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The Positive and The Negative of a One World Religion

The Positive and The Negative of a One World Religion

The Christ - one world religion

The Positive and The Negative of a One World Religion

They tell you its all good, they tell you it’s all about peace, love and joy.  They tell you the message they are spreading is one of change, transformation.  We have to under no uncertain terms create peace on earth – no uncertain terms.  We need to save the earth, because we as a human race are going to be living in this world for a long, long time.  And we can’t continue fighting amongst each other.  The main culprit for all the conflict is religion.  And the only way to fix this problem is to merge all the major faiths together.   But they had to find the central common denominator of each religion to be able to unite them together.  It’s Christ.

They say that the Christians await their Christ, Jews are still awaiting the Messiah, Hindus are anticipating the coming of Krishna, Muslims are expecting the Imam Mahdi and Buddhists await the Fifth (Maitreya) Buddha.  They say all these ‘Christ’s’ are actually one and the same.  Therefore ALL religions lead to the same God – So what are we fighting about?

Roman Catholicism and a One World Religion

Besides the multiple horrendus problems with the above so called brilliant concept there is one BIG factor that needs to be taken into consideration.  The Christians they speak of here are Roman Catholics who are not genuine Christians.  Their Christ is the Eucharist Christ who is permanently nailed to a cross, never coming off and being sacrificed repeatedly, the mother is Mary or Isis (Goddess of Fertility) and their God is Mithra the Sun God.   The born again Christians await Jesus Christ the Son of God – The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.   So technically yes, the Roman Catholics do await their Christ which is the same Christ as all other religions out there – EXCEPT truly born again Christians….

The genuine Christian’s Saviour is Jesus Christ the Son of God, King of Kings as written in the Bible and IS NOT the same Christ we are called to accept by the ‘new’ one world religion that is taking over this earth (or should I say has already overtaken the earth).  We are told we are in a New Age, a New Dawn, everything is Emerging and merging.  We are told that we can turn this world around.  If we come together as one global community we can make this change.  There will be peace, love and joy.  We need to understand that we are all connected.  We are brothers and sisters.  If one is suffering then we are all suffering.  If Africa is suffering then it’s a ‘measuring stick’ that the rest of the world is not in good shape.

Sharing IS all a One World Religion needs

We need to share.  But it’s not about sharing the truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ as per what is written in the Word of God.  It’s not about saving souls for Jesus Christ anymore; it’s now ALL about sharing and giving to your brother and your sister.  We need to show love and compassion by doing good works; feeding the poor, giving blankets to all who are cold, provide housing to everyone that they may have a roof over their heads, dig wells to provide water and stop emitting carbon so as to reverse climate change.  We have to do this, because this is our world, our ‘mother’ earth.

But we can’t do this on our own, we need help.  Help from The Christ himself.  We do this through contemplative spirituality.  The message of salvation where you need to repent of your own individual sin and accept Jesus Christ the Son of God by believing that He died for us, that our souls will be saved thereby receiving eternal life no longer applies.   There is also no such thing as sin anymore, and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ which wholly includes the message of repentance of sin is now completely taboo.

This Christ comes bearing gifts for all;  knowledge, health, love, peace, joy, food, water, education, a message of hope for mankind.  A message that we can be higher than what we think we are.  We can achieve so much more than we think.  This message however is now where to be found in the Bible, unless of course you take the Word of God and twist what it says for your own ideologies.

Instead the new gospel is a one pager on how to connect with the Christ inside you.  It will tell you how to go about choosing a place where you feel content and a place where you will achieve silence.  The choosing of a mantra or sound etc., that you will repeat over and over again which will allow you to enter into a trace, the posture you will sit in so as to allow maximum energy flow between the charkas, a technique on how to breath efficiently and how to clear your mind of all thoughts, especially negative ones  – you will never be able to hear God if you are thinking, walk a labyrinth, stop thinking!

This will help you in your quest to join a One World Religion:

  • Transcend the world  (transcend human/physical boundaries and move to a higher spiritual level)
  • Experience more happiness in your life
  • Recognize the divinity within all people  (you will be able to recognize The Christ in other people – They say you will be able to recognise ‘Jesus’  in other people)
  • Remember your divine nature (meditation will help you remember that you are not really human but have a divine nature, god-like)
  • Use the business of the world to awaken (you will use earthly things and ideas to help awaken humanity to their destiny of being gods and having the power to create a Kingdom of God on earth)
  • Develop more consistency with your spiritual practices (once you connect with your inner god-self (the god in you) you will find yourself reaching higher levels of spirituality much easier with less effort.)
  • See the world through God’s eyes (you will see the world through ‘Gods’ eyes because you youself are a god)
  • Understand the connection between being and creation (You will understand that the earth, animals, plants and humans are all connected and if one of them is suffering then mankind as a whole is suffering)
  • Fulfill your life’s purpose (you life’s purpose is to help create the Kingdom of God on earth and rule as a god, you can be a king in your kingdom)
  • Experience your divine innocence (being a god means that there is no such thing as sin, for a god can’t sin.  You are therefore innocent and free)
  • Recognize your holiness  (you are holy because you are a god)
  • Discover your divine gifts (gods always come with divine gifts;  healing, compassion, love, etc.,)
  • Uncover your heart’s desire  (you will find that your heart’s desire will be entirely focused on peace and building the Kingdom of God on earth)
  • See the presence of God in all things (God is all, and all is in God – pantheism, panentheism)
  • Experience Oneness (you are a god, you are one with the universe – cosmic Elohim.  Note this ‘Elohim’ is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob)
  • Live heaven on earth (instead of being evacuated from earth as the Word of God speaks about constantly, you no longer need to believe this because earth will become your domain.  You will rule the earth as a god.)
  • Strengthen your creativity (become very creative at finding clever ways to network (using the businesses of the world) so as to help spread the message and teach employers and their staff the techniques of finding inner peace)
  • Let go of unnecessary rules on your spiritual path (let go the Word of God, throw it away for the Bible is completely unnecessary.  But you will take on the Golden Rule:  Positive connotation – do to others what you would like to be done to you, Negative connotation – do not do to others what you would not like to be done to you)
  • Develop more consistently with your meditation practice (again, the more you practice the more you get closer to hearing the voice of God. So the more you practice the more you will transform and reach higher levels of enlightenment,  like climbing a ladder.)
  • Experience Enlightenment [1] (all of the above, you progress in levels, until you reach the ultimate enlightenment, ultimate illumination)

Instead of preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ we are to now to make friends with everyone and drink coffee until we are bouncing off the walls. We need to build relationships because that’s what Christ did; well that’s what the One World Religion-ers tell us.  They tell us Jesus went around building relationships.  He debated, He never rebuked anyone.  He never once asked anyone to repent of their sin.  He never once got angry and turned over the tables in the temple.  In fact there was so much love going around that they were not even sure he was crucified and if he was crucified is was not anything as bad as the Bible makes it out to be.  Some Emergent (New Age teachers) even say that Jesus’ body was eaten by dogs.  Some say that Jesus was an illegitimate child, Mary was a whore and was raped by Roman soldiers – as Jesus grew up he could not explain the fact that he did not have a father so made up a story that his father was God.

The blasphemy, the absolute disgusting, evil words that spews out of people’s mouths.

They mock and insult Jesus Christ, our King of All Kings, our Lord and Saviour, the God who will bring JUDGEMENT on mankind for their wickedness.  The people of this world will gather at Armageddon in an attempt to try show God what they are supposedly made of, but in the process are wiped out so quickly they won’t even know what hit them.

The One World Religion followers just can’t understand why we (genuine Christians) don’t want to attend their gatherings and bowling evenings.  When we don’t accept the invitations we are told we are being negative, and negativity is just not a good thing.  Negativity breeds hostility.

So my question is:  What do you call HOSTILITY towards the One and Only Living God who sent His ONLY begotten Son to save the world? 

It’s laughable! 

A One World Religion and it’s positives and negatives

 

It’s only positive when the One World Religion followers say it’s positive.  Otherwise it’s negative.  Insulting Jesus Christ is considered positive.

Positivity as per the New Age dictionary = love all who follow a message other than the Word of God.  Reject Biblical teaching thereby denying Jesus Christ.
 
Negativity as per the New Age dictionary = those who cause division instead of unity and follow the Word of God and refuse to deny Jesus Christ 

James 4:4

4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.


Resources:

[1] http://www.thevoiceforlove.com
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142 comments to The Positive and The Negative of a One World Religion

  • The defense of some sort of ‘Truth’ over and above the well-being of people is a common (and damaging) aspect of traditional Christianity. The emerging movement should be lauded for thinking outside this box.

  • Discerning The World

    Kevin

    >> The defense of some sort of ‘Truth’ over and above the well-being of people is a common (and damaging) aspect of traditional Christianity.

    You mean Roman Catholocism.

    >> The emerging movement should be lauded for thinking outside this box.

    Lauded? You chose a very interesting word when it comes to the the emerging movement. The Emergent Church needs to be praised and glorified? Will be be forced to worship them soon? Sounds like the Roman Catholic church that insist on being praised, glorified and worshipped as God.

    Besides, did you actually read this article, were I speak about the difference between genuine Christianity and Roman Catholocism? I am hoping you come back and read this comment, because it’s short it might help you read what I say in it’s entirety:

    Who murdered, tortured, imprisoned people over the centuries because they refused to accept the Mother Church’s truth? Well Kev, you don’t even know what you are following! The same people who damaged and twisted the truth and murdered people in the name of GOD, yes their God, not MY GOD.

    It’s all a big joke…everything has been reversed and twisted to make bible beleiving Christians out to be the murderers. Pffff… what are you going to say to yourself one day when you are purifying the earth of those who refuse your so called truth that actually doesn’t exist (lol). Will you be laughing at those who are being beaten, tortured and imprisoned? Or will you stand there and think to yourself, “WHAT AM I DOING????’

    The Emergent Church is part of the Roman Catholic Church who are NOTHING BUT HATERS of the TRUTH, but used the word truth to KILL.

    And this is what the One World Religion is going to do…and you seem soooo chuffed with yourself to be part of the coming massacre.

    Congratulations Kevin…what a star you are.

  • Amanda

    The defense of some sort of ‘Truth’ over and above the well-being of people is a common (and damaging) aspect of traditional Christianity.

    Unless, off course, it is THE Truth. Other than that you are absolutely right. Nobody should cause so much fuss about some sort of truth.

  • Discerning The World

    Kev

    >> and I still don’t see how you logically link the emerging movement with murder.

    Where did I say that? Maybe you should read what I said…a 4th time.

    But I suppose at the end of the day it’s negative for me to say that the Emergent church is LINKED with Rome and the Roman Catholic church were the cause of all inquisitions, and persecutions of people who wanted to RETURN to real biblical truth and not a fake one. etc.

    Fact (which means truth by the way): The Pope apologised in 2003 for all the murder and atrocoties they caused for the last 2000 years. Not that I am sure he can apologise, because he thinks he is God…but I suppose when you are a god you can do anything and saying anything you want.

    Is it positive for Emergents to say that Christians are the cause of the entire worlds problems?

    >> That’s two positive scores on my books for them :-)

    Only two?

  • Discerning The World

    >> I’ve never heard an emergent ever make a claim to some form of absolute truth

    I’ve never heard them make this claim either. Of course, there is no absolute truth for Emergents, that is why the Bible needs to be discarded.

    Thanks for helping to establish that truth LOL.

  • >> The Emergent Church is the Roman Catholic Church who are NOTHING BUT HATERS of the TRUTH, but used the word truth to KILL.

    I’ve read the above article three times, and I still don’t see how you logically link the emerging movement with murder. Am I right that this is what you are claiming? That the emerging movement kills? My experience with emergents (I’m not one, by the way) is that they are extremely tolerant to opposing views, ideas and cultures. I would think that tolerance would discourage rather than encourage violence.

    >> Unless, off course, it is THE Truth.

    And I guess you are the one who knows what is the TRUTH. Does this mean that all the millions of people (non-‘true Christians’, that is) who have lived (and are living) are wrong? Funnily enough, I’ve never heard an emergent ever make a claim to some form of absolute truth. Not only are the emergents tolerant, but they are humble, too. That’s two positive scores on my books for them :-)

  • Amanda

    And I guess you are the one who knows what is the TRUTH.

    Yes. It is revealed in the Word of God for everyone:

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
    (Joh 3:16-18)

    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    (Joh 14:6)

    Kevin:
    .

    Does this mean that all the millions of people (non-’true Christians’, that is) who have lived (and are living) are wrong?

    Very, very wrong.

    Funnily enough, I’ve never heard an emergent ever make a claim to some form of absolute truth.

    Except: there is no absolute truth? Including that statement? Oh, don’t be fooled. They only deny the absolute truth of the Bible and replace it with their writings, which they surely expect their readers to accept as the truth.

    Not only are the emergents tolerant, but they are humble, too.

    They are extremely tolerant of a lot of things except Christianity. You think it is humble to say we don’t have the Gospel right yet? You think it is humble to replace the Gospel with their own imaginations?

  • … and then it ended in a novel again.

    Well said.

  • Discerning The World

    Shame, was it too long for you to read? Awwww…. but you read Emergent Fiction? The positive of Emegent Fiction, but the Negative of genuine Christians stating fact.

    Of couse you know I used the word novel in the sense of the length…but then…again, that’s all you could find wrong with what I wrote.

    You agree that ALL the above Christs are one and the same then? I mean, you don’t argue such a bold statment like that? Surely as a ‘Christian’ you would stand up and say, ‘ never, my God is not the same at other religions God’.

    But then you are friends with Nic and co who believe in Emergent teaching that all religions lead to the same God…

  • Amanda

    And he is involved with Prof. Stephan Joubert’s echurch. His reslolution:

    I want to move closer to God and want to move with God in fulfilling His purposes for the church. I will do this through all means currently at my disposal. I will investigate new ways of experiencing God where He can transform me to what He intended me to be from the start.

  • Discerning The World

    Kev if you are searching for the truth who Jesus Christ really is, then you will hear what the Holy Spirit is telling you. If I gave you a box of Lindt chocolate with the above article, would you have agreed? Hmm…I will leave that to your heart to decide. I don’t save people Kevin. Jesus does the saving. And the Emergent church with all their hugs and respect towards you is not going t save you either.

    Christ-like characteristics is to warn people that their eternal life is in danger and preach salvation through Jesus Christ who died for you that you may be saved. But only if you accept Him as your Saviour and believe in the Word of God! And that means all of it in it’s entirity, not just here and there. Do you not think it’s important to warn people of pending doom? What do you consider love then?

    You speak about me showing love and respect. I respect and love you enough to speak the truth so that you don’t land up in a situation where you wished you had listened to the warnings which are as clear as daylight.

    I’ve always wondered why people have a nervous breakdown when you tell then that if they don’t get on their knees and humble themselves before God with genuine repentance of sin you will not receive eternal life but perish in everlasting darkness. I mean, if hell does not exist, why get so upset about something that’s not real. It’s going to become a hate crime to say this you know. People are already being take to court in Britian for this. And I am not saying you are having a nervous breakdown, just me ‘thinking’ here.

  • Discerning The World

    Oh btw, have you read my About My Blog page? You have no idea what I have been through since last year… and back then I treaded so lightly with my comments in fear that I might offend someone’s heart, until it hit me hard that it’s not about how I said it. It made no difference how I said it…I was still threatened, and spiritually bound and cursed and called the most terrible names.

    However I must say being called a Bastard is a new one…re- my new article: Born Again Christians are Now Compared to Inquisitors of the Inquisitions –

  • I’m in danger of misrepresenting the emerging movement here (in fact, I might have already), because, as I said before, I’m not an emergent myself. So I won’t continue defending the movement on this forum.

    But what I would like to do is provide some constructive criticism (if I may) of the way the writers on this blog have been responding to those who have commented here. I’ve seen quite a few people trying to engage with you regarding your posts, and the general response (from what I’ve seen so far) has been one of disrespect, intermingled with some degree of sarcasm. Where do the Fruits of the Spirit come in here?

    I’m not speaking as a Christian of any sort, but a person who is outside of the faith. I’m an unbeliever, so to speak, and when I came across your blog I read for a while and thought: if this is how ‘genuine Christians’ treat those who disagree with them, then I don’t want to be part of their club. The emergents I’ve interacted with have exhibited the utmost respect towards me, despite the fact I’m not a Christian. If it ever came to pass that I would ever consider Christianity, I would choose the emergening movement, simply because they seem (and again, this is from my own point of view) to exhibit the Christ-like characteristics of humbleness and respect.

    Thanks for letting me comment on your blog.

    Kevin

  • Kevin,

    Thank you for being honest and open.

    May God’s goodness and mercy follow you.
    Eugene

  • Deborah,

    What Kevin said made me think of how Paul admonished us to act toward outsiders in Colossians

    Colossians 4:5Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

    and of Jesus words that we should love one another and by that all will know that we are his disciples.

    In the light of this I want to apologize for my comment (#3) on this thread. While I do not agree with everything you write or the conclusions you come to it is no reason for me to be sarcastic and therefore I ask you to forgive me.

  • Discerning The World

    May Kevin come to know the real Jesus Christ of the scriptures and not the New Age DIY all-in-one Christ

  • Amanda,
    thank you for taking the time to visit my blog. I am not as a prolific writer as some but I trust that you found some encouragement there (even if it was only how to make a cappuccino :) ).

    I want to ask you to provide a link next time you quote me so that people can get an idea of the context of the quote. I’m writing this comment from my cell phone so I can’t copy and paste the link but anyone interested can find that quote in the article about the Learning Community of echurch and Missionet on my blog: http://eugeneroberts.wordpress.com

  • Kevin
    It can get pretty confusing to get involved with matters of religion, and christianity is no exception. As an ex-Christian (Atheist?) you know this.

    The Matthew Fox believes that the persepective of “panentheism” – God is IN all, all is In God, is the one which will endure. In fact, he states it is preferable to be an atheist than a “theist”. Without unpacking it further here, that’s how I see it.

    Thank you for being open, and engaging us – us mashup of humans who are still trying to follow the way of Jesus.

    I know there will be those who will disagree, but as I see it now, to quote an age old adage, “God is a circle whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere.”

    I want you to know that the carrot and stick – the promise of heaven and the threat of hell – is not the only way of seeing the gospel.

    Ultimately, this God is a God of Grace, whose mercy endures forever. I’ve been following the teachings of Jesus for 30 years, and they have never been as alive as they are for me now, in this grace-imbued postmodern era.

  • Discerning The World

    Oh awesome…Nic
    You know it’s sooooooooooooo nice (really, it’s very nice) when false teachers come and explain what they really mean and help to back up what I have been saying for the last 100+ comments.

    Took a while for you too to be completely honest….well done…I do applaud you.

    **********
    Now Kevin,

    I ask you to go and read what I have said to these people, and then you go and read what they have said to me and who speaks a double message. I have kept my message exaclty the same. I have not change it. One minute agreeing and then next minute on the same issue disagreeing. But if you are an ex-Christian (are you or are you not?) then technically you should know the basics of scripture. But to help you a bit. There is only ONE God, there is only ONE bible, there is only ONE way to get into the presence of God and that is through Jesus Christ His Son who died for you, that you can come before God through repentance of Sin. There is only ONE true faith that being what the Word of God says (the un-twisted version). There is only ONE Gospel, and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You can NOT have multiple religions all believing DIFFERNT things and then claiming they all speak the same message. 2+2 = 4 not 5 or 3.

    And Kevin please go watch that video I posted, here is the link. The message of the Bible is very very different to what Nic and friends are speaking….very very different. But at the end of the say, you need to choose. No one can make this vital choice for you. If you are listening to what God is saying to you then listen. You have free will – God gave that to manking for a reason. He wants to know who is going to stand for Him until the very end, vs those who sit on the fence, are luke warm and choose other idols and gods are the Creator of this Universe.

    Nic says: Matthew Fox believes that the persepective of “panentheism” – God is IN all, all is In God, is the one which will endure.

    — Panentheism: All (pan) is in God, yet God is transcendent over everything. (Notice the difference between panentheism and pantheism). Some would assume that as everything in the universe (positioned in God) evolves, this unbiblical God would also evolve and grow in knowledge and complextity.
    — Pantheism: Everything is God and God is all. Since God is everything and everything is God, everything is sacred and interconnected.

    Nic says: In fact, he states it is preferable to be an atheist than a “theist”.

    — Atheism: Denies the existence of any God, thought it is traditionally focused on the rejection of the Biblical God.
    — Theism: Belief that “God” exists. His identity is open to interpretation and to the breadth of the human imagination..

    That’s Emergent for you. Man is now a god, you worship creation, instead of the Creator. What a cheek. So they deny Jesus Christ by asking God to bow down to HIS creation. This is exactly why satan was kicked out of heaven in the first place.

    You worship the Creator not the creation.
    **********

    Nic this is for you too; you can thank Iggy for this: REPEAT OF PREVIOUS BIBLE SCRIPRUTE: 1 Timothy 6:1, 3-5, 11-12, 20-21

  • Deborah,
    You asked me some questions. In my answer I will refer to the people participating in the Emergent Conversation as Emergents. Please understand that Emergent is not a denomination with a set of doctrinal statements but rather a collection of Christians who are drawn together by their desire to be worthy disciples of Jesus Christ and their love for one another. While there are a lot of common believes between emergents there are also a lot of difference, however, our love for one another is bigger than these differences. In my answers I will try to stick to the commonly held views.

    You asked:

    that’s all you could find wrong with what I wrote.

    Ok, I’ll tell you a few places of disagreement. If I wrote down everything it would be a post of novel length and I won’t hi-jack your blog for that.

    In the post you seem to hint that the emergents believe the same things as New Agers and other world religions which are not true. So, to quote you:

    We need to share. But it’s not about sharing the truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ as per what is written in the Word of God. It’s not about saving souls for Jesus Christ anymore; it’s now ALL about saving lives on earth. We need to show love and compassion by doing good works; feeding the poor, giving blankets to all who are cold, provide housing to everyone that they may have a roof over their heads, dig wells to provide water and stop emitting carbon so as to reverse climate change. We have to do this, because this is our world, our earth.

    I don’t know where you get it from that emergents deny that salvation of the individual is by Jesus Christ alone or that we should not share the Gospel but that is just not true. What emergents do say is that there has been an over emphasis on this at the cost of the need of communities. Jesus himself said that we must not turn a blind eye to the need of others. When He talked about judgement He said in Matthew 25:34-40

    “Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink? When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me.”

    And James gives us his perspective in James 1:27

    “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.”

    Emergents hold the whole of Scripture as authoritive, even those commands by God from the very beginning that has been grossly neglected by modern Christianity and in specific the command to take care of our environment Genesis 1:28 and 2:15.

    And no the earth is not ours…
    1Co 10:26 “for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness of it.” and so we have to take care of it. With as much enthusiasm as being obedient to all of God’s commands.

    You said:

    But we can’t do this on our own, we need help.

    You are right we can’t but as Scripture says:

    Isa 40:31 but those who wait on Jehovah shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint.

    That is what centering prayer is – waiting on the Lord, resting in His power. It is NOT some way to achieve godly status. Though there might be outward similarities to Eastern meditation it is totally different in practice and goal. If you are really interested to know what centering prayer is and how it works, stop reading what Lighthouse Trails says about it and ask those who have experienced it.

    As for sin… There was one sacrifice that is sufficient to forgive us all our trespasses. Emergents still sin but when we do we know that we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 John 2:1) So, do emergents say that:

    There is also no such thing as sin anymore,

    NO, THEY DO NOT!

    My dear sister, you totally misrepresent Christians from the Emergent Conversation. You create a caricature of it and then attack that. To offer critique is one thing (and definitely not a bad thing) but then make sure you understand what those people believe and say whom you critique before you do.

    I will pray for you that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what is the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this world, but also in the coming age. (Eph. 1:17-21) Please do the same for me.

  • Amanda

    Please understand that Emergent is not a denomination with a set of doctrinal statements but rather a collection of Christians who are drawn together by their desire to be worthy disciples of Jesus Christ and their love for one another.

    Agreed. Emergents = way of life. Christianity = doctrine. Emergents have one law: love your neighbour as you love yourself. Christians are free from the Law.

    If I wrote down everything it would be a post of novel length and I won’t hi-jack your blog for that.

    Yes, Christians and emergents disagree. Why is this still an issue? After all, the emergents are emerging from Christianity. Why should fundamentalists not point out what is happening? Why are the emergents so coy here about what they are doing? Christians are breaking your law by discerning the heretical teaching that they were supposed to lovingly overlook like you do.

    I don’t know where you get it from that emergents deny that salvation of the individual is by Jesus Christ alone or that we should not share the Gospel but that is just not true.

    What you call gospel is in fact Law. Love your neighbour as you love yourself. So then, is the good Muslim saved or not?

    What emergents do say is that there has been an over emphasis on this at the cost of the need of communities.

    You resonate with Maitreya. You will love the guy.

    “Then the King shall say to those on His right hand,

    How do goats turn into sheep? By Law or by Gospel? Will the Jew who has done good works go to heaven or will the German soldier who believe the Gospel?

    Emergents hold the whole of Scripture as authoritive

    No, they don’t. They only hold to those parts that suit their social agenda, which is a camouflage for their goal to destroy Christianity and move to higher things.

    even those commands by God from the very beginning that has been grossly neglected by modern Christianity

    Proof that modern Christianity grossly neglected God’s commands.

    Though there might be outward similarities to Eastern meditation it is totally different in practice and goal.

    What is your mantra?

    stop reading what Lighthouse Trails says about it and …

    read what Jesus Christ said?

    …ask those who have experienced it.

    Oh, dear.

    NO, THEY DO NOT!

    But they do redefine it, don’t they?

    My dear sister, you totally misrepresent Christians from the Emergent Conversation. You create a caricature of it and then attack that. To offer critique is one thing (and definitely not a bad thing) but then make sure you understand what those people believe and say whom you critique before you do.

    Emergents do not get to make law for those who hold to the fundamentals of the faith. And how can somebody who is under the Law be a brother? You proclaim your righteousness attained by keeping your law. Christians do not:

    Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith–
    (Phi 3:8-9)

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    All we ask is that you double check the teaching you are following. Desmond Tutu at Amahoro said you need silence to hear the God though contemplative prayer, and there are many ways of meditation all leading to the same result somehow we have to hear God’s voice and this is emergents teach. Repeating mantras is just one of them. Which I am glad you do not do, for you do not need to do rituals to hear the voice of God. The Holy Spirit that abides in you is a gentle whisper and He leads you into all truth and what is the truth, it’s the unchanged, untwisted Words of God in the bible. Jesus is the Word, if they insist on trying to changing the Word of God they in fact are trying to change who Jesus Christ IS.

    I do not for one second agree with anything thing that Iggy said. And I never lumped you into the same category as him as much as he said I did, he went and attributed what I said to him to you.

    These are a list of Emergent teachers. Go and read what they have to say slowly and understand through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that abides in you what they are ‘really’ saying and it’s not what you think it is or what Emergents would love you to believe.

    McKnight, Richard Forster, Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet, Rick Warren, Nelus Niemand, Stephan Joubert, Rob Bell, Thomas Bandy, Bob Buford, Ken Blanchard, Martin Buber, Tony Campolo, Chuck Colson, Mark Driscoll, Peter Drucker, Eddie Gibbs, Tony Jones, Dan Kimball, Thomas Keating, Erwin McManus, Thomas Merton, Donald Miller, Henri Nouwen, Doug Pagitt, Robert Webber

    Is is possible you have already read some of their writings and agree with people? You have the ineternet at your disposal, it’s very easy to go and search for these peoples books, order them and research exactly what they are saying, or better yet, other people out there who love Jesus with all their heart have done and hard work and read these books and taken quotes out for you which are in most cases horrific and deny Jesus Christ. I will make a list of their quotes later. You need to make a decision. You either follow these people’s teaching or you follow God’s teaching.

    All we ask is that you test what you are following, just as all born again christians are commanded to my the Word of God. Test everything to His word. If it does not tie up then there is something wrong. If someone says they have new knowledge and can add to what the Bible has to say then there is something wrong, if someone says one can take away from the scriptures then there is something wrong, if someone changes what the Bible actually teaches by taking a verse here and there and using it out of context to promote a new theology then there is something wrong.

    It’s you choice at the end of the day to what teaching you choose to follow. Just like it’s our choice to choose the teaching we want to follow and no man has the right to hurt any one physically because they choose to follow another faith – and no this does NOT mean that all faiths are correct. All it means is that we are comissioned by Jesus to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If people want to hear the truth they will hear it, otherwise they wont and that is their choice. Judgement is God’s only.

    Born again Christians as per the article Steve wrote and I posted with my writings has gone and lumped you (?, this question mark is there, because I don’t know your heart, only God does) and all other born again Christians into the same category of Roman Catholics who worship Mary the goddess of Fertility presented as an Idol and their God is Mathea the Sun God. Genuine Christians are not murders and if you are happy to be lumped into this category then I dunno…there is something wrong.

    See here on the 5 False Christs of the major religions in this sinful world of ours. If you have not read this already: The Positive and The Negative of a One World Religion: Oh wait you did reply and you still somehow managed to skip over this part…hmmm. Oh well…

    And you are right works does not make us righteous, there is nothing we can do that can make us pleasing or look good before God. Genuine born again fruit is Holy Spirit inspired. When you are born again you do not want to hurt someone, you care, you love, and you have conviction by the Holy Spirit in your life when you do something that does not represent Jesus Christ (like false works that come packaged with Jesus name) etc. Unbelievers do the exact same things too, they love, they feed the poor, they adopt children from Africa.

    You can only distinguish unrighteous works from Holy Spirit inspired work by comparing if the message preached lines up to the Bible. If it does not the fruit is not good fruit and not of Jesus Christ.

  • Discerning The World

    I’m tired of this… I can’t make myself more clearer. You have the Word of God, go read it.

    Stop making excuses for false teaching by trying to justify it. Emergent ‘Leaders’ have said the most terrible things about Jesus Christ and you WANT to agree with them. Go ahead…really… I however choose to Love Jesus Christ and will never accept these teachings as long as I am alive on this earth.

    >> Nic said; “Matthew Fox believes that the persepective of “panentheism” – God is IN all, all is In God, is the one which will endure. In fact, he states it is preferable to be an atheist than a “theist”.

    The wrong definition by either Nic making a typo or Matthew Fox getting is wrong is not my problem…

    And I gave a clear definition of panentheism/pantehism under the thread of comments 17:

    — Panentheism: All (pan) is in God, yet God is transcendent over everything. (Notice the difference between panentheism and pantheism). Some would assume that as everything in the universe (positioned in God) evolves, this unbiblical God would also evolve and grow in knowledge and complexity.
    — Pantheism: Everything is God and God is all. Since God is everything and everything is God, everything is sacred and interconnected.

  • Amanda,
    I think we will argue in circles of “no, we don’t” and “yes, you do” and I am not up for that. I have no desire to just win an argument. I see you and Deborah as fellow believers, not because I think all faiths lead to God but because you believe in the salvation brought to us by Jesus Christ as you quoted it in Phil 3:8-9. Works can never lead to righteousness but faith without the resulting works is no faith at all.

    James 2:14-17 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and if one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them those things which are needful to the body, what good is it? Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself.

    Works does not make us righteous, but because we have been made righteous(by Jesus Christ) we do the good works God has prepared for us out of obedience.

    Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

    What is your mantra?

    I don’t have one and I don’t need one to be still and know that He is God (Ps. 46:10).

    May God’s goodness and mercy follow you today and may His grace and peace keep you.

  • I’m tired of this… I can’t make myself more clearer. You have the Word of God, go read it.

    Deborah, I feel the same.

    I already do what you asked:

    All we ask is that you double check the teaching you are following.

    I don’t have a problem if you critique what certain emergents (or anybody for that matter) write and say but please represent what they write and say truthfully and not your interpretation of it and then assign that to all emergents. You did not like how Steve represented you (though I think you misinterpreted him) I and Iggy, Nic, Cobus, etc. don’t like to be misrepresented as well.

    As I said in my other comment I will pray for you.

    May God’s favour be with you.

  • Discerning The World

    Nic:

    You said: The way you are dealing with my comments, the absolute willful misinterpretation of my freely offered thoughts, the stubborn refusal to converse, your gleeful burning down of your own straw man arguments, the ongoing infantile sarcasm, the complete lack of credit given to anyone who you disgree with, your deeply flawed misunderstanding of philosophy and theology, and your rote bible bashing, is to me, a travesty of Christian witness.

    ** Ahh I guess that Iggy asking ‘God’ to do His will if necessary and blind me is something you consider to be good? But it’s cool Nic, you stick to what you think is good fruit, and I’ll stick to the Word of God. And see, I did credit Iggy, even though I disagree with him. Iggy said: “If so I ask God to do as He will be it blind you completely or open your eyes so you can see the damage you are doing.” comment 18.

    You said: I’m trying to believe the best, but at the moment, I’m just not seeing the Jesus you boast about being so in love with in these words.

    ** Well I can clearly see the ‘Christ’ you boast off and believe me it’s not my Lord and Saviour, King of all Kings, Only Son of God who died as a sacrifice, washed clean by His Blood for those be believe in Him. This is why you can’t see ‘your’ New Age Christ in me, for he is not in me. But I do have JESUS CHRIST IN ME the one you deny.

    And the only thing irritating me now is this constant use of the word ‘straw man’.

    Now run along and go have coffee with your emerging buddies so you can contemplate what your next plan for world domination will be as you try to erdicate capitalism and replace it with slavery. And that was not sarcastic, because that is exactly what socialsim is which is what the New Religion is going to be and is implementing right now.

  • Chad

    Wow. So capitalism is the Christian way, huh? Where do you get that from the Bible you claim to be so true to?

    I have posted a few comments and won’t say anything more here until I see those up. Not gonna waste my time if you are only deleting my remarks.

  • Deborah
    The way you are dealing with my comments, the absolute willful misinterpretation of my freely offered thoughts, the stubborn refusal to converse, your gleeful burning down of your own straw man arguments, the ongoing infantile sarcasm, the complete lack of credit given to anyone who you disgree with, your deeply flawed misunderstanding of philosophy and theology, and your rote bible bashing, is to me, a travesty of Christian witness.

    I’m trying, Deborah, to find the God in all this, I’m trying to believe the best, but at the moment, I’m just not seeing the Jesus you boast about being so in love with in these words.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: Wow. So capitalism is the Christian way, huh? Where do you get that from the Bible…

    Um…we are born into a sinful world??? Nothing mankind has produced is godly and neither will the coming One World Religion.

    But please, please do let us know soon when you find socialism in the Bible. All born again Christians wait in baited breath for this NEW knowledge.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    READ the ‘About this Blog’ page to understand how commenting on this blog work. And if you are gonna come in here making ‘trickster’ comments then don’t waste my time either.

  • Chad

    First off, I said nothing about socialism. Like any system, all are fallen. However, you said this:
    Now run along and go have coffee with your emerging buddies so you can contemplate what your next plan for world domination will be as you try to erdicate capitalism and replace it with slavery.

    You seem to think that capitalism is the way of Christ since you appear to pit it against socialism, which you mock as “slavery.” As far as which “system” is more true to the Biblical witness I would argue socialism trumps American capitalism. Read up about the year of Jubilee and the Sacred Portion and the Fields of the fatherless in Israel’s day. And of course you know how the early church sold their belongings and held “everything in common.” That may not be socialism but it certainly is not capitalism.

    All this to say: Just because someone is not a raging capitalist does not make them an enemy of God. It might actually make them more a friend than you seem to realize.

    peace.
    Chad

  • Chad

    I did read it. And I said nothing that should have warranted your deletion of my comments. And I have no idea what you mean by “trickster.” Of course, it is very convenient for you to label me as such when you will not post what I wrote. So much for transparency, huh?

  • Chad

    For the record, I am sorry to hear about the threats you received last year which required you to close your blog. Hatred and callous words should be avoided at all times by those who profess to follow Jesus, the Servant of all and the one who told us to “love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” I think it goes without saying that your comments to others, whether you perceive them to be “genuine” Christians or not, are quite arrogant and lack the humility and love of the Savior you profess to follow. Prophetic speech is necessary and sorely lacking in the Church today but it must never come off as arrogant, mocking or condescending. You will never accomplish the task you feel God has given you but merely sound like a “clanging gong” if you do not walk in love. And please, do not change the definition of “love” to suit your own rhetoric. That only serves you and does violence to the biblical witness of love (love is this: laying down one’s life for another).

    Lastly, while I sympathize with your plight of threats and hate mail, please do not compare that to the suffering and persecution of Paul. Paul was imprisoned and tortured because he dared to announce to the world that the one whom Rome had killed was actually alive and well and is the true Lord of heaven and earth, not Caesar. That is why he was in prison, for confessing Christ a Lord. Not because he was an arrogant, pompous ass who offended everyone around him. And just so you know, emergent Christians confess the same thing: Jesus is Lord. You have more in common with them/us than you may care to admit.

    peace.
    Chad Holtz

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: And I said nothing that should have warranted your deletion of my comments….Of course, it is very convenient for you to label me as such when you will not post what I wrote….So much for transparency, huh?

    I NEVER DELETED YOU COMMENTS. They have all been approved by me. Trickster = Liar

    I have updated my About this Blog page to include people who lie!!!

    [Edited: Regarding supposed 2 deleted comments: 2009/07/02 at 3:49pm

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: Lastly, while I sympathize with your plight of threats and hate mail, please do not compare that to the suffering and persecution of Paul.

    This pathetic lying comment of yours regarding my About This Blog Page: NO WHERE, EVER did I EVER say something like this, NEVER would I ever even INSINUATE this, EVER.
    But I have updated my About this Blog page, just for liars like you and your friends from the Emergent movement who have come onto my blog like raging bulls.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: just so you know, emergent Christians confess the same thing: Jesus is Lord. You have more in common with them/us than you may care to admit.

    You wish. I do not confess Jesus is Lord and then write comments and articles where I mock, insult and ridicule Jesus by reducing Jesus Christ onto the level of man – like Emergents do.

  • Chad

    You mock Jesus with your arrogance and complete lack of humility. I see no heart in any of your responses – only disdain and hatred. That is very sad.

    Where do emergents “mock, insults, [or] ridicule” Jesus Christ? Can you give one example?

    Thanks.

  • Chad

    I am many things but I am not a liar. And you do not know me well enough to make such a judgment.

    If I misread your comments and posts than forgive me. However, I was sure you wrote that you rejoice in your suffering for the gospel’s sake, referencing your hate email and death threats as your “persecution.”

    In any event, you deny that your suffering is in the same vein as Paul’s? If so, great! We are in agreement then.

  • Chad

    Why not just tell me what you mean by calling me a “trickster”? I stand by everything I write. There were 2 comments I made yesterday that have not been posted. If they are, please direct me to them. I don’t see them.

    Thanks in advance.

    Chad Holtz
    United Methodist Pastor

    (hint: I signed one of them in that way)

  • Discerning The World

    If I did, then apologies. Re-post, I am sure you can remember what you said.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: You mock Jesus with your arrogance and complete lack of humility. I see no heart in any of your responses – only disdain and hatred. That is very sad.

    Speak for yourself.

  • Chad

    One of the comments was in the “God Does Not Exist, Man Does” post. I even have the email confirming that I wished to receive notifications of follow up comments which contains the name of that post. I just looked and do not see my comment there.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: However, I was sure you wrote that you rejoice in your suffering for the gospel’s sake, referencing your hate email and death threats as your “persecution.”

    Liar, no I did not.

    You said: In any event, you deny that your suffering is in the same vein as Paul’s? If so, great! We are in agreement then.

    Trickster = Liar

  • Chad

    How about an apology for calling me a “trickster” and a “liar”?

    Shall I send you the 2 emails I got confirming that I did comment and yet those comments are not there?

    [PLEASE DO SEND THOSE 2 EMAILS CHAD. BUT YOU CAN’T BECAUSE YOU ARE A LIAR. MY BLOG DOES NOT SEND CONFIRMATIONS. IF YOU SIGN UP TO RECEIVE COMMENTS YOU WILL ONLY RECEIVE THE AUTHORS COMMENTS ND NOT YOUR OWN]

    Busted!

    [Edited: Regarding supposed 2 deleted comments: 2009/07/02 at 3:49pm

  • Chad

    Again, I am not a liar. A liar is someone who knows what the truth is and yet speaks the opposite. Even after I apologize if I have misrepresented your views you call me a “liar.”

    How do you justify this behavior as “genuinely Chrisitan”? I really am curious.

  • Amanda

    Eugene, Nic Paton found DTW guilty of breaking THE LAW. Again.

    …a travesty of Christian witness. I’m trying, Deborah, to find the God in all this, I’m trying to believe the best, but at the moment, I’m just not seeing the Jesus you boast about being so in love with in these words.

    But when he says things like the following, the emergents like Roger, applaud him:

    The Holy Trickster
    “So I rejoice at the presence of the Trickster in a barren land of closed thought, for quite apart from being the bringer of death and destruction, he in fact is a catalyst for life and salvation. I now look at Jesus as embodying (amongst all things divine) this trickster, as well.”
    “But I am coming to see the Trickster no so much as a threat, but a gift. In fact, I see him as quite central to the core christian truth of incarnation, as well as central to all creativity.”
    “I suggest that this is where the trickster comes to assist us. His realm includes ambiguity, irony, and play, incompleteness and chaos, holding in tension and suspending belief, generosity and cruelty, imagination, flexibility and cunning shifting of shape, the boundaries between life and death, and making connections where they are not supposed to be.”

    Your assurance to Christians that the hard working emergents are really lovable fundamentalists at heart, rings hollow when one reads their actual words. Are you sure you want to portray centering prayers as being still and knowing that God is God?

    Centering Prayer Guidelines

    I. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God’s presence and action within. (Open Mind, Open Heart, Thomas Keating)
    1. The sacred word expresses our intention to consent to God’s presence and action within.
    2. The sacred word is chosen during a brief period of prayer to the Holy Spirit. Use a word of one or two syllables, such as: God, Jesus, Abba, Father, Mother, Mary, Amen. Other possibilities include: Love, Listen, Peace,Mercy, Let Go, Silence, Stillness, Faith, Trust.
    3. Instead of a sacred word, a simple inward glance toward the Divine Presence, or noticing one’s breath may be more suitable for some persons. The same guidelines apply to these symbols as to the sacred word.

    Come on, Eugene. That information is freely available. I think you are playing a game where you try to get sheep to cuddle up to wolves.

  • Amanda

    Here is Rob Bell presenting the Good News in Christianity Today:

    How would you present this gospel on Twitter?

    I would say that history is headed somewhere. The thousands of little ways in which you are tempted to believe that hope might actually be a legitimate response to the insanity of the world actually can be trusted. And the Christian story is that a tomb is empty, and a movement has actually begun that has been present in a sense all along in creation. And all those times when your cynicism was at odds with an impulse within you that said that this little thing might be about something bigger—those tiny little slivers may in fact be connected to something really, really big.

    That ‘gospel’ cannot save anybody. Now that may be emergent, but it is not Christian. Eugene adviced me to ask and not to assume. I have asked an no emergent has answered yet, so may I ask you? Will a good Muslim go to heaven? Are all saved (universalism)?

  • Discerning The World

    No Nic, it’s got nothing to do with you. I hit over 100,000 hits in 6 months last year. Gods make sure His message and warnings get out loud and clear.

  • Hi Chad
    Thanks for entering the conversation here; it’s a bit like meeting an old friend in a WW I trench.

    Let me affirm with you in the face of every kind of insult, misrepresentation, and twisted braid of logic, that Jesus Christ is in fact Lord. That you, myself, Deborah, Amanda, and everyone reading this are all either part of or becoming part of one family – the family of God.

    I’m in a Evangelistic mood. Halleleujah!

  • Deborah
    I must congratulate you on how well your marketing strategy is working. You must be growing at 1000 hits per day – that’s waaaay better than I have ever done on blogs.

  • Amanda

    Your blog is linked to your name.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    >> How about an apology for calling me a “trickster” and a “liar”?

    No, because this is not why I called you this. You are a trickster because you appear ‘sweet, loving, caring with so many good fruit intentions’ but you are not that at all.

    Regarding your comments I might have accidentally deleted. I told you to repost them. You hold me accountable for accidentally deleting your posts? Shame, sad, sad, you. You come on here all high and mighty with your weak arguments detracting from the topic of the article that Steve (your friend) who insinuated that born again Christian thinking will lead to Inquisitions of the past but all you can complain about is me deleting a post or two. If I deleted it purposefully I would have edited it and said so!

    Thank goodness you are not in control of Home Affairs.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    Then re-post it!

    I repeat *NEON LIGHTS* RE-POST IT! *NEON LIGHTS*

    Oh wait you can’t repost it because there never were these comments to begin with.

    [Edited: Regarding supposed 2 deleted comments: 2009/07/02 at 3:49pm

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: How do you justify this behavior as “genuinely Chrisitan”? I really am curious.

    What, you mean your behaviour? Where you agree with your New Age friends, and their New Age teaching and their New Age One World Religius beliefs?? How do you justify this ‘Chrisitan behaviour’. Yes…I am curious!

    You said: A liar is someone who knows what the truth is and yet speaks the opposite.

    Yes you know who you are

  • Chad

    Amanda,
    I’m assuming you are asking me about this.

    First, what is it about the Rob Bell quote that you disagree with? Which part, particularly, and why? Do you disagree that the tomb is empty? Do you disagree that history is moving somewhere? Do you disagree that God is actively engaged with God’s world in a myriad of ways to bring about the salvation of all of God’s creation? Which part is unnerving to you?

    Thanks.
    Chad

  • Chad

    Actually, you give plenty of fodder to complain about.
    I don’t really care about the posts you deleted. Thank you for finally admitting that you may have deleted them. It would have been nice to have at least heard an, “I’m sorry.” Perhaps I am asking far too much.

    You say:
    You are a trickster because you appear ’sweet, loving, caring with so many good fruit intentions’ but you are not that at all.

    On what grounds do you make such an accusation? Honestly. Do you KNOW me? Have you ever attended the church I pastor? Have we ever sat down to a meal together? Ever shared Eucharist together? Please. How on God’s good earth can you make such a judgment call without the slightest clue what you are speaking of?

    I have been nothing but cordial towards you and have even attempted to find common ground among us. You seem determined to divide and conquer. Friend, that is not the way of Jesus. I hope you will reconsider your motives and responses to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ (heck, even to people you consider pagans. You should at least be charitable if you really live what you profess to believe).

    I invite you to read with me 2 Cor. 5:18-19. The entire chapter, really, It is an awesome picture of what God has done (and is doing) through the person and work of Jesus Christ and now through us. We have been reconciled to God, Paul says, and because of this our mandate is to be “ministers of reconciliation.” Do you know what reconciliation means? it means to help others coexist in harmony and in peace. It is about restoring relationships, not tearing them down. This is our task as Christians, Deborah (if that is your name). I am not here to make an enemy of you or to be named your enemy. I’m here hoping to strike a chord of peace and charity. You can mock the emergent ethos of inclusivity and peace and hope and love, but when you do so you are mocking the very spirit and ministry of Christ and the ministry of all Christians everywhere, regardless of stripe.

    Deborah, can you honestly say you are a minister of reconciliation?

    grace and peace,
    Chad

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    There is no such thing as reconcilliation between people who follow after new age teaching and server another Christ and those who obey the Word of God, dottng i’s and crosing t’s and serve Jesus Christ the Son of God.
    Jesus spoke that in the last says there will be a great apostasy (a falling away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ) to another gospel, another Chirst. This ‘imitation’ Christ is the Man Of Lawlessness.
    God and Satan can never reconcile. Neither can God’s children reconcile with people who love wickednesss.

    Satan the Trickster – Embracing the Emerging Snake:

  • Chad

    Deborah,
    Even if what you said were true (which it is not) you are attacking the wrong people. Scripture also shows us that it is only by the Spirit of God that one can profess and proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord. The people you rail again, while you may disagree with them on some doctrinal issues (which is fine) are not anti-Christ. They are Christians. You are segregating a subset of God’s Church which you obviously do not fully understand, making judgment upon them and then determining you have no need to love or reconcile with them since YOU have named them your enemy.

    But on the other hand, I disagree with you that we are not to be ministers of reconciliation towards any and ALL, regardless of creed. Romans 5, Paul tells us that Christ died for us NOT when we were acceptable and making proper mental assents to the proper doctrines but he died for us WHILE we were weak, WHILE we were sinners, WHILE we were even ENEMIES of God’s. Thus proving God’s love towards us. It is in this same spirit that Paul calls us, those who follow the risen Lord, to be ministers of reconciliation.

    You do not get to name who your enemies are and then treat them with contempt and disdain. Not if you call yourself Christian.

    So again I ask you: Deborah, do you consider yourself a minister of reconciliation? Yes or no?

    peace,
    Chad

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    We are called to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so that people will be born again of God’s Holy Spirit that we will receive eternal life!

    Repeat: There is no such thing as reconcilliation between people who follow after new age teaching and server another Christ and those who obey the Word of God, dottng i’s and crosing t’s and serve Jesus Christ the Son of God.
    Jesus spoke that in the last says there will be a great apostasy (a falling away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ) to another gospel, another Chirst. This ‘imitation’ Christ is the Man Of Lawlessness.
    God and Satan can never reconcile. Neither can God’s children reconcile with people who love wickednesss.

  • Discerning The World

    Amanda:

    >> I think you are playing a game where you try to get sheep to cuddle up to wolves.

    Yip that did indeed cross my mind twice actually…but since his last response it’s kinda a permanent memory now.

  • Discerning The World

    Yeah, I am one major outlaw as far as the EMGT’s are concerned. Soon I really will have a WANTED sign up for me.

  • Chad

    Do you deny that we are called to be ministers of reconciliation?

    One last time: Do you consider yourself a minister of reconciliation?

    By the way, where in this:

    We are called to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so that people will be born again of God’s Holy Spirit that we will receive eternal life!

    ….do you get the mandate to draw lines in the sand, declare people your enemies, judge people’s salvation, call into question peoples motives, tell other pastors and lay people in Christ’s church that they are liars whom you do not even know, speak with arrogance, condescension and pride? How is that preaching the GOOD NEWS that Jesus is Lord? Yes, we are to proclaim this truth. But we are to do so in love and we are to be ESPECIALLY loving and charitable towards those we perceive to be lost. We are called to be ministers of reconciliation. Again, do you know what that word means? It is about peace and friendships, not conflict and enemies. You seem to be severely mistaken about our role as Christians.

    Are you a minister of reconciliation as Paul commands us to be in 2 Cor 6? Yes or no?

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    I’m going to sleep….good bye.

  • Chad

    Rest well.

    When you should get this perhaps you will see fit to answer the simple question.

    I might add that while we are to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, as you rightly point out, we are also called to be ministers of reconciliation. Scripture is the bedrock of truth, right? It is our source for truth, yes? If it ain’t all true than none of it’s true, amen? So you cannot discount Paul’s words in 2 Cor. 6 nor hold them as less important than anything else. It’s ALL equally authoritative from Genesis to Revelation, isn’t it?

    Here are a few other commands that are as equally authoritative:

    Be humble.
    Love mercy.
    The meek shall inherit the earth.
    Love your enemies
    Pray for those who persecute you.
    God gives grace to the humble
    Seek righteousness, seek humility
    Clothe yourselves with humility
    Care for orphans and widows
    For even sinners love only those who love them
    Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
    ABOVE ALL, clothe yourselves with love.
    Provoke one another to love and good deeds (what are you provoking people to?)

    Deborah, are you a minister of reconciliation?

    grace and peace,
    Chad

  • Discerning The World

    2 Corinthians 5:11-21

    11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
    12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
    13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you.
    14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
    15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
    16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
    17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
    18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
    19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
    20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
    21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    Chad

    We are called to preach the Word of God as we try desperately to persuade men, but their consciences are following after wickedness. We don’t commend ourselves for our gain, but for our Lord Jesus Christ who saved. Jesus’ love compels us to preach the gospel with all long suffering, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. That the people of this world are dead if they do no not believe in Jesus Christ who died that the people of this world may be saved. But many do not want to know Him. They choose another ‘Christ’ instead. When one is born again we no longer view anything from a worldly perspective, because we are now a new creation a child of God and no longer of this world, our old nature of sin is gone as we no longer want to partake of this world’s wickedness and false doctrines, doctrine of demons.

    Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, the truth that people may be saved though God’s Holy Spirit, All this because God reconciled us to Him through His Son Jesus Christ who we believed in, that he did for our sin, washed clean by His Blood that we may be presented before God spotless. We come before Jesus Christ and earnestly repented of the sin in our lives, that we may be saved. We preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ (salvation), the gospel of Reconciliation (salvation) that people may come to accept Jesus Christ and be reconciled to God.

    Unless one believes and accepts Jesus Christ into their lives, there will never be reconciliation between themselves and God, because they deny His Son. They will remain in their wickedness and sin which is death. But those who come to believe the truth stated in the Word of God and nothing but the Truth as stated in the Word, who repent of their sin and are born again are reconciled to God and therefore now go out and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that other souls may be saved.

    When we are genuine Christians we now become God’s Ambassadors and we proclaim the Gospel loud and clear to all who want to hear. We warn, exhort, we teach, we rebuke.
    There is no such thing as reconciliation between people who follow after false teaching and server another ‘Christ’ and those who obey the Word of God completely and serve Jesus Christ the Son of God. We preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone. BUT few will accept His message for Jesus Christ who was born sinless, walked this earth sinless and died sinless and was resurrected sinless who sits as the right hand of the Father, King of Kings, Lord of Lords is HATED by this sinful wicked world.

    This is the verse Iggy tried to desperately to back up his Emergent ideas. As you will see this goes nicely with the above, where Paul tells Timothy to stay away, run away, flee from men who preach another gospel to what Jesus Christ commanded.

    1 Timothy 6:1, 3-5, 11-12, 20-21
    1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
    3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
    4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
    5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

    11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.
    12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
    20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
    21 which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.

    A letter from Paul to Timothy. Timothy was having a bit of a problem with people who refused to listen to the Gospel of Jesus; who want to create their treasures on earth. In doing so, these people were slandering the name of God.

    Paul then tells Timothy that if anyone teaches false doctrine and does not agree with sound doctrine and Godly teaching as Jesus Christ COMMANDED; then these people are conceited and understand nothing – this means the Word of God, hence they use little verses here and there to mislead people with their evil plans.

    Paul says that corrupt men, who refuse the sound instruction of Jesus Christ to preach genuine teaching, are only interested in controversies and quarrels about ‘words’ that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction. Paul says that these men who refuse sound teaching have NOT Truth in them and think that godliness is when you try to produce good works on earth (which means nothing). They think that trying to create ‘heaven on earth’ makes them special and godly.

    Paul then tells Timothy to run away from these people, FLEE THEM, and pursue those who are righteous, who have godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness for they are truly born again of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells Timothy however to NOT STOP FIGHTING the GOOD FIGHT (good fruit) of DEFENGING the FAITH (the true gospel of Jesus Christ – good news).

    Timothy is instructed to hold fast onto Jesus’ promise of eternal life when Timothy made a public confession that by accepting Jesus as his Saviour he will hold fast onto the truth and proclaim it at ALL COSTS. But at the same time, STAY AWAY from wicked people who refuse to hear the Truth. (Eternal life is not on this earth, but in Heaven, and this earth WILL not become HEAVEN. Emergent’s along with every other movement/religion out there are trying to create God’s Kingdom on earth (man’s kingdom) which is useless and ungodly)

    Paul tells Timothy to take care of the instructions that Jesus Christ entrusted to him. To not find himself ensnared in godless chatter with people who OPPOSE the Word of God. Who come along with NEW knowledge that is completely false (like good fruit that is actually bad fruit). Timothy (and ALL genuine Christians today) are NOT to try build relationships with those who are no longer following the gospel of Jesus Christ, but have wondered off the track and now follow new teaching/false teaching, which sounds biblical, but it not.

    ****
    The Word of God tells born again Christians to not engage in godless chatter with people who refuse to accept the truth. In fact we are not to engage with people who oppose the Word of God in any way. This includes those who quote verses from the bible as they try desperately to back up their NEW AGE, NEW Emergent knowledge and accept ideas from all religions around the world as well as being compatible to the Bible –which GOD also COMMANDS you NOT to do- because if you do, you deny Him. By agreeing with other faiths as being acceptable you agree that other gods are also acceptable. And God clearly states that you shall worship no other god’s but HIM.

    Jesus spoke that in the last says there will be a great apostasy (a falling away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ) to another gospel, another Christ. This ‘imitation’ Christ is the Man Of Lawlessness.

    “Jesus says, when He returns shall He even find faith left on this earth” That’s Jesus’ words. Not mine. You better make sure you are in the minority, which is what the TRUTH, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being reduced too through Emergent ideals and the creation of a One World Religion.

    Now Chad, go be a minister of reconcilliation to Nic. He really needs it as he is “delving into such shadowy arts.”

  • Chad

    Still waiting to hear an answer to a simple question.

    Deborah, do you consider yourself a minister of reconciliation? Yes or no?

  • Chad

    Deborah,
    Throughout history Christians have always agreed that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to be saved. They have, however, disagreed on exactly HOW that salvation takes place. The common denominator through us all, however, is that we all place our trust in a Jew named Jesus who lived, died and rose again and took away the sins of the world, reconciling us to God. People who confess this truth and put their trust in this Jesus, the Son of God who so loved the world that he sent his son so that all who believe in him may not perish but have eternal life, are your brothers and sisters in Christ. They are Christians.

    Now, I know for a fact that Nic, Eugene, and every emergent I have met will affirm what I just wrote 100%. These same people all hold the Bible as God’s holy word and view it as authoritative in their life for all matters of faith and practice. It is a story that has changed our lives, as I assume it has yours.

    Where it is fair game to disagree is with HOW Christ’s death and resurrection actually makes salvation possible.

    The NT was written in a time when the threat to the faith were “false teachers” who didn’t disagree on doctrine but disagreed that God actually came in the flesh, died and rose from the dead physically, returning to the right hand of the Father. Paul warns the church to be careful of letting such teachers into their midst. Flee them. And yes, we should pursue people who as you say:
    ” who are righteous, who have godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness for they are truly born again of the Holy Spirit.”

    Deborah, may I ask how it is your show godliness, love, and gentleness? If I may be honest I have seen very little if any of that in your posts. You write with much hatred, pride and arrogance but very little love and gentleness.

    But we are not to pursue such people at the exclusion of everyone else. I mean, if you really want to take this literally than Paul is saying we should only hang out with other Christians. How would anyone ever know the Good News if this were so? Jesus called us to go into ALL the world. Jesus ate with sinners, whores and tax collectors. Jesus told us to love our enemies, not lambast them with blogs and slander and prideful, arrogant insults. You sound almost gleeful that the people you write against will burn in hell. This is not a heart filled with grace.

    As for this comment:
    Eternal life is not on this earth, but in Heaven, and this earth WILL not become HEAVEN. Emergent’s along with every other movement/religion out there are trying to create God’s Kingdom on earth (man’s kingdom) which is useless and ungodly)

    I disagree and so does most of Christiandom throughout history. Deborah, when you pray, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is in heaven” what are you praying? Paul says that ALL of creation is groaning for redemption. This world is not to be tossed aside but is and will be fully remade and renewed.

    After Paul tells us that God, through Jesus, is reconciling EVERYTHING back to God, Paul says this AMAZING thing:

    “AS WE WORK TOGETHER WIHT HIM, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain.” 2 Cor. 6:1

    Did you catch that? We are co-workers with God! Because of Jesus and the Holy Spirit working in and through us we are called to be God’s agents on earth, Christ’s hands and feet, working to bring about restoration, reconciliation, peace, salvation. We work to make the prayer, “thy kingdom come” a reality in our midst. Our task is to bring a slice of heaven (which is the rule of God) to the hell around us.

    Salvation is not some distant treat to be waited for after we die. Paul says in the same letter, “See, NOW is the acceptable time; see, NOW is the day of salvation!” (2 Cor. 6:2). Salvation is TODAY!

    Emergent Christians are genuine. They desire to be ministers of reconciliation as we are COMMANDED to be as disciples of Christ. We desire to announce the Good News that Jesus has made this possible and that we are now God’s co-workers, prayerfully working together as the body of Christ, the church, in helping to see the will of God on earth as it is in heaven.

    We ask with Micah what does the Lord require? To do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God. Deborah, are you walking humbly? Do you love justice and mercy?

    So again, I have to ask: Do you see yourself as a minister of reconciliation?

    grace and peace,
    Chad

  • Chad

    “It’s not about saving souls for Jesus Christ anymore; it’s now ALL about saving lives on earth.”

    Among many flaws in your logic and theological reasoning and understanding of emergents, this quote above is perhaps your biggest.

    Where do you get the idea from scripture or otherwise that the gospel is all about just saving “souls”? What is SO ironic about your arguments is that you decry anything that to you is New Age or outside the purviews of Scripture and yet you loudly and happily announce a Platonic gospel, and probably don’t even realize you are doing so. Just know this: When you talk about saving souls over bodies, the spirit over matter, escaping this world to another, you are a disciple of Plato, not Jesus or Paul or any of the writers of scripture.

  • Amanda, (Every time I type your name that Boston song plays in my head – Just a little humour…)

    Like I said in a previous comment I’m done arguing as I feel that we will continue going in circles so I will just state a few things.

    Nic is a friend and a brother in Christ to me. He openly confesses Jesus Christ (who walked this earth, died and rose again) as Lord and that’s enough for me to accept him as a brother. Some of the things he writes I do not fully understand and haven’t decided if I agree with or not. When I do disagree I will tell him so and why but I will not break fellowship him over a few disagreements. Further I will not broad stroke him, Chad, Iggy, you or Deborah with any other people and by GBA (guilt by association) decide anyone is not a real Christian. That is for God to decide for I cannot look into any heart. When a brother or sister writes or does something I disagree with I will challenge them in love (I have done that with Chad) but never decide on their status with God so don’t expect that of me.

    As for centering prayer. I know that at first glance the methods might resemble Eastern meditation. I know I’ll do a horrible job explaining it so I won’t try. A book I found very helpful explaining the history, goal and method is “Gebed van die Hart” by William Nicol. For me it is helpful to just be quiet in the presence of God. I do not use it to enter in some trance or become a little god or something. I love God and I want to spend time with Him. Centering prayer also does not replace or is more important than any other spiritual practice in my life like Bible study, prayer, worship and others.

    As for me being a wolf in sheep clothing… If you think so ignore me then.

    May God’s goodness and mercy stalk you and His loving grace surprise you when you least expect it today.

  • Jesus Heals

    I meditate on the Word of God. What is meditation?

    Meditate: to engage in contemplation or REFLECTION, to focus one’s thoughts on: reflect or ponder over. to PLAN or project in the mind.

    Lets take a look at 2 Timothy 2:7- REFLECT on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this.

    Psalms 19:14-May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

    Joshua 1:8-Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.

    Psalms 48:9-Within your temple, O God, we meditate on your unfailing love.

    Psalms 77:12- I will meditate on all your works and consider all your mighty deeds.

    Psalms 119:148-My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on your promises.

    Psalms 104:34-May my meditation be pleasing to him, as I rejoice in the LORD.

    Biblical meditation isn’t emptying our mind before God and waiting for Him to speak. True biblical meditation is studying, thinking, pondering, reflecting, imagining HIS WORD. Alot of Christians are afraid of meditation, but if its done with the Word of God and the Holy Spirit theres nothing spooky or scary. If I dont intently study and think on the Word of God how can I myself be impacted the Word. There’s a huge difference between Christian meditation and Eastern meditation. To meditate on something is to plan something. If you want to start a business you first must plan, think, meditate, ponder, upon the idea and all aspects of your business.
    I like to read the Bible as I would a novel. I like to use my God-given imagination. If I’m reading about Moses parting the Red Sea I dont want to just read about that, I want to put myself in Moses’ situation in my mind and spirit. If Jesus is walking in Galilee healing the sick and preaching the Gospel I want to picture Jesus doing these things. There’s nothing unbiblical with using your imagination. We will NEVER come to a complete understanding of the Bible if while we read we dont put ourselves in the persons shoes. Take this for example. Lets say someone I know is depressed because a friend of theirs died. Now can I say to my friend who’s depressed, “Yeah its tough, you’ll get over it” when I never been in their position. Absolutely not, because I’ve never EXPERIENCED the loss of a loved one, so I dont know the pain. I dont know the loss. I dont know the loneliness. Thats why we need to see in our mind/spirit everything in the Bible. True biblical meditation is using our minds/spirit to study the Word of God, to study the character of God, and the ways of God. True biblical meditation IS NOT getting silent before God and letting Him speak. Absolutely the Holy Spirit speaks, but He speaks more often when reading His Word. Have you ever read the Bible and have a verse or a word jump out at you and then the Holy Spirit gives you revelation as to what the verse means. True biblical meditation is NOT repeating silly words over and over. To repeat one or two words over and over is useless. There’s nothing wrong with reading a scripture or verse over and over because you’re then speaking God’s Word for memorization. Sometimes we need to write, say and look at a verse alot of times to memorize that verse.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: “It’s not about saving souls for Jesus Christ anymore; it’s now ALL about saving lives on earth.” Among many flaws in your logic and theological reasoning and understanding of emergents, this quote above is perhaps your biggest. Where do you get the idea from scripture or otherwise that the gospel is all about just saving “souls”?

    Bwwaahahaha…ok that was your best comment yet.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    Pay attention!!! I answered your question in this comment:

  • Discerning The World

    Amanda

    Eugene said: “May God’s goodness and mercy stalk you and His loving grace surprise you when you least expect it today”

    Now their god must “stalk you”. But of course born again Christians know that Jesus does not stalk people. Only a thief, a con-artist, a trickster stalks people. Nic could not have exposed the entire Emenrgent movement better with his well written article (The Holy Trickster): Satan the Trickster – Embracing the Emerging Snake –

    Basically Jesus Christ is a Dove and a Snake all in one.

  • Discerning The World

    Chad

    You said: Still waiting to hear an answer to a simple question. Deborah, do you consider yourself a minister of reconciliation? Yes or no?

    Still waiting you for you pay attention! I answered your question in this comment:

  • Amanda

    Chris Rosebrough easily managed to tweet the Christian Gospel: Rob Bell’s Convoluted Gospel Isn’t the Biblical Gospel:

    The Gospel: Christ died for our sins, he was buried, he was raised on the 3rd day & he appeared to Peter then to the 12 http://bit.ly/3Wpqm

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The very structure of this passage is creedal, especially the opening phrases.

    Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
    he was buried,
    he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
    he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve,
    he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive
    he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
    Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

    You notice the difference? Christians do. Chris continues:

    It’s clear from this passage that so concisely defines the Gospel that the Apostle Paul would have had no trouble AT ALL tweeting the Gospel in 140 characters or less. The fact that Rob Bell couldn’t even come close and then claimed that it couldn’t be done is disturbing at best.

    Even more problematic is the content of Bell’s “gospel”. It doesn’t communicate the good news that Jesus Christ, true God and true man, came to earth, lived a perfect life under the Mosaic law and died in our place as our substitute on the cross for our sins and that salvation is a free gift offered by God to all who would repent and believe this good news.

    Bell’s “gospel” isn’t really good news at all. It is convoluted, hard to understand and doesn’t touch on any of the real Biblical themes and content of the Biblical Gospel.

    Sadly, I think Rob Bell’s “militant mysticism” has caused him to wander off the Christian reservation and he and those foolish enough to follow him with this UNgospel are adrift at sea without a rudder.

  • Amanda

    Is the good Muslim saved and going to heaven? Chad, you said ‘amen’. Are all saved, including the good Muslim?

  • Amanda

    The reception of Maitreya by the Master – through Benjamin Crème:

    “Thus will humanity range themselves on one side or the other: those who welcome the Teacher with open arms, eager to follow His precepts and advice; and those who see Him as the embodiment of evil and all that they distrust.

    “Thus will the Sword of Cleavage do its work, revealing those who stand for freedom and justice, for practical goodwill and love; revealing also those whose suspicion and fear, prejudice and hate prevent their recognition of the truth of Maitreya’s message of compassion and love. Thus will it be, and thus will men be tested as guardians of their future…”

    “Look forward to this time which is near at hand; Maitreya stands on the threshold of His emergence, ready to do battle with separation and greed. Rally to His call for justice and freedom, reconciliation and peace, and place your all at the service of the race. This is a time like none before. This is a time which will never be repeated. Look deeply into your hearts and make your choice: a future bathed in light and love — or a denial of your destiny. Maitreya knows the time is ripe for change. He knows humanity is ready for the test. He stands ready to emerge and begin His mission.”

  • Amanda

    Stalk? Compare with ‘abide’:

    Abide with us, Lord, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.
    Abide with us and with Your whole Church.
    Abide with us at the end of the day, at the end of our life, at the end of the world.
    Abide with us with Your grace and goodness, with your holy Word and Sacrament, with Your strength and blessing.
    Abide with us when the night of affliction and temptation comes upon us, the night of fear and despair, the night when death draws near.
    Abide with us and with all the faithful, now and forever.

    In the name of Jesus,
    Amen

    Quoted by Rev. Bill Cwirla. His sermons are …a feast for starving Christians.

  • Chad

    It seems senseless to waste any more time here. Now you will not even address any of the substance in anything anyone writes. You have yet to answer whether or not you are a minister of reconciliation as Paul calls all of us to be (and the post you keep referring to is not an answer – it’s a deflection).

    I will assume by your non-answers and lack of engagement that you do not see yourself as a minister of reconciliation, thus proving that you do not really care to perform the very texts that you claim are the sole source of truth for you.

  • Deborah,

    My “stalk” comment is a wordplay/bit of creative licence on Ps 23:6 – “Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life…” and I truly meant it as a blessing. I put the “stalk” there hoping to induce a smile or two but you chose to read something in it that never even crossed my mind. It is this twisting of words to man something never said and name calling that I do not think suits a Christian site. I urge you to follow the advise of one of the bloggers linked here

    Grace be to you, and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

  • Discerning The World

    Ah lavrai!!! Yeah love that guy. That article is with regards to the names ‘Christians’ call people who are homosexual for instance, amongst other things. The big difference here Eugene is that Lavrai would have a small nervous breakdown if you thought an Emergent was using his articles for their purposes. What you and your posse have done Eugene is mocked, riciduled, insulted, downtrodden, Jesus Christ my King of Kings and Lord of Lords. What you say to me and call me means nothing….but what you say about my Lord and Saviour….that’s a whole new ball game!!!

  • Chad

    I have asked you this once already and got no response. I’ll try again. Where has anyone here “mocked, ridiculed, insulted” Jesus?

    All your comments of “ditto” and “yawn” are beneath you, Deborah. Surely someone of your intelligence can be a bit more engaging. But I guess I should expect nothing more from someone who does think Christians are to be ministers of reconciliation.

  • Discerning The World

    You know when you will procude a smile Eugene? If you agreed that Nic’s article on the Trickster was truly and utterly a complete slap in the face of Jesus Christ? *I can only shake my head at stuff like this*

  • Deborah,

    Where have I mocked, ridiculed, insulted or downtroddn Jesus Christ?

  • Chad

    Chad: I’ve decided to delete your comments. Repeating the same question to me and ignoring my response it just not cricket. So go and comment on Nic’s blog where you all agree with New Age occult teaching – happy Trickstering.

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    You agree with Nic do you not? You agree with Nic that Jesus and the Tricksters (amongst other divinites) are basically one and the same. That Jesus and Satan are compatible. You agree with Nic that delving into shadowy arts is ok. So if you agree with Nic who insults, mocks and ridicules Jesus by saying that Jesus and Satan (the dove and the snake) are one and the same then: you have mocked, ridiculed, insulted and downtrodden Jesus Christ.

    It’s like congruence of a,b and c: if a~b and b~c then a~c or for EXAMPLE:

    if Chad agrees with Nic and Eugene agrees with Chad then Eugene agrees with Nic
    of
    if Eugene agrees with Iggy, and Iggy agrees with Nic then Eugene agrees with Nic
    of
    if Roger agrees with Nic and Eugene agrees with Roger then Eugene agrees with Nic

    must I go on? No, I don’t see why I should….it’s very obvious Eugene.

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    I originally said: yada, yada, yada, bla, bla, bla – but I apologise for this, it’s tough being expected to respond to everyone’s comments in what they think is considered to be love 24/7/365.

    You said: My relationship with my brothers and sisters does not work like an algebra equation where I have to agree with them to love them.

    Hmmm…Eugene. You need to really start thinking about what you are really saying. You can’t disagree and agree with the Word of God at the same time. You either love the truth or you hate it. The bible says you can’t server TWO masters. You either love the one or hate the other. There is NO in between.

    There is a difference between hanging with a bunch of people whose teachings are as dodgy as they get because they really make an excellent cup of coffee. This is like telling a person caught in a cult that they can’t leave because the cult leader might be telling the truth when he says he loves all of them and will never hurt them in any way,

    The battle is spiritual, not of the flesh. False teaching will destroy you spiritually. This is what this is all about.

    You said: I will encage into conversation with him about it as I feel I don’t understand much of what he is talking about.

    You have every right to speak to Nic, no where have I said you can’t. I have said over and over on this blog that can no force anyone to choose Jesus Christ over false teaching. It’s all your choice.

    Lastly you say you don’t understand what Nic is really talking about. But yet you argue with me. How can you argue about something you don’t know about?

    Eugene… this conversation is not about being hateful; it’s all about speaking the truth.

    You said: I think we will laugh at ourselves because of how little we new on this side of Jesus Christ’s return.

    Many people are not going to be laughing one day when they find out that because they refused to listen to the Word of God they found themselves standing before the Throne of Jesus Christ being judged. Being told that God does not know them for they were luke warm and sat on the fence; one minute quoting scripture and another minute loving the words and ideas of wicked knowledge.

    You said: May you find the perfect love that casts out all fear.

    Roger said the same thing a few times on this blog and I said to him that Jesus Christ casts out all fear for God always gives a sound mind through His Word and His Holy Spirit that abides in all born again Christians.

  • Deborah,

    That was an excellent attempt of guilt by association which does not prove your accusation: “you have mocked, ridiculed, insulted and downtrodden Jesus Christ.”

    My relationship with my brothers and sisters does not work like an algebra equation where I have to agree with them to love them. If your relationships are defined by that I feel deep sympathy for you and pray that you will fall into the love of Jesus Christ that will cause your heart to accept others in spite of differences.

    I reserve the privilege for myself to not make up my about everything all the time until I have made up my mind about it. Nick’s “Trickster” post falls into this category. I will engage into conversation with him about it as I feel I don’t understand much of what he is talking about. If I find that I do not agree with him I will not love or accept him any less. The same goes for Chad, Iggy, you and Amanda.

    Now, I feel that you and me will not progress in this discussion. I hope to someday converse with you and that we gain a better understanding of each other even if that will have to wait until we do not see dimly as in a mirror anymore but stand face to face with our Lord Jesus Christ. I think we will laugh at ourselves because of how little we new on this side of Jesus Christ’s return.

    May you find the perfect love that casts out all fear.

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    Nope, I do not follow their occult teaching, never will. I do not laugh at this situation one bit. It’s dangerous beyond belief and you just can’t see it or you don’t want too; either way it’s still your choice.

    I hope one day you do see what they are really teaching and following.

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    Nope, you did not suggest that I do. But I will never agree with what they have to say. I was just re-enforcing that they teach another message that is completely different to the bible. I know what they are teaching; I was in the occult for 17 years. I speak from years of experience. Now I am saved by Jesus Christ the Son of God, born again of God’s Holy Spirit and I now warn you, as I preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all who want to listen.

    You don’t know what you are getting yourself into, it sounds good, it sounds new, it sounds exciting, it sounds mystical, you might even feel a change in your life – all these things do not make what you are following of God.

    I pray you start listening to the Holy Spirit warnings.

    Right, I have an article to finish writing asap.

  • Deborah,

    I originally said: yada, yada, yada, bla, bla, bla – but I apologise for this, it’s tough being expected to respond to everyone’s comments in what they think is considered to be love 24/7/365.

    I forgive you. You are right that it is tough to always respond in love when it is perceived you are being attacked but there is not really any other options for us Christians, are there? The most important commandment… (Matt 22:37-40) and that includes our enemies (Matt 5:43-45). I would go so far as to say that it is humanly impossible to always respond in love apart from being transformed by the renewing of our minds (Rom 12:2). Without the powerful working of the Holy Spirit within us it will be impossible to love as Jesus commanded us to love and may I add that this transformation is a process, so that none of us are perfect in this yet.

    One thing that I do that helps me to respond in love is that I copy my comment to Word where I spell and grammar check it. There I read and think through it again. Often I feel the Holy Spirit pointing out something that was not said in love. When I didn’t do this I often had to go back and ask forgiveness for harsh, unloving words.

    You said: My relationship with my brothers and sisters does not work like an algebra equation where I have to agree with them to love them.

    Hmmm…Eugene. You need to really start thinking about what you are really saying. You can’t disagree and agree with the Word of God at the same time. You either love the truth or you hate it. The bible says you can’t server TWO masters. You either love the one or hate the other. There is NO in between.

    I don’t know how to explain myself any better but I’ll try. Love and agreement has very little to do with each other. We are commanded to love as God loves, serve as God serves (Phil 2). This scripture comes to mind:

    Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

    It is love that bridges the gap that disagreement/hurt/sin brings between us. If we start with disagreement the possibility of real conversation is very little but when we have the foundation of love in our relationships conversation can happen which leads to understanding of each other. That might not necessarily lead to agreement and I would put to you that need not be the aim but that the aim is love itself. The commandment is not agreement in all things but love. This is one reason I think being committed to a congregation or at least a group of believers over a long period of time is important for it is here where we learn to love in spite of disagreement, hurt and sin. Of course this Christian fellowship (ekklesia) is not possible apart from the working of the Holy Spirit.

    A lot of conversations on this site start off with disagreement and that is not always your fault. It is just the nature of this type of conversations… I don’t have any suggestions how to change that at the moment apart from asking God to fill your heart with love for the ones most difficult to love.

    The battle is spiritual, not of the flesh. False teaching will destroy you spiritually. This is what this is all about.

    I hear concern for me in that. Thank you. My journey with God has been practically my whole life and I can quite confidently say that I know when the Holy Spirit is warning me. I also have a number of believers around me who keep me in check and will quickly tell me when I go off the track. I will however appreciate it if you pray for me in this regard as well and I will do the same for you.

    Lastly you say you don’t understand what Nic is really talking about. But yet you argue with me. How can you argue about something you don’t know about?

    Deborah, I don’t think I have argued with you about Nic’s post, have I? I specifically stayed out of that one because of my lack of understanding of it. I have in the mean time started talking to him about it. Unfortunately I don’t feel that this blog is a safe place to relay what we’ve been talking about but I will say this: That post is not a reflection of Nic’s beliefs but rather a point of exploration on his journey.

    Eugene… this conversation is not about being hateful; it’s all about speaking the truth.

    The perception that it is hateful would perhaps not be if there was less name calling – from both sides I might add. Truth in love, truth in love, truth in love. [url deleted by DTW]

    As for speaking truth – that also means being truthful about what someone else says. This can prove to be difficult because it is easy to give our own interpretation of what was said but much more difficult to say what they said in our own words and still be truthful. We all come to text with our own baggage that influences how we perceive what is being said and that makes conversation with the core value of love so much more important. (On a side note: This is true for reading and interpreting the Bible as well and I believe that outside a relationship with Jesus Christ and with His body (other believers) it is impossible to interpret the Scriptures correctly.)

    Many people are not going to be laughing one day when they find out that because they refused to listen to the Word of God they found themselves standing before the Throne of Jesus Christ being judged. Being told that God does not know them for they were luke warm and sat on the fence; one minute quoting scripture and another minute loving the words and ideas of wicked knowledge.

    I agree a lot of people will get some big surprises but perhaps not for the same reason as you say here. One of the Scriptures that remind me of this is Matthew 25 where both the sheep and goats confessed the King as Lord but the works they did not correspond to their confession.

    Though my reference to laughing at ourselves was more aimed at how little we do understand of an infinite God and his infinite grace towards us and how we so easily judge each other thinking that we have the monopoly on knowledge of God. Call it a confession towards humility if you will.

    You said: May you find the perfect love that casts out all fear.

    Roger said the same thing a few times on this blog and I said to him that Jesus Christ casts out all fear for God always gives a sound mind through His Word and His Holy Spirit that abides in all born again Christians.

    I was referring to 1 John 4:18. I really do love the Bible and see it as authoritive in testifying of the Truth – Jesus Christ. (In case you wondered, that was a reference to John 14:6)

    May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

  • You did it! Wow, I’m impressed.
    Thank you very much.

  • Eugene said: How my comment ended up at #14 only WordPress knows. WordPress seems to have a mind of its own…

    [EDITED BY DTW: I moved your comment that went MIA. I tried to use your name, email, website, but it seems it did not pick up your avatar..sorry about that.]

  • Deborah

    Did I suggest that you should follow any of their teachings? I do not understand this comment of yours.

  • Amanda

    Pay close attention to what Eugene is teaching you, DTW. He is bound by the LAW of LOVE and will speak accordingly. He probably resonates with Andrew’s comment on emerging africa:

    As Christians we all read the same bible, have hope through the life and death of Jesus and worship the same risen Christ. However, problems arise out of understanding, interpretation and dogma of belief. As soon as we start placing our own dogma as a priority over imitating Jesus we head into an endless and fruitless spiral that is not of the Spirit. The arrogant intolerance shown to others that I have seen lately online has upset me to the point of anger.

    Andrew has it completely backwards. John Piper called them air flowers, making the fruit the root. To them, as long as you produce ‘fruit’, in other words, as long as your are nice to all, God’s kingdom is established on earth and that is all that matters. Dogma causes division and we cannot have that. Eugene says he accepts us as Christians as we are saved by Jesus Christ. Fine. But does Jesus Christ save the good Muslim or good atheist, who perform acts of compassion also? If they keep the LAW of LOVE as seen through the emergent eyes, then surely God is pleased with them?

    Andrew is angered by intolerance. I wonder what his definition of intolerance is? Could that include saying that a good Muslim, Jew and atheist are lost, no matter what acts of compassion they may perform, and that God’s wrath abides on them? I sure hope he does not think that he is actually succeeding in pulling off imitating Jesus Christ!

  • Deborah

    I understand you are busy now but will you reply to my comment in #40 when you have time please? I touched on quite a number of things there.

    Grace and peace to you.
    Eugene

  • Discerning The World

    Amanda

    Yeah. Everything is backwards…

  • Discerning The World

    Eugene

    >> Can I state it any clearer than I already have that salvation is by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ alone?

    Then how can you agree with Nic’s article? You can’t sever two masters.

  • Chad

    Deborah,
    Is it even remotely possible that you have misunderstood and misinterpreted Nic’s article? I’m only asking if this is possible. Or are you claiming infallibility?

    Also, Eugene is not serving Nic, even if he agrees with Nic’s post. He is not “serving” Nic anymore than someone is serving you by agreeing with your posts.

    Is one only saved if they think correctly and agree with only the “right” people?

    Where is Jesus in any of that?

  • Discerning The World

    >> Is it even remotely possible that you have misunderstood and misinterpreted Nic’s article? I’m only asking if this is possible. Or are you claiming infallibility?

    Word of God is infallible and Nic’s words are occult and contradict the Word of God.

    >> Also, Eugene is not serving Nic, even if he agrees with Nic’s post. He is not “serving” Nic anymore than someone is serving you by agreeing with your posts.

    Regarding Eugene. I was not speaking about Eugene serving two masters. GOOD GRIEF. The Bible says you either LOVE the truth the INFALLIBLE Word of God or your HATE it. YOU EITHER LOVE GOD and His INFALLIBLE WORD and DON’T TWIST IT or YOU CHOOSE SATAN.

  • Chad

    sorry, just saw this additional comment calling me a liar. I am sending those two emails to you now.

    I await your apology.

  • Discerning The World

    Consider that your last comment Eugene. Sorry. Go and continue your conversation on Nic, Chad or whoever else’s blog you choose

    Chad mentioned that he has made a copy of all his comments to me on another blog – should keep ya’all busy for a longgggggg time. Just remember to always credit me. Please. I really do insist.

  • Chad

    DELETED (many warnings issued)

  • Discerning The World

    Thanks for the two emails:

    ***********

    1st Email: Subject: Fwd: [Discerning The World] Comment Subscription Confirmation

    “Here is one of the two emails I got that confirmed that I wanted to receive notifications. It is on the 25th of June, the first day I commented on your blog, and it is on the “About This blog” post. My comment never showed, but you deleted it. I look forward to your apology for calling me a liar that I did not receive such notification”

    On Thu 06/25/09 5:11 PM:
    > You are receiving this message to confirm that you wish to receive comment
    > notifications by email
    > for the blog post ‘About this Blog’ on the blog ‘Discerning The World’.
    > To confirm all future notifications for this post, click this link

    ***********

    2nd Email: Subject: Fwd: [Discerning The World] Comment Subscription Confirmation

    “And here is the second email, showing that i left a comment on your post, “God does not exist, man does” on 6/25/09. Where is that comment? You deleted it, then lied about it and then tried to paint me as the liar just so that you could look good on your site to others and make me an enemy.
    I feel sorry for you, Deborah. Really”

    On Thu 06/25/09 5:04 PM
    > You are receiving this message to confirm that you wish to receive comment
    > notifications by email
    > for the blog post ‘God Does Not Exist, Man Does’ on the blog ‘Discerning
    > The World’.
    > To confirm all future notifications for this post, click this link: ……

    ***********

    Um….subscribing to receive commenter’s emails means you will only receive MY comments on the page your specified, in this case the About my Blog page and God does not exist, man does. You can subscribe to receive MY comments only. You will NOT get confirmation that you made comments and you will not receive emails with comments that anyone else has made on the page your specified either. Also you can sign up to receive comments made by me without having to post a comment.

    So, 1) Your emails are ONLY confirmations that you signed up to receive notifications. 2) You will only receive my comments 3) You can sign up without commenting 4) hmmmmm….

    So…

    So….yeahh….hmm….I tell you what – make sure you copy and paste all this to your blog or Nic’s or wherever so you can carry on discussing how I made all this stuff up and how I deleted two comments you never made.

    [Edited] This entire rediculous conversation started here, where Chad insisted I deleted two of his posts: 2009/06/26 at 5:21pm comment

  • Chad

    I reiterate: I feel sorry for you, DTW.

    Those emails were sent to me after I left a comment and after leaving my comment I was asked if I would like to receive follow-up notifications on my comment. I checked “yes” and those emails were sent.

  • Chad

    You know what, Deborah? Had you never deleted any of my comments or anyone else’s than people might actually believe you when you say you never deleted 2 of my comments at the beginning. Who is more believable? The one who continues to delete every other comment I make and is trying to say she never deleted me or the one pointing out the obvious?

  • Discerning The World

    LOL

  • Discerning The World

    [Edited] Regarding supposed 2 deleted comments: 2009/07/02 at 3:49pm

    ——

    As that famous quote goes by an anonymous person (lol): “You’ve been served!”

    Besides, I said if I ever did delete someone’s comment I will know and make a comment to say so and ask the person to repost – if they come back to read the page again that is.

    Second, when I delete your comments I say ‘DELETED’ or similar to show that you did comment but I deleted it.

    And I did this first with Iggy and I too moderated the comment so show that he commented and then I deleted it.

    It’s almost Friday night, I think you all need to get together for coffee and go back to the drawing board on how to get those ‘discernment’ people.

    Do you need a serviette?

  • Amanda,

    Is there anything specific in my comment #27 you want to talk about or did you make this broad brush comment as a distraction from the conversation between Deborah and I?

    I get the idea you will use anything I say to prove that I am not part of the family of God. Can I state it any clearer than I already have that salvation is by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ alone?

    Deborah, what is backwards about what I said?

    Grace and peace to you.

  • Discerning The World

    *whipsers* I think you should just keep quiet now Chad…the more you say the deeper you dig your hole.

  • Chad

    [Deleted]

  • Deborah,

    Where have I stated that I agree with Nic’s article? I stated that I don’t completely understand it and that I will talk to him about it. That is not agreement. Furthermore you have made up your mind about what that article means and now you want me to agree/disagree with what you think it means and by that you will decide if I am saved or not. That is mind boggling to me.

    This is what I said:

    I reserve the privilege for myself to not make up my about everything all the time until I have made up my mind about it. Nick’s “Trickster” post falls into this category. I will engage into conversation with him about it as I feel I don’t understand much of what he is talking about. If I find that I do not agree with him I will not love or accept him any less. The same goes for Chad, Iggy, you and Amanda.

    Acceptance of the person is not the same as acceptance of that person’s ideas.

    May grace abound in your life.

  • At #15???

    WordPress is more confusing than Pieter de Villiers at a press conference!

  • Consider that your last comment Eugene. Sorry. Go and continue your conversation on Nic, Chad or whoever else’s blog you choose

    I leave you with a blessing…

    May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what is the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this world, but also in the coming age. (Eph 1:17-21)

  • Hi everyone,
    Strange how people become so personal when being confronted with the truth.

    No one’s perfect, yet you can’t really find anything wrong with the author’s doctrine, then you become personal and then you want to pray for her.

    It is not the author who made up the doctrine, she is simply quoting scripture and pointing out the false teachings and / or false teachers…

    The Bible is very clear in stating that we are to do just that.

    Why is it that you can’t play with numbers (although some people think they can)? Yet you would want to play with words, if you can’t accept what is written…

    J O

  • Amanda

    Is there anything specific in my comment #27 you want to talk about or did you make this broad brush comment as a distraction from the conversation between Deborah and I?

    Sorry, I cannot find your comment at 27? DTW is free to delete my unwelcome interruptions.

    I get the idea you will use anything I say to prove that I am not part of the family of God.

    Emergents are about including everybody. We are talking about true doctrine. You try to convince us that LOVE is the important thing.You said about my comment to DTW:

    I realy try very hard to approach the Discerners with love on the internet to the point that I sometimes feel I’m being false (asof ek hulle heuning om die mond smeer) and doing damage to the message itself. It’s difficult… And then after all the effort of making sure my words are filled with love I get a comment like this:
    Sigh…

    “that I sometimes feel I’m being false” Agreed.
    “I get a comment like this” Yes, we are not following your agenda. To you the LAW of LOVE is what counts. As for divisive doctrine, we are supposed to converse and discuss our different opinions and end up singing Kumbaya together anyway. No. The fundamentals of the faith are not up for deciding what we agree about or not, or for some compromise. That is emergent speak and we are not emergent. The Bible tells us what is true and what is false. You will be disappointed every time you try and get fundamentalists to act emergent. You talk about LOVE, we are talking about true and false doctrine. Your LOVE will never overrule that, except in emergent think.
    Chad said:

    It is a very different gospel from what we know. In a way they are right to say we proclaim a different gospel. Compared to theirs it is indeed different and thankfully so. One major difference, however, is that I (and I think most of us here) count them as inside the bounds of God’s love and grace and feel that our response to them, even though their gospel sounds crazy to us, is one of grace, just as God commands.

    I agree fully. Emergents have a different gospel. Right there is a huge problem, Eugene. One is true and one false. The one saves lost souls from going to hell. The other cannot. Peace! Peace! and LOVE cannot overcome that.

    One last time. We are not emergent. We do not follow your agenda and LAW and we don’t do coffee. Why does this still surprise you?

  • Discerning The World

    Amanda

    It’s all that coffee they drink, it takes a while for it to sink it (pardon the pun).

    Got to re-iterate Chad’s’ comment here cos, WOW, finally after so much arguing he realises and AGREES that Emergent’s speak a VERY DIFFERENT gospel to Bible believing born again Christians. And THANKFULLY SO that they have come to this conclusion. It will definitely help those ‘stuck in the middle’ to make a decision as to what side they want to choose.

    Chad said:

    It is a very different gospel from what we know. In a way they are right to say we proclaim a different gospel. Compared to theirs it is indeed different and thankfully so. One major difference, however, is that I (and I think most of us here) count them as inside the bounds of God’s love and grace and feel that our response to them, even though their gospel sounds crazy to us, is one of grace, just as God commands.

    So as Amanda said: The one saves lost souls from going to hell (True Gospel of Jesus Christ). The other cannot (Emergent gospel) Peace! Peace! and LOVE cannot overcome that.

    Now all we need is another Emergent to come in and disagree that Chad (Methodist Pastor) can’t speak on their behalf…lol.

  • Chad

    SInce you are quoting me I will assume you will allow me to speak for myself?

    Yes, we do proclaim a different gospel from *you.* This is not to say it is a “false gospel” or one that does not save or is different from the Bible. It just happens to be that we come to different conclusions about what the core of Scripture teaches and what Jesus commands of us.

    You mock the rule of love. In so doing you mock Christ himself. When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was he reduced EVERYTHING to love: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. On this ALL the law and the prophets hang.

    Paul reduced EVERYTHING to love – without love you are nothing, just a clanging gong (1 Cor. 13).

    You claim peace and love cannot overcome sin and death? Christ himself disagrees with you. His message was one of peace and love and his death on the cross proves God’s love toward us and God’s refusal to bring about redemption through the means of this world (coercion, hate, violence, lies, pride, etc).

    I count it as a sign we are on the right path to be considered “different” from you and the “gospel” proclaimed on this site. It is one of fear and hate. Love casts out all fear.

    I hope you all come to know the joy and the peace and the love that is in Christ Jesus, the one who brought GOOD NEWS!

  • Amanda,

    I see the comment I was refering to is #31 now. WordPress is really deurmekaar.

    Deborah asked me not to comment here anymore and I want to respect that so if you don’t mind I can respond to your comment somewhere else (Nic’s, Chad’s or my blog) or Deborah can forward my email to you.

    Deborah, you are welcome just to forward my email address to Amanda and delete this comment if you want to.

    May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
    Eugene

  • Discerning The World

    hahaha, it just get’s funnier and funnier. “You mock the rule of love” bwwahahahaha oh my goodness gracious me. Well least we don’t mock, insult, ridicule, degrade, rip and tear up the Word of God as you twist and mix the Bible with this teaching, and mash it with that teaching.

    Sorry….this was a killer….You mock the Rule of Love….*rolling on floor laughing*

    Matthew 16:26

    26 “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

  • Amanda

    And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.'” And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
    (Luk 18:18-22)

    The ruler asked: What must I do? The answer is that you must keep the Law to inherit eternal life. You must keep it perfectly in thought, word and deed every day of your life and you shall have eternal life. One look of lust and you are doomed. There are no second chances. You break the Law and the sentence is death. A good deed here and there do not cancel the punishment for murder.

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
    (Mat 5:17-22)

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
    (Mat 5:27-28)

    Yes, the Law is perfect and it demands perfect obedience. Not ‘try a little harder next time’. Perfect obedience. That is not good news. It produces Pharisees (emergents) who think they are pulling it off or it produces despair. The emergents claim ‘the rule of love’ and point to their superior good deeds. They even demonstrate it by coming here and blessing those who ‘persecutes’ them. But the Law does not save. It condemns.

    Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
    (Rom 3:19-20)

    The purpose of the Law is to show your guilt. The Law is not Good News. The Law does not produce love, as the emergents will discover. The Law kills as it is supposed to do. In their quest to include everybody and be more loving than God, the emergents fall back on the Law and reduce it to something everybody can keep by showing a little love to someone.

    His message was one of peace and love

    A different Jesus.

    and his death on the cross proves God’s love toward us

    How? What was accomplished on the cross?

    and God’s refusal to bring about redemption through the means of this world (coercion, hate, violence, lies, pride, etc).

    Did it not please the Lord to crush his Son on the cross? Did Jesus Christ not die a violent death?

    It just happens to be that we come to different conclusions about what the core of Scripture teaches and what Jesus commands of us.

    Agreed. And your conclusions are wrong. Only the Gospel of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for my sins and giving me His righteousness, can save and that is the same Gospel that produces love in me, not the Law.

  • Discerning The World

    Biblical scripture regarding the Emergent Rule/Law of Love or justification by good works (law)

    Galatians 3:19-25.

    19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained through angels by a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator involves more than one party; but God is one.
    21 Is the law then opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could make alive, then righteousness would indeed come through the law.
    22 But the scripture has imprisoned all things under the power of sin, so that what was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    23 Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed.
    24 Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian.

  • Discerning The World

    And another: Biblical scripture regarding the Emergent Rule/Law of Love or justification by good works (law)

    Galatians 2:15-21

    15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
    16 yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.
    17 But if, in our effort to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have been found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!
    18 But if I build up again the very things that I once tore down, then I demonstrate that I am a transgressor.
    19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ;
    20 and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
    21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

  • Discerning The World

    What does 1 Law/rule do to a person? to the world?

    1) The Law was there to identify sin as transgression against God. In fact by having law it did more than identify sin, it condemned those who did these acts.
    2) Faith in Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son of God means freedom from the condemnation that the law automatically brings
    3) The Law was only for a certain period of time and was removed when faith came, when Jesus Christ came – therefore to continue to live under the law would place you back under Law – back to the time BEFORE Jesus Christ came.

    Of course Jesus Christ coming to fulfill the law and replace it with faith (Himself) does not mean the entire world is automatically saved. You need to genuinely believe in Jesus Christ and obey the Word of God – REPENTANCE of sin. Good fruit will automatically come and grow when you are born again for God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are nothing but Holy!

    However there is another ‘Christ’ one that puts mankind back under law where you are bound to be condemned by God because by keeping the law you law expose yourself as a transgressor and without repentance you are doomed.

    Tough message, tough love.

  • Discerning The World

    Oh I’m confused lol…do you wanna repost it in the right place and then I’ll delete the old one.

  • Chad

    Amanda,
    Machen is quite brilliant. We used his books to learn Greek in undergrad.

    You greatly misunderstand, however, what he is saying here and you also confuse the liberalism of his day with what emergent Christianity is. They are very different.

    As for stories, do you find Jesus “sad” that he related the message of the Kingdom through countless stories or parables?

    There used to be a time in the Christian life where testimonies abounded. That is something emergents are tapping in to. It is good that we have a story to share, don’t you agree? We confess we have the greatest and truest story ever told in Jesus.

  • Amanda

    Sorry. I messed up. I commented on this comment at 18. I think.

  • Amanda

    And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
    (Luk 18:18-22)

    The ruler asked: What must I do? The answer is that you must keep the Law to inherit eternal life. You must keep it perfectly in thought, word and deed every day of your life and you shall have eternal life. One look of lust and you are doomed. There are no second chances. You break the Law and the sentence is death. A good deed here and there do not cancel the punishment for murder.

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
    (Mat 5:17-22)

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
    (Mat 5:27-28)

    Yes, the Law is perfect and it demands perfect obedience. Not ‘try a little harder next time’. Perfect obedience. That is not good news. It produces Pharisees (emergents) who think they are pulling it off or it produces despair. The emergents claim ‘the rule of love’ and point to their superior good deeds. They even demonstrate it by coming here and blessing those who ‘persecutes’ them. But the Law does not save. It condemns.

    Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
    (Rom 3:19-20)

    The purpose of the Law is to show your guilt. The Law is not Good News. The Law does not produce love, as the emergents will discover. The Law kills as it is supposed to do. In their quest to include everybody and be more loving than God, the emergents fall back on the Law and reduce it to something everybody can keep by showing a little love to someone.

    His message was one of peace and love

    A different Jesus.

    and his death on the cross proves God’s love toward us

    How? What was accomplished on the cross?

    and God’s refusal to bring about redemption through the means of this world (coercion, hate, violence, lies, pride, etc).

    Did it not please the Lord to crush his Son on the cross? Did Jesus Christ not die a violent death?

    It just happens to be that we come to different conclusions about what the core of Scripture teaches and what Jesus commands of us.

    Agreed. And your conclusions are wrong. Only the Gospel of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for my sins and giving me His righteousness, can save and that is the same Gospel that produces love in me, not the Law.

  • Amanda

    J. Gresham Machen writes in Christianity and Liberalism:

    The liberal preacher is really rejecting the whole basis of Christianity, which is a religion founded not on aspirations, but on facts. Here is found the most fundamental difference between liberalism and Christianity–liberalism is altogether in the imperative mood, while Christianity begins with a triumphant indicative; liberalism appeals to man’s will, while Christianity announces, first, a gracious act of God.

    In maintaining the doctrinal basis of Christianity, we are particularly anxious not to be misunderstood. There are certain things that we do not mean.

    In the first place, we do not mean that if doctrine is sound it makes no difference about life. On the contrary, it makes all the difference in the world. From the beginning, Christianity was certainly a way of life; the salvation that it offered was a salvation from sin, and salvation from sin appeared not merely in a blessed hope but also in an immediate moral change. The early Christians, to the astonishment of their neighbors, lived a strange new kind of life–a life of honesty, of purity and of unselfishness. And from the Christian community all other types of life were excluded in the strictest way. From the beginning Christianity was certainly a life.

    But how was the life produced? It might conceivably have been produced by exhortation. That method had often been tried in the ancient world; in the Hellenistic age there were many wandering preachers who told men how they ought to live. But such exhortation proved to be powerless. Although the ideals of the Cynic and Stoic preachers were high, these preachers never succeeded at transforming society. The strange thing about Christianity was that it adopted an entirely different method. It transformed the lives of men not by appealing to the human will, but by 48 telling a story; not by exhortation, but by the narration of an event. It is no wonder that such a method seemed strange. Could anything be more impractical than the attempt to influence conduct by rehearsing events concerning the death of a religious teacher? That is what Paul called “the foolishness of the message.” It seemed foolish to the ancient world, and it seems foolish to liberal preachers today. But the strange thing is that it works. The effects of it appear even in this world. Where the most eloquent exhortation fails, the simple story of an event succeeds; the lives of men are transformed by a piece of news.

    It is especially by such transformation of life, today as always, that the Christian message is commended to the attention of men. Certainly, then, it does make an enormous difference whether our lives be right. If our doctrine be true, and our lives be wrong, how terrible is our sin! For then we have brought despite upon the truth itself. On the other hand, however, it is also very sad when men use the social graces which God has given them, and the moral momentum of a godly ancestry, to commend a message which is false. Nothing in the world can take the place of truth.

    The emergents revel in telling each other their stories. How sad is that, sinful man?

  • Amanda

    No, nobody will, because that would be unloving. It does not matter to them which gospel is proclaimed. The important thing is the LAW of LOVE. Therefor Chad’s universalism is tolerated and they would rather spend their time pointing out how you are breaking the LAW of LOVE and they will bless you to demonstrate their tolerance and their superior works.

  • Discerning The World

    Unfortunately Eugene is one of those who knew who knows who set up the fake blog stealing my identity. You can go and read the commentary under the article. Was it a shock for me? Nope, I already knew what he was all about from his first comment, and it came as no surprise when he ran away after I repeatedly asking him if he thinks it’s ok for someone to steal the identity of another.

    It would appear that chest hair is not a common factor amongst emerging men.

  • cecilia

    yeah Amanda! speak up girl! the same goes for “faith” and “the faith”. faith is being used left right and centre, but no one knows what “the faith” is anymore. cecilia

  • cecilia

    eugene, how about “prayer”? the biblical way. no centering. just making a decision to pray, seek the guidelines in the Word of God is one so wish, and pray (converse, speak to “our Father who is in heaven)? how sad that people should nowadays take a course on how to pray. and I thought prayer, be still, comes naturally (naturally for the HolySpirit filled child of God)? anyways, blessings! cecilia

  • Amanda

    Yes. ‘Believe in yourself.’ and ‘God beliefs in you.’

    Treat yourself to some episodes of Fighting for the Faith. You will love it!

  • mj

    What happens if as a Registered Professional Nurse I decide to leave the US and volunteer in Africa. Is that being more concerned about people than GOD? I don’t think so. Its about doing what God wants you to do. Or what you think he wants you to do. Discernemet of knowing your inner voice that can be a hard one. I want to leave the US after being victimized and where the truth was covered up by government. I will have more rights as a Citizen in Africa than I do in America as a woman. I have recently been informed that many women in NY have been victimized where they feel their privacies are being violated in a perverted venue. Any thoughts?

  • Burning Lamp

    discerningtheworld2.wordpress.com from where the above comments originated has been deleted and no longer exists. Good news.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    mj

    I have no idea what you comment has to do with the topic?

  • Dan

    Kevin wrote:

    I’m in danger of misrepresenting the emerging movement here (in fact, I might have already), because, as I said before, I’m not an emergent myself. So I won’t continue defending the movement on this forum.

    Well if anyone is still not convinced that the Vatican is behind the Emergent movement, here’s proof.
    1. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_ecumenism
    2. Catholic website one: http://www.cin.org/v2ecum.html
    3. Catholic website two: http://www.vatican2voice.org/6unity/ecumenism.htm

  • Kevin wrote:

    Kevin and Dan wrote:

    I’m in danger of misrepresenting the emerging movement here (in fact, I might have already), because, as I said before, I’m not an emergent myself. So I won’t continue defending the movement on this forum.

    Well if anyone is still not convinced that the Vatican is behind the Emergent movement, here’s proof.
    1. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_ecumenism
    2. Catholic website one: http://www.cin.org/v2ecum.html
    3. Catholic website two: http://www.vatican2voice.org/6unity/ecumenism.htm

    Roman Catholicism, Evangelical liberalism and the Emergent Church (which is the newest offshoot of Roman Catholicism in the mystical sense of the word) misinterpret Jesus’ words in John 17:21. Jesus’ High Priestly Prayer has already been answered and therefore we no longer need to pray for them to be united in God and Christ. All the true believers are already one (united) in God and in Christ (Jesus’ prayers are always answered – John 11:42). The Vatican’s oneness and unity is not so much a unity in God the Father and Jesus Christ but a oneness in the so-called one true church and her doctrines – the Roman Catholic Church. This, as they rightly say, is ecumenism and not the unity Jesus’ mentioned in his prayer. Paradox is the new idol in ecumenism. It boils down to this: What you believe is true and what I believe is also true. so let’s unite and become one in the so-called one true church. All we need is love.

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The Positive and The Negative of a One World Religion

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