Mystery Babylon

Mystery BabylonMystery Babylon, Part I

By Hunt, Dave – Jul 1, 1993

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets,…how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Luke:13:34

I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore…With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication….I saw a woman…And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT….[She was] drunken with the blood of the saints, and…of the martyrs of Jesus….[She] is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth [and is built on] seven hills [i.e., Rome]. Revelation:17:1-6,18

Jerusalem and Rome! How different and yet how similar are these ancient (and current) rivals for worldwide spiritual leadership! Both figured so largely in Christ’s crucifixion and the persecution of the early church. Both are destined by God also to play dominant roles in the final events prophesied in Scripture. Antichrist will rule the world from Rome’s fabled throne of the Caesars, revived as the seat of the new world order. This “Wicked [one]” (2 Thes:2:8) will be embraced by Israel as her Messiah (Jn:5:43) when he brings peace to the Middle East and allows the temple to be rebuilt. That the stage for these coming events is already set seemed apparent to the participants in last month’s video making tour of Israel and Rome. [Emphasis added]

The fate of Jerusalem has been inextricably intertwined with that of Rome ever since they joined in unholy alliance to reject and crucify the Lord of glory (Acts:2:23; 1 Cor:2:8). That uneasy partnership was shattered with Jerusalem’s destruction by Rome’s legions in A.D. 70, foretold both by Daniel (9:26) and Jesus (Mat:24:2). The Roman Empire must be revived, for one day its armies will belong to Daniel’s “prince that shall come”-i.e., Antichrist–and will seek to destroy Jerusalem again.

The woman in Revelation 17 can only be Rome/Vatican City. No other city built on seven hills wields such authority, exchanging ambassadors with nations . Nor does any other city claim to represent Christ, and thus no other could stand accused of spiritual fornication due to unholy alliances with earth’s rulers. Neither can any other city rival the blood of both Jews and Christians which pagan Rome and later the Vatican have shed. Thomas Hobbes perceptively said, “The Papacy is…the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof.”

“In the midst of the [70th] week [seven-year tribulation]” (Dan:9:27), Antichrist will forbid further sacrifices, place his image in the temple and demand to be worshiped as God. Israel will object, bringing the armies of the entire world, under Antichrist, against her to effect a “final solution” to the Jewish problem. Accompanied by the saints of all ages in their resurrected and/or glorified bodies, Christ will intervene. Destroying Antichrist and his armies, Israel’s Messiah, at last recognized and accepted by her, will rule the world from David’s throne in Jerusalem.

Such prophecies remain hidden from Israel. The spiritual blindness of the vast majority in that land was both apparent and incomprehensible to those on our recent tour. How true is Christ’s sorrowful pronouncement: “this [rebellious (Ps:78:8), faithless and perverse (Mat:17:17), evil and adulterous (12:39, 16:4), etc.] generation [of vipers (12:34)] shall not pass, till all these things [i.e., all the prophesied signs] be fulfilled” (24:34). Only after all prophesied events have occurred (which must precede and foreshadow the Second Coming), and Christ comes visibly in power and glory to rescue her in the midst of Armageddon, will Israel at last believe (Zec:12:10). Then shall be fulfilled Christ’s words: “he that endureth to the end shall be saved” (Mat:10:22); and Paul’s: “all Israel [that have survived to the end] shall be saved” (Rom:11:26).

How astonishing it is that stubborn unbelief should persistently characterize the descendants of Abraham, the father of the faithful (Rom:4:11-16)!

“[B]lindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles…” (Rom:11:25). More than 30 percent of Israel’s Jews are atheists. Although that figure is high compared with many other countries (10 percent in the USA and Ireland, 20 percent in Italy), it is even higher among kibbutz dwellers. This communal lifestyle of Marxist origins breeds atheism. We were told by our host on a visit to a kibbutz in Galilee that out of 300 kibbutzim throughout Israel only about 15 were “religious,” atheism being the faith of all of the others, including his own.

Politely but pointedly, I asked how Israel could assert any better claim to that land than the Arabs, if God did not give it to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for “an everlasting possession” (Gen:17:8; 48:4; Ex 6:8; Joel:3:2). He had no answer. I then reminded him that Israel’s children study their history from the Bible, and asked how that Book could be 100 percent accurate when it comes to ancient names, places and events and yet 100 percent wrong about the God who its authors claim inspired their writings. Again no answer.

Interviews in the streets for the videos we shot revealed that most Israelis (including even some atheists) do expect the Messiah. Yet they have no biblical understanding of who He might be–or that the prophets said Messiah would be “cut off [killed]” (Isa:53:8; Dan:9:26, etc.) and thereafter Jerusalem and the temple destroyed (9:26)! When asked how they would recognize the Messiah, nearly all responded, “He will bring peace.” What a setup for Antichrist, of whom it is said, “By peace shall [he] destroy many” (Dan:8:25)! Sadly, the worst destruction in Israel’s history, “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer:30:7), lies ahead.

Evidence of the conquering Roman presence from Christ’s day and from Crusader times is found everywhere. Ancient ruins, neglected and even destroyed when the Arabs were in control, are being expertly restored by the Jews. A Roman presence of another nature continues in Israel to this day: the Catholicized “holy” places, where events in Jesus’ life and death allegedly took place. Rome’s presence is seen and felt also in the throngs of Catholic pilgrims who come for the indulgences and special favors from God which they’ve been taught attach to physical places and relics. One has the impression that this land is still theirs. After all, didn’t the Crusaders conquer it for Holy Mother Church?

Each holy place is marked (and marred) by the inevitable church constructed upon it. In these shrines, candles (purchase price depending upon size) burn continuously. Robed priests appear periodically at altars to repeat incantations unknown to Christ and the apostles. Reverently the faithful cross themselves and join in ceremonies believed to convey special grace because performed at a sacred site. Israel needs the money the pilgrims bring. Yet one senses an uneasy truce between Jews, who disown their own who believe in Him, and Catholics, who come to see where Jesus was crucified by Jews, forgetting the Vatican’s long persecution and slaughter of Jesus’ Jewish brethren.

The Christian church, after being granted recognition and freedom by Constantine, soon became the persecutor of all those who did not submit to its doctrines. Like Islam a few centuries later, Christianity was imposed upon the entire populace of Europe under the threat of torture and death. Christ told His disciples that whosoever would be the greatest must be the servant of all. Instead, the popes aspired to be masters of the world. Church and state joined in adulterous partnership to expand the “Holy Roman Empire” by enforcing conversion with the sword.

Persecution of Jews commenced in earnest after the popes, taking advantage of the power vacuum left when the empire fell to the barbarians, began to rule not just as ecclesiastical leaders of the church but as secular kings. Papal armies fought to expand “the Kingdom of God.” The Jews’ plight–in the name of Jesus the Jew– soon became far more grievous under the alleged Christian church than it had ever been at the hands of pagan rulers. In Vicars of Christ, Jesuit historian Peter de Rosa writes of those early days:

[Catholicism] will become the most persecuting faith the world has ever seen. They will persecute the race from which Peter–and Jesus–sprang…[and] order in Christ’s name all those who disagree with them to be tortured, and sometimes crucified over fire. They will make an alliance between throne and altar; they will insist that…the throne (the state) impose the Christian [Roman Catholic] religion on all its subjects.

A major target of conquest became “the Holy Land,” which had already been claimed by “Saint” Helena. Constantine was the father of the new Church and Helena was honored as its mother. Even before it was conferred upon Mary, the title “Mother of God” was given to Helena as the Emperor’s mother. (Every Roman emperor was worshiped as God.) This “mother of the church” journeyed to the Holy Land to buy relics and to build churches upon alleged sites of key events involving our Lord.

The Roman Catholic Church began to believe it had replaced Israel as God’s chosen people. That land, promised by God to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, now belonged, for new and holier reasons, to “Christian” Rome, the new Zion. The pagan empire had become the Holy Roman Empire, the “Kingdom of God” on earth. The hope of its revival was the dream of all Europe during the Middle Ages–a goal which will be accomplished at last by Antichrist. The revived Roman Empire over which he will rule, with enthusiastic Vatican support as in the past, will encompass the entire world.  [Emphasis added]

Without rancor we must face the facts concerning the Holy Roman Empire to understand what its revival will mean. Pagans had blamed every disaster upon Christians. Now the Church blamed all on the Jews. Accused of causing the Black Death, Jews were rounded up and hanged, burned and drowned by the thousands in revenge. Although now and then a pope sought to ameliorate their condition, there was no place for “Christ crucifiers” in God’s Holy Kingdom. More than 100 anti-Semitic documents were published by the Roman Catholic Church between the sixth and twentieth centuries. Anti-Semitism had become official Church doctrine. To this day, the Vatican has never conceded Israel’s right to exist and wants Jerusalem to be, not in Jewish hands, but under international control.  [Emphasis added]

To raise an army for the First Crusade, Pope Urban II promised instant entrance into heaven without purgatory for all who fell in that great cause. The knights and knaves who responded with enthusiasm to that deceitful promise left a trail of plunder, mayhem, and murder on their way to Jerusalem, where they slaughtered all Arabs and Jews. One of their first acts after their triumphal entry into Jerusalem was to herd the Jews into the synagogue and set it ablaze. On their way to the Holy Land, the Crusaders gave the Jews the choice of baptism or death. De Rosa recounts:

In the year 1096 half of the Jews of Worms were slaughtered as the Crusaders passed through the town. The rest fled to the bishop’s residence for protection. He agreed to save them, on condition that they asked to be baptized. The Jews retired to consider their decision. When the doors of the audience chamber were opened, all 800 Jews inside were dead. Some were decapitated; fathers had killed their babes before turning their knives on their wives and themselves; a groom had slain his bride. The first century tragedy of Masada was repeated everywhere in Germany and, later, throughout France.

Sincere followers of Christ, too, were slain by the hundreds of thousands for attempting to follow the Bible instead of Rome. What these victims suffered from Holy Mother Church is a story sad beyond belief for both persecuted and persecutors. The Inquisitors were caught in a web from which there was no escape, for the papacy did indeed “reign over the kings of the earth.” No doubt many of the zealots who carried out papal decrees were sincere. The civil authorities, moreover, feared excommunication should they fail to fulfill the Inquisitors’ demands. The facts speak volumes.

Heretics (those who felt bound by conscience to follow God’s Word) were committed to the flames because the popes believed that the Bible forbade Christians to shed blood. Victims of the Inquisition exceeded by hundreds of thousands the number of Christians (and Jews) who had been martyred under pagan Roman emperors. Catholic apologists try in vain to absolve their Church of responsibility, arguing that the sentence of death was carried out by civil authorities. Yet this transference to the “secular arm” was required by the Church’s canon law, and at the tribunal where heretics were condemned the Inquisitor’s throne was higher than that of the magistrate. The prisoner was allowed to know neither the charge against him nor the identity of his accusers. No one was ever acquitted. Torture often made the pitiful victims willing to confess to anything. Will Durant reminds us of Pope Clement V’s rebuke of King Edward II’s leniency:

We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land. But no state law can override [the Church’s] canon law, our law. Therefore I command you at once to submit those men to torture.

The medieval Inquisition had flourished for centuries when, in 1542, Pope Paul III gave it permanent status as the first of Rome’s Sacred Congregations, the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Inquisition. Known more recently as the Holy Office, its name was changed in 1967 to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith–quite appropriate, inasmuch as public burnings were known as autos-da-fé, or acts of faith. The Office operates today from the Palace of the Inquisition adjacent to St. Peter’s. The Grand Inquisitor is Cardinal Ratzinger, who reports to Pope John Paul II.  [Emphasis added]

Before he became Pope Paul IV in 1555, Inquisitor-General John Peter Carafa had converted a house at his own expense into a fully equipped torture chamber for eliciting confessions from the accused. He denounced any who tolerated heretics and declared, “If my own father were a heretic, I would personally gather the wood to burn him.” During his brief pontificate the population of Rome was decimated almost by half, with Jews the main victims. Under Paul IV, marriage between a Christian and a Jew was punishable by death. Hitler claimed only to be carrying out what the popes and Church councils had already decreed. [Emphasis added]

Paul IV forced Jews to sell their properties, confined them to ghettos, treated them as slaves and reduced them to the status of ragpickers. Pope Gregory XIII declared that the guilt of Jews in rejecting and crucifying Christ “only grows deeper with successive generations, entailing perpetual slavery.”  Later popes, such as Benedict XIV, Pius VII, Leo XII, Pius VIII, Gregory XVI, Pius IX, et al., continued the persecution of Jews. Pope Pius XII knew very well that the Nazis were systematically exterminating Jews. Yet he never spoke a public word against the Holocaust, because to do so would have condemned his own Church. This silence, historians agree, encouraged Hitler and added to the unspeakable genocide.

Jerusalem has its Yad Vashem (Holocaust Museum) to keep ever before the world’s conscience the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler. By contrast, there is no memorial to the untold multitudes of both Jews and Christians murdered by Holy Mother Church and now forgotten. De Rosa reminds us that Pope John Paul II “knows the church was responsible for persecuting Jews, for the Inquisition, for slaughtering heretics by the thousands, for reintroducing torture into Europe as part of the judicial process. But he has to be careful [not to apologize]. The doctrines responsible for those terrible things still underpin his position .” (Emphasis added)   The Vatican has never repented of these crimes against humanity and God. Of these indisputable facts many of today’s evangelical leaders seem willingly ignorant. TBC

source:  http://www.thebereancall.org/content/mystery-babylon-part-i

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Mystery Babylon, Part II

By Hunt, Dave – Aug 1 1993

And in the days of these [ten] kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed….Daniel:2:44

After this I saw…a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible…and it had ten horns….And the ten horns…are ten kings….Daniel:7:7,24

And…behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns….Revelation:12:3

And I…saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns….Revelation:13:1

I saw a woman sit[ting] upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns….And the ten horns…are ten kings….Revelation:17:3, 12

Of all the prophecies in the Bible, Revelation 17 is the most astonishing. It culminates a series of visions of four world empires, the fourth to be revived in the “last days” and ruled by Antichrist through ten subordinate “kings”-a series of visions which began 600 years earlier in Daniel 2 with Nebuchadnezzar’s image. The image’s “head of gold” was the first world empire, the Babylonian; the “breast and arms of silver” pictured the succeeding Medo-Persian Empire; next was the Grecian represented by “belly and thighs of brass”; and finally the “legs of iron, and feet [with ten toes signifying ten kings] part of iron and part of clay” depicted the fourth world empire arising out of Rome.

Daniel’s prophecy (continued in Chapters 7-12) foretold accurate details of coming world empires which we can’t enumerate. Apropos of our subject, however, the image’s two legs foretold the Roman Empire’s division into East and West. And so it happened, first politically; centuries later, religiously. Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy (which in July [1993] again gained control of religion in Russia) remain divided to this day. They will, however, be reunited as the core of Antichrist’s new world religion.

In a second vision, the four world empires were seen as beasts. The fourth had ten horns, representing, like the ten toes on the image, “ten kings” (Dan:7:24) yet to arise. The ancient Roman Empire was never ruled by a coalition of ten kings; yet so it must be when “the God of heaven sets up [his] kingdom.” Thus the Roman Empire must be revived in that form.

God’s millennial kingdom will not (as many are teaching) result from a gradual takeover of the world by the church but through a sudden catastrophic intervention by Christ from heaven. He is the stone “cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet…the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold [were] broken to pieces…and the stone…became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth” (2:34-35). Christ’s sudden intervention at Armageddon is also presented by Paul: “And then shall that Wicked [Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall…destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thes:2:8-10).  The same event is found in Zechariah 12-14, Revelation 19 and elsewhere.

The Bible ignores other empires, some of which have been larger than the four above. Why? They won’t be revived. For centuries the seat of world power was Egypt. There were great dynasties in China, Genghis Khan’s far-ranging Mongolian empire, and vast Mayan and Aztec kingdoms in Central and South America. The Arabs once controlled most of North Africa, the Middle East and much of Europe. These empires will not rise again. The United States has been the dominant industrial and military force for 50 years, but that dominance cannot continue. The prophecies are clear: the Roman Empire will be revived, with Antichrist’s seat in Western Europe and the world religion’s headquarters in Rome.

In addition to the revived Roman Empire, the ten-horned beast also depicts Satan (the “great red dragon”) and a satanically empowered man(Rev:13:4-8)
-the coming world ruler, or Antichrist. Yet it wasn’t so much the sight of this terrifying beast that took John’s breath away, but the woman who was riding him: “ MYSTERY, BABYLON .”  Babylon is not a country but a city (certainly not the United States). Nor is it the city Saddam is rebuilding in Iraq, for that historic Babylon, in ruins for 2,300 years, obviously does not meet the five criteria. Nor are there two Babylons (a spiritual one and a commercial one) shown in Revelation 17 and 18. They are one and the same.

Babylon was built around the ruins of the Tower of Babel, which, we noted in June, represented the false religion of human effort in opposition to salvation by grace through faith in Christ. It was the satanically inspired attempt to establish man as his own God. Babel’s antichrist paganism remained as the unifying factor linking the four successive world empires. And so it must be revived with the Roman Empire.

Like Nimrod at Babel, the Caesars presided over the pagan priesthood and were worshiped as God. All who refused to bow down before the emperor’s image in recognition of his deity were slain–a practice which will be reestablished under Antichrist (Rev:13:8,14-15). Most astonishing of all, “Christianity” must merge with Babel’s antichrist paganism to form the new world religion! That insight was a major reason for John’s amazement.  [Emphasis added]

That a gorgeously clad woman was holding the reins astride such a terrifying, world-devouring beast was incredible. The woman’s identity, however, staggered John far more. Beneath the erotic attire, flashy jewelry and impudent gaze there was a haunting familiarity. It couldn’t be! How had Christ’s chaste bride become this brazen whore? What alchemy had transformed that small, despised flock of humble followers of the Lamb into this notorious prostitute toasting Satan with the blood of the martyrs in a golden cup! How could the church, hated and persecuted by the world, as Christ had said she would be–how could she have become this Machiavellian despot that reigned over the kings of the earth?  [Emphasis added]

History authenticates John’s vision. The blood of the martyrs was the seed of a heavenly minded church without earthly ambition, a church whose members, increased to about 10 percent of the Roman Empire, were oppressed by the world and periodically slaughtered. Then, in AD 313, freedom from persecution came unexpectedly and suddenly under Constantine. Unfortunately, what seemed like a gift from God was a trap laid by Satan. It set the stage for an apostasy that would last more than a millennium–and is now gathering renewed momentum.

When he gave Christianity official status alongside paganism, Constantine, as emperor and “Pontifex Maximus” over the pagan priesthood known as the Pontifical College, became the de facto head of the Christian Church. As such he invented and took the title “Vicar of Christ.” Coming from the Latin vicarius , vicar means “in the place of.” Its Greek equivalent is anti . Thus the popes’ title, “Vicar of Christ,” literally means “Antichrist”-the one who pretends to be Christ. [Emphasis added]

For centuries, Protestant creeds identified the popes as antichrists. That label surely applies to the paganized Christianity over which the popes have presided as Constantine’s successors. Succeeding him also as head of Rome’s Pontifical College, the popes retain to this day the related pagan title “Pontifex Maximus.” Undoubtedly, however, the Antichrist will be the new Constantine-head of the new world order-with the Roman pontiff his right-hand man.  [Emphasis added]

Constantine, the first “Vicar of Christ,” did indeed prove to be an antichrist. Not a genuine Christian, he had no concern for doctrine but only for religious unity in his empire. The original ecumenist, he convened the first Ecumenical Council, the Council of Nicea, in AD 325, set the agenda and presided over it as Charlemagne would over the Council of Chalon 500 years later during his attempt to revive the Roman Empire. Though all such attempts failed, the popes gave the Empire continuity in religion and wielded supreme secular authority as well. Historian R. W. Southern reminds us,  [Emphasis added]

…there was in Rome a single spiritual and temporal authority [the papacy] exercising powers which in the end exceeded those that had ever lain within the grasp of a Roman Emperor.

To John’s utter amazement, he saw that the church Christ had founded would metamorphose into “that city…on seven hills…that rules over the kings of the earth”!  Picture, for example, the humbled emperor Henry IV waiting barefoot in the snows at Canossa to make his peace with Pope Gregory VII in 1077!  As noted last month, no other city in the world except Vatican City “rules over kings” and meets the other four criteria which identify the woman in Revelation 17. In the July 3, 1992 National Catholic Reporter (NCR) a Catholic priest confesses, “The church…was subverted by the ambitions of such men as [Popes] Gregory VII, Innocent III and Boniface VII [and many others] into a politico-ecclesiastical institution wielding totalitarian power in both sacred and secular fields.” Historian Walter James elaborates:

The Papacy controlled the gateway to heaven which all the faithful, including their rulers, hoped earnestly to enter….[I]t gave the Popes a moral authority which has never been wielded since. A Pope like Innocent III held all Europe in his net….

If that seven-headed beast with ten horns, the revived Roman Empire, is to appear, then the “woman” must hold the reins once again. While the Roman Catholic Church, since the Reformation, saw its supreme power challenged, it has regained much. The Vatican is a sovereign state like any nation. It exchanges ambassadors with the world’s nations and participates in international politics. The NCR boasts, “No other church has such privileged access” to top political gatherings.  [Emphasis added]

John Paul II has emerged as the world’s most respected and influential leader. Though papal power is not wielded as overtly as during the Middle Ages, yet the Pope still “rules over the kings of the earth.” Presidents Bush and Gorbachev consulted with the Pope at least once a week. President Reagan solicited the Pope’s help against communism. Using Poland as a base, agents of the Vatican worked with the CIA to bring down communism and the Berlin Wall. These amazing events, Gorbachev later confessed, could not have occurred without John Paul II.

Ecumenism is essential in creating a “Christianity” which embraces all religions. Psychology plays a major ecumenical role by providing common faith, language and ritual for everyone from atheists, cultists and occultists to Roman Catholics and evangelicals. Today the Reformation is seen as a semantic misunderstanding, its vital issues blurred or ignored. There is a growing cooperation between the National Association of Evangelicals and Roman Catholics, according to Jack White, NAE president. Even leading cult experts whitewash Rome’s heresies. Chuck Colson’s (like Billy Graham’s) embrace of Catholicism and acceptance of the Templeton Prize is one more shocking example of the growing ecumenism among evangelical leaders which is preparing the way for Antichrist. (See “Q&A” for further clarification.) Nor could a more apt pope than John Paul II have arrived upon the scene at this crucial hour.  [Emphasis added]

The centuries-long involvement of Roman Catholicism in pagan/occultic practices has led naturally to its present marriage to the New Age. Rome has made it clear that the disciplining of New Age priest Matthew Fox is for failure to submit to the hierarchy but not for his horrendous heresies (“ News Alerts.” ) Fox continues as a priest with a huge following among Catholics. The involvement in Eastern mysticism of tens of thousands of priests, nuns, and laity is condoned by the Vatican.

We have documented the accelerating secular acceptance of New Age “spirituality” such as Nancy Reagan’s obsession with astrology and President Reagan’s submission to astrological guidance and his own superstitions. Matters have only gotten worse with the new administration. Bill and Hillary Clinton’s and Al Gore’s commitment to an amoral, humanistic and New Age agenda is well known. That all three claim to be “Christians” fits the fact that the world religion will be an antichrist “Christianity.”

Time magazine recently had a picture of Hillary Clinton with eyes closed, head reverently bowed, as a North American Indian shaman performed a ritual over her. Concluding a recent speech, Hillary declared, “Let us be willing to remold society by redefining what it means to be a human being in the twentieth century, moving into a new millennium.” Yes, the Clintons intend to “remold society” and to “redefine what it means to be a human being”!

Part of that remolding involves promoting ungodly lifestyles. The consequences are devastating and worsening. Raw statistics condemn the Clintons’ encouragement of homosexuality. The median age of death for married heterosexual men is nearly twice that of homosexuals: 75 compared with 39. Only 1 percent of homosexuals live beyond age 65. The average age of death for married women is 79 compared with 45 for lesbians ( Christian News, 1/13/92). Secular studies have demonstrated that living together before marriage increases the likelihood of divorce–exactly the opposite of what those who engage in “safe sex” imagine ( The Baptist Challenge, 10/92).

Our world is fast ripening for God’s judgment. Consider a simple comparison between the seven leading problems in “Christian” America’s schools in the 1940s and the 1990s. Fifty years ago the worst problems faced by teachers and administrators were 1) talking in class, 2) chewing gum, 3) making noise, 4) running in halls, 5) cutting in line, 6) dress code violations, 7) littering. Today they are 1) drug abuse, 2) alcohol abuse, 3) pregnancy, 4) suicide, 5) rape, 6) robbery, 7) assault. How revealing!

Everywhere youth is bombarded not only with evil but with persuasively presented antichrist philosophies. A recent TV series began with Indiana Jones as a boy in India going to the Theosophical Society to meet founder Annie Besant. There he was introduced to Jidhu Krishnamurti, the “chosen world leader”; he then was taken to various Hindu and Buddhist temples. Christianity was degraded and Jesus was put on the level of all other “religious leaders.” Behold an even more insidious effort by George Lucas to indoctrinate the West into shamanism than even the Star Wars series of films!

Christians face two dangers: 1) becoming so immunized to apostasy that it seems normal and no longer alarming; 2) becoming discouraged and deciding that there is no use in standing up to such overwhelming evil. Yes, the stage is set for Antichrist. He will take over the world. False “Christianity” will deceive billions. The Bible says so. We will not save the world or even America. But we can rescue countless individuals through prayer, godly example and the proclamation of the gospel. Let us do so!  [Emphasis added] TBC

source:  http://www.thebereancall.org/content/mystery-babylon-part-ii

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11 Comment authors
Tom (Discerning the World)CarolynDebraDeborah (Discerning the World)Redeemed Recent comment authors
Deborah (Discerning the World)
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Marion

Nope, it’s approved, give it some time to appear.

Redeemed
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Redeemed

Carolyn wrote:

Redeemed, I made it clear that I was not endorsing anything else he wrote, as I have not specifically read much by him. I was presenting an article that I felt was well organized and Scripturally/historically based. Show me something in the article that is misrepresenting truth.
Are you not doing the same thing that Paul was doing with Dave Hunt? and other writers? Digging up something besides the topic at hand and diverting all the attention onto something else that they are teaching? Yes, Dave Hunt was teaching a divine union with God which is Platonic and Gnostic and wrong. And Stewart Best may have some wrong teachings. I was only considering what he said in this 5 point article. And I said that I agree with most (not all) of his connections. The biggest and most important point he is making is how the Masonic, Occultic agenda is fulfilling prophecy. Also I did not find anything contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ in this series.
And that was my point as well. If you want to trash the whole idea because you don’t agree with something you found in his links…I will accept that. But really, it’s a bit unfair to Paul then, because he was right about Dave and others.

Carolyn, I don’t have adequate time right now to address your questions regarding Stewart Best. I will get back on that.

However, you are comparing oranges to apples with Paul and Dave Hunt and me and Stewart Best. You are incorrect to state that Paul had a legitimate beef with Dave Hunt. Hunt was exonerated, plain and simple. Mattere settled. Paul made false accusations that were countered and cleared up.

Your statement: Yes, Dave Hunt was teaching a divine union with God which is Platonic and Gnostic and wrong. Dave Hunt did NOT teach a Gnostic and Platonic gospel. That is a lie from the pit of hell. Sorry to be so strong, but I do not want to dredge up what has already been settled. Dave just passed away about 4 days ago and God will be His judge. But that statement is a false accusation. If you were familiar with Dave’s statement on the Gospel you would realize that.

I accept your apology as to the sarcasm with rolling the eyes. It did seem to be a snarky comment that could not have been taken as a friendly jab. I think I know a friendly jab when I see one.

I will be back in regards to Stewart Best. I am not mistaken about him and by giving any credibility to him it could cause someone to stumble.

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

Marion, here’s an excerpt from Stewart Best Part 2…because Stewart Best says it best. God is not finished with Israel. He will have the last say…there is still the time of Jacob’s trouble, the last 7 year period of Daniel’s 70 weeks…but then it will be time for Christ to set up his throne in Jerusalem.

You can read this and decide for yourself. I won’t argue. If you already have your mind made up that Israel is scheduled for annihilation forever and forever, the Scripture says differently….and here it is:

“The Supreme Court of the United States TWICE ruled that America WAS A CHRISTIAN NATION. The 1891 decision was very clear about what that meant. We can easily prove that BABYLON IS PORTRAYED AS A PRETRIBULATIONAL AND TRIBULATION NATION, which means IT IS A NATION WITHIN THE CHURCH AGE, thus UNDER THE NEW COVENANT. If a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, then that person is GRAFTED INTO THE NATION ISRAEL, and becomes part of the heritage of God. It cannot be otherwise, something Paul confirmed:

“For there

IS NO DIFFERENCE

between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him

(Romans 10:12).”

Under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, which is a NEW HEART VIA REGENERATION, there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile. ALL COME INTO THE NEW COVENANT VIA THE SAME WAY: REBIRTH.

“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,

lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;

that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL,

until the FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN

(Romans 11:25).”

What are the Gentiles brought INTO? What do they COME INTO? ISRAEL! They become part of ISRAEL, VIA THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM, THE FAITH OF CHRIST (THE SAME FAITH THEY BOTH HAD). They enter into ISRAEL, INTO GOD’S PEOPLE, via the NEW COVENANT.

“And if some of the branches be broken off,

and thou, being a WILD OLIVE TREE, wert GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM,

and WITH THEM PARTAKEST

OF THE ROOT AND FATNESS OF THE OLIVE TREE;

(Romans 11:17).”

The Christian, says Paul, is GRAFTED INTO THE OLIVE TREE OF ISRAEL. They become partakers of ISRAEL. They become the HERITAGE OF GOD, GOD’S PEOPLE. If they are God’s people, THEN THEY ARE PART OF GOD’S PROGRAM, and if part of the program, will they be a part of God’s blessings?

“Boast NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES.

But if thou boast,

THOU BEAREST NOT THE ROOT, BUT THE ROOT THEE

(Romans 11:18).”

Paul warns Christians against boasting against Israel, or to word it another way, TO NOT RUN ISRAEL DOWN SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY REJECT CHRIST. Do not sit there and point a finger at Israel, or hate Israel, or the Jew, because, says Paul, THEY ARE THE ROOT, AND THEY BEAR YOU, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

There are many groups in America that HATE THE JEW. They claim all sorts of things against the Jew. They speak of a ZIONIST CONSPIRACY; they speak OF THE EVIL OF THE JEWS. They claim Israel is FALSE, and that God has UTTERLY CAST OFF ISRAEL, AND ALL OF THE PROMISES MADE TO ISRAEL HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED OVER TO THE CHURCH. Many of them even go so far as to say that Paul did not realize what was happening, and that Paul’s comments and theology are in grave error!! There are those who claim America is in fact comprised of ISRAEL’S LOST 10 TRIBES, and is in fact ISRAEL itself!! They accomplish this by taking all of the prophecies concerning MILLENNIAL ISRAEL, and applying them to America in this age, which she does fulfill!! However, it is a perversion of Scripture, and a DENIAL OF THE COVENANTS OF GOD.

God did not forever cast off Israel. He merely put Israel upon a shelf for their rejection of Christ. Paul says so: “BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.” It means what it says. The key word there is UNTIL. There is a time coming in which the ABRAHAMIC, PALESTINIAN, AND OTHER COVENANTS WILL BE RESTORED BACK TO ISRAEL.

One of the key parts of the grand delusion is THE DENIAL OF ISRAEL having a RIGHT TO THE COVENANTS OF GOD. The antichrist forces REPUDIATE THAT CLAIM, AND APPROPRIATE FOR THEMSELVES ALL OF THE COVENANTS. In their own ways and delusions, they claim they ARE ISRAEL. They claim they ARE THE REAL JEWS. This falsehood, this utter delusion, comes during the CHURCH AGE, and it comes from WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH!!

That is a crucial point, for Christ Himself mentions them, and tells us that these “CHRISTIANS” who claim they are JEWS (ISRAEL), but ARE NOT, are under a rank deception, and full of hatred. He forces them to bow at the foot of REAL CHRISTIANS.

“BEHOLD, I WILL MAKE THEM OF THE

SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, WHICH SAY

THEY ARE JEWS,

AND

ARE NOT,

BUT

DO LIE;

BEHOLD, I WILL MAKE THEM TO COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE THY FEET, AND TO KNOW THAT I HAVE LOVED THEE (Revelation 3:9).”

This comment was made to the Church of Philadelphia, the TRUE CHURCH OF THE LAST DAYS, A CHURCH CHRIST LOVED. This is a direct statement from Jesus Christ that during the latter times of the Church age, a MOVEMENT WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH ITSELF, will come AND SWEEP THE LAND. These so called “Christians” will claim THEY ARE JEWS, THE REAL JEWS!! They claim theyARE ISRAEL, THE REAL ISRAEL, and that they are the INHERITORS of all of the covenants of God, and that the REAL JEWS are liars, frauds, and impostors. They will, because they think they are THE TRUE JEWS, and they attempt to SET UP A KINGDOM OF GOD UPON EARTH, AND THEY PERVERT PROPHECY TO DO IT.

They are LIARS, SAID CHRIST. AND THEY ARE FULL OF HATRED, and they ESPOUSE DOCTRINES THAT ARE AT THEIR ROOT WHITE SUPREMACIST! They hate not only the Jew, but they hate all other races not their own, as well as anyone who does not agree with their antichrist theology. THESE PEOPLE have various “ways” in which they make this claim. There are many dedicated and sincere Christians caught up in these movements, but they should remove themselves from them as fast as they can. Christ says these so called Christians, WHICH THEY ARE NOT, will BE FORCED TO BOW AND WORSHIP AT THE FOOT OF THE TRUE CHRISTIANS, WHO HAD TRUE LOVE IN THEIR HEART, NOT ONLY FOR THE JEWS, BUT FOR ALL PEOPLES OF THE WORLD.

These groups claim in one form or another that they REPLACE ISRAEL, AND THE JEWS, AND THUS THEY BECOME THE TRUE JEWS, and THEY ALONE have the right to rule the world, and force their edicts upon everyone else. This is NOT TO SAY that Zionism, a movement of SOME (BUT NOT ALL) OF THE RICH MEN OF THE EARTH, does not make the same claim, for it does. That they try to bring about their one world government is a fact, for Isaiah 26 says they do, AND FAIL. This is not to say there are not high placed RICH Jews who are evil to their core and who are attempting to bring about a ZIONIST KINGDOM UPON EARTH, in which all other NON-JEWS are merely “animals”. All one has to do is read the Jewish Babylonian Talmud and other like works to find that out. Jeremiah 24 speaks of them as “evil figs”, so evil in fact, that they went beyond anything seen on planet earth! GOD WILL DESTROY THEM ALL IN HIS GOOD TIME. “Revenge is mine, saith the Lord.”

But EVIL HEARTS are not the special privilege of some rich Jews, whites, or rich men of any race. THE EVIL HEART IS WITHIN ALL MEN, and the true conspirators ARE THE UNREGENERATE RICH MEN OF THE EARTH, OF ALL RACES, COLORS AND CREEDS.”

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

John, I am aware of these teachings so I don’t have to read them again. I know we differ in our conclusions and of course the Catholic Church plays its part. It just does not fulfill all the parameters that are clearly defined in Scripture for Babylon the Great. I just cannot make the Vatican fit…

I’m still wondering about the second beast that comes up out of the earth (a specific region)…the false prophet. Still pondering that one….could it be the pope? or the prophet Muhammed? or an assimilation of some sort….? Still room for some supernatural configurations and transformations by Lucifer and his New World Order.

Revelation 16:12-14
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
12 The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw three foul spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. 14 These are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

The only thing I know for sure is that God’s Word is 100 percent accurate and history will once again bear this out. As for our speculations…time will tell…

Deborah (Discerning the World)
Admin

Marion

John said: John Chingford said (see March 21 for full comment):
“Remember Jesus said, ‘when you do these things to the least of my servant, you do it UNTO ME.’ Where were MOST of the apostles killed and MOST of the infant church martyred? Was it Jerusalem or Rome? Paul said in Phil. 3:10 ‘that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death.’
Paul is saying that his death would be similar to the death of Jesus because he had become so united in fellowship with Jesus that (in a sense) Jesus died with him in Rome. So Jesus effectively died in Rome, through His people who were dying because Jesus suffered for ALL time…on the cross for ALLtime has suffered in ALL things like us.”

You said: “WOW!! REALLY??? Is this “special revelation?” Perhaps you don’t remember that “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.” (Heb. 10:10)??? Paul stated that HE would be conformed to the death of CHRIST. You state that CHRIST’S death would be conformed to PAUL’S…OURS?? So much so that you now add to the word of God which explicity states Jesus died in Jerusalem and ‘in a sense’ He now DIES (again) with Paul in ROME??? Paul NEVER inferred such a thing!! What kind of blasphemy is this???”

No Marion, John is scripturally RIGHT. This is not special revelation. Calling him a blasphemer because you do not understand this verse is where I draw the line. Go and study your scripture properly. John is NOT saying Jesus’s death would be conformed to ours, NOR does he say that Christ died AGAIN. Jesus said, ‘when you do these things to the least of my servant, you do it UNTO ME.’

Understand this one and for all, JERUSELEM is NOT RESPONSIBLE until deaths to Christians and Jews alike, and JERUSALEM IS NOT RESPONSIBLE MYSTERY BABYLON. Yes there are be Jews following the Babalonian religion today, but the CITY with the most impact is the VATICAN and ROMAN CATHOLICISM.

Deborah (Discerning the World)
Admin

Carolyn

Sorry Carolyn, but the USA aint that MYSTERY BABYLON either, just like Austrailia, or any country in Europe for that matter (barring the Rome). South Africa too declared that it was a Christian nation many years ago and now they are wanting to put stickers on Jewish products (basically informing people not to buy). Oh my!!! South Africa is Mystery Babylon!!!

To deny that it’s the Vatican is just plain silly.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Carolyn, I will not stand for you to quote and promote a FALSE TEACHER. Stewart Best is not only a false teacher, but he promotes an unbiblical methodology counterfeit “gospel” that is OCCULTIC & DEMONIC!

Stewart is explicitly clear in his teaching that Christians enter into their subconscious mind or human spirit on their journey to “authentic” regeneration:
Notice therefore that ONE MUST LEAVE THE OUTER COURT, THE OUTER VISUAL AND CONSCIOUS RELIGIOUS WORSHIP AND PRAISE AND SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM IT ALL AND ENTER INTO THEIR SUBCONSCIOUS INNER COURT. They must journey through the regions of the hidden man, the playground of Satan and his demons, THE REALM OF THE SPIRIT. As they journey through this region, they will be exposed to the REAL TRUTH OF THEIR DESTITUTE HEART.
(Quoted from Dark Light Series Chapter Heart and Soul) bold emphasis added
http://libertytothecaptives.net/stewart_best_narrow_way_doc.html

His website and media productions are chock full of garbage, including the “America is Babylon” nonsense.

Carolyn, you are treading on serious ground here. You have been bewitched!
You reject a brother who takes the Scriptures seriously and rightly divides them and instead embrace this guy who is obviously a sandwich short of a picnic.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Carolyn, just to further show your horrible mistake in promoting Stewart Best, he, like his co-kook, James Lloyd who shares his “America is Babylon” nonsense, believes in an alien invasion, the return of hte Nephilim, a FALSE teaching!! This guy is off the charts! Please do your due diligence and then come back and clear this up by owning the mistake. We all have made them and the important thing is that we are not guilty of causing others to stumble.

This is NOT an endorsemenet of this site, but it fully EXPOSES both Lloyd and Best for what they are:

new Stewart Best & Todd Bentley Agree on “White Light”
Debunking Dark Light: The Two Hearts of Man

Summation of What I Intend to Prove in the Debunking Dark Light Articles

Debunking Dark Light: Stewart Best Teaches Initiation Equals Regeneration

Stewart Best Says Faith Has Nothing to Do With Regeneration

Debunking Dark Light: Oneness With God–Occult Counterpart to the New Birth

Stewart Best and The Book of Zero Options: Satan is God With a Capital G?

Stewart Best: The Book of Zero Options: New Age Descriptions For the Bible

Article #3 IF The Bible is True, God Will Verify Himself?

Stewart Best and Left Behind: Antichrist Parallels

Occult Terminology/Teachings in Stewart Best’s Dark Light Book

New Age Gospel of Stewart Best

James Lloyd warning new!

Stewart Best’s Narrow Way Occult Methodology: Conscious Connection With One’s Human Spirit

“Narrow Way” That Leads to the New Age

[edited – no links?]

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

Redeemed, with respect, you are still not accepting my apology at face value, since you are attributing an unkind spirit to what I said when there was none intended.

As for Stewart Best, I have been to his site, read some of his articles (not all) but certainly enough to know that his salvation message is that we come to Christ by being born again. His idea about the dark light is that many have come to God through a different gospel that is no gospel at all and even if they do miracles or do good works or go to daily confessionals at the Catholic Church and even if they were baptized in the Church, without the rebirth, the light in them is dark and it will not benefit them.

I won’t be calling Stewart Best names any time soon, just as I won’t be saying mean things about you or Debs. If I was to get my information about Debs from someone else’s discernment site, taking phrases out of context, I could come up with some very distorted views on people’s opinions of her teaching. However, I have read the material and the salvation message she presents for myself, therefore I cannot condemn her as a heretic. As we have agreed in past comments, discernment is not an excuse to hate and attack each other, but a chance to expose the deception that masquerades as truth.

Also discussed is the fact that we have differences of opinion and are at different stages in our Christian walk. We have not all reached the stage of maturity that the Lord is taking us to. We’re still on the journey. We have seen from past experience, the tongue can be used for good or for evil. It is, as James says, a restless evil full of deadly poison when we allow bitterness or malice to control us. My prayer is that God keep me humble and obedient to Christ’s command to love even those that hate me.

Debs, I read Dave Hunt’s book on the Woman Ride’s the Beast a few years back. Then I read Richard Coombe’s “America the Babylon”. As expressed in an earlier post, I cannot make the Vatican fit the criteria laid out for Babylon the Great. Some things would fit but much doesn’t fit. Recently, I have become more sure that America is indeed the Woman riding some form of the UN Beast and that it’s Freemason counterparts operating through Catholicism, the Apostate Church and the ruling elite of the New World Order will work together to bring Lucifer’s agenda to full realization. There is still some supernatural mystery to the whole operation. With respect, I don’t believe we can easily dismiss America. Just so, we cannot easily dismiss Islam but not sure what the final alliance will look like. Things are changing at such a rapid pace, we can only see the partial picture. The only thing that remains unchanged and unshaken is the Word of God.

Anyhow, I remain watchful, as instructed by our Lord. And hopefully, we remain agreed on the things that matter…the true gospel.

Deborah (Discerning the World)
Admin

Carolyn

Okay… you can think that the USA is Mystery Babylon smile lol. But I will pray that your eyes get pointed back to the Vatican soon wink

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Carolyn, I DID accept your apology. But I believe sincerely that you have stepped into a carefully laid trap and because Best shares your view of “America is Babylon” you have settled into his nest.

Very dangerous and serious mistake sister. Only a quick perusal of his website reveals how far out in left field he is. If you can’t see that, I have a very deep concern for you and am only trying to help you.

Best is embedded with James Lloyd’s organization and Lloyd is a well-documented kook. Best is not clearly stating the Gospel, but is putting a mystical, New Age type spin on it. Very spooky stuff.

You follow him at your peril and my exhortation was motivated by love and concern, not a desire to argue. But of course you are free to follow anyone you choose. I do pray that you will discern and won’t be leading others into this black hole.

You seem hung up on determining just who “Babylon” is, definitely a “back burner” topic when compared to the importance of sound biblical doctrine. Stewart Best is more concerned with promoting strange ideas than with sound biblical doctrine.

This site promotes sound biblical doctrine and you would be hard pressed to find fault with that. In fact, people like Best are outed here and warnings sounded to protect the precious flock of the Lord. The flock needs to be protected from those of Best’s ilk. In fact, the Bible instructs us to do just that.

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Marion

You said:

“WOW!! REALLY??? Is this “special revelation?” Perhaps you don’t remember that “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.” (Heb. 10:10)??? Paul stated that HE would be conformed to the death of CHRIST. You state that CHRIST’S death would be conformed to PAUL’S…OURS?? So much so that you now add to the word of God which explicity states Jesus died in Jerusalem and ‘in a sense’ He now DIES (again) with Paul in ROME??? Paul NEVER inferred such a thing!! What kind of blasphemy is this???”

You then went on to describe that you thought me to be a “devious, unsound, irreverent, contemptuous” person, simply because of ONE piece of scripture interpretation of mine. You also said “John: Do I read your blog? In a word…NO!”

The truth is that you completely twisted what I ACTUALLY said by leaving out an important section to “deviously, unsoundly, disrespectfully, contemptuously” twist what I said to make me look really bad in the sight of all Debs readers worldwide!!! It is very rude/impolite/dismissive (not that much Christian grace shown by you) to dismiss me as a person so eagerly and decide to totally reject my blog WITHOUT EVEN LOOKING AT IT ??????

Regarding your accusation of me being a blasphemer because of an interpretation I gave on just ONE passage of scripture. It was not a new “secret revelation” given to me but describing a very popular well known interpretation given by other scholars of the Bible. I was simply trying to show that there WAS an explanation available to the verses you quoted as a rebuttal to your argument. Whether our interpretation is right or wrong, it STILL remains that there IS a plausible argument that cannot be ignored.

Let us NOW look at what I ACTUALLY said AND NOT LEAVE ANYTHING OUT and see if it was as blasphemous as you are trying to make me look:

“Remember Jesus said “when you do these things to the least of my servants, you do it UNTO ME”. Where were MOST of the apostles killed and MOST of the infant church martyred? Was it Jerusalem or Rome? Paul said in Phil 3:10 “that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death

Paul is saying that his death would be similar to the death of Jesus because he had become so united in fellowship with Jesus that (in a sense) Jesus died with him in Rome.

The book of Revelation states that Egypt and Sodom was a “figurative” place. It represented cities/countries that opposed God’s purposes. Jerusalem partially opposed their messiah – especially the Jewish leadership (thousands upon thousands of Jews, didn’t ,though). Rome reached a point where in its ENTIRETY it sought to destroy all believers. Jesus called the church His body and effectively those who destroy the body of Christ (believers) are actually seeking to destroy Him.

So, Jesus effectively died in Rome through His people who were dying because Jesus suffered for ALL time (past, present and future) on the cross and for ALL time has suffered in ALL things like us. “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin” Hebrews 4:15”

Marion you said:
“You state that CHRIST’S death would be conformed to PAUL’S…OURS?? NO I DID NOT!!!” Show me where I said that. Where did you get the idea that I was suggesting such a blasphemy????

Let me show you what I was ACTUALLY saying:

Notice Paul said “that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the ,fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death” Philippians 3:10

I was trying to show that if we (like the apostle Paul) become so filled with the Holy Spirit, so in tune with God and arrive at the place where we can also say “I am crucified with Christ” Gal 2:20 and “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price:” 1 Cor 6:19-20

Then we are also in that same place where WE TOO (like Paul) are being conformed to the death of Christ. Jesus stated in Matthew 25:40 “Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

Jesus identifies Himself with us and with our pain being a high priest who has also been touched with OUR infirmity “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin”. Hebrews 4:15

When His people suffer, HE suffers with us, being the perfect intercessor. So when His people are being martyred surely Jesus (who said “behold I am with you until the very end”) is there with us as we are dying for Him. Therefore (IN A VERY REAL SENSE – or “figuratively” [i.e symbolically]) He is being placed on the cross again, by the haters of Christ, when they kill His servants for upholding His Name.

Of course, the death of Jesus was TOTALLY unique and CANNOT be repeated as it is a once for all time sacrifice for our sins. ONLY Jesus could die for our sins. Our death cannot replicate the death of Christ, BUT we can enter into the fellowship of His sufferings by dying as martyrs. When we do so, we are dying as Christ’s representatives/ambassadors and therefore the Christ haters are trying to kill Jesus, all over again by killing us. The Book of Revelation states “where Christ FIGURATIVELY died. The key word is “FIGURATIVE” which means symbolic of.

It DOES NOT state where He physically died but rather where He figuratively died, doesn’t it? Therefore, it is not conclusively referring to Jerusalem but probably referring to Rome.

Deborah (Discerning the World)
Admin

Marion

Something I have learnt to do on this blog is apologize a lot for making mistakes, I would ask the same of you, to please apologize to John.

Redeemed
Guest
Redeemed

Marion, I too hope that you will see how you unjustly leveled unwarranted attacks and accusations against a brother in Christ who has taken the time to rightly divide the Word of God and share it.

You display an attitude of pride in that you state that you would not ever read John’s blog. Why not Marion? Perhaps if you did you might learn something. But you have passed judgment on John’s heart by calling him a blasphemer and other vicious names. God holds us accountable for falsely accusing our brothers and sisters in Christ. Yes, exhort and rebuke, but this is beyond the pale. Marion, do you realize how very serious this is?

For your own sake Marion, I hope and pray that you will humble yourself and apologize to John. He has adequately explained himself and deserves a response.

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Marion

Now that a further 5 weeks has gone by, I come to 2 conclusions. Either you are unwilling to retract from your accusation by apologising or you have not revisited this blog and not seen my above replies. I choose to believe the latter. Please know that IF you do visit this blog again and DO open up this page that I am very happy to accept your apology. However (for your own sake) it would be a nice humble thing to actually do this publicly (in the light of your serious public accusation).

John Chingford
Guest
John Chingford

Marion

If you would prefer to write to me by email (instead) then please feel free to do so. You can find my email address on the left hand side of my blog under the sub heading “my contact details”. My blog address is:

http://www.watchmanforjesus.blogspot.co.uk/

Deborah (Discerning the World)
Admin

Hi Marion

Yes it would be nice if you could/would apologize to John. Thanks smile

Debra
Guest
Debra

I have been reading all the comments on the: “Mystery Babylon” article. If you do some research on who basically owns and controls the Vatican, it should shed some light on this subject. Mystery Babylon the Great Catholic or Jewish?
Thank you for all the time and work that goes into this
web site and the sincere desire to seek the truth concerning to all things pertaining to God and His Word. (It is a very rare thing to find in these last days.)

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

As Redeemed stated above…we need to clear things up, come back and own up to our mistakes. So here I am.

Today I will make it clear that I do not support Stewart Best. He is preaching another gospel…an esoteric doctrine. Just had a discussion over the last few days with him. I did read “Dark Light” a couple of years ago but I read it through the lens of my own understanding. I couldn’t believe he was gnostic, but he has confirmed it more than once. He experiences Jesus apart from the Word of Christ and his own mystical experiences are his guiding Light.

I have visited the lightgate blogger site a few times in the past and again the other day. I now understand that he teaches a doctrine of works that is contrary to the gospel of faith. I feel a responsibility to make a correction on my own misinformed comments. Here is the last post I made to him:

We are to search out what is revealed in the Word. There’s no hidden pathway that we are told to find. The hidden things belong to God and we are not to go looking for something mysterious or forbidden. God gave specific instructions to Adam and Eve and it was the serpent that wanted them to delve into unknown, mysterious pathways.

There’s no mystery to the gospel. It is for all who will believe either “in” Christ or “on” Christ, depending which translation you’re reading. The jailer asked how to be saved. Believe in the Lord or believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 16:30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.

To clcotner…where does it say we have to go to hell? This whole teaching of going to the pit of hell is a strange teaching.

My point is that if the Lord is building his church, and we are all on the Narrow Road, you should not have a secret doctrine about it. Your teaching of the Narrow Road, instead of a pathway of faith, has become a mysterious, experiential, minefield that has Christ standing ready to give salvation only at the end. I can’t find that in Scripture. Salvation is for now. Work is complete. Faith is ongoing.

Ephesians 2:5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

That’s probably where I’ll leave it. Not interested in arguing back and forth. Let’s read the Word without our presuppositions and find out what it really says.

Tom (Discerning the World)
Admin
Member

Carolyn,

Do you still believe that Kim Clement is a prophet of God?

I agree ” Let’s read the Word without our presuppositions and find out what it really says.” Unfortunmately, the belief that a saint can lose his/her salvation or that a false prophet like Kim Clement is a prophet of God are indeed mere presuppositions and very dangerous ones at that.

Tom (Discerning the World)
Admin
Member

Carolyn, I can’t remember whether I asked you before but are you a Calvinist?

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

Tom…good heavens! I don’t identify with false prophets like Kim Clement. Never have. I do believe that the Bible teaches that a person can abandon, shipwreck, fall away, go back to the law or deny his faith but that’s what we disagreed on last time we talked and nothing in my Biblical position has changed in that regard.
There’s always that word “if”…conditional…
Colossians 1:21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I think many today have moved away from the gospel into the Contemplative, New Age, Witchcraft, Mysticism, Gnosticism, etc. etc. that has infiltrated the churches. There has been a great falling away from the faith.

Jesus says in John 8…”if” you continue in my Word. And again in John 15…if you abide in me and my words abide in you. I know we can argue the semantics but I know many personally that have begun in the Word and were deceived and have turned to a different Jesus. They have believed things like personal divinity, universalism and have exalted mystical experience above his Word.

I’m definitely NOT a Calvinist. That is a defamation of the character of God. God has chosen to give us a choice. “If” we choose him, and continue by faith, to believe his Word, he will be faithful to the end. God is a God of love, faithful to his promises. The whole TULIP doctrine creates a false God proving him to be unjust and unfair, although the average Calvinist would shrilly deny such a thing. I’ve never bought into that program, even though I did land in their camp for a bit. I was an unwitting fly…which managed to escape unscathed!

Tom (Discerning the World)
Admin
Member

Carolyn,

Colossians 1:23: Paul never doubted that they would continue in their faith. He affirmed that they would never lose their salvation because they had a settled faith – established (i.e. grounded” like a building on a strong foundation) and firm (hedraioi, “seated or settled”; they would never regret their salvation 2 Corinthians 7 :10). Those who move away from the faith never had a settled faith but in fact a false faith. Paul is making a distinction between a settled or well-grounded faith and a false faith. He is not saying that a saint can lose his/her salvation. If that were true he would have contradicted Jesus Christ who said,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. (John 10:27-30)

Those who believe they can pluck themselves out of God’s hands are boasting that they are greater and mightier than God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

The many you know who have turned away from the faith were never truly saved. Yes, they accepted the Christian faith in the same way Constantine and many others accepted the Christian faith but they were never saved. Read here.

John 8:31: Jesus did not say saints can lose their salvation. Many Jews paid attention to Jesus’ words without necessarily committing themselves to Him personally (cf. 6:53). It was possible to “believe” in the message of repentance and the coming kingdom without being born again. Continuing in the truth is a sign of true repentance and salvation. Many people believe in the death, resurrection and ascencion of Jesus Christ – like the Roman Catholics – but are they really saved? Calvinists believe in the death, resurrection and ascencion of Jesus Christ but are they saved?

I am very pleased to hear you are not a Calvinist.

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

I think we can argue all day about whether or not a person had real faith when they started out or not. Can we answer that? Only God sees the heart. You call them only “professing Christians”. I call them Christians who lost faith.

Matthew 13:19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

What do you do with verse 20 and 21 in the passage below?
2 Timothy 4: 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 2: 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Tom (Discerning the World)
Admin
Member

Carolyn,

The parable of the sower and the seed proves what I had said in my previous comment. First of all, the argument that God alone can discern whether someone is truly saved or not because He alone sees the heart, is not true. The apostle Peter attests to this when he says,

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. (1 Peter 3:15)

I never ask a person, “Do you believe in Jesus?” because even the devils believe and they tremble. I ask them, “Would you mind telling me how you were saved?” Of course we cannot see the heart but we can discern weather someone is saved or not when they bare their hearts to us by word of their testimonies. I have noticed in most cases the person would say, “I was baptized by immersion in water and immediately spoke in tongues” or “I was slain in the spirit and Jesus appeared to me while I lay on the floor. When I got up I was saved” or “I felt a very warm tinge like fire going through me when the pastor lay his hands on me and since then I have stopped using drugs.” These are but a few examples of testimonies people give when you ask them to tell you how they were saved. Do you really think because God alone knows the heart, He alone can know who is saved or not when people present you with these kinds of testimonies? Peter would never have encouraged us to give our testimonies of how we were saved if God alone knew the heart.

The notion that God alone knows the heart and therefore He alone knows who is saved or not leads to universalism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCgpUPHkgc8&hd=1

You are nowhere near in proving that Matthew 13:19-23 states that a saint can lose his salvation. In fact, it proves that those who hear the Gospel and do not respond in genuine faith to it are/were never saved. Surely you must know that those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and not those who superficially hear and understand the Gospel. Yes, they may respond to it superficially but they have no root in them and the seed sowed withers and dies. They have no root in them which means their hearts have not been changed. By “superficially” I mean something like, “Wow, if I give Jesus my heart He will give me everything I desire because He wants mew to prosper financially.” This is just an example but explains what I mean by superficially. The question is, does someone who responded in this way understand the Gospel? I don’t think so. Is he saved? I don’t think so?

Again 2 Peter 2:20-21 does not prove that a genuinely saved person can lose his salvation. To answer your question we need to go to the book of Romans.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (Romans 1:18-19)

Every single person knows there is a God, whether he’s an atheist or not. They KNOW because God has revealed it to them; for God has showed it unto them.” This is just another way of saying the seed (rudiments of the Gospel which is that God exists) is sown in ALL OF MANKIND’S HEARTS. Now! – either we believe this is true or we don’t. The reason why God reveals himself to ALL MEN in this way is that they should seek Him. Let us go to Acts 17.

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us (Act 17:26-27)

Peter refers to those who have come to escape the pollution of the world through a KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I have already cited an example where someone escaped the pollution of drug abuse when he heard the rudiments of the Gospel message but was actually never saved.

Verse 20 and 21 of 2 Peter 2 refer to false teachers and their followers who had available to them sufficient knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. However, when they rejected this knowledge their end was deeper corruption (again entangled in it and overcome) and presumably a more severe degree of punishment. They would have been better off if they had never come to know the Gospel, the way of righteousness and the sacred (holy commandment (i.e. the apostolic message of salvation) than to have known the truth and deliberately violated it.

The bottom-line is: THEY WERE NEVER SAVED.

By the way, why don’t you believe what Jesus says in John 10:27-30? Are you also rejecting his truth?

I really don’t want to argue with you all day. Whoever rejects the truth in John 10:27-30 will probably never accept the truth.

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

Tom: I believe the whole counsel of God, I believe all of the Bible including John 10:27-30…I know his voice and I follow him and not in an esoteric, contemplative, mystical or hidden (occult) way but in Truth!

My testimony is as Martha’s …John 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

I also do not like arguing but discussion can be good. When one person feels he has the ultimate corner on the truth i.e. OSAS doctrine and there’s no room for a respectful give and take, then something is wrong. I’ve been around for 60 years and seen quite a bit. So when you talk down to me, it’s not appreciated. If I was talking heresy…there might be cause for alarm or cause for a stern rebuke, but I am quoting Scripture in context. I rest my case…and take my leave. I wish it could have been a more pleasant exchange for Christ’s sake.

Tom (Discerning the World)
Admin
Member

Carolyn,

If you believe the whole counsel of God, as you say, then you must also believe that his Word can never contradict itself. Your view that a saint can lose his salvation contradicts Jesus Christ’s words in John 10:27-30. That’s not believing the whole counsel of God. That’s making Jesus Christ a liar. We dare not give and take when it comes to the doctrine of salvation. Either the one is right and the other one wrong. You cannot have two contradictory truths in regard to the doctrine of salvation or anything else in the Bible, for that matter. The Bible is not a book of contradictions which make up the whole counsel of God.

With due respect Carolyn, age has nothing to do with being correct or incorrect. Is presenting the truth to you a way of talking down to you? Don’t be silly. If you had quoted Scripture in context you would never have said that John 10:27-30 together with all the other relevant passages in Scripture – which you believe prove that one can lose his salvation – make up the whole counsel of God. God is not a liar or a schizophrenic who says one thing in one instance and another thing in another instance. God is consistent. Don’t you know that? And if you think in saying so is talking down to you, let me remind you what the Word of God (in context) says.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)

You are suggesting that Jesus Christ cannot make good (fulfill) the magnanimous work of salvation He (not you or I or anyone else) started in you because He is not to be trusted. Paul was confident that He can do it. Why not you?

Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:4-6)

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:24-25)

I would have thought that pursuing the truth and proclaiming it forthright is indeed a pleasant exchange for the sake of Christ. Compromising the truth is definitely NOT for the sake of Christ. If you think so it may be best for you to leave, as you yourself have said.

The doctrine that one can lose his/her salvation is heresy. Indeed, it is one of the worst kind of heresies because it demeans Christ and his finished work on the cross as well as his magnanimous promises in John 10:27-30, Numbers 23:19 and Philippians 1:4-6. And that, my dear, is the whole counsel of God.

To know the voice of Jesus is to believe what He said. The doctrine that a saint can lose his/her salvation, is not the voice of Jesus. It is the voice of another Jesus. And if perchance you may again think I am talking down to you, allow me to remind you what the Word of God says – which you acknowledge is the whole counsel of God.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

Please tell me, Carolyn, are you going to lose your salvation? If not, then who is the one who secures your salvation – you or Jesus Christ?

Carolyn
Guest
Carolyn

The fact that I’m an old gal was just to say that I wasn’t born yesterday, I’ve been in the Word a long time and you can’t pull rank on me…even if you are ten years older. And we could have a good exchange if it was done without accusing me of being silly and not listening, and not believing the Word.

I guess there is only one way of looking at this…your way. You talk down to me because you think I’m too simple minded to grasp the truth with the same understanding you do. You accuse me of compromising the truth. I could accuse you of misinterpreting it.

Would it be possible to talk without using put-downs?

The literal and plain speech of the Bible has not gone through a process of OSAS teaching in my background or brain. I have no conflict with the Bible. I just believe what it says. I’m not fearful that it will not back up my own agenda because I have none.

On sites like yours, where there is an agenda, be it Calvinism or New Age or Purpose Driven or Emergent or Zionism, WoF, NAR, ad infinitum. if someone like myself doesn’t go along with their agenda, there is an angry response. That to me is a red flag that the issue has been set above the Word of God in it’s fundamental simplicity of believing in Christ.

This is your favourite verse…John 10:27…I know you love that verse but I don’t quote it out fear of losing my salvation. It’s testimony to Christ’s power to save and keep.

God is faithful…but we still go through tests and trials. Is that necessary if we can’t end up in unbelief? Yes, my friend, there are dangers on the road…unbelief, deception, lust, etc. If they weren’t dangers, why bother mentioning them. But if we stay in the Word and prayer, we will be kept safe.
Hebrews 3:12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

And finally, Christ has secured my salvation if I continue in the faith and do not decide tomorrow that I would rather serve a different Jesus.
(which I’m not likely to do being this far along the road…my faith has been tested and retested and I can attest to the fact that it is genuine)/

Tom (Discerning the World)
Admin
Member

Carolyn wrote

Would it be possible to talk without using put-downs?

I find it rather interesting that you should accuse me of putting you down when you unscrupulously put down Jesus and his truth.

Your words have been strong and hard against Me, says the Lord. Yet you say, What have we spoken against You? (Mal 3:13)

Yes, I love John 10:27-30 AND Hebrews 7:25 AND 2 Corinthians 1:20-24 AND Philippians 1:4-6 and many other verses that prove to me that a saint cannot lose his salvation.

I just love your “if” in “And finally, Christ has secured my salvation if I continue in the faith and do not decide tomorrow that I would rather serve a different Jesus.” Your conditional “if” places you in a works-based salvation. What you are saying in effect is, “Jesus has secured my salvation but his security is incumbent on my performance and track record.” If you should decide to follow a different Jesus you cannot claim to having been saved. I can prove it to you from Scripture.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Co 7:10).

The Amplified Bible says it thus.

For godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief (the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world) is deadly [breeding and ending in death].

And by the way, tests and trials have absolutely nothing to do with the loss of salvation, not even close.

And with that I close my case.

Deborah (Discerning the World)
Admin

Carolyn

You come onto this site to tell us that you are right and we are wrong, however when inform you with scripture that your thinking is not correct you get all huffy and puffy and try blow DTW down. Amazing…

Carry on doing good works trying to secure your salvation….ok…. and when you think you have lost your salvation please let us know the time, date and what you did to lose it.