Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

Eternal Security -NOSASvsOSAS

Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

I have debated many people on the topic of eternal security among them atheists, Calvinists, Muslims, Afrikaner Israelites, Seventh Day Adventists, Sabbatarians, Charismatics and, believe it or not, even Christians.

None of them made such a profound impact on me than the one I had with a group of Christians who tried to convince a young man that he can lose his salvation. The young man actually believed that he had already lost his salvation and was so stricken with despondency, I thought he was on the verge of committing suicide.

During my conversation and attempts to convince him that a saint cannot lose his salvation, the other members of a well-known Bible forum attacked me head-on, accusing me of all kinds of things. I could sense that Satan was really doing his utmost to keep the young man in bondage to a lie so many Christians believe to be true.

By the grace of God, the dark cloud of misery and uncertainty lifted from the young man and he eventually knew for certain that he never lost his salvation. We must remember that our younger generation of brothers and sisters in the Lord are exposed to immense temptations and many of them do succumb to them.

The ensuing battle with Satan and his host can be so intense that the saint begins to contemplate suicide. “You call yourself a Christian. Look what you’ve done now. Look at you, you wretch. You’ve lost your salvation.” It is always a good thing to remind ourselves of these words:-

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

The mere thought that you are standing is proof that you may have already fallen. If you have, don’t remain there. Get on your knees, enter into the holy of holies through the blood of Christ and ask forgiveness (Hebrews 10:19-23). Then, get on your feet and continue to follow Christ Jesus. Why is Satan so keen to sow doubt in the hearts and minds of God’s saints?

His main purpose is to get you to distrust Jesus Christ, your only Saviour. If he can get you to turn your eyes away from Jesus where He is seated at the right hand of God and turn them inwardly to yourself, he has gained a foothold that can cause havoc in your life.

A brother in Christ, whose acquaintance I was privileged to make on Facebook, asked me to critique an article he had written on free-will. A comparatively large part of his article included his thoughts on eternal security. At first I was a little reluctant but quickly realized that Louis was a man of gentle persuasion who could throw and receive punches with dignity.

With his permission which he granted me without any hesitancy, I now present to you our little debate for you to make your choice for or against eternal security. Please choose your words with placid gentleness when you comment. Thank you.

The believer’s security

LOUIS: No other issue arising from Augustinianism/Calvinism is of wider interest today than that of “eternal security,” or perseverance of the saints (also called once ‘saved always saved’). True Calvinists still hold on to this 5th doctrine of TULIP as a logical part and conclusion of their theology.

Many who have abandoned or minimizing the other four doctrines, have generally held firmly on to this one, even when its logical foundations have been removed. In their minds it followed as a necessary conclusion from their view of divine sovereignty, predestination and unconditional election.

It is certain that the elect can never be lost. The mild Calvinistic position includes all those who have departed from strict Calvinism but who still hold to unconditional security for the believer. There are serious problems with this modified view.

TOM: I can assure you that my belief in eternal security is not some kind of residue of TULIP or any other Calvinistic doctrine. It is based entirely on the promises of God in Scripture. I wouldn’t call the Calvinist’s view of eternal security “Once Saved Always Saved.” I would rather refer to it as “Once allegedly Elected Always allegedly Elected.” Allow me to explain. True repentance involves a godly sorrow (sorrow approved by God when His Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment).

This happens when the sinner realizes that he/she is lost (bound for hell) and of his own volition comes to Jesus to seek forgiveness and redemption because he/she knows they desperately need a Saviour. “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

The elect cannot possibly know that they are sick and that they need a Physician to heal them. Dead men aren’t sick. They are dead and cannot possibly know that they are terminally ill.  (To a Calvinist “dead in sins and trespasses” means that the sinner is as dead as a corpse and completely unable to hear and respond to the Gospel Call. To substantiate this view they use the resurrection of Lazarus as an example of regeneration. Read here.)

I notice that you have failed to mention one of the most important passages in Scripture dealing with eternal security and that is 2 Corinthians 7:10 “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”

The truly converted sinner will never regret his or her conversion/repentance/salvation and turn his/her back on God, no matter how difficult the road ahead may be. Only those who had a “conversion” inspired by the sorrow of the world eventually turn their backs on God because they are not genuinely saved. They are usually the ones who say: “I used to be a Bible believing Christian but I no longer believe in God and His Son.”

Pharaoh had such a “conversion.” “And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.” (Exodus 9:27) “Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you.” (Exodus 10:16).

An unbeliever’s mere acknowledgement of sin means nothing. Pharaoh proved it. People do that every day. An unbeliever’s acknowledgment of sin without a conviction of being lost (hell-bound and deservedly so) cannot save. Jesus can only find and save sinners who know, realize and acknowledge that they are lost (Luke 19:10).

I usually ask Calvinists: “When were you convicted of judgment – before or after your monergistic regeneration?” They can’t answer: “Before regeneration” because a corpse cannot be convicted of anything. And they cannot answer: “after regeneration” because what’s the point in being convicted of judgement and hell when they have already been delivered from it? That’s preposterous. The only answer they can give, is the one a Calvinist once gave me:

The bible never says that God’s people were ever bound for hell, it says they were chosen “in Christ” before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). The conviction of sin is usually misinterpreted by God’s people to be the conviction that they are hell bound, the gospel explains to them that they are not, because of what Christ did FOR them.”

“Conviction of sin is the belief in the reality of sin in light of God’s holiness and perfection. Many of God’s children believe this to mean that they are going to hell. They are not. That is why they need to hear the good news of their salvation, so that they can believe it, rejoice in it, and profit from it.

The gospel doesn’t make their salvation true, their salvation IS TRUE and the gospel proclaims it to the Lord’s people who receive it by faith and profit from that understanding.”

So you see, Calvinists have always been Jesus Christ’s sheep, they’ve always been saved (God’s elect). They only need to be made aware that they are saved (elected) and live accordingly (perseverance of the saints). There is absolutely no difference between them and the Emerging Church who claims that Jesus already dwells mystically in sinners and they only need to be made aware of it.

Is this not perhaps the reason why Neo-Calvinists like John Piper and Mark Driscoll have penchants for the mystic practices in the Emerging Church? I’m no prophet but I predicted more than seven years ago that this was going to happen. Sadly, Total Depravity (Total Inability) deprives the Calvinist of true repentance and salvation.

They are deceived and don’t know it. I have tried for many years to figure out why they cling so tenaciously to John Calvin’s doctrines and have come up with two answers. They are deathly afraid to violate God’s sovereignty and the other reason is simply “The Mystery of Iniquity.” I, therefore, wouldn’t associate “Once Saved Always Saved” with “Once allegedly Elected Always allegedly Elected.”

Logical inconsistency

LOUIS: Logical inconsistency In his Institutes vol. 1, p. 8-9 Calvin makes a long statement which plainly means that laymen reading the Scriptures are to interpret them according to his doctrine. Jacobus Arminius discovered the same priority of doctrine at Leyden University.

Gomarus, the professor of New Testament studies, insisted that the Scriptures should always be interpreted according to the creed, while Arminius held to the Word of God as the final authority. The doctrine of security, then, was not derived from the Bible but from philosophical and logical considerations.

TOM: I beg to differ. If eternal security was derived from philosophical and logical considerations and not from the Bible, then we should consider the death and resurrection of Jesus (the very foundation and bedrock of eternal security) from a purely philosophical and logical angle instead of from the revelation given to us in the Bible.

If the death and crucifixion of Jesus is the bedrock/foundation of our salvation, which of course it is, then we need nothing else to secure our salvation, least of all philosophy. “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8). In fact, your entire discourse on the issue of eternal security is based purely on philosophical presuppositions. Your following statement proves this.

LOUIS: One cannot insist on unconditional eternal security of the believer, while neglecting or denying unconditional election and irresistible grace (See TULIP). When Calvinistic evangelicals preach the Biblical Gospel to all men and declare that people are genuinely free to receive or reject it; they are denying the Calvinistic concepts of unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace.

And when they say that once a person has repented and received Christ through a free, voluntary act of faith he is no longer free to renounce Christ through a voluntarily act of unbelief and disobedience into apostasy, they are taking a position unsupported by Calvinism, the Bible or sound reason.

TOM: Your train of thought is fallacious. You cannot assume that because TULIP says that unconditional election requires no free-will that it debunks free-will in unconditional eternal security. You seem to be saying that TULIP’s unconditional election is the only barometer by which eternal security must be assessed.

That’s a pure philosophical argument which, to my mind is, holds no water. To draw a parallel between two things just because the same word “unconditional” appears in both is not kosher. I have already proven to you above that the Calvinistic view of eternal security (“Once allegedly Elected, Always allegedly Elected”) is worlds apart from “Once Saved, Always Saved,” simply because the Calvinistic foundation for salvation is a false one.

The premise that If man is free to receive or renounce Christ’s death on the cross as the only means for his salvation, it follows that he is also free to renounce his salvation once he has been saved, is also fallacious. I have already shown earlier, that the truly repentant sinner who realized that he/she was lost without Jesus will never regret his/her salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Those who regret their “salvation” were never saved in the first place because they built their “redemption” on a false foundation. This happens frequently within the ranks of the Charismatic fraternity where health wealth and prosperity doctrines are put out as proof for one’s salvation.

When most do not experience what they’ve been told, they grow despondent, renounce God and turn their backs on Him. As you can see I tend to base my conclusion on biblical facts rather than on philosophical arguments.

LOUIS: The modern “eternal security people” are inconsistent when they declare that sinners are free to repent and exercise faith in Christ (through the aid of the Spirit), but once having been saved, they are no longer free to reject Him (through resisting the Spirit).

TOM: I have already dealt with your assertion in the previous paragraph. One more thought will suffice. You call the “Once Saved Always Saved” crowd the “modern ‘eternal security people.'” Is there any difference between Paul’s and the other apostles’ views on eternal security and the modern day “eternal security people?”

I don’t think so. Paul said: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” (2 Timothy 1:12). Paul uses the past tense, as you may know, not because he once believed and then fell into unbelief.

He was referring to the day in Ananias’ house in Damascus where he called on the Name of the Lord for his salvation. To him, and this should be the case with all the truly saved believers, faith is to commit your entire being – spirit, soul and body – into the hands of Jesus Christ on the basis that He has paid the penalty for all of your sins.

It was this commitment (the relinquishing of his own authority on his life) by faith alone that gave Paul the absolute assurance that Christ Himself would preserve him until that day. It ties in perfectly with what he says in Philippians 1: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6).

Was there any possibility that Paul could renounce his faith in Jesus Christ, turn his back on him and turn away? Absolutely! But I think the issue here is not whether he could renounce his faith but rather whether he wanted to, and the answer is a resounding “no” because he knew from the very outset into whose hands he committed his entire life.

May I ask you whether you would ever want to renounce your faith in Jesus Christ and turn your back on him never to return again? No? Why then would anyone else who’s had a true salvivc encounter with Jesus Christ even contemplate such a disastrous thing? Ah, of course, it is always the other person who loses his salvation and not I.

Some cliches of eternal security

LOUIS: Some cliches of the security doctrine To promote this doctrine, the mild Calvinists have made popular a number of brief statements “Once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son” This is not binding in a spiritual sense.

All believers were once children of the devil. If the analogy is binding, we must always remain so. Since children of the devil can become children of God, the analogy is obviously not binding. John 8:42, 44 and Ephesians 2:3 say that we were children of the devil and by nature children of wrath. If that cliche is true, that would prevent any unbeliever form ever becoming a believer and being saved.

TOM: Having been a child of the devil can hardly be used as an analogy against the “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine. If anyone, who is being held captive in the clutches of Satan, must remain there because of a manmade binding analogy “once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son,” then Satan is the omnipotent God and not YAHWEH.

Moreover, salvation would have then been a cruel hoax and YAHWEH the author of it. What did Jesus say to his disciples when they asked Him “Who then can be saved?” He said: “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:27). Nonetheless, is it possible with God to save someone without them having to put their trust in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross?

Doesn’t that limit God’s sovereignty and omnipotence? (Hebrews 11:6). Indeed, nothing is impossible with God but in his salvivic work He has sovereignly and omnipotently decided to accomplish his salvation – which has never been impossible with Him – through faith and faith alone. If faith could limit God’s omnipotence and sovereignty, we would again squarely be in the Calvinist camp and we don’t want to go there, do we?

If the analogy “once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son” could be applied to both God’s and Satan’s security systems, we would have to say that Satan’s security system is equal to or just as good as that of God and vice versa. Needless to say, that would be disastrous for God and a resounding and eternal victory for Satan.

As you yourself said “that would prevent any unbeliever from ever becoming a believer and being saved.” However, the millions upon millions of sinners who’d been saved throughout history prove beyond any doubt that not only is God’s salvation but also his security system magnanimously superior, greater and stronger than that of Satan. (Matthew 12:29; 1 John 3:8; Colossians 2:15).

The phrase “ex agorazo” is used several times in the New Testament and denotes Christ’s formidable and irreversible redemption. It conveys the meaning of someone going into a market place, purchasing slaves and taking them into his home never to sell them again.

While it is hypothetically possible that the analogies “once a child, always a child” and “once a son, always a son” may be applied to Satan because it is so easily applied by saints to God’s salvation and his preserving grace, the maxim “once saved, always saved” cannot possibly be used of Satan. It can only be applied to God.

Yes, it is true that we would have remained sons and daughters of Satan IF Jesus Christ never became flesh. Yes, if He hadn’t paid such a magnanimously high price for our deliverance from the clutches of Satan we would still have been Satan’s sons and daughters. Therefore, the notion that a saved saint can lose his salvation and forever remain a son or a daughter of Satan demeans the magnanimous salvation of Jesus Christ on the cross.

It would mean that Satan is stronger than Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice has satisfied God the Father for all eternity why wouldn’t it satisfy the saved sinner? Indeed, it does because he would never regret his salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10)

“A person who is once born cannot be unborn”

LOUIS: “A person who is once born can never be unborn. This is also a subtle way of convincing those who are not careful in their thinking. The Bible never uses the term “unborn,” for the opposite of being born is to die, not to be unborn. The Bible clearly teaches that one who has been born can die. Life does not end by “unbirth,” but by death.

A fire that is once kindled is never “unkindled,” but it can be quenched. A fish that is once caught is never “uncaught,” but it can be cast away as worthless. Likewise, a person who is once born can die, both spiritually and later physically. Nothing at all is proved by the fact that we do not use the term “unborn” to express the end of life.

Yes, I too have heard children of God using this analogy to substantiate OSAS but must admit that I myself do not like it. Nicodemus fell into the same carnally minded trap when he asked: “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” (John 3:4). He too thought that man first had to be unborn before he could be born again.

Jesus didn’t make it any easier for him to understand when He said: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:5-8).

Note the expression “of water and of the Spirit.” Many believe that “water” is a reference to baptism by immersion in water but that would make rebirth a mixture of something physical and spiritual while God Himself says that physical phenomena profit men nothing (is void of any salvivic properties) (John 6 :63).

Therefore, the “water” must refer to a spiritual phenomenon that is equally potent in salvation than the dynamic work of the Holy Spirit. And indeed Jesus confirms this in John 4, Revelation 22:17 and John 15:3. The reason why I am making such a spiel about spirit verses physical is to illustrate that as soon as we mix the two we are immediately prone to error. And you seem to be doing just that. You say: “The Bible clearly teaches that one who has been born can die. Life does not end by “unbirth,” but by death . . . . Likewise, a person who is once born can die, both spiritually and later physically.”

And then you conclude: “Nothing at all is proved by the fact that we do not use the term “unborn” to express the end of life.” The fact that a saint dies physically does not in any way prove that he can also die spiritually. Physical phenomena cannot prove spiritual phenomena.

If physical phenomena were able to prove spiritual and supernatural phenomena we wouldn’t have a single atheist left in this world. But let’s assume that physical phenomena such as organic death can in some way represent spiritual death and as a result we may use the inevitability of physical death as an example for the inevitability of spiritual death whenever saints fall away.

At first glance this seems to be quite feasible when we take into account what Jesus once said, “Let the [spiritually] dead bury their [physically] dead.” (Matthew 8:22). The difference, of course, between the two is that the spiritually dead are still physically alive and have every opportunity to be made spiritually alive through faith in Jesus Christ while the physically dead have no opportunity whatsoever.

Now, to get back to Nicodemus. Look again at Jesus’ answer: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:6). He was saying: “That which is born of the flesh is corruptible (given over to death and decay) and no-one can escape death by re-entering the womb of the mother or by being unborn again.

But that which is born of the Spirit is wrought in the deepest being of man, his spirit, where the seed of the Spirit remains forever. “You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.” (1 Peter 1:23)

“Eternal life has no end; so a person who has eternal life can never lose that life”

LOUIS: “Eternal life has no end; so a person who has eternal life can never lose that life” We must realize from the Bible that what is eternal has neither beginning nor ending. If eternal life cannot be lost because it has no ending, then it cannot be gained either, for it has no beginning.

Accordingly, a person cannot be saved unless he was eternally saved without a beginning. The fact is, eternal life is in the quality of life which is in Jesus Christ. It has its origin nowhere else. “…God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; and he who does not have the Son of God does not have not life” (1John 5:11-12).

If we receive Him, we have eternal life; if we lose Him we lose eternal life. It can have both a beginning and ending in us – a beginning when we repent and believe on Him for personal salvation; an ending if we fall away in apostasy (cease to believe and follow Him). This need never happen, but it is a possibility the believer is often warned against and urged to avoid.

TOM: Your statement “If eternal life cannot be lost because it has no ending, then it cannot be gained either, for it has no beginning. Accordingly, a person cannot be saved unless he was eternally saved without a beginning” makes no sense, at least to me. But bear with me to see whether I understand you correctly.

Eternal life is a Person, and I think you acknowledged this when you quoted 1 John 5:11-12, “and this life is in His Son.” In the first place, eternal life cannot be gained by man. That is a given and indisputable fact. It is given without price to everyone who believes, as the first part of 1 John 5:11 and 12 plainly say.

As such, eternal life in a repentant sinner has a specific beginning, i.e. when he/she puts their trust in Jesus in whom eternal life has no beginning. Thus, there are two features closely interwoven in the one concept “eternal life” – the one with a beginning and the other with no beginning. Yes, of course there can be no eternal life if it had a beginning from God’s point of view. God is eternal and, therefore, life in and through Him is eternal.

If eternal life had a beginning, it follows that Jesus who is the essence of eternal life must have had a beginning. The logical supposition, if eternal life had a beginning, would be that it also has an ending. But now, since it has no beginning in Jesus Christ it cannot possibly have an ending.

Voila, the eternal life that was begun in a repentant sinner the moment he/she put their trust in Jesus for their salvation cannot possibly have an ending because the beginning of the saint’s eternal life is grounded in Jesus Christ in whom eternal life has no ending.

If it were possible for a saint’s eternal security to cease or come to an end, it would mean that Jesus Himself would have to cease being the essence of eternal life. Impossible! The fallacy of your argument lies in the supposition that saints need to do something to maintain their salvation. Such a view must inevitably lead to the notion that a saint can lose his/her salvation because failure is commonplace in the lives of frail human beings. Had they not been frail and prone to failure, they would not have had any need for an Advocate and a High Priest. Continuation at:


Note:
  • DTW/WAP obtained written permission from Louis Matthys Ackermann to quote him in this series.  Thanks Louis.
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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Carolyn

[Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

Thomas, in reply to your first comment and questions. I will reply to the second one later

Carolyn wrote:

My view agrees with this excerpt which is to say that we can fall into unbelief at any point along our walk of faith. I may differ from some of the thinking on this site in that regard, but that is my present stance and what I see in the Scriptures. I don’t believe that we can ever be lost because of stupid choices or mistakes in judgement, or even falling temporarily into sin but I do believe that if we persist in wilful sins, or unbelief once we have been convicted by the Spirit, we CAN fall away, become apostate and end up denying the Lord who bought us. You may say that we were never saved to begin with, but I say we were.

May I ask you a few questions?

1) What is the difference between continuous sins and temporary sins? Don’t you think both have the same devastating effect – separation from God (Isaiah 59:1-2)? If both have the same effect, then we dare not make a distinction between the two.

Unless the Scripture does…
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

2) Did Eve sin wilfully or was she beguiled (enticed) to sin?

By wilful, I mean people who become: apostate, haters of the gospel, despisers of those who love God, who no longer are sanctified by the blood of the covenant, who have outright rejected truth and light and thereby have insulted the Spirit of grace.

Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

3) Would you say Solomon is in heaven? If so, why? (Remember, his sins were exceedingly wilful).

Honestly, Thomas, I don’t know. Some say that it sounded like he repented in Eccelsiastes as an old man. Perhaps. I think it sounds more like the recognition of futility. All is futile. He spent his life in the pursuit of worldly knowledge and self interest and regretted that the only thing worthwhile, in light of the shortness of life, was the knowledge of God. Is that repentance? While I’m not the judge of his heart, I can safely say that there is the threat of losing faith/confidence in the truth/gospel and therefore the need to take warning:

Hebrews 10:32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

4) What did Jesus mean when He said: “But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” (Luke 22:32). Bear in mind that He did not say “that thy lose not thy faith” or “depart from the faith” but “that thy faith FAIL not.”

I will answer that with the question, what did Paul mean by “those who shrink back and are destroyed”? That sounds final to me.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”
38 And,

“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

You can say that Paul had confidence that they would remain faithful and be saved, but at the same time, he had just spent all the previous verses warning them and pleading with them to heed the possibility of turning away, of becoming an enemy of God and his people after they had been enlightened. There are today, many who have become enemies of Christ after they have “received” a knowledge of the truth. They have become angry, openly and vehemently confessed their outright rejection of truth, complete with foot stomping and cursing and have refused to repent. Peter’s cursing was done in a moment of fear and he repented.

5) Would you say that Jesus is praying the same prayer for us than the one He prayed for Peter? If so, why would his prayer fail to keep us on the strait and narrow when it was so successful in Peter’s behalf?

Peter’s cursing was done in a moment of fear and he repented. The Lord knows our heart and he knew ahead of time that Peter would not harden his heart (as in the day of rebellion) and that he would be forgiven. It is the will of God that we endure. But he has not taken away our free will. What would be the purpose of the testing of our faith then?

6) What did Paul mean when he said: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Php 1:6. Paul was confident in the Lord; why aren’t you?

Thomas, I am perfectly confident in regard to God’s willingness to save, sanctify, discipline and bring me into his eternal kingdom. However, I am respectful of his conditions, which he lays out in more than one place:

Colossians 1:22-24
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven,and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

7) How would you interpret 2 Corinthians 7:10: “For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.” (2 Co 7:10). Would you ever regret your salvation and resort to unbelief and apostasy? If not, why do you believe some other children of God would want to do such a silly thing?

Because I have seen examples of this very thing. Simple as that. If you haven’t witnessed this phenomenon of apostasy and unbelief, of those who have been Christians and have abandoned the faith, I am surprised. In fact, why then do we spend time warning people to keep in the Word and flee false teaching? Now…this IS sounding like Calvinism, as we try to put the responsibility for our remaining faithful squarely on the shoulders of God from start to finish. I see a disconnect from reality. He is faithful to those who will persevere in their faith. To those who persist in unbelief as they did in the rebellion (that is those who began to follow Him out of Egypt), and resist his methods of discipline and his long term plans/purposes, he has no obligation to bring them to his eternal kingdom. Nor do they want to be there.

Carolyn

[Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

Thomas, here is my reply to your second comment. I have found several passages of Scripture that I believe answer these questions (in context):

Can we again be entangled in the world?
2 Peter 2:18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
Can those who have known the way of righteousness turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them?
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[i] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Can we sin and still be considered a son of God?
1 John 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

Does disobedience lead to death? Are those who disobey considered servants of God?
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Can a child of God keep on sinning?
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

What is the deception here?
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Are those that have become entangled and overcome still righteous?
2 Peter 2:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

That “servant” of the Lord (Christian) will cut him asunder and appoint him his place with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Some shall depart from the faith. How could you depart if you weren’t in the faith?
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Once again…God is not mocked…a servant of sin is not appointed to everlasting life
John 8:34
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rather, he will reap corruption(death)
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

We can be selective and choose only the Scriptures that suite our OSAS doctrine or we can see the other side of the coin. There are both sides…yes, we would not even desire the Light and Truth if we were not being drawn by the Holy Spirit to conviction of sin and repentance unto salvation.

And yes, none will be lost that come to Christ on his terms. But on the flip side of the coin, if we rebel and turn back to the weak and miserable elements of unbelief, to the sins of the flesh and the evil practices the world, we will be bringing ourselves back under the curse of the law and the damnation of the flesh.

Carolyn

[Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

Thomas, you said: “It is very dangerous to teach others that they can lose their salvation. It teaches them to turn their eyes away from Jesus and fix them on themselves for the maintenance of their salvation. Years ago, on a well-known Bible forum, a young man’s faith in Jesus was nearly destroyed when they told him that he can lose his salvation. By the grace of God and some real hard debating, he was convinced that he cannot lose his salvation.”

In real life, am surrounded by people who are not Christians. I know the difference between obstinate unbelief and fear of damnation. When someone still fears God and recognizes their sinful state, they are not beyond forgiveness. It is when they harden their hearts in unbelief to the point that they can mock and taunt God and there’s no remorse, no reproof in their souls. They are reprobate in their thinking.

If someone still has a fear of God, still desires is willing to discuss faith, and feels even some remorse for his unbelief and rebellion, there is hope. We don’t make those judgements of when a person is completely reprobate. God does. Wherever there is Light, there is hope.

Esau was someone who seemed to have no interest in believing God. Absence of Light.
Eli’s sons had no regard or respect for God’s interests…only their own…Absence of Light.
Revellers in Pride parades seem to be reprobate. Absence of Light.
False teachers (a dime a dozen these days) seemingly have no conscience about stealing or lying. Absence of Light.
Deceivers, like unreasoning animals…Absence of Light.

Someone who CAN and does have conviction of sin…Presence of Light.

The story you told of the young man who was told he could lose his salvation is a bit vague. We have all felt a bit lost and forlorn at times but when we call on the Lord, he answers. If we sin, he convicts. If we repent, he forgives. Light is present. It is more dangerous, as I see from Scripture, to tell someone that they can never lose their salvation if they fall back into sin . That is more dangerous because it breeds smugness and laziness and carnality, leading to further deceitfulness of sin and hardness of heart.

Carolyn

[Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

That verse “Are you so foolish Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” in context, is talking about the law…we are talking about two different things. Here it is in context:
Galatians 3:2 “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[h] 4 Have you experienced[i] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Where is our faith? In keeping the law?(by the flesh) or in Christ?(by the Spirit)

If you start out by faith in Christ, you can’t switch over to trying to obey the Jewish laws and customs, or the ten commandments.

I am not advocating “trying” to be righteous by following rules or principles. I’m saying that if we choose to walk by faith, we must remain in that faith. If we get angry and rebellious toward God, that is not remaining in the faith.

If we choose our own way(rebellion) somewhere before the finish line, then we forfeit the promised land(eternal life). God was angry with that generation and he swore in his anger that they would never enter his rest…and they didn’t.

Even after they had seen all his miracles and he had demonstrated his love and power to them on many occasions. They refused him. They rejected his plan. They grumbled against him. They despised him. They angered him over and over and over. He rejected them. Period.

Hebrews 3:7-9
New International Version (NIV)
Warning Against Unbelief

Hebrews 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.

You said, “He actually believed that he had LOST his salvation because he had been TOLD that he lost it. What’s so vague about that?”

We are told many things by false teachers. But if we go to God we get the truth. He obviously came to the light. He still wanted truth. His eyes were opened by God. He was feeling the fear of God because he was afraid that he had lost his salvation.

My point in talking about unbelievers is that they have NO FEAR of God. This person had a fear of God. That, we are told, is the beginning of wisdom.

Fearing that you can lose your salvation is the opposite of carnality and smugness. It pushes you to find out what the will of the Lord is. It causes you to get into the Word and discover for yourself the truth so that you can’t be lied to anymore. It brings you to the assurance of your salvation rather than depending on Sunday morning sermons to do the work for you, to keep you in the fold. Fear is a motivator, as long as you don’t stay there. There is a reason for fear and once it has done its work, you triumph over fear…by faith.
Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

What did you think of my other comments…including the Scripture references you asked me for? I spent a lot of time looking them up and look forward to your “respectful” rebuttal or better yet…you may even agree with me!

Carolyn

[Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

2 Peter 2: 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

ok. lets take one verse at a time. “after they have escaped”. how do you read that? That would include teachers that at one time believed the simple gospel…like Billy Graham and then he entangled himself in the pollutions of Freemasonry and voila! Now he has a mixture of universalism. He is bringing the way of God into disrepute! I could go on but it’s all been said before….I’m sure you know the story….

Carolyn

[Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

Your comment on 1 John 2:28-29
My point in asking if you can sin and still be a son of God? Let me re-phrase that…Can you live a life characterized by sin and still be considered a son of God?

Answer: No

Question: Why?

Answer: 1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

So my point is that if you once confessed Christ as Saviour and you had begun to follow him and then you turned away, fell away, drifted away, lost connection with the head, departed from the faith, lost confidence, lost faith, etc…what does that mean to you? To me it means that if a person continues on this path of sin, they are no longer continuing in faith, they are back on the broad road

….because the one who lives by faith cannot continue to sin.

Not meaning falling into temporary sin…which we are prone to, like saying a bad work, telling a lie, not paying your speeding ticket on time, on purpose…but meaning wilful, premeditated, rebellious, obstinate, stiff-necked, unrepentant, habitual sin…taking up Mariology, turning to Islam, taking drugs/alcohol to escape reality….to name a few game changers….it happens….

Carolyn

[Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

Carolyn

“That verse “Are you so foolish Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” in context, is talking about the law…we are talking about two different things. Here it is in context:
Galatians 3:2 “I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[h] 4 Have you experienced[i] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Trying to do things in and through the flesh (especially in regard to the maintenance of your salvation) IS the law of the flesh.

Choosing to deny the misdeeds of the flesh, “putting off the old man” is not trying to obey the law. It’s being transformed by the renewing of your mind. It’s getting to know what the will of the Lord is and obeying him. It’s walking in the Light, not being conformed to the world, adding knowledge to our faith, etc. There’s freedom in obedience versus guilt in not obeying the letter of the law. We don’t try and live up to something by the flesh, we obey by the power of the Spirit. He reveals, we are free to obey.

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

Carolyn

I have discussed most of the verses you mentioned in my series called “Eternal Security: NOSAS versus OSAS.” The litmus test is: Do all these verses you allege teach loss of salvation harmonize with Jesus’ words in John 10:28-30. I notice that you haven’t even once referred to this passage. Why?

Actually, I did make mention of this verse. Here’s my lengthy summary:
And yes, none will be lost that come to Christ on his terms.
(last paragraph at 1:01am July 3

But if you want more, then I will give you more:

I disagree that all other verses have to fit with that one. I will guarantee that it will fit with all other verses to complete a picture of the perfect will of God for his sheep.

If we continue in faith, this will be the proof that we are one of those that he has not lost. He is able to keep us from falling and to bring us safely into the kingdom.

If we would choose the beguiling promises of seductive spirits leading us away from the truth, that would prove that we ARE NOT his sheep.

John 10:26 “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

I came at this discussion using different scriptures to prove that sin does not have dominion over a believer but sin also has no place in the kingdom of God. So if we can reconcile these two things, then we have the total picture. If we only concentrate on the positive aspect of victory of sin, then we wonder how it is possible that some people can fall away. Were they ever believers? What happened to them? Was God unfaithful?

I have always been reluctant to have this discussion on here because I dislike debates. I dislike arguments. But since you started the discussion, I thought I would at least answer your questions.

We can leave it at that if you like. We’ve both made our points. I think we were civil…which is really nice. I’d be happy to answer any other questions, or not….After I post this comment, if I missed something, I’ll be back.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Hi Thomas and Carolyn

I have moved all your comments concerning OSAS to the following article Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

Redeemed

Carolyn, just wondering your thoughts on backsliding..

Also, how do you believe the chastening of the Lord works in the life of a believer?

Sharon

[Edited: Comment moved from John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true!]

If a person who is TRULY born again and then say a few years later they wander away like the Prodical son did. Are they now lost? No. What kind of God were our God be if He couldn’t keep us saved. Here is an interesting verse

2nd Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Our Lord made sure that our salvation would truly only be found in Him. He didn’t say, I’ll save you but you keep yourself saved. He didn’t say use your own self-righteousness and then I’ll keep you saved. No, He does the saving and He does the keeping. If one has truly been born again and for a time falls away that verse above says that He cannot deny himself.

I have a nephew that was called to be a Preacher. He was a very eloquent speaking man, could capture your attention with just a few words out of his mouth. Something happened when he was in his second year at Bible college. He turned his back on God and he told my mom that he knew he was saved but he tells my brother (his dad) that he’s not. I think he says that to my brother just to try to aggravate him, but it doesn’t work.

Like the prodical son, I have a prodical nephew. The prodical son was still a son and when the father saw him way on down the road he RAN towards the son. It is my prayer for my nephew that the same will happen. I know what his lifestyle was back then until the “something” happened to make him quit.

I believe that “something” was his mother walking out on his preacher dad after 32 years of marriage. She left my brother, said she wanted to know how the other side lived. Well she is living like the other side now. I believe she is the reason my nephew turned his back on God. But I still believe my nephew is saved.

I have said a few times on this site that God has a lot of wicked, bratty, mean spirited kids, but like the prodical son…they still belong to Jesus Christ, in spite of themselves.

Carolyn

Oh Boy,Thomas, you made me say something I didn’t say: “You did agree that you often say a “bad word,” “tell a lie,” “do not pay your speeding ticket on time, on purpose,” didn’t you?

What I actually said was: “Not meaning falling into temporary sin…which we are prone to, like saying a bad word, telling a lie, not paying your speeding ticket on time, on purpose.” It was hypothetical of the human condition in which “we” naturally do without the Sprit in order to save his skin….and not paying the speeding ticket on time was something I have never done…just hypothetical to illustrate.

By this time in my Christian walk, I do not do these things because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and because of the renewing of my mind in Scriptures such as this one:
Ephesians 4:28
Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
Ephesians 4:25
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

I don’t really understand why everything with OSAS hinges on whether we believe one passage: John 10:28-30

Thomas you said, “To lose your salvation, Christ who said “I shall never leave nor forsake you” must depart from the saint’s most inner being. Do you think He would do such a thing?”

Yes, he would if the person does not want him anymore or if the person has chosen to replace him with something else(idolatry). If we will not heed his warning, then the consequences will be experienced. But that is a matter I can see that we will probably not agree on.

Thomas you said, “One last question, then I’m done. Do you think Jesus lied in John 10:28-30? If He had, then He’s a lousy Saviour because who can trust someone who is in league with the devil, the father of all lies from the beginning?”

And I reply: First of all, He did not lie. He will never lose those who come to him for salvation. Nothing can separate us or snatch us away. But we can depart of our own free will.

Secondly, you are reading into John 10:28-30 what isn’t there…that once we are saved we can never walk away. There must be belief.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

My point is that we have nothing to fear if we continue in the Word for this is what Christ said and what Paul said to Timothy. I have also quoted other Scriptures in support of staying in the word. I believe every word, not just John 10:28-30 but EVERY word that he spoke to us and it all makes perfect sense and leads me to assurance and confidence and faith in Him. He will bring me and anyone who continues to have faith in him safely into his Kingdom.

Thomas: My point has been our belief versus unbelief. Your point is a question of God’s faithfulness. If we put them together it works. If we try and separate these two points and make one work without the other, then we have a problem.

Why didn’t I comment on OSAS here? Guys…stop kidding around…Duhhhh!

Redeemed: I prefer to talk Scripture…backsliding? chastening of the Lord? How about “we all stumble in many ways”. how about the Lord disciplines those he loves.

I’m talked out on this issue. We part friends. love y’all.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

>> I really don’t think you love us because you believe we can lose our salvation while you will never even think of departing from Him, stop believing on Him and turning your back on Him to follow another religion.

Yip Carolyn, this is just not cricket as we say here in SA. I’ve been reading your comments slowly and thoroughly and this is the jist of the matter. It is always some else and not you as Thomas says.

Please remember, no one chased you away from here, and I am sad to see you go :( Come back when you have calmed down.

Much love to you!

Redeemed

Carolyn, don’t know if you are still there, but I hope so. I don’t see you as being boasting or arrogant or seeing yourself better than others. I certainly cannot judge your heart. Yes, we should as believers have the conviction of the Holy Spirit when we are tempted to sin and obey and resist. But sister, there is still the flesh and Satan to contend with and we can and do sin. Even a bad thought is a sin. Have you ever thought about the fact that our Lord Jesus is continually watching over us and as our High Priest making continual forgiveness for our sin? That is why we cannot lose our salvation, because it depends upon JESUS, NOT US! We can’t earn our salvation and we can’t maintain it and keep it. Our Lord knows that and He made provision for it. That is enough for me. I am secure in Him and so are you my friend.

When I asked you about backsliding, I was wanting to know your thoughts on this. I didn’t feel it necessary to quote chapter and verse. It seemed to me that you were avoiding the issue.

Love and grace to you!

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Carolyn

I wish I could FORCE YOU TO understand this, but I can’t… I can only pray that you do.

Redeemed said: “Even a bad thought is a sin. Have you ever thought about the fact that our Lord Jesus is continually watching over us and as our High Priest making continual forgiveness for our sin? That is why we cannot lose our salvation, because it depends upon JESUS, NOT US!”

Carolyn

On the contrary, Thomas. I have loved you all enough to take time out to tell you to stop seeing the Christian life only through your OSAS coloured glasses and see some of the other “alleged” Scriptures that remind us that we can still be beguiled as Eve was beguiled.
2 Corinthians 11:2-4 KJV
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

We can still be “carried away” by strange teachings and “fall from our secure position”. NIV or “being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness”. AKJV
2 Peter 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

My caution is that we cannot yet bury our heads in the sand and pretend that we cannot still be deceived with reminders such as: Be on your guard. Take heed. Abide in the word. Pray without ceasing. Encourage one another daily.

As for where our victory lies, we have already agreed on that. We are complete in Him. Christ has overcome for us. We are more than conquerors through him who loved us. We have no obligation to the sinful nature to obey its evil desires. We can reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God.

Debs, Redeemed and Thomas. I think that you have somewhat misunderstood me as you seem to regard me as following something other than the truth. Another religion, Thomas…really??

We seem to be talking past each other on this. I do believe I can still sin. I do believe Christ has and will continue to deliver me from sin, as well as everyone else who continues on in the faith. What I don’t believe is that we are held captive. We still have a free will and if we decide to go our own way, the exit door is not locked and bolted. As was the case in Billy Graham for instance, who at one time preached the pure and simple gospel and has opted for the Universal gospel of Freemasonry.

So as I seem to be regarded as a delinquent in the faith, for now I will love you and leave you. Perhaps I will come back when I “have calmed down”, although I don’t get much calmer than what you see.
1 Peter 1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.

Rob Diamond

To Thomas:

An answer for John 10:28-30

Almost every eternal security proponent which tries to prove once saved always saved, places heavy emphasis on Jn. 10:28 and no one can pluck them out of my hand. For some, this is the one proof text for their never perish once you have been saved teaching. But does John 10:28 really teach once saved always saved and never perish for all who have been saved? Let’s take a close look at it and the surrounding verses:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they FOLLOW me. I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10:27-29)
Please note the word follow in verse 27. It is a CONTINUOUS TENSE in the Greek and describes Jesus’ sheep. The plural pronouns they and them refer back to verse 27. Hence, the only ones promised the wonderful never perish security in verses 28 and 29 are the ones who CONTINUE to follow Jesus! No such never perish promise, either here or anywhere else in the Bible, is reserved for one who doesn’t CONTINUE to follow Jesus, such as a backslider. That, however, is never the way the eternal security teachers cite John 10:28! Incredible spiritual harm has been done over the years by ignoring verse 27 and reading into (distorting) verses 28 and 29 (no one can pluck them out of my hand) into something that is not there. Verse 27 is an integral part of John 10:28 for it describes who shall never perish, that is, Jesus’ sheep who continue to follow Him. To omit verse 27 and/or the facts about the word follow is to change the meaning of Scripture!

Thomas, you say that Jesus must be lying in these verses if a believer can lose his salvation. Well, when put in the context stated above it is obvious he is not lying because the believer’s eternal state (according to John 10:27-30) is dependent upon him continuously following Jesus.It is a CONDITIONAL security.

What about Peter?
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Did not Peter deny Jesus three times? Without Peter’s repentance then Jesus would have had to deny Peter before the Father is that not so?

Frankly, I don’t want to get into the eternal security debate, because for whatever reason it seems to me that which ever way one believes he or she remains with that belief. I have not seen many change their belief in relation to this particular topic. I did want to respond to Thomas’ emphasis on John 10:28-30, though.

brotherdonny

Hester
Could I share a scripture with you,and ask you to meditate on it, and ask God to open your spiritual eyes to it. Ephesians.1:16-17
Romans.5:8-10
But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.That is past tense. That if One died for all, then all died.2Corinthians.5:14

verse 9.Much more then,there is more.? having now been Justified by His Blood,we shall be saved FROM WRATH through Him. We shall be saved FROM WRATH through Him. That is future tense, there is your eternal security. Having now been Justified
verse 10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more-there is more?.and this is the exciting part, we shall be saved by His life.
Thing about that. We are reconciled by His Death,so we can be saved by His Life. In the

brotherdonny

Hester
Amplified.Romans.5:10 (– now that we are reconciled,that we shall be saved (daily delivered from sins dominion) through His Resurrection life. We have the living Christ dwelling within us, living His life in us and through us,It is no longer I that lives.
When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him. Colossians.3:4

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