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Dave Hunt and the book: The Power of the Spirit

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Dave Hunt and the book: The Power of the Spirit

ThePowerOfTheSpirit Dave Hunt and the book: The Power of the Spirit

Dave Hunt and the book: The Power of the Spirit

Unfortunately this article has come about due to over 100 comments that were placed under another article on Calvinism.  The comments started where someone mentioned a book that was written by Dave Hunt called:  The Power of the Spirit that was re-edited from Andrew Murray’s book of the same name, but originally was derived from the works of  William LawThe Address to the Clergy.  William Law was later in his life influenced by Jakob Boehme a German Christian mystic / theologian

Now it pains me so to have to put up this article because there are very troubling quotes within The Power of the Spirit  a book written 42+ years ago.   DTW is not against Dave Hunt because I can’t fault him on any of his doctrine.  But this little book, and little it is, is problematic.

I contacted Tom McMahon from The Berean Call who said to me, “anything he has written or recorded that is contrary to the Scriptures and we will consider it and make corrections where they are necessary.”

So I emailed off a couple of quotes from The Power of The Spirit, and asked Tom to have a look at them and come back to DTW – I show these emails in the comment section below.

Please note that the comments below are very negative against Dave Hunt, and some of the things he has been accused of are ridiculous and stems from pure nit picking on behalf of those commenting.

Please do read all the comments right to the end to find out what happens in this gripping saga;  ‘the life of Dave Hunt…on DTW’.  – DTW vindicates Dave Hunt from any wrong doing.

*** I will be moving all the comments from the Calvinist article over to this article.  In the mean time please comment here and NOT under and Calvinist articles unless you want to speak about Calvinism. 

pixel Dave Hunt and the book: The Power of the Spirit

158 comments to Dave Hunt and the book: The Power of the Spirit

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I see in this article an attempt by Dave Hunt to undermine the Word of God, via undermining the KJV. He does not seem to believe in God’s promise to preserve His Word.
    I believe the KJV is the faithful translation of God’s preserved Word for the English speaking world. Hunt seems not to believe that. This is too bad. If God has not preserved His Word from generation to generation (as stated in the Bible), then we are all in the dark and have no solid foundation to build our faith on.

    I’ve already said somewhere on this blog that “If Dave Hunt is not a wolf, then I don’t know who else is” (See what he replied when confronted about his editing and publishing William Law’s book. Simply unbelievable. Go and search who Law is). He is a wolf of the worst kind, because he seems so true and trustworthy. And sincerely, anything truthful a wolf like Hunt puts out will just be to lure people in order to deceive them. I prefer to avoid such men and anything they write/publish, no matter how sound it may be.

    Let me quote from William Saunders blog:

    “God’s Promise To Preserve His Word

    Psalm 12:6-7 – “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”

    God has preserved His word with the COMPLETE & PRESERVED incorrupt “Textus Receptus” manuscripts.

    The corrupted Roman Catholic manuscripts, Textus Vaticanus & Textus Sinaiticus, came through the Gnostics and are incomplete. These manuscripts are not ALL Truth.

    When loving & submitting to The Word Of God, love & submit to the incorrupt preserved COMPLETE Word Of God.

    When studying, use the Authorized Version (KJV) AND the Greek/Hebrew Lexicons with a great dictionary.”

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Reply to Paul # 34

    Paul, why are you attempting to turn this discussion into a debate over the KJV? Dave Hunt never undermined the KJV!!

    From what I understand, Dave Hunt is in a nursing home and not able to defend himself against false accusations. But of course his work is public and open to being critiqued.

    Dave Hunt is/was not a perfect person, but your assessment of him as a wolf is unfair and unkind. Like all of us, he has/had his flaws and blind spots. Paul, do YOU have any blind spots?

    Dave Hunt is/was a very courageous man who dared to expose the evils of Calvinism and go where so many will/would not go. He is deserving of respect for that.

    God will judge his motives, his actions, and also his missteps and his legacy if tarnished due to any fault of his. And I think he would be the first to agree with that.

    Actually I was shocked to see what you posted here in regard to this topic. It was totally irrelevant and inappropriate. Unless you have changed your stand since you last posted to your blog, you have one of the best explanations of salvation and beyond that I have ever read and it goes directly counter to Calvinism. So why have you not joined in the chorus of denouncing it? That is the point and has nothing to do with the KJV.

    I hope you return and correct and clarify your statements. Grace and peace to you brother.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    I am not going to turn this topic into a KJV argument. I am NOT going to diss Dave Hunt because of his thoughts regarding the KJV. The gospel he follows is pretty much close to 100% truth! (from what I know about) Satan is using this KJV argument to turn Christians against each other. Please I ask that you look at this logically and stop straining at gnats and swallowing flies.

  • Carolyn

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed…thanks for the acknowledgement! I’m happy for all the wisdom coming from you as well, and many others.

    As per Dave Hunt – we see a blind hatred for him in certain camps. This is because Dave has gone where others fear to tread. He is not right on everything…because that’s the way God designed it…but he has researched and written with integrity. Nuf said.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn,

    I am NOT a KJVO and I don’t want to go there. You must have noticed that in my other comments on this blog. My first language is french, and I read Louis Second for 20 years, when I knew nothing about the underlying Texts issue (Louis Second is translated from the corrupt Westcott-Hort Greek text). In french I now read Osterval or Martin which are good old translations from the Textus Receptus. In English I read KJV because I believe it is the accurate translation of the Textus Receptus for the English Speaking world. note: NKJV is thoroughly corrupted and deceptive, even though it claims to be an improvement of the KJV.

    It seems the label KJVO is the one most detractors of the KJV like to throw at ALL defenders of the KJV, because then it is easy to dismiss them. Do you notice that you are doing the same thing Calvinists do to all non-Calvinists by labelling them Arminians? Read the following introduction by David Cloud to his book “FOR LOVE OF THE BIBLE” (note: I am NOT a follower of Cloud)

    The “Cult” of “King James Onlyism”?

    I t has been said that today‘s defenders of the King James Bible form a new cult that was created by a handful of misguided men. One writer claims that the ―King James Only position can be traced to Seventh-day Adventist Benjamin Wilkinson, who wrote Our Authorized Bible Vindicated in 1930. This is as incredible as claiming that fundamentalism can be traced to a snake handler or that Dispensationalism can be traced to a Jesuit priest. Others think the defense of the KJV can be linked to Peter Ruckman of Pensacola, Florida.
    This type of misrepresentation has always been part and parcel with the defense of the modern texts and versions, but it has increased in intensity in recent years and is finding a home even among those who claim to be fundamentalists and Bible-believing Baptists. Pastor Denis Gibson, Calvary Baptist Church, Brampton, Ontario, Canada, who has been in the ministry since 1958, gives the following testimony:
    I see a real hostility that has been generated in the minds of some of the younger pastors. There does not seem to be, on their part, a serious interest in dealing with this issue. … It is the hostility, however, that is troubling. Sides are forming and deep prejudices are evident. To be ‗a King James man‘ is now a term of opprobrium. This opposition is within ‗so-called‘ evangelicalism, not as in the past, from the liberal-modernist camp (Letter of April 19, 1995).
    Pastor Gibson has considerable experience on both sides of this issue. He was a Presbyterian minister for 10 years, then pastored a Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada congregation for 17 years before becoming an Independent Baptist.
    There can be no doubt that the King James Bible has been the historic Bible of English-speaking believers for almost four centuries. In fact, the King James Bible is a revision of that line of Received Text English Bibles stretching back to Tyndale in 1525. Today, though, this ancient position is looked upon as new and divisive! King Ahab charged faithful Elijah with troubling Israel when, in fact, it was Ahab, with his apostasies and improvisations, who was doing the troubling (1 Kings 18:17, 18). We are convinced that this is the case today. It is the modern version supporters, with their roots in nineteenth-century Rationalism, who are troubling the churches with their innovations.
    9
    Before we show the fallacy of claiming that King James defenders are a twentieth-century cult, we must establish our definition of terms. What is ―King James Only? To make proper sense of things, it must be recognized that there is a tremendous variety of opinion among those who defend the Textus Receptus (also called the TR, the Received Text, and the Traditional Text in this study) and the King James Bible. Those who fall into the scope of our study are those who see the Received Text as the preserved text of Holy Scripture and who view the major Protestant translations thereof (the KJV, the Luther Bible, etc.) as accurate translations of the correct Text. Within this general camp there are differences pertaining to exactly how the TR and the KJV are perceived. There are differences in regard to the Received Text, some believing it is settled and perfect in the standard Reformation editions, others believing it still needs some minor revision. There are also differences of opinion in regard to the KJV. Some exalt the KJV to the same level of authority as the underlying Text. Others have respect for the KJV as a generally accurate translation of the correct manuscripts but believe it needs minor improvement. A number of the writers whose works appear in David Otis Fuller‘ books took this position:
    We fully admit that there are here and there passages of which the translation might be improved, as, for instance, ‗love‘ for ‗charity‘ throughout I Cor. 13. But we deprecate any alteration as a measure that the smallest sprinkling of good would deluge us with a flood of evil (Joseph Philpot, ―The Authorized Version—1611,‖ True Or False? Third Printing, 1978, p. 21 ).
    No reasonable person imagines that the translators were infallible or that their work was perfect, but no one acquainted with the facts can deny that they were men of outstanding scholarship, well qualified for their important work, or that with God‘s blessing they completed their great task with scrupulous care and fidelity (Terence Brow, ―The Learned Men,‖ Which Bible? fifth edition, 1984 reprint, p. 13).
    In speaking of this class of changes we do not fail to recognize, what is admitted by all competent authorities, that the A.V. could be corrected in a number of passages where the meaning is now obscured because of changes which three centuries have brought about in the meaning of English words, or where diligent study or recent discoveries have brought to light better readings. Such instances, however, are comparatively few, whereas the R.V. gives us about 36,000 departures, small and great, from the A.V. What shall we say of such a host of changes? (Philip Mauro, ―Which Version?‖ True Or False? pp. 101, 102).
    This is the type of variety to which I refer. All of these positions could be summarized as ―King James Only‖ in that all believe that the King James Bible is the only accurate English translation of the preserved text of Scripture currently published. All of the varied positions on the TR and the KJV are based upon the same promises of Scripture and the same basic theological platform. All reject the critical Westcott-Hort line of Greek texts. All believe the modern English versions are founded upon a corrupted family of Greek manuscripts. All
    10
    emphasize the importance of the doctrine of biblical preservation in settling this issue.
    Some, though, as we have noted, persist in identifying every King James defender as a follower of Peter Ruckman, who, from his base in Pensacola, Florida, has been occupied for many years with his weird, angry tirade toward the members of ―the Alexandrian cult.‖
    One fellow who is guilty of this defines a ―KJV onlyite‖ as ―one who believes that the KJV is the only legitimate translation in English, that it perfectly preserves God‘s word in the form He intended for us to have, that it is unalterable, and any revision would de facto constitute corruption, that the English is inherently adequate for all matters, and therefore the Greek and Hebrew are now irrelevant, even unnecessary. It is this point of view that had its seeds in Benjamin Wilkinson‘s writings, was transmitted through J.J. Ray, then expounded in a modified and more extreme form by Fuller and Ruckman, evolving into the movement as it is now constituted.‖
    This is a slanderous caricature of what probably the majority of King James defenders believe, including the late J.J. Ray and D.O. Fuller. Neither man believed that the King James Bible is incapable of revision. Dr. Fuller said: ―We do not say that the KJV does not permit of changes. There are a number that could be and should be made, but there is a vast difference between a change and an error‖ (Fuller, Is the King James Version Nearest to the Original Autographs? nd., p. 1). J.J. Ray said, ―There are a few mis-translations in the King James English, but every word is based upon a Greek word in the Textus Receptus which was given by the inspiration of God, and has been providentially preserved for us today‖ (God Wrote Only One Bible, p. 102).
    Though Ray and Fuller believed the Authorized Version is an adequate translation, neither man taught that Greek and Hebrew are irrelevant or that the KJV could in no wise be revised. To say that the KJV is the only legitimate existing standard translation in English is not to say that it is unalterable. To say that the KJV accurately preserves God‘s Word is not to say that any revision would de facto constitute corruption. To say that the English translation is inherently adequate is not to say that the Greek and Hebrew are irrelevant and unnecessary.
    It is this type of careless, inaccurate, unfair, broad-brushed characterization which has darkened the entire debate surrounding the KJV vs. modern versions.
    To lump every defender of the King James Bible into one monolithic camp and to pretend that all believe the same thing and march to the same piper‘s tune in regard to Bible texts and versions is either ignorance or dishonesty. It is one thing to criticize the perceived errors and extremism and peculiarities of some individual personality. That is easy to do inasmuch as every member of the human race has some peculiarities! It is quite another thing to pretend that all
    11
    defenders of the King James Bible are followers of some man. Many, though, are guilty of making this very charge. They are caught up with the personalities of the movement.
    Let me also emphasize, because I know from past experience that some will misunderstand and misrepresent my position, that I am not encouraging the variety which exists among King James Bible defenders. I‘m simply saying that this variety is a reality that must be acknowledged. If I had my way everyone would hold the RIGHT position, which is, of course, MY position! I believe the King James Bible is an accurate and lovely translation of the preserved Greek and Hebrew texts of Scripture. I do not believe the King James Bible contains any errors. I believe that God had His hand upon the KJV in a special way because of the singular role it would play in the transmission of the Word of God during a long and crucial epoch of church history. In contrast with the modern English versions, I believe the KJV is based upon a superior underlying text; it was produced by superior translators; it incorporates superior translation techniques; it demonstrates a superior theology; it embodies a superior style of English; it was created in a superior era; and it has a superior history. I believe the King James Bible is the inspired Word of God because it accurately translates the inspired, preserved text.
    To reject the King James Bible for the modern versions is one‘s privilege this side of eternity; to claim or imply, on the other hand, that the King James Bible is no longer defensible and is only guarded today by sentimental, tradition-bound cultists is to darken the truth.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I hate Calvinism (and love Calvinists) as much as anyone else on this blog. In fact I feel defiled and abused just at the thought of the god of Calvinism.

    Now, I believe that a handful of verses from Scriptures, starting with John 3:16, should be sufficient to expose Calvinism for what it is (a doctrine of demons, the gospel of Satan) while pointing people to the truth.
    I do not see the need to write books upon books, debate upon debate, articles upon articles, set up ministries, etc, just to counter and expose Calvinism. We do not do that with Mohammedanism or Buddhism or Hinduism or Russelites or Mormonism, etc. In my opinion, Calvinism is not that much different. Too much is like not enough. Therefore, many of those so-called experts at exposing cults (and calvinism is a cult) are actually agents of the devil to bring other deceptions through the back door. We have to be vigilant and do not give anyone a pass just because he has done so much good at defending “certain” aspects of the truth. Missler, Oakland, MacArthur and Prasch are good examples you have courageously exposed on this blog.

    Dear sister Deborah,
    I have believed (and I want to continue believing) that this blog is all about truth at all cost, wherever it will lead us. that this blog is no respecter of persons.
    I want to believe this blog does not have any sacred cow.
    You have not given a pass to big names from the past as Spurgeon or Wesley or Luther or Calvin.
    You have exposed many who to my estimation who to my estimation may not have done things as serious as the fruit of Hunt.
    Hunt is a non cessationist, tongues advocate, ecumenist (best friends with Chuck Smith and Chuck Missler for example) just to name a few.

    I want to believe that when you discover who Jacob Boehme–>William Law is, AND what Hunt has done to endorse, promote and spread their occultic, New Age, Kabalistic teachings, you will change your opinion.

    It is not because those who have exposed Hunt so far have mostly been Calvinists that what they say is to be dismissed. I have done my homework and researched on Law and Boehme. You will not believe your eyes if you browse Law’s book that Andrew Murray first, then Hunt have re-edited, added introductions and republished under the title “Power of the Spirit” for their generations.
    I beg you to have the courage to consider it:
    http://passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/address1.htm
    http://passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/address2.htm
    http://passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/address3.htm

    When you read that, you will understand many things about Hunt, for example his non cessasionist view of Scripture and the allegation made by someone that Hunt does not believe in a litteral Hell (I don’t know if this is factual, but there is no smoke without fire): you know what, his “master/mentor” (I know this is a strong word) Law does not believe in hell at all. Law is considered a last days prophet with new revelations from God not found in scripture. I don’t want to go into the things I found in this book, just browse it for yourself.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Just a note… a KJVO person is someone who believes you can’t be saved reading any other bible except the KJV – which is ludacris. Paul is not a KJVO.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Thanks Debs for this clarification about KJVO.

    Hunt wrote an introduction to and re-edited Law’s occultic and New Age book…42 years ago (1971).
    The original title is “AN HUMBLE, EARNEST, AND Affectionate ADDRESS TO THE CLERGY”

    TBC is STILL promoting and selling the book on their web site:

    You can read Hunt’s introduction at
    http://www.amazon.com/Power-Spirit-William-Law/dp/0875088228#reader_B008B93QEE and see how by his own words he admits that he is a disciple of Murray–>Law (and so indirectly of Boehme)

    But the real original work is in the links of my post 23.
    Anyone who reads that and does not see the occultism and New Age right away is, I may dare say, not born of God.
    Does anyone think in 42 years (at least) Hunt was not warned nor had any opportunity to see his error and turn back from Law?

  • Carolyn

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul…I appreciate your comments and I am relieved that you believe that the King James is not inerrant. That’s all I ask except that you allow me freedom to read and compare other translations for myself. I see that you are not exclusive. So we agree.

    And the most important thing for me is that we encourage and build each other up in our precious faith that God has given us. I believe that the faith we have…in ourselves and others is what needs to be protected, guarded, nourished, and treasured above all else. The manuscripts and the texts come and go, but the Living Enduring Word of God (Christ) lasts forever. It is our faith that needs to grow and develop.

    Discerning error is a hard service because it is sometime “issue” oriented and I would agree that over emphasis on some of those issues acts as a detractor from the development of genuine faith. I believe any genuine Christian would agree.

    We need to be patient with each other, be aware of error (everyone has some) and above all, love each other while we are discussing issues that are not detrimental or destructive to our faith.

    I love these verses that spell out the essence of Christianity…”like precious faith”.
    2 Peter 1:1-3
    King James Version (KJV)
    1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

    God Bless you Paul!

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Reply to Paul’s # 23

    First of all, I do NOT follow any man, but I have read Dave Hunt’s works for many years and have benefited greatly from them. I have not detected error in them, but rather the exposing of error. That is not to say that Dave Hunt is perfect and worthy to be idolized as no man is. I have seen nothing but speaking the truth in love in his works. No doubt he has his blind spots as we all do.
    I have seen criticism of him by people such as Barbara Aho masquerading as a watchperson when in fact her rapidnet site warrants a warning label.
    FIRSTLY, Dave Hunt has always maintained belief in a literal hell, eternal punishment as is reflected in this quote from the ministry in which he served for a major portion of his life:

    We believe that at death the souls of the redeemed pass immediately into Christ’s presence, to remain there until the resurrection of the body at Christ’s return for the Church. We also believe that at death the souls of the lost go to Hell, where they remain until they are brought before Christ at the Great White Throne final judgment to be judged according to their works AND CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE there to remain eternally.

    To even repeat the inSINuationallegation that Hunt did not believe in hell is SIN.One should not mention such as this without documentation.

    SECONDLY, I have read most of Hunt’s books and never detected in any way that he was a non-cessionist. It is quite possible that he held this view personally, but to the best of my knowledge never sought to promote it or make an issue of it.

    THIRDLY, the issue of William Law and mystical influences such as Andrew Murray and A.W. Tozer. Both Murray and Tozer have slipped under the radar and their error is commonly overlooked and I include myself in that number. I see it now, but can understand and extend grace to those who have yet to detect it. Dave Hunt has never promoted mysticism and in fact has exposed many an error connected to it.

    I have had The Power of the Spirit by William Law edited by Dave Hunt in my library for a long time. I dusted it off and looked at it again after my first reading many years ago. Hunt wrote it over 40 years ago. It is still offered by TBC. Reading this work some years ago did not sway me toward mysticism or any false teacher. I have looked at it again, this time purposely looking for any such influence. I did not find any. What I did find was exhortation to live a Spirit-surrendered life, dedicated to the Lord. I cannot speak to his other works as I have not read them. But I readily admit that his associations later in life are concerning.

    To say that Law was Hunt’s “master mentor” is tossing around accusations that you cannot possibly know.

    A quote form The Power of the Spirit: Look only to the Spirit, have no confidence in the flesh, yield yourself first of all in faith to be the living proof of His saving grace and power. This is the only firm foundation for any revival of true Christianity in the Church p. 158………..When self is denied to take up the cross, there is an end to worldly wisdom with its reliance upon fleshly methods and superficial lpiety. The gospel is again preached not with the wisdom of words but in the demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit. P. 160

    It seems that the worst Law could be accused of here is extreme holiness and that is debatable. If those in the Church today would follow his exhortations it certainly would be a breath of fresh air!
    Perhaps one of Law’s mistakes in judgment was how he sequestered himself. This may have led to his regrettable affinity to Jakob Bohme who negatively influenced him into mysticism. Law passed from the earthly scene in 1701. I think we can assume that he is with the Lord and all things are clear to him now.

    With all due respect to Paul, I think here we see a straining at a gnat which borders on nit-picking designed to discredit Dave Hunt’s larger body of works. Paul seems focused on black-listing Dave Hunt. Paul obviously seeks the truth, but certainly there are bigger fish to fry.

    Bro. Hunt whom I had the pleasure of meeting in person once and hearing several times in person, impressed me as a gentle and gracious man, yet courageously defending the truth. He was never deeply embedded with Missler’s organization and even exposed one of the later works of Missler in the TBC newsletter. He took a lot of heat and is still literally dispised by Calvinists who mistakenly refer to him as Arminian in his theology because they can’t see the forest for the trees. And many attack him for his dispensational position and pretrib eschatology.

    I know this is long, but I felt it important to correct on some points and clarify on others what Paul said and put it into perspective.

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Reply # 2 to Paul’s #23

    I have waded through most of the first link Paul furnished. I say waded as it was laborious due to the lack of sectioning and flowery language of that time.

    I was purposely looking to ferret out false teaching. Perhaps Paul can point it out in case I missed it.

    What I saw was an exhortation to pastors and Christian leaders to abandon a works-based salvation and false religious traditions. He called both Roman Catholics and “Protestants” to task and addressed the extremes of doctrine and man’s reasoning as opposed to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    I did not see that he was teaching “continuing revelation” but instead leaning on the Holy Spirit for continuing INSPIRATION. That is something that is greatly lacking in today’s Church and apparently is nothing new. But so few are addressing it and therefore iet flourishes.

    I would be very interested to see if anyone else read through this first link and found anything offbase. Quite frankly, I don’t have time to labor through the other 2 links. I don’t see a major concern or snare here. Most people aren’t going to investigate Law or turn to his works – they are way too burdensome to ingest. That is precisely why Dave Hunt edited and revised the text to make it more readable.

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    There are actually several factions of KJVonlyism.
    Some merely prefer it as the more acceptable translation. These believe that God can use other translations to bring someone to salvation.
    Others believe that the KJV was supernaturally preserved from the Hebrew/Greek and is
    most accurate. Not sure if they believe other translations can lead one to salvation.
    Then there are the Ruckmanites who are out in left field and hold the KJV as an idol of
    worship to the exclusion of any and all other translations.

    The more rigid groups fail to acknowledge that the KJV has errors. Many of them believe that if you take out the “thees” and “thous” you are tampering with Holy Scripture which is ridiculous. I don’t think either Jesus or the prophets or Apostles spoke in King’s English!

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Sorry, didn’t mean to hijack the thread and open up KJV only here. But since the topic came up……………..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I have not read it but today I will most definitely get around to it…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    You are right, this blog is no respecter of persons, and I will most definitely look into these things. If they are true, then, we do have a problem. Please give me time to research this fully. What does bother me is that Hunt would consider himself a disciple of a man, when it is the Holy Spirit who teaches us.

    If anyone can get me Dave Hunt’s direct contact details I would be very happy. This might be something we need to talk to him about directly… Because if it’s NOT true, we can’t have rumors like this spreading about him. But if it is true, well….

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs, Dave Hunt can’t be contacted. He is of advanced age and in a nursing home. He still appears on the website as his materials are available. But the torch has been passed to T.A. Macmahon.

    Therefore my previous point that Dave can’t defend himself. His work is complete and will have to be examined on its own merits. I have not as yet seen what else Paul has said, but it doesn’t really matter. It can’t be resolved.

    I pretty much had my say about the allegations Paul was making against Dave and found them groundless and downright petty. And I am certainly NO respecter of persons.

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul (Continue in His Word) wrote:

    I hate Calvinism (and love Calvinists) as much as anyone else on this blog. In fact I feel defiled and abused just at the thought of the god of Calvinism.
    Now, I believe that a handful of verses from Scriptures, starting with John 3:16, should be sufficient to expose Calvinism for what it is (a doctrine of demons, the gospel of Satan) while pointing people to the truth.
    I do not see the need to write books upon books, debate upon debate, articles upon articles, set up ministries, etc, just to counter and expose Calvinism. We do not do that with Mohammedanism or Buddhism or Hinduism or Russelites or Mormonism, etc. In my opinion, Calvinism is not that much different. Too much is like not enough. Therefore, many of those so-called experts at exposing cults (and calvinism is a cult) are actually agents of the devil to bring other deceptions through the back door. We have to be vigilant and do not give anyone a pass just because he has done so much good at defending “certain” aspects of the truth. Missler, Oakland, MacArthur and Prasch are good examples you have courageously exposed on this blog.
    Dear sister Deborah,
    I have believed (and I want to continue believing) that this blog is all about truth at all cost, wherever it will lead us. that this blog is no respecter of persons.
    I want to believe this blog does not have any sacred cow.
    You have not given a pass to big names from the past as Spurgeon or Wesley or Luther or Calvin.
    You have exposed many who to my estimation who to my estimation may not have done things as serious as the fruit of Hunt.
    Hunt is a non cessationist, tongues advocate, ecumenist (best friends with Chuck Smith and Chuck Missler for example) just to name a few.
    I want to believe that when you discover who Jacob Boehme–>William Law is, AND what Hunt has done to endorse, promote and spread their occultic, New Age, Kabalistic teachings, you will change your opinion.
    It is not because those who have exposed Hunt so far have mostly been Calvinists that what they say is to be dismissed. I have done my homework and researched on Law and Boehme. You will not believe your eyes if you browse Law’s book that Andrew Murray first, then Hunt have re-edited, added introductions and republished under the title “Power of the Spirit” for their generations.
    I beg you to have the courage to consider it:
    http://passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/address1.htm
    http://passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/address2.htm
    http://passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/address3.htm
    When you read that, you will understand many things about Hunt, for example his non cessasionist view of Scripture and the allegation made by someone that Hunt does not believe in a litteral Hell (I don’t know if this is factual, but there is no smoke without fire): you know what, his “master/mentor” (I know this is a strong word) Law does not believe in hell at all. Law is considered a last days prophet with new revelations from God not found in scripture. I don’t want to go into the things I found in this book, just browse it for yourself.

    I realize Paul sent this before I replied with my # 28/29. But the way he is carelessly throwing around allegations is rather alarming. In my responses I defused several of these.

    Hunt condemned the “charismatic renewal” and Law criticized the Pentecostals and other Protestant groups. To make the accusation that Hunt was a non-cessessionist is hitting below the belt. Dave never advocated speaking in tongues. What he did in his private life is between him and the Lord.

    From what Paul has said here, because I did not see alarm bells ringing “Occult!” in the link he sent of Law that I may not be born of God – in other words I am not a believer!! Incredible!!! I did have the “courage” to read at least one of the links which took much time due to the format and flowery language indicative of that time. I didn’t see any nits to pick.

    As I said, I HAVE the book Hunt wrote based on Law’s teachings. Paul is WAY out in left field to say that Hunt was a disciple of Law. It is the 1971 revision and I stated that it is still offered on the TBN website although one has to search for it. In the book Hunt makes the statement:

    …although, like Murray, I cannot agree with all of Law’s teachings, I too believe all included herein to be soundly based upon Scriptures.

    It does trouble me that Hunt respected Murray, but as I said, Murray is not high on the radar and many others, including myself, missed the subtlety of the error. So maybe in Paul’s eyes that makes both me and Hunt nonbelievers? Hunt may not have even been aware of the relationship later in his life between Law and that Jacob guy. This was in the 1700’s. Good grief man!

    Also, I have not found any basis for Paul’s allegation that Law did not believe in Hell. I clearly pointed out that Hunt does.

    And Paul’s statement that Calvinism can be struck down simply with John 3:16 and there is no need to write books and speak against it in detail is stuff of fantasy and naivete. Calvinists can twist John 2:16 like a pretzel to fit their perverted doctrine. Hunt did a courageous and needed work to dissect their lies and break it down so everyone could understand. I THANK Deborah for posting this article by Hunt. For Paul to bring on this attack to try and bring him down is at least not helpful and certainly a display of ignorance.

    Sadly IMHO Paul sets himself up as an accuser of the brethren rather than a watchman on the wall. I am sorry to speak this way, but I have never hesitated to call a spade a spade. I would never question Paul’s salvation as I have no right to do that as he has done with others.

  • Marion

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    A better way to frame this discussion about Dave Hunt, is not that he doesn’t believe in a literal hell, but rather believes in hell in a manner not supported by Scripture. He argues that a “flame” is not a physical flame…WHAT????
    If it’s not a “flame” as we understand the word…why would God uses such terms? To confuse us?? I think not!

    Here’s the link…straight from the horse’s mouth.

    http://www.thebereancall.org/node/6691

    Confusing, if you ask me. I’d rather stick with what is PLAINLY spoken of in Scripture.
    Decide for yourself.

  • Marion

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Related to Paul’s #23:

    All I had to do was see page 1 of the first link Paul mentioned – the book written by William Law –

    http://passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/address1.htm

    Notice throughout the text the strange use of capitalizations of particular words. In the religious world of pantheism, where everything is god…they use these excessive and bizarre (outside what is the normal and expected use of capitalization) to denote deity. Even “reason” is capitalized. This is the “god” of the “enlightenment.” Take a look.

    This is occult signature. This is “evil” disguised as “good.” This piece is not referring the the God of the Bible. If you have ever come across samples of occult writing in your research you will recognize this.

    There is nothing left to say.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed…I appreciate your thoughts on Dave Hunt. I concur.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed said:
    “it was laborious due to the lack of sectioning and flowery language of that time.”

    My dead sister, it was laborious because IT IS OCCULTIC AND NEW AGE, not because of the language of that time. A five-year-old reads the Gospels and the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, and THEY ARE NOT LABORIOUS (even in the good old KJB *LOL*)
    Let me just throw a few points from just wading through “AN HUMBLE, EARNEST, AND Affectionate ADDRESS TO THE CLERGY”:
    1. Universalism is all over, and the key underlying thread of LAW (Add-191, 233, 234, 199, 198…)
    Note: I don’t need to add any other thing after Universalism, but let me add a couple more.
    2. Law teaches that Adam, before the Fall, was inhabited by the Trinity, had the Fullness of Divine Life, and thus was like God incarnate, ie Christ (Addr-126, 146…)
    3. Law teaches that ALL MEN (FALLEN MEN) HAVE THE LIVING SEED OF THE WORD (JESUS) AND THE SPIRIT WITHIN THEM JUST WAITING TO BE REVIVED/AWAKENED (Addr-12, Addr-13, Addr-14…)
    4. This Fallen Man has the power to become a Christ, ie God Incarnate (Addr-123, 233)
    5. To be saved means to reach sinless perfection (Addr-221 to 231)
    6. Satan is “SELF” within each Man. He also refers to Lucifer as Satan, but one has to understand that he is talking about the SELF, Fallen Nature of Lucifer (Addr-190…)
    7. The Antichrist is SELF-EXALTATION (Addr-115, 116, 117) or the Natural Man (Addr-218, 219)

    ETC

    Satan always mixes truth with error, and that is what his ministers do, and Law is no exception. But those who are born of God and discerning will, by God’s grace, see through it.
    To know who Law was, you need to know who is mentor and main influence was, that is Boehme.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed wrote:
    “Paul seems focused on black-listing Dave Hunt. Paul obviously seeks the truth, but certainly there are bigger fish to fry.”

    God knows my heart. I have nothing against Hunt as a person. It is his fruit that I call to question, and it is bad fruit.
    I do not question his sincerity neither. He was sincerely deceived. He was deceived and deluded, and went on deceiving.
    One of the tactics of deceivers is to speak from both sides of their mouths, so as to confuse people and better deceive them.
    My first flag was the issue with Tozer. They dismissed me. Tozer is a BIG fish who have passed under the radar of most protestants Christianity believe me.
    Hunt is another big fish. You know, the greatest deceivers are those you will suspect the least. Think about it. The other 11 had NO clue about Judas until the very last minute when he met them in the garden with the soldiers.
    My second flag was Hunt’s book “Judgement Day”. As I was reading it, it became more and more clear to me that there was something wrong with the author, that he was a deceiver, and all the truths (facts) he was presenting in the book were actually a lure, a distraction to take their focus away from true Christianity.
    My third and last flag was the connection with Boehme–>Law. Then everything fell into place, I could connect the dots. And when all is said and done, all roads will lead to Mystery, Babylon the Great. Just follow the dots.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    If you read Addr-191, you will find this in common between Law and Clarence Larkin (maybe Larkin got it from Law):

    “God’s Providence, from the Fall to the Restitution of all Things, is doing the same Thing, as when he said to the dark Chaos of fallen Nature , “Let there be light””

    I fear for all those who add their “vain imaginations” between Gen 1:1-2 and thread into the secret things of God.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I had never read “A woman Rides the Beast” before, but since we are having this conversation about Hunt, I decided to peruse it, and these are a FEW gems (I did a simple search for “Graham”):

    -Certainly men such as Billy Graham and W.A. Criswell have demonstrated through long lives of service to Christ and winning thousands to Him that they would not knowingly compromise the gospel of God’s grace through Jesus Christ. (Page 248 of the eBook you can download freely on the Internet. Note: This is not a joke)

    -Even so staunch an evangelist as Billy Graham, like so many other leading evangelicals, seems to have been persuaded by Rome’s new posture.

    -Other MAJOR EVANGELICAL MINISTRIES that have been working with Catholics as FELLOW CHRISTIANS include the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Charles Colson’s Prison Fellowship, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade for Christ, Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship, Youth With A Mission, Wycliffe Bible Translators, and others.

    -Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity which in some respects SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH that, unless a clear distinction is made, one presents “the positive Gospel of Jesus Christ” in vain. (I would beg Hunt to show me what SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH in Roman Catholicism)

    -A major problem is that while CATHOLICS BELIEVE SO MUCH OF THE GOSPEL, they also believe much that has been added which destroys the truth. (I would ask Hunt: Which Gospel is he taking about?)

    -Here we have an admission that the Catholic Church does not teach “salvation by grace through faith” in such a manner that most Catholics understand it. Luther, CALVIN, and the other Reformers did not come to know the biblical gospel from their many years as devout Catholics. In fact, they claimed that Rome didn’t teach this truth, and they appealed to her to do so. (Here Hunt presents Calvin as a saved born again person who came to know the biblical gospel and believed in “salvation by grace through faith”. He does in many other instances in the book)

    Do not be fooled by the so-called “scholarship” (in the sense of great Bible scholar) of Hunt. He is a master of speaking from both sides of his mouth, the trademark of deceivers.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    There is an important concept in the science of Marketing that says:
    “Whether I am well spoken of or evil spoken of doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is that people speak about me (or that I am spoken of)”
    Satan and his agents know that very well and make the most of it, and we have to be very well aware of that.

    (The quote above is a free translation of the famous french quote : “Qu’on parle de moi en bien ou en mal, peu importe. L’essentiel, c’est qu’on parle de moi!” by late French journalist Léon Zitrone)

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Well, now that Paul has picked out all the nits and sliced and diced Hunt’s works and served up his head on a platter, I hope that those with wisdom will see the agenda being put forth here.

    Oh yes, Dave Hunt is a HORRIBLE, TERRIBLE wolf who has deceived millions of gullible believers and led them down the path to destruction.

    Oh yes, Dave Hunt should be listed right up there in Paul’s Hall of Shame as an apostate. And according to Paul (not the Apostle) such as I who do not immediately detect occultic verbage in Law’s 1700 style format are not born of God? And Marion, the capitalization of the different words is not sinister – it was the style of the day. Really………..

    Paul can’t see the forest for the trees. Paul doesn’t see the importance of teaching about Calvinism and warning against it. Paul also cannot see that Hunt was not in any way being soft on Rome. There are facets of Catholicism that lead the unwary to think they are a Christian faith because they believe in the virgin birth of Christ and His death and resurrection.

    And Dave’s view of Hell – he goes to great lengths to explain in the link from Marion.
    Here is what Dave believes:

    11.We believe that at death the souls of the redeemed pass immediately into Christ’s presence, to remain there until the resurrection of the body at Christ’s return for the Church. We also believe that at death the souls of the lost go to Hell, where they remain until they are brought before Christ at the Great White Throne final judgment to be judged according to their works and cast into the Lake of Fire, there to remain eternally.http://www.thebereancall.org/content/about-berean-call

    I find it amazingly sad what is going on here and how it has detracted from the greater purpose of this thread, that of exposing an enemy of the faith, a real and present danger, Calvinism.

    It has turned into a lynching of Hunt and even Clarence Larkin, calling the former a wolf and the latter a “minister of satan”. Paul relented on this choice of words but then came back later with a new onslaught on Larkin.

    I have had my salvation questioned simply because I did not see the supposedly glaring errors of Law’s writings.

    I fear this is straining at gnats and looking for a demon in every bush and under every rock.
    I deplore mixing trutha and error, but this borders on the ridiculous. I HATE false teaching and those masquerading as sheep to devour the flock. I do not for a moment see Dave Hunt in this light despite his blind spots and human frailties. God hates pride and self-righteous attitudes. God will be his judge when the time comes as He will be mine.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Dave Hunt Addresses the ‘Fire of Hell’ Controversy

    by Hunt, Dave

    My April article has evoked an amazing response. A number of our readers and supporters are suggesting that I do not believe in a real hell with real fire because I say the fire is not physical. Surely “physical” cannot be the only criterion of “real,” or one would likewise deny that God is real, that the Holy Spirit is real, that angels and demons and Satan are real. Such would indeed be real heresy.

    As for why I don’t believe the flames of hell are physical, I have given many sound biblical reasons for that conviction. This is a belief that I have not tried to hide but have declared in many writings and talks.

    It is astonishing to me that anyone would imagine that in order for the flames of hell to be “real” they must be physical. Then the human soul and spirit are not real. Nor are justice and truth and all concepts such as morals and righteousness real, because they are not physical. Was the water “real” that Christ offered to those who would come unto Him and drink (John:7:37)? It certainly was not physical! Was it therefore unreal? It was and is in fact more real than physical water.

    One dear brother, whose newsletter I have long appreciated, quickly sent out an email titled: “DAVE HUNT DENIES THE FIRE OF HELL.” In his article he repeats, “Dave Hunt…is boldly denying the fire of hell.” This is an accusation that greatly grieves me. I most certainly do not “deny the fire of hell.” In fact, I corresponded with this brother years ago on this subject and thought we agreed.

    One might just as well headline another article,

    “Dave Hunt Denies the Reality of the Living Water Christ Gives to Those Who Come to Him by Faith! Hunt Dares To Say that It Isn’t Physical!”

    One could go on to say,

    “Dave Hunt Declares that the ‘Rivers of Living Water’ that Jesus Said Would Flow Out of the Belly of those Who Believe on Him Are Not Physical, and He Even Denies that Jesus Meant Our Physical Bellies!”

    Why do I introduce water into this discussion? I do so because water is so often used by Christ to illustrate the spiritual truths we are considering. Thirst is an important ingredient of hell. Is it a physical thirst for physical water, or something even more painful and specifically related to the spiritual thirst to which Christ so often referred and which He claimed to quench for those who would believe on Him?

    The rich man in hell was “tormented in this flame.” He begged Abraham to send Lazarus to “dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue…” (Luke:16:23-25

    ). Were the flames in hell and the thirst that tormented the rich man real? Certainly. Were they physical? How could that be the case? Only the rich man’s soul and spirit were in hell; his dead body was in the grave. He had no tongue in hell. Could physical flames affect soul and spirit, and could soul and spirit have physical thirst?

    Did the rich man in hell need physical water? It would not have done his soul and spirit any good. The unbearable thirst that tormented him was because at the heart of all of his sin was his rejection of the water of life that Christ offered. He would suffer eternally from the painful guilt of that rejection and the weight of his sins.

    Another brother repeatedly refers to physical flames and physical fire as essential if the fires of hell are “real.” On that basis, and on that basis alone, he declares that I don’t believe in a real hell or real fire or real flames. He gives no other definition of “real” except “physical.” Using that criterion, how could he believe that God the Father, the Holy Spirit, or his own soul and spirit are real?

    I have given many reasons why the flames in the lake of fire, though real, could not be physical: surely “the devil and his angels” do not have physical bodies, yet the lake of fire was prepared for them (Matthew:25:41); physical flames cannot (as Catholics believe will happen in “purgatory”) morally and spiritually affect those who are tortured by them. This would reduce hell to unbearable physical torment that could no better represent the execution of God’s justice upon sinners than could the physical mistreatment of Christ by Roman soldiers pay the penalty for the sins of the world as The Passion movie heretically implies.

    How could physical torment distinguish between the sins of a Hitler and those of a petty thief? How could physical pain, no matter how excruciating, contribute to the tormenting agony of soul and spirit and conscience laid bare before the wrath of a Holy God against sin? Would the soul and spirit, or the flesh, cry out in agony from physical fire?

    May I bring to bear further reason on this subject?

    God says, “Come now, and let us reason together (Isaiah:1:18); and Peter says, “Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you… (1 Peter:3:15).” Paul continually reasoned from the Scriptures: Acts:17:2; 18:4, 19, etc. Rebuking me for reasoning from Scripture, one of the above critics declares, “It’s not up to us to try to figure out how these things work. We can be assured that God knows how to make it work.” In other words, “Never mind that physical fire could only inflict physical pain that cannot touch soul and spirit; we’re not supposed to reason about Scripture. It says ‘fire’ so it’s got to be physical or it wouldn’t be real; so God must make that work no matter how unreasonable it is.”

    Let us continue to reason.

    Was the water real that Jesus offered to the woman at the well (John:4:14)? Of course, or His offer would have been a fraud. Was the water physical? No. Then, say some, it couldn’t have been real. Have they not made a grave mistake?

    Paul says, “Fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is” (1 Corinthians:3:13). Please tell me how physical fire could reveal “what sort” of works we have done? Isn’t that a moral judgment, weighing motives as well as deeds? Does not this fire, which cannot be physical yet is real, give us further insight into the nature of the fires of hell?

    No physical body could survive the lake of fire for a moment. It would instantly be consumed — so God would have to continually, moment by moment, reconstitute the physical bodies so He could continue to torment the damned. As I pointed out in the article, this is what Muslims believe about their hell and Catholics about purgatory. Neither belief is biblical. What conviction of conscience would be effected through tormenting physical bodies in physical flames?

    “But what about the burning bush that was not consumed? If God can keep physical fire from consuming a bush, surely He could keep it from consuming a physical body in the lake of fire.” Of course He could, but what would be the point? Why would God choose to use physical fire to torment the damned even though it didn’t consume them? Shouldn’t they instead be tormented by the flaming fire of an overwhelming sense of the exceeding sinfulness of the sins they have committed (Romans:7:13) and the horror of what it means to rebel against the only true God, Creator of heaven and earth? Wouldn’t this burning of the conscience be far worse than burning in physical flames?

    Those who are “cast into the lake of fire” have just been judged at the “great white throne…according to their works” (Revelation:20:11-12

    ). They must be terrified by the judgment they know they deserve for the sins with which they have been confronted by the One on the throne “from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away….” Every self-justifying excuse has been stripped away, leaving the stark reality of the extreme wickedness of their sin. They will be forever tormented by a conscience that can no longer hide from God or justify itself, and by an eternally burning thirst for the Living Water Christ offered, and which they despised.

    They will for eternity mourn the folly of their irrevocable decision. Imagine the pain of such a fire burning in the soul of one in the lake of fire who has in God’s presence suddenly met with the full realization of one’s eternal state, with the “blood” of Jesus on one’s “hands.” Would not the burning pain and anguish these souls and spirits will suffer be far worse than physical flames could inflict upon physical bodies?

    Finally, physical torment could not affect the conscience or effect any understanding of the horror of sin and the justice of the punishment God is meting out upon sinners. Excruciating physical torment would surely distract the conscience instead of assist in the conviction just burned into it at the great white throne.

    I understand the strength of the tradition that the flames of hell must be physical fire torturing bodies. In my opinion, that idea trivializes God’s just punishment, has led to much misunderstanding, and instead of glorifying God for His uncompromising justice, breeds bewilderment, resentment, and even hatred of the God whom they now view as their tormentor instead of their just judge.

    With all due respect to my critics, I request that they give the above a fair hearing.

    source: http://www.thebereancall.org/node/6691

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Oh, Paul refers to me as his “dead sister”. Not sure how to take that. I was saved and was a sister in Christ but have lost my salvation and am now spiritually dead? If I was looking for a deeper sinister meaning I could draw that conclusion, but I rather think it was a typo. That is an example of giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I think a good dose of that would be good for some of the comments that have been made here.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    The fact of the matter is that he does not deny a literally hell. If the flames are real or supernatural flames, so what? He is still saying that there is a Hell and it’s going to last forever.

    When someone says that there is NO hell or it’s only temporary, that is where I draw the line. Dave Hunt does not say that.

    I however believe they are real flames, but they could be supernatural flames that burn more than just the physical.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I had never read “A woman Rides the Beast” before, but since we are having this conversation about Hunt, I decided to peruse it, and these are a FEW gems (I did a simple search for “Graham”):

    -Certainly men such as Billy Graham and W.A. Criswell have demonstrated through long lives of service to Christ and winning thousands to Him that they would not knowingly compromise the gospel of God’s grace through Jesus Christ. (Page 248 of the eBook you can download freely on the Internet. Note: This is not a joke)

    -Even so staunch an evangelist as Billy Graham, like so many other leading evangelicals, seems to have been persuaded by Rome’s new posture.

    -Other MAJOR EVANGELICAL MINISTRIES that have been working with Catholics as FELLOW CHRISTIANS include the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Charles Colson’s Prison Fellowship, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade for Christ, Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship, Youth With A Mission, Wycliffe Bible Translators, and others.

    -Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity which in some respects SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH that, unless a clear distinction is made, one presents “the positive Gospel of Jesus Christ” in vain. (I would beg Hunt to show me what SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH in Roman Catholicism)

    -A major problem is that while CATHOLICS BELIEVE SO MUCH OF THE GOSPEL, they also believe much that has been added which destroys the truth. (I would ask Hunt: Which Gospel is he taking about?)

    -Here we have an admission that the Catholic Church does not teach “salvation by grace through faith” in such a manner that most Catholics understand it. Luther, CALVIN, and the other Reformers did not come to know the biblical gospel from their many years as devout Catholics. In fact, they claimed that Rome didn’t teach this truth, and they appealed to her to do so. (Here Hunt presents Calvin as a saved born again person who came to know the biblical gospel and believed in “salvation by grace through faith”. He does in many other instances in the book)

    Paul, where did you find this e-book?…. The link I found was like very dodgy and has now put adverts all over google!!!!!! My goodness I am now very upset about this.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    lol dead sister haha

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs,
    I downloaded it from

    Sister Redeemed (this is sincere, and is not a typo),
    In #25 I wrote “Anyone who reads that and does not see the occultism and New Age right away is, I may dare say , not born of God.”
    This was too far fetched from my part and I repent for this statement.

    I did not intend to question the salvation of anyone, and even added the caution “I may dare say”. And I also amended myself in #39 where I wrote : “But those who are born of God and discerning will, by God’s grace, see through it.”

    I am so sorry that this made you so upset (and rightly) about me. Unfortunately you have now started attributing wrong motives to me, which are untrue. I hate Calvinism a million times, but you seem to be saying that I am sympathizing and taking sides with Calvinists by exposing Hunt. This is very unfortunate.

    Please don’t be upset at me. The truth hurts at times. You have misread so much of my posts. I did not accuse Hunt of not believing in a literal Hell. I said “SOMEONE has ALLEGED that Hunt does not believe in a literal Hell” and I added that I don’t know if it is factual. Now the point is, Hunt’s view of Hell is not completely scriptural.

    Marion saw right away what I saw. Starting with the title of Law’s book: He writes to… THE CLERGY, which is a Babylonian concept totally foreign to The Holy Scriptures.
    Is the Holy Trinity now called “Life, Light, and Love” (Addr-9)

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    @Redeemed,
    Chapter one of Hunt-Law’s book The Power of The Spirit that you have is titled “The Indwelling Spirit of God essential to salvation”. This is a clever rephrasing of the same title in Murray’s edition which reads “The ONE Thing ESSENTIAL to Salvation: The Power of the Spirit in us”. Well, when I read that I wrote in the margin: “”The ONE Thing ESSENTIAL to Our Salvation is The Death, Burial and Resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus-Christ”
    All these three guys (Law, Murray, Hunt) are certainly not talking about the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity. It is another Spirit, and Occultic spirit. I am adamant about this.

    Let everyone examine the fruit by himself without any prejudice nor preconception.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Oups,
    it is only now that I realize I wrote “My dead sister”.
    That is certainly a typo. I meant “my DEAR sister” Thank you for your grace Redeemed.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed wrote:
    “Paul doesn’t see the importance of teaching about Calvinism and warning against it.”

    Of course I see the importance of it. My point is, too much is like not enough, and we can easily be deceived by deceivers who specialize on such things bring our guards down. Look at all the “discernment” and “apologetics” ecosystems out there.
    And more importantly, when someone spends too much time thinking of or speaking about bad things, he might end up believing in them, because they fill his mind. Read my post #43.

    In the contrary, this is what Paul the Apostle focused MOSTLY on:

    Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that YE MIGHT BE FILLED WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS WILL IN ALL WISDOM AND SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING;
    Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

    When you are filled with the knowledge of His Will, you don’t need a 600-pages book (What Love is this?) and all the other stuff to know what Calvinism is.

    On an aside note, I don’t know what to say about your following statement about Law. Even unbelievers know Law to be an occultist and New Age, and is commonly associated with Boehme and Jane Lead who both influenced him:
    “It seems that the worst Law could be accused of here is extreme holiness and that is debatable. If those in the Church today would follow his exhortations it certainly would be a breath of fresh air!
    Law passed from the earthly scene in 1701. I think we can assume that he is with the Lord and all things are clear to him now.”

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Dave Hunt Addresses the ‘Fire of Hell’ Controversy
    by Hunt, Dave
    My April article has evoked an amazing response. A number of our readers and supporters are suggesting that I do not believe in a real hell with real fire because I say the fire is not physical. Surely “physical” cannot be the only criterion of “real,” or one would likewise deny that God is real, that the Holy Spirit is real, that angels and demons and Satan are real. Such would indeed be real heresy.
    As for why I don’t believe the flames of hell are physical, I have given many sound biblical reasons for that conviction. This is a belief that I have not tried to hide but have declared in many writings and talks.
    It is astonishing to me that anyone would imagine that in order for the flames of hell to be “real” they must be physical. Then the human soul and spirit are not real. Nor are justice and truth and all concepts such as morals and righteousness real, because they are not physical. Was the water “real” that Christ offered to those who would come unto Him and drink (John:7:37)? It certainly was not physical! Was it therefore unreal? It was and is in fact more real than physical water.
    One dear brother, whose newsletter I have long appreciated, quickly sent out an email titled: “DAVE HUNT DENIES THE FIRE OF HELL.” In his article he repeats, “Dave Hunt…is boldly denying the fire of hell.” This is an accusation that greatly grieves me. I most certainly do not “deny the fire of hell.” In fact, I corresponded with this brother years ago on this subject and thought we agreed.
    One might just as well headline another article,
    “Dave Hunt Denies the Reality of the Living Water Christ Gives to Those Who Come to Him by Faith! Hunt Dares To Say that It Isn’t Physical!”
    One could go on to say,
    “Dave Hunt Declares that the ‘Rivers of Living Water’ that Jesus Said Would Flow Out of the Belly of those Who Believe on Him Are Not Physical, and He Even Denies that Jesus Meant Our Physical Bellies!”
    Why do I introduce water into this discussion? I do so because water is so often used by Christ to illustrate the spiritual truths we are considering. Thirst is an important ingredient of hell. Is it a physical thirst for physical water, or something even more painful and specifically related to the spiritual thirst to which Christ so often referred and which He claimed to quench for those who would believe on Him?
    The rich man in hell was “tormented in this flame.” He begged Abraham to send Lazarus to “dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue…” (Luke:16:23-25
    ). Were the flames in hell and the thirst that tormented the rich man real? Certainly. Were they physical? How could that be the case? Only the rich man’s soul and spirit were in hell; his dead body was in the grave. He had no tongue in hell. Could physical flames affect soul and spirit, and could soul and spirit have physical thirst?
    Did the rich man in hell need physical water? It would not have done his soul and spirit any good. The unbearable thirst that tormented him was because at the heart of all of his sin was his rejection of the water of life that Christ offered. He would suffer eternally from the painful guilt of that rejection and the weight of his sins.
    Another brother repeatedly refers to physical flames and physical fire as essential if the fires of hell are “real.” On that basis, and on that basis alone, he declares that I don’t believe in a real hell or real fire or real flames. He gives no other definition of “real” except “physical.” Using that criterion, how could he believe that God the Father, the Holy Spirit, or his own soul and spirit are real?
    I have given many reasons why the flames in the lake of fire, though real, could not be physical: surely “the devil and his angels” do not have physical bodies, yet the lake of fire was prepared for them (Matthew:25:41); physical flames cannot (as Catholics believe will happen in “purgatory”) morally and spiritually affect those who are tortured by them. This would reduce hell to unbearable physical torment that could no better represent the execution of God’s justice upon sinners than could the physical mistreatment of Christ by Roman soldiers pay the penalty for the sins of the world as The Passion movie heretically implies.
    How could physical torment distinguish between the sins of a Hitler and those of a petty thief? How could physical pain, no matter how excruciating, contribute to the tormenting agony of soul and spirit and conscience laid bare before the wrath of a Holy God against sin? Would the soul and spirit, or the flesh, cry out in agony from physical fire?
    May I bring to bear further reason on this subject?
    God says, “Come now, and let us reason together (Isaiah:1:18); and Peter says, “Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you… (1 Peter:3:15).” Paul continually reasoned from the Scriptures: Acts:17:2; 18:4, 19, etc. Rebuking me for reasoning from Scripture, one of the above critics declares, “It’s not up to us to try to figure out how these things work. We can be assured that God knows how to make it work.” In other words, “Never mind that physical fire could only inflict physical pain that cannot touch soul and spirit; we’re not supposed to reason about Scripture. It says ‘fire’ so it’s got to be physical or it wouldn’t be real; so God must make that work no matter how unreasonable it is.”
    Let us continue to reason.
    Was the water real that Jesus offered to the woman at the well (John:4:14)? Of course, or His offer would have been a fraud. Was the water physical? No. Then, say some, it couldn’t have been real. Have they not made a grave mistake?
    Paul says, “Fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is” (1 Corinthians:3:13). Please tell me how physical fire could reveal “what sort” of works we have done? Isn’t that a moral judgment, weighing motives as well as deeds? Does not this fire, which cannot be physical yet is real, give us further insight into the nature of the fires of hell?
    No physical body could survive the lake of fire for a moment. It would instantly be consumed — so God would have to continually, moment by moment, reconstitute the physical bodies so He could continue to torment the damned. As I pointed out in the article, this is what Muslims believe about their hell and Catholics about purgatory. Neither belief is biblical. What conviction of conscience would be effected through tormenting physical bodies in physical flames?
    “But what about the burning bush that was not consumed? If God can keep physical fire from consuming a bush, surely He could keep it from consuming a physical body in the lake of fire.” Of course He could, but what would be the point? Why would God choose to use physical fire to torment the damned even though it didn’t consume them? Shouldn’t they instead be tormented by the flaming fire of an overwhelming sense of the exceeding sinfulness of the sins they have committed (Romans:7:13) and the horror of what it means to rebel against the only true God, Creator of heaven and earth? Wouldn’t this burning of the conscience be far worse than burning in physical flames?
    Those who are “cast into the lake of fire” have just been judged at the “great white throne…according to their works” (Revelation:20:11-12
    ). They must be terrified by the judgment they know they deserve for the sins with which they have been confronted by the One on the throne “from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away….” Every self-justifying excuse has been stripped away, leaving the stark reality of the extreme wickedness of their sin. They will be forever tormented by a conscience that can no longer hide from God or justify itself, and by an eternally burning thirst for the Living Water Christ offered, and which they despised.
    They will for eternity mourn the folly of their irrevocable decision. Imagine the pain of such a fire burning in the soul of one in the lake of fire who has in God’s presence suddenly met with the full realization of one’s eternal state, with the “blood” of Jesus on one’s “hands.” Would not the burning pain and anguish these souls and spirits will suffer be far worse than physical flames could inflict upon physical bodies?
    Finally, physical torment could not affect the conscience or effect any understanding of the horror of sin and the justice of the punishment God is meting out upon sinners. Excruciating physical torment would surely distract the conscience instead of assist in the conviction just burned into it at the great white throne.
    I understand the strength of the tradition that the flames of hell must be physical fire torturing bodies. In my opinion, that idea trivializes God’s just punishment, has led to much misunderstanding, and instead of glorifying God for His uncompromising justice, breeds bewilderment, resentment, and even hatred of the God whom they now view as their tormentor instead of their just judge.
    With all due respect to my critics, I request that they give the above a fair hearing.
    source: http://www.thebereancall.org/node/6691

    This is the same link given by Marion as the smoking gun to say that Dave Hunt does not believe in a literal Hell. I also gave the quote from the TBC website statement of faith that CLEARLY states what Bro. Hunt believes. This is nothing but hair-splitting exercise. If this is an example of Marion’s discernment abilities, can her assessment of the link by Law that she detected occultic overtones be credible?

    It is so sad to see the nasty turn this thread has taken. It is certainly not edifying or helpful. Can we get back to the issue at hand and be GRATEFUL to Dave Hunt for having the courage to take a stand against Calvinism? I certainly hope so!!!

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed,

    To understand more the point I am making here about Hunt, see the list of “EXCEPTIONAL endorsements”(emphasis in the original) on the back cover of “What Love is this?”

      -the first and foremost is Tim LaHaye
      -the second is Chuck Smith
      -the fifth is Chuck Missler

    All these 3 are BIG wolves (sorry, EXCEPTIONAL wolves). I don’t know much about the other endorsers, but I won’t be surprised if most are wolves as well, yet Hunt presents them to his readers as REFERENCES.
    http://www.amazon.ca/What-Love-This-Calvinisms-Misrepresentation/dp/1928660126#reader_1928660126

  • Marion

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed…I think Paul made a type in saying “my dead sister”…from the context, it is clear he meant to write “my dear sister.”

    I am having a hard time understanding your comment here:

    >>>”Well, now that Paul has picked out all the nits and sliced and diced Hunt’s works and served up his head on a platter, I hope that those with wisdom will see the agenda being put forth here>”< <<

    Quite honestly, I'm surprised, because this is not your response to any others whose problematic teachings/writings have been scrutinized and found lacking and in error. Could it be our fondness for the person of Dave Hunt? I know it was for me...but I needed to take an objective, Scriptural look at Dave, just like any other teacher I've looked into. The results of my search have broken my heart.

    Let's look at this passage from the above-mentioned book by William Law, found here: http://passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/address1.htm

    "[Addr-9] But now, if all that is Divine, great, glorious, and happy, in the Spirits, Tempers, Operations, and Enjoyments of the Creature, is only so much of the Greatness, Glory, Majesty, and Blessedness of God, dwelling in it, and giving forth various Births of his own triune Life, Light, and Love, in and through the manifold Forms and capacities of the Creature to receive them, then we may infallibly see the true Ground and Nature of all true Religion, and when and how we may be said to fulfill all our Religious Duty to God. For the Creature's true Religion, is its rendering to God all that is God's, it is its true continual Acknowledging all that which it is, and has, and enjoys, in and from God. This is the one true Religion of all intelligent Creatures, whether in Heaven, or on Earth; for as they all have but one and the same Relation to God, so though ever so different in their several Births, States or Offices, they all have but one and the same true Religion, or right Behavior towards God. Now the one Relation, which is the Ground of all true Religion, and is one and the same between God and all intelligent Creatures, is this, it is a total unalterable Dependence upon God, an immediate continual receiving of every Kind, and Degree of Goodness, Blessing and Happiness, that ever was, or can be found in them, from God alone. The highest Angel has nothing of its own that it can offer unto God, no more Light, Love, Purity, Perfection, and glorious Hallelujahs, that spring from itself, or its own Powers, than the poorest Creature upon Earth. Could the Angel see a Spark of Wisdom, Goodness, or Excellence, as coming from, or belonging to itself, its Place in Heaven would be lost, as sure as Lucifer lost his. But they are ever-abiding Flames of Pure Love, always ascending up to and uniting with God, for this Reason, because the Wisdom, the Power, the Glory, the Majesty, the Love, and Goodness of God alone, is all that they see, and feel, and know, either within or without themselves. —Songs of Praise to their heavenly Father are their ravishing Delight, because they see, and know, and feel, that it is the Breath and Spirit of their Heavenly Father that sings and rejoices in them. Their Adoration in Spirit and in Truth never ceases, because they never cease to acknowledge the ALL of God; —the ALL of God in the whole Creation. This is the one Religion of Heaven, and nothing else is the Truth of Religion on Earth."

    1. Notice the capitalization of the "gods"

    2. Starting in sentence #2..."and giving forth various Births of his own triune Life, Light, and Love"...DOES God give forth VARIOUS BIRTHS?...of his own triune Life, Light, and Love"??...IS this Biblical?

    3. Does he do this, "in and through the manifold Forms and capacities of the Creature to receive them,"???

    4. "then we may INFALLIBLY SEE"...can we?...can corruptible man be INFALLIBLE?...or is this an attribute of God alone?

    5. "This is the one true Religion of all intelligent Creatures, whether in Heaven, or on Earth; for as they all(?) have but one and the same Relation to God(?), so though ever so different in their several Births, States or Offices, they all(?) have but one and the same true Religion(?), or right Behavior towards God."...Where in the Bible do we find these "truths"...notice the author uses NO Scripture...merely alluding to Biblical ideas which are then twisted into something different.

    6. "Now the one Relation, which is the Ground of all true Religion, and is one and the same(?) between God and all(?) intelligent Creatures, is this, it is a total unalterable Dependence upon God, an immediate continual receiving(?) of every Kind, and Degree of Goodness, Blessing and Happiness, that ever was, or can be found in them, from God alone." Is this statement true?

    7. In referring to the angels, Law writes: "Could the Angel see a Spark of Wisdom, Goodness, or Excellence,"..."sparks" of Divine...this is gnosticism.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

    8.Again speaking of angels: "But they are ever-abiding Flames of Pure Love, (where in the Words of God are we provided this description of angels?) always ascending up to and uniting with God, (UNITING with God?) for this Reason, because the Wisdom, the Power, the Glory, the Majesty, the Love, and Goodness of God alone, is all that they see, and feel, and know, either within or without themselves."...SO the angels have no "seeing" or "knowledge" of the evil that exists in our world or continues in the spiritual realm? There is a distinct "alchemy" which happens in gnosticism and luciferianism which calls evil good, since God made all things, and made all things good, ULTIMATELY their thinking is that there is NOTHING but GOOD that exists. This is wicked!

    8b...Furthermore "But they are ever-abiding Flames of Pure Love, always ascending up to and uniting with God, for this Reason, because the Wisdom, the Power, the Glory, the Majesty, the Love, and Goodness of God alone, is all that they see, and feel, and know, either within or without themselves." This is speaking of the ecstatic and mystical union and oneness with "god" taught by the occult, new age mystics, the "desert fathers"...pure and simple mysticism.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism

    9. "Their Adoration in Spirit and in Truth never ceases, because they never cease to acknowledge the ALL of God; —the ALL of God in the whole Creation." (caps in the original writing)..."the ALL of God; - the ALL of God IN (caps mine) the whole Creation"...this is panentheism...GOD IN EVERYTHING. ALL is God and God is ALL.

    19. " This is the one Religion of Heaven, and nothing else is the Truth of Religion on Earth." This is the "truth" they put forth to replace the true "faith which was once delivered unto the saints."...for which we are to earnestly contend (Jude 3).

    Another example from that work:

    >>>”[Addr-8] God could not make the Creature to be great and glorious in itself; this is as impossible, as for God to create Beings into a State of Independence on himself. “The Heavens,” saith David, “declare the Glory of God”; and no Creature, any more than the Heavens, can declare any other Glory but that of God. And as well might it be said, that the Firmament shows forth its own Handy Work, as that a holy Divine or heavenly Creature shows forth its own natural Power.”

    1. “the Firmament shows forth ITS OWN(?) Handy Work”???…as that a holy Divine of heavenly CREATURE(?) shows forth its own natural Power.” (capitalized words mine)
    1b. The God of the Bible is a holy, divine and heavenly CREATOR with power…NOT…”as that a holy Divine or heavenly Creature shows forth its own natural Power.”

    In closing, I would like to share a snippet from an article I came across related to the “leavening” of Christianity with the pagan/gnostic teachings which are found in the secret societies.

    “…Spartacus writing triumphantly: You cannot imagine what consideration and sensation our Priest’s degree is arousing. The most wonderful thing is that great Protestant and reformed theologians who belong to [Illuminism] still believe that the religious teaching imparted in it contains the true and genuine spirit of the Christian religion. Oh! men, of what cannot you be persuaded? I never thought that I should become the founder of a new religion.”
    “Secret Societies and Subversive Movements” by Nesta H. Webster; Ch. 9. The Bavarian Illuminati, page 219

    Clearly what we have here in the works of William Law, which are re-edited and put out there by Dave Hunt is a “another gospel” which the Bible calls “accursed”, by false teachers…who the Bible says…are also “accursed.”

    Dave Hunt has put out much work that I personally have found helpful, such as “Seduction of Christianity.” But as we have seen before, many what we would consider a “good apologist” or “watchman” have merely brought in the heresies they uncover and “warn” about through the back door.

    Recognizing this reality has been a very hard thing.

    I’m sorry, Redeemed. It is a loss of whom we thought was another good man.
    Blessings

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    We know that the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden was Christ.

    Now, Genesis 3:22 tells us that:
    And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    This is actually the FIRST verse in the Bible about the eternal security of the believer:
    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Genesis 3:22 tells us that Adam and Eve did not eat it, for if they had eaten it, they would have lived for ever (i.e. they would have gotten salvation by their own “works” so to speak)

    So Adam and Eve, though created in the image and likeness of God, where NOT indwelt by God (not the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit). They were created perfect, but not Divine. They perfection was the perfection of INNOCENCE in the sense that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil.

    One fundamental deception of occultist and New Age William Law was to teach the contrary, that Adam and Eve were Divine, indwelt by the Trinity. The only human being to be both perfect and indwelt by God is, and will ever be, Jesus-Christ.

    Sadly, Murray, Hunt and scores of others swallowed, believed and most dangerously disseminated this occultic deception, that we can become gods (since Adam was God).

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul (Continue in His Word) wrote:

    @Redeemed,
    Chapter one of Hunt-Law’s book The Power of The Spirit that you have is titled “The Indwelling Spirit of God essential to salvation”. This is a clever rephrasing of the same title in Murray’s edition which reads “The ONE Thing ESSENTIAL to Salvation: The Power of the Spirit in us”. Well, when I read that I wrote in the margin: “”The ONE Thing ESSENTIAL to Our Salvation is The Death, Burial and Resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus-Christ”
    All these three guys (Law, Murray, Hunt) are certainly not talking about the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity. It is another Spirit, and Occultic spirit. I am adamant about this.
    Let everyone examine the fruit by himself without any prejudice nor preconception.

    Paul, sorry to see that you refuse to dismount from this dead horse.

    Here is what Dave Hunt believes about salvation and the many years I have been familiar with him and his ministry he has always held to the uncompromised Gospel of the Bible. Please will you stop this unwarranted and unjustifiable attack?

    5.We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ lived a sinless and perfect life that fully pleased His Father; that He died for our sins on the cross, bearing the judgment demanded by God’s Holy Justice against sin, thus making it possible for God to remain Just and at the same time to justify those who believe in Jesus.

    6.We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead, never to die again, and is ascended to the right hand of the Father, where He intercedes as High Priest and Advocate on behalf of all who believe in Him.

    7.We believe that those who, by faith alone and through no merit of their own, receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior are miraculously born again of the Holy Spirit and become, as children of God, partakers of His divine nature and of eternal life.

    Yet another FALSE accusation against Dave Hunt being of another spirit, an occult spirit. Do you realize what you are saying? You are saying Dave Hunt is not a believer and the purveyor of evil!! It is like you have an obsession with this. You have a problem my friend.

    I have had my say on this matter and will not comment any further in regard to your false and spurious attacks on Dave Hunt. I do NOT idolize him or revere him and if I thought he was in any way leading the sheep astray I would be the first to say so. I am no respecter of persons.
    But I AM very concerned about those who falsely accuse the brethren.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul: Your comment in brackets, following Hunt’s point…”-Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity which in some respects SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH that, unless a clear distinction is made, one presents “the positive Gospel of Jesus Christ” in vain. (I would beg Hunt to show me what SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH in Roman Catholicism)”

    That statement is quite accurate. Dave Hunt was raised a Catholic. I believe he is referring to their Christology…doctrine of Christ…which when taken by itself does resemble the Truth. It’s when it gets buried under Mariology, Tradition and Idolatry that it no longer resembles Truth.

    I have read a couple of Dave Hunt’s books and I have read his monthly newsletter for years. I find taking a few isolated views and branding him a heretic, is a little outrageous. And especially, don’t put him on par with Judas. When did he betray Christ? You are making things up.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Personally, I fail to see that why, when someone like Hunt finds some special connection or inspiration with the writings of someone like William Law or Tozer, he becomes a target for ridicule by the Evangelical world. Myself, I find Tozer reflective and inspirational…here’s a link. Show me where he says something Anti-Christian…
    http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/1082290.A_W_Tozer

    As for William Law, he swam against the current in his day. If you find inspiration in his writings, what is wrong with that? Surely, the Catholic writers of today are very aware of Hunt’s affinities and they are trying to discredit him in any way possible, as are his other enemies. But why should we, as Evangelicals, when he has defended Christianity and the cross better than we have?

    Here’s what this article has to say about Law’s work…“Some Christians have considered Law’s work inadequate, as not sufficiently concerned with Justification by Faith, to which objection Law would doubtless have replied: “But I never offered it as a complete presentation of the Gospel, only as a reminder of the words, ‘Go and sin no more,’ which are surely a part of the Gospel.”
    http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/131.html

    The whole point of this discussion has become to discredit Dave Hunt by some of his reading associations. What about discussing the article above? What about all the good books/articles Dave has written in defence of Dispensationalism and pure, undefiled Christology? How about all the he has written about the Seduction of Christianity by cults and the occult? Why are some so intent on discrediting him by focusing on insignificant issues in the face of the apparent orthodoxy of his writings? I just don’t get it. Cut the man some slack…

    We want grace for ourselves, but we don’t extend it to others easily do we? That’s a spirit and form of hypocritical self righteousness, when we are the only ones who have everything right. Dave got a lot of things right. Let’s give credit where credit is due. Dave’s fruit speaks well of him. When we have to resort to taking out our magnifying glasses to inspect for some kind of prejudicial allegation, this is Catholicism’s finest hour…we are supporting the wrong side of the defence of the cross.

  • Eli

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    So if someone is a non-cessationist then they are a heretic according to Paul? Is that right?

  • Maranatha Mark

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Oh my! Talk about chasing rabbits/going off topic – Dave Hunt! Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and while everyone is likely to contain some truth in their comments, NO ONE will be one hundred percent in what they claim to be truth concerning the Bible. Any articles read, or discussions heard should be taken with a grain of salt and refer back to the Bible when concerning theological matters! If it doesn’t pass the “Full Consel of the Bible” toss it out, too many “Christians” are acedemically lazy when it comes to what they hear or read concerning the Word, which is why things like Calvinism and other erronous teachings/doctrines are flourishing these days. The Litmus test for all things theological should be how they hold up to the full consel of the Bible, if you find contridiction, you toss it out. As my Bible teacher likes to say, “you have to learn to eat the meat and spit out the bones!” And just like the Bible, folks can have what they have said or written, be taken out of context to say almost any thing, one of Satan’s favorite methods, I believe.

    Back to the original theme of the article above: Is it really any surprise, with Calvinism being only one step removed from Catholic doctorine, that much of what Calvinism teaches, is essentially Augstinianism. The article is interesting, but really sheds no earth-shattering revelations.

    As for what translation to use, I prefer the Complete Jewish Bible translation. King James Version altered the original text in that the Hebrew names for the Father YHVH was religated to the generic, “God” or “Lord”. Just my personal preference… I don’t necessarily believe your salvation is hinged upon your Bible translation, but with that said, NIV, RNIV, Common Language Version, ESV are all ‘Politically Corrected” version, which means YHVH’s Word has been altered to push a policially motivated line of thinking!

    Blessings & Shalom!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Let’s look at what Dave Hunt really said…

    Paul you quote…”Certainly men such as Billy Graham and W.A. Criswell have demonstrated through long lives of service to Christ and winning thousands to Him that they would not knowingly compromise the gospel of God’s grace through Jesus Christ.”

    The book says…” Certainly men such as Billy Graham and W.A. Criswell have demonstrated through long lives of service to Christ and
    winning thousands to Him that they would not knowingly compromise the gospel of God’s grace through Jesus Christ. This makes it difficult to understand how they and other evangelical
    leaders profess a commonality of faith with Roman Catholicism which would have been unthinkable to past generations of Protestants.

    That kinda changes the message… doesnt it…

    ———-

    Paul you quote…”Other MAJOR EVANGELICAL MINISTRIES that have been working with Catholics as FELLOW CHRISTIANS include the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Charles Colson’s Prison Fellowship, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade for Christ, Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship, Youth With A Mission, Wycliffe Bible Translators, and others.”

    The book says….”Eugene Daniels, World Vision International’s senior adviser for church relations, recently said, “We discovered that we could work with the Catholic Church in terms of the spiritual needs of the people in much the same way that we have traditionally worked with the Protestant churches.” Other major evangelical ministries that have been working with
    Catholics as fellow Christians include the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Charles Colson’s Prison Fellowship, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade for Christ,
    Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship, Youth With A Mission, Wycliffe Bible Translators, and others. Obviously this recent development, peculiar to our generation, is extremely significant and is gaining momentum as Rome increases its campaign to present itself as “evangelical.”

    You mis-understand what Dave is saying here. “Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Charles Colson’s Prison Fellowship, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade for Christ,
    Full Gospel Businessmen’s Fellowship, Youth With A Mission” are Major evangelical ministries (Dave is not saying they are Christian) and these people work with Catholics and claim they are Christian. Dave Hunt is not claiming at all the Catholics are Christian.

    ———–

    You said…”-Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity which in some respects SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH that, unless a clear distinction is made, one presents “the positive Gospel of Jesus Christ” in vain. (I would beg Hunt to show me what SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH in Roman Catholicism)”

    and…”A major problem is that while CATHOLICS BELIEVE SO MUCH OF THE GOSPEL, they also believe much that has been added which destroys the truth. (I would ask Hunt: Which Gospel is he taking about?”

    The book said… “Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity which in some respects so closely resembles the truth that, unless a clear distinction is made, one presents “the positive Gospel of Jesus Christ” in vain. A major problem is that while Catholics believe so much of the gospel, they also believe much that has been added which destroys the truth.

    Ah but Paul, do you not realize that Billy Graham taught a version of Catholicism that no one notices was Catholicism and still no one notices is Catholicism… You have the Vatican and then Vatican II. A distinction needs to be made between Roman Catholicism and Catholicism, both WRONG, but Catholicism more closely resembles the gospel. Catholic priests preach on TBN and sometimes you have to rub your eyes and ears and wonder if you are listening to a Catholic talk, because they sound so ‘sound’ – but they are not. The rubbish that is taught in the church today is actually Catholicism – it is the Vatican net to catch everyone in and soon, very soon, pull everyone who ‘believes’ back the Rome.

    ———–

    You said….”-Here we have an admission that the Catholic Church does not teach “salvation by grace through faith” in such a manner that most Catholics understand it. Luther, CALVIN, and the other Reformers did not come to know the biblical gospel from their many years as devout Catholics. In fact, they claimed that Rome didn’t teach this truth, and they appealed to her to do so. (Here Hunt presents Calvin as a saved born again person who came to know the biblical gospel and believed in “salvation by grace through faith”. He does in many other instances in the book)

    I have no answer for this one… dumbfounded actually.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul/Maryln

    I can clearly see the occult referencing in Laws book, but I can’t see it in Hunt’s book because no one has quoted from it?

    Can someone give me a link to where I can get Dave Hunt’s e-book, “The Power of The Spirit” – I am not going to make any comments on it until I’ve read it.

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn wrote:

    Personally, I fail to see that why, when someone like Hunt finds some special connection or inspiration with the writings of someone like William Law or Tozer, he becomes a target for ridicule by the Evangelical world. Myself, I find Tozer reflective and inspirational…here’s a link. Show me where he says something Anti-Christian…
    http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/1082290.A_W_Tozer
    As for William Law, he swam against the current in his day. If you find inspiration in his writings, what is wrong with that? Surely, the Catholic writers of today are very aware of Hunt’s affinities and they are trying to discredit him in any way possible, as are his other enemies. But why should we, as Evangelicals, when he has defended Christianity and the cross better than we have?
    Here’s what this article has to say about Law’s work…“Some Christians have considered Law’s work inadequate, as not sufficiently concerned with Justification by Faith, to which objection Law would doubtless have replied: “But I never offered it as a complete presentation of the Gospel, only as a reminder of the words, ‘Go and sin no more,’ which are surely a part of the Gospel.”
    http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/131.html
    The whole point of this discussion has become to discredit Dave Hunt by some of his reading associations. What about discussing the article above? What about all the good books/articles Dave has written in defence of Dispensationalism and pure, undefiled Christology? How about all the he has written about the Seduction of Christianity by cults and the occult? Why are some so intent on discrediting him by focusing on insignificant issues in the face of the apparent orthodoxy of his writings? I just don’t get it. Cut the man some slack…
    We want grace for ourselves, but we don’t extend it to others easily do we? That’s a spirit and form of hypocritical self righteousness, when we are the only ones who have everything right. Dave got a lot of things right. Let’s give credit where credit is due. Dave’s fruit speaks well of him. When we have to resort to taking out our magnifying glasses to inspect for some kind of prejudicial allegation, this is Catholicism’s finest hour…we are supporting the wrong side of the defence of the cross.

    Carolyn, THANK YOU for chiming in and speaking truth into this situation. You are absolutely RIGHT that there is an AGENDA to DISCREDIT Dave Hunt’s whole body of work by NIT PICKING.

    And not only that, there is an attempt to HIJACK the intent of the thread to connect Calvinism to Rome and turn it into a VENDETTA against the author, making false accusations, twisting Hunt’s words and misquoting him and calling him a WOLF. Absolutely revolting! I hope others see that this for what it is.

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn wrote:

    Paul: Your comment in brackets, following Hunt’s point…”-Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity which in some respects SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH that, unless a clear distinction is made, one presents “the positive Gospel of Jesus Christ” in vain. (I would beg Hunt to show me what SO CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH in Roman Catholicism)”
    That statement is quite accurate. Dave Hunt was raised a Catholic. I believe he is referring to their Christology…doctrine of Christ…which when taken by itself does resemble the Truth. It’s when it gets buried under Mariology, Tradition and Idolatry that it no longer resembles Truth.
    I have read a couple of Dave Hunt’s books and I have read his monthly newsletter for years. I find taking a few isolated views and branding him a heretic, is a little outrageous. And especially, don’t put him on par with Judas. When did he betray Christ? You are making things up.

    A RESOUNDING AMEN & AMEN!! WELL SAID!!

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul took me to task for my comments on Law as he said:

    On an aside note, I don’t know what to say about your following statement about Law. Even unbelievers know Law to be an occultist and New Age, and is commonly associated with Boehme and Jane Lead who both influenced him:

    Law became involved with Boehme later in his life. Again, you say Law was an occultist. That is a pretty serious charge, but Paul you seem to get your exercise by jumping to conclusions and carelessly slapping labels on people.

    Just EXACTLY how was Law into the occult? Please, some SPECIFICS and be sure they are FACTUAL!!!

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion wrote:

    Redeemed…I think Paul made a type in saying “my dead sister”…from the context, it is clear he meant to write “my dear sister.”
    I am having a hard time understanding your comment here:
    >>>”Well, now that Paul has picked out all the nits and sliced and diced Hunt’s works and served up his head on a platter, I hope that those with wisdom will see the agenda being put forth here>”< <>>”[Addr-8] God could not make the Creature to be great and glorious in itself; this is as impossible, as for God to create Beings into a State of Independence on himself. “The Heavens,” saith David, “declare the Glory of God”; and no Creature, any more than the Heavens, can declare any other Glory but that of God. And as well might it be said, that the Firmament shows forth its own Handy Work, as that a holy Divine or heavenly Creature shows forth its own natural Power.”
    1. “the Firmament shows forth ITS OWN(?) Handy Work”???…as that a holy Divine of heavenly CREATURE(?) shows forth its own natural Power.” (capitalized words mine)
    1b. The God of the Bible is a holy, divine and heavenly CREATOR with power…NOT…”as that a holy Divine or heavenly Creature shows forth its own natural Power.”
    In closing, I would like to share a snippet from an article I came across related to the “leavening” of Christianity with the pagan/gnostic teachings which are found in the secret societies.
    “…Spartacus writing triumphantly: You cannot imagine what consideration and sensation our Priest’s degree is arousing. The most wonderful thing is that great Protestant and reformed theologians who belong to [Illuminism] still believe that the religious teaching imparted in it contains the true and genuine spirit of the Christian religion. Oh! men, of what cannot you be persuaded? I never thought that I should become the founder of a new religion.”
    “Secret Societies and Subversive Movements” by Nesta H. Webster; Ch. 9. The Bavarian Illuminati, page 219
    Clearly what we have here in the works of William Law, which are re-edited and put out there by Dave Hunt is a “another gospel” which the Bible calls “accursed”, by false teachers…who the Bible says…are also “accursed.”
    Dave Hunt has put out much work that I personally have found helpful, such as “Seduction of Christianity.” But as we have seen before, many what we would consider a “good apologist” or “watchman” have merely brought in the heresies they uncover and “warn” about through the back door.
    Recognizing this reality has been a very hard thing.
    I’m sorry, Redeemed. It is a loss of whom we thought was another good man.
    Blessings

    Marion, here we have an attack on a man with a huge body of good work. And just what damage has he done with this little book that has been sitting in my library for many years? It did not damage me or lead me into mystical thinking.

    Are you saying that all of Dave Hunt’s works will be burned up as hay, wood and stubble at the Bema Seat based on this one area of blind spot?

    Are you willing to discredit his reputation and his body of work and warn against it based on his one book on Law?

    What is the point? Dave is on his way out of this world – where were all the discerners when he was able to comment and receive the admonition of others? Dave is/was a very gracious man, not conceited or self-serving.

    I respect no persons, but I am willing to extend grace. Yes, I abhor mixture of truth and error and truth serving as a cloak for error. But I don’t see this here. I see a blind spot and this error miniscule in comparison to his other body of work and service to the Body of Christ.

    Expose the error, but do so charitably and with grace, not making false accusations and insinuations as Paul has done. Hunt would be the first to say he could have made a mistake.

    Do you think Debs should take down this article?
    And if she does not do so, is she a party to precipating mysticism?

    I find this whole episode very sad and I am done with it. I am not upset with any person, only the straining at gnats that has gone on here. I harbor no resentment, only a sadness of heart. Grace and peace.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    @Debs
    Hunt’s version is copyrighted.
    You can read his intro and beginning of chapter one on amazon.
    Hunt says in his intro : “The main source of material for this present volume has been taken from Andrew Murray’s edition of Law’s An Affectionate Address to the Clergy”
    He goes on to say: “It is my conviction that Andrew Murray has not been been unduly high of his praise of this volume by Law. And although, like Murray, I cannot agree with all of Law’s teachings, I TOO BELIEVE ALL INCLUDED HEREIN TO BE SOUNDLY BASED UPON SCRIPTURE”
    Then on the second paragraph he repeats the damnable heresy that Adam had the Holy Spirit, ie was Perfect and Divine.

    Murray version can be downloaded here : http://www.lovestthoume.com/PDF-Files/lawpowerofthespirit.pdf

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Correction to my above post:
    “Then on the second paragraph OF CHAPTER ONE he repeats the damnable heresy that Adam had the Holy Spirit, ie was Perfect and Divine”
    This is what he writes: “A new birth of this Spirit of God in man is as necessary to make fallen man alive again unto God as it was to make Adam at the first in the image and likeness of God”…This is to say that Genesis 3:22 is a lie.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs wrote:
    “I can clearly see the occult referencing in Laws book”
    I just can’t believe that someone reads Law’s writings (any of Law’s writings) and fails to see how occult it is. Sorry Redeemed and Carolyn, but it is so obvious.
    Yet, the amount of attacks from both of you to me has simply been unbelievable. Redeemed, are you serious to liken me to Satan, the “accuser of the brethren?”

    Marion wrote:
    “But as we have seen before, many what we would consider a “good apologist” or “watchman” have merely brought in the heresies they uncover and “warn” about through the back door.”
    That says it all, and those who fail to recognize that leave themselves vulnerable to the onslaught of deception that is ravaging the world.

    @Debs, simply read Hunt’ introduction and see the amount of praise he pours on Law and his writings.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    @Debs,
    You said in #66 referring to Hunt’s praise of Calvin:
    “I have no answer for this one… dumbfounded actually.”

    Now what about this one (from Hunt’s intro):

    “Often the thought has come to me of seeing LAW and CALVIN in heaven, side by side, in deepest prostration, special witnesses to that absolute dependence which alone can bring God the glory due to His name”

    and this one (still from Hunt’s intro):

    “I cannot say how much I owe to this volume of Law (An Affectionate Address to the Clergy). I ask the help of all who learn to value the book to bring it to the notice of those who preach the Gospel. I BEG of my brethren in the ministry to give it no cursory perusal. I am confident that a patient and prayerful study will bring a rich blessing”

    A saint of the past whom we love to quote on this blog said:
    “Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died.” H.A. Ironside

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed wrote:
    “Just EXACTLY how was Law into the occult? Please, some SPECIFICS and be sure they are FACTUAL”

    If after reading my post #39 and the references I made to specific Addresses of Law’s book (Addr-###), and also Marion’s posts on this subject, you still don’t see the occult of Law, I don’t know what other specifics and facts I can give you. Maybe you and I don’t agree on what is occult and what is not.
    Debs also has seen the occult of Law’s writings.

    I am not recommending Debs take down this article, no less than I recommend she takes down articles written by others she has later exposed as being unsound or even deceivers. As long as people read it for INFORMATION only and are warned that the author was a deceiver and that reader need to exercise careful discernment with the author’s sound material.

    About Boehme’s influence on Law, ACCORDING TO wikipedia, Law started being influenced by Boehme’s writings at least in 1734 (ie when he was 48, and he died 27 years later at age 75). IMHO that is not what one would call “later in life”. (I believe a deeper research could reveal that the influence started earlier than 1734)
    Most of Law’s writings occurred after he started being influenced by Boehme, the Address to the Clergy being his last work (he references Boehme by name, calling him “blessed” in Addr-31).
    Law is the one who translated Boehme works into english, and thus made him known and brought his influence to the wide western world (British Empire and North America).

    Mystic and occutist Jane Lead also influenced Law. This is what you will find in wikipedia entry on Lead:

    The Philadelphian Society

    In 1663 Jane Leade met John Pordage. In 1668, Jane Leade joined a small English Behmenist group led by John Pordage, an Anglican priest who had been ejected from his parish in 1655 because of differing views, but then reinstated in 1660 during the English Restoration.[1] Leade remained in this group after her husband’s death in 1670, and this was also when she began keeping her spiritual diary, which would later be published as A Fountain of Gardens.[2] Left nearly destitute after the death of her husband, Leade joined the Pordage household in 1674 and remained there until his death in 1681. Leade assumed leadership of this group after Pordage’s death, and in 1694, the group became known as the Philadelphian Society For The Advancement Of Piety And Divine Philosophy (the Philadelphians).[3] Leade’s writings and visions formed the core of the group’s spiritual goals and ideas. They rejected the idea of being a church, preferring the term society, and none of the members ceased their memberships in existing churches. Together, the group held views that were somewhat similar to Pantheism, regarding the belief in the presence of God in all things, and with a Nondualist component, in that they also believed the presence of the Holy Spirit exists in each and everyone’s soul, and that one can become enlightened and illuminated by living a virtuous life and seeking truth through the wisdom of God.

    The movement flourished until the early 18th century when, with Leade’s death in 1704, its membership began to dwindle. It was briefly revived in 1706 when they held meetings with the French Camisards, and then faded into obscurity.[4] Nevertheless it had converts in Europe and America. Leade’s spiritual and literary legacy can be found in Radical German Pietism, particularly in the Moravians under Nicolaus Ludwig Zinzendorf, in German Romanticism, and in the works of Emanuel Swedenborg, William Law and William Blake.[5] Although no longer officially a functioning group, many of the Philadelphian Society’s views and writings, particularly those by Jane Leade, remained influential among certain groups of Behmenists, Pietists, Radical Pietists, Christian mystics, and Esoteric Christians, such as the Society of the Woman in the Wilderness (led by Johannes Kelpius), the Ephrata Cloister, and the Harmony Society, among others.

  • Carolyn

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hunt_(Christian_apologist)

    Here’s what Dave stands for and against…this is wiki, edited by Dave himself

    “Hunt is a strict Biblical Creationist – refutations of evolution are a frequent topic of his radio programs, Search the Scriptures Daily and According to God’s Word. He has stated that “I think that you would have to be, in my opinion, an idiot to think that this universe happened by chance.”[3]
    Hunt believes occult or pagan influences are pervasive in modern culture – this includes evolution, as well as all forms of psychology, some forms of entertainment, all forms of science-fiction or fantasy[citation needed] – especially Harry Potter – yoga, some forms of medicine, environmental concern or conservation and much of public education. His book Occult Invasionis dedicated to this area, while several other books mention it in part.
    [edit]Calvinism
    Hunt addressed Calvinism in a book called What Love is This? Calvinism’s Misrepresentation of God, published in 2002 and revised in 2004 and 2006. He sought to refute many alleged misconceptions of Calvinism without taking an Arminian stance. He outlined a theological middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism, where, according to Hunt, one can believe in eternal security but reject Calvinistic teaching. Also published in 2004 was Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views, co-written in a point-counterpoint debate format by Hunt and Calvinist apologist James White.
    [edit]Catholicism
    In A Woman Rides the Beast, he identifies the Roman Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon from the prophecies in chapters 17 and 18 of the Book of Revelation.
    [edit]Mormonism
    The Godmakers, which Dave Hunt co-wrote with Ed Decker, and the accompanying film, The God Makers, was an expose on Mormonism, highlighting the Mormon belief that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer and many other facets of Mormonism. Jeremiah Films made a video that is based on the book.[4]
    [edit]Other
    The Seduction of Christianity (co-written with Tom McMahon), which categorized Word of Faith teachings, meditation, and psychology-based counseling as New Age heresies, generated much debate in the 1980s. Responses from meditation proponents and from Calvinist re-constructionist writers include Seduction?? A Biblical Response and The Reduction of Christianity. Hunt has written a rejoinder to the latter critics in his Whatever Happened to Heaven?
    Hunt wrote about Y2K with the intent of refuting the fearful predictions being made by other Christian fundamentalist writers (Y2K: A Reasoned Response To Mass Hysteria).
    In his most recent book, “Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny”, Hunt supports the Creationist viewpoint and alleges deficiencies in both the Big Bang theory and the theory of evolution.”

    To Dave, I owe a debt. He helped me begin to see the error in the seductions that I was following. Many others owe him for helping them to understand the error of Catholicism and the pervasiveness of the occult.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul…from the PDF you linked to on William Law:

    “The one need of our churches, of our life, and our work, is, the continuous operation of the Holy Spirit. That one promise of the Father through His blessed Son is the continuous operation of the Holy Spirit. Shall we not say that the one cry of our heart and the one study of our life shall be, how to live in such simple, absolute dependence upon God, that the con- tinuous operation of the Holy Spirit may be our blessed portion.
    That God may visit His Church, and fill all His saints with His Holy Spirit, is my fervent prayer.”

    ANDREW MURRAY

    I don’t see anything wrong with that statement. And I don’t see anything wrong with anything that I’ve read so far…but it’s not really something I want to go delving into. I don’t see the point. So, perhaps Dave Hunt got excited about something he was reading…it’s a little book. It’s his opinion that it could be a blessing and he had a few different ideas than you might have had. Does that make him a child of hell. I don’t think so. If you think so, don’t spread it here. We have found a lot more to agree with than to disagree with.

    As for whining about how Redeemed and I are treating you? If you can dish it out, Paul, you should be able to take it. I am treating you as I would any other good Catholic Novice or Calvinist Sovereigntist who has taken upon himself to refute a great Protestant Apologist like Dave Hunt.

    And here is an excerpt from just such a Catholic, Benedict Novice and what he has to say about him. Accurate, perhaps, but biased to reflect Catholicism (of course). Yu can almost feel the hot breath of Catholic rhetoric bleeding through in Catholic burps and insinuations. Especially harsh is his last remark…ouch! Funny, down through history, even agnostics have said some things worth repeating…..

    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=875

    “Hunt’s new opinions about the gifts of the Holy Spirit put him on a collision course with his Brethren congregation. When the elders at Hunt’s church found out about his attendance at a charismatic home group, they charged him with heresy and excommunicated him. But soon Hunt began to see some of the dangers of enthusiasm in his charismatic prayer group: the lack of spiritual discernment, the “easy believism” without discipleship or commitment, and the lack of both love and unity.

    Hunt began to look for a via media between the charismatics and the more conventional (cessationist) evangelicals. He read the writings of the South African evangelist Andrew Murray, whose teaching on the Holy Spirit derived from the writings of the Anglican mystic William Law, whom Hunt began to study assiduously. In 1971 Hunt produced an edition of Law’s book An Humble, Earnest and Affectionate Address to the Clergy, under the title The Power of the Spirit. Hunt saw Law’s teaching as the golden mean between cessationism and the charismatic renewal. In his introduction to this work. Hunt wrote:

    He [Law] would rebuke, ..both camps…. To the mainline denominational adherent he would press home the necessity of the sovereignty and power of the Holy Spirit for today; and upon the Pentecostal he would impress the fact that the power of the Spirit is bestowed primarily to witness and to live a holy life.

    Without realizing it. Hunt was groping toward the Catholic position on faith, grace, and the special charisms in the life of the Church. If only Hunt were not prejudiced by Darby’s dispensationalism, he might see this and recognize the substantial Catholicity of Law’s spiritual teaching.

    The missteps of the Protestant Reformation have created the problematic situation Hunt has, in part, correctly recognized. He even sees part of the answer in the spirituality of William Law. The Catholic tradition that Hunt excoriates is itself simply the Holy Spirit—guided elucidation of the revealed Word. Like the Virgin Mary, the Church is filled with the Holy Spirit and treasures the Word in her heart, that it may remain in all its purity for all generations. Hunt’s identification of Catholic tradition with “mere traditions of men” is wide of the mark. It could be more aptly applied to the eccentric doctrinal system of dispensationalism, the very system Hunt unquestioningly accepts.

    By 1985 Hunt came practically full circle to near-cessationism, almost to where he had begun. In alarm at the advance of New Age ideas, Hunt began to oppose the enthusiasm of the charismatic renewal, which he saw as influenced by occultic and Gnostic assumptions (putting faith in faith rather than in Christ, and such). Hunt still sees practically all political involvements as participation in the establishment of the New Age—dominated reign of the Antichrist — with the help of Catholicism and Christian Reconstruction, no doubt.

    There is a final irony in Dave Hunt’s story. He remains a follower and admirer of William Law, the high-church Anglican mystic who refused to swear allegiance to the House of Hanover. As a nonjuror, Law lost his career in the Church of England but remained a faithful Anglican of basically Catholic sympathies: His writings reflect the influence of Thomas a Kempis, Ruysbroeck, and other medievals. Law also commended the religious life of consecrated celibacy and poverty as found among monks and nuns, and he emphasized the indwelling of Christ in the soul of the Christian. William Law’s spiritual teaching is essentially Catholic. It is therefore not surprising that Law’s writings profoundly influenced John Henry Newman and other members of the Oxford Movement in their attitude toward both the spiritual life and the Establishment. Though Law, as a nonjuror, was disqualified from church office, he disapproved of schism and dissent.

    The problem with men like Darby and Hunt — the burden they bear and the burden they impose onus—is that they are perpetually looking for some pristine Christian purity and constantly accusing others of falling prey to pagan influences. And yet, at some point in their ever-renewed protest against Catholicism, they arbitrarily assert that one or more parts of Catholic Christianity has remained incorrupt — it may be the authorizing of the canon of Scripture, the gifts of the Spirit, the mystical tradition, or the reality of miracles.

    A.W. Tozer, the great evangelical pastor, is another figure whom Hunt deeply respects and commends as a model of spiritual discernment. But Hunt conveniently ignores the fact that Tozer gratefully acknowledged his spiritual debt to St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and Brother Lawrence. Is it likely that such a godly evangelical was deceived by false Catholic mystics? If Catholicism is truly apostate, as Hunt shouts from the rooftops, then how can the Catholic mystics be reliable guides in the spiritual life?

    We must say to Dave Hunt, as to all anti-Catholic Protestants: If the springs of Catholic tradition are as poisoned as you say, why do you drink from them when you need to slake your spiritual thirst? •”

    W. Robert Aufill is a Benedictine novice at Saint Louis Abbey in St. Louis, where he has taken the name Brother Ambrose in honor of St. Ambrose Barlow, the English Benedictine martyr who was executed in 1641.

    I rest my case. Dave Hunt is fallible. The Pope is not. And the rest of us…are Christians who need to focus on the bigger picture of salvation in Christ and stop quibbling over lesser points of importance, unless you have more time to waste than I do.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    One last little comment from me on William Law…it would appear from this biography, that in the later part of his life he did go into mysticism. I’m not a big fan of his writings anyhow…and certainly not of mysticism…going inside myself to find God or bringing to life the divine spark…etc. I would not recommend him… but as for Dave, according to the Catholic researcher above, he came full circle back to near-cessationism, where he began. So…we all take our journeys. I was a mystic at one point and now I’m not at all…and so it goes…

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/law

    “In the area of practical divinity he wrote such works as The Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life (1728), together with its predecessor, A Treatise of Christian Perfection (1726), which deeply influenced the chief actors in the great Evangelical revival. The Serious Call affected others quite as deeply. Samuel Johnson, Gibbon, Lord Lyttelton and Bishop Horne all spoke enthusiastically of its merits; and it is still the only work by which its author is popularly known. It has high merits of style, being lucid and pointed to a degree.

    . Though the least popular, by far the most interesting, original and suggestive of all Law’s works are those which he wrote on mysticism in his later years, after he had become an enthusiastic admirer (not a disciple) of Jacob Boehme, the Teutonic theosophist. From his earliest years he had been deeply impressed with the piety, beauty and thoughtfulness of the writings of the Christian mystics, but it was not till after his, accidental meeting with the works of Boehme, about 1734, that pronounced mysticism appeared in his works. Law’s mystic tendencies divorced him from the practical minded Wesley. These include The Spirit of Prayer (1752); The Way to Divine Knowledge (1752); The Spirit of Love (1754); A Dialogue between a Methodist and a Churchman(1760 ); and An Humble, Earnest and Affectionate Address to the Clergy (1761).”

    And now I come full circle. Dave Hunt’s name is known and feared and hated by the Catholic/Calvinist camps because he “shouted it from the rooftops” as the Benedictine novice said, and he wouldn’t allow them to change the focus of the issues like this chap did in discrediting Dave’s character and history and by making Dave Hunt the one with the “issues”. The reality is that they are enemies of the cross because they add works, tradition, idolatry, infant baptism and false teaching, exalting doctrines of men above the Scriptures.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    @Debs,
    You said in #66 referring to Hunt’s praise of Calvin:
    “I have no answer for this one… dumbfounded actually.”

    Now what about this one (from Hunt’s intro):

    “Often the thought has come to me of seeing LAW and CALVIN in heaven, side by side, in deepest prostration, special witnesses to that absolute dependence which alone can bring God the glory due to His name”

    and this one (still from Hunt’s intro):

    “I cannot say how much I owe to this volume of Law (An Affectionate Address to the Clergy). I ask the help of all who learn to value the book to bring it to the notice of those who preach the Gospel. I BEG of my brethren in the ministry to give it no cursory perusal. I am confident that a patient and prayerful study will bring a rich blessing”

    A saint of the past whom we love to quote on this blog said:
    “Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died.” H.A. Ironside

    When were these books written? What are the dates and the republished dates?

    Sorry for my absence from the blog, I am not ignoring the matter, I kinda fell and sprained my left wrist and I’m really struggling to type here, among other things that can go wrong. So dont get me wrong, I am looking into this matter.

  • John Chingford

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Hi Carolyn and Paul

    I would like to respond to both of you.

    First to Paul re comment 72 and 73 ““Then on the second paragraph OF CHAPTER ONE he repeats the damnable heresy that Adam had the Holy Spirit, ie was Perfect and Divine”

    Why is it a damnable heresy? It is perfectly clear that Adam WAS made perfect, as was everything else. God said “it was VERY good” Gen 1:31

    Also: in verse 27 it says “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

    Until Adam and Eve sinned they WERE perfect. Everything was perfect with NO death nor decay UNTIL sin corrupted EVERYTHING.

    Was Adam divine? Scripture is not clear about that, but Adam WAS alive spiritually. Ephesians 2:1 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins”. Adam died spiritually and that was passed on to all of us. Then in 1 Cor 15:45-49:

    ” “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.”

    The second Adam was Jesus who was and always has been and ever will be perfect. The second Adam NEVER sinned, whereas the first Adam DID sin. Can we deduct from that, that Adam was divine? I do not believe we can. Adam was perfect (before he sinned). The key is where it says “The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven”. Adam WAS NOT a “little god” but a benefactory of the spiritual blessings that WE now have in Christ.

    now to Carolyn

    Carolyn, I am confused by the Catholic excerpt in your comment 78.

    That excerpt seems to be condemning David Hunt as having Catholic sympathies who is returning (little by little) to the Catholic fold as understood by a Catholic teacher because of the things David is teaching.

    If you support David Hunt, why on earth would you post that excerpt which goes against the grain of your defence of him? If the catholic writer is telling the truth then it would indeed be cause of concern about DH’s true position in 2013 about the Catholic church. It shows that DH has been on a journey and OFTEN changed his mind about his convictions. The important thing is what he believes NOW, not what he used to believe.

    In any case, can we trust/believe ANYTHING that catholics (or calvinists) issue from their pen?

    So, Carolyn, what point are you trying to make?

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Retraction of my “whining” statement to Paul. No one needs a smart mouth…sorry. Other than that, I maintain that we should not tar and feather Dave Hunt for a few isolated mystical endorsements or a few odd statements made at some point along his journey, unless it had a major impact on his apologetics ministry, which it didn’t….

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Paul
    @Debs,
    You said in #66 referring to Hunt’s praise of Calvin:
    “I have no answer for this one… dumbfounded actually.”
    Now what about this one (from Hunt’s intro):
    “Often the thought has come to me of seeing LAW and CALVIN in heaven, side by side, in deepest prostration, special witnesses to that absolute dependence which alone can bring God the glory due to His name”
    and this one (still from Hunt’s intro):
    “I cannot say how much I owe to this volume of Law (An Affectionate Address to the Clergy). I ask the help of all who learn to value the book to bring it to the notice of those who preach the Gospel. I BEG of my brethren in the ministry to give it no cursory perusal. I am confident that a patient and prayerful study will bring a rich blessing”
    A saint of the past whom we love to quote on this blog said:
    “Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died.” H.A. IronsideWhen were these books written? What are the dates and the republished dates?
    Sorry for my absence from the blog, I am not ignoring the matter, I kinda fell and sprained my left wrist and I’m really struggling to type here, among other things that can go wrong. So dont get me wrong, I am looking into this matter.

    Debs, Paul is being very deceptive here. This quote IS from the intro to Hunt’s book, but it is a quote from Andrew Murray, not Hunt.

    Hunt had a blind spot where Andrew Murray is concerned, that is clear and of concern. That is how he came to know about Law. HOWEVER, there is a greater principle here.

    Hunt made a mistake, but he DID state in that same intro that Paul quotes from that he did not agree with all of Law’s teachings.

    Paul is taking a MISTAKE Hunt made and blowing it all out of proportion. He is bent on destroying a godly man’s works and reputation over one mistake. Paul has no kind words to say about Dave Hunt who gave his life in service to the Lord and wrote MANY books EXPOSING evils. Has Paul read any of Hunt’s books?

    In his book, “What Love is This?” Hunt clearly denounces Calvin and exposes his wicked deeds. So Paul digs up this obscure comment from a book written long before and camps on it. Paul is more interested in destroying Dave Hunt than he is about the evils of Calvinism!!!

    Then he has the audacity to quote H.A. Ironside who would certainly not agree with Paul’s pickiness. I feel as if I know Dr. Ironside as I have all of his commentaries in my library and make regular use of them and have done so for years. It is insulting to him to bring his wonderful quote into this discussion. Dr. Ironside would never be a party to this character assination.

    Paul is making mountains out of molehills. And yes, he has made false accusations and twisted the facts. When someone does that they are aiding and abetting the works of Satan. Dave Hunt is not a dangerous false teacher.

    I suppose the only thing that would make Paul happy is to take down the Hunt article.
    And that would do a lot of good wouldn’t it? We can know for sure that it would make Satan happy.

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Re: CArolyn’s #78, 79, 80

    THANK YOU for your research which led to a credible presentation of the facts and a concise summary of what is going on here, and what is important.

    I urge Paul to consider them carefully and prayerfully before he continues his rant.

    Go find a REAL false teacher who has spent their life shelling out materials that are harmful to the flock.

    You are right – Hunt never claimed to be infallible, but a student of the Word and a servant of the Lord. That is an example we all can and should follow. And to have a humble heart and extend grace to one another. I see neither of these qualities displayed in Paul’s writings here. That does not mean we tolerate false teaching, but when it is said and done, Dave Hunt is NOT a false teacher.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs,

    I am sorry for your sprained wrist and wish you a prompt recovery. May God’s word “be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy [wrist] bones.” Prov 3:8

    These quotes are from “The Power of the Spirit”
    Hunt wrote an introduction, re-edited and published Law’s occultic and New Age book under this title…42 years ago (1971).
    The original title is “AN HUMBLE, EARNEST, AND Affectionate ADDRESS TO THE CLERGY”
    My point is, Hunt has never repudiated nor denounced nor exposed it, meaning he still holds to those views and what he wrote therein. TBC is still promoting and selling the book, and I can’t believe Hunt withdrew it and it resurfaced only after he “retired” from the helm of TBC.

    On the contrary, this is what the Ephesians did:
    Act 19:18-20 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

    And Paul could later write to them and command them to
    “…have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” Eph 5:11

    We have all at some point in our lives been deceived, led astray, gotten involved with false doctrines and false teachers. What have we done then when our eyes were opened: Expose, denounce, reject, separate, turn our back to it/them. Period.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn,
    It’s funny. The more you try to defend Hunt, the more you expose him. One simply has to follow the dots and connect the dots.

    I would like you to remember the following very important observation:
    Whenever you visit a ministry’s or church’s web site and see a button/link that says “Donate”, know instinctively that the said ministry/church IS already sold to the god Mammon.
    This is true of TBC.
    This is true of Saints Alive, the ministry of Ed Decker, co-author with Hunt of the book “The God Makers”.

    On another level, but below the “Donate” level, all those who “sell” the gospel/truth/word of God (those who sell stuff) are very vulnerable to be sold to the god Mammon, because they need the cash flowing to sustain the system/ministry. They need a clientèle, they need a following. So they set up subscription lists, free newsletters, freebees…Its all about marketing. For example, you look in the copyright page of “A Woman Rides the Beast”, and right there Hunt lures his readers to “subscribe” to his “free” newsletter.

    Sadly MOST of those who sell stuff have been sold to Mammon as well.
    Don’t be fooled, Satan is more clever than all of us, and he has “schemes/devices”. The Jesuit agenda is at work everywhere, and few will escape it.

    By the way, this Ed Decker guy, who poses as an expert and authority on cults, wrote a book in 1999 on cults titled “Fast Facts on False Teachings” which COMPLETELY OMITS the SDA cult.
    Again, look at the list of exceptional endorsements at the back cover of “The God Makers” by Decker-Hunt:
    -John MacArthur (Calvinist exposed by DTW)
    -Hal Lindsay (renown false prophet and false teacher)
    -Ron Carlson (another cults experts co-author with Decker of “Fast Facts on False Teachings” which COMPLETELY OMITS the SDA cult.)

    Listen, most of these men in the world of apologetics/scholars/experts in this or that (Hunt included) have simply found a niche market of gullible men followers to make merchandise of them.

    2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    Let us follow the admonition of the Apostle Paul:
    2 Tim 3:16-17 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    and of the Psalmist:

    Psalm 119:128 Therefore I esteem ALL thy precepts concerning ALL things to be right; and I HATE EVERY FALSE WAY.

  • Marion

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    These quotes stated above, (and copied below) from the Intro by Dave Hunt to William Law’s book “The Power of the Spirit” is quoted from Andrew Murray by Dave Hunt in the Intro which he wrote, and with which he is obviously in agreement. (I just got done reading it on Amazon.com).

    “Often the thought has come to me of seeing LAW and CALVIN in heaven, side by side, in deepest prostration, special witnesses to that absolute dependence which alone can bring God the glory due to His name”

    “I cannot say how much I owe to this volume of Law (An Affectionate Address to the Clergy). I ask the help of all who learn to value the book to bring it to the notice of those who preach the Gospel. I BEG of my brethren in the ministry to give it no cursory perusal. I am confident that a patient and prayerful study will bring a rich blessing”

    The Intro was written in 1967, and the last copyright was 2007, signed off as such, below:

    Dave Hunt
    Lausanne, Switzerland
    February 1967

    Also, I read the Forward. This was written by Norman P. Grubb. I remember seeing that name before, and went looking. He was a missionary to Africa.

    BUT…the thing MOST interesting about Norman, is that he wrote books. One of the books written by Norman was: “A Modern Viking: Abraham Vereide, Pioneer in Christian Leadership.”

    WOW!! Why is that significant? Abraham Vereide is the founder of what is known as “The Family”, aka “The Fellowship”. You can read all about them in a book called “The Family” by Jeff Sharlet. They are aka “The Christian Mafia”…you can read about that by googling Wayne Madsen; Jeff also has articles online. I read the whole book. The problem is, the “Jesus” they are taking to the “world” is the New Age “Cosmic Christ”. Debs has also done some work on “The Family.” This “network” is also in cahoots with the CNPers (who don’t kid yourself, their “Jesus” is the “cosmic” one too), who are ALSO interwoven with the whole “false”
    Calvary Chapel/CIA front “church system.” Of which crowd, Dave Hunt has been a participating member.

    Redeemed, you said,

    “Marion, here we have an attack on a man with a huge body of good work. And just what damage has he done with this little book that has been sitting in my library for many years? It did not damage me or lead me into mystical thinking.”

    In spite of a “huge body of good work”
    AND “just what damage has been done with this little book…” (I believe only God knows)
    AND in spite of the fact that “it did not damage” you or “lead” you “into mystical thinking”
    AND even though our beloved Dave Hunt is infirm and about to leave this world…

    does this mean we are not to point out the “mystical” and soundly Luciferian ideas promoted therein..and not warn? Does this mean that Dave Hunt gets a free pass because all his good “outweighs” in some opinions potential “damage” from “this little book?”…or because he is a gentle, humble, kindly sort?

    The truth is those who “run” with the wolves…are themselves…wolves in sheep’s clothing.
    The reason they are hard to detect is because they “look” like us and they “sound” like us. They need a “huge body of good work” to earn credibility in “the body of believers.” But there is ALWAYS leaven. To dismiss it is wreckless and dangerous.

    “Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
    Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
    Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and WICKEDNESS; but with the unleavened bread of SINCERITY and TRUTH.” (1 Cor. 5:6b-8) (caps mine)

    On this link: http://www.seekgod.ca/cosmic.htm

    you will find segments praising Dave Hunt’s expose’ of mysticism in his “Seduction of Christianity”…along with segments exposing the heresies of Boehme and Law – whom…Dave embraces!!

    If one is not able to see the problems presented here, and throughout this thread, there is nothing more to be said. This must be the work of the Holy Spirit, to reveal truth, and I rest this case there. He is able!

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs: “I kinda fell and sprained my left wrist and I’m really struggling to type here,”

    Do you think we should expect a blog spotlighting your newest ailment when the Prasch media scouts get hold of this???

    Hope you aren’t in too much pain and KISS (Keep It Short Sister).

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn

    hahaha, I DID think about that and had a good chuckle to myself. To make matters worse I went and tripped and fell again yesterday (no I I don’t drink LOL) just very bad luck and 2 left feet, and now instead of a sprained wrist I have cracked bone in my wrist – I now have a cast on me arm for 6 weeks. FAN FLIPPIN TASTIC! I am residing myself to sitting on the couch and not going anywhere in case a fall again and break my neck HA HA. (much to the joy of those Calvinists)

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Response to Paul # 87

    Paul, you cast stones at Carolyn, but it is ironic that the more we hear from YOU, you expose your wacky ideas.

    Firstly, I AGREE, did you get that – AGREE with you that many ministries compromise to hawk their wares at conferences and travel the circuit.

    BUT – like others things you have said, you take it to an EXTREME. TBC does NOT use their free newsletter to generate donations. The newsletter is quite plain and not even done in color. It is not a slick publication, but quite plain.

    Here you go AGAIN, making accusations that are groundless. Have you ever run a ministry? Do you know of what you speak?

    Book publishers do not work for free. Even KJV Bibles with no copyright cost $$$. Is TBC supposed to offer their materials for FREE? They do offer a generous volume discount which I think is pretty unique. You make them out to be a bunch of money grubbers.

    You are not even being realistic! Ministries have expenses they have to meet. Yes, some abuse this, but you can’t fault TBC for selling their materials.

    And the people of God are to support the work of God. TBC has never solicited donations. They give the opportunity to donate, but what ministry doesn’t? And it is not in-your-face.

    Paul, you continue to astound me and I was done with this discussion, but I could not allow this false accusation to pass.

    Yes, you and Marion are relentless in your attacks, ripping Dave apart and casting him as an apostate, but he is not guilty of fleecing the sheep.

    I am utterly appalled at your self-righteous and petty attacks and frankly sick at heart over it. You see the speck in your brother’s eye when you have a log in your own.

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Satan is sure having a heyday on this thread. Attention has been turned off the all important topic of exposing Calvinism’s connection to Rome and turned into a character assination of the author.

    Instead of talking about the REAL enemy it has turned to the ridiculous and forced a defense of an imperfect man who had an unfortunate blind spot at one point in his life that did not permeate or taint his greater body of works.

    He has been painted as a sinister, closet mystic who has sold out to filthy lucre. And because some have come to his defense they are painted with the same broad brush as being soft on false teachers.

    Debs, the only way to hush these puppies is to take down the thread, but I hope you leave it up for those who are caught in the Calvinist web.

    And I would HIGHLY recommend Hunt’s book, What Love Is This? to anyone for a full, fair and complete examination of Calvinism.

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Reply to Paul # 86

    Again, Paul is fast and loose with the truth, the very thing he accuses Hunt of doing.

    TBC does NOT PROMOTE the Law book. You have to hunt for it in their online catalog. It it not listed in the TBC newsletter. They are NOT promoting this book.

    Yes, it would be better if they did not offer it, but it pales in comparison to the other good material available. And AGAIN, it is NOT promoted.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    John…ok…my point? The Catholic is using Hegelian Dialectic. He is taking two opposing views and coming up with a middle ground. He has changed the issues. Dave is anti Catholic. And he tries to make it appear that between the two opposing issues of anti-catholicism and mysticism, there is a third viable option….Catholicism.

    He makes Dave’s issues about non Catholic issues so that in the end, Catholicism is not so bad. He shows where the middle ground is but he completely ignores the Idolatry, the Mariolatry, the Saint Worship, The Eucharist, Mass, Prayers for the Dead, Confessions to Priest, the Scapular, Ex Cathedra, placing the Church above the Scriptures, placing Tradition above the Scripture, the fallacy of the Priesthood, calling them Father when Christ said “call no one Father”, forbidding priest to marry….these are the real issues with the Catholic Church that Dave WOULD NOT ignore and no…there is no middle ground. Dave did not change his stand on the issues, nor did he ever stop exposing this false system of Catholicism.

    My point is that Dave defended the cross. All these other issues are side stepping what Dave did…
    – making money from books? Who cares? Is the doctrine true? God will judge his motives.
    – we are not talking about Norman P Grubb or William Law or McArthur. We are talking about the actual, factual presentations by Dave Hunt
    – endorsements? ok…bad choice but again…let’s focus on the real issues. Did he tell the truth?

    Discredit Dave if that’s what you want to do…For myself, I will content myself with remembering all the times I read what Dave researched. Present with these factual presentations, was the witness in my Spirit of Truth! What he did for me, was point out errors, according to the Scriptures exposing the lies of the Occult, Roman Catholicism, Calvinism, Eastern Mysticism, etc. and I therefore, prefer to THANK him and leave the judgments about lesser issues with God.

    I’m with Redeemed on this one. Go hunt some real wolves guys! And Redeemed…you’re welcome! Thanks for the encouragement.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    John, another point I was trying to make was that we KNOW that the author of that article is Catholic. We KNOW that he is going to cast doubt on Dave Hunt in order to justify his own position. We KNOW what his agenda is, so calling Dave Hunt a wolf is not arrived at as a result of respectable research.

    My point is, that when someone like Paul or Marion calls Dave Hunt a wolf, we are not expecting it because they seems to have no agenda, other than good clean research…or do they? Well, this is the question I’m asking. It’s one thing to advise against the little booklet by William Law and Dave’s other perhaps questionable associations but do we then call him a wolf? Is our agenda based on sound judgement of the facts or jumping to conclusions based on angry assertions and indignant postulations?

    My point was also that…though the REAL facts do not vary that much, the conclusions can be altered drastically by facilitation. These are the facts presented by evidence….ie: Dave had charismatic associations, he became enthusiastic about a little book by William Law, he adhered to Darby and dispensationalism and he researched against the occult. In relating the facts, the Catholic’s expose is coloured by Catholic paradigm and favouring Catholic dogma. The truth becomes slanted in whichever way the author wants to take you if emotionalism and prejudice become involved.

    So, of course it isn’t wise to take what a Catholic says and put any trust in it. But equally important is for a Christian to keep facts separate from their own bias and opinion. Fact: Dave presented truth about many false teachers. Fact: He was faithful in service of apologetics. Fact: He preached Christ and him crucified as a central doctrine.

    I would say that it’s totally ok for Paul and Marion to present these lesser issues about Dave Hunt (in love) and let the Christian individual decide for himself if he wants to separate from Dave Hunt because of these. But to label him as a wolf…not ok.

    It’s the same with what is happening with the Prophecy In the News crowd. They seem to be intermingling and aligning themselves with all kinds of perversions of the truth and instead of a smaller group united in the Truth, they are becoming an inclusive group who are uniting in error. Does that make them all wolves? No, not yet anyway. But for myself, I feel that I am being called out of that whole circle. I have been alerted to some of the error and it’s my decision to stay or leave. I will leave. And I will continue to pray for them.

    In conclusion, we need to deal with the facts and let the facts dictate our conclusions…not someone’s opinions about the facts. Guilt by association…depends on if the message of Jesus is being obscured or twisted.
    Titus 3:10
    Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.
    If we see someone who has been warned about his associations with heretics and refuses to listen, then by all means…separate from them.
    1 Timothy 4:16
    Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

  • Eli

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul (Continue in His Word) wrote:

    Carolyn,
    It’s funny. The more you try to defend Hunt, the more you expose him. One simply has to follow the dots and connect the dots.
    I would like you to remember the following very important observation:
    Whenever you visit a ministry’s or church’s web site and see a button/link that says “Donate”, know instinctively that the said ministry/church IS already sold to the god Mammon.
    This is true of TBC.
    This is true of Saints Alive, the ministry of Ed Decker, co-author with Hunt of the book “The God Makers”.
    On another level, but below the “Donate” level, all those who “sell” the gospel/truth/word of God (those who sell stuff) are very vulnerable to be sold to the god Mammon, because they need the cash flowing to sustain the system/ministry. They need a clientèle, they need a following. So they set up subscription lists, free newsletters, freebees…Its all about marketing. For example, you look in the copyright page of “A Woman Rides the Beast”, and right there Hunt lures his readers to “subscribe” to his “free” newsletter.
    Sadly MOST of those who sell stuff have been sold to Mammon as well.
    Don’t be fooled, Satan is more clever than all of us, and he has “schemes/devices”. The Jesuit agenda is at work everywhere, and few will escape it.
    By the way, this Ed Decker guy, who poses as an expert and authority on cults, wrote a book in 1999 on cults titled “Fast Facts on False Teachings” which COMPLETELY OMITS the SDA cult.
    Again, look at the list of exceptional endorsements at the back cover of “The God Makers” by Decker-Hunt:
    -John MacArthur (Calvinist exposed by DTW)
    -Hal Lindsay (renown false prophet and false teacher)
    -Ron Carlson (another cults experts co-author with Decker of “Fast Facts on False Teachings” which COMPLETELY OMITS the SDA cult.)
    Listen, most of these men in the world of apologetics/scholars/experts in this or that (Hunt included) have simply found a niche market of gullible men followers to make merchandise of them.
    2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
    Let us follow the admonition of the Apostle Paul:
    2 Tim 3:16-17 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
    and of the Psalmist:
    Psalm 119:128 Therefore I esteem ALL thy precepts concerning ALL things to be right; and I HATE EVERY FALSE WAY.

    @Paul, you never answered my question. According to you, since Dave Hunt is a Non-cessationist, he is considered a wolf? (putting ALL of your other claims against the man aside). So if someone is a Non-cessationist then they are a heretic? Where is that in scripture?

  • Eli

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn wrote:

    Paul…from the PDF you linked to on William Law:
    “The one need of our churches, of our life, and our work, is, the continuous operation of the Holy Spirit. That one promise of the Father through His blessed Son is the continuous operation of the Holy Spirit. Shall we not say that the one cry of our heart and the one study of our life shall be, how to live in such simple, absolute dependence upon God, that the con- tinuous operation of the Holy Spirit may be our blessed portion.
    That God may visit His Church, and fill all His saints with His Holy Spirit, is my fervent prayer.”
    ANDREW MURRAY
    I don’t see anything wrong with that statement. And I don’t see anything wrong with anything that I’ve read so far…but it’s not really something I want to go delving into. I don’t see the point. So, perhaps Dave Hunt got excited about something he was reading…it’s a little book. It’s his opinion that it could be a blessing and he had a few different ideas than you might have had. Does that make him a child of hell. I don’t think so. If you think so, don’t spread it here. We have found a lot more to agree with than to disagree with.
    As for whining about how Redeemed and I are treating you? If you can dish it out, Paul, you should be able to take it. I am treating you as I would any other good Catholic Novice or Calvinist Sovereigntist who has taken upon himself to refute a great Protestant Apologist like Dave Hunt.
    And here is an excerpt from just such a Catholic, Benedict Novice and what he has to say about him. Accurate, perhaps, but biased to reflect Catholicism (of course). Yu can almost feel the hot breath of Catholic rhetoric bleeding through in Catholic burps and insinuations. Especially harsh is his last remark…ouch! Funny, down through history, even agnostics have said some things worth repeating…..
    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=875
    “Hunt’s new opinions about the gifts of the Holy Spirit put him on a collision course with his Brethren congregation. When the elders at Hunt’s church found out about his attendance at a charismatic home group, they charged him with heresy and excommunicated him. But soon Hunt began to see some of the dangers of enthusiasm in his charismatic prayer group: the lack of spiritual discernment, the “easy believism” without discipleship or commitment, and the lack of both love and unity.
    Hunt began to look for a via media between the charismatics and the more conventional (cessationist) evangelicals. He read the writings of the South African evangelist Andrew Murray, whose teaching on the Holy Spirit derived from the writings of the Anglican mystic William Law, whom Hunt began to study assiduously. In 1971 Hunt produced an edition of Law’s book An Humble, Earnest and Affectionate Address to the Clergy, under the title The Power of the Spirit. Hunt saw Law’s teaching as the golden mean between cessationism and the charismatic renewal. In his introduction to this work. Hunt wrote:
    He [Law] would rebuke, ..both camps…. To the mainline denominational adherent he would press home the necessity of the sovereignty and power of the Holy Spirit for today; and upon the Pentecostal he would impress the fact that the power of the Spirit is bestowed primarily to witness and to live a holy life.
    Without realizing it. Hunt was groping toward the Catholic position on faith, grace, and the special charisms in the life of the Church. If only Hunt were not prejudiced by Darby’s dispensationalism, he might see this and recognize the substantial Catholicity of Law’s spiritual teaching.
    The missteps of the Protestant Reformation have created the problematic situation Hunt has, in part, correctly recognized. He even sees part of the answer in the spirituality of William Law. The Catholic tradition that Hunt excoriates is itself simply the Holy Spirit—guided elucidation of the revealed Word. Like the Virgin Mary, the Church is filled with the Holy Spirit and treasures the Word in her heart, that it may remain in all its purity for all generations. Hunt’s identification of Catholic tradition with “mere traditions of men” is wide of the mark. It could be more aptly applied to the eccentric doctrinal system of dispensationalism, the very system Hunt unquestioningly accepts.
    By 1985 Hunt came practically full circle to near-cessationism, almost to where he had begun. In alarm at the advance of New Age ideas, Hunt began to oppose the enthusiasm of the charismatic renewal, which he saw as influenced by occultic and Gnostic assumptions (putting faith in faith rather than in Christ, and such). Hunt still sees practically all political involvements as participation in the establishment of the New Age—dominated reign of the Antichrist — with the help of Catholicism and Christian Reconstruction, no doubt.
    There is a final irony in Dave Hunt’s story. He remains a follower and admirer of William Law, the high-church Anglican mystic who refused to swear allegiance to the House of Hanover. As a nonjuror, Law lost his career in the Church of England but remained a faithful Anglican of basically Catholic sympathies: His writings reflect the influence of Thomas a Kempis, Ruysbroeck, and other medievals. Law also commended the religious life of consecrated celibacy and poverty as found among monks and nuns, and he emphasized the indwelling of Christ in the soul of the Christian. William Law’s spiritual teaching is essentially Catholic. It is therefore not surprising that Law’s writings profoundly influenced John Henry Newman and other members of the Oxford Movement in their attitude toward both the spiritual life and the Establishment. Though Law, as a nonjuror, was disqualified from church office, he disapproved of schism and dissent.
    The problem with men like Darby and Hunt — the burden they bear and the burden they impose onus—is that they are perpetually looking for some pristine Christian purity and constantly accusing others of falling prey to pagan influences. And yet, at some point in their ever-renewed protest against Catholicism, they arbitrarily assert that one or more parts of Catholic Christianity has remained incorrupt — it may be the authorizing of the canon of Scripture, the gifts of the Spirit, the mystical tradition, or the reality of miracles.
    A.W. Tozer, the great evangelical pastor, is another figure whom Hunt deeply respects and commends as a model of spiritual discernment. But Hunt conveniently ignores the fact that Tozer gratefully acknowledged his spiritual debt to St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and Brother Lawrence. Is it likely that such a godly evangelical was deceived by false Catholic mystics? If Catholicism is truly apostate, as Hunt shouts from the rooftops, then how can the Catholic mystics be reliable guides in the spiritual life?
    We must say to Dave Hunt, as to all anti-Catholic Protestants: If the springs of Catholic tradition are as poisoned as you say, why do you drink from them when you need to slake your spiritual thirst? •”
    W. Robert Aufill is a Benedictine novice at Saint Louis Abbey in St. Louis, where he has taken the name Brother Ambrose in honor of St. Ambrose Barlow, the English Benedictine martyr who was executed in 1641.
    I rest my case. Dave Hunt is fallible. The Pope is not. And the rest of us…are Christians who need to focus on the bigger picture of salvation in Christ and stop quibbling over lesser points of importance, unless you have more time to waste than I do.

    Tozer may have referenced a catholic here and there, but I have read many of his writings and he was sound. His book The Pursuit of God (in the last chapter, you can find it on PDF) he even puts down the catholic church.

    Dave Hunt himself is sound. Because the man is not perfect he deserves to get nit picked? If you went and did an extensive research on most bible teachers, you’d probably find just what it is you are looking for, flawedness.

    Redeemed hit the nail on the head in an above statement “We want grace for ourselves, but we don’t extend it to others easily do we? That’s a spirit and form of hypocritical self righteousness, when we are the only ones who have everything right.”

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    To Carolyn and Eli about Tozer.
    Below is the email I sent to TBC in Sept 2012. Read it carefully, and follow the links mentioned.

    Dear Brother Dave,

    I thank God for your courageous ministry and for standing up for the truth and being a watchman in this apostate generation. You are an inspiration to many of us young people who want to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

    I would like to bring the following findings on A W Tozer to your attention and ask you to carefully and prayerfully consider them.

    1) A reviewer of the book “The Mystic Spirituality of A.W. Tozer, a Twentieth-Century American Protestant” by E. Lynn Harris had this to say on Amazon.com:
    (http://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Spirituality-Twentieth-Century-American-Protestant/dp/0773498729/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top)

    The biographical memoir of Tozer by David J. Fant, Jr., titled “A. W. Tozer, A Twentieth Century Prophet” (1964), is used as a springboard for Ms. Harris’ focused study of Tozer’s mystical and conceptual approach to the world. At the end of Fant’s book, he included a list of books recommended by Tozer, “For those who would know `the deep things of God.'” It is this list of thirty-five mystical works (which are included as Appendix A of Harris’ book) that Ms. Harris used as a frame of reference for analyzing Tozer’s mystical approach. Tozer’s list includes such classics as “The Ascent of Mt. Carmel” and “Dark Night of the Soul” by John of the Cross, “The Cloud of Unknowing” and “Theologia Germanica” written anonymously, “The Practice of the Presence of God” by Brother Lawrence, “A Testament of Devotion” by Thomas Kelly, “Christian Perfection” by Fenelon, and “Revelations of Divine Love” by Julian of Norwich (the last being the only woman listed and who Tozer jokingly called his girlfriend). It must be noted, however, that the list was given by Mr. Fant with this qualification: “In recommending these books Dr. Tozer did not mean to put his stamp of approval on the entire contents. Rather they were offered as products of men and women who ardently loved their Lord; if any doctrinal defects should appear these would be far overbalanced by the spiritual verities.” Appendix B of Ms. Harris’ book includes a letter from Mr. Fant to the author stating that Tozer prepared the list himself in response to many inquiries and that there was a copy of each book in his personal library.

    I haven’t read the said biography myself (by David J. Fant, Jr., titled “A. W. Tozer, A Twentieth Century Prophet”) nor Mrs Harris book, but I do believe that this reviewer account is correct.
    Tozer provided a list of 35 mystical works to his readers of which a couple of titles are mentionned in this comment.
    Based on this comment alone, I would avoid Tozer because he was a dangerous mystical man. How come he would deliver his readers into the hands of Roman Catholic mystics by recommending them to “those who would know the deep things of God”?

    2) Then consider this series of posts:
    http://areyouaware.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/was-a-w-tozer-a-mystic/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/conclusion-of-carmelite-order-posts-or-why-i-am-writing-about-by-a-w-tozer/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/a-w-tozer-the-mystic-part-1/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/tozer-the-mystic-part-2-what-is-wrong-with-pursuing-god
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/a-w-tozer-the-pursuit-of-god-and-augustine/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/a-w-tozer-%E2%80%9Cthe-pursuit-of-god%E2%80%9D-von-hugel-bernard-of-clairvaux-and-cloud-of-unknowing/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/a-w-tozer-pursuit-of-god-the-chinese-sage-laotze-and-faber-the-catholic-hymnwriter/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/a-w-tozer-pursuit-of-god-thomas-a-kempis-and-nicholas-of-cusa/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/unbiblical-andor-mystical-phrases-in-the-pursuit-of-god-by-a-w-tozer/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/what-is-so-appealing-about-the-pursuit-of-god-by-a-w-tozer/
    http://justthebook.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/gods-word-or-mans-word-and-experience-posts/

    3) I have read “The pursuit of God” before, without any discernment, and after reading these posts, I revisited the book, and it is scary.
    This is how he concludes the preface to the book:

    “This book is a modest attempt to aid God’s hungry children so to find Him. Nothing here is new except in the sense that it is a discovery which my own heart has made of spiritual realities most delightful and wonderful to me. Others before me have gone much farther into these holy mysteries than I have done, but if my fire is not large it is yet real, and there may be those who can light their candle at its flame”

    The “others before me” he refers to these Roman Catholic mystics he recomends. Yet these people had no light in them (Isa 8:20), with their Mariolatry, baptismal regeneration, Sacraments, Mass, Eucharist, Papism, etc… how can they show the way to anyone?

    This is a quote from “The Pursuit of God”

    The author of the quaint old English classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, teaches us how to do this. “Lift up thine heart unto God with a meek stirring of love; and mean Himself, and none of His goods. And thereto, look thee loath to think on aught but God Himself. So that nought work in thy wit, nor in thy will, but only God Himself. This is the work of the soul that most pleaseth God.” Again, he recommends that in prayer we practice a further stripping down of everything, even of our theology. “For it sufficeth enough, a naked intent direct unto God without any other cause than Himself.” Yet underneath all his thinking lay the broad foundation of New Testament truth, for he explains that by “Himself” he means “God that made thee, and bought thee, and that graciously called thee to thy degree.” And he is all for simplicity: If we would have religion “lapped and folden in one word, for that thou shouldst have better hold thereupon, take thee but a little word of one syllable: for so it is better than of two, for even the shorter it is the better it accordeth with the work of the Spirit. And such a word is this word God or this word love.”

    Is the “one word”, “a little word of one syllable” that he quotes to use in prayer not an endorsement of and a recommendation to practice “Lectio Divina” taught in the very dangerous book “The Cloud of Unknowing”?

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Eli wrote:

    According to you, since Dave Hunt is a Non-cessationist, he is considered a wolf? (putting ALL of your other claims against the man aside). So if someone is a Non-cessationist then they are a heretic? Where is that in scripture?

    Could you please read the WHOLE thread and read ALL what I said including the references to Hunt and Law’s work?

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    About my mistakenly attributing Andrew Murray’s quotes to Dave Hunt:

    I used a Snipping Tool to select and copy Hunt’s introduction from Amazon’s preview, and paste the screen shots into a word document (You cannot copy-paste the text from Amazon’s previews). In the process I lost the indentations from the original that clearly delineate Murray’s blockquote from Hunt’s own words. Therefore when referring to the document I had put together with those shots, I mistakenly took some of Murray’s quote to be Hunt’s words, not having the indentation that would mark them out.
    I sincerely apologize for that. It wasn’t intentional, and certainly not to deceive anyone.

    In any case, Redeemed, all your attempts to paint me as deceptive, having a hidden agenda, the accuser of the brethren, etc, won’t fly, because the truth is the truth. Any sincere truth seeker soul who reads this discussion without any prejudice nor subjectivity will judge by himself.
    I too (like Marion) rest my case on this and defer to the Holy Spirit.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Reply to Redeemed #93

    You have a limited understanding of the meaning of the verb “to promote”.

    The primary meaning of “to promote” is “to help or encourage to exist or flourish; to further the progress of (something, esp. a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.”

    Now TBC is a not-for-profit organization. Which means their purpose is not to make money, but to promote, further, advance the cause of the Cross. All that they do, produce, sell, etc, is to this aim.
    By selling “The Power of the Spirit” by William Law (which is an edited version of An Address To The Clergy), TBC is helping and encouraging the ideas, philosophies, teachings of the book (and of the author) to exist and flourish. TBC is saying to the world: “this is good, this is helpful, this is truth, this is approved by God”. If you click on the link “Search by authors”, the name of William Law is there, hyperlinked to his book. They are saying: “This is a trustworthy author.” Indeed, TBC is endorsing William Law and promoting, disseminating, spreading his teachings, ideas, philosophy…

    By the way, one cannot sell a book and claim he is not “promoting” it. No, he is promoting the ideas and philosophies of the book. Would you imagine TBC selling “Mein Kampf” or “The Evolution of Species” or “The Communist Manifesto”? Of course they will never do that. Now, they do worst by selling “A Humble and Affectionate Address to the Clergy” (albeit repackaged under another title). If I had read “The power of the Spirit” and trusted Hunt and Murray and Law, I WOULD HAVE SEARCHED FOR THE REAL, UNDILUTED ORIGINAL WORK, the “Address To The Clergy”. And I wouldn’t have stopped there, I would have gone for the other works of Law. Indeed, Hunt writes in his introduction that he drew much from other writings of Law.

    Do you get it now?

    Your view is limited to only this secondary definition “To give publicity to (a product, organization, or venture) so as to increase sales or public awareness.”

  • [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I have read many of Dave Hunt’s books. I find him soundly Scriptural and soundly logical. I don’t agree with everyting Dave has said because he is a man and ALL men are fallible–albeit that Calvinists consider Calvin infallible, pretty much as Catholics consider their popes to be.

    I was in despair when I read Calvinists’ statements on-line some years back because I actually thought they could be correct. I was appalled and frightened by the Calvinist view of God. Then I read Dave Hunt’s soundly biblical and soundly logical “What Love is This?” I couldn’t thank God enough (and still haven’t) for this book which put me dead straight on Calvinism.

    I believe God used Dave powerfully with that book. I am still grateful for it.

    By then, I had already read “A Woman Rides the Beast” which, having studied history (MA), I could not fault his writing as a historian. His objectivity literally amazed me as a journalist and I could see that in this world he could easily blow most of our “Big Name” so-called journalists into a corner with his delivery of the facts (as those on Roman Catholicism).

    I have read much over the years by various experts on Roman Catholicism–its history, politics, dogmas, both pro and con–but never have I read a book that dealt with the subject as clearly and as concisely as Dave Hunt’s book did. To my mind, particularly as someone educated at Catholic schools, it was definitive.
    His book “Judgment Day”, dealing with the Middle East, had me near to tears and on the edge of rage, just by the actual facts it related. Actually, I was the same with those other two aforementioned books, which also amazed me at how Dave would not be distracted from the points and could simultaneously keep his emotions at bay. He has always managed that because he points back to the Bible.

    One thing I know is that Satan loathes him. I’m sure he loathed Calvin and the popes, as much his other religious tools who have served as his dupes, but I think he will have a special loathing for Christians who can dispel his darkness by flashing beams of light into it.

    Dave Hunt does that and he is often attacked by supposed Christians. And of all the attacks I’ve read against Dave Hunt (the most ridiculous being the Calvinist claim that he is a Jesuit!) I have found them on examination to be flawed, usually seriously.

    The work that has gone into his books is meticulous. It is apparent–to me at least–that he wants to serve God. He has been unfairly criticized for not being tough enough on Catholics or Calvinists. This is because he has kept a door open to them. That is not the same thing as failing to contend for the faith once delivered [Jude 3] which Dave’s writings shows he does fearlessly. He keeps the door open so that debate is always there.

    I keep my door open to Catholics, Jews, Moslems and pagans that I meet and know, bearing in mind 1 Corinthians 10:32. It is not a bad thing if we hope to win them to Christ. I closed the door only when people are openly hostile to God’s Word and know they are.

    I know some people like to quote Matt 7:1 & Luke 6:37, regarding judging, while forgetting 1 Corinthians 6:2-5, the later showing that there is a time to judge. We have to take all of those Scriptures to heart and not pick and choose as we see fit. We are to judge with righteous judgment. We do that by treating others as we’d like to be treated. If we expect to be judged by a different yardstick from how we judge others that makes us hypocrites. And it’s a good idea to check in Scripture the fate of unrepentant hypcrites!

    We can judge wrong from right. That’s right and proper. But we cannot judge what’s in someone’s heart. We don’t always know what’s behind their motives. In Matthew 7:16 Jesus Himself tells us we shall know them by their fruits. In all the writings and talks and debates of Dave Hunt that I have followed, I am sure his fruits are good. So if people are going to judge Dave’s fruits, they had better make sure it is with sound judgment and are not judging what is in his heart.
    For a long time I did not believe there was going to be a Rapture. Again I had read much pro and con but leaned to the con–till I read Dave Hunt’s take on the matter. He dealt with it from the historical, biblical and logical angles and he did so matter-of-factly. He dealt with so-called arguments from history and showed by logic how untenable they were. But the main thing he showed was that these claims (which he refuted anyway from history regarding it being a new idea and started by Catholics and so on) were besides the point. He proved the Rapture conclusively from the Bible! He showed where it was and that if there was not to be a Rapture then the Bible contradicts itself and so does Jesus Christ!

    Now I have no doubts about the Rapture and I’m thankful that Dave showed me it.

    Does that mean I put him on a pedestal? No! It means I checked the Scriptures and the facts of history [I Thess 5:21 & I John 4:1] to which he pointed, showing to me that he was sound. The bottom line is that I thank God for my finding Dave on line, as much as I have thanked Him for DTW. And I pray for Dave as I do for Debs.

    Maybe some of his critics should ask themselves how much they’ve done for Christ and His Gospel.

    Good on you, Redeemed for your comments. They were apt. Thanks.

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul neglected to mention the response he received from TBC. Isn’t that a little strange?

    He calls it inadequate, and he may be right, but at least they answered. I guarantee you that most ministries can’t hit the delete button fast enough or head for file # 13 when receiving letters such as this. I never cared for Tozer and am not defending him. I just think it is wrong not to include the response which I found online.

    TBC’s response to Paul’s letter in # 98.

    Dear Paul

    We have addressed this issue in a past newsletter. The Q&A follows.

    Thank you for writing.

    Ed
    Question: You have promoted books by A.W. Tozer, yet Tozer constantly quoted from Catholic mystics, and some have said that he even practiced “Lectio Divina.” In view of your warnings regarding the Contemplative Movement, how could you offer his books, knowing of his practices?

    Response: Tozer did not practice Lectio Divina, a method that many mystics and occultists have used to supposedly experience God. The exercise involves reading a Bible verse or phrase, often repeating it many times like a mantra, for the purpose of stimulating insights that transcend what might be gained from the normal reading and understanding of the Scriptures. Rather than understanding a passage based on the objective meaning of the words, the grammar of the verses, and the context, the words become devices for receiving personal, subjective revelation from God.

    Anyone who is familiar with the writings of Tozer knows that such a technique is completely foreign to what he taught throughout his lifetime. Nevertheless, that hasn’t stopped some people from referring to him in order to support their promotion of mystical methods and teachings.

    John Armstrong, for example (who is general editor of Roman Catholicism: Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Unites and Divides Us, Moody Press, 1994), has stated that Tozer “listened to God and practiced lectio divina in his reading habits.” The “Emerging Thought” blog, among other Emergent writers, has commented, “I am going to go through the book by Brother Lawrence called Practice of the Presence of God: The Best Rule of Holy Life.

    I already had someone on the leadership team comment (jokingly) about me teaching RCC stuff. Yet, I see that John Wesley and A. W. Tozer both recommended him.”

    To quote someone does not necessarily include recommending him. Yet, we would take issue with Tozer regarding some of the people he quotes. In chapter 3 of The Pursuit of God , “Removing the Veil,” Tozer quotes Chinese sage, Lao-tze: “That is the first step, and as…Lao-tze has said, ‘The journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step.’” Quoting this one point, which is hardly profound, is not “endorsing” Lao-Tze.

    One might wonder, however, where Tozer stood when one considers the Roman Catholics (Augustine, Nicholas of Cusa, Thomas á Kempis, Francis of Assisi, von Hugel, Bernard of Clairvaux, the poet William Blake, and hymn writer Frederick Faber, a convert to Catholicism) that he has quoted or referred to in his books.

    That’s rather puzzling, since the gospel that Tozer preached and wrote about so well couldn’t be more contrary to the gospel and dogmas of Catholicism, beliefs strictly held by those mentioned and most of whom were canonized as saints by the Church of Rome. TBC does not condone Tozer when he quotes those with whom we have serious theological disagreement (and with whom, we are sure, he would also disagree). Moreover, instances of such quotes are so few in his many, many volumes that it’s clear they were in no way significant to his teaching.

    Tozer himself recognized the confusion he generated by quoting those noted for their Roman Catholic mysticism. He wrote in his own defense,
    “Some of my friends good-humoredly–and some a little bit severely-have called me a ‘mystic.’ Well I’d like to say this about any mysticism I may suppose to have. If an archangel from heaven were to come, and were to start…telling me, teaching me, and giving me instruction, I’d ask him for the text. I’d say, ‘Where’s it say that in the Bible? I want to know.’

    And I would insist that it was according to the scriptures, because I do not believe in any extra-scriptural teachings, nor any anti-scriptural teachings, or any sub-scriptural teachings. I think we ought to put the emphasis where God puts it, and continue to put it there, and to expound the scriptures, and stay by the scriptures. I wouldn’t–no matter if I saw a light above the light of the sun, I’d keep my mouth shut about it ’til I’d checked with Daniel and Revelation and the rest of the scriptures to see if it had any basis in truth….I don’t believe in anything that is unscriptural or that is anti-scripture” (A.W. Tozer, “What Difference Does the Holy Spirit Make?”)

    Even so, some object that quoting Tozer to prove he wasn’t a mystic ignored his advice to “get still to wait on God” with the “Bible outspread.” To say that Tozer practiced lectio divina because of this statement is to be driven more by surmise than substance. The full paragraph reads:

    “It is important that we get still to wait on God. And it is best that we get alone, preferably with our Bible outspread before us. Then if we will, we may draw near to God and begin to hear Him speak to us in our hearts. I think for the average person the progression will be something like this: First a sound as of a Presence walking in the garden. Then a voice, more intelligible, but still far from clear. Then the happy moment when the Spirit begins to illuminate the Scriptures, and that which had been only a sound, or at best a voice, now becomes an intelligible word, warm and intimate and clear as the word of a dear friend. Then will come life and light, and best of all, ability to see and rest in and embrace Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord and All.”

    There is a vast difference between Tozer’s teaching and lectio divina. The Lord tells us to “be still” at times. To “be still” is not to empty our minds, as in lectio divina. Reading Scripture without distraction, we trust the Lord to bring illumination, or “understanding.”

    Though Tozer speaks of a “sound as of a Presence walking in the garden,” he means that the Holy Spirit begins to bring understanding (1 Cor:2:11). “Then a voice,” denotes better understanding of a formerly opaque Scripture. Tozer speaks of “an intelligible word” consistently throughout his writing. His focus remains “the Word.” “This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein” (Jos:1:8).

    The Scriptures warn us to fully discern the truth of a matter. Discernment is more than suspicion. We are cautioned in the scriptures against “evil surmising” (1 Tm 6:4), which today might be called “evil suspicion.”

    To establish Tozer as a “Catholic mystic” cannot be done objectively, without exaggeration, and with only selective use of evidence.

    —————
    Dear Paul
    We have addressed this issue in a past newsletter. The Q&A follows.

    Thank you for writing.

    Ed

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul in answer to your #101.

    I do not need you to explain the meaning of the word “promote”. How condescending. I am not offended because you are coming from a position of obvious inability to see the forest because of the trees.

    You are the one who does not understand. You refuse to listen to reason and just keep beating your drum on one note. In your world I guess one can obtain perfection, no blind spots, etc.

    Martin speaks with wisdom – you should take heed to what he has said for your own edification.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    @ Redeemed: Thanks for posting that response to Paul from TBC. I also saw that a couple of days ago and was happy for the truth that was expressed sans hypocrisy.

    I think we need to define the term “wolf” because some are throwing the term around without proper respect to Biblical definition. We don’t label someone a wolf unless they are a predator of sheep. From Paul’s comment #87 he quotes 2 Peter 2:1-3 “And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not..”

    ….and makes it applicable to Dave Hunt when he says, “Listen, most of these men in the world of apologetics/scholars/experts in this or that (Hunt included) have simply found a niche market of gullible men followers to make merchandise of them.”

    All I have to say is that Dave was not a pretend Christian any more that I am. He said what he believed and he believed what he said. His main objective was not making merchandise of the sheep. And I’m finding it difficult to understand what is behind this tangential attack on Dave. It’s beyond constructive criticism..it’s judgemental.

    Now if we were talking about real wolves like Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn who use their prophetic abilities to fleece the sheep we could give evidence that their fruit is apparent. They are wolves preying on the sheep. They live self-indulgent lives. Their doctrine is false. But, I repeat, because Dave Hunt had a few mystical ideas, that does not translate into calling him a wolf.

    We must be careful, for with the same judgement we use on others, we will be judged. I am not perfect. If my life was put under a spotlight, I’d have some “splainin to do. We all would if we are honest. But mercy triumphs over judgement.

    **We can put to rest that Dave is a wolf. He did not deceive the sheep. He did not devour the sheep. He did not use or abuse the sheep.

    Yes, he made mistakes. Yes, he had a business plan. Yes, he paid his support staff. Yes he quoted from mystics who quoted from other mystics. Yes he defended Tozer, as I would defend him because I’ve read positive things about Tozer, not just the negative things…for instance here…
    http://www.thescripturealone.com/Tozer_TheBestOfTozer.pdf He also was not a perfect man, but I would NEVER label him as a wolf.

    Thanks Redeemed and Martin for upholding a true shepherd. Dave will always be ok in my books. And that’s all she wrote…

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs,

    Many of my comments on this discussion that were there yesterday are now lost, including your comment in which you said you contacted TBC about The Power of The Spirit.

    Some of my lost comments were approved and some were pending approval. 5 to 7 comments in total…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    I am so sorry, I messed up. I was messin’ about and did something I should not have done and literally deleted my blog LOL. Fortunately I had a backup, but some comments from yesterday till today are missing. Sorry!!!!!!!

  • [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn #105,

    The Apostle Paul identified two types – Grievous wolves entering in and men speaking perverse things arising from within. In order for both types to be successful, it requires the sheep to disobey the Word of God by trusting men (Jer 17:5), not be Bereans (Acts 17:11), not be wise as serpents (Matt 10:16) which is a command from Jesus Himself.

    Disobedience to the Word of God allows these guys to be successful.

    Acts 20:28-31 – “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.

    29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

    30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse (Greek – to distort, turn aside) things, to draw away disciples after them.

    31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

    Trying to determine purposeful deception is the hard part.

    One of the things we need to remember is we need to step back in time when there was no Internet.

    Back then, the way of gathering information was either you actually had to witness it first hand, see a document, or have some sort of a recording.

    If someone was writing material or saying something that wasn’t right, one may not find out about it until 15 years later. The whole time one may be OK with that person until they found out later. So, someone in our position today with all this “rapid fire” information might be led to believe someone agreed with someone in error when they might have found out about the person later in life.

    Right now the Lord is providing all this information to the church so we can see many things that were hidden, put it all together, analyze it, and see just how bad things are. It’s really bad as we all know.

    I’m not giving Dave Hunt or anyone else a pass by any means. I’m just trying to convey how things were BEFORE the Internet. With all this instant information at our fingertips, it makes it easier to see how the apostate church is where it is.

  • Robbie

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    LOL… Paul and I was up all night sobbing thinking I said something wrong!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    *wipes away Robbies tears* there there… I too was sobbing after I deleted my blog LOL.

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    My response to Paul was also lost. So I will try to reconstruct it.

    Paul claims I called him a liar. I did NOT call him a liar. This is an example of Paul’s habit of DISTORTING the truth. I said he had been fast and loose with the truth. That means that he has used facts to go to the EXTREME.

    I have come to the conclusion that the only thing that will satisfy Paul’s desire to discredit Dave Hunt will be the following declaration and action:

    Dave Hunt is a wolf who has crept in unawares and done great damage to the Body of Christ. Dave Hunt is a closet mystic with a clandestine agenda to promote mysticism in the Church. All his books and works are tainted and must be regarded as dangerous. Debs needs to take down his article on Calvinism if she wants to maintain integrity as a discernment ministry. Dave Hunt should be EXPOSED as a false teacher along with others. Anyone who does not do so is a respecter of persons. Anyone who believes they have been edified by any of Hunt’s works is deceived. Anyone such as myself, Carolyn, and Martin who purport to extend grace to him because of this blind spot have set him up as an idol and are not true lovers of God’s truth. In other words, they are part and party to error. Any further comments from them should be deleted because they cannot be trusted.
    How about that Paul? Would that float your boat?

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    William Saunders wrote:

    Carolyn #105,

    The Apostle Paul identified two types – Grievous wolves entering in and men speaking perverse things arising from within. In order for both types to be successful, it requires the sheep to disobey the Word of God by trusting men (Jer 17:5), not be Bereans (Acts 17:11), not be wise as serpents (Matt 10:16) which is a command from Jesus Himself.

    Disobedience to the Word of God allows these guys to be successful.

    Acts 20:28-31 – “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.

    29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

    30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse (Greek – to distort, turn aside) things, to draw away disciples after them.

    31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

    Trying to determine purposeful deception is the hard part.

    One of the things we need to remember is we need to step back in time when there was no Internet.

    Back then, the way of gathering information was either you actually had to witness it first hand, see a document, or have some sort of a recording.

    If someone was writing material or saying something that wasn’t right, one may not find out about it until 15 years later. The whole time one may be OK with that person until they found out later. So, someone in our position today with all this “rapid fire” information might be led to believe someone agreed with someone in error when they might have found out about the person later in life.

    Right now the Lord is providing all this information to the church so we can see many things that were hidden, put it all together, analyze it, and see just how bad things are. It’s really bad as we all know.

    I’m not giving Dave Hunt or anyone else a pass by any means. I’m just trying to convey how things were BEFORE the Internet. With all this instant information at our fingertips, it makes it easier to see how the apostate church is where it is.

    William, thank you for chiming in. I can predict what Paul’s response will be. We don’t need the internet – we have the Holy Spirit.
    He will still condemn Dave for this oversight. I do agree that information is much more readily available today resulting in further revelation on just how bad a condition the Church is in.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    William, re comment #108 where you said, “Grievous wolves entering in and men speaking perverse things arising from within”. Yes, I agree that there are the two streams of anarchy. And it would seem that we have more to fear from those who are among us speaking perverse things than those wolves who enter from the outside, since we are not suspecting so called Christians to be leading the sheep into wolf territory.

    Funny enough, I have been over on your Ephesians 5:11 website this morning, before reading your comment here. I was following the route taken by Chuck Missler from speaking true things back in the 1980s and 90s to speaking perverse things in the last few years as he joins together with Roman Catholics and the Ecumenical Council for National Policy (CNP)…the sleight of hand tactics would be amusing if it wasn’t so destructive at the same time, like Newt Gingrich’s “deer in the headlights” smirk. I have known about Billy Graham’s ecumenicism but your article(s) have connected some dots for me.

    As far as Roman Catholic’s strategic moves these days….it’s well orchestrated and spiritually connected, as it comes together with a harmony that baffles the human mind. Rome is most certainly a pawn of Satanic genius, one of many, uniting the world into one Political/Religious/Economic entity. Watching the news, the coverage that the Catholic Church is getting defies logic. One is lead to believe that it is the most interesting thing that is going on in the world. To be sure, it would be easy to get sucked into the emotion of the Holy Roman Empire with its pomp and ceremony if it wasn’t for the Light of the Word that continues to tell us that Christ is risen, not still on the cross as Catholicism likes to depict him and that we don’t need any other mediator. Specifically, we don’t need the Catholic Church. Christ is enough!

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I too, like William, see two types of wolves (Acts 20:28-31):
    -The grievous wolves, who are the predators of sheep and fleecers of sheep Carolyn mentions. This would include the Hinns and Copelands of this world. This category is fairly easy to discern for the Berean believer. This category most probably deceive purposefully.
    -The men speaking perverse things, ie distorting the truth, turning aside the truth, mixing truth with error. This category includes sincere seducers who are deceived and are deceiving others.

    But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 2Tim 3:13

    I would argue that most deceivers fall into this category. They do not deceive purposefully. But again as William says, Trying to determine purposeful deception is the hard part.
    The hirelings also fall into this category:

    But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
    The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. John 10:12-13

    Since my comment #40, I had said “I do not question Hunt’s sincerity . He was sincerely deceived. He was deceived and deluded, and went on deceiving.”
    The SINGLE thing that made me call Hunt a deceived deceiver was this quote I read on this page http://www.seekgod.ca/cosmic.htm, after I found out who William Law –> Jakob Boheme was:

    It is very odd that we find occult and New Age expert, Dave Hunt of The Berean Call, promoting William Law’s book, Power in the Spirit. Amidst controversy over writing the Introduction for it, Mr. Hunt took the stand that there were good things in the book.

    So Hunt was confronted with the truth about William Law –> Jakob Boehme in the 46+ years (between at least 1967 when he edited, wrote the intro and published Law’s book, and today) AND he did not turn back but persisted. His last copyright of “The Power of The Spirit” is 2007 according to Marion above. (I believe he is not the author of the latest 2012 copyright of the Kindle edition of the book).
    My point is, if someone is deceiving (teaching error, spreading error, mixing truth with error) AND he is confronted with that error and shown the truth AND the person persists in his error, THEN the person had been deceived in the first place.
    IF Hunt had never been confronted about Law–>Boehme and shown the truth about these men, then maybe I should retract my calling him a deceived deceiver. But I don’t believe that’s the case. I don’t believe as William alludes, that Hunt “might have found out [the truth] about the person [Law–>Boehme] later in life”.

    That is my position, and I think it had been clear all through this discussion. We simply disagree on the definition of a wolf, because I consider a sincere yet deceived deceiver, a wolf.
    Therefore I disagree entirely with the following statement by Redeemed except the statement in bold, if not we might appear to have different standards for different people (unfortunately my comment on this subject, were I raised the case of Prof Johan Malan, got lost):

    Dave Hunt is a wolf who has crept in unawares and done great damage to the Body of Christ. Dave Hunt is a closet mystic with a clandestine agenda to promote mysticism in the Church. All his books and works are tainted and must be regarded as dangerous. Debs needs to take down his article on Calvinism if she wants to maintain integrity as a discernment ministry. Dave Hunt should be EXPOSED as a false teacher along with others [Or at the least WARNED about]. Anyone who does not do so is a respecter of persons. Anyone who believes they have been edified by any of Hunt’s works is deceived. Anyone such as myself, Carolyn, and Martin who purport to extend grace to him because of this blind spot have set him up as an idol and are not true lovers of God’s truth. In other words, they are part and party to error. Any further comments from them should be deleted because they cannot be trusted.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    It seems to me that Redeemed and Carolyn’s reference point in this discussion is the blessings and edification Hunt had been to them.
    My reference point and concern is the damage and damnation Hunt’s fruit might bring to ONE poor trusting sheep who may follow his leading and land into the hands of Law–>Boehme.
    Until two years ago, I could have been that poor trusting sheep. Remember the comment I made in #101, because that’s the type of person I am, and many are like that (and Hunt was like that too, because he discovered Law through Murray and in turn immersed himself into Law. If you don’t believe that, read his intro and pay particular attention to the last sentence):

    If I had read “The power of the Spirit” and trusted Hunt and Murray and Law, I WOULD HAVE SEARCHED FOR THE REAL, UNDILUTED ORIGINAL WORK, the “Address To The Clergy”. And I wouldn’t have stopped there, I would have dug for the other works of Law

    My concern is about the next generation and the future generations. Will we transmit to them the truth unpolluted? What will history remember?
    Today, with the explosion of knowledge thanks to the Internet, you all know how everyday we discover that almost all that we have been taught, that we have inherited, have been lies and lies and lies.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Martin wrote:

    His book “Judgment Day”, dealing with the Middle East, had me near to tears and on the edge of rage, just by the actual facts it related.

    Now, I sincerely believe this quote from Ironside (even if Redeemed will blast me for saying that):

    Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died.

    That is why, despite all the good that is in this book, I will point the following:

    In the second sentence of the very first page of the first chapter, Hunt make the following amazing statement:

    It [The conflict between tiny Israel and the vast coalition of Arab/Muslim nations arrayed against her] is also the major subject of the Bible(emphasis added)

    Really, Dave, really. I’m sorry Redeemed and Carolyn, but I couldn’t let that fly.
    THE MAJOR SUBJECT of the Bible is NOT the conflict between Israel and the Arab/Muslim world.
    THE MAJOR SUBJECT of the Bible IS…

    That man has declared WAR to his Creator God, and had been at WAR with his Creator God since the Fall.
    On the other hand, God wants to make peace with His creature, and for this reason He incarnated Himself in the person of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who came into this world to suffer and bleed and die in the place of sinful man, and who rose again the third day to bring salvation and reconciliation and peace with God to those individuals who believe/trust in Him, both Jew and Gentile [which include the Arab/Muslim world].

    It is indeed THE SUBJECT of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
    It is the subject of the Old Testament and it is the subject of the New Testament. It is the subject of each and every book of the Bible. The Bible has no other subject than that.
    Jesus Christ (The Word) IS THE SUBJECT of the Bible.

    What Dave wrote is the kind of misleading (and I dare say deceptive) statements that simply can’t pass through my throat.
    Imagine a lost unbeliever (Jew or Gentile) who does not know the Bible nor the God of the Bible and who reads Dave’s book and starts off with that statement. His whole perception of the Bible and of what it is about could be forever twisted, skewed.
    When a book starts off like that, I don’t know where it is leading. Many of the readers of this book are/will be unbelievers, scholars, analysts, professors, historians, politicians, and they see Hunt as a trusted source and Authority on the subject.

  • Mom4Truth

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I realize I’m venturing in to a losing side of the conversation on this side of Heaven, but I’m pro-Truth and anti- man worship.

    Jeremiah 17:5 “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.”

    It never fails, no matter the blog, website, or forum, inevitably group-think will dominate and end up ganging up against the one Berean determined to check a self-determined ministry leader against the Word of God. Usually, that ends up being me! This time its Paul. And, it has happened to me many times on this website (one of the strongest examples was when I dared call out Dave Hunt for some of these same issues.)

    After leaving our apostate church, we were totally stuck in the muck and mire of trying to determine true Christians from false Christians. I will readily admit that we were a lot more liberal in our interpretation standards, believing *most* were probably truly saved.

    Oh, how wrong we were. Biblically,*most* are not.

    I understand the grief involved with accepting your trusted leader is actually a wolf, and understand that most will never truly “sell” all of their idolatrous man-worship riches, as prescribed in Matthew 19:21. Sure, Jesus was addressing that man’s worship of materialism, but the principle is the same: give up those idols in your life, whatever they may be, and follow Christ. Most will do just as the man and turn around sad because they can’t fathom getting rid of their particular idol.

    In fact, I came on here a few years ago, warning of Roger Oakland’s wolfish ways and was seriously ridiculed and told to forgive him because he had a head injury. (Not by Debs!) Now, thanks to blogs like Ephesians511, Roger Oakland has been outed in a much larger way. Perhaps now the trend is moving in the direction where one can safely call out Oakland without ridicule?

    The fact is, with or without the approval of the masses, Dave Hunt has enough obvious concerns to warrant Berean checks and avoidance. Besides the points already brought up, Dave Hunt was promoting that “reformed” Muslim guy’s book, where he had supposedly converted to Christianity. What I couldn’t understand was this guy openly boasted about his church which was VERY emergent and how he “loved” his Muslim brothers and sisters, saying something about how we’re all children of the same God. Um, lie? So, I emailed TBC and received no word back. When I came on here to call out Hunt, again I was told that he is old and is probably lacking clarity. To which I replied that there is zero Biblical precedent for old Christians losing their minds, rather their hoary head finds them in deeper wisdom. But, those are just Biblical facts and can’t compete in a world that much higher values man’s opinions.

    Plus, TBC is 501c3 government-yoked-up-red-taped-bound-government-gives-me-the-right-to-exist entity, despite the Lord’s warnings to not be unequally yoked nor to let your left hand know you are giving with your right. The 501c3 bondage marker is the first thing I look for when I’m suggested a link or leader.

    Redeemed, I thought your last comment to Paul, no, no, no, about Paul, in front of others was snarky considering the Scripture does factually tell us it is His Spirit which leads us in all Truth. Do you think Truth was mobile before we assumed a mobile world? It seems to me this verse address this “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” 1 John 2:27

    Discernment truly is a gift of God. It blesses Him to bestow it on some and equally blesses Him to not give understanding unto others. The Lord does bless those not determined to find a man, ministry, book, website, to follow, but rather to seek the old ways of Truth according, not to any worldly customs, but solely to the Word of the Most High God.

    Truly the best summary for today’s professing church is Jeremiah 6:16: “Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.”

    Glad the site is back up, Debs…..

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    DTW is all about the truth and FACTS, and what we have here presented to us in all the comments is a whole lot of facts. I have been watching this thread and analyzing it very closely and paying attention to the facts and not letting myself get EMOTIONAL and take sides. In the beginning it appeared that Paul was shooting from the hip, but as I went to SEARCH for the TRUTH and prayed about this situation the Holy Spirit reminded me of some very important things, and that is this; would we as born again Christians read this book and ignore the Holy Spirit’s WARNING that is it not Godly? Would we keep this book in print knowing that more than 1 person has brought to light the BLATANT occultism in this book? Would we as born again Christians associate with the likes of Chuck Smith and Chuck Missler and Tim Lay Haye and others knowing fully well that these guys are truly and utterly not of God?

    Yes today we have the internet where you just have to type in what you want to know and it pops out for you, years ago people did not have this luxuary, HOWEVER, I have read books where the Holy Spirit (not the internet) has told me, ‘this is not biblical’, ‘this is Catholic’, ‘this is mystical’, ‘this is wrong’, ‘this is occultic’ etc and HE NEVER FAILS to tell me the TRUTH, He does not leave me in the lurch. If not having the internet can be used as an excuse for finding out the truth, then by golly everyone prior to the WWW has an excuse when they get to heaven and stand before God.

    —————

    I emailed The Berean Call with the following email:

    —————
    From: Discerning the World
    Sent: 15 February 2013 12:05 PM
    To: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: Dave Hunt – The Power of the Spirit Controversy

    Dear T.A.,

    I hope you can help me with this.

    I posted one of Dave’s articles on Calvinism and the Catholic connection on my blog. I have always respected Dave and appreciated his work.

    To my surprise, it triggered an attack on Dave based on his book The Power of the Spirit, basically a paraphrase of William Law’s book. The person expressed concern that Law was an associate of Jacob Boehme who was a mystic. I have researched Boehme and found him concerning as well as some of Law’s works that are posted online.

    Since I cannot contact Dave, I have no way to answer these charges. I think it is blatantly unfair for the person to discredit Dave’s whole body of work and trash his reputation based on one book Dave wrote long ago. The critic pointed out that the book is still available on TBC but it is certainly not promoted. I have not been able to find the book online to peruse it and since I reside abroad it is not practical to order it. I have researched Boehme and the charges about him appear legit. I have read some of Law’s works online honestly find them somewhat troubling.

    I believe that all of us have blind spots and Dave would no doubt agree that he is no exception. He has always defended the truth in his writings and was extremely courageous in exposing Calvinism and has taken a ton of heat for doing so.

    This critic is quite relentless in his attacks and I must find a way to deal with him and diffuse his accusations. There may be an element of truth in them, but they certainly don’t warrant the attention this person is giving to them, saying Dave is a wolf and a purveyor of mysticism. This is a distraction away from the main topic of exposing Calvinism and I don’t want to be a party to anyone trashing Dave’s reputation and legacy he has left in his many valuable books.

    If you could shed any light on this, I would greatly appreciate it.

    Respectfully,

    Deborah
    (www.discerningtheworld.com)
    —————

    I waited for a long time for a reply and then contacted someone in the USA who contacted T.A, regarding the email in order to receive a reply. I finally received a reply last night.

    —————

    From: TA McMahon [xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
    Sent: 01 March 2013 03:52 AM
    To: Discerning the World
    Cc: Sally Oppliger
    Subject: Re: FW: Dave Hunt – The Power of the Spirit Controversy

    Deborah–First of all, there is little hope of putting out fires when it comes to Calvinists who are igniting and fanning them. Dave’s book What Love Is This? has had them upset for years. Their hostility is usually manifested without biblical substance and mostly features ad hominem assaults. The “guilty by association” is a common ploy, and is usually accompanied by smoke and mirrors arguments. They don’t seem to be bothered by the historic and contemporary “association” Calvinists have with the father of the many dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church, Augustine. Sadly, there is no reasoning with such folks.

    Nevertheless, here is my response to those who take issue with Dave. Produce anything he has written or recorded that is contrary to the Scriptures and we will consider it and make corrections where they are necessary.

    We would say the same for The Power of the Spirit, which we continue to offer. Chapter two of that book seems to be addressing those who are upset with Dave, so their objection doesn’t surprise me.

    In Christ’s love and service, Tom

    —————-

  • [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    TA McMahon stated “The “guilty by association” is a common ploy”

    I would like to chime in on the apostate church using the “guilty by association” term as something that is somehow Biblically invalid.

    Ephesians 5:11 – “have no fellowship” means “NO GUILT BY ASSOCIATION”

    Romans 16:17 – “avoid them”

    1 Corinthians 5:11 – “not to keep company” , “with such a one no not to eat”

    2 Corinthians 6:17 – “be ye separate”

    1 Timothy 5:22 – “neither be partaker of other men:s sins: keep thyself pure”

    TA McMahon’s use of the “guilty by association” term as some sort of an un-Biblical idea is one of the cancers that has metastasized among the apostate church “leadership” and spread throughout.

    “Guilt by association” is the very foundation of ECUMENISM. “Guilt by association” has to happen in order for ECUMENISM to happen. Satan wants the church to very much have “guilt by association”, especially when he wants to be worshiped in Revelation.

    Also, TA McMahon just met with Tim LaHaye two moths ago at the Pre-Trib rapture center –

    http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/21th-Annual-Prophecy-Brochure.pdf

    We already know the Tim LaHaye/Sun Myung Moon “association”, in fact I just did an article on that last week –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2013/02/sun-myung-moon-lahayes-chuck-missler.html

    If you go to TA McMahon’s “Berean Call” website RIGHT NOW you can find stuff speaking out against Sun Myung Moon AND Tim LaHaye, however TA McMahon has no problem showing up at Tim LaHaye’s (founder) Pre-Trib Center event. Why?

    In TA McMahon’s mind “guilt by association” doesn’t matter!!

    I did an article back in October on TA McMahon –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-bad-fruit-of-hypocrisy-with-tom.html

    When we just confronted Doug Hamp planning an event with Randy DeMain (Kabbalah witchcraft tuning fork), Doug Hamp used the same “guilt by association” idea, as if it isn’t Biblical.

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2013/02/chosen-darkness-pikes-peak-prophecy.html

    TA McMahon is probably the worst person to come to Dave Hunt’s defense. Thank-you for post that email, it was classic.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    Here is a question for you, one that I can’t answer, maybe you can… how different is Dave Hunts version of The Power of the Spirit compared to Laws version? Is it word for word? Or did Dave Hunt take the general ‘address’ and re-write it?

    Can you quote from The Power of the Spirit things unbiblical?

    T.A has a very good point, has Dave written anything contrary to scripture? I do not know of anything that he has.

    Ok, as I mentioned above the ‘associations’ with the Misslers of this world does disturb me… there appears to be a cancer (as William stated) that ministers can’t seem to find anything wrong with fraternizing with evil men. They speak the truth on one hand but on the other hand they DO the exact opposite. Like Prof Johan Malan, has one article speaking out against Calvinism but finds himself a happy camper and bestest friends amoung Calvinists (fortheloveofhistruth.com).

  • [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    The “associations” with people that claim to be brethren tied to unfruitful works of darkness like Tim LaHaye is how Satan is confusing unbelievers.

    The “non-Catholic” people claiming to be brethren who “associate” with other people claiming to be brethren tied to unfruitful works of darkness are ecumenical with each other. Ecumenism with the unfruitful works of darkness.

    They have created a god in their own image that isn’t the Word of God by their own disobedience.

    They have just “scissored out” the five scriptures I gave above from WHAT they believe THEY need to OBEY and turned it around to mock our Lord by saying “guilt by association” is not Biblical.

    In their minds, they don’t need to OBEY Ephesians 5:11, Romans 16:17, 1 Corinthians 5:11, 2 Corinthians 6:17, or 1 Timothy 5:22 in order to properly reflect the Lord in their lives to others. They just toss out the scriptures that might make things uncomfortable for them if they DO OBEY them. In their minds, those scripture don’t exist.

    Jesus is The Word Of God (Revelation 19:13), every jot, every tittle.

    If The Word Of God is Ephesians 5:11, Romans 16:17, 1 Corinthians 5:11, 2 Corinthians 6:17, or 1 Timothy 5:22 and we PRETEND they aren’t there and thus refuse to OBEY The Word Of God, that means we have just created a god in our own image, it’s “another Jesus” being portrayed to the unbelieving world.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Carolyn asked:
    >>Myself, I find Tozer reflective and inspirational…. Show me where he says something Anti-Christian

    Eli wrote:
    >>Tozer may have referenced a catholic here and there, but I have read many of his writings and he was sound. His book The Pursuit of God (in the last chapter, you can find it on PDF) he even puts down the catholic church.

    I started giving both of you an answer in #98. Below is a sequel to that comment:
    ————
    Tozer’s Recommended Reading List (and others)

    A year after Tozer’s death in 1963, David Fant, a close friend and associate, published a biographical memoir. On the last page Fant placed the following list of thirty-five books recommended by Dr. Tozer, “For those who would know ‘the deep things of God.’

    1 The Adornment of the Spiritual Marriage by Jan van Ruysbroeck
    2 The Amending of Life by H. L. Hubbard
    3 Ascent of Mt. Carmel by St. John
    4 The Ascent of Mount Sion Being the Third Book of the Treatise of That Name Translated with an Introduction and Notes By E. Allison Peers by Bernardino and E. Allison Peers De Laredo
    5 A Little Book of Eternal Wisdom by Blessed Henry Suso
    6 Centuries of Meditations by Thomas Traherne
    7 Christian Perfection (Christian Classics) by François de Salignac de La Mothe- Fénelon
    8 The Cloud of Unknowing by Anonymous
    9 Confessions by Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo
    10 Dark Night of the Soul: A Masterpiece in the Literature of Mysticism by St. John of the Cross by Saint John of the Cross
    11 Goad of Love by Walter Hilton
    12 A Guide to True Peace; or The Excellency of Inward and Spiritual Prayer by Guyon, Molinos and Others Fenelon
    13 Hymns of Ter Steegen and others classed as “Friends of God.” by Gerhard Tersteegen
    14 The Imitation of Christ (Dover Thrift Editions) by Thomas à Kempis
    15 Introduction to the Devout Life by Saint Francis de Sales
    16 Letters of Direction: Thoughts on the Spiritual Life by Henri de Tourville
    17 On The Incarnation by Saint Athanasius Patriarch of Alexandria
    18 Saint Bernard on the Love of God by of Clairvaux Bernard
    19 Poems by Frederick William Faber
    20 The Poems of Isaac Watts by Isaac Watts
    21 The Practice of the Presence of God and The Spiritual Maxims by Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection
    22 Lancelot Andrewes and His Private Devotions by Lancelot Andrewes
    23 Works of St. Anselm: Proslogium, Monologium, An Appendix in Behalf of the Fool, and Cur Deus Homo (Forgotten Books)
    24 The Quiet Way: A Christian Path to Inner Peace (Spritiual Classics) by Gerhard Tersteegen
    25 Revelations of Divine Love (Dover Value Editions) by Julian of Norwich
    26 The Scale of Perfection (Middle English Texts) by Walter Hilton
    27 Johannes Tauler: Sermons (Classics of Western Spirituality) by Johannes Tauler
    28 On the Song of Songs I (The Works of Bernard of Clairvaux, Volume Two) (Cistercian Fathers Series, Number Four) by Saint Bernard of Clairvaux

    29 The Spiritual Combat and a Treatise on Peace of Soul (Tan Classics) by Dom Lorenzo Scupoli
    30 The Spiritual Guide (Library of Spiritual Classics) by Michael Molinos
    31 The Complete Mystical Works of Meister Eckhart by Meister Eckhart
    32 A Testament of Devotion by Thomas R. Kelly
    33 Theologia Germanica by Susanna, translated Winkworth
    34 The Vision of God by Nicholas of Cusa
    35 Jacob Boehme: The Way to Christ (Classics of Western Spirituality) by Jakob Böhme
    ———-
    I would be hard to find another aggregation of Roman Catholic mystics that beats Tozer’s list. Notice the #35 Jakob Boehme, who is Hunt–>Murray–>Law’s guy.

    I have Fant’s biographical memoir in my library, with Tozer’s Recommended Reading List of 35 Mystics.

    Tozer was a deceived deceiver, a hireling who delivered the sheep to the who is who of RC mysticism –> To Rome.

    Remember that quote from the Benedictine Novice Carolyn gave:

    If Catholicism is truly apostate, as Hunt shouts from the rooftops, then how can the Catholic mystics be reliable guides in the spiritual life?
    We must say to Dave Hunt, as to all anti-Catholic Protestants: If the springs of Catholic tradition are as poisoned as you say, why do you drink from them when you need to slake your spiritual thirst?

    That is the question I cannot answer, except these men are telling all of us former Roman Catholics (I am one) that we made a mistake, indeed that the whole Protestant Reformation was a big mistake. Note: I am not a “Protestant”, simply a Bible believing born again Christian, but I understand some people label all non-Roman Catholics as “Protestants”.

    (Note: this is one of my comments that got lost the other day)

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs wrote:
    >>T.A has a very good point, has Dave written anything contrary to scripture? I do not know of anything that he has.

    Start by sending him my comment #117 on his book “Judgment Day”, unless you find that opening statement of the book scriptural. I have the book, and there are other things, but this seems to be a lost battle for me as mom4truth rightly pointed, so there might be no use going further.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Martin wrote:

    Hunt has been unfairly criticized for not being tough enough on Catholics or Calvinists. This is because he has kept a door open to them. That is not the same thing as failing to contend for the faith once delivered [Jude 3] which Dave’s writings shows he does fearlessly. He keeps the door open so that debate is always there

    I would argue that not only did Hunt keep an open door to them, but he befriended them, he commended some of them and considered many of them to be his brothers and sisters in Christ. This is all documented.

    Now, is it not for the same reasons Prof Johan Malan has been (rightly) exposed on this blog, and the rhetorical question “Is Prof Johan Malan an undercover Calvinist” asked? For befriending Calvinists and being double faced about Calvinism?
    The same thing goes to a certain degree and for similar reasons for someone like Oakland and some others.
    Why do we not consider those things as their little “blind spot” which is negligible compared to their vast body of “good works” they have done for the cause of the Cross?
    I’m just wondering why the difference of treatment? Is there not an appearance of being respecter of some persons, of not judging righteous judgments?
    I believe if Prof Malan would come across this discussion he might ask himself the same question? Note: I am in no wise defending or trying to justify Prof Malan nor anyone else. Just asking.

    (Note: this is a rephrasing of one of my comment that got lost)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    Start by sending him my comment #117 on his book “Judgment Day”, unless you find that opening statement of the book scriptural. I have the book, and there are other things, but this seems to be a lost battle for me as mom4truth rightly pointed, so there might be no use going further.

    Based on previous quotes that you missunderstood, I wont read anything into this Judgement Day opening statement, as Israel and the Arab conflict do play a major part in the end times and it is a big part of the bible. I would like to read more of that opening statement, not just one tiny little line to get a clearer picture of what Hunt is saying as an opening statement to his book on the END TIMES.

    Don’t run away now… I want quotes and quote him properly, not just one little liner that can be misconstrued if you want to misconstrue it. Come now, you started this, lets finish it off.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs wrote:
    >>Can you quote from The Power of the Spirit things unbiblical?

    I have explaining in #58 from Scripture (Gen 3:22) that before the Fall Adam had the perfection of Innocence, but he was by no means Divine. He did NOT have the Holy Spirit. He was not indwelt by Divinity. Neither the Father, nor the Son (the Tree of Life) nor the Holy Spirit. God did NOT breathe the Holy Spirit into Adam at his creation.

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Thos who add “The Holy Ghost” between the words “breathed” and “into” are inspired by Satan.
    Yet, that was the foundation of Law’s occultic and New Age theology.

    If pre-fall Adam, who was absolutely perfect, was at the same time indwelt by the Triune God, then he was Divine, God incarnate.
    IS THAT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND? ME THINKS NOT!

    After reading that, John C (#82) has still not understood, is still arguing that the question of the Divinity of pre-fall Adam is debatable, that Scripture is not clear about that. Honestly, that leaves me speechless.
    John, you ask me “why is it a damnable heresy?” The damnable heresy is not that Adam had the Perfection of innocence. The damnable heresy is that IN ADDITION TO BEING PERFECT, HE WAS DIVINE.
    Because if it is the case, then all men are born with that see of divine life dormant in them, since we are descendants of Adam, after his image and likeness.

    My friend, that is the basis of all New Age teachings, many occultic teachings, of Mormonism, the NOLR, the MSoG, the NAR,… Namely, that man has the seed of divinity dormant in him (was put to sleep so to speak by Adam’s disobedience) that just needs to be awakened from WITHIN. This is exactly what Law teaches (#39) and that Murray and Hunt repeat.
    If you do not get this, I pray you will understand. I’m sure Debs understands, and I don’t need to go at length to expound on this.

    Another implication is that the incarnation of God SINNED. Which is impossible. First of all, Jesus Christ is the ONLY God Incarnate, the only begotten son of God, both Perfect and Divine, from eternity to eternity.

    Now Debs,
    Let’s read the second paragraph of chapter one of Hunt’s “The Power of the Spirit” (I already quoted it partially in #73)

    THE SPIRIT OF THE TRIUNE GOD, BREATHED INTO ADAM AT HIS CREATION [Hunt says the Holy Spirit was breathed into Adam, which is a Satanic lie. Read Gen 2:7], was that alone which made him a HOLY CREATURE in the image and likeness of God. A new birth of this Spirit of God in man is as necessary to make fallen alive again unto God as it was to make Adam at first in the image and likeness of God [Hunt repeats that Adam was born of the Spirit of God]. And a constant flow of this divine life by the Spirit is as necessary to man’s continuance in his redeemed state as light and moisture are to the continued life of a plant. A religion that is not wholly built upon this supernatural ground, but which stands to any degree upon human powers, reasonings, and conclusions, has not so much as the shadow of truth in it. Such religion leaves man with mere empty forms and images that can no more RESTORE DIVINE LIFE TO HIS SOUL [one can only restore that which was there in the first place, so again Hunt says all men, unregenerate fallen men, had divine life in their soul to begin with] than an idol of clay or wood could create another Adam.

    In the fourth paragraph, Hunt writes:

    Man’s SALVATION can therefore only be effected by a reconciling UNION OF HIS SPIRIT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE CREATOR. [Hunt talks about union with God, a dangerous occult teaching, and note that Jesus Christ is out of the picture]

    These excerpts are from the free sample of the Kindle edition on Amazon. You can read on till the end of the free sample and there is more unscriptural teaching in this free sample, but let me stop here for now.
    If you are still not convinced, I will purchase the Kindle edition and dig more. This cannot be surprising, since Hunt is paraphrasing Law’s writings.
    By the way, Hunt’s edition is not only from “The Address to the Clergy”, but from many other writings of Law. The last sentence of his intro reads:

    Although this present volume is taken primarily from Andrew Murray’s (whom Hunt calls “Perhaps my favorite Christian writer”) edition of “The Power of the Spirit”, I have drawn also upon SEVERAL of Law’s other books, including “A Serious Call”, as well as a NUMBER of his private letters, WEAVING TOGETHER appropriate thoughts from his MAJOR WORKS to enrich them for the present reader.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    I am sorry for asking you to repeat yourself, I have had a very bad few weeks and missed a lot, ie I have not been reading all the comments – only now have I started to get back into the swing of things.

    Yes, those quotes are very troubling…

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs,

    This is the FULL opening statement(1st paragraph) of “Judgement Day” so that I will not be accused of quoting out of context and misunderstanding and/or misleading.
    I am quoting from a free pdf excerpt I found on the Internet AFTER my post. The quote of my was all typed from the book I have, so I did not have time to type the whole thing.

    The conflict between tiny Israel and the vast coalition of
    Arab/Muslim nations arrayed against her is without question the
    most dangerous situation facing the world today. It is also the major
    subject of the Bible,
    in which are recorded in detail, two thousand
    to three thousand years before they occurred, the events leading to
    today’s Middle East debacle. Furthermore (a fact to which political
    and religious world leaders surprisingly pay little attention),
    the Bible not only foretold the tragedy in detail but declared its
    outcome. The consequences of this fact are logical and obvious: if
    the Bible is in error concerning Israel, its major subject, then all
    of the synagogues and Christian churches that claim to base their
    beliefs upon those Scriptures ought to admit that fact and shut their
    doors. If, however, the Bible is true, then the nations of the world
    ought to govern their conduct accordingly; for if they do not, the
    consequences will be disastrous. The following pages throw out this
    challenge to the world.

    I can honestly say that the second sentence can be broken into two like the following, without changing the thought of the author :

    It [The conflict between tiny Israel and the vast coalition of
    Arab/Muslim nations arrayed against her] is also the major subject of the Bible. [In the said Bible] are recorded in detail, two thousand
    to three thousand years before they occurred, the events leading to
    today’s Middle East debacle.

    Thus my quotation of this first part in #117. If you find that I twisted Hunt’s thought or misunderstood it, then my apologies. I’m just trying to present facts with no twisting, and I always provide my sources so the reader can check for himself.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    >> It [The conflict between tiny Israel and the vast coalition of
    Arab/Muslim nations arrayed against her] is also the major subject of the Bible. [In the said Bible] are recorded in detail, two thousand
    to three thousand years before they occurred, the events leading to
    today’s Middle East debacle.

    Nope, I am sorry to say but I do not see it that way… the subject of conflict of Israel and Arab is ALSO a major subject of the bible. Take note the word ALSO. You mis-understand what is being written.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    Can you tell me what pages those following quotes are on:

    “THE SPIRIT OF THE TRIUNE GOD, BREATHED INTO ADAM AT HIS CREATION [Hunt says the Holy Spirit was breathed into Adam, which is a Satanic lie. Read Gen 2:7], was that alone which made him a HOLY CREATURE in the image and likeness of God. A new birth of this Spirit of God in man is as necessary to make fallen alive again unto God as it was to make Adam at first in the image and likeness of God [Hunt repeats that Adam was born of the Spirit of God]. And a constant flow of this divine life by the Spirit is as necessary to man’s continuance in his redeemed state as light and moisture are to the continued life of a plant. A religion that is not wholly built upon this supernatural ground, but which stands to any degree upon human powers, reasonings, and conclusions, has not so much as the shadow of truth in it. Such religion leaves man with mere empty forms and images that can no more RESTORE DIVINE LIFE TO HIS SOUL [one can only restore that which was there in the first place, so again Hunt says all men, unregenerate fallen men, had divine life in their soul to begin with] than an idol of clay or wood could create another Adam.”

    and

    Although this present volume is taken primarily from Andrew Murray’s (whom Hunt calls “Perhaps my favorite Christian writer”) edition of “The Power of the Spirit”, I have drawn also upon SEVERAL of Law’s other books, including “A Serious Call”, as well as a NUMBER of his private letters, WEAVING TOGETHER appropriate thoughts from his MAJOR WORKS to enrich them for the present reader.

    I will email TBC and ask them to review this in the book and tell me why the book is still being published even after people have complained about it. But first I need the page numbers..

    ————-

    This is an investigation in progress. I am on no ones side. I am like Switzerland.

    ————

    Tell me Paul, are you willing to dismiss all Dave Hunts work including the incredible book ‘What is this love’ because of a book that was written 50 something years ago.
    It would appear to me that no one at TBC has actually bothered to review this book after all this time to check to see if it’s REALLY ok (based on the amount of knowledge we have today that is available through the internet).
    Dave Hunt has been UNREACHABLE for many many years now, in a old age home. TBC is run by other people.
    Is is possible that the Reviews on the back of the books had NOTHING to do with Dave Hunt, but others at TBC?
    Is it possible that Dave Hunt was swindled by the Misslers of this world just as I have been swindled by people and after YEARS of thinking they were ok, to find out they were not. And then you sit with all their information plastered all over your blog, or you sit with a untold numbers of copies of books with their names on the back?

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Mom4Truth – don’t despair. We are not on a side that wins or loses. We are learning. It always surprises me how much I don’t know. Before this discussion, I didn’t think there was much more to know about Dave Hunt but in fact, there has been some new information, which we are in the process of processing. I have said, if someone can produce facts that would prove my current thinking wrong, I can handle it. I don’t have to be right. I still think Dave Hunt was a good man but if he was wrong on some important issue, I am willing to say “he was wrong”…

    Paul..Tozer’s Recommended Reading List…I find damning, not inspirational….I’m eating my words as I speak….

    William…”Guilt by association”……your point is made. I agree with it.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs, Re #133

    The whole difference here is the use of the definitive article THE which indicate uniqueness or the most outstanding or prominent, versus A.

    you see, in your #133 you wrote “the subject of conflict of Israel and Arabs is also a major subject of the Bible” (that I totally agree with) versus Hunt’s “the subject of conflict of Israel and Arabs is also the major subject of the Bible”.

    Also note that Hunt repeats the same deceptive statement in the same paragraph. Further down we read:
    “if the Bible is in error concerning Israel, its major subject, then…”
    Here again he says Israel is THE major subject of the Bible. For me, that’s a lie.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs, re #134
    I posted this link to Amazon’s free preview of the kindle edition of Hunt’s “The Power of The Spirit” in #25 (that is almost a month ago):
    http://www.amazon.com/Power-Spirit-William-Law/dp/0875088228#reader_B008B93QEE.
    I do hope someone actually consulted it to verify what I wrote in several comments.

    The kindle edition does not have page numbers. when you paste this link, click on the big image of the book at the left where you see “click to look inside”. In the preview that opens, scroll down to the Intro.
    The last sentence of the intro reads:

    Although this present volume is taken primarily from Andrew Murray’s [whom Hunt calls “Perhaps my favorite Christian writer” a few paragraphs above] edition of “The Power of the Spirit”, I have drawn also upon SEVERAL of Law’s other books, including “A Serious Call”, as well as a NUMBER of his private letters, WEAVING TOGETHER appropriate thoughts from his MAJOR WORKS to enrich them for the present reader. (emphasis added)

    Continue down to chapter One “The Indwelling Spirit of God essential to salvation”(see my comment #52). The second paragraph reads :

    “THE SPIRIT OF THE TRIUNE GOD, BREATHED INTO ADAM AT HIS CREATION [Hunt says the Holy Spirit was breathed into Adam, which is a Satanic lie. Read Gen 2:7], was that alone which made him a HOLY CREATURE in the image and likeness of God. A new birth of this Spirit of God in man is as necessary to make fallen alive again unto God as it was to make Adam at first in the image and likeness of God [Hunt repeats that Adam was born of the Spirit of God]. And a constant flow of this divine life by the Spirit is as necessary to man’s continuance in his redeemed state as light and moisture are to the continued life of a plant. A religion that is not wholly built upon this supernatural ground, but which stands to any degree upon human powers, reasonings, and conclusions, has not so much as the shadow of truth in it. Such religion leaves man with mere empty forms and images that can no more RESTORE DIVINE LIFE TO HIS SOUL [one can only restore that which was there in the first place, so again Hunt says all men, unregenerate fallen men, had divine life in their soul to begin with] than an idol of clay or wood could create another Adam.”(emphasis added)

    The fourth paragraph begins with:

    Man’s fall from his first state brought a separation from God and thus from the life, light and virtue which is in Him. Man’s SALVATION can therefore only be effected by a reconciling UNION OF HIS SPIRIT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE CREATOR. [Hunt talks about union with God, a dangerous occult teaching, and note that Jesus Christ is out of the picture] (emphasis added)

    If you haven’t read the whole free preview yet, I encourage you to read all of it.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs, Re #133.
    You says “take note of the word ALSO”

    My understanding (and I believe is a correct one) of the use of the word ALSO is that it refers to the following 2 assertions about “The conflict between tiny Israel and the vast coalition of Arab/Muslim nations arrayed against her”:
    1) That it is without question the most dangerous situation facing the world today
    and ALSO
    2) THE major subject of the Bible

    Just like I could say:
    1) South Africa is the southernmost country of the African continent
    and is ALSO
    2) The most developed country of Africa.

    Methinks I am not misunderstanding.

    Do you want me to continue?

    Go on page 7 of “Judgment Day”, second paragraph.
    Hunt writes again: “INDISPUTABLY, ISRAEL IS THE MAJOR TOPIC OF BIBLICAL PROPHECY” (emphasis added)
    This is the third time in the first 3 pages of the book that Dave is making this assertion.

    I respectfully disagree Dave. This is a lie.

    Jesus Christ is THE major topic of Biblical prophecy.

    John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph

    Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of ALL his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

    Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

    Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning JESUS, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the PROPHETS, from morning till evening.

    I beg the question? What Bible is Dave reading?

    Shall I continue?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    >> Also note that Hunt repeats the same deceptive statement in the same paragraph. Further down we read:
    “if the Bible is in error concerning Israel, its major subject, then…”
    Here again he says Israel is THE major subject of the Bible. For me, that’s a lie.

    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, wow, so you do not believe that since the beginning of time till now ISRAEL has not been a major topic of the bible?

    Tell me Paul what do you think about the current situation between Israel and Palestine at the moment? And YES I want you to answer this question very thoroughly!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    Israel IS a major subject of BIBLE PROPHECY! From Genesis to Revelation the Jews have been in every verse of the bible OT and NT.

    I beg the question, what Bible are you reading? The Book is about the End times and Judgement Day, this is what Dave Hunt is writing about in his book. Seriously, I am not taking you seriously right not on this issue.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Email to The Berean Call:

    ———

    From: Discerning the World
    Sent: 03 March 2013 10:03 AM
    To: xxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: RE: FW: Dave Hunt – The Power of the Spirit Controversy

    Dear Tom

    Unfortunately the people who are complaining are not Calvinists.

    You said, “Produce anything he has written or recorded that is contrary to the Scriptures and we will consider it and make corrections where they are necessary.”

    Here is a comment by one person named Paul, he mentions 2 quotes from The Power of the Spirit that I and many others find very troubling. Pauls comments in-between the quotes that I have highlighted in yellow.

    ————————
    Paul (Continue in His Word) says:

    I posted this link to Amazon’s free preview of the kindle edition of Hunt’s “The Power of The Spirit” here http://www.amazon.com/Power-Spirit-William-Law/dp/0875088228#reader_B008B93QEE.
    I do hope someone actually consulted it to verify what I wrote in several comments.

    The kindle edition does not have page numbers. when you paste this link, click on the big image of the book at the left where you see “click to look inside”. In the preview that opens, scroll down to the Intro.

    These excerpts are from the free sample of the Kindle edition on Amazon. You can read on till the end of the free sample and there is more unscriptural teaching in this free sample, but let me stop here for now. If you are still not convinced, I will purchase the Kindle edition and dig more. This cannot be surprising, since Hunt is paraphrasing Law’s writings. By the way, Hunt’s edition is not only from “The Address to the Clergy”, but from many other writings of Law. The last sentence of his intro reads:

    Continue down to chapter One “The Indwelling Spirit of God essential to salvation”. The second paragraph reads :

    “THE SPIRIT OF THE TRIUNE GOD, BREATHED INTO ADAM AT HIS CREATION [Hunt says the Holy Spirit was breathed into Adam, which is a Satanic lie. Read Gen 2:7], was that alone which made him a HOLY CREATURE in the image and likeness of God. A new birth of this Spirit of God in man is as necessary to make fallen alive again unto God as it was to make Adam at first in the image and likeness of God [Hunt repeats that Adam was born of the Spirit of God]. And a constant flow of this divine life by the Spirit is as necessary to man’s continuance in his redeemed state as light and moisture are to the continued life of a plant. A religion that is not wholly built upon this supernatural ground, but which stands to any degree upon human powers, reasonings, and conclusions, has not so much as the shadow of truth in it. Such religion leaves man with mere empty forms and images that can no more RESTORE DIVINE LIFE TO HIS SOUL [one can only restore that which was there in the first place, so again Hunt says all men, unregenerate fallen men, had divine life in their soul to begin with] than an idol of clay or wood could create another Adam.”

    In the fourth paragraph, Hunt writes:

    “Man’s SALVATION can therefore only be effected by a reconciling UNION OF HIS SPIRIT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE CREATOR” [Hunt talks about union with God, a dangerous occult teaching, and note that Jesus Christ is out of the picture]

    The last sentence of the intro reads:

    Although this present volume is taken primarily from Andrew Murray’s [whom Hunt calls “Perhaps my favorite Christian writer” a few paragraphs above] edition of “The Power of the Spirit”, I have drawn also upon SEVERAL of Law’s other books, including “A Serious Call”, as well as a NUMBER of his private letters, WEAVING TOGETHER appropriate thoughts from his MAJOR WORKS to enrich them for the present reader. (emphasis added)

    ————————–

    Tom, can you please look into this, from what I gather these are just 2 quotes from the book that are troubling, there are apparently many more.

    Can you please come back to me to let me know your findings.

    Kind Regards
    Deborah

    ———

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

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    Debs,
    re #145 and #146

    Debs,
    You already said in #133 that
    >>“the subject of conflict of Israel and Arabs is also a major subject of the Bible”
    to which I said in #144 that I totally agree with you. I said in #144 that my concern was with Dave using emphatically the definitive article THE.

    Again in #145 you write:
    >>Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, wow, so you do not believe that since the beginning of time till now ISRAEL has not been A major topic of the bible? (notice that you repeatedly use “A” and not “THE”, and I know you will never say that)

    Let me say it again(#144): I agree with you a billion times that “since the beginning of time till now ISRAEL has been A major topic of the bible”
    But I disagree with Dave a billion times that :
    -“the conflict between Israel and the Arabs/Muslims is THE major subject of the Bible” or that
    -“Israel is THE major subject of the Bible” or that
    -“INDISPUTABLY, ISRAEL IS THE MAJOR TOPIC OF BIBLICAL PROPHECY”

    Again in #146 you write:
    >>Israel IS A major subject of BIBLE PROPHECY! (notice that you repeatedly use “A” and not “THE”, and I know you will never say that)

    Let me say it again: I agree with you a billion times that “Israel IS A major subject of BIBLE PROPHECY”, but I will never agree with anyone who says Israel is THE major subject of Bible prophecy.

    There are other things I have found (I’m not finished reading) in “Judgement Day” but at this point I think I am being looked at straining at gnats, so I better stop here.

  • Truthful Conversation

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    I am not posting a long comment or getting into all the details, but having followed the comments on here as they have been posted, I have to say I am with Mom4Truth on this one. You can’t excuse one person over another. I think she summed it all up very well. And I am going to have to agree with Paul on the subject of the Bible.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

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    Paul

    Paul I can see that you are on a Dave Hunt Witch Hunt and you are straining at gnats. Dave Hunt clearly used the world ALSO in the quote you provided. You are being totally unreasonable!!!

  • Carolyn

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    1 Corinthians 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)
    11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
    12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
    13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

    I was just thinking…today Paul the Apostle might use the names Dave Hunt, McArthur, Piper or Rick Warren….Are we following someone’s ideology?

    Before that it might have been Spurgeon, Calvin, Martin Luther, Augustine…Whose ideology are we following?

    When do we cross the line from reading a man’s literature to following his ideology because there’s a big difference.

    Again…the Catholic Church followed Augustinian ideology, assumption of Mary, etc…Calvin followed Augustine’s ideology and Calvinists follow Calvin’s ideology. Follow the money….literally….in Evangelicalism, Christian Television, Global Missions, Government Programs, UN sponsored Charity and Interfaith Alliances, in Humanitarian Aid…it’s all about the money…the end justifies the means, or does it?

    In the field of Discernment Apologetics, there is always the possibility that you will start out getting information and cross over into getting ideology such as happens in many circles today.

    Same with End Times specialty Ministries such as Prophecy in the News, Church of God, Seventh Day Adventism…although they start out with teaching on Eschatology, eventually one crosses over into their ideology.

    No wonder Paul said, 1 Corinthians 2:
    2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
    2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    TC…I agree. As applies for any other Bible teacher, apologist or discernment blogger, we must not follow the man. Read his material, check it against Scripture. Don’t follow the money, don’t follow the topic, don’t follow the ideology, don’t follow a denomination or a saint or a popular personality, a passion, a promise of power, or a church. Follow Christ.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

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    Debs,
    I am not on a witch hunt after anybody.
    Rather, you and I are on a “truth hunt” so to speak. You and I are contending for the faith once delivered to the saints. The author of the book is actually of little importance here. I would have said the same thing no matter who the author would have been. Tomorrow another deceiver will write the same things or similar things. Again, my responsibility (and yours) will be to expose it.
    This is a sequel of #144, to prove from Scripture that Jesus Christ is indeed THE major topic of Biblical prophecy.
    This is the third time I am posting this sequel, and it is still not appearing on the blog (don’t know what’s happening LOL)
    —————
    Israel is A major topic of Biblical prophecy (I agree with that a billion times as already stated in #142).
    But Israel is not THE major one. To affirm that, not only once but already 3 times in the first 3 pages of a book that deal with end-times Biblical prophecy, is IMHO deceitful and unscriptural.
    Actually, ALL Biblical prophecies point to Jesus Christ.
    Does Dave need to make deceitful statements in order to make his case? Methinks he does not need to.

    Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Matt 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
    Matt 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
    Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
    Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David [this refers to Jesus Christ];
    Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

    Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
    Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

    Acts 10:43 To him [Jesus Christ] give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not [Jesus Christ], nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them [the voices of the prophets] in condemning him.
    Acts 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
    Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him [by the prophets], they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

    Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
    Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

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    Debs asked:
    >>Tell me Paul what do you think about the current situation between Israel and Palestine at the moment? And YES I want you to answer this question very thoroughly!

    I won’t answer very thouroughly in this short comment, but I will start, just so you do not think I’m ignoring your question.

    1. I believe all the prophecies and all the promises of God in the Bible concerning Israel will be accomplished.
    2. That the church has NOT replaced Israel
    3. That the promised land described in the Bible is the historical homeland of Israel and all the Jews worldwide, and that the present state of Israel is occupying only a tiny fraction of the territory they are entitled to.
    4. That Israel has all the full rights to defend herself both defensively and preventively (when the evidence warrants it) against all her foes, enemies and those who want to annihilate and eradicate her (this includes the Arab/Muslim coalition and her Mother, Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother Harlot)
    5. I am aware that Satan is targeting this particular group to annihilate them, the chose people of God through whom God sent us His Son, because Satan want to thwart the promise of the Return of the Lord Jesus Christ to deliver and redeem His people Israel. Satan has singled them out, more that any other people on planet earth, to destroy them, so as to make God a liar. HE WILL NOT SUCCEED.
    6. I wholeheartedly support Israel, I love Israel, I am indebted to the Jewish people, I bless Israel and I pray for Israel and the peace of Jerusalem regularly.
    7. I strive to stay away from the prevalent and pervasive Anti-Semitism, Jews hatred, Jews prejudice, Jews stereotypes, etc.

    But at the same time, I believe that
    1. “the most dangerous situation facing the world today” is the Great Falling Away prophesied in the Bible.
    2. and that the FOCUS of all born again believers should be on the carrying out of the Great Commission and the preaching of the Cross to both Jews and Gentiles, while looking for “that blessed hope”

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

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    Debs, you asked #134:

    >>Tell me Paul, are you willing to dismiss all Dave Hunts work including the incredible book ‘What is this love’ because of a book that was written 50 something years ago.

    I will start by quoting Scripture:

    2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Now I will quote from Hunt himself to say that he seems to create but confusion in the minds of people, because on the one hand he exposes Calvinism, and on the other he says many (most?) Calvinists will nevertheless be saved:

    To the question:

    In the July ’05 Letters section, “TF of Ireland,” a self-proclaimed “Calvinist,” acknowledged that Tom and Dave are saved….Can you extend a statement of being a fellow believer to TF (and other Calvinists) as he has to you?

    To which Dave summed up his response with:

    Could someone who believes this false gospel of Calvinism be truly saved? Fortunately, many Calvinists (you among them) were saved before becoming Calvinists. They now malign God by saying that He is pleased to damn multitudes though He could save all—and that He predestines multitudes to the Lake of Fire before they are even born. But having believed the gospel before becoming Calvinists, they “shall not come into condemnation, but [have] passed from death unto life” (Jn:5:24). Those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved, while those who are saved and ought to know better but teach these heresies will be judged for doing so.
    (http://www.thebereancall.org/content/september-2005-q-and-a-2. please read all Dave’s answer to get the context)

    And also:

    Question [composite of several]: Was this a misstatement, or do you really believe what you said in your September Q&A: “Those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved”?

    and Dave’s answer begins with:

    The original question was, “Is it possible for someone who believes only in the soteriology of Calvin to be saved?” As I said in my response, there are many Calvinists who were saved before they became Calvinists or who have believed the true gospel in spite of their Calvinism—but “those who know only the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved.”
    (http://www.thebereancall.org/content/december-2005-q-and-a-1. please read all Dave’s answer to get the context)

    Finally, I would say about ‘What is this love’ that it is up to everyone, and would not recommend to anyone to get rid of it nor to keep it. As for me, I do not need it.

    Balaam is in hell, but God did speak through him and his prophecies are in Holy Writ.
    PLEASE, I am NOT comparing Hunt to Balaam or insinuating that like Balaam Hunt is going to Hell. No! No! No!

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    I’m going to end with this: I know there were some good points made in this discussion, but still…the topic has been buried beneath a noisy distraction of mud slinging.

    I find it curious that Paul and others have not addressed the real issue of this post but have instead waged a relentless attack against Dave Hunt. I’d like to see a Calvinist site accept such an attack against one of their own apologists.

    Here’s the real question. What thoughts do you have on Augustine’s lie of Ammilenialism? Dominionism is the/a central teaching of the Augustine, Calvin, the Reformed Church, the Catholic Church, Calvin. Dave Hunt addresses it…will you?

    In regards to Israel…we believe that Christ is the King who is the central figure of the Bible, but we also believe that Israel and Jerusalem is a central theme because it will be the HOME of the King in his Millennial earthly reign, so it follows that Israel, not the church has a very central, real and talked about place of importance in Scripture. It is God’s choice of place to set up his Holy King. It happens to be the place over which the whole world is fighting for dominance right now. The Bible, not Dave makes Israel a prophetic timepiece…

    Paul…you are quibbling over a word??? “the” or “a” ?? I’m sorry, but this has become a hex Dave Hunt reality show. I’m out.

    Dave put the focus where it is supposed to be. Our real enemy is not Dave Hunt. Our real enemies are the ones who are diverting attention away from God’s Millennial Kingdom, away from the prophecies about Israel and Jerusalem and placing them onto the One World Church and setting up a Kingdom on earth for the Antichrist.

    It had to be said…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

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    Sorry, there have been some technical problems, comments might disappear again soon.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    Re the Prophecy on Israel and Prophecy about Jesus – You are taking thing way out of proportion on certain aspects and I am sorry but it seems you are looking to find trouble with just about anything when it comes to Dave Hunt.

    To throw the book ‘What is this Love’ under the bus because you are on a rampage to find fault anywhere you can is disastrous. This book has helped MANY and I mean MANY people come to understand the FALSENESS of the Calvinism, and has even helped people out of Calvinism.

    I am sorry Paul but there are things I that agree with you about here and there are things that I don’t agree with you on.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul

    Could someone who believes this false gospel of Calvinism be truly saved? Fortunately, many Calvinists (you among them) were saved before becoming Calvinists. They now malign God by saying that He is pleased to damn multitudes though He could save all—and that He predestines multitudes to the Lake of Fire before they are even born. But having believed the gospel before becoming Calvinists, they “shall not come into condemnation, but [have] passed from death unto life” (Jn:5:24). Those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved, while those who are saved and ought to know better but teach these heresies will be judged for doing so.
    (http://www.thebereancall.org/content/september-2005-q-and-a-2. please read all Dave’s answer to get the context)

    and

    The original question was, “Is it possible for someone who believes only in the soteriology of Calvin to be saved?” As I said in my response, there are many Calvinists who were saved before they became Calvinists or who have believed the true gospel in spite of their Calvinism—but “those who know only the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved.”
    (http://www.thebereancall.org/content/december-2005-q-and-a-1. please read all Dave’s answer to get the context)

    As I said on another topic, if someone was genuinely saved, and they got trapped in the doctrine of Calvinism for a while then yes (that is a different story) but to say one is supposedly genuinely saved and then becomes a PERMANENT Calvinist is saved?? That is not right. I don’t think the person was saved to start off with if they remain in the doctrine of Calvinism and won’t budge right to the very end – where is the Holy Spirit in their life leading them into ALL TRUTH?

    Is this not what David Hunt is saying, that people who are genuinely saved and get trapped in Calvinism, will sooner or later leave it because they are saved?

    Hmmmmmm….I went to read herehttp://www.thebereancall.org/content/december-2005-q-and-a-1 and at the bottom it states,

    “That a person may believe the true gospel and thus be truly saved in spite of believing the false gospel of Calvinism may be possible. But I don’t see how one could sort out the fact that contradictory beliefs were being held. What does one really believe?”

    Basically Dave is not willing to damn every Calvinist to hell in case they were saved BEFORE they got trapped in in Calvinism (which means the Holy Spirit WILL lead them out of it), however those who get ‘Elected’ in Calvinism are caught up in a cult unlike any other believing TULIP from the word go have little chance of ever getting saved. There are some who make it out, but not many.

  • Redeemed

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    Carolyn wrote:

    I’m going to end with this: I know there were some good points made in this discussion, but still…the topic has been buried beneath a noisy distraction of mud slinging.
    I find it curious that Paul and others have not addressed the real issue of this post but have instead waged a relentless attack against Dave Hunt.
    Here’s the real question. What thoughts do you have on Augustine’s lie of Ammilenialism? Dominionism is the/a central teaching of the Augustine, Calvin, the Reformed Church, the Catholic Church, Calvin. Dave Hunt addresses it…will you?

    In regards to Israel…we believe that Christ is the King who is the central figure of the Bible, but we also believe that Israel and Jerusalem is a central theme because it will be the HOME of the King in his Millennial earthly reign, so it follows that Israel, not the church has a very central, real and talked about place of importance in Scripture. It is God’s choice of place to set up his Holy King. It happens to be the place over which the whole world is fighting for dominance right now. The Bible, not Dave makes Israel a prophetic timepiece…

    Paul…you are quibbling over a word??? “the” or “a” ?? I’m sorry, but this has become a hex Dave Hunt reality show. I’m out.

    Dave put the focus where it is supposed to be. Our real enemy is not Dave Hunt.
    It had to be said…

    Carolyn, you have a way with words! I could not have said it any better. I was not going to comment again, but like Carolyn, I wanted to chime in one last time.

    I truly hope that Paul takes the log out of his own eye so he can better see in the mirror. He is picking specks out of Dave Hunt’s “eye”. This is a rebuke out of love for the brethren of which Paul is counted. He is doing a disservice not only to himself but others with his Pharisical attitude and nitpicking.

    Dave Hunt never put himself on a pedistal and neither do I. A humble and gentle man, he bravely and with conviction took on a topic that others would not even touch and yet he did it with compassion and grace. When the majority of the Christian community was going along with the fearmongers during Y2K, Dave again took the contrarion position to expose the utter foolishness that was being promoted. He has written some great books on prophecy and exposed the evils of “Christian” yoga. He also exhorted the Body of Christ to stand for sound doctrine. He would want anyone to test his works by the Word of God as the authority.

    He is/was not infallible, but one can see his passion for the truth come through in his works that are his legacy. I look forward to conversing with him in heaven as one of the heroes of the faith although he would surely shrink away from any accolades except they come from the Lord at the Bema and like the rest of us if we have any crowns we will cast them all at Jesus’ feet because it is He who deserves all praise and honor and glory!

    As believers, we are the undeserving benefactors of God’s mercy and grace and we are to pass it on to others while at the same time being salt and light in a dark world. It can be difficult to keep the right balance in the current state of apostasy. But we must use wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit not to become critical in spirit and go off on tangents that are not helpful.

    The intention of this thread has been to expose the evils of Calvinism. It would seem that Paul is more interested in finding fault with a defender of the faith than defending the faith. I do extend peace and grace to Paul – I do believe that Dave would do the same.

  • Marion

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    All:

    Since Dominionism has been brought up, returning us to the original article, I have thought it prudent to now post this response, which I have been sitting on for several days. It also ties into the discussion related to Dave Hunt. (I know many are tired of this, but bear with me).
    Did anyone look into the links I posted earlier related to the Council for National Policy (CNP)? You ought. Short story – they are an anti-American, anti-christ organization, which is hidden ‘neath the guise of the American flag (patriotism) and they carry the cross. Their goal is a one-world government with one-world religion (fascism/”pseudo Christianity” – anti-christ). They were co-founded by Tim LaHaye.
    They are Dominionists.

    Since some of the words and works of Dave Hunt have been examined, I put together a piece related to the complex, interconnected “network” relationships.
    This is a “short” (trust me, there’s more, so much MORE, WAY TOO MUCH), somewhat confusing, but worth it if you follow it, example of the EXTENSIVE web of deception being played out not only in our world, but the “church”. This is one “small” part of a very big picture. If you follow it, it will (hopefully) make sense – it may need to be digested in small bites – but be tenacious! It’s a small bit of how it “works” and much will come together.
    This link shows that this particular organization (pseudo-church) was founded on the foundation of “another gospel” and “another Jesus” and is of “another spirit.” Why is this important? It seems to be a “hotbed” from which all manner of “false teachers” have been bred, and also receive unto itself. As can be seen, there is a “network” of “teachers/preachers/apologists” who pour out of said organization/”church.” What comes out of “fake” CIA created churches? Fake pastors/teachers/apologists/teaching. It is important to notice who those folks are and what they are doing.

    http://calvarychapelwatchman.blogspot.com/

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/06/tim-lahayes-satanic-flow-chart-with.html

    In this link, pay particular attention to conference speakers – ALL OF THEM…WHO DO YOU SEE?…many are CNP/”Family”…who desire to lead you. They are all part of the same “network”, and “run together.” Where you see one, you will see the same several…over and over again.

    [Edited – removed link (sorry Marion, I really don’t want to link to this website)]

    “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” (Matt. 12:33)

    The “tree” of Tim LayHaye, (CNP) along with all his “branches”, and the “tree” of Calvary Chapel, along with all it’s “branches” are corrupt; all who associate and participate in the “work” of these “trees” (there are many other such type “trees” – focusing only on these 2 for our purposes here) are corrupt…ALL OF THEM. I used to think that perhaps there were some involved who “didn’t know” “who” and “what” they had become involved with…BUT…after contacting several and sharing information to warn them…it became apparent…THEY KNOW…exactly what they are doing. These are men and women are created entities who are “planted” into the “Christian community” with materials that are PROVIDED to them…initially, good, sound materials…then…a leading astray…subtly…bit by bit…to corrupt, destroy and confuse “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 3). It is good to give a brother/sister the benefit of the doubt…when it comes to those held out as “teachers”….WOLVES in “SHEEP’S CLOTHING” are very convincing….and dangerous. For example, Dr. Stan Monteith had written a series on the “Secret Cabals” for World Net Daily (owned by Joseph Farah – CNP – internet CNP – “christian” “conservative” religio/political influential mouthpiece). I wrote Dr. Stan, and asked him how he could accomplish this since he, himself was a member of the CNP. He responded that he had resigned from them, ’cause they were a “front” for the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations – another anti-American, one-world government/religion group IN the US – who are Dominionists). I then said, “so you’ll be exposing them?” SILENCE was the response, and he did not. Time and focus here do not allow the exploration of the reality that many of those who profess to “warn” are ACTUALLY…INITIATING unsuspecting sheep into the MYSTERIES…secret knowledge…forbidden in Scripture.

    Might we have benefited from their works? Very possibly, SINCE the “faithful” parts of the Word of God that has been delivered to establish their credibility, IS the Word of God which goes forth to accomplish whatever the Lord desires, and does not return void. HOWEVER…once it is established that they are “false brethren/teachers/’wolves in sheep’s clothing'” we ought “from such turn away”…as far as Bible teaching is concerned. I do however, continue to reference Dave Hunt’s material when wanting to share the threats of psychology and other occult practices in the church. Read for information…but be always mindful…these people are NOT our friends, nor necessarily our brethren. We do not know them.

    It is WAY TOO SAD…that Dave brought up to date and re-edited the occult work of William Law for consumption in the “pastures” of the “flock of God.”

    BTW…in the “network” that Dave had previously run in, to a significant degree…Calvary Chapel (which would include Chuck Missler (CNP), of which much has been written and exposed)…be it known…that Chuck Missler is a “disciple of Jacob Boehme as well…of whom William Law was a “disciple”…admired by and introduced to the “church” by Dave Hunt. This is not mere “coincidence.” Chuck Missler has been exposed; Dave Hunt has been largely able to “fly under the radar.”

    Also…rather than arguing opinions about how “good” Dave’s work has been, do your own research. Look into Jeremiah Films by Pat Matrisciano (CNP)…see where his materials are sold/promoted…(yes, The Berean Call and others)…as well as ex-wife Caryl’s… synopsis…he’s CIA…sent to CA to infiltrate the counter-culture Jesus People Movement in the ’60s, Calvary Chapel having been directly birthed from it. It is a false “church.” Consider the gross error and apostate, ecumenical direction, who included amongst their “network” are the “warners”…Roger Oakland, Dave Hunt, Jan Markell, Sandy Simpson, Miguel Hayworth, Mike Oppenheimer, Eric Barger, Jacob Prasch, Ray Yungen, Warren Smith, Caryl Matriciana, Joe Schimmel, Chris Pinto, Brannon Howse (CNPers/”Family” all over his site, including CNPer David Noebel – writes books with Tim LaHaye – see below) BTW…he (Brannon) IS the Trojan Horse that has crept into the churches, along with others, …there’s lots of room in the “belly” of that horse; Chris Lawson, along with MANY, MANY others not mentioned here (just insert your favorite “whoever”). Not convinced…even though Chuck Missler has been exposed for many years, with intense exposure in the past 18 months…just consider WHO in the “who’s who” of “Christian apologetics” or “discerment ministries” has even bothered to mention it. Oh, you will find a somewhat watered down expose’ on Herescope or Jackie Alnor’s site; BUT..if you will look…they “run with the wolves” as well.
    [Edited – removed link (sorry Marion, I really don’t want to link to this website)]

  • Marion

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    It will have been important for you to have read my previous comment and examined the links, to “unravel” to some extent the “network.”

    NOW…speaking about TA being at Tim LaHaye’s conference referenced by William above, TA has a WONDERFUL video called “Psyching Out the Church”, where he exposes the anti-christ philosophy and practice of psychology and it’s improper place in the “church”, and emphasizing the “sufficiency of Christ and the Scriptures” in the believer’s life…for ALL of life. This is good material…BUT TA is WAY off base…not that he, Dave or anyone else might not “teach” anything that isn’t “biblical”…BUT we also must ponder this.

    At the conference (note: ALL the speaker’s are “false brethren.” ) , for example Mike Gendron’s topic was “Roman Catholic’s Drift into Apostasy.” REALLY? RCism is PAGAN…she has “drifted into apostasy?”…this subtilty IMPLIES RCism’s roots are “Christian.” They are not!

    TA’s topic was “Psychology n the Church.” Great topic…but REALLY?…at Tim LaHaye’s conference?
    The same Tim LaHaye who authored,

    Spirit-Controlled Temperament (1966) revised (Tyndale House Publishers 1993)
    Transforming Your Temperament (1971)
    Why You Act the Way You Do (1987)
    Mind Siege: The Battle for Truth in the New Millennium, co-written with David A. Noebel (Word Publishing, 2000) (David Noebel ‘CNP’-) (not psychology – a CNP bonus reference)
    wife Beverly wrote How to Develop Your Child’s Temperaments

    BTW I was introduced to Tim LaHaye and his witchcraft as a new believer many years ago, and read the Spirit-Controlled Temperament.
    What are the “roots” of “four temperament” PSYCHOLOGY?!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_temperaments

    In case you missed it…the roots are PAGAN! Sooo, we MUST ask…TA McMahon (anti-psychology) at Tim LaHaye’s (psychologizer, BTW CNP) conference…REALLY??????

    Where the deceivers hide is the “show us anything unbiblical we have said or written” mantra (so they can “fix it”…obviously they miss some details that the diligent are able to pick up. “Fixing it” covers their nakedness, making it more difficult for the next prudent readers to discern their “spirit.”…they DO NOT want us looking at what they “do” and “who” they “run with.” I’ve always said, “wolves run in packs.”

    Do we not see a problem with all of this? It is a tangled, spiritual web of deception, and it is BIGGER…so much BIGGER than we can possibly comprehend, or WANT to wrap our heads around; it seems so totally unreal! (When the Lord first started unravelling the deception to me, I was depressed for three months!) The Scriptures say, “And we know that we are of God, and the WHOLE WORLD lieth in wickedness.” (1 Jn. 5:19 – emphasis mine). It would behoove us to very closely look into these matters. Praise God for the indwelling of His Holy Spirit in the people of God, our teacher and comforter…who first of all, leads us into all truth and warns us of error…for this to happen, we must first of all be people of the Word; the Holy Word of God…without error, as opposed to the books and words of men. I’m thankful for the internet, where we now CAN access information and know who and what we’re dealing with, that we might not long languish in deception and/or unbelief, being ignorant of the devil’s devices. That we might be snatched from the snare of the devil by a good, gracious, merciful, longsuffering God and Saviour and the warnings of our brethren.

    Jesus said, ” Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves,.” (Matt. 10:16) Brethren…we are SURROUNDED!

  • Marion

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    “Judgment Day”
    Someone mentioned above, Dave wrote a book called “Judgment Day.” All one needs to do is take a look at the endorsements…can be found here (give it a good minute to load, or you’ll miss some of the endorsers):
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Judgment-Day-Islam-Israel-Nations/dp/1928660320#reader_1928660320

    Let’s take a look them:
    Randall Price, Ph.D – wiki link
    his ministry site…notice the same names reoccuring…take note of the names exposed in some of the links I posted in my previous comment.
    http://www.worldofthebible.com/ourstaff.htm

    Joseph Farah – CNP
    World Net Daily – “premiere site” for all things promoted as “conservative, biblical, judeo/christian”
    Take note of their contributors…part of the CNP “mouthpiece/leading network.”
    You’ll find Joe all over the various Missler “enterprises,” along with other “pseudo/Christian” organizations.

    Hans Kristian – of International Sakharov Committee is another endorser of Hunt’s “Judgment Day”

    When looking for information regarding Hans Kristian (related to his organization)…I was surprised to discover his last name had been left off when named along with the other endorsers of Dave’s book.

    His full name is Hans Kristian Neerkov…who is that?

    http://ivarfjeld.com/2009/07/31/danish-priest-%C2%ABthere-has-never-been-a-palestinian-state%C2%BB/

    …a Danish priest…!!????

    BTW…Dave co-authored another book, called “Mission Possible.” His co-author was Hans Kristian Neerkov.
    The anti-Catholic (Woman who Rides the Beast) Dave Hunt yoking with Rome to write books…for Christians…hiding his identity??

    Next on the list is Earl Poysti…who he is, what he believes, and his testimony can be found here:

    All these names put together, appearing over and over…clearly indicate a type of “christian syndicate.”

    So much for Dave Hunt’s “good fight” against ecumenism.

    WOW!

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Re: Marion’s comments 161, 162,163

    I hate to keep repeating myself, but the topic of this thread is CALVINISM, not an examination of The Berean Call, Calvary Chapel, or Tim LaHaye. The topic is the book “What Love Is This” by Dave Hunt as the article that started this thread is about CALVINISM.

    It is not about networks or conspiratorial issues that DO exist as Marion says. Personally, I have eliminated the laundry list of people mentioned as being sources that I would trust or recommend. However, I do not believe that justifies making a case for VILLIFYING Dave Hunt as some sinister merchant of evil which this thread has morphed into being. It is absolutely ridiculous!

    I trust no person entirely and that includes certain discernment sites that go way too far and are way too extreme and are doctrinally offbase to boot. They are not helpful or edifying to the Body of Christ IMHO. I appreciate William Saunders’ work as he does it with a humble heart and carefully documents everything and does not stretch the truth and blow it out of proportion. I said I APPRECIATE William, but I don’t put him on a pedestal and he would shrink from that. And I don’t hesitate to question him from time to time privately.

    Mike Gendron was mentioned, but the greater point was missed. He is a hard and fast CALVINIST!

    Please understand, I don’t question for a moment Marion’s sincerity, but all of this IMHO only serves as a smokescreen and a diversion from the main topic.

    Discerners who delve into conspiracies and evil sources may in fact be right, but is it really edifying? Isn’t it giving more attention to the enemy than standing for truth? The Bible even warns about this.

    Yes, expose false teachers as the Bible instructs, but don’t glorify the enemy in the process.

  • Marion

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed…appreciate your comments.

    Since the thread, as you pointed out relates to Calvinism, did you notice in my comment #163 that it takes a look at endorsers of a book written by Dave, and WHO they are? Did you notice he is also writing books with CATHOLIC PRIESTS…?

    You rightly remind us of the article title…”Calvinism’s Surprising Catholic Connection.”

    Have you noticed Dave Hunt’s surprising CATHOLIC connection as well?

    BTW…concerning “conspiracies”…kindly refer to Psalm 2.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    It would appear Paul, Marion, etc have been squeaky clean their entire life, never having made a mistake…

    After I was saved I was caught up in many a false teaching and thank Jesus He led me out of it because of my love for the Gospel truth. But even today I am tricked by people claiming to be Christian who then turn out not to be. Apparently Paul and Marion, etc can’t be fooled, or never have been fooled and had their foolishness from many years ago exposed for all to see.

  • Marion

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    By writing, >>>”Marion is misrepresenting the truth…”

    Clearly, Redeemed seeks to discredit the research.

    Marion never said the book “Mission Possible” was being sold at The Berean Call; and was merely addressing the fact that it has been written. Whether it is or is not being sold there, is really beside the point. The facts of the matter…stand.

    Let all read, and come to their own conclusions.
    Call it what you will…the associations…the “team players”…matter.

    BTW:
    My response timed 5:58 was in response to #166, and clearly crossed in cyberspace with #168, and should have been labeled #169. I was not writing in appreciation of Redeemed’s diversion.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    When I saw the name “Jack Wyrtzen” in the Bio of radical ecumenist Earl Poysti, I remembered I have seen that name somewhere…

    Yes, Harry Bollback is co-founder with Jack Wyrtzen of the ecumenical organization “Word of Life International”

    Harry Bollback is also one of the “EXCEPTIONAL endorsers” of “What Love is this?” (emphasis in original).
    I have already mentioned 3 (in)famous of those endorsers in #56.

    http://www.amazon.ca/What-Love-This-Calvinisms-Misrepresentation/dp/1928660126#reader_1928660126

    As Marion says, we are really dealing here with an extensive network of a “christian syndicate.”

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Debs wrote:

    It would appear Paul, Marion, etc have been squeaky clean their entire life, never having made a mistake…
    Apparently Paul and Marion, etc can’t be fooled, or never have been fooled and had their foolishness from many years ago exposed for all to see.

    Come on sister Debs, you are being sarcastic here LOL.
    You know too well how I have been deceived for the first 19 years of my christian life, after I got saved and left the Great Whore in 1992.

    I have started exposing my “fooled years” on my blog, and more strongly within the “ministry” where I got fooled, and have completely turned my back to what was my life for 19 years.

    Re-read my comment #86 where I wrote:
    “My point is, Hunt has never repudiated nor denounced nor exposed it, meaning he still holds to those views and what he wrote therein.”

    “We have all at some point in our lives been deceived, led astray, gotten involved with false doctrines and false teachers. What have we done then when our eyes were opened: Expose, denounce, reject, separate, turn our back to it/them. Period.”

    and my comment #115 where I wrote:
    “So Hunt was confronted with the truth about William Law –> Jakob Boehme in the 46+ years (between at least 1967 when he edited, wrote the intro and published Law’s book, and today) AND he did not turn back but persisted. His last copyright of “The Power of The Spirit” is 2007 according to Marion above. (I believe he is not the author of the latest 2012 copyright of the Kindle edition of the book).
    My point is, if someone is deceiving (teaching error, spreading error, mixing truth with error) AND he is confronted with that error and shown the truth AND the person persists in his error, THEN the person had been deceived in the first place.
    IF Hunt had never been confronted about Law–>Boehme and shown the truth about these men, then maybe I should retract my calling him a deceived deceiver. But I don’t believe that’s the case. I don’t believe as William alludes, that Hunt “might have found out [the truth] about the person [Law–>Boehme] later in life”.

    WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING HERE.

    Another example:
    Roman Catholic priest Hans Kristian Neerkov ENDORSED “Judgement Day”, whose latest copyright is 2006.

    I cannot guarantee that I will never again be deceived (in fact it is more likely I will), but I trust on the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth and expose all deceptions, and as I continue in His Word and separate myself from error, I will know the truth and abide in the truth.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion mentioned above some endorsers of the 2005 edition of “Judgement Day”.

    In the new and expanded 2006 edition of “Judgement Day”, Hunt added a couple of additional endorsements.

    One of them is Walid Shoebat, an alleged former PLO Terrorist. Shoebat is a notorious false teacher. See for example (not an endorsement. For information only. Use with discernment) and

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion

    Yes we (Redeemed and I) see now that the book was written co-written by Dave Hunt and this Catholic Priest??? (Hans Kristian Neerkov) 30 years ago, HOWEVER his book Judgement Day is a recent endorsement by Hans Kristian Neerkov which is unsettling.

    I will email TBC and ask them why a Catholic Priest was allowed to give a review of their book, or even if Hans Kristian is a Catholic Priest.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Email sent to The Berean Call about Catholic Priest connection.

    ————–

    From: Discerning the World
    Sent: 07 March 2013 08:02 AM
    To: ‘TA McMahon’
    Subject: Dave Hunt and Catholic Priest Hans Kristian Neerkov

    Dear Tom

    Another commenter has brought forth the following information. I find all this info concerning, but I am highlighting the one in yellow that is very concerning.

    Why is Dave Hunt’s book ‘Judgment Day’ endorsed by a Catholic Priest?

    ——————
    Marion wrote:
    87 approved commetns

    “Judgment Day”
    Someone mentioned above, Dave wrote a book called “Judgment Day.” All one needs to do is take a look at the endorsements…can be found here (give it a good minute to load, or you’ll miss some of the endorsers):
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Judgment-Day-Islam-Israel-Nations/dp/1928660320#reader_1928660320

    Let’s take a look them:
    Randall Price, Ph.D – wiki link
    his ministry site…notice the same names reoccuring…take note of the names exposed in some of the links I posted in my previous comment.
    http://www.worldofthebible.com/ourstaff.htm

    Joseph Farah – CNP
    World Net Daily – “premiere site” for all things promoted as “conservative, biblical, judeo/christian”
    Take note of their contributors…part of the CNP “mouthpiece/leading network.”
    You’ll find Joe all over the various Missler “enterprises,” along with other “pseudo/Christian” organizations.

    Hans Kristian – of International Sakharov Committee is another endorser of Hunt’s “Judgment Day”
    When looking for information regarding Hans Kristian (related to his organization)…I was surprised to discover his last name had been left off when named along with the other endorsers of Dave’s book.
    His full name is Hans Kristian Neerkov…who is that?
    http://ivarfjeld.com/2009/07/31/danish-priest-%C2%ABthere-has-never-been-a-palestinian-state%C2%BB/
    …a Danish priest…!!????
    BTW…Dave co-authored another book, called “Mission Possible.” His co-author was Hans Kristian Neerkov.
    The anti-Catholic (Woman who Rides the Beast) Dave Hunt yoking with Rome to write books…for Christians…hiding his identity??

    Next on the list is Earl Poysti…who he is, what he believes, and his testimony can be found here:

    All these names put together, appearing over and over…clearly indicate a type of “christian syndicate.”
    So much for Dave Hunt’s “good fight” against ecumenism.
    WOW!

    ———–

    Now I understand that the book that was written was written some 30 years ago, however the endorsement by Hans Kristian Neerkov on the Judgment Day is recent.

    Tom, can you please look into this, and then could you please come back to me to let me know your findings.

    Kind Regards

    Deborah :)
    —————–

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Regarding Dave Hunt’s book, JUDGEMENT DAY, you will notice that it has 3 editions. The 2nd edition is not endorsed as the first edition with Hans Kristian. There is now a 3rd edition and I don’t know if it carries any endorsements.

    Marion, if you will peruse all the books that Dave has written EXPOSING Roman Catholicism, the accusation that he has “surprising” Catholic connections seems ludicrous. He clearly shows in his writings the wickedness and evil in the Roman Catholic Church. Shouldn’t this stand for something Marion?

    Again, I see an effort to unearth items to discredit the greater work of Hunt. Some discerners specialize in this and even as one who loves the truth and hates error, I find this distasteful and unbecoming. If I thought for one moment that Dave Hunt was hypocritical underhanded and secretly yoking up with Rome, I would drop him like a hot potato because that would mean that he is a liar.

    I see flaws just as there are in any man, no matter who they are. If one looks close enough, one can see warts on any and everyone.

    The bottom line is that Dave Hunt is not a false teacher and has not led people into error, but rather delivered them from it. He has always stood for the true, uncompromised Gospel which kills Catholicism dead in it’s tracks.

    So Marion, why don’t you take a serious look at all the many edifying books that Dave has written and see if they have had a positive impact upon the Body of Christ and put down your magnifying glass. Yes, test the spirits, but extend grace and don’t judge hearts and motives. That is the Lord’s department.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    >> The 2nd edition is not endorsed as the first edition with Hans Kristian. There is now a 3rd edition and I don’t know if it carries any endorsements.

    Yes this will be interesting to see what the 3rd edition says…

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed wrote:

    >>The 2nd edition (of Judgement Day) is not endorsed as the first edition with Hans Kristian.

    Well, I disagree with you on this one.
    Hans Kristian Neerkov is an endorser of both the 1st and 2nd edition.
    He is listed as the 6th out of 7 endorsers. On the 2nd edition, many additional endorsements were added, but none of the 4 of the 1st edition was dropped.
    See:
    http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Israel-Nations-Second-Edition/dp/1928660428#reader_1928660428
    I also have the 2nd edition of book in my library.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Sorry, my previous post should have read:
    “Hans Kristian Neerkov is listed as the 11th out of 12 endorsers.”
    The amazon preview skips Walid Shoebat and Thad Hoyer.

    This link has the full list of endorsers of the 2nd edition, which are the same as on the hard copy I have.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed wrote:
    >>You call Deborah to task for printing an article and proceed to pick the author to pieces, but apparently you frequent the Chick site. Looks like a mixed message.

    IMHO, I have never “called Debs to task for printing Hunt’s article”. Nor did I recommend she pull down the article. No.
    I simply read the article and commented honestly from something I noticed in the article and my conviction about what I have found about the author (comment #14). I think this is what an open and truthful discussion is about, and what this thread has been about.

    I do not frequent the Chick site. I just remembered I read the Alberto Comic “The Prophet” (published by Chick) more than 20 years ago, and I made a search for it and picked the first source I found. Had I known a more reliable source, I would have provided it instead. If you know one, please provide it, and I would even ask Debs to update my post with a more reliable source.
    I agree providing unreliable source is risky business, even though we sometimes have to do that when we do not have better sources.
    For example, Debs has provided an audio from Ralph Ovadal exposing Joyce Meyer’s false teachings (with an important disclaimer). Ovadal is Reformed, and I learn that Reformed are Calvinists, right?

  • Redeemed

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Paul (Continue in His Word) wrote:

    Redeemed wrote:
    >>The 2nd edition (of Judgement Day) is not endorsed as the first edition with Hans Kristian.
    Well, I disagree with you on this one.
    Hans Kristian Neerkov is an endorser of both the 1st and 2nd edition.
    He is listed as the 6th out of 7 endorsers. On the 2nd edition, many additional endorsements were added, but none of the 4 of the 1st edition was dropped.
    See:
    http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Israel-Nations-Second-Edition/dp/1928660428#reader_1928660428
    I also have the 2nd edition of book in my library.

    What I pulled up on the 2nd edition showed a different set of endorsers. That is what I based my statement upon.

    I don’t know what the 3rd edition shows as endorsers.

    Once again, Paul your behavior indicates that you are being DRIVEN rather than LED by the Holy Spirit. IMHO you have crossed the line from discernment to devouring. That is a trap that discerners cannot afford to approach with care and not with reckless abandonment. You seem to spend more time digging up morsels and salivating over them than addressing evils that should be a priority.

  • Carolyn

    [comment moved from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Marion…re comment 161 I’m still choking on this paragraph…where you said:
    “Also…rather than arguing opinions about how “good” Dave’s work has been, do your own research. Look into Jeremiah Films by Pat Matrisciano (CNP)…see where his materials are sold/promoted…(yes, The Berean Call and others)…as well as ex-wife Caryl’s… synopsis…he’s CIA…sent to CA to infiltrate the counter-culture Jesus People Movement in the ’60s, Calvary Chapel having been directly birthed from it. It is a false “church.” Consider the gross error and apostate, ecumenical direction, who included amongst their “network” are the “warners”…Roger Oakland, Dave Hunt, Jan Markell, Sandy Simpson, Miguel Hayworth, Mike Oppenheimer, Eric Barger, Jacob Prasch, Ray Yungen, Warren Smith, Caryl Matriciana, Joe Schimmel, Chris Pinto, Brannon Howse (CNPers/”Family” all over his site, including CNPer David Noebel – writes books with Tim LaHaye – see below) BTW…he (Brannon) IS the Trojan Horse that has crept into the churches, along with others, …there’s lots of room in the “belly” of that horse; Chris Lawson, along with MANY, MANY others not mentioned here (just insert your favorite “whoever”). Not convinced…even though Chuck Missler has been exposed for many years, with intense exposure in the past 18 months…just consider WHO in the “who’s who” of “Christian apologetics” or “discerment ministries” has even bothered to mention it. Oh, you will find a somewhat watered down expose’ on Herescope or Jackie Alnor’s site; BUT..if you will look…they “run with the wolves” as well.”

    From your list, I don’t think there’s anyone left to listen to. It’s a frightening scenario. My personal thinking at this point is that we can’t fix everything in the discernment world. We’ll just have to let the Lord sort it out because if we try to police everyone and everything because of their connections, there won’t be anyone left. And God’s work will suffer in the meantime because we will be so busy with in-fighting that we won’t be doing what the Lord of the Harvest has called us to do…present the truth of the gospel.

    Would this Scripture apply? I think for myself, I do see some disturbing connections, but in rooting up the tares, I might also root up all the wheat and in so doing, destroy the work of the Spirit. (And of course my caution is that there is a time for exposing hypocrisy such as Tim Lahaye’s detestable connections with Sun Myung Moon…I’m not saying something shouldn’t be said).

    Matthew 13:27-31
    New International Version (NIV)
    27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
    28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
    “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
    29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

    I think the key is to be on your guard against the wolves. And you and Paul, as well as William have exposed. We have to leave it there…God is the judge. We just present the truth and leave the outcome with Him. Although we expose we don’t necessarily enforce…unless it is in our scope and power to do so.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Redeemed,

    at one point in this discussion I was about to withdraw, but Debs said

    Don’t run away now… I want quotes and quote him properly, not just one little liner that can be misconstrued if you want to misconstrue it. Come now, you started this, lets finish it off.

    That is why I continued, then I asked her a couple of times more if I shall continue. If Debs had said STOP, that would have been it. But is seemed to me she wanted to investigate a little bit further, and right now she has 2 questions pending with TBC.
    I agree that this discussion be moved somewhere else, and as long as Debs allows it to continue, I am willing to contribute.

    Debs asked:
    >>Yes this will be interesting to see what the 3rd edition says…

    The book “Judgement Day” that I have is actually the THIRD edition and is the edition that has 12 endorsers as I mentioned in #186 (including the Danish Priest)

    Redeemed, I apologize for my comment #181. I do not have the 2nd edition of the book. My comment was based on that pdf extract (#182) that says “Second Edition (Updated & Expanded)
    BTW, I purchased that book last summer. I did not by it to “dig up morsels” for the sake of this discussion, and if I have continued to look at it in the course of this conversation is as I said because Debs asked me for quotes.
    I do not glory nor boast in exposing someone who IMHO is a deceived deceiver. I actually look at the extensive network of deceivers, and that is what breaks my heart for the sheep of the Lord(of which we are).

  • Redeemed

    [comment move from article: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection]

    Some final thoughts:

    As believers we are all on the same side. We have disagreements from time to time and this happens to be one of them when I have tried to reason w/Paul to not strain at gnats while killer bees are posing a REAL & PRESENT danger.

    I think we are to exhort one another to good works and issue rebukes when it is edifying to do so and not done in the flesh. Ideally, this would not occur in a public forum, but that is not always possible. And it can be beneficial to others to observe the process even though it can get testy at times. We are all works in progress and we have strong convictions that at times can clash. But like our Lord says, agape love supersedes all, or it should. That isn’t always warm and fuzzy.

    I have made my points here. I am through debating the minor while the major is ravaging the flock. Unfortunately now Deborah will be in a quandry as to what to post next.

    According to Paul, Dave Hunt is a “deceived deceiver” and Thomas Lessing is being picked apart as well. I don’t think this glorifies the Lord but rather plays right into the enemy’s hands.

    It is unfortunate that publishers push to have people endorse books. The only endorser needed is the Holy Spirit. But we are living in the real world. And often the author has little to do with who endorses their books – that doesn’t take them off the hook, but isn’t the content of the book what is really important?

    We have had Mom4Truth who entered the discussion and made ridiculous statements that condemn a ministry like TBC for having nonprofit status. This type of mentality is a distraction and a distortion. If it isn’t one thing it is another they find fault with.

    Yes, there are evil “networks” as Marion points out, but some people get so bogged down in investigating and exposing this that sound doctrine is neglected and things get out of balance. Discernment is sorting out the true from the false and there are so many facets of it and much confusion. Balance is SO important and yet so difficult to maintain.

    There is only ONE authority, the Word of God and ONE enemy behind all “networks” and evil forces and conspiracies.

    Finally, Paul absolutely CONDEMNS Hunt a “deceived deceiver”. Paul can you produce someone who has been DECEIVED by Dave Hunt? Well, I have read testimonies of people who have been DELIVERED from the evil clutches of Calvinism via Dave’s book and I have also read the hateful and vicious rhetoric coming from advocates of Calvinism who oppose Dave for exposing this destructive doctrine. How can you in good conscience before the Lord call Hunt a “deceived deceiver”? Astounding, absolutely astounding and downright disheartening.

  • Redeemed

    The reposting of the comments reveals a trail of false accusations against Dave Hunt that don’t even relate to the book in question.

    First, Dave Hunt is accused of undermining the KJV. False!
    Secondly, he is accoused of not believing in a literal hell. Proven false!
    Thirdly, Hunt’s book What Love Is This? is belittled by saying that a book is not necessary, only calling forth a few Scriptures is sufficient to expose Calvinism.
    Anyone who has a knowledge of the deception of TULIP knows that it is no simple task to unravel that twisted doctrine.

    THEN the topic of the book in question was brought up. It was as if there was an attempt to find fault with Hunt and when the Power of the Spirit book was brought up, it was as if they had hit the mother lode and finally found something concrete.

    It would seem to indicate that there is a critical spirit here at work. There is a big difference between exposing error that is an immediate danger to the flock and one that is largely nondescript and probably noticed by a very few and pales in comparison to the many excellent works by Hunt. Calvinism has multitudes trapped in their lies and many people have given testimony to coming out of that belief into the truth through Hunt’s book.

    I am not trying to prolong the discussion or cast stones. But I thought it was worth mentioning.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    The long awaited reply from The Berean Call:

    (Just ignore the sarcastic/nasty response and focus on the details….I have no idea why Tom had to reply in such a manner. I never accused anyone, I just asked a valid question, one that he previously said he would answer. And discernment and research are two different things.)

    ——————–
    From: TA McMahon
    Sent: 12 March 2013 07:38 PM
    To: Discerning the World
    Subject: Re: Dave Hunt and Catholic Priest Hans Kristian Neerkov

    Deborah–We have a criteria for who we respond to so that we are not distracted from what the Lord has called us to do. We consider what’s being said or what we are being accused of and decide its merits. If we think it needs to be addressed or a correction is necessary, we do so. We also make a value judgment as to whether the person seems to be teachable or not. We do not bother with those who have no interest in being corrected.

    What I’m talking about is the kind of misinformation that is presented or an accusing person seriously lacking discernment. For example, Hans has never been a Catholic priest; he did become a Lutheran in order to have access to the lost within the Lutheran church. His endorsement of JD was welcome because he has been a fierce opponent of Islam.

    Earl Poysti, through his radio program, has possibly brought more iron curtain people to Christ than anyone during the reign of Communism.

    Considering the other names, people change over the years. Joesph Farrah, for example, use to be a friend but now has become (according to him) my enemy. There’s nothing I can do about that. Nevertheless, that doesn’t alter the value of JUDGMENT DAY.

    Along that line, we are going to discontinue distributing THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, primarily because of Norman Grubb’s forward. Dave had serious disagreements with him regarding his Union Life teaching, yet the publisher of this book written in the early 70s kept it in.

    You have the responsibility, as do we, in checking out info that is presented to you, and then deciding how to deal with it. As a discernment blog, you should have “discerned” the erroneous Catholic priest accusation. If you decide to correspond with such accusers, my encouragement to you is to take them to the Scriptures rather than dealing with their guilt by association accusations.

    In Christ’s love and service, Tom
    ——————

    1) TBC are scrapping the book. It would appear the publisher liked the topic of Christian Universalism. I would not be surprised if it was the Publisher who kept this book running all this time. I don’t think Dave actually realized what the book was about quite honestly, but HE DID KNOW what Normal Grubb’s UNION LIFE teaching was all about and funnily enough it’s EXACTLY what those quotes promote – that man becomes a god or Christ when you become get saved.

    2) Also the Hand the so called Danish Priest is not a Catholic Priest at all, never was!!!

    3) Regarding the names of people who are not kosher like Missler and Chuck Smith giving reviews on the back of Dave Hunts books; I do not believe this has anything to do with Dave Hunt but with other people within The Berean Call.

    Now Dave Hunt has been cleared of all charges against him.

  • Carolyn

    Debs, your responsibility to check out the facts? What? Believe something written on the internet, believe the publisher or do what you did and go directly to the author? You did the right thing and receiving an answer without the sarcasm would have been nice.

    Do these guys get too important to write a simple little note to someone in love, especially when your expressed intention was to clear Dave’s name? Huh.

    Anyhow, knowing about the “Union Life”…the book should have been pulled a long time ago. Nicely done!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Carolyn

    Thanks, I agree and was too quite bewildered.

    I am going to shut down the comments on this thread to prevent the nitpickers from finding another way to trash Dave Hunt.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Debs,

    I am surprised that you give any credibility to TA McMahon.
    I mean, this guy is a grievous wolves who almost doesn’t have sheep’s clothing on. At least to a “Berean” believer it is obvious. Funny, they still carry the name “Berean Call”. This shows the extend to which the deception is widespread in professing Christianity today.

    You see the way he treated you in his answer?
    That should tell you a lot about who he is. Anyway you know he’s a wolf.

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Note:
    I don’t mean in my last comment that there is nothing truthful about TA’s reply to Debs, but I won’t trust this man for a second. He is a deceiver.
    I definitely apologize for assuming Hans Kristian was a RC priest, because of that single source provided by Marion that referred to him as a “priest”.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    Where do I give credibility to Tom? I know what he is and who he hangs with. Who else was I supposed to email Paul at the Berean Call to get the answers needed?? There was no one else. Unfortunately it had to be him to clear Dave Hunts name. TA McMahon has taken over the Berean Call, it’s his baby now. I don’t think Dave Hunt knows what TA McMahon is all about and has left a Godly ministry in the clutches of a wolf. TA Mahon played the perfect christian partner alongside Dave Hunt all these years, waiting for the day he would take over all his followers – and it’s happened and now things are a changin’ at the Berean Call and the followers are not noticing, well some are but the majority are not.

  • Redeemed

    Paul, at least he answered, didn’t he even with the snarky tone? That is better than most ministries who immediately hit the delete button and send inquiries for accountability into the recycle bin.
    And Deborah is correct – just who do you suggest she go to for answers?
    Why can’t you give her any credit?
    You really throw the word “wolf” around and slap it on people recklessly.
    You know what they say about folks who cry “Wolf” too many times!

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Sorry for saying that Debs.
    I didn’t mean in my last comment that there is nothing truthful about TA’s reply to Debs, but I won’t trust this man for a second. He is a deceiver.
    I definitely apologize for assuming Hans Kristian was a RC priest, because of that single source provided by Marion that referred to him as a “priest”.

    I think you did the right thing. You contacted the appropriate source, and you simply posted their response and drew your conclusion

    We give all praise to Jesus Christ for TBC’s decision to scrap the book.
    It is a step in the right direction. Will they go all the way? For example, will they look into the case of Tozer (Carolyn wrote: >>Paul..Tozer’s Recommended Reading List…I find damning, not inspirational….I’m eating my words as I speak)? And all others?

    I wish to thank you Debs for being instrumental to get this very problematic book out of circulation. Again, my main concern is just that ONE little sheep of the Lord out there who might have been led astray by the content of this book (Murray–>Law–>Boehme)

    Also, I commend you Debs for allowing this discussion to happen on your blog, even when you disagree on this with some of the commentators (Marion and myself foremost). Not may bloggers will allow that as Carolyn rightly pointed.

    In final analysis, if you find that what has been discussed here is slanderous, misleading, false teaching…, it is your call to do whatever you want with this article.
    Personally I would leave it out there for anyone to make his/her own judgement.

    TBC’s decision to scrap that book (which was last copyrighted in 2007-hard copy and 2012-kindle) was almost predictable, because the case of this book is way too obvious.
    It corroborates what Marion wrote earlier:

    Where the deceivers hide is the “show us anything unbiblical we have said or written” mantra (so they can “fix it”…obviously they miss some details that the diligent are able to pick up. “Fixing it” covers their nakedness, making it more difficult for the next prudent readers to discern their “spirit.”…they DO NOT want us looking at what they “do” and “who” they “run with.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Paul.

    I pray that you can see that Dave Hunt is not the enemy here. There are many more out there stealing souls at an alarming rate sending people straight to hell, and these are the ones our attention should be focused on.

    I am now closing comments :)