The New Evangelical – Evil fit for a New Dark Age

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded by Deborah du Rand in 2008. Tom Lessing joined Deborah in May 2013. Tom Lessing founded the website “Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray” which was closed in 2013 and articles moved across to DTW.

56 Responses

  1. Burning Lamp says:

    Thank you Deborah for posting this valuable and rare information. David Cloud nails it. The only thing about Brother Cloud is his King James Onlyism which is extreme especially when there are obvious problems with that translation although it is certainly one I use. I find the archaic language quite difficult and distracting and much prefer the New King James which the KJV only folks have villified as evil. Goes to show how easy it is to make even a Bible an idol of sorts. But I certainly appreciate Brother Cloud’s research and stands on solid doctrine.

  2. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Burning Lamp

    There is nothing wrong with KJV onlyism unless someone believes you can’t be saved if you don’t read the KJV.

  3. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Oi Vey! My internet is on a go slow.

  4. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Also I know of someone who is KJV only and they are so far off the track they think they have reached god level.

  5. cecilia says:

    one thought going through my mind whilst still digesting this very informative document: I hope those precious souls who say (and have said in the past) that your research is poor, are reading this article!
    well done Deborah!

  6. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    C

    Me too. Me too. Hey don’t thank me. Thank David Cloud for this article Christian history. I am thinking on getting his encyclopedia. Only $29.99 I can afford that – will watch the exchange rate and see when it drops below R6 ahah.

  7. Elmarie A says:

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you from me tooo. Is it ok if I print the doc. I just have this terrible block with reading loooooonnnng articles on my notebook/laptop.

    He he so much for carbon footprints reduction, it is 93 pages long, maybe I can condense it to look like 69 pages…lol lol

  8. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Elm’ie’ < --- Thats to show that I purposefully drove the r out of your name. Yeah it's ok to print it. Print carterages are expensive. I've saving money for one day when I need eye surgery from pc glare damage.

  9. Jean says:

    Awesome research and article Deborah !
    I have had this “fight” already with an OM (operation Mobilization) Director and they just don’t get it… or rather, they just don’t WANT to get it… :-(

    They will be getting a Forwarded copy of this ! AMEN !

    Thanks again.

    I am a little “quiet” on the blog this moment because I started a new Job and I am now required to fly from CPT to PTA and JHB regularly with their business plane to do installations of PC’s servers and routers. . . BUT I am checking your blog whenever I get the time.
    :-)

  10. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Jean

    Oh great that this article came of use. Zap em with it.

    >> with their business plane

    Oh Kenneth Copeland would be so jealous!!

    Good luck with the job. New jobs are always stressful in the beginning, but with flying so much too? That would make me nauseious, for some unknown reason the take off makes me feel blehhhhh – landing however rocks. haha

  11. Andrew Williams says:

    The author of this piece, David Cloud, is so far outside the mainstream of evangelical Christianity that his views are not shared by the majority of bible-believing christians, even conservative ones.

    Here’s one response. If you are to dismiss Billy Graham, as this article does, then by implication you have to write off every single person who became a Christian through his preaching. Furthermore you also have to ignore those people who became Christians through the witness of people converted through Billy Graham’s ministry. And so ad infinitum. I am simply not prepared to do that, not least because Billy Graham was an indirect contributor to my own coming to faith.

    Whilst there is some validity in Cloud’s views (and I wouldn’t deny that there are plenty of problems with contemporary evangelicalism), he writes as one who is trying to hold onto an approach to faith that peaked 100 years ago and has now been rejected by the majority of Christians.

  12. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Andrew

    The author of this piece, David Cloud, is so far outside the mainstream of evangelical Christianity that his views are not shared by the majority of bible-believing christians, even conservative ones.

    Here’s one response. If you are to dismiss Billy Graham, as this article does, then by implication you have to write off every single person who became a Christian through his preaching. Furthermore you also have to ignore those people who became Christians through the witness of people converted through Billy Graham’s ministry. And so ad infinitum. I am simply not prepared to do that, not least because Billy Graham was an indirect contributor to my own coming to faith.

    Whilst there is some validity in Cloud’s views (and I wouldn’t deny that there are plenty of problems with contemporary evangelicalism), he writes as one who is trying to hold onto an approach to faith that peaked 100 years ago and has now been rejected by the majority of Christians.

    Not so. People can be saved because they searched for Jesus in their HEARTS not because Billy Graham saved them. Thousands of people were genuinely saved and still are genuinely saved from the Word of Faith movement because back then they still preached 99% truth. Now they are 99% false. And what does God say about the last days? That His message is going to be destroyed and if you are genuinely saved you will see that what was preached 50 years ago is no longer the Word of God and He tells you to GET OUT.

    So your comment is invalid. Who saves? Jesus Christ the Son of God and the BIBLES message of genuine salvation or Billy Graham? Do you totally understand that Jesus is the one who saves ONLY and not the preacher.

    Has the Holy Spirit not been active for the last 2000 years after Jesus said that He would come and abide in ALL those who seek Jesus Christ in all earnest? Or do you think the Holy Spirit stopped working in the last 100 years because David Cloud has exposed men who no longer obey God’s Word and have decided to follow false doctrine? No. The Holy Spirit is still here, and He lives in millions of REAL born again Christians.

    And right now, if you can’t see that the message of Christianity has been destroyed and is NO LONGER Biblical, then you have a problem and need to go and pick up your Bible and read it.

    You say, “…not least because Billy Graham was an indirect contributor to my own coming to faith.”

    Hmmm so Jesus Christ can not be given FULL credit for your faith? It was half of Billy Graham’s work that saved you. That’s not nice is it. Where is the Holy Spirit in your life then?

    Re-read what David Cloud said before you comment again. In fact don’t comment again until you have re-thought what you said in your comment.

    Btw, what’s up with everyone speaking Latin. ‘ad infinitum’ ?? Just like Rome, no one understands the false language she speaks. So let’s put this into English. Once saved always saved is what you mean? Ok, so let’s think about this logically. Who says the person was saved in the first place?

  13. Burning Lamp says:

    Andrew, you sound like one of the folks who idolize BG and consider him an icon. To even suggest that if one criticizes BG that necessarily negates those who were saved at his crusades. What an insult to the Holy Spirit and our Lord Jesus Christ!

    Also, consider all the Roman Catholics who came forward only to be sent right back to the priests and nuns and the clutches of Roman Catholicism. BG has sold out the souls of these people to appease and defuse any opposition. Do you realize just how serious this is? Deliberately sending out the birds of Satan to snatch the seed and the precious souls for whom the Lord Jesus shed His blood. Any good that came out of the crusades can only be credited to the grace of God and the power of His Word and NOT BG.

  14. Robbie says:

    Billy Graham openly denies Christ on the Larry king show! and that at a very VERY mature age when he and Rick Warren were fighting for top spot in the race for biggest deceiver (I mean preacher) in USA.

    To me that was the end of the discussion. That Trojan horse became a ranch donkey, and has exposed himself long ago… (to bible readers, discerners and modern day Bereans)

    I would like to mention though… the biggest shock to my system was Michael W. Smith exposed as a hidded Luceferian. After watching him singin’ “Above all” on the Bill Gaither tribute to the other BG … with TEARS streaming down his face… was when I realised how Satan has infiltrated not just society… but our churches.

    http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/

    [EDITED BY DTW – 5 Apr 2010: I read this, the information is good regarding Atheists who are ministers. But the lady who wrote this is anti-rapture and very much against those who believe in pre-trib]

  15. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Robbie

    >> Michael W. Smith exposed as a hidded Luceferian

    Ahhhh that would explain why one of his album covers has his name written backwards with ‘runic’ lettering in his name.

    http://www.av1611.org/msmith1.html

  16. cecilia says:

    Elmarie, remember our discussion when you were visiting here? to do things like this goes against human nature and manners. you have to be given over to a guardian spirit (meditation?).

  17. Elmarie A says:

    cecilia

    Sorry I’m bit duuuh here. Yelp me out. I do not have idea what you are referring to here.

    to do things like this goes against human nature and manners. you have to be given over to a guardian spirit (meditation?).

  18. cecilia says:

    to read, write or speak backward Elmarie… remember we spoke about Michael W Smith and few years back a friend point out to me that I must start looking at his cd-covers, always with the sun behind him….

  19. Elmarie A says:

    I remember now yes. The New Haleluja album cover does not have the sun but stage lights I checked it out. The album was made in Lakeland church with lots of stage lights. I don’t see any wrongs with any of his album covers pictures. Naaah I think skip the pics. We did check out the backward writting thing and that seems real.
    Check this google page out

  20. Burning Lamp says:

    This stuff is downright spooky. We can’t look for demons under every rock, but when they are right in our faces that is different. When MWS endorsed Brennan Manning I knew there was somthing rotten there, but never dreamed of this.

    I think it is important to see who people endorse because it is a reflection of their own level of discernment and spiritual position/maturity. It is high time the Church took off their rose-colored glasses, but don’t recommend holding one’s breath waiting……………

    Deborah, you are right about one of the mentioned sources. There is a faction within the discernment community that is rabidly anti-Rapture, even calling it a cult! One such site slices and dices Scofield as a false teacher and debunks any eschatology involving the Rapture. One even promotes Pre-wrath and Marvin Rosenthal. What a mess!!

  21. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Burning Lamp

    Another fallacy is using the argument that anyone who believes in the Rapture is correct in everything else. So if your eschatology is right then you are A-ok. Errr. No. Does not work like that.

    And John MacArthur is a perfect example of just that. So is Chuck Missler for that matter.

  22. cecilia says:

    comment on Robbie, April 3rd.

    Occult signs on CD/DVD covers of an artist, artists, or groups:

    When I am (for example) preaching the message of Jesus Christ, the message of the cross, and I threw in the “satanic salute” – do I say Jesus is Lord OR satan is lord? The one contradicts the other and the Word of God warns us against being double minded. (James 1)

    We cannot dismiss the fact that there was occultic symbolism on the cover of a M W Smith CD that the commenter “Robbie” has pointed out. If we do dismiss this, we have to draw it through to more or less all the articles on DTW. Spiritual leaders like pastors, rev’s, any head of church, research people, etc. SPEAK through words and the writing medium, the last mentioned of which includes the cover of the book. ARTISTS, (and M W Smith was just one example drawn out because he is VERY well known and has massive influence in the ‘worship area’ in churches and gatherings worldwide), SPEAK through music (instruments), the words of the songs AND the cover of their CD/DVD.

    The cover of these, usually is the promoter of the material. Who is promoting this?

    Many of these artist material have these occult symbolism shaded in the name of the printing/distributing firm or company and many times these symbols are on the back-cover. Maybe those artists who are to the best of their knowledge, following principles laid down in the Word of God, could make use of their knowledge and influence and try warning artists of what is seen on the covers of their books, CD’s, DVD’s, and overall art?

    When writers or music artists choose a cover for their book or CD/DVD, it is for one (or both?) of two reasons:

    1. to draw attention to them as artist and this (can) include(s) what they write or sing or draw.

    2. to draw an audience (specific audience?)
    both these ensuring their income and future in the medium they chose.

    I have seen only a handful “christian” artists in these three dimensions (music, books, art), doing it for free!

    To react on “Robbie” ‘s comment, I’m touching the matter of M W Smith. Already as far back as Feb. 1, 1986, The Big Picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bigpicture.jpg .

    After doing some research, I found that http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/2008/03/wolves-in-sheeps-clothing-research.html takes it all together very well; and should make one think twice about this all. Maybe it will open out eyes to be alert to look for these (sometimes “hidden”) occultic symbols/signs.

    I can agree that an artist have another artist drawing up the images on the CD’s / DVD’s, but surely they do have to approve the covers? Even if they don’t (didn’t) know of the presence of these symbols, this is proof that the occult has infiltrated the churches (in this case through the music media), and these artist don’t know that they are surrounded by these infiltrators. There is ample evidence on internet about many of the “christian” artists who use occultic symbols, even whilst performing. I believe when one stumbles upon such “proof” or articles, maybe it’s time to take stock and allow Holy Spirit to convict and help in what to do and then how to move forward? Well, that’s what I did in my life; and yes, it meant throwing out quite a few of my CD’s, DVD’s and books. In my case I reasoned: I (emphasis on the “I”) a supposed to worship in spirit and truth; Scripture doesn’t say I must use someone else’s product and worship in spirit and truth through that.

    When speaking about this (symbolism on CD’s) we do not “attack” the artist; but put out a warning: something is not “kosher” here. Be careful… it is up to the hearer, reader, listener to go do research, or don’t do it – in both, the person him/her-self will carry the consequences. Walk in the truth or walk in deception.

    This just my opinion.

  23. Robbie says:

    Cecilia

    I often though of exactly what you are saying “whether the artist is fully aware of who he is advertising for”
    I mean… I have been in a church for 40 yrs that had all the symbols of sun worshiping and I only discovered it by “chance”.
    Reading about M.W.S. had me praying he get the same wakeup call. Instead evidence mounted. There is his scary nightclub – rockitown, the multiple demonic symbols on his favourite piano… his evasiveness to comment on all these accusations etc.
    I would still give him the benefit of the doubt and will never seize to pray for a high dosage of discernment for him and malema and oprah and…

    In the meantime, I hope they get to read this blog.

    I often wonder how far God will allow us being part of this world and not in it. My car’s badge resembles an all seeing eye… Oh boy, if it wasn’t for grace…

  24. Fanie van Staden says:

    Cecilia
    It is much less complicated in my eyes. When I play in the super 14 for the Bulls, I do not run onto the field in Stormers colours. Many so-called Christian bands are displaying obvious occultic symbolism on their album covers, musical instruments, clothing and make-up and their lyrics are riddled with false doctrine and “cunningly devised fables”. The danger is that teenagers especially latch on to these bands and (yes, like my lovely daughter) then says that band/ band member gives me hope that I can also be saved just the way I am… Not all are as blatant as Alex Cooper and Marilyn Manson and Lady Gaga, who by the way has a huge following despite their open masonic/ satanic connections.
    There are so many examples but closer to home, bands that are evil but are called good include Straatligkinders, New Altum, Parletones, F*k*fpoelieskar… the list is long. Parletones is the “in” band with youths today and you must see the raving reviews Straatligkinders get…(if you can stand the language)
    Many churches across SA are hosting some of these bands in their church halls and are openly promoting them. The lack of discernment in society today is shocking.
    Professional musicians who consistently display these symbols are probably wilfully ignorant and deliberate, showing their REAL loyalty. Music is the language of the youth, and Satan knows it… Google “they sold their souls for rock and roll” and be prepared to be shocked- and then prepare to burn some more of your music collection “oldies”.
    The deception is HUGE! BUT, one day, EVERY knee shall bow…

  25. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Robbie

    >> I only discovered it by “chance”.

    There is no such thing as chance, fate or co-incidence. It was the Holy Spirit speaking to you and you obeyed Him by listening to His warning.

    >> I often wonder how far God will allow us being part of this world and not in it.

    2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

    9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    This is exactly what IS happening right now. The world has been taken over by lies and everyone IS deceived because they did not receive the love of the TRUTH that they might be saved.

  26. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Fanie and C

    Let me direct y’all to this article here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/05/22/spirit-warriors-christian-cd/

    I will comment on this a bit later. I have so much to say on this topic.

  27. Robbie says:

    Fanie!
    In the first place… you will NEVER be selected for the Bulls because you must be able to play rugby to make the team.

    In the second place… if you EVER use that poelieskar name again I will call our mother!!

  28. I was taught the Bible line upon line, precept upon precept, and encouraged by the pastors on Pastor Chuck Smith’s K-WAVE radio in California for 6 years. 2 years, of constant learning. I was encouraged by each Pastor, every day to read the Bible, as I was taught by them that the Bible through the Holy Spirit teaches us the Bible & to find a church that only teaches the Bible. You forgot a great deceased Pastor J. Vernon McGee of The Church of the Open Door in LA who is still teaching from recordings on this Calvary station. Pastors Chuck Swindoll; Greg Laurie; Chuck Smith; Raul Reese and many others did not expound ANYTHING but the Bible. Thank you.

  29. I do not believe that the logo pic you put on my comment is very Christian with my eyes appearing mad and my tongue sticking out….I don’t understand your agenda as a Christian website using this…not kind nor grace like…Carol Baldwin

  30. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Carol

    I do not believe that the logo pic you put on my comment is very Christian with my eyes appearing mad and my tongue sticking out….I don’t understand your agenda as a Christian website using this…not kind nor grace like…Carol Baldwin

    That is a default picture. I have no control over that. If your want your own picture then you need to upload your own here: http://www.gravatar.com

  31. Robbie says:

    This Chuck Swindol??? …Chuck Swindoll is an ecumenist who has spoken at Promise Keepers conferences and other forums that bring together Protestants, Baptists, Catholics, Charismatics, etc. In November 1996, he spoke at apostate Baylor University, which is home to many modernists who question and openly deny the infallibility of the Holy Scriptures. At the July 1994 Promise Keepers conference in Boulder, Colorado, Swindoll entered the stadium on a motorcycle to the blaring strains of the rebellious rock song “Born to Be Wild.”

  32. Robbie says:

    And this Chuck Smith?
    That is two out of two so far….

    CHUCK SMITH & THE CALVARY CHAPELS

    Living Water–The Power of the Holy Spirit in Your Life, by Chuck Smith (Harvest House, Eugene, Oregon, 1996, 297 pages).

    Chuck Smith is founder* and pastor of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, California; which has spawned a number of Calvary Chapels in different parts of the country. All are Charismatic; all are out of scriptural bounds.

    The author has a radio program titled “The Word For Today,” and often speaks on TV via the rabidly Charismatic Trinity Broadcasting Network. He has a very personable aspect, his speaking approach is low-key, and he is careful to avoid any untoward Charismatic characteristics.

    Hence his ministry is especially dangerous, in that most Christians today tend to evaluate a leader by his personality and appearance, rather than by his doctrine. But this is a fatal practice, especially concerning false teachers, as Dr. Chafer warned:

    “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matt. 7:5-20). The [kingdom] warning here is against false prophets who are to be discerned by the quality of their lives.

    The warning to the Christian under grace is against false teachers who are to be discerned by their doctrine concerning Christ (2 Pet. 2:1; 2 John 1:7-11), never by their lives; for outwardly, false teachers are said to appear as the “apostles of Christ,” and to be under the influence of Satan who himself appears as an “angel of light” (2 Cor. 11:13-15). The attractive personality of the false teacher affords great advantage as a “front” for the appeal he makes for his false doctrine.

    Chuck Smith, Charismatic to the core, emphasizes the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian, rather than the glorified Lord Jesus Christ, “who is our Life” (Col. 3:4). The ascended Lord Jesus Christ is not even secondary in the Charismatic concept, as they, failing to rightly divide the Word of truth, turn back to Jesus in His pre-Cross life on earth, and His earthly Kingdom Gospel to Israel.

    The Lord Jesus said to His disciples, “When He, the Spirit of truth, is come… He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He shall hear, that shall He speak… He shall glorify Me” (John 16:13,14).

    Prior to His ascension, Jesus prayed, “Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me” (John 17:24).

  33. Robbie says:

    Sorry, I got Chucky’s info from here. the Smith one

  34. Robbie says:

    This Greg… TBN’s Greg?

    Greg Laurie’s False Gospel, False God and
    Other Destructive Heresies

    Greg Laurie is a false teacher who preaches a false gospel, believes in a false god, and teaches other destructive heresies (2 Peter 2:1-2).
    Greg Laurie is senior pastor of Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside, California. He began his pastoral ministry at age nineteen by leading a Bible study of thirty people. Today that small group has grown into a church of some fifteen thousand. Laurie also holds evangelistic events called Harvest Crusades around the country. (The UPSIDE-DOWN CHURCH, p. 221, copyright 1999)

    Laurie is also the featured speaker on an international daily radio program, A New Beginning, and serves as a board member of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. (ibid.)

    In the New Believer’s Bible Laurie says, “Recognize Satan’s Strategies . . . Any so-called gospel that distorts the message of Jesus Christ found in the Bible by adding to it or taking away from it . . . is not the gospel, but a ‘watered down’ version that will give you a false assurance” (New Believer’s Bible, 1 Timothy 4, p. 1056 or p. 270). This is exactly what Laurie has done with his “void” gospel (i.e. good news).

    I. A False Gospel

    A. A False Void

  35. Robbie says:

    Carol, you almost got away with Raul Reese!! who is actually Raul Ries… 5/5?

    Raul Ries
    A Wolf Among The Calvary Chapel Pack
    June 2002
    Raul Ries, 53, is the Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Golden Springs and President of Somebody Loves You Ministries.

    Calvary Chapel West Covina grew out of Raul’s home fellowship as well as his Kung-Fu studio and was soon meeting weekly at an old converted Safeway store. Calvary Chapel Golden Springs (as it is now called) draws between 10,000 – 12,000 in attendance weekly.

    Somebody Loves You Ministries, directed by Raul Ries, encompasses Somebody Loves You Radio as well as crusade evangelism, concert outreaches, and film/video production. , hard copy on file)

    Raul Ries is among the many false teachers produced by the ungodly Calvary Chapel movement headed by Chuck Smith, senior pastor of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, CA (see our report on Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel). It is evident from the quote above, as well as in Mr. Ries’ taped sermons (e.g. tape # 5/41-12; 5/41-09), and information posted on his web site (www.calvarygs.org), that he is a product of the ungodly Calvary Chapel movement; and that he is in agreement with it. He sells Smith’s books (e.g. The Philosophy of the Ministry of Calvary Chapel, by Chuck Smith) and speaks highly of Mr. Smith, Greg Laurie, and even Kathran Kulman (e.g. tape # 5/41-09). In fact, his endorsement of Kathran Kulman’s ministry, calling her “a very godly woman” (tape # sly00-02) reveals that Mr. Ries is undiscerning (Romans 1:31) and rejects 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-14, because Kulman did not practice these verses but rejected them in her “ministry.” Kulman was a false teacher on this account alone. Yet, Ries has no such discernment (Romans 1:31; 2 John 9).

  36. Burning Lamp says:

    Robbie, wish I had seen this sooner. Please don’t paint the entire Calvary Chapel Movement with the same brush. The are many faithful pastors out there who are faithfully rightly dividing the Word and teaching verse by verse. It is not an “ungodly” movement. Yes, much leaven has entered in over these past few years and there are some very negative things going on. But as I said there are still some good men who are not going down that path. It never has been a perfect movement, no movement is. But I can vouch for the fact that there is still a whole lot of good going on. It has been sad to see the falling away that has taken place within the movement, but there is always a remnant.

  37. dennis hildebrand says:

    appreciate burning lamp’s comment about the Calvary Chapels; it is a bold and daring thing, in my judgement, to label a movement as

    “ungodly” (unless it actually is!!!) we are all, “saints in progress” tho our position is perfect, our condition most assuredly

    is still less than perfect, and our spiritual vision always subject to being blurred ______________

  38. Elmarie A says:

    Burning Lamp
    Just my humble 2c info I found.

    I found this excerpt in an article:

    WIMBER, AND SPIRIT VERSUS WORD:
    John Wimber came from Quakerism. Is this why he has traces of the belief in the supremacy of the inner revelation over and above the written word? In his book, “Power Evangelism”, Wimber explains: “God uses our experiences to show us more fully what He teaches us in scripture, many times toppling or altering elements of our theology and world view”.
    From “Testing The Fruit Of The Vineyard” By John Goodwin, Former Pastor of Calvary Chapel San Jose [1990], who travelled extensively with John Wimber: It is a common statement of Wimber’s that “God is greater than His word”
    This means two things. First, that there is essential truth in extra-biblical sources, and secondly that the phenomena experienced by attendees of Vineyard seminars and church services do not need to be validated by Scripture. They could, according to Wimber, contradict God’s Word and still
    be “from the Lord”(3). A fact sheet on the Vineyard, published by Christian Research Institute (CRI) states:
    “There appears to be little emphasis on teaching the Bible per se. This lack stands in contrast to the very strong Bible teaching at Calvary Chapel, a church with which The Vineyard was once associated . . .. While Bible teaching
    is not emphasized enough, the role of experience in the Christian life appears to be somewhat over-emphasized. People in the Vineyard frequently seem to be willing to allow their spiritual experiences be self-authenticating”.

    Then I found this in wikipedia about Calvary Chapel. There are some worry some facts here that forms part of their doctrine.

    Calvary Chapel is an evangelical[1] association of Christian churches with over one thousand congregations worldwide.[2] Calvary Chapel also maintains a number of radio stations around the world and operates many local Calvary Chapel Bible College programs. It presents itself as a “fellowship of churches” in contrast to a denomination.[3][4] Churches which affiliate with Calvary Chapel may use the name “Calvary Chapel” but need not do so.

    Beginning in 1965 in Southern California, this fellowship of churches grew out of Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Doctrinally, Calvary Chapel is evangelical, dispensational, pretribulationist, and believes in the principle of sola scriptura. Calvary Chapels place great importance in the practice of expository teaching, a “verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book” approach to teaching the Bible.[5] Typically, Calvary Chapels operate under a senior pastor-led system of church government, sometimes referred to as the “Moses” model; [6] [7] also commonly understood by Calvary Chapel as a modified episcopal governance. [8][9] Chuck Smith’s “Calvary Chapel Distinctives” summarizes the tenets for which Calvary Chapel stands.

    History

    In December 1965, Chuck Smith became the pastor of a 25-person congregation and in 1968 broke away from the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel in Santa Ana, California. Before Smith became their pastor, twelve of the 25 members attended a prayer meeting about whether or not to close their church: they reported that “the Holy Spirit spoke to them through prophecy” and told them that Chuck would become their pastor, that he would want to elevate the platform area, that God would bless the church, that it would go on the radio, that the church would become overcrowded, and that he would become known throughout the world.[10]

    In 1969, Calvary Chapel became associated with what later became known as the Jesus Movement when Chuck’s daughter introduced him to her boyfriend John, a former hippie who had become a Christian. John then introduced Chuck to Lonnie Frisbee, a hippie Christian who would eventually become a key figure in the Jesus Movement and in Calvary Chapel. Lonnie moved into Chuck’s home, and in a few days, more hippies moved in with Chuck and his wife.[11]

    In 1982, John Wimber, a Calvary Chapel pastor, and the Calvary Chapel leadership mutually agreed to part ways. Tension had been mounting over Wimber’s emphasis on spiritual manifestations leading Wimber to withdraw from Calvary Chapel and affiliate with a network of churches that would become the Association of Vineyard Churches.[12]

    Doctrine

    Affiliates of Calvary Chapel believe in the fundamental doctrines of evangelical Christianity, which include the inerrancy of the Bible and the Trinity. Within evangelical Christianity, they say that they stand in the “middle ground between fundamentalism and Pentecostalism in modern Protestant theology”. While they share with fundamentalism a belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, unlike fundamentalists, they accept spiritual gifts. However, they feel that Pentecostalism values experience at the expense of the word of God.[13]
    [edit] Calvinism and Arminianism

    Calvary Chapel strives to “strik[e] a balance between extremes” when it comes to controversial theological issues such as Calvinism’s and Arminianism’s conflicting views on salvation. Calvary Chapels hold the following views on the five points of Calvinism:

    1. Calvary Chapel agrees with Calvinism’s view of all men as “sinners” but holds that — with God’s grace — salvation becomes possible.[14]
    2. Calvinists believe that man’s election to salvation lies completely in the choice of God, while Arminians believe that man’s free will plays a role as well. Calvary Chapel has taken a middle ground approach by saying that “God clearly does choose, but man must also accept God’s invitation to salvation.”[15]
    3. Calvary strongly sides with Arminianism, which contends that Jesus died “for the whole world”; this contrasts with the Calvinist view that Jesus’ death was intended and therefore efficient only for those who would believe. The Calvary Chapel view is that the “atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ was clearly sufficient to save the entire human race”.[16]
    4. On dealing with man’s ability to resist God, Calvary sides with Arminianism and believes that “God’s grace can either be resisted or received by the exercise of human free will”.[17] Calvinists believe in irresistible grace.
    5. Calvary Chapels believe in the perseverance of the saints (true believers) but express deep concern about sinful lifestyles and rebellious hearts among those who call themselves Christians.[18]

    [edit] Spiritual gifts

    Although Calvary Chapel believes in the continuing efficacy of the gift of tongues, it does not recognize uninterpreted tongues spoken in a congregational setting as necessarily inspired (or at least directed) by the Holy Spirit because of its understanding of 1 Corinthians 14. Calvary Chapel accepts that the Bible affirms interpreted tongues and modern prophecy. Practicing tongues in private occurs more commonly.[19] Calvary Chapel does not teach that the outward manifestation of every Christian counts as speaking in tongues. Instead, the movement’s theologians regard speaking in tongues as one of the many gifts of the Spirit and see believers as blessed as the Spirit moves.[citation needed]

    Similar to other Pentecostal or Charismatic movements[20], Calvary Chapel holds that the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not take place during conversion, but is available as a second experience.[21] It is their understanding that there are three distinct relationships with the Holy Spirit. The first is that which is experienced prior to conversion. In this relationship the Holy Spirit is convicting the person of his sin. [22] In the second relationship the Holy Spirit indwells believers during conversion for the purpose of sanctification. [23] The third relationship is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which Calvary Chapel believes is for the purpose of being a Christian witness.
    [edit] Baptism and Communion

    Calvary Chapels practice believer’s baptism by immersion. Calvary Chapel does not regard baptism as necessary for salvation, but instead sees it as an outward sign of an inward change. As a result, the Chapels do not baptize infants, although they may dedicate them to God. Calvary Chapel views Communion in a symbolic way, with reference to 1 Corinthians 11:23-26.
    [edit] Eschatology

    Calvary Chapels strongly espouse pretribulationist and premillennialist views in their eschatology (the study of the end times). They believe that the rapture of the Church will occur first, followed by a literal seven-year period of great tribulation, followed by the second coming of Jesus Christ, and then finally a literal thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ on earth called the Millennial Kingdom. Calvary Chapel also rejects supersessionism and instead believes that the Jews remain God’s chosen people and that Israel will play an important part in the end times.[24]

    Interest in one event during the Tribulation—the building of a Third Temple in Jerusalem—led in the early 1980s to associations between some in Calvary Chapel (including Chuck Smith) and Jewish groups interested in seeing the temple rebuilt.[25]
    [edit] Return of Christ in 1981

    During the late 1970s and early 1980s, Chuck Smith wrote and published a prophetic timeline that predicted the Rapture would occur in 1981.[26][27] The reasoning had to do with the idea that the 7-year Tribulation would end in 1988, forty years after the establishment of the state of Israel. In his 1978 book, Chuck reasoned that Haley’s Comet in 1986 would result in problems for those left behind: “The Lord said that towards the end of the Tribulation period the sun would scorch men who dwell upon the face of the earth (Rev. 16). The year 1986 would fit just about right! We’re getting close to the Tribulation and the return of Christ in glory. All the pieces of the puzzle are coming together.” [26]

    Disappointment resulting from the prophecy not materializing in 1981 caused some to leave the church.[28][29][30][31]

    Practices

    Calvary Chapel pastors tend to prefer expositional sermons rather than topical ones, and they will often give their sermons sequentially from the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. They believe that expository preaching allows the congregation to learn how all parts of the Bible address issues as opposed to topical sermons which they see as allowing preachers to emphasize certain issues more than others.[citation needed] Another advantage, they say, is that it makes difficult topics easier to address because members of the congregation won’t feel like they are being singled out.[citation needed] It sees expository teaching as providing consistent teaching that, over time, brings the “perfecting of the saints” which is part of their general philosophy for the Church.[32] In teaching expositorily through scripture sequentially, Calvary Chapel believes God sets the agenda, not the pastor.

    Calvary Chapels believe that most churches have a “dependent, highly organized, [and] structured” environment, but that most people want an “independent and casual way of life”. Calvary therefore has decided[citation needed] to have a casual and laid-back atmosphere in their churches. As a practical implication of this philosophy, people may wear street clothes to church.[33] Praise and worship usually consists of upbeat contemporary Christian music though many Calvarys also play hymns. The style of worship generally reflects the region and the specific make-up of the congregation.

    Calvary Chapel does not have a formalized system of church membership. Calling a Calvary Chapel one’s church usually means regularly attending church services and becoming involved in fellowship with other “members” of the church.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary_Chapel

  39. Burning Lamp says:

    El Marie, I would say this is an accurate account of the belief system of Calvary Chapels. Calvary Chapels are a fellowship, not a denomination, but there are certain “ground rules” that are respected to become a Calvary Chapel. It is not a perfect organization, but I have found it to be the one that most fits my understanding of Scripture and overall stands for sound doctrine. They take a strong stand against Calvinism.

    One weakness of the system could be that the senior pastor “sits in the seat of Moses”. If the pastor has a servant heart and is sensitive to the needs of his flock this is a good thing and is much better than the congregational rule type of church government where splits can occur over the choice of new carpet or personality conflicts. However, if the pastor is not willing to be held accountable, he can “fire” an elder who does not agree with him. It all comes down to the individual and their heart.

    Calvary Chapels have defended truth while others caved and as a result have been a target of the enemy. Sadly, leaven has entered in at different places and where it has not been purged, but allowed to grow and some “rogue” pastors have not been reigned in as they should be, this is not good. But it is not an organized denomination so the “teeth” to do so are not in place. This could be considered another weakness. However the flip side of that is in an organized denomination the hierarchy can trump the local congregation and there is a pecking order. There is no perfect form of church government this side of heaven due to the imperfections of man. There are valid criticisms of CCs, but that is balanced out by the pastors who are honoring the Lord.

    There are still men who stand for truth and defend it and are still salt and light to the movement. I have sat under both, and it is my contention that expositional teaching tends to be more instructional than expository teaching as a rule.

    Chuck Smith is not infallible and he would certainly be the first to admit that. He has areas of vulnerablity like all of us. Up in years now, he has given his life as a living sacrifice to the Lord and he will stand before the Bema just the same as the rest of us except that he bears more responsiblity just as any leader.

    Those of us who worship in a CC fellowship do not have an allegience to CCs, but rather to our Lord. If we should find the leadership going astray and unapproachable we are free to find another fellowship which may or may not be a CC.

  40. Fletcher says:

    It is o sad that truth has has become so obscured that people can’t see it when it sits right in front of them. Lord open our eyes so we can see.

  41. dennis hildebrand says:

    elMarie and burning lamps words are appreciated;

    Fletcher, are you interested to explain what you mean? sorry I don’t know just

    what your point is, relative to the 2 previous posts____________dennis

  42. Dave Russell says:

    Finally got through this pseudo-academic read, and am convinced more than ever that fundamentalism is a cult on the same level as The JW’s, Mormons, and etc. What really kills me is that the term “New Evangelical” is so outdated and no longer even used by people in the evangelical movement. I wrote my PhD dissertation on the intellectual agenda of the new evangelicals, and as I was researching the fundamentalist movement (a vile movement in which I was raised) I came to the conclusion that it was populated, by and large, with cannibals who devour one another. Thank heaven it’s a doomed cult. BTW, where in the heck did you get the misinformation on C. S. Lewis? LOL! Your fundy minions will read that and never bother to research Lewis for themselves. They’ll do what most good fundies do………….repeat the lies as though they’re credible.

  43. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    David

    You sound so full of hate, it’s quite frightening actually and it’s clear you’ve never read C.S Lewis. Hmm.

  44. Matty says:

    Wow, I can’t believe people actually waste their lives and time debating this crap…
    I’m not a believer and NOTHING on this site has caused me to think any differently.
    Reading all this = an hour of my life I’m never going to get back.
    I am, however, a well wisher…
    Good luck people, with your search for your reality and meaning.

  45. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Matty

    >> I’m not a believer and NOTHING on this site has caused me to think any differently.

    That’s because you are not interested in believing.

  46. Michele says:

    Thank you for posting such an informative and therough article. I am inspired to remove the books and music from my home that teach these non-biblical philosophys, and am greatful to God for his guidance and promptings troughout my life. This article brings me to say: “Ah, is that why I felt that way?” about many of the teachings I have encountered over the years. One question though: Any recommendations for a decent bible translation? I’ve been an NIV’er for decades, and find the KJV like walking through two feet of snow. Also, I hear King James himself was no one to emulate. So whats the best one can do for an english version? New American Standard, perhaps?

  47. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Michele

    There is a massive row going on re bible translations, you can read my article on that here :) http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/08/13/what-is-kjv-only/

  48. estelle says:

    [deleted – not interested in nutcase comments by people infatuated with Rebecca Brown]

  49. Andy says:

    Calvary Chapels quote Augustine (Laurie did that at the most recent pastor’s conference a couple weeks ago), they exalt CS Lewis, and they will get in bed with anyone, like they did with the Promise Keepers and TBN. To argue that a few scattered around out there might still be faithful to the Bible alone, is to miss the point. Those that founded the CC thing, are ecumenicalists, and have always been so.

  50. Myfanwy Brown says:

    Debs, not sure where you would like this posted..if you want to post it at all. A good friend of mine sent this to me.

    Most Christians don’t know that Billy Graham is a 33rd degree Mason among other things. Billy Graham befriended Pope John Paul the II, calling him a brother and a great evangelist. For those who aren’t aware the Pope, and whoever it is that sits in that position is an antichrist and servant of perdition.

    This morning I noticed still many Christians giving their support for Mitt Romney even though he is a devout Mormon. Little do they realize that if he does get elected he’s only going to serve as a champion for that false religion. Yeah, it was hard preaching to them when they first came out, imagine now with Mitt in charge? Mormons will solidify themselves into perdition and walk around proud and tall and keep spreading their lie world-wide.

    Well again, here we see Billy Graham helping lead the way for the One World False Church already in place, breaking down walls and uniting in error. This is the goal of Satan, to unite all the world religions into one, so your faith however false it may be is accepted as good and ruled by the final Antichrist when he is revealed in due time.

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/16/billy-grahams-group-removes-mormon-cult-reference-from-website-after-romney-meeting/?hpt=hp_t2

  51. Redeemed says:

    In regards to the U.S. election, there is one candidate who has his horns showing, and the other is an angel of light. The U.S. is a secular nation, not a Christian nation. Just look at the Masonic roots that are evident on the currency and configuration of D.C. George Washington was a Freemason as were others of the founders or they were Deists who did not believe in Jesus Christ. However, the government was based on Judeo-Christian principles and freedom of religion. David Barton and others have misled Christians down a patriotic path that leads to making an idol out of the U.S. I would be just as concerned about Glenn Beck who has many Christian followers who are convinced that because he says Jesus is his Savior that he is a Christian. They are ignorant of exactly what Mormons believe and are willing to believe a lie. Then there are people like Pastor John Hagee who gives up his pulpit to Beck to share his delusions with his flock and other churches who have invited Beck to speak.

    That means that a member of any religion can run for office. People who are concerned about a Mormon should be just as concerned about his running mate who is Roman Catholic. Both are cults. The U.S. has never had a true, valid born-again believer get to high office because they have to conpromise with so many to get there. The Bushes were Skull & Bones, a secret society. Christians who say they are not going to vote are deluding themselves. There has ALWAYS been a choice between the lesser of two evils.

    The choice is clear in this election. Every citizen will cast a vote whether or not they go to the polls. Not voting will support the greater of the evils. One choice will continue the fast track downward and the other will at least slow it down and buy more time to share the Gospel, God’s truth. That is where the power is, not in the words of man. How many Christians witness to Mormons or Roman Catholics? We can acknowledge that there are sincere, moral people in false religions and have a rightful place in government. The U.S. glories heroes who were spiritists – Abraham Lincoln – and others who were not believers. Since when is this the criteria for office? The Church is to do the business of the Church, obeying the mandate given by the Lord Jesus Christ – the Great Commission. God’s judgment will fall first at the door of the Church because it is our responsiblity to be salt and light.

    One last note – there is no DOCUMENTED proof that Billy Graham was a Freemason. There are rumors to that effect, but there is no proof. He is an ecumenist and a double-minded man and that is quite enough to discredit him.

  52. Redeemed says:

    After I commented I checked the link given. It is not surprising that the BGEA would back down on Mormonism because Graham has always been ecumenical. Compromise unchecked always escalates. If Graham really valued the truth of the Gospel he would have been concerned about Mr. Romney’s eternal destiny regardless of his proper stance on the sanctity of marriage. Partly due to Mr. Graham’s tolerance of false doctrine and mixing truth and error and not using his great influence for truth, we find ourselves in the situation that we are facing today. Yes, we are being set up for a one-world religion, no doubt, but these seeds have been planted long ago and have been slowly germinating and soon will come to full bloom.

    Now the remnant that sees the truth must determine how best to redeem the time. Electing the lesser of the evils will allow more time to reach more lost souls. The Gospel is still going out although quite limited. Until in His perfect timing, God closes the door on the Church Age, we must occupy and do what we can to snatch some from the fire and also as this blog does, alert and awaken Christians to be about our Father’s business. Yes, a Mormon President will give credibility to Mormonism, but there are many Mormons in public office already and they have every right as any other citizen. The Church must be the Church and stand on the truth in order to be salt and light, but that doesn’t happen in the apostasy of our time.

  53. Marion says:

    Redeemed (and others)…I would like to share with you what I have just learned this week. Like you and everyone else in the world, I believed the American government was founded on Judeo-Christian principles (I live in the US). It’s what we’ve been TAUGHT. First, I would like to share a very cool Scripture. “O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited LIES, VANITY, and things wherein there is no profit.” (Jer. 16:19) (caps mine)

    I am currently reading a free ebook on line…It is called “The Secret Destiny of America” here is the link (you have to go back to the contents page because they offer bunny trails at the end of pages, that can be explored later)

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/secret_destinyamerica/secret_destinyamerica01.htm#1.__THE_ORIGIN_OF_THE_DEMOCRATIC_IDEAL_

    It is written by Manly P. Hall (an occultist)…before I get lots of flack over this, may I point out that MOST ANY book one would care to read are written by luciferians (whether they realize it or not – even those bearing the name “christian”), being that all those who are not redeemed by the blood atonement of Jesus Christ belong to the “father of lies.” One note I’d like to make is, I draw the line at reading books allegedly “channeled by spirit guides”, since I believe that is strictly forbidden in Scripture. This book merely lays out the agenda that was to be realized in America.

    Basically, taken from the introductory heading “World democracy was the secret dream of the great classical philosophers. America was selected to be the site of the philosophical empire. The brilliant plan of the Ancients has survived to our time, and it will continue to function until the great work is accomplished.”

    This is the plan of theosophy, if you’ve looked into that. (I have a SMALL understanding of many things) Theosophy’s basic focus is the “brotherhood of man” and the “divinity” of man – basically the ideas of gnosticism, as well; it’s crept in everywhere. This “democracy,” spoken of in “The Secret Destiny” was to be built upon the ideals of “human equality, human cooperation and freedom of worship.” All of this has been built upon the utopian ideals of government taught by Greek philosopher Plato, and was to create in this land an empire of “philosophy and science” through universities; where reason reigns and man is “divine.” There is no room in this plan for Jesus or the Bible – it is not “reasonable.” (This is also the room of communism, ans well as all the other “isms”)

    THAT is what America was based on. When this info comes to light, all the rest – the statues of gods/godesses in the capital, the markings on buildings, the architecture…makes sense. A foundation of Judeo-Christian principles does not create such things. The ideals initially sounds biblical…but THEY ARE NOT. It is a very subtle lie. Let’s look at them:

    lie: human equality

    truth: all men are created in the image of God, NOT equal and are born into varying states and conditions of life, with unequal talents and abilities, intellect, resources, opportunity, etc. Women are not equal to men in physical being, ability, gifts, ALTHOUGH equal coheirs IN CHRIST. But those interested in “human equality” have blurred the gender lines based on “reason” rather than submitting to the revealed will of God.

    lie: human cooperation (across the board – no individuality – only the “common good” – that’s a communist term)

    truth: “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore, come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing: and i will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.” (2 Cor 6:14-18)
    As a matter of fact, this verse applies to the first lie as well…ALL are not the children of God, and we ARE NOT ALL brothers. Only those who are “in Christ.”

    lie: freedom of worship

    truth: “I am the LORD thy God,…Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” (Ex. w0: 2a, 3-6)
    “And the times of this ignorance God winked at: but now commandeth ALL men every where to repent:” (Acts 17:19)
    “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

    And it will be for these reasons that the people of God will be persecuted. Believers in the Word of God, and the True and Living God vs. the “common good” reasonable “divine” man…those who would “be as gods,” worshipping the one who “opened their eyes” that they might know “good and evil.” However…they will call “evil good, and good evil.”

    This new land American was to take this “democracy” to the world…so…now, when you hear the words “making the world safe for ‘democracy'”…you will comprehend the agenda.

    I do want to address the voting issue as well. I believe the idea that we can “make a difference” by voting for the “lesser of two evils” is another lie and illusion. How does one really determine the “lesser of two evils”…only God can know the heart…and we are presented with a mighty fine “drama.” Such a vote is STILL a vote for evil. The Scriptures plainly teach that it is God who puts men on “thrones” and He does so without any help from us.

    “This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.” (Dan. 4:17)

    When God calls us out to “be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing,” could this not also apply to politics? There’s a reason it’s called “dirty politics.” Jesus, when He was here…the SALT and LIGHT did not entangle himself with politics. Rather, His response was that we should render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s. We are also admonished in Scripture “No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.” (2 Tim. 2:4)

    We are commanded two things related to government in Scripture: 1) “I exhort therefore that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men; For kings, and for ALL that are in authority: that we may lead a peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (1 Tim. 2:1-5) 2)”Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For ruleers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay you tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; cusstom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour:” (Rom. 13:1-7)
    “Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than man.” (Acts 5:29)

    Like I said, Jesus did not entangle Himself in the affairs of this world, but was busy about the Father’s business, and I believe we ought to be also. Now is the time for prayer, to share the Gospel and make disciples, warn and encourage the flock, and live separated lives in holiness before the Lord, live in the Word that we might give ourselves wholly unto the Lord and maintain the focus of what those things are that He has given us to do…not those we have been told we ought. Voting is a “civic” duty and not a God mandated duty…let each do as the Lord leads.

    I am no Bible teacher, and hopefully am a humble learner from my Lord…I just wanted to share what I had learned, and what I believe the Lord has shown me concerning these things. I pray they are educational and edifying,, and that perhaps some may be blessed and encouraged to examine what they believe and why, and question the Lord as to what lies you may have unwittingly believed…because “our fathers have inherited lies”…and so have we. (all caps mine for emphasis)

    For the love my Lord and Saviour, and of the brethren, Marion

  54. Martin Horan says:

    It’s often sad when we’ve liked some Christian writer or preacher then find out that they’re not all they’re cracked up to be. But we have to face it and move on.
    I liked some of C.S. Lewis’ writings, especially The Great Divorce as a piece of literature. It was one of my favourite novels for a while. I thought Lewis’ use of imagery and symbolism in it was incredible. So I took his view of hell to be merely metaphorical. Then I started to discover some things in his views that made me uncomfortable.
    When error is error we can’t go along with it and we have to stand against it, much as we hate to. But it’s a reminder that no matter how talented, clever and articulate someone is, it deoesn’t mean they are right. In fact, they can be very wrong and refuse to repent.
    As to Billy Graham: Cathy Burns’ book Billy Graham and His Friends is a real shocker. (I’ve given it a write up on Amazon.) It really shows you how far off the wall Graham now is. But I know a lady who didn’t want to hear a word about Cathy Burn’s exposures. Mind you, this lady prays to the Holy Spirit and thinks Benny Hinn is a man of God. (Deep sigh.)
    The thing that astonishes me about ecumenics is their attitude towards unbiblical beliefs. The one thing that I find incredibly irritating about them is their attitude towards the Papacy (and I count Graham among them).
    Many Catholics, priests included, have come out of the Catholic church with incredible testimonies. The famous Reformers who were burnt at the stake had been Catholic clergymen. They knew what the papacy was historically, doctrinally and politically. Yet we find Protestant ecumenics who think they know better than these Catholics.
    The ecumenics were extremely upset when the present pope made it clear that Unam Sanctum still stood.
    It was these Anglican and other ecumenics who claimed that Unam Sanctum had been annulled at Vatican II. The Catholic Church never claimed it was. They couldn’t annul it anyway as it was an “infallible” declaration. So Pope John XXIII–the second one; there have been two pope Johns XXIII–had no authority to annul it and he never tried to. This was just the ecumentist dream they wanted to believe that wasn’t based on a single scrap of evidence. Any Catholic who knew Catholic doctrine could have told them that.
    When former Catholics, albeit nominal ones, like myself tell them those things they refuse to listen. I wish I knew what makes ecumenists tick–other than their contempt for the Word of God!
    That guy in wearing the dog collar in the vid above was awesome. It’s a pity he wasn’t around when Jesus and the apostles were around. He could have put them right on quite a few things! At least he must think he could have.

  1. 26 November, 2013

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The following conditions does not mean that the authors of Discerning The World permit only opinions that are in agreement with us. This also does not mean that we fear dissenting opinions or ideas that are contrary to the beliefs that we hold (and/or that of the revealed Scriptures of the Holy Bible).

The following describes the Terms and Conditions applicable to your use of the “Comments” submission service at the Discerning the World website.

BY CLICKING THE “POST COMMENT” BUTTON FOR YOUR COMMENT, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND ABIDE BY ALL OF THE RULES AND POLICIES SET FORTH HEREIN. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, DO NOT SUBMIT YOUR COMMENT TO DISCERNING THE WORLD WEB SITE.

  1. Discerning the World owns and operates the DiscerningtheWorld.com site (the “Site”). Your use of the features on the Site allowing for submission of a “Comment” is subject to the following terms and conditions (the “Terms”). Discerning the World may modify these Terms at any time without notice to you by posting revised Terms on the Site. Your submission of a “Comment” to the Site following the modification of these Terms shall constitute your binding acceptance of and agreement to be bound by those modified Terms.
  2. By submitting a “Comment” you are accepting these Terms through your clicking of the “POST COMMENT” button.
  3. Discerning the World has the right, but not the obligation, to take any of the following actions, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, at any time, and for any reason or no reason, without providing any prior notice:
    1. Restrict, suspend or terminate your ability to submit “Comments,” to the Site;
    2. Change, suspend or modify all or any part of the Site or the features thereof;
    3. Refuse or remove any material posted on, submitted to or communicated through the Site by you;
    4. Deactivate or delete any screen names, profiles or other information associated with you; or
    5. Alter, modify, discontinue or remove any comment off the Site.
  4. You agree that, when using or accessing the Site or any of the features thereof, you will not:
    1. Violate any applicable law or regulation;
    2. Interfere with or damage the Site, through hacking or any other means;
    3. Transmit or introduce to the Site or to other users thereof any viruses, cancel bots, Trojan horses, flood pings, denial of service attacks, or any other harmful code or processes;
    4. Transmit or submit harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, deceptive, fraudulent, obscene, indecent, vulgar, lewd, violent, hateful or otherwise objectionable content or material;
    5. Transmit or submit any unsolicited advertising, promotional materials, or spam;
    6. Stalk or harass any user or visitor to the Site; or
    7. Use the content or information available on the Site for any improper purpose.
  5. You retain the Copyright of any “Comment” you submit to Discerning the World. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to grant Discerning the World a irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual license to use the material or commentary that you have submitted, in any medium and in any manner that Discerning the World may, in its sole unfettered discretion, choose.
  6. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to comply with the following rules concerning such submissions:
    1.  You agree not to include in your “Comment”:
      1. Any false, defamatory, libelous, abusive, threatening, racially offensive, sexually explicit, obscene, harmful, vulgar, hateful, illegal, or otherwise objectionable content;
      2. Any content that may be seen as stalking or harassing of any other Site contributors;
      3. Any content that personally attacks an individual. (An example of a personal attack is posting negative comments about an individual in a way meant to demean that person. Note that posting your opinion about someone’s ideas, doctrine or actions is not a personal attack);
      4. Any content that discloses private details concerning any person, for eg., phone numbers that have not been made public, photos that are not in the public domain, residential address that is not public, ID numbers, Social Security numbers, email addresses that are not in the public domain, etc.;
      5. Any content that you know to be false, misleading, or fraudulent;
      6. Any use of profanity;
      7. Any content including advertisements or otherwise focused on the promotion of commercial events or businesses, or any request for or solicitation of money, goods, or services for private gain;
      8. Any content that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment; or
      9. Any content directly or indirectly soliciting responses from minors (defined as anyone under 18 years of age).
  7. FAIR USE NOTICE:
    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.

DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

  • YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT USE OF THE SITE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. NEITHER DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES, NOR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, OR LICENSORS WARRANT THAT THE SITE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE OR ERROR FREE.
  • THE SITE IS PROVIDED ON AN “AS IS” BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF TITLE OR IMLPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
  • THIS DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY APPLIES TO ANY DAMAGES OR INJURY CAUSED BY ANY FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE, ERROR, OMISSION, INTERRUPTION, DELETION, DEFECT, DELAY, COMMUNICATION LINE FAILURE, THEFT OR DESTRUCTION OR UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO, ALTERATION OF OR USE, WHETHER FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, TORTIOUS BEHAVIOR, NEGLIGENCE OR UNDER ANY OTHER CAUSE OF ACTION. YOU SPECIFICALLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DISCERNING THE WORLD SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR THE DEFAMATORY, OFFENSIVE OR ILLEGAL CONDUCT OF USERS OF THE SITE OR THIRD PARTIES, AND THAT THE RISK OF INJURY FROM THE FOREGOING RESTS ENTIRELY WITH THE YOU THE COMMENTER.
  • IN NO EVENT WILL DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES OR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS OR LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR ANY OTHER MATTER ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE SITE OR THESE TERMS.

16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

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