Benson and Poonen Dishonesties

In our so-called enlightened age of reason, one of the most dangerous mortal sins you dare not do is to tell someone to their face they are liars or are lying. I realized this again when Paul Benson, the author of A Bucket Full of Holes! Solid Proof the Pre-Trib Theory is False,” reprimanded me for calling one of his supra knowledgeable anti-Pretribulation gurus Zac Poonen a liar.

It all started when I read an article Benson had written on Zac Poonen some time ago, which he entitled “The Church, The Tribulation, and The Great Falling Away.” Paul Benson’s adoration of Zac Poonen falls a nano-millimeter short of praise and worship. He wrote:

I don’t know that I could possibly recommend a more insightful and balanced ministry than that of brother Zac Poonen. His teachings on Christian doctrine in general, and the eschatology in particular presented in the following video, are in excellent harmony with the Scriptures. He, a former ‘pre-tribber’, left behind that erroneous teaching for the very same reason I did. He could not find it in the Bible though he searched for it diligently.

The Word of God was speaking no such thing to him. The only place he was hearing it was from the pulpit! Please take time to listen to this man of God warn of the deceptions associated with the Return of our Lord being taught today by Christians who have been deceived by seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. (Emphasis added).

Indeed, please take time to watch the video and experience first-hand how to go about lambasting doctrines of devils and their lies (in this case, the Pretribulation Rapture) whilst they (Benson and Poonen) themselves exuberantly defend and promulgate Satan’s lies.

Please bear in mind that Jesus Christ Himself said that Satan is the father of all lies, every single one of them, and, therefore, may not in any circumstances be excused or tolerated. As you may see from the following passage, Jesus never beat around the bush.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

Here now is the video Paul Benson encourages you to view, and please listen carefully to see if you can notice the lie coming from his lips in the very first sentence he utters during the first 43 seconds.

Were you able to spot the lie? To make it easier, here again, is what Zac Poonen said:

Today I wanna speak to you about a word which is never found in the Old Testament but is found frequently in the New Testament which means it’s a distinctively new covenant word. And It will surprise you what it is. It’s the word “tribulation.” Have you ever thought of that as a new covenant word?

We all make mistakes because we are all fallible human beings. This is probably the understatement of the year. However, there is one thing that angers me very much, and that is when “Christians” cover-up lies of well-known preachers just because they have “insightful and balanced ministries.”

Insightful and balanced ministries, personalities of renown, spiritual celebrities and brothers and sisters in Christ have never been and will never be the litmus tests for truth. God’s Word and his Word alone is the litmus test for truth. Whatever anyone says that is not in harmony with God’s Word must be rejected outright because all lies come from the father of lies, Satan himself.

My most natural response, whenever I am confronted with Satan’s lies, is to retort in writing or personally, simply because, to me, deception and especially deliberate deception, is the most contemptible thing imaginable. Jesus Himself regarded deception so intensely despicable that He could say to the Pharisees:

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. (Luke 11:52)

I wrote the following comment on Paul Benson’s site “Let’s Get it Right.” To my surprise, he posted it with one edit. He edited out the Scriptures I used to prove to him that Zac Poonen was lying when he said “Today I wanna speak to you about a word which is never found in the Old Testament but is found frequently in the New Testament which means it’s a distinctively new covenant word. And It will surprise you what it is. It’s the word “tribulation.”

Zac Poonen is not telling you the truth, but a lie. He asserts that the word “tribulation” never appears in the Old but only in the New Testament.

In fact, the word “tribulation” appears three times in the Old Testament: When thou art in tribulation and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (Deu 4:30). Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more. Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation. (Jdg 10:13-14) 

These two passages refer to Israel’s end-time seven-year tribulation which prove that it is indeed Jacob’s Trouble and not the Church’s trouble or tribulation.

The other passage relates to King David’s tribulation when King Saul and his men pursued him and tried to kill him. 

And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation. (1 Samuel 26:24). 

Mr. Benson-the-Bucket-Full-of-Holes, I urge you to make doubly sure that whatever you or your fundi say can indeed be substantiated by God’s Word.

Let me remind you what you wrote in your book:  A Bucket Full of Holes. 

It is absolutely amazing the lengths folks will go to in order to fabricate various proofs, or twist alternate renderings out of verse, to provide support for their theory. Much of this book deals with debunking those cagey ‘proofs’ and showing them to be unworkable. All in all I think you will find much to ponder in these pages. So let’s engage that safeguard of critical examination and take a thorough look at all the various facets of pre-trib theory, and see if there really is any reason we should be believing in such a concept.” – Paul Benson. 

You are guilty of your own indictment. How can we trust you and your fundi when you refuse to remove the beam from your own eyes?

He responded as follows:

Hi Tom; I caught that statement also; but I would caution against such an attitude of accusation and mistrust of Bro. Poonen’s (or my own ministry) over his words. Those words are easily explainable; and I think he deserves a bit more grace than you seem to be willing to give him. 

As I understand it Brother Poonen and those associated with his ministry use the New American Standard Bible for their study and preaching. Although I strongly advise my readers to use only the KJV due to the errors and deletions I have discovered to be prominent in ALL modern versions; I do not discredit the preaching or ministry of any who do chose to use them. Brother Poonen was not lying or being deceptive with what he was saying.

The word ‘tribulation does NOT occur in the Old Testament in the NASB. Brother Poonen is a humble and faithful man of God; and I am sure that if any pointed out to him the word tribulation does occur 3 times in the O.T. in the KJV (or others) he would gladly amend his statement to reflect that fact.

But be that as it may; it does not alter the validity of his comments concerning the difference between God’s dealings with man in either the O.T. or N.T. era; nor the validity of his message on the incorrectness of pre-trib theory. 

He was not being cagey, twisting Scripture to make false claims, nor was he fabricating ‘proofs’ (practices I can clearly show evident in pre-trib preaching and teaching!). Your insinuation Brother Poonen was lying, and his entire teaching was untrue just because you found a point you thought you could discredit him on is unfounded (and quite telling). 

The truth remains that the pre-trib rapture teaching is a provably false concept. It is an unbiblical creation of man that disregards the truths that are plainly and clearly stated in the Bible; and exalts instead man’s wayward notions about the end-time scenario that have no foundation in the Word of God! 

I am sorry you have chosen to embrace that fable rather than the expressly stated truths of the Scriptures. May the Lord lead us all into his perfect truth; Paul Benson

So, according to Post-tribulation and Pre-wrath aficionados, you may lie, and that without compunction, when your hellish hatred of the cursed Pre-tribulation Rapture needs to be satisfied by your desperate wickedness (Jeremiah 17:9).

The only thing needed to set things right (pun intended) is to throw your best spiritual gurus’ holy credential in your face and everything is hunky-dory. As Paul Benson would probably say, “Let’s get it Right” to allow our revered preachers to use the NASB and lie as much as they please.”

Guess what? Paul Benson refused to post my follow-up answer.

I am pretty sure Poonen has a KJV Bible and should have made sure what it and other versions of the Bible say before making such a claim. I am sure you will agree there can never be two contradicting truths.

Only one can be true which automatically makes the contradiction of that truth a lie. What else can you call it other than a lie? For instance, you do not only call the Pretribulation Rapture a lie, but a lie from the pit of hell. I cautioned you against such an attitude of accusation and mistrust of God from Isaiah 5:20, but you just brushed it off as if it was nothing and of no concern of yours. 

So, it’s OK to accuse God of lies from the pit of hell but a mortal sin to accuse a Bro who wilfully and deliberately spreads a lie. “He was not being cagey,” you said. Really? Any Bible scholar who searches out the truth will always, I repeat ALWAYS, at least consult with the KJV because he knows it is very dangerous to deceive others. 

You wrote:”Brother Poonen was not lying or being deceptive with what he was saying. The word ‘tribulation does NOT occur in the Old Testament in the NASB. Brother Poonen is a humble and faithful man of God; and I am sure that if any pointed out to him the word tribulation does occur 3 times in the O.T. in the KJV (or others) he would gladly amend his statement to reflect that fact.

But be that as it may; it does not alter the validity of his comments concerning the difference between God’s dealings with man in either the O.T. or N.T. era; nor the validity of his message on the incorrectness of pre-trib theory.”In fact, the word “tribulation” in the Old Testament verifies to perfection how God aims to deal with his people the Jews during the seven-year tribulation.

The authors of Deuteronomy and Judges could not possibly have referred to the Church as we know it today. Therefore, the use of “tribulation” in those passages are, as I said before, Old Testament predictions of how God is going to deal with Israel (not the Church) during the seven-year tribulation.

Hence the designation “Jacob’s Trouble.” Allow me to remind you of your own words in your book, “A Bucket Full of Holes” “It is my hope people would realize how deceived we have been by the teachings of man; and thus be convinced of the need to embrace the corrective apparatus of proper Bible study; looking for the true meaning of verses of Scripture through studying them in the passages of their origin.

I believe this practice will ultimately lead to a similar belief structure as I have; for that has been the source of mine. And so much better to get there on efforts of your own, and not just because of what others, or even myself, have taught. I am definitely fallible; but God’s Word is not. We need to verify whether people are preaching the same meaning for Bible verses as what you would get reading them in context.

This practice of critical appraisal destroys the majority of false teaching; and will prove to be a valuable defense. ‘Proof texts’ that are snippets of Scripture taken out of context are the basic building blocks of all pseudo-Christian false teaching. And these false teachings are not only damaging and defiling, but also quite divisive.” Yet, now you make excuses for a fallible man like Zac Poonen? Is that the way you apply your own rules and regulations?

If you caught the statement also, as you said, why didn’t you warn others about his error? Or is Brother Poonen’s status and esteem as a humble and faithful man of God more important than God’s truth?

Brother Peter was also a humble and faithful man of God, but Paul openly and publicly rebuked him for his error (sin). Is Brother Poonen any better than Peter? I have proved to you again and again that you do not heed your own indictments but regularly fail to remove the beam out of your own eye.

By the way, why did you edit out the passages I quoted from Scripture? Is that the way you propose to defend your doctrines by not allowing your readers to study and understand Scripture? 

You wrote: “I am sure that if any pointed out to him the word tribulation does occur 3 times in the O.T. in the KJV (or others) he would gladly amend his statement to reflect that fact.” 

I suggest that you contact Bro Poonen as soon as you can and ask him to publicly admit that he made a mistake and did not willfully try to deceive the body of Christ. You may even buy a KJV Bible for him and publicly present it to him as the only trustworthy English translation of God’s Word.

If Zac Poonen was to publicly admit that he misrepresented the Word of God by his use of the NASB instead of the KJV, which uses the word “tribulation,” he would have had to admit that the seven-year tribulation is, in essence, a Jewish phenomenon and does not in any which way possible refute the Pre-tribulation Rapture.

In fact, he will have to admit that the word “tribulation” is not a new covenant term, as he says, but a fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy in regard to the seven-year tribulation. Nonetheless, their argument, which one may call “the absenteeism syndrome,” and which claims ad infinitum that this or that word, or this or that doctrine, do not appear in the Bible, is so typical of false teachers.

How can you expect them to believe that the word “tribulation” also appears in the Old Testament when they consistently argue that the Pretribulation Rapture is not in the Bible because the once-off and simultaneous resurrection and rapture of the just at Jesus Christ’s Second Advent is the final proof of the pudding?

Imagine Paul having said to the Thessalonian Christians, “Behold I shew a mystery” and they all answered him by saying, “Brother Paul, don’t be silly and please do not claim you are telling us a mystery. We already know your so-called mystery from the Old Testament scriptures.

The mystery is the resurrection of the just at the end of the age when Christ Jesus returns at his Second Advent to the earth. Even Job, one of the oldest books in the Bible tells us this mystery when he says, ‘And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.’ (Job 19:26).

According to Paul Benson of “A Bucket Full of Holes” fame (or is it infamy?), you may tell a lie and deceive others when you use the NASB version because the word “tribulation” does not appear in the Old Testament in the NASB.

So, if some saints in the audience have their KJV’s opened while Benson’s guru, Zac Poonen tells them the word “tribulation” does not appear in the Old Testament because it is uniquely a new covenant word, they must humbly submit to his lies because his NASB overrides and surpasses their KJV Bible. Oh OK, what about the word “distress” which, believe it or not, does appear in the NASB’s Old Testament. Strong’s concordance defines “tribulation” as follows:

tsar tsârtsar, tsawrFrom H6887; narrow; (as a noun) a tight place (usually figuratively, that is, trouble); also a pebble (as in H6864); (transitively) an opponent (as crowding): – adversary, afflicted (-tion), anguish, close, distress, enemy, flint, foe, narrow, small, sorrow, strait, tribulation, trouble.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Do you see that, Mr. Benson-the-bucket-full-of-holes-little-liar? The word “distress,” which just happens to be used in the NASB has the very same etymological meaning as the word “tribulation.”

How nice of you to say, “Brother Poonen was not lying or being deceptive with what he was saying. The word ‘tribulation does NOT occur in the Old Testament in the NASB. Brother Poonen is a humble and faithful man of God, and I am sure that if any pointed out to him the word tribulation does occur 3 times in the O.T. in the KJV (or others) he would gladly amend his statement to reflect that fact.”

Wow! I never knew that humility and faithfulness were determined by the degree of lies and deceit that oozes from false teacher’s pure, untainted and holy lips? What is so humble about telling lies? What kind of faithfulness is entrenched in deception? You must be kidding me.

Let’s unpack this a little more to understand why anti-Pretribulation warriors of the Benson and Poonen caliber are happy to defend false doctrine, even to the extent that they are unashamedly and intentionally prepared to lie without blinking their eyelids in the twinkling of an eye, and in their efforts to validate their hatred of Jesus Christ’s imminent return at the Pretribulation Rapture.

How can you trust them and their doctrinal views on the Rapture when they can’t even get it right (pun intended) to discern with biblical accuracy that the word “tribulation” (“distress”) appears in the Old Testament? Their mathematical tomfooleries look something like this.

OT NASB – “tribulation” (distress) = truth (not a lie).

OT KJV + “tribulation” = truth (not a lie).

But wait, it gets even better as Poonen continues to define the word “tribulation.” About nine minutes into the video, Poonen says that “tribulation throughout Scripture is generally always referring to man troubling Christians, because of their faith: Man persecuting Christians for their faith. This is what we need to understand, clearly. They (men) will deliver you into tribulation and they will kill you; birth pains.”

In compliance with Paul Benson’s request to be more gracious in my apologetics and not to call Zac Poonen a liar or deceptive, I shall refer to his mistakes as little white lies. However, white lies are extremely more dangerous because they come from the same source, the father of all lies (John 8:44) who, as an angel of light, knows how to don his lies in light so that we may call them little white lies, instead of lies and deception.

As you may recall Poonen said that “tribulation throughout Scripture is generally always referring to man troubling Christians, because of their faith.” Let’s don our Berean caps to see whether this is the truth or a lie. In the book of Romans, Paul says:

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Romans 2:9). Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; (2 Thessalonians 1:5-6). Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. (Revelation 2:22).

Only those who are deliriously moon-struck with images of what a Christian should look like will say that the three examples quoted above refer to Christians and not unbelievers.

Moreover, they will fight tooth and nail in trying to prove it is not God but men who perpetrate the tribulation in these passages. It again shows to what measures of deception many Christians are prepared to go to prove that their hatred of Jesus Christ’s return at the Pretribulation Rapture for his own, is justifiable and a curse from the pit of hell, as Paul Benson wrote in his book “A Bucket Full of Holes.” Allow me to remind you, Mr. Paul Benson, what you wrote on page 192 of your book.

A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin. (Proverbs 26:28). Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight. (Proverbs 12:22)

Why are the anti-Pretribulation cronies so easily disposed to lies, and then, when their lies are exposed, so deftly prone to devise all kinds of little white lies to cover up their dishonesties?

The main reason ex-Pretribulation aficionados lie so easily is that they must at all cost find a way to circumvent Revelation 3:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9, where God promises to keep his saints from the hour of temptation (his righteous judgments and wrath upon the entire world). What do they do to accommodate these two passages?

Oh, that’s easy, they move God’s wrath either to some time between the middle and the end of the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Pre-wrath Rapture) or to the close of the seven-year tribulation (Day of the Lord; Post Tribulation Rapture).

The aridest consequence of both these views is that the seven-year tribulation (Daniel’s Seventieth Week) must be divided into first, man’s wrath and then, God’s wrath.

This explains why Zac Poonen and Paul Benson need to lie about the meaning of the word “tribulation” which supposedly “throughout Scripture is generally always referring to man troubling Christians because of their faith.”

If Zac Poonen’s assertion that “tribulation throughout Scripture is generally always referring to man troubling Christians for their faith,” we would have to conclude that the tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 has already existed for over 2000 years.

It also would have meant that God never afflicts mankind with tribulation because it is supposedly a man-to-man troubling phenomenon because of one’s faith. It is by peace that Antichrist is going to destroy many (Daniel 8:25) and not particularly for the believers’ faith because his seven-year peace treaty will be with the unbelieving Jewish nation.

This alone proves again that the seven-year tribulation does not involve the Church (Bride of Christ) but national Israel who God is going to prepare for his Second Advent at the end of the seven-year tribulation.

Part of his preparation is to allow his people (God the Father’s wife) to commit adultery with other gods (Antichrist and the false prophet), as she had done so many times in the past, for one final time (John 5:43), and to open their eyes to the deception they themselves had allowed to lead them astray when Antichrist sits as the abomination of desolation in the newly built temple in Jerusalem.

“For then,” Jesus said, “shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:21-22).

Note very carefully that neither the tribulation nor the great tribulation is by any means man troubling Christians for their faith. All flesh (unbelievers and those who will come to faith) will be subjected to tribulation, no matter what their faith is.

If like most adherents to the Pre-wrath and Post-tribulation positions would say, they used to be keen Pretribbers because the pulpits from whence they heard it preached, convinced them of its validity and soundness, why did they abandon one of the grandest doctrines in the bible? “We could not find it in the Bible though we searched for it diligently,” is their most famous mantra when asked why they stopped believing in a Pretribulation Rapture.

My personal opinion is that they also diligently searched the Scriptures in pursuit of the word “Trinity” because the pulpits from whence they heard it, convinced them that God is One and yet three distinct Persons known as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

Did they abandon their belief in the Trinity because they diligently searched the Scriptures and failed to find the word “Trinity” in it? This example just shows how childish the argument of absenteeism really is.

It proves nothing. And so also the term “original sin” never appears in the Bible. Are they going to deny the fact of original sin because the words “original sin” are not found in the Bible? I don’t think so.

In addition to their puerile argument of absenteeism, whenever they cannot deny the appearance of key doctrinal words in the Bible, they shift into second gear which is to rehash the meaning of words that do appear in the Bible.

As we have already pointed out, “tribulation” is one of the words they dishonestly divided into two separate kinds of wrath – the wrath of man during the first 3 ½ years of the seven-year tribulation and God’s wrath during the second 3 ½ years of the seven-year tribulation.

Another word they conveniently changed is the word “imminence.” However, this is enough, for now, to prove that the Pre-wrath and Post-tribulation supporters don’t care a hoot to pull lies out of their “Let’s Get it Right” hats to validate their heresies.

See all our articles on Rapture/Tribulation here.

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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

44 Responses

  1. Hi Rocco. The return of Jesus Christ for his own at the Rapture and the subsequent seven-year tribulation are NOT non-essential doctrines. Had it been non-essential God would never have sent the angel Gabriel to enlighten Daniel on Israel’s end time tribulation.

    And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Israel and not the church] and upon thy holy city [Jerusalem; the church or Bride of Christ does not have a holy city on earth], to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:20-24)

    This was prophesied to Israel and not the church. The following is a prophecy for the church.

    Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3).

    Lying to brothers and sisters in the Lord is not the correct way of showing your love for the Lord. What Poonen said about the word “tribulation” is a blatant lie and if he loves the Lord as you say, the least he could do is to set right his deceptive lie. Did I say anything derisive about his character? That’s another lie. It is called bearing false witness. I merely exposed his lie. I never said anything about his character.

    Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (Colossians 3:9)

    You wrote:

    It seems that anyone who disagrees with Tom is a deceiver, antichrist etc.

    I never once called Poonen an Antichrist in my article. That’s another one of your infamous lies. You and Poonen seem to be happy and at ease with lies (John 8:44).

  2. Rocco Petitti says:

    Sorry Tom, you are wrong about Poonen no matter how many verses you quote. Poonen does not owe you an explanation but like scripture says, if you have a problem with a brother confront him. If you think Zac is so off base and a lier misleading people then contact him and mention your concerns otherwise you are just another Christian who is defaming a brother in Christ. He and I are what Christ say we are not what you say we are. Talk to Zac tell him of his errors before you post it to the internet. I think that would be scriptural since you seem to be all about that.

  3. Rocco, you are misinterpreting Scripture. What Poonen said, he said in public and yet you expect me to contact and confront him in private? Paul advised Timothy to rebuke those who sin before all the others so that they may fear (1 Timothy 5:20). You don’t seem to have any respect for God’s Word and would rather not use it to rebuke someone who sinned (deceived others with his lies) for the sake of Poonen’s public esteem.

    Am I now trying to win the favor and approval of men, or of God? Or am I seeking to please someone? If I were still trying to be popular with men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. (Galatians 1:10)

    You seem to be more concerned about Poonen who is defaming Christ in public by misrepresenting his Word than anything else. For you it’s alright when people like Ponnen defames Christ’s Name in public but immediately up in arms when someone rebukes him for his defamatory misinterpretation. What is wrong with you? First you say Poonen does not owe me an explanation and yet I must contact him personally. He certainly owes Jesus Christ an explanation.

  4. Rocco Petitti says:

    [DELETED by DTW]

  5. Veeta says:

    People like you will rot in hell. People make little little mistakes like at the 43th seconds of the video! What’s wrong in making mistakes in trivial questions? That shows how Pharisaical are you! You are judging Brother Poonen on these aspects and trying to call him a liar? Have you or had you seen his life long sufferings, sacrifices and failures he went through to establish a true immaculate Christian congregation? Studying a bible is a research itself unlike other books. It has so much information that grows day by day, as you read them. Stop undermining and putting down the men and women of God and find some other good work to do. Continue persecuting the chosen children of God, your end will not be so different from Haman in the bible!

  6. Veeta, do you believe the word “tribulation” is a new covenant word and never once appears in the Old Testament? Then you too are a liar. Anything said contrary to what the Bible teaches, no matter who teaches it, albeit a man of God who has suffered for his faith like Corrie the Boom, is lying. To call any kind of villainy against Jesus Christ’s return for his own at the Pre-trib Rapture a mere mistake, is heavily deceived and a liar. Why are you more concerned about Zack Poonen’s public image while you don’t seem to care about his audacity to make Jesus Christ out to be a liar who supposedly never once used the word tribulation in the Old Testament? Is Poonen more important to you than Jesus Christ and his return at the Pre-trib Rapture? (Galatians 1:10).

    And you’d better repent of your curse “People like you will rot in hell” because you are misrepresenting the God of the Bible who said, “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” (Ezekiel 33:11). You’d better turn from you evil of getting pleasure from sending us to rot in hell. You are playing with fire. REPENT!

  7. PAM says:

    Hello Tom,

    ‘If Christ’s victory is dependant upon us, then one may as well believe that our salvation is also dependant on use’.

    if you believe in free will, as I think you do, then ultimately our salvation must depend on it and therefore on us. Is that a fair assessment?

    Best wishes.

  8. PAM says:

    Hello Tom,

    Perhaps this comment is more on point than my previous one. I did spot Zak Poonen’s error straightaway as I have a NASB translation and checked it out. Moreover, depending on which translation one consults the mentions of tribulation in the OT seem to vary from three to zero. This alone should make one wary of building a case on such a weak foundation.

    ‘Only those who are deliriously moon-struck with images of what a Christian should look like will say that the three examples quoted above refer to Christians and not unbelievers’.

    What do you mean by moon-struck? Do you mean lunatic or mentally deranged in some way or something else perhaps?

    I noticed in one of your examples that you refer to 2 Thess 1:5-6.(Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you) [parentheses and emphases mine] and checked it out.

    It would appear that tribulation and trouble are the noun and verb forms of the same same Greek word which suggests that tribulation can be meted out on believers by unbelievers and that God will mete out judgement on them in recompense, unless I have misunderstood your point.

    In respect of your reference to Rev 3:10. It’s difficult for me to see the rapture at all here. Are you interpreting Rev 3:10 allegorically in some way?

    A final question for now. Do you think the tribulation and the day of the Lord are synonymous?

    Best wishes

  9. Your effort to draw a comparison between “Christ’s victory” and man’s “free-will,” to prove that free-will is a misnomer, is inappropriate. One of the greatest victories God ever procured in the history of mankind was when He miraculously led Israel out of their bondage in Egypt. In fact, it prefigures the victory of Christ on the cross centuries later. Yet, God had to give Israel a choice between “life” and “death” during their sojourn in the desert. (Deuteronomy 30:17-19). Do you really think God would have given them this choice if they had no free-will?

    If salvation were dependent on the election, predestination, and foreordination of free-will-less zombies who cannot understand, respond, and believe the Gospel of their own accord, Christ’s victory would have been a complete failure. Why? Because free-will and love cannot be separated. Don’t you know that God made man in his own image which includes the freedom to choose? Are you married? Assuming you are, did your husband force you to marry him, or did you choose to marry him because you love him? If love was the deciding factor in your decision to get married, why do you doubt God’s integrity to grant his creatures the same kind of choice, or do you believe as do the Calvinists that He unconditionally clobbers his elect over their heads and then limitedly drags them to his den like the ancient barbarians?

  10. You wrote:

    Perhaps this comment is more on point than my previous one. I did spot Zak Poonen’s error straightaway as I have a NASB translation and checked it out. Moreover, depending on which translation one consults the mentions of tribulation in the OT seem to vary from three to zero. This alone should make one wary of building a case on such a weak foundation.

    Your observation that the zero appearance of a word in the Bible is a weak foundation on which to build a case is spot on. In fact, a child in grade 1 will be able to tell that a non-existent word is completely imperceptible and, therefore, unreadable, and an unreadable imperceptibility cannot possibly be interpreted in any way because it is non-existent. This is precisely why Jack Poonen proclaimed that the word “tribulation” is never once found in the Old Testament which allegedly makes it a new covenant word. Even the assumption that a single appearance, or a second, or a three-times appearance of a word in the Bible is a weak foundation to build a case, is equally wrong.

    There are many words in the Bible that appear only once in the Bible. There are between 300 and 400 of them known as hapax legomena, the meaning of which in Greek is “only once.” Are we going to affirm that the Gospel of God is built on a weak foundation because some words appear only once in the Bible? Just because a word appears only once in the Bible, does not mean that word is less significant or less inspired than any other word that appears many more times in Scripture. To affirm that the minority appearance of a word or words in the Bible determines the quality of the foundation on which to build a case is the worst kind of eisegesis there is.

    I will answer the rest of your questions later.

  11. PAM says:

    Hello Tom,

    ‘Your effort to draw a comparison between “Christ’s victory” and man’s “free-will,” to prove that free-will is a misnomer, is inappropriate’.

    I had hoped that it would be a straightforward line of enquiry rather than an attempt to present an iron clad proof that free-will is a misnomer. Anyway, I am concluding from your response that you regard my assessment as unfair, or inappropriate if you prefer.

    ‘Do you really think God would have given them this choice if they had no free-will?’

    It is difficult to me to see that because God presented the nation with choices that it had an innate ability to make the right ones. The record of Israel’s poor choices and the attending consequences is fairly impressive in spite of the people’s affirmation ‘All that the LORD hath spoken we will do’.

    ‘If salvation were dependent on the election, predestination, and foreordination of free-will-less zombies who cannot understand, respond, and believe the Gospel of their own accord, Christ’s victory would have been a complete failure’.

    By ‘believe the Gospel of their own accord’ are you suggesting that man does have some innate ability to believe the Gospel? Can the natural man receive the things of the Spirit even though they are foolishness unto him, can he know them when the scriptures assert he cannot because they are spiritually discerned? Can those in the flesh who cannot please God exercise faith without which it is impossible to please Him?

    ‘Are you married? Assuming you are, did your husband force you to marry him, or did you choose to marry him because you love him? If love was the deciding factor in your decision to get married, why do you doubt God’s integrity to grant his creatures the same kind of choice, or do you believe as do the Calvinists that He unconditionally clobbers his elect over their heads and then limitedly drags them to his den like the ancient barbarians?’

    I couldn’t resist a smile when I read this. I am a man, not a woman. PAM is an acronym comprising the initials of my full name (Phillip Alexander Millar). It’s easier for me than stating my full name.

    There were many factors in my decision to marry my wife including, but not limited to, love and her superlative spiritual characteristics. Anyway, I do not believe that ‘He unconditionally clobbers his elect over their heads and then limitedly drags them to his den like the ancient barbarians?’

    My own take on free-will is that man is free to exercise his will within the constraints that are placed upon it.

    Best wishes

  12. Let us begin with “My own take on free-will is that man is free to exercise his will within the constraints that are placed upon it.”

    Any constraint or limitation on free-will is not free-will. You cannot say to someone, you are free to choose whatever and however you wish, but you must choose within the parameters I have set for you. What kind of constraints are there in the choice between “life” and “death?” Would you, if you had been God, say to someone, “Listen up, you varmints, you have a choice between drinking a cool-aid or poison but you must choose poison because I have ordained you to do so.”?

    How could I have known you are a man? Many people whom I have debated on the internet like to write their names in capital letters. I also do not know how many other factors, other than a mutual love and her superlative spiritual attributes, you had to take into consideration before you decided to marry her. However, does she know about your “many factors” choice camaraderie? It is my humble opinion that she would have been ghastly disappointed if she had known that love was not the only factor that led you to tie the knot. Why do I say so? Well, wherever God says “love one another” He never meant that we should first make a list of factors and then tick them off one by one until we are satisfied that all of them are perfectly united in others. How boring can you get?

    Your reference to the “natural man” in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is so typical Calvinistic. Paul says, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17). Are you suggesting that the natural (unsaved) man is unable to understand salvation by hearing the Word of God and that only the spiritual man has that ability? Jesus Christ said that unless we believe like a child, we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That, to me, proves that even a child can understand and believe the elementary principle of salvation. No, the “things” in 1 Corinthians 2:10 are the “deep things” of God which, obviously only a born-again, spirit-filled believer can understand.

    Therefore, I maintain that your comparison between “Christ’s victory” on the cross and man’s “free-will,” to prove that free-will is a misnomer, is inappropriate’.

  13. Johnny Varghese says:

    Tidbit from Bible study 101:
    If you want to count the number of times a word (like tribulation) really occurs in the Bible, you need to check the Hebrew or Greek word rendered so, and then search for that Hebrew/Greek word. The same Hebrew/Greek word may be translated as tribulation, trial, distress, or praise sometimes, worship sometimes.

    Also, NT quotations of OT verses help provide equivalent Greek words for Hebrew words.

  14. Johnny Varghese. Touché, what you have said, proves that Poonen is wrong when he said the word “tribulation” never once appears in the Old Testament which makes it a new covenant word.

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