Visitors from around the World

Translate blog:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Announcements

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

facebook: Discerning the World

Sign up to Receive Email Updates


powered by MailChimp!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Recent Comments

General Comments Section:

Click here for the General Comments Section Discerning the World - General Conversation Section

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Article Archive

Click here to find a List of all Articles List of all Articles
Click here to find a List of all Categories to search by Categories / Keywords

Website Stats

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Only The Elect are Lost; The Reprobate are Not

Only The Elect are Lost; The Reprobate are Not

Death of the Reprobate - oil on panel painting by Hieronymus Bosch - Elect

Only The Elect are Lost –  The Reprobate are Not

Elect, Can you Solve this Riddle?   

I assume you already know that the Reformed fraternity is celebrating the 500th anniversary of John Calvin’s birth on 10 July 1509 this year. You don’t? Well, then it’s about time you dust off the cobwebs from your history books.

First off, I must warn you that this is a Calvinistic riddle and they are usually tougher than a genuine South African Boere-toffee. Those of you who do not know the real meaning of the words ‘world, whomsoever, and all men’, should not even try to solve the riddle and rather bow out right now.

OK!  Let’s set the scene with a few very potent quotes from the lips of some of the most famous and distinguished Calvinists.The Elect - by Luca Signorelli 1499-1502 - Elect

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an invidious charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated (Bernard. in Die Ascensionis, Serm. 2).

This they do ignorantly and childishly since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. God is said to set apart those whom he adopts for salvation.

It were most absurd to say, that he admits others fortuitously, or that they by their industry acquire what election alone confers on a few.

Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2226)

Scripture clearly proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction. – (John Calvin: Institutes oof the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 7, Sec. 2210)

For he is speaking of the greatness of God, whose pleasure it is to inflict punishment on fools and transgressors though he is not pleased to bestow his Spirit upon them. It is a monstrous infatuation in men to seek to subject that which has no bounds to the little measure of their reason.

Paul gives the name of elect to the angels who maintained their integrity. If their steadfastness was owing to the good pleasure of God, the revolt of the others proves that they were abandoned. Of this no other cause can be adduced than reprobation, which is hidden in the secret counsel of God. (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2229)

Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2231) (Emphasis added)

God, according to the good pleasure of his will, without any regard to merit, elects those whom he chooses for sons, while he rejects and reprobates others . . . it is right for him to show by punishing that he is a just judge . . .

The Lord therefore may show favor to whom he will, because he is merciful; not show it to all, because he is a just judge. (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Faith, Book 3, Chapter 23, Section 2234) (Emphasis added).

I am particularly thrilled, enthralled, fascinated and spellbound by Calvin’s vast knowledge of God’s Word. I would never have picked up the part in Scripture which says, ‘it pleased God to exclude the reprobate from the inheritance which he predestined to his children’  if I hadn’t been enlightened by John Calvin’s brilliant insights and Institutes.

I’m not much of a Berean, but I really try to check out the things I hear from the lips of people who are most esteemed by other much esteemed scholars in divinity. I searched the Scriptures and came upon the following passages that don’t seem to gel with John Calvin’s view of God being pleased to exclude the reprobates . . . blah . . . blah . . . blah.  Let’s see what they say.

Ezekiel 18:32 ‘For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,’ declares the Lord God. ‘Therefore, repent and live.’

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’ (Emphasis added)

Now! Is there anybody out there somewhere who could point out the liar to me? Calvin said it pleases God to send the reprobate (the irretrievably wicked) to hell while God Himself says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Someone is lying and I’m pretty sure it cannot be God who said:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man [such as John Calvin], that He should lie, . . .

Wow! Imagine that. God never tells a lie; He always tells the truth because He is God, the Way, God the Truth and God the Life. There is no shadow of turning in Him (James 1:17). That’s it! Capiche? If God always tells the truth, where do lies come from? Where do they originate? Let’s do the right thing and turn to God who never tells a lie to find out where lies come from. God says:

John 8:44-45 He [Satan] was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. ‘But because?? I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.’

Do you see the problem here? Once you fail to see that Jesus speaks the truth you begin to fall prey to the lies of the father of all lies, Satan himself. Some may ask of me: ‘How dare you suggest that John Calvin, one of the greatest reformers in the history of the church was a liar? Blasphemy! Blasphemy!’

No, no, no, no, my friend, whoever you may be, I am not suggesting that John Calvin was a liar. I’m proving that God who is no liar said something totally different from what John Calvin claimed He said. I am merely juxtaposing God’s words with those of Calvin and making a reasonable choice.

If God speaks the truth, then follow Him but if Calvin speaks the truth, then follow him. You cannot have it both ways. Either you believe God who says that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked or you believe Calvin who said that God is pleased to exclude the reprobate from the inheritance which he predestined to his children.

However, bear in mind that if you choose to believe John Calvin’s doctrine of predestination you are actually making God a liar. And please don’t tell me that I do not understand what Calvin said in the above quote from his Institutes.

Ah! But even when you quote Calvin word for word our dear Calvinist friends would still accuse you of misunderstanding him. If Calvinism is the purist expression of the Bible and if the Bible is not an obscure book, why must Calvinism be so esoteric?

Here are a few more quotes from the elected and sanctified lips of a few elect.

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners . . . The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation (David N Steele and Curtis C Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism (Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co. 196, 17) (Emphasis added)

This is called godly favouritism and partiality although Calvinists prefer to call it divine sovereignty. Once again we must determine who is the liar. Could it be God who said that He shows no favouritism whatsoever to anyone? (Romans 2:11) or is it our two distinguished elected favourites who have no qualms whatsoever to twist and turn and mutilate God’s Word?

The following statement by another favourite of God is a real humdinger.

If Jesus died for every person, but not every person is saved, His death did not actually save anybody . . . . If Christ died for people who will be in hell, His efforts cannot actually be called a ‘saving work’ [and] there is no real saving power in the blood. Rather, the power would seem to be in the will of the creature . . .

These points lie at the heart of the Christian message, for they rest at the foot of the cross. (Michael Scott Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1991, p. 89) (Emphasis added).

Since when is the efficaciousness and value of Jesus Christ’s blood determined by the amount of saved sinners, in this case every single person? The reasoning here is that if Christ died for all people but all people are not saved, then his blood sacrifice cannot be seen as a saving work. Such a scenario renders his blood sacrifice worthless an a complete failure.

Therefore, to make it effectual ‘all people’ must be saved, but it is not ‘all people’ in the sense of it being the entire world. It is ‘all people within the fold of the elect.’ Voila! All the elect who are and will be saved without exception give the blood of Jesus its efficaciousness and value.

Here’s another one of the elect’s bright and illumined ideas.

Because God has loved certain ones and not all, because He has sovereignly and immutably determined that these particular ones will be saved. He sent His Son to die for them, to save them, and not all the world. (Edwin H Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism (Baker Books, enlarged ed. 20th prtg, 1999, p. 50) (Emphasis added)

And now, at last, we come to the riddle which is tied up with Jesus’ words in Luke 19:10: ‘For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.’ Please bear in mind that in the Calvinists’ world there are two groups of people: ‘the elect’ and ‘the reprobate’ and not ‘believers’ and ‘unbelievers’ as the Bible distinguishes between them.

As we’ve seen from the above quotes Jesus died on the cross for the elect only because they alone have been predestined before the foundation of the world to be saved monergistically. On the other hand, the reprobates have been chosen or elected by God, even before the foundation of the earth, to be cast into the lake of fire because Christ did not die for them.

He only died for the elect. If Jesus Christ came to seek and to save the ‘lost’ and only the elect are saved the obvious conclusion to make is that only the elect were/are lost.

Moreover, if the reprobate cannot be saved because they have been predestined to eternal damnation before the foundation of the world, Jesus did not come to seek and to save them and therefore one must conclude that they are not lost. Allow me to summarize it as follows.

  1. Jesus came to our world to seek and to save the lost.
  2. Only the elect are saved.
  3. Therefore, only the elect are lost and not the so-called reprobates.
  4. If the reprobates are not lost, simply because Jesus came to seek and save the lost (the elect only), it would mean (according to Calvinistic thinking) that every single reprobate will go to heaven because not a single one of them is lost.

The final question that needs to be answered is:

Are the reprobate lost? If your answer is in the affirmative, then you must agree that Jesus came to the earth to seek and to save them as well. If that is true, then Jesus actually died on the cross for them as well. If your answer is in the negative, then it confirms my assertion that only the elect are lost.

———–

The 5 points of Calvnism, acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

  • Total Depravity (or Total Inability and Original Sin)
  • Unconditional Election
  • Limited Atonement (or Particular Atonement)
  • Irresistible Grace
  • Perseverance of the Saints (known in the Word of Faith movement as ‘Once Saved Always Saved’)

————

More...

37 comments to Only The Elect are Lost; The Reprobate are Not

  • alastair

    i have been wrestling over this stuff for some time. with some of this type of thinking, i have often gotten mad at God, believing that I am “totally depraved” but yet i dont feel like i REALLY REALLY love God, though I seek, and yet it feels very weak. I find myself afraid of God (which in many ways is good,) but I will share that I often ended up BLAMING God. lke.. “God, if I am so depraved, and full of hatred towards you unless you remake me, then why will you not change me?” and then, as you can imagine, I didnt see God as very loving, even though I asked him to change me and have be be his, etc etc. I am not sure what all I think about these things yet, Calvinism and stuff, but wow, if salvation happens as many of these Calvinists have said, I often find myself lacking experience, love for God, understanding, etc, since… God has not changed me?

    anyway, I think this may have been a very confusing comment. feel free to not post it if it seems so. :-) Im not to into writing a bunch of stuff, and proofreading. (I think I like to write as if… it was a conversation)

    Alastair.

  • Discerning The World

    Alistair :)

    I know how you write, don’t worry. I understand what you are saying.

    Understand that when you are genuinely saved and REPENT of your sin, the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you. He convicts you. God won’t change you if you are not really interested in trying to change yourself. Why must God do all the hard work when you are not really that sincere. You show Him you are serious and then He will show you how serious He is.

    God seems to get blamed for everything that happens in our lives. Even people who don’t believe in God will blame God.

    Imagine having someone you consider to be a friend, but you are constantly telling this person how much you hate them, or they know you don’t really like them, but they hope one day you will change and repect and love them back. When things go wrong in your life you take out your frustrations on them. But you for some unknown reason you expect this person to be there for you all the time. One day you find out this person moved and never gave you a forwarding address. You are hurt. “How dare they!!”

    What does it mean to you tohave a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

    Let’s go back to the example of the friend who decided he had had enough of your insincerity. So your friend moved. You are hurt, angry. “woe is me” you think.

    Do you sit back and think to yourself what a sinful person you are and that you need to find your friend again and tell him you are genuinely sorry and CHANGE YOUR WAYS.

    Or do you sit back and think to yourself, “Well, to bad so sad, it’s their loss, not mine”. I will find a new friend to use when I feel like it and when I need help.

    If you choose the first option. Your friend welcomes you back with open arms, because they LOVE you. You tell them you are so sorry, you will never hurt them again. They can really see the sincerity in your heart. A while goes by and you start going back to the way you were. But this time you are convicted! You know it’s wrong and you REPENT and you CHANGE YOUR WAYS.

    Repentance is obendience. When the Holy Spirit convicts you, you are obedient to God by listening to His Spirit exposing your sin and you repent. The more you listen to God the more He knows you can be TRUSTED and the more He will work in your life.

    A replationship is not a one sided affair.

  • alastair

    thank you. I hope this helps others too.

  • Hi there,

    As a question, do you believe that anyone else other than the elect are or will be saved?

  • Discerning the World

    Mark

    As a question, do you believe that anyone else other than the elect are or will be saved?

    What do you mean by Elect?

    I am not a Calvanist, I am not Arminianist either. I am not methodist, I am not protestant etc, etc, etc. I am a born again Christian. Calvanism does hold more truths, but at the end of the day being born again is NOT A RELIGION but a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ. I am not a fundamentalist or hyper fundermentalist or anything else. I am however a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN.

    Jesus Christ DIED for ALL who RECEIVE Him through faith. If you don’t accept His pardon that’s your choice. You can have your feet washed clean or you can choose to not want your feet washed. Jesus’s gift of Salvation is there if you want it – no pressue. Jesus Christ wants people who are WILL stay on HIS SIDE forever, not luke warm, tossing and turning two and fro between the pages of scripture picking out the verses they like and crossing out the ones they don’t.

    If you are a born again Christian YES you are saved. Otherwise NO. Are you a born again Christian? Do you have the Holy Spirit in you live?

  • Yes, I am a born again Christian and yes, that does mean that I have the Holy Spirit dwelling within me.

    I can understand you not wanting to be put in a box, although I do find that tags are sometimes useful. It’s like if two attorneys meet and the first says he is an advocate practising criminal law and the second says he is a conveyor. Well now they both have a pretty good idea of each other’s backgrounds, competencies and legal bent.

    Sometimes it’s useful to broadly categorise and define our beliefs as Christians. The danger is that it doesn’t always work. Not everyone holds the same dictionary of definitions and that’s when the tags become a hindrance to communication.

    To answer you, I believe that the elect are all those whom God has chosen by His sovereign decree before the foundations of the world and he does that apart from any righteous act on their part. I’d read of that in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 – 2 along with the rest of Scripture.

    As I read the article above I’m guessing that you don’t believe that that’s an accurate definition of the word elect as it appears in the Word and I was wondering how you would define it? Also do you believe that anyone else other than the elect are or will be saved?

  • Discerning the World

    Mark

    I do not believe in the calvanist argument of predestination. I do lean more towards the armeniast way that God knows our future and he knows who will accept him or not – it is still upto us to as born again Christians to spread the gospels as we do not know who will accept Jesus Christ or not. Just as I warn of false teaching and I do not know who will listen or not. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts, not I.

    The Elect are those who are born again and believe by faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died for our sin. But God knows who will accept Him or not since the beginning of time. This brings free will into the picture. The right to accept of reject Jesus Christ. I can’t imagine heaven filled with luke warm people ready to jump ship, like Satan did. Was he predestined too? I dunno.

    Does any of this change my faith in Jesus Christ, whether predestination or not. Nope.

    Anyone who believes by faith (no matter what religion, language, race, coulour) that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for THEIR sins and accepts his pardon will be saved.

    Muslims believe that Jesus was a great prohpet, so do Hindus, so do Buddhists, but that does not make them born again. If an individual within either group would come to know the real Jesus Christ of scriptures and be born again then they would be part of the Elect (the true body of Christ). But this person will then LEAVE their religion, they will not attend mosque or hold muslim days of worship. This person is a NEW creature in Jesus Christ and worships Jesus Christ the Son of God only.

    I get what you are saying here. And I get where you are going with this too…lets see.

  • Hi there,

    Thanks, that was a very good response.

    We have some common ground:). We both believe in the urgency of the Gospel and we also both believe in the exclusivity of the Gospel (only those that believe in Christ alone, by faith alone, by Grace alone) and also that the Gospel is a universal invitation (although we would disagree on who could respond to that).

    And more than that you got me to start writing down what I believe regarding these things (yesterday’s post).

    Many thanks,

    Mark

  • Discerning the World

    Mark

    Cool. I will wait for your reply, cos I am hoping your reply will lead to my questions I wanna ask you.

    Also it’s not about being but into a box. It’s about shattered truth as I call it. Calvanists have most of the truth, but they have some horribly wrong things in their doctrine that are blatant offspring from Roman Catholicism. So we with the guidance of the Holy Spirit we HAVE TO sort the good from the bad and we do this through scritpure.

    There are smaller things in scripture that do not affect our salvation, but then there are the majors of scripture that one CA NOT in any way change as it changes the gospel into something else completely and Jesus Christ becomes is no longer Jesus Christ but an imposter.

  • alastair

    why does my name appear with that… sorta mean or evil looking pyramid?

  • Discerning the World

    Alastair

    I know these avatars look horrible. Go get yourself a gravatar. Google gravatar, then used your gmail email address and upload picture. When you come here or any other blog and use your gmail email addy your picture will show up. Then you wont get the default horrible ones that come with wordpress. Also anywhere you have used your email address in the past where the websilte now allows gravatars your image will pop up there too.

  • hector

    hello. my only question if anyone would answer it, is a human being capable of comming to Christ to be saved on its own?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    hector

    You mean, God gave mankind free will to chose him or not? yes. Calvanists don’t believe that. They believe God choses you before you are born therefore you are predestined to be saved. Which is completely false.

  • Kyle

    What about the countless millions of people who never heard the gospel particularly those from the first century around the entire globe?

    Kyle

  • Kyle

    Let me clarify my question.

    I agree that we need to preach the gospel to all peoples and nations. However, during the first century to essentially the 1600s travel and the dissemination of the gospel was quite limited. During this time countless millions of people never received the good news of the gospel due to technological impossibilities.

    What opportunity did the rest of mankind, who could not receive the gospel due to technological impossibilities, have in regards to their salvation? If it were by the way they lived based on the best that they knew how is that salvation by works?

    Furthermore, if faith is based upon hearing the word then how can those people be saved by faith seeing that they never heard the word due to centuries of technological impossibilities.

    If mankind is the vehicle by which the gospel is to be given then was God unfair to those who could not be reached because of mankind’s inability to preach the gospel due to the past technological impossibilities?

    Was Paul (Saul) saved by his own choice?

    What about the aborted and extremely mentally retarded? Could they choose or were they saved on what they knew which is presumably nothing in those afore mentioned states?

    Based on free will was it not statistically possible that nobody would chose Christ? (I’m speaking of possibility not probability)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kyle

    I am going to ask a simple question. What are you talking about? Did you or did you not have have the CHOICE to type your comment? You should have not because it was silly. Now by choice, re-think what you said, and by choice, type another comment that makes more sense and ties up with scripture. (However no one is forcing you). You also have a CHOICE to study the Word of God and to understand CLEARLY the matter of free will.

  • Burlning Lamp

    Kyle, in regards to aborted babies and the mentally-challenged, they are incapable of making a choice. God has provided for those – children below the age of accountability and those who are not accountable due to mental deficiency.

    Now, the Bible clearly states the way to salvation. That is our standard. As to all of your other hypothetical scenarios, that is a mystery that we don’t know and apparently God did not think it was essential knowledge for us.

    All we have to understand is that God is just and God is fair. He knows every heart inside and out. How He works out all those details is His business. We have our hands full just sharing the Gospel with those who can hear and understand. In fact, the Church has failed miserably in reaching the lost. That should be our concern and that will keep us too busy to occupy our minds with nonsensical questions. Those are usually bunny trails that lead to nowhere and distract us from the straight and narrow.

    I am not putting you down for asking, many others have asked the same thing too, including myself. I had to search it out and that conclusion is what I am sharing with you. I truly hope it helps you as much as it did me.

    If you are still hung up on this, go to the Lord and ask Him to teach you by His Holy Spirit. The predestination of some to heaven and some to hell is not fair and just. God gave man a free will contrary to the heresy of Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine.

  • Kyle

    I apologize if I appeared to be insincere. However, I am really asking these questions because they seem to be legit.

    Let me expound further.

    You and I would agree that the countless million of abortions which have taken place sorely grieves the Lord. So my question is how did these poor helpless souls get into heaven?

    It appears to me that Pauls conversion was not his own will. If Paul’s salvation was by his free will then presumably he could have rejected God and a large portion of the New Testament would never had been written.

    Again, I am inquiring how countless millions of people who never could have heard the gospel are saved. Could they have been saved?

    My questions are sincere.

    Thank You again,

    Kyle

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kyle

    Burning Lamp has answered your all questions perfectly.

  • Burlning Lamp

    Kyle, aborted babies cannot make a choice – God does not sort through them and say this one I am going to send to heaven and this one I am going to send to hell. Of course our loving heavenly father is not going to condemn anyone who is incapable of making choices. None of them had an opportunity to hear the Gospel and make a decision to accept or reject Him. Waht is so difficult about that to understand and accept?

    As to God’s plan, He intended to use the Apostle Paul – He had to get his attention. But he still could have refused. And to say our Almighty God would not have had a “Plan B” is to limit Him to human perameters. Itis difficult for us to understand, but God knew by His foreknowledge that the Apostle Paul would respond. It is hard for us to wrap our minds around how God works, and really it is futile. We take what He reveals in His Word and we trust the rest by faith, knowing the nature and character of our holy God. Perfect love and perfect justice.

    Concentrate on knowing God and His Word and His attributes. Look into the heavens and behold His handiwork, knowing you are seeing only a small part of it. Marvel at the fact that He loves each of us equally and wants each one of us to receive His beloved Son’s sacrifice freely given. But He knows it will be spurned by most because the way is narrow.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kyle

    Please don’t take this the wrong way, but after dealing with so many Calvinists I have noticed that they have such a ‘limited’ view of who God IS and having said that it’s impossible to know how God works. But He has given us clues all over the bible and one thing is this. Jesus went to the Apostle Paul (NOT because Paul was chosen NO), but because GOD KNEW HIS HEART and God knew he would accept Jesus Christ as his Saviour. Just like you and everyone else on this planet who makes the choice to accept Jesus Christ or not accept Jesus Christ. God knows each and every single heart (BEFORE BIRTH) He knows how things are going to turn out for each person. There is NEVER a plan B for God. My goodness.

  • Burning Lamp

    I thought I should clear this up – by saying “Plan B” I meant that God is sovereign and His plan will proceed apart from man’s actions and control. Of course that doesn’t mean that He takes away our free will which would make us puppets. But in the events of this world in the big picture, God is in charge and His perfect plan will not be derailed by anyone. Absolutely He knew Paul from the beginning and He knew his heart even when He was persecuting the Christians. He knew what seemed to be an impossibility from a human standpoint would turn around and bring glory to His name.

    All of this should make us be awestruck by our Lord, that He cared enough to send the very best and precious He had to save a bunch of sinners. May we serve Him out of a grateful heart- that is what pleases Him. He would never be pleased by pulling the strings on a bunch of marionettes who are controlled by the Master. What a blessing Calvinists and Reformed are missing by their narrow and skewed perception of God.

  • Joanne

    I have been reading the comments here, I tumbled across this site by doing a search on someone, and a certain article God placed before me, Kyle, I have to say I stand with you on many of the issues you raise, I see burning lamp uses the word Sovereign, meaning God does what He pleases, for His own Glory,Burning Lamp: If the scripture states we are dead in our sins and trespasses, would God have to make us alive to respond to Him? You say He knew Pauls heart, yep Paul was a murderer, as a matter of fact
    Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? There are decisions we all make in life But Salvation is soely Gods area in one coming to Christ John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Mans way of Salvation always includes an element of what standard we think God saves us by and who but does not God have the choice? Israel is a good example God did not choose anyone else, no other Nation to be His, in man eyes thats so unfair!

    Oh But who are you Oh man? Romans chapter 9 says it all and seals the deal Romans 9:11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? :) God Bless you Richly I appreciate the site!!

  • Joanne

    Oh and BTW, I know you know you don’t have to post this, I think, as I went back and read the comments over this may be overdone, I just want to say I appreciate all the work you put in here and I don’t agree with everything Calvin taught, except that of the Scriptures, what is written in Gods word is what we all should agree with, I am fully convinced yet don’t always understand, like how was Christ fully man but fully God, it just reminds me as well of well How could God only choose yet expect man to respond, How could Paul say It is not him that lives but Christ in Him….its all through scripture……..

  • Burning Lamp

    Joanne, you said you are new to this site. I would ask that you please refer to the other threads on this site on the topic of Reformed/Calvinist doctrine. All the bases have been covered, the Scriptures you cite which are taken out of context and a clear and proper explanation of the doctrine of predestination. After you have read through all of the articles, I hope you come back as then you will have a better idea why we believe what we believe and exactly what are the issues with the doctrine.

    God is perfectly able to be both Sovereign and allow man free will in the matter of salvation.

    Please come back after you have read all the information on this topic. Deborah works hard on these articles and studies the Word faithfully and carefully and takes her mission on this site very seriously.

    Grace and peace to you!

  • Hi,
    Just wanted to comment about the riddle:

    Elect are Lost but Reprobates are Not

    This is true because Jesus said in (Matthew 15:24) “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

    This is one of those extraordinary statements where the exclusiveness of his ministry is evident. Effectively he says I have not been sent by the father for the salvation of anyone except the lost sheep of the house of Israel meaning the elect of God- both elect Jew and elect gentile, “the lost sheep”. (Galatians 3:28) “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:29) And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed,”(lost sheep) “and heirs according to thepromise.” The elect are the descendants of Abraham by following in the faith of Abraham who rejoiced to see Christs Day.(John 8:56)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kerry

    EVERYONE is “the lost sheep” until they receive Jesus Christ as their saviour. Jesus was a sacrifice for the WHOLE WORLD, not only certain people.

    >> The elect are the descendants of Abraham by following in the faith of Abraham who rejoiced to see Christs Day.

    What you have explained is nothing but Calvinist ‘Replacement theology’.

  • toddott

    There is only one elect. Paul says that the promise comes through Abraham’s Seed (singular). That Seed is Christ. He is the only elect of God because only He fulfilled the Covenant perfectly. He is God’s Chosen. The elect then, are all those who become a part of His Body, through faith. Having believed we are marked “in Him.” (Ephesians) We are chosen “in Him” before the foundation of the world.
    Faith is a gift, but it is not given to just a few. Faith comes by hearing the Word, and faith is given to any who believe.
    Predestination means that anyone who believes is placed in Christ, and by being place in Christ, God’s chosen, they too become chosen and elect. . It is the Father’s love revealed in His Son through the Word that draws us to Him. It is that Love, God Himself who come to live in those who are humble enough to receive Him. It is available to all, but grace is given only to those who admit their need for Him.
    We love, not because God has sovereignly decided that we would love Him, but because He first loved us.
    There are only two, Adam and Christ. All are either in Adam or in Christ. Adam failed the test, as did all those in him. Jesus passed the test for all those in Him.
    The problem with Calvinists is that they can’t comprehend how God can retain His sovereignty if man has free will. God’s wisdom is foolishness to the foolish. Like a master chess player, He sees every move in advance and uses every move of the enemy to fulfill His ultimate will. Just as He used Satan as a pawn in His plan to bring salvation to the world, so He uses every man’s free will choices to bring His will to completion, even those choices to disobey.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you toddot for that awesome comment!!

  • Hans

    toddot.

    In principle you are on the right track, but I have to bring under your attention that faith is not a gift of God. Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. It is love for the truth in Jesus Christ that brings faith, and grace is the Spirit of grace we receive from God through faith.

    The rest of what you have said, although I knew it, was an eye opener to me. Thanks.

  • Kaleb

    todott; the New Testament describes believers as being elect from before the foundation of the world. As Christ was elect; so were all who ever would receive him. They were elect IN him before time began.

    The “every spiritual blessing” that believers have according to Ephesians was given IN CHRIST; and election, which is God’s loving choice, is one of those blessings; springing from the eternal love of God.

    God has loved his own with an everlasting and eternal love; before they were born; before they were saved. God actually works in the hearts of his people; teaching them to love Him and to hear and obey His son.

    Yes God does former our choices; which is why he knows who will reject him; but He knows those who will choose him because He knows his own saving purpose in regard to bring all his people. It was God’s will that Jesus loose none of what was given to him.

    To deny that God is the sole and only cause of salvation runs against the whole swath of scripture. Salvation is not Gods eternal option for all men; as for thousands of years he has suffered all nations to go their own way; born into darkness never to see the light of Christ. Rather, it is God’s eternal purpose for some men.
    For these; all things work together for their God.

    The reason for new testament use of the terms “whosoever will” is because those who are willing are those who are chosen; God’s grace is already at work in their life. It is not an inclusive statement for “everyone”, whosoever will is exclusive of all who have not received a willing heart. This language was introduced to prove that God’s grace is not guaranteed on the base of ethnic descent; or having Ambraham as a father; but rather it is given who whom God chooses to give it.

    Election does not occur for an individual at the time of faith, it happened simultaneous with the election of Christ.

    I digress

  • Kaleb,

    Your view of election is totally anti-Bible and anti-Christ and to prove it I refer you to the following,

    He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

    And please don’t tell me “world” only refers to the elect because if you do you are twisting Scripture to your own destruction. (2 Peters 3:16).

    Barnes says,

    Unto their own destruction – By embracing false doctrines. Error destroys the soul; and it is very possible for a man so to read the Bible as only to confirm himself in error. He may find passages which, by a perverted interpretation, shall seem to sustain his own views; and, instead of embracing the truth, may live always under delusion, and perish at last. It is not to be inferred that every man who reads the Bible, or even every one who undertakes to be its public expounder, will certainly be saved.

    The entire nation of Israel is God’s elect (his people) (Isaiah 45:4) and yet most of them are going to hell. (Matthew 8:12). Explain that to me, Mr. Kaleb.

  • Kimariah

    “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    “For God had promised, “I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?” No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles. Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea, “Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those whom I did not love before.” And, “Then, at the place where they were told, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’” And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, “Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:9-27‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    “You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.

    The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭15:16, 19‬ ‭NLT‬‬

    I’m not a supporter of any “isms.” I just love the word of God. (:

  • Kimariah,

    So, when you Calvinists are going to appear before God one day, you are going to say to Him, “Sorry, I am innocent. You made me do it.” First of all the parable about the Potter has nothing to do with salvation. It concerns Israel and God’s calling to be a holy nation unto Him.

    The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise.” a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. (Jer 18:1-11)

    Did you see that? God’s dealing with Israel was contingent upon their response to Him and his Word. He didn’t artbitrarily decide to save some and damn the rest before the foundation of the world. In fact, the nation of Israel as a whole is still God’s elect whether you like it or not.

    As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Rom 11:28-29).

    And yet the majority of them are going to end up in hell.

    But the children of the kingdom (Jews) shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 8:12 KJV).

    Had they obeyed Him He would have made them into a vessel of honour. As you know, and hopefully you do, the disobeyed Him which lead God to make them into a vessel of dishonour to this very day.

    And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them. (Jer 24:9).

    If you loved the Word of God you would never have misinterpreted it the way you do. You would have searched the Scriptures and gone to the place where is says “As it is written.” (Romans 9:13). It is written in Malachi 1:2-3. Paul referred to the two nations that came from Jacob and Esau and not the two individuals. Esau never served Jacob but the nation that came from him served the Jews for a time. Had it been the two individuals to whom Paul referred, God would have been a false prophet who prophesied lies.

    Calvinists always refer to the same old verses without evaluating them against the rest of the Bible. John 15:16 has nothing to do with salvation but service. He also chose Judas to be one of his disciples and look what happened to him.

    You problem is, you don’t know what the word “foreknow” means. God knew before the foundation of the world who would respond in faith to his Gospel and receive his Son as their Saviour. It is these whom He predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. It’s as simple as that.

  • Kimariah

    >> I’m not a supporter of any “isms.” I just love the word of God. (:

    You don’t have to be a supporter of ‘ism’s’ it’s about being a supporter of false teaching and it’s false teachers – the FACT IS if you loved the word of God as you say you would study it correctly and read it correctly because loving the word of God is loving Jesus Christ and not loving false teachers and their false like John Calvin.

  • Kimariah

    Tell me something, how do you know you are elect and not part of the group chosen to go to hell? You can’t tell me it’s because you accepted Jesus Christ because the P in Calvinism’s TULIP is Perseverance to the end – what happens if you don’t persevere enough? That means you are not elect, you are a reprobate.

    You may as well become a Muslim, they too are Elect but never really sure they will make it into heaven.

  • Sansha

    WOW!

    I’ve read the article awa all of the comments.(Appreciate Toddot and Burning Lamp’s comments)

    You know, deception is the traditional christian’s biggest enemy and blinds them totally from the Truth – it makes them believe their own truth because the Holy Spirit is not IN them to guide and teach them about the only real Truth.

    I can say this because I have been there – now that I have seen the Light I just want to say to the decieved – as long as you question GOD regarding His Love(John3:16) and intentions(Jer.29:11) and your first priority isn’t to worship Him (because of your rightiousness in Christ Jesus) in obedience and in faith(Heb.11:6) – you should seriously question your salvation.

    When you are born again from above you will be lead by the Spirit and everything which does not have eternal value will become unimportant.
    The only ‘thing’ you will desire from a thankful heart is to have a relationship with your Savior.

    You will be so in awe of GOD and His sacrifice of Love that you will gladly accept that He is God and you are not.

    Much love in Christ.

Leave a Reply

You can use these HTML tags

<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>

  

  

  

Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments

Only The Elect are Lost; The Reprobate are Not

Terms and Conditions:terms and conditions

Because this world is becoming more evil by the minute and Discerning the World is coming under attack more often from people with some very nasty dispositions, we now have ‘Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments‘ which you need to agree too before you can comment – this is to protect us and you when you comment on this website.  If you are not here to harm Discerning the World and it’s authors, please by all means comment, however if you are here to cause harm in any way, please don’t comment.

The following conditions does not mean that the authors of Discerning The World permit only opinions that are in agreement with us. This also does not mean that we fear dissenting opinions or ideas that are contrary to the beliefs that we hold (and/or that of the revealed Scriptures of the Holy Bible).

The following describes the Terms and Conditions applicable to your use of the “Comments” submission service at the Discerning the World website.

BY CLICKING THE “POST COMMENT” BUTTON FOR YOUR COMMENT, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND ABIDE BY ALL OF THE RULES AND POLICIES SET FORTH HEREIN. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, DO NOT SUBMIT YOUR COMMENT TO DISCERNING THE WORLD WEB SITE.

  1. Discerning the World owns and operates the DiscerningtheWorld.com site (the “Site”). Your use of the features on the Site allowing for submission of a “Comment” is subject to the following terms and conditions (the “Terms”). Discerning the World may modify these Terms at any time without notice to you by posting revised Terms on the Site. Your submission of a “Comment” to the Site following the modification of these Terms shall constitute your binding acceptance of and agreement to be bound by those modified Terms.
  2. By submitting a “Comment” you are accepting these Terms through your clicking of the “POST COMMENT” button.
  3. Discerning the World has the right, but not the obligation, to take any of the following actions, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, at any time, and for any reason or no reason, without providing any prior notice:
    1. Restrict, suspend or terminate your ability to submit “Comments,” to the Site;
    2. Change, suspend or modify all or any part of the Site or the features thereof;
    3. Refuse or remove any material posted on, submitted to or communicated through the Site by you;
    4. Deactivate or delete any screen names, profiles or other information associated with you; or
    5. Alter, modify, discontinue or remove any comment off the Site.
  4. You agree that, when using or accessing the Site or any of the features thereof, you will not:
    1. Violate any applicable law or regulation;
    2. Interfere with or damage the Site, through hacking or any other means;
    3. Transmit or introduce to the Site or to other users thereof any viruses, cancel bots, Trojan horses, flood pings, denial of service attacks, or any other harmful code or processes;
    4. Transmit or submit harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, deceptive, fraudulent, obscene, indecent, vulgar, lewd, violent, hateful or otherwise objectionable content or material;
    5. Transmit or submit any unsolicited advertising, promotional materials, or spam;
    6. Stalk or harass any user or visitor to the Site; or
    7. Use the content or information available on the Site for any improper purpose.
  5. You retain the Copyright of any “Comment” you submit to Discerning the World. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to grant Discerning the World a irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual license to use the material or commentary that you have submitted, in any medium and in any manner that Discerning the World may, in its sole unfettered discretion, choose.
  6. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to comply with the following rules concerning such submissions:
    1.  You agree not to include in your “Comment”:
      1. Any false, defamatory, libelous, abusive, threatening, racially offensive, sexually explicit, obscene, harmful, vulgar, hateful, illegal, or otherwise objectionable content;
      2. Any content that may be seen as stalking or harassing of any other Site contributors;
      3. Any content that personally attacks an individual. (An example of a personal attack is posting negative comments about an individual in a way meant to demean that person. Note that posting your opinion about someone’s ideas, doctrine or actions is not a personal attack);
      4. Any content that discloses private details concerning any person, for eg., phone numbers that have not been made public, photos that are not in the public domain, residential address that is not public, ID numbers, Social Security numbers, email addresses that are not in the public domain, etc.;
      5. Any content that you know to be false, misleading, or fraudulent;
      6. Any use of profanity;
      7. Any content including advertisements or otherwise focused on the promotion of commercial events or businesses, or any request for or solicitation of money, goods, or services for private gain;
      8. Any content that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment; or
      9. Any content directly or indirectly soliciting responses from minors (defined as anyone under 18 years of age).
  7. FAIR USE NOTICE:
    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.

DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY/LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

  • YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT USE OF THE SITE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. NEITHER DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES, NOR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, OR LICENSORS WARRANT THAT THE SITE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, TIMELY, SECURE OR ERROR FREE.
  • THE SITE IS PROVIDED ON AN “AS IS” BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF TITLE OR IMLPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
  • THIS DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY APPLIES TO ANY DAMAGES OR INJURY CAUSED BY ANY FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE, ERROR, OMISSION, INTERRUPTION, DELETION, DEFECT, DELAY, COMMUNICATION LINE FAILURE, THEFT OR DESTRUCTION OR UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO, ALTERATION OF OR USE, WHETHER FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT, TORTIOUS BEHAVIOR, NEGLIGENCE OR UNDER ANY OTHER CAUSE OF ACTION. YOU SPECIFICALLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT DISCERNING THE WORLD SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR THE DEFAMATORY, OFFENSIVE OR ILLEGAL CONDUCT OF USERS OF THE SITE OR THIRD PARTIES, AND THAT THE RISK OF INJURY FROM THE FOREGOING RESTS ENTIRELY WITH THE YOU THE COMMENTER.
  • IN NO EVENT WILL DISCERNING THE WORLD, ITS AFFILIATES OR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, AGENTS OR LICENSORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE SITE OR ANY OTHER MATTER ARISING FROM, RELATING TO OR CONNECTED WITH THE SITE OR THESE TERMS.

16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!