Pre-Trib – Suppressing the Truth in Unrighteousness

Tom (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

16 Responses

  1. Wickus we lost your comment – a small glitch. Soorryyyyyyyyy, can you come and comment again please.

  2. I’m looking at that Prasch’s end times table, and oh wow… I am flabbergasted.
    Does he not understand that the day of the Lord is the ENTIRE 7 years
    Actually my head hurts too much right now to figure this out, I will try again later.

  3. boldncourgeous says:

    Paul told Timothy to reject foolish speculations because they cause quarrels (2 Tim 2:23 NAS). If the church were to take a stand against speculation there would be only one view.
    Jesus not only taught about His return, but He then modeled it. In Acts 1:9-14 we see Jesus leaving the Mount of Olives to the clouds/sky, to heaven. After which the disciples were staring up into heaven, obviously looking to catch a glimpse of more, but the more didn’t come. Instead they were asked why they were staring up into heaven. The disciples were then informed that Jesus would return in “like manner.” Like manner would mean that when Jesus returns He will return from Heaven to the sky/clouds to the Mount of Olives. He made is clear and simple.
    Today many bible teachers are still staring up into heaven searching for the more that isn’t there, so instead they proceed to make it up. As a result, we have multiple doctrines that simply are not found in Scripture. We have the Temple being rebuilt, the sacrifices and offerings being reinstated, and again taken away. We have the anti-christ making a covenant with many, and a conjured event of alive saints spending time in heaven. We now have a new word that is used to described to create another return of Christ. That word is “rapture.” This word is Latin in origin. First coined circa 1600 A.D. and was used to describe kidnapping and rape. The word was popularized by John Darby in the 1830’s in his book “the Secret Rapture of the church”, and since that time it has grown into being known as a first return of Christ, preceding a “second advent.” Without the coinage of this word, “rapture,” it becomes extremely difficult for its supporters to explain this conjured event. Some tell us that one is the day of Christ, while the other is the day of the Lord, as if Christ and the Lord are two separate entities. For those who don’t know; Christ is the Lord.

    1 Cor.15:51,52, the pretrib doctrine focuses on these two verses out of context in this long passage and totally miss the fact of the mystery revealed. Instead the pretrib doctrine claims mystery and therefore obscurity. With this obscurity they can make up any winds of doctrines that they wish. However, Paul starts speaking of the return of Christ in verse 24. By this he starts to lay a foundation for the mystery he is about to reveal. Paul is known for calling himself a Pharisee of the Pharisees. Contrary to the Saducees, the Pharisees taught that there were angels, the resurrection of the dead, and that man has a spirit as well as a body… see Acts,23:8. Therefore Paul spent a great deal of effort debunking what the Saducees taught the people…. that there was no resurrection of the dead. In this passage in 1 Cor. 15 Paul also went to great lengths to show that we have a spiritual body and a physical body. We know that our spirits are eternal in nature and that our physical body becomes corrupted when it dies and rots in the grave. We know that our physical body is mortal and that Adam brought about this mortality when he sinned, “…through one man, death entered into the world through sin…” Prior to the fall in the garden, man’s physical body was immortal. Paul declares the revealed mystery of our physical bodies being changed. (our spiritual bodies are not mortal, nor corruptible, however our physical bodies are (corruptible as defined in Acts 2)). When we meet Him in the air/clouds our physical bodies are changed…. those who are alive and remain, their bodies are changed from mortal to immortal… this is the reverse of what happened to Adam in the garden. The dead saints receive AGAIN physical bodies… this time incorruptible ones that cannot rot in the grave. At no time does the physical body ever go to heaven…. “…flesh and blood cannot inherit…” When John was called up here… immediately he was in the spirit… Rev. 4:1,2. The dead saints were perfectly happy and content in heaven without the cumbersome physical Earth suit necessary to survive on Earth. However, all of a sudden they AGAIN receive a new physical Earth suit, at the time where Jesus is about to rule and reign for 1000 years. Could it be that they actually need a physical body to rule and reign on Earth with Jesus for 1000 years…. absolutely…. this is the mystery that Paul is revealing. Without a physical body the dead saints would be disembodied spirits still floating around in the spirit realm, not capable of ruling and reigning with Christ. Isaiah makes reference to these bodies in Is. 65:20. Those who are alive and remain never go outside of the sky/clouds realm of the Earth… of course, they can still reproduce. However, the pretrib doctrine has these new bodies heaven bound…The conjure up that these bodies are glorified rather than what the Paul states here in the Word… immortal and incorruptible. Their idea is totally unsupported by the Word and contrary to the mystery revealed by Paul, and contrary to what Jesus modeled in Acts 1.

    My question to you is: Why does the dead saints who have been content living in their spiritual bodies in heaven, all of a sudden need a new physical earth suit to go back to heaven in at the point when we are all changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye? Of course, its rhetorical, they don’t need new physical bodies in heaven, but they will on Earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years!

  4. Paul Ryan says:

    Deborah,
    Yes , you are right; the day of the Lord is the full 7 years of the time of Jacob’s trouble.
    Jesus the Christ opens the first seal, so it is His Wrath all the way through. Satan is allowed to do certain evil events in that time period ,but only as Satan is allowed by God. As I perceive the scriptures, post trib is impossible and another problem with post tribulation is that it has to use replacement theology to place the church in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

  5. Paul Ryan,

    Thank you Paul. You have summed it up perfectly.

  6. YAY Paul Ryan!!

    Thank you :)

    In fact I wrote an article on this here about Jacob Prash explaining the whole Day of the Lord and Jacob Prasch read it, then proceeded to insulted the living daylights out of me and then ran away without explaining his doctrine at all. So much for the ‘love of Jesus’ in his comments. I wonder what ‘Jesus’ he was referring too? Certainly NOT Jesus Christ the Son of God but another Jesus with another gospel.

  7. Boldncourgeous wrote:

    Paul told Timothy to reject foolish speculations because they cause quarrels (2 Tim 2:23 NAS).

    The KJV reads as follows:

    But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes

    It is somewhat different from the NAS translation. In fact, there is a vast difference between “foolish speculations” and “foolish questions.” According to the most distinguished dictionaries “to speculate” means to form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence. As such “to speculate” means to make a statement which, and hopefully you will agree, cannot possibly be likened to questions, let alone “foolish and unlearned questions.”

    Foolish and unlearned questions tend to steer a debate away from the subject at hand and onto paths not related to the main subject, making it difficult for others to follow the main thread of thought in such a debate. This was the kind of thing Paul told Timothy to guard against because one can easily fall into a trap when you try to answer foolish questions. King Solomon, the wisest of men, gave a similar warning in his Proverbs.

    Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. (Proverbs 26:4)

    You wrote:

    If the church were to take a stand against speculation, there would be only one view.

    Having proved that “speculations” and “questions” are far from being the same thing, your above statement is rather flimsy and dangerous. What you should have said, is that if the church were to disobey God and refuse to contend for the faith which was once delivered to her (Jude 1:3), there would be only one view – the view of the majority and that’s exactly what Satan wants. Why? Here’s the answer:

    You shall not follow a crowd to do [something] evil, nor shall you testify at a trial or in a dispute so as to side with a crowd in order to pervert justice; (Exodus 23:2).

    Asking questions, that is, the right kind of questions and not just foolish ones is a sign of spiritual maturity.

    But the spiritual man [the spiritually mature Christian] judges all things [questions, examines and applies what the Holy Spirit reveals], yet is himself judged by no one [the unbeliever cannot judge and understand the believer’s spiritual nature]. (1 Corinthians 2:15).

    Let us now continue to address your remaining statements and questions. You said:

    Jesus not only taught about His return, but He then modeled it. In Acts 1:9-14 we see Jesus leaving the Mount of Olives to the clouds/sky, to heaven. After which the disciples were staring up into heaven, obviously looking to catch a glimpse of more, but the more didn’t come. Instead they were asked why they were staring up into heaven. The disciples were then informed that Jesus would return in “like manner.” Like manner would mean that when Jesus returns He will return from Heaven to the sky/clouds to the Mount of Olives. He made is clear and simple.

    Jesus could not have taught or modeled his return in terms of the rapture in Acts 1:9-14, for the simple reason that He did not reveal it to any of his immediate disciples at that particular time. He chose the apostle Paul, who had not yet been saved when Acts 1 was written, to reveal the mystery of the Rapture to the church.

    And, by the by, the word “musterion” (mystery) has absolutely nothing to do with “obscurity” which you say lends itself to the forging of all kinds of false and imaginative doctrines. The word “musterion” refers to a truth (or doctrine) previously unknown or hidden until God, by sovereign decree, reveals it to a chosen vessel (in this case, Paul of Tarsus) so that he may make it known to the saints. Hence Paul’s magnanimous declaration in 1 Corinthians 15:15, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.” It is absolutely ludicrous to call something that God has already revealed through his chosen vessel an “obscurity” (unknown, inconspicuous, or unimportant).

    Yes, of course the rapture was still unknown and inconspicuous when two angels told the disciples “this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,” because they were referring to his Second Coming to the earth (Zechariah 14:4) and not the rapture.

    Many Christians, if not most, cannot wrap their minds around the imminent return of Jesus Christ at the rapture because the word “rapture” does not appear in the Bible. That would probably have been a very good reason to renounce it if the word “Trinity” actually appeared in the Bible. The fact that the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible makes it rather difficult for you to renounce the rapture just because the word “rapture does not appear in the Bible, doesn’t it?

    Are you going to renounce the Trinity just because the word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible? Hopefully, you believe in the Trinity — Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, I doubt very strongly that you do because you reject some of the most important eschatological doctrines, that is the rebuilding of the Temple during the Seven-Year Tribulation AND the Millennium, the reinstitution of animal sacrifices during the Millennial age of peace on earth, the Antichrist making a covenant with many and the “event of alive saints spending time in heaven” as you said. I am not going to discuss these doctrines with you here. You yourself should search the Scriptures to see whether these things are so.

    Although the word “rapture” does not appear in the Bible, the phrase “in the twinkling of an eye” should certainly have caught your eye, but unfortunately, it seemed to have slipped you the moment you closed your eyes. Now, if you’d been a Berean, like you should, you would have noticed the intentional repetition of two phrases that have exactly the same meaning. Whenever this occurs in the Bible, you must know that the author wants to reveal an exceptionally important truth to his readers. These two phrases are “in a moment” and “in the twinkling of an eye.” The word for “moment” is ἄτομος” (atomos) which literally means “an atom of time” and is practically indivisible. The word “ῥιπή” (rhipē) for “twinkling” conveys the very same idea, which is “in an instant.” So, here we have two descriptions of the very same time element which is so quick that nobody will actually see it happening.

    The critics of a Pre-trib rapture love to quote Revelation 1:7 in an effort to prove that the rapture will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation. However, this alone proves that the post-trib rapture view is completely at odds with the “in a moment” and “in the twinkling of an eye” scenario. Imagine every single person alive at that moment when He returns at his Second Advent to the earth having to blink their eyes in the very same atom of an instant so that they all may see Him coming in the clouds. Those who are going to blink their eyes a fraction earlier or later will not see Him coming in the clouds. They will only be able to see Him when He has already set foot on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4), that is, of course, if the rapture is going to take place in tandem with his Second Advent at the end of the seven-year tribulation.

    The phrases “in a moment” and “in the twinkling of an eye” describe to perfection the nature of the word “harpazo” which actually does appear in Scripture (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The word ἁρπάζω (harpazō) literally means “to seize by force” or “to take up by force.” I’m sure you will agree that the instantaneous departure of the saints, which we call the rapture, fits to perfection the magnanimous and unique eloquence of the phrases “in a moment” and “in the twinkling of an eye.”. Indeed, the terminology alone proves beyond any doubt that the rapture is a divinely instituted phenomenon and shall occur at any moment, whether you believe in it or like it or not.

    A major mistake you made was to narrow down the rapture phenomenon to a single aspect and that is the instantaneous makeover of the living saints from their natural or earthly bodies to spiritual bodies. And, to validate your premise you made a big spiel about Paul being a Pharisee whose main purpose it was to debunk the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, and not to reveal an unknown doctrine which had been concealed right up to that moment when he said, “behold, I show you a mystery.”

    Then you go on to say that “dead saints receive AGAIN physical bodies . . . this time incorruptible ones that cannot rot in the grave. At no time does the physical body ever go to heaven…. “…flesh and blood cannot inherit. . .”

    First of all, if it were true that the deceased saints are going to receive “incorruptible physical bodies” comprised of flesh and blood that cannot rot in the grave and yet will not be allowed entrance into heaven, then we must ask ourselves whether you are also signifying that those with “incorruptible physical bodies” are going to return to the grave never to rot again.

    The reason why I ask this is because you referred to 1 Corinthians 15: 50 that says, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” So, again, whence are they going if not to heaven? Your statement right at the end of your discourse seems to be an effort to answer your own enigmatic question, and that is “My question to you is: Why does the dead saints who have been content living in their spiritual bodies in heaven, all of a sudden need a new physical earth suit to go back to heaven in at the point when we are all changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye? Of course, its rhetorical, they don’t need new physical bodies in heaven, but they will on Earth to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years!”

    Indeed, the rhetorical question is this: “Where are the saints who are going to receive “incorruptible physical bodies” to enter the Millennial age of peace on earth to rule with Jesus Christ, going when the entire cosmos is going to be devoured by fire? Are they going to remain on the new earth? I don’t think so, because if your premise is correct that the saints who have received incorruptible physical bodies will not be allowed entrance into heaven, then they will also not be allowed to rule on the new earth, simply because the earthly kingdom will, at last, be like heaven. Remember “Let thy Kingdom come on earth . . .?” So, if they are not going to be allowed to enter into heaven because their “incorruptible physical bodies” have blood flowing through veins in fleshy tissue, they won’t be allowed to enter into the new earth like unto heaven as well.

    The million-dollar question is, “Why do you distrust God’s power?” Wouldn’t you say God is capable of providing the deceased saints at their resurrection with the very same spiritual bodies the living saints are going to receive in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye when Jesus returns at the Pre-Trib Rapture? Moreover, none of the deceased saints who are now in heaven have received their spiritual bodies yet.

    Their spirits together with their redeemed souls minus their earthly bodies (which are rotting in their graves) are now in heaven. Only Jesus is now in heaven complete with his resurrected spiritual body. I should think that the deceased saints who are now in heaven without their spiritual bodies are all longing and looking forward to that day when they are going to receive the very same kind of body (a spiritual body) like unto that of Jesus. And this answers your question “Why do the dead saints who have been content living in their spiritual bodies in heaven, all of a sudden need a new physical earth suit to go back to heaven in at the point when we are all changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye?”

    Why? Because they all want to be like Jesus – not in terms of what He was in his physical body while He was still on earth but in terms of his spiritual body as He is now in heaven.

    Is Jesus’ spiritual body any different from the body He had when He was still on earth to bear the judgment and punishment for our sins? YES! The difference is this.

    1. It is a body that can go through closed doors and walls.
    2. It is a body one can touch and feel. In fact, you can thrust your hand into his side where the spear of the Romans soldier pierced Him when He hung on the cross.
    3. Does his spiritual body have blood flowing through his wounds? Had there been blood in his spiritual body, it would have been oozing out his gaping wound in his side.

    And so, there we have it in a nutshell. The spiritual body is a dimensional body of some sorts which you can touch and feel but can go through closed doors and walls with no blood flowing through veins in fleshy tissue. Voila! It is an incorruptible body that may enter into heaven.

    In summary: As I said before, your fundamental error is to isolate the mystery to a single part of the rapture, i.e. the receiving of spiritual bodies among the living saints. The fact is that both the deceased and the living saints are going to receive spiritual bodies like unto that of Jesus and are going to be raptured simultaneously to meet the Lord in the at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

  8. You are right Tom, Jacob is an abuser of women and one can only thank God that he is not a doctor because if he was everyone one would be demon possessed. Can you imagine him walking into a hospital shouting out at auto-immune diseased patients “You who dare question me!! You are nothing but devils, you possessed daughters of Satan, mentally insane…..”

    Jacob Prasch can’t answer our questions with a biblical rebuttal so all he has left is to insult us personally and make up lies about us. Everything that was said to Jacob Prasch is on DTW’s website for EVERYONE to read. There are no lies about you Jacob. Everyone can read all comments in the articles mentioned here: https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/12/14/discerning-the-world-defence-from-the-attacks-of-jacob-prasch-and-moriel-ministries/

    Also I first forgave Jacob Prasch here: http://nopretrib.com/good-fight-ministries-responds-to-paul-wilkinson/?replytocom=2635#respond and if you notice I did not insult him before or after I forgave him for his horrific attack on me and everything else he has done to me over the last 2.5 years.

    Dear Jacob, when you forgive someone you don’t insult them before and after you supposedly forgive then. That is what is called an EPIC FAIL. That’s not forgiveness that is called lying.

  9. al says:

    Jacob rails against Darby saying he invented pre-trib or stole the idea from Margaret. Not only is he wrong, as people like William Watson have demonstrated, but his own view was established late last century. The prewrath view is both confusing and disjointed. Its proponents insist there’s only one more coming of Christ yet its founder actually taught four. I don’t see where Jacob ever defends his own view without ad hominem attacks on pretribbers as support.

    One of the people mentioned above also contacted me unsolicited asking for money for their anti-pretrib ministry. Seriously? What about the gospel?

    Good responses to boldncourgeous. He/she has a website attacking pretribulationism and regularly does the rounds posting comments on pretrib forums. What a waste of time!

  10. al

    The problem Jacob Prasch has is that he either does not understand Scripture or outrightly denies what it teaches.

  11. Jackie says:

    Hi. I have read through your posts on Jacob Prasch. I use to like him but have since seen the light of his railings and bad mouth. There was a bit of a scuffle between him and his ministry and a woman discernment blogger. In the video included in her post about her experience with Prasch (I will link both below) he mentions you towards the end of the video. SMH am just shocked at how ungodly Jacob Prash is. And the woman whom he names in the video as “godly” one of them is Kay Arthur, who is into contemplative prayer and mysticism. :-/

    Video – http://youtu.be/ejpQZdVFZAE

    Post – https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2016/07/13/an-encounter-with-a-madman-or-two/

  12. Thanks Jackie,

    You have confirmed what we have been experiencing with Prasch for many years. He is not a nice man.

    Indeed, women are at liberty to teach sound doctrine, with the emphasis on “sound,” especially in marriages and in situations where the men have failed to do their godly duty. I for one sat under the teaching of an elderly woman for many years in her weekly Bible studies and never regretted it. However, in today’s climate of global feminism most churches, and in particular the WOF and prophetic movement ministries, have gone overboard in their appointment of female pastors. This is not a good thing because most of them are still very young and not at all well-grounded in Scripture. In God’s order of things, women are not supposed to make unilateral decisions, especially in matters of spiritual importance. When Eve gave the forbidden fruit to her husband she had already eaten of it. I’m not saying that men are not prone to deceit. In fact, men have contributed a lot of the rubbish that is being disseminated in churches today. Nonetheless, it does not take away the fact that God has a certain order of things and we are supposed to honor it. Yes of course women should not be silenced when men teach false doctrines and lead many astray. They should speak out against it boldly

  13. Hi Jackie

    Thank you for your comment. I really appreciate it!

    I went to watch this video, my goodness he just never stops. You see if you as a woman follow Jacob Prasch and never question him like Kay Arthur and Caryl Matrisciana did…they obviously never questioned him, then you are as a women allowed to preach, but if you question him…ohhhhhhhh now you have occurred the wrath of Jacob Prasch and you become crazy, demented, vile, a witch etc.

    Jacob Prasch…I pray for your salvation.

  14. May I Not Clang says:

    ====>>>>>”never question him like Kay Arthur and Caryl Matrisciana did…they obviously never questioned him”<<<<<==== What???? Have I misunderstood? Are you saying Caryl Matrisciana had some tie to Jacob Prasch? If so was she not pre-trib, was she a nephilim espouser as well?

  15. May I Not Clang

    I’m not saying anything, all I know is that if you disagree with Prasch you are on his hit list. If you don’t disagree with him you are in his good books.

  16. Shane Shaddix says:

    The catching up of the saints which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord does not happen until the dead rise first (the resurrection)(I Thess. 4:16-17). Therefore no rapture til the resurrection. Job said no resurrection til the heavens be no more(Job 14:12). Now John says ” the heaven departed” after the sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, the moon becomes as blood; and the stars fall from heaven(Rev. 6:12-14). My Lord seems to be referring to this same event which He says happens after, that is, immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29-31). Notice the gathering of the elect in verse 31..therefore no rapture til after the tribulation of those days (the great tribulation ) see Matt.24:21. Also my Lord said the resurrection is ” at the last day”(John 6:39,40,44,54) 4 times in one discourse, he said at the last day, not seven years before. Also my Lord charged His church to go and teach all nations, baptizing them, teaching them to observe all things that He has commanded us, and He promised to be with us for this “even unto the end of the world” (not to be confused with seven years before the end). My Lord also said He would gather the children of the kingdom at the end of the world (Matt. 13:30 and 39), (this also not to be confused with seven years before the end of the world). all this is in perfect harmony with Paul’s timeline in Eph. 1;10, II Thess. 1:7-8, and 2:1-4. As for Scofield, Darby, Pentecost, and Dallas Theological for that matter, who cares? They are no authority . Please brethren, keep it Bible. I will stick with Job, John, Paul, and most certainly my Lord, to Whom all honor, praise, and glory. AMEN

    PS All this is in perfect harmony with Peter’s timeline (II Pet. 3) “the heavens shall pass away”

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