efforts (e.g. Chrislam) is/are. Let’s not get too worked up about Calvinism. The real danger these days for the Bride of Christ are those vociferously attacking conservative Christian doctrine, part of which overlaps with Calvinism. It’s the Rick Warren’s and Bill Hybels of this world and their Emerging Church we have to be aware of, and their potential to lead millions and millions astray!!!

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New Calvinism - Catching a Gullible Generation

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