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Chuck Missler and Roger Oakland Exposed

chuck missler and roger oaklandChuck Missler and Roger Oakland Exposed: Do Not be Unequally Yoked Together with Unbelievers

It is with a very heavy heart that I re-post this article because there is a man who I looked up to that I am now going to expose – Roger Oakland.

I had previously done an article on Chuck Missler here:  Dr. Chuck Missler, SWANsat and the Auric™ Currency and one on his Wife, Nancy Missler here: Nancy Missler and Henrietta Mears but the time has come to expose Roger Oakland.  Unfortunately Roger Oakland is in the middle of all this.  I dunno how he got there, only he knows why he is associating with such a man as Chuck Missler and Ron Matsen.

The Bible is very clear on the matter on who you associate with.

2 Corinthians 6:14   “14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?”

arrowUPDATED 12/5/2016 –  Please read article at the very end of this article regarding William P Welty, Chuck Missler, Ron Matsen and a SHOCKING new book released in May 2016 about Mary the mother of God – the Queen of Heaven.

Note:  Articles posted by DTW are not an endorsement of the author, their website, ministry or any links therein. Readers are cautioned to use discernment at all times and test everything by the Word of God. 

source:  http://www.khouse.org/pages/the_joy_of_teaching_gods_word/chapter_4/

source:  http://www.khouse.org/articles/2005/608/

source:

source:

source:  http://www.understandthetimes.org/updates/july1411.shtml

source:

source:

source:

Audio:

[audio:http://www.cornerstonemultimedia.net/CCF/guests/120207/roakland4.mp3|titles=Chuck Missler Supports Roger Oakland]

Source:  http://www.cornerstonemultimedia.net/CCF/guests/120207/rogeroakland.htm

Source:

Source:

Source:  http://isv.org/about.php  (New Website, old image above)

Source:  http://isv.org/principles.php  (New Website, old image above)

Source:

Source:

Link to Granite History website

Source:  http://hpi.design.iastate.edu/content/EMIL_Postcard_final.pdf

Source:

Source:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/agirregabiria/5819888078/in/photostream/

Justo Lacunza ante el Grupo Vasco del Club de Roma 5/9

Chuck Missler on TBN – 08/21/2008

Source:  http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/1008717/detail

Source:

Source:  http://www.promisekeepers.org.nz/speakers.html

Brian Hughes also has no problem being ECUMENICAL with Roman Catholics –

Source:

Source:

Source:  http://www.riverlodge.co.nz/lodge

Source:  http://www.calvarychapel.org.nz


Source of article: ephesians511blog.blogspot.com

Please read here from more on Roger Oakland:  ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/01/roger-oakland-enigma-revealed-in-these.html“>  Roger Oakland, an enigma revealed in these last days

Proof that Roger Oakland was contacted numerous times about Chuck Missler MONTHS before the article went live on the internet –  ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/01/response-to-comments-on-galatians-4.html

Response to comments on Galatians 4 blog  [Warning:  If you decide to go to GalationsFour blog from ephesians511blog please use discernment when entering GalationsFour website, they are vehemently anti Pre-Trib which means they hold to the Roman Catholic Post-Trib.]  ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/01/response-to-comments-on-galatians-4.html


arrow UPDATED:  A couple of years  later Roger Oakland is STILL sharing a stage with Chuck Missler:  Roger – A Fraud Perpetrated Upon Believers


arrow NEW!! UPDATED: 5/12/2016 – Please read this SHOCKING news about William P Welty, Chuck Missler, Ron Matsen and a new book released in May 2016 about Mary the mother of God:  William Welty and Koinonia House – the Adoration of Mary book.


 

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163 comments to Chuck Missler and Roger Oakland Exposed

  • Marion

    Deb…EXCELLENT WORK!! BUT know that I share your heavy heart related to Roger Oakland. It’s like a death everytime I discover another false “thing/person” God used Roger’s book “Faith Undone” in my life 2 years ago to open my eyes to the Rick Warren deception that I had been swept into in my former church. However, I didn’t just trust that he was telling me the truth about what he was writing – I decided to check into the information I was reading on my own, and found him to be “trustworthy”, along with Lighthouse Trails who carries a lot of his articles – finding them to also have been a good source of information “warning” the people of God of all (?) things false. Not so! What these “ministers of righteousness” and “authors” want is to be our “source” – to be “relied on” by us. As “trustworthy sources” (?) they position themselves to “lead”…but where?
    What they don’t count on, is the reader (like I, and others) who asks God to reveal all other lies and deception that I had believed. Then, God through his Holy Spirit is able to “guide you into all truth” (Jn 16:13). No longer dependent on the “discernment ministries” (although reading them), I became a googling fool, researching into every “teacher”, “preacher”, “author”, etc. who I had allowed to influence my spiritual walk. Although Chuck Missler was not one of those people, I had researched him because of a friend’s involvement. Since Roger had been exposing Calvary Chapel and the rotten roots and fruits, along with Lighthouse Trails, I sent what I had come across to Roger and William Saunders (author of Ephesians 511 blog and ex-researcher for Roger) in Oct., thinking it was something they would be interested in. Roger responded that it wasn’t something he was going to handle at that time. And we know what William did…his own research and expose’. And since the Misssler expose’ was first run in Nov., Roger has remained WILENT. I had also contacted “Deborah” from Lighthouse Trails, sending her the link to William’s story and letting her know I was looking forward to her coverage…SILENCE. I had read the Jan. Lighthouse Trails Newsletter containing the 2011 year in review – concerning Chuck – nothing. But, also reported was future project with Roger Oakland! Books on apologetics!

    (continued)…so I wrote the following letter to “Deborah” Dombrowski at Lighthouse Trails on Jan 2…

    Email to Light House Trails:

    “Deborah…I wrote you some time ago when the Eph511 story broke with Chuck Missler…I had mentioned to you that time would tell whether you all were included with those whose silence was deafening on the matter…I had hoped you really were one of the “good guys”…to share a quote I lifted from your 7-11-11 article…(on the Jesuits, no less)…

    ‘Discerning Christians should be asking many questions. But one question that stands out foremost is: why are so few saying anything about the Jesuit Agenda? do they see it but are afraid to speak? Or do they see it and are part of it? Speaking of questions, Jesus asked one: “(W)hen the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8). Will He find it in the pastors and theological professors? Will He find it in yhour own church? Or will He only find those who have remained silent?’

    There it is…too bad for you…you have made yourself known! Your “discernment:” and “ministry” would be laughable, if the consequences were not eternally devastating!
    Marion”

    On Jan. 5 I received the following response from “Deborah” from Lighthouse Trails:

    “Shame on you for having anything to do with such shoddy “research.” We will take no part in such ungodly work but will continue to strive to be led by te Holy Spirit and not by the vindictive threats of men like Bill Saunders. The word is getting out about him, and God WILL deal with him. Please do not write to us again.”

    There it is…shoddy research…REALLY?? The research is well-documented. Check for yourself. I personally checked every link on this and every story, and beyond. I have seen the websites (some have been changed, and the Galactic Roundtable totally dismantled – the day after William Saunder’s story first broke…the site that showed “Christian” William Welty is really a New Ager…hmmm)

    Perhaps, one might consider my email to “Deborah” at LHT strong…but quite honestly, along with the pain of realizing that people are not the trustworthy “brethren” or “ministries” you thought they were, finally comes an anger over the hypocrisy these sites display – their continued vociferous “outrage” over other “discernment” ministries and “church leaders” who remain SILENT…while they are playing that same game! I say…SHAME ON THEM…and then, after all, isn’t that the tactic “they” have taught us the enemy uses to SILENCE those who would tell the truth…SLANDER! and what I believe is a threat toward William Saunders. Who is he? What is his gain? He is simply another blogger who has told this truth.
    So, what is the bottom line? Jesus said “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (Jn 8:31-32) God alone has given us truth…we need to know it, it can be found in our King James Bibles…we need to know our God…he gives to us freely…his word gives eternal life. The words of men lead also…where? Astray? As sheep to the slaughter? When men seek to lead – we need to find out who they are…there are many liars and hirelings. They know the truth, and have remained SILENT while the wolves are in the sheephold. One would have to ask what kind of a watchman is that? and who are these people? There is only one Good Shepherd, and perhaps many good under-shepherds…
    Jesus said “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.” (Jn 10:11-14)

    As the liars and wolves in sheep’s clothing amongst us are exposed…read it and weep…watch and pray…be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Share the Gospel, warn the brethren (read 2 Tim. 2:24-26)… Live for our Lord and Savious, Jesus Christ!

    “God have mercy on you!
    Marion”

  • mijadedios

    One thing I used in my post that Ephesians511 did not was the connection that Roger Oakland shares to Sowing Circle. Sowing Circle is a ministry of Chuck Missler’s. Sowing Circle is the vehicle that Chuck Missler used to create Blue Letter Bible. When you are in BLB store you can see where your contributions go; in that link you can find a couple of Roger Oakland’s ministries, including UTT (Understand the Times International) and his ministries in Asia. I have screen shots of those on my article: A Time To Speak, for anyone wanting to get that information as well.

  • FollowsTheWay

    Is it just me or is this age not rendering well at all in Firefox 8.x?

    It is pretty much unreadable for me.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    FollowsTheWay

    Nope I am having the same problem, I see there is a v 9 out and my WordPress is telling me to update my Firefox to 9.

    Unfortunately the article is made up of ‘pictures’ 790 pix wide. Maybe adjust your resolution.

  • Robbie

    u mean … there are better than D.O.S. 3.1?

  • William Saunders

    This Blog author posted a documented response to Nick V comments on the Galatians 4 Blog website –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/01/response-to-comments-on-galatians-4.html

    Warning: If you decide to go to GalationsFour blog from Ephesians511blog please use discernment when entering GalationsFour website, they are vehemently anti Pre-Trib which means they hold to the Roman Catholic Post-Trib.

  • Aliki

    I am so grateful for to all the beautiful people who write on these pages.
    Thank you Debs for your wonderful dedication. God bless

  • Reaching4Truth

    A little lighthearted “aside”…

    These randomly assigned icons/avatars are killin’ me! They’re FUNNY!!

    You got Aliki up there sayin’ she’s so grateful, right next to an icon with an “irked” expression!

    I found myself laughing at the disparity between people’s remarks and the icons they’s been paired with. Seriously funny.

  • Reaching4Truth

    Chuckle! (sorry). “They’s” been? “THEY’S” been? Now I’m laughin’ at myself!– Could I sound more ridiculous?

    Now, on a somber note (although it did feel good to laugh!), this recent development, or discovery, about Roger’s connection to(and Deborah/LHT’s failure to expose) Chuck Missler has hit me hard as well. I almost don’t know what planet I’m on, things have gotten that weird.

    I just wanted to express my great sadness as well. This has been a difficult discovery for all of us.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Reaching4Truth

    LOL, I wish I could do something about these little icons, but they come standard with the blog and everyone automatically get’s a DEFAULT one set to them based on their email address. The only way to change it is to go to http://www.gravatar.com where you can upload your own picture using the same email address and this this one will change to the one you uploaded.

    But I too laugh someone times at the icons, and think to myself, “boy this person must hate me for giving them such an ugly picture” hahaha.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Reaching4Truth

    To be honest I have know about this link between Chuck Missler and Roger for over a year now, but I only had one little link to go by. When I showed it to someone, they told me that it must be an old piece of info and that surely Roger was no longer part of K-House Europe. I then left it, because I didn’t want to believe that Roger Oakland was an infiltrator into the true Church of Jesus. His mission was to expose one thing on the one hand but on the other hand bring in false teaching (with Chuck Missler).

    So when I came across Williams article, reading it was like reading ‘old news’ except he expounded on areas that I had no idea about. I then posted the article and then received an email from someone asking me to take down the article. I listened to that person and took down the article. But then I went and prayed about it and started doing my own research and the more I prayed and the more I looked at the problem at hand, the more I realised I should put the article back up again.

    Roger has posted an article on LHT http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=8280 on the 8th Jan stating how NON-ECUMENICAL he is – The problem is the article does not address the current problem at hand, him and Chuck Missler – he avoids it all together. Does he think writing an article about how anti-Babylon he is all the while playing “snakes and ladders” with Chuck Missler is going to make his problems go away?

    No Roger, you can’t hide from this one.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Here is mijadedios article: please go and see the info re Sowing Circle.

  • Marion

    Deborah – forgive me in advance for rambling; I have a lot on my mind:) What is really revealing here, aside from all the information, is this…Roger had the information about Chuck Missler in Oct., Lighthouse Trails had seen William Saunder’s article in November. In light of their “discernment” and “ministries”…there is only one question…

    WHY ARE THEY SILENT ABOUT CHUCK MISSLER, AND CONTINUE TO BE?

    which leads to another question…

    WHO ARE THEY, AND WHAT ARE THEY REALLY DOING?

    BTW…these are not the only “ministries” I contacted, sending William Saunder’s blog to them because it was apparent that Chuck Missler was a REALLY big wolf…thinking, that of course, they would want to get this out there. You see all these that I mention, I had received lots of information from and they had been a help to me in learning “the truth” about many things, but I don’t “follow” them. (I did however, trust Roger and Lighthouse Trails, because I read their stuff, and then checked it myself to verify. In my mind, they “were” “trustworthy”) Surely, in return, I could be a help to them, cause we’re on the same “team”…right?…not

    Who else exposes the ecumenical movement, the Catholic Church, the “evils of Popery”, the Jesuit Agenda? (and don’t get me wrong, we do need to know and be aware of these things)

    Some of those “ministries” are Chris Pinto and Brannon Howse…I had sent them the link to William Saunder’s article on Chuck Missler in November. I had just finished listening to a discussion between Chris and Brannon about the very things listed above. SURELY, they would be interested!? This was big news!

    Chris’ response had to do with seeing “guilt by association” rather than “guilt by cooperation”. However, as more info came out showing that “cooperation”, I passed it on to Chris – his answer… SILENCE.
    But, then again, Chris does conferences with Chuck (see Future Congress).

    Brannon Howse’s response…SILENCE.

    Eric Barger…SILENCE.

    SILENCE is an answer…they all go back to doing what they’ve been doing – exposing – but only so much. To what end? They become the “trusted” “truth-tellers”, teachers, and gather themselves a “sheeple” to lead…WHERE? If you do your own research – you will figure it out!

    So much for folks who want to tell Christians what their “Christian worldview” ought to be! Who are they…really…do we know? Is their agenda pure? The Bible says, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” (Jer. 17:9-10)

    I stopped contacting ministries…no one wanted to hear..they weren’t interested in exposing all things. I made one last ditch effort…it was to you Deborah because I had read your earlier work related to Missler…a BIG thank you for looking at William’s blog and dealing with it (I’d love to know who asked you to take it down???????) Anyway…

    Christians don’t need to be “taught” (indoctrinated into) a “worldview” (it’s big business, you know).

    ” But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through COVETOUSNESS shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you; whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.” (2 Peter 2:1

    Remember those scriptures that talk about those who would name the name of Christ, but are not known of him?

    These “ministries” even while telling us that “certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jude 4) THEY, THEMSELVES ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE CREPT IN!
    They will argue they haven’t denied the Lord (probably with indignation) but in their SILENCE they have…covering for Chuck Missler – they have – what does Chuck Missler teach? If you don’t know, go to amazon.com…find the book “Learn the Bible in 24 Hours” (REALLY?)…anyway..click on the “look inside” icon, and scroll through and read the sample pages…isn’t this “another jesus”?…yes…the New Age “jesus”.

    That is how we have become deceived…when we “heap to” ourselves “teachers” (and books, seminars, etc). And just a reminder: while the focus on this particular article is basically Calvary Chapel, these deceptions are happening across the board in all denominations and non and around the world. In many cases, even more so damaging because it is more subtle and difficult to find…but it can be done – it takes work!

    We have Bibles (KJV)…that is where the mind of the Lord is revealed to those of us who HAVE the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16)! We need to read it, believe it, obey it. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Tim 3:16-17)

    God refers to the Word of God, as meat, bread, milk, honey, living water. We need to feast on the Word of God, not words of men/women.

    “As newborn babes, DESIRE the SINCERE milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby; If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.” (1 Peter 2:2-3) (emphasis mine)

    May we say with Jeremiah: “Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.” (Jer. 15:16)

  • Reaching4Truth

    Hoh man! Excellent, Marion! It just blessed me on several levels, to read your response here, even with the sadness that accompanies the subject of these ministries and what we’re learning of them… I think God has given you great clarity. And the scriptures you presented were wonderful. Thank you. You have blessed us all.

  • Burning Lamp

    Yes, Marion, SILENCE is often deafening as appears to be the case here. One wonders WHY and since there is no explanation forthcoming all we are left with is questions.

  • Beverley

    Oh Deborah – please no, no, no not Rodger. I have not read your article yet but will print it out and study it. I am besides myself, if things go on like this who will be exposed next? I came out of so much rubbish myself that I walk on egg shells. None of us are safe!!!!

    Regards

  • Burning Lamp

    Bev, this is shocking to be sure and at first I didn’t want to believe it, but the evidence is overwhelming and all the dots connect.

  • Marion

    Beverley – “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (Rom. 15:4)

    “Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
    For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
    Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
    Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
    Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
    And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
    Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
    Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
    For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be; yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
    The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
    The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
    The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
    Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
    A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
    For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
    The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
    They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
    But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
    The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
    For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
    The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
    Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
    I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
    He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.
    Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
    For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
    The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
    The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
    The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
    The wicked watcheth the righteous and seeketh to slay him.
    The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
    Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
    I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
    Yet he passed away, and lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
    Mark the perfect, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
    But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
    But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
    And the LORD shall help them and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.” Psalm 37 KJV

    “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.” (John 10:27-30) KJV

    This is our “safe” place!

  • Valerie

    Galatians 5 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

    I am disappointed how the discernment ministries have done this very thing and turned on one another, biting and devouring on another.

    One thing I have learned, some are moving farther away from God’s truth and some are moving closer to line up with God’s truth, but no one but Jesus Christ has God’s perfect understanding of God’s truth. We must all strive to line up our hearts and minds with God’s truth and quit chasing after the doctrines of men and trying to “fix” them. Pray for them to receive God’s counsel as revealed in the Scripture.

    Philippians 4:Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

    And again I say…. THINK ON THESE THINGS! I must keep reminding myself of this as I too get caught up focusing on the doctrines of men.

    Mercy for them and mercy for me.
    By His Grace,
    Valerie

  • Chris

    This is shocking if it is true. I will see what other information I can get. I know of many other sound churches breaking up as well as individuals being sidetracked bt the evil one. It seems as if the birth pangs in this regard is extremely intense righ now. We need to keep watch. Not just out there but within ourselves as well.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Valerie

    >> I am disappointed how the discernment ministries have done this very thing and turned on one another

    Where exactly has this happened? I have exposed Roger Oakland. No one else but Roger Oakland. If others want to defend Roger Oakland that is their business not mine.

  • Beverley

    OK I am confused … why does Rodger not just denounce Chuck Missler? Surley this is going to affect his ministry in more ways than one? Is it money? Does Rodger get a fee for being involved with this ‘Koinonia House’etc?

    Valerie I am very thankful that someone tried to ‘fix me’. I was being devoured, missled, stolen from, cheated, the list is endless. I was probably going straight to hell as well. I pray for those in the discernment ministries I am sure many try their best. It is also a very scarey, sad and hurtful ministry, no one likes to turn on another person or ministry. I just thank God for them.

  • Polly

    Valerie, “turned on one another”? Please explain where you are coming from. If you mean exposing error as turning on someone, you are mistaken. The One we need to be sure we do NOT turn on is the LORD GOD. Error should be exposed whereever it is found as God is no respector of persons. His truth is paramount and that should ALWAYS be our focus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Beverley

    >> why does Rodger not just denounce Chuck Missler?

    Time will tell. Time will tell if he is for Chuck or against Chuck. Time will tell if money is more important than the TRUTH (Jesus Christ).

    >> Valerie I am very thankful that someone tried to ‘fix me’. I was being devoured, missled, stolen from, cheated, the list is endless. I was probably going straight to hell as well. I pray for those in the discernment ministries I am sure many try their best. It is also a very scarey, sad and hurtful ministry, no one likes to turn on another person or ministry. I just thank God for them.

    Well said Beverly.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Polly

    Spot on!

  • Kate Akele

    The Bible in Psalms 146 vs 3 has the conclusion to this mess- ‘Put not your trust in princes, Nor in the son of man in whom there is no help‘.

    Am sorry, Deborah for being offline. Nigeria got shut down for a week over the issue of fuel subsidy(a con game perpetrated to impoverish the nation. Just back to work!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Kate

    Good to have you back. As a side note, yes I see there is going to be huge issues up there in the north regarding petrol and gas. We here have other areas in which they are trying to impoverish the nation – like a huge highway with a tolling system that will force people to pay exorbitant fees just to drive to get to work and back. No one can afford to pay. And then the price of food will go up and everything else, because of the toll system. Of course it’s also a way for them to ‘lock down’ the city – for crime fighting purposes they tell you, nonsense – it’s a NWO purpose. bla bla bla nightmare of note.

  • Burning Lamp

    Bev, if you look into how deeply Roger is entrenched into Missler and K-House, it is clear that he has painted himself into a corner as this association in one form or another has been going on for quite some time. They share a board member for one thing. Whether this is a trap he fell into and now doesn’t know how to extract himself, or if it was deliberate covert activity, only the Lord knows.

    Whatever, it has been exposed and it remains to be seen what will happen from here. There is one thing for certain, it has been a devastating revelation for those who trusted UTT.

    It behooves each of us to be vigilant and to test ALL spirits no matter how “kosher” they appear. We are living in a time when discernment is dead and deception has a free reign.

  • Daniel Knezacek

    [deleted] Daniel – I told you before that I am not allowing you to comment on my website – you poke fingers at pre-trib but your knowledge of bible prophecy is twisted and I will not have you spewing your nonsense over my blog.

  • Marion

    Latest update on the Missler expose’ can be found here:

    The Fear Of Chuck Missler-

    asks some very good questions…of the “discernment ministries”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    PLEASE READ my article on: Nancy Missler and Henrietta Mears

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Regarding the latest book by Chuck and Nancy Missler titled Kingdom, Power, and Glory: The Overcomer’s Hand book this is what THE BEREAN CALL had to say about the book:

    Quotes…

    “Nancy, has, in our view, serious doctrinal errors. The main thesis they present is that born-again believers fall into two categories: “overcomers” and “carnal Christians.” When both stand before Jesus at His judgment seat for rewards, those saved carnal Christians (whose lives have produced few, if any, good works) will be relegated to a place of outer darkness during the Millennium when overcoming Christians will rule and reign with Christ.” — http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8167

    “In addition to the implications regarding the gospel, it grieves me deeply that the Misslers’ book may spread anxiety and fear among evangelicals, much like I had as a Roman Catholic. I knew I had punishments awaiting me, even if I made it to purgatory. Being delivered from that fear when I put my faith in the One who paid the full penalty for my sins, my heart joyfully rested in His words: “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:1-2). There are many, many other verses that clearly show that Jesus will never separate Himself nor cast the believer away from Himself. We have His blessed assurance.” —-http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8167

  • Marion

    Deb…been there, done that (re: the above-mentioned articles). Do TONS of my own research about many, many things. Not an expert on anything, but have discovered MANY LIES. When one asks God to reveal whatever lies one has believed, with humility, willing to receive whatever He shows us, our GOOD God is pleased to do so; but it becomes a time consuming endeavor, because it is amazing how much there is, and it touches every part of life here on planet Earth!
    I’m very thankful to know God, and that He has given us His Word…written, and living – the Lord Jesus Christ. He has blessed us with “THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE”!

    Thought to ponder: “Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD. For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.” (Jer.2:12-13)KJV

    This is the condition of our wandering hearts…we need to repent and learn of HIM. Speaking of that, I think I’ll just go and sit at Jesus’ feet! Have a blessed day!

  • Burning Lamp

    It seems that Roger Oakland has withdrawn from the Red River Bible Prophecy Conference scheduled for March 2012. This is the conference where Chuck Missler is speaking. It is interesting that Ray Yungen is still on the roster – David Hocking has withdrawn as well.

    Does anyone care to make any observations about this? One can hope that it is an indication of a move in the right direction.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ohhhh YAY for Roger! A step in the right direction. Like you say, why is Ray still there.

  • [removed: comment found in SPAM section, but already re-posted by Willam]

  • I left another message on my I-Phone but I didn’t get the “awaiting moderation” statement.

    Anyway, with Roger Oakland pulling out of the conference last week (maybe the day I posted “The Fear Of Chuck Missler”?) it gives the “appearance” of moving in the right direction.

    However, it still doesn’t answer the fundamental question of why is Roger Oakland still connected to Chuck Missler?

    Why doesn’t Roger Oakland expose Chuck Missler for Missler’s endorsement of Rick Warren?

    Why doesn’t Roger Oakland expose Chuck Missler for Missler’s outrageous ECUMENISM with Rome?

    Why is Roger Oakland & ALL those “di$cernment” “mini$trie$” that expose all these other famous peoples endorsement/involvement with Rick Warren and/or ECUMENISM not saying JUST ONE WORD about Chuck Missler?

    Why is Chuck Missler getting a pass??????????

    Is this just a coincidence or is there something else going on?

    Are they all afraid to speak out? Are they afraid if they say something their $$$$ will be interrupted? What fear is being spread around.

    The clues can be found here –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/01/fear-of-chuck-missler.html

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/01/roger-oakland-enigma-revealed-in-these.html

  • Burning Lamp

    Shouldn’t we maybe take a “wait and see” approach to this latest development? It is a step in the right direction. Time will tell if it is a significant move and will be followed by other disconnections.

    Should we not be patient and wait upon the Lord? And pray. If it turns out to be a ploy, then so be it, but we don’t know what is going on in Roger’s heart, do we? Only God knows that.

    Just because Roger has not come out with guns blazing against Missler does not necessarily mean he is still 100% in his camp. It may have taken a lot of courage to step down from this conference. We just don’t know.

    It takes time to work one’s way out of associations such as board members. There are legal hoops to jump through and these things don’t happen in a day. These associations have been years in the making and may have started out innocently enough. Things may be in the works that we are not aware of. We don’t put our hope in men, but in God.

    Exposing these associations may have been the best favor ever done to Roger Oakland and maybe he is just beginning to realize it. We don’t know and I think we should reserve judgment, back off and pray as this is a spiritual battle.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    >> Shouldn’t we maybe take a “wait and see” approach to this latest development?

    I agree

    >> Time will tell if it is a significant move and will be followed by other disconnections.

    I agree

    >> Should we not be patient and wait upon the Lord? And pray.

    I agree

    >> but we don’t know what is going on in Roger’s heart, do we? Only God knows that.

    I agree

    >> It takes time to work one’s way out of associations such as board members.

    I agree

    >> We don’t know and I think we should reserve judgment, back off and pray as this is a spiritual battle.

    I agree

    >> If it turns out to be a ploy, then so be it

    Then so be it

  • Pray for Roger. What a mess.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    William

    Ahhh gotcha, I keep forgetting that this is not ‘new news’ to Roger.

  • Beverley

    Thank you Burning Lamp and Deboarh
    So Rodger and David have pulled out of the conference for March 2012. That must tell us something!! Not ‘new news’ is scary though, quite right William what a mess.

    In His Grip
    Beverley

  • Marion

    Update on Roger’s withdrawal from the Red River Conference with Chuck Missler; it’s not what I had hoped and prayed for – a “dissociation” and repudiation of Missler, his unbiblical teachings and alliances. Disappointingly, he STILL remains SILENT and those who continue to trust his “faithful” exposure of false religion, false teachers/teaching remain unaware and vulnerable. The one who warned that “certain men have crept in unawares” (Jude 4)…it appears, is actually one of them! It is good to remember that wolves run in “packs”.

    Here’s the link: http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/01/roger-oakland-stands-by-his-man-chuck.html

    Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.” (John 10:11-15)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marion

    Isn’t this sad!

    —–

    Roger:

    Ministry Update
    January 28, 2012

    Tomorrow I will be leaving for a 16 day trip to Asia that will take me to Manila, Philippines and Yangon, Myanmar. While we were waiting until the last minute for our visa, it did arrive. As per our last report, the ministry of Understand The Times will be spending most of our time in the future concentrating on the spiritual and physical needs of orphans and widows in at least four different countries – Philippines, Myanmar, South Africa and Kenya.
    While in Manila I will be speaking with Mike Miller at two different conferences, one at the high security jail and the other for a group of like-minded pastors who want to be educated about the present apostasy that has taken over North America. We will also be looking at the possibility of setting up our first Bryce Lodge in the Philippines.
    The second part of the trip will take me to Myanmar via Bangkok where we will be visiting our Bryce Lodges in Yangon. The leader of Bryce Lodge Five will be coming to Yangon to meet with us. One of our board members, Tom Worthington will be meeting me in Bangkok and we will travel on from there. More information will be released later when we determine the situation in Myanmar.
    Today I received a note from Dave and Krista Meisner in Durban, South Africa. They told me that we will be establishing three Bryce Homes there very soon. All of this is very encouraging. As you can see, God is moving us on in a new direction, leaving behind the sad state of affairs that are tearing apart the church in the Western world. I am in the process of canceling several conferences that I was invited to speak at in the United States where cutthroat Christianity seems to rule.
    Myrna has retired from her job so together we will move forward as God leads us.
    ———-

    So cutthroat Christianity forced him to cancel his conference with Chuck Missler. How nice! And here we thought he cancelled because he actually saw the light regarding the falseness of Chuck Missler.

    What a sad sad day. Never in my wildest dreams would I hear Roger Oakland call Christians who stand for the truth- cutthroats.

    Besides the people that Missler associates with the doctrines that Missler follows are also in question. And Roger supports Misslers ‘false teaching’ as well.

  • Redeemed

    Sad indeed.

  • Redeemed

    I would like to add some thoughts:

    Roger Oakland leaves those who have trusted and supported him through many trials in shock and confusion and afraid to trust again. What a betrayal!! And he considers HIMSELF the VICTIM ? And calls those who questioned him and tried to snatch him from the fire “cut throats”? Incredible!!!! The one who warned about false teachers owes his allegiance to one of the worst wolves!!

    If he is truly a believer, he will be severely chastened by the Lord or even called home permaturely. If he is not, then we know where that leads.

    He has not only disobeyed the Lord, but he has hurt and damaged the sheep, the walking wounded remnant who have already been misunderstood and mistreated by false shepherds. They had hoped and diligently prayed that he would do the right thing, but to no avail. It appears that he has turned himself over in the delusion that humanitarian works will be an acceptable offering to God. That brings to mind the story of Cain and Abel.

    How ironic that the title of his latest book is Let There Be Light. Was that a mockery of God’s words at creation and instead a reference to another light of which the Bible speaks, “an angel of light”? As incredible as that sounds, in “light” of what has been revealed, it doesn’t seem too preposterous to suggest.

    We don’t hate Roger, we mourn the loss of yet another casualty of the apostasy. We reserve our hatred for Satan who seeks to destroy the precious sheep of God and must be beside himself with glee, knowing he has dealt us a blow that may never heal completely until we are in our heavenly home. But we know Who is still on the throne and His truth WILL reign. We must not let this shake our faith in the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and keep our eyes on the prize and our Lord Jesus Christ and press on and finish the race.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Redeemed

    You know, and he did that fantastic DVD on exposing the RC Eucharist and yet… he supports Chuck Missler who is in bed with Rome. You would think he would want to run a mile after finding out the truth regarding Missler and all his EVIL – but no, he wants to hide the truth instead. And then goes on to insult the Body of Christ for exposing the lies and the evil that runs so deep it’s almost unfathomable.

    >> We don’t hate Roger, we mourn the loss of yet another casualty of the apostasy. We reserve our hatred for Satan who seeks to destroy the precious sheep of God and must be beside himself with glee, knowing he has dealt us a blow that may never heal completely until we are in our heavenly home.

    I still pray that Roger wakes up to what he has done and comes back to the Lord Jesus Christ.

  • Marion

    The saddest part of all this, is the bulk of those who trusted Roger as a faithful guide through apostasy are not wounded by this betrayal…because they don’t know the betrayal happened! (They won’t read about it on Roger’s site, or LIGHTHOUSE TRAILS – they have his books to sell, you know), and that’s their trusted sources for the latest “apostasy new breaks” – isn’t it? They will not know that Roger is hiding behind the skirts of “widows” – that he has been an unfaithful servant (a hireling?). They will read his update and think how wonderful! This deception is further helped along because none of the “big” name “discernment ministries” have covered this either. How many people even know about this website and the few faithful bloggers who have told the truth so that they can take heed? Take a look at all the “discernment/apologetic/worldview ministries” out there. Who has reported this story, which is as big as the Rick Warren expose’ that EVERYBODY jumped on; who “exposes” the false religion of Catholicism and warn constantly of the Jesuits? They are aware this is out there, have been contacted, and remain SILENT…WHY? One reason: so the discerning of God’s people will see…THEIR SILENCE BETRAYS THEM!

    THEY ARE CORRUPT AND HAVE BECOME ALTOGETHER UNPROFITABLE!

    But they will sell you their books and their DVDs to make merchandise of you!

    The Bible says, “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace they have not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:9-18)

    GOD has given us HIS WORD…let us LEARN OF HIM!

  • Redeemed

    Marion, you are right – many will pity Roger has been “bludgeoned” by “cut throat” Christians who have forced him to withdraw from his conferences. And by their silence the so-called discernment ministries will be aiding and abeting the enemy. They may know the facts but they will not speak out because it is too big a price to pay. And who knows if they had spoken out it would have convinced Roger to do the right thing and there would have been a choir instead of a solo.

    God will not abide with all of this for much longer – He is slow to anger and He is not willing that any should perish. But there is a day when He will close the door on the Church Age and we will all give an account. In that day those who stand for truth will be rewarded for what was counted loss in this life.

  • David Troxell

    I very recently discovered this amazing Blog site!

    And, I have an information source that I think will interest everyone who reads and participates in these blog discussions –

    The Philadelphia Promise Profile Exchange

    Let me say up front – this is NOT some sort of hidden advertising promotion – my company, Encourager Software – offers a FREE to use – NO registration software product – Product Scope 7 Viewer – to view data sets – and I have created a data set that deals specifically with discernment books, DVDs, articles and more.

    Philadelphia Promise Profile Exchange is designed to help you find discernment information on the Internet more quickly in an organized fashion – Updated – February 6, 2012. The latest contains reference to this blog.

    I wish I had known about this blog before, but I hope some will try out this resource, and help me improve it and keep it updated with the latest in discernment information! Please use email addresses on contact page – to send your thoughts, suggestions, improvements and resources to add.

    Use a software program – Product Scope 7 Viewer – Product Scope 7 Viewer IS free to use and NO registration fee!

    AND a data version of a Profile Exchange provides – Pricing, product description in memo format, display product images, order links, download links, and easy ways to view multiple products by category, and more!

    Let me re-state again – Product Scope 7 Viewer software program IS FREE to use – NO Registration, no time limits, we don’t even require an email address as some companies do for free software programs.

    Quickest way to view Philadelphia Promise Profile Exchange – DOWNLOAD a tutorial to start!

    Download – Philadelphia Promise Profile Exchange Install PDF Tutorial – Details at:

    The Philadelphia Promise Profile Exchange is based at this site

    David Troxell – First Load Up

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi David

    I hope who ever uses your software benefits from it greatly.

  • David Troxell

    Thanks Deborah,

    Actually, one of the problems discussed with this and similar blogs – the Body of Christ isn’t getting enough information, fast enough about these deceptions. Most of us seem to be waiting for the major discernment authors to release the “next book” or “article” – but we need to find additional methods to circulate vital information (including making more aware of your blog) – I am hoping the Philadelphia Promise Profile Exchange can become a more central point where PROVEN reliable research can be posted in a very timely manner. So, again, I hope others will download this free resource – and help me improve it by your suggestions. Thanks for being faithful!

    David – First Load Up – Philadelphia Promise Profile Exchange

  • I just think it sad that all of these individuals are falling away from their true calling. Whatever the pressure may be. They have done some damage to the true message of Christ by distorting it and including their own understanding of things. This makes me think of two verses.

    1 Corinthians 1:20-25 reads ” 20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.”

    And….
    2 Timothy 4:3-4 reads
    “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.”

    Too many of them are adding to the Gospel with their own thoughts and “so-called” visions. Their messages may sound good to the everyday person, but are way off from what the bible teaches. If there is any contrast from the scripture, it is our duty to expose them. Thank you all for your seemingly long hours of work finding all the facts and putting them out here for the world to see. I just hope that they turn from their ways before the do too much damage to our witness as Christians.

    God Bless!

    Encouraging Thoughts for Life

  • Dion

    Bless you Derrick for these words!

  • Marion

    New update regarding Chuck Missler can be found here…

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/02/apostasy-of-dr-chuck-missler.html

    thanx to William Saunders for his meticulous research, as always.

  • David Troxell

    Deborah,

    This actually concerns another of William Saunders – first rate articles concerning his research about Chuck Missler at William’s blog site:

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/02/apostasy-of-dr-chuck-missler.html

    William doesn’t post any email address to respond – and I don’t have any of the blog accounts his blog requires to leave a comment – but I think this will be helpful information in general to anyone following his research –

    Another first rate article with one glaring default –

    William,

    I appreciate the Chuck Missler articles – you and Donna Martin of Fanatic for Jesus have documented on your respective blogs.

    However, I think you impugned some of your “homework” by including the Dr Walter Martin TBN appearance picture and by it’s inclusion, will cause many readers to infer that Dr Martin (now deceased) was in the same kind of error that OTHERS prominently mentioned time and again in your articles – ARE.

    If everyone who ever befriended Chuck Missler through the years are now – guilty by association – a lot of VERY Godly people are in “trouble”.

    But, that is not the case, many were misled, yes, and as your research and that of Donna Martin has proved – his deceptions through the years were very clever, very well hidden, and even now, some Godly leaders still want to give him (Chuck) the benefit of the doubt, but hopefully continued research will persuade them –

    2 Peters 2:1 ESV But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

    Jackie Alnor of Apostasy Alert (http://www.apostasyalert.org/) documented Dr Martin’s appearance on TBN in this blog –

    and a 5 part post to YouTube – a home recording of the broadcast she taped.

    Part 1 – Dr Walter Martin – TBN
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4-DFSFBeT8

    “Uploaded by jalnor on Mar 13, 2011

    Walter Martin defending the faith, circa 1985, on TBN with host Doug Clark. Neither the host nor the guest were ever invited back and the program was not reaired the following Monday as it was scheduled.”

    “I stayed home to work the VCR I didn’t know how to program, while my two sisters attended, one in the green room and one in the audience we had stacked with many friends. Walter gave it to them with both barrels. Not only was the program not replayed at its regular slot, but the tapes were not available when people followed up to request one.

    Back in those days any Praise-the-Lord program could be bought on audio cassette for a small fee. And both Walter Martin and Doug Clark were never invited back. We had heard years later from Doug Clark that during the interview he kept receiving notes via the stage manager from Jan Crouch calling in telling Doug to “shut that guy up” and other nasty comments.”

    In light of this research, My hope is you’ll revise your blog to exclude the Dr Martin picture and reference.

    David Troxell

    David – First Load Up – Philadelphia Promise Profile Exchange

  • Hi David,

    Actually there is a place where I can be contacted and/or leave a comment.

    Sometimes I don’t allow comments on certain articles, but the latest one is open.

    As far as Walter Martin is concerned he is just as responsible for his actions as we are.

    If Walter Martin went on to do what he did only to never get invited back, I can be OK with that. We can mistakenly do something like appear on TBN, never to return. I never heard Walter Martin renounce his appearance on TBN even though he might have.

    However, that wasn’t the case with Chuck Missler or his other two “mentors”, Chuck Smith & Hal Lindsey. They enjoyed the appearances.

    Maybe Walter Martin’s appearance on TBN gave Missler the idea it was OK to do so.

    I have a video clip from January 11, 2011 when Mike MacIntosh (Horizon/Calvary Chapel), Raul Ries (Calvary Chapel), & Chuck Girard (Calvary Chapel) all appeared on TBN. In this broadcast I have the clip of, Mike MacIntosh reminded Paul Crouch Jr of when Chuck Smith & Paul Crouch Sr met in Chuck Smith’s office to “ink deals” with TBN 40 years earlier (~71′).

    Chuck Missler, Chuck Smith, TBN go back a long way together.

    Missler is no dummy, Missler knows exactly what he’s doing. TBN is a place where they can sell merchandise.

    The TBN audience is the perfect audience to buy whatever is being sold (spiritually & monetarily), no discernment whatsoever.

    This whole problem stems from “men lifting up men” which is an abomination.

    Luke 16:15 (KJV) – “And He said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.”

    If you notice in my article, I really didn’t go after Walter Martin.

    – I provided the Walter Martin video clip to show Chuck Missler his “mentor” stated Sun Myung Moon denied the deity of Christ. If Walter Martin is truly Chuck Missler’s “mentor”, shouldn’t Chuck Missler be “receiving” spiritual “wisdom” & “discernment” from Walter Martin on the Sun Myung Moon/Tim LaHaye partnership? Wouldn’t the words from your “mentor” steer you away from Tim LaHaye? That didn’t happen did it? Instead, Chuck Missler & Tim LaHaye became partners.

    – I provided the evidence that Tim LaHaye said to Moon “Your suffering will cleanse the sins of America” and Tim LaHaye taking money from Sun Myung Moon

    – I provided the evidence that Chuck Missler asked Tim LaHaye in 2007 to be on Chuck Missler’s “Board of Regents” for the Koinonia Institute. On the Strategic Perspectives DVD I cite, Chuck Missler says to Tim LaHaye that they are “partners” in a very strong tone.

    The question to Chuck Missler is this –

    If your beloved “mentor” Walter Martin states that Sun Myung Moon denies the deity of Christ, Tim LaHaye states words to the effect that Sun Myung Moon is the Messiah by saying his “suffering will cleanse the sins of America”, Tim LaHaye takes money from Sun Myung Moon, WHY, CHUCK MISSLER are you becoming “PARTNERS” with Tim LaHaye?

    If Chuck Missler is this alleged “great Biblical scholar”, where is ONE SHRED of “Biblical discernment”?????????

    What Chuck Missler is doing is revealing he isn’t the guy everyone made him out to be AT ALL.

    Chuck Missler is the “perfect delivery system” for any deception Satan wants to deliver to the church.

    Our sinful nature loves to lift up men, that’s why the Lord told us not to do it.

    Chuck Missler has the “perfect resume” for us sinful gullible sheep to lift up. We sinful gullible sheep love “credentials”, “IQ”, scholarship, or anything we can lift up in a worldly sense. We all do it to one degree or another.

    Chuck Missler always reminds his audience of all his credentials, it’s a way to prepare us to believe whatever he is going to tell us. He, in his own self spiritually blinding pride (Obadiah 1:3), may not even realize what he is doing, but it works for Satan.

    When we lift up men it’s a sin, when we sin we become spiritually blinded, when we become spiritually blinded we will lose discernment, when we lose discernment we are ready to receive deception.

    The material he delivers could all be “ghostwritten”. He just delivers it.

    Walter Martin should be the least of concerns on the latest article. I use the Walter Martin stuff to prove a point on another issue.

    ephesians511blog@yahoo.com

    God Bless

  • DTW says: PLEASE READ THIS SHOCKING STORY about Light Louse Trails and Kenya:

    I was foolish enough to allow LHT to “stand” with the ministry I had in Kenya called 4J Ministries. We were distributing Bibles, warning pastors about the deception in the church and I had purchased land for a discipleship center in Suna with money donated by friends in America. This was in SUNA. LHT was “helping” by inviting their donors to work along side of us in this ministry.

    I believe we are not to add to or diminish from the commandments of God. I believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ and in the resurrection of Christ, however, those so-called Christian holidays were brought into the Christian faith by the Catholic Churck and because of scripture I do not celebrate these occassions. I had written to Deborah at LHT back in September of 2010 telling her of my beliefs because I didn’t want a problem since they had decided to “stand” with us. She wrote back that there was “no problem” since they felt the same way. She DID remove a blog I had from her site that I had written about Xmas but I didn’t worry about it. I had another blog that she left up that I just used for basically updates about our ministry. She and I had discussed this issue and she had told me they didn’t mess with this side issues. THEN, what we thought was a real blessing….Roger Oakland decided to come here to Kenya and speak for 6 days in November of 2011.

    Soon after that I wrote on my blog http://www.pikipikimama4jesus.wordpress a blog called “Baby Jesus” dicussing these “holidays” that had been ADDED to the Christian religion. Suddenly I got an e-mail from Deborah asking me to take it down and then asking me also to take down any articles where I had mentioned we should just use the KJV Bible. They said they were not asking me to compromise but that I should do it because the donors were upset over the blog. I did not take down the blog because I believed it was written in truth and yes, for me it WAS a compromise. Then LHT suddenly removed anything and everything to do with the 4J Ministries on their site. My pastor called them and both Deborah and her husband Dave were there and were asking the pastor if he was “alone” so they could talk. They thought I wasn’t there. They were telling him that I was a liar and that I was a false teacher and that I was taking people back into legalism (I had formerly been in a legalistic church).

    I was horrified at what they were saying, and more horrified that the pastor just sat there and said nothing in my defense! They told him they wanted the FAX number at his bank as they wanted to write him a letter that no one else would see. My pastor began acting very strangely and soon after I discovered that LHT and UTT had gone behind my back to this pastor and that they had offered to support him and all the other team members including educating their children. But, I realized that meant getting me, Mama Jo, out of the way. I found out they had written a 5 page letter absolutly slandering me and saying all kinds of untruths. I THOUGHT those people were my friends! The credit for the discipleship center vision was suddenly given to this pasotr and his pastoral team and it was all back up on their site with absolutely no mention of ME….as if I were dead! Even Roger Oakland said that Pastor Acilla’s vision of having a discipleship center for the pastors was unprecidented…I have a video where BOTH this pastor and his wife were speaking of me as being the “owner” of the vision and that it was the vision God gave to me. I have the e-mails to PROVE everything I have said and many, many witnesses that I have NEVER spoken anything that was false or twisted any scriptures.

    Roger Oakland wrote to LHT (I have it on an e-mail that Deborah sent to me that I guess she didn’t realize his response was attatched or maybe she did, I don’t know, but Roger stated that my “rhetoric was very Satanic”, that I had a Jim Jones personality, that I had usurped authority over the pastors, and that I had used LHT and UTT to advance my own perverted views. I was just sick! When I wrote to Deborah to defend my stand and tell her she had made a terrible mistake, she just wrote back and said, “You are a false teacher and a dangerous one.” I had not changed anything in the ministry, I was still teaching what I had always taught…to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. I didn’t know what had happened, but almost overnight my ministry was gone, I had been slandered and discredited and letters sent out to all the donors of LHT. They just basically stole the discipleship center, Contenders for the Faith Discipleship Center, right out from under me.

    The pastor told me he had decided to work with them, blaming me because I was the one who wrote the blog and that I wasn’t a team player because I refused to yield to their request that I take down my articles on my blogs. I have always taught the pastors to stand for the truth and never compromise even if it cost you everything. Well, I did stand for the truth and I refused to compromise….Deborah did ask if I realized what it would cost me….yes, it cost me everything, but I will continue to stand for the truth and not compromise. God has given me a new ministry called Treasure Keepers Kenya and our vision is the same, bring the Body of Christ BACK to the AKJV Bible and to hide it in their hearts, to have an intimate personal relationship with Jesus Christ, to know Him and to obey the gospel.

    I began to see that these ministries would not respond to anything they had done…all I met with was SILENCE and I was slandered! NOW, I see this is how they act…so I wasn’t imagining things. I realized they wanted that discipleship center. It was wonderful and born out of a love for pastors to have a place to go to be grounded in the word of God.

    Then I saw the article about the Redriver Prophecy Conference at which Roger was to speak and how people thought maybe he was backing off from Chuck Missler…well, how convenient that he decided that he needed to cancel so he could make another trip to Kenya. I believe he has returned as I sit here writing this message. I did send an article to LHT re Roger Oakland’s association with Chuck Missler and they wrote back and told me I belonged with the one who wrote that article and not to write to them again unless I had a repentant heart! Repent for WHAT? They literally destroyed my ministry and took away the discipleship center!! Everything is now under Missions for Truth. Roger has set up his Bryce homes and they’ve started a school and are helping widows and orphans in conjunction with LHT. Well, WHO would even notice that they came in and tried to destroy a 70 year old woman? NO ONE!! I wrote responses to them on my http://www.pikipikimama4jesus.wordpress.com site but I have found no one to stand for me except a few of the former LHT readers who actually wrote to me and said they were standing with me. I was amazed. Two of the former 4J Team pastors have stood with me in the new Treasure Keepers ministry and we are passionate in our ministry to bring the truth and get these pastors back into the word of God and off the reading of these books put out by these men who are getting rich off of them.

    I don’t know why I have written this, for who cares…but I wonder if any other small ministries are also in peril of these wolves in sheeps clothing who claim to be ministers of light if they (LHT and UTT) should decide that THEY have something that these people want and would benefit from…will they do to them what they have done to me? I can PROVE they LIED about me yet who can I tell? What can I do? Well, I have gone to GOD, and HE knows and I KNOW that they will NOT get away with what they have done. God will not be mocked and the truth WILL stand. I am thankful I found out about these people now before my own reputation was really ruined because of associating with them. Once I found out about Roger Oakland’s associations I would have dropped them anyway. We are Treasure Keepers and will fight to keep this true word of God (AKJV) in our hearts…2Corintians chapter 4…in these earthen vessels. Thanks for letting me have a place to say what I have said. God bless you and thank you for standing for the truth.


    Joetta, I am so sorry that I didn’t post your comment sooner, I was not online. But it’s now online for all to read.

  • Hi folks

    William has done allot of Good works on exposing missler as I have already known the extent of his apostacy, on the issue of Missler I have contacted Both Roger Oakland and Ron Matson (Director K.House Europe) I do believe their are lose connections as Ron Matson is the a member of the UTT board.

    Ron Matson has confermed that both Roger and Ron has said that Roger has no association with Missler directly, but I believe that Roger does associate with K.House as its european person is supportive of Roger.

    I am not happy about the whole situation, as I fully intend on exposing Chuck Missler as a compromiser.

    As I have addressed the Missler issue with Jacob Prasch and have yet to have the Calvary Chapel issue addressed with Moriel as another big problem.

    I dont think the issue for me is Oakland as a whole as Missler is another story.

    we do pray for roger as we are not to attack him personally I dont believe William is doing this.

    I will be adding his articles to my website to address and expose missler..

    God bless Deborah

    Miguel

  • Carol Williamson

    This soundly convinces me….sola scriptura and let the Bible interpret the Bible. Let God be true and all men be liars…..I have wasted precious time….years….reading books about THE Book…the only Book that has the words of eternal life. I will take the books to the dump lest they stumble or distract others. Maybe I will burn some of them to protect the dumpster divers. I just want to fill my mind with truth about The Truth, the Life, the Way. Thank you for the time you have taken to try to protect the sheep from the wolves. We need to pick up our Bibles and devour them while we still have them. God bless the soldiers of the Cross.

  • Marion

    What folks fail to realize, is that all these reports that Roger Oakland doesn’t “associate directly” with Missler misses the point…and in my opinion is a smokescreen.

    The point being, because someone (Ron and Roger) has “said” that Roger is not “directly associated” with Missler, we’re to just believe that? Really? As if men caught in a transgression don’t lie? (I guess it might be considered OK, if was to “save” a “ministry.” That’s how that works, right?)

    EVEN IF it were true that Roger doesn’t “directly associate” with Missler, it does not explain why Roger (self-proclaimed watchman on the wall) does not expose Chuck as complicit with Rome, and protect the flock of God (which would be his charge…correct?)…end or story. When I had emailed Roger myself, asking about this his reply was that he “wasn’t going to go there.” WOW!

    And just because for Miguel, Roger is not an issue, does not mean Roger is not an issue. There has been no attack on Roger that I have seen here; merely a reporting of the facts and questions. Questions that Roger has yet to answer.

    It appears to me that Miguel is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Above he stated:

    “I dont think the issue for me is Oakland as a whole as Missler is another story.
    we do pray for roger as we are not to attack him personally I dont believe William is doing this.
    I will be adding his articles to my website to address and expose missler..”

    Implying that Roger is being attacked, but saying he doesn’t think William is doing that…WHAT????????????

    As far as associations go, it doesn’t matter what “Ron” or anyone else says, the facts speak for themselves, as well as the unanswered questions, and the continued SILENCE of Roger Oakland and ALL the other “discernment” “ministries.” For a further help to this discussion regarding associations, check out info on this source…

    BTW…I went to Miguel’s website, and he has not posted, as of yet, William Saunders’ article…the site indicate a KHouse/Chuck Missler expose’ is “coming soon.” It’s been over 6 weeks since Miguel’s above response, and over 6 months since this story broke. I hope he doesn’t plan on using the “discernment conference” material that will be presented in June in Michigan to “educate” the “sheep” about the errors of Chuck’s teaching. (I’ve read some of the information – exposure of his teaching is a good thing – but falls short of showing him complicit with Rome, and many of his other dubious associations. There needs to be reproving not only of the heresy being taught, but of the man himself!

    That conference seems to be a bogus “controlled opposition” scenario. Check out the information about that on the May 27 through June 2 articles here:

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com

    Carol…EXCELLENT CONCLUSION…WOULD THAT ALL GOD’S PEOPLE WOULD DO LIKEWISE!

  • I originally sent this in on February 2oth and it still states “awaiting moderation”. I figured it got stuck somehow –

    Hi David,

    Actually there is a place where I can be contacted and/or leave a comment.

    Sometimes I don’t allow comments on certain articles, but the latest one is open.

    As far as Walter Martin is concerned he is just as responsible for his actions as we are.

    If Walter Martin went on to do what he did only to never get invited back, I can be OK with that. We can mistakenly do something like appear on TBN, never to return. I never heard Walter Martin renounce his appearance on TBN even though he might have.

    However, that wasn’t the case with Chuck Missler or his other two “mentors”, Chuck Smith & Hal Lindsey. They enjoyed the appearances.

    Maybe Walter Martin’s appearance on TBN gave Missler the idea it was OK to do so.

    I have a video clip from January 11, 2011 when Mike MacIntosh (Horizon/Calvary Chapel), Raul Ries (Calvary Chapel), & Chuck Girard (Calvary Chapel) all appeared on TBN. In this broadcast I have the clip of, Mike MacIntosh reminded Paul Crouch Jr of when Chuck Smith & Paul Crouch Sr met in Chuck Smith’s office to “ink deals” with TBN 40 years earlier (~71′).

    Chuck Missler, Chuck Smith, TBN go back a long way together.

    Missler is no dummy, Missler knows exactly what he’s doing. TBN is a place where they can sell merchandise.

    The TBN audience is the perfect audience to buy whatever is being sold (spiritually & monetarily), no discernment whatsoever.

    This whole problem stems from “men lifting up men” which is an abomination.

    Luke 16:15 (KJV) – “And He said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.”

    If you notice in my article, I really didn’t go after Walter Martin.

    – I provided the Walter Martin video clip to show Chuck Missler his “mentor” stated Sun Myung Moon denied the deity of Christ. If Walter Martin is truly Chuck Missler’s “mentor”, shouldn’t Chuck Missler be “receiving” spiritual “wisdom” & “discernment” from Walter Martin on the Sun Myung Moon/Tim LaHaye partnership? Wouldn’t the words from your “mentor” steer you away from Tim LaHaye? That didn’t happen did it? Instead, Chuck Missler & Tim LaHaye became partners.

    – I provided the evidence that Tim LaHaye said to Moon “Your suffering will cleanse the sins of America” and Tim LaHaye taking money from Sun Myung Moon

    – I provided the evidence that Chuck Missler asked Tim LaHaye in 2007 to be on Chuck Missler’s “Board of Regents” for the Koinonia Institute. On the Strategic Perspectives DVD I cite, Chuck Missler says to Tim LaHaye that they are “partners” in a very strong tone.

    The question to Chuck Missler is this –

    If your beloved “mentor” Walter Martin states that Sun Myung Moon denies the deity of Christ, Tim LaHaye states words to the effect that Sun Myung Moon is the Messiah by saying his “suffering will cleanse the sins of America”, Tim LaHaye takes money from Sun Myung Moon, WHY, CHUCK MISSLER are you becoming “PARTNERS” with Tim LaHaye?

    If Chuck Missler is this alleged “great Biblical scholar”, where is ONE SHRED of “Biblical discernment”?????????

    What Chuck Missler is doing is revealing he isn’t the guy everyone made him out to be AT ALL.

    Chuck Missler is the “perfect delivery system” for any deception Satan wants to deliver to the church.

    Our sinful nature loves to lift up men, that’s why the Lord told us not to do it.

    Chuck Missler has the “perfect resume” for us sinful gullible sheep to lift up. We sinful gullible sheep love “credentials”, “IQ”, scholarship, or anything we can lift up in a worldly sense. We all do it to one degree or another.

    Chuck Missler always reminds his audience of all his credentials, it’s a way to prepare us to believe whatever he is going to tell us. He, in his own self spiritually blinding pride (Obadiah 1:3), may not even realize what he is doing, but it works for Satan.

    When we lift up men it’s a sin, when we sin we become spiritually blinded, when we become spiritually blinded we will lose discernment, when we lose discernment we are ready to receive deception.

    The material he delivers could all be “ghostwritten”. He just delivers it.

    Walter Martin should be the least of concerns on the latest article. I use the Walter Martin stuff to prove a point on another issue.

    ephesians511blog@yahoo.com

    God Bless

    New Comment posted June 4, 2012 –

    Welcome back Debs!!

    I have done much posting since February 20th.

    The latest post might be one of the most important because it shows Koinonia Institute using Martin Erdmann’s name as an instructor while he speaks out against Chuck Missler.

    Martin Erdmann posted on his website that he is has NEVER been an instructor and has asked to have his name removed form the Koinonia Institute documentation.

    SOMETHING VERY FISHY IS GOING ON.

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/06/purposeful-deception-at-chuck-misslers.html

  • jilliran

    I am devastated by the information from so many. I have had close dealings with two men mentioned on here and am very sad.
    I have had misgivings about Chuck Missler since reading the first 100 or so pages of The Kingdom, Power and Glory. I have found that trying to concentrate on Bible study while drifting off to his achievements, qualifications and cosmic and quantum theories, has been quite unnerving. Also while doing the Isaiah studies recently, it was really hard to follow the Bible as he used a Schofield King James (I am told) which is much different from my Cambridge King James.
    Questions keep popping up in my mind about different people mentioned and I need to take it all to the Lord quietly.
    I did today destroy all my Khouse bible study notes and CD’s/DVD’s and all stored MP3 downloads in my computer. If we are wrong, I still have my wonderfully perfect King James Bible. Thank You Lord!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    jilliran

    Let the Holy Spirit guide you as your read your bible and let HIM be your teacher and notice the joy you receive as you find out you didn’t need Missler and all his notes, cds and dvd’s. There is nothing like being taught the bible by the Holy Spirit, and when in doubt then go to mens teachings and let the Holy Spirit tell you what is right and what is wrong.

  • Marion

    I agree with your note above, Debs, BUT respectfully disagree about the “when in doubt then go to mens teachings and let the Holy Spirit tell you what is right and what is wrong.”

    When Jesus left this earth, He left His disciples with only 2 things to guide their faith and living…His Word and His Spirit. No commentaries, books, DVDs, conferences, etc. It is the words, written/spoken of men, for even discerning, Spirit-led Christians can be deceived…because the words of men sound so right…remember that error is clothed in much truth.

    “And that from a chld thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Tim.3:15-17)

    “And moreover, because the Preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

    The Preacher sought to find out acceptable words; and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
    The words of the wise are goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
    And further by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
    Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    For God shall bring every work into judgment, and with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” (Ecc. 12:9-14)

    In addition, let us all be cautioned: with what are we filling the hearts and minds of our children/grandchildren?

    A link to the above missionary to Kenya, Joetta Smith’s blog entitled “A Wake-Up Call” is a timely word.

    http://www.faithoncedelivered.com/apps/blog/entries/show/12622592-wake-up-call

    Thanx Debs, and a blessing on all GOD’s people!
    And for all those in error, may they repent, for there is a good, and gracious God in heaven, and lo, the Redeemer, He liveth!…saying “Come”!

    “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say; Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    He which testifieth these things saith, ‘Surely I come quickly.’ Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. (Rev. 22:17-21)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marion

    >> I agree with your note above, Debs, BUT respectfully disagree about the “when in doubt then go to mens teachings and let the Holy Spirit tell you what is right and what is wrong.”

    When Jesus left this earth, He left His disciples with only 2 things to guide their faith and living…His Word and His Spirit. No commentaries, books, DVDs, conferences, etc. It is the words, written/spoken of men, for even discerning, Spirit-led Christians can be deceived…because the words of men sound so right…remember that error is clothed in much truth.

    Erm, then why are there teachers and preachers commissioned as per scripture? You are on my website and others ‘mens’ websites learning info as the Holy Spirit guides you, right? There are scriptures that even I do not understand, but other men, far far far more intelligent than I have learnt what they mean, and I will STUDY their findings to find myself approved – And with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, He will inform me if these studies are correct or not.

    In reading my sentence you have ignored the fact that I place all guidance in learning on the Holy Spirit and not men. Of course you can’t just read anyone’s stuff, that is clearly obvious. According to your thinking you are not allowed to read anothers writings other than the bible, even if those writing are clearly biblical. So you need to turn off your pc now and stop reading others writings ;P including this comment. Theology is not as simple as just quoting verses here and there, many great men have gone before us (teachers and preachers) and have studied and supplied wonderful biblical books that will never replace the bible, but do help us understand scripture more ALWAYS with the GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Without the Holy Spirit one will never understand scripture, that means 1 verse or the whole scheme of things, it’s just impossible.

  • Marion

    Truly, we do learn from one another…

    There are things I learn on websites…but not doctrine, nor theology. The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit are sufficient. I do recognize your emphasis on the Holy Spirit’s guidance, who alone leads us into all truth.

    Sometimes, I think because of the “fast food” world we live in, we don’t take the time to search out a matter in the Scriptures and wait upon God. There are some things I am seeking to understand presently. I am not reading the thoughts of other fallible men or jumping to my own understanding, but waiting on God and patiently searching it out. This takes time. Time we no longer will dedicate to searching out the deep things. Many want to just “know” and move on; knowledge puffeth up. I think this is dangerous and leaves us vulnerable; especially the babes. We are to “as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.” (1 Pet. 2:2) That is for ALL of us, not just the newborn babes in Christ.

    We must never forget that the Word of God is to have pre-eminence! (And no, I’m not implying that you have forgotten, because clearly, you haven’t) Believe me, I trust no man…only the Word of God! Heaven and earth will pass away, but His Word will never pass away! I have been terribly deceived in the past…strong walls fortify a city…God’s word is that strong wall of defense, protecting us from breach and collapse…I have learned the hard way! It was God who revealed to me how I got in such a mess to begin with. I merely pass on what I have learned.

    There are many men teaching many things…even truth…only later, to be found out that they run in the wolf packs, their person and agenda suspect…and are actually leading folks unawares to the feet of other “teachers”. and strange teachings…as sheep to the slaughter! Funny, when sheep are being rounded up for slaughter – they have no clue, and offer no protest! I can share several personal such cases…we do not know men. But our boast and glory can be in God and His preserved and preserving word!

    Example above…how many people are shocked by this news about Chuck Missler?…having said his teaching and doctrine had always been solid…but then… There are “hidden” things being done in secret by many. God’s word is our defense. I still think it better not to go there!

    Isn’t it good, that we don’t have to agree on every point? We have each made points that are worth considering…and let each one who reads, before God…decide their course. I appreciate you greatly and the work you do here!

  • Burning Lamp

    Marion, Debs is correct – God has raised up Bible teachers to exposit the Word. There are still some that can be trusted, but most of them have gone to their reward because so many today have become corrupted.

    There is certainly nothing wrong with reading the Word and then referring to a trustworthy commentary because the Holy Spirit gives some the gift of teaching.

    Good grief! The Body is supposed to minister to each other and the Holy Spirit didn’t impart gifts for us to not use them. The Bible tells us to stir up our gifts and not to neglect them because they are not given for the individual, but for the edification of the Church.

    It is our place to discern whether a teacher is putting forth biblical truth or not. We never are to totally trust any person above God, but God does use other persons to edify us.

  • reaching4truth

    I’m gonna chime in with Marion here and second her remarks and assessments offered in her comment, two comments up, pertaining to Roger, and Missler, and Miquel Hayworth.

    Six weeks Miguel? You’re gonna have a hard time convincing me that you’re a serious contender for the truth with that amount of timelapse.

    And Marion makes the excellent point that it would be nothing for those whose hands have been caught in the cookie jar to deny the witnesses saw what they saw. Roger’s lack of “direct” association with Missler is simply a smokescreen, while he carries on behind the scenes with him. There are connections still, which remain unbroken.

    Marion, I like the way you think. We could all take a lesson. Nobody’s gotta make anything up in order to arrive at the proper conclusion. There is definitely a coverup going on here. You have to will yourself dumb to miss it. The evidence is stinkin’ spilling over to the point of burying us! Time to wake up those critical thinking skills.

  • Marion

    Additional notes: my comments were opinion/advice based on my own bad experiences with deception related to “christian” materials, and not knowing the hearts of men and from whence those come who desire to teach and lead. I certainly don’t expect that everyone will share my views and heed that advice; and that’s okay; perhaps it’s not for everyone. But for some, such a word of warning my save them from “wandering” as in the wilderness, regret and heartache. These days, I would rather err on the side of caution – even if it seems extreme.

    Perhaps this will be better understood after I place a comment to the “Nancy Missler and Henrietta Mears” thread. See you there!

  • reaching4truth

    And Miguel, certainly you are not so naive… You said:

    Ron Matson has confermed that both Roger and Ron has said that Roger has no association with Missler directly, but I believe that Roger does associate with K.House as its european person is supportive of Roger.

    You’re gonna let Roger get away with that? That’s one of the oldest tricks in the book.

    Look, if Roger has anything at all to do with anything related to Missler — especially one of Missler’s branches — I don’t care WHAT he says about his relationship to Missler; it’s a lie! These guys talk out of both sides of their mouth. It’s disingenuous — and a very old trick.

    Don’t wanna be associated with someone? Don’t have anything to do with any aspect of their “ministry”.

    It’s that simple.

  • mom4truth

    Hey Debs,

    Looks like we both have taken some time away from the internet world. Probably for very similar reasons, I would assume. I would like to email you privately as well.

    I came across William Saunder’s blog today and my jaw hit the floor with his latest expose on Lighthouse Trails/Roger Oakland/Joetta Smith. As you know, I had previously (like a couple of years ago) left a message on here warning about heresy concerns with LHT and Roger Oakland. In fact, while you were understanding and equally concerned, i.e with Oakland’s scathing words about Christians who refrain from participating in the pagan celebration that is X-mas, some on here were a bit defensive and protective over Oakland, despite legitimate issues raised. “Perhaps it was his head injury…” Perhaps not. Perhaps some have been given over to a reprobate mind to do that which is inconvenient.

    I had private email contact about a year ago with Joetta, Mama Jo, about my concerns with LHT and Roger Oakland. I was utterly dismissed. Now, to come across these articles just shows that the warnings were accurate.

    As I’ve said before, this adoration of man has got to stop! Contrary to what a previous poster said, “There is certainly nothing wrong with reading the Word and then referring to a trustworthy commentary because the Holy Spirit gives some the gift of teaching,” Scripture has a different opinion:

    1 John 2:27 “But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.”

    It is this constant looking for man’s wisdom that has put so many, including Joetta Smith, and formally myself, in the terrible position of humiliation and pain caused by following a wolf, rather than the engrafted Word, which is able to save our souls. James 1:21

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    mom4truth

    Got the email,thanks!

  • Burning Lamp

    Mom4Truth, in the timeframe that the comments to which you refer were made, there was no reason to question LHT/UTT.

    You falsely accuse those who did not immediately agree with you as valuing man over God. Personally I put my faith in NO MAN! I do RESPECT servants of the Lord and at the time it appeared that Roger Oakland was worthy of the benefit of the doubt. We are not to be quick to judge anyone.

    But there was no question when things changed and it was shown that there was more to the picture than had previously been brought to light. This is how the discernment process works.

    You were offended because Mama Jo didn’t receive what you had to say. She had every reason to trust LHT/UTT at that time to work with her to serve in Kenya. Yes, she has been hurt, but that is THEIR problem, not hers. Just because she trusted them does NOT mean that she trusted them more than she did God.

    And your snide referral to the comment I made about using a good commentary was not helpful. Sister, God’s Word has not changed and He DOES raise up people with the gift of teaching. For clarification, I was referring to those who have gone before and have been PROVEN trustworthy to rightly divide the Word of God. I was NOT referring to anyone who is alive and breathing today because they must be constantly evaluated to see if they are speaking truth.

    Of course not all those who passed are to be trusted. One must use discretion and discernment here also, but there are some whose expositional works are beneficial in conjunction with studying the Word and I can vouch that certain works have been a blessing to me. I don’t value any of these men over God and they would be horrified if I did. They were HUMBLE men of God who took their calling VERY seriously!

    It is sad to see your blanket condemnation of anyone who might use a commentary as a tool to assist in Bible study. It does NOT replace or take away from the Word of God.

    To deny this is to deny that God has gifted people with the gift of teaching! But he has also given the gift of discernment which sadly so few seem to use. You are right, it is man’s nature to trust man, someone we can see and hear tangibly. But this was not what I was advocating in any way shape or form!!

  • To mom4truth –

    I have a follow-up article to the Lighthouse Trails/Roger Oakland article that should be coming out maybe as early as tomorrow.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Guys,

    You may be interested to see my new article called “Chuck Missler. His Vatican, Ecumenical Associations and Other Apostasies Exposed” on [removed]
    Deborah, I have used your link to direct my readers to read this article of yours. I have also added some other interesting information which may interest you.

    God bless

  • John Chingford

    Regarding the conversation about whether we should listen to bible teachers, I sort of place myself in the middle somewhere between the thoughts of Marion, Deborah and Burning Lamp.

    The problem with bible teachers is that they tend to press home their own personal interpretations or their own theological positions. For those who know their Bibles it is easier to sift through any baggage and recognise what parts are helpful and which parts are not. But for those who are “babes in Christ” it is more difficult for them.

    In the natural a child goes through its informative years in which its thinking is conformed by external influences. The same happens with a babe in Christ. If that child is exposed to false teaching it will influence the way he/she reads/studies the Bible. Of course the Holy Spirit IS our teacher and will help us to recognise truth from error. The key is whether that child is truly born again or not. If born again having the Holy Spirit within, then surely the Holy Spirit will guide them as to whether teaching is true or false and will guide the child.

    In reality, our spiritual journey takes a life time in which we face many perils including false teaching. We also (at times) fall into temptation and sin i.e walk in the flesh rather than the Spirit. It is during these times that we can become vulnerable to all sorts of things including willingly accepting false teaching.

    Hebrews 5:12-14 is excellent in this discussion:

    “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

    Specifically notice the last sentence. Those who spend much time in the Word give themselves a chance to grow and by applying the Word of God to their lives develop discernment.

    The question should be HOW we are discipled. At the beginning I was encouraged to use study tools like Scripture Union helps and “every day with Jesus” etc. It was like drinking milk, but soon I got fed up with the milk and wanted to study the Bible directly. The “helps” were good in only one way. They helped me to learn how to ask the right questions when reading through the scriptures “what? how? who? when? which? where? why? etc and then how to use a concordance in comparing scripture with scripture. I wanted to learn from God direct rather than listen to the opinions/interpretations of others second hand.

    In the early days of my Christian walk, it was quite difficult because much of what I was reading did not make sense to me because I wasn’t yet familiar with the teachings of the WHOLE bible. This is where ministry in the body is vital. Of course, many will give a false explanation. This is where the ministry of the Holy Spirit is even more vital. Sometimes the explanations will be spot on. The Holy Spirit will help you to recognise this PROVIDED you are a Berean and go back to the Scriptures to test it out, but by using your concordance to check scripture against scripture

    Although I spent much time in the Word, as a babe, I tended to trust my teachers too highly, like a baby trusts its parents. It is only natural to do that. But, as I grew in my faith and in the knowledge of the Word, I started to see things which contradicted the teachings I was receiving. I kept on having to revise and re revise my theology by undoing much of what I was learning as/when scripture showed it to be in error.

    In conclusion: teachers are good provided they stimulate you to study the scriptures properly for yourselves, but if they cause you to develop dependence on them then they become a problem.

    I wrote an article on this which you may find helpful:

    [removed]

  • Miguel Hayworth

    To Marian and all

    Sorry I have not responded sooner

    To Marian I wish you had contacted me as you had given asumptions, 1, I am not in legue with Roger as he has stoped his contact with me on my investigation of Missler through Ron Matson,

    2, I categorically stated that I fully intend to expose Missler the point being in the UK their is lots going on in terms of the ecumenical movement through More than Gold.

    3, I will re-ashure people that Williams articles will be published on the first Plumbline site the problem is I am an idevidual and can only do so much (this is not an avasive excuse)

    reaching4truth I believe Roger has loose connections to K.House because of Matson, Matson should be ejected from UTT untill he expresses strongly calling Missler to Repentace.

    Regaurdless of what I think I simply posted what e-mails I had recieved, I do not thing this protects any excuses concerning missler.

    The points that I will be covering on missler is along with a backlog of the following heretics also, the work on david wilkerson is almost finished I am working on Missler next so forgive me for not working at lightning speed.

    William Suanders knows my sitiation as I have been in contact with him over skpe.

    my issue with missler goes back to Saturday, 3 January 2009

    This is one of the e-mails I had had shows 2 things Missler is an apostate and K. House is a buisness or Missler is Biblically Ignorant Please read below

    Missler’s assistant said

    “I had opportunity to discuss this at length with Chuck this afternoon. I
    purposely did not prompt him but sought his perspective and decisions on
    these issues. His response was “I would preach Christ and Him crucified at
    the gates of Hell.” He actually brought up Paul also. He said to thank you
    for your concern but the opportunity to minister outweighed the risk and
    that he fully intends to speak whatever God wants him to say.

    (my commnent) This is exactly what Ray Comfort said.

    This tells me he has not really thought about if it is pleasing to God but to compromise, isnt this what solomon did in the Bible when God instructed him not to go after other gods, yet solomon compromosed, was involved in child sacrificies, burned incence to the gods of eygpt.

    Yet Solomon did a little compromise here and their, some times we all need to be reminded not to make the same mistake, like Chuck is doing.

    Stephen warns in acts 7:43.

    “Yea, you took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which you made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.”

    Acts 7:43

    As you fully aware Wendy and Rory Alec has done nothing more then worship false gods, especially with Islam http://www.acctv.com.au/articledetail.asp?id=1281 thats the problem they go into the middle east and come back with the Quran, just like what Heretic and Apostate Robert Schullor Part 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkb2GOyoOB4&feature=channel_page Part 2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ikQoTp7JPmE&feature=channel_page.

    In a video Rory Alec promoted trasubstanciation that is deep rooted in babylonian Mystersism this should be enough to keep away and especially over their association with Todd Bentley, they have already made bad press, I would suggest that Chuck comes out or he will also have made a bad name for himself amongst the decernment minsitries out their they would not give it a second thought.

    Missler’s assistant said,

    “Your concerns won’t go for nothing. Because of your perspective, we will
    take our participation much more seriously than usual.”

    (my commnent) Why is it that I picked up on it, and I did not even know that Jackie had prior knowlege to this, surely if the Lord has shown this to two diffrent people, who have not been in communication with each other, then this needs to be taken into serious thought I came across it because (FYI Only) I had been informed that Todd Bentley is coming back and will be based in the UK with Rick Joyner.

    Missler’s assistant said,

    “This sounds like one of those events that you must be focused 24/7. If you know
    Chuck at all, you know that doctrinally there is nothing you would disagree with.
    If you must criticize us for our different perspective please be careful to not
    contradict what you know about us. Division in the body can be a victory for
    the enemy. Certainly there are doctrinal issues that should divide.”

    (my commnent) Their are Doctrinal Issues with the Alec’s we should seperate ourselves from, Chuck is dissobeying what God says in Ephesians 5:11 why have fellowship with them, shake hands with the enimy and as far as to have a contract with them, this is like slapping God in the face and shuning his word even though Jakie warned Chuck, this gives me no doubt in my mind the direction that Chuck has gone with this is not to be taken to lightly, but with extream decernment and caution.

    Missler’s assistant said,

    “I don’t believe this is one of them. Pray for us that we may see things the way God
    wants them to be seen. I trust you will do what God wants you to do also.”

    (my commnent) The Scriptures also say
    Matthew 24:24 “For false Christs and (A)false prophets will arise and will show great (B)signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even (C)the elect.
    It is more than Just being careful, we should not even go their.

  • Miguel Hayworth

    reaching4truth wrote:

    And Miguel, certainly you are not so naive… You said:
    Ron Matson has confermed that both Roger and Ron has said that Roger has no association with Missler directly, but I believe that Roger does associate with K.House as its european person is supportive of Roger.
    You’re gonna let Roger get away with that? That’s one of the oldest tricks in the book.
    Look, if Roger has anything at all to do with anything related to Missler — especially one of Missler’s branches — I don’t care WHAT he says about his relationship to Missler; it’s a lie! These guys talk out of both sides of their mouth. It’s disingenuous — and a very old trick.
    Don’t wanna be associated with someone? Don’t have anything to do with any aspect of their “ministry”.
    It’s that simple.

    The fact is: I havent, Roger will not speak to me further on this. I got sidelined.

  • The latest article on Joetta Smith (Mama Jo) was posted yesterday –

  • Burning Lamp

    The Great Commission has two components:

    1. Share the Gospel to reach the lost.
    2. Disciple new believers.

    Sadly, the grounding and mentoring of new believers in the faith is so often neglected, leaving them vulnerable to false teaching and wolves.

    So many new believers are not even given the essential milk to help them develop properly and they never get to the meat. New believers need to be nurtured and cared for until they are grounded. We take more care with plants and animals than we do with tender new believers!

    If the Word of God is not rightly divided, one can fall into false doctrine. The average person will not take it upon themselves to study Greek, Hebrew, context and search out the treasures of the Word. There are many verses that need to be explained or they are misinterpreted. This is where a TRUSTED commentary can be helpful as a tool.

    The Word has been twisted like a pretzel, taken out of context and truth mixed with error so craftily that the potential to be confused is huge.

    That could all be avoided if the discipling process was carried out properly as our Lord intended. But that takes time and committment and patience, virtues lacking in most quarters of the Church. More times than not people are given the salvation message and hope God does the rest. As a result we have a confused mess, a Church that is very wide and shallow.

    How does this relate to the current topic? If people were taught the truth and how to discern these false teachers would not have the following they enjoy. But it is what it is.

    Today even many (Deborah is an exception) who are called “watchers” don’t seem to care about sound doctrine. Many watchers are themselves confused even about the basic doctrines of the faith.

    Some say that Christ only died for certain ones and that everyone’s eternal destiny is predetermined. Others have abandoned the Blessed Hope and are saying the Church will go through the Great Tribulation. Some don’t think eschatology is important and have the “pan” approach – it will all pan out. Others expose false teachers but put their readers back under the law, that they are in fear of losing their salvation. This is like the pot calling the kettle black!

    Has the apostasy reached critical mass? I don’t see how it could get much worse – but then I’ve said that before…………….

  • John Chingford

    Hi Burning Lamp

    I agree with what you have said.

    For me (when I was a babe in Christ) it was a good thing that no-one sought to disciple me nor show patience in answering my questions. It meant that I HAD to throw myself totally on the Lord alone. Being so zealous for the Lord meant that I was really keen to find the answers by intense bible study myself. Maybe, if I had been spoon fed it may not have helped me so much.

    I believe a part of the discipleship process is to teach disciples how to feed themselves, how to spend time with God, how to witness etc.

  • Colin Ford

    BL,

    You brought up the subject of the ‘Great Commission’; Matthew 28.18-19.

    Pre-tribulation rapture teachers will tell us that much in Matthew’s Gospel (and in parts of Mark,Luke and John) is ‘ONLY for the Jews’ and ‘Not for the Church’.
    (Rightly dividing?) —– [DTW note: No seriously! What nonsense is that? Where do you get that from? Why are you not letting the Holy Spirit be your guide instead of silly people telling silly stories?]

    As a believer in the biblical post tribulation rapture, the bible clearly teaches that the Church and Israel (Gentiles and Jews) have the SAME destiny; Ephesians 2.14-16, read the whole chapter. —– [DTW NOTE: YES they have the same destiny, both Gentile and Jews when born again are both, new creatures, now CHILDREN OF GOD – but that does not stop God from turning his focus back to Israel during the Tribulation – They are HIS Chosen people, (Romans 11) He made a promise to them that he would not abandon them and He will not break that promise! – by the time of the tribulation, most of the Gentile world is attacking Israel as the Gentiles have RETURNED back to their pagan ways. Revelation 11:2; “But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months“.] and Luke 21:24; “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” < --> Romans 11:25 The Mystery of Israels Salvation – “25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    But, going back to the Great Commission, is this commandment for the believing Church, or unbelieving Jews? (Would they listen?).

    The Great Commission is our blessed Lord’s commandment to the Church to preach the gospel to when? To the end of the age, or until seven years before the end of the age?(Pre-trib,secret rapture).Which will you teach the ‘new believer’? —– [DTW note: the gospel will be preached till the end of the age, that is why God SEALS 144,000 JEWS with power to do the preaching. Plus the 2 witnesses! Hardly anyone will survive the tribulation, only those who are commissioned by God are SEALED to do the job – Revelation 6:17 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand? If you think you are going to go through the tribulation and preach the gospel you have another surprise coming.“]

    The Church was in existence before Pentecost, read Matthew 16.18 and 18.17. This was His little Jewish flock.

    Our ‘Blessed hope'(Titus 2.13)will come for His Church after the tribulation (Matthew 24.29-31, which is the same coming as 1 Thessalonians 4.16 and 1 Corinthians 15.52, Revelation 11.15).

    —– [DTW note: Luke21:36 Keep awake then and watch at all times [be discreet, attentive, and ready], praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things [taken together] that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.]

    I have discussed at some length with you before on this most important of subjects. Can anything come close to the second advent? This will be the GREATEST crisis in human history!

    —– [DTW note: You seem to want to discuss this Pre-trib thing, but you are doing in UNDER THE WRONG TOPIC!]

  • Burning Lamp

    Holy cow Colin – you make even the Great Commission controversial and a springboard for your skewed view of eschatology. I realize I alluded to it in my comments but didn’t expect it to hijack this thread. Debs, maybe there is a need to address this again as I have noticed so many people look to as discerners are telling the confused sheep they will go through the GT.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    >> Debs, maybe there is a need to address this again as I have noticed so many people look to as discerners are telling the confused sheep they will go through the GT.

    Yip it has crossed my mind… EVERYONE from the Pope to Colin believes in a Post-Trib Rapture and only a handful (like in the days of Noah) are looking for God to remove HIS faithful FROM HIS WRATH upon this earth.

    As we say here in SA… “eish”

  • Burning Lamp

    John, you are so right. One of the important aspects of discipling is to direct the new convert to the Lord and not to depend upon the one who is doing the discipling. There may be a need for a “weaning” process because that can happen.

    When the Gospel has been presented and a new babe in Christ is born, they should be treated with as much care as any newborn. It is the responsible thing to do and our Lord commanded it for a reason!

    But our Lord knows each situation. For instance many people receive the Lord through means other than the local church or an individual person where there is no one to disciple them.

    In your case John praise the Lord He knew you would be one of the rare ones who would take the initiative to search out the scriptures.

    In my own case I never had anyone to disciple me and never have had. It is a missing component that left me in ignorance for many years and took me down some strange paths and a lot of pain. But I am thankful that the Lord saved me and as He promised, has never forsaken me. Maybe because of what I missed it has caused me to realize the importance of it and the appalling lack of it.

  • There is a New Post on Ephesians 5:11 Blog on the Martin Erdmann/Chuck Missler saga.

    Martin Erdmann spoke at the anti-Chuck Missler “Quantum Mysticism Conference” just 4 days ago even though Martin Erdmann is listed as a Koinonia Institute Instructor and just 4 days ago is listed as a Koinonia House New Zealand Conference Speaker.

    Ephesians 5:11 Blog broke the original article in late May which forced Martin Erdmann to make a public statement on May 30th that he was NOT a Koinonia Institute Instructor even though Martin Erdmann had Koinonia House Inc. produce Erdmann’s DVD “More Than Human”.

    Ephesians 5:11 Blog believes Missler/Erdmann are doing the “Hegelian Dialectic Illuminati Dance” –

    Thesis (Missler) + Anti-thesis (Erdmann) = Synthesis (controlling both sides)

    http://www.ephesians511blog.blogspot.com

  • Colin Ford

    [deleted by DTW – sorry Colin, I am not in the mood to discuss YOUR FALSE DOCTRINE. You have the audacity to claim I am preaching false doctrine by preaching that Jesus will return for His Bride before the trib, yet you are a CALVINIST (doctrine of demons) and you adhere to RCC post-trib eschatology. Buh! What a joke.]

  • Here is the First of my series of articles based on exposing Missler

    For those who are interested.

    This looks at Chuck Missler as a featured writer on Brannon Howse’s Worldview Times, Brannon Howse is an ecumeninist and as compromise as is Missler.

    I will also be publishing Willaim’s archive on this section.

  • Andrea - News4TheMasses

    I have read the article posted by FirstPlumbline and wrote my own in response, it’s entitled, “Unsound Doctrine” and can be found at my site. Since I don’t link bomb for those who are interested you can google me.

  • My Responce to News 4 the Masses Blog article:

    You should have contacted me first before you have gone to the trouble of publishing an article to get accurate information

    I believe it is good that you are watching and checking me out as I encourage every one to do, as this helps me also, as a practice in first Plumbline we always try to contact individuals or concerned parties before we publish articles and where we are wrong we make corrections, you also need to place a check on your self in this area as it is always better to contact individuals and for me if I did not respond to your e-mail by all means write me off.

    But this has not been the case as you have not made an attempt to contact me

    If you read on the links page

    It’s very important that you clearly understand that the inclusion of any link from anywhere within the First Plumbline Apologetics web site does not necessarily imply our endorsement of that ministry, resource, or organization featured regarding anything that it does or teaches. The only endorsement that is worthwhile is that which is in alignment with biblical truth. It’s our position that we can agree or disagree with you, you can agree or disagree with us, but only so far as it agrees or disagrees with God’s Word.

    Whilst recognizing the good fruit from these linked sites, —->we cannot vouch for their every belief. As with all things in this world, the onus is upon you to check out each site and to exercise spiritual discretion,If you spot any link within this links page that is ecumenical, anti-Israel or in error please don’t hesitate to let us know…<—————-

    This article on your blog gives the impression that I promote "Calvinism (Ray Comfort, John MacArthur, Jerry Vines)," defently not Ray Comfort is one big compromiser who through his distribution website promotes Joni Erikson Tada though it is tragic what happened to her she is an ecumenist amongst other heretics listed, Ray has participation also with those who promote and participate with Kenneth Copeland the read of my expose of Comfort can be found here I am very annoyed with Ray he did not answer my e-mails concerning his WOF friends, John MacArthur, he is not promoted by me the major problem is he preaching Lordship Salvation, this is legalism, I view as a erroneous teaching that teaches you can be judge, jury and executioner over someones salvation but I don't promote these Calvinists, Jerry Vines I don't believe I have come across him to my knowledge or recollection, I am not a Calvinist their are many who are from the UPC United Protestant Council organisation who have spoken out against me both in private and in public and they even had a public meeting about me without me being present because "I am not a Calvinist" so much for their friends who are so called Christians and some of them are Orange Order, Purple and Black Lodge members one of these is Malcolm Williamson, the person in Northern Ireland since the indecent with David Carson chairman for the UPC has spread nasty false roomers about me he has ordered all UPC members to keep away from me, I am defiantly not a favorite of theirs 1) because definitely I am not a Calvinist 2) I am not a KJV onlyist as I use bibles published earlier then the KJV 1611.

    As for me I will be forthright, honest and transparent with you I can speak to moderates but I cannot stand hard line Calvinism for its self-righteous attitude and I definitely cannot stand hyper-Calvinism, in addition to this I had been invited to write one article on the Salvation Army and freemasonry for the English Churchman newspaper just on this issue.

    As far as I am aware the calvinists are not happy that I published my brothers article refuting the calvinist stance on predestination, and so I am labeled an Armenian, even though I cannot accept the 5 points of Armenianism as I cannot accept the 5 points of Calvinism that I find creates and elitist club and also I reject the sinners prayer, so because of this the Arminians call me a Calvinist this is an insult to Calvinists as they hate me, I definitely see palagian teaching a heresy but i am outside all 3 camps.

    and Latter Rain (Chuck Missler)

    Chuck Missler is a dominionist compromiser I had written my first article yesterday exposing him the man is off the wall and promoting heretical and gnostic teachings for example pushing the Book of Enoch I believe I posted my weblink on your blogsite.

    as for Kent Hodind who is in Prison since January 2007 and serving a ten-year prison sentence after being convicted of 58 federal counts, including 12 tax offenses, one count of obstructing federal agents, and 45 counts of structuring cash transactions

    Hovind is a KJV onlyist I don't really have dealings with him nor do I promote him anywhere on the website.

    then Arnold Fruchenbaum, I have exposed as an ecumenist and a compromiser long story in itself on this one I cannot accept how he can make a binding covenant that was created by the WCC and fully justify his possition with the Luasanne Movement.

    Jacob Prasch, I have removed my audio archive with him on it….

    As for ACT featured on that website, ACT is just a list it is not an organisation but the people who are on it are independent from each other most of them will not speak to me and I am mainly on the outside, I do not have any participation or involvement with what the others do who are listed the only person to my knowledge who contacts me is James Sandquest who I was introduced to by William Sanders from Ephesians 5:11 blog, I solely remain independent from those who are listed within ACT we have had our major rows and disputes this is still unresolved, their is allot of issues going on and I cannot speak for ACT as the person who runs that is Sandy Simpson and you would need to speak with him, I wish Mijadedios you had contacted me as I have stipulated If you spot any link within this links page that is ecumenical, anti-Israel or in error please don't hesitate to let us know..

    I have removed sound doctrine from the links page as I cannot accept their promotion of Arnold Fruct as Dave is one of his greatest fans I have warned them in the past but they refused to accept the evidence I have shown them.
    For a long time I have had no contact with Don but you will not find me on there website as they do not promote me.

    This is why you should have contacted me and because you have not attempted to contact me and in saying this I feel you have not been open with me, as I would have given you an honest response also my name is Miguel not Michael why change my name in the writing and not in the image of the sound doctrine screen shot I find this inconsistent as some may do here, if you or anyone wants to contact me about the ACT issue I will also respond, I am not the type of person to ignore or evade these issues.

    For this reason I have removed the ACT Link and those who you have mentioned, I have removed the audio's of Jacob and Bill Randles

    i am sorry if posted quotations from you to expose missler offends you and if you wish I will remove that reference to you if you wish, the issue is not about as you rightly pointed out endorsing anyone nor should you the only person we should be promoting is Jesus Christ and the Bible itself.

    Please I would ask if you can correct this article.

    Miguel

  • My Responce to News 4 the Masses Blog Article:

    Andrea you did not post my response nor have you contacted me first before you have gone to the trouble of publishing an article to get accurate information

    I believe it is good that you are watching and checking me out as I encourage every one to do, as this helps me also, as a practice in first Plumbline we always try to contact individuals or concerned parties before we publish articles and where we are wrong we make corrections, you also need to place a check on your self in this area as it is always better to contact individuals and for me if I did not respond to your e-mail by all means write me off.

    But this has not been the case as you have not made an attempt to contact me

    If you read on the links page

    It’s very important that you clearly understand that the inclusion of any link from anywhere within the First Plumbline Apologetics web site does not necessarily imply our endorsement of that ministry, resource, or organization featured regarding anything that it does or teaches. The only endorsement that is worthwhile is that which is in alignment with biblical truth. It’s our position that we can agree or disagree with you, you can agree or disagree with us, but only so far as it agrees or disagrees with God’s Word.

    Whilst recognizing the good fruit from these linked sites, —->we cannot vouch for their every belief. As with all things in this world, the onus is upon you to check out each site and to exercise spiritual discretion,If you spot any link within this links page that is ecumenical, anti-Israel or in error please don’t hesitate to let us know…<—————-

    This article on your blog gives the impression that I promote "Calvinism (Ray Comfort, John MacArthur, Jerry Vines)," defently not Ray Comfort is one big compromiser who through his distribution website promotes Joni Erikson Tada though it is tragic what happened to her she is an ecumenist amongst other heretics listed, Ray has participation also with those who promote and participate with Kenneth Copeland the read of my expose of Comfort can be found here I am very annoyed with Ray he did not answer my e-mails concerning his WOF friends, John MacArthur, he is not promoted by me the major problem is he preaching Lordship Salvation, this is legalism, I view as a erroneous teaching that teaches you can be judge, jury and executioner over someones salvation but I don't promote these Calvinists, Jerry Vines I don't believe I have come across him to my knowledge or recollection, I am not a Calvinist their are many who are from the UPC United Protestant Council organisation who have spoken out against me both in private and in public and they even had a public meeting about me without me being present because "I am not a Calvinist" so much for their friends who are so called Christians and some of them are Orange Order, Purple and Black Lodge members one of these is Malcolm Williamson, the person in Northern Ireland since the indecent with David Carson chairman for the UPC has spread nasty false roomers about me he has ordered all UPC members to keep away from me, I am defiantly not a favorite of theirs 1) because definitely I am not a Calvinist 2) I am not a KJV onlyist as I use bibles published earlier then the KJV 1611.

    As for me I will be forthright, honest and transparent with you I can speak to moderates but I cannot stand hard line Calvinism for its self-righteous attitude and I definitely cannot stand hyper-Calvinism, in addition to this I had been invited to write one article on the Salvation Army and freemasonry for the English Churchman newspaper just on this issue.

    As far as I am aware the calvinists are not happy that I published my brothers article refuting the calvinist stance on predestination, and so I am labeled an Armenian, even though I cannot accept the 5 points of Armenianism as I cannot accept the 5 points of Calvinism that I find creates and elitist club and also I reject the sinners prayer, so because of this the Arminians call me a Calvinist this is an insult to Calvinists as they hate me, I definitely see palagian teaching a heresy but i am outside all 3 camps.

    and Latter Rain (Chuck Missler)

    Chuck Missler is a dominionist compromiser I had written my first article yesterday exposing him the man is off the wall and promoting heretical and gnostic teachings for example pushing the Book of Enoch I believe I posted my weblink on your blogsite.

    as for Kent Hodind who is in Prison since January 2007 and serving a ten-year prison sentence after being convicted of 58 federal counts, including 12 tax offenses, one count of obstructing federal agents, and 45 counts of structuring cash transactions

    Hovind is a KJV onlyist I don't really have dealings with him nor do I promote him anywhere on the website.

    then Arnold Fruchenbaum, I have exposed as an ecumenist and a compromiser long story in itself on this one I cannot accept how he can make a binding covenant that was created by the WCC and fully justify his possition with the Luasanne Movement.

    Jacob Prasch, I have removed my audio archive with him on it….

    As for ACT featured on that website, ACT is just a list it is not an organisation but the people who are on it are independent from each other most of them will not speak to me and I am mainly on the outside, I do not have any participation or involvement with what the others do who are listed the only person to my knowledge who contacts me is James Sandquest who I was introduced to by William Sanders from Ephesians 5:11 blog, I solely remain independent from those who are listed within ACT we have had our major rows and disputes this is still unresolved, their is allot of issues going on and I cannot speak for ACT as the person who runs that is Sandy Simpson and you would need to speak with him, I wish Mijadedios you had contacted me as I have stipulated If you spot any link within this links page that is ecumenical, anti-Israel or in error please don't hesitate to let us know..

    I have removed sound doctrine from the links page as I cannot accept their promotion of Arnold Fruct as Dave is one of his greatest fans I have warned them in the past but they refused to accept the evidence I have shown them.
    For a long time I have had no contact with Don but you will not find me on there website as they do not promote me.

    This is why you should have contacted me and because you have not attempted to contact me and in saying this I feel you have not been open with me, as I would have given you an honest response also my name is Miguel not Michael why change my name in the writing and not in the image of the sound doctrine screen shot I find this inconsistent as some may do here, if you or anyone wants to contact me about the ACT issue I will also respond, I am not the type of person to ignore or evade these issues.

    For this reason I have removed the ACT Link and those who you have mentioned, I have removed the audio's of Jacob and Bill Randles

    i am sorry if posted quotations from you to expose missler offends you and if you wish I will remove that reference to you if you wish, the issue is not about as you rightly pointed out endorsing anyone nor should you the only person we should be promoting is Jesus Christ and the Bible itself.

    Please I would ask if you can correct this article.

    Miguel

  • I just want to clarify something Miguel said.

    Miguel said above –

    “the only person to my knowledge who contacts me is James Sandquest who I was introduced to by William Sanders from Ephesians 5:11 blog”

    It was James Sundquist who contacted Miguel and myself at the same exact time in the same email string. I don’t know James Sundquist and had never received anything from James Sundquist prior to that email in August 2011.

    So I didn’t introduce James Sundquist to anybody, James Sundquist introduced himself through an email to Lighthouse Trails, Roger Oakland, and Miguel. That email was forwarded to me because I was the one who wrote the Jerry Boykin article for Roger Oakland that Miguel made a video about.

    Just wanted to clarify that.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Ooookieeee Dokieeee :)

  • thanks for the clarification William.

    I was under the impression because of a contact I had received form you referred from the video by Roger caught attention of, this possibly for the reason we were introduced this is possibly why i had that impression, it was like you explained “at the same exact time in the same email string.” then we got in contact.

    2011 is a while back so I could only state our encounter through memory.

    God Bless

    Miguel

  • Marion

    Miguel…
    Since you addressed me in the above response, I assume you are expecting an apology from me for maligning you. You feel I should have contacted you personally. I would not choose to do so; just like any of the other “discernment” sites, a trip to your website, communicates quite enough; what is there, as well as what is missing.
    ———————————————————————————-
    You stated…3, I will re-ashure people that Williams articles will be published on the first Plumbline site the problem is I am an idevidual and can only do so much (this is not an avasive excuse)
    reaching4truth I believe Roger has loose connections to K.House because of Matson, Matson should be ejected from UTT untill he expresses strongly calling Missler to Repentace.
    Regaurdless of what I think I simply posted what e-mails I had recieved, I do not thing this protects any excuses concerning missler.
    The points that I will be covering on missler is along with a backlog of the following heretics also, the work on david wilkerson is almost finished I am working on Missler next so forgive me for not working at lightning speed.
    William Suanders knows my sitiation as I have been in contact with him over skpe.
    my issue with missler goes back to Saturday, 3 January 2009
    ——————————————————————————

    You indicated that you don’t have time, and are only one individual…yet, in the time it took you to send that lengthy response, all it takes to post someone’s articles is a simple “copy and paste”…surely in the past 7 months (????????)…

    The above phrase… “forgive me for not working at lightning speed.” seems a sarcastic diversion to cast emotion and false judgment towards those who simply have asked…what’s taking so long?…and to move the readers toward compassion for you, “effectively” distracting them from the legitimate questions that have been put forth, and still remain unanswered, making us appear harsh and demanding…(????)

    By your own account you also indicate your issue with missler goes back to Jan. 3, 2009….soooooo…

    the problem with time is??????????? I believe in your words that it is (“an avasive excuse) from #3 above.

    IF I were in the “discernment ministry” and came across William’s articles, and I had my own issues with Missler, et al, since Jan. 2009…I don’t care what I was involved in or working on, I would immediately drop it and be all over this….but then again, that’s me. Oh, and by the way, when I came across all of this, that is exactly what I did! Now, I’m not saying all others need to live their lives as I choose, and if they don’t they are condemned…I’m just asking some questions of those in “discernment.” This Chuck Missler thing is the unmasking of a MAJOR wolf in sheep’s clothing…soooooo??????????? WHY THE SILENCE????? WHY THE DELAY?????…are the “discernment” folks just hoping this will all just “go away?” Apparently…because it’s the “little people” who are blowing the trumpets!! (And yes, I did read your post…my comment was drafted before you posted…I decided to go with it anyway, and just add to, to include the fact that you FINALLY did something…and after all that time, not so impressive)

    I’m sorry Miguel…I am not buying what you’re selling…if the Lord should reveal to me that I am wrong, so be it…but when I look at you…I see the “caution flag” a wavin’.

    The above “list” that you are working on…it’s all the same old, same old…they’ve been done and re-done…especially the charismatics of whom we could “all agree”??????

    Of notice is who is not on the list, and yet ought to be…for those of us who research…the evidence is in plain site…

    OH…and BTW…you have disdain for for “ecumenists” and “compromisers”? and Joni Erikson is one of them? (no kidding)….that’s good…very good…
    SOOOOOOOO…the reason folks can buy her book through your site is????????? (copy and pasted – I’m computer illiterate and can’t do screen shots…oh well…hurry to site and look at “resources” before that’s cleaned up too!)

    ———————————————————————–
    Books For Sale

    The Deception of “Love Evangelism”
    by Miguel Hayworth

    Download £4.00 (UK)
    Paperback book £6.95 (UK)

    Click on the cover art to preview the book

    Evangelism and Church Practice have changed dramatically over the decades. Christians around the UK have worked hard at trying new methods of evangelism and new forms of expression in order to attract the British people back to church. The evidence has shown that rather then revival the UK has witnessed a greater falling away! Why?

    Preview the book at Google books

    When God Weeps : Why Our Sufferings Matter to the Almighty by Joni Eareckson, 1999

    Price From: $0.01 (Amazon USA)
    Price From:£0.39 (Amazon UK)

    Forever puts to rest the nonsense of the Word-Faith movement.(18)

    ——————————————————————————

    You see, you can “explain away”…and “oh my goodness, I didn’t realize, but since you told me…and came to me personally…I’ve removed ‘stuff’ proving I’m really OK and one of the good guys” (REALLY? had you no discernment before folks contacted you???…REALLY???…it’s just a way to “fix” the incriminating evidence that reveals who you are…to “cover your tracks.”

    AND THERE’S MORE…SO MUCH MORE, BUT I’VE SPENT ENOUGH TIME WITH YOU AND YOUR SITE, AND I’M DONE.

    Some people really are smart enough to see through your maneuverings, and the truth is, no matter how hard you’ve tried to “clean it up” and “cover your tracks”…you really can’t separate yourself from “the pack.”

  • Marion

    PS…at the very least, Miguel – you are terribly deceived…
    at the worst…??????

    In the end, only God knows…but it is time to examine your life and what exactly is going on there!

    “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” (Jer. 17:9-10)

    the Lord…He is gracious!

  • Marion their is no disagreement over Missler as for my books I do not propheteer from them, plus they can be downloaded for free online

    and the other http://issuu.com/migl22/docs/hope_08_a_hidden

    to accuse me of marketing FPA is fictitious and false, nor have I asked anyone on here to buy anything from me..

    Read into what you like Marion about me, but as i had already explained the missler articles from williams blog will go online soon.

    FPA is not to everyone’s liking you can do as you please such as defamation of caractor, for example you could expose me, could say say im going to burn in hell, what ever names you want to give me you do what you like.

    Missler is whom I am working to expose, I have stated to Roger that in my research of missler his name will not be omitted from missler’s expose..

    Now I have said my peace and I will move on from this discussion.

  • Forgot to mention you will have to also level your criticism against Mike Oppenheimer who is close friends with Sandy, Mike is also an ACT Member *Let us reason ministries

  • To those parties that are interested I have made alterations to the Book list by removing several titles and updating the price details of Deception of Love Evangelism. I shall endeavour to be more careful as to the updating of the site. I appreciate people contacting me directly concerning anything contained on the site. In fact there a disclaimer to this effect because, as human beings, we are all infallible.

    As you will note it is now available as a free to download e-book and the price direct from the publisher has substantially been reduced. The price of this book is charged by the publisher Lulu, FPA has no control over this. I do not make any money from this book. Lulu simply prints copies of their publications when ordered. The price is what they charge for each copy.

    Any of you budding writers out there can check out Lulu and you can have your books published also for free. If you want to earn money from publishing your books you can add whatever extra to the publishers price, if you want to make the book available at cost you can do this. You have the option of offering the book free of charge as an download.

    All publications listed are not sold by FPA and the links are to either the publisher’s own site or Amazon.

    I do try to contact people and ministries about concerns I have over some of the things they do or state. I have done this with Chuck Smith, CC, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Chuck Missler, Ray Comfort and others. Most of these people have simply dismissed my points or have simply chosen to ignore. I take time before going ahead with publishing in order to give people the time to respond. I also make sure that I have documented evidence to back up any points I have made. Then, and only then, do I go ahead and publish. I believe that this is the correct way to proceed. But, as I already said, none of us are infallible and we do make mistakes.

    Things change so quickly and it is often difficult to keep up with the changes. People that were once trusted eventually succumbed to temptations, either sexual, financial and/or popularity. I believe that Comfort and Missler’s compromises with TBN are part of their desire to reach as wide an audience as possible.

    Thankfully I am not one who receives invitations to speak as are some, and (as far as I am aware) the two books I have had published have not made the best seller lists.

    Miguel

  • jim olson

    We have benefited greatly from the Misslers teachings over the years.

    We love them.

    Jim and Anna

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    jim olson

    >> We have benefited greatly from the Misslers teachings over the years.

    Yes they are Missler’s teachings NOT Jesus’ teachings as you so stated.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    I believe there are many people involved in these ‘lists’ that are innocent and just as the church as been compromised, so the ‘Discernment Ministries’ have been compromised as well. We can’t call everyone evil now because they belong to this ACT list. Goodness. One would need much better proof other than just being on a list before I said anything.

  • Zelda

    Miguel Hayworth wrote:

    In fact there a disclaimer to this effect because, as human beings, we are all infallible.

    Only the pope claims to be infallible……..the rest of us are just mere ” fallible” human beings……..(maybe you should correct your sentence)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    lol, me thinks that was a bad typo ;)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    I have received your email, I have sent you stax of emails, I dunno why you are not getting them grrrr. Email me another email address?

  • Marion

    Debs…unfortunately, while researching persons, “ministries”, error, roots, fruits… one will come upon the same names, in various places…over and over again…funny how that happens…funny how they just also “happen” to show up on the ACT recommended speaker list (not all of them, but many)…it may or may not be an organization, with independents, but…??? I used to think that perhaps “those” people don’t know what they’ve fallen into, but after contacting several personally and directly, and either being ignored, or being led along for a while, until I put the pieces together when I couldn’t make sense of what I was hearing/seeing (as in the Hoggard example)…I realized…NO ONE innocently just falls into the “wolf pack.” They know. And so, no need to contact…just watch and beware.

    About Miguel…saying… “To those parties that are interested I have made alterations to the Book list by removing several titles and …”

    of course you have, I did see that coming…doesn’t that make you seem so credible…because after all, Joni Erickson, ecumenist/compromiser – in your words – was OK on your book list…until someone said something…again…REALLY???….and you are a “discernment/apologetics” “ministry”??…interesting

    Yes, we are all infallible, but as one who has set himself up as a “watchman”…really?…were you napping?…that one is glaring obvious. Again I’m not buying anything the “discernment” “ministries” are selling. (and selling doesn’t just mean their “materials”…I mean “selling” themselves as something they are not…”watchmen”)

  • Miguel

    Zelda you are correct we are falible not infalible thanks for the comment just a bad typo.

  • Miguel

    I forgot to add Finite also :)

  • Miguel

    I thought I would also include this since andrea removed my responce. N4TM is listed through an ACT website yet she did not make a big deal of it

    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/churchgrowth.html

    (169) Woe by Andrea Ahnonemous, News 4 The Masses, August 25, 2009
    The Shift has Begun. The time for secrets and whispered alliances has become publicly known. The object of grievance for many who love Calvary Chapel and all that it once stood for has been affirmed. For all those who were called “Head Hunters, Heresy Sniffers, Contentious, and slanderers” they may now have some level of confirmation that their discernment wasn’t wrong, but a true child of God who has the “gift” of discernment takes no pleasure in seeing what was once ‘the warning’ come to pass. Many people who are in the camp that believe Rick Warren is doing a work of God think that all of us are simply fanatic and fearful to ‘change.’ No. I accept Change. What I do not accept is heresy, lies, and false teachers. I will start in the order of the men that are in the picture above.

    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newsletter20090908.htm

    And why has she not asked herself about her own link with ACT ??????

  • Correction was a bad typo sorry it was fallible.

  • Here is a brand new post on Chuck Missler and his Director, Ron Matsen, who also is Roger Oakland’s UTT board Chairman –

    It’s titled “Chuck Missler: Living PROOF of the DEATH of DISCERNMENT”

  • Marion

    Nice try Miguel…REALLY??…just because Andrea’s work was used on another site, that does not constitute an “endorsement” of her; and even if they did endorse her in their links…at least that would be one “reliable” site…and CLEARLY she is not ACT “certified”…

    BUT her endorsement of them would be another issue; and obviously, she does not endorse any person, group or “ministry”…if she refers to a link or a work – it is used informationally, and not an endorsement…

    Now, however, when the identified “wolves” are all linked, quoted, and work shared amongst themselves…that is another issue…(even a wolf is able to put out some “good” information – that is how they lure and deceive the sheep).

    You and the whole ACT crew as well as ALL the phony “discernment” “ministries” have been snagged…plain and simple, and you cannot escape your “nakedness,” try as you may, and quite honestly, I am embarrassed for you. You are grasping at straws, and it would be best for you to do what all the other phony “ministries” are doing…remain SILENT (albeit their silence betrays them)…the more you talk/write, the more you are only succeeding in looking desperate and your arguments foolish.

    It is time to “cut your losses” here, and just continue to carry on your “ministry” for the many deceived who don’t read this and other sites, and won’t figure you out; or repent.

    “Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.” (Prov. 17:28)

    PS…
    BTW…Miguel is a liar as well…his comments are posted on Andrea’s site, and she has commented…check for yourselves people…

    news4themasses.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/unsound-doctrine/

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Miguel,

    Marion is correct.

    >> just because Andrea’s work was used on another site, that does not constitute an “endorsement” of her;

    There is a difference between someone using your info vs you using others into (who are CLEARLY) false teachers. However, if you find someone that is (not kosher) using your info because someone tells you or you find out by yourself, you should by biblical standards ask that person to stop using your info. If that person refuses to not remove the link or info or whatever, at least in the eyes of God you have done what is right.

    So in this case Andrea is not at fault. However because you are a ‘discernment website’ you should have used discernment when it came to posting such sites as ‘Sound Doctine’ and the book by Joni Erikson.

    But I now looking at your site, you have links to C.S. Lewis, John Stott and then Chuck Misslers Blue Letter Bible… Filled with off beat commentaries and changes verses.

    You have this statement that says “If you spot any link within this links page that is ecumenical, anti-Israel or in error please don’t hesitate to let us know…”

    BUT HOLD ON A SECOND…. You are supposed to be the WATCHMAN, not the other way around. It’s not for the people to tell you what’s right and what’s wrong, it’s for YOU TO MAKE SURE what you put on your site is correct. You are informing people as to what is correct, people are coming to your site for some reading material (and those who are confused, who are not listening to the Holy Spirit) are going to read incorrect info on your site and you are now responsible for that persons blood.

    I have been praying about what is going on here BIG TIME and things are not looking good. I am not happy with this situation. I am trying to be on your side here Miguel, but the Holy Spirit keeps waving the RED flag non stop.

  • Marion

    Hey Debs…is your comment above for Miguel?…says Martin.

    My PS belonged at the bottom of my comment no at the top!…LOL…but, that’s OK, as long as it made it! ;-)

    [EDITED by DTW – I fixed it ]

    Like I said earlier on…there SO MUCH MORE that I could have addressed on Miguel’s site. Looks like the work on Miguel we can call done…no?

  • Marion

    AND…the Joni Erickson resource remains…games…

  • I just posted the latest article on Chuck Missler that should answer many questions as to WHY Chuck Missler does unbiblical things without batting an eye, disobedience to The Word Of God.

    The title of the June 6th article is “Chuck Missler EXPOSES his own defying disobedience”

    Here is the link –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/07/chuck-missler-exposes-his-own-defying.html

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Debs…to quote Britney Spears..’oops I did it again!’…I made a comment about Chuck Missler on another thread..lol..sorry, but it was in the context of the discussion, and in my defense, I only thought to look for info on him on your site, after I had commented!

  • Myfanwy Brown

    Okayyy..so hopefully I will start to get things straight from now on! lol. Please forgive me and bear with me, as I feel like a runner who is lagging behind all the rest of you sprinters! I commented elsewhere about Chuck Missler, then I found this thread about him, and realised that I did not need to inform anyone on DTW, about his antics. So apologies to Debs and Michael Anthony for that mistake.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Myfanwy

    No worries…

    By the way you will catch up quickly :)

  • Jay

    What is the deal with Missler? I have always listened to him and learned from his lectures.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jay

    >> What is the deal with Missler? I have always listened to him and learned from his lectures.

    Did you read the article?

  • I have just posted the latest article titled “Is Chuck Missler & William Welty partnered with antichrist?” –

    http://ephesians511blog.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-chuck-missler-william-welty.html

  • Anthony

    4 September, 2012 at 6:55 PM

    Hi,

    My name is Anthony. After reading some of the posts and articles on your website about Chuck Missler and other popular “christian ministers”, I have one question that I hope I can get a few replies to, mabey its a foolish question, but here goes. If all the ministries and leaders of these ministries mentioned on this website are teaching a lot of heretical doctrine (and I believe their is a lot of that around now days, Paul said that would be the case and already was to some extent in his day), how is it that these people have such an understanding ,especially in Missler’s case, of the Bible?

    Isen’t there one particular verse in the bible, and I know others as well on the subject, that says “the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit because they are foolishness to him and spiritually discerned”. Jesus also repeatedly said “those who have eyes to see and ears to hear let them hear what the spirit says”. It is the holy spirit that allows someone to understand the word of God and if a person does not have the spirit of God or is open to the spirits leading how can they understand the bible, much less teach from it?

    I ask because I use to always read prophecy books when I was younger and was looking for God. The books I found very interesting but everytime I picked up the bible and promised myself I would read it for a while I always put it away after a few minutes because I could never understand what I read. It made no sense to me, so how can it to the teachers mentioned, if they are not genuinley saved or seeking to be saved? In other words,can the bible be understood by anyone, even so called “false teachers”?

    I also agree with one of the posts made on this site in reference to information presented about Joyce Myers. Like the person who commented and posted I do not listen to Joyce’s ministry, and I too believe plenty of heresy ,false teaching and deception abound now days, as I mentioned above. I myself look too much into these things and am quick to judge. Most times I feel right doing so because I think deception has become prevelent. The person who posted,though made a very good point I believe , and that is about not judging in anger everyone who seems to be preaching unsound doctrine. In one epistle Paul said it is a small thing to him that others were judging him because he felt he was not qualified to judge himself and if anything was unsound to rebuke and exhort in love with long suffering and not being given over to arguments. Okay mabey that was a couple of Epistles worth of scriptures, but non the less it seems like a fine line between becoming a pharisee and genuinley expressing concern about false teaching the way Jesus would.

    Love to hear from anyone on my question and comment.

    Thx and God Bless.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Anthony

    Chuck Missler for example is a brilliant man with a very high IQ, the bible speaks about wise men who are very learned but are in fact fools. This is why they can preach truth but there is a lot of error. They know enough to pass themselves off as a ‘man of god’ to the unlearned who are fooled into thinking they speak the truth and nothing but the truth.

    These men are hypocrites, a hypocrite is an ACTOR, they act the part well don’t they, because if they didn’t then Jesus would never have to warn us about these people. You see a genuine Christian preaches the truth and nothing but the truth all the time, and IF he does make an error he is humble enough to realise it and admit his wrong doing because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit in his life. These wise men do not admit they make errors, and will never publicly apologise or adjust or make amends what they believe, or who they have befriended, in fact their teaching will get worse and worse.

    >> I also agree with one of the posts made on this site in reference to information presented about Joyce Myers. Like the person who commented and posted I do not listen to Joyce’s ministry, and I too believe plenty of heresy ,false teaching and deception abound now days, as I mentioned above. I myself look too much into these things and am quick to judge.

    Oh boy…you didn’t bother to listen to the audio did you? No wonder you get caught out so easily.

  • Shell

    I would really like to be able to read your article but the site format makes it extremely difficult to do on a mobile device.The pictures and whatever else in your back ground overshadows all of your article and most of the comments.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Then read it on a laptop like a normal person :)

  • Nightmairz

    If anything your starting out phrase of scriputure tell me alot about you…your saying by quote of a scripture they dont believe and that kiddo is a lie..and you take all this energy to make this and slam people..hmmmmmm..wheres your hate comming from .twisting things to get people to follow you and your work..now thats a false prophet…youll answer 1 day.God wants people to teach his word not slam people..judge not.condemn not..better take alot of ice sounds like ya could be headed some place warm

  • Nightmairz

    And you screen what people say huh..hahahaha..o brother

  • Nightmairz

    No, not screening but testing everything you and others say in the light of God’s Words. If you don’t agree, it’s your prerogative to refute us in the light of the Word.

  • Nightmairz

    Do you prefer to be misled into all kinds of false teaching or do you rather prefer to follow Jesus (the Truth)?

  • Amy Hall

    Missler states that the Nephilim were not all killed in the flood of Noah times. But, the scriptures say they were. People, Jesus promised to send us the “Holy Spirit” who will “Lead us to ALL Truth”. If that is the promise, then believe that there is NO WAY the Holy Spirit would lead us to believe a lie. All true believers in Christ are “orthodox Bible”, and have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
    He gives us a strong “gut instinct”. All I can say is I got that “yuk” feeling when I started listening to Missler. And, then he leaves the “flock” and runs off to New Zealand. What? I think he think America, Babylon is going down and has fled. Just my take on things.

  • Amy Hall

    I wonder if the Apostles, when they were going to meet together and give speeches on prophecy sent out fliers saying, “THE MOST AWESOME PROPHECY TEACHER EVER! CONFERENCE DATES: SECURE YOUR SEAT, THEY’RE MOVING FAST! ONLY 95.00 PER TICKET!” “TRUE MAN OF GOD, THE APOSTLE PAUL, SAW JESUS ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS, COMING SOON. COCKTAIL HOUR BEGINS AT 5 P.M. , TAKE A BREAK, STAY AT THE 5 STAR MOST AWESOME HOTEL IN IDAHO! RELAX WITH FRIENDS, ASK THESE GREAT TEACHERS, QUESTION AND ANSWER STARTS AT 10 P.M. OOOPS! SOLD OUT!

    (I don’t think so.) I don’t think the Apostles behaved in this manner. )

  • SheepDog

    Hi,

    I stumbled upon this blog by doing some digging. I know it’s been a while, but there has been a new development in all of this. I know about this and many of the details as well when I stumbled upon them years ago (and am familiar with many of these commentor’s blogs too). I do enjoy many good things about LT, but there were also a few concerns. I will list them first below:
    1. Even though there is association (Roger said he considers Chuck Smith to be his pastor in a UTT newsletter and associates with the movement), LT seems to frown on the gifts being for today and the fact that we can hear from God (still small voice, etc.). That is a red flag for me.
    2. In many books and writings I have seen the recurrent theme that ‘the Jews are God’s people.’ Prophetically there is much to be said, but in a nutshell, we are not God’s people until we enter into the covenant with Jesus, and that goes for both Jews and Gentiles.
    3. In one early book about Marian apparitians, in one of the last chapters there is a reference to both Chuck Missler and Tim LaHaye. Granted, it is an old book, but still.
    4. On the News for the Masses Blog I ran into something about them too, how they expose or refrain from exposing in groups, and that Chuck Missler and Tim LaHaye run in the same wolf pack and details pertaining to exposure by LT.

    Thoughts: I think one issue could be that they sign contracts early on about collaboration between ministries and then pay the price later, which is why this should never be done.

    Well, recently Roger has ‘come out from retirement.’ The statement went that he had gone into retirement to help the orphanages because ‘he was tired of warning those who don’t want to listen,’ and something about ‘letting them have their deception.’ But now on here I read a totally different account of cancelling conferences and getting away from ‘cut throat Christianity’ as being the account given back then, so why did the story change? And, either it is right or wrong to hold these conferences, so why cancel and hide over the discovery of a fact? It appears to me to be the ‘lay low for a while’ tactic.

    So now that Roger is back in action, he advertised two conferences he will hold about the emergent church, one at Calvary Cypress and one at Hosanna Chapel in Bellflower, both in CA in early Feb (just over). He also opened up a facebook page. At the time I knew nothing of the earlier account of why he retired. I posted a positive comment of encouragement. Later, though I wasn’t able to go or listen to the conferences and know nothing of what was said, I felt an urge to post a warning on the UTT facebook page about Chuck Smith (since there is always affirmation of all things Chuck, and cover up of his elbow linking with Rick Warren in 2009 at times). I wouldn’t even have brought it up but in a recent newsletter mentioning the conferences, there was another tip of the hat to Chuck. I left a series of quotes by Chuck Smith from various books and writings where he claims that all denominations (including Catholics) are ‘one body.’ Total false ecumenism! In another book ‘distinctives,’ he goes on to promote marketing strategies for church growth and priding himself in how ‘no one really knows where Calvary stands’ on doctrine! As a believer, I want others to know exactly where I stand, and so does the body collective, if you are a Christian church and not a business! The quotes are shocking. You can google and find them also. Well, I posted them on the FB page. Truth is truth, just as all that I am saying now is, facts are facts. I’m not happy about it, I’m not gloating in gossip, but it is true and people need to know. So anyway, I checked back a couple of days later, and all the quotes were removed, even the first one! Just gone. I looked all over but nothing. Why are they hiding this stuff, like it’s some kind of cover up? If you are really warning the flock, then warn about all the dangers. Sure, there is much to warn about and you can have a specific ‘focus,’ but this is different since Chuck is still openly promoted, even after embracing Rick Warren. Why?!
    In fact, I will include the quotes below in the next comment.

  • SheepDog

    Proof that Chuck Smith Sr. is ecumenical with Catholics, that he denies that the truth of God’s Word is what unites Christians, and that he employs church growth marketing strategies (that he learned from Peter Drucker, a man he admittedly admires).

    He states, “You know the beautiful thing about being called Calvary Chapel? People don’t know where you really stand… Calvary Chapel has a sort of mystique about it. “What do these people believe?” “I don’t know, but let’s go find out.” And the whole field is ours. You want to fish in as big a pond as you can find. When you’re marketing something, you want the largest market appeal possible. So don’t chop up the market and say, “Well, we’re just going to fish in this little market here.” Keep the market broad. (pg. 49, 50)” “Calvary Chapel Distinctives.”
    “We are not a denominational church, nor are we opposed to denominations as such, only their over-emphasis of doctrinal differences that have led to the division of the body of Christ. We believe that the only true basis of Christian fellowship is His (Agape) love, which is greater than any differences we possess and without which we have no right to claim ourselves Christians” (Statement of Faith, Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa).
    Chuck Smith, founder of the Calvary Chapels, is very ecumenical. In a 1993 book he says: “We should realize that we’re all part of the Body of Christ and that there aren’t any real divisions in the Body. We’re all one. What a glorious day when we discover that God loves the Baptists! — And the Presbyterians, and the Methodists, and the Catholics. We’re all His and we all belong to Him. We see the whole Body of Christ, and we begin to strive together rather than striving against one another” (Smith, Answers for Today, p. 157).
    Chuck Smith’s ecumenism is also evident from a statement quoted in the December 1995 issue of Sojourner magazine. “Paul points out that some say, ‘I’m of Paul,’ while others say, ‘I’m of Apollos.’ He asked, ‘Isn’t that carnal?’ But what’s the difference between saying that or saying, ‘I’m a Baptist,’ ‘I’m a Presbyterian,’ ‘I’m a Methodist,’ ‘I’m a Catholic’? I have found that the more spiritual a person becomes, the less denominational he is. We should realize that we’re all part of the Body of Christ and that there aren’t any real divisions in the Body. We’re all one.”

    End quotes. So there it is, ecumenism with Catholics etc., denying that unity is around the truth of the bible, and employing marketing/business strategies from the harlot sculptor; Peter Drucker (bad news) for church growth by hiding what is stood for; the opposite of what the church should be doing!

    And then, why the silence? If I am misunderstood, I’m on fire to clear up the record, not remain silent. But that is an answer in itself. And removing the facts about Chuck Smith is another interesting move.

    Anyway, just wanted to share this for what it’s worth.

    God bless!

  • Thank you SheepDog for the valuable information you gave us.

  • Bro. Nick

    Marion – That which you wrote so well on 11 January, 2012 at 7:03 pm is so much more true now, 4 years and 4 months later.

    The lesson from all the deception that is going on that those very few who truly are Biblically “born again” believers and followers of “the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” must remember – is what ‘the weeping prophet’ wrote:
    “Thus saith the LORD;
    Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.”
    (Jeremiah 17:5 ~ KJV)

    Those very few who truly are ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ – we must ALL learn – and remember – and most seriously think about – and apply that which C.H. Spurgeon wrote over 100 years ago –
    – DISCERNMENT is not knowing the difference between right and wrong.
    – It is knowing the difference between RIGHT
    – and ALMOST right.

    And the only way to Biblically “KNOW the certainty of the words of truth” is to read, study, and PRAY for “the Holy Ghost” to teach us “the truth” that is written in ‘the Operators Manual for Life’ ~ the Holy Bible [KJV]:
    “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,
    and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so”
    (Acts 17:11 ~ KJV) ~ AND 2 Timothy 2:15 [KJV]

    – AND remember that we are in a 24/7/365 war – just exactly as we are told in “the word of the Lord”:
    “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
    (Ephesians 6:12 ~ KJV)

    – For there are fewer and ever-fewer Biblically sound sources that give reliable STRONG WARNING against evil
    – Which leads me to wonder how deeply “Lucifer”, “the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan” – the ‘master counterfeiter’ has infiltrated into that which is called ‘Christianity’ – the ‘Lukewarm Ecumenical Compromising Church’ here in ‘Amerika’, Great Britain, Australia, and the rest of the ‘Westernized world?
    “… Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” ~ (Luke 18:8 ~ KJV)

    It is a fact that false teaching and “false teachers” are often very difficult to spot, and are much more destructive than most people realize, and these fal$e teaching$$$$$$ are becoming exponentially more frequent and “subtil” – which is why those who truly are believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour” must be evermore vigilant and pray for Biblical discernment in these increasingly evil times that we are living in – – – RIGHT NOW

    It is my Biblical understanding that we are definitely now at the point where EVERY pastor/teacher/ministry should be closely checked with Biblical discernment in accordance with Acts 17:11 and 2 Timothy 2:15 [KJV]
    – for there is such an exponential increase of ‘spiritual darkness’ because of people ‘falling for’ ‘FAL$E TEACHER$$$$$$’ and ‘FAL$E PROFIT$$$$$$’ and their teaching$$$$$$ of non-Biblical “heresies” via delusions – deceptions – deliberate deceits – irrationality – confusion – AND ‘Verbal $emantic$’ – not only here in ‘Amerika’ – but all around the world
    – for that which happened before the first coming of “the Lord Jesus Christ” is happening yet again – the denial and mis-understanding by most of ‘the religious crowd’ of “the certainty of the words of truth”
    – But this time it is occurring before the appearing ‘in the air’ of “the Lord Jesus Christ” for the ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’ of His “church”.

    *** Please read and think very seriously about the article written 350 years ago – by William Dell in 1666 on ‘False Prophets’ – ‘The Trial Of Spirits – Both In Teachers And Hearers’ | Apologetics Coordination Team (ACT) @ http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thetrialofspirits.html

    Those very few who truly are ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ must constantly pray for Biblically wisdom and discernment in these increasingly ‘spiritually black’ end times of constant exponential increases of Satanically inspired and led attacks – about which I recently read a comment that was along the lines of

    ‘You Christians are in a full scale war – and you don’t even know it!
    You are being attacked by the evil powers of darkness through spells – and incantations – and musick – and symbols – and colours – and ‘verbal semantics’ – ad nauseum . . . . . .
    – yet you do not even know what is going on… because you are playing church!
    You will not read, study, or really believe “the certainty of the words of truth” that are written in the Holy Bible [KJV] – while Satan is going for your jugular vein!’

    Yet – How very-very few that call themselves ‘Christians’ there are that truly and continually believe and heed the STRONG BIBLICAL WARNINGS about the total and utter malevolent evil, hatred, and “subtilty” against all mankind by ‘the evil one’ and his followers – Just exactly as we are STRONGLY WARNED about in “the word of the Lord” – that “the Devil” is “full of all subtilty and all mischief”, and that he and his followers will never “cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord”:
    “Be sober, be vigilant;
    because your adversary the devil,
    as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
    (1 Peter 5:8 ~ KJV)

    Every one who is truly a Biblically “born again” “believeth” follower of “the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” should read – and believe – and heed that which “our beloved brother Paul” WARNED about in “the word of the Lord”, the Holy Bible [KJV]:
    “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
    transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    And no marvel;
    for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
    whose end shall be according to their works.
    (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ~ KJV)
    .

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Dear Bro Nick

    I see this is the second time you have quoted Charles Spurgeon. Can I please ask you, are you a Calvinist?

  • Bro. Nick

    Marion wrote on 7 June, 2012 at 6:41 pm about whom we should trust to teach us Biblically sound Doctrine and Theology.
    It is my personal Biblical understanding that she ‘hit the nail on the head’ – for it is written that “the Lord Jesus Christ” personally said:
    “And I say unto you,
    Ask, and it shall be given you;
    seek, and ye shall find;
    knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
    For every one that asketh receiveth;
    and he that seeketh findeth;
    and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”
    (Luke 11:9-10 ~ KJV)

    My closest ‘brother in Jesus Christ’ is an itenerant, non-denominational Kenyan pastor who owns one book ~ ‘The Book’, the Holy Bible [KJV].
    Brother John calls me on his cell-phone from Kenya, and we have wonderful God-centered fellowship. He has such real and practical Biblical understanding and discernment of Biblical truth that comes because of his very real trust in “the Holy Ghost” to teach him “the certainty of the words of truth” – and he knows “the truth” that “the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy” doth reveal to those that seek HIM.
    How and why – Because it is “the truth”:
    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways,
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
    (Isaiah 55:8-9 ~ KJV)

    How many of us really believe what “the only wise God” hath told us? – or do we choose to trust men?
    “Whom shall he teach knowledge?
    and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
    them that are weaned from the milk,
    and drawn from the breasts.
    For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
    line upon line, line upon line;
    here a little, and there a little:”
    (Isaiah 28:9-10 ~ KJV)

    How those of us who truly are Biblically “born again” beievers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”
    – we should spend more time reading, and praying, and studying, and “by faith” believe and trust that we may “know the certainty of the words of truth” that are written in “the word of the Lord” – for “the Lord Jesus Christ” personally said:
    “These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
    he shall teach you all things,
    and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you:
    not as the world giveth, give I unto you.
    Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”
    (John 14:25-27 ~ KJV)
    .

  • Bro. Nick

    Deborah – Thank you for being concerned and honest enough to ask. No – I am not a Calvinist – But I give credit to the man that made that statement about Biblical Discernment – which is even more necessary in these increasingly ‘spiritually black’ ‘end times’ that we are living in – – RIGHT NOW
    “Knowing this first,
    that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?
    for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    (2 Peter 3:3-4 ~ KJV)

    As your article and the comments have made very clear – there are many-many that call themselves ‘Christians’
    – they are at the best deceived – and at the worst the willing and wanton ministers of Satan – but no wonder, for it is written:
    “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
    transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    And no marvel;
    for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
    whose end shall be according to their works.
    (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ~ KJV)

    My personal belief is that Biblical Salvation is by ‘Grace alone – through Faith alone ~ in the Lord Jesus Christ alone’ – and in the ‘pre-tribulation Rapture’ of “the church” – which is of only those who are truly Biblically “born again” believers and followers of “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”

    – And I know “the certainty of the words of truth”:
    “He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly.
    Amen.
    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be WITH you all.
    Amen.”
    (Revelation 22:20-21 ~ KJV)
    .

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thanks Bro Nick for your reply :)

    Here is a thought to ponder on because I have had to deal with this myself, “can I quote false teachers in a favorable light, because what they are saying just happens to be correct?” And I went to the bible for this and I studied and I realised that never once did the prophets of the OT, disciples or Jesus Himself quote from false teachers. If they did quote someone it was to prove a point and show that that person was preaching falsely. So just think about that one… and them let me know what you think :)

  • Bro. Nick

    Dear Sister Deborah – I do apologize for being slow on my responding as you have so kindly done in your greetings. I get very focused on my thoughts.

    You make a very valid comment about quoting “false teachers”, those who truly are Biblically called “hirelings’.

    It is my personal Biblical understanding that C.H. Spurgeon is not a “false teacher”. I have done very little personal checking about him – for I have actually read very little of what he personally wrote or said.
    From one of the comments about him that I did read, it is my understanding that he personally believed in Calvinism – to what degree I do not know – But that he did not strongly emphasize it in his writings or teaching.

    There is the very real question that I often wrestle with – where is ‘the line’ between being a fallible human being that has mistaken beliefs and understandings of “the truth” that is written in “the word of the Lord” – because each and every one of us have our ‘personal bumps, and warts, and foibles’
    – and I know that mine are very many, for if you know me like I know me – you would not listen or post anything that I write – but if – – – -.
    Those few who truly are ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ need to always remember “the certainty of the words of truth”:
    “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing,
    he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”
    (1 Corinthians 8:2 ~ KJV)

    – It is my Biblical understanding that C.H. Spurgeon was a true Biblically “born again” believer and follower of “the Lord Jesus Christ” whom he loved and taught about.
    – Also – he is not physically alive to defend himself against what anyone says about him.
    I try to very seriously personally consider the answer that “the Lord Jesus Christ” gave when HE was asked about other teachers – that were not saying against HIS teachings:
    “And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name;
    and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
    And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not:
    for he that is not against us is for us.”
    (Luke 9:49-50 ~ KJV)

    When does a person/ministry/denomination ‘cross the line’ and become a Biblical “false teacher” – either through ignorance – or ‘with malice aforethought’?
    – Which is an ever-more important question for each of us to ask ourselves in these extremely dangerous ‘end times’ of constant exponential increases in Satanically inspired and led ‘spiritual darkness’ being caused by multitudes of delusions – and deceptions – and deliberate deceits – and ‘Verbal Semantics’ – and confusion – and wickedness – and . . . . . .
    It is my personal understanding that there are very-very few Biblically sound believers – or pastors/teachers – or ministries – or denominations – which in my Biblical understanding – is yet another ‘in process’ fulfillment of yet another Biblical Prophecy:
    “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
    but of hearing the words of the LORD:
    And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
    they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
    In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
    They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth;
    and, The manner of Beer–sheba liveth;
    even they shall fall, and never rise up again.”
    (Amos 8:11-14 ~ KJV)

    Personally – I start to get a questioning ‘in my spirit’ about what a person says or writes. I then pray for God-given discernment and understanding – and do personal checking and research about what their beliefs and teachings actually are (Acts 17:11 | 2 Timothy 2:15 ~ KJV)
    When I do my checking, I ask for “the Holy Ghost” to lead me to which articles to read – which interestingly is what led me to do some checking about Roger Oakland last night. I am very thankful to have been led to your website – and specifically to this article.
    I had previously found Dr. Chuch Missler to be someone that I Biblically understand is a “false teacher” and “an hireling”. I will not personally read anything by/watch/recommend any of his material/teaching to anyone.

    – As Sir Walter Scott wrote – ‘Oh, what a tangled web we weave…when first we practice to deceive.’

    – BUT most importantly it is written in “the word of the Lord”:
    “But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare,
    and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
    For the love of money is the root of all evil:
    which while some coveted after,
    they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
    But thou, O man of God, flee these things;
    and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
    Fight the good fight of faith,
    lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.”
    (1 Timothy 6:9-12 ~ KJV)
    .

  • Hi Bro Nick

    You wrote:

    There is the very real question that I often wrestle with – where is ‘the line’ between being a fallible human being that has mistaken beliefs and understandings of “the truth” that is written in “the word of the Lord” – because each and every one of us have our ‘personal bumps, and warts, and foibles’
    – and I know that mine are very many, for if you know me like I know me – you would not listen or post anything that I write – but if – – – -.
    Those few who truly are ‘Biblical CHRISTians’ need to always remember “the certainty of the words of truth”:
    “And if any man think that he knoweth any thing,
    he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.”
    (1 Corinthians 8:2 ~ KJV)

    First off, the above passage is not about salvation but pagan practices in the eating of meat offered to idols. We dare not misunderstand or misrepresent the doctrine of salvation and how to be saved (Proverbs 14:12). Even a little child perfectly understands salvation and how to be saved. Beware of a false humility and wrong contextualization. Calvinism in its entirety (TULIP) is a false gospel because it misrepresents biblical salvation even a child can understand

    As far as Spurgeon is concerned, please read this article.

    http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.php

    Please take special not of his testimony.

    I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in TEARS OF GRATITUDE that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so.

    And now compare it with the following.

    Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I THANK THEE, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
    (Luk 18:10-14)

    Is there any difference? Perhaps you can elaborate a little more on what the differences are? As soon as you compare others with yourself in an effort to assess where you stand spiritually in the sight of God, you have missed the mark (which, by the way, is sin). This is not a testimony. It is outright boasting, the very same way the Pharisee boasted. You don’t thank God for being a little better that the worst sinners on the planet. Like Paul, you humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and call your self the chief of sinners. Spurgeon – the Prince of Preachers – REALLY? Disgusting!

  • Dear Bro Nick

    I think you need to study what the doctrine of Calvinism is all about and then go and study what Charles Spurgeon really preached and what he really believed. There is a GREAT MISCONCEPTION that Surgeon was a genuine born again man, if he repented of all his false teaching before the died then yes I suppose he was born again but up and until that point he preached the horrendous false gospel of Calvinism’s ‘doctrine of grace’ i.e., 5 points of tulip.

    The thing that makes Surgeon so dangerous is that he speaks out of both sides of his mouth, on moment he says man has free will and the next moment he declares that man has no free will and so he goes on. He continuously trashes the gospel of salvation. This is why those looking for the truth fall for his teachings and believe he is not a Calvinist when he was. This is why so many people end up being Calvinist’s themselves because they are subliminally indoctrinated by Charles Spurgeon’s teachings and don’t even know it is happening until the day you question them and they declare they believe in the ‘doctrines of grace’.

    You speak so passionately about not following false teachers, yet you are following one and declare he is a true man of God without doing due diligence of testing the spirits. Please test Spurgeon’s teachings. :)

    Read articles on Spurgeon on this website please. https://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/peoples-names-all-names/peoples-names-letter-c/charles-haddon-spurgeon-1834-1892-thomas-spurgeon/

  • Bro Nick

    You said “where is ‘the line’ between being a fallible human being that has mistaken beliefs and understandings of “the truth” that is written in “the word of the Lord”.

    Does God say anywhere in the bible that there is a fine line between sinning and not sinning? No, you are either sinning or you are not. However there is a fine line that people can tread and it’s called being ‘luke warm’ and what does God do? He vomits you out. Revelation 3:16 And being luke warm means you are not born again.
    A born again person if they ever do preach false teaching the Holy Spirit will warn them that they are, what does the bible say? He leads you into ALL truth John 16:13, not a fine line between truth and lies. And when a genuine believer realises they are speaking falsely they repent to Jesus Christ Himself and then to the public (if they are preaching to the public) and CHANGE their view and keep it that way, not chop and change which ever way the wind blows. Ephesians 4:14

    You said, “Also – he is not physically alive to defend himself against what anyone says about him.”

    Ah no no, this is not the truth, does that mean I can’t write any article about any false teacher let’s take Simon Magus for example, mentioned in the bible because they are not alive to defend themselves? That means I can’t question any of the Pope’s teachings from previous centuries gone by because they are all dead and can’t defend themselves. Sorry John Paul II you escaped scrutiny because Bro Nick said you can’t be questioned you are dead. Sorry but I have to just laugh a little if you don’t mind. :)

  • Bro. Nick. You wrote:

    – Also – he is not physically alive to defend himself against what anyone says about him.

    The Bible doesn’t say we should earnestly contend for Charles Spurgeon and all the other false teachers who once lived on the earth because they no longer live.

    It says: “. . . we should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3)

  • Peter

    Deborah, so in your opinion Charles Spurgeon was unsaved?

  • Hi Peter. I asked Bro. Nick to explain to me the difference between Spurgeon’s and the Pharisee’s testimony. Maybe you can help him?

    Spurgeon
    I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in TEARS OF GRATITUDE that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so.

    Pharisee
    Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I THANK THEE, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luk 18:10-14)

  • Bro. Nick

    Tom (Discerning the World) – 12 May, 2016 at 4:15 am — You did not even give me the courtesy of asking why I quoted 1 Corinthians 8:2 [KJV] – you told me that I am wrong.

    Personally I know that ‘next to what God knows – I know next to nothing at all’ (the words written in a kids song) – for “the Lord God Almighty” says of Himself:
    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways,
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
    (Isaiah 55:8-9 ~ KJV)

    And:
    “Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,
    Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?”
    (Jeremiah 32:26-27 ~ KJV)

    – so 1 Corinthians 8:2 [KJV] – in my personal Biblical understanding – has multiple meanings – none of which contradict – but supplement each other.

    And then you go on to tell me the great evils of TULIP – which I am basically familiar with and do not believe – for I am not a Calvinist – nor an Armenianist of any degree. My desire is to be a ‘Biblical CHRISTian’.

    — and then there are 3 more messages judging and condemning C.H. Spurgeon and my comments about him.

    Deborah and Tom – About my comment – ‘– Also – he is not physically alive to defend himself against what anyone says about him.’ – I wrote and meant that only about C.H. Spurgeon
    — not to or about any of those others in the very partial lists and Scriptures that you gave.

    I gather that you truly do think that you know my many-many ‘personal bumps, and warts, and foibles’, and that you also think that you know me like I know me – – – – – –
    NO – I am not being falsely humble, for the words of the publican written about in Luke 18:13 [KJV] have very real and deep personal meaning to me:
    “God be merciful to me a sinner.”

    If you wish to remove any or all of my comments – please feel free to do so – for this is Your ministry. – Nick
    .

  • Dear Nick as I see your ‘Bro’ has been taken away.

    As we say here in South Africa “EISHHH” (which is like a ‘GHASP’). So upset over so few questions? We are only trying to help you see that Spurgeon is a Calvinist – but you won’t have any of it.

    You said, “he is not physically alive to defend himself against what anyone says about him.’ – I wrote and meant that only about C.H. Spurgeon”

    Gosh you must really like Spurgeon that much if your logic can only be applied to Spurgeon and no one else…

    Ok Nick ‘who says he is not a Calvinist’ you can go now and free yourself from this website and our questions.

  • Dear Peter

    Ahh look who is back.

    Can I ask you a question, in your opinion ‘do you think it’s right or wrong to hack websites”?

  • Dear Peter

    Let me ask you again…In your Calvinistic opinion do you think it is a SIN (never-mind illegal) to hack someone’s website?

  • Bro. Nick

    You are not a Calvinist and yet you endorse a Calvinist (Charles Spurgeon) who followed a serieal killer’s (John Calvin’s) teachings? You have as yet not answered my question. Explain to me the difference between Spurgeon’s and the Pharisee’s testimonies.

    Spurgeon

    I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in TEARS OF GRATITUDE that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so.

    Pharisee

    Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I THANK THEE, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luk 18:10-14).

    Spurgeon is not here to defend himself and neither is the Pharisee.

  • Deborah, I don’t think we will ever hear from Peter again. He’s afraid that he may have to run the gauntlet.

  • Peter

    Tom, here I am. What gauntlet do I have to run?

  • Dear Peter

    I am going to tell you something because I feel I need to let you know about a very strange co-incidence that has happened twice on this website every time you comment.

    The first time you came to comment – while you were questioning me, this website got hacked and the person deleted all the comments (except the last few) which where your comments. The person also deleted the ‘categories’ from most, if not all the Calvinist articles.

    Now here is the co-incidence you appear again tonight and comment and out of the blue at the very same time someone tried to hack this website again.

    Do you think that is a very strange co-incidence or what?

  • So this is what’s going to happen, I am going to forgive this person, but they must know that a security company is building a case against them because what they are doing is illegal.

    I also pray that this person realises that they are sinning and no amount of believing they are ‘Elect’ is going to save them from God’s wrath on judgement day. They need to go to Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness and then they need to ask Jesus Christ the Son of God to show them that the root of their evil deeds is the fact that they believe in a false doctrine called Calvinism. They need to realise that they are indeed lost and need salvation, and that they need to come out of this false teaching by allowing Jesus Christ to show them the gospel truth. Amen

  • Peter

    Deborah, you are most welcome to investigate who is hacking your site. It certainly is not me since I neither have the inclination and am way to computer illiterate to do so. I have to admit that it does seem strange that every time I comment that you are hacked and would be interested in knowing who is doing it since their actions are implicating me in something I have no part in. May the Lord deal with whoever is being dishonest in this hacking incident in the manner He sees fit.

  • If I may, I clearly see the difference in the account of pharisee vs spurgeon (sturgeon or whatever, since I don’t care and simply read your comments for fun). In my opinion, which happens to differ with your opinion but mine is superior to me than yours, is that the difference is “heart”, I simply can’t understand how none of you can spot it in the texts; pharisee is boastful and prideful speaking from the position of supremacy in his eyes, while Sturgeon spoke from the position of grace and True gratefulness to God. Pretty simple. Just because one has a biased opinion about someone, it doesn’t mean that that opinon must be shared by everyone else (especially in your case when your opinion is obviously wrong). :) Go on.:) P.S.: Lots of hate on this website and comments, almost no positive or constructive or Christian-like information. Guess you guys skipped Jesus’ interpretation of the most important commandment (you know, the one more important than any other ones). Peace, seriously feel bad for you, must be miserable to live like that.

  • Alex M

    It’s not the way you speak that determines doctrine; it is what you say in accordance with the Word of God or not.

    To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20)

    Read these articles, if you will

    Was Charles Haddon Spurgeon a Clairvoyant?

    Charles Haddon Spurgeon: The Prince of Preachers

  • David Petros

    I came across this main article while looking up some detail on Roger Oakland.
    I then tried to verify your criticism of him. But I can’t find a link today (2016/10/01) that proves he has ties to KH Europe. Aso far as I can see her always was and he is still against ecumenism.
    Maybe you need to edit your main article?
    BTW: thanks for the elucidation on Charles Spurgeon. After reading his diatribe on the gospel of grace I think he was ignorant of who/what Calvin did. As well as the false Theology and Christology contained in his Calvanist doctrines…
    Finding out he is “off” I am not inclined to read more of what he said…

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