Heaven is For Real – This Story is Not

Thanks Deborah. I have read the same account on The Berean call. Thanks for reminding us to use our brains/common sense. People are mostly told to disengage their brains when it comes to the Supernatural – not true. The Word tells us we have sound minds and we must reason together. It astounds me to read and hear how many people are having these experiences lately and it is accepted as truth in our churches today. It was unheard of when we grew up – in fact it was rejected, now it is common and very common among the Americans. They seem to have overly active imaginations on just about everything. They are NOT authorities on anything, least on Theology, so don’t be fooled. Everything about them is exaggerated and hyped. We watch them on TBN, Daystar, GOD TV, u name it, shocking most of the times to hear what is being preached as truth. There are a FEW exceptions though, only but a FEW. This also links to the “little gods” doctrine – humanising Jesus and deifying man.

U’r so right Deborah. If one knows the Word then one can easily test Todd’s and Colton’s accounts against the WoG. I saw this interview on the 700Club and the first thing that bothered me was the fact that this child was scared. How can small children be afraid in the sweet presence of JC? In the Bible the children loved being around Jesus. I can go on and on….

Lizelle, it is astonishing to see this world- wide deception the Bible speaks of in these last days. What saddens me more is to see and speak to many believers who are under the sway of the wicked one as if they’ve already been given over to a spirit of delusion. I realised that many of them might NOT have grown up with sound Biblical teachings; they got saved in their 20’s under a charismatic type gospel (or even Calvinistic soteriology) and are so led away from sound Biblical truth – they have lots of zeal though. We have some friends who have exposed themselves to this other gospel that they can’t even properly interpret simple scriptures. As for CUM Books, yeah right, I do NOT frequent this bookshop because they are pleasing the world, offering so many varied interpretations of the Gospel. One must really know what you’re looking for in this bookshop. Even their DVDs are questionable and these “faith based” or “parables” movies are also screened on CTV (TBN), God TV and Daystar, most of them [not all] have nothing to do with the salvation Gospel of JC. Teaching good morals cannot be seperated from the One who introduced the morals – He is our authority – In the beginning was The WORD!

Debs.
>>>I want to review Elsa Meyers new book “Nuutgemaak” but my Afrikaans is really not that good,<<<

Patience Aunt Debs, chance is it will be translated in your tongue soon. (bet you it will be called something like "overhauled"

I just read the review. Chapter on visions, dreams and revelations sounds intriguing??

DANGERS IN CHRISTIAN BOOKSTORES

JANUARY 18, 2012

By David Cloud, http://www.wayoflife.org

Never have Christian books been so readily available to the average Christian and never has the spiritual danger associated with such books been so great. Sadly, the average member of a Bible-believing church does not know how to protect himself and his family from these dangers.

The following three crucial Bible truths can protect the child of God in these end times:

FIRST, THE LAST DAYS ARE CHARACTERIZED BY APOSTASY, NOT REVIVAL. Thus it is not surprising that we are confronted today with a vast amount of heresy and spiritual compromise. If ever there were a time when God’s people need to be knowledgeable and cautious it is today. “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. … For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables” (2 Tim. 3:13; 4:3-4).

SECOND, GOD WARNS HIS PEOPLE TO TEST EVERYTHING BY THE SCRIPTURES. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thess. 5:21). “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

THIRD, SPIRITUAL ERROR IS CLOTHED IN THE APPEARANCE OF TRUTH AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is subtle and can deceive us if we are not well educated biblically and exceedingly careful. “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves” (Matt. 7:15). “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ” (2 Cor. 11:2). “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

One of the greatest dangers in Christian bookstores is not dealt with in this book, since we have already dealt with them in other books. This is the Contemporary Christian Music that is promoted by the vast majority of bookstores today. (See the video series Music for Good or Evil and the new free eBook The Directory of Contemporary Worship Musicians, which are available from Way of Life Literature — http://www.wayoflife.org.)

Here we are going to deal with 14 other dangers in Christian bookstores.

1. SMORGASBORD OF MODERN BIBLE VERSIONS

The place we will begin our investigation into heresies and high places in the Southern Baptist Convention is the Bible section of any LifeWay bookstore.

There is a complete capitulation to the heresy of modern textual criticism and its Alexandrian Greek text and a capitulation to the idea that a multiplicity of versions is a blessing.

The smorgasbord principle in Bible versions is a very slippery slope. When the modern version path is first entered from a conservative KJV stance, it is typical for the individual to stay with the more conservative, literal modern translations. But these are very treacherous waters, and they frequently lead to the capitulation of all sense of spiritual discernment and to the acceptance of the strangest, most radical “versions” such as The New Living Bible and The Message. We will give many examples of this.

Before we go farther, though, we want to say that when we warn against the modern versions and promote the King James Bible, we are not fighting for some Ruckmanite principle such as that the King James was given by inspiration or that the King James is advanced revelation over the Greek and Hebrew or that to modernize or change the spelling of a word in the King James is to corrupt God’s Word. We are not saying that it is unimportant to learn the biblical languages or that we should throw away all of the lexicons. Some King James defenders do take such a stand, but that is not our position, and we are convinced that Peter Ruckman and Gail Riplinger and their followers have done nearly as much damage to the cause of the King James Bible as the modern versions have done.

The first great error of the modern versions is that they are based on a Greek text that was created in the 19th century through the humanistic “science” of modern textual criticism. This “science” treated the Bible as just another book and denied the divine inspiration of Scripture and God’s promise to preserve the Scripture. A large percentage of the principle names in the field of modern textual criticism are Christ-denying Unitarians and theological Modernists. (e.g., Simon, Bengel, Wettstein, Griesbach, Lachmann, Westcott, Hort, Schaff, Thayer, Briggs, Driver, Brown, Nestle, Liddle, Scott, von Soden, Kittel, Conybeare, Kenyon, Burkitt, Robinson, Lake, Souter, Clark, Moffatt, Goodspeed, Dodd, Bratcher, Colwell, Kilpatrick, Nida, Ehrman, Childs, Aland, Martini, Metzger, and Karavidopoulos).

We have documented this extensively in our book The Modern Bible Version Hall of Shame.

The modern Greek text removes or questions dozens of entire verses: Matthew 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:28; 16:9-20; Luke 17:36; 23:17; John 5:4; 7:53 – 8:11; Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:7; 28:29; Romans 16:24; 1 John 5:7.

The word difference between the Received Greek New Testament underlying the KJV and that underlying the modern versions is very large. More than 2,800 words are removed in the modern Greek text. That is the equivalent of the entire epistles of 1 and 2 Peter. (This exposes the myth that only 1/2 page of text is in question.)

Textual criticism creates a Greek text that weakens many doctrines, such as the doctrine of Christ’s deity. Consider, for example, 1 Timothy 3:16, where the word “God” is removed in all of the modern versions. We give many other examples of this in the book Why We Hold to the King James Bible.

John Burgon and many other Bible-believing scholars exposed modern textual criticism at its inception and warned that the textual critics were preferring Bible manuscripts that can be traced to Egypt at a time when heretics were tampering with the Scriptures and introducing heresies.

We have documented this in For Love of the Bible: The History of the Defense of the King James Bible and Its Received Greek Text.

Another great error associated with the modern versions is the principle of dynamic equivalency which has given translators great and frightful liberty in changing God’s words.

At this point, the waters get even more treacherous.

Consider The Message, which is extremely popular throughout evangelicalism and beyond. The following examples are typical:

Matthew 5:3

KJV – “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

THE MESSAGE – “You’re blessed when you’re at the end of your rope. With less of you there is more of God and his rule.”

Matthew 5:8

KJV – “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.”

THE MESSAGE – “You’re blessed when you get your inside world, your mind and heart, put right. Then you can see God in the outside world.”

Matthew 5:14

KJV – “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.”

THE MESSAGE – “Here’s another way to put it: You’re here to be light, bringing out the God-colors in the world.”

You might say, “Who in the world would use and recommend such a corruption?”

The answer is a Who’s Who list of evangelicals and Southern Baptists. The Message has been recommended by Billy Graham, Warren Wiersbe, Jack Hayford, J.I. Packer, Michael Card, Leighton Ford, Bill Hybels, Lamar Cooper of Criswell College, Paul House of Southern Baptist Seminary, Bill and Gloria Gaither, Chuck Swindoll, Gary Smalley, Gordon Fee, Gordon MacDonald, Jerry Jenkins, John Maxwell, Joyce Meyer, Max Lucado, Michael W. Smith, the Newsboys, Phil Driscoll, Rebecca St. James, Stuart and Jill Briscoe, Tony Campolo, and Vernon Grounds, to name a few. Rick Warren quotes it frequently, five times in the first chapter of The Purpose-Driven Life. Joni Earckson Tada says, “WOW! What a treasure The Message is.” (This information was gathered from the NAVPress web site.).

A major problem with the modern version movement is a very practical one: it has weakened the authority of God’s Word through the smorgasbord principle. This has happened through an ever-expanding, almost bewildering, multiplicity of versions, and the people are encouraged simply to pick their favorites with no solid standard of biblical authority as an anchor. Consider the following testimony by a former Southern Baptist pastor:

“The problem with the SBC is that they have no absolute biblical authority. Although, while I was still SBC, we claimed to have settled the matter of the inerrancy of Scripture in 1986, we did not settle what Scripture is. The plethora of translations has continued unabated in the two decades since they ‘settled the matter of inerrancy.’ The abundance of translations provoked me to study the translation issue. I spent two years studying the issue, in an effort to disprove the idea that the King James was any better than the rest. Of course, when I approached the issue with an open mind and heart, the Holy Spirit taught me the truth. That was the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ for me. I left the convention in October 1996. With each translation saying something different, the casualty has been biblical discernment. The typical SBC church has no less than four different translations in any given service. So, it is impossible for the people to hear ‘Thus saith the Lord.’ EVERY ISSUE BECOMES DEBATABLE. EVERY CONVICTION BECOMES QUESTIONABLE. Then, spiritual discernment becomes typical of the time of the Judges (i.e., every man doing that which is right in his own eyes). Therefore, it makes sense that they are so willing and ready to accept the abominable heresies of The Shack.” (Marty Wynn, Lighthouse Baptist Church, Columbus, Georgia, e-mail to D. Cloud, May 21, 2011).

Consider Rick Warren, the most prominent and influential Southern Baptist today. He uses a multiplicity of versions in every sermon and in every book he writes. On a visit to Saddleback Church in 2003 I was interested to see that most people weren’t carrying Bibles. The reason became obvious when the sermon was preached. Six or seven versions were quoted, most of them loose paraphrases or dynamic equivalencies such as the Living Bible, the New Living Translation, The Message, the Today’s English Version, and the Contemporary English Version. It would be impossible to follow along in one’s Bible. The result is that many of the people do not bring Bibles and even those who do, have no way to test the preaching, because any biblical passage they would attempt to examine has dozens of variations.

This is a recipe for spiritual deception and an ideal environment for the promotion of heresy.

2. THE DANGER OF NEW EVANGELICAL POSITIVISM

One of the greatest dangers facing fundamentalist Christians today is the New Evangelical philosophy that has pervaded evangelicalism over the past 50 years. It is particularly dangerous because it appears at first glance to be biblically sound. The heart of New Evangelicalism is not the error that it preaches but the truth that it neglects. It focuses on the positive, largely avoids theological controversy and unpopular subjects (i.e., ecclesiastical separation, a fiery hell, separation from the world).

The New Evangelical narrows down his message, focusing only on a portion of the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27). This means that much that the New Evangelical preaches and writes is scriptural and spiritually beneficial. The New Evangelical might say many good things about salvation, Christian living, love for the Lord, marriage, child training, sanctification, the deity of Christ, even the infallibility of Scripture.

When faced with a requirement of coming out plainly against error and naming the names of popular Christian leaders, though, he will refuse to take a stand and will, more likely, attack the one who is trying to force his hand or will lash out against “extreme fundamentalism” or “second degree separation” or some such thing.

Billy Graham is the king of positivism and non-judgmentalism. Graham’s books are on the shelves of the vast majority of Christian bookstores today. He is extremely influential, and his message has been described as “hard at the center but soft at the edges.” He says his job is merely to preach the gospel, that he is not called to get involved in doctrinal controversies.

In 1966 the United Church Observer, the official paper of the ultra liberal United Church of Canada (in 1997 Moderator Bill Phipps said Jesus Christ is not God), asked Graham a series of questions. His answers demonstrate the New Evangelical positive-only, non-judgmental style:

Q. In your book you speak of ‘false prophets’. You say it is the ‘full-time effort of many intellectuals to circumvent God’s plan’ and you make a quotation from Paul Tillich. Do you consider Paul Tillich a false prophet?

A. I HAVE MADE IT A PRACTICE NOT TO PASS JUDGMENT ON OTHER CLERGYMEN. …

Q. Do you think that churches such as The United Church of Canada and the great liberal churches of the United States that are active in the ecumenical movement and whose ministers study and respect the work of Paul Tillich and other great modern teachers are ‘apostate’?

A. I COULD NOT POSSIBLY PASS THIS TYPE OF JUDGMENT ON INDIVIDUAL CHURCHES AND CLERGYMEN WITHIN THE UNITED CHURCH OF CANADA — my knowledge of The United Church of Canada is too inadequate, and my ability to make such discernment is too limited. My books and writings are public knowledge but I love fellowship and work with many Christians who don’t agree with me theologically in everything. As to my calling everyone ‘apostate’ who reads and gets help from Tillich — this is preposterous. There are too many shades of theological opinion in a large denomination to lump them all off as liberal, neo-orthodox, conservative, fundamentalist, or what have you!

Q. Does your organization stand with us for a modern, enlightened, scholarly attempt to explain to our people what ‘The Bible says’? Or does it stand with those who describe us as ‘an apostate church spreading our unbelief’?

A. OUR EVANGELISTIC ASSOCIATION IS NOT CONCERNED TO PASS JUDGMENT — FAVORABLE OR ADVERSE — ON ANY PARTICULAR DENOMINATION. WE DO NOT INTEND TO GET INVOLVED IN THE VARIOUS DIVISIONS WITHIN THE CHURCH. We are simple Gospel preachers, not scholarly theologians — though several of our team members have their earned doctorates. We feel that our calling is that of specialists — winning people to a personal commitment to Jesus Christ! We do not intend to allow ourselves to become bogged down in the many religious crosscurrents (“Billy Graham Answers 26 Provocative Questions,” United Church Observer, July 1, 1966).

This is pure New Evangelicalism. The New Evangelical will preach against error in general terms but rarely will he do it plainly and specifically.

Graham’s refusal to preach anything beyond the most basic aspects of the gospel (and even that much is questionable) is why he is acceptable both to Roman Catholics and theological Modernists. Charles Dullea, Superior of the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome, said: “Because he is preaching basic Christianity, he does not enter into matters which today divide Christians. He does not touch on Sacraments or Church in any detail. … The Catholic will hear no slighting of his Church’s teaching authority, nor of Papal or Episcopal Prerogatives, no word against the mass or sacraments or Catholic practices. GRAHAM HAS NO TIME FOR THAT; he is preaching only Christ and a personal commitment to Him. The Catholic, in my opinion will hear little, if anything, he cannot agree with” (Dullea, “A Catholic Looks at Billy Graham,” Homiletic & Pastoral Review, January 1972).

Graham is only one example of the multiplicity of New Evangelical authors who fill the shelves of the average Christian bookstore today. David Jeremiah, Charles Stanley, and Max Lucado are prime examples. What they say is often scriptural; the error and danger lies in what they refuse to say. They refuse to deal with the whole counsel of God. They neglect the “hard things” like biblical separation but these are the very things that need to be preached in this day and time.

The emphasis of the books available in these bookstores is not on solid Bible preaching and teaching and plain exposure of those errors that are corrupting God’s people and work today. Rather, the emphasis is on “a positive proclamation of the truth” and feel-good shallow pabulum. It’s feel-good psychobabble fluff with a thin veneer of “Bible” falsely so-called (often some loose paraphrase such as The Message).

As J.I. Packer says about Richard Foster and the Renovare books, they are “mild on sin but firm on grace” (back cover to Foster’s book Life with God). Packer meant this to be a compliment, but it is actually an indictment, because the Bible is firm on sin as well as firm on grace. You can’t have a proper perspective of grace without a proper emphasis on sin, because it is the awfulness of sin and the greatness of God’s holiness and terrible justice that allows us to see grace in its proper perspective. Otherwise, it is “cheap grace,” and cheap grace is what lines the shelves of the average Christian bookstore.

You have, for example, Robert Schuller’s “Turning Hurts into Halos” and Kay Arthur’s “Lord, Heal My Hurts” and Charles Stanley’s “The Source of My Strength (Healing Your Wounded Heart),” David Jeremiah’s “A Bend in the Road (Experiencing God When Your World Caves In), and “Disappointment with God” and “What’s So Amazing about Grace” by Philip Yancey.

3. THE DANGER OF ECUMENICALISM

Christian bookstores today are filled with volumes promoting the ecumenical philosophy, which says that unity and fellowship are more important than doctrine and zeal for the truth and exposure of error. Consider some examples.

In his popular autobiography, Just As I Am, Billy Graham praises the pope and tells of how he turned his converts over to Roman Catholic churches. He also describes his close association with theological modernists for the sake of “evangelism.”

Chuck Colson’s popular book The Body claims that Protestant and Catholic doctrine is converging and says that they are part of the same “body.”

John Maxwell’s book Failing Forward promotes Catholic missions as a genuine form of Christianity.

Philip Yancey’s Where Is God When It Hurts claims that Roman Catholic missions are part of the “body of Christ.”

Jim Cymbala, in his book Fresh Power, says that Jesus prayed for all his people to become one, whether they are Evangelical, Charismatic, Baptist, or Lutheran.

Max Lucado, in his book In the Grip of Grace, praises God for the Church of Christ (who teach the heresy of baptismal regeneration), Pentecostals, Anglicans, Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics.

The popular author Richard Foster is a radical ecumenist whose vision is described like this: “I see a Catholic monk from the hills of Kentucky standing alongside a Baptist evangelist from the streets of Los Angeles and together offering up a sacrifice of praise. I see a people” (Streams of Living Water, 1998, p. 274).

Popular author Elisabeth Elliot, who is an Episcopalian and ecumenical in philosophy, spoke at the Roman Catholic Franciscan University in 1989 and at Notre Dame in 1998. She had nothing negative to say when her brother Thomas Howard joined the Roman Catholic Church.

Consider Robert Webber. He said: “A goal for evangelicals in the postmodern world is to accept diversity as a historical reality, but to seek unity in the midst of it. This perspective will allow us to see Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches as various forms of the one true church…” (Ancient-Future Faith, p. 85).

Consider John Michael Talbot. A priest encouraged him to be a bridge-builder between Protestantism and Catholicism (Troubadour for the Lord, p. 90). His winsome personality, ecumenical ventures, and soft rock, hymn-like music has created this bridge. His albums were the first by a Catholic artist to be accepted by both Protestant and Catholic listeners. In 1996 Talbot produced an ecumenical album (Brother to Brother) jointly with fellow CCM performer Michael Card, an evangelical. Of this venture, Card testified: “Doing this project has enabled us to become real friends. And along the way, the denominational lines have become really meaningless to me, and to John, too” (CCM Magazine, July 1996).

Consider Tony Campolo. You can find him practically anywhere–preaching the same ecumenically-popular message: He spoke at the National Council of Churches’ “A Gathering of Christians,” May 1988. He was on the editorial board for the production of the film Mother Teresa, which exalted the Roman Catholic nun and contained no warning about her false gospel. Campolo often uses Mother Teresa as an example of biblical Christianity, though she preached a false gospel, believed that all men are children of God, worshiped the wafer of the mass, and prayed to Mary. Campolo has spoken at self-esteem guru Robert Schuller’s Institute for Church Growth. He referred positively to Seventh-day Adventism in his book 20 Hot Potatoes Christians Are Afraid to Touch (chapter 3). Any lip service Campolo gives to the importance of doctrinal correctness is negated by his constant fellowship with heretics.

4. THE DANGER OF ANTI-FUNDAMENTALISM

Another popular philosophy you will find in the average Christian bookstore today is the spirit of anti-fundamentalism. The popular authors rarely denounce the Roman Catholic Church or theological modernism, but they are very bold to denounce biblical fundamentalism.

Jerry Bridges, for example, in his misnamed book Transforming Grace, says that “legalism” is expecting faithful church attendance, worrying about the length of a man’s hair, preaching against worldliness, and setting up fences. He says that “legalists: “have cast iron opinions” and see things as black and white, as if this were a terrible thing!

Chuck Swindoll, in his popular book The Grace Awakening, claims that “grace” includes an absence of “Bible bashing and dogmatism” and warns about strict fundamentalist ministries.

The average Christian bookstore is no friend of fundamentalist congregations.

5. THE DANGER OF THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT

The average Christian bookstore today is filled with books by Pentecostals and Charismatics who promote their unscriptural doctrines.

Jack Hayford, for example, is a very popular author in evangelical circles, even though he teaches that one must begin to speak in “baby tongues” before you can speak in mature tongues, and he says that God spoke to him and told him not to judge the Roman Catholic Church. (See our article “Beware of Jack Hayford” at the Way of Life web site.)

We have dealt extensively with the great danger of the Charismatic movement in The Pentecostal-Charismatic Movements: The History and the Error, which is available in print and eBook editions, as well as in a video series.

6. THE DANGER OF THE CONTEMPORARY CHURCH GROWTH PHILOSOPHY

The average Christian bookstore also features books by the popular church growth gurus such as Rick Warren of Saddleback Church and Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church.

There is a soft message, downplaying the “non-essentials” for the sake of attracting a crowd.

Rick Warren says, “I’m not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. Why be divisive?”

Willowcreek Community Church says, “There is no hell-fire and brimstone here, no Bible-thumping, just positive witty messages.”

Church growth gurus promote the music is neutral philosophy in order to draw crowds through popular musical styles.

In his book The Purpose Driven Church, Rick Warren says: “We need to admit that no particular style of music is ‘sacred.’” Saddleback Church has nine “worship venues,” including country line-dancing and island hula.

The church growth gurus promote the “non-judgmentalism” doctrine.

In The Purpose Driven Life, Warren says: “God warns us over and over not to criticize, compare, or judge each other. … Whenever I judge another believer, four things instantly happen: I lose fellowship with God, I expose my own pride, I set myself to be judged by God, and I harm the fellowship of the church” (p. 164).

In this heretical statement Warren makes no distinction between judging hypocritically (which is forbidden in Matthew 7) or judging on the basis of personal preference in matters not taught in Scripture (which is forbidden in Romans 14) and judging on the basis of the Bible (which is required by God).

7. THE DANGER OF CHRISTIAN PSYCHOLOGY

Many of the books lining the shelves of the average Christian bookstore promote the error of “Christian psychology.”

A prominent heresy in this field is the pursuit of self-esteem, which was borrowed from humanistic God haters like Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers.

James Dobson has been at the forefront of promoting psychology heresies. He claims that “lack of self-esteem produces more symptoms of psychiatric disorders than any other factor yet identified” (Dr. Dobson Answers Your Questions about Confident Healthy Families, 1987, pp. 73-74). His 1974 book Hide and Seek was designed “to formulate a well-defined philosophy–and approach to child rearing — that will contribute to self-esteem from infancy onwards.” He says, “… lack of self-esteem is a threat to the entire human family, affecting children, adolescents, the elderly, all socioeconomic levels of society, and each race and ethic culture” (What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew, p. 24). Dobson believes that lack of self-esteem is the cause of every social ill.

“Thus, whenever the keys to self-esteem are seemingly out of reach for a large percentage of the people, as in twentieth-century America, then widespread mental illness, neuroticism, hatred, alcoholism, drug abuse, violence, and social disorder will certainly occur. Personal worth is not something humans are free to take or leave. We must have it, and when it is unattainable, everybody suffers” (Dr. Dobson Answers Your Questions about Confident, Healthy Families, p. 67).

Because his teaching focuses on psychology rather than God’s Word, Dobson’s writings are popular across all denominational lines. Dobson has a large Roman Catholic audience and refuses to warn about Rome’s heresies. Mother Teresa was praised in his Clubhouse magazine. He accepted an honorary degree from the Roman Catholic Franciscan University. And he has been featured on the cover of the Roman Catholic New Covenant magazine, which teaches that we should pray to Mary.

David Seamands is another pioneer of the self-esteem movement. His hugely popular books Healing for Damaged Emotions and Healing of Memories seek to heal the believer of “Satan’s most powerful psychological weapon” which is “low self-esteem.” He aims to take the client back into the past to recover and heal memories of events that injured one’s self-esteem. Seamands’ mystical path toward self-esteem is “healing of memories” through psychological counseling and New Age techniques. He promotes things as positive visualization, guided imagery, dream analysis, and venting of emotions. Through visualization, the individual is taught to imagine painful past events in perfect detail and to imagine Jesus entering the scenes to bring healing. This is not only vain fantasy; it is occultic and it is a recipe for communing with deceiving spirits masquerading as angels of light.

Larry Crabb is another promoter of humanistic psychology under the guise of Christian counseling. He teaches psychological heresies such as self-esteem, Freud’s unconscious mind mind, unconditional love, and unconditional forgiveness. He claims that salvation and sanctification through God’s Word are not sufficient. Believers also need psychological counseling. He writes that the “the Word–understood, proclaimed, and obeyed–is itself sufficient to change lives” is wishful thinking because “it leaves large and significant areas of human experience untouched–and therefore unchanged” (Understanding People, p. 10).

Other authors who have brought the errors of humanistic psychology into Christian homes and churches are Clyde Narramore, Selwyn Hughes, Frank Minirth, Paul Meier, and Gary Collins.

In The Dark Side of Christian Counselling and Christ or Thereapy? E.S. Williams has exposed the great spiritual danger of Christian psychology. Williams is a medical doctor and a member of the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, England.

8. THE DANGER OF CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER

The contemplative movement has spread within evangelicalism like wildfire over the past decade. It has its own evangelical gurus, such as Richard Foster, but its methods and principles come from Roman Catholic monasticism.

Some of the popular Catholic mystics you will find in many evangelical bookstores are Julian of Norwich, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola (founder of the Jesuits who were at the forefront of the violent papal counter-reformation), Thomas Aquinas, Bernard of Clairvaux, Madame Guyon, Henri Nouwen, Brother Lawrence, Thomas Ryan, Henri Nouwen, John Main, Peter Kreeft, John Michael Talbot, Basil Pennington, Thomas Keating, and Thomas Merton.

Some of the popular contemplative writers are as follows:

RICHARD FOSTER claims that through thought-less meditation one can “center” deep within oneself and “actually encounter the living Christ” and “be addressed by his voice” (Celebration of Discipline, p. 26). He even says that the meditation practitioner can enter “into a deep inner communion with the Father where you look at Him and He looks at you” (p. 27). Foster promotes a visualization practice where the individual leaves his body and goes “deep into outer space” into the very “presence of the eternal Creator” and there listens carefully and gets instruction directly from God (Celebration of Discipline, 1978 edition, pp. 27-28).

KEN BLANCHARD encourages borrowing from pagan religions. He says, “Our folks get to hear words of wisdom from great prophets and spiritual leaders like Buddha, Mohammed … Yogananda and the Dalai Lama” (foreword to What Would Buddha Do at Work? 2001). Blanchard has strong ties with the New Age and recommends many New Age books. For example, he wrote the foreword to the 2007 edition of Jim Ballard’s book Little Wave and Old Swell, which is inspired by Hindu guru Paramahansa Yogananda. This book is designed to teach children that God is all and man is one with God. In the foreword Blanchard makes the amazing statement: “Yogananda loved Jesus, and Jesus would have loved Yogananda.” I was a disciple of Yogananda before I was saved, and there is no doubt that he did NOT love the Jesus of the Bible! I renounced Yogananda and his false christ after I was born again.

THOMAS MERTON was a Catholic Trappist monk who intertwined pagan yogic practices with the contemplative practices of the Catholic “saints.” Merton not only studied Buddhism and Sufism (mystical Islam), he said, “I’m deeply impregnated with Sufism” (Rob Baker, Merton and Sufism, p. 109), and, “I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity. … I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can” (David Steindl-Rast, “Recollection of Thomas Merton’s Last Days in the West,” Monastic Studies, 7:10, 1969). Merton also said: “Asia, Zen, Islam, etc., all these things come together in my life. It would be madness for me to attempt to create a monastic life for myself by excluding all these” (Baker, Merton and Sufism, p. 41).

BASIL PENNINGTON taught that man shares God’s divine nature. “We are united with everybody else in our human nature and in OUR SHARING OF A DIVINE NATURE, so we are never really alone, we have all this union and communion” (interview with Mary NurrieStearns, “Transforming Suffering,” 1991, Personal Transformation website, . Pennington also said, “… the soul of the human family is the Holy Spirit” (Centered Living, p. 104).

THOMAS KEATING says” “Contemplative prayer is the opening of mind and heart, our whole being, to God, the Ultimate Mystery, BEYOND THOUGHTS, WORDS, AND EMOTIONS. It is a process of interior purification THAT LEADS, IF WE CONSENT, TO DIVINE UNION” (Keating interview with Kate Olson, “Centering Prayer as Divine Therapy,” Trinity News, Trinity Church in the City, New York City, volume 42, issue 4, 1995). Keating even recommends occultic Kundalini yoga.

JOHN MICHAEL TALBOT, who is very influential in the contemplative prayer movement, says that Mary “intercedes to God on my behalf” and testifies that he has felt “the presence of Mary becoming important in my life” (Contemporary Christian Music Magazine, November 1984, p. 47). In his book Simplicity, he says: “I have found praying the Rosary to be one of the most powerful tools I possess in obtaining simple, childlike meditation on the life of Jesus Christ.”

PHILIP YANCEY promotes the contemplative movement in his book Prayer: Does It Make Any Difference? He quotes the Buddhist-Catholic monk Thomas Merton, goddess worshiper Sue Monk Kidd, pantheist Meister Eckhart, David Steindl-Rast (who denies the substitutionary atonement of Christ), Richard Rohr (who worships as New Age “cosmic” Christ). Yancy also quotes Catholic “saint” Teresa of Avila and the heretical Catholic contemplative text The Cloud of Unknowing, which promotes a mindless communion with “God” by means of a “mantra.”

TONY CAMPOLO promotes the contemplative movement in his book The God of Intimacy and Action. He praises Catholic saints such as Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, Teresa of Avila, and Catherine of Siena. He seems contemplative mysticism as the path to interfaith unity. Campolo describes his own practice: “I get up in the morning a half hour before I have to and spend time in absolute stillness. I don’t ask God for anything. I just simply surrender to His presence and yield to the Spirit flowing into my life. … An interviewer once asked Mother Teresa, ‘When you pray, what do you say to God?’ She said, ‘I don’t say anything. I just listen.’ So the interviewer asked, ‘What does God say to you?’ She replied, ‘God doesn’t say anything. He listens.’ That’s the kind of prayer I do in the morning” (Outreach Magazine, July/ August 2004, pp. 88, 89).

BRENNAN MANNING promotes the contemplative movement. In The Signature of Jesus Manning promotes the dangerous practice of centering prayer, which involves chanting “a sacred word” to empty the mind and allegedly enter into silent experiential communion with God within: “[T]HE FIRST STEP IN FAITH IS TO STOP THINKING ABOUT GOD AT THE TIME OF PRAYER. … enter into the great silence of God. Alone in that silence, the noise within will subside and the Voice of Love will be heard. … Choose a single, sacred word … repeat the sacred word inwardly, slowly, and often” (pp. 212, 215, 218). Manning calls centering prayer a “GREAT DARKNESS” (The Signature of Jesus, p. 145) and an entire chapter of his book is devoted to “Celebrate the Darkness.” Manning recommends repeating an eight-word mantra (“The Lord is my Shepherd, I lack nothing”) for 10 minutes. “The first step toward rejuvenation begins with accepting where you are and exposing your poverty, frailty, and emptiness to the love that is everything. DON’T TRY TO feel anything, THINK ANYTHING, or do anything … Don’t force prayer. Simply relax in the presence of the God you half believe in and ask for a touch of folly” (The Ragamuffin Gospel, p. 196). Manning recommends spending three days in silence without reading the Bible.

9. THE DANGER OF INCLUSIVISM

We could give many examples of how that the heretical idol of inclusivism is present in the Southern Baptist Convention. Here I am referring to the doctrine that men can be saved apart from faith in Christ.

Billy Graham has blazed the trail in this. In an interview with McCall’s magazine, January 1978, entitled “I Can’t Play God Any More,” Graham said: “I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost—were going to hell—if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I no longer believe that. … I believe that there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God—through nature, for instance—and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying ‘yes’ to God.” In 1985, Graham affirmed his belief that those outside of Christ might be saved. Los Angeles reporter David Colker asked Graham: “What about people of other faiths who live good lives but don’t profess a belief in Christ?” Graham replied, “I’m going to leave that to the Lord. He’ll decide that” (Los Angeles Herald Examiner, July 22, 1985). In 1993, Graham repeated this doctrine in an interview with David Frost. “And I think there is that hunger for God and people are living as best they know how according to the light that they have. Well, I think they’re in a separate category than people like Hitler and people who have just defied God, and shaken their fists at God. … I would say that God, being a God of mercy, we have to rest it right there, and say that God is a God of mercy and love, and how it happens, we don’t know” (The Charlotte Observer, Feb. 16, 1993). In an interview with Robert Schuller in May 1997, Graham again said that he believes people in other religions can be saved without consciously believing in Jesus Christ. “[God’s] calling people out of the world for His name, whether WHETHER THEY COME FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD, OR THE BUDDHIST WORLD, OR THE CHRISTIAN WORLD OR THE NON-BELIEVING WORLD, THEY ARE MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN CALLED BY GOD. THEY MAY NOT EVEN KNOW THE NAME OF JESUS but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven” (television interview of Billy Graham by Robert Schuller, broadcast in southern California, Saturday, May 31, 1997).

Some conservative SBC leaders like Al Mohler have reproved Rob Bell and his book Love Wins, but what is Rob Bell saying today that Billy Graham hasn’t been saying for more than 30 years?

Speaking of Rob Bell, his universalistic book Love Wins (“even the most ‘depraved sinners’ will eventually give up their resistance and turn to God”) isn’t sold in LifeWay bookstores, but an earlier book, Velvet Elvis, has been sold since it was first published in 2005. Here Bell claims that Jesus is already with people even in their false religions, thus “the issue isn’t so much taking Jesus to people who don’t have him, but going to a place and pointing out to the people there the creative, life-giving God who is already present in their midst” (Velvet Elvis, p. 88).

C.S. Lewis, whose writings are fervently loved among Southern Baptists and are sold in LifeWay bookstores, claimed that followers of pagan religions can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ: “There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence … Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position” (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, HarperSanFrancisco edition, 2001, pp. 64, 208, 209). Lewis’s The Chronicles of Narnias intertwines a few vague biblical themes with pagan mythology: nymphs, fauns (part man and part goat), dwarfs, centaurs (part man and part horse), Dryads (tree-women), and Naiads (well-women). All of these creatures are depicted as serving Aslan, the alleged Christ figure. Lewis presents the deeply heretical idea of good magic. He calls Aslan’s power “Deep Magic” and Aslan’s father’s power as “Emperor’s Magic.” He introduces the pagan god Bacchus and his orgies as a desirable thing. He presents the myth of “Father Christmas.” He teaches that Adam’s first wife was not Eve but rather a woman named Lilith and that she was a witch.

Henri Nouwen wrote: “Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God” (Sabbatical Journey, 1998, p. 51).

Max Lucado, whose books are sold in LifeWay bookstores and whose writings are hugely popular among Southern Baptists, preaches the same heresy. In the book Max on Life the following question is asked: “What about the people who have never heard of God? Will God punish them?” Lucado replies: “No, He will not. Heaven’s population includes throngs of people who learned the name of their Savior when they awoke in their eternal home” (p. 222).

Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary and author of Uncommon Decency, says that after a rabbi friend of his died, he “held out the hope that when he saw Jesus he would acknowledge that it was Him all along, and that Jesus would welcome him into the heavenly realm” (Christian Post, March 20, 2011).

Popular author Josh McDowell says that he does not know whether “those who have never heard about Jesus will be automatically damned” (5 Minutes with Josh, April 1985). He believes that the Scriptures imply that “someone who has never heard of Jesus can be saved.” He says, “We do believe that every person will have an opportunity to repent and that God will not exclude anyone because he happened to be born ‘at the

wrong place and time.’”

Clark Pinnock, author of Salvation in a Pluralistic World, writes: “Faith in Jesus as the Savior of the world leaves room for us to be open and generous to other religious traditions. … I welcome the Saiva Siddhanta literature of Hinduism … Japanese Shin-Shu Amida … Buddha as a righteous man … Mohammed as a prophet…”

Dallas Willard says, “It is possible for someone who does not know Jesus to be saved” (Cutting Edge magazine, Winter 2000).

Tony Campolo said: “I am not convinced that Jesus only lives in Christians” (The Charlie Rose Show, cited from Calvary Contender, October 1, 1999). When asked by Bill Moyers on MSNBC in 1996 whether evangelicals should try to convert Jews he replied: “I am not about to make judgments about my Jewish brothers and my Muslim brothers and sisters.”

Popular author Brennan Manning, in his books The Signature of Jesus and Gentle Revolutionaries, describes a dream he has had about judgment day. He sees Adolf Hitler and Hugh Hefner (founder of Playboy magazine) and himself and others going before God to be judged, but God just takes them by the hand and walks them home. The implication is that everyone is accepted by God through grace, regardless of whether they repent and believe the gospel and have a born again experience.

10. THE DANGER OF THE EMERGING CHURCH

Emerging Church is the name for a new approach to missions and church life among some “evangelicals” for these present times. Since society is changing, the church must change. It is the latest heresy within the broad tent of evangelicalism. Fifty years ago they rejected “separatism” for a more “positive” Christianity. The breaking down of the walls of separation between sound churches and unsound, truth and heresy, has results in the wholesale corruption and compromise of “evangelicalism,” including the largest evangelical denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention.

Consider BRIAN MCLAREN. His book A New Kind of Christian won a Christianity Today Award of Merit, but it is filled with heresy. It is about an evangelical pastor who has a crisis of faith and submits himself to the guidance of a liberal Episcopalian who leads him into “Postmodern Christianity.” The book teaches that the Bible is not the infallible Word of God and that all doctrines and theologies are non-absolute, that we need to approach the Bible “on less defined terms” (p. 56). It teaches that the Bible alone should not be the authority, but that the Bible should only be one of the authorities, that others include tradition, reason, exemplary people and institutions one has come to trust, and spiritual experience (pp. 54, 55). It teaches that it is wrong and Pharisaical to look upon the Bible as “God’s encyclopedia, God’s rule book, God’s answer book” (p. 52).

Consider ROB BELL, author of Velvet Elvis. He claims that Jesus is already with people even in their false religions, thus “the issue isn’t so much taking Jesus to people who don’t have him, but going to a place and pointing out to the people there the creative, life-giving God who is already present in their midst” (Velvet Elvis, p. 88). Bell says that Christ has given believers the authority to come up with new interpretations of the Bible (Velvet Elvis, p. 50). He says the New Testament epistles “aren’t first and foremost timeless truths” (p. 62) and claims that the apostles didn’t “claim to have the absolute word from God” (p. 57). In his 2011 book Love Wins, Bell teaches that most people will eventually be reconciled to God and that there is opportunity for salvation for those who do not name the name of Christ. “The love of God will melt every hard heart, and even the most ‘depraved sinners’ will eventually give up their resistance and turn to God.” He says the statements in Bible about hell being a place of fire and torment are mere poetry.

Consider DONALD MILLER, author of Blue Like Jazz. His popular book is a harsh rant against traditional evangelical Christianity and he frequently takes shots at doctrinal dogmatism. In discussing his involvement in church in his youth he writes, “I wished I could have subscribed to aspects of Christianity but not the whole thing” (p. 30). He says, “In order to believe Christianity, you either had to reduce enormous theological absurdities [i.e., Garden of Eden, universal flood] into children’s stories or ignore them” (p. 31). He wanted to believe the gospel “free from the clasp of fairy tale” (p. 35). He says it is wrong to have “rules and laws and principles to judge each other against” (p. 215).

Consider ERWIN MCMANUS, author of The Barbarian Way. Erwin McManus calls upon Christians to live “the barbarian way” in contrast to the traditional Bible path, which he describes as “civilized.” He says those on the barbarian way “have little patience for institutions” and do not focus on “requirements” (p. 6). He says faith should not be restrained and domesticated (p. 10). Those who follow the barbarian way “are not required or expected to keep in step” and “there is no forced conformity” (p. 71). He says that those who are on the barbarian way follow Christ’s voice but this voice is not necessarily found in the Bible (p. 84).

Consider DAVID FOSTER, author of A Renegade’s Guide to God. Foster says, “We won’t be ‘told’ what to do or ‘commanded’ how to behave.”

Consider DONALD MCCULLOUGH, author of If Grace Is So Amazing Why Don’t We Live Like It? He says that he doesn’t like the type of preaching that says “… don’t do that, curb you appetites, reign in desire, discipline and sacrifice yourself.”

Consider MARK DRISCOLL, senior pastor of Mars Hills Church in Seattle. He describes himself as “theologically conservative and culturally liberal.” His church hosts champagne dance parties and beer brewing lessons; the men watch and discuss R-rated movies. The church operates a theater called Paradox that hosts secular rock concerts.

11. THE DANGER OF PROCESS SALVATION

Consider Dallas Willard. He writes, “Why is it that we look upon salvation as a moment that began our religious life instead of the daily life we receive from God?” (The Spirit of the Disciplines). He rejects the gospel of Christ’s blood atonement (The Divine Conspiracy, pp. 44, 49).

Consider the very popular author Elisabeth Elliot. In the book Taking Flight she writes: “Those who receive Christ are given not an ‘instant’ kingdom’ but the ‘right to become children of God.’ … It does not say God makes them instant children of God. It says He gives them the right to become” (page 12).

Consider popular writer Tony Campolo. In Letters to a Young Evangelical he writes: “When I was a boy growing up in a lower-middle-class neighborhood in West Philadelphia, my mother, a convert to Evangelical Christianity from a Catholic Italian immigrant family, hoped I would have one of those dramatic ‘born-again’ experiences. … BUT IT NEVER WORKED FOR ME. … It took me quite some time to realize that entering into a personal relationship with Christ DOES NOT ALWAYS HAPPEN THAT WAY. … In my case INTIMACY WITH CHRIST WAS DEVELOPED GRADUALLY OVER THE YEARS, primarily through what Catholic mystics call ‘centering prayer.’ … I learned about this way of having a born-again experience from reading the Catholic mystics, especially The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola” (pp. 25, 26, 30, 31).

There is no process salvation found in the New Testament. That is Catholicism. That is sacramentalism, but it is not New Testament salvation. Jesus described salvation as a “birth” and a “conversion” (John 3:3; Matthew 18:3). The salvations that are described for us in the book of Acts were all of the born again/conversion type. We consider the 3,000 on the Day of Pentecost, the Apostle Paul, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia, the Philippian jailer, among others. Paul described salvation as a dramatic spiritual event with a clear before and after (Ephesians 2:1-2).

12. THE DANGER OF THE PRO-HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT

There is a rapidly growing tendency among popular Christian writers to accept unrepentant homosexuals as genuine Christians and to refuse to “judge” them.

Chris Seay, author of Faith of My Fathers, says churches are not “called to be moral police” and that we should “approach homosexuals without condemnation” (“Shayne Wheeler and Chris Seay on Homosexuals and the Church,” ChurchRelevance.com, June 19, 2007).

Donald McCullough says that “condemning homosexuality feels natural because about 95 percent of us could never imagine engaging in such a practice” but “in a world turned upside down by grace, we must distrust whatever feels natural” (If Grace Is So Amazing, Why Don’t We Like It, pp. 201, 202).

Dan Kimball says: “Because this is such a huge issue in our culture, and because all of the tension and discussion on this issue is over what the Bible says about it, we can no longer just regurgitate what we have been taught about homosexuality. … Homosexual attraction is not something people simply choose to have, as is quite often erroneously taught from many pulpits” (They Like Jesus but Not the Church, pp. 137, 138).

Philip Yancey was scheduled to be the keynote speaker at the Gay Christian Network’s annual Mountain Top Experience in January 2011. The other main speaker was “Rev.” Ann Phillips who “has been married for four years to her soulmate, Heather Wayne.” Obviously he will not be condemning their unrepentant sin. In a 2004 interview with Candace Chellew-Hodge for Whosoever, a homosexual publication, Yancy said, “When it gets to particular matters of policy, like ordaining gay and lesbian ministers, I’m confused, like a lot of people (“Amazed by Grace,” Whosoever online magazine).

Tony Campolo believes that homosexuals are usually born that way, that it is not a “volitional” issue, and they should be allowed to join churches and be ordained without renouncing homosexuality as such as long as they remain “celibate.” Campolo’s wife, Peggy, “argues that the church’s traditional teaching on homosexuality is mistaken–just as the church’s traditional teaching on the role of women, slavery, and divorce is also mistaken” (Wikipedia, source: “Straight But Not Narrow,” keynote address, Evangelicals Concerned, Western Region 1994, audio cassette). Peggy Campolo is a national leader of the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, which urges Baptist congregations to be supportive of homosexuals.

Brennan Manning identifies “homophobia” as “among the most serious and vexing moral issues of this generation” (Abba’s Child).

Brian McLaren says: “Frankly, many of us don’t know what we should think about homosexuality. … We aren’t sure if or where lines are to be drawn, nor do we know how to enforce with fairness whatever lines are drawn. … Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making pronouncements” (“Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question,” Jan. 23, 2006, .

13. THE DANGER OF HATING THE RAPTURE

Christian bookstores feature many writers that hate the doctrine of an imminent Rapture of the saints.

Tony Campolo hates dispensationalism and rejects the doctrine of Christ’s imminent return. He calls it “a weird little form of fundamentalism.” Speaking at the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship’s annual meeting in June 2003, Campolo said: “That whole sense of the rapture, which may occur at any moment, is used as a device to oppose engagement with the principalities, the powers, the political and economic structures of our age” (“Opposition to women preachers evidence of demonic influence,” Baptist Press, June 27, 2003).

Brian McLaren mocks the “fundamentalist expectations” of a literal second coming of Christ with its attendant judgments on the world and assumes that the world will go on like it is for hundreds of thousands of years (A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 305). He calls the literal, imminent return of Christ “pop-Evangelical eschatology” (Generous Orthodoxy, p. 267) and the “eschatology of abandonment” (interview with Planet Preterist, Jan. 30, 2005, . McLaren says that the book of Revelation is not a “book about the distant future” but is “a way of talking about the challenges of the immediate present” (The Secret Message of Jesus, 2007, p. 176).

Mark Driscoll mocks the idea of a rapture for believers and a one-world government with an Anti-christ who makes people wear a mark to buy, sell or trade (Confessions of a Reformissional, pp. 49-50). He added that this kind of end-time ‘mission’ was not a message from Jesus but rather one ‘concocted from a cunning Serpent’” (“Mark Driscoll Rejects McLaren but Embraces Contemplative,” Jan. 11, 2008, . Driscoll also mocks the imminent Rapture doctrine. He claims that the Rapture doctrine is evidence of the sickness of American Christians and mocks those who have the goal of leaving “this trailer park of a planet before God’s tornado touches down on all the sinners” (The Radical Reformission, p. 78). He calls dispensationalists “nutty, Christian, end-times-prophecy Kaczynskis” (p. 165). [Ted Kaczynski was the “Unabomber” terrorist who murdered three people and maimed 23 others in his 18-year-long campaign against modern technology.]

Dan Kimball describes how that he rejected dispensational theology and the doctrine of an imminent Rapture to his current position, that “the kingdom of God is here, now” (Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches, pp. 87-90, 102).

Ed Stetzer says it is wrong to worry about whether the Rapture is coming. “When the disciples had an inordinate interest in the end times, much like we do today in North America among evangelicals, Jesus said, ‘Do not get focused on that’” (Breaking the Missional Code, p. 40). He is referring to Acts 1:6-8, but Jesus was not talking there about the timing of the Rapture but about the coming of the kingdom of God. The disciples were expecting the kingdom to be set up immediately, but Jesus told them to focus rather on preaching the gospel and leave the timing of the kingdom to Him. This passage corrects the emerging church doctrine that we are building the kingdom of God in the world today, but it does not support the idea that we shouldn’t be concerned about the imminent return of Christ.

14. THE DANGER OF OTHER MISCELLANEOUS HERESIES AND HERETICS

Consider the popular author C.S. LEWIS. He (1) Promoted ecumenism. (In the book Mere Christianity he said that Christianity is a large house with many different acceptable rooms, such as Catholicism, Protestantism, etc.) (2) He denied the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (3) He believed in theistic evolution. (5) He rejected the Bible as the infallible Word of God. (5) He denied the doctrine of an eternal fiery hell. (5) He believed in prayers for dead and confessed his sins to a priest. (6) He claimed that followers of pagan religions can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ: “There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence … Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position” (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, HarperSanFrancisco edition, 2001, pp. 64, 208, 209).

Lewis’s The Chronicles of Narnias intertwines a few vague biblical themes with pagan mythology: nymphs, fauns (part man and part goat), dwarfs, centaurs (part man and part horse), Dryads (tree-women), and Naiads (well-women). All of these creatures are depicted as serving Aslan, the alleged Christ figure. Lewis presents the deeply heretical idea of good magic. He calls Aslan’s power “Deep Magic” and Aslan’s father’s power as “Emperor’s Magic.” He introduces the pagan god Bacchus and his orgies as a desirable thing. He presents the myth of “Father Christmas.” He teaches that Adam’s first wife was not Eve but rather a woman named Lilith and that she was a witch.

Consider NORMAN VINCENT PEALE. He died in 1994 but his books are still popular. In an interview with Phil Donahue in 1984, Peale said: “It’s not necessary to be born again. You have your way to God; I have mine” (Hugh Pyle, Sword of the Lord, Dec. 14, 1984). In an interview with Modern Maturity magazine, December-January 1975-76, Peale was asked if people are inherently good or bad. He replied: “They are inherently good–the bad reactions aren’t basic. Every human being is a child of God and has more good in him than evil–but circumstances and associates can step up the bad and reduce the good. I’ve got great faith in the essential fairness and decency–you may say goodness–of the human being.”

Consider ROBERT SCHULLER. In his book Self Esteem New Reformation Schuller says, “It is shallow and insulting to define sin as rebellion against God,” and, “Positive Christianity does not hold to human depravity, but to human inability,” and, “Hell is the loss of pride that follows separation from God,” and “Jesus never called a person a sinner.” (See the article “Evangelicals and Heretic Robert Schuller” at the Way of Life web site for documentation.)

Consider BRUCE WILKINSON. His A Prayer of Jabez has been turned into a marketing bonanza. There is a Prayer of Jabez for women and one for the overweight. There are Prayer of Jabez teddy bears, book markers, bracelets, Bible covers, posters, coins, and shawls. In this book Wilkinson said: “I want to teach you how to pray a daring prayer that God ALWAYS answers. It is brief–only one sentence with four parts–and tucked away in the Bible, but I believe it contains they key to a life of extraordinary favor with God. Thousands of believers who are applying its truths are seeing MIRACLES happen on a regular basis” (Preface).

Consider G.K. CHESTERTON (1874-1936). This Roman Catholic writer continues to have a large influence. Not only did he promote Rome’s ancient sacramental heresies, he accepted theistic evolution (Orthodoxy, p. 30). A 2001 edition of Orthodoxy has an introduction by Philip Yancy that explains Chesterton’s attraction for this generation. Yancy says, “Chesterton seemed to sense instinctively that a stern prophet will rarely break through to a society full of religion’s ‘cultured despisers’; he preferred the role of jester. … In a time when culture and faith have drifted even further apart, we could use his brilliance, his entertaining style, and above all his generous and joyful spirit. When society becomes polarized, as ours has, it is as if the two sides stand across a great divide and shout at each other. Chesterton had another approach: He walked to the center of a swinging bridge, roared a challenge to any single combat warrior, and then made both sides laugh aloud” (Orthodoxy, Image Books, 2001, p. xix). The fact that this is not the type of “prophet” or the type of defense of the faith that we see in Scripture doesn’t bother the emerging church one iota.

Consider LESSLIE NEWBIGIN (1909-1998). He was a bishop in the very liberal Church of South India and was Associate General Secretary in the radically heretical World Council of Churches. In The Gospel in a Pluralist Society Newbigin denied that the Bible is the verbally-plenarily inspired Word of God and said the 18th century defenders of the faith were in error when they taught that the Bible is a set of timeless truths. Newbigin falsely claimed that Jesus did not leave behind “a book, nor a creed, nor a system of thought, nor a rule of life” (p. 20). Newbigin wrote, “All so-called facts are interpreted facts. . . What we see as facts depends on the theory we bring to the observation” (The Gospel in a Pluralist Society, p. 21). Newbigin called the split between liberals and fundamentalists “tragic” (p. 24). He taught that there is the possibility of salvation apart from faith in Christ.

Consider PAUL WILLIAM YOUNG, author of The Shack, which is about redefining God. It is about a man who becomes bitter at God after his daughter is murdered and has a life-changing experience in the very shack where the murder occurred; but the God he encounters is most definitely not the God of the Bible. Young’s depicts God the Father as a black woman who loves rock & roll. Young’s god is the god of the emerging church. He is cool, loves rock & roll, is non-judgmental, does not exercise wrath toward sin, does not send unbelievers to an eternal fiery hell, does not require repentance and the new birth, and puts no obligations on people. (See “The Shack’s Cool God” at the Way of Life web site, http://www.wayoflife.org.)

CONCLUSION

We could give many more examples of dangers in Christian bookstores, but this should be sufficient for the wise. We must remember that the last days are c

I was wondering, would we have been able to know all these things without the internet? You can not trust the Church or “Christian” bookstores to give the truth. The only way is to start really reading the Bible from start to finish and not let traditions or other people’s opinions influence you.

Estelle, haven’t you heard Jesse Duplantis’ account of his trip to heaven? Quite detailed. And quite authentic I’m sure. Right. Authentic lies of demonic spirits in Jesse’s head.

This little boy is headed for a lifetime of trouble and this is a real tragedy.

Polly,
I’m not that in to books or tv :), so haven’t even heard this Jesse guy preach.
I read one of his articles a while back, saying something that Jesus wanted a “new” donkey to sit and ride on, in so justifying that he can get a car that no one else has sit on (a very very expensive one) :).
I wouldn’t believe a word he says…

Thanks for the insightful view..Saves me a read…Blessings Darrell

I was wondering what bible you suggest reading. I see that you and others were saying that the King James version is the one that you read, but I feel like I would have a hard time understanding what it is truly saying and I really want to learn the TRUTH as much as I can. I have been a christian all my life in the protestant faith, but have fallen away from it for many years and I am trying to get back to my faith. Its hard now a days to know who to believe, if you can trust the churches, books, bibles. Its all very scary to me and I just want the truth. Can you please help me in any way? I would really appreciate it. Thanks

[EDITED by DTW: Please read here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/08/13/what-is-kjv-only/%5D

You people don’t seem to have much knowledge in the prophetic and what it’s like to receive visions which are personal and symbolic in nature from the Lord to the vessel HE chooses. Stop being so legalistic and stop putting God in your man-made box. God can do anything HE wants and speak anyway HE wants to ANYBODY! You are being judgmental instead of knowledgeable and prideful instead of humble. It is YOU who are under the lies of the devil and your lack of knowledge and petty words will bring a church down. STOP IT! For the one who wrote this useless article, How can you compare a vision today with what Paul had? Are you so ignorant? Why don’t you throw your cars in the dump because they are not in the bible either? Do you get it yet? If not you should really ask the Lord to reveal the prophetic to you you rather than trashing people on the internet. Shame on you all for dividing the church and slandering God’s chosen. The Lord isn’t sleeping and will not be mocked!

One of the very worst parts of the book is the direct attack on the resurrection. Colton asked his father where Pop-Pop was buried and he told him in Kansas City. Then, in the following chapter, Colton tells his dad that Pop-Pop has a new body. Impossible nonsense, unless his grave in Kansas city is now broken up and the coffin emptied of its bones, meaning everyone else of us has missed it. Paul calls teachings that the resurrection has past gangrene. That’s about what this book amounts to.

I emailed Todd Burpo asking him about this last July (not wanting to get into everything else in the book). Of course, no response.

Stan

THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT IS BEING LEFT OUT FROM ALL OF THIS IS THAT COLTON IS A CHILD, THE WAY THINGS ARE EXPLAINED AND SAID BY A CHILD ARE DIFFERENT FROM AN ADULT. CHILDREN SAY IT HOW THEY SEE IT WITHOUT TRYING TO BE SPECIFIC, EXAGERATTED OR DETAILED IN ANY WAY. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SPOKEN DIFFERENTLY OUTSIDE “BIBLE CONTEXT” DOES NOT MAKE IT FALSE. SORRY BUT A 4 YEAR OLD IS NOT GOING TO SPEAK IN KING JAMES VERSION LANGUAGE. SOME PEOPLE JUST TAKE THINGS WAY OUT OF CONTEXT AND OVER ANALYZE MISSING THE REAL MESSAGE. THERES A VERSE IN THE BIBLE IM NOT SURE WHERE IT MIGHT BE CORINTHIANS (SORRY IM NOT SPECIFIC) WHERE IT STATES THAT IN THE END OF DAYS YOUNG PEOPLE WILL HAVE DREAMS CHILDREN WILL HAVE VISIONS AND SO ON… SOMEWHERE ALONG THOSE LINES AND ALSO IT IS TRUE IF WE DONT BECOME LIKE CHILDREN AND STOP OVER ANALYZING JESUS WE MAY NEVER ENTER HEAVEN, WE ARE MISSING THE BIG PICTURE BECAUSE WE ARE TO BUSY CRITIZING THE COLOR DETAIL! GET IT! ENJOY JESUS, GET STARTED ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM NOT A CAREER OUT OF HIS WORD TO SLAM OTHERS WHICH IM SURE HE DID NOT WANT. ANOTHER THING THE BIBLE MENTIONS WHAT GOOD IS KNOWLEDGE IF IS BEING MISUSED OR NOT USED AT ALL. kNOWLEDGE WONT GET YOU TO HEAVEN….

“We watch them on TBN, Daystar, GOD TV, u name it, shocking most of the times to hear what is being preached as truth”

yeah, totally! Preaching religion and bible as truth is shocking not only for you. Praise be His Noodliness, Ramen!

John 4 21 Jesus declard “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth”
If these books are so devilish how come it warns people not to go to hell and to repent of their sins. What do you really want to say about his sister and grandfather he saw, which remember he did not knew about? Was it two demons acting as his sister and grandfather – really???! We are not Catholics but born again God fearing people and we also believe in sin confession and restitution and it is the best thing any Christian can do regularly to get that pure heart we all need to enter Heaven. I my be wrong but you just sound so much like a Jehova Witness or Seven day Adventis or one of those other dead churches type of person that all sinners wants to flee from before they ever will desire to become like you!

I find that a lot of what your claiming doesn’t make much sense. Please note that this is my opinion, I don’t claim to know everything about the Bible or God’s ways. You should also admit that, unless you are guilty of pride.

Whether or not this kid did visit Heaven, I don’t see how it can be satanic like you are so quick to claim. If something isn’t clearly explained in the Bible do you automatically claim it to be satanic? If so, many things would be satanic. I don’t see any mention of websites in the bible, does that make your site satanic?

A story like this could point many people to the true gospel. The boys babysitter had her faith renewed because of his story of her little sister. And you say that is satanic. How and why would Satan do anything that would potentially lead even one person to faith in Jesus Christ? That is outside of his nature.
I think a site like this could be much more damaging to people’s faith than anything you write against. What if someone believed this boys story, and was led to Christ and became born again. They then come to your site and read your article in which you attack the thing that led them to faith. They could end up seeing it was all nonsense and throw away their faith. Sure, they may have had weak faith, but you led them away. How would you feel if that happened? You constantly point a finger and attack in a seemingly unloving manner. Divisions and disagreements like this are what has torn the church apart. Yes, the Bible tells us to rebuke and correct, but carefully out of respect.

Also, I can not find any scriptural evidence for a pre-trib rapture.
Read 2 Thess 2:1-3 “..with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (the rapture), let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.”

Acts 24:15 “There shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked together”

Rev 20:4 “And I saw the souls of those who had been be-headed because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the Word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his marks on their foreheads or their hands.”

It is clear from scripture that believers will remain on earth through the great tribulation. At the end, those who are dead will rise and those alive will have changed bodies and meet in the sky with Jesus. Together with Jesus they will rid the world of evil and the New Jerusalem will be established.

Continue to read and study His word and you will learn more and more everyday

Deborah,
Thanks for the review of this book. I read it, and the whole time I was reading it I knew something was “off.” The same with “90 Minutes in Heaven.” So many Christian friends hail these books, and similar ones, and Joyce Meyer, and … oh, it’s so overwhelming and discouraging sometimes. We are all at such a great risk of falling if we don’t know the truth, what’s in the Bible. I’m always the first to doubt myself, and think that I must be the one in the wrong, because after all, “who am I?”. But it’s nice to find support here, and encouragement in my beliefs… Thank you.
P.S. I also read “The Shack.” Told myself it was just “entertainment” but felt kinda sick about even giving it the time of day. I’ve gotta stop doing that!

Sherry, you are absolutely right. There are many “pastors” who are misleading their flocks or are remaining silent and not alerting them to the dangers of the day, the traps and snares that are all around, even in the so-called “Christian” bookstores. They are not a ministry, they are a business. They carry merchandise and that merchandise has to please the eyes of the readers, not challenge them to live a sacrificial life for Christ.

The Shack, The Harbinger, The Message, The Chronicles of Narnia, it goes on and on.

My rule of thumb is that the author or expositor has to be home in heaven before I consider their works. They are what they were and there are many treasures out there just waiting to be found. But one has to search for them.
My favorites are H.A. Ironside and Clarence Larkin who believed with all their hearts in the Blessed Hope. I have been inspired by their commentaries as a companion to my Bible. Ironside has a couple of little devotional books that are just chock full of gems. I do not elevate them to pedestals, but I do believe they were Spirit-led and that the Lord intended for their works to help us in our Christian walk.

In case you are interested, I put the link here because it is rather difficult to find.

Their prices are quite reasonable for hardcover books.

He obviously started allowing leaven with quoting that counterfeit christian, C.S. Lewis, so revered by a huge % of the Christian populace. And his children’s books that are filled with the occult and disgusting symbolism. Calling Aslon the lion a type of Christ! Blasphemous!!!

I think I might know the person you are speaking of, maybe A.R.? If that is the case, I think his programs are still airing on TBN.

We have to be SO careful not to elevate any human above scrutiny, don’t we? And we can never let down our guard. Even with my favorite “dead guys” I lean upon the Holy Spirit and if my Spirit does not bear witness, that is a red flag.

Thank you for your comments – and your exhortations. Much appreciated!

I know what you mean, David. It screams “false” to any biblically literate person.
Some pseudo-Christian writers are a lot more subtle, though. They are really good (from a negative side) at blending Scripture with falsehood. Then we have to really think hard and start seriously comparing Scripture with what’s been written. If Christians fall for this blatant money-spinner, I worry for them when it comes to the subtle stuff.
I myself fell for “The Prayer of Jabez,” simply because Jabez’s prayer is in the Bible.
Some of C.S. Lewis’ stuff is pretty impressive too because he was also a great logician and, I’m fairly certain, a genuine person.
In the past, I didn’t bother too much with his fantasy as I felt it was being used for satirical reasons–like Swift’s “Gulliver’s Travels”–so not meant to be taken literally. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” is exceptional in its imagery and symbolism. And, I have to admit, he made some excellent points with the symbolism. I accepted that the view of hell in the book was not meant to be taken literally. He shows that by ending on the fact that it was all a dream.
But I’ve had to re-evaluate Lewis’ writings too. It all comes back to 1 Thess 5:21 and 1 John 4:1. We must always be on our guard. We are not immune from deception.

I have had my speculations about the book, but I would also be very careful how you tread. Up until a little while ago, we were interpreting Revelations very wrong, and to this day I still dont think we have it totally right. Look how and elderly John described things he saw in heaven, very weird and funky.
I think you also have to watch bring your own Calvinistic theology into the discussion ie.”What would happen if either Todd or Sonja were to reject the Gospel? Would the little sister’s hope be crushed?” So correct if I am wrong but by what you wrote,you believe that people can lose there salvation. Whereas I believe that if Todd and Sonja reject the gospel it is because they never accepted it in the first place and there belief and faith is a lie based on works, not in Christ Jesus.

Derek, how in the world could you ever come to the conclusion that Deborah is Calvinist?

And be careful how one treads when exposing lies of Satan? And comparing a book of the Bible and John the Revelator to a book written by a human who has been deceived by Satan to believe in necromancy?

Unknown… believe what?

MaryJaney, I recommend that you take out your Bible and read it and put down all the other books you have been reading.

The Bible gives no evidence for people taking trips to heaven for special revelation EXCEPT for John the Revelator who was led by the Holy Spirit and ordained by God to do so.

In fact, the Bible warns about following false prophets and false spirits who are demonic.

My dear, you are the one who should be careful.

Whew! Hell hath no fury like a deceived & gullible woman! Good grief Mary Janey. First of all you come to a site and because you don’t agree with truth you attack Deborah.
Second of all is this how you are to treat either a younger or old woman? Let’s see what Paul told Timothy: 1Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 1Timothy 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. Your “tone” didn’t have much purity. Third of all, it’s ok to disagree but let’s do it a touch towards being “Christ-like.” Fourth of all you say you believe anyone who tell you that they have seen Jesus Christ? Now your ignorance of the Scripture is showing. Fifth of all you credit God for giving this little boy this vision. Do you not understand just how evil satan is. HE is using this little boy’s story to deceive the gullible and thereby drag them down to hell.

You should thank God for a site like this that exposes the “unfruitful works of darkness.” That’s in scripture in case you didn’t know. Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Ephesians 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Your are not “trying the spirits” and have set yourself up to be further deceived. I said further because you are already somewhat deceived. 1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

If you are strong enough to handle the Truth then I’m sure Deborah would love for you to stay here. But you’re not strong enough of a Christian to handle the truth yet.

No, I do not know Deborah. She is in the African Continent. I am an American, so there is no way we’ve met.

MARYJANEY wrote:

I HAVE JUST SUBSCRIBED TO THIS WEBSITE WITHOUT HAVING READ ALL THE BLOGS AND COMING ACROSS THIS EVIL BLOGGING BY DEBORAH HAS TURNED ME OFF JOINING THIS SITE. YOU ARE A PRIDEFULL PERSON DEBORAH AND JUST HOW DO YOU ARRIVE AT THE CONCLUSION THAT GOD IS NOT DOING WHAT THIS LITTLE BOY HAS TOLD PEOPLE???????? YOU HAD BETTER BE VERY VERY CAREFUL ABOUT WHOM YOU CRITIZE BECAUSE YOU HAVE JUST CRITIZED GOD’S WORKINGS. I HAVE READ MANY BOOKS DATING BACK TO THE 18TH CENTURY OF FOLK WHO HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO HEAVEN AND TO HELL AND I WOULDN’T HAVE THE AUDACITY TO CRITIZE SOMETHING THAT COULD BE THE TRUTH. IN FACT I DO BELIEVE EVERYONE THAT TELLS ME THEY SAW JESUS AND HEAVEN OR THEY SAW HELL BECAUSE I HAVE NO PROOF THAT THEY DIDN’T. I DARE YOU PRINT THIS.

Maybe someone already said this so if they did sorry. The scars in the wrists (a part of the hand) and the scar in his side are the only “Man Made” things in heaven.

Blessings upon you oh Deborah. You will receive the “Spelling-Bee” star on your Crown in heaven! :o)

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

Sharon

LOL, I fixed some of dem spelling errors before I read this comment ;P

Sharon, oh yes, there was substance to the oldies like this, unlike the mindless repetition and mantra-like offerings of today’s worship. So many of the new songs are self-focused and not really worship. And some of the lyrics are just inane such as one of the popular ones that goes like this:

God’s love is like a hurricane and I am a tree –

Right – God’s love is destructive? Blaspheous emergent garbage!! This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread except that it makes as much sense as the book in question.

End of rant.

Time for a new song. Here we go:

My Hope is Built on Nothing Less”
by Edward Mote, 1797-1874

1. My Hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.

On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

2. When darkness veils His lovely face,
I rest on His unchanging grace;
In every high and stormy gale
My anchor holds within the veil.

On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

3. His oath, His covenant, and blood
Support me in the whelming flood;
When every earthly prop gives way,
He then is all my Hope and Stay.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

4. When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found,
Clothed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne!

On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

They which have no HOPE are the poorest of all. (My comment)

I just read these remarks and will now delete this site from my saved sites. All of the bible quotes were great.

We can dispute each other until Jesus returns, and what will that gain? I bid you Gods peace.

… was that Rick… Warren or Joiner?

Cassandra, the KJV is written on the 7th grade level. Yes there are a few old words but there are online KJV dictionaries. Don’t be afraid of the KJV; it has stood the test of time. May 6,2011 was the 400th anniversary of the KJV. I personally believe that more souls have been won to Christ because of the reliability of the KJV. Satan hates it, and Rome absolutely hates it because it lays all of their false teaching completely open.

I am in the process of studying why I use the KJV. Perhaps I will post an article when I am done processing all of the articles I have. When King James commissioned that a new English Bible be made little did he know the far reaching fruit this Bible would be used. The translators were highly educated and like the King himself spoke fluent Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and others as well. These men believed that they were handling and translating the total “Word of God.” I’ve been made fun of for using the KJV and that is fine because the one who makes fun of any scriptural teaching doesn’t know what I know and I also want to know more. Get you a good KJV and here are some websites: But be careful there are wolves every where.

1. http://www.biblestudytools.com/

2. http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/kjv-dictionary-index.html

3. http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm

I hope I have helped you. Be at Peace, His peace.

Cassandra wrote:

I was wondering what bible you suggest reading. I see that you and others were saying that the King James version is the one that you read, but I feel like I would have a hard time understanding what it is truly saying and I really want to learn the TRUTH as much as I can. I have been a christian all my life in the protestant faith, but have fallen away from it for many years and I am trying to get back to my faith. Its hard now a days to know who to believe, if you can trust the churches, books, bibles. Its all very scary to me and I just want the truth. Can you please help me in any way? I would really appreciate it. Thanks

[EDITED by DTW: Please read here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/08/13/what-is-kjv-only/

Deborah — not so discerning — just saw this in the General description of your blog —

“If you don’t understand what it written please consult the Word of God (remembering to read it correctly, in context, with no twisting of scripture).”

Presumably your words!! Why don’t you practice what you preach? No twisting, in context?!!

This is just hateful. This is a four year old trying to describe things that are almost impossible to describe even for an adult. So etimes you have to take things on faith. How dare anyone discount what this child has said he has seen. He saw things that he should or could not have seen. But facts were verified. You cannot shred and take apart things you have not seen or encountered. You have no idea what that child saw. Why wouldn’t a child be scared not knowing where he is and why couldn’t the angels sing for him to calm him. Moms sing to their children every day to calm them . Jesus say let the children come to him. God is about love and grace, I didn’t find that here.

On the other hand, Deborah, you’ve assumed in Item 1 that just because one is seated in Jesus’ lap that they will not have fear. But look at Rev 17:17 “for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.” So even though they are in the presence of The Lamb, who leads them to the springs of the water of life, they STILL have tears in their eyes – no doubt resulting from what they’ve been through. So I can see how a boy moving from acute appendicitis to the lap of Jesus could still have fear. I think your first assumption is weak.

If I may just interject something. I am a pagan, just so you know. Yet it would appear that I know more of the Bible than you do, kind sir. I can point to passages in Ruth, Psalms and Malachi that refer to your god’s wings. Also your complaint about idolatry is pure hypocrisy. How many crosses are there in your church? *cough* hypocrite *cough*. I honestly think you’re just a hater who doesn’t know as much as he says he does. Also your view that Catholics aren’t true Christians is the most absurd accusation I’ve heard yet! Your Christ said that only one who works with the Holy spirit can cast out demons. Do you not know just how many exorcisms are performed by Catholic priests? I’m not going to continue trying to drill sense into your thick skull so in conclusion I say, ‘Goodbye, I hope you aren’t to wounded by the fact that a 15 year old just schooled you in your own religion.’

Just for the record some run, some don’t. Do I look like I’m running? I mean no offense to anyone. Although, I take offense to the arrogance in your comment, ‘My little friend of 15’. By the way, nice come back with the ‘Lord, Lord’ reference. My question to you is, how do you know you’re not one of those people?

Trashy. Your tearing apart a “vision” that a young boy had. Who is anyone to say how/when/why Christ would appear to anyone, or how that situation would play out? Not to mention utilizing “scripture” to back up your “belief” that this is all a lie… really? You think the Christ from the book of Revelations is the Christ that would appear to A CHILD WHO IS SCARED??? Unless you have personally had an experience in heaven and sat with him yourself, I think you should remember the scripture about “he who cast the first stone”…. see where I’m going? Not one person should judge this child or his family for writing down his account. Is it all accurate? Probably not. He’s a child. Children generally over do things. But before you down, dis, tear down, or generally call a fellow Christian a liar, you should really look at how YOU know, with 100 percent certainty that; 1. You know he’s lying. 2. You know exactly what Jesus looks like, from the day he was resurrected to the present day, preferably on a daily basis so you can get the exact time frame and compare it to make sure the time tables line up. 3. That you, in your ignorant disassembling of what someone could consider a blessed story whether fiction or not that you YOURSELF are not driving this child, his family, or ANYONE else that read the book AWAY from Christ because you are building doubts in THEIR minds about it with YOUR presumed ideals…

And by the way, I say all of this as a non-christian. I’m a gay guy. I don’t believe the same way you do, most of the world has different beliefs and such. The PROBLEM isn’t religion, it isn’t in who’s right or wrong… the problem lies with people like yourself, who tear others down who SHARE THE SAME BELIEFS YOU DO! How is this even remotely tempting for a non-believer to see this and them be drawn toward the Lord? If anything, all the bickering, fussing, and accusations on this site would drive them to do just the opposite.

Thank you for your time, unfortunately I won’t get mine back for reading the article/comments, and at least my response was short, so I didn’t waste near as much of yours. Besides, I can tell your very busy… ya know, with kid bashing and all.

Are you a member of Westborough?

It is amazing to me that you can feel you have the Spirit of Christ as you have such a condesending arrogant attitude. Definitly not the Spirit of Christ for sure. Even if this young man is deceived, which I am not saying he is, your spirit is not of Christ and your twisting of scripture to justify your believe is astounding. You portray a spirit of the Phaisees. Try the fruit of the Spirit, kindness, gentleness, longsuffering maybe a little selfcontol would help also.

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

SCARLETTE NESTOR

>> THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT IS BEING LEFT OUT FROM ALL OF THIS IS THAT COLTON IS A CHILD, THE WAY THINGS ARE EXPLAINED AND SAID BY A CHILD ARE DIFFERENT FROM AN ADULT. CHILDREN SAY IT HOW THEY SEE IT WITHOUT TRYING TO BE SPECIFIC, EXAGERATTED OR DETAILED IN ANY WAY. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SPOKEN DIFFERENTLY OUTSIDE “BIBLE CONTEXT” DOES NOT MAKE IT FALSE.

Of course it makes it FALSE, my goodness what planet do you hail from? The one where children can’t be used by Satan??

The CATCH is that Satan is using a CHILD to catch people like you into thinking that a child could not be used by Satan to serve his own purposes.

Wow, what a bunch of Pompous, opinionated, self righteous Bible parroting piss poor examples of so called Christians. You make the Pharisees look like Archangels. NONE of you have been to Heaven. NONE of you have seen JESUS face to face and certainly, none of you have a clue as to what really happened.

I read this book. I thought it was AWESOME. What Colton went thru would have put you all in the all too deserved cold grave. NO ONE is worshipping this ‘book’. NO ONE is worshipping Colton, his father or anyone for that matter.

The Bible is rife with stories where GOD uses the least to do his work. Colton is a very fine example. An extremely little child from NoWhere Nebraska. If but one (1) person is saved through this, then GOD’s will is done.

You limit GOD to a book. Do any of you ‘believe’ GOD is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and that NOTHING is impossible for GOD?

Colton’s experience is an Inspiration to me and obviously to many, many others as well. This experience and the likes of The Perfect Truth (whom you also tore a new one) only solidifies my Faith, Trust and Love for JESUS CHRIST. HE is the Light, the Way and the Truth. YOU are nothing!

I am sorry, but I will put my trust in the LORD to show me the way. It’s time you people get out of the African sun and see the REAL LIGHT of JESUS CHRIST!

Well written. We are called to discern and the contextual scriptures are our guide. There are many places where we are warned of false Jesus’s etc. I find it sad that when you try and point out truth based on scriptures that you are somehow bashing a child. His parents are at fault. Just shows me how sadly ignorant people are

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

rog,

Colton’s experience is an Inspiration to me and obviously to many, many others as well. This experience and the likes of The Perfect Truth (whom you also tore a new one) only solidifies my Faith, Trust and Love for JESUS CHRIST. HE is the Light, the Way and the Truth. YOU are nothing!

If you are prepared to vouch your faith on the experience of someone else, then you should ask yourself if you are truly saved. Your above statement alone is proof that the whole thing is NOT true. Faith is never based on experience or sight, let alone on the experience of someone else like a little boy.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1)

I urge you to do the following.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Co 13:5)

NOwhere did I ever indicate my ‘faith’ was based on this child.

“Your above statement alone is proof that the whole thing is NOT true.”

NOT true of what?

You never answered my question: Do any of you ‘believe’ GOD is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and that NOTHING is impossible for GOD?

I truly don’t believe you do.

Not only are you ‘bashing’, but you are judging as well…

You shit flinging Protestants with no real knowledge of scripture make me sick. You take Sacred Scripture and you twist it to make it seem to agree with your heretical teachings, and you’ve always done just that ever since Luther took seven books out of the Bible. Guess what the Catholic Church compiled and preserved the Bible for a millennia you insufferable twats. Also the rapture is a Protestant modern lie. Oh well, I don’t believe the kid really went to Heaven either but this article really was hysterical I couldn’t tell if it was real but I laughed my ass off hahahahaha

“Show me a single verse in Scripture where we are told to pray to Mary?”

To answer that, read the last verse of the Gospel of St. John. “But there are also many other things that Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written”

There is a lot of stuff that wasn’t written down. That’s why we have Tradition. Not everything is in the Bible.

Here’s a couple of things to read

Read Mark 13:31 – heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus’ Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible (by the Catholic Church), and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Catholic Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

Read Mark 16:15 – Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally.

Read Mark 3:14; 16:15 – Jesus commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. Jesus gives no commandment to the apostles to write, and gives them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn’t He have said a word about it?

Read Luke 10:16 – He who hears you (not “who reads your writings”), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.

Read Luke 24:47 – Jesus explains that repentance and forgiveness of sins must be preached (not written) in Christ’s name to all nations. For Protestants to argue that the word of God is now limited to a book (subject to thousands of different interpretations) is to not only ignore Scripture, but introduce a radical theory about how God spreads His word which would have been unbelievable to the people at the time of Jesus.

And also regarding praying to Mary. Prayer is also speaking or talking. Praying does not necessarily mean “worship”. So when we pray “to” Mary we are talking to her and asking her to take our requests and petitions to God.

Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Say a friend came up to you and said hey my mom is dying of cancer can you say a prayer for her during this hard time. Would tell your friend to have his mother pray to God herself?? I think not. If we can pray for others and ask them to pray for us then why can’t we ask the Mother of God pray for us? She’s in Heaven right there with God!! “Pray for us most holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ”

As you see, we are entrusting ourselves to Mary so that she may plead to God on our behalf.

As for calling Mary our advocate.

Here is the definition of advocate: a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy.

So like I said before, we are asking Mary to take our petitions to God and recommend us to Him. Nothing wrong with that. It’s up to God to decide what He wants to do after that. So why can’t He grant favors through his Saints. We don’t believe Mary – by her “own” power – can do anything.

Those Saints you quoted that talked about Mary. They are just basically saying that they trust Mary will take their cause and pray to God for their salvation and that they have hope that God will listen to Her. That is why She is our Hope. She is our Hope that God will hear our prayers and save us. “She” is not “doing” the saving. God is. Again just like asking someone for help. Nothing wrong with that. If you had to ask a King a favor and you asked the Kings Mother to ask the King for you, don’t you think the King would be more likely to hear your request if it was requested by His own Mother? I think so.

Here’s something interesting to read – From the earliest days of the Church, Mary has been known for her great intercessory power. In the 3rd century (before the Bible was put together), Saint Irenaeus of Lyons described Mary as an “advocate”. Why do we need an advocate? Scripture tells us that we are all sinners and, one day, we will be judged for our actions. (Jesus is the judge) Just as in a court of law it would be foolish to try to defend ourselves, we need someone to stand beside us and defend us, someone who understands intimately the ways of God. That someone is Mary.

You may bring up a point about how we’re not supposed to pray to the dead. But that is nonsense. Mary and the Saints are not dead. They are very much alive and in Heaven. As we see when Jesus on the mountain at his Transfiguration was plainly talking with Moses and Elias. There is a difference between trying to conjure up spirits and asking the living Mother of God a favor.

Also, you do know that the Catholic Church is the one who put the Bible together? Also, how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is correct? Where does it say that in the Bible?

Jesus established only One Church. He says so. Matt 16: 18 – “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

He did not say I will build my “Churches”

There can only be One True Church and that Church has the Power and Authority through the Holy Spirit to interpret the Sacred Scriptures. If everyone one could interpret how ever they thought best then there would be Chaos. (as you can see by the thousands of protestant religions)

If you truly want to follow all of the teaching of Christ can I ask you a question? Do you eat and drink Christ’s Body and Blood? You do know that he commands us to?

Read John Chapter 6

“Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.”

“Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?”

“After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.”

We could go on and on but I will leave you with this final plead – please, again, for the love of God, do not call the The Blessed Virgin Mary those terrible things that you say that she is from Revelations. That, sadly, is your interpretation and an incorrect one at that.

Peace and God Bless.

– Aaron

Thomas Lessing . What you have said about our Blessed Mother is in fact incorrect and sacrilegious. You clearly have no knowledge of the Catholic Church, Our Lord and Savior, Our Blessed Mother, our beliefs and our faith. Your preconceived notions of our faith, is nowhere near the truth. Aaron is correct both in definitions and about Our Blessed Mother and I will try and elaborate on our Blessed mother.
What was the first miracle that Jesus ever did? Turning water into wine… Why did Jesus do this? John 2:3 “And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
Let us first remove one of the biggest incorrect protestant teachings about Jesus and our Blessed Mother. Jesus refers to his mother as “woman.” Many Protestants say that Jesus called his mother this to make it clear she is no better than any other woman. This idea translates to Jesus essentially putting his mother down. This is easily proven incorrect and even by using protestant teachings. Let me ask this question. Has Jesus ever sinned…? No, for he was perfect. Putting his mother down would be a sin against the 4th commandment: Honor thy Father and Mother. If Jesus didn’t sin, then calling her woman must have had more meaning. In the garden Genesis 3:15 “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: She shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. “
Mary is the woman that God is refereeing to and who Jesus is calling. Why, because through her seed we are saved and through this victory the serpents head was crushed. Also, Jesus is perfect in every way, not only did he not know sin he could not come from sin which also meant that his mother had to be free from sin. That is why God put enmities between her seed and the seed she bore, Jesus. For he is perfect!
Second. Jesus clearly states, “My hour has not yet come.” What does this mean? Simply put, it isn’t time for Jesus to begin his miracles. Yet, Jesus performs the miracle at his mother’s request. Why…? Because he loves her! And this also proves how powerful our Blessed Mother is when she is the one asking. Remember Aarons definition of praying.
It is a shame that you are blind to the goodness of our Blessed mother. Even the angel that visited Mary knelt before her. “Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among woman,” he said. Hail is what is said to Kings and Queens before kneeling. And, Mary was not yet with child. Why would an Angel kneel to a woman that you described to be so horrible? This shows your lack of knowledge and your lack of love of Christ by disgracing his mother. Jesus thought highly of his mother and he loved us so much that he gave us a great and powerful gift on the cross. Woman, behold thy son and to the disciple: Behold thy Mother. Even dying for our sins and redeeming those that wish to have it, he gave us another gift. He gave man (human race) the one thing he love more than anything, his mother.
You disgrace God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, when you speak so disgracefully of our Blessed Mother. “Mary was as much a sinner as Cain.” Please stop with your incorrect and delusional translations. Luke 1:41 Elizabeth filled with the Holy Ghost: “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come.” It is clear that Mary is more than any normal woman and the mother of John knew this and was so filled with the Holy Ghost. Who are you to deny the Holy Ghost?

You keep quoting Jeremiah. I read those chapters and no where does it say anything about Mary. It says not to worship false gods. We Catholics only worship God as I have previously explained in great detail. As for that line about the “queen of heaven” in Jeremiah – that was a goddess (the Moon) that the pagans worshiped. They were worshiping the Moon, a false god. And if you insist that it refers to Mary then can I ask who came up with that interpretation? Did you? If not you, then do you know by whom and in what year that idea came to be? As I previously explained the Sacred Scriptures can’t be interpreted by anyone and everyone or else there would be chaos. How would you know who has the right interpretation?

Again, we don’t believe that if we don’t pray to Mary we will go to hell. That is you misinterpreting the the devotions that the Saints had to Mary.

How can Mary be omnipresent to every Catholic? Mary is in Heaven. Heaven is not bound to the laws of time and space. Also, anything is possible with God. Are you doubting God’s power?

Acts 8: 30-31 “And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?” – And so Philip, (a Bishop of the Church), explains.

And yes I use the the Douay-Rheims version because it is approved by Christ’s Church. Who approved the Bible you read? How do you know it’s the right version? Where in the Bible does it tell you what version of the Bible is the correct one?

Also, I’m not adding anything to the Bible. I am showing what is passed on through Tradition. (which, again, I explained in detail)

Also, Mary was conceived without original sin as Joey (thank you) wonderfully explained.

“Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it” Um, that’s right, who kept the word of God better than Mary? That’s not a put down to Mary that’s a pat on the back if you ask me.

“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” – God is Mary’s saviour. He redeemed her by a special Grace – a sort of pre-conceived redemption if you will.

Imagine you are walking and there is a snake on the path ahead of you that you don’t see. Now say you get bitten (sin) and you are going to die but then this guy comes out of nowhere and picks you up, carries you to his car, and drives you to the hospital and you are saved in the nick of time. Clearly this guy saved your life. Now take the same example but this time the guy pops up right before you come upon the snake and pulls you back so you don’t get bitten. Well as you can see, this guy clearly saved you either way.
So it is with Mary.

How can we be deceived by the Church? Matt 16: 18 – “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” If the Church was teaching error then that would mean the gates of hell have prevailed. And that would mean that Jesus was a lier. If the Catholic Church is not the true Church then which one is?

Luke: 10:16 “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

If you do not hear the words of Church than you are not hearing Christ.

Please remember that I am not writing all this to try and “out do you” or to say I’m better than you or that I think you are going to hell or anything like that. I write this because you and all others need to know the Truth. If you choose not to believe than I can do nothing and will leave it up to God. May our Blessed Mother watch over you and lead you to her Son.

Peace and God Bless

– Aaron

Jeremiah only speaks of 1 because like I said before, he is talking about the moon goddess that the pagans worshipped at the time. Idols in heaven? Yeah, the pagans believed in a lot of gods in the heavens (“sky”, “space”). Your point holds no ground.

Did you know that in the ancient times of the Jews, a king’s mother was considered the queen. Jesus was a Jew and the King of Heaven and Earth, therefore His Mother is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Simple as that. a queen’s position and title do not lessen or infringe upon the king’s position and rule. common sense stuff here.

omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. All 3 have to go together? Says who? If God wants to allow Mary to be present to everyone who are you to decide if God can do that or not? Again, are you questioning God’s power?

Remember, Mary can do nothing without God. Just as it wasn’t by St. Peter’s own power that allowed him to walk on water or the cure people, it was through the Power of God. So if God allows Mary to be everywhere at once then that’s for God to decide, not you. You keep thinking we believe that Mary is doing all this by her own power. But that’s not what we believe as I’ve explained time and time again. That’s is just you wanting to believe that.

Joey and I have already explained how Mary WAS saved AND was conceived without sin. You obviously didn’t read it.

As for the Church, St. Peter and the Popes.

The Holy Spirit, through the Catholic Church, teaches that a Pope is infallible in regards to Faith and Morals. That is a Pope can never declare as doctrine something that is incorrect or full of errors. This does not mean that a Pope is sinless or can’t do bad things. He is a sinner like the rest of us. Just as St Peter sometimes did things wrong. But St. Peter nor any other Pope in History has ever led the Church astray when it came to Teachings on Faith and Morals. That is the promise of Christ when he talks about the gates of hell not prevailing. And like I said before. How do you know that your interpretation of that passage is correct? Where does it say in the Bible that we all can interpret the Bible? If that is the case and we all can interpret the Bible then that would conclude that all of our interpretation must be fine. If you are correct and I am correct then why does it matter to you what anyone else believes? You should be happy that we are all interpreting the Bible. Do you see why we need the Church to be the one to determine the correct interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures?

“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Pro 14:12)

That’s right. Don’t you see that that is what you are doing? You, a man, are saying “this way seems right to me”, But we need the Church, Established by Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit to show us the way.

And finally, this will be my final response as I see this is going now where. You do not seem to understand the basic logic that I am trying to show. I guess sometimes you just have to walk away.

“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you; going forth from thence, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony to them.”

I tried and now it is up to God to open you mind and heart.

Peace and God Bless

– Aaron

“Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.” Because who hears the word of God and keeps it better than Mary? Jesus Christ knew no one kept/keeps Gods word in Her Heart better than Mary His Mother. Again, Jesus Christ is Praising His Mother Mary even better than the woman above, and knowingly so.

You have no idea the power of Our Blessed Mother. She has the power to save souls, how. Simply by asking! Do you not see the importance of the wedding? It is not yet my time. Think of it as God’s Plan and it was not time for him to begin working miracles. Yet, our Lord cannot deny his mother. And even though it is not yet time, he did it anyway. Now in heaven, what would our Lord say to his mother if she was to say, please do not cast that soul into hell… He will refuse his mother nothing.

I know my Church’s teachings and they do not contradict the bible. Your interpretations do. It is you however that is ignorant of my faith and that of Our Lord. And even if you do not feel that Mary deserves that respect, she is still the mother of Jesus (GOD MAN) and even that deserves gratitude.

Do you not honor Moses, Abraham, or any of the disciples? Of course you do, yet the one person that carried our Savior in her womb deserves nothing from you. She is the Ark of the Covenant. She carried the Work of God, the Teachings of God, and the Bread of Life and you dare say I need to flee. I run -to our Mother for in her is our salvation, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Yes, I run to my Blessed Mother!!

As for my incorrect bible, does it matter who crushed the serpents head. Why did God put Enmities between her seed if she was not important? God did this and you deny her. If you deny her, than you deny Christ. If she didn’t crush the serpents head, she bore the one that could, so even indirectly she crushed it. The oldest translated bible is the Douay-Rheims Bible. Before Luther corrupted it by removing books that contradicted his beliefs, his ideas, his misinterpretations or Calvinist who added other books because he didn’t fully agree with Luther.
Historically, and this is FACT: No Church other than the Catholic Church can trace their origins to Christ. All other faiths -protestant faiths can only trace their beginnings to their founders and even they had to use the Catholic Bible to do so. There were no Lutherans when Christ was resurrected, no Baptist, or Mormons… etc. None were there during Pentecost. Not only were they not around but they weren’t around for 1600 hundred years. Every church is a break from the truth. That is fact. “I am the good shepherd and I know mine and mine know me. As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice and there shall be ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPHERD.” John 10:14.

My point that a man can err, but when speaking for the church…. He is infallable.

People make mistakes. JPII was trying to teach peace. He forgot that Jesus came to bring a sword. Though he is my Pope and I respect the position as it is a gift from our Father in heaven, however this was mistake. If he on the other hand spoke in behalf of the church, the outcome would have been totally different.

Are all protestants perfect? Is your pastor perfect? Do you read perfect? Are you going to tell me that everyone is perfect in your belief? I think not. Everyone sins… A just man sins seven times a day. That is a given. But do not mistake the err of a man as the err of the church. Regardless of his actions, the truth is still the truth and God’s Church is still here.

Oh, one last thing:

What proof do YOU have that Mary was NOT always perfectly good? I have the words of an Angel to give to you, but you very well know them. Then let me ask you: if Gabriel says she was highly in favor in God’s eyes, when did she start to be as such?
And note that, she was addressed as being highly in favor BEFORE she accepted to become the Mother of Jesus. Think about it. I’d say PRAY about it.

Thomas,

you accuse me of being the child while you make exactly that mistake!

You circumvent my observations all the time! Yes, because you always jump to scripture that simply enhances your fixation for the way you see things, which is only YOURS. I have 2000 years of history and billions of people that share my Faith. This is not simply fruit of my reasoning, even though I’ve had to reason through these things in order to fully believe.
Anyhow, do you understand me when I use simple words?! If I say that Jesus has 2 natures do we agree or not? Is He God? Yes, and I believe we agree. Is He man? Yes, and I believe we agree on this as well. Now, as MAN, NOT GOD, Jesus had to GROW right? He was fully man, exactly like us except for sin. Thus as MAN he was subject to limits, that’s why he felt hungry, tired and could die. As GOD he couldn’t do any of those things. Is it clear to you now? This is what I meant.

About Our Blessed Mother, you still deny a blatant fact you yourself stated: ” He intended to do the miracle anyway but in his time, and therefore would have delayed the performance of the miracle if Mary had not intervened and hastened his original plan.” So you do admit that He HASTENED because Mary asked, and of course you could not deny it BECAUSE THE PASSAGE SAYS JUST THAT!! This doesn’t mean that she was exercising power or authority and I agree with you that she showed Him respect but, above all, absolute trust, when she told the servants to do as He would tell them to. Stop taking for granted that we think of Mary being more than Jesus, more than God. That’s not what we believe. You’re fixated on the “logic” that only God is good thus if Mary is sinless this she’s good thus she’s God. This is absurd! You’re distorting all this to give strength to your argument. But it doesn’t hold water!
Thomas, don’t insult my intelligence even though you’re always full of negative remarks (which again, is unbecoming of a christian, but you continue with your unfriendly ways, forgive my saying but debating with you isn’t very pleasant: even though we may disagree it doesn’t mean you should make unhappy remarks about how I state my position. Just limit yourself to replying my questions and points and I’ll be happy). Admit that you are the one so firm on having to prove me wrong that you don’t even realize when you’re not making sense.
If there’s no remission without bloodshed, then I ask you: what did Jesus allow his apostles to do when the Sunday after His resurrection He breathed them the Holy Spirit and gave them the power to forgive and retain sins? Did He allow them to shed blood every time they forgave sins? I really would like to know what is your interpretation of this passage (Jn 20:22).
You have even given me proof of the interpretation from the Greek?!? Did you read my reply or not?! I fully answered you to that just as well, based on the Greek and I’ve proven to you that what was referred to Our Blessed Mother was an act of making her full of grace that had come to completion as opposed to the term referred to the believers as in Eph 1:6 where the verb represents an ongoing process. Do you yourself read my answers or only what you find convenient?!? Now I’m going to start giving you the same replies and use the same tone you use in your answers. Let’s see if you like it!
In Mt 5:48 Jesus says “”Therefore you are to be perfect, AS your heavenly Father is perfect”. We need to be not only good, but perfect. Does that make us God!?!? Come on!!! You want to take it literally? Ok: then Jesus would be asking us to be God! Of course he’s not! He’s asking us to take God as our model and strive for a holiness like His even if we would never be able to match Him! Right?!?!?
St. Peter says in his first letter “but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” 1 Pt 1:15.
You seem to fail to understand the difference between God and creature. It is not the attributes that makes someone a God or a creature, rather the substance, the nature! God is God, the Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier, while a creature is a creature! That doesn’t mean a creature can’t be holy! And if it is holy it doesn’t mean it is God!! Angels are holy yet they are not God! AND I HAD JUST STATED THAT THEY ARE NOT SINFUL PEOPLE YET YOU IGNORE MY ANSWERS OR READ THROUGH THEM! That passage you quoted on the fact that Jesus took upon our nature and not that of angels HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT I WAS MAKING. You are so fixated with what you see as so absurd that we regard Mary at such a privileged place that it just doesn’t allow you to see our reasons. Why does it have to be incompatible that Mary is by God exalted in such manner, despite remaining always a creature?! Why? You say she’s no longer Jesus’ mother? But do you listen to yourself? So what is it? Jesus just forgot she’s His mother? She was simply a container and a tutor and that’s it? Do you think God thinks the way you do?!?!?
You need to stop thinking that we’re taking the spotlight away from Jesus! We ARE NOT! Doesn’t He say “”Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” Mt 5:16?!?! (He says WORKS by the way!) He says that by seeing holy creatures, their Creator gets praised. This happens first and foremost with Mary! Jesus never puts her down, neither at Canaa nor when they tell Him that she’s waiting outside or that she was blessed for having breast fed Him. He always replies in the same way: Blessed are those who do the will of my Father! Who better than Mary?!!? “Be it done on to me according to thy word”!!!!

I’ve asked you to be reasonable, not to quote scripture in a blind spree and apply it in ways that are advantageous to your claims without taking full account of the things I quote! Reasonable means to analyze my position and give a respectful reply, not a dismissal full of contempt and indignation! I’ve done my best to take and consider your points reasonably and was happy to be challenged in my faith by them. That’s the best thing about apologetics. But you condemn Thomas. Beware of your ways because by the way you measure it shall be measure to you. That’s my personal advice. Then do as you please.

You also dodged my other observations. That is most disrespectful. Why don’t you answer the questions I ask you Thomas?
WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT WRITTEN WHICH BOOKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE BIBLE?! Sorry: CHANGE OF SUBJECT (so you don’t think I’m avoiding and dodging). Answer the question! WHERE and HOW did the early christians read their Bibles!?!? Answer!
Why does Paul tell Timothy that he should hold on to the TRADITIONS?!!?
St. Paul mentions tradition several times in his epistles, reminding both Timothy and the Thessalonians to stand fast to the traditions he taught them. In his Second Letter to Timothy, Paul wrote: “Take as a model of sound teaching what you have heard me say, in faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the rich deposit of faith with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (1:13-14). Later, in the same letter, he further instructs Timothy, “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2:1-2). It seems clear that the apostolic Tradition, the oral teaching of the apostles, was to be preserved and transmitted from generation to generation. St. Paul doesn’t write to Timothy and say, “This is all you need for salvation”; rather, he writes Timothy to entrust to other faithful men, who will be able to instruct others, what he preached, and Timothy heard, before many witnesses.
Oh and guess what? The famous passage where St. Paul states that Scripture is good to correct and so forth that you love and quote so much: he was talking about the OLD TESTAMENT because there was NO NEW TESTAMENT WRITTEN YET! Right?!?

So. You answer all these question TAKING ME SERIOUSLY and putting your bias aside for once and we can have an edifying confrontation. Otherwise save your time and occupation and busy yourself with something useful! Forgive my firmness, but I deem it necessary.

I haven’t read the entire point by point here yet, but it is such a relief to hear someone else say these things! I felt like I was alone among all my Christian friends who proclaim how great this story was (even CBN)! I bought the book, was troubled by it, and gave it to GoodWill! I probably should have burned it, in retrospect. Hooray for explaining the humans with “wings” in Heaven thing – that really bothered me! I felt other things were troubling too-including the father fighting in the Battle of Armagedon– it just seemed false.I did not think we joined in on that at all. But regardless, as much, as a woman, I would not mind letting others fight and me stay behind, it seemed very earthly thinking for the women and children to stay behind. We would all be just as able and strong – there is no male or female in Jesus Christ, so why would be not all fight? The only thing I would question in the presentation here-is the power from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit DOES give power-Acts 1:8 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;” Now I know this was talking about the infilling back then, but the Holy Spirit has given me power to talk to others about Him, and the more I stay in the Lord’s presence, the more I feel this power. But this is a small point because the child was, I agree, used by Satan to spread a New Agey gospel message. One pastor who was interviewed on TV opposed the boy’s story based on the fact that he believed no one died, went to Heaven, and came back to tell about it. He had no other argument. I could not believe it!

You are all a bunch of very very very sad people. Seems you have been led astray just as the people you criticize. Judging and saying mean things about a child nonetheless. You have all this so called evidence from the bible as if that is the only way Jesus will look in heaven. Don’t you know that the evidence you are referencing was written by a man’s experience? So then what is the difference between what this kid saw and what John or Paul saw? Why don’t you stop putting this kid on trial and focus on helping, loving and saving others that are in need. Seems like a much better use of your time than criticizing a child. As you said, you have never been to heaven so you don’t know what it looks like. To this kid it was real, who’s to say it wasn’t.

As others have said previously, I don’t even know how to start. I stumbled upon your webpage as I was scouring the internet for a story illustration on criticism. That says something about your article.

You and many of those that have commented on here have clearly never sat down with the Burpo’s and talked with them personally about their story. In fact, it was down right shocking to me to read some of the comments almost dripping with hatred towards them. Wow – your Christian love is exemplary! I’m sure it is doing a lot to build the kingdom.

Well, I have sat down with the Burpo’s and heard their story. I do know them personally. The way you have characterized them as having some wicked agenda to twist Scripture is really just sad. The Burpo’s are simply an average American family whose son experienced something unexplainable.

Maybe it doesn’t fit into someone’s packaged theology. Many of the scriptures you cited you’ve twisted his comments to fit your viewpoint. I’m sorry, you will refuse to see it that way I’m sure, but it’s true.

The Burpos never set out to make money by telling this story. It was never their plan to be thrust out into the public eye in this way. Don’t you realize that the Thomas Nelson publishers did an extensive background check on this family before they pursued publishing their story?

I know I’m not going to change anyone’s mind here because most of you seem to be on a witch hunt against this family. I couldn’t believe the comment where you stated that Colton’s experience was demonic. Wow – yeah, many people back in the day would have said that about Martin Luther too. Just because we don’t understand something fully or it doesn’t fit into our understanding, does not make something demonic.

The fact is it’s pretty easy to stab someone in the eye on the internet where they have no chance of defending themselves. That sure takes courage!

I would advise you to seek the Lord about your attitude towards them and before you continue to spread your venom publicly against them in this manner, you consider attempting to sit down with Todd and Sonja and Colton and Cassie and Colby and hear their story straight from their mouths. Think about the hurtful comments you’ve slandered them with and whether you’ve honored God with your comments.

Well, I guess that’s all I will say. I’m sure you probably think I’m just one more duped person from their congregation or something. No, the fact is I’m a missionary. I’m a Bible believing follower of Jesus Christ. I have a solid, growing faith. I’m not interested in attacking people whose story doesn’t fit my experience. I’m more interested in exalting Jesus’s name and encouraging people to put their faith in Him alone for salvation (that Him includes all persons of the Trinity). I’m pretty sure that the Bible teaches us to not waste time in foolish arguments. I couldn’t sit by and say nothing though as I stumbled upon your words, since I know them personally. The Burpo’s too are interested in exalting Christ, not themselves, whether you choose to believe that or not.

Wendy,
Whether or not one sits down with the Burpo family or not, is not the point. I am almost certain they are very nice human beings and would not hurt a fly or have any ill intention. The account of this 4 year old’s visit to heaven is what is being refuted as the writer of this article has more than proven that all this “stuff” Colton saw is not even Biblical.

It’s not a witch hunt against the family, or saying the family is not good or whatnot. Don’t forget, Satan is SUBTLE. So he (Satan) can use what seems to be perfectly good/innocent situation to draw people away from Christ which is what his (Satan’s) goal is. Go back to the beginning of Genesis 3 and read how the serpent deceived Eve and told her the tree of knowledge of good and evil was ok to eat from it – it even says Eve look at the tree and saw that it looked good for food and ate of it. BUT, God FORBID man to eat from this tree! – Man’s fall was a result of the subtlety and deception of the devil.

There are many so-called Christians out there, I would say a ton of NOMINAL Christians. How many really study the Bible and know the truth such as the writer of this article? I do, and agree with everything that is said here, I felt very bothered in my conscience when I watched this movie last night and regretted even going to see it (I only went cuz I had 2 free movie tickets and there was nothing else playing). Most so-called Christians are wandering in the wilderness so when a story or a movie like this comes out, they flock to it and view it as a ‘sign’ from God in the hopes of knowing what the future holds. What did Jesus say in the gospels? Matthew 12:39 “But He answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.”

Anyway, I don’t need to go on and on and my intent is not to argue, it doesn’t help and just spreads death which is what Satan wants. He wants people to argue and be confused and not enjoy Christ as life and unfortunately he does a very good job of it. I implore you to go before the Lord and his Word and see what your spirit & conscience tell you. Rainbow ponies, people with swords, wings out of humans, etc have nothing to do with Christ and are not recorded anywhere in the Bible, just like how Catholics worship Mary (a sinner) and have made up confession booths and all sorts of other things that are not Biblical. They’ve created MIXTURE, mixing Biblical truths with human invention which the Lord hates.

Lastly, I don’t think the writer of this article was trying to “attack” this family as you say, rather, they are standing by the Word of God and making a stand for the truth and God’s Word (which is God Himself (John 1:1), of which this 4 year old’s dream/imagination of visiting heaven has little to no Biblical truths behind it…

Although I Myself, personally don’t believe every thing written in the book, I’d just want to point out, using the Scriptures some of the flaws of this article. And I CHALLENGE the author of the article to face his errors OR prove himself one of Satan’s minions.   One of the things he wrote was:   The Holy Spirit does not give you power either.    This IS false. TRUTH, Yeshua Himself tells us:   But you shall receive POWER, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.   (Acts 1:8)   (2) does God have wings? No He does not.   Again another LIE. Now, whether one understands these quoted passages literal OR symbolical, the FACT clearly tells us that God HAS and it’d only take a PHARISEE (who think they know BETTER than the written Word) to SAY God does NOT.   May the LORD repay you for what You have done. May you be richly rewarded by the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to take refuge.” (Ruth 2:12)   How priceless is your unfailing love, O God! People take refuge in the shadow of Your WINGS. (Psalms 36:7)   To the choirmaster: according to Do Not Destroy. A Miktam of David, when he fled from Saul, in the cave. Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me, for in You my soul takes refuge; in the shadow of Your WINGS I will take refuge, till the storms of destruction pass by. (Psalms 57:1)   He will cover you with His feathers,and under His WINGS you will find refuge;His faithfulness will be Your shield and rampart. (Psalms 91:4)   The writer of this article should’ve AT LEAST pointed out that there are particular passages in the Bible saying GOD has Wings but are to be understood figuratively, — but, did he?   So, since he didn’t, that would be the SAME as saying that Yeshua is NOT A Lamb (to be taken figuratively, of course) eventhough The Bible, (handed over from The East, btw NOT the West) says He is. (John 1:29 & Revelations 5:12 )   So then, since ALL Scripture are profitable for CORRECTION (2 Tim.3:16) … lets see how the author of this article REACTS. IF he justifies and defends his erroneous beliefs, that means he hates correction and WHOEVER hates correction … is STUPID. (Proverbs 12:1)   And the same is true with Others.   PERIOD.            

Come Again, Mr. Thomas? Well, let’s put it on the reverse. Since YOU don’t agree with the book, does that ALSO mean that you should DISAGREE with EVERYTHING the Author believes in- – INCLUDING GOD? See? Your big but NARROW mind seems to be telling Me (in an indirect way) that My statement isnt plausible since IF I believe in the book, I should (or at least) I’m forced to believe in ALL. You see the fault in your logic? You believe in the Bible, do you? Then WHY not believe ALL the versions including the “new-age” translations? And just because you’ve taken an excerpt from one Christian Page, that DOESN’T necessarily mean you adhere to ALL it’s beliefs. ← Well, haven’t you read that DISCLAIMER from others many times before? It’s quiet sad to know that sometimes a fish is caught in his own mouth and sadly, the proverb applies to you. So think before you respond lest you be exposed of your ignorance.

As for the “shooting” from The Spirit. Well, that’s a LITTLE child’s description. What do you expect from a FOUR -year old? Reason like a THEOLOGIAN? You know what? I believe you Self – righteous theologians just like the chief priests and Pharisees (Mt. 27:18) are just acting out of jealousy BECAUSE IT WASN’T YOUR KIDS whom The Lord chose to reveal Heaven OR if they had been, you’d FEEL the same way as Todd OR, on the negative side, they’ ll have to pass your DOGMATIC screening or else they may (and I hope not) get thrown out of your synagogues — excuse Me, houses, rather. Grow up little Thomas, don’t worry, there are more than 7 BILLION people on the planet and I’m pretty sure you can get some, if not MOST of them to BUY your book, instead of Todd’s. Ah, religion, politics and money — they just seem soo inseparable, aren’t they? Peace. 😀

How sad…I’m sorry for those of you who choose not to believe Don Piper, 90 minutes in heaven and Colton in Heaven is for Real. That little yellow book has opened doors for me to witness to many people. I have met and heard Don Piper in person…in an auditorium of several thousand people. When he spoke of heaven you could have heard a pin drop…no babies made a sound, no one coughed….no sound but his voice…it was awesome. Sometimes you just need to have faith that in these last days Jesus loves us and is giving us true gifts.

you guys gotta be kidding. dont have better things to do than speak death and unrighteous judgements? I’m telling you … repent and be saved. you better be careful with all that blasphemy. hypocrites.

Humans wrote the Bible brother. They wrote in it this is the word of God and it was said in it that it had to be followed. You interpret it quite literally that hell is where you go if you do not believe it word for word. You have faith in it which is arbitrarily thrown on it because you grew up that way, and you have faith in the protestant guy who interpreted God’s word as so. Which is really just his opinion. I read a New Age book that stated that enlightened being from a distant star system inspired the book, and if you didn’t believe it you would struggle. Kind of similar if you replace “God” with “enlightened space being.” You would throw it into the fire. You just don’t want to think because you view it as dangerous. You avoid the truth because you are afraid of suffering and doubt. The Bible holds many truths though, at least for me. I am not saying faith is bad, you must have faith in something or you can slip into nihilism. You must have faith even in science and reason if you chose that route. You have found a way to avoid any view that challenges your own. You write what you believe is right, I write what I believe is right. So what I write is pointless to you probably. Anyone can argue any point of view. If you throw away logic for faith, you must also throw away conceptual discourse (thoughts) as they proceed from logical sequence. And if you mash logic with faith, they contradict often. The Bible often contradicts. But what I am saying is, God works in mysterious ways. And a lot of times I use my intuition as to what His will is. And my intuition says write this.

If I don’t follow my heart, how can I have faith? How can I love?

I guess why this thread interested me is that I do have strange dreams / feelings / visions etc. I used to think this was mental illness, I would be paranoid about reality and what to believe. My doctor would give me anti psychotic medication and this would usually just make me feel worse. When I started to believe that I was not crazy, that these feelings were not just crap I had to deal with and they could have a positive outcome, I felt great. Because if you believe you are crazy, you must believe that everything you think and experience could also be crazy. Music was very powerful, ideas about God and spirituality made more sense. So I guess what I am saying is, if believing a vision you had opens you up to the idea that Jesus is real and that he really did die for our sins and saves you from suicidal ideation, I cannot see how Satan orchestrated this.

By not addressing all of my points, by not appealing to any sort of positive emotion, by telling me the only love there is is telling people they are damned if they do not follow you, you have, somehow, won this argument. Unless you lived back then and could read aramaic and hebrew, you must know that the Bible has been through translation, which does not preserve all of the intended meaning. The fact is, the early Christians did not write the Bible for many years and the stories passed through by word of mouth. But this could be Satan too. I will not be posting anything more. Yes, I do forfeit my two cents.

People who are not completely terrified of hell just have to realize that you are going to be an annoyance and a burden.

I do hope the best for you. Oh this has no meaning to you I forgot.

Hi Thomas,

You said this :
“Now that we have the complete revelation of God within the confines of 66 books, we do not need visions and dreams ”

If that so, what about this verse :
Act 2:17
‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.’

Thomas :

So you’re saying that those verses ONLY fulfilled in the day of pentecost? So because it’s already fulfilled then there will be no repeat of God pour out His Spirit on all people that live in these modern day, thus there should be no one who receive dreams and visions. Is this your conclusion?

So because of that, there will be no one who receive dreams and visions again after Pentecost?

Thomas :

What more do you want?

Bible’s verse that say that visions and dreams will stop the day the written Word of God is completed.

Sure you can judge if you have a strong evidence of verses. But since until now you still haven’t show the verses in the Bible that say that visions and dreams will stop the day the written Word of God is completed, then how can you judge? Because if you can’t show the verse to back up that statement, then anybody can say that you teach a false teaching 😉

And till now you still haven’t answered my 2nd question about the why “last days” and not “last day”

If God tells you, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Ti 3:16-17), then He is simply saying that everything that is necessary for man to live in accordance with God’s will can be found in the Bible and therefore we no longer need visions and dreams.

I don’t think that this verse can be interpreted that way. Those verses are simply state the origin of the scripture (from God), and its functions (for doctrine, reproof, correction, etc), and its purpose (the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works) so that we could believe everything that was written in the scripture. Sure everything we need to live in accordance with God’s will can be found in the Bible, but it doesn’t mean that God have stopped giving visions and dreams.

What about the people who lived in a country who forbid the Bible, how they could know God and His will when they don’t have access with the Bible? What about people who lived in a very remote places, there were no people who reach out and handed out the Bible to them? God can gave them visions and dreams so that they might know Him, for example, He could give visions to some missionary to go to that remote places, or vice versa, He could give visions to those people who lived in a remote places or a country who forbid the Bible to go out of their places and meet someone who can teach them God’s truth. And you haven’t say anything about “the last days” question that I asked

And stop bearing false witness by saying I am judging people. I told you I am judging their doctrines and not the people which you ought to do yourself.

Really? you told me that I answer you from haughty position, you told hadassa in the comment above of being immature Christian, aren’t that judging people and not their doctrine?

And about the Gal 1:8-9. Those who are accursed are the one who preach any other gospel. Now let’s define the word gospel. What is gospel? If we read that chapter and the chapter following I can assume that the gospel that Paul means is the news that Jesus Christ died on the cross, raised again and those who believe in Him will be saved. That salvation is obtained by confessing this fact, not because of following Jewish regulations. That salvation is obtained by the grace of God, not because of our good works. So I ask you, do the people who believe that visions and dreams still exist today preach another gospel? do they preach that to be saved we need to do some good works? If not, then according to the verse that you quoted here, Jesus Christ didn’t judge them.

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

John Andrews UK/Ireland
Perhaps you would like to explain to Peter more about visions and dreams.

Thomas and Peter – you have discussed the Joel prophesy and did the two of you reach any conclusion of its context and for whom and when this is intended? Peter quotes this in Acts 2 – does this mean that the inception of the visions and dreams took effect then at Pentecost? Methinks not, and study into the Joel prophesy and Peter quoting it in Acts will I think convince us that Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come?

Paul’s prayer for the Ephesians: Eph 3:14–21

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Show me someone obsessed with the Holy Spirit and I will show you a person not filled with the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is the person sought His work has been rejected and Christ is obscured, scripture depreciated and a preoccupation with counterfeit experiences is imagined to be induced by the Holy Spirit – but not having anything to do with Him at all.

We have the charismatics that are confusing themselves, but need we be confused or deceived by their chaos? They speak of Scripture as the “dead letter,” compared to their modern prophecies, which they believe are “fresh and living words” from God. So they have effectively subjugated Scripture to questionable phenomena.

Besides, why rely on visions and dreams and prophesies of some person as proof of Jesus’ work in the world, when their source cannot be 100% guaranteed? – and when the bible as source, can?

Thomas Lessing (Watch and Pray / Waak en Bid) wrote:

John Andrews UK/Ireland
Thanks John. You wrote,
Thomas and Peter – you have discussed the Joel prophesy and did the two of you reach any conclusion of its context and for whom and when this is intended? Peter quotes this in Acts 2 – does this mean that the inception of the visions and dreams took effect then at Pentecost? Methinks not, and study into the Joel prophesy and Peter quoting it in Acts will I think convince us that Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come
“Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come.” This seems to be the meaning of Joel 2:28. Do you mind if I asked you to elaborate a bit more with emphasis on “is yet to come.” I appreciate your valuable input.
Thanks!

Thomas – it not my intention to give an exhaustive answer to your argument with Peter: However I will try and be short whilst still giving a logical train of thought:

A starting point will be to look at the total dissimilarity between the day of Pentecost as in Acts 2 and Joel’s prophecy as in Joel 2:28-31 –

Acts 2:1-4, “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting and there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the holy ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”.

I think it would be helpful to list these events in order to felicitate a comparison with Joel 2.

1) “a rushing mighty wind”

2) “cloven tongues, like as of fire”

3) “filled with the holy ghost”

4) “began to speak in other tongues”

Then Joel’s prophecy:

Acts 2:17-18 is a record of Peter quoting the prophecy from Joel 2: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, ‘I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams. And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My spirit and they shall prophecy‘”.

Below is the list of things prophesied in the passage quoted from Joel.

1) “I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh“

2) “Your sons and daughters will prophesy”

3) “your young men will see visions“

4) “your old men shall dream dreams“

5) “My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My spirit and they shall prophecy“.

A quick comparison of the events of Acts 2 with the prophecy of Joel 2 will reveal that there is only one thing in common, i.e. the spirit of the Lord was poured out.

Some might object that Peter began his quote of Joel 2 by saying, “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel”. How can we account for that statement considering that it was certainly not what had been prophesied in Joel 2?

As the two events do not match it would be logical to say: Peter was saying in effect “that the same kind of thing as what Joel speaks of is happening now“.

So where does that leave us in following up – when should it be expected to happen (or have happened)? As we cannot find such an event in the past then it is “yet to come” would be logical?

In other words, the reason Peter quoted Joel was not because Joel’s prophecy was then being fulfilled or even “partially fulfilled”. The reason was to say that these men are not drunk and the men of Israel should know that because the same kind of things are spoken of by Joel.

But is there further evidence of the logic of this suggestion?

JOEL’S PROPHECY

When Peter quoted Joel chapter 2, he began with saying, “And it shall come to pass in the last days“. Joel was more specific. In Joel 2:28, which is the beginning of the prophecy Peter quoted, we read, “And afterward I will pour out my spirit….”. Peter’s words, “the last days” is correct, but Joel is more specific as to when in the last days they might see the things quoted, i.e. dreams and visions. Let us therefore, examine Joel 2 to see if we might learn more about when to expect these signs.

Joel 2:1 begins with a prophecy concerning the “day of the Lord”. “for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand”. The prophecy concerning the day of the Lord continues through verse 11, But with verse 12 there is a break in the prophecy about the day of the Lord, and we read in verse 12, “Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to Me, with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping and with mourning”. This plea for repentance continues through verse 17. In verses 18-27 we read what will be the consequence of Israel’s repentance. We read in verse 26, “never again will My people be ashamed”. This tells us that these verses speak of the millennium.

Now to verse 28 which begins the passage that Peter quotes in Acts 2. “And afterward“. After what? Certainly not after the millennium which is the subject of the preceding 10 verses. We must go all the way back to verse 11 in order to determine the “afterward” of verse 28. Verse 11 speaks of the day of the Lord. So then, after the day of the Lord, the signs of which Joel writes will be seen.

So the signs of which Joel writes are to be seen after the day of the Lord. Therefore, when Peter quoted this passage it could not possibly have been fulfilled that day in Acts 2, because that day was obviously not after the day of the Lord.

Logically: The signs of which Joel writes are to be seen after the day of the Lord. When Peter quoted Joel the day of the Lord had not yet occurred. Therefore, Acts 2 cannot be the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.

In conclusion the above is an explanation of why I wrote “Joel was prophesying to Israel and this is yet to come?” the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.

2 Thessalonians 2 (NKJV)

The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Fast

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

And we need to once again realize that this blog tries to warn about deception, lies, and false imaginations, dreams and visions that are not of God but of Satan’s deceptive band of purveyors of another gospel. Just reading 2 Thessalonians 2 is ample warning that deception is not a figment of discerning believers but a fact. Dreams and visions and other phenomena that the Pentecostals and charismatics cling to are akin to inviting Satan to spin a yarn (lie) to you and deceive you. That is why we contend for the faith so as to oppose the false teachers and false accounts of dreams, visions of heaven and the like. I know that there are sincere readers of this blog that have fallen into the hands of false teachers, but they need to ask themselves if they have been fed the truth, or are they in bondage (a slave) to a specific teacher or church?

I am a visitor on this blog and not part of the team who have an enormous volume of work answering a massive amount of comments. I only visit occasionally to keep up to date on the latest identified works of the apostasy and the charlatans and con artists that serve their own ego and greed.

Again I repeat: 2 Thess 2:9-12

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Dreams and visions? ………Mm -yes methinks so (except for the normal dreams that we do not “spiritualise”).

Peter wrote:

So, Thomas’ interpretation about Joel 2 was that it had been fulfilled at the Day of Pentecost, and John Andrews’ interpretation about Joel 2 was that it hasn’t fulfilled yet till now, it will be fulfilled after the day of the Lord
Am I correct?
And what do you mean about “The Day of the Lord”? Is it the second coming of Christ?

You have read correctly. I wonder why you ask me to confirm my stated view which I have weighed up against the other 2 possible interpretations.

I am not here to explain to you “The Day of the Lord” as we are drifting away from the point of believing imaginations that are unbiblical (some call them visions and dreams) and not plausible if you read them. This forum does not support speaking in tongues, prophecy as practiced by the Pentecostals and charismatics, healings by faith healers (Christians false teachers and others) and you sure would not then expect to have visions and dreams slip through? If perchance Thomas’ interpretation of Joel’s prophecy would be correct, then they would fall into the same category as speaking in tongues, healings and charismatic prophecy which have passed away.

Whether you interpret Joel’s prophecy as fulfilled, partially fulfilled or unfulfilled (yet to come) you are still left with a false teaching if you believe that you can take as fact the day trippers that have been to heaven and back. Their stories are ? dreams ? visions ? imaginations that have nothing to do with the truth (cannot be made to align with scripture). There are no day trips to heaven. The price of the book “Heaven is for real” is the price of your cheap day trip to heaven. This may however not be the only price you pay………..?

To clarify my previous post:

Dreams and visions? I said “yes” meaning that they are part of the false teaching brought by “the working of Satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved”

One of the “lying wonders” is the lie that dreams and visions today are given by God through the Holy Spirit.

Peter wrote:

Okay, thanks John Andrew for your reply.
I asked that because I want to confirm if I have assumed your stance and Thomas’ correctly. So now I know that the 2 of you have different interpretation about those Bible verses

These 2 interpretations are 2 of 3 that are still debated within the wider church with all due respect. At no time has this been hidden from you. It also seems you did not research and bring your own conclusion to the table. If you would have an opinion bring it to the table for all to see. Irrespective which of the three you would accept as your interpretation of the scripture ith would still be problematical for you to further your “dreams and visions” spiritual fetish.

That would not detract from the fact that no dreams or visions occured at Pentecost in Acts. If anyone has ever said that they did it sure has not been put forward as nobody can.

What you fail to see is that none of the dreams and visions that people bring as “new or added revelation” are ever open to scrutiny by the wider church. It happens in books that we are able to test whether they align with scripture. Heaven is for Real does not align with scripture and you are being obstructive to insinuate that it does. While you have had your attempt to discredit logical viewpoints that I put on the table your vain arguments remain just that. You never seem to move forward, but try a new question to deviate from the point in debate. By all means attend a Bible College – nobody is stopping you. Hermeneutics is a subject that you will hate – “The study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible” ?

2 Tim 2:23 (NIV): Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights.

It was with the love of the truth that I commented on this particular topic and so I leave.