Heaven is For Real – This Story is Not

Heaven is for Real

Heaven is for Real – This Story is Definitely Not

Today I will give a review of “Heaven is for Real – A little boys astounding story of his trip to heaven and back”.  I went to a local Christian book store called CUM Books stores here in South Africa to find hundreds of copies of this book stacked under the ‘Best Selling’ section.  I picked one up and thought to myself, “Satan’s smart, he is now using little kids to sell his story.”

To give a brief summary of the story, little Colton aged 4, complains of stomach pains and runs a high fever.  His parents, Todd and Sonja Burpo take him to a hospital where the doctor fails to diagnose the problem. The little boy is now deteriorating to such an extent that they remove him out of the hospital and take him to another one where he is diagnosed for a burst appendix.  Rushed into surgery, little Colton while on the surgery table experiences something many people never do.  He apparently goes to Heaven and meets Jesus.  After he is home he starts to recount his story to his parents, as best as a 4 year old can, of his trip to Heaven and back.

There have been many books written by many people on their supposed trips of Heaven where they meet a ‘Jesus’ type person. One being Choo Thomas’ “Heaven is so Real” and then Don Piper’s “90 Minutes in Heaven”, who just happens to endorse Heaven is For Real.  In the front of the book on the ‘Praise for Heaven is For Real’ pages, there are praises from 12 different people telling you why you should by this book, all reasoning as to why Colton’s story is just as good as that of the bible, and why you should “allow a little child to lead you.— Don Piper, Speaker and Author, 90 Minutes in Heaven

Todd Burpo is a pastor at a Wesleyan church.  This helps to cement the trap.  First we the reader would surmise that a 4 year old child would never lie like (Alex Malarkey “The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven”), and to top things off the father of the child is a pastor – Satan would never go after a 4 year old child of a pastor, would he? Especially if the pastor is biblical sound in his doctrine, or is he?  Throughout the book Heaven is for Real Todd Burpo points to scripture to try and back up his sons ‘visions’ but with terrible inaccuracy.  For anyone not knowing scripture, they would agree with Todd, being non the wiser.  After all he is a pastor, he should not be telling untruths to his church, let alone the whole world.

Heaven is for Real and it’s problematic areas:

I am now going to take you through the book Heaven is for Real, looking at all the problematic areas.  We are going to deal with this book biblically which includes being logical.  God gave us a brain to use – let’s use it.

False visions from Colton:

1)  On page xix of Heaven is for Real,when Colton first tells his parents about his trip to Heaven he states that the angels sang to him. He says, “Dad, Jesus had the angels sing to me because I was so scared.  They made me feel better” ..at the time… “I was sitting on Jesus lap”.  Now Colton was scared because he was having surgery.  Immediately we have a problem with this statement.  If you are sitting on Jesus Christ’s lap, surely you will not be scared? But yet Colton is scared and this Jesus figure has to get the angels to sing to him in order to make him feel better.   The bible tells us:

John 14:27  “27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”

Philippians 4:7  “And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”

2)  Colton tells his father about Jesus’ horse, he says; “Hey dad, did you know Jesus has a horse?”….”Yeah a rainbow horse, I got to pet him.  There’s lots of colors”.  pg. 63

In Heaven is for Real, Jesus has a horse that resembles that of a My Little Pony? And we as Christians are supposed to believe this? Rainbows are also very significant in New Age teaching.–(This we will discuss in more detail later).  Todd tries to justify his son’s vision by telling us about scripture of “the rainbow colours described in the book of Revelationpg. 66

3) Colton also tells his father that this Jesus figure had a crown; “Yeah a crown, and it had this… this diamond thing in the middle of it and it was kind of pink…” pg.66

In Heaven is for Real, it would appear that the Jesus of Colton’s vision not only has a My Litte Pony but appears ‘plastic’ as well.  A pink like stone in his crown? Who are we kidding here! The Jesus that appeared to Colton certainly does not look anything Jesus Christ the Son of God as spoken about in the book of Revelation – visions given to John.  Now this vision we can believe because it’s in the bible:

Revelation 1:12-16  “I turned to see whose voice it was that was speaking to me and when I had turned I saw seven golden lamp stands, and among these lampstands I saw someone ‘like a Son of Man’. He was dressed in a long robe with a golden girdle around his breast; his head and his hair were white as snow-white wool, his eyes blazed like fire, and his feet shone as the finest bronze glows in the furnace. His voice had the sound of a great waterfall, and I saw that in his right hand he held seven stars. A sharp two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face was ablaze like the sun at its height.

The Purple Sash

4) Colton also says his Jesus wore white with a purple sash in his book Heaven is for Real he says, “Jesus was the only one in heaven who had purple on, Dad Did you know that? pg 65

Todd then tries to confuse the reader of Heaven is for Real by saying the following,  “In scripture, purple is the color of kings. A verse from the gospel of Mark flashed through my mind:  “His clothes became dassling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them” pg 65.

If we look at this scripture what Todd is referring too, it says nothing of purple.  This is when Jesus was transfigured (Mark 9:3).  The only time Jesus had purple on was just before he was going to be crucified.  Note, he was being clothed as a human King – Jesus Christ is now King of all Kings.  He is not Colton’s description of a Jesus figure, which is more like a fairy-tale Jesus.

Mark 15:17  “And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head”

Mark 15:20  “And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.”

Later on in the article we will have a look at what Colton’s Jesus actually looks like – yes we have a picture.

5) Something that stuns Colton’s father into submission is the fact that Colton’s Jesus showed him his hands and feet and Colton says, “Jesus has markers” pg 65

Todd does not understand that this Jesus in Heaven is for Real is not the real Jesus Christ of the Bible;  a vision and the reality of Jesus Christ really returning to earth are completely two different things.  Yes when Jesus Christ returns we will see the marks of where he was nailed to the cross, but this vision of Colton’s is a vision and another Jesus.  Satan can mimic anything he wants too.

6) Todd asks Colton what everyone looks like in heaven and Colton replies, “Everybody’s got wings.” pg 72 informing his father that everyone sort of looks like angels.

This is absolutely incorrect. We know from scripture that we will most probably look the same as we did on earth, but we will be perfect in every sense of the word. We also know from scripture that the resurrection of believers’ physical bodies has yet to take place, anyone who dies and is destined for Heaven, their form now in Heaven must lack physical attributes.   Just to note:  Some people were raised from the dead and transformed at the time of Jesus Christ’s resurrection.  Matthew 27:52 says that their “bodies…were raised.”  But do they have wings? No they do not.  Philippians 3:21 says that Jesus “will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.”  Does Jesus have wings? No he does not.  We are made in the image of God according to Genesis 1:27, does God have wings? No He does not.  Is Colton’s Jesus pulling this child’s leg and everyone else who believes him?  Yes he is.

7) Another strange addition to our bodies in Heaven is for Real is that in heaven is a halo.  Colton tells his father that, “All people have a light above their head”.  pg 73 To try and persuade the reader that dear little Colton is telling the truth Todd goes on to tell us about angels in the bible and “when angels show up, they’re sometimes dazzlingly bright, blinding almost”. pg 73  He also tells us about Stephen who’s “face became as bright as an angel’s” pg 73  not long after he was stoned to death.

Hmm, and what has that got to do with people in heaven having “lights about their heads?” Nothing.  Again Todd’s examples from scripture to try prove his point are ridiculous to say the least. Interestingly enough Todd does say that he actually can’t “…remember angels having lights over their heads specifically-or halos, as some would call them.” pg 74  But never the less chooses to believe his sons story as being true and goes on to tell the rest of the world a lie.

8) In Heaven is for Real, Colton meets his grandfather and his little sister in heaven.  It would appear that everyone goes to Heaven because his little sister tells Colton that she can’t wait to meet her parents (Todd and Sonja) one day in heaven.  What would happen if either Todd or Sonja were to reject the Gospel? Would the little sister’s hope be crushed?

Colton’s little long lost sister tells him that God (who is called Jesus’ dad) – adopts all babies that have died. Now this story of God adopting children will pull at the heartstrings of a billion mothers who have lost children through miscarriage and other tragedies.  The pain of losing a child is unlike anything a parent should face. But now we have the story Heaven is for Real by the Burpo’s, tapping into the heartache of millions of women (like it did with Sonja Burpo) and blinding them into believing that the vision Colton experienced was true; that he was indeed in Heaven and that the Jesus he met was indeed the true Biblical Jesus, when we know, based on all the evidence that Colton’s experience was demonic.

Who’s on the left side?

9) Colton explains to his father that Jesus sits on the right hand side of his ‘dad’.  Todd then asks who sits on the left side and Colton replies, “Oh, that’s easy, Dad, That’s where the angel Gabriel is, He is really nice”. pg 101  This is another lie. No where in the bible does it tell us who sits on the left side of God because there is no left side, only a right side.

“In (Ephesians 1:19-21) here we see God exalting Jesus above all others by seating Him at the right hand of the Father.”

“The term “God’s right hand” in prophecy also refers to the Messiah to whom is given the power and authority to subdue His enemies (Psalm 110:1; Psalm 118:16)”

The fact that Jesus Christ is at the “right hand of God” was a sign to the disciples that Jesus had indeed gone to heaven. In John 16:7-15, Jesus told the disciples that He had to go away and He would send the Holy Spirit. So the coming of the Holy Spirit in the upper room on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-13) was positive proof that Jesus was indeed in heaven seated at the right hand of God. This is confirmed in Romans 8:34 where the Apostle Paul writes that Christ is sitting at God’s right hand making intercession for us.

Therefore, what we can say that “God’s right hand” refers to the Messiah, the LORD Jesus Christ and He is of equal position, honor, power and authority with God (John 1:1-5). The fact that Christ is “sitting” refers to the fact that His work of redemption is done and when the fullness of the gentiles is brought in (Romans 11:25), Christ’s enemies will be made His footstool as the end of the age comes, all prophecy is completed, and time is no more.”  –http://www.gotquestions.org/right-hand-God.html

The Holy Spirit

10) But it get’s worse, Colton tells his father that he sat with the Holy Spirit and it was kinda hard to describe him, other than “he’s kinda blue”.  Colton was sitting by the Holy Spirit (in Heaven) praying for his father because as Colton said to his dad, “You needed the Holy Spirit, so I prayed for you”.  pg 102 This is a very telling statement.  The bible tells us that when you become a Christian the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you.

John 14:16-18  16 “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,  17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.  18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you”

Romans 8:9-11 “9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17  16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Corinthians 6:1919 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?”

Todd is supposed to be a Pastor, and Todd is a professing Christian yet according to Colton’s Jesus, he does not have the Holy Spirit in him. This means that the following verses and many more applies to Todd Burpo:

Matthew 7:21-23  “21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied [preached] in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

11) To make matters even worse Colton says that the Holy Spirit shoots down power to his dad when he is preaching in church, “It’s the Holy Spirit, “I watched him, He showed me”… ” He shoots down power for you when you are talking in church.pg 126  This is totally unscriptural.  Because we have proved above that the Holy Spirit abides in born again believers here on earth.  The Holy Spirit does not give you power either.  This Holy Spirit that Colton speaks of is false, along with it’s Jesus.

John 16:7-15  “7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Rainbows in Heaven is for Real

12) Colton becomes obsessed with rainbows.  Even to the point that he prays for a rainbow and one supposedly appears in the sky the following day. Todd Burbo uses the one and only scripture of Revelation 4:3 to try and backup his sons visions. “And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.”

Because we know from everything else that we have read that there is something seriously demonic regarding Colton’s visions, therefore it’s only obvious to look at New Age teaching regarding Rainbows to see what they have to say.  I did an article here on the 7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras, please read.

This is what New Ager’s have to say about the Rainbow:

“The experience of seeing the colours of the rainbow, when the sun is shining and it has been raining, is one we all can share. The experience often has a magical quality to it as though it is stirring some deep inner response. Such is the wonder of the light that forms the colours of the rainbow.The heavenly principle is to GIVE AS WE RECEIVE. We are not intended to absorb the light of the rainbow, enlightenment, joy and happiness, rather we are intended to transmit it; and in doing so to unfold its meaning for others, and for ourselves too.”     http://www.spiritualwisdom.org.uk/colours-of-the-rainbow.htm

“The rainbow represents the regenerate spiritual person – one who has lived out the path of enlightenment, whose potential has opened out like the lotus flower of the east, each stage represented by a new colour developing out of the one before.

The main seven colours symbolise wholeness or holiness. There are a variety of rainbows sometimes seen around those in the spiritual realms – the rainbow of the ‘aura’, as it is sometimes called, picturing the spiritual state of the person.

Yoga teaches that there are seven centers or chakras in the human body. These are spiritual centers – you will not find them described in a materialistic medical book.”    http://www.spiritualwisdom.org.uk/colours-of-the-rainbow2.htm

Akiane and Colton Burpo’s Christ

13) In the book, Heaven is for Real, The Burpo’s were themselves totally obsessed with finding out what Colton’s Jesus looked like “…as pastor, I wound up spending a lot of time at hospitals, in Christian bookstores, and at other churches–all places where there are lots of drawings and paintings of Christ….When we came across a picture of Jesus we’d ask Colton, “What about this one? Is that what Jesus looks like?’ pg 93.  Finally Todd came across information of a girl by the the name of Akiane Kramarik who too had began having visions at the age of four.   And as it turns out her descriptions of Heaven appear to be the same as Colton’s – so they say.  Akiane is a Prodigy and paints the most beautiful paintings, “she states that God has given her the visions and abilities to create her artwork” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiane_Kramarik.  One of her paintings is that of the Christ of her visions, she calls him her ‘Prince of Peace’.  Colton, turned to his dad when he saw Akiane’s Jesus and said, “Dad, that one’s right.” pg 145.

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What does the bible tell us:

Exodus 20:4-5  4You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

That applies to images of Jesus too, be it statues, or any other religious paintings, even the movies. It leads to idolatry, breeds superstition and leads to occultism.  If Jesus wanted us to know what he looked like there would be a full description of Him in the bible, but He has not because we are to believe by FAITH.

Corinthians 5:7  “7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.”

1 Peter 1:8 “8 whom having not seenyou love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory”

John 20:29  “29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Therefore all and I mean all representations of Jesus are false and have no backing by scripture.

Akiane is now 16 years old, this is what she has to say about Jesus,

“Jesus shared with us: ‘I am the way, the truth and the light. No one comes to my Father, but through me.’ I feel that he invited us to participate in the divinity. Each of us is one of kind [ sic ] original path to the way of truth and light, and without our individual love and effort we cannot understand and reach God”  [Emphasis added]  http://akiane.com/blog/?tag=akiane.

She rejects Jesus as being the only way for mankind to be reconciled to God. She opposes what Jesus Christ taught in favor of Satan’s promise of divinity to Eve in Genesis:3:5. Akiane has clearly met another Jesus and if Colton’s Jesus looks the same as Akiane’s then we can be certain that Colton’s Jesus is anti-Christ too.

14) Besides all the other unbiblical nonsense that Colton saw in his ‘trip to Heaven’ that was penned down in his book Heaven is for Real, the one that will bring fear into people the most is the one where he speaks of the coming war. “There’s going to be a war, and it’s going to destroy this world.  Jesus and the angels and the good people are going to fight against Satan and the monsters and the bad people. I saw it”.  pg 136  Colton tells his father that he saw his father fighting in the war too, fighting for Jesus who wins the war in the end.  The problem with this eschatological view (the study of the end times) is that it’s wrong.  The Body of Christ (Church) are ‘raptured’ to Heaven before the Tribulation starts. The ‘church’ that remains is but the false church of the antiChrist – the Roman Catholic church who have it as their mission to take over Jerusalem for themselves.  The time of the 7 year tribulation is for Israel – and everything will happen in Israel.  God turns back to Israel as he seals 144,000 Jewish witness to do the preaching instead of gentiles along with the 2 witnesses mentioned in the Book of Revelation.  Anyone who professes Jesus Christ as their saviour will be beheaded. The time of the Tribulation is for God’s Wrath upon the earth. God deals with mankind and the anti-Christ very severely – but will mankind repent? No.  If Todd Burpo is still going to be on earth during the Tribulation according to Colton’s vision he has then missed the ‘Blessed Hope’. (Titus 2:13)

See all these articles on the rapture here:  Rapture, Caught Up, The First Resurrection

Colton is the new Jesus. 

15) Colton’s babysitter, Ali, one night hears Colton’s story regarding his sister in heaven and that he missed her terribly. Ali, shocked at his story ends up crying her heart out.  She is deeply touched. Ali had grown up in a Christian home but had entertained doubts regarding her faith, for e.g., not knowing if all religions lead to the same God or not. “But Colton’s story about his sister strengthened her Christian faith” pg 130

So Colton’s story is more impressive than anything the Bible could offer.  Even though the Bible is TRUE and Colton’s story is not. Satan loves to use emotions to tug at the heartstrings of unsuspecting victims. And he is bargaining on you not going to the Bible to check to see if what he is telling you is true or not.  And the longer you refrain from testing these evil spirits, the deeper and deeper you are pulled into deception through more false teaching, until you are completely swallowed up with no where to go.

Paul’s Rapture, John’s Prophecies and Lazarus and the Rich Man:

16) On page 80 of Heaven is for Real, Todd tells us about the Apostle Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth in 2 Corinthians 12 about a man he knew personally (obviously, Paul himself) who was caught up to Heaven. And Todd also tells us about the Apostle John who had an angel appear to him and he penned a number of prophecies and described Heaven in great detail.  Todd then quotes scripture from the Book of Revelation

Revelation 4:1-3  “1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was  like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.”

Basically Todd is trying to convince the reader that Colton’s vision is equal to that of Paul and John, but if Todd was a genuine Christian Pastor he would know the following:

“If I told you that I had recently visited there and only communicated what I knew was recorded in the Bible about it, you couldn’t object to what I said on the basis of my being biblically inaccurate. Accuracy, however, is not the only criterion for biblical discernment. There are many other instructions and examples that we must take into consideration. For example, the Apostle Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 12 of a “man in Christ” (no doubt Paul himself) who was caught up to Heaven. He didn’t know at the time whether it was an experience in which his spirit had left his body, or a vision while his spirit remained in his body. Nevertheless, he states that what he saw and heard in paradise was not lawful for a man to utter. Paul’s experience was followed by a humbling infirmity, which he states that God allowed him to suffer lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations… (2 Corinthians:12:6-7)

That isn’t always the case in Scripture. The Apostle John obviously was given permission to declare what he witnessed in Heaven in the Book of Revelation. This would seemingly apply as well to the writer of the Book of Job.

But can we be sure that the visions and personal experiences of these writers are true? Absolutely–because their words are found in the Scriptures . Of the Word of God, the psalmist writes, “Thy word is true from the beginning…,” and Jesus said, “Thy word is truth” (Psalm:119:160; John:17:17).  That is the ultimate verification that the experiences of those men of God indeed took place as they described. Furthermore, since the canon of Scripture was closed in the first century A.D., no one since that time can have his vision of-or his alleged visit to–Heaven  validated in the same way.

Jesus gave us another insight to help our discernment when He told of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man, who had died, was in a place where he was tormented and suffering remorse. Yet he begged Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers so that they would not end up with him in “this place of torment.” Abraham’s response was: “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.” And again, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead (Luke:16:19-31)  [Emphasis added] —  http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/search-the-scriptures-daily/read/articles/is-heaven-is-for-real-for-real-an-exercise-in-discernment-13365.html

Todd Burpo’s deceptive faith:

17) On page 62, Todd Burpo was still trying to come to terms with Colton’s story, he said, “If Colton really had a supernatural encounter, I certainly didn’t want to ask him leading questions. We had taught Colton about our faith all his life. But if he really had seen Jesus and the angels, I wanted to become the student, not the teacher!”

Todd himself would appear to be duped and does not approve in proper biblical testing as per 1 John 4:1-6.  He instead says that we must “be willing to accept reality and to call things what they are even when it is hard”. pg 75  So even though Colton’s story might be a bit hard to swallow, just believe it with childlike faith.

Todd also wanted to become a student of a 4 year old child instead of taking instruction from Jesus Christ (The Word of God).  Is a 4 year old child now more truthful than the Word of God?  The Bible  says:

2 Timothy 3:15-17  “17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”

Mark 13:31 “31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Proverbs 30:5 (Amp)  “5Every word of God is tried and purified; He is a shield to those who trust and take refuge in Him.”

18) On page 82 of Heaven is for Real, we are told that “Roman Catholics practice confession as a sacrament, sharing their sins and shortcomings with a priest.  Protestants practice confession too, though a little less formally, often confiding in God without an intermediary.”  When I started reading this book I kept my eyes peeled for the Roman Catholic connection and was not really surprised when it showed up.

1) Catholics practice confession, genuine Christians do no not practice confession.  Christians ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sin. 2) Confession and asking for forgiveness (repenting) is two different things.  3) The statement by Todd that he confides to “God without an intermediary” is very concerning for the bible says,

1 Tim 2:5 “5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

Todd prays to the Holy Spirit.

19) He says, “I breathed a ‘prayer of thanks’ to the Holy Spirit, who had clearly “shot down power,” giving me an answer for this grieving woman…” pg 146  Well we know that Todd lacks Jesus Christ as an intermediary, so he needs a new substitute; the holy spirit (lower case because it’s a false spirit)

No where in the bible are we told to pray to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will always point you to Jesus Christ the Son of God.

John 14:26 “26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

John 16:14  “14 Jesus speaking of the Holy Spirit said, “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you

The bible does tell us the following about the Holy Spirit regarding prayer:

Romans 8:26  “26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”

Jude 1:20 “…build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.”

Scripture suggests that we pray “in the Holy Spirit”, which means we permit the Holy Spirit to guide our prayers and give us the right words to say, and during times when we don’t know what to say, the Holy Spirit automatically prays on our behalf with words that cannot be uttered, because He knows exactly what we need.  This new idea that we pray to the Holy Spirit is a New Age concept – The false New Age holy spirit represents the 6th Chakra or the Third Eye.

When we pray, we can pray to God our Heavenly Father – Psalm 5:2 “Listen to my cry for help, my King and my God, for to you I pray”.   To the Lord Jesus Christ, we pray as to the Father because they are equal.  Or you can pray to our Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ – it does not matter, what ever makes you happy. Prayer to one member of the Trinity is prayer to all, because all three are One.  Stephen, when he was being martyred, prayed –  Acts 7:59 “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” .  We are also to pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Paul said, that we are always give –  Ephesians 5:20 “thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” .  There is no fixed rule, to add a rule on how to address God is wrong.

Jesus Christ’s crucifixion

20) On page 149 in Heaven is for Real, Todd makes the most unbelievable statement regarding Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, he says, “The scripture says that as Jesus gave up his spirit, as he sagged there, lifeless on that Roman cross, God the Father turn his back. I am convinced that he did that because if he had kept on watching, he couldn’t have gone through with it”   This kind of thinking is very similar to a man by the name of John Dominic Crossan’s (Jesus Seminar), who has had a great influence the Emergent church:

“If we are to believe that God deliberately sent his only son into the world to be brutally tortured and crucified, then I take that to be transcendental child abuse, and I will not have it.”  — John Dominic Crossan, Speech at Duke University Conference on “Jesus in Context: Who Was He?”, February 19-21, 1998

For the undiscerning reader reading this book and does not understand the crucifixion, let me please explain so that you may know the truth and nothing but the truth, because you are not going to get it from Todd Burpo.

Isaiah 53:10  “10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. “

“And about the ninth hour Jesus “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46. This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1.

Isaiah 53:4-5 tells us that  Jesus “bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed” and Galatians 3:13 tells us “He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us”.

In those awful moments on the cross, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him.   2 Corinthians 5:21For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” and  1 John 2:2 “2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” – and because of that God had to “turn away” from Jesus.   As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity.  Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.

But then Jesus cried out from the cross,  when Jesus uttered those words, John 19:30 “It is Finished”  He was declaring the debt by mankind (the debt of sin) owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever.

The Catholic connection.

21)  One of the biggest warning signs today for a genuine Christian is to note any Roman Catholic connection.  Todd says on page 152 in Heaven is for Real, “A lot of our Catholic friends have asked whether Colton saw Mary, the mother of Jesus.  The answer to that is also yes. He saw Mary kneeling before the throne of God and at times, standing besides Jesus. “She still loves him like a mom”.    The Roman Catholic Church is spoken off in the book of Revelation as:

Revelation 17:4-6  “4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:   MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.   6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.”

The Catholic Mary (Queen of Heaven) is non other than a demonic goddess posing as Jesus’ mother.  “The Queen of Heaven in the bible is a Babylonian goddess whom people worshiped.  She has been incarnated to Roman Catholicism under the name ‘Mary’, Mary-Queen of Heaven.  Many Catholics would deny that Mary worship is part of Catholicism but unfortunately this is not true as she holds a special place in the hearts of many.” — Please read more on Mary Queen of Heaven – Whore of Babylon

Jeremiah 7:18 (Amp)   “18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger!

Conclusion:

As you can see from the heaps of evidence above that was taken directly from Heaven is for Real that the ‘altered states of consciousness’ that Colton experienced was not genuine.  Why? Is is due to his fathers sin of following after false doctrines. Have the Burpo’s delved into things, i.e, contemplative spirituality, that they should have not been delving into.  Is this story even a lie?  What ever it is, one thing is very clear, the story is not true, and if you choose to follow after this false Jesus with a pink stone in his crown and a pink pony, you will be following after a New Age Jesus.  The bible says:

2 Timothy 4:1-5  “1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Peter

Thomas :

What more do you want?

Bible’s verse that say that visions and dreams will stop the day the written Word of God is completed.

Sure you can judge if you have a strong evidence of verses. But since until now you still haven’t show the verses in the Bible that say that visions and dreams will stop the day the written Word of God is completed, then how can you judge? Because if you can’t show the verse to back up that statement, then anybody can say that you teach a false teaching ;)

And till now you still haven’t answered my 2nd question about the why “last days” and not “last day”

Eunice

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

Dario,
You keep on telling me that I do not answer your questions. The same accusation applies to you. Answer me a very simple question. Do you agree with the following statements?
There is no one, O most holy Mary. .. who can be saved or redeemed but through thee…. (-St. Germanus)
This very clearly says that no one can be saved or redeemed but through Mary. It simply means that anyone who does not pray to Mary and asks her to obtain Mercy from Jesus on his/her behalf, is not saved.
Yes, of course Mary was the vessel God used to bring the Messiah into the world, but it doesn’t mean that she is the one by and through whom grace/salvation is dispensed to fallen mankind.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee do I entrust my soul…. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased. But one thing I fear; that, in the hour of temptation, I may neglect to call on thee, and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins…. (One of many prayers in the popular booklet Devotions in Honor of Our Mother of Perpetual Help)
I close with this statement to which you gave no answer. And I am quoting from Dave Hunt’s book “A Woman Rides the Beast.”
As we have noted, heresy brings automatic excommunication. Even one papal heretic, if he were not restored by repenting of his heresy, would break the line of alleged apostolic succession back to Peter. As we have shown, there were many popes who were accused of heresy by other popes and by the councils, and a number were formally excommunicated.
Pope Adrian VI (1522-3), who personally pronounced Pope Celestine III (1191-8) a heretic, declared that John XXII was only one in a long line of papal heretics.
Among the earliest known heretics to sit on Peter’s alleged throne was Liberius (352-66). Forced into exile because of a quarrel with the emperor, Liberius was offered repatriation if he would denounce Athanasius, who had led the fight against the Arian heresy. No stickler for doctrine, Liberius obliged the emperor and thereby sided with those who said that the Son was less than the Father-an opinion which the Church has consistently denounced as heresy of the worst sort.
Heretical popes came along quite regularly. Innocent I (401-17) and Gelasius I (492-6) proclaimed that babies went straight to hell (not Purgatory) if they died, though baptized, before receiving communion. After all, if one takes John 6:53 literally-”Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have no life in you”-as Catholicism teaches, then these popes were correct. That view was condemned as heresy by the Council of Trent.
During the last two years of his pontificate, Sixtus V (158590) rewrote the entire Latin Bible, adding phrases and sentences at whim, leaving out entire verses, changing the titles of the Psalms, and inventing his own system of chapters and verses. In a Papal Bull Aeternus Ille (an allegedly infallible declaration on faith and morals to the entire Church), he declared by “the fullness of Apostolical power” that this new “translation” of the Bible must be “received and held as true, lawful, authentic and unquestioned in all public and private discussions, readings, preachings and explanations.” Anyone who disobeyed was to be excommunicated. Of course, when the clergy saw the pope’s astonishing handiwork, which instantly had made obsolete the Council of Trent’s approved Latin Bible and all textbooks based upon it, they were horrified. Fortunately, Sixtus died a few months later and a cover-up was devised by Bellarmine. As de Rosa explains: “A Bible had been imposed with the plenitude of papal power, complete with the trimmings of excommunication, on the whole church-and it was riddled with errors. The academic world was in turmoil; Protestants were deriving enormous pleasure and amusement from the predicament of the Roman church. On 11 November 1590, Bellarmine returned to Rome…. Personally relieved that Sixtus, who had wanted him on the Index [of forbidden books and authors], was dead, he feared for the prestige of the papacy…. Bellarmine advised the [new] pope to lie. Some of his admirers have disputed this. Their task is formidable. The options were plain: admit publicly that a pope had erred on a critical matter of the Bible or engage in a cover-up whose outcome was unpredictable. Bellarmine proposed the latter.”
Bellarmine and a group of dedicated scholars sworn to secrecy went to work and in about six months corrected the past pope’s errors. A new edition of the “Sixtus Bible” was published as though it were merely another printing of the same, and a massive effort was made to recover the original copies of the heretical publication, which were then destroyed. As one would suspect, a few copies escaped the search and have been preserved (one in the Bodleian Library in Oxford). These “Bibles” constitute one more proof that popes are not infallible and that to maintain this lie the Church is willing to tell other lies as well.
This my friend, is your “2000 years of history and billions of people that share my Faith.” It is fraught with lies, deceit, inconsistencies, and anti-biblical and anti-God.
You have quoted to me wonderful verse such as Matthew 5:48 and 1 Peter 1:15 and I agree. However, wouldn’t you say that your infallible pontiffs ought to have been the vanguards in being holy and perfect? This is what really happened to your more than 2000 years of pristine tradition in your church. Again, I am quoting from “A Woman Rides the Beast.”
For centuries the citizens of Rome considered it their right to elect the Bishop of Rome. This custom is proof that the Bishop of Rome had jurisdiction only over that territory, for if he had had jurisdiction over the whole Church, then all of the Church would have been involved in choosing him, as it is today. When at times the right to elect their own Bishop was denied them, the citizens of Rome revolted and forced their will upon the local civil and religious authorities. How could such pressure by mob violence be called apostolic succession by the direction of the Holy Spirit?
Feuds were carried on between powerful families (Colonna, Orsini, Annibaldi, Conti, Caetani, et al), who fought wars for the papacy for centuries. For example, Boniface VIII, a Caetani, had to battle the Colonna to remain in power. At the height of his success he had all of Western Christendom coming to Rome for the great Jubilee in 1300. But in 1303 he was seized by emissaries of Philip the Fair of France, and Rome fell into French possession. As a consequence, the papacy was moved to France, and from 1309-77 the popes were French and resided at Avignon. Such political maneuverings could hardly constitute apostolic succession!
Popes were both installed and deposed by imperial armies or Roman mobs. Some were murdered. More than one pope was executed by a jealous husband who found him in bed with his wife – hardly apostolic succession. Money and/or violence most often determined who would be “Peter’s successor.” No wonder that in the Concordat of Worms (between Pope Calixtus II and the Emperor Henry V, September 23, 1122) the pope was made to swear that the election of bishops and abbots would take place “without simony and without any violence,”3 which all too often decided Church affairs.
At times there were several rivals each claiming to have been legally voted in by a legitimate council. One of the earliest examples of multiple popes was created by the simultaneous election by rival factions of Popes Ursinus and Damasus. The former’s followers managed, after much violence, to install him as pope. Later, after a bloody three-day battle, Damasus, with the backing of the emperor, emerged the victor and continued as vicar of Christ for 18 years. So “apostolic succession” by an “unbroken line from Peter” operated by armed force? Really?
Ironically, Damasus was the first who, in 382, used the phrase “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church” to claim supreme spiritual authority. Bloody, wealthy, powerful, and exceedingly corrupt, Damasus surrounded himself with luxuries that would have made an emperor blush. There is no way to justify any connection between him and Christ, yet he remains one link in that chain of alleged unbroken succession back to Peter.
Stephen VII (896-7), who exhumed Pope Formosus and condemned the corpse for heresy at a mock trial, was soon thereafter strangled by zealots who opposed him. His party promptly elected a Cardinal Sergius to be pope, but he was chased out of Rome by a rival faction which had elected Romanus as its “vicar of Christ.” Of the strange manner in which popes followed one another in an “unbroken line of apostolic succession from Peter,” one historian writes:
Over the next twelve months four more popes scrambled onto the bloodstained [papal] throne, maintained themselves precariously for a few weeks-or even days-before being hurled themselves into their graves.
Seven popes and an anti-pope had appeared in a little over six years when … Cardinal Sergius reappeared after seven years’ exile, backed now by the swords of a feudal lord who saw a means thereby of gaining entry into Rome. The reigning pope [Leo V, 903] found his grave, the slaughters in the city reached a climax, and then Cardinal Sergius emerged as Pope Sergius [III, 904-11 ], sole survivor of the claimants and now supreme pontiff.
Attempting to establish stability in selecting popes, in 1059 Nicholas 11(1059-61) “defined the role of the cardinals in the [papal] electoral process. During the Third Lateran Council in 1179, Alexander III (1159-8 1) restricted papal elections to the cardinals.”5 It was hardly an improvement. As one nineteenth century historian pointed out, “Few papal elections, if any, have been other than simoniacal [bought off for money]…. The invention of the Sacred College [of cardinals] has been, on the whole, perhaps the most fertile source of corruption in the Church. Many cardinals went to Rome for the conclave with their bankers.”
This is history my friend and you cannot deny it. 2000 years of pristine tradition? Is this what motivates you to pray to Mary? Really???
And with this I close my case. I refuse to engage you any further because you love it when the blind leads the blind.
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. (2 Th 2:9-11)
Don’t even try to respond to this post for I will delete it immediately.

Dear Thomas,
I’ve ready all your comments on this page, and although you are right and you make good Biblical points, but the way in which you are communicating is very negative. Even as I’m writing down this reply, I feel very scared of what kind of reply you would give me… but I feel like I had to say this to you. All your commentaries are filled with anger. I am especially distraught when I read your comments above to the Catholic friend Dario where you said “Don’t even try to respond to this post for I will delete it immediately.” That is so much hatred there. I can’t believe you shut him down like that in that way! Now, how can that person ever come to Christ! I think that was very unwise, and I am just so distraught, thinking that Catholic friend Dario, has left this chatroom with a negative perception of a witness for Christ. All the more reason Satan can use so that he will not come to know Christ. Yes, arguing and debating is fine, but what is more important than being an effective witness for Christ so that others will come to follow Him?
I am not saying that us Christians, should be all about love and all that modern beliefs about love love love.. But I can’t help feeling the hatred communicated from one brother to another brother, even if that brother does not agree with Biblical teachings, and even if that brother is an Unbeliever. I really hope you will change the way you do your apologetics and the way you communicate to other people (believers or non-believers). Because how can you share the gospel, and how can you be a light unto others, or how can you show that CHRIST lives within you, when all that people can see is hatred, irritation, defensiveness? I am not saying, when people state false, unbiblical things you should stay quiet or you should pretend you agree with them.. No, no one should be ashamed of God and of the truth, and the truth of God’s Word need to be spoken and proclaimed! However.. I’m sure you agree with me, that there is the “right way” of doing it! And the “Biblical” way of doing it! And I think the best example that we can follow is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, when he’s answering the pharisees (Remember, when HE didn’t even answer but HE just wrote on the sand? This is one example). We can also follow the apostle Paul’s example in his letters to the churches, where the letters are often filled with reproof sometimes for the believers, we can learn how he spoke to them with strictness and authority but also with Christ’s love. Proverbs is also filled wisdom on how we are to respond to people. (“A gentle answer turns away wrath, but harsh words stir up anger” Prov 15: 1) (“Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.” Prov 25:15) (“A person’s wisdom yields patience; it is to one’s glory to overlook an offense.Prov 19:11)
Finally, I highly recommend that you listen to Dr. Charles Stanley’s podcasts (intouch.org) He has been such a blessing to me and my family. He has podcasts titled “Victory over Anger”, “How to Treat the Unbeliever”, “Essentials of a Fruit Witness”, etc.. I just wrote several titles here that may be a blessing to you.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Eunice

What is the Biblical way of doing things, to which you refer? Perhaps these?

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. (Gal 1:6-10).

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. (Jude 1:11-13).

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Co 11:13-15).

I find it rather strange that you should judge my heart as being judgmental and full of hatred when you said nothing whatsoever about all the quotes I provided Dario to prove to him that the RCC is heretical. Moreover, the above quotes from Scripture do not sit well in the congregation of so-called “Christian Psychologists” such as Josh McDowell, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, and others who have all elevated the self-esteem god far above the throne of God in heaven.

I also doubt whether you would heed my warning that Charles Stanley’s teaching on self-esteem is as heretical and as dangerous as Roman Catholicism. Nonetheless, to quote Paul, “For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.”

I am not here to tickle your ears and those of others with niceties that lead to hell. I ended my conversation with Dario because he was adamant to listen, even after I had quoted to him all those things from the RCC’s history. Our discussion was heading nowhere and hence my abrupt statement, “Don’t even try to respond to this post for I will delete it immediately.” Why must I allow someone to promote his heresies on this site when there are so many young Christians who may be led astray by their heresies?

By the way, here’s another wonderful biblical way of doing things.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! (Mat 18:6-7)

And by the way, these words were spoken by Jesus Himself. He was actually saying that anyone who causes young Chtistians to stumble, should be thrown in the depth of the sea where sins are thrown.

He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. (Mic 7:19)

To say that whosoever leads astray young Christians should be cast into the depths of the sea where all sins are thrown, is not so kosher, is it? In fact, it is downright full of hatred, is it not? If I should say: Charles Stanley and his doctrines on self-esteem should be cast into the depths of the sea because he is leading many young Christians astray, you would probably immediately accuse me of being full of hatred. Do so by all means but then you should also accuse Jesus of being full of hatred for saying such an horrendous thing.

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, . . . (2 Ti 3:1-2)

Remember, you cannot be a disciple of Jesus Christ if you love yourself.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luk 14:26)

Charles Stanley is teaching Christians not to obey Jesus Christ and not to follow Him as his disciples. I would rather call that being full of hatred because it teaches Christians to disobey Jesus’s doctrines and subsequently are leading many straight to hell. Is that what you want?

Peter

Well, why is my latest message didn’t show up here? Is it being moderated? Why?

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Peter,

If you can show me where in Scripture it says that John the Baptist’s baptism was from God or man, I will be happy to supply the verses you want me to quote. Note carefully, I want chapter and verse.

Peter

Thomas:

Why I should provide your request for that? I never said anything about John the Baptist’s baptism, so I don’t think it is relevant with what we discussed here.
While in your case, you should be able to answer my question, because you have already made a statement that visions and dreams stop the day the Bible is completed, and you judge people who teach otherwise to be a false teacher. So you should have the Bible’s verse as your foundation to say and judge so. If you cannot provide that then you shouldn’t judge people who have different opinion with you, that’s the problem here.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Peter,

So, we shouldn’t discuss John the Baptist’s baptism just because you decide that it’s not appropriate to do so? I can only surmise what you would have told Jesus if you’d been among the Pharisees who asked Him “By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?” and He answered them with the rhetorical question “I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things, The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?” You would probably have said to Him from your haughty position of what we may discuss and what not, “Why should I provide your request for that? I never said anything about John the Baptist’s baptism, so I don’t think it is relevant with what we discussed here.”

You see, Jesus who very often asked rhetorical questions, wanted to get them to use their dull minds and find out for themselves where his authority came from. There is not a single verse in the Bible that tells us form whence John the Baptist’s baptism came from – not a single verse – and yet the answer to the question was quite obvious despite the fact that the baptism with which John baptized was called “John’s Baptism.” (Acts 19:3).

In the very same way – and despite the fact that there are no verses in Scripture that tell us outright that visions and dreams have ceased – it is obvious that visions and dreams are no longer required to add anything to the Bible which is complete. If God tells you, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Ti 3:16-17), then He is simply saying that everything that is necessary for man to live in accordance with God’s will can be found in the Bible and therefore we no longer need visions and dreams.

And stop bearing false witness by saying I am judging people. I told you I am judging their doctrines and not the people which you ought to do yourself. You have been judging me throughout our discussion.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Peter wrote:

” . . . and you judge people who teach otherwise to be a false teacher.”

No my friend, it is not I who am judging false teachers. Jesus Christ Himself judges them with these words:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

Peter

If God tells you, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Ti 3:16-17), then He is simply saying that everything that is necessary for man to live in accordance with God’s will can be found in the Bible and therefore we no longer need visions and dreams.

I don’t think that this verse can be interpreted that way. Those verses are simply state the origin of the scripture (from God), and its functions (for doctrine, reproof, correction, etc), and its purpose (the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works) so that we could believe everything that was written in the scripture. Sure everything we need to live in accordance with God’s will can be found in the Bible, but it doesn’t mean that God have stopped giving visions and dreams.

What about the people who lived in a country who forbid the Bible, how they could know God and His will when they don’t have access with the Bible? What about people who lived in a very remote places, there were no people who reach out and handed out the Bible to them? God can gave them visions and dreams so that they might know Him, for example, He could give visions to some missionary to go to that remote places, or vice versa, He could give visions to those people who lived in a remote places or a country who forbid the Bible to go out of their places and meet someone who can teach them God’s truth. And you haven’t say anything about “the last days” question that I asked

And stop bearing false witness by saying I am judging people. I told you I am judging their doctrines and not the people which you ought to do yourself.

Really? you told me that I answer you from haughty position, you told hadassa in the comment above of being immature Christian, aren’t that judging people and not their doctrine?

And about the Gal 1:8-9. Those who are accursed are the one who preach any other gospel. Now let’s define the word gospel. What is gospel? If we read that chapter and the chapter following I can assume that the gospel that Paul means is the news that Jesus Christ died on the cross, raised again and those who believe in Him will be saved. That salvation is obtained by confessing this fact, not because of following Jewish regulations. That salvation is obtained by the grace of God, not because of our good works. So I ask you, do the people who believe that visions and dreams still exist today preach another gospel? do they preach that to be saved we need to do some good works? If not, then according to the verse that you quoted here, Jesus Christ didn’t judge them.

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

Peter wrote:
” . . . and you judge people who teach otherwise to be a false teacher.”
No my friend, it is not I who am judging false teachers. Jesus Christ Himself judges them with these words:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

Thomas, Sometimes it is sad to see illogical statements and insults bounce back and forth on this site. Generally simple answers have a greater impact than intricate rebuttals that are not understood. Bold print we are taught is “shouting on paper” – ask around. We can contend for the faith and the integrity of God’s word if we remember:

2 Timothy 2:22-26 (NIV)

22 Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

We are here to help the deceived and the unsaved, but we should also come alongside a brother without fear of being misunderstood.

“He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help.”

Abraham Lincoln

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Perhaps you would like to explain to Peter more about visions and dreams.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Peter wrote:

What about the people who lived in a country who forbid the Bible, how they could know God and His will when they don’t have access with the Bible? What about people who lived in a very remote places, there were no people who reach out and handed out the Bible to them? God can gave them visions and dreams so that they might know Him, for example, He could give visions to some missionary to go to that remote places, or vice versa, He could give visions to those people who lived in a remote places or a country who forbid the Bible to go out of their places and meet someone who can teach them God’s truth.

If they’ve never heard about Jesus, who told them about Satan? Idolatry is satanic. They never knew Jesus of whom they supposedly never heard but they knew Satan of whom they supposedly never heard of as well. How does that work for you?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Rom 1:18-23)

They knew that God exists and instead of calling on Him to be saved (Acts 2:21), they worshiped idols. Listen to this

ftp://www.thebereancall.org/radio/2009/2109c.mp3

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

John Andrews UK/Ireland
Perhaps you would like to explain to Peter more about visions and dreams.

Thomas and Peter – you have discussed the Joel prophesy and did the two of you reach any conclusion of its context and for whom and when this is intended? Peter quotes this in Acts 2 – does this mean that the inception of the visions and dreams took effect then at Pentecost? Methinks not, and study into the Joel prophesy and Peter quoting it in Acts will I think convince us that Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come?

Paul’s prayer for the Ephesians: Eph 3:14–21

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Show me someone obsessed with the Holy Spirit and I will show you a person not filled with the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is the person sought His work has been rejected and Christ is obscured, scripture depreciated and a preoccupation with counterfeit experiences is imagined to be induced by the Holy Spirit – but not having anything to do with Him at all.

We have the charismatics that are confusing themselves, but need we be confused or deceived by their chaos? They speak of Scripture as the “dead letter,” compared to their modern prophecies, which they believe are “fresh and living words” from God. So they have effectively subjugated Scripture to questionable phenomena.

Besides, why rely on visions and dreams and prophesies of some person as proof of Jesus’ work in the world, when their source cannot be 100% guaranteed? – and when the bible as source, can?

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Thanks John. You wrote,

Thomas and Peter – you have discussed the Joel prophesy and did the two of you reach any conclusion of its context and for whom and when this is intended? Peter quotes this in Acts 2 – does this mean that the inception of the visions and dreams took effect then at Pentecost? Methinks not, and study into the Joel prophesy and Peter quoting it in Acts will I think convince us that Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come

“Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.” This seems to be the meaning of Joel 2:28. Do you mind if I asked you to elaborate a bit more with emphasis on “is yet to come.” I appreciate your valuable input.
Thanks!

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

John Andrews UK/Ireland
Thanks John. You wrote,
Thomas and Peter – you have discussed the Joel prophesy and did the two of you reach any conclusion of its context and for whom and when this is intended? Peter quotes this in Acts 2 – does this mean that the inception of the visions and dreams took effect then at Pentecost? Methinks not, and study into the Joel prophesy and Peter quoting it in Acts will I think convince us that Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come
“Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.” This seems to be the meaning of Joel 2:28. Do you mind if I asked you to elaborate a bit more with emphasis on “is yet to come.” I appreciate your valuable input.
Thanks!

Thomas – it not my intention to give an exhaustive answer to your argument with Peter: However I will try and be short whilst still giving a logical train of thought:

A starting point will be to look at the total dissimilarity between the day of Pentecost as in Acts 2 and Joel’s prophecy as in Joel 2:28-31 –

Acts 2:1-4, “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting and there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the holy ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”.

I think it would be helpful to list these events in order to felicitate a comparison with Joel 2.

1) “a rushing mighty wind”

2) “cloven tongues, like as of fire”

3) “filled with the holy ghost”

4) “began to speak in other tongues”

Then Joel’s prophecy:

Acts 2:17-18 is a record of Peter quoting the prophecy from Joel 2: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, ‘I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams. And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My spirit and they shall prophecy‘”.

Below is the list of things prophesied in the passage quoted from Joel.

1) “I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh“

2) “Your sons and daughters will prophesy”

3) “your young men will see visions“

4) “your old men shall dream dreams“

5) “My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My spirit and they shall prophecy“.

A quick comparison of the events of Acts 2 with the prophecy of Joel 2 will reveal that there is only one thing in common, i.e. the spirit of the Lord was poured out.

Some might object that Peter began his quote of Joel 2 by saying, “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel”. How can we account for that statement considering that it was certainly not what had been prophesied in Joel 2?

As the two events do not match it would be logical to say: Peter was saying in effect “that the same kind of thing as what Joel speaks of is happening now“.

So where does that leave us in following up – when should it be expected to happen (or have happened)? As we cannot find such an event in the past then it is “yet to come” would be logical?

In other words, the reason Peter quoted Joel was not because Joel’s prophecy was then being fulfilled or even “partially fulfilled”. The reason was to say that these men are not drunk and the men of Israel should know that because the same kind of things are spoken of by Joel.

But is there further evidence of the logic of this suggestion?

JOEL’S PROPHECY

When Peter quoted Joel chapter 2, he began with saying, “And it shall come to pass in the last days“. Joel was more specific. In Joel 2:28, which is the beginning of the prophecy Peter quoted, we read, “And afterward I will pour out my spirit….”. Peter’s words, “the last days” is correct, but Joel is more specific as to when in the last days they might see the things quoted, i.e. dreams and visions. Let us therefore, examine Joel 2 to see if we might learn more about when to expect these signs.

Joel 2:1 begins with a prophecy concerning the “day of the Lord”. “for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand”. The prophecy concerning the day of the Lord continues through verse 11, But with verse 12 there is a break in the prophecy about the day of the Lord, and we read in verse 12, “Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to Me, with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping and with mourning”. This plea for repentance continues through verse 17. In verses 18-27 we read what will be the consequence of Israel’s repentance. We read in verse 26, “never again will My people be ashamed”. This tells us that these verses speak of the millennium.

Now to verse 28 which begins the passage that Peter quotes in Acts 2. “And afterward“. After what? Certainly not after the millennium which is the subject of the preceding 10 verses. We must go all the way back to verse 11 in order to determine the “afterward” of verse 28. Verse 11 speaks of the day of the Lord. So then, after the day of the Lord, the signs of which Joel writes will be seen.

So the signs of which Joel writes are to be seen after the day of the Lord. Therefore, when Peter quoted this passage it could not possibly have been fulfilled that day in Acts 2, because that day was obviously not after the day of the Lord.

Logically: The signs of which Joel writes are to be seen after the day of the Lord. When Peter quoted Joel the day of the Lord had not yet occurred. Therefore, Acts 2 cannot be the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.

In conclusion the above is an explanation of why I wrote “Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come?” the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.

2 Thessalonians 2 (NKJV)

The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Fast

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

And we need to once again realize that this blog tries to warn about deception, lies, and false imaginations, dreams and visions that are not of God but of Satan’s deceptive band of purveyors of another gospel. Just reading 2 Thessalonians 2 is ample warning that deception is not a figment of discerning believers but a fact. Dreams and visions and other phenomena that the Pentecostals and charismatics cling to are akin to inviting Satan to spin a yarn (lie) to you and deceive you. That is why we contend for the faith so as to oppose the false teachers and false accounts of dreams, visions of heaven and the like. I know that there are sincere readers of this blog that have fallen into the hands of false teachers, but they need to ask themselves if they have been fed the truth, or are they in bondage (a slave) to a specific teacher or church?

I am a visitor on this blog and not part of the team who have an enormous volume of work answering a massive amount of comments. I only visit occasionally to keep up to date on the latest identified works of the apostasy and the charlatans and con artists that serve their own ego and greed.

Again I repeat: 2 Thess 2:9-12

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Dreams and visions? ………Mm -yes methinks so (except for the normal dreams that we do not “spiritualise”).

Peter

So, Thomas’ interpretation about Joel 2 was that it had been fulfilled at the Day of Pentecost, and John Andrews’ interpretation about Joel 2 was that it hasn’t fulfilled yet till now, it will be fulfilled after the day of the Lord

Am I correct?

And what do you mean about “The Day of the Lord”? Is it the second coming of Christ?

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Peter wrote:

So, Thomas’ interpretation about Joel 2 was that it had been fulfilled at the Day of Pentecost, and John Andrews’ interpretation about Joel 2 was that it hasn’t fulfilled yet till now, it will be fulfilled after the day of the Lord
Am I correct?
And what do you mean about “The Day of the Lord”? Is it the second coming of Christ?

You have read correctly. I wonder why you ask me to confirm my stated view which I have weighed up against the other 2 possible interpretations.

I am not here to explain to you “The Day of the Lord” as we are drifting away from the point of believing imaginations that are unbiblical (some call them visions and dreams) and not plausible if you read them. This forum does not support speaking in tongues, prophecy as practiced by the Pentecostals and charismatics, healings by faith healers (Christians false teachers and others) and you sure would not then expect to have visions and dreams slip through? If perchance Thomas’ interpretation of Joel’s prophecy would be correct, then they would fall into the same category as speaking in tongues, healings and charismatic prophecy which have passed away.

Whether you interpret Joel’s prophecy as fulfilled, partially fulfilled or unfulfilled (yet to come) you are still left with a false teaching if you believe that you can take as fact the day trippers that have been to heaven and back. Their stories are ? dreams ? visions ? imaginations that have nothing to do with the truth (cannot be made to align with scripture). There are no day trips to heaven. The price of the book “Heaven is for real” is the price of your cheap day trip to heaven. This may however not be the only price you pay………..?

To clarify my previous post:

Dreams and visions? I said “yes” meaning that they are part of the false teaching brought by “the working of Satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved”

One of the “lying wonders” is the lie that dreams and visions today are given by God through the Holy Spirit.

Peter

Okay, thanks John Andrew for your reply.
I asked that because I want to confirm if I have assumed your stance and Thomas’ correctly. So now I know that the 2 of you have different interpretation about those Bible verses.

So now, I wonder, we have Bible as the ultimate truth, the ultimate source, but 2 people can have different interpretation about one verse in the Bible, I think this answer your statement here

Besides, why rely on visions and dreams and prophesies of some person as proof of Jesus’ work in the world, when their source cannot be 100% guaranteed? – and when the bible as source, can?

. This statement was also raised by Thomas.

The bible is of course, can be guaranteed 100%. But the problem is, our interpretation can’t. What makes you think that your interpretation of the bible is the most correct one? or Thomas? or me? or any bible teachers out there?

Actually, the meaning of “The Day of The Lord” is necessary, because it still related to the verse that we discussed. Because this verse (Joel and Act) is the main reason why I and Thomas have so many discussion, for me this verse support my view that visions, dreams, prophecy still exist today because this verse clearly said “In the last days”, not “In the last day”, but Thomas believe otherwise without being able to explain why this verse use “In the last days”and not “In the last day”. And you have brought different interpretation.

Dreams and visions? I said “yes” meaning that they are part of the false teaching brought by “the working of Satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved”

One of the “lying wonders” is the lie that dreams and visions today are given by God through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, this is your conclusion, your interpretation, not what the Bible say. To generalize that all visions and dreams are from satan is an overstatement. What if all those teachers really got their visions and dreams from God? You will be guilty of accusing your own brother and sister in Christ, just like the devil accusing our brother. You will be like the Pharisee who said that Jesus’ miracles were from satan. Have you considered that?

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Peter wrote:

Okay, thanks John Andrew for your reply.
I asked that because I want to confirm if I have assumed your stance and Thomas’ correctly. So now I know that the 2 of you have different interpretation about those Bible verses

These 2 interpretations are 2 of 3 that are still debated within the wider church with all due respect. At no time has this been hidden from you. It also seems you did not research and bring your own conclusion to the table. If you would have an opinion bring it to the table for all to see. Irrespective which of the three you would accept as your interpretation of the scripture ith would still be problematical for you to further your “dreams and visions” spiritual fetish.

That would not detract from the fact that no dreams or visions occured at Pentecost in Acts. If anyone has ever said that they did it sure has not been put forward as nobody can.

What you fail to see is that none of the dreams and visions that people bring as “new or added revelation” are ever open to scrutiny by the wider church. It happens in books that we are able to test whether they align with scripture. Heaven is for Real does not align with scripture and you are being obstructive to insinuate that it does. While you have had your attempt to discredit logical viewpoints that I put on the table your vain arguments remain just that. You never seem to move forward, but try a new question to deviate from the point in debate. By all means attend a Bible College – nobody is stopping you. Hermeneutics is a subject that you will hate – “The study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible” ?

2 Tim 2:23 (NIV): Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights.

It was with the love of the truth that I commented on this particular topic and so I leave.

John Andrews UK/Ireland

As followers of this thread might be disappointed in not seeing a “conclusion” in mini debate regarding the Joel prophecy I would point to a good article on bible-truth.org website under url http://bible-truth.org/VISIONS.html that I came across after posting my reply to Peter above.

We should know that dealing with error and false teaching is not without frustration, but I will not be drawn into foolish arguments. I am being kind to those who are serious about the truth and do not think that giving the deceived an ongoing platform is fruitful. A seed of truth sown might however take root and grow.

Thomas if you would like to have dialogue with me on my response to your request: “Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.” This seems to be the meaning of Joel 2:28. Do you mind if I asked you to elaborate a bit more with emphasis on “is yet to come.” I would ask you to use my email supplied to DTW.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Thanks John,

I am rather pressed for time to engage anyone in lengthy discussions. I appreciate your input but I cannot do so right now. One thing I can say is that I agree with your statement “Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.”

By the way, there is something wrong with the link you provided. It doesn’t open.

Peter

Thomas :

That would not detract from the fact that no dreams or visions occured at Pentecost in Acts.

Yes, this is what you’ve said. No dreams or visions occured at Pentecost in Acts. So from this facts, from my logical point of view, I can say :
1. The interpretation that Joel was fulfilled ONLY at the Day of Pentecost (just like what Thomas said) is not right. Why? Because no dreams or visions occured at Pentecost, just like you said.
2. The interpretation that Joel will be fulfilled after the Day of the Lord (just like what you said) is not too right too. Why? Because after the Pentecost, Peter received visions, Paul received visions, John received visions.

Actually, my point is I don’t mind if you don’t believe that God can give visions and dreams to people in this modern day, but don’t generalize things. Sure, not every visions and dreams come from God, but it doesn’t mean that we should judge that EVERY visions and dreams are from satan.

You can quote all the website that support your view, I also can quote all the website that support my view about visions and dreams. Just like this
or
.

And what questions did I raised that alleviate from the subject? Aren’t my questions all about visions and dreams?

And you asked about my own conclusions. I think I have said it, my conclusion is that I believe that visions and dreams are still exist today. God still give visions and dreams to people in this modern day. Sure, not every one who claim to see visions get it from God, but this shouldn’t make us generalize that every visions are not from God. But we should test it with the Bible as the standard. Those visions and dreams shouldn’t contradict with what is written in the Bible.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Peter,

Would you say that Colton Burpo’s experience (visions and dreams) were from God?

John Andrews UK/Ireland

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

John Andrews UK/Ireland
Thanks John,
I am rather pressed for time to engage anyone in lengthy discussions. I appreciate your input but I cannot do so right now. One thing I can say is that I agree with your statement “Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.”
By the way, there is something wrong with the link you provided. It doesn’t open.

Thomas, No problem, below is in short a clue to where I am coming from.

Also, the link opens from your DTW site: http://bible-truth.org/VISIONS.html

I think that the Covenant theologians use replacement theology (some of them prefer “fulfilled” theology). Good luck with people that are not only deceived but have a strong delusion. One must realize that their worldly arguments are godless.
2 Timothy 2:16-17(KJV)

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

Also: 2 Timothy 2:16-17New International Version (NIV)

16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

Delusion is worse than deception and this is possible in some people and can even be classified as a psychiatric problem: “Psychiatry: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact” (dictionary.com)

Also some narcissists are unable to accept that they are wrong (or will not admit it!).

Best option is given in the above scripture. We should not waste time on someone that we can see will “not let go of the bone” (bones do not have meat on them).

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Peter wrote,

2. The interpretation that Joel will be fulfilled after the Day of the Lord (just like what you said) is not too right too. Why? Because after the Pentecost, Peter received visions, Paul received visions, John received visions.

You cannot argue that because Peter, Paul and John had visions that we should have visions and dreams as well. Paul, as far as I can recall had two visions (Acts 16:9; 2 Corinthians 12:1-7); Peter only had one vision (Acts 10:9-23) and John had one huge big vision consisting of various closely knitted elements, depicting the last days in the Book of Revelation. Many miraculous things happened during the church’s infancy. Ananias and Sapphira was struck down dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit. And yet today so-called Christians like Oral Roberts could say he had a vision in which he had a seven hour conversation with a nine hundred foot Jesus who told him to build a hospital. And what about when he said, God said He would kill him unless he got eight million dollars, and so forth. He was lying and yet the Holy Spirit did not strike him down dead. Perhaps it would be a good thing for God to strike down dead liars in the church so that would-be visionaries and dreamers should be fearful of telling lies about their dreams and visions. Today there are multitudes of so-called Christians, especially from the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, who claim to have a perpetual stream of visions and dreams which are all a pack of lies and yet none of them are struck down dead.

ftp://www.thebereancall.org/radio/2009/3909b.mp3

Peter

John :

I think that the Covenant theologians use replacement theology (some of them prefer “fulfilled” theology). Good luck with people that are not only deceived but have a strong delusion. One must realize that their worldly arguments are godless.
2 Timothy 2:16-17(KJV)

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

Also: 2 Timothy 2:16-17New International Version (NIV)

16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

Delusion is worse than deception and this is possible in some people and can even be classified as a psychiatric problem: “Psychiatry: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact” (dictionary.com)

Also some narcissists are unable to accept that they are wrong (or will not admit it!).

Best option is given in the above scripture. We should not waste time on someone that we can see will “not let go of the bone” (bones do not have meat on them).

So, when someone cannot find an agreement with your interpretation, you classified them as a narcissists, delusion, etc. Good :) . If visions and dreams can be dangerous then I think the scripture can be a dangerous things too, because everybody can just quote a verse or two just to justify his own interpretation and attack those who are in disagreement with him ;)

Thomas :
I haven’t read Heaven is For Real so I cannot say anything yet at this moment.

You cannot argue that because Peter, Paul and John had visions that we should have visions and dreams as well

I never said that we should have visions and dreams, I simply said that visions and dreams are still exist today. Please don’t twist my words.

Today there are multitudes of so-called Christians, especially from the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, who claim to have a perpetual stream of visions and dreams which are all a pack of lies

This is what caused me to disagree, when you generalize that all visions and dreams that are experienced by people in this modern day are all lies.

and yet none of them are struck down dead.

Yes, why? It can be that God still have mercy on them, but it also can be that because they didn’t lie about their visions/dreams coming from God. Why would God struck down His people who preach His message?

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Peter,

I am on the brink of deleting every new comment you write because you are not thinking.

You wrote,

I never said that we should have visions and dreams, I simply said that visions and dreams are still exist today. Please don’t twist my words.

If visions and dreams still exit today and if they are not self-induced phenomena but come either from God or Satan, then you have no say in the matter whatsoever. If God or Satan wants to give you a vision or a dream you will have a vision or dream whether you like it or not – provided that visions and dreams exist in these days. Therefore, you cannot say “I never said that we should have visions and dreams.” It is not for you to decide or to say whether you should have visions and dreams or not. Consequently, in saying that visions and dreams still exist today you are in fact saying that we should have visions and dreams because God or Satan are the ones who give you visions and dreams and there’s nothing you can do to evade having those visions ands dreams – provided that visions and dreams from God still exist today.

Let me ask you this: Was the Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh on the Day of Pentecost?

Your closing statement is equally silly:

and yet none of them are struck down dead.

Yes, why? It can be that God still have mercy on them, but it also can be that because they didn’t lie about their visions/dreams coming from God. Why would God struck down His people who preach His message?

What you are saying is the following:

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him whom they have never seen in visions and dreams? And how are they to hear without someone preaching through visions and dreams? And how are they to preach through visions and dreams unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news through visions and dreams!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from having visions and dreams, and hearing through visions and dreams. (Rom 10:14-17 according to Peter).

Visions and dreams may be classified as supernatural signs. What did Jesus say about those who seek signs?

But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. (Mat 12:39)

Robin

Hi… I’ve just found your site and am going through the Burpo examination. Some new revelations for me, which is good. I didn’t believe the accounts were inspired by God, based on the following, which I’d like to share with you.

When the boy claims that he was in Heaven, and all the men went off to war, but he stayed back with the women and children….? How is that, if there is no male nor female in Christ? Why would there be distinction of roles in Heaven, when we are told we’ll be like the angels, neither marrying, nor being given in marriage, etc.?

Thanks for being noble.

Regards,
Robin

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Robin,

You have made a good observation. Thank you.

LightShiner

AMEN! My sentiments exactly!!! What a twisted sad person to twist God’s meaning & hope for us.

amazing how you could think someone who inspires people to have renewed faith actually think they’re Jesus?!! You are ignorant & I’m sure a hater. You can’t stand that Jesus is working through this little innocent boy instead of you maybe? Did you not read in the bible that we are to be disciples of Christ? That others may believe because we witness about Him. Remember??

Joseph Affatatp wrote:

I have heard everything now. How sad a take away from such misguided and distorted perceptions.
Such a misread does not even justify nor dignify a rebuttal so I have nothing further to add nor even care to do so.
PS Yes Satin is alive as is well demonstrated in such readings and takeaways.

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