Mark Driscoll’s RESURGENCE and EMERGENCE with Catholicism

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How To Practice Meditative Prayer - to Practice Meditative Prayer

Winfield Bevins   Acts 29 Pastor – Church of the Outer Banks

In Hebrew thought, to meditate upon the Scriptures is to quietly repeat them, giving oneself entirely to God, and abandoning outside distractions. The two main things that we are told to meditate on are God’s word and God’s goodness. Paul tells us, “Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things” (Philippians 4:8).

[DTW:  Oh so the word ‘think’ in that verse now justifies practicing occult practices.  SATANIC PRACTICES are NOT honourable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, of excellence, and worthy of praise unless you are speaking about another god, which you are.  Think about that.  Now, now, don’t go sit on the floor in some quiet place, just right where you are, right now, use your brain (that GOD gave you to THINK with) and think about it.  Then pick up your Bible and go find some real scripture to back up this nonsence – you will find none.]

We see the difference between the active and contemplative Christian life illustrated in the story of Mary and Martha in Luke 10:38-42. Mary sat at the feet of Jesus and heard his word, while Martha was distracted with much serving. Jesus said that Mary had chosen the best thing because she sat at his feet and was not distracted. Meditative prayer is exactly this, sitting at the feet of Jesus and hearing his word. This is a wonderful example of the art of meditative prayer. We must allow time to let the Lord speak to us through meditating on him and his word in prayer.

[DTW:  you know, sometimes I sit quietly and read the utter rubbish that is written by people who profess to be Christian.   Please note the big difference between your wild imagination and the truth as written as clear as daylight in the Bible.  “Mary, who was seated at the Lord’s feet, listening to His word.   But Martha was distracted with all her preparations…”   Jesus Christ who is the Word made flesh was speaking (using his mouth to talk) and Mary was listening.  Nothing mystical about this.  Nothing at all.  Nowhere does Jesus say to Martha that Mary made the right choice because she chose to avoided being ‘distracted’ when listening to Him speak.  No, Jesus says to Martha  “Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things; but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”   This means that Mary chose to listen to believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God and by believing in Him she received salvation, eternal life.  Jesus is saying to Martha, you should not be worried about things on earth, you should be worried about where you are going to spend eternity and that Mary made the good choice.”]

Steps for Meditative Prayer

  1. Designate a quiet place. In a world full of distractions, we need a quiet place where we can allow God to speak to us. The most effective place to pray is where you are least likely to be disturbed.
  2. Give yourself 20-30 minutes. Many people only spend a few minutes each day in prayer. Very few people actually spend time in meditative prayer. It takes time to drown out the cares of the world, sit, prayerfully meditate on God’s word, and then allow him to speak to us.
  3. Choose Scripture to prayerfully meditate on. Prayerfully select a passage of Scripture that means something to you. Let it either focus on the goodness of God, the promises of God, or the worship of God.
  4. Allow God to speak to you. This is the hardest part. Many people never hear the Lord speak to them simply because they don’t allow him to. We need to sit and listen for the voice of the Lord. Samuel was open to hearing from the Lord (1 Samuel 3). He said, “Speak, for your servant hears.”

[DTW:  *silent* ………….  oh sorry, I was not meditating I was just thinking that one has to be completely deceived (or in the process of falling into deception ) to fall for this practice as being ‘Christian’ and so called approved by Biblical teachers.   My dear readers, please note that if you do this, you are opening yourself up to demonic spirits who will come and speak to you disguised as an ‘angel of light’. In other words, you will get something else speaking to you – NOT GOD.   You would get all freaked out if something that pretended to be God came and made it’s way into your thoughts?  Well start freaking out, cos this is what you are going to get.  STOP!  Repent to Jesus Christ the Son of God if you have gotten yourself involved in this stuff – get out please.   This is NOT Biblical and NOW WHERE in the Bible did Jesus tell us to do any of this.  Biblical prayer vs. what these people are trying to shove down your throat are two different things. 

As I type this, I am praying asking Jesus Christ to guide me as I write this. Your relationship with Jesus Christ should be a normal conversation in prayer.  I am typing, I have books piled up that I am reading, I have the bible open, highlighting pens, I got the TV on in the background (quite loud I must admit) and amazingly (*Emergent’s gasp*) I am still able to speak to my Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ right now and I know He hears me and I praise Him right now as I write this.  I think it’s also called multitasking;  being able to speak and think and do other things at the same. Obviously when studying scripture I read and make notes all the while I have the guidance of the Holy Spirit showing me what scripture means, He helps me understand. 

When I drive my car I speak to Jesus about my day ahead.  When I get to work I speak to Jesus about why I have such a horrible job, but thank Him never the less because it could be worse.  When I get lost while driving I am the first one to panic, and yet I speak to Jesus;  I ask him to help me, keep me safe.  Can you imagine if I need to get out of the car in a dangerous area, sit on the pavement in a Lotus position, chanting my mantra:  ‘AUMMM I am lost and I am no where near step 4, what am I going to do, I am still  only an apprentice”  Repeat 100x for 30min.    

Step 4 is the hardest part, they tell you – Hearing the Lord speak to you.   Well oddly enough, the bible says that salvation is not difficult at all nor is it a burden to obtain.]    

Matthew 11:30   “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

1 John 5:3   For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.”

Matthew 23:4    “ They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.”

Well I can see why so many people will get caught up in this horrendous practice (disguised as Christian).  Because they are right, 90% of people who call themselves Christian have actually never heard the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their lives.  Or, have you and you ignored Him?  And these are the ones who will be caught up into this evil trap.  And chances are you will hear something alright, but as I said above, it will not be the God of the Bible who sent His only Son to die on the cross for our sins, for those who chose to believe.  


Media, Networks, Partners, Authors and Friends who support The Resurgence:

  • Mike Anderson:  Director of the
  • Mark Driscoll –  Mars Hill Church, Seattle
  • Tim Smith –  Mars Hill Church, Seattle
  • Justin Holcomb – Resurgence Training Center / Mars Hill Church, Seattle
  • Jeremy Carr – The Well,  Augusta
  • Matt Chandler – The Village Church
  • Ed Marcells –  Terra Nova Church / Coordinator for Acts 29 Network
  • Time Gaydos (Tim Gaydos) –  Mars Hill Church, Seattle
  • Scott Thomas – Acts 29 Network
  • Joel Virgo – Church of Christ the King, Brighton
  • Winfield Bevins – Church of the Outer Banks
  • Resound
  • Retrain
  • Desiring God  –  John Piper Ministry
  • The Gospel Coalition –  Mark Driscoll and John Piper are Council Members along with many others


Deborah (Discerning the World)

Discerning the World is an internet Discernment ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa that was founded by Deborah du Rand in 2008. Tom Lessing joined Deborah in May 2013. Tom Lessing founded the website “Waak en Bid/Watch and Pray” which was closed in 2013 and articles moved across to DTW.

85 Responses

  1. Pieter says:

    Hi DTW
    Great post as always!
    Since stumbling on your blog I never knew about all these “practices” out there. Meditative prayer, so what next…that we can only “listen” to Gods words and forget the Bible? Why would we want to “listen” to God through meditation when we have all His Words in the Bible? Come on guys! Open your eyes to this deception! Why would anyone believe this garbage????? If it is not instructed in Gods Word then do not do it! Period!!!! And don’t fall for the “But He speaks in Christ’s Name”. We are so gullible to fall for that and is actually moving back to Roman Catholic mid-evil times where the pope/new age pastor is our Biblical interpreter. So next would be to chuck out the word of God and get all our revelations from meditation.
    When Jesus instructed us on prayer in Matthew 6:5-13, do we read anything about meditation? No we don’t. And don’t come with the modern times crap. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. How ignorant of us to think that He should change to our modern times.
    I, personally almost fell for all these crap. Don’t get drawn into this because another man is saying so. Go to God, His Word, and His wonderful gift of salvation from a Loving Father. Repent, and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you.

  2. Mark Penrith says:

    I’ve read my namesake’s article a few times and… well, other than abusing Luke 10:38-42 I’m not sure he’s that far off. A quite place, designated time, Scripture focus and interaction with the Lord (I’m assuming that He doesn’t mean a direct revelatory interaction) is all good stuff.

    It’s also not far from the way Luther envisaged prayer. I wrote my thinking of both meditation and Luther’s prayer here ( and here (

  3. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Thanks Pieter

    Also there is a lot of scritpure not just the Matthew one but others regarding NOT doing meditation.

    I will list them a bit later.

    And you are absolutely 100% correct. We are going right back into the hands of Roman Catholicism. The old saying of, ‘All roads lead back to Rome’ was not just an old saying.
    Thankfully I am not on that road.

  4. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Hey Mark

    I hope you voted in my world’s most accurate poll? Are Catholics Christians? If not, please do. And get everyone you know to do the same.

    Before I start, you know me well enough by know that I say it like it is and DON’T beat around the bush so… take a deep breath (normal breathing please) and continue reading.

    So I went to read your articles and the picture with the person on the rock sitting in a meditative position (lotus position) was just so fitting.

    You use Gen 24–30as is speaks about meditating and you use Ps 1–13and 1 Tim 4.

    Righty, let’s go see what it says:

    Gen 24:62-63 “62 Now Isaac had come from going to Beer-lahai-roi; for he was living in the Negev. 63 Isaac went out to meditate in the field toward evening; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, camels were coming.”

    OK. Please tell me where it say anywhere in the above verse let alone the entire book of Genesis that Isaac was possibly: sitting cross legged, posture straight up, arms stretched out, hands and fingers in classic meditation position, visualising/picturing another universe far far away…

    As you said this is what a lecturer made the class do that you attend and somehow got the idea that this was Biblical. ““Close your eyes,” said the lecturer to the class (finally something I wanted to do), “and picture another you far away in the middle of the universe…”

    I think Isaac had his eyes closed and was praying – he was not falling into a trance as he very easily opened his eyes and saw camels coming in his direction. He was also praying to God and not visualising himself in another universe far far away dreaming what it would be like to be on the Starship Enterprise. Also remember now, you are taking verses from Genesis (Israel under the covenant of Law) they sacrificed as well, and did many things that God commanded them to do at the time. They kept the Sabbath. But besides that, meditating (closing your eyes, and speaking/praying to God through Jesus Christ) is NOT what you have described in your article.

    You have taken TWO different practices and you are trying very hard (not succeeding though) to combine the two and saying that a PAGAN way of praying is the same as Biblical prayer.

    The caption under your picture of the meditating person says,

    “The Age in which we live is characterised by adoption. Adoption of ideas, adoption of experience and adoption of ritual. Christian meditation is at the cusp of this phenomenon.”

    Where are you adopting these ideas from? If they are in the Bible then it’s not something new eh? ;) Yet these are NEW ideas for a NEW AGE. These ideas, experiences, rituals and practices come from somewhere else. Youuuuu know exactly what I am taking about Mark. Come be honest now.

    Next verses….

    Psalm 1:1-2
    1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
    Nor stand in the path of sinners,
    Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
    2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
    And in His law he meditates day and night

    Hmmm, when you think? You think day and night do you not? (except when you are sleeping). The verses above is saying; Blessed are those who are not wicked and do not sin but have removed themselves from those who sin and practice pagan rituals (like meditation). God takes pleasure in those who seek Him and the Truth (the Gospel of Jesus Christ) and have the Holy Spirit abide in them Who brings conviction day and night. Again, what the Israelites had to do under law vs the New covenant are two different things. BUT they did NOT meditate either – they prayed to GOD and thought about God’s Word. And now again we have the situation, WHERE DOES IT SAY that meditating day and night means sitting cross legged, etc, etc, etc.?

    Psalm 4:3-4
    3 But know that the LORD has set apart the godly man for Himself;
    The LORD hears when I call to Him.
    4 Tremble, and do not sin;
    Meditate in your heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.
    5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness,
    And trust in the LORD.

    Be still Mark and think about what you are doing. You have taken occult teachings and using the name of Jesus to lead people astray. You know your heart Mark. And you know very well that you do not even have to go and sit on your bed to figure this one out. When I was little my parents would send me to my room to ‘think’ about what I had done. Then I would sit there crying, I knew I had done wrong and I was sorry. Of course it took my parents a while to calm down. Fortunately for us Jesus Christ is far quicker to forgive us for our wickedness -if we are genuinely sorry. If not, well “3 … know that the LORD has set apart the godly man for Himself”.

    Ok, what’s next…

    1 Timothy 4:15-15

    15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
    16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Meditate upon these things? What things; 1 Tim 4:13 “13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.”

    Ok, I am going to ask the same question now for a 3rd time. WHERE DOES IT SAY that meditating day and night means sitting cross legged, etc, etc, etc.?

    Ok, based on 1 Tim 4 you said in your article:

    “So, how can I, as a Christian, meditate?”

    Well grab a Bible. Find a praise Psalm (Psalm 145 would be a great place to start). Read it, mull over it, study it, think on it, understand it, chew on it and pray to God all the while. That’s it, that’s meditation.”

    Tell me something… WHY are you explaining how to meditate when throughout HISTORY Christians have been successfully praying and receiving salvation with no problems at all. They have been HEARING GOD, who is the Holy Spirit that comes to abide in them that convicts us to stay away from evil practices like meditation?

    Tell me, after you have mulled over Psalm 145 50,000 times, chewed on it and spat it out, what exactly have you accomplished?

    Mark, you are trying very hard to make excuses for yourself; that you want to follow New Age teaching (because this is what you desire) but at the same time remain ‘Christian’. Unfortunately you can’t have it both ways. You are either FOR JESUS CHRIST or you are AGAINST HIM.

    2 Corinthians 13:5

    5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognise this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

    Revelation 3:15-16

    15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
    16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

    Isaiah 5:20

    20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
    Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
    Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    Christian meditation/prayer tells us to LOOK TO GOD, LOOK TO JESUS CHRIST for our salvation, our help.

    The New Age meditation tells us to look inward for your salvation.

    Matthew 6:7-15

    7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
    8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
    Our Father in heaven,
    Hallowed be Your name…

    Contemplative Prayer is not Biblical prayer at all, the meditation you are endorsing is leading the mind to an altered state of consciousness. Soon you will start experiencing things, and feeling things, and your senses will be heightened, etc. New Age prayer/meditation is based on experiences rather than sound doctrine. Oh look we are back at your verse again: 1 Tim 4:13 “13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.” What does it say? Give attendance to doctrine, give attendance to the ENTIRE WORD OF GOD. Not experiences and little rituals.

    1 John 5:14-15

    “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”

    Hmmm very very different to what you are trying to promote as being biblical.

    In your article: How to pray when you’ve got nothing to say

    You say: “How do you pray? I often use the acrostic ACTS: Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving and Supplication.”

    You sure have your rituals down to a fine art…

    Just going back to the very first question I asked, and yeah I know a vote is supposed to be ‘secret’ but hey were are in Africa and I am allowed to guess that you said ‘YES’ right? You see my poll is going to tell us a lot about what is going on in the world today.

  5. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    I think your article and my comment deserves to be in an article :)

  6. Mark Penrith says:

    Hi Deborah,

    Have you intentionally misrepresented what I wrote?

    I most certainly wasn’t advocating contemplative meditation or any Eastern practise for that matter. I described a work function I attended where this procedure had been practised, I explained that I didn’t participate, I described asking someone else what they thought of the affair and then I recorded my response, “You didn’t think it all a bit… New Age?”

    You taken everything I said out of context and have falsely presented my intended meaning. My point was summarized in the last paragraph,

    ”…grab a Bible. Find a praise Psalm (Psalm 145 would be a great place to start). Read it, mull over it, study it, think on it, understand it, chew on it and pray to God all the while. That’s it, that’s meditation.”

    The image I chose for the post is employed for the same reason you’ve used an image title “HOW TO PRACTISE MEDITATIVE PRAYER”. It’s related to the content not my believe.

    On Catholicism I’ve written plenty but perhaps the clearest content I’ve penned is found here (

    Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving and Supplication embodies an appropriate way to approach God the Father through Jesus Christ His Son. Most of the Psalms contain similar elements as well as many of the prayers in the New Testament. Can you truly deny that these elements are Biblical?

  7. Michael Anthony says:

    Quote from the article…

    >>> ‘Allow God to speak to you’ >>>

    God has already spoken , first through the prophets and now through his son, also by the Holy Spirit inspired word of the apostles. I beleive God the Holy Spirit can guide you, lead you into all truth, make his ways known to you, teach you through his word, warn you through others and show you things to come, correct, discipline and chastise you, give you an unction, give you peace about something, bring you comfort…etc. But ‘speak’ to you? Nah….wait, let me think about this again…..*thinks*……wait-for-it; here’s my answer; nah.

    This is what the reformation was all about – the sufficiency of scripture. God has already spoken and addressed every issue. The result? We abide in his word daily and search the scriptures. Need Wisdom? Ask God for it, he wil give it to you. Etc..

    I am sure not everybody will agree. But this is where the problem lies; the exact definition of ‘God speaking’ to you. It creates all sorts of problems and if not properly checked it is a recipe for the worst kind of seduction and deception.

    Someone may quote ‘my sheep know my voice’ but remember that he (Jesus Christ, the good sheperd) also does not change; his word is forever established. If he does speak it is through his already-established word.

    Touchy point, but I have had my fill of God told me this and God told me that. Normally by people that do not have any solid grounding in what God has already said.

    Ever heard this one; ‘My child, you have been especially chosen (for such a time as this or something similar), I have put a special calling on you and I will do great signs and wonders through you.’

    Is that God? Nope – notice on who the focus is on; self. Who does it elevate. God? No, man.

    We obey the Gospel, he directs our paths. You are welcome to correct me.

  8. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    You see, you write in such a manner that it’s difficult for anyone to actually say ‘oh that’s not right’ or ‘oh that’s not right’ because you have put little ‘get me out of jail free cards’ here and there to use as backup and then you very easily turn around and say, ‘oh but…you are misinterpreting me’

    So, I’ll leave it at that.

  9. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> But ’speak’ to you? Nah….wait, let me think about this again…..*thinks*……wait-for-it; here’s my answer; nah.

    I concur.

  10. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Do you not understand that what you are playing with now, let’s call it, baby steps meditation is going to lead you and those believe you into deeper things?

    The picture I used came from Mark Driscoll’s website. I did not choose that picture.

    Anyhow, you advocate meditation, and what you describe doing, taking psalms and reading it, mulling over it…etc. It the start of meditation. One day you will be doing other types of mediation because you needed something more fulfilling.

    You see the fact that you can even endorse any kind of meditation other than normal biblical prayer is what I find scary. If anything I think is even remotely not kosher, I don’t touch it, for I know the consequences of sin. So why are you dipping your toes in forbidden waters?

  11. Mark Penrith says:

    Hi Deborah,

    As a kid I always had to get the last word in. I apologise. It’s a failing.

    My third last paragraph reads, “Nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that meditation involves visualising, repetition or the use of mantras or any other Eastern Religious influenced rituals or rights.” That’s directly at odds with the way you chose to represent what I wrote, no two ways about it.

    I’m a bit sheltered from the happenings in the big bad world and have only heard Mark Driscoll’s preach once, so I hardly know the man, but, as I asked above, I’d like your opinion, “I’ve read my namesake’s article a few times and… well, other than abusing Luke 10:38-42 I’m not sure he’s that far off. A quite place, designated time, Scripture focus and interaction with the Lord (I’m assuming that He doesn’t mean a direct revelatory interaction) is all good stuff. ” … isn’t it?

    You needn’t answer this evening as it’s getting late and even heresy busters like youself need their beauty sleep :).

  12. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Took your advice and slept lol

    You need to go and do more digging into what Mark and friends are REALLY advocating. And it’s not what you think. Never the less, normal prayer is what is approved in scripture not meditation.

    Tell me something, honestly now. What do you get out of reading the same passage over and over again, thinking about it and praying at the same time? Can you explain to me in great detail exactly what you do. Because in the Bible no one did what you describe. Mark speaks about getting to step 4 – hearing God’s voice. Is the Holy Spirit not abiding in you when you are saved and you hear His voice? What Mark is endorsing is the ‘unsaved’ version of hearing ‘god’s voice. Which means people who fall for this have opened themselves up completely to the demonic.

    Heresy buster over and out.

  13. Merry Helper says:

    Alo Alo

    Good fella’s
    Words: Eastern, Body positions, catholic, Repetition and Meditation.
    To me these words have been used to describe things that have added tremendous value to my life, may they bless your life too.

    Deborah, “Are Catholics Christians?”. Methinks you seek to mock Catholics, why?

    In a deep sense of Love

  14. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Marry Helper

    >> Words: Eastern, Body positions, catholic, Repetition and Meditation.
    To me these words have been used to describe things that have added tremendous value to my life, may they bless your life too.

    No it’s quite alright thank you. I have Jesus Christ the Son of God.

    >> Deborah, “Are Catholics Christians?”. Methinks you seek to mock Catholics, why?

    No I seek to find out how many people think Catholics are Chrisian. It’s called a survey.

  15. Michael Anthony says:

    Merry H,

    Yeah, and over here we treat Mary as just another sinner saved by Grace (shock, horror), just like everybody else. BTW, you know that she had more children after Jesus, right? She did not stay a virgin. Plus Jesus addressed her as ‘woman’ at one stage.

    So, those things (Eastern, Body positions, catholic, Repetition and Meditation), what would that make Jesus Christ be amongst all that? An accessory?

    It is not the cross + some other practice that brings salvation. It is the work of the cross alone.

    Mock catholics? No. Why would anybody want to do that? I would however warn them that some of their practices are not biblical, in fact demonic. Worshipping the ‘queen of heaven’ is tempting God almighty’s anger. (Jeremiah 7:18-19)

    >>> To me these words have been used to describe things that have added tremendous value to my life, may they bless your life too. >>>

    Exactly how have they blessed your life?

  16. Michael Anthony says:

    Here is an exercise.

    Go, for instance, to and use a well-known bible version (ie new King James). Type in the word ‘meditate’ and you get 10 instances (all OT) then type in ‘meditation’ and you get 9 instances (all OT).

    In every single context this word is used about being mindful of, to consider deeply, to comtenplate, etc. Not one instance where prayer is even mentioned in the same sentence or paragraph. Pretty straightfoward. You would think….

  17. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> Pretty straightfoward. You would think….

    Well you would think so..

    >> In every single context this word is used about being mindful of, to consider deeply, to comtenplate, etc.

    Um…you’re not helping me here dude LOL, cos this is what they ‘the contemplaters’ will tell you too. But those 19 instances of meditate in the Bible are NOT anything like how ‘the contemplaters’ meditate.

    For instance taking a passage of Scripture and reading it over and over and over again, thinking, thinking, chewing on it, mulling over it? I’ve never heard of anything like this before. When I read scripture I get it, like 1+1 = 2. Simple. When I pray, I pray, I do not meditate.

    So when Mark comes back *pokes Mark* I wanna know from him what he actually accomplishes after ‘meditating’ the so called Biblical way.

  18. Michael Anthony says:


    Let me hmm, contemplate on that first.

    OK, done con…(can’t say the word). The context of most of those scriptures is consider, meditate on the word of God or the law of God. In its simplest context it means to study and analyse these things. I am sure if one did not understand a scripture the fisrt time ’tis perfectly OK to read it a second time. Perfectly OK to memorize scripture. But to repeat it a third time? And a 4th? And a 5th? Till you become dizzy and go ainga! ainga! thinking you are now plugged into some cosmic power? No.

    Bible study is bible sudy and prayer is prayer, two different things.

    If one meditates on a scripture and focuses only that scripture, and makes it go over and over in the mind then that would be treating the word of God as mystical and this is nothing more than sanitized magic.

    Making a scripture repetitive is making it into an object, making it into an object is centering. Centering means God is out of the picture and you have made that object god.

    Fine line this thing.

  19. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Ahh much better lol.

  20. Merry Helper says:

    Alo Alo

    Coming at ya like Cleopatra.

    Deborah after your Catholic Survey, consider doing: How many people think Grass is Green?

    Catholics get a lot wrong as do other groups, Traditions are their biggest down. Then again will you have Christmas this yaer? Is it in Scripture? HAHAHAHA, oh tradition.

    Methinks the way the Steps for Meditative Prayer are layed out is accurate and can add value, use it /don’t use it, one often finds the truth on the path they chose to avoid it, see either way they are focused on it, the Truth that is, and this eed is sown.

    Brother Michael Anthony.
    Although your wording can be ambiguous at times, tis mostly accurate, very fierce though. To tease, I put his too you: Mary the Mother of God.

    Should you seek to know my twisted self beta:

    All the Blessings

  21. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    >> Deborah after your Catholic Survey, consider doing: How many people think Grass is Green?

    No my next one is: Are you happy that you are being forced into a One World Government whether you like it or not?

    >> Catholics get a lot wrong as do other groups, Traditions are their biggest down. Then again will you have Christmas this year? Is it in Scripture? HAHAHAHA, oh tradition.

    No, but it’s a free holiday and is treated as such. Family get together with lots to eat. As for being a pagan holiday with the 25th Dec being the birth of the Sun God throughout the centuries from Babylon till now…who cares. I do not worry about superstitious things for my God created ALL and ALL the EARTH contains. I give thanks to Jesus Christ the Son of God and through Him all is blessed and all Glory is His.

    1 Corinthians 10:26

    1 Corinthians 10:28-32
    28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake;
    29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?
    30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?
    31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
    32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

    >> Methinks the way the Steps for Meditative Prayer are layed out is accurate and can add value, use it /don’t use it, one often finds the truth on the path they chose to avoid it, see either way they are focused on it, the Truth that is, and this eed is sown.

    Will you denounce the Mother Church as being false for you have chosen another path more fitting for yourself? Whether you choose east or west, north or south, all roads lead back to Rome, so save yourself the trip and just stay there. Your Mother Earth, Gaiya is once again the Queen of Heaven and all paths lead back to her…

    You have sown no seed on this blog, everything you have said has already been spoken off in other articles and found seriously wanting.

    Teasing by saying “Mary the Mother of God”. You can’t be serious? None of this affects us. It’s those caught up in this horrid religion that we warn to get out of. You do not know Jesus Christ the Son of God, would you like to know him personally that you may receive TRUE salvation and not empty lies based on false ‘feelings and experiences”?

  22. Amanda says:


    I’ve read my namesake’s article a few times and… well, other than abusing Luke 10:38-42 I’m not sure he’s that far off.

    Charlie Broxton used the same text from Luke in a sermon called: “Give Peace a Chance: Lectio Divina” Chris Rosebrough from Pirate Christian Radio reviewed it here.
    Dr. Johan Geyser also used the same text. You can read what Thomas over at Watch and Pray wrote about that dreadful event: A biblical appraisal of the Mosaic Congress held at the Mosaic Church in Fairlands, Johannesburg (4 – 5 Sept. 2009) (Part 2) here.

    Of course, the effect of this sitting is a transformation. Its not just to make you better. Look at what happened to Mary after her sitting. We get it in John 12, after the resurrection of Lazarus they’ve got a meeting; Martha the activist, its Simon the leper, it is Judas the thief, it is Lazarus . . . the ex-corpse; your typical Sunday morning congregation, you know. And she comes in and breaks the flask with the very expensive perfume and she anoints Jesus, and of course there’s this one argument that ends all arguments — the poor, you could have given it to the poor. And Jesus says, No! You do not understand what she did. She was preparing me for my burial. Two things: she had an insight that none of the other disciples had about the death, the meaning of the death of Jesus. Nobody could see it. The only person . . . was a woman and it was Mary that did the sitting. The sitting prepared and helped her to listen to Jesus at a deep inner level and to hear things that other people couldn’t hear. And it inspired her to action, to love, to love. . . . Jesus said: because of what Mary did I am more prepared for my death. Because of what Mary did; the way that she loved and that she expressed her extravagant love for me I am more ready to die now. We can help to prepare each other for our death because if you love you are ready . . . Nobody would have been bothered if she did it after Jesus’ death, no problem, but to do it while He’s alive? She had this new capacity to love and she had this new insight. You see, she had a different presence. . . It is not necessary doing this extravagant, extraordinary things. Its the ordinary but extraordinary ordinary. Out of being flows a new way of doing. The old tradition says, it has to do with unity with God and some people will say, no no, unity sounds like one with God against everything else in the world. Perhaps its more of unitive seeing; to see God everywhere in everything — to see God in everything.

    And Session 2: Transfiguration: Up and down the mountain – Trevor Hudson
    Mark, you said:

    My third last paragraph reads, “Nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that meditation involves visualising, repetition or the use of mantras or any other Eastern Religious influenced rituals or rights.”

    Then discern Thomas’ take on Session 3: Being a radical pilgrim and prophet – Stephan Joubert.

    Have you noticed Joubert’s subtle demotion of Jesus Christ from the Son of the living God to a sage who supposedly never linked onto the purity story in Leviticus but opted for the wisdom story in which no one is excluded because He supposedly never bothered about “who is saved [and] who is not?” What utter, utter nonsense! Proverbs, the epitome of God’s wisdom to which Stephan Joubert often referred, explicitly declares that “he who is wise, wins souls” (Proverbs 11:30). What Stephan Joubert purports to be wise is not wisdom at all but sheer foolishness. His entire eisegesis with regard to Jesus Christ’s attitude to the lost and the saved, is an outright denial of the prime purpose of his incarnation which is to seek and to save the lost (Luke 19:10). It is the fool who cares not “who is saved and who is not.” It is the wise who dearly cares about the winning of souls so that those who are lost may be saved. There is only one conclusion to be made and that is that the emergent fraternity are not seekers after or followers after wisdom but fools who do not care who is lost and who is saved, and the most disturbing thing about this is that they are making a Christ after their own image — a false Christ who shuns purity and does not care who is saved and who is not. South Africa! What else do these false apostles and prophets need to teach you before you realize they are leading you along primrose paths into the darkest recesses of the abyss?

    Voila! Jesus the Sage of God is no longer the Saviour of the World who cares about who is saved and who is not, but a wisdom teacher or The World Teacher who teaches you how to be a Christ-follower, irrespective of the religion you adhere to. And now you can better understand why Stephan Joubert could say such an unbiblical thing as the following.

    It [the Emergent Church] involves people who have a passion to say [that] the world and its culture in our generation need to be won back to Christ. And therefore I am not going to criticise their culture but I’m going to engage it. Therefore, I’m not going to take on their spirituality and postulate my truths. I’m going to listen to what they have to say because I can prove [to them] the truth ad infinitum as I did in the 1960’s, and I can debate with a Buddhist or a Hindu and sit there with them and say ‘here is my truth, here are my stuff.’ But now as an Emerging Church guy I will say [to them], let us listen . . . I’m not going to try and change you but you also have the right to hear how I feel and I’m not going to make any excuses for who I am. I’m not going to force my religion down your throat.

    I know it takes a strong stomach to go through this, but perhaps it will open your eyes a little to what is going on right under your nose inside the church in South Africa and not in “the big bad world” out there somewhere.

  23. Merry Helper says:

    Alo Alo

    Debs thanx for the constructive angles in your last script. I do not attend Catholic church but that said methinks you have digested alot of Prperganda wrt this Organisation. You’d do well to write down all your challenges about it, and Meet with a local parish priest to seek another objective angle, PS: Mary was the mother of Jesus, Jesus was God,that is an important point.

    Lemme Guess: You have recieved True salvation.
    Are you in heaven with Yahweh already. Oh you have just been assured of your salvation, kewl. Will you be Judged then or do you bypass that?


  24. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    >> Mary was the mother of Jesus, Jesus was God

    Yes, Mary a human woman was the mother of Jesus Christ. Mary is NOT holy and has NOfuture in the salvation of mankind. There is no other mediator except for Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus Christ, born of the Holy Spirit – Jesus IS God, not past tense as you put it “Jesus was God”

    >> You’d do well to write down all your challenges about it, and Meet with a local parish priest to seek another objective angle.

    I have the Word of God. I don’t need to seek man made advice.

    As for the rest of your comment. I can ask the same of you: Will you be judged or do you bypass that too. No one is exempt from His judgement. It says so in His word. You should read it sometime.

    Anyhow, you have the freedom to accept or deny Jesus Christ. I can’t force you to believe in Him. He has done nothing to hurt you, why do you hate Him so much?

  25. Merry Helper says:

    Jesus is God [twas a context ting]
    True every knee will bow and sheep and goats split. uust having a laff at you word Saved [The passed tense of it,haha [twisd humour]

    Your last para:
    Free choice, forced belief, hahaha
    Jesus above all, amen.

    Thankyou for reading my replies, till next time

  26. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    I think you need to cut back on whatever you are smoking, it’s not good for you. really.

  27. Amanda says:


    Are you agreeing with those two statements or finding fault with them?

    Neither. I am inviting you to follow the clues and connect the dots. Then you will begin to understand why the sheep are fleeing the dangerous Dutch Reformed Church.

    More clues. The fourth participant at Mosaiek was Ron Martoia. See what you think.

    I spoke at a spirituality congress in South Africa where quite honestly I was a spiritual peon amongst giants. Willem Nichol, Trevor Hudson, Johan Geyser, Gys Du Plessis and Stephan Joubert all my elders and all more deeply experienced, were the docket of speakers at this conversation on the what and how of spirituality.

    More than ever I am convinced apophatic spirituality, Cloud of Unknowing type of stuff is part of the missing pattern in our formation. We are clueless how to do Psalm 46.10 spirituality and instead of learning to be still (an interior condition) I think we have confused it with sitting still (an exterior posture).

    The most dramatic thing I am reminded of on a nearly daily basis is just how modern, textual and information our spirituality is. Interestingly this is not where Bonaventure sat (think Soul’s Journey to God), or St Teresa of Avila (Interior Castle) or San Juan de La Cruz (St. John of the Cross) or earlier still John Cassian’s Conferences. I was reminded by these great mentors I shared the platform with just how rare the work is on interior silence is where
    we can watch the constructed egoic self in action. Where we take insight from what arises in our awareness and how to move toward the letting go of a centering practice (the main point of my talk Silence is the First Language of God {a quote from St John of the Cross})

    We must must must move beyond the textual addiction of modernity and move toward the place of quiet. Only there can we see the judger gene, the real issue raised in the Genesis 1-3 narrative, and learn the letting go work that needs to be done for us to be deeply formed.

    More. :

    I am sure you are all familiar with the experiments done by Richard Davidson and Monks? If you don’t remember, this is the professor that hooked experienced meditating monks and demonstrated actual changes in the brain. Here is the Wired magazine version [ Links in the original]

    Meditators actually are rewiring circuitry in a permanent way. Bringing lasting peace and calm, more equanimity, less reactionary responses etc… this is one of the only things we know that rewires the brain like this. Centering prayer, a very specific type of meditative prayer creates a mental model softening that enables us to let go, a critical skill in being able to bear fruit of the spirit.

    …Transformation starts with RENEWING THE MIND a biblical notion that is found in every tradition where seeing the transformation of the human being was considered important.

  28. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    If all else fails on the other end. Can just post stuff under it’s own articles.

  29. Mark Penrith says:


    I don’t think I understand your point. I wrote:

    1) Mark Driscoll abused Luke 10:38-42
    2) “Nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that meditation involves visualising, repetition or the use of mantras or any other Eastern Religious influenced rituals or rights.”

    Are you agreeing with those two statements or finding fault with them?

  30. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Oh you are back, great :)

    Can you perhaps tell me why reading pslams or any other passage over and over again, thinking about it, meditating on it is something that is considered different to normal biblical prayer? What do you find different about the two? In other words, do you feel different when doing it? Does one feel more powerful than the other? I am asking this because ‘meditation’ has been seperated from prayer – so they are two different practices. What benefits, feelings, upliftment do you get from what you consider to be biblical meditation.

    Gosh I am having a bad day today, I hope my question to you makes sense.

  31. Mark Penrith says:


    I had to prepare a sermon for Sunday. It keeps me busy.

    There’s a reason why God chose the Hebrew words translated meditate rather than using the very common word used for prayer. He desired to express this form of interaction between us and Him in a unique way. It is He that separates the two words not me.

    As for what it looks like, please remember I am not advocating visualising, repetition or the use of mantras or any other Eastern Religious influenced rituals or rights. I am advocating pondering, thinking, considering, dwelling upon.

    Neither prayer nor meditation is qualitatively more powerful. Both are equally appropriate in their place. Both are described and advocated in Scripture.

    As for “feeling” and “upliftment” God desires us to worship Him in spirit and in truth. Part of our response to God will always include emotion. There’s ample Biblical mandate for that I’m sure you’d agree.

    I hope your day gets better.

    @ Michael,

    You said, “Go, for instance, to and use a well-known bible version (ie new King James). Type in the word ‘meditate’ and you get 10 instances (all OT) then type in ‘meditation’ and you get 9 instances (all OT).”

    Are you trying to wilfully mislead people or do you not know how to use Go and look up 1 Timothy 4:15. The Greek word is μελετάω and it literally means to revolve in the mind.

  32. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    In this day and age there is a very very very big shift towards meditation. Do you think it is not better to just not use the word meditation at all and just stick to the basics that never causes confusion and can get people ‘pondering, thinking, considering, dwelling upon…contemplating’ on more than what they should be?

    Nothing is what is should be anymore. The gospel of Jesus Christ is no longer spoken out of truthful mouths (not referring to you here) just in general. We think and consider and contemplate and ponder on things all day long -as I type this I am pondering why you have to advoate meditation.

    You did not answer me :) I want to know; when you sit down, do you go find a find a still spot somewhere and you meditation on pslams, etc, what exactly do you do?

    You see Mark the thing is… Your first comment on this article stated that what Mark Driscoll’s Resurgence group promotes as meditation is NOT FAR OFF from the truth (excluding the abused scriptures of Luke 10:38-42). Quite frankly I would never take anyone’s word for anything if they abused scripture like that – that should prove that the person has no clue and that alone should close this topic off. But I’ll carry on cos we have another situation here.

    Let me summarise the situation here:

    1) Driscol and clan and this sadly includes (John Piper) give a big thumbs up to contemplative spirituality (this includes all the different types) and gave us a 4 step program on how to ‘hear God’s voice’
    2) You say this 4 step plan is actually not that bad
    3) But you also say do not advocate visualising, repetition or the use of mantras or any other Eastern Religious influenced rituals or rights.
    4) Yet Driscol and clan do. What they are promoting is nothing but the westernised version of eastern meditation (it does not look eastern at all, but it’s still occultic)

    So that leads me to another question. Where does the person get saved in this 4 step plan? Because hearing god’s voice is hearing the Holy Spirit’s conviction in your life. And the Holy Spirit abide in you when you are saved. I do not see this 4 step program in the bible. I do however read about repentance of sin and being born again and praying :)

    So what voice are these people going to hear if they have not heard the Holy Spirit’s voice yet, and then start this meditation process…and oh my…they feel different, at peace…joy comes over them, etc, etc, etc and then they hear inwardly a voice (not like a loud voice) but a consciousness voice…. who is that do you think?

    So please tell me again what you do when you meditation. I am not trying to be funny or annoying here I am honestly wanting to know what you do lol.

  33. Michael Anthony says:

    >>>>Are you trying to wilfully mislead people or do you not know how to use Go and look up 1 Timothy 4:15. The Greek word is μελετάω and it literally means to revolve in the mind.>>>>

    Wow! That’s a very serious accusation! Me, willfully misleading people? And that’s all you could find; a scripture taken completely out of context? In 1 Timothy 4:15 Paul is telling Timothy to meditate on ‘these’ things. What things? The things he has just written to him about, especially for Timothy not to neglect his gift and the Pastoral advice Paul had just given him. Context, Context, CONTEXT… Talk about an absolute mangling of scripture.

    And this is the best you can do; resort to sarcasm and snide remarks? My point was very straightforward – there is no correlation between ‘meditate’ and ‘prayer’ has found in scripture. The exercise was straightforward and a simple bible lookup.

    Let me give you a parable. Pot, kettle, black.

    Let that ‘revolve’ in your mind a bit.

  34. Michael Anthony says:



    >>>So what voice are these people going to hear if they have not heard the Holy Spirit’s voice yet, and then start this meditation process…and oh my…they feel different, at peace…joy comes over them, etc, etc, etc and then they hear inwardly a voice (not like a loud voice) but a consciousness voice…. who is that do you think?>>>>

    Let me tell you what I think, generically speaking: if there is one thing I know that can keeps us in communion with God, it’s prayer. Prayer does not change God, it changes us first…especially when you prayer for your enemies. Especially when we realise the ernomity of some of the things we pray for…

    Prayer has God’s audience, he hears us, he honours prayer. The fervent prayer of the righteous avails much. I came to HIS saving Grace because of prayer. I am alive because of prayer. The list goes on and on.

    The simple strategy of the enemy is to keep us ‘revolving’ nice (biblical) thoughts and things in our mind so that we DONT pray. This unbiblical nonsense is a subtle, romantic-sounding substitute for prayer. The bible is clear; ‘let your requests be made known to God’. God is not in the telepathy business.

    This stuff makes people feel more ‘connected’ to God. Yet, the just shall live by his faith. Faith does not have to feel anything – in fact it still trusts and believes resolutely when adverse emotions and feelings linger.

    These wolves are lying to us – if people are deceived into thinking that both mediation and prayer are equal parts of the same thing eventually the better ‘experience’ will win. and it’s not prayer.

  35. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> These wolves are lying to us – if people are deceived into thinking that both mediation and prayer are equal parts of the same thing eventually the better ‘experience’ will win. and it’s not prayer.

    This is actually what I wanted to say last night and just could get th sentense right, yours is perfect. Thank you.

  36. Mark Penrith says:


    Yes it is a very serious accusation. You said you went “to”, used a “new King James” [sic], typed “in the word ‘meditate’” and only got “10” responses, all in the “OT”.

    I’m not being sarcastic; I’m bringing a charge against you; you either lied or you inaccurately handled the Word of Truth and for that you should be ashamed. If you were an honest broker of the truth you would have apologised and confirmed that there are 20 instances of the word meditate in the New King James version with 3 of them being in the New Testament.

    I quoted 1 Timothy 4:15 because it concisely conveys the meaning of the Greek word μελετάω. It exemplifies the translator’s use of the English word and gives us insight into the meaning of the English word.

    Please go and check out Philippians 4:8, “Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.”


    After rereading what you’ve written I don’t believe we’re far apart from each other regarding what is Biblically permissible. I would however suggest that you draw a distinction between the two words prayer and meditation as God’s Word certainly does. Meditate is a Biblical word and so we should appropriately claim it, accurately define it and fervently defend it as such.

    I profess I’m not too keyed up regarding contemplative prayer or the resurgence movement as our flock is not currently battling against these ills as we’re a very conservative congregation. I lack a frame of reference regarding Mark Driscoll and so only weighed up what you had written against the article you referenced.

    Can we now truce on this subject?

  37. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Well I just pray you don’t get swept away at any time with this meditation thing, and believe it takes one teeny weeny thing to open a door. I will stick to prayer because I am actually having a conversation with my Savior and I receive confirmation through His Holy Spirit that abides in me. I don’t need to do odd stuff like read a passage over again and then contemplate it or meditate about it. Simply because the Holy Spirit gives me council to what it means so mostly immediately.

    Also you can’t bring a charge against Michael, good grief. He is not mis-interpreting Scripture. He might have counted wrong. Notice you never charged the guy who wrote the article for RESURGENCE for abusing Luke 10:38-42. (all Winfield Bevin’s got was a “other than abusing Luke 10:38-42 I’m not sure he’s that far off”.

    Like why does Winfield get off so lightly with a pat on the back for not being far off even after abusing the Word of God with a direct attempt at misleading people and
    Michael is like charged with what I have no idea for miss counting.

    Sighs…. I think I am going to go and throw myself off my balcony – fortunately I’m only 2m from the ground.

  38. Michael Anthony says:


    You are demoting what is quite a serious topic into something juvenile and being very childish with your tactics. Thanks for making me feel like I am debating with a minor.

    Go, use the NEW KING JAMES version

    or just the KING JAMES VERSION

    Both give 10 but at the bottom it says ‘More results from King James Version’ I did not see that…it’s an honest mistake. In any case, that brings it to 13, but who cares?

    THAT IS NOT THE POINT! Who gives a rat’s ass on exactly how many instances are there or are not there. That is majoring on the minors. The word MEDITATE/MEDITATION and the word PRAYER/PRAY dot not co-exist in the same verse or context anywhere in the OT or NT. That is the point, or did you not understand the simple exegetical principle I was laying out? The topic is called MEDITATIVE PRAYER – is this starting to add up?

    YOUR QUOTE — ‘I quoted 1 Timothy 4:15 because it concisely conveys the meaning of the Greek word μελετάω. It exemplifies the translator’s use of the English word and gives us insight into the meaning of the English word’

    What in God’s green earth does that have to do with prayer? What does that have to do with anything?

    You have resorted to insensitive, ad hominem attacks. But that’s OK – anybody with reasonable sanity knows that this is the only option left when the debater is running out of substance in his debate.

    You worked out the parable yet?

  39. Amanda says:

    Dear fellow Sheep

    Re-read this thread and understand how it came about that mutton now gets served in the [Dutch Reformed] Church.

  40. Michael Anthony says:

    Hi Deborah,

    I think that annoying background noise is back – could you have the tekkie look at the air-con?

  41. Amanda says:


    How big is the balcony? Will it work if you jump twice? Just askin’.

  42. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> How big is the balcony? Will it work if you jump twice? Just askin’.

    Bwaahaha oh thank you, now that made me laugh. But it actually got me thinking. 1st jump I would be ok, 2nd time I think I could hurt my foot…that’s about it. ROTFL

  43. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    I don’t have an air-con I do have a ceiling fan on full blast and the chain is kinda stuck.

  44. cecilia says:

    chain is stuck where, DTW?
    so you can choose between the ceiling fan’s chain and the low balcony!

    let go of the chain…. rolling around lol! I once jumped off a dog-kennel (about 1.5m ?), to get away from wasps which I just sprayed with Doom. landed 1 foot on grass, other 1 on concrete. I was lucky! it was a clean heal break. Oh yes, this was 1 of the instances where prayer brought complete healing!

    Amanda, pls fill me in about the mutton + DRC?

  45. Amanda says:

    Then merrier it shall be. Dr. Stephan Joubert’s Ma’am quote is from here is the link: A biblical appraisal of the Mosaic Congress held at the Mosaic Church in Fairlands, Johannesburg (4-5 Sept. 2009) (Part 4)Session 3: Being a radical pilgrim and prophet – Stephan Joubert.

    [Edited: Sorry Amanda, just had to re-arrange some of your words so it could apprear in the comments scroll window properly. The link was too long so moved it to the end of your sentence]

  46. Amanda says:

    Cecilia! You mean you did not follow the links I posted? Tut tut. Now, should you do so, this is what you would find. Dr. Stephan Joubert speaking:

    Another lady, I have told this story, another lady the other day said to me: “You know, I stand on Scripture.” I said: “Ma’am, that is great. Get off and read it. It is better.

    Thomas’ comment:

    Have you noticed Stephan Joubert’s scholarly approach and chivalry when he speaks to women? “I stand on the Bible” is a figure of speech many people use to say that they conform their lives to the dictates and doctrines of the Bible. They simply mean that that they organize their lives according to God’s Word. Ironically, Stephan Joubert who made a big issue of Proverbs being a book about the real life and not a “cultus” (sic) life of temple worship, religious personnel, holy times or holy foods or holy stuff, pokes fun at someone who takes the Bible very seriously and “stands on it” as a book that teaches you how to live a holy life (a life separated unto the Lord). In stead of encouraging her to continue abiding (“standing”) on His Word he facetiously tells her to get off and rather read it. If only he had read the wisdom story in Proverbs, especially the part that says a winner of souls is wise (30:11), he would never have made such a blasphemous remark that Jesus was/is not concerned about who is saved and who is not . . . purity and impurity (holy and unholy) . . . who is in and who is not. Being “in” or “out” is the most important message of the Bible, including that of the book of Proverbs. In fact, it determines your destination. This is what God’s Word says about being “in” or “out.”

    Romans 8:1 THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.

    This was not a sermon, but it is typical. Stephan targets the elderly, the churchgoers, the religious types, those who have all the answers, in short all those that oppose Stephan. More from the same lecture:

    Most fundamentalists, they are naïve, because they refuse to engage with the complexities of life. You need to engage with complexity, with chaos, otherwise you are just running away. And I think many Christians today in South Africa, they run back


    We are drowning in religiosity. People are so religious, they die of it. Hulle vrek daarvan. You can’t stand it.


    It is a very, it can become a very internalized individualistic me and God thing as well. So it is me and God, we are growing, we are on this journey. No no no. You are a prophet. You’re called to share what you know with other people. Prophets will go back to the world and say there is… we need metanoia. And Len Sweet says it is more difficult to convert Christians than non-Christians. It is more difficult to get people who already have the virus, the religious virus to get rid of it or the clergy mentality virus, to detox. Well, I tell myself I am in detox now. I am a recovering academic. And then I end by saying we need to understand God is everywhere.

    And the dangerous, the most dangerous place to do this is in a church. They will chase you away when you bring this, when you talk, when you share this story, this new spirituality, because they want certainty. They want boring lives. They want to go on as they always did. They want to do the God thing as they did. It doesn’t change the world. 70% of people in South Africa say they are Christians, but you see how [what] the country looks like.

    Is that enough Cecilia, or do you need more quotes?

  47. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> chain is stuck where……let go of the chain…. rolling around lol!


  48. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Amanda, you forgot to re-post the links.

  49. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> or do you need more quotes

    The more the merrier is what I say.

  50. cecilia says:

    thanks Amanda! I actually downloaded the whole biblical appraisal doc. still reading thru it. take with that I’ve got “end of year syndrome”, you’d understand…
    lots of reading though, thanks again. cecilia

  51. Merry Helper says:

    [Edited: Comment Deleted: MHelper: You come here to argue and be insulting. I reply with honesty. You got your answers. I asked you what Jesus Christ has done to you that you hate Him so much and you wont answer. That’s my question to you. Answer it, don’t answer it. You know the truth Merry Helper. I am not here to play the fool with you.]

  52. Merry Helper says:

    You assume Jesus has done something to me for which I hate him, and there-after ask what that thing is. I choose not to answer as not to give your assumption creedance and then later Acknowledge Jesus above all “Jesus above all, amen.”

    Tis clear I have upset ya, I assume tis my sense of humour, for this I will strive not to make jokes.

    “You know the truth Merry Helper” Please take what I say with some salt, a pinch. On meditation, well it’s of God as brother Mark has rightly put it, You’d do well to pay attention to him, if you must mute me.

    On eastern things blessing your life, look around for the signs in your home: Made in China.

    Be Blessed

  53. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    I don’t take well to double sided talk. And your sense of humour insults Jesus Christ the Son of God not me. The Christ you follow is a universal Christ, not the Son of God Jesus Christ who died on a cross as a sacrifice for YOUR sin. But you choose to hate HIM never the less and this is clear for if you did LOVE Him ABOVE ALL THINGS you would NOT in any way speak about Him the way you do. Jesus Christ is KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, BRINGER OF JUDGEMENT, LOVES THOSE WHO LOVE HIM, WILL DESTROY THOSE WHO DON’T.

    1 Peter 1:16-18 16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” 17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers.

    There is no fear of God in your life. You think you can play the fool and get away with your blasphemy. You make jokes to me ‘Are you one of those SAVED’. Well YES I am. You can be too, if you want too of course. Does this make me better than you? No. For I am a sinner saved by GRACE. If you do not care for the offer of salvation that Jesus Christ the Son of God offers you, who SHED his blood that you will be spared his coming wrath on wicked mankind then that is YOUR choice.

    Peter 4:6 6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

    GOD IS GOD, who are you to argue with HIS rules. HE CREATED YOU, THE EARTH, THE UNIVERSE and you dictate to HIM? Do you think He loved mankind’s wickedness, those who insult him, even those who do it in jest? GOD IS A HOLY GOD and DOES NOT TOLERATE Mankind’s disobedience. Who are YOU to argue with THE ONE AND ONLY LIVING GOD who would not blink an eye at destroying this world. He did it in Noah’s time. You forget who you are dealing with.

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

    Do you believe what is false Merry Helper?

    Your twisted sense of humour shows what your mouth speaks is what’s in your heart. Your own words judge you. If you have any sense of conviction in your life, if you had any IDEA of who the Biblical Jesus Christ is you would not for once instance even THINK of insulting HIM. Your “Jesus above all, amen” means nothing.

    Matthew 7:21-23 21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    As for your all your blessings. I reject them totally. As for your: ‘made in China’. What’s your point? Did I ask that the greed of mankind ask China to manufacture goods? NO. If the world followed God, as God asks of mankind to do in His Word we would not be in this predicament. Pretty arguments.

    If you think Mark Prenith is someone who you can share your meditation techniques with please by all means go to his website and have a field day. Click on his name and it will take your directly to you blog. It might take you a while to get him to admit though that you are on the same side and do believe the same things.

    Merry Helper. Good luck on your ventures. As I said before you know the truth. And now I have stated my side completely and utterly. I can not make you change your heart and follow Jesus Christ and abandon your idols and false gods. Only God can save you.

    Mark, you have a new friend in meditation.

    Actually Mark while we are at it. Do you agree with Merry Helper? Is what he said in his comment “well written?” See Mark’s comment here: 2009/12/25 at 2:00am

  54. Merry Helper says:

    Debs, I would like to continue but require you to undelete my Christmas blessing for everyone to see, I’d like to address some of your very salient points.


  55. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    Can’t undelete. Sorry.

  56. Merry Helper says:

    Alo Alo

    No problem.

    In kindness, my response:

    1. Reread all my scripts and found none insulting to Jesus, can anyone less Debs find such insult?

    2. I fear Yahweh. I do not blaspheme, God is not mocked.

    3. You assume I don’t care for Salvation through Grace. You assume wrongly.

    4. In fairness, I’m questioning your interpretation on scriptural meditation not Challanging God, you’ve been mislead.

    5. I strive only to hold onto what is true/Scripture.

    6. The Chinese have blessed all our lives with cheaper products, empowering the poor, Amen to that.[Empowering the poor, that is.]

    7. As for Mark etc. I consider us all on the same page of refining our understanding of the truth of Christ through Scripture as we are doing here.

    8. I don’t believe in luck.

    9. Wrt the Saved thing, I feel I’ve been clear enough. Here goes again.: If you choose to believe, you will be saved from eternal damnation.

    10. The Mary thing was me, drawing out all the anti-Catholic propaganda out there, to see your position and understand you more clearly.

    11. I realise you are baiting me with terms like “Universal” Christ so that I may fit your mould of what some American has taught you on some DVD or book. Thereafter you may paint me Emergent or Catholic or whateva and then shout at me get behind me Satan. Open your eyes to the Truth alone and stop believing all the Propaganda. PS: I am comfortable with the term Universal Christ in the sense that it embodies his omnipotency.

    12. In my first reply, after kindly addressing everyone, the first word I chose was “Words”
    Methinks some of you practise what I would call meditation an call it “Quiet Time” or a similair word. Sadly for some, repitition is a wonderful learning technique used in many good Christian Worship Songs. I often sing to Glorify God when I see a display of his Gr8 creation on earth.


  57. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    >> fit your mould of what some American has taught you on some DVD or book. Thereafter you may paint me Emergent or Catholic or whateva and then shout at me get behind me Satan. Open your eyes to the Truth alone and stop believing all the Propaganda.

    Completely incorrect.

    As for the rest, thank you for your explanations.

  58. Amanda says:


    Feel the luv:

    SONDAG 29 JUNIE 2008
    MATTEUS 18:1-3; LUKAS 10:17-21

    “…Dit is vir my altyd so mooi van Nehemia, hy was soos ‘n kind voor die Here. Gaan lees bietjie Nehemia 1. Hy staan op ‘n dag daar voor die koning toe hy hoor hoe sleg dit gaan, in Nehemia 1 en Nehemia 2, toe hy hoor hoe sleg dit met sy mense gaan en sy gesig is hartseer en die koning sê vir hom: Nehemia, wat is fout met jou dat so dik lip hier staan? Ek meen hy was altyd so vol vreugde dat die koning agterkom dat hy ‘n bietjie af is. Ek het ‘n vermoede die meeste Christene is dit andersterom. Die dag as jy lag sê hulle wat is verkeerd, het daar iets met jou gebeur dat jy lag? Ek bedoel het jy al agtergekom party Christene as hulle lag dan skrik jy jou dood. Ek onthou toe ek so klein tjokkertjie was het ons daar by my oupa-hulle gaan kuier in Heidelberg en my oupa het altyd gepraat van die oom is ‘n groot Christen en ek het die oom uitgekyk en op ‘n dag het ek vir my oupa gevra: Oupa, kan daardie oom lag? Toe sê my oupa mens vra nie sulke goed nie.

    “…Kinders waag, grootmense waag nie. Grootmense ry op dieselfde pad werk toe, sit op dieselfde plek in die kerk. Grootmense gaan jou van hulle stoel afjaag as jy op hulle plek in die kerk sit. Ons was nou die dag by ‘n kerk waar dit gebeur het, dis so snaaks want daar sit grootmense en waag jy dit om daar te sit nè, dan is jy in die moeilikheid. Grootmense kyk dieselfde televisieprogram en eet dieselfde kos op dieselfde tyd op dieselfde aand. Hulle is vaak, vervelig, veilig en voorspelbaar. Kinders daarteen is beginners, leerders, klein, vreugdevol en laastens waagmoedig.

    “…Grootmense is ‘n probleem. Geen wonder nie dat dr Zeus eenkeer gesê het, as jy nie weet wie dr Zeus is nie kry ‘n lewe, dr Zeus het eenkeer gesê: Grownups are obsolete children. Grootmense is oorbodige kinders. Dit is tyd dat al hierdie oorbodige kinders padgee en dat die ware kinders van die Here na vore kom. Wanneer laas het jy elke dag oor en voor begin? Wanneer laas het jy elke dag iets nuuts geleer? Wanneer laas was jy so klein dat die Here jou groot kan gebruik? Wanneer laas het daar vreugde in jou hart geklop, het jy agter Jesus aangehardloop omdat Hy die held van jou lewe is? Wanneer laas het jy vir Jesus gesê: Jesus, as ek vir mense van U vertel verander hulle lewens – en het Hy vir my gesê: Sjoe weet jy wat, jy gaan nog saam met My by die feesmaal in die hemel sit, dan gaan ons fees hou. En wanneer laas het jy alles vir Jesus gewaag sodat grootmense begin sidder? Of het jy ‘n grootmens geword wat vaak, veilig, voorspelbaar, vervelig is. Hoor die woord van die Here in Matteus 18. Toe het Jesus vir hulle gesê: As julle nie verander en soos kindertjies word nie sal julle nooit die koninkryk van die hemel sien nie. Amen.”

    GALASIËRS 3:28

    “…Ouens hierdie lewe, jy het hom net eenkeer. Leef met vreugde. Het jy gesien wat Randy gedoen het, hy het sy lewe geniet, jy het net een kans. Jy wil darem sekerlik nie oud word soos party ou mense nie. Party grootmense is so vervelig jy sukkel so vyf minute om die verskil tussen hulle en ‘n stopstraat agter te kom. Jy wil nie so oud word nie. Jy wil nie soos ou dominee teen alles wees nie. Net weer
    vanoggend by ‘n kerk waar ek was sê die oom: Ek is diep bekommerd oor die jeug. Toe sê ek: Oom, weet jy hoeveel jongmense diep bekommerd is oor julle oumense. Nee, ‘n mens moet darem die ding terug doen.

    From Lifestyle C

    When we asked Stephan about his position regarding the Emerging Church and his introduction in Nelus Niemandt’s book, he replied with the following via e-Mail:

    Geagte Stephan,
    Beskou jy jouself as ‘n behoudende teoloog? Indien wel, behoort dit jou en mense om jou te bekommer dat jy Nelus se boek so hoog aanskryf, terwyl hy duidelik die “Emergent Church” propageer…

    Kommentaar sal waardeer word…

    “Dankie vir die skrywe.

    Weet jy, my werk is oop vir almal om te lees en te evalueer. Elke dag skryf ek ‘n stukkie in Beeld en elke aand doen ek ‘n oordenking op RSG. Die boeke wat ek skryf en die materiaal op ekerk plaas my teologie in die helder lig van almal om dit in die lig te beoordeel. Oor my eie behoudendheid kan jy dus self besluit in die lig van Matteus 7 wat noem dat ons aan ons vrugte geken word.

    Oor Nelus – hy is my vriend. Ek ken sy hart. En sy liefde vir onse Heer. Wat my meer bekommer, is dat die persoon wat teen emerging churches is in daardie seminuaar kennelik nog nie een enkele boek gelees het nie, en nie ‘n idéé het wie of wat dit is nie. En dat hy Matteus 18 grensloos oortree deur nog met Nelus, nog met my te praat. Is dit nie wat mens propaganda noem nie?

    Stephan” (sic)


    Cecilia, you can link back and see that the new spirituality Sarel van der Merwe has been warning the church about for years, is what was taught at Mosaiek by Stephan, Ron Martoia, Theo Geyser, Trevor Hudson and the others. Funny how that works. Do you want some Guilaume quotes?

  59. Amanda says:

    Uit ons hart uit
    Job – Klaar met God?
    Spreker: Stephan Joubert
    Datum: 2009-10-11 – Sondag

    “Wie het vir jou gesê Ek is weg wanneer dit met jou sleg gaan? Job, Ek is nie verklaarbaar nie, maar Ek is ervaarbaar. Job, Ek is nie verklaarbaar nie. Jou godsdienstiges, jou teoloë, jou slim mense kan My nie uitredeneer nie. Ek is nie die somtotaal van ‘n paar geloofsbelydenisse, die uitdrukking van ‘n klompie dogma, die neerslag in ‘n dogmatiese handboek, maar Job, die mense wat My soek sal My vind.”

    …Sê die Here: “Terloops, Job, jou vriende was verkeerd, daai selfaangestelde verklaardes, die wêreld godsdienste, selfs die Christendom, selfs Christene wat dink hulle is hekwagte vir die waarheid, hulle moet sê wie is en en uit, reg of verkeerd , ja of nee, gaan bring ‘n offer vir hulle. Hulle het My verkeerd verstaan. Hulle het gedink hulle kan My verpak soos in ‘n handboek, soos in ‘n respeteboek “so werk God. Ons het dit nou uiteindelik uitgefigure”. Dit kan nie.

  60. Amanda says:


    Here is my absolute favourite Dr. Stephan Joubert quote. Again from “AS EK MY LAASTE WOORDE NOU KAN SÊ”:

    Maar Here, dankie
    dat U ook vir ons kerk uitdaag om verder te gaan, om die osoonlaag wat
    stukkend is waaroor U huil, want U het hierdie skepping mooi gemaak,
    om dit heel te maak.

    God is crying in Heaven about the hole in the ozone layer? And we thank Him for challenging Christians to fix it?

    Bwa-ha-ha-ha! Wha-ha-ha-ha! Oh, man, I wish I could insert the Chris Rosebrough-laugh here. I mean, really!

  61. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> God is crying in Heaven about the hole in the ozone layer? And we thank Him for challenging Christians to fix it?

    Oh that must be in the book of CFCs 6:11-13

  62. Amanda says:


  63. cecilia says:

    DTW, please change the name of the book! (CFCs…) that’s my maiden initials!

    thanks Amanda, I actually did a WHOOOOOLE lot of reading and read all these you’ve posted here even before I looked here!

  64. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    lol, well cfc gasses (Chlorofluorocarbons) is what caused the hole in the ozone. unless you are saying you are the cause…hmmm

  65. karen says:

    i think this is devisive. you are tossing around semantics of the interface between meditation and prayer. meditation as a concept has been tainted by exposure to eastern religion and the perceived implications of the use of the word. whatever we do, we must sure we do it because its in the word, and glorifies God, i’m in agreement. meditation is in the word eg Gen24.

    i think the tone of the comments (within, not subsequent ones) on this article are too harsh and read like an attack, and its a bit ugly; and not in a good passionate righteous indignation way. you may disagree with mark driscoll, but unity brothers, this is not a major point of theology, i think it pivots on an understanding of how we are defining how we interact with God. i think.


  66. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Yes, unity at all costs, I know. But I wont unify with people who oppose the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can, I won’t. And the entire basis of New Age Christian teaching is on how the world DEFINES the gospel – the NEW definition that is supported by all faiths. So you can carry on defininig it the new way and I will carry on definining it the old Biblical way.

  67. Elmarie A says:

    Driscoll: Christians Need to be ‘Go and Die’ People
    By Michelle A. Vu

    While people can begin attending church with a “come and see” attitude, they need to mature to become “go and die” people, stressed a prominent Seattle megachuch pastor Sunday.

    “At some point, to be a Christian you have to transition from ‘come and see’ to ‘go and die’,” said Mars Hill Pastor Mark Driscoll as he preached to his congregation. “That is, you just can’t watch people walk with Jesus; you have to walk with them. You can’t just allow other people to serve you; you need to serve as well.”

    Driscoll, preaching from Luke 6:12-19, examined lessons learned from the calling of the 12 disciples.

    One of the eleven lessons he talked about was to “die with your boots on.”

    Not counting Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus, the other eleven disciples died horrible deaths or suffered intensely for faithfully proclaiming the Gospel, he said.

    Peter, for example, was crucified upside down; Bartholomew beaten, crucified and beheaded; Philip stoned, crucified and buried; Andrew crucified; and Matthew murdered by a sword wound.

    John, although he lived until the age of 100, was boiled alive but managed somehow to survive. He then was exiled and spent his time writing the Book of Revelation. He was eventually allowed to return and is thought to be the only one among the 12 disciples to have died a natural death.

    “When people start giving their lives to the cause of the Gospel, all of those who were playing church stop playing,” said Driscoll in between reading how all 12 disciples died. “They either step up for Jesus and go from ‘come and see’ to ‘go and die,’ or like Judas, they just walk away and go do something else.”

    Jesus, Driscoll noted, told his followers to pick up the cross and follow him. In the beginning the disciples were only invited to “come and see,” but after Jesus’ crucifixion they were called to follow the way of Jesus and give their life for what he gave his life for.

    “We are glad that you come and see,” Driscoll said, “[but] you need to go and die.”

    The casually dressed young pastor said a problem he often sees in the Church is with submitting themselves under authority. People want to be in authority but do not want to be under someone’s control.

    People end up moving from church to church because of this problem, he said. They do not want to become a member. They do not want to commit themselves or be accountable to anyone.

    “This is a sick world that hates leadership. Everybody thinks they should be able to text message the president and boss him around,” said Driscoll. “From social networking to continuing comments to consumerism, people don’t want to follow a leader. All they want to do is criticize the leader.”

    Some Christian leaders have even told Driscoll that they don’t recognize leadership.

    “Really? Do you believe in God? Because God is in charge,” he preached.

    In concluding, Driscoll urged Christians to humble themselves before authority and learn to die.

    His sermon, “Jesus Calls the Twelve,” is part of the series “Luke’s Gospel: Investigating the man Who is Go” at Mars Hill Church.

    Founded in 1996, Mars Hill is a multi-site church with Washington campuses in Bellevue, Federal Way, Olympia, Shoreline, and a few more in Seattle. The church also has a campus in Albuquerque, N.M.

  68. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    I think Mark Driscoll needs to get on his knees before God and repent big time before he get’s zapped by lightening.

  69. Elmarie A says:

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    This was my thoughts too when I read this.

  70. Robbie says:

    ……. Deborah, now that lightning thing?….
    That is exactly why I will not walk next to Mark. Just now it is his time to go, and because I walk beside him… I go with.

  71. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    My new catch phrase of the year is ‘zapped by lightening’. This can be added to the end of pretty much any sentence or in the middle…where ever.

    When will he/she be ‘zapped by lightening’?
    Is is possible they will or could be or have been zapped by lightening?
    Angus Buchan had a worker zapped by lightening.
    Angus raised a worker from the dead who was zapped by lightening.
    One has a greater chance of being zapped by lightening than ‘fill in words here’.
    When will someone prophecy that between this and that year that if you stand under a tree during a rainstorm (anywhere around the world) that someone will be zapped by lightening.
    How many people out of 400,000 (this is just a random number) will go stand under the tree and be zapped by lightening?

    Ahhh… ‘zapped by lightening’… love it.

  72. Elmarie A says:

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    When will someone prophecy that between this and that year that if you stand under a tree during a rainstorm (anywhere around the world) that someone will be zapped by lightening.

    aha a good “zapped by lightening” spot. lol lol

  73. Grizzled says:

    Funny how long this thread has become, yet no one has asked – what about memorization of scripture? Is that to be encouraged? If so, how do you do that without repetition, over and over? And, at the same time, why would contemplating on that scripture, while repeating it over and over, be a bad thing?

  74. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Memorizing and meditating ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

    When you studied for exams, do you memorise notes or meditate over them?

  75. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    <— Bangs Head On Desk… It's less painful than having to think for everyone else all the time.

  76. Elmarie A says:

    Deborah (Discerning the World)


    I do know how you feel.

  77. Rachel says:

    Contemplation is scriptural. Elijah heard God as a small still voice. Contemplation is setting aside distractions to focus on and desire to know and hear God: ‘in the stillness you shall know me.’ Also, Catholics are Christian. I don’t know why Protestants have such an issue about the honouring of Jesus’ mum. You respect the mothers of other people you care about surely? Jesus asked his beloved disciple John to look after his mother, so I can’t see how He would raise objections about His followers respecting His mother. Instead of bickering and squabbling we as Christians should aim to overcome petty divisions within the body and instead focus on keeping Jesus’ commandments, which is to love one another as He loved us. There’s not going to be denominations in heaven so best we get used to getting along with each other before we get there. Peace.

  78. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    1) The way a born again Christian HEARS THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO ALREADY ABIDES IS US IS VERY DIFFERENT to contemplative spirituality. Anyone who has to set aside distractions to focus on in order to know and hear God has a problem and doing OCCULT practices. The Holy Spirit does not work this way. Yes He is still small voice and a gentle whisper BUT NOT what you are describing.
    2) Catholics are not Christian. Mary of the Bible is NOT the Mary of the Roman Catholic faith – please do your research on this issue.

  79. Burning Lamp says:

    Rachael, along with most born-again believers, I respect Mary and that she was chosen to be the instrument of the birth of our Savior. However, the Catholic view of her is completely different and unbiblical. Roman Catholics view Mary as perfect as Jesus was and on an equal basis as Him – co-redemptix. They pray to her like a god! You must be in a contemplative fog if you can’t see this!! Like Deborah says – do your homework Rachael! This is not petty!! This is about blaspheming the name of Jesus Christ!

  80. joe says:

    There is a christian type of meditation (prayer) and hundreds and hundreds of other meditations, only few of those hundreds do you practice another religion. meditation is stilling the mind, not always “going out in to other universes” or “worshiping other gods” or “taking part in satanic practices”. Meditation is a way of stress relief and helps relaxation. I like to practice meditation and christian meditation at the same time by sitting (lotus position), controlling my breathing, closing my eyes, folding my hands, and by concidering the lords word. The experience is euphoric and it builds your relationship with god. theres nothing “SATANIC” about that.

  81. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    >> I like to practice meditation and christian meditation at the same time by sitting (lotus position), controlling my breathing, closing my eyes, folding my hands, and by concidering the lords word. The experience is euphoric and it builds your relationship with god. theres nothing “SATANIC” about that.

    You got to be kidding.

  82. Joseph says:

    hagah- means to meditate in the Hebrew tongue. Outline of Biblical Usage

    1) to moan, growl, utter, muse, mutter, meditate, devise, plot, speak
    a) (Qal)
    1) to roar, growl, groan
    2) to utter, speak
    3) to meditate, devise, muse, imagine
    b) (Poal) to utter
    c) (Hiphil) to mutter

    Joshua 1:8 “This book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.”

  83. John says:

    You are most of you horribly deceived. The Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded. You live outside of it, and outside of the Sacraments, at your peril. You know nearly nothing of what most of you speak and it is time to humble yourselves and read the Church Fathers. I have noticed most Protestants lose their false pride when they convert. Please come to Mass and honor Christ the way he left himself with us. God bless.

  84. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    Bla bla bla, I could send you a billion pages of writing telling you why the RCC is totally and utterly HEATHEN and PAGAN. But would you believe it id I showed you? Tell you what, why don’t you do some research on your own to see why Catholicism is Pagan? Type in Google: Catholic Pagan and see what you get.

  85. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:


    And your point is?

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  5. You retain the Copyright of any “Comment” you submit to Discerning the World. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to grant Discerning the World a irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual license to use the material or commentary that you have submitted, in any medium and in any manner that Discerning the World may, in its sole unfettered discretion, choose.
  6. By submitting a “Comment” to Discerning the World, you agree to comply with the following rules concerning such submissions:
    1.  You agree not to include in your “Comment”:
      1. Any false, defamatory, libelous, abusive, threatening, racially offensive, sexually explicit, obscene, harmful, vulgar, hateful, illegal, or otherwise objectionable content;
      2. Any content that may be seen as stalking or harassing of any other Site contributors;
      3. Any content that personally attacks an individual. (An example of a personal attack is posting negative comments about an individual in a way meant to demean that person. Note that posting your opinion about someone’s ideas, doctrine or actions is not a personal attack);
      4. Any content that discloses private details concerning any person, for eg., phone numbers that have not been made public, photos that are not in the public domain, residential address that is not public, ID numbers, Social Security numbers, email addresses that are not in the public domain, etc.;
      5. Any content that you know to be false, misleading, or fraudulent;
      6. Any use of profanity;
      7. Any content including advertisements or otherwise focused on the promotion of commercial events or businesses, or any request for or solicitation of money, goods, or services for private gain;
      8. Any content that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment; or
      9. Any content directly or indirectly soliciting responses from minors (defined as anyone under 18 years of age).
    1. If any part of the “Comment” is not your original work, it is your responsibility to add the name of the third party, name the book with page number or a link (url) to the website where you obtained the information.
    2. Your “Comment” may contain Copyrighted material, the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. You are however allowed to make such material available in your “Comment” in an effort to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.  This constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this Site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:
    3. If you wish to use copyrighted material from a website or any other medium for purposes to add to your “Comment” that go beyond ‘fair use’, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. (Fair Use means you may quote from copyrighted sources, but you may not publish the whole article, book, etc., in your “Comment”.)
  8. You are solely responsible for the “Comment” you upload, post, transmit or otherwise make available to others using this Web Site. Under no circumstances will Discerning the World be liable in any way for any “Comment” posted on or made available through this Site by you or any third party.
  9. You understand that all “Comments” on this Site are pre-screened or moderated. That means that every “Comment” needs to be approved by Discerning the World before it appears in the “Comments” section.  This is not an automatic process.  Discerning the World does this for SPAM reasons.
  10. Discerning the World has the right (but not the obligation) in their sole unfettered discretion to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or available through the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, Discerning the World has the right to remove any “Comment” that violates these Terms or is otherwise deemed objectionable by Discerning the World in its sole discretion.
  11. You understand that Discerning the World in their sole unfettered discretion is not obligated and can not be forced in any manner, be it legal or otherwise to remove any “Comment” that is posted on or made available through the Site by you.
  12. When submitting a “Comment,” you will be asked to provide your name and your email address. While Discerning the World does not object to your use of a pseudonym instead of your actual name, Discerning the World reserves the right, but not the obligation, to reject, change, disallow, or discontinue at any time any submission name that, in Discerning the World’s sole unfettered discretion, is objectionable or inappropriate for any reason. Discerning the World requires the submission of your email address, but Discerning the World warrants that it will not publish your email address to an outside third party without your consent.
  13. Discerning the World does not sell or rent your personal information to third parties for their marketing purposes. From time to time, Discerning the World may contact you personally via email. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you acknowledge and understand that the “Comments” feature of the Site is designed to permit users to post information and commentary for public review and comment and thus you hereby waive any expectation of privacy you may have concerning any likeness or information provided to the Site by you.
  14. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    1. Discerning the World shall have the right, but not the obligation, to monitor interactions utilizing the “Comments” facility of the Site, between you and other users of or visitors to the Site. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World, or any third party shall not be, and you shall not seek to hold them, responsible for any harm or damage whatsoever arising in connection with your interaction with other users of or visitors to the Site.
    2. Discerning the World does not verify any information posted to or communicated via the “Comments” sections of the Site by users and does not guarantee the proper use of such information by any party who may have access to the information. You acknowledge and agree that Discerning the World does not assume, and shall not have, any responsibility for the content of messages or other communications sent or received by users of the Site.
  15. The Site contains content created by or on behalf of Discerning the World as well as content provided by third parties.
    1. Discerning the World does not control, and makes no representations or warranties about, any third party content, including such content that may be accessible directly on the Site or through links from the Site to third party sites.
    2. You acknowledge that, by viewing the Site or communications transmitted through the Site, you may be exposed to third party content that is false, offensive or otherwise objectionable to you or others, and you agree that under no circumstances shall Discerning the World be liable in any way, under any theory, for any third party content.
    3. You acknowledge and agree that the Site, and the contents thereof, is proprietary to Discerning the World and is protected by copyright. You agree that you will not access or use the Site or any of the content thereof for any reason or purpose other than your personal, non-commercial use.
    4. You agree that you will not systematically retrieve data or other content from the Site by any means, and you will not compile a database or directory of information extracted from the Site.
    5. You agree that you will not reproduce, distribute or make derivative works of the Site or any of the contents thereof without the express consent of Discerning the World.
    6. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Discerning the World, its affiliates and licensees, and all of their officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives from and against any and all liabilities, losses, claims, damages, and expenses (including attorneys’ fees) in connection with any claim arising out of your use of the Site or violation of any of these Terms.



16. These Terms constitute the entire agreement between Discerning the World and you with respect to the subject matter hereof, and supersede any previous oral or written agreement between us with respect to such subject matter.

Thank you!

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