Peeps around the World

Blog Stats

wordpress stat

20 Most Recent Comments Scrolling

Christian Top 1000
SA Topsites ::

Paul Washer – Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Paul Washer   Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation

PaulWasher Paul Washer   Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation

Paul Washer – Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation

Notes on the Youtube video below (Busyness and Spiritual Discipline by Paul Washer):

The first part has audio problems, but after minute 4:44 the audio is fixed. You can hear him repeating the same lies and leading sincere people away from genuine Faith in Christ. The Presence of God is not an experience. I am in God’s Presence through the blood of Jesus Christ, not by being silent and sitting at His feet. To be sitting at His feet means that you are learning from Him the truth that is written in the Word of God.

Comments are sprinkled throughout.  At the very beginning of the message he speaks of silence and meditation (5:50) and cites a poem or something that refers to the sacred silence (6:53).  The part were he talks about Practice the Presence is at (21:45) – Paul Washer is quoting “Brother Lawrence – Contemplative Monk”  (1611- 1691). 

Busyness and Spiritual Discipline by Paul Washer - Youtube on December 10, 2009.

 

Who was Brother Lawrence:He uses the phrase “Practice the Presence” and refutes the idea that you can pray as you go, but then he gives it heed by saying you must practice the presence in a time of stillness and solitude. He didn’t use those exact words, but that is the message. These are the buzz words. This teaching is being woven into the teaching of those who are trusted and it is sad to recognise it for what it is. A little leaven meant to leaven the whole lump.

BrotherLawrence Paul Washer   Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation“[T]he 17th century [French] monk, Brother Lawrence, developed a technique–mostly through inspiration and intuition–which leads to results akin to those developed by the continued practice of either Zen or mindfulness meditation. In The Practice of the Presence of God” he wrote:

“This made me resolve to give the all for the All: so after having given myself wholly to GOD, to make all the satisfaction I could for my sins, I renounced, for the love of Him, everything that was not He; and I began to live as if there was none but He and I in the world … I worshipped Him the oftenest that I could, keeping my mind in His holy Presence, and recalling it as often as I found it wandered from Him. I found no small pain in this exercise, and yet I continued it, notwithstanding all the difficulties that occurred, without troubling or disquieting myself when my mind had wandered involuntarily. I made this my business, as much all the day long as at the appointed times of prayer; for at all times, every hour, every minute, even in the height of my business, I drove away from my mind everything that was capable of interrupting my thought of GOD. Such has been my common practice ever since I entered into religion.”   Western Mystical Traditions (Quote by Brother Lawrence from First Letter)

Source:   -www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/brotherlawrence.htm

—————–

Paul Washer and a few of his staff members at HeartCry Missionary often quote C.S. Lewis and promote his books along with J.I. Packer

Lewis’s Acceptance by EvangelicalsCSLewis Paul Washer   Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation

  1. According to a Christianity Today reader’s poll in 1998, Lewis was rated the most influential writer.
  2. Though Lewis died in 1963, sales of his books have risen to two million a year.
  3. In an article commemorating the 100th anniversary of Lewis’s birth, J.I. Packer called him “our patron saint.”
  4. Christianity Today said Lewis “has come to be the Aquinas, the Augustine, and the Aesop of contemporary Evangelicalism” (“Still Surprised by Lewis,” Christianity Today, Sept. 7, 1998).
  5. Wheaton College sponsored a lecture series on C.S. Lewis, and Eerdmans published “The Pilgrim’s Guide” to C.S. Lewis.

Lewis’s Heresies

  1. Christianity Today noted that he was “a man whose theology had decidedly unevangelical elements” (CT, Sept. 7, 1998).
  2. He believed in purgatory, confessed his sins to a priest, and had the last rites performed by a Catholic priest (C.S. Lewis: A Biography, pp. 198, 301). He received the Catholic sacrament of last rites on July 16, 1963.
  3. Lewis rejected the doctrine of bodily resurrection (Biblical Discernment Ministries Letter, Sept.-Oct. 1996).
  4. He believed there is salvation in pagan religions.
  5. Lewis denied the total depravity of man and the substitutionary atonement of Christ.
  6. He believed in theistic evolution and rejected the Bible as the infallible Word of God.
  7. He denied the biblical doctrine of an eternal fiery hell, claiming, instead, that hell is a state of mind: “And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind—is, in the end, Hell” (Lewis, The Great Divorce, p. 65).

Source:  www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/29/the-new-evangelical-evil-fit-for-a-new-dark-age/

—————–

Are all the visible leaders falling for mysticism?

All I can say is that when Jesus Christ came the first time, it was a bunch of nobody’s that he called. The leaders were too busy with their own kingdom to be bothered with the Truth. In fact we know that they wanted to destroy the Messiah. There were apparently a few that eventually listened, but not the majority.

This is the other thing that we must always discern. Has someone changed their theology to be more biblical or are they moving away from a biblical position. We must discern which way their theology is moving. I would hate for someone to quote me from the fall of 2006, because I would have been endorsing the very same teaching that I now oppose. Unfortunately, the trend seems to be exactly what the Bible says, Apostasy!  That is what we are witnessing.

The thing that makes Washer appealing is his stance against lukewarm Christians and push for personal holiness. Funny how we always seems gravitate back to the law. But as Christians we are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul Washer is a staunch Calvinist believing in the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP)

  • Total Hereditary Depravity
  • Unconditional Election
  • Limited Atonement
  • Irresistible Grace
  • Perseverance of the Saints

Paul Washer uses the Purpose Driven Church Model regarding Unity and Church Planting:

6. “Church Planting is the Primary Work of Missions. There are many gifts and callings in the body of Christ, but all of them are to work together on the mission field with the primary goal of planting a biblical church. It is one thing to do mass evangelism and to boast of the numbers of decisions; it is quite another to establish a biblical church.”   [Emphasis added]  —www.heartcrymissionary.com/about/statement_of_faith/essential_convictions

Paul Washer supports Dominion Theology/ Kingdom Now Teaching:

7. “True Missions is Costly. Amy Carmichael explained that missions is no more and no less than an opportunity to die. We live in a fallen world that is at enmity with God and opposes His truth; therefore, missions and suffering go hand in hand. Any advancement of the kingdom of Christ into the dominion of the devil will be met with warfare. There are many countries and people groups where  martyrdom cannot be avoided”.  [Emphasis added]  —www.heartcrymissionary.com/about/statement_of_faith/essential_convictions

[DTW note:  Even though "Amy Carmichael" is speaking about real warfare.  Spiritual warfare can be applied to this as well.  The buzz words - "advancement of the Kingdom of Christ" is what taking dominion is all about]

PaulWasher HeartCryMissionarySociety Paul Washer   Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation

 

Paul Washer refers to HeartCry Missionary as a SOCIETY

This is very concerning.  Born Again Christians are not part of a society.  They are part of the Body of Christ.   Paul Washer considers his ministry a society of like minded people, with similar interests, purposes and passions.

He is subtly promoting Unity.  Like minded people?  Why not say born again Christians? Anyhow, it’s all about like-minded people coming together (does not matter what type of Christian you are) as long as you are coming together with one purpose.

“The HeartCry Missionary Society is not a para-church organisation, rather, we are a ministry under the authority and supervision of a local New Testament Church and its elders.

We call ourselves a society simply because the word denotes a proper association of people with similar interests, purposes, or passions. Those of our church and those who faithfully support this ministry have one abiding purpose:  That God’s Name be great among the nations through the redemption of men and the building up of Christ’s bride.”  [Emphasis added] —www.heartcrymissionary.com/about/accountability/church_and_elders

—————–

Some of HeartCry Missionary Recommended  Links:

  • Grace to You by John MacArthur –  in-depth Bible teaching brings the life-transforming truth of God’s Word to millions of people every day.

[DTW note:  John Mac Arthur is a Calvinist.  Also see article here on John MacArthur exposed - UN connections, and denied the Blood of Jesus Christ and compares Jesus' Blood as just being 'liquid':  John MacArthur I pray this is NOT true! ]

  • Desiring God  by John Piper - Provides God Centered resources from the ministry of Dr. John Piper.

[DTW note: John Piper supports Rick Warren wholeheartedly including contemplative spirituality as he condones Mark Driscoll.     See article on John Piper:  John Piper – Taking Leave and Asks for Forgiveness .      Mark Driscoll on meditation:  Mark Driscoll’s RESURGENCE and EMERGENCE with Catholicism

  • Justin Peters Ministries

[DTW note:  Justin Peters is also a Calvinist]

—————– 

[EDITED:  27 May 2010 - Paul Washer has rescinded his support for Bill Graham in recent years (The Youth conference video below was filmed in 2002).]

Paul Washer promotes Billy Graham starting 37:00 min into the video.

Billy Graham denies Jesus Christ

—————–

Paul Washer and most of the staff at HeartCry Missionary believe in Amillennialism:

Here is a reply to an email I sent to Paul Washer’s Ministry over 2 years ago asking them about Pre-Tribulation, Post-Tribulation, the Rapture, etc.

 from:   Marc Glass <mdglass[at]heartcrymissionary. com>
date:    Tue, Jan 29, 2008 at 6:40 PM
subject:   Re:   HeartCry Missionary Society: For Paul Washer / Marc Glass

Deborah,

There are, basically, 3 views on eschatology (the study of the end times).
The first, which you’re most familiar with, is classified as pre-millennial.
A second, as you have mentioned post-millennial.  The third, and what most
of HeartCry’s staff believes, amillennial.
  One very important thing to keep
in mind is that there has been no consensus on what is the correct view for
2,000 years of Christian history.  There have been very good and godly men
in each eschatological camp.  The proper thing to do is to state what you
believe (and just as important, why you believe it) and then have grace and
love towards those who disagree.  This is certainly an issue that if we can
say anything about with certainty, it is that the Scriptures are not
perfectly clear on it.  God bless.

Marc Glass

—————–

What is Amillennialism:

Amillennialism (Latin: a- “no” + millennialism)

Amillennialism is a view in Christian end-times theology named for its rejection of the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year long, physical reign on the earth. This is in opposition to pre-millennial and some post-millennial views of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation.

In contrast, the amillennial view holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age, (or more rarely, that it ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 — see Preterism).

Amillennialism holds that while Christ’s reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgement and establish a permanent physical reign.”

Teaching

“Amillennialism teaches that the Kingdom of God will not be physically established on earth throughout the “millennium”, but rather

  • that Jesus is presently reigning from heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father,      [DTW Note:  All mankind has to do is preach the gospel and turn the world into a Christian world so that Christ may finally return and judge the wicked]
  • that Jesus also is and will remain with the church until the end of the world, as he promised at the Ascension,    [DTW Note:   This is because they believe the Church is Israel]
  • that at Pentecost, the millennium began, as is shown by Peter using the prophecies of Joel, about the coming of the kingdom, to explain what was happening,     [DTW Note:   Again they can make this claim because they believe that the Church is Israel and that all prophecies have been fulfilled since 70 A.D.]
  • and that, therefore the church and its spread of the good news is Christ’s kingdom.     [DTW Note:   The church and it's spreading of the good news is NOT Christ's Kingdom.  The Kingdom of God is the Holy Spirit in every born again Christians life. Amazing how the correct interpretation of scripture changes EVERYTHING.]

Amillennialism also teaches that the binding of Satan described in Revelation has already occurred.

Therefore Satan has been prevented from deceiving the nations  i.e., he can’t prevent the spreading of the gospel.   This is the only binding he will suffer in history.

Amillennialism is sometimes associated with Idealism as both teach a symbolic interpretation of many of the prophecies of the Bible and especially the Book of Revelation.     [DTW Note:   Idealism - the tendency to represent things in their ideal forms, rather than as they are.]

Medieval and Reformation periods

Amillennialism gained ground after Christianity became a legal religion. It was systematised by St. Augustine in the fourth century, and this systematisation carried amillennialism over as the dominant eschatology of the Medieval and Reformation periods. Augustine was originally a premillennialist, but he retracted that view, claiming the doctrine was carnal.

Amillennialism was the dominant view of the Protestant Reformers. The Lutheran Church formally rejected chiliasm in the The Augsburg Confession

“Art. XVII., condemns the Anabaptists and others ’who now scatter Jewish opinions that, before the resurrection of the dead, the godly shall occupy the kingdom of the world, the wicked being everywhere suppressed.’”

Likewise, the Swiss Reformer, Heinrich Bullinger wrote up the Second Helvetic Confession which reads

We also reject the Jewish dream of a millennium, or golden age on earth, before the last judgement.”

John Calvin wrote in Institutes that chiliasm is a “fiction” that is “too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation.” He interpreted the thousand year period of Revelation 20 non-literally, applying it to the “various disturbances that awaited the church, while still toiling on earth.”

chil·i·asm -  the belief that Jesus Christ will return to earth in visible form (after the Tribulation) and establish a kingdom too last 1000 years.

Modern times

Amillennialism has been widely held in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches as well as in the Roman Catholic Church, which generally follows Augustine on this point and which has deemed that pre-millennialism “cannot safely be taught.

Amillennialism is also common among “mainline” Protestant denominations such as the Lutheran, Reformed, Disciples of Christ, and Anglican churches, and even has a significant following amongst Evangelical Christian denominations.

Source:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism

—————–

Comparison between Amillennialism and Dominionist Theology

  • The belief in Amillennialism or Preterism also called Victorious eschatology is part and parcel of Dominionist Theology.

Amillennialists believes that we are living in the millennial era and Jesus reigns spiritually from heaven.   The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D means that all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled – especially the Book of Revelation.

Amillennialists can claim the earth and must dominate by instilling Christian principles and a moral code which will create a Christian society so that Jesus can manifest His presence one day and judge the wicked.

Dominionists can claim the earth and must dominate by instilling Christian principles and a moral code which will create a Christian society so that Jesus can manifest His presence and rule the world.

Amillennialism teaches that the Church is now Israel because natural Israel has been cut off from God.

Dominionism teaches that the Church is now Israel because natural Israel has been cut off from God.  Another word for Dominion Theology is Replacement Theology that teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel.  The many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel.  All promises Abraham made to Israel now belong to the Church.

Martin Luther, like the Catholics, did not hold that the book of Revelation should be among the Canonical books.

C. Peter Wagner (Head Apostle in the New Apostolic Reformation), has openly declared that he is Amillennial/Preterist.

Victorious eschatology fits dominion theology like a hand in a glove. Eberle and Trench say, “Before Jesus returns, the Church will rise in glory, unity, and maturity. The Kingdom of God will grow and advance until it fills the Earth.”

Victorious eschatology makes a convincing argument that the biblical prophecies concerning the “last days” or the “end times” were literally fulfilled at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The end times marked the ending of the old covenant and the beginning of the new covenant. Jesus literally will return to the earth in the future (see Matthew 24:36-25:46), but none of the signs of Matthew 24:4-34 are expected to precede His return, because they have already occurred. This is known by professional theologians as the Partial Preterist view of eschatology, and it is the view with which I personally identify.”  –  DOMINION! How Kingdom Action Can Change the World  p. 61

Dominionism can be traced back to Ambrose of Milan (338-397), who influenced St Augustine, (354-430).

Ambrose believed that the church should exert political authority over the state so that the courts and government would reflect the morality and ethics teachings of the church.

Martin Luther (1483-1546) and John Calvin (1509-1564) were ardent students of St Augustine’s theology.

In 1540 John Calvin set about creating a Genevan Society.

John Calvin’s plan was to incorporate the church into government by restructuring municipal government so that clergy would be involved in municipal decisions, particularly in disciplining the populace.

Dominionists are using a strategy called the ‘7 Mountains’ strategy where they are taking over top positions through a mass ‘Christian’ movement to infiltrate business, government, media, arts, education, family and religion.

Calvin imposed a hierarchy on the Genevan Society

Dominionists are doing the same through the 5 fold ministry concept (Ephesians 4:11).  The Apostles being at the top of the hierarchy who will govern the world.

Calvin began a series of statute reforms to impose a strict and uncompromising moral code on the city

Angus Buchan, Elza Meyer, Graham Power, Dion Forster, Stephen Johnson, Bennie Mostert with their programs such as Turn2God, Mighy Men Conference and Global Day of Prayer, are beginning to promote a strict moral and ethical code over the people of South Africa under the name of “Unashamedly Ethical, which I am sure will become a society soon enough.

The Genevan Society is actually a small scale model of what the Dominionists are currently doing to the whole world, and very successfully I might add.

Calvin’s idea was to enforce a new Christian moral code on the Geneva City.

Dominionists are currently doing the exact same.  They are enforcing an ethical code on mankind based on morals, values and principles,

A great emphasis is placed on man’s efforts, good works and the law - the right wing Christian calls it Revival, the left wing Religious calls its social transformation – revival of socialism.

Preterism and Dominionism originated from Roman Catholicism – The Preteristic Catholic church gives us the oldest Dominion Theology model.

Amillennialists believe that there will be no rapture.

Dominionists believe there will not be a rapture either.

Dominion Theology encompasses a special group of believers who will take control of the world.

These ‘special’ people are known as covenant people or overcomers (better known as ‘Joel’s Army’)

These chosen Dominionists see themselves as being elected/chosen by God to bring the world under the submission of the Church.

Calvinism believes in the same thing:  Unconditional Election or Predestination

In order for Dominionists to create their new Christian world, the people must be either coerced or lied too, into believing in this false Christianity.  Over time if you have not joined the movement you will be declared wicked and punished or purged from society

Calvinism believes in the same thing:   Total Hereditary Depravity

Amillennialists believe that there will be no anti-Christ in the future because he already showed himself in 70 A.D. which resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem - Satan is currently bound.  Therefore Revelation prophecy has already been fulfilled.

Amillennialists believe there is no coming tribulation as this too took place in 70 A.D.

[DTW note:  This is a very scary thought because if the anti-Christ has already been done and dusted back in 70 A.D then the current world should only expect Jesus Christ to return.  The world does not need to worry about an anti-Christ at all.  This is however completely false as masses of people will end up accepting the false Christ as being Jesus Christ the Son of God.]

The only project for Amillennialists/Dominionists is to reclaim the world for their Christ by preaching a gospel (does not matter what gospel as long as it mentions ‘Christ’).

And in doing so they will create a society of  people with similar interests, purposes, or passions that will dominate the world in order to create the Kingdom of God, a Heaven on Earth so that The Christ will return.  This is also called ‘God’s Plan or God’s Dream’.

Calvinism, Dominionism, Kingdom Now teaching, Replacement Theology, Latter Rain Manifest Sons of God teaching, Word of Faith, New Apostolic Reformation, Emerging Church Movement, Transformation, Reformation, etc, etc.  is all one and the same doctrine…

All these doctrines are can be classified under different things:

  • different names,
  • different terminology
  • different definitions
  • different interpretations of scripture
  • different eschatology
  • different theology
  • different ways of receiving the false spirit

The entire point is to make you think they are completely different doctrines when in fact they are all the same and each one of these movements will cause you to die spiritually if you don’t get out – they will ALL lead you back to Rome and to hell.

    

pixel Paul Washer   Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation

132 comments to Paul Washer – Practice the Presence: Silence and Meditation

  • Burning Lamp

    This is an excellent article except for this statement:

    [Edited: I fixed that part...removed...I will replace it at a later stage with more conclusive evidence, thanks Buring Lamp]

  • cecilia

    thanks for this eye-opener D! working through it now! the LORD bless you!

  • Valerie

    Thanks for posting this article. I look forward to reading the comments of others.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Valerie

    Thanks ;)

    >> I look forward to reading the comments of others.

    Yes me too. Although I am not so sure I am looking forward to the comments though. Can one look backwards instead? HA HA. Yeah bad bad joke.

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Thank you Debs for this, I eco Cecilia’s words.

  • Jenn

    FAMOUS RAPTURE WATCHERS – Addendum

    by Dave MacPherson

    (The statements in my “Famous Rapture Watchers” web article appeared in my 1983 book “The Great Rapture Hoax” and quoted only past leaders. The following names include other leaders who were quoted in that original printing.)

    Oswald J. Smith: “…I am absolutely convinced that there will be no rapture before the Tribulation, but that the Church will undoubtedly be called upon to face the Antichrist…” (Tribulation or Rapture – Which?, p. 2).

    Paul B. Smith: “You are perfectly free to quote me as believing rather emphatically in the post-tribulation teaching of the Bible” (letter dated June 9, 1976).

    S. I. McMillen: “…Christians will suffer in the Great Tribulation” (Discern These Times, p. 55).

    Norman F. Douty: “…all of the evidence of history runs one way – in favor of Post-tribulationism” (Has Christ’s Return Two Stages?, p. 113).

    Leonard Ravenhill: “There is a cowardly Christianity which…still comforts its fainting heart with the hope that there will be a rapture – perhaps today – to catch us away from coming tribulation” (Sodom Had No Bible, p. 94).

    William Hendriksen: “…the one and only second coming of Christ to judgment” (Israel in Prophecy, p. 29).

    Loraine Boettner: “Hence we conclude that nowhere in Scripture does it teach a secret or pre-tribulation Rapture” (The Millennium, p. 168).

    J. Sidlow Baxter: “…believers of the last days (there is only one small part of the total Church on earth at any given moment) will be on earth during the so-called ‘Great Tribulation’ ” (Explore the Book, Vol. 6, p. 345).

    Merrill C. Tenney: “There is no convincing reason why the seer’s being ‘in the Spirit’ and being called into heaven [Revelation 4:1-2] typifies the rapture of the church…” (Interpreting Revelation, p. 141).

    James R. Graham: “…there is not a line of the N.T. that declares a pre-tribulation rapture, so its advocates are compelled to read it into certain indeterminate texts…” (Watchman, What of the Night?, p. 79).

    Ralph Earle: “The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture seems first to have been emphasized widely about 100 years ago by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren” (Behold, I Come, p. 74).

    Clarence B. Bass: “…I most strongly believe dispensationalism to be a departure from the historic faith…” (Backgrounds to Dispensationalism, p. 155).

    William C. Thomas: “The return of Jesus Christ, described by parousia, revelation, and epiphany, is one single, glorious, triumphant event for which we all wait with great eagerness!” (The Blessed Hope in the Thessalonian Epistles of Paul, p. 42).

    Harold J. Ockenga: “No exegetical justification exists for the arbitrary separation of the ‘coming of Christ’ and the ‘day of the Lord.’ It is one ‘day of the Lord Jesus Christ’ ” (Christian Life, February, 1955).

    Duane Edward Spencer: “Paul makes it very clear that the Church will pass through the Great Tribulation” (“Rapture-Tribulation” cassette).

    J. C. Maris: “Nowhere the Bible teaches that the Church of Jesus Christ is heading for world dominion. On the contrary – there will be no place for her, save in ‘the wilderness,’ where God will take care of her (Rev. 12:13-17)” (I.C.C.C. leaflet “The Danger of the Ecumenical Movement,” p. 2).

    F. F. Bruce: “To meet the Lord [I Thessalonians 4:17]…on the final stage of…[Christ's] journey…to the earth…” (New Bible Commentary: Revised, p. 1159).

    G. Christian Weiss: “Some people say that this ['gospel of the kingdom' in Matthew 24:14] is not the gospel of grace but is a special aspect of the gospel to be preached some time in the future. But there is nothing in the context to indicate this” (“Back to the Bible” broadcast, February 9, 1976).

    Pat Brooks: “Soon we, in the Body of Christ, will be confronted by millions of people disillusioned by such false teaching [Pre-Tribism]” (Hear, O Israel, p. 186).

    Herman Hoeksema: “…the time of Antichrist, when days so terrible are still to arrive for the church…” (Behold, He Cometh!, p. 131).

    Ray Summers: “Because they [Philadelphia] have been faithful, he promises his sustaining grace in the tribulation…” (Worthy Is the Lamb, p. 123).

    George E. Ladd: “[Pretribulationism] may be guilty of the positive danger of leaving the Church unprepared for tribulation when Antichrist appears…” (The Blessed Hope, p. 164).

    Peter Beyerhaus: “The Christian Church on earth [will face] the final, almost superhuman test of being confronted with the apocalyptical temptation by Antichrist” (Christianity Today, April 13, 1973).

    Leon Morris: “The early Christians…looked for the Christ to come as Judge” (Apocalyptic, p. 84).

    Dale Moody: “There is not a passage in the New Testament to support Scofield. The call to John to ‘come up hither’ has reference to mystical ecstasy, not to a pretribulation rapture” (Spirit of the Living God, p. 203).

    John R. W. Stott: “He would not spare them from the suffering [Revelation 3:10]; but He would uphold them in it” (What Christ Thinks of the Church, p. 104).

    G. R. Beasley-Murray: “…the woman, i.e., the Church…flees for refuge into the wilderness [Revelation 12:14]…” (The New Bible Commentary, p. 1184).

    Bernard L. Ramm: “…as the Church moves to meet her Lord at the parousia world history is also moving to meet its Judge at the same parousia” (Leo Eddleman’s Last Things, p. 41).

    J. Barton Payne: “…the twentieth century has indeed witnessed a progressively rising revolt against pre-tribulationism” (The Imminent Appearing of Christ, p. 38).

    Robert H. Gundry: “Divine wrath does not blanket the entire seventieth week…but concentrates at the close” (The Church and the Tribulation, p. 63).

    C. S. Lovett: “Frankly I favor a post-trib rapture…I no longer teach Christians that they will NOT have to go through the tribulation” (PC, January, 1974).

    Walter R. Martin: “Walter Martin finally said…’Yes, I’m a post-trib’ ” (Lovett’s PC, December, 1976).

    Jay Adams: “Today’s trend is…from pre- to posttribulationism” (The Time Is at Hand, p. 2).

    Jim McKeever: “Nowhere do the Scriptures say that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation” (Christians Will Go Through the Tribulation, p. 55).

    Arthur Katz: “I think it fair to tell you that I do not subscribe to the happy and convenient theology which says that God’s people are going to be raptured and lifted up when a time of tribulation and trial comes” (Reality, p. 8).

    Billy Graham: “Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His Church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known” (Sam Shoemaker’s Under New Management, p. 72).

    W. J. Grier: “The Scofield Bible makes a rather desperate effort…it tries to get in the ‘rapture’ of the saints before the appearing of Antichrist” (The Momentous Event, p. 58).

    Pat Robertson: “Jesus Christ is going to come back to earth again to deliver Israel and at the same time to rapture His Church; it’s going to be one moment, but it’s going to be a glorious time” (“700 Club” telecast, May 14, 1975).

    Ben Kinchlow: “Any wrath [during the Tribulation] that comes upon us – any difficulty – will not be induced by God, but it’ll be like the people are saying, ‘The cause of our problems are those Christians in our midst; we need to get rid of them’ ” (“700 Club” telecast, August 28, 1979).

    Daniel P. Fuller: “It is thus concluded that Dispensationalism fails to pass the test of an adequate system of Biblical Interpretation” (The Hermeneutics of Dispensationalism, p. 369).

    Corrie ten Boom: “The Bible prophesies that the time will come when we cannot buy or sell, unless we bear the sign of the Antichrist…” (Tramp for the Lord, p. 187).

    Francis Nigel Lee (eleven earned doctorates!): “Dave MacPherson, in his various books, has made a major contribution toward vindicating Historic Christian Eschatology. The 1830 innovations of the disturbed Margaret Macdonald documented by MacPherson – in part or in whole – immediately spread to Edward Irving and his followers, then to J. N. Darby and Plymouth Brethrenism, and were later popularized by the dispensationalistic Scofield Reference Bible, by Classic Pentecostalism, and by latter-day pretribulationists like J. F. Walvoord and Hal Lindsey.”

    (In light of II Tim. 3:14 which says that we can’t know too much about Bible teachers (Dave MacVersion), I invite you to read my article “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” which can be found on the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site. For the most accurate account of pretribulation rapture history to be found anywhere, obtain my highly endorsed and massively documented book “The Rapture Plot” via online stores such as Armageddon Books. BTW, all of my royalties have always gone to a nonprofit group which has never paid salary to anyone.)
    (Recent News: For a rare look at pretribism’s earliest document, Google “Miss Macdonald’s Vision Located” and “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines” – both featured on Joe Ortiz’s “End Times Passover” blog of Mar. 9 & Mar. 27.)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jenn

    Just checking here. Are you against pre-trib? Sorry it’s early in the morning and I am still half asleep.

  • Valerie

    Deborah,

    Yes, is looks like Jenn is opposed to pre-trib.

    All I can say is that if you don’t want to go, that can be arranged. Enoch and Elijah were taken up without dying as a special blessing because they walked closely with the Lord.

    I can’t be sure, but those who would be raptured might be those who are walking closely with their Lord, not just all Christians. That is why in the parable of the 10 virgins there are five wise and five foolish. Five were ready and five weren’t, but they were all looking for the return of the Lord.

    Just some thoughts that I had.

  • Robbie

    Dave Mcpherson
    .. use to be in the top ten most wanted false teachers

    INVENTOR OF FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE HISTORY

    Dave MacPherson is an individual who loves to hate pretribulationism. In fact, he has thought up new ways to express his distain for pretribulationism by fabricating a false history of the pre-trib rapture. For the last thirty-plus years, MacPherson has dedicated his life to full time rapture hating in an attempt to participate in anything that he believes will obstruct its spread.. http://www.raptureready.com/who/Dave_MacPherson.html

    Pat And Billy I will not even discuss… For the rest… Report coming soon… only for Jenn

  • I’m sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with this post. I watched the full length video 1:20 mins long. I am not here to defend Paul Washer but I will defend the truth. It is true in the Bible and it is true in most sermons, you can’t take words out of context and say “aha, that’s a buzz word” Yes, in the video Paul Washer does say some of the so called “buzz words” that other false teachers and false doctrines have used in the past and present. But if you watched the whole video he even touches on that subject. “Just because a false religion or a false teacher uses certain terms. We are not to run so far away from it that we run past the truth.” (paraphrase).

    If you watched the whole video and took his words in the context of the message. I don’t even see how it is possible that you could come away with the thought that he is preaching “Contemplative thought” in the sense that false religions do. The Bible even talks about “meditating on the word” It is not referring to eastern mysticism. The Bible and Paul Washer in that video were referring to being close to God in prayer. praying your prayers and praising his name but also thinking about his word constantly and while in prayer, make time to just sit and be quiet before the Lord so that he can talk to you.

    Our society with all of it’s false religion’s has made us “gun shy” so to speak about certain terms and how we should or shouldn’t use them. It is Biblical to meditate on God’s word, not meditation like eastern cults but true uninterrupted thought about God and his word.

    BIC

    Rocco T

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Rocco

    Your gravatar is a pentagram. I think you should ‘meditate’ on changing it.

    Please go and study up on contemplative spirituality, will take you a few weeks. Once you have understood it in it’s entirety, come back and we can talk again.

  • PS

    Rocco,

    As far as the word meditate, consider the following passages. Look up Meditate in your concordance and see what you get…

    Gen 24:63 And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels [were] coming.

    Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

    Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

    Psa 63:6 When I remember thee upon my bed, [and] meditate on thee in the [night] watches.

    Psa 77:12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.

    Psa 119:15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

    Psa 119:23 Princes also did sit [and] speak against me: [but] thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.

    Psa 119:48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

    Psa 119:78 Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: [but] I will meditate in thy precepts.

    Psa 119:148 Mine eyes prevent the [night] watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

    Psa 143:5 I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands.

    Isa 33:18 Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where [is] the scribe? where [is] the receiver? where [is] he that counted the towers?

    1Ti 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

    H1897 הָגָה hagah hä·gä’ meditate, mourn, speak, imagine, study, mutter, utter, roaring, sore, talk

    H7742 matches the Hebrew שוח (suwach).(meditate*) AND H7742 (Gen. 24:63).

    H7878 matches the Hebrew שִׂיחַ (siyach), which occurs 20 times in 20 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

    I meditate on scripture, how else are you to memorize it? I talk to God out loud, coming and going, preach to myself, etc. And, I can assure you, none of it is contemplative mysticism.

    Deb, Pride goes before destruction. There are no puffed out chests in heaven. Nobody struts into the kingdom of God. Matt 5:3 – Blessed are the poor in spirit. Meditate on this verse. Tape it to your monitor. Repeat it often. Beseech the Spirit to illuminate this truth to you.

    Be encouraged Rocco,

    PS

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    PS

    I meditate on scripture, how else are you to memorize it? I talk to God out loud, coming and going, preach to myself, etc. And, I can assure you, none of it is contemplative mysticism.

    Deb, Pride goes before destruction. There are no puffed out chests in heaven. Nobody struts into the kingdom of God. Matt 5:3 – Blessed are the poor in spirit. Meditate on this verse. Tape it to your monitor. Repeat it often. Beseech the Spirit to illuminate this truth to you.

    You contradict yourself. First you say you do not do comtemplative mysticism and then say the following: “Blessed are the poor in spirit. Meditate on this verse. Tape it to your monitor. Repeat it often. Beseech the Spirit to illuminate this truth to you”

    Here is my answer to you

    Matthew 6:7 “But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

    1 Kings 18:26 “Then they took the ox which was given them and they prepared it and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon saying, “O Baal, answer us.” But there was no voice and no one answered. And they leaped about the altar which they made”

  • Amanda

    Practicing the Presence of God
    Ps Leon du Preez
    Sunday, 25 April 2010 PM Service

  • Elmarie A

    Amanda

    Hmmmm what can I say this is the new generation raising the next generation. This is not good. and now I will do the carpet roll thingie……

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Is that the one where you just lie on your back and stare at the ceiling? lol

  • Elmarie A

    Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Yes and I need to add some new ones as Olak is getting bored with it lol lol

    I had an idea how about an article about the new generation Warriors and how they are raising the next generation Warriors. Any way just an idea. Something like this could heed warnings to parents and young people. Ldp could be a good subject and example to use.There is plenty of material on those websites.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elmarie

    Totally, there are hundreds of these ‘young’ pastors out there who are leading youth astray.

  • Alan Heron

    Hi All,
    Two things;
    Firstly; Paul Washer has rescinded his support for BG in recent years (The Youth conference video was filmed in 2002).

    Secondly; On being asked directly about the apparent support for Contemplative Prayer, the Heartcry office replied to me the following:-

    “Alan, thank you for your email, I am always glad to begin a dialog with brothers and sisters in the Lord.

    Please if you would like to contact to talk about this in detail with me the best way would be Skype
    My username is bonny.joy – I would be pleased to talk to you about your email.

    In short Paul does not advocate contemplative prayer.

    I apologize that I can not go into this in great detail over email but I would be please to correspond with you.

    ~ Jon Green”

    Now, I know that others who definitely DO advocate CP (e.g.;Focus on the Family), also deny that they do, but that tactic only works for a millisecond with those who are determined to
    know the truth, so it shouldn’t be too hard to work out what’s what.
    I’ll pass on whatever transpires from conversations with Jon Green to this blog.
    Love & blessings in Jesus’ name,
    Alan.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Alan

    Cool. I will add to my article that Paul Washer no longer supports Billy Graham. [EDITED: I have added this]

    As for the Contemplative thing. Well…. he sure manages to pick the right words that sound exactly like the contemplatives sound. All this ‘new language’ was never around before so why the change.

    But then again I suppose this is what happens when one thinks St Augustine was not a catholic. If Augustine was around today and he said jump they would all shout. ‘How high?’

    Keep up posted

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Alan

    Ask him if he thinks John Piper is still ok?
    And if he agrees that the Blood of Jesus Christ is just ‘liquid’ as per what John MacArthur thinks.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Alan

    >> I apologize that I can not go into this in great detail over email but I would be please to correspond with you.

    Wonder why they can’t just go into detail in email. What’s the secret? Takes more time to correspond with you in person than to just send out a mass email stating in detail that they do no promote contemplative spirituality.

  • Alan Heron

    Deborah

    Yeah, I agree. I’d say from what I have read and heard of Paul Washer, that there’s probably a hierarchy in place, so that any comments must be submitted to a review before they can be posted, or emailed, but then again, I sometimes prefer to at HEAR the person I’m conversing with, as the tone of voice makes communication easier. Also, clarification of a point in a phone conversation is immediately available, whereas with emails, etc, while a person may be writing a response to a question, the asker has already jumped ahead and added another email, leading off on a different tack, so that the answer becomes a point of confusion, rather than clarifying something.

    Anyway, let’s shake the tree and see what falls out shall we? ;-)
    We are either giving them a chance to clear up a misunderstanding, or we are giving them a chance to confirm that they are in fact walking a different path. Or, just possibly, we may have an opportunity to get them to rethink some things.
    Having heard Paul Washer preach, I find it puzzling that he is calvinist in his doctrine. What is the point of such impassioned preaching, if the issue is already decided? Doesn’t make sense. However, I have come across many people throughout my life, who will state quite forcefully their belief on a particular subject and yet be just as forceful on another subject and not see that they are mutually exclusive. I had a preacher just recently give a great sermon on Matthew 7. The whole chapter. He was brilliant in his exegesis and exposition. He spoke about how important it is to remember that it’s not the things people do in Jesus’ name that make them disciples of Him, but that it’s their relationship to him as Lord that’s the test. It was a very good sermon and very timely.

    Then he went on to talk about a person who had an amazingly disproportionate effect on Presidents, Prime Ministers, and other world leaders because, as he put it, this person carried the Holy Spirit in them and that was what commanded the respect of all these dignitaries. I began to wonder where he was going at this point, because a person filled with the Holy Spirit is more likely to have the opposite effect on sinful world leaders according to how I read the Bible. I was stunned when he said that he was talking about Mother Theresa! Then he told about she MUST have been filled with the Holy Spirit, because look at all the things she did in the name of Christ! The very thing he had been saying we should be careful of doing, he did! As an example of how slippery deception is, I think it is without peer in my experience.
    After the service, I spoke to my Pastor about the issue and he graciously accepted my words and acknowledged the error. I thank God for the whole episode, because it serves as an even greater warning of the wiles of the devil and how careful we must always be.
    God grant that Paul Washer and those at Heartcry will be as open to correction.

  • Amanda

    In his sermon, Pastor Leon explains in detail to the youth how to practice the presence of God. He also says at around the 18 min mark:

    But there is a thing called relationship covenant, which Pastor Marc spoke about a week or two ago, okay, where we can get into our room, where we can enter into that intimacy, that intimate place, that secret place of the most high God. Right there is the place where you will have visions and dreams and trances. Right there is the place where you will see your future.

    He quotes Joel 2:28. Then:

    You guys know the Scripture, okay? But the language of the Holy Spirit is visions and dreams. That is the language of the Holy Spirit. Yes, we pray in the spirit also, but the language of the Holy Spirit is through visions and dreams and trances. And when we get into that secret place, it is not just for the great preachers. We can spend time in that secret place with God and we can see visions. We can have dreams and God can come and speak to us with an audible voice. The Holy Spirit speaks. That is very clear in the Bible. Amen? Those experiences are available for every single one of us.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Alan

    Oh yes, you know how many people think Mother Theresa was Christian? Can’t even give a figure.

    And yes, when someone has the Holy Spirit in them there is absolutely the opposite effect. So when you see the ‘love’ know there is something not right.

    And I agree personal conversation does indeed clear up many issues and quickly. I had one of those once lol. But it becomes a ‘your word vs. their word’ which helps no one else especially in what we are trying to do here. It’s funny I don’t recall Paul having a panel to have a discussion on what to write in their letters ;) because he spoke the truth all the time.

  • Deb,

    I did not contradict myself. I admit it. I memorize scripture! I speak it! And, I am advising you to read the words of Christ Himself and think long and hard on Matt. 5:3. Marinate your heart with that verse. Repeating scripture so that it becomes more of a reality in your life is not babbling.

    You completely failed to deal with the 13 pasages of scripture I posted. You really do not need to go further than Psa. 1:2. “…in his law doth he MEDIATE day and night.” Are you going to deal with the text or is this when you really go into ad hominem attack mode?

    H1897 – mutter, utter, speak, imagine……………..

    PS

  • Elmarie A

    Amanda

    Thanks my thoughts on this one:

    Right there is the place where you will have visions and dreams and trances. Right there is the place where you will see your future.

    Where in the Scripture does it say one will see the future?
    The word trance he will back up from the book of Acts i think and one will find it is miss used/understood. Acts 10:10, Acts 11:5, Acts 22:17
    Leon seem to teach Meditation and sound like Abel Pienaar.

    Oh I can see so much who his learning school Masters was and it does not look good with the likes of Benny Hinn , Manasseh Jordan, Bill Johnson, Mark Driscoll , Josh Radford, Rick Warren, Kim Clement ,Rodney Howard-Browne, Steve Hill ,Nardus Nell, Max Lucado, Morris Cerullo, These are his Twitters he follows. http://twitter.com/leondupreez/following

    There is much more to be said.

  • Amanda

    South African youths know all about meditatio. And lectio and oratio and contemplatio. And renewing the mind through meditatio. And silence and walking the labyrinth and the 14 stations, alternative worship services and now trancing. They have been taught that the Gospel is “love your neighbour” and that it is the church’s duty to change the world.

  • Amanda

    Pastor Leon at about min 36:

    How do I spend time with God? Very easy. You spend time with Him. You go into your room. You put on praise and worship and you start praising, and this is even for adults, because this thing never changes. You put on praise and worship and you start praising in your room. Then you start worshiping Him. And here by the fourth song, you’re worshiping, the fifth song, your are worshiping and all of a sudden you feel something changes in your room. And then you carry on and you carry on and you carry on and, maybe by the sixth, seventh song, this is just me, this is how I do it. And I feel the presence of God get stronger. Then I start praying and then by your first hour, second hour, fifth hour, God just gets stronger and stronger and stronger. And then, all of a sudden you get a vision about someone or something or about you and about your life and about the future that God has for you. And then you get closer. You don’t want to leave that place. You just want to carry on praying and praying. And that’s how we build a relationship with Him. Very simple. Amen?

    Phew!

  • Elmarie A

    And after changing the world to suit them it becomes :

    Going Beyond Only Discovering The Kingdom To Possessing The Kingdom

    Many of us have discovered the Kingdom. We have seen healings, miracles, signs and wonders. We have seen the demonic manifest and being cast out and we have seen 100’s upon thousands of souls saved, but there is one thing we are missing- Very few of us are operating in this realm on a daily basis.

    There is a big difference between discovering the Kingdom and possessing the Kingdom. Many of us have discovered the Kingdom, but we are not possessing it. How do I come to the place of possessing it?

    Matt 13:44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for the joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.”

    Please take note of the red highlighted key words.

    The Kingdom is hidden and many of us have found it! But we are not yet possessing it. The man in this parable had joy over it. When last did we have joy over the Kingdom and the things of God and the spirit?

    I like to ask the following question to Christians: Do you have more joy over your friend getting saved or getting a brand new car for free?

    When we have joy for the things of God and getting back our first love then we will come to the place of applying the next step. The verse carried on and said “…he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.” … Unless we give everything we have for Him, we cannot possess the Kingdom. Unless we surrender everything, we cannot possess the Kingdom. Please take note that we cannot surrender our whole lives to Him unless we have, and get back our joy for the Kingdom and the things of God; unless we return to our first love!

    I believe that God wants to take us further than mere discovering the Kingdom, He wants to take us to a place of possessing the Kingdom! I believe that is the next phase for us as the body of Christ! I can see that the door has opened in the spirit, in order for us to step through it!

    Join me as we press in, pushing forward to possess and obtain that which God has for every single one of us!

    Blessings and Much Love,

    Leon du Preez
    http://leondupreez.com/?page_id=79

  • Elmarie A

    Amanda
    “Pastor Leon at about min 36:”

    Phew en yikes !!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Phil

    I’ve had this discussion before with someone that went on for days. The entire conversation is on this blog somewhere… you can search for it. Needless to say I won the debate.

  • Phil

    You got nothing and you won nothing Debbie…and you know it. But, you are the perfect Jezebel voice for this rebellious and apostate house called doomed Amerika!

  • Burning Lamp

    That’s a delayed reaction if I ever saw one…..

  • Elmarie A

    Phil

    Who is Debbie ? There is no Debbie that commented on this thread? Phil who you talking about?

    If you are talking to Deborah how can you call some one Jezebel if you don’t know them? That seems pretty disrespectful you know?

    What is this you say all about? : You got nothing and you won nothing Debbie…and you know it

    No one knows what we have in our hearts but God and God alone.

    May I be bold and tell you one can loose one’s sole and go to hell if you don’t heed to warnings.We are to warn and blow the trumpet about apostate teachers and churches.

    The thing then is loose your sole and Loose the race or
    Then run the race like an athlete and win and the reward is a crown of eternal blessedness. But one cannot run a race with out training. There is only two choices Phil Heaven or hell. What is your choice?

    1 Corinthians 9:23-25 (Amplified Bible)

    23 And I do this for the sake of the good news (the Gospel), in order that I may become a participator in it and share in its [blessings along with you].

    24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but [only] one receives the prize? So run [your race] that you may lay hold [of the prize] and make it yours.

    25 Now every athlete who goes into training conducts himself temperately and restricts himself in all things. They do it to win a wreath that will soon wither, but we [do it to receive a crown of eternal blessedness] that cannot wither.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Phil

    You got nothing and you won nothing Debbie…and you know it. But, you are the perfect Jezebel voice for this rebellious and apostate house called doomed Amerika!

    Hey Baal.

    1) If you can’t come up with a decent reply, which you never will, then get behind me,
    2) I am from South Africa, buy an Atlas,
    3) Paul Washer is the one who needs to get his life in order, and his followers too like you it seems.

  • louise

    Phil, if you are a reborn Christian I would ask that you walk softly when you call woman names even though its a name as Jezebel. Why oh why can we Christians not stop this fighting. Elmarie has done great work here and its very time consuming. Its great to contend for the faith but name calling shows me that your heart is not right. Ask God to help you and show you the truth. That way instead of name calling you could in love gently show her your truth. I am sure you have much to share with others. And if she does not see it GOD will show her.
    I need to tell u all a joke.
    A Sunday school teacher asks,tell me honestly Johhny do you say prayers before eating? No Sir, I dont have to as my mommy is a good cook. Cute.

  • Patrick Ölund

    Any advancement of the kingdom of Christ into the dominion of the devil will be met with warfare…..

    He is also speaking about spiritual warfare! Do you believe there are any true Christians except for you yourself?

  • Elmarie A

    Patrick Ölund

    He is also speaking about spiritual warfare! Do you believe there are any true Christians except for you yourself?

    We cannot say who are true Christians as only God knows each one’s heart.

    Who is speaking about spiritual warfare? I’m afraid I don’t get your statement. Please shed some light.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Patrick

    Any advancement of the kingdom of Christ into the dominion of the devil will be met with warfare…..

    Yes, just like Hindu Mystics such as Sadhu Singh are christian as well as per your comment here http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2009/07/09/sadhu-sundar-singh-hindu-mystic-in-sheeps-clothing/#comment-15379

    Regarding the warfare part. Go buy yourself that xbox game that comes with night-vision goggles and get rid of all that aggression.

  • KOBUS HATTINGH

    With all respect, the more articles I read on here, the more I am starting to wonder can this women possibly a Christian at all? It seems like this site is purely a launching site to attack other Pastors/Preachers? Many of the people who’s names are being drugged through the mud, has brought many many people on a closer walk with God whether you believe it or not. There seems to be a HOLIER THAN THOU attitude on here with WE ARE RIGHT and the rest are all going to Hell! The articles does not warn one about any of these people, it actually comes across as trying to destroy a persons reputation. You have places some articles on here before and when you clearly was corrected on your viewpoints it seems like your response is just aaaaah so what? I think you really ought to think about what other people, who truly have or try to have a closer walk with Jesus would view many of the comments made on here as I most certainly do not recognize the fruits of the Spirit that the Bible tells us about. Regards. Kobus

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kobus

    Shame. Sorry you feel that way. And of course you wont recognise the fruit of the Holy Spirit on this website because you don’t read your Bible and willingly accept false teaching. Regards Deborah

  • KOBUS HATTINGH

    Thank you very much for this response. This is a confirmation as to the spirit that you do have in you and it clearly is not of Christ.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Kobus

    Ditto

  • Elmarie A

    KOBUS HATTINGH

    You need to read this:

    CHRISTIANS ARE MIXED UP – IN MYSTICISM

    PART 1 of 2
    By Marsha West
    September 15, 2007

    More and more of those who profess Christ are “experiencing God” in ways that lands them smack dab in the middle of the New Age movement. It’s not like they haven’t been warned about experimenting with mysticism. They’ve been warned plenty, yet they totally disregard wise counsel. So if you’re among the sheep who have gone astray, consider the Bible’s wise counsel: “It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him” (Deut 13:4).

    I must admit I’m mystified (pun intended) as to why so many Christians are choosing to leave the narrow road Jesus spoke of and follow Oprah down the broad road that leads to destruction. What’s up with that?

    The Bible says, “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord,” not Oprah!

    Reading God’s Word to know Him and His ways just doesn’t cut it for some so-called Christians, which is why a number of them are venturing into the astral plane hoping to connect with God on a “deeper level beyond your thinking.” Even though Scripture is opposed to any form of mysticism (2 Chronicles 33:6), many Christians are joining “Christian yoga” classes and praising the health benefits — even getting their kids involved. Sly markeeters sell Christians on yoga’s good mind/body health benefits (Deepak Chopra, anyone?), plus they say it will help you to “apprehend God.” As an extra-added bonus you can tone those flabby abs!

    There’s big bucks to be made from yoga. In America it’s a $30 billion-a-year business. And speaking of big bucks, McDonald’s is masterful at marketing their products to consumers. When your run of the mill hamburger is promoted as the Big-Tasty® the gullible public, mouths watering, head straight to the golden arches! The Big-Tasty® sure tastes good, but is it good for you? The burger contains 8 grams of saturated fat, 70 grams of cholesterol, and 500 calories per serving. Sounds like a heart attack waiting to happen.

    Christians are being lured into “Christian yoga” by promises of good health. Sure, it’s a tad New Age, but what’s the big deal? I mean, everyone’s doin’ it, so it’s a good thing…right? Does that kinnd of logic not make your blood boil?

    Affixing a new handle to an ancient Hindu practice may make it palatable for the Christian consumer, but it doesn’t change the fact that offering yoga in a Christian setting is unacceptable. You cannot separate yoga from the Hindu religious system. As I said in my commentary, Christian Yoga? C’mon!, “Classical yoga is intended to put one into an altered state of consciousness. Believers who think they’re ‘just exercising’ are being swept into a counterfeit religion.”

    Eastern mysticism leads to destruction. But that doesn’t stop some Christians from involving themselves in “kything prayer” (KP), which is another unbiblical kind of prayer and meditation. This bizarre prayer practice will astound even the most well informed followers of Jesus Christ. One way to engage in KP is the Enneagram, which is a heresy of the first order. I’ll get to “kything” in a moment. But first a bit about “contemplative prayer” AKA “centering prayer.” For centuries Catholic mystics have engaged in contemplative prayer. Today Catholics and Protestants alike practice CP. Carmelite nun and Spanish mystic, St. Teresa of — vila, “a very much-loved contemplative Catholic saint” spent hours in meditation, which she called the “prayer of quiet.” She recommended the following prayer technique to another nun:

    “Pray the Lord’s Prayer, but take an hour to pray it. Spend a few minutes entering into each individual phrase, until it becomes truly the prayer of your heart, and you become the prayer.”

    I have no clue what “become the prayer” means, but Jesus Christ never taught His followers any such thing. He never taught them to empty their minds, which is what occurs during Transcendental meditation. The “prayer of quiet” has its roots in Eastern mysticism, not the Bible. People will argue that Catholic monks have been engaging in CP for centuries, like that alone should make it acceptable. However, it doesn’t negate the fact that meditation goes against the express teaching of Scripture. “Let no one be found among you … who practices divination or sorcery, iinterprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead” (Deut. 18:10-11).

    Granted, the Bible says Christians are to mediate. Joshua 1:8 says, “Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.”

    Meditation is contemplating what God says in the pages of Holy Scripture so that we will do everything written in it. In other words, so that God’s people will know what He expects and be obedient. As John MacArthur observes, “It is not enough just to study the Bible. We must meditate upon it. In a very real sense we are giving our brain a bath; we are washing it in the purifying solution of God’s Word.” I read somewhere that if a Christian is careless in Bible reading he or she will care less about Christian living. (To read more on Christian meditation.[2])

    As I mentioned above, Christians are involving themselves in “kything prayer” (KP). There are other examples of outright heresy practiced by Christians could be brought to light, but KP is sufficiently concerning that it deserves a few paragraphs here. That way, when a well meaning, albeit undiscerning, person introduces KP into your church you’ll be equipped to explain its connection to Eastern mysticism. (Unfortunately there are church leaders who are as undiscerning as some laypeople, hence they, too, are guilty of introducing false teaching and outright heresy into the Body of Christ!) If only Christians would heed Paul’s words to Timothy: ” … you have known the holy Scripturres, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:15-17).

    Most Christians aren’t “thoroughly equipped” for one simple reason — they don’t bother to meditate on God’s Word. A large number of evangelicals admit that they’re too busy to spend time in their Bibles and only pray on the run, so it shouldn’t surprise anyone that liberalism has a foothold in most mainline denominations and is spreading like wildfire through evangelicalism (which was once ultra conservative). Bear in mind that “progressive Christians” (liberals) have the unmitigated arrogance to profess their love for Christ, yet they endeavor to mold His church into a decidedly unbiblical worldview. You can put a steeple on it, but that doesn’t make it Christian. But I digress.

    “Kythe” is an ancient Scottish word that means “to make known; to manifest; to show.” It’s described as a sort of telepathic communication whereby “one person almost becomes another, seeing through their eyes and feeling through their senses.” Kythers communicate through methods other than the senses, which sounds a lot like mental telepathy! While in this frame of mind, “the two people intuitively know the meaning of what the other is telling them, disregarding such things as words or pictures. The idea may be based on the concept of Oneness, which states that all that exists, is one in its source and end…reecollection and assertion of that concept puts a person ‘in Kythe’ with that which they are concentrating on.”[3]

    Before I enlighten you with the three steps to get started in KP, I should mention that the concept of “Oneness” comes from Eastern Religion’s belief in pantheism — God is everything and everything is God. “All that exists constitutes a ‘unity’ and this all-inclusive unity is in some sense divine.”[4]

    How does pantheism explain human nature? I love how Sue Bohlin puts it, “Pantheism explains human nature by saying we’re all a part of god, but our problem is that we forget we’re god. We just need to be re-educated and start living like the god we are.”

    Christianity does not hold that God is “everything and everything is God.” On the contrary, authentic Christians are theists. Theism holds that God is transcendent, that He is separate and distinct from His creation, and that He possesses the attributes of personality, hence God is personal. Moreover, Christians believe that in the incarnation God took on bodily form and became the God-man (Theanthropos.)

    No Christian should buy into the New Age movement’s lie that each human soul is akin to a drop of water in a sea of Divine Consciousness. (“Here there is not even energy; no body, no mind, no light, no sound – absolute nothingness – total vacuum – only tremendous potential unmanifest Divine Consciousness, from which all life and material creation flows.”[5] For part two click below.

    Please read part 2 here http://www.newswithviews.com/West/marsha52.htm

  • Elmarie A

    KOBUS HATTINGH

    This is a confirmation as to the spirit that you do have in you and it clearly is not of Christ.

    How could you even make such a statement? Only the Lord Jesus knows our hearts.

    Tell me if you where told and warned of false prophets by one of the Apostles personally today, would you also have told them “This is a confirmation as to the spirit that you do have in you and it clearly is not of Christ.” ? Agh no Kobus you have no clue what you are talking about.

    It is obvious you have no discernment in you and believe everything that is told to you by church leaders. I pray that you will come to your senses and test everything to see whether it proceeds from God.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    How it works in Kobus’ world is he can say what he wants, it’s others who stand for the truth who need to keep quiet.

  • mijadedios

    someone sent this to me via twitter. Wow. I will look into this more.Without viewing the videos and merely skimming through the article and comments I will say that there is always a danger in exalting anyone, I repeat, ANYONE; as ‘sound’ as you may think they are to the point that you follow ‘them’ and what they say. This is why men of God who are used by God are targets. As much as we try, Christians hold up their idols of ‘great men of God’ and then stumble and suffer as we watch these men fall from grace,or fall away into false teachings. This has to be a lesson to us all to not follow ANY man (or woman) but Jesus Christ Alone! It seems so narrow minded, I know, but Jesus himself said, (Matthew 7:13) “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
    14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Mijadedios

    Glad to see you are still alive :)

  • Burning Lamp

    I think that we can respect our own pastors and leaders as God has raised up those who are called to be shepherds over their flocks. This is scriptural. However, we are to use our own discernment and measure everything by the Word of God. We are not to elevate any man above God and no pastor/leader worthy of their calling would want anyone to do that. A true pastor/leader has a servant heart and a caring and humble attitude toward those entrusted to their care just as a human shepherd cares for his sheep. They will allow themselves to be examined without being offended. But what we are seeing all too often today is an arrogance that is not God-honoring. This pride leads to a fall, but most don’t even realize they have fallen. And those who dare to even respectfully call error to their attention are maligned and dismissed.

    This is a characteristic of the last of the last days. Trust but always verify by the Word of God.

  • Valerie

    Deborah,

    I found another piece of the puzzle with Paul Washer that might explain some of his terminology. He likes to quote Leonard Ravenhill a lot.

    Watch this video clip, within the first few minutes Ravenhill heaps praise on Madame Jeanne Guyon, the famous French Mystic.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgvaFErZFVY

    Interesting huh?

    We are so influence by those we listen to and most times don’t even realize where we’ve picked up these viruses.

  • Burning Lamp

    Oh my – this is a shocker about Ravenhill. I know doctrinally-solid people who quote him and I have read some of this work. Guess it goes to show that we can’t put our trust in any man. Thanks Valerie for calling this to our attention. Very disappointing, but we need to know these things.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    We can not trust ANY man. Right now there is not one single person I can say point to and say they are ok, but I can point to the Bible 100% of the time without fail for Jesus Christ is the Authur.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Valerie

    Oh boy! Look at that! And they know that we won’t know who these people are or bother to check, so they are free to carry on.

    Thank you for that brilliant find!

  • Burning Lamp

    I would like to say that I have been blessed by some of the “dead guys” that I affectionately like to call them. One such man is H.A. Ironside. I have collected all of his commentaries in my library and have been greatly blessed and edified by them. They do not replace the Bible, but such a Spirit-led expositor as Ironside honors the Word and teaches its truths faithfully and skillfully. I don’t put my trust in Ironside, but I do respect the man and the life he led in honor to the Lord and how he loved the Word of God. I look forward to meeting this faithful servant who never considered himself to be anything but an itinerant preacher. He would be appalled at the current state of the Church in our time.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Now that you put it that way. One dead guy helped my grandfather. Hats off to Spurgeon. Pity my grandmother wont listen – she is currently ‘enlightened’ the Benny Hinn way. It’s a sad.

  • RICHARD SCHURZ

    Dear brother in Jesus,

    God says, “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times. what is still to come!…What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned that will I do!”  Isaiah 46:10a, 11b  This Bible study compares all the Scripture on each End-time topic and exposes over 12 absolute contradictions of God’s Word by dangerous and deceptive pre-trib doctrines. The next Bible study shows the 7 Bible clues which positively reveals the identity of 666. And finally there is a Bible study which shows how Obama may qualify to be the very deceptive False Prophet of 666.
    Would greatly appreciate any comments or Bible studies you may have on the Last Days. 
     
    Your eternal friend in Jesus,
     
    Richard

    Admin – Edited (we cannot place articles please just give a link and we will have a look at it and if ok and safe we may place the link. Thank you)

  • Hilgard Muller

    Regarding Paul Washer. Are we not a bit quick to put him in a certain camp, I absolutely support the fact that false teachers must be identified but let me just give you my reasons.
    It might be hard to believe but I have listened to over 200 of his sermons some of them more than once, he is one of the few pastors that actually still leads his listeners to true repentance. We must never forget the simplicity in salvation.
    Remember that every man and woman is in sin and guilty so therefore we will not find a perfect preacher other than Jesus Christ Himself.
    Even though I am a pre-mil as far as I know Eschatology is not a doctrinal requirement just like many other aspects. The most important matter is that we all are TRULY born again.

    Thank you for a wonderful site and God Bless.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hilgard

    Unfortunately I wish I was being too quick on this one, but I waited over a year before I posted anything on him.

    He is so close to being a Roman Catholic it’s not even funny. In fact he is a Roman Catholic without the fancy dress. He believes in Amillennialism (RC), Total Depravity (Gnostic), Chosen (Gnostic), Augustine (RC) – and dabbles in contemplative spirituality (RC)

    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/10/13/unconditional-election-and-total-depravity-are-gnostic-teachings/
    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/09/23/john-calvin-believed-in-amillennialism-as-do-the-roman-catholic-church/

  • Hilgard Muller

    Succeeded this morning in getting Rick Warren sermons of sermonindex.net 9 I am not popular there anymore, they still have Kathryn Kuhlman sermon available with thousands of downloads already …………. just thought i’ll share this

  • Phil

    Good things Washer says but strange stuff he sneaks-in here and there; I think that he might be a jesuit priest; therefore he must be “true” in a way, to reach us and afterwards snuff in deceit…

    Have anyone noticed the “ill be honest” videos that are animated with dark bricks and fire in background?

    FILLED WITH OCCULT SYMBOLISM; take the “truth” one; starts with an “O” on fire and the top of an “A” on fire: THE EYE ON TOP OF THE PYRAMID THAT IS THE SUN SIRIUS.
    Take the “it will cost you everything” one; the vatican’s knights of columbus’s rod of fascism is hidden in there in the background, and steve lawson’s “new reformation” is occult logo and vaticanus/siniaticus/alexandrian texts NKJV; so when this video talks about giving ownership of all that I possess to christ, it speaks of, and is a subliminal mind-set for, MAITREYA/COSMICCHRIST/LUCIFER! Yahshua(Jesus Christ) said to give all to the poor, not to him; this is “GURU” stuff…

    ANYWAYS, I could go on and on,,, the point is WASHER IS WOLF IN SHEEP CLOTHING.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Phil

    My goodness, I will have to check this out. Can you provide some links?

    These videos are by Albert Martin and Steve Lawson:
    “truth” video: http://illbehonest.com/Truth-Albert-Martin
    “it will cost you everything” video” http://illbehonest.com/It-Will-Cost-You-Everything-Steve-Lawson —> I saw the part of the ‘Axe’ that you are referring too as being the Vatican’s knights of columbus’s rod at 01:59. And you are right about the A being on fire, that is sure as nuts reference to eye of horus.

  • Phil

    United Nations:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua2xv5VsCrM
    Maitreya:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRPQ3Xq4qxo
    Disinformation Agents:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xiwqVrfGp0
    Be careful with Walter Veigh (total onslaught series); for if you search about Helen G White you will find out about her occult stuff about the Kingdom of Christ coming down from Orion…
    (7th day adventists are the same fruit trees as Mormons & Jehovah’s witnesses etc… SPEAKING OF LEADERS OF COURSE; MOST FOLLOWERS ARE DECEEVED, or just evil,if knowing all this wicked stuff and still going along).
    Textus Recepticus vs Vaticanus/Siniaticus:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBrMcdgfJTc
    Walter Veigh’s “changing the word”, from total onslaught,
    it is a good video to see changes in bibles; THOUGH be careful: NOTICE WALTER VEIGH INTERRUPTING THE WOMAN (very first sentence of video) SAYING “WHERE THERE WORM DIETH NOT”, SPEAKING OF HELL.
    (because Veigh & adventists says hell does not exist)…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isbLWSuG2DY

    Salvation vs works, if you search THE bible;
    Jesus said he comes not to destroy the law but to fullfil it;
    Yes you are saved by grace, that is Jesus taking on your sins to be crushed by his own father instead of you. (and yes the cup is filled with the wrath of almighty God; the nails and torture are just to go along with the wrath).
    The works & does not save you but will make you; or the least, or the great, in the Kingdom of God, once saved of course…

    DONT TAKE ALL MY WORDS NOR ALL THE VIDEOS’S; SEARCH TO CONFIRM FOR YOURSELFS. THE ONLY WORD YOU CAN TRUST A 100% IS GODS; AND BE CAREFUL WITH JOB’S & SOLOMON’S BOOKS; THERE ARE 2 WISDOMS; GODS WISDOM & WISE REBUKE, & MAN’S “UNDER THE SUN” WISDOM…

    one last thing; see these videos (seven seminars), knowing that the “elite” put this guy in jail,,, WHY DO YOU THINK SO? http://freehovind.com/watch
    You will see that science proove creation and not evolution…

  • Phil

    I know Im out of subject here…

    The Arrivals = disinfo agents, did you know the “holy” koran teaches that the devil resides in your nose!? Hashem on a major news network!? AHAHAHHAAH???

    NEW BABYLON IDEAS:
    -Vatican city?
    -Babil; Iraq? (former Babylon)
    -Astana; Kazakhstan? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGHYUWZTiRk (http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/09/11/palace-of-peace-and-reconciliation-located-in-astana-kazakhstan/)
    -Dubai; U.A.E? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGeZl-zZmMc


    Like I said; sorry for the “out of subject”, It would have made less sense if posted not after the former messages.


    NOTICE THE heartcry mission logo; double cross inside the eye; we know that symbols can be re-arranged and still mean the same thing as long as all elements are there; double cross under obelisk is st-peter’s square vatican city.

  • Its a shame when self proclaimed christians spend their time and efforts trying to bring other christians down. Every well know man of God goes thro8ugh the same thing. While I dont claim to be an expert on him,Ive listened to Paul enough to know that he preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ and doesnt water it down.I appreciate what he does and the way he teaches the word. I wouldnt look to any man and expect perfection as only Jesus was perfect. Paul is a man of God and I expect to see him in Heaven one day. The author of this needs to get a life.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Caleb

    >> Every well know man of God goes thro8ugh the same thing.

    Goes through what? Apostasy? I think not.

  • No. Every prominent preacher has someone calling them a false prophet and trying to scandalize and slander their name. It happened to Jesus, Apostle Paul, and happens to every famous man of God today.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Caleb

    Yes that is true, but does that now make every man a true man of God? No. The Bible tells you over and over to test the words that people speak and line them upto the Word of God, if they DO NOT TIE UP you are to AVOID them. Paul Washer is one of these men, just because he does not look dodgy does not mean he is not dodgy.

    I get so so sad when people compare people on earth to what happened to Jesus Christ. How dare you? He IS the Son of God. Paul Washer is NOT Jesus Christ.

  • Burning Lamp

    Caleb, there is a HUGE difference between being persecuted for preaching/teaching truth and being called out for false teaching. Every true servant of God will suffer for it at some point, but false teachers flourish and are given a pass by the majority of the gullible and undiscerning. In fact, those who DO call out false teachers are the ones who get persecuted for doing so!!!

    Sadly, Caleb you seem to be one of the guillable and undiscerning.

  • Chris

    Caleb

    Firstly we share a common appraisal on Jesus, in the fact that He spoke the Truth and nothing but the Truth. With that being said, it is important to realize that no man on this planet can be put on the level of Jesus Christ, for as mentioned before He was the only perfect man without fault.(He is the Messiah). So then why is it so simple to compare Paul to Jesus in the sense that Jesus was persecuted, now automatically Paul’s actions and sermons have been justified, because he’s not perfect and because of that he is being persecuted?

    I acknowledge the fact that no man on this planet to date is perfect, but again this is no justification for teaching things that are not of God and His Truth. In fact God expects us to note them and the brethren in Christ, of their mistakes that they might correct them and if they do not they are not of God.(Titus 1:9-11)(John 8:45-47). So in simple terms, Jesus spoke 100% Truth and because of that he was persecuted by the men of the world, people not of God, people who twisted the scriptures to suit their own vendettas (which is still happening today). On the other hand this article and many more on this site exposes false doctrines and teachings as it should be according to God’s righteous way.(Ezekiel 3:17-21)(Romans 16:17). The True Christians are not of the world, but are in it.(John 17) So why then do these apparent “true Christians” Flourish the way they do? (that however is a topic for another discussion)

    From this it is simple to see that by this article pointing out the wrongs of false prophets, is justified by the Word of God. Which is contrary to what most Charismatic, Calvinistic, Catholic and any other large cult will have us believe.

    I hope and pray that you are truly lead to see that mediocrity and being nonclinical in the Word of God is not justified by the excuse of imperfection, rather it is this that drives us to see our faults and correct them according to God’s Will. As the man said himself(Paul Washer) – ” the greatest sign that your a Christian is that God is pointing out to you your sins…” (not word for word)

    Regards Chris.

  • Chris

    Phil

    I note that you have seen concerning and troubling sign on the video clips of Paul Washer, I have a small collection of these and still have to investigate those. I am aware that I should not buy into the heartcry ministry, because of this article and of your warnings.

    However I wish to clear something on that Hebrew word for meditate, even though it might be something small. You were right in the fact that it is indexed under H1897 and that in some places in scripture it does mean to murmur, mutter, utter, speak, imagine. Thing is in the specific to Psalms as you so quickly pointed out this is used in the meaning of pondering upon ( Righteous pondering ) and that is what is meant by some being “marinated” in the Word. You constantly think and ponder about the scripture, because it is something that is very active in your life. Living a righteous life is a constant thing and therefore we need to think righteously the whole time just as we contend for our faith. (Jude 1:3)(Galatians 5:16-21)

    May I remind you that several hypnotic techniques involve the medium of repetition, even in the Charismatic movements they have that constant “praise and worship” which is monotonous repetition of the rhythm and tones to set a mass hypnotic trick on the congregation. Catholics use the same repetition at mass as they pray to their false God in confession the “hail marry”. Bushmen dance in repetitive circles and murmur and mutter things in their native language until they enter a spiritual walk or trance(demonic). Chanting can be found in any form of witchcraft. So even though they seem miles apart all of them use repetition.

    The perfect prayer in the Bible however has no repetition in it what so ever. ( Matthew 6:9)

    So let us ask ourselves this: If God wanted us to practice His prayer and His doctrine, just as the Satanists, Catholics and bushmen do. Why is it then written in scripture that we will have no fellowship with these people and will not practice any of their rituals? (Ephesians 5:11)(Acts 22:17) and the other scriptures already mentioned concerning this repetition.

    I hope that all that I said is clear as to the Word of God. There is no other Truth but His Truth, not the interpretation of the Bible as men would like it and if it is the Holy Spirit leading anyone it will always run in parallelization with the Bible. The Holy Spirit gives us understanding of the True meaning. (John 16:12-15). He does not give us a new Truth, to which we have to meditate to receive. unless gifted other wise and even then we tread on thin ice when it comes to all the false prophets and prophetesses of this dark world.

    regards

    Chris.

  • Chris

    >>So let us ask ourselves this: If God wanted us to practice His prayer and His doctrine, just as the Satanists, Catholics and bushmen do. Why is it then written in scripture that we will have fellowship with these people and will not practice any of their rituals? (Ephesians 5:11)(Acts 22:17) and the other scriptures already mentioned concerning this repetition.

    I meant to say have no fellowship with doctrines that are contrary to the Bible. [EDITED BY DTW: I fixed your original comment]

    Sorry for the confusion.

    Chris.

  • Marcus Levigne

    I must say, you have done well to discern the world. You’re part of it Debbie!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Marcus

    I tell you what, how about you come back with a more intelligent comment and then we can debate? and then let’s see who discerns and who doesn’t. In fact I’ll start it off…

    So Marcus, explain to me ‘Contemplative Spirituality’?

  • A spec of Dust

    Everyone here has the addidute of having superior knowledge over one another. It’s amazing how many christians have so much knowledge but seem to be blind and speak only in pride and arrogance. Examine yourselves. Nothing anyone says is out of love or correction. Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 1- corinthians 5;6. Like the pharisees and sadducees some of you claim to be interpreters of scripture and others observes of the law. Yet none of you talk, and or behave or walk like Christ or his disciples. Some of you spend countless time looking at false teachers feeling good about yourselves because you feel you some how exposed them and you pat yourselves in the back. But you judge them and at the same time you condem yourself to the same judgement. The WORD of God is spoken out of LOVE. Ask yoursleves, do you do this to help others or enter a debate with one another? Christ came rebuking those who claimed to know everythign about God’s word yet they could not see the Son of Man in front of them. Their Hearts were hardened and they themselves thought they had supperior knowledge would not recieve the truth. Mr. Washer makes a lot of Good point and I do not agree with everything he says. That gives no one the right to hold themselves above anyone else. His Passion for God is great and if you are truely concerned pray for him. Do not let your wisdom surpass what God says to be the ultimate gift and power…LOVE. I love the WORD of God but it is not to be used to fight other christians. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching,for reproof,for correction,for training in righteousness;that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”(2 Timothy 3:16-17). Please brothers and sisters learn to live and be transformed by the holy spirit of God in which you will become a slave to Christ. Love one another…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    A spec of Dust

    I think you are the biggest CONTRADICTION on the face of this planet. You speak about “… a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?” but you are happy to let Paul Washer leaven the WHOLE LUMP of DOUGH.

    I wonder what Jesus thinks of you; it can’t be good.

  • Paul

    Deborah,

    After reading through all of the comments, I wonder if you realize that your comments can seem a bit condescending at times. In fact, sometimes you sound downright haughty, often mocking people for their view and verbally insulting them.

    “Your gravatar is a pentagram. I think you should ‘meditate’ on changing it. Please go and study up on contemplative spirituality, will take you a few weeks. Once you have understood it in its entirety, come back and we can talk again.”

    “I’ve had this discussion before with someone that went on for days. The entire conversation is on this blog somewhere… you can search for it. Needless to say I won the debate.”

    “If you can’t come up with a decent reply, which you never will, then get behind me.”

    “I am from South Africa, buy an Atlas.”

    “Paul Washer is the one who needs to get his life in order, and his followers too like you it seems.”

    “Regarding the warfare part. Go buy yourself that xbox game that comes with night-vision goggles and get rid of all that aggression.”

    “And of course you wont recognise the fruit of the Holy Spirit on this website because you don’t read your Bible and willingly accept false teaching.”

    “I tell you what, how about you come back with a more intelligent comment and then we can debate? and then let’s see who discerns and who doesn’t.”

    “I think you are the biggest CONTRADICTION on the face of this planet…I wonder what Jesus thinks of you; it can’t be good.”

    I can honestly say that what I see in these comments is haughtiness, pride, and nothing more.
    I see no love, gentleness, or meekness..

    I’m not saying this to offend you, but rather to tell you that your way of presenting your case is very offensive and in the wrong. “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” I sincerely pray that you would take this to heart.

    I certainly won’t be coming back to this website, but I will pray that God shows you the way.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    Of course you are here to offend me Paul. I love how you don’t quote what others have said to me – that’s ok, I can be verbally offended day in and day out just like you are doing to me now but I am not allowed to answer in return. And by the way Paul, NO WHERE have I INSULTED anyone. Those are comments made in DIRECT CORRELATION to the other persons comment to me.

    YOU MY DEAR PAUL are obviously offended at the ARTICLE I wrote, but you don’t have anything to say in return, so you go nitpick for something else.

    I see you are not coming back to this site. Good. (Don’t take that as an insult). I would love to have you hang around but gosh, if you are going to offend me day in and day out I would rather have it that you stay away.

  • john stoner

    [EDITED by DTW:

    dear John

    Why is that you have an almost identical IP address to Paul?

    What does the bible say about lying?

    Don’t bother commenting again, you and your friend Paul or alter-ego can go play games else where.]

  • Victor

    0___0 jy gee Suid Afrikaners `n slegte naam Deborah.
    Dit is ok as jy met mense verskil, dit is verder ok as jy nie 100% glo wat ander glo nie, (as dit nie die basiese leerstellings van die geloof in twyfel trek nie Heb 6:1-3) maar as ons volgelinge van die Messiah genoem word moet ons so optree ook. Die kommentaar wat ek sover gelees het gaan baie oor jy wat ander op hulle plek kan sit. Ook, sif die muggie uit maar sluk die kameel in.
    Ek is seker jy gaan `n sarkastiese aanmerking vir my hê. Maar dit is ok.

    Ek stem nie saam met alles wat ek al gehoor of gelees het van Paul Washer nie, gelukkig is hy nie die maatstaf van of ek gered is of nie. Daardie maatstaf is die voltooide werk van die Meester Y’shua’ Messiah. [Jesus Christus]
    Maar ek kan jou die volgende versekering gee, ek is geestelik meer gestig deur een van sy boodskappe as deur dit wat ek sover op jou site gelees het.
    As ek so die plasings lees, kan ek verstaan hoekom Paulus gesê het vrouens stilbly in die gemeente en moet eerder nie ander onderrig nie.
    1 Tim 2:11,12; 1 Kor 14:34
    Dit is in die Skrif, maar ek dink nie jy sal dit like nie. =)
    Shalom

  • Robbie

    In die skrif Victor… weet ook nie of jy dit sal “like” nie…

    The woman is permitted to teach men outside of the assembly (Lk. 2:36-38; Jn. 4:28-30; 20:17-18; Acts 18:24-26; 21:8-9),
    to teach other women (Tit. 2:3-5),
    and to teach children (II Tim. 1:5; 3:14-15).

  • Gennifer

    [deleted]

  • Reformedthinker

    Don’t discount this preacher over one sermon. He is preaching truth about the Gospel and biblical repentance. Listen to all his other sermons on sermonaudio.com and then you decide if he is a false prophet. We are allowed to make mistakes. The total depravity of man is biblical and Paul Washer is an example of a depraved man saved by God’s grace alone; nonetheless, he is still a God-fearing man who is not ashamed of the Gospel. He is not relevant and unashamedly bold in preaching biblical truths.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Reformedthinker

    No he is not saved, he is elect. He was saved before he was born according to the wicked gospel of predestination.

  • Reformedthinker

    [deleted - I do not have time to argue with Calvinists - there is more than enough info on this blog to answer any question a Calvinist could ever ask and I have no inclination right now to repeat myself over and over and over again - you were asked to read the comments section to find your answers (across multiple articles - please do that]

  • Reformedthinker

    [deleted - I do not have time to argue with Calvinists - there is more than enough info on this blog to answer any question a Calvinist could ever ask and I have no inclination right now to repeat myself over and over and over again - you were asked to read the comments section to find your answers (across multiple articles - please do that]

  • Reformedthinker

    [deleted - calling me a liar for calling Paul Washer a mystic is certainly not scoring you any brownie points. First and fore most he is a Calvinist - which is damning enough - get over it]

  • Reformedthinker

    [delete - pay attention ReformedThinker - the answer to your questions have already been answered in the comments section - PLEASE GO READ THEM. I am censoring you because you are refusing to listen to me and READ the comments as I asked. I don't have time to repeat myself just for you.]

  • steve

    [deleted - do you think insulting me is going to get your comment approved?]

  • John Chingford

    I have just watched the entire 90 or so minutes of the Paul Washer video re the mysticism citicism. I just have to reply to the comments made about it because I want to be unbiassed and fair.

    The comments were:

    “It breaks my heart to hear him repeating the same lies and leading sincere people away from genuine Faith in Christ. The Presence of God is not an experience. I am in God’s Presence by Faith, not by being silent and sitting at His feet. To be sitting at His feet means that you are learning from Him the truth that is written in the Word of God.

    Comments are sprinkled throughout. At the very beginning of the message he speaks of silence and meditation (5:50) and cites a poem or something that refers to the sacred silence (6:53). The part were he talks about Practice the Presence is at (21:45) – Paul Washer is quoting “Brother Lawrence – Contemplative Monk” (1611- 1691).
    He uses the phrase “Practice the Presence” and refutes the idea that you can pray as you go, but then he gives it heed by saying you must practice the presence in a time of stillness and solitude. He didn’t use those exact words, but that is the message.”

    Actually I did not come to those conclusions in what Paul Washer said. I never recall him saying that the presence of God is an experience. He did not state that we need to practice the presence of God. He was actually quoting what others were saying. Therefore he was using their quote in response to what they said i.e. they said “I do not need to get alone with God in quietness to practice the presence of God”.

    He said “you cannot know God if you are too busy, i.e. you DO need to spend time alone with God. I agree totally with that. He did not go on to say “you need to practice the presence of God by being alone”. I never heard him say that. All he was doing was refuting the lazy ones who were making excuses not to go into the prayer closet by using the “practicing the presence” as theirv reason. It does not mean that he was endorsing that false theology.

    Is the author of this site saying that he/she only needs to read the scriptures without talking to God? If so, they are wrong. Jesus made it clear that we need to go into the prayer closet and speak to God in secret. The psalmist says “be still and know that I am God”. Obviously that doesn’t necessarily mean being quiet although Proverbs state that we should be careful when we go into the presence of the Lord not being careless with our lips “Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.” Eccles 5:2.

    Although I think that is referring to making careless vows. However, there is an important point in all this that we should take time to slow down from the speed and activity of life and pray as the Holy Spirit leads us after getting ourselves in the right frame of mind to pray by quieting our soul.

    I TOTALLY reject the emerging contemplative spirituality method of stillness. I cannot recall Paul Washer (at any time in his message) alluding to that type of prayer. I listened carefully throughout because I was waiting to see if he discussed mysticism. There was nothing at all (within his message) related to Emerging mysticism.

    Regarding silence and meditation and the poem. Paul W was talking about spending time away from the noise and busyness to spend time alone with God. I personally cannot focus properly in prayer and devotions if there is noise around me. I just cannot concentrate properly on reading His Word and hearing the “still small voice” unless it is relatively quiet. Paul W discussed how Jesus found solitary places to pray alone with the Father. I cannot discern error in what he said regarding prayer, at all. He never mentioned anything that sounded like EC meditation.

    The meditation Paul W referred to was meditating on the Bible. Surely we all agree that we need to carefully read the scriptures and not be like the one who looks into the mirror and then goes away forgetting what we looked like (James).

    I do feel that the author is a bit unfair with their criticisms. However, if another video proved that Paul W was an EC type “contemplative” I will accept it, but this video DID NOT show that.

    Please let me know your thoughts if I missed something.

    Thanks and God bless
    John

  • John Chingford

    As a follow on from my last comment.

    Just to show that I am not biassed in favour of Paul Washer or any type of Calvinism or Calvinists please see the latest article on my blog which proves this. I think you are on the same page as me on this. Please let me know what you think

    [removed]

    I wrote the previous comment because I believe we should be balanced and always be accurate in what we present.

  • Paul

    Elmarie,
    I’m having a hard time reconciling your comments on this article on Paul Washer on one hand, and on the other hand your promotion of a conference at which he is a speaker without any warning : http://fortheloveofhistruth.com/2012/01/11/a-call-to-discernment-registration-now-open-justin-peters/

    Has Paul Washer changed from what the article above says?

    May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.

    Paul

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    Hahaha funny you should ask.

    Elmarie was on my blog as an undercover Calvinist. Her and her husband Grant lied to me for many months. Their plan was to try convert me to Calvinism – it didn’t work. When they realised I was against Calvinism they heinously attacked me and drove 2 friends away from me, and even tried to turn my mother against me. Vicious vicious people they are. If burning at the stake was allowed in this day and age I am sure they would have rigged up a wooden pole, tied me to it and set me alight.

    You will find many things amiss with their website – For one they have an article called “The Arminian Christ vs. The Christ of the Bible (a short addendum)” but then they advertise Johan Malans book and also a few of his articles (he leans towards Arminian thinking) So as we can see they promote the false Christ on their blog as well along with their Calvinist Christ.

    Then if you look under their links section, they link to a website called “Because He Lives” this guy is an EMERGENT. He calls himself a baptist but if you review his website you will see he believes in and practices meditation, and has written an article about the adoration of Mary.

    Elmarie and Grant are false teachers second to none and their actions prove them such.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mark

    Imagine you to pop up so fast out of the woodwork. Thanks for the link

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    They wrote

    “Hi Paul (Continue In His Word)

    Please make clear, what is your exact questions here?

    The links and names mentioned was removed from your comment, for a good reason, as we no longer have any associations with this person or the website for over a year now. We have found that the methods of discernment used by this person and their blog are not always the truth, sadly so.

    In His service “

    As you can see by their comments on my website (and they are all over my website) vs the articles on their website they are the dishonest ones – when they were questioned over and over and over again if they were Calvinists they denied it vehemently and attacked me for lying and THEN whaaalaaaaa they open a blog promoting Calvinism and their murder hero John Calvin. The PROOF IS IN DA PUDDING! And a stale pudding it is.

  • Paul

    DTW,
    It didn’t take long for me to figure out they were calvinist. But WHY do they attempt to conceil it even on their blog? Why do they not state it plainly? I guess it is so that they can deceive the greatest number of undescerning with the mixture of truth and error they propagate.
    Very, very sad indeed.
    “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not
    according to this word, it is because there is no light in
    them.” Isa 8:20

    Lord Jesus, can the widespread deception and apostasy go further and deeper than this before the trumpet sound? Can it, Lord?
    I’m sorry, but I feel like the rapture is going to happen anytime from now. Today I put my nicest suit to go to work, and I was thinking: If a colleague asks me: What’s special for today, I would simple answer: Oh, I’m just ready because the rapture could happen anytime from now, and I want to be as clean outside as I am inside when my Saviour appears.

    Just a few thoughts.
    Paul

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Paul

    They hide because that is what they are, deceivers. Could not even answer your question as simple and straight forward as it was. They mix truth and error on their site to confuse people even more. They are nothing but Roman Catholics headed back to Rome, where St Augustine (their philosopher) started it all, and John Calvin enforced it years later by death.

    I ask myself that question every day as well, how much more deception is there still to come and how bad can it be, because right now… it’s pretty bad.

    I love the suit idea, that’s cute :)

  • Burning Lamp

    Paul said:

    Lord Jesus, can the widespread deception and apostasy go further and deeper than this before the trumpet sound? Can it, Lord?

    Paul, I echo your heart cry every night as I lay my head on the pillow and every morning as I awake. Each new day seems to another shocking revelation of more apostasy. It is a heavy load to bear and the Blessed Hope becomes more Blessed every day as we anticipate our Savior’s return for us.

    And as we speak there are more and more posing as “discernment” ministries that are shredding the precious pre-trib rapture. This thread is not about eschatology, but it is all related.

    May the Lord lift you and sustain you until we do hear that trumpet to call us to our eternal home and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

  • Ben Blue

    It makes me sad that we are so eager to cut down other christians :( I used to be the same but if we can learn anything by studying people like paul washer then we can learn that men are fallible and that we should be so humble as to assume we are quite fallible ourselves and that we should just meditate on God and not worry about feeding off of debates and tearing up other preachers. All that tearing up someone like Paul Washer will do is make us feel safe or something. If you truthfully think he is off then pray for him or pray that you will learn the truth. I learned a while back that it only hurt me to continually judge pastors. No man is good not one. We are no better than Paul Washer and Paul Washer knows he is no better than us. He is a man who still would cry and confess to God when he sins because he so hates how evil he is. He preaches messages that although have error, are full of great truth. I think arguing about stuff like pre trib or post trib and all of that nonsense is just avoiding the truth. The truth is that Jesus came down on this earth and lived perfectly and saved us and we are his servants since he bought us. I don’t know how it is serving him by being like this towards Paul Washer. Don’t be bothered by Paul Washer. If you disagree with what he says then so be it, God doesn’t look for us to be perfect. He looks at christ and we should all be so humbled and should cry that we bicker about such little things when most of the world hasn’t heart the gospel. Do we really miss the picture this much? Most of the people alive today are going to hell and we focus on such little things as what we believe about the rapture? We should try to build Paul Washer up in prayer and ask God to correct him and discipline him where he is wrong, not condemn him for a few beliefs. You will know them by their fruit. Paul Washer goes to the jungles of Peru where he could die and probably has had near death experiences and has served there for so long and he loves his family and leads a godly household unlike anyone ive heard of in the modern day and yet we condemn him for doctrine? Why don’t we condemn ourselves for focusing on such things and seek to produce fruit. Paul Washer isn’t perfect but he isn’t going to slow down to point out people and judge them unless they are leading people straight to hell. He does this with Joel Osteen because he doesn’t want people to think that the path is wide and easy and to be deceived. Let’s not focus on such silly things but lets focus on christ! if Paul messes up things like that because he can’t take his eyes off of christ and it was actually important he would have been convicted of it. He is concerned with whether he is leading people to heaven or hell. Let us all be concerned with these things. Doctrine don’t lead people to christ, the gospel does. but if we don’t keep our eyes on jesus we will have a hard time seeing the half of the world that doesn’t have any clue about the Gospel. Pray pray pray that we would have a heart that desires what God desires! we need to have a heart like Jesus had. That is what we need to focus on and is what we should spend our time on

  • Redeemed

    Mr. Blue,

    What do you do with the Bible verses that say we are to mark and avoid false teachers?

    Why does the Bible tell us to be on the alert for false teaching and to be sure we are in sound doctrine?

    Is not sound doctrine important to you?

    Well, it was important to the Apostle Paul and it was important to the other Apostles – they gave their lives as have many others who were martyred because they stood for sound doctrine.

    And most of all, it is important to our Lord Who gave His all for us.

    How can you possibly justify this attitude and defend it by the Word of God. God is all about truth. Certainly, none of us is perfect, but we can and should stand on the truth and defend it.

    Also, the Bible says we are to test the spirits and examine – apparently you don’t believe this. Then you don’t believe the Bible.

  • Batt

    “The thing that makes Washer appealing is his stance against lukewarm Christians and push for personal holiness” Sorry, this comment is not accurate. The main drive of this man within the forty hours of sermon I have absorbed is he challenges everyone to press into Christ. To seek him in the word and prayer. In Paul Washer I have enjoyed a man who is not trying to take a following, but to drive people into Christ. PS: here in New Zealand, I might be one of the harshist critics of bible twisting preachers, but you guys take to a whole nother level!
    ..

  • Paul (Continue in His Word)

    Debs,

    I’ve found the parts of the article on Amillennialism and Dominionist theology so relevant about the movement CMFI I was part of that I’ve put that together to make an article on my blog [removed]

    I link to this article at the bottom.

    My prayer is that Fomum’s followers who read my exposing of his error will read this article as well. My experience with this false prophet and his teachings agrees with your diagnostic that Amillennialism and Dominionism/Kingdom Now are actually the exact same thing. He in particular spoke about the rapture, but when examining his teachings closely one finds that he contradicted himself, and didn’t actually believed what he said about the rapture.

  • Mary

    Since I live in America, I would like to express my view that Paul Washer has a message to the church in America that is very timely and vital. We have made our religion into a sort of “fast food” mentality, with four laws for this, 7 principles for that and 10 steps for maturity, etc. We have huge media screens all over in our churches, just as we have at our stores and at our gas stations. We “entertain” our young people and do not preach a message that brings sanctification or even healing to the body of Christ or to the believer because we are trying to “tickle men’s ears”, or are afraid of offending anyone.
    Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. I have listened to many of Paul Washer’s sermons and his message is one of a deep love for God and for people. He preaches sanctification and the believer’s responsibility to “grow up into the fullness of Christ.”

  • Redeemed

    Mary, I have listened to PW and at first I was positively impressed. But as with anyone, I dig deeper to see where they are actually coming from. PW is a Calvinist. Calvinism is a false doctrine that guts the glorious Gospel. Hence, no matter how good or passionate he sounds, I do not consider him a valid teacher.
    We must be wise as there are many who say all the right things, but they don’t stand up to the biblical doctrine test and that is ALL that matters. Mary, don’t be fooled – there are many who will mislead you unless you “dig deeper” and do the work of a good Berean.

  • Mary

    Redeemed, I read your message this morning and have been thinking about it all day. I know I do not agree with Calvinism, and I never really heard the term, “Lordship Salvation” before, but I am sure it is wrong. Does anyone write to Paul and tell him of his error in his teachings?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Mary

    There are many many people who expose false teachings who contact people such as Paul Washer etc about the false doctrines they believe in. In fact Paul Washer and others hold debates with others over such topics. So they are fully aware of what it’s all about and yet choose to continue following the teachings. These are men with degrees, they are not your little flock in the church pew with no major education in biblical studies. Paul Washer is a very very intelligent man, he knows exactly what he is following and he follows it because he wants too; because it suits his prideful nature to be a Calvinist – an Elect chosen by God before birth.

  • Redeemed

    Mary, you seem like a person who truly cares about truth and thank you for considering my words. When I first heard PW he sounded so refreshing and passionate – he comes across so sincere. I believe he is sincere – sincerely wrong.

    Deborah is right – I am sure that PW has been approached in some way as have other Calvinists about their beliefs in which they are so firmly entrenched. But the fact of the matter is that the Bible does not require that a teacher with a large and public ministry be confronted personally. Their ministry is public, so there needs to be a public warning. If someone knows the teacher personally they have a responsiblity to go to them and try to reason with them. Coming from someone they do not know or consider credible will have little or not effect. This has been proven over and over.

    I know it is disappointing and disheartening but we must face facts and the Word of God must be our final authority. There are so many traps and snares in these last days. Exposing false teachers is not an easy work, but so very necessary.

    May the Lord give you wisdom and discernment.

  • John Chingford

    Hi Everyone

    Deborah, you raise an interesting point regarding intelligence. No-one can deny that PW is very intelligent. Rocket Scientists etc are very intelligent. However, as we know, intelligence never saves anyone but actually gets in the way of a soul humbly accepting what GOD says. As the psalmist said “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. Intelligence is NOT wisdom. It is possible to be extremely intelligent but to be a fool. as the scriptures says “the fool says that there is no God”.

    Therefore, for those who trust in their own intelligence ONLY to learn about God but do not humbly bow the knee to the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to help them (acknowledging that in reality their intelligence is lacking) they will be deceived.

    I truly believe that PW is sincere and is a humble man but is sincerely wrong in his extra biblical calvinistic theology. Clearly (in his enthusiasm for God) he has allowed himself to become brainwashed into that theology. He has become convinced so strongly (in his heart and mind) that Calvinism is true biblical theology, that he cannot see the forest for all the bramble and thorns that is in the way.

    I have listened to many of PW videos. There is much about his preaching (specifically his 10 indictments of the church) that is commendable, but he mixes truth with error and preaches a “works” salvation which the apostle Paul criticised the Galatians against. The Apostle even stated that those who preach such things should be accursed.

    For those who know the Bible and are discerning enough to spot error and not be deceived then PW can inspire us in our dedication to Jesus. However, in all humility and honesty have any of us reached that point 100%? Therefore, probably best not to listen to PW but find some other preacher to inspire us – one who DOES preach the whole Bible.

  • John Chingford

    To add to my last comment:

    Or much better still, let the Bible ALONE and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, inspire us.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    John

    So right you are!

  • Robbie

    … you can go to your college and you can go to your school. If you ain’t got Jesus you’s an educated fool.

    I said this before didn’t I?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    >> I said this before didn’t I?

    I think ya have….

  • It is a sad day to see people put up a website (4 sure non-believers), finding fault with believers, even Billy Graham, publically suggesting even he denounced Jesus as the only way.

    Really poeple. Study the Word and repent b4 it is 2 late.

    Did not God say that there is a law written in the hearts of men whereby they live and be judged? Come now!!! Who r u 2 condemn and judge – u generation of vipers. God is the judge alone.

    Enoch 1:9

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Gustav

    1) We are not finding fault with believers we are QUESTIONING the doctrines of FALSE TEACHERS – Paul Washer is a Calvinist and Calvinism is a FALSE DOCTRINE

    2) Billy Graham did in his own words DENY Jesus Christ by saying that ALL Relgions lead to God.

    I see you quote the Book of Enoch. A NON-INSPIRED book written by someone of no value. Just because Enoch is mentioned in the Bible does not mean the book of Enoch is scriptural. What does God say about adding to His Word? Eh?

    Really Gustuv, pay attention. Study the Word of God and repent before it’s too late.

    You will be held accountable for following false teachers and doctrines of demons and this website’s aims is to WARN people of such things that people’s eyes are opened to what is going on out there and their souls are snatched form the fire. Clearly you do not care about that.

  • Robbie

    Gustav

    Talking about judging. Calling us non-believers is a little unrighteous don’t you think?
    The Bible speaks of the wilfully ignorant… that Gustav means “dumb on purpose”. Do your own studies. Watch Billy deny Jesus on a youtube video, straight from the horse’s mouth.

    and… listen to what Deborah is saying. Pay attention and you may even get your verses in context. The way you quote scripture is a give-away. You are obviously paying someone to read AND interpret the Bible for. you.

  • Michael

    Did not God say that there is a law written in the hearts of men whereby they live and be judged?

    Wrong…where do you invent your false doctrine? Men’s hearts are despicably wicked and contaminated with sin.

    The only solution chosen by God was the way of the cross. His only begotten Son paying the debt for our sins.

    No truth can come out of an unregenerated heart…full stop…part truth yes but truth mixed with poisonous error is deceptively more deadly than plain and obvious lies.

    The Word and the Holy Spirit are one in agreement…people who claim Holy Spirit annointing and do the opposite (or what’s not written in the Word) are fooling themselves and sadly others.

    Gustav you have to be born-again, mate.

  • Robbie

    Michael

    Says I too…

  • Jim

    Deborah – Appreciate the heads up on CS Lewis…did not know that.

    Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    As you are aware the above is from Romans. I submit to you that because you can not cope with the bibles teaching on election you are the ‘thing’ twisting Scripture to fit your beliefs. What do you think God is teaching in the above verse? He is teaching what you have called elsewhere a ‘vile doctrine’. You mentioned Spurgeon had been a help to your Mother(?). He used the illustration of a railway line, where you stand between the tracks and they do not touch but in the distance they do. This applies to the offer of salvation to all men but the fact that only the predestined will be saved through Christ. Human logic will not join this us but faith will and sees the truths join in heaven. By the way Spurgeon was a staunch Calvinist & Ammillenialist.

    I applaud all who stand up against false teaching. False teaching applies steering people away from the gospel of Christ. I agree that logically there is only one interpretation of Scripture, however two people can be saved but one can believe in election and the other in free will – same for eschatology.

    I am not sure if you are misguided and believe what you are saying or simply enjoying the attention and so making provocative comments thus falling into the sin of pride.

    Lastly Paul Washer, I have met him briefly and also have a friend at Heartcry. He is a man of God and preaches the true gospel of salvation alone through Christ. You have twisted his words greatly re meditation.

    May I leave you with a simple question? As a professing Christian when was the last time you felt the presence of God and His peace, joy and love in your heart? When you were you last touched with an overwhelming sense of gratitude for His forgiveness of your sin?

    Time is ticking, we fade like the grass and are soon gone then both of us have to face the Lord. Please pray to Him and ask him to guide you about this blog.

    Christian love to all true believers that read this.

    Jim

  • Jim wrote:

    Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus

    As you are aware the above is from Romans. I submit to you that because you can not cope with the bibles teaching on election you are the ‘thing’ twisting Scripture to fit your beliefs. What do you think God is teaching in the above verse? He is teaching what you have called elsewhere a ‘vile doctrine’. You mentioned Spurgeon had been a help to your Mother(?). He used the illustration of a railway line, where you stand between the tracks and they do not touch but in the distance they do. This applies to the offer of salvation to all men but the fact that only the predestined will be saved through Christ. Human logic will not join this us but faith will and sees the truths join in heaven. By the way Spurgeon was a staunch Calvinist & Ammillenialist.

    Your brain seems to be stuck on Romans 9:20, as do all Calvinists’ brains. You should try reading some other verses in Scripture as well. It helps to get the full picture.

    It is rather dangerous to liken salvation and other important doctrines in the Bible to a railway line with the two parallel spoors meeting in the distance to illustrate election. I assume you are married and have kids. Well, if not, I am sure you are already planning to get married and have kids. Whatever the case, the question is this. Would you prefer to use Surgeon’s insipid illustration to describe the most important doctrine in the Bible (salvation/redemption/regeneration/being born again/made alive) to them or would you rather use these following verses from Scripture – John 3:16, 1 John 2:2; Matthew 11:28-29, Revelation 22:17; John 4:13-14 (He did not say “whosoever is elelected; He said whosoever thirsts) to mention only a few? I suggest that you rather use these and other similar verses otherwise you may be guilty of the following indictment: “It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.” (Luke 17:2). I hope you understand why He used the sea as a metaphor? Let met tell you. The sea is used as a metaphor for the forgiveness of sins (Micah 7:19). So, that’s where everyone who tells little kids that salvation is like the two parallel tracks of a railway line that seems to meet in the distance but actually never meet ought to be cast into – into the sea where everyone’s sins are cast into.

    Let’s get back to your kids. Let’s assume one of them turns out to be a serial killer and murders a multitude of women. I’m serious. I know a dear woman who is truly saved whose one son is in jail for life because he murdered many women. Are you going to say to him: “I wouldn’t worry too much, my son. God made you that way and He is sovereign, you know. He can do whatever He likes. We don’t have the right to say to Him, ‘why hast thou made me a murderer?’ He made you a murderer but we dare not blame Him because He did not make you to murder the women.” Jim, you don’t agree? Well, then you don’t have a clue what Calvinism is. Let me tell you. “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass . . .”

    Calvinism is indeed a vile doctrine and the sooner you renounce it and repent, the better – for your own and your kids’ sakes.

    Referring to the pronouncement of this doctrine at the Synod of Dort, England’s King James of King James Bible fame, though he was no Arminiam, expressed his repugnance:

    This doctrine is so horrible, that I am persuaded, if there were a council of unclean spirits assembled in hell, and their prince the devil were to [ask] their opinion about the most likely means of stirring up the hatred of men against God their Maker; nothing could be invented by them that would be more efficacious for this purpose, or that could put a greater affront upon God’s love for mankind than that infamous decree of the late Synod ….

    Jim wrote:

    May I leave you with a simple question? As a professing Christian when was the last time you felt the presence of God and His peace, joy and love in your heart? When you were you last touched with an overwhelming sense of gratitude for His forgiveness of your sin?

    You can’t receive forgiveness from a false Jesus. That’s impossible. The Calvinist’s Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Theirs is a false Jesus.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Jim

    >> As you are aware the above is from Romans. I submit to you that because you can not cope with the bibles teaching on election you are the ‘thing’ twisting Scripture to fit your beliefs.

    Please read: Calvinism’s Last Stand Totally Dismantled – A look at Romans Chapters 8, 9 and 10

    and What it Really Means to be Elected, Chosen, and Predestinated – The Biblical Truth

    and Jesus Christ Our Passover and His Unlimited Atonement – Proof that Limited Atonement is False.

    Thanks

  • Jim

    Deborah – after posting my article I then looked around the website and saw that you had already expressed your views on my points including Spurgeon ect. This would have changed my original post. After a challenging business meeting today I was driving back for an hour from London and pondering on matters in general. Having reflected on the numerous articles and no doubt hundreds(thousands?) of threads I found on the website which are diametrically opposed to what I believe the bible teaches I realised it would not be a wise use of time to enter into a debate which will achieve nothing for either of us. One sound bit of advice you dispense is that if you don’t like the website don’t come on here – which I will take. Would ask you to privately consider my last point in original post.

    Thomas – If one of my children sadly took that path – why would I condone sin? At present I have counselled them to turn from their sin and trust in the Lord Jesus as that is the only way for salvation. The bible clearly teaches several truths. 1. Salvation alone through Christ. 2- God offers salvation to all. 3 – Only the elect will trust in him(obviously you disagree with this last one) However two people can be trusting in Christ but one can believe that this only happened because God elected him whilst the other can think it is all down to his free will. Also their experience may be similar – a hunger for forgiveness, following Christ – seeking him and finally through God’s grace trusting in Him. Yet, I repeat these two believers can disagree about the exact cause of the arrival at the cross. The main point is they arrived at the cross. This is not a false Jesus. If you believe election but believe your only hope before God is repentance and belief in Christ then according to the Bible you are saved.

    Anyhow, this will be my last post for reasons stated. I can’t express this clearly but there is a harsh dark tone about these pages. Still God is sovereign and allows these things to happen for His own mysterious purposes. In the end the truth will be revealed by Him.

    Jim

  • Jim wrote

    Thomas – If one of my children sadly took that path – why would I condone sin? At present I have counselled them to turn from their sin and trust in the Lord Jesus as that is the only way for salvation. The bible clearly teaches several truths. 1. Salvation alone through Christ. 2- God offers salvation to all. 3 – Only the elect will trust in him(obviously you disagree with this last one) However two people can be trusting in Christ but one can believe that this only happened because God elected him whilst the other can think it is all down to his free will. Also their experience may be similar – a hunger for forgiveness, following Christ – seeking him and finally through God’s grace trusting in Him. Yet, I repeat these two believers can disagree about the exact cause of the arrival at the cross. The main point is they arrived at the cross. This is not a false Jesus. If you believe election but believe your only hope before God is repentance and belief in Christ then according to the Bible you are saved.

    Anyhow, this will be my last post for reasons stated. I can’t express this clearly but there is a harsh dark tone about these pages. Still God is sovereign and allows these things to happen for His own mysterious purposes. In the end the truth will be revealed by Him.

    The example I used with children was merely to illustrate the Calvinists’ view that God decreed everything precisely the way it happens. I did not say or suggest that you condone sin. Please read my comments correctly. But let’s get down to the nitty gritty of things and try to do away with vagueness. Would you mind answering the following questions?

    1) Does God love all people savingly?
    2) Did Jesus Christ die for all people?
    3) Are sinners saved because, as a precondition for salvation, they believed in Jesus and his finished work on the cross or are they saved because they are the elect? Did God only elect some to salvation and chose to damn the rest because it pleases Him?
    4) Is turning away from sin a prerequisite for salvation? How can someone who is as dead as a cadaver in sin and transgressions turn away from sin in order to be saved? Paul Washer says that man is as dead as a corpse in sin and transgressions. Can a corpse sin?

    You say ” In the end the truth will be revealed by Him.” NO, He has already revealed the truth. The problem is that most people refuse to believe and accept his revealed truth.

  • Godissupernatural

    I WILL MEDITATE IN CHRIST… IT’S BIBLICAL

    1. “May my meditation be pleasing to him, as I rejoice in the Lord” Psalm 104:34
    2. “Commune with your own heart upon your bed and be still.” Psalm 4:4
    3. “The Kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:21
    4. “The book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night.” Joshua 1:8

    So can you explain how meditating on the word of God, what the meaning is, is false practice? Meditation is bringing you closer to God, this is not the same as meditation new agers do when they are trying to awake their chakras..we worship God by making him our priority as we do in prayer. This meditation is not to get to some “enlightened” place but to spend time with God, remembering and honoring Jesus Christ, and the holy spirit. This is not mysticism by any means…it is what God wants us to do. I will say, anyone that has been regenerated understands this concept. God is in our thoughts all day, we think about how underserving we are to be shown God’s grace and how the love of God is unexplainable.. Paul Washer will always be respected because he speaks the truth and people that know the word of God understand his message. If you know the WORD OF GOD you will never be lead astray. Sorry but I disagree with your article.

  • Godissupernatural wrote:

    I WILL MEDITATE IN CHRIST… IT’S BIBLICAL

    1. “May my meditation be pleasing to him, as I rejoice in the Lord” Psalm 104:34
    2. “Commune with your own heart upon your bed and be still.” Psalm 4:4
    3. “The Kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:21
    4. “The book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night.” Joshua 1:8

    So can you explain how meditating on the word of God, what the meaning is, is false practice? Meditation is bringing you closer to God, this is not the same as meditation new agers do when they are trying to awake their chakras..we worship God by making him our priority as we do in prayer. This meditation is not to get to some “enlightened” place but to spend time with God, remembering and honoring Jesus Christ, and the holy spirit. This is not mysticism by any means…it is what God wants us to do. I will say, anyone that has been regenerated understands this concept. God is in our thoughts all day, we think about how underserving we are to be shown God’s grace and how the love of God is unexplainable.. Paul Washer will always be respected because he speaks the truth and people that know the word of God understand his message. If you know the WORD OF GOD you will never be lead astray. Sorry but I disagree with your article.

    Yes of course meditation is biblical but then it ought to be BIBLICAL and NOT MYSTICAL. The latter, also known as Contemplative Prayer and as you may know, aims to bring the mind into altered states of consciousness, is very dangerous. It opens you to demonic activity.

    I appreciate your rejection of the New Age and Emergent types of meditative prayer, but ironically you believe the very same thing they do. You say “meditation is bringing you closer to God.” They say, “meditation brings into the presence of God.” That’s absurd because their is only one thing that brings believers closer and into the presence of God and that is the Blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:19; Ephesians 2:13). To say that meditation (either biblical or mystical) brings you closer and into the presence of God is pure blasphemy and idolatry. Indeed, it is the blood of Christ and his blood alone that brings you into his presence so that you may pray (meditate). The Bible says that believers are IN Christ and that He is IN them. How much closer do you want to get?

    Godissupernatural wrote:

    Paul Washer will always be respected because he speaks the truth and people that know the word of God understand his message. If you know the WORD OF GOD you will never be lead astray. Sorry but I disagree with your article.

    I beg to differ. First of all, if you believe you will never be deceived because you know the WORD OF GOD, you are already deceived. Jesus never said: “Take heed that no man deceive you (Matthew 24:4), but don’t fret, if you know the WORD OF GOD no one will ever be able to deceive you.” The very fact that you believe Paul Washer speaks the truth, proves that you are not only deceived but heavily deceived. Paul’s Washer does NOT, I repeat does NOT preach the Gospel (Good News). He preaches another gospel that says Jesus only loves the elect and consequently only died for them. It is a lie of the devil and you say he speaks the truth? You must be kidding!

    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Isaiah 5:20)

  • Lo.

    Even if it is our duty to detect false doctrine, it should not become our activity. Our duty is to be careful about what we believe! We must detect false doctrine, but if it makes us bitter, or full of hatred, it is not a good thing. You see, we are very competent to transform what is good in something bad.
    Our first and most important duty is to love one another, in response to what Christ did. And he loved sinful people. Very sinful people, he died for false preachers to have eternal life, because he died for every one who believes in him. Isn’t that the good news?
    Who are we to judge the servant of another? Let God judge his servants and preachers. As for us, let’s follow him and not let his blood be shed in vain for us. Let us be like Christ who served his apostles even if they did not understand much. Everyone will be held accountable for his own words and deeds, so let these preachers be judged by God only, please… I cry for you to do so and be filled with Christ’s love, patience and hope.
    And let us remember that all the knowledge and truth we have has been given by God’s spirit, we have no credit for it. It all came by God’s grace and revelation and does not make us better than other people. We have discovered the truth, and that truth is Jesus. And if we have not yet understood everything, we should let Him teach us!
    May God’s grace be unto you all,
    Lo.

  • Lo,

    May I ask, did you address your comment to Paul of Tarsus who wrote:

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)

    Or maybe you addressed it to Jude who said:

    These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. (Jud 1:12-13)

    Hopefully you know that they were addressing false teachers, prophets and apostles. Would you say they were being judgmental? And Lo, you may not realize this but you are judging us by assuming that we are being judgmental.

    The following is real love.

    Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (Jas 5:20)

    But, then again, you wouldn’t agree because you have a strange idea of what real love is.

  • Lo wrote:

    And if we have not yet understood everything, we should let Him teach us!

    Nope, you should allow the Holy Spirit to be your teacher.

    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (Joh 16:13)

  • Robbie

    Lo. wrote:

    Even if it is our duty to detect false doctrine, it should not become our activity. Our duty is to be careful about what we believe! We must detect false doctrine, but if it makes us bitter, or full of hatred, it is not a good thing. You see, we are very competent to transform what is good in something bad.

    I was going to ask you to support your “opinion” Lo, but Thom nailed it.
    The majority would probably agree with you. Decades ago the majority believed the earth was flat, Lo and behold, they were wrong.

Leave a Reply

  

  

  

You can use these HTML tags

<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>