Mark Driscoll’s RESURGENCE and EMERGENCE with Catholicism

The ReasurgenceWell well Mark Driscoll, what do we have here…

How To Practice Meditative Prayer - http://theresurgence.com/practice_meditative_prayerHow to Practice Meditative Prayer

Winfield Bevins   Acts 29 Pastor – Church of the Outer Banks

In Hebrew thought, to meditate upon the Scriptures is to quietly repeat them, giving oneself entirely to God, and abandoning outside distractions. The two main things that we are told to meditate on are God’s word and God’s goodness. Paul tells us, “Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things” (Philippians 4:8).

[DTW:  Oh so the word ‘think’ in that verse now justifies practicing occult practices.  SATANIC PRACTICES are NOT honourable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, of excellence, and worthy of praise unless you are speaking about another god, which you are.  Think about that.  Now, now, don’t go sit on the floor in some quiet place, just right where you are, right now, use your brain (that GOD gave you to THINK with) and think about it.  Then pick up your Bible and go find some real scripture to back up this nonsence – you will find none.]

We see the difference between the active and contemplative Christian life illustrated in the story of Mary and Martha in Luke 10:38-42. Mary sat at the feet of Jesus and heard his word, while Martha was distracted with much serving. Jesus said that Mary had chosen the best thing because she sat at his feet and was not distracted. Meditative prayer is exactly this, sitting at the feet of Jesus and hearing his word. This is a wonderful example of the art of meditative prayer. We must allow time to let the Lord speak to us through meditating on him and his word in prayer.

[DTW:  you know, sometimes I sit quietly and read the utter rubbish that is written by people who profess to be Christian.   Please note the big difference between your wild imagination and the truth as written as clear as daylight in the Bible.  “Mary, who was seated at the Lord’s feet, listening to His word.   But Martha was distracted with all her preparations…”   Jesus Christ who is the Word made flesh was speaking (using his mouth to talk) and Mary was listening.  Nothing mystical about this.  Nothing at all.  Nowhere does Jesus say to Martha that Mary made the right choice because she chose to avoided being ‘distracted’ when listening to Him speak.  No, Jesus says to Martha  “Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things; but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”   This means that Mary chose to listen to believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God and by believing in Him she received salvation, eternal life.  Jesus is saying to Martha, you should not be worried about things on earth, you should be worried about where you are going to spend eternity and that Mary made the good choice.”]

http://theresurgence.com/practice_meditative_prayer

Steps for Meditative Prayer

  1. Designate a quiet place. In a world full of distractions, we need a quiet place where we can allow God to speak to us. The most effective place to pray is where you are least likely to be disturbed.
  2. Give yourself 20-30 minutes. Many people only spend a few minutes each day in prayer. Very few people actually spend time in meditative prayer. It takes time to drown out the cares of the world, sit, prayerfully meditate on God’s word, and then allow him to speak to us.
  3. Choose Scripture to prayerfully meditate on. Prayerfully select a passage of Scripture that means something to you. Let it either focus on the goodness of God, the promises of God, or the worship of God.
  4. Allow God to speak to you. This is the hardest part. Many people never hear the Lord speak to them simply because they don’t allow him to. We need to sit and listen for the voice of the Lord. Samuel was open to hearing from the Lord (1 Samuel 3). He said, “Speak, for your servant hears.”

[DTW:  *silent* ………….  oh sorry, I was not meditating I was just thinking that one has to be completely deceived (or in the process of falling into deception ) to fall for this practice as being ‘Christian’ and so called approved by Biblical teachers.   My dear readers, please note that if you do this, you are opening yourself up to demonic spirits who will come and speak to you disguised as an ‘angel of light’. In other words, you will get something else speaking to you – NOT GOD.   You would get all freaked out if something that pretended to be God came and made it’s way into your thoughts?  Well start freaking out, cos this is what you are going to get.  STOP!  Repent to Jesus Christ the Son of God if you have gotten yourself involved in this stuff – get out please.   This is NOT Biblical and NOW WHERE in the Bible did Jesus tell us to do any of this.  Biblical prayer vs. what these people are trying to shove down your throat are two different things. 

As I type this, I am praying asking Jesus Christ to guide me as I write this. Your relationship with Jesus Christ should be a normal conversation in prayer.  I am typing, I have books piled up that I am reading, I have the bible open, highlighting pens, I got the TV on in the background (quite loud I must admit) and amazingly (*Emergent’s gasp*) I am still able to speak to my Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ right now and I know He hears me and I praise Him right now as I write this.  I think it’s also called multitasking;  being able to speak and think and do other things at the same. Obviously when studying scripture I read and make notes all the while I have the guidance of the Holy Spirit showing me what scripture means, He helps me understand. 

When I drive my car I speak to Jesus about my day ahead.  When I get to work I speak to Jesus about why I have such a horrible job, but thank Him never the less because it could be worse.  When I get lost while driving I am the first one to panic, and yet I speak to Jesus;  I ask him to help me, keep me safe.  Can you imagine if I need to get out of the car in a dangerous area, sit on the pavement in a Lotus position, chanting my mantra:  ‘AUMMM I am lost and I am no where near step 4, what am I going to do, I am still  only an apprentice”  Repeat 100x for 30min.    

Step 4 is the hardest part, they tell you – Hearing the Lord speak to you.   Well oddly enough, the bible says that salvation is not difficult at all nor is it a burden to obtain.]    

Matthew 11:30   “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

1 John 5:3   For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.”

Matthew 23:4    “ They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.”

Well I can see why so many people will get caught up in this horrendous practice (disguised as Christian).  Because they are right, 90% of people who call themselves Christian have actually never heard the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their lives.  Or, have you and you ignored Him?  And these are the ones who will be caught up into this evil trap.  And chances are you will hear something alright, but as I said above, it will not be the God of the Bible who sent His only Son to die on the cross for our sins, for those who chose to believe.  

——

Media, Networks, Partners, Authors and Friends who support The Resurgence:

  • Mike Anderson:  Director of the Resurgence.com
  • Mark Driscoll –  Mars Hill Church, Seattle
  • Tim Smith –  Mars Hill Church, Seattle
  • Justin Holcomb – Resurgence Training Center / Mars Hill Church, Seattle
  • Jeremy Carr – The Well,  Augusta
  • Matt Chandler – The Village Church
  • Ed Marcells –  Terra Nova Church / Coordinator for Acts 29 Network
  • Time Gaydos (Tim Gaydos) –  Mars Hill Church, Seattle
  • Scott Thomas – Acts 29 Network
  • Joel Virgo – Church of Christ the King, Brighton
  • Winfield Bevins – Church of the Outer Banks
  • Resound
  • Retrain
  • Desiring God  –  John Piper Ministry
  • The Gospel Coalition –  Mark Driscoll and John Piper are Council Members along with many others

Source:   THE RESURGENCE

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

85 Responses

  1. Pieter says:

    Hi DTW
    Great post as always!
    Since stumbling on your blog I never knew about all these “practices” out there. Meditative prayer, so what next…that we can only “listen” to Gods words and forget the Bible? Why would we want to “listen” to God through meditation when we have all His Words in the Bible? Come on guys! Open your eyes to this deception! Why would anyone believe this garbage????? If it is not instructed in Gods Word then do not do it! Period!!!! And don’t fall for the “But He speaks in Christ’s Name”. We are so gullible to fall for that and is actually moving back to Roman Catholic mid-evil times where the pope/new age pastor is our Biblical interpreter. So next would be to chuck out the word of God and get all our revelations from meditation.
    When Jesus instructed us on prayer in Matthew 6:5-13, do we read anything about meditation? No we don’t. And don’t come with the modern times crap. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. How ignorant of us to think that He should change to our modern times.
    I, personally almost fell for all these crap. Don’t get drawn into this because another man is saying so. Go to God, His Word, and His wonderful gift of salvation from a Loving Father. Repent, and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you.

  2. Mark Penrith says:

    I’ve read my namesake’s article a few times and… well, other than abusing Luke 10:38-42 I’m not sure he’s that far off. A quite place, designated time, Scripture focus and interaction with the Lord (I’m assuming that He doesn’t mean a direct revelatory interaction) is all good stuff.

    It’s also not far from the way Luther envisaged prayer. I wrote my thinking of both meditation and Luther’s prayer here (http://markpenrith.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/meditation-for-christians-what-it-is-and-how-to-do-it) and here (http://markpenrith.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/how-to-pray-when-youve-got-nothing-to-say).

  3. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Thanks Pieter

    Also there is a lot of scritpure not just the Matthew one but others regarding NOT doing meditation.

    I will list them a bit later.

    And you are absolutely 100% correct. We are going right back into the hands of Roman Catholicism. The old saying of, ‘All roads lead back to Rome’ was not just an old saying.
    Thankfully I am not on that road.

  4. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Hey Mark

    I hope you voted in my world’s most accurate poll? Are Catholics Christians? If not, please do. And get everyone you know to do the same.

    Before I start, you know me well enough by know that I say it like it is and DON’T beat around the bush so… take a deep breath (normal breathing please) and continue reading.

    So I went to read your articles and the picture with the person on the rock sitting in a meditative position (lotus position) was just so fitting.

    You use Gen 24–30as is speaks about meditating and you use Ps 1–13and 1 Tim 4.

    Righty, let’s go see what it says:

    Gen 24:62-63 “62 Now Isaac had come from going to Beer-lahai-roi; for he was living in the Negev. 63 Isaac went out to meditate in the field toward evening; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, camels were coming.”

    OK. Please tell me where it say anywhere in the above verse let alone the entire book of Genesis that Isaac was possibly: sitting cross legged, posture straight up, arms stretched out, hands and fingers in classic meditation position, visualising/picturing another universe far far away…

    As you said this is what a lecturer made the class do that you attend and somehow got the idea that this was Biblical. ““Close your eyes,” said the lecturer to the class (finally something I wanted to do), “and picture another you far away in the middle of the universe…”

    I think Isaac had his eyes closed and was praying – he was not falling into a trance as he very easily opened his eyes and saw camels coming in his direction. He was also praying to God and not visualising himself in another universe far far away dreaming what it would be like to be on the Starship Enterprise. Also remember now, you are taking verses from Genesis (Israel under the covenant of Law) they sacrificed as well, and did many things that God commanded them to do at the time. They kept the Sabbath. But besides that, meditating (closing your eyes, and speaking/praying to God through Jesus Christ) is NOT what you have described in your article.

    You have taken TWO different practices and you are trying very hard (not succeeding though) to combine the two and saying that a PAGAN way of praying is the same as Biblical prayer.

    The caption under your picture of the meditating person says,

    “The Age in which we live is characterised by adoption. Adoption of ideas, adoption of experience and adoption of ritual. Christian meditation is at the cusp of this phenomenon.”

    Where are you adopting these ideas from? If they are in the Bible then it’s not something new eh? ;) Yet these are NEW ideas for a NEW AGE. These ideas, experiences, rituals and practices come from somewhere else. Youuuuu know exactly what I am taking about Mark. Come be honest now.

    Next verses….

    Psalm 1:1-2
    1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
    Nor stand in the path of sinners,
    Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
    2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
    And in His law he meditates day and night

    Hmmm, when you think? You think day and night do you not? (except when you are sleeping). The verses above is saying; Blessed are those who are not wicked and do not sin but have removed themselves from those who sin and practice pagan rituals (like meditation). God takes pleasure in those who seek Him and the Truth (the Gospel of Jesus Christ) and have the Holy Spirit abide in them Who brings conviction day and night. Again, what the Israelites had to do under law vs the New covenant are two different things. BUT they did NOT meditate either – they prayed to GOD and thought about God’s Word. And now again we have the situation, WHERE DOES IT SAY that meditating day and night means sitting cross legged, etc, etc, etc.?

    Psalm 4:3-4
    3 But know that the LORD has set apart the godly man for Himself;
    The LORD hears when I call to Him.
    4 Tremble, and do not sin;
    Meditate in your heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.
    5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness,
    And trust in the LORD.

    Be still Mark and think about what you are doing. You have taken occult teachings and using the name of Jesus to lead people astray. You know your heart Mark. And you know very well that you do not even have to go and sit on your bed to figure this one out. When I was little my parents would send me to my room to ‘think’ about what I had done. Then I would sit there crying, I knew I had done wrong and I was sorry. Of course it took my parents a while to calm down. Fortunately for us Jesus Christ is far quicker to forgive us for our wickedness -if we are genuinely sorry. If not, well “3 … know that the LORD has set apart the godly man for Himself”.

    Ok, what’s next…

    1 Timothy 4:15-15

    15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
    16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Meditate upon these things? What things; 1 Tim 4:13 “13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.”

    Ok, I am going to ask the same question now for a 3rd time. WHERE DOES IT SAY that meditating day and night means sitting cross legged, etc, etc, etc.?

    Ok, based on 1 Tim 4 you said in your article:

    “So, how can I, as a Christian, meditate?”

    Well grab a Bible. Find a praise Psalm (Psalm 145 would be a great place to start). Read it, mull over it, study it, think on it, understand it, chew on it and pray to God all the while. That’s it, that’s meditation.”

    Tell me something… WHY are you explaining how to meditate when throughout HISTORY Christians have been successfully praying and receiving salvation with no problems at all. They have been HEARING GOD, who is the Holy Spirit that comes to abide in them that convicts us to stay away from evil practices like meditation?

    Tell me, after you have mulled over Psalm 145 50,000 times, chewed on it and spat it out, what exactly have you accomplished?

    Mark, you are trying very hard to make excuses for yourself; that you want to follow New Age teaching (because this is what you desire) but at the same time remain ‘Christian’. Unfortunately you can’t have it both ways. You are either FOR JESUS CHRIST or you are AGAINST HIM.

    2 Corinthians 13:5

    5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognise this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

    Revelation 3:15-16

    15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
    16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

    Isaiah 5:20

    20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
    Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
    Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    Christian meditation/prayer tells us to LOOK TO GOD, LOOK TO JESUS CHRIST for our salvation, our help.

    The New Age meditation tells us to look inward for your salvation.

    Matthew 6:7-15

    7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
    8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
    Our Father in heaven,
    Hallowed be Your name…

    Contemplative Prayer is not Biblical prayer at all, the meditation you are endorsing is leading the mind to an altered state of consciousness. Soon you will start experiencing things, and feeling things, and your senses will be heightened, etc. New Age prayer/meditation is based on experiences rather than sound doctrine. Oh look we are back at your verse again: 1 Tim 4:13 “13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.” What does it say? Give attendance to doctrine, give attendance to the ENTIRE WORD OF GOD. Not experiences and little rituals.

    1 John 5:14-15

    “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”

    Hmmm very very different to what you are trying to promote as being biblical.

    In your article: How to pray when you’ve got nothing to say

    You say: “How do you pray? I often use the acrostic ACTS: Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving and Supplication.”

    You sure have your rituals down to a fine art…

    Just going back to the very first question I asked, and yeah I know a vote is supposed to be ‘secret’ but hey were are in Africa and I am allowed to guess that you said ‘YES’ right? You see my poll is going to tell us a lot about what is going on in the world today.

  5. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    I think your article and my comment deserves to be in an article :)

  6. Mark Penrith says:

    Hi Deborah,

    Have you intentionally misrepresented what I wrote?

    I most certainly wasn’t advocating contemplative meditation or any Eastern practise for that matter. I described a work function I attended where this procedure had been practised, I explained that I didn’t participate, I described asking someone else what they thought of the affair and then I recorded my response, “You didn’t think it all a bit… New Age?”

    You taken everything I said out of context and have falsely presented my intended meaning. My point was summarized in the last paragraph,

    ”…grab a Bible. Find a praise Psalm (Psalm 145 would be a great place to start). Read it, mull over it, study it, think on it, understand it, chew on it and pray to God all the while. That’s it, that’s meditation.”

    The image I chose for the post is employed for the same reason you’ve used an image title “HOW TO PRACTISE MEDITATIVE PRAYER”. It’s related to the content not my believe.

    On Catholicism I’ve written plenty but perhaps the clearest content I’ve penned is found here (http://markpenrith.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/out-of-the-frying-pan-and-into-the-fire/).

    Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving and Supplication embodies an appropriate way to approach God the Father through Jesus Christ His Son. Most of the Psalms contain similar elements as well as many of the prayers in the New Testament. Can you truly deny that these elements are Biblical?

  7. Michael Anthony says:

    Quote from the article…

    >>> ‘Allow God to speak to you’ >>>

    God has already spoken , first through the prophets and now through his son, also by the Holy Spirit inspired word of the apostles. I beleive God the Holy Spirit can guide you, lead you into all truth, make his ways known to you, teach you through his word, warn you through others and show you things to come, correct, discipline and chastise you, give you an unction, give you peace about something, bring you comfort…etc. But ‘speak’ to you? Nah….wait, let me think about this again…..*thinks*……wait-for-it; here’s my answer; nah.

    This is what the reformation was all about – the sufficiency of scripture. God has already spoken and addressed every issue. The result? We abide in his word daily and search the scriptures. Need Wisdom? Ask God for it, he wil give it to you. Etc..

    I am sure not everybody will agree. But this is where the problem lies; the exact definition of ‘God speaking’ to you. It creates all sorts of problems and if not properly checked it is a recipe for the worst kind of seduction and deception.

    Someone may quote ‘my sheep know my voice’ but remember that he (Jesus Christ, the good sheperd) also does not change; his word is forever established. If he does speak it is through his already-established word.

    Touchy point, but I have had my fill of God told me this and God told me that. Normally by people that do not have any solid grounding in what God has already said.

    Ever heard this one; ‘My child, you have been especially chosen (for such a time as this or something similar), I have put a special calling on you and I will do great signs and wonders through you.’

    Is that God? Nope – notice on who the focus is on; self. Who does it elevate. God? No, man.

    We obey the Gospel, he directs our paths. You are welcome to correct me.

  8. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Mark

    You see, you write in such a manner that it’s difficult for anyone to actually say ‘oh that’s not right’ or ‘oh that’s not right’ because you have put little ‘get me out of jail free cards’ here and there to use as backup and then you very easily turn around and say, ‘oh but…you are misinterpreting me’

    So, I’ll leave it at that.

  9. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Michael

    >> But ’speak’ to you? Nah….wait, let me think about this again…..*thinks*……wait-for-it; here’s my answer; nah.

    I concur.

  10. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Mark

    Do you not understand that what you are playing with now, let’s call it, baby steps meditation is going to lead you and those believe you into deeper things?

    The picture I used came from Mark Driscoll’s website. I did not choose that picture.

    Anyhow, you advocate meditation, and what you describe doing, taking psalms and reading it, mulling over it…etc. It the start of meditation. One day you will be doing other types of mediation because you needed something more fulfilling.

    You see the fact that you can even endorse any kind of meditation other than normal biblical prayer is what I find scary. If anything I think is even remotely not kosher, I don’t touch it, for I know the consequences of sin. So why are you dipping your toes in forbidden waters?

  11. Mark Penrith says:

    Hi Deborah,

    As a kid I always had to get the last word in. I apologise. It’s a failing.

    My third last paragraph reads, “Nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that meditation involves visualising, repetition or the use of mantras or any other Eastern Religious influenced rituals or rights.” That’s directly at odds with the way you chose to represent what I wrote, no two ways about it.

    I’m a bit sheltered from the happenings in the big bad world and have only heard Mark Driscoll’s preach once, so I hardly know the man, but, as I asked above, I’d like your opinion, “I’ve read my namesake’s article a few times and… well, other than abusing Luke 10:38-42 I’m not sure he’s that far off. A quite place, designated time, Scripture focus and interaction with the Lord (I’m assuming that He doesn’t mean a direct revelatory interaction) is all good stuff. ” … isn’t it?

    You needn’t answer this evening as it’s getting late and even heresy busters like youself need their beauty sleep :).

  12. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Mark

    Took your advice and slept lol

    You need to go and do more digging into what Mark and friends are REALLY advocating. And it’s not what you think. Never the less, normal prayer is what is approved in scripture not meditation.

    Tell me something, honestly now. What do you get out of reading the same passage over and over again, thinking about it and praying at the same time? Can you explain to me in great detail exactly what you do. Because in the Bible no one did what you describe. Mark speaks about getting to step 4 – hearing God’s voice. Is the Holy Spirit not abiding in you when you are saved and you hear His voice? What Mark is endorsing is the ‘unsaved’ version of hearing ‘god’s voice. Which means people who fall for this have opened themselves up completely to the demonic.

    Heresy buster over and out.

  13. Merry Helper says:

    Alo Alo

    Good fella’s
    Words: Eastern, Body positions, catholic, Repetition and Meditation.
    To me these words have been used to describe things that have added tremendous value to my life, may they bless your life too.

    Deborah, “Are Catholics Christians?”. Methinks you seek to mock Catholics, why?

    In a deep sense of Love
    Blessings
    MH

  14. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Marry Helper

    >> Words: Eastern, Body positions, catholic, Repetition and Meditation.
    To me these words have been used to describe things that have added tremendous value to my life, may they bless your life too.

    No it’s quite alright thank you. I have Jesus Christ the Son of God.

    >> Deborah, “Are Catholics Christians?”. Methinks you seek to mock Catholics, why?

    No I seek to find out how many people think Catholics are Chrisian. It’s called a survey.

  15. Michael Anthony says:

    Merry H,

    Yeah, and over here we treat Mary as just another sinner saved by Grace (shock, horror), just like everybody else. BTW, you know that she had more children after Jesus, right? She did not stay a virgin. Plus Jesus addressed her as ‘woman’ at one stage.

    So, those things (Eastern, Body positions, catholic, Repetition and Meditation), what would that make Jesus Christ be amongst all that? An accessory?

    It is not the cross + some other practice that brings salvation. It is the work of the cross alone.

    Mock catholics? No. Why would anybody want to do that? I would however warn them that some of their practices are not biblical, in fact demonic. Worshipping the ‘queen of heaven’ is tempting God almighty’s anger. (Jeremiah 7:18-19)

    >>> To me these words have been used to describe things that have added tremendous value to my life, may they bless your life too. >>>

    Exactly how have they blessed your life?

  16. Michael Anthony says:

    Here is an exercise.

    Go, for instance, to biblegateway.com and use a well-known bible version (ie new King James). Type in the word ‘meditate’ and you get 10 instances (all OT) then type in ‘meditation’ and you get 9 instances (all OT).

    In every single context this word is used about being mindful of, to consider deeply, to comtenplate, etc. Not one instance where prayer is even mentioned in the same sentence or paragraph. Pretty straightfoward. You would think….

  17. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Michael

    >> Pretty straightfoward. You would think….

    Well you would think so..

    >> In every single context this word is used about being mindful of, to consider deeply, to comtenplate, etc.

    Um…you’re not helping me here dude LOL, cos this is what they ‘the contemplaters’ will tell you too. But those 19 instances of meditate in the Bible are NOT anything like how ‘the contemplaters’ meditate.

    For instance taking a passage of Scripture and reading it over and over and over again, thinking, thinking, chewing on it, mulling over it? I’ve never heard of anything like this before. When I read scripture I get it, like 1+1 = 2. Simple. When I pray, I pray, I do not meditate.

    So when Mark comes back *pokes Mark* I wanna know from him what he actually accomplishes after ‘meditating’ the so called Biblical way.

  18. Michael Anthony says:

    Deborah,

    Let me hmm, contemplate on that first.

    OK, done con…(can’t say the word). The context of most of those scriptures is consider, meditate on the word of God or the law of God. In its simplest context it means to study and analyse these things. I am sure if one did not understand a scripture the fisrt time ’tis perfectly OK to read it a second time. Perfectly OK to memorize scripture. But to repeat it a third time? And a 4th? And a 5th? Till you become dizzy and go ainga! ainga! thinking you are now plugged into some cosmic power? No.

    Bible study is bible sudy and prayer is prayer, two different things.

    If one meditates on a scripture and focuses only that scripture, and makes it go over and over in the mind then that would be treating the word of God as mystical and this is nothing more than sanitized magic.

    Making a scripture repetitive is making it into an object, making it into an object is centering. Centering means God is out of the picture and you have made that object god.

    Fine line this thing.

  19. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Michael

    Ahh much better lol.

  20. Merry Helper says:

    Alo Alo

    Coming at ya like Cleopatra.

    Deborah after your Catholic Survey, consider doing: How many people think Grass is Green?

    Catholics get a lot wrong as do other groups, Traditions are their biggest down. Then again will you have Christmas this yaer? Is it in Scripture? HAHAHAHA, oh tradition.

    Methinks the way the Steps for Meditative Prayer are layed out is accurate and can add value, use it /don’t use it, one often finds the truth on the path they chose to avoid it, see either way they are focused on it, the Truth that is, and this eed is sown.

    Brother Michael Anthony.
    Although your wording can be ambiguous at times, tis mostly accurate, very fierce though. To tease, I put his too you: Mary the Mother of God.

    Should you seek to know my twisted self beta:
    [EDITED: URL REMOVED]

    All the Blessings
    MH

  21. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    >> Deborah after your Catholic Survey, consider doing: How many people think Grass is Green?

    No my next one is: Are you happy that you are being forced into a One World Government whether you like it or not?

    >> Catholics get a lot wrong as do other groups, Traditions are their biggest down. Then again will you have Christmas this year? Is it in Scripture? HAHAHAHA, oh tradition.

    No, but it’s a free holiday and is treated as such. Family get together with lots to eat. As for being a pagan holiday with the 25th Dec being the birth of the Sun God throughout the centuries from Babylon till now…who cares. I do not worry about superstitious things for my God created ALL and ALL the EARTH contains. I give thanks to Jesus Christ the Son of God and through Him all is blessed and all Glory is His.

    1 Corinthians 10:26
    26 FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD’S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.

    1 Corinthians 10:28-32
    28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake;
    29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?
    30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?
    31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
    32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

    >> Methinks the way the Steps for Meditative Prayer are layed out is accurate and can add value, use it /don’t use it, one often finds the truth on the path they chose to avoid it, see either way they are focused on it, the Truth that is, and this eed is sown.

    Will you denounce the Mother Church as being false for you have chosen another path more fitting for yourself? Whether you choose east or west, north or south, all roads lead back to Rome, so save yourself the trip and just stay there. Your Mother Earth, Gaiya is once again the Queen of Heaven and all paths lead back to her…

    You have sown no seed on this blog, everything you have said has already been spoken off in other articles and found seriously wanting.

    Teasing by saying “Mary the Mother of God”. You can’t be serious? None of this affects us. It’s those caught up in this horrid religion that we warn to get out of. You do not know Jesus Christ the Son of God, would you like to know him personally that you may receive TRUE salvation and not empty lies based on false ‘feelings and experiences”?

  22. Amanda says:

    Mark

    I’ve read my namesake’s article a few times and… well, other than abusing Luke 10:38-42 I’m not sure he’s that far off.

    Charlie Broxton used the same text from Luke in a sermon called: “Give Peace a Chance: Lectio Divina” Chris Rosebrough from Pirate Christian Radio reviewed it here.
    Dr. Johan Geyser also used the same text. You can read what Thomas over at Watch and Pray wrote about that dreadful event: A biblical appraisal of the Mosaic Congress held at the Mosaic Church in Fairlands, Johannesburg (4 – 5 Sept. 2009) (Part 2) here.
    Geyser:

    Of course, the effect of this sitting is a transformation. Its not just to make you better. Look at what happened to Mary after her sitting. We get it in John 12, after the resurrection of Lazarus they’ve got a meeting; Martha the activist, its Simon the leper, it is Judas the thief, it is Lazarus . . . the ex-corpse; your typical Sunday morning congregation, you know. And she comes in and breaks the flask with the very expensive perfume and she anoints Jesus, and of course there’s this one argument that ends all arguments — the poor, you could have given it to the poor. And Jesus says, No! You do not understand what she did. She was preparing me for my burial. Two things: she had an insight that none of the other disciples had about the death, the meaning of the death of Jesus. Nobody could see it. The only person . . . was a woman and it was Mary that did the sitting. The sitting prepared and helped her to listen to Jesus at a deep inner level and to hear things that other people couldn’t hear. And it inspired her to action, to love, to love. . . . Jesus said: because of what Mary did I am more prepared for my death. Because of what Mary did; the way that she loved and that she expressed her extravagant love for me I am more ready to die now. We can help to prepare each other for our death because if you love you are ready . . . Nobody would have been bothered if she did it after Jesus’ death, no problem, but to do it while He’s alive? She had this new capacity to love and she had this new insight. You see, she had a different presence. . . It is not necessary doing this extravagant, extraordinary things. Its the ordinary but extraordinary ordinary. Out of being flows a new way of doing. The old tradition says, it has to do with unity with God and some people will say, no no, unity sounds like one with God against everything else in the world. Perhaps its more of unitive seeing; to see God everywhere in everything — to see God in everything.

    And Session 2: Transfiguration: Up and down the mountain – Trevor Hudson
    Mark, you said:

    My third last paragraph reads, “Nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that meditation involves visualising, repetition or the use of mantras or any other Eastern Religious influenced rituals or rights.”

    Then discern Thomas’ take on Session 3: Being a radical pilgrim and prophet – Stephan Joubert.

    Have you noticed Joubert’s subtle demotion of Jesus Christ from the Son of the living God to a sage who supposedly never linked onto the purity story in Leviticus but opted for the wisdom story in which no one is excluded because He supposedly never bothered about “who is saved [and] who is not?” What utter, utter nonsense! Proverbs, the epitome of God’s wisdom to which Stephan Joubert often referred, explicitly declares that “he who is wise, wins souls” (Proverbs 11:30). What Stephan Joubert purports to be wise is not wisdom at all but sheer foolishness. His entire eisegesis with regard to Jesus Christ’s attitude to the lost and the saved, is an outright denial of the prime purpose of his incarnation which is to seek and to save the lost (Luke 19:10). It is the fool who cares not “who is saved and who is not.” It is the wise who dearly cares about the winning of souls so that those who are lost may be saved. There is only one conclusion to be made and that is that the emergent fraternity are not seekers after or followers after wisdom but fools who do not care who is lost and who is saved, and the most disturbing thing about this is that they are making a Christ after their own image — a false Christ who shuns purity and does not care who is saved and who is not. South Africa! What else do these false apostles and prophets need to teach you before you realize they are leading you along primrose paths into the darkest recesses of the abyss?

    Voila! Jesus the Sage of God is no longer the Saviour of the World who cares about who is saved and who is not, but a wisdom teacher or The World Teacher who teaches you how to be a Christ-follower, irrespective of the religion you adhere to. And now you can better understand why Stephan Joubert could say such an unbiblical thing as the following.

    It [the Emergent Church] involves people who have a passion to say [that] the world and its culture in our generation need to be won back to Christ. And therefore I am not going to criticise their culture but I’m going to engage it. Therefore, I’m not going to take on their spirituality and postulate my truths. I’m going to listen to what they have to say because I can prove [to them] the truth ad infinitum as I did in the 1960’s, and I can debate with a Buddhist or a Hindu and sit there with them and say ‘here is my truth, here are my stuff.’ But now as an Emerging Church guy I will say [to them], let us listen . . . I’m not going to try and change you but you also have the right to hear how I feel and I’m not going to make any excuses for who I am. I’m not going to force my religion down your throat.

    I know it takes a strong stomach to go through this, but perhaps it will open your eyes a little to what is going on right under your nose inside the church in South Africa and not in “the big bad world” out there somewhere.

  23. Merry Helper says:

    Alo Alo

    Debs thanx for the constructive angles in your last script. I do not attend Catholic church but that said methinks you have digested alot of Prperganda wrt this Organisation. You’d do well to write down all your challenges about it, and Meet with a local parish priest to seek another objective angle, PS: Mary was the mother of Jesus, Jesus was God,that is an important point.

    Lemme Guess: You have recieved True salvation.
    Are you in heaven with Yahweh already. Oh you have just been assured of your salvation, kewl. Will you be Judged then or do you bypass that?

    Blessings
    MH
    D

  24. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    >> Mary was the mother of Jesus, Jesus was God

    Yes, Mary a human woman was the mother of Jesus Christ. Mary is NOT holy and has NOfuture in the salvation of mankind. There is no other mediator except for Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus Christ, born of the Holy Spirit – Jesus IS God, not past tense as you put it “Jesus was God”

    >> You’d do well to write down all your challenges about it, and Meet with a local parish priest to seek another objective angle.

    I have the Word of God. I don’t need to seek man made advice.

    As for the rest of your comment. I can ask the same of you: Will you be judged or do you bypass that too. No one is exempt from His judgement. It says so in His word. You should read it sometime.

    Anyhow, you have the freedom to accept or deny Jesus Christ. I can’t force you to believe in Him. He has done nothing to hurt you, why do you hate Him so much?

  25. Merry Helper says:

    Amen
    Jesus is God [twas a context ting]
    True every knee will bow and sheep and goats split. uust having a laff at you word Saved [The passed tense of it,haha [twisd humour]

    Your last para:
    Free choice, forced belief, hahaha
    Jesus above all, amen.

    Thankyou for reading my replies, till next time
    MH

  26. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Merry Helper

    I think you need to cut back on whatever you are smoking, it’s not good for you. really.

  27. Amanda says:

    Mark

    Are you agreeing with those two statements or finding fault with them?

    Neither. I am inviting you to follow the clues and connect the dots. Then you will begin to understand why the sheep are fleeing the dangerous Dutch Reformed Church.

    More clues. The fourth participant at Mosaiek was Ron Martoia. See what you think.

    I spoke at a spirituality congress in South Africa where quite honestly I was a spiritual peon amongst giants. Willem Nichol, Trevor Hudson, Johan Geyser, Gys Du Plessis and Stephan Joubert all my elders and all more deeply experienced, were the docket of speakers at this conversation on the what and how of spirituality.

    More than ever I am convinced apophatic spirituality, Cloud of Unknowing type of stuff is part of the missing pattern in our formation. We are clueless how to do Psalm 46.10 spirituality and instead of learning to be still (an interior condition) I think we have confused it with sitting still (an exterior posture).

    The most dramatic thing I am reminded of on a nearly daily basis is just how modern, textual and information our spirituality is. Interestingly this is not where Bonaventure sat (think Soul’s Journey to God), or St Teresa of Avila (Interior Castle) or San Juan de La Cruz (St. John of the Cross) or earlier still John Cassian’s Conferences. I was reminded by these great mentors I shared the platform with just how rare the work is on interior silence is where
    we can watch the constructed egoic self in action. Where we take insight from what arises in our awareness and how to move toward the letting go of a centering practice (the main point of my talk Silence is the First Language of God {a quote from St John of the Cross})

    We must must must move beyond the textual addiction of modernity and move toward the place of quiet. Only there can we see the judger gene, the real issue raised in the Genesis 1-3 narrative, and learn the letting go work that needs to be done for us to be deeply formed.

    More. :

    I am sure you are all familiar with the experiments done by Richard Davidson and Monks? If you don’t remember, this is the professor that hooked experienced meditating monks and demonstrated actual changes in the brain. Here is the Wired magazine version [ Links in the original]

    Meditators actually are rewiring circuitry in a permanent way. Bringing lasting peace and calm, more equanimity, less reactionary responses etc… this is one of the only things we know that rewires the brain like this. Centering prayer, a very specific type of meditative prayer creates a mental model softening that enables us to let go, a critical skill in being able to bear fruit of the spirit.

    …Transformation starts with RENEWING THE MIND a biblical notion that is found in every tradition where seeing the transformation of the human being was considered important.

  28. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Amanda

    If all else fails on the other end. Can just post stuff under it’s own articles.

  29. Mark Penrith says:

    @Amanda,

    I don’t think I understand your point. I wrote:

    1) Mark Driscoll abused Luke 10:38-42
    2) “Nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that meditation involves visualising, repetition or the use of mantras or any other Eastern Religious influenced rituals or rights.”

    Are you agreeing with those two statements or finding fault with them?

  30. Deborah (Discerning the World) says:

    Mark

    Oh you are back, great :)

    Can you perhaps tell me why reading pslams or any other passage over and over again, thinking about it, meditating on it is something that is considered different to normal biblical prayer? What do you find different about the two? In other words, do you feel different when doing it? Does one feel more powerful than the other? I am asking this because ‘meditation’ has been seperated from prayer – so they are two different practices. What benefits, feelings, upliftment do you get from what you consider to be biblical meditation.

    Gosh I am having a bad day today, I hope my question to you makes sense.

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