Mystery Babylon

Mystery BabylonMystery Babylon, Part I

By Hunt, Dave – Jul 1, 1993

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets,…how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Luke:13:34

I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore…With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication….I saw a woman…And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT….[She was] drunken with the blood of the saints, and…of the martyrs of Jesus….[She] is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth [and is built on] seven hills [i.e., Rome]. Revelation:17:1-6,18

Jerusalem and Rome! How different and yet how similar are these ancient (and current) rivals for worldwide spiritual leadership! Both figured so largely in Christ’s crucifixion and the persecution of the early church. Both are destined by God also to play dominant roles in the final events prophesied in Scripture. Antichrist will rule the world from Rome’s fabled throne of the Caesars, revived as the seat of the new world order. This “Wicked [one]” (2 Thes:2:8) will be embraced by Israel as her Messiah (Jn:5:43) when he brings peace to the Middle East and allows the temple to be rebuilt. That the stage for these coming events is already set seemed apparent to the participants in last month’s video making tour of Israel and Rome. [Emphasis added]

The fate of Jerusalem has been inextricably intertwined with that of Rome ever since they joined in unholy alliance to reject and crucify the Lord of glory (Acts:2:23; 1 Cor:2:8). That uneasy partnership was shattered with Jerusalem’s destruction by Rome’s legions in A.D. 70, foretold both by Daniel (9:26) and Jesus (Mat:24:2). The Roman Empire must be revived, for one day its armies will belong to Daniel’s “prince that shall come”-i.e., Antichrist–and will seek to destroy Jerusalem again.

The woman in Revelation 17 can only be Rome/Vatican City. No other city built on seven hills wields such authority, exchanging ambassadors with nations . Nor does any other city claim to represent Christ, and thus no other could stand accused of spiritual fornication due to unholy alliances with earth’s rulers. Neither can any other city rival the blood of both Jews and Christians which pagan Rome and later the Vatican have shed. Thomas Hobbes perceptively said, “The Papacy is…the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof.”

“In the midst of the [70th] week [seven-year tribulation]” (Dan:9:27), Antichrist will forbid further sacrifices, place his image in the temple and demand to be worshiped as God. Israel will object, bringing the armies of the entire world, under Antichrist, against her to effect a “final solution” to the Jewish problem. Accompanied by the saints of all ages in their resurrected and/or glorified bodies, Christ will intervene. Destroying Antichrist and his armies, Israel’s Messiah, at last recognized and accepted by her, will rule the world from David’s throne in Jerusalem.

Such prophecies remain hidden from Israel. The spiritual blindness of the vast majority in that land was both apparent and incomprehensible to those on our recent tour. How true is Christ’s sorrowful pronouncement: “this [rebellious (Ps:78:8), faithless and perverse (Mat:17:17), evil and adulterous (12:39, 16:4), etc.] generation [of vipers (12:34)] shall not pass, till all these things [i.e., all the prophesied signs] be fulfilled” (24:34). Only after all prophesied events have occurred (which must precede and foreshadow the Second Coming), and Christ comes visibly in power and glory to rescue her in the midst of Armageddon, will Israel at last believe (Zec:12:10). Then shall be fulfilled Christ’s words: “he that endureth to the end shall be saved” (Mat:10:22); and Paul’s: “all Israel [that have survived to the end] shall be saved” (Rom:11:26).

How astonishing it is that stubborn unbelief should persistently characterize the descendants of Abraham, the father of the faithful (Rom:4:11-16)!

“[B]lindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles…” (Rom:11:25). More than 30 percent of Israel’s Jews are atheists. Although that figure is high compared with many other countries (10 percent in the USA and Ireland, 20 percent in Italy), it is even higher among kibbutz dwellers. This communal lifestyle of Marxist origins breeds atheism. We were told by our host on a visit to a kibbutz in Galilee that out of 300 kibbutzim throughout Israel only about 15 were “religious,” atheism being the faith of all of the others, including his own.

Politely but pointedly, I asked how Israel could assert any better claim to that land than the Arabs, if God did not give it to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for “an everlasting possession” (Gen:17:8; 48:4; Ex 6:8; Joel:3:2). He had no answer. I then reminded him that Israel’s children study their history from the Bible, and asked how that Book could be 100 percent accurate when it comes to ancient names, places and events and yet 100 percent wrong about the God who its authors claim inspired their writings. Again no answer.

Interviews in the streets for the videos we shot revealed that most Israelis (including even some atheists) do expect the Messiah. Yet they have no biblical understanding of who He might be–or that the prophets said Messiah would be “cut off [killed]” (Isa:53:8; Dan:9:26, etc.) and thereafter Jerusalem and the temple destroyed (9:26)! When asked how they would recognize the Messiah, nearly all responded, “He will bring peace.” What a setup for Antichrist, of whom it is said, “By peace shall [he] destroy many” (Dan:8:25)! Sadly, the worst destruction in Israel’s history, “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer:30:7), lies ahead.

Evidence of the conquering Roman presence from Christ’s day and from Crusader times is found everywhere. Ancient ruins, neglected and even destroyed when the Arabs were in control, are being expertly restored by the Jews. A Roman presence of another nature continues in Israel to this day: the Catholicized “holy” places, where events in Jesus’ life and death allegedly took place. Rome’s presence is seen and felt also in the throngs of Catholic pilgrims who come for the indulgences and special favors from God which they’ve been taught attach to physical places and relics. One has the impression that this land is still theirs. After all, didn’t the Crusaders conquer it for Holy Mother Church?

Each holy place is marked (and marred) by the inevitable church constructed upon it. In these shrines, candles (purchase price depending upon size) burn continuously. Robed priests appear periodically at altars to repeat incantations unknown to Christ and the apostles. Reverently the faithful cross themselves and join in ceremonies believed to convey special grace because performed at a sacred site. Israel needs the money the pilgrims bring. Yet one senses an uneasy truce between Jews, who disown their own who believe in Him, and Catholics, who come to see where Jesus was crucified by Jews, forgetting the Vatican’s long persecution and slaughter of Jesus’ Jewish brethren.

The Christian church, after being granted recognition and freedom by Constantine, soon became the persecutor of all those who did not submit to its doctrines. Like Islam a few centuries later, Christianity was imposed upon the entire populace of Europe under the threat of torture and death. Christ told His disciples that whosoever would be the greatest must be the servant of all. Instead, the popes aspired to be masters of the world. Church and state joined in adulterous partnership to expand the “Holy Roman Empire” by enforcing conversion with the sword.

Persecution of Jews commenced in earnest after the popes, taking advantage of the power vacuum left when the empire fell to the barbarians, began to rule not just as ecclesiastical leaders of the church but as secular kings. Papal armies fought to expand “the Kingdom of God.” The Jews’ plight–in the name of Jesus the Jew– soon became far more grievous under the alleged Christian church than it had ever been at the hands of pagan rulers. In Vicars of Christ, Jesuit historian Peter de Rosa writes of those early days:

[Catholicism] will become the most persecuting faith the world has ever seen. They will persecute the race from which Peter–and Jesus–sprang…[and] order in Christ’s name all those who disagree with them to be tortured, and sometimes crucified over fire. They will make an alliance between throne and altar; they will insist that…the throne (the state) impose the Christian [Roman Catholic] religion on all its subjects.

A major target of conquest became “the Holy Land,” which had already been claimed by “Saint” Helena. Constantine was the father of the new Church and Helena was honored as its mother. Even before it was conferred upon Mary, the title “Mother of God” was given to Helena as the Emperor’s mother. (Every Roman emperor was worshiped as God.) This “mother of the church” journeyed to the Holy Land to buy relics and to build churches upon alleged sites of key events involving our Lord.

The Roman Catholic Church began to believe it had replaced Israel as God’s chosen people. That land, promised by God to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, now belonged, for new and holier reasons, to “Christian” Rome, the new Zion. The pagan empire had become the Holy Roman Empire, the “Kingdom of God” on earth. The hope of its revival was the dream of all Europe during the Middle Ages–a goal which will be accomplished at last by Antichrist. The revived Roman Empire over which he will rule, with enthusiastic Vatican support as in the past, will encompass the entire world.  [Emphasis added]

Without rancor we must face the facts concerning the Holy Roman Empire to understand what its revival will mean. Pagans had blamed every disaster upon Christians. Now the Church blamed all on the Jews. Accused of causing the Black Death, Jews were rounded up and hanged, burned and drowned by the thousands in revenge. Although now and then a pope sought to ameliorate their condition, there was no place for “Christ crucifiers” in God’s Holy Kingdom. More than 100 anti-Semitic documents were published by the Roman Catholic Church between the sixth and twentieth centuries. Anti-Semitism had become official Church doctrine. To this day, the Vatican has never conceded Israel’s right to exist and wants Jerusalem to be, not in Jewish hands, but under international control.  [Emphasis added]

To raise an army for the First Crusade, Pope Urban II promised instant entrance into heaven without purgatory for all who fell in that great cause. The knights and knaves who responded with enthusiasm to that deceitful promise left a trail of plunder, mayhem, and murder on their way to Jerusalem, where they slaughtered all Arabs and Jews. One of their first acts after their triumphal entry into Jerusalem was to herd the Jews into the synagogue and set it ablaze. On their way to the Holy Land, the Crusaders gave the Jews the choice of baptism or death. De Rosa recounts:

In the year 1096 half of the Jews of Worms were slaughtered as the Crusaders passed through the town. The rest fled to the bishop’s residence for protection. He agreed to save them, on condition that they asked to be baptized. The Jews retired to consider their decision. When the doors of the audience chamber were opened, all 800 Jews inside were dead. Some were decapitated; fathers had killed their babes before turning their knives on their wives and themselves; a groom had slain his bride. The first century tragedy of Masada was repeated everywhere in Germany and, later, throughout France.

Sincere followers of Christ, too, were slain by the hundreds of thousands for attempting to follow the Bible instead of Rome. What these victims suffered from Holy Mother Church is a story sad beyond belief for both persecuted and persecutors. The Inquisitors were caught in a web from which there was no escape, for the papacy did indeed “reign over the kings of the earth.” No doubt many of the zealots who carried out papal decrees were sincere. The civil authorities, moreover, feared excommunication should they fail to fulfill the Inquisitors’ demands. The facts speak volumes.

Heretics (those who felt bound by conscience to follow God’s Word) were committed to the flames because the popes believed that the Bible forbade Christians to shed blood. Victims of the Inquisition exceeded by hundreds of thousands the number of Christians (and Jews) who had been martyred under pagan Roman emperors. Catholic apologists try in vain to absolve their Church of responsibility, arguing that the sentence of death was carried out by civil authorities. Yet this transference to the “secular arm” was required by the Church’s canon law, and at the tribunal where heretics were condemned the Inquisitor’s throne was higher than that of the magistrate. The prisoner was allowed to know neither the charge against him nor the identity of his accusers. No one was ever acquitted. Torture often made the pitiful victims willing to confess to anything. Will Durant reminds us of Pope Clement V’s rebuke of King Edward II’s leniency:

We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land. But no state law can override [the Church’s] canon law, our law. Therefore I command you at once to submit those men to torture.

The medieval Inquisition had flourished for centuries when, in 1542, Pope Paul III gave it permanent status as the first of Rome’s Sacred Congregations, the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Inquisition. Known more recently as the Holy Office, its name was changed in 1967 to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith–quite appropriate, inasmuch as public burnings were known as autos-da-fé, or acts of faith. The Office operates today from the Palace of the Inquisition adjacent to St. Peter’s. The Grand Inquisitor is Cardinal Ratzinger, who reports to Pope John Paul II.  [Emphasis added]

Before he became Pope Paul IV in 1555, Inquisitor-General John Peter Carafa had converted a house at his own expense into a fully equipped torture chamber for eliciting confessions from the accused. He denounced any who tolerated heretics and declared, “If my own father were a heretic, I would personally gather the wood to burn him.” During his brief pontificate the population of Rome was decimated almost by half, with Jews the main victims. Under Paul IV, marriage between a Christian and a Jew was punishable by death. Hitler claimed only to be carrying out what the popes and Church councils had already decreed. [Emphasis added]

Paul IV forced Jews to sell their properties, confined them to ghettos, treated them as slaves and reduced them to the status of ragpickers. Pope Gregory XIII declared that the guilt of Jews in rejecting and crucifying Christ “only grows deeper with successive generations, entailing perpetual slavery.”  Later popes, such as Benedict XIV, Pius VII, Leo XII, Pius VIII, Gregory XVI, Pius IX, et al., continued the persecution of Jews. Pope Pius XII knew very well that the Nazis were systematically exterminating Jews. Yet he never spoke a public word against the Holocaust, because to do so would have condemned his own Church. This silence, historians agree, encouraged Hitler and added to the unspeakable genocide.

Jerusalem has its Yad Vashem (Holocaust Museum) to keep ever before the world’s conscience the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler. By contrast, there is no memorial to the untold multitudes of both Jews and Christians murdered by Holy Mother Church and now forgotten. De Rosa reminds us that Pope John Paul II “knows the church was responsible for persecuting Jews, for the Inquisition, for slaughtering heretics by the thousands, for reintroducing torture into Europe as part of the judicial process. But he has to be careful [not to apologize]. The doctrines responsible for those terrible things still underpin his position .” (Emphasis added)   The Vatican has never repented of these crimes against humanity and God. Of these indisputable facts many of today’s evangelical leaders seem willingly ignorant. TBC

source:  http://www.thebereancall.org/content/mystery-babylon-part-i

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Mystery Babylon, Part II

By Hunt, Dave – Aug 1 1993

And in the days of these [ten] kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed….Daniel:2:44

After this I saw…a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible…and it had ten horns….And the ten horns…are ten kings….Daniel:7:7,24

And…behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns….Revelation:12:3

And I…saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns….Revelation:13:1

I saw a woman sit[ting] upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns….And the ten horns…are ten kings….Revelation:17:3, 12

Of all the prophecies in the Bible, Revelation 17 is the most astonishing. It culminates a series of visions of four world empires, the fourth to be revived in the “last days” and ruled by Antichrist through ten subordinate “kings”-a series of visions which began 600 years earlier in Daniel 2 with Nebuchadnezzar’s image. The image’s “head of gold” was the first world empire, the Babylonian; the “breast and arms of silver” pictured the succeeding Medo-Persian Empire; next was the Grecian represented by “belly and thighs of brass”; and finally the “legs of iron, and feet [with ten toes signifying ten kings] part of iron and part of clay” depicted the fourth world empire arising out of Rome.

Daniel’s prophecy (continued in Chapters 7-12) foretold accurate details of coming world empires which we can’t enumerate. Apropos of our subject, however, the image’s two legs foretold the Roman Empire’s division into East and West. And so it happened, first politically; centuries later, religiously. Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy (which in July [1993] again gained control of religion in Russia) remain divided to this day. They will, however, be reunited as the core of Antichrist’s new world religion.

In a second vision, the four world empires were seen as beasts. The fourth had ten horns, representing, like the ten toes on the image, “ten kings” (Dan:7:24) yet to arise. The ancient Roman Empire was never ruled by a coalition of ten kings; yet so it must be when “the God of heaven sets up [his] kingdom.” Thus the Roman Empire must be revived in that form.

God’s millennial kingdom will not (as many are teaching) result from a gradual takeover of the world by the church but through a sudden catastrophic intervention by Christ from heaven. He is the stone “cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet…the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold [were] broken to pieces…and the stone…became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth” (2:34-35). Christ’s sudden intervention at Armageddon is also presented by Paul: “And then shall that Wicked [Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall…destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thes:2:8-10).  The same event is found in Zechariah 12-14, Revelation 19 and elsewhere.

The Bible ignores other empires, some of which have been larger than the four above. Why? They won’t be revived. For centuries the seat of world power was Egypt. There were great dynasties in China, Genghis Khan’s far-ranging Mongolian empire, and vast Mayan and Aztec kingdoms in Central and South America. The Arabs once controlled most of North Africa, the Middle East and much of Europe. These empires will not rise again. The United States has been the dominant industrial and military force for 50 years, but that dominance cannot continue. The prophecies are clear: the Roman Empire will be revived, with Antichrist’s seat in Western Europe and the world religion’s headquarters in Rome.

In addition to the revived Roman Empire, the ten-horned beast also depicts Satan (the “great red dragon”) and a satanically empowered man(Rev:13:4-8)
-the coming world ruler, or Antichrist. Yet it wasn’t so much the sight of this terrifying beast that took John’s breath away, but the woman who was riding him: “ MYSTERY, BABYLON .”  Babylon is not a country but a city (certainly not the United States). Nor is it the city Saddam is rebuilding in Iraq, for that historic Babylon, in ruins for 2,300 years, obviously does not meet the five criteria. Nor are there two Babylons (a spiritual one and a commercial one) shown in Revelation 17 and 18. They are one and the same.

Babylon was built around the ruins of the Tower of Babel, which, we noted in June, represented the false religion of human effort in opposition to salvation by grace through faith in Christ. It was the satanically inspired attempt to establish man as his own God. Babel’s antichrist paganism remained as the unifying factor linking the four successive world empires. And so it must be revived with the Roman Empire.

Like Nimrod at Babel, the Caesars presided over the pagan priesthood and were worshiped as God. All who refused to bow down before the emperor’s image in recognition of his deity were slain–a practice which will be reestablished under Antichrist (Rev:13:8,14-15). Most astonishing of all, “Christianity” must merge with Babel’s antichrist paganism to form the new world religion! That insight was a major reason for John’s amazement.  [Emphasis added]

That a gorgeously clad woman was holding the reins astride such a terrifying, world-devouring beast was incredible. The woman’s identity, however, staggered John far more. Beneath the erotic attire, flashy jewelry and impudent gaze there was a haunting familiarity. It couldn’t be! How had Christ’s chaste bride become this brazen whore? What alchemy had transformed that small, despised flock of humble followers of the Lamb into this notorious prostitute toasting Satan with the blood of the martyrs in a golden cup! How could the church, hated and persecuted by the world, as Christ had said she would be–how could she have become this Machiavellian despot that reigned over the kings of the earth?  [Emphasis added]

History authenticates John’s vision. The blood of the martyrs was the seed of a heavenly minded church without earthly ambition, a church whose members, increased to about 10 percent of the Roman Empire, were oppressed by the world and periodically slaughtered. Then, in AD 313, freedom from persecution came unexpectedly and suddenly under Constantine. Unfortunately, what seemed like a gift from God was a trap laid by Satan. It set the stage for an apostasy that would last more than a millennium–and is now gathering renewed momentum.

When he gave Christianity official status alongside paganism, Constantine, as emperor and “Pontifex Maximus” over the pagan priesthood known as the Pontifical College, became the de facto head of the Christian Church. As such he invented and took the title “Vicar of Christ.” Coming from the Latin vicarius , vicar means “in the place of.” Its Greek equivalent is anti . Thus the popes’ title, “Vicar of Christ,” literally means “Antichrist”-the one who pretends to be Christ. [Emphasis added]

For centuries, Protestant creeds identified the popes as antichrists. That label surely applies to the paganized Christianity over which the popes have presided as Constantine’s successors. Succeeding him also as head of Rome’s Pontifical College, the popes retain to this day the related pagan title “Pontifex Maximus.” Undoubtedly, however, the Antichrist will be the new Constantine-head of the new world order-with the Roman pontiff his right-hand man.  [Emphasis added]

Constantine, the first “Vicar of Christ,” did indeed prove to be an antichrist. Not a genuine Christian, he had no concern for doctrine but only for religious unity in his empire. The original ecumenist, he convened the first Ecumenical Council, the Council of Nicea, in AD 325, set the agenda and presided over it as Charlemagne would over the Council of Chalon 500 years later during his attempt to revive the Roman Empire. Though all such attempts failed, the popes gave the Empire continuity in religion and wielded supreme secular authority as well. Historian R. W. Southern reminds us,  [Emphasis added]

…there was in Rome a single spiritual and temporal authority [the papacy] exercising powers which in the end exceeded those that had ever lain within the grasp of a Roman Emperor.

To John’s utter amazement, he saw that the church Christ had founded would metamorphose into “that city…on seven hills…that rules over the kings of the earth”!  Picture, for example, the humbled emperor Henry IV waiting barefoot in the snows at Canossa to make his peace with Pope Gregory VII in 1077!  As noted last month, no other city in the world except Vatican City “rules over kings” and meets the other four criteria which identify the woman in Revelation 17. In the July 3, 1992 National Catholic Reporter (NCR) a Catholic priest confesses, “The church…was subverted by the ambitions of such men as [Popes] Gregory VII, Innocent III and Boniface VII [and many others] into a politico-ecclesiastical institution wielding totalitarian power in both sacred and secular fields.” Historian Walter James elaborates:

The Papacy controlled the gateway to heaven which all the faithful, including their rulers, hoped earnestly to enter….[I]t gave the Popes a moral authority which has never been wielded since. A Pope like Innocent III held all Europe in his net….

If that seven-headed beast with ten horns, the revived Roman Empire, is to appear, then the “woman” must hold the reins once again. While the Roman Catholic Church, since the Reformation, saw its supreme power challenged, it has regained much. The Vatican is a sovereign state like any nation. It exchanges ambassadors with the world’s nations and participates in international politics. The NCR boasts, “No other church has such privileged access” to top political gatherings.  [Emphasis added]

John Paul II has emerged as the world’s most respected and influential leader. Though papal power is not wielded as overtly as during the Middle Ages, yet the Pope still “rules over the kings of the earth.” Presidents Bush and Gorbachev consulted with the Pope at least once a week. President Reagan solicited the Pope’s help against communism. Using Poland as a base, agents of the Vatican worked with the CIA to bring down communism and the Berlin Wall. These amazing events, Gorbachev later confessed, could not have occurred without John Paul II.

Ecumenism is essential in creating a “Christianity” which embraces all religions. Psychology plays a major ecumenical role by providing common faith, language and ritual for everyone from atheists, cultists and occultists to Roman Catholics and evangelicals. Today the Reformation is seen as a semantic misunderstanding, its vital issues blurred or ignored. There is a growing cooperation between the National Association of Evangelicals and Roman Catholics, according to Jack White, NAE president. Even leading cult experts whitewash Rome’s heresies. Chuck Colson’s (like Billy Graham’s) embrace of Catholicism and acceptance of the Templeton Prize is one more shocking example of the growing ecumenism among evangelical leaders which is preparing the way for Antichrist. (See “Q&A” for further clarification.) Nor could a more apt pope than John Paul II have arrived upon the scene at this crucial hour.  [Emphasis added]

The centuries-long involvement of Roman Catholicism in pagan/occultic practices has led naturally to its present marriage to the New Age. Rome has made it clear that the disciplining of New Age priest Matthew Fox is for failure to submit to the hierarchy but not for his horrendous heresies (“ News Alerts.” ) Fox continues as a priest with a huge following among Catholics. The involvement in Eastern mysticism of tens of thousands of priests, nuns, and laity is condoned by the Vatican.

We have documented the accelerating secular acceptance of New Age “spirituality” such as Nancy Reagan’s obsession with astrology and President Reagan’s submission to astrological guidance and his own superstitions. Matters have only gotten worse with the new administration. Bill and Hillary Clinton’s and Al Gore’s commitment to an amoral, humanistic and New Age agenda is well known. That all three claim to be “Christians” fits the fact that the world religion will be an antichrist “Christianity.”

Time magazine recently had a picture of Hillary Clinton with eyes closed, head reverently bowed, as a North American Indian shaman performed a ritual over her. Concluding a recent speech, Hillary declared, “Let us be willing to remold society by redefining what it means to be a human being in the twentieth century, moving into a new millennium.” Yes, the Clintons intend to “remold society” and to “redefine what it means to be a human being”!

Part of that remolding involves promoting ungodly lifestyles. The consequences are devastating and worsening. Raw statistics condemn the Clintons’ encouragement of homosexuality. The median age of death for married heterosexual men is nearly twice that of homosexuals: 75 compared with 39. Only 1 percent of homosexuals live beyond age 65. The average age of death for married women is 79 compared with 45 for lesbians ( Christian News, 1/13/92). Secular studies have demonstrated that living together before marriage increases the likelihood of divorce–exactly the opposite of what those who engage in “safe sex” imagine ( The Baptist Challenge, 10/92).

Our world is fast ripening for God’s judgment. Consider a simple comparison between the seven leading problems in “Christian” America’s schools in the 1940s and the 1990s. Fifty years ago the worst problems faced by teachers and administrators were 1) talking in class, 2) chewing gum, 3) making noise, 4) running in halls, 5) cutting in line, 6) dress code violations, 7) littering. Today they are 1) drug abuse, 2) alcohol abuse, 3) pregnancy, 4) suicide, 5) rape, 6) robbery, 7) assault. How revealing!

Everywhere youth is bombarded not only with evil but with persuasively presented antichrist philosophies. A recent TV series began with Indiana Jones as a boy in India going to the Theosophical Society to meet founder Annie Besant. There he was introduced to Jidhu Krishnamurti, the “chosen world leader”; he then was taken to various Hindu and Buddhist temples. Christianity was degraded and Jesus was put on the level of all other “religious leaders.” Behold an even more insidious effort by George Lucas to indoctrinate the West into shamanism than even the Star Wars series of films!

Christians face two dangers: 1) becoming so immunized to apostasy that it seems normal and no longer alarming; 2) becoming discouraged and deciding that there is no use in standing up to such overwhelming evil. Yes, the stage is set for Antichrist. He will take over the world. False “Christianity” will deceive billions. The Bible says so. We will not save the world or even America. But we can rescue countless individuals through prayer, godly example and the proclamation of the gospel. Let us do so!  [Emphasis added] TBC

source:  http://www.thebereancall.org/content/mystery-babylon-part-ii

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[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

I see the Pope has resigned…interesting.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

TC

What I find so FUNNY is that I knew this was going to happen over a year ago, yet the Vatican claim ‘SURPRISE’ (they say they had ‘no idea’) errrr… like, really?

Paul (Continue in His Word)

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Now, onto the subject of the article.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I believe that this verse identifies MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, The Great Whore, as THE Mother of ALL Abominations of the earth.

Now, the Bible clearly identifies Roman Catholicism as being MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, The Great Whore, THE Mother of ALL Abominations of the earth.

That being established, I find it NOT surprising (as seems to be the case with the author of this article) that Calvinism is nothing more that one of the millions Daughters of the Great Whore.
Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Calvinism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnessism, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, you-name-it (all the -ism, ALL the abominations of the earth): They all have but one Mother, Mystery, Babylon the Great.

For example, follow this link to see how Rome started Islam (not an endorsement, use discernment at all times. It might not be all truth, but it only corroborates Rev 17:5. Comic book “The Prophet”
by Alberto Rivera) http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/0117_allinone.asp

Redeemed

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Paul (Continue in His Word) wrote:

Now, onto the subject of the article.
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.I believe that this verse identifies MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, The Great Whore, as THE Mother of ALL Abominations of the earth.
Now, the Bible clearly identifies Roman Catholicism as being MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, The Great Whore, THE Mother of ALL Abominations of the earth.
That being established, I find it NOT surprising (as seems to be the case with the author of this article) that Calvinism is nothing more that one of the millions Daughters of the Great Whore.
Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Calvinism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnessism, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, you-name-it (all the -ism, ALL the abominations of the earth): They all have but one Mother, Mystery, Babylon the Great.
For example, follow this link to see how Rome started Islam (not an endorsement, use discernment at all times. It might not be all truth, but it only corroborates Rev 17:5. Comic book “The Prophet”
by Alberto Rivera) http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/0117_allinone.asp

All the “isms” listed certainly come from the same source, HOWEVER, there is a MAJOR difference!

The pagan religions and the cults are much more easily recognized as such. But the error of Calvinism/Reformed is MUCH more subtle and so easily missed by so many. That makes it much more dangerous!

Even so-called discerners who readily expose false teachers but miss the greater deception of Calvinism/Reformed. They link to and fellowship with share platforms with “discerners” who are Calvinist as if it doesn’t matter!

The viciousness and rancor and downright hatred that emanates from the Calvinist/Reformed community toward those who question their doctrine is astounding! This is one of the most evil doctrines of all because it contains an element of truth, but damning lies.

Also, the link to Chick Publications should carry a disclaimer. Some of their tracts are fine, but others are not helpful and even detrimental. There are much better sources.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

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Yeah I would not trust anything from Chick publications – dodgy dodgy dodgy!

Paul (Continue in His Word)

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Redeemed wrote:

Also, the link to Chick Publications should carry a disclaimer. Some of their tracts are fine, but others are not helpful and even detrimental. There are much better sources.

I was careful to put a disclaimer in (“not an endorsement, use discernment at all times.”) before the link in case you didn’t notice.
For example, it appears from the comic that Alberto does not believe in the rapture.

Redeemed

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Paul (Continue in His Word) wrote:

Redeemed wrote:
Also, the link to Chick Publications should carry a disclaimer. Some of their tracts are fine, but others are not helpful and even detrimental. There are much better sources.I was careful to put a disclaimer in (“not an endorsement, use discernment at all times.”) before the link in case you didn’t notice.
For example, it appears from the comic that Alberto does not believe in the rapture.

Paul, anytime anyone gives a link as a reference for the reader, it does not matter if it is stated that it is “not an endorsement”. If a reliable source is not available, we should not send someone to a site that might cause them to stumble. I see some discernment sites that do this and it is risky business.

You call Deborah to task for printing an article and proceed to pick the author to pieces, but apparently you frequent the Chick site. Looks like a mixed message.

Marion

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Oh Carolyn…you are right…about comment #161 leaving you choking; it’s almost unbelievable, isn’t it? [Edited: this comment stems from comments made here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/03/13/dave-hunt-and-the-book-the-power-of-the-spirit/#comments%5D

Your Scripture reference, Matt. 13:27-31 I would agree with in this…we cannot KNOW who the true wheat is; those who we may think of as tares, might actually be weak wheat. When it comes to preachers/teachers/prophets, we have, however, been given guidelines for discerning those who would work evil amongst us, wolves, and wolves in sheep’s clothing. These seem to me to be somewhat different.

Unfortunately, there are those who obviously think I wrote what I did lightly. Not so…it is with a heart filled with grief, born from a journey from deception through the shock and horror of the truth, which has given way over the past 3 years to righteous anger; knowing others must be warned. I have clearly seen SOME of the devils schemes and tactics and am burdened to share those things with the brethren, out of love for them, and our ONLY Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. So allow me to share where this has all come from.

My story: Three and one/half years ago, I read Roger Oakland’s “Faith Undone” and Warren Smith’s “A Wonderful Deception.” GOD used these books of “false teachers” to open my eyes to the deception that had worked it’s way into my church’s and my own life…Rick Warren and “The Purpose Driven Life.” It was these books that showed the extensive, behind the scenes alliances of various “christian” groups with the new age and other anti-christ ideologies….causing me to ask, “what’s going on here?” I did my own checking and was able to confirm the facts of what these men had reported. I asked the Lord, “how did this happen?” (will answer that later – it is the place of safety) I was in a deep depression for three months. When the Lord rescued me from my despair, I began to wonder about those whose preaching/books, etc. had influenced my Christian life. I researched them all and did LOTS of reading…and was shocked to find they were all corrupt…finding one, led to another, and another and another…the utter shock and overwhelming depth of deception only led to more and more digging…of all kinds. Here’s an example…David Jeremiah (CNP), (Brannon Howse worldview weekend speaker), pastor of Shadow Mountain Community Church (previously pastored by Tim LaHaye (CNP) http://anothervoicerev184.blogspot.com/2009/11/david-jeremiah-and-his-all-seeing-eye.html

Due to some bewildering email exchanges with Roger Oakland, I realized I was “trusting” him, and had never “looked into” him. Who is he…really? (I asked him, and never got an answer) I had neglected to look into the very ones who were doing the “warning” because they were the “good guys”…right? I thought I was beyond being surprised by anything…I was wrong. In November 2011 who Roger was became apparent, as well as Michael Hoggard, another deceiver (these are documented on Deb’s site under the Roger Oakland tag). No one knows the agony I suffered, as night and day, I sought the Lord and with horror, continued to research. To sarcastically comment that perhaps I had never been mistaken or deceived was an unexpected blow, especially from one who I’m sure has suffered through the same horrors that research brings, as we not only learn ourselves, but consider the impact on the thousands of lost and saved alike! I have merely shared with others the heart-wrenching research I have done, birthed from a place of deep pain, shock, and yes, HUMILITY. Without humility we cannot know the truth…this begins with admitting our weakness, error and sin before a Holy God, and asking “is this possibly true…have I been deceived?” “please show me the truth”…a good and Holy God, who THEN…is able to cleanse, and GRACIOUSLY and TENDERLY teach and rebuild…because upon my firm foundation of Jesus Christ, there had been many that I had allowed to “build” into my life.

The Apostle Paul said, “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also OF YOUR OWN selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore WATCH, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn EVERY ONE NIGHT AND DAY with tears.” (Acts 20:29-31) (caps mine)

I ask this…if that was the danger to the church, in it’s infancy…just WHAT do we think the enemy has been able to accomplish in 2000 years? Yes, Carolyn…the reality of it all is absolutely MIND-NUMBING!

You ask, “Is there any one left to listen to?” After Paul’s warning, here’s what he said:
“And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the WORD OF HIS GRACE, WHICH IS ABLE TO BUILD YOU UP, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.” (Acts 20:32) (caps mine)

We are deceived because we esteem the words of men ABOUT the Bible above or even, instead of, the Word of God alone.
Why are “worldview” conferences able to deceive? If we want a “Christian worldview”, all we need to do is open our Bibles. But God’s people have become a lazy people, preferring to be spoon-fed…by men…and we don’t REALLY know who they are. There are no shortage of those who presume to want to tell Christians how to think and what to believe. This is dangerous. Those held out as “godly” teachers of the word, may not be…that pronouncement cannot be made, save by the great Judge and God our Father. But we have been given ways that we may find out WHO desires to teach (and lead) us, and we MUST BEWARE. We are told many times in the Word of God…”be not deceived.”

Where can we learn? I can share what the Lord has shown me, something we all know, really:
(caps mine)
“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not LIVE by bread alone, BUT BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the MOUTH OF GOD.” (Matt 4:4)

“THY word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psalm 119:105)

“Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But HIS DELIGHT is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate DAY and NIGHT.
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.” (Psalm 1:1-4)

Peter exhorts us:
“AS newborn babes, DESIRE the sincere milk OF THE WORD, that ye may grow thereby;
IF so be ye have tasted that THE LORD IS GRACIOUS.” (1 Peter 2:2-3)

In 2 Tim 3 Paul talks about the perilous times coming in the last days.
After he warns…”But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.” (2Tim. 3:13)
He says, “But continue thou in the things which thou has learned and has been assured of, knowing of whom thou has learned them;
And that from a child thou HAST KNOWN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS:
That the man of God MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED unto good works.” (2 Tim. 3:14-17)

Jesus said, “Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
And she had a sister called Mary, which ALSO SAT AT JESUS’ FEET, and HEARD HIS WORD.
BUT Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to hm, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou are careful and troubled about many thingas:
BUT ONE THING IS NEEDFUL; AND MARY HEATH CHOSEN THAT GOOD PART, WHICH SHALL NOT BE TAKEN AWAY FROM HER.” (Luke 10:38-42)

May we be able to say with Jeremiah, “THY WORDS were found, and I did eat them; and THY WORD was unto me the JOY AND REJOICING OF MINE HEART: for I am called by THY NAME, O LORD God of hosts.” (Jer. 15:16)

PS…may I share something else I’ve learned? Since I’ve asked the Lord to show me the places I have been deceived, with error taught by men, He has been faithful. May I encourage you…take a look at EVERYTHING you have been taught and think you KNOW regarding your faith in Jesus Christ. SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES ALONE! Apart from the sure foundation of the true gospel, EVERYTHING ought be open to re-examination in light of the millennia of deception at work. We have been taught to see the Scriptures through various templates which are not Scriptural, or to divide the word in ways that are not “rightly.” We ALL have been taught LIES. I am not about to share any of what I’ve uncovered; some teachings have been affirmed…others…not so much; the understanding of MANY things, is quite honestly…WRONG. There is much “unravelling” to do, and I do not have all the answers packaged up neatly and tied with a bow; anyone who thinks they do, is seriously mistaken. I seek only God’s truth, and from Him alone. In fact, the unravelling, has only led to more questions…which I take to Him, and in His time…understanding comes.
(hint: “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” is not the Roman Catholic Church…study out the words, “harlot, harlots, harlot’s, whore, whoredoms”…Rev. 17:18 says “she” is a city…”she” is not Rome…what do you see?…you will be puzzled…you will have more questions…as do I)

“I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that NO LIE is of the truth. (1 Jn. 2:21) (think Law, Boehme)

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is TRUTH, and is no LIE, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. ” (1 Jn. 2:27)

“And we know that we are of God, AND THE WHOLE WORLD LIETH IN WICKEDNESS.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may KNOW him that is true, and we are IN HIM that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1Jn. 5:19-20)

“But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Now UNTO HIM THAT IS ABLE to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the ONLY WISE GOD our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.” (Jude 20-25)

Deborah (Discerning the World)

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Marion

>> (hint: “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” is not the Roman Catholic Church…study out the words, “harlot, harlots, harlot’s, whore, whoredoms”…Rev. 17:18 says “she” is a city…”she” is not Rome…what do you see?…you will be puzzled…you will have more questions…as do I)

Really??? So who do you claim it is then? I am interested to hear this because I know there are people who claim otherwise…

Marion

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Debs…regarding Mystery Babylon…do the study…see what you find. GOD through the prophets, is the one who CLEARLY states who “she” is. If the voice from heaven says, “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” (Rev. 18:4-5)…then SURELY it is important for us to recognize her. No?

It is understandable how the RCC and Rome can be mistaken for “her”, and that is where we have been “taught” to look.

I say, it is past time for God’s people, in light of EXTENSIVE corruption and deception, to forget “teachers”, and to search out these matters for themselves in the Scriptures ALONE. You are asking me for answers…instead of looking for yourself…do the study…it’s a small one, will take no time at all. What do YOU see?

We are exhorted to “Study to shew thyself approved UNTO GOD, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the word of truth.” (2 Tim. 2:15)(caps mine)

I will give more Scripture to look into…for those who bother to seek for themselves and see what is there…but no answers…I’m still searching myself. You say, “I know there are people who claim otherwise…” I no longer care what “people” claim. I am only interested in shewing myself approved unto God. I seek the truth, and will stand alone, if no one join me.

Believe me (or not)…we have ALL been massively deceived…and don’t even see it. STUDY!

Paul (Continue in His Word)

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Is Marion saying that “she”, the city, is THE CITY that everyone of us reading this is, by now I suppose, having in mind?
Please explain Marion. Explain. I too am interested to hear this.

Paul (Continue in His Word)

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We know that Babylon is present day Irak (or part of it)

Deborah (Discerning the World)

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Marion

I do not need to do a study to find out that it’s not, as I know for a fact (THROUGH STUDY) it’s the Vatican and all it’s worth, are you implying it’s JERUSALEM? Because there is a terrible false gospel out there that stipulates just this.

Paul (Continue in His Word)

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Surely Rome or the Vatican or litteral Babylon are not mentioned in Bible prophecy as “whore” or “harlot”.

From my search, the OT prophecy that seems closest to the whore of Rev 17 is Nahum 3:4:
—–
Nah 3:4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.
Nah 3:5 Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame.
Nah 3:6 And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock.
Nah 3:7 And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence shall I seek comforters for thee?
Nah 3:8 Art thou better than populous No, that was situate among the rivers, that had the waters round about it, whose rampart was the sea, and her wall was from the sea?
Nah 3:9 Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength, and it was infinite; Put and Lubim were thy helpers.
Nah 3:10 Yet was she carried away, she went into captivity: her young children also were dashed in pieces at the top of all the streets: and they cast lots for her honourable men, and all her great men were bound in chains.
—–
Now, we know that Nahum prophesies on Nineveh (Nah 1:1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.)

Marion: Is it Nineveh? What is present day Nineveh?

Other “cities” that are called “whore” or “harlot” in OT prophecies are Jerusalem, Tyre, Samaria, Judah and Israel.
(I thought if I would add Babylon to this list, that would make exactly 7 “cities”. We know that the whore sits on seven mountains)

P.S.

The Lord recently opened my eyes to see that my Gravatar was promoting Intel Corp, who by the way just joined ranks with other major corporations to pressure the US Supreme Court to Constitutionalize the so-called marriage for sodomites (see

Therefore I had to change the Gravatar image I’ve been using for more than 17 years. Thank you Lord for your patience in leading us into truth.

Redeemed

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John Chingford has posted this to his section on YouTube regarding Revelation 17. This is most interesting and fully answers the question as far as I am concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6DjaC_HztE

Carolyn

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Just some thoughts:

@ Redeemed : Mystery Babylon….excellent video on the Great Whore by John Chingford. There are other possibilities, one being America…which I submit for consideration: [EDIT: URL REMOVED]

I think that Rome embodies the ecumenical, religious aspect of Mystery Babylon but there is the political/economic (merchants of the earth, seaports, etc) that doesn’t fit the Vatican.

Marion

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Redeemed, Carolyn and John…Regarding the statement, “Mystery Babylon….excellent video on the Great Whore by John Chingford. There are other possibilities, one being America…which I submit for consideration.”

It needs to be addressed that the video by John, who rightly condemns the idea of the Bible containing “codes” in the works of others…claims in that video that the book of Revelation uses “codes, ” amongst other devices to get the message across. Surely, we can agree that the use of symbolism is present, but not “codes.” I do not believe that the Apostle John, who had been boiled in oil and survived and was exiled to Patmos, would shrink from declaring the plain truth of God as it was revealed to him; fearing man and death was “not his thing.”

When God issues the command to “come out of her. (“that great city” Rev. 17:18; the great whore, Mystery Babylon, Rev. 17: 4-6) my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” (Rev. 18:4); I believe it is understood that His people will know who that is…because she has been identified in SCRIPTURE. This is a command that God expects us to obey…we can’t be guessing!

There are claims of Rome and even American has been submitted for consideration. Rather than looking on “appearances”, kindly show me ANY SCRIPTURE that backs up these theories. “She” is identified in Scripture…which I had challenged the readers to find. But, rather than being a “workman that needeth not be ashamed” and “rightly dividing the word of TRUTH”…you have directed God’s people to the works and opinions of men, no matter the sincerity of the effort; this is not what the Bereans were commended for. Let me say, I do believe Rome/papacy is a primary player in this end-time drama…beast/anti-christ, possibly…but Rome (RCC) CANNOT be the “beast kingdom” AND the “whore”…the “beast” destroys the “whore” (Rev. 17:16).

DO THE STUDY…look up, in context, through the Scriptures, “harlot”, “harlot’s”, “whore”, “whoredoms” “adultery”…WHAT DO YOU SEE? The Scriptures tell us plainly…there are no secrets.

Here are a few other important Scriptures to get you started.

Revelation17 through 19:3
Ezekiel chapter 8
Ezekiel chapter 16
Jeremiah 2 – 3:3
and finally…what did Jesus say?….
Luke 13:34-35

What do the Scriptures say?

BTW…doing a short study of the phrase “that great city” or “the great city” in the book of Revelation…is…a revelation!

Once you’ve done the research, I’m willing to talk about it.
I’m not here to give anyone answers or my opinion, or tell you what I’ve found; but to encourage all to get into the Word, yourself – the answers ARE there! When you see it, it will encourage you to keep on digging; have your own mind convinced by the Word and the Spirit, rather than being “children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Eph. 4:14)…children are “spoon-fed”. Sometimes, answers will only create more questions, whereby if you dig, you will find those answers as well. Some may not bother, convinced they know it all and can’t possibly STILL be deceived about anything; that is sad…(so I thought at one time also)…because “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” (James 4:6b) Those who seek the truth will find the treasure they are looking for.

ENJOY your time in the Word!

Deborah (Discerning the World)

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Marion

So it’s clear that you see Jerusalem as being a whore, the harlot, the ‘she’ of Revelation. I asked you this before and you refused to answer me, because I know where you are going with this.

Tell me, is Jerusalem going to be totally destroyed during the tribulation? Is God going to destroyed Jerusalem (His Holy City) with fire from heaven the same way He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? (Revelation 18:18; 16:17-21)

Revelation 18:9-19
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Redeemed

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I feel the need to correct something that I must have not make clear. The video I mentioned posted to Youtube was not BY John Chingford, but POSTED there by him. I am not sure who the gentleman is in the video.

I thought he backed up what he said with Scripture.

Marion, I will take a closer look as you suggested, but I do believe that not all is revealed to us and some things will remail a mystery until they are unveiled. What we need to know will be evident to the discerning.

Redeemed

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Marion, I have read the scriptures you listed. But they only create a bigger question because they seem to be lifted out of context and selected to specifically drive your obvious point that Jerusalem is harlot of Revelation.

And your final reference to the words of Jesus truly reveal the inaccuracy of your view.
He was speaking of Jerusalem, but it was a different time, not current history. Jerusalem is a city precious to the Lord. He instructs us to pray for peace there. Yes, He has allowed it to be utterly destroyed by invading forces, but that does not support the view that Jerusalem is the city of Revelation 17.

There are factions today who make Israel out to be a villain and their hands are certainly not clean, but they are not the ones who are the aggressors, but rather the defenders against the foes who are killing masses of people.

How do you interpret Ezekiel 16: 60-63?

Is the lens through which you view the history of God’s dealing with His people dispensational or otherwise? Marion, that is an important key.

I fail to comprehend how a study of the Scriptures can lead one to narrow their scope when the entire world is involved with many nations and certainly the blasphemies of the Roman Catholic Church far outweigh those of the Jewish people as rebellious as they have been throughout history. Have you studied the bloody history of Rome and considered the vast influence she holds in not only the religious world, but the economic as well?

I realize I have not been as throrough in the response as I would like, but time constraints don’t permit me to go deeper at this point.I am certainly not a Bible scholar or teacher, but certain things are clear to me. But hopefully this has raised enough to chew on for a bit.

Carolyn

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Marion, please listen. There are many Bible centred teachers who have also studied and prayerfully considered what they are teaching. The moment we become isolated, separating ourselves for special revelation is the moment we become fair game for deceiving spirits. Check out some of the cult leaders and cult followers who have been convinced by autonomous revelation and you will see that they thought themselves above other Christians because of special divine wisdom or revelation. We compare, we humble ourselves, we pray and we discern truth. Even you are developing your own brand of strange teachings, teachings by man/woman by what you are suggesting. Get back to the word in context and fellowship with other believers. No man/woman is an island. Accepting our own propensity to error is the first step in the right direction.

Redeemed

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Carolyn wrote:

Just some thoughts:
@ Redeemed : Mystery Babylon….excellent video on the Great Whore……There are other possibilities, one being America…which I submit for consideration: [EDIT: URL REMOVED]

YIKES! Carolyn, I went to this article and then to the Redmoon Rising site referenced. WHAT A BUNCH OF BUNK – CRAZINESS! I would hate to see anyone go to this link – Debs, I would disable the hyperlink. They are into all kinds of weird stuff – books about the 2nd coming of the antichrist – healing rooms, it goes on and on. Speaking of healing rooms, this is something that our own personal physician, a well-meaning compassionate Christian promotes to his patients.

Their hypothesis that the U.S. is Babylon I have heard before from others and after looking into them and their sites, they are kooks. I would not suggest anyone seriously consider that opinion. Not saying that the U.S. does not have a role, but this is global and the power of the U.S. is dwindling, rather than increasing.

There are many things in Revelation that are not clear and we have to trust the Lord that He reveals only what we really need to know. Perhaps he wants us to keep our focus on the truths that are so clear in the Word and just know that there will be strange things come upon the earth and leave it at that. There is a tendency to get caught up in signs and wonders and the website referenced is a wide portal to same.

Carolyn, your rebuke to Marion was well said about special revelation. Without rightly dividing the Word, one can get off on tangents that are harmful and not helpful. Our main concern should be holding fast to the truth, snatching people from the fire and sharing the Gospel, knowing the time is short and keeping uppermost in our minds the imminent return of our Lord. These are indeed perilous times.

John Chingford

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Hi Redeemed, Carolyn, Marion et al.

Just to clarify. The video I posted was NOT my video. I do not know who the speaker is. Probably 90 plus % I agree with everything he said. My only reservation is some of his choice of words, such as “codes”. However, the purpose of the video was to illustrate that the Roman organisation IS the whore mentioned in Revelation NO QUESTION. The article in which I posted the link to that video went to great lengths to prove this. The video was just placed within the article to support the argument.

You can read the evidence why the Catholic church fulfils the whole of scripture OT and NT within these links:

[removed] As well as the 2 videos shown on that article please check out the other 2 links contained within it.

Please also check out this other article which goes to big lengths to illustrate how ONLY Rome satisfies FULLY all the prophesies about the whore [removed]

Carolyn

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Redeemed…Babylon is Satan’s system of religion that rules the world’s economic and political spheres. Always has. The many faces of the Isis, has shown up worldwide with the same face, different names…today in the world nothing is as it seems so it will be difficult to see all the details until prophecy is fulfilled…then we’ll see just how accurate it really was. So what is the city that get’s burned? Don’t know for sure, but New York seems a good possibility from my perspective…but that’s a topic for another day.

Ya…everyone and everything seems to be connected to the absurd, the weird and the apostate or the bad, the good and the ugly. If we go anywhere on the internet, we must have our guard up. Everything must be carefully assessed in the light of Scripture.

My caution to Marion was because I care about her. We are all gullible sheep needing to be reminded that the wolves are circling and the deceptive spirits are waiting to guide. It takes a lifetime to learn and discern. There are no fast tracks to the Christian walk of faith. No special conduits of revelation except false ones. God guides those who patiently seek him, endure through hardship and faithfully follow Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Marion

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Carolyn, Redeemed…I’m glad you took the time to do some reading.
However your claim that Scripture was taken out of context to prove a point is erroneous. These were only SOME Scriptures. There are many…did you do the harlot study? What we are to do is not just look around the world around us to define Scripture…i.e. Catholic Church/Rome/Papacy. But we are to compare Scripture with Scripture. The Bible is truth and prophecy from beginning to end. It is a complete picture of the will and work of God…it is not a “divided” work. There is CONTINUITY! There are CONNECTIONS!

ALSO your charge of “special revelation” is false…I clearly stated that I was merely studying out the Scripture…ALL of Scripture. I receive no “special revelation” and have never claimed to have.

Notice the ideas, themes, words, descriptors of the verses below; they are connected…even across time, from Old Testament through the New. They cannot be denied or ignored. However, they can, through sophistry be explained away. I prefer to allow the Word to speak; for Scripture to DEFINE Scripture:

Jesus said, “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them IN THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS.
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which KILLED THE PROPHETS.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Wherefore behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them YE SHALL KILL and CRUCIFY; and SOME OF THEM SHALL YE SCOURGE IN YOUR SYNAGOGUES, AND PERSECUTE them from city to city.
That upon you may come ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH, from the BLOOD of RIGHTEOUS Abel unto the BLOOD of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom YE SLEW between the temple and the altar.
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, THOU THAT KILLEST THE PROPHETS, AND STONEST THEM WHICH ARE SENT UNTO THEE, how often would I have gathered thy children together , even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not?
Behold, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Matt 23:29-39)

When Jesus said, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which KILLEST THE PROPHETS, AND STONEST THEM THAT ARE SENT UNTO THEE, how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brook under her wings, and ye would not? Behold, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 13:34-35) (caps mine)

can you not see that He was talking about MYSTERY Babylon who is described here…

“And the woman was arryed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
And I saw the woman DRUNKEN with the BLOOD OFF THE SAINTS, and WITH THE BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS OF JESUS:…”(Rev. 27:4-6a) (caps mine in verse 6)

Again in Rev. …for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS; for God hath AVENGED YOU ON HER.” (Rev. 18:19b-20) (caps mine)

…”for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And IN HER was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, AND OF SAINTS, AND OF ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.” (Rev. 19:23b-24) (caps mine)

“And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory , and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
For true and righteous are his judgments: for HE HEATH JUDGED THE GREAT WHORE, WHICH DID CORRUPT THE EARTH WITH HER FORNICATION, and hath AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS SERVANTS AT HER HAND.” (Rev. 19:1-30) (caps mine)

There are not verses used out of context…remember I said to read IN CONTEXT…BUT…these snippets are pulled out to emphasize the fact that the Scripture expose Jerusalem as the harlot is what the Scriptures are teaching, by it’s very clear and precise use of word and descriptors; these Scriptures and related and connected.

In Jeremiah’s words from the Lord directed to Jerusalem (Jer 2:2), the Lord has Jeremiah tell “her”…”Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou has not been lien with. In the ways has thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou has polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and THOU HADST A WHORE’S FOREHEAD, thou refusedst to be ashamed.” (Jer. 3:2-3) Please DO read the rest of the chapter…

NOWHERE in Scripture is any other CITY (notice the great whore is a city – Rev. 17:18) said to have a “harlot’s forehead.”
NOWHERE in Scripture is Rome called (identified) a harlot.
NOWHERE in Scripture is any other city held responsible and condemned for the blood of the prophets and ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED UPON THE EARTH.

Rather than studying out the Scriptures regarding these matters, your argument falls back on “men” and the “dispensational” viewpoint and teachings. In my Christian experience I have been “brought up” in the “dispensational tradition.” BUT dispensationalism is a man-made system for dividing the Scriptures, which is not infallible…it was NOT given to us by God as truth in His Scriptures… and ALL of Christiandom has been taught to use this “system” and this “method of interpretation” to “divide the Word of truth”…I do not rely on this or any other “template” through which I am “told” I “ought to” “interpret Scripture.” Your comments imply that The Holy Spirit is not adequate to enlighten the people of God. I believe in the sufficienty of Scripture to enable one to have understanding through the simple reading, and comparing Scripture with Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit. If you would like to prove me wrong…please do so…with SCRIPTURE…not the words, ideas, or systems of men, whose teachings have spread like leaven, which have been accepted without question.

It was while seeking end-time understanding, and not simply reading Revelation, that I went to the Old Testament for clarity. Each “testament” sheds light upon the other. How many of us have been “taught” to more or less disregard the Old Testament as relevant for us in this “age of grace?” Hence, we can only put together some of the “puzzle” when some of the pieces are “not so important”…we then will never see the “whole picture.”

BESIDES…IS it such a stretch that Jerusalem is the “whore” and will be destroyed? (there is a “new” one waiting in the heavens – Rev. 21) After all, the anti-christ shall deceive many upon the earth, so much so, that the Jews will see him as their long-awaited “messiah”…AND…just WHERE is he going to set up that kingdom do you suppose? He will USE Jerusalem and then he will be used to destroy her (just another of her idolatries…having rejected the TRUE Messiah for another) (Rev. 17:16)

AGAIN…do your own study…we MUST put aside and examine EVERYTHING we thought we knew, and see if it is so.
Study out throughout the Scriptures, “harlot”, “harlot’s”, “whore”, “whoredom/s”, even “adultery”.
Study out in the Book of Revelation, “the great city”, “that great city”.

Forget what all the “they” say…
WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURES???

John Chingford

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Hi Carolyn,

You said “I think that Rome embodies the ecumenical, religious aspect of Mystery Babylon but there is the political/economic (merchants of the earth, seaports, etc) that doesn’t fit the Vatican.”

Why would it not fit the Vatican? It actually more-so fits the Vatican than any other nominees. Just do a google maps search on “vatican city” and notice how very close it is to the Sea. It is closer to the sea than Jerusalem is, much closer to the sea than Babylon is, or any other suggested country. It PERFECTLY fits the description of:

“For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.” Rev 18:17-19

If you look at the map, you can easily visualise the merchants of the sea clearly seeing the smoke of the vatican city rising up, as they look from their ships.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Marion

>> BESIDES…IS it such a stretch that Jerusalem is the “whore” and will be destroyed? (there is a “new” one waiting in the heavens – Rev. 21) After all, the anti-christ shall deceive many upon the earth, so much so, that the Jews will see him as their long-awaited “messiah”…AND…just WHERE is he going to set up that kingdom do you suppose? He will USE Jerusalem and then he will be used to destroy her (just another of her idolatries…having rejected the TRUE Messiah for another) (Rev. 17:16)

Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? Just asking. Because they too believe the Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem and they too believe it’s not such a big stretch of the imagination to think so because there is a NEW one waiting in the heavens.

John Chingford

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Hi Marion

In your study, did you notice that Nineveh was ALSO called “the great City”?

Jonah 1:2
Jonah 3:2
Jonah 4:11

Whenever scripture repeats something 3 times it is usually because an important point is being made. What is God telling us? God is surely showing that a gentile City can also be considered as great. Nineveh was similar to Nimrod and his kingdom and was the centre of idolatry and mystery religion (received from Babylon). It was a symbol of God’s future judgement of a similar type set up of a city (country) based on pagan worship. Nineveh was spared because of repentance, but the whore of Revelation will NOT be spared. There is no other country existing nor ever has been that has been birthed in idolatry such as the Vatican City (which has actually been given recognition as a separate country in its own right and is (as I am informed) the eighth hill of Rome, but part of Rome.

The Vatican City is clearly an illustration of the “great City” Nineveh.

John Chingford

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

Marion,

You said:

“”for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And IN HER was found THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, AND OF SAINTS, AND OF ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH.” (Rev. 19:23b-24) (caps mine)”

Please advise when Jerusalem was EVER responsible for “ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH”. But ….. The Catholic institution DOES DOES DOES fulfil those words throughout the dark ages. Please do not just read part of verses or passages but pleae consider EVERYTHING within the verses. If a part of it does not qualify Jerusalem then you cannot apply any of it to Jerusalem.

John Chingford

[Edit: Comment moved from Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

cont….

Besides, Jesus said “you will not see me again UNTIL you say “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”. Many books of the Bible (a large study all of its own) state that a time will come when Israel will be restored as a nation and its people “look upon me whom they have pierced and mourn for HIM”.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Romans 9-11 ALL talk about this time when the time of the GENTILES comes to an end and the Jews receive their messiah. Jesus stated the word “UNTIL” meaning that there WILL be a time when the inhabitants of Jerusalem WILL repent. Jesus never said that Jerusalem would be destroyed eternally. In fact the OT tells that there will be a “desolation of many generations” for Jerusalem and Israel BUT that it would rise again in latter times. We are never told that the whore of Revelation will EVER be restored again.

The Bible is full of promises by God that He will NEVER fully reject His people but would FINALLY restore them fully by His mercy.

Therefore, it is nonsensical (Scripturally speaking) to draw any conclusion that the verses in Revelation are referring to Jerusalem’s destruction. However, context will show that Vatican city (like Nineveh) DOES have all the hallmarks of a gentile great city.

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