Heaven is For Real – This Story is Not
Heaven is for Real – This Story is Definitely Not
Today I will give a review of “Heaven is for Real – A little boys astounding story of his trip to heaven and back”. I went to a local Christian book store called CUM Books stores here in South Africa to find hundreds of copies of this book stacked under the ‘Best Selling’ section. I picked one up and thought to myself, “Satan’s smart, he is now using little kids to sell his story.”
To give a brief summary of the story, little Colton aged 4, complains of stomach pains and runs a high fever. His parents, Todd and Sonja Burpo take him to a hospital where the doctor fails to diagnose the problem. The little boy is now deteriorating to such an extent that they remove him out of the hospital and take him to another one where he is diagnosed for a burst appendix. Rushed into surgery, little Colton while on the surgery table experiences something many people never do. He apparently goes to Heaven and meets Jesus. After he is home he starts to recount his story to his parents, as best as a 4 year old can, of his trip to Heaven and back.
There have been many books written by many people on their supposed trips of Heaven where they meet a ‘Jesus’ type person. One being Choo Thomas’ “Heaven is so Real” and then Don Piper’s “90 Minutes in Heaven”, who just happens to endorse Heaven is For Real. In the front of the book on the ‘Praise for Heaven is For Real’ pages, there are praises from 12 different people telling you why you should by this book, all reasoning as to why Colton’s story is just as good as that of the bible, and why you should “allow a little child to lead you.” — Don Piper, Speaker and Author, 90 Minutes in Heaven
Todd Burpo is a pastor at a Wesleyan church. This helps to cement the trap. First we the reader would surmise that a 4 year old child would never lie like (Alex Malarkey “The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven”), and to top things off the father of the child is a pastor – Satan would never go after a 4 year old child of a pastor, would he? Especially if the pastor is biblical sound in his doctrine, or is he? Throughout the book Heaven is for Real Todd Burpo points to scripture to try and back up his sons ‘visions’ but with terrible inaccuracy. For anyone not knowing scripture, they would agree with Todd, being non the wiser. After all he is a pastor, he should not be telling untruths to his church, let alone the whole world.
Heaven is for Real and it’s problematic areas:
I am now going to take you through the book Heaven is for Real, looking at all the problematic areas. We are going to deal with this book biblically which includes being logical. God gave us a brain to use – let’s use it.
False visions from Colton:
1) On page xix of Heaven is for Real,when Colton first tells his parents about his trip to Heaven he states that the angels sang to him. He says, “Dad, Jesus had the angels sing to me because I was so scared. They made me feel better” ..at the time… “I was sitting on Jesus lap”. Now Colton was scared because he was having surgery. Immediately we have a problem with this statement. If you are sitting on Jesus Christ’s lap, surely you will not be scared? But yet Colton is scared and this Jesus figure has to get the angels to sing to him in order to make him feel better. The bible tells us:
John 14:27 “27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”
Philippians 4:7 “And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”
2) Colton tells his father about Jesus’ horse, he says; “Hey dad, did you know Jesus has a horse?”….”Yeah a rainbow horse, I got to pet him. There’s lots of colors”. pg. 63
In Heaven is for Real, Jesus has a horse that resembles that of a My Little Pony? And we as Christians are supposed to believe this? Rainbows are also very significant in New Age teaching.–(This we will discuss in more detail later). Todd tries to justify his son’s vision by telling us about scripture of “the rainbow colours described in the book of Revelation” pg. 66
3) Colton also tells his father that this Jesus figure had a crown; “Yeah a crown, and it had this… this diamond thing in the middle of it and it was kind of pink…” pg.66
In Heaven is for Real, it would appear that the Jesus of Colton’s vision not only has a My Litte Pony but appears ‘plastic’ as well. A pink like stone in his crown? Who are we kidding here! The Jesus that appeared to Colton certainly does not look anything Jesus Christ the Son of God as spoken about in the book of Revelation – visions given to John. Now this vision we can believe because it’s in the bible:
Revelation 1:12-16 “I turned to see whose voice it was that was speaking to me and when I had turned I saw seven golden lamp stands, and among these lampstands I saw someone ‘like a Son of Man’. He was dressed in a long robe with a golden girdle around his breast; his head and his hair were white as snow-white wool, his eyes blazed like fire, and his feet shone as the finest bronze glows in the furnace. His voice had the sound of a great waterfall, and I saw that in his right hand he held seven stars. A sharp two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face was ablaze like the sun at its height.“
The Purple Sash
4) Colton also says his Jesus wore white with a purple sash in his book Heaven is for Real he says, “Jesus was the only one in heaven who had purple on, Dad Did you know that? pg 65
Todd then tries to confuse the reader of Heaven is for Real by saying the following, “In scripture, purple is the color of kings. A verse from the gospel of Mark flashed through my mind: “His clothes became dassling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them” pg 65.
If we look at this scripture what Todd is referring too, it says nothing of purple. This is when Jesus was transfigured (Mark 9:3). The only time Jesus had purple on was just before he was going to be crucified. Note, he was being clothed as a human King – Jesus Christ is now King of all Kings. He is not Colton’s description of a Jesus figure, which is more like a fairy-tale Jesus.
Mark 15:17 “And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head”
Mark 15:20 “And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.”
Later on in the article we will have a look at what Colton’s Jesus actually looks like – yes we have a picture.
5) Something that stuns Colton’s father into submission is the fact that Colton’s Jesus showed him his hands and feet and Colton says, “Jesus has markers” pg 65
Todd does not understand that this Jesus in Heaven is for Real is not the real Jesus Christ of the Bible; a vision and the reality of Jesus Christ really returning to earth are completely two different things. Yes when Jesus Christ returns we will see the marks of where he was nailed to the cross, but this vision of Colton’s is a vision and another Jesus. Satan can mimic anything he wants too.
6) Todd asks Colton what everyone looks like in heaven and Colton replies, “Everybody’s got wings.” pg 72 informing his father that everyone sort of looks like angels.
This is absolutely incorrect. We know from scripture that we will most probably look the same as we did on earth, but we will be perfect in every sense of the word. We also know from scripture that the resurrection of believers’ physical bodies has yet to take place, anyone who dies and is destined for Heaven, their form now in Heaven must lack physical attributes. Just to note: Some people were raised from the dead and transformed at the time of Jesus Christ’s resurrection. Matthew 27:52 says that their “bodies…were raised.” But do they have wings? No they do not. Philippians 3:21 says that Jesus “will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.” Does Jesus have wings? No he does not. We are made in the image of God according to Genesis 1:27, does God have wings? No He does not. Is Colton’s Jesus pulling this child’s leg and everyone else who believes him? Yes he is.
7) Another strange addition to our bodies in Heaven is for Real is that in heaven is a halo. Colton tells his father that, “All people have a light above their head”. pg 73 To try and persuade the reader that dear little Colton is telling the truth Todd goes on to tell us about angels in the bible and “when angels show up, they’re sometimes dazzlingly bright, blinding almost”. pg 73 He also tells us about Stephen who’s “face became as bright as an angel’s” pg 73 not long after he was stoned to death.
Hmm, and what has that got to do with people in heaven having “lights about their heads?” Nothing. Again Todd’s examples from scripture to try prove his point are ridiculous to say the least. Interestingly enough Todd does say that he actually can’t “…remember angels having lights over their heads specifically-or halos, as some would call them.” pg 74 But never the less chooses to believe his sons story as being true and goes on to tell the rest of the world a lie.
8) In Heaven is for Real, Colton meets his grandfather and his little sister in heaven. It would appear that everyone goes to Heaven because his little sister tells Colton that she can’t wait to meet her parents (Todd and Sonja) one day in heaven. What would happen if either Todd or Sonja were to reject the Gospel? Would the little sister’s hope be crushed?
Colton’s little long lost sister tells him that God (who is called Jesus’ dad) – adopts all babies that have died. Now this story of God adopting children will pull at the heartstrings of a billion mothers who have lost children through miscarriage and other tragedies. The pain of losing a child is unlike anything a parent should face. But now we have the story Heaven is for Real by the Burpo’s, tapping into the heartache of millions of women (like it did with Sonja Burpo) and blinding them into believing that the vision Colton experienced was true; that he was indeed in Heaven and that the Jesus he met was indeed the true Biblical Jesus, when we know, based on all the evidence that Colton’s experience was demonic.
Who’s on the left side?
9) Colton explains to his father that Jesus sits on the right hand side of his ‘dad’. Todd then asks who sits on the left side and Colton replies, “Oh, that’s easy, Dad, That’s where the angel Gabriel is, He is really nice”. pg 101 This is another lie. No where in the bible does it tell us who sits on the left side of God because there is no left side, only a right side.
“In (Ephesians 1:19-21) here we see God exalting Jesus above all others by seating Him at the right hand of the Father.”
“The term “God’s right hand” in prophecy also refers to the Messiah to whom is given the power and authority to subdue His enemies (Psalm 110:1; Psalm 118:16)”
The fact that Jesus Christ is at the “right hand of God” was a sign to the disciples that Jesus had indeed gone to heaven. In John 16:7-15, Jesus told the disciples that He had to go away and He would send the Holy Spirit. So the coming of the Holy Spirit in the upper room on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-13) was positive proof that Jesus was indeed in heaven seated at the right hand of God. This is confirmed in Romans 8:34 where the Apostle Paul writes that Christ is sitting at God’s right hand making intercession for us.
Therefore, what we can say that “God’s right hand” refers to the Messiah, the LORD Jesus Christ and He is of equal position, honor, power and authority with God (John 1:1-5). The fact that Christ is “sitting” refers to the fact that His work of redemption is done and when the fullness of the gentiles is brought in (Romans 11:25), Christ’s enemies will be made His footstool as the end of the age comes, all prophecy is completed, and time is no more.” –http://www.gotquestions.org/right-hand-God.html
The Holy Spirit
10) But it get’s worse, Colton tells his father that he sat with the Holy Spirit and it was kinda hard to describe him, other than “he’s kinda blue”. Colton was sitting by the Holy Spirit (in Heaven) praying for his father because as Colton said to his dad, “You needed the Holy Spirit, so I prayed for you”. pg 102 This is a very telling statement. The bible tells us that when you become a Christian the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you.
John 14:16-18 16 “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you”
Romans 8:9-11 “9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 “16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 6:19 “19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?”
Todd is supposed to be a Pastor, and Todd is a professing Christian yet according to Colton’s Jesus, he does not have the Holy Spirit in him. This means that the following verses and many more applies to Todd Burpo:
Matthew 7:21-23 “21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied [preached] in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
11) To make matters even worse Colton says that the Holy Spirit shoots down power to his dad when he is preaching in church, “It’s the Holy Spirit, “I watched him, He showed me”… ” He shoots down power for you when you are talking in church.” pg 126 This is totally unscriptural. Because we have proved above that the Holy Spirit abides in born again believers here on earth. The Holy Spirit does not give you power either. This Holy Spirit that Colton speaks of is false, along with it’s Jesus.
John 16:7-15 “7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.“
Rainbows in Heaven is for Real
12) Colton becomes obsessed with rainbows. Even to the point that he prays for a rainbow and one supposedly appears in the sky the following day. Todd Burbo uses the one and only scripture of Revelation 4:3 to try and backup his sons visions. “And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.”
Because we know from everything else that we have read that there is something seriously demonic regarding Colton’s visions, therefore it’s only obvious to look at New Age teaching regarding Rainbows to see what they have to say. I did an article here on the 7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras, please read.
This is what New Ager’s have to say about the Rainbow:
“The experience of seeing the colours of the rainbow, when the sun is shining and it has been raining, is one we all can share. The experience often has a magical quality to it as though it is stirring some deep inner response. Such is the wonder of the light that forms the colours of the rainbow.The heavenly principle is to GIVE AS WE RECEIVE. We are not intended to absorb the light of the rainbow, enlightenment, joy and happiness, rather we are intended to transmit it; and in doing so to unfold its meaning for others, and for ourselves too.” —http://www.spiritualwisdom.org.uk/colours-of-the-rainbow.htm
“The rainbow represents the regenerate spiritual person – one who has lived out the path of enlightenment, whose potential has opened out like the lotus flower of the east, each stage represented by a new colour developing out of the one before.
The main seven colours symbolise wholeness or holiness. There are a variety of rainbows sometimes seen around those in the spiritual realms – the rainbow of the ‘aura’, as it is sometimes called, picturing the spiritual state of the person.
Yoga teaches that there are seven centers or chakras in the human body. These are spiritual centers – you will not find them described in a materialistic medical book.” — http://www.spiritualwisdom.org.uk/colours-of-the-rainbow2.htm
Akiane and Colton Burpo’s Christ
13) In the book, Heaven is for Real, The Burpo’s were themselves totally obsessed with finding out what Colton’s Jesus looked like “…as pastor, I wound up spending a lot of time at hospitals, in Christian bookstores, and at other churches–all places where there are lots of drawings and paintings of Christ….When we came across a picture of Jesus we’d ask Colton, “What about this one? Is that what Jesus looks like?’ pg 93. Finally Todd came across information of a girl by the the name of Akiane Kramarik who too had began having visions at the age of four. And as it turns out her descriptions of Heaven appear to be the same as Colton’s – so they say. Akiane is a Prodigy and paints the most beautiful paintings, “she states that God has given her the visions and abilities to create her artwork” –– http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiane_Kramarik. One of her paintings is that of the Christ of her visions, she calls him her ‘Prince of Peace’. Colton, turned to his dad when he saw Akiane’s Jesus and said, “Dad, that one’s right.” pg 145.
What does the bible tell us:
Exodus 20:4-5 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
That applies to images of Jesus too, be it statues, or any other religious paintings, even the movies. It leads to idolatry, breeds superstition and leads to occultism. If Jesus wanted us to know what he looked like there would be a full description of Him in the bible, but He has not because we are to believe by FAITH.
Corinthians 5:7 “7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.”
1 Peter 1:8 “8 whom having not seenyou love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory”
John 20:29 “29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Therefore all and I mean all representations of Jesus are false and have no backing by scripture.
Akiane is now 16 years old, this is what she has to say about Jesus,
“Jesus shared with us: ‘I am the way, the truth and the light. No one comes to my Father, but through me.’ I feel that he invited us to participate in the divinity. Each of us is one of kind [ sic ] original path to the way of truth and light, and without our individual love and effort we cannot understand and reach God” [Emphasis added] — http://akiane.com/blog/?tag=akiane.
She rejects Jesus as being the only way for mankind to be reconciled to God. She opposes what Jesus Christ taught in favor of Satan’s promise of divinity to Eve in Genesis:3:5. Akiane has clearly met another Jesus and if Colton’s Jesus looks the same as Akiane’s then we can be certain that Colton’s Jesus is anti-Christ too.
14) Besides all the other unbiblical nonsense that Colton saw in his ‘trip to Heaven’ that was penned down in his book Heaven is for Real, the one that will bring fear into people the most is the one where he speaks of the coming war. “There’s going to be a war, and it’s going to destroy this world. Jesus and the angels and the good people are going to fight against Satan and the monsters and the bad people. I saw it”. pg 136 Colton tells his father that he saw his father fighting in the war too, fighting for Jesus who wins the war in the end. The problem with this eschatological view (the study of the end times) is that it’s wrong. The Body of Christ (Church) are ‘raptured’ to Heaven before the Tribulation starts. The ‘church’ that remains is but the false church of the antiChrist – the Roman Catholic church who have it as their mission to take over Jerusalem for themselves. The time of the 7 year tribulation is for Israel – and everything will happen in Israel. God turns back to Israel as he seals 144,000 Jewish witness to do the preaching instead of gentiles along with the 2 witnesses mentioned in the Book of Revelation. Anyone who professes Jesus Christ as their saviour will be beheaded. The time of the Tribulation is for God’s Wrath upon the earth. God deals with mankind and the anti-Christ very severely – but will mankind repent? No. If Todd Burpo is still going to be on earth during the Tribulation according to Colton’s vision he has then missed the ‘Blessed Hope’. (Titus 2:13)
See all these articles on the rapture here: Rapture, Caught Up, The First Resurrection
Colton is the new Jesus.
15) Colton’s babysitter, Ali, one night hears Colton’s story regarding his sister in heaven and that he missed her terribly. Ali, shocked at his story ends up crying her heart out. She is deeply touched. Ali had grown up in a Christian home but had entertained doubts regarding her faith, for e.g., not knowing if all religions lead to the same God or not. “But Colton’s story about his sister strengthened her Christian faith” pg 130
So Colton’s story is more impressive than anything the Bible could offer. Even though the Bible is TRUE and Colton’s story is not. Satan loves to use emotions to tug at the heartstrings of unsuspecting victims. And he is bargaining on you not going to the Bible to check to see if what he is telling you is true or not. And the longer you refrain from testing these evil spirits, the deeper and deeper you are pulled into deception through more false teaching, until you are completely swallowed up with no where to go.
Paul’s Rapture, John’s Prophecies and Lazarus and the Rich Man:
16) On page 80 of Heaven is for Real, Todd tells us about the Apostle Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth in 2 Corinthians 12 about a man he knew personally (obviously, Paul himself) who was caught up to Heaven. And Todd also tells us about the Apostle John who had an angel appear to him and he penned a number of prophecies and described Heaven in great detail. Todd then quotes scripture from the Book of Revelation
Revelation 4:1-3 “1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.”
Basically Todd is trying to convince the reader that Colton’s vision is equal to that of Paul and John, but if Todd was a genuine Christian Pastor he would know the following:
“If I told you that I had recently visited there and only communicated what I knew was recorded in the Bible about it, you couldn’t object to what I said on the basis of my being biblically inaccurate. Accuracy, however, is not the only criterion for biblical discernment. There are many other instructions and examples that we must take into consideration. For example, the Apostle Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 12 of a “man in Christ” (no doubt Paul himself) who was caught up to Heaven. He didn’t know at the time whether it was an experience in which his spirit had left his body, or a vision while his spirit remained in his body. Nevertheless, he states that what he saw and heard in paradise was not lawful for a man to utter. Paul’s experience was followed by a humbling infirmity, which he states that God allowed him to suffer “lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations…“ (2 Corinthians:12:6-7)
That isn’t always the case in Scripture. The Apostle John obviously was given permission to declare what he witnessed in Heaven in the Book of Revelation. This would seemingly apply as well to the writer of the Book of Job.
But can we be sure that the visions and personal experiences of these writers are true? Absolutely–because their words are found in the Scriptures . Of the Word of God, the psalmist writes, “Thy word is true from the beginning…,” and Jesus said, “Thy word is truth” (Psalm:119:160; John:17:17). That is the ultimate verification that the experiences of those men of God indeed took place as they described. Furthermore, since the canon of Scripture was closed in the first century A.D., no one since that time can have his vision of-or his alleged visit to–Heaven validated in the same way.
Jesus gave us another insight to help our discernment when He told of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man, who had died, was in a place where he was tormented and suffering remorse. Yet he begged Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers so that they would not end up with him in “this place of torment.” Abraham’s response was: “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.” And again, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead“ (Luke:16:19-31) [Emphasis added] — http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/search-the-scriptures-daily/read/articles/is-heaven-is-for-real-for-real-an-exercise-in-discernment-13365.html
Todd Burpo’s deceptive faith:
17) On page 62, Todd Burpo was still trying to come to terms with Colton’s story, he said, “If Colton really had a supernatural encounter, I certainly didn’t want to ask him leading questions. We had taught Colton about our faith all his life. But if he really had seen Jesus and the angels, I wanted to become the student, not the teacher!”
Todd himself would appear to be duped and does not approve in proper biblical testing as per 1 John 4:1-6. He instead says that we must “be willing to accept reality and to call things what they are even when it is hard”. pg 75 So even though Colton’s story might be a bit hard to swallow, just believe it with childlike faith.
Todd also wanted to become a student of a 4 year old child instead of taking instruction from Jesus Christ (The Word of God). Is a 4 year old child now more truthful than the Word of God? The Bible says:
2 Timothy 3:15-17 “17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”
Proverbs 30:5 (Amp) “5Every word of God is tried and purified; He is a shield to those who trust and take refuge in Him.”
18) On page 82 of Heaven is for Real, we are told that “Roman Catholics practice confession as a sacrament, sharing their sins and shortcomings with a priest. Protestants practice confession too, though a little less formally, often confiding in God without an intermediary.” When I started reading this book I kept my eyes peeled for the Roman Catholic connection and was not really surprised when it showed up.
1) Catholics practice confession, genuine Christians do no not practice confession. Christians ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sin. 2) Confession and asking for forgiveness (repenting) is two different things. 3) The statement by Todd that he confides to “God without an intermediary” is very concerning for the bible says,
1 Tim 2:5 “5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus“
Todd prays to the Holy Spirit.
19) He says, “I breathed a ‘prayer of thanks’ to the Holy Spirit, who had clearly “shot down power,” giving me an answer for this grieving woman…” pg 146 Well we know that Todd lacks Jesus Christ as an intermediary, so he needs a new substitute; the holy spirit (lower case because it’s a false spirit)
No where in the bible are we told to pray to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will always point you to Jesus Christ the Son of God.
John 14:26 “26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
John 16:14 “14 Jesus speaking of the Holy Spirit said, “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you“
The bible does tell us the following about the Holy Spirit regarding prayer:
Romans 8:26 “26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”
Jude 1:20 “…build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.”
Scripture suggests that we pray “in the Holy Spirit”, which means we permit the Holy Spirit to guide our prayers and give us the right words to say, and during times when we don’t know what to say, the Holy Spirit automatically prays on our behalf with words that cannot be uttered, because He knows exactly what we need. This new idea that we pray to the Holy Spirit is a New Age concept – The false New Age holy spirit represents the 6th Chakra or the Third Eye.
When we pray, we can pray to God our Heavenly Father – Psalm 5:2 “Listen to my cry for help, my King and my God, for to you I pray”. To the Lord Jesus Christ, we pray as to the Father because they are equal. Or you can pray to our Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ – it does not matter, what ever makes you happy. Prayer to one member of the Trinity is prayer to all, because all three are One. Stephen, when he was being martyred, prayed – Acts 7:59 “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” . We are also to pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Paul said, that we are always give – Ephesians 5:20 “thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” . There is no fixed rule, to add a rule on how to address God is wrong.
Jesus Christ’s crucifixion
20) On page 149 in Heaven is for Real, Todd makes the most unbelievable statement regarding Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, he says, “The scripture says that as Jesus gave up his spirit, as he sagged there, lifeless on that Roman cross, God the Father turn his back. I am convinced that he did that because if he had kept on watching, he couldn’t have gone through with it” This kind of thinking is very similar to a man by the name of John Dominic Crossan’s (Jesus Seminar), who has had a great influence the Emergent church:
“If we are to believe that God deliberately sent his only son into the world to be brutally tortured and crucified, then I take that to be transcendental child abuse, and I will not have it.” — John Dominic Crossan, Speech at Duke University Conference on “Jesus in Context: Who Was He?”, February 19-21, 1998
For the undiscerning reader reading this book and does not understand the crucifixion, let me please explain so that you may know the truth and nothing but the truth, because you are not going to get it from Todd Burpo.
Isaiah 53:10 “10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. “
“And about the ninth hour Jesus “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46. This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1.
Isaiah 53:4-5 tells us that Jesus “bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed” and Galatians 3:13 tells us “He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us”.
In those awful moments on the cross, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” and 1 John 2:2 “2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” – and because of that God had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.
But then Jesus cried out from the cross, when Jesus uttered those words, John 19:30 “It is Finished” He was declaring the debt by mankind (the debt of sin) owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever.
The Catholic connection.
21) One of the biggest warning signs today for a genuine Christian is to note any Roman Catholic connection. Todd says on page 152 in Heaven is for Real, “A lot of our Catholic friends have asked whether Colton saw Mary, the mother of Jesus. The answer to that is also yes. He saw Mary kneeling before the throne of God and at times, standing besides Jesus. “She still loves him like a mom”. The Roman Catholic Church is spoken off in the book of Revelation as:
Revelation 17:4-6 “4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.”
The Catholic Mary (Queen of Heaven) is non other than a demonic goddess posing as Jesus’ mother. “The Queen of Heaven in the bible is a Babylonian goddess whom people worshiped. She has been incarnated to Roman Catholicism under the name ‘Mary’, Mary-Queen of Heaven. Many Catholics would deny that Mary worship is part of Catholicism but unfortunately this is not true as she holds a special place in the hearts of many.” — Please read more on Mary Queen of Heaven – Whore of Babylon
Jeremiah 7:18 (Amp) “18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger!
As you can see from the heaps of evidence above that was taken directly from Heaven is for Real that the ‘altered states of consciousness’ that Colton experienced was not genuine. Why? Is is due to his fathers sin of following after false doctrines. Have the Burpo’s delved into things, i.e, contemplative spirituality, that they should have not been delving into. Is this story even a lie? What ever it is, one thing is very clear, the story is not true, and if you choose to follow after this false Jesus with a pink stone in his crown and a pink pony, you will be following after a New Age Jesus. The bible says:
2 Timothy 4:1-5 “1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”
Thanks Deborah. I have read the same account on The Berean call. Thanks for reminding us to use our brains/common sense. People are mostly told to disengage their brains when it comes to the Supernatural – not true. The Word tells us we have sound minds and we must reason together. It astounds me to read and hear how many people are having these experiences lately and it is accepted as truth in our churches today. It was unheard of when we grew up – in fact it was rejected, now it is common and very common among the Americans. They seem to have overly active imaginations on just about everything. They are NOT authorities on anything, least on Theology, so don’t be fooled. Everything about them is exaggerated and hyped. We watch them on TBN, Daystar, GOD TV, u name it, shocking most of the times to hear what is being preached as truth. There are a FEW exceptions though, only but a FEW. This also links to the “little gods” doctrine – humanising Jesus and deifying man.
I included quite a lot of other stuff that Berean Call didn’t have. I also test the doctrine of Todd Bupro and we find were his problems lie too. When I read this book it astounded me how much of a fool Todd must think we are by the way he abuses scripture. And now they are making a movie!! Oi vey!
U’r so right Deborah. If one knows the Word then one can easily test Todd’s and Colton’s accounts against the WoG. I saw this interview on the 700Club and the first thing that bothered me was the fact that this child was scared. How can small children be afraid in the sweet presence of JC? In the Bible the children loved being around Jesus. I can go on and on….
On another subject: It is sad to see the amount of non-biblical and in fact non-Christian books to be found in shops like Cum-books and other Christian book stores. Also when you go for instance to the Christian religion section at CNA or Exclusive books, it is no wonder that people are easily being mislead. Where the ReAL thing is difficult to find, while books like The Secret are strewn inbetween!
>> It is sad to see the amount of non-biblical and in fact non-Christian books to be found in shops like Cum-books
It’s so bad at CUM that I don’t even call it a Christian store, I call it Satan’s den. They even sell Armish books and try pass that off as Christian. Unbelievable. I walk around and I just don’t know where to start, book after book of false teaching. I have 2 more books of South African authors to review – authors who are impacting South africans big time.
I just have a problem. I want to review Elsa Meyers new book “Nuutgemaak” but my Afrikaans is really not that good, it will take me ages to get through that book. Anyone want to buy it and review it please?? I would be so grateful! Unless there is an English copy of the book that I have missed. She is catching unsuspecting Afrikaans speaking people.
It’s madness. In fact the kid woke up screaming and I thought to myself, “for someone who had just come back from Heaven, you sure are scared.” Later in the book Colton tells his dad that he was ‘Yelling’ for his father to come to him. But that contradicts what his father said, he said he was SCREAMING.
Lizelle, it is astonishing to see this world- wide deception the Bible speaks of in these last days. What saddens me more is to see and speak to many believers who are under the sway of the wicked one as if they’ve already been given over to a spirit of delusion. I realised that many of them might NOT have grown up with sound Biblical teachings; they got saved in their 20’s under a charismatic type gospel (or even Calvinistic soteriology) and are so led away from sound Biblical truth – they have lots of zeal though. We have some friends who have exposed themselves to this other gospel that they can’t even properly interpret simple scriptures. As for CUM Books, yeah right, I do NOT frequent this bookshop because they are pleasing the world, offering so many varied interpretations of the Gospel. One must really know what you’re looking for in this bookshop. Even their DVDs are questionable and these “faith based” or “parables” movies are also screened on CTV (TBN), God TV and Daystar, most of them [not all] have nothing to do with the salvation Gospel of JC. Teaching good morals cannot be seperated from the One who introduced the morals – He is our authority – In the beginning was The WORD!
Someone who will be great for this job (of reviewing the afrikaans book) is Callie Joubert and Philip du Toit from this website – truthexposed.co.za
If I see the book, I will attempt a review.
I am very anxious looking through all the books and get really angry when I see all the disception! that is why I only buy books on recommendation of someone that I trust to know the difference between truth and deception. I have bought books by Berit Kjos online. Go to this website there are really interesting books, but just not always available in South Africa! http://www.crossroad.to/
They also have really good book reviews to check out!
Good luck and keep up the good work!
>>>I want to review Elsa Meyers new book “Nuutgemaak” but my Afrikaans is really not that good,<<<
Patience Aunt Debs, chance is it will be translated in your tongue soon. (bet you it will be called something like "overhauled"
I just read the review. Chapter on visions, dreams and revelations sounds intriguing??
Overhauled LOL, your’re so funny.
I once read a tiny book of hers in CUM books stores (yes, I actually read it there lol) I didn’t have money on me, so I took the book and sat on their leather chair and read it and she speaks the biggest load of bread-crumbs. Later I went back to buy the book and they were all gone and I don’t remember the name – for the life of me, I just can’t remember. It’s old age… 😛
Great, I have emailed them to see what they say.
HEAVEN IS FOR REAL: A DANGEROUS BOOK FOR AN APOSTATE AGE
By David Cloud – October 25, 2011 (first published August 18, 2011) http://www.wayoflife.org
Heaven Is For Real, a book about a four-year-old boy’s supposed visit to heaven, has sold over 1.5 million copies and is currently the # 6 best seller on Amazon. It has broken Thomas Nelson’s sales records and is popular with Independent Baptists. One pastor told me that it is “circulating around many of our IBaptist camps; many are recommending it.” The book is the true story of Colton Burpo, a Methodist pastor’s son who allegedly visits heaven during emergency surgery. There he meets a dead sister and great grandfather, sees Jesus and God the Father and the Holy Spirit and Satan, and learns things not revealed in Scripture. We don’t doubt that the little boy is convinced that he visited heaven, but we don’t believe for a minute that it actually happened.
First, the book is contrary to the testimony of Scripture that the apostles were the last to see the resurrected Christ. This was one of the evidences of apostleship (Acts 1:22; 1 Corinthians 9:1; 15:7). Paul said that he was the last of the apostles to see Christ, meaning that he saw Christ some time after the other apostles had seen him (1 Cor. 15:8). This occurred on more than one occasion in his life as described in the book of Acts. Paul gave this testimony in the context of giving the eyewitness evidence for Christ’s resurrection. We also know that the apostle John saw Christ on the island of Patmos as described in Revelation 1. All of the evidence we need for our faith is found in the testimony of Scripture and in these particular eyewitnesses.
Second, the book is contrary to Paul’s statement that when he had visited heaven he heard things that he was not allowed to repeat (2 Cor. 12:4). Obviously, then, a person cannot visit heaven and describe whatever he sees and hears there.
Third, the book Heaven Is for Real is contrary God’s emphasis on the priority and sufficiency of faith and Scripture. The book contains testimonies of how people have believed in God and heaven because of Colton’s alleged visitation, but the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6), and faith comes by hearing God’s Word, not by signs and wonders (Romans 10:17). In his account of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus taught that if someone does not hear the Scriptures, he will not “be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). All of the signs and revelation we need are found in the completed canon of Scripture (John 20:30-31). The Bible is able to make the man of God “perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works “(2 Timothy 3:16-17). God has told us everything He wants us to know about heaven at this time.
Fourth, the book Heaven Is for Real is contrary to the Bible’s plain teachings. For example, Colton says Jesus’ horse is rainbow-colored (p. 63), whereas the Bible says it is white (Rev. 19:11). Colton says the Holy Spirit shoots down power from heaven (p. 125), whereas the Bible says the Holy Spirit came from heaven at Pentecost and He is the power (Acts 1:8). Colton says everyone has wings in heaven except Jesus (p. 72), that the angel Gabriel sits on the left hand of God’s throne (p. 101), that the Holy Spirit is blue and sits in a chair near the throne of God (p. 102), and “for our Catholic friends” the book is happy to report that Mary stands in heaven beside Jesus (p. 152). Some might ask, how Colton could learn secrets about his dead sister who died in the womb and facts about his great grandfather that he had not been told. The answer is demons. Paul warned that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2 Cor. 11:14-15). The book Heaven Is for Real also promotes the visions of child progeny Akiane Kramarik, who began “seeing heaven” at age four (pp. 141-144). Colton claims that the “Jesus” that he saw in heaven is the same “Jesus” that Akiane drew from her visions at age nine. But Akiane’s religious faith is a New Age type faith in a vaguely defined “God.” It is religious mysticism rather than faith in an infallible Revelation from God and the blood atonement of Christ. Even if we knew what Jesus looked like, we are forbidden by God’s law to make His likeness (Exodus 20:4).
DANGERS IN CHRISTIAN BOOKSTORES
JANUARY 18, 2012
By David Cloud, http://www.wayoflife.org
Never have Christian books been so readily available to the average Christian and never has the spiritual danger associated with such books been so great. Sadly, the average member of a Bible-believing church does not know how to protect himself and his family from these dangers.
The following three crucial Bible truths can protect the child of God in these end times:
FIRST, THE LAST DAYS ARE CHARACTERIZED BY APOSTASY, NOT REVIVAL. Thus it is not surprising that we are confronted today with a vast amount of heresy and spiritual compromise. If ever there were a time when God’s people need to be knowledgeable and cautious it is today. “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. … For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables” (2 Tim. 3:13; 4:3-4).
SECOND, GOD WARNS HIS PEOPLE TO TEST EVERYTHING BY THE SCRIPTURES. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thess. 5:21). “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).
THIRD, SPIRITUAL ERROR IS CLOTHED IN THE APPEARANCE OF TRUTH AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is subtle and can deceive us if we are not well educated biblically and exceedingly careful. “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves” (Matt. 7:15). “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ” (2 Cor. 11:2). “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Cor. 11:13-15).
One of the greatest dangers in Christian bookstores is not dealt with in this book, since we have already dealt with them in other books. This is the Contemporary Christian Music that is promoted by the vast majority of bookstores today. (See the video series Music for Good or Evil and the new free eBook The Directory of Contemporary Worship Musicians, which are available from Way of Life Literature — http://www.wayoflife.org.)
Here we are going to deal with 14 other dangers in Christian bookstores.
1. SMORGASBORD OF MODERN BIBLE VERSIONS
The place we will begin our investigation into heresies and high places in the Southern Baptist Convention is the Bible section of any LifeWay bookstore.
There is a complete capitulation to the heresy of modern textual criticism and its Alexandrian Greek text and a capitulation to the idea that a multiplicity of versions is a blessing.
The smorgasbord principle in Bible versions is a very slippery slope. When the modern version path is first entered from a conservative KJV stance, it is typical for the individual to stay with the more conservative, literal modern translations. But these are very treacherous waters, and they frequently lead to the capitulation of all sense of spiritual discernment and to the acceptance of the strangest, most radical “versions” such as The New Living Bible and The Message. We will give many examples of this.
Before we go farther, though, we want to say that when we warn against the modern versions and promote the King James Bible, we are not fighting for some Ruckmanite principle such as that the King James was given by inspiration or that the King James is advanced revelation over the Greek and Hebrew or that to modernize or change the spelling of a word in the King James is to corrupt God’s Word. We are not saying that it is unimportant to learn the biblical languages or that we should throw away all of the lexicons. Some King James defenders do take such a stand, but that is not our position, and we are convinced that Peter Ruckman and Gail Riplinger and their followers have done nearly as much damage to the cause of the King James Bible as the modern versions have done.
The first great error of the modern versions is that they are based on a Greek text that was created in the 19th century through the humanistic “science” of modern textual criticism. This “science” treated the Bible as just another book and denied the divine inspiration of Scripture and God’s promise to preserve the Scripture. A large percentage of the principle names in the field of modern textual criticism are Christ-denying Unitarians and theological Modernists. (e.g., Simon, Bengel, Wettstein, Griesbach, Lachmann, Westcott, Hort, Schaff, Thayer, Briggs, Driver, Brown, Nestle, Liddle, Scott, von Soden, Kittel, Conybeare, Kenyon, Burkitt, Robinson, Lake, Souter, Clark, Moffatt, Goodspeed, Dodd, Bratcher, Colwell, Kilpatrick, Nida, Ehrman, Childs, Aland, Martini, Metzger, and Karavidopoulos).
We have documented this extensively in our book The Modern Bible Version Hall of Shame.
The modern Greek text removes or questions dozens of entire verses: Matthew 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:28; 16:9-20; Luke 17:36; 23:17; John 5:4; 7:53 – 8:11; Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:7; 28:29; Romans 16:24; 1 John 5:7.
The word difference between the Received Greek New Testament underlying the KJV and that underlying the modern versions is very large. More than 2,800 words are removed in the modern Greek text. That is the equivalent of the entire epistles of 1 and 2 Peter. (This exposes the myth that only 1/2 page of text is in question.)
Textual criticism creates a Greek text that weakens many doctrines, such as the doctrine of Christ’s deity. Consider, for example, 1 Timothy 3:16, where the word “God” is removed in all of the modern versions. We give many other examples of this in the book Why We Hold to the King James Bible.
John Burgon and many other Bible-believing scholars exposed modern textual criticism at its inception and warned that the textual critics were preferring Bible manuscripts that can be traced to Egypt at a time when heretics were tampering with the Scriptures and introducing heresies.
We have documented this in For Love of the Bible: The History of the Defense of the King James Bible and Its Received Greek Text.
Another great error associated with the modern versions is the principle of dynamic equivalency which has given translators great and frightful liberty in changing God’s words.
At this point, the waters get even more treacherous.
Consider The Message, which is extremely popular throughout evangelicalism and beyond. The following examples are typical:
KJV – “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
THE MESSAGE – “You’re blessed when you’re at the end of your rope. With less of you there is more of God and his rule.”
KJV – “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.”
THE MESSAGE – “You’re blessed when you get your inside world, your mind and heart, put right. Then you can see God in the outside world.”
KJV – “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.”
THE MESSAGE – “Here’s another way to put it: You’re here to be light, bringing out the God-colors in the world.”
You might say, “Who in the world would use and recommend such a corruption?”
The answer is a Who’s Who list of evangelicals and Southern Baptists. The Message has been recommended by Billy Graham, Warren Wiersbe, Jack Hayford, J.I. Packer, Michael Card, Leighton Ford, Bill Hybels, Lamar Cooper of Criswell College, Paul House of Southern Baptist Seminary, Bill and Gloria Gaither, Chuck Swindoll, Gary Smalley, Gordon Fee, Gordon MacDonald, Jerry Jenkins, John Maxwell, Joyce Meyer, Max Lucado, Michael W. Smith, the Newsboys, Phil Driscoll, Rebecca St. James, Stuart and Jill Briscoe, Tony Campolo, and Vernon Grounds, to name a few. Rick Warren quotes it frequently, five times in the first chapter of The Purpose-Driven Life. Joni Earckson Tada says, “WOW! What a treasure The Message is.” (This information was gathered from the NAVPress web site.).
A major problem with the modern version movement is a very practical one: it has weakened the authority of God’s Word through the smorgasbord principle. This has happened through an ever-expanding, almost bewildering, multiplicity of versions, and the people are encouraged simply to pick their favorites with no solid standard of biblical authority as an anchor. Consider the following testimony by a former Southern Baptist pastor:
“The problem with the SBC is that they have no absolute biblical authority. Although, while I was still SBC, we claimed to have settled the matter of the inerrancy of Scripture in 1986, we did not settle what Scripture is. The plethora of translations has continued unabated in the two decades since they ‘settled the matter of inerrancy.’ The abundance of translations provoked me to study the translation issue. I spent two years studying the issue, in an effort to disprove the idea that the King James was any better than the rest. Of course, when I approached the issue with an open mind and heart, the Holy Spirit taught me the truth. That was the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ for me. I left the convention in October 1996. With each translation saying something different, the casualty has been biblical discernment. The typical SBC church has no less than four different translations in any given service. So, it is impossible for the people to hear ‘Thus saith the Lord.’ EVERY ISSUE BECOMES DEBATABLE. EVERY CONVICTION BECOMES QUESTIONABLE. Then, spiritual discernment becomes typical of the time of the Judges (i.e., every man doing that which is right in his own eyes). Therefore, it makes sense that they are so willing and ready to accept the abominable heresies of The Shack.” (Marty Wynn, Lighthouse Baptist Church, Columbus, Georgia, e-mail to D. Cloud, May 21, 2011).
Consider Rick Warren, the most prominent and influential Southern Baptist today. He uses a multiplicity of versions in every sermon and in every book he writes. On a visit to Saddleback Church in 2003 I was interested to see that most people weren’t carrying Bibles. The reason became obvious when the sermon was preached. Six or seven versions were quoted, most of them loose paraphrases or dynamic equivalencies such as the Living Bible, the New Living Translation, The Message, the Today’s English Version, and the Contemporary English Version. It would be impossible to follow along in one’s Bible. The result is that many of the people do not bring Bibles and even those who do, have no way to test the preaching, because any biblical passage they would attempt to examine has dozens of variations.
This is a recipe for spiritual deception and an ideal environment for the promotion of heresy.
2. THE DANGER OF NEW EVANGELICAL POSITIVISM
One of the greatest dangers facing fundamentalist Christians today is the New Evangelical philosophy that has pervaded evangelicalism over the past 50 years. It is particularly dangerous because it appears at first glance to be biblically sound. The heart of New Evangelicalism is not the error that it preaches but the truth that it neglects. It focuses on the positive, largely avoids theological controversy and unpopular subjects (i.e., ecclesiastical separation, a fiery hell, separation from the world).
The New Evangelical narrows down his message, focusing only on a portion of the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). This means that much that the New Evangelical preaches and writes is scriptural and spiritually beneficial. The New Evangelical might say many good things about salvation, Christian living, love for the Lord, marriage, child training, sanctification, the deity of Christ, even the infallibility of Scripture.
When faced with a requirement of coming out plainly against error and naming the names of popular Christian leaders, though, he will refuse to take a stand and will, more likely, attack the one who is trying to force his hand or will lash out against “extreme fundamentalism” or “second degree separation” or some such thing.
Billy Graham is the king of positivism and non-judgmentalism. Graham’s books are on the shelves of the vast majority of Christian bookstores today. He is extremely influential, and his message has been described as “hard at the center but soft at the edges.” He says his job is merely to preach the gospel, that he is not called to get involved in doctrinal controversies.
In 1966 the United Church Observer, the official paper of the ultra liberal United Church of Canada (in 1997 Moderator Bill Phipps said Jesus Christ is not God), asked Graham a series of questions. His answers demonstrate the New Evangelical positive-only, non-judgmental style:
Q. In your book you speak of ‘false prophets’. You say it is the ‘full-time effort of many intellectuals to circumvent God’s plan’ and you make a quotation from Paul Tillich. Do you consider Paul Tillich a false prophet?
A. I HAVE MADE IT A PRACTICE NOT TO PASS JUDGMENT ON OTHER CLERGYMEN. …
Q. Do you think that churches such as The United Church of Canada and the great liberal churches of the United States that are active in the ecumenical movement and whose ministers study and respect the work of Paul Tillich and other great modern teachers are ‘apostate’?
A. I COULD NOT POSSIBLY PASS THIS TYPE OF JUDGMENT ON INDIVIDUAL CHURCHES AND CLERGYMEN WITHIN THE UNITED CHURCH OF CANADA — my knowledge of The United Church of Canada is too inadequate, and my ability to make such discernment is too limited. My books and writings are public knowledge but I love fellowship and work with many Christians who don’t agree with me theologically in everything. As to my calling everyone ‘apostate’ who reads and gets help from Tillich — this is preposterous. There are too many shades of theological opinion in a large denomination to lump them all off as liberal, neo-orthodox, conservative, fundamentalist, or what have you!
Q. Does your organization stand with us for a modern, enlightened, scholarly attempt to explain to our people what ‘The Bible says’? Or does it stand with those who describe us as ‘an apostate church spreading our unbelief’?
A. OUR EVANGELISTIC ASSOCIATION IS NOT CONCERNED TO PASS JUDGMENT — FAVORABLE OR ADVERSE — ON ANY PARTICULAR DENOMINATION. WE DO NOT INTEND TO GET INVOLVED IN THE VARIOUS DIVISIONS WITHIN THE CHURCH. We are simple Gospel preachers, not scholarly theologians — though several of our team members have their earned doctorates. We feel that our calling is that of specialists — winning people to a personal commitment to Jesus Christ! We do not intend to allow ourselves to become bogged down in the many religious crosscurrents (“Billy Graham Answers 26 Provocative Questions,” United Church Observer, July 1, 1966).
This is pure New Evangelicalism. The New Evangelical will preach against error in general terms but rarely will he do it plainly and specifically.
Graham’s refusal to preach anything beyond the most basic aspects of the gospel (and even that much is questionable) is why he is acceptable both to Roman Catholics and theological Modernists. Charles Dullea, Superior of the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome, said: “Because he is preaching basic Christianity, he does not enter into matters which today divide Christians. He does not touch on Sacraments or Church in any detail. … The Catholic will hear no slighting of his Church’s teaching authority, nor of Papal or Episcopal Prerogatives, no word against the mass or sacraments or Catholic practices. GRAHAM HAS NO TIME FOR THAT; he is preaching only Christ and a personal commitment to Him. The Catholic, in my opinion will hear little, if anything, he cannot agree with” (Dullea, “A Catholic Looks at Billy Graham,” Homiletic & Pastoral Review, January 1972).
Graham is only one example of the multiplicity of New Evangelical authors who fill the shelves of the average Christian bookstore today. David Jeremiah, Charles Stanley, and Max Lucado are prime examples. What they say is often scriptural; the error and danger lies in what they refuse to say. They refuse to deal with the whole counsel of God. They neglect the “hard things” like biblical separation but these are the very things that need to be preached in this day and time.
The emphasis of the books available in these bookstores is not on solid Bible preaching and teaching and plain exposure of those errors that are corrupting God’s people and work today. Rather, the emphasis is on “a positive proclamation of the truth” and feel-good shallow pabulum. It’s feel-good psychobabble fluff with a thin veneer of “Bible” falsely so-called (often some loose paraphrase such as The Message).
As J.I. Packer says about Richard Foster and the Renovare books, they are “mild on sin but firm on grace” (back cover to Foster’s book Life with God). Packer meant this to be a compliment, but it is actually an indictment, because the Bible is firm on sin as well as firm on grace. You can’t have a proper perspective of grace without a proper emphasis on sin, because it is the awfulness of sin and the greatness of God’s holiness and terrible justice that allows us to see grace in its proper perspective. Otherwise, it is “cheap grace,” and cheap grace is what lines the shelves of the average Christian bookstore.
You have, for example, Robert Schuller’s “Turning Hurts into Halos” and Kay Arthur’s “Lord, Heal My Hurts” and Charles Stanley’s “The Source of My Strength (Healing Your Wounded Heart),” David Jeremiah’s “A Bend in the Road (Experiencing God When Your World Caves In), and “Disappointment with God” and “What’s So Amazing about Grace” by Philip Yancey.
3. THE DANGER OF ECUMENICALISM
Christian bookstores today are filled with volumes promoting the ecumenical philosophy, which says that unity and fellowship are more important than doctrine and zeal for the truth and exposure of error. Consider some examples.
In his popular autobiography, Just As I Am, Billy Graham praises the pope and tells of how he turned his converts over to Roman Catholic churches. He also describes his close association with theological modernists for the sake of “evangelism.”
Chuck Colson’s popular book The Body claims that Protestant and Catholic doctrine is converging and says that they are part of the same “body.”
John Maxwell’s book Failing Forward promotes Catholic missions as a genuine form of Christianity.
Philip Yancey’s Where Is God When It Hurts claims that Roman Catholic missions are part of the “body of Christ.”
Jim Cymbala, in his book Fresh Power, says that Jesus prayed for all his people to become one, whether they are Evangelical, Charismatic, Baptist, or Lutheran.
Max Lucado, in his book In the Grip of Grace, praises God for the Church of Christ (who teach the heresy of baptismal regeneration), Pentecostals, Anglicans, Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics.
The popular author Richard Foster is a radical ecumenist whose vision is described like this: “I see a Catholic monk from the hills of Kentucky standing alongside a Baptist evangelist from the streets of Los Angeles and together offering up a sacrifice of praise. I see a people” (Streams of Living Water, 1998, p. 274).
Popular author Elisabeth Elliot, who is an Episcopalian and ecumenical in philosophy, spoke at the Roman Catholic Franciscan University in 1989 and at Notre Dame in 1998. She had nothing negative to say when her brother Thomas Howard joined the Roman Catholic Church.
Consider Robert Webber. He said: “A goal for evangelicals in the postmodern world is to accept diversity as a historical reality, but to seek unity in the midst of it. This perspective will allow us to see Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches as various forms of the one true church…” (Ancient-Future Faith, p. 85).
Consider John Michael Talbot. A priest encouraged him to be a bridge-builder between Protestantism and Catholicism (Troubadour for the Lord, p. 90). His winsome personality, ecumenical ventures, and soft rock, hymn-like music has created this bridge. His albums were the first by a Catholic artist to be accepted by both Protestant and Catholic listeners. In 1996 Talbot produced an ecumenical album (Brother to Brother) jointly with fellow CCM performer Michael Card, an evangelical. Of this venture, Card testified: “Doing this project has enabled us to become real friends. And along the way, the denominational lines have become really meaningless to me, and to John, too” (CCM Magazine, July 1996).
Consider Tony Campolo. You can find him practically anywhere–preaching the same ecumenically-popular message: He spoke at the National Council of Churches’ “A Gathering of Christians,” May 1988. He was on the editorial board for the production of the film Mother Teresa, which exalted the Roman Catholic nun and contained no warning about her false gospel. Campolo often uses Mother Teresa as an example of biblical Christianity, though she preached a false gospel, believed that all men are children of God, worshiped the wafer of the mass, and prayed to Mary. Campolo has spoken at self-esteem guru Robert Schuller’s Institute for Church Growth. He referred positively to Seventh-day Adventism in his book 20 Hot Potatoes Christians Are Afraid to Touch (chapter 3). Any lip service Campolo gives to the importance of doctrinal correctness is negated by his constant fellowship with heretics.
4. THE DANGER OF ANTI-FUNDAMENTALISM
Another popular philosophy you will find in the average Christian bookstore today is the spirit of anti-fundamentalism. The popular authors rarely denounce the Roman Catholic Church or theological modernism, but they are very bold to denounce biblical fundamentalism.
Jerry Bridges, for example, in his misnamed book Transforming Grace, says that “legalism” is expecting faithful church attendance, worrying about the length of a man’s hair, preaching against worldliness, and setting up fences. He says that “legalists: “have cast iron opinions” and see things as black and white, as if this were a terrible thing!
Chuck Swindoll, in his popular book The Grace Awakening, claims that “grace” includes an absence of “Bible bashing and dogmatism” and warns about strict fundamentalist ministries.
The average Christian bookstore is no friend of fundamentalist congregations.
5. THE DANGER OF THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT
The average Christian bookstore today is filled with books by Pentecostals and Charismatics who promote their unscriptural doctrines.
Jack Hayford, for example, is a very popular author in evangelical circles, even though he teaches that one must begin to speak in “baby tongues” before you can speak in mature tongues, and he says that God spoke to him and told him not to judge the Roman Catholic Church. (See our article “Beware of Jack Hayford” at the Way of Life web site.)
We have dealt extensively with the great danger of the Charismatic movement in The Pentecostal-Charismatic Movements: The History and the Error, which is available in print and eBook editions, as well as in a video series.
6. THE DANGER OF THE CONTEMPORARY CHURCH GROWTH PHILOSOPHY
The average Christian bookstore also features books by the popular church growth gurus such as Rick Warren of Saddleback Church and Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church.
There is a soft message, downplaying the “non-essentials” for the sake of attracting a crowd.
Rick Warren says, “I’m not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. Why be divisive?”
Willowcreek Community Church says, “There is no hell-fire and brimstone here, no Bible-thumping, just positive witty messages.”
Church growth gurus promote the music is neutral philosophy in order to draw crowds through popular musical styles.
In his book The Purpose Driven Church, Rick Warren says: “We need to admit that no particular style of music is ‘sacred.’” Saddleback Church has nine “worship venues,” including country line-dancing and island hula.
The church growth gurus promote the “non-judgmentalism” doctrine.
In The Purpose Driven Life, Warren says: “God warns us over and over not to criticize, compare, or judge each other. … Whenever I judge another believer, four things instantly happen: I lose fellowship with God, I expose my own pride, I set myself to be judged by God, and I harm the fellowship of the church” (p. 164).
In this heretical statement Warren makes no distinction between judging hypocritically (which is forbidden in Matthew 7) or judging on the basis of personal preference in matters not taught in Scripture (which is forbidden in Romans 14) and judging on the basis of the Bible (which is required by God).
7. THE DANGER OF CHRISTIAN PSYCHOLOGY
Many of the books lining the shelves of the average Christian bookstore promote the error of “Christian psychology.”
A prominent heresy in this field is the pursuit of self-esteem, which was borrowed from humanistic God haters like Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers.
James Dobson has been at the forefront of promoting psychology heresies. He claims that “lack of self-esteem produces more symptoms of psychiatric disorders than any other factor yet identified” (Dr. Dobson Answers Your Questions about Confident Healthy Families, 1987, pp. 73-74). His 1974 book Hide and Seek was designed “to formulate a well-defined philosophy–and approach to child rearing — that will contribute to self-esteem from infancy onwards.” He says, “… lack of self-esteem is a threat to the entire human family, affecting children, adolescents, the elderly, all socioeconomic levels of society, and each race and ethic culture” (What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew, p. 24). Dobson believes that lack of self-esteem is the cause of every social ill.
“Thus, whenever the keys to self-esteem are seemingly out of reach for a large percentage of the people, as in twentieth-century America, then widespread mental illness, neuroticism, hatred, alcoholism, drug abuse, violence, and social disorder will certainly occur. Personal worth is not something humans are free to take or leave. We must have it, and when it is unattainable, everybody suffers” (Dr. Dobson Answers Your Questions about Confident, Healthy Families, p. 67).
Because his teaching focuses on psychology rather than God’s Word, Dobson’s writings are popular across all denominational lines. Dobson has a large Roman Catholic audience and refuses to warn about Rome’s heresies. Mother Teresa was praised in his Clubhouse magazine. He accepted an honorary degree from the Roman Catholic Franciscan University. And he has been featured on the cover of the Roman Catholic New Covenant magazine, which teaches that we should pray to Mary.
David Seamands is another pioneer of the self-esteem movement. His hugely popular books Healing for Damaged Emotions and Healing of Memories seek to heal the believer of “Satan’s most powerful psychological weapon” which is “low self-esteem.” He aims to take the client back into the past to recover and heal memories of events that injured one’s self-esteem. Seamands’ mystical path toward self-esteem is “healing of memories” through psychological counseling and New Age techniques. He promotes things as positive visualization, guided imagery, dream analysis, and venting of emotions. Through visualization, the individual is taught to imagine painful past events in perfect detail and to imagine Jesus entering the scenes to bring healing. This is not only vain fantasy; it is occultic and it is a recipe for communing with deceiving spirits masquerading as angels of light.
Larry Crabb is another promoter of humanistic psychology under the guise of Christian counseling. He teaches psychological heresies such as self-esteem, Freud’s unconscious mind mind, unconditional love, and unconditional forgiveness. He claims that salvation and sanctification through God’s Word are not sufficient. Believers also need psychological counseling. He writes that the “the Word–understood, proclaimed, and obeyed–is itself sufficient to change lives” is wishful thinking because “it leaves large and significant areas of human experience untouched–and therefore unchanged” (Understanding People, p. 10).
Other authors who have brought the errors of humanistic psychology into Christian homes and churches are Clyde Narramore, Selwyn Hughes, Frank Minirth, Paul Meier, and Gary Collins.
In The Dark Side of Christian Counselling and Christ or Thereapy? E.S. Williams has exposed the great spiritual danger of Christian psychology. Williams is a medical doctor and a member of the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, England.
8. THE DANGER OF CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER
The contemplative movement has spread within evangelicalism like wildfire over the past decade. It has its own evangelical gurus, such as Richard Foster, but its methods and principles come from Roman Catholic monasticism.
Some of the popular Catholic mystics you will find in many evangelical bookstores are Julian of Norwich, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola (founder of the Jesuits who were at the forefront of the violent papal counter-reformation), Thomas Aquinas, Bernard of Clairvaux, Madame Guyon, Henri Nouwen, Brother Lawrence, Thomas Ryan, Henri Nouwen, John Main, Peter Kreeft, John Michael Talbot, Basil Pennington, Thomas Keating, and Thomas Merton.
Some of the popular contemplative writers are as follows:
RICHARD FOSTER claims that through thought-less meditation one can “center” deep within oneself and “actually encounter the living Christ” and “be addressed by his voice” (Celebration of Discipline, p. 26). He even says that the meditation practitioner can enter “into a deep inner communion with the Father where you look at Him and He looks at you” (p. 27). Foster promotes a visualization practice where the individual leaves his body and goes “deep into outer space” into the very “presence of the eternal Creator” and there listens carefully and gets instruction directly from God (Celebration of Discipline, 1978 edition, pp. 27-28).
KEN BLANCHARD encourages borrowing from pagan religions. He says, “Our folks get to hear words of wisdom from great prophets and spiritual leaders like Buddha, Mohammed … Yogananda and the Dalai Lama” (foreword to What Would Buddha Do at Work? 2001). Blanchard has strong ties with the New Age and recommends many New Age books. For example, he wrote the foreword to the 2007 edition of Jim Ballard’s book Little Wave and Old Swell, which is inspired by Hindu guru Paramahansa Yogananda. This book is designed to teach children that God is all and man is one with God. In the foreword Blanchard makes the amazing statement: “Yogananda loved Jesus, and Jesus would have loved Yogananda.” I was a disciple of Yogananda before I was saved, and there is no doubt that he did NOT love the Jesus of the Bible! I renounced Yogananda and his false christ after I was born again.
THOMAS MERTON was a Catholic Trappist monk who intertwined pagan yogic practices with the contemplative practices of the Catholic “saints.” Merton not only studied Buddhism and Sufism (mystical Islam), he said, “I’m deeply impregnated with Sufism” (Rob Baker, Merton and Sufism, p. 109), and, “I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity. … I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can” (David Steindl-Rast, “Recollection of Thomas Merton’s Last Days in the West,” Monastic Studies, 7:10, 1969). Merton also said: “Asia, Zen, Islam, etc., all these things come together in my life. It would be madness for me to attempt to create a monastic life for myself by excluding all these” (Baker, Merton and Sufism, p. 41).
BASIL PENNINGTON taught that man shares God’s divine nature. “We are united with everybody else in our human nature and in OUR SHARING OF A DIVINE NATURE, so we are never really alone, we have all this union and communion” (interview with Mary NurrieStearns, “Transforming Suffering,” 1991, Personal Transformation website, . Pennington also said, “… the soul of the human family is the Holy Spirit” (Centered Living, p. 104).
THOMAS KEATING says” “Contemplative prayer is the opening of mind and heart, our whole being, to God, the Ultimate Mystery, BEYOND THOUGHTS, WORDS, AND EMOTIONS. It is a process of interior purification THAT LEADS, IF WE CONSENT, TO DIVINE UNION” (Keating interview with Kate Olson, “Centering Prayer as Divine Therapy,” Trinity News, Trinity Church in the City, New York City, volume 42, issue 4, 1995). Keating even recommends occultic Kundalini yoga.
JOHN MICHAEL TALBOT, who is very influential in the contemplative prayer movement, says that Mary “intercedes to God on my behalf” and testifies that he has felt “the presence of Mary becoming important in my life” (Contemporary Christian Music Magazine, November 1984, p. 47). In his book Simplicity, he says: “I have found praying the Rosary to be one of the most powerful tools I possess in obtaining simple, childlike meditation on the life of Jesus Christ.”
PHILIP YANCEY promotes the contemplative movement in his book Prayer: Does It Make Any Difference? He quotes the Buddhist-Catholic monk Thomas Merton, goddess worshiper Sue Monk Kidd, pantheist Meister Eckhart, David Steindl-Rast (who denies the substitutionary atonement of Christ), Richard Rohr (who worships as New Age “cosmic” Christ). Yancy also quotes Catholic “saint” Teresa of Avila and the heretical Catholic contemplative text The Cloud of Unknowing, which promotes a mindless communion with “God” by means of a “mantra.”
TONY CAMPOLO promotes the contemplative movement in his book The God of Intimacy and Action. He praises Catholic saints such as Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, Teresa of Avila, and Catherine of Siena. He seems contemplative mysticism as the path to interfaith unity. Campolo describes his own practice: “I get up in the morning a half hour before I have to and spend time in absolute stillness. I don’t ask God for anything. I just simply surrender to His presence and yield to the Spirit flowing into my life. … An interviewer once asked Mother Teresa, ‘When you pray, what do you say to God?’ She said, ‘I don’t say anything. I just listen.’ So the interviewer asked, ‘What does God say to you?’ She replied, ‘God doesn’t say anything. He listens.’ That’s the kind of prayer I do in the morning” (Outreach Magazine, July/ August 2004, pp. 88, 89).
BRENNAN MANNING promotes the contemplative movement. In The Signature of Jesus Manning promotes the dangerous practice of centering prayer, which involves chanting “a sacred word” to empty the mind and allegedly enter into silent experiential communion with God within: “[T]HE FIRST STEP IN FAITH IS TO STOP THINKING ABOUT GOD AT THE TIME OF PRAYER. … enter into the great silence of God. Alone in that silence, the noise within will subside and the Voice of Love will be heard. … Choose a single, sacred word … repeat the sacred word inwardly, slowly, and often” (pp. 212, 215, 218). Manning calls centering prayer a “GREAT DARKNESS” (The Signature of Jesus, p. 145) and an entire chapter of his book is devoted to “Celebrate the Darkness.” Manning recommends repeating an eight-word mantra (“The Lord is my Shepherd, I lack nothing”) for 10 minutes. “The first step toward rejuvenation begins with accepting where you are and exposing your poverty, frailty, and emptiness to the love that is everything. DON’T TRY TO feel anything, THINK ANYTHING, or do anything … Don’t force prayer. Simply relax in the presence of the God you half believe in and ask for a touch of folly” (The Ragamuffin Gospel, p. 196). Manning recommends spending three days in silence without reading the Bible.
9. THE DANGER OF INCLUSIVISM
We could give many examples of how that the heretical idol of inclusivism is present in the Southern Baptist Convention. Here I am referring to the doctrine that men can be saved apart from faith in Christ.
Billy Graham has blazed the trail in this. In an interview with McCall’s magazine, January 1978, entitled “I Can’t Play God Any More,” Graham said: “I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost—were going to hell—if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I no longer believe that. … I believe that there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God—through nature, for instance—and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying ‘yes’ to God.” In 1985, Graham affirmed his belief that those outside of Christ might be saved. Los Angeles reporter David Colker asked Graham: “What about people of other faiths who live good lives but don’t profess a belief in Christ?” Graham replied, “I’m going to leave that to the Lord. He’ll decide that” (Los Angeles Herald Examiner, July 22, 1985). In 1993, Graham repeated this doctrine in an interview with David Frost. “And I think there is that hunger for God and people are living as best they know how according to the light that they have. Well, I think they’re in a separate category than people like Hitler and people who have just defied God, and shaken their fists at God. … I would say that God, being a God of mercy, we have to rest it right there, and say that God is a God of mercy and love, and how it happens, we don’t know” (The Charlotte Observer, Feb. 16, 1993). In an interview with Robert Schuller in May 1997, Graham again said that he believes people in other religions can be saved without consciously believing in Jesus Christ. “[God’s] calling people out of the world for His name, whether WHETHER THEY COME FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD, OR THE BUDDHIST WORLD, OR THE CHRISTIAN WORLD OR THE NON-BELIEVING WORLD, THEY ARE MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN CALLED BY GOD. THEY MAY NOT EVEN KNOW THE NAME OF JESUS but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven” (television interview of Billy Graham by Robert Schuller, broadcast in southern California, Saturday, May 31, 1997).
Some conservative SBC leaders like Al Mohler have reproved Rob Bell and his book Love Wins, but what is Rob Bell saying today that Billy Graham hasn’t been saying for more than 30 years?
Speaking of Rob Bell, his universalistic book Love Wins (“even the most ‘depraved sinners’ will eventually give up their resistance and turn to God”) isn’t sold in LifeWay bookstores, but an earlier book, Velvet Elvis, has been sold since it was first published in 2005. Here Bell claims that Jesus is already with people even in their false religions, thus “the issue isn’t so much taking Jesus to people who don’t have him, but going to a place and pointing out to the people there the creative, life-giving God who is already present in their midst” (Velvet Elvis, p. 88).
C.S. Lewis, whose writings are fervently loved among Southern Baptists and are sold in LifeWay bookstores, claimed that followers of pagan religions can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ: “There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence … Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position” (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, HarperSanFrancisco edition, 2001, pp. 64, 208, 209). Lewis’s The Chronicles of Narnias intertwines a few vague biblical themes with pagan mythology: nymphs, fauns (part man and part goat), dwarfs, centaurs (part man and part horse), Dryads (tree-women), and Naiads (well-women). All of these creatures are depicted as serving Aslan, the alleged Christ figure. Lewis presents the deeply heretical idea of good magic. He calls Aslan’s power “Deep Magic” and Aslan’s father’s power as “Emperor’s Magic.” He introduces the pagan god Bacchus and his orgies as a desirable thing. He presents the myth of “Father Christmas.” He teaches that Adam’s first wife was not Eve but rather a woman named Lilith and that she was a witch.
Henri Nouwen wrote: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, 1998, p. 51).
Max Lucado, whose books are sold in LifeWay bookstores and whose writings are hugely popular among Southern Baptists, preaches the same heresy. In the book Max on Life the following question is asked: “What about the people who have never heard of God? Will God punish them?” Lucado replies: “No, He will not. Heaven’s population includes throngs of people who learned the name of their Savior when they awoke in their eternal home” (p. 222).
Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary and author of Uncommon Decency, says that after a rabbi friend of his died, he “held out the hope that when he saw Jesus he would acknowledge that it was Him all along, and that Jesus would welcome him into the heavenly realm” (Christian Post, March 20, 2011).
Popular author Josh McDowell says that he does not know whether “those who have never heard about Jesus will be automatically damned” (5 Minutes with Josh, April 1985). He believes that the Scriptures imply that “someone who has never heard of Jesus can be saved.” He says, “We do believe that every person will have an opportunity to repent and that God will not exclude anyone because he happened to be born ‘at the
wrong place and time.’”
Clark Pinnock, author of Salvation in a Pluralistic World, writes: “Faith in Jesus as the Savior of the world leaves room for us to be open and generous to other religious traditions. … I welcome the Saiva Siddhanta literature of Hinduism … Japanese Shin-Shu Amida … Buddha as a righteous man … Mohammed as a prophet…”
Dallas Willard says, “It is possible for someone who does not know Jesus to be saved” (Cutting Edge magazine, Winter 2000).
Tony Campolo said: “I am not convinced that Jesus only lives in Christians” (The Charlie Rose Show, cited from Calvary Contender, October 1, 1999). When asked by Bill Moyers on MSNBC in 1996 whether evangelicals should try to convert Jews he replied: “I am not about to make judgments about my Jewish brothers and my Muslim brothers and sisters.”
Popular author Brennan Manning, in his books The Signature of Jesus and Gentle Revolutionaries, describes a dream he has had about judgment day. He sees Adolf Hitler and Hugh Hefner (founder of Playboy magazine) and himself and others going before God to be judged, but God just takes them by the hand and walks them home. The implication is that everyone is accepted by God through grace, regardless of whether they repent and believe the gospel and have a born again experience.
10. THE DANGER OF THE EMERGING CHURCH
Emerging Church is the name for a new approach to missions and church life among some “evangelicals” for these present times. Since society is changing, the church must change. It is the latest heresy within the broad tent of evangelicalism. Fifty years ago they rejected “separatism” for a more “positive” Christianity. The breaking down of the walls of separation between sound churches and unsound, truth and heresy, has results in the wholesale corruption and compromise of “evangelicalism,” including the largest evangelical denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention.
Consider BRIAN MCLAREN. His book A New Kind of Christian won a Christianity Today Award of Merit, but it is filled with heresy. It is about an evangelical pastor who has a crisis of faith and submits himself to the guidance of a liberal Episcopalian who leads him into “Postmodern Christianity.” The book teaches that the Bible is not the infallible Word of God and that all doctrines and theologies are non-absolute, that we need to approach the Bible “on less defined terms” (p. 56). It teaches that the Bible alone should not be the authority, but that the Bible should only be one of the authorities, that others include tradition, reason, exemplary people and institutions one has come to trust, and spiritual experience (pp. 54, 55). It teaches that it is wrong and Pharisaical to look upon the Bible as “God’s encyclopedia, God’s rule book, God’s answer book” (p. 52).
Consider ROB BELL, author of Velvet Elvis. He claims that Jesus is already with people even in their false religions, thus “the issue isn’t so much taking Jesus to people who don’t have him, but going to a place and pointing out to the people there the creative, life-giving God who is already present in their midst” (Velvet Elvis, p. 88). Bell says that Christ has given believers the authority to come up with new interpretations of the Bible (Velvet Elvis, p. 50). He says the New Testament epistles “aren’t first and foremost timeless truths” (p. 62) and claims that the apostles didn’t “claim to have the absolute word from God” (p. 57). In his 2011 book Love Wins, Bell teaches that most people will eventually be reconciled to God and that there is opportunity for salvation for those who do not name the name of Christ. “The love of God will melt every hard heart, and even the most ‘depraved sinners’ will eventually give up their resistance and turn to God.” He says the statements in Bible about hell being a place of fire and torment are mere poetry.
Consider DONALD MILLER, author of Blue Like Jazz. His popular book is a harsh rant against traditional evangelical Christianity and he frequently takes shots at doctrinal dogmatism. In discussing his involvement in church in his youth he writes, “I wished I could have subscribed to aspects of Christianity but not the whole thing” (p. 30). He says, “In order to believe Christianity, you either had to reduce enormous theological absurdities [i.e., Garden of Eden, universal flood] into children’s stories or ignore them” (p. 31). He wanted to believe the gospel “free from the clasp of fairy tale” (p. 35). He says it is wrong to have “rules and laws and principles to judge each other against” (p. 215).
Consider ERWIN MCMANUS, author of The Barbarian Way. Erwin McManus calls upon Christians to live “the barbarian way” in contrast to the traditional Bible path, which he describes as “civilized.” He says those on the barbarian way “have little patience for institutions” and do not focus on “requirements” (p. 6). He says faith should not be restrained and domesticated (p. 10). Those who follow the barbarian way “are not required or expected to keep in step” and “there is no forced conformity” (p. 71). He says that those who are on the barbarian way follow Christ’s voice but this voice is not necessarily found in the Bible (p. 84).
Consider DAVID FOSTER, author of A Renegade’s Guide to God. Foster says, “We won’t be ‘told’ what to do or ‘commanded’ how to behave.”
Consider DONALD MCCULLOUGH, author of If Grace Is So Amazing Why Don’t We Live Like It? He says that he doesn’t like the type of preaching that says “… don’t do that, curb you appetites, reign in desire, discipline and sacrifice yourself.”
Consider MARK DRISCOLL, senior pastor of Mars Hills Church in Seattle. He describes himself as “theologically conservative and culturally liberal.” His church hosts champagne dance parties and beer brewing lessons; the men watch and discuss R-rated movies. The church operates a theater called Paradox that hosts secular rock concerts.
11. THE DANGER OF PROCESS SALVATION
Consider Dallas Willard. He writes, “Why is it that we look upon salvation as a moment that began our religious life instead of the daily life we receive from God?” (The Spirit of the Disciplines). He rejects the gospel of Christ’s blood atonement (The Divine Conspiracy, pp. 44, 49).
Consider the very popular author Elisabeth Elliot. In the book Taking Flight she writes: “Those who receive Christ are given not an ‘instant’ kingdom’ but the ‘right to become children of God.’ … It does not say God makes them instant children of God. It says He gives them the right to become” (page 12).
Consider popular writer Tony Campolo. In Letters to a Young Evangelical he writes: “When I was a boy growing up in a lower-middle-class neighborhood in West Philadelphia, my mother, a convert to Evangelical Christianity from a Catholic Italian immigrant family, hoped I would have one of those dramatic ‘born-again’ experiences. … BUT IT NEVER WORKED FOR ME. … It took me quite some time to realize that entering into a personal relationship with Christ DOES NOT ALWAYS HAPPEN THAT WAY. … In my case INTIMACY WITH CHRIST WAS DEVELOPED GRADUALLY OVER THE YEARS, primarily through what Catholic mystics call ‘centering prayer.’ … I learned about this way of having a born-again experience from reading the Catholic mystics, especially The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola” (pp. 25, 26, 30, 31).
There is no process salvation found in the New Testament. That is Catholicism. That is sacramentalism, but it is not New Testament salvation. Jesus described salvation as a “birth” and a “conversion” (John 3:3; Matthew 18:3). The salvations that are described for us in the book of Acts were all of the born again/conversion type. We consider the 3,000 on the Day of Pentecost, the Apostle Paul, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia, the Philippian jailer, among others. Paul described salvation as a dramatic spiritual event with a clear before and after (Ephesians 2:1-2).
12. THE DANGER OF THE PRO-HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT
There is a rapidly growing tendency among popular Christian writers to accept unrepentant homosexuals as genuine Christians and to refuse to “judge” them.
Chris Seay, author of Faith of My Fathers, says churches are not “called to be moral police” and that we should “approach homosexuals without condemnation” (“Shayne Wheeler and Chris Seay on Homosexuals and the Church,” ChurchRelevance.com, June 19, 2007).
Donald McCullough says that “condemning homosexuality feels natural because about 95 percent of us could never imagine engaging in such a practice” but “in a world turned upside down by grace, we must distrust whatever feels natural” (If Grace Is So Amazing, Why Don’t We Like It, pp. 201, 202).
Dan Kimball says: “Because this is such a huge issue in our culture, and because all of the tension and discussion on this issue is over what the Bible says about it, we can no longer just regurgitate what we have been taught about homosexuality. … Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits” (They Like Jesus but Not the Church, pp. 137, 138).
Philip Yancey was scheduled to be the keynote speaker at the Gay Christian Network’s annual Mountain Top Experience in January 2011. The other main speaker was “Rev.” Ann Phillips who “has been married for four years to her soulmate, Heather Wayne.” Obviously he will not be condemning their unrepentant sin. In a 2004 interview with Candace Chellew-Hodge for Whosoever, a homosexual publication, Yancy said, “When it gets to particular matters of policy, like ordaining gay and lesbian ministers, I’m confused, like a lot of people (“Amazed by Grace,” Whosoever online magazine).
Tony Campolo believes that homosexuals are usually born that way, that it is not a “volitional” issue, and they should be allowed to join churches and be ordained without renouncing homosexuality as such as long as they remain “celibate.” Campolo’s wife, Peggy, “argues that the church’s traditional teaching on homosexuality is mistaken–just as the church’s traditional teaching on the role of women, slavery, and divorce is also mistaken” (Wikipedia, source: “Straight But Not Narrow,” keynote address, Evangelicals Concerned, Western Region 1994, audio cassette). Peggy Campolo is a national leader of the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, which urges Baptist congregations to be supportive of homosexuals.
Brennan Manning identifies “homophobia” as “among the most serious and vexing moral issues of this generation” (Abba’s Child).
Brian McLaren says: “Frankly, many of us don’t know what we should think about homosexuality. … We aren’t sure if or where lines are to be drawn, nor do we know how to enforce with fairness whatever lines are drawn. … Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making pronouncements” (“Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question,” Jan. 23, 2006, .
13. THE DANGER OF HATING THE RAPTURE
Christian bookstores feature many writers that hate the doctrine of an imminent Rapture of the saints.
Tony Campolo hates dispensationalism and rejects the doctrine of Christ’s imminent return. He calls it “a weird little form of fundamentalism.” Speaking at the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship’s annual meeting in June 2003, Campolo said: “That whole sense of the rapture, which may occur at any moment, is used as a device to oppose engagement with the principalities, the powers, the political and economic structures of our age” (“Opposition to women preachers evidence of demonic influence,” Baptist Press, June 27, 2003).
Brian McLaren mocks the “fundamentalist expectations” of a literal second coming of Christ with its attendant judgments on the world and assumes that the world will go on like it is for hundreds of thousands of years (A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 305). He calls the literal, imminent return of Christ “pop-Evangelical eschatology” (Generous Orthodoxy, p. 267) and the “eschatology of abandonment” (interview with Planet Preterist, Jan. 30, 2005, . McLaren says that the book of Revelation is not a “book about the distant future” but is “a way of talking about the challenges of the immediate present” (The Secret Message of Jesus, 2007, p. 176).
Mark Driscoll mocks the idea of a rapture for believers and a one-world government with an Anti-christ who makes people wear a mark to buy, sell or trade (Confessions of a Reformissional, pp. 49-50). He added that this kind of end-time ‘mission’ was not a message from Jesus but rather one ‘concocted from a cunning Serpent’” (“Mark Driscoll Rejects McLaren but Embraces Contemplative,” Jan. 11, 2008, . Driscoll also mocks the imminent Rapture doctrine. He claims that the Rapture doctrine is evidence of the sickness of American Christians and mocks those who have the goal of leaving “this trailer park of a planet before God’s tornado touches down on all the sinners” (The Radical Reformission, p. 78). He calls dispensationalists “nutty, Christian, end-times-prophecy Kaczynskis” (p. 165). [Ted Kaczynski was the “Unabomber” terrorist who murdered three people and maimed 23 others in his 18-year-long campaign against modern technology.]
Dan Kimball describes how that he rejected dispensational theology and the doctrine of an imminent Rapture to his current position, that “the kingdom of God is here, now” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, pp. 87-90, 102).
Ed Stetzer says it is wrong to worry about whether the Rapture is coming. “When the disciples had an inordinate interest in the end times, much like we do today in North America among evangelicals, Jesus said, ‘Do not get focused on that’” (Breaking the Missional Code, p. 40). He is referring to Acts 1:6-8, but Jesus was not talking there about the timing of the Rapture but about the coming of the kingdom of God. The disciples were expecting the kingdom to be set up immediately, but Jesus told them to focus rather on preaching the gospel and leave the timing of the kingdom to Him. This passage corrects the emerging church doctrine that we are building the kingdom of God in the world today, but it does not support the idea that we shouldn’t be concerned about the imminent return of Christ.
14. THE DANGER OF OTHER MISCELLANEOUS HERESIES AND HERETICS
Consider the popular author C.S. LEWIS. He (1) Promoted ecumenism. (In the book Mere Christianity he said that Christianity is a large house with many different acceptable rooms, such as Catholicism, Protestantism, etc.) (2) He denied the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (3) He believed in theistic evolution. (5) He rejected the Bible as the infallible Word of God. (5) He denied the doctrine of an eternal fiery hell. (5) He believed in prayers for dead and confessed his sins to a priest. (6) He claimed that followers of pagan religions can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ: “There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence … Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position” (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, HarperSanFrancisco edition, 2001, pp. 64, 208, 209).
Lewis’s The Chronicles of Narnias intertwines a few vague biblical themes with pagan mythology: nymphs, fauns (part man and part goat), dwarfs, centaurs (part man and part horse), Dryads (tree-women), and Naiads (well-women). All of these creatures are depicted as serving Aslan, the alleged Christ figure. Lewis presents the deeply heretical idea of good magic. He calls Aslan’s power “Deep Magic” and Aslan’s father’s power as “Emperor’s Magic.” He introduces the pagan god Bacchus and his orgies as a desirable thing. He presents the myth of “Father Christmas.” He teaches that Adam’s first wife was not Eve but rather a woman named Lilith and that she was a witch.
Consider NORMAN VINCENT PEALE. He died in 1994 but his books are still popular. In an interview with Phil Donahue in 1984, Peale said: “It’s not necessary to be born again. You have your way to God; I have mine” (Hugh Pyle, Sword of the Lord, Dec. 14, 1984). In an interview with Modern Maturity magazine, December-January 1975-76, Peale was asked if people are inherently good or bad. He replied: “They are inherently good–the bad reactions aren’t basic. Every human being is a child of God and has more good in him than evil–but circumstances and associates can step up the bad and reduce the good. I’ve got great faith in the essential fairness and decency–you may say goodness–of the human being.”
Consider ROBERT SCHULLER. In his book Self Esteem New Reformation Schuller says, “It is shallow and insulting to define sin as rebellion against God,” and, “Positive Christianity does not hold to human depravity, but to human inability,” and, “Hell is the loss of pride that follows separation from God,” and “Jesus never called a person a sinner.” (See the article “Evangelicals and Heretic Robert Schuller” at the Way of Life web site for documentation.)
Consider BRUCE WILKINSON. His A Prayer of Jabez has been turned into a marketing bonanza. There is a Prayer of Jabez for women and one for the overweight. There are Prayer of Jabez teddy bears, book markers, bracelets, Bible covers, posters, coins, and shawls. In this book Wilkinson said: “I want to teach you how to pray a daring prayer that God ALWAYS answers. It is brief–only one sentence with four parts–and tucked away in the Bible, but I believe it contains they key to a life of extraordinary favor with God. Thousands of believers who are applying its truths are seeing MIRACLES happen on a regular basis” (Preface).
Consider G.K. CHESTERTON (1874-1936). This Roman Catholic writer continues to have a large influence. Not only did he promote Rome’s ancient sacramental heresies, he accepted theistic evolution (Orthodoxy, p. 30). A 2001 edition of Orthodoxy has an introduction by Philip Yancy that explains Chesterton’s attraction for this generation. Yancy says, “Chesterton seemed to sense instinctively that a stern prophet will rarely break through to a society full of religion’s ‘cultured despisers’; he preferred the role of jester. … In a time when culture and faith have drifted even further apart, we could use his brilliance, his entertaining style, and above all his generous and joyful spirit. When society becomes polarized, as ours has, it is as if the two sides stand across a great divide and shout at each other. Chesterton had another approach: He walked to the center of a swinging bridge, roared a challenge to any single combat warrior, and then made both sides laugh aloud” (Orthodoxy, Image Books, 2001, p. xix). The fact that this is not the type of “prophet” or the type of defense of the faith that we see in Scripture doesn’t bother the emerging church one iota.
Consider LESSLIE NEWBIGIN (1909-1998). He was a bishop in the very liberal Church of South India and was Associate General Secretary in the radically heretical World Council of Churches. In The Gospel in a Pluralist Society Newbigin denied that the Bible is the verbally-plenarily inspired Word of God and said the 18th century defenders of the faith were in error when they taught that the Bible is a set of timeless truths. Newbigin falsely claimed that Jesus did not leave behind “a book, nor a creed, nor a system of thought, nor a rule of life” (p. 20). Newbigin wrote, “All so-called facts are interpreted facts. . . What we see as facts depends on the theory we bring to the observation” (The Gospel in a Pluralist Society, p. 21). Newbigin called the split between liberals and fundamentalists “tragic” (p. 24). He taught that there is the possibility of salvation apart from faith in Christ.
Consider PAUL WILLIAM YOUNG, author of The Shack, which is about redefining God. It is about a man who becomes bitter at God after his daughter is murdered and has a life-changing experience in the very shack where the murder occurred; but the God he encounters is most definitely not the God of the Bible. Young’s depicts God the Father as a black woman who loves rock & roll. Young’s god is the god of the emerging church. He is cool, loves rock & roll, is non-judgmental, does not exercise wrath toward sin, does not send unbelievers to an eternal fiery hell, does not require repentance and the new birth, and puts no obligations on people. (See “The Shack’s Cool God” at the Way of Life web site, http://www.wayoflife.org.)
We could give many more examples of dangers in Christian bookstores, but this should be sufficient for the wise. We must remember that the last days are c
I apologise for not being online. Just a quick tip. The Berean Call has an excellent article on this particular book. Tack it to this one (haven’t read this one yet though) and I pray there’ll be more open ears and eyes. Unfortunately, this saying from Nigeria will encapsulate those lapping up THIS book- ‘ A lost dog never hears its owner’s whistle’. I pray it won’t be so for those who’ll read your article!
Been there, done that – only some parts though. The rest of this article is extra stuff.
Am glad this is extra stuff. As we say here in Naija, a lost dog won’t hear its Owner’s whistle. Some will hear and pay no attention to it, some will be to far away to hear it, some will ignore the whistle.
Debs, keep on truckin’!
I hope SOME hear.
>> keep on truckin’!
What is funny for me is that all these so-called heaven trips are almost all near-death experiences. If you’re almost going to die you get to go to this “heaven experience”. I don’t think Paul or John was on their death bed when they saw heaven, neither having anything like a near death experience? Paul also did not go around wanting to tell the world about heaven.
I found this verse a while ago when I heard about the Retha Mcpherson story. I also found this piece of an article, here is the link to the full article. http://www.gotquestions.org/John-3-13.html
I agree that only Jesus has the true authority of speaking of things in heaven.
John 3:13 “And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.”
No man, therefore, can speak of heavenly things as authoritatively as Jesus. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them and demands that they have been seen and experienced as only Jesus has. As no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of these things but He who came down from heaven. Jesus was saying that He alone was the one who had seen the Father, and He alone was qualified to declare God and make Him known (John 1:18).
No one had ascended and “returned,” in such a way as to be qualified to speak of the things there. “Ascending” carries the idea of going some place with authority. Jesus is the only one who has ever ascended to heaven with authority, since He is God’s only Son.
I was wondering, would we have been able to know all these things without the internet? You can not trust the Church or “Christian” bookstores to give the truth. The only way is to start really reading the Bible from start to finish and not let traditions or other people’s opinions influence you.
>> would we have been able to know all these things without the internet?
Nope, I don’t believe so. I believe God is using the internet mightily in these last days to spread the truth – of course the net is 98% evil but the amount of genuine gospel on the net is amazing. This is why in the USA they are now trying to CENSOR the internet.
Estelle, haven’t you heard Jesse Duplantis’ account of his trip to heaven? Quite detailed. And quite authentic I’m sure. Right. Authentic lies of demonic spirits in Jesse’s head.
This little boy is headed for a lifetime of trouble and this is a real tragedy.
I agree with both Lizelle and Debs, the internet is powerful but must be used with great discernment. Just like the book review of “Heaven is for real”, if one does not know the Bible (and I mean simple foundational truths), then one can easily believe these stories/fables. Got mail from CUM and these books “90 minutes in heaven” + HIFR are on SALE!!! Will be passing on some of the reviews on these 2 books to family and friends who might be buying into this decpetion. Ai toggie
I’m not that in to books or tv :), so haven’t even heard this Jesse guy preach.
I read one of his articles a while back, saying something that Jesus wanted a “new” donkey to sit and ride on, in so justifying that he can get a car that no one else has sit on (a very very expensive one) :).
I wouldn’t believe a word he says…
Estelle, Polly was being sarcastic about ole’ Cajun Jesse who has a TV program on the “christian” TV. He, like his colleagues are deluded and deceived.
Thanks for the insightful view..Saves me a read…Blessings Darrell
[deleted – No I have not been in heaven so I can’t answer your silly silly question]
I was wondering what bible you suggest reading. I see that you and others were saying that the King James version is the one that you read, but I feel like I would have a hard time understanding what it is truly saying and I really want to learn the TRUTH as much as I can. I have been a christian all my life in the protestant faith, but have fallen away from it for many years and I am trying to get back to my faith. Its hard now a days to know who to believe, if you can trust the churches, books, bibles. Its all very scary to me and I just want the truth. Can you please help me in any way? I would really appreciate it. Thanks
[EDITED by DTW: Please read here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/08/13/what-is-kjv-only/%5D
You people don’t seem to have much knowledge in the prophetic and what it’s like to receive visions which are personal and symbolic in nature from the Lord to the vessel HE chooses. Stop being so legalistic and stop putting God in your man-made box. God can do anything HE wants and speak anyway HE wants to ANYBODY! You are being judgmental instead of knowledgeable and prideful instead of humble. It is YOU who are under the lies of the devil and your lack of knowledge and petty words will bring a church down. STOP IT! For the one who wrote this useless article, How can you compare a vision today with what Paul had? Are you so ignorant? Why don’t you throw your cars in the dump because they are not in the bible either? Do you get it yet? If not you should really ask the Lord to reveal the prophetic to you you rather than trashing people on the internet. Shame on you all for dividing the church and slandering God’s chosen. The Lord isn’t sleeping and will not be mocked!
The exposes above are excellent. They are logical and–above all–totally biblical. You are doing the Church a great service by these exposes. It is so encouraging to read them in this apostate age. You can search for a decent church to find most of them full of believers steeped in all this non-biblical (and even anti-biblical) bunkum. I have met church members who have been appalled at the challenging of this nonsense. Some have even been angry at my daring to as much as question such “godly leaders” such as Jessie DuPlantis, Copeland, Hinn and the like.
I know people who actually believe they are biblically sound though they fall for this stuff! One lady I know who is a delightful believer made it plain to me that she didn’t even want to hear anything I had to say about Billy Graham. (Please check out Cathy Burn’s book “Billy Graham and His Friends” [I have reviewed it on Amazon] if you want to know Graham’s associations and present day beliefs.) This dear lady’s mind was already made up. It reminded me of the attitudes of many of the friends we made when my wife and I were members of the Armstong Cult. It was tantamout to blasphemy for many of them if you criticized Armstrong in any way. It was as if you’d spoken against the Lord Himself.
The real problem we have to deal with is the esteem in which these apostates and deceivers are held by their followers. They are unwitting placing mere humans above God. Whatever we put above God becomes our god. So such deceived people are actually idolaters.
You are doing an great work to help them. I just hope many such folk find this site and truly heed it. God bless.
One of the very worst parts of the book is the direct attack on the resurrection. Colton asked his father where Pop-Pop was buried and he told him in Kansas City. Then, in the following chapter, Colton tells his dad that Pop-Pop has a new body. Impossible nonsense, unless his grave in Kansas city is now broken up and the coffin emptied of its bones, meaning everyone else of us has missed it. Paul calls teachings that the resurrection has past gangrene. That’s about what this book amounts to.
I emailed Todd Burpo asking him about this last July (not wanting to get into everything else in the book). Of course, no response.
I have been wanting to read this book for over a year, I had heard from everyone that it was a great book. It took about two pages for me realize that this book was obviously fictional. The story teller uses so many descriptive words that are clearly meant to put an image in your head of the story playing out. This book is proof of the idol worship going on in the church today, of how an “image” of God is created rather than making an effort to seek the Truth. It is frustrating that this book will influence so many people.
THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT IS BEING LEFT OUT FROM ALL OF THIS IS THAT COLTON IS A CHILD, THE WAY THINGS ARE EXPLAINED AND SAID BY A CHILD ARE DIFFERENT FROM AN ADULT. CHILDREN SAY IT HOW THEY SEE IT WITHOUT TRYING TO BE SPECIFIC, EXAGERATTED OR DETAILED IN ANY WAY. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SPOKEN DIFFERENTLY OUTSIDE “BIBLE CONTEXT” DOES NOT MAKE IT FALSE. SORRY BUT A 4 YEAR OLD IS NOT GOING TO SPEAK IN KING JAMES VERSION LANGUAGE. SOME PEOPLE JUST TAKE THINGS WAY OUT OF CONTEXT AND OVER ANALYZE MISSING THE REAL MESSAGE. THERES A VERSE IN THE BIBLE IM NOT SURE WHERE IT MIGHT BE CORINTHIANS (SORRY IM NOT SPECIFIC) WHERE IT STATES THAT IN THE END OF DAYS YOUNG PEOPLE WILL HAVE DREAMS CHILDREN WILL HAVE VISIONS AND SO ON… SOMEWHERE ALONG THOSE LINES AND ALSO IT IS TRUE IF WE DONT BECOME LIKE CHILDREN AND STOP OVER ANALYZING JESUS WE MAY NEVER ENTER HEAVEN, WE ARE MISSING THE BIG PICTURE BECAUSE WE ARE TO BUSY CRITIZING THE COLOR DETAIL! GET IT! ENJOY JESUS, GET STARTED ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM NOT A CAREER OUT OF HIS WORD TO SLAM OTHERS WHICH IM SURE HE DID NOT WANT. ANOTHER THING THE BIBLE MENTIONS WHAT GOOD IS KNOWLEDGE IF IS BEING MISUSED OR NOT USED AT ALL. kNOWLEDGE WONT GET YOU TO HEAVEN….
>> THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT IS BEING LEFT OUT FROM ALL OF THIS IS THAT COLTON IS A CHILD, THE WAY THINGS ARE EXPLAINED AND SAID BY A CHILD ARE DIFFERENT FROM AN ADULT. CHILDREN SAY IT HOW THEY SEE IT WITHOUT TRYING TO BE SPECIFIC, EXAGERATTED OR DETAILED IN ANY WAY. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SPOKEN DIFFERENTLY OUTSIDE “BIBLE CONTEXT” DOES NOT MAKE IT FALSE.
Of course it makes it FALSE, my goodness what planet do you hail from? The one where children can’t be used by Satan??
The CATCH is that Satan is using a CHILD to catch people like you into thinking that a child could not be used by Satan to serve his own purposes.
Thanks Martin, I too hope that many people find this site, read it and it SINKS IN because the Holy Spirit is speaking to them, warning them to get out of the nonsense they are involved in.
>> You people don’t seem to have much knowledge in the prophetic
You are right, we don’t follow after satanic prophetic utterances and visions like you do.
“We watch them on TBN, Daystar, GOD TV, u name it, shocking most of the times to hear what is being preached as truth”
yeah, totally! Preaching religion and bible as truth is shocking not only for you. Praise be His Noodliness, Ramen!
Comment moved from here: 10 Kingdoms – The Abolition of Sovereignty
From Betty Harmon
Hi Deborah and I’d like to comment on the book Heaven Is For Real. I hate to comment on this but I really don’t accept all of this story. I just had a bad negative feeling about some of the interviews that I saw. Something didn’t add up and I really couldn’t put my finger on it – just a bad feeling. Now on the other hand, the book 90 Minutes In Heaven, I really believe that Don Piper had an experience that is worth sharing with the world. He is just too REAL for me. Sometimes in life all that we have is our gut feeling when all is said and done.
I just your site and LOVE IT! We saved a baby mourning dove in our backyard last June and we never dreamed how loving a bird could be such a blessing. She pretty much rules this place of ours along with our 2 cats. I love your BIRD and what a neat site!! I can’t wait to read more…..
B. Harmon from Abilene, Texas here and we’ll get back with you later!!!
Keep lifting people up – GOD BLESS US!
Just a note, we don’t go by our feelings or emotions as to what is real and what is not, we go according to what the Word of God says. You believe Don Piper had a heaven experience, where the Word of God tells us he most definitely didn’t and the proof is in the pudding based on what doctrine he follows, he follows the New Order of the Latter Rain. Read in my article what Don Piper says about Heaven is for Real. He says it’s a legitimate book, so much so that we should follow this child’s message (instead of Jesus Christ). Now we have a problem here, either you or he is wrong. If Don Piper had a legitimate experience in heaven don’t you think he would be promoting biblical books and not unbiblical ones?
Jesus does not leave His children in the lurch to fend for themselves when trying to find the truth, no no, He gave us The Holy Spirit who is out helper, counselor, and will always guide us and lead us into ALL TRUTH. (John 16:12) So if Don is now promoting a book of lies, where is the Holy Spirit in his life?
God gave us a brain to use Betty, and I say this to everyone, including myself sometimes. We gotta use it, think a little. lol.
Just another website filled with people who hate anyone who doesn’t believe exactly like they do. I don’t believe in compromising the truth in the name of tolerance, but try teaching the truth instead of teaching what is wrong with everyone else. You come acrossed as hateful and not very God like. You don’t eminate God’s love and peace.
No you come across as hateful. And yes you are COMPROMISING THE TRUTH – stop lying.
Is it possible to place a header of discussion topic with the comment in the side panel?
I know what you mean, and I have thought of that one myself… but alas not yet. There is no space to put an entire Article heading. BUT What you can do is move your mouse over the blue DATE and TIME at the end of each comment and a little popup will tell you what TOPIC the comment falls under. 🙂
I cannot listen to Burpo testimony something about it makes me cringe. It could be their surname for a start.Awful-
John 4 21 Jesus declard “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth”
If these books are so devilish how come it warns people not to go to hell and to repent of their sins. What do you really want to say about his sister and grandfather he saw, which remember he did not knew about? Was it two demons acting as his sister and grandfather – really???! We are not Catholics but born again God fearing people and we also believe in sin confession and restitution and it is the best thing any Christian can do regularly to get that pure heart we all need to enter Heaven. I my be wrong but you just sound so much like a Jehova Witness or Seven day Adventis or one of those other dead churches type of person that all sinners wants to flee from before they ever will desire to become like you!
I don’t agree. God is doing supernatural things in our time. Be careful to not miss God working, because you think you see satan everywhere. We have to be careful of deception, but not to the point that the pharisees went. Their knowledge puffed them up to the stage where they saw Jesus, but told him that He was doing miracles through satan’s power. I know the Bible and I love reading it and praying to God, but I also know someone who has been taken to heaven by God and I believe that person’s testimony. God can and will do whatever He wants.
I find that a lot of what your claiming doesn’t make much sense. Please note that this is my opinion, I don’t claim to know everything about the Bible or God’s ways. You should also admit that, unless you are guilty of pride.
Whether or not this kid did visit Heaven, I don’t see how it can be satanic like you are so quick to claim. If something isn’t clearly explained in the Bible do you automatically claim it to be satanic? If so, many things would be satanic. I don’t see any mention of websites in the bible, does that make your site satanic?
A story like this could point many people to the true gospel. The boys babysitter had her faith renewed because of his story of her little sister. And you say that is satanic. How and why would Satan do anything that would potentially lead even one person to faith in Jesus Christ? That is outside of his nature.
I think a site like this could be much more damaging to people’s faith than anything you write against. What if someone believed this boys story, and was led to Christ and became born again. They then come to your site and read your article in which you attack the thing that led them to faith. They could end up seeing it was all nonsense and throw away their faith. Sure, they may have had weak faith, but you led them away. How would you feel if that happened? You constantly point a finger and attack in a seemingly unloving manner. Divisions and disagreements like this are what has torn the church apart. Yes, the Bible tells us to rebuke and correct, but carefully out of respect.
Also, I can not find any scriptural evidence for a pre-trib rapture.
Read 2 Thess 2:1-3 “..with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (the rapture), let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.”
Acts 24:15 “There shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked together”
Rev 20:4 “And I saw the souls of those who had been be-headed because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the Word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his marks on their foreheads or their hands.”
It is clear from scripture that believers will remain on earth through the great tribulation. At the end, those who are dead will rise and those alive will have changed bodies and meet in the sky with Jesus. Together with Jesus they will rid the world of evil and the New Jerusalem will be established.
Continue to read and study His word and you will learn more and more everyday
The Holy Spirt said, “No, it’s a lie.” When I saw this book on the shelf. I’ve never read it and I won’t. I hope and pray people start asking God questions and listening to His answers. Why do so many people write books about what the Bible says? I see people reading new book after new book after new book but they never read the Bible. I know why, distraction. Satan works hard to keep people as far away from the Way the Truth and the Life as he can. Oh, Jesus please come soon and throw this fool into prison.
I find that a lot of what your claiming doesn’t make much sense. Please note that this is my opinion, I don’t claim to know everything about the Bible or God’s ways. You should also admit that, unless you are guilty of pride.
>> You don’t understand the bible? Why not Tim? It is not pride to admit one knows scripture because one is being taught and guided by the Holy Spirit! All Christians should know the scriptures Tim! God commands us to show ourselves approved. 2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. And I am not ashamed Tim. You are trying to uses satanic tactics against me that it is prideful to know the Bible. Shame on you.
Whether or not this kid did visit Heaven, I don’t see how it can be satanic like you are so quick to claim. If something isn’t clearly explained in the Bible do you automatically claim it to be satanic? If so, many things would be satanic. I don’t see any mention of websites in the bible, does that make your site satanic?
>> The bible tells us to TEST the Spirits (1 John 4:1-6) if it can’t be backed up by scripture and it’s of a spiritual nature then yes Tim, it’s not of God, and if it’s not of God then it’s Satanic.
A story like this could point many people to the true gospel. The boys babysitter had her faith renewed because of his story of her little sister. And you say that is satanic. How and why would Satan do anything that would potentially lead even one person to faith in Jesus Christ? That is outside of his nature.
>> No Tim, the BIBLE points people to the True Gospel. End of Story.
I think a site like this could be much more damaging to people’s faith than anything you write against.
>> No Tim, my site helps people stay away from unbiblical books like this and tells them to read their BIBLE INSTEAD.
What if someone believed this boys story, and was led to Christ and became born again. They then come to your site and read your article in which you attack the thing that led them to faith. They could end up seeing it was all nonsense and throw away their faith. Sure, they may have had weak faith, but you led them away. How would you feel if that happened? You constantly point a finger and attack in a seemingly unloving manner. Divisions and disagreements like this are what has torn the church apart. Yes, the Bible tells us to rebuke and correct, but carefully out of respect.
>> No Tim, because the Jesus in this story is not the Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God in the Bible. As you can see above in the article the Jesus the boy saw is a New Age Jesus.
Also, I can not find any scriptural evidence for a pre-trib rapture.
Read 2 Thess 2:1-3 “..with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (the rapture), let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.”
Acts 24:15 “There shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked together”
Rev 20:4 “And I saw the souls of those who had been be-headed because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the Word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his marks on their foreheads or their hands.”
It is clear from scripture that believers will remain on earth through the great tribulation. At the end, those who are dead will rise and those alive will have changed bodies and meet in the sky with Jesus. Together with Jesus they will rid the world of evil and the New Jerusalem will be established.
>> Tim, if you can’t spot that this book is false, after all the PROOF I PROVIDED, I seriously doubt you will be looking for Jesus Christ, The Blessed Hope, that we the church are to escape God’s WRATH during the tribulation. Luke 21:36
>>Secondly how can you tell me that there wont be a rapture – as you have already stated from the very beginning that you do not know the bible.
Continue to read and study His word and you will learn more and more everyday
>> I think you should start.
So you DON’T AGREE with the Bible is that what you are saying?
Thanks for the review of this book. I read it, and the whole time I was reading it I knew something was “off.” The same with “90 Minutes in Heaven.” So many Christian friends hail these books, and similar ones, and Joyce Meyer, and … oh, it’s so overwhelming and discouraging sometimes. We are all at such a great risk of falling if we don’t know the truth, what’s in the Bible. I’m always the first to doubt myself, and think that I must be the one in the wrong, because after all, “who am I?”. But it’s nice to find support here, and encouragement in my beliefs… Thank you.
P.S. I also read “The Shack.” Told myself it was just “entertainment” but felt kinda sick about even giving it the time of day. I’ve gotta stop doing that!
…. and I hope Todd Burpo and family read this whole blog about their book. Wouldn’t that be interesting for them. Maybe eye-opening even.
I hope so too, that would be fantastic.
This book is meant to be a $moneymaker$, and also to lure souls into the New Age soon-coming one world religion. The most abominable part is that a “pastor” is using his own son as the BAIT! People for the most part do NOT want to believe the truth. They want to believe the lie, and 2Thessalonians 2:2-7 shows us that these same “lie believers” will be sealed up under the strong delusion that God sends to such as these because they rejected His Son, Jesus Christ, Who IS The Truth, The Way, and The Life.
Right now, every human being has a short window of opportunity to make their choice: Love The Truth, Jesus Christ, or believe the lie. All we who love Jesus Christ and His Word are just watching a small “preview” of what will come after the rapture. The vast majority of humanity will gobble this garbage up and follow after the Whore, Mystery, Babylon. It is what it is.
As for me and my house, we have thrown out all the “books”, “teaching tapes”, etc…and stick with The Word of God, asking His Holy Spirit to lead us only into His Truth. Do not expect the eyes of the deceived, like the Burpos, to be opened, because they have deliberately chosen their path of deception. But please DO keep warning true Christians to STAY AWAY from garbage like this! Thank you Deb for the “Heads up”, and the discerning in Christ Jesus will heed it.
Sherry, you are absolutely right. There are many “pastors” who are misleading their flocks or are remaining silent and not alerting them to the dangers of the day, the traps and snares that are all around, even in the so-called “Christian” bookstores. They are not a ministry, they are a business. They carry merchandise and that merchandise has to please the eyes of the readers, not challenge them to live a sacrificial life for Christ.
The Shack, The Harbinger, The Message, The Chronicles of Narnia, it goes on and on.
My rule of thumb is that the author or expositor has to be home in heaven before I consider their works. They are what they were and there are many treasures out there just waiting to be found. But one has to search for them.
My favorites are H.A. Ironside and Clarence Larkin who believed with all their hearts in the Blessed Hope. I have been inspired by their commentaries as a companion to my Bible. Ironside has a couple of little devotional books that are just chock full of gems. I do not elevate them to pedestals, but I do believe they were Spirit-led and that the Lord intended for their works to help us in our Christian walk.
In case you are interested, I put the link here because it is rather difficult to find.
Their prices are quite reasonable for hardcover books.
Thank you, Redeemed! H.A, Ironside is on my “Good” list, because he was a true Christian, and he relied on God’s Holy Word and His Holy Spirit! I will check out the link.
The reason I’m so cautious is because the very first pastor I sat under, who is famous, and I will not name here, was wonderful for most of the years of his life. A few weeks ago, I went to the website of all his sermons, and was reading his commentary on the book of Revelation, which he gave in 1990. When he started quoting C.S. Lewis, and then talked about some New Age theoried in regard to time, dimensions, and space- I almost threw up! He passed away in 1992, and while I had moved away from the church geographically in 1977, I always had this wonderful regard for his preaching. I pray he was sufferring dementia, and had not turned from the true faith. Now I am HYPER vigilant as a Berean, and when I spot “garbage”, I call it out for what it is.
He obviously started allowing leaven with quoting that counterfeit christian, C.S. Lewis, so revered by a huge % of the Christian populace. And his children’s books that are filled with the occult and disgusting symbolism. Calling Aslon the lion a type of Christ! Blasphemous!!!
I think I might know the person you are speaking of, maybe A.R.? If that is the case, I think his programs are still airing on TBN.
We have to be SO careful not to elevate any human above scrutiny, don’t we? And we can never let down our guard. Even with my favorite “dead guys” I lean upon the Holy Spirit and if my Spirit does not bear witness, that is a red flag.
Thank you for your comments – and your exhortations. Much appreciated!
When I was first told about this book by someone who had bought it as true, and was told some of the details, I immediately knew that it was all a lie. The reason I concluded this was based, at that time, on only one fact: God forbids contact with the dead. It is therefore impossible that God Himself would bring anyone, including a little boy, into contact with the dead. The ridiculous details of that contact are simply verification of this lie. Personally, I believe the boy had some kind of experience. But then I believe that the father realized it could be a money maker. I suppose everyone realizes that there is going to be a follow-up expanded book, a study guide, and now, a MOVIE. Right. I’m sure that all of this glorifies God.
I know what you mean, David. It screams “false” to any biblically literate person.
Some pseudo-Christian writers are a lot more subtle, though. They are really good (from a negative side) at blending Scripture with falsehood. Then we have to really think hard and start seriously comparing Scripture with what’s been written. If Christians fall for this blatant money-spinner, I worry for them when it comes to the subtle stuff.
I myself fell for “The Prayer of Jabez,” simply because Jabez’s prayer is in the Bible.
Some of C.S. Lewis’ stuff is pretty impressive too because he was also a great logician and, I’m fairly certain, a genuine person.
In the past, I didn’t bother too much with his fantasy as I felt it was being used for satirical reasons–like Swift’s “Gulliver’s Travels”–so not meant to be taken literally. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” is exceptional in its imagery and symbolism. And, I have to admit, he made some excellent points with the symbolism. I accepted that the view of hell in the book was not meant to be taken literally. He shows that by ending on the fact that it was all a dream.
But I’ve had to re-evaluate Lewis’ writings too. It all comes back to 1 Thess 5:21 and 1 John 4:1. We must always be on our guard. We are not immune from deception.
I avoid C.S Lewis, as he was basically a catholic man. Catholics have nothing to teach me on spiritual matters.
I have had my speculations about the book, but I would also be very careful how you tread. Up until a little while ago, we were interpreting Revelations very wrong, and to this day I still dont think we have it totally right. Look how and elderly John described things he saw in heaven, very weird and funky.
I think you also have to watch bring your own Calvinistic theology into the discussion ie.”What would happen if either Todd or Sonja were to reject the Gospel? Would the little sister’s hope be crushed?” So correct if I am wrong but by what you wrote,you believe that people can lose there salvation. Whereas I believe that if Todd and Sonja reject the gospel it is because they never accepted it in the first place and there belief and faith is a lie based on works, not in Christ Jesus.
1) I am not Calvinistic.
2) >> What would happen if either Todd or Sonja were to reject the Gospel? Would the little sister’s hope be crushed?” So correct if I am wrong but by what you wrote,you believe that people can lose there salvation.
No, if they reject the gospel they were never saved to start with. They have a form of godliness but deny God’s power. They have a lot of knowledge but never arrive at the truth.
2 Timothy 3:5-7
5 They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power. So avoid people like these.
6 For some of these insinuate themselves into households and captivate weak women who are overwhelmed with sins and led along by various passions.
7 Such women are always seeking instruction, yet never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
If you are GENUINELY saved, you can’t lose your salvation, because you are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,
This is different to Calvinists who believe you are chosen (before birth) – theirs should read ‘once chosen always chosen’.
Derek, how in the world could you ever come to the conclusion that Deborah is Calvinist?
And be careful how one treads when exposing lies of Satan? And comparing a book of the Bible and John the Revelator to a book written by a human who has been deceived by Satan to believe in necromancy?
I know that Sata is the great deceiver. Since much of what Deborah cites as unbiblical based on many of Colton’s descriptions not being found in scripture, can some one provide specific Biblical reference(s) that Satan will take little boys through an experience as a method of spreading his deception? Seems that specifics should go both ways in proving or disproving an event.
No, it does not work both ways. The Bible does warn you about these things…
2 Corinthians 11:14
14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.
2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience,
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, you must not learn the abhorrent practices of those nations. 10 There must never be found among you anyone who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, anyone who practices divination, an omen reader, a soothsayer, a sorcerer, 11 one who casts spells, one who conjures up spirits, a practitioner of the occult, or a necromancer. 12 Whoever does these things is abhorrent to the LORD and because of these detestable things the LORD your God is about to drive them out from before you.
WOW, I don’t even know where to start. So I’ll start here: Mark 9:42, Matthew 18:6, Luke 17:2. So what you’re saying is that GOD granted satan access to a sweet innocent little 3 year old boy on his deathbed, so that satan could cause this little boy to stumble, not knowing whether the boy would survive or not to spread this false gospel. Then GOD, to further the stumbling of this little boy miraculously healed him, so that the “false” gospel could be spread to hundreds of thousands-if not millions-of people who could be led astray by this little boy. You are saying that GOD himself allowed satan to bring this boy to some sort of false heaven and teach him error or give him some sort of hallucination. Is satan even capable of this? I know he’s a powerful being and can present himself as an angel of light, but can he do what you’re claiming he can do??? Scriptures to back this up!?!? You then make ridiculous leaps by saying that there is no chair mentioned for Jesus to be seated in, that it’s just symbolic of the finished work of Christ, and that there is no mention of an actual seat.. REALLY???!!! This would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. The words trinity and rapture are also not in the bible. You also make a leap by suggesting that the father of this little boy has somehow given up faith in Jesus and the bible because he wanted to be the student, not the teacher, as far as learning what his little boy had to say about heaven without asking him leading questions or persuading him to say what he wanted to hear. That he was now a follower of his own son. Again another ridiculous leap. Also because he says Mary still loves Jesus like a mother, that this is some sort of roman catholic perversion or idolatry, she carried HIM for 9 months and then raised him, I’m sure she still has some “motherly” love for HIM. This means he’s preaching Babylon?? REALLY!?!? This “false” gospel includes having to have Jesus in your heart to get to heaven and that satan loses the battle in the end. YEAH I’m sure THAT’S what satan wants the world to hear!!! You hand-wringing legalists spend so much time trying to accuse “others” of sin and angering GOD. You are not the sole decider of right and wrong, especially when you accuse GOD of joining a GOD/satan tag-team against a sweet innocent little boy. You’re also a hypocrite abot Christmas, you don’t put up a tree but you exchange gifts because it’s expected of you and you don’t mind receiving presents either. You don’t prepare food for the day??? What is BBQ?? Oh you say, you treat it like any other holiday. So is it a holiday (holy day)or is it evil paganism??? You have figured out the exact amount of “participation” that is acceptable to GOD?! Was this revealed to you by GOD when you were taken up to heaven??? I didn’t think so! Oh and you totally grasp at straws, very tiny, very slippery ones when you say that Paul said you can’t repeat what you saw in heaven, he said there were things you couldn’t utter, he didn’t say you couldn’t say “ANYTHING” about what you saw. Paul meant he was the last one to see heaven “so far”. John saw heaven AFTER Paul saw it, so is John a LIAR??? Maybe this little boy hasn’t uttered the things he wasn’t supposed to, can you prove he did? You accuse GOD of conspiring with satan to facilitate the stumbling of a little boy that he loves, but the problem isn’t your ridiculously over-zealous legalism, the problem is a 3 year old boy who nearly died!!! Get a life!
>> WOW, I don’t even know where to start. Mark 9:42, Matthew 18:6, Luke 17:2 So what you’re saying is that GOD granted satan access to a sweet innocent little 3 year old boy on his deathbed, so that satan could cause this little boy to stumble, not knowing whether the boy would survive or not to spread this false gospel.
WOW, where do I start…
1) God did not GRANT ACCESS to Satan to an innocent child.
2) Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers?
(Exodus 20:5) – “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,”
(Deuteronomy 5:9) – “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,”
(Exodus 34:6-7) – “Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”
(1 Cor. 15:22) – “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.”
By your reasoning ALL children of pagan religions will go to heaven!
I DISAGREE IF YOU ARE CHRISTIAN AND BELIEVE IN GOD YOU WILL BELIEVE THIS!!!!
Unknown… believe what?
I HAVE JUST SUBSCRIBED TO THIS WEBSITE WITHOUT HAVING READ ALL THE BLOGS AND COMING ACROSS THIS EVIL BLOGGING BY DEBORAH HAS TURNED ME OFF JOINING THIS SITE. YOU ARE A PRIDEFULL PERSON DEBORAH AND JUST HOW DO YOU ARRIVE AT THE CONCLUSION THAT GOD IS NOT DOING WHAT THIS LITTLE BOY HAS TOLD PEOPLE???????? YOU HAD BETTER BE VERY VERY CAREFUL ABOUT WHOM YOU CRITIZE BECAUSE YOU HAVE JUST CRITIZED GOD’S WORKINGS. I HAVE READ MANY BOOKS DATING BACK TO THE 18TH CENTURY OF FOLK WHO HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO HEAVEN AND TO HELL AND I WOULDN’T HAVE THE AUDACITY TO CRITIZE SOMETHING THAT COULD BE THE TRUTH. IN FACT I DO BELIEVE EVERYONE THAT TELLS ME THEY SAW JESUS AND HEAVEN OR THEY SAW HELL BECAUSE I HAVE NO PROOF THAT THEY DIDN’T. I DARE YOU PRINT THIS.
—> LOL <--- right at ja!
I have also read books dating back two and three centuries. One said the earth was flat, the other said we evolved from a cosmic burp 4.5 billion years ago.
The bible refutes and proves both to be wrong so I am sticking with It.
One more thing. Ignorance is not going to be an excuse when the Lord comes.
A wise guy once said “ignorance means – dumb on purpose”
MaryJaney, I recommend that you take out your Bible and read it and put down all the other books you have been reading.
The Bible gives no evidence for people taking trips to heaven for special revelation EXCEPT for John the Revelator who was led by the Holy Spirit and ordained by God to do so.
In fact, the Bible warns about following false prophets and false spirits who are demonic.
My dear, you are the one who should be careful.
[Deleted – If you dare me to approve a comment I will delete it, secondly I don’t approve such blatant false teaching such as yours]
Whew! Hell hath no fury like a deceived & gullible woman! Good grief Mary Janey. First of all you come to a site and because you don’t agree with truth you attack Deborah.
Second of all is this how you are to treat either a younger or old woman? Let’s see what Paul told Timothy: 1Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 1Timothy 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. Your “tone” didn’t have much purity. Third of all, it’s ok to disagree but let’s do it a touch towards being “Christ-like.” Fourth of all you say you believe anyone who tell you that they have seen Jesus Christ? Now your ignorance of the Scripture is showing. Fifth of all you credit God for giving this little boy this vision. Do you not understand just how evil satan is. HE is using this little boy’s story to deceive the gullible and thereby drag them down to hell.
You should thank God for a site like this that exposes the “unfruitful works of darkness.” That’s in scripture in case you didn’t know. Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Ephesians 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Your are not “trying the spirits” and have set yourself up to be further deceived. I said further because you are already somewhat deceived. 1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
If you are strong enough to handle the Truth then I’m sure Deborah would love for you to stay here. But you’re not strong enough of a Christian to handle the truth yet.
No, I do not know Deborah. She is in the African Continent. I am an American, so there is no way we’ve met.
oops I sure misspelled a couple of words. Oh well, I’m an American and we know all Americans are dumb.
Maybe someone already said this so if they did sorry. The scars in the wrists (a part of the hand) and the scar in his side are the only “Man Made” things in heaven.
LOL, I fixed some of dem spelling errors before I read this comment ;P
Blessings upon you oh Deborah. You will receive the “Spelling-Bee” star on your Crown in heaven! :o)
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
It’s time for a great old hymn. I love when we sing this at church. It is an oldie but a goodie. Enjoy these words. Let them speak to you.
Grace Greater Than Our Sin
Marvelous grace of our loving Lord,
Grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt!
Yonder on Calvary’s mount outpoured,
There where the blood of the Lamb was spilled.
Grace, grace, God’s grace,
Grace that will pardon and cleanse within;
Grace, grace, God’s grace,
Grace that is greater than all our sin.
Sin and despair, like the sea waves cold,
Threaten the soul with infinite loss;
Grace that is greater, yes, grace untold,
Points to the refuge, the mighty cross.
Dark is the stain that we cannot hide.
What can avail to wash it away?
Look! There is flowing a crimson tide,
Brighter than snow you may be today.
Marvelous, infinite, matchless grace,
Freely bestowed on all who believe!
You that are longing to see His face,
Will you this moment His grace receive?
Sharon, oh yes, there was substance to the oldies like this, unlike the mindless repetition and mantra-like offerings of today’s worship. So many of the new songs are self-focused and not really worship. And some of the lyrics are just inane such as one of the popular ones that goes like this:
God’s love is like a hurricane and I am a tree –
Right – God’s love is destructive? Blaspheous emergent garbage!! This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread except that it makes as much sense as the book in question.
End of rant.
I agree with you so “Rant On” :o) I’m very careful about the music I listen to. Occasionally I sing a solo at church. I am very, very careful about the music I sing. If it doesn’t have Jesus in it, it is not for me. We have a little, very little choir at my church. We’re just everyday folks that love Jesus Christ. I am so blessed to have my little church. My Pastor is wonderful. He loves the King. He always refers to Jesus as The King.
Pastor says, “Never judge a church by it’s size or you might miss a great move of Almighty God in it’s midst.”
Time for a new song. Here we go:
My Hope is Built on Nothing Less”
by Edward Mote, 1797-1874
1. My Hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
2. When darkness veils His lovely face,
I rest on His unchanging grace;
In every high and stormy gale
My anchor holds within the veil.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
3. His oath, His covenant, and blood
Support me in the whelming flood;
When every earthly prop gives way,
He then is all my Hope and Stay.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
4. When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found,
Clothed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne!
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
They which have no HOPE are the poorest of all. (My comment)
1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Seeking who can devour. satan does not discriminate based on age, color, creed, or nationality. He is just looking for someone to eat up even if it is a little boy. Perhaps the deception was aimed more toward this little guy’s parents. But unless someone reaching this boy with the TRUE gospel he will grow up believing in what he saw. I don’t doubt that he saw what he says he saw. But I am sure that this was not of God. “Rainbow” horses. I think not.
So all of us must be vigilant in our walk with our Lord Jesus. satan may just want to devour YOU. Jesus told Peter Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
I am thanking God more and more for this site. While I do not know everyone that “The Debster” exposes to be a False Prophet, I enjoy reading her posts as she sticks the Sword of the Lord into the false teachers/wolves. Keep going “Debster” (kinda like the Terminator against false teachers.) ;O)
I just read these remarks and will now delete this site from my saved sites. All of the bible quotes were great.
We can dispute each other until Jesus returns, and what will that gain? I bid you Gods peace.
If the bible quotes were great why are you deleting this website from your saved sites? You contradict yourself. And you talk nonsense, this blog was never saved as one of your favorites; from the the moment you landed here you realised that this website preached the gospel of Jesus Christ and you can’t handle that.
The bible speaks the truth and only the truth. You are right now disagreeing with me… what will you gain from following after false teaching? eh? Clearly you don’t know whether you are coming or going.
… was that Rick… Warren or Joiner?
>> … was that Rick… Warren or Joiner?
LOL *giggles uncontrollably*
Cassandra, the KJV is written on the 7th grade level. Yes there are a few old words but there are online KJV dictionaries. Don’t be afraid of the KJV; it has stood the test of time. May 6,2011 was the 400th anniversary of the KJV. I personally believe that more souls have been won to Christ because of the reliability of the KJV. Satan hates it, and Rome absolutely hates it because it lays all of their false teaching completely open.
I am in the process of studying why I use the KJV. Perhaps I will post an article when I am done processing all of the articles I have. When King James commissioned that a new English Bible be made little did he know the far reaching fruit this Bible would be used. The translators were highly educated and like the King himself spoke fluent Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and others as well. These men believed that they were handling and translating the total “Word of God.” I’ve been made fun of for using the KJV and that is fine because the one who makes fun of any scriptural teaching doesn’t know what I know and I also want to know more. Get you a good KJV and here are some websites: But be careful there are wolves every where.
I hope I have helped you. Be at Peace, His peace.
Discerning Deborah, how deceptive of you to take scripture quotes out of context to blaspheme the Mother of God — e.g. Revelation 17:4-6 and Jeremiah 7:18. Why don’t you put in the whole content? Because it would not serve your evil purposes, that’s why. The references are not to the Blessed Mother, nor even to a woman — they are symbolic!! You are not as ‘smart’ as you think you are —- you’re a real ‘scumbag’ — you’re the real satan, spreading such falsehoods but claiming to be so knowledgeable about the bible —- Terrible, terrible writing and logic — PS why are you such a Catholic hater? Do you really know or understand the Catholic Church and its teachings? I doubt it.
Deborah — not so discerning — just saw this in the General description of your blog —
“If you don’t understand what it written please consult the Word of God (remembering to read it correctly, in context, with no twisting of scripture).”
Presumably your words!! Why don’t you practice what you preach? No twisting, in context?!!
George Garner wrote
No court of law will accept your accusation because you give no evidence of “twisting in context.”
Of what are Revelation 17:4-6 and Jeremiah 7:18 symbols?
Watch your language.
We do not hate Catholics. We love them and want them to be saved. That’s why we expose the dangers of Catholicism and try to warn them. Thank God, many ex-Catholics have had their eyes opened and are now saved.
I urge you to repent so that you may receive forgiveness and eternal life.
Thanks for calling me all those names. You show yourself to be something other than a Christian.
This is just hateful. This is a four year old trying to describe things that are almost impossible to describe even for an adult. So etimes you have to take things on faith. How dare anyone discount what this child has said he has seen. He saw things that he should or could not have seen. But facts were verified. You cannot shred and take apart things you have not seen or encountered. You have no idea what that child saw. Why wouldn’t a child be scared not knowing where he is and why couldn’t the angels sing for him to calm him. Moms sing to their children every day to calm them . Jesus say let the children come to him. God is about love and grace, I didn’t find that here.
What you should do, is to ask yourself, “Who am I going to obey and listen to?” Are you going to obey and listen to a kid who claims to have been and seen things in heaven or are you going to obey God and listen to his Word? What does his Word say?
Paul was not allowed to tell anyone what he had seen and heard in heaven. The only description of what heaven is like is given in the book of Revelation and we should abide by it lest we become boastful.
On the other hand, Deborah, you’ve assumed in Item 1 that just because one is seated in Jesus’ lap that they will not have fear. But look at Rev 17:17 “for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.” So even though they are in the presence of The Lamb, who leads them to the springs of the water of life, they STILL have tears in their eyes – no doubt resulting from what they’ve been through. So I can see how a boy moving from acute appendicitis to the lap of Jesus could still have fear. I think your first assumption is weak.
Please try and read all the scripture surrounding a verse to understand what is going on.
Their robes were washed in the blood of the Lamb
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
God is wiping the tears from they eyes, not because they are fearful of God, but because these people have come out of the tribulation and have suffered tremendously and God is lovingly wiping the tears from their eyes.
Jesus will not cause little children to cry in fear.
The god that will cause little children to cry in fear is satan.
Please try and read all the scripture surrounding a verse to understand what is going on.
Their robes were washed in the blood of the Lamb
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
God is wiping the tears from their eyes, not because they are fearful of God, but because these people have come out of the tribulation and have suffered tremendously and God is lovingly wiping the tears from their eyes.
Jesus does NOT cause anyone to fear and will not cause little children to cry.
It is amazing to read this person attempt to discredit the story of Colton Burpo.
One of the biggest problems is that the Bible itself has its own disclaimer stating that “everything that Jesus experienced” could not even be contained in all the books of the world… So how can this experience of a child???
But here is the bigger problem… God or Jesus are not limited by the “limited revelations” written in the Bible, period. But to say that the Eternal God is only bound by the limited written word is rather foolish to say the least. An example, the Bible talks about “birds” in a general sense in some passages. But, we all know there are many “species of birds.” Are we then suppose to debate the details of the feathers, beak, or sounds of the various birds and declare there is ONLY ONE BIRD of the Bible?
He is a detail the readers of this reply of mine should ponder…
I too had an out-of-body, near death experience and the “sash” that I saw Jesus wear was sky blue on top of an alabaster/cream colored thick robe(s)–with multiple layers, like drapery and with tassels too.
I have read every point in this response to the Book written by the Burpos and hate to admit that the person who wrote this condemnatory rebuttal and response may need to look at themselves and ask the same question(s) they are asking and proclaiming of that family alongside to saying that they too as it stands could confirm that their judged is “demonically influenced.”
If I told you and wrote about my own experience I had I could easily guarantee the author of this article about the Burpo’s would find something to judge and condemn me about too. Thankfully I had my own experience and can say there is “more to the reality of God” than what is captured still as truth in the Bible.
Finally in regards to “the wings” I think I need to share a detail and defend this innocent child from Nebraska. The “wings” he saw appears to be the light of God illuminating out in rays from each and every person who had the Spirit of God dwelling inside of them. If you recall in the Old Testament Moses when he came down from the mountain his face was illuminated and the Israelite people were terrified. They even had to cover his head. What about when Jesus was transfigured alongside to proclaiming to be equal to God…did the Apostles “light up too?” What about that “detail” not included in the Bible?
See my point?
I am sorry that the person who wrote this article had to “throw stones at a small child and family” calling them demonically influenced and all. Maybe the author is just acting out in jealously, ignorance, etc. because they did not take the “trip of their life” and would rather desire to throttle the expanded revelation of God that goes beyond the Bible regarding this particular subject.
Thankfully there is one simple message recorded in the Bible that does not need further explanation, squabbling and such. For it is clear and declares who Jesus is and how to be saved in that the Lord Jesus Christ clearly states that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that nobody goes to the Father but by Him.
“Thank you Jesus for this simple truth of salvation and please Lord Jesus forgive the author who wrote this rebuttal article for his sins of judgement of the Burpos. And like you said Lord, “Father, forgive them (him) for they (he) does not know what they (he) are/is doing” in the case of this author of this condemnatory article, what he is saying.
What you seem to forget is that the Bible is a closed Canon and that no one needs to experience an out of body trip to heaven and/or hell to expand or to fill in the gaps of the “limited revelations” in the Bible.
When the rich man in hell begged Abraham to send Lazarus (who was in Paradise with Abraham) to his brothers and warn them of the excruciating painful place of torment he was in, this is what Abraham said:
Everything pertaining to salvation and how to live a godly life are in the Bible. Why do you need a child to go to heaven to supposedly fill in the gaps of the “limited revelations” in the Bible?” The danger with out of body experiences and alleged trips to heaven and/or hell is that the person who experiences it is prone to adding or taking away from the Bible. What does the Bible say about this?
Is this what you want for the child and his parents?
I agree. So why do you need to have an out of body experience and supposedly go to heaven when the most important message is already in the Bible?
I appreciate you taking the moment to comment on my response to the article.
Firstly, I want to make clear that I am not “blogging” to make any point that does not reflect the truth and experiences as I know it. For some reason if I am in error or my response and assessment is not in line in what God would approve I quickly humble myself and repent and seek His forgiveness. I truly take this matters seriously.
Even reading your reply I see many opportunities and “potholes” I can continue to wrangle upon and wonder when this exchange would finally extinguish. Personally I do not blog EVER and this is the very first time I have commented about this subject in a public forum. Furthermore, this will be my final reply and response to you and will resign myself from this exchange for reason I have come to have unmistakeable truths and revelations and do not feel comfortable dialoguing about this.
You discuss a “closed Canon” and simply there is no such thing in the scriptures about this, period. Even the 66 Books of the Bible do not reflect the original Canon anyway and the Canon had more Books to begin with. Also, which Canon are you referring to? I can think of many groups who all have taken a stab at proclaiming “they have the right Canon.”
Actually if you see Romans Chapter One Paul the Apostle argues how God’s Truth is “naturally Canon” and convincingly evident when he uses God’s Creation as his argument and resource to make this interesting point.
So you know, the Council of Nicaea was made up on “carnal government officials” and their self-serving intentions went well beyond what many Believers in this day and age accept and believe. Constantine was far from being a “Christian” as we define a follow of Jesus Christ today and he Constantine had opportunities extended to others to “worship him as a deity.”
Now, does that sound Christian to you? And how can you trust someone like that anyway if he is behind what Books are Canon? Would you trust the IRS, President Obama, former President Clinton to tell you what Books of God’s Word is “Canon?” What about Russian President Putin? Would you trust him?
…When Jesus was handed the scroll of Isaiah to proclaim its fulfillment in Him as the ONE MESSIAH spoken of it was read from ONLY ONE SCROLL. They did not hand Him a “closed Canon” published book “someone said” was the “approved Word of God.” It does not say anything in the scriptures at all about which books represent the final assembly of books approved by God. And if we think about what I just wrote, according to Romans Chapter One Paul only talks about the evidence of God’s creation. So is “creation Canon” or part of this “closed Canon?” I think you see my point.
Speaking of Paul and now addressing why an addition message is being made through a kid from Nebraska when the Bible is supposed to have “all that we need”…
Think about this for a second…
Did not Paul “mention in passing and without a name” SOMEONE HE MET who had an out-of-body experience, whether in the body or out-of-the-body HE DID NOT KNOW? It appears Paul could not even remember the person’s name either or he was a nobody. I would read 2 Corinthians Chapter 12 to examine this more closely.
Thomas, I have read each paragraph and verse you authored and I would assess that there is much taken out of context and/or expanded and misapplied to support a point irrelevant to the original subject at hand and intended for the original reader a couple of thousand of years ago.
This strategy is rather risky and compromises, in my opinion, the original Word and intention of God. “Antidote verse application” can fall short of truly address real-time matters at hand and opens the door for self-service application of God’s words at will usurping one’s writing. In this case God’s message through the Apostles and Prophets of the Ancient Scrolls and Letters. (See how I omitted the word “Bible” here but talk about scrolls and letters?)
Why did God chose a little boy and/or me to experience what we did? Maybe it is the same questions some the Disciples asked themselves when Jesus only took three up the Mountain where He was transfigured and the others were left at the bottom of the hill, most likely in a shadowy valley paranoid of the Roman authorities. I guess they all must of felt “left out” and it could be many people are feeling the same way about this child and these supernatural stories. It is easy to see many getting offended, especially if they are religious, in the ministry and have “been faithful” during the years to their God and not even having an experience of anything out of this world other than a Blockbuster Movie rental filled with fantasy authored in Hollywood. Understandable, truly.
I use this as an example because on one occasion after I shared my story I was surprised by the envy and contention I encountered just because Jesus chose to reach out to me in the manner He did. My intention was to only share the Gospel and the reality of Jesus. The person was so jealous they have not spoken with me in sometime. Truly weird.
Remember, only God the Father and/or Jesus has the authority to take someone’s soul out of the body. Satan does not have that ability and others claiming the Devil does are giving him once again credit and power not due that wicked serpent. It is also weird when something supernatural happens it is always the devil than God.
I should not be surprised because when this did happen in the Gospels it was recorded as the UNPARDONABLE SIN.
Lastly, my experience confirmed a reality beyond this earth “more real” than me sitting, typing and communicating to you. Also, if you were standing in front of me I could actually see that the “reality of you” is faded and dying compared to the reality of living and being on my knees before the Savior Jesus Christ. Truly awesome and if you really believe in Him you are in for an amazing blessing and surprise!
Even the story of Colton or even my experience and testimony does not do any justice to the experiences that happened to us or can we even come close to reflecting and articulating something so very real, eternal, pure and Holy.
After I reentered my vacated carcass of mine laying on a bed after being gone and made aware in different ways that this was not a “freaky dream” I “turned back on” and struggled being “half on half off” and I am reminded of the scene of the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz getting his limbs filled with hay. I was truly in a malfunctioned state for a few minutes. Finally after my soul settled in the body I was uneasy about much, sought Pastoral advice and a Biblical understanding of what in the world just occurred. I could not even sleep well for about a week and was consumed constantly remembering over and over again those moments before Jesus Christ.
Here is another point I need to share…
If you knew the “Perfect Truth” of this experience and how it really is real you would completely understand that it is just that…real. You would also know that what is being shared by some, like even Paul the Apostle mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12, is so very true.
My prayer is that people be careful in their judgement when they hear these testimonies, protecting themselves from possibly “adding and subtracting” from God ordained supernatural events like this child Colton and people like me have experienced.
May God bless you and hopefully you are not a “doubting Thomas” after my reply to you!
Here is a great YouTube Channel on Near-Death Experiences, UFOs and more I would like to suggest and that I find rather interesting. Please see
Here is a great song from that channel too!
I like your pseudonym but it doesn’t seem to fit your view of the Bible.
First of all I said that the Bible as we have it now is sufficient. We don’t need anything more than what is written between Genesis and Revelation.
You are trying very hard to validate your opinion without any valid examples from Scripture. Jesus constantly quoted from the Old Testament, even so far back as Genesis which means that they already had the Old Testament when Jesus was handed the scroll from Isaiah.
He was referring to Genesis 2:24. Read this article from The Berean Call and this one here.
The Perfect Truth is, Perfect Truth, is that the person to whom Paul referred was NOT someone else but he himself. He deliberately did not mention his name because he did not want others to think he was boasting about his experience. Barnes explains it as follows:
Paul was not allowed to repeat the unspeakable words he heard in the third heaven. Today’s alleged travelers to heaven and back write books to tell everyone what they had seen and heard and most of the times they tell you things that don’t line up with the Word of God. Would you say that everything Colton allegedly experienced in heaven is in line with the Word of God? If not, then you should reject it outright.
Peter also had a similar experience when he saw Jesus with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. However, he did not boast about his experience but rather said:
Well, I must say this is a real eye opener because it shows me from whence you tap your knowledge and experience. I would advise you to rather stick to the Bible. It’s much safer. I cannot accept your experience as being the Perfect Truth. I must obey Jesus rather than man. He said: “Take heed that no man deceive you.” (Mat 24:4).
Concerning the Catholic church, I would suggest reading about the early church fathers. These are the men who were taught by the Apostles and carried on Christianity. They all professed the real presence of Jesus in the Breaking of the Bread. Then read John 6. Note that Jesus emphasizes the bread becomes His Body. He even ties in the Manna that gave life to Moses and the Israelites. Jn 6, 54. Also, note that Judas was one of the disciples who didn’t believe Him.
Roman Catholicism did not start with Jesus or the apostles. It started in Babylon and was perpetuated by the false Christian, Constantine the Great (who was a type of the Antichrist).
Yes, and I suppose Jesus held his own body and blood in his hands when he administered the Last Supper to his disciples in the Upper Room?
Wow….so much hate on here 🙁
If we (supposed Christians) spent as much time loving than judging people, more people would love God. So much hate…..
You are the one who is being judgmental. You are accusing us of hatred. Wouldn’t you say hatred is when you fail to warn people against false teachings and false prophets? Jesus said to Peter “If you love Me you will feed and look after my lambs and the sheep.” That means that he ought to warn them when wolves in sheep’s clothing came amongst them. That’s real love. Your kind of lover is a false love.
We are command to judge those who are IN the church and not OUTSIDE the church.
Im sorry to say that I will be “unliking” your facebook page. I whole heartely disagree with you and I pray that you will be filled with God’s love and truth. Peace be with you…..
Perhaps you should begin to read, understand and believe your Bible in stead of the stories of ppersons who allegedly went to heaven and back.
Looks like this string is ripe with followers of what I call the theology of hell and damnation. I guess it works somewhat, some come by fear and all that. But for me I love Jesus because I love Him, that simple; I can’t explain it, He does not ask for it, I am compelled because that is how He made me.
You can’t drag me or force me to love. You can’t threaten me with eternal torture for some minor transgression or a misinterpretation of scripture. Pastor’s who teach the theology of hell & damnation do so not because they want to lead you to heaven; they do that because they want to control you and your money by way of fear and intimidation.
The church’s desire to control has always been a problem. Here’s the real answer, love your Father completely, and second love everybody around you. Love is the foundation for all that is good. Hell is just self inflicted separation from God and the lock to this place is operated from the inside (CS Lewis quote).
Last thought, all that interdenominational bigotry is just ugly. Let it go, I mean really? You think that your particular denomination is an automatic pass to heaven and everybody else bakes in the lake?
If you really love Jesus as you say, you would have believed every word He says. Guess what? He says more on hell than on anything else. Have you always loved Him because He made you that way or was there a time in your life that you did not love Him?
SCARLETTE NESTOR wrote:
Whether a child or an adult, your duty is to test their sayings in the light of the Word of God and if it does not line up with the Bible, you must reject it outright.
To become like a little child does not mean you should believe everything they say. When Jesus said: “Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat 18:3) had nothing to do with what heaven looks like. The disciples were pondering who would be the greatest in heaven and Jesus was simply telling them that they should become as humble as a little child in order to inherit his kingdom. He did not mean that they should begin to think and talk like little children. Their conversation about who would be the greatest in heaven exposed their complete lack of humility. In fact, the Bible warns “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14). You seem to to love it when someone tosses you to and fro and to be carried about by every wind of doctrine. That’s got nothing to do about being childlike.
Acts 2:17 and 18 (Joel 2) was fulfilled at Pentecost and should not be seen as a template to justify a boy’s so-called experience in heaven. You are twisting Scripture.
To enjoy Jesus you must first make sure whether you believe in the right Jesus and not another one who supposedly wears purple in heaven.
Knowledge won’t get you to heaven? Really???
The word for “know” is “ginōskō” and means to have knowledge.
Get your facts straight before you slam others the way you did. Your argument is unfounded and fraught with emotional inconsistencies.
If I may just interject something. I am a pagan, just so you know. Yet it would appear that I know more of the Bible than you do, kind sir. I can point to passages in Ruth, Psalms and Malachi that refer to your god’s wings. Also your complaint about idolatry is pure hypocrisy. How many crosses are there in your church? *cough* hypocrite *cough*. I honestly think you’re just a hater who doesn’t know as much as he says he does. Also your view that Catholics aren’t true Christians is the most absurd accusation I’ve heard yet! Your Christ said that only one who works with the Holy spirit can cast out demons. Do you not know just how many exorcisms are performed by Catholic priests? I’m not going to continue trying to drill sense into your thick skull so in conclusion I say, ‘Goodbye, I hope you aren’t to wounded by the fact that a 15 year old just schooled you in your own religion.’
Sorry for saying ‘kind sir’ I only just now realized that this was posted by woman. My sincere apologies on that mistake.
You acknowledged that you are a pagan which proves that the Bible is correct when it says the following.
So what I would like to suggest is that you repent and believe the Gospel and receive Jesus Christ as your Saviour and only then will you be able to understand what the Bible teaches.
By the way, exorcism is no proof that a person is saved.
That’s nice of you. First you lambaste me and then you run away. Is that a natural thing with all you pagans – to run away? Remember, you cannot run away from God, my little friend of 15.
Apology accepted. To which part in the post or comments are you referring? Many said or alluded to the fact that Catholics are not saved because they espouse a false gospel. Some of these people are male and some female.
Just for the record some run, some don’t. Do I look like I’m running? I mean no offense to anyone. Although, I take offense to the arrogance in your comment, ‘My little friend of 15’. By the way, nice come back with the ‘Lord, Lord’ reference. My question to you is, how do you know you’re not one of those people?
I’m a bit confused here. Who posted the above article/review? I thought it said above the tags that the author was a person named Deborah. Sorry if I made another mistake there.
Trashy. Your tearing apart a “vision” that a young boy had. Who is anyone to say how/when/why Christ would appear to anyone, or how that situation would play out? Not to mention utilizing “scripture” to back up your “belief” that this is all a lie… really? You think the Christ from the book of Revelations is the Christ that would appear to A CHILD WHO IS SCARED??? Unless you have personally had an experience in heaven and sat with him yourself, I think you should remember the scripture about “he who cast the first stone”…. see where I’m going? Not one person should judge this child or his family for writing down his account. Is it all accurate? Probably not. He’s a child. Children generally over do things. But before you down, dis, tear down, or generally call a fellow Christian a liar, you should really look at how YOU know, with 100 percent certainty that; 1. You know he’s lying. 2. You know exactly what Jesus looks like, from the day he was resurrected to the present day, preferably on a daily basis so you can get the exact time frame and compare it to make sure the time tables line up. 3. That you, in your ignorant disassembling of what someone could consider a blessed story whether fiction or not that you YOURSELF are not driving this child, his family, or ANYONE else that read the book AWAY from Christ because you are building doubts in THEIR minds about it with YOUR presumed ideals…
And by the way, I say all of this as a non-christian. I’m a gay guy. I don’t believe the same way you do, most of the world has different beliefs and such. The PROBLEM isn’t religion, it isn’t in who’s right or wrong… the problem lies with people like yourself, who tear others down who SHARE THE SAME BELIEFS YOU DO! How is this even remotely tempting for a non-believer to see this and them be drawn toward the Lord? If anything, all the bickering, fussing, and accusations on this site would drive them to do just the opposite.
Thank you for your time, unfortunately I won’t get mine back for reading the article/comments, and at least my response was short, so I didn’t waste near as much of yours. Besides, I can tell your very busy… ya know, with kid bashing and all.
You say you are a gay and an unbeliever. What would you have said if I told other people that you were NOT gay and a born-again Christian? Would I be telling the truth? I’m sure you would be upset if people were told lies about you? Well, in the same token, Jesus Christ becomes upset when people misrepresent Him and tell lies about Him. That’s why Paul said:
But don’t worry. I won’t tell others that you are NOT gay and a born-again Christian because I don’t want to misrepresent you in public. I want to tell them the truth. I don’t want to tear you down.
Are you a member of Westborough?
Westborough? No! Why?
It is amazing to me that you can feel you have the Spirit of Christ as you have such a condesending arrogant attitude. Definitly not the Spirit of Christ for sure. Even if this young man is deceived, which I am not saying he is, your spirit is not of Christ and your twisting of scripture to justify your believe is astounding. You portray a spirit of the Phaisees. Try the fruit of the Spirit, kindness, gentleness, longsuffering maybe a little selfcontol would help also.
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
there in lies the problem with solo scriptura.
Wow, what a bunch of Pompous, opinionated, self righteous Bible parroting piss poor examples of so called Christians. You make the Pharisees look like Archangels. NONE of you have been to Heaven. NONE of you have seen JESUS face to face and certainly, none of you have a clue as to what really happened.
I read this book. I thought it was AWESOME. What Colton went thru would have put you all in the all too deserved cold grave. NO ONE is worshipping this ‘book’. NO ONE is worshipping Colton, his father or anyone for that matter.
The Bible is rife with stories where GOD uses the least to do his work. Colton is a very fine example. An extremely little child from NoWhere Nebraska. If but one (1) person is saved through this, then GOD’s will is done.
You limit GOD to a book. Do any of you ‘believe’ GOD is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and that NOTHING is impossible for GOD?
Colton’s experience is an Inspiration to me and obviously to many, many others as well. This experience and the likes of The Perfect Truth (whom you also tore a new one) only solidifies my Faith, Trust and Love for JESUS CHRIST. HE is the Light, the Way and the Truth. YOU are nothing!
I am sorry, but I will put my trust in the LORD to show me the way. It’s time you people get out of the African sun and see the REAL LIGHT of JESUS CHRIST!
You must be a Roman Catholic?
If you are prepared to vouch your faith on the experience of someone else, then you should ask yourself if you are truly saved. Your above statement alone is proof that the whole thing is NOT true. Faith is never based on experience or sight, let alone on the experience of someone else like a little boy.
I urge you to do the following.
Your statement “Even if this young man is deceived, which I am not saying he is,” shows that you are not too sure yourself. You are being disobedient to Jesus Christ who said:
Want to know what the true Spirit of Christ is? Sure you do.
You are deceived if you think that Satan’s deceptive strategies are the fruit of the Spirit. “Love” as you know, is one of the fruits of the Spirit. The fact that you do not mind whether Colton is deceived or not is definitely not the way to show forth love. When Jesus asked Peter “Do you love Me” He told him to “feed My sheep.” In other words, Peter had to give them the right spiritual food and NOT deceive them. He had to protect the lambs and the sheep against ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Well written. We are called to discern and the contextual scriptures are our guide. There are many places where we are warned of false Jesus’s etc. I find it sad that when you try and point out truth based on scriptures that you are somehow bashing a child. His parents are at fault. Just shows me how sadly ignorant people are
No one is bashing the child or his parents. We are merely evaluating what is said and claimed in the book against the Word of God, which is a command of God. (1 John 4:1)
Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:
NOwhere did I ever indicate my ‘faith’ was based on this child.
“Your above statement alone is proof that the whole thing is NOT true.”
NOT true of what?
You never answered my question: Do any of you ‘believe’ GOD is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and that NOTHING is impossible for GOD?
I truly don’t believe you do.
Not only are you ‘bashing’, but you are judging as well…
Dennis Thompson wrote:
Apparently you haven’t looked in the mirror.
You shit flinging Protestants with no real knowledge of scripture make me sick. You take Sacred Scripture and you twist it to make it seem to agree with your heretical teachings, and you’ve always done just that ever since Luther took seven books out of the Bible. Guess what the Catholic Church compiled and preserved the Bible for a millennia you insufferable twats. Also the rapture is a Protestant modern lie. Oh well, I don’t believe the kid really went to Heaven either but this article really was hysterical I couldn’t tell if it was real but I laughed my ass off hahahahaha
Your exact words were, “Colton’s experience is an Inspiration to me and obviously to many, many others as well. This experience and the likes of The Perfect Truth (whom you also tore a new one) only solidifies my Faith, . . .” If your own or anyone else’s EXPERIENCE solidifies your faith, then you have a problem. Faith is the substance of things NOT SEEN (Hebrews 11:1), and yet you, contrary to what the Bible teaches, are prepared to have your faith solidified by what a child has allegedly seen in heaven. You don’t seem to know and understand what you yourself had written. You didn’t say your faith was built on the child. You said your faith was solidified (strengthened) by his experience.
Once again, you don’t seem to understand what you yourself had written. Your statement above “Colton’s experience is an Inspiration to me and obviously to many, many others as well. This experience and the likes of The Perfect Truth (whom you also tore a new one) only solidifies my Faith, . . .” proves beyond any doubt that it cannot be true because your statement and Colton’s alleged experienced contradicts the Bible in many ways.
Someone’s experience does not prove or disprove God’s omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. I prefer to base my knowledge of God’s omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence on the Bible alone and NOT on anyone’s experience. You are the one who does not believe in God’s omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence because you do not rely non the Bible but someone’s else’s experience to solidify your faith in God’s omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.
I suppose Paul was also a basher when he said:
The article proves beyond any doubt that there are many things Colton saw that are diametrically contrary to what the Bible teaches. Are you prepared to vouch your faith on the things he allegedly saw?
What you need is some real papist soap to wash out your filthy tongue and mouth.
Just want you to know, that many people have seen Jesus, and Many years ago, my mom who had never had a father, and Loved the Lord, praised and worshiped the Lord Jesus all the time, Said Jesus came into the room and sat her on his lap like a father would a small child, she went home to be with the Lord a couple of years ago,
about 6 months before she passed into heaven, She had a vision of heaven when she was going into her garden, IT was so very real that she stood by the gate for hours just in case he came back to call her home then.
When she went home, she had some of her vitals shut down, Her eyes had turned pretty yellow, that day, Her lower body had already become pretty cold.
Then all at once, Her whole body got really hot, and her eyes lit up, turned bright healthy Sparkling blue, she smiled, and the whites of her eyes turned bright healthy white. She went home then.
She was ready to meet the Lord Jesus. She looked forward to that day for many years. She had a radiant smile that lit up the room everywhere she went all of her life.
She brought love peace and joy into your room, life and home.
I know that is Gods Characater. Different people see Jesus in different ways, You see He is God, and HE is LOVE, and he brings life healing and Joy with him. He hates sin because Sin kills the people he loves and came to save. There are many many accounts of people going to heaven. Check out Ian MacCormicks story of when he was stung by box jellyfish 4 times in the Indian Islands. He started out thinking there were all kinds of gods, and through the experience he met the True God. I’ve met the man, God is Real, and Heaven is Real, and Sadly Hell is also very real.
Check out Helen Baxters account of seeing hell many times so she could tell the world that indeed it is very real.
I can assure you that when Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, appears to you, you will fall down in awe on your face and worship Him. You will never sit on his lap. There is nothing in the Bible indicating that people ever sat on his lap. When Jesus appeared to John on the island of Patmos he fell down at his feet as if dead. (Rev 1:17). He didn’t rush up to Him to sit on his lap.
The reason why people believe that charlatans like Helen Baxter has gone to hell and back is because they refuse to believe the Bible. Jesus Christ preached more on hell than on anything else and still they do not believe Him. What makes you think they will believe a woman who supposedly went to hell and back to prove to them that hell is real? This is what the Bible says about hell.
Did you notice what Abraham said? He said that unbelievers on earth will not believe even though a man from the dead (hell) were to come and warn them about hell. Why? – because they do not believe what the Bible says about heaven and hell. They have the Bible at their disposal to read and study but they refuse to believe it. Helen Baxter is a sham. She’s making a helluva (excuse the pun) lot of money – not from unbelievers because they don’t read books like that. She’s pocketing the money of believers who just love to be misled because they do not read and study their Bibles. They are too lazy and rely on people like Helen Baxter to teach them.
I have 2 points that I would like to make clear.
1: Catholics do NOT worship Mary. We never have and never will. We honor her as the Mother of God. Is not Jesus our Brother? is not then Mary our (spiritual) Mother? What is the 4th Commandment? Honor thy Father and thy Mother. Jesus Honored his Parents and so should we. How is having a special place in your heart for the Mother of our Redeemer a bad thing? Do you not have a special place and love for your mom or dad? What about your siblings or spouse? Or your son or daughter? We can and should love and have special places in our hearts for our dear ones. Why then can’t we show love and respect for Jesus’ Mother? Please do not try and tell others what the Catholic Church (the One True Church established by Jesus Christ Himself) believes and teaches regarding Mary if you don’t really know or understand what it teaches.
2. How dare you call the Mother of God the Whore of Babylon!!! Do you think that is pleasing to Almighty God? Mary is the New Eve. She has done what all of us have failed to do. She is the only creature to have said Yes to God in all things!!! She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth!! To quote from Sacred Scriptures – “For behold from hence forth all generations shall call me blessed” – Luke Ch 1 Vr 48
We don’t worship her. We Love and Honor her as does Jesus Christ and we look to her as the perfect model of how to live for Christ and love Him.
May the Holy Spirit, the Spouse of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary open your minds and hearts so that all may come to the fullness of the Truth.
Peace and God Bless
Show me a single verse in Scripture where we are told to pray to Mary. Neither Jesus nor his apostles and Paul advised anyone to pray to Mary. I am quite surprised to see that you call Jesus your Brother. Listen to what Jesus Himself said:
You are definitely NOT doing the will of the Father when you pray to Mary. So, you cannot call Jesus your Brother.
Why would you deliberately capitalize “Father” and “Mother” in those verses that tell us to “Honour thy father and mother?” You are deliberately twisting Scripture to fit your agenda. Honouring your earthly father and mother does not mean that you ought to pray TO them. Yes, you must pray FOR them but never TO them.
Yes Jesus honoured his earthly parents (there you go again, capitalizing “Parents”), but He never prayed to them. In fact, He once said:
Note that He spoke these words to Mary and Joseph and that He did not say “Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s and Mother’s house?
No one said that you should not have a special place in you heart for your own blood family. Do you pray TO them?
Do you know what your own church teaches with regard to Mary? Here are some things your own church fathers said and some of the prayers the Catholic Church teaches you to pray to Mary.
Have you placed your eternal salvation in Mary’s hands and have you entrusted your soul to her? If you had, you can’t be saved because the Bible says there is only One Saviour.
If you don’t worship her, why then do you call her your Advocate?
This is pure blasphemy because Jesus Christ alone is our Advocate. Mary does not sit on God’s right hand as our Advocate.
Mary is not the only one who is called the blessed of God. All true believers are called his blessed people. Read Matthew 5. So what’s your point?
You look to Mary as your perfect (sinless) model? Really? Isn’t Jesus supposed to be our perfect (sinless) model?
God Himself calls the Mary of Catholicism a harlot.
Israel was severely punished and sent into captivity when they worshiped the so-called Queen of heaven.
I really think you should repent and start to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You have been deceived by your church.
I was searching for some critical reviews of “Heaven is for Real” from a Catholic perspective and had the grave misfortune to stumble across this seething hotbed of hatred, heresy and foolishness. It should be obvious to anyone who looks at it seriously that the Catholic Faith is true. Period. You have rejected Christ in his one, holy, catholic and apostolic church, you have rejected him in the Eucharist, you have rejected him in his offer of reconcilliation through forgiveneness of sin by an apostle or one with apostolic authority, you have rejected the other members of the Body of Christ. The “tower of babel” which I see here reminds me of why Christ gave PETER AND THE APOSTLES AND THEIR LEGITIMATE SUCCESSORS the power to bind and loose, the power of the keys, and the power to forgive sin. The private revelations contained in this very questionable book “Heaven is for Real” are, in the eyes of the Church, just that — “private” and therefore suspect until vetted by the only body qualified to vet such revelations — the official Magisterium of the Catholic Church, with Her teaching authority. It is there for your protection as well, but you ignore her, as surely as you blaspheme the Holy Mother of God (“All generations will call me blessed,” remember that?), the members of the Church, and mock the unity which Our Lord wept and prayed for. You freely steal the Scripture which is nothing other than the Holy Text of the Catholic Church and freestyle with it, even though that Scripture EXPRESSLY FORBIDS private interpretation. Have at it, you writhing, seething, disobedient children of the evil one. Repent! Come into the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church NOW, and do everything for Her building up and sanctification. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.
The tragedy is that you are worshiping and following another Jesus.
The true Jesus of the Bible said:
Hi Deborah. I agree with many points in your article. I would humbly posit, though, that your approach to those who have honest disagreement with you is one of scorn, rather than one of patience and a true desire to share God’s Word. I, for one, am saddened by those of your responses that are the online version of spitting through your teeth at someone. My 6year old son died last year, and the book brought me much comfort, but certainly the Word of God itself brought hope and comfort that is that much greater! I’m okay with the assumption that the book isn’t entirely true. Please don’t discount the value that we can find in these stories… If, as you said, it points us to the scriptures, is it completely without value? I grieve every day over the loss of my son; but I grieve with joy knowing that he is in the presence of our Lord and Savior. Just because I draw a small additional measure of comfort from this book does not mean that I am under a satanic influence or that I serve a “different” Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible.
Thank you for allowing us to comment
Have you considered the fact that they are not in disagreement with Deborah but with God and his Word? Anything that is not in agreement with God’s Word is a lie and all lies come from Satan (John 8:44). Since when do you contend for his lies instead of for the Truth (Jude 1:3)?
I’m very sorry to hear that your son died. However, you should seek and find solace in God’s Word and not in the experience of another who allegedly went to heaven and back.
The Bible says that we should love Jesus Christ more than we do our own families. That means that we should always cling to Him and his Word and not allow ourselves to be misled, no matter how dearly we love our next of kin.
The Jesus Colton saw and on whose lap he allegedly sat is definitely not the Jesus of the Bible. Would you rather have your deceased son be with Colton’s Jesus?
Please bear in mind that not all the comments are written by Deborah. They are written by me, Thomas Lessing.
Since when do you contend for his lies instead of for the Truth (Jude 1:3)?
My goodness, I do not contend for lies. I do not believe in this book as I do in the Bible. God’s Word always, always reigns. Without question.
Perhaps God has put this book in our path so that we can have this very type of debate. Iron sharpens iron, and I definitely do not claim to grasp all of scripture. Reading this blog has indeed caused me to think more and search the Bible for understanding.
Maybe I can express it this way: My son was special needs with both physical and intellectual disabilities. When he passed away, a friend who is also a biblical counselor remarked: “just think how wonderful it is – he is running, playing and laughing with other children in heaven! “. Now, I don’t know that he is physically running and playing because he has not yet received his glorified body. However, imagining my son doing these things in the presence of The Lord is about as close as my feeble human imagination can get to thinking about how much joy awaits us in Heaven. No way can I comprehend the sheer majesty of it all – I acknowledge that. I’m not trying to promote lies, I’m trying to personally understand God’s promises in my own fallen state. I think the Burpos are doing the same thing.
“Show me a single verse in Scripture where we are told to pray to Mary?”
To answer that, read the last verse of the Gospel of St. John. “But there are also many other things that Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written”
There is a lot of stuff that wasn’t written down. That’s why we have Tradition. Not everything is in the Bible.
Here’s a couple of things to read
Read Mark 13:31 – heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus’ Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible (by the Catholic Church), and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Catholic Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.
Read Mark 16:15 – Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally.
Read Mark 3:14; 16:15 – Jesus commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. Jesus gives no commandment to the apostles to write, and gives them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn’t He have said a word about it?
Read Luke 10:16 – He who hears you (not “who reads your writings”), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.
Read Luke 24:47 – Jesus explains that repentance and forgiveness of sins must be preached (not written) in Christ’s name to all nations. For Protestants to argue that the word of God is now limited to a book (subject to thousands of different interpretations) is to not only ignore Scripture, but introduce a radical theory about how God spreads His word which would have been unbelievable to the people at the time of Jesus.
And also regarding praying to Mary. Prayer is also speaking or talking. Praying does not necessarily mean “worship”. So when we pray “to” Mary we are talking to her and asking her to take our requests and petitions to God.
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Say a friend came up to you and said hey my mom is dying of cancer can you say a prayer for her during this hard time. Would tell your friend to have his mother pray to God herself?? I think not. If we can pray for others and ask them to pray for us then why can’t we ask the Mother of God pray for us? She’s in Heaven right there with God!! “Pray for us most holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”
As you see, we are entrusting ourselves to Mary so that she may plead to God on our behalf.
As for calling Mary our advocate.
Here is the definition of advocate: a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy.
So like I said before, we are asking Mary to take our petitions to God and recommend us to Him. Nothing wrong with that. It’s up to God to decide what He wants to do after that. So why can’t He grant favors through his Saints. We don’t believe Mary – by her “own” power – can do anything.
Those Saints you quoted that talked about Mary. They are just basically saying that they trust Mary will take their cause and pray to God for their salvation and that they have hope that God will listen to Her. That is why She is our Hope. She is our Hope that God will hear our prayers and save us. “She” is not “doing” the saving. God is. Again just like asking someone for help. Nothing wrong with that. If you had to ask a King a favor and you asked the Kings Mother to ask the King for you, don’t you think the King would be more likely to hear your request if it was requested by His own Mother? I think so.
Here’s something interesting to read – From the earliest days of the Church, Mary has been known for her great intercessory power. In the 3rd century (before the Bible was put together), Saint Irenaeus of Lyons described Mary as an “advocate”. Why do we need an advocate? Scripture tells us that we are all sinners and, one day, we will be judged for our actions. (Jesus is the judge) Just as in a court of law it would be foolish to try to defend ourselves, we need someone to stand beside us and defend us, someone who understands intimately the ways of God. That someone is Mary.
You may bring up a point about how we’re not supposed to pray to the dead. But that is nonsense. Mary and the Saints are not dead. They are very much alive and in Heaven. As we see when Jesus on the mountain at his Transfiguration was plainly talking with Moses and Elias. There is a difference between trying to conjure up spirits and asking the living Mother of God a favor.
Also, you do know that the Catholic Church is the one who put the Bible together? Also, how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is correct? Where does it say that in the Bible?
Jesus established only One Church. He says so. Matt 16: 18 – “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
He did not say I will build my “Churches”
There can only be One True Church and that Church has the Power and Authority through the Holy Spirit to interpret the Sacred Scriptures. If everyone one could interpret how ever they thought best then there would be Chaos. (as you can see by the thousands of protestant religions)
If you truly want to follow all of the teaching of Christ can I ask you a question? Do you eat and drink Christ’s Body and Blood? You do know that he commands us to?
Read John Chapter 6
“Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.”
“Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?”
“After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.”
We could go on and on but I will leave you with this final plead – please, again, for the love of God, do not call the The Blessed Virgin Mary those terrible things that you say that she is from Revelations. That, sadly, is your interpretation and an incorrect one at that.
Peace and God Bless.
So it’s OK to assume that because John 21:25 alludes to the fact that prayers to Mary may include the many things He did not do, it’s OK to pray to Mary despite the clear warning in Jeremiah 7 and 44? The “He” in John 21 is, as you may have gathered, Jesus Christ who did the many things not mentioned in the Bible. If prayers to Mary was one of those omitted things, then He, Jesus Christ Himself must have prayed to Mary. That’s ludicrous, to say the least.
Rubbish! The Septuagint, a Latin translation of the Hebrew Bible (i.e. the Old Testament) was fully completed nearly two centuries BC. Guess what, the Old Testament, by way of prophecy, tells us just about everything about Jesus and the things He would do during his First Advent. In fact, the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. And that’s precisely why Paul referred to it so often. What does that tell you? It means that Paul could preach about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ ((the Gospel) while referring to the Old Testament. Therefore, the apostles and Paul did not need the concoction the RCC came up with centuries later (including the Apocrypha). They already had the complete Gospel of Jesus Christ written down for them in the Septuagint which appeared two centuries before the birth of Christ.
Mary was as much a sinner as Cain and Esau and therefore prayed as follows:
Be careful what you add and take away from Scripture. It is very dangerous. You cannot add to it whatever you wish, including prayers to Mary, just because John 21:25 says He did many more things that are not written in the Bible.
Well, if the Bible is your only Truth and not the book, why do you seek solace in the book?
Your friend is correct. Hold fast to his words for your consolation and not those of the Burpos.
I never said you are promoting lies. I asked you a question “Since when do you contend for his lies instead of for the Truth (Jude 1:3)?” Anyone who defends the Burpos’ book is contending for its lies. It’s as simple as that. Anyone who defends the book and tells others how wonderful the book is, is leading others into the same deception. That’s dangerous, to say the least. You will have to give an account to God one day.
We Catholics don’t worship Mary as a deity (God). We just venerate her.
Thomas Lessing . What you have said about our Blessed Mother is in fact incorrect and sacrilegious. You clearly have no knowledge of the Catholic Church, Our Lord and Savior, Our Blessed Mother, our beliefs and our faith. Your preconceived notions of our faith, is nowhere near the truth. Aaron is correct both in definitions and about Our Blessed Mother and I will try and elaborate on our Blessed mother.
What was the first miracle that Jesus ever did? Turning water into wine… Why did Jesus do this? John 2:3 “And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
Let us first remove one of the biggest incorrect protestant teachings about Jesus and our Blessed Mother. Jesus refers to his mother as “woman.” Many Protestants say that Jesus called his mother this to make it clear she is no better than any other woman. This idea translates to Jesus essentially putting his mother down. This is easily proven incorrect and even by using protestant teachings. Let me ask this question. Has Jesus ever sinned…? No, for he was perfect. Putting his mother down would be a sin against the 4th commandment: Honor thy Father and Mother. If Jesus didn’t sin, then calling her woman must have had more meaning. In the garden Genesis 3:15 “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: She shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. “
Mary is the woman that God is refereeing to and who Jesus is calling. Why, because through her seed we are saved and through this victory the serpents head was crushed. Also, Jesus is perfect in every way, not only did he not know sin he could not come from sin which also meant that his mother had to be free from sin. That is why God put enmities between her seed and the seed she bore, Jesus. For he is perfect!
Second. Jesus clearly states, “My hour has not yet come.” What does this mean? Simply put, it isn’t time for Jesus to begin his miracles. Yet, Jesus performs the miracle at his mother’s request. Why…? Because he loves her! And this also proves how powerful our Blessed Mother is when she is the one asking. Remember Aarons definition of praying.
It is a shame that you are blind to the goodness of our Blessed mother. Even the angel that visited Mary knelt before her. “Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among woman,” he said. Hail is what is said to Kings and Queens before kneeling. And, Mary was not yet with child. Why would an Angel kneel to a woman that you described to be so horrible? This shows your lack of knowledge and your lack of love of Christ by disgracing his mother. Jesus thought highly of his mother and he loved us so much that he gave us a great and powerful gift on the cross. Woman, behold thy son and to the disciple: Behold thy Mother. Even dying for our sins and redeeming those that wish to have it, he gave us another gift. He gave man (human race) the one thing he love more than anything, his mother.
You disgrace God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, when you speak so disgracefully of our Blessed Mother. “Mary was as much a sinner as Cain.” Please stop with your incorrect and delusional translations. Luke 1:41 Elizabeth filled with the Holy Ghost: “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come.” It is clear that Mary is more than any normal woman and the mother of John knew this and was so filled with the Holy Ghost. Who are you to deny the Holy Ghost?
As a devout Roman Catholic it is quite obvious that you would use the corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible translation that says Mary crushed the serpent’s (Satan’s) head. This is blasphemy because it suggests that Mary was crucified for our sins and not Jesus who crushed the serpent’s head on the cross.
Jesus, on the other hand said:
Jesus seems to have been more concerned about his saints doing the will of his Father thatn with his mother. In fact Matthew 12 confirms this:
Like Aaron you have been deceived by your church.
Do you know what your own church teaches with regard to Mary? Here are some things your own church fathers said and some of the prayers the Catholic Church teaches you to pray to Mary.
Have you placed your eternal salvation in Mary’s hands and have you entrusted your soul to her? If you had, you can’t be saved because the Bible says there is only One Saviour. Mary must be omnipresent to be able to protect every single Roman Catholic (an estimated 1.2 billion) at the same time. That would make her God, wouldn’t it? The fact that you believe you will perish in hell if your were to neglect to call in prayer on her, proves without any doubt that you worship her. You seem to be completely ignorant of what your church teaches. I urge you to get out and flee for your life before its too late.
I have heard everything now. How sad a take away from such misguided and distorted perceptions.
Such a misread does not even justify nor dignify a rebuttal so I have nothing further to add nor even care to do so.
PS Yes Satin is alive as is well demonstrated in such readings and takeaways.
You keep quoting Jeremiah. I read those chapters and no where does it say anything about Mary. It says not to worship false gods. We Catholics only worship God as I have previously explained in great detail. As for that line about the “queen of heaven” in Jeremiah – that was a goddess (the Moon) that the pagans worshiped. They were worshiping the Moon, a false god. And if you insist that it refers to Mary then can I ask who came up with that interpretation? Did you? If not you, then do you know by whom and in what year that idea came to be? As I previously explained the Sacred Scriptures can’t be interpreted by anyone and everyone or else there would be chaos. How would you know who has the right interpretation?
Again, we don’t believe that if we don’t pray to Mary we will go to hell. That is you misinterpreting the the devotions that the Saints had to Mary.
How can Mary be omnipresent to every Catholic? Mary is in Heaven. Heaven is not bound to the laws of time and space. Also, anything is possible with God. Are you doubting God’s power?
Acts 8: 30-31 “And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?” – And so Philip, (a Bishop of the Church), explains.
And yes I use the the Douay-Rheims version because it is approved by Christ’s Church. Who approved the Bible you read? How do you know it’s the right version? Where in the Bible does it tell you what version of the Bible is the correct one?
Also, I’m not adding anything to the Bible. I am showing what is passed on through Tradition. (which, again, I explained in detail)
Also, Mary was conceived without original sin as Joey (thank you) wonderfully explained.
“Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it” Um, that’s right, who kept the word of God better than Mary? That’s not a put down to Mary that’s a pat on the back if you ask me.
“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” – God is Mary’s saviour. He redeemed her by a special Grace – a sort of pre-conceived redemption if you will.
Imagine you are walking and there is a snake on the path ahead of you that you don’t see. Now say you get bitten (sin) and you are going to die but then this guy comes out of nowhere and picks you up, carries you to his car, and drives you to the hospital and you are saved in the nick of time. Clearly this guy saved your life. Now take the same example but this time the guy pops up right before you come upon the snake and pulls you back so you don’t get bitten. Well as you can see, this guy clearly saved you either way.
So it is with Mary.
How can we be deceived by the Church? Matt 16: 18 – “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” If the Church was teaching error then that would mean the gates of hell have prevailed. And that would mean that Jesus was a lier. If the Catholic Church is not the true Church then which one is?
Luke: 10:16 “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
If you do not hear the words of Church than you are not hearing Christ.
Please remember that I am not writing all this to try and “out do you” or to say I’m better than you or that I think you are going to hell or anything like that. I write this because you and all others need to know the Truth. If you choose not to believe than I can do nothing and will leave it up to God. May our Blessed Mother watch over you and lead you to her Son.
Peace and God Bless
How many queens are there in heaven? Jeremiah 7 and 44 speak of only one. Or are there more than one of whom the others, besides Mary, are all pagan idols. Fancy that, idols in heaven? You must be joking.
If Mary is omnipresent because she is in heaven and outside the bounds of the laws of time and space, then all the saints who are already in heaven are also omnipresent. Is Mary only omnipresent or is she also omniscient and omnipotent? She must be all three, according to your faith, because if she’s not then she cannot be omnipresent because all three the “omnis” go together. You cannot have the one and not the other. If she is all three, then she must be God and if she is God, then you are worshiping her as God. That’s blasphemy. You cannot say you do not worship Mary when you attribute to her the things that only belong to God.
The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and also that the sin of one man (Adam) passed onto all Adam’s and Eve’s descendants, including Mary. (Romans 5:12). If Mary was conceived without original sin (that was passed on by Adam and Eve onto all humankind), she must have been sinless and therefore in no need of a Saviour. Consequently her prayer in Luke 1 was a lie. Why would she admit that Jesus was her Saviour when she was as sinless as He?
Had it not been that the Church of Rome has abused it, and applied it to what was never intended, no other interpretation would have been sought for. “Thou art a rock. Thou hast shown thyself firm, and suitable for the work of laying the foundation of the church. Upon thee will I build it. Thou shalt be highly honored; thou shalt be first in making known the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles.” This was accomplished. See Acts 2:14-36, where he first preached to the Jews, and Acts 10, where he preached the gospel to Cornelius and his neighbors, who were Gentiles. Peter had thus the honor of laying the foundation of the church among the Jews and Gentiles; and this is the plain meaning of this passage. See also Gal 2:9. But Christ did not mean, as the Roman Catholics say he did, to exalt Peter to supreme authority above all the other apostles, or to say that he was the only one upon whom he would rear his church. See Acts 15, where the advice of James, and not that of Peter, was followed. See also Gal 2:11, where Paul withstood Peter to his face, because he was to be blamed – a thing which could not have happened if Christ (as the Roman Catholics say) meant that Peter was absolute and infallible. More than all, it is not said here, or anywhere else in the Bible, that Peter would have infallible successors who would be the vicegerents of Christ and the head of the church. The whole meaning of the passage is this: “I will make you the honored instrument of making known my gospel first to Jews and Gentiles, and I will make you a firm and distinguished preacher in building my church.”
Five verses later (Matthew 16:23) Jesus called Peter Satan.
I really and truly do not need your or the RCC’s so-called truth because it is NOT the truth.
Jeremiah only speaks of 1 because like I said before, he is talking about the moon goddess that the pagans worshipped at the time. Idols in heaven? Yeah, the pagans believed in a lot of gods in the heavens (“sky”, “space”). Your point holds no ground.
Did you know that in the ancient times of the Jews, a king’s mother was considered the queen. Jesus was a Jew and the King of Heaven and Earth, therefore His Mother is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Simple as that. a queen’s position and title do not lessen or infringe upon the king’s position and rule. common sense stuff here.
omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. All 3 have to go together? Says who? If God wants to allow Mary to be present to everyone who are you to decide if God can do that or not? Again, are you questioning God’s power?
Remember, Mary can do nothing without God. Just as it wasn’t by St. Peter’s own power that allowed him to walk on water or the cure people, it was through the Power of God. So if God allows Mary to be everywhere at once then that’s for God to decide, not you. You keep thinking we believe that Mary is doing all this by her own power. But that’s not what we believe as I’ve explained time and time again. That’s is just you wanting to believe that.
Joey and I have already explained how Mary WAS saved AND was conceived without sin. You obviously didn’t read it.
As for the Church, St. Peter and the Popes.
The Holy Spirit, through the Catholic Church, teaches that a Pope is infallible in regards to Faith and Morals. That is a Pope can never declare as doctrine something that is incorrect or full of errors. This does not mean that a Pope is sinless or can’t do bad things. He is a sinner like the rest of us. Just as St Peter sometimes did things wrong. But St. Peter nor any other Pope in History has ever led the Church astray when it came to Teachings on Faith and Morals. That is the promise of Christ when he talks about the gates of hell not prevailing. And like I said before. How do you know that your interpretation of that passage is correct? Where does it say in the Bible that we all can interpret the Bible? If that is the case and we all can interpret the Bible then that would conclude that all of our interpretation must be fine. If you are correct and I am correct then why does it matter to you what anyone else believes? You should be happy that we are all interpreting the Bible. Do you see why we need the Church to be the one to determine the correct interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures?
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Pro 14:12)
That’s right. Don’t you see that that is what you are doing? You, a man, are saying “this way seems right to me”, But we need the Church, Established by Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit to show us the way.
And finally, this will be my final response as I see this is going now where. You do not seem to understand the basic logic that I am trying to show. I guess sometimes you just have to walk away.
“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you; going forth from thence, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony to them.”
I tried and now it is up to God to open you mind and heart.
Peace and God Bless
You’re so right! The queen of heaven was/is a pagan idol. Mother and child worship began in ancient Babylon with Semiramis and Tammuz, her son, and spread to all the nations and cultures throughout the world. The queen of heaven is mentioned only five times in terms of idolatry in Jeremiah and never again in the rest of the Bible. The nearest reference to the queen of heaven in the New Testament, although she is not referred to as the queen of heaven, is Revelation 17:5, “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Rev 17:5). The point I am making is that when the Bible refers to the queen of heaven it always does so in the context of idolatry.
For you to prove that the other Queen of Heaven is not an idol, you will have to come up with some verses where the Bible speaks favourably of the Queen of Heaven. The Bible never refers to Mary as the Queen of Heaven in so many words. Not even your Bible, the Douay-Rheims refers to Mary as the Queen of Heaven.
Common sense and a true understanding of the Bible proves that your common sense is insipidly wrong. First of all, kings and queens were never part and parcel of the Jewish nation. It was a pagan tradition. In fact, God never wanted a king or a queen to rule over Israel. He wanted them to revere, honour and worship Him as their King and supreme Sovereign.
To want anyone else to be your king and queen (in the spiritual realm) is not only a gross sin but an outright rejection of God.
Omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience are all attributes that belong to God alone. Together with his holiness, these are the attributes that make us want to worship Him and it is for this reason that He will never give these attributes to anyone else, including Mary. Let alone Peter.
Walking on water and healing the sick has very little to do with omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience. Even the devil is capable of doing miracles and healing the sick.
Your explanation is anti-Bible. Show me a single verse in Scripture that says Mary was conceived without sin.
One of your own infallible Popes confessed that the Popes were a bunch of heretics.
Now you tell me, who was the truly infallible Pope here – Adrian VI or all the other Popes? Pope Adrian VI’s declaration goes even further. If many popes have been heretics, then we have another reason why there cannot be an unbroken line of “apostolic succession back to Peter.” Besides proving that a person is not infallible, espousing heresy is a mortal sin in Roman Catholic theology. Its immediate consequence, so says the official Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law (a codification of the canons and decrees of the Church councils) is instant and automatic excommunication. A heretic has denied the faith and placed himself outside the Church.
A heretical pope is therefore no longer even a member of the Church, much less its head.
Unfortunately your basic logic excludes everything the Bible teaches. That’s dangerous, very dangerous.
“Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.” Because who hears the word of God and keeps it better than Mary? Jesus Christ knew no one kept/keeps Gods word in Her Heart better than Mary His Mother. Again, Jesus Christ is Praising His Mother Mary even better than the woman above, and knowingly so.
You have no idea the power of Our Blessed Mother. She has the power to save souls, how. Simply by asking! Do you not see the importance of the wedding? It is not yet my time. Think of it as God’s Plan and it was not time for him to begin working miracles. Yet, our Lord cannot deny his mother. And even though it is not yet time, he did it anyway. Now in heaven, what would our Lord say to his mother if she was to say, please do not cast that soul into hell… He will refuse his mother nothing.
I know my Church’s teachings and they do not contradict the bible. Your interpretations do. It is you however that is ignorant of my faith and that of Our Lord. And even if you do not feel that Mary deserves that respect, she is still the mother of Jesus (GOD MAN) and even that deserves gratitude.
Do you not honor Moses, Abraham, or any of the disciples? Of course you do, yet the one person that carried our Savior in her womb deserves nothing from you. She is the Ark of the Covenant. She carried the Work of God, the Teachings of God, and the Bread of Life and you dare say I need to flee. I run -to our Mother for in her is our salvation, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Yes, I run to my Blessed Mother!!
As for my incorrect bible, does it matter who crushed the serpents head. Why did God put Enmities between her seed if she was not important? God did this and you deny her. If you deny her, than you deny Christ. If she didn’t crush the serpents head, she bore the one that could, so even indirectly she crushed it. The oldest translated bible is the Douay-Rheims Bible. Before Luther corrupted it by removing books that contradicted his beliefs, his ideas, his misinterpretations or Calvinist who added other books because he didn’t fully agree with Luther.
Historically, and this is FACT: No Church other than the Catholic Church can trace their origins to Christ. All other faiths -protestant faiths can only trace their beginnings to their founders and even they had to use the Catholic Bible to do so. There were no Lutherans when Christ was resurrected, no Baptist, or Mormons… etc. None were there during Pentecost. Not only were they not around but they weren’t around for 1600 hundred years. Every church is a break from the truth. That is fact. “I am the good shepherd and I know mine and mine know me. As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice and there shall be ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPHERD.” John 10:14.
Is this your religion? Blessed are they that kiss the Qur’an.
Is this your religion? Blessed are those who deny that Christianity is a religion of the Book (Bible)
Is this your religion? Blessed are those Catholics who convert to Islam.
Is this your religion? Blessed are the Popes who encourage people to find their hope in the Qur’an
My point that a man can err, but when speaking for the church…. He is infallable.
People make mistakes. JPII was trying to teach peace. He forgot that Jesus came to bring a sword. Though he is my Pope and I respect the position as it is a gift from our Father in heaven, however this was mistake. If he on the other hand spoke in behalf of the church, the outcome would have been totally different.
Are all protestants perfect? Is your pastor perfect? Do you read perfect? Are you going to tell me that everyone is perfect in your belief? I think not. Everyone sins… A just man sins seven times a day. That is a given. But do not mistake the err of a man as the err of the church. Regardless of his actions, the truth is still the truth and God’s Church is still here.
I know Christ died for you as well as for me. I read most of the article and comments. I am a devout Roman Catholic.
Aside from everything my fellow brothers have tried to explain and have so wonderfully witnessed, I would like to point out only a few things additionally.
First, St. Paul is very clear that “If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13
You say you don’t hate anyone, let alone Catholics. Do you measure your words? Same goes for your friend Deborah. And MANY have pointed this out to you both. It’s not enough to say you don’t hate: YOU MUST PREACH THE GOSPEL WITH LOVE. Do you love Catholics, even if you do not agree with us? If not then you match the verse I quoted above. I love Protestants, in fact my girlfriend is one of them. And I have many Protestant friends whom I love very much despite I disagree with them on certain things of Faith. Jesus prayed on the cross to the Father to forgive those crucifying, rejecting Him, for they did not know what they were doing. Jesus loves those who crucified Him. We ALL must do the same with who “crucifies” us, reject us and so forth. And by the way, just because someone is rude and disrespectful to you it doesn’t mean you can be to them and scorn them off.
Another thing: you seldom reply directly to the quotes people challenge you with. It’s fine to quote something else (often out of context as people have already pointed out to you many times), but you need to give reasonable explanations to THOSE quotes you believe are being misinterpreted. It’s too easy to go off and find some other quote in the Bible that SEEMS to say something contradictory to the quotes you’re challenged with (or, rather, according to you, the interpretation of your challengers). You have to tell me how YOU interpret those quotes. How do you interpret the quotes on Our Blessed Mother (mine and YOURS as well, despite you rejecting her)? How do you explain the angel kneeling to her? What does full of Grace mean to you? Has anyone else in the Bible been called “full of Grace”? Why do you think that just because we call her Queen of Heaven that must mean she identifies with the whore of Babylon spoken in Revelation? Prove that. How do you then explain her being full of Grace and the the whore of Babylon at the same time? We are not revering any woman-like figure in heaven that you can associate to the whore of Babylon in Revelation, we revere and love the Mother of Jesus! Be that clear to you. We love the Mother of Jesus as we can very well be sure He loves her as well. How do you measure up to that?
Thomas you must be reasonable. Don’t apply a narrow vision just because you believe that we have been deceived. Are you implying that NOTHING we believe in is true? We believe in Jesus Christ Our ONLY Savior.
For the sake of your presupposed “orthodoxy” of Faith, you are replying to people telling them what’s right and what is not, instead of simply witnessing your Faith. You quote the Bible, yet you don’t live what you quote because you don’t try to be welcoming and understanding (which doesn’t mean you have to agree with people). Jesus met with many people disagreeing with Him but he only was tough with the Pharisees because of the hardness of their hearts. We don’t have hard hearts, we love the Lord as much as you do.
How do you expect people to follow your witness when you are everything but attractive in your ways?
I leave you with one last thought. You seem to know some beautiful prayers to Our Blessed Mother. That is for me a sign of hope, that you may one day use them. Remember, should that day come for you, that you are NOT praying to a goddess. But that you’re simply asking Mary to talk to Jesus in your favor, so that He may have mercy on your soul.
God bless you Thomas. I’ll pray for you. Please pray for me, for I do not doubt your good intentions.
If man can err, as you admit, how do you kjnow he is not erring when speaking for the church? What is your benchmark to know for certain that he is not erring?
Really??? Is that the way to teach peace? Kiss a book that denies Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died on a cross. That’s a very strange way to promote peace. It sounds more like the Antichrist and his way of promoting a false peace.
This is not about being perfect. It’s about proclaiming the truth. PJII deliberately and willfully kissed the Qu’ran because he believed that being infallible he was doing the right thing. imperfection does not withhold you from knowing and proclaiming the Truth. What about the present Pope who also reveres the Qu’ran? Is he not infallible and always correct when he speaks for the church?
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8)
If you really believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, why do you attribute every single divine attribute that belongs to God alone to Mary?
In order for your and my sins to be forgiven so that we may receive eternal life through faith alone in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross, He had to be sinless. In fact, only an infinitely sinless and spotless God could pay an infinitely great ransom for all of mankind, including Mary. The entire sacrificial system in Leviticus points to this truth. Only a spotless lamb or heifer could be offered for the sins of the people in Israel.
Do these sacrifices also refer to the spotless and sinless conception of Mary?
And yet your church claims that Mary was sinless because she was miraculously preserved from original sin at her conception. As early as 1854 Pius IX had sent up a papal infallibility trial balloon. It was well-received by the Church because it involved the ever popular “Virgin Mary.” On his own initiative—by his own authority and standing alone without any Council or the magisterium supporting him—Pius IX pronounced as a dogma that all Catholics must accept the Immaculate Conception of Mary: that she was “in the first instant of her conception … preserved free from all stain of original sin….” It was, in effect, a declaration of his own infallibility—that he did not need the support of the bishops or a Council but could define such binding dogmas on his own. This in itself is an outright denial of the necessity of Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross and an infamous declaration that He did not die for Mary in particular. Even your corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible declares that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:22). Your immediate reaction, I assume, would be “Oh, that’s not true, He did die on the cross for Mary as well.” Well, if He died for Mary as well and if He died for sinners, why do you persist in the lie that Mary was sinless?
Ah, but of course, your answer comes from the corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible again. In the Catholic translation of the Bible (Douay Rheims) it reads in Luke 1:28 “ the angel said to her: Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.” Unanimously in all the other translations which are from the Greek, not the Latin. They instead say, “Rejoice, highly favored one the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women.” At first we notice she is blessed among women not exalted above them. She is chosen in preference to all the women upon earth, not men. The word for grace is what is being disputed. Roman Catholics state that this grace is a special measure to Mary only, but this does not fit the Biblical record. This word in the Greek is Kechari tomene (a perfect participle in the verb form, an omega verb) it means the one who God has graced, to give undue favor; only sinful people need God’s grace. She is being chosen in preference to all the women upon earth, favoured above all the daughters of the house of David to be the mother of the Messiah in the flesh. This refers to one who is a recipient of God’s favor, not the source of grace. This word for grace is from the root word Charitoo in Ephesians 1:6 it is also used of the believers in that church, “graced us.” A. T. Robertson, the Greek scholar states it is a late verb charitoo (from charis, grace), in the New Testament attracted to case of antecedent charitos only here and Luke 1:28 (Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament).
This term is also used of Stephen in Acts 6:8 yet no one would claim that he too is without original sin. This is the same used for all who have been graced by God. Mary was no different in this respect. It was grace given to her to conceive without the aid of man and care for Jesus.
The later part of Luke 1:28 “blessed art thou among women.” according to Strong’s concordance are inserted words; This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.) V.30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.” This grace means endued with special honor: she was honored with the blessing to birth the Messiah. Again this is the same word for grace as to believers in the New Testament. Where does it say the virgin will be without sin? It doesn’t, it does not say she is sinless but full of Grace which really is highly favored. If full of grace means without sin then what of the grace given to believers, God’s grace is promised to all the believers collectively? Mary didn’t have grace from birth but when she was going to be with child. But the Catholic Church insists Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception Catechism of the Catholic Church, 490-492).
If Mary was sinless, it must of necessity follow that she did not die. The wages of sin is death, not so? (Romans 6:23). So how did the RCC circumvent this problem? But of course, through the doctrine of the miraculous assumption of Mary into heaven. If Mary ascended to heaven like Jesus, this incredible act of someone raised in a resurrection or never dying would certainly be recorded in Scripture. Yet it is suspiciously omitted from John’s writings, the one who she was entrusted to be looked after by Jesus. John’s last book the Revelation was written 85-90 A.D. Neither John nor any historian of the early church records this. This is an unknown doctrinal event that evolved until it was ratified in 1854. Roman Catholic tradition has made speculation into doctrine with Mary being guarded from actual sin by becoming sinless. This concept was around from about the twelfth century, and was developed into a papal decree of December 8, 1854. On November 1, 1950, the bull Munificentissimus Deus declared the dogma of the Assumption of Mary. This dogma asserts “that the Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Mother of God, when the course of her life was finished, was taken up, body and soul, into the glory of heaven” (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 32 , pp. 753-73).
Where does Scripture say Mary is perfect (sinless) in her body without a resurrection? The resurrection is the very event we need to become sinless. Mary’s body rests in the ground with the rest of the saints waiting for the resurrection. There are no personal raptures until the first resurrection occurs. That will be when the whole church both the living and the dead are transformed and raised.
Mary waited in the upper room for the Holy Spirit with the rest of the apostles and disciples. Mary was not numbered among the apostles nor is she exalted in any way above their ministry as the 12 pillars of the churches foundation. She is not mentioned in heaven as the apostles are the foundation for the new Jerusalem. Nowhere do we find the apostles conferring with Mary in doctrine. Nor are there any miracles attributed to her as are with the apostles.
Despite the fact that the Bible tells us that Jesus alone was sinless and could therefore pay a ransom for the salvation of sinners, and despite the fact that nowhere in the entire Bible does it tell us that Mary was taken into heaven without dying, you still insist that you do not worship Mary. Your deification of Mary is nothing short of worship. And don’t tell me that you do not deify her. If you don’t then you must admit that she was a sinner as much as anyone else and that her decayed body still lies in her grave (she was not taken into heaven without dying).
Philip Schaff lists seven Roman bishops who rejected her sinlessness (The Creeds of Christendom [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998], Vol. I, p. 123).
Pope Leo 1 (440 a.d.) “The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born immaculate”(sermon 24 in Nativ. Dom.).
“And therefore in the general ruin of the entire human race there was but one remedy in the secret of the Divine plan which could succour the fallen, and that was that one of the sons of Adam should be born free and innocent of original transgression, to prevail for the rest both by His example and His merits. Still further, because this was not permitted by natural generation, and because there could be no offspring from our faulty stock without seed, of which the Scripture saith, ‘’Who can make a clean thing conceived of an unclean seed? is it not Thou who art alone?’” (Sermon 28:3) The unclean seed includes Mary. The one being from Adam who is sinless is Jesus – Pope Gelasius (492 a.d.)
“ It belongs alone to the immaculate lamb to have no sin at all.” (Gellasii papae dicta, vol. 4, col 1241, Paris, 1671)
Pope innocent the third (1216 a.d.) “She (Eve) was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin, she (Mary) was produced in sin, but she brought forth without sin.” ( De festo Assump., sermon 2) When the Immaculate Conception was first presented in the year 1140 it was opposed by Bernard of Clairvaux also Thomas Aquinas adamantly taught Mary was a sinner. This is something the Catholics need to deal with.
In fact this whole doctrine is fairly new not an apostolic tradition. It was in 1547, at the council of Trent that the Catholic Church announced the sinlessness of Mary enabling her to avoid venial sins. In 1620 Pope Paul the 5th forbade anything contrary to the teaching of Mary’s Immaculate Conception to be said publicly under threat of excommunication. In 1622 Pope Gregory the 15th forbade any contradictory statements of her immaculate conception to be made in private. And so began the official elevation of this servant woman the mother of the humanity of the Lord. Until Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church … Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God, conceived without original sin”), but that the reason she never sinned at any time during her life was becauseshe was unable to sin.” Then in 1950 Pius the 12th said, “Mary the immaculate perpetual virgin mother of God after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.”
One can only wonder what great revelation awaits this church after the year 2,000 and beyond. I don’t think we will have much to guess at!
“I desire to be the bond between you and the Heavenly Father – your mediatrix” the Virgin Mary tells visionary Mirjana Dragicevic-Soldo. Playing into the petitions for the Pope to declare Mary “Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate” in a fifth and final Marian dogma, it is only the second time for 30 years of apparitions the word appears in a Medjugorje message.
You are worshiping a false Jesus who cannot save.
Your church has cursed me and many others for believing that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone and NOT by works.
You have a very strange view of what love is. Of course I love Catholics. Why do you think I am warning you about the mortal errors in your church’s soteriology? What would you do if you noticed your children were bound for destruction on a path of drugs, sex and a promiscuous lifestyle? Wouldn’t you do anything in your power to stop them or at least warn them?
To preach THE GOSPEL OF LOVE you necessarily always need to point out mortal errors in anyone’s soteriology and to warn people against those who proclaim these errors. Surely, you must know that Paul continuously warned his brethren and others against false teachers and their doctrines. Indeed, he was practicing true love.
Was Paul being rude and disrespectful when he said these words? Hardly!
Yes, Jesus prayed for sinners while he was on the cross because He did not want them to fall into error. In fact, He also warned against false doctrines and its teachers.
Yes Jesus loved those who crucified Him because it was not his will that they should perish. He also prayed the following prayer.
Guess what, the Word to which He refers never once mentions that Mary was sinless and was taken up into heaven without dying. What does that tell you? It tells you that it cannot be the truth because God’s Word (the Bible) is the truth and it does not contain anything of the sort.
Is warning others being rude and disrespectful? I don’t think so.
In fact, God says that if we do not warn others their blood will be on our hands.
I have already dealt with your corrupt Bible’s rendition of Luke 1:28. All the other Bible translations do not use the words “full of grace.” If the term “full of grace” was so special that only Jesus and Mary were called “full of grace” why was Stephen also called “full of grace” in Acts 6:8? Surely, you should then also direct your prayers to him because he was also “full of grace” and quite capable to dispense grace. Ah, but he was not conceived without sin and neither was he taken into heaven without dying? If so, then why was he called “full of grace?”
Mary is no longer Jesus’ mother. She was his mother in the flesh on earth and that’s it. This is what your RCC Douay-Rheims Bible states:
If we are to regard Jesus no longer after the flesh, why should we regard Mary after the flesh? There’s nothing wrong in loving Mary or any other saint in heaven and on earth for that matter. We are commanded to love even our worst enemies. However, I do not attribute to any of the saints what you attribute to Mary – sinlessness, immaculate conception, deathless assumption into heaven etc. That’s not merely love but worship.
The whore of Babylon is NOT the Mary of the Bible. She is the Mary of the Roman Catholic Church who was first conceived in Babylon with Semiramis and her son, Tammuz. You are merely perpetuating the idolatry that started in Babylon and I would like to see you repent and believe the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and not the so-called Gospel of a bunch of so-called infallible pontiffs.
It is not what you believe that saves. It is HOW you believe.
Even the devil and his angels believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If he hadn’t he would never have come up with his counterfeit Mary.
If you believed that Jesus Christ is your only Saviour, you would never have prayed infamous prayers like the following:
This is pure blasphemy!!! And the sooner you realize this, the better for you it will be.
Why should I ask Mary to talk to Jesus on my behalf when the Bible clearly states the following?
To ask Mary to appease Jesus in your behalf is an outright denial of the efficacy of his blood. It is pure idolatry.
Your witness is not supposed to be attractive.
You may pray for me but not for my salvation because I am already saved through faith alone in Christ alone and his finished work on the cross (NOT THROUGH WORKS, BAPTISM, YOUR CHURCH, INDULGENCES, ALMS, MARY AND THE MASS)
And when you pray for me, please do not direct your prayers to Mary because she can do absolutely nothing for you or for me. Rather direct your prayers directly to Jesus Christ.
And you say this is not Marian worship?
I will attempt to be as complete as possible to each and every point you made. Since I want it to be as exhaustive a reply as possible, it might take me some time (which I’m already taking away from other things, but it’s worth it!). So be patient.
1. “only sinful people need God’s grace.” Says who? Do angels possess God’s grace? I believe so. Are they sinful people? Definitely not.
2. I’ve done some research and found a great explanation just about what you mentioned. The full article can be found here: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a116.htm.
This article states:
You can read the rest of it at the link I posted above if you want the complete article.
3. You seem to always put words on people’s mouths: I never said that Mary is the SOURCE of Grace. God is the ONLY source of Grace. But since we recognize Mary as FULL of God’s Grace (favor), she can intercede for us to God (aka Jesus) and obtain the graces we so much need.
What I want you to tell me is how you explain the episode in the Gospel where Mary asks Jesus at Canaa to help the wedding couple since they had no more wine. Jesus clearly states that His hour has not yet come, nevertheless, upon her request, He changes his mind. And don’t tell me that he called her “woman” to put her down, because that would be a sin against the 4th commandment and Jesus is sinless and cannot sin. Tell me exactly why this episode of Mary’s intercession is reported in the Gospel so precisely and underlined with such detail. I could actually ask you the same thing of why is it so explicitly mentioned that she was with the eleven when the Holy Spirit came. Mary’s (silent and humble) presence with the disciples is always noted. Finally, tell me what use is to our Faith that it is reported by John that Jesus asked FIRST Mary to take John as her son and John take her as his mother? Why report this in the Gospel (since John himself says that all the things written were so that we would believe)?
We also pray to St. Stephen since we believe in his intercession as well, just like the intercession of any other of the saints. Of course, we don’t believe any of the saints were sinless, but they are in Heaven with Jesus, just like Moses and Elija in the Transfiguration episode, and converse with Jesus.
4. Yes, Aquinas had some trouble with the Immaculate Conception. But the truth is the following:
Again, after doing some research, I found this interesting explanation: http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2011/10/did-st-thomas-aquinas-deny-immaculate.html
Of which I copy here this:
5. I’m not complaining about you trying to denounce error, rather about the scorning you and Deborah showed to others in this post. That is unbecoming of a christian.
6. Testimony of devotion to Our Blessed Mother since early Christianity:
7. About the Assumption, I found interesting answers here: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
I will quote from it the following:
Your and the article’s above presupposition is that if Mary was not conceived without sin, then Jesus could not have been conceived without sin either, and could therefore not have been God’s spotless sacrificial Lamb? The CERC (http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0128.html) says it thus “Catholics believe that God wanted a perfectly pure woman to carry His Son, the God of the universe, for nothing else short of perfection would do.” Jesus Himself said He came to seek and to save lost sinners (Luke 19:10). How could He possibly save Mary from sin when she had no sin while she herself said “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”? You say you love and revere Mary. I say you don’t because you and your church have effectively excluded her from Jesus’ saving grace expressed in Luke 19:10.
Let’s quickly look at the meaning of perfection. Bearing in mind that we are discussing things in the spiritual realm, perfection must mean perfect sinlessness and perfect goodness. At least we agree on that. Now, do you remember what Jesus once said about goodness? “And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. (Luke 18:19). It follows that if Mary were to be perfectly sinless she also would have had to be perfectly good. If Jesus was correct in saying that God alone is perfectly good, then He must have admitted that Mary is God. And still you insist that you and your Catholic brethren do not worship Mary. If she is God and you do not worship her, you are being downright disobedient and in blatant rebellion against the will of God.
Anything short of God’s perfect goodness is sin and that is precisely why Paul says in Romans 3:23 “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (his perfect goodness). “Coming short” means that we do not deserve his mercies and favours and most of all that we cannot earn his mercies and favours through good works. We will always come short of God’s perfect goodness no matter how many good works we do. The Bible says that our best works are like filthy menstrual rags (Isaiah 64:6). Even your corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible says so: “And we are all become as one unclean, and all our justices as the rag of a menstruous woman: and we have all fallen as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”
What proof do you have from Scripture that Mary as a young child and later as a young woman was always perfectly good? And even if you had some kind of evidence you would still have to admit that her most perfect works were “as the rag of a menstruous woman.” Unless, of course, she herself is God because God alone is perfectly good.
Is Luke 1:28 the only verse in Scripture you can come up with to try and prove that Mary was conceived without sin and lived a perfect sinless life?
I have just proved to you that if Mary was perfectly sinless she would also have had to be perfectly good which, according to Jesus’ own words in Luke 18:19 would mean that she is God. Indeed, God alone is “full of God’s grace.”
This is the only verse in the entire Bible (excluding the corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible) where the words “full of grace and truth” appear. And guess what? It is used only in reference to Jesus Christ. Here “full of grace and truth” are given as “Plhrhs charitos kai alEtheias.” If Mary were to be “full of grace and truth” these exact words would have appeared in Luke 1:28 and not the words “alEtheias (“having been the favoured one). By the way, “full of grace and truth” must of necessity go hand in hand. “Full of grace” and “Truth” cannot be separated. What does that tell us? If Mary was “full of grace” she must also have been “full of truth.” Once again that would make her God. Jesus said:
No! saith you and the RCC “Mary is the way to God (Jesus Christ). What utter blasphemy. Do you have no fear of God to believe such heresy?
Furthermore, Luke 1:30 says “And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.” Here the word “charin” (unmerited favour) is used for grace. If she was already full of grace in Luke 1:28, why would she need to obtain grace (unmerited favour) from God? Only sinners need God’s unmerited favour.
This article is quick to say “There is no record of that” (the bodily assumption of the saints into heaven who were raised from the dead after Christ’s resurrection), and yet you can say with assured certainty that Mary was taken bodily into heaven without any record of it ever happening. Of course the biblical Mary’s spirit and soul was taken into heaven after she died like all the other saints who have already died. The article above admits that the RCC cannot say with assurance that she died or not. “The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life” (note the silence regarding her death), “was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.”
First of all, the Bible does not say that the saints who were raised from the dead after Christ’s resurrection received bodies after the kind unto that of Jesus. What we do know from such scriptures as 1 Thessalonians:4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians:15:51-52 is that God has resurrected no one to eternal life as an immortal yet—except Christ. If Jesus had resurrected anyone to eternal life already, He could not have been the firstfruits of those that slept. They would all have been his co-firstfruits. Jesus said:
What then about Enoch and Elijah? Were they not taken up to heaven alive? Here’s a good article you can read.
I’m sure you’re going to address the other points I made soon, so I’ll be patiently waiting for those.
As far as the comments you just replied with, you seem to constantly be keeping an opinion (it is YOUR opinion) that eventually misleads your conclusions: that we must worship Mary.
Now, let’s make it clear that I believe we agree that there’s a difference between God and creatures. That’s why I brought you the example of the angels (which you have not replied to, yet another example of you bypassing my arguments as I had told you before). Yes, Jesus says that only God is good. But He also says that we must HATE our own life in order to follow Him. The problem here is the axiom of taking everything that is written in the Bible literally, without taking account for cultural expressions and simple attempts to just make a pioint. The reason why Jesus told the young man that only God is good was a direct and simple way of stating His divinity. Simple as that. Jesus was trying to tell Him: “If you recognize me as a good teacher, be sure to know that I’m more than that, I’m The Lord!”, so to help him understand that what He was about to ask him was coming from God and that he needed to not be discouraged or afraid. Jesus himself warns against narrow vision interpretation of scripture several times: when he proves to the sadducees that God is God of the living and not of the dead (whether these are living in Heaven, or another place – a first or a second heaven, or the bosom of Abraham, they are anyways ALIVE despite having died) ; also when he replies to the accusation of blashemy of the Pharisees who want to kill Him becuase he’s declared Himself as the Son of God, what does Jesus reply? Isn’t it written in your scriptures ” I have said you are gods” Jn 10:34, which goes to show that either those pharisees were ignorant of that passage and thus were unjustly accusing Jesus (I doubt) or that they certainly did not take that passage as literal, thus their opposing Jesus Who instead was claiming VERY LITERALLY to be the Son of God. So even the pharisees were not always interpreting scripture literally….or were ignorant, or both (most probably, blinded by their own misconceptions and obtuse pride).
If you interpret all of these things literally, there’s a problem. Jesus doesn’t want us to hate our life. He’s simply using a jewish way of expressing extreme ideas common to His time: you must love God absolutely above your own life. But he certainly does not mean He requires us to HATE our life per se.
I agree with you that no man has entered Heaven because Jesus’s redemption hadn’t happened yet. But God is not bound to time and space.
That’s why He could redeem Mary despite her never having actually fallen into any sin: by PREVENTION. I’ve explained this in my citation of Duns Scotus which you have not yet commented on. God can do anything, thus He does what is most fitting to His Glory in the best logically possible way: He redeemed Mary by preventing her from falling into original sin. He could do it certainly, thus He did it. That is the best way of redeeming someone. Mary was favored exclusively in light of the fact that she was meant to carry the Son of God, Who, as God, is incompatible to sin! Jesus, as God, could not have dwelled in a sinful place for 9 months, I don’t find that very hard to believe. Mary’s is unmerited favor because she WOULD HAVE FALLEN INTO ORIGINAL SIN HADN’T GOD PREVENTED THAT BECAUSE SHE’S A CREATURE! A creature! And because she’s a creature, she’s limited. Jesus, as a MAN, is also a creature, thus limited: that’s why it is written that after they found Him in the temple He went with them and was subject to them, growing in wisdom, favor and stature. Jesus is ONE person with TWO natures. His human nature is PERFECT yet limited. Moreover, the article I posted about the Immaculate Conception and the original greek word used by Gabriel states clearly that it depicts an action that has come to completion: she was full of grace in a definitive way as MADE by Someone as such. So she did receive (since she’s a creature and not God). You have not yet answered me giving me your interpretation of the reason why we’re told in the Gospel that Jesus started His miracles after the intercession of His mother. I expect an answer.
In conclusion: we DO NOT worship Mary. Just because she’s full of grace it doesn’t mean she’s God at all. As a creature she’s full of Grace as much as a CREATURE can be, which is limited. Even Jesus AS A MAN was limited and yet full of Grace, but the fulness of Grace He has as GOD is and endless fullness, which is VERY DIFFERENT from that which can be possessed by a creature. We give her the honor God has always given her, through His angel Gabriel, through Elizabeth, through the Apostles (who were gathering around her for Pentecost), and finally that Jesus gave her, considering her so precious to Him to want to give her to all of us through the desciple he so much loved, John. And note that Jesus first said: WOMAN behold your son (John), son behold your mother. So He first asks Mary to welcome His disciple into her motherly love and care. That’s how much Jesus trusted Mary.
If you only use the Bible to interpret the Bible you will have a big problem trying to make sense of many things. That’s why the Elders and Leaders of the people in Jesus’ time had sooooo many interpretations and were wrong, to quote Jesus, VERY MISTAKEN, about the way some were interpreting scripture. And let me ask you this: where in the Bible does it say which books are supposed to be in the Bible? Didn’t you derive that from a tradition? Also: the first complete Bible was not assembled before the year 390 AD, how did christians go about without a fully written Bible until then? Didn’t Paul write many letters yet not all of them are considered Sacred Scripture? Who decided that? Is it in the Bible somewhere? Also, Paul said to Timothy to hold on to the TRADITIONS he taught him, by letter and by WORD.
LAst but not least: Catholics believe in salvation by works THROUGH GRACE. Meaning: without Grace, we cannot do good works WHICH are necessary to be saved. Our works are, as you said, nothing but scum. Jesus required us to PERSEVERE until the end, and those that do are saved. So there’s a continuing stride. Grace we obtain FROM GOD and GOD ONLY, because we BELIEVE, because of our Faith (which is a gift of God). St. James in his letter is very clear about this. To believe is not enough, you have to put what you believe to practice. That’s what Catholics believe. Yours is a blatant misconception that we WORK our way to Heaven on OUR OWN. Nothing farther from truth than this.
Thomas, you’re not objective. You are so influenced by your misconceptions and prejudices that you fail to consider Catholic Faith objectively. You are in some way making the same mistake of the pharisees in judging Jesus. And part of the reason why you act this way, in my humble opinion (so forgive me if I’m wrong, I do not intend to judge you, merely state what I believe your position to be so to make my point) is because of historical events which undoubtedly have put the Catholic Church in a grim light and because you have elected to reject ANY FORM OF TRADITION to rely ONLY on Scripture. Sola Scripture is not taught in the Bible. Find me where it is if you don’t agree. And don’t quote that usual passage where St. Paul states that Scripture is good to correct and so forth, because I believe that passsage, but St. Paul does not say it is THE ONLY way. And even your reply that the first christians could have a sort of preview of the New Testament written because they had copies of the Old Testament does not hold water in my humble opinion. They’re two different things and early christians did not have written copies of the New Testament for CENTURIES. How were they spreading their faith.
I expect you to answer this and all the previous points I have made in the previous reply. Thanks for taking the time to do that, I really appreciate it.
Oh, one last thing:
What proof do YOU have that Mary was NOT always perfectly good? I have the words of an Angel to give to you, but you very well know them. Then let me ask you: if Gabriel says she was highly in favor in God’s eyes, when did she start to be as such?
And note that, she was addressed as being highly in favor BEFORE she accepted to become the Mother of Jesus. Think about it. I’d say PRAY about it.
What proof do I have that Mary was NOT always perfectly good? I have just relayed to you all the reasons why Mary was NOT perfect and still you insist that she was sinless at her conception. You are either deliberately ignoring all the facts I presented to you or you are deliberately ignorant and blind of the verses I quoted, The reason why you are so adamant to ignore everything I wrote is because you must at all cost uphold and defend your Marian doctrines because if you don’t the Roman Catholic Church will collapse like a house of cards. The false Mary (not the Mary of the Bible) is the corner stone of your church and NOT Jesus Christ.
When we speak of God’s grace, we speak of it in terms of God’s salvation. The angels in heaven have never sinned and therefore do not need God’s grace unto salvation. You should know that.
He did not take on himself the nature of the holy angels because they had never been in bondage to the fear of death. Why? Because they have never sinned.
I must say yout argument is very flimsy, to say the least.
The difference between God and the holy angels is not at stake here. We are talking about the difference between God and fallen man of whom Mary was part and parcel. I have already quoted to you Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” Your Douay-Rheims Bible admits that, like all mankind, Mary was destined to die because “all (including Mary) have sinned. “Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.” (DRB) And yet you persist in the lie that Mary was miraculously kept safe and sound from original sin.
The more I tell you that you’re rendering of Luke 1:28, to substantiate you’re claim of the Immaculate Conception, is untrue, the more you quote it to me. Can’t you see that Luke 1:28 and John 1:14 where “full of grace” refers to Jesus Christ are miles apart? I even made an effort to try and convince you of the difference by quoting to you the differences in the Greek language in both these verses.
You don’t have to tell me why Jesus asked the man why He called Him good. I know why Jesus did it. The point is that you and your church attribute perfect goodness to Mary which Jesus explicitly said was only an attribute of God. Please don’t try to derail the real issue at stake here by telling me that I shouldn’t always take the Bible literally but to give credence to the culture of that time in order to understand certain passages. That’s nonsense. Jesus’ words in Luke 18:19 is straight forward. There are no hidden metaphors or secret meanings attached to the culture of that time in his words. Can’t you see that by saying Mary is sinless you are also saying that she is perfectly good which, according to Jesus’ words in Luke 18:19, makes her God.
Once again, the real issue is not that God is the God of the living. That’s a given fact. The issue here is that you believe Mary was bodily assumed into heaven because she was allegedly sinless. You are dodging the real issue. So please keep to the subject.
Your example of the Pharisees who supposedly did not interpret the Bible literally is just as transparent and ill-informed as your earlier arguments. Are you trying to tell me that we are gods because Jesus quoted the Law to them? Do yourself a favour and read this article. “http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/01/17/the-bible-says-i-said-you-are-gods-but-is-this-entirely-true/#more-9771.
In hindsight I must say that your arguments are becoming more and more like the ramblings of a child. You do not keep to the subject but jump from one to the other in an effort to get me off track. It won’t bring you very far.
What in heaven’s name has this got to do with Mary’s Immaculate Conception, her assumption, her sinlessness and her perfect goodness – sorry, ALLEGED? Later on you accuse me of not being objective. Being objective, my friend, is to heed what Scripture has to say about Mary and since our discussion you have only come up with a single misinterpreted verse in to prove that Mary was sinless. What kind of objectivity is that? In fact, your kind of objectivity is based on surmising, inferences, extrapolations and pure speculation. You are ducking and diving which is usually the strategy of those who have reached a point where they no longer know what and how to address the real issue at hand.
OK let’s begin with your interpretation of the reason why Jesus performed a miracle in Cana at the behest of his mother. First of all, He did not perform it because she had the power and authority to make the request and that He accordingly submitted to her request. This cannot be seen as some sort of standard template to prove that in heaven Jesus always answers her prayer requests and that He cannot refuse to comply because she allegedly has this power and authority in heaven. All authority and power in heaven and on earth was given unto Him and not to Mary or anyone else (Matthew 28:18). He is Sovereign Lord overall and sovereignly wills to whom He wants to show mercy. He has no need of another intercessor in heaven to do his work for Him as the supreme Advocate. (Hebrews 7:25).
The question we ought to ask is, was Mary knowingly asking Him to do a miracle? This is highly unlikely because this was the very first miracle He performed (verse 11). She was hoping that He would do something to solve the problem but did not know of his power to do miracles. She had not yet seen her Son do miracles. It was not that He was going to refuse to perform the miracle and that He did so anyway because his mother persuaded Him to do it. He intended to do the miracle anyway but in his time, and therefore would have delayed the performance of the miracle if Mary had not intervened and hastened his original plan. Later in John He also delayed his miracle to raise Lazarus from the grave with the specific purpose to strengthen the faith of his disciples.
Mary had to learn a painful lesson (Luke 2:35), namely that Jesus was committed to God the Father’s will (and not his earthly mother’s will) and the time for his manifestation was in the Father’s hand. Mary’s response to the servants (Do whatever He tells you) revealed her submission to her Son. Even though she did not fully understand, she trusted Him.
God is not bound by space and time but He is bound by the way lost souls should be saved. Let me quote to you AGAIN Hebrews 9:22
Mary’s salvation was NOT a bloodless intervention by prevention. I can understand why you make such a fuss of a bloodless sacrifice. Your Mass is a perpetual bloodless sacrifice. If God wanted to prevent her from being stained with the original sin of Adam and Eve, He would have had to do it the moment when her ancestral parents sinned. (Romans 5:12).
Of course God can do anything but He cannot do anything that goes against the grain of his wisdom and his power. We learn from Scripture that the cross is the wisdom and the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24; 1 Corinthians 1:18). Any attempt to circumvent the wisdom and power of God in the cross and to seek other ways of salvation other than the cross (i.e. by PREVENTION for instance) is foolishness. And yet you say it is the best way of redeeming someone. If it were the best way, why doesn’t He redeem everyone in that way? Surely the best way is the most feasible way. You also say that it is the most fitting way to glorify God. Really??? The Bible says: “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: (John 17:1). God and the Son were glorified through his death on the cross and NOT through an act of PREVENTION. In fact, when Peter wanted to prevent Jesus from going to the cross, He said “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (Matthew 16:23)
What??? Jesus as a man was a created being and thus limited? My Bible tells me that He was fully God and fully man and that as a man He had all the attributes of his Father (Hebrews 1:3) He was not limited in his nature as a man and neither was He created. He has always been the Son of God for whom a body was prepared.
He was not limited. As a man He willingly laid down the attributes of his Father so that He could accomplish our salvation. All his godly attributes remained intact when He became a man but willingly laid them aside to fulfil his Father’s will.
you accuse me of being the child while you make exactly that mistake!
You circumvent my observations all the time! Yes, because you always jump to scripture that simply enhances your fixation for the way you see things, which is only YOURS. I have 2000 years of history and billions of people that share my Faith. This is not simply fruit of my reasoning, even though I’ve had to reason through these things in order to fully believe.
Anyhow, do you understand me when I use simple words?! If I say that Jesus has 2 natures do we agree or not? Is He God? Yes, and I believe we agree. Is He man? Yes, and I believe we agree on this as well. Now, as MAN, NOT GOD, Jesus had to GROW right? He was fully man, exactly like us except for sin. Thus as MAN he was subject to limits, that’s why he felt hungry, tired and could die. As GOD he couldn’t do any of those things. Is it clear to you now? This is what I meant.
About Our Blessed Mother, you still deny a blatant fact you yourself stated: ” He intended to do the miracle anyway but in his time, and therefore would have delayed the performance of the miracle if Mary had not intervened and hastened his original plan.” So you do admit that He HASTENED because Mary asked, and of course you could not deny it BECAUSE THE PASSAGE SAYS JUST THAT!! This doesn’t mean that she was exercising power or authority and I agree with you that she showed Him respect but, above all, absolute trust, when she told the servants to do as He would tell them to. Stop taking for granted that we think of Mary being more than Jesus, more than God. That’s not what we believe. You’re fixated on the “logic” that only God is good thus if Mary is sinless this she’s good thus she’s God. This is absurd! You’re distorting all this to give strength to your argument. But it doesn’t hold water!
Thomas, don’t insult my intelligence even though you’re always full of negative remarks (which again, is unbecoming of a christian, but you continue with your unfriendly ways, forgive my saying but debating with you isn’t very pleasant: even though we may disagree it doesn’t mean you should make unhappy remarks about how I state my position. Just limit yourself to replying my questions and points and I’ll be happy). Admit that you are the one so firm on having to prove me wrong that you don’t even realize when you’re not making sense.
If there’s no remission without bloodshed, then I ask you: what did Jesus allow his apostles to do when the Sunday after His resurrection He breathed them the Holy Spirit and gave them the power to forgive and retain sins? Did He allow them to shed blood every time they forgave sins? I really would like to know what is your interpretation of this passage (Jn 20:22).
You have even given me proof of the interpretation from the Greek?!? Did you read my reply or not?! I fully answered you to that just as well, based on the Greek and I’ve proven to you that what was referred to Our Blessed Mother was an act of making her full of grace that had come to completion as opposed to the term referred to the believers as in Eph 1:6 where the verb represents an ongoing process. Do you yourself read my answers or only what you find convenient?!? Now I’m going to start giving you the same replies and use the same tone you use in your answers. Let’s see if you like it!
In Mt 5:48 Jesus says “”Therefore you are to be perfect, AS your heavenly Father is perfect”. We need to be not only good, but perfect. Does that make us God!?!? Come on!!! You want to take it literally? Ok: then Jesus would be asking us to be God! Of course he’s not! He’s asking us to take God as our model and strive for a holiness like His even if we would never be able to match Him! Right?!?!?
St. Peter says in his first letter “but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” 1 Pt 1:15.
You seem to fail to understand the difference between God and creature. It is not the attributes that makes someone a God or a creature, rather the substance, the nature! God is God, the Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier, while a creature is a creature! That doesn’t mean a creature can’t be holy! And if it is holy it doesn’t mean it is God!! Angels are holy yet they are not God! AND I HAD JUST STATED THAT THEY ARE NOT SINFUL PEOPLE YET YOU IGNORE MY ANSWERS OR READ THROUGH THEM! That passage you quoted on the fact that Jesus took upon our nature and not that of angels HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT I WAS MAKING. You are so fixated with what you see as so absurd that we regard Mary at such a privileged place that it just doesn’t allow you to see our reasons. Why does it have to be incompatible that Mary is by God exalted in such manner, despite remaining always a creature?! Why? You say she’s no longer Jesus’ mother? But do you listen to yourself? So what is it? Jesus just forgot she’s His mother? She was simply a container and a tutor and that’s it? Do you think God thinks the way you do?!?!?
You need to stop thinking that we’re taking the spotlight away from Jesus! We ARE NOT! Doesn’t He say “”Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” Mt 5:16?!?! (He says WORKS by the way!) He says that by seeing holy creatures, their Creator gets praised. This happens first and foremost with Mary! Jesus never puts her down, neither at Canaa nor when they tell Him that she’s waiting outside or that she was blessed for having breast fed Him. He always replies in the same way: Blessed are those who do the will of my Father! Who better than Mary?!!? “Be it done on to me according to thy word”!!!!
I’ve asked you to be reasonable, not to quote scripture in a blind spree and apply it in ways that are advantageous to your claims without taking full account of the things I quote! Reasonable means to analyze my position and give a respectful reply, not a dismissal full of contempt and indignation! I’ve done my best to take and consider your points reasonably and was happy to be challenged in my faith by them. That’s the best thing about apologetics. But you condemn Thomas. Beware of your ways because by the way you measure it shall be measure to you. That’s my personal advice. Then do as you please.
You also dodged my other observations. That is most disrespectful. Why don’t you answer the questions I ask you Thomas?
WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT WRITTEN WHICH BOOKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE BIBLE?! Sorry: CHANGE OF SUBJECT (so you don’t think I’m avoiding and dodging). Answer the question! WHERE and HOW did the early christians read their Bibles!?!? Answer!
Why does Paul tell Timothy that he should hold on to the TRADITIONS?!!?
St. Paul mentions tradition several times in his epistles, reminding both Timothy and the Thessalonians to stand fast to the traditions he taught them. In his Second Letter to Timothy, Paul wrote: “Take as a model of sound teaching what you have heard me say, in faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the rich deposit of faith with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (1:13-14). Later, in the same letter, he further instructs Timothy, “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2:1-2). It seems clear that the apostolic Tradition, the oral teaching of the apostles, was to be preserved and transmitted from generation to generation. St. Paul doesn’t write to Timothy and say, “This is all you need for salvation”; rather, he writes Timothy to entrust to other faithful men, who will be able to instruct others, what he preached, and Timothy heard, before many witnesses.
Oh and guess what? The famous passage where St. Paul states that Scripture is good to correct and so forth that you love and quote so much: he was talking about the OLD TESTAMENT because there was NO NEW TESTAMENT WRITTEN YET! Right?!?
So. You answer all these question TAKING ME SERIOUSLY and putting your bias aside for once and we can have an edifying confrontation. Otherwise save your time and occupation and busy yourself with something useful! Forgive my firmness, but I deem it necessary.
You keep on telling me that I do not answer your questions. The same accusation applies to you. Answer me a very simple question. Do you agree with the following statements?
This very clearly says that no one can be saved or redeemed but through Mary. It simply means that anyone who does not pray to Mary and asks her to obtain Mercy from Jesus on his/her behalf, is not saved.
Yes, of course Mary was the vessel God used to bring the Messiah into the world, but it doesn’t mean that she is the one by and through whom grace/salvation is dispensed to fallen mankind.
I close with this statement to which you gave no answer. And I am quoting from Dave Hunt’s book “A Woman Rides the Beast.”
This my friend, is your “2000 years of history and billions of people that share my Faith.” It is fraught with lies, deceit, inconsistencies, and anti-biblical and anti-God.
You have quoted to me wonderful verse such as Matthew 5:48 and 1 Peter 1:15 and I agree. However, wouldn’t you say that your infallible pontiffs ought to have been the vanguards in being holy and perfect? This is what really happened to your more than 2000 years of pristine tradition in your church. Again, I am quoting from “A Woman Rides the Beast.”
This is history my friend and you cannot deny it. 2000 years of pristine tradition? Is this what motivates you to pray to Mary? Really???
And with this I close my case. I refuse to engage you any further because you love it when the blind leads the blind.
Don’t even try to respond to this post for I will delete it immediately.
I haven’t read the entire point by point here yet, but it is such a relief to hear someone else say these things! I felt like I was alone among all my Christian friends who proclaim how great this story was (even CBN)! I bought the book, was troubled by it, and gave it to GoodWill! I probably should have burned it, in retrospect. Hooray for explaining the humans with “wings” in Heaven thing – that really bothered me! I felt other things were troubling too-including the father fighting in the Battle of Armagedon– it just seemed false.I did not think we joined in on that at all. But regardless, as much, as a woman, I would not mind letting others fight and me stay behind, it seemed very earthly thinking for the women and children to stay behind. We would all be just as able and strong – there is no male or female in Jesus Christ, so why would be not all fight? The only thing I would question in the presentation here-is the power from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit DOES give power-Acts 1:8 ►
New International Version
“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;” Now I know this was talking about the infilling back then, but the Holy Spirit has given me power to talk to others about Him, and the more I stay in the Lord’s presence, the more I feel this power. But this is a small point because the child was, I agree, used by Satan to spread a New Agey gospel message. One pastor who was interviewed on TV opposed the boy’s story based on the fact that he believed no one died, went to Heaven, and came back to tell about it. He had no other argument. I could not believe it!
T D Jakes is the money man behind this movie. If T D Jakes is part of it, I want nothing to do with it.
He is a name it and claim it prosperity preacher that is out of the pit of hell. Anything he is part of, followers of Christ should stay away from.
Yes, there are a lot of anti biblical parts of this supposed story.
You are all a bunch of very very very sad people. Seems you have been led astray just as the people you criticize. Judging and saying mean things about a child nonetheless. You have all this so called evidence from the bible as if that is the only way Jesus will look in heaven. Don’t you know that the evidence you are referencing was written by a man’s experience? So then what is the difference between what this kid saw and what John or Paul saw? Why don’t you stop putting this kid on trial and focus on helping, loving and saving others that are in need. Seems like a much better use of your time than criticizing a child. As you said, you have never been to heaven so you don’t know what it looks like. To this kid it was real, who’s to say it wasn’t.
You cannot help others to be saved when you dish up lies to them. It is the truth that sets people free, not lies.
Once God has given a revelation, as to the apostle John in the book of Revelation, there is no need to repeat that revelation. The only thing you need to do in order to know what heaven is like, is to read your Bible and in particular the book of Revelation. Extra biblical revelations cannot be trusted, especially when it comes from a child. Show me one incident in Scripture where a revelation was given to a child. There is none whatsoever.
Who would you rather obey – Jesus Christ or a child or a film on the revelation supposedly given to a child?
The only way to know for certain whether this kid is for real or not is to test everything he says against the written Word of God. We have shown you from the Bible that it isn’t. Once again, who are you going to believe – Jesus Christ or the kid?
As others have said previously, I don’t even know how to start. I stumbled upon your webpage as I was scouring the internet for a story illustration on criticism. That says something about your article.
You and many of those that have commented on here have clearly never sat down with the Burpo’s and talked with them personally about their story. In fact, it was down right shocking to me to read some of the comments almost dripping with hatred towards them. Wow – your Christian love is exemplary! I’m sure it is doing a lot to build the kingdom.
Well, I have sat down with the Burpo’s and heard their story. I do know them personally. The way you have characterized them as having some wicked agenda to twist Scripture is really just sad. The Burpo’s are simply an average American family whose son experienced something unexplainable.
Maybe it doesn’t fit into someone’s packaged theology. Many of the scriptures you cited you’ve twisted his comments to fit your viewpoint. I’m sorry, you will refuse to see it that way I’m sure, but it’s true.
The Burpos never set out to make money by telling this story. It was never their plan to be thrust out into the public eye in this way. Don’t you realize that the Thomas Nelson publishers did an extensive background check on this family before they pursued publishing their story?
I know I’m not going to change anyone’s mind here because most of you seem to be on a witch hunt against this family. I couldn’t believe the comment where you stated that Colton’s experience was demonic. Wow – yeah, many people back in the day would have said that about Martin Luther too. Just because we don’t understand something fully or it doesn’t fit into our understanding, does not make something demonic.
The fact is it’s pretty easy to stab someone in the eye on the internet where they have no chance of defending themselves. That sure takes courage!
I would advise you to seek the Lord about your attitude towards them and before you continue to spread your venom publicly against them in this manner, you consider attempting to sit down with Todd and Sonja and Colton and Cassie and Colby and hear their story straight from their mouths. Think about the hurtful comments you’ve slandered them with and whether you’ve honored God with your comments.
Well, I guess that’s all I will say. I’m sure you probably think I’m just one more duped person from their congregation or something. No, the fact is I’m a missionary. I’m a Bible believing follower of Jesus Christ. I have a solid, growing faith. I’m not interested in attacking people whose story doesn’t fit my experience. I’m more interested in exalting Jesus’s name and encouraging people to put their faith in Him alone for salvation (that Him includes all persons of the Trinity). I’m pretty sure that the Bible teaches us to not waste time in foolish arguments. I couldn’t sit by and say nothing though as I stumbled upon your words, since I know them personally. The Burpo’s too are interested in exalting Christ, not themselves, whether you choose to believe that or not.
You may have sat down with the Burpo family to listen to their story but it is quite obvious that you never bothered to test their story against the Word of God. Even the Bereans in acts 17 who were unbelievers had more discernment because they “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” If exhortation, warning, cautioning were all associated with hatred, then Jesus must have been full of hatred because He warned, “Take heed that no man deceive you.” (Matthew 24:4). In fact, failure to warn your fellowman when you see him or her saying and believing things contrary to Scripture, is NOT love. It borders on hatred because you don’t care a hoot what happens to them on their path of deceit.
Are you saying because a child had this experience it exonerates him from a possibility to be demoniacally inspired? Well, helloho! There are only two possible scenarios – it is either the truth which comes from God or a lie that comes from Satan (John 8:44). To illustrate one example is sufficient to prove to you that it is NOT of God. Many people claim to have been to heaven and back. Some of them had written books. The odd thing about these books is that none of them agree. Everything they say can’t be true because some of the content in one book contradicts what’s written in others. How do we know who is giving us an accurate and truthful account? Colton’s story cannot possibly be true because his claim that he left his body and saw his mom and dad pray for him is not biblical. He said, “he said, “I went up out of my body and I was looking down and I could see the doctor working on my body.” The Bible clearly says that when the spirit vacates the body death immediately takes place. You may argue that that was exactly what happened to Colton. Nevertheless, there was no medical report of a clinical death during Colton’s surgery.
Moreover, Colton claims that everyone in heaven looks like an angel, each one sporting his own wings, accept of course Jesus, is impossible because the resurrection of the deceased saints who are now in heaven hadn’t taken place yet and therefore their form lacks physical attributes. As a matter of fact, the saints won’t look like angels at their resurrection. They will have a body similar to that of Jesus.
Consider how Colton’s father mentioned that “the Bible is largely silent” on a certain issue. It is also completely silent on the specific things that Colton has revealed. This raises the question as to why God would leave out something of value for us in His inerrant Word, which was given through His prophets “as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter:1:21)–only to reveal it later through a little boy (as well as many others who make similar claims). On the back cover of the book we read, ” Heaven Is for Real will forever change the way you think of eternity, offering the chance to see, and believe, like a child.”
The Bible never tells us to defend ourselves or one another when we are dealing with the truth and lies. It tells us to defend the doctrines of God that were once delivered to us by the apostles.
I can assure you that your status as a missionary does not safeguard you against deception. If it did Jesus would never have warned you with these words “”Take heed that no man deceive you.” (Matthew 24:4). To exalt Jesus the biblical way is to evaluate all things. If we don’t, the Bible says, we are like children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14). We are advised to be spiritually mature.
None of us here doubt the Burpo’s sincerity and and their love for Jesus. What we are doing is to be obedient to Jesus Christ and his Word to test everything in the light of Scripture.
Whether or not one sits down with the Burpo family or not, is not the point. I am almost certain they are very nice human beings and would not hurt a fly or have any ill intention. The account of this 4 year old’s visit to heaven is what is being refuted as the writer of this article has more than proven that all this “stuff” Colton saw is not even Biblical.
It’s not a witch hunt against the family, or saying the family is not good or whatnot. Don’t forget, Satan is SUBTLE. So he (Satan) can use what seems to be perfectly good/innocent situation to draw people away from Christ which is what his (Satan’s) goal is. Go back to the beginning of Genesis 3 and read how the serpent deceived Eve and told her the tree of knowledge of good and evil was ok to eat from it – it even says Eve look at the tree and saw that it looked good for food and ate of it. BUT, God FORBID man to eat from this tree! – Man’s fall was a result of the subtlety and deception of the devil.
There are many so-called Christians out there, I would say a ton of NOMINAL Christians. How many really study the Bible and know the truth such as the writer of this article? I do, and agree with everything that is said here, I felt very bothered in my conscience when I watched this movie last night and regretted even going to see it (I only went cuz I had 2 free movie tickets and there was nothing else playing). Most so-called Christians are wandering in the wilderness so when a story or a movie like this comes out, they flock to it and view it as a ‘sign’ from God in the hopes of knowing what the future holds. What did Jesus say in the gospels? Matthew 12:39 “But He answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.”
Anyway, I don’t need to go on and on and my intent is not to argue, it doesn’t help and just spreads death which is what Satan wants. He wants people to argue and be confused and not enjoy Christ as life and unfortunately he does a very good job of it. I implore you to go before the Lord and his Word and see what your spirit & conscience tell you. Rainbow ponies, people with swords, wings out of humans, etc have nothing to do with Christ and are not recorded anywhere in the Bible, just like how Catholics worship Mary (a sinner) and have made up confession booths and all sorts of other things that are not Biblical. They’ve created MIXTURE, mixing Biblical truths with human invention which the Lord hates.
Lastly, I don’t think the writer of this article was trying to “attack” this family as you say, rather, they are standing by the Word of God and making a stand for the truth and God’s Word (which is God Himself (John 1:1), of which this 4 year old’s dream/imagination of visiting heaven has little to no Biblical truths behind it…
Hi, I agree with everything you said except this: “Anyway, I don’t need to go on and on and my intent is not to argue, it doesn’t help and just spreads death which is what Satan wants.” James wrote:
Contending for the faith is not arguing or spreading death. In fact, we are commanded to discern and warn those who have gone astray so that they may be saved from death to life.
Although I Myself, personally don’t believe every thing written in the book, I’d just want to point out, using the Scriptures some of the flaws of this article. And I CHALLENGE the author of the article to face his errors OR prove himself one of Satan’s minions. One of the things he wrote was: The Holy Spirit does not give you power either. This IS false. TRUTH, Yeshua Himself tells us: But you shall receive POWER, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:8) (2) does God have wings? No He does not. Again another LIE. Now, whether one understands these quoted passages literal OR symbolical, the FACT clearly tells us that God HAS and it’d only take a PHARISEE (who think they know BETTER than the written Word) to SAY God does NOT. May the LORD repay you for what You have done. May you be richly rewarded by the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to take refuge.” (Ruth 2:12) How priceless is your unfailing love, O God! People take refuge in the shadow of Your WINGS. (Psalms 36:7) To the choirmaster: according to Do Not Destroy. A Miktam of David, when he fled from Saul, in the cave. Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me, for in You my soul takes refuge; in the shadow of Your WINGS I will take refuge, till the storms of destruction pass by. (Psalms 57:1) He will cover you with His feathers,and under His WINGS you will find refuge;His faithfulness will be Your shield and rampart. (Psalms 91:4) The writer of this article should’ve AT LEAST pointed out that there are particular passages in the Bible saying GOD has Wings but are to be understood figuratively, — but, did he? So, since he didn’t, that would be the SAME as saying that Yeshua is NOT A Lamb (to be taken figuratively, of course) eventhough The Bible, (handed over from The East, btw NOT the West) says He is. (John 1:29 & Revelations 5:12 ) So then, since ALL Scripture are profitable for CORRECTION (2 Tim.3:16) … lets see how the author of this article REACTS. IF he justifies and defends his erroneous beliefs, that means he hates correction and WHOEVER hates correction … is STUPID. (Proverbs 12:1) And the same is true with Others. PERIOD.
You should know there is a great difference between saying “Everybody’s got wings” (p. 72) and the biblical usage of a metaphor to describe God’s protective powers. The writer of this article understands figurative speech in the Bible perfectly well. But you don’t seem to understand the absolute statement “Everybody’s (including God) got wings.” God’s revelations to man in the Bible has always been 100% accurate. There is no room for error. One percent of error would make God a false prophet and what does the Bible say about false prophets? “But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.” (Deu 18:20). And yet you are quite prepared to defend the book when you yourself admit that you don’t agree with everything written in it. If the book is a revelation from God Himself, then it must be 100% accurate because God is not a liar. Is it 100% accurate? You are overhasty to correct the author of this article but not so keen to correct the author of the book who fails to portray heaven 100% accurately. The only reliable book that portrays heaven 100% is the Bible but you are not satisfied with God’s Word and must therefore also rely on a book which, as you said, is not altogether reliable. You are the one who needs correction, my friend.
Concerning the power of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 18 Jesus was speaking to the disciples BEFORE the Holy Spirit was poured out on them to give them power to be his witnesses. There is no need for the Holy Spirit to shoot down power from heaven upon every true child of God whenever he preaches or witnesses to others. The indwelling Spirit of God in each saint gives him or her the power and NOT a SHOT from heaven. The power comes form within where the Holy Spirit dwells in the innermost part of the saint and not from without through a miraculous shot from heaven. The devil works from without and infuses his power inwardly and not the Holy Spirit of God. He works from within outwardly, not the other way around. Colton’s rendering of the Holy Spirit shooting down power from heaven suggests that there are multitudes of his outpourings. That’s not true.
Come Again, Mr. Thomas? Well, let’s put it on the reverse. Since YOU don’t agree with the book, does that ALSO mean that you should DISAGREE with EVERYTHING the Author believes in- – INCLUDING GOD? See? Your big but NARROW mind seems to be telling Me (in an indirect way) that My statement isnt plausible since IF I believe in the book, I should (or at least) I’m forced to believe in ALL. You see the fault in your logic? You believe in the Bible, do you? Then WHY not believe ALL the versions including the “new-age” translations? And just because you’ve taken an excerpt from one Christian Page, that DOESN’T necessarily mean you adhere to ALL it’s beliefs. ← Well, haven’t you read that DISCLAIMER from others many times before? It’s quiet sad to know that sometimes a fish is caught in his own mouth and sadly, the proverb applies to you. So think before you respond lest you be exposed of your ignorance.
As for the “shooting” from The Spirit. Well, that’s a LITTLE child’s description. What do you expect from a FOUR -year old? Reason like a THEOLOGIAN? You know what? I believe you Self – righteous theologians just like the chief priests and Pharisees (Mt. 27:18) are just acting out of jealousy BECAUSE IT WASN’T YOUR KIDS whom The Lord chose to reveal Heaven OR if they had been, you’d FEEL the same way as Todd OR, on the negative side, they’ ll have to pass your DOGMATIC screening or else they may (and I hope not) get thrown out of your synagogues — excuse Me, houses, rather. Grow up little Thomas, don’t worry, there are more than 7 BILLION people on the planet and I’m pretty sure you can get some, if not MOST of them to BUY your book, instead of Todd’s. Ah, religion, politics and money — they just seem soo inseparable, aren’t they? Peace. 😀
And for the Mary thing. I’d be brief. As a NON- Catholic Christian, don’t we all respect Miriam (aka) Mary? Though we don’t worship Her like the Catholics since 1 Tim. 2:5 says there is One Mediator between GOD and man, The Man Christ, Jesus — we show Her an amount of respect for She is blessed among women (Lk.1:42) but it seems as IF Elizabeth knows how to respect her better than WE do, don’t she? Just where in the Book does it say, Mary commands us to pray the Rosary? Please tell Me. And WHY should we be surprised IF Todd’s Son saw Her in Heaven? Do we believe the REAL Mary is in Hell? We openly profess we although we DON’T worship Her, RESPECT Her. Now, what SORT of hypocritical and insincere statement is that, if we are so choleric in having Her Name mentioned in ANY others Heavenly Visions? It’s all about the REAL Mary and NOT the Pagan Worship of the Pagan Queen of Heaven! Am I smelling misogyny here? . At your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir . (Ps.45:9) –
That’s the very reason why God never used little four year olds as prophets in the Bible to describe what He and heaven looks like.
If you want to base your faith on what little four year old boy tells you he supposedly saw when he was supposedly in heaven, is your choice. By all means go ahead but don’t bother to write a comment here again. You are not welcome. I don’t like your attitude. Any comments you make again in this attitude will be summarily deleted.
Open your eyes and read what the article said about Mary.
Mary still sees herself as Christ’s mom While Paul says we no longer know Jesus after the flesh? (2 Corinthians 5:16). Yes, the real biblical Mary (and not the Catholic Mary) is in heaven and she no longer knows Him after the flesh as her son. He is the Son of the living God and has always been so for all eternity past. I am not a misogynist who hates women but I do hate a demon who manifests itself in the form of Mother Mary (the Catholic Mary). If you are a real Christian you should hate and loath that demon as much as God hates it.
Psalm 45 is a royal Psalm and is merely a report of the counsel given to the bride before she was brought to the king’s palace in all her glory. In any case the bride in this Psalm is NOT a description of Mary standing next to Jesus. It depicts the Bride of Christ (all the believers) who are now being prepared for the Rapture and the subsequent royal wedding in heaven when Jesus comes to gather his Bride to Him.
Your comments won’t be placed until you have learned how to behave like a civilized Christian. You accuse us of taking Scripture out of context without explaining how we have taken it out of context. You have heard the word “context” somewhere but don’t seem to know what it means. Would you please put it into context for us?
This is really sad. You obviously have a vast knowledge of God’s Word. Yet you spend so much time and energy to tear apart what others are doing for good. If I wanted to I could pick apart with a fine comb your every word and I’m sure I could find verses that would appear to disagree with you in some way and try to discredit you with them. You are very negative and I believe a very paranoid and miserable person. From reading your comments I would guess that you probably don’t show a lot of outwardly manifested joy and you probably don’t smile that much either. You are a spiritual bully. You are honestly taking the words and visual interpretations of a four year old and ripping them to shreds as if you were speaking about a grown politician who was knowingly deceiving his constituents for his own personal gain. All you are accomplishing with your negativity is placing seeds of doubt in the hearts of other believers and causing them to question every other Christian that says anything at all about God or the Bible the way you do. You cause others to be as negative and miserable finger-pointers, critical of others every word and action as you also do. Your zeal is incredible but very much so displaced. You are one who has great knowledge yet lacking any wisdom to go with all of that knowledge. That is a dangerous combination and as you speak with such boldness about how subtle Satan is and how many ways he can use the unsuspecting to do his bidding; all the while Satan’s negative, nit-picking, defeatist influences are saturated all through every over-critical comment and judgement you write. I pray that if you really do love the Lord truly with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself, that you will allow God to open your eyes and understanding to the truest interpretation of all of these verses that you know so well on the surface but lack the deeper meanings and the spirit in which they were written. Personally I doubt you even know what that really means. I’m guessing that you probably score very high on Intelligence tests and you probably have a couple of degrees to go with it. You are like one of the teachers of the law all too ready to stone to death the woman caught in adultery, and the Lord responded to them that whoever among them was without sin in their lives could be the first to cast a stone at her. They didn’t recognize the Messiah because they were blinded by their own ignorance to the Spirit of God’s Love because of the evil intention of their own hearts. They reaped too much joy and satisfaction from pointing out the faults of other by flaunting their vast knowledge of the Law. These were the ones who Jesus spent His own time and energy to tear apart publicly any chance he got the same way you are doing here to the account of a four year old boy. I ask you this question: If Jesus were here now would you recognize your Messiah? And who do you think He would take the time to scold because of their misuse of God’s Word and of their own power? Do you think He would come and stand with you and support what you are doing here? Or do you think that maybe you would be the one that would be corrected because your heart has been so corrupted? The fact that the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees din’t repent to Jesus on the spot for their evil hearts proves that they didn’t really even know God in the first place, they were a bunch of fakes, full of their own pride, right down to their bones. The fact that they were so knowledgeable didn’t help them, in fact it only made them more guilty because it revealed the extent of their hypocrisy. Maybe you will find your way to a spiritual adviser who has the knowledge and the wisdom to counsel you and help you overcome your issues of bitterness and anger that make you such a miserable person. As Christians we are supposed to stand apart from the world. Paul said he would rather be wronged than to take a brother to court for the world to see because that kind of division had no place among brothers. He also despised those who spent their time back-biting and finger pointing who were NOT acting in the Love of Christ. The attitudes of these people were like a cancer that spread and could destroy an entire congregation. When I read your article I don’t see anything that causes you to stand apart from the sinful world. I see a show-off and a know-it-all. I see lots of knowledge with no wisdom to go with it. I see others being roasted; needlessly put-down and their every word being picked apart. I don’t see encouraging words or positive responses in the spirit of love, instead I see negativity and harshness from someone who probably very rarely ever admits that they are ever wrong. Your words read more like a typical article that one might find in any secular magazine or hear on a gossip magazine tv show. The love of Christ isn’t shining brightly in your heart causing you to stand apart from the world, instead you act and sound just like those whose lives couldn’t be further from salvation. I don’t see a light to illuminate anybody’s path here, I just see darkness and dreariness that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. It’s all petty and very unbecoming of anyone claiming the cross of Christ as their salvation. I guess some people believe that once they’re covered by the forgiveness of God through repentance, that they can just do or say whatever they want and it doesn’t matter. Like I said, very sad.
Do you realize that you are doing exactly what you are accusing us of?
We actually encourage people to disprove our posts and comments from the Word of God. Please do so because it is the correct thing to do. Or can’t you find any verses to refute us?
Yes, and Satan also does whatever he wants and speaks anyway he wants to anybody. That is why you must make 100% sure who is speaking.
God sent his Holy Spirit to speak whatever He is told to speak and NOT whatever He wants to anybody.
You seem to be one of those who just adore it when someone misleads you.
I for one have had a vision of the throne room of God and it does go along with the Bible!
As for Jesse Duplantis, people, who can say or not say if he went to heaven or not. How about this? When all were meant to go get to heaven are there, and you don’t see Jesse (that’s if any of you make it), then it may have been false, same with colton and his family. But either way it won’t really matter because we all will not remember any of this and we won’t need to, we will be content in heaven. The END!
Dora Crystal Solis,
I like the “Solis” in your name. It reminds me of “Sola Scriptura” which means the “written Word alone.” The Bible as we have it today is a closed cannon. In other words we no longer need to rely on visions and dreams to understand God’s revelations.
In the Old Testament God spoke through his prophets in different ways, for instance through dreams and visions but now He is speaking though his Son who is seated at the right hand of God. His sitting down at the right hand of God means that He has accomplished everything that is necessary for us to know and understand God’s revelation. And indeed, it was Jesus Himself who revealed to John in Revelation all that is necessary for us to know about heaven and hell. No one needs to receive visions, and dreams or even travel to heaven or hell to know what it looks like. God’s revelation in the Bible is sufficient. The main reason why people want to receive visions and dreams is becausde they are either too lazy to read the Bible or they don’t trust it as God’s Word. Peter, together with John and James, were given one of the most wonderful visions ever on the mount of transfiguration. Yet he wrote:
If any vision people receive today – including those children supposedly receive – is not in harmony with Paul’s vision of heaven then we must reject it outright.
And that is precisely why God never used a child in either the old or new testament to reveal to man his oracles and rather used adults.
Scarlette Nestor wrote:
You are accusing us of things you are doing yourself, and that is to take the things in the Bible out of context. The prophecy in Joel 2 was fulfilled at Pentecost (Acts 2:17 ) when the Spirit of God was poured out on flesh. And by the way, even if it had referred to our times as well, Joel and Peter do not say that they will travel to heaven and hell and back to tell us what it’s like.
Scarlette Nestor also says:
REALLY??? Jesus Himself said:
The word for “know” in the Greek is “ginosko” and means to understand or have knowledge of someone or something.
Joe reposted what Suzie wrote (I don’t know whether Joe agrees with her).
Susie, you don’t believe in compromising the truth in the name of tolerance but you do like it when people misrepresent the truth in the Bible. How does that work for you? When you go on your knees tonight tell Jesus that you don’t agree with his admonishment that we should take heed that no one misleads us (Matthew 24:4).
How on earth are you going to present people with the truth without exposing the lie?
I am sure you will agree that the unfruitful works of the devil do not always look that bad and even may look good and scrumptious to eat. Have you forgotten what Paul wrote?
The reason why you and others are castigating the author of this article is because she dared to refute a little boy. Listen up, the child abuse in this instance does not come from the author who is trying to warn you against error. The child abuse comes from his parents and your side who willfully and maliciously refuse to correct him and to protect him against the wiles of the devil. In stead of helping him understand that his experience does not harmonize with God’s word, they willfully ignore God’s warnings not to be misled. Why? Well, of course to make a stack of money. TD Jakes, the producers of the movie “Heaven is for Real” and Colton’s parents are making a lot of money at the expense of their own son’s spiritual welfare. They are the ones who are abusing Colton, not us. What does the Bible say?
His own parents, TD Jakes and anyone else who believes what the book and the film purports to describe what heaven looks like are causing Colton to commit the sin of deception. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes when we meet up with Jesus Christ one day at his judgment seat.
Ask yourself whether you are emanating God’s love when you go against and misrepresent God’s Word. You said:
This is horrendously contrary to what Jesus taught. He said:
Please note his words “as the Scripture has said.” You cannot claim to believe and be saved if you do not believe as the Scripture says.
Furthermore, Paul says in Ephesians there is only one Lord, one faith and one baptism (Eph 4:5). There is no such thing as different faiths in the Christian religion where one believes slightly different than the other. If the entire body of Christ does not believe exactly as Paul says in Ephesians then we have a problem. Therefore your accusation “Just another website filled with people who hate anyone who doesn’t believe exactly like they do” is absol;utely anti-biblical and anti-Christ.
How sad…I’m sorry for those of you who choose not to believe Don Piper, 90 minutes in heaven and Colton in Heaven is for Real. That little yellow book has opened doors for me to witness to many people. I have met and heard Don Piper in person…in an auditorium of several thousand people. When he spoke of heaven you could have heard a pin drop…no babies made a sound, no one coughed….no sound but his voice…it was awesome. Sometimes you just need to have faith that in these last days Jesus loves us and is giving us true gifts.
Why did God forbid Paul to say a single word of what he had seen and heard when he was in the Third Heaven?
Thank God, Paul obeyed Him and refused to tell anybody about his ecstatic experience in heaven. But wasn’t he being stupid? Think of it. He could have written a book and sold more than 4 to 6 millions copies (like Don Piper and Colton Burpo) and become very rich. Poor Paul, his obedience to God robbed him of thousands and maybe even millions of denarii.
I have always thought it was Christ’s suffering, death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead depicted in God’s Word that is supposed to give Christians a wonderful opportunity and open doors to witness to people. Now I hear it is the experience of a man who had written a little yellow book that has that capacity in stead of the Bible. I suppose you will also now say the following of the little yellow book.
A blogger advises Christians as follows:
you guys gotta be kidding. dont have better things to do than speak death and unrighteous judgements? I’m telling you … repent and be saved. you better be careful with all that blasphemy. hypocrites.
You must be one of those immature Christians who believes that your words have creative powers. You don’t seem to love Jesus because you refuse to obey Him who said:
Venerate is another word for worship.
Verb 1. venerate – regard with feelings of respect and reverencevenerate – regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; “Fear God as your father”; “We venerate genius”
reverence, revere, fear
esteem, respect, value, prise, prize – regard highly; think much of; “I respect his judgement”; “We prize his creativity”
saint, enshrine – hold sacred
worship- show devotion to (a deity); “Many Hindus worship Shiva”
Very informative write-up with the exception of #14.
The idea of the church being removed from earth before Daniel’s 70th week is a myth. Nowhere in Scripture is the entire 7 years known as “the tribulation.” The blessed hope is not the rapture but the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ. And even according to those who believe in the pre-trib rapture, Christ does not appear at the rapture, it’s a secret event. In Scripture, He appears only when He returns near the end of the 7 years, after the Beginning of Sorrows, after the Great Tribulation, and before the wrath of God which are the 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials. And since Titus tells us to look for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, we are still here to see it (but of course we won’t be here for the wrath of God which immediately follows.
a Post-Trib rapture (coinciding with the Second Advent of Christ prior to his millennial reign on earth) is a non sequitur. Who is going to be raptured after the 7 years tribulation period?
How do you reconcile the above with God’s promise in Revelation 3:10?
In any case, the Rapture which is assocaited mainly with the Gentiles (“until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in”) cannot possibly relate to the beginning, the middle or the end of the 7 years tribulation because it is mainly a Jewish event. That’s why Jeremiah calls it the time of Jacob’s trouble. (Jereemiah 30:7).
The fact that the Rapure is a secret does not mean that Christ will be absent when it accurs. It simply means that no one knows when it will occur.
How can you possibly say that Jesus won’t appear at one of the most important events in the entire history of mankind?
This is NOT the Second Coming of Christ at the end of the 7 years tribulation. It is the Pre-Trib Rapture. There are several disctinct differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming which I cannot discuss with you now.
The Rapture? Seriously? I think the only support for this hogwash is one line in the bible about being “…caught up in the air.” Beyond that? No real mention of anything like the Rapture. Why can’t other people make stuff up too?
If you told me you were saved, I too probably would say “hogwash!” I am not saying that belief in the Rapture equals salvation. I am saying that no Christian in his right mind would call one of the most important doctrines in Scripture “hogwash.” Are you saved?
Okay, one thing that continues to bother me about these Near Death Experiences, is how these people claim to witness dead and deceased people. Does not the Bible say Necromancy is totally forbidden. This just appears to be yet another form of communicating with the dead. If looked into, the NDE is very occult based and not Biblical!
Humans wrote the Bible brother. They wrote in it this is the word of God and it was said in it that it had to be followed. You interpret it quite literally that hell is where you go if you do not believe it word for word. You have faith in it which is arbitrarily thrown on it because you grew up that way, and you have faith in the protestant guy who interpreted God’s word as so. Which is really just his opinion. I read a New Age book that stated that enlightened being from a distant star system inspired the book, and if you didn’t believe it you would struggle. Kind of similar if you replace “God” with “enlightened space being.” You would throw it into the fire. You just don’t want to think because you view it as dangerous. You avoid the truth because you are afraid of suffering and doubt. The Bible holds many truths though, at least for me. I am not saying faith is bad, you must have faith in something or you can slip into nihilism. You must have faith even in science and reason if you chose that route. You have found a way to avoid any view that challenges your own. You write what you believe is right, I write what I believe is right. So what I write is pointless to you probably. Anyone can argue any point of view. If you throw away logic for faith, you must also throw away conceptual discourse (thoughts) as they proceed from logical sequence. And if you mash logic with faith, they contradict often. The Bible often contradicts. But what I am saying is, God works in mysterious ways. And a lot of times I use my intuition as to what His will is. And my intuition says write this.
jackson m wrote:
You are on very shaky ground if you trust your intuition. let me tell you why.
What you write is not pointless because I think so. What you write is pointless and extremely foolish because God’s Word says so.
Your intuition is going to come to an end; God’s Word is eternal.
If I don’t follow my heart, how can I have faith? How can I love?
If someone who is not of your faith says, “I love you”, do you say in return , “Begone, Satan?”. As they are not basing their decisions using literal interpretation of scripture, they must be controlled by Satan and are trying to sway your opinion. Also, if you say, “I am hungry”, and the buddhist / muslim/ catholic next to you says, “you should eat”, would you question your decision to eat? Please tell me if I do not understand.
But honestly, if you feel spiritually fulfilled you need not listen to me. Just expect people to oppose you when you challenge their views.
I guess why this thread interested me is that I do have strange dreams / feelings / visions etc. I used to think this was mental illness, I would be paranoid about reality and what to believe. My doctor would give me anti psychotic medication and this would usually just make me feel worse. When I started to believe that I was not crazy, that these feelings were not just crap I had to deal with and they could have a positive outcome, I felt great. Because if you believe you are crazy, you must believe that everything you think and experience could also be crazy. Music was very powerful, ideas about God and spirituality made more sense. So I guess what I am saying is, if believing a vision you had opens you up to the idea that Jesus is real and that he really did die for our sins and saves you from suicidal ideation, I cannot see how Satan orchestrated this.
An unbeliever cannot express godly love. So when someone who is not of the Christian faith says to you “I love” you, he cannot love you for the sake of or in the Name of Jesus Christ. The love of a Christian has one thing in mind and that is to present the Gospel to as many people as he can so that they may be saved. Are you saved?
To follow Christ Jesus is what God has in mind for you and not to follow your heart which is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
Visions and dreams had there role to play in the Old Testement when the Bible was not yet completed. Now that we have the complete revelation of God within the confines of 66 books, we do not need visions and dreams. That’s why God says:
The Bible is God’s love letter to you so that you may know He loves you very much and does not want you to perish.
By not addressing all of my points, by not appealing to any sort of positive emotion, by telling me the only love there is is telling people they are damned if they do not follow you, you have, somehow, won this argument. Unless you lived back then and could read aramaic and hebrew, you must know that the Bible has been through translation, which does not preserve all of the intended meaning. The fact is, the early Christians did not write the Bible for many years and the stories passed through by word of mouth. But this could be Satan too. I will not be posting anything more. Yes, I do forfeit my two cents.
People who are not completely terrified of hell just have to realize that you are going to be an annoyance and a burden.
I do hope the best for you. Oh this has no meaning to you I forgot.
I too hope the very best for you which to me is that you come to Jesus Christ for your salvation.
You said this :
“Now that we have the complete revelation of God within the confines of 66 books, we do not need visions and dreams ”
If that so, what about this verse :
‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.’
You should learn to read your Bible in context. The disciples were accused of being drunk. Then Peter said “For these are not drunken, as ye suppose” . . . “THIS (the things that happened on the Day of Pentecost) is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (Acts 2:17). In other words, it was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. What about verses 19 to 20. How does that fit in with verse 17?
So you’re saying that those verses ONLY fulfilled in the day of pentecost? So because it’s already fulfilled then there will be no repeat of God pour out His Spirit on all people that live in these modern day, thus there should be no one who receive dreams and visions. Is this your conclusion?
The Spirit was poured out ONCE on the Day of Pentecost. He won’t be poured out again.
So because of that, there will be no one who receive dreams and visions again after Pentecost?
Do you have a Bible? I assume you have one. Well, if you have one, why do you need to rely on dreams and visions for your faith and spiritual growth.
I asked you what about Acts 2 verses 19 and 20? Do they also belong to verse 17? You haven’t answered me.
TBC wrote the following:
You said this :
“Well, if you have one, why do you need to rely on dreams and visions for your faith and spiritual growth. – ”
Can you show me when did I ever written that I rely on dreams and visions for my spiritual growth? I never wrote that I rely on dreams and visions for my spiritual growth. Aren’t you too hasty to make a conclusion? Aren’t you judging someone because of what he hasn’t written, but only because of your own conclusions?
I will answer your question after you answer mine. You also haven’t answered my question, your answer is somewhat vague, that’s why I want a clear answer.
Again I ask this :
1. So you’re saying that those verses ONLY fulfilled in the day of pentecost? So because it’s already fulfilled then there will be no repeat of God pour out His Spirit on all people that live in these modern day, thus there should be no one who receive dreams and visions. Is this your conclusion?
2. So because of that, there will be no one who receive dreams and visions again after Pentecost?
You can answer those 2 questions with Yes or No, and you can back up your Yes or No with your reasons. But I want your clear Yes/No about those questions.
Well, if visions and dreams have no bearing on your spiritual growth what purpose do they serve, especially when everything you need to know for your spiritual growth is in the Bible?
I said that Joel 2 was fulfilled at Pentecost on the basis of Peter’s words in Acts 2: “For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But THIS is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (Act 2:15-16).
Visions and dreams do occur. However, as I have indicated from TBC’s articles, they do not come from God. They cannot come from God because He says:
Everything the Son wants us to know is contained in the Bible. Why do you insist that the Spirit of God must again be poured out on all flesh? It is already a fait accompli.
Have you had any visions and dreams that enhance God’s Word or have revealed something to you that is not in the Bible?
Again, I never say that visions and dreams have no bearing over my spiritual growth. I simply said that I don’t rely on visions and dreams for my spiritual growth. These are different things.
So based on your opinion, you’re saying that Act 2:17 that says that :
1. God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh,
2. Young men shall see visions, old men shall dream dreams
are already fulfilled at the Day of Pentecost, and therefore wouldn’t happened again in these modern day. And also visions and dreams have ceased since we have the complete written Word of God in 66 books, am I correct?
If that’s what happened, then :
1. Why Peter saw vision in Act 10:9-16, Paul saw vision about Macedonian in Act 16:9, John saw visions at Patmos island, this events were happened far after the Pentecost.
2. Why the Bible says, “In the last days”, not “In the last day”. Why using plural and not singular? If Act 2:17 meant to be fulfilled only at the Day of Pentecost, the Bible should say, “In the last day”, since it was meant to be fulfilled ONLY at the Day of Pentecost. But the Bible says “In the last days”, so it must mean that there will be many days in which these events will take place. It isn’t meant to be limited to be happened only at the Day of Pentecost. It’s like a time span, from the Day of Pentecost until today, it can be included as “the last days”.
3. Are there any scriptures that says that visions and dreams will stop the day we got a complete written Word of God in 66 books? If there are none, aren’t you basing your opinion not on the scripture but based on your own conclusions?
As for the story that you quoted from TBC, I can say that it wasn’t from God because it contradicts the Bible. The bible clearly said that the dead cannot communicate with the living. But this doesn’t mean that we should generalize every dreams/visions not to be from God. We should look case by case and test it whether it contradicts the Bible or not.
Hebrew 1:1-2 that you quoted didn’t say that “God doesn’t speak to us by the prophets again but ONLY by His Son”. Those verses simply say that while in the past God spoke through the prophets, in these last days God has spoke to us through His Son. It can mean that God speak to us through the prophets AND through His Son too. So this verses can’t be used to judge that any visions/dreams are not from God.
And I had never have any visions and dreams. But I don’t hastily say that anyone who has visions/dreams are not from God.
If visions and dreams do have a bearing on your spiritual growth, then by all means pursue visions and dreams. But then you will have to make a dicision. Are you going to rely on the Word of God which “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue” (2 Pe 1:3), or are you going to rely on on visions and dreams instead?
When Peter received a vision from God the Bible had not been written in its entirety yet. Peter was still engrossed in Old Testament Jewish beliefs that they were superior to the Gentiles. God had to teach him a lesson. Don’t think that everything that is written in the Bible needs to be emulated or is an example of what Christians ought to do today. King David was a man after God’s own heart and committed adultery and murder. Are you going to emulate him because it is written in the Bible?
Paul was given a vision because he forgot his laptop at home and was unable to communicate with someone in Macedonia. John was given visions of the last days on the island of Patmos for the very same reason. What makes you think your visions and dreams are going to enhance John’s last days visions? I am being sarcastic because I am trying to get through to you but nothing seems to help. Everything God wanted to say in visions and dreams to Peter, Paul and John are now in the Bible and all you have to do is to read your Bible and to believe it. You seem to think that you must believe your visions and dreams as much as you do your Bible. That’s very dangerous, as Col;ton Burpo’s experience clearly demonstrates. Deborah, the author of the article, has meticulously shown you how many deceptive and unbiblical things are in his experience and still you prefer to listen to him and his parents instead of in God’s Word.
Look, I don’t have the time to answer all your accusations that TBC is wrong and that my interpretation of Hebrews is also wrong. But let me say something about your TBC attack. That’s precisely why people are forbidden to try and communicate with the dead because, as you said, the dead cannot communicate with the living, and because demons are masquerading as their family members they are in fact communicating with the devil and his demons. With a single stroke of the brush you have proved that Colton’s experience was not of God but of the devil and his demons.
You are lying to say you’ve never had a dream.
This is the same with my 3rd questions. Where in the Bible that says that vision must stop to exist the day this scripture written in entirety? If there are none, then how can you boldly say something like that? Also, how do you know that the Bible that we have now is complete? That it has been written in its entirety? Is it because of men’s council, or is it from the scripture?
Again, I think you love to believe that I had visions and dreams and believe them, when in fact I don’t. You also make a judgment that I prefer to listen to Colton and his parents, when in fact, I even haven’t read that book. How can you make that quick judgement? Is it because I don’t believe that visions and dreams are ceased today?
Because of that you make a far jump in your assumptions that I must be following Colton and his parents? Wow…you are too quick to make an assumptions and judgements
I also don’t accuse that TBC is wrong. I said the STORY, the experience of having someone who was already dead coming to you is the wrong one, not the TBC. What I’m trying to say is, you can’t make that one TBC’s article as a general reference to decide that dreams must be from devil. You need to test them first, see them case by case.
Okay, I got your point on this. But what I mean is not ordinary dreams, but dreams that I relied upon for my spiritual growth. I mean, come on, of course everybody ever have a dream when they sleep. But because we speak dreams in the context of dreams that making someone got a vision about the future, or dreams about spiritual being, etc..you know what I mean right? That kind of dreams I never have. That’s why how many times I said I don’t rely on dreams and visions, but again, I don’t hastily say that someone who got dreams or visions must be got it from the devil because visions and dreams must stop to exist.
If you don’t have the time now, take your time until you can reply me. The questions number 2 and 3 also still haven’t been answered too.
You are treading om dangerous ground to think the Bible is not complete. In fact, those who think the Bible is not complete are usually those who think visions and dreams are given to either enhance or to fill in the alleged gaps in the Bible.
To believe that visions and dreams have not ceased is just another way of saying Colton Burpo’s experience could have come from God.
If you cannot see that I have answered your questions then there is no point in continuing this discussion.
About the completion of the Bible.
The verses that you were quoted didn’t indicate any of that, they just simply said that the scripture is inspired by God, but nothing in it that say that the Bible that we have now is complete. Therefore I want to ask which sources that make you believe that the Bible that we have now is complete? Is it from the Bible or from men? If it’s from the Bible please show me. But, okay, if you can’t state the Bible verse, then let’s assume that the Bible that we have now is complete. But still there are these questions
I still can’t see your answer for my question number 2, and you still haven’t state which Bible verse say that visions and dreams must stop the day the scripture written completely. If you can’t show the Bible verses for this, how can you decide that visions and dreams have ceased to exist today, and why did you dare to judge other people who have different conclusion with yours a false teacher? If you still can’t show the bible verse for this, then of course, there’s no point in continuing this discussion
What would you like to see added to the Bible to make it complete?
The very first verse in the Bible is ” In the beginning God . . .” and it ends with “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.” (Rev 22:18-21).
What more do you want?
How dare I . . .? First of all I did not judge the person or persons. I judged their teaching – their doctrines.
How dare I . . .? Secondly God commands me to judge.
1 Corinthians 2:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)
How dare I . . .? And finally because Jesus commanded us to be vigilant.
And with that I close my case. You remind me of this:
Bible’s verse that say that visions and dreams will stop the day the written Word of God is completed.
Sure you can judge if you have a strong evidence of verses. But since until now you still haven’t show the verses in the Bible that say that visions and dreams will stop the day the written Word of God is completed, then how can you judge? Because if you can’t show the verse to back up that statement, then anybody can say that you teach a false teaching 😉
And till now you still haven’t answered my 2nd question about the why “last days” and not “last day”
Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:
I’ve ready all your comments on this page, and although you are right and you make good Biblical points, but the way in which you are communicating is very negative. Even as I’m writing down this reply, I feel very scared of what kind of reply you would give me… but I feel like I had to say this to you. All your commentaries are filled with anger. I am especially distraught when I read your comments above to the Catholic friend Dario where you said “Don’t even try to respond to this post for I will delete it immediately.” That is so much hatred there. I can’t believe you shut him down like that in that way! Now, how can that person ever come to Christ! I think that was very unwise, and I am just so distraught, thinking that Catholic friend Dario, has left this chatroom with a negative perception of a witness for Christ. All the more reason Satan can use so that he will not come to know Christ. Yes, arguing and debating is fine, but what is more important than being an effective witness for Christ so that others will come to follow Him?
I am not saying that us Christians, should be all about love and all that modern beliefs about love love love.. But I can’t help feeling the hatred communicated from one brother to another brother, even if that brother does not agree with Biblical teachings, and even if that brother is an Unbeliever. I really hope you will change the way you do your apologetics and the way you communicate to other people (believers or non-believers). Because how can you share the gospel, and how can you be a light unto others, or how can you show that CHRIST lives within you, when all that people can see is hatred, irritation, defensiveness? I am not saying, when people state false, unbiblical things you should stay quiet or you should pretend you agree with them.. No, no one should be ashamed of God and of the truth, and the truth of God’s Word need to be spoken and proclaimed! However.. I’m sure you agree with me, that there is the “right way” of doing it! And the “Biblical” way of doing it! And I think the best example that we can follow is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, when he’s answering the pharisees (Remember, when HE didn’t even answer but HE just wrote on the sand? This is one example). We can also follow the apostle Paul’s example in his letters to the churches, where the letters are often filled with reproof sometimes for the believers, we can learn how he spoke to them with strictness and authority but also with Christ’s love. Proverbs is also filled wisdom on how we are to respond to people. (“A gentle answer turns away wrath, but harsh words stir up anger” Prov 15: 1) (“Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.” Prov 25:15) (“A person’s wisdom yields patience; it is to one’s glory to overlook an offense.Prov 19:11)
Finally, I highly recommend that you listen to Dr. Charles Stanley’s podcasts (intouch.org) He has been such a blessing to me and my family. He has podcasts titled “Victory over Anger”, “How to Treat the Unbeliever”, “Essentials of a Fruit Witness”, etc.. I just wrote several titles here that may be a blessing to you.
What is the Biblical way of doing things, to which you refer? Perhaps these?
I find it rather strange that you should judge my heart as being judgmental and full of hatred when you said nothing whatsoever about all the quotes I provided Dario to prove to him that the RCC is heretical. Moreover, the above quotes from Scripture do not sit well in the congregation of so-called “Christian Psychologists” such as Josh McDowell, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, and others who have all elevated the self-esteem god far above the throne of God in heaven.
I also doubt whether you would heed my warning that Charles Stanley’s teaching on self-esteem is as heretical and as dangerous as Roman Catholicism. Nonetheless, to quote Paul, “For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.”
I am not here to tickle your ears and those of others with niceties that lead to hell. I ended my conversation with Dario because he was adamant to listen, even after I had quoted to him all those things from the RCC’s history. Our discussion was heading nowhere and hence my abrupt statement, “Don’t even try to respond to this post for I will delete it immediately.” Why must I allow someone to promote his heresies on this site when there are so many young Christians who may be led astray by their heresies?
By the way, here’s another wonderful biblical way of doing things.
And by the way, these words were spoken by Jesus Himself. He was actually saying that anyone who causes young Chtistians to stumble, should be thrown in the depth of the sea where sins are thrown.
To say that whosoever leads astray young Christians should be cast into the depths of the sea where all sins are thrown, is not so kosher, is it? In fact, it is downright full of hatred, is it not? If I should say: Charles Stanley and his doctrines on self-esteem should be cast into the depths of the sea because he is leading many young Christians astray, you would probably immediately accuse me of being full of hatred. Do so by all means but then you should also accuse Jesus of being full of hatred for saying such an horrendous thing.
Remember, you cannot be a disciple of Jesus Christ if you love yourself.
Charles Stanley is teaching Christians not to obey Jesus Christ and not to follow Him as his disciples. I would rather call that being full of hatred because it teaches Christians to disobey Jesus’s doctrines and subsequently are leading many straight to hell. Is that what you want?
Well, why is my latest message didn’t show up here? Is it being moderated? Why?
If you can show me where in Scripture it says that John the Baptist’s baptism was from God or man, I will be happy to supply the verses you want me to quote. Note carefully, I want chapter and verse.
Why I should provide your request for that? I never said anything about John the Baptist’s baptism, so I don’t think it is relevant with what we discussed here.
While in your case, you should be able to answer my question, because you have already made a statement that visions and dreams stop the day the Bible is completed, and you judge people who teach otherwise to be a false teacher. So you should have the Bible’s verse as your foundation to say and judge so. If you cannot provide that then you shouldn’t judge people who have different opinion with you, that’s the problem here.
So, we shouldn’t discuss John the Baptist’s baptism just because you decide that it’s not appropriate to do so? I can only surmise what you would have told Jesus if you’d been among the Pharisees who asked Him “By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?” and He answered them with the rhetorical question “I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things, The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?” You would probably have said to Him from your haughty position of what we may discuss and what not, “Why should I provide your request for that? I never said anything about John the Baptist’s baptism, so I don’t think it is relevant with what we discussed here.”
You see, Jesus who very often asked rhetorical questions, wanted to get them to use their dull minds and find out for themselves where his authority came from. There is not a single verse in the Bible that tells us form whence John the Baptist’s baptism came from – not a single verse – and yet the answer to the question was quite obvious despite the fact that the baptism with which John baptized was called “John’s Baptism.” (Acts 19:3).
In the very same way – and despite the fact that there are no verses in Scripture that tell us outright that visions and dreams have ceased – it is obvious that visions and dreams are no longer required to add anything to the Bible which is complete. If God tells you, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Ti 3:16-17), then He is simply saying that everything that is necessary for man to live in accordance with God’s will can be found in the Bible and therefore we no longer need visions and dreams.
And stop bearing false witness by saying I am judging people. I told you I am judging their doctrines and not the people which you ought to do yourself. You have been judging me throughout our discussion.
” . . . and you judge people who teach otherwise to be a false teacher.”
No my friend, it is not I who am judging false teachers. Jesus Christ Himself judges them with these words:
I don’t think that this verse can be interpreted that way. Those verses are simply state the origin of the scripture (from God), and its functions (for doctrine, reproof, correction, etc), and its purpose (the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works) so that we could believe everything that was written in the scripture. Sure everything we need to live in accordance with God’s will can be found in the Bible, but it doesn’t mean that God have stopped giving visions and dreams.
What about the people who lived in a country who forbid the Bible, how they could know God and His will when they don’t have access with the Bible? What about people who lived in a very remote places, there were no people who reach out and handed out the Bible to them? God can gave them visions and dreams so that they might know Him, for example, He could give visions to some missionary to go to that remote places, or vice versa, He could give visions to those people who lived in a remote places or a country who forbid the Bible to go out of their places and meet someone who can teach them God’s truth. And you haven’t say anything about “the last days” question that I asked
Really? you told me that I answer you from haughty position, you told hadassa in the comment above of being immature Christian, aren’t that judging people and not their doctrine?
And about the Gal 1:8-9. Those who are accursed are the one who preach any other gospel. Now let’s define the word gospel. What is gospel? If we read that chapter and the chapter following I can assume that the gospel that Paul means is the news that Jesus Christ died on the cross, raised again and those who believe in Him will be saved. That salvation is obtained by confessing this fact, not because of following Jewish regulations. That salvation is obtained by the grace of God, not because of our good works. So I ask you, do the people who believe that visions and dreams still exist today preach another gospel? do they preach that to be saved we need to do some good works? If not, then according to the verse that you quoted here, Jesus Christ didn’t judge them.
Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:
Thomas, Sometimes it is sad to see illogical statements and insults bounce back and forth on this site. Generally simple answers have a greater impact than intricate rebuttals that are not understood. Bold print we are taught is “shouting on paper” – ask around. We can contend for the faith and the integrity of God’s word if we remember:
2 Timothy 2:22-26 (NIV)
22 Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
We are here to help the deceived and the unsaved, but we should also come alongside a brother without fear of being misunderstood.
“He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help.”
John Andrews UK/Ireland
Perhaps you would like to explain to Peter more about visions and dreams.
If they’ve never heard about Jesus, who told them about Satan? Idolatry is satanic. They never knew Jesus of whom they supposedly never heard but they knew Satan of whom they supposedly never heard of as well. How does that work for you?
They knew that God exists and instead of calling on Him to be saved (Acts 2:21), they worshiped idols. Listen to this
Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:
Thomas and Peter – you have discussed the Joel prophesy and did the two of you reach any conclusion of its context and for whom and when this is intended? Peter quotes this in Acts 2 – does this mean that the inception of the visions and dreams took effect then at Pentecost? Methinks not, and study into the Joel prophesy and Peter quoting it in Acts will I think convince us that Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come?
Paul’s prayer for the Ephesians: Eph 3:14–21
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
Show me someone obsessed with the Holy Spirit and I will show you a person not filled with the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is the person sought His work has been rejected and Christ is obscured, scripture depreciated and a preoccupation with counterfeit experiences is imagined to be induced by the Holy Spirit – but not having anything to do with Him at all.
We have the charismatics that are confusing themselves, but need we be confused or deceived by their chaos? They speak of Scripture as the “dead letter,” compared to their modern prophecies, which they believe are “fresh and living words” from God. So they have effectively subjugated Scripture to questionable phenomena.
Besides, why rely on visions and dreams and prophesies of some person as proof of Jesus’ work in the world, when their source cannot be 100% guaranteed? – and when the bible as source, can?
John Andrews UK/Ireland
Thanks John. You wrote,
“Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.” This seems to be the meaning of Joel 2:28. Do you mind if I asked you to elaborate a bit more with emphasis on “is yet to come.” I appreciate your valuable input.
Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:
Thomas – it not my intention to give an exhaustive answer to your argument with Peter: However I will try and be short whilst still giving a logical train of thought:
A starting point will be to look at the total dissimilarity between the day of Pentecost as in Acts 2 and Joel’s prophecy as in Joel 2:28-31 –
Acts 2:1-4, “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting and there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the holy ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”.
I think it would be helpful to list these events in order to felicitate a comparison with Joel 2.
1) “a rushing mighty wind”
2) “cloven tongues, like as of fire”
3) “filled with the holy ghost”
4) “began to speak in other tongues”
Then Joel’s prophecy:
Acts 2:17-18 is a record of Peter quoting the prophecy from Joel 2: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, ‘I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams. And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My spirit and they shall prophecy‘”.
Below is the list of things prophesied in the passage quoted from Joel.
1) “I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh“
2) “Your sons and daughters will prophesy”
3) “your young men will see visions“
4) “your old men shall dream dreams“
5) “My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My spirit and they shall prophecy“.
A quick comparison of the events of Acts 2 with the prophecy of Joel 2 will reveal that there is only one thing in common, i.e. the spirit of the Lord was poured out.
Some might object that Peter began his quote of Joel 2 by saying, “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel”. How can we account for that statement considering that it was certainly not what had been prophesied in Joel 2?
As the two events do not match it would be logical to say: Peter was saying in effect “that the same kind of thing as what Joel speaks of is happening now“.
So where does that leave us in following up – when should it be expected to happen (or have happened)? As we cannot find such an event in the past then it is “yet to come” would be logical?
In other words, the reason Peter quoted Joel was not because Joel’s prophecy was then being fulfilled or even “partially fulfilled”. The reason was to say that these men are not drunk and the men of Israel should know that because the same kind of things are spoken of by Joel.
But is there further evidence of the logic of this suggestion?
When Peter quoted Joel chapter 2, he began with saying, “And it shall come to pass in the last days“. Joel was more specific. In Joel 2:28, which is the beginning of the prophecy Peter quoted, we read, “And afterward I will pour out my spirit….”. Peter’s words, “the last days” is correct, but Joel is more specific as to when in the last days they might see the things quoted, i.e. dreams and visions. Let us therefore, examine Joel 2 to see if we might learn more about when to expect these signs.
Joel 2:1 begins with a prophecy concerning the “day of the Lord”. “for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand”. The prophecy concerning the day of the Lord continues through verse 11, But with verse 12 there is a break in the prophecy about the day of the Lord, and we read in verse 12, “Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to Me, with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping and with mourning”. This plea for repentance continues through verse 17. In verses 18-27 we read what will be the consequence of Israel’s repentance. We read in verse 26, “never again will My people be ashamed”. This tells us that these verses speak of the millennium.
Now to verse 28 which begins the passage that Peter quotes in Acts 2. “And afterward“. After what? Certainly not after the millennium which is the subject of the preceding 10 verses. We must go all the way back to verse 11 in order to determine the “afterward” of verse 28. Verse 11 speaks of the day of the Lord. So then, after the day of the Lord, the signs of which Joel writes will be seen.
So the signs of which Joel writes are to be seen after the day of the Lord. Therefore, when Peter quoted this passage it could not possibly have been fulfilled that day in Acts 2, because that day was obviously not after the day of the Lord.
Logically: The signs of which Joel writes are to be seen after the day of the Lord. When Peter quoted Joel the day of the Lord had not yet occurred. Therefore, Acts 2 cannot be the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
In conclusion the above is an explanation of why I wrote “Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come?” the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
2 Thessalonians 2 (NKJV)
The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
And we need to once again realize that this blog tries to warn about deception, lies, and false imaginations, dreams and visions that are not of God but of Satan’s deceptive band of purveyors of another gospel. Just reading 2 Thessalonians 2 is ample warning that deception is not a figment of discerning believers but a fact. Dreams and visions and other phenomena that the Pentecostals and charismatics cling to are akin to inviting Satan to spin a yarn (lie) to you and deceive you. That is why we contend for the faith so as to oppose the false teachers and false accounts of dreams, visions of heaven and the like. I know that there are sincere readers of this blog that have fallen into the hands of false teachers, but they need to ask themselves if they have been fed the truth, or are they in bondage (a slave) to a specific teacher or church?
I am a visitor on this blog and not part of the team who have an enormous volume of work answering a massive amount of comments. I only visit occasionally to keep up to date on the latest identified works of the apostasy and the charlatans and con artists that serve their own ego and greed.
Again I repeat: 2 Thess 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Dreams and visions? ………Mm -yes methinks so (except for the normal dreams that we do not “spiritualise”).
So, Thomas’ interpretation about Joel 2 was that it had been fulfilled at the Day of Pentecost, and John Andrews’ interpretation about Joel 2 was that it hasn’t fulfilled yet till now, it will be fulfilled after the day of the Lord
Am I correct?
And what do you mean about “The Day of the Lord”? Is it the second coming of Christ?
You have read correctly. I wonder why you ask me to confirm my stated view which I have weighed up against the other 2 possible interpretations.
I am not here to explain to you “The Day of the Lord” as we are drifting away from the point of believing imaginations that are unbiblical (some call them visions and dreams) and not plausible if you read them. This forum does not support speaking in tongues, prophecy as practiced by the Pentecostals and charismatics, healings by faith healers (Christians false teachers and others) and you sure would not then expect to have visions and dreams slip through? If perchance Thomas’ interpretation of Joel’s prophecy would be correct, then they would fall into the same category as speaking in tongues, healings and charismatic prophecy which have passed away.
Whether you interpret Joel’s prophecy as fulfilled, partially fulfilled or unfulfilled (yet to come) you are still left with a false teaching if you believe that you can take as fact the day trippers that have been to heaven and back. Their stories are ? dreams ? visions ? imaginations that have nothing to do with the truth (cannot be made to align with scripture). There are no day trips to heaven. The price of the book “Heaven is for real” is the price of your cheap day trip to heaven. This may however not be the only price you pay………..?
To clarify my previous post:
Dreams and visions? I said “yes” meaning that they are part of the false teaching brought by “the working of Satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved”
One of the “lying wonders” is the lie that dreams and visions today are given by God through the Holy Spirit.
Okay, thanks John Andrew for your reply.
I asked that because I want to confirm if I have assumed your stance and Thomas’ correctly. So now I know that the 2 of you have different interpretation about those Bible verses.
So now, I wonder, we have Bible as the ultimate truth, the ultimate source, but 2 people can have different interpretation about one verse in the Bible, I think this answer your statement here
. This statement was also raised by Thomas.
The bible is of course, can be guaranteed 100%. But the problem is, our interpretation can’t. What makes you think that your interpretation of the bible is the most correct one? or Thomas? or me? or any bible teachers out there?
Actually, the meaning of “The Day of The Lord” is necessary, because it still related to the verse that we discussed. Because this verse (Joel and Act) is the main reason why I and Thomas have so many discussion, for me this verse support my view that visions, dreams, prophecy still exist today because this verse clearly said “In the last days”, not “In the last day”, but Thomas believe otherwise without being able to explain why this verse use “In the last days”and not “In the last day”. And you have brought different interpretation.
Yes, this is your conclusion, your interpretation, not what the Bible say. To generalize that all visions and dreams are from satan is an overstatement. What if all those teachers really got their visions and dreams from God? You will be guilty of accusing your own brother and sister in Christ, just like the devil accusing our brother. You will be like the Pharisee who said that Jesus’ miracles were from satan. Have you considered that?
These 2 interpretations are 2 of 3 that are still debated within the wider church with all due respect. At no time has this been hidden from you. It also seems you did not research and bring your own conclusion to the table. If you would have an opinion bring it to the table for all to see. Irrespective which of the three you would accept as your interpretation of the scripture ith would still be problematical for you to further your “dreams and visions” spiritual fetish.
That would not detract from the fact that no dreams or visions occured at Pentecost in Acts. If anyone has ever said that they did it sure has not been put forward as nobody can.
What you fail to see is that none of the dreams and visions that people bring as “new or added revelation” are ever open to scrutiny by the wider church. It happens in books that we are able to test whether they align with scripture. Heaven is for Real does not align with scripture and you are being obstructive to insinuate that it does. While you have had your attempt to discredit logical viewpoints that I put on the table your vain arguments remain just that. You never seem to move forward, but try a new question to deviate from the point in debate. By all means attend a Bible College – nobody is stopping you. Hermeneutics is a subject that you will hate – “The study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible” ?
2 Tim 2:23 (NIV): Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights.
It was with the love of the truth that I commented on this particular topic and so I leave.
As followers of this thread might be disappointed in not seeing a “conclusion” in mini debate regarding the Joel prophecy I would point to a good article on bible-truth.org website under url http://bible-truth.org/VISIONS.html that I came across after posting my reply to Peter above.
We should know that dealing with error and false teaching is not without frustration, but I will not be drawn into foolish arguments. I am being kind to those who are serious about the truth and do not think that giving the deceived an ongoing platform is fruitful. A seed of truth sown might however take root and grow.
Thomas if you would like to have dialogue with me on my response to your request: “Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.” This seems to be the meaning of Joel 2:28. Do you mind if I asked you to elaborate a bit more with emphasis on “is yet to come.” I would ask you to use my email supplied to DTW.
John Andrews UK/Ireland
I am rather pressed for time to engage anyone in lengthy discussions. I appreciate your input but I cannot do so right now. One thing I can say is that I agree with your statement “Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.”
By the way, there is something wrong with the link you provided. It doesn’t open.
Yes, this is what you’ve said. No dreams or visions occured at Pentecost in Acts. So from this facts, from my logical point of view, I can say :
1. The interpretation that Joel was fulfilled ONLY at the Day of Pentecost (just like what Thomas said) is not right. Why? Because no dreams or visions occured at Pentecost, just like you said.
2. The interpretation that Joel will be fulfilled after the Day of the Lord (just like what you said) is not too right too. Why? Because after the Pentecost, Peter received visions, Paul received visions, John received visions.
Actually, my point is I don’t mind if you don’t believe that God can give visions and dreams to people in this modern day, but don’t generalize things. Sure, not every visions and dreams come from God, but it doesn’t mean that we should judge that EVERY visions and dreams are from satan.
You can quote all the website that support your view, I also can quote all the website that support my view about visions and dreams. Just like this
And what questions did I raised that alleviate from the subject? Aren’t my questions all about visions and dreams?
And you asked about my own conclusions. I think I have said it, my conclusion is that I believe that visions and dreams are still exist today. God still give visions and dreams to people in this modern day. Sure, not every one who claim to see visions get it from God, but this shouldn’t make us generalize that every visions are not from God. But we should test it with the Bible as the standard. Those visions and dreams shouldn’t contradict with what is written in the Bible.
Would you say that Colton Burpo’s experience (visions and dreams) were from God?
Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:
Thomas, No problem, below is in short a clue to where I am coming from.
Also, the link opens from your DTW site: http://bible-truth.org/VISIONS.html
I think that the Covenant theologians use replacement theology (some of them prefer “fulfilled” theology). Good luck with people that are not only deceived but have a strong delusion. One must realize that their worldly arguments are godless.
2 Timothy 2:16-17(KJV)
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Also: 2 Timothy 2:16-17New International Version (NIV)
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
Delusion is worse than deception and this is possible in some people and can even be classified as a psychiatric problem: “Psychiatry: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact” (dictionary.com)
Also some narcissists are unable to accept that they are wrong (or will not admit it!).
Best option is given in the above scripture. We should not waste time on someone that we can see will “not let go of the bone” (bones do not have meat on them).
You cannot argue that because Peter, Paul and John had visions that we should have visions and dreams as well. Paul, as far as I can recall had two visions (Acts 16:9; 2 Corinthians 12:1-7); Peter only had one vision (Acts 10:9-23) and John had one huge big vision consisting of various closely knitted elements, depicting the last days in the Book of Revelation. Many miraculous things happened during the church’s infancy. Ananias and Sapphira was struck down dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit. And yet today so-called Christians like Oral Roberts could say he had a vision in which he had a seven hour conversation with a nine hundred foot Jesus who told him to build a hospital. And what about when he said, God said He would kill him unless he got eight million dollars, and so forth. He was lying and yet the Holy Spirit did not strike him down dead. Perhaps it would be a good thing for God to strike down dead liars in the church so that would-be visionaries and dreamers should be fearful of telling lies about their dreams and visions. Today there are multitudes of so-called Christians, especially from the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, who claim to have a perpetual stream of visions and dreams which are all a pack of lies and yet none of them are struck down dead.