‘Everything Must Change’ Back to Roman Catholicism

Emerging Africa roman catholicismThere is a conversation going on at the Emerging Africa website under the post Christian Piracy regarding my defence for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and my ongoing never to end ‘good fight’ for the TRUTH.  I made a comment there which was supposed to be a 10 liner and turned into like 5 pages.  If they post it they post it, otherwise I’ll just put it here.

** please note that I have added extra notes that were not included in the comment on Emerging Africa at the bottom of this article.

The comment revolves around clarifying a few issues, which I hope will put some persective on what is going on in their own Emerging movement.


Comment at Emerging Africa is as follows:

Hi people, yes it’s me your favourite person in the whole wide world 🙂

I have read this entire thread and I am quite impressed.  I just want to clarify a few things.  *Ok I have come back to type this little part in *stars here because this has turned into being one seriously long comment…sorry.  But then again I am sure there are books out there that are even longer that you might not complain about*

1)  Judging is not about a person’s life – we judge what they say that contradicts scripture.  I will never judge someone based on what they do in their life or the sin in their life, but I will say what the Word of God has to say about repentance, changing ones ways, being saved through Jesus Christ the Son of God.  For instance I do not agree that homosexuality is in any way right.  But I still love these people; it’s the sin that is wrong.  Before God’s eyes it’s wrong.  But through repentance and humbling ourselves before God through Jesus Christ we are forgiven.  But that does not mean you can continue living in perpetual sin, no it means willing wanting to change your ways and not sin anymore.  Again we can’t do this on our own and this is why we seek Jesus’ help.  We need Holy Spirit conviction.  Your own conscience is not going to cut you deeply regarding what the world thinks is morally correct or incorrect.  Only God can do this in your heart.

2)  The bible MUST be read literally, historically and in context and there is ALWAYS a spiritual context as well (this you won’t find being taught at universities) and it always will point us to repentance of sin.  That sin is the major core of the Bible and that God is a Holy God who does not tolerate disobedience (sin from those who refuse Him), but through His grace and love for those who want to change and believe in His Son Jesus Christ will be saved – again this can only happen if you humble yourself before GOD and repent and admit we are full of sin and don’t want to be that way.

I hate quoting this cliché because it annoys me:  ‘I am not perfect, just forgiven’ but right now at this point it really does ring true.  HOWEVER this is taken and twisted by most ‘Christians’ as being ‘I am a Christian because I believe in ‘a’ Jesus, I am only human, can do as I want, just as long as I an good to others, God won’t be angry with me, He loves me, I don’t believe he would punish anyone.’

Yes, I am sure your earthly father never once punished you for disobeying him – Now take this punishment to a level unheard of – FOR GOD IS GOD and IF HE SAYS He will punish us, He will.  HE BRUISED JESUS AND IT PLEASED HIM.  I won’t argue with Him on this.  You can if you want.  We all love to appease our consciences and make excuses.  The fact of the matter no matter how one tries to change scripture it will remain the same.  People can try deconstructing it till the cows come home, it won’t change what God said.

3)  I really DO understand the Emergent ‘conversation’. No really, I do. And there are many things within the Emerging… let’s call it a ‘movement’ that are not one bit biblical.   I am going to say this and you can use it against me, I really don’t care but I came from a serious occult background and Jesus Christ (the biblical one) saved me from this nightmare.  There are subtle and sometimes blatant occult ideas, teachings and practices with the Emergent church.  For some unknown reason people seem to be deceived by the idea that in order for something to be occult it must be dark and dreary and look evil.  Well no, Satan comes as an angel of Light.  It does not have to be all black to be satanic.  Wiccans will argue that they are not Satanists for they do ‘good’ with their magic, Satanist will argue that Wiccans are Christian because they do good with their magic.  Do you see the downright ridiculousness of this?  If not, try.   But then things have been so contorted that now when it is presented to us all black and dreary everyone thinks there is nothing wrong with it.  I just want to cry sometimes.  You don’t know what you are doing.  I do, because I have been there.  But don’t take my word for it.  Go to JESUS CHRIST – the real one and ask him.

Again you know your heart!  You know if you are completely happy to wallow around in the shadows and take baby steps further and further into darkness.  Or come to Jesus Christ and repent because you know it’s wrong and want to get out of this hell hole you are digging yourself deeper and deeper into.

4)  The root of the emerging church is Roman Catholic and disagree as you may but the Eucharistic Christ of Catholicism is not the Jesus Christ that walked this earth and gave His life as a sacrifice for those WHO BELIEVE in Him.  In other words, just because someone has a picture of Jesus or Him on a cross does not mean it’s actually Jesus Christ.  Many spirits comes around with the name of Jesus, many strange beliefs use Jesus as their focal point, but it’s NOT  the REAL Jesus Christ who is the Word of God made flesh (1 John 4).  If you deconstruct scripture (sorry Roger, have to use your ‘deconstruct’ word here – not writing about you) you ARE under NO UNCERTAIN TERMS deconstructing Jesus Christ, you are breaking Him down and placing Him on a human level which He is NOT.  He is God.

5)  People do not understand who God really is.  When you realise who GOD really is and even though He loves the world and its little people (that HE CREATED) so much that He would sacrifice Himself for us – does not give us license at all to disobey Him.  What makes us think we are that special?  Because the world really can’t handle the fact that they are weak, quite pathetic, useless and powerless without that ‘crutch’ called Jesus Christ.  How much power do you think you can obtain via spiritual rituals that will make you in any way special or even 1mm closer to being like Jesus Christ?  How much do we understand what ‘power’ really is in relation to God’s power to wipe us out in less than a blink of an eye.   No we actually have no clue.  What we think is great is miniscule and completely null and void of anything special compared to what God can do and will do to those who think they know better.

6)  Believing in Jesus Christ and not changing your sinful ways means absolutely nothing.  There is a big misconception that if a Muslim believes in Jesus and continues being Muslim that they are now part of the body of Christ.  No.  End of Story. This leads me to my next point…

7)  Culture and Religion are two different things.  I am going to use a ridiculous example:  A tribe of indigenous people hear the Word of God and become saved.  They continue to track animals, live in huts and continue with how they do normal daily life.  They will however NOT want to sin and will break their Idols, stop feasts that were dedicated to their gods, and cease to believe in the spirits that spoke LIES to them in the first place.  That is the difference.  The ‘continued’ notion that western people force people to change their cultures and dress like westerners when they become Christian is just ludicrous.  I have no idea where this is even in scripture.  It’s a man made lie.  Just because a Christian movement (who were wrong) tried to do this does not mean one can now trample on Christianity as a whole and start scratching out verses in the Bible.

8)  I am not Calvinist, Protestant, or any other name.  Truth has been shattered through history across many different Christian doctrines.  Does this mean Calvinists are wrong?  Nope.  But there are some things within this movement/doctrine that are seriously problematic and have spawned breakaway movements (people who chose to follow the error and take it further).  Am I full on cessationist?  No.  I believe in signs and wonders but NOT the way Word of Faith teaches it (this Christian movement is riddled with some serious occult teaching).  Do I despise prophecy?  No, because prophecy is the Word of God.   I am not a fundamentalist either.  But you can call me this if you wish.

I am a born again Christian who wants to have the best relationship (not religion), but relationship with God I can have through His Son Jesus Christ (the real one, not the Jesus presented to us in all these new movements that everyone seems to just be falling over left right and centre – Jesus said that true Christians will be hated for His name sake)  – AGAIN this is twisted to ‘oh if we are being hated or persecuted then that makes us true Christians or on the right path’ – rubbish. Millions of unbelievers have been murdered and persecuted for their beliefs by other non-Christian religions throughout history, does that make them saved, and does this make them right in any way?  No.  Will there ever be peace?  No.  For this world is sinful.  And all this peace talk is going to whether you like it or not end up in a place where you thought was not possible.

9)  I find it highly unbelievably past the point of ridiculous that Christians who hold onto scripture, protecting orthodox Christianity that Jesus Christ taught and specifically TOLD and COMMANDED us to spread are now ‘bad, bad, bad people full of hate who want nothing but to harm others, to the point of being compared to those who tortured and murdered Christians during Inquisitions.’  Again here we have people calling themselves Christian (Rome) murdering (sinning, 10 commandment disobeying) people who refuse to believe in what they believe.  I am sorry, but where in the word of God does Jesus tell any of His disciples to harm anyone let alone murder anyone who did not want to listen to them?  Nowhere.  So what on earth makes anyone think that a GENUINE Christian would do such a thing?  Well, common logic would (you don’t need a degree to figure this out) carve it into stone that they were NOT Christian.  And to make sure you were thinking properly and not completely of your mind, you would check scripture and low and behold the brain that God gave you to reason is on the right track.  Moving right along…

10)  You cannot incorporate occult teaching into the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Once you do this it is NO longer the gospel anymore.  Simple.  It’s like making pure apple juice – once you put in grape juice it’s no longer pure apple juice.  Great…  I am happy we understand this.

11)  How do you know if you are following teachings that are unsavory and occult, well as much as anyone would want to deny this, you know if you are following something that is wrong and ungodly;  EVERYONE right around the world knows in their hearts what they are really up to.  Also there is so much info out there now-a-days on what is occult that if someone professes to be a spiritualist or Tolle follower and you find your ‘Christian’ friends are following the same then, well… yes… there is something horribly wrong -especially when they say they are not like really Christian, kind of, sort of go to church (see paragraph 14 were I speak about church so you don’t misunderstand me on this issue) and prefer to just do and believe in what seems right.  And yes you need to judge what they are doing – God commands we test ALL things in order that we are not led astray.  We are all held accountable for our own thoughts and deeds, we can’t blame anyone else for what goes on in our hearts and the things we choose to follow instead of obeying God and HIS WORD.

12)  This is a general post; any reference to ‘you’ is to everyone (who wants to listen).  Otherwise don’t listen.  I care enough to speak the truth and stand up and be hated and called names.  And no this is not the woe is me persecution speech.  This is where the ‘I don’t care’ what you think comes into the picture.  Almost lastly…

13)  Test everything, even this thing called ‘love’ that mankind so easily showers on everyone nowadays but deep down you know if you really have love in your heart.  And until you learn to love Jesus Christ the Son of God first and be saved hence you change your ways and stop offending God through the sin in your life, don’t expect to even think you can help others spiritually when you yourself have no clue what humbleness and serving God means.  Seek first the Kingdom of God and all righteousness will be added unto you.  And notice I am not going to literally explain this verse.  This means, seek God first, through His Son Jesus Christ (Jesus is the Kingdom of God), be saved, repent, and you will be forgiven and righteousness will be given to you through getting on your knees before God and letting Him know that you will never be perfect, you make no excuses for yourself, and you are a permanent sinner who wants to ask for forgiveness permanently.  Get this part right, I beg of you.  Then you will know what Christ like love is.  Jesus Christ was born sinless, walked this earth sinless and died sinless – to be the perfect sacrifice.  We will NEVER ever, ever, ever be Him for again…HE IS GOD.

Helping people and building communities and trying to build your Kingdom on earth?  Nah man… you miss the plot completely.  Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of God and when you are save His Holy Spirit comes to bide in you.  If you are trying to build your kingdom on the outside…well…there be a problem.  And NO, this does not mean because you have the Holy Spirit in you, you now actually start becoming like Christ.   Untwist this blasphemous idea that we can do what He did.

14)  To be held to a membership of a church or community is a load of brainwashed nonsense.  We are told to fellowship, yes, indeed, but NOT the way we have been taught.  We are all accountable first to GOD and then to each other for speaking the TRUTH.  To have one man and a panel of board members dictate the menu for the month when the Bible says that the Bible is GOOD ENOUGH to teach you all by your little lonesome is just showing us the control organized Christianity holds over us.  And where does this notion stem from?  Rome.   If you don’t belong to the Mother Church then you are not catholic… sound familiar?  And here the EC is following after catholic strongholds while fighting against organized religion.

So here you are trying to break down Christianity for its holds and bars, trying to create new holds and bars.  Does this mean we can’t ask other GENUINE Christians for help?  Just because God says the Bible His Word is good enough for teaching, rebuking etc does not mean we become geniuses overnight – this is why we are still told to fellowship BUT with Genuinely saved Christians.  Not just any person who comes around and calls themselves Christian and brings with them a basket of leaven.  And it makes no difference how nice you are to them they just refuse to change their ways.  So, when we don’t want them around not we are being hateful.  My word.  What a disaster.  But hey if you feel you want to hang with person who you can clearly see are not good after you told them what they were doing was not good, then great, that’s your problem to deal with in the end for not listen to GOD’s GREAT WISDOM on the matter – where He COMMANDS that you remove these people from amongst yourselves.  He was not being nasty; He is telling you they are going to cause division and discourse so tell them to go away.

15) The ‘new’ church feels that they are solely responsible for changing a person’s heart by keeping them within their community in the hope that one day they will change.   Have you never come across people who will do and say anything just to get a bowl of ‘free’ food? (And this has got nothing to do with starving people, I am talking about people in general), or let’s change it to ‘…will do anything to get to have their own community’. But in their hearts they are wondering how and when they will get their chance to steal your wallet and if they just happen to stab you in the process, well then to bad so sad.

WE DO NOT SAVE PEOPLE.  GOD SAVES PEOPLE.  We are told to preach the truth, the gospel of Jesus Christ, that’s it.  And don’t come with silly questions and say, ‘oh but are you saying we are not supposed to help people’.  Whatever…you know what I mean; you just choose to not want to pay attention.

No matter how you look at it, there will always be someone at the top of the food chain.  This will never change.  Right now the entire world wants to be on top.  So how do we fix this problem?  Oh, well…just make everyone equal and the ‘same’ and one global community of smurfs.  Problem is, there will always be a leader.   I thought it was hysterical listening to a Transformation ‘expert’ in his field talking about changing the world, and how we are all one and the same.  He stands on the stage showing everyone how special he is and at the same time tells the audience that he is not anything great, and then name drops and rattles off his copious amount of degrees.  Then during the same seminar shows a hierarchy of how man can transcend, as if you are a level 0 then you are stupid but wait till you get to the top.  Ag whatever.   Does anyone actually really listen to what they are being told?  All becoming mindless, bible-less do good-ers.  And the more mindless one becomes the more apparently Christian you are.

16)  Ok, I just realised how long this is…sorry.  You all know I get carried away when I start.  There is no point placing a statement of faith on a website or church door because again – it means nothing.  Look at Rhema Church’s statement of faith.  It looks great.  Then you get to the bottom and there is one paragraph what makes what they said previously null and void.  Just toss it out the window – cos that’s their statements of faith is worth.   Speaking like a Christian does not make one a Christian.

17)  Lastly, I am a woman, but men are the head.  My husband is who looks after me.  But you know how it turned out to be that women are the ones having to take a stand?  Because of mankind’s sin, women wanted to be liberated, so they got it.  They wanted high positions, so they got it.  But there’s not enough space for the world to be at the top, so someone had to be removed.  Well, there are only 2 genders, so men it must be, they need to go, get out of that ‘head of the home’ position.

The world creates its own problems through disobedience to God’s Word and sinning and then we complain when things don’t work out they way we thought it would.  No, you kidding?  It goes back to us being the ‘smart’ ones.  The way the world now and for the last 6000 years is NOT the way it was supposed to be.  But because of OUR SIN it has turn out to be this way and it’s getting worse and worse and it won’t stop.  Now we have women taking a stand cos all the men are at a mighty men conference or Ama’horror’ being taught a load of hogwash to bring home to their families.

Nowhere in the bible does God say that a women needs to summit to false teaching.  How doff do you think we are?  That’s certainly not a husband’s love for his wife and family.  That is certainly not what God intended, but mankind wanted to know good from evil – and now no one can distinguish good from evil.  And then when we take a stand we are told to keep quiet.  But at the same time you promote that we are were in the 21st century where ‘everything must change’.  Hmmm…

18)  Ok…I am finished.  You may now attack me ferociously with words.   Physical sticks and stones I do have a problem with.

If you have any questions, please just re-read what I wrote.  Please.

EAoE.   Errors and omissions excepted.


Extra stuff that I did not write on the comment at Emerging Africa:

Roman Catholicism = the first ever successful religiously communistic regime. They ruled with Iron teeth for hundreds of years, in fact they have been around even when Jesus Christ the Son of God walked the earth.   And they have already set themselves up to do it again. This time the entire world WILL be under their authoritarian rule.   ALL this is prophecy being fulfilled as written in the Bible.   Those who want to see the TRUTH will see it, those who don’t because they do not love the truth and the REAL Jesus Christ of scripture will follow blindly after this ungodly religion.


To those who have cooked their gooses on this site, this article does not mean you can come back and comment.  You can converse till your hearts content over at Emerging Africa where all beliefs are welcome and lead to one god.  It is amply clear as to what we believe here, if you don’t get it after 121 articles I have posted on this site so far, then well… I have no idea what more to say to clear up your confusion.

You know it’s bad when you are following Emergent ideas, but don’t want to be called Emerging because being labeled Emerging is bad but insist that Emerging dialogue is good.  Everything must change but stay the same.  We need to move forward by going backward.  We need to breakdown religious Christianity by moving to another religion that isn’t a religion but a combination of all faiths with one Christ who is not Jesus but ‘something’ else.

We all need to transcend and move vertically up the spiritual ladder in order to all become equal, because equality is what it’s all about – but if you don’t want to, that’s ok you just won’t be equal.  The body of Christ is now as per the new Christian world view a community of believers instead who all believe in something ‘Jesus’ orientated but when you speak to them about Jesus Christ they get upset and tell you to keep quiet.

You want to be unbound by the Bible and at the same time quote scripture to prove your point that the Bible is rather useless.  You insist something is not New Age or occult when you have no idea what New Age or occult means.   Darkness is light, light is darkness.  Good is evil, evil is good and telling something the truth is called hate.

The blind lead the blind, you walk into walls and you all stare at each other, too scared to say anything.  You fear the reprisal of disagreeing with all these ‘oh you are so great’ people because you have seen what they do to others who don’t want to agree.

Instead of thinking with your brain you need to think using your emotions and senses instead – forgetting that it’s your brain that allows you to think in the first place.  If someone seems like a nice person, your feelings are what now determines if someone is really a nice person or not. The less sense you make the more intelligent you become.

So the wall now becomes your deep inner struggle to break on through to the other side, instead of just turning around and saying to Jesus Christ you are wrong, and repent, tell him you are sorry.  We all land in deception.  Anyone who says they cannot be deceived already are deceived.  At the end of the day it’s your choice.  I made my decision a while back on who I would choose to serve and that would be Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour.  I had to hit rock bottom first.  I warn you because I don’t want you to land up where I did through sheer stupidity and disobedience to God because I thought I was smarter than Him.  Well did I only come of second best.   But now I am FIRST FOR HIM.

Please share:

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

73 Responses

  1. C

    >> please share with me how you’re gonna do wind-up internet access?!

    I am working on it. Have gotten no where so far. You will be the first to know 🙂 lol You I hear ‘they’ plan on increasing electricity prices by 300% over next 2 years and then another 300% over the next 2 years – and want to increase personal tax by 1% which will go to Eskom as well. So soon it’s going to costs me R1000 a month to run my microwave. So I will just increase my carbon foot print, chop down my neighbours tree and make a fire.

  2. Michael Anthony says:

    Healthcare reforms have been passed. (07/11/2009)

    The US House of Representatives has backed a healthcare bill in a step towards reforms promised by President Obama, despite strong opposition.

    Chairman Obama is fullfiling his dream of a People’s Socialist Republic of America.

  3. cecilia says:

    Michael Anthony:
    yeah, and to think they used poor little piglets as an excluse! (lol)! but we saw it coming, didn’t we (many of us…). I wanted to say thank heavens South Africa is a little behind America, but my word froze in my mind – the change seems to be going to rush like a strong wind over the whole globe… let’s keep standing and proclaim the truth, until He who comes, will not linger any more..

  4. C

    >> the change seems to be going to rush like a strong wind over the whole globe

    Thats NAR talk. What you want to say is. These new world order changes are speading quickly over the entire earth. 😉 The Apostles and Prophets reading this blog might actually view those strong winds as the ‘holy’ spirit (all lowercase) and get all excited haha.

  5. cecilia says:

    thanks! ya, one thing you’re teaching me (which I not always catch on so quickly!) is to even change the ‘old way of speaking and thinking’. I must adhere to my own comment – Rom 12:1, 2 (lol)
    thanks debs! c

  6. Email to me by Ryan Peter. First the email to me from Ryan, then my response.


    from: Ryan Peter
    to: DiscerningTheWorld
    date: 5 November 2009 10:39
    subject: Response to your latest post

    Hi DTW,

    The reason why I am sending this email to you privately is because it is pretty impassioned and I don’t want anyone or you to think it’s some sort of public attack on you.

    If you want to make it public, I have no problem with that 🙂

    Here’s what I’m responding to:

    You either care to know the truth or your want to follow wicked doctrines. Do you have a Bible? When you study it what are you doing exactly? Why oh why are you bent on trying to find another answer or something different to what the Bible says? I know the answer to this…you do too. But I want you to have the guts to say it.

    Why should I want to find anything different to what the Bible says?

    But I am wanting to find out what the Bible says, not what my culture says. I reject post-modernism and modernism – I reject liberalism and conservatism – I reject socialism and capitalism – until any of these prove themselves to line up with what the Bible says, according to study and prayer that I have to do for myself and can’t expect anyone else to do for me.

    To drive it home, I reject what Nic Paton says AND what you say, I reject what Michael Anthony and Brannon Howse says – until I am convinced, through scripture and reason, that what these people are saying IS what God is saying through His Word, the Bible, and through His Holy Spirit who lives in me and guides me into all truth.

    But how do I reject it? I do it in the context of relationships and discussion. I don’t do it in the context of bulldozing my way through debates and always needing to be right like our dear bishop Sprong did in that recent post on your blog. I’ll do it with love, respect and without compromising on truth. I’ll do it in the context of being honest and open, passionate and charitable, unsuspicious of anyone’s motives but questioning what they say, teachable but only open to the Holy Spirit and the Bible to ultimately convince me.

    Do you agree that my questioning at your blog around your beliefs, Amanda’s or Michael Anthony’s is just as valid as my questioning at Emergent Africa around what Nic Paton or Roger Saner believes? Do you think I should automatically agree with what you or Michael says just because you or he claims that they preach the gospel? Surely not. If people want to make claims that this or that is from the Bible and that they preach the true gospel, they have the responsibility of proving it.

    At the moment, I remain unconvinced that capitalism is biblically sound in its entirety. I am not wrong before God or before Michael by asking questions of this and discovering what the Bible says for myself. Michael hasn’t really proved it from scripture up to this point, and the burden of proof really is on him to do so since I am not making any particular stand on any type of economical system. I am simply asking him to take into consideration my concerns and tell me why capitalism – which he makes a stand for – he views to be so biblical.

    Paul reasoned with the jews, I am trying to reason at your blog. I don’t know why my reasoning is suddenly (and again) seen as trying to push some or other strange agenda or find another answer to what the Bible says.

    The problem with writing this rather than being able to speak to you about this on the phone is that my tone is not obvious. It is not a condescending tone, or an attacking tone. It is more in the lines of honesty and frustration that my motives are constantly questioned without any reasonability in doing so.

    At any rate, this whole capitalism debate is not really adding any value. I’m hoping that Michael produces some sources for further reading, and then I’m planning on thanking him for the discussion and bowing out of it.

    Many thanks


    from: DiscerningTheWorld
    to: Ryan Peter
    date: 9 November 2009 13:47
    subject: Re: Response to your latest post

    Ryan, I am happy with your answer. All I wanted was for you to be honest. To beat around the bush is a waste of time. I do not see what you say as an attack.

    Since when is airing your views attacking someone? I think I have said this before, in countless times, not just to you, but to others as well. However stealing someones name and writing disgusting things about them, I consider a personal attack. When someone curses me that ‘god’ blinds me I see as a personal attack. When I am asked over and over and over again where I live I see that as a personal attack. When you physically hurt someone, when you go out of your way to make a person feel uneasy, call them names – that is an attack. I pray tell you can see the difference.

    But this is actually all about Jesus Christ the Son of God, when someone speaks horrible things about Jesus Christ it hurts ME, because I love Him, He is my Saviour, my King. He is the ONE who looks after me in these perilous times. I could not care what you say about me personally or anyone else for that matter. As a little human being though, we, you, I, everyone has feelings, but do we go out and physically hurt someone, go out of our way to insult them? No. And it’s very obvious when one is just verbalising a disagreement with someone or going out of their way to be nasty!

    This has nothing to do with tone in writing. You can read the Bible in a raging voice, monotone or joyous voice all the way through; the message might sound different but it’s still the same message no matter how someone tries to change it or make it sound.

    Speaking your mind about what you believe to someone else is not an attack.

    And I am not saying you did these things above. You did apologise for however siding with those at EmergingAfrica, FutureChurch and DiscernamentalistMafia websites when they did these things to me and I accepted that when you said sorry for taking their side you meant it.

    So I am going to make this email public, because you said I can. Including my reply.

    Thank you Ryan for finally saying what you REALLY believe. You have spent many a comment dodging the question, agreeing, when you actually didn’t. I have not wavered, one minute agreeing and then disagreeing or ‘agreeing to disgaree’. You reject what we say, cool. Not our problem. Just as I reject what you say. Cool. Not your problem. And even though you reject what Nic Paton says and you reject what I say, I hope you can tell the difference between what he says and I say. If you have learnt anything from all of this I hope it’s that. At least it’s something for me to smile about as I worry about you.

    I believe that I and others have spoken the Gospel to you, given you ample information to research, given you ample to think about and quoted scripture accurately, so what I needed to do is done.

    You say you will let the Holy Spirit convince you. Then let Him convince you. I have told you many a time I am not here to convince you. If you are really seeking the truth you will find it. I pray you do.



    To everyone else,

    If you want to comment with more reading material as requested please post comments, scripture, links to relevant sources and thoughts. Other comments regarding this entire conversation will be allowed, too a point of course. Comments to Ryan asking him questions will be pointless as he won’t be replying, but comments about certain points he has made will be allowed. If Ryan does decided to comment he can.

    Remember that many are reading this blog who will benefit from the info posted here.

  7. Ryan

    PS, the issue is not about capitalism being biblical or not, we never said it was biblical, but as the world stands right now, it’s all we have – because what is coming Ryan is not what you think it’s going to be or could be as per your dreams and hopes (you have been indoctrinated with) for the future.

    There is NO MIDDLE ground right now – at this moment, at this point in time, in this so called wonderful little world of ours between what you want and what is going to happen. Why, because you actually have no choice in the matter as to what they are going to bring your way. What are you going to buy or sell when you OWN NOTHING to barter with?

    What the REAL issue is here is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as a whole being torn apart and thrown away. If one was to start with your very first comment (not on this article but another of the many you have commented on) it was to defend the Emergents and Amahoro and the interfaith movement.

    You might think you are making a giant leap here to side step your initial argument for coming here in the first place, but you can’t because everyone can read and it’s really not difficult to follow the ‘ecumenical dialogue’ throughout this entire blog. There is no middle ground to any of this, you either believe in Jesus Christ and follow Him or you follow the way the world is going.

    And no the ‘Christ’ of the Catholics is not Jesus Christ of scripture. So the answer the the question I asked you is: Catholicism is NOT Christian.

  8. Michael Anthony says:

    Ryan Peter,

    You will quickly come to realize that I, personally, am not ‘open-minded’. I can safely assume that the regular posters on this site are not open-minded either, neither do they have a proclivity to ‘discuss’ things for the sake of discussion. You will quickly find that they have a range of unwavering, unbending absolutes. ‘Rightly dividing the word of truth’ means coming to a definite conclusion, not another discussion. The finer details may be smoothed and readjusted over time but the absolutes remain.

    Discernment ministries started as a counter balance to the incredible momentum that apostasy has gained over recent years. You will generally find two camps of Christians (there are way more but for the sake of simplification); those that are in anticipation of Christ’s eminent return and those that are not. Those that are expecting his coming, as direct result, see the foretold apostasy of 2 Thessalonians that comes to smother the warning of our Lord’s return. Apostasy has come in such subtle forms that it will take pages to outline them.

    The same way that Israel missed the first coming or their Messiah – even with all the scriptures and prophecies with ‘to-the-day’ accuracy available to them – the church is now in danger of missing his return. Even though they are forewarned…

    Which means that the primary purpose of this site – from my vantage point – is to alert Christians to the encroaching apostasy; discernment type ministries are usually a minority within a minority.

    It is extremely painful to watch the body of Christ being led into seductions that suffocate the simplicity of the Gospel. Worst of all I personally can see the eschatological, prophetic pattern taking unmistakable shape in our world…and yet so many deny it(the death of the free market being one of them). (I personally am indebted to sound biblical scholars who have over the years pointed many things out to me, there is no way any single person can come up with a balanced worldview and sound biblical knowledge all by himself).
    Not to say that I personally know everything, not even close. On the contrary, I am acutely aware that if I was deceived before and I can easily be deceived again. Without the Holy Spirit guiding one into all Truth we are all helpless and rudderless. See this site as just another contribution to exposing the unbiblical and extra-biblical practices in the modern day church.

    Maybe you don’t realise but by outlining yourself as being the one more ‘honest and open, passionate and charitable’ and prepared to ‘discuss’ things you have put on your high stilt shoes. And in there you have ‘without compromising the truth’ for extra measure. Yet you are ‘asking questions’ (do you see a contradiction?). Not compromising the truth means you have already been fully persuaded of it.

    As concerning the free-market; this is Christian worldview fundamentals, not advanced Christianity. I have no burden of proof to prove anything to you nor am I responsible for defending my case any more than I have already done. You can draw your own conclusions, do your own research.

    What I am also fully persuaded of is that is the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding you into all truth you will arrive at the same worldview and the same realization of the perilous hour we are in, as do the the rest of us. Those two aspects open up a whole can of worms. The finer details may differ from person to person, that’s fine and perfectly Ok.

    I personally believe that things are going to get whackier and whackier in the modern day church – maybe then the true believers still stuck in some of these institutions will finally realise the times they are living in when it gets to such absurd levels.

    I did serve under a Pastor who every single week warned his church of the deception out there, in bone crunching detail. It was also one of the few churches that prayed for Israel from the pulpit. He preached with biblical (double-edged – law & gospel) accuracy. Expositional teaching, line by line, verse by verse – the whole counsel of God. Every member of that church had a very high degree of biblical depth of discernment, they had been well taught and discipled. Yet they were all encouraged to check things out for themselves.

    I miss that church…

    If every church was like that there would be no such thing as a discernment ministry. Unfortunately someone has to do the work that should actually be done from the pulpit.

  9. Michael Anthony says:

    Maybe I should reword a paragraph in my last post in case it comes out as arrogant.

    ‘If we all come to similar conclusions and the same biblical absolutes, the same Spirit is leading leading us. Either that or we are all (that see things the same way) are being deluded by the same source. But we cannot all be led of the same spirit and come to radically different conclusions.’

    Hmm, still not quite there – but you get the jist.

  10. Ryan Peter says:

    Hey guys,

    Just wanted to thank you guys for all your responses here 🙂

    And also for your email, Deborah. I do appreciate you guys taking the time.



  11. Ryan Peter says:

    Oh, and your email too Amanda. It really looks like some great reading and I really appreciate you sending me those pointers! 🙂 Ryan.

  12. Amanda says:

    Amen, Michael.


    Either Jesus Christ is Lord and your Savior or you can remain best buddies with the world.

    “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:34-37)

  13. cecilia says:

    so it’s time out Ryan? until you discover another topic….
    I echo Amanda’s last comment ….

    Michael, thanks 4 your last (long) post, it helped me 2 have a clearer understanding about my believes in God’s Word.

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