Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

Eternal Security -NOSASvsOSAS

Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)

I have debated many people on the topic of eternal security among them atheists, Calvinists, Muslims, Afrikaner Israelites, Seventh Day Adventists, Sabbatarians, Charismatics and, believe it or not, even Christians.

None of them made such a profound impact on me than the one I had with a group of Christians who tried to convince a young man that he can lose his salvation. The young man actually believed that he had already lost his salvation and was so stricken with despondency, I thought he was on the verge of committing suicide.

During my conversation and attempts to convince him that a saint cannot lose his salvation, the other members of a well-known Bible forum attacked me head-on, accusing me of all kinds of things. I could sense that Satan was really doing his utmost to keep the young man in bondage to a lie so many Christians believe to be true.

By the grace of God, the dark cloud of misery and uncertainty lifted from the young man and he eventually knew for certain that he never lost his salvation. We must remember that our younger generation of brothers and sisters in the Lord are exposed to immense temptations and many of them do succumb to them.

The ensuing battle with Satan and his host can be so intense that the saint begins to contemplate suicide. “You call yourself a Christian. Look what you’ve done now. Look at you, you wretch. You’ve lost your salvation.” It is always a good thing to remind ourselves of these words:-

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

The mere thought that you are standing is proof that you may have already fallen. If you have, don’t remain there. Get on your knees, enter into the holy of holies through the blood of Christ and ask forgiveness (Hebrews 10:19-23). Then, get on your feet and continue to follow Christ Jesus. Why is Satan so keen to sow doubt in the hearts and minds of God’s saints?

His main purpose is to get you to distrust Jesus Christ, your only Saviour. If he can get you to turn your eyes away from Jesus where He is seated at the right hand of God and turn them inwardly to yourself, he has gained a foothold that can cause havoc in your life.

A brother in Christ, whose acquaintance I was privileged to make on Facebook, asked me to critique an article he had written on free-will. A comparatively large part of his article included his thoughts on eternal security. At first I was a little reluctant but quickly realized that Louis was a man of gentle persuasion who could throw and receive punches with dignity.

With his permission which he granted me without any hesitancy, I now present to you our little debate for you to make your choice for or against eternal security. Please choose your words with placid gentleness when you comment. Thank you.

The believer’s security

LOUIS: No other issue arising from Augustinianism/Calvinism is of wider interest today than that of “eternal security,” or perseverance of the saints (also called once ‘saved always saved’). True Calvinists still hold on to this 5th doctrine of TULIP as a logical part and conclusion of their theology.

Many who have abandoned or minimizing the other four doctrines, have generally held firmly on to this one, even when its logical foundations have been removed. In their minds it followed as a necessary conclusion from their view of divine sovereignty, predestination and unconditional election.

It is certain that the elect can never be lost. The mild Calvinistic position includes all those who have departed from strict Calvinism but who still hold to unconditional security for the believer. There are serious problems with this modified view.

TOM: I can assure you that my belief in eternal security is not some kind of residue of TULIP or any other Calvinistic doctrine. It is based entirely on the promises of God in Scripture. I wouldn’t call the Calvinist’s view of eternal security “Once Saved Always Saved.” I would rather refer to it as “Once allegedly Elected Always allegedly Elected.” Allow me to explain. True repentance involves a godly sorrow (sorrow approved by God when His Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment).

This happens when the sinner realizes that he/she is lost (bound for hell) and of his own volition comes to Jesus to seek forgiveness and redemption because he/she knows they desperately need a Saviour. “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

The elect cannot possibly know that they are sick and that they need a Physician to heal them. Dead men aren’t sick. They are dead and cannot possibly know that they are terminally ill.  (To a Calvinist “dead in sins and trespasses” means that the sinner is as dead as a corpse and completely unable to hear and respond to the Gospel Call. To substantiate this view they use the resurrection of Lazarus as an example of regeneration. Read here.)

I notice that you have failed to mention one of the most important passages in Scripture dealing with eternal security and that is 2 Corinthians 7:10 “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”

The truly converted sinner will never regret his or her conversion/repentance/salvation and turn his/her back on God, no matter how difficult the road ahead may be. Only those who had a “conversion” inspired by the sorrow of the world eventually turn their backs on God because they are not genuinely saved. They are usually the ones who say: “I used to be a Bible believing Christian but I no longer believe in God and His Son.”

Pharaoh had such a “conversion.” “And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.” (Exodus 9:27) “Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you.” (Exodus 10:16).

An unbeliever’s mere acknowledgement of sin means nothing. Pharaoh proved it. People do that every day. An unbeliever’s acknowledgment of sin without a conviction of being lost (hell-bound and deservedly so) cannot save. Jesus can only find and save sinners who know, realize and acknowledge that they are lost (Luke 19:10).

I usually ask Calvinists: “When were you convicted of judgment – before or after your monergistic regeneration?” They can’t answer: “Before regeneration” because a corpse cannot be convicted of anything. And they cannot answer: “after regeneration” because what’s the point in being convicted of judgement and hell when they have already been delivered from it? That’s preposterous. The only answer they can give, is the one a Calvinist once gave me:

The bible never says that God’s people were ever bound for hell, it says they were chosen “in Christ” before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). The conviction of sin is usually misinterpreted by God’s people to be the conviction that they are hell bound, the gospel explains to them that they are not, because of what Christ did FOR them.”

“Conviction of sin is the belief in the reality of sin in light of God’s holiness and perfection. Many of God’s children believe this to mean that they are going to hell. They are not. That is why they need to hear the good news of their salvation, so that they can believe it, rejoice in it, and profit from it.

The gospel doesn’t make their salvation true, their salvation IS TRUE and the gospel proclaims it to the Lord’s people who receive it by faith and profit from that understanding.”

So you see, Calvinists have always been Jesus Christ’s sheep, they’ve always been saved (God’s elect). They only need to be made aware that they are saved (elected) and live accordingly (perseverance of the saints). There is absolutely no difference between them and the Emerging Church who claims that Jesus already dwells mystically in sinners and they only need to be made aware of it.

Is this not perhaps the reason why Neo-Calvinists like John Piper and Mark Driscoll have penchants for the mystic practices in the Emerging Church? I’m no prophet but I predicted more than seven years ago that this was going to happen. Sadly, Total Depravity (Total Inability) deprives the Calvinist of true repentance and salvation.

They are deceived and don’t know it. I have tried for many years to figure out why they cling so tenaciously to John Calvin’s doctrines and have come up with two answers. They are deathly afraid to violate God’s sovereignty and the other reason is simply “The Mystery of Iniquity.” I, therefore, wouldn’t associate “Once Saved Always Saved” with “Once allegedly Elected Always allegedly Elected.”

Logical inconsistency

LOUIS: Logical inconsistency In his Institutes vol. 1, p. 8-9 Calvin makes a long statement which plainly means that laymen reading the Scriptures are to interpret them according to his doctrine. Jacobus Arminius discovered the same priority of doctrine at Leyden University.

Gomarus, the professor of New Testament studies, insisted that the Scriptures should always be interpreted according to the creed, while Arminius held to the Word of God as the final authority. The doctrine of security, then, was not derived from the Bible but from philosophical and logical considerations.

TOM: I beg to differ. If eternal security was derived from philosophical and logical considerations and not from the Bible, then we should consider the death and resurrection of Jesus (the very foundation and bedrock of eternal security) from a purely philosophical and logical angle instead of from the revelation given to us in the Bible.

If the death and crucifixion of Jesus is the bedrock/foundation of our salvation, which of course it is, then we need nothing else to secure our salvation, least of all philosophy. “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8). In fact, your entire discourse on the issue of eternal security is based purely on philosophical presuppositions. Your following statement proves this.

LOUIS: One cannot insist on unconditional eternal security of the believer, while neglecting or denying unconditional election and irresistible grace (See TULIP). When Calvinistic evangelicals preach the Biblical Gospel to all men and declare that people are genuinely free to receive or reject it; they are denying the Calvinistic concepts of unconditional election, limited atonement and irresistible grace.

And when they say that once a person has repented and received Christ through a free, voluntary act of faith he is no longer free to renounce Christ through a voluntarily act of unbelief and disobedience into apostasy, they are taking a position unsupported by Calvinism, the Bible or sound reason.

TOM: Your train of thought is fallacious. You cannot assume that because TULIP says that unconditional election requires no free-will that it debunks free-will in unconditional eternal security. You seem to be saying that TULIP’s unconditional election is the only barometer by which eternal security must be assessed.

That’s a pure philosophical argument which, to my mind is, holds no water. To draw a parallel between two things just because the same word “unconditional” appears in both is not kosher. I have already proven to you above that the Calvinistic view of eternal security (“Once allegedly Elected, Always allegedly Elected”) is worlds apart from “Once Saved, Always Saved,” simply because the Calvinistic foundation for salvation is a false one.

The premise that If man is free to receive or renounce Christ’s death on the cross as the only means for his salvation, it follows that he is also free to renounce his salvation once he has been saved, is also fallacious. I have already shown earlier, that the truly repentant sinner who realized that he/she was lost without Jesus will never regret his/her salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Those who regret their “salvation” were never saved in the first place because they built their “redemption” on a false foundation. This happens frequently within the ranks of the Charismatic fraternity where health wealth and prosperity doctrines are put out as proof for one’s salvation.

When most do not experience what they’ve been told, they grow despondent, renounce God and turn their backs on Him. As you can see I tend to base my conclusion on biblical facts rather than on philosophical arguments.

LOUIS: The modern “eternal security people” are inconsistent when they declare that sinners are free to repent and exercise faith in Christ (through the aid of the Spirit), but once having been saved, they are no longer free to reject Him (through resisting the Spirit).

TOM: I have already dealt with your assertion in the previous paragraph. One more thought will suffice. You call the “Once Saved Always Saved” crowd the “modern ‘eternal security people.'” Is there any difference between Paul’s and the other apostles’ views on eternal security and the modern day “eternal security people?”

I don’t think so. Paul said: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.” (2 Timothy 1:12). Paul uses the past tense, as you may know, not because he once believed and then fell into unbelief.

He was referring to the day in Ananias’ house in Damascus where he called on the Name of the Lord for his salvation. To him, and this should be the case with all the truly saved believers, faith is to commit your entire being – spirit, soul and body – into the hands of Jesus Christ on the basis that He has paid the penalty for all of your sins.

It was this commitment (the relinquishing of his own authority on his life) by faith alone that gave Paul the absolute assurance that Christ Himself would preserve him until that day. It ties in perfectly with what he says in Philippians 1: “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6).

Was there any possibility that Paul could renounce his faith in Jesus Christ, turn his back on him and turn away? Absolutely! But I think the issue here is not whether he could renounce his faith but rather whether he wanted to, and the answer is a resounding “no” because he knew from the very outset into whose hands he committed his entire life.

May I ask you whether you would ever want to renounce your faith in Jesus Christ and turn your back on him never to return again? No? Why then would anyone else who’s had a true salvivc encounter with Jesus Christ even contemplate such a disastrous thing? Ah, of course, it is always the other person who loses his salvation and not I.

Some cliches of eternal security

LOUIS: Some cliches of the security doctrine To promote this doctrine, the mild Calvinists have made popular a number of brief statements “Once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son” This is not binding in a spiritual sense.

All believers were once children of the devil. If the analogy is binding, we must always remain so. Since children of the devil can become children of God, the analogy is obviously not binding. John 8:42, 44 and Ephesians 2:3 say that we were children of the devil and by nature children of wrath. If that cliche is true, that would prevent any unbeliever form ever becoming a believer and being saved.

TOM: Having been a child of the devil can hardly be used as an analogy against the “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine. If anyone, who is being held captive in the clutches of Satan, must remain there because of a manmade binding analogy “once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son,” then Satan is the omnipotent God and not YAHWEH.

Moreover, salvation would have then been a cruel hoax and YAHWEH the author of it. What did Jesus say to his disciples when they asked Him “Who then can be saved?” He said: “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:27). Nonetheless, is it possible with God to save someone without them having to put their trust in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross?

Doesn’t that limit God’s sovereignty and omnipotence? (Hebrews 11:6). Indeed, nothing is impossible with God but in his salvivic work He has sovereignly and omnipotently decided to accomplish his salvation – which has never been impossible with Him – through faith and faith alone. If faith could limit God’s omnipotence and sovereignty, we would again squarely be in the Calvinist camp and we don’t want to go there, do we?

If the analogy “once a child, always a child” or “once a son, always a son” could be applied to both God’s and Satan’s security systems, we would have to say that Satan’s security system is equal to or just as good as that of God and vice versa. Needless to say, that would be disastrous for God and a resounding and eternal victory for Satan.

As you yourself said “that would prevent any unbeliever from ever becoming a believer and being saved.” However, the millions upon millions of sinners who’d been saved throughout history prove beyond any doubt that not only is God’s salvation but also his security system magnanimously superior, greater and stronger than that of Satan. (Matthew 12:29; 1 John 3:8; Colossians 2:15).

The phrase “ex agorazo” is used several times in the New Testament and denotes Christ’s formidable and irreversible redemption. It conveys the meaning of someone going into a market place, purchasing slaves and taking them into his home never to sell them again.

While it is hypothetically possible that the analogies “once a child, always a child” and “once a son, always a son” may be applied to Satan because it is so easily applied by saints to God’s salvation and his preserving grace, the maxim “once saved, always saved” cannot possibly be used of Satan. It can only be applied to God.

Yes, it is true that we would have remained sons and daughters of Satan IF Jesus Christ never became flesh. Yes, if He hadn’t paid such a magnanimously high price for our deliverance from the clutches of Satan we would still have been Satan’s sons and daughters. Therefore, the notion that a saved saint can lose his salvation and forever remain a son or a daughter of Satan demeans the magnanimous salvation of Jesus Christ on the cross.

It would mean that Satan is stronger than Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice has satisfied God the Father for all eternity why wouldn’t it satisfy the saved sinner? Indeed, it does because he would never regret his salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10)

“A person who is once born cannot be unborn”

LOUIS: “A person who is once born can never be unborn. This is also a subtle way of convincing those who are not careful in their thinking. The Bible never uses the term “unborn,” for the opposite of being born is to die, not to be unborn. The Bible clearly teaches that one who has been born can die. Life does not end by “unbirth,” but by death.

A fire that is once kindled is never “unkindled,” but it can be quenched. A fish that is once caught is never “uncaught,” but it can be cast away as worthless. Likewise, a person who is once born can die, both spiritually and later physically. Nothing at all is proved by the fact that we do not use the term “unborn” to express the end of life.

Yes, I too have heard children of God using this analogy to substantiate OSAS but must admit that I myself do not like it. Nicodemus fell into the same carnally minded trap when he asked: “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” (John 3:4). He too thought that man first had to be unborn before he could be born again.

Jesus didn’t make it any easier for him to understand when He said: “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:5-8).

Note the expression “of water and of the Spirit.” Many believe that “water” is a reference to baptism by immersion in water but that would make rebirth a mixture of something physical and spiritual while God Himself says that physical phenomena profit men nothing (is void of any salvivic properties) (John 6 :63).

Therefore, the “water” must refer to a spiritual phenomenon that is equally potent in salvation than the dynamic work of the Holy Spirit. And indeed Jesus confirms this in John 4, Revelation 22:17 and John 15:3. The reason why I am making such a spiel about spirit verses physical is to illustrate that as soon as we mix the two we are immediately prone to error. And you seem to be doing just that. You say: “The Bible clearly teaches that one who has been born can die. Life does not end by “unbirth,” but by death . . . . Likewise, a person who is once born can die, both spiritually and later physically.”

And then you conclude: “Nothing at all is proved by the fact that we do not use the term “unborn” to express the end of life.” The fact that a saint dies physically does not in any way prove that he can also die spiritually. Physical phenomena cannot prove spiritual phenomena.

If physical phenomena were able to prove spiritual and supernatural phenomena we wouldn’t have a single atheist left in this world. But let’s assume that physical phenomena such as organic death can in some way represent spiritual death and as a result we may use the inevitability of physical death as an example for the inevitability of spiritual death whenever saints fall away.

At first glance this seems to be quite feasible when we take into account what Jesus once said, “Let the [spiritually] dead bury their [physically] dead.” (Matthew 8:22). The difference, of course, between the two is that the spiritually dead are still physically alive and have every opportunity to be made spiritually alive through faith in Jesus Christ while the physically dead have no opportunity whatsoever.

Now, to get back to Nicodemus. Look again at Jesus’ answer: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:6). He was saying: “That which is born of the flesh is corruptible (given over to death and decay) and no-one can escape death by re-entering the womb of the mother or by being unborn again.

But that which is born of the Spirit is wrought in the deepest being of man, his spirit, where the seed of the Spirit remains forever. “You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.” (1 Peter 1:23)

“Eternal life has no end; so a person who has eternal life can never lose that life”

LOUIS: “Eternal life has no end; so a person who has eternal life can never lose that life” We must realize from the Bible that what is eternal has neither beginning nor ending. If eternal life cannot be lost because it has no ending, then it cannot be gained either, for it has no beginning.

Accordingly, a person cannot be saved unless he was eternally saved without a beginning. The fact is, eternal life is in the quality of life which is in Jesus Christ. It has its origin nowhere else. “…God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; and he who does not have the Son of God does not have not life” (1John 5:11-12).

If we receive Him, we have eternal life; if we lose Him we lose eternal life. It can have both a beginning and ending in us – a beginning when we repent and believe on Him for personal salvation; an ending if we fall away in apostasy (cease to believe and follow Him). This need never happen, but it is a possibility the believer is often warned against and urged to avoid.

TOM: Your statement “If eternal life cannot be lost because it has no ending, then it cannot be gained either, for it has no beginning. Accordingly, a person cannot be saved unless he was eternally saved without a beginning” makes no sense, at least to me. But bear with me to see whether I understand you correctly.

Eternal life is a Person, and I think you acknowledged this when you quoted 1 John 5:11-12, “and this life is in His Son.” In the first place, eternal life cannot be gained by man. That is a given and indisputable fact. It is given without price to everyone who believes, as the first part of 1 John 5:11 and 12 plainly say.

As such, eternal life in a repentant sinner has a specific beginning, i.e. when he/she puts their trust in Jesus in whom eternal life has no beginning. Thus, there are two features closely interwoven in the one concept “eternal life” – the one with a beginning and the other with no beginning. Yes, of course there can be no eternal life if it had a beginning from God’s point of view. God is eternal and, therefore, life in and through Him is eternal.

If eternal life had a beginning, it follows that Jesus who is the essence of eternal life must have had a beginning. The logical supposition, if eternal life had a beginning, would be that it also has an ending. But now, since it has no beginning in Jesus Christ it cannot possibly have an ending.

Voila, the eternal life that was begun in a repentant sinner the moment he/she put their trust in Jesus for their salvation cannot possibly have an ending because the beginning of the saint’s eternal life is grounded in Jesus Christ in whom eternal life has no ending.

If it were possible for a saint’s eternal security to cease or come to an end, it would mean that Jesus Himself would have to cease being the essence of eternal life. Impossible! The fallacy of your argument lies in the supposition that saints need to do something to maintain their salvation. Such a view must inevitably lead to the notion that a saint can lose his/her salvation because failure is commonplace in the lives of frail human beings. Had they not been frail and prone to failure, they would not have had any need for an Advocate and a High Priest. Continuation at:


Note:
  • DTW/WAP obtained written permission from Louis Matthys Ackermann to quote him in this series.  Thanks Louis.
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Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Tom Lessing is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Sharon

This sounds like what my ex sister in law did to my brother who is a Pastor. She wanted to see how the other side lived…so she is living it. You wouldn’t live in Fort Myers, Florida do you? Just wondering.

Redeemed wrote:

Hester, I understand the examples you gave and I have known such people. One was even a pastor’s wife who turned into an alcoholic divorced a faithful husband. She gave every evidence of being saved. This has left many perplexed and wondering how this could be so.

Hester, we cannot look to people to prove biblical texts. What the Bible says is either true or it is not. Of course we know it is the ultimate truth and the foundation of our faith.

You did not answer my questions about being born again – would you kindly do so? If someone is truly born again, that process cannot be undone, can it any more than a natural child can re-enter the mother’s womb.

In your examples you referred to both women as “believers”. Upon what do you base that upon? Did they hear the true and complete Gospel and respond to it or was it a “gospel” of works? We don’t have a complete picture. What EXACTLY was the origin of their belief?
How do you know it was genuine?

Thomas makes a good point. There are so many false professions based upon faulty preaching. There is the extreme of dragging people to the altar through brow beating to emotionalism to works-based salvation, to easy believism with no repentance. It runs the gamut. It is sad to think how many people are running around with unconverted hearts, trying to live the Christian life in the flesh and to please others rather than the Lord and serve Him out of a loving and grateful heart.

Hester, you can’t interpret the Word of God and determine doctrine by looking at people. You can’t say for certain that these women were even believers because God knows the heart.

These are both tragedies for sure. And like the example I cited, it leaves us scratching our heads. The woman I mentioned in retrospect liked the limelight and was very self-focused, things that went unnoticed. Her story isn’t over either. She is in God’s hands.

I know people who don’t believe in eternal security of the believer. They don’t know how to rest in the Lord. They constantly strive and have no peace. Their service tends to be in the flesh our of obligation rather than love for the Lord.

I thank you for this discussion and I hope that it is fruitful for all. It is certainly one that is needed.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Rob Diamond

>> Did not Peter deny Jesus three times? Without Peter’s repentance then Jesus would have had to deny Peter before the Father is that not so?

Remember this, it is the Holy Spirit abiding in US that causes us to repent. So Peter would have repented no matter what BECAUSE of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit caused Peter to grieve through chastising him, and because of Peter’s grief and sorrow the Holy Spirit brought Peter back to Jesus to repent.

You fail you understand that it is NOT OUR WORKS that keep us saved, but it is God’s POWER that keeps us saved. It’s the Holy Spirit abiding IN YOU that keeps bringing you back to Jesus over and over and over again. If it was not for Jesus’ power to keep you, EVERYONE would fall away immediately because your flesh is weak and totally and utterly sinful.

By saying that you can’t be kept by Jesus Christ you deny His saving power to keep you, you believe He is weak and you are strong; you believe you are strong enough to keep your salvation through your own hard work, and this is false!

Now look at this:

When you are genuinely saved your name is written in to the book of Life and when it’s written in there it’s NEVER BLOTTED OUT.

Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Please CONTINUE to read this article explaining why you are KEPT: The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)

Redeemed

So sorry to hear that this happened to your pastor brother. Sadly this kind of thing happens more often than one would think. People often forget to pray for their pastors’ marriages and families. They have big targets on their backs and tremendous pressures and often no one in whom they can confide and won’t betray their trust.

Been to Ft. Myers, but only as a visitor.

Rob Diamond

Thomas:

You said:
Nah! you and Carolyn and the rest who do not believe in eternal security will never do a dastardly thing like that, would you? It is always the other vagrant who will do something so horrendous.

Is that sort of statement really necessary?

It is perfectly fine to show your interpretation of the scripture. People can either agree or disagree with how you say this is what the scripture means. But with that statement above you unjustly lump myself, Carolyn, and others into some sort of “holier than thou” category without TRULY KNOWING me nor Carolyn or the rest profoundly enough to make a statement like that.

Frankly, though, if that is how you need to respond, so be it. To me it shows a lack of spiritual maturity and perhaps you are not qualified to be in a lead position on this sort of website. Is that too strong of a statement coming from me or am I being judgmental myself since I do not TRULY KNOW you? I am not above being judged.I pray I do learn from someone else’s understanding of scripture. But don’t forget, with the judgment you judge you will be judged in return. (and so will I)

Carry on.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Rob

Thomas has a very good question. Will you ever turn you back on Jesus? Will you ever renounce your faith? Will you try to unblot you name out of the book of life? Or is it only other people who do it?

People who believe you can lose your salvation seem to think they will never be the ones to turn their backs on Jesus, it’s every one else who is susceptible to losing their salvation.

Here is another question, how do you know you have not lost it already? What is keeping you from losing it right now?

The idea of losing your salvation, is just as ridiculous as believing your are Elect before time memorial – you just don’t know if you have lost your salvation already never to become saved again (Hebrews 6), and you just don’t know if God picked you to be one of the Elect or to one to go to hell. God it not cruel. To believe that you can lose your salvation places a huge BONDAGE on the individual and this is not biblical.

Carolyn

Thomas you said: “Nah! you and Carolyn and the rest who do not believe in eternal security will never do a dastardly thing like that, would you? It is always the other vagrant who will do something so horrendous.

The question I have is why is always the other vagrants like Emergents, for instance, who will do something horrendous? You spend all kinds of time refuting the Rob Bells and the Billy Grahams and Rick Warrens who once preached a sound gospel, as though they were always wolves. But I don’t believe they were always so. They once believed an orthodox gospel and have veered off course. It’s not always someone else. That’s the point I’m making. It could be you. It could be me if we don’t walk in humility.

And if you read the Scriptures without your OSAS distortion glasses on, you will see what is promised those who wander off and end up shipwrecking their faith. It’s not just the Emergents or the Purpose Driven or Hypercharismatics who will end up on the rocks. It’s not just the other guys. We need to walk humbly with God, keeping our doctrine pure, or we could find ourselves rejecting truth for some deception.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

>> I really don’t think you love us because you believe we can lose our salvation while you will never even think of departing from Him, stop believing on Him and turning your back on Him to follow another religion.

Yip Carolyn, this is just not cricket as we say here in SA. I’ve been reading your comments slowly and thoroughly and this is the jist of the matter. It is always some else and not you as Thomas says.

Please remember, no one chased you away from here, and I am sad to see you go :( Come back when you have calmed down.

Much love to you!

I make no difference between us, Debs. I’m on the same boat you are on. I’m chief of sinners. I’ve been saved by grace.

No one chased me away, but it’s hard to walk with a “groupthink” that considers me an instigator of misrepresentation and distortion (if not stated emphatically, implied most certainly). It just keeps coming up…because I don’t fit the OSAS doctrine.

I won’t change my mind, so not much use of hoping for that. I thought we could still agree on other things, but the OSAS monster keeps rearing its pretty little head. And Debs, don’t deflect onto something like me needing to calm down. You know that’s not the issue.

I have not been the divisive one here. But I feel the need to speak up and then off I go, hi-ho, hi-ho. A little humour for my send off.

The issue we disagree. I see all “ifs”…conditional security…certainly eternal security, but conditional…

Sharon

My brother’s confidant was our dad. Dad went home to live forever with Jesus in 2008. But he does have a couple close preacher brothers he talks too as well sometimes. The target is on their lives. The family has one too. As much as I love my brother I did not like being related to my pastor. Yep we all should be in prayer for our Pastors.

Redeemed wrote:

So sorry to hear that this happened to your pastor brother. Sadly this kind of thing happens more often than one would think. People often forget to pray for their pastors’ marriages and families. They have big targets on their backs and tremendous pressures and often no one in whom they can confide and won’t betray their trust.

Been to Ft. Myers, but only as a visitor.

Sharon

1st Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

When all is said and done, and debates have raged forever on this topic will there ever come a time when we will put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and believe in His complete word? If we have trusted Jesus with our eternal destiny can we not still trust him for those times when our own humanity leaks all over us and we sin or even walk away for a time?

The verse above in 1st Corinthians teaches us that everything in scripture was written for an ensample or example for us. So if one truly can lose their salvation then there must be an example of someone who did so. We have trusted in Jesus and He was Baptized for our example. He gave us example of how communion or the Lords Supper should be conducted. Jesus had a “Divine Appointment with Saul/Paul. Paul, through the unction of the Holy Spirit, gave instructions as to how we conduct church services, home life, how to have a work ethic, a adult child’s responsibility to their parent and more examples of how we are to live for our King while here below. We have been introduced to many different examples via other children of the King. None in scripture were perfect people. Just like us they had their “besetting sins.” All the good things in scripture along with all of the bad things were written for our example.

My question for those reading this and do not believe God is strong enough to keeps us saved then with all respect, please give me just one example of someone from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21 where a person that was truly saved then because of some sin they did lost their salvation. Remember the Bible was written for our example.

Then the verse in Ephesians…we, the saved have been sealed unto the day of redemption. What does that mean? The Holy Spirit is easily grieved. He has sealed us unto the day of redemption. What sin could make the Holy Spirit “unseal” a saved person?

It grieves the Holy Spirit when a saved person believes they can lose their salvation. Since it is His job to seal us and then we go “extra-biblical” and believe we can lose what He has sealed, then it offends Him. It’s not nice to grieve the Holy Spirit.

We, the Saved, are Saved and sealed! Rather than believe a false teaching of losing your salvation, rejoice because we are sealed unto the day of our redemption.

Rob Diamond

Rob Diamond

This post has been deleted because of his use of a swear word. He says ” I want to add that I definitely believe the Lord God is able to keep me from falling and present me faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 1:24). But I am keenly aware of warnings in the Bible about practicing sin as a believer. That is dangerous, dangerous territory in which to be.”

Indeed, it is dangerous and not until he learns to practice what he preaches and has the manners to answer questions with dignity and civility will I consider placing his comments again. Well, perhaps it is not so bad to use one swear word now and again; it cannot be seen as practicing sin and definitely not as loss of salvation. To practice sin, for instance, means to use a swear word in every sentence you utter and not when you use it in one little comment on the internet.

Edited by Thomas Lessing

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Carolyn

Do you disagree with this verses below:

When you are genuinely saved your name is written in to the book of Life and when it’s written in there it’s NEVER BLOTTED OUT.

    Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

    Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

    Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

    Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Is Jesus lying when he says He will never blot your name out of the book of Life?

Rob Diamond

To Thomas: (and Deborah)

I am truly sorry.
I will not do it again.

I meditate on and apply Col 4:6 (Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.) to my heart and mind.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Rob Diamond

Thank you, and no problem, now how about ya answering my questions eh :)

When you are genuinely saved your name is written in to the book of Life and once it’s written in there it’s NEVER BLOTTED OUT.

    Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

    Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

    Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Now, according to people who believe you can lose your salvation, the above two verses should send shock waves through your system, because either you are making up stories that you can lose your salvation, or you want Jesus to be a liar and you want Him to blot your name out of the Lambs book of life, where HE SAID that once it’s written in there He will NEVER REMOVE remove it.>

Carolyn

Debs, Thomas…when is our faith genuine? At what point do we “manifest” the life of God. At what point do we prove like Abraham did, that our faith is genuine…(Hebrews 11)…….is it only at the end of life that such a detail CAN be proved?

At what point can we say, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have overcome? How long are we to endure? To the end….perhaps that’s our answer then. If we continue to the end, unto death, abiding in him, repenting when we do sin, searching for him with all our hearts, then our faith will be proved genuine.

Obviously, not everyone that says they have faith, has faith. Obviously, not everyone who follows Jesus for awhile and then, like those who were following him for the bread and the miracles, could no longer accept his teachings about WHO he was and turned away. Where is the point where we say, I want this eternal life badly enough to forsake everything else and get on the narrow road, endure sufferings, temptations, rejections, trials, fears, frustrations, (my own sinful tendencies and repent of them) and attain to genuine faith/eternal life)?

Matthew 7:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Yes, I believe that those with genuine faith have their names written in the book of life, Abraham, for example, and it will never be blotted out.

And Sharon…there are examples of people who began to follow Jesus for the wrong reasons(political agendas) and their “unbelief” was exposed and they lost out. Judas is a prime example.

What I’m going to work on today is doing some study on this “genuine faith” that we talk about. Hebrews 11 gives some examples of those with genuine faith. James talks about the difference between genuine faith and a faithless faith.
I’ll be back.

Redeemed

Carolyn, I was going to stay out of this discussion as my time is so limited and I am overwhelmed at the moment with many cares and responsibilities and I am of advanced age, but I wanted to interject a thought.

First, thank you for hanging in there and continuing to reason together.

When one surrenders to Christ, one is born-again. That is an instantaneous irreversible event/transformation. That is justification.

Everything stems from that pivotal point in the life of a believer. We all start from different life circumstances and “baggage”, but the new birth is the same for everyone.

Our rate of growth in the faith depends much upon whether we are properly discipled or not. But the fact remains when that new birth occurs, the Bible says we are a new creation, a new creature. We did not earn our salvation and we cannot strive to keep it. We have choices to make and some will make good choices and some will make foolish choices. One brings positive consequences and the other negative consequences. But always the Lord is there and salvation is secure because Christ is the One Who keeps it.

Also at the new birth, one becomes a child of God. That is an irreversible event. When one has a biological child, even when that child disobeys, the relationship remains intact. But there are consequences.

Dear sister, if you could only grasp the concept that the born-again condition is irreversible! That does not mean that we take it for granted or that we wink at sin. As the Apostle Paul says, “God forbid!” God’s grace comes at a great price incomprehensible in its totality to us. We serve Him out of GRATITUDE, NOT obligation or duty! We serve Him out of LOVE for what He did for us, each one personally. We do not want to disappoint such a loving Father if we understand what He did for us, even on a human level.

Carolyn, our Father knows our frailties. That is why our Lord Jesus is in heaven making INTERCESSION for us. He is keeping our salvation secure! We cannot do it!

Would you please ponder these thoughts and respond about them? It is not my desire to contend – but to convince you of the enormity of God’s love for His own. It is such a blessed and edifying reality and it is my desire to share that blessing with others who are convinced they can lose their salvation.

God knows those who are truly His and those who are only pretending. He will sort it all out in His own timing. I just exhort those who are not living for Him to go back to square one and be sure of their salvation. There are so many false professions and false “gospels”.

May the Lord bless you and grant you His peace.

Sharon

Carolyn, I believe I said, someone who was truly saved then because of some sin lost their salvation. There are no true believers that have ever been, nor ever will be lost. What if someone lost their salvation and didn’t know it? Just which sin would make someone lose their salvation? I remember my grandfather saying, the only person that can live above sin is a person that rents a second floor apartment over a Tavern. :o) We all are sinners. Do I like the fact that I still sin? No.

When Adam sinned the old nature was passed along to all of us, saved and lost alike. Then when a person receives Jesus as savior there comes a new nature. New and Old are in battle constantly. Didn’t Paul basically say, the things I don’t want to do , I do. The things I should do, I don’t. Did that make Paul lost over and over, no of course not.

Human beings in our pride want “something” to do with our salvation. We know we cannot save ourselves. So if we cannot save ourselves then maybe the next best thing is keeping ourselves saved. If that is true then I am eternally lost. I could not save myself and I cannot keep myself saved.

Sad but true, God has many disobedient children. But the key word there is “children.” We are still HIS. True Christianity is the only belief system in the world of religions where we are not responsible to save ourselves. We can’t. We also can’t keep ourselves saved. We don’t have to murder the infidels to get to go to heaven. We don’t have to beat our bodies into a bloody pulp to put us in Higher Standing with God. We don’t have to give one penny to heavens bank account to secure us that Mansion with a great view.

OUR salvation is not about anything, anyone, anytime, anyplace. We simply respond to the glorious and simple gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the ONLY thing that is our part…receiving the gift by faith. Once we respond we receive, we then move up in status from Hell Bound Lost Sinner to a Sinner Saved By Grace! That is it. Every thing else is up to God. He called, we received, He saved and He keeps.

We grow in our faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Some grow in Him faster than others. Some stay on the “milk of the word” and remain mere babes in Christ even though they may have been saved for 30 years. Then there are others that have only been saved a very few years but can handle the “meat of the word.”

I told a friend of mine a few years ago that I no longer fear the Lord’s discipline because I deserve it. I am more concerned about hurting the Lord and what people may think of Him if I did something wrong. I still feel that way.

I’ve seen you post things here and that you believe you can lose your salvation. Have you ever done just that? How many times? Did you get Baptized after each new saving?

You would experience so very much freedom in Christ if you would let yourself believe the whole truth. Your love for the Lord is obvious in the things you post. But your pain shows too.

Carolyn, God isn’t interested in mind numbed robots. He is our ABBA! Our daddy, our heavenly Papa. My earthly daddy would never have disowned me no matter what I might have done. Would I have hurt him, yes. Would he demand that his blood be removed from my veins? No! That would be absurd. Even so is it with our Heavenly Father.

Do you believe that the Blood of Jesus washed you clean? Which sins were you forgiven for when you received Jesus as Savior?

When I or you or any other believer was saved we were INSTANTLY FORGIVEN FOR ALL, ALL, ALL of our sins. That means ALL of our past sins, present sins, and yes, even our future sins. All of our sin has been atoned for.

That of course is not God giving us a license to sin. After we grow in Him He grows more precious. The more I grow, the more I don’t want to do things I used to do. But as I said in another post, sometimes my humanity spews out all over me. But I’m still forgiven.

When you sin Carolyn God doesn’t see you, He sees Jesus Christ. Do you think God would trample through the blood of His only begotten Son to get at you and disown you? Absolutely not! He loved you enough to save you and loves you enough to keep you saved.

We the saved will continue to sin until we draw our last breath. We should confess this days trespasses. But this confession is not about our salvation, our kinship with God. Daily confession is about FELLOWSHIP. When we humble ourselves at the feet of Jesus and ask for cleansing for today…we keep that line of communication open between us and our Lord.

I pray you find peace with this issue because you will love the freedom it gives.

p.s. Judas was never saved. He lived good and holy before the other 11. Jesus knew who he was dealing with. When Jesus told the disciples at the last supper that one of them would betray him, they all asked is it I. None of them suspected Judas.

p.s.s. Only you and God knows if your faith is genuine.

Carolyn wrote:

Debs, Thomas…when is our faith genuine? At what point do we “manifest” the life of God. At what point do we prove like Abraham did, that our faith is genuine…(Hebrews 11)…….is it only at the end of life that such a detail CAN be proved?

At what point can we say, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have overcome? How long are we to endure? To the end….perhaps that’s our answer then. If we continue to the end, unto death, abiding in him, repenting when we do sin, searching for him with all our hearts, then our faith will be proved genuine.

Obviously, not everyone that says they have faith, has faith. Obviously, not everyone who follows Jesus for awhile and then, like those who were following him for the bread and the miracles, could no longer accept his teachings about WHO he was and turned away. Where is the point where we say, I want this eternal life badly enough to forsake everything else and get on the narrow road, endure sufferings, temptations, rejections, trials, fears, frustrations, (my own sinful tendencies and repent of them) and attain to genuine faith/eternal life)?

Matthew 7:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Yes, I believe that those with genuine faith have their names written in the book of life, Abraham, for example, and it will never be blotted out.

And Sharon…there are examples of people who began to follow Jesus for the wrong reasons(political agendas) and their “unbelief” was exposed and they lost out. Judas is a prime example.

What I’m going to work on today is doing some study on this “genuine faith” that we talk about. Hebrews 11 gives some examples of those with genuine faith. James talks about the difference between genuine faith and a faithless faith.
I’ll be back.

Sharon

Carolyn,

Here is what the Apostle John said about salvation and that we can know we are saved. That is exclusive to other belief systems. When we’re in Christ we know…all other religions can only hope they’re going to heaven.

1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Sharon

I do not understand why someone must have a “confession.” Whether it be the Westminster, London, one after another. There is only one totally Biblical confession of Faith in the New Testament. Here it is.

The following is the Petrine Confession of 32 AD.

I defy you to prove that it is inferior to the Heidelburg,
Belgic,
Helvetic,
Dordrecht,
London Baptist…..

or the Westminster Confessions…..

or to the Thirty Nine Articles of the Anglican Church…..

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

What is the Petrine Confession?

Answer: “…..we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Here is my question to you– What part of the Bible is deficient in such a way that you have an urgent need to have it restated for you by John Calvin, John Knox, Menno Simons, the Archbishop of Canterbury, or any other double domed high tully muck from Church History?

To say that an appended “confession” is essential to be added to the Apostle Peter’s confession above, or that Bible believer cannot be sure what they believe without an uninspired man-made short version of Truth, is blasphemy.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What part of verse 18 do you not understand?

Millions of alleged Christians know their “Confession” better than they know the Word of God. For allowing heretics and hirelings to lead you into sub-Christian documents, as final authority, will get you damnation.

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition (confession). 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Thomas Lessing wrote:

John Jean wrote:

When you read the language of Scripture you see the consistent contrast between those Jesus chose and those who constitute “the world,” whom Jesus would not pray for (John 17:9).

Calvinists have an uncanny way to change the meaning of “world” as they like. When they quote John 3:16 “world” constitutes only the world of the elect but when they quote John 17:9 it constitutes the world of the non-elect. Jesus said He did not pray for the world because He could not pray his High Priestly prayer for unbelievers. “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” was a prayer for unbelievers. John 17:9 does not mean that He never prayed for unbelievers.

I am prepared to debate you on one condition – that you first read Calvin’s “Institutes of the Christian Religion” and Martin LUther’s “Bondage of the Will.”

The Westminster Confession states:

“They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the degree of election (Westminster Confession of Faith (London: n.p., 1643), XVll:i,ii.)

Arthur Pink wrote,

“Those who speak of man’s `free will,’ and insist upon his inherent power to either accept or reject the Saviour, do but voice their ignorance of the real condition of Adam’s fallen children.” (Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Baker Book House, 2nd prtg. 1984),foreword to first edition, unnumbered first page.)

I can quote to you many other Calvinists who deny that man has a free-will.

Sharon

I’ve had a couple more thoughts since I posted to you about eternal security. If you try to compare yourself to other believers you will always be disappointed. You mentioned Hebs 11 concerning those mentioned there and their faith. Those are Old Testament examples. None of us are an Abraham, Isaac etc.

Are you struggling concerning your own salvation Carolyn? Sometimes people make salvation harder than what it really is. Remember in Acts when the jailer asked Paul, what must I do to be saved? Pauls answer was simple, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That’s it, simple faith. There was no having to anguish and pray til he broke through. Believe.

The Christian life is a day by day, sometimes moment by moment and sometimes mundane life. We get up, go to work, take care of our families and put our trust in God. Not all of us are called into the limelight. Not all of us have large titles and vast audiences listening to us sing or teach. Most Christians are just everyday folks, that love the Lord and do what He wants us to do.

I have had this thought….God holds a contest to see who was the most important of his kids. Well, it would have to be Paul right? Or maybe Mary. Then again it might be Peter, Joanna, the woman at the well. It must be John the Baptist. I can’t help but wonder if it isn’t Miss Pat, she kept the nursery for 38 years. Never late, always faithful and took care of kids of kids that she watched over.

When it comes to feeling unimportant in Gods family, there is no need because we all hold the same title…HIS!

I hope Deb-ster and Thomas will help you find the peace you seem to desperately need.

carolyn wrote:

Debs, Thomas…when is our faith genuine? At what point do we “manifest” the life of God. At what point do we prove like Abraham did, that our faith is genuine…(Hebrews 11)…….is it only at the end of life that such a detail CAN be proved?

At what point can we say, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have overcome? How long are we to endure? To the end….perhaps that’s our answer then. If we continue to the end, unto death, abiding in him, repenting when we do sin, searching for him with all our hearts, then our faith will be proved genuine.

Obviously, not everyone that says they have faith, has faith. Obviously, not everyone who follows Jesus for awhile and then, like those who were following him for the bread and the miracles, could no longer accept his teachings about WHO he was and turned away. Where is the point where we say, I want this eternal life badly enough to forsake everything else and get on the narrow road, endure sufferings, temptations, rejections, trials, fears, frustrations, (my own sinful tendencies and repent of them) and attain to genuine faith/eternal life)?

Matthew 7:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Yes, I believe that those with genuine faith have their names written in the book of life, Abraham, for example, and it will never be blotted out.

And Sharon…there are examples of people who began to follow Jesus for the wrong reasons(political agendas) and their “unbelief” was exposed and they lost out. Judas is a prime example.

What I’m going to work on today is doing some study on this “genuine faith” that we talk about. Hebrews 11 gives some examples of those with genuine faith. James talks about the difference between genuine faith and a faithless faith.
I’ll be back.

Sharon

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Carolyn here is what my grandfather used to preach, my brother still preaches and my dad taught. There are two different books to be judged by. The Book of Life. This is the book where the names of all people that ever lived. The second book is the Lambs Book of Life and are the names of all the saved folks.

One day it will be time to open the books, to settle the account with God. This is NOT the judgment of the saved.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
When God judges the dead/lost he will see that their name is not in the Lambs Book of Life, meaning they do not know Jesus as Savior. When Jesus announces this, then the names of those lost people will be erased from the Book of Life. Remember the Book of life is where all of humanity is named. Their name will be erased as if they never existed and then they will be cast into hell.

Remember also…these are two different books. One is names of every person that has ever lived. The second is the names of the saved and will never be blotted out.

I do pray you find truth and the peace that comes in knowing Jesus as your Savior forever.

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

Carolyn

Do you disagree with this verses below:

When you are genuinely saved your name is written in to the book of Life and when it’s written in there it’s NEVER BLOTTED OUT.
Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”

Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.

Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…

Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Is Jesus lying when he says He will never blot your name out of the book of Life?

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Carolyn

>> Yes, I believe that those with genuine faith have their names written in the book of life, Abraham, for example, and it will never be blotted out.

Woahh, you are not reading these scriptures properly.. ‘like Abraham’ you say, this verse is not about Abraham but about Clement AND OTHER PEOPLE in the New Testament.

If you notice their names ARE written in the Lambs book of life WHILE THEY are still very much alive and kicking. So it shows that the moment you are genuinely saved and the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you, your name is written into the Lambs book of Life. You don’t have to work your whole life though PROVING yourself to God that you are saved to have your name written into the Lambs book of life in the end. This is what Catholics believes – that you have to work your whole life through proving yourself to God. Methodists and Presbyterians also believe you can lose your salvation. The truth of the matter is that the Holy Spirit seals you and convicts you every time you sin, and you grow and He fills you, but when you sin, He chastises you and brings you back to Him.

READ THOSE VERSES AGAIN:

Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names ARE in the book of life.”

Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Carolyn, it breaks my heart to know that you don’t know if you have genuine faith or not. Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Do you love Jesus Christ with all you heart? Do you know for a fact that the Holy Spirit abides in you and teaches you and guides you? It is the Holy Spirit that MAKES YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE SECURE! He is the one who seals yous. Jesus does not lie, the Holy Spirit will never give you a wonderful feeling of security if it was all a big lie besides the scriptures back it up.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

sharon

>> To say that an appended “confession” is essential to be added to the Apostle Peter’s confession above, or that Bible believer cannot be sure what they believe without an uninspired man-made short version of Truth, is blasphemy.

and

Millions of alleged Christians know their “Confession” better than they know the Word of God. For allowing heretics and hirelings to lead you into sub-Christian documents, as final authority, will get you damnation.

Absolutely true.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Thanks Redeemed!! :)

Carolyn

Last post here:

I am not “desperately needing peace as Sharon has read into my comments. ALL of you are distorting my words.

You have fed me a lot of denominational dogma from your own denominations. For example, Redeemed said, Our rate of growth in the faith depends much upon whether we are properly discipled or not. No it doesn’t. It depends on how good our very own soil is in accepting the Word planted in us.

Thomas, you ran together some of my thoughts when you said: “In which Bible book do we find this verse: “Manifest the life of God in your life like Abraham did and you shall be saved”. and came up with a total distortion.

Here’s my thought on Judas who walked with the Truth…Did Judas’ eternal life depend on God’s faithfulness alone? Did Abrahams faith depend only on God’s faithfulness or was he also responsible for his own obedience? How about Billy Graham? Will we see him in heaven, because he confessed and believed the gospel at one time. God has not changed. Our ability to rebel has not changed, even after initial conversion to the faith.

Debs. …”to the end”. Jesus said it, not the Catholics. Mark 13:13
Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Guys…stop. No more confusing arguments. Read the Word for yourselves and listen to it. Open your ears and eyes and do what it says. Apart from that, I can offer nothing more than what I’ve already said. I’m not angry, just done. And gone…till we meet on the other side.

Sharon

I agree with you my friend. When visiting in the state of Tennessee at my best friends I noticed her church recites the “Apostles Creed.” I will NEVER EVER quote such a document. While I realize Catholic means “universal” I will not recite I believe in the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church, no way, never ever.

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

sharon

>> To say that an appended “confession” is essential to be added to the Apostle Peter’s confession above, or that Bible believer cannot be sure what they believe without an uninspired man-made short version of Truth, is blasphemy.

and

Millions of alleged Christians know their “Confession” better than they know the Word of God. For allowing heretics and hirelings to lead you into sub-Christian documents, as final authority, will get you damnation.

Absolutely true.

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