Ingrid Schlueter – Celebrates Holy Cross Day
Ingrid Schlueter – Celebrates Holy Cross Day
You’ve got to be kidding me? Ok, Ingrid… What is this about? Isn’t this the same as Advent? Holy Cross day is part of the Catholic year (Liturgical year). I can’t believe one needs to uphold a day in the year to place emphasis on what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us. What other ‘strange’ days does your church emphasize?
Does the bible not emphasise that one is to come OUT OF the Roman Catholic church totally and utterly? But hang on a seccie, are you not a Lutheran, which is nothing but a more ‘christianized’ version of the Catholic church? Just because Luther defied the Roman Catholic church and nailed a piece of paper to a door does not make the man a Christian, all he did was bring about a new movement. Lutheranism and Calvinism all come from Rome and will go back to Rome.
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The Centrality of the Cross
Sep 14, by Ingrid Schlueter
“Our church has a carillon that can play samples of church bells from around the world. Our call to worship today was unique in that we heard the bells of Kreuzkirche in Dresden to call us to prayer. The church was founded before the Reformation in 1215 when over in England the Magna Carta was being signed by King John at Runnymede. During the Reformation, the first Lutheran service was held there after being rebuilt in 1539.
Today was the 18th Sunday after Pentecost which is traditionally a service called Holy Cross day. The emphasis was our need for the work of Christ accomplished on that cross of Calvary 2000 years ago, and the importance of the centrality of the cross in our lives today. The hymns today were all about the cross, and the opening hymn was the wonderful, Lift High the Cross...”
Source [no longer available on line]:
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“Holy Cross Day, 14 September, originally commemorates the alleged discovery of the true cross in Palestine in the fourth century. In Lutheran churches, it is the occasion for preaching on the theology of the cross.” — http://www.kencollins.com/holy-07.htm
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[EDITED 22 May 2010: Article edited as requested by Ingrid Schlueter.
See Ingrid’s comments:
with my response here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/05/16/ingrid-schlueter-celebrates-holy-cross-day/#comment-9781
see further comments made my Ingrid on the topic of Holy Cross day in the comments section]
It has been noted by Amanda that:
Lutherans do not follow the Catholic doctrine, just as Calvinist’s don’t either… BUT, the tap root of Roman Catholicism is there and never left.
Why would anyone call themselves a Lutheran or even acknowledge Martin Luther in any way, knowing that Martin Luther hated Jews.
Martin Luther and antisemitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_and_antisemitism
I find it interesting that just as Calvinists uphold John Calvin, and Lutherans uphold Martin Luther – both are still part of the Roman Catholic church – the only difference is that Calvinists/Lutherans teach a good solid gospel.
Again we are sitting with the ‘little leaven’ that WILL destroy the entire loaf. And because we are REALLY in the last days, people have to get out of the RCC church totally. There is no more if’s and but’s or excuses that are going to cut it anymore.
See how Calvinism has overtaken – well… Lutherans will naturally do the same because it’s the same doctrine.
Ingrid supports Paul Washer.
Just another Calvinist sliding down the slope. After I learned she was a Calvinist along with Ken Silva, et al, I was not interested in anything she had to say even if it was “right on” in the discernment arena. Essential truth trumps any common ground shared on discernment issues. Thanks for sniffing this out Deb.
So what exactly is the difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism?
Both have a tap root (I like this word “tap root” to describe this) leading into the catholic church. There is no difference is there? Slightly different doctrines, both having a pretty decent biblical understanding but Calvin was heretical in his thinking and so was Martin Luther.
I find it almost incomprehensible that anyone could call themselves a name after a man who hated Jews. So people now have 2 options here:
1) They learn the truth about their man-hero and dump him and his heresy and follow Jesus Christ instead and rely on the Word of God only or
2) Carry on calling oneself a Lutheran and be in agreement with a man who hated Jews.
So, now we know. Not only is mankind ‘evolving’ into godhood, but the world is being transformed into a Communist/Socialist world (where the fittest / chosen will survive), and Jews are not part of their god’s plan.
You know, I have no idea how I even landed on this article of Ingrid’s. I was gooooggggglllinnggggg info on Luther and some other keywords, and there it was. It was one of those *Oh not again* moments where you think about jumping off your balcony but…don’t… because you have to write the article. But every now and then the *if I jump head first it could be a painless death* thought comes to mind hahaha. Don’t worry my balcony is not high – it would take multiple attempts and by then I would have given up and be back to writing the article again.
The main diff as I see it from my ground floor home – no balcony to leap off – Lutherans are more starchy, they are closer to ML in that they believe in the presence of Christ in the elements but not transubstantiation and they baptize infants. The newer breed of Calvinists (Reformed) gravitate more toward the more fundamental side and don’t share these beliefs. The Lutherans ironically, are very close to Roman Catholics and yet they would vehemently deny it. On the other hand the neoCalvinists are far away from the Catholics and many are apologists against the Catholic Church such as Mike Gendron. Reformed do not hold to baptismal regeneration in any form.
This is a very technical explanation of the differences between Lutheranism and Reformed. Be forewarned – keep a cup of very strong coffee handy or some No-Doz. The speaker sounds like he has as personality as a dinner roll.
It seems that Calvin and Luther had their differences but also had their common ground.
Oops! Forgot to include the link on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGJKiU90JHs&feature=related
“After I learned she was a Calvinist along with Ken Silva, et al,…”
I don’t know who the “et al” is but I can tell you that neither Ingrid nor myself are Calvinists. I know Bob DeWaay as well and I’ve never heard him say he was a Calvinist either.
Thought you might want to know.
Burning Lamp
The the Lord’s supper is done to bring to mind the work done on the cross on our behalf, so all their debating about the presence of God is meaningless. This is the danger in theological retoric. We must claim to know nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified. We must keep our focus on the Gospel message and not get pulled off track onto these rabbit trails. The discussion about Mary being the Mother of God does not need a whole theology to explain, we just accept that she gave birth to Jesus Christ. That was her role. We do not need to debate everything so heavily, just believe it because God said it. This is the problem that Paul was adressing about following men. Christ is not divided and that is why I like this site because we are all seeking to follow Jesus Christ and not the teachings of men.
I have a Mormon neighbor and a Roman Catholic neigbor and the Lord has been impressing on me that I need to share with them that Jesus Christ came to set them free from the pentalty of the law. Both religions keep their followers in fear of the law, and they should be afraid, because no flesh will be justified by keeping the law. This is the stumbling stone, that most people are so proud to think that they can keep the law and refuse to rest in the righteousness of Christ. We are told that what we began by faith and should continue forward by faith, not trying to be perfected by fleshly strength.
Anyway, it is sad to see this man defending man’s teachings and I pray that God will reveal any teachings that I currently hold that are not true.
Ken, it is pretty evident from Bob’s writings that he is of the Reformed mindset. Ask him about his conversation some years ago with Dave Hunt about the topic of Calvinism. As far as the et al is concerned, I simply meant that many of the discernment ministries are Reformed/Calvinist – example is Mike Gendron. If you are not Reformed/Calvinist, you sure hang out with a lot of them. You shouldn’t mind being called one of them as you must not have an aversion to Reformed/Calvinist theology. If you are not indeed of Reformed/Calvinist theology, then I retract the statement. But if you choose to hang out with these folks then you can expect to be painted with the same brush.Same goes for Ingrid.
You err if you do not expose the false teaching of Calvinism/Reformed theology. It is just as wrong as emergent, purpose driven, word faith, etc. But this you fail to do. Why? Because it would offend James White, John MacArthur and others you list on your website who are Calvinist.
It is a fact that Calvinism/Reformed is alive and well in your denomination, the SBC.
Grace and peace and may we all expose the truth no matter whose toes it steps on.
Ken, if this indeed you, I see you are taking a beating of the Leonard Sweet matter with him and a Calvary Chapel. I don’t want to pile on when you are under attack, but hopefully the exhortation I offered will give you pause. I sense you are a very sincere brother in Christ and I pray the Lord will impart to you wisdom and discernment in all things.
Hi Deborah, (and others)
Two things I want to say that are prompted by some comments above.
1. Martin Luther didn’t start out hating Jews. In fact early on he reviled the Roman Catholic church for their anti-Semitism!
However, as his evangelistic overtures to Jews throughout his life were rebuffed, he became embittered by their rejection. His other root of bitterness was resentment towards his former superiors.
Combined with a certain amount of pride apparent in his earlier criticisms of the RC treatment of the Jews, and obviously not repented of, these two roots of bitterness grew into an even more vitriolic anti-Semitism than that which he so despised earlier in his life. This is probably the most extreme object lesson in forgiving your enemies and being gracious towards those that refuse your message that I can think of.
Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with shaking off the dust from my feet, but it is vitally important that we don’t allow bitterness any place in our hearts, or we could end up like Martin Luther, whose last sermon on the Jews, was used by the Nazis as a template for their treatment of the Jews.
Ironic that the others that he hated so, were prime movers in that abomination as well. OOOPS! SSSHHH! Not too many people like to hear that!
Of course there were other areas where he was in error, so the other lesson is to be as doctrinally pure as you can be. Sola Scriptura was a catch-cry that Luther would’ve been wise to take to heart, but I have an impression of him being quite proud and I suspect that his opposition to Rome was fueled more by a desire to be ‘right’ than a heartfelt desire to seek and love the truth.
Lord keep me from that pride and foolishness!
2. The blood of Jesus was unique. It had to be, because a baby’s blood type is decided by the father and the mother. Jesus was a unique individual in that He was a product of a miraculous conception (not to be confused with the immaculate conception of Roman Catholic heresy fame!). This means that at the very least, his blood came from God and his mother. I was told by my father, who was a General Practitioner and Obstetrician, as well as a solidly Bible-believing Christian, that the father decides the blood type, which would have meant that Jesus’ blood would have been divine.
All the information that I can find today on the subject of blood types and the influence of parents on them, says that BOTH parents genetically play a role, but seeing as the father determines a baby’s gender, I guess it could be as I remember my Dad telling me. (Any medico’s out there want to help me out? Please do so.)
Even if there was a mixture of human and divine, it still makes Jesus’ blood VASTLY different to anyone else who ever lived, so to say that there was nothing special about Jesus’ blood is just ridiculous.
I’m surprised that the logic of that didn’t slap John MacArthur in the face. He’s not unintelligent, after all. Then again, Solomon for all his wisdom made some very foolish decisions in his later life.
I was very impressed with his book “The Truth War”, so these revelations of unscriptural positions of his are as distressing to me as they’ve been to others here.
Still, I have learnt that God is the first, last, and only one I should put my trust in without reservation. Everyone else needs to be tested, including myself.
I came to the conclusion a while ago that if I was going to be serious about loving the truth, I had to be prepared to scrap everything that I’d ever learned if it didn’t line up with the scriptures.
It has meant many tears, and almost desolation as I cried out; “Is there no-one who is true to the Word of God?” I believe that God is trying us by fire, so that we will get rid of the wood, hay, and stubble in our lives and learn to rely only on Him. It is very painful at times, but we will be safer for it as things get darker.
Shalom, (DEFINITELY NOT THE KIND THAT THESE SILLY PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT ABOVE!)
TRUE PEACE, LOVE, AND BLESSINGS TO YOU AND YOUR HOUSES IN JESUS’ NAME,
Alan.
Valerie
One thing about ‘the Lord’s Supper’ that we tend to forget is that it is actually part of a Passover meal and wasn’t a new thing that Jesus instituted on that night, but rather a fulfillment of the whole meal.
The cup was the third cup in a series of four that are drunk throughout the meal and was called the cup of redemption centuries before that night.
The unleavened bread comes with holes in it and is striped as it cooks, which is a picture of His body, which was broken (as the bread is during the Passover Seder before being shared around), striped, and pierced for us.
I firmly believe that error in the church would’ve had a much harder time gaining acceptance if the words of Paul in Romans had been heeded and we had not lost touch with the Jewish roots of our faith.
Mind you, there are folks I knew a decade ago, who got so involved in loving the Jews and Israel, that they forgot to love Jesus and have now become observers of the Torah to the point that now they deny Jesus Christ and are to all intents and purposes converts to Judaism, waiting for the Messiah.
So much deception!
Aaahhh, I know how Jeremiah felt!
Come quickly Lord!
Shalom,
Alan.
“I see you are taking a beating of the Leonard Sweet matter with him and a Calvary Chapel.”
Hardly.
Ken Silva
Deborah (Discerning the World) is away for the week however she sent a message to pass on to you via sms:
Please tell Ken Silva that im so happy he came to chat and that we as genuine Christians need to look out for each other hence we ask questions from both sides so we can learn and help protect each other because this is what the bible tells us. I love Ingrid and Ken ministries but we are to test everything and never be complaisant just as i expect them to show me my errors as well. And tell them i might only be online Thursday.
Pastor Silva, I was trying to be gracious and compassionate. When those in the Body who stand for truth are attacked we who share that passion feel the stings as well. Such a terse response as “Hardly” is disappointing.
Grace and peace
It’s this kind of unbelievable post that makes me question what in the world I’ve been a part of for the last 21 years. That a nearly two year old post of mine, celebrating the cross of Jesus Christ and what it means, would be fodder for attack of my beliefs online is beyond satire. I am not a Washer fan, I am not a Calvinist, I am not a Lutheran, I am not a Methodist, I am not a Protestant, I am not a Roman Catholic and given what “Christians” do to me online, I’m not sure about that one either anymore. You have too much time on your hands, Deborah, and you are clearly short of material, in more ways than one.
Grace and Peace.
P.S. You also did not have permission to cut and paste my post in its entirety from Slice. Surely you’ve learned some blogging ethics by now, or does that not apply to you? I’m formally asking you to remove the cut and paste that also features our copyrighted logo.
I see a lot of contention and strife on here. I see it on many (if not all) of the blogs and websites referenced on here. Although the cause to “expose” false teaching passing as Christian is noble and right, doing it on any blog or website with random people spouting off without any real identity or accountability is not productive. Its cowardly and foolish. You should all get back to doing the work of the Lord, and stop being such fools.
Hey Deb,
Caron here. I was so surprised to read this. I love Ingrid and John MacArthur is my pastor. Both, I know are committed believers. We may not all agree on secondary issues, but I like that saying that goes something like, “Unity in the essentials and liberty in the non-essentials.” I realize from what I have read that some of these issues may be essential for you and some of those on here, but as someone who has also worked in discernment ministry with Justin, there are real false teachers out there deceiving masses that truly need to be exposed as they lead people down the path to hell (while they THINK they are going to heaven) with their deception. I’d rethink this, sister. Blessings.
Caron
1) How can you tell if some is a committed believer?
2) I seem to be hearing the words ‘secondry matters’ a lot lately. Is the Blood of Jesus Christ being ‘liquid’ as per John MacArthur a secondary matter?
3) Regarding Justin Peters – please see my article on Paul Washer and please read this article in full and properly including the part on amillenialism. http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/20/paul-washer-practice-the-presence-silence-and-meditation/
4) What makes you think that if I ask someone a question I am attacking other people? What makes you think I am even attacking the Ingrid by asking this question?
5) Do you think catholic celebrations and things based on catholic traditions are ok for a Christian to celebrate? [And you know what, in another article I spoke to Mom4Truth about celebrating Christmas and Easter and I argued with her a bit saying that it was ok. But you know what? Back in the day I did not know the real hidden message of Christmas (disguised as Jesus’ birthday) and the fertility goddess associated with Easter as they use the timing of passover for their own pagan beliefs. And even when I did learn the truth I still pushed it aside and made excuses. Now I know, because someone had the guts to question me. Will I ever attend a church service on Christmas day or Easter? Now ways! Let alone any other catholic rooted holy day. BECAUSE WE WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST EVERY DAY…why? Because we have the Holy Spirit in us and HE WILL convicts us of these things and sometimes it takes us a while to listen to HIM but we will sooner or later. So here I admit I was wrong and not I will not tell other people it is ok anymore. I will however gladly take the public holidays provided to us for now and eat the yummy food.]
Justin Peters said in his presentation when he came to South Africa that 40% percent of Baptists end up becoming Mormons. Has this phenomenon stopped? I doubt it. So I am now asking Justin to make sure he does not get swept away as the deeper roots of Calvinism are exposed. No one is immune. I double check and triple check and quadruple check everything all the time to make sure what was being taught has now not made a turn in another direction. I hope you understand what I am saying here.
Also am I not allowed to ask questions? And if you read all the comments here you will see that is all I am asking. But based on Ingrid’s reply to my simple question… I am now going to have to ask some more difficult questions in the coming future. I am not sure how these will be handled.
You don’t have to take what I say Caron as being truth. We don’t follow people’s opinions and versions of the truth do we? We do however obey the Word of God.
Robert
Righttttt… so why did you comment? Get back to your ‘works’
Ingrid
Hmmm interesting reply. I never said you were Roman Catholic, etc, etc, etc. I asked a simple question as to why you would celebrate a Catholic ‘rooted’ ceremony?
Are you not Lutheran along with Chris Rosebrough? I’m confused. (This is simple question. Nothing more. In case you think I am accusing you)
I never attacked you Ingrid. I asked a simple question. Why didn’t you just come here and clear up the confusion and say that this was something you did 2 years ago and know it’s rooted in Roman Catholicism and that you know the difference now.
I have no problem with people taking my entire articles and placing them on their websites just as long as they credit me as the author and link back to me. I shall do as you asked. Can I ask a favour? Please keep your article online so people can access it and read it there 🙂
I only read this comment today as I have been offline for a week. Your comment to me has actually shocked me. Never did I expect such horrible words from you. Oh well… what can one do eh? Not much. But I think I hit a nerve that runs into the Catholic church.
And it’s not about being a ‘fan’ of someone. It’s about finding out the truth and being convicted by the Holy Spirit on very important matters. I am not a fan of Paul Washer either – that is why I don’t link to him. Oh just like you did with John Piper, you were for him and then you realised he was not ok anymore and then you told people you were wrong (as all Christians would do to let people know how they feel so they are not led astray) you also removed his links from your site.
>> You have too much time on your hands, Deborah, and you are clearly short of material, in more ways than one.
I think it’s great I have so much time on my hands. And saying I am ‘clearly short on material in more ways that one’ is outright nastiness. Good grief.
Anyhow, the question still remains. Why would you celebrate a catholic celebration?
[EDITED: Ok I see you deleted your article from your site… if you plan to put it up again please let us know where to find it by givning us a new link.]
Burning Lamp
>> If you are not Reformed/Calvinist, you sure hang out with a lot of them. You shouldn’t mind being called one of them as you must not have an aversion to Reformed/Calvinist theology.
Yip. Can’t even add more to that sentence. Well said.
Deborah, you removed the date on my two-year-old post to pass my writing off as a current piece, which is dishonest. Additionally, you are using our copyrighted logo without legal permission. Please be advised that I want it removed from your site. What days I celebrate or do not celebrate are none of your business unless you have created your own South African magisterium. Oh, that’s right. We don’t have such thing as church authority in the Protestant world. We all stand on the Word of God alone. All 24000 denominations. 🙂 This site is an embarrassment to the cause of Christ.
Ingrid
>> you removed the date on my two-year-old post to pass my writing off as a current piece
That is not true. There was no year after the date ’14 Sep’. It only said 14 Sep Ingrid Schlueter, and it makes no difference if it was current or past anyhow. But we will never know if your claim that I am dishonest is true, because you deleted the article, so I will remain dishonest to who ever you tell your story too. But let’s say I accidentally deleted the date (which I didnt). Does that still make me out to be a liar?
Your logo has already been removed – why are you asking again since it’s not there.
The question still remains: Why would you celebrate a catholic celebration? Why can’t you give a nice Christian answer instead of being so downright nasty?
Ingrid Schlueter,
Seen that you are a professed born again christain, you said, “that what days you celebrate or don’t celebrate is none of our business” and seen that you are very much in the public ear, it is very much our business what days you celebrate, especially when you make it public, whether, it is two years ago or now, the point is do you still celebrate holy cross day?
You say you are not Catholic, but, as with all the forms, creeds and ceremonies within the Catholic church, this is idolitary. Since when does a truly born again Christian worship the cross, which is what you are doing. If you were truly born again, the Holy Spirit living within you, would tell you this is wrong. You would not be arguing with Deborah, you would admit that this is not right, and would be supporting her in this regard. So, the question she has asked, still remains the same, “Why would you celebrate a catholic celebration?”
Another comment you made is “We all stand on the Word of God alone. All 24000 denominations” That is quite a statement to make. You can actually guarantee this – Wow!
Remember, you can fool man, but you cannot fool God.
Robert Hannway,
May I ask what “work” you do for the Lord? How do you know that this website has not brought many people to the truth of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, by helping them to see the false teaching that they have been sitting under in their churches (and hundreds of thousands still are) for many years, like myself and others I know.
By the way, what denomination do you belong to?
What false teaching have you exposed and how many people have you reached?
What part does Jesus Christ really have in you life? Are you truly born again.
Ingrid
I would also like to know what 24,000 denominations you are speaking about? Surely when you are born again you are part of th Body of Christ and not part of a denomination. Because there is only One Way, One Truth, One Life – One Word that is Jesus Christ.
Would you be able to list maybe 10 of these denominations so we can get a better understanding of what you are saying?
Ingrid
>> I am not a Washer fan, I am not a Calvinist, I am not a Lutheran, I am not a Methodist, I am not a Protestant, I am not a Roman Catholic and given what “Christians” do to me online, I’m not sure about that one either anymore
What are you saying here? Are you saying you don’t wan’t to be a Christian anymore? You are not sure you want to be a Christian anymore?
Ingrid, how can you even think of writing something like that… who do you follow? Jesus Christ or men? Are you so easily persuaded? I hope not.
Robert Hannway,