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‘Everything Must Change’ Back to Roman Catholicism

Emerging Africa roman catholicismThere is a conversation going on at the Emerging Africa website under the post Christian Piracy regarding my defence for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and my ongoing never to end ‘good fight’ for the TRUTH.  I made a comment there which was supposed to be a 10 liner and turned into like 5 pages.  If they post it they post it, otherwise I’ll just put it here.

** please note that I have added extra notes that were not included in the comment on Emerging Africa at the bottom of this article.

The comment revolves around clarifying a few issues, which I hope will put some persective on what is going on in their own Emerging movement.

—————-

Comment at Emerging Africa is as follows:

Hi people, yes it’s me your favourite person in the whole wide world :)

I have read this entire thread and I am quite impressed.  I just want to clarify a few things.  *Ok I have come back to type this little part in *stars here because this has turned into being one seriously long comment…sorry.  But then again I am sure there are books out there that are even longer that you might not complain about*

1)  Judging is not about a person’s life – we judge what they say that contradicts scripture.  I will never judge someone based on what they do in their life or the sin in their life, but I will say what the Word of God has to say about repentance, changing ones ways, being saved through Jesus Christ the Son of God.  For instance I do not agree that homosexuality is in any way right.  But I still love these people; it’s the sin that is wrong.  Before God’s eyes it’s wrong.  But through repentance and humbling ourselves before God through Jesus Christ we are forgiven.  But that does not mean you can continue living in perpetual sin, no it means willing wanting to change your ways and not sin anymore.  Again we can’t do this on our own and this is why we seek Jesus’ help.  We need Holy Spirit conviction.  Your own conscience is not going to cut you deeply regarding what the world thinks is morally correct or incorrect.  Only God can do this in your heart.

2)  The bible MUST be read literally, historically and in context and there is ALWAYS a spiritual context as well (this you won’t find being taught at universities) and it always will point us to repentance of sin.  That sin is the major core of the Bible and that God is a Holy God who does not tolerate disobedience (sin from those who refuse Him), but through His grace and love for those who want to change and believe in His Son Jesus Christ will be saved – again this can only happen if you humble yourself before GOD and repent and admit we are full of sin and don’t want to be that way.

I hate quoting this cliché because it annoys me:  ‘I am not perfect, just forgiven’ but right now at this point it really does ring true.  HOWEVER this is taken and twisted by most ‘Christians’ as being ‘I am a Christian because I believe in ‘a’ Jesus, I am only human, can do as I want, just as long as I an good to others, God won’t be angry with me, He loves me, I don’t believe he would punish anyone.’

Yes, I am sure your earthly father never once punished you for disobeying him – Now take this punishment to a level unheard of – FOR GOD IS GOD and IF HE SAYS He will punish us, He will.  HE BRUISED JESUS AND IT PLEASED HIM.  I won’t argue with Him on this.  You can if you want.  We all love to appease our consciences and make excuses.  The fact of the matter no matter how one tries to change scripture it will remain the same.  People can try deconstructing it till the cows come home, it won’t change what God said.

3)  I really DO understand the Emergent ‘conversation’. No really, I do. And there are many things within the Emerging… let’s call it a ‘movement’ that are not one bit biblical.   I am going to say this and you can use it against me, I really don’t care but I came from a serious occult background and Jesus Christ (the biblical one) saved me from this nightmare.  There are subtle and sometimes blatant occult ideas, teachings and practices with the Emergent church.  For some unknown reason people seem to be deceived by the idea that in order for something to be occult it must be dark and dreary and look evil.  Well no, Satan comes as an angel of Light.  It does not have to be all black to be satanic.  Wiccans will argue that they are not Satanists for they do ‘good’ with their magic, Satanist will argue that Wiccans are Christian because they do good with their magic.  Do you see the downright ridiculousness of this?  If not, try.   But then things have been so contorted that now when it is presented to us all black and dreary everyone thinks there is nothing wrong with it.  I just want to cry sometimes.  You don’t know what you are doing.  I do, because I have been there.  But don’t take my word for it.  Go to JESUS CHRIST – the real one and ask him.

Again you know your heart!  You know if you are completely happy to wallow around in the shadows and take baby steps further and further into darkness.  Or come to Jesus Christ and repent because you know it’s wrong and want to get out of this hell hole you are digging yourself deeper and deeper into.

4)  The root of the emerging church is Roman Catholic and disagree as you may but the Eucharistic Christ of Catholicism is not the Jesus Christ that walked this earth and gave His life as a sacrifice for those WHO BELIEVE in Him.  In other words, just because someone has a picture of Jesus or Him on a cross does not mean it’s actually Jesus Christ.  Many spirits comes around with the name of Jesus, many strange beliefs use Jesus as their focal point, but it’s NOT  the REAL Jesus Christ who is the Word of God made flesh (1 John 4).  If you deconstruct scripture (sorry Roger, have to use your ‘deconstruct’ word here – not writing about you) you ARE under NO UNCERTAIN TERMS deconstructing Jesus Christ, you are breaking Him down and placing Him on a human level which He is NOT.  He is God.

5)  People do not understand who God really is.  When you realise who GOD really is and even though He loves the world and its little people (that HE CREATED) so much that He would sacrifice Himself for us – does not give us license at all to disobey Him.  What makes us think we are that special?  Because the world really can’t handle the fact that they are weak, quite pathetic, useless and powerless without that ‘crutch’ called Jesus Christ.  How much power do you think you can obtain via spiritual rituals that will make you in any way special or even 1mm closer to being like Jesus Christ?  How much do we understand what ‘power’ really is in relation to God’s power to wipe us out in less than a blink of an eye.   No we actually have no clue.  What we think is great is miniscule and completely null and void of anything special compared to what God can do and will do to those who think they know better.

6)  Believing in Jesus Christ and not changing your sinful ways means absolutely nothing.  There is a big misconception that if a Muslim believes in Jesus and continues being Muslim that they are now part of the body of Christ.  No.  End of Story. This leads me to my next point…

7)  Culture and Religion are two different things.  I am going to use a ridiculous example:  A tribe of indigenous people hear the Word of God and become saved.  They continue to track animals, live in huts and continue with how they do normal daily life.  They will however NOT want to sin and will break their Idols, stop feasts that were dedicated to their gods, and cease to believe in the spirits that spoke LIES to them in the first place.  That is the difference.  The ‘continued’ notion that western people force people to change their cultures and dress like westerners when they become Christian is just ludicrous.  I have no idea where this is even in scripture.  It’s a man made lie.  Just because a Christian movement (who were wrong) tried to do this does not mean one can now trample on Christianity as a whole and start scratching out verses in the Bible.

8)  I am not Calvinist, Protestant, or any other name.  Truth has been shattered through history across many different Christian doctrines.  Does this mean Calvinists are wrong?  Nope.  But there are some things within this movement/doctrine that are seriously problematic and have spawned breakaway movements (people who chose to follow the error and take it further).  Am I full on cessationist?  No.  I believe in signs and wonders but NOT the way Word of Faith teaches it (this Christian movement is riddled with some serious occult teaching).  Do I despise prophecy?  No, because prophecy is the Word of God.   I am not a fundamentalist either.  But you can call me this if you wish.

I am a born again Christian who wants to have the best relationship (not religion), but relationship with God I can have through His Son Jesus Christ (the real one, not the Jesus presented to us in all these new movements that everyone seems to just be falling over left right and centre – Jesus said that true Christians will be hated for His name sake)  – AGAIN this is twisted to ‘oh if we are being hated or persecuted then that makes us true Christians or on the right path’ – rubbish. Millions of unbelievers have been murdered and persecuted for their beliefs by other non-Christian religions throughout history, does that make them saved, and does this make them right in any way?  No.  Will there ever be peace?  No.  For this world is sinful.  And all this peace talk is going to whether you like it or not end up in a place where you thought was not possible.

9)  I find it highly unbelievably past the point of ridiculous that Christians who hold onto scripture, protecting orthodox Christianity that Jesus Christ taught and specifically TOLD and COMMANDED us to spread are now ‘bad, bad, bad people full of hate who want nothing but to harm others, to the point of being compared to those who tortured and murdered Christians during Inquisitions.’  Again here we have people calling themselves Christian (Rome) murdering (sinning, 10 commandment disobeying) people who refuse to believe in what they believe.  I am sorry, but where in the word of God does Jesus tell any of His disciples to harm anyone let alone murder anyone who did not want to listen to them?  Nowhere.  So what on earth makes anyone think that a GENUINE Christian would do such a thing?  Well, common logic would (you don’t need a degree to figure this out) carve it into stone that they were NOT Christian.  And to make sure you were thinking properly and not completely of your mind, you would check scripture and low and behold the brain that God gave you to reason is on the right track.  Moving right along…

10)  You cannot incorporate occult teaching into the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Once you do this it is NO longer the gospel anymore.  Simple.  It’s like making pure apple juice – once you put in grape juice it’s no longer pure apple juice.  Great…  I am happy we understand this.

11)  How do you know if you are following teachings that are unsavory and occult, well as much as anyone would want to deny this, you know if you are following something that is wrong and ungodly;  EVERYONE right around the world knows in their hearts what they are really up to.  Also there is so much info out there now-a-days on what is occult that if someone professes to be a spiritualist or Tolle follower and you find your ‘Christian’ friends are following the same then, well… yes… there is something horribly wrong –especially when they say they are not like really Christian, kind of, sort of go to church (see paragraph 14 were I speak about church so you don’t misunderstand me on this issue) and prefer to just do and believe in what seems right.  And yes you need to judge what they are doing – God commands we test ALL things in order that we are not led astray.  We are all held accountable for our own thoughts and deeds, we can’t blame anyone else for what goes on in our hearts and the things we choose to follow instead of obeying God and HIS WORD.

12)  This is a general post; any reference to ‘you’ is to everyone (who wants to listen).  Otherwise don’t listen.  I care enough to speak the truth and stand up and be hated and called names.  And no this is not the woe is me persecution speech.  This is where the ‘I don’t care’ what you think comes into the picture.  Almost lastly…

13)  Test everything, even this thing called ‘love’ that mankind so easily showers on everyone nowadays but deep down you know if you really have love in your heart.  And until you learn to love Jesus Christ the Son of God first and be saved hence you change your ways and stop offending God through the sin in your life, don’t expect to even think you can help others spiritually when you yourself have no clue what humbleness and serving God means.  Seek first the Kingdom of God and all righteousness will be added unto you.  And notice I am not going to literally explain this verse.  This means, seek God first, through His Son Jesus Christ (Jesus is the Kingdom of God), be saved, repent, and you will be forgiven and righteousness will be given to you through getting on your knees before God and letting Him know that you will never be perfect, you make no excuses for yourself, and you are a permanent sinner who wants to ask for forgiveness permanently.  Get this part right, I beg of you.  Then you will know what Christ like love is.  Jesus Christ was born sinless, walked this earth sinless and died sinless – to be the perfect sacrifice.  We will NEVER ever, ever, ever be Him for again…HE IS GOD.

Helping people and building communities and trying to build your Kingdom on earth?  Nah man… you miss the plot completely.  Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of God and when you are save His Holy Spirit comes to bide in you.  If you are trying to build your kingdom on the outside…well…there be a problem.  And NO, this does not mean because you have the Holy Spirit in you, you now actually start becoming like Christ.   Untwist this blasphemous idea that we can do what He did.

14)  To be held to a membership of a church or community is a load of brainwashed nonsense.  We are told to fellowship, yes, indeed, but NOT the way we have been taught.  We are all accountable first to GOD and then to each other for speaking the TRUTH.  To have one man and a panel of board members dictate the menu for the month when the Bible says that the Bible is GOOD ENOUGH to teach you all by your little lonesome is just showing us the control organized Christianity holds over us.  And where does this notion stem from?  Rome.   If you don’t belong to the Mother Church then you are not catholic… sound familiar?  And here the EC is following after catholic strongholds while fighting against organized religion.

So here you are trying to break down Christianity for its holds and bars, trying to create new holds and bars.  Does this mean we can’t ask other GENUINE Christians for help?  Just because God says the Bible His Word is good enough for teaching, rebuking etc does not mean we become geniuses overnight – this is why we are still told to fellowship BUT with Genuinely saved Christians.  Not just any person who comes around and calls themselves Christian and brings with them a basket of leaven.  And it makes no difference how nice you are to them they just refuse to change their ways.  So, when we don’t want them around not we are being hateful.  My word.  What a disaster.  But hey if you feel you want to hang with person who you can clearly see are not good after you told them what they were doing was not good, then great, that’s your problem to deal with in the end for not listen to GOD’s GREAT WISDOM on the matter – where He COMMANDS that you remove these people from amongst yourselves.  He was not being nasty; He is telling you they are going to cause division and discourse so tell them to go away.

15) The ‘new’ church feels that they are solely responsible for changing a person’s heart by keeping them within their community in the hope that one day they will change.   Have you never come across people who will do and say anything just to get a bowl of ‘free’ food? (And this has got nothing to do with starving people, I am talking about people in general), or let’s change it to ‘…will do anything to get to have their own community’. But in their hearts they are wondering how and when they will get their chance to steal your wallet and if they just happen to stab you in the process, well then to bad so sad.

WE DO NOT SAVE PEOPLE.  GOD SAVES PEOPLE.  We are told to preach the truth, the gospel of Jesus Christ, that’s it.  And don’t come with silly questions and say, ‘oh but are you saying we are not supposed to help people’.  Whatever…you know what I mean; you just choose to not want to pay attention.

No matter how you look at it, there will always be someone at the top of the food chain.  This will never change.  Right now the entire world wants to be on top.  So how do we fix this problem?  Oh, well…just make everyone equal and the ‘same’ and one global community of smurfs.  Problem is, there will always be a leader.   I thought it was hysterical listening to a Transformation ‘expert’ in his field talking about changing the world, and how we are all one and the same.  He stands on the stage showing everyone how special he is and at the same time tells the audience that he is not anything great, and then name drops and rattles off his copious amount of degrees.  Then during the same seminar shows a hierarchy of how man can transcend, as if you are a level 0 then you are stupid but wait till you get to the top.  Ag whatever.   Does anyone actually really listen to what they are being told?  All becoming mindless, bible-less do good-ers.  And the more mindless one becomes the more apparently Christian you are.

16)  Ok, I just realised how long this is…sorry.  You all know I get carried away when I start.  There is no point placing a statement of faith on a website or church door because again – it means nothing.  Look at Rhema Church’s statement of faith.  It looks great.  Then you get to the bottom and there is one paragraph what makes what they said previously null and void.  Just toss it out the window – cos that’s their statements of faith is worth.   Speaking like a Christian does not make one a Christian.

17)  Lastly, I am a woman, but men are the head.  My husband is who looks after me.  But you know how it turned out to be that women are the ones having to take a stand?  Because of mankind’s sin, women wanted to be liberated, so they got it.  They wanted high positions, so they got it.  But there’s not enough space for the world to be at the top, so someone had to be removed.  Well, there are only 2 genders, so men it must be, they need to go, get out of that ‘head of the home’ position.

The world creates its own problems through disobedience to God’s Word and sinning and then we complain when things don’t work out they way we thought it would.  No, you kidding?  It goes back to us being the ‘smart’ ones.  The way the world now and for the last 6000 years is NOT the way it was supposed to be.  But because of OUR SIN it has turn out to be this way and it’s getting worse and worse and it won’t stop.  Now we have women taking a stand cos all the men are at a mighty men conference or Ama’horror’ being taught a load of hogwash to bring home to their families.

Nowhere in the bible does God say that a women needs to summit to false teaching.  How doff do you think we are?  That’s certainly not a husband’s love for his wife and family.  That is certainly not what God intended, but mankind wanted to know good from evil – and now no one can distinguish good from evil.  And then when we take a stand we are told to keep quiet.  But at the same time you promote that we are were in the 21st century where ‘everything must change’.  Hmmm…

18)  Ok…I am finished.  You may now attack me ferociously with words.   Physical sticks and stones I do have a problem with.

If you have any questions, please just re-read what I wrote.  Please.

EAoE.   Errors and omissions excepted.

—–

Extra stuff that I did not write on the comment at Emerging Africa:

Roman Catholicism = the first ever successful religiously communistic regime. They ruled with Iron teeth for hundreds of years, in fact they have been around even when Jesus Christ the Son of God walked the earth.   And they have already set themselves up to do it again. This time the entire world WILL be under their authoritarian rule.   ALL this is prophecy being fulfilled as written in the Bible.   Those who want to see the TRUTH will see it, those who don’t because they do not love the truth and the REAL Jesus Christ of scripture will follow blindly after this ungodly religion.

—–

To those who have cooked their gooses on this site, this article does not mean you can come back and comment.  You can converse till your hearts content over at Emerging Africa where all beliefs are welcome and lead to one god.  It is amply clear as to what we believe here, if you don’t get it after 121 articles I have posted on this site so far, then well… I have no idea what more to say to clear up your confusion.

You know it’s bad when you are following Emergent ideas, but don’t want to be called Emerging because being labeled Emerging is bad but insist that Emerging dialogue is good.  Everything must change but stay the same.  We need to move forward by going backward.  We need to breakdown religious Christianity by moving to another religion that isn’t a religion but a combination of all faiths with one Christ who is not Jesus but ‘something’ else.

We all need to transcend and move vertically up the spiritual ladder in order to all become equal, because equality is what it’s all about – but if you don’t want to, that’s ok you just won’t be equal.  The body of Christ is now as per the new Christian world view a community of believers instead who all believe in something ‘Jesus’ orientated but when you speak to them about Jesus Christ they get upset and tell you to keep quiet.

You want to be unbound by the Bible and at the same time quote scripture to prove your point that the Bible is rather useless.  You insist something is not New Age or occult when you have no idea what New Age or occult means.   Darkness is light, light is darkness.  Good is evil, evil is good and telling something the truth is called hate.

The blind lead the blind, you walk into walls and you all stare at each other, too scared to say anything.  You fear the reprisal of disagreeing with all these ‘oh you are so great’ people because you have seen what they do to others who don’t want to agree.

Instead of thinking with your brain you need to think using your emotions and senses instead – forgetting that it’s your brain that allows you to think in the first place.  If someone seems like a nice person, your feelings are what now determines if someone is really a nice person or not. The less sense you make the more intelligent you become.

So the wall now becomes your deep inner struggle to break on through to the other side, instead of just turning around and saying to Jesus Christ you are wrong, and repent, tell him you are sorry.  We all land in deception.  Anyone who says they cannot be deceived already are deceived.  At the end of the day it’s your choice.  I made my decision a while back on who I would choose to serve and that would be Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour.  I had to hit rock bottom first.  I warn you because I don’t want you to land up where I did through sheer stupidity and disobedience to God because I thought I was smarter than Him.  Well did I only come of second best.   But now I am FIRST FOR HIM.

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73 comments to ‘Everything Must Change’ Back to Roman Catholicism

  • DTW, This is truly a Holy Spirit inspired article. I do not see how anyone who is seeking the TRUTH, cannot hear the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their minds and thoughts while reading this. And this, also applies to the people who are caught up in false doctrines.

  • Discerning the World

    Thank you Jemfishie. I hope there are some people out there who do listen. But unfortunately in this day and age, there won’t be many.

    I like your Fishie picture hehe.

  • Amanda

    Michael Anthony

    Well said. “Christians are just not doing the right thing. Let us tell you how”. And then they come up with these directives. What do you think of that video, Michael?

    And here is plenty more.

    You can see Ron Martoia redefine the Gospel right in front of your eyes and Mynhardt van Pletsen from Stephan Joubert’s echurch drinks it in like water.

  • Michael Anthony

    People ultimately get the change the want. People ultimately get the leaders they deserve.

    Change is code word for socialism.

    Did you know that a very well know socialist tactic commonly used to attack conservatives is too take the very values/principles/statutes those conservatives live by accuse them of not keeping to the very rules they preach. This supposedly show the system to be imperfect and needing change. (sound familiar?)

    This is not much different to satan’s accusations of the brethren – if they are sinless (well… righteous) ala Job the accusation then becomes one of motive (ie Job only remains righteous and faithful only because God blessed him).
    The strategy has not changed; the emergent church accuses the established system of being corrupt and antiquated. The blind spot this creates is that they refuse to see that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9). The problem is not with God’s ordinances, it is with wicked men in a cloak of religion.
    There is nothing wrong with the established ordinances of God, the message of salvation is unchanging. Heaven and earth will pass away by his word remains. We don’t need new ways of doing things, we need to be anchored to the ways of old for God is never changing.

    In short – change in the context of established Christianity equals rebellion against God.

    At least we know that the poverty of truth will be equally distributed.

  • Discerning the World

    >> change in the context of established Christianity equals rebellion against God.

    Exactly.

    And tooo true. There was nothing wrong with God’s ordinances because if it were it would make God look foolish (Which is what these cloaked wolves in sheeps clothing are in effect saying as well)

    Ag, I just wanna pull my hat over my head and climb under the chair and hide. Oh wait, I wont have a chair to hide under once it’s been equally distributed.

  • Discerning the World

    A comment from Roger made a EmergingAfrica

    Wed, 2009-10-21 01:05 — Roger Saner ATttttaaaaack!

    Right, time to attack Deborah! Muahahaaa!!!

    Ok, just kidding :p Thanks for commenting here, Deborah – sorry it took a while for your comment to be approved, but hey, it was :) Thank you too for the tone in which your comment was written. For the first time that I can remember, you started off your comment with a positive statement (which helps me believe that you’re listening, and helps me want to listen what you have to say).

    The way you present your argument here and the tone in which it comes across gives me hope that you’re not just some angry lunatic who hates everyone, but you’re someone who has something valid to say. Let me say that again: because of the way you’ve chosen to write in the past (ignoring the main point of the other person’s argument, mocking them, refusing to listen, and using vitriol) it’s led me to believe that you don’t have much to say (ya know, the clanging gong thing), but because of the way you write here, I find myself considering your words more carefully. If you’d like to make genuine inroads into the emerging church conversation (i.e. engaging with emergents on their own terms and helping them to see where they are misguided) you’ll have much more success this way than in standing outside of the conversation throwing in rocks.

    You say that you genuinely understand the emerging church conversation – for the first time I’m starting to suspect that perhaps you do.

    So I find myself genuinely surprised that I’m reading a comment by DTW and I can finally feel like I know where you’re coming from. As always, you’ve included your trademark sense of humour :)

    I don’t have any specific responses to make to things which you’ve said here (for now) – just a “Thank-you”. I believe that respectful conversation is the best way to help others grow, and I appreciate the effort you’re making in this regard.

  • Discerning the World

    My reply:

    Wed, 2009-10-21 09:06 — Discerning the World (Deborah)

    2 cents is all I can afford right now due to man-made Recession

    Roger Rabbit, I have always been nice to start with (find one comment (except for Nic and Steve)) where I started the conversation negatively). This all started with the Ama’horror’ article and you all took major offense to what I said; but not once said what you took offence too, you just basically continued to insinuate that I as unintelligent and lacked education and have no clue. Iggy asked god to blind me (god in lowercase) and some other guy cursed me that cancer spreads through my veins. Lovely. Remind me to stay far away from them.

    Then there was that someone who lied so much that I was almost on the verge of flying to his home town and slapping him over the head for being downright silly and commenting with my name using his other duke divinity school email address (lest I mention the EXACT same IP address using his name and then my name) oh boy. But I kept quiet…and watched him. Lucky for him, Duke Divinity school Deans and Administrators etc (yes all of them – I spoke too via email apologised on their students behalf. I was nice enough to not mention his name because I cared enough to not want him kicked out for bringing the school into disrepute.

    You keep throwing this ‘negativity’ thing back at me when some of you said things and did things that were worse. (dtw3 for instance). Not once have you apologised or shown any kind of sorry for siding with ‘nasty’ people. But hey, that is not what this is about. I don’t care if they say sorry or not. Millions of people right now are saying sorry and forgiving one another and still in their hearts don’t ‘reallyyyyy’ mean it – all the other person has to go on is the other’s puff red eyes and a great performance.

    It’s about me speaking the truth and people taking offense to WHAT I said, NOT how I said it. There were some however that chose to take what I said and not be nice back because they were defending their ‘friends’ without reading everything from the beginning. I can clearly see when someone is progressing in their comments towards just plain arguing to disagree – the problem with this is I am not going to agree either, but it’s my blog and I never asked them to come and argue with me.

    And disagreeing with someone in a harsh tone is not being nasty especially when it’s clear from the start as to what the person believes and nothing I say in any tone is going to make them see. Only God can do this, and like I said above, EVERYONE knows if God is speaking to them but they just out right have rejected what He said because they chose the wide path that contains many paths leading to something that they think is god. As long as it makes them feel positive then it must be ok. Well… allll righty then, if you insist.

    Anyhow, that’s my last 2 cents on this issue. Having said that I will continue to ‘sound’ mean and nasty to most because that is what they want to think. And this problem is not going to go away. In fact it’s only going to get worse for me and others out there who love Jesus Christ (the real) one as the world progresses further into lies and deception and the attacks get worse against the Gospel. (Notice I said the attacks against the Gospel – we little people who stand up for Jesus Christ will get branded and broken down because we won’t change out thinking)

    Righty I have things to do, places to see, and lands to conquer.

    Note, your goose is still cooked :)

  • Hi Michael Anthony,

    Just out of interest (given your comment on socialism) what is your view on democracy / capitalism (the other side of the scale)? I tend to see there are some tremendous evils in capitalism as well.

  • Michael Anthony

    Amanda,

    I watched about 8 minutes of this pseudo spiritual babble.

    To me ‘Rethink’ equals ‘Did God really say?’ Where there was certainty now there is doubt.

    Genesis 3 (King James Version)
    4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    He said something very startling on that video clip – ‘if you want to be holy you have to transcend this world…’ then he talks about ‘Portals to the divine’

    Sounds like ascending to a ‘higher’ spirituality…

    isaiah 14:13
    For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: (talking of Lucifer)

    This is not biblical sanctification.

    He keeps using the word ‘awareness’ and referring to ‘knowledge’. It is has if you have to find this new way of acquiring it (The bible says distinctly that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, the reformers fought for the sufficiency of scripture, you acquire knowledge by studying the bible).

    Genesis 3 (King James Version)

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Same lies, repacked into modern garb by a bespectacled wolf. It is a hybrid of works salvation, mysticism, new age garb, Hagel’s philosophies. These guys honestly believe their ‘eyes are being opened’ when in fact they are being blinded to the truth.

    (video quote) ‘We are meant to be deeply connected with the earth and our maker’. I mean, as if it’s not bad enough now we have pantheism to further confuse the clarity of the Gospel. We have no connection to God if we abide in sin, full stop. The forgiveness of sin is found only in the sufficiency of the price paid on Calvary. We don’t do nice social things to become more ‘connected’ with God.

    The video is a Crossless, Christless, meaningless rambling.

    To be honest you need an emergent dictionary to even begin to interpret what any of this means. These guys come up with terms and sentences that make absolutely no sense.

    In summary – there is nothing new under the sun.

    2 Corinthians 11:3
    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

  • Amanda

    Michael Anthony

    Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and highlighting the problems. I know it is a little hard to watch, but I did not want to discourage you ahead of time. Sorry about that.

    Mmmm. It is worse than I thought. This “pseudo spiritual babble” is what Dr. Stephan Joubert is bringing into the DRC. When Mr. Sarel van der Merwe pointed it out, he was attacked by Prof. Nelus Niemandt, assessor of the Dutch Reformed Church General Synod, who labeled his “wild statements” as “lies, loveless and libel”. Seems to me that post-modern thinking is an oxymoron.

    Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
    (Isaiah 5:20)

  • Discerning the World

    My response to Graeme McKibbin

    Subject: Ok, I am down to 0.5 cents

    Re-read what I said.

    Btw, I would take that article you have on your site off where you mention that if certain animals are homosexual then that means it’s ok for humans to be as well. If you want to keep the article up, great, but then I think tons of people would like an article on: “If certain animals eat other animals flesh for food then humans can eat eachother too.”

    Ok, I am down to 0.5 cents, I really need this money for something more important.

    ————————————–

    I realised I made an error and commented again:

    Subject: Finally Penniless

    Sorrrrryyyyy Graeme McKibbin I thought you were Graeme Codrington from futurechurch. But again, please re-read my comment, and when finished, again :)

    As for Rogers friend Graeme Codrington who wrote the article: Homosexuality is natural: I would still write that article as it would be a really good read.

    Ok now I have no more money.

  • Pete Mc

    My emergent EX-Pastor recently returned from S.A where he met with others of the “Apostolic leadership network”
    Namely:Duane White, Jack Grobleski, Dave Smith and Francois van Niekerk. Never heard of em?

    Last year he hosted visiting speaker Margaret Stunt.
    She is over your way now, joining Rhema from Londons Hillsong Church.

    I can honestly say that no other “Christian” Minister has made me want to duck down and hide under the seat.
    Even praying to God with the “Cornuto” hand sign.
    Intentional or not it kinda displays the source of power.

    God bless
    Pete

  • Discerning the World

    Oh my golly golly gosh…

    Those are dem people from Hatfield Christian Church in Pretoria (Duane White, Francois van Niekerk and Dave Smith), Jack Groblewski is from Grace Network in the USA who appeared at Hatfield Church on a conference)

    Oh sigh… And when I told everyone last year that Wof, NAR and Emergent were the same thing they said, ‘nooooo, never’. So everyone jumped on the Emergent’s because of their downright blatant occult teaching and stopped looking at the WoF and NAR because the Emergent’s were a greater threat at the time. Thing is they are all the same; just preach the message differently to confuse everyone.

    So they are all merging together slowly but surely. One leans more towards poverty, the other one leans towards prosperity. Both preach false teaching and both will make you bankrupt spiritually and financially.

  • Discerning the World

    A comment made by Graeme McKibbin in Emerging Africa regarding my comment/post above:

    Wed, 2009-10-21 17:12 — Graeme McKibbin

    A few things

    >> 2) The bible MUST be read literally, historically and in context
    Although this sounds like a great idea, on what basis can you make such a claim? (Incidentally, I’m not disagreeing with you here, but I’d like to know what grounds we have for establishing this as the departure point of our hermeneutics).

    >> 4) The root of the emerging church is Roman Catholic
    Really? In what way(s)? Is it connected to the Vatican at all?

    >> 7) Culture and Religion are two different things
    True, but it gets a bit trickier in an African context where culture and religion is so intricately intertwined!

    >> 13) Test everything, even this thing called ‘love’ that mankind so easily showers on everyone nowadays ..
    I agree with this – the definition of love is crucial, as love can be used to justify various kinds of acts. Some think the most loving thing they can do is let people make their own choices about everything (even if that means they fall off the cliff), whereas others think it most loving to correct them “for their own good”, which can end up being seen as judgmental. Jesus said the greatest act of love is to lay down one’s life for another. He also said to love God (first), and then our neighbour, as ourselves.

    >> 15) The ‘new’ church feels that they are solely responsible for changing a person’s heart by keeping them
    within their community in the hope that one day they will change. Have you never come across people who will do and say anything just to get a bowl of ‘free’ food?

    Did Jesus not talk about the goats and sheep growing together until the harvest?

    >> 16) Look at Rhema Church’s statement of faith. It looks great. Then you get to the bottom…
    Out of interest, what is in that last paragraph that invalidates Rhema’s statement of faith? (I’ve never read it).

    >> 1) Judging is not about a person’s life – we judge what they say that contradicts scripture. I will never judge someone based on what they do in their life or the sin in their life
    >> 6) Believing in Jesus Christ and not changing your sinful ways means absolutely nothing.

    Do you not see a slight contradiction in this?

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Why are you asking such a question knowing fully well that we live in a sinful world and that anything man made will never be good?

    What would you like to see instead of the evils of capitalism and the evils of socialism? What’s inbetween that? A “Kingdgom of God” set up by men run by a Christ?

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan Peter,

    Could you outline the ‘evils’ you see in capitalism – directly imputed because of the system itself and not because of man’s wickedness?

    It would not take much to see that liberal Christianity (as in the mould that began to appear in the early 20th century) and version 2.0 with some of the same features (as Chris Roseborough puts it) which is found in the modern day liberal church & emergent church leans very heavily towards the left. That is where you find words like communitarianism etc in their language – all borrowed from the left and reworded.

    Maybe you should study things or topics such as Saul Alinsky, Alice Bailey, Karl Marx, the Clowen-Piven strategy, Hegel’s philosophies and find out what is really feeding some of liberal Christianity’s ideas. You will be shocked. When ‘Sustainable Development’ is as much a doctrine in the emergent church as it is in the globalist benches you should take note.

    Then have a further look at Fabian Socialism. Then have a look at the similarities between the postmodernists and the emergent church, you cannot tell them apart. What is really shocking is how much humanism is entangled here as well. And feminism, and cultural Marxism. Etc. I could go on…

    In further summary there have been two tracks to globalism for many years-political and spiritual. Now the two tracks are becoming one as politicians use religion to promote globalism and religious leaders become partners with politicians and promote the United Nations (or a globalist unity under one banner).

    You connecting the dots yet?

    From Brannon House —

    The three worldviews that are merging into a dominant new worldview embraced on a global scale include evolutionary humanism, Hindu pantheism, and occultism has merged to create a worldview I call One-World Spirituality. The theology of this worldview is pantheism; the philosophy is pagan spirituality; the biology is Darwinian evolution; the economic system is socialism, the politics is globalism, and the activism of this worldview is centered on radical environmentalism and political correctness (cultural Marxism). The goals of this One-World Spirituality are just what we’ve outlined before: a one-world government, one-world religion, and one-world economic system.

    The social implications of pagan spirituality are stunning. If we are all one, no individual or nation should be better or worse off than anyone else, and thus the only acceptable economic worldview is socialism, the attempt to equalize the distribution of wealth.

    ….

    My problem is against socialism, nowhere did I defend Capitalism or even mention it, nor did I use the word democracy. I believe in a country’s sovereignty and its ability to rule it as an autonomy whether it be a republic or otherwise.

    You mentioned ‘tremendous evils’ in Capitalism. Now that word ‘tremendous’ followed by evils means that it is XXX-Large evil. Explain please. And don’t waste my time with nonsense – stay anchored to the topic as well as these XXX claims of yours with diverting. Can you do that?

  • Hey DTW,

    I agree with you. I was just curious to hear Michael Anthony’s response at the time.

    There are a lot of Christians that are against socialism because they are actually just pro-capitalist. There are many people that call themselves ‘conservative’ and are heavily pro-capitalist.

    Michael Anthony talking about ‘conservatives’ made me curious as to his answer to the question.

    Personally I’m neither heavily pro this or pro that when it comes to politics. I do think that people should have ‘rights’, though, which makes me lean towards democracy – but even that can go pretty extreme and is going rather extreme within democracy at the moment (we are in a fallen world, after all).

    GK Chesterton was into distributism which I discovered recently and found interesting, but every ‘system’ has deep flaws which – as you say – are subject to the reality of our fallen world.

    I am all for leaders being responsible and accountable, though, and since we are the ‘salt of the world’ we ought to at least make things uncomfortable for leaders who want to jump on board any type of gravy train (we ought to say something).

    If anything I think I’d prefer a monarchy – with a good and perfect King. So I’m waiting for Jesus to come back :)

  • Hi Michael

    “Could you outline the ‘evils’ you see in capitalism – directly imputed because of the system itself and not because of man’s wickedness?”

    No.

    Capitalism can lead to unfair distribution of wealth, excessive materialism (a love of money), monopolies, unfair trade, exploitation, major class gaps, a glorifying of the individual, a lack of responsibility to the community / others, humanism, and such things.

    There are also different forms of capitalism, of course.

    These are the results because of man’s wickedness.

    Likewise, on paper socialism looks great (an ideal) but falls short because of man’s wickedness. And many of its failings are very similar to what we see in capitalism anyway – and in many other systems – because the problem is obviously with man.

    George Orwell’s Animal Farm comes to mind.

    Would something OT like a Jubilee work in capitalism? Just something to think about. I mention it because it shows something of God’s heart (mercy for people in debt) that capitalism doesn’t make much space for.

    I doubt that God’s plan is capitalism when the new heavens and new earth are here. Whether capitalism is the lesser of two evils is hard to say, since a lot depends on how it (or socialism) is controlled.

    But to defend capitalism as if it’s God’s own manifesto for government is really all I’m digging at. Many ‘conservatives’ tend to treat it that way – in fact, Brannon Howse is one such individual who seems, from the outset, to treat it that way.

  • Hi Michael,

    Let me add another one for capitalism’s evils – the prosperity gospel.

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan Peter,

    Just in case you are interested I consider myself a Fundamentalist in the original definition. Therefore I would fall under the conservative bracket.

    (Fundamentalism was created to reaffirm orthodox Protestant Christianity and to defend it against the challenges of liberal theology, http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/fundamen.htm)

    That means I am pro free market, which I believe is the biblical guideline.

    Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.

    (quote) There are a lot of Christians that are against socialism because they are actually just pro-capitalist.(end of quote)

    Could you clarify this statement? I personally have studied socialism in depth, are you implying that there are Christians that don’t actually understand worldviews when it comes to this sort of thing? Well, if so then you have indicted yourself because you stated you are neither pro this or that. Neutrality is not a worldview; the bible is filled with absolutes. You may not agree with any political candidate but you have to define what is truth and biblical guideline for ie civil governance or Christian worldviews. (It’s in the bible, really!)

    Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.

    Give me one instance of a democracy/capitalist country that has attacked without provocation any other country in the last 200 years. (Let me give you a hint – there aren’t any…) I can tell you of countless instances of Fascist, Totalitarian and Socialist countries that have.

    Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.

    And again in case you missed it –

    Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Prosperity Gospel is not a result of capitalism or part of capitalism for that matter. False teaching is a result of a sinful world and a result of wicked men who hate the Word of God. Greed as a whole is because of men’s sinful nature.

    One can’t sit and debate the negatives and positives of capitalism without coming up with a solution to the problem – in the new world orders case; one currency, with one inflation rate run by one government where everyone will be equal – except those those at the top of the hierarchy.

    There is only one evil and that is sin. The Bible does not ask us to contemplate the meanings of life and why the world is so wretched because the answer is simple: if man followed God’s Word from day one we would not be in this situation.

  • Hi Michael,

    Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.

    I said there were ‘tremendous evils in capitalism’, this means the system – like all systems – is a mix of good and bad.

    My answer (above) said, to paraphrase, that I can’t produce an answer to the evils in capitalism taking man’s wickedness out of the equation because the problems are in fact, at the bottom line, man’s wickedness.

    I produced a list of problems that capitalism can cause because of man’s wickedness. I didn’t list the problems of capitalism outside this framework, and that is why I haven’t answered your question, nor can I because we don’t live in an ideal world.

    I answered your first question of “Could you outline the ‘evils’ you see in capitalism – directly imputed because of the system itself and not because of man’s wickedness?” with No.

    That was a nice way of saying “I am not entering that debate with you” as I can’t meet your prerequisites and therefore we have nothing to debate.

    Secondly, my argument from the outset was not going to be about how bad capitalism is – my main beef is that it is treated as some sort of holy cow by conservatives.

    Could you clarify this statement? I personally have studied socialism in depth, are you implying that there are Christians that don’t actually understand worldviews when it comes to this sort of thing? Well, if so then you have indicted yourself because you stated you are neither pro this or that. Neutrality is not a worldview; the bible is filled with absolutes. You may not agree with any political candidate but you have to define what is truth and biblical guideline for ie civil governance or Christian worldviews. (It’s in the bible, really!)

    Most Christians don’t know much about economical systems and the subtleties in politics. Do you think they should? Not everyone is highly educated nor has the opportunity to be educated in these matters. Is that wrong?

    Personally, I know very little about how economics ultimately work, I am simply speaking as a layman.

    Give me one instance of a democracy/capitalist country that has attacked without provocation any other country in the last 200 years.

    I can tell you of countless instances of Fascist, Totalitarian and Socialist countries that have.
    I’m not raising a banner for socialism here so I don’t know why you’re bringing this up.

    Incidentally, this falls short of your own original question to me explaining the evils in capitalism “directly imputed because of the system itself and not because of man’s wickedness?” Socialist, fascist etc. countries going to war to dominate others is a result of the fallen human nature – unless you are saying that these systems of government cause people to sin and capitalism doesn’t? We could then discuss Romans 3 if you would like ;)

    Furthermore, are you really implying that capitalist countries are squeaky clean? There is more than just one way to dominate another country.

    This latest recession is the result of greedy capitalism, after all. Capitalism may work if we live in a perfect world, but we don’t.

    Do you think that capitalism is God’s own manifesto for economics? Now I would be interested in hearing that answer.

  • Hey DTW

    “Prosperity Gospel is not a result of capitalism or part of capitalism for that matter.

    Yes, I know it’s a bit of a stretch but at the same time I am hi-lighting the fact that the prosperity gospel hasn’t come from anywhere else except capitalist countries, and most notably America, which is probably as capitalistic as it gets.

    Capitalism can provide a very good breeding ground for that sort of theology to take root, precisely because Mammon can take root fairly easily and openly in a capitalistic system.

    At any rate, I am not arguing that socialism or anything else is better. Mammon is there as well. I’m simply hi-lighting the fact that capitalism isn’t so amazing and perfect.

    “There is only one evil and that is sin. The Bible does not ask us to contemplate the meanings of life and why the world is so wretched because the answer is simple: if man followed God’s Word from day one we would not be in this situation.”

    Exactly, I agree 100%.

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Cool, now look at capitalism vs another type of system from a non-Christian point of view. We all know that there are good things and bad things in both. Even democracy is a just a cover up to give sin ‘rights’.

    So look at this whole picture from a much deeper perspective. The World trying to change the world into something wonderful (full of love) who do not believe in the Bible, and False Christian churches trying to change the world in the same direction as the rest of the world, except these people use the Bible to back up their teachings.

    So how can the world (who is sinful) and the church (supposed to be Christian) all be moving in the same direction with the same goal? Both want a world of peace, the Bible says that this will never happen because the world is full of sin and they wont change their ways.

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan Peter,

    I disagree with your observations.

    In Communism the ‘redistribution of wealth’ is state sponsored theft – in direct opposition to God’s statutes. In Communism intelligence (and history etc) is state controlled. In Communism the state owns all the property – not individuals. This is in direct rebellion to God’s statutes about property and land rights and demarcations. Free speech. Control of the Press. Control of Telecoms…I can go on and on. Socialism is in direct rebellion to biblical principles.

    When socialist countries go to war it is mostly due to resources, not necessarily for empirical ambitions. The lack of resources is created by the system itself which leads it into poverty, so they have little choice but to do what Russia did in the cold war. (If they don’t invade the nation then sell/educate them to a poisonous, rebellious philosophy in exchange for weapons in return for resources) IT IS NOT NECESSARILY MAN’S INDIVIDUAL EVIL – IT IS THE SYTEM THAT IS EVIL! No matter how benevolent you are the system will soon change that.

    (Quote) Most Christians don’t know much about economical systems and the subtleties in politics. Do you think they should? Not everyone is highly educated nor has the opportunity to be educated in these matters. Is that wrong?(End of Quote)

    A resounding YES! It is absolutely wrong. The reasons why Christians are so ignorant and deluded is their mostly own fault – Christianity has been persistently dumbed down for the last 30 years (from the pulpit and the learning institutions). People have more time for the X-Box or television than studying what is around them. A outline of Christian worldviews will take 2 hours to cover in modern English (including economics) which would suffice for now.

    THERS IS NOTHING EVIL IN CAPITALISM AS A SYSTEM. People flourish under the system, it is the INDIVIDUAL EVIL that corrupts things. This is a very different premise.

    DTW,

    First time I don’t fully agree with you. If we changed Capitalism to ‘Free- Market’ in terms of purely economics there is zero evil in the system. That is because it is the biblical principle of economics – HOWEVER, the bible also only allows Gold and Silver as trading currency. The banks have been stealing from us for a long time plus the US got off the gold standard in the 1970’s – that is why we are in a financial mess. If we all had stuck to the Gold standard and not printed money at will the crisis would have been contained.

    If we glue Capitalism into democracy that’s another story, there are some flaws in a pure democracy but it’s the best we got until Christ.

    BTW, the economic system of the antichrist will likely be fascism – a synthesis of capitalism and socialism. Most bible scholars agree on this one. (This is why Obama is pushing socialist policies – trying to nationalist industries and healthcare etc.)

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan Peter

    Last word which I forgot to add.

    (Quote) I’m not raising a banner for socialism here so I don’t know why you’re bringing this up. (End of Quote)

    Simply to show you that Karl Marx (the dude that wrote the communist manifesto) was inspired by the devil, read his poetry – he openly declares war on God and vows to destroy everything he created. Socialism – the root – is evil therefore the whole tree can only bear evil fruit. (That’s a statement Jesus made.) There is no Capitalist manifesto or anything of the sort.

    Read the parable of the talents (talents is/was an actual currency – that changes things from some modern interpretations…). God expects a return of what he bestowed on his servants, it’s called interest (even if you spiritualize it – I believe both views are valid and meant to be interpreted that way). Fairness and just balances- especially in trading – are very biblical principles.

    There is not necessarily evil in both systems, I don’t agree with that premise.

  • Michael Anthony

    OK, How many Ryan Peters are there???

    I only noticed this post after submitting my last posts. I apologize in advance if my answers seems a ‘little’ flippant.

    Capitalism can lead to unfair distribution of wealth, excessive materialism (a love of money), monopolies, unfair trade, exploitation, major class gaps, a glorifying of the individual, a lack of responsibility to the community / others, humanism, and such things

    Really? Is excessive materialism a problem of man’s greed or the Capitalist system’s? (We have whipped this horse to death) Unfair distribution of wealth? You are even thinking? This is starting to sound like Lucifer. It’s called – you get what you work for. I think it is people that are envious of success. The problem seems to be with envy, not the system.

    Unfair trade? What, is that just a filler? (What are talking here – child labour? What exactly?)
    Exploitation? Of what? Is that due to the system? Exploitation has zero to due with a free market, it has everything to so with exploitation (intentional) Humanism? Huh? And this is caused by Capitalism? Ok…

    There are also different forms of capitalism, of course.

    Please tell us how many there are because I am confused with which one you mean.

    These are the results because of man’s wickedness.

    No! Really?

    Likewise, on paper socialism looks great (an ideal) but falls short because of man’s wickedness. And many of its failings are very similar to what we see in capitalism anyway – and in many other systems – because the problem is obviously with man.

    No, Socialism does not even look great on paper. Not even on great paper. Anybody with half a brain can see that it will not work – if it looked great on paper every country would have tried it. Only a few did.

    George Orwell’s Animal Farm comes to mind.
    Would something OT like a Jubilee work in capitalism? Just something to think about. I mention it because it shows something of God’s heart (mercy for people in debt) that capitalism doesn’t make much space for.

    IT IS UP YO YOU TO FORGIVE YOUR NEIGHBOURS DEBT IF THEY CANNOT REPAY, NOT THE SYSTEM. (Jesus was quite clear on this) What, you want the banks to write off your debts? Who writes off theirs?

    I doubt that God’s plan is capitalism when the new heavens and new earth are here. Whether capitalism is the lesser of two evils is hard to say, since a lot depends on how it (or socialism) is controlled.

    No one said it would be.

    But to defend capitalism as if it’s God’s own manifesto for government is really all I’m digging at. Many ‘conservatives’ tend to treat it that way – in fact, Brannon Howse is one such individual who seems, from the outset, to treat it that way.

    Yeah, and so do I.

    OK, mister anti-capitalist. You have knocked the free market system. What then is the biblical system? What then is the perfect system? I mean, you are the expert in what’s wrong with it, after all. What is the perfect model?

    Again, apologies for the sarcasm but I don’t know how else to answer some of these…

  • Discerning the World

    Michael

    I think I didn’t explain myself properly which is highly possible as I was non compesmentus yesterday. Gotta throw in my big word for the day lol.

    You said “DTW,

    First time I don’t fully agree with you. If we changed Capitalism to ‘Free- Market’ in terms of purely economics there is zero evil in the system. That is because it is the biblical principle of economics – HOWEVER, the bible also only allows Gold and Silver as trading currency. The banks have been stealing from us for a long time plus the US got off the gold standard in the 1970’s – that is why we are in a financial mess. If we all had stuck to the Gold standard and not printed money at will the crisis would have been contained.

    If we glue Capitalism into democracy that’s another story, there are some flaws in a pure democracy but it’s the best we got until Christ.

    BTW, the economic system of the anti-Christ will likely be fascism – a synthesis of capitalism and socialism. Most bible scholars agree on this one. (This is why Obama is pushing socialist policies – trying to nationalist industries and healthcare etc.)”

    I agree re: free-market, gold and silver, printing paper money, false credit (imaginary money), new economic system will likely be fascism (I agree) – the same thing is happening her in SA (new government medical scheme)

    As for democracy – I was not including capitalism into democracy or vice versa. I was just showing democracy as being another disguised evil in our world that was inevitable and like you say the best we got – the best way to deal with human rights – yet it has it’s deep dark side as it will in future deny Christians preaching the gospel as it invades peoples right. That’s what I meant.

  • Amanda

    Ryan:

    Capitalism can lead to unfair distribution of wealth

    Unfair?
    Distribution?

    And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
    (Genesis 3:17-19)

    The unfair distribution of wealth?

    “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
    (Exodus 20:17)

    What would the fair distribution of wealth look like?

    Likewise, on paper socialism looks great (an ideal)

    Bwa-ha-ha-ha!

    Yes, I know it’s a bit of a stretch but at the same time I am hi-lighting the fact that the prosperity gospel hasn’t come from anywhere else except capitalist countries, and most notably America, which is probably as capitalistic as it gets.

    Oh, evil America. People are fleeing the Land of the Free and jumping the Great Wall just to get into communist China to share in the fair distribution of wealth.

    Don’t fret about evil America. The emergent church in Africa is going to get them. They are demanding that America redistribute wealth for the evil of colonialism, I mean, slavery [see Amahorror] and for the evil of warming the planet. [see here] Or is it cooling the planet? No matter. They are gonna pay, uh, redistribute their wealth to us. It is only fair.

  • Hi Michael,

    There’s only one of me :) My email address keeps changing depending on what PC I am using at the time, but I think I’ve found the right email address to use for my Gravatar so there won’t be any confusion anymore.

    Because of the confusion your posts feel as if you’re running circles around me at the moment. I’ll have to consolidate them and try and answer one question at a time.

    I’ll do this later today.

    In the meantime please remember where I am coming from – I already said in previous posts that I speak as a layman. I am making observations based on what I actually see in the world today, like most ordinary people.

    You seem quite passionate about this subject. I’m grateful for that. I’ll answer your questions later.

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    >> I am making observations based on what I actually see in the world today

    That is where you are making a big mistake, you can’t do this. You need to base your observations based on what is going on in the world today and compare them to Scripture. The Bible will always tell the truth and also why things are they way they are due to mankind’s sin. This is why technically I don’t bother myself with all this stuff, Jesus told us to watch and pray and focus on the Word of God. These things that are happening in the world are meant to be and we can’t change them. But there will be changes that will be made and they are not going to be good ones – get your life in order, come to Jesus Christ with a sincere heart and ask Him to show you the truth because you want to know the truth, you do not want to be deceived – you don’t want your loved ones deceived either…

    Do you agree or disagree that the Emergent dialogue is a good or bad thing?

  • Michael Anthony

    Prosperity Gospel

    The prosperity gospel is actually a subtle form of socialism. The people give to a pulpit dictator on whose every word they hang. They are convinced that the spiritual governance (what they think is god) will provide everything for them (healthcare and daily bread just like a communist state) if they give (just like to a state, except that in a state it is institutionalized).

    Instead if working hard and studying to improve ie a career they think that magic prosperity falls from heaven. It’s called laziness. It’s also identical to communism. They are enslaved to the system. They are all the poorer for it and the prosperity pimps are super rich for it. Just an observation.

    The evil root of Socialism

    It is astounding how deceptive this is – don’t for one minute believe this is purely a failed economic system. It is all over Christian theology and doctrines nowadays. Probably the least subtle form is Liberation Theology. A quote from

    http://www.gotquestions.org/liberation-theology.html

    Liberation Theology is an attempt to interpret Scripture through the plight of the poor. It is largely a humanistic doctrine. It started in South America in the turbulent 1950s when Marxism was making great gains among the poor because of its emphasis on the redistribution of wealth, allowing poor peasants to share in the wealth of the colonial elite and thus upgrade their economic status in life. As a theology, it has very strong Roman Catholic roots.

    There are even Christians, yes, and clergymen, some of high standing, who are sure that while Jesus might have had the right answers about how to get to heaven, Marx had the right answers about how to help the hungry, destitute, and oppressed on earth. This has become rampant thought in the emergent church.

    Look at Karl Marx’s poetry (see http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/marx.htm)
    In His poem Human Pride, Marx admits that his aim is not to improve the world, reform or revolutionize it, but simply to ruin in and the enjoy it being ruined:

    With disdain I will throw my gauntlet full in the face of the world,
    And see the collapse of this pygmy giant whose fall will not stifle my ardor.
    Then will I wander godlike and victorious through the ruins of the world
    And, giving my words an active force, I will feel equal to the Creator. [24]

    ….We are not ignorant of Satan’s devices.

    Back to the topic – change means ‘revolution’ (to socialism). Even socialists will openly admit that this is what ‘change’ means. The social gospel (ala emergent church and Christian liberalism) is socialism wrapped in christian garb and has it roots in Catholicism.

    Connect the dots….

    When you attack the free market system – even with every sincere motive to help others – you could be doing the devil’s bidding. Just an observation.

  • ”In Communism the ‘redistribution of wealth’ is state sponsored theft – in direct opposition to God’s statutes. In Communism intelligence (and history etc) is state controlled. In Communism the state owns all the property – not individuals. This is in direct rebellion to God’s statutes about property and land rights and demarcations. Free speech. Control of the Press. Control of Telecoms…I can go on and on. Socialism is in direct rebellion to biblical principles.

    When socialist countries go to war it is mostly due to resources, not necessarily for empirical ambitions. The lack of resources is created by the system itself which leads it into poverty, so they have little choice but to do what Russia did in the cold war. (If they don’t invade the nation then sell/educate them to a poisonous, rebellious philosophy in exchange for weapons in return for resources) IT IS NOT NECESSARILY MAN’S INDIVIDUAL EVIL – IT IS THE SYTEM THAT IS EVIL! No matter how benevolent you are the system will soon change that.”

    Me: Granted, but is there not a problem with capitalism that it requires an increase in consumerism for it to continue working?

    If people in capitalist nations followed the biblical injunction to be content with simplicity (1 Tim 6:6-10) then could capitalism continue? Or would the system fail?

    If the system would fail, does it not follow that capitalism allows for greed to flourish easily and may even require greed to continue happening in order for it to continue working?

    The reasons why Christians are so ignorant and deluded is their mostly own fault – Christianity has been persistently dumbed down for the last 30 years (from the pulpit and the learning institutions). People have more time for the X-Box or television than studying what is around them. A outline of Christian worldviews will take 2 hours to cover in modern English (including economics) which would suffice for now.

    Me: But herewith my problem – do you not think capitalism allows / cultivates a culture that encourages people to have more time for their Xbox and TV? In other words, does it not encourage consumerism?

    And, because the system requires consumerism to continuously escalate to sustain itself, consumerism turns into mass / extreme consumerism, which opens the door for greed, pillaging of resources, taking advantage of others, and for corporations to find ways to take unfair advantage (use sweatshops etc.) to remain increasingly competitive to sustain the increasing consumerism.

    This is one of my main issues.

    However, from another angle, we surely cannot blame the poor for not having the resources to study economical systems. We can surely take pastors, preachers, teachers and the like to task but we cannot blame the poor (who don’t have an Xbox, perhaps) for this.

    However, observation and studies show us that the poor are more interested in getting cell phones and nice goodies in our own South African culture. Why is it that poor girls will sell their bodies for a cell phone? Is consumerism not at least slightly to blame for this clear problem in people’s priorities? And if so, what does capitalism do to curb consumerism and keep it under balanced control?

    Simply to show you that Karl Marx (the dude that wrote the communist manifesto) was inspired by the devil, read his poetry – he openly declares war on God and vows to destroy everything he created. Socialism – the root – is evil therefore the whole tree can only bear evil fruit. (That’s a statement Jesus made.) There is no Capitalist manifesto or anything of the sort.

    ME: Ok, no problem.

    Read the parable of the talents (talents is/was an actual currency – that changes things from some modern interpretations…). God expects a return of what he bestowed on his servants, it’s called interest (even if you spiritualize it – I believe both views are valid and meant to be interpreted that way). Fairness and just balances- especially in trading – are very biblical principles.

    ME: Ok, but we also know that in Acts 2:45 the early church were selling their goods and “distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need” and Paul in 2 Corinthians 8:13-14 encourages the church to give to those who are in more need than them – “I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that there may be fairness.

    The capitalistic system, on the other hand, says it is basically unfair to give to those who are less fortunate because the one who earns the wealth deserves the wealth. Now while there is obviously plenty of space for charity, the fact of the matter is surely that we can see that God’s heart reflects that wealth should be distributed equally at least in some form.

    Sure, we can’t go extreme (socialism et al) but surely we need something that will ensure the poor are able to get some form of mercy and another start?

    Sure, perhaps it is up to individuals to do this, but does the capitalism system encourage or discourage it? Can it really be neutral? Do you not think that capitalism has at least had some influence on the prevailing western (and quite inward focused) culture?

    Really? Is excessive materialism a problem of man’s greed or the Capitalist system’s? (We have whipped this horse to death) Unfair distribution of wealth? You are even thinking? This is starting to sound like Lucifer. It’s called – you get what you work for. I think it is people that are envious of success. The problem seems to be with envy, not the system.

    ME: Is this truly the case? As I mentioned above, do you not think that capitalism requires consumerism to increase and, if looked at carefully, requires some element of greed to keep itself sustained?

    Envy and greed work hand in hand. One who envies much is quite greedy.

    Here’s an example of greed and envy working together. What’s wrong with my car? Why do I need a bigger, faster car? Consumerism gives us a few answers: (1) You need to keep up with the Jones’s (envy); (2) You need to keep up with the times; (3) You deserve it (you’ve worked hard, after all); (4) bigger and faster is always better. Etc.

    And, not one, but TWO, not TWO but THREE, not THREE but a plane instead. More, more, more, better, better, better.

    So, again I’m asking – does capitalism encourage simplicity or consumerism? Does it encourage a time for contentment, to say “this is enough” or does it insist there must always be more? It seems to be the latter, but please do show if otherwise.

    Unfair trade? What, is that just a filler? (What are talking here – child labour? What exactly?)
    Exploitation? Of what? Is that due to the system? Exploitation has zero to due with a free market, it has everything to so with exploitation (intentional) Humanism? Huh? And this is caused by Capitalism? Ok…

    ME: Capitalism seems to encourage an excessive individuality (me and mine). The American dream is, after all, about retiring wealthy after having achieved some measure of success and fame. I must look after myself because I deserve it, after all.

    (quote)There are also different forms of capitalism, of course.(end of quote)

    Please tell us how many there are because I am confused with which one you mean.

    ME: I just mean we’re using the term fairly generally.

    IT IS UP YO YOU TO FORGIVE YOUR NEIGHBOURS DEBT IF THEY CANNOT REPAY, NOT THE SYSTEM. (Jesus was quite clear on this) What, you want the banks to write off your debts? Who writes off theirs?

    ME: Jubilee had a lot to do with land ownership (people would get their land back).

    Currently, the banks own most of the land in South Africa (so I have heard, at least). Is this right? Shouldn’t most of the land actually belong to people, not banks?

    Is it not capitalism that helps for corporation to own land in such mass amounts when, in fact, people should own the land?

    OK, mister anti-capitalist. You have knocked the free market system. What then is the biblical system? What then is the perfect system? I mean, you are the expert in what’s wrong with it, after all. What is the perfect model?

    Again, apologies for the sarcasm but I don’t know how else to answer some of these…

    ME: I am obviously not advocating some particular system (I said I am a layman). What I’m trying to do is show that capitalism isn’t squeeky clean and is certainly not God’s very own manifesto for economics.

    Instead of defending it so vehemently outright, why can’t conservatives like Howse or yourself also try and improve on it? If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, sure, but there must surely be a problem when we see how capitalist countries live such hyper-consumer (and may I add, boring and numbed down over-comfortable) lives.

    I’ve seen a lot of statistics thrown around, but apparently Americans spend 97 – 98 percent of their wealth on themselves. Why is this? Is it not that capitalism has at least, in some way, encouraged excessive consumerism? And, if so, what can be changed to actually bring consumerism into a more biblical worldview of simplicity and charity?

    The prosperity gospel is actually a subtle form of socialism. The people give to a pulpit dictator on whose every word they hang. They are convinced that the spiritual governance (what they think is god) will provide everything for them (healthcare and daily bread just like a communist state) if they give (just like to a state, except that in a state it is institutionalized).

    Instead if working hard and studying to improve ie a career they think that magic prosperity falls from heaven. It’s called laziness. It’s also identical to communism. They are enslaved to the system. They are all the poorer for it and the prosperity pimps are super rich for it. Just an observation.

    ME: That may be, but the fact of the matter is the prosperity gospel has been birthed in capitalist countries (or a capitalist country in particular), not socialist ones. My take is it is because capitalism encourages excessive consumerism which is exactly what the prosperity gospel is about – excessive consumerism (it’s all about me, it’s my time now, I deserve to be wealthy, etc.).

    Of course, laziness is part of the problem – but hard work is one thing, and good studying is only available to the rich (unless, of course, we allow government to step in and provide free education?)

    Plus, hard work is not everything. We are Christians, not Stoics :)

    Liberation Theology is an attempt to interpret Scripture through the plight of the poor. It is largely a humanistic doctrine. It started in South America in the turbulent 1950s when Marxism was making great gains among the poor because of its emphasis on the redistribution of wealth, allowing poor peasants to share in the wealth of the colonial elite and thus upgrade their economic status in life. As a theology, it has very strong Roman Catholic roots.

    When you attack the free market system – even with every sincere motive to help others – you could be doing the devil’s bidding. Just an observation.

    ME: Is helping the poor a purely individual responsibility? And, even if so, does capitalism encourage that responsibility or discourage it? From a purely observational point of view, it appears to discourage it. If I am not correct, how does it encourage it?

    I provide this answer here not to say “Karl Marx is cool” but simply to ask where the poor fit in with capitalism.

    Lastly, I realise I’ve asked a lot of questions, and I don’t need each one answered individually. I think the main thrust in this post is pretty obvious and would be interested in hearing your comments on it.

    Have I diverted from the topic yet? ;)

    Thanks
    Ryan

  • Hey DTW

    Do you agree or disagree that the Emergent dialogue is a good or bad thing?

    I still can’t give a straight answer to this. The reason is that the Emergent (or, rather Emerging) dialogue is too diverse and varied to make a generalisation.

    While I can most certainly highlight individuals who I disagree with and I think are on the wrong path and doing the wrong thing, I can’t clump the whole thing together because there are other individuals who sound and look nothing like the former individuals.

    The Emerging dialogue has no central philosophy or central theology. Here, at this blog, you are most certainly picking out many of the bad parts but there are also some good parts.

    A cursory glance at Wikipedia’s definition of the emerging church shows that it’s difficult to nail down one cohesive thought within the whole dialogue, although there does appear to be some clear values sticking out (such as missional living etc.). There is certainly nothing wrong with missional living in its most basic understanding.

    In conversations with people who classify themselves “Emerging” or at least hang out with people that do, there is such a wide array of beliefs and theologies that its difficult to clump them into one group. People are simply talking and debating with each other. That is at least how the whole thing started in the beginning (before some people started organisations like the Emergent Village etc. which I am not a fan of).

  • Hi Amanda,

    What would the fair distribution of wealth look like?

    2 Corinthians 8: 13-15
    “13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, 15 as it is written: “He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little.”

    The reason why I quote this is to draw your attention to my last reply to Michael. Somehow we need to correlate what we see happening here with other biblical passages that would support capitalism. Check out my post to Michael for a clearer idea of what I’m saying.

  • Discerning the World

    Ryan

    Ahhh ha! Ok. You have actually answered the question.

    You said: there is such a wide array of beliefs and theologies that its difficult to clump them into one group.

    There is only 1 gospel, 1 bible, 1 Jesus Christ the SON of God who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, walked the earth sinless, was crucified sinless for our sin that His split blood washes away our sin for those who accept His pardon! He ascended sinless to Heaven, and is now seated next to our Heavenly Father. The Bible is the final authority, nothing to be added or taken away. No other beliefs/theologies can be added to the Words God spoke in His Word.

    No their religion or belief has a messiah that fits the above Truth. Therefore it is easy to clump any ’emergent’ dialogue into the category that “opposes the Jesus Christ as described about in scripture”.

    Just cos one is not a fan of Emergent Village does not mean the other baby emergents out there are not going to land up thinking along their lines. And because the spirit of interfaith is very persuasive they will be brainwashed into believing that all faiths lead to the same God through the same Christ.

    So next question. Do you agree or disagree that other religion’s beliefs can be intermingled, entwined with Christianity without people within their respective religions denouncing the god they worshipped and follow Jesus Christ the Son of God only (I am speaking about the Jesus Christ I mentioned above)?

  • Amanda

    Ryan

    The Emerging dialogue has no central philosophy or central theology.

    Yes, it does, it’s eschatology. They believe in Kingdom Now. They say that God’s Kingdom is being established here on earth through ever good deed and luv. They do not believe that Jesus Christ is going to return at a specific point in time.

    They are also universalistic: the Good News is good news for everybody, not just for those who have faith.

    before some people started organisations like the Emergent Village etc. which I am not a fan of

    Then maybe you should take a closer look at Amahorror and its roots.

    They use the Hegalian dialectic to get to the Third Way.

    They do not believe Sola Scriptura, but rate experience and feelings highly.

    Somehow we need to correlate what we see happening here with other biblical passages that would support capitalism.

    In 2 Cor 8 Paul speaks highly of the generosity of the churches in Macedonia:

    We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints– and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us. (2 Corinthians 8:1-5)

    Verse 4: begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints. Paul did not burden the church with the responsibility to relieve poverty in all the world and neither did he institute a political or financial system for the world.

    But as you excel in everything–in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in our love for you–see that you excel in this act of grace also. I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine.
    (2 Corinthians 8:7-8)

    It is an act of grace for Christians to be generous with their own money towards the saints. This is not a blueprint for the Kingdom Now here on earth.

    Ryan, are you trying to apply this to the world, thinking that if the world conforms to Christian acts of grace, then the Kingdom will be established, even if the vast majority of people remain in unbelieve?

  • Michael Anthony

    Amanda,

    Well put.

    Ryan Peter,

    Because you do not actually address the merits of an economic system in relevant terms and keep hammering on man’s wickedness it would seem that one is a result of the other. That’s called a false dichotomy. I don’t know why you keeping using the same line of argument (but I will give you credit, you spent a lot of time rewording it).

    Off the racket you bang the tennis ball straight into the net – consumerism. It’s like being hungry then blaming the person feeding you for making too many choices available to you. Well, you don’t have to eat it all do you? It’s your choice. The system does not make its mind up for you.

    After Jesus rose again from the dead there were as many poor people in the world as there were when he was born. There were as many greedy people when he was born as there were when he was resurrected – you get the picture. Jesus did NOT come to change the Roman political system or feed the world’s poor. (He only fed the 5000 only because they were far from home and he had been preaching for a long time. The bible is clear on this passage – it was getting late in the day and the disciples waned to send the people home. Feeding was done as a necessity so that Jesus could carry on preaching. Jesus concentrated on the lost, not the poor.)

    You use this logic that ‘capitalism is not squeaky clean’ – neither is the church, neither are we. You begin from a false premise. Never did I allude to Capitalism being anywhere close to perfect.

    The bible is clear that we are not to love this world or the things of this world. We conservatives hold to a free market system because herein we find the closest to a biblical model. On the other hand Christian Liberalism and the Emergent church use the economic system – and the changing thereof – as some kind of biblical doctrine. (And to further their idealistic, imaginary world).

    You have this fixation with looking after the poor; that is a very liberal mindset – they feel guilty every time they see a beggar. I don’t; I cannot change things. I also know that once upon a time I slept on the streets but God changed me and provided for me. I have faith in God, not in any system. The true miracle is when God changes a person’s heart so that instead of being a drain on the system one actually contributes to it. True compassion is more than just giving alms to the poor.

    ‘Capitalism allows greed to flourish?’ Greed is RELATIVE – it does not matter the total or lesser amount of any commodity, greed is greed is greed. Greed is never satisfied. This breaks down your argument for the prosperity gospel. The prosperity gospel flourishes in Nigeria, Zambia and Kenya just to mention a few. These are not consumerist economies, they are poor countries! In fact the prosperity gospel could flourish is a socialist country. (What’s the point of these prosperity wolves going there? The poor people there cannot even afford to even pay the fuel for their private jets) Wealth is relative. Stealing 10 Rand from a person who only has 10 Rand is worse than stealing 100 000 Rand from a person who has 1 Million.

    The prosperity (type) gospel was around in Paul’s time where false apostles were making merchandise of God’s people – this was amongst mostly slaves.

    Your eyes are lying to you; just because you see pomp and excess in relative terms within a rich society does not mean that it is not an equal sin in a poorer society. Didn’t Jesus praise the widow who gave ALL she had? Jesus was not counting money by numerical values but by the motive of the heart. You are measuring with a wrong yardstick.

    You make these self-refuting statements; you blame capitalism for the world’s ills and for creating distractions from studying – yet without a free market economy you would not have bibles or learning material in abundance. (Ask the Chinese or the East Europeans).

    If you really want to be Pious please go give all your material wealth to the poor and go live in a shack, protesting the ills of Capitalism.

    WOW!!

    God’s heart reflects that wealth should be distributed equally at least in some form.

    So, in heaven we all ALL going to receive the same rewards? You have got to be kidding me. The free market system rewards diligence and hard work and punishes slothfulness and waste (and of course, sin). That is God’s standard and an image of his character. It is also God’s standard to be gracious to those that seek first his kingdom, then all these things will be added…

    If God can feed all the birds of the air he will feed those that seek him first. Not man, not the liberal church and its social programs and not the emergent church.

    Good studying is only available to the rich? Nah, come on Ryan Peter. This is an unfair statement. I did not finish school, was born to an extremely poor family and yet today I more educated than most people. In a free market there are plenty of opportunities.

    ’tis all for now. I can hear echoes in my head from repeating myself.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    echoooooooooo, echoooooo, echoooo, echoo, echo, ech, o … yes I hear it too.

  • cecilia

    Ryan Peter
    November 4th, 2009 at 12:51 am
    Interesting line to follow. I don’t like the circles tho’! so Ryan, I see you’ve started (against your own advice to me some time back) to use the NIV. Just saying…
    cecilia

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ryan

    Who has been indoctrinating you? Give me his name, I am gonna walk over there and slap them silly. Please do not for one second tell me that Jesus Christ was a revolutionist? In fact I had someone tell me today over the phone that they don’t understand why you do not come out and just say that you are leaning the communist way. That either you don’t have the understanding of what you are actually saying or don’t want to say it because you are trying to keep undercover. Nope, not someone who comments on this site, just in case you are wondering

    What’s up with this layman thing. Do you realise that you contradict yourself by calling yourself this vs what you are trying to promote. A layman is someone who considers themselves common, devoid of any knowledge because you are not educated in Christian things or an ordained a minister. You are using this excuse to muddy the waters. You either care to know the truth or your want to follow wicked doctrines. Do you have a Bible? When you study it what are you doing exactly? Why oh why are you bent on trying to find another answer or something different to what the Bible says? I know the answer to this…you do too. But I want you to have the guts to say it.

    I had a conversation with a seriously educated person this weekend, no really – I think he probably even has an advanced driving course certificate for over 60’s and preparing to go into space soon lol. I am going to write a small article to him (sorry if you are younger than 60, Dr. Piet Muller, no disrespect to you). So after listening to him speak for all of 30 minutes at this day-seminar (that cost me a small fortune) I felt like I was in a bad low budget movie, tied to a chair blinded by an old 200w light bulb shining smack in my eyes, being forced to listen to an utter load of hogwash and being told that if I want too I can become the light. With all this mans education he is dim, no light in him. Guess what, he is a Gnostic and admits it and openly teaches against Christianity. Quite frankly I prefer the honest ones- least you know where you stand.

    You better think very very very carefully before you answer this ‘what I really believe’ question. No pressure. It’s not us you are actually going to have to answer too in the end or now for that matter. We will leave you and your secret between you and God.

    Structure: Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism
    Religion: We are god (Christ)
    Result: Fascism
    – Imperialism is the highest form of capitalism.
    – Shifts the struggle from developed to underdeveloped countries.
    – Complete focus on the individual with himself at its centre.
    – Classless society (except for the ones at the top).
    – Community based (collectivisation).
    – Use of art, poetry, writing to stir the ’cause’, stir emotion and numb thought in a post-modern world (socialist realism)

  • Hi Michael,

    You use this logic that ‘capitalism is not squeaky clean’ – neither is the church, neither are we. You begin from a false premise. Never did I allude to Capitalism being anywhere close to perfect.

    If that is the case, cool, but then why did you agree with this statement?

    ME: But to defend capitalism as if it’s God’s own manifesto for government is really all I’m digging at. Many ‘conservatives’ tend to treat it that way – in fact, Brannon Howse is one such individual who seems, from the outset, to treat it that way.

    Michael Anthony: Yeah, and so do I.

    If it is God’s own manifesto for government then it is squeaky clean – in fact, it is perfect.

    Heck, if you don’t think it’s perfect we have nothing to argue about – but you agreed, outright, that you treat it as God’s own manifesto for government. (See your post November 2nd, 2009 at 1:20 pm).

    Well, since you’ve cleared that up then there’s nothing to debate.

    Incidentally, can you point me to two or three sources so I can do some further reading on the topic?

    All

    I have asked nothing but questions to Michael Anthony in these posts, and in the details the question really revolves around whether or not capitalism requires more and more consumerism to keep itself alive (see my post November 3rd, 2009 at 11:19 am). If it does, then there is a fault with the system. That was my point. Michael agrees that capitalism is not squeaky clean so then I feel there is nothing further to debate.

    I’ve said I’m not ‘raising a banner for socialism’ (see my post on November 2nd, 2009 at 9:22 am) and called socialism ‘an extreme’ (see my post November 3rd, 2009 at 11:19 am).

    DTW, your friend on the phone should perhaps actually read what I am writing and not read their own presupposition of my agenda into what I am writing. It’s totally extreme and without reason to say that if one asks questions about capitalism they are automatically leaning towards communism.

    I’m just asking questions, which is very much what the Bereans did. The automatic suspicion your friend seems to have of anyone asking questions sounds like a socialism way of thinking if I ever encountered one (I say tongue-in-cheek).

    A layman is someone who considers themselves common, devoid of any knowledge because you are not educated in Christian things or an ordained a minister

    Your definition of layman isn’t exactly correct. A layman is simply a non-professional or a non-expert in a field of knowledge (it simply doesn’t mean someone is devoid of all knowledge as you said). Or that someone is not clergy or an ordained minister. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layman or wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn or even dictionary.com.

    You either care to know the truth or your want to follow wicked doctrines. Do you have a Bible? When you study it what are you doing exactly? Why oh why are you bent on trying to find another answer or something different to what the Bible says? I know the answer to this…you do too. But I want you to have the guts to say it.

    I have sent you a private email to answer this question. If you would like to make it public, I don’t mind, that’s up to you :)

    Amanda,

    Verse 4: begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints. Paul did not burden the church with the responsibility to relieve poverty in all the world and neither did he institute a political or financial system for the world.

    Michael felt at liberty to use the parable of the talents as a means to support capitalism – a parable which was in the context of talking about the end of the age and was spoken to the disciples.

    If Michael can use this parable to show that capitalism, an economical system, is right, I can use my example to show that economics should also have some degree of charity built in. If I can’t use mine, then he can’t use his, as his is just as out of its original context as mine.

    Ryan, are you trying to apply this to the world, thinking that if the world conforms to Christian acts of grace, then the Kingdom will be established, even if the vast majority of people remain in unbelieve?

    No.

    The Kingdom will be fully established when Christ visibly and personally returns. In the meantime, we preach the gospel of Jesus’ death and resurrection and the repentance of sins to all the nations.

  • Hey DTW

    So next question. Do you agree or disagree that other religion’s beliefs can be intermingled, entwined with Christianity without people within their respective religions denouncing the god they worshipped and follow Jesus Christ the Son of God only (I am speaking about the Jesus Christ I mentioned above)?

    If I understand you grammar correctly, I disagree with the statement. Other religion’s beliefs cannot be intermingled with Christianity without those of the other beliefs worshipping the Jesus you refer to exclusively.

    Because, to be Christian – by definition – means to worship Jesus exclusively. There’s no other way about it. Therefore, if anyone wants to intermingle Christianity with a belief outside of this they are not Christian.

  • Michael Anthony

    Hi Cecilia,

    Are you saying that the only good thing about this monotonous debate of free market v closet socialism in Christendom is that Ryan Peter may be NIV positive?

    That was tongue in cheek, please take it with a wafer of salt. Or something like that…

  • Are you saying that the only good thing about this monotonous debate of free market v closet socialism in Christendom is that Ryan Peter may be NIV positive?

    Ha ha, lol.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ryan

    Yeah that was bad grammar lol, never the less your answer was fine.

    Next question: There are 2 Christs presented to the world. How would you seperate the two from one another. As an example Buddhists believe in Christ and so do Hindu’s.

    If a Buddhist were to come to you and ask you to expain the difference between the Jesus they believe in and the Jesus you believe in what would you say? (Note: they believe that the Jesus they believe in is the same Jesus as the one you believe in).

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ryan

    I asked this question because after re-reading everything again (yesterday), after I got to read everything the first time when approving your comments (across all posts) you definitely are trying to find a better solution to capitalism, you are also very sympathetic to socialism. The same thing that the Emergent movement is all about. This is why the person on the phone does not understand where you stand, and neither do I.

    The problem with this entire conversation is that a genuine Christian would not even been getting themselves involved in finding solutions to saving the worlds problems through socialist ideologies. And they disguise themselves and use the manual 1) Purposely driving you to be missional 2) Purposely driving you nuts 3) No more purpose, just listen to your leader.

    One of the biggest mis-conceptions is that the Bible is the answer the the worlds problems. No. It’s only the answer to those who are born again as the Bible is now the manual on how to live a Christ-like life through conviction of sin and repentance. Good fruit can only come from Jesus Christ. Bad fruit will come from the world. This is why Emergent dialogue says that the bible is not good enough for the 21st century, well it wont be if they are not saved. They think the world’s problems as it stands today is the caused by an old Christian worldview – so they need to change it to a new Christian world view (that is more socialistic – go out and work yourself to death for someone else who is poorer than you – this will now change the world).

    The Bible to the saved it is the most valuable glorious book that leads one (through the counselling of the Holy Spirit) into living a godly life.

  • Amanda

    Ryan

    Relax. The West will go for the Third Way. You are trying way too hard to put a Biblical spin on it to get Christians to emerge with the liberals.

    I’m just asking questions, which is very much what the Bereans did.

    Not so.

    The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
    (Acts 17:10-11)

    It is the emergents who ask questions.

    Like you are doing here.

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan Peter,

    You have reduced the topic into a nit picking harvest.

    It may startle you to know that I am a big enemy of corporatism (that word has only really emerged into the political dictionary in the last few years) and big government taking over big business = corporate fascism. This is due to wickedness in high places, not as direct result of the free market system.

    It may also shock to know that Christian fundamentalism is heavily against excess (the bible is clear that we should be content with what we have) – what you call consumerism.
    It may further surprise you that the free market system was born out of the Reformation = individual responsibility.

    I hope that telescope you had to buy to eventually find a seeming contradiction did not cost you too much. When you read the bible and something seems like a contradiction you take the last known statement on the subject. You should apply that same rule when trying to be honest in understanding another person’s view.

    The ‘yeah, so do it’ was in reference of ‘yes, I too defend Capitalism’. NOT ‘Capitalism is God’s manifesto. That is a straw man you keep creating.

    Those are your words, I am not going to treat posts to you like I am submitting articles for the Times and make them go through some proof-reader and editor. Can you please exercise some honesty in the way you read my posts? I am not under trial and you should use those lawyer tactics elsewhere.

    There are places in my post that I stated ‘Free Market’ and not ‘Capitalism’ on purpose (go read my posts). Please make the distinction in context.

    The parable of the talents is about Stewardship – it does not ‘support Capitalism’, you created that rigid perception out of nothing and inserted it into your rebuttal. (Go read my posts again). It supports the concept of interest or gain (producing more from what you already have i.e. using what God has given you to produce more and not being lazy = the unprofitable servant). Even with the strictest of hermeneutics it is clear that it has a double reference – spiritual & natural. The simple conclusion is that Capitalism is not perfect but is the best we got. Everyone else can see that was what I alluded to, except you, sherlock.

    You keep making the same mistake over and over again – you want to refer to a economic system that will bring economic righteousness on earth. Not this side of heaven.

    (quote) Incidentally, can you point me to two or three sources so I can do some further reading on the topic? (end of quote)

    Yep, the bible.

    Here’s the crunch.

    Remember the anti-war (i.e. Vietnam) movement? Well it was not really against the war…I can prove that because when Cambodia fell just after the US left Vietnam, two Million people were slaughtered. Not a single protest by the liberals. Hypocrites…it was not really about the war but a leverage to bring an end to the free system. The most ardent protesters were socialists coming out of the closet.

    (The merits for or against the Vietnam etc war is not the issue here, just in case you have another ahaha! moment)

    Today we don’t have a war so the liberals are using global warming and climate change/carbon footprints. They have to invent stuff to further their dreams of taxing us to death, redeem us of our liberties and controlling everything we do where they make government god.

    What makes us ‘fundamentalists’ even more astounded is that those same tactics and debates are deeply ingrained into Christendom and being used today.

    Go figure.

    What would you rather have – a system where there is not excess and consumerism but rather an economic system ruled by the antichrist where you cannot buy or sell except by his control? At least there won’t be greed or consumerism in that system, so it must be righteous. Right?

  • Amanda

    Ryan

    The Kingdom will be fully established when Christ visibly and personally returns.

    Are we helping to establish the kingdom through our good works? Is the kingdom in the process of being established?

    In the meantime, we preach the gospel of Jesus’ death and resurrection and the repentance of sins to all the nations.

    Do you have a link to another sermon of yours to proof it? The previous one that I listened to did not quite make the grade.

  • Michael Anthony

    Here are two links that give an overview of the link between Capitalism and the Reformation.

    This is wikipedia – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

    This other link does not seem pro refornmation or pro capitalism but gives you a good overview.

    http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa49

    There are two notable quotations –

    Calvinism positively encourages the purposeful investment of money, by presenting luxury and self-indulgence as vices and thrift as a virtue.

    Weber argues that Puritan ethics and ideas influenced the development of capitalism. Religious devotion, however, usually accompanied a rejection of worldly affairs, including the pursuit of wealth and possessions.

  • Michael Anthony,

    I won’t get into a debate and argue about the argument (with regards to your nitpicking and sherlock comments) which are pretty unwarranted. I already said that since the issue is cleared up I have nothing further to debate.

    You yourself have gotten annoyed with me over previous debates and my lack of debating ability. So I simply took my discussions with you more seriously, assuming you are the kind of person who takes more care into his writing and his answers.

    Heck, I’m getting nitpicked at here all the time. Have you not noticed?

    But nevermind all that. I understand where you’re coming from and have no problem.

    Amanda,

    Are we helping to establish the kingdom through our good works? Is the kingdom in the process of being established?

    Jesus established the Kingdom when he arrived on the scene. The Kingdom will come in its fullness when he comes back on the scene visibly and personally.

    Do you have a link to another sermon of yours to proof it? The previous one that I listened to did not quite make the grade.

    No. I have only preached twice at my church and don’t have a copy of the latest one.

    Sorry the last one didn’t quite meet your standard.

    However, Michael Anthony says we shouldn’t get nitpicky (I say with my tongue in my cheek) so feel free to listen to my last sermon again with this fresh new perspective in mind.

  • If a Buddhist were to come to you and ask you to expain the difference between the Jesus they believe in and the Jesus you believe in what would you say? (Note: they believe that the Jesus they believe in is the same Jesus as the one you believe in).

    Buddhists are a tricky bunch. For one, they don’t believe in a personal god so when saying things like “Jesus is the Son of God” they’ll make that mean all sorts of things. So you have to first talk about God being a person etc.

    However, I don’t think Buddhists believe Jesus was raised from the dead so that is definately a great starting point from an apologetic point of view.

    As to the differences, though. Hmmm… Jesus is the Son of God, he was raised from the dead, he dies on the cross for our sins and trusting only and wholly on Jesus is the only way any one will go to heaven.

    Not the same Jesus as buddhists, who usually see Jesus as another Buddha – an ‘enlightened one’.

    Hindu’s are another whole kettle of fish. It’s easy for them to put Jesus alongside their thousands of other gods. However, the answer is probably the same as above. Trusting ONLY on Jesus is the real crunch, and that would be different to their Jesus who may be more like a prophet. The Son of God thing is a little difficult, I think, because they believe that their gods (or one god in particular, I can’t remember) regularly comes to earth in human form. So they can just assume Jesus is another one of those.

    I’m not sure how one would approach this with Hindus outside of Western culture. Those in western culture usually understand what these terms mean, but I know of churches in India which really struggle to get the concept across that one cannot worship other gods and Jesus at the same time…

  • Amanda

    Ryan

    Heck, I’m getting nitpicked at here all the time. Have you not noticed?

    You came onto this blog and defended Nic Paton, telling DTW that she has no choice but to treat him as a brother. On your own blog you defended Rob Bell and the word “disciplines”. Now you are using the Hegalian emergent type questions. Yes, I am watching you.

    Sorry the last one didn’t quite meet your standard.

    No, you did not preach:

    Jesus’ death and resurrection and the repentance of sins

    How can there be repentance if you do not preach God’s Law in such a way that it kills every self-righteous sinner, so that they know that they are done for? If you allow them to think that they can make it by trying a little harder they will never see their need for a Savior. They will not taste the sweetness of the Gospel.

    You can listen Chris Rosebrough review Pastor Jeremy Rhode’s sermon here or listen to his sermons here and you will see what I mean.

    Jesus established the Kingdom when he arrived on the scene. The Kingdom will come in its fullness when he comes back on the scene visibly and personally.

    Jesus Christ said:

    My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world. (John 18:36)

    The emergents say that the kingdom is being established here on earth. From Herescope:

    We had assumed that “God’s Dream” was a nebulous sort of phrase that meant different things in different contexts. We knew, from Warren Smith’s research and writings, that “God’s Dream” had a meaning to the New Age/New Spirituality leaders which was disturbingly similar to the ways in which Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, Brian McLaren and Bruce Wilkinson were using the phrase.[3] But what we didn’t realize was how pervasively “God’s Dream” has been used in the sense of creating a global PEACE on Earth. Several other terms connected this idea are “reconciliation” and “justice.”

    “God’s Dream” seems to have become the new mantra for peace. It is bandied about by leaders who have very similar agendas, both within and without the church. Below is a summary of the results of our search. This represents only a small summary of the overall picture. We must hasten to point out that we did not simply pick and choose evidence to back up this premise. Rather, it is very obvious that “God’s Dream” does have a meaning, and this meaning is universally shared by those who bandy the term about, and the meaning is almost always connected to the idea of restoring paradise type conditions, or building the kingdom of God on Earth, by man’s efforts for the purpose of creating peace on Earth.

    A few other interesting facts will come to light on this list below: 1) ground zero for “God’s Dream” appears to be the continent of Africa; 2) the names of modern-day ICONS are invoked — The Dalai Lama, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Jimmy Carter, Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Mikhail Gorbachev, etc. (Note: some living “saints” are part of The Elders); 3) this is intentionally a youth movement.

    I worry about you, Ryan.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ryan

    Ok. Your last paragraph is rather telling. Before I go there. Do you believe Catholics are christian?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ryan

    Based on a question and answer to Amanda.

    Amanda said: Are we helping to establish the kingdom through our good works? Is the kingdom in the process of being established?

    You replied: Jesus established the Kingdom when he arrived on the scene. The Kingdom will come in its fullness when he comes back on the scene visibly and personally.

    No, Jesus Christ IS the Kingdom of God. The kingdom is IN you when you are truly saved. Jesus Christ abides in you when you are truly saved. When Jesus Christ returns to set up His Kingdom… *quiet* oh my…I don’t how to explain this to you, I have hit a dead end, no really… you think like a Kingdom maker or helper – Latter Rain nonsense. This Kingdom setting up has nothing to do with your salvation – these are two separate things. Your only concern should be to preach the correct gospel to people, nothing else. That they are SAVED and have the Holy Spirit – the Kingdom of God who is Jesus Christ come to abide IN them and once born again are now a child of God part of His Spiritual Kingdom – there is nothing earthly about any of this.

    [Edited DTW: Amanda added the verse I counld not think of at the time…. “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world. (John 18:36)]

    I’m not sure how one would approach this with Hindus outside of Western culture. Those in western culture usually understand what these terms mean, but I know of churches in India which really struggle to get the concept across that one cannot worship other gods and Jesus at the same time…

    And this goes back to your paragraph above where your relationship with Jesus Christ is (does not seem) but is completely impersonal. You have missed the entire core of who Jesus Christ is. You follow a Jesus Christ who is based on certain criteria, terms, a definition in order for Him to be the real Jesus Christ. And because someone is from a different culture it can and possibly will be diffuclt for them to understand who Jesus Christ is.

    So after you have answered the above Roman Catholic question, you can answer this one…

    Do you think that the Holy Spirit is that useless that people of other cultures will not understand WHO HE IS because they personally struggle to comprehend? Rubbish. Ok, I answered this for you.

    All you have to now answer is the Catholic question.

  • Michael Anthony

    I have just listened you congresswoman Michele Bachmann on the David Wheaton show; the US government already controls 30% of the economy. (Paid for by the US taxpayer). If the health bill goes through that’s another 18% of the total economy. That’s 48%………WOW! Goodbye liberty my old friend.

    It would only be a matter of time before this lunacy played itself out with equal measure on these shores.

    By the way, that has nothing to do with the topic, Catholicism or Rome. Or does it?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hahaha, for those in the know…yes…otherwise…no ;)

    I realised today that our electricity crisis is man made too to bring this country down. So I am working on inventing wind-up internet access. I don’t think this has anything to do with Rome either, but we can always sell my invention to the Pope lol.

  • cecilia

    Ryan, November 6th
    >>> The problem with Hindus is that those who come to faith in Jesus Christ, have nowhere to go and must stay on in a household where the other gods are served …. Or move out (which many of them don’t have the finances for to do…) therefore: Holy Spirit is only One who can deliver them… we have to teach them DAILY from the WORD OF GOD (Bible) (without ANY human religious input!), how to discern the voice of Holy Spirit, now that they’re born again of God. Their main opposition is NOT the gods they have left, but the unconverted family and friends who put unbearable pressure on them because of their new found life in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I’ve seen ex-Hindu women coming to church for sometimes months with the dot still in front of the forehead… no other gods in their houses, all destroyed… they chose to serve the real Jesus, YET the tradition, the usual norm, must be ‘destroyed’/changed in the mindset to bring about the breakthrough… (Rom. 12:1, 2) Our main input here is not to teach religion, but to help them learn scripture by heart… I might add that most of those I know of, COULD NOT make the decision to be baptized (submerged under water) whilst still leaning towards traditional habits/practices – interesting!

    nothing can stand against the power of prayer – many of them get set free because of real Christian’s daily prayer for their saved and unsaved Hindu friends…

    and this is what I wanted to point out with this whole McLaren thing of conforming to other faiths! Up to today I REFUSE to wear a sari! And you know what, just because of the fact that I DO NOT WANT TO LOOK LIKE THEM, they would rather come and ask me questions and speak to me than to go to other Christians who do wear the same clothes – etc. The Hindu are a people who DO NOT TRUST other people! Not even their own. You got to show yourself approved (that is in your real interest in them, (not conformity), your care, your love, all those things…)

    and your words and life must be one – they put you under a microscope – they watch your every move, listen to your every word… if those don’t give them the same person, you can forget that they will ever trust you. (we should learn from them!)

    >>> a note about Buddhists: Buddhism is not a religion, it’s a philosophy. That’s why all faiths (including Free Masons, Roman Catholics, other christians, Hindus, Muslims, etc.) incorporate it into their own religions. Their main focus is enlightenment, the least of their worries – death. The strongman of the Buddhism house is the kundalini spirit/demonic entity.

    >>> D, may I be one of the first to ask – please share with me how you’re gonna do wind-up internet access?!
    cecilia

  • Amanda

    Ryan.

    However, Michael Anthony says we shouldn’t get nitpicky (I say with my tongue in my cheek) so feel free to listen to my last sermon again with this fresh new perspective in mind.

    I have listened to your sermon again and I apologize. You did in fact clearly preach repentance of sin and forgiveness in Jesus’ name. It was a lie to say that you did not. I am sorry.

    I missed the good preaching when I first listened to it, because of the several red flags that were raised. So without nitpicking, here are my revised comments about your sermon, now that I have actually listened to it. First off, you took the time to read large portions of scripture and that is very good. You preached sound Biblical doctrines. My problem is that you mixed psychological categories [stuck in a rut] with Biblical doctrines [unbelief is a sin]. You moved back and forth between Law [a long list of ‘we need to’] and Gospel [we have been forgiven]. And you left your listeners with the demand for good works, instead of the Gospel, which would produce the good works.

    Now for the red flags.

    1. Beware of the ‘prophets’ in your church, Ryan.
    2. We need to get off doctrine and ideas of God? ‘They are not necessarily wrong, but they are not completely right? They are not who God is in His fullness. He wants us to move on and learn more? At this point you should have said that we should study Scripture to learn more about God, but you did not.
    3. Then you preached about God wanting to partner with us to bring His kingdom to earth, that we advance the kingdom with everything we do. Oy, Ryan.

    This is actually a much better sermon than most of the DRC sermons that I have listened to, because it does preach repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus’ name. But the red flags …

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    C

    >> please share with me how you’re gonna do wind-up internet access?!

    I am working on it. Have gotten no where so far. You will be the first to know :) lol You I hear ‘they’ plan on increasing electricity prices by 300% over next 2 years and then another 300% over the next 2 years – and want to increase personal tax by 1% which will go to Eskom as well. So soon it’s going to costs me R1000 a month to run my microwave. So I will just increase my carbon foot print, chop down my neighbours tree and make a fire.

  • Michael Anthony

    Healthcare reforms have been passed. (07/11/2009)

    The US House of Representatives has backed a healthcare bill in a step towards reforms promised by President Obama, despite strong opposition.

    Chairman Obama is fullfiling his dream of a People’s Socialist Republic of America.

  • cecilia

    Michael Anthony:
    yeah, and to think they used poor little piglets as an excluse! (lol)! but we saw it coming, didn’t we (many of us…). I wanted to say thank heavens South Africa is a little behind America, but my word froze in my mind – the change seems to be going to rush like a strong wind over the whole globe… let’s keep standing and proclaim the truth, until He who comes, will not linger any more..
    cecilia

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    C

    >> the change seems to be going to rush like a strong wind over the whole globe

    Thats NAR talk. What you want to say is. These new world order changes are speading quickly over the entire earth. ;) The Apostles and Prophets reading this blog might actually view those strong winds as the ‘holy’ spirit (all lowercase) and get all excited haha.

  • cecilia

    thanks! ya, one thing you’re teaching me (which I not always catch on so quickly!) is to even change the ‘old way of speaking and thinking’. I must adhere to my own comment – Rom 12:1, 2 (lol)
    thanks debs! c

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Email to me by Ryan Peter. First the email to me from Ryan, then my response.

    ————-

    from: Ryan Peter
    to: DiscerningTheWorld
    date: 5 November 2009 10:39
    subject: Response to your latest post

    Hi DTW,

    The reason why I am sending this email to you privately is because it is pretty impassioned and I don’t want anyone or you to think it’s some sort of public attack on you.

    If you want to make it public, I have no problem with that :)

    Here’s what I’m responding to:

    You either care to know the truth or your want to follow wicked doctrines. Do you have a Bible? When you study it what are you doing exactly? Why oh why are you bent on trying to find another answer or something different to what the Bible says? I know the answer to this…you do too. But I want you to have the guts to say it.

    Why should I want to find anything different to what the Bible says?

    But I am wanting to find out what the Bible says, not what my culture says. I reject post-modernism and modernism – I reject liberalism and conservatism – I reject socialism and capitalism – until any of these prove themselves to line up with what the Bible says, according to study and prayer that I have to do for myself and can’t expect anyone else to do for me.

    To drive it home, I reject what Nic Paton says AND what you say, I reject what Michael Anthony and Brannon Howse says – until I am convinced, through scripture and reason, that what these people are saying IS what God is saying through His Word, the Bible, and through His Holy Spirit who lives in me and guides me into all truth.

    But how do I reject it? I do it in the context of relationships and discussion. I don’t do it in the context of bulldozing my way through debates and always needing to be right like our dear bishop Sprong did in that recent post on your blog. I’ll do it with love, respect and without compromising on truth. I’ll do it in the context of being honest and open, passionate and charitable, unsuspicious of anyone’s motives but questioning what they say, teachable but only open to the Holy Spirit and the Bible to ultimately convince me.

    Do you agree that my questioning at your blog around your beliefs, Amanda’s or Michael Anthony’s is just as valid as my questioning at Emergent Africa around what Nic Paton or Roger Saner believes? Do you think I should automatically agree with what you or Michael says just because you or he claims that they preach the gospel? Surely not. If people want to make claims that this or that is from the Bible and that they preach the true gospel, they have the responsibility of proving it.

    At the moment, I remain unconvinced that capitalism is biblically sound in its entirety. I am not wrong before God or before Michael by asking questions of this and discovering what the Bible says for myself. Michael hasn’t really proved it from scripture up to this point, and the burden of proof really is on him to do so since I am not making any particular stand on any type of economical system. I am simply asking him to take into consideration my concerns and tell me why capitalism – which he makes a stand for – he views to be so biblical.

    Paul reasoned with the jews, I am trying to reason at your blog. I don’t know why my reasoning is suddenly (and again) seen as trying to push some or other strange agenda or find another answer to what the Bible says.

    The problem with writing this rather than being able to speak to you about this on the phone is that my tone is not obvious. It is not a condescending tone, or an attacking tone. It is more in the lines of honesty and frustration that my motives are constantly questioned without any reasonability in doing so.

    At any rate, this whole capitalism debate is not really adding any value. I’m hoping that Michael produces some sources for further reading, and then I’m planning on thanking him for the discussion and bowing out of it.

    Many thanks
    Ryan

    ————-

    from: DiscerningTheWorld
    to: Ryan Peter
    date: 9 November 2009 13:47
    subject: Re: Response to your latest post

    Ryan, I am happy with your answer. All I wanted was for you to be honest. To beat around the bush is a waste of time. I do not see what you say as an attack.

    Since when is airing your views attacking someone? I think I have said this before, in countless times, not just to you, but to others as well. However stealing someones name and writing disgusting things about them, I consider a personal attack. When someone curses me that ‘god’ blinds me I see as a personal attack. When I am asked over and over and over again where I live I see that as a personal attack. When you physically hurt someone, when you go out of your way to make a person feel uneasy, call them names – that is an attack. I pray tell you can see the difference.

    But this is actually all about Jesus Christ the Son of God, when someone speaks horrible things about Jesus Christ it hurts ME, because I love Him, He is my Saviour, my King. He is the ONE who looks after me in these perilous times. I could not care what you say about me personally or anyone else for that matter. As a little human being though, we, you, I, everyone has feelings, but do we go out and physically hurt someone, go out of our way to insult them? No. And it’s very obvious when one is just verbalising a disagreement with someone or going out of their way to be nasty!

    This has nothing to do with tone in writing. You can read the Bible in a raging voice, monotone or joyous voice all the way through; the message might sound different but it’s still the same message no matter how someone tries to change it or make it sound.

    Speaking your mind about what you believe to someone else is not an attack.

    And I am not saying you did these things above. You did apologise for however siding with those at EmergingAfrica, FutureChurch and DiscernamentalistMafia websites when they did these things to me and I accepted that when you said sorry for taking their side you meant it.

    So I am going to make this email public, because you said I can. Including my reply.

    Thank you Ryan for finally saying what you REALLY believe. You have spent many a comment dodging the question, agreeing, when you actually didn’t. I have not wavered, one minute agreeing and then disagreeing or ‘agreeing to disgaree’. You reject what we say, cool. Not our problem. Just as I reject what you say. Cool. Not your problem. And even though you reject what Nic Paton says and you reject what I say, I hope you can tell the difference between what he says and I say. If you have learnt anything from all of this I hope it’s that. At least it’s something for me to smile about as I worry about you.

    I believe that I and others have spoken the Gospel to you, given you ample information to research, given you ample to think about and quoted scripture accurately, so what I needed to do is done.

    You say you will let the Holy Spirit convince you. Then let Him convince you. I have told you many a time I am not here to convince you. If you are really seeking the truth you will find it. I pray you do.

    Deborah

    ————-

    To everyone else,

    If you want to comment with more reading material as requested please post comments, scripture, links to relevant sources and thoughts. Other comments regarding this entire conversation will be allowed, too a point of course. Comments to Ryan asking him questions will be pointless as he won’t be replying, but comments about certain points he has made will be allowed. If Ryan does decided to comment he can.

    Remember that many are reading this blog who will benefit from the info posted here.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ryan

    PS, the issue is not about capitalism being biblical or not, we never said it was biblical, but as the world stands right now, it’s all we have – because what is coming Ryan is not what you think it’s going to be or could be as per your dreams and hopes (you have been indoctrinated with) for the future.

    There is NO MIDDLE ground right now – at this moment, at this point in time, in this so called wonderful little world of ours between what you want and what is going to happen. Why, because you actually have no choice in the matter as to what they are going to bring your way. What are you going to buy or sell when you OWN NOTHING to barter with?

    What the REAL issue is here is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as a whole being torn apart and thrown away. If one was to start with your very first comment (not on this article but another of the many you have commented on) it was to defend the Emergents and Amahoro and the interfaith movement.

    You might think you are making a giant leap here to side step your initial argument for coming here in the first place, but you can’t because everyone can read and it’s really not difficult to follow the ‘ecumenical dialogue’ throughout this entire blog. There is no middle ground to any of this, you either believe in Jesus Christ and follow Him or you follow the way the world is going.

    And no the ‘Christ’ of the Catholics is not Jesus Christ of scripture. So the answer the the question I asked you is: Catholicism is NOT Christian.

  • Michael Anthony

    Ryan Peter,

    You will quickly come to realize that I, personally, am not ‘open-minded’. I can safely assume that the regular posters on this site are not open-minded either, neither do they have a proclivity to ‘discuss’ things for the sake of discussion. You will quickly find that they have a range of unwavering, unbending absolutes. ‘Rightly dividing the word of truth’ means coming to a definite conclusion, not another discussion. The finer details may be smoothed and readjusted over time but the absolutes remain.

    Discernment ministries started as a counter balance to the incredible momentum that apostasy has gained over recent years. You will generally find two camps of Christians (there are way more but for the sake of simplification); those that are in anticipation of Christ’s eminent return and those that are not. Those that are expecting his coming, as direct result, see the foretold apostasy of 2 Thessalonians that comes to smother the warning of our Lord’s return. Apostasy has come in such subtle forms that it will take pages to outline them.

    The same way that Israel missed the first coming or their Messiah – even with all the scriptures and prophecies with ‘to-the-day’ accuracy available to them – the church is now in danger of missing his return. Even though they are forewarned…

    Which means that the primary purpose of this site – from my vantage point – is to alert Christians to the encroaching apostasy; discernment type ministries are usually a minority within a minority.

    It is extremely painful to watch the body of Christ being led into seductions that suffocate the simplicity of the Gospel. Worst of all I personally can see the eschatological, prophetic pattern taking unmistakable shape in our world…and yet so many deny it(the death of the free market being one of them). (I personally am indebted to sound biblical scholars who have over the years pointed many things out to me, there is no way any single person can come up with a balanced worldview and sound biblical knowledge all by himself).
    Not to say that I personally know everything, not even close. On the contrary, I am acutely aware that if I was deceived before and I can easily be deceived again. Without the Holy Spirit guiding one into all Truth we are all helpless and rudderless. See this site as just another contribution to exposing the unbiblical and extra-biblical practices in the modern day church.

    Maybe you don’t realise but by outlining yourself as being the one more ‘honest and open, passionate and charitable’ and prepared to ‘discuss’ things you have put on your high stilt shoes. And in there you have ‘without compromising the truth’ for extra measure. Yet you are ‘asking questions’ (do you see a contradiction?). Not compromising the truth means you have already been fully persuaded of it.

    As concerning the free-market; this is Christian worldview fundamentals, not advanced Christianity. I have no burden of proof to prove anything to you nor am I responsible for defending my case any more than I have already done. You can draw your own conclusions, do your own research.

    What I am also fully persuaded of is that is the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding you into all truth you will arrive at the same worldview and the same realization of the perilous hour we are in, as do the the rest of us. Those two aspects open up a whole can of worms. The finer details may differ from person to person, that’s fine and perfectly Ok.

    I personally believe that things are going to get whackier and whackier in the modern day church – maybe then the true believers still stuck in some of these institutions will finally realise the times they are living in when it gets to such absurd levels.

    I did serve under a Pastor who every single week warned his church of the deception out there, in bone crunching detail. It was also one of the few churches that prayed for Israel from the pulpit. He preached with biblical (double-edged – law & gospel) accuracy. Expositional teaching, line by line, verse by verse – the whole counsel of God. Every member of that church had a very high degree of biblical depth of discernment, they had been well taught and discipled. Yet they were all encouraged to check things out for themselves.

    I miss that church…

    If every church was like that there would be no such thing as a discernment ministry. Unfortunately someone has to do the work that should actually be done from the pulpit.

  • Michael Anthony

    Maybe I should reword a paragraph in my last post in case it comes out as arrogant.

    ‘If we all come to similar conclusions and the same biblical absolutes, the same Spirit is leading leading us. Either that or we are all (that see things the same way) are being deluded by the same source. But we cannot all be led of the same spirit and come to radically different conclusions.’

    Hmm, still not quite there – but you get the jist.

  • Hey guys,

    Just wanted to thank you guys for all your responses here :)

    And also for your email, Deborah. I do appreciate you guys taking the time.

    Thanks!!

    Ryan

  • Oh, and your email too Amanda. It really looks like some great reading and I really appreciate you sending me those pointers! :) Ryan.

  • Amanda

    Amen, Michael.

    Ryan

    Either Jesus Christ is Lord and your Savior or you can remain best buddies with the world.

    “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:34-37)

  • cecilia

    so it’s time out Ryan? until you discover another topic….
    I echo Amanda’s last comment ….

    Michael, thanks 4 your last (long) post, it helped me 2 have a clearer understanding about my believes in God’s Word.
    cecilia

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