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Mary Queen of Heaven – Whore of Babylon

Mary Queen of Heaven - Whore of Babylon

Queen of Heaven - Lady Of The Miraculous MedalWhat does the Bible say about Mary, Queen of Heaven?

Jeremiah 7:18  (Amplified Bible)

18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger!

Queen of Heaven – A goddess of fertility, probably the Babylonian title for Ishtar. She is identified with the planet Venus. Offerings to this goddess included cakes made in the shape of a star (Jerermiah. 44:17-19).

Jeremiah 44:25 (Amplified Bible)

“25Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: You and your wives have both declared with your mouths and fulfilled it with your hands, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed to burn incense to the queen of heaven and to pour out drink offerings to her. [Surely] then confirm your vows and [surely] perform your vows! [If you will defy all My warnings to you, then, by all means, go ahead!]”

The Queen of Heaven in the bible is a Babylonian goddess whom people worshiped.  She has been incarnated to Roman Catholicism under the name ‘Mary’, Mary, Queen of Heaven.  Many Catholics would deny that Mary worship is part of Catholicism but unfortunately this is not true as she holds a special place in the hearts of many.

All over the world, Catholics have one celebration after the next dedicated to Mary, the Queen of Heaven.  Everything that is done for the Queen of Heaven is sinful; baking a cake, observing Lent, lighting a candle, or burning incense.  God abhors idolatry, and worshiping the Queen of Heaven is a damnable heresy.  God is clear that idolatry provokes Him to anger as seen in Jeremiah 7:18.

Isaiah 42:8 (Amplified Bible)

8I am the Lord; that is My name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.

In revelations, Mary, Queen of Heaven is Rome:

Revelation 18:1,7,14-17  (Amplified Bible)

1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
“Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evilspirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

7Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.’

14“They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn16and cry out:  ” ‘Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! 17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!

But Jeremiah is not the only time the Queen of Heaven is mentioned:

Isaiah 47:5  (Amplified Bible)

5 “Sit in silence, go into darkness, Daughter of the Babylonians; no more will you be called queen of kingdoms

Lamentations 1:1  (Amplified Bible)

1 How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.

This is what Mary, Babylonian Queen of Heaven, Queen of Kingdoms had to say to a Dutch lady by the name of Ida Peerdeman back in November 16, 1950/1 :

Prayer for the world:

“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father
send now Your Spirit over the earth.
Let the Holy Spirit live in the hearts of
all nations that they may be preserved
from degeneration, disaster and war.
May the Lady of all Nations, who once
was Mary, be our Advocate. Amen.”

“Now the moment has come for you to speak about Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate under the title of the Lady of all Nations (“Co” meaning companion, co-operating with but subjugated and not equal to the Redeemer. This must be duly stressed). She later added: “It may be asked why this title is not mentioned in the messages of the first five years. It is because the dogma of the Assumption had to come first.”

In April of that year, 1951, she added:

“The new dogma will be the dogma of the Co-redemptrix. I emphasize ‘Co’. I have already said how much controversy this dogma would arouse. The Church of Rome will have a long struggle over it, but will finally proclaim it. The image and its dissemination – this is the prerequisite to the dogma. This image will be the emblem of the Co-redemptrix. The Lady, Mother, has suffered the sufferings of the Son, both spiritual and corporal.”

She later explained to Ida: “By the will of the Father, the Redeemer came into the world. For that, the Father had recourse to the Lady. From the Lady, and from her alone, the Redeemer took flesh and blood; that is to say, His body. From my Lord and Master, the Redeemer received His divinity. In this way the Lady became the Co-redemptrix by the will of the Father. I do not come to bring any new doctrine. The doctrine already exists. Say this to your theologians: ‘Already from the beginning, she was Co-redemptrix. …That is why the Lady of all Nations has been compelled to come now, in these present times, for she is the Immaculate Conception and, as a consequence of this, the Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. These three are but one.”http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/loan/loan.htm

On May 31, 1996 Bishop Henrik Bomers and his auxiliary Bishop Josef Punt officially approved veneration of Mary under the tile of Our Lady of All Nations.

Lady of All Nations Prayer Day 2010 – Amsterdam

Mary has appeared under many names over the centuries, here are but a few:

  1. Mary, Queen of Heaven (Rome)
  2. Arianrhod (Welsh) Goddess of fertility
  3. Aprodite (Greek) Goddess of fertility
  4. Ashteroth (Phoenicians and Canaanites) Goddess of fertility
  5. Astarte (Eastern Mediterranean/Bronze Age) Goddess of fertility
  6. Anahita (Persian) Goddess of fertility
  7. Anu (Celtic) Goddess of fertility
  8. Aveta (Gaulish) Goddess of fertility
  9. Brigit (Irish) Goddess of fertility
  10. Ceres (Rome) Goddess of fertility
  11. Corn Mother (Native American) Earth Goddess/Goddess of fertility
  12. Cybele (Rome) Goddess of fertility
  13. Demeter (Greek) Goddess of fertility
  14. Freya (Scandinavian) Goddess of fertility
  15. Frigg (Scandinavian) Goddess of fertility
  16. Gaia (Greek) Mother goddess
  17. Hathor (Egyptian) Goddess of fertility
  18. Haumea (Hawaiian)  Mother goddess
  19. Inanna (Sumerian) Goddess of fertility
  20. Ishtar (Babylonian/Assyrian) Goddess of fertility
  21. Isis (Egyptian) Goddess of fertility
  22. Juno (Rome) Goddess of fertility
  23. Kali (Indian) – Black earth mother/Goddess of fertility
  24. Kostroma (Slavic) Goddess of fertility
  25. Mylitta (Sumerian) Goddess of fertility
  26. Oshun (Afro/Cuban) Goddess of fertility
  27. Rainbow Snake (Aborigine) – Earth Goddess/Goddess of fertility
  28. Rhea (Greek) Mother goddess
  29. Tlalteutli (Aztec) Goddess of creation
  30. Venus (Rome) Goddess of fertility
  31. Vasudhara (Tibetan) Goddess of fertility

… and many more.

More...

95 comments to Mary Queen of Heaven – Whore of Babylon

  • Burning Lamp

    Debs, thank you for posting this. Those who join with Roman Catholics in the name of peace or political or moral issues don’t realize what they are stepping into. It is a most unholy alliance and many evangelicals are being deceived and duped. Just keep getting the message out and exposing those deeds of darkness posing as an angel of light.

  • mom4truth

    Burning Lamp-

    “Those who join with Roman Catholics in the name of peace or political or moral issues don’t realize what they are stepping into. It is a most unholy alliance and many evangelicals are being deceived and duped…keep…exposing those deeds of darkness posing as an angel of light.”

    Sort…of…like…Christmas?

    I’m just sayin’…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    mom4truth

    Exactly like Christmas. lol. A day set aside for the Queen of Heaven’s son ‘Jesus’ or Horus.. or, or, or, or.

  • Burning Lamp

    OK Mom,

    How ’bout stickin’ to the main thing, clear biblical doctrine? Believers are divided on this issue and some faithful Christians acknowledge the bad roots of the holiday but choose not to throw the baby out with the bath. They see the holiday which is an established national holiday as an opportunity to share Christ and acknowledge Him as Savior.
    Other believers choose not to celebrate it as their conscience dictates. One should not judge the other it seems to me. This is one of those areas of disagreement that is not nearly as important as others. May God grant us all wisdom in these matters and how best to glorify the Lord.

    Of course such “holidays” as Halloween there is no question. It is disturbing to see more and more Christians see value in celebrating it and even some who chastise other believers for what they call narrow-mindedness and a missed opportunity.

    Maybe Debs will decided to do an article on Halloween as it is coming up next month and is celebrated world wide.

  • mom4truth

    Yeah, yeah, yeah- I understand. And worshiping false gods- clearly not a Biblical doctrine thingy. If that baby is evil, it’s going down the drain.

    The whole “national holiday” thing doesn’t move me: Lk 16:15 “And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.” I can teach about Jesus 364 other days of the year just fine without compromising God’s standards…

    We agree on Halloween.

  • mom4truth

    Judges 2:11-15 sums up His attitude on Baal worship, or Christ-mass as we so lovingly call it (hence my sarcasm) and His attitude on the holiday that celebrates Ishtar (or that precious holiday with bunnies, and ducks, and eggs- Easter). I am thinking He DOESN’T LIKE IT!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mom4truth

    After our whole conversation under the John McArthur article on Christmas I had a whole long conversation with my mom about it and we both came to the same conclusion at the end – when you know the truth about Christmas there is no ways you can celebrate that day because you know it’s utterly satanic. So what do we do? We’ll it’s still a national holiday, and as a family we get together and have a braai (BBQ), something we do on every other national holiday. We don’t even put one thought into the fact that it’s supposed to be this pagan ‘Christmas’ day. We don’t put up a tree, ornaments, prepare food for the occasion.

  • Burning Lamp

    Well, it seems inevitable that even believers with discernment can’t agree on everything but extend grace.

    Case in point: I have a friend who doesn’t celebrate Christmas, Resurrection Sunday (as fundies call it). Instead she celebrates the Feast Days and Hannukah (sp?). She has gone Messianic and off the charts into some serious error. She may be legalistically right on the one hand but has gone from the frying pan into the fire. One must guard against a self-righteous attitude.

    Fundie pastors who I respect and are as far from being pragmatic as one can get believe that Christmas can be an outreach opportunity. The same goes for Resurrection Sunday minus the eggs, bunnies, etc. If the focus is on Christ and Christ alone, it is a time to reflect upon the meaning of Christ’s birth and His sacrifice.

    To my friends who do not celebrate Christmas due to conviction, I respect that and do not send them Christmas cards or mention the holiday. To others who are not saved, I send a Christ-centered card with a salvation tract and a personal testimony. With most of these folks I would never have that opportunity otherwise. It is also a time when I can encourage other believers who live in other parts of the country. My conscience is clear on this. I am aware of the pagan roots of Christ-mass, but I don’t think that withdrawing from it accomplishes anything as it does with Halloween that is blatantly evil. My house is dark on that night and my heart breaks for all the children who revel in the celebration of evil because their parents allow and even encourage it.

    Now the issue of Santa Claus. Not only does this detract from the real meaning but it is a lie which is sin.

    If one were to examine our calendar for instance, we would find occult roots in the names of the days and months. But we don’t make up another calendar. There are many other facets to our society that if examined reflect paganism. But if we dedicate the days to the Lord it does not matter.

    I believe that the “Christianizing” of paganism is a great sin such as “Christian Yoga” and “Hula worship” for example. I want to make that perfectly clear.

    At Christmas my home has a biblical nativity minue the wise men – it is not Marian or Catholic. I have cute snowmen, but I make sure that Christ is the focus. The Christmas story is read as a family and we thank the Lord for sending His Son. We make it clear that He is not just a baby in a manger, but a risen Lord who paid the price for our sins. Yes, we talk about Jesus many other times during the year, but this occasion is used to concentrate on that. It is also a time of joy for our family to celebrate together and think of others less fortunate and also of the lost and how important it is to share the Gospel.

    As for the tree, many use Jeremiah 10 to say that is wrong. The Scripture is talking about an idol made out of wood, covered with silver and gold. It is true that heathen people hav sometimes worshiped trees. They hav also worshiped animals, the wind, the ocean, the sun and the stars. One must be careful about decorations – most of the “angels” that are sold to be put on tree tops are unscriptural and an affront to God. The garish displays many people put in their yards are disgusting but that does not negate Christians putting up something about Christ that honors Him and is a witness. We are to be salt and light to the world.

    I don’t try to convince my friends who choose not to celebrate the day – that is between them and the Lord.
    Each one should follow their conscience and we should all respect one another and not condemn one another.

    The Apostle Paul in Romans 14: 13-19 covers this. I do not include friends who choose not to celebrate Christmas out of love and they in turn should not look down upon believers who have examined the issue and look at it in a different way.

    The bottom line is love. I have intended no offense and I hope none is taken.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mom4Truth / BL

    I don’t have a problem with people celebrating Christmas – Christmas for me is one of those days that I honestly could not be bothered about. I used to celebrate it, now I don’t want too because of what it means. No law involved here. I still have to buy people presents on Christmas because well others in my family and extended family want pressies. And I won’t mind accepting a few pressies either lol. The day means nothing to me – zip, zero, nada. But if a child asked me what the day meant, I would tell them all about Jesus :)

    Why don’t we look at another day for example… Holy Cross Day. I heard recently that for a Christian to celebrate Holy Cross day is ok. In fact this person is so adamant that worshiping a piece of wood from Jesus’ cross or in the form of Jesus’ cross is not idolatry that I am now the bad one for ever mentioning it on my website and I have sinned against God or something (I think Catholics say that a lot). Or Lent, apparently this is a Christian day as well according to this person… and not RC.

  • Burning Lamp

    Oh my, talk about the pan into the fire – Holy Cross Day is Anglican and picked up by the Lutherans. and Lent a Christian observance? Methinks not.

  • Amanda

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  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Look at this… Mystical Tree of Life huh

    “At the center of Christianity, at the center of the world, at the center of history, stands the Cross of Jesus. An instrument of humiliation and agonizing death, the Cross stands as a stark symbol of the hardship, pain, and sorrow of sinful humanity that has wandered far from the paradise God created for us to live in and enjoy. At the same time, the Cross is the remedy for the sin of the world, the mystical tree of life, and the throne of glory on which the Son of Man is exalted as the Son of God. When Jesus was lifted up on the Cross, he raised up all who have fallen under the burden of sin; when his body was broken on the Cross, he made the world whole; when he died on the Cross, he gave life to those who were perishing. The 20th century historian of religion Mircea Eliade observed: “Every Microcosm, every inhabited region, has a Centre; that is to say, a place that is sacred above all.” (“Symbolism of the Centre” in Images and Symbols. Princeton, 1991, p.39) For Judaism, “the hill of Zion [is] the very center of the world” (Psalm 48:2). The Temple in which God himself chose to dwell, even in its absence today, still orients the Jewish people and gives meaning and direction to their lives. For Christians, that center has moved a few hundred yards to the west, to the hill of Calvary, to the place where God suffered and died in the flesh, and rose again, establishing a new and unbreakable axis mundi (center of the world) by which the direction of all human endeavor is judged and permanently reoriented.” http://fullhomelydivinity.org/articles/cross.htm

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Pagan, pagan, pagan

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    Luke 16:15 (Amplified Bible)

    15But He said to them, You are the ones who declare yourselves just and upright before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted and highly thought of among men is detestable and abhorrent (an abomination) in the sight of God. [I Sam. 16:7; Prov. 21:2.]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda, Elmarie and Grant

    My mother has asked that you stop sending her emails. My mother is not one bit interested in what any of you have to say, as she knows for a fact that you are all 100% incorrect. You are not winning my mother over to your side because you are biblically incorrect and always will be in this regard. The End.

  • mom4truth

    Hello guys. I rejoice in your family’s decision, Deborah.

    (As you can probably tell!) Christ-mass is something I believe is not up for opinion, it must be viewed, as all things, through the lens of Scripture.

    BL- you mentioned that you don’t agree with Santa, “Now the issue of Santa Claus. Not only does this detract from the real meaning but it is a lie which is sin.” Can I ask, what is the real meaning? You certainly wouldn’t be implying that the day was “really” about Christ in the first place, right? By your own conscience you say that a lie is a sin- saying that day was ever intended to honor Christ is a lie…which is a sin, right? So, it’s living a lie to celebrate X-mas, even if you say it is for Christ, because it really isn’t- making that a sin. And Santa fits in just fine because it is Satan’s day anyway!

    As I have often said, I am not interested in anyone’s “opinions” on the matter. No one has been able to give me a Biblical defense for celebrating a day that is a known pagan holiday. As I shared earlier, the story from Judges (2:11-15) clearly lays out God’s opinion of His people partaking in the pagan celebrations of their day. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone who claims the banner of being a Christ-one, can partake in pagan celebrations made popular by Roman Catholic traditions. What do you think the Lord is referencing when He warns in the book of Revelation to be not partakers of her sins, lest you also be partakers of her plagues? I assure you, our witness is not compromised when we abstain from the things highly esteemed of men, which are abominations before God. I have had a very precious friend who happens to be a very blind and deceived Jewish Rabbi compliment our decision to not celebrate the RC/Babylon mystery religion holidays, claiming he had yet to see “Christians” actually live what they profess to believe.

    I agree with you about the Jewish feasts deceptions, but, either way, the truth is that people are not reading their Word or they would know better. Paul clearly warns against that, just as the Lord graciously warns us against partaking in pagan celebrations.

    You mention that we must be careful about what decorations we use in our homes. I couldn’t agree with you more. Our family does not have any images, any crosses (another cleverly disguised graven image), stars, etc. on our walls because we know that they are affiliated with paganism. In your example you outline that our calender days/months have been perverted by paganism- you are right. However, we cannot exclude ourselves from its use. We can, however, rid our lives of anything unpleasing that we have control over. This is not a sufficient excuse. Again, we don’t need images/celebrations to share the message of Christ. And again, you must give me Bible for that. It is the MESSAGE of the cross that saves, not thumping our Jesus fish on someone’s forehead. I see people driving around with “Not of this World” bumper stickers. Yeah right! They usually have the lowest cut shirts, the trendiest hair, the loudest music, and are usually texting on their ridiculously over-priced cell phones. What about that is “not of this world”?

    Remember, He is looking for a PECULIAR people, zealous of good works? Will the peculiar Christians please stand up, because you’re starting to blend in with the world!

    As for getting/giving presents (pressies), our family/friends know we will have no part of this pagan celebration. None for us and none from us.

    BL- you spoke of the nativity scene. Don’t you know that, first of all, if it really was Jesus, that violates the “No Graven Images” commandment? Second of all, it’s not Jesus! It’s baby Baal! Mary, Queen of Heaven. The nativity is based off of the celebration of Nimrod’s day! It’s blasphemy to call that my Christ!

    This is not a matter of opinion and God, as shown in Judges, does not take it lightly. Those who celebrate this cleverly deceptive day and think God winks at it are guilty of holding to a form of godliness, but denying its power. And God would never compromise to get His message across- there is not one Biblical example for that.

    Acts 17:30 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mom4truth / BL

    You know when I was writing about the presents part I had conviction about that, because if I give presents and receive presents I am partaking in the actual pagan celebration. Oi vey… lol. You are right, and as harsh as your words seem (which they aren’t) you are 100% correct. When we find out the truth on a matter (ESPECIALLY considering the TIMES WE LIVE IN) we have to obey Jesus’ commandments on these issues. We are to come out of Babylon, not stay in her. And God is calling us out of her at this time.

  • mom4truth

    Deborah-

    Your bold act of humility warms my heart and serves as a powerful example of servant-leadership. Lk 9:48 “for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.” I am so thankful for the opportunity to dialogue with you and as “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.”

    Praise the Lord of Hosts for you, Deborah.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    mom4truth

    Nah shucks, it’s just the truth lol. We ALL have only ONE person to answer to at the end of the day and that is Jesus. There are many things that we hold onto that we think are so precious or fun or righteous, meanwhile they are to our detriment. When I left the world behind me and gave my life to Jesus I gave up everything for Him. I won’t hesitate to do it again and again and again. In fact I did it recently; told a few people to leave me alone, thereby choosing Jesus Christ instead.

    Thank you for your ongoing support mom4truth. Thank you! Times are tough, I can tell you that.

  • mom4truth

    To everything you just said- ditto. My family has lost all (no I’m not exaggerating) of our friends and most of our family. The remaining family members that we are still in relationship with are very much unsaved, but we have open opportunities at every occasion to speak the gospel. The hour is so late. Every night I lay my head down, I say to the Lord, “Really? This wasn’t the day?” I can imagine what Simeon felt like as he awaited the news of his Savior’s arrival! We often feel so very alone, but I know, according to God’s Word, there ARE others out there. I find it pretty surreal that I have managed to meet one all the way in Africa. My family prays every night for Africa that the Word of Truth would be brought there in the midst of all the deception thanks to all of the apostate/emergent ministries that are there teaching the false gospel. It was actually amazing- a few nights ago we had a solicitor come to our door trying to sell us something. We invited him in, he thought to sell us a product, and we intended to share the gospel. He stayed for a couple of hours. We found out he is in school in London but is originally from Africa. After speaking the gospel to him, he affirmed that he wanted to reject the lies he had been taught and accept the truth of Jesus as his Savior. He inquired as to how he could know the Truth. My daughter gave him her Bible and we asked him to bring it with him to Africa to share the Truth. He got tears in his eyes and said, “Wow, that’s big.” Now only the Lord knows what he will do with the seeds that were planted.

    Someone passed this verse along to me as a means of encouragement, and now, I pass it to you:

    Hebrews 6:10: “For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.”

    And now on to our next debate: KJV Only! :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    mom4truth

    South Africa is great, I love it. But the crime here is violent and shocking. The rest of Africa is dark and painful. The mind boggles at what goes on in Africa. Witchcraft interlaces everything in Africa.

    Re: KJV only. Just be careful, I might push you off the bridge ;) haha *rolling on the floor laughing*

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda, Elmarie and Grant

    Pay attention: My MOTHER HAS ASKED that you STOP sending her emails. My mother is NOT one bit interested in what any of you have to say, as SHE KNOWS for a FACT that you are all 100% INCORRECT. You are not winning my mother over to your side because you are all BIBLICALLY INCORRECT and ALWAYS will be in this regard, therefore my mother wants nothing to do with any of you. The End.

  • Burning Lamp

    Mom, I better understand your blanket condemnation of my heart when I learned you are KJV only and want to debate that. Quite frankly, your attitude comes across as self-righteous, and your words to me were unloving with not one ounce of grace in them. That my dear is the sound of a clanging cymbal.

    Like the Apostle Paul, who did not forbid the eating of meat sacrificed to idols, I do not believe that participating in the celebration of Christmas is a sin and it can be used to His glory. I have examined this issue from time to time over the years and know all the arguments.

    Paul’s point was that some things are a matter of conscience and he says to be careful about judging our brothers and sisters in those type of matters. Yes, it is fine to state what you believe, but don’t condemn others.Follow your conscience, but don’t judge others. Do you realize you are condemning literally thousands of fellow believers who honor truth and believe as I do? I am speaking about the remnant here, not the general Body that is largely in apostasy.

    You are speaking to someone who loves the Lord and His Gospel and takes a stand for truth. I am not a Baal worshiper. When I put up the simple nativity scene in my front yard (and one can drive for miles seeing only secular symbols) I am taking a stand for Christ. I believe in the full, complete and uncompromised Gospel and am very active in evangelism according the the Word of God.

    I try to constantly search my heart as to my actions and try not to think too highly of myself because as long as the flesh is with us we must be on our guard. It know how important it is to be salt and light to a dark world. Separation is important, but that too can be carried to an extreme and turn into spiritual pride and I think that is what the Apostle Paul was trying to convey. Any stand we take is to be taken from a position of humility and sorry, but I don’t see that in your remarks.

    There are many other topics much more important and personally I think this is a bunny trail. Please understand, I respect your beliefs and extend grace to you in that although I think it does more harm than good and shuts more doors than it opens. But I don’t judge you on that – I extend grace and peace to you.

  • Christiaan

    Hi Deborah,
    Thank you for your labour, I’ve learned so much during the last few weeks playing catch-up, reading through dozens of well researched articles published on DTW, and the comments. I have started my own little research projects on faith issues that I felt a little uneasy with, but never enough, to make effort to investigate properly. Now I see the real dangers in just trusting blindly, in what others say from their pulpits or write in books! The Word of God is very clear, it is indeed a lamp for my feet, and a light onto my path, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I will always know what His perfect will is for me. As we are growing closer to the character of Jesus, we must put away every evil trait, as He shows it to us, especially now, in these last days. May God bless u, and others that contribute to these discussions in a fruitful manner. Keep up the good work, may the Word of God always have the last say.
    P.S. I have found a lot of stuff on the net, regarding christian universalism, its dangerous, spreading rapidly, “compliments” to F/B

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Christiaan

    You are one tough puppy, and your family is very lucky to have someone like you. Many families don’t. Keep walking that narrow path with Jesus as He protects you and keeps you safe during all the trials and tribulations that are still to come. I’ve got so much stuff to read into and had a mean headache the last 2 days so been a bit out of it, but hopefully tomorrow I’ll be back on track again.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Let’s talk about eating food sacrificed to other gods/idols:

    If you look at your food products you will notice (well here in South Africa anyway) that practically every packaged food item is Halaal. That means it’s been prayed over and declared to Allah. I eat this food happily because my God, the one and only Living God whose Son Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, made this food for us to eat. No false god can come and take away food that God created.

    Back to Christmas, I don’t want to hang ornaments, put up a tree, or exchange presents (now) because this is part of the Nimrod ritual. Because I know the blasphemies that take place with the Queen of Heaven and her son, to associate these things to Jesus Christ is horrible. It’s not even Jesus’ birthday! And because of where I came from before I was saved, I can’t have anything ‘occult’ in my life. I won’t.

    BL – I don’t think that mom4truth is being nasty at all, what she is saying is the truth. You think she is being nasty, but she is not. I have to take her side on this one, sorry. Mom4truth did not say it was a sin either, she is just saying it’s not right and something that needs to be looked into. If we are none the wiser to what it stands for that’s a different story, but because we know…and we carry on, covering it up with excuses, thinking we can get rid of certain things and that will make it ok, continuously searching our hearts trying to find peace, we actually allow Satan an open doorway.

    Regarding KJV Only. Mom4truth – are you a KJV ONLY (else you are doomed to hell) type? I hope not.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Here is South Africa, Christmas has always been a small affair – it’s rare that you find anyone in SA with a nativity scene on their garden or Santa and his reindeer on their roofs, let alone a string of lights outside ones house. Shopping centers go all out, but only to attract customers to buy. At one shopping center the theme for this years Christmas is ‘passion’. Hmmmm passion? What that means, who knows. So yes the ‘birth of Jesus’ no longer belongs to Christmas anyhow and has been replaced by other symbols and meanings more suited to the Queen of Heaven and her son. Can we say that Christmas has been hijacked? Not really, it was never Jesus’ birthday to start off with. Us Christians were just fooled into believing it was so.

  • Burning Lamp

    Debs, the Word tell us that truth is to be spoken in love and seasoned with grace. Neither came across to me from M4T’s remarks. We are to reason with one another, not hit each other over the head with the Bible. Also we are not to judge another’s heart or motives and it seemed to me that was what M4T was doing. I felt judged and condemned, not by the Lord, but by a sister in Christ. That should not be.

    I have seen this attitude as a common thread in the KJV only folks. (not all to be fair.)

    The issue of the holiday is a valid question and a thorny one to boot. Each one has to settle in their own mind and situation what their response will be.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Ok, here is a very fair question. How else could Mom4truth have told you the truth of the matter? (remembering that this is a continuation from a discussion started on another article months ago already). She laid out the facts and the facts were hard hitting truths. Reasoning means meeting somewhere in the middle, and unfortunately this is one of those many cases where it’s one or the other – truth or error.

    We all have things in our lives that we do but should not do because it’s wrong (especially when we learn the truth of certain things) and sometimes someone comes along and tells us about these things and what they say seems mean, but it’s not. It only seems mean because truth hurts. Do you think there is not a week that goes by where I read stuff or study scripture and bow my head in shame because I am a sinner, and continuously ask Jesus for forgiveness because I am so pathetically human. And it’s only by His grace that I am saved, no one else’s. I do my best and my best will never be good enough, because while I am on this earth I will always be doing something sinful, but I will always be seeking by the guidance of the Holy Spirit to change. When I don’t want to change anymore, when put up resistance to God’s Word, then there is something wrong.

    Who cares how the person said it (ok within reason), it’s WHAT they said that counts. If what mom4truth wrote was lies then you got plenty leg to stand on, but she spoke the truth and I really don’t think what she said was self-righteous at all. In these cases there always has to be someone who concedes to the other. So there will always be an argument, and meeting in the middle is NOT the solution to the problem.

    The KJV Only thing is another story all together and I will deal with that separately.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    A group of German Catholics wants to do away with Santa Claus because of the fictional figure’s commercial hype. http://www.news24.com/World/News/Catholics-want-Santa-free-Christmas-20101006

    LOL, isn’t that funny.

  • Burning Lamp

    Again, when disagreeing it is important not to judge another’s heart or motives. Also, it is important to extend grace while dispensing truth.

    Because one person chooses to divorce themselves from Xmas does not make them holier than others. That is a works mentality. Perhaps there are underlying reasons for continuing to celebrate it such as keeping peace in one’s household or coming to an understanding as God reveals. It is what is in the heart that matters to God and He is the only One who has the right to judge. It is GOD in the Holy Spirit that convicts. In the meantime, in these matters it is the spirit of the law to extend grace. That is being kind and not being caustic. Jesus gave the greatest commandment is love. That is not always warm and fuzzy, but it does mean extending the hand of fellowship and not displaying an air of superiority. All of us are sinners saved by grace and have all made our mistakes. Grace and peace.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mom4truth

    Do you think that if someone is a Christian and they celebrate Christmas they are committing a heinous sin? (for instance to keep peace in the household)

  • mom4truth

    Hello, again. I have to get sleep sometimes! Oh- I forgot, you’re on the other end of the world and stay up talking while I sleep!

    I’ve gotten quite a character-bashing here, haven’t I? And it’s all because I dared teased Deborah about the KJV conversation. Enough to write me off completely, eh? (Thank you Deborah for having my back this time ;)

    What you will notice about me is that I am not concerned with my opinions or the opinions of others. God has clearly laid out His opinions in a 66-Book work of art- and that is all that matters. I realize that determining someone’s kindness through the virtual world is difficult, to say the least. And what you don’t know about me is that I am not an unkind person, however, I do deal in Truth and speak it when necessary. I do agree with Deborah that Truth is painful. It never gets easier. What I have learned is that we never have it completely figured out, “[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.” Proverbs 25:2. I am, at heart, a Berean. I never take someone’s word for anything, but search the Scriptures daily to see if it is so. I have found that it has saved my life, nothing less. Everybody can be so concerned that they may “step on someone’s toes” so that they will leave someone in error. I am thankful for all those who have been bold enough to tell me Truth! If God says, “Hot! Don’t touch!” I back away, while others like to flirt with how close they can get to the fire without getting burned. That seems like tempting the Lord our God. He will graciously warn us, but when we reject His offer of Truth to the point that they have “their conscience seared with a hot iron;” 1 Tim 4:2, we are on our own. I never want to be at that place.

    I took a break from this website for a time a couple of months ago because I had a new baby. I eventually began visiting and enjoyed reading past articles and ongoing conversations amongst its visitors. BL- I read through many of your comments. I found irony in much you had to say. On past occasions, you seemingly contradicted some of the very same things you have said now. If Deborah posted an article warning about a false teacher and a guest commentator would disagree with her, you would say it is necessary to hold their teachings against Scripture, and that, in fact, Scripture gives us the authority to test those who claim the same faith against the Word. When I said I had concerns about The Berean Call, you seemingly jumped down my throat. That is just one example. I am just wondering what your standards are, if not solely the Word of God? It seems your standards of approval are your own, without accountability. It seems you work solely off your own opinion, rather than A standard, which is the Word. Why do you fight me about Christmas, as if it were my opinion I was giving? Who cares what I think? “This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” 1 Tim 1:15 and “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” 1 Cor 2:2. Your battle, along with the others who turn a blind eye to the Truth about X-mas, is with the Word, not me. “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.” John 15:18. You fill paragraphs with your opinions, but Scripture warns me to give not heed to vain opinions and philosophies of man. Your “opinion” is that you should partake in X-mas to “keep the peace” in the household! Where is that in Scripture? “And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.” Matt 10:36. Lk 12:51-53 “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against her mother; the mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

    Does it matter what your heart or motives are if you’re willfully disobeying God? And do you really think I have the time/interest/need in figuring out a person’s “feelings” on a matter? Subsequently, Scripture warns those driven by emotion are foolish in that Eve was deceived by her emotions. Also, I really have no need to judge someone’s heart when Scripture tells me that “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:” Matt 5:19 and “The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jer 17:9. Again with your “opinions”.

    I don’t think when someone uses Scripture to reprove, rebuke, and correct me, it is them having a superiority complex, I just think it’s Truth versus opinions. Truth wins. No matter who speaks it. You mention “love”. Jesus says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Jn 14:15. This means not looking for clever loop-holes to get out of obeying His Word.

    Deborah, you asked if I think it is a heinous sin to celebrate X-mas. Again, it doesn’t matter what I think, right? Like I’ve mentioned before, in the book of Judges God clearly states His opinion on His people partaking in the pagan culture’s celebrations. I think the story of the Israelites throughout history proves God means what He says when He tells us to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness and to touch not the unclean thing. I certainly don’t want to be excluded from the Promised Land on the basis that I would not obey Him!

    On the topic of the King James Bible. BL- you’re quick to lump me in with some crowd you obviously do not care for, and therefore willing to refute everything I say based off of that one issue. It seems you are looking for an excuse to reject what I say. That’s fine by me. I won’t answer to God for those who rejected what I said, but I will answer if I don’t say anything at all, just like anyone who claims The Faith.

    I am not in the KJV-cult. I believe in its sufficiency and I believe it is an honest standard for those of us who speak English. My concerns about other versions comes after much research from where the more modern translations have stemmed from. Jude, amongst others, exhorts us to contend for THE faith. I think the KJV is a strong, main source from which all remnant believers can contend. Imagine if we could centralize our efforts with one standard Word- then we would all have the same message without the nit-picking over translations. I’m sure we can all agree that The Message is apostate, but some would say not, right? So, who’s to say who’s right about which translations are acceptable, especially considering many of the errors found in modern translations? People use the excuse that the King James is hard to understand. I disagree. The Lord really does grant understanding, so that it is no different than reading a recipe. My children, all under 5, can understand it perfectly well and recite it accordingly. I just appreciate THE Word for THE Faith, rather than cherry-picking versions.

    Ok, so there’s my book for the day. I have a cramp…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mom4truth

    Thanks your your answer, what you have said is pretty much what I thought you would say. And I doth have toeth agreeth. (practicing my old English here lol)

    Regarding the KJV, I understand what you mean, but I really do love my Amplified :) And yes in my article on KJV Only I give a list of 4 translations good enough to read including the KJV, the rest should be ignored.

  • Burning Lamp

    M4T, you said:

    I certainly don’t want to be excluded from the Promised Land on the basis that I would not obey Him!

    One simple question:

    We do not earn our way to heaven, it is a free gift. If a believer is disobedient, as a child of God, he/she is then chastened. Also, there will be an account given at the Bema Seat, but we will not lose our salvation.

    Regarding the KJV – sorry if I misjudged you on this issue – glad to hear you are not KJV only. BTW I would not call it a cult. I know some sincere believers who are in error on this – that does not mean they are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do a Bible study (yes, I do study the Bible) with a friend and she uses the KJV-I use the NKJV. When I read the NKJV minus all the archaic language, it is much clearer. Certainly the Holy Spirit is our teacher, but God gave us a brain and the thees and thous are not the way we speak.

    I tried to extend grace to you sister and tried to speak truth to you. You seem to set yourself up as the judge and jury, using the Word, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to work in others and to seek Him in their own situations.

    I don’t think I “jumped down your throat” about Dave Hunt. I was just not so quick to judge him but wait and give him the benefit of the doubt.

    You said to me:

    It seems your standards of approval are your own, without accountability. It seems you work solely off your own opinion, rather than A standard, which is the Word.

    There you go again Mom, passing judgment not realizing that is what you are doing. The Word is my guide and has been for over 50 years. That journey has taken me through a wide range of experiences, many of them painful, but God has been faithful through them all. He is my Savior, my Counselor, my Father, my Teacher and my Lord. I make mistakes, but since He is my Redeemer, He forgives me and I go to Him to repent. That is my accountability.

    Yes, I have opinions, but to the best of my ability they are based on the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. God gives us thoughts and opinions – godly gifted men have written commentaries on the Bible. This is called exposition of the Word. It is not the Bible and still calls for us to be Bereans, but it is helpful and tools that God gives us to help us understand His Word. There are also Bible study tools to help us apply the Word by teaching us CONTEXT and how to APPLY God’s principles to our lives. Also, interaction with faithful brothers and sisters is helpful, as happens on Debs blog.

    There is much more than simply pulling out a verse and tossing it out. Of course, one must be wise in selecting a commentary and study tools, but God has made them available for our benefit. We ignore them at our peril. God uses others to speak His truth and it isn’t always quoting chapter and verse.

    I have to wonder if you grasp that God is a God of grace and mercy? He is holy and righteous. but He understands our frailties. He does not wink at sin, and He paid a price for our salvation that we cannot begin to comprehend, but he is compassionate, longsuffering and patient. There is coming a day when His wrath will be unleashed upon the world and His Bride will be taken home to safety. Until then we are under grace. Grace is often abused and that is an affront to God, but I am thankful for His mercies that are new every morning!

    1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Cor. 13:2 NKJV

    These are difficult times with leaven pouring in and the enemy coming in like a flood with the remnant of those who still stand for truth in his sites. We cannot afford to devour one another – we must encourage one another as the day draws near and exhort
    one another in love.

    When we differ on issues that one has to sort out according to one’s own situation as to how to best approach with God’s guidance we must show grace and allow the Holy Spirit to teach others as He has taught us. What is important to God is the heart that desires to serve Him and is growing. We are still all under construction in one way or another. I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it. Which is the greater sin – celebrating Xmas or causing a division between husband and wife? Shouldn’t the wife pray for her husband toward this end and allow God to work in HIS heart? This is not opinion, this is rightly dividing the Word and applying its principles. Not offering an “opinion” on this is in my view a cop-out.

    When I was your age – child-bearing age, I thought I had a grasp on things as I was raising my family. Hindsight is humbling. :-) I read my Bible and walked in the light I had then, but I made many mistakes. Hopefully, I have learned something and matured more as a believer, but I only seem to have learned how much more I need to learn. We can never fully plumb the depths of God’s Word.

    Quite frankly, at first I was hurt and discouraged by your comments, but the Lord gave me some insight. I even considered just going away and never commenting again, but I think you are worthy of a “rebuttal”. If we could meet face to face over a cup of coffee I think we would become friends. I pray you and your family the very best and being a young mom is a real challenge in these times. May He guide you and protect you.

  • Burning Lamp

    Oops – What I said:

    I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it.

    What I meant to say:

    I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue NOT to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it.

    I might add this could be either a believing husband or one who is unsaved. The greater issue in the case of the unsaved is their salvation, not the legal question of celebrating Xmas. With the Christian husband, the wife is to be respectful and reason with him and discuss it. If he does not agree, she should back off and allow God to work in his heart. Yes, that ais my opinion, but it is based on biblical principles.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mom4truth

    Congratulations on the new little one :) I pray everything goes well.

  • FollowsTheWay

    I believe this is only the second time in my short 1+ years as a Christian that I’ve heard someone take instruction (I fail at it too) … Praise God and thank you Deborah.

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Mom4truth / BL
    You know when I was writing about the presents part I had conviction about that, because if I give presents and receive presents I am partaking in the actual pagan celebration. Oi vey… lol. You are right, and as harsh as your words seem (which they aren’t) you are 100% correct. When we find out the truth on a matter (ESPECIALLY considering the TIMES WE LIVE IN) we have to obey Jesus’ commandments on these issues. We are to come out of Babylon, not stay in her. And God is calling us out of her at this time.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    FollowsTheWay

    Thanks for your comment. As I said somewhere, we all have things in our lives and when we learn the truth we gotta do something about it. We are dealing with Jesus here, not eachother. I try my best to be a humble servant (not to people – some people like to use this type of thing as an opportunity to make you bow down to them, when they themselves are wrong). I pray that your 1 year as a Christian becomes 3 years and 4 years and thennnn…zooopssssss Jesus comes to take us home ;) (don’t count on my time line, I am hoping Jesus comes back tomorrow)

  • mom4truth

    You know, BL, my family left a church a couple of years ago that calls itself a “post-modern” church. Blatantly on their website they define “post-modern” as someone who derives their sense of truth from experience, rather than the Word. And this is precisely the way that you come across. Whatever your 50 or so years of experience you are so proud of has taught you seems to be your basis of truth, rather than acknowledging the only source of Truth- and that is the Word.

    I would like to address your comments in order to the best of my ability (And I hope I use this comment thing right!):

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    BTW I would not call it a cult. I know some sincere believers who are in error on this – that does not mean they are not my brothers and sisters in Christ.

    You say that I “set myself up” as some sort of judge/jury, yet isn’t this the very thing you are doing here with this comment? You say your “brothers and sisters” are in serious error because they refuse to read any other translation? And what authority do you have to determine that they are in error for doing so? I am thankful for those who stand by their conviction, and will not read another translation either. Error? I think not. Perhaps that is not something you should even touch…

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    I tried to extend grace to you sister and tried to speak truth to you. You seem to set yourself up as the judge and jury, using the Word, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to work in others and to seek Him in their own situations.

    Do you think signing every post with “grace and peace” to you makes you sound more “Biblical”, when nothing else of your comment comes from Scripture? And do you think it makes you seem more “friendly” to call me sister, while shredding everything else about me? Spare me, please. Do you even hear yourself? “…set yourself up as judge and jury, using the Word, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to work in others and to seek Him in their own situations.” So, am I supposed to assume that God has a different set of rules for every person, regardless of the pre-set rules in Scripture? You’re right I use the Word as the standard, why don’t you? The Holy Spirit will not guide someone apart from His Word. This is exactly the erroneous doctrine Deborah works so hard to warn of! If your “spirit” is having you play by a different set of rules, it is a false one, I can assure you of that. Gal 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    You said to me:

    It seems your standards of approval are your own, without accountability. It seems you work solely off your own opinion, rather than A standard, which is the Word.

    There you go again Mom, passing judgment not realizing that is what you are doing.

    And this is precisely why I said “seem” to be doing these things. It sure “seems” this way when you fill paragraphs with your feelings and opinions and use no Scripture to back up these opinions. I don’t have to dig real hard to see that.

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    Yes, I have opinions, but to the best of my ability they are based on the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. God gives us thoughts and opinions – godly gifted men have written commentaries on the Bible. This is called exposition of the Word. It is not the Bible and still calls for us to be Bereans, but it is helpful and tools that God gives us to help us understand His Word. There are also Bible study tools to help us apply the Word by teaching us CONTEXT and how to APPLY God’s principles to our lives. Also, interaction with faithful brothers and sisters is helpful, as happens on Debs blog.

    There is much more than simply pulling out a verse and tossing it out. Of course, one must be wise in selecting a commentary and study tools, but God has made them available for our benefit. We ignore them at our peril. God uses others to speak His truth and it isn’t always quoting chapter and verse.

    Seriously? We ignore people’s opinions of interpretation of Scripture to our own peril? I don’t think so. Extra-Biblical revelation: closed! I may derive some sense of understanding as iron sharpens iron, but I would be completely safe to lock myself in a room with the Word, without any opinion of man. It sounds like you are setting yourself up as a legitimate prophet of God, with “commentaries” I ignore at my own peril. “God uses others to speak His truth and it isn’t always quoting chapter and verse.” What? So, there are times God discredits the sufficiency of His Word in favor of a more modern approach? Post-modern!

    2 Tim 3:16 “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    I have to wonder if you grasp that God is a God of grace and mercy?

    Wonder away, “sister”. But God sees our willful ignorance. And I have to wonder if you grasp that God is a God who demands judgment, righteousness, purity, and holiness. We have no excuse to wallow in our sin once we have been graciously warned. The fact that the Lord warns us is proof of His grace.

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it. Which is the greater sin – celebrating Xmas or causing a division between husband and wife? Shouldn’t the wife pray for her husband toward this end and allow God to work in HIS heart? This is not opinion, this is rightly dividing the Word and applying its principles. Not offering an “opinion” on this is in my view a cop-out.

    1 Peter 3 exhorts wives to behave in such a pure and chaste way that these unbelieving husbands may be won over without a word. Is fleshy living pure and chaste behavior? And do you really believe the God of the Bible would violate His Word in order to accommodate an unsaved person? (I am not opening that up for your opinion, rather a Bible verse that proves it is so.) Would you think I wouldn’t advocate for praying for your husband? That certainly is a Biblical concept. If it were my husband, I would say, “My faith demands purity and I will no longer celebrate a day that is purely devoted to the worship of false gods. I cannot stop you from doing so, and will not attempt to, but I am simply not going to participate.” You find me a Bible verse that is not out of the post-modern playbook to defend our open participation in pagan rituals.

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    When I was your age – child-bearing age, I thought I had a grasp on things as I was raising my family.

    In the last post, you put me down because I don’t consult any other version of Scripture than KJV. Now you put me down because I’m young! You skim my writings to look for ways to discredit me.

    1 Tim 4:12 “Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.”

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    I even considered just going away and never commenting again, but I think you are worthy of a “rebuttal”.

    I’m “worthy” of a rebuttal? Gee, thanks. Now who has the superiority complex? If you are so convinced of the righteousness of your decisions, whatever they may be, then why would you become so upset as to never comment again? It seems, if you are confident of your opinions, then you would feel utterly confident to stand toe-to-toe with whomever to converse about Truth. And, subsequently, why do you feel the need to defend your decisions? If your life-style mirrors Scripture, then you are on the right path. Again, who cares what I think?

    And, can I ask a question? Deborah said she agreed with me on a few occasions as we have carried on this dialogue. Why do you write full-on commentaries refuting me, while ignoring that the Deborah whom you follow has said similar things? It doesn’t make sense. It’s not you two against the world. It’s okay to disagree with her from time to time.

    But, perhaps, it is just safer to isolate a visitor.

  • mom4truth

    Thank you, Deborah, for the congrats. She is just perfect! I wanted to shout it from the mountain tops when she was born…I even thought about having my husband post it on your website the day she was born. But what category would that fall under? ;)

    I know: Bobs Your- News From Around The World!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mom4truth

    Again, I agree with everything you have said, especially the last part :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    God’s grace does not allow for one to willingly sin. If the bible says its wrong, then it’s wrong. We are to turn away from sin, not carry on in it, or run too it. The Holy Spirit does not give 1 message to one person and another conflicting message to another. He has one standard only. BL you should be convicted of this by the Holy Spirit which I actually believe you are.

  • Burning Lamp

    Boy you ladies sure know how to beat up on a person – at least that is how it feels. I have been called postmodern, a hypocrite, etc. Again, where is the grace?

    Curious that M4T didn’t address my concern over her statement about entering the Promised Land and the basic issue of sslvation. If one does not have that right nothing else matters.

    Also, I said I was sorry if I misjudged M4T on the KJV issue.

    If we consider ourselves an island with no need for input from other believers, we are sadly mistaken. This is NOT extrabiblical revelation and that is why God raised up pastors and teachers and distributes the various gifts so the Body can operate as one. We need each other. M4T are you familiar with the scriptures referring to the gifts and offices in the Church? I agree that many of them have fallen away, but there are resources available that God intends for us to use as Bereans, using His Word as the final authority in all things.

    Also, M4T cut off my hand of fellowship and didn’t even thank me for the following remarks I left at the end which I meant sincerely. (I can’t get the block quote thing to work.)

    I pray you and your family the very best and being a young mom is a real challenge in these times. May He guide you and protect you.

    Why did she not even extend me the courtesy of a kind word and treated me like an enemy?

    I am now being told HOW the Holy Spirit is working in my life – M4T talked about isolating a visitor – that is exactly what is being done here – to me. I poured out my heart and said what the Lord meant to me but this is all discounted as insincere simply because I don’t think everyone can totally and immediately fall into line with the Xmas issue.

    This will be my last post not because I am upset or disgruntled, but because my credibililty has been torn to shreds and I do not feel welcome here anymore.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Oh my word… I think I am just going to just laugh quietly because this is flipping ridiculous.

    BL, you have nothing nice to say to Mom4Truth and even when you say you do, it’s snyde. I think you need to look at the 4 other fingers pointing back at you as you point fingers at us.

    This is one of those cases where because I don’t agree with you now all hell breaks lose for you and you stamp your feet on the floor. Well tough luck! Get over yourself, cos scripture is clear on the matter.
    As for your credibility torn to shred…? Nonsense. You have managed to do that all by yourself.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL wrote:
    If we consider ourselves an island with no need for input from other believers, we are sadly mistaken. This is NOT extrabiblical revelation and that is why God raised up pastors and teachers and distributes the various gifts so the Body can operate as one. We need each other. M4T are you familiar with the scriptures referring to the gifts and offices in the Church? I agree that many of them have fallen away, but there are resources available that God intends for us to use as Bereans, using His Word as the final authority in all things.

    Yeah yeah, this applies when scripture is applied correctly not incorrectly. And what gift are you referring to BL? The one were you get to tell us how good it is to celebrate a pagan holiday? No, no, no nooooo. And I am not an island – there are many many born again believers out there who agree with me and mom4truth on this issue.

    And one last thing. We are not pushing you away, you are the one running away. I have not once said you must stop commenting or go away. Have I? No. You can carry on celebrating Christmas until the cows come home for all I care BL – what you do is between you and Jesus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    It irritates me when I am pushed into a corner to accept ‘unity’ over biblical truth. This has now happened twice over the last few weeks; the first time I chose the Word of God over other people’s opinions (which ended up making me an outcast). This time I chose the Word of God over your opinion BL. I can’t tolerate being told I am being nasty when I choose the Word of God over compromise – it hurts my feelings. Thank goodness I have my husband who is my best friend, because surely if it was not for his total 100% support, telling me to NEVER compromise, I would be a very lonely.

  • Sid

    Burning Lamp

    Can I ask you a question, if I may. I have been reading this conversation and I have to ask, why is it so important to you to choose a snowman over scripture?

    I too used to celebrate Christmas in all it’s glory until one day I found out what it really stood for. I was shaken to the core, and yes, I did not stop immediately, which was wrong, but I stopped because it’s wrong.

    What you do is up to you, but when does it end? What else will you compromise on. Debra said that the Holy Spirit does not convey one message to one person and another conflicting message to another. Why are you the odd one out?

  • Burning Lamp

    Sid, you totally misunderstand – I don’t put snowmen over Scripture! What in the world would make you think such a thing? That is ridiculous! And excuse me, but there is nothing sinister about snowmen even if they are not mentioned in the Bible. :-)

    It was my intention to no longer comment on this thread but felt that this required a response.

    I value biblical truth more than you could ever know. I am sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I want to please my Lord and I am accountable to Him. I realize the pagan roots of Christmas, but it is not a pagan ritual at my home.

    We have taken something that Satan meant for evil and we have turned it into something that honors our Saviour. This is NOT the same as the Roman church taking a pagan celebration and turning it into another pagan celebration. This is not Christianizing paganism in my view.

    There are those who debate the date. I can’t control that. But it is a time when the world is open to talking about Jesus Christ. The world does not view it as a pagan celebration, so it is not a bad witness to recognize the day as long as it is done in a Christ-honoring way.

    There are many people who don’t darken the door of a church who will come to a program and hear the Gospel.
    Those who disagree will find fault with this. That is certainly their right and are entitled to their opinion.

    Good and faithful Christians, (even those in discernment ministries) differ on this matter. It is not a litmus test for one’s salvation.

    I respect Debs and M4T and others who believe as they do and are being obedient to their conscience. Yes, I do believe the Holy Spirit speaks to each of us individually in matters such as this. It is different concerning the issue of salvation and certain bedrock of doctrine which is absolutely non negotiable.

    We have hashed this issue out and each has stated their case. Now let’s let it rest and let there be peace. Follow your conscience and then allow others to do the same. This will be my last comment on this matter as I believe the debate has run its course-at least as far as I am concerned.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Okie dokie then!

    Thanks BL for responding :)

  • Sid

    Burning Lamp

    Flee from Idolatry

    14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
    18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? (1 Cor 10:14-22)

    Institution of the Lord’s Supper

    23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat;[b] this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
    26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. (1 Cor 11:23-26)

    If Jesus wanted us to remember his birthday he would have told us too, but he has not, he did tell us to remember him by communion only.

    There is a distinct difference between our conscience and the Holy Spirit. We are not obedient to our conscience, but the Holy Spirit! You are welcome to follow your conscience, we will obey the Holy Spirit.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Sid

    Thanks for your comment, BL however wont be replying to this thread anymore.

    I agree on the distinction between our conscience and the Holy Spirit.

  • FollowsTheWay

    “Imagine if we could centralize our efforts with one standard Word- then we would all have the same message without the nit-picking over translations.”

    Amen sister.

    “Divide and conquer” is straight from Rome.

  • FollowsTheWay

    I marvel at the reasonings used to justify the celebration of Christ-mass (hey, my flesh can scream too … my grown, unsaved children despise my new stand and think I’m a nut).

    The very same types of reasonings are being used for the church to justify celebrating Halloween (my aunt’s church holds a Halloween costume party each year).

    All roads (holidays) lead to Rome. That’s where all of this is headed. Slowly boiling the (Christian) frog in the pot of ecumenical water.

    Drip, drip, drip to Rome.

  • mom4truth

    Amen, Follows the Way. I like the things you have to say. Can’t wait to meet you in Heaven one day!

  • FollowsTheWay

    My blessed hope too m4t!

  • america

    The mother of Jesus, Mary, is not a whore. Catholics honor Jesus’ mother and I don’t have a problem with “honoring thy father and they mother.” Why you would is a bit weird.

    Esther is more than likely the whore, she seduced the King, God isn’t mentioned one time in the book of Esther. If you read up on Purim it is all about making cookies and cakes.

    If you have an opinion fine, but don’t come across like you know something and screw up the rest of the world.

    Thanks.

    P.S. See failedmessiah.com for the real pedophiles. Obviously the Catholic Church is not in charge or they would not be broadcasting how bad they are on television. The failedmessiah is stuff you don’t hear on television.

    Critical thinking skills are required here.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    america

    The REAL Mary who IS the mother of Jesus Christ is not a whore, the FAKE Mary the Roman Catholic Church worship is the Goddess of fertility they call Mary. What part of that is so difficult to understand?

  • Avril p. Joseph L'Heureux

    you will gnash your teeth little girl

  • Avril p. Joseph L'Heureux

    a special HOT place for you deceiver, you’d do better to leave the internet entirely Deborah

  • Avril p. Joseph L'Heureux

    7Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts, ’I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.’—- The protestant(french for protester) queen of england, puppet of The dragon( The Judeo Mason Crown) that wags the beast, masonic republic of USA, false prophet is pig of islam!!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Avril p. Joseph L’Heureux

    What a nice person you are – sounds like satan speaking.

  • Avril p. Joseph L'Heureux

    you believe yourself worthy of any other treatment heretic? you may deceive yourself, you may deceive others but We know what you truly are….

  • Avril p. Joseph L'Heureux

    You Insult The Church of Christ—- you are the anti-Christ in this conversation.

  • Avril p. Joseph L'Heureux

    [In response to someone who begged him (Saint Pius X) to “go soft” on the Modernists, He retorted]: “Kindness is for fools! They want them to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses but they ought to be beaten with fists! In a duel you don’t count or measure the blows, you strike as you can! War is not made with charity, it is a struggle a duel. If Our Lord were not terrible he would not have given an example in this too. See how he treated the Philistines, the sowers of error, the wolves in sheep’s clothing, the traitors in the temple. He scourged them with whips!”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Avril p. Joseph L’Heureux

    Definitely Satan speaking.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Avril

    You are my very first stalker you know that? borderline psychotic but most definitely a stalker. How many times do you comment a day hoping to see if I have removed the blacklist from your name? Well too day was your lucky day, you must have been praying night and day to your little pocket sized Mary action figurine/statuette with push buttons (like Buzz Light Year from the cartoon Toy Story) LOL.

    Oh sighs…. what a joke.

  • mom4truth

    Laugh, laughy, laugh, laugh, laughy, laugh, laugh.

    LOL just wouldn’t do!

    Hillllllllllarious!

  • Burning Lamp

    I agree – you outdid yourself there Debs – ROFL – what a mental image!! But you forgot the rosary……………perhaps neon glow in the dark?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    LOL, yeah, a neon glow in the dark rosary.

  • Jerry

    The woman clothed with the sun, Mary Mother of Jesus . I feel sorry for you prostants, you say you love our book, The bible, but you don’t understand it. Their is only one church started by Jesus, The catholic Church, the rest were founded by men.

  • Robbie

    2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Debs, any scripture re the deaf and dumb?

  • PASTOR MARK CHINCHEN

    I THINK THE BOOK THE TWO BABYLONS IS RIGHT THE CATHOLIC SYSTEM IS THE BABYLONIAN RELIGIOUS SYSTEM SET UP BY NIMRODS MOTHER

  • so be it if jesus judges the queen of heaven as a whore mary mother of jesus god chose for her blessed womb to carry his son and to nurture him and then to loose him god had to bless her more than others to be able to bare this this is a heavy cross in itself to carry she must love hers and gods son so much and to dispute gods choice in this matter speaks for itself and maybe jesus did not wish his blessed mother to be profained and then she no doubt would put others before him however i say never she prays for him and others constantly no doubt

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    isabelle

    The Mary of the bible and the Mary of the Catholic religion are TWO DIFFERENT persona! The Mary of the Bible is the Mother of Jesus, the Mary of the Catholic faith is the Queen of Heaven an incarnation of ISIS a satanic goddess.

  • camargo

    if jesus is king mary is quen if jesus is god mary is the mother of god

  • Sacred Heart

    [deleted]

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    camargo

    As great as your little equation sounds, God does not have a mother.

  • Paul

    mom4truth wrote:
    >>My family prays every night for Africa that the Word of Truth would be brought there in the midst of all the deception thanks to all of the apostate/emergent ministries that are there teaching the false gospel.

    Deborah wrote:
    >>The rest of Africa is dark and painful. The mind boggles at what goes on in Africa. Witchcraft interlaces everything in Africa.

    Your diagnostic couldn’t be more accurate.
    I come from this dark and painful Africa (I immigrated to North America 13 years ago). Oh! Africa! Africa! Africa! Why has Satan singled you out so much! My heart aches for this dear Africa.
    I gave my life to Christ 20 years ago and joined a denomination called CMFI. Well, God got me and my family out of there last year after I realised with horror what a man centered cult I’ve been in all the while. We have been deceived and brainwashed into blindly following a man who turned out to be apostate.
    See my first post on my blog: [removed]

    Today I concur with you (Deborah) that to the best of my knowledge, almost all of what is called “evangelical christianity” (that is, RC aside, which we all know is from Hell) in this dark and painful Africa is corrupted, apostate, tainted with witchcraft and superstition.
    I am shocked and appaled. And they have “exported” it all over the world with their diaspora.
    One example is the Nigeria-based Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG) with their General Overseer E.A. Adeboye.
    This man joins hands with antichrists in promoting worldwide religious ecumenism and promoting the coming one world religion under the NWO.
    See on their web site: http://rccgna.org/InTheNews/tabid/86/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/18/Religious-Leaders-Seek-Formal-UN-Recognition.aspx
    The caption under the picture at the end of the article reads:
    “Men of God and Good Will: Rabbi Dr.Elie Abadie, Chief Rabbi of
    the Edmond J. Safra Synagogue in New York (right), the Grand Mufti of Bosnia
    Herzeboviona, Dr. Mustafa Ceric at the United Nations and
    Pastor Enoch Adeboye, General Overseer of the Redeemed Christian Church
    of God joined hands and hearts at an international conference of religious
    leaders at the United Nations.”
    “MEN OF GOD”? Well, this E.A. Adeboye can only be an antichirst himself, unless he exposes, denounces and rejects such associations. Will he?
    Well, his following numbers by the millions worldwide. He is another false prophet and false teacher of these end-times.

    Please keep on praying for Africa. God has not given her up. I am one of the remnants that God is plucking out of there. I too have lost almost all my friends of the past 20 years, and part of my family as well.

    1Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
    1Ki 19:15 And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
    1Ki 19:16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
    1Ki 19:17 And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
    1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

  • Sharon

    Where I live here in the USA there is this little tiny catholic church called,
    Mary Queen of Heaven Church. It makes me sick every time I see it. I get up set also when I see pictures of Mary and Jesus is either a baby or a small boy. She gets the preeminence. That is Blasphemy! Every Pope, every Catholic Priest, anyone who bows down to a picture or statue of Mary commits Blasphemy. Even when Jesus was here on earth he faced a situation where someone tried to praise His mother.

    Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
    Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

    I find that very interesting.

  • Janet LeBoeuf

    I am sorry but I am Catholic. I honor Mary as the mother of Jesus. He gave his mother to John at the cross. Jesus gave us his mother. I do not worship Mary!! She carried the Son-of-God for goodness sakes. She is pure and holy because God needed a holy woman to carry Jesus which is why she was born Immacuate no stain of sin was in her so that she could carry the most holy of holies the word of God made flesh. Many times I have prayed and not had my prayers answered. But when I ask Jesus mother if she could please bring my prayer to Jesus if it is His will he will answer them. My daughter was very ill for months. I finally ask Mary if she could ask her son to heal her. So guess what she was. Jesus listen to his mother and anwered my pray. You see at the time my daugher fell ill I was living a life in sin. One weekend I prayed for Mary to please help me. I had an over night conversion from not having Jesus trylly in my heart to accepting Him as my Lord and Saviour. He came into my life only affter I pleading with His mother to help me. Instead of putting down my relgion maybe you need to try it yourself. Why do you think the devil hates the Catholic Church so much. He has said in many deliverences from priest praying on someone that he hates Mary who has that chain which is the Rosary. A prayer of all the mysteries in the Bible on the life of Jesus. The devil hates our Religon because it is the true church. I have seen people healed from many things because of my faith. I myself have felt evil spirits around me and prayed to Mary to help these evil spirits go away. I plead the precious blood of Jesus for me. So until you try my faith and see what happens don’t spread your lies. I don’t put anyone else Religion down or judge not my place to judge so I stop judging my Faith as a Catholic. I love God our Father with all my heart and soul and Jesus as my Savior but I will honor His Mother until the day I die. You want to know how I got the fire of the Holy Spirit by praying to the Holy Spirit. The I now have the gift of the Holy Spirit to heal people, whether it is their mind, body or soul. They feel the heat from my hands and I don’t have to touch them. I just put my hands near them and they feel the heat. Some I have taken their pain away. All through Jesus not me. I am just His instrument a Disciple of His, yes as a Catholic. Yes the Holy Spirit lives in everyone, but if your body is not clean of sin you will feel not the Holy Spirit in you. I did not feel the Holy Spirit until began confessing my sins and yes to a priest and at night when I make an examination of consciense. As for speaking in tongues, it is in the Bible. The Holy Spirit sends us the gifts because God desires us to have them to edify us to Him build His Kingdom on earth. God said in the last days children and men will have and dreams in the Biblical times. I don’t not use any New age stuff!! I will pray for you all that are deceived as you claim we Catholics are. And who are you to say what is wrong are right are you God? Only God can do that. I will respect your beliefs but do not teach something that you do not personally know about. So many people want to put down the Cathoilc Church like their church is perfect and is the right church. What matters is that we belive in one God and His son our Lord Jesus Christ. You should be praying for people along with all the different denominations instead of putting down other peoples Religon. You don’t like my Catholic Faith then move on and leave us alone. May God be with all of you and have a blessed day in The Lord! AMEN!!!

  • Janet LeBoeuf,

    I am also sorry that you are Catholic, but you don’t have to remain a Catholic for the rest of your life. There are many ex-Catholics whose eyes were opened to the heresies of Roman Catholicism and have since been truly saved.

    If Mary was immaculately conceived, as you believe, then Jesus is a liar who said: “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23) and “For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles; Mary was a Jew from the tribe of Judah) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” (Rom 11:32). Even Mary would have been a liar who admitted that Jesus was her Saviour: “And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” (Luke 1:46-47)

    You wrote:

    Many times I have prayed and not had my prayers answered. But when I ask Jesus mother if she could please bring my prayer to Jesus if it is His will he will answer them. My daughter was very ill for months. I finally ask Mary if she could ask her son to heal her. So guess what she was. Jesus listen to his mother and anwered my pray.

    Why did the sick people go directly to Jesus and ask Him for their healing when He was still on earth and not to Mary? There is not a single instance in the Bible where people went to Mary first and asked her to plead with Jesus to heal them.

    If you don’t worship Mary why do you pray the following prayers,

    In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee do I entrust my soul…. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased. But one thing I fear; that, in the hour of temptation, I may neglect to call on thee, and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins…. (One of many prayers in the popular booklet Devotions in Honor of Our Mother of Perpetual Help).

    As we have access to the Eternal Father only through Jesus Christ, so have we access to Jesus Christ only through Mary. By thee we have access to the Son, 0 blessed finder of grace, bearer of life, and mother of salvation…. (St. Bernard)

    If Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour, why do you honor Mary as being the one in whom you place your eternal salvation and entrust your soul? Paul warns that you should examine yourself, to see whether you are truly in the faith and not a reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5).

    We are not judging you or your faith. We are merely being obedient to Jesus (and not Mary) who warned us to take heed that no man deceive us (Matthew 24:4) and that we should always first test the spirits to see whether they are from God (1 John 4:1).

    I urge you to read this:

    http://www.endtimescoming.com

  • Came across BL (now renamed something else) elsewhere. Same conversation as above. Same rejection. It reminded me of this conversation, Debs. My eyes filled with tears as I read your words again. I am thankful for this dialogue, even four years later. Hope you’re still on the narrow(ing) path, my friend.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    mom4truth

    Yes she dumped me in a ditch after Thomas joined DTW. She could not handle Thomas speaking the truth to her. I am happy you are still around mom, I have missed you.

  • Robbie

    Debs… you mean – “she dumped you for a ditch” :-) (when the blind follows the blind)

    So sad. I did not know, but wondered.

  • Martin Horan

    Just got on this bit of DTW.
    It’s sad to read the retorts aimed at you, Debs.
    I went to Catholic schools but was fortunate, when I was a child, that Scotland was Protestant. The practising Protestants then knew their Bibles. Lots of them knew things about Catholicism that I didn’t know, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition and so on. I was never taught those things at my Catholic schools.
    I was appalled as I read, when an adult, of the Crusades and the Inquisition. And the historians of the Inquisition (and, of course, the Crusades) dealt in hard facts. One of the best historians of the Inquisition I can think of was Jean Plaidy. She deals entirely in facts, as any objective historian does, and her objectivity throughout here writngs on the Inquisition is obvious. Catholic historians are invariable subjective. That is not a criticism it is a fact. Actually we only have to read the emotionalism of the replies to you, Debs, from the Catholics above.
    A friend of mine who was totally secular, called me a bigot because I told him that Catholics don’t believe the Bible (and Unam Sanctam, isn’t bigoted)! He seemed to be of the opinion that the Vatican merely interpreted the Bible diffently from Protestant interpretation.
    Some time later, we were at a Catholic friend’s home and I happened to mention in a discussion that Mary was not an eternal virgin and that Jesus, her firstborn ,was the only One conceived of as a virgin. My secular (originally “Protestant”) friend admitted that he didn’t know that. I told him it was in the Bible and he was okay with that, knowing at that time I was often reading the Bible.
    Our Catholic friend was furious and leapt up to his bookcase and extracted a Bible and shouted, “Show me then!” (Or some like expression.) I had been reading those texts earlier so I read out one of them where it even mentions the names of Jesus’ brothers (I can’t remember which one but it may have been Mark 3:31-35, where Jesus’ makes it clear that His mother has no pre-eminence over any other of His followers. It could even have been Mark 6:3 where it mentions Jesus’ half brothers–James, Joses, Judah and Simon and also says “..and are not His sisters here with us?” Actually, there is another Scripture that says “and ALL his sisters.”)
    I said to my Catholic friend, on showing him the relevant Scripture, “There it is.”
    He shouted back at me. “Then it’s wrong! It’s wrong!”
    “I see,” I said so the Bible is wrong?”
    “Yes,” he shouted.
    It proved my point to my secular friend that Catholics do NOT believe in the Bible totally.
    Another time, my Catholic friend astonished my wife by telling her that he thought it would be a good thing if I were to be burnt at the stake. My wife was horrified and she told me. I said that it was not because he hated me, but because he really liked me, that he thought my being incinerated would be a good thing.
    Had I been burned at the stake then there could have been some hope of me atoning for my heresy and getting into heaven.
    Sadly for Catholic people, they have no assurance of heaven. The Vatican denounces such a thing clearly. The Council of Trent declares that a “believer’s assurance of the pardon of sins is a vain and ungodly confidence.” The famous Jesuit, Cardinal Bellarmine called it, “…a prime error of heretics.”
    Yet the penitent thief on the Cross had it [Luke 23:42] and the Lord said to him, “I tell you this, today you will be with me in paradise.” Paul, had it [2 Timothy 1:12]; Stephen had it [Acts 7:56], and so did other saints. Even Job during his terrible tribulations [Job 13:15; 19:25] had complete assurance.
    It is sad that any relgious dogmas can deprive people of what God has promised. Yet, those who take Jesus at His Word are called heretics by Rome and and countless thousands were burned at the stake for their “heresies”. How is burning someone at the stake “doing unto others as we would be done by”?
    I have known many nominal Catholics and they are, humanly speaking, nice people. But all people unless they are sinners saved by Grace, are still sinners.
    My problem with true, practising Catholics is their god is their religion, not God. Sadly, they are not the only people who make their religion their god. All who do are unfortunately, and plainly, idolators.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Robbie

    Yes, sorry I never told you I was very upset about the whole ordeal and it’s taken some time to recover from losing her as a friend. But when I look back now and I see the bigger picture all of a sudden other things started to jump out at me regarding what she believes – especially the fact that she is linked to Calvary Chapel and thinks they actually do good. The church she goes too might preach the truth, but the organisation as a whole does not and she can’t see that. And then the biggest problem she has was with Thomas, I was shattered by her treatment of him, she insisted Thomas would ruin DTW, I told her how to take a long walk off a short plank. I love Thomas, he is not perfect, not of us are but I know Thomas and what Thomas brings DTW is something seriously Holy Spirit inspired.

  • Paul wrote,

    At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. (2 Timothy 4:16)

    Family, friends and so-called brethren who turn their back on you is nothing new. My wife had many friends who she no longer hears from or sees because I warned them against the heresies they cling to. My daughter who was once in bondage to the WOF movement (Joyce Meyer in particular) was asked to leave the women’s connect group of a church in Holland because God had opened her eyes to the extreme dangers in the WO[L]F Movement. They now hate her guts.

    My own son and his wife are caught up in the satanic lies of the WO[L]F Movement and have just about cast their parents out. We only see or hear from them when one of us celebrate our birthday. Why? Because that’s the right thing to do when they want to pacify their conscience. “Oh, we’ve done our duty” kind of thing. It reminds me of the infamous “Corban” law of the Pharisees.

    And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. (Mark 7:9-11)

    Following Jesus as He wants you to follow Him and not the way you think you want to follow Him, is going to cost you. That’s why He said:

    And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:36-38)

    Don’t be surprised when (not if) more of your so-called brethren turn their backs on you. It is inevitable.

    But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:48-50).

    What is his will? That we be sanctified through his TRUTH, his Word is his TRUTH. (John 17:17)

  • Kalev

    Your friend that has “gone Messianic” may have found a closer link to “the faith once delivered” than you may realize. Sure there are some pit-falls there but my experience (7+ years) of intense Bible study has shown me the many errors in Protestant Christianity. A better route may be in the Hebraic Perspective of the Christian religion. The term “Christian” was originally a slander against the early believers in Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). We are to JUDGE with righteous judgment based on the Word of God. There are a few good websites that properly explain the Hebraic Perspective, Refiner’s fire and The Seed of Abraham (.net) are two excellent sites.

  • Kalev

    Well written Mom4truth!

  • Kalev wrote:

    A better route may be in the Hebraic Perspective of the Christian religion.

    Please read this article.

    Bewitched believers.

  • Kalev

    [deleted by DTW – it’s clear you are here to sow evils seed and this blog is not here for that, please go elsewhere]

  • Mary was the mother of Christ. CHRIST HIMSELF said, “Where so ever this gosple is preached at the end time time; this that act that this women hath done will be a memorial unto her. I am not Catholic anymore and know this religious spirit to be difficult, but she is now way a whore.. She is the mother of Christ and Christ himself set a memorial aside for her because of this her act of anointing his head with Spikenard..

    There are only two memorials given in the new testament. One was for Cornelious who gave the Vision to Peter that “God is no respecter of people. “The Apostles started to anoint the gentiles right after this word was delivered. Cornelius received the memorial because he was the instrument that carried the word and that word would open up the Holy spirit to a whole new community.

    Mary was also so honored because what she had done would do the same. This anointing the bridegroom with an oil, Spikenard, that was used on the wedding night for Jewish women. It was a sign of devotion and submission ( In Hebrew this word means, to stay open.) There were
    honoring Christ as their holy spouse, The Bridegroom. Read in Song of Songs we are to
    know him also as our: love, dove, holy spouse, friend and brother and all done in purity This word is coming soon to the body of Christ.

    John 4:29. He that is above is above all. Jesus) He that is below is of the earth and speaks of earthly thing. He that is above is above all.

    Who is below?. It is the Bridegroom. He is the fullness of the earth.
    This is all about the millennial times to come also. Lamb lay down with the lion and so forth.

    http://www.theshulamitespeak.com

  • Paula,

    I think you are a little confused. The Mary in Matthew 26 and John 12 was not Mary the mother of Jesus. She was the sister of Martha and Lazarus whom Jesus resurrected from the dead. The whore to which the article refers is not the biblical Mary whom God used to bring his Messiah into the world. The whore to which it refers is the Mary of the Roman Catholic Church. She is another and false Mary in the same way their are many other false Jesuses. You should know that.
    The Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) is not from below. He is from above.

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Terms and Conditions for Submission of Comments

Mary Queen of Heaven - Whore of Babylon

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